Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 May 2006 to 10 May 2006 (#2006-92) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 11/05/2006, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 15 messages totalling 966 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Orcs and inherent evil (7) 2. Claw (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Anyone do Red Steel?) (2) 3. Need help (5) 4. orcs and inherent evil ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:37:41 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Orcs and inherent evil I also eschew the notion of inherent and absolute evil from the =20 viewpoint of the DM. But as Fransesco said, the idea of pure evil can =20 function very well as a part of PC and NPC worldview, and can create =20 interesting moral conflicts in a campaign. I just wanted to point out something in the description of humanoids =20 in Gaz 10. In the DM book the "Immortal view" background of the =20 humanoids suggest that there is such a thing as Evil. The humanoids =20 and the preceeding Beastmen are said to be "reincarnated souls" of =20 evil beings. So humanoid life would be a punishment of sorts. This has always baffled me. There is no good vs. evil axis in the D&D =20 core rules. In AD&D 2ed, this "metaphysical morality" was a =20 functioning part of the game: spells would work in different ways =20 against different moralities etc. But in D&D there is only the simple =20 alignment system, which is more like "mundane morality": relationship =20 of the being towards society, personal relations etc. Mystara was written from this basis, and it emphasised this moral =20 constellation even more. Even the behaviour of the most "Evil" =20 Immortals is understood from their connection with Entropy (a much =20 more complex notion than some absolute morality) and their personal =20 sadistic, psychopathic etc. traits. One can very well regard them as =20 evil, as for example Thanatos acts against basically all life. But =20 evil isn't inherently in them, it is a matter of (very well founded) =20 perception. Thus, in AD&D Forgotten Realms, an orc or a drow might very well =20 consider him/herself to be Evil, to stand in the ranks of Evildom =20 against the Good. That is because Evil and Good are tangible =20 metaphysical forces. Whereas in mystara an orc wouldn't consider him/herself to be evil. As =20 has been stated in this discussion, orcs perceive themselves to be =20 fighting against the onslaught of humans and demihumans, or are =20 fighting over ancient grudges against enemy races (Rockhome dwarves =20 and orcs etc.), or are leading a traditional life of raiding very much =20 like the Ostlandians or the Ethangarians. (Remember that the =20 Ethengarian culture was adopted from humanoids!) So, Mystara is a "grey" world. Now, Gaz 10 drops a notion of Evil =20 Incarnate smack down in the middle of the blue. And what's more, this =20 metaphysical background is in direct conflict with the more symphatic =20 description of humanoids in the Player's book of the Gazetteer. Of course any DM can just ignore this strange nonsense. I did. But I =20 think that this is the sorriest chapter in the patchwork history of =20 Mystaran canon. On another note: Fransesco noted that orcs seem to be absolutely evil =20 in Tolkien's stories. I don't agree. The discussions between orcs in =20 LOTR, especially in Cirth Ungol, give a much more complicated picture =20 of them. And in general, there are very few unequivocally evil beings =20 in Tolkien: Sauron himself was a renegade maia who repented on one =20 occasion, and as "Annatar" perhaps even wanted to help rebuild =20 Middle-Earth (Tolkien's words). Gollum obviously isn't all bad. The =20 orcs are warped beings, whose life is full of torment, but they still =20 seem to have feeling of friendship and loyalty. Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:22:10 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Orcs and inherent evil Ville V Lahde wrote: > So, Mystara is a "grey" world. Now, Gaz 10 drops a notion of Evil > Incarnate smack down in the middle of the blue. And what's more, this > metaphysical background is in direct conflict with the more symphatic > description of humanoids in the Player's book of the Gazetteer. > Of course any DM can just ignore this strange nonsense. I did. But I > think that this is the sorriest chapter in the patchwork history of > Mystaran canon. Yeah me too have always ignored completely that thing, I think was there just for the sake of tradition, you know, orcs being traditionally "the enemy" in D&D and so on :-) but still Gaz10, as you said, it's a great argument for an humanoid-centered view of the game :-) And the map IS GREAT :-) BTW I agree that in Tolkien no one of the evil guys was born evil, it was only an example because in Lotr orcs are the typical evil troops, as in the Forgotten Realms and many others fantasy setting, while in Mystara, at least after Gaz10, they've always been much more "grey" and interesting: that's too is a fundamental characteristic of Mystara, I think, and a very good one! bye Francesco ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 08:35:11 -0700 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Claw (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Anyone do Red Steel?) So far what I've come up with is: Queen Catherine has allowed the church = to flourish for political correctness (see? She's so spiritual!) Unfortunat= ely give an inch and...This has blown up in her face. Now they are both = fighting over the citizenry of Bellayne. At first she didn't do anything = about the Holy Mother and her small Loyalist Guards, but now those guards = numbers have steadily increased. Of course the Holy Mother is her own = worst enemy. Although she encourages the populace to speak out against the = Nobility, she cows them with her secret police when they speak out against = the Church (Can you say hypocrite?). I'm just wondering what can Queen = Catherine do to hit back at the church, without being too heavy handed? = Any suggestions? Joe=20 Joe Kelly Office Services Clerk DAVIS & COMPANY LLP Suite 2800, Park Place 666 Burrard Street, Vancouver, B.C. V6C 2Z7 Phone 604.643.6365 >>> agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM 05/06/06 01:41am >>> > > I guess it depends how influent is The Mother church. If a minor sect, = it > could be outlawed and persecuted. If an major church, this could even = lead > to an "30 Years War" with the already established cults/Bellayne Church. = If > the Bellayne offitial church, Catherine would have to deal carefully = with > it, or trying to rule "together" with the church, or plotting against it = in > order to become the absolutist monarch of Bellayne. Just some ideas =3D) Also, if it is not already the major (only?) church, you need to define = where it comes from -- another Rakasta nation (e.g., Myoshima?) most = likely. If it's the major established church, then consider that Queen Catherine = is not nicknamed "The Lioness" just for her looks -- she will be trying to = promote secularization of the Bellaynish society in order to wrestle power = out of the hands of the priesthood. How overt she can be in her efforts depends on the power of the church. Bye, GP ________________________________________________________________________ SERVIZIO VOICE: TELEFONA e INVIA SMS dal tuo computer a tariffe vantaggiose= !=20 Scopri come telefonare e videochiamare gratis da pc a pc. http://voice.repubblica.it=20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. This e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and do not copy, use or disclose it. Please advise us if you do not want to receive unencrypted e-mails. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:20:49 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Claw (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Anyone do Red Steel?) Joe Kelly ha scritto: > So far what I've come up with is: Queen Catherine has allowed the church to flourish for political correctness (see? She's so spiritual!) Unfortunately give an inch and...This has blown up in her face. Now they are both fighting over the citizenry of Bellayne. At first she didn't do anything about the Holy Mother and her small Loyalist Guards, but now those guards numbers have steadily increased. Of course the Holy Mother is her own worst enemy. Although she encourages the populace to speak out against the Nobility, she cows them with her secret police when they speak out against the Church (Can you say hypocrite?). I'm just wondering what can Queen Catherine do to hit back at the church, without being too heavy handed? Any suggestions? When things have gone so far, there's little you can do without being heavy handed. Instigating (and then supporting) heresies would be a possible action, though assassination could also be attempted, if the cult's fortune is tied to its leader. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:12:58 -0700 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Orcs and inherent evil Ville, I don't think that Sauron's "repentence" was ever genuine. It was more an attempt to save his own skin than a genuine recognition of fault. Numenor owned. -Dan --- Ville V Lahde wrote: > I also eschew the notion of inherent and absolute > evil from the viewpoint of the DM. But as Fransesco said, the idea > of pure evil can function very well as a part of PC and NPC > worldview, and can create interesting moral conflicts in a campaign. > > I just wanted to point out something in the > description of humanoids in Gaz 10. In the DM book the "Immortal view" > background of the humanoids suggest that there is such a thing as > Evil. The humanoids and the preceeding Beastmen are said to be > "reincarnated souls" of evil beings. So humanoid life would be a punishment > of sorts. > > This has always baffled me. There is no good vs. > evil axis in the D&D core rules. In AD&D 2ed, this "metaphysical > morality" was a functioning part of the game: spells would work in > different ways against different moralities etc. But in D&D there > is only the simple alignment system, which is more like "mundane > morality": relationship of the being towards society, personal relations > etc. > > Mystara was written from this basis, and it > emphasised this moral constellation even more. Even the behaviour of the > most "Evil" Immortals is understood from their connection with > Entropy (a much more complex notion than some absolute morality) and > their personal sadistic, psychopathic etc. traits. One can very > well regard them as evil, as for example Thanatos acts against basically > all life. But evil isn't inherently in them, it is a matter of > (very well founded) perception. > > Thus, in AD&D Forgotten Realms, an orc or a drow > might very well consider him/herself to be Evil, to stand in the > ranks of Evildom against the Good. That is because Evil and Good are > tangible metaphysical forces. > Whereas in mystara an orc wouldn't consider > him/herself to be evil. As has been stated in this discussion, orcs perceive > themselves to be fighting against the onslaught of humans and > demihumans, or are fighting over ancient grudges against enemy races > (Rockhome dwarves and orcs etc.), or are leading a traditional life of > raiding very much like the Ostlandians or the Ethangarians. (Remember > that the Ethengarian culture was adopted from humanoids!) > > So, Mystara is a "grey" world. Now, Gaz 10 drops a > notion of Evil Incarnate smack down in the middle of the blue. And > what's more, this metaphysical background is in direct conflict with > the more symphatic description of humanoids in the Player's book of the > Gazetteer. > > Of course any DM can just ignore this strange > nonsense. I did. But I think that this is the sorriest chapter in the > patchwork history of Mystaran canon. > > On another note: Fransesco noted that orcs seem to > be absolutely evil in Tolkien's stories. I don't agree. The discussions > between orcs in LOTR, especially in Cirth Ungol, give a much more > complicated picture of them. And in general, there are very few > unequivocally evil beings in Tolkien: Sauron himself was a renegade maia who > repented on one occasion, and as "Annatar" perhaps even wanted to > help rebuild Middle-Earth (Tolkien's words). Gollum obviously > isn't all bad. The orcs are warped beings, whose life is full of > torment, but they still seem to have feeling of friendship and loyalty. > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 03:24:54 +0900 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Orcs and inherent evil Dan said: > Ville, I don't think that Sauron's "repentence" was ever genuine. It was more an attempt to save his own skin than a genuine recognition of fault. It's definitely up for debate. If I remember right, Sauron's repentance at the fall of Thangorodrim was such that he managed to convince the Valar - and possibly even himself, for a time. I think he was always destined to fall back to evil in the end, but nevertheless there were points where he could clearly have chosen to go back to the side of good. But like his old master before him he was so good at lying that it's hard to make a clear judgement. I seem to recall Tolkien mentioning in his description that it's possible Sauron did in fact reform, for a while at least. I'd have to check the Silmarillion to be sure, though. Thorf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 03:49:37 +0900 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Orcs and inherent evil I found the passage in question. It's from the first page of the "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" part of the Silmarillion: "When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not a first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eonwe to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwe. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eonwe departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong." In Middle-earth, I think a strong case could be made that almost all evil can be traced back to Melkor and his influence on the world - even after he has been exiled to the void. The orcs and such were specifically bred for evil work, and the orcs themselves were originally just corrupted elves. It's interesting how they dealt with this in the movies, with the orcs essentially being born full-grown. It certainly bypasses any problems of innocent orc babies and children. In any case, in regards to Mystara, I think it's not quite so simple as to say that there is no good-evil axis, just because OD&D didn't nominally have one. The simple fact is that often designers treated "lawful" as good and "chaotic" as evil; try to find a villain or an Entropic Immortal that is an alignment other than chaotic, and you will find that there simply aren't any. There is certainly good and evil in Mystara, but it is perhaps based on point of view more than absolute values. The best examples of this are the settings that deal with nominally "evil" creatures and cultures: GAZ3, GAZ10, and PC4. PC2 and to some extent PC1 also deal with these kinds of creatures. But actually the best example of all is the pair of GAZ5 and GAZ13. GAZ5 lists the shadow elves as "chaotic" (=evil), and strongly portrays them as the nasty bad guys. GAZ13 takes this idea and spins it around, portraying the "good" surface-world elves as aloof and uncaring, if not actually as evil villains. And the shadow elves are revealed to be anything but evil, when viewing things from their point of view. This is probably Mystara's strongest point: the consistent refusal to label one side, one nation, or even one race as "the good guys". Thorf PS - I'm really enjoying this discussion. I'm definitely one of those DM's who enjoys making his players think, and forcing them to accept counter-stereotypical characters to challenge their views. : - ) > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Thorfinn Tait > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 3:25 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Orcs and inherent evil > > Dan said: > > Ville, I don't think that Sauron's "repentence" was ever genuine. It > was more an attempt to save his own skin than a genuine recognition of > fault. > > It's definitely up for debate. If I remember right, Sauron's repentance at the fall of Thangorodrim was such that he managed to convince the Valar - and possibly even himself, for a time. I think he was always destined to fall back to evil in the end, but nevertheless there were points where he could clearly have chosen to go back to the side of good. But like his old master before him he was so good at lying that it's hard to make a clear judgement. > > I seem to recall Tolkien mentioning in his description that it's possible Sauron did in fact reform, for a while at least. I'd have to check the Silmarillion to be sure, though. > > Thorf > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:58:54 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Orcs and inherent evil As an additional point, please note that Karaash, the Immortal of Orcs, is NOT Entropic, rather he is of the Sphere of Thought. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thorfinn Tait" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Orcs and inherent evil > I found the passage in question. It's from the first page of the "Of the > Rings of Power and the Third Age" part of the Silmarillion: > > "When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair > hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all > his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not a first falsely done, but > that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the > fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was > not within the power of Eonwe to pardon those of his own order, and he > commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwe. > Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and > to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in > proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. > Therefore when Eonwe departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell > back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very > strong." > > In Middle-earth, I think a strong case could be made that almost all evil > can be traced back to Melkor and his influence on the world - even after he > has been exiled to the void. The orcs and such were specifically bred for > evil work, and the orcs themselves were originally just corrupted elves. > > It's interesting how they dealt with this in the movies, with the orcs > essentially being born full-grown. It certainly bypasses any problems of > innocent orc babies and children. > > In any case, in regards to Mystara, I think it's not quite so simple as to > say that there is no good-evil axis, just because OD&D didn't nominally have > one. The simple fact is that often designers treated "lawful" as good and > "chaotic" as evil; try to find a villain or an Entropic Immortal that is an > alignment other than chaotic, and you will find that there simply aren't > any. > > There is certainly good and evil in Mystara, but it is perhaps based on > point of view more than absolute values. The best examples of this are the > settings that deal with nominally "evil" creatures and cultures: GAZ3, > GAZ10, and PC4. PC2 and to some extent PC1 also deal with these kinds of > creatures. > > But actually the best example of all is the pair of GAZ5 and GAZ13. GAZ5 > lists the shadow elves as "chaotic" (=evil), and strongly portrays them as > the nasty bad guys. GAZ13 takes this idea and spins it around, portraying > the "good" surface-world elves as aloof and uncaring, if not actually as > evil villains. And the shadow elves are revealed to be anything but evil, > when viewing things from their point of view. > > This is probably Mystara's strongest point: the consistent refusal to label > one side, one nation, or even one race as "the good guys". > > Thorf > > PS - I'm really enjoying this discussion. I'm definitely one of those DM's > who enjoys making his players think, and forcing them to accept > counter-stereotypical characters to challenge their views. : - ) > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mystara RPG Discussion >> [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Thorfinn Tait >> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 3:25 AM >> To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >> Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Orcs and inherent evil >> >> Dan said: >> > Ville, I don't think that Sauron's "repentence" was ever >> genuine. It >> > was more an attempt to save his own skin than a genuine >> recognition of >> > fault. >> >> It's definitely up for debate. If I remember right, Sauron's >> repentance at the fall of Thangorodrim was such that he >> managed to convince the Valar - and possibly even himself, >> for a time. I think he was always destined to fall back to >> evil in the end, but nevertheless there were points where he >> could clearly have chosen to go back to the side of good. >> But like his old master before him he was so good at lying >> that it's hard to make a clear judgement. >> >> I seem to recall Tolkien mentioning in his description that >> it's possible Sauron did in fact reform, for a while at >> least. I'd have to check the Silmarillion to be sure, though. >> >> Thorf >> >> ******************************************************************** >> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, >> send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB >> MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. >> > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:36:56 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Need help Hi, all my DnD stuff was in a mess, so I took the time to organize everything. I noticed I am missing some stuff tough like the jacket for Top Ballista and a couple of Gaz. There is stuff I'm not sure about if I'm missing. I think not, but I would like some confirmation. What I am wondering is if the following Gaz : Ylaruam, Ierendi, Karameikos and Rockhome have 1 or 2 booklets... I'm pretty sure they just had one, but I would like to be sure to make sure I'm not missing more stuff than just the jackets... Thanks. -- Gilles Leblanc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:20:02 -0500 From: Daniel Subject: Re: Need help I believe the first 4-5 only had 1 booklet, so that sounds right. Gilles Leblanc wrote: Ylaruam, Ierendi, Karameikos and Rockhome have 1 or 2 booklets... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:32:45 -0700 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Need help I have the entire collection. I'll check at home and let you know tomorrow Joe Joe Kelly Office Services Clerk DAVIS & COMPANY LLP Suite 2800, Park Place 666 Burrard Street, Vancouver, B.C. V6C 2Z7 Phone 604.643.6365 >>> drake01@HOT.RR.COM 05/10/06 02:20pm >>> I believe the first 4-5 only had 1 booklet, so that sounds right. Gilles Leblanc wrote: Ylaruam, Ierendi, Karameikos and Rockhome have 1 or 2 booklets... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. This e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and do not copy, use or disclose it. Please advise us if you do not want to receive unencrypted e-mails. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:38:17 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Need help They all have only one book each, though Ierendi has a blue "pull-out" section in the center that could be taken out if you lift up the staples and remove it manually... James -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Gilles Leblanc Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:37 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Need help Hi, all my DnD stuff was in a mess, so I took the time to organize everything. I noticed I am missing some stuff tough like the jacket for Top Ballista and a couple of Gaz. There is stuff I'm not sure about if I'm missing. I think not, but I would like some confirmation. What I am wondering is if the following Gaz : Ylaruam, Ierendi, Karameikos and Rockhome have 1 or 2 booklets... I'm pretty sure they just had one, but I would like to be sure to make sure I'm not missing more stuff than just the jackets... Thanks. -- Gilles Leblanc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:40:46 -0500 From: Pat Taylor Subject: orcs and inherent evil I agree thinking and point of view is one of the wonderful aspects of Mystara. Even in our first campaigns the enemies were usually from a different viewpoint. Orcs defending home, finding food. Black Eagle believing he is destined to rule. Then the campaign in Skothar opened a new can of worms. Most of my characters were anti-Empire. Liking neither Thyatis or Alphatia. So i gathered four characters who would not fit in normally with high morals and constantly put them in situations to second guess themselves. There were always the "bad" guys, but they came with their own world view. Especially forcing the characters to face the unmoral way they sterotyped Alphatians was wonderful playing..... opps way off thead there.....Evil is always looking for a pawn, yet it so much fun to make it from a point of view for a high moral character. One thing about tolkiens orcs and trolls were they were originally elves and treants twisted in the depts of Melkors pits. So even when the elves where slaying orcs, they were actually slaying kin. and it ties to the fact that all can be tempted, even sauraman, one of the 5, by ultimate power to turn...... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 19:15:31 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Orcs and inherent evil I've never interpreted it as all humanoids are the reincarnated souls of evil humans, elves, dwarves and such; I always felt that the original Beastmen were such, and from time to time, others to be sure, but once established as a viable race, the souls of the newborn were, like that of any other race, created "from scratch" so to speak (from Limbo or a related place, IIRC from the Princess Ark tales). So the original Beastmen culture would have arisen from the veiled memories of these evil beings reborn as Beastmen, and thus, from the beginning, have an evil nature. But the subsequently born Beastmen would not, by their innate nature, be evil... they would be enculturated to evil, that being the way of their society learned at their mother's breast. With evil souls reincarnated from time to time into Beastmen, and later humanoids, this trend would be further reinforced, as a "failed society," such as the Beastmen would have, would be self-reinforcing on its own. And outside cultures, too, would reinforce the tendency toward evil, when the chaos of the humanoids' own society wasn't enough. Orcs and their ilk are not innately evil (save, perhaps, for those that are the reincarnated souls of evil beings), but their culture leads them to it. As for the alignment axis, D&D had simply the Ethical (view-toward-society) axis of Law vs. Good, which, in the later editions, was certainly not a pure Moral Good vs. Evil axis, witness the chaotic-if-good-hearted djinni and the lawful-but-evil hydrax. Originally, Law and Chaos were "alignments" not even of Ethical sort, but of a "supernaturally aligned group" sort, in the fashion found in Moorcock's writings. Later it became an Ethical axis, and later still the Moral Good vs. Evil axis was added in AD&D. James -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Ville V Lahde Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:38 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Orcs and inherent evil I also eschew the notion of inherent and absolute evil from the viewpoint of the DM. But as Fransesco said, the idea of pure evil can function very well as a part of PC and NPC worldview, and can create interesting moral conflicts in a campaign. I just wanted to point out something in the description of humanoids in Gaz 10. In the DM book the "Immortal view" background of the humanoids suggest that there is such a thing as Evil. The humanoids and the preceeding Beastmen are said to be "reincarnated souls" of evil beings. So humanoid life would be a punishment of sorts. This has always baffled me. There is no good vs. evil axis in the D&D core rules. In AD&D 2ed, this "metaphysical morality" was a functioning part of the game: spells would work in different ways against different moralities etc. But in D&D there is only the simple alignment system, which is more like "mundane morality": relationship of the being towards society, personal relations etc. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 22:36:19 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: Need help Ok thanks a lot :) On 5/10/06, Magister Mystaros wrote: > > They all have only one book each, though Ierendi has a blue "pull-out" > section in the center that could be taken out if you lift up the staples > and > remove it manually... > > James > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On > Behalf > Of Gilles Leblanc > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:37 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] Need help > > Hi, all my DnD stuff was in a mess, so I took the time to organize > everything. I noticed I am missing some stuff tough like the jacket for > Top > Ballista and a couple of Gaz. There is stuff I'm not sure about if I'm > missing. I think not, but I would like some confirmation. > > What I am wondering is if the following Gaz : > > Ylaruam, Ierendi, Karameikos and Rockhome have 1 or 2 booklets... > > I'm pretty sure they just had one, but I would like to be sure to make > sure > I'm not missing more stuff than just the jackets... > > Thanks. > > -- > Gilles Leblanc > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > --=20 Gilles Leblanc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 May 2006 to 10 May 2006 (#2006-92) **************************************************************