Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 May 2006 to 14 May 2006 (#2006-96) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 15/05/2006, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 3 messages totalling 233 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. orcs and inherent evil 2. Orcs and inherent evil 3. To play in Mystara ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 11:09:50 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: orcs and inherent evil to feed on the silmarils that he kept by himself...and then maybe on him...yet he aknowledged that she might be able to get the silmarils from him, which says a lot about the sheer power she got at the time... Thibault Sarlat Lorsque le bûcheron pénétra dans la forêt avec sa hache, les arbres se dirent : "Ne nous inquiétons pas, le manche est des notres". When the logger entered the forest with his axe, the trees thought "There is no worries to have, the handle is one of us" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Cherrington" To: Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:54 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] orcs and inherent evil Ungoliant was able to feed on the trees, and then she became more powerful than Morgoth. He feared her, and knew that she would thirst more and soon try to feed on him. Morgoth captured many elves and tortured them in his dungeons. He twisted them into the new forms of orcs in mockery of the first born. > Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:26:51 +0200> From: thibault-sarlat@WANADOO.FR> Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] orcs and inherent evil> To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> > I am not sure that ugoliant was part of the great music.> She seemed to me very unaligned with morgoth and only joined him to get what> she wanted.> It is also said that once she got the noldo jewels and the light of the> trees, she could have defeated Morgoth (since he it said he was afraid of> her and that she managed to flee him)> I mean it is possible also to assume that some other sprits did not> participate in the great music but yet entered Ea once it was created and> tried to take advantage of it.> > > Thibault Sarlat> > Lorsque le bûcheron pénétra dans la forêt avec sa hache, les arbres se> dirent : "Ne nous inquiétons pas, le manche est des notres".> > When the logger entered the forest with his axe, the trees thought "There is> no worries to have, the handle is one of us"> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Angelo Bertolli" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:29 AM> Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] orcs and inherent evil> > > > Thibault Sarlat wrote:> >> > >I am not sure about this but it is said elsewhere in Tolkien writings> that> > >the true origin of orcs and troll is not known even by the sages. Them> being> > >respectively twisted elves and treants is only one hypothesis.> > >What is sure is that their "creator" was Melkor but that since only> Iluvatar> > >had the power to instill life and full sentience, Melkor had to use> already> > >existing material and made his pawn in derision of Illuvatar children> > >(elves) and the treants. Yet this explanation can work with the first> > >hypothesis.> > >> > >> > I agree, it was probably Morgoth's doing. But not necessarily by> > creative means. These could be a race of, for example, elves that were> > seduced and chose to side with Morgoth early on.> >> > But some of Illuvatar's song must have been "evil" because there are> > other evil spirits that co-exist along side the Valar. For example,> > Ungoliant.> >> > ********************************************************************> > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp> > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com> > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.> >> > ********************************************************************> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. _________________________________________________________________ Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sweepstakes/mail/register.aspx ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 14:24:08 +0100 From: Mark Howard Subject: Re: Orcs and inherent evil I've always tended to view the humanoid species as, not so much evil, but pushed towards what from a human point of view would be a harsher and crueller existence, often on the most marginal of land, with soil and general environment to encourage permanent settlement and agriculture. Coupled with their more aggressive nature, this has led them to feel "put upon" by the rest of the world (ie those "effeminate humans and elves" etc), and their naturally lower intelligence and wisdom has led them to be more easily manipulated/exploited by evil beings. I wouldn't say they were generally good or evil, much the same way I wouldn't say most humans are good or evil (keep your head down, obey the rules and you won't get hurt), but they are more easily manipulated into certain actions due to their nature (IIRC Prince Jaggar (sp) was trying to do something like this to Thar). -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Magister Mystaros Sent: 11 May 2006 01:16 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Orcs and inherent evil I've never interpreted it as all humanoids are the reincarnated souls of evil humans, elves, dwarves and such; I always felt that the original Beastmen were such, and from time to time, others to be sure, but once established as a viable race, the souls of the newborn were, like that of any other race, created "from scratch" so to speak (from Limbo or a related place, IIRC from the Princess Ark tales). So the original Beastmen culture would have arisen from the veiled memories of these evil beings reborn as Beastmen, and thus, from the beginning, have an evil nature. But the subsequently born Beastmen would not, by their innate nature, be evil... they would be enculturated to evil, that being the way of their society learned at their mother's breast. With evil souls reincarnated from time to time into Beastmen, and later humanoids, this trend would be further reinforced, as a "failed society," such as the Beastmen would have, would be self-reinforcing on its own. And outside cultures, too, would reinforce the tendency toward evil, when the chaos of the humanoids' own society wasn't enough. Orcs and their ilk are not innately evil (save, perhaps, for those that are the reincarnated souls of evil beings), but their culture leads them to it. As for the alignment axis, D&D had simply the Ethical (view-toward-society) axis of Law vs. Good, which, in the later editions, was certainly not a pure Moral Good vs. Evil axis, witness the chaotic-if-good-hearted djinni and the lawful-but-evil hydrax. Originally, Law and Chaos were "alignments" not even of Ethical sort, but of a "supernaturally aligned group" sort, in the fashion found in Moorcock's writings. Later it became an Ethical axis, and later still the Moral Good vs. Evil axis was added in AD&D. James -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Ville V Lahde Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:38 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Orcs and inherent evil I also eschew the notion of inherent and absolute evil from the viewpoint of the DM. But as Fransesco said, the idea of pure evil can function very well as a part of PC and NPC worldview, and can create interesting moral conflicts in a campaign. I just wanted to point out something in the description of humanoids in Gaz 10. In the DM book the "Immortal view" background of the humanoids suggest that there is such a thing as Evil. The humanoids and the preceeding Beastmen are said to be "reincarnated souls" of evil beings. So humanoid life would be a punishment of sorts. This has always baffled me. There is no good vs. evil axis in the D&D core rules. In AD&D 2ed, this "metaphysical morality" was a functioning part of the game: spells would work in different ways against different moralities etc. But in D&D there is only the simple alignment system, which is more like "mundane morality": relationship of the being towards society, personal relations etc. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:31:18 -0700 From: Boonedale Subject: Re: To play in Mystara --- Angelo Bertolli wrote: > Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > On a side note, someone mentioned to me the usage > of OpenRPG. Does anyone know of free software that keep track of > character sheets in a nice way? > > Angelo PCGen dos a good job keeping track of characters. Its a free program by Code Monkey: http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/ "Happy Hunting!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 May 2006 to 14 May 2006 (#2006-96) ***************************************************************