Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 Apr 2007 to 10 Apr 2007 (#2007-40) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 11/04/2007, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 629 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Slightly OT: 300 is an OD&D movie (3) 2. Alphatian creed (7) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:01:42 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Slightly OT: 300 is an OD&D movie Watched the 300 yesterday. I don't want to get into the whole critique rigamarole here, this is not the place. But if one wants to enjoy pure surface, savour the aesthetics of violence and a lot of shouting (I mean really, really lot of it), this is the movie. Anyway, this was the first movie where I could really see the protagonists as OD&D characters. All the Spartans seem to have powerful cloaks of protection, shields and helmets. They don't need any body armour, as their AC is already well into the minus range. Also, they are all continuously Blessed and Hasted. Leonidas especially seems to do two Smash attacks every round, sometimes four against low-AC opponents (hits with 2 despite the -5 modifier). Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:13:36 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Slightly OT: 300 is an OD&D movie A great and fun movie! I love Frank Miller's work and was really waiting for this one. My problem with seeing this as an xD&D Movie is that the rules don't really do the spear and shield combo justice. A friend of mine suggested a simplified Reach rule compared to how it works in 3E. Instead of getting into the whole miniature thing, characters with Reach weapons gain a bonus to AC (say +2) since the point of using long weapons is to make it harder for the opponent to hit you. The bonus is ofcourse lost if the opponent also has a Reach weapon. OTOH, D&D does the cinematic violence part very well :) Havard --- Ville V Lahde skrev: > Watched the 300 yesterday. I don't want to get into > the whole critique > rigamarole here, this is not the place. But if one > wants to enjoy pure surface, > savour the aesthetics of violence and a lot of > shouting (I mean really, really lot of it), this is the movie. > > Anyway, this was the first movie where I could > really see the protagonists as OD&D characters. All the Spartans > seem to have powerful cloaks of protection, shields and helmets. > They don't need any body armour, as their AC is already well into > the minus range. Also, they are all continuously Blessed and Hasted. > Leonidas especially seems to do two Smash attacks every > round, sometimes four against low-AC opponents (hits with 2 despite the -5 > modifier). > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________ Alt i én. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notisblokk. http://no.mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:36:43 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Alphatian creed While preparing for a possible diplomatic negotiation between the PCs =20 and Alphatians in our campaign I started thinking how to portray their =20 culture. Up to now the PCs know very little of Alphatia proper, and what is =20 known is more hearsay and myth than reality. Two of the PCs have been =20 dealing with Alphatians in Norwold and Helskir, but always in =20 exceptional circumstances: a city just occupied, deals with Alphatian =20 secret agents etc. They have never run into Alphatians as a culture, =20 as a society. They of course know that Alphatia is a vast empire, they have heard =20 the legends about thousands of wizards (which they rightly surmise are =20 exaggerations), and they have run into Alphatian special spells, =20 mostly unknown in Known World. From time to time the PCs and the =20 players have asked the inevitable questions: How come they don't rule =20 the entire world? How can Thyatis stand against them? etc. etc. I =20 wanted to create a "feel" for Alphatia that would open their eyes to =20 the truly "alien" nature of the culture. (None of the players - to my =20 recollection - actually know that the Alphatians are offworlders.) The =20 following is an account by an Alphatian agent that I've written for =20 myself to be used as an inspiration for in-game discussions. This is =20 not meant to be an exact description of Alphatia, but a perception of =20 it. (The context is the Freiburg invasion mentioned in my previous mail.) "Thanks to you [PCs] we've learned of the coming war in this corner of =20 the world which you so quaintly call 'The Known World'. We have no =20 interest in it. We only need Freiburg for our operations in Isle of =20 Dawn, and you Brunians can handle your own affairs...You see, we can =20 wait, and Brun doesn't figure in our plans for a long time. It takes =20 time to shape lands to our liking...It is very important that you =20 understand this about us. We came to this world two thousand years =20 ago, and we were then already as you see us now. We don't change, we =20 change the world. Upon our landfall we found a world of chaos and =20 barbarism upon which only we could bring the light of reason. Forging barbarians into civilisation is a patient process, not a =20 simple matter of conversion or conquest as the Thyatians seem to =20 think. You cannot build a culture out of mercenaries and slaves, you =20 must build a world in which people can become civilised - become =20 Alphatians. In Alphatia proper nobody starves, nobody lacks a roof =20 over their heads or a vocation to give their life direction. Alphatia =20 is a paradise. Building a paradise requires resources, however. It needs an outside. =20 We need Norwold, Quodhar, Isle of Dawn (or Sunset, depending of whom =20 one asks) and our holdings in Skothar. But one by one each of them =20 shall be incorporated into Alphatia proper and shown what paradise =20 magic and reason can bring. In the meantime one needs the stick and =20 the carrot. If someone rebels, he or she will be put down. If people =20 conform, we will rid their cities of crime and offer them the =20 possibility of trade and education. It will take generations, but =20 people can see the promise for their childrens' children. We know that Alphatian Order can survive even across the void, that =20 many worlds can live in unison. We know that in the end the need for =20 an outside is eliminated, when every corner of a world has been made =20 into paradise. Once we did so, and so we shall do again. Reagrdless of =20 race and colour, some day all of Mystara will live in paradise. But for now, slaughter each other in Brun if you must. We have other =20 things to do. One day Alphatia will turn its eye on your lands, and =20 then your long climb to light begins." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:07:39 +0200 From: Matteo Subject: Re: Slightly OT: 300 is an OD&D movie > Anyway, this was the first movie where I could really see the protagonists as OD&D characters. All the Spartans seem to have powerful cloaks of protection, shields and helmets. They don't need any body armour, as their AC is already well into the minus range. Also, they are all continuously Blessed and Hasted. Leonidas especially seems to do two Smash attacks every round, sometimes four against low-AC opponents (hits with 2 despite the -5 modifier). > > Ville Actually... to me it looks like Leonidas is a D&D 3E character with the (notoriously unbalanced) Supreme Cleave feat! :D Matteo ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:10:18 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Alphatian creed I love how you've depicted the Alphatian mentality. It's very similar to the Victorian Middle Class of urban North America in the 19th C. - in that both the Alphatians are, and Victorians were, committed to the charitable act of forging paradise on Earth (or Mystara as it may be.) It doesn't matter what the primitives themselves want - just uplift them from their squalor and bring them into paradise. In particular I enjoy the timeless, inevitability of their conviction. Do you imagine this part of the common culture or just that of the ruling class? > Up to now the PCs know very little of Alphatia proper, and what is > known is more hearsay and myth than reality. Two of the PCs have been > dealing with Alphatians in Norwold and Helskir, but always in > exceptional circumstances: a city just occupied, deals with Alphatian > secret agents etc. They have never run into Alphatians as a culture, > as a society. > > They of course know that Alphatia is a vast empire, they have heard > the legends about thousands of wizards (which they rightly surmise are > exaggerations), and they have run into Alphatian special spells, > mostly unknown in Known World. From time to time the PCs and the > players have asked the inevitable questions: How come they don't rule > the entire world? How can Thyatis stand against them? etc. etc. I > wanted to create a "feel" for Alphatia that would open their eyes to > the truly "alien" nature of the culture. (None of the players - to my > recollection - actually know that the Alphatians are offworlders.) The > following is an account by an Alphatian agent that I've written for > myself to be used as an inspiration for in-game discussions. This is > not meant to be an exact description of Alphatia, but a perception of > it. > > (The context is the Freiburg invasion mentioned in my previous mail.) > > "Thanks to you [PCs] we've learned of the coming war in this corner of > the world which you so quaintly call 'The Known World'. We have no > interest in it. We only need Freiburg for our operations in Isle of > Dawn, and you Brunians can handle your own affairs...You see, we can > wait, and Brun doesn't figure in our plans for a long time. It takes > time to shape lands to our liking...It is very important that you > understand this about us. We came to this world two thousand years > ago, and we were then already as you see us now. We don't change, we > change the world. Upon our landfall we found a world of chaos and > barbarism upon which only we could bring the light of reason. > > Forging barbarians into civilisation is a patient process, not a > simple matter of conversion or conquest as the Thyatians seem to > think. You cannot build a culture out of mercenaries and slaves, you > must build a world in which people can become civilised - become > Alphatians. In Alphatia proper nobody starves, nobody lacks a roof > over their heads or a vocation to give their life direction. Alphatia > is a paradise. > > Building a paradise requires resources, however. It needs an outside. > We need Norwold, Quodhar, Isle of Dawn (or Sunset, depending of whom > one asks) and our holdings in Skothar. But one by one each of them > shall be incorporated into Alphatia proper and shown what paradise > magic and reason can bring. In the meantime one needs the stick and > the carrot. If someone rebels, he or she will be put down. If people > conform, we will rid their cities of crime and offer them the > possibility of trade and education. It will take generations, but > people can see the promise for their childrens' children. > > We know that Alphatian Order can survive even across the void, that > many worlds can live in unison. We know that in the end the need for > an outside is eliminated, when every corner of a world has been made > into paradise. Once we did so, and so we shall do again. Reagrdless of > race and colour, some day all of Mystara will live in paradise. > > But for now, slaughter each other in Brun if you must. We have other > things to do. One day Alphatia will turn its eye on your lands, and > then your long climb to light begins." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:22:43 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Alphatian creed Steven Carter wrote: "I love how you've depicted the Alphatian mentality. It's very similar to the Victorian Middle Class of urban North America in the 19th C. - in that both the Alphatians are, and Victorians were, committed to the charitable act of forging paradise on Earth (or Mystara as it may be.) It doesn't matter what the primitives themselves want - just uplift them from their squalor and bring them into paradise. In particular I enjoy the timeless, inevitability of their conviction. Do you imagine this part of the common culture or just that of the ruling class?" Yup, it was a tumbleweed of the "beneficient" colonialist beliefs, some liberalist market theorists, a touch of speculative communism, a tad of messianism, a whiff of manifest destiny and American dream. Have to break some eggs to make a good omelet, some sacrifices are needed for the greater good etc. I think such convictions would be the strongest in cadres of =20 longliving wizards - noble families and scholarly schools - who have a =20 fairly accurate if coloured view of Alphatian history and strong politico-theological convictions. But I picture versions of this being used as propaganda tools o= r educational tracts (depending on how one looks at it). For example, the idea about eliminating crime is in our campaign an important part of Alphatian colonialism. They eliminate certain tangible problems from =20 the fringe colonies in order to win over the populace. After that it =20 is much easier to fullen out the much-needed resources to the colonial centres. I don't want to establigh any solid truth about Alphatia in our =20 campaign. The PCs aren't likely ever to travel there - the campaign =20 centres on Known World. I just want to pose this as an intellectual =20 and moral challenge for them. In the end it is up to the pleyers to establish ther own truth about =20 Alphatia, especially how their PCs perceive it. Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:38:12 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Alphatian creed When you mentioned colonialism I'm also reminded of the Jesuit missions. Saving 'les sauvages' from sin. How does this figure into the highest echelons of the royalty? I always picture the wizard-kings as being very independent and not much for cooperating with one another even if they all share a vision of what the new world should be transformed. On 10/04/07, Ville V Lahde wrote: > > Yup, it was a tumbleweed of the "beneficient" colonialist beliefs, some > liberalist market theorists, a touch of speculative communism, a tad of > messianism, a whiff of manifest destiny and American dream. Have to break > some eggs to make a good omelet, some sacrifices are needed for the greater > good etc. > > I think such convictions would be the strongest in cadres of > longliving wizards - noble families and scholarly schools - who have a > fairly accurate > if coloured view of Alphatian history and strong politico-theological > convictions. But I picture versions of this being used as propaganda tools or > educational tracts (depending on how one looks at it). For example, the > idea about eliminating crime is in our campaign an important part of > Alphatian colonialism. They eliminate certain tangible problems from > the fringe colonies in order to win over the populace. After that it > is much easier to > fullen out the much-needed resources to the colonial centres. > > I don't want to establigh any solid truth about Alphatia in our > campaign. The PCs aren't likely ever to travel there - the campaign > centres on Known World. I just want to pose this as an intellectual > and moral challenge for them. > > In the end it is up to the pleyers to establish ther own truth about > Alphatia, especially how their PCs perceive it. > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:47:16 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Alphatian creed Indeed, Alphatia is certainly not a fully coherent empire. Many nobles are very independent and have "lost sight" with the vision of Alphatia, either through immersion in magical research and affairs of other realms of reality, extensive use of zzonga, or just the everyday reality of trade, diplomacy, courtly competition etc. But then there are the diplomatic services, secret services, the Empress, perhaps some eccelestial elements, and the previously mentioned political cadres. They keep up the colonial program, even though there sometimes are other pushes and pulls from the noble ranks. For example, in our campaign the invasions of Thyatis were not actually forced military decisions rather than results of emotional lobbying which diverted the Empire from its customary line. If you have read Iain M. Banks, perhaps his "Culture" is a good analogy? Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:51:19 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Alphatian creed Oh, if only I had the time to read the Culture books. Feersum, Phlebus and Weapons sitting in a file box waiting for their day. Should have bought e-texts for my Palm instead of dead tree edition. 'Cept books feel so good. ;) Do you include an upper-middle class of mercantilists with moderate magical skill as well as trading skills? Perhaps those where overriding ambition makes addiction and academic matters trivial to their mindset. Sort of arcane capitalists that would fit in well with Darokin except Darokinians are the competition? On 10/04/07, Ville V Lahde wrote: > Indeed, Alphatia is certainly not a fully coherent empire. Many nobles are > very independent and have "lost sight" with the vision of Alphatia, > either through immersion in magical research and affairs of other > realms of reality, extensive use of zzonga, or just the everyday > reality of trade, diplomacy, courtly competition etc. > > But then there are the diplomatic services, secret services, the > Empress, perhaps some eccelestial elements, and the previously > mentioned political cadres. They keep up the colonial program, even > though there sometimes are other pushes and pulls from the noble > ranks. For example, in our campaign the invasions of Thyatis were not > actually forced military decisions rather than results of emotional > lobbying which diverted the Empire from its customary line. > > If you have read Iain M. Banks, perhaps his "Culture" is a good analogy? > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:52:21 -0700 From: Anthony Edwards Subject: Re: Alphatian creed Don't underestimate your players. When Alphatia keeps spouting about how they eliminate poverty and crime, the characters may travel to Alphatian Cities and see that indeed there IS poverty and crime even in cities such as Sundsvall and use it as a viable means to discredit Alphatian propaganda... A magical item that allows you to record by simple illusionary images would work easily enough. Don't count out ingenuity... Even the smartest DM can outsmart one or two players; but a table full will eventually come up with things you can't even imagine I've found! --- Ville V Lahde wrote: > Steven Carter wrote: > > "I love how you've depicted the Alphatian mentality. > It's very similar > to the Victorian Middle Class of urban North America > in the 19th C. - > in that both the Alphatians are, and Victorians > were, committed to the > charitable act of forging paradise on Earth (or > Mystara as it may be.) > It doesn't matter what the primitives themselves > want - just uplift > them from their squalor and bring them into > paradise. In particular I > enjoy the timeless, inevitability of their > conviction. Do you imagine > this part of the common culture or just that of the > ruling class?" > > Yup, it was a tumbleweed of the "beneficient" > colonialist beliefs, some > liberalist market theorists, a touch of speculative > communism, a tad of > messianism, a whiff of manifest destiny and American > dream. Have to break > some eggs to make a good omelet, some sacrifices are > needed for the greater > good etc. > > I think such convictions would be the strongest in > cadres of longliving wizards - noble families and scholarly > schools - who have a fairly accurate > if coloured view of Alphatian history and strong > politico-theological > convictions. But I picture versions of this being > used as propaganda tools or > educational tracts (depending on how one looks at > it). For example, the > idea about eliminating crime is in our campaign an > important part of > Alphatian colonialism. They eliminate certain > tangible problems from the fringe colonies in order to win over the > populace. After that it is much easier to > fullen out the much-needed resources to the colonial > centres. > > I don't want to establigh any solid truth about > Alphatia in our campaign. The PCs aren't likely ever to travel there > - the campaign centres on Known World. I just want to pose this as > an intellectual and moral challenge for them. > > In the end it is up to the pleyers to establish ther > own truth about Alphatia, especially how their PCs perceive it. > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 Apr 2007 to 10 Apr 2007 (#2007-40) **************************************************************