Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 21 Jan 2008 to 22 Jan 2008 (#2008-10) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 23/01/2008, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 739 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. coinage and GP's Specularuam Trade Guilds (4) 2. Mystaran Numismatics - Karameikos (4) 3. Ethereal creatures ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:18:53 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: coinage and GP's Specularuam Trade Guilds argh! seems my formatting is still not coming through correctly. I've chan= ged some settings, see if this one registers my carriage returns. reply to Giampaolo Agosta: >> oh shoots, I completely missed about the 'Thadder Crona. I don't have >> much information on the guilds, is there any canon info on their crona? >> We need some back story/reason for both Karameikos (or earlier Traladara >> if the Crona indeed predates the Thyatians) to have a silver Crona and >> the Guilds to have a gold Crona. Likely either some common "ancestor" >> denomination of both, or one is an imitation of the other (which raises >> the question, which came first?). I never did develop nor even >> understand the guilds monetary system, my only initial thoughts were that >> the various things (Quert, Byd, etc) were weight units and thus you can >> have both copper Querts and silver Querts, and both silver Byds and >> electrum Byds, but as I said I never developed it much.=20 > I'll have to check the sources, but I doubt there will be much on the > origin of these names. However, your idea is good. ok, unless something turns up in cannon how's this for the two cronas- Th= e Marlinev krona/koruna/krone(r) (which ever) came first, with the back sto= ry and symbolism I gave previously. While the name of the denomination cau= ght on throughout Traladara, the symbolism did not. Meanwhile in the islan= ds both the denomination and the symbolism caught on and they eventually es= tablised the crona (or however it was spelled/pronounced at the time) as th= e capstone of their weight systems and thus a gold coin. The only issue I = am not sure on is the following: would there have been the same Thyatian li= nguistinc influence in the islands to cause the same k -> c consonant shift= as happened in Karameikos? I don't know enough about Minrothad and its hi= story to answer that. >> good points all, so these guilders/guilden/florins should indeed have a >> fixed rate depending on whatever their fineness/weight is. I have not >> yet got into setting details for coin weights/fineness etc., just as a >> working standard I adopted Christopher Cherringtons idea that a typical >> coin is 1/60 of a pound and for now have set things based relative to >> that working standard. > 1/60 is very realistic, AFAIK. It is circa the weight of a roman > aureus. However, copper coins were usually heavier (and much larger). I did some quick looking, I think 1/60th to a pound works out to about 96 g= rains gross or about 1/5 of a ounce troy - about an american quarter size/w= eight coin in silver (if you want another country for comparison let me kno= w and I'll see if I can find some info - ie for euro's I believe that works= out to something between a 50 cent and 1 euro coin). As for copper coins (at least non-subsidiary coins) being heavier thats bec= ause in the RW history gold and silver were viewed as significantly more va= luable than copper whereas in the D&D economy the metals are set at much cl= oser value (1:10:100 for Gold:Silver:Copper in most xD&D systems), or as I = have it in my system - 1:20:200 (this is a topic I discuss at more length i= n the intro to my document). >> the legitimate half-Kopecs I have as copper, as for the alloy of the >> counterfeits- I never thought about it.... probably brass or tin. > That's important, because the alloy must be less valuable than the pure me= tal. > It's likely not the case for brass. yeah, the more I think about it the more and more I like the idea of a lot = of the counterfeits being old restamped Thyatian Aes (which I have as an ol= d small denomination coin viewed as so debased and so worthless it has larg= ely been phased out in Thyatis, still used only in the most rural and poor = of areas. > Note that metals are generally valued for their resistance to chemical > agents and rarity, especially for treasuring and coinage. Thus, while > there may be differences in alloys (e.g., using brass or bronze > instead of copper), any other difference would be relatively minor -- > e.g., the dwarves may consider platinum worth as gold, but hardly > less. yes, but rarity of the metals is really the big issue, and is one of the ma= in reasons the D&D economy is skewered from the historical one (a topic I a= ddress in the intro of my document) and the ratios change over geography an= d time. I read somewhere (I think it was the dragonlord chronicles) about = the dwarves having so much platinum that they use it as a building material= in their temple walls? Hence its not 'rare' to them but common. Plus we = are not dealing with humans here. PS slightly offtopic- I've also houserule= d that Platinum has some mysterious slight anti-magic properties, something= that the glantrians spent a long time trying to understand in the hopes th= at it would reveal some deep secret of magic, but all that ever came of it = was the impetius for the glantrian platinum Crown coin (which is so heavily= alloyed that really they 'cheated' rather than actually over-came its anti= -magic properties). Oops, there's yet another crown/crona/krone/etc. Its = a much later creation though so we can just say that it has no connection t= o the krona/koruna/krone(r)/crona, (or that the name came with the Boldavia= ns to the highlands). >> coins. What about Ludwig von Hendricks? Perhaps Ludwig never bothers >> with coin making. > Or maybe he does -- he likes having his portrait shown everywhere. > However, Black Eagle coins only circulate among the mercenaries that > serve the Baron. hmm, perhaps then Ludwig should get the "testone" based coins and Kelvin mi= nts something else based on a more traditional Thyatian denomination. Perh= aps kelven occasionally produces a few obolos theoretically equal to a half= -kopec and that they turn up in karameikan currency from time to time like = the way you'll notice a pence coin from the channel islands occasionally sh= ows up in british circulating coinage (I think it happens, right? any Brit= s on here who can confirm this?). But as is par for course in the thyatian= traditional coinage system it is not actually "to specs" and on a metal-to= -metal content is actually only worth say 5/11th or 5/12th of a kopec, but = most people never even notice, and it is produced in small enough quantitie= s to not become an issue ("no it was good, this particular one is just old = and has gotten worn from circulation and the changing of hands over the yea= rs your lordship"). Adventure hook idea- perhaps after defeating some goblins who fight alongsi= de/with trained dogs, the adventurers are perplexed because the goblins hav= e no identifying symbol nor battle standard, but they do find a bagfull of = these "testones" on the bodies with the big portraits of baron von Hendrick= s on the coins, this being the adventurers first suggestion of a link betwe= en the black eagle and humanoids [it was a Nightseeker party looking for es= caped slaves]. Of course I don't think "testone" would be the name of the denomination mor= e the style of the coin. The denomination might be say a third (1/3) of a = kopec. Or keep it simple and have it be a half-kopec. ?? >> I think that is all the barons in AC 1000-1004 right? > There's Vorloi and Halaran as well. However, Halaran has the main > state mint in his domain, so he probably doesn't need extra coins, and > Vorloi monopolizes trade in his own domain, and is based so near > Specularum. So Ludwig and Kelvin are the most likely choices. Vorloi.... yeah, I can't see him desiring his own coinage. Seems like he w= ould be content utilizing karameikan/Thyatian or foreign coinage. >> yes, shaving coins was historically a big issue, hence why so many modern >> coins have milling or reeding or even words on the edges. I would think >> coin milling technology would be beyond Mystaran technology, what does >> everyone else think? > Unlikely to be within the technological means of the human nations. > Magic is sometimes used (e.g., in Glantri) hmm... using magic to assist in coin production.... That sounds like Alpha= tian style magic to me. perhaps milled edge coins would be gnomish, while = coins with words or intricate patterns are Alphatian. If I can ever figure= out the difference between milling, reeding, and graining, maybe I could m= ake one them a Glantrian specialty. >> Or perhaps that could be a trademark of Gnomish >> coins since it seems like they would have the technology. > That's a good idea. After having done some quick reading on the subject of milling (There is ac= tually more to the history of it than I would of thought - 3 pages in Macka= ys guide alone!) milling came about in the 1500s, becoming widspread throug= out Europe by the mid 1600s (the last major hold-out being Holland, which p= roduced hammered coins as late as 1670). Reply to dos Santos: > IIRC, the city-state Korun is also a gold coin. It's possible that the > karameikan Crona was changed to a silver coin in order to have a gold Royal > (and thus put the new karameikan order above the old traladaran ways; the > same probably is true for the platinum city-state Halavs and karameikan > electrum Halavs). ooh... whats the source for this? Beyond Slagovich I didn't have any info = on City State coinage. hmm... now we've got 2 gold and 1 silver coins so t= he original denomination was probably originally gold. and I like your ide= a of subjugating the traladaran system. reply to Giampaolo Agosta's second message: >> IIRC, the city-state Korun is also a gold coin. It's possible that the >> karameikan Crona was changed to a silver coin in order to have a gold Ro= y=3D al >> (and thus put the new karameikan order above the old traladaran ways; the >> same probably is true for the platinum city-state Halavs and karameikan >> electrum Halavs). > Or, maybe, the Crona had lost so much value that it contained already > more silver than gold and/or was under the standard weight. yes, that type of thing happened in several RW historical examples. I think I'm close to a final version now, thanks to both your inputs. Let = me chew it over for a few minutes, type it up fully then I'll treat everyon= e to the full Karameikos entry from my draft Mystaran Numismatics guide. Greg Weatherup GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@email.com http://members.fortunecity.com/gecko_g/ --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:12:07 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Mystaran Numismatics - Karameikos ok, here is the first public draft of the entry for Karameikos from my numi= smatics guide. I hope my formatting is coming through correctly. I should mention that Karameikos has now become the largest entry in my doc= ument, by a good margin. I should also mention again, if I didn't already,= that this builds upon the previous works of Christopher Cherrington & Jesp= er Andersen (are either of you two here?) and is for the AC 1000-1004 time = frame. It is intended as a source of fluff and guideline for DMs to flesh = out the coins. Karameikos:=20=20 Description/Notes/overview: As part of the Thyatian Empire, the Thyatian I= mperial Standard is used alongside the traditional traladaran domestic syst= em. The Thyatian lords had previously attempted to introduce the tradition= al thyatian domestic system, but it never caught on (however the Baron of K= elvin does occasionally issue obolos =96 see below). Largely a Barter and = agricultural economy, the usage of coins is growing rapidly, especially in = the towns. Karameikos produces a Silver Crona based on the Thyatian Asteri= us in a de facto adherence to the Tendrius agreement. The mints at Highfor= ge & Threshold also produce a Copper coin based on the Thyatian Denarius, t= he Kopec, but it is not yet in large quantities in circulation, more common= is a copper Half-Kopec coin (1/2 cp). It should be noted that the Highfor= ge mint is not under ducal authority but that much outsourcing of the duchi= es currency needs results in large numbers of coins produced by the gnomes = and dwarves of Highforge. Many of the coins produced at Highforge can be i= dentified by their milled edges.=20=20 Small denomination bronze coins: At the base of the monetary system is a sm= all token or coin which I=92ll call a =93Bit=94. In the Thyatian language = this would be =93Brass=94 and they look down on it as a worthless and backw= ard coin, like a poor imitation of their Aes (see Thyatis), they might even= call it Aes in their language. However, in the Traladaran language it is = called a =93Bronze=94 and the native Traladarans make a point of utilizing = it (after all, the secret of Bronze making was taught to Halav and the Tral= adarans by the Guardian Immortals so long ago). The Standard =93Bit=94 is = worth a quarter of a Kopec (0.25 cp) though some are found in other values = (i.e. two bits being equivalent of a half-kopec). While there is no govern= ment control over this coin the value is so small that it is usually not wo= rth a counterfeiter=92s effort. Design note: I started out using =93Bit=94= as a placeholder till I could come up with a more proper name, but have si= nce come to prefer =93Bit=94. Copper Coins: To help weaken the moneychanger=92s guild, they were stripped= of their right to mint copper coins at the time of the conquest. The Thya= tians had hoped that their traditional currency systems would come to repla= ce the native Traladaran ones, but the Traditional currency system never re= ally caught on and the imperial standard coins are always in short supply. = When the shortage of copper coins became acute, and the Thyatians realized= this was only increasing the usage of the =93Bits=94, they established a m= int at Threshold to produce Copper Kopecs and started putting in orders at = the Highforge mint for kopecs. In addition to the Kopec, the half-Kopec de= nomination was widely produced in the hopes of driving out the old =93bits= =94. While the half-Kopec has become a widely used denomination, it has no= t driven the =93bit=94 system out. Many of the whole Kopec denominated coi= ns that do get produced end up getting cut up or broken to make the equival= ents of half, quarter, etc. Kopecs, much to the dismay of the mint official= s. Much counterfeiting of the half-Kopec takes place, but given a relative= scarcity of coins, such counterfeits are usually accepted at face value ou= t of necessity. (RW inspiration for this: counterfeit copper coins in the A= merican Colonies due to a scarcity of coins shipped over from Britain). Ma= ny of these counterfeits are restamped Aes (see Thyatis). I don=92t think = this is due to any active work by either the Veiled Society nor the Kingdom= of Thieves, but is more small-time operations, or even merchants making to= kens out of economic necessity, etc. (though perhaps the VS & KoT do some s= mall scale counterfeiting of coppers or bits as a small sideline =96 advent= ure idea: at some point in the future one or the other of the two decide to= start counterfeiting silver or gold coins and the adventurers must uncover= the culprits). The Kopec series usually depict flora and fauna from the d= uchy=92s wilds, the whole Kopec featuring a wolf (per K:KoA). A Kopec is w= orth 1cp (thus a half-kopec is 0.5cp, and etc.) The =93Crowns=94: The =93Crown=94, in one form or another, has been a denom= ination in Traladara for centuries. The Crona, better known in previous er= as as the Krona (in the central coast area around Marlinenev), Koruna* (in = the Darokinian influenced North-East), and Krone* (plural Kroner, in the gr= eater Halag area), has long been produced at high quality/high standards, o= n the authority of the monechangers guild in Specularuam. Originally it wa= s a very small, fine hexagonal shaped gold coin. The =93Crown=94 and the a= uthority it represents was chosen for a coinage standard by the oligarchs o= f the City state since the authority would figuratively be =93in the hands = of the oligarchs=94 since only the wealthy oligarchs could afford to use a = gold coin. Throughout Traladara this =93crown=94 was adopted as a standard= coin/shape/denomination but the symbolism was lost and a depiction represe= nting King Halav soon became the norm, even back within Marlinev. This was = also taken to the city-states, other than Slagovich (See Slagovich), where = it became the modern Korun (See City States). Meanwhile the gold denominat= ion had also spread to what would become the Minrothad Guilds, with the sym= bolism intact but under the name of Crona, which they established as the ca= pstone of their weight based currency system (see Minrothad Guilds). When = the Thyatians came into Traladara they not only imported their currency sys= tem to operate alongside the Traladaran one, they also established the gold= smiths guild with the 902 AC decree. After 902 the moneychangers guild sti= ll had a monopoly on the minting of =93crowns=94 (Krona/Koruna/Krone{r}) bu= t they were not permitted to mint gold coins, so they adopted the current c= oin, in silver, round, and larger than the old gold krona/koruna/krone(r), = it took some time but eventually this coin came to be produced to that of t= he tendrius standard, thus Karameikos is de-facto on the Tendrius Standard.= The Thyatians were happy to see their new currency order (both the imperi= al thyatian denominations and the Guilden/Guilders) supplanted above the ol= d traladaran ways. To reflect that it was not exactly equal in value to th= e old gold coins, and to reflect the changing of pronunciations over the ce= nturies, the moneychangers guild christened this new coin the =93Crona=94 (= ironically equal to the Minrothad version of the name). Many of the older = hexagonal shaped gold coins depicting king Halav are still in circulation o= utside of the capital (usually at 5sp in value though even rarer coins of m= ultiple kroner/Koruna are occasionally encountered) but the older ones in M= arlinev/Specularuam have largely been melted and re-used over the span of t= he last century by the goldsmiths guild. The silver crona usually features= buildings and landmarks on them. *=3Dthe assignment of Koruna and Krone(r) to the respective dialects of old= traladaran can easily be swapped, if this would seem to better match. Gold Coins: The Duke would eventually like to produce a Gold coin at Thresh= old, but none exist yet. Eventually (at or following Karameikan independen= ce) the mint will start producing a gold coin, the Royal, a hexagonal shape= d coin. It will be produced exclusively in Threshold to avoid the monopoly= granted within Specularuam to the goldsmiths guild. For now the goldsmith= s guild occasionally produces coins valued in various =93guilden=92s=94 (in= the Dwarvish language =96 see Buhrohur, and perhaps in the Hattian dialect= of Thyatian as well, though I am unsure of this last bit) or =93Guilders= =94 (in standard Thyatian) or =93Florins=94 (in Traladaran and perhaps in K= erendan &/or Ispan dialects of Thyatian =96 see Vyalia), and while these co= ins have no official legal tender status, given that the goldsmiths guild i= s dominated by dwarven craftsmen, they are usually of very fine craftsmansh= ip and quality so are widely accepted, (The exact value is left up to indiv= idual DM=92s). However the local economy of Specularuam is currently too s= mall to produce much excess gold, and most of what gold there is gets made = into jewelry and such by the guild. Some of the smaller 1 fl. Coins circul= ate within Specularuam, while most of the larger ones (i.e. 10 fl.) end up = being exported. Also see Thyatian Imperial Standard coins, which are found circulating with= in Karameikos as well. Other Coins: The barons appointed by Karameikos have the same rights regard= ing currency as a Thyatian Imperial lord (see Traditional Thyatian system),= and thus can produce small denomination brass, bronze, or lesser alloy coi= ns, but of the Barons only two currently exercise this right =96 von Hendri= cks and Kelvin. Baron Vorloi, due to his knowledge of mercantilism knows t= hat any issue he could produce would be unnecessary and possibly hurtful to= the economy given the current economic situation. Threshold is site of th= e main ducal mint and that mint is too busy producing coins of the realm, t= hough the patriarch occasionally has a religious medal or two produced. Ke= lvin occasionally employs a few craftsmen to produce obolus coins, a rare d= enomination even within the Thyatian system, chosen because it is the close= st equivalent to the half-kopec in value.=20=20 Domestic exceptions- Highforge & the Elves. The independent enclave of Hig= hforge is as of yet undeveloped for purposes of this document. Amongst the= elves the Vyalia likely continue to reckon in terms of silver Florins (as = a unit of account), and the Calarii like wise have a unit of account in ter= ms of their traditional (silver Shilling?) which it should be noted has nev= er been an actual coin. For the Calarii unit, the exact value is left up t= o the needs of individual DM=92s, but it is recommended that it be of simil= ar value to both the Vyalia Florin (see Vyalia) and the Alfheim Ten=92er (s= ee Alfheim) and also that it be an even fraction of the value of a typical = horse. Foreign usage: Outside of Karameikos these are accepted in Selenica, Easter= n parts of the 5 shires, and in Machetos. Some Minrothad and Ierendi merch= ants coming to Specularuam will accept it as well but the islands themselve= s will not.=20 Foreign circulation: Some of the traditional Thyatian denominations (see Th= yatis) are found in circulation, especially coins from Kerendas/Machetos/Mo= sitius, particularly in the Eastern parts of the country. Summation: Domestic System: 1 Crona=3D10 Kopecs=3D40 standard =93Bits=94 Thyatian Imperial Standard- 1 Lucin=3D20 Asterius=3D200 Denarius= =3D1/10 Emperor Local Crona & Kopec match the Imperial Asterius and Denarius, respectively. Main Denominations encountered (see text for other rarer coins): (The form= atting of this table will probably not come through intact) Denomination Value Weight Notes =93Bit=94 (Bronze/Brass) (standard value=3D0.25cp), other values exist Copper Half-Kopec 0.5cp 120/lb Common, Small Copper Kopec 1cp 60/lb Rare Copper Denarius 1cp 60/lb Imperial Standard, Imported Silver Crona 1sp 60/lb most now to a de facto Tendrius Standard Silver Asterius 1sp 60/lb Imperial Standard, Imported, Tendrius System Gold Lucin 20sp 60/lb Imperial Standard, Imported Platinum Emperor 200sp 30/lb Imperial Standard, Imported, Large, rare Historical coin ideas: Perhaps copper Para=92s, silver imitations of Gold = Dinars and Gold Markas? Perhaps pengos and/or forint=92s (the later being = imitations of Vyalian florins?) and Banicas produced by various traladaran = lords? Coins based on neighboring countries? Older Kopecs and Kronas/Koru= nas/Kroner, even gold Kronas/etc. Old Vyalian Florins. The Northeast of t= he country was dominated by Darokinian, and especially Selenican, interests= , see Darokin entry for ideas. The coastal areas had influence and trade f= rom early Minrothad, see Minrothad entry for ideas. well... comments? critiques? criticisms? insults? attacks? and flames await= ing. what does everyone think? :) Greg Weatherup GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@email.com http://members.fortunecity.com/gecko_g/ --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:47:20 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Mystaran Numismatics - Karameikos oops- I just noticed two needed corrections. I never changed the "legal Te= nder" reference and I left off mid paragraph talking about the barons coins. change the legal tender reference under the section about the guildens to "= ... and while these coins have no official direct status from the Duke, giv= en that the goldsmiths guild is dominated...." Also change the end of the "other coins" entry/paragraph to read "... the c= losest equivalent to the half-kopec in value, this usually blends in with t= he half-kopecs and occasionally turns up. As is par for the traditional Th= yatian system (see q.v.) it is usually underweight and on a metal-to-metal = value would really be worth about 5/11 or 5/12 of a kopec, but it usually c= hanges hands unnoticed as a half-kopec. The Black Eagle Baron produces a s= eries of large, base metal coins denominated in Kopec values which feature = a prominent portrait of the Baron (RW inspiration- Renaissance Italian Silv= er Testones) but these generally don=92t circulate much beyond Fort Doom an= d the Baron=92s mercenaries." sorry, Greg W.=20 --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:41:35 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: coinage and GP's Specularuam Trade Guilds On 22/01/2008, Greg Weatherup wrote: > weight systems and thus a gold coin. The only issue I am not sure on is the following: would there have been the same Thyatian linguistinc influence in the islands to cause the same k -> c consonant shift as happened in Karameikos? I don't know enough about Minrothad and its history to answer that. I think the consonant shift is just a transcription variant -- Thyatian does have a 'k' consonant (e.g., Kerendas), probably mostly used in words of Milenian or Doulakki origin. Also, in that context 'k' and 'c' would have the same sound [k]. It is possible that the Thyatian word (corona) simply spread in different country before the coin and local variants were used when the krona/korun became a popular currency name. > >1/60 is very realistic, AFAIK. It is circa the weight of a roman > >aureus. However, copper coins were usually heavier (and much larger). > > I did some quick looking, I think 1/60th to a pound works out to about 96 grains gross or about 1/5 of a ounce troy - about an american quarter size/weight coin in silver (if you want another country for comparison let me know and I'll see if I can find some info - ie for euro's I believe that works out to something between a 50 cent and 1 euro coin). The 50 eurocent weighs 7.8 (metric) grams. An aureus was (theoretically) 1/40 of a roman pound, which is slightly more than 8 grams. 1/60 of a pound depends on the pound used, but should be between 6 and 7.5 grams. However, the eurocents are basically copper coins, while an aureus was a pure gold coin, thus the same weight means a thinner and possibly smaller coin. > As for copper coins (at least non-subsidiary coins) being heavier thats because in the RW history gold and silver were viewed as significantly more valuable than copper whereas in the D&D economy the metals are set at much closer value (1:10:100 for Gold:Silver:Copper in most xD&D systems), or as I have it in my system - 1:20:200 (this is a topic I discuss at more length in the intro to my document). That's true. BTW, did you post the full document somewhere? > Adventure hook idea- perhaps after defeating some goblins who fight alongside/with trained dogs, the adventurers are perplexed because the goblins have no identifying symbol nor battle standard, but they do find a bagfull of these "testones" on the bodies with the big portraits of baron von Hendricks on the coins, this being the adventurers first suggestion of a link between the black eagle and humanoids [it was a Nightseeker party looking for escaped slaves]. Good idea here. > Of course I don't think "testone" would be the name of the denomination more the style of the coin. The denomination might be say a third (1/3) of a kopec. Or keep it simple and have it be a half-kopec. ?? Ok. > hmm... using magic to assist in coin production.... That sounds like Alphatian style magic to me. perhaps milled edge coins would be gnomish, while coins with words or intricate patterns are Alphatian. If I can ever figure out the difference between milling, reeding, and graining, maybe I could make one them a Glantrian specialty. IIRC, Glantri specifically has a coin with a real metal content that is much lower than the coin value - a standard platinum coin that is worth 50 gp when the magic aura is in place. > After having done some quick reading on the subject of milling (There is actually more to the history of it than I would of thought - 3 pages in Mackays guide alone!) milling came about in the 1500s, becoming widspread througout Europe by the mid 1600s (the last major hold-out being Holland, which produced hammered coins as late as 1670). Which makes it a good match for the Gnomes, since most KW nations are somewhat less technologically advanced than the 1500s Europe, but Dwarves and Gnomes are probably more advanced than that (gunpowder excluded). GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:45:49 -0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C1tila_Pires_dos_Santos?= Subject: Re: coinage and GP's Specularuam Trade Guilds On 1/21/08, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > On 21/01/2008, =C1tila Pires dos Santos wrote: > > > > > IIRC, the city-state Korun is also a gold coin. It's possible that the > > karameikan Crona was changed to a silver coin in order to have a gold > Royal > > (and thus put the new karameikan order above the old traladaran ways; > the > > same probably is true for the platinum city-state Halavs and karameikan > > electrum Halavs). > > Or, maybe, the Crona had lost so much value that it contained already > more silver than gold and/or was under the standard weight. Yes, that's indeed likely for the Cronas =3D) I'd use the other idea for the Halavs, OTOH, since they're something of a "special" coin, too valuable to be find easily and rarely minted; when the karameikan duke decided to mint a new electrum coin, he just used the traladaran tradition. That's just my opinion about it, but it could be something different as well ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:28:55 -0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C1tila_Pires_dos_Santos?= Subject: Re: coinage and GP's Specularuam Trade Guilds On 1/22/08, Greg Weatherup wrote: > > Reply to dos Santos: > > >IIRC, the city-state Korun is also a gold coin. It's possible that the > >karameikan Crona was changed to a silver coin in order to have a gold > Royal > >(and thus put the new karameikan order above the old traladaran ways; the > >same probably is true for the platinum city-state Halavs and karameikan > >electrum Halavs). > > ooh... whats the source for this? Savage Coast Campaign Book ( http://pandius.com/svge_cst.html ) ;) The table is here: http://pandius.com/sc_equip.html Beyond Slagovich I didn't have any info on City State coinage. VotPA and SCCB presents each one a different coinage for Slagovich. SCCB also extends this to all city-states. hmm... now we've got 2 gold and 1 silver coins so the original denomination > was probably originally gold. and I like your idea of subjugating the > traladaran system. =) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:50:52 -0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C1tila_Pires_dos_Santos?= Subject: Re: Mystaran Numismatics - Karameikos On 1/22/08, Greg Weatherup wrote: > > I think I'm close to a final version now, thanks to both your inputs. Actually I wish I could really help here, but I'll be able to read every detail only next week, when I get home. This subject is very interesting for me, since I'm planning to DM a pbem about the traladaran migration to the SC at AC 450 , so which currency was used at traladara, darokin and the minrothians is quite significant. On 1/22/08, Greg Weatherup wrote: > > The "Crowns": The "Crown", in one form or another, has been a denomination > in Traladara for centuries. The Crona, better known in previous eras as the > Krona (in the central coast area around Marlinenev), Koruna* (in the > Darokinian influenced North-East), and Krone* (plural Kroner, in the greater > Halag area), has long been produced at high quality/high standards, on the > authority of the monechangers guild in Specularuam. What about if old Halag region use instead the Koruna, which is closer to the SC Korun, since they mainly came from west traladara? =) BTW, one way to use both VotPA and SCCB currencies for Slagovich is to use VotPA coins as the LB coins, while all city-states use those of the SCCB. Slagovich is one of the main trade centers of the SC and probably its coins will be easy to find, including at the neighbour city-states. Also, VotPA coins have english names, which fits GP's idea for having english as the LB common language. It's also possible that Slagovich once was a LB outpost before the traladarans got there (I'm using this idea for the pbem and the material I'm writing with GP based on these ideas). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:31:51 -0500 From: Robert Hartley Subject: Ethereal creatures Hi all, I've been subscribed to the list for awhile now, but this is my first post. I'm running a campaign for 5 players averaging about 4th level (Odnd). Soon they will have access to the Ethereal plane. I'd like any suggestions anybody might have on creatures to populate the plane with. the players have no experiance with other planes and I'd like my version of the Ethereal to spook the party. I'd like the pc's to be cautious about "going Ethereal" because they're never quite sure what might be waiting for them when they get there. Thanks! -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:02:46 -0800 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Mystaran Numismatics - Karameikos > =20 > ok, here is the first public draft of the entry for Karameikos from my nu= mismatics guide. I hope my formatting is coming through correctly. > =20 > I should mention that Karameikos has now become the largest entry in my d= ocument, by a good margin. I should also mention again, if I didn't alread= y, that this builds upon the previous works of Christopher Cherrington & Je= sper Andersen (are either of you two here?) and is for the AC 1000-1004 tim= e frame. It is intended as a source of fluff and guideline for DMs to fles= h out the coins. > =20 Yep, I am still here. Although I can't take much credit, I based my numism= atics on a Dragon article I read once. My main ideas were to implement a c= omplicated trading system (purposely) and to increase the value of gold by = making it rare (most coins were made of silver, I changed all prices to sta= ndard silver and not gold). I also wanted to make carrying money more real= istic, under the old rules 10 coins weighed 1 pound. To buy a suit of armo= r you would have to carry 45 pounds of gold, highly unrealistic to me. Ano= ther article from Dragon "What's he got in his pockets..." also pointed out= another problem, can a thief pickpocket more than 2 pounds of gold? By ma= king coins differing sizes, like 60 to a pound, thieves can pickpocket more= . =20 Great work by the way, Chris _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo= ur "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx= ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 21 Jan 2008 to 22 Jan 2008 (#2008-10) ***************************************************************