Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Apr 2008 to 3 Apr 2008 (#2008-11) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 04/04/2008, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 5 messages totalling 433 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dominion names and titles (3) 2. Thyatian dominion 'Rank' (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:41:19 +0100 From: Carl Matthews Subject: Dominion names and titles I think that there is an underlying difference between what a noble calls= himself (in-game) and what his true rank would be (meta-game). For do= minion purposes, it might only be the size of a Barony and it should be l= ead by a Baron but for reasons of his birth or family or just a claimed t= itle that he has no right to, the owner calls himself Count. Every other = leader in the area would be aware that he was really low status (based on= the lower area and lower income) but no one is going to dispute his titl= e unless they want to make an enemy of him and if he is low status, why w= ould they bother? So your Count calls himself a Count but at court, hi= s word, vote or whatever counts for less than that of a known Baron who h= as more land, experience, troops, etc. Titles are one thing but in polit= ics, all the players will know where the tru power lies, regardless of na= mes. Probably only King and Emperor are definitely out, and you wouldn= 't claim the title of Prince unless there was not a king close enough or = strong enough to slap you down; e.g. the leader of a pirate kingdom might= call himself Prince of the Isles take on the trappings but everyone woul= d understand that he wasn't really a Prince by blood. They better still = refer to him as Prince and treat him as a Prince when they are in his cou= rt though, otherwise they will end up walking the plank!! Lol. Rgds C= arl (ex-lurker) > --------- Original message ---------- > From : "M= ystara_server" > To : MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZ= ARDS.COM > Cc : Sent : Thu, 3 Apr 2008 00:00:03 -0700 > Subject : M= YSTARA-L Digest - 1 Apr 2008 to 2 Apr 2008 (#2008-10) > > There are 2 = messages totalling 95 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > = > 1. Thyatian dominion 'Rank' (2) > > *****************************= *************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: htt= p://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://w= ww.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.C= OM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > -----------= ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: = Wed, 2 Apr 2008 02:54:59 -0500 > From: Greg Weatherup > Subject: Thyatian dominion 'Rank' > > Aloha, > > Chris D= avies wrote: > >--- Anthony Edwards wrote: > >> > >> It isn't too much= to think that in Mystara, the Thyatin Empire > >> could have a unique s= ystem of title all it's own. > > > >They could. But as the Thyatian Emp= ire, like all nations in the > >D&D World, was made up to give people us= ing the Dominion System > >as outlined in the D&D Companion set a place = to do so, it makes > >NO SENSE for them to not use the ranking described= in it, in > >which a Count definitely outranks a Baron. > > I defina= tely agree. > > Gecko > > --=3D20 > Want an e-mail address like mi= ne? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > **********= ********************************************************** > The Other W= orlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara= Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSE= RV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.= > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07= :16:44 -0700 > From: Anthony Edwards > Subj= ect: Re: Thyatian dominion 'Rank' > > It makes sense if that is the wa= y it is... > > I was just giving you guys a possible route. > > > = ----- Original Message ---- > From: Greg Weatherup = > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 1:5= 4:59 AM > Subject: [MYSTARA] Thyatian dominion 'Rank' > > Aloha, > = > Chris Davies wrote: > >--- Anthony Edwards wrote: > >> > >> It isn'= t too much to think that in Mystara, the Thyatin Empire > >> could have = a unique system of title all it's own. > > > >They could. But as the Th= yatian Empire, like all nations in the > >D&D World, was made up to give= people using the Dominion System > >as outlined in the D&D Companion se= t a place to do so, it makes > >NO SENSE for them to not use the ranking= described in it, in > >which a Count definitely outranks a Baron. > = > I definately agree. > > Gecko > > -- > Want an e-mail address l= ike mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > ****= **************************************************************** > The O= ther Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The M= ystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to = LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the me= ssage. > > > _________________________________________________= ___________________________________ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's= offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > http:/= /tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com > > *********************= *********************************************** > The Other Worlds Homep= age: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: = http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.W= IZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ---= --------------------------- > > End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 1 Apr 2008 t= o 2 Apr 2008 (#2008-10) > **********************************************= *************** > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:49:09 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Dominion names and titles On 03/04/2008, Carl Matthews wrote: > I think that there is an underlying difference between what a noble calls himself (in-game) and what his true rank would be (meta-game). > > For dominion purposes, it might only be the size of a Barony and it should be lead by a Baron but for reasons of his birth or family or just a claimed title that he has no right to, the owner calls himself Count. This is definitely true -- think of the Alphatian "Barons", who are basically Kings, or the "Duke" of Cimarron (which is an informal title, since Cimarron is a County). The direct connection between title and actual rank is only meaningful within a single nation, and even then there may be many reasons why the title do not match the rank or power of a given noble (in Thyatis, a noble might have bought into an higher ranking title without holding an appropriately-sized dominion; or, an especially important, though small, area might have been given a higher ranked title). GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:26:42 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Thyatian dominion 'Rank' Chris Davies wrote: > >> They could. But as the Thyatian Empire, like all nations in the >> D&D World, was made up to give people using the Dominion System >> as outlined in the D&D Companion set a place to do so, it makes >> NO SENSE for them to not use the ranking described in it, in >> which a Count definitely outranks a Baron. On 02/04/2008, Anthony Edwards wrote: > It makes sense if that is the way it is... Except that the Thyatian Empire, like most other KW nations does not exactly match the Companion ranking system. For example, there are no Marquises in Thyatis, and no Viscounts in either Thyatis or Karameikos (while in Karameikos there are currently no Counts, the title could theoretically be awarded to a noble). Other variations are the Landed Lord and Landed Knight ranks in Karameikos. Most other KW nations do not even have a ranking system. Glantri is the only exception, in that is mirrors almost perfectly the Companion system (up to the Archduke rank, since Princes are then variant). Moreover, the Companion system assumes that the various lesser nobles hold their title as vassals of the upper nobles, while in most KW countries this does not happen (i.e., Karameikan Barons cannot create Landed Lords, and all known Thyatian nobles, even Barons, hold their titles directly from the Emperor). However, you'll note that, in the Thyatian system, Barons are fairly uncommon, and the only Barons are not of ethnic Thyatian origins (we've got Biazzan, who's clearly Alasiyan, Burhohur, which is a dwarven barony, and Caerdwicca). Moreover, the "Baron" of Caerdwicca is actually a Thane. Thus, I would propose that the Thyatian system was originally structured in just two ranks: Duke (nation lord) Count (clan lord) With the Alphatian conquest, Thyatis was organized as a Kingdom (just like the Pearl Islands and Ochalea), adding the King rank. At the formation of the Empire, the King rank was abolished and replaced with that of Archduke, and the rank of Emperor was added, leading to this system: Emperor Archduke Duke Count Which accounts for most of the current noble titles. We are therefore left with two issues: 1) Why some small domains have high-ranking titles? 2) Where does the "Baron" title come from? For (1), we have mostly: - Terentias (Grand Duchy): possibly awarded the Grand Duchy rank for willingly joining the empire. - Mositius (Duchy): likely raised from County to Duchy because the current ruler is a close friend of the Emperor. Also, the largest County, Hattias, was originally a Duchy. For (2), I'd say that, most likely, also the Barons of Buhrohur and Biazzan, like the Baron of Caerdwicca, hold a non-Thyatian title (Thane in Caerdwicca's case, probably Dulgardar for Buhrohur and maybe Sheik or Qadi for Biazzan). These titles are basically equal to the Count title in rank, but hold somewhat less prestige. I also think the "Baron" title actually originated in Darokin, and was then adopted in Traladara and other neighbouring nations (Glantri, for example), and possibly also in Thyatis (Biazzan, if it doesn't use an Alasiyan title). GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 19:35:39 +0100 From: Mortus Subject: Re: Dominion names and titles Another real world example follows: in the United Kingdom there are many nobles of many ranks with land, some extensive, and yet when I was younger there was a man who lived around the corner from us who was a Duke. He was from Dublin, lived there all his life however he inherited the title from his father, in turn his fathers father was an English Duke. The man who lived around the corner from us (in a working class suburb) inherited the title and rights but his grandfather had sold the estate to pay off massive debts. how many barons/counts/other ranks icreased their holdings but not their ranks at this families expense. The old man around the corner from us was still entitled to a seat in the british house of lords, and his vote would still carry the weight of his rank. Jason. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giampaolo Agosta" To: Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Dominion names and titles > On 03/04/2008, Carl Matthews wrote: >> I think that there is an underlying difference between what a noble calls himself (in-game) and what his true rank would be (meta-game). >> >> For dominion purposes, it might only be the size of a Barony and it should be lead by a Baron but for reasons of his birth or family or just a claimed title that he has no right to, the owner calls himself Count. > > This is definitely true -- think of the Alphatian "Barons", who are > basically Kings, or the "Duke" of Cimarron (which is an informal > title, since Cimarron is a County). > The direct connection between title and actual rank is only meaningful > within a single nation, and even then there may be many reasons why > the title do not match the rank or power of a given noble (in Thyatis, > a noble might have bought into an higher ranking title without holding > an appropriately-sized dominion; or, an especially important, though > small, area might have been given a higher ranked title). > > GP > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 18:36:04 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Thyatian dominion 'Rank' Aloha, Anthony Edwards wrote: > It makes sense if that is the way it is... > > I was just giving you guys a possible route. It definately does seem to fit that pattern, but I'd rather figure out some= other explanation (unless someone can point out even more cases where that= seems to be the case). Gecko --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Apr 2008 to 3 Apr 2008 (#2008-11) *************************************************************