Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Apr 2008 to 4 Apr 2008 (#2008-12) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 05/04/2008, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 5 messages totalling 340 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dominion names and titles (2) 2. Thyatian dominion 'Rank' (3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 01:25:25 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Dominion names and titles One point to consider is that the title of "Duke" of Cimmaron should be considered as a joke based on the name of its holder -- I think it was something like "John of the Wain" -- and the nickname of "Duke" for his real life counterpart, the American actor John Wayne. Thus, if you come up with a system that accounts for everyone but the "Duke" of Cimmaron, you are probably on to something. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giampaolo Agosta" To: Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 3:49 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Dominion names and titles > On 03/04/2008, Carl Matthews wrote: > > I think that there is an underlying difference between what a noble calls himself (in-game) and what his true rank would be (meta-game). > > > > For dominion purposes, it might only be the size of a Barony and it should be lead by a Baron but for reasons of his birth or family or just a claimed title that he has no right to, the owner calls himself Count. > > This is definitely true -- think of the Alphatian "Barons", who are > basically Kings, or the "Duke" of Cimarron (which is an informal > title, since Cimarron is a County). > The direct connection between title and actual rank is only meaningful > within a single nation, and even then there may be many reasons why > the title do not match the rank or power of a given noble (in Thyatis, > a noble might have bought into an higher ranking title without holding > an appropriately-sized dominion; or, an especially important, though > small, area might have been given a higher ranked title). > > GP > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 11:00:49 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Thyatian dominion 'Rank' Some additional notes on the Thyatian rank problem. I've checked DotE, and this is the ranking system set there, in descending order: Duke (Archdukes are Dukes that rule a new territory rather than a mainland dominion, which explains the status of Terentias; a duchy is semi-autonomous, while a county is not) Count (the "typical" noble rank, only bestowed by the Emperor) Baron (a lesser rank that can be bestowed by the Senate and Dukes as well as by the Emperor; territory tends to be smaller than a county, but not necessarily; this, when bestowed by the Emperor or Senate, is generally a title for a new noble, who is then expected to progress quickly to Count) In addition to these, there are the Lord, Knight and Lord Knight titles. The first two are the same as Court Lord and Knight in Karameikos, while the Lord Knight is a hereditary title that is associated with a landed title (Baron or more) and allows the bearer to bestow the Knight title (a power which is otherwise reserved to the Senate and Emperor). Note that, while the Lord title is mentioned as coming with no real benefits and being non-hereditary (just like the Court Lord) in the Thyatis book, in the DM's book it is mentioned that Lord titles can be bought, and come with a single-hex (24 miles) dominion. Given the state of things in Karameikos, I guess both options should be available. So, we still have Biazzan, Buhrohur and Caerdwicca as "freestanding" baronies. They may be Baronies for a number of reasons: - Senate creations not especially liked or approved by the Emperor - New fiefs (IIRC, this does not apply to Buhrohur at least) GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:43:50 -0400 From: Joe Mason Subject: Re: Thyatian dominion 'Rank' On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 5:00 AM, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > So, we still have Biazzan, Buhrohur and Caerdwicca as "freestanding" baronies. > They may be Baronies for a number of reasons: > - Senate creations not especially liked or approved by the Emperor > - New fiefs (IIRC, this does not apply to Buhrohur at least) Another option is that their rulers don't care for politics and haven't made any effort to progress to Count. This would make sense for the Thane. Jor ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:14:14 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Dominion names and titles Aloha, Carl Matthews wrote: > I think that there is an underlying difference between what a noble calls= =3D > himself (in-game) and what his true rank would be (meta-game). good point. > For do=3D > minion purposes, it might only be the size of a Barony and it should be l= =3D > ead by a Baron but for reasons of his birth or family or just a claimed t= =3D > itle that he has no right to, the owner calls himself Count. Every other = =3D > leader in the area would be aware that he was really low status (based on= =3D > the lower area and lower income) but no one is going to dispute his titl= =3D > e unless they want to make an enemy of him and if he is low status, why w= =3D > ould they bother? > > So your Count calls himself a Count but at court, hi=3D > s word, vote or whatever counts for less than that of a known Baron who h= =3D > as more land, experience, troops, etc. Titles are one thing but in polit= =3D > ics, all the players will know where the tru power lies, regardless of na= =3D > mes. I could see this possibly explaining Actius and Furmenglaive. Giampaolo Agosta wrote, replying to Carl Matthews: > This is definitely true -- think of the Alphatian "Barons", who are > basically Kings, or the "Duke" of Cimarron (which is an informal > title, since Cimarron is a County). good examples Mortus wrote: > Another real world example follows: > in the United Kingdom there are many nobles of many ranks with land, some > extensive, and yet when I was younger there was a man who lived around the > corner from us who was a Duke. > He was from Dublin, lived there all his life however he inherited the title > from his father, in turn his fathers father was an English Duke. > The man who lived around the corner from us (in a working class suburb) > inherited the title and rights but his grandfather had sold the estate to > pay off massive debts. > how many barons/counts/other ranks icreased their holdings but not their > ranks at this families expense. > The old man around the corner from us was still entitled to a seat in the > british house of lords, and his vote would still carry the weight of his > rank. That's a good example from modern British Peerage, I think there was also s= ome title whom the holders were struggling farmers in The US IIRC. However, I don't think the modern British Peerage system would be useful fo= r comparing to feudal titles for Mystara which are based on historical Euro= pe. Greg "Gecko" Weatherup GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@email.com --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:30:03 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Thyatian dominion 'Rank' Aloha, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Except that the Thyatian Empire, like most other KW nations does not > exactly match the Companion ranking system. For example, there are no > Marquises in Thyatis, and no Viscounts in either Thyatis or Karameikos > (while in Karameikos there are currently no Counts, the title could > theoretically be awarded to a noble). Other variations are the Landed > Lord and Landed Knight ranks in Karameikos. Most other KW nations do > not even have a ranking system. Glantri is the only exception, in that > is mirrors almost perfectly the Companion system (up to the Archduke > rank, since Princes are then variant). of course if you go back eariler into Feudalism then Viscount and Marquis a= re just variations on "count", Viscount originally "vice-count" and Marquis= or Margrave from Mark-graf or "March-Count"/"Count of the Marches". For Landed Lord and Landed Knight in Thyatis, I always had two views: 1) an= y of their dominions are too small to show up at most map scales we have fo= r Thyatis (the smallest scale in any canon map I believe in 8 miles/hex, no= t counting the maps of Thyatis city itself of course.) & 2) These may not even be "imperial" titles in my view (but that gets into= a whole nother side topic). Also Landed Knight could be more like the Holy Roman Empire Knights. > Moreover, the Companion system assumes that the various lesser nobles > hold their title as vassals of the upper nobles, while in most KW > countries this does not happen (i.e., Karameikan Barons cannot create > Landed Lords, and all known Thyatian nobles, even Barons, hold their > titles directly from the Emperor). in the case of "imperial" and most non-imperial titles, yes. > However, you'll note that, in the Thyatian system, Barons are fairly > uncommon, and the only Barons are not of ethnic Thyatian origins > (we've got Biazzan, who's clearly Alasiyan, Burhohur, which is a > dwarven barony, and Caerdwicca). Moreover, the "Baron" of Caerdwicca > is actually a Thane. hmm, good point. > Thus, I would propose that the Thyatian system was originally > structured in just two ranks: > Duke (nation lord) > Count (clan lord) > > With the Alphatian conquest, Thyatis was organized as a Kingdom (just > like the Pearl Islands and Ochalea), adding the King rank. > At the formation of the Empire, the King rank was abolished and > replaced with that of Archduke, and the rank of Emperor was added, > leading to this system: > Emperor > Archduke > Duke > Count > Which accounts for most of the current noble titles. wow, I like so far... > We are therefore left with two issues: > 1) Why some small domains have high-ranking titles? > 2) Where does the "Baron" title come from? > > For (1), we have mostly: > - Terentias (Grand Duchy): possibly awarded the Grand Duchy rank for > willingly joining the empire. > - Mositius (Duchy): likely raised from County to Duchy because the > current ruler is a close friend of the Emperor. > Also, the largest County, Hattias, was originally a Duchy. > > For (2), I'd say that, most likely, also the Barons of Buhrohur and > Biazzan, like the Baron of Caerdwicca, hold a non-Thyatian title > (Thane in Caerdwicca's case, probably Dulgardar for Buhrohur and maybe > Sheik or Qadi for Biazzan). These titles are basically equal to the > Count title in rank, but hold somewhat less prestige. nice... For Biazzan I would probably say either Qadi or Caid, since doesn'= t the ruler of Tel Akbir go by Sheik informally? Is there any cannon info on when Biazzan was established as a Barony/"Qadi-= dom"/"Caid-dom"? > I also think the "Baron" title actually originated in Darokin, and was > then adopted in Traladara and other neighbouring nations (Glantri, for > example), and possibly also in Thyatis (Biazzan, if it doesn't use an > Alasiyan title). which then passed through Thyatis to the Alphatian portions of the isle of = dawn (and to the Savage coast baronies). Nice. Greg "Gecko" Weatherup GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@email.com --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Apr 2008 to 4 Apr 2008 (#2008-12) *************************************************************