Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 27 Jan 2008 to 28 Jan 2008 (#2008-16) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 29/01/2008, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 4 messages totalling 289 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. coinage (3) 2. Mystaran Numismatics ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:59:17 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: coinage Greetings, At work today I realised a few things.... 1) My formula was for a square shaped coin. After adjusting my spreadsheet= for a round coin it makes the sizes an average of 1.7 mm larger, but still= small and light weight. 2) Those were for pure metals, which while that is not realistic it is a go= od starting point for ball park calculations. I though about how if each o= ne was 50% pure and the Ag/Ae were alloyed with a metal twice as dense (nic= kel or something), and likewise the Au/Pt was alloyed with a metal half as = dense (zinc or aluminum or something), wouldn't that make them both the sam= e weight and sizes? this could have several advantages from ease of calcul= ating encumberance to figuring out how many coins can be carried in a conta= iner. However this is a lot of ifs and it's unlikely the standard would be= thusly. But after having spent some time thinking about the benefits of t= his, and the other conversations in this thread, I've begun to wonder if th= ere might be some varients I could include in my varient for if DM's want a= dvice on making coins be the same weight between metals, and/or the same si= ze. While the 120 per pound for Copper/Bronze/Brass & Silver and 60 per pound f= or Gold & Platinum is more historically acurate, I am leaning towards going= with 60 & 30 so as to result in larger coins >> I'm sorry, you lost me... Is Halav on the gold or the electrum=20 >> piece in the Gaz version? > There's no electrum coin in the GAZ. Halav's head appear on the royal (gol= d coin). well, there are a number of ways to handle this- 1) say that the Gaz gold coin is actually the goldsmiths guild's guilden. = I don't like for a number of reasons, #1 being that it seems more likely th= ey would put the duke on the coin, not halav. 2) say that this is actually one of the old gold krona's. That's easily en= ough done, just remove the bit about the crowns being historically a hexago= nal shape and have that the new silver cronas were made hexagonal to help d= ifferentiate them. 3) say that this was the initial/early design of the royal (or maybe even a= pattern coin) but that the hexagonal shape from K:KoA was quickly settled = upon. Personally I'm leaning towards #3 and that it was just some trial pieces th= e duke had struck in the gaz era, perhaps he didn't like it or the threshol= d mint was too busy making kopecs until sometime before the K:KoA era the h= exagonal coins started being made. Best of all, no violation of cannon. > Indeed. Though the real world root often lose their relation to the actual= coinage -- the RW filler is generally 1/100 of the primary currency, for example. huh. Does the Hungarian filler (1/100th) have the same root as the German = vierer (4)? >> Is there any cannon or fanfic describing why a lion is the=20 >> heraldic symbol of old Halag? Interestingly the lion as a=20 >> heraldic feature is far less common in Mystara than as in the RW. > IIRC, K:KoA has heraldry for Halag, displaying a lion rampant on a field p= arty per saltire, argent and azure. > But no reason is given... oh yeah, there it is on page 39 of the explorer's guide on a picture of a m= ap "created for the royal grandchildren". It seems to be for the town of h= alag, not for the black eagle baron, which makes sense. Greg Weatherup GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@email.com http://members.fortunecity.com/gecko_g/ --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:05:46 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Mystaran Numismatics >> Is the boat and fish in the middle of the lozenge? > Nope, the roundels are above the boat. hmm.... doesn't seem to be any pattern then to the number of roundels on th= e various coins.... >> oh I just thought of a better idea... Was there any period of=20 >> Darokin's history, especially right before unification, where=20 >> there were 4 dominant states in Darokin? or maybe 4 dominant=20 >> western states? (If so this idea could potentially tie into my=20 >> history of the Passem). > Before unification? Darokin was divided in some 15 states in 700 AC:=20 > http://pandius.com/darokinmod6xh.jpg > However, western Darokin was divided in four states/nations in ancient tim= es: > http://pandius.com/darokin8300bclabels3ya.png hmm.. too far into the past for what I was thinking, oh well... Greg Weatherup GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@email.com http://members.fortunecity.com/gecko_g/ --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:42:11 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: coinage Greetings, I'm enjoying following the discussion about traladaran heraldry, but I have= nothing to add. I'm also following the discussion on Slagovich coinage, but the only commen= t I have are these two thoughts: - Perhaps the decision to put cinnabryl in the coins was motivated by the e= lite (read wealthy) so that they would have another source of cinnabryl to = protect them in a pinch? - Perhaps they are purposfully trying to increase the amount of red steel, = or vice versa trying to decrease the amount of cinnabryl on the market to d= rive up the price? Or does this require too advanced an understanding of e= conomic supply-and-demand for a Mystaran government? now on to some specific replies: >> Thats one puny coin! Unless my math off somewhere??? > No, it seems ok. A coin of 2 cm diameter and 1 mm thickness would be circa 0.31 cm3. At 2.1 cm diameter and 3 mm thickness it's 1 cm3. umm let's see, that would be between the diameter of an American penny and = nickel, but thicker. >> and I have to go all the way down to 1mm thickness (which is=20 >> about what an american >> dime is I think) to get 19mm (comprable to an american dime but=20 >> yet with more grains). >> Is my spreadsheet off somewhere? > No, it's probably right. Ancient gold and silver coins were indeed small a= nd thin. huh. >> Unless my spreadsheet (or math formula) is off somewhere, all of=20 >> these are coming out awfully small.... > I'd start from 2mm thick and 2 cm wide. It gives a 6.28 g silver coin -- i= t's only about 60/pound, but it's more or less the size of a 10 eurocents, = or the 5 US cents. A similarly weighed copper/bronze coin would be larger (= larger than a 20 eurocents or 1/4 US dollar). > These make for good sized coins. > Gold and electrum coins will be necessarily smaller, with electrum sized a= t 1.8 cm x 1.8 mm (like a 2 eurocent coin), and gold at 1.6 cm x 1.6 mm (li= ke the 1 eurocent coin or the US dime). I guess it's a matter of perception. I always presumed D&D coins were larg= er, more like say a british half-crown. > Larger coins will still be possible, e.g. the large glantrian penny. Large glantrian penny? Is this another difference between the Gaz and the = AD&D boxed set? Or do you mean the enchanted platinum crown? (which I have= as heavily alloyed.) Erol wrote: > My own preference, in whatever fantasy game system I'm using, is for a "me= dium" weight coin to be ~5g. If the system has coins weighing between 2.5 a= nd 10 grams, then that's acceptable to me.=20 That sounds like a good house rule, though I personally probably would of g= one a little larger. > Especially since I like to house-rule into existence half-value and/or double-value coins of half and double the standard weight, circulating along with the normal coins. ooh, much like I'm doing. :) > For electrum at 90 per Avoirdupois pound, each coin would weigh 5.04g, wit= h gold coins being heavier and Ag/Ae lighter. If using Troy pounds, the coi= ns would come off on the small side, as you noted. If you want your coins t= o be on the larger side, then 30/45/60 per Troy pound would work better for= you. The coins would then be very close in size to the US quarter-dollar. yes, thats what I'm leaning towards personnaly. I definately think I need to add a section to the introduction of my file, = a sidebar for "scaling your currency" or something. Greg Weatherup --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:45:09 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: coinage On 28/01/2008, Greg Weatherup wrote: > > 2) Those were for pure metals, which while that is not realistic it is a good starting point for ball park calculations. I though about how if each one was 50% pure and the Ag/Ae were alloyed with a metal twice as dense (nickel or something) Not very likely. Only rare elements, gold and platinum have such high densities. For gold, alloying it to such extent makes it equal in worth to electrum. > 3) say that this was the initial/early design of the royal (or maybe even a pattern coin) but that the hexagonal shape from K:KoA was quickly settled upon. I think the hexagonal shape could have been minted only after Karameikos became a kingdom. > >Indeed. Though the real world root often lose their relation to the actual coinage -- the RW filler is generally 1/100 of the primary > currency, for example. > > huh. Does the Hungarian filler (1/100th) have the same root as the German vierer (4)? Apparently, yes. Name meaning and actual value often have little relation, as the passing of time, normalization of fractions, depreciation, change of languages etc. change it. More or less like the italian lira did not have any relation with the libra (pound) weight in modern times. > oh yeah, there it is on page 39 of the explorer's guide on a picture of a map "created for the royal grandchildren". It seems to be for the town of halag, not for the black eagle baron, which makes sense. Yes, that's it. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 27 Jan 2008 to 28 Jan 2008 (#2008-16) ***************************************************************