Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 25 Mar 2008 to 27 Mar 2008 (#2008-5) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 28/03/2008, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 3 messages totalling 471 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mystaran Numismatics (2) 2. a RW "Drachenfels" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:03:30 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Mystaran Numismatics Aloha, >> ok, I follow now. Should we make Nithian coins based on RW [Egyptian] >> hellenistic system then? (Obols, various multiples of Drachma/Drachmae, >> Mina/Minae, and Talents)? > I think it's a good idea, at least for Nithia ;) > The Traldars, Doulakki and Milenians coins may be inspired by other > helenistic nations rather than the ptolemaic egypt ;) I can see how the Doulakki & Traldar systems could be related to Nithian sy= stem, but I don't see the connection to Milenian (though I don't know much = about Milenia, is that the culture on SW Skothar or the historic one on Dav= ania? An M-Greek right?) I tried to do some initial research on how the currency systems differed be= tween the various hellenized states, and while the artistic nature varied v= astly, the general currency system and mix of denominations did not vary, s= ure a couple added in Staters, or combined in denominations from prior loca= l systems (ie greek persia, greek india, etc.). Even in far off Bactria th= e only additions were square coins and some coins minted from a natural nic= kel alloy, still though apparently a currency system of various Obols, Drac= hamaes, mina, & Talents. (Again, based on my limited quick research). Now= that doesn't mean that a Drachma from one greek state was the same value a= s another states (ie a dispute going all the way back into the Archaic peri= od with the competing Aeginan & Attic systems), but it does make me want to= leave this RW-greek system for use in Milenia/Minea, and use something els= e for Nithia and later Traldaras/Doulakki. >>> Will Terentias have it's own coinage? How do you picture their culture?= =3D =3D3D) >> >> yes, like all the Thyatian Grand- and Arch- Duchies, it is allowed it's >> own domestic system to circulate alongside the Imperial one. Probably wi= =3D th >> some mix of Reis, Maravedis, Milreis, Reals, "Piece's of Eight", Doubloo= n=3D 's, >> & Escudos (probably not going to use all of those as it would be too >> busy). I had pegged its culture as Ispan and Pirate influenced though I >> would kind like to link it's coinage to something else (either Minrothad= i=3D or >> some predecessor). What is the descent of the older human families of th= =3D e >> Terentian population? (asides form the more recent and probably majority >> Thyatian groups) Nithian? Traldar? Doulaki? Taymoran? etc.? > > > I agree with the way you see Terentias, especially because I tend to see > Thyatis much more like the Holy Empire during renaissance than Rome itself: > the main problems with this idea (pictures showing people using roman-like > clothes and armours (from different periods) and latin (or latinesque) > names) that DotE have could be explained by the renaissance desire to look > like romans and greeks; probably they're only translations of their names > from their usual variation of Thyatian (italian) to the "Old Thyatian" > (latin) and paintings that don't truly reflect the clothes and armours > thyatians wear nowadays (quite like renaissance paintings). This, BTW, cou= l=3D > d > help explaining why the most powerful culture of the KW is quite different > from all others of the region (being the only one that's ancient/classical= )=3D > , > and even thyatians offshots are obviously modern or, at least, late > medieval (ispans/espas/verdans at the SC, Caurenze and even Kol, the HK and > everything that's shown in K:KoA), which follows the KW stantard. BTW, DotE > also have pictures showing late medieval/modern clothes as well... > I guess Thyatis could also fit the "byzantine" role, but wouldn't that make > it even more different from what's shown that make it a M-Holy Empire? I personally see Thyatis as a natural amalgem of all three (Ancient Rome, B= yzantine Rome, & Holy Roman Empire), with the ancient Roman aspects being m= ost pronounced amongst the Thyatians, the Byzantine aspects most pronounced= amongst the Kerendans, and the Holy Roman Empire/Germany most pronounced a= mongst the Hattians, but elements of all three can be found in each subgrou= p. > Well, back to Terentias ;) > Originally me and GP were working on the Ispan timeline using Terentias as > it's main stronghold (at least until 500 AC), but we changed it in order to > make it simplier: now Ylaruam itself is the "Old Ispa=3DF1ola" and Terenti= as =3D > was > settled only in 500 AC (here's the complete idea: > http://www.pandius.com/belcthr2.html ).=20 hmm, interesting take on it, and it has a lot to recomend it, but I've alwa= ys had a slightly different take. For the Belcadiz I have always had that their history is a great secret tha= t perhaps the players could uncover (unfortunately non of my games ever got= that far) and while I never figured out all the details, it is fairly clos= e (probably 80-90% similar) to Valerya's take on the Belcadiz. I never placed the Ispans much, other than deciding that they, like the Cau= renzians, were a splinter group from the Kerendans. As for Terentias, I always figured it was originally an independent 'Thadde= r type state that joined the empire (be-it freely or by intimidation and pr= essure) and hence why it was given grand-duchy status (much like how Machet= os was originally a Traladaran, or maybe doulakki entity, long since largel= y overrun by Thyatian/Kerendian/Hattian immigrants). Towards that end I ha= d tried to figure out why the different Thyatian dominions were each the st= atus that they were (Barony, County, Duchy, or Grand-/Arch- Duchy), though = I never did get all the details fully worked out. > > According to the older idea, > Terentias originally have a M-Basque culture, that could explain some basq= u=3D > e > words that we have on our M-Spanish languages. But since we dropped this > idea, it's more likely that this original M-Basque culture existed somewhe= r=3D > e > around the Altan Tepes, leaving Terentias open for any other ancient > colonist, if needed. M-Basque huh? I've always viewed the Doulakki as M-Etruscan, in the RW are= n't there some theories that the historic Etruscans and the historic and mo= dern Basques are all related peoples? > We also used Terentias as the origin for the M-Portuguese people, the > Verdans, which I guess may fit nicely with your idea. BTW, they would like= l=3D > y > use most of the coins you listed above (*Maravedi* (a.k.a. *Morabitino*) a= n=3D > d > *Dobr=3DF5es* (Doubloons) to a minor extent, but *Real* (*R=3DE9is* is the= plur=3D > al of > *Real*, and *Milr=3DE9is* means "a hundred *r=3DE9is*") and Escudos should= be > extremely common names for coins, and the same is true for *Cruzado*. > Although *Dinheiro* may also be used (it comes from roman Denarius), it > means currently "money" in portuguese and may sound somewhat ackward to > modern standards... Others names could also be used, shuch as Patacas or > Vint=3DE9ns. (I though milreis was a thousand reis?) I hadn't developed Terentias much, I had the Escudo as a Platinum coin equa= l to a gold Doubloon and both being equal to 2 gold Peso's/"Piece's of Eigh= t". Then I had smaller coins of 1 Silver Real equal to 320 Maravedis (of a= copper alloy) or 2 Silver Milreis or 2000 Bronze Reis, with the Real equal= to an eigth of a Peso. But I never really liked what I had as I wanted to= tie it into the Minrothadi system (to match my take on Terentian history a= s above) or some pan-regional predecessor system, but again, I lacked the k= nowledge of Mystaran history to really progress very far. I never thought = about Cruzado's and such as you have, that could work.... Terentias as a M-= Portuguese pirate source... Are there any RW historic Portuguese Pirates w= e could emulate as an Terentian NPC? (I can't think of any off the top of m= y head). > Either way (as a M-Spain or M-Portugal), I guess we could use the coinage = o=3D > f > the Savage Baronies and Nueva Ispa=3DF1ola as a model for it ;) yes, it could be the predecessor of one or both systems. (note to self: go= look up the Nueva Ispanola system) >>> I hope we will have soon one for the SC city-states and the LB Trading >>> Company/Dunwick ;) >> >> I think you and GP had posted several ideas for the LB coinage, but I >> didn't seem to of written it down, I'll have to go back through the old >> digests here. > > I can send them to you later, if you want ;) That could be very helpfull, as I don't know when I'll have the time to sea= rch through the old digests I saved. >>> >>> Actually I do, but I'll have to wait until monday to get home ;) >> >> oh that would be excellent, thank you very much! > > Unfortunatelly, I don't have it here, sorry (which is odd, it should be he= r=3D > e > somewhere...) =3D3D( ah, oh well. Thank you for looking for me. Greg "Gecko" Weatherup GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@email.com --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:34:43 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C1tila_Pires_dos_Santos?= Subject: Re: Mystaran Numismatics On 3/27/08, Greg Weatherup wrote: > > > I can see how the Doulakki & Traldar systems could be related to Nithian > system, but I don't see the connection to Milenian (though I don't know m= uch > about Milenia, is that the culture on SW Skothar or the historic one on > Davania? An M-Greek right?) The second one ;) The other one is Minaea (with, BTW, is likely related to all M-Greek peoples, but with Jennite influence). IIRC, while Traldars and Doulakki should represent M-Mycenaean Greece, the gnoll invasion should represent a M-Greek Dark Ages, the remaining "late Doulakki" on Darokin and Thyatis are M-Ancient Greece (of Greece and Italy, respectively) and the Traldars that migrated to Davania became the M-Hellenistic Greece Milenian Empire. BTW, that gives me an idea, that the Milenians could be, in part, a M-Seleucid Empire. Although it would be difficult to have a second M-Persia at there (we already have one at the Arm of the Immortals, the Yezchamenid Empire), we had a M-Phoenicia quite close to this region (Taymora), and a few remaining fragments may survived in Davania. We also have the davanian Oltecs, that don't have (yet) a RW equivalent, AFAIK (although a M-Rapa Nui could be useful, especially if we could link it to the original culture at the IoD and Colima (Azcan Empire, HW)). Minaea also could be the M-Bactrian Kingdom, since it also had, as it's RW counterpart, have M-Scythia just north of it =3D) a dispute going all the way back into the Archaic period with the competing > Aeginan & Attic systems Pehaps a Nithia vs Traldar/Doulakki systems competition? =3D) but it does make me want to leave this RW-greek system for use in > Milenia/Minea, and use something else for Nithia and later > Traldaras/Doulakki. I'm listening, please go on with your idea ;) > I personally see Thyatis as a natural amalgem of all three (Ancient Rome, > Byzantine Rome, & Holy Roman Empire), with the ancient Roman aspects bein= g > most pronounced amongst the Thyatians, the Byzantine aspects most pronoun= ced > amongst the Kerendans, and the Holy Roman Empire/Germany most pronounced > amongst the Hattians, but elements of all three can be found in each > subgroup. Sure, that could also work for Thyatis, as all other ideas (just M-Rome or just M-Byzantium) work as well. I just rather picture it as M-Holy Empire because since it includes historically germans and italians, it fits more o= r less all canon for Thyatis; besides, since Thyatis is the centre of the KW culture, the neighbour nations (and even the thyatian colonies) should mimi= c it, and that's not the case, most of them sharing a renascence culture. And Italy was the center of the renascence, bringing back elements of the old, lost roman culture. =3D) > hmm, interesting take on it, and it has a lot to recomend it, but I've > always had a slightly different take. > For the Belcadiz I have always had that their history is a great secret > that perhaps the players could uncover It could still be a secret (or simply lost), especially before meeting the thyatian tribes ;) (unfortunately non of my games ever got that far) and while I never figured > out all the details, it is fairly close (probably 80-90% similar) to > Valerya's take on the Belcadiz. Is it at the Vaults? =3D) > As for Terentias, I always figured it was originally an independent > 'Thadder type state that joined the empire (be-it freely or by intimidati= on > and pressure) and hence why it was given grand-duchy status (much like ho= w > Machetos was originally a Traladaran, or maybe doulakki entity, long sinc= e > largely overrun by Thyatian/Kerendian/Hattian immigrants). Towards that = end > I had tried to figure out why the different Thyatian dominions were each = the > status that they were (Barony, County, Duchy, or Grand-/Arch- Duchy), tho= ugh > I never did get all the details fully worked out. I think Machetos was a doulakki state, and probably all other greek souding names reflects the doulakki presence at mainland Thyatis and south Ylaruam. =3D) > M-Basque huh? I've always viewed the Doulakki as M-Etruscan, in the RW > aren't there some theories that the historic Etruscans and the historic a= nd > modern Basques are all related peoples? GP's Fomorian realm at the Altan Tepes have a M-Etruscan culture. I originally thought the same thing, but he thinks it may not be necessary, since there's no proven connection between RW basques and etruscans ;) Still, they would be somewhat close, anyway. > (I though milreis was a thousand reis?) Oops, yes, a Thousand ;) Terentias as a M-Portuguese pirate source... Are there any RW historic > Portuguese Pirates we could emulate as an Terentian NPC? (I can't think o= f > any off the top of my head). Although there are some known portuguese pirates/privatters (Bartolomeo Portugu=EAs and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeo_Portugu%C3%AAs and Manuel Rivero Pardal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Rivero_Pardel for example), foreign privateers working for the portuguese crown (Roche Braziliano being the most famous) or pirates that raid the portuguese colonies (usually Brazil, such as Bartholomew Roberts, Edward Low and even Francis Drake), the portuguese empire actually have quite little envolvment with piracy, fighting it or uing it as a tool, when compared to England, France and Netherlands (and possibly as much as Spain). That's likely because when Portugal was at its height (XV-XVI), there weren't such strong piratical tradition at the Atlantic, and most of what existed by that time, focused much more at the Caribbean Sea and the spanis= h gold and silver. When the piratical axis shifted to the Indian Ocean, Portugal had already suffered much from the Iberian Union (much of it's resources were used by Spain while struggling for it's supremacy on Europe and America, and some of it's colonies were lost, like Recife and Olinda (Brazil) to the dutch WIC). Still, mystaran Verdans are somewhat different from RW portuguese people, since they do have a strong piratical tradition. Vilaverde and Texeiras hav= e many privateers and the strongest fleets (and sea tradition) of the SC. Also, both have probably the best pirate heavens of the region (although honestly I think this is somewhat odd; Vilaverde should be hunting pirates that don't work for them, since their riches comes through commerce). That makes them somewhat different from the rest of the Ispan/Espa culture, and pehaps they already have those different traits even before arriving at the SC. I think this may be a mix of thyatians (ispans and "italian" kerendans) with a minrothaddan influence, especially if Calitha is indeed their main patron. > yes, it could be the predecessor of one or both systems. (note to self: > go look up the Nueva Ispanola system) =3D) http://www.pandius.com/ispanola.html Coinage: Dubloon (gp), Peso (sp), Real (cp); Thyatian and Minrothian coins are accepted at face value, all others are deeply discounted. > That could be very helpfull, as I don't know when I'll have the time to > search through the old digests I saved. Ok, I'll send it for you ASAP ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:25:04 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: a RW "Drachenfels" Nice! Thanks for sharing. Maybe we could use this information to further develop the history of the Drachelfels family? Do they have roots back to Laterre? Was there a Siegfried Drachenfels who slayed a powerful Dragon? Havard --- Greg Weatherup skrev: > Aloha, > > Here's an interesting random thing I came across, > maybe it will inspire someone writing about the > Aalban ruling family: > > http://starnarcosis.net/obsidian/gerT-Z.html#WALDBOTT > > From the Regnal Chronologies entry for Waldbott von > Bassenheim: The district of Drachenfels > (Dragonrock) is a prominent hill overlooking the > Rhine, about 7 miles (11 km.) southeast of Bonn, and > is associated with the ancient Teutonic myth of > Siegfried as the place where he fought the dragon > Fafnir. > There is a real word Drachenfels... who knew??? Interesting. > > Greg W. > > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________ Alt i ett. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notisblokk. http://no.mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 25 Mar 2008 to 27 Mar 2008 (#2008-5) **************************************************************