Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Jan 2008 to 20 Jan 2008 (#2008-8) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 21/01/2008, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 2 messages totalling 233 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. coinage and GP's Specularuam Trade Guilds (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:10:36 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: coinage and GP's Specularuam Trade Guilds Aloha, After I read Agathokles post "Guilds, Orders and Secret Societies in Karameikos" at the wizards forum, I decided I wanted to incorporate it into my games (or at least most of it- I'm not 100% convinced on the brotherhood of the woods). Then I got to thinking about the impact of the trade guilds and especially the bit about the moneychangers and goldsmiths guilds of Specularuam and how that would effect the alternate currency system I use. I came up with the following notes for which I would like some feedback, not only if there is anything in cannon that conflicts with this but also just ideas in general or if there is any problems with it, etc., etc. It's from my working document on Mystaran Numismatics, hence why it will have references like "see Thyatis". I should mention that I have ruled that the copper Kopec is a fairly rarely encountered coin (like an American 50c or dollar coin), something the Duke wants to remedy, and also that there are smaller denomination coins in copper and bronze/brass, notably a common copper half-kopec coin. Oh yeah, this is AC 1000-1004 timeframe. -The Crona, in one form or another, has been a denomination in Traladara for centuries. -The Crona, or in previous eras, the krona, koruna, krone/kroner, etc. (pronunciation probably different in different areas and/or eras of traladara), has long been produced at relatively high quality/high standards, on the authority of the monechangers guild in Specularuam. Originally it was based on the Darokinian Tendrid but gradually came to be based on the Thyatian Asterius as Thyatian influence became dominate (though the two, Lucin and Asterius, are theoritcally equal anyhow per the Tendrius agreement and thus Traladara/Karameikos has long been de facto on the Tendrius standard). Obviously the krona/koruna/krone/kroner mean =93Crown=94 in old and modern traladaran representing the crown - and its authority - not being on the head of an individual but spread amongst the oligarchs of the City-State, since at the time only the rich people had silver coins. Now the word has been influenced by Thyatian and is called =93Crona=94 by Karameikans of both ethnicities. -Side note to the above- What about outside of Marlinev in the centuries before the Thyatians? Given Marlinev's influence would the other Traladaran lords import it (perhaps trade utilizing trade goods and some copper, bronze/brass coins) or immitate it (and how successfully? ie how debased)? -Eventually (at or following Karameikan independence) the mint will start producing a gold coin, the Royal. For now the goldsmiths guild occasionally produces coins valued in various =93guilden's=94 (in the Dwarvish language =96 see Buhrohur, and perhaps in the Hattian dialect of Thyatian as well, though I am unsure of this last bit) or =93Guilders=94 (in standard Thyatian) or =93Florins=94 (in Traladaran and perhaps in Kerendan &/or Ispan dialects of Thyatian =96 see Vyalia), and while these coins have no official legal tender status, given that the goldsmiths guild is dominated by dwarven craftsmen, they are usually of very fine craftsmanship and quality so are widely accepted, but there is no official rate to the traditional/thyatian systems. (or should their be some set rate, ie 2.5 florins per lucin/royal or some such?). However the local economy of specularuam is currently too small to produce much eccess gold, and most of what gold there is gets made into jewelry by the guild. -When the royal does become a standard coin of the realm, perhaps it is specifically minted in Threshold to avoid the monopoly granted within Specularuam to the guilds? -To further weaken the moneychangers guild, the right to mint Copper coins was bestowed upon the new mint established in Threshold and permission likewise was given to the mint in Highforge (which had previously been producing guildens in co-operation with the specularuam goldsmiths guild) by the Thyatian conquerers/occupiers. OR- perhaps the right to mint copper coins was first striped from the moneychangers guild, then when the scarcity of copper coins started to become an issue, only then was when the mint was established in Threshold and Highforge was given permission to mint coppers. That could explain why they are not associated with minting nowdays (or perhaps they still have the right to mint coppers in conjunction with the other mints OR perhaps they maintain the privledge to mint the Bronze and silver denominations) -Many of the Kopecs that do get produced end up getting cut up or broken to make the equivalents of half, quarter, etc., Kopecs, much to the dismay of the mint officials. -Much counterfeiting of the half-Kopec denomination coin takes place, but given a relative scarcity of coins, such counterfeits are usually knowingly accepted at face value out of necessity. (RW inspiration for this: counterfeit copper coins in the American Colonies due to a scarcity of coins shipped over from Britain). I don=92t think this is due to any active work by either the Veiled Society nor the Kingdom of Thieves, but is more small-time operations, or even merchants making tokens out of economic necessity, etc. (though perhaps the VS & KoT do some small scale counterfeiting of coppers or bits as a small sideline =96 adventure idea: at some point in the future one or the other of the two decide to start counterfeiting silver or gold coins and the adventurers must uncover the culprits) well, what does everyone think? These were fairly quickly thought out to tweak what I already had written for Karameikos and incorporate other aspects of my currency system. Greg WeatherupGWxup@excite= .comGecko_G@email.comhttp://member.fortunecity.com/gecko_g/ --=20 Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:07:22 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: coinage and GP's Specularuam Trade Guilds On 20/01/2008, Greg Weatherup wrote: > > -Side note to the above- What about outside of Marlinev in the centuries > before the Thyatians? Given Marlinev's influence would the other > Traladaran lords import it (perhaps trade utilizing trade goods and some > copper, bronze/brass coins) or immitate it (and how successfully? ie how > debased)? I think there were basically three major foreign influences in Traladara: - Thyatis: up to 900 AC, Thyatis did not consider Traladara much, so the influence was more due to trade and cultural exchanges than on political/military power. - Darokin: Darokin and Selenica did at some point control part of Traladara (in my history, it's the NE area); it's likely that NE Traladaran coinage was based on Darokinian or Selenican models, at least in the times around the Elfwar. - Minrothad: Harbortown and New Alphatia, and later the Minrothad Guilds would have a major influence on the politics of Halag and Marilenev, being the major trading partners; IIRC, Minrothad coins include a "crona" as well. The Guilds of Marilenev were also probably modeled at least in part on Minrothad. Also, there were three major human-populated areas in Traladara: - Halag (including the coast south and Koriszegy) - Marilenev (including the coast up to Sulescu and Dimitrov) - the north-east, including modern Threshold, Kelvin and Penhaligon. Darokinian influence would be stronger in the north-east, Thyatian influence in Marilenev, and Minrothad influence in both Halag and Marilenev. The other influence on coinage would come from Highforge. It is very likely that a lot of coins used in NE Traladara and in Marilenev as well came from Highforge's mint, and influenced to some extent the local designs. > no official legal tender status, given that the goldsmiths guild is > dominated by dwarven craftsmen, they are usually of very fine > craftsmanship and quality so are widely accepted, but there is no > official rate to the traditional/thyatian systems. (or should their be > some set rate, ie 2.5 florins per lucin/royal or some such?). These are coins made of valuable metals, not banknotes, so the Moneychangers and the Goldsmiths would be able to set exact change rate by evaluating weight and alloy purity for the coins. Obviously, others would have much more problems with the evaluation, so that's why the moneychangers exist -- they give you currency with which you (or the locals) are familiar instead of whatever you bring them, taking a small fee. Very stable and common coins would be accepted also by other merchants, while unfamiliar coins or those known to be of inferior alloys would be not be accepted as easily. > -When the royal does become a standard coin of the realm, perhaps it is > specifically minted in Threshold to avoid the monopoly granted within > Specularuam to the guilds? That's a nice idea. It also minted in secrecy, to avoid river pirates. > -To further weaken the moneychangers guild, the right to mint Copper > coins was bestowed upon the new mint established in Threshold and > permission likewise was given to the mint in Highforge (which had > previously been producing guildens in co-operation with the specularuam > goldsmiths guild) by the Thyatian conquerers/occupiers. OR- perhaps the > right to mint copper coins was first striped from the moneychangers > guild, then when the scarcity of copper coins started to become an issue, > only then was when the mint was established in Threshold and Highforge > was given permission to mint coppers. That could explain why they are > not associated with minting nowdays (or perhaps they still have the right > to mint coppers in conjunction with the other mints OR perhaps > they maintain the privledge to mint the Bronze and silver denominations) Note that Highforge is an independent gnomish kingdom -- the gnomes and dwarves there ignore the human laws. They probably mint on their own some currency for internal use, and accept human currency when trading abroad. So, rather than giving permission to mint coins, it would be more of an outsourcing of the mint (which, BTW, is still fairly common practice in RW). > -Much counterfeiting of the half-Kopec denomination coin takes place, but > given a relative scarcity of coins, such counterfeits are usually > knowingly accepted at face value out of necessity. (RW inspiration for > this: counterfeit copper coins in the American Colonies due to a scarcity > of coins shipped over from Britain). What type of alloy is used? > active work by either the Veiled Society nor the Kingdom of Thieves, but > is more small-time operations, or even merchants making tokens out of > economic necessity, Even lesser rulers might issue coppers in small denominations, maybe not even officially minted, but just copper blocks with weight marks. > at some point in the future one or the other of the two decide to start > counterfeiting silver or gold coins and the adventurers must uncover the > culprits) well, what does everyone think? That would be very profitable, especially for gold coins -- adding silver or copper in the alloy would decrease the actual value of gold coins by one half or more. Also, "shaving" coins was another RW practice that can be performed even on relatively small scale and requires no special tools. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Jan 2008 to 20 Jan 2008 (#2008-8) **************************************************************