Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 15 Sep 2009 to 16 Sep 2009 (#2009-46) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 17/09/2009, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 7 messages totalling 657 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed (7) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:20:47 -0400 From: Kveld Ulf Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed < Subject: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed I wanted to take a look at what was "canon" material for werewolves with PC4 Night Howlers by Ann Dupuis, and so far I just peeked at the beginning, and I am finding myself critical. It details that lycanthropy was spread by Follows of Air (wolf, tiger) and Followers of Fire (boar, bear), and was later augmented through experimentation, granting further abilities and weaknesses, and also being affected by one of Mystara's moon. I wanted for my campaign to go toward some more dark ages gothic lycanthrope style, with ad-mixture for White Wolf ideas (e.g. mother earth or natural world fighting Sphere of Entropy forces), and I find their write up limited, as it ties lycanthropy to particular groups, at least historically, and others become random events. IMHO this sort of waters down or cheeses the mystery and horror of werewolves to something comical, e.g an episode of Wizards Gone Wild.>> I haven't read Night Howlers in a whle, but I remember being somewhat surprised by the "origin story" for lycanthropes when I ran into it in other sourcebooks. Granted, all this came out before (I think) the dark and brooding WW stuff, and the Mystaran gazetteers generally took a lighthearted tone in a lot of ways. That said, you could get around this several ways: - The early of Mystara as given in the Hollow World box and assorted gazetteers mentions that the origin of humanoids came about when evil spirits were reincarnated in bestial forms under the guidance of the Immortal Hel. In my campaign, Hel is the Queen of Witches (broadly akin to Wee Jas in Greyhawk, with some Hecate from Greek myth thrown in). It would be a small leap to have lycanthropes originate in the same wave of evil spirits reincarnated into the world. In fact, since lycanthropes can shapechange you could go fo far as to have them predate humanoids, who (from the descriptions) came first in a myriad of shapes before settling into distinct races. - The origin story as given in the gazetteers isn't too bad. My main problems with it are the short timeline (lycanthropes would only have been around for just about 400 years - long enough for mature demihumans to remember when the shapechangers first showed up) and that they have to spread from one or two spots. As I recall, they originated in Alphatia, spread to Glantri and thence the rest of the world. Again, kind of hard from a continuity POV to have them in distant parts of the world even assuming a Dawn of the Dead degree of spreading the contagion. - Thinking about it, I'd probably go for a mix of both. The first lycanthropes emerge during the very early history of Mystara, as Hel begins reincarnating especially evil types into new forms to spread evil in the world. Humanoids are the second wave of this plan, less powerful and bound to one form, but more numerous and able to breed without relying on infecting others. By a thousand years ago or so, these "ur-lycanthropes" have been mostly wiped out in populated areas (perhaps because they only can change form during the full moon and are thus more vulnerable for most of a given month). Some particularly crafty Alphatian wizards capture a few of these "ur-lycanthropes" and tweak them magically so they can shapechange at will and gain some other advantages; they turn them loose via trade routes as part of a plan to destabilize the Thyatians. The lycanthropes of course have other ideas and spread pell-mell around the globe, threatening many of the established nations. The situation gets so dangerous the purge described in the books begins and succeeds in wiping out large numbers of the shapechangers, the survivors lingering in the shadows. Side note - one of the accessories (the sea one?) mentions an elf who leads the purge against lycanthropes and goes on to become an Immortal. Might be fun to play with this in your Karameikos campaign - might be the patron of lycanthrope hunters among the elf clans in Karameikos. Given how long they have to learn the habits of their quarry, a small secret order of them could make for a good NPC group. Given how much time elves can take with projects, the elves might not just be exterminators - could function more like the watcher type humans in the Highlander TV series, watching their prey and only culling the ones who get out of hand. Just some random thoughts.. Andy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 06:34:59 -0700 From: Paul Dooley Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed Just for interest what is your opinion of Five Shires? --- On Tue, 15/9/09, Joaquin Menchaca wrote: From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: [MYSTARA] Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Date: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 3:48 PM I wanted to take a look at what was "canon" material for werewolves with PC= 4 Night Howlers by Ann Dupuis, and so far I just peeked at the beginning, a= nd I am finding myself critical.=A0 It details that lycanthropy was spread = by Follows of Air (wolf, tiger) and Followers of Fire (boar, bear), and was= later augmented through experimentation, granting further abilities and we= aknesses, and also being affected by one of Mystara's moon.=A0=20 I wanted for my campaign to go toward some more dark ages gothic lycanthrop= e style, with ad-mixture for White Wolf ideas (e.g. mother earth or natural= world fighting Sphere of Entropy forces), and I find their write up limite= d, as it ties lycanthropy to particular groups, at least historically, and = others become random events.=A0 IMHO this sort of waters down or cheeses th= e mystery and horror of werewolves to something comical, e.g an episode of = Wizards Gone Wild. Reading further, I was horrified about the write up about Zirchev.=A0 Karam= eikos, based in part of Central East Europe RW cultures including Moldavia,= Transylvania, where we get a lot of lore about evil creatures, including W= erewolves and Vampires.=A0 These creatures have plagued Traladarans, and ev= en though Zirchev has affinity toward nature, I would imagine his interest = to use his powers to protect Traladarans, and fight the growth of monstrous= creatures, including undFrom ???@??? Fri Sep 18 06:58:32 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: webmaster@PANDIUS.COM Delivery-date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 03:00:31 -0400 Received: from oracle.wizards.com ([70.102.136.150]:2062) by cally.asmallorange.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MoXSI-00076O-Px for webmaster@PANDIUS.COM; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 03:00:30 -0400 Received: from LISTSERV (10.12.8.13) by oracle.wizards.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CD03C8@oracle.wizards.com>; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 0:00:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 00:00:02 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Sep 2009 to 17 Sep 2009 (#2009-47) To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Message-ID: Precedence: list There are 5 messages totalling 196 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed (5) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 08:45:45 +0100 From: Carl Matthews Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed Kveld is spot on when he says that all this stuff came out before White W= olf got their hands on werewolves. These are NOT nice creatures or mis-un= derstood brooding dark heroes; they EAT people. Granted, in my games, I h= ave two versions. One lot only change during full moon. These are 'victim= s' of infection and in no control of their wereshapes actions. The infect= ion spreads by bite, requires a Cure Disease and a Remove Curse and is ba= d enough that PCs worry about getting bitten during a fight Then there a= re the proper ones, who have given themselves over fully to their dark si= de and in return get more control but are evil to the core. Only WW ha= s decided that Vampires, Ghosts, Werewolves etc are heroic protectors. Ne= arly every piece of literature before the 'adult romantic fiction' burst = of the Nineties had these things in their rightful spot in the world; as = MONSTERS! Lots of players over the years have had these 'wanna-be Goth' c= haracters in my games, which is fine. They can play whatever they enjoy a= nd I'll try to accomodate that in the storylines but my NPCs, well, they = embrace their nature and happily chow down on anything weaker than they a= re, even if they are sneaky about doing it. Predictable, yes, but I want = my world to be more black and white than endless shades of political grey= . . My definition of evil in my game is 'I am stronger than you are and I= 'll do whatever I please and you can't do a thing about it'. My good guys= follow a sort of unwritten 'I am stronger than you are so I will defend = your rights to life and freedom'. Thoughts, anyone? Carl > = > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:20:47 -0400 > From: Kveld Ulf > Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impre= ssed > > > I haven't read Night Howlers in a whle, but I remember b= eing somewhat > surprised by the "origin story" > for lycanthropes whe= n I ran into it in other sourcebooks. Granted, all > this came out befo= re (I think) the > dark and brooding WW stuff, and the Mystaran gazettee= rs generally took > a lighthearted tone in a lot > of ways. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:12:53 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed 2009/9/17 Carl Matthews : > Kveld is spot on when he says that all this stuff came out before White Wolf got their hands on werewolves. These are NOT nice creatures or mis-understood brooding dark heroes; they EAT people. Well, in Night Howlers, lycanthropes are definitely not presented in WW style (no Goth/brooding dark hero stuff). But PC lycanthropes aren't just monsters either. Like Orcs of Thar, Night Howler chooses to present "monster" PC in a light hearted tone -- even silly campaign, where lycanthropy is more embarassing than dangerous, are supported. Night Howlers proposes several campaign models: - Werewolves are people, too: basic campaign, lycanthropy is a power like spellcasting or thieving skills, most lycanthrope PCs have their lycanthropy under control and are not openly persecuted. - On the run: lycanthropes are hunted down, so the PCs must keep their lycanthropy secret at all costs. - Fighting the curse: PCs are infected lycanthropes, and will commit evil acts while under the effects of the moon; the goal is to find a cure (may combine with On the run). - A Home of our own: establishing a lycanthrope nation; a political campaign, possibly with "save the nature" overtones (possibly the more WW-style campaign). May combine or derive from On the run. - World conquest: as the above, but with more evil PCs bent on world domination -- possibly the only evil PCs campaign supported in the book. - Party animals: the silly campaign, with goofy werebears, sly werefoxes, etc. Lycanthropes are not persecuted, except by rabid (and evil) were-hunters. Lots of brawls (usually non-lethal) in beast-man form, and archetipal villains as the opposition. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 03:31:04 -0700 From: Paul Dooley Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed Looking for a word, rhymes with borrent.=0AThe entire "you too can turn you= r hobbit into elmister" blight by Mr. Ed the talking horsesh*t does make pa= rts of the thing nigh unreadable.=0A=0A--- On Wed, 16/9/09, Giampaolo Agost= a wrote:=0A=0AFrom: Giampaolo Agosta =0ASubject: Re: [MYSTARA] Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Imp= ressed=0ATo: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=0ADate: Wednesday, 16 September, = 2009, 3:18 PM=0A=0A2009/9/16 Simon Smith :=0A> Botherati= on. On your recommendation, I was about to go and buy the 5 Shires=0A> from= drivethrurpg. Then I remembered I couldn't anymore.=0A=0AIndeed, it's a pi= ty that pdf books are not anymore sold :(=0A5 Shires has a bit of FR-style = super-good-NPCs (it's written by=0AGreenwood), but the history, culture and= adventure hooks a really=0Agood.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB From ???@??? Sun Sep 20 09:35:26 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: webmaster@PANDIUS.COM Delivery-date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 03:00:36 -0400 Received: from oracle.wizards.com ([70.102.136.150]:3829) by cally.asmallorange.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Motvu-0001PE-E7 for webmaster@PANDIUS.COM; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 03:00:35 -0400 Received: from LISTSERV (10.12.8.13) by oracle.wizards.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CD20A5@oracle.wizards.com>; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 0:00:06 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 00:00:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion Sender: Mystara RPG Discussion From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Sep 2009 to 18 Sep 2009 (#2009-48) To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Message-ID: Precedence: list There are 5 messages totalling 208 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed (3) 2. More Ideas and Future Stories Regarding Werewolves 3. Gnomish Details From Expert Guide ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 04:56:21 -0700 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed On this topic of werewolves are people too, and it's an embarrassment, or that players can be good werewolves... One sobering statistic that should be considered is: Type of Estimated Requirement Creature (Pounds of Flesh Daily) =================== ======================== Werebat ................ 2 Werebear ............... 50 Wereboar ............... 20 Werecrocodile .......... 50 Werefox ................ 5 Werejackal ............. 20 Wererat ................ 2 Wereraven .............. 1 Wereseal ............... 50 Wereshark .............. 75 Weretiger .............. 50 Werewolf ............... 25 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:11:44 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed 2009/9/18 Joaquin Menchaca : > On this topic of werewolves are people too, and it's an embarrassment, or= that players can be good werewolves... > > One sobering statistic that should be considered is: > > Type of =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Estimated Requirement > Creature =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(Pounds of Flesh Daily) Contrary to other settings, there's no indication that the flesh must come from any sentient. Werebats, wererats, and wereravens simply eat a lot of raw meat, making it their primary food, but are not markedly above the human norm (at least, not so much as to become nuisances or have to forgo living in cities). Sure, werebears or weretigers are unlikely to last long in a civilized environment, unless they have wealth enough to import cattle. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 05:12:26 -0700 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: More Ideas and Future Stories Regarding Werewolves I actually like the Gaia concept in White Wolf, about how nature can create= aberrations in nature to fight back. Reminds me of Princess Monanoke (=E3= =82=82=E3=81=AE=E3=81=AE=E3=81=91=E5=A7=AB, Mononoke-hime). I also think a= bout Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, about the spirit of the planet bein= g attacked by the corrupted spirit of a dead world, gives me ideas to how A= lphatian world was destroyed. There could be mad insane Were creatures fro= m that world, and protector oriented ones from Mystara.=0A=0AThough, my cur= rent goal is Dark Ages Transylvania style, where werewolves are typically e= vil. So, I'll lean toward ideas from Ravenloft and other sources.=0A=0AHow= ever, I like the concept of societies, organizations, tribes, packs, etc. = If a set of creatures are more powerful and can disguise themselves at huma= n, why not use that power to can wealth and influence, at least to support = themselves.=0A=0AI think in the beginning, Werewolves for me will be horrif= ic, and my goal to develop them is to allow DMs to have custom more powerfu= l werewolves. At some point, players can play weaker versions, and at that= point, I'll get more involved with evil werewolves, neutral ones, and nobl= e ones. There'll be a nature/creation vs. corruption/entropy story arc, an= d I'll integrate this into other powerful realms, like spirit realm (Etheng= ar, Atraughin) and Dreaming (fey, faeries, other changlings).=0A=0AMost of = the world though, will have not clue, and to them, werewolves don't exist, = and if they do they are horrific. Zirchev Hunters will track them down and= destroy them.=0A=0A- Joaquin=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 22:57:32 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed Where does it say that werewolves must be evil? In my game some lycanthropes are good and some are evil. It mostly depends on who "granted" them the ability to be lycanthropes. Those who are cursed with lycanthropy have no choice but to be of animal nature when under the change. I see no reason why those who have acquired their lycanthropy by choice cannot gain levels of mastery in it. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joaquin Menchaca" To: Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Started to read PC4 Night Howlers, Not Impressed > On this topic of werewolves are people too, and it's an embarrassment, or that players can be good werewolves... > > One sobering statistic that should be considered is: > > Type of Estimated Requirement > Creature (Pounds of Flesh Daily) > =================== ======================== > Werebat ................ 2 > Werebear ............... 50 > Wereboar ............... 20 > Werecrocodile .......... 50 > Werefox ................ 5 > Werejackal ............. 20 > Wererat ................ 2 > Wereraven .............. 1 > Wereseal ............... 50 > Wereshark .............. 75 > Weretiger .............. 50 > Werewolf ............... 25 > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:23:56 -0700 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: Gnomish Details From Expert Guide What's intersting about Gazetteer or boxed set, is that there's more information it seems in the earlier Expert Rulebook: ================================================================ Gnomes: Living in the hills, the gnomes are a quiet and solitary group. They make little effort to contact the outside world, but iwll deal with traders when such arrive. There are 620 gnomes living throughout this area. This number is divided between a large lair of 250 and several smaller outposts of no more than 100 each. A council of elders chosen by the gnomes, 1 from each outpost and 3 from the main lair, guides the members of the community in most decisions. The council will act as judges, handle trade, and distribute any money for the defense of various outposts. However, any important decisions are decided by a general vote of the population. Strangers desiring to deal with the gnomes must first present their case to the elders for approval. Should this approval not be given (and the gnomes are extremely reluctant to involve themselves in the affairs of any outsider), the case will be closed. In the even tthat the council cannot decide, a general vote will be taken. If great differences prevent an outpost of the lair from agreeing peacefully on an issue, the dissident faction will leave and establish a new outpost in the area. In this manner, the gnomish lands are slowly growing, although disunity slows this somewhat. The gnomes are excellent craftsmen, especially skilled in combining items of wood and metal. Their wares will bring good prices in human lands. Trade is rendered difficult, however, not only by the reluctance of teh gnoems to deal, but also because the goblins of the forest and the gnomes are involved in frequent skirmishes. ================================================================ Source - Dungeons & Dragons, Fantasy Adventure Game, Expert Rulebook by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson Then there were further information, through a picture in the Book of Wondrous Inventions, which depicted a Gnomish King. And later Highforge noted in Kingdom of Karameikos and GAZ1, and naturally Top Ballista. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Sep 2009 to 18 Sep 2009 (#2009-48) ***************************************************************