Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2009 to 30 Sep 2009 (#2009-60) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 01/10/2009, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 6 messages totalling 759 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship (6) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:21:00 +0100 From: Carl Matthews Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship Can I just add my agreement to what Jason said. I think learning historic= al nuggets like this is great, Thanks, guys. My two-pennies worth: The D= uchy was traded off as worthless border land by the crown to a family in = return for central lands viewed as more valuable by the ruling family. Th= e crown might well have thought 'Duke Stefan can have it and any time we = want it, we can take it back.' It only survived one generation as a Duchy= before becoming a kingdom, which in feudal terms, when wars were fought = for 30+ years, is no time at all. P.s Had to check my spelling; typed Du= cky by mistake TWICE! > --------- Original message ---------- > F= rom : "Mystara_server" > To : "Mystara" > Cc : Sent : Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:00:02= -0700 > Subject : MYSTARA-L Digest - 28 Sep 2009 to 29 Sep 2009 (#2009-= 59) > > There are 6 messages totalling 229 lines in this issue. > > = Topics of the day: > > 1. Review (Segue) on Monte Cook's World of D= arkness > 2. Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship (3) > 3. = My Projects > 4. Karameikos d20 -- Werewolves > > *****************= *************************************************** > The Other Worlds H= omepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepa= ge: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORAC= LE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- = > > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:51:55 -0700 > From: Joaquin Mencha= ca > Subject: Re: Review (Segue) on Monte Cook's = World of Darkness > > Scaevola, > > It is a good piece of work, def= initely worth it, as well as most things Monte Cook does. What's great i= s that there's his thoughts on how to convert material in general from WW= WoD, so it is great for idea. I like White Wolf material for the readin= gs, the material for the meta-physics behind spirits, werewolves, fey, va= mpires, etc. Other stuff like Mage the Ascension was great in how it tol= d of fabric tapestry of the universe gets woven, making breaking a the th= reads (defying laws of universe with magic) causes problems, but in the p= ast, there was it was more loose and magic was common. This so fits in w= ith Mystara, and IMHO think it is the same, just that it is well written.= > > - Joaquin > > > > *****************************= *************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: htt= p://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://w= ww.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.C= OM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > -----------= ------------------- > > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:16:48 -0700 > Fr= om: Joaquin Menchaca > Subject: Re: Grand Duch= y and Thyatian Empire Relationship > > My comments weren't necessarily= on the reading, interpretation, etc. I am confirming that it states Kar= ameikos is autonomous. However, I am questioning the plausibility of thi= s. > > I am not aware of such a situation in real world's history. = I think it defies human nature, and how governments and notion of soverei= gnty works. Karameikos, with the title of "Grand Duchy" is by nature a s= ubordinate territory. The the Emperor and Karameikos III could have some= sort of arrangement to be the un-Duchy Duchy, but this wouldn't hold wat= er... > > For one, if Karameikos stopped paying taxes, it could be dis= astrous for all the Empire. I think it would cause revolt and other area= s to attempt to succeed, or not pay taxes. Thyatis would loose a lot of = prestige and would have a hard time to maintain order. > > Also, Kar= ameikos has official senatorial representation, at least alluded to in B6= Veiled Society in one encounter. It would be most unusual, because Kara= meikos would (1) have senatorial representation without being taxed, and = (2) notion of having representation shows subordination. (PS - I am not = sure if the books clearly define what rights a Duchy or Grand Duchy has v= s. where the Empire overlaps. They did mention something about populatio= ns and some of this, but it was not very detailed) > > Even in the rea= l world, where nations were completely autonomous with separate cultures,= people, languages, lands, that have trade relationships or alliances, so= metimes have suzerainty between a greater empire, such as Chinese Sinocen= tric system or Ottomon Empire. I would imagine the very least, at some p= oint if/when Karameikos separates (note: my campaign is at GAZ1 before th= e war), it would have some sort of relationship like this, but it does no= t. > > Lastly, Thyatis has invested resources beyond just conquering K= arameikos, to secure the western borders. It may be that Karameikos III = did pay off the Emperor and more than compensated, but there needs to be = more details, for this situation I am not sure existed in our world socio= -economically in the past (I plead ignorance for Arabian, Indian, Europea= n, and also ancient Biblical histories, mostly specialize in East-Asian h= istory for my GE at college :) > > Has there been any incident where R= oman or Byzantine conquered a territory, and then gave one of its governo= rs or nobles the new territory and let it stay a separate nation? Both t= he GAZ1 and DoE indicate that, but the situation doesn't look like it cou= ld work. > > I think also, beside this not being plausible (and I kn= ow, I know the books said it happened), it could lead to collapse of Empi= re to have a vassal state buy its way out of the Empire and then to have = the Empire relinquish control or sovereignty of a piece of itself volunta= rily. > > So let's not talk that the books documented it so it must be= true, but think rationally about it. After that, I have some colorful i= deas... > > > > ****************************************= **************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wiz= ards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.= com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with = UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ----------------------= -------- > > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:24:43 -0700 > From: Joaq= uin Menchaca > Subject: My Projects > > This i= s what I am working on in the background, research, local campaign in Kor= ea, etc. > > o Karameikos d20 (Pathfinder) o Races - = add distinction to ethnicity & race (DnD3e doesn't) > - regional fe= ats > - paragon or race levels > - my homegrown gypsie, elven= clans (Linarii, Selenii, etc.), > Spartan Calarii, Jedi Vyalia = > o Gothic Horror > - fear, horror, madness/sanity rules > = o NPCs/Stories > - detail colorful NPCs for use in campaign > = - some adventures in Karameikos > - my spreadsheets i created aut= omates some of this > o Campaign > - once I finished, might put= out guide how to string up a > bunch of published classics and = place them in Mystara > o Werewolves > - major undertaking to d= efine kick-ass scary customized werewolves > - other were creatures= > o Fey - DnD3e Mystara Fey, and how to play Fey as PCs > = o Sylvan/Monstrous Races > - Descriptions to play other races in= Karameikos > > > > ************************************= ******************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www= .wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pand= ius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > w= ith UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------= ------------ > > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:41:10 -0700 > From: = Joaquin Menchaca > Subject: Karameikos d20 -- Wer= ewolves > > Here's some thoughts on this: > There are at least 3= ways to become a Werewolf: (1) natural birth, (2) afflicted, (3) magical= creation. > > In the later, I was going to bunch Alphatian and magica= l created ones (as they were based off of Alphatian variety) in one categ= ory, and nickname them lupina (Lupinus-Alphatius). The magically created= ones have the ability to curse others with an affliction. This is an ex= periment gone bad, and this was not the case in the original stock ages a= go. These Werewolves follow the cycle of the visible moon Matera and are= vulnerable to silver. > > A native lycanthropey developed naturally o= n Mystara, and they are tied to Mystara's invisible moon. These ones are= not vulnerable to silver, but rather gold, and express different abiliti= es based on the cycle of Patera. These were creatures do not able to inf= lict a curse upon others. These particular creatures are tied to nature,= and commune with spirits of nature. > > Now this is just alpha materi= al sketch draft of ideas, to see what people think. > > - Joaquin Men= chaca > > > > ******************************************= ************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizar= ds.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.co= m > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UN= SUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------= ------ > > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:03:29 +0200 > From: Giampa= olo Agosta > Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatia= n Empire Relationship > > 2009/9/29 Joaquin Menchaca : > > My comments weren't necessarily on the reading, interpretatio= n, etc. =3DA0I=3D > am confirming that it states Karameikos is autonomo= us. =3DA0However, I am qu=3D > estioning the plausibility of this. > >= > > I am not aware of such a situation in real world's history. =3DA0I t= hink it=3D > defies human nature, and how governments and notion of sov= ereignty works. =3D > =3DA0Karameikos, with the title of "Grand Duchy" i= s by nature a subordinate t=3D > erritory. > > Well, for example the = Grand Duchy of Luxembourg is a sovereign Grand > Duchy in the real world= since the Congress of Vienna, detached from > the Empire. Earlier on, t= he Grand Duchy of Tuscany in central Italy > had a similar position, and= most of Italy detached from the Holy Roman > Empire piecewise during th= e late Middle Ages. > > Obviously, a strong Empire would not leave sec= eding states alone, but > a weak one (as Thyatis after the Spike Assault= ) could do so (e.g., the > Romans retired from Britain, leaving a Roman-= British noble class in > charge). Note thought that the Roman Empire was= never feudal, which is > not the case for Thyatis. The Holy Roman Empir= e survived many > secessions from regional states (see the cases of smal= l Italian states > above). > > GP > > ****************************= **************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: ht= tp://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://= www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.= COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ----------= -------------------- > > Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:52:16 +0800 > F= rom: Jason Murphy > Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and= Thyatian Empire Relationship > > Nice work guys. I love this kinda hi= storical discussion. Always good to > learn new stuff :-) > > On Tue,= Sep 29, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: = > > > 2009/9/29 Joaquin Menchaca : > > > My comm= ents weren't necessarily on the reading, interpretation, etc. I > > am = confirming that it states Karameikos is autonomous. However, I am > > q= uestioning the plausibility of this. > > > > > > I am not aware of such= a situation in real world's history. I think it > > defies human natur= e, and how governments and notion of sovereignty works. > > Karameikos,= with the title of "Grand Duchy" is by nature a subordinate > > territor= y. > > > > Well, for example the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg is a soverei= gn Grand > > Duchy in the real world since the Congress of Vienna, detac= hed from > > the Empire. Earlier on, the Grand Duchy of Tuscany in centr= al Italy > > had a similar position, and most of Italy detached from the= Holy Roman > > Empire piecewise during the late Middle Ages. > > > > = Obviously, a strong Empire would not leave seceding states alone, but > = > a weak one (as Thyatis after the Spike Assault) could do so (e.g., the= > > Romans retired from Britain, leaving a Roman-British noble class in= > > charge). Note thought that the Roman Empire was never feudal, which = is > > not the case for Thyatis. The Holy Roman Empire survived many > = > secessions from regional states (see the cases of small Italian states= > > above). > > > > GP > > > > *************************************= ******************************* > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://ww= w.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.p= andius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM= > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > = > -- > "I hope to set an example, you know, for children and stuff" - C= aptain > Hammer > > *************************************************= ******************* > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/= dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To= unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYS= TARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------= > > End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 28 Sep 2009 to 29 Sep 2009 (#2009-59) > = *************************************************************** > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:39:16 -0400 From: Kveld Ulf Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship The situation with Karameikos vis-a-vis Thyatis as described in canon is not actually that far fetched when one keeps in mind the governments involved. As described, Thyatis is a sot of funky hybrid between Roman-Byzantine imperialism and feudalism. It has both senators and nobles (the senators being likely drawn from the nobility) who operate under the rule of the emperor (who would in turn be backed by the military and a bureacracy of tax collectors, etc.). Thyatis as a state is a mix of three ethnic groups (tribes) - the Thyatians, Kerendans and Hattians. The mostly likely development of these three groups given the end result would be similar to the Romans. The Thyatian tribes early on set up an empire in which nobles from all three tribes contribute to the senate, with an emperor as overall top dog. This idea of an emperor in early Thyatia might be closer to the historical model as the "king of kings" (in this case, each of the three tribes has a king and nobility, and the reigning emperor is the feudal superior of the three kings). The senate is composed of nobles from all three tribes, which in turn advises the "king of kings" on matters relevant to all three tribes. The core state of Thyatia does not have a representative system despite the implications of a "senate" - the senate is merely a body where the nobility represent their interests to the emperor, not anything to do with the "unwashed masses". As Thyatia adds provinces, these are not represented either - they are conquered, made into provinces, and then subjected to either taxation, tribute at the government level, or both under the control of a governor (perhaps proconsul) appointed by the emperor. In the early Roman system, former consuls were sent to govern provinces with the expectation that assisted by independent "tax farmers" they would loot the privincials of as much as they could without triggering a revolt. Thyatis might be more or less benign, depending on the reigning emperor and Thyatis' military standing. Anyway.. Centuries later, you have an extremely powerful noble - Stephan Karameikos. He is powerful enough to launch a political (and perhaps military) challenge to the reigning emperor but chooses not to. Instead of staying in the Thyatian box, he makes a bargain with the emperor - in exchange for giving up his native lands, he will conquer Karameikos using his own forces (something the empire cannot currently afford to do for whatever reason - otherwise occupied, weak military, etc.). The new province will enjoy a unique relationship with Thyatis as a Grand Duchy. The terms include Karameikos and his heirs guaranteed to rule the new province in perpetuity (no governors from the empire), relative autonomy so long as they protect the western flank of Thyatis (freeing up imperial troops for action against the main enemy Alphatia as well as foreign adventurism in the Hinterlands and elsewhere), the responsibility to provide troops to Thyatis when called, and likely some form of annual tribute. This sort of arrangement fixes all sort of problems - the emperor disposes of a potential major rival (by packing him off to another land), secures his western border, gets some extra tax/tribute income, and develops a potential source of additional manpower. For the Grand Duke, he gets his own land free of most imperial meddling with a relatively modest burden as far as tribute in money and/or troops to the mother country. That's how I've always seen the relationship, which would make pretty good sense for all parties involved (excepting the Traladarans of course, who end up occupied by foreigners). Andy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 05:04:58 -0700 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship Thank you so much. With this, I have some things I can look into and narrow my research. It is great. What I was thinking is tweaking the relationship a little, so that Thyatis is always looming there, but Karameikos is semi-autonomous, and then finding colorful ways to move it toward autonomy, to full independence. I want the Thyatian impact felt more, and then go with the GAZ in that people are feeling united. Though I would not want to gloss over it lightly, people don't just give up their culture, and superior group (education, might, wealth, etc.) is not going to just embrace what they deem as inferior, though it has happened, (Norse Viking rulers assimilated to Slavic indigenous people in early Russia). Realistic strife and dimension and of course, PC adventures. Again thank you so much for history mentions, that stuff gets me excited. - Joaquin ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 08:20:44 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship There is another point to be made. Since Stefan Karmameikos had the power to sweep in to a hilly forested land full of monsters and warrior-filled city-states and take over (in my campaign I actually wrote out how this happened, since one of my PCs was involved), it is likely that the Emperor made a play to keep Karameikos within his sphere of influence by saying something like, "Look Stefan, you can establish this new land of yours; you have the power. What you do not have is the sustainability from a political perspective. There will be challenges to your rule, and you will be at constant war for years. This will make me look bad, too; like I cannot control one of my Dukes. Bad for you, bad for me. Instead, we have this deal, you become the Grand Duke and we establish this semi-official link between us. You agree to protect our western flank, supply troops if needed, an agreement not to attempt to gain any of our territory; we provide you with an iron-clad level of political stability, at least from outsiders..." George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joaquin Menchaca" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:04 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship > Thank you so much. With this, I have some things I can look into and narrow my research. It is great. > > What I was thinking is tweaking the relationship a little, so that Thyatis is always looming there, but Karameikos is semi-autonomous, and then finding colorful ways to move it toward autonomy, to full independence. I want the Thyatian impact felt more, and then go with the GAZ in that people are feeling united. Though I would not want to gloss over it lightly, people don't just give up their culture, and superior group (education, might, wealth, etc.) is not going to just embrace what they deem as inferior, though it has happened, (Norse Viking rulers assimilated to Slavic indigenous people in early Russia). Realistic strife and dimension and of course, PC adventures. > > Again thank you so much for history mentions, that stuff gets me excited. > > - Joaquin > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:18:50 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship > Well, for example the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg is a sovereign Grand > Duchy in the real world since the Congress of Vienna, detached from > the Empire.=20 technically that's correct, but I fear it might be a bit misleading to some= one reading this, so let me attempt to clarify. It was made a grand duchy = by the congress of vienna, as you say, but it was not a sovereign G.D. unti= l the death of William III in 1890 when differing succession laws within Lu= xembourg vs. within the Netherlands resulted in its seperation from the Net= herlands as a sovereign G.D. (Luxembourg at the time still followed a Salic= style law where-by a woman could not succeed to the throne) Duke and Grand Duke can be used for either a sovereign or a non-sovereign t= itle. Duke, usually, means 'not sovereign' but often (but not always) with= some degree of autonomy, but there are exceptions. Grand Duke, usually, m= eans either 'sovereign' or some sort of 'semi-sovereign status', but again = there are exceptions. Then there is also the whole 'Grand Prince' title (m= ostly in Slavic language countries) which is usually commonly and widesprea= dly translated as 'grand duke'. The whole Grand Duke / Prince / Duke area = is on the boundary between sovereign-not-sovereign so there are lots of exa= mples falling on both sides of that fence (And particular cultures varied o= ver time as to which side of the boundary they considered that title to fal= l on). Many Grand Duchies were created by Napolean, and while technically independ= ent, they were in fact depent on france. many were created by the Congress of Vienna, some of which were sovereign (= but within the German Confederation), some were not (mostly holdings of for= eign powers within the German Confederation), and some were pseudo-sovereig= n (ie dominated by another power, ie Prussia) You already mentioned Tuscany and other such Italian statelets. Then you'v= e also got the unique situations of Finland, Lithuania, and (briefly IIRC) = Hungary. Burgundy was also sometimes (unofficialy) called a Grand Duchy at= it's height, IIRC, but it was never officially a G.D. > Obviously, a strong Empire would not leave seceding states alone, or unless they had a good reason, ie it was entrusted to a loyal sibling or= some such, but yes, rare and unusual indeed. > but > a weak one (as Thyatis after the Spike Assault) could do so=20 indeed. > =20 > Nice work guys. I love this kinda historical discussion. Always good to > learn new stuff :-) > =20 :) In cases like this there are so many exceptions to every rule that it i= s hard to discern generalities. GPW --=20 An Excellent Credit Score is 750=20 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 08:41:16 +0800 From: Jason Murphy Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship > > > > > > Nice work guys. I love this kinda historical discussion. Always good to > > learn new stuff :-) > > > > :) In cases like this there are so many exceptions to every rule that it > is hard to discern generalities. > > GPW > What i find so very amusing is i remember discussing the topic of Karameikan sovereignty in a considerably less sophisticated manner at age 14 or 15. My friends and i had just managed to get hold of the OD&D Expert Rules and were trying to make sense of the political structure of the Known World from the paltry few paragraphs contained in the rule books and X1: Isle of Dread. Now i am 37 and still witnessing the same discussion. But, i note, this discussion is considerably more informed and interesting. Wow that brings back some memories. The nostalgia is so thick i could cut it with a knife :-) -- An Excellent Credit Score is 750 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > -- "I hope to set an example, you know, for children and stuff" - Captain Hammer ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2009 to 30 Sep 2009 (#2009-60) ***************************************************************