Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 30 Sep 2009 to 1 Oct 2009 (#2009-61) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 02/10/2009, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 4 messages totalling 372 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship (3) 2. MYSTARA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2009 to 30 Sep 2009 (#2009-60) - Karameikos and Oceansend ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 09:16:27 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship Greg Weatherup wrote: >> Well, for example the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg is a sovereign >> Grand Duchy in the real world since the Congress of Vienna, >> detached from the Empire. > > technically that's correct, but I fear it might be a bit misleading > to someone reading this, so let me attempt to clarify. It was made a > grand duchy by the congress of vienna, as you say, but it was not a > sovereign G.D. until the death of William III in 1890 when differing > succession laws within Luxembourg vs. within the Netherlands resulted > in its seperation from the Netherlands as a sovereign G.D. > (Luxembourg at the time still followed a Salic style law where-by a > woman could not succeed to the throne) IIRC, Luxembourg and the Netherlands were in personal union before that time, which technically means it was independent, and shared its monarch with the Netherlands "by accident". > Duke and Grand Duke can be used for either a sovereign or a > non-sovereign title. Duke, usually, means 'not sovereign' but often > (but not always) with some degree of autonomy, but there are > exceptions. Originally, "Duke" was a title used by subordinate germanic chiefs in the Roman-Barbarian kingdoms. However, in Italy (especially central and southern Italy), Lombard dukes were essentially independent from the (weak) northern Italian crown. The Duke title was then used by city-state leaders ("doge"), both elected and dynastic. Italian states (including Duchies) were technically vassals of the Holy Roman Empire, but Tuscany was raised to the status of an independent Grand Duchy under the Medici. There were thereafter many sovereign duchies in Italy, up to the unification. G. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 03:09:47 -0700 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship Some questions: (1) What were the tax relations in RW for Grand Duchy? (2) What should be the tax relationions between GDoK and Thyatis (3) What would be repsonsibilities of GDoK, should Thyatis go to war? (4) What would be obligations of Thyatis should GDoK get invaded or need to quell a rebellion? Some ideas: (1) Duke SK II could still hold is originally holdings, and just pay to establish new relationship. He could have personal union between two states, maybe have a relative manage the ohter estates. (2) Duke could then later barter that territory for more automny with Karameikos. What could be interesting is political and military intrigue in either region could involve PCs in two areas, and have complex relationships between other states, such as a Baron in of of Duke's holdings, is a Baron in another holdings, etc. (3) Traladaran revolts with Thyatis involvment or not. (4) Five Shires migrates and potentially ceeds parts of Western Karameikos. (5) Naturally Black Eagle Barony intrigue (6) Karameikos declares independence, possible incursions from Thyatis, or cooperation (PC involvement here) (7) Desert Nomads thing (8) Have time period with more imperial Thyatis presence, and then later lesser Thyatis presence, and a devleoping unique Karameikan identity as Thyatians assimulate to Traldaran culture. (9) Popular revolts from Traladara, Robin Hoods, Monsterous and Fey revolts, etc. (10) Epic campaign.. the secret huge empire of Gnomes which is underground, mumuhuhuhahaha... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 12:30:30 -0400 From: Kveld Ulf Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2009 to 30 Sep 2009 (#2009-60) - Karameikos and Oceansend < Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship Thank you so much. With this, I have some things I can look into and narrow my research. It is great. What I was thinking is tweaking the relationship a little, so that Thyatis is always looming there, but Karameikos is semi-autonomous, and then finding colorful ways to move it toward autonomy, to full independence. I want the Thyatian impact felt more, and then go with the GAZ in that people are feeling united. Though I would not want to gloss over it lightly, people don't just give up their culture, and superior group (education, might, wealth, etc.) is not going to just embrace what they deem as inferior, though it has happened, (Norse Viking rulers assimilated to Slavic indigenous people in early Russia). Realistic strife and dimension and of course, PC adventures. Again thank you so much for history mentions, that stuff gets me excited. - Joaquin>> For what its worth, I'll put the northern kingdom (city state, really) of Oceansend forward as an example of a Thyatian spinoff state. In the canon Mystaran histories (CM1 Test of the Warlords, Dawn of the Emperors etc.) Oceansend is described as a former Thyatian colony, now independent. The population is only 40,000 (20,000 in the city and environs proper) and its way up in the north. From a strategic standpoint, an Oceansend colony makes good sense. Having a naval base up there gives you somewhere to operate from to monitor the northern shipping lanes and what's coming through the strait between the Isle of Dawn and Norwold. It makes a good counter to the (at the time) Alphatian colony of Helskir on the northern tip of the Isle of Dawn. In my Mystara, Oceansend (Mareterminus in native Thyatian, named so since the earliest Thyatians thought it was the northern end of the Ocean, similar to the reasoning behind the naming of the "Final Range" mountains) was founded as a naval base to operate against the Alphatians, as well as to support trade (including slaving operations) with the northern tribes. The base featured a small squadron of ships as well as a full legion of soldiery (10 cohorts plus attached Kerendan cavalry and dwarven mercenary engineers). Along with the legion, several thousand bureacrats, merchants, craftsmen, camp followers and what have you also immigrated to the colony in its first decade. As time went on, the troops inevitably began to "go native" - marrying local women, etc.; similarly, the local tribes began to get "Thyatianized" (like the Gauls and Britons became Romanized in our world). Although both groups kept their ethnic identity, they started to think of themselves as Oceansenders. As the colony became successful and prosperous, it remained under military rule (the legionary commander) rather than being assigned a governor, but since the legionary commanders were generally Thyatian nobility anyway this was a moot point. When the Alphatians smashed the Thyatian imperial center in the Spike attack, it looked like the empire was totally defeated. Faced with this probablility, the commander of the Oceansend garrison decided to declare autonomy to hopefully avoid being crushed by an Alphatian expeditionary force (instead negotiating with them as a neutral state). Not everyone in Oceansend agreed and there was a revolt by Thyatian loyalists; these were defeated and allowed to return by ship to Thyatis peacefully. When the dust settled and Thyatis still stood, it was an awkward situation. The now independent king of Oceansend could not simply "undeclare independence" and rejoin Thyatis, or he would face charges of treason and possible execution. The Alphatians could take the small kingdom themselves but were otherwise occupied and content to leave the tiny kingdom alone as a thorn in Thyatis' foreign policy. The Thyatians, still reeling from the aftermath of the Spike attack, were in no position to retake their old colony by force and risk a face-off with Alphatia, which would surely be drawn in. In my game, the Stormhaven dwarves were another wrinkle; they were a "lost colony" of dwarves from Rockhome who were blown off course enroute to Alphatia when there was a migration to that country. When the Thyatian troops discovered "lost dwarves" living in the mountains north of Oceansend, there was a sensation in Rockhome. With the Stormhaven dwarves firmly committed by treaty to aid Oceansend against attack, a Thyatian reconquest force which fought said dwarves would have risked Thyatis' relations with Rockhome, causing more problems it did not need. Just thought I'd throw that out there as a sort of comparitive study in former Thyatian colonies.. Andy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:38:16 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship Carl Matthews wrote: > Can I just add my agreement to what Jason said. I think learning historic= =3D > al nuggets like this is great, Thanks, guys. :) > My two-pennies worth: The D=3D > uchy was traded off as worthless border land by the crown to a family in = =3D > return for central lands viewed as more valuable by the ruling family. Th= =3D > e crown might well have thought 'Duke Stefan can have it and any time we = =3D > want it, we can take it back.'=20 yup, or more likely "... and if Stefan's successors get out of hand=20 we can retake it anytime" with Thincol not expecting any problem=20 from Stefan (his friend) himself... > P.s Had to check my spelling; typed Du=3D > cky by mistake TWICE! and a spell-check will not help there! ;) Kveld Ulf wrote: > As described, Thyatis is a sot of funky hybrid between Roman-Byzantine > imperialism and feudalism. It has both senators and nobles (the > senators being likely drawn from the nobility) who operate under the > rule of the emperor (who would in turn be backed by the military and a > bureacracy of tax collectors, etc.). very good discription, I believe.... > =20 > Thyatis as a state is a mix of three ethnic groups (tribes) - the > Thyatians, Kerendans and Hattians. The mostly likely development of > these three groups given the end result would be similar to the Romans. > The Thyatian tribes early on set up an empire in which nobles from all > three tribes contribute to the senate, with an emperor as overall top > dog. This idea of an emperor in early Thyatia might be closer to the > historical model as the "king of kings" (in this case, each of the > three tribes has a king and nobility, and the reigning emperor is the > feudal superior of the three kings). The senate is composed of nobles > from all three tribes, which in turn advises the "king of kings" on > matters relevant to all three tribes. > =20 A lot of this discription could perhaps fit Thyatis before the=20 Alphatian conquest. > The core state of Thyatia does not have a representative system despite > the implications of a "senate" - the senate is merely a body where the > nobility represent their interests to the emperor, not anything to do > with the "unwashed masses".=20 of course, a good distinction to spell out given the modern=20 connotation of the word. > As Thyatia adds provinces, these are not > represented either - they are conquered, made into provinces, and then > subjected to either taxation, tribute at the government level, or both > under the control of a governor (perhaps proconsul) appointed by the > emperor.=20 For the provinces/protectorates specifically yes. Of course with=20 Thyatis you've got the complications of the Vyalia, the Dwarves,=20 the Ochaleans, the Nuari, etc. to consider how they fit in to the=20 structure. > Anyway.. Centuries later, you have an extremely powerful noble - > Stephan Karameikos. He is powerful enough to launch a political (and > perhaps military) challenge to the reigning emperor but chooses not to. > Instead of staying in the Thyatian box, he makes a bargain with the > emperor - in exchange for giving up his native lands, he will conquer > Karameikos using his own forces (something the empire cannot currently > afford to do for whatever reason - otherwise occupied, weak military, > etc.). The new province will enjoy a unique relationship with Thyatis > as a Grand Duchy. The terms include Karameikos and his heirs guaranteed > to rule the new province in perpetuity (no governors from the empire), > relative autonomy so long as they protect the western flank of Thyatis > (freeing up imperial troops for action against the main enemy Alphatia > as well as foreign adventurism in the Hinterlands and elsewhere), the > responsibility to provide troops to Thyatis when called, and likely > some form of annual tribute. Just how much conquering is needed (given that Traladara has been a=20 conquered protectorate for about a century already) would depend on=20 the tone and needs of the particular DM's campaign (ie how much law=20 and order should there be outside of the capital).=20=20 What I wonder is how the Vyalia view(ed) all of this? Years of=20 peaceful coexistance and cooperation with the Thyatians, but now=20 there seem to be making a land grab and surrounding us? George Hrabovsky wrote: =20=20 > There is another point to be made. Since Stefan Karmameikos had the power= to > sweep in to a hilly forested land full of monsters and warrior-filled > city-states and take over=20 see my above post for a potential (or not!), issue with this. > snipped the rest cool.. I wrote: just to clarify something I wrote- > ... and some were pseudo-sovereign (ie dominated by another=20 > power, ie Prussia) I wasn't trying to imply that Prussia was a G.D., but rather that=20 Prussia was an example of another power doing the dominating of=20 some of the G.D.'s. Just wanted to clear that up given how it came=20 out sounding. :) Jason Murphy wrote: > =20 > What i find so very amusing is i remember discussing the topic of Karamei= kan > sovereignty in a considerably less sophisticated manner at age 14 or 15. = My > friends and i had just managed to get hold of the OD&D Expert Rules and > were trying to make sense of the political structure of the Known World= =20 lol. sounds like good friends for such a conversation. :) --=20 An Excellent Credit Score is 750=20 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 30 Sep 2009 to 1 Oct 2009 (#2009-61) **************************************************************