Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Oct 2009 to 3 Oct 2009 (#2009-63) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 04/10/2009, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 6 messages totalling 316 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Karameikos and Oceansend 2. Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship 3. Thyatia and her provinces 4. Grand Duke title (2) 5. Good First Run (Falcon's Hollow near Riverfork Keep) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 03:09:55 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Karameikos and Oceansend Kveld Ulf wrote: > =20 > For what its worth, I'll put the northern kingdom (city state, really) > of Oceansend forward > as an example of a Thyatian spinoff state. It is probably the best example, though to an extent you could also use Hel= skir or Ierendi. > =20 > =20 > In my Mystara, Oceansend (Mareterminus in native Thyatian, named so > since the earliest Thyatians thought it was > the northern end of the Ocean, similar to the reasoning behind the > naming of the "Final Range" mountains) ... ohh, nice touch with the name concept, I'll have to remember that one. > =20 > With the Stormhaven dwarves firmly committed > by treaty to aid Oceansend against attack, a Thyatian reconquest force > which fought said dwarves would have risked Thyatis' > relations with Rockhome, causing more problems it did not need. not to mention Buhrodhur (sp?) --=20 An Excellent Credit Score is 750=20 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 03:35:10 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship My attempts at sending my Luxembourg post still don't seem to be going thro= ugh, lets see if this message comes through... Joaquin Menchaca wrote: > =20 > Most elves wouldn't press the issue, as they are outside the law of=20 > either Thyatis or Karameikos,=20 agreed. > but there may be a day when they have=20 > to deal with the matter, especially if both became antagonistic,=20 > with Karameikos inviting Alphatian mages to help build their school=20 > of magic. I don't follow why specifically the invitation of a few Alphatian mages to = Karameikos would effect the Vyalia? The Alphatians are not notably elf hat= ers (just look at Shiye-Lawr) > =20 > Some elves more involved and knowledgeable of Human politics, would=20 > imagine their lands to be a separate nation, outside of Thyatis and=20 > Karameikos control, so the Karameikan borders would exclude some=20 > the forests and this is the same issue with Thyatis. Those more=20 > adept in politics would declare that part of Vyalia is indeed a=20 > conty, while the Western part is a separate state, than spans into=20 > Karameikos. nice elements of RW Burgundy there (ie Franche-Comte) > =20 > In any event, most won't press the issue, as long as they are left alone. > again, agreed. --=20 An Excellent Credit Score is 750=20 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 04:00:05 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Thyatia and her provinces does the MML have some sort of filter that blocks posts with RW country nam= es in the subject line? I've tried 3 times to send my Luxembourg post with= no result and yet my last message in the thyatis-karameikos thread went th= rough within seconds. Kveld Ulf wrote: > =20 > On reflection, the Holy Roman Empire (HRH) might again be a good > reference for the > Thyatian senate. While the origins of the senate were a council of > tribal leaders > advising the emperor, by the time period of the Gazetteers the senate > is an > unelected body of nobility who advise the emperor. The "modern senate" > of > Thyatis would thus be similar to the Electors of the HRH. I think you mean the Reichstag or "Imperial Assembly"*. If so, I mostly ag= ree, though I think the Thyatian senate one should have somewhat more power= and influence than the HRE's Imperial Assembly did, but as an inspiration = I definately agree. *The Imperial Electors were one of the three councils of the Reichstag (it = was, on paper, a tricameral -or three chambered - system) > =20 > Don't remember it being specifically stated in canon how the succession > of the > Thyatian empire works. The defaults would be either hereditary or force > of arms (coup) > by rival claimants, but you could actually go with the senate selecting > the emperor from > their ranks (the old emperor's heirs would of course be both nobles and > senators).=20 here you could go with either HRE style OR Roman style, both have lots of i= ntrique possibilities. We've previously had a long discussion and worked o= ut what I think is a very good history of the Thyatian emperor's (http://ww= w.pandius.com/thyempr.html), but more could easily be added or many alterna= tives be suggested (and were) > Aside > from the electors of the HRH, another good mental model to use would be > the selection > of the Pope by the Council of Cardinals. hmm... then perhaps you did mean the Electors above. Could you elaborate w= hich you meant? > =20 > In fact, that could make for a fun scenario for high level characters, > particularly if some of them > have acquired Thyatian titles and possibly senate seats (or they have > friends / allies in that position). > The old emperor dies, and the succession scramble begins as rival > claimants maneuver by means fair and > foul to get voted in by the senate. Would make a good intrigue thread > for those who dig > intrigue and skullduggery. > =20 yup. Probably more 'foul' going on than 'fair', given the Thyatian charact= er ;)=20=20 --=20 An Excellent Credit Score is 750=20 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 04:20:14 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Grand Duke title I just came across another interesting reference about Grand Dukes. Its pa= rt of an old file I had saved off the internet long ago (Val Rozn's site, a= nyone familiar with it?) that SEEMS well researched, but no specific source= s are given. Does anyone know if the following is accurate? It talks about the Grand Duke title as follows- 18th century- Tuscany and Lithuania bore the title, both lost their possess= ions by the end of the century. Napoleon's Rhine Confederation: many of the states who joined were given hi= gher titles by Napoleon, and all who joined belonged to either the Confeder= ations College of Kings or its College of Princes. The College of Kings, d= espite the name, included both Kings and the Grand Duchies (Baden, Hesse-Da= rmstadt, Berg, W=FCrzburg, Frankfurt). The Congress of Vienna gave the title to 8 more places- 4 independent ones = (Saxony-Weimar, Oldenburg, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, and Mecklenburg-Strelitz) = and 4 which belonged to other powers namely Luxembourg -> Netherlands, Pozn= an -> Prussia, Lower Rhine -> Prussia, and even Fulda which is listed as be= longing to the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel - but the last would mean the seco= ndary title (Fulda) was higher (Grand Duchy) than the primary title (H.-Kas= sel, a landgraveate {sp?} which would be somewhere between a count and a ma= rgrave IIRC). It also claims that the Finland example I gave previously was actually a 'G= rand Prince' title (Storfurste till Finland) and claims that the Austrian m= onarchy in Transylvania was also a 'Grand Prince' (Gro=DFf=FCrst von Sieben= b=FCrgen / Erd=E9ly nagyfejedelme). Does anyone know how acurate that all is? --=20 An Excellent Credit Score is 750=20 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 12:01:51 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Grand Duke title 2009/10/3 Greg Weatherup : > > The Congress of Vienna gave the title to 8 more places- 4 independent one= s (Saxony-Weimar, Oldenburg, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, and Mecklenburg-Strelitz= ) and 4 which belonged to other powers namely Luxembourg -> Netherlands, Po= znan -> Prussia, Lower Rhine -> Prussia, and even Fulda which is listed as = belonging to the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel - but the last would mean the se= condary title (Fulda) was higher (Grand Duchy) than the primary title (H.-K= assel, a landgraveate {sp?} which would be somewhere between a count and a = margrave IIRC). According to Wikipedia, after the Congress of Vienna, the Landgrave of Hessen changed his title to Grand Duke. At this time, the Landgrave of Hessen was already an Elector Prince. A landgrave was basically an independent count (i.e., a direct vassal of the elected Emperor), thus comparable to a duke rather than a common count. Due to the elective nature of the Emperor position in the Holy Roman Empire, and the evolution of other titles, German (and Italian) noble titles were more difficult to rank consistently -- in general, however, an elector ranked above non-electors, and independent vassals of the Emperor ranked above other nobles (vassals of the Kings, Dukes, Margraves and other nobles of the Empire). For example, the Count Palatine was about the highest ranking noble beside the Emperor. > It also claims that the Finland example I gave previously was actually a = 'Grand Prince' title (Storfurste till Finland) and claims that the Austrian= monarchy in Transylvania was also a 'Grand Prince' (Gro=DFf=FCrst von Sieb= enb=FCrgen / Erd=E9ly nagyfejedelme). Indeed, but neither of these was an independent state, and the Grand Prince title was simply one of the secondary titles of the monarch. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 06:50:33 -0700 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: Good First Run (Falcon's Hollow near Riverfork Keep) My group in Korea met 3 times, first 2 were character creation, last one they just killed 3 mangy dogs that were having a gruesome tug-a-war with pieces of a beastman (bugbear), and in searching the area, Kallendros (Vyalian Elven Ranger) finds a magical dagger. The party enters into a inn in the town called Falcons Hollow, near Riverfork Keep, called The Sitting Duck. A table of mercenaries from Black Eagle Barony sits near the party, and another table is an archeologist with some onlookers. One mercenaries strikes the party and a brawl break out. They pummel the party into submission, but the town sheriff breaks it up, confiscates the dagger to determine the rightful party in the morning. The party and mercenaries stay in house arrest over night. The next morning the dagger is stolen and the one of the party was accused. They party question the witness, look at physical evidence and find the dagger hidden in a barn watched over by an owl. They soon discover that it was a gnomish merchant that took the dagger. Later the party are interviewed by the sheriff and given an ultimatum. Many artifacts were destroyed by the professor, and he made an arrangement that whatever team can complete a mission for the doctor, the mercenary band, or the party, will get the rights to the magical dagger. The mercenary band had a head-start, but the party choose to lay ambush and wait for their return, considering that they think the mercenary band would do the same. Two of the party trail the sheriff around town following them on his rounds. They learn of a wolf that has been attacking children, a disease that has recently struck the town, and that a merchant that seems to be spying on the party. They also learn more about the dagger, that it was own by infamous Beastman Hunter called Grung Knifetongue, and that the mercenaries might have purchased the dagger from Grung's cousin. They also learn of ancient civilization of dwarves that lived in the mountains, and ancient tree, and a witch that lived in the forest, and they know of darkwood lumbering operations inside the forest. The dwarf might have been intrigued as he was sent here to investigate this, but hey wasn't paying much attention, but the Vyalian elf is an herbalist and highly interested in the Elderwood Moss, said to grow in this parts. He was sent here to collect some. Other missions before the party met here, was that the Calarii elf was investigating some famous wine that grows in the vicinity, a human Paladin was checking out the areas for potential misguided Traladaran cultists, a gnome investigating sources of darkwood for the Brewmaestro clan, and a human Traladaran ranger that is investigating potential activities of lycanthropy for his secret order (affiliated with Zirchev). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Oct 2009 to 3 Oct 2009 (#2009-63) *************************************************************