Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Oct 2009 to 4 Oct 2009 (#2009-64) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 05/10/2009, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There is 1 message totalling 72 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Grand Duke title ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 23:15:50 -0500 From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Grand Duke title Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > =20 > 2009/10/3 Greg Weatherup : > > > >... even Fulda which is listed as =3D > >belonging to the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel - but the last would mean the= se=3D > >condary title (Fulda) was higher (Grand Duchy) than the primary title (H= .-K=3D > >assel, a landgraveate {sp?} which would be somewhere between a count and= a =3D > >margrave IIRC). > =20 > According to Wikipedia, after the Congress of Vienna, the Landgrave of > Hessen changed his title to Grand Duke. At this time, the Landgrave of > Hessen was already an Elector Prince. oh yeah, thats right, Hesse-Kassel continued to claim the Prince-Elector di= gnity, even though the empire was gone and there was nothing to elect. Pro= bably insisted on keeping to keep more even with its rival, Hesse-Darmstadt= , which was a Grand Duke and the Ducal Hesse you are refering to. > A landgrave was basically an independent count (i.e., a direct vassal > of the elected Emperor), thus comparable to a duke rather than a > common count. yeah, its hard to say how a landgrave compares to say a march count or a du= ke or even to a count-palatine, they all seem to have elements of ducal sta= tus. Of course then how does a burgraf (roughly "city-count") or wildgraf = (roughly "wilderness count") or any of the other ___graf's compare to an or= dinary count in terms of power and prestige? > Due to the elective nature of the Emperor position in the Holy Roman > Empire, and the evolution of other titles, German (and Italian) noble > titles were more difficult to rank consistently -- in general, > however, an elector ranked above non-electors, and independent vassals > of the Emperor ranked above other nobles (vassals of the Kings, Dukes, > Margraves and other nobles of the Empire). well said. > > It also claims that the Finland example I gave previously was actually = a =3D > >'Grand Prince' title (Storfurste till Finland)=20 > =20 > Indeed, but neither of these was an independent state, and the Grand > Prince title was simply one of the secondary titles of the monarch. > =20 then was Finland a Grand Ducal title when it was held by the Russian Tsar? = or was that a 'Grand Prince' title as well? --=20 An Excellent Credit Score is 750=20 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Oct 2009 to 4 Oct 2009 (#2009-64) *************************************************************