Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 5 Oct 2009 to 6 Oct 2009 (#2009-66) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 07/10/2009, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 3 messages totalling 469 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship 2. one more try... (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:30:57 -0400 From: Gecko G Subject: Re: Grand Duchy and Thyatian Empire Relationship ok, I follow you now. =20 Good issues (and potential plot points) indeed. GPW ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:54:52 -0400 From: Gecko G Subject: one more try... trying yet again to send the luxembourg info.... gp wrote: > IIRC, Luxembourg and the Netherlands were in personal union before that= =20 time, which technically means it was independent, and shared its monarch= =20 with the Netherlands "by accident". Well on paper, sure, it was officially sovereign, autonomous, and equal to= /from the Dutch Kingdom, but it was clearly a far inferior and subordinate= "partner" in reality (even more so than say Wales wrt England or Finland= wrt Sweden - the only unequal examples I can think of off the top of my= head a the moment) and it was more controlled by Prussia, France, and Bel= gium than it was by the Dutch King.? By treaty it was supposed to be seper= ate from the Netherlands (and a part of Germany) but William I integrated= it into the Netherlands as any other province.? It was only some time lat= er (possibly with the 1841 constitution or the 1868 reform, I couldn't fin= d out when exactly) that it was set up with a seperate government (outside= of the netherlands but still under the King/Grand Duke) Looking up some of the time line- 1813-1815: defeat of Napoleon leads to the Congress of Vienna.? At the tim= e the lands of Luxembourg were claimed by Prussia, France, & more distantl= y by the Prince of Orange-Nassau.?=20 They attempted to make a buffer state to dissuade france from aggresively= rising again, and so they united Holland, the rest of the netherlands, th= e Austrian [South] Netherlands (modern Belgium), Luxembourg, and a diverse= collection of small ent ities (Limburg & etc.) into a new, supposedly strong, kingdom of the [Unit= ed] Netherlands, under the Prince of Orange, to dissuade France should it= look to expand in that direction. The Prince of Orange gave up his share of various Nassau lands and Prussia= got about 24% of the territory of Luxembourg and in turn the reduced Luxe= mbourg was given to the Dutch King as a G.D. (amongst the other lands ment= ioned), but Luxembourg was part of the German Confederation and its defens= e was the responsibilty of Prussia and its notable fortifications were gar= rissoned by Prussian (and Hessian) troops.=20 So effectively it went from being a French occupied territory to a Prussia= occupied one. Some sources indicate that, though the personal union was implied as an eq= ual personal union (and not a placement of the G.D. under and within the= kingdom) that with the return of Napoleon and the chaos of the 100 days,= it was never specifically spelled out as such in any written treaty until= the Treaty of London, but I could find good confirmation if that is true= or not. 1830s: Belgium revolts from the Netherlands and with popular support takes= Luxembourg except for the prussian held fortresses (Belgium also takes Li= mburg).? At the London Conference, at first (1830) the issue of the status= of Luxembourg was agreed to be decided at a later time because the great= powers could not come to agreement.? By 1831 the partiton of Luxembourg= was agreed to by the Conference, but not by the Netherlands and so (among= st other reasons ) the war dragged on till 1839 1839 (1st) Treaty of London ending the Belgian-Dutch civil war (if civil= war is the right term?): 65% of the Grand Ducal territory, and half it's= population, was lost to the new Belgian province of Luxembourg (aka Waals= -Luxembourg), rest returned to Netherlands but it was now an exclave of th= e Dutch King (meaning it did not border the Netherlands) and it is still= part of Germany.? (Limburg similarily split roughly in half and the dutch= part also made a part of the German Confederation and this time as the "r= estored" duchy of Limburg as an effectivly Prussian puppet*).? Luxembourg= specifically stated as an independent Grand Duchy in personal union with= the king of the Netherlands *=3DThough technically 2 cities remained outside of the German Confederati= on, all very complicated. 1840s/1850s: To try to reduce growing French and Belgian influence in the= exclave, the King further pushes it into integration with Germany - ie Lu= xembourg joined the Zollverein (the Prussia dominated German Customs Union= that tightly linked the central german economies together) 1860s Luxembourg was a negotiating carrot between France and Prussia/Germa= ny, though no deals ever formalized (note: what I read made it sound as if= the dutch king apparently wasn't even consulted!). 1865-1867: Once Prussia defeated Austria and became dominate within German= y, neither France nor Prussia wanted the other to have the strategic forti= fications in Luxembourg, and they almost went to war over the issue (at on= e point France tried to circumvent the negotiations with the Prussians and approached the Dutc= h king and offered to outright buy the Grand Duchy, it was only Prussian= and British* objections that prevented the king from agreeing to the sale= ).? Austria, Russia, and the UK all tried to mediate, including repeated= suggestions that the remainder of Luxembourg should go to Belgium. *=3DThe British feared for what would happen to their ally Belgium if the= important fortifications on the Belgian flank became French 1866/1867 (2nd) Treaty of London: It was finally decided to keep the G.D.= as part of the German zollverein but it would not become part of the new= North German Confederation, it remained technically under the King of the= Netherlands*, but it was to be eternally neutral and demilitarized- The= Prussian troops were removed and they pulled down the walls of the famed= mighty fortresses. (France and Prussia still went to war anyway, for slig= htly different reasons, in 1870, but true to the treaty, Luxembourg was ke= pt out of that fighting, and later it was not made part of the German Empi= re though it did remain part of the Zollverein).? It's "eternally neutral"= clause remained until 1948 (when it joined NATO).? Limburg also fully int= egrated into Netherlands at this time (no longer within Germany). *=3Dnow specifically stated, along with Limburg, as being "integral parts= of the Kingdom of the Netherlands" thus no longer even technically a pers= onal union, though the wikipedia article is self-contratictory in this reg= ard. 1890: seperation a nd final sovereignty.? Ironically to Adolph of Nassau who had lost Nassau= to Prussia in 1866 after he supported the wrong side in the Prussian-Aust= rian struggle for control of Germany. turn of century: development of coal, iron, and steel resources WWI: While still 'officially' neutral, Luxembourg was 'unofficially' occup= ied by Germany 1918/1919: After WWI luxembourg forcibly removed from the German sphere of= influence (ie withdrawn from the Zollverein, revokment of railway concess= ions, etc.).? legislative vote to disband the G.D. and join with Belgium= fails 11-29 (other sources give a closer result 19-21-3).? Plebisite foun= d 77.8% in favor of remaining indepenent under the current ruling family. 1921/1922: Customs Union w/Belgium WWII: Luxembourg occupied by, and forcably integrated into, Nazi Germany,= dispite it's offical neutrality. 1940s/1950s: BeNeLux economic integration, Treaty of Rome and the Benelux= Customs & Monetary Union, co-founder of the EEC, all pre-cursors of the= European Union, also joined UN and NATO So Luxembourg was essentially a bit of a hot potatoe juggled by Prussia an= d France which both sides wanted but the Dutch king usually ended up holdi= ng it by default because neither of the big two could stand the other to= control it (though effectively Prussia did in all but name).? After it fi= nally lost its military importance and started to have some economic poten= tial (thanks in large part to the improvements in the industrial sector of= the economy under the zollverein) it was essentialy, at best, a neutr al territory between France, Belgium, and Prussia/Germany or, at worst, a= Prussian economic dependency, despite being, on paper, a holding of the= Dutch king.? It was only after the seperation that it started to become= truely independent, unfortunately that was just in time to suffer in the= world wars (It has recovered nicely since then though, and is among one= of the richest countries in the world nowadays). Luxembourg is one of those countries who's history is full of externally= driven conflict because it is on a geographic boundary zone- historically= , culturally, religiously, and linguistically.? Between the lower lorraine= and the low countries to the north, upper lorraine and swabia to the sout= h.? Between Germania to the East and Francia to the west and previously be= tween the Roman empire and German tribes.? Religiously between Catholic an= d Protestant and Calvanist.? Linguistically between Low German, High Germa= n, Dutch, and French.? It is only after it had its own ruler, and only in= modern Europe, with europe's reduced importance on borders and divisions,= that it has been able to thrive.? Ironically, it is now, in a sense, at= the center of Europe (politically and economically speaking within the EU= , Eurozone, & etc., and even militarily if you consider NATO) main sources consulted: Black, DK Atlas of World History: Mapping the Human Journey (2001) de Blij & Muller, Geography: Relams, Regions and concepts 2000, 9th editio= n (2000) Brigham and McFarlane, Essentials of Geography revised edition (1925) Chow Ka Fat: A20chronology of the ruling parties of the world (online) Crawley, C.W.: The New Cambridge modern history, volume 9- War and peace= in an age of upheaval, 1793-1830 (1979) Haywood, Historical Atlas of the 19th Century World 1783-1914 (2002) Kinder and Hilgemann, The Anchor Atlas of World History volume II (1978) Maclagan, Lines of Succession: Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe (2= 002) O'Brien, Philip's Atlas of World History (2001) Ross, Friesian school: Philosophy of History website (online) Wikipedia (online) and a travel guide book at the library (I don't remember which one), and= maybe also a few others that I forgot. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 13:15:30 +0800 From: Jason Murphy Subject: Re: one more try... Now THATS what i am talkin 'bout. A damned interesting read. Thanks :-) On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Gecko G wrote: > trying yet again to send the luxembourg info.... > > > > gp wrote: > > >IIRC, Luxembourg and the Netherlands were in personal union before that > time, which technically means it was independent, and shared its monarch > with the Netherlands "by accident". > > > Well on paper, sure, it was officially sovereign, autonomous, and equal > to/from the Dutch Kingdom, but it was clearly a far inferior and subordinate > "partner" in reality (even more so than say Wales wrt England or Finland wrt > Sweden - the only unequal examples I can think of off the top of my head a > the moment) and it was more controlled by Prussia, France, and Belgium than > it was by the Dutch King.? By treaty it was supposed to be seperate from the > Netherlands (and a part of Germany) but William I integrated it into the > Netherlands as any other province.? It was only some time later (possibly > with the 1841 constitution or the 1868 reform, I couldn't find out when > exactly) that it was set up with a seperate government (outside of the > netherlands but still under the King/Grand Duke) > > > > Looking up some of the time line- > > 1813-1815: defeat of Napoleon leads to the Congress of Vienna.? At the time > the lands of Luxembourg were claimed by Prussia, France, & more distantly by > the Prince of Orange-Nassau.? > > They attempted to make a buffer state to dissuade france from aggresively > rising again, and so they united Holland, the rest of the netherlands, the > Austrian [South] Netherlands (modern Belgium), Luxembourg, and a diverse > collection of small ent > ities (Limburg & etc.) into a new, supposedly strong, kingdom of the > [United] Netherlands, under the Prince of Orange, to dissuade France should > it look to expand in that direction. > > The Prince of Orange gave up his share of various Nassau lands and Prussia > got about 24% of the territory of Luxembourg and in turn the reduced > Luxembourg was given to the Dutch King as a G.D. (amongst the other lands > mentioned), but Luxembourg was part of the German Confederation and its > defense was the responsibilty of Prussia and its notable fortifications were > garrissoned by Prussian (and Hessian) troops. > > So effectively it went from being a French occupied territory to a Prussia > occupied one. > > Some sources indicate that, though the personal union was implied as an > equal personal union (and not a placement of the G.D. under and within the > kingdom) that with the return of Napoleon and the chaos of the 100 days, it > was never specifically spelled out as such in any written treaty until the > Treaty of London, but I could find good confirmation if that is true or not. > > 1830s: Belgium revolts from the Netherlands and with popular support takes > Luxembourg except for the prussian held fortresses (Belgium also takes > Limburg).? At the London Conference, at first (1830) the issue of the status > of Luxembourg was agreed to be decided at a later time because the great > powers could not come to agreement.? By 1831 the partiton of Luxembourg was > agreed to by the Conference, but not by the Netherlands and so (amongst > other reasons > ) the war dragged on till 1839 > > 1839 (1st) Treaty of London ending the Belgian-Dutch civil war (if civil > war is the right term?): 65% of the Grand Ducal territory, and half it's > population, was lost to the new Belgian province of Luxembourg (aka > Waals-Luxembourg), rest returned to Netherlands but it was now an exclave of > the Dutch King (meaning it did not border the Netherlands) and it is still > part of Germany.? (Limburg similarily split roughly in half and the dutch > part also made a part of the German Confederation and this time as the > "restored" duchy of Limburg as an effectivly Prussian puppet*).? Luxembourg > specifically stated as an independent Grand Duchy in personal union with the > king of the Netherlands > > *=Though technically 2 cities remained outside of the German Confederation, > all very complicated. > > 1840s/1850s: To try to reduce growing French and Belgian influence in the > exclave, the King further pushes it into integration with Germany - ie > Luxembourg joined the Zollverein (the Prussia dominated German Customs Union > that tightly linked the central german economies together) > > 1860s Luxembourg was a negotiating carrot between France and > Prussia/Germany, though no deals ever formalized (note: what I read made it > sound as if the dutch king apparently wasn't even consulted!). > > 1865-1867: Once Prussia defeated Austria and became dominate within > Germany, neither France nor Prussia wanted the other to have the strategic > fortifications in Luxembourg, and they almost went to war over the issue (at > one point France tried > to circumvent the negotiations with the Prussians and approached the Dutch > king and offered to outright buy the Grand Duchy, it was only Prussian and > British* objections that prevented the king from agreeing to the sale).? > Austria, Russia, and the UK all tried to mediate, including repeated > suggestions that the remainder of Luxembourg should go to Belgium. > > *=The British feared for what would happen to their ally Belgium if the > important fortifications on the Belgian flank became French > > 1866/1867 (2nd) Treaty of London: It was finally decided to keep the G.D. > as part of the German zollverein but it would not become part of the new > North German Confederation, it remained technically under the King of the > Netherlands*, but it was to be eternally neutral and demilitarized- The > Prussian troops were removed and they pulled down the walls of the famed > mighty fortresses. (France and Prussia still went to war anyway, for > slightly different reasons, in 1870, but true to the treaty, Luxembourg was > kept out of that fighting, and later it was not made part of the German > Empire though it did remain part of the Zollverein).? It's "eternally > neutral" clause remained until 1948 (when it joined NATO).? Limburg also > fully integrated into Netherlands at this time (no longer within Germany). > > *=now specifically stated, along with Limburg, as being "integral parts of > the Kingdom of the Netherlands" thus no longer even technically a personal > union, though the wikipedia article is self-contratictory in this regard. > > 1890: seperation a > nd final sovereignty.? Ironically to Adolph of Nassau who had lost Nassau > to Prussia in 1866 after he supported the wrong side in the > Prussian-Austrian struggle for control of Germany. > > turn of century: development of coal, iron, and steel resources > > WWI: While still 'officially' neutral, Luxembourg was 'unofficially' > occupied by Germany > > 1918/1919: After WWI luxembourg forcibly removed from the German sphere of > influence (ie withdrawn from the Zollverein, revokment of railway > concessions, etc.).? legislative vote to disband the G.D. and join with > Belgium fails 11-29 (other sources give a closer result 19-21-3).? Plebisite > found 77.8% in favor of remaining indepenent under the current ruling > family. > > 1921/1922: Customs Union w/Belgium > > WWII: Luxembourg occupied by, and forcably integrated into, Nazi Germany, > dispite it's offical neutrality. > > 1940s/1950s: BeNeLux economic integration, Treaty of Rome and the Benelux > Customs & Monetary Union, co-founder of the EEC, all pre-cursors of the > European Union, also joined UN and NATO > > So Luxembourg was essentially a bit of a hot potatoe juggled by Prussia and > France which both sides wanted but the Dutch king usually ended up holding > it by default because neither of the big two could stand the other to > control it (though effectively Prussia did in all but name).? After it > finally lost its military importance and started to have some economic > potential (thanks in large part to the improvements in the industrial sector > of the economy under the zollverein) it was essentialy, at best, a neutr > al territory between France, Belgium, and Prussia/Germany or, at worst, a > Prussian economic dependency, despite being, on paper, a holding of the > Dutch king.? It was only after the seperation that it started to become > truely independent, unfortunately that was just in time to suffer in the > world wars (It has recovered nicely since then though, and is among one of > the richest countries in the world nowadays). > > Luxembourg is one of those countries who's history is full of externally > driven conflict because it is on a geographic boundary zone- historically, > culturally, religiously, and linguistically.? Between the lower lorraine and > the low countries to the north, upper lorraine and swabia to the south.? > Between Germania to the East and Francia to the west and previously between > the Roman empire and German tribes.? Religiously between Catholic and > Protestant and Calvanist.? Linguistically between Low German, High German, > Dutch, and French.? It is only after it had its own ruler, and only in > modern Europe, with europe's reduced importance on borders and divisions, > that it has been able to thrive.? Ironically, it is now, in a sense, at the > center of Europe (politically and economically speaking within the EU, > Eurozone, & etc., and even militarily if you consider NATO) > > main sources consulted: > Black, DK Atlas of World History: Mapping the Human Journey (2001) > > de Blij & Muller, Geography: Relams, Regions and concepts 2000, 9th edition > (2000) > > Brigham and McFarlane, Essentials of Geography revised edition (1925) > > Chow Ka Fat: A20chronology of the ruling parties of the world (online) > > Crawley, C.W.: The New Cambridge modern history, volume 9- War and peace in > an age of upheaval, 1793-1830 (1979) > > Haywood, Historical Atlas of the 19th Century World 1783-1914 (2002) > > Kinder and Hilgemann, The Anchor Atlas of World History volume II (1978) > > Maclagan, Lines of Succession: Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe > (2002) > > O'Brien, Philip's Atlas of World History (2001) > > Ross, Friesian school: Philosophy of History website (online) > > Wikipedia (online) > > and a travel guide book at the library (I don't remember which one), and > maybe also a few others that I forgot. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > -- "I hope to set an example, you know, for children and stuff" - Captain Hammer ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 5 Oct 2009 to 6 Oct 2009 (#2009-66) *************************************************************