Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 May 2011 to 14 May 2011 (#2011-40) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 15/05/2011, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There is 1 message totalling 181 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Missing Adventures: Goals ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 15:39:53 -0500 From: "Erol K. Bayburt" Subject: Re: The Missing Adventures: Goals For me, the lure of good 'ol paper and dice RPGs is that they provide a tasty stew of entertainments, both game-like and story-like. But I've been made very aware over the years (and decades) that different people look for different things when they play. Players who are all about the STORY are no more and no less legit than those who live for the COMBAT. Nor can players of the old Grognard school be dismissed by being told to play WoW or other computerized games. Paper & pencil still has certain advantages over computer-based even when it comes to all-out wargames, and its perfectly possible for players to want those advantages even when it comes to a dungeon-crawl style campaign. A human DM, for example, can provide the monstrous opposition with more cunning than a computer AI can supply, and can actually pass judgment on clever outside-the-box thinking by the players, rather than dismissing it as being outside the program. The "pure hack-and-slash" style isn't my style, any more than the "all about STORY" style is. But hack-and-slash isn't just video-gaming that happens to be on paper, any more than the storytelling style is just the group-creation of a fantasy novel. So when either style gets dismissed with "go play WoW" or "go write a novel", I'll dissent. IMHO doing so is only slightly less bad than trying to train players out of their current "primitive" and/or "degenerate" style. (My own preference, in the Story-Game-World triangle, is for a roughly even mix of World and Game, with a relatively light seasoning of Story. I'm happy to see campaign events turn out to be story-shaped in retrospect, but I don't want to do (or see) much deliberate story-shaping of events either beforehand or as they unfold.) Erol K. Bayburt ErolB1@aol.com On 5/13/2011 9:33 PM, Russel Holmes wrote: > > I shouldn't have let this thread go like I did... but the silly dalliances > > of the military and other RL garbage make good conversations like this > > difficult to keep up with . > > I think that the entire lure good 'ol paper and dice D&D is the STORY. I > > don't have much opportunity anymore to run games (or play for that matter) > > so I usually just get my kicks from Kingdom Detailing (read: Tweaking) in > > Mystara or just manipulating Core Rules or campaign economics... etc. This > > is one of the primary reasons I avoid video games... after 15 some odd years > > off and on of D&D all I can think about when I play video games is how > > limited I am. > > > > Either way, IMO it really should be the story and how the players interact > > with NPCs and the larger culture they are a part of that provides the > > background motive for the game. I agree with Erol and Joaquin in the sense > > that the players should feel part of the world around them. Where I disagree > > with him is about reducing the game down to stats, power, violence, and > > loot. I'm more inclined to direct a potential player toward WoW if that is > > the style of gaming they are into (it is one of the things that video games > > excel at). No matter how well a video game is written, the ability to > > immerse players in the life and culture of a setting is something that D&D > > excels at.... err... unless you are a fantasy novelist for a living. > > > > I also agree with Joaquin about the various non-game mechanic rewards that > > players receive. Ultimately they serve to better connect the players to the > > story. The key is making sure the rewards feel authentic and making sure the > > players don't abuse their new-found rewards. > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, 1 May 2011 "Erol K. Bayburt" wrote > > > > It happens that I really like the style of play where my character is "woven > > in" the game world, with connections, a reputation, and a place in the > > social& political power-structure. But I have to admit that that style > > isn't for everyone. Some people like to play the Mysterious Stranger, some > > people want to see the whole world and not get tied down with roots > > anywhere, and some people are just in it for the sacks (of treasure) and > > violence. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the players and DM are on the > > same page about the type of game being played. > > > > (And there are few things worse than a DM who feels he has a duty - no, a > > capitalized Duty - to train the players to perform a "better" style of > > roleplaying.) > > > > But if the players do want their characters to become woven into the > > gameworld, some of my thoughts are: > > > > o The authorities should be willing to accept the PCs as valuable allies. > > One common mistake is for the DM to have the local authorities demand > > respect without either deserving respect or giving respect in return - > > especially if the "authorities" can't even meet the basic duty of keeping > > the nuisance encounters down. The authorities then become just another enemy > > - or worse, just another nuisance encounter for the PCs. Of course, the PCs > > may *become* the authorities of an area, either officially or unofficially. > > > > o The official authorities and the actual authorities might not be the same. > > It might be a "Rebel Alliance vs the Evil Empire" setup, or on a smaller > > scale, "The merry men of Sherwood Forest vs the Sheriff of Nottingham." If > > ordinary people turn to the outlaws, when they have problems, then the > > outlaws effectively become the Law. > > > > o Having craftsmen& tradesmen giving gifts of free stuff& services to the > > PCs strikes me as out-of-place, unless the scenario is one where the NPCs > > owe, or morally ought to owe, taxes& tithes to the PCs. What works better > > is for the PCs to pay the going rate and get a little extra care& attention > > for it, or for the PCs to choose to pay extra and get a lot of extra care& > > attention. > > > > o An additional thought: The "free stuff" might be a sort of informal, > > unspoken credit arrangement. This works if the PCs pay extra-well for stuff > > when they're flush with treasure, and get free stuff when they're strapped. > > But it requires an understanding that the PCs do pay extra-well when they > > have the coin to do so. > > > > o It helps if the various NPCs have connections with the whole party, rather > > than just with one PC in the party. > > > > o Let the connections between PCs and NPCs grow organically, rather than > > trying to fiat them into being, or force them too hard into place. Also, > > it's better to avoid "PC Glow" effects - have the NPCs react to the PCs the > > same way they'd react to important NPCs. At best, have the NPCs give the PCs > > the benefit of the doubt, rather than having them react to the PCs in ways > > they would never react to NPCs. > > > > o On the other hand, the DM will need to cue the players in on various > > social expectations that the character should know about even if the players > > don't. In fact, it's better for the DM to err on the side of telling the > > players too much about such things rather than too little. Even if the DM > > has to be explicit about it. "Tom, Bornor wouldn't know about this because > > he's a barbarian from the Western Hills, but..." It gets information to the > > rest of the players, too, and also to Tom for when he plays Yvonne the > > Sorceress rather than Bornor the Barbarian. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On 5/1/2011 11:35 AM, Joaquin Menchaca wrote: > > >> >> From day one, you should role-play benefactors to the party. Upon > > successful completion of a quest, society should reward the heroes, with a > > home cook meal, pie, free services, passing affection of a woman, or a hug > > from a little girl. Maybe a little girl draws a cute child picture with the > > heroes. The inn keeper reserves a special spot for the heroes, other people > > give discounts, guards look the other way, or let the heroes go shoudl > > their be any scuffle. > > >> >> The players need to feel rewarded and connected to society. Every single > > villager should have a map of connections. This can lead to all kinds of > > adventures. A girl spurns the affection of a childhood friend, as she is > > infatuated with the heroes living a life of danger. That childhood friend > > could mix up with the wrong crowd, such as cultists, theives' guild, or > > worse. Heroes could be called to save an ungreatful victim, or maybe the > > childhood friend grows in the ranks of some evil force and vows vengence on > > the hero that wronged him or her. > > >> >> The best thing though, is that with these "connections", all sorts of > > authentic feeling adventures pop-up, such as a kidnapping by bugbears that > > like to torture loved ones to make them feel fear. Players can develop a > > solid hatred against enemy forces, making their defeat, especially from a > > villian leader of the hated group, all that more rewarding. > > >> >> ******************************************************************** > > > > > > -Russ (for lack of a wittier pen-name) > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 May 2011 to 14 May 2011 (#2011-40) ***************************************************************