From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #82 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, 14 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 082 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Kaelin Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:33:08 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Secret Crafts (Was: Synn.) > Umm, one of the points of the Seven secret crafts is precicely that >they ARE secret ! It's not something you go around revealing to anyone- >if you want to keep your standing in the craft. No matter who or what you >are, even the High master... > If things work out for you as it did IMC, the other players will wind up >learning more about the crafts from their enemies than from the pc who's >initiated into the secrets ;) > I agree, for the most part. Jagger is a special case however. Jagger never went up through the ranks of the secret craft. When his father died, he found in his fathers massive library all the secrets of the dracologists. Jagger studied well and when he had mastered them all. He then went to glantri and challenged the then high master to a duel. The dracologists, realizing Jagger knew more about their craft then all of them put together, removed the head of their craft and elected Jagger to the position. Jagger doesn't even bother to go to Glantri City for Dracologist business, any of the 4th circle members who need to speak to him have to go to his principality and humbly ask for an audience. So, Jagger is not bound by any of the "secret craft rules" and if any of the other dracologists want to learn any of Jagger's secrets then they'll either have to challenge him (and become little piles of ash) or keep on his good side (which means they won't kick him out, even if he demonstrates his powers in front of the entire graduating class of the school of magic.) Of course, he wouldn't do anything that stupid, but you get my point. He has other reasons for keeping is powers secret (so his enemies and the enemies of Glantri don't know all about him.) But there's no reason to believe he's NEVER used his powers in front of others (like his army). Isn't it just good tactics to sometimes blast your enemies with every power at your disposal? To make an example out of them or because having a dragon on your side would definately turn the tides of a losing battle. Another question. What dragon type is Jagger's chosen type anyway? (I've been using Blue because of his alignment, but I was never quite happy with that.) Dracologists take on the personalites of the dragon type they're associated with, and are even supposed to wear the same color a lot of the time, but the color Jagger wears in most of his pictures in the Glantri Boxed Set is white. What draogn type do other people have him be? > One thought I've been wondering about for a while now - is there any >special problem, apart from the political, of having one person being a >member of more than one craft ? I would think that having a 4rth-circle >witch/elementalist or any other combo would be possible, but perhaps a >bit excessive ;) Of course, this would cost an awful lot of xp :) I never thought of that. I'd assume that joining a secret craft would require being enspelled so that you wouldn't reveal the craft's secrets. (I use a Geas in my campaign.) Part of the initiation would also probably involve some oath to not assist or join the crafts enemies (i.e. the other crafts) and there'd probably be some truth detection magics involved with that as well. Of course, if the character could somehow find a way to fool all the detection magics, nullify the geas, and bluff his way through it then it might be possible. (Although as he/she gained prominence in one or the other the chances of detection would increase even more.) Then of course, if you get caught, you'd have 2 crafts who'd want you dead. I don't think the idea of infiltrating another craft by pretending not to be in one already would be an exactly new idea to some of the more espionage minded mages of the crafts. :-) It'd be a great intrigue/espionage adventure to try to do it and not get caught, but you'd have to outwit far a whole lot of mages who are probably much higher level then yourself. (Of course, what would happen if a mage did become High Master in 2 crafts? Maybe they could combine the 2 into one incredibly powerful craft? ) Maybe now that the Alphatia Wars are over some Craft wars could begin. (I've got some nasty ideas for my campaign now) :-) - -Bob - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 00:48:18 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] Economics More stuff on Mystara economy: according to RC a Light Footman Mercenary earns two gp/months plus meals and lodging and equipment (apart from a sword, an armor and a shield). How can a person survive with 2 gp/months ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 00:47:38 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: D&D Sage (fwd) At 11.08 13/03/96 -0500, Jim Sahlas wrote: > > > Several other modules and accessories were published during this >time, including B11-12, X11-13, CM7-9, M4-5, IM2-3, and the new DDA line >(DDA1-4) with the first two describing adventures set in GAZ1 (The Grand >Duchy of Karameikos) and the second two in Thyatis. Actually DDA1-2 are set in Thyatis, DDA3-4 in Karameikos (I'm not sure of this last two, but I own the former 2). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:22:40 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] GURPS > On Mon, 11 Mar 1996 tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de wrote: > > > After short, we decided to switch the game-system (GURPS) to give up this > > level-based game - now there are simply 1000 mighty mages in the council, > > but it is simply unknown what exactly they are capable of. > > GURPS Mystara > Im trying to convert my D&D campaing into GURPS. > any experience others would want to share, is appreciated. > Hi Haavard, i have tried myself ... Finally i simply do the following: Convert Ep (D&D-Experience Points) into standard Fighter levels (D&D, not AD&D), in the way that a fighter with level 36. get's 400 GURPS CP, and a Wizard with level 36. 500 GURPS CP. A Fighter level 9. should get 100 CP, as GURPS assumes, a starting Hero is already above Normals ... Mhh, i have explained it badly - sorry, but i'm short of time (once again) Otherwise, i use normal GURPS rules; but have not yet decided to use which Magic-System (Supers, MAgic+Grimoire, Improvised Spells, Voodoo, Werewolf, Vampire, Blood-Types, Mage, Psionics, Spell-Law from Rolemaster, Forces from HERO or what - still trying to build a mix of all of them ;-( Byebye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 00:48:09 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Synn (Was:Famous NPCs.) At 10.23 13/03/96 -0600, Oeystein H. Lund. wrote: > > One thought I've been wondering about for a while now - is there any >special problem, apart from the political, of having one person being a >member of more than one craft ? I would think that having a 4rth-circle >witch/elementalist or any other combo would be possible, but perhaps a >bit excessive ;) Of course, this would cost an awful lot of xp :) > I don't know what will happen if one of your craft masters gets to know that you're also a member of another craft, but I don't think he will be happy. Then there is, as you said, the xp cost. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 00:48:13 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Replies to Digests #60-80 At 12.19 13/03/96 -0500, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > > >RE: Krakatos and Telden from Fabrizio Paoli > >Thanks for the pointer to the information on Krakatos and Telden. It was exactly what I was >looking for. Does anyone know exactly when Telden disappeared? I don't recall his death being >mentioned in the "Distinguished Dead" section of any of the almanacs. When is the last time he is >mentioned as being present somewhere? I think last time I "heard" of him was in PWA1, in the "events" section about the New School of Magecraft. > While I'm >throwing around WWW addresses, Fabrizio Paoli has a synopsis of his campaign on his web site. >The URL is > >http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 > Thanks for putting here my address, I was going to do it myself as soon as I finished to put there all the material. However, a more complete URL is http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/diary Let me know your feedback, especially about speed and readability of the pages, because the background I put there may cause problems when reading. > > >RE: Limbo Time from Igor Betti [snipped] Igor is no more on this list, however I'll forward him your answer. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Thomas Ackermann Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:42:54 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Synn (Was:Famous NPCs.) Hi Bod, you wrote: > I guess I'm the only one who just doesn't get this. (Is the High > Dracologist really so feeble that he can't even realize the fact he's being > controlled by a dragon over a span of a few years? ) As you can probably > tell, Jagger is one of the most prominent NPC's in my campaign and it just > seems everyone views Synn as "What can Synn do next" and doesn't seem to > spend any time at all thinking "What does Jagger do?" Treating a 24th > level mage (and that's 24th in AD&D which is like 32-36 in OD&D) like a > pawn is just cheesy. Incredibly cheesy. 24th AD&D ~ 32-36 in D&D ??? I never ever had the idea something in a A&D box or set could be challenge for a 36th level fighter or mage in D&D ... (i do not talk about immortal things, the greatest dragons or the like ...) AD&D seems always to be wimpy to me. (Maybe this was wrong, but ..) Ahh, this reminds me of my players killing of a mighty Lich in some turns, as our wizard turns into a Beholder (Mhhh, was it the undead version?!) and freezes his abilities, while our fighter simply hacks some time ... (OK, with 4 attacks per turn, a sword +5 and Grandmaster-ship in this weapon. Oh my, this was one of the reasons, i turned to GURPS ... But on the other hand - sometimes such things are neat ;-) ;-) Bye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95 ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Es gibt kein Leben auf anderen Planeten, dort ist die Wissenschaft schon viel weiter ist als bei uns." ========================| Mo | Di | Mi | Do | Fr | Sa | So |======= || * = Anwesenheit | - | * | * | - | * | - | - |= tgm || (voraussichtlich) | * | - | * | * | - | - | - |= jans || | - | - | - | - | * | - | - |= yab =================================================================== Mehr oder weniger garantierte Anwesenheit: Di, 15ct-16 Uhr: Be4/Zi1 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 00:48:04 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Synn (Was:Famous NPCs.) At 11.37 13/03/96 -0500, Robert Kaelin wrote: > >>Jaggar evil ? Why ? I think he is one of the kindest princes in Glantri, at >>least before Synn charmed him. You can say that Brannart McGregor, or >>Morphail, or Vlaardoren are evil, but not Jaggar. > >According to the Glatnri Boxed Set (and I admit to not looking him up in >the Gaz for a long while) he is Lawful Evil. He rules his principality >with brutal efficiency, not caring about his citizens as long as they >continue to be efficient and work hard. (And when he does care about him >it's only to make them work harder.) > German (or Hattian) efficency :-) >Maybe in Basic D&D terms he'd be neutral, he's not "Let's go kill babies" According to Gaz3 he is Lawful, one of the few among his peers. > >The reason I like Jagger so much is that he's one of the few Human princes. >He shows that a powerful mage doesn't need gimmics and crutches (like >lichdom, were-wolfdom, an Immortal Identity, and/or vampirehood) to be >interesting and effective. That's why I think it's a shame he's treated >like some pawn (no better then Kol really) in Synn's plot, he's too good >for that. > Here I agree completely with you. > >Jagger is known for enjoying leading his forces into battle personally >(usually astride his pegasus.) He's also known for leading massive Dragon >hunting expeditions. Unless he's managed to kill off every soldier, mage, >fellow student, teacher, and witness who's ever seen him in battle (and >those draconic powers are pretty hard to miss) someone has to know, and >considering the massive war Glantri just went through probably a lot of >someones know. Synn's been seen in Dragon form by what, 2,3,4 people so >far, in only a few years; how many people have seen Jagger use his powers >in his almost 30 years of being a Dracologist? (And his father was a >dracologist before him so some people who knew about him would just assume >it.) > His father was a dracologist too ? Where did you find this ? I know that often he leads his forces into battle personally and he also organizes Dragon hunts, but not necessarily he uses his draconic powers when doing this. Last week, when planning an adventure, I wrote down all stats for his alter-ego Urkvarth including spells. Well, I think he is really powerful just as a plain MU, then add his blackmoorian artifact (sort of laser gun) and his Grand Mastery in the Staff (if I'm correct) and you'll realize that he doesn't need to use his secret draconic powers to survive. >Anyway, if Jagger is SO careful that no one has ever seen him use his >powers and live to tell the tale, then it is a tremendous folly to assume >he was so careless as to become a slave to a dragon for a few years. And, >of course, none of Jaggers friends (the one who makes all the golems for >him..damn I should bring my books with me to work for these names...) or >his family have noticed anything odd about his sudden interest in Synn and >bothered to cast a detect magic or any kind of diviniation on him? > You're referringe to Herr Doktor, I think. Maybe he's been charmed too. >I guess I'm the only one who just doesn't get this. (Is the High >Dracologist really so feeble that he can't even realize the fact he's being >controlled by a dragon over a span of a few years? ) As you can probably >tell, Jagger is one of the most prominent NPC's in my campaign and it just >seems everyone views Synn as "What can Synn do next" and doesn't seem to >spend any time at all thinking "What does Jagger do?" Treating a 24th >level mage (and that's 24th in AD&D which is like 32-36 in OD&D) like a >pawn is just cheesy. Incredibly cheesy. > No, you aren't the only one. My campaign is still in AC 1003, so I did not think about this until now, but I agree with you: Jaggar can not be so feeble. >p.s. Oh ya, one other thing that I forgot to add to the last note. If >Jagger invoked his 1st circle power "Protection from Dragons" which >provents any dragon he's not attacking from affecting him by spells or by >physical attacks, wouldn't that break the charm? > I don't know if it would break the spell, but probably will prevent Synn from charming him again after the previous charme wears off. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:28:50 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Synn (Was:Famous NPCs.) > far, in only a few years; how many people have seen Jagger use his powers > in his almost 30 years of being a Dracologist? (And his father was a > dracologist before him so some people who knew about him would just assume > it. > Anyway, if Jagger is SO careful that no one has ever seen him use his Suppose some mundaner did see. How would he know this isn't just some normal magics. Would he know what is normal magic? is there normal magic? I dont believe a mundaner could notice that the use of the secret powers anyhow differs from "normal magics". And other magic-users? Well... A Prince of Glantri surely has made some spells himself, that no other doesnt seem to posses. Low level mages propaply wouldnt note the subtle differences from normal magics. And its easy to be careful near higher level mages as them are not so many (except in some Alphatias :) > powers and live to tell the tale, then it is a tremendous folly to assume > he was so careless as to become a slave to a dragon for a few years. And, > of course, none of Jaggers friends (the one who makes all the golems for > him..damn I should bring my books with me to work for these names...) or > his family have noticed anything odd about his sudden interest in Synn and > bothered to cast a detect magic or any kind of diviniation on him? Would they dare to try their magics on the Prince? Not without a WERY good reason I would say. > I guess I'm the only one who just doesn't get this. (Is the High > Dracologist really so feeble that he can't even realize the fact he's being > controlled by a dragon over a span of a few years? ) As you can probably I wont buy it. I prefer to think that Jaggar is not charmed by any spell, but by the combined funktion of his own interest in dragons and Synn's magic. More pressure on the mundane side. Jaggar would easily be charmed by the personality and power of Synn's person, and follow him because of that. After all, he has not made anything too strange yet, so he doesnt have to nessessarily be spell bound (IMHO). > p.s. Oh ya, one other thing that I forgot to add to the last note. If > Jagger invoked his 1st circle power "Protection from Dragons" which > provents any dragon he's not attacking from affecting him by spells or by > physical attacks, wouldn't that break the charm? Maybe And a sidenote: In my own campaing The Synn -thing has not gone so far. Not atleast yet. She isnt a Princess, that is. (Kol is a prince though). And in my campaing Jaggar is even more powerful than before, as one of the PC's told him some things about rad (To get a favor), and he has lately become one of the brotherhood. (Though he has not yet wholy mastered the rad though, and is also a bit sucpicious of it) Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:05:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] Missing Persons (or, where'd that NPC go?) On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >RE: Krakatos and Telden from Fabrizio Paoli > > > >Thanks for the pointer to the information on Krakatos and Telden. It was > exactly what I was > >looking for. Does anyone know exactly when Telden disappeared? I don't > recall his death being > >mentioned in the "Distinguished Dead" section of any of the almanacs. When > is the last time he is > >mentioned as being present somewhere? > > I think last time I "heard" of him was in PWA1, in the "events" section > about the New School of Magecraft. > > There were two articles in Dragon magazine, somewhere in the early 200's (203? 205?), both of which were about Karameikos, and changes that took place therein following the WotI- this was also the series that, incidentally, introduced Joshuan Gallidox, the halfling who wrote Joshuan's Almanac. Anyway, the first article was about the new Barony of Halag- ie, the former Black Eagle Barony. (BTW- Bargle is currently in Esterhold, working for King Xanthus? Nicodemus? I forget which. Ludwig von Hendriks, aka the Black Eagle, on the other hand, was rescued from Hin by humanoids and is currently assisting Prince Kol IV in Glantri to build up his forces.) The second article was on the new school of magecraft in Krakatos, and in the introductory paragraphs, there is mention of Teldon. One of the reasons the school was built, apparently, was to reduce the dangers of experimental research on the populace of Specularum. It mentions one such disaster, when a student's artificial beholder got loose and ravaged the city- Teldon went to battle it, and the two disappeared in a burst of light. Whether Teldon and the thing destroyed one another or not remains to be seen, but at any rate, Teldon has not been seen since. All of this, IIRC, took place before Terari visited Specularum and made his proposition to the (then?) Duke. I think that places his disappearance somewhere in 1006 AC, before Karameikos declares his independence from Thyatis. ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:54:45 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Thomas Ackermann wrote: > 24th AD&D ~ 32-36 in D&D ??? > > I never ever had the idea something in a A&D box or set could be challenge > for a 36th level fighter or mage in D&D ... (i do not talk about immortal > things, the greatest dragons or the like ...) > > AD&D seems always to be wimpy to me. > (Maybe this was wrong, but ..) > If I recall correctly, all characters below 20th level should be treated as whatever level they have when convertind D&D to AD&D. When converting characters above 20th level, Divide the excessory levels by two and add that number to twenty. This should meant that Jagger should be 28th not 24th. This ,and several other examples indiccate that the conversion rules from the Cyclopedia were not used when converting D&D into AD&D. I discovered this when i in shock discovered that Master Terari was presented as a 20th level mage in the Karameikos boxed set! I dont know what method of conversion they actually used, but i think they should have used the old one. Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:57:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) >On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Thomas Ackermann wrote: > >> 24th AD&D ~ 32-36 in D&D ??? >> >> I never ever had the idea something in a A&D box or set could be challenge >> for a 36th level fighter or mage in D&D ... (i do not talk about immortal >> things, the greatest dragons or the like ...) >> >> AD&D seems always to be wimpy to me. >> (Maybe this was wrong, but ..) Ack, no... (Bob holds up his silver cross to this thread and screams "Foul creature get ye hence!") Sorry, I didn't mean to start an AD&D vs. D&D thread. Here was my rational for the level comparison. In the Gaz. (which I reread last night) Jagger is given as level 30. This was in the year 1000. My campaign takes place in the year 1011 right now, so I upped his level in D&D terms to 32-36. (I've never bothered to do the exact calculation of his level in D&D terms because I use AD&D levels.) It may seem a bit drastic to raise an NPC's levels by 2-6 in 11 years but when you figure he's in charge of the entire Glantri Military (and they've been pretty darn busy with this whole war thing breaking out) he's been one of the most active mages in all Glantri lately. Also when you figure it took him 45 years or so of practice to get to be 30th (he's in his early 60's) 2-6 levels in a quarter of that time isn't too far fetched. I wasn't translating direct XP, but considering the vast difference in XP needed at higher levels between the two systems 375k/level as opposed to what? 150k/level in D&D? I don't think it's that bad of a comparison. You just can't directly compare them because there are some (IMHO utterly munchkin) things in D&D that aren't in AD&D, like Grand Mastery for all classes. Of course, if you use some of the things in the high level campaigns book, like True Dweomers (Sic?) then things would definately even out. If that Lich in the previous example had an Invocation(Strike) True Dweomer ready he wold have fried that beholder in the previous example in 1 round flat. (Of course if it was in AD&D, Shapechange wouldn't allow you to have the beholders power of anti-magic anyway so it's a moot point.) - -Bob - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:16:53 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D level conversions >If I recall correctly, all characters below 20th level should be treated >as whatever level they have when convertind D&D to AD&D. When converting >characters above 20th level, Divide the excessory levels by two and add >that number to twenty. This should meant that Jagger should be 28th not 24th. >This ,and several other examples indiccate that the conversion rules from >the Cyclopedia were not used when converting D&D into AD&D. I discovered >this when i in shock discovered that Master Terari was presented as a >20th level mage in the Karameikos boxed set! > >I dont know what method of conversion they actually used, but i think >they should have used the old one. You think that's scary? In Mark of Amber, if the players manage to bring Ettienne back to what the module calls "his full power before the war" his mortal identity's level is given as 20th also! That left a bitter taste in my mouth for weeks. - -Bob (To my knowledge Jagger is the only NPC that was converted from D&D to AD&D and was listed at over 20th.) - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #82 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #83 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, 16 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 083 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Oeystein H. Lund." Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:33:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Printing press On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > An article in last Dragon Magazine made me remind an old doubt about Mystara: > does it exist the printing press on our beloved fantasy world ? > IMC Glantrians, Alphatians and Darokininan surely have it, although books > are still a rarity. > What about your campaigns ? > > BTW: if the PWA is really published by a Thyatian wizard named Prospero > (it's written in Joshuan Almanac) so the printing press should exist also in > Thyatis, I think. Well, the Book of Wonderful Inventions has a printing press of sorts, that uses a modified version of a Bigby's Hand spell to ram the printing plate onto the paper to be printed ;) However, I really didn't like the "camp" feel of that accessory at all, so I mostly ignore what's presented there. With some exeptions, like the 'flashlight' from Dorfin's little shop of Horrors, of course ;) ------------------------------ From: "Oeystein H. Lund." Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:59:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Synn (Was:Famous NPCs.) On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Robert Kaelin wrote: > >Jaggar evil ? Why ? I think he is one of the kindest princes in Glantri, at > >least before Synn charmed him. You can say that Brannart McGregor, or > >Morphail, or Vlaardoren are evil, but not Jaggar. > > According to the Glatnri Boxed Set (and I admit to not looking him up in > the Gaz for a long while) he is Lawful Evil. He rules his principality > with brutal efficiency, not caring about his citizens as long as they > continue to be efficient and work hard. (And when he does care about him > it's only to make them work harder.) Lawful *evil* ? I'm shocked ! Doesn't the designers read their own company's products before deciding things like that ? The Jaggar Von Drachenfels of GAZ 3 (and his cameo in AC11) is most certainly not evil - - unless you say that this alignment is Synn's magic at work. In which case it's qute some more than a piddly little charm spell she's using to mess with his mind ;) Jaggar is a military leader in the Prussian tradition - so he's probably Lawful Neutral with good tendencies. The good tendencies I base on his willingness to work for others, and his capacity for self-sacrifice, that he demonstrates in AC11, along with his abilities as a *good* commander in X10. Believe me, you're not about to see a good comander, beloved by his troops with an evil alignment. People don't like leaders who're willing to spend their lives like drunken sailors spend money ;) Okay - IF you postulate that Synn's been using something far more effective than a charm spell, and far more deep-reaching, I'd be able to buy the evil alignment. > considering the massive war Glantri just went through probably a lot of > someones know. Synn's been seen in Dragon form by what, 2,3,4 people so > far, in only a few years; how many people have seen Jagger use his powers > in his almost 30 years of being a Dracologist? (And his father was a > dracologist before him so some people who knew about him would just assume > it.) Hmmm. Personally, I'd be VERY, VERY wary of using such powers at all, where anyone *capable* of understanding that I'm not doing 'regular magic' was around me. Any single person's FAR too vulnerable - the only defense you have against other people wanting to kill you to steal your power is to keep it quiet. Jaggar's not stupid - he'd understand that. B'sides, there's very few powers that can't be explained as a spell or item for any of the crafts- their real utility lies in expanding the range of abilities available. I don't think it too bloody likely that Jaggar would use the 5th circle power in either dragon hunts (hardly sporting) or wartime (big critter - big target). And the 4rth and lower powers are all explainable as spells.... > him..damn I should bring my books with me to work for these names...) or > his family have noticed anything odd about his sudden interest in Synn and > bothered to cast a detect magic or any kind of diviniation on him? Again, this is assuming he's under a charm/compulsion, and not a sort of 'psychic surgery' or brainwashing. B'sides, Jaggar himself would undoubtedly take a Very dim wiev of anyone who started spellcasting around him. This doesn't preclude accidents (Umm, I cast detect magic on the dagger, and your head started glowing, uncle), but it does cut down on the likelihood of discovery. [Can't believe I'm defending this !] But the point is moot anyway - Jaggar has an 18 int and is level 33 in OD&D - he's got saves around 2 vs. magic. In all probability he'd shake off the charm 8 hours after it first took hold.... > p.s. Oh ya, one other thing that I forgot to add to the last note. If > Jagger invoked his 1st circle power "Protection from Dragons" which > provents any dragon he's not attacking from affecting him by spells or by > physical attacks, wouldn't that break the charm? > That I'm not so sure of. I don't think it would break any enchantments already in place. But, as another listmember pointed out - it would most certainly prevent re-charming (assuming that's what's going on) ------------------------------ From: Thomas Ackermann Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:23:41 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Economics > More stuff on Mystara economy: according to RC a Light Footman Mercenary > earns two gp/months plus meals and lodging and equipment (apart from a > sword, an armor and a shield). > How can a person survive with 2 gp/months ? This is pay beyond the basic needs - they get fed a.s.o. Additionaly soldiers were people who *had* to obey the command to the weapons. Part of taxes was payed in form of years in the army ... (I think, from recalling my knowledge about D&D Mystara) Bye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95 ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Es gibt kein Leben auf anderen Planeten, dort ist die Wissenschaft schon viel weiter ist als bei uns." ========================| Mo | Di | Mi | Do | Fr | Sa | So |======= || * = Anwesenheit | - | * | * | - | * | - | - |= tgm || (voraussichtlich) | * | - | * | * | - | - | - |= jans || | - | - | - | - | * | - | - |= yab =================================================================== Mehr oder weniger garantierte Anwesenheit: Di, 15ct-16 Uhr: Be4/Zi1 ------------------------------ From: Thomas Ackermann Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:56:36 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) > Ack, no... (Bob holds up his silver cross to this thread and screams "Foul > creature get ye hence!") > > Sorry, I didn't mean to start an AD&D vs. D&D thread. Here was my rational > for the level comparison. Sorry myself, I wrote too fast. > You just can't directly compare them because there are some (IMHO utterly > munchkin) things in D&D that aren't in AD&D, like Grand Mastery for all > classes. Of course, if you use some of the things in the high level > campaigns book, like True Dweomers (Sic?) then things would definately even > out. If that Lich in the previous example had an Invocation(Strike) True > Dweomer ready he wold have fried that beholder in the previous example in 1 > round flat. (Of course if it was in AD&D, Shapechange wouldn't allow you > to have the beholders power of anti-magic anyway so it's a moot point.) I don' know True Dweoners, sorry. But i did not compare Levels, or Experience-Points, but only abilities ... In my memory (which comes mostly from 1.Ed AD&D), AD&D was always behind D&D in terms of killing-power of both the highest possible fighters and mages. As i sayed, this may be wrong (esp. in the 2.Ed.) but i don't know better. ;-) I was completely unable to give challenges to my three 36.th Level Fighter, two 36.th Level Mages and the 36.th Level Cleric ... This team was *increadible* ;-| They leveled the ecology of Dragons, Liches and Night Crawlers, Night Walkers and Night Wings like nothing ... Bye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95 ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Es gibt kein Leben auf anderen Planeten, dort ist die Wissenschaft schon viel weiter ist als bei uns." =================================================================== Mehr oder weniger garantierte Anwesenheit: Di, 15ct-16 Uhr: Be4/Zi1 Soneke udn Tahosam! ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 00:00:07 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] Jaggar (was Synn) A new idea about the "charme" Synn put on Jaggar: maybe he has not been charmed by a spell, but by Lady Hillsbury (is this the human identity of Synn ?) charming beauty. Sometimes man fall in love with beatiful ladies and end really losing their heads... The only doubt I have is Jaggar wisdom, I don't have Gaz 3 at hand but I think he has an high score. Anyway, just another theory. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 23:44:36 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Missing Persons (or, where'd that NPC go?) At 02.05 14/03/96 -0700, Cthulhudrew wrote: >On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >> >RE: Krakatos and Telden from Fabrizio Paoli >> > >> >Thanks for the pointer to the information on Krakatos and Telden. It was >> exactly what I was >> >looking for. Does anyone know exactly when Telden disappeared? I don't >> recall his death being >> >mentioned in the "Distinguished Dead" section of any of the almanacs. When >> is the last time he is >> >mentioned as being present somewhere? >> >> I think last time I "heard" of him was in PWA1, in the "events" section >> about the New School of Magecraft. >> > > >The second article was on the new school of magecraft in Krakatos, and in >the introductory paragraphs, there is mention of Teldon. One of the >reasons the school was built, apparently, was to reduce the dangers of >experimental research on the populace of Specularum. It mentions one such >disaster, when a student's artificial beholder got loose and ravaged the >city- Teldon went to battle it, and the two disappeared in a burst of >light. Whether Teldon and the thing destroyed one another or not remains >to be seen, but at any rate, Teldon has not been seen since. All of this, >IIRC, took place before Terari visited Specularum and made his >proposition to the (then?) Duke. I think that places his disappearance >somewhere in 1006 AC, before Karameikos declares his independence from >Thyatis. > The message to which Sir George answered was just a message of mine telling him to look in those Dragon magazine for infos about Teldon. The problem is that, if I remember well, Teldon is mentioned also in PWA1 along with Terari and the new School of Magecraft. Thath's why I would put his disappearance after WotI. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Jason MURPHY Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:56:20 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Missing Persons (or, where'd that NPC go?) > I think that places his disappearance > somewhere in 1006 AC, before Karameikos declares his independence from > Thyatis. > Excuse my ignorance but i was under the impression that Karameikos was totally autonomous, and had no real link to Thyatis except for a loose alliance. The Karameikos Gaz read as Karameikos being a sovereign(Sp?) nation. Is this a difference between the OD&D and AD&D versions? Jason ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:09:49 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] NPC errataa Since the topic of NPC's in Mystara has come up, I have a question. Is anyone else a little disappointed in the treatment the humanoid rulers received in WotI and the PWA's? I mean, aside from Thar, Kol, and Alebane, the rest of the humanoid rulers are tossed aside, dismissed, as if they never existed. (Of course, Queen Yazar's death is mentioned, though not confirmed for fact.) What have the rest of you done with the 'noid leaders, if anything? I have a couple of ideas, though none I've set into motion, yet. Thoughts? ------------------------------ From: "The Dark Elf." Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:33:52 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Thomas Ackermann wrote: > I don' know True Dweoners, sorry. > But i did not compare Levels, or Experience-Points, but only abilities ... > In my memory (which comes mostly from 1.Ed AD&D), AD&D was always behind > D&D in terms of killing-power of both the highest possible fighters and mages. I would have to agree with this for one reason of mages being able to cast their spells in a round in most cases (for D&D) while in AD&D you can disrupt a spell quite easily... also the D&D round is 10 sec while the AD&D segment is 6 sec, which if one plays one system against the other as it seemed were doing at the moment, the higher lever D&D characters should be better than an equivalent AD&D level character. > > As i sayed, this may be wrong (esp. in the 2.Ed.) but i don't know better. > ;-) > > I was completely unable to give challenges to my three 36.th Level Fighter, > two 36.th Level Mages and the 36.th Level Cleric ... > This team was *increadible* ;-| > > They leveled the ecology of Dragons, Liches and Night Crawlers, Night Walkers > and Night Wings like nothing ... > try sending them against immortal level creatures and see the good old player caution step in :) either that or have countries, NPC friends turned against them with some mega curse that they can't just get the cleric to fix. > Bye, > -- > Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* > tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* > (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95 > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Es gibt kein Leben auf anderen Planeten, > dort ist die Wissenschaft schon viel weiter ist als bei uns." > =================================================================== > Mehr oder weniger garantierte Anwesenheit: Di, 15ct-16 Uhr: Be4/Zi1 > Soneke udn Tahosam! > ****************************************************************************** * Martin Hamilton The Dark Elf martinh@deakin.edu.au * * DUGA - Deakin University Games Association * ****************************************************************************** * The Monach of Duga, The Duke of the Crown, The Crown. (ie President) * * The Thaumaturgist Surpremum, Duke of the Wyrm. (Roleplaying Games Officer) * * Knight of the order of the Wyrm (DM for Mystara D&D/AD&D) * * The Harliquin of the Royal Court, Duke of the Bell, He of the Tinkling * * Tassle. (Social Activities Officer) * ****************************************************************************** * DUGA is supported by: Time Zone, Planet X, Card Mania, Mind Games and soon * * to be supported by Pipeline. * ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: andmissinato@email.telpress.it (Missinato Andrea) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:41:45 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Economics Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > More stuff on Mystara economy: according to RC a Light Footman Mercenary > earns two gp/months plus meals and lodging and equipment (apart from a > sword, an armor and a shield). > How can a person survive with 2 gp/months ? As you say, the pay is 2 gp/month *PLUS* meals, lodging & equipments (double in wartime). In the middle age, except for nobles, high clerics and adventurers, the peasants (both workers and mercenaries) had only to earn for surviving. - -- Andrea Missinato andmissinato@email.telpress.it ------------------------------ From: JOEGERBER@delphi.com Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:09:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) Haavard, In many of the gazeteers, it was suggested that players go up to 14th level, thenn go 2to1. Thus, a OD&D 36th lv mageagic-user is a emremere 320th(!!!) level mage ain AD&D. I think that this is the rule that was used in the Karameikos set. (See also raves about conversion inconsistencies.) Joe Gerber ------------------------------ From: JOEGERBER@delphi.com Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:23:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Missing Persons (or, where'd that NPC go?) Jason, ALthough Karameikos was totally autonomous, Stephen kept a afacade of being a Thaytian holding (to keep from being attacted). During the war, he figured thatThayatis's ship was sunk, and that Thayatian properties between Thaytis and Glantri would also be overran (and possibly annexed). So, not wanted to see his ;lire's work chopped up, he had Eriandana agree to a complerte soveignty in return for not doing too much damgaage to his countruyy when they came. (Whoops, I mentant life's owork 2 lines up.) Joe gerber Gerberoe Gerber Giving credit where its's due: The above info was paraphrased from my rewcollection of the WOTI timeline. ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:30:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Arik Hi all, Here are my ideas and suggestions about Arik. > Arik uses giant rubies the size of a large man's fist as > his eyes - the Hundred Eyes in his tile. Minor nit: Are the eyes really rubies? I always imagined that the eyes *assumed the form of* rubies on the prime material plane. > These are detachable > at will, and functions as conduits for the Immortal's power. > This conduit functions across dimensions, and allows Arik > to wield Immortal-level power in a location without being actually > present. I think this is a great idea, but you seem to drop it as you continue. I think we should take this and run with it. It does raise a few questions though. How does he get them out of the prison dimension? It must be difficult, or it would happen more frequently. What occurred differently in B3, or is occurring now in the multiverse, that allowed this to happen? Could another immortal be helping Arik? What is the cost to Arik for detaching an eye? Suggested answers follow. > Kobolds and orcs are attracted to his service, and he has some > influence over minor undead like skeletons. Off the top of my head, I can also think of hobgoblins, goblins, bugbears, zombies, troglodytes, and medusae. In short, I would say just about anything evil, and preferably chaotic. > His relatively high level is given since he managed - > from the dimensional prison, no less - to keep the Karameikan Three > at bay. Actually, he kept Thendara (Ordanna) at bay. She is the "protector" of the Valley of Haven, not the Traladaran three. IIRC, B3 says that the protector was being besieged on other fronts, and that's why the PC's were needed to attend to the matter in Haven. (If someone who has that module could look it up, that would be a help. I no longer have a copy.) It sounds to me like Arik has at least one immortal ally assisting him. [demonic and diabolic arguments snipped] I would lean toward the demonic side here. Half of the palace was destroyed, numerous people were turned to stone, and humanoids and undead were raiding the valley. Demons are not above lulling their prey into a false sense of security before striking. > What was he as a mortal ? Given the large number of eyes his > Immortal form uses, it's easy to suggest that he was a beholder > or beholderkin. I like the beholder idea. Other monstrous races have had individuals gain immortality. > What are the eyes really ? Given that the Eye in Haven (B3) seems > to operate rather independently, and uses a lot of power where > Arik himself is cut off from wielding it - one could begin to suspect > that they are in fact semi-autonomous entities. Are they really operating independently? You mentioned above that the eyes serve as a conduit for Arik's power. I think a better explanation is that Arik caused the disaster in Haven using the eye as a conduit. After that, the only thing left for his release was for one of his priests to complete the summoning ceremony while the rest of his minions reeked havoc as a distraction. > In any case, they have > to be fairly magical, and capable of gathering power for themselves > and crossing planar barriers on their own. See above. I suggest that Arik's immortal ally helped him to get the eye out of the dimensional prison. > How's the priesthood doing, now that their god is unavailable ? > Well, obviously, Commune isn't going to work all that well, but the > cleric in B3 does have spells, and must be getting them from somewhere. In B3, Arik's priests could be getting their spells through the conduit, but I doubt it. What if Arik's as yet unnamed immortal ally were to provide spells to Arik's priesthood? As soon as Arik is released, he would owe a huge favor to the ally; without spells for the priesthood, Arik's following would dwindle away to nothing, and he would have no hope of escape from the dimensional prison. > This suggests that Arik created an Artifact to provide spells for his > clerics if he was unable to himself. See above. > Come to think > of it - if you choose to use the Arik-as-Arioch interpretation - that > might be WHY Thanatos would like to keep Arik away. He doesn't want > anyone who knows how badly he blew that one to come around and remind > him. In that case, Arik's mysterious ally would either be an enemy of Thanatos, or someone who desires his power. Wouldn't it be ironic if that immortal managed to get Thanatos to help in the plot against Ordanna? Of course even if that were true, Thanatos might have been the one that manipulated events to put the PC's in the right place at the right time. > It's a good idea though, but for reasons of copyright alone I don't > think we can use it. Be a terrible thing to have TSR get sued by Moorcock > and Chaosium over this AGAIN, wouldn't it ?) Sure we can. We just can't use the same story line for whatever plot Thanatos and Arik were involved in. I don't see a copyright violation there. What about Nithia? In the latter stages of Nithia's corruption, the rulers decided to "engage in wars of extermination with surrounding cultures" (Hollow World Dungeon Master's Sourcebook, p. 76). That doesn't sound like Thanatos' style to me. Perhaps the Nithian rulers began to ignore his wishes, and took it upon themselves to start these wars. Thanatos, knowing that other immortals would put a stop to it, enlisted the aid of Arik in order to have a scapegoat. Arik, ever eager to please his sponsor and mentor, jumped right in. He began spreading ideas of conquering, death, and destruction. Not only that, but at Thanatos' urging he actively interfered with the mortals. (Thanatos told Arik that he would stand with him in defiance of the other immortals if they lowered the boom, and then turned his back at the critical moment. Perhaps he was on the Council of Mystara at the time.) As a result, Arik was locked away at the same time that Nithia was transported to the Hollow World. How does that sound? > What exactly is the prison ? For those using the Planescape model of the multiverse, I would surmise that Arik is locked away somewhere in Carceri the Red Prison. Otherwise, the explanation below fits in with my ideas. > Going by the Gold box immortal set, it's probably a trispace - a plane > with only three dimensions, lacking the fourth and fifth neccessary for > magic to function. In all probability it was made into a prison by > establishing a gate to it, removing all astral contact points, forcing > Arik to enter the gate, and then closing it behind him. Without any > Astral contact points, the plane is effectively cut off from the rest > of the multiverse - nothing from the outside can open a gate to a plane > that doesn't exist from the Astral point of view, Except possibly another immortal. This is a necessity if the trispace theory is to fit in with the other parts of my explanation. > and Arik can't do > anything from the inside because mortal magic depends on the presence > of a fourth dimension, while Immortal magics draw on the fifth - and > sometimes even higher dimensions. Arik couldn't use his magic within the trispace prison, but by using the eye as a conduit could he wield his magic outside the prison? > How did the Eye get out then ? See above. Part of an immortal plot by some entropic to wrest power from Thanatos. > What was the nature of his crimes ? See above. The corruption of Nithia. I think I have only two unanswered questions left. What is the cost to Arik for detaching an eye? I'm not well versed in the rules for immortals, but what about a certain number of power points or levels? The other question concerns the identity of the Arik's ally. Almost any entropic immortal would work with Thanatos in a plot against Ordanna. Only a very subtle hierarch would be bold enough to work *with* Thanatos as part of a plot *against* him. Only a chaotic and evil immortal would desire the release of Arik. That leaves only Atzanteotl . Why would Atzanteotl desire the release of Arik? Is he looking for a scapegoat for one of his own plots? That's doubtful. Could he be trying to recruit another member for the Brotherhood of the Shadow? This idea has some possibilities. Well, that's all I have for now. Any thoughts? Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #83 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #84 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, 16 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 084 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:29:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] D&D to AD&D Level Conversions Hi all, Last night I pulled out my copies of PWA2 (OD&D) and PWA3 (AD&D) and compared the levels of over 80 NPC's listed in both books. All but three of them either converted perfectly using the method described in the Rules Cyclopedia or were given one extra level. This seems well within the realm of statistical and playable believability. Of the other three, one was one level lower (must have met a level draining undead), one was two levels higher (still barely believable), and the third was Prince Jaggar. Prince Jaggar was given *six* extra levels when he was converted to AD&D. Personally, I think this was a mistake. And since the designer of the Glantri boxed set used the stats from PWA3, the mistake was perpetuated in that work. That means, of course, that Jaggar should only be 18th level in AD&D. Of course, this doesn't take into account the fact that many prominent NPC's (Jaggar included) didn't gain any levels from AC1000 to AC1013. This is something that we as a group should probably take a look at. Also, now that the High Level Handbook has come out for AD&D, we should think about converting 36th level OD&D characters to somewhere in the range of 20-30th level in AD&D. Just some food for thought. Comments, suggestions, and other ideas are always encouraged. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 20:28:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Secret Crafts (Was: Synn.) >At 14.33 13/03/96 -0500, Robert Kaelin wrote: >> >>I agree, for the most part. Jagger is a special case however. Jagger >>never went up through the ranks of the secret craft. When his father died, >>he found in his fathers massive library all the secrets of the >>dracologists. Jagger studied well and when he had mastered them all. He >>then went to glantri and challenged the then high master to a duel. The >>dracologists, realizing Jagger knew more about their craft then all of them >>put together, removed the head of their craft and elected Jagger to the >>position. Jagger doesn't even bother to go to Glantri City for Dracologist >>business, any of the 4th circle members who need to speak to him have to go >>to his principality and humbly ask for an audience. >> >Again, where did you find this ? In the new Glantrian Boxed Set ? > Yup, although there's probably not much more of the story left, I think I've paraphrased most of it. :-) >IMC he is a gold dragon, because he's lawful. Dragon #170 tells of him >becoming the new Star Dragon, i.e. the Ruler of All Lawful Dragons, so he >can only be Gold or Crystal (this last I'm not sure). > Cool, I'm gonna look this one up now. Thanks! - -Bob ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 11:56 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arik some people wrote about Arik: >> Come to think >> of it - if you choose to use the Arik-as-Arioch interpretation - that >> might be WHY Thanatos would like to keep Arik away. He doesn't want >> anyone who knows how badly he blew that one to come around and remind >> him. > >In that case, Arik's mysterious ally would either be an enemy of >Thanatos, or someone who desires his power. Wouldn't it be ironic if >that immortal managed to get Thanatos to help in the plot against >Ordanna? Of course even if that were true, Thanatos might have been the >one that manipulated events to put the PC's in the right place at the >right time. > > >> It's a good idea though, but for reasons of copyright alone I don't >> think we can use it. Be a terrible thing to have TSR get sued by Moorcock >> and Chaosium over this AGAIN, wouldn't it ?) I think that's irrelevant. They can't really sue TSR with a good reason just because some people on the net are using their stuff, and using it for profit, can they? If you like a storyline or something, just use it. It's not like you're working for TSR and are making a book to sell, or tring to sell it at all. You're a gamer making it for your campaign, (am I right?). If so, I don't think there's anything to worry about. (I personally think that TSR needs a big suing, for taking Fritz Leiber's Lankmar (although that was long ago), suing Gary Gygax because he made Dangerous Journeys, and trying to monopolize the game market. They make some really good stuff, but whoever's running it needs to know that other people in other companies do too, and they have the right to do so. IMO(that means in my opinion, right?)) ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:58:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Where's Teldon? Hi all, Thanks to the input of Fabrizio Paoli and Cthulhudrew, I have pieced together the following about Teldon. It is arranged in the order in which it was published. WotI says that Terari settled in Karameikos in AC1010 or sometime thereafter. He was followed by many other Alphatian wizards with nowhere else to go. It also mentions the founding of the school. From PWA1 we find that King Stefan Karameikos announced the commissioning of the new school on Nuwmont 1, AC1010. He also announces that many of the remaining Alphatian wizards have been asked to come and settle in Karameikos. On Felmont 1, ground was broken for the new school. On Felmont 11, Terari visited Krakatos where the building of the new school was in progress. He made a few recommendations to Teldon. Apparently, as head of the Magicians' Guild, Teldon was in charge of the activity. By Ambyrmont 11, Terari was an advisor on the project. On Ambyrmont 23, Terari was confirmed as the school's Headmaster. On Eirmont 15, King Stefan Karameikos announced that the school was completed and was to open its doors on Thaumont 15, 1011. PWA2 confirms that the school did indeed open on Thaumont 15. That book does not mention Teldon in the Distinguished Dead section. In Dragon #207 we read that Teldon defeated a creation of one of the Guild's advanced apprentices, which was in the process of leveling a large part of the South End. "Both mage and monster disappeared in a pure white ball of fire." Two paragraphs later, we find out that Terari was a key player in selecting the site for the school, and that he had been working with Teldon for a year before he died. It also mentions that Terari was rewarded with the position as Minister of Magic and Headmaster of the school for all of his hard work. So, what does this all mean? In order to smooth over most of the conflicts, my explanation is that Terari actually settled in Karameikos late in AC1008 and became friends with Teldon then. At that time, the two of them, along with the rest of the Magicians' Guild, began kicking around the idea of the new school. Sometime after the week without magic in AC1009 came Teldon's battle with the mechanical beholder. Because of the mass destruction caused by the incident, King Stefan got involved with the discussions about the school. Terari suggested Krakatos as the site, and Stefan agreed. He made his announcement on Nuwmont 1, 1010, and construction began on Felmont 1 with Terari as the advisor for the project. On Ambyrmont 23, Terari was named Headmaster of the school and Minister of Magic. Have I left anything out? Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions are encouraged and solicited. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:12:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] NPC's and Level Increases Hi all, Since I brought up the idea of NPC level increases earlier, I just though I would post my quick and dirty system for it. I divide NPC's into two categories: adventuring and non-adventuring. Non-adventuring NPC's still gain experience points, but at a greatly reduced rate. This allows the captain of the guard, the wizard who spends all of his or her time studying, and the local ruler to all gain the occasional level. I give adventuring NPC's 1,000 xp's per level per month. In other words, a 1st level character earns 1,000 xp's per month, and a 12th level character earns 12,000 xp's per month. The increasing number of xp's reflects the greater challenges faced by the higher level character. I award non-adventuring NPC's 100 xp's per level per month. There is a limit of 1/10 the number of experience points that it takes to advance at the higher levels. That would be 25,000 per month for fighters, 30,000 for paladins and rangers, 22,000 for rogues, 37,500 for wizards, 22,500 for priests, and 50,000 for druids. I also require characters to train every time they gain a level. For NPC's, training time is set at one month for each level up to 9th, and two months for every level thereafter. This system isn't perfect, but it works fairly well. Note that I use it for AD&D. I haven't worked out the numbers, but it shouldn't be too bad for OD&D. As always, comments, suggestions, and other ideas are encouraged. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "The Dark Elf." Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:25:18 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Secret Crafts (Was: Synn.) On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 14.33 13/03/96 -0500, Robert Kaelin wrote: > > > >I agree, for the most part. Jagger is a special case however. Jagger > >never went up through the ranks of the secret craft. When his father died, > >he found in his fathers massive library all the secrets of the > >dracologists. Jagger studied well and when he had mastered them all. He > >then went to glantri and challenged the then high master to a duel. The > >dracologists, realizing Jagger knew more about their craft then all of them > >put together, removed the head of their craft and elected Jagger to the > >position. Jagger doesn't even bother to go to Glantri City for Dracologist > >business, any of the 4th circle members who need to speak to him have to go > >to his principality and humbly ask for an audience. > > > Again, where did you find this ? In the new Glantrian Boxed Set ? > > >Isn't it just good tactics to sometimes blast your enemies with every power > >at your disposal? To make an example out of them or because having a > >dragon on your side would definately turn the tides of a losing battle. > > > I think it's better to keep some of your powers secret, because you may need > them later to surprise your enemy, especially in a place like Glantri. sometimes it's the fear of what someone is capable of that helps more than having a spell up the sleeve. > > >Another question. What dragon type is Jagger's chosen type anyway? (I've > >been using Blue because of his alignment, but I was never quite happy with > >that.) Dracologists take on the personalites of the dragon type they're > >associated with, and are even supposed to wear the same color a lot of the > >time, but the color Jagger wears in most of his pictures in the Glantri > >Boxed Set is white. What draogn type do other people have him be? > > > IMC he is a gold dragon, because he's lawful. Dragon #170 tells of him > becoming the new Star Dragon, i.e. the Ruler of All Lawful Dragons, so he > can only be Gold or Crystal (this last I'm not sure). He was the Star Dragon if I remember rightly, its in Gaz 3. It's one of the Immortal Dragon Rulers forms, so some time in his past he must have confronted the ruler of that alignment type and defeated that ruler in fair combat. All this does is banish that immortal to it's home plane or something along those lines. hope this helped somewhat... ****************************************************************************** * Martin Hamilton The Dark Elf martinh@deakin.edu.au * * DUGA - Deakin University Games Association * ****************************************************************************** * The Monach of Duga, The Duke of the Crown, The Crown. (ie President) * * The Thaumaturgist Surpremum, Duke of the Wyrm. (Roleplaying Games Officer) * * Knight of the order of the Wyrm (DM for Mystara D&D/AD&D) * * The Harliquin of the Royal Court, Duke of the Bell, He of the Tinkling * * Tassle. (Social Activities Officer) * ****************************************************************************** * DUGA is supported by: Time Zone, Planet X, Card Mania, Mind Games and soon * * to be supported by Pipeline. * ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:25:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] D&D to AD&D Level Conversions >Of course, this doesn't take into account the fact that many prominent NPC's >(Jaggar included) didn't gain any levels from AC1000 to AC1013. This is >something that we as a group should probably take a look at. Also, now >that the High Level Handbook has come out for AD&D, we should >think about converting 36th level OD&D characters to somewhere in the >range of 20-30th level in AD&D. > >Just some food for thought. Comments, suggestions, and other ideas are >always encouraged. First off, great job going through all those levels! At least we know there was indeed a method to their madness. (We can debate how good a method it was til we're blue in the face later.) I agree about the high level characters though. There should be some "more powerful" 36th level characters then others, and not all of them should become 20th. However, if we (and when I say we I mean anyone converting from D&D to AD&D so don't flame me :-) ) do indeed use the High Levels campaign books (which I think is a great book btw) I think we need to be very careful about how many mages we put over 20th level. 1000 36th level D&D mages are nothing (yes and I mean not even a blip on the screen) compared to a dozen or so mages who can effectively use True Dweomers. True Dweomers are limited to mages 20+ level with an 18 int, so that will limit the field a little, but all those 20th level mages will eventually start gaining levels and maybe what to do with them should be addressed now. I know a lot of people don't know much about True Dweomers and I'd be happy to elaborate exactly what they are in e-mail or on the list if there's enough interest. I've also got some True Dweomer examples I've used in my campaign (Jagger's of course) and I'll post them as soon as I can find my notes, if there's any interest in that also. - -Bob - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:41:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Secret Crafts (Was: Synn.) >> IMC he is a gold dragon, because he's lawful. Dragon #170 tells of him >> becoming the new Star Dragon, i.e. the Ruler of All Lawful Dragons, so he >> can only be Gold or Crystal (this last I'm not sure). > >He was the Star Dragon if I remember rightly, its in Gaz 3. It's one of >the Immortal Dragon Rulers forms, so some time in his past he must have >confronted the ruler of that alignment type and defeated that ruler in >fair combat. All this does is banish that immortal to it's home plane or >something along those lines. hope this helped somewhat... > I've looked in Dragon #170 and there's a great article from Bruce Heard about Dragons in Mystara (I'll post a synopsis of it if there's interest but most of it isn't pertinent to this discussion. It's mostly about how Dragons age, and how they progress from small to large to huge to immortality) There is a part however, about the Glantri Dragologists and their relationship with the dragons. Apparently the dragons aren't quite happy about the Dracologists interfering in their culture (go figure) but so few Dracologists understand dragon immortality that they really don't realize how much they affect the Dragon Immortals. It says in this article that Jagger did indeed defeat the Star Dragon, and took his place as ruler of all Lawful Dragons. However, once Jagger realized that this action caused such turmoil among all the dragon spirits and dragon guardians that he gave up the position in an attempt to atone for the damage he had done to dragonkind. It says that the The Great One proclaimed Jagger free from any recrimination that dragons might take out on him for attempting to take over, and that Jagger has begun attempting to redirect the Dracologists in a new direction (working with dragonkind and the immortal nature of dragons instead of subverting, controlling or destroying it.) Jagger also swore an oath to never abuse his Dragon powers or overuse them (the article says that draocologist powers destroy or harm dragon spirits, but it doesn't elaborate.) So, I'm back where I was. What color is Jagger now? It's possible the Great One, so honored a mortal decided to consider the dragons above himself allowed Jagger to keep the form and powers of the Star Dragon, but then there'd be 2. (The article forecasts that Dragon Guardians (Immortal Dragons) would begin competing for the now vacant postion shortly.) Or perhaps he went back to his old dragon type, Gold, Brown...Buehler...Buehler? Maybe this little encounter gives an explanation on how Jagger gained so many levels? (How many other mages became an Immortal ruler of all Lawful Dragons, then gave up the power willingly? Maybe some of that power "rubbed off" on him?) This is getting interesting... - -Bob - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 22:33:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mystara] Sun/moon rise/set times This is a little dry, but I had nothing better to do for an hour, so.. :) I'm not entirely sure about some of the sun- times near the poles, and have marked them with ?s. SUNRISE & SUNSET Approx.-----Degrees--------------Sunrise------------ Location----Latitude--Winter--Spring--Summer--Fall-- N. Pole 90 North 12:00pm 8:45am?12:00am 2:50am? ? 80 North 10:50am 8:05am? 1:00am 3:35am? ? 70 North 9:40am 7:30am? 1:55am 4:15am? Farend 60 North 8:35am 7:00am 2:50am 4:55am Landfall 50 North 7:05am 6:35am 4:35am 5:30am ? 40 North 6:50am 6:30am 4:50am 5:35am Thyatis 30 North 6:40am 6:25am 5:00am 5:35am Thanegioth 20 North 6:25am 6:20am 5:20am 5:45am ? 10 North 6:40am 6:05am 5:40am 5:50am Equator 0 5:55am 5:55am 5:55am 5:55am ? 10 South 5:40am 5:50am 6:40am 6:05am ? 20 South 5:20am 5:45am 6:25am 6:20am ? 30 South 5:00am 5:35am 6:40am 6:25am ? 40 South 4:50am 5:35am 6:50am 6:30am ? 50 South 4:35am 5:30am 7:05am 6:35am ? 60 South 2:50am 4:55am 8:35am 7:00am ? 70 South 1:55am 4:15am? 9:40am 7:30am? ? 80 South 1:00am 3:35am?10:50am 8:05am? S. Pole 90 South 12:00am 2:50am?12:00pm 8:45am? Approx.-----Degrees---------------Sunset------------ Location----Latitude--Winter--Spring--Summer--Fall-- N. Pole 90 North 12:00pm 4:00pm?12:00am 9:20pm? ? 80 North 1:05pm 4:35pm?11:00pm 8:30pm? ? 70 North 2:05pm 5:05pm?10:00pm 7:45pm? Farend 60 North 3:05pm 5:30pm 9:05pm 7:05pm Landfall 50 North 4:35pm 5:50pm 7:25pm 6:30pm ? 40 North 4:50pm 5:55pm 7:10pm 6:25pm Thyatis 30 North 5:00pm 6:00pm 6:55pm 6:25pm Thanegioth 20 North 5:20pm 6:05pm 6:35pm 6:15pm ? 10 North 5:40pm 6:00pm 6:15pm 6:05pm Equator 0 5:55pm 5:55pm 5:55pm 5:55pm ? 10 South 6:15pm 6:05pm 5:40pm 6:00pm ? 20 South 6:35pm 6:15pm 5:20pm 6:05pm ? 30 South 6:55pm 6:25pm 5:00pm 6:00pm ? 40 South 7:10pm 6:25pm 4:50pm 5:55pm ? 50 South 7:25pm 6:30pm 4:35pm 5:50pm ? 60 South 9:05pm 7:05pm 3:05pm 5:30pm ? 70 South 10:00pm 7:45pm? 2:05pm 5:05pm? ? 80 South 11:00pm 8:30pm? 1:05pm 4:35pm? S. Pole 90 South 12:00am 9:20pm?12:00pm 4:00pm? Twilight lasts 30 minutes before and after sunset and sunrise. - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 90 degrees N ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 9:00pm-5:00am 3:00am-10:00pm 3:00pm-6:00pm #2 FQ 10:00pm-7:00am 6:00am-11:00am 5:00pm-9:00pm #3 FM 11:00pm-8:00am 9:00am-1:00pm 7:00pm-12:00am #4 LQ 1:00am-9:00am 12:00pm-3:00pm 8:00pm-3:00am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 80 degrees N ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 8:40pm-5:20am 2:40am-10:20pm 2:40pm-6:20pm #2 FQ 9:40pm-7:20am 5:40am-11:20pm 4:40pm-9:20pm #3 FM 10:40pm-8:20am 8:40am-1:20pm 6:40pm-12:20am #4 LQ 12:40am-9:20am 11:40am-3:20pm 7:40pm-3:20am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 70 degrees N ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 8:20pm-5:40am 2:20am-10:40pm 2:20pm-6:40pm #2 FQ 9:20pm-7:40am 5:20am-11:40pm 4:20pm-9:40pm #3 FM 10:20pm-8:40am 8:20am-1:40pm 6:20pm-12:40am #4 LQ 12:20am-9:40am 11:20am-3:40pm 7:20pm-3:40am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER FAREND (60 degrees N) ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 8:00pm-6:00am 2:00am-11:00am 2:00pm-7:00pm #2 FQ 9:00pm-8:00am 5:00am-12:00pm 4:00pm-10:00pm #3 FM 10:00pm-9:00am 8:00am-2:00pm 6:00pm-1:00am #4 LQ 12:00am-10:00am 11:00am-4:00pm 7:00pm-4:00am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER LANDFALL (50 degrees N) ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 7:40pm-6:20am 1:40am-11:20am 1:40pm-7:20pm #2 FQ 8:40pm-8:20am 4:40am-12:20pm 3:40pm-10:20pm #3 FM 9:40pm-9:20am 7:40am-2:20pm 5:40pm-1:20am #4 LQ 11:40pm-10:20am 10:40am-4:20pm 6:40pm-4:20am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 40 degrees N ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 7:20pm-6:40am 1:20am-11:40am 1:20pm-7:40pm #2 FQ 8:20pm-8:40am 4:20am-12:40pm 3:20pm-10:40pm #3 FM 9:20pm-9:40am 7:20am-2:40pm 5:20pm-1:40am #4 LQ 11:20pm-10:40am 10:20am-4:40pm 6:20pm-4:40am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER GLANTRI (37.5 degrees N) ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 7:15pm-6:45am 1:15am-11:45am 1:15pm-7:45pm #2 FQ 8:15pm-8:45am 4:15am-12:45pm 3:15pm-10:45pm #3 FM 9:15pm-9:45am 7:15am-2:45pm 5:15pm-1:45am #4 LQ 11:15pm-10:45am 10:15am-4:45pm 6:15pm-4:45am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER THYATIS (30 degrees N) ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 7:00pm-7:00am 1:00am-12:00pm 1:00pm-8:00pm #2 FQ 8:00pm-9:00am 4:00am-1:00pm 3:00pm-11:00pm #3 FM 9:00pm-10:00am 7:00am-3:00pm 5:00pm-2:00am #4 LQ 11:00pm-11:00am 10:00am-5:00pm 6:00pm-5:00am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER THANEGIOTH (20 degrees N) ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 6:40pm-7:20am 12:40am-12:20pm 12:40pm-8:20pm #2 FQ 7:40pm-9:20am 3:40am-1:20pm 2:40pm-11:20pm #3 FM 8:40pm-10:20am 6:40am-3:20pm 4:40pm-2:20am #4 LQ 10:40pm-11:20am 9:40am-5:20pm 5:40pm-5:20am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 10 degrees N ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 6:20pm-7:40am 12:20am-12:40pm 12:20pm-8:40pm #2 FQ 7:20pm-9:40am 3:20am-1:40pm 2:20pm-11:40pm #3 FM 8:20pm-10:40am 6:20am-3:40pm 4:20pm-2:40am #4 LQ 10:20pm-11:40am 9:20am-5:40pm 5:20pm-5:40am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER EQUATOR ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 6:00pm-8:00am 12:00am-1:00pm 12:00pm-9:00pm #2 FQ 7:00pm-10:00am 3:00am-2:00pm 2:00pm-12:00am #3 FM 8:00pm-11:00am 6:00am-4:00pm 4:00pm-3:00am #4 LQ 10:00pm-12:00pm 9:00am-6:00pm 5:00pm-6:00am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 10 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 5:40pm-8:20am 11:40pm-1:20pm 11:40am-9:20pm #2 FQ 6:40pm-10:20am 2:40am-2:20pm 1:40pm-12:20am #3 FM 7:40pm-11:20am 5:40am-4:20pm 3:40pm-3:20am #4 LQ 9:40pm-12:20pm 8:40am-6:20pm 4:40pm-6:20am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 20 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 5:20pm-8:40am 11:20pm-1:40pm 11:20am-9:40pm #2 FQ 6:20pm-10:40am 2:20am-2:40pm 1:20pm-12:40am #3 FM 7:20pm-11:40am 5:20am-4:40pm 3:20pm-3:40am #4 LQ 9:20pm-12:40pm 8:20am-6:40pm 4:20pm-6:40am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 30 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 5:00pm-9:00am 11:00am-2:00pm 11:00pm-10:00pm #2 FQ 6:00pm-11:00am 2:00am-3:00pm 1:00pm-1:00am #3 FM 7:00pm-12:00pm 5:00am-5:00pm 3:00pm-4:00am #4 LQ 9:00pm-1:00pm 8:00am-7:00pm 4:00pm-7:00am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 40 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 4:40pm-9:20am 10:40pm-2:20pm 10:40am-10:20pm #2 FQ 5:40pm-11:20am 3:40am-3:20pm 12:40pm-1:20pm #3 FM 6:40pm-12:20pm 4:40am-5:20pm 2:40pm-4:20am #4 LQ 8:40pm-1:20pm 7:40am-7:20pm 3:40pm-7:20am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 50 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 4:20pm-9:40am 10:20pm-2:40pm 10:20am-10:40pm #2 FQ 5:20pm-11:40am 3:20am-3:40pm 12:20pm-1:40pm #3 FM 6:20pm-12:40pm 4:20am-5:40pm 2:20pm-4:40am #4 LQ 8:20pm-1:40pm 7:20am-7:40pm 3:20pm-7:40am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 60 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 4:00pm-10:00am 10:00pm-3:00pm 10:00am-11:00pm #2 FQ 5:00pm-12:00am 1:00am-4:00pm 12:00pm-2:00am #3 FM 6:00pm-1:00pm 4:00am-6:00pm 2:00pm-5:00am #4 LQ 8:00pm-2:00pm 7:00am-8:00pm 3:00pm-8:00am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 70 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 3:40pm-10:20am 9:40pm-3:20pm 9:40am-11:20am #2 FQ 4:40pm-12:20pm 12:40am-4:20pm 11:40am-2:20am #3 FM 5:40pm-1:20pm 3:40am-7:20pm 1:40pm-5:20am #4 LQ 7:40pm-2:20pm 6:40am-8:20pm 2:40pm-8:20am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 80 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 3:20pm-10:40am 9:20pm-3:40pm 9:20am-11:40am #2 FQ 4:20pm-12:40pm 12:20am-4:40pm 11:20am-2:40am #3 FM 5:20pm-1:40pm 3:20am-7:40pm 1:20pm-5:40am #4 LQ 7:20pm-2:40pm 6:20am-8:40pm 2:20pm-8:40am - ------------------------------------------------ MOON APPEARANCES OVER 90 degrees S ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ #1 NM 3:00pm-11:00am 9:00pm-4:00pm 9:00am-12:00am #2 FQ 4:00pm-1:00pm 12:00am-5:00pm 11:00am-3:00am #3 FM 5:00pm-2:00pm 3:00am-8:00pm 1:00pm-6:00am #4 LQ 7:00pm-3:00pm 6:00am-9:00pm 2:00pm-9:00am - ------------------------------------------------ - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #84 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #85 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, 17 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 085 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Urklore The Iron Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:53:21 GMT Subject: [Mystara] problems Is anyone having problems with this list? ************************************************************************ * Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord * * Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) * * Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord * * Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the Netdisks, Keeper of 79 RPG Systems * * Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling * * Level 6.5 Thief (Evil insane mocking laughter), ROBOTECH Master * * Official Tiac Customer/Tech Support Employee!! Muad'dib Disciple * * "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" * * "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." * * "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:04:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Jaggar's Color Howdy, GAZ3 says that lawful dracologists can choose between gold and crystal. If Jaggar chose crystal, I would think that clear clothing would be somewhat inappropriate for a prince. (Wasn't there a fairy tale about that?) Any way, I suggest that white is the color for dracologists specializing in crystal dragons. Like Dragon #170, GAZ3 also equates Jaggar with the star dragon. However, the Glantri boxed set says that wizards can not link with dragon immortals. Of course, Jaggar is a special case. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:20:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Sun/Moon Risings Just out of curiosity, were the tables just posted extrapolations of the previously published tables, or is the information revised to better reflect "reality?" Inquiring minds want to know. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:11:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] X4, X5, and WotI Hi all, I have a quick question regarding the Desert Nomad series. How does the success or failure of the characters in X4 and X5 affect the events in Wrath of the Immortals? I have the two modules, but haven't looked through them in several years. From what I can tell, X10 (modified to better fit the circumstances) should work fairly well. Thanks in advance, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:13:17 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] True dweomers and Dragon dragon stuff Bob Kaelin wrote: >I know a lot of people don't know much about True Dweomers and I'd be happy >to elaborate exactly what they are in e-mail or on the list if there's >enough interest. I've also got some True Dweomer examples I've used in my and >I've looked in Dragon #170 and there's a great article from Bruce Heard >about Dragons in Mystara (I'll post a synopsis of it if there's interest >but most of it isn't pertinent to this discussion. It's mostly about how >Dragons age, and how they progress from small to large to huge to >immortality) There is a part however, about the Glantri Dragologists and >their relationship with the dragons. Please do elaborate on both topics, if you will. Thanks, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:27:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] WotI Ideas Hi all, I have another quick question/request. I'm just starting to run WotI with my gaming group. Can anyone offer any suggestions/information on the following: 1) improving the story line 2) news items/events taking place during the time period 3) adventure ideas which relate to the plot as a whole for when the PC's are between the various adventure phases (other than those already presented in WotI) 4) how WotI went for other DM's when they ran it 5) anything else you care to impart Thanks for your assistance, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:53:16 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) > I was completely unable to give challenges to my three 36.th Level Fighter, > two 36.th Level Mages and the 36.th Level Cleric ... > This team was *increadible* ;-| How about: - - 6 36th level Fighters, 4 36th level Mages and 2 36th level Clerics with all the goods and sweets, played with intelligence - - 10 Antimagical Giants - - Fiends and Titans - - Alphaks and Orcus on picnik :) - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:59:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Golorius-Mystara immortal *new immortal for mystara* Golorius Rank Novice Temporal Patron of Politicans Sphere Thought Al Chaotic as mortal, neutral as immortal Golorius grew up as a thief in the city of Dophius. He always craved gold and power. Seeing Milenian politics in action, he figured his gold tongue could help him achieve fame and power through the system. So he set out to advance in politics, starting with a campaign for magistrate. Winning without using any backhanded tricks, he figured it was a breeze and quickly won chief magistarte soon after. Having made enemies around the way and also seeking to bolster his reputation, he joined some wandering adventurers trying to help Milenia. Anyways, making a life adventuring while keeping office was hard but Golorius persevered. Soon, Golorius was running for senator and winning, his life saved from assasination by his friends. His run as senator was succesful until a series of events the year before the election. His area was hit by earthquake,plague,comet and meteor?(natural disaster starts with m-couldnt read my writing though) in a span of 1 year, causing the voters to panic. Blaming these horrific, supernatural events on the senator was easy and the charismatic politician was booted from offfice. Setting his life to adventuring over the next few years, Golorius rose in power. He eventually helped clear out the Carnifex invasion, earning him the Rainbow realm and helpinghim achieve immortality. Since he has become immortal, he had little to do. The rainbow realm is naturally quiet and peaceful, giving him plenty of time to concentrate on future projects. He decided to sponsor the people who were in his image, namely politicians. Choosing only those who were semi-honest but plenty charismatic to sponsor, he was able to build a small base of support in the Milenian Senate, which is the current situation. Symbol:A speechmaker's podium with the griffon symbol of Milenia on it Enemies:Halav and Petra are wary that Golorius is trying to steal power from them and transfer it to himself-hence they have started moving against his factions in the Senate. Nyx/Zargos also dislikes any new mover and shaker in Milenia. Allies:Asterius was the patron of Golorius throughout life and still considers the immortal his understudy in many ways. Korotiku allies with anyone who sponsors trickery. And Jammaradu also likes the idea of a patron of politicians, because they always need to seek revenge. Followers:Several politicans in Milenia only. All followers must have a 14 CHR to be accepted. Also, Golorius does not tolerate absolutely evil, power-hungry followers. He also doesn't tolerate goody two-shoes scared to bend the truth. He has no clerical followers yet(or mages)(0r mystics). Stats: Alignment C as mortal, N as immortal Class(mortal) Thief-level 36(Milenian) THAC0 *12 w/spear+5 THAC0 immortal 5 HD 20 HP Immortal 100 HP Mortal 67(12 at level 9 I guess...) AC Immortal 0 AC Mortal 5 Armor Mortal LA+2 Weapons Mortal GM w/ Spear+5 and LBow+1,MA at Pankration and UNSK w/ trident and javelin which he used as mortal also Stats(same mortal/immortal): STR 6 INT 7 WIS 7 DEX 11 CON 8 CHR 16 Talents(grtr) 25 Talents(lssr) 30 Walk 150' Fly 360' Run 300' Gas Form 720' Ht 5'4" as mortal,4'11" as immortal Wt 130# as mortal,100# as immortal Skills(Mortal form):Oratory 17,Deceive 17,Bargain 17, Stringed Music 16, Sing 16, Persuade 16, Etiquette 16,Bounder Riding 11(???),Det. Deception 16 A-m 50% Aura-affects -1 :> at -2 to save PP 500 (sorry about the delay-maybe last immortal post for a month too) Reagan lived to invade really SMALL islands -Prof.Sims after one of his Cuban History students asked about the likelihood of reaction to the recent events in Cuba if Reagan was still in charge,citing Grenada as an example of Reagan approaches ------------------------------ From: Orion Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:28:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mystara] Admin Mail Problems... Not to think that anyone really wants to talk to me, but if they did, and tried to send mail to my .edu account, they would have problems. The U of I mail server hard drive crashed, and I cannot recieve mail there until it is fixed. Any personal e-mail should be mailed to me at my io.com address. Thanks. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your world is dying, a shell of existence whose time has come to an end. I am here to show you rebirth, an evolution of being. The fact that millions shall die is of no consequence" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tiamat, _Darkglory_ ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sun, 17 Mar 96 10:12:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] D&D to AD&D Level Conversions - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Saturday, 16-Mar-96 08:25 PM > > From: Robert Kaelin \ Internet: (kaelin@natural.com) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] D&D to AD&D Level Conversions > > 1000 36th level D&D mages are nothing (yes and I mean not even a blip on the > screen) compared to a dozen or so mages who can effectively use True Dweomers. > True Dweomers are limited to mages 20+ level with an 18 int, so that will limit > the field a little, but all those 20th level mages will eventually start > gaining levels and maybe what to do with them should be addressed now. > > I know a lot of people don't know much about True Dweomers and I'd be happy to > elaborate exactly what they are in e-mail or on the list if there's enough > interest. I've also got some True Dweomer examples I've used in my campaign > (Jagger's of course) and I'll post them as soon as I can find my notes, if > there's any interest in that also. > > -Bob > - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Hi, I wouldn't mind a quick-and-dirty briefing, as well as your Jagger example. Email me directly if no one's interested? BTW, this is from a newer ADD rulebook? TIA, Shelby7@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:08:40 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] True dweomers (long) OK, first a short (After typing it out and looking back I had to laugh at the word short) explanation then I found some examples I've had Jagger use (i knew the spells but it's been a while since I looked at the formulas I used to come up with the difficulties.) A first level mage can be taught to hurl magic missiles, a 13 year old apprentice can even be taught a few cantrips but how much of the nature of magic do they really understand? They understand how to gesture the somatic components, how to speak the verbal components in a clear, commanding tone, and how to care for and preserve their material components. Most importantly they learn how imbed patterns of magical energy into their minds for releasing at a later time, but (like in many of my former History classes) they only learn to spew out what they've already learned, they have little better understanding of the nature of magic then before. Of course, they can research new spells but it's a matter of trial and error. They try to come up with a new pattern they can memorize and spew forth on demand, again what do they really understand? At their most powerful, a "noramal" mage may master the ultimate spell Wish. This spell allows the caster to alter reality to suitthe Arch-Mages needs, but the penalty is severe (5 years of aging, possible disability for days and the very real chance that their spells intent may be peverted beyond their control.) Wish, is essentially the Arch-Mages chance to beg a the powers of magic for attention, but he/she gives up control of the outcome and again, What does he/she understand of how it works? At high levels (20+) gifted mages with the most finely tuned minds (18+ Int) can actually begin to grasp the true nature of magic and manipulate it directly without relying on rote formulas. This is a True Dweomer. True Dweomers are a caster's personal manipulation of magic, and as such they can just about any effect the caster desires, they tend to take much longer to prepare then researching even 9th level spells and for most of them there's a chance they may fail. The caster, however, understands fully why the spell does/doesn't work but this does not guarentee successive castings of the same TD will work, but improves the chance (there a small bonus to the difficulty). TD's cannot be recorded on scrolls, in spellbooks or put into magic items as they all lack the understanding necessary. Basic formulas can be recorded, but these are only intelligable to someone capable of casting TD's and only help a little to the final difficulty (since exact functionality of a TD vary slightly with each casting.) The caster is free to vary the effect of the spell, the arch-mage builds a list of schools and types. For example, Diviniation is broken into Forsee (future viewing) and Reveal (seeing more in the present); Alertation is broken down into Animate, Destroy, Fortify, Transform, and Transport. Each of these has a base difficulty and this difficulty can be multiplies for increased affects. A single difficulty Alertation (Transform) could perhaps enlarge the targets, while an triple or quadruple difficulty Alteration (Transform) could change the targets into objects like a Polymorph any object. The caster is free to mix and match as many different effects into one spell as he cares to, but each adds to the cumulative difficulty. (There's really no limit to what a TD can do, but as you add more effects the difficulty gets way out of hand, taking years and tons of special material components to work). The caster also has control over the spells Range, Area of Effect and Duration. Each of these are defaulted to minimal values (touch for range, 1 creature or a 5X5 area for Area of Effect, and Instantaneous for Duration.) The cast can improve these spells tbeyond virtually any limit. Ranges can span planes, or even go beyond planar boundries, Area of Effects can even span planes. (It is theoretically possible for a TD to effect every creature on a entire plane of existance, but the additiion to the difficulty would be 1600 points and the difficulty needs to be reduced to under 100 to be have a chance of working. So it would take a quest for material components that would span many planes and probably take the fortunes of an entire nation to get a chance to work. But it does make for one hell of a high level quest for PC's though.) Now that the caster has the effects of the spell in mind, he can either spend years researching it or reduce the difficulty by adding conditions and material components. To keep a long story short (too late) components and condition are either common (no effect, like dirt or a sword) rare (little effect and usually something the caster can just buy or acquire without a lot of effort, like a 10k gem or a minor magic item like a +1 Sword) or exotic (very helpful to difficulty but requires a special quest or good role-playing to get.) The caster can also put in special processes, limits to how the spell can be used in the 3 same categories as material components. Once the final difficulty is deteremined a table shows how long it takes to prepare (research) and cast the spell. The casting times can be anywhere from a day to a week, and the preperation times can vary from none (the caster can cast the spell whenever he chooses) to years. There's a limit to the number of spells a caster can have prepared at once, or cast in a day based on level. The caster must also role a % dice above the final difficulty to see if it works, or else all the material components and processes are used up and nothing happens. True Dweomers cannot be affects by any spell of less then TD status Dispel Magic, spells of protection, even prismatic spheres are useless against a TD. Only a TD can block or dispel another TD. Dispel magic is partially effective, but it can only prevent the effects for 1-4 rounds, and only if the dispel can fully encompass the area of the TD, and only if it's solely used against the TD. I highly recommend the book btw. And left out the exact tables, examples, and some details so hopefully some more poeple will buy it. (The more who do makes it more likely TSR will use it more often.) In the following post will be my examples from Jagger. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:04:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Admin Mail Problems... On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Orion wrote: > Not to think that anyone really wants to talk to me, but if they did, > and tried to send mail to my .edu account, they would have problems. The > U of I mail server hard drive crashed, and I cannot recieve mail there > until it is fixed. > Any personal e-mail should be mailed to me at my io.com address. > Thanks. How's that for speedy mail? I recieved this about two days after I sent it. My .edu account is back up and working fine, so if anyone needs to chat this address will work. Although I missed a bunch of mail to this list at this time, I did read the digest's. I have Daniel's lunar stuff, and the new Immortal someone (sorry, I forget who) posted, and these will be added to the e-mail accessible site. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Another slave and a victim of fate, another lesson in hate." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Burning Inside ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 17 Mar 96 18:09:16 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] Glantrian geography I own the Italian version of Gaz3 and it has several typos, can someone please tell me the name of: - - The tower (barony ?) between Skullhorn pass and Bramyra - - The name of the river that borders both Klantrye and Bergdhoven Thanks. BTW: mail those infos to me privately at brizio@lunet.it ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 17 Mar 96 18:08:44 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] War machine The rules for Mass Combat in RC state that a PC earns XP both for commanding a force and for performing heroics (page 121). In case he is commanding a force he earns a number of XP equal to the number of troops in the enemy army if he wins, or 1/3 of that if he lose. Let's suppose the PCs don't perform heroics, then what happens if: 1) The PC is a mere soldier ? 2) The PC is an officer, but not the army commander (e.g. sergeant in a regiment commanded by an NPC captain) ? 3) A PC is the army commander, the others are his advisors, his deputy commanders or captains of a small part of his army (e.g. general and captains) ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:00:09 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Jagger's Iron Army (True Dweomer) OK, here goes. Jaggers Iron Army (Alteration/Diviniation) Type: Transport (x3), Reveal (X3) Range: Plane (Mostly Principality of Aalban) Duration: 1 Day Base Diff: 280 Final Diff: 28 Prep Time: 1 Day Casting Time: 1 Turn Area of Effect: Province (Also Aaalban) Saving Throw: n/a Jagger created this True Dweomer based on an idea given to him by his friend Herr Rolf von Graustein. Rolf now incorporates the 20k emerald required for this spell into each new Iron Golem he creates and has retrofitted all existing Iron Golems with them. (The acquirement of the emeralds was a major quest into the Elemental plane of earth by the PC's, for the curious.) This Dweomer allows the caster to facilitate the use and movement of a number of Iron Golems under his command. (The necessity for creating the golems, and having them take orders from the caster is an exotic condition). With this spell, Jagger may teleport any number of Iron Golem's under his command anywhere within his Principality (but to only one location per round.) He may give any subset of golems under his command a simple order (like kill the mage attacking you) or may give one golem a more specific instruction (like pick up the body of the mage and carry it back to my tower.) Jagger may see through the eyes of any golem he chooses one per round, but this requires complete concentration during that round. When Jagger peers through the eyes of one of his golems, it's eyes light up with a bright golden light. He can use any detection spell he currently has active, detect magic, evil, etc. of below 5th level through the golem's eyes as well. When Jagger uses a golems senses, he also has a fairly good idea of how injured the golem is, and what the golem has been doing the past few rounds. The death of any golem affected by this spell will send a signal to Jagger (which will not harm or distract him) to make him aware one of his has fallen. Any round in which Jagger doesn't use a golem senses, issue commands (either simple commands to many or detailed commands to one) or teleport any number of them anywhere he may cast any other spell or use any other power freely. The viewing powers and teleportation powers of this Dweomer are unaffected by any other magic of less then True Dweomer status. This was discover by some poor Alphatian mages who though themselves save inside their Prismatic Spheres. Only to be surprised (and bludgeoned) when 4 Iron Golems appeared inside their spheres. Large ammounts of lead or very large ammounts of stone will prevent the viewing powers however. Conditions on this spell require the golems to be imbedded with 20k+ emeralds prepared for this spell specifically (which are not destroyed in casting) and Jagger is required to remain with his inner sanctum while casting. (A rare condition) should he leave his tower the spell duration immediately ends. Material components for this spell are as follows: one cold iron sword for every golem to be affected (common) A detailed map of the principailty (rare), a battle standard Aalban from a victorius battle (rare), the wing of a dragon (rare) any semi-sentient iron creation (iron cobras, golems etc.) (exotic) The creation used as a component is consumed in the spell. Jagger tries to use simpler creations but has no qualm about sacrificing an iron golem to use this spell if necessary. History: Jagger has used this Dweomer twice in the past. During the final days of the war with Alphatia, when the council finally began it's assault on Glantri itself with summoned creatures and hurling devistating magics Jagger used this power to send his 83 iron golems to defend his principality (The number of golems is given in the Glantri Boxed Set). In the 2 days of using this spell (he cast it twice) he has confirmed that he has slain 8 Alphatian council members, and forced a dozen or so more to flee as well as a lot of lesser mages and their summoned creatures. Jagger lost 38 of his golems, and Rolf has already begun to replace those. In the 2 days of using this spell Jagger destroyed 90% of all summoned creatures called into his principality. Basically he and Rolf used crystal balls and reports from his army to locate areas of trouble then sent a legion of Iron Golems to the spot. By contrast most of principalities have barely cut the number of foul creatures (IMC 3 years after their summoning) by half. Jagger's use of this spell had an unforseen side effect. Reports of Iron Golems so far spread over the Principality have lead some of his fellow princes and others to assume Jagger has a supply of thousands of Iron Golems hidden all over Aalban. Jagger can barely supress a smile when he hears this rumor, but does nothing to discourage it. He will only use this spell if his principality is threatened severly (and it's use only requires him to take 2 days off from defending all of Glantri which he still keeps up on through communication spells to his lieutenants). (I'll do the others in sepearte posts, this got way too long.) - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #85 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #86 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, 17 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 086 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 17 Mar 96 18:08:32 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Where's Teldon? At 15.58 16/03/96 -0500, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > >So, what does this all mean? In order to smooth over most of the >conflicts, my explanation is that Terari actually settled in Karameikos >late in AC1008 and became friends with Teldon then. At that time, the >two of them, along with the rest of the Magicians' Guild, began kicking >around the idea of the new school. Sometime after the week without >magic in AC1009 came Teldon's battle with the mechanical beholder. >Because of the mass destruction caused by the incident, King Stefan got >involved with the discussions about the school. Terari suggested >Krakatos as the site, and Stefan agreed. He made his announcement on >Nuwmont 1, 1010, and construction began on Felmont 1 with Terari as the >advisor for the project. On Ambyrmont 23, Terari was named Headmaster of >the school and Minister of Magic. > >Have I left anything out? Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions are >encouraged and solicited. > > Your explanation doesn't get along with PWA1, where it states quite clearly that on Felmont 11 Terari makes his first visit to Krakatos and for the first time he meets Teldon. This means that: 1) Terari didn't settle in Karameikos late in AC1008 and became friends with Teldon then; 2) The battle between Teldon and the beholder actually happened after Felmont 11 AC1010. So, now there are two possible explanations: 1) Teldon disappearing took place after Felmont 11, but before Ambyrmont 23 (Terari becomes Headmaster) and probably after Ambyrmont 11 (Terari is only advisor). 2) Teldon, seeing that Terari is a really learned mage, steps aside leaving to his powerful new friend the role of Headmaster of the school. In this case his disappearence may take place at any moment before the opening of the school. Why wasn't he mentioned in the "distinguished dead" section ? I don't know, probably he wasn't considered a distinguished person, or his disappearance wasn't actually a death. I know that my explanations aren't completely consistent with what's written in Dragon 207, but I prefer following PWA, than the words of an Halfling (Joshuan Gallidox). :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:25:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sun/Moon Risings > Just out of curiosity, were the tables just posted extrapolations of the > previously published tables, or is the information revised to better > reflect "reality?" Inquiring minds want to know. They're extrapolations. The moon table gives exact numbers to follow, but I averaged/guessed with the suntimes. Anything outside 60 degrees either direction is pure speculation.. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Flight of Dragons (True Dweomer) Jagger actually found details of this True Dweomer in his father's library (not enough to be helpful in casting but apparently he wasn't the first to think of the idea.) (It's actually been passed down through many, many generations of von Drachenfels.) Flight of Dragons (Alteration) Type: Fortify (x2), Transform (X4) Range: 100 yards Duration: 1 week Diff: 310 Final Diff: 6 Prep Time: 1 day Casting time: 1 round Area of effect: 24 beings Saving Throw: Neg This Dweomer transforms the affected beings (qualifications for the beings come later) into Wyrm Gold Dragons, with all of their powers and abilities (with the exception of dragon magic). Those affected instincively know how to use all of their powers and abilities like flight, breath weapon, spell-like powers, and all attacks. In all respects, for 1 week those affected are Wyrm Gold Dragons. They can speak any language they knew previously, but may not cast spells (even if they could before). This spell does not guarentee the loyalty of those affected, but those loyal to the caster before it's casting will remain so. (And Jagger carefully screens the alignments of those he considers using this spell on.) This spell puts a tremendous strain on the forms of those affected and only beings of name level and above (9+) with a very high stamina (17+ Con) can survive the spells affect. (Jagger has composed an elite company of warriors for just such an emergency.) Any being of less levels or less Con dies upon being affected by this spell (but may be raised normally). (These warriors are a rare condition.) This spell may only be cast by a dracologist (or one who was trained as a dracologist). (Also a rare condition). The material components Jagger intends to use are: a piece of clothing from every being to be affected (common) a painting of a man and a dragon using very expensing oils (at least 5000 gp.) painted by a reknowned artist. (rare) a tooth of a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, freely given to the caster (Exotic) a non magical weapon used to strike the killing blow of any dragon of adult or higher age. (also exotic) History: Jagger has never cast this spell. Since his understanding of the nature of immortal dragons he's realized that casting of this spell would consume the essences of many dragon spirits. This would annoy the Great One to no end, and would probably seriously harm the relations of the two. He has, however, gone to the trouble of gathering the necessary components, and forming an elite military unit to cast this spell upon. Jagger will only use this spell if all other hope fails, and the armies of Glantri's enemies have laid waste to most of Glantri. (He was close in the end of WotI but couldn't bring himself to destroy so many dragon spirits until all hope was lost. Then his enemy sank so that solved that little problem.) This spell is one of Jagger's most guarded secrets (and that says something there). He has no intention of letting anyone, especially the Great One, learn of it's existance, until there is no other choice. Jagger has not attached his name to this spell (a rarity for mages who make such powerful magics) because he does not want to be known in the History of Dragons as the person who caused them so much harm should it become necessary. He will agonize over his decision, but will do it to defend his nation. - -Bob - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:00:08 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Jagger's Thunderous Strike (True Dweomer) This actually a version of the spell Tenser's Telling Blow, detailed in the High Level Campaigns(copywrite TSR) book. Jagger's Thrunderous Strike (Invoication/Evocation) Type: Strike Range: Line of Sight Duration: Instantaneous Difficulty: 160 Final Diff: -12 (still fails on a % roll of 1-5) Prep Time: None Casting Time: 1 Round Area of Effect: 50x50 area 5' high. (1250 cubic feet) Saving Throw: 1/2 This spell creates a blinding blast of pure force to strike the area of effect doing 20d8 +20 damage to all beings (save for half damage). At least one target in the area must be engaged in a combat act (attacking by melee, missle or spell). (a rare condition.) The spell will break through any defensive spell of less then True Dweomer status that may try to stop it. It doesn't dispel the effect, just ignores it's existance for purposes of the attack. The material components of this spell are: any weapon (common) the tooth or claw from a dragon of young adult or older (rare) a horseshoe worn in battle by a warhorse (rare) the shards of diamond shatter by a single blow from a Great Wyrm Dragon (exotic) a cloth dampened by the tears of a greaving widow (or widower) (exotic) History: This spell is Jagger's heavy artiliery on the field of battle. He uses it on archers or spellcasters who are doing damage to his troops but staying out of melee. He's used it a dozen or so times so far (he actually chooses to personally notify family members of slain heros in battle to gain the tear soaked cloth component, not an easy task emotionally). He doesn't hide this spells existance, but most of his fellow mages just assume it's some normal, but very powerful, Invoker thing. That's all I have so far for Jaggers TD's. If we can decide on what other mages might translate into higher then 20th level (The book says it requires just 20th, but since there are so many I've upped the requirement to above 20th.) I'd be glad to try and fashion some spells form them as well. - -Bob - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 WWW: USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sun, 17 Mar 96 10:07 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sun/moon rise/set times Daniel: At 22:33 03/16/96 -0800, you wrote: >This is a little dry, but I had nothing better to do for an hour, so.. :) >I'm not entirely sure about some of the sun- times near the poles, and=20 >have marked them with ?s. - ---8<--snipped--8<--- Thanks for posting this, although, perhaps someone who has spent time=20 in the north can verify TSR's stats and your calculations. For example,=20 isn't it the case that areas over the arctic circle and below the=20 antaractic circle have periods of 24 hours of sun/darkness? Perhaps=20 this chart needs a bit of work... Okay, digging out ye olde World Book Encyclopedia (1980 ed), the entry on the Arctic Circle says (with bits specific to Earth removed or re-phrased to fit Mystara): Points on the Arctic Circle lie at 66=B030' north latitude.... The=20 Arctic Circle marks the edge of an area where the sun stays above=20 the horizon one or more days each year. The sun never sets there on the longest day of summer, [Felmont 15]. The sun never rises=20 there on the shortest day of winter, [Newmont 15]. At the=20 [Geographic] North Pole itself, the sun is visible [3 months]=20 before and [3 months] after [Midsummer], if the sky is clear. It=20 stays below the horizon for the same time before and after=20 [Midwinter]. (Note on dates: I picked the Midwinter and Midsummer dates based on the fact that the Thyatian Calendar claims that the first day of summer is=20 Klarmont 1 and the first day of winter is Kaldmont 1.) As you can see, this means that the line you've given for the North Pole might be more acurate for the Arctic Circle. This is, of course, also=20 taking into consideration the fact that the sun doesn't just come up at=20 the same time for three months and then *JUMPS* to coming up at a different= =20 time -- instead it sort of slides along from one time to the other. So, if you set the given times as "Sun rise/set at= MID-Winter/Spring/Summer/Fall" then it works. Seeing as Mystara must have SOME tilt, or we wouldn't get changing seasons= =20 at all, there must be an Arctic Circle. For ease of calculation, lets say Mystara's tilt is a little bit smaller than Earth's and so the Arctic Circle= =20 is at an even 70=B0 North. You know, I think this chart really does need some more work. Let me= think about it some and I'll get back to the list... > MOON APPEARANCES OVER 90 degrees N >=20 > ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ >Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ >#1 NM 9:00pm-5:00am 3:00am-10:00pm 3:00pm-6:00pm >#2 FQ 10:00pm-7:00am 6:00am-11:00am 5:00pm-9:00pm >#3 FM 11:00pm-8:00am 9:00am-1:00pm 7:00pm-12:00am >#4 LQ 1:00am-9:00am 12:00pm-3:00pm 8:00pm-3:00am - ---8<--snipped--8<--- Also, I have to say that I can't possibly accept this, even though it is= =20 given this way on the TSR Western Trail Map. I mean look at Month 2! The= =20 Full Moon appears DURING THE DAY! Seeing as following normal physics, a=20 full moon appears that way because the Sun is, for all intents and=20 purposes, directly opposite it across the body of the planet the moon=20 orbits, it would be impossible to have a full moon AND the sun in the sky=20 at the same time. And I am not willing to accept that the other moon -- Matera(sp?) -- is the cause of this odd behaviour. Unless Mystara is in a binary star system, I can't see where the "full moon" that rises between 9am and 1pm is getting its light source from. Returning to the World Book Encyclopedia, the article on the Moon says: The moon rises and sets at different times. In the new moon phase,=20 it rises above the horizon with the sun in the east and travels=20 close to the sun across the sky. With each passing day, the moon rises an average of about 50 minutes later and drops about 12 degrees farther behind in relation to the sun. By the end of a week -- at the first quarter phase -- the moon rises at about noon and sets at about midnight. In another week -- at full moon -- it rises as the sun sets and sets and the sun rises. At last quarter, it rises at about midnight and sets at about noon. A week later -- back at new moon -- the moon and the sun rise together in the east. Given this information, if we know the sun rise and set schedual, it=20 wouldn't be too difficult to make a more accurate moon appearance table. I'll get back to the list on this too I think.... - -=3D< strawberryJAMM >=3D--- strawberry JAMM -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield jam@wimsey.com -- http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html=20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- unknown ------------------------------ From: toron@tripnet.se (Daniel Niklasson) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:17:24 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] Texts and lists Im new with the world of Mystara.I would be very grateful if eny good person(s) would like to send me, text and lists about Mystara. Like history, Immortals and just about enything u think that I would like. Thanks Daniel Niklasson toron@tripnet.se ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 17 Mar 96 21:15:26 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sun/moon rise/set times At 22.33 16/03/96 -0800, Daniel Boese wrote: [snipped] Hey, great job. Just a note: in PWA2 Landfall is listed as being 40 North, not 50 North. I didn't make all the calculations, so maybe you're right and PWA2 wrong. Anyway let me know where is the mistake. In the same section of PWA2 there are also the Time Zones for various cities. Where would you put Specularum/Mirros and Sayr Ulan. My guess is the 11AM zone for Specularum and the 10AM for Sayr Ulan. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: andmissinato@email.telpress.it (Missinato Andrea) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:22:19 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] Glantri Mages In the Glantrian council there're many powerful mages (all members). Now, I think, how's possible to make any political intrigues with so many people with Detect magic, charm person, clairvoyance, mass charm, and wish (!)? - -- Andrea Missinato andmissinato@email.telpress.it ------------------------------ From: andmissinato@email.telpress.it (Missinato Andrea) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:53:56 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] D&D to AD&D Level Conversions Robert Kaelin wrote: > > >Of course, this doesn't take into account the fact that many prominent NPC's > >(Jaggar included) didn't gain any levels from AC1000 to AC1013. This is > >something that we as a group should probably take a look at. Also, now > >that the High Level Handbook has come out for AD&D, we should > >think about converting 36th level OD&D characters to somewhere in the > >range of 20-30th level in AD&D. > > > >Just some food for thought. Comments, suggestions, and other ideas are > >always encouraged. > > First off, great job going through all those levels! At least we know > there was indeed a method to their madness. (We can debate how good a > method it was til we're blue in the face later.) > > I agree about the high level characters though. There should be some "more > powerful" 36th level characters then others, and not all of them should > become 20th. However, if we (and when I say we I mean anyone converting > from D&D to AD&D so don't flame me :-) ) do indeed use the High Levels > campaign books (which I think is a great book btw) I think we need to be > very careful about how many mages we put over 20th level. > > 1000 36th level D&D mages are nothing (yes and I mean not even a blip on > the screen) compared to a dozen or so mages who can effectively use True > Dweomers. True Dweomers are limited to mages 20+ level with an 18 int, so > that will limit the field a little, but all those 20th level mages will > eventually start gaining levels and maybe what to do with them should be > addressed now. > > I know a lot of people don't know much about True Dweomers and I'd be happy > to elaborate exactly what they are in e-mail or on the list if there's > enough interest. I've also got some True Dweomer examples I've used in my > campaign (Jagger's of course) and I'll post them as soon as I can find my > notes, if there's any interest in that also. Yeah, please post. - -- Andrea Missinato andmissinato@email.telpress.it ------------------------------ From: "D.J. Sahlas" Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:44:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > I have another quick question/request. I'm just starting to run WotI > with my gaming group. Can anyone offer any suggestions/information on the > following: > > 1) improving the story line I found the basic story line pretty good, and just concentrated on sprucing up various aspects of it. Probably the most important things are directly incorporating your PCs into the events mentioned and making their actions count. As an example, my PCs (from Glantri) had campaigned extensively in Karameikos at one point, and were basically responsible for saving Stephan's duchy for him. As a result, he would at least enter into negotiations with the Glantrians before blackly betraying Thyatis and it's allies. > 4) how WotI went for other DM's when they ran it Well, still in progress, really. So far, so good. The only thing that I could not stand to change was The Great War of the Master. I DM two campaigns: one around 1200 AC and another around 1006 (both long-running). X4, X5, and X10 are occurring in the future and that's that for me. But the Master does indeed attack Darokin throughout history, I'm just not using X10 to detail his early attempt. Basically, my WotI campaign centres around a group of Glantrian noble PCs, the the players are very much in the thick of things. One group travelled to Alphatia as ambassadors, and are involved in THAT respect. This group has also travelled to the Hollow World as part of phase II. The other group is involved in Glantrian INTERNAL political strife. For example, IMC the Baron of Tremontaine (west of Fortress Ylourgne) is doing everything in his power to prevent Malachie du Marais from becoming a Prince (it's getting pretty ugly, but with Sephora on your side, bring on the lycanthropes!). Another Baron has become a Viscount and is fast approaching the deepest secrets of the radiance. A third noble is an elf and as such has ties to Alfheim. A fourth has had his barony ruined by the FFF. A fifth has developed an arch-nemesis in the person of Nathaire the Necromancer (was that a booming thud I heard? there it goes again ...). These last three were the ambassadors sent to Alphatia. I guess what I'm trying to say is that WotI was worked fantastically well as a backdrop to my Glantri campaign. I don't think you could make full use of it unless your PCs were involved with the political scene. Jim Sahlas ------------------------------ From: Shane Blake Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:14:31 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantri Mages On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Missinato Andrea wrote: > In the Glantrian council there're many powerful mages (all members). > Now, I think, how's possible to make any political intrigues with so > many people with Detect magic, charm person, clairvoyance, mass charm, > and wish (!)? > > -- > Andrea Missinato > > andmissinato@email.telpress.it > There is a limit to the spell casting that can occur in the Council chambers..i think. Someone correct me if im wrong, im doing this from memory, but wasn't the use of magic restricted by the Council of Prnces, that is why they have Duels isn't it...so that spells LIKE charm person, detect magic and the like, cannot be used, and it would take to much of the fun out of the competition anyway :) Forlak Thorain, magician of Glantri ------------------------------ From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:22:25 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) > > I was completely unable to give challenges to my three 36.th Level Fighter, > > two 36.th Level Mages and the 36.th Level Cleric ... > > This team was *increadible* ;-| > > How about: > > - 6 36th level Fighters, 4 36th level Mages and 2 36th level Clerics > with all the goods and sweets, played with intelligence You realy had 12 players? How was it possible to realy play with such a great group? Roleplaying tends stop im my group, when more than about 6 players attend! Btw. the above PC were the the *only* in about 1000ml radius on Mystara. We played in Norwold, and the next 36th level Mage was in Alphatia, while the next 36th level fighter was Emperor Thincol from Thyatis - i *had* no other 36th level Cleric in the known parts of Mystara ... His abilties to throw off 9 wishes every day (and D&D has nothing like an Aging-Effect when using the spell!) was way to hard to give to another N/PC. I considered the player to be the highest Cleric on the whole world ... So my question: Has this group of yours realy been played up from 1st level? I have my doubts! > - 10 Antimagical Giants What's that? Giants with Antimagic Shell? > - Fiends and Titans From where did you get those Fiends from? They would most probably never attack Orcus - if they came from Demogorgon, i would say, both Demon-Rulers would not attack each other with this means (Group of Mortals ...) > - Alphaks and Orcus on picnik :) I would say, Orcus is impossible to defeat! Ah, i see you have Fiends above - this means, you talk about WotI, yes? Immortals from WotI are not as mighty as the one from the Golden Set - that may explain it ... (meaning "Lesser Fiends" instead of real Demons). Ups, i had a short look in both sets, but could not find a statement about Power-Points ... Does WotI not offer this? If no, your opinion is clear - try to get a Golden Set! ;-) Just read about "Call other", a thing that a Demon can do every round, and summons anothee demon - which in turn can Call Others as well! This costs 10 PP, and Orcus has 9500 PP ;-) I would let him call a Roaring Demon every other turn ... (Demon, not Fiend!) He has 620 HP and suffers only minimum damage from damaging attacks. His attributes are all 90! (I hate this books without an index) Even if attack severly, both would have no problem to retreat and destroy those group one after one ... Bye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@IO.COM Date: Mon Mar 18 02:39:30 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sun, 17 Mar 96 21:39 EST Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA03499 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:01:08 -0600 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA03386 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:50:07 -0600 Received: from loopback.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa (root@rhrz-ts3-p9.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.224.139]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18051 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:47:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from tgm@localhost) by localhost (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA02987; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:23:47 -0700 From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Message-Id: <199603180623.XAA02987@localhost> Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) To: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:22:25 -0700 (MST) Cc: tgm@loopback.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa (Thomas Ackermann) In-Reply-To: <199603150553.HAA11919@proffa.cc.tut.fi> from "Anias Pasi" at Mar 15, 96 07:53:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 3025 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com > > I was completely unable to give challenges to my three 36.th Level Fighter, > > two 36.th Level Mages and the 36.th Level Cleric ... > > This team was *increadible* ;-| > > How about: > > - 6 36th level Fighters, 4 36th level Mages and 2 36th level Clerics > with all the goods and sweets, played with intelligence You realy had 12 players? How was it possible to realy play with such a great group? Roleplaying tends stop im my group, when more than about 6 players attend! Btw. the above PC were the the *only* in about 1000ml radius on Mystara. We played in Norwold, and the next 36th level Mage was in Alphatia, while the next 36th level fighter was Emperor Thincol from Thyatis - i *had* no other 36th level Cleric in the known parts of Mystara ... His abilties to throw off 9 wishes every day (and D&D has nothing like an Aging-Effect when using the spell!) was way to hard to give to another N/PC. I considered the player to be the highest Cleric on the whole world ... So my question: Has this group of yours realy been played up from 1st level? I have my doubts! > - 10 Antimagical Giants What's that? Giants with Antimagic Shell? > - Fiends and Titans From where did you get those Fiends from? They would most probably never attack Orcus - if they came from Demogorgon, i would say, both Demon-Rulers would not attack each other with this means (Group of Mortals ...) > - Alphaks and Orcus on picnik :) I would say, Orcus is impossible to defeat! Ah, i see you have Fiends above - this means, you talk about WotI, yes? Immortals from WotI are not as mighty as the one from the Golden Set - that may explain it ... (meaning "Lesser Fiends" instead of real Demons). Ups, i had a short look in both sets, but could not find a statement about Power-Points ... Does WotI not offer this? If no, your opinion is clear - try to get a Golden Set! ;-) Just read about "Call other", a thing that a Demon can do every round, and summons anothee demon - which in turn can Call Others as well! This costs 10 PP, and Orcus has 9500 PP ;-) I would let him call a Roaring Demon every other turn ... (Demon, not Fiend!) He has 620 HP and suffers only minimum damage from damaging attacks. His attributes are all 90! (I hate this books without an index) Even if attack severly, both would have no problem to retreat and destroy those group one after one ... Bye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #86 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #87 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, 18 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 087 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anias Pasi Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:40:18 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D & D&D (was Synn) Seems I was a bit unclear with my post the other day... sorry. > > > I was completely unable to give challenges to my three 36.th Level Fighter, > > > two 36.th Level Mages and the 36.th Level Cleric ... > > > This team was *increadible* ;-| > > - 6 36th level Fighters, 4 36th level Mages and 2 36th level Clerics > > with all the goods and sweets, played with intelligence > You realy had 12 players? No. :) Read again. You said you couldnt give challenges for your players, i was just making suggestions for good challenges... > How was it possible to realy play with such a great group? It wasnt. As I only have 5 players. > Roleplaying tends stop im my group, when more than about 6 players attend! > Btw. the above PC were the the *only* in about 1000ml radius on Mystara. > We played in Norwold, and the next 36th level Mage was in Alphatia, while the > next 36th level fighter was Emperor Thincol from Thyatis - i *had* no other > 36th level Cleric in the known parts of Mystara ... His abilties to throw > off 9 wishes every day (and D&D has nothing like an Aging-Effect when using > the spell!) was way to hard to give to another N/PC. I considered the > player to be the highest Cleric on the whole world ... Sounds nice... > So my question: > Has this group of yours realy been played up from 1st level? > I have my doubts! As I said, you misunderstood me. Though I did play four players from level 2 to immortal level 3 (Took us about two years, game per week, 8 hours at a time) > > - 10 Antimagical Giants > What's that? Giants with Antimagic Shell? Yes. My two ap.18th level mages really took it from two antimagic ogres The giants should be a challenge, though not too great... > > - Fiends and Titans > >From where did you get those Fiends from? WotI. My bunch once almost killed one :) > > - Alphaks and Orcus on picnik :) > I would say, Orcus is impossible to defeat! Yes. Isnt he. So hes a great challenge to your superteam isnt he (demonic grin). Well seriously. I never have liked Orcus. but now Alphaks, theres something. My team once got Alphaks angry for them. Couldnt go plane hopping at all for the fear of Alphaks. Though they now have a truce, after a favor from Hel (played the Im1 Immortal fury, got a favor, didnt like the module though (I dont usually use ready modules, but I got that free, so)) snip Yes. WotI has Powerpoints. So I hope I made myself clear. Those were suggestions for challenges... - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:56:03 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantri Mages On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Shane Blake wrote: > > > On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Missinato Andrea wrote: > > > In the Glantrian council there're many powerful mages (all members). > > Now, I think, how's possible to make any political intrigues with so > > many people with Detect magic, charm person, clairvoyance, mass charm, > > and wish (!)? > > > > -- > > Andrea Missinato > > > > andmissinato@email.telpress.it > > > There is a limit to the spell casting that can occur in the Council > chambers..i think. Someone correct me if im wrong, im doing this from > memory, but wasn't the use of magic restricted by the Council of Prnces, > that is why they have Duels isn't it...so that spells LIKE charm person, > detect magic and the like, cannot be used, and it would take to much of > the fun out of the competition anyway :) > > Forlak Thorain, magician of Glantri > > also, these mages have spells to protect themselves and their pawns. So if one person is Charmed, a mage can easily detect it and dispel the charm. Ofcourse, a charmed person isnt automatically detected as such, after all, noone walks around casting detect magic at all people they meet. Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Herve MUSSEAU Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 12:30:41 MET Subject: [Mystara] (intro) SE/SA revisited Hi all, During the last two weeks (year, holidays) I wrote something for the group concerning the SHADOWELVES/SCHATTENALFEN relations revisited. It a post-WOtI work, which fits in the timeline of the PWAs. Feel free to comment it, either publicly through the group or by private email (well, it may take some time before I catch up with my mail, the list has generated almost 250 messages in two weeks). Comments on content, form etc are welcome. A special note to Ann Dupuis: I developped this on an info found in Aaron Allston's PWA, if you had other plans for it please inform me. Also, I hope there is no problem with quoting 2 paragraphs from the PWAs. Oh, and if you had plans for other parts of the world (Synn/Malachie/Jaggar, ..) that you couldn't since the line is now cancelled and if you like the work I did, feel free to drop me a line. The work I mention there should arrive in another mail soon. - -- Herve Musseau musseauh@esiee.fr ------------------------------ From: Herve MUSSEAU Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 12:32:32 MET Subject: [Mystara] (long) SE/SA revisited 1010, Kaldmont 13: The Shadow Elves Meet (PWA) Location: Schattenalfheim. Description: Explorer shadow elves from the City of Stars deep in the world's crust finally make their way to the Hollow World's surface, and encounter the Schattenalfen. The Schattenalfen grab the explorers and hustle them to their capital city of Issarthyl. What This Means: The two branches of the shadow elves race have been separated for quite some time_it will be interesting to see how they interact. What the PCs Can Do (added): If the PCs are Shadow Elves, probably part of the army or trusted adventurers, they can be the party that discovers the way to the Hollow World and make contact with their long- lost brethren. They should be either commissioned by the King or be extremely loyal to their people, since it is important that they report their discovery back to the City of Stars. 1010, Kaldmont 16: Shadow Elves Talk (PWA) Location: Issarthyl, Schattenalfheim. Description: The Queen of the Schattenalfen converses with these other shadow elves and learns much history that her race has forgotten. She agrees to open up diplomatic ties with the other shadow elves. What This Means: The two branches of the shadow elf family do not like or trust one another, but recognize the ties that bind them_and that each can learn from the other. The two races will not become military allies in the foreseeable future, however, as their politics are too different. What the PCs Can Do (added): If the PCs are the explorers who made contact with the Schattenalfen, they should do this diplomatic work. It is likely they don't want to reveal too much about their people; their land and their customs, as well as the way they used to get there, as it could prove dangerous for the Shadow Elves. Once this is done, they are made forced guests of the palace until a party of diplomats is ready to go to the City of Stars. The PCs are assigned bodyguards (more to watch them than to protect them), but they can try to escape from the palace in order to gather information by scouting the land, but risking to bring an diplomatic incident even before contact has been officially established. 1010, Kaldmont 18: Diplomats Leave Schattenalfheim Location: Issarthyl, Schattenalfheim. Description: The party of diplomats gathered by the Queen of the Schattenalfen, with a squad of soldiers, and the expedition of Shadow Elves that discovered a route from the City of Stars to the Hollow World, leave today the land of the Schattenalfen for that of the Shadow Elves. What This Means: The trip will be long and difficult, especially since the two parties do not trust each other, and have very different customs. The maps of the Shadow Elves are not always right, and they rightfully suspect the diplomats want to steal their knowledge of the underground route between the two worlds. What the PCs Can Do: If the PCs are the party of Shadow Elves, they should find their way back to the City of Stars themselves, and discover the intent of the diplomats regarding their maps. They should realize it would be best for the Shadow Elves that this knowledge stays in the sole hands of their people. If the PCs are Schattenalfen, they could be the diplomats. 1011, Eirmont 7: Schattenalfen Diplomats Reach the City Of Stars Location: City of Stars, Shadow Elves' Territories. Description: The Schattenalfen diplomats and their Shadow Elves guides reach the City of Stars today. They are immediately received by King Telemon. The diplomats extend Queen Catriata's greeting and begin their work of gathering as much information as possible about the Shadow Elves. The party of Shadow Elves explorers who discovered the Schattenalfen are then also received by King Telemon, and they tell him about everything they learned during their trip, notably maps of underground routes and what they learned about the Schattenalfen, including their suspicions about their real intents. King Telemon immediately decides the diplomats are to be watched by spies, and that the route to the Hollow World be further explored and secured. He also decides that, in addition to the official diplomats, he will also send spies to Schattenalfheim, as well as explorers to further explore the Hollow World. He immediately contacts the Serpent's Eyes. What the PCs Can Do: If the PCs are the explorers, they are to explain themselves the situation and their discoveries to the king. If they wish, they can go back to the Hollow World with King Telemon's blessing and support_both political and financial_to further explore it. 1011, Eirmont 8: Shadow Elves Diplomats Leave for the Hollow World Location: City of Stars, Shadow Elves' Territories. Description: Diplomats from the City of Stars leave today for the Schattenalfen territories. The party includes skilled diplomats, a wizard, a shaman of Rafiel, and soldiers and bodyguards. At the same time, spies discreetly follow them, and parties of well-equipped explorers and soldiers begin the work of exploring, mapping and cleaning the route from its dangerous inhabitants, and definitely securing them. What This Means: King Telemon has accepted to open up diplomatic ties with the Schattenalfen. The diplomats are to gather information about this land, the Hollow World in general, and decide if this can be a threat to the Shadow Elves. The wizard has to study magic in the Hollow World_the explorers reported it worked strange there. The shaman is to study the Schattenalfen's beliefs. The spies are to infiltrate the Schattenalfen society, maybe even reaching key positions. What the PCs Can Do: Shadow Elves PCs can be diplomats (including the wizard and the shaman), or spies, or part of the exploring parties, depending on their role among the Shadow Elves, their levels, and what they want to do. 1011; Kaldmont 16: Explorers Reach Worldshield Location: Limit of Worldshield, 300 miles below the Shadow Elves' Territories. Description: Explorers have rapidly reached the route to the Hollow World up to this point, since some of the passages were already known, and the earth-related magic of the Shadow Elves was useable so far. What This Means: Although the upper passages are not yet completely secured or even mapped, it shouldn't be long before it is the case. It will be more difficult, however, for the remaining of the route, which goes through 600 miles of anti-magic Worldshield, then 300 miles in a place which naturally falls under the Schattenalfen's influence_if they bother to claim it. The Shadow Elf commander decides to build a guarnisoned fort here, as a sort of checkpoint, resting point, with the idea in mind to later bring a permanent presence of wizards with instantaneous means of transport and communication with the City of Stars. They also begin study of way to improve travel through the Worldshield. What the PCs Can Do: If the PCs are part of the expeditionary patrols, they could be assigned to do those tasks, or command their troops to do it if they're high in the military hierarchy. 1012, Vatermont 15: Shadow Elves Learn of Oenkmar (PWA3) 1012, Vatermont 28: Schattenalfen Ambassador Leaves City of Stars Location: City of Stars, Shadow Elves' Territories. Description: An ambassador leaves the City of Stars, accompanied by his bodyguards and Shadow Elves guides. What This Means: The ambassadors have studied the Shadow Elves' society for quite some time now, and the news of the discovery of the sacred city of Aengmor and the forthcoming war have convinced them it is time to report to their queen. The other major news they bring back concern the local worship of Rafiel and the recent invasion of Alfheim (now Aengmor). 1012, Klarmont 22: Ambassadors Reach Schattenalfheim Location: Issarthyl, Schattenalfheim. Description: The ambassadors_and spies_from the City of Stars arrive in Issarthyl today. After a brief encounter with the queen, in which they extend King Telemon's greeting and gifts, they begin to work on the tasks King Telemon gave them as a priority. What This Means: There will be a lot of spying in the land of the Schattenalfen. The diplomats will be carefully watched, but some of the spies should be able to adapt to the local culture and not be executed. What the PCs Can Do: If the PCs came as diplomats or spies, they will have plenty of job. If they are Schattenalfen, they could discover the activities of the Shadow Elves, and maybe put an end to it_and even to the diplomatic relations as a whole. 1012, Feldmont 2: An Ambassador Leaves Issarthyl Location: Issarthyl, Schattenalfheim. Description: A Shadow Elf ambassador leaves for the City of Stars with a squad of soldiers. What This Means: It didn't take long for the shaman of Rafiel to discover that the Schattenalfen worship an evil Immortal called Atzanteotl, whose philosophy seems mostly to be war, evil, chaos, and mischief. He decides to send word of his discovery to King Telemon and Radiant Shaman Porphyriel, and a warning about the fact that they might want to invade the Shadow Elves and the world above one day. What the PCs Can Do: If one of the PCs is the shaman, he has to discover all of this himself, and decide if he wants to send word to the king. If they are diplomats or soldiers, they can be the group that travels back home, a small group in fact for such a long trip. 1012, Sviftmont 1: Wanderers Reveal Themselves (PWA3) [Wanderers reveal their presence in Oenkmar to Royal Wizard Kanafasti, they shall help in the study of the archives of the city] 1012, Kaldmont 26: Ambassador Reaches Issarthyl Location: Issarthyl, Schattenalfheim. Description: The ambassador in the City of Stars reports to his queen what he has learned while there. The queen is very interested by the news, and orders further investigation regarding the city of Aengmor. What This Means: The city of Aengmor is as sacred to the Schattenalfen as it is to the Shadow Elves, although it is obvious to Queen Catriata that her people cannot reclaim it for now. Since her patron Atzanteotl has instructed her it is not worth a holy war for the moment_he has other plans in mind for the city_, she doesn't pay too much attention to it either_she has to plan attacks on those hated Azcans first. 1013, Nuwmont 3: Ambassador Reaches Fort Location: Fort Catriata, 300 miles below the Shadow Elves' Territories, and the City of Stars. Description: The ambassador of the Shadow Elves in Schattenalfheim arrives in the newly constructed fort at the limit of the Worldshield. He his immediately teleported to the palace of King Telemon, while his bodyguards rest at the fort. He gives to King Telemon the information the diplomats have gathered in Issarthyl, most notably the fact that they worship an Entropic Immortal. The king immediately orders that all patrols get doubled, all passages searched and secured, and further diplomats from the Schattenalfen be always brought back home by non-direct routes and never pass through Fort Catriata and its teleporting mages. The ambassador then reports to the Radiant Shaman. What This Means: The Shadow Elves begin to realize that the warlike Schattenalfen could prove dangerous to them, and that the two branches have definitely very different cultures and ethics. Unfortunately, their effort in conquering Oenkmar has diverted many troops, so that the exploring and securing of the tunnels leading to the Hollow World have progressed slower than expected. Fortunately, however, Atzanteotl has not yet realized that Rafiel is not a fellow Entropic Immortal, and as such does not direct his followers' efforts toward the Shadow elves_in fact, he even hopes that the Shadow Elves will easily fall again under his influence when they take control of the city of Aengmor, and secretly supports them in the task. What the PCs Can Do: King Telemon needs more troops and adventurers. 1013, Vatermont 14: King Telemon Learns More About Atzanteotl Location: City of Stars, Shadow Elves' Territories. Description: Radiant Shaman Porphyriel and Royal Wizard Kanafasti both come personally to have an important meeting with King Telemon of the Shadow Elves. They bring bad news about the Immortal Atzanteotl. Porphyriel informs the king that Atzanteotl is indeed an Entropic Immortal, and that it is the will of Rafiel that the Shadow Elves be cautious in their dealings with the Schattenalfen. Their ambassadors should always be carefully watched at all times, and their activities at home should be carefully spied upon. Some aspects of the Shadow Elves' society should be kept hidden from them, notably concerning Rafiel: the Schattenalfen and their Immortal shouldn't be informed that he's not Entropic_something they believe right now. Kanafasti then tells that the study of the archives from the city of Aengmor have proven that the shadow elves who later became the Schattenalfen begun to worship Atzanteotl while living in that city, and that the humanoids that have occupied it since also worshipped him_which is rather bad news for the Shadow Elves and Rafiel. King Telemon is assured that his earlier decisions regarding the Schattenalfen were good, and should be kept effective. He again doubles the patrols on the routes to the Hollow World, recalling more troops from now- conquered Aengmor. What This Means: Rafiel fears the Schattenalfen and their patron Immortal Atzanteotl learn too much about him. Up to now, Atzanteotl has mistaken Rafiel for a fellow Entropic Immortal, given the apparently cruelty of some of his verses, as well as the attitude of his Shadow Elves regarding the surface countries of the Known World and most notably the invasion of Alfheim. Rafiel also fears that the diplomats in the City of Stars could learn of his secret project_though Porphyriel doesn't reveal this to Telemon_, which is as yet unknown to mortals and Immortals alike, except the highest-level shamans who work on it. It would be a terrible blow to Rafiel should Atzanteotl_or everyone else_ever learn of it. In addition, with the recent discovery of Kanafasti concerning the cult of his enemy in the sacred city of Aengmor, he now also fears Atzanteotl could use it as a starting point to converting Shadow Elves to his following_which is exactly what he intends to do. Fortunately, Atzanteotl is not concious of Rafiel's knowledge. Telemon is reassured he has taken the best decisions so far, and that he should continue to watch carefully over the Schattenalfen and keep the underground roads and their shortcuts secret. With all the measures of securing taken by King Telemon over the years, the City of Stars is now surrounded in nearly all directions by strong buffer states or military positions: Aengmor aboveground, the city of Aengmor in the Broken Lands, military patrols and keeps to the east toward Rockhome (with increased strength since the war for control of Oenkmar), and now expansion belowground with a strong campaign of surveying and fortification farther belowground, including the strong fort of Catriata at the edge of the Worldshield. This makes the Shadow Elves one of the most extensive empire in the world, although some of the territories it claims are not under their total control_there are still numerous underground races or monsters present next to their holdings. It is important also to note that most other nations are unaware of how powerful the Shadow Elves are, and that they could become even more powerful when Rafiel's project is over. - -- Herve Musseau musseauh@esiee.fr ------------------------------ From: "Oeystein H. Lund." Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:52:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mystara] [MYSTARA] Norwold and Alphatia, Religion and Politics >RE: Church of Traladara in Norwold from Oeystein H. Lund >[description of the actions of Boryis Sergeinov snipped] >> Will the traldar church be interested? I think so. What will they do >> though ? There's a distinct possibility that Surdeig will do nothing, or >> perhaps even go along with the plan - it's designed to make their >> rulership of the lands they hold in fealty more effective, after all. >> What will the Immortals think ? I don't think any of them will be >> particularily pleased, but would they be angry ? > As the Archbishop of the Church of Traladara in the area, Surdeig is the >reigning authority for the Church. If he were to go along with Boryis, then >almost any priest in the area would surely follow his example. However, >Patriarch Nikelnevich in Specularum is not likely to be pleased. > Given the current (since AC970) state of political affairs in Karameikos, >he would probably want to keep the Church "untainted" by other immortals >in order to retain his position as the overall head of the Church. This >could very well cause a split within the Church, possibly leading to a >small war. Certain members of the Church of Karameikos would probably try >to fan the flames of such a war in order to further weaken the Church of >Traladara. I don't think the Immortals will be too angry because it will >enhance their status in Norwold, thus increasing their base of >followers. All in all, I think this is a very interesting plot line. > What is the current year in your campaign? I'd be interested in hearing >about further developments. They'd make great "news items" in my campaign. Currently, the date stands at spring 1005, starting date was spring 994. Actually, you do raise some interesting points about events back in Karameikos that I believe I'll use - if not an actual war, then at least a church conclave that might end with declaring the entire Northern branch as heretics. Depending on how well the PC's could talk their way out of the charges of course :) If they are unsuccessful, Boryis will have succeeded in making SERIOUS trouble for himself, by the way. If the priests loyal to the Archbishop go along with him after the north branch gets branded heretical, while the priests Boryis personally recruited for his dominion stay loyal to the Mother Church.... Oooh, the possibilities, the possibilties ! I can see it now - the peasants from Boryis's barony invade the barony of his friend and neighbor in an effort to eradicate the heretics :) The other, direct danger, is to incense the Patriarch to the point where he gets a heart attack and dies from rage... Finally, it would seriously compromise the Patriarch's political position IMC, since the General Boryis Sergeinov, Bane of the Master, is one of those he'll have to brand heretical. That's not something that will endear him to the people, who have lately come to regard Boryis as a signal to them that Traldara will rise again - Boryis was the second-oldest of 14 children, living in bone-grinding poverty on the outskirts of Threshold. Now, he's the King's General in Norwold, depending on who you ask the most powerful or second-most powerful noble of the realm. The traldar hope he's an omen for their future - branding him heretic will lose the Patriarch much. BUT- I am not so sure that Nikelevitch knows the depth of feeling involved... I probably won't make this a major issue until spring of 1006 though, simply because news travel slowly between the countries. Nikelevich probably won't hear about it until this fall, quite possibly even later. Any messengers would also spend some time getting back, so the conflict won't be joined until 1006 when both sides are aware of there BEING one ;) On the other hand, the Patriarch would quite possibly spend that winter preaching against the dangerous heretical notions of certain peasant-born mercenaries risen too far above their station. This might backfire, though. Whatever happened to the pope who was in charge when the protestants broke with the catholic church ? >RE: Another Rain of Fire? from Cthuludrew >> It comes around >> to the whole Blackmoor thing again- will the introduction of science into >> the world result in yet another Rain of Fire, or will the inhabitants of >> Mystara learn from their mistakes? > >Hmmm. Interesting question. I would like to think that the immortals >would stop things before they progressed too far. After Mark of Amber, >it looks like the Old Ones are looking over their shoulders. They don't >want to see another WotI fiasco. Depends on their outlook, I'd guess - but given how careful Rafiel is about *not* revealing what the Chamber of Stars really is, I'd bet there's a couple of Immortals who're adamantly opposed at least. Ka the Preserver comes to mind as someone who'd be inclined to act against any rediscovery of technology. But I'm not so sure about the Old Ones. What did they have in mind when they started the whole MagiTech deal with the Nucleus of the Spheres ? If they didn't think it was a good idea, why start the whole thing over ? IMC the Rain of Fire wasn't due to the instability of technology so much as Thanatos taking on the mortal identity of a nuclear engineer and delivering reactor plans with inadequate or factory-sabotaged security measures... and then get himself a job in Maintenance on the largest reactor buildt... Again, IMC the Old Ones presumably know this even if the Immortals don't - and that makes the Nucleus their way of saying "Allright, get a move on- but this time, remember the failsafes have to actually work !" >RE: Alphatian Council from Oeystein H. Lund >> Given the overwhelming power of a 36th-level mage and the underwhelming >> efficiency of the Empire of Alphatia from CM1 onwards, I've always played >> them as deeply divided, and effectively deadlocked. >[snip] >> Currently, IMC, there's three main factions working in public, and at >> least half a dozen shady, semi-secret or conspiratorical groups fighting >> it out behind the scenes. Prominents include Empress Loyalists, Alphatia >> Millitants, and Uninterested Neutrals (leave everything alone if it >> doesn't threaten to interfere with our magic), conspiratorical include >> Alphaks Traitors (ANYTHING for power), Crown Prince loyalists (A *woman* >> on the throne ? bugger that !), and Legal Beagles ( One nation, one Law. >> Down with special privilegies and double standards of justice !) > Oooooohhhhhhh. I like this. I've always wondered why so many wizards > couldn't just crush their adversaries. Thanks for the ideas. This is > now a permanent fixture in my campaign. What else can you tell us about > Alphatian politics? Well, the main focus for the campaign is on the Empress Loyalists and Crown Prince Loyalists, since they're the ones who are interested in Norwold - only, the CPL's are a secret/consiratorical group, and so currently the EL's are unaware of the problems in Norworld originating in the Grand Council itself. (If you own CM2 you'll note that one of the evil foes in the module is 'an emissary of the Grand Council'. This man represents the CPL's, I've decided.) The Alphatia Militants are greatly reduced both in numbers and influence after backing up the last Emperor and coming along with him on the Alphatian Spike into Thyatis, but they take a vague interest in Norwold. They just don't bother helping much since Ericall's "only" a fighter. Their main focus is military strength, and they're very much in favour of any expansionist move - but for now they're more concerned about the Jennite situation in Esterhold. Lately the incursions from the free tribes have increased in strength and frequency, and some of the Militants think they should make a last push into the hills and eradicate the treath. A few even suspect that one of the Eastern empires have started suppying the Jennites with weaponry and started teacing some of their numbers clerical magic in order to destabilize Easterhold without becoming involved themselves.. What the CPL's don't realize is that the Crown prince himself, Zandor, is a delusional madman who sincerely hates his half-brother. They've decided they'd rather have a man on the throne, and are working on the Prince's behalf in the Council, even though the Prince isn't a member. This has let the prince maneuver politically to hamper Ericall's efforts in Norwold, and to slow down and delay any assistance that is actually sent. As I've noted elsewhere, Zandor will rather see the Empire go up in flames than let Ericall succeed in Norwold. So, sooner or later the nobles of Ericall's court will have to start looking over their shoulders - particularily the ones who are the most effective in foiling the plots launched against Ericall and Norwold. Around 1008-9 I think the CPL's and Alphaks Traitors will discover that they have something in common when the players incur Alphaks'es wrath in M1 - one more faction to consider. They'll still be a minority, but about then they'll have enough votes to slow down any legislation about Norwold. I haven't bothered detailing all of the Grand council, just the major factions that have an impact in the Norwold area, but I've thought a bit about what other factions could be present Other 'official' factions in the council that aren't directly interested in Norwold include : - The elementalist remnants from the homeworld, a dwindling faction of disproportionately powerful conservatives who've been on the Council since Landfall. These people give dangerous a new definition ;) In game terms they're probably about equal to the various kinds of elementalist from Glantri, with one exeption - Fire Elementalists aren't present. Also, there's probably more than one with 5th Circle powers in each element. - Merchanter's Faction, the council members who've gotten rich off trade and see no reason to go to war because that'll reduce their cash flow. -The Progressives, the people most involved with the budding MagiTech science, though I don't know if I want them to have a functioning technology just yet. 'Unofficials' could include : - The Jennites - *someone* amonge the jennites have to be able to gain magic ? - Spherewalkers : a faction in favour of more exploring of the Outer Planes. Most council members, especially the Elementalists, are opposed to this, as they see no need to go looking for trouble Out There and thus has placed an interdiction on expeditions. The spherewalkers are out there anyway. - Isolationists: secretly working to cut off Alphatia from the world so they won't have to bother with all these barbarians. - Legal Beagles: a handful of Greenspur and Stonewall wizards who've found each other in a common purpose - they want everyone to be subject to the same laws, but for different purposes. The Stonewallers want an end to the discrimination, the Greenspurrers want to be able to demand as much adherence to the laws from wizards as from commoners. This is not a popular idea, so for the time being they have to keep secret fo fear of being duelled to death by the Elementalists ;) I've purposefully left a lot of this vague, to avoid trapping myself into creating useless or uninteresting factions. I think that a lot of this needs to be tailored to the individual campaigns, as the Grand Council should react to world events - and these tend to differ in each campaign. (I've no intention of running WotI for example. The Council must needs be different in the HW afterwards, but I'm not going to work that out !) One thing I must take issue with about the Alphatian boxed set, though : They say that Ericall just isn't a very good king. I beg to differ. He MUST be a lot more competent than the boxed set makes him out to be. Why ? He managed to convince Eriadna, and the Grand Council, to let him try colonizing Norwold. Not only that, but they gave him an army, financed his castle to the tune of TEN MILLION gold pieces, sent advisors, gave him magical items, and so on. All in all, they must have funded him with upwards of FIFTEEN million in cash and services. I don't care who you are the son or daughter of - your parent isn't going to give you that much in terms of resources if they don't think you can make something of it. And he managed to convince the Grand Council that he was the right man for the job - the Empress can't just hand out that much cash from the Imperial Treasury without the approval of the council. Oh sure, it's theoretically possible. But it's politically impossible. Especially since Ericall is "only" a fighter. He must have been very convincing, and with a good track record, to be able to gain that kind of funding. Then again, considering that his father is the General Torenal, I'm sure he's picked up a trick or five from his father. He's following his footsteps, after all. But no matter who his father or mother is, he's GOT to convince someone on the Grand Council that backing him is a worthwhile endeavour. Now all we have to do is figure out shy they thought backing Ericall was a good idea - were they sucking up to Eriadna, giving him enough rope to hang himself with, backing him so that Zandor'd have a clear field in Alphatia, or something entirely different ? Ericall's misfortune includes having a nutcase like Zandor for a brother, who's willing to send people to Norwold to mess up his brother's realm. (Again, see CM2. The evil wizard is alost certainly Zandor's man) Even worse, Zandor's willing to cut a deal with the Alphaks Traitors to make bad things happen to Ericall. (The evil cleric in CM2 is almost certainly a priest of Alphaks, given that he opens a Gate to Alphaks'es home plane...). And another bad thing happened, although it seemed like a good idea at the time - he accepted the oath of fealty from both Boryis and Ehran :) The only thing keeping those two from starting a civil war is the knowledge that external enemies would capitalize on this and pounce. And Boryis & company are those most dangerous of creatures to be around : Heroes. Real heroes attract bad things - they've had careers that'll come back to haunt them, enemies spoiling for revenge. Arik of the 98 eyes, Ludwig Von Hendricks - The Black Eagle, the ghost of Bargle the Infamous, Skarda the Mad, Tengwar - the Lich of Blackmoor (He used to be a regular wizard in Blacmoor until he had a run-in with the PC's), and so on - the list goes on for a long while ;) All this creates trouble Ericall had no way of foreseeing - it's not his fault ! And yet Allston has the temerity to suggest that Ericall isn't a very good king ? Feh, I say. Feh. On a last note - loved your ideas for Arik. I'm going to incorporate them into the writeup and post it to the list. I suppose this will be the beta- release as we'll need one more round of comments before saying this is the final version ? ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #87 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #88 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, 18 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 088 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Oeystein H. Lund." Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:02:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Missing Persons (or, where'd that NPC go?) On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Jason MURPHY wrote: [SNIP] > Excuse my ignorance but i was under the impression that Karameikos was > totally autonomous, and had no real link to Thyatis except for a loose > alliance. The Karameikos Gaz read as Karameikos being a sovereign(Sp?) > nation. > Is this a difference between the OD&D and AD&D versions? > > Jason Nah, it's a blatant case of the TSR staff not reading their own products closely before setting out to make something based on it. They seem to have overlooked the history section of the Karameikos gazetteer where it says that Stephan could have called it a kingdom from the word go, but chose to name it a grand duchy to give the impression that Thyatis would actually care a fig-leaf's worth about the country. Then along comes WotI, in which the designers have the not-unreasonable idea that Stephan wants to be king in name as well as fact - and commit the unfortunate error of saying that the _Grand Duchy is a duchy in fact, and not just in name. Worse, they have the Thyatian Emperor act on the assumption that Karameikos is beholden to Thyatis in any way. Just ignore it. Thincol wouldn't be so stupid as to make that particular strategic error... ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 15:13:35 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantri Mages At 23.22 18/03/96 +0100, Andrea Missinato wrote: >In the Glantrian council there're many powerful mages (all members). >Now, I think, how's possible to make any political intrigues with so >many people with Detect magic, charm person, clairvoyance, mass charm, >and wish (!)? > Wish ? If I'm correct RC states that only a 36th level mage with 18+ Wisdom can cast a wish spell, and I only know 1 36 MU in Glantri: Etienne "Rad" D'Ambreville. Charm ? An high level MU (like the member of the council) has a saving throw vs. spell of about 2-3 and an high Int, so I don't think a Charme spell is of much use. Last but not least: if they're powerful mages, they can create many defensive magical items, like a ring of spell turning, for example. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:08:52 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas > I have another quick question/request. I'm just starting to run WotI > with my gaming group. Can anyone offer any suggestions/information on the > following: > > 1) improving the story line Lots of ideas... 1. Rewrite the 1000AC story and read it aloud to the players (or better yet, have them take roles and read it out like a script). Make Ixion and the other Hierarchs more shocked and disturbed at the rebellion. 2. Move the Gods around a bit. Rafiel doesn't speak out, but is forced to help Rad (maybe because Rad has found out what he is doing and is willing to drag the Shadow Elves with him if Ixion wins). Get more of them involved directly. -- the key here is to make it feel like a War, not just a dispute, the War provides the Gods with their greatest opportunity to use every little bit of information they have against each other. 3. Kill Benekander off - he is a useless subplot. Use him in the first story (the mirror) then have him return (briefly) during the second adventure. He should die in the third, or maybe sometime before. Alternative: Have a Matter-Nature immortal or a peaceful immortal (Ordana, Terra, Djaea, Alphatia) tell the party about the evil in the world, in the hope that they will stop it. 4. Throw in all the evil subplots of from the Gazeteers... Karameikan civil war (traldar vs. thyatian), Fire Isle magi, dark Glantri secrets, moulder dwarves, Desert Garden fanatics, Hattian knights, Order of Thorns, The Secret of Blackflame, and the Shadow Elf civil war. The world is going to end (or so everyone thinks), so burn these ideas out. > 4) how WotI went for other DM's when they ran it Keep in mind that PCs shouldn't be able to teleport aimlessly. This is the biggest flaw in the campaign as written - the writers do not appreciate the time needed to travel from point A to point B during stories. ie. Norwold to Aegos = 6 months minimum by sea. Unless you are using a very magic-heavy (flying carpet services, skyships for everyone) Mystara, time and travel (and the expenses associated) will be a key factor. It is only a modern concept that wars take so little time to fight - remember the Hundred Years War between France and Britain? > 5) anything else you care to impart WotI is okay... I first heard that it supposed to be drawn out over three decades (a much more reasonable timescale). I think it would have been better (and higher quality) if this was the case. > Thanks for your assistance, No problem. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:52:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas >1) improving the story line There is one? (a Mortal one I mean, not the immortal one) The mortla story line goes something like. a) In the first adventure the pc's go to this tower and find an NPC Lightning Zombie boy, Crackle. b) In the third adventure the pc's encounter the boys mother, now a vampire. c) The meteor that Alphaks smashes into Glantri happens to hit exactly where the tower used to be standing. No one bothers to explain that little conicidence, but then does Alphaks need a good reason? Essentially, I found it better to use my existing mid-high level party and try not to bring a low level party from 1st to 25th+ needed to survive the final encounters in the span of 10 game years. I had Benedeker(sic?) send them on all sorts of missions to investigate what's going on. >2) news items/events taking place during the time period >3) adventure ideas which relate to the plot as a whole for when the PC's > are between the various adventure phases (other than those already > presented in WotI) They investigated a little pet-project cult Terra was working on to try to stop the war through civil disobeience. (They staged sit-ins in Thyatis). The cult never got anywhere but it was cute trying to watch some of my more hack and slash players inflitrate them. They did defend the cult in the end from some less-then-enthused Thyatian military. They battled Hel's minions a few times, she had numerous false cults like the one she suckered Zelten into believing in. They started to get so paranoid of new Immortals that when I tried to introduce a real new Immortal they almost slaughteed his only cleric on sight. (Fortunately calmer heads prevailed.) He sent them into the Hollow World (the second adventure). Zelten, the NPC used in that adventure and the third has become my party's closest and most trustworthy friend. He did die in the encounter with the Red Dracolich but one of the party used their wish at the end to bring him back. Being Glantri nobles and friends, they spent a year in Alphatia running hit and run missions. Infiltrating noble houses (the thief had a field day) and taking everything in sight was a common pasttime. They also started an underground railroad for families and friends of Glantri Nobles getting people out of Alphatia who wanted out. >4) how WotI went for other DM's when they ran it Pretty well, it's probably more of a supplement to an existing campaign then one unto itself, but give it a shot. :-) >5) anything else you care to impart Ya, good luck. - -Bob - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:33:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantri Mages >In the Glantrian council there're many powerful mages (all members). >Now, I think, how's possible to make any political intrigues with so >many people with Detect magic, charm person, clairvoyance, mass charm, >and wish (!)? Good question, and one that should be looked into long before playing a campaign in Glantri. :-) IMC I have a class in the School of Magic called "Cloaks of Protection and Daggers of Venom" (cloak and dagger... of course you get it.) all about political survival and intrigue in Glantri. I'll use stuff from that class to answer you questsion. Most of the spells /items/powers are from AD&D (cause basic D&D just doesn't have enough intelligent spells) but you should be able to adapt any of them to any campaign. Some things to keep in mind. 1) "Why hand't I thought of that." - Real Estate is all about "Location, location, location" sucessful Arch-Magedom requires "Protection, protection, protection." Many generations of mages have lived in Glantri, surrounded by their fellow mages (with similar powers) so why wouldn't a whole bunch of them have found a way to defend themselves by now? Actually, they have. Clairavoyance, crystal balls - A medalion of proof against detection and location cloaks the mage from just about all seeking magics. This is a very common item for mid-high level mages to create in my campaign. Variations of the idea have included "Slippers of non-detection", "Turban of the unseen", and a "Dagger of the Shadow" which a mage who was really into shadows created to protect himself from prying magics. There's a spell in the Glantri boxed set called "Walls with no doors" which permantly prevents any teleportation or summoning spells from working in it's area of effect. (5th or 6th level I think.) I've created a companion spell called "Walls with no ears" that prevents all scrying magic from working in the area also. Charm, Mass Charm - Paranoia is your friend. (Not the computer) There are a good deal of mages who shut themselves up in their towers so tight that not even sunlight can get in. By cutting down on the number of people you deal with, you safe yourself a lot of hassle. Why can't your lieutnents be charmed then? Well choose minions who can't be charmed. Elves make great bodyguards for the charm-wary, summoned creatures, elementals, golems all make for excellent charm-proof friends. I believe in the Gaz there's a service nobles can take advantage of where a proxy is sent to council in place of the noble. They are all magically conditioned to implode or something if they are tampered with or forced to betray their master. (Of course the head of the organization is a criminal but that's neither here nor there.) There also a spell in the Glantri Boxed Set, whose name I forget at the moment, that makes the recipient (and the caster can use it on others) immune to the first charm attempt used against him, and forces him to perform one action when it's attempted (Like kill the mage trying to charm you, or run like hell.) Wish - Well let's just say if you have someone capable of casting a wish on your bad side, just put the wand of fireballs in your mouth and end the pain now. Just make wish very rare, and use penalties on it. There's a 5 year age penalty for casting it so most human mages are loath to try it, and casting it makes the mage unable to perform any action for days afterwards. This makes an Arch-Mage so vulnerable that it's not a common occurance. 2) "Make him an offer he can't refuse". - How can one mage survive with so many mages out there that can tear him apart with a single spell? Well, I just watched the Godfather again last night (great flick) and could ask you, How could one man in his 60's-70's run a huge crime family with so many people out there with guns, knifes and garrots all wanting desperately to kill him? (And it's much easier for some shmuck to pull a trigger then it is to go learn how to cast death spell). Mages are not stupid monsters, who just attacks and fights to the death. When mages can work together for mutual benifit they have been known to do so. Mages tend to pile protective spells onto their homes, treat even their friends with caution, and watch their enemies like a hawk. Keep only beings around you that you can definately control (via charm, geas, payment, family ties, etc.) and don't tell anyone anything they can use against you. In fact, the best mages don't tell anyone anything. Most importantly here, if you have to be in the public eye make an aura of power for yourself, even if it's a bluff. There's no real appearance difference between a 3rd level mage and an arch-mage, if your enemies have no idea how powerful really are would they try something so stupid as trying to charm you? What if you have some contignecy spell to fireball the first person to try to charm you? What if you have elvish blood and are natrually resistant to it? What if you make your save and then use your power word kill on your advesary? If they don't know what your capable of, they'll have no idea what will/won't work on you and will be very reluctant to experiment as they go. 3) "It's the plumber, I've come to fix the sink." - How do mages protect themselves from those people who they do have to deal with? Know Alignement is a great way of finding the assassin in the cooking staff. ESP (now in new easy-to-use medallion form) is the best truth detector a mage can use. True seeing can show you the man your talking to is really a doppleganger. Detect magic can reveal enchantment/charm spells. Detect charm can reveal charm's ideally. Wizard Sight (TOM) can point out people capable of casting mage and priest spells ("So you're really just an normal man looking for an apprenticeship huh?") Most importantly, never assume anything you see is what it seems, in Glantri it could be just about anything. "Here endith the lesson." - -Bob - ---------------------------------------------------------- Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence, Inc. E-mail: Kaelin@natural.com 725 Concord Ave. Phone: (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge, Ma. 02138 USA - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:15:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Missing Persons (or, where'd that NPC go?) At 08:02 AM 3/18/96 -0600, Oeystein H. Lund wrote: > Nah, it's a blatant case of the TSR staff not reading their own >products closely before setting out to make something based on it. They >seem to have overlooked the history section of the Karameikos gazetteer >where it says that Stephan could have called it a kingdom from the word >go, but chose to name it a grand duchy to give the impression that >Thyatis would actually care a fig-leaf's worth about the country. > Then along comes WotI, in which the designers have the not-unreasonable >idea that Stephan wants to be king in name as well as fact - and commit >the unfortunate error of saying that the _Grand Duchy is a duchy in fact, >and not just in name. Worse, they have the Thyatian Emperor act on the >assumption that Karameikos is beholden to Thyatis in any way. Just ignore >it. Thincol wouldn't be so stupid as to make that particular strategic >error... I didn't think this was so inconsistent. I don't remember WotI saying that Karameikos was a Duchy in fact. And I don't think the issue with Thincol was his thinking that he had any control over Karameikos, but rather with his assuming that Karameikos would side with him in the war, which I don't think was unreasonable on his part. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:29:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas At 10:08 AM 3/18/96 AST, Nightshade wrote, regarding improvements to WotI: >1. Rewrite the 1000AC story and read it aloud to the players (or > better yet, have them take roles and read it out like a script). > Make Ixion and the other Hierarchs more shocked and disturbed at > the rebellion. I wouldn't recommend this unless you want your players to know why everything is happening. I personally think that would ruin things, since part of the appeal is, I think, everyone's wondering why the hell the world is going mad. >2. Move the Gods around a bit. Rafiel doesn't speak out, but is > forced to help Rad (maybe because Rad has found out what he is > doing and is willing to drag the Shadow Elves with him if Ixion > wins). Get more of them involved directly. -- the key here is > to make it feel like a War, not just a dispute, the War provides > the Gods with their greatest opportunity to use every little bit > of information they have against each other. Good idea. >3. Kill Benekander off - he is a useless subplot. Use him in the > first story (the mirror) then have him return (briefly) during > the second adventure. He should die in the third, or maybe > sometime before. Alternative: Have a Matter-Nature immortal or > a peaceful immortal (Ordana, Terra, Djaea, Alphatia) tell the > party about the evil in the world, in the hope that they will > stop it. I actually think he's potentially very useful and interesting. See my earlier post about using him instead of Asterius in the Hollow World trilogy. Also, if your PCs go back in time to Blackmoor, as mine did, it makes them a lot more interested in the aliens from DA2 and DA3. >4. Throw in all the evil subplots of from the Gazeteers... > Karameikan civil war (traldar vs. thyatian), Fire Isle magi, dark > Glantri secrets, moulder dwarves, Desert Garden fanatics, Hattian > knights, Order of Thorns, The Secret of Blackflame, and the > Shadow Elf civil war. The world is going to end (or so everyone > thinks), so burn these ideas out. A definite must. Adds to the chaos tremendously. I had the rebellion in Thyatis over the bread, etc. in WotI coincide with the riots in DDA2 Legions of Thyatis. I also had Jowett die and the Holy War between the rebel faction of the Churh of Karameikos and the Church of Traladara begin, partly by the will of Thyatis Immortals represented in the Church of Karameikos who opposed Karameikos' neutrality because of their agendas in the War. >> 4) how WotI went for other DM's when they ran it > >Keep in mind that PCs shouldn't be able to teleport aimlessly. This >is the biggest flaw in the campaign as written - the writers do not >appreciate the time needed to travel from point A to point B during >stories. ie. Norwold to Aegos = 6 months minimum by sea. Unless you >are using a very magic-heavy (flying carpet services, skyships for >everyone) Mystara, time and travel (and the expenses associated) will >be a key factor. It is only a modern concept that wars take so >little time to fight - remember the Hundred Years War between France >and Britain? True, although the Hundred Years' War didn't last its 120 years simply because wars take a long time. That would be just too excessive. In that case it had more to do with both sides having other things to worry about and so stopping the fighting much of the time not because hostilities ended but because they had other priorities. >> 5) anything else you care to impart > >WotI is okay... I first heard that it supposed to be drawn out over >three decades (a much more reasonable timescale). I think it would >have been better (and higher quality) if this was the case. That's easy as pie to change, if one wants. I also think that if one likes wars that end more quickly, it's easily justified on the grounds that magic accomplishes more or less the same effect as modern technology in speeding things up (e.g. magical transportation, magical firepower). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:09:56 -0500 Subject: [none] Greetings, I've been on the list a while now, but I don't delurk often, so for those who've joined more recently and don't know me, let me just reintroduce myself. I'm David Leland, DMing a WotI Mystara campaign for about 3.5 years (real time) now using OD&D with plenty of splicing in from AD&D. I've read of people wanting ideas for WotI campaigns and so I just wanted to relate how I used the HWA (Hollow World Adventure) modules series (Nightrage, Nightwail, Nightstorm, I think are the names) with WotI. I used the Phase II adventure in WotI to get the PCs into the Hollow World. When the camp/city of Haldemar was attacked and mostly devastated, I had them assigned to go on one of the airships as opposed to tunneling to the outer world. They were attacked by Heldannic Warbirds and the airship destroyed, so that they had to bail, and were left stranded somewhere in the Neathar area (but not Alphatian Neatharium). From there their goal was to find a way back home, so I sort of stringed them along with clues and advice given by various natives and a PC cleric's patron so that they made their way to Colima (from HWA2 I think), visiting places along the way. Notice then that I basically skipped HWA1. I should also note that the PC cleric, actually a Hsaio named Okuwa, was a cleric of what he called the Order of the Owl, whose patron advocated Immortal nonintervention and a Mystara for Mystarans outlook. Unbeknownst to the cleric (and other PCs), the patron was actually Benekander/Rheddrian, and while the party had met Rheddrian and was working for him, none, not even Okuwa, knew that the Order of the Owl was really a cover for Benekander to raise a following while trying to stay unnoticed by other Immortals. Anyway, the players picked up the HWA series starting with the encounter with Dale(?), the shepherd with feathered serpent 'sheepdogs' in HWA2, and followed from there. Note though that I had nothing at first about clerical magic failing because of Thanatos' plan (which I changed significantly--see below). I also ditched the whole blood brothers, possessed goblins stuff and just let Irila Kaze be the villain throughout. I made sure Kaze escaped at the end of HWA2, and while the party was relaxing and recouping on the floating island of the Queen Mother of the feathered serpents, I had the PC Hsaio (cleric) get extremely ill, and had the Queen Mother deliver a message she was picking up because of her superior mystical sensitivity. She told the PCs that she heard a cry of distress from Okuwa's patron, who was being assaulted by a very powerful being, and that to help they must track down Kaze in Shahjapur(sp?). What actually happened, again unknown by the PCs, is that instead of this thing about Thanatos fooling all of the Immortals with this scheme with I personally think is too big and silly, I made it simply a matter of Thanatos discovering Benekander's existence because of the party's interference with his protege, Irila Kaze. Rather than expose Rheddrian to all of the Immortals, which would be hurtful to Rheddrian but not particularly interesting for Thanatos, he decided to capture and imprison him, in the manner normally used on Asterius according to the way the HWA series normally works. Thanatos figured that 1) he can expose him later if he wishes, 2) this is good bait for the PCs, who he'd like to have destroyed, 3) it's fun to torture a fledgling Immortal without danger of other Immortals noticing (since they didn't know of Benekander). So, instead of all clerics losing spells, just Okuwa (and the other few followers of Benekander) lost level 3+ spells. The PCs went through HWA3 pretty much as normal, except for the end, where obviously Benekander was in the Vampire Sheath and not Asterius. Also, the whole Emerald River timestream, temporarily becoming Immortals, prancing around the Hollow World through vortices, meeting all the Immortals, kicking Thanatos' butt in the Nightstorm dimension thing was just too psychadelic, whacko, and munchkin for me, aside from irrelevant since I wasn't using the same plan as presented in the HWA series that involves all the Immortals. Instead, the mantra was simply for releasing Benekander (I called it the Mantra of Freedom). There was no miniaturized caravan, of course, since I wasn't using that start for the series, and the end result was the party being shocked and surprised to discover that Rheddrian was an Immortal, Okuwa's Immortal even! Benekander/Rheddrian/ tried to convince the party that he wasn't an Immortal, at least not in the heirarchy/social sense, and that he was opposed to the Immortals' behavior regarding mortals. Fearing that Thanatos would be coming for him (and the party), Benekander teleported the party (except for Okuwa) and unconscious Kaze to Glantri, where they turned her in and received a handsome reward that had been placed on her for various crimes. Okuwa was assigned missionary work, spreading the gospel of the Order of the Owl in the Hollow World (the player was leaving the group so it was convenient that way), where the just-budding following had withered during Benekander's incarceration. And Benekander retreated to his home plane to recover from his rough treatment. Anyway, that's the story. Let me know if you have any questions or comments. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: jam@wimsey.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:29:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sun/moon rise/set times >This is a little dry, but I had nothing better to do for an hour, so.. :) >I'm not entirely sure about some of the sun- times near the poles, and >have marked them with ?s. - ---8<--snipped--8<--- Thanks for posting this, although, perhaps someone who has spent time in the north can verify TSR's stats and your calculations. For example, isn't it the case that areas over the arctic circle and below the antaractic circle have periods of 24 hours of sun/darkness? Perhaps this chart needs a bit of work... Okay, digging out ye olde World Book Encyclopedia (1980 ed), the entry on the Arctic Circle says (with bits specific to Earth removed or re-phrased to fit Mystara): Points on the Arctic Circle lie at 66deg 30' north latitude.... The Arctic Circle marks the edge of an area where the sun stays above the horizon one or more days each year. The sun never sets there on the longest day of summer, [Felmont 15]. The sun never rises there on the shortest day of winter, [Newmont 15]. At the [Geographic] North Pole itself, the sun is visible [3 months] before and [3 months] after [Midsummer], if the sky is clear. It stays below the horizon for the same time before and after [Midwinter]. (Note on dates: I picked the Midwinter and Midsummer dates based on the fact that the Thyatian Calendar claims that the first day of summer is Klarmont 1 and the first day of winter is Kaldmont 1.) As you can see, this means that the line you've given for the North Pole might be more acurate for the Arctic Circle. This is, of course, also taking into consideration the fact that the sun doesn't just come up at the same time for three months and then *JUMPS* to coming up at a different time -- instead it sort of slides along from one time to the other. So, if you set the given times as "Sun rise/set at MID-Winter/Spring/Summer/Fall" then it sorta works. Seeing as Mystara must have SOME tilt, or we wouldn't get changing seasons at all, there must be an Arctic Circle. For ease of calculation, lets say Mystara's tilt is a little bit smaller than Earth's and so the Arctic Circle is at an even 70deg North. You know, I think this chart really does need some more work. Let me think about it some and I'll get back to the list... > MOON APPEARANCES OVER 90 degrees N > > ------------------- 1 Season ------------------ >Week----Month #1---------Month #2--------Month #3------ >#1 NM 9:00pm-5:00am 3:00am-10:00pm 3:00pm-6:00pm >#2 FQ 10:00pm-7:00am 6:00am-11:00am 5:00pm-9:00pm >#3 FM 11:00pm-8:00am 9:00am-1:00pm 7:00pm-12:00am >#4 LQ 1:00am-9:00am 12:00pm-3:00pm 8:00pm-3:00am - ---8<--snipped--8<--- Also, I have to say that I can't possibly accept this, even though it is given this way on the TSR Western Trail Map. I mean look at Month 2! The Full Moon appears DURING THE DAY! Seeing as following normal physics, a full moon appears that way because the Sun is, for all intents and purposes, directly opposite it across the body of the planet the moon orbits, it would be impossible to have a full moon AND the sun in the sky at the same time. And I am not willing to accept that the other moon -- Matera(sp?) -- is the cause of this odd behaviour. Unless Mystara is in a binary star system, I can't see where the "full moon" that rises between 9am and 1pm is getting its light source from. Returning to the World Book Encyclopedia, the article on the Moon says: The moon rises and sets at different times. In the new moon phase, it rises above the horizon with the sun in the east and travels close to the sun across the sky. With each passing day, the moon rises an average of about 50 minutes later and drops about 12 degrees farther behind in relation to the sun. By the end of a week -- at the first quarter phase -- the moon rises at about noon and sets at about midnight. In another week -- at full moon -- it rises as the sun sets and sets and the sun rises. At last quarter, it rises at about midnight and sets at about noon. A week later -- back at new moon -- the moon and the sun rise together in the east. Given this information, if we know the sun rise and set schedual, it wouldn't be too difficult to make a more accurate moon appearance table. I'll get back to the list on this too I think.... - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield : ............ -=< strawberryJAMM >=- : Black Holes Are Merely jam@wimsey.com : Where God Divided By Zero http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html : ............... ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #88 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #89 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, 19 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 089 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nightshade" Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:50:07 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas > >1. Rewrite the 1000AC story and read it aloud to the players (or > > better yet, have them take roles and read it out like a script). > > Make Ixion and the other Hierarchs more shocked and disturbed at > > the rebellion. > > I wouldn't recommend this unless you want your players to know why > everything is happening. I personally think that would ruin things, since > part of the appeal is, I think, everyone's wondering why the hell the world > is going mad. This suggestion is very good with mature players (gives them a feel, and they will keep in-character/out-of-character knowledge secret). Also, one not neccessarily know which side is which, my players know that the major religion in Heldann has a black lion for a symbol, but not the name (play up the isolation of medieval lifestyle). Very useful if you use a small number of Gods with multiple culture-specific names (Ixion is the sun god of scholars in Alphatia, but is known as Solarios the Patriarch in Thyatis - same guy? can't be - they're at war). > >3. Kill Benekander off - he is a useless subplot. Use him in the > > first story (the mirror) then have him return (briefly) during > > the second adventure. He should die in the third, or maybe > > sometime before. Alternative: Have a Matter-Nature immortal or > > a peaceful immortal (Ordana, Terra, Djaea, Alphatia) tell the > > party about the evil in the world, in the hope that they will > > stop it. > > I actually think he's potentially very useful and interesting. See > my earlier post about using him instead of Asterius in the Hollow World > trilogy. Also, if your PCs go back in time to Blackmoor, as mine did, it > makes them a lot more interested in the aliens from DA2 and DA3. If you backdate Benekander (or update the HWAs) I can see where he is useful. I killed him off anyways, and used Draeden/time travelers to do the same thing - with more consequences. > A definite must. Adds to the chaos tremendously. I had the > rebellion in Thyatis over the bread, etc. in WotI coincide with the riots in > DDA2 Legions of Thyatis. I also had Jowett die and the Holy War between the > rebel faction of the Churh of Karameikos and the Church of Traladara begin, > partly by the will of Thyatis Immortals represented in the Church of > Karameikos who opposed Karameikos' neutrality because of their agendas in > the War. My civil war started when an NPC character (old member of the party) found Petra's warhammer and the Eye of Traldar, became a sancti (saint from the Best of Dragon), and began a purge of the kingdom. The war is currently centered around the Luln/Black Eagle border, but is rapidly spreading (as Stephan and Desmond overeact and begin a brutal suppression of the cult of Halav, believing them behind the whole conspiracy - Stephan is still refusing to accept the truth about his cousin). This is the real reason Karameikos is quiet for a few years, then sues for the easy way out. > True, although the Hundred Years' War didn't last its 120 years > simply because wars take a long time. That would be just too excessive. In > that case it had more to do with both sides having other things to worry > about and so stopping the fighting much of the time not because hostilities > ended but because they had other priorities. A realistic way of dealing with this War (albeit I agree that 120 yr. is too long - unless one wants to do the War elven style). Here's a few countries and possible reasons for there off and on participation in the War: 1. Darokin: starts out trying to negociate, then the blight, then the Huleans, the Orcs, the comet, plague, famine and economic collapse. 2. Heldann: aerial war with stricken Alphatia, Golden Horde of Ethengar, attacked by Norwold, plague, internal religious strife (revolt against Vanya), summer raiding by Ostland, humanoids from Denegroth. 3. Norwold: constant strains from internal traitors (CM1), giant attacks at winter, barbarians in fall/spring/summer, monster attacks, uncooperative non-human allies, Oceansend's hostile neutrality, isolation, dragons, low population. > >WotI is okay... I first heard that it supposed to be drawn out over > >three decades (a much more reasonable timescale). I think it would > >have been better (and higher quality) if this was the case. > > That's easy as pie to change, if one wants. I also think that if > one likes wars that end more quickly, it's easily justified on the grounds > that magic accomplishes more or less the same effect as modern technology in > speeding things up (e.g. magical transportation, magical firepower). Thinking a little high magic there, but it's a matter of setting and taste (I'm low magic, low fantasy). But the original 30 year plan would have set things out on a more leisurely scale and maybe have included a Birthright-style campaign turn system (maybe I'll rip off my friend's copy of BR and take a look at it). HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:38:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sun/moon rise/set times > isn't it the case that areas over the arctic circle and below the > antaractic circle have periods of 24 hours of sun/darkness? Perhaps > this chart needs a bit of work... That's true; the entire thing needs work. :) > Seeing as Mystara must have SOME tilt, or we wouldn't get changing seasons Actually, on the Almanac maps we're given the tropics, which are as far from the Equator as the [Ant]Arctic Circle is from the North Pole. However, since 90 degrees North isn't at the axis, I'll have to do a little number-fiddling. > And I am not willing to accept that the other moon -- Matera(sp?) -- is Patera. Matera is the large, normalish moon. > Also, I have to say that I can't possibly accept this, even though it is > given this way on the TSR Western Trail Map. I mean look at Month 2! The > Full Moon appears DURING THE DAY! Seeing as following normal physics, a > full moon appears that way because the Sun is, for all intents and > purposes, directly opposite it across the body of the planet the moon > orbits, it would be impossible to have a full moon AND the sun in the sky > at the same time. > > Given this information, if we know the sun rise and set schedual, it > wouldn't be too difficult to make a more accurate moon appearance table. > I'll get back to the list on this too I think.... I know and understand this just fine. However. I'm taking whatever TSR publishes as canon, and fitting whatever I can around that, just to keep the most people happy. :) Knowing how non-real fantasy worlds are, instead of fitting the statistics to physics, is there any way we can create physics that fit the statistics? (I just love science; if reality doesn't fit theory, toss out reality. :) ) For example; with gravity not following the inverse-square law, there is little reason for Matera to be tidally locked with Mystara. However, since we've been told that Pandius (an invisible city on the moon) always looks over Mystara, it either has to be near the poles or Matera, at the most, wags from side to side a little. Now then; can anybody think of why Matera would be white on one side and dark on the other, when the light/dark isn't sunlight/shadow? :) I haven't checked this out, either, but can anybody think of why the moon always rises earlier the further north you go, and sets later? :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: andmissinato@email.telpress.it (Missinato Andrea) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:56:58 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] Effective Dexterity Actually I think normal Dexterity (RC rule) ain't take armor weight in account enough. If a Character use an heavy armor, he'd less able to perform agility tasks than another that uses only normal cloths. I think the following works better: eff. Dex = Dex - [(9-AC base)/2] AC Base is only armor based AC, without any magic & dexterity bonus/malus. No protection = AC 10 Normal cloths = AC 9 Any comments? - -- Andrea Missinato andmissinato@email.telpress.it ------------------------------ From: andmissinato@email.telpress.it (Missinato Andrea) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:13:24 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sun/moon rise/set times Jenni A. Merrifield wrote: > > >This is a little dry, but I had nothing better to do for an hour, so.. :) > >I'm not entirely sure about some of the sun- times near the poles, and > >have marked them with ?s. > ---8<--snipped--8<--- > > Thanks for posting this, although, perhaps someone who has spent time > in the north can verify TSR's stats and your calculations. For example, > isn't it the case that areas over the arctic circle and below the > antaractic circle have periods of 24 hours of sun/darkness? Perhaps > this chart needs a bit of work... > [snip] > Given this information, if we know the sun rise and set schedual, it > wouldn't be too difficult to make a more accurate moon appearance table. > I'll get back to the list on this too I think.... > Yeah, all that is for earth'orbit. Better, is for *our* earth's orbit. But what about for an orbit of another planet, moreover hollow? - -- Andrea Missinato andmissinato@email.telpress.it ------------------------------ From: "Oeystein H. Lund." Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 03:08:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sun/moon rise/set times On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Missinato Andrea wrote: > > Given this information, if we know the sun rise and set schedual, it > > wouldn't be too difficult to make a more accurate moon appearance table. > > I'll get back to the list on this too I think.... > > Yeah, all that is for earth'orbit. Better, is for *our* earth's orbit. > But what about for an orbit of another planet, moreover hollow? > -- > Andrea Missinato > andmissinato@email.telpress.it Orbital mechanics and physics shouldn't change - that's Outer Planar territory. Moreover, some of us find the hollow world concept interesting as an idea, but stone stupid in the implementation, and consequently don't use it. And even if you do - the Hollow World is supposed to to be undetectable from the outside (hah !) - if it messed with orbital mechanics you've changed that, haven't you ? ------------------------------ From: Gordon McCormick Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:57:09 +0000 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Missing Persons (or, where'd that NPC go?) Oeystein H. Lund. wrote: > Nah, it's a blatant case of the TSR staff not reading their own > products closely before setting out to make something based on it. They > seem to have overlooked the history section of the Karameikos gazetteer > where it says that Stephan could have called it a kingdom from the word > go, but chose to name it a grand duchy to give the impression that > Thyatis would actually care a fig-leaf's worth about the country. > Then along comes WotI, in which the designers have the not-unreasonable > idea that Stephan wants to be king in name as well as fact - and commit > the unfortunate error of saying that the _Grand Duchy is a duchy in fact, > and not just in name. Worse, they have the Thyatian Emperor act on the > assumption that Karameikos is beholden to Thyatis in any way. Just ignore > it. Thincol wouldn't be so stupid as to make that particular strategic > > error... Actually both GAZ1 The Grand Duchy of Karameikos and WotI were designed by the same person, Arron Allston, so I don't think there was any miscommunication between the two :) Actually, I don't recall it saying in WotI that it was an actual Duchy, it was just that Stefan didn't want the Alphatians thinking it was, so he did what he'd been wanting to do for ages, while Thyatian troops were busy elsewhere and declared himself King. - -- Gordon McCormick <*> gmccormi@cs.strath.ac.uk http://www.strath.ac.uk/~aau95370/index.html ------------------------------ From: Gordon McCormick Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:23:27 +0000 Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas > On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > > > I have another quick question/request. I'm just starting to run WotI > > with my gaming group. Can anyone offer any suggestions/information on the > > following: > > > > 1) improving the story line I didn't change much of the Benekander/Rhedrrian stuff, but concentrated a bit more on the Kelter Zerban stuff, with the PC's mucking about with Hel a wee bit. > > 4) how WotI went for other DM's when they ran it It went really well, the only problem being that after WotI, where is there to go? :) I mixed two campaigns for WotI, using characters we were already using from Glantri plus a new lot from Karameikos. We played the Karameikons in the afternoon and the Glatnrians in the evening...sheesh, wish I had time to do that these days :) Anyway, the Glantri campaign had been based on a mix of the Gazeteer and lots of 40's detective movies, with the PC's as Private Investigators. Worked really well too, Film Noir goes so well with Glantri IMO. (and we didn't do that cos I'd been watching Maltese Falcon the day before we started our new Glantri campaign :) ) So the Glantrians eventually went into Politics, got sent over to Alphatia when things got bad (guess what the Fire Elementalist did in Asla? :) ) as well as nip after a suspect into Shadowelf territories, where the PC alchemist helped them to develop a poison for Trees... Meanwhile the Karameikans got chased all over the place by an assassin sent after them after playing DDA3 (I like using dungeon crawls as introductory adventures) and saw much of the war on the continent first hand... In effect, anything happening in the South, one lot of PC's would run across, anything in the North (except Heldann) the other lot would encounter. Worked really well too, since all 3 of the players got there hands in mass destruction (one started the war, one poisoned Alfheim, the other sunk Alphatia in the end adventure) while at the same time being herioc and just (well, as far as their own countries were concerned. One of the best adventures (from my pov anyway) was running the PC's through Retibius after Zerban, while the Alphatians attacked. Nothing like a massive pitched battle where the PC's really don't want to help either side and spend ages trying not to get killed... Anyway, enough rambling...If I was going to do it again, I'd want to use two groups again, since it gives you more scope, also I'd try and use the HWA series like David "Azure" Leland did. laters, - -- Gordon McCormick <*> gmccormi@cs.strath.ac.uk http://www.strath.ac.uk/~aau95370/index.html ------------------------------ From: Herve MUSSEAU Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 13:21:15 MET Subject: Re: [Mystara] Clerics in Glantri > Ok, you're right when saying that not all nobles associated with a Prince > should vote like him (except perhaps for the ones linked to Igorov), but > then you're talking about the House of lord in Parliament, where every noble > can vote and where, at last, the bill (barely) passes, whereas I was talking > about the Council. Because first a bill is voted in the Council, then if > this one is deadlocked, it goes to the Parliament. And the Council is > composed only of the 10 Princes. > I can just mix the 10 Princes in various way and add their votes until the > two factions are balanced, but I don't think this is a good idea. There > should be a logical explanation. > > >> But, in this way, the "no" votes are 97 against 94 "yes" and the Council > >> isn't deadlocked. So, what do you think are the real fronts ? > > > > Remember the players! > > > > In my own campaign, there were 3-5 PC barons and viscounts at the > >time. Their vote made a difference (as it always may in my campaign). > > > If you have nobles PC, all right, but that's not my case and I don't think > that whoever at TSR decided to allow clerics in Glantri (was it Ann Dupuis > in PC4 ?) thought at your players (no offense intended). > IIRC, clerics were allowed in Glantri during the plague that erupted during the war (WotI). So it was a special time, and clerics were badly needed, which can modify the normal feeling the princes and nobles of Glantri have toward them. IIRC, at that same time new principalities had already been enfoeoffed, but I'm not sure which ones (check Daniel's Timeline for this:). If they are indeed new princes at the time of the vote, the coalitions are very different. - -- Herve Musseau musseauh@esiee.fr ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:01:26 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Mystara] Order of the Owl On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > Greetings, > > I've been on the list a while now, but I don't delurk often, so for > those who've joined more recently and don't know me, let me just reintroduce > myself. I'm David Leland, DMing a WotI Mystara campaign for about 3.5 years > (real time) now using OD&D with plenty of splicing in from AD&D. I've read > of people wanting ideas for WotI campaigns and so I just wanted to relate > how I used the HWA (Hollow World Adventure) modules series (Nightrage, > Nightwail, Nightstorm, I think are the names) with WotI. > Notice then that I basically skipped HWA1. I should also note that > the PC cleric, actually a Hsaio named Okuwa, was a cleric of what he called > the Order of the Owl, whose patron advocated Immortal nonintervention and a > Mystara for Mystarans outlook. Unbeknownst to the cleric (and other PCs), > the patron was actually Benekander/Rheddrian, and while the party had met > Rheddrian and was working for him, none, not even Okuwa, knew that the Order > of the Owl was really a cover for Benekander to raise a following while > trying to stay unnoticed by other Immortals. I am not too keen on all of your ideas here, primarily because I just love the HWA series, and perhaps because its just a bit too much happening at the same time for me. Anyway, i was intrigued by this "Order of the Owl".... Have you developed that further? Let us know.. Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Thomas Ackermann Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:59:15 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas > This suggestion is very good with mature players (gives them a > feel, and they will keep in-character/out-of-character knowledge > secret). Also, one not neccessarily know which side is which, my > players know that the major religion in Heldann has a black lion for > a symbol, but not the name (play up the isolation of medieval > lifestyle). Very useful if you use a small number of Gods with > multiple culture-specific names (Ixion is the sun god of scholars in > Alphatia, but is known as Solarios the Patriarch in Thyatis - same > guy? can't be - they're at war). I would realy like to know, how some of you handle this God-Stuff ... I mean, WotI seem to push Immortals to Gods - i can't remember now, if the original Golden Set did the same ... Immortals have churches, followers, religions, ... I did never see Immortals as that - they are people of legend, ascended to immortality over their immortal legend and reputation, whereas i see Gods as something much more capable ... I finaly resolved that conflict by using Primal Order from WotC, and handle Immortals and Demons more or less than Demigods with a Miniplane as their own, which for this purpose works as Homeplane for them - with all the effects, Homeplanes for Immortals have in the T$R-rules - while for purpose of the Deities, this Miniplanes push the Demigods (Immortals and Demons) to the rank of Supported Demigods ... The rule work quit good together, and i handle Power-Points like Primal Base, and temporal Powerpoints as Primal Flux ... Immortals have for this simply tPP = PP in the sense that their Primal Base is exactly their Primal Flux ... I added the godly ability to convert PP to additional tPP if needed (slightly other than in ther Immortal-rules). Good thing is, that i not only can handle (t)PP as Primal (Flux)Base, but am able to handle both exactly as GURPS CP! Some changes were nessesary to merge all three systems: Immortals can create mortal bodies with 50 PP, exalted (including their own forms) for 100 PP, a "soul" for addition 50 PP and any normal other body for the costs, a GURPS character would cost ... (between 100p and 1000p normally). Gods can do some things more cheap and others more expensive. My question is, are there other people out in the net, who run the Immortals from T$R *not* as Gods, but as simply mighty, immortal demigod-like beeings? (Or am i the only one? ;-| Byebye, ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:14:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Order of the Owl >> Notice then that I basically skipped HWA1. I should also note that >> the PC cleric, actually a Hsaio named Okuwa, was a cleric of what he called >> the Order of the Owl, whose patron advocated Immortal nonintervention and a >> Mystara for Mystarans outlook. Unbeknownst to the cleric (and other PCs), >> the patron was actually Benekander/Rheddrian, and while the party had met >> Rheddrian and was working for him, none, not even Okuwa, knew that the Order >> of the Owl was really a cover for Benekander to raise a following while >> trying to stay unnoticed by other Immortals. > This just hit me. Would Benekander, and his non-intervention message, really be that popular a belief in the Hollow World? Ixion: "Fine, they don't want us we'll just take our sun and go home." Alphatia, now a floating island, slamming into the ground at 3 or 4 hundred miles an hour. What do you think it is, a Chinese satilite or something? Shrug, just a thought. The Hollow World wouldn't exist without the Immortals. Am I wrong? (wouldn't be the first time) I can see it on the surface world, where life occured somewhat normally, but in the Immortals own little terarium it's kinda wierd. - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:04:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas >My question is, are there other people out in the net, who run the Immortals >from T$R *not* as Gods, but as simply mighty, immortal demigod-like beeings? > I dunno. I don't see what the point of making the destinction is really. I mean, if Immortals aren't gods...how do Clerics in Mystara get their spells? What are the Old Ones then? (In my campaign Ao is an Old One.) If the Old Ones are Gods, how do they survive without worship and how do you justify it's so damn difficult to become an Old One, but what 3, 4 people in recent FR campaigns have become gods? If Powers only have a little realm in a plane, what do Immortals get? (If they're not the same do they deserve the same type of home?) If you look at it from a historical perspective, the old Master set had rules on becoming an immortal but stated "there will be no rules detailing immortals" (OK I can't guarentee it said this, but I'm pretty sure..I'll look tonight.) Then bam, a little later the Gold Boxed set came out. What's at the end of the AD&D High Level Campaigns book? Rules for becoming a god (demi-god actually). And they look almost identical to the rules for becoming an immortal in the old Master set. There's already been one book told from a God's perspective (Prince of Lies), and 3-4 people have become gods in FR campaigns lately (Midnight, Cyric and Finder; others fail to come to mind). And there's a Planescape book coming out detailing the lives of Gods on the outer planes. What's this tell you? AD&D is wising up and will probably start treating it's Gods more like the Immortals of Mystara. So, I don't see any problem with using the TSR stats for Gods for Immortals (and unless you play a cross-world campaign it makes no difference anyway.) It seems to me that the two are a lot closer lately then you may realize. Besides, Immortals like Thanatos, Ixion, and Terra should be more by now then just "mighty, immortal demi-god type beings". I'd put them up against Cyric, Mystra, and Torm any day. So my simple answer is. I don't treat Immortals like Gods, I treat my gods like Immortals. (The gold box, with all it's flaws, kicked but anyway.) :-) - -Bob One last coincidence (The Master set broke down Immortals into Greater, Great, Lesser...etc. and AD&D breaks gods down into Greater Powers, Intermediate Powers, Lesser Powers., etc.) They're really just the same thing, only no one ever bothered to publish AD&D God's stats like the Gold Box set did. I'm just waiting for the "AD&D Gold Box Set to come out." Until then (and I'm not holding my breath) I'll use the D&D one. :-) - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:51:26 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas > I would realy like to know, how some of you handle this God-Stuff ... Well, as you can see, as I'm not publishing my campaigns for public abuse by righ-wing ultra-conservatives, I use the label God and Goddess with impunity. > I mean, WotI seem to push Immortals to Gods - i can't remember now, if the > original Golden Set did the same ... In-game reasons are mutable, they did it to duck from public "occult" scandal. > Immortals have churches, followers, religions, ... > > I did never see Immortals as that - they are people of legend, ascended to > immortality over their immortal legend and reputation, whereas i see Gods as > something much more capable ... Good idea, but it breaks down with people like Nyx (who nbody seems to worship), Orcus (who was a Demon Lord, and thus needs no worshippers or ever been mortal) or Ixion and the other six (who were never mortal, being born from the primal force of creation). > I finaly resolved that conflict by using Primal Order from WotC, and handle > Immortals and Demons more or less than Demigods with a Miniplane as their own, > which for this purpose works as Homeplane for them - with all the effects, > Homeplanes for Immortals have in the T$R-rules - while for purpose of the > Deities, this Miniplanes push the Demigods (Immortals and Demons) to the > rank of Supported Demigods ... That's why I ordered (waited for half a century) and bought TPO. I don't like the math involved in finding out how much Primal Energy (almost identicle to PP) Ixion has by counting his followers and deducting the energy needed to support his clerics and paladins (Primal Flux [TP] equal to the highest spell level cast by each priest, per day). I also disliked the ammount of plabnes one needed to control to be a certain type of god (these planes are not the infinite monstrocities D&D is used to). > My question is, are there other people out in the net, who run the Immortals > from T$R *not* as Gods, but as simply mighty, immortal demigod-like beeings? As I said, some of my gods can be seen in that way, but all in all, I prefer the God end of the spectrum. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #89 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #90 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, 20 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 090 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 00:27:20 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Clerics in Glantri At 13.21 19/03/96 MET, Herve Musseau wrote: >IIRC, clerics were allowed in Glantri during the plague that erupted during >the war (WotI). So it was a special time, and clerics were badly needed, which >can modify the normal feeling the princes and nobles of Glantri have toward >them. Not exactly, clerics were introduced before WotI, it's in PC4. >IIRC, at that same time new principalities had already been enfoeoffed, but I'm >not sure which ones (check Daniel's Timeline for this:). If they are indeed new >princes at the time of the vote, the coalitions are very different. > Actually the clerics were introduced in AC1001, while the first new principality (Bramyra) was created in AC1003. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 00:27:50 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] PC changing class One of my PCs recently died in Aalban (Glantri) and, due to the lack of clerics, was reincarnated with the MU spell, instead of raised. But reincarnation (altough I modified a bit the original spell given in RC) is not the same of raise dead. In fact, now he is a Shadow Elf in a human body, actually a human thief... who doesn't speak a word of any human language :-) Yesterday the player told me: "Can I change my class ?" (he wants to become a mystic), and, thinking at Khelter Zerben in WotI, I answered "Yes, but you should start again from 1st level". "Ok", he said, "but what about my hit points ?" and then told me to ask the mailing list and that's what I'm doing. Obviously there's no reason for which he should start rolling again his hit points from zero, but there's either no reason for which a PC should gain new hp everytime he gains new levels (until 9th level). What do you think ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 00:27:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas At 15.50 18/03/96 AST, Hickey Matthew wrote: >> >1. Rewrite the 1000AC story and read it aloud to the players (or >> > better yet, have them take roles and read it out like a script). >> > Make Ixion and the other Hierarchs more shocked and disturbed at >> > the rebellion. >> >> I wouldn't recommend this unless you want your players to know why >> everything is happening. I personally think that would ruin things, since >> part of the appeal is, I think, everyone's wondering why the hell the world >> is going mad. > > This suggestion is very good with mature players (gives them a >feel, and they will keep in-character/out-of-character knowledge >secret). I haven't run WotI yet, but, as a DM, I don't think letting the players know about the 1000AC immortal's quarrel is a good idea. I like the idea of my players wondering why the world suddenly goes mad without apparent reasons. As a player, I should say that keep a sharp distinction between in-character and out-of-character knowledge isn't an easy task and only the best players can do that, but mature players aren't common stuff. Anyway I should say that often people who have experience as DM are also good players. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:53:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas At 12:27 AM 3/20/96 +0100, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >I haven't run WotI yet, but, as a DM, I don't think letting the players know >about the 1000AC immortal's quarrel is a good idea. I like the idea of my >players wondering why the world suddenly goes mad without apparent reasons. >As a player, I should say that keep a sharp distinction between in-character >and out-of-character knowledge isn't an easy task and only the best players >can do that, but mature players aren't common stuff. Anyway I should say >that often people who have experience as DM are also good players. Not only is it difficult, but I think that in many ways it makes things less fun. I think I'm pretty good at keeping IC/OC (in-character/out-of-character) knowledge separate, but regardless, I get a healthy portion of my enjoyment on the rare occassions that I play instead of DM from *not* knowing what's going on, from piecing things together with fellow party members, detective-style. Similarly, I don't like to read the last page of books before starting the beginning. Part of the goal my players have in working for Rheddrian is figuring out what the Immortals are up to, which ones, where, why, and ultimately, how the whole mess can be stopped. My campaign, which is interwoven with WotI, has been running for 3.5 years so far and will end when I graduate at the end of this, my 4th year in undergraduate college. At the end, I think I'll present the Immortal's quarrel to my players as a sort of epi-prologue, so that they'll have the pleasure of knowing how everything started, but not until they've had the chance to figure out for themselves as much as they can. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:14:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] PC changing class At 12:27 AM 3/20/96 +0100, you wrote: >One of my PCs recently died in Aalban (Glantri) and, due to the lack of >clerics, was reincarnated with the MU spell, instead of raised. But >reincarnation (altough I modified a bit the original spell given in RC) is >not the same of raise dead. >In fact, now he is a Shadow Elf in a human body, actually a human thief... >who doesn't speak a word of any human language :-) >Yesterday the player told me: "Can I change my class ?" (he wants to become >a mystic), and, thinking at Khelter Zerben in WotI, I answered "Yes, but you >should start again from 1st level". >"Ok", he said, "but what about my hit points ?" and then told me to ask the >mailing list and that's what I'm doing. >Obviously there's no reason for which he should start rolling again his hit >points from zero, but there's either no reason for which a PC should gain >new hp everytime he gains new levels (until 9th level). >What do you think ? Personally, I think the whole idea of one keeping all (or even most) of one's memories and dispositions but changing form AND class is very problematic. If the person is "mentally" the same, then how can he/she lose all of the class-specific abilities and suddenly gain new ones? Things like THAC0, hit points, etc. are at least consistently above-normal-human in either case, but otherwise this seems pretty inconsistent to me. If you can have a Elvish-speaking shaman or non-shaman shadow elf suddenly become a human that retains all previous memories but none of the shadow elf abilities, has the sudden abilities of an X-th level thief, and can't speak a human language, I'd say whatever you want to do about hit points can't be criticized as illogical. At a point like that perhaps fairness and balance is the only consideration. If the PC is adventuring with other characters of a level significantly higher than level 1, maybe you should let this character keep the higher hp and even saves and THAC0, but have none of them improve with level increases until he reaches a Mystic level one higher than his previous shadow elf level. This way he stands at least a chance of surviving, and will at least gain Mystic AC bonuses and abilities even if nothing else changes with each level. Good luck! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:42:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas > >My question is, are there other people out in the net, who run the Immortals > >from T$R *not* as Gods, but as simply mighty, immortal demigod-like beeings? > > > I dunno. I don't see what the point of making the destinction is really. > > I mean, if Immortals aren't gods...how do Clerics in Mystara get their > spells? What are the Old Ones then? (In my campaign Ao is an Old One.) If > the Old Ones are Gods, how do they survive without worship and how do you > justify it's so damn difficult to become an Old One, but what 3, 4 people > in recent FR campaigns have become gods? > > If Powers only have a little realm in a plane, what do Immortals get? (If > they're not the same do they deserve the same type of home?) > > If you look at it from a historical perspective, the old Master set had > rules on becoming an immortal but stated "there will be no rules detailing > immortals" (OK I can't guarentee it said this, but I'm pretty sure..I'll > look tonight.) Then bam, a little later the Gold Boxed set came out. > > What's at the end of the AD&D High Level Campaigns book? Rules for > becoming a god (demi-god actually). And they look almost identical to the > rules for becoming an immortal in the old Master set. There's already been > one book told from a God's perspective (Prince of Lies), and 3-4 people > have become gods in FR campaigns lately (Midnight, Cyric and Finder; others > fail to come to mind). And there's a Planescape book coming out detailing > the lives of Gods on the outer planes. > > What's this tell you? Mhh, nothing. But please see below! > AD&D is wising up and will probably start treating it's Gods more like the > Immortals of Mystara. So, I don't see any problem with using the TSR stats > for Gods for Immortals (and unless you play a cross-world campaign it makes > no difference anyway.) It seems to me that the two are a lot closer lately > then you may realize. This is not what i meant ... Gods from T$R and Immortals from the same company may be related as closely as they may/want. > Besides, Immortals like Thanatos, Ixion, and Terra should be more by now > then just "mighty, immortal demi-god type beings". I'd put them up against > Cyric, Mystra, and Torm any day. I don't know C., M and T., but i have no problem with this high Immortals being as mighty as any/most/whatever God with some God-Rules from T$R. My question was more about if you (the people on the list) treat Immortals from the Golden Set or from WotI (and if you wish these Gods from AD&D) realy as *GODS* - in that they have followers, religions and so on ... I mean, mighty as a Hierarch (or the mighties God from AD&D) may be, he sure is not a GOD to me (and i'm not a religious person) - me seems, that GODS should be able to do things on a *much* greater scale ... They shoulf be able to create or destroy whole planets, planes, star-system or galaxies - even the lesser ones, as the *big* versions (religions with one single god) should be able to do the same with whole universes, multiverses and possible realities ... Immortals (and Gods from AD&D ...) are mighty, but more in a acceptable way - they resamble a higher state of evolution, as i see it, but only one step above human-kind (or maybe orc-kind, or whatever). The Old Ones, are the next step above the Immortals, and have separated themselves through the Barrier that is the border between the 5. and 6. dimension - just to observe their experiment, the Multiverse ... They wait for Hierarchs to ascend to their state of evolution, and they may be watched themselve by the next higher step in the chain of evolution ... I see this chain to be *very* long - maybe even infinite! (This every stage of God has a Meta-God themselve, and so on ...) In this context, i cannot accept Immortals or Gods from AD&D as GODS ... And about this was my question - if you *realy* use this Immortals/Gods as GODS in that they have followers, can provide spells, have a hearing ear for everyone, and so on ... I always saw them as Demigods (in my sense) - as such *very* capable, but more as legendary, immortal Heros (like Hercules from Greek - who was son of a God, Zeus) with *great* might! In my campaign, i never used this immortals as providers of spells, but developed much *older* beeings, that can tap cosmic energies on a sub- concious level and thus can provide spells to followers ... Nevertheless, Immortals (as sort of Demi-Gods) can ascend to this level of evolution, but it need either alot of time - at least 1000 years after mortal, and then beeing supported from followers who do not know you were ever *realy* mortal ... just like legend arise, or through some evolution as Immortal (gaining planes, increasing influence, strenghen the own sphere in yourself, your homeplane and in all plot, as well as on the prima plane, and so on) ... (For the last way, i use (parts) of Primal Order from WotC) > So my simple answer is. I don't treat Immortals like Gods, I treat my gods > like Immortals. (The gold box, with all it's flaws, kicked but anyway.) > :-) Yes! I liked (and like!) the Golden Set by far at most! > One last coincidence (The Master set broke down Immortals into Greater, > Great, Lesser...etc. and AD&D breaks gods down into Greater Powers, > Intermediate Powers, Lesser Powers., etc.) They're really just the same > thing, only no one ever bothered to publish AD&D God's stats like the Gold > Box set did. I'm just waiting for the "AD&D Gold Box Set to come out." > Until then (and I'm not holding my breath) I'll use the D&D one. :-) ;-) I'm with you! Sorry for our missunderstanding and Byebye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:57:15 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas > > I would realy like to know, how some of you handle this God-Stuff ... > > Well, as you can see, as I'm not publishing my campaigns for > public abuse by righ-wing ultra-conservatives, I use the label God > and Goddess with impunity. ? > > I mean, WotI seem to push Immortals to Gods - i can't remember now, if the > > original Golden Set did the same ... > > In-game reasons are mutable, they did it to duck from public > "occult" scandal. > > > > Immortals have churches, followers, religions, ... > > > > I did never see Immortals as that - they are people of legend, ascended to > > immortality over their immortal legend and reputation, whereas i see Gods as > > something much more capable ... > > Good idea, but it breaks down with people like Nyx (who nbody > seems to worship), Orcus (who was a Demon Lord, and thus needs no > worshippers or ever been mortal) or Ixion and the other six (who were > never mortal, being born from the primal force of creation). Ups, from where did you get this from? (Ahh, there was suggestion in a book, yes?) I have done this in another way - the first Immortals found the Universe (like in the Golden Set), and only some of them still live - this happens to be at 200 million year before now ... I interpreted this as - some Immortals either were created by a more capable race (or such), or some mortal races evoled some few beeings to this state ... I can accept personification of cosmic principles and such, but an mere Immortal born of a plane? I think, all Immortals are born mortal - and evolved through this or that meaning or way ... > > I finaly resolved that conflict by using Primal Order from WotC, and handle > > Immortals and Demons more or less than Demigods with a Miniplane as their own, > > which for this purpose works as Homeplane for them - with all the effects, > > Homeplanes for Immortals have in the T$R-rules - while for purpose of the > > Deities, this Miniplanes push the Demigods (Immortals and Demons) to the > > rank of Supported Demigods ... > > That's why I ordered (waited for half a century) and bought TPO. > I don't like the math involved in finding out how much Primal Energy > (almost identicle to PP) Ixion has by counting his followers and > deducting the energy needed to support his clerics and paladins > (Primal Flux [TP] equal to the highest spell level cast by each > priest, per day). I also disliked the ammount of plabnes one needed > to control to be a certain type of god (these planes are not the > infinite monstrocities D&D is used to). > > > My question is, are there other people out in the net, who run the Immortals > > from T$R *not* as Gods, but as simply mighty, immortal demigod-like beeings? > > As I said, some of my gods can be seen in that way, but all in > all, I prefer the God end of the spectrum. If this means, that a *god* should be far beyond the capabilities of every game-version, i agree - i have no problems to see "gods" as a hierarchy of more and more evolved beeings (or maybe the other way round, there was One who then created something below him, that in turn, ... Or first the One, who creates the lowest level (humans, and other mortals), and every other step is realy a evolution - lesser gods like the Immortals, then the next step in evolution, the Old Ones, then the gods of the Old Ones, and so on ... ) Btw. i like the cosmology of Marvel - with this Infinity Gauntlet, the stones that resamble the first beeing, the Watchers, the Beyonders and the Beyonder, Galactus, and so on ... It gives more diversity. On that scale, i would consider Immortals (and Gods from AD&D) more like the Eternals or maybe Titans - high evolved races - through long times of evolution ... but they too are no Gods. Meiei, i'm too tired, i have to go to sleep - sorry! Byebye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Mar 20 04:41:45 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 19 Mar 96 23:41 EST Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA21395 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:30:17 -0600 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA21364 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:29:19 -0600 Received: from loopback.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa (root@rhrz-ts2-p12.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.224.122]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA04303 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:27:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from tgm@localhost) by localhost (8.6.11/8.6.11) id DAA00814; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:43:54 -0700 From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Message-Id: <199603201043.DAA00814@localhost> Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas To: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:42:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: tgm@loopback.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa (Thomas Ackermann) In-Reply-To: from "Robert Kaelin" at Mar 19, 96 05:04:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 6303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com > >My question is, are there other people out in the net, who run the Immortals > >from T$R *not* as Gods, but as simply mighty, immortal demigod-like beeings? > > > I dunno. I don't see what the point of making the destinction is really. > > I mean, if Immortals aren't gods...how do Clerics in Mystara get their > spells? What are the Old Ones then? (In my campaign Ao is an Old One.) If > the Old Ones are Gods, how do they survive without worship and how do you > justify it's so damn difficult to become an Old One, but what 3, 4 people > in recent FR campaigns have become gods? > > If Powers only have a little realm in a plane, what do Immortals get? (If > they're not the same do they deserve the same type of home?) > > If you look at it from a historical perspective, the old Master set had > rules on becoming an immortal but stated "there will be no rules detailing > immortals" (OK I can't guarentee it said this, but I'm pretty sure..I'll > look tonight.) Then bam, a little later the Gold Boxed set came out. > > What's at the end of the AD&D High Level Campaigns book? Rules for > becoming a god (demi-god actually). And they look almost identical to the > rules for becoming an immortal in the old Master set. There's already been > one book told from a God's perspective (Prince of Lies), and 3-4 people > have become gods in FR campaigns lately (Midnight, Cyric and Finder; others > fail to come to mind). And there's a Planescape book coming out detailing > the lives of Gods on the outer planes. > > What's this tell you? Mhh, nothing. But please see below! > AD&D is wising up and will probably start treating it's Gods more like the > Immortals of Mystara. So, I don't see any problem with using the TSR stats > for Gods for Immortals (and unless you play a cross-world campaign it makes > no difference anyway.) It seems to me that the two are a lot closer lately > then you may realize. This is not what i meant ... Gods from T$R and Immortals from the same company may be related as closely as they may/want. > Besides, Immortals like Thanatos, Ixion, and Terra should be more by now > then just "mighty, immortal demi-god type beings". I'd put them up against > Cyric, Mystra, and Torm any day. I don't know C., M and T., but i have no problem with this high Immortals being as mighty as any/most/whatever God with some God-Rules from T$R. My question was more about if you (the people on the list) treat Immortals from the Golden Set or from WotI (and if you wish these Gods from AD&D) realy as *GODS* - in that they have followers, religions and so on ... I mean, mighty as a Hierarch (or the mighties God from AD&D) may be, he sure is not a GOD to me (and i'm not a religious person) - me seems, that GODS should be able to do things on a *much* greater scale ... They shoulf be able to create or destroy whole planets, planes, star-system or galaxies - even the lesser ones, as the *big* versions (religions with one single god) should be able to do the same with whole universes, multiverses and possible realities ... Immortals (and Gods from AD&D ...) are mighty, but more in a acceptable way - they resamble a higher state of evolution, as i see it, but only one step above human-kind (or maybe orc-kind, or whatever). The Old Ones, are the next step above the Immortals, and have separated themselves through the Barrier that is the border between the 5. and 6. dimension - just to observe their experiment, the Multiverse ... They wait for Hierarchs to ascend to their state of evolution, and they may be watched themselve by the next higher step in the chain of evolution ... I see this chain to be *very* long - maybe even infinite! (This every stage of God has a Meta-God themselve, and so on ...) In this context, i cannot accept Immortals or Gods from AD&D as GODS ... And about this was my question - if you *realy* use this Immortals/Gods as GODS in that they have followers, can provide spells, have a hearing ear for everyone, and so on ... I always saw them as Demigods (in my sense) - as such *very* capable, but more as legendary, immortal Heros (like Hercules from Greek - who was son of a God, Zeus) with *great* might! In my campaign, i never used this immortals as providers of spells, but developed much *older* beeings, that can tap cosmic energies on a sub- concious level and thus can provide spells to followers ... Nevertheless, Immortals (as sort of Demi-Gods) can ascend to this level of evolution, but it need either alot of time - at least 1000 years after mortal, and then beeing supported from followers who do not know you were ever *realy* mortal ... just like legend arise, or through some evolution as Immortal (gaining planes, increasing influence, strenghen the own sphere in yourself, your homeplane and in all plot, as well as on the prima plane, and so on) ... (For the last way, i use (parts) of Primal Order from WotC) > So my simple answer is. I don't treat Immortals like Gods, I treat my gods > like Immortals. (The gold box, with all it's flaws, kicked but anyway.) > :-) Yes! I liked (and like!) the Golden Set by far at most! > One last coincidence (The Master set broke down Immortals into Greater, > Great, Lesser...etc. and AD&D breaks gods down into Greater Powers, > Intermediate Powers, Lesser Powers., etc.) They're really just the same > thing, only no one ever bothered to publish AD&D God's stats like the Gold > Box set did. I'm just waiting for the "AD&D Gold Box Set to come out." > Until then (and I'm not holding my breath) I'll use the D&D one. :-) ;-) I'm with you! Sorry for our missunderstanding and Byebye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Mar 20 05:05:16 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 20 Mar 96 00:05 EST Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA21439 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:42:28 -0600 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA21396 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:30:18 -0600 Received: from loopback.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa (root@rhrz-ts2-p12.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.224.122]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA04293 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:26:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from tgm@localhost) by localhost (8.6.11/8.6.11) id DAA00849; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:58:36 -0700 From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Message-Id: <199603201058.DAA00849@localhost> Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas To: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:57:15 -0700 (MST) Cc: tgm@loopback.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa (Thomas Ackermann) In-Reply-To: from "Nightshade" at Mar 19, 96 06:51:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 4504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com > > I would realy like to know, how some of you handle this God-Stuff ... > > Well, as you can see, as I'm not publishing my campaigns for > public abuse by righ-wing ultra-conservatives, I use the label God > and Goddess with impunity. ? > > I mean, WotI seem to push Immortals to Gods - i can't remember now, if the > > original Golden Set did the same ... > > In-game reasons are mutable, they did it to duck from public > "occult" scandal. > > > > Immortals have churches, followers, religions, ... > > > > I did never see Immortals as that - they are people of legend, ascended to > > immortality over their immortal legend and reputation, whereas i see Gods as > > something much more capable ... > > Good idea, but it breaks down with people like Nyx (who nbody > seems to worship), Orcus (who was a Demon Lord, and thus needs no > worshippers or ever been mortal) or Ixion and the other six (who were > never mortal, being born from the primal force of creation). Ups, from where did you get this from? (Ahh, there was suggestion in a book, yes?) I have done this in another way - the first Immortals found the Universe (like in the Golden Set), and only some of them still live - this happens to be at 200 million year before now ... I interpreted this as - some Immortals either were created by a more capable race (or such), or some mortal races evoled some few beeings to this state ... I can accept personification of cosmic principles and such, but an mere Immortal born of a plane? I think, all Immortals are born mortal - and evolved through this or that meaning or way ... > > I finaly resolved that conflict by using Primal Order from WotC, and handle > > Immortals and Demons more or less than Demigods with a Miniplane as their own, > > which for this purpose works as Homeplane for them - with all the effects, > > Homeplanes for Immortals have in the T$R-rules - while for purpose of the > > Deities, this Miniplanes push the Demigods (Immortals and Demons) to the > > rank of Supported Demigods ... > > That's why I ordered (waited for half a century) and bought TPO. > I don't like the math involved in finding out how much Primal Energy > (almost identicle to PP) Ixion has by counting his followers and > deducting the energy needed to support his clerics and paladins > (Primal Flux [TP] equal to the highest spell level cast by each > priest, per day). I also disliked the ammount of plabnes one needed > to control to be a certain type of god (these planes are not the > infinite monstrocities D&D is used to). > > > My question is, are there other people out in the net, who run the Immortals > > from T$R *not* as Gods, but as simply mighty, immortal demigod-like beeings? > > As I said, some of my gods can be seen in that way, but all in > all, I prefer the God end of the spectrum. If this means, that a *god* should be far beyond the capabilities of every game-version, i agree - i have no problems to see "gods" as a hierarchy of more and more evolved beeings (or maybe the other way round, there was One who then created something below him, that in turn, ... Or first the One, who creates the lowest level (humans, and other mortals), and every other step is realy a evolution - lesser gods like the Immortals, then the next step in evolution, the Old Ones, then the gods of the Old Ones, and so on ... ) Btw. i like the cosmology of Marvel - with this Infinity Gauntlet, the stones that resamble the first beeing, the Watchers, the Beyonders and the Beyonder, Galactus, and so on ... It gives more diversity. On that scale, i would consider Immortals (and Gods from AD&D) more like the Eternals or maybe Titans - high evolved races - through long times of evolution ... but they too are no Gods. Meiei, i'm too tired, i have to go to sleep - sorry! Byebye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #90 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #91 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, 21 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 091 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carsten Gundlach Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:58:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Texts and lists On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Daniel Niklasson wrote: > > Im new with the world of Mystara.I would be very grateful if eny good > person(s) would like to send me, text and lists about Mystara. Like history, > Immortals and just about enything u think that I would like. > > Thanks > > Daniel Niklasson > > toron@tripnet.se > > > > If you get some info, would you forward some to me. I'm also new in th world of Mystara, and I would like some info about the world. Thanks Carsten Gundlach ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:41:41 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] Immortals as Gods? [Was: WotI ideas] On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Thomas Ackermann wrote: > I would realy like to know, how some of you handle this God-Stuff ... > > I mean, WotI seem to push Immortals to Gods - i can't remember now, if the > original Golden Set did the same ... > > Immortals have churches, followers, religions, ... > > I did never see Immortals as that - they are people of legend, ascended to > immortality over their immortal legend and reputation, whereas i see Gods as > something much more capable ... > I too, strongly dislike the presentation that the Immortals are given in the WotI boxed set. I feel that Frank Mentzer's presentation of them in the original gold set is much more the way they should be- Superpowerful, greater than human creatures, but not gods in an AD&D sense of the word. I tend to treat them as scientists/explorers of the cosmos, rather than as godlike beings. Some of them do interact with Mystara, for various reasons: 1) It is the planet many of them have come from (ie- the immortals mentioned in the books, which are likely a fairly small number of the total), and as such, they still have interests in the planet and its inhabitants. The primary means of influencing Mystara (and/or other planets) is through clerics. (more on this below) 2) It seems to be a rather unique planet, being home to all sorts of races and creatures (even some from other worlds), whether due simply to its magical nature or other factors, who can say? These are just a few of the potential reasons that immortals might wish to interact with Mystara of all planets as much as they do. As far as clerics go, I treat them not as disciples necessarily, but rather as people who are born with special abilities to a) manipulate that portion of the weave of magic that generates clerical abilities, b) have a special ability that makes it easier for immortals to contact them, or c) both. Their abilities derive from the fundamental power of magic of the universe, and while they are often able to manipulate it on their own, it is often easier for them to understand it and use it if they are taught its workings by others who are able to use it- ie, the immortals. In other words, the immortals are not so much gods, granting clerical abilities, but rather teachers, guiding them to a greater understanding of the basic workings of nature. This not only allows them to manipulate events more readily on Mystara, through indirect use of their followers(students?), but also increases the likelihood of furthering the immortal race, as they lead the clerics to a greater understanding of the powers that the immortals have access to. (Of course, clerical magic is only half of the weave that constitutes all magic- wizards manipulate the other half; not to mention that immortality is gained by learning to manipulate other aspects of nature, aside from just magic, but that's another story). ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 15:27:34 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] PC changing class At 22.14 19/03/96 -0500, David "Azure" Leland wrote: > > Personally, I think the whole idea of one keeping all (or even most) >of one's memories and dispositions but changing form AND class is very >problematic. If the person is "mentally" the same, then how can he/she lose >all of the class-specific abilities and suddenly gain new ones? Things like >THAC0, hit points, etc. are at least consistently above-normal-human in >either case, but otherwise this seems pretty inconsistent to me. > If you can have a Elvish-speaking shaman or non-shaman shadow elf >suddenly become a human that retains all previous memories but none of the >shadow elf abilities, has the sudden abilities of an X-th level thief, and >can't speak a human language, I'd say whatever you want to do about hit >points can't be criticized as illogical. At a point like that perhaps >fairness and balance is the only consideration. > I see your point about the elf retaining his previous memories, but gaining the special abilities of his new class/race. It's a bit inconsistent, but that's how the spell works (IMO, of course). The soul of the dead elf is made of Thought and Energy, in fact he retains his memories, languages, skills, XP (Thought) and his abilities (St,Wi...) (Energy). The body is made of Matter and Time, in fact he changed his physical appearance, hit points (Matter) and his age (Time). Now come the inconsistences: * How can he gain the special abilities of the new class (Thought) ? * Why was he reincarnated as a human if his full body was there, in front of the MU who cast the spell ? (Ok, sometimes the spells doesn't work correctly, but...) Then there is the problem of Thac0 and Saving Throws, to which sphere are they linked? To be honest there is also a greater inconcistency in the background, that I pointed out in my previous message but probably not clearly: why should a PC gain new hp everytime he gains a new level ? There isn't a clear reason, apart that this is the way the game works. >If the PC is adventuring >with other characters of a level significantly higher than level 1, maybe >you should let this character keep the higher hp and even saves and THAC0, >but have none of them improve with level increases until he reaches a Mystic >level one higher than his previous shadow elf level. This way he stands at >least a chance of surviving, and will at least gain Mystic AC bonuses and >abilities even if nothing else changes with each level. Yes, I can do this way, but not because he his adventuring with other characters of a level significantly higher than level 1, because this makes no difference IMO. It's not that because they're level 20 (for example) they encounter only Huge Dragons, whether if they were level 2 they would have met kobolds and goblins. The Huge Dragon is always there in his lair, if the 2nd level PC are fool enough to go there they can go, but I don't feel responsible for them losing their character. On the other way if the 20th level party wants to go orcs hunting, feel free to do it ...and not having much fun. Just my opinion. >Good luck! > I need it. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:32:37 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Mystara] Magic What is magic? What is the difference between clerical magic and Mage-magic (sorcery) Whatabout Immortal magic.. And elf-magic, and mercheant magic, and pyramid magic, and runes? Any comments? This could become an interesting debate.. Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: andmissinato@email.telpress.it (Missinato Andrea) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:49:26 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] PC changing class Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > [snip] > Obviously there's no reason for which he should start rolling again his hit > points from zero, but there's either no reason for which a PC should gain > new hp everytime he gains new levels (until 9th level). > What do you think ? > Well, I think changing career is a problem both in D&D and AD&D systems. However, if your Player want absolutely it you could to prevent him to gaining hp until he has reached previous level. Alternatively, if you use AD&D system, you'd use its bi-class rule. - -- Verova na pakao, i pakao ima. Hrvatian, the true tongue of Sigil. Andrea Missinato. ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:24:05 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas > At 12:27 AM 3/20/96 +0100, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Not only is it difficult, but I think that in many ways it makes > things less fun. I think I'm pretty good at keeping IC/OC > (in-character/out-of-character) knowledge separate, but regardless, I get a > healthy portion of my enjoyment on the rare occassions that I play instead > of DM from *not* knowing what's going on, from piecing things together with > fellow party members, detective-style. Similarly, I don't like to read the > last page of books before starting the beginning. Part of the goal my > players have in working for Rheddrian is figuring out what the Immortals are > up to, which ones, where, why, and ultimately, how the whole mess can be > stopped. > My campaign, which is interwoven with WotI, has been running for 3.5 > years so far and will end when I graduate at the end of this, my 4th year in > undergraduate college. At the end, I think I'll present the Immortal's > quarrel to my players as a sort of epi-prologue, so that they'll have the > pleasure of knowing how everything started, but not until they've had the > chance to figure out for themselves as much as they can. Well, in mine, the War serves only as a long running, backdrop- like "B"- plot. Plus, the enactment took place after War had been declared, and most of the PCs knew which Gods were directly responsible (Ixion, Asterius, Alphatia, Ilsundal, Vanya). HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 18:29:02 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hi everyone, Here's my outlook on this debate. Check out Gods, Demigods and Heroes (earliest TSR product on the subject). We've got a list of gods. They have stats and powers. They aren't omnipotent, and they can be killed. We've got everything from Conan's adversaries, that sit in their temples and eat virgins until Conan chops them up, to Greek and Norse gods, who are more like DND "immortals" than the Judeo-Christian God. What TSR's writers are trying to create, IMO, is a recreation of fantasy fiction/real-world legend and myth. These are gods, labelled as such, before the Moral Majority began to squawk. They aren't presented with the kind of power that the Judeo- Christian God is credited with, because the *source material* we're trying to recreate/relive didn't credit them with it! TSR is stuck with being "politically correct" these days, to their shame. But, again IMO, based on the above reasoning, these are gods. Period. DND or ADND. Prior mortal existance, or not. Worshippers, or not. Now, ADND was clear in the Player's Handbook and Deities and Demigods, that we're talking clerics' devotion, spell-granting, and divine ascension. By this time, DND was supposedly being directed at the youngest roleplayers. Combine that with bad press, and you have the "immortal" designation. Seems clear to me, and that's the way I run things. Shelby ------------------------------ From: "Oeystein H. Lund." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:47:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] PC changing class On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > To be honest there is also a greater inconcistency in the background, that I > pointed out in my previous message but probably not clearly: why should a PC > gain new hp everytime he gains a new level ? There isn't a clear reason, > apart that this is the way the game works. > Mm, I've always thought of it as the sort of training in taking blows that I experienced in my martial-arts training and general conditioning to be able to take the pain and function. When I was in the Rangers after basic training we routinely walked 20-mile ski patrols in wintertime. If I'd have tried that before going through basic training I'd have lain down to die halfway through ;) Of course, you get tougher on a heroic scale - that's a function of the genre ;) ------------------------------ From: "Oeystein H. Lund." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:16:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lahnkmar On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: > (I personally think that TSR needs a big suing, for taking Fritz Leiber's > Lankmar (although that was long ago), suing Gary Gygax because he made OBNitpick - TSR licenced the rights to produce Lahnkmar supplements from Fritz Leiber himself - I don't think that qualifies as ripping off ;) > Dangerous Journeys, and trying to monopolize the game market. They make Mmmm. TSR is in business to make money though, not to make nice. And I don't think they needed to sue DW over DJ anyway - and they had no plans to until DW made the moron move of calling it Dangerous Dimensions and saying things like "..will be the next (A)D&D... will break TSR.." in their press releases. I'd be irked too if I was working for or in charge of TSR. In any case, they settled out of court, TSR bought DJ, and are probably going to let it sink without a trace. OTHO - they might reprint it in a few years, just to defend their right to the tm, like they do with Dragonsomethingorther that they got from PSI. DW made another silly desicion by the way - they released the fantasy supplements/version of DJ first. Since EGG had deigned this as sort of a generic horror system to start with, it adapted clunkily to fantasy play. I rather liked the magic system by the way, even though it was a bit of a pain to figure out how many heka you had ;) Given some more time to develop, and releasing the horror verion first, and not challenging TSR by giving the line a name that sounded like their main line, I think DJ could have done well. But don't blame the mistakes of DW management on TSR ! > some really good stuff, but whoever's running it needs to know that other > people in other companies do too, and they have the right to do so. > IMO(that means in my opinion, right?)) > Oh sure, other companies have the right to produce games. Other companies haven't got the right to produce games that give the impression that TSR is responsible, neh ? I write some gamefiction (fluff) based on characters and events from my Mystaran campaigns. I wouldn't dream of trying to flog it to any company but TSR - as they'd be within their rights to sue me for every penny I'll earn until I'm 90 - given the nutty damage awards american courts routinely hands out ;) Just like I can only publish shadowrun fiction and supplements through FASA or a licencee of theirs - as long as I use elemnts of their character-copyrighted background. ------------------------------ From: JOEGERBER@delphi.com Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:58:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] PC changing class My view on reincarnation is that the physical abilities (SSStrenbgth, Dex, and COnon) change from the old form, and that wexplains why Fighters/Thieves may wind up as somthing self else. My only explaination for changing Int/Wis classes would be that the new form is unalble to channel magic forcexs. (OK, so its a gygazxium, so sue me...) Joe Gerber ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Mar 21 16:32:48 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 21 Mar 96 11:32 EST Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA04887 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:14:05 -0600 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA04838 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:05:30 -0600 Received: from bos1e.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1e.delphi.com [192.80.63.5]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA10980 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:59:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-6 #10880) id <01I2LH6Y25KW99HS0S@delphi.com> for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:58:50 -0500 (EST) From: JOEGERBER@delphi.com Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:58:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] PC changing class To: mystara-l@io.com Message-id: <01I2LH6Y2F8299HS0S@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"mystara-l@io.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Length: 368 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com My view on reincarnation is that the physical abilities (SSStrenbgth, Dex, and COnon) change from the old form, and that wexplains why Fighters/Thieves may wind up as somthing self else. My only explaination for changing Int/Wis classes would be that the new form is unalble to channel magic forcexs. (OK, so its a gygazxium, so sue me...) Joe Gerber ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:45:22 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Mystara] Norse Immortals I think it was Oystein Lund who mentioned that he had changed the nose Immortals (Odin, Thor, Frey, Freyja) to make them more like the original Norse gods of our earth. How? Did you change their aspects so that Odin would become the Immortal of berserkers rather than Thor? Did you add other Immortals like Tyr, Heimdall, and Njord (this could be another name for the spuming nooga) Did you make the two different families (Vanir and Aesir), mentioned in the relevant Gaz more important? Please elaborate. Im interested Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:17:27 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Mystara] Myths Do mystarans have Myths? How do they explain nature phenomenas? Maybe scientifically these days, but at least not in the past. How are the immortals linked to these myths? Do, or did people believe Ixion to be the sun? How about creation Myths, and the Origins of the species. Whats the Purpose of life? Do anyone answer this (with exception of al-Kalim :)) These things seem to have been given little though in earlier game products.. What do you think? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: andmissinato@email.telpress.it (Missinato Andrea) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:41:54 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] List of Lists v4.16 He all. This appeared on Planescape List on 29/2/96, posted by Alistair G. Lowe-Norris. I think it can be useful for Mystara-List users too, so I post here. Bye. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Below is the new edition of the RPG List of Lists. Sorry if you get this more than once, it is being cross-posted to a number of rpg lists. Please distribute fully to any other lists or persons who would like it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- T h e L i s t o f L i s t s : Roleplaying Related Lists, version 4.16, 29th-February-1996 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Background ========== In addition to rec.games.frp.*, there are a number of mailing lists and digests (or newsletters) on the net which may be of interest to role-playing enthusiasts. There is also an RPG web page where the most recent copy of this list can be found: http://www.mcs.com/~duff/rpg/list_of_lists.html Internet Tutorials can be found at: http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/roadmap.html The difference between a mailing list and a digest is that a digest is collected, edited, and distributed by an editor, while a mailing list simply forwards all incoming mail to a list of subscribers. 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If you need any help with a particular list, give me a shout. Thanks go to Boudewijn Wayers, the originator of this list for his hard work and diligence in maintaining this list of rpg-related lists. (c) Alistair G. Lowe-Norris, agl1@le.ac.uk - -- Verova na pakao, i pakao ima. Hrvatian, the true tongue of Sigil. Andrea Missinato. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #91 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #92 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, 26 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 092 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Melik Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 17:02 PST Subject: [Mystara] Can you identify these products? When I was looking around the 'net, I saw 2515 The Mighty Argos, and 2516 The Iron Ring mentioned. These are supposedly 2nd ed Mystara products, adventures or something. I have seen the '95 catalog many times, but never saw these in the Mystara section. Does anyone know what the heck they are? David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: Jason Zavoda Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:04:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Can you identify these products? Hello There is also an item called Orcs Head that I ordered awhile back as well as the Iron Ring, both were part of the CD supplements that TSR was coming out with last year but both were cancelled. I 'm not sure about the Mighty Argos item but I assume its from the same line. Did any of these things actually see print? Jason Zavoda On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: > When I was looking around the 'net, I saw 2515 The Mighty Argos, and 2516 > The Iron Ring mentioned. These are supposedly 2nd ed Mystara products, > adventures or something. I have seen the '95 catalog many times, but never > saw these in the Mystara section. Does anyone know what the heck they are? > > David Melik > darwin@gp.magick.net > > ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 19:21 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Can you identify these products? I know that the Orc's Head book or boxed set is coming out this year. Maybe the other two are Savage Coast things too... David Melik darwin@g.magick.net At 09:04 PM 3/23/96 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello > There is also an item called Orcs Head that I ordered awhile back >as well as the Iron Ring, both were part of the CD supplements that TSR >was coming out with last year but both were cancelled. I 'm not sure >about the Mighty Argos item but I assume its from the same line. Did >any of these things actually see print? > > Jason Zavoda > >On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: > >> When I was looking around the 'net, I saw 2515 The Mighty Argos, and 2516 >> The Iron Ring mentioned. These are supposedly 2nd ed Mystara products, >> adventures or something. I have seen the '95 catalog many times, but never >> saw these in the Mystara section. Does anyone know what the heck they are? >> >> David Melik >> darwin@gp.magick.net >> >> > > ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:48:42 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Can you identify these products? On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: > I know that the Orc's Head book or boxed set is coming out this year. Maybe > the other two are Savage Coast things too... > > David Melik > darwin@g.magick.net > > At 09:04 PM 3/23/96 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Hello > > There is also an item called Orcs Head that I ordered awhile back > >as well as the Iron Ring, both were part of the CD supplements that TSR > >was coming out with last year but both were cancelled. I 'm not sure > >about the Mighty Argos item but I assume its from the same line. Did > >any of these things actually see print? > > > > Jason Zavoda > > > >On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: > > > >> When I was looking around the 'net, I saw 2515 The Mighty Argos, and 2516 > >> The Iron Ring mentioned. These are supposedly 2nd ed Mystara products, > >> adventures or something. I have seen the '95 catalog many times, but never > >> saw these in the Mystara section. Does anyone know what the heck they are? > >> > >> David Melik > >> darwin@gp.magick.net > >> > >> > > > > > I dont know but I doubt that these others are Savage Coast Supplements. The Iron Ring is the name of a Karameikan Thieves organization, so my guess is that this is a Karameikan adventure. As for Argos....who knows? But since it seems to be a Karameikan advendure, it will probably never be published..... However, the Iron ring has had a bad time since the fall of the Black Eagle, Perhaps it is time for the organization to rise again.. anyone wanna write something on this subject? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: esp109@psu.edu (Eduardo Polanco) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:18:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Can you identify these products? At 07:21 PM 3/23/96 PST, mystara-l@io.com wrote: >I know that the Orc's Head book or boxed set is coming out this year. Maybe >the other two are Savage Coast things too... > >David Melik >darwin@g.magick.net > >At 09:04 PM 3/23/96 -0500, you wrote: >> >>Hello >> There is also an item called Orcs Head that I ordered awhile back >>as well as the Iron Ring, both were part of the CD supplements that TSR >>was coming out with last year but both were cancelled. I 'm not sure >>about the Mighty Argos item but I assume its from the same line. Did >>any of these things actually see print? >> >> Jason Zavoda >> >>On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: >> >>> When I was looking around the 'net, I saw 2515 The Mighty Argos, and 2516 >>> The Iron Ring mentioned. These are supposedly 2nd ed Mystara products, >>> adventures or something. I have seen the '95 catalog many times, but never >>> saw these in the Mystara section. Does anyone know what the heck they are? >>> >>> David Melik >>> darwin@gp.magick.net >>> The Mighty Argos and The Iron Ring were supposed to be supplements for Karameikos. The Iron Ring is one of the thieves' guilds in Karameikos. Argos is the legendary green dragon that inhabits the depths of Dymrak Forest. He's mentioned in the Karameikos boxed set on page 123 and in a Dragon magazine article on the dragons of Mystara. I think it was in issue 170 but I'm not sure. I don't know if any of these products will see print, but I'm not very optimistic. Ed Polanco esp109@psu.edu esp109@psuvm.psu.edu - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------------- "Get busy living or get busy dying." "To see what is right and not to do it is cowardice." -Andy Dufrain, Shawshank Redemption "A superior man in dealing with the world is not for or against anything. He follows righteousness as "Every man dies, but not every man really lives." the standard." -William Wallace, Braveheart - -Confucius ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 00:32:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] FAQ and File Index Now On the Web Mystarans, I finally broke down and started to learn HTML so I can set up my own web page. And this is good news for the list: I have set up pages with the majordomo-accessible file index and the FAQ. The URL to reach these is... http://www.io.com/~oryon/ I just started at this, so give me a break. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 23:53 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Can you identify these products? At 12:18 PM 3/24/96 -0500, you wrote: >At 07:21 PM 3/23/96 PST, mystara-l@io.com wrote: >>I know that the Orc's Head book or boxed set is coming out this year. Maybe >>the other two are Savage Coast things too... >> >>David Melik >>darwin@g.magick.net >> >>At 09:04 PM 3/23/96 -0500, you wrote: >>> >>>Hello >>> There is also an item called Orcs Head that I ordered awhile back >>>as well as the Iron Ring, both were part of the CD supplements that TSR >>>was coming out with last year but both were cancelled. I 'm not sure >>>about the Mighty Argos item but I assume its from the same line. Did >>>any of these things actually see print? >>> >>> Jason Zavoda >>> >>>On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: >>> >>>> When I was looking around the 'net, I saw 2515 The Mighty Argos, and 2516 >>>> The Iron Ring mentioned. These are supposedly 2nd ed Mystara products, >>>> adventures or something. I have seen the '95 catalog many times, but never >>>> saw these in the Mystara section. Does anyone know what the heck they are? >>>> >>>> David Melik >>>> darwin@gp.magick.net >>>> > The Mighty Argos and The Iron Ring were supposed to be supplements >for Karameikos. The Iron Ring is one of the thieves' guilds in Karameikos. >Argos is the legendary green dragon that inhabits the depths of Dymrak >Forest. He's mentioned in the Karameikos boxed set on page 123 and in a >Dragon magazine article on the dragons of Mystara. I think it was in issue >170 but I'm not sure. I don't know if any of these products will see print, >but I'm not very optimistic. Yes, neither am I it's just too bad that TSR changed into T$R, you know. They care about making money from stuff, that's all. They won't just print less of them even though there are many Mystara fans like us. How lame. :( David Melik ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 04:02:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mystara] That Damn TSR... On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: > Yes, neither am I it's just too bad that TSR changed into T$R, you know. > They care about making money from stuff, that's all. They won't just print > less of them even though there are many Mystara fans like us. How lame. :( I am not raging, ranting, or trying to force my opinion down anyone's throat, but I thought I would voice my opinion on what TSR has become... I have been playing RPG's for over 14 years now. I started with AD&D, and loved it. As time went on, and I got more into the game I and my brother bought a lot of stuff for it. But, back then, if a person bought "a lot of stuff" for AD&D they pretty much had it all. TSR was a small company, and products trickled slowly into the stores. I can remember being excited when a single module was released, since it was a rarity. I can remember damn near rupturing my spleen when Unearthed Arcana came out. Now, 14 years later, at least a dozen AD&D products come out per month. Not all are good, not all are bad. Not all are things I want. And I like it a whole helluva lot more the way it is now than it was then. It seems that people often say "TSR" like it is some sort of monolithic entity; a mass mind whose drones churn out low-grade products like bees do honey, whose only goal is to make money. But I don't see it that way. TSR is now a corproation, run by suits, not gamers. When they plan what products are going to be made they do so with markey share in mind. They have little concern with the little guy, like you and me. Even if we all got a dozen of our friends to boycott TSR, it wouldn't put a dent into their sales, and they know that. That is why they are unconcerned with the hatred that things like their net.policy foster. It won't matter much, in the long run. But their is a another side to TSR: the authors and designers who put their hearts and souls into the stuff they write. They are gamers who are interested in putting out a good product that others will enjoy. Many of them are on the net now, and, despite the constant attacks, try to be helpful, answering questions and taking part in the gamer "community". As a corporation TSR needs to make money, so they put out a lot of stuff. Some of it is crap; I know, I have bought some of it. But, IMHO, they still put out some damn good stuff, too. Other than Mystara I enjoy a variety of TSR settings, and I will continue to buy products for them as long as I think they are good. If anyone thinks that TSR only puts out low quality crap these days I recommend they take a look at the new book Faiths & Avatars. I am not recommending you purchase it or anything. I know most people on this list aren't into the Forgotten Realms. Just take a look. This book is 192 pages and filled with dense, small marginned, small font text. It is jam packed with information, and is very well written. The cost? $20, which is a bargain at today's industry prices. Considering the amount of info it is cheaper than many comparable products from other companies. Sometimes I get mad at what TSR has become. But sometimes I sit around and reminisce on how it used to be, with one new module every other month. As long as at least one or two of the products TSR puts out a month are good, I am happy. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do I know what do I know? (I), never look back never look back (no). Stick it in me stick it in me (I), what do I see what do I see? (now)" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (A Higher Form of) Killing ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 21:08:56 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Can you identify these products? At 17.48 24/03/96 +0200, Haavard Faanes wrote: > >However, the Iron ring has had a bad time since the fall of the Black >Eagle, Perhaps it is time for the organization to rise again.. >anyone wanna write something on this subject? > Something on the Iron Ring (the organization, not the product) is written in Dragon 206, where the new Fort Doom (after the fall of the Black Eagle) is described. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: (by way of David Melik ) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 14:52 PST Subject: [Mystara] mail failed, returning to sender Has anyone ever used the ElfQuest stories in D&D/Mystara? I have, since it's one of my favorite comic series and fantasy worlds. I use a slight variation of the elves as race on my own OD&D world (and on Mystara if a player wants it). The EQ rpg is very helpful and inspiring. Would anyone like to talk about it? David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net I like listening to my "bard-in-a-box" :) (this is my first signature thingy by the way) ------------------------------ From: (by way of David Melik ) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 14:52 PST Subject: [Mystara] Elfquest, D&D, Mystara Has anyone ever used the ElfQuest stories in D&D/Mystara? I have, since it's one of my favorite comic series and fantasy worlds. I use a slight variation of the elves as race on my own OD&D world (and on Mystara if a player wants it). The EQ rpg is very helpful and inspiring. Would anyone like to talk about it? David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net I like listening to my "bard-in-a-box" :) (this is my first signature thingy by the way) Oops, I put the wrong address in last time, and it returned so I forwarded, and forgot to change the subject, so sorry. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 14:47 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Ideas Many people were discussing immortals vs. gods. Here's what I think: Immortals are gods, TSR just didn't want to offend religious fanatics, who often think it's a religion, not a game, and of course, their religion must be right, and others must be cults... (By the way how do you make a face(this sort :) ) of a crazy person? I think one is in order here... :) As I have said in my reply to the mythology posting, many of the immortals are in fact dieties from earth. Some "came out of the chaos", and that's hard to explain how it happened, but who cares. That's as far back as you really need to go for campaign purposes. Can you explain the Greek, Scandinavian, or Christian creation stories(fine I won't call them myths in case one is your religion) either, how god(s) just appeared? I didn't think so. It's too cosmic or something for mortals to comprehend. Many immortals were once mortals, yes, but there are myths of earth of mortals ascending to divinity, you know. I use immortal to mean not dying from natural causes. I use the word god to mean a being of awesome power. There are immortals in earth myths that just didn't die, but had not cosmic powers. Ther are gods in earth myths that were mortal, and had to eat golden apples, or nectar and/or ambrosia for immortality. And there were some that were both immortal and gods. Different versions of Greek and Scandinavian gods were mortal or immortal. Of course, there are famous gods that are immortal, like Jehovah, Allah, Yahweh, but they would probably be classified far above old ones, right at the top, because of their magnificient power. Because I like to have it how it is on earth, this is how I play it on Mystara. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net Jaggar's transforming Gargantiod is cool. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 14:46 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] That Damn TSR... At 04:02 AM 3/26/96 -0800, Leroy van Camp wrote: > > >On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: > >> Yes, neither am I it's just too bad that TSR changed into T$R, you know. >> They care about making money from stuff, that's all. They won't just print >> less of them even though there are many Mystara fans like us. How lame. :( > > I am not raging, ranting, or trying to force my opinion down anyone's >throat, but I thought I would voice my opinion on what TSR has become... > Well of course, and neither am I, so don't flame me anybody... :) > I have been playing RPG's for over 14 years now. I started with >AD&D, and loved it. > As time went on, and I got more into the game I and my brother bought a >lot of stuff for it. But, back then, if a person bought "a lot of stuff" for >AD&D they pretty much had it all. TSR was a small company, and products >trickled slowly into the stores. I can remember being excited when a single >module was released, since it was a rarity. I can remember damn near >rupturing my spleen when Unearthed Arcana came out. > Now, 14 years later, at least a dozen AD&D products come out per month. >Not all are good, not all are bad. Not all are things I want. > And I like it a whole helluva lot more the way it is now than it was >then. I barely remember that... When I started rpging, they were in the middle or the end of the change I believe, in 1990. Am I right, or did it happen earlier? I sure liked TSR better then. > It seems that people often say "TSR" like it is some sort of monolithic >entity; a mass mind whose drones churn out low-grade products like bees do >honey, whose only goal is to make money. > But I don't see it that way. > TSR is now a corproation, run by suits, not gamers. When they plan what >products are going to be made they do so with markey share in mind. They >have little concern with the little guy, like you and me. Even if we all got >a dozen of our friends to boycott TSR, it wouldn't put a dent into their >sales, and they know that. That is why they are unconcerned with the hatred >that things like their net.policy foster. It won't matter much, in the long >run. I think that's the problem with TSR. They should be run by gamers since it's a game company, but they're not. I wonder what happened. They used to be run by gamers like you and me, but I guess some of them let their greed control them, turning into the "suits" or letting them take over. It think it really is sad. The suits probably don't care about neither us gamers who aren't a part of the corporation, nor the ones who are who are, and write the material, putting their hearts and souls into it. The gamers at TSR are just like their customers in that way, when we make adventures or countries for our own campaigns or worlds. The suits screwed over both the gamers that now work for them, and those who don't, in my opinion. (And I do think those droll clothes with the pointless neckties look silly, but that's not really important.) This is stupid and maybe even evil. It disgusts me that greedy people like that are messing up things. > But their is a another side to TSR: the authors and designers who put >their hearts and souls into the stuff they write. They are gamers who are >interested in putting out a good product that others will enjoy. Many of >them are on the net now, and, despite the constant attacks, try to be >helpful, answering questions and taking part in the gamer "community". Yes, and that's the good part of TSR. I think it should be the only part, again. Thanks to all the authors like this, and I know there's one or two on the list here. Keep up the good work, and maybe a true gamer will run TSR once again one day... :) > As a corporation TSR needs to make money, so they put out a lot of stuff. >Some of it is crap; I know, I have bought some of it. But, IMHO, they still >put out some damn good stuff, too. Other than Mystara I enjoy a variety of >TSR settings, and I will continue to buy products for them as long as I think >they are good. > If anyone thinks that TSR only puts out low quality crap these days I >recommend they take a look at the new book Faiths & Avatars. I am not >recommending you purchase it or anything. I know most people on this >list aren't into the Forgotten Realms. Just take a look. > This book is 192 pages and filled with dense, small marginned, small font >text. It is jam packed with information, and is very well written. The cost? >$20, which is a bargain at today's industry prices. Considering the amount >of info it is cheaper than many comparable products from other companies. > Sometimes I get mad at what TSR has become. But sometimes I sit around >and reminisce on how it used to be, with one new module every other month. >As long as at least one or two of the products TSR puts out a month are good, >I am happy. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 14:47 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Myths At 07:17 PM 3/21/96 +0100, Haavard Faanes wrote: >Do mystarans have Myths? But of course they have myths! What's a fantasy world without myths?(I guess you don't have myths if you don't want them, but I think myths are highly appropriate for a fantasy world, really.) >How do they explain nature phenomenas? >Maybe scientifically these days, but at least not in the past. >How are the immortals linked to these myths? Do, or did people believe >Ixion to be the sun? >How about creation Myths, and the Origins of the species. >Whats the Purpose of life? Do anyone answer this (with exception of >al-Kalim :)) > >These things seem to have been given little though in earlier game >products.. >What do you think? > >Haavard Faanes > > > Ah, mythology, I do love mythology a lot. I'm glad someone made a posting about it. :) Well, many, many of the immortals of Mystara are in fact deities from earth. For example Frey, Freyja, Thanatos, Djaea(Gaea spelled different perchance), Hel, Loki, Nyx, Orcus, Thor, Odin, Terra(maybe I'm not sure), Bemarris(Ares), Demogorgon(another maybe), Kythria(Aphrodite), Lokena(Athena), Patura(Hera), Sinbad(although he was actually a mortal in The 1,001 Nights, but still from earth, legendary, could have achieved immortality for game purposes), Taroyas(Zeus), Turmis(Hermes), Tyche(another maybe), Wayland(another maybe), and Kallala of the Seven Veils (another maybe, I remember hearing about seven veils in some earth mythology). I'm sure there are others. You can see that some that weren't mentioned are influenced by earth mythology, like the Aztec or Mayan mythos for example, like certain Hollow world deities. Also see Gods, Demigods, & Heroes for more examples. Now, with so many deities from Greek and Scandinavian mythology, and others less obvious, you can use Greek and Scandinavian myths for Mystara if you like them. I do. Perhaps Mystara is a world in Midgard, one of the 9 worlds of the world-ash Yggdrasil. The others I have heard are Asgard(home of the Aesir gods), Vanaheim(home of the Vanir gods), Jotunheim(home of the jotuns or frost giants), Niflheim(realm of the dead), Musphellheim(home of the fire demons), Alfheim(home of the loisalfar, or light elves(faeries), Darkalfheim(home of the dockalfar or dark elves(which could be evil creatures of faerie, or the dwarves, it's not clear), and Gimle(plane of high heaven). Some of these places exist as planes of the Multiverse, already, so it's not that hard to do. And you could use Greek places too, like Olympus, Tarterus, Hades, Elysium, etc.. The way I play it is that first there was chaos, and so on, using both the Greek and Scandinavian creation myths, sayin they happened in different areas of the chaos for example, and they didn't mess with each other. The Scandinavian one goes, there was a huge frost giant named Ymir/Gmir, etc. who was frozen in a big block of ice. There was something to do with a cow, and Odin, Vili, and Ve(Odin's 2 brothers) came eventually(I forgot how), slew Gmir, and fashioned the heavens from his skull, and other areas with other parts. The Greek one goes something like this: Out of the chaos came Nox(Nyx on Mystara) and a great serpent, and they had kids who were the titans and Cronos or maybe it was Uranus, and Gaea or maybe it was Rhea. Then Cronos/Uranus and Rhea/Gaea had the other 2 that weren't there yet. Then these 2 had the major deities, Zeus, Posiedon, Hades, Hera, etc.. And they took certain realms to rule and it goes on. I know that the way I stated both of these may be wrong, so do not take my word for it right now. Find them in a library, or if you can't I'll look 'em up for you, just ask, okay. The 9 worlds of Yggdrasil are correct as far as I can tell as I have them memorized. Valhalla is in fact, in Asgard, its Odin's hall, meaning "hall of the slain" val=slain, halla=hall, Gladsheim, Odin's golden palace, is not a plane either, it's his palace in Asgard. I'm just stating it how it is in earth mythology. Of course, if you like it a different way, use it that way. I just like to use it the way it is on earth, and expect lots of other people do. Check out Bullfinch's Mythology and any version of the Larouse Encyclopedia of Mythology for inspiration/resources. They are really great. Lets see, for explaining nature, there are nature deities, like Djaea and Terra, one could have started the seasons, and one could e related to other nature things. There is Ixion the Sun-Prince. I wonder if someone "pulls the sun across the sky", like on earth. Perhaps an avatar of Ixion, or his true form even. I think so. :) Thanatos is death, Nyx is night, look at all the patron of whatevers in the earth dieties, and you will see that in earth mythology these are detailed. Oh, I just had a great idea, an awesome, epic idea. The myths of earth using these dieties could make very good immortal adventures or be used as inspiration, like the ones occuring in other planes. Thor's visit to Jotunheim, for example, Greek gods going down in mortal identity to meddle, Arachne comes to mind, and there was much meddling in the labors of Hercules/Herakles. Ragnarok would make an excellent end to an immortal campaign. Having the pc's participating in the final battle against hordes of jotuns, creatures of Loki and Hel. Wow, this is giving me lots of ideas. I've been writing for a long time, so that's all for now, except for one last thing. I have found that it is good to find the sources of game products and read them, mythology for the immortal stuff, things about castles and medieval life obviously, etc.. If anyone ever wants me to find out about a myth for them, go ahead and ask, I'd be happy to. :) David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #92 **************************** mystara-digest Saturday, 30 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 093 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Johnson Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:45:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elfquest, D&D, Mystara On Tue, 26 Mar 1996 MAILER-DAEMON@gp.magick.net wrote: > Has anyone ever used the ElfQuest stories in D&D/Mystara? I have, since > it's one of my favorite comic series and fantasy worlds. I use a slight > variation of the elves as race on my own OD&D world (and on Mystara if a > player wants it). The EQ rpg is very helpful and inspiring. Would anyone > like to talk about it? Actually, if you take a look at the Alfheim Gazetteer, it's pretty obvious that one of the tribes is rather heavily based on ElfQuest, at least as far as the personalities go - the leader has an unusual magical sword, a stargazing best friend, and a Belcadiz elf lifemate (the Belcadiz are the Glantrian elves with a rather Spanish style to their culture) who's a healer known as 'Coolhands.' The Gazetteer also introduces a concept rather like soul names, and there's references to the Cutter-analog defeating a creature from a Bad Magic Point... Madcoil, anyone? - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 00:01 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elfquest, D&D, Mystara At 11:45 PM 3/26/96 -0600, Scott johnson wrote: > > >On Tue, 26 Mar 1996 david melik wrote: > >> Has anyone ever used the ElfQuest stories in D&D/Mystara? I have, since >> it's one of my favorite comic series and fantasy worlds. I use a slight >> variation of the elves as race on my own OD&D world (and on Mystara if a >> player wants it). The EQ rpg is very helpful and inspiring. Would anyone >> like to talk about it? > >Actually, if you take a look at the Alfheim Gazetteer, it's pretty >obvious that one of the tribes is rather heavily based on ElfQuest, at >least as far as the personalities go - the leader has an unusual magical >sword, a stargazing best friend, and a Belcadiz elf lifemate (the >Belcadiz are the Glantrian elves with a rather Spanish style to their >culture) who's a healer known as 'Coolhands.' The Gazetteer also >introduces a concept rather like soul names, and there's references to >the Cutter-analog defeating a creature from a Bad Magic Point... >Madcoil, anyone? > That is very interesting. I don't have that gazeteer yet though, I certainly will eventually. Hmmm... and the shadow elves underground, fighting the forest elves, reminds me of the trolls. I meant has anyone directly used it in their own campaign, I guess you know that though... David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:02:59 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] That Damn TSR... Concerning TSR: Okay, im not saying how TSR should be run. TSR changed Mystara into AD&D and abandoned the OD&D game. They hoped that this would be a success. Apparently they were wrong. Now they have abandoned the setting too, though we still have products from the Red Steel campaign, which is set on the same planet. We on this list are the ones who control Mystara now. We decide how the future of this world. However, will Mystara die with us? I dont know how many people who are on this list, but this isnt the largest mailinglist in the world. Can we recruit more people? how? Will the Red Steel fans find this mailinglist? (they may not even know Red steel is part of Mystara) I think we need more people on the list. I am at IRC (the internet relay chat) from time to time, but most people i speak to (roleplayers) havet heard much of the setting (if at all) WWW. We have several pages on web these days (visited Leroys page the other day), but i think we should put more on them. Present the world to newcomers... What do you think? Haavard Faanes. ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:15:17 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elfquest, D&D, Mystara On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, David Melik wrote: > At 11:45 PM 3/26/96 -0600, Scott johnson wrote: > > > > > >On Tue, 26 Mar 1996 david melik wrote: > > > >> Has anyone ever used the ElfQuest stories in D&D/Mystara? I have, since > >> it's one of my favorite comic series and fantasy worlds. I use a slight > >> variation of the elves as race on my own OD&D world (and on Mystara if a > >> player wants it). The EQ rpg is very helpful and inspiring. Would anyone > >> like to talk about it? > > > >Actually, if you take a look at the Alfheim Gazetteer, it's pretty > >obvious that one of the tribes is rather heavily based on ElfQuest, at > >least as far as the personalities go - the leader has an unusual magical > >sword, a stargazing best friend, and a Belcadiz elf lifemate (the > >Belcadiz are the Glantrian elves with a rather Spanish style to their > >culture) who's a healer known as 'Coolhands.' The Gazetteer also > >introduces a concept rather like soul names, and there's references to > >the Cutter-analog defeating a creature from a Bad Magic Point... > >Madcoil, anyone? > > > That is very interesting. I don't have that gazeteer yet though, I > certainly will eventually. Hmmm... and the shadow elves underground, > fighting the forest elves, reminds me of the trolls. I meant has anyone > directly used it in their own campaign, I guess you know that though... > > David Melik > darwin@gp.magick.net > I also love the Elfquest comics. In the early days of the D&D world, i pondered with the idea of placing EQ cultures on the southern continent :) Ive also noticed the similarities with EQ in the Alfheim GAZ... ESP is an elfspell :) But shadowelves and Trolls? both would feel insulted! Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:44:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] That Damn TSR... > >What do you think? > I like it, I'm all for it, and I'd gladly help any way possible. But (and there's always a but), TSR wouldn't let it happen. I'm not whining, or calling them names. I've just read their online policy (twice) about what they will/won't allow and they won't allow reproductions of TSR products to be posted on any site. (Even the approved ones like mpgn.) This means we couldn't use any maps, NPC stats, spell descriptions, etc. Basically, the only way it'll work is if we rebuild it all from scratch. (Then it's hardly Mystara is it?) Shrug, just accept the fact that they're shooting themselves in the foot and go on to lead a productive, happy lifestyle. Unless we can get some kind of special permission to create this "Mystara Net" we'll be hounded until we're too annoyed to care (and some of us are there already.) But (there it is again) I think it's a great idea and if somehow we get that permission, I'd love to help. - -Bob btw While I have the floor...loved your note Leroy. An excellent point more people should remember. (I think I'll go read my copy of Unearthed Arcania again tonight for Nostalgia.) :-) - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:11:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] That Damn TSR... On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Concerning TSR: > Okay, im not saying how TSR should be run. TSR changed Mystara into AD&D > and abandoned the OD&D game. They hoped that this would be a success. > Apparently they were wrong. Now they have abandoned the setting too, > though we still have products from the Red Steel campaign, which is set > on the same planet. Just for the record, Red Steel has also been dropped. The various Red Steel products, which were going to be released under something called the "Odessey" line will not be sold. Rather, they will be "online exclusive" to AOL, like the Greyhawk supplement Ivid the Undying. Eventually, though, they will probably show up on MPGN. (I think Ivid has). For those who might be impatient this might be a good reason to use those ten free hours you can get by using one of those dozen AOL starter disks I am sure everyone has. > We on this list are the ones who control Mystara now. We decide how the > future of this world. However, will Mystara die with us? I dont know how > many people who are on this list, but this isnt the largest mailinglist > in the world. Can we recruit more people? how? True, Mystara is now in our hands. But I wish they had at least put out the new Gazetteers they were talking about (such as Heldann). Unfortunately this reminds me of the Spelljammer list. It is virtually dead now. Recruiting people at this point is a bit hard. Although there is a constant influx of people onto the net, we have sort of plateued. Most of the people who are fans are probably on here. At least those who we can reach. For example, if a person doesn't have access to Usenet news then they are a lot less likely to know about us, since it is a major source of info on lists such as this one. Also, one needs to remember that Mystara was not nearly as popular as some of the other settings, such as the Realms. So we are never going to get as many people as the lists for those. Most people connect Mystara to either... a) Those lame boxed sets and their silly CD's, or... b) The OD&D game, which many consider a lesser version of AD&D, or as more "childish." And finally, we have more people on this list than you might think. It's just that they are lurkers, not contributing anything. Anyone can see the list of subscribers. Just send e-mail to majordomo@io.com with "who mystara-l" or "who mystara-digest" in the body. > Will the Red Steel fans find this mailinglist? (they may not even know > Red steel is part of Mystara) A very good point. I think I will add something on this to the list FAQ. > I think we need more people on the list. I am at IRC (the internet relay > chat) from time to time, but most people i speak to (roleplayers) havet > heard much of the setting (if at all) I, too, have been known to hang out on IRC at times, and I have made several attempts at drumming up some interest, but always for naught. > WWW. We have several pages on web these days (visited Leroys page the > other day), but i think we should put more on them. Present the world to > newcomers... Yes, a wider presence on the web would help, but with TSR's silly inquisition, this isn't easy. And my web page certainly isn't much. And, to be honest, it will probably never really be a Mystara site. I will have more info on the list, but little on Mystara itself. It just isn't worth the hassles I will probably end up facing, especially when the companies of the other games I am into have no problem with such pages. They seem to understand that it means little to them, and is actually a form of free advertising. > What do you think? I think your heart is in the right place, and I do think a bit more can be done. But in all, I don't think we will see much growth. What I think really needs to be done is more participation, more development of ideas, more new information shared. But this isn't easy; a lot of people on the list are busy with work, school, life. Cthulhu knows I would be a hypocrite if I lambasted anyone for not participating, since I, myself, don't do as much as I should (I am just too busy lately). Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Cthulhu, eh? I'll try and backstab him" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 15:16 PST Subject: Re: [Mystara] That Damn TSR... At 06:02 PM 3/27/96 +0200, you wrote: >Concerning TSR: >Okay, im not saying how TSR should be run. TSR changed Mystara into AD&D >and abandoned the OD&D game. They hoped that this would be a success. >Apparently they were wrong. Now they have abandoned the setting too, >though we still have products from the Red Steel campaign, which is set >on the same planet. > >We on this list are the ones who control Mystara now. We decide how the >future of this world. However, will Mystara die with us? I dont know how >many people who are on this list, but this isnt the largest mailinglist >in the world. Can we recruit more people? how? >Will the Red Steel fans find this mailinglist? (they may not even know >Red steel is part of Mystara) > >I think we need more people on the list. I am at IRC (the internet relay >chat) from time to time, but most people i speak to (roleplayers) havet >heard much of the setting (if at all) > >WWW. We have several pages on web these days (visited Leroys page the >other day), but i think we should put more on them. Present the world to >newcomers... > >What do you think? > >Haavard Faanes. > > > > I think you are definitely right. Maybe Leroy should add Red Steel AD&D into the page he made so when people search they find it... just an idea ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 14:35:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Immortal Corenlius Cornelius Sphere:Thought Rank:Novice Temporal Alignment Neutral Patron of Travelers Cornelius was never a young man to let life have its way with him. He held his future in his hands and never gave it up. He learned magic so as to find joy in his youth, as well as power and novelty. he ran away from home at 15 and became a traveling mage, joining a circus to see sights and places and meet new people. He left the circus when he found how poorly some of the performers were treated, and that most werent volunteers. One, a dwarf named Derrick , whom he had befriended was among those forced into the circus and prevented from leaving. Upon finding out this truth, Cornelius led a break with several of the others, using his magic to free them from their bonds. They escaped into the hills, but only a few made it to the next city safely and alive. Derrick and Cornelius went off on their own in the new city they arrived at, and soon left via sea. Arriving in Norworld, they petitioned the new king, Ericall, for fiefs but were laughed down due to their weak skills. The two then decided to strike off on their own and travel the country. Meeting up with several other travelers, they became rather powerful and well-known in freeing up this wilderness new country for travelers. Cornelius simply enjoyed seeing new lands in general more than clearing them for others, but he was glad others would get to see the same lands, even if they were changed for worse by civilization. After some time they had reached much fame and Ericall practically begged for them to accept fiefs. Cornelius refused and left his friends to travel the world further. He withdrew from his identity as a famed mage so as to travel incognito and get a better glimpse at the real world. Hre eventually rejoined his companions from old on a task to save the world and in the meantime view other worlds. Naturally, he accepted this task. Succeeding in it, he was given immortal status by the deitys of Neutrality, who were proud of his position of not caring about power, merely novelty. From ???@??? Mon Apr 01 10:19:20 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA24546; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:21:47 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19108 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 21:07:21 -0600 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 21:07:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199603310307.VAA19108@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #93 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 31623 He has contineud this policy and remains a strong patron of those who care not for power, rather survival or simialr lowly matters. He also has become a patron of travelers and been readily accepted into many pantheons that lack a deity of that function. He is willing to use his immortal powers to defend from a bandit ambush-by trying to detour the traeverls or merchants and similr tactics. He is not one to intervene in any major way unless inoocents awill be slaughtered in large numbers. He is also not trying to become a major immortal in any way. Symbol:A walking stick Allies:No one really. Enemies:Only those who are patrons of thieves, and seek to harm innocent ttravelers Followers:Cornelius is already followed by several wanderers and merchants and a nomad tribe has even adopted him as their patron. He can give his clerics limited power but does not favor them more than his other followers much. he does not plan to try to gain followers, they just seem to join his followings quickly. He is not the sole patron though of anyone, even his clerics. Mortal Level Mage-27 HD 20 A-Magic 50% THAC0 imoortal 5 Aura affects 1, save at -1 Power Points 500 HP Mortal 43 HP immortal 100 AC Mortal -10 AC immortal 0 STR 10 INT 10 WIS 15 DEX 11 CON 9 CHR 14 (same in both forms) Greater Talent 36 Lesser Talent 33 Walk 150' Run 300' GForm 720' Fly 150'? Ht 5'7" as mortal, 5'6" as immortal Wt 120# Mortal Desc: Non-descript, dressed in brown and carrying a walking stick. His face is worn and he looks older than his 42 years. Armor Mortal Ring of Prot+4,Ring of Prot+4, Amulet of prot+3,Robe of Protection +3,Shamans Mantle from M3-note you should adjust this stuff for your world as this character developed from the ODND modules and owns unique itmes, but I figure immortals can make anything so if you really think its important, you can use that as a cop-out :> Weapon Dagger+5 Yes, it's lame, but most of these immortals will be. Sue me. or better yet, improve them and change them to fit yuor needs. I still have about 25/30 of them left BTW Much gooder, Swoop. Much muchmore gooder.-Grimlock ------------------------------ From: Herve MUSSEAU Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 10:06:21 MET Subject: [Mystara] constitution of the NACE This is intended as a kind of constition for the New Alphatian Empire after Zandor's deposition. Events for the Alphatian Empire and the Alatians is in preparation. Feel free to react, critic, or partipate. BTW, it is post-WotI :) New Alphatian Confederated Empire (NACE) Political Structure The Confederation is composed of semi-autonomous states. The Confederation is governed by a Council in the name of Empress Eriadna of Alphatia or her heir. Composition of the Council: Each member state has one vote, regardless of size, population level, etc. The voting person is normally the king or queen (or the person holding power) of the country, or his/her representative if he/she cannot attend. Every member state must thus keep a permanent staff of representatives. Anyone present during a council meeting may ask that the Council discuss on any matter, and then call for a vote. A council meeting is held at the demand of a member state. Votes pass if the majority of the representatives vote for it. In case of a deadlock, the Commander in Chief decides whether the measure passes or not. Any measure that would change the Confederation's Constitution must be accepted with unanimous approval. A state wanting to become member of the NACE has to state to the Council it is candidate for membership. A council meeting is organized to discuss and vote on this matter. The state is accepted as a new member if all current members vote for it. A state wanting to leave the NACE has to convoke a council meeting for this purpose. The state can part from the Confederation if all members vote for it. If a state declares independence from the Confederation without obtained the right to do so, it becomes a renegade state, and the Confederation may decide to intervene to restore its claim on it, be it military, politically, or otherwise. Seat of Government The commonly called Monster Island, formerly part of Alphatia, was claimed by nobody until the creation of the NACE. It thereby becomes the center of the confederate government, and is renamed the Isle of NACE, or Ionace. The Council holds meeting in a dedicated building on Ionace, called the Parliament. Each member state is granted a patch of land adjacent to the Parliament where they can build their own Representation. Staff of representatives live and work in their Representation and meet in the Parliament. Countries that keep diplomatic ties with the NACE will also be granted land on Ionace, where they can build an Embassy. Representations and Embassies are paid by the countries to which they belong. The Imperial Army is based on Ionace, where it owns buildings, including the Military Headquarters where the commander in Chief has his office. Until the Parliament and the Military Headquarters are build on Ionace, the government and military of the NACE will be assigned currently unoccupied buildings in the old Denwarf-Hurgon. Military Structure All armies of the member states are under control of the Confederation. The Confederation can also raise his how army (ie. independent from any state), called the Imperial Army, and use the service of mercenary troops. The Commander in Chief, appointed by the Council, is in command of the military. Member states must spend at least 10% of their national treasury to the upkeep of their army, in the name of the Confederation. Exemption may be granted on a case by case basis, with the approval of the Council and the Commander in Chief. Economics Member states must hand over 10% of their national treasury to the Imperial Treasury. This tax is collected quarterly, on the 1st of the months of Alphamir (Thaumont), Vertmir (Klarmont), Cyprimir (Ambyrmont), and Burymir (Kaldmont), for the preceding period. A new state must pay upon entrance into the Confederation what would be due for the current (even though it corresponds to a period previous when it was not yet member) as a sign of good will, then its taxes are collected following the normal cycle. A state leaving the Confederation must first immediately pay the tax corresponding to the current period before it is allowed to leave; this tax is equal to that it paid for the previous period. The Council decides the way the money in the Imperial Treasury is spent. Common uses include (but are not limited to): Upkeep of Imperial Army, hiring of mercenary troops, maintenance of governmental buildings, funding of research programs (magic, scientific, medical, etc.), aid to member states (loans, gifts, etc.). Laws and Justice and Festivals Each member state can decide on its national laws, as long as they do not go against the Imperial Laws. Imperial Laws must be enforced in member states. Justice is held by each member state as it sees fit. All schools and colleges within the Confederation must follow the old Alphatian calendar, ie. opening on Alphamir (Thaumont) 15 and closing on Burymir (Kaldmont) 15. A Hard-Ball tournament is organized by the Confederation each year. Each member state is invited to participate in the tournament; other countries may be invited as guests, as a sign of friendship between that country and the Confederation. The following festivals and holidays are common for all members of the Confederation; each member state can add its national festivals and holidays. - - Alphamir (Thaumont) 1: New Year Day. - - Alphamir (Thaumont) 7: Landfall Day. - - Alphamir (Thaumont) 15: Opening Day (of academic year). - - Sulamir (Flaurmont) 13: Empress Eriadna's Birthday (give a coin to a beggar in her name). - - Sulamir (Flaurmont) 28: Super-Hard-Ball (Hard-Ball final). - - Sudmir (Yarthmont) 15: Howling Day. - - Islamir (Felmont) 15: Doggerel Days. - - Cyprimir (Ambyrmont) 1: Ancestor's Day. - - Hastmir (Sviftmont) 8-15: Wine Festivals. - - Burymir (Kaldmont) 15: Closing Day (of academic year). - - Amphimir (Vatermont) 1: Hard-Ball Season Opening. Current Members of the NACE - - The Sea-Kingdom of Aquas (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Dawnrim (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Lagrius (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Meriander Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Notrion (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Surshield (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Blackrock (Amphimir (Vatermont) 28, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Floating Ar (Amphimir (Vatermont) 28, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Alpha (Sulamir (Flaurmont) 22, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Thothia (Sudmir (Yarthmont) 10, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Qeodhar (Nyxmir (Nuwmont) 13, AY 2013 (AC 1014)). - -- Herve Musseau musseauh@esiee.fr ------------------------------ From: Wildmule@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 20:40:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Synn (Was:Famous NPCs.) >>Prince Jaggar Von Drachenfels is most certainly not an evil man ! Where does this idea come from ? He's one of the few of the Glantrian princes who hold to some standard of honour, as opposed to 'might makes right, and I have the might' that the majority of the rest believe in.<< Prince Jaggar was originally Lawful. (In OD&D, there's no Good and Evil -- only Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic.) In the shift from OD&D to AD&D, Jaggar ended up being Lawful Evil. Don't ask me why -- I wasn't consulted on that one. I tried to ameliorate it a bit (having the personality shift be almost entirely due to Synn's influences), but couldn't do anything to just say "okay, he's Lawful Good again" (which is the alignment I would have given him...). If you look closely, you *will* see a gradual shift in alignment and deeds and personality back towards something less evil. And Prince Malachie has indeed planted the seeds of doubt in Jaggar's mind (by asking him to investigate the source of the strange black dragon's scale, knowing full well that Jaggar's investigations will eventually lead him to Synn and the realization that he's been duped...) This is one of the problems inherent in a "shared world" setting (i.e., anything with multiple authors). There are invariably disagreements as to which direction the world should take, let alone each individual character within that world... (I had to really work to figure out what happened to Jaggar's pegasus steed -- since pegasi will of course not allow themselves to be ridden by evil characters...) And, while we're on this topic: stein1@spring.com (Oeystein H. Lund.) wrote: >> Lawful *evil* ? I'm shocked ! Doesn't the designers read their own company's products before deciding things like that ? << Some do -- some don't. I read everything I could in the OD&D line (I have every product but one (CM1), which several people kindly offered to send me the last time I mentioned it was missing from my collection, but I never had time to respond to their kind offers and say "yes, I still need it...";-). But I still got some things wrong. There are litterally millions of words in print about Mystara, and some of them are conflicting to begin with. BTW: my free time is now down to practically nil, so I don't get to breeze through the mystara-l postings as often as I'd like. If anyone brings up a topic they'd especially like my input on, please e-mail me at ghostgames@aol. com to let me know I should pop in to my wildmule account for a look at the mystara list... Best regards, Ann Dupuis wildmule@aol.com ghostgames@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ghostgames/ ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sun Mar 31 02:28:30 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 30 Mar 96 21:28 EST Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA18726 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:46:30 -0600 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA18697 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:44:37 -0600 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA27085 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:41:02 -0600 (CST) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA18037 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 20:40:52 -0500 From: Wildmule@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 20:40:52 -0500 Message-ID: <960330204050_181714620@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Synn (Was:Famous NPCs.) Content-Length: 2643 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com >>Prince Jaggar Von Drachenfels is most certainly not an evil man ! Where does this idea come from ? He's one of the few of the Glantrian princes who hold to some standard of honour, as opposed to 'might makes right, and I have the might' that the majority of the rest believe in.<< Prince Jaggar was originally Lawful. (In OD&D, there's no Good and Evil -- only Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic.) In the shift from OD&D to AD&D, Jaggar ended up being Lawful Evil. Don't ask me why -- I wasn't consulted on that one. I tried to ameliorate it a bit (having the personality shift be almost entirely due to Synn's influences), but couldn't do anything to just say "okay, he's Lawful Good again" (which is the alignment I would have given him...). If you look closely, you *will* see a gradual shift in alignment and deeds and personality back towards something less evil. And Prince Malachie has indeed planted the seeds of doubt in Jaggar's mind (by asking him to investigate the source of the strange black dragon's scale, knowing full well that Jaggar's investigations will eventually lead him to Synn and the realization that he's been duped...) This is one of the problems inherent in a "shared world" setting (i.e., anything with multiple authors). There are invariably disagreements as to which direction the world should take, let alone each individual character within that world... (I had to really work to figure out what happened to Jaggar's pegasus steed -- since pegasi will of course not allow themselves to be ridden by evil characters...) And, while we're on this topic: stein1@spring.com (Oeystein H. Lund.) wrote: >> Lawful *evil* ? I'm shocked ! Doesn't the designers read their own company's products before deciding things like that ? << Some do -- some don't. I read everything I could in the OD&D line (I have every product but one (CM1), which several people kindly offered to send me the last time I mentioned it was missing from my collection, but I never had time to respond to their kind offers and say "yes, I still need it...";-). But I still got some things wrong. There are litterally millions of words in print about Mystara, and some of them are conflicting to begin with. BTW: my free time is now down to practically nil, so I don't get to breeze through the mystara-l postings as often as I'd like. If anyone brings up a topic they'd especially like my input on, please e-mail me at ghostgames@aol. com to let me know I should pop in to my wildmule account for a look at the mystara list... Best regards, Ann Dupuis wildmule@aol.com ghostgames@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ghostgames/ ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #93 **************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 7 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 094 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 16:17:46 -0300 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Immortal plots and Sun/moon rise charts Hi, all That is my delurk. I have been planing to write for a while and only now got the time to do so. About the moon and sun charts, I am also one who won't buy the idea of a full moon high in the sky during all the day, but enough of that. My other problem with them is that, if they are to be based in the official world (with Hollow World) there is no place as 90N or 90S. Remember the holes that should be there? I haven't calculated it exactly and I don't have the books with me now, but my guess is that even 80N won't exist unless one redefines the angles in the holes so that 90N (Known World) is the equivalent to 90N (Hollow World). Anyway, the whole table would fail there. I will do my homework as soon as I can and give you the exact angle at which the tables should fail. Of course, using a polar region as on earth as suggested later fixes the problem, bringing the 90N values to a region that exists and I think it is the best solution (don't forget to change all the other tables accordingly, so that if 90N reads 60N, 60 would read 40; 30, 20, etc, you get the idea). And there is one more interesting feature about that hole that everyone forgot. When you move into it in the summer, you won't have sun 24 hours a day, but you will recover day and night periods as Mystara turns for six months, followed by a six months night. I am thinking about populating one of these regions with a tribe of cold-resistant dwarves that hybernate during the long winter night and who preys on similar creatures. It would also be a perfect place to try to develop undeads to be gradually more resistant to the sunlight, but the World Shield won't let magic work there :( . More sugestions, anyone? Also, I think it would be fine if we would write about what we think the Immortals are up to, their plots, WotI and pos WotI. I have seen several descriptions of their powers and their clerics' abilities, new and old ones. That is all very useful, but would be better it people would contribute their alliances, areas were they are more active, etc. As someone has said, it is up to us to continue Mystara history from now on, and what better way to predict the future than to discuss the their intentions (and maybe what the more influential mortals are up to, also, as the empress Eriadna). To start it, I will write here a little theory I have about Thanatos and Vanya. First the facts that made me think: 1) There are several Vanya clerics in the Storm Soldiers (SS), a nazi-like militar faction of Thyatis that doesn't accept women in its ranks. The leader of the SS is an avatar of Thanatos and The Dawn of Emperors (DE) box says he killed the old leader and assumed his identity so he could use that organization better. Now, Vanya hates people who don't let women fight and think of them as weaklings, but DE says there are several of her clerics in the organization and that they are well accepted (they don't infiltrate it to destroy, they are there to cooperate). I just can't see how she wouldn't know what her clerics are doing, specially since there are several. And if she knows, why would she accept them to do it? 2) Why would she join the Fellowship of the Star (was that the name?) I mean, I can see why she would move Thyncol to declare war against Alphatia. With the two great empires clashing, the Heldannic Knights should stay out of the conflict untill both empires would have no strenght to oppose their expansion. If she wanted to have her knights ruling the post-war world, the better approach would be to warn Alphatia that the heldannics wouldn't tolerate alphatian forces near their lands and would consider it an act of war if they tried that route to attack Glantri. That would have forced Alphatia to fight Thyatis the same way and there would be no danger of Alphatia deciding to attack their territory. She is supposed to know military tactics. 3) Forcing Thyatis to fight untill its fall has no use, unless she was really worried about Rad, something I will never believe. But if the Thyatis city would fall, a new hattian revolution would certainly follow, commanded by the SS. The hattians hate the rest of the empire who even forbides them to wall and protect their capital and wouldn't let this opportunity pass. I guess they would propose peace to Alphatia, at least while theyr were rebuilding the empire with them as masters. Again, was Vanya working with the SS? 4) Thanatos has been extremely quiet since the fall of the nithian empire. He destroyed (or tryed really serious) Blackmoor and Nithia, if I recall it correctly, but has allowed an empire as powerful as Alphatia to live for 2000 years!? Unlikely, unless he has other plans. And the whole nightwail series, if you use it unaltered, doesn't explain it also. The immortals would restore the world to its previous state as soon as they got back, since they do intervene in the prime when they all agree, or, at least, when most hierarchs do. They created the Hollow World, they the best men of whole cultures and take them there when they feel those cultures are in danger, making them perish sooner. That's very direct intervention. So, why try it? Unless he felt he had to do something just because the other immortals know he is always planning something and would be worried if he tried nothing. So, he wanted to be defeated in that one. 5) Thanatos knows that no matter which empire he destroys, they will send it to live safely in the Hollow World and that if he destroys the Hollow World, they will rebuild it. He has no power to face all the other spheres and its immortals at the same time. So he needs to be more powerful than a simple immortal. Now, my theory: Of course, all of this means he, as everyone else, wants to be an Old One. The only know way is to be a mortal again and rise to hierarch a second time. But if he tried, almost every immortal would try to locate him and destroy himbefore that, even his fellow entropic "friends". So he deviced another way of doing it. When Vanya was a motal, her company was killed by millenian soldiers and she was saved and protected by a cleric (WotI, correct me if I am wrong). That is the official story. What really happened was that that man was a cleric of Thanatos and when his master knew he had that woman in his power, he ordered him to perform a cerimony he, Thanatos, had been preparing for a while. The cleric killed Vanya, whose soul is now trapped in Thanatos home plane and part of Thanatos entered her body, as an avatar of him, but slightly different. He then followed again the path to immortality under Khoronus (he loved to foul the old man this way) and started rising as an immortal. The two parts of him were never reunited since them and he won't do it untill both are hierarchs (or should they be reigning hierarchs?). Then he believes he will be transformed into an Old One. And he will succeed eventually, since no one has the slightest idea of it. Unless some PC, immortal or almost there, can infiltrate the SS, get the first part of the picture and later invade Thanatos home plane :) and free the real Vanya. Maybe an Old One will direct them to do it, but that would be a really major quest. Unfortunatelly, they would be in the top of the list of Thanatos enemies, ever since :) What do you think. Does anyone else has other ongoing plots that you would like to share. Per example, what about the dragons during WotI? What the Great One thought about the possibility of ending the magic of the world (he wouldn't like it, but he knows that dragons attacking Glantri would make lots of people in Alphatia afraid of a dragon-human war and the empire might consider changing sides). Or some entropic immortal would try to make every nation in Brun believes Alphatia had allied with the Nation of the Dragons and their only chance of surviving as free people would be to unite against the alphatians, making several other countries join the war against Alphatia and making it last longer. I intend to have my players run into something along these lines in the future (the date is 1005, Nuwmont now) and would thank any help I could have on developing it. Well, that's all, at least this time. Andre C. R. Martins ------------------------------ From: toron@tripnet.se (Daniel Niklasson) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:23:06 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Mystaras Future I wrote to TSR and asked about Mystaras future and Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator answerd; >The Mystara game world was closed because of low sales - people had >been making changes to their world slowly, and just as slowly stopped >buying Mystara supplements for their game. The sales that _were_=20 >generated for Mystara did not offset the costs of research, staff, and=20 >printing. > >However, TSR is working on releasing its sourcebooks on CD-ROM >this year. If this goes well, they may consider releasing >older materials on CD-ROM, or even new ones (as ROMs are much >cheaper to produce than paper products), or possibly even online >exclusives. >Also, we now have a product line called "Odyssey," which allows us >to release new material for closed worlds without having to open the >entire line. Likewise, Dragon Magazine has started its "Campaign >Classics" series, featuring articles about closed TSR lines. I think its a pity that TSR has stopped Mystara and that more poeple didn=B4= t find Mystara interesting enough to buy supplements. I=B4m looking forward on the release of the CD-ROM. /Daniel Niklasson toron@tripnet.se=20 ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:45:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal plots and Sun/moon rise charts At 04:17 PM 4/1/96 -0300, you wrote: >Now, my theory: >Of course, all of this means he, as everyone else, wants to be an Old >One. The only know way is to be a mortal again and rise to hierarch a >second time. But if he tried, almost every immortal would try to >locate him and destroy himbefore that, even his fellow entropic >"friends". So he deviced another way of doing it. Actually, there is no "known" way, except to the DM, of an Immortal becoming an Old One. There are suspicions, but all they know for sure is the blackballs come and destroy them. One idea is that they are transported and transformed to become Old Ones. The other is that they become too powerful and are annihilated. I'm not sure that Immortals are so paranoid about other Immortals acting on this rumor, and besides, I see no reason why if an Immortal becomes mortal again that he/she should be detectable by any means as a past Immortal, so that know one could know which mortal is the reincarnation of the Immortal. >The cleric killed Vanya, whose soul is >now trapped in Thanatos home plane and part of Thanatos entered her >body, as an avatar of him, but slightly different. He then followed >again the path to immortality under Khoronus (he loved to foul the old >man this way) and started rising as an immortal. The two parts of him >were never reunited since them and he won't do it untill both are >hierarchs (or should they be reigning hierarchs?). Then he believes he >will be transformed into an Old One. I don't think an Immortal avatar is a mortal who can attain Immortality. The body is a vessel, and the spirit is part of the Immortal. Otherwise it would become commonplace for Immortals to "create" mortal avatars constantly and sponsor/support them to Immortality, whereafter each Immortal would actually be a (somewhat schizoid) group of Immortals. Hmm...this doesn't really float my boat but, hey, if it works for you it works for you! :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:13:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal plots >>The cleric killed Vanya, whose soul is >>now trapped in Thanatos home plane and part of Thanatos entered her >>body, as an avatar of him, but slightly different. He then followed From ???@??? Tue Apr 09 09:33:46 1996 X-UIDL: 6e79c7a86d66f79ed7967ccfcbc4737c Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA12770; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:32:11 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA06410 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:11:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:11:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199604071711.MAA06410@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #94 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk >>again the path to immortality under Khoronus (he loved to foul the old >>man this way) and started rising as an immortal. The two parts of him >>were never reunited since them and he won't do it untill both are >>hierarchs (or should they be reigning hierarchs?). Then he believes he >>will be transformed into an Old One. > > I don't think an Immortal avatar is a mortal who can attain >Immortality. The body is a vessel, and the spirit is part of the Immortal. >Otherwise it would become commonplace for Immortals to "create" mortal >avatars constantly and sponsor/support them to Immortality, whereafter each >Immortal would actually be a (somewhat schizoid) group of Immortals. >Hmm...this doesn't really float my boat but, hey, if it works for you it >works for you! :) You know, I had a theory like this myself. Maybe it's worth dredging up. I had a campaign (never got anywhere unfortunately) that centered on a villian that was actually a mortal identity of Hel. Think about it. According to all Immortal rules (WotI and the Gold Box) no one, not even immortals, can tell that a mortal identity is an immortal in a mortal shell and not a real mortal. So, if the avatar worked this mortal up from humble beginnings (level 1) and eventually earned immortality under the sponsorship of another immortal. What would happen? I boiled it down to whatever a sponsor immortal actually does to a new immortal. If you consider a sponser just "awakens" something that's in a mortal, then all the sponsor would do is pull out Hel's avatar from it's shell, and probably be very, very embarrased. If you consider the immortal actually does something to infuse immortality in the successful candidate, then Hel would drink in that power and become all the stronger, perhaps even becoming an Immortal in 2 different spheres! I never got around to deciding what would exactly happen in my campaign if she had been successful (it was a long, long way off anyway), but your post made me wonder. I never went so far as to say it would make her an Old One, although it is a very interesting idea, I just assumed it would be some sort of legendary stroke (even among the immortals.) I never assumed Hel could sponsor her own avatar, simply because she'd only be stealing power from herself. Btw...great de-lurk. :-) - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 19:59:36 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal plots and Sun/moon rise charts You wrote: > Actually, there is no "known" way, except to the DM, of an Immortal > becoming an Old One. There are suspicions, but all they know for sure is > the blackballs come and destroy them. One idea is that they are transported > and transformed to become Old Ones. The other is that they become too > powerful and are annihilated. I'm not sure that Immortals are so paranoid > about other Immortals acting on this rumor, and besides, I see no reason why > if an Immortal becomes mortal again that he/she should be detectable by any > means as a past Immortal, so that know one could know which mortal is the > reincarnation of the Immortal. > I know there is no "known" way, but that is their best idea on how to make it. And if it fails, it will do no harm to him to be as powerful as two hierarchs. I must confess I had forgot about the blackballs in my theory, that would make someone afraid of trying it, but the power that someone would have as an Old One may be worth the risks. And, yes, the immortals wouldn't be able to locate him, except maybe using ESP on everyone they knew was trying to be immortal. I believe he would keep the memory of his immortal life, so he could be detected, theoretically. But again, they would never know if he had turned into a mortal or if he was just in another dimension, unable to come home. Anyway, it is much safer to try it if you sre still an immortal > I don't think an Immortal avatar is a mortal who can attain > Immortality. The body is a vessel, and the spirit is part of the Immortal. > Otherwise it would become commonplace for Immortals to "create" mortal > avatars constantly and sponsor/support them to Immortality, whereafter each > Immortal would actually be a (somewhat schizoid) group of Immortals. > Hmm...this doesn't really float my boat but, hey, if it works for you it > works for you! :) > My fault, I should have explained it better the first time. My idea is that after eons researching the matter, Thanathos has discovered a new immortal level spell, a very difficult one even for immortals and known only to him. With this spell, he was able to separate part of him into a new being that had all his knowledge and personality, but that kept only a very weak mental link to him. This link works only when both parts are under 100 feet apart and is not automatic. He has discovered this spell long time ago, but had to spend more efforts to make it reversible. So, that was not an usual avatar of him (I've said slightly different in my previous posting, but it was not just slightly, one more mistake). This way, everything worked as if Vanya were really another person. Of course, he can't be sure Vanya won't develop a personality of her own and try to rebel against her "master", and that's why he made sure he could reverse all the proccess with this "avatar" wanting it or not. And, of course, I was not thinking about allowing this to be commonplace among the immortals. Only Thanatos knows the formula, and it has cost him so many power points, he won't be trying it once more that soon :). I just love the idea of scaring my PC's with the knowledge that the Grim Reaper is going to be much more powerful than they can imagine. It will take some years (real time) untill they find it out, but who cares. I will have time to make them hate Thanatos before they know this one :) Andre C.R. Martins acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ From: Herve MUSSEAU Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 18:50:24 METDST Subject: Re: [Mystara] constitution of the NACE I just made my homepage, see my signature for the URL. It contains the stuff I sent to the list the last weeks, ie the Shadow Elves/ Schattenalfen relations revisited and the New Aphatian Confederated Empire constitution. I'll add more stuff soon (currently working on the events for the NACE and the Alatian Islands, and on a short story titled Zoltan the Treekeeper). Try the link and send me feedback:) - -- Herve Musseau Email: musseauh@esiee.fr Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh ------------------------------ From: Mike Doll Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:26:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] FAQ and File Index Now On the WebTo: mystara-l@io.com ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 23:19:11 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaras Future At 22.23 01/04/96 +0200, you wrote: > >>Also, we now have a product line called "Odyssey," which allows us >>to release new material for closed worlds without having to open the >>entire line. Likewise, Dragon Magazine has started its "Campaign >>Classics" series, featuring articles about closed TSR lines. > Just two notes: 1) The Odyssey line products about the Savage Coast were cancelled and they will be reales as online exclusive. 2) I saw the "Campaign Classic" series in the "new" Dragon Magazine: first two issues there was something about Greyhawk and Al Kalim (IIRC), then, when I was waiting for articles on Mystara, in the March issue there wasn't any article at all. Not such a great prospect for Mystara future... ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 13:38:06 -0600 Subject: [Mystara] List up? Hey all, I was just checking to see if the list was up, I have gotten no mail in 4 days from it. Thanks Joe ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 96 14:29:52 CST Subject: Re: [Mystara] List up? >Hey all, > I was just checking to see if the list was up, I have gotten no mail in 4 days >from it. > I am here. Jonathan Thompson SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television ------------------------------ From: s20034@hp.rmc.ca (s20034@sv2.rmc.ca) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:10:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] List up? I would like to be removed from the list, but every time I tried it didn't Any help would be apprciated Thank you "Due to budgetary constraint, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off!" "Sleep!?!? Who needs sleep? I slept two months ago!!!" "Beatings will continue until moral improves!" "Sleep is just a waste of time, you lay there and do nothing!" "There are better uses for a bed then sleeping in it" ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 08:10:19 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Topics.. Hey all, I am new to this list. Is there any current topics being discussed? Which Mystara is this list based on, D&D or the AD&D version? thanks Joe ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sun, 07 Apr 96 09:51:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Topics.. - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Sunday, 07-Apr-96 08:10 AM > > From: Joe Duke \ Internet: (gore@cris.com) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: [Mystara] Topics.. > > Hey all, > I am new to this list. Is there any current topics being discussed? > Which Mystara is this list based on, D&D or the AD&D version? > > thanks > Joe > - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Hi Joe, Most of the last few posts concerned issues relating to The Wrath of the Immortals. The list covers both D&D and AD&D versions of Mystara, as well as home-versions, alternate timelines, mixes with Spelljammer and Planescape, and so on. There's a FAQ available for the list, browse the URL http://www.io.com/~oryon/ and welcome! Shelby Michlin ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 08:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Topics.. On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Joe Duke wrote: > Hey all, > I am new to this list. Is there any current topics being discussed? The list is a bit dead at the moment; the list's activity tends to come at spurts. Feel free to start a Mystara topic. I am sure someone will jump in. > Which Mystara is this list based on, D&D or the AD&D version? Both. The FAQ for the list can be found at http://www.io.com/~oryon. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 11:45:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Topics.. > Most of the last few posts concerned issues relating to The Wrath of the > Immortals. The list covers both D&D and AD&D versions of Mystara, as well as > home-versions, alternate timelines, mixes with Spelljammer and Planescape, > and so on. Speaking of Wrath of the Immortals, how pertinent is that set to the setting? Is it a "Dieties and Demigods" for Mystara? I never looked at the set too closely, but have often lingered over buying it. What is the predominate cultural calendar used? I mean, do people go by the Gazeteers or do they go by the Timeline (by Daniel Boese) or just ignore them both altogether? How does the Poor Wizard's Almanacs (and Joahuans Travels) figure into eveyone's perceptions of the world? thanks Joe ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #94 **************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 9 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 095 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 8 Apr 96 15:08:25 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Topics.. At 11.45 07/04/96 -0500, you wrote: >Speaking of Wrath of the Immortals, how pertinent is that set to the setting? Is it a >"Dieties and Demigods" for Mystara? I never looked at the set too closely, but have >often lingered over buying it. > I don't know "Deities and Demigods", but I strongly recommend you to buy WotI if you can, especially if you don't own the Immortal Boxed Set. WotI details the rules for mastering Immortal level campaigns, the stats for many known immortals, some immortal level monsters, a description of various Planes in the Multiverse and, mainly, a world shaking adventure that takes place in AC1004-1009. So buy it. >What is the predominate cultural calendar used? I mean, do people go by the Gazeteers >or do they go by the Timeline (by Daniel Boese) or just ignore them both altogether? What's the difference ? Daniel's Timeline is based on the Gazeteers and other TSR products for Mystara. > >How does the Poor Wizard's Almanacs (and Joahuans Travels) figure into eveyone's >perceptions of the world? Uh ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 16:24:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Topics.. >What's the difference ? Daniel's Timeline is based on the Gazeteers and >other TSR products for Mystara.I'm sorry , I meant the "new" AD&D Mystara stuff vs.the Gazeteers (and Daniel's Timeline), what IS the difference? >>How does the Poor Wizard's Almanacs (and Joshuans Travels) figure into everyone's >>perceptions of the world?0 >Uh ?I mean are they extensively used? Joe ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:44:50 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] List up? > > I would like to be removed from the list, but every time I tried it didn't > > Any help would be apprciated Hope this helps... - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X >From rec.games.frp.dnd Tue Sep 19 12:29:10 1995 Path: news.cc.tut.fi!news.funet.fi!news.kolumbus.fi!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.dsndata.com!wetware!wsrcc.com!news.orst.edu!news.uidaho.edu!buzzard.csrv.uidaho.edu!van891 From: van891@buzzard.csrv.uidaho.edu (Leroy Van Camp III) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Mystara Mailing List FAQ 1.0 Date: 15 Sep 1995 18:09:21 GMT Organization: His Own Hell Lines: 154 Distribution: world Message-ID: <43cfgh$euk@newshound.uidaho.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: buzzard.csrv.uidaho.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] MYSTARA MAILING LIST FAQ 1.0 -- CREDIT -- In the belief of giving credit where credit is due, this FAQ was based on the GURPSnet-L FAQ, which was written by Sean Barrett, who is also the author of GURPS Lensmen. It's a good book. Check it out. Additional changes were made on the advise of Sir George Anonymous. --- INTRODUCTION --- Mystara is one TSR's fantasy game settings for use with it's xD&D games, and the Mystara Mailing List is for discussing this setting. In addition, the list is also a place for discussing the Original Dungeons and Dragons game. --- HOW TO SUB, POST, AND UNSUB --- Q: How do I subscribe to Mystara-L? A: To subscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@io.com. (Note that this is not the posting address.) In the body, have the single line... "subscribe Mystara-L mystara@lovin.fool.com" Of course, replacing the given address with your own. Q: How do I post to Mystara-L? A: To post, send your message to mystara-l@io.com. (Note that this is not the subscribe/unsubscribe address.) Your message will be sent to every subscriber, including yourself. Q: How do I unsubscribe to Mystara-L? A: To unsubscribe, send email to majordomo@io.com. (Note that this is not the posting address.) In the body, have the single line... "unsubscribe Mystara-L mystara@lovin.fool.com" Of course, replacing the given address with your own. Q: Can I get the messages in digest form? A: Sure. Use the procedure above to subscribe, only substitute Mystara-Digest for Mystara-L. Q: What's a digest? A: The digest version of the list saves up the messages until they reach a specified volume or time period, then sends them out as a single long message, instead of one at a time. There is no savings on space or noise, but it is useful for people who can only pick up their messages once a day, or who are charged per message rather than by message size. - POSTING - Q: What can a person talk about on the Mystara Mailing List (MML)? A: The MML is for the discussion of ... 1) Mystara in both it's D&D and AD&D incarnations. 2) How other TSR settings and supplements interact with Mystara (i.e. Spelljammer,Planescape, Ravenloft, Chronomancer, Shaman, etc.) 3) Original Dungeons & Dragons (a.k.a. Basic D&D, or just D&D) Q: What can't a person talk about on the MML? A: The MML is not for general discussion of AD&D or TSR's other fantasy worlds. Q: Why is it that you can discuss general D&D, but not general AD&D? A: The available resources for AD&D far surpass D&D. As far as this FAQ writer knows, there is no list dedicated solely to D&D, so this list tries to make up for that. If one is looking for discussion of general AD&D, one does not have to look hard. In addition, D&D was the original system that Mystara was designed under. Q: So, is the list admin an Ogre who will ban me from the list if a thread starts to stray from Mystara? A: Actually, the admin is a really nice guy who set up this list out of love for Mystara, not to hold power over others. (Well, maybe a little power). The admin will only intervene if the topics start to stray too far for too long, or if there is a general consensus from members that a thread must die. Q: How can I contact the admin without sending mail to the entire list? A: The admin can be contacted through e-mail, at the following address: owner-mystara-l@io.com Feel free to drop the admin an e-line. He's open to opinions and suggestions about the list. Q: Can I advertise on MML? A: If you have Mystara or other D&D products for sale, feel free to post an ad to MML. If you are running an auction, though, do it from r.g.f.marketplace, with an announcement in MML. The sale of other items is disallowed. Posting any sort of chain letter or Make Money Fast! ads is a good way to get kicked off. Q: How about Fluff (game-based fiction)? A: No, at this point. How ever, if a majority of people on the list want it, this may change. Pointers to where fluff can be found is all right, as long as they are innocuous. Informing the list every time you complete a chapter of your two hundred chapter epic is not innocuous. Q: Can I ask if there are any gamers in my area? A: Sure, but keep it short, and don't get carried away with frequency. Posting such a question once a week is delving into the shadowy world of Spam. Q: Such and such Mystara product is out of print. Can I ask someone on the list to type/scan/copy it for me? A: Anyone that engages in blatant copyright infringement on the list will get a warning. Further violations will result in a ban from the list. --- FTP & WWW SITES --- Q: We ought to have an FTP or WWW site where we can make stuff available. A: Currently, there are no dedicated MML sites, but there are a lot of sites out there that hold gigs of xD&D stuff (like MPGN). But, the admin will retain a copy of any interesting bits of info, rules, NPC's, etc. These will be indexed, and can be requested for e-mail. Hopefully a better system can be worked out soon. ------------------------------ From: Herve MUSSEAU Date: Tue, 9 Apr 96 16:24:00 METDST Subject: [Mystara] (story) Zoltan the Treekeeper The list's pretty quiet lately, so I post things for you folks. BTW: everything I post is also availaible via my hompage at http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh There are many text I wrote about post-WotI Mystara, including the Shadowelves/ Schattenalfen relations revisited, the Contitution of the New Alphatian Confederated Empire, the Events for the NACE for years 1013 and 1014. A note concerning this story: I did it as an autonomous project in English (yes we can do that:) so any feedback is welcome. Zoltan the Treekeeper Chapter 1: In Which Zoltan Meets the Shiye-Lawr Again. A lonely shadow was moving in the untamed wilderness. Not afraid by wild animals or monsters, not slowed at all by thriving plants or by the coldness, it was going deeper and deeper into the heart of forest, away from the coast, away from the Great Bay. It was days since he had left civilization, but that was his choice. The forest was green, as it always is in this northern region, consisting mostly of evergreen-covered hills. Surely, it was spring, but in cold Norwold that meant something very different from southern Thyatis or Karameikos. Zoltan stopped and raised his head, sniffing the surrounding air. " No more than 35 degrees ", he thought to himself. Then he silently resumed his slow, determined pace, leaning on his walking staff. Yes, there were unquestionable signs proving the return of spring in the region. Wild animals were to be seen lurking around, whereas the forest was silent and forsaken a few months ago, while most of them were either hibernating, or trying to escape the freezing cold in deep holes or caves. They were happy now that the winter was over, with its layer of vegetation-covering snow gone. Reindeers were grazing everywhere, hunted down by bands of hungry wolves. Nature. Humans call it wilderness, elves call it home. Suddenly, Zoltan heard voices coming from the trees overhead, singing in an odd language. What marvelous voices they were! This was certainly not the song of humans, since no man on Mystara could sing in such a beautiful way. Only elves had such pure and clear voices that could mesmerize you so. They were elves of the Shiye-Lawr branch, singing in their own dialect a song honoring nature, life, the return of the spring, and how happy they were. It was years since Zoltan hadn't heard such a song, and he couldn't resist staying there for a moment, doing nothing but listening silently, barely even breathing. He remembered the Vyalia elves among whom he had lived for a few years, and how much he missed them. He was sure now he had taken the good decision. He stayed there for a long time, spellbound by the elven song. Then finally he raised his hooded head, and said loudly, in the language of the elves: " May Ilsundal bless this song ". The voices immediately stopped, and the forest suddenly became totally still. After a few seconds, a voice answered him from a tree: " Zoltan! Be welcome among us! " Five elves jumped to the ground. " Are you already tired of humans? " " Yes and no. May I join your party? I shall explain to the clan why I'm back here once we're in the Foresthome. " " Sure. Come with us, white man. " Chapter 2: In Which Zoltan Is Accepted in a Foresthome but Makes Enemies Already. They soon reached the elven Foresthome. The leader of the group whistled. He was answered by another whistle coming from the trees, and soon a rope was lowered. Four of the elves dexterously climbed it, then the remaining one asked Zoltan with a smile: " Can you climb it unassisted or do you need some help, wise man? " " I may walk with a staff, young elf, but this doesn't mean I am helpless. Do not always believe what your eyes tell you, for everything is not always what it looks like. Never underestimate your enemy, he may surprise you. " Zoltan grabbed the rope, and climbed it with an incredible agility. The smile disappeared from the face of the elf, and he went pale. The rope led Zoltan to a platform set in the tree. This was definitely no human town, the latest being generally made of stone or wood. This village was entirely built high in the trees, hidden from the eyes of whoever would venture so deep in the forest. It consisted mostly of platforms, linked by ropes used as some kind of bridgeways, and roofs to protect the inhabitants from the harsh weather. But what was most amazing in these structures was that they were made of living wood, directly carved out of the branches of the trees. An elf was waiting for Zoltan on the platform. " Welcome to our Foresthome. Lord Gilsangir has been informed of your arrival. The whole clan is already waiting for you on the meeting platform. Follow me. " Zoltan nodded. The two then walked along a maze of rope passageways set up between the trees, until they reached a huge, open air platform stretching over a vast area between the grandest trees. Many elves were gathered there, staring at the pale Zoltan. Lord Gilsangir was sitting on a living throne, with Lady Alandira at his side. Zoltan also noticed the presence of Calahas, cleric of Eiryndul, frowning at his sight, obviously not pleased by the event. Zoltan, heavily wrapped in his jet black clothes, slowly walked through the crowd of assembled elves toward the royal throne, stopping seven feet from the king. He took off his black hood, revealing his white hair and skin, and bowed to him, saying: " My lord, may Ilsundal the Wise always watch over you and your people. " Although he couldn't see him, he felt Calahas frowning even more than before, if ever that was possible. Zoltan then regained his normal posture, and plunged his white eyes into Gilsangir's blue ones. " I welcome you, Zoltan, high priest of Ilsundal the Wise. Judging by what you said to the group you encountered earlier en route to our Foresthome, I assume you didn't come here just to have some fun in our company. So, please state your business, my friend. - - Your Majesty, although I love to spend time with elves, it is indeed true that I came to you for an important reason. " Zoltan paused a few seconds, letting the attention of the crowd increase. " You certainly know that King Ericall claims the whole region of Norwold in the name of his mother, Empress Eriadna of mighty Alphatia. - - I do, but this is men's affairs. We elves shall remain free of human rule, as we've always been. And everybody knows Ericall doesn't control much of the land he claims. And why should Ericall's claim concern us by the way? No men would ever want to live in our dense forests_I mean, except for you of course. - - Well, this is the point. Maybe you know King Ericall has granted dominions during the last Spring Festival in his capital city of Alpha, thereby hoping to better control the farther areas. I am now Baron Zoltan, in charge of this very area you call home. " Whispers grew within the crowd, and Gilsangir frowned, while Zoltan grabbed a paper in his pocket. He held it out to the king. " This is written in Alphatian, but it says exactly what I just told you. " Calahas intervened: " What does this mean? Do you think you can just come here with a paper written by mortal humans and take control of our lives? " An elf showed up on an adjacent platform, pointing an accusing finger toward Zoltan. It was Aessalar, the assistant of Calahas. He shouted: " Yes, you come here as a missionary of the humans and of your immortal. Do you think you can merely come with a paper and turn us into your slaves? We settled here centuries ago because we wanted to be ruled by nobody save ourselves. At that period we wanted to be free from the rule of the king of Shiye-Lawr in Alphatia. Today we shall fight against a coup such as yours. I shall never submit to your will, or to that of your human king and empress, or to that of your Immortal, and neither will any of my kin. Leave us in peace and return with your human friends. Leave the forest at once and go back to your so-called civilization; you're not welcome here any more. " Suddenly, a winged, one-foot tall creature appeared at a mere two inches from the nose of Aessalar, and shouted: " Boo " as loud as she could with her soft voice. The surprised elf lost his balance, and fell off the platform. The malicious sprite quickly cast a Featherfall spell on him, causing him to fall slowly to the ground, while she burst into laughter, rapidly imitated by the gathered elves. The king said: " A member of the wee folk! Come closer to me, my little fellow, and tell me who the hell you are, and what you are doing here. " The fair sprite fled toward the elven lord, obviously very pleased by her impromptu entrance, and by her practical joke. She bowed deeply to the king, and said with her most respectful voice_but still with a large smile on her face: " Your Majesty, my name is Maeva ap Lywell Van Gwernach, but my friends prefer to call me Tac. I have traveled to this place with my friend Zoltan the Wise. I hope you will pardon me for this little trick I played upon that elf, but I couldn't resist. He was flaming Zoltan before he even had given him half a chance to justify. You know, he's really a good fellow, and he certainly does not intend to enslave you nor anyone else, or do whatever other horrors mentioned by that elf that unexpectedly left us way too early_much to our regret. - - Yes, to our regret, " answered Gilsangir laughingly. " But I guess you're probably From ???@??? Tue Apr 11 00:20:59 1995 X-UIDL: a956f1cc690acfa90bdad595cbf6d35f Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA07260; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:16:12 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA08454 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:51:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:51:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199604091551.KAA08454@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #95 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk right, we haven't heard Zoltan's explanation yet_and nobody save himself can explain what he meant with his title granted by a king of men. So, Zoltan, we all listen to you now. - - Contrary to Aessalar's opinion, I do not come here with that title to enslave you. In fact, it is exactly the opposite: it will guarantee you that the humans claiming the surrounding areas will never try to oust you from your homeland. By recognizing them, you are assured in return of being recognized by them as full owner of that land. This won't change anything regarding your way of life; this is only token fealty, just so that both races can live side by side without any misunderstanding. It will be my entire responsibility to deal with the humans, and I can promise you I'll never get you involved in their petty squabbles. The only noticeable change for you will be that you may more easily engage in peaceful trade with humans; for that matter, I'm sure Baroness Celia, who established a dominion near the coast south of here, will be more than happy to cooperate. And I should add that I'm not gonna steal any power from you, Lord Gilsangir, you shall continue to be the clan leader as before. - - I think this is going to be trouble " intervened Lady Alandira. " We don't need any more clerics within our clan, we already have far too many. If we let that cleric of Ilsundal settle among us, it will only cause many unwanted clashes with the clerics of Eiryndul we harbor. You just saw an example of what will happen all the time, and this may only worsen. We don't need yet another futile cult of a stupid Immortal, one is more than enough. - - My dear Alandira, everyone knows your opinion about faith. You're probably right on one point, however: This may be a source of tension with the older clergy dedicated to Eiryndul. Zoltan, although he is a short-lived human, is a powerful High Priest of Ilsundal, whereas Calahas has not yet achieved that level at Eiryndul's service. " Gilsangir paused a moment, pondering over the choice that was now his. " But as our little fellow of the wee folk pointed out, Zoltan is definitely an Elf-Friend, and as such I trust him when he says he does it to our benefit. Zoltan, I accept you become a clan member, and I allow you to become a vassal of the human king and represent us. Zoltan, albino priest of Ilsundal the Wise, you are now one of us, and you can settle among us with Tac, your malicious little companion. - - Thank you my Lord, this was a wise decision you shall never regret. I accept it with honor and modesty. - - You will probably need a home of sort, I'll do what's necessary to get a home in a tree prepared for you. - - I thank you for your gentle attention, but that won't be necessary. I shall grow my own tree. " said the enigmatic priest. Zoltan slowly left the meeting room, with Tac sitting on his shoulder with a large smile on her face, leaving a startled king behind. The elves were happy with the decision, except for three of them. Alandira was not pleased, and Calahas had earned a powerful rival. Aessalar, who had just climbed back to the meeting platform in time to hear Gilsangir's decision, was plotting revenge. Chapter 3: In Which a Tree Is Born and an Elf Finds His Vocation. After the feast in his honor, Zoltan retired to a calmer area. There he meditated alone, with only the silent presence of Tac and the forest surrounding him. He grabbed a medallion that was hanging at his neck. The medallion started to glow with a strong aura in the priest's hand, for it was not a mere mundane one. This had been given to Zoltan by an old elven Treekeeper of the Vyalia clan some years ago, and inside the pure crystal, a root cut out of a Tree of Life was resting, still alive and imbued with the power of Ilsundal. Zoltan had always considered it to be quite similar to the holy symbol clerics of all religions used to channel the magical energy they received from their Immortal patron. But now the true power of the root had become obvious to him. The ten Mother Trees Ilsundal created centuries ago as part of his path to Immortality were his ten avatars, and the Daughter Trees grow out of their limbs were a receptacle of his power, destined to protect his kin once he had completed his quest. The root itself was compelling Zoltan to plant it. The priest dug a hole in the earth, and put the root, still enclosed in the medallion, in the hole. Tac stared at him, wondering what he was doing. Then Zoltan sat back, closed his eyes, and began mediating and praying, entering a state of deep trance, in complete communion with the tree to be. Tac waited a few minutes, growing impatient. She sighed, then grumbled, and finally yawned. Seeing nothing was about to happen, she decided to lie flat on a comfortable bed of mosses, and immediately fell asleep. Tac awoke at dawn the following day, stretching herself deliciously, and suddenly found herself falling to the ground. " Whoa, if I didn't have wings_ Hey, wait a minute, where am I? I'm sure I didn't go to sleep on that tree. That's weird. And I never saw a tree like this one, except maybe_ No, that can't be_ " The sprite fluttered around, obviously very excited. " A Tree of Life! Can't believe it! Hey Zoltan, have you seen that? Zoltan? " The sprite suddenly realized she was alone up there in the highest reaches of the tree, and flew toward the ground. She spotted the priest sitting at the foot of the imposing tree. " Hey Zoltan, this's just great! How did you do that? " At that point she realized Zoltan was still in that same deep trance as the previous evening and so couldn't hear her. " Oops, the process's not over, I guess_ " That day, the young Tsunamir had decided to wake up early, and go hunting alone. He rapidly got dressed, grabbed his longbow and arrows, and left his home. He had just left the Foresthome when he stumbled upon an unexpected obstacle: A tree was standing in front of him, where there was none the day before. And what a tree! Tsunamir was struck at the sight of the most dazzling tree he had ever seen. He felt mystically attracted to it, compelled to tend it; it was like he had discovered a meaning to his life. From that day on, his life would be linked to that tree. Tac hailed the elf. " What's your name, young elf? - - I'm Tsunamir the Dashing. You are the little sprite that played a practical joke on Aessalar yesterday, aren't you? - - Yes, but sh! Zoltan is meditating, I don't think we shall disturb him right now. All that clerical stuff is serious, after all, and it amazes me how powerful it can prove to be. Ya see the results! A Tree of Life! - - This is a Tree of Life, really? I had already heard tales about them, but I had never actually seen one. We Shiye-Lawr have followed Eiryndul eastwards when King Mealiden Starwatcher led our people out of the Sylvan Realm via the magical rainbow, and we didn't bring any Tree of Life with us, although we kept memory of the grand trees. " A patrol of elves guarding the village showed up. " Hey, what happened here? I don't remember that tree_and what a tree_, though I know this forest quite well. - - Well, it grew overnight " answered Tsunamir. " Overnight? Are you kidding? What kind of joke is that? Who is using illusion magics? - - This is plain real, buddy, " intervened Tac, " although I would have loved setting up a trick like that_thanks for giving me the idea. I think the wizard Arcadius knows about some spell called Phantasmal Terrain or something like that. I wonder if_ - - But how could a tree grow in just one night? Any sane elf knows such things take years, or even centuries for a tree like this one. - - Oh, that's no normal tree, this one is a legendary Tree of Life. Zoltan's a cleric of Ilsundal, remember? And please, can you shut up, he's still meditating. And lower your bows, I'm no polymorphed orc! - - Sorry. Well, er_ Salinor, go to the palace and fetch Lord Gilsangir. And Calahas, too, I think he will be very interested. " The elf nodded, and left. He came back a few minutes later with the king, Calahas, and many elves curious to learn what was causing so much agitation. The group stopped at the sight of the Tree. They stared at it, totally amazed. " You certainly understand why I prompted you to come. The little sprite says it is a Tree of Life, and that Zoltan caused it to grow overnight. - - And what did Zoltan say? - - Well, he couldn't say much_he's still in a deep trance. In fact, I am quite preoccupied by his health. It seems he spent the whole night sitting there in the cold, and I don't think he's used to the rigors of our nights. " An elf child standing in the crowd asked loudly: " Is he dead, dad? He's completely white. - - No, he isn't, sonny. He's always that way, he's just an albino. Mother Nature forgot to paint him when he was born. This is his natural coloration. " Calahas walked up to Zoltan, kneeled down, and looked at the human priest: " Yes, he seems to have suffered from the frost. I can barely feel his heart pulsing. I fear he will die if we don't help him. " He paused. " But if we take him back to the Foresthome and try to heal him, we will certainly break his meditation, and I don't know what effects this could have on the_ " He paused again. " _the Tree of Life. The decision is yours. " The king weighted the different options, but he knew he had to make up his mind fast, for waiting could mean Zoltan's death. " Take him back to the Foresthome, we shall heal him there. Abandoning him here would be a sure death. - - And what about the tree? - - Nothing. We shall wait until Zoltan recovers consciousness. Only he knows what he has to do regarding it. " When Zoltan finally awoke, he realized he was not amid the trees any more. The voice an elven maiden sounded: " At last you are back to this world. We feared nothing could bring you back to health. You remained unconscious for a full month. We tended to you, but nothing improved your condition, neither well-known medicinal herbs nor Calahas's healing spells. - - Where am I? Where is the forest? - - Oh, we brought you to the Foresthome. Outside you would already have died of exposure. Hey, don't try to leave your bed yet, you're not strong enough to stand up. - - I know the process took a heavy toll on my constitution, but I have to go to the Tree. I have to. " Zoltan got up with great difficulty; his pain was obvious. He walked toward the door of living wood, pitifully leaning on his walking staff. He reached the door, grabbed the handle, and stayed there a few seconds, recovering from the effort. The next step was more difficult, however, for Zoltan now wanted to climb down to the ground. He had been seriously injured many times during previous adventures with his companions, with no more healing spells handy, and he had always managed to continue despite the suffering. This time the quest was of much more significance to him, and his low constitution wouldn't stop him. Zoltan firmly clenched the rope, and carefully climbed down. Once there, he set out for the place he hopped a new tree was standing. Although this was not that far, it seemed to him that was miles away, both because of his temporary poor health and because his longing for the sight of the mighty tree. When he reached the spot of the tree, it was standing there, majestic. Zoltan felt the power of the Tree of Life permeate his entire body, and the pain was gone. A young elf approached, and spoke to him: " I was waiting for you, Master. I knew you would come. - - Who are you, young elf? - - My name's Tsunamir, Master. When the Tree first appeared, I felt its call. I thank Thee Ilsundal for giving a meaning to my life. So I took care of the Tree while it was growing. Is the process over, Master? - - No, it isn't. It will take five more years before it gains all its powers, but it is already aware. - - I shall tend it through these five years, and afterward. Teach me the way of the Tree, Master. Teach me the way of Ilsundal and I shall serve you and Him faithfully. " Zoltan stared at him, wondering if Ilsundal in His great wisdom had really chosen the young elf to enter in His priesthood. One thing was obvious, however: he would need an assistant when he would leave the forest to represent the elves before the human king, as he had promised, or when he would have to follow his old companions on an adventure. " Tell me something, young elf: You said you knew I was coming. How that? - - Oh yes, I almost forgot. Just before your arrival I found something lying at the foot of the Tree. I think this is yours. " Tsunamir reached something in his pocket, and held it out to the priest. It was a elven- designed medallion, with a well-cut crystal that reflected the morning sun into a dazzling rainbow of light. Inside the crystal stand a small, living root, strongly pulsing in the presence of the Tree of Life from which it was coming. " Indeed it is, my son. " Appendix: In Which the Main Characters Are Described. Zoltan Hytaxius Human Cleric of Ilsundal, level 10. Strength 14, Intelligence 20, Wisdom 20, Dexterity 10, Constitution 13, Charisma 17. Age: difficult to estimate, in fact only 27. Skin: white, Eyes: white, Hair: white, Distinguishing mark: albino, 6'0", 168 lbs. Born in a poor family of Thyatis City, Zoltan became the leader of a band of teenagers bullies as a way of not being rejected as a monster because of his lack of skin coloration. When the girl he loved died of an overdose, he felt disgusted by the so-called civilization and left for the west. To avoid contact with anyone he didn't follow the road, walking aimlessly through fields and forests alike. One day he stumbled upon a group of elves of the Vyalia clan, between Thyatis and Karameikos. They treated him with respect, not giving any attention to his lack of coloration. The local Treekeeper, saying his patron Ilsundal had foreseen his fate would be very important to the Elves, taught to Zoltan the Way of Ilsundal in only a few years_an amazingly very short time from the elves' point of view. He also gave him a medallion with a root he had cut from the living Tree, telling him he would know what to do with it when the time would come. Still with no real goal in life, but now a young cleric, he left the Vyalia. He met other young adventurers, and decided to go with them on various adventures all over the Known World. Maeva ap Lywell Van Gwernach, or more simply Tac Sprite Fairy Wizard, level 9. Strength 6, Intelligence 17, Wisdom 9, Dexterity 18, Constitution 9, Charisma 15. Age: unknown, Skin: white, Eyes: blue, Hair: blond, 11", a few lbs only. Little is known of the little, mischievous sprite, except that she originates from the fairy world of Feywood; she decided to go with Zoltan, the friend of the forest-dwelling creatures, when he traveled to her world with his group. She loves to play unharmful tricks, and has always her tiny backpack full of weird objects she collects to that end. She generally remains Invisible to Mortals in order to better surprise her victims. Although she's now an somewhat experienced spellcaster, her spell range are limited to nature-oriented ones, and she often uses them to play practical jokes rather than on more vital issues_much to the dismay of Zoltan's adventuring companions. Calahas Elf Cleric of Eiryndul, level 7. Strength 14, Intelligence 15, Wisdom 17, Constitution 14, Dexterity 17, Charisma 13. Age: 520, Skin: pale, Eyes: green, Hair: blond, 5'2", 125 lbs. Previous highest-ranking priest of the village. He opposes Zoltan both for personal power and on behalf of his patron immortal. He won't directly challenge his clan lord's authority but tries to influence him. Can temporarily rally Zoltan if clan is seriously threatened. Aessalar Elf Cleric of Eiryndul, level 3. Strength 16, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Constitution 15, Dexterity 18, Charisma 10. Age: 240, Skin: pale, Eyes: blue, Hair: golden blond, 5'4", 140 lbs. Assistant to Calahas, he violently opposes Zoltan, even if that leads to problems for the clan or himself. He will first try tricks_following his patron Immortal's teachings_, then becomes more dangerous if Zoltan gains power within the clan. He's not beyond trying to burn down the Tree of Life, or attack Zoltan or his allies. Lord Gilsangir Elf Fighter/Wizard, level 12/8. Strength 16, Intelligence 17, Wisdom 18, Constitution 12, Dexterity 11, Charisma 15. Age: 880, Skin: pale, Eyes: blue, Hair: white, 5'4", 130 lbs. Kind, benevolent, fair ruler of the Foresthome. Generally slow to make up his decisions, because he always wants to listen to everybody's opinion and then decide what's better for his kin. His decisions are law, however, and no elf in the clan will challenge them. Lady Alandira Elf Wizard, level 12. Strength 8, Intelligence 18, Wisdom 14, Constitution 10, Dexterity 17, Charisma 14. Age: 830, Skin: pale, Eyes: violet, Hair: violet, 5'1", 110 lbs. Alandira believes one should always try to achieve greater personal power_not a common attitude for an elf_, and that the best way to do this is by studying magic and mastering it. To her, following an Immortal doesn't help, you are just a pawn for him. So she opposes all clerics, but only if that's not too difficult, dangerous or time-consuming_she has better things to do. Influencing her husband is an easy way. Tsunamir Elf Cleric of Ilsundal, level 1. Strength 15, Intelligence 16, Wisdom 14, Constitution 14, Dexterity 18, Charisma 12. Age: 150, Skin: pale, Eyes: green, Hair: golden blond, 5'3", 130 lbs. Tsunamir is a very young, still turbulent elf, who does not much except singing, hunting, flirting, in short, having fun. When Zoltan's Tree of Life appears, its majesty and beauty strike him, and he embraces Ilsundal's way. He tries to be a good acolyte to Zoltan the Treekeeper, but he's still very young, naive and impulsive. He would give his life to save the Tree of Life. - -- Herve Musseau Email: musseauh@esiee.fr Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #95 **************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 14 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 096 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Doll Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Need Suggestions for an Immortal Hi, This is my official delurk, although I accendently sent a reply to a message about a week ago (sorry about that, I left my terminal for a few minutes and when I came back my mail program was going bonkers sending off replies left and right. Fortunatly I killed all but one.) Anyway I am running a campaign and one of the players wants to create a priest. Well unfortunaltly he doesnt have any Mystara material. And all the material I have on the immortals contains info I dont want the players to know. The only thing I could show him was the list given in the PWA. This doesnt give much info at all. And know struck his fancy at the time. He recently sent me an email describing what his patron immortal should be like. Bellow is a portion of the message he sent me. If this immortal/faith sounds simular to any of the immortals of Mystara please let me know. Do you think I should just create a new immortal for this? If so does the level of the Immortal have any effect on what powers he can grant to his priests? BTW in the following text Faylun Stormwell is the name of the priest. ****************************************************************************** Here's my idea for Faylun's faith. It could be a small, but growing faith. Most of its active members would probably not even be priests. Faylun follows an order which believes in helping the weak and needy by teaching them to help themselves. Followers of "God X" are all teachers of one kind or another. An acolyte who is a traveling healer would always know healing and herbalism proficiencies and would teach the skills to everyone willing to learn. Another might be a warrior who travels to towns harassed by bandits and marauders and teaches his trade to every able-bodied citizen. Another might teach people to read. Their services are never free. While they do not usually ask monetary payment, they always require that their pupils use what they have been taught to help others. They know that few people have any initiative, though, so they usually give a specific directive. "You will form a school and teach all the children to read." "You will follow your mayor into battle when the goblin raiders attack," etc., etc.. Followers of X can be of any class, though thieves are rare, and they can be LG, LN, NG, N, or CG. They focus their attention on the needy, so they might offer protection to a trader with only a single wagon and his family, but would less often join a hundred wagon caravan with fifty mercenary warriors. They often offer training to adventurers, but they always require some service in return. And it is usually more arduous than a simple monetary payment. A follower of X would never simply give money to a beggar, but might ask the beggar to perform some task in exchange for payment. Or he might pay for a bath and a new set of clothes for the beggar and then help him to find a job. If the acolyte came to a village beset by marauders, he might try to organize the villagers into a fighting force and then lead them in their defense, leaving the village only after they realize their ability to protect themselves. Followers of X find complete dependence or helplessness completely abhorrent. Therefore, they rarely use spells of compulsion, even against enemies. Also, they dislike serfdom, and they are diametrically opposed to slavery. They have nothing against servitude, as long as it is not forced. For the same reasons, they actively oppose those who animate dead, and they take every opportunity to free the souls of the dead imprisoned in undead state. They dislike complacency and fatalism, so they are opposed to gods of fate and luck. ****************************************************************************** Any suggestions whould be appreciated, Thanks, Mike Doll ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] A Few Words From the Admin Here are a few things that I thought should be brought up... First, I have recently become employed (Micron Computer), and my time has become very limited, at least for a few weeks. I will still be doing my standard Admin duties, but I will be paying very little attention to actual posts. So, if you need to contact me please do it directly, through one of the addresses in my .sig. Second, as many people know there is a problem with the list; it seems some people who po post to the MML get a reply from io.com, with a large header full of stuff, plus a copy of the original mailing. I have e-mailed the guys at Illuminati Online, and they say they have looked at it, but it hasn't been fixed yet. Pleae hold tight on this. I will be bugging them about it again in a day or two. Third, someone has posted fluff (fiction) to the list. I hate to seem hardnosed, but, as the FAQ indicates, fluff is not currently allowed on the list. If you have fluff please post it to the proper place (such as your own web page, or too a newsgroup). Notes that such stories are availabel are fine. And, since I mentioned the FAQ, I thought I would again give out the URL for my web page, which has a link to the FAQ. As I said before, please realizxe that my web page is in the emryonic stage, and much of the junk on it is just there so I can test out HTML, which I have only begun to learn. http://www.io.com/~oryon Thanks for your time. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:58:09 -0400 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Need Suggestions for an Immortal > Anyway I am running a campaign and one of the players wants to create > a priest. Well unfortunaltly he doesnt have any Mystara material. > And all the material I have on the immortals contains info I dont want > the players to know. The only thing I could show him was the list > given in the PWA. This doesnt give much info at all. And know struck > his fancy at the time. He recently sent me an email describing what > his patron immortal should be like. Bellow is a portion of the > message he sent me. If this immortal/faith sounds simular to any of > the immortals of Mystara please let me know. Do you think I should > just create a new immortal for this? If so does the level of the > Immortal have any effect on what powers he can grant to his priests? > [Details snipped] I'll have to pull out my books if I want to give you specific Immortals, but I have a suggestion that you might find useful. Many Immortals have several, possibly even competing faiths, worshipping the same Immortal under different names and attributes. For example, in WotI, Hel creates several cults that draw their power from her, but believe they're following the teachings of heroes of old. Or take Benekander, under the nom-de-crux or Gareth, preaching Immortal noninterference. Actually, Benekander/Gareth sounds quite appropriate, if you give him a new name.. I'm sure he's interested in Mystara upgrading its technology base, perhaps even poking a dimensional hole back to his home.. ;) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:23:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Need Suggestions for an Immortal At 03:58 PM 4/9/96 -0400, Daniel Boese wrote: >Or take Benekander, under the >nom-de-crux or Gareth, preaching Immortal noninterference. > Actually, Benekander/Gareth sounds quite appropriate, if you give him a >new name.. I'm sure he's interested in Mystara upgrading its technology >base, perhaps even poking a dimensional hole back to his home.. ;) I assume you've established this link between Benekander and Gareth yourself? I thought it seemed likely myself, but to my knowledge there is no evidence in any of the published literature. I'm just asking in case there is and I've overlooked it. BTW, interesting idea about a project for him to be able to get back home, although I would think that as an Immortal he'd have the power to do it magically. I guess that's a VERY "far-off" dimension, eh? :) Take care, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Mike Doll Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Need Suggestions for an Immortal > > message he sent me. If this immortal/faith sounds simular to any of > > the immortals of Mystara please let me know. Do you think I should > > just create a new immortal for this? If so does the level of the > > Immortal have any effect on what powers he can grant to his priests? > > [Details snipped] Daniel Boese wrote: > > I'll have to pull out my books if I want to give you specific Immortals, > but I have a suggestion that you might find useful. Many Immortals have > several, possibly even competing faiths, worshipping the same Immortal > under different names and attributes. For example, in WotI, Hel creates > several cults that draw their power from her, but believe they're > following the teachings of heroes of old. Or take Benekander, under the > nom-de-crux or Gareth, preaching Immortal noninterference. > Actually, Benekander/Gareth sounds quite appropriate, if you give him a > new name.. I'm sure he's interested in Mystara upgrading its technology > base, perhaps even poking a dimensional hole back to his home.. ;) Thanks for the tips Daniel, I had already thought of using Hel or Benekander, although I havent heard of Gareth yet. I decided against Hel because I only know the player through DND so I didn't want him thinking I was picking on him when he found out. Benekander appealed to me since my campaign is currently at the start of 1008, and I would like to incorporate the WOTI events into their adventures. Unfortunatly the second phase of the adventure presented in WOTI is passed and since the characters are currently only 2-3 level there is no way they will be powerfull enough for the third phase. Anyway the main concern I have about Benekander is that I am under the impression that he wants to keep his Immortality a secret from the rest of the Immortals. If this is the case how do you get mortal followers without the rest of the Immortals knowing about you? Have I just misinterpreted Benekanders intentions? Is it just his mortal identity he wants to keep secret? Perhaps the other immortals would just assume that Benekander was one of the current immortals under another identity such as the Hel example? Thanks, Mike. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:58:52 -0400 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Need Suggestions for an Immortal > >Or take Benekander, under the > >nom-de-crux or Gareth, preaching Immortal noninterference. > I assume you've established this link between Benekander and Gareth > yourself? I thought it seemed likely myself, but to my knowledge there is > no evidence in any of the published literature. I'm just asking in case > there is and I've overlooked it. Well... it seems only reasonable, since Benekander is against Immortal interference, is just starting to do all that Immortal stuff, and needed a good explanation to pop in out of nowhere. :) Other than that, there's only some strong inferences.. :) > >I'm sure he's interested in Mystara upgrading its technology > >base, perhaps even poking a dimensional hole back to his home.. ;) > BTW, interesting idea about a project for > him to be able to get back home, although I would think that as an Immortal From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 10:18:44 1996 X-UIDL: b904ab24eae781b03888c99955c6c634 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA19013; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 05:39:07 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA16164 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:22:09 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:22:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199604141922.OAA16164@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #96 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk > he'd have the power to do it magically. I guess that's a VERY "far-off" > dimension, eh? :) Just because he's able to pop off to other dimensions, doesn't necessarily mean that he knows quite which dimension he came from. Besides, it's entirely possible that even if he does make it, he'd be in interstellar vacuum, sans magic or Immortal powers, without even a functioning spacesuit, let alone a comm device. Besides, it's been what, 5000 years or so since he last saw anything there? It might have changed a tad in the meantime.. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 21:15:49 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Need Suggestions for an Immortal At 15.58 10/04/96 -0400, Daniel Boese wrote: >> >Or take Benekander, under the >> >nom-de-crux or Gareth, preaching Immortal noninterference. >> I assume you've established this link between Benekander and Gareth >> yourself? I thought it seemed likely myself, but to my knowledge there is >> no evidence in any of the published literature. I'm just asking in case >> there is and I've overlooked it. >Well... it seems only reasonable, since Benekander is against Immortal >interference, is just starting to do all that Immortal stuff, and needed >a good explanation to pop in out of nowhere. :) Other than that, there's >only some strong inferences.. :) Yes, this Gareth=Benekander theory is likely to be true, but I think in PWA there were several other hypotesis on Gareth real identity: maybe he is an Old One, or an ancient and forgotten immortal come back from the dimension of Vortex. However I think we should ask directly Ann Dupuis on this, maybe she can tell us what she had in mind whit Gareth. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: H}vard R|nne Faanes Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:50:55 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] Gareth (was re: Immortal ideas or sth) On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 15.58 10/04/96 -0400, Daniel Boese wrote: > >> >Or take Benekander, under the > >> >nom-de-crux or Gareth, preaching Immortal noninterference. > >> I assume you've established this link between Benekander and Gareth > >> yourself? I thought it seemed likely myself, but to my knowledge there is > >> no evidence in any of the published literature. I'm just asking in case > >> there is and I've overlooked it. > >Well... it seems only reasonable, since Benekander is against Immortal > >interference, is just starting to do all that Immortal stuff, and needed > >a good explanation to pop in out of nowhere. :) Other than that, there's > >only some strong inferences.. :) > > Yes, this Gareth=Benekander theory is likely to be true, but I think in PWA > there were several other hypotesis on Gareth real identity: maybe he is an > Old One, or an ancient and forgotten immortal come back from the dimension > of Vortex. > However I think we should ask directly Ann Dupuis on this, maybe she can > tell us what she had in mind whit Gareth. > I was intrigued by gareth, I would be disappointed if he turned out to be Benekander. I liked the idea of the ancient immortal, or perhaps Old one. I dont really think we should decide on this. I see him as unique and possibly very powerful. There is a lot of potential in this character. Once I read it I thought of a new religion spreading, associating with early Christianity (hmm..hope noone is offended by this) Anyway, I dislike the religious structures of mystara, and it wouldnt hurt if they changed. (over time naturally, like say 200 yrs) Hule deserves a new religion thats for sure, but i also thought about Thyatis.. Doesnt the empire need a religion to keep it together. One Gareth following emperor might do the trick. Again, I look at european history ofcourse. your opinions on this matter? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 18:49:36 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gareth (was re: Immortal ideas or sth) At 13.50 12/04/96 +0200, Haavard Faanes wrote: >On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >> Yes, this Gareth=Benekander theory is likely to be true, but I think in PWA >> there were several other hypotesis on Gareth real identity: maybe he is an >> Old One, or an ancient and forgotten immortal come back from the dimension >> of Vortex. >> However I think we should ask directly Ann Dupuis on this, maybe she can >> tell us what she had in mind whit Gareth. >> > >I was intrigued by gareth, I would be disappointed if he turned out to be >Benekander. I liked the idea of the ancient immortal, or perhaps Old one. >I dont really think we should decide on this. I see him as unique and >possibly very powerful. There is a lot of potential in this character. >Once I read it I thought of a new religion spreading, associating with >early Christianity (hmm..hope noone is offended by this) I had another idea about Gareth: perhaps he is the alter-ego of another powerful immortal, or the Master of Hule who reached immortality and tries to strenghten his grasp on Sind in a subtle way. I know this last idea is not so good, but until we ask Ann Dupuis every idea is good. >Anyway, I dislike the religious structures of mystara, and it wouldnt >hurt if they changed. (over time naturally, like say 200 yrs) > Don't you like the way religious system works in Mystara (immortals and clerics, instead of faiths and churches, except for The People's Temple and maybe some other tiny group) or how it works in some areas ? >Hule deserves a new religion thats for sure, but i also thought about >Thyatis.. >Doesnt the empire need a religion to keep it together. One Gareth >following emperor might do the trick. Again, I look at european history >ofcourse. I like Hulean religion and Hule in general, I think it's a pity there isn't much info (and a good map) available on the Great Hule. About Thyatis, yes, a strong nationwide religion may be useful in keeping it toghether, but the history of a new immortal coming from a far away land to become the main immortal of a roman-like empire is too close to the Christian religion for my taste. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] A Shadow Elf in the Planes... Just a minor point of interest... I picked up the new Planescape supplement Uncaged: The Faces of Sigil, and was surprised to find that one of the NPC's in the book is a Mystaran Shadow Elf. Named Farrow, he was originally part of the Eys of the Serpent, and now uses his talents in Sigil. It seems Mystara is not forgotten by everyone at TSR. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:22:47 -0400 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] A Shadow Elf in the Planes... > I picked up the new Planescape supplement Uncaged: The Faces of Sigil, > and was surprised to find that one of the NPC's in the book is a Mystaran > Shadow Elf. Named Farrow, he was originally part of the Eys of the > Serpent, and now uses his talents in Sigil. ... I don't suppose U:TFoS tells how Farrow made it to Sigil? (I only know the generalities of Planescape). Looks like we might get a final answer to the Planescape vs OD&D Planes debate after all.. (Of course, I still prefer the orignal version. :) ). - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] A Shadow Elf in the Planes... n On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > I picked up the new Planescape supplement Uncaged: The Faces of Sigil, > > and was surprised to find that one of the NPC's in the book is a Mystaran > > Shadow Elf. Named Farrow, he was originally part of the Eys of the > > Serpent, and now uses his talents in Sigil. > > ... I don't suppose U:TFoS tells how Farrow made it to Sigil? (I > only know the generalities of Planescape). Looks like we might get a > final answer to the Planescape vs OD&D Planes debate after all.. (Of > course, I still prefer the orignal version. :) ). The book gives a quick history about him spying in Glantri, pissing off a wizard and being hucked through a gate. No hard and fast details on how Mystara fits into the rest of the Planescape setting. And is there really a debate? Some people like Planescape, and so will use it with Mystara. Some people don't like it, or don't know about it, so they use the original OD&D planar concepts. Objectively speaking, neither is superior; it is all a matter of personal preference. As I have indicated in the past, I am one of the former. Planescape is a rich, original setting, one that I find quite inspiring. IMHO both PS and Mystara are enriched by the connection. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your world is dying, a shell of existence whose time has come to an end. I am here to show you rebirth, an evolution of being. The fact that millions shall die is of no consequence" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tiamat, _Darkglory_ ------------------------------ From: H}vard R|nne Faanes Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:38:40 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] [mystara] regarding the FAQ I dont see why we shouldnt have Fluff here... Could we have that paragraph removed? I see why Fluff is not allowed at the GURPS list, since there are so many active participants on that list. Im just stating my opinion here,,,do you disagree? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:12:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] [mystara] regarding the FAQ At 06:38 PM 4/14/96 +0200, you wrote: >I dont see why we shouldnt have Fluff here... >Could we have that paragraph removed? >I see why Fluff is not allowed at the GURPS list, since there are so many >active participants on that list. >Im just stating my opinion here,,,do you disagree? My 2 kopecs: I'd rather see posts that give pointers to fluff than the fluff itself on the list. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 20:51:16 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] [mystara] regarding the FAQ At 13.12 14/04/96 -0400, you wrote: >At 06:38 PM 4/14/96 +0200, you wrote: >>I dont see why we shouldnt have Fluff here... >>Could we have that paragraph removed? >>I see why Fluff is not allowed at the GURPS list, since there are so many >>active participants on that list. >>Im just stating my opinion here,,,do you disagree? > > My 2 kopecs: I'd rather see posts that give pointers to fluff than >the fluff itself on the list. > Me too. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #96 **************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 16 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 097 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, H}vard R|nne Faanes wrote: > I dont see why we shouldnt have Fluff here... The reason fluff is not allowed on the list is simple: most people have no interest in it (from my experience, anyway). Besides, there are a variety of easily accessible ways to get fluff to the people who want it, including newsgroups, web pages, and FTP sites. As the FAQ indicates, pointers to fluff are OK. Which means those who are interested can check it out, while those who aren't don't have to deal with it. > Could we have that paragraph removed? Only if I recieve enough responses stating that it should be changed. This list is not a facist dictatorship; if change is desired, it will happen. But until then the rule stands. > Im just stating my opinion here,,,do you disagree? As you can tell I do disagree. But the rules are not based exclusively on my own opinions. They are based on what I percieve as the desire of the majority. And the only way I can know my perceptions are incorrect is by the majority telling me so. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 21:32 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... I have no objection to fluff on the list, preferably good quality. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: "D.J. Sahlas" Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... I have no objection to fluff on the list either. I don't think that the list would get deluged with the stuff, anyway. And people could always nix it if they don't want to read it. (Although I understand objections to fluff, too). Just my two drachmas, Jim Sahlas ------------------------------ From: Herve MUSSEAU Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 12:46:19 METDST Subject: [Mystara] events for New Alphatia 1013-1014 This is just what it looks like, tell me if you like it or if there's anything you would change or add or delete. All of this is also available via my homepage, in text, word6 or HTML format. http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh/index.html Events for the New Alphatian Confederated Empire and the Alatians (except Aegos) for the years AC 1013 and 1014. Nuwmont 2, 1013: Assault on Blackrock Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock. Description: The combined forces of Seashield and Bellissaria, under the direction of Commander in Chief Broderick, invade Blackrock on the Esterhold Peninsula. Numerous troops disembark from submersible galleys in Skyfyr's harbor, while ships disgorge more troops at the outer limits of the city and in other strategic places all around the kingdom. At the same time, the rebels, warned of the incoming assault by Favian Vern, again leave their underground hideouts and participate in the attack with arms supplied by Commander Broderick. What This Means: With the full military and magical support of all member kingdoms of the New Alphatian Confederated Empire, Commander Broderick should swiftly put an end to King Xanthus's oppressive rule in the city of Skyfyr. Nuwmont 10, 1013: Combat in Blackrock Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock. Description: Fighting continues in the streets of Skyfyr. Despite the ongoing onslaught of the more numerous troops of the NACE, King Xanthus's loyal troops stand firm_they were prepared for the invasion. Though it is not completely repaired, Xanthus's flying man-o-war participates in the defense of the city and the palace. Part of the city is no more under his control, however, as is most of the country outside of Skyfyr. Nuwmont 14, 1013: Xanthus Asks for Help Location: Faraway, Verdan. Description: King Xanthus's top advisor, Bargle, meets King Nicodemus of Verdan. He asks him to commit troops to the defense of Blackrock, for, he says, if Blackrock falls, so will Verdan. King Nicodemus answers he has no troops to spare, since he himself has problems with rebellious Jennites. Moreover, Broderick's troops block all routes between the two countries: Verdan navy is no match for the Alphatian ships and submersibles, and the inland roads are under Broderick's control. Nuwmont 23, 1013: Skyship Produced in Aeria Location: Aeria, Alatian Islands. Description: The first skyship is launched in the skies of Aeria. It is a military skyship; Headmaster Aiklin declares that, since his country is independent from both Thyatis and Alphatia, it will build its own skynavy, central to its future army. What This Means: The skyship prototypes constructed by the magical college for the Thyatians these last years had been systematically sabotaged by Alphatian loyalists. Now that Aeria has been granted independence, they have stopped their sabotages, and thanks to the research done under Thyatian's control, the first Aerian skyship can go on her maiden flight today. Master Aiklin knows this is a risky move, since Thyatis still has troops stationed on nearby Aegos, but he hopes the Thyatians won't break the Isle of Dawn Treaty, all the more since it could cause tension with the newly-formed NACE. Nuwmont 25, 1013: Xanthus's Troops Retreat to Palace Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock. Description: The remaining troops loyal to King Xantus, hardpressed by Broderick's, retreat to the royal palace in Skyfyr, the last place they control. The rest of the city is now under Broderick's military control. Vatermont 1, 1013: Hard-Ball Season Canceled Location: Ionace. Description: The Council of the NACE announces there will be no Hard-Ball season this year because few teams have had time to train, and the Super-Hard-Ball stadium is not ready on Ionace. All member states of the NACE are invited to form teams for the next year. Vatermont 2, 1013: Floating Ar Joins the NACE Location: Floating Ar. Description: King Qissling of Floating Ar reportedly agrees to join the New Alphatian Confederated Empire. What This Means: Floating Ar becomes the 8th country of the Confederacy. Vatermont 9, 1013: Floating Ar Asks for Permission to Move Location: Ionace. Description: King Qissling of Floating Ar asks to the Council the permission to move the floating islands some 350 miles northeastward, right above the unclaimed Yannivey Islands, and use them to grow crops in the forthcoming years. The Council agrees. What This Means: Since the disappearance of Alphatia, Floating Ar has been almost totally dependent on not-so-nearby states to get supplies_especially food. Realizing the situation could not last forever_and fearing food shortage if a problem would happen_, they opted for that solution. The Yannivey is a lawless land, sparsely inhabited by monsters and brigands. Vatermont 8, 1013: Blackrock Falls Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock. Description: The last of King Xanthus's troops in Skyfyr surrender to Commander Broderick. Xanthus himself escapes to sanctuary in Verdan, where King Nicodemus prepares his own troops for the expected invasion by the New Alphatian forces. Commander Broderick designates Favian Vern as governor of the country for all non-military aspects, until the Alphatian Council elects a new king. Vatermont 19, 1013: A New King for Blackrock Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock. Description: The Alphatian Council names Favian Vern King of Blackrock. As his first official act, King Favian declares all Jennite natives of Esterhold free_no longer are they to be slaves or denied Alphatian citizenship. There is much rejoicing in the streets of Skyfyr. Chaos soon follows as the various strata of Blackrock society adjust to the new order_but King Favian and his appointed government prove themselves equal to each new challenge. What This Means: King Favian receives financial, as well as military and political, support from the Council. Flaurmont 22, 1013: Alpha Joins the NACE Location: Alpha, Norwold. Description: King Ericall declares Alpha is the 10th member of the Confederacy. What This Means: Ericall thinks this is the best defense against the Heldannic progression. He asks for troops in exchange. Thaumont 4, 1013: Floating Ar Flies North Location: Floating Ar. Description: Floating Ar begins its long trip north to the Yannivey Islands. What This Means: This involves much magic, especially aerial magic. Wizards from all over the NACE participate, since it is a great occasion to improve their knowledge of aerial magic and the way mortal magic interacts with immortal magic (ie the Isles themselves). The magical college of Aeria also throws in its knowledge. The trip will not be without a problem, however, since many powerful wizards of Ar continue their dangerous experiments while their estates are being moved. Yarthmont 10, 1013: Thothia Joins the NACE Location: Edairo, Thothia. Description: Pharaoh Ramenhotep XXIV of Thothia signs a treaty granting him a seat on the New Alphatian Council and adding Thothia to the New Alphatian Confederated Empire. The Pharaoh also declares that East Portage, Ekto and Trikelios are now independent from Thothia, but they also join the Confederacy. What This Means: The Confederacy has four new members, and gains a firm presence on the Isle of Dawn. The three small kingdoms are granted financial aid by the Council to help in the rebuilding after the war. Yarthmont 27, 1013: Alpha Gets Extra Troops Location: Alpha. Description: After joining the NACE, King Ericall asked for more troops to help him stand ground against further Heldannic incursions. Commander Broderick dispatches some available units in Alpha. What This Means: Ericall does not intent to use these troops offensively_he already finds it difficult just defending the few territories that remain loyal to him. He hopes the Heldannic Knights will see this as a sign that the NACE will back him if they should invade. Klarmont 19, 1013: Parliament Completed Location: Ionace. Description: The new Parliament building, that will from now on hold the Alphatian Council's meetings, is completed. It is located near the city of old Denwarf-Hurgon, and most of the Representations and Embassies are still temporary assigned to buildings in the dwarven city. What This Means: This location has been chosen because many of the buildings of Denwarf-Hurgon remained fully functional despite the sinking of Alphatia and the numerous earthquakes. Upper Denwarf-Hurgon has been freed of monsters, and its buildings may be used by the Council as it sees fit. The construction of the Parliament made heavy use of magic, both to speed up the process and to secure the building from magical scrying, uncontrolled teleportation, and such. Fyrmont 12, 1013: Earthquake in the Alphatian Sea Location: Alphatian Sea and surrounding countries. Description: A more powerful than usual earthquakes in the Alphatian Sea makes some damages on Ionace, and doesn't help in the redigging of the Pit on Aegos either. What This Means: Minor earthquakes happen quite often since the sinking of Alphatia, but it was time since the last major one. Sages still work on discovering when this will end_or at least on predicting the major ones. As Ionace is near the epicenter, the earthquake causes important damage there: mnemonic mineral mines collapse, hastily-built buildings in the city of Sanctuary don't resist, but the dwarven-built Denwarf-Hurgon and the most recent official buildings and houses do resist. What the PCs Can Do: Well-equipped rescue teams are needed_and may well find themselves trapped by further collapses caused by minor earthquakes the following days. Ambyrmont 3, 1013: Floating Ar Drops Anchor Location: New Floating Ar position, above the Yannivey Islands. Description: Floating Ar has completed its relocation to the Yannivey. Those who helped are rewarded as promised. King Qissling declares the Yannivey are now part Floating Ar; everyone can help in gaining effective control of the land. Those who seize control of land and register to the royal palace are automatically granted that land; if they are name-level spellcasters they also gain a title in the process. Territory seized by troops dispatched by the NACE, or by mercenaries hired by King Qissling, become property of the crown. Commander Broderick recalls some troops from Blackrock for the occasion. What the PCs Can Do: This is a formidable opportunity for high-level PCs to gain dominions, and titles if they happen to be spellcasters. They will soon discover that they are not viewed as equals by wizards who own an estate on the floating islands. Even if the PCs are low-level, they can find employment as mercenaries. Nuwmont 7, 1014: Karameikos Recognizes the NACE Location: Mirros, Karameikos. Description: King Stefan Karameikos officially announces his country opens up diplomatic ties with the NACE. The Karameikan Embassy is to be moved from Aquas to Ionace. King Stefan also grants favored trading status to the Confederacy. What This Means: Karameikos is the first country to officially recognize the legitimacy of the Council. Since Empress Eriadna recognized Karameikos's independence a few years ago, the two countries have maintained diplomatic ties with each other, but under Zandor's rule this didn't mean much. The two countries have had few trading relations up to now, but this can well change_King Stefan especially hopes it will improve magical stuff exchange. The two countries are not likely to become military allies or to suppress tariffs altogether, however, since Karameikos is part of the Western Defense League and as such cannot take such decisions alone_and its allies would probably be more than reluctant, especially Ylaruam. Nuwmont 13, 1014: Qeodhar Joins the NACE Location: Farend, Qeodhar. Description: King Norlan reluctantly agrees to join the New Alphatian Confederated Empire. He says to the Council that he can't place his troop sunder Commander Broderick's command yet, because they are busy repelling many monsters that cross the ice floe thanks to the cold winter. He only accepts to send troops to the Yannivey Islands to help Floating Ar taking over the isles. What This Means: Baron Norlan had always considered Zandor's petty empire as no threat to him, and he thought it would be the same with the NACE. But the offensive on Blackrock and the arrival of Floating Ar above the Yannivey Islands made him realize he was one of the last territories of now-sunken Alphatia that was still independent from the Confederacy. They may well decide to remove him if he continued to ignore their diplomats. After all, the Confederacy seems to be military and magic rich despite the disappearance of Alphatia. Norlan doesn't want to lose his time attending the Council meetings, however, but what he doesn't know is that this will prevent him from discovering Alphatia's survival within the Hollow World_something that could also have explained his wife's disappearance. Norlan is currently trying to devise a way to keep his army under his sole control; he particularly doesn't want his troops to help in overthrowing the kings of Esterhold. Vatermont 1, 1014: Opening of Hard-Ball Season Location: Ionace. Description: The Council of the NACE declares the Hard-Ball season open. Inscription of teams is closed today. For two months, the different teams meet each other; only one per country shall remain for the Super-Hard-Ball in the month of Flaurmont (matches between teams from different countries are friendly, mostly exhibitions). The Council also announces that Karameikos and Aeria are invited to participate in the event. What This Means: All nations of the NACE have made an effort so that they all have at least one team that participates this year, and the stadium has been completed on Ionace. Master Terari has made his best for years to develop Hard-Ball in Karameikos; he is responsible for the participation of the country in the Tournament_as well as for the good relations the Kingdom maintains with the Confederacy. The participation of Aeria is also a political coup to show it is on good terms with the Confederacy_and is accompanied by an exchange of ambassadors. Vatermont 1, 1014: Aeria Opens Embassy on Ionace Location: Aeria, Alatian Islands. Description: Headmaster Aiklin of Aeria agrees to open up diplomatic ties with the New Alphatian Confederated Empire. He also reassures that students from all around the NACE are welcome in the magical college of air magics. What This Means: This is yet another coup against Thyatis. It is obvious to all that Aeria is aligned with the NACE, although it remains independent for the time being (as per the Isle of Dawn Treaty). The official From ???@??? Thu Apr 18 11:02:09 1996 X-UIDL: 74474c9d2959b57d9513f3917dcf62c1 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA10492; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:05:15 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA03103 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:34:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:34:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199604170334.WAA03103@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #97 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk announce is also accompanied by a secret military pact stating that Aeria's skynavy can be hired as mercenary by the Commander in Chief of the NACE in exchange for a promise of military intervention should Thyatis ever try to take Aeria by force. Most students of the college were already drawn from the ranks of former Alphatian territories; there is nothing surprising in that part of the Headmaster's allocution. Vatermont 18, 1014: Qeodharian Troops Land on the Yanniveys Location: Yannivey Islands. Description: The few troops Baron Norlan sent to assist Floating Ar arrive and place themselves under the command of the general of Floating Ar_himself appointed by Commander Broderick. What This Means: It is only a token help, most of Norlan's troops stayed at home. Moreover, the conquest of the Yannivey is already almost over. Vatermont 21, 1014: King Norlan Reorganizes his Army Location: Farend, Qeodhar. Description: Baron Norlan splits up his army into three distinct bodies: the Army, the Police and the Special Force. The Army represents 60% of the total numbers, and is placed under the jurisdiction of Commander in Chief Broderick of the NACE. The Police represents 30% of the old army, an is in charge of patrolling the cities, arresting people and similar duties. Although policemen can use arms and armors, they are not considered an armed force and as such remain under Norlan's control. The Special Force is a secret service, mostly spies and assassins, who are basically the most able 10% of the old army. They don't have any official existence, and their actions are always covert ones_few people know that force exists. What This Means: Baron Norlan didn't want to lose the power his army brought him. Thanks to that trick he keeps control of 40% of it_and even creates a secret service. The other 60% (ie the Army) are now under Broderick's control. Thaumont 6, 1014: Favian Tries Diplomacy Location: Faraway, Verdan. Description: King Favian Vern sends diplomats to discuss with King Nicodemus of Verdan of a way to avoid a useless war between their two kingdoms. Favian's messengers affirm King Nicodemus and ex-King Xanthus will be allowed to leave freely, with all who want to go with them and with all treasure they want, if he accepts to relinquish all claims to Verdan. King Nicodemus has them arrested and executed. What This Means: Nicodemus is confident in his army. He has always stopped Jennite invasion coming from the wild east, and has crushed all slave unrests easily. He knows the rebels are not as well organized here as they were in Blackrock. He has prepared his army for the event, which has been reinforced last year by the remains of Xanthus's, including the now-repaired flying man-o-war. What the PCs Can Do: The PCs can be the messengers sent by King Favian. If they are convincing enough, they may even prevent a bloody war and be well rewarded_or they will have to devise a plan to escape from Faraway's dungeons before they get executed. Thaumont 17, 1014: Hard-Ball Stadium Completed Location: Ionace. Description: The Stadium that will host the Super-Hard-Ball matches in Flaurmont is completed just in time on Ionace. What This Means: The Council declared the season opened the first day of Vatermont, although the stadium what not yet completed at the time. Magic has been used to speed it up. Thaumont 20, 1014: Assault on Verdan Location: Verdan. Description: Although he has troops stationed in Alpha and the Yanniveys, Commander Broderick decides for the invasion of Verdan. Knowing his submersible galleys will be no surprise, Broderick decides to attack from different directions at the same time. Of course, he puts his submersibles and ships into position on the Verdan coast and Faraway's harbor, with marines pouring out of them, but he also leads infantry through the woods of Esterhold from the port cities of Anchorage to the west and Rock Harbor to the south. At the same time, some Jennite tribes leads skirmishes on the eastern forts_thanks to Broderick's gold. The Jennite slaves in Faraway, hoping at the sight of the foreign troops, cause some trouble within the city_although they are largely disorganized. King Nicodemus didn't expect such an all-out assault, and finds it difficult to battle on all fronts at the same time. The undefended interior land quickly falls to Broderick's marching troops; only the capital and the three eastern forts remain uncaptured, though they become isolated from each other. Thaumont 25, 1014: Faraway Besieged Location: Verdan. Description: Surprised by the way things turned out, King Nicodemus decides to throw all of his forces into the battle. His divisions have been more or less able to keep the Alphatian armies at bay so far, although the rest of the land is probably no more his_except perhaps the eastern forts. He fears an uprising of the Jennite slaves, however, and he knows he would have a hard time fighting it with all his troops busy repelling the Confederated Army. So he decides to strike with Xanthus's man-o-war, and delights in the sight of the ship blasting squads of attackers trying to break through. Suddenly, three more skyships appear in the sky, and shoot at the man-o-war. The ship soon crashes to the ground, damaged beyond repair. The Jennite slaves cheer at the sight of the crashing ship, and seize the opportunity to rebel again. Attacked from sea, air, land, and from inside the city, the Verdan troops find themselves overwhelmed and must retreat to the palace where they rally. By the end of the day, most of the city has been conquered. Many Verdan masters are assassinated by their rebelling slaves, and small groups of loyalist troops that find themselves surrounded by rebels are butchered_the Verdan soldiers do the same with the groups of rebels they encounter. What This Means: Broderick knew of Xanthus's ship, so he hired skyships recently produced in allied Aeria. He didn't put them to work immediately, however, rather preferring to surprise Nicodemus and Xanthus. His tactic proved successful, because the destruction of the two kings' ace caused their armies' rout. Broderick himself is surprised by the rapidity with which he has taken most of the land, and hopes this will not cause Thyatis to react with hostility. Broderick now does his best to prevent the rebels from murdering everyone of Alphatian descent they see_he knows the surrender of the palace and the forts is only a matter of time. Flaurmont 1, 1014: Super-Hard-Ball Tournament Begins Location: Ionace. Description: All teams that have qualified arrive on Ionace today. The 17 teams will meet each other in the Super-Hard-Ball stadium; the final will be held on Flaurmont 28 between the two best teams. What This Means: When the Super-Hard-Ball tournament was created, there has been some arguing within the Council as to whether it was to be held in a different member state each year or on Ionace. It was decided that there were too many member states to use the round-robin method, and that tourism could help developing Ionace. Flaurmont 7, 1014: Forts Surrender Location: Eastern forts, Verdan. Description: The commanders of the forts protecting Verdan from the Jennite tribes, now under siege by Alphatian troops for more than two weeks, decide to surrender. Since the Jennite tribes have been driven active in the region_thanks to Broderick himself, who didn't think this would be useless_the forts remain manned as usual, though authority passes to the Alphatians. Most of the men that are no more needed here are sent north to Faraway to help in the taking of the city. Flaurmont 18, 1014: Verdan Surrenders Location: Faraway, Verdan. Description: The troops pinned in the royal palace in Faraway discover that King Nicodemus has fled the palace by an unknown mean, probably magic or a secret exit. Without their leader, and with their supplies running low, they decide to surrender to Commander Broderick. What This Means: Broderick has neutralized all pockets of resistance in the meanwhile, and this surrender means he is in complete control of the land. He sends most of his troops back home, to their respective countries. Nicodemus is on the run, and no one knows what happened to Xanthus when his skyship crashed, or even if he was on board. Flaurmont 28, 1014: Super-Hard-Ball Final Location: Ionace. Description: All teams, including that from Karameikos, fought great matches during the whole month. All Council members and ambassadors, as well as many nobles and commoners alike, assist today to the final of the Super-Hard-Ball between the teams of Aquas and Dawnrim. After a long, disputed match, Aquas prevails. What This Means: This first season of Hard-Ball was a real success. Yarthmont 11, 1014: Council Discusses on Verdan's Future Location: Ionace. Description: The Council of the New Alphatian Confederated Empire discusses on the future of Verdan. They think they should name a Jennite king to rule the country, since an Alphatian would probably viewed with suspicion, or even hostility by the natives. Unfortunately, the rebels have never been much organized there, and there is no obvious strong leader. King Favian of Blackrock then comes up with an interesting, through unusual, alternative: He proposes to regroup all of the territories of the Esterhold Peninsula into a single state, the Republic of Esterhold, which would be governed by an elected ruler. It would be composed of provinces, each with an elected governor, who elect the president. Elections could occur every seven years; when there is a tie for the naming of the president, the Council decides. The governor would be the ruler of his own province, and the president would decide on matters concerning the republic as a whole, or for events involving more than one province, the Council or territories outside the provinces. The Council decides to take the time to think about it, and decide during another meeting. Yarthmont 13, 1014: Gaity in Chaos Location: Gaity, Alatian Islands. Description: Gaity goes into a complete state of chaos, as most of the petty baron compete for more land, and eventually for the kingship of the island. There is much political intrigue, assassinations attempts, wars, and more between the ex-Thyatian dominion rulers. Neither Thyatis_which has troops stationed on nearby Aegos_nor the New Alphatian Confederated Empire, intervene. What This Means: Since the island has been granted independence from both Thyatis and Alphatia by the Isle of Dawn Treaty, the country has always been in a state of chaos. Escalation happens today, as a baron military attacks his neighbors and declares himself king. What the PCs Can Do: If the PCs have been granted dominion on the island when it was part of the Thyatian Empire, they can't avoid of being involved in the events. They can even become the undisputed leaders of Gaity, but that shouldn't happen before they lead their armies to successful wars. Yarthmont 23, 1014: Council Decides on Esterhold Location: Ionace. Description: The Alphatian Council approves King Favian's proposition concerning the Esterhold Peninsula. The Peninsula becomes the Republic of Esterhold, with a full seat at the Council. It is composed of five provinces: The Province of Anchorage (provincial capital: Anchorage), the Province of Blackrock (provincial capital: Skyfyr), the Province of Marlin (provincial capital: Port Marlin), the Province of Southrock (provincial capital: Rock Harbor), and the Province of Verdan (provincial capital: Faraway). The central region, composed mainly of desert, broken lands and other badlands, is under the direct administration of the President. Favian Vern is named President of Esterhold until elections can be organized, ie until the situation is stabilized. He is charged with appointing temporary governors until the elections. Fyrmont 26, 1014: Ne'er-do-well Reaffirms its Independence Location: Ne'er-do-well, Alatian Islands. Description: King Koryn the Harpist sends messengers to Ionace, informing the Council that Ne'er-do- well is an independent nation but friendly with the world, and that ships from all over the Confederacy are welcome to make use of the ports just as any other mercantile nation may. What This Means: Ne'er-do-well intends to remain independent from both Thyatis and the NACE, while trading with both_and preying upon both nations' ships too. Commander Broderick has better to do with his troops than invading the isles. Sviftmont 21, 1014: Helskir Contacts the NACE Location: Ionace. Description: Messengers from King Eruul Zaar and Queen Asteriela Torion of Helskir ask for an audience between the Alphatian Council and their King and Queen. A meeting is called for the following day. Sviftmont 22, 1014: Helskir Meets the Council Location: Ionace. Description: King Eruul Zaar and Queen Asteriela Torion teleport to the Parliament on Ionace, where they meet with the kings of the Alphatian Confederacy. Queen Asteriela first informs the Council that she knows about the survival of Alphatia and Empress Eriadna within the Hollow World_the crew of the Flying Fish told her so four years ago_, so they can discuss freely about the future of the region. She tells that now that Zandor has been deposed, the situation may only better_but unfortunately Helskir has agreed to become part of the Thyatian Empire before the event happened, and cannot leave it for the NACE without provoking her brother's wrath and destabilizing the relative stability on the Isle of Dawn. However, Helskir has kept its status of Kingdom and as such can establish diplomatic ties with the Confederacy. This would be a way of communicating between the two empires, and maybe preventing tensions or even wars. The Council agrees to open up diplomatic ties with Helskir. Eirmont 12, 1014: Dunadale Contacts the NACE Location: Province of Dunadale, Isle of Dawn. Description: The Thyatian Province of Dunadale, whose citizens are mostly of Alphatian descent, declares it will open up diplomatic ties with the New Alphatian Confederated Empire, like Helskir the previous month. What This Means: The Thyatian governor of the province did this to please his citizens, as he was fearing an uprising. He hopes this won't upset Emperor Eusebius. - -- Herve Musseau Email: musseauh@esiee.fr Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Mon, 15 Apr 96 20:41:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- My first experience on the internet, over three years ago, was a flame from some teenager who was twenty years younger than I. He ranted in a most condescending fashion about how inappropriate it was for me to have posted my question to that particular newsgroup. That left a pretty sour taste in my mouth that still hasn't left. I've never understood the "rules" that people try to impose on enthusiasts on the net. I'm afraid that I don't see any reason that members of a Mystara mailing list shouldn't post fiction set in Mystara to that list. I think it would be of greater general interest than at least some posts, and certainly an excellent source for ideas and a venue for communicating the author's unique view of the world. The only possible complaint I can anticipate is the additional download time involved in a large post. Quite frankly, I wouldn't think that's much of an issue. Read what you like. Skip what doesn't interest you. We're subscribers because this is a rare source of creative material for a product we enjoy. Why shouldn't this be a collection of all relevant information, one source for everything? One man's gold is another's dross. I suppose my "vote" is obvious, but I still don't see the necessity. Rather, why not ask for a significant number of legitimate objections? Shelby Michlin ------------------------------ From: Randir Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... I have to agree that "fluff" should be allowed on this list, not because I like seeing lots of terribly written adventure excerpts, but rather, that the most effective way to detail a setting is through the eyes of the people who live there. Afterall, if done in good taste it would be in the tradition of the "What Everybody Knows" sections in the Gazateer series. Speaking from personal experience these were the most useful parts of each Gaz. [some of you may also be aware of fact that I also hammering TSR personel with this same fact... to bad they don't keep Mystara up they way it once was... :{ - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- | randir | go through the lofty spaces of the aether,| |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| and wherever you are borne, | | fnn@le.ac.uk | bear witness that there are no gods. | | www.canisius.edu/~goehrigd | -seneca `medea' | - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #97 **************************** mystara-digest Friday, 19 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 098 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:58:06 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Home-Spun Adventure Modules? On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, strawberryJAMM wrote: > For example, I'm just finishing up putting together a nice little adventure > in Darokin City and Akorros for the D&D group I'm currently DM'ing, and it's > all nicely formatted in Word 2.x for Windows, with boxed text, maps, treasure > prices, etc. etc. I did all the work mostly for myself because I *like* having > something that is easy to read rather than a mess of chicken scratch notes, > however, I tend to write my personal modules as if it were a "real" module > that others might use too. So, once it's really done, and probably after > I've finished Play-Testing it with my little band of guinea-pigs, would > anyone on the list be interested? > > I wouldn't post it, but would be willing to provide a short "synopsis" > that didn't give away too much (in case PC eyes are watching) and either > offer to e-mail an encoded copy of it to individuals who were interested > or to Leroy to put up in the e-mail archives. If people like this idea, > perhaps others could share their Mystara Based Adventures? Im interested...(in fact im interested in any mystara stuff so...) please send it to me :) Haavard Faanes hoc@nvg.unit.no ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 21:30:31 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Spell cost I know that the value of gold pieces varies according to the DM, but I'm interested in how much do you charge for casting on the party spells such as: remove curse, heal, cure disease, raise dead, stone to flesh and the like. If you post your cost tables (if any) to the list, we can try to make a Standard Spell Cost Chart with various modifiers to apply according to who cast the spells, where we are... I wait for you answers. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Fluff? An Official Call For Votes... Over the last couple of days of days there have been a half dozen or so opinions on whether fluff should be allowed on the list. Well, let it not be said that I am a despot. I believe an official vote on the subject is in order. So, if you have an opinion on whether or not original, fictional stories based in Mystara should be allowed here on the mailing list, send a yes or no to either of my addresses (just replying would be easiest). Please, do not clutter up the list with this (not that the list is busy at the moment, but it does take up space in the digest.) Of course, feel free to discuss the matter on the list. Comments should be put here instead of in your vote. This poll will go on for about a week. Thank you. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Mathew Tillman Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 21:53:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff? An Official Call For Votes... Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > > Over the last couple of days of days there have been a half dozen or > so opinions on whether fluff should be allowed on the list. > Well, let it not be said that I am a despot. I believe an official > vote on the subject is in order. So, if you have an opinion on whether or > not original, fictional stories based in Mystara should be allowed here on > the mailing list, send a yes or no to either of my addresses (just > replying would be easiest). Please, do not clutter up the list with this > (not that the list is busy at the moment, but it does take up space in the > digest.) > Of course, feel free to discuss the matter on the list. Comments > should be put here instead of in your vote. > This poll will go on for about a week. > Leroy Van Camp III > "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." > MST3K I'd be inclined to say "Yes", as I enjoy original stories. Matt Tillman tillman@onslowonline.net ------------------------------ From: Jason MURPHY Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:29:05 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Home-Spun Adventure Modules? On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, strawberryJAMM wrote: > > > For example, I'm just finishing up putting together a nice little adventure > > in Darokin City and Akorros for the D&D group I'm currently DM'ing, and it's > > all nicely formatted in Word 2.x for Windows, with boxed text, maps, treasure > > prices, etc. etc. I did all the work mostly for myself because I *like* having > > something that is easy to read rather than a mess of chicken scratch notes, > > however, I tend to write my personal modules as if it were a "real" module > > that others might use too. So, once it's really done, and probably after > > I've finished Play-Testing it with my little band of guinea-pigs, would > > anyone on the list be interested? > > > > I wouldn't post it, but would be willing to provide a short "synopsis" > > that didn't give away too much (in case PC eyes are watching) and either > > offer to e-mail an encoded copy of it to individuals who were interested > > or to Leroy to put up in the e-mail archives. If people like this idea, > > perhaps others could share their Mystara Based Adventures? > > > Im interested...(in fact im interested in any mystara stuff so...) > please send it to me :) > > Haavard Faanes > hoc@nvg.unit.no > I am intersted too. Any modules please send them my way. Jason Murphy st952a19@echidna.cowan.edu.au ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:07:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Home-Spun Adventure Modules? >> I wouldn't post it, but would be willing to provide a short "synopsis" >> that didn't give away too much (in case PC eyes are watching) and either >> offer to e-mail an encoded copy of it to individuals who were interested >> or to Leroy to put up in the e-mail archives. If people like this idea, >> perhaps others could share their Mystara Based Adventures? > > >Im interested...(in fact im interested in any mystara stuff so...) >please send it to me :) > I'd love to see some good Mystara adventures. Post those synopsises and I'll try to get my chicken-scratching act together and find some of my own to post. :-) Also, I agree about the fluff. As long as people aren't posting 250k+ text files it's annoyance effect is minimal compared to how good some of the really well written ones can be. People posting fluff should also make it clear in the subject line it's a story or the like. That way everyone can decide what to do with it before opening it. - -Bob ------------------------------ From: Herve MUSSEAU Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 17:29:53 METDST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... Ok, some agree, some disagree, but has any of you read the fluff I sent (and that is the cause of the whole thread..)? - -- Herve Musseau Email: musseauh@esiee.fr Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 18:09:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Home-Spun Adventure Modules? - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > From: Jenni A. Merrifield \ Internet: (jam@wimsey.com) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > >...So, once it's really done, and probably after I've > finished Play-Testing it with my little band of guinea-pigs, would anyone on > the list be interested? > > I wouldn't post it, but would be willing to provide a short "synopsis" that > didn't give away too much (in case PC eyes are watching) and either offer to > e-mail an encoded copy of it to individuals who were interested or to Leroy to > put up in the e-mail archives. If people like this idea, perhaps others could > share their Mystara Based Adventures? - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- I'd really love to see it! If you don't post it, please email me! TIA, Shelby ------------------------------ From: esp109@psu.edu (Eduardo Polanco) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:08:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Home-Spun Adventure Modules? At 09:36 PM 4/16/96 PDT, mystara-l@io.com wrote: > All this recent talk about Fluff on the list (which, BTW, I don't have >anything against. I read it if I feel like it or it hits the bit bucket >if I don't...) has got me wondering about a similar topic: Home Spun >Adventure Modules. > > For example, I'm just finishing up putting together a nice little adventure >in Darokin City and Akorros for the D&D group I'm currently DM'ing, and it's >all nicely formatted in Word 2.x for Windows, with boxed text, maps, treasure >prices, etc. etc. I did all the work mostly for myself because I *like* having >something that is easy to read rather than a mess of chicken scratch notes, >however, I tend to write my personal modules as if it were a "real" module >that others might use too. So, once it's really done, and probably after >I've finished Play-Testing it with my little band of guinea-pigs, would >anyone on the list be interested? > I would definitely be interested in your adventure. Please send me a copy. Ed Polanco esp109@psu.edu esp109@psuvm.psu.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Get busy living or get busy dying." -Andy Dufrain, Shawshank Redemption "Every man dies, but not every man really lives." -William Wallace, Braveheart ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 00:32:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff? An Official Call For Votes... At 09:53 PM 4/17/96 -0700, Matt Tillman wrote: >> So, if you have an opinion on whether or >> not original, fictional stories based in Mystara should be allowed here on >> the mailing list, send a yes or no to either of my addresses (just >> replying would be easiest). Please, do not clutter up the list with this >> (not that the list is busy at the moment, but it does take up space in the >> digest.) >I'd be inclined to say "Yes", as I enjoy original stories. People should be aware that just replying to Leroy's message may not be failsafe. Some email programs will default replies to the list and result in the above, which was explicitly mentioned as something to be avoided. So if you haven't voted yet and plan to, be sure your To: line reads either owner-mystara-l@io.com OR van891@uidaho.edu BUT NOT mystara-l@io.com Thanks, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Jason Zavoda Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... Greetings All I was wondering if we could work out a middle ground with fluff. Instead of posting a story directly to the list, post a notice that a story is available and all interested parties can email the writer of the story for a copy. If there is enough interest in such material then someone can start a seperate mailing list just for it. I would not want to see this list turn into a storytelling list even though I am interested in reading and writing Mystara fiction myself. Jason Zavoda On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Herve MUSSEAU wrote: > Ok, some agree, some disagree, but has any of you read the fluff I sent (and > that is the cause of the whole thread..)? > > -- > Herve Musseau > Email: musseauh@esiee.fr > Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh > ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:15:51 -0400 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Home-Spun Adventure Modules? > I wouldn't post it, but would be willing to provide a short "synopsis" > that didn't give away too much (in case PC eyes are watching) and either > offer to e-mail an encoded copy of it to individuals who were interested > or to Leroy to put up in the e-mail archives. If people like this idea, > perhaps others could share their Mystara Based Adventures? Add my vote to the list; I'd enjoy reading it. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:09:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... At 07:27 AM 4/18/96 -0400, Jason Zavoda wrote: > I was wondering if we could work out a middle ground with fluff. >Instead of posting a story directly to the list, post a notice that a >story is available and all interested parties can email the writer of >the story for a copy. If there is enough interest in such material then >someone can start a seperate mailing list just for it. I would not want to >see this list turn into a storytelling list even though I am interested >in reading and writing Mystara fiction myself. As far as I understand, posting notices is already allowed. The voting and discussion going on is about complete texts being posted to the list. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Derek Adam Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 22:16 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... [de-lurk] Early Warning: ============== This is a fairly tiresome explanation of my opinions concerning fluff on the list. While I don't object to bits of fluff in principle, I would prefer not to see it on this list. I think many of those on the list are quite enthusiastic about their campaigns, and most of the DM's I've met are good story-tellers - afterall, it's all part of the job. What this means is that almost everyone on this list could be writing Mystara-related fiction, simply by relating adventures their characters have been in, or have put players through. I enjoy hearing about other people's campaigns, but I like it to be in the context of a thread (ie. IMC remarks), and I'm afraid that a removal on the moratoriam on fluff could swamp the list. I'm sure that most wouldn't object to a bit of fluff now and then, but these things can take on a life of their own. A kind of keep-up-with-the-Jones', I-can-top-that-story, and I-can-write-at-least-as-good-as-that sort of thing. I think that if there was a good deal of interest in Mystara-related fluff, we could have a split-off list (mystara-fluff-l or whatever). Pointers to fluff on this list are totally fine by me, in any case. Regards, The Shadow Dragon (aka. Derek Adam) [lurk] ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:52:36 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost > I know that the value of gold pieces varies according to the DM, but I'm > interested in how much do you charge for casting on the party spells such as: > remove curse, heal, cure disease, raise dead, stone to flesh and the like. > If you post your cost tables (if any) to the list, we can try to make a Standard > Spell Cost Chart with various modifiers to apply according to who cast the > spells, where we are... > I wait for you answers. I pretty much junked that entire list, mostly because I ruled that priesthoods don't get together to set prices for their miracles, but also because I moved my game into a silver-standard game and those spells got expensive stuck in their gp costs. Come to think of it, I can only think of one time in my game where a PC asked a temple to cast a spell on his behalf. It was in the first adventure I ever ran for the campaign and the character was a glantrian mage (read: atheist), a necromancer trained by Ethengar hakomon, trying to get a blessing put on his sword to help fight some undead that had erupted from beneath the city. They ended up taking all his money (about 80 sp or so) and still not casting the blessing. It's funny, but now that I think about it, none of my PCs, except the questing knight/priest, really deals with the churches. The makeup of the party is: - necromancer, atheist (Hel wants him dead, Nyx owes him a favour) - priest of Ixion (formerly Solarios but he had to change faiths when he became a noble of the court of Alphatia) - dryad (privately worships the triad of Forest Goddesses - Djaea, Ordana, Terra) - alfheim elf (hates the passivity of the treekeepers, pays lip service to Eiryundul) - bard (lay worshiper of Tiresias) - dwarf (heretical follower of the elemaster of Earth) - warrior (from Robrenn, follows Tarastia's incarnation there - the Wild Hunt) - plus a number of NPCs, including a demi-goddess, a paladin of Wotan, a warrior-healer of Fredara Swordmaiden, etc. I guess they really don't need to get involved with the local churches. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Jason Zavoda Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Derek Adam wrote: /snip/ > While I don't object to bits of fluff in principle, I would prefer not to > see it on this list. /snip/ > I think that if there was a good deal of interest in Mystara-related fluff, > we could have a split-off list (mystara-fluff-l or whatever). Pointers > to fluff on this list are totally fine by me, in any case. > I couldn't agree more. As I said before I am interested in Mystara fiction myself but not on this list. So my vote would be "NO" for fluff on the list. (Just in case I hadn't made that clear last time I posted.) Thanks Jason ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:35:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost >I know that the value of gold pieces varies according to the DM, but I'm >interested in how much do you charge for casting on the party spells such as: >remove curse, heal, cure disease, raise dead, stone to flesh and the like. >If you post your cost tables (if any) to the list, we can try to make a >Standard >Spell Cost Chart with various modifiers to apply according to who cast the >spells, where we are... >I wait for you answers. I don't like setting up price lists for clerical spells. A fixed gold amount for a healing spells is biased towards the wealthy (100 gp. just isn't the same to a successful merchant as it is to a beggar) and a lot of churches, particularly good-aligned churches, would be recognize that a donation of 100 gp from a beggar is worth a lot more then 100 gp from an adventurer who's name is sung across the continents. Neutral clerics might just be happy with a fixed fee system, but then always favoring whoever can pay a set price isn't very neutral considering there are many, many more peasants then kings. Mage spells can be cast at the whim of the mage, cleric spells are given to priests for a reason, by a being with his/her own motivations. Churches first responsabilitiy is to help members of the church, devoted followers, lay members, fellow clerics, etc. before some stranger off the street with a pouch full of gold. Keeping the devoted alive keeps the church alive. Whether or not a stranger to the church is healed is usually based on the respect they show the clerics Immortal (cause, god, belief system, whatever you have cleric's venerate). A merchant dripping with jewels who plunks down a 500gp gem without a second thought isn't showing the same respect some farmer who donates every copper they have, and then volunteers to work at the church. IMC, and setting a lot of campaigns in Glantri I don't come accross this problem often, is that clerics spells usually cost 10%-30% of the person's total wealth/level of the cleric spell being cast. Admittedly, this is highly subjective and it flucuates greatly based on, the alignment of the church, the role-playing of the character asking for the spell, any relationship the character may have had with the church, or it's Immortal, in the past, and how much the clerics assume the character can afford (and they're not fools). Sure, this means that a character can owe more then they have, this just works out to magic items, favors, tithes on future gold earned, quests or even menial labor. Hope this helps, - -Bob ------------------------------ From: "D.J. Sahlas" Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fluff on the MML... The Shadow Dragon wrote - > I think that if there was a good deal of interest in Mystara-related fluff, > we could have a split-off list (mystara-fluff-l or whatever). Pointers > to fluff on this list are totally fine by me, in any case. > Maybe if the list DOES get deluged with fluff (and I doubt it, as there are far fewer people that make the time to write than there are that could write if they wanted to) then we COULD spawn a sister list. Just a suggestion, Jim Sahlas ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #98 **************************** mystara-digest Monday, 22 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 099 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Melik Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 17:35 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Home-Spun Adventure Modules? At 09:36 PM 4/16/96 PDT, you wrote: > All this recent talk about Fluff on the list (which, BTW, I don't have >anything against. I read it if I feel like it or it hits the bit bucket >if I don't...) has got me wondering about a similar topic: Home Spun >Adventure Modules. > > For example, I'm just finishing up putting together a nice little adventure >in Darokin City and Akorros for the D&D group I'm currently DM'ing, and it's >all nicely formatted in Word 2.x for Windows, with boxed text, maps, treasure >prices, etc. etc. I did all the work mostly for myself because I *like* having >something that is easy to read rather than a mess of chicken scratch notes, >however, I tend to write my personal modules as if it were a "real" module >that others might use too. So, once it's really done, and probably after >I've finished Play-Testing it with my little band of guinea-pigs, would >anyone on the list be interested? > > I wouldn't post it, but would be willing to provide a short "synopsis" >that didn't give away too much (in case PC eyes are watching) and either >offer to e-mail an encoded copy of it to individuals who were interested >or to Leroy to put up in the e-mail archives. If people like this idea, >perhaps others could share their Mystara Based Adventures? > That sounds great. I'm looking forward too it, and I might post, offer for email or archiving, whatever an adventure later, as soon as I'm done with my revamping of the D&D weapon mastery rules, so it can be used in D&D or AD&D. ------------------------------ From: Orion Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 10:18:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Fluff Vote Closes on Sunday... Mystarans, I have recieved a considerable number of votes on the fullf issue, and the verdict is starting to look obvious. Becasue of this, and because I am going to be busy this next week, I am going to close the vote down on Sunday, April 21, at Noon (Mountain time). So, if you have an opinion, get your vote in. Thanks. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu owner-mystara-l@io.com - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 12:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, Due to a term program error, the message on fluff was sent out unfinished. When I recieve it through the list I will finish it and resend it. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 12:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Fluff Poll Results... Mystarans, Well, the votes are in and it looks like Mystara fiction will be allowed on the list. The results were... Yes -> 15 No -> 6 With that said, let me explain a few things on the subject... 1) There are a variety of technical reasons why I did not allow fluff on the reasons. Because of this, the allowance of fluff is a probationary thing. If any major problems are encountered, this decision are repealed. Most of this technical stuff revolves around disk space and the digest. 2) Some people talked about a seperate list for Mystara fluff. In all, I think that is unnecessarty. I think it is unlikely we will see a sudden deluse of fiction. This list is already dead at the moment; if people don't have the time (or intrest) to discuss Mystara, they probably won't havetime to write fiction. Plus, I would not be able to start such a list, even if it was called for. As an Illuminati Online subscriber I am allowed one mailing list. To have more would cost me extra money. 3) As I said, I don't think too much fluff will be a problem. But if it happens, I will have to lay out more rules. At the moment, though, all I have is a simple request: If someone has just posted fluff, please wait a day or two to post yours. This prevents individual digests from becoming bloated. Plus, the occasional story is more likely to get read than one that is part of many. 4) Sorry, but fluff will not be saved and indexed like the other game and source material that gets put here. This is due to space considerations. It would be cool, though, if someone volunteered to archive the stories. 5) Please, direct all personal opinions on posted fiction to the author, not the list. On the other hand, if you want to discuss how a piece of fiction applies to Mystara or xD&D, that's fine. 6) Becasue this is a ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!! On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > Due to a term program error, the message on fluff was sent out > unfinished. When I recieve it through the list I will finish it and > resend it. Hmmm, weird. The piece on fluff hasn't shown up on the list. Has anyone recieved it? The error may have been more serious than I thought. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sun, 21 Apr 96 21:55 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Mystara websites I have an idea, how about a FAQ section listing Mystara websites. I know a few, and if anyone finds others we could add them, if my idea is used. David Meilk darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sun, 21 Apr 96 21:55 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" We haven't been discussing this for a while, a good way is, 1st comes demigod as in the AD&D Dieties & Demigids, then lesser god, greater god, and then immortal as in OD&D. Immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods, but way, way more powerful than mortals, even an initiate immortal could whip a party of 36th level characters any day. Having something interesting in between besides exalted is nice. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sun, 21 Apr 96 21:54 PDT Subject: [Mystara] better weapon mastery/proficiency system I have completed 99.9% of the 1st edition of my better weapon mastery guidelines, developed from OD&D ideas, and could also be used in AD&D I suppose. I thought that in OD&D weapon mastery was a great idea, but not developed enough, as is the problem with many OD&D guidelines. I thought that the AD&D weapon proficiency guidelines were pitiful, just plain pitiful. Since combat is one of the main parts of the game, I decided to improve the weapon mastery system. I just have to find out the name of one thing that's in it that I forgot, and then I'll post it. (I'm posting it because, remember, the list is also for OD&D things) David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net Orc hacking is fun, but it gets boring soon, so now get ready for orc impaling and stunning and other neat things in a better system! ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sun, 21 Apr 96 21:55 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Alphatian events and Zoltan the Treekeeper Those events are pretty cool! I'm glad they were posted on the list. Did you make them up yourself, Herve, were they from some TSR source? I'm just curious. I really liked the story about Zoltan the treekeeper. I was wondering about how Zoltan made that tree, though. Did he use a spell and/or magical item that's in a Mystara product, like the Elves of Alfheim, or was it just made up with the story or a campaign? If the necklace and/or spell weren't in a Mystara thing, how about telling about them, giving stats? Do you know if there's going to be a prequel or sequel? If so, I think it would be good to tell about what happens more instead of so much things that are said. Oh, one other thing, why were there dashes at the beginning of things people said and exclamation marks at the end? Keep up the good work. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:33:16 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] better weapon mastery/proficiency system On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > Orc hacking is fun, but it gets boring soon, so now get ready for orc > impaling and stunning and other neat things in a better system! > Okay, im ready :) I did make wpn mastery rules for all the Red steel Weapons, I have considered posting it, but I'll wait and see how your system works first.. Haavard Faanes Btw: ive promised to post stuff on outer planes etc ages ago, but things are a bit hectic around here, so it'll have to wait, sorry. :-) ------------------------------ From: stein1 Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:36:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Mystara] Some aspects of the combat system. The stories we tell with the game are more important than how they're told - usually. But sometimes the combat mechanics interfere and give us some strange stories indeed - particularily when one uses weapon mastery in conjunction with multiple attacks and the other combat options. In particular, the mechanics of the deflect is at least partially broken: to parry a blow and take no damage, you need merely to make a saving throw vs. death ray. In a high-level campaign, this amounts to 2. Not very hard to do, which makes fights a matter of luck and magical firepower, instead of skill - and makes it essentially impossible for the better warriors to hurt one another in duels. (I first noticed this in a tournament where the sword lists was won by the person who rolled the least numer of 1's on his deflect) The following mechanic might be better: To deflect a blow, the defender rolls a to-hit against the AC hit by the attacker. The defender must hit a higher AC than the attacker, equal or lower AC means the defence was inadequate and the attack penetrates to do normal damage. Advantages to this method include reflecting accurately the skills of the antagonists and making the defence results more probable. Problems with it include making weapon mastery a possibly too-decisive advantage, making more calculations neccessary, and causing some different SOD problems. It doesn't pay to make combat too complicated (despite Combat and Tactics from TSR) but some things could be introduced to make this less intrusive. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Attacks: Option 1: Multible attacks and weapon mastery are different enough in style that they are not compatible - multiple attacks depend on speed and ferocity to score more often on the opponent, weapon mastery depend on skill and calculation to cause more grivous wounds. Therefore, the two styles are not compatible. You can either attack multiple times, or single attacks with great mastery. The two styles do not combine. Advantage: No fighters with a good chance of causing 2/3/4 * 2d8+8 with a long sword in a single round. Problem: A skilled fighter SHOULD be able to integrate the two styles regardless. Option two: The two styles can be integrated, but the bonuses from weapon mastery won't help you to get multiple attacks. Advantage: You won't get fighters with multiple attacks against AC -10 at level 15. Problem: Again, a skilled fighter ought to be able to integrate the two styles with enough training. Also, magical weaponry can more than equal the bonus you get from weapon mastery. Option three: The two styles can be integrated, and weapon mastery bonunses will help you get multiple attacks. However, magic doesn't count in gaining multiples, and neither does strength. Only skill counts. Advantages: Again, no multiple attacks on ridiculously low AC's, and a rationale for the limitation that makes sense. Problem: Both magic and strength help you move the weapon faster. How do one explain that it doesn't help one attack more often ? - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Option four: Deflects do not take into account bonuses from magic weapons- their magic is designed to attack, not to defend. You do not add in the bonus from magic to see what AC the defender manages to "reach". Advantage: Combat is made a bit more dangerous - the advantage will lie with the attacker. Problem: This rule has to have some specific exeptions: magic weapons CAN be made with the primary purpose to defend. I don't reccomend giving out these sorts of weapons as treasure though. But I can see some PC's deciding to create a defensive sword. I recomend you double the price of any weapon designed to defend as well as attack. Option five: Deflects are more difficult against trained warriors. Defenders have a minus to your deflect equal to the DIFFERENCE in weapon mastery bonus between defender and attacker. Advantage: reflects the problem of defending against a warrior who is more trained than you, and can anticipate your defenses. Disadvantage: This is already partially reflected in the attcker's greater bonus. It is redundant if one uses the deflect method outlined above instead of saving throws. It makes weapon mastery even more of an advantage. Option six: Armour adds to your defence rolls if you're trained to use deflects in combat - you add in the number of steps your armour modifies From ???@??? Wed Apr 24 11:13:01 1996 X-UIDL: 236705e14a8a0f037758e671cdb6aaf3 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA04087; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:55:09 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA13843 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 22:25:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 22:25:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199604230325.WAA13843@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #99 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk your AC from the base of 9. You do NOT add in the magical bonus of your armour - this is only to reflect that there are fewer places to hurt someone wearing armour. Advantage: reflects the protective nature of armour better than the passive nature of AC, since a trained warrior will deflect a weapon to take a hit on a safe place on the armour he's wearing. Problem: gives defenders more bonuses and makes armour more decisive. Gives even more advantage to the people who armour themselves like lobsters. While reflecting reality, it causes problems with genre conventions: The lightly-armoured fighter is going to be heavily outmatched against someone wearing heavy armour, which contrasts sharply with the half-naked barbarian hero winning against the armoured knight. (Of course, in real medieval combat, the half-naked savage would best be described as "target practice" rather than "challenge") Option seven: Same as number six, exept that magic DOES count - it's designed to defend, and so should be factored in. Advantage: mantains setting integrity, and is consistent with option four. Problem: Makes it even worse to fight the high-level opponents, because they're likely to be loaded down with magical armour as well. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Example: Brak the Bothersome has mouthed off once to many to Kevin the Knight. Kevin swings his trusty longsword, aiming to lop Brak's head off (Kevin's player rolls a 14, hitting AC -8). Brak effortlessly flips the sword over his head and avoids being hit. (Brak's player rolls a 9, hitting AC -11) Brak decides the world would be a better place without haughty Kevin in it, and shoves his sword straight at Kevin's midsection. (Brak's player rolls a 14, hitting AC -16). Kevin desperately tries to parry, (rolling a 16, and hitting AC -10) but that doesn't work against the exellent swordplay of Brak, and Brak's sword slips in through a gap in Kevin's plate armour. Kevin is level 9, a newly made knight, Expert at the long sword and Skilled in the Lance. He gets a +4 to hit from weapon mastery, and +2 from strength. He wears magical plate mail +2, and a shield +1, in addition to his Long sword +2. He has a base THAC0 of 14, modified for all bonuses to 6 Brak is level 16, a veteran warrior and Jarl. He is a Master of Long sword and skilled in the bow. he gets a +6 to hit from weapon mastery, and +3 from strength. He wears bracers of defence AC2, a ring of protection +3, and carries a shield +2 for those times when the fighting might involve arrows. He uses a Long Sword +3, flaming. He has a base THAC0 of 10, modified for all bonuses to -2. Depending on what defensive options one decides to use, this combat example changes, sometimes dramatically. Using option 4 Kevin scores a hit on Brak, since Brak's defense drops from AC -11 to AC -8, equal to Kevin's attack, which means that Brak loses. Then, on the return hit, Kevin only manages a defense of AC -8 and still gets hurt. Using option 5, Brak parries the attack even more effortlessly, because he gets a +2 bonus to his defence - he's got one level higher weapon mastery. Then, Brak punches through Kevin's defenses even more easily. Using option 6 Brak still parries Kevin's attack effortlessly, since nothing really changes for him - he's wearing only magical armour. But Kevin gets a 7-point bonus to his defence for Plate and shield, raising his defense to AC-17, one better than Brak's attack. Kevin manages to deflect the sword-point from the dangerous gap in his armour onto one of the hard plates, and escapes injury. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- One can of course combine any and all of the options, to the extent that the only way Brak the 16th level fighter could win would be to suit up in plate armour himself, or that the only way Kevin could win is to wait until Brak falls asleep and then cut his throat. My personal favourite would be to use option 3 in conjunction with 4, possibly with option 6. I would not want to contemplate actually using the weapon mastery system in conjunction with multiple attacks without some sort of limitation, anyway: The elven Knight in my campaign (1,8 million xp, attack rank ), Grand Master of the normal sword, str 18, uses a sword +3, flaming, gets a THAC0 of about -12. Which means he'd get multiple attacks on anything with AC -17 or worse. In turn, that allows him (with 2 attacks) to churn out an average of 42 HP damage per turn, and if he uses a haste spell, 84 HP damage - per turn. The word cuisinart suggests itself - in a couple of rounds he could take out an Ancient Red Dragon by himself. He's an extreme example, but Boryis isn't much better: Level 21 fighter, Master of the Long Sword, uses Gauntlets of Ogre power, Long sword +2 (he's got more powerful weapons, but this one's intelligent.), gets a THAC0 of about -10. Only marginally less destructive than the elven knight, but he's also a Master of the longbow- does d10+6 damage with his longbow +1 - averages 23 HP damage per round, 46 with haste. I'm not inclined to be generous with where the multiple attacks start ;) Then again, neither are the players: because if we didn't do something, one of these days the party might end up in the pointy end of a weapons master themselves. -Oystein H. Lund. stein1@spring.com ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" > We haven't been discussing this for a while, a good way is, 1st comes > demigod as in the AD&D Dieties & Demigids, then lesser god, greater god, and > then immortal as in OD&D. Immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods, but > way, way more powerful than mortals, even an initiate immortal could whip a > party of 36th level characters any day. Having something interesting in > between besides exalted is nice. Yuck. My system: Omnipotent creator of world Old Ones Immortals(by rank) Mortals Animals Other living things(plants) >From high to low oobviously ;> Aerialbots. I thought you were dead. No matter. You soon will be. - -Blast Off ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Hi everyone, I'm new to the list (I've been lurking for a week or so) and wasn't planning on posting so soon. However, I've been wondering about this for a while, so I thought I'd put in my 2 cents... On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > We haven't been discussing this for a while, a good way is, 1st comes > demigod as in the AD&D Dieties & Demigids, then lesser god, greater god, and > then immortal as in OD&D. Immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods, but > way, way more powerful than mortals, even an initiate immortal could whip a > party of 36th level characters any day. Having something interesting in > between besides exalted is nice. I've been thinking that the Immortals would be scattered in ability around the Powers. In other words, an Initiate would be below a demi-power, while a Hierarch is as powerful as Greater Power. The differences between Immortals and Powers using this sort of setting are: 1) Immortals can grow. Typically, AD&D demi-powers stay demi-powers forever, and a Lesser Power won't become a Greater Power. Immortals, however, can grow. An Initiate can eventually become a Hierarch, while a demi-power will never (or at least very rarely) become a Greater Power. 2) Immortals can die. The flip side of (1) is that while Immortals can gain power, they can also die. Powers can also "cease to exist" by losing worshippers (like Immortals according to the Wrath boxed set), but they cannot be confronted on their home planes and killed like Immortals can. Anyway, that's my take on it at least. I've been thinking about this topic a bit because I've been considering integrating some Planescape stuff into my upcoming campaign (which will be set on Mystara despite T$R's attitude that it is a "dead world" :( I've been wondering how other people who might have done the same things have integrated AD&D Powers and such with Mystara's Immortals. Especially the Outer Planes issue. I mean, do you keep the planes of Brynn, Draesten and Pyts alongside the Great Wheel or do you scrap them? Do they become Demiplanes? And what about the Old Ones and the Vortex Dimension (and the other dimensions?) I'm just curious what other people have done. BTW: Could someone forward me the FAQ for this group? I've been poking around for it outside the list, but I can't find it. - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Come on, impress me." - David Xanatos, Gargoyles "Vows" ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:55:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" > > We haven't been discussing this for a while, a good way is, 1st comes > > demigod as in the AD&D Dieties & Demigids, then lesser god, greater god, and > > then immortal as in OD&D. Immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods, but > > way, way more powerful than mortals, even an initiate immortal could whip a > > party of 36th level characters any day. Having something interesting in > > between besides exalted is nice.My personal opinions: Gods were created out of the stuff that is reality. They possess the powers of creation, which is the GREATEST power of all. And from the power of creation comes the power of destruction. Immortals are created out of the gods powers of creation. In my own (perfect) world, a god is a god and can do whatever he wants no matter where he is. If thor were on the material plane and a guy (36th fighter in +120495 full plate and +20994656 two handed Mastered sword) walked up to Thor and said they were going to fight, all Thor would have to do is say "Die" that would be the end of it. No more pesty little fighter. If that same fighter were to walk up to an immortal, then we'd have a fight on our hands for sure. that's my .02 on the other subject of a FAQ of web pages, I would like the same thing to put in my web page, any help is apprecitated (I alreday have a spot for these links, it's just real slim) Have fun Joe http://www.cris.com/~Gore ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Fluff Poll Results... (again) Mystarans, Well, the votes are in and it looks like Mystara fiction will be allowed on the list. The results were... Yes -> 15 No -> 6 With that said, let me explain a few things on the subject... 1) There are a variety of technical reasons why I did not allow fluff on the list. Because of this, the allowance of fluff is a probationary thing. If any major problems are encountered, this decision is repealed. Most of this technical stuff revolves around disk space and the digest. 2) Some people talked about a seperate list for Mystara fluff. In all, I think that is unnecessarty. I think it is unlikely we will see a sudden deluse of fiction. This list is already dead at the moment; if people don't have the time (or intrest) to discuss Mystara, they probably won't have time to write fiction. Plus, I would not be able to start such a list, even if it was called for. As an Illuminati Online subscriber I am allowed one mailing list. To have more would cost me extra money. 3) As I said, I don't think too much fluff will be a problem. But if it happens, I will have to lay out more rules. At the moment, though, all I have is a simple request: If someone has just posted fluff, please wait a day or two to post yours. This prevents individual digests from becoming bloated. Plus, the occasional story is more likely to get read than one that is part of many. 4) Sorry, but fluff will not be saved and indexed like the other game and source material that gets put here. This is due to space considerations. It would be cool, though, if someone volunteered to archive the stories. 5) Please, direct all personal opinions on posted fiction to the author, not the list. On the other hand, if you want to discuss how a piece of fiction applies to Mystara or xD&D, that's fine. 6) Becasue this is a Mystara list, only Mystara fiction will be allowed (I proabaly didn't even need to say that, but you never know). 7) Not a rule, but a bit of advice from an English major who has taken an endless stream of creative writing classes: Well written, well formatted fiction is a lot more likely to get read. I can't speak for all, but a peice of fiction without any breaks (i.e paragraphs) is likely to result in the delete key. Two spaces after a period makes a big difference over one. Any peice of fiction worth reading is worth spending some proofreading time on. 8) I will not put an arbitrary limit on size, yet, but I will mention that the list has a built in line limit. Anything after a certain number of lines is truncated. After a while I will look through the config file and find the number, then post it. 9) When work and weekend activities (i.e gaming) do not infringe on my time I will change the FAQ to represent all this. Well, that's it on fluff. Comments are, as always, welcome. In closing, I would like to thank all those who included words of appreciation for my efforts on this list. They really meant a lot. In turn, I would like to extend the same gratitude to those who make this list worth working on. This list is is a bit dead at the moment, but it hasn't always been, and hopefully won't always be. Some have called Mystara a dead world. I disagree. Mystara will always be a living, vibrant place as long as we keep it alive in our minds, and on this list. Later... van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #99 **************************** mystara-digest Wednesday, 24 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 100 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The FAQ... I have seen a post or two on the FAQ, and where to find it. The FAQ can be found on the web, at... http://www.io.com/~oryon If that doesn't work for you, drop me a line and I will mail it to ya'. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You just don't get it, do you? We have no choice; either we fight or we die. Because if we don't turn them back they will transform this planet into a living hell. Just like they did to Earth." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- General Zykren Qae'Tahn, _Imperium_ ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:46:55 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > We haven't been discussing this for a while, a good way is, 1st comes > > demigod as in the AD&D Dieties & Demigids, then lesser god, greater god, and > > then immortal as in OD&D. Immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods, but > > way, way more powerful than mortals, even an initiate immortal could whip a > > party of 36th level characters any day. Having something interesting in > > between besides exalted is nice. > > > Yuck. > > My system: > Omnipotent creator of world > Old Ones > Immortals(by rank) > Mortals > Animals > Other living things(plants) > > >From high to low oobviously ;> > Well this is much like what was hinted at in the old Gold Box. However, Mortals, Animals, Plants? sounds somewhat aristotelean, perhaps... Ranking Humans (and Demihumans above the others is probably normal in the known world, as it was in Medeval Europe, But certainly the Ethengarians would disagree with you. All Mortal creatures that be humans, plants animals or other have a spirit, and humans are a part of nature, not above it. That would be their opinion anyway. Other Shamanistic peoples will share that view... Just thought i'd commet on it :) Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] FLUFF VOTING WAS UNFAIR!!! The recent fluff voting process was unfair to the persons on the digested version of the list. Leroy posted the official call for votes on Wednesday 4/17, and stated that it would go on for "about a week." On Saturday 4/20, Leroy then announced that the verdict was obvious, and that voting would end on Sunday 4/21. On that day, the results of the poll were announced. On Monday 4/22, Mystara digest #98 was sent out to the people on the digested version of the list. In that issue was Leroy's call for votes. The final verdict appeared in issue #99, which was sent to subscribers on Tuesday 4/23. That means that NOBODY THAT RECEIVES THE LIST IN DIGESTED VERSION HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE! As one of those people, I would like to vote NO TO FLUFF!!! Don't get me wrong, I love to read about other people's campaigns. I am more than happy to look at someone's web page when I find a pointer on the list. As a matter of fact, I'm the one who suggested that the statement about pointers to fluff being ok to post go into the FAQ; the original version just said no fluff. The comment was made by several people that those not interested in fluff can just delete the messages. That is NOT an option for those of us who receive the digest! I have to scroll through all of the posts, including the fluff, if I don't want to miss out on more important things. If I were to post the complete synopsis for my 4+ year Mystara campaign, it would take up about eight issues of the digest (that's about 240K for those of you who receive single messages). Does everyone want to see that? I seriously doubt it. What discussion can take place regarding a post of fluff? Virtually none, other than flames or pats on the back. In other words, a large posting of fluff will not generate as much in the way of ideas as, for instance, an original adventure, a timeline, or a new immortal. I apologize if I sound rather irate, but I don't like the fact that the voting was held, and the decision made without the input of 20% of the subscribers to the list. I suggest that there be another period of voting, and that it go on for longer than FOUR DAYS (especially when a voting period of "about a week" is announced) so that everyone can participate. This isn't just a matter of me not getting my way. If the majority of people still want fluff, then so be it. I have no problem with that. BTW, though I may sound it, I'm really not mad at Leroy, or anyone else. I realize that these things do happen. Happy campaigning, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Date: 23 Apr 1996 14:02:17 GMT Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Sorry to ask a stupid question, but I'm fairly new to this mailing list, and I was wondering what exactly 'OD&D' is. Are you talking about the original Dungeons & Dragons? Andrew ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 10:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" > Ranking Humans (and Demihumans above the others is probably normal in the > known world, as it was in Medeval Europe, But certainly the Ethengarians > would disagree with you. All Mortal creatures that be humans, plants > animals or other have a spirit, and humans are a part of nature, not > above it. That would be their opinion anyway. Other Shamanistic peoples > will share that view... Well, just because they view the world a certain way doesnt mean thats reality ;> I was just giving my reality Aerialbots. I thought you were dead. No matter. You soon will be. - -Blast Off ------------------------------ From: jam@wimsey.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] FLUFF VOTING WAS UNFAIR!!! > The recent fluff voting process was unfair to the persons on the > digested version of the list. Leroy posted the official call for votes > on Wednesday 4/17, and stated that it would go on for "about a week." On > Saturday 4/20, Leroy then announced that the verdict was obvious, and > that voting would end on Sunday 4/21. On that day, the results of the > poll were announced. > > On Monday 4/22, Mystara digest #98 was sent out to the people on the > digested version of the list. In that issue was Leroy's call for votes. > The final verdict appeared in issue #99, which was sent to subscribers on > Tuesday 4/23. That means that NOBODY THAT RECEIVES THE LIST IN DIGESTED > VERSION HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE! > > [...] > > I apologize if I sound rather irate, but I don't like the fact that the > voting was held, and the decision made without the input of 20% of the > subscribers to the list. I suggest that there be another period of > voting, and that it go on for longer than FOUR DAYS (especially when a > voting period of "about a week" is announced) so that everyone can > participate. This isn't just a matter of me not getting my way. If the > majority of people still want fluff, then so be it. I have no problem > with that. Sir George has a point. I think Leroy should re-open voting, but only for those who haven't voted yet (That should be obvious, but you never know). And keep voting open until some time after the NEXT digest has gone out (i.e., so that the Digest people know they can still vote.) It may not make a difference to the results, but it is only fair. Just my $0.02 worth - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield : ............ -=< strawberryJAMM >=- : Black Holes Are Merely jam@wimsey.com : Where God Divided By Zero http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html : ............... ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 13:42:16 EDT Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Andrew McKinstry writes: > > Sorry to ask a stupid question, but I'm fairly new to this mailing list, and I > was wondering what exactly 'OD&D' is. Are you talking about the original > Dungeons & Dragons? I beleive it means Old D&D, so that would be basic D&D ( red box etc.. and the rules cyclopedia ) ... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 15:27:15 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" > > We haven't been discussing this for a while, a good way is, 1st comes > > demigod as in the AD&D Dieties & Demigids, then lesser god, greater god, and > > then immortal as in OD&D. Immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods, but > > way, way more powerful than mortals, even an initiate immortal could whip a > > party of 36th level characters any day. Having something interesting in > > between besides exalted is nice. > > Yuck. > > My system: > Omnipotent creator of world > Old Ones > Immortals(by rank) > Mortals > Animals > Other living things(plants) > From high to low obviously ;> Try this list (again from high to low): - Primal Energy (no sentience) - Primal Entities (True Dragons, Draeden, First Elves, Primal Gods [Ixion, Hel, Valerias, Thanatos, Wotan, Korotiku]) - Celestial Entities (High Dragons, things listed classed with Immortals in the Wrath monster list) - High Mortals (things listed as Exalted) - Mortals (divide to taste) This (mine) uses the system from The Primal Order and a few campaign specific items (like first elves and the division of dragons). HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:03:41 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] FLUFF VOTING WAS UNFAIR!!! I do not realy know, where to vote - but i would like to vote NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Thanx, Sorry and Byebye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@IO.COM Date: Wed Apr 24 02:49:23 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 23 Apr 96 22:49 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA22558 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 20:08:34 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA22438 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 19:53:02 -0500 Received: from loopback.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa (root@rhrz-ts2-p9.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.224.119]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00816 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 19:43:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tgm@localhost) by localhost (8.6.11/8.6.11) id CAA00356 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:05:02 -0700 From: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de Message-Id: <199604240905.CAA00356@localhost> Subject: Re: [Mystara] FLUFF VOTING WAS UNFAIR!!! To: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:03:41 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Jenni A. Merrifield" at Apr 23, 96 09:46:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 784 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I do not realy know, where to vote - but i would like to vote NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Thanx, Sorry and Byebye, - -- Thomas (tgm) Ackermann | G i b GATES | DOS* |Great minds tja ;-) Tel. 0228/73-7773 | 631369 | k e i n e | WIN* |discuss ideas (e-mail: tgm@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de) | C h a n c e ! | WIN95|-------------- - -----------------------------------------------------------------|Average minds mail a sole "help" and/or "add discuss-l" line (in mail-body) to |discuss events listserv@math.uni-bonn.de to be added to a list were you can |-------------- talk about non-GURPS related things with people from GURPSnet-L |Small minds - -----------------------------------------------------------------|discuss people ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 21:25 PDT Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 02:02 PM 4/23/96 GMT, you wrote: >Sorry to ask a stupid question, but I'm fairly new to this mailing list, and I >was wondering what exactly 'OD&D' is. Are you talking about the original >Dungeons & Dragons? > Yes, that's how people here abbreviate it. Have you read the FAQ yet? It's helpful if you want to now other things. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 21:41 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] FLUFF VOTING WAS UNFAIR!!! > Sir George has a point. I think Leroy should re-open voting, but only >for those who haven't voted yet (That should be obvious, but you never >know). And keep voting open until some time after the NEXT digest has >gone out (i.e., so that the Digest people know they can still vote.) >It may not make a difference to the results, but it is only fair. > I think we should re-vote, just to make sure people don't vote twice. If the voting is going to be open anyway, there will be enough time, and most people know about it now. This way would be fairer. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 21:17 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost I agree that if the prices are so high, it's not realistic. The clerical orders would make almost no money at all. Maybe they would sell 2 or 3 spells a year or something. That spell cost table is a great idea. I'm going to think about it and work on it in a while if I have the time, so don't think that no one is going to talk about it if no one else does. It should depend on spell, alignement of caster and recipient, clerical order, wealth of recipient perhaps, recipients patron immortal (if any), with maybe percentage multipliers to the base cost depending upon these sorts of things, what do you think? ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 21:16 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 12:48 PM 4/22/96 -0400, you wrote: >> We haven't been discussing this for a while, a good way is, 1st comes >> demigod as in the AD&D Dieties & Demigids, then lesser god, greater god, and >> then immortal as in OD&D. Immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods, but >> way, way more powerful than mortals, even an initiate immortal could whip a >> party of 36th level characters any day. Having something interesting in >> between besides exalted is nice. > > >Yuck. > >My system: >Omnipotent creator of world >Old Ones >Immortals(by rank) >Mortals >Animals >Other living things(plants) > >>From high to low oobviously >>From high to low oobviously ;> > >Aerialbots. I thought you were dead. No matter. You soon will be. >-Blast Off > > > Uuhh, yeah... "Yuck." was also my reaction to your reaction to my posting. Whats the point of even replying if you just say something like "Yuck, I don't like how you do it. Here's the way I do it (Of course, my system must be so much better.)." We're should be DISCUSSING things here? WHY do you say "Yuck." to the way I do it? WHY do you like yours better? I don't really care unless you say why, just a little bit even. So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... You know, I thought animals and plants ARE mortals, but just different kingdoms, phylums, classes, orders ... etc. I suppose you may have not liked using Immortals rules and Dieties & Demigods simultaneously because many deities are the same. I thought so too, and never used them together because of this. However, I have had some thoughts on it recently. The Dieties & Demigods gods could be avatars or something, or maybe beings of immortal power From ???@??? Thu Apr 25 12:53:43 1996 X-UIDL: 2f0e7106197903d5ee8ff3012cc668f7 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA18493; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 16:27:13 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA24621 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 01:10:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 01:10:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199604240610.BAA24621@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #100 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk can have something like a demigod or god level identity, as they have mortal identities. Just doing a bit of brainstorming here, anyone care to join in? David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 21:42 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 07:55 PM 4/22/96 -0400, you wrote: >> > We haven't been discussing this for a while, a good way is, 1st comes >> > demigod as in the AD&D Dieties & Demigids, then lesser god, greater god, and >> > then immortal as in OD&D. Immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods, but >> > way, way more powerful than mortals, even an initiate immortal could whip a >> > party of 36th level characters any day. Having something interesting in >> > between besides exalted is nice.My personal opinions: > Gods were created out of the stuff that is reality. They possess the powers of >creation, which is the GREATEST power of all. And from the power of creation comes the >power of destruction. > Immortals are created out of the gods powers of creation. > In my own (perfect) world, a god is a god and can do whatever he wants no matter >where he is. If thor were on the material plane and a guy (36th fighter in +120495 full >plate and +20994656 two handed Mastered sword) walked up to Thor and said they were >going to fight, all Thor would have to do is say "Die" that would be the end of it. No >more pesty little fighter. > If that same fighter were to walk up to an immortal, then we'd have a fight on >our hands for sure. > >that's my .02 > >on the other subject of a FAQ of web pages, I would like the same thing to put in my web >page, any help is apprecitated (I alreday have a spot for these links, it's just real >slim) > >Have fun >Joe >http://www.cris.com/~Gore > > > Are you stating this as it appears in Dieties & Demigods, or the way you do it? I would like to know. From what I saw, D&D immortals are more powerful than AD&D gods. I didn't know that AD&D gods had the power of creation of worlds and things. So which is it? Your post is interesting. I think that the terms mortal, immortal, demigod, god need some more definition for game terms. A good way would perhaps be to use the real-world meanings of the words, which I think are like this: mortal - someone who dies of aging immortal - someone who doesn't die of aging (but may or may not appear to age much) demigod - a powerful being god - either a being even more powerful than a demigod, or the difference may be they have worshippers (I'm not exactly sure...) In many versions of Greek and Scandinavian mythology, the gods were powerful, yes, able to create things and do wondrous magical spells, godlike stuff, you know, or they had not as much power but they did have worshippers. They were also mortal. In versions of Greek myth they had to have nectar and/or ambrosia for immortality I believe, and in Scandinavian myth, they had to eat the apples of Idunn. Maybe they weren't mortal, maybe they just apppeared to age but wouldn't die of age. Hmmm... what do you think, everyone? That's about all for now. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 21:46 PDT Subject: [Mystara] My weapon mastery system, v2.0 - --=====================_830317738==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, here's my weapon mastery system, in Write for windows format. If someone needs a .txt version instead if you don't have windows, email me and maybe I'll send you one. (Or should I just send it to the list too? I just don't want to clutter it up) For those of you that didn't read my announcement on it, this is an improved(hopefully) version of weapon mastery that I made. I thought that the OD&D system was a good idea but not developed enough, so I changed the guidelines for my own campaign, because of course, they are only guidelines. One thing I forgot to mention in the .wri file itself is removal damage, the damage a weapon inflicts for being removed from a wound caused by impaling. I just thought this up and will include it in my 3rd version, when(and if) that's made. Here's how it works. A nasty weapon full covered with barbs, specially made to rip a victim when it's removed, would have the highest removal damage. A straight weapon, like a spike, would have the lowest. There are things in between, of course. My 1st thought was maybe 1d6 or 1d4 as the highest, the biggest most barbed weapons, and 1 or even 0 as the lowest. What are YOUR thoughts on it, huh? Or your thoughts on the entire system. I would love to discuss this all so it can be improved more. So there. When I mention "see critical hit table" in it, it just means critical hit, and do whatever you do for a critical hit in your campaign. I am making another critical hit table for myself, so that's why it's there. Perhaps I'll include this in the 3rd ed. The most significant thing I'm working on for the 3rd ed, is expanding and detailing the chart to detail the weapons on it instead of the general groups. Maybe it will just have a groups like "short polearms", "long polearms", "short swords", etc., or maybe every single weapon. This is one of the things that I would really like to discuss, the stats on that chart of more specific weapons. I know for a fact that some of them are unrealistic because they are so generalized, but I think this system overall is more realistic than the mundane version. I also think it will be much more fun, and if it's more realistic and fun, that's the whole point. Thats all for now. I hope you have fun with my new system, and if not tell my why. That would be good if people playtested it so it could be improved. :) David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net - --=====================_830317738==_ Content-Type: application/microsoft-write; name="WEAPMAST.WRI"; x-mac-type="42494E41"; x-mac-creator="6D646F73" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="WEAPMAST.WRI" Mb4AAACrAAAAAAAAAADKHAAAPABDAEMAQwBDAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABXZWFwb24gTWFzdGVyeQ0KDQpMZWFybmluZyBXZWFwb24gUHJvZmljaWVu Y2llcw0KDQppbml0aWFsIHNsb3RzDQoNCmNsYXNzCWluaXRpYWwJYWRkaXRpb25hbCBwZXIgbGV2 ZWxzDQpjbGVyaWMJMgkxLzQJDQptYWdlCTEJMS81CQ0Kcm9ndWUJMwkxLzMJDQp3YXJyaW9yCTQJ MS8yCQ0KDQp0aW1lIG5lZWRlZA0KDQpBIHN0dWRlbnQgb2Ygd2VhcG9uIG1hc3RlcnkgbmVlZHMg YSBjZXJ0YWluIGFtb3VudCBvZiB0aW1lIHRvIHRyYWluIHN1ZmZpY2llbnRseSBpbiBhIHdlYXBv biwgZGVwZW5kaW5nIG9uIGNlcnRhaW4gdGhpbmdzLCBjYWxjdWxhdGVkIGFzIGZvbGxvd3M6DQoN 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Thu Apr 25 12:53:53 1996 X-UIDL: 4bf99f5831593198ed1d361fabe75cd0 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA04469; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 03:43:41 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA27944 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:48:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:48:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199604241648.LAA27944@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #101 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, 24 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 101 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Derek Adam Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 22:49 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost At 09:30 PM 4/17/96 +0200, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >I know that the value of gold pieces varies according to the DM, but I'm >interested in how much do you charge for casting on the party spells such as: >remove curse, heal, cure disease, raise dead, stone to flesh and the like. >If you post your cost tables (if any) to the list, we can try to make a Standard >Spell Cost Chart with various modifiers to apply according to who cast the >spells, where we are... >I wait for you answers. > For Professional Spell Casters IMC, I use a rule of thumb of a minimum of 100gp per level of the spell for things that the caster would have no reason to object to, and then adjust for circumstances. Many services may not be available outside of large cities, and then where they are they'll tend to be a bit more expensive. Hmm...perhaps a few examples would help? Simple examples include: ======================== Detect Magic on a group of items or Read Languages on an ancient map would cost 100gp. Wizard Locking a portal or making a Continual Light effect would cost 200gp. Getting Teleported would cost 500gp. Getting more complicated: ========================= To Analyse a magical item - As there is only a percentage chance of success, it *may* be necessary to cast this spell multiple times to get a successful result. However, since the MU is selling a service, I usually make it cost 100gp per magical characteristic discovered, plus 100gp to determine that the item has no other magical characteristics. However, cost of circumventing unfortunate consequences brought on by the Analyse are always passed on to the client, and may have legal consequences depending on the country and whether the client signed a contract. In addition, an Analyse is frequently preceded by a Detect Magic (@ 100gp ;-). Magical Private Investigation - This is often dangerous, so costs are usually in the 500gp per day and up range, plus expenses. This usually covers the cost of minor divinations, like ESP, Locate Object, Detect Invisible and Clairvoyance, as well as skulking spells like Invisibility. Expenses may include bribes, paying city officials to copy documents, hiring couriers, etc. As you can see, paying by the spell can get pretty expensive, which is probably why rulers tend to keep magists on staff. Casting Protection From Normal Missiles on the ruler every other day would more than make up for the 5000gp a month cost of an official wizard. :-) Your original question asked about Clerical spells, like Raise Dead, etc., but all of the above pertains pretty much exclusively to Magic-Users, and does not consider Clerics. I pretty much agree with Robert Kaelin regarding priestly magic costs being more subjective, and based on devotion and goals of the order. If you consider that the priest must justify every use of the blessings and miracles lent to him or her by the patron every time the priest goes to meditate, it becomes easier to decide what compensation to demand. And remember to require a service in the price of clerical magic whenever possible - one that furthers the goals of the church or the patron. In most cases, I would require the character to freely accept a Quest spell (therefore, no saving throw) in order to get priestly magical aid from an order that is not venerated by the character. Don't ask for a favour if you don't want to owe a favour! Just my 2 Denarii. Regards, The Shadow Dragon ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:19:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 09:42 PM 4/23/96 PDT, David Melik wrote: >I think that the terms mortal, immortal, demigod, god need some more >definition for game terms. A good way would perhaps be to use the >real-world meanings of the words, which I think are like this: > >mortal - someone who dies of aging >immortal - someone who doesn't die of aging (but may or may not appear to >age much) >demigod - a powerful being >god - either a being even more powerful than a demigod, or the difference >may be they have worshippers (I'm not exactly sure...) > >In many versions of Greek and Scandinavian mythology, the gods were >powerful, yes, able to create things and do wondrous magical spells, godlike >stuff, you know, or they had not as much power but they did have >worshippers. They were also mortal. In versions of Greek myth they had to >have nectar and/or ambrosia for immortality I believe, and in Scandinavian >myth, they had to eat the apples of Idunn. Maybe they weren't mortal, maybe >they just apppeared to age but wouldn't die of age. Hmmm... what do you >think, everyone? If you want to use real-world definitions, it should probably be noted that im/mortality has nothing to do with aging, at least as it regards Greek myth. Mortal=Can die Immortal=Cannot die Eternal=Has always existed, will always exist Some of the Greek gods were eternal, usually more primal ones like Night. All of the Greek gods were immortal, and could not die, although as you point out, according to some accounts their immortality is dependent upon nectar and ambrosia and they would be mortal without them. The funny thing is that the D&D Immortals are not (not Immortals) since they all can be killed. None are eternal, since they can discountinue existing, but some are eternal in the sense that they always were, or at least there are implications of this for certain ones. L8r, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Just throwing in my two cents. God is immortal and immortal is god. Just sometime in the past people in the TSR decided to call gods in Mystara immortals for one reason or the other. My guess is that the OD&D (and thus its gameworld, Mystara) was aimed toward younger audience, and TSR decided to use the term immortal so those children's parent will not get upset. This is also the reason that there are no religions in Mystara, just different "philosophise" and clerics don't prey for their spells, they "meditate." Basicly, Mystara was just a game world they can point to if any religious right people come after them. I believe this was actually mentioned in one of the Dragons a long time ago. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: paoloa@ing.unico.it (Paolo Avogadro) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:59:21 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money Treasure I have a little problem. I think that some monsters have too much treasure, for example, if you kill a dragon, you can gain abaut 50000 gp!!! and a party of 4 12th level characters can kill small dragons easily. In such a way characters become rich in a single adventure and they can buy any sort of spells or magic weapons becaming even more powerful. How do you solve this problem? Paolo Avogadro paoloa@ing.unico.it ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 05:21:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" > Are you stating this as it appears in Dieties & Demigods, or the way you do > it? I would like to know. From what I saw, D&D immortals are more powerful > than AD&D gods. I didn't know that AD&D gods had the power of creation of > worlds and things. So which is it? Your post is interesting. Tha's just how it works in my little head. I base this a little on the Thomas Covenant serires. Lord Foul was a powerful creture because we was created from part of the power of creation. The Ultimate Good Guy could not get rid of Lord Foul, though he had the power to do it, because Lord Foul was created out of the stuff that is Reality. Thus the Good Guy could not get rid of part of reality without gettting rid of the whole of reality, which he liked to much to destroy to erase one little blemish. Does that help? Besides, when someone says God of god, or whatever, I get the vision of a supremely powerful being (though he/she does have flaws) who can do anything he/she wants. The gods created the wolrd, and allow the characters to live in it. So if a god decides to take that privelage away, it is gone. period. end of discussion. no more character. No a wizard who was born a mortal who managed to find the secrets of immortality or was granted immortality by gods (who can therefore take it away) decided a character could no longer have the privelage of living, the wizrad would have to work at removing ther privelage because he does no thave the power of "creation" of the "stuff of reality" to back him up. I do not know if I helped or muddled the situation more now :) Anyhoo.. Joe ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:26:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Paolo Avogadro wrote: > Treasure > I have a little problem. I think that some monsters have too much treasure, > for example, if you kill a dragon, you can gain abaut 50000 gp!!! and a party > of 4 12th level characters can kill small dragons easily. > In such a way characters become rich in a single adventure and they can > buy any sort of spells or magic weapons becaming even more powerful. > How do you solve this problem? > > > Paolo Avogadro > paoloa@ing.unico.it > you could charge your players for reaching higher levels,,, say (15000gp*next level of xp...) That should keep the players low on cash.... Also, remember..Dragons are not coommon, and! they are intelligent.... They should not be easy to deal with at any level... remember they have spells, magical treasure, and If the Pcs should find the lair..which should be hard enough, they will be faced with dousens of traps and guardians... Also, it is not beyond a dragon to keep its treasure elsewhere, and run off if the PCs survive the guardians... Some dragons are proud, yes, but even that does not make them stupid... Any other comments on this? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: stein1 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 06:31:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Paolo Avogadro wrote: > Treasure > I have a little problem. I think that some monsters have too much treasure, > for example, if you kill a dragon, you can gain abaut 50000 gp!!! and a party > of 4 12th level characters can kill small dragons easily. > In such a way characters become rich in a single adventure and they can > buy any sort of spells or magic weapons becaming even more powerful. > How do you solve this problem? Simple. As for buying and/or selling magic items - just ask yourself this: When was the last time a player in your campaign sold a magic item that wasn't of any immediate or longterm use ? If the answer's "never happened" then the rest is easy: why WOULD an NPC sell his things ? As for buying spells: IMC we use what amounts to magical copy-protection on spellbooks - copying a spell from a spellbook erases that spell. (Of course, there's the 4rth-level spell "Duplicate spell" that breaks the 'copy-protection', but only functions on spells of a) your own invention, or b) spells your master taught you. you need the 8th level version to be able to duplicate spells from captured spellbooks ;) ) Anyway- at levels 12+ it's not the raw physical challenge that's interesting, so much as the intrigue aspect. Certainly, in my Norwold campaign the most hated NPC is a certain mage named Ehran who's never so much as cast a single spell at the characters. His favourite spell is "teleport any object" to run away, you see - and never getting to grips with him is more frustrating than any amount of fighting with an From ???@??? Thu Apr 25 12:53:53 1996 X-UIDL: 4bf99f5831593198ed1d361fabe75cd0 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA04469; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 03:43:41 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA27944 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:48:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:48:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199604241648.LAA27944@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #101 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk "invincible" foe would be. (Incidentally, Ehran's a level 23 Runelord of Glantri, with half a dozen henchmen in the level 12-15 range. He probably COULD wipe the floor with the party - but he's not interested.) I've got a piece of fluff written up after a conversation between two of the Barons of Norwold I could post to the list that explains some of this, by the way. It's mostly Boryis and Pontus moaning about not knowing who's behind all the nasty stuff that's been happening to them and the realm lately though. Anyway - the trick is using intellectual challenges that brute force or bribery can't solve... ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 08:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Treasure > I have a little problem. I think that some monsters have too much treasure, > for example, if you kill a dragon, you can gain abaut 50000 gp!!! and a party > of 4 12th level characters can kill small dragons easily. > In such a way characters become rich in a single adventure and they can > buy any sort of spells or magic weapons becaming even more powerful. > How do you solve this problem? There's been a lot of discussion on this topic, in rec.games.frp.dnd, Dragon Magazine, and elsewhere, if you want to peruse them. My usual technique is to take the (rolled: it's usually less thatn 50K gp) value of the treasure, and convert it into 'other' items.. tapestries, lamps, spent on lair defenses, trashy novels, old boots, jewelry, or whatever. And depending on where it's hidden, every item takes a saving throw when, say, the mage casts a fireball at them, or the dragon's corpse falls on them from a hundred feet up.. :) Ob. Myst. Comment: In the OD&D system, has anybody figured out what the maximum possible valude of a single treasure is? ie, with perfect rolls, 1.6M gp gems, and so on.. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:04:44 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > I agree that if the prices are so high, it's not realistic. The clerical > orders would make almost no money at all. Maybe they would sell 2 or 3 > spells a year or something. > > That spell cost table is a great idea. I'm going to think about it and work > on it in a while if I have the time, so don't think that no one is going to > talk about it if no one else does. It should depend on spell, alignement of > caster and recipient, clerical order, wealth of recipient perhaps, > recipients patron immortal (if any), with maybe percentage multipliers to > the base cost depending upon these sorts of things, what do you think? > Hmmm... On mages its quite simple. But on clerical magic, there's all this stuff about ideology and belief,,, Views on wealth. When it comes to clerics, many people think of christian belief. TSR itself is partly responsible for this.. I dislike that attitude, not because i am offended on behalf of my own believes, but because i feel that is destroys the integrity of each immortal. In a setting where clerical magic is rare, services of the church will probably be for free, but restricted to those who the church believe deserve it.... In a setting where clerical magic is quite common, as Mystara in most campaigns (i believe) is, going to the cleric would be as common as going to the doctor in our world, and should be treated thus... However, as mentioned above, the policy of the churches vary and will naturally affect this... Most churches, I believe will not care about the wealth of buyers and would keep a special price for each service... Like mages. However if ie. compassion is a virtue of the church, then poor people might be charged less and rich more. The views on poverty may vary from religion to religion, and should have nothing to do with alignment. Poverty might be seen as a punnishment, and poor people will be treated as others. Wealth may be viewed as a reward or as a result of living a life of greed etc... One special case might be Asterius, who views making profit and thievery as the same thing, also being a protector of people who make money, legal or otherwise... He might be friendly inclined to the poor, since thieves usually belong to that class of society, but his clerics might also think of making profit.... Haavard ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:28:43 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > Ranking Humans (and Demihumans above the others is probably normal in the > > known world, as it was in Medeval Europe, But certainly the Ethengarians > > would disagree with you. All Mortal creatures that be humans, plants > > animals or other have a spirit, and humans are a part of nature, not > > above it. That would be their opinion anyway. Other Shamanistic peoples > > will share that view... > Well, just because they view the world a certain way doesnt mean thats > reality ;> I was just giving my reality Yes, I realiza that :) However I feel that the primitive people are not being taken seriously enough. They are just guys who go about believing stuff that is not true... Do we need an official truth? > Aerialbots. I thought you were dead. No matter. You soon will be. > -Blast Off I love those sigs... Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Date: 24 Apr 1996 12:56:49 GMT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" I've been looking over my Immortals' boxed set, Legends and Lore, and some of the other Mystara stuff TSR has come out with, and the picture I'm getting from this material, as well as material from the guy who designed the Princess Ark boxed set, (I can't remember his name right now), is that immortals are NOT gods, nor are they more powerful than gods. Immortals are extremely powerful mortals who are able to grant spells to their followers through the power of their sphere. Gods have the power of creation, absolute, they are omnipotent. Immortals also have the power of creation, but they 'borrow' this power through the might of their sphere. The Old Ones are on par with gods, as they are omnipotent as well, but I cannot subscribe to the idea that gods and immortals are one and the same, they are not. Andrew McKinstry ------------------------------ From: a.knapp@magnet.at (Alexander T. Knapp) Date: 24 Apr 1996 14:14:18 GMT Subject: [Mystara] New Subscriber Introduction Hello, I've just subscribed to the Mystara-list and wanted to introduce myself. My name's Alexander Knapp, and I've been playing D&D, and using the Mystara campaign setting for eight or nine years now. I started off as a player in a brilliant campaign, then began to DM shortly after, and for the last four years have been working primarily on campaign design, which I then "sub contract" to someone in the group with more skills at DMing than I. I am very familiar with AD&D, but prefer to draw on its materials only to supplement some of the areas in which I feel D&D or Mystara are lacking, like spell selection or specialty character classes. My campaign, 'The Tarathan', is set in Mystara, but has been 'personalized' with a variety of sources. I use the Immortal Rules, but have only twenty Immortals, which I created for the campaign. I prefer to create the background and story of a 'high' or 'epic' fantasy campaign, and then let the DM and PC's decide how much 'low' fantasy they want to play within that. As far as PC's go, I tend to work on the principle that characters and their abilities are above the average grain of the population and tailor the campaign to match. If you're curious, the entire overview of The Tarathan campaign (33K) can be found at: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/alex/Handbooks/WWWPlots/pl69.html Note that while many names and terms have be changed to protect the innocent (and those concerned with copyright violations...), it should be easy enough for anyone familiar with Mystara to 'decode.' Send me an E-mail and I'll make any additional clarifications. IRL, I'm a crisis diplomat based in Vienna, Austria and working in Bosnia with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. For those patient enough to read this far, I've got a couple of questions: 1) I'm interested in small plot/adventure hooks set in Mystara, and found some material in the Fantasy News Network journals (http://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~msphil/fnn). Does anyone know if the FNN is still active and if so, how to subscribe? (BTW, I've made a compilation of the Mystara hooks from the editions of the FNN that are there if anyone wants a copy...) 2) Does anyone else out there have experience in "Co-DMing"? That is to say, running an adventure/campaign with two DM's and dividing responsibilities and roles between you? I'd be interested to here about what worked well and how you made it most effective. Thanks for the time, comments and questions on any of the above welcome. Regards, Alex. ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 15:51:29 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Nightshade wrote: > Try this list (again from high to low): > > - Primal Energy (no sentience) > - Primal Entities (True Dragons, Draeden, First Elves, Primal > Gods [Ixion, Hel, Valerias, Thanatos, Wotan, > Korotiku]) > - Celestial Entities (High Dragons, things listed classed with > Immortals in the Wrath monster list) > - High Mortals (things listed as Exalted) > - Mortals (divide to taste) > > This (mine) uses the system from The Primal Order and a few campaign > specific items (like first elves and the division of dragons). Im intrigued by this... care to explain the part about elves and Dragons? How are elves created in your campaign? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" > Uuhh, yeah... "Yuck." was also my reaction to your reaction to my posting. > Whats the point of even replying if you just say something like "Yuck, I Sorry-I meant i dislike your system and then gave a VERY brief glance at mine-didn't mean to offend. > be so much better.)." We're should be DISCUSSING things here? WHY do you > say "Yuck." to the way I do it? WHY do you like yours better? I don't > really care unless you say why, just a little bit even. OK....if you really want a long explanation then I can give you one. Actually, it wouldn't be real long. It's just I like putting things in a real world context and all of the levels went by how I view the world. The immortals and old ones were simply additions from the immortal rule book and put where I perceived them. If you want more info on each level, just ask. > So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... I don't believe in them. > You know, I thought animals and plants ARE mortals, but just different > kingdoms, phylums, classes, orders ... etc. Mortals refers to humans and humanoids. Any more questions appreciated. Aerialbots. I thought you were dead. No matter. You soon will be. - -Blast Off ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 11:06:53 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money Paolo Avogadro writes: > > Treasure > I have a little problem. I think that some monsters have too much treasure, > for example, if you kill a dragon, you can gain abaut 50000 gp!!! and a party > of 4 12th level characters can kill small dragons easily. > In such a way characters become rich in a single adventure and they can > buy any sort of spells or magic weapons becaming even more powerful. > How do you solve this problem? > Don't forget a dragon's most powerful weapon, it's MAGIC. Prepare the dragon early with all it's spells and have it's defensive and protective one's already cast before the party gets there... Calculate the dragon's treasure BEFORE the fight and let the dragon use some of it's wands of fireballs or whatever magic it has in there... If the dragon is losing have it retreat with a large portion of it's treause... But ALWAYS remember that dragons cast spells!!! Very dangerous... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #101 ***************************** From ???@??? Thu Apr 25 12:54:01 1996 X-UIDL: 124f0976cdc8e0e6771e13d966a9d98d Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA10003; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:49:51 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA00812 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:25:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:25:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199604242325.SAA00812@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #102 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, 24 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 102 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 11:03:15 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Shin Chyang Yu writes: > > Just throwing in my two cents. > > God is immortal and immortal is god. Just sometime in the past > people in the TSR decided to call gods in Mystara immortals for > one reason or the other. My guess is that the OD&D (and thus its > gameworld, Mystara) was aimed toward younger audience, and TSR > decided to use the term immortal so those children's parent will > not get upset. This is also the reason that there are no religions > in Mystara, just different "philosophise" and clerics don't prey > for their spells, they "meditate." Basicly, Mystara was just a > game world they can point to if any religious right people come > after them. I think that's the official version of what happened, it just happens that since the game mechanics were different in OD&D and AD&D that Immortals ended up being more powerful than deities. If i was going to use both pantheons, i would convert to either the Deities system, or to the Immortals system.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 11:14:31 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Andrew McKinstry writes: > > I've been looking over my Immortals' boxed set, Legends and Lore, and some > of the other Mystara stuff TSR has come out with, and the picture I'm getting > from this material, as well as material from the guy who designed the > Princess Ark boxed set, (I can't remember his name right now), is that > immortals are NOT gods, nor are they more powerful than gods. Immortals are > extremely powerful mortals who are able to grant spells to their followers > through the power of their sphere. Gods have the power of creation, > absolute, they are omnipotent. Immortals also have the power of creation, > but they 'borrow' this power through the might of their sphere. The Old Ones > are on par with gods, as they are omnipotent as well, but I cannot subscribe > to the idea that gods and immortals are one and the same, they are not. > This was explained earlier in the list, OD&D "Immortals" used to be called "Gods" and TSR changed the name in order not to offend little childrens parents. Look at some old OD&D adventures and you'll see immortals called gods.... They are the same thing, just with a different name... The only reason TSR keeps saying "immortals are not gods" is to avoid offending kids parents. But for all intents, purposes and capabilities, immortals are gods and gods are immortals, same thing. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost Derek Adam pontificated: > > For Professional Spell Casters IMC, I use a rule of thumb of a minimum of > 100gp per level of the spell for things that the caster would have no reason > to object to, and then adjust for circumstances. Many services may not > be available outside of large cities, and then where they are they'll tend > to be a bit more expensive. > Since there are much more MU able to cast lower level spells instead of higher lever spells, the cost of spell casting should not be linear wrt the lever of spell. A square of the spell level will make more sense. So a fifth level spell will cost about 25 times more than the first level spell and a ninth level spell should be 81 times more (actually it probably would be even more than that unless you are in someplace that have a lot of high level mage running around). - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... Titans, Fiends and other non-mortal yet non-Immortal creatures from the Wrath of the Immortals set. Exalted are not as powerful as Initiates, but are still more powerful than mortals. Some Immortals create Exalteds from their favorite followers. > I suppose you may have not liked using Immortals rules and Dieties & > Demigods simultaneously because many deities are the same. I thought so > too, and never used them together because of this. However, I have had some > thoughts on it recently. The Dieties & Demigods gods could be avatars or > something, or maybe beings of immortal power > can have something like a demigod or god level identity, as they have mortal > identities. Just doing a bit of brainstorming here, anyone care to join in? I've been giving a lot of thought to this one too. My idea is that some Immortals made "pacts" with the Powers from the rest of the multiverse, and part of that "pact" included the assuming of the other's name.[1] I would bet that these "pacts" would allow the signers to "share" worshippers, each gaining some power from the others worshippers. Those who signed the pacts would come from similar backgrounds and have similar goals (hence Odin, Thor, Frey, Freya, Hel and Loki all have a "pact" with the Norse powers of the same name due to their similar goals). However, worshippers who know the Immortals by another name are not shared between the Powers (i.e. In one of the Savage Coast nations, Thor is known as Tuatis. The Power Thor cannot gain power from the Immortal Thor's worshippers in this nation). The Immortals of the Northlands aren't the only ones with these similar names either. A lot of the Humanoid Powers have the same names as the humanoid Immortals. Why sign such pacts? Maybe when the Immortals were "young", long ago when the multiverse was young they needed aid from the (also young) Powers. Maybe the young Powers needed aid from the young Immortals. Maybe each saw it as a way to gain power quicker than thier rival Powers/Immortals. Anyone else? [1] This idea is derived from the Marvel comics characters The Eternals, who were very similar to the Marvel Greek Gods, and signed an agreement with them to be their representatives on Earth. I've been thinking up ways recently to integrate the Immortals and Mystara into the Planescape "worldview", and the "pact" idea seems as good as any. - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Come on, impress me." - David Xanatos, Gargoyles "Vows" ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:14:36 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" > Im intrigued by this... > care to explain the part about elves and Dragons? In the beginning (tah-dum) the Five were created, Children (avari elf), Travellers (dragons), Lorekeepers (draeden), Dreamers (faeries), and the Guardians (gods). At first, only the Children held the power to create and mold the Song (Primal energy). But they were mortal (lifespans measured in millions of years, but technically mortal). The Guardians once worshiped the Children, but when they learned that they were mortal (and thus, inferior), they stole their arts (magic, both mortal and Primal), and declared war on them. This war reduced the number of Guardians to six (the ones in the Codex) - but many lesser races were introduced as both soldiers and servants (the lesser gods, demons, divine servants, and what is typically known as mortal races). The Children were wiped out, all were killed. A few of their descendants still exist because one of their kind, Ilsundal, betrayed his race and sued for peace with the Gods. His followers were stripped of their primal powers, their life spans and their history. They were brainwashed and Ilsundal presented them with false memories of their primal parentage as "nature spirits". These became the elves known today. During the war the other races urged the Gods to stop their war, for it's only root was intheir wounded pride. The draeden were challenged by the Gods who claimed that their messages of peace were a violation of their absolute objectivity. The draeden disappeared from the worlds and planes ruled by the Gods, choosing to watch from the depths of space. The Fae sang songs of sadness and the Gods exiled them from their planar home. The Gods taught their servants that the fae were dangerous and were to be killed. The Dragons did not side with the Children, fighting a war would detract from their true purpose, to wander and explore the vastness of the Tellurian (multiverse). But one of these dragons sought more power than her birthright and traded her immortality of life for the immortality of undeath to Thanatos and became Synn - the Night Dragon. This act stripped the dragons of their ability to move between worlds and planes. It also made them mortal, corrupting the whole race with the influence of Entropy. Only Synn's siblings and her mother were spared (the Dragon Rulers), and these sought a path for individual dragons to ascend to a point of power almost equal to their original birthright. Those who performed the trials and rituals became the dragon rulers - immortal servants of the last True Dragons. The campaign is currently at the point where the characters have just learned this information from a book written by a Draeden and hidden in the Library of Tiresias. Some outright will not beleive the truth (the priest of Ixion), others are shocked that such things could have happened right under their noses (the last battle in the war took place 90 years ago - the current date is 1005 AC). The draeden have returned because it seems an ancient enemy of the avari elves has corrupted the gods, possibly being the root cause of the war. Their is also a hint that one of their old NPC campanions, a strange mystical elf, may actually be one of the lesser elves, but was never brainwashed by Ilsundal (he was raised by a dragon lord). There it is, a little Primal Order, a little Tolkien (mainly for the terminology), a little White Wolf (for the setup of the planes as the Umbra), and an epic tragedy to serve as the backdrop to the Real war going on, not just the Alphatian-Glantri mortal war, or the Vanar (primal god) vs. Maiar (lesser god) civil war. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Just throwing in my two cents. > > God is immortal and immortal is god. Just sometime in the past > people in the TSR decided to call gods in Mystara immortals for > one reason or the other. My guess is that the OD&D (and thus its > gameworld, Mystara) was aimed toward younger audience, and TSR > decided to use the term immortal so those children's parent will > not get upset. This might have been true at one time, not so long ago. However, with the recent changes that T$R have been making to all of their settings, these definitions have had some changes made to them. Powers (aka Gods) have some of the same limitations as Immortals. They require worshippers to exist, and without worshippers they "die", their dead bodies cast out into the Astral plane to be used as homes for Githyanki. This is the only way that Powers can die. Immortals, OTOH, can't die from lack of worshippers. They can fade into near nothingness, but new worshippers can bring them back. Immortals can also die by someone else going to their Home Plane and killing them, a difficult task if the Immortal has any reasonable amount of intelligence (even Alphaks has managed to survive :) The biggest difference between Immortals and Powers, however, is that mortals become Immortal on a fairy regular basis whereas only on very rare occassions do mortals become Powers. TSR may not have meant any distinction originally, but now there is one. > This is also the reason that there are no religions > in Mystara, just different "philosophise" and clerics don't prey > for their spells, they "meditate." Basicly, Mystara was just a > game world they can point to if any religious right people come > after them. Yeah, just a bunch of "PC" ways of refering to things so as not to offend anyone. I think that it was mainly done because mortals COULD become Immortals, and having people on the world worshipping beings that were once people themselves bordered on sacriligious to some of the Blue Haired League (TM). - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Well ... I was amused by it anyway." - one of my standard excuses ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > > > > So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... > Titans, Fiends and other non-mortal yet non-Immortal creatures from the > Wrath of the Immortals set. Exalted are not as powerful as Initiates, > but are still more powerful than mortals. Some Immortals create Exalteds > from their favorite followers. From ???@??? Thu Apr 25 12:54:01 1996 X-UIDL: 124f0976cdc8e0e6771e13d966a9d98d Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA10003; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:49:51 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA00812 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:25:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:25:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199604242325.SAA00812@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #102 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk ARRRGGHH I hate it when I get interrupted reading a message like this. I apologise, David, for misreading that "where" as a "what", and responding with my dumb response. I'm getting senile in my old age :( - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) University Computer Services Technical Support - Bowling Green State University "Please ignore that man behind the curtain..." - - The Wizard, "The Wizard of Oz", L. Frank Baum ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 17:11:36 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" This is just a question, but are my messages getting through? I'm not really sure, if someone would respond and let me know that they are being added to the list i would appreciate it. thanks! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 17:03:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" >The biggest difference between Immortals and Powers, however, is that >mortals become Immortal on a fairy regular basis whereas only on very >rare occassions do mortals become Powers. TSR may not have meant any >distinction originally, but now there is one. This isn't a distinction. In TSR's most active world, the Forgotten Realms, there have been at least 4 characters (mortals) in several recent novels who have attained some version of GodHood. Midnight-Mystra Cyric Finder (The bard from the azure bonds stories) Kelemvor Lionsbane All of them were mortals who had achieved Godhood. 2 were granted it by Ao (whom I consider to be an Old One). 1 achieved demi-goddom by slaying another demi-god on his home plane, and Kelemvor became a power by siphoning a portfolio directly from a Greater Power in a moment of weakness. (I can't get a hands on a copy of Faiths and Avatars yet so if what I just said is technically wrong don't toast me, please.:-) ) When you consider this is 4 mortals all gaining immortality in 3 seperate incidents, over a span of 10 game years it's probably more common now then it ever was in Mystara. :-) Immortals are powers, just like the "gods" of other campaign worlds. (I'm not debating whether an immortal is the same as a god in our real-world, just the game ones.) - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 23:11:59 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money At 11.06 24/04/96 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: > Don't forget a dragon's most powerful weapon, it's MAGIC. Prepare >the dragon early with all it's spells and have it's defensive and >protective one's already cast before the party gets there... Calculate the >dragon's treasure BEFORE the fight and let the dragon use some of it's >wands of fireballs or whatever magic it has in there... If the dragon is >losing have it retreat with a large portion of it's treause... But ALWAYS >remember that dragons cast spells!!! Very dangerous... > Well, not all dragons have spell and casting defensive spells before the party gets to the lair seems a bit unfair IMO, unless the dragons knows in advance of the PC. I've also problems in figuring out how a dragon can use a wand, how can he bear it ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 23:11:52 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money At 11.59 24/04/96 +0200, you wrote: >Treasure > I have a little problem. I think that some monsters have too much treasure, >for example, if you kill a dragon, you can gain abaut 50000 gp!!! and a party > of 4 12th level characters can kill small dragons easily. >In such a way characters become rich in a single adventure and they can >buy any sort of spells or magic weapons becaming even more powerful. >How do you solve this problem? > There are several ways to solve this problem, here are some ideas: - - Dragon's lairs are often in hidden and secluded places, difficult to reach so trasporting 50000 gp, or even better: pieces for a total value of 50000 gp, shouldn't be an easy task and should take quite a long time during which many monsters can be attracted by the empty lair... - - Adventurers, money and fame usually go at hand with taxes and thieves. - - Among Dragons exists a pyramidal structure of power(described in an old Dragon Magazine), so killing a Dragon may bring to the party the wrath of his master... Anyway if the dragon was a tough one and they barely killed him using their mind more than their weapons, I think they deserve to gain such a treasure and buy whatever they want. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 17:01:05 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Jeremy Morris writes: > > On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > > > can have something like a demigod or god level identity, as they have mortal > > identities. Just doing a bit of brainstorming here, anyone care to join in? > > I've been giving a lot of thought to this one too. My idea is that some > Immortals made "pacts" with the Powers from the rest of the multiverse, > and part of that "pact" included the assuming of the other's name.[1] I > would bet that these "pacts" would allow the signers to "share" > worshippers, each gaining some power from the others worshippers. Those > who signed the pacts would come from similar backgrounds and have similar > goals (hence Odin, Thor, Frey, Freya, Hel and Loki all have a "pact" with > the Norse powers of the same name due to their similar goals). However, > worshippers who know the Immortals by another name are not shared between > the Powers (i.e. In one of the Savage Coast nations, Thor is known as > Tuatis. The Power Thor cannot gain power from the Immortal Thor's > worshippers in this nation). The Immortals of the Northlands aren't the > only ones with these similar names either. A lot of the Humanoid Powers > have the same names as the humanoid Immortals. > > Why sign such pacts? Maybe when the Immortals were "young", long ago > when the multiverse was young they needed aid from the (also young) > Powers. Maybe the young Powers needed aid from the young Immortals. > Maybe each saw it as a way to gain power quicker than thier rival > Powers/Immortals. > > Anyone else? > > [1] This idea is derived from the Marvel comics characters The Eternals, > who were very similar to the Marvel Greek Gods, and signed an agreement > with them to be their representatives on Earth. I've been thinking up > ways recently to integrate the Immortals and Mystara into the Planescape > "worldview", and the "pact" idea seems as good as any. Why not just use "Power" and "Immortal" interchangeably? Convert all the powers from AD&D that you wish to use to the Immortal system ( by far the better one.. ) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 23:11:55 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Magical Items (was Money) At 06.31 24/04/96 -0500, you wrote: > > Simple. As for buying and/or selling magic items - just ask yourself this: >When was the last time a player in your campaign sold a magic item that >wasn't of any immediate or longterm use ? If the answer's "never happened" >then the rest is easy: why WOULD an NPC sell his things ? Because he desperately needs money, or maybe that item is of not use to him. Recently my PC found a magical 2H Axe. They still don't know how magical it is, but they've already decided to sell it because they aren't used to wield axes. > > As for buying spells: IMC we use what amounts to magical >copy-protection on spellbooks - copying a spell from a spellbook erases >that spell. (Of course, there's the 4rth-level spell "Duplicate spell" >that breaks the 'copy-protection', but only functions on spells of a) >your own invention, or b) spells your master taught you. you need the 8th >level version to be able to duplicate spells from captured spellbooks ;) ) > IMC PC buy spells written on scroll and the mage who owns the Magic Shop doesn't copy the spell from his spellbook, but simply creates it by magical research. So IMC the basic cost of a first level spell is 880 gp, then I add a modifier for the location of the shop (0 in Glantri and other magic-rich countries, much more in Darokin..) and a percentage for the shopkeeper. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 23:12:02 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost At 22.49 23/04/96 PDT, Derek Adam wrote: > >For Professional Spell Casters IMC, I use a rule of thumb of a minimum of >100gp per level of the spell for things that the caster would have no reason >to object to, and then adjust for circumstances. Many services may not >be available outside of large cities, and then where they are they'll tend >to be a bit more expensive. > >Hmm...perhaps a few examples would help? > >Simple examples include: >======================== >Detect Magic on a group of items or Read Languages on an ancient map >would cost 100gp. >Wizard Locking a portal or making a Continual Light effect would cost 200gp. >Getting Teleported would cost 500gp. According to Thyatian Trail Map 1 the _minimum_ cost for a teleport is 500gp, but it can vary much with increasing distance (don't know why) > >Getting more complicated: >========================= >To Analyse a magical item - As there is only a percentage chance of success, >it *may* be necessary to cast this spell multiple times to get a successful >result. However, since the MU is selling a service, I usually make it cost >100gp per magical characteristic discovered, plus 100gp to determine that >the item has no other magical characteristics. However, cost of circumventing >unfortunate consequences brought on by the Analyse are always passed on to >the client, and may have legal consequences depending on the country and >whether the client signed a contract. > >In addition, an Analyse is frequently preceded by a Detect Magic (@ 100gp ;-). > Well, usually is the mage or the cleric of the party (if any) that casts Detect Magic before Analysing an item. Moreover if you don't cast a Detect Magic and then fail to Analyse an item you may think that the item is non-magical, so avoiding further expenses. >Your original question asked about Clerical spells, like Raise Dead, etc., >but all of the above pertains pretty much exclusively to Magic-Users, and >does not consider Clerics. I pretty much agree with Robert Kaelin regarding >priestly magic costs being more subjective, and based on devotion and >goals of the order. If you consider that the priest must justify every >use of the blessings and miracles lent to him or her by the patron every >time the priest goes to meditate, it becomes easier to decide what >compensation to demand. And remember to require a service in the price of >clerical magic whenever possible - one that furthers the goals of the >church or the patron. IMO there should be a standard Price List also for Clerical spells, then I will charge half the price a devout follower and will not cast any spell on someone that worships an enemy of my Immortals (e.g. a follower of Rad, or Rafiel going to a temple of Ixion). Anyway I think nobody will ask a favour to an enemy temple. I recall an episode happened IMC: while resting in a village in Sind the shaman of Rafiel (I've a party of Shadow Elves as you probably know) went to a temple of Ixion (one of his many names) trying to be hired for healing people with his Staff. Well, Rafiel let him know (via the DM) that he didn't agree.. Going back to the main subject (clerical spells) I think that a cleric should try also to gather new followers for his church, and casting spell with minimal charge on someone that needs them desperately and is not a devout follower of another immortal can be a good way of doing this. Last but not least there are the goals of a church and here things become difficult. Will, for example, a cleric of Hel cast a Raise Dead ? I doubt it, maybe he will told to the PC of doing that, but then he will secretly cast Animate Dead and tell the party that the spell went awry and the corpse was destroyed... Imagine a cleric of Thanatos raising someone from death.... > >In most cases, I would require the character to freely accept a Quest >spell (therefore, no saving throw) in order to get priestly magical aid >from an order that is not venerated by the character. Don't ask for a >favour if you don't want to owe a favour! > Yes, this is good for high level spells, such as raise dead, but no one would accept a Quest in order to get a Heal Light Wounds. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #102 ***************************** mystara-digest Thursday, 25 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 103 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Morris Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 20:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Robert Kaelin wrote: > > >The biggest difference between Immortals and Powers, however, is that > >mortals become Immortal on a fairy regular basis whereas only on very > >rare occassions do mortals become Powers. TSR may not have meant any > >distinction originally, but now there is one. > > This isn't a distinction. In TSR's most active world, the Forgotten > Realms, there have been at least 4 characters (mortals) in several recent > novels who have attained some version of GodHood. > All of them were mortals who had achieved Godhood. 2 were granted it by Ao > (whom I consider to be an Old One). 1 achieved demi-goddom by slaying > another demi-god on his home plane, and Kelemvor became a power by > siphoning a portfolio directly from a Greater Power in a moment of > weakness. (I can't get a hands on a copy of Faiths and Avatars yet so if > what I just said is technically wrong don't toast me, please.:-) ) Actually, this is what I mean by a distinction. Only two of them recieved their "power"hood from another Power. Immortals reproduce themselves by forcing their proteges to follow a specific path and then granting them Immortalhood. In the realms, it even took Ao the Ubergod (or Old One) to bring a mortal to the status of Power. Another example (one I was more thinking along the lines of when I wrote the above) are the Powers of the Birthright setting. They were all formerly mortals who recieved their Powerhood when they were at a "Battle of the Gods" on their world. I'd be inclined to say that they were all Immortals who don't want to spend the power to have a "child" clinging to them... :) > When you consider this is 4 mortals all gaining immortality in 3 seperate > incidents, over a span of 10 game years it's probably more common now then > it ever was in Mystara. :-) Hmmm...Okay, I'll grant that one :) > Immortals are powers, just like the "gods" of other campaign worlds. (I'm > not debating whether an immortal is the same as a god in our real-world, > just the game ones.) I still don't think that they are the same as the gods of other worlds, if only because they advance in power and can be killed. I do think they have comparable power levels of the gods and fulfil the same function, so if it looks like a duck... :) - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Well ... I was amused by it anyway." - one of my standard excuses ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 23:51:32 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > Last but not least there are the goals of a church and here things become > difficult. Will, for example, a cleric of Hel cast a Raise Dead ? I doubt > it, maybe he will told to the PC of doing that, but then he will secretly > cast Animate Dead and tell the party that the spell went awry and the corpse > was destroyed... Actualy, a cleric of Hel, would probably be most willing to cast raise dead, as one of Hel's specialties is re-incarnation and corruption. Hel would love another chance to further corrupt a PC before they die, so as to add to Entropy's power. A good cleric would be LESS likely to raise a dead good character feeling that it wouldn't be right to deny that character everlasting rest that they deserve. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 23:45:41 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > At 11.06 24/04/96 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: > > > Don't forget a dragon's most powerful weapon, it's MAGIC. Prepare > >the dragon early with all it's spells and have it's defensive and > >protective one's already cast before the party gets there... Calculate the > >dragon's treasure BEFORE the fight and let the dragon use some of it's > >wands of fireballs or whatever magic it has in there... If the dragon is > >losing have it retreat with a large portion of it's treause... But ALWAYS > >remember that dragons cast spells!!! Very dangerous... > > > Well, not all dragons have spell and casting defensive spells before the > party gets to the lair seems a bit unfair IMO, unless the dragons knows in > advance of the PC. > I've also problems in figuring out how a dragon can use a wand, how can he > bear it ? Well, it might look pretty small in the dragons hands, but letting the dragon use a wand shouldn't be that hard. Why would a dragon keep an item he can't use? Maybe the wands & rings etc.. in his hoard are dragon sized... That would certainly lessen the amount of power a party got from a dragons hoard. Some of the treasure, of course, would be human sized ( from previous adventurers who weren't quite as fortunate ). As for dragons knowing in advance about PC's, dragon's arent stupid, they have henchmen ( or henchhumanoids ) that could warn them and don't forget divination spells or warning traps. Dragon's are REAL smart, it's how they get so old, so make them act like it... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 23:58:44 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Jeremy Morris writes: > > On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Robert Kaelin wrote: > > > > > >The biggest difference between Immortals and Powers, however, is that > > >mortals become Immortal on a fairy regular basis whereas only on very > > >rare occassions do mortals become Powers. TSR may not have meant any > > >distinction originally, but now there is one. > > > > This isn't a distinction. In TSR's most active world, the Forgotten > > Realms, there have been at least 4 characters (mortals) in several recent > > novels who have attained some version of GodHood. > > > All of them were mortals who had achieved Godhood. 2 were granted it by Ao > > (whom I consider to be an Old One). 1 achieved demi-goddom by slaying > > another demi-god on his home plane, and Kelemvor became a power by > > siphoning a portfolio directly from a Greater Power in a moment of > > weakness. (I can't get a hands on a copy of Faiths and Avatars yet so if > > what I just said is technically wrong don't toast me, please.:-) ) > Actually, this is what I mean by a distinction. Only two of them > recieved their "power"hood from another Power. Immortals reproduce > themselves by forcing their proteges to follow a specific path and then > granting them Immortalhood. In the realms, it even took Ao the Ubergod > (or Old One) to bring a mortal to the status of Power. Actually, if you remember correctly, not all immortals had a sponsor either, if my memory serves Rad, Rafiel, Benekander and Harrow all were without sponsors, yet became immortal anyway. An Old One could probably elevate a mortal to immortal status in some kind of experiment ( like Ao and the Time of Troubles in the Realms )... Hhhhmmm... The Radiance? ;) think about it.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:26:52 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" jduncan wrote: > This is just a question, but are my messages getting through? I'm > not really sure, if someone would respond and let me know that they are > being added to the list i would appreciate it. thanks! > "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" > Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca Yes sir, they are coming thru. And to business: So faw only one poster noted the excistence of the fairies (and his was a nice post, but not a system I would use in Mystara (too much Tolkien)). As it is said in the Wee Folk of Forest (the cruzible 1, i'm not sure of the name) the fairies were once like the immortals, but then there was some problem which ended up them becoming the fairy-folk. (At least this is what i recall- I better check the thing) Anyways, Where do you put the fairies. They are immortals, but... And a point some seem to forget: According to the WoTI, the immortals can create planets and life (at least the more powerful ones). If a Immortal creates a planet and some creatures to it, does it make him a god (as a creator :) Myself I dont make so big a difference between the high level immortals and the gods. Even though lower-level immos are more like Demi-gods, Heroes of the legends, the higher level immortals (who are not so numerous) are powerful enough to be called gods. They are able to create and destroy planets and life, create species, etc. And they are worshipped too. In my campaings I let the gods (the hierarcs) get away with braking the rules etc, as long as they stay in their own domains (as in Ixion uses the sun and light to do his missions, Terra uses earth and animals to bid his deeds, etc). The hierarcs are allmost omniponent ower the mortal and the low-level immos, in effect, gods. just my campaing though... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:14:13 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Well, not all dragons have spell and casting defensive spells before the > party gets to the lair seems a bit unfair IMO, unless the dragons knows in > advance of the PC. Those dragons that have spells can (and some will) have spells they can use to protect their lair allways. > I've also problems in figuring out how a dragon can use a wand, how can he > bear it ? i'd say in their fore-pawns or hands or anything. Though I dont think all dragons would use wands even though they had them at least not if the situation wouldn't be really bad. But about the money... 1. Dragons and other really rich monsters are not so common 2. Heroes gaining fame as dragon-slayers, might get some proplems coming when other dragons would start coveting their lifes (and their treasures 3. The party should have need for money too. Ewerything cost: living, studying, taking care of properties (houses, armor etc), creating spells and magical items, etc. Also there are taxes. 10% to the church (mandatory to the priestes. And will the party-priest even help the others if they dont pay their dues to the church?) 10-25% (at least) to the state (or there will be trouble...) In my campaings the character have eventually gained a lot of money, but also they have needed it. Usually some of the characters even needed more and needed to lend from others. And eventually all the money have gone to something (castle, boat, jewelery, magical construction, fees to teachers etc) Just something... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:59:57 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > According to Thyatian Trail Map 1 the _minimum_ cost for a teleport is > 500gp, but it can vary much with increasing distance (don't know why) It quite simple. The price comes from the needs of the customer, not the True prize of the product. For excample think, how much value would the customer give to a teleport which would save him 5 days of normal journeying. Excpecially if hes in a hurry. quite much. Then think if the journey was one of 25 days. the value would surely be much more. So, why shoulnt a mage ask more for a greater service to the customer. At least as long as the customer is still willing to pay. Even though the service is really the same (casting a spell) to the mage, its really different to the customer. The mages are intelligent, remember. So they surely will understand this as a business opportunity. using the same principles a really business oriented mage might ask different payments for various areas in the same distances; oh you want to get over that mountain? Ower some dangerous area, over pirate infested dea etc. What really matters is the hardness and dangers of travelling by other means, and the need for speed. > Last but not least there are the goals of a church and here things become > difficult. Will, for example, a cleric of Hel cast a Raise Dead ? I doubt > it, maybe he will told to the PC of doing that, but then he will secretly > cast Animate Dead and tell the party that the spell went awry and the corpse > was destroyed... > Imagine a cleric of Thanatos raising someone from death.... From ???@??? Fri Apr 26 13:01:03 1996 X-UIDL: ca4495b78f9b6fd455ae0818afa5186e Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA02604; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 04:47:26 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA07834 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:05:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:05:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199604251805.NAA07834@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #103 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Status: RO Actually as hel is the god of death and reincarnation (at least in sind) he truly might raise dead (for the RIGHT fee). Thanatos on other hand... Evil grin... One more thing to note is the acceptance of the public. In a medieval world the peoples are quite supertitious. They might be horrified if a dead man would be back to life. Excpecially so if the culture had a death accepting religion. Say, in Norse lands they worship Odin. Suppose a follower died in battle. peoples would sing for him and wish him good luck on the way to valhalla. Then a cleric would raise him, in effect robbing him from a great afterlife in valhalla. It would be a crime, for sure. Something only an evil and twisted god would allow. The poor soul woud propably be shunned and maby even forced off the community. And the same goes with the pries who raised him. then offcourse it could be different if a priest of Odin raised him to give him an other change to get to valhalla (I dont think Odin would support this wery often). The raising might be accepted, but still, peoples would propably hawe difficulties dealing with the thing. After all the man would have died an dishonest dead, and also visited the realm of hell... Just some thoughts... - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:08:24 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Well, not all dragons have spell and casting defensive spells before the > party gets to the lair seems a bit unfair IMO, unless the dragons knows in > advance of the PC. > I've also problems in figuring out how a dragon can use a wand, how can he > bear it ? As someone else said, they can wield them in their claws... Council of Wyrms, boxed set, describes dragons with abilities (str, dex. int, etc...) the dex score determines how well developed their claws are. a dragon with 16 or more (i think) has claws with which they can wield wands etc... Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:28:56 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > > > Last but not least there are the goals of a church and here things become > > difficult. Will, for example, a cleric of Hel cast a Raise Dead ? I doubt > > it, maybe he will told to the PC of doing that, but then he will secretly > > cast Animate Dead and tell the party that the spell went awry and the corpse > > was destroyed... > > Actualy, a cleric of Hel, would probably be most willing to cast > raise dead, as one of Hel's specialties is re-incarnation and corruption. > Hel would love another chance to further corrupt a PC before they die, so > as to add to Entropy's power. A good cleric would be LESS likely to raise > a dead good character feeling that it wouldn't be right to deny that > character everlasting rest that they deserve. Hmm, you have a point, but still, resurrecting someone will only be to postpone their everlasting rest a little, and compared to all eternity, a mans life isnt much time... However I think clerics would be somewhat restrictive with their ressurection. A person must have some unfinnished job to do or something.. Again this will vary depending on the belief of each church... Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 06:05:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money > > > Don't forget a dragon's most powerful weapon, it's MAGIC. I think the dragon's most powerful weapons are (in order) polymorphing (those that can) and magic (those that can't.) I agree with Jody to a degree. But what is more dangerous is a dragon who is casting a spell at you, or a dragon who does not look like a dragon. If I feel real real sneaky (I rarely use dragons, prefer giants) I will have the dragon polymorphed into a beggar or something, the character inevitably kick him around or ruff him up (lawful, what's that?) then POOF uh-oh, you guys messed up now....it's pretty funny. Prepare > > >the dragon early with all it's spells and have it's defensive and > > >protective one's already cast before the party gets there... Calculate the > > >dragon's treasure BEFORE the fight and let the dragon use some of it's > > >wands of fireballs or whatever magic it has in there... If the dragon is > > >losing have it retreat with a large portion of it's treause... But ALWAYS Have it retreat when the dragon is down to about 1/4 his original hit points, let him heal for a while, then when the characters least suspect it....Also, since they find themselves so rich on the newly found horde, tax the crap out of it in the next city. Another thing (Dragon's Tomb, by D. J. Heinrich) the dragon lives (literally) on it's treasure for years and years and years (etc.) so it is "infused" with the aura of the dragon. It knows where it's sutff is. Also, there is kind of a mesmerizing effect of the treasure. Most characters do not know what a pile of treasure is, or looks like so when they see it the are literally awe sturck, apply some kinda of fear, or saving throw every turn they are in there to make them leave, or become hypnotized or something. Make them keep paying for the dragon for a a long, long time..... > > Well, not all dragons have spell and casting defensive spells before the > > party gets to the lair seems a bit unfair IMO, unless the dragons knows in > > advance of the PC. A dragon is a most untrusting creature, I believe he would have magical traps etc.. all around his/her lair. Not to mecntion the lair it self "should" (could) be completely hidden. > Well, it might look pretty small in the dragons hands, but letting > the dragon use a wand shouldn't be that hard. Why would a dragon keep an I agree with this part, if a giant can use one (which is sized for a human), so can a dragon. If the dragon is nimble enough to cast the semantic (right word?) portion of a spell, it can use a wand. > item he can't use? Maybe the wands & rings etc.. in his hoard are dragon > sized... That would certainly lessen the amount of power a party got from > a dragons hoard. Some of the treasure, of course, would be human sized ( Disagree with this one...no dragon sized stuff. Sorry. Have fun Joe ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Just to add more fuel onto the fire... :) In the Immortal-level adventure module, IM2, The Wrath of Olympus, the main plot involves a group of Immortals taking the names of and setting themselves up as greek Gods. Mortals and Immortals alike are outraged at their effrontry.. And in the Karameikos boxed set (duck from the ad&d2 haters.. :) ), there's an amusing little sidebar: The Nature of the Immortals Amando: Does this place have gods? Rejondo? Gods? What are these gods? Amando: Beings of great power who meddle in the daily affairs of mortals, demand worship, and wreak havoc wherever they pass. Rejondo: Nay, we have Immortals here! Amando: What are these Immortals? Rejondo: Beings of great power who meddle in the daily affairs of mortals and wreak havoc wherever they pass. But they only occasionally demand worship. Amando: Ah! I feel much more secure now. From /Inn Between the Worlds/ By Emilio the Great. Then there's a short discussion stating that Immortals aren't gods, just mortals who've advanced far beyond their peers, sometimes forgetting their mortal roots, occasionally taking a distant god's name. IMC, the Immortals are just as described in the WotI (and somtimes gold Immortals set), and the Old Ones (btw, do we have any real evidence they're plural? :) ) are the equivilant of Ao in the Realms or the Highgod in Krynn, possibly simply gods from elsewhere.. but why take away their mystery and majesty by giving them statistics? :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:52:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" >Just to add more fuel onto the fire... :) Great! Let me get the marshmellows. :-) >Then there's a short discussion stating that Immortals aren't gods, just >mortals who've advanced far beyond their peers, sometimes forgetting >their mortal roots, occasionally taking a distant god's name. I like this to a certain degree. IMC, an immortal who named himself Zeus would not be Zeus, but the only difference in their powers is that the original Zeus has been immortal for a long, long time and hence has followings in dozens of worlds that are older then most of the other Gods. However, age and level would be the only differences in power. After many milleniums, some smarts, and a lot of luck the Immortal zeus would be every bit as powerful as the God. >IMC, the Immortals are just as described in the WotI (and somtimes gold >Immortals set), and the Old Ones (btw, do we have any real evidence >they're plural? :) ) are the equivilant of Ao in the Realms or the >Highgod in Krynn, possibly simply gods from elsewhere.. but why take away >their mystery and majesty by giving them statistics? :) > If you believe the Gold Box, the two immortals who made it to Hierarch level and then gave it up to become mortal, twice, became Old Ones. (No being on Mystara's side of the Vortex knows this of course, but it's speculated.) This would put the "known" count at 3 (assuming the one who converted the engine of the Beagle into the Nucleus of the Spheres and the one who shows up at the end of WotI are the same one.) I agree that there should never be stats for Old Ones, but there's every indication there is someone, or something above the Old Ones. In the Gold Box it points out the Old Ones found the multiverse, they did not create it, and Ao reports to some other being at the end of the Time of Troubles on FR calling him "Master." I assume there is one Old One per world (or dimension, plane, crystal sphere, etc.). Each Old One is "in charge" of keeping his worlds Gods and/or Immortals in line, and making sure they tend to the world properly. IMC, the two heirarchs who were made into Old Ones were just given brand new worlds to be the OverGod in charge of. "OK, (bing) here's a new system on the Prime Plane teaming with basic life. Here are the keys, go create some sentient beings, either create some Gods or give your beings a way to achieve Immortality, let them handle the minor stuff (Wars, plagues, invasions from other dimensions, etc.) and just keep them in line and make sure they don't abuse their power. Report back to me in 2 milliion years, and not a second later." Who's actually above the Old Ones? I liked the idea someone else put forth, the Old Ones report to the DM. :-) I've always wanted to detail these two new worlds created by the 2 new Old Ones, complete with their own pantheons of Immortals but I don't even have the time to make that one mage's tower I've been working on. :-P I have, however, tentatively named one of the Hierarchs who made it to become an Old One Ao. (Call me petty but it gives me some small satisfaction to say that life in the Realms started because of some Immortal from Mystara.) :-) - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: StarHawk Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money All this discussion about how to limit the amount of treasure a party gets from killing a dragon got me thinking. I think the easiest may to limit it is encumberance. How many parties can carry an entire dragon horde? How many parties actually carry enough bags to put the treasure in, and then bandits and such are going to try and rob them while they're so loaded with treasure they can't fight. They'll have to put down some of the sacks to fight, at which point a few thieves grab a bag or two and run off. ______________ |] |] |]ruce | ierpont ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 12:53:44 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Robert Kaelin writes: > > > >IMC, the Immortals are just as described in the WotI (and somtimes gold > >Immortals set), and the Old Ones (btw, do we have any real evidence > >they're plural? :) ) are the equivilant of Ao in the Realms or the > >Highgod in Krynn, possibly simply gods from elsewhere.. but why take away > >their mystery and majesty by giving them statistics? :) > > > > If you believe the Gold Box, the two immortals who made it to Hierarch > level and then gave it up to become mortal, twice, became Old Ones. (No > being on Mystara's side of the Vortex knows this of course, but it's > speculated.) This would put the "known" count at 3 (assuming the one who > converted the engine of the Beagle into the Nucleus of the Spheres and the > one who shows up at the end of WotI are the same one.) You forgot one. Rad. Rasd becomes an Old One at at the end of the Wrath Of The Immortals..... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #103 ***************************** From ???@??? Fri Apr 26 13:01:13 1996 X-UIDL: 9a36c640105beceb6f80e10ec88b48bb Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA12480; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:57:17 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA00713 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:40:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:40:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199604260140.UAA00713@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #104 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, 25 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 104 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Date: 25 Apr 1996 16:59:40 GMT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" One distinction that hasn't been addressed so far is that Immortals gain their power from the five spheres, and have alligiences to their spheres, while gods have no such restrictions or alligences. Andrew ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 12:47:02 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost Haavard Roenne Faanes writes: > > On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > > > Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > > > > > Last but not least there are the goals of a church and here things become > > > difficult. Will, for example, a cleric of Hel cast a Raise Dead ? I doubt > > > it, maybe he will told to the PC of doing that, but then he will secretly > > > cast Animate Dead and tell the party that the spell went awry and the corpse > > > was destroyed... > > > > Actualy, a cleric of Hel, would probably be most willing to cast > > raise dead, as one of Hel's specialties is re-incarnation and corruption. > > Hel would love another chance to further corrupt a PC before they die, so > > as to add to Entropy's power. A good cleric would be LESS likely to raise > > a dead good character feeling that it wouldn't be right to deny that > > character everlasting rest that they deserve. > > Hmm, you have a point, but still, resurrecting someone will only be to > postpone their everlasting rest a little, and compared to all eternity, a > mans life isnt much time... > However I think clerics would be somewhat restrictive with their > ressurection. A person must have some unfinnished job to do or something.. > Again this will vary depending on the belief of each church... Well, this is just a repetition of what others and i have said, but ( especially in a Norse setting ) it would almost be considered a crime for a good priest to raise a good character, thus robbing them of the good afterlife ( valhala, heaven, happy hunting grounds etc... ) An evil priest would be most willing to rob them of this chance. A raised character might also be looked upon with some superstition or even be considered undead! In Sind the Rishyas will only raise evil chjaracters to give them a chance to repent..... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Robert Kaelin wrote: > >Just to add more fuel onto the fire... :) > > Great! Let me get the marshmellows. :-) > I can bring the hot dogs... > >Then there's a short discussion stating that Immortals aren't gods, just > >mortals who've advanced far beyond their peers, sometimes forgetting > >their mortal roots, occasionally taking a distant god's name. > > However, age and level would be the only differences in power. After many > milleniums, some smarts, and a lot of luck the Immortal zeus would be every > bit as powerful as the God. Assuming, of course, that the original Zeus didn't seek out and destroy the uppity Immortal using his name ;) > >IMC, the Immortals are just as described in the WotI (and somtimes gold > >Immortals set), and the Old Ones (btw, do we have any real evidence > >they're plural? :) ) are the equivilant of Ao in the Realms or the > >Highgod in Krynn, possibly simply gods from elsewhere.. but why take away > >their mystery and majesty by giving them statistics? :) > > If you believe the Gold Box, the two immortals who made it to Hierarch > level and then gave it up to become mortal, twice, became Old Ones. (No > being on Mystara's side of the Vortex knows this of course, but it's > speculated.) This would put the "known" count at 3 (assuming the one who > converted the engine of the Beagle into the Nucleus of the Spheres and the > one who shows up at the end of WotI are the same one.) Ah, but the one who played with the Beagle's engine and appeared at the end of WotI COULD be the same as one of the Hierarchs that "transcended" to become an Old One. After all, the Old One's have probably mastered all of the spheres, and Time would have no more affect on them than Entropy would... > I assume there is one Old One per world (or dimension, plane, crystal > sphere, etc.). Each Old One is "in charge" of keeping his worlds Gods > and/or Immortals in line, and making sure they tend to the world properly. > IMC, the two heirarchs who were made into Old Ones were just given brand > new worlds to be the OverGod in charge of. "OK, (bing) here's a new system > on the Prime Plane teaming with basic life. Here are the keys, go create > some sentient beings, either create some Gods or give your beings a way to > achieve Immortality, let them handle the minor stuff (Wars, plagues, > invasions from other dimensions, etc.) and just keep them in line and make > sure they don't abuse their power. Report back to me in 2 milliion years, > and not a second later." Who's actually above the Old Ones? I liked the > idea someone else put forth, the Old Ones report to the DM. :-) I like this, to an extent. I'm not so sure that the Old Ones should be the caretakers of individual Prime Planes, after all, that's what Immortals/Gods seem to be for. I see the Old Ones more like the Immortals of the multiverse, watching over the whole multiverse like Immortals watch over the Primes. > I've always wanted to detail these two new worlds created by the 2 new Old > Ones, complete with their own pantheons of Immortals but I don't even have > the time to make that one mage's tower I've been working on. :-P I have, > however, tentatively named one of the Hierarchs who made it to become an > Old One Ao. (Call me petty but it gives me some small satisfaction to say > that life in the Realms started because of some Immortal from Mystara.) :-) Now that's funny :) However, I don't know if I want to blame the realms on one of the Mystaran Immortals... BTW: Does anyone know if one of the Hierarchs was supposed to be Verthandi? It says in the Codex in his little blurb of a description that he just disappeared. Is he supposed to be one of the "transcended" Hierarchs? - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "...and I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!" - Any Villain from Scooby-Doo ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:12:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost At 08:59 AM 4/25/96 +0200, Pasi Anias wrote: >Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > >> According to Thyatian Trail Map 1 the _minimum_ cost for a teleport is >> 500gp, but it can vary much with increasing distance (don't know why) > >It quite simple. The price comes from the needs of the customer, not the >True prize of the product. For excample think, how much value would the >customer give to a teleport which would save him 5 days of normal >journeying. Excpecially if hes in a hurry. quite much. Then think if the >journey was one of 25 days. the value would surely be much more. So, why >shoulnt a mage ask more for a greater service to the customer. At least as >long as the customer is still willing to pay. Even though the service is >really the same (casting a spell) to the mage, its really different to the >customer. The mages are intelligent, remember. So they surely will >understand this as a business opportunity. > >using the same principles a really business oriented mage might ask >different payments for various areas in the same distances; oh you want to >get over that mountain? Ower some dangerous area, over pirate infested dea >etc. What really matters is the hardness and dangers of travelling by >other means, and the need for speed. There's another factor that goes beyond business sense and should be legitimate even from the point of view of the buyer, and that is that since the wizard needs to have gone to that place and studied it long and hard to be able to teleport someone there will a low chance of failure, the increased cost at longer distances accounts for the cost and danger the wizard incurred in getting to and researching the place way back whenever. It's the equivalent of R&D (research and development) costs that make products more expensive than production costs alone would suggest. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 21:03:43 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Shadow Elves economics When my PC adventured in the Shadow Elves territories I wrote down a classification of the 4 main cities based on the economical system given in Gaz9 and Gaz11. I send it to you, maybe someone is interested... City of the Stars B Common Metals -2, Mounts -2 Armors +2, Weapons +2, Tobacco +2 New Grunland C Food -3, Beer (Fungal) -2 Silk +3, Weapons +2 Alfmyr D Precious Metals -2, Armors -2, Weapons -2 Food +2, Wood (Fungal) +2 Losetrel E Silk -3, Textiles -2, Cloth -2 Food +3, Oil +2, Dye +2 Obviously rare products coming from the surface sells at high prices everywhere, particularly leather (10 times surface price) and wood. If you have similar charts for towns not listed in Gaz 9-11 please send them, my PC love to act as traders while travelling. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 22:09:57 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Re: Raise Dead (was: Spell Cost) At 08.59 25/04/96 +0200, Anias Pasi wrote: > >Actually as hel is the god of death and reincarnation (at least in sind) >he truly might raise dead (for the RIGHT fee). Thanatos on other hand... >Evil grin... Reincarnation is not the same as raise dead. Hel (aka Kala in Sind) likes to reicarnate the souls of evil dead people in the body of newborn children (especially noble ones) to spread even more death and chaos on Mystara. This can't be made using raise dead, because in this way the soul goes back in its original body. > >One more thing to note is the acceptance of the public. In a medieval >world the peoples are quite supertitious. They might be horrified if a >dead man would be back to life. Excpecially so if the culture had a death >accepting religion. Say, in Norse lands they worship Odin. Suppose a >follower died in battle. peoples would sing for him and wish him good luck >on the way to valhalla. Then a cleric would raise him, in effect robbing >him from a great afterlife in valhalla. It would be a crime, for sure. >Something only an evil and twisted god would allow. The poor soul woud >propably be shunned and maby even forced off the community. And the same >goes with the pries who raised him. > then offcourse it could be different if a priest of Odin raised him to >give him an other change to get to valhalla (I dont think Odin would >support this wery often). The raising might be accepted, but still, >peoples would propably hawe difficulties dealing with the thing. After all >the man would have died an dishonest dead, and also visited the realm of >hell... > You're right, but, as you said, it depends from the culture and the beliefs From ???@??? Fri Apr 26 13:01:13 1996 X-UIDL: 9a36c640105beceb6f80e10ec88b48bb Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA12480; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:57:17 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA00713 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:40:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:40:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199604260140.UAA00713@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #104 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk of the church. In Sind, as someone pointed out, Rishiyas won't raise you from the dead, but probably that's not true in other countries, especially in a magic-rich world like Mystara, for example Alphatia or Thyatis. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:03:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" >> If you believe the Gold Box, the two immortals who made it to Hierarch >> level and then gave it up to become mortal, twice, became Old Ones. (No >> being on Mystara's side of the Vortex knows this of course, but it's >> speculated.) This would put the "known" count at 3 (assuming the one who >> converted the engine of the Beagle into the Nucleus of the Spheres and the >> one who shows up at the end of WotI are the same one.) > >Ah, but the one who played with the Beagle's engine and appeared at the >end of WotI COULD be the same as one of the Hierarchs that "transcended" >to become an Old One. After all, the Old One's have probably mastered >all of the spheres, and Time would have no more affect on them than >Entropy would... > An excellent point that I had overlooked. However, that leaves the question of who sent the blackballs to the hierarchs when they became Old Ones. If there were no Old Ones before the Immortals transcended, how did the Immortals know about them? (unless it's some really wierd self-fufilling prophecy, which is an interesting side-thought.) Of course, the Old Ones, with their mastery over time, could have easily sponsored themselves as Hierarchs, much the same way Khronus did. So, I'll change my answer to "at least 2 known ones, probably at least 3." :-) >I like this, to an extent. I'm not so sure that the Old Ones should be >the caretakers of individual Prime Planes, after all, that's what >Immortals/Gods seem to be for. I see the Old Ones more like the >Immortals of the multiverse, watching over the whole multiverse like >Immortals watch over the Primes. With no apparent end to the possible number of gods or immortals, it seems reasonable to believe the Old Ones areat least watching the Immortals/Gods for troublemakers, potential Old Ones, or anything else "Interesting". Whether there's a direct corelation between "one world-one Old One" or not isn't that important. In the Realms AO actually wrote down what each God's task was, on the Tablets of Fate. Perhaps some Old Ones just like the idea of being head of a bunch of Gods for a few Eons. After all, there's plenty of time (in the past, present or future) for running about the Multiverse. :-) - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:06:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money StarHawk wrote: > > All this discussion about how to limit the amount of treasure a party gets > from killing a dragon got me thinking. I think the easiest may to limit > it is encumberance. How many parties can carry an entire dragon horde? > How many parties actually carry enough bags to put the treasure in, and > then bandits and such are going to try and rob them while they're so > loaded with treasure they can't fight. They'll have to put down some of > the sacks to fight, at which point a few thieves grab a bag or two and run > off.Unfourtunately, this only works once. I actually did this to a party, next time they went out, they bought 500 sakcs and 2 wagons with 4 draft horses. Yes they actually took the time to haul out all the treasure they could find and (even looked into this one and it was all good) worked out how much to put in each wagon, both spatially and by pound. He got me on that one. Ever since (6 years ago) they have always had a "trust fund" each contributes to to inevitably replace the wagons and horses with, as I tend to destroy the wagons for them very frequently :) ok.....it is a good idea though. Joe ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 16:41 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money At 11:59 AM 4/24/96 +0200, you wrote: >Treasure > I have a little problem. I think that some monsters have too much treasure, >for example, if you kill a dragon, you can gain abaut 50000 gp!!! and a party > of 4 12th level characters can kill small dragons easily. >In such a way characters become rich in a single adventure and they can >buy any sort of spells or magic weapons becaming even more powerful. >How do you solve this problem? > > > Paolo Avogadro >paoloa@ing.unico.it > > Also, thieves, taxes, levies, fees, tithes, guild dues, training, inflation, etc., etc., etc. If you can get any of the Poor Wizards Almanac's, they have a nice list on taxes to use. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 17:04 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" >mortals become Immortal on a fairy regular basis... No they don't, if you use the immortality achievement guidelines the way they are presented. David Melik ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 17:05 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" >I apologise, David, for misreading that "where" as a "what", and >responding with my dumb response. I'm getting senile in my old age :( > It's okay, don't worry about it. :) David ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 17:07 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 05:11 PM 4/24/96 EDT, you wrote: > This is just a question, but are my messages getting through? I'm >not really sure, if someone would respond and let me know that they are >being added to the list i would appreciate it. thanks! > Yes, they are. David Melik ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 19:31:41 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money StarHawk writes: > > > All this discussion about how to limit the amount of treasure a party gets > from killing a dragon got me thinking. I think the easiest may to limit > it is encumberance. How many parties can carry an entire dragon horde? > How many parties actually carry enough bags to put the treasure in, and > then bandits and such are going to try and rob them while they're so > loaded with treasure they can't fight. They'll have to put down some of > the sacks to fight, at which point a few thieves grab a bag or two and run > off. I remember when i was a player i ran into this problem and we solved it by using a wagon. We had a REAL big wagon with like four draft horses or so... We did get attacked by bandits but we managed to beat them all.... The only real way i can see around this is to have the bandits steal the PC's wagon ( or whatever ) WHILE they're off fighting the dragon... Then steal the treasure while the PC's look for their wagon... heh! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 16:49 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 11:03 AM 4/24/96 EDT, you wrote: >Shin Chyang Yu writes: >> >> Just throwing in my two cents. >> >> God is immortal and immortal is god. Just sometime in the past >> people in the TSR decided to call gods in Mystara immortals for >> one reason or the other. My guess is that the OD&D (and thus its >> gameworld, Mystara) was aimed toward younger audience, and TSR >> decided to use the term immortal so those children's parent will >> not get upset. This is also the reason that there are no religions >> in Mystara, just different "philosophise" and clerics don't prey >> for their spells, they "meditate." Basicly, Mystara was just a >> game world they can point to if any religious right people come >> after them. > > I think that's the official version of what happened, it just >happens that since the game mechanics were different in OD&D and AD&D that >Immortals ended up being more powerful than deities. If i was going to use >both pantheons, i would convert to either the Deities system, or to the >Immortals system.... > They are more powerful, aren't they? How come so many people said gods were much more powerful? I was referring to 1st ed. Dieties & Demigods, and if you compare the statistics, immortals are more powerful. They can create universe sized planes. Can a 1st ed. god do this (according to Dieties & Demigods), I think not. Is 2nd ed different? David M. ------------------------------ From: StarHawk Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Robert Kaelin writes: > > > > > > > >IMC, the Immortals are just as described in the WotI (and somtimes gold > > >Immortals set), and the Old Ones (btw, do we have any real evidence > > >they're plural? :) ) are the equivilant of Ao in the Realms or the > > >Highgod in Krynn, possibly simply gods from elsewhere.. but why take away > > >their mystery and majesty by giving them statistics? :) > > > > > > > If you believe the Gold Box, the two immortals who made it to Hierarch > > level and then gave it up to become mortal, twice, became Old Ones. (No > > being on Mystara's side of the Vortex knows this of course, but it's > > speculated.) This would put the "known" count at 3 (assuming the one who > > converted the engine of the Beagle into the Nucleus of the Spheres and the > > one who shows up at the end of WotI are the same one.) > > You forgot one. Rad. Rasd becomes an Old One at at the end of the > Wrath Of The Immortals..... > No he doesn't. Read Mark of Amber (IMO the only decent AD&D Mystara product, written by Aaron Allston, Jeff Grubb, and John Ratelif) He was imprisoned by the Old Ones so he could reflect on what he'd done and so they could figure out what to do with him. Any more would be spoilers so I'll stop there. _____________________ |] |] |]ruce | ierpont ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 16:35 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 02:28 PM 4/24/96 +0200, you wrote: >On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > >> > Ranking Humans (and Demihumans above the others is probably normal in the >> > known world, as it was in Medeval Europe, But certainly the Ethengarians >> > would disagree with you. All Mortal creatures that be humans, plants >> > animals or other have a spirit, and humans are a part of nature, not >> > above it. That would be their opinion anyway. Other Shamanistic peoples >> > will share that view... >> Well, just because they view the world a certain way doesnt mean thats >> reality ;> I was just giving my reality > >Yes, I realiza that :) >However I feel that the primitive people are not being taken seriously >enough. They are just guys who go about believing stuff that is not true... >Do we need an official truth? > > >> Aerialbots. I thought you were dead. No matter. You soon will be. >> -Blast Off > >I love those sigs... > >Haavard Faanes > > > The reason I said that mortal status includes animals and plants is because of biology and their power in the game. Humans are not so much more powerful than animals, like immortals are to humans, so they shouldn't be considered separate. Also, animals are mortal, they die, and are in many ways similar to humans. If you like to play it otherwise though, because it's fun though, great do it however you want. Lots of people like realism though too, and this adds fun, and I think this is more realistic. David M. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #104 ***************************** mystara-digest Saturday, 27 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 105 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 16:46 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 05:21 AM 4/24/96 -0400, you wrote: >> Are you stating this as it appears in Dieties & Demigods, or the way you do >> it? I would like to know. From what I saw, D&D immortals are more powerful >> than AD&D gods. I didn't know that AD&D gods had the power of creation of >> worlds and things. So which is it? Your post is interesting. > >Tha's just how it works in my little head. >I base this a little on the Thomas Covenant serires. Lord Foul was a powerful creture >because we was created from part of the power of creation. The Ultimate Good Guy could >not get rid of Lord Foul, though he had the power to do it, because Lord Foul was >created out of the stuff that is Reality. Thus the Good Guy could not get rid of part of >reality without gettting rid of the whole of reality, which he liked to much to destroy >to erase one little blemish. Does that help? > Yes, that's interesting. I've always wanted to read that series, but can't seem to find the 1st book. :( So, is Lord Foul the Ultimate Bad Guy, and do tou use an Ultimate Bad Guy for Mystara? >Besides, when someone says God of god, or whatever, I get the vision of a supremely >powerful being (though he/she does have flaws) who can do anything he/she wants. >The gods created the wolrd, and allow the characters to live in it. So if a god decides >to take that privelage away, it is gone. period. end of discussion. no more character. >No a wizard who was born a mortal who managed to find the secrets of immortality or was >granted immortality by gods (who can therefore take it away) decided a character could >no longer have the privelage of living, the wizrad would have to work at removing ther >privelage because he does no thave the power of "creation" of the "stuff of reality" to >back him up. > >I do not know if I helped or muddled the situation more now :) > It helped me. It's nice to ponder these things and use them for D&D. David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 16:57 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 02:19 AM 4/24/96 -0400, you wrote: >At 09:42 PM 4/23/96 PDT, David Melik wrote: > >>I think that the terms mortal, immortal, demigod, god need some more >>definition for game terms. A good way would perhaps be to use the >>real-world meanings of the words, which I think are like this: >> >>mortal - someone who dies of aging >>immortal - someone who doesn't die of aging (but may or may not appear to >>age much) >>demigod - a powerful being >>god - either a being even more powerful than a demigod, or the difference >>may be they have worshippers (I'm not exactly sure...) >> >>In many versions of Greek and Scandinavian mythology, the gods were >>powerful, yes, able to create things and do wondrous magical spells, godlike >>stuff, you know, or they had not as much power but they did have >>worshippers. They were also mortal. In versions of Greek myth they had to >>have nectar and/or ambrosia for immortality I believe, and in Scandinavian >>myth, they had to eat the apples of Idunn. Maybe they weren't mortal, maybe >>they just apppeared to age but wouldn't die of age. Hmmm... what do you >>think, everyone? > > If you want to use real-world definitions, it should probably be >noted that im/mortality has nothing to do with aging, at least as it regards >Greek myth. > >Mortal=Can die >Immortal=Cannot die >Eternal=Has always existed, will always exist > > Some of the Greek gods were eternal, usually more primal ones like >Night. All of the Greek gods were immortal, and could not die, although as >you point out, according to some accounts their immortality is dependent >upon nectar and ambrosia and they would be mortal without them. > The funny thing is that the D&D Immortals are not (not Immortals) >since they all can be killed. None are eternal, since they can discountinue >existing, but some are eternal in the sense that they always were, or at >least there are implications of this for certain ones. > Those are other definitions, yes, but I think that most of the time it says they must have nectar and ambrosia to prevent aging. I believe in one, a mortal was granted godhood but forgot to ask for immortality so they aged. There should be two other words, so two can refer to aging, and two to dying of other causes. Maybe they are. Does anyone know? This would make the game better. Hmmm... David Melik ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 16:30 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost >The views on poverty may vary from religion to religion, and should have >nothing to do with alignment. Poverty might be seen as a punnishment, and >poor people will be treated as others. Wealth may be viewed as a reward >or as a result of living a life of greed etc... > What I meant was alignment should be considered, for example, a cleric who was CG because of his order would charge more for a spell for someone that was LN instead of CG perhaps, because of the cleric's and orders beliefs. See what I mean. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 21:39:39 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money At 23.45 24/04/96 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: >Fabrizio Paoli writes: >> I've also problems in figuring out how a dragon can use a wand, how can he >> bear it ? > > Well, it might look pretty small in the dragons hands, but letting >the dragon use a wand shouldn't be that hard. Why would a dragon keep an >item he can't use? Because Dragon needs magical items (and treasure) to perform the ceremony of sublimation and become bigger (gain HD) and eventually immortal. This dangerous and painful ceremony is described in an old issue of Dragon Magazine. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:50:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" > You forgot one. Rad. Rasd becomes an Old One at at the end of the >Wrath Of The Immortals..... Nope, in Mark of Amber Rad's fate is revealed. He was punished by the Old One for his reckless neglect of Mystara. He was doomed to a cursed slumber and relive all his life's major moments and failures until he had learned his lesson, to be more respectful and selfless. What happens to Rad in the story depends on what the PC's do in Mark of Amber (or whatever the DM decrees.) He may or may not regain his Immortality, again depending on how successful the PC's are in helping Rad out. So his fate is really up in the air, but he's not an Old One. Nor are they rather pleased with him (when's the last time an Old One appeared just to reprimand an Immortal?) :-) - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > You forgot one. Rad. Rasd becomes an Old One at at the end of the > Wrath Of The Immortals..... Actually, after the events of the Mark of Amber module.... (SPOILERS for Mark of Amber) Rad is returned to Mystara in his identity of Ettienne d'Amberville. (Personally, after how selfish and greedy Rad had acted through the Wrath, I didn't think he deserved to become an Old One. I'm glad that he didn't become an Old One...) - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "This ship cannot withstand the formation of the cosmos." - -Be'lana Torres, Star Trek: Voyager "Death Wish" ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 22:10:00 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money At 06.05 25/04/96 -0400, Joe Duke wrote: > >> item he can't use? Maybe the wands & rings etc.. in his hoard are dragon >> sized... That would certainly lessen the amount of power a party got from >> a dragons hoard. Some of the treasure, of course, would be human sized ( > >Disagree with this one...no dragon sized stuff. Sorry. > And giant sized ? For example a giant sized ring... quite dangerous, imagine the ring falling from the finger of the giant on the head of the PCs... ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 19:46:21 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Black Balls Vs. Sphere of Anihilation.... Robert Kaelin writes: > An excellent point that I had overlooked. However, that leaves the > question of who sent the blackballs to the hierarchs when they became Old > Ones. If there were no Old Ones before the Immortals transcended, how did > the Immortals know about them? (unless it's some really wierd > self-fufilling prophecy, which is an interesting side-thought.) This is sort of a side point, but has anyone else noticed the striking similarity between Black Balls and Sphere's of Anihilation? Hhhmmm.... I'm fairly sure they have a similar evolution background ( at least in the game designers minds... ) but the material on Black Balls is severely lacking in OD&D... It mentions several times that immortals can control Black Balls but it never mentions specifics anywhere ( they can only control them a bit... ). Spheres of Anihilation seem to be a "mortal" version of Black Balls ( in that mortals can sort of control them.. ). Would it be unreasonable to assume that immortals can control a Black Ball in a similar fashion to how mortals control Spheres of Anihilation? Also, how much control would an Immortal have over a Sphere? scary thought.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: andmissinato@email.telpress.it (Missinato Andrea) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 17:19:41 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > At 23.45 24/04/96 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: > >Fabrizio Paoli writes: > >> I've also problems in figuring out how a dragon can use a wand, how can he > >> bear it ? > > > > Well, it might look pretty small in the dragons hands, but letting > >the dragon use a wand shouldn't be that hard. Why would a dragon keep an > >item he can't use? > > Because Dragon needs magical items (and treasure) to perform the ceremony of > sublimation and become bigger (gain HD) and eventually immortal. This > dangerous and painful ceremony is described in an old issue of Dragon Magazine. ************** Mmm, I doubt. The Dragon races are much older than human: when they was on beginning, human's magic item didn't exist still. So why them should use something created by younger races for advance? And how Dragons was advancing before Humans' birth? - -- Verova na pakao, i pakao ima. Hrvatian, the true tongue of Sigil. Andrea Missinato. ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 17:46:14 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 06.05 25/04/96 -0400, Joe Duke wrote: > > > > >> item he can't use? Maybe the wands & rings etc.. in his hoard are dragon > >> sized... That would certainly lessen the amount of power a party got from > >> a dragons hoard. Some of the treasure, of course, would be human sized ( > > > >Disagree with this one...no dragon sized stuff. Sorry. > > > And giant sized ? For example a giant sized ring... quite dangerous, imagine > the ring falling from the finger of the giant on the head of the PCs... Terrible! Who would adventure, when such things could happen to them? ;) But again.... The dragons of Council of The Wyrms use jewlelry and stuff... They are different from other dragons, but if you wanna use it..i guess its okay.. Haavard ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:46:04 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > >mortals become Immortal on a fairy regular basis... > No they don't, if you use the immortality achievement guidelines the way > they are presented. Depends what you mean with fairly regular basis i guess... Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:31:55 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] SPHERESR (was: Gods vs "Immortals") On 25 Apr 1996, Andrew McKinstry wrote: > One distinction that hasn't been addressed so far is that Immortals gain their > power from the five spheres, and have alligiences to their spheres, while > gods have no such restrictions or alligences. Yes... What a sphere is is fairly abstract though.... And the point is that on Mystara..the Spheres are forces... This is something unique to the Mystatan Multiverse.. If you want to use Immortals and Gods, you have to chose.. Do Spheres affect the other worlds and thus also the Gods (IMHO) OR, should you Ignore the Spheres..? Haavard ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:16:25 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] Old ones (was: Re: Gods vs "Immortals") On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > Just to add more fuel onto the fire... :) > > In the Immortal-level adventure module, IM2, The Wrath of Olympus, the > main plot involves a group of Immortals taking the names of and setting > themselves up as greek Gods. Mortals and Immortals alike are outraged at > their effrontry.. Hmmm...havent figured out what to make of that yet... > > IMC, the Immortals are just as described in the WotI (and somtimes gold > Immortals set), and the Old Ones (btw, do we have any real evidence > they're plural? :) ) are the equivilant of Ao in the Realms or the > Highgod in Krynn, possibly simply gods from elsewhere.. but why take away > their mystery and majesty by giving them statistics? :) Well, we dont know anything about the existence of the Old Ones, Only things that could make us suspect it... The Immortals specualte of their EXISTANCE... Its like a religion to them. Ofcourse each individual DM may decide that that they exist, but frankly, I dont see why... The Immortals are Like gods... On the borders of our comprehension. The Old Ones are something The Immortals themself cannot grasp.. It would be meaningless for a mere Mortal to specualte on such matters. Does even plural/singular have any meaning to them... Perhaps they were Immortals, but are now ONE ? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:27:38 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Haavard Roenne Faanes writes: > > > > On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > > > > > > > > Actualy, a cleric of Hel, would probably be most willing to cast > > > raise dead, as one of Hel's specialties is re-incarnation and corruption. > > > Hel would love another chance to further corrupt a PC before they die, so > > > as to add to Entropy's power. A good cleric would be LESS likely to raise > > > a dead good character feeling that it wouldn't be right to deny that > > > character everlasting rest that they deserve. > > > > Hmm, you have a point, but still, resurrecting someone will only be to > > postpone their everlasting rest a little, and compared to all eternity, a > > mans life isnt much time... > > However I think clerics would be somewhat restrictive with their > > ressurection. A person must have some unfinnished job to do or something.. > > Again this will vary depending on the belief of each church... > > Well, this is just a repetition of what others and i have said, > but ( especially in a Norse setting ) it would almost be considered a > crime for a good priest to raise a good character, thus robbing them of > the good afterlife ( valhala, heaven, happy hunting grounds etc... ) An > evil priest would be most willing to rob them of this chance. A raised > character might also be looked upon with some superstition or even be > considered undead! In Sind the Rishyas will only raise evil chjaracters to > give them a chance to repent..... Yes.. I was merely speculating, not relating it to any specific religion.... The Northern Reaches have rules for this, but i cant remember them exactly.. It all depends on the views of each religion... What do the individual Immortals believe? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Robert Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:25:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>Disagree with this one...no dragon sized stuff. Sorry. >And giant sized ? For example a giant sized ring... quite dangerous,imagine >the ring falling from the finger of the giant on the head of the PCs... Oops... sorry I mean no dragon sized magical items like dragon sized rings and wands. Giant sized things would be OK, they have the craftsmen to do it all. Dragons, I suppose, could enslave some hapless dwarf conclave and force the dwaves to make a ring for the dragon. Anything is possible I guess. have fun Joe ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 20:15:23 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > At 02:28 PM 4/24/96 +0200, Haavard Faanes wrote: > >On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > > >> > Ranking Humans (and Demihumans above the others is probably normal in the > >> > known world, as it was in Medeval Europe, But certainly the Ethengarians > >> > would disagree with you. All Mortal creatures that be humans, plants > >> > animals or other have a spirit, and humans are a part of nature, not > >> > above it. That would be their opinion anyway. Other Shamanistic peoples > >> > will share that view... > >> Well, just because they view the world a certain way doesnt mean thats > >> reality ;> I was just giving my reality > > > >Yes, I realiza that :) > >However I feel that the primitive people are not being taken seriously > >enough. They are just guys who go about believing stuff that is not true... > >Do we need an official truth? > The reason I said that mortal status includes animals and plants is because > of biology and their power in the game. Humans are not so much more > powerful than animals, like immortals are to humans, so they shouldn't be > considered separate. Also, animals are mortal, they die, and are in many > ways similar to humans. If you like to play it otherwise though, because > it's fun though, great do it however you want. Lots of people like realism > though too, and this adds fun, and I think this is more realistic. Realism? In a fantasy game? heh Seriously, I know what you mean... But I think both views are reasonable.. Christianity ranks Humans above the other parts of creation. (Religion? on this list?) Is that good? I dunno. But ancient religions, and biology, would argue that we are only animals... This is a matter of opinion. Whats the official truth in the real world? If there is a point of making such rankings at all... Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 18:25:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Saturday, 27-Apr-96 01:25 PM From: Robert \ Internet: (jerkboy@cris.com) To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>Disagree with this one...no dragon sized stuff. Sorry. >And giant sized ? For example a giant sized ring... quite dangerous,imagine >the ring falling from the finger of the giant on the head of the PCs... Oops... sorry I mean no dragon sized magical items like dragon sized rings and wands. Giant sized things would be OK, they have the craftsmen to do it all. Dragons, I suppose, could enslave some hapless dwarf conclave and force the dwaves to make a ring for the dragon. Anything is possible I guess. have fun Joe - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Or a polymorphed dragon, if you don't think it possible for a dragon to have opposable thumbs, or create by magic/prayer. Shelby ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:39:08 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] SPHERES (was: Gods vs "Immortals") On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > > > > Subject: [Mystara] SPHERESR (was: Gods vs "Immortals") > > > > On 25 Apr 1996, Andrew McKinstry wrote: > > > > > One distinction that hasn't been addressed so far is that Immortals gain > > their > > > power from the five spheres, and have alligiences to their spheres, > while > > > gods have no such restrictions or alligences. > > > > Yes... > > What a sphere is is fairly abstract though.... > > And the point is that on Mystara..the Spheres are forces... > > This is something unique to the Mystatan Multiverse.. > > If you want to use Immortals and Gods, you have to chose.. > > Do Spheres affect the other worlds and thus also the Gods (IMHO) > > OR, should you Ignore the Spheres..? > > > > Haavard > > I don't see this as an issue. Spheres seem more like a political party to me > , or a formalization of forces that could be ignored, yet still have > influence. Similar idea: in AD&D (1st Ed anyway), if you don't profess > worship of a god, you still have to choose an alignment. Your adherence to > your alignment is "judged" by some god out there, who is of that alignment > and draws a measure of power from you even without your worship. This god is > the source of the penalties incurred by varying from the path of the > alignment. Thus, think of spheres similarly; and as a result, no conflict > between the OD&D and AD&D systems, mix and match freely. > > IMHO, > Shelby > Well, in one way i agree with you, but whatabout the spheres influence on each plane? The relationship bnetween the immortals and their sphere is like a politician and his party, i agree, but the Spheres are also forces of nature... Haavard ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #105 ***************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 28 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 106 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] This whole fluff thing Mystarans, I wrote a long, detailed post on why what happened with the fluff vote happened (i.e. the digest oversight), including why I called the vote short. But, as I neared the end of it my connection was broken by an incoming call (call waiting). Usually the mail program (pine ) just postpones the message for later use, but for some reason it did not do this this time. I lost it all. And it pissed me off to no end. And with that mood comes a lack of desire to spend another hour trying to recreate it, so here are the fine details... 1) The digest members were not considered becasue they were forgotten. The digest runs itself, without help from me. So I rarely even think about it beyond occasionally approving subscriptions. Out of sight, out of mind. 2) I don't like the idea of going back on a decision, but I feel it was one based on incomplete information. So, the vote will be reopened until next Saturday, for digest members only. Sorry for the tone; it isn't aimed at anyone, including the person who brought this error to my attention. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You just don't get it, do you? We have no choice; either we fight or we die. Because if we don't turn them back they will transform this planet into a living hell. Just like they did to Earth." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- General Zykren Qae'Tahn, _Imperium_ ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 20:08:08 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] [mystara] Dragons (was Re:Money) On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Missinato Andrea wrote: > Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > > > At 23.45 24/04/96 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: > > >Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > >> I've also problems in figuring out how a dragon can use a wand, how can he > > >> bear it ? > > > > > > Well, it might look pretty small in the dragons hands, but letting > > >the dragon use a wand shouldn't be that hard. Why would a dragon keep an > > >item he can't use? > > > > Because Dragon needs magical items (and treasure) to perform the ceremony of > > sublimation and become bigger (gain HD) and eventually immortal. This > > dangerous and painful ceremony is described in an old issue of Dragon Magazine. > ************** > > Mmm, I doubt. > The Dragon races are much older than human: when they was on beginning, > human's magic item didn't exist still. > So why them should use something created by younger races for advance? > And how Dragons was advancing before Humans' birth? > Good point... But, I assume dragons and others are able to create magical items as well.. Dragons just need sources of magic...mortal made or otherwise,,, I assume that they also could drain magical nexuses (good magic points etc..) or other things and did so before magical items became common... Magic points were probably more common in the early days when the Multiverse was young and unstable... What do you think? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 20:53:32 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money At 16.06 25/04/96 -0400, Joe Duke wrote: >StarHawk wrote: >> >> All this discussion about how to limit the amount of treasure a party gets >> from killing a dragon got me thinking. I think the easiest may to limit >> it is encumberance. How many parties can carry an entire dragon horde? >> How many parties actually carry enough bags to put the treasure in, and >> then bandits and such are going to try and rob them while they're so >> loaded with treasure they can't fight. They'll have to put down some of >> the sacks to fight, at which point a few thieves grab a bag or two and run >> off.Unfourtunately, this only works once. I actually did this to a party, next time they >went out, they bought 500 sakcs and 2 wagons with 4 draft horses. Yes they actually >took the time to haul out all the treasure they could find and (even looked into this >one and it was all good) worked out how much to put in each wagon, both spatially and by >pound. He got me on that one. Ever since (6 years ago) they have always had a "trust >fund" each contributes to to inevitably replace the wagons and horses with, as I tend to >destroy the wagons for them very frequently :) > At least you found a way to make them spend their gp :-) However some places (notably hidden dragon lairs) can't be reached with a cart because they're in high mountain or in a swamp... What do your party do in such an occasion ? BTW: did you give them extra XP for doing all this work ? I think they deserve them. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:41:30 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] Old Ones (was Re:Gods vs "Immortals") On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Robert Kaelin wrote: > > > >Just to add more fuel onto the fire... :) > > > > Great! Let me get the marshmellows. :-) > > > > I can bring the hot dogs... Enough about food :) > > I like this, to an extent. I'm not so sure that the Old Ones should be > the caretakers of individual Prime Planes, after all, that's what > Immortals/Gods seem to be for. I see the Old Ones more like the > Immortals of the multiverse, watching over the whole multiverse like > Immortals watch over the Primes. > > > I've always wanted to detail these two new worlds created by the 2 new Old > > Ones, complete with their own pantheons of Immortals but I don't even have > > the time to make that one mage's tower I've been working on. :-P I have, > > however, tentatively named one of the Hierarchs who made it to become an > > Old One Ao. (Call me petty but it gives me some small satisfaction to say > > that life in the Realms started because of some Immortal from Mystara.) :-) > > Now that's funny :) However, I don't know if I want to blame the realms > on one of the Mystaran Immortals... Well, you know what they say about sequels... Anyway I like the fact that there's something out there that the Immortals themselves cannot comprehend... They should be wise enough not to trust these beings (though i believe them to be of "well" intent, you can never be sure) The Immortals should be worried about the stuff going on that even they dont understan... > BTW: Does anyone know if one of the Hierarchs was supposed to be > Verthandi? It says in the Codex in his little blurb of a description > that he just disappeared. Is he supposed to be one of the "transcended" > Hierarchs? Could be.... Or... Something else may have happened to him He may be lost on a plane without magic, he may be trapped, or he may be occupied with work on a distant plane, seeking to come back later. Lots of adventure potential there.. Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 20:53:28 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost At 15.12 25/04/96 -0400, David "Azure" Leland wrote: >At 08:59 AM 4/25/96 +0200, Pasi Anias wrote: >>Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >> >> >>> According to Thyatian Trail Map 1 the _minimum_ cost for a teleport is >>> 500gp, but it can vary much with increasing distance (don't know why) >> >>It quite simple. The price comes from the needs of the customer, not the >>True prize of the product. For excample think, how much value would the >>customer give to a teleport which would save him 5 days of normal >>journeying. Excpecially if hes in a hurry. quite much. Then think if the >>journey was one of 25 days. the value would surely be much more. So, why >>shoulnt a mage ask more for a greater service to the customer. At least as >>long as the customer is still willing to pay. Even though the service is >>really the same (casting a spell) to the mage, its really different to the >>customer. The mages are intelligent, remember. So they surely will >>understand this as a business opportunity. >> >>using the same principles a really business oriented mage might ask >>different payments for various areas in the same distances; oh you want to >>get over that mountain? Ower some dangerous area, over pirate infested dea >>etc. What really matters is the hardness and dangers of travelling by >>other means, and the need for speed. > > There's another factor that goes beyond business sense and should be >legitimate even from the point of view of the buyer, and that is that since >the wizard needs to have gone to that place and studied it long and hard to >be able to teleport someone there will a low chance of failure, the >increased cost at longer distances accounts for the cost and danger the >wizard incurred in getting to and researching the place way back whenever. >It's the equivalent of R&D (research and development) costs that make >products more expensive than production costs alone would suggest. > This is OK, but it supposes that the buyer knows how the spell works and this is not always the case. People normally think that magic is 100% error-free... If I was a wealthy PC needing a fast way to reach a far away place, I would still be a little weary in using a teleport... better a flying carpet or a several fly potions.. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 20:22:08 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] Religion (was Re:Spell cost) On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > >The views on poverty may vary from religion to religion, and should have > >nothing to do with alignment. Poverty might be seen as a punnishment, and > >poor people will be treated as others. Wealth may be viewed as a reward > >or as a result of living a life of greed etc... > > > > What I meant was alignment should be considered, for example, a cleric who > was CG because of his order would charge more for a spell for someone that > was LN instead of CG perhaps, because of the cleric's and orders beliefs. > See what I mean. Ungh.. Alignment. I really have know idea what it means... Two peple with LN alignment can disagree, cant they? I mean totally? This i culture...I mean I hate Alignment. So lets talk about Immortals' policies... What do the Immortals think, or rather...what do their followers think? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 19:39:10 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Raise Dead (was: Spell Cost) Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > At 08.59 25/04/96 +0200, Anias Pasi wrote: > > > > >Actually as hel is the god of death and reincarnation (at least in sind) > >he truly might raise dead (for the RIGHT fee). Thanatos on other hand... > >Evil grin... > > Reincarnation is not the same as raise dead. > Hel (aka Kala in Sind) likes to reicarnate the souls of evil dead people in > the body of newborn children (especially noble ones) to spread even more > death and chaos on Mystara. > This can't be made using raise dead, because in this way the soul goes back > in its original body. Well, it's similar in that, if the character was raised, Hel would get another shot at corrupting the person. I'm sure she'd be agreeable.... > You're right, but, as you said, it depends from the culture and the beliefs > of the church. In Sind, as someone pointed out, Rishiyas won't raise you > from the dead, but probably that's not true in other countries, especially > in a magic-rich world like Mystara, for example Alphatia or Thyatis. Well, in Alphatia, Raise Dead is common place... I'm not sure about Thyatis tho, but it probably wouldn't be too unreasonable to expect it.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. From ???@??? Mon Apr 29 15:03:01 1996 X-UIDL: dc93afc360c95cd597a41949af650938 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA10871; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 06:15:16 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA18682 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 14:58:08 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 14:58:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199604281958.OAA18682@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #106 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Jeremy Morris pontificated: > > On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > > > > So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... > Titans, Fiends and other non-mortal yet non-Immortal creatures from the > Wrath of the Immortals set. Exalted are not as powerful as Initiates, > but are still more powerful than mortals. Some Immortals create Exalteds > from their favorite followers. Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. John Yu, don't know what happen to my .sig file... ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:11:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" At 04:57 PM 4/25/96 PDT, David Melik wrote: >At 02:19 AM 4/24/96 -0400, you wrote: >> If you want to use real-world definitions, it should probably be >>noted that im/mortality has nothing to do with aging, at least as it regards >>Greek myth. >> >>Mortal=Can die >>Immortal=Cannot die >>Eternal=Has always existed, will always exist >> >> Some of the Greek gods were eternal, usually more primal ones like >>Night. All of the Greek gods were immortal, and could not die, although as >>you point out, according to some accounts their immortality is dependent >>upon nectar and ambrosia and they would be mortal without them. >> The funny thing is that the D&D Immortals are not (not Immortals) >>since they all can be killed. None are eternal, since they can discountinue >>existing, but some are eternal in the sense that they always were, or at >>least there are implications of this for certain ones. >> >Those are other definitions, yes, but I think that most of the time it says >they must have nectar and ambrosia to prevent aging. I believe in one, a >mortal was granted godhood but forgot to ask for immortality so they aged. >There should be two other words, so two can refer to aging, and two to dying >of other causes. Maybe they are. Does anyone know? This would make the >game better. Hmmm... I don't think it was "immortality" that was not asked for by accident, but rather 'eternal youth.' I don't remember the Latin root, but I know that in romance languages, the morpheme MORT (in whatever form: muerte in Spanish, morte in French(?), etc.) means "dead" or "death." Hence im/mort/al/ity not/death/(adj)/(noun) means the quality of not being able to be rendered dead. The distinction between "immortal" and "eternal" I'm getting from recent lectures in my Classical Mythology and Religion course. "Eternal youth" is just something I think is a useful term. You've gotten me thinking about the ambrosia and nectar, though, because while there's reference to those things being used to make mortals into gods, and while there's the implication that the gods use that remain immortal and ageless, I never get the feeling in any Greek mythology that the gods are ever at the risk of dying through violence or old age by having their nectar or ambrosia taken away. *shrug*. Anyway, I would suggest the following definitions, take 'em, leave 'em, collect 'em, rip 'em ta shreds: immortal: unable to die or be killed (i.e. not mortal) Immortal: a D&D creature/class, as described in the gold boxed set, WotI, etc. eternal: ubiquitous through time (always was, always will be) Eternal: a rank of Immortality in D&D ageless: unaging (i.e. having eternal youth) I'm unwilling to offer a definition of a god because I think gods vary the most depending on the culture and literature. Toodles, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 16:03:21 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] SPHERESR (was: Gods vs "Immortals") Haavard Roenne Faanes writes: > > On 25 Apr 1996, Andrew McKinstry wrote: > > > One distinction that hasn't been addressed so far is that Immortals gain their > > power from the five spheres, and have alligiences to their spheres, while > > gods have no such restrictions or alligences. > > Yes... > What a sphere is is fairly abstract though.... > And the point is that on Mystara..the Spheres are forces... > This is something unique to the Mystatan Multiverse.. > If you want to use Immortals and Gods, you have to chose.. > Do Spheres affect the other worlds and thus also the Gods (IMHO) > OR, should you Ignore the Spheres..? > I don't think you have to ONLY use one OR the other... You could use both but convert them to one system for rules... i.e. convert all deities and powers you want into Immortals as appropriate or convert all Immortals you want to use to Deities and Powers... The spheres don't have to be ignored either, you could just say that they were something the gods/immortals hadn't bothered to tell mortals about... You could easily place the Powers of the Realms into appropriate spheres. ... ex: Cyric ----> Entropy Mystra ---> Energy Not much of a problem really.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 02:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Shin Chyang Yu spaketh: > Jeremy Morris pontificated: > > > > Titans, Fiends and other non-mortal yet non-Immortal creatures from the > > Wrath of the Immortals set. Exalted are not as powerful as Initiates, > > but are still more powerful than mortals. Some Immortals create Exalteds > > from their favorite followers. > > Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere > of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. It seems that sometimes the Immortals of the Sphere of Entropy will take "fiendish" forms to their liking (at least that's how I read the Codex and the Gold Box stuff). Alphaks is one of those Immortals who likes to take on a demonic form to better scare/intimidate mortals/enemies. Other fiends like the Horned Fiend/Demon or the Whispering Fiend/Demon are Exalted creatures, like Titans, but in the Sphere of Entropy only. - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "The Computer is my Friend." - Paranioa the Role Playing Game, West End Games ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 10:31:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] SPHERES (was: Gods vs "Immortals") - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > > I don't see this as an issue. Spheres seem more like a political party to me > > , or a formalization of forces that could be ignored, yet still have > > influence. Similar idea: in AD&D (1st Ed anyway), if you don't profess > > worship of a god, you still have to choose an alignment. Your adherence to > > your alignment is "judged" by some god out there, who is of that alignment > > and draws a measure of power from you even without your worship. This god is > > the source of the penalties incurred by varying from the path of the > > alignment. Thus, think of spheres similarly; and as a result, no conflict > > between the OD&D and AD&D systems, mix and match freely. > > > > IMHO, > > Shelby > > > Well, in one way i agree with you, but whatabout the spheres influence on each > plane? The relationship bnetween the immortals and their sphere is like a > politician and his party, i agree, but the Spheres are also forces of > nature... > > > Haavard OK, so let the spheres act like forces of nature. If you use Mystara's Immortals systems along with their "pantheons," you don't even have to mention that aspect, let alone make decisions about it or point it out to players. I don't bring up examples of the laws of physics during game sessions! They may be out there, they may have impact (pun, haha), no one needs to even pay attention. So, by the same logic, if you choose to import the whole Dieties and Demigods system into your Mystara campaign, the lack of the quantification of the influence of spheres in that system doesn't even need to give a DM pause; there or not, it hardly seems to me as if there will be any real difference to the players. And a difference that makes no difference... I believe that the origin of this topic involved problems in adapting Dieties and Demigods to use in Mystara; exclusively, or in combination with Immortals. I don't see the problem. Shelby ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Where'd It Go? Last night, Saturday, I sent something to the list on the fluff vote debacle, but I haven't seen it yet. I seem to be having problems with mail from this sight as of late. Has anyone seen this? If so, please drop me a line. Thanks. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: Robert Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:21:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money > At least you found a way to make them spend their gp :-) > However some places (notably hidden dragon lairs) can't be reached with a > cart because they're in high mountain or in a swamp... What do your party do > in such an occasion ? > BTW: did you give them extra XP for doing all this work ? I think they > deserve them. Yes I gave them the extra Xp. This particular time the cavern was inaccessible, but they took the time to haul everything out by hand. The dragons lair was in the mouth of a dead volcano (how typical) and the "dungeon" potrion ended at that place. Theyt had to haul evrything out through the entire dungoen. It took them 3 days (at a slow pace so they would not get tired) and numberous monster encounters. But they did it. I gave them extra credit for the work. :) OK have fun Joe ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 15:29:10 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gods vs "Immortals" Shin Chyang Yu writes: > > Jeremy Morris pontificated: > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > > > > > > > So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... > > Titans, Fiends and other non-mortal yet non-Immortal creatures from the > > Wrath of the Immortals set. Exalted are not as powerful as Initiates, > > but are still more powerful than mortals. Some Immortals create Exalteds > > from their favorite followers. > > Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere > of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. In the old set he was, in Wrath he's an immortal, the fiends are the sphere of entropy's equivalent of titans, usually created from highly valued followers. If they can't make immortality, their patrons turn them into fiends... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #106 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 30 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 107 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 08:48:30 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] SPHERES (was: Gods vs "Immortals") On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > I believe that the origin of this topic involved problems in adapting > Dieties and Demigods to use in Mystara; exclusively, or in combination with > Immortals. I don't see the problem. Well, I just got caught in the debate I guess. Personally I run a "pure" Mystara campaign. Hope my comments were of some interest anyway :) Haavard ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 08:41:15 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] alphaks (was: Gods vs "Immortals") On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Shin Chyang Yu writes: > > > > Jeremy Morris pontificated: > > > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... > > > Titans, Fiends and other non-mortal yet non-Immortal creatures from the > > > Wrath of the Immortals set. Exalted are not as powerful as Initiates, > > > but are still more powerful than mortals. Some Immortals create Exalteds > > > from their favorite followers. > > > > Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere > > of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. > > In the old set he was, in Wrath he's an immortal, the fiends are > the sphere of entropy's equivalent of titans, usually created from highly > valued followers. If they can't make immortality, their patrons turn them > into fiends... Fiends can rise from their exxhaulted state into becoming Immortals. Alphaks used to be a Roaring Fiend, but has quite recently become a fully ranking Immortal. (after some incident in a module, M2 or something, im not quite sure) Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 08:58:16 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] Angels (was re: Gods vs "Immortals") On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > > It seems that sometimes the Immortals of the Sphere of Entropy will take > "fiendish" forms to their liking (at least that's how I read the Codex > and the Gold Box stuff). Alphaks is one of those Immortals who likes to > take on a demonic form to better scare/intimidate mortals/enemies. Other > fiends like the Horned Fiend/Demon or the Whispering Fiend/Demon are > Exalted creatures, like Titans, but in the Sphere of Entropy only. Anyone created any exhaulted creatures from the other spheres? Angels, Valkyries. etc... Anyone volunteer to make up some statistics for these? Bsically i guess they will be Titans, but with varying abiliies, and appearence, depending on which immortal(or immortal group) they serve. Haavard ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 09:52:54 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > There's another factor that goes beyond business sense and should be > legitimate even from the point of view of the buyer, and that is that since > the wizard needs to have gone to that place and studied it long and hard to > be able to teleport someone there will a low chance of failure, the > increased cost at longer distances accounts for the cost and danger the > wizard incurred in getting to and researching the place way back whenever. > It's the equivalent of R&D (research and development) costs that make > products more expensive than production costs alone would suggest. I do have to disagree. The glantrians must surely use Teleport without error- spells. No one would use a commercial business which sold teleports with possible dead -spells in Glantri. At least, not anyone with enough money to buy these services. After all its too easy to get murdered by a 'teleport-accident' No they use the more safe one. And it also has the advantage, that the caster need not have to visit the place to teleport, as long as he knows the place somehow (ie. from a world map). Then again, what you said would be true, talking about someone selling the basic-teleports. But the point I wanted to say was that the Glantrian spells priced in the Trailmap are (IMHO) Teleports without error, and so there are no need for the caster to really have visited the place. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 13:21:11 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Old Ones (was Re:Gods vs "Immortals") At 18.41 26/04/96 +0200, Haavard Faanes wrote: >On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > >> BTW: Does anyone know if one of the Hierarchs was supposed to be >> Verthandi? It says in the Codex in his little blurb of a description >> that he just disappeared. Is he supposed to be one of the "transcended" >> Hierarchs? > >Could be.... >Or... >Something else may have happened to him >He may be lost on a plane without magic, he may be trapped, or he may be >occupied with work on a distant plane, seeking to come back later. >Lots of adventure potential there.. > Just a question: who is this "Verthandi" ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 13:21:08 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money At 17.19 26/04/96 +0200, Andrea Missinato wrote: >Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >> >> At 23.45 24/04/96 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: >> > >> > Well, it might look pretty small in the dragons hands, but letting >> >the dragon use a wand shouldn't be that hard. Why would a dragon keep an >> >item he can't use? >> >> Because Dragon needs magical items (and treasure) to perform the ceremony of >> sublimation and become bigger (gain HD) and eventually immortal. This >> dangerous and painful ceremony is described in an old issue of Dragon Magazine. > >Mmm, I doubt. >The Dragon races are much older than human: when they was on beginning, >human's magic item didn't exist still. >So why them should use something created by younger races for advance? >And how Dragons was advancing before Humans' birth? > According to Bruce Heard ("From Hatchling to Immortal Guardian", Dragon Mag. #170) adult Dragons needs to learn and perform the Ceremony of Sublimation in order to grow in size and power. The Dragon should undergo 5 cycles before beginning the Ceremony, this cycles are: 1) Hoarding of wealth 2) Quest for magic 3) Quest for power 4) Quest for knowledge 5) Feeding Let's focuse our attention on part 2: the Dragon should acquire one or more magical items, from a simple magical weapon to more arcane items. The older the Dragon, the most powerful the item searched. Through the Ceremony Dragons may gain additional HD, speaking or spellcasting abilities (Bruce Heard assumes that talking dragons aren't necessarily able to cast spells) and at least immortality. This is what Bruce Heard wrote, you're free to agree or not... anyway nowhere it states that those magical items should be human-made. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:32:25 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Old Ones (was Re:Gods vs "Immortals") On Mon, 29 Apr 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 18.41 26/04/96 +0200, Haavard Faanes wrote: > >On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > > > >> BTW: Does anyone know if one of the Hierarchs was supposed to be > >> Verthandi? It says in the Codex in his little blurb of a description > >> that he just disappeared. Is he supposed to be one of the "transcended" > >> Hierarchs? > > > >Could be.... > >Or... > >Something else may have happened to him > >He may be lost on a plane without magic, he may be trapped, or he may be > >occupied with work on a distant plane, seeking to come back later. > >Lots of adventure potential there.. > > > Just a question: who is this "Verthandi" ? An Immortal, who created many artifacts and then disappeared... Described in Wotc (codex) in the section describing the less important immortals. (Didnt have the chance to check, but i believe that was him) Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:40:46 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money On Mon, 29 Apr 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 17.19 26/04/96 +0200, Andrea Missinato wrote: > >Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >> > >> At 23.45 24/04/96 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: > > >> > > >> > Well, it might look pretty small in the dragons hands, but letting > >> >the dragon use a wand shouldn't be that hard. Why would a dragon keep an > >> >item he can't use? > >> > >> Because Dragon needs magical items (and treasure) to perform the ceremony of > >> sublimation and become bigger (gain HD) and eventually immortal. This > >> dangerous and painful ceremony is described in an old issue of Dragon > Magazine. > > > >Mmm, I doubt. > >The Dragon races are much older than human: when they was on beginning, > >human's magic item didn't exist still. > >So why them should use something created by younger races for advance? > >And how Dragons was advancing before Humans' birth? > > > According to Bruce Heard ("From Hatchling to Immortal Guardian", Dragon Mag. > #170) adult Dragons needs to learn and perform the Ceremony of Sublimation > in order to grow in size and power. The Dragon should undergo 5 cycles > before beginning the Ceremony, this cycles are: > 1) Hoarding of wealth > 2) Quest for magic > 3) Quest for power > 4) Quest for knowledge > 5) Feeding > Let's focuse our attention on part 2: the Dragon should acquire one or more > magical items, from a simple magical weapon to more arcane items. The older > the Dragon, the most powerful the item searched. > Through the Ceremony Dragons may gain additional HD, speaking or > spellcasting abilities (Bruce Heard assumes that talking dragons aren't > necessarily able to cast spells) and at least immortality. It just struck me! Maybe the dragions of old werent required to undergo this ceremony.. Maybe they have been restricted by a curse, forcing them to undergo the ceremony in order to develope.. Or maybe the ceremony is a secret discovered, allowing them to reach immortality, thus making these dragons more powerful that the firstborn dragons... Hmmm.. Another idea. The Fist Dragons were very powerful creatures. But they degenerated, for some unknown reason. In oprder to regain former glory, they stuidied magic and discvovered this ceremony... Perhaps the ceremony was established by the First Great One dragon. The first dragon to reach immortality, that is... What do you think? Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:42:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost At 09:52 AM 4/29/96 +0200, Pasi Anias wrote: >I do have to disagree. The glantrians must surely use Teleport >without error- spells. No one would use a commercial business >which sold teleports with possible dead -spells in Glantri. At >least, not anyone with enough money to buy these services. After all >its too easy to get murdered by a 'teleport-accident' I don't make that assumption in my campaign. As a matter of fact, I consider teleport-any-object (teleport-without-error in AD&D) to be harder to get because the higher the level of the spell, not only the more expensive it is, but the less likely that the wizard who can cast it is going spend his time peddling spells for gold. Wizards that can cast 7th level and higher spells often have better things to do to make money. Anyway, I don't think it's a problem, because Teleports cost less than Teleport Any Object. Assuming someone has both spells available, the choice as to which one is up to them. Some people will take chances to save money, especially if they don't have the money for the non-risk one and are in an emergency >No they use the more safe one. And it also has the advantage, that the >caster need not have to visit the place to teleport, as long as he knows >the place somehow (ie. from a world map). The advantages are clear. The disadvantages--higher price, harder to find a caster--are also clear. In my campaign, the number of wizards available who are 15+ level, know the spell Teleport Any Object, cast spells for gold on a regular basis, and have the spell memorized on any given day is very very slim. >Then again, what you said would be true, talking about someone >selling the basic-teleports. But the point I wanted to say was >that the Glantrian spells priced in the Trailmap are (IMHO) >Teleports without error, and so there are no need for the caster >to really have visited the place. Ah, the prices on the Trail Map are anyone's guess as to Teleport vs. Teleport Any Object. I don't remember the prices. I'd figure each would have a different price and which is represented on the Map I'd base just on whether I thought it was a "fair" price. Cheers, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 15:55:42 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks (was: Gods vs "Immortals") Haavard Roenne Faanes writes: > > > > > > > > > > So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... > > > > Titans, Fiends and other non-mortal yet non-Immortal creatures from the > > > > Wrath of the Immortals set. Exalted are not as powerful as Initiates, > > > > but are still more powerful than mortals. Some Immortals create Exalteds > > > > from their favorite followers. > > > > > > Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere > > > of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. > > > > In the old set he was, in Wrath he's an immortal, the fiends are > > the sphere of entropy's equivalent of titans, usually created from highly > > valued followers. If they can't make immortality, their patrons turn them > > into fiends... > > Fiends can rise from their exxhaulted state into becoming Immortals. > Alphaks used to be a Roaring Fiend, but has quite recently become a fully > ranking Immortal. (after some incident in a module, M2 or something, im > not quite sure) Again, that's in the old set, in the new set, fiends and titans can't progress any further than they already have.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 16:15 PDT Subject: [Mystara] oops, wrong mastery ver., here's right one By Thor! I stayed up too late programming my roguelike game, and in my helf-asleep state, I sent in the wrong version of my weapon mastery system! Sorry. It's an older one, less proofread and less realistic. Here's the latest one, which has some important differences. Also, I saw that my .wri file I posted looked weird, so in case you don't know how to change it to a usable form, here's the .txt version in an attached message. However, the .txt version has not the larger or boldface letters for headers of different sections, and has less columns (so my chart had to be abbreviated), so may be a little confusing. If you have any questions because of this, just ask me. Also, lets discuss it a lot if you feel like it. Hopefully the .txt file will be readable. If not, mail me at darwin@gp.magick.net so I can try something else. David Melik "Never! Never will I turn to the dark side! You have failed, Palpatine. I am a Jedi, as my father was before me." ------------------------------ From: paoloa@ing.unico.it (Paolo Avogadro) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:47:44 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money&Dragons Hi What do you think abaut dragon breath? Once I was running an adventure with a dragon( a huge dragon) and I From ???@??? Wed May 01 16:13:07 1996 X-UIDL: 89c112e7435187fca713068e40c6899d Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA18333; Wed, 1 May 1996 15:18:20 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA06028 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 23:55:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 23:55:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199605010455.XAA06028@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #107 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk wanted to use all its power. Unfortunately PCs are very smart . A pc was an high level wizard ( abaut 20th level) and he knew that there was huge dragon in a cave near him. He used two spells: Statue ( I don't remember the right translation) Anti-magic field( " ) The first one protected him by phisical attacks,while the second one by spells, and he could change into human form just to cast spells to the dragon. I stated that dragon breath could harm him because it isn't a phisical weapon nor a spell. I consider it a natural power not a magic. Imagine a beholder fighting a dragon , the anti-magic ray would cancel the dragon breath!!! Also many novels state that the dragon breath is much more hot than lava!! The night shadows agree with me; in the description of this kind of monsters you can find that they are immune to fire and many spells but they are somewhat harmed (half damage) by dragon breath. What abaut your dragons? Paolo Avogadro paoloa@ing.unico.it ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 15:55 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Angels (was re: Gods vs "Immortals") At 08:58 AM 4/29/96 +0200, you wrote: >On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: >> >> It seems that sometimes the Immortals of the Sphere of Entropy will take >> "fiendish" forms to their liking (at least that's how I read the Codex >> and the Gold Box stuff). Alphaks is one of those Immortals who likes to >> take on a demonic form to better scare/intimidate mortals/enemies. Other >> fiends like the Horned Fiend/Demon or the Whispering Fiend/Demon are >> Exalted creatures, like Titans, but in the Sphere of Entropy only. > >Anyone created any exhaulted creatures from the other spheres? >Angels, Valkyries. etc... >Anyone volunteer to make up some statistics for these? Bsically i guess >they will be Titans, but with varying abiliies, and appearence, depending >on which immortal(or immortal group) they serve. > >Haavard > > Well, you could use the 1st ed (and maybe 2nd ed) AD&D devas, solars, and planetars for angels. I am planning to do some research on angels and make stats for them, nad there's not just seraphim and cherubim (if you want to use earth ones even) there's archangels, thrones of the eternal aspect, angelic jubilation, and other weird ones (see the Divine Comedy by Dante for those) which total nine different ones. They would make a nice opposition to the demons from the sphere of entropy. Has anyone ever heard of the sphere of life by any chance? I was wondering if it was a sphere that disappeared, or what. I seriously doubt that a valkyrie would be as powerful as a titan though. David M. ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 20:43:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Angels (was re: Gods vs "Immortals") At 03:55 PM 4/30/96 PDT, David M. wrote: >At 08:58 AM 4/29/96 +0200, Haavard wrote: >>Anyone created any exhaulted creatures from the other spheres? >>Angels, Valkyries. etc... >>Anyone volunteer to make up some statistics for these? Bsically i guess >>they will be Titans, but with varying abiliies, and appearence, depending >>on which immortal(or immortal group) they serve. >Well, you could use the 1st ed (and maybe 2nd ed) AD&D devas, solars, and >planetars for angels. I am planning to do some research on angels and make >stats for them, nad there's not just seraphim and cherubim (if you want to >use earth ones even) there's archangels, thrones of the eternal aspect, >angelic jubilation, and other weird ones (see the Divine Comedy by Dante for >those) which total nine different ones. They would make a nice opposition >to the demons from the sphere of entropy. Has anyone ever heard of the >sphere of life by any chance? I was wondering if it was a sphere that >disappeared, or what. I seriously doubt that a valkyrie would be as >powerful as a titan though. I think the idea of "common" (relatively speaking) forms for exalted creatures of each of the non-Entropy spheres other than just all Titans is a way cool idea. I also think it would be neat to borrow from the AD&D1 classification of Demons, Daemons, and Devils and make more Exalted forms for Entropy. All of the "Fiends" are chaotic, and correspond to Demons, and I think it would be neat to have neutral daemons and lawful devils too. If you really wanted to go overboard, you could have forms for each sphere AND each alignment within the spheres. As far as the Sphere of Life is concerned, that comes from PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk, where it is claimed that there is this cosmic cycle where there are four Entropy spheres that are somehow divided and just one Sphere of Life for half of the time, and four Life spheres (Matter, Energy, Time, Thought) and one Entropy sphere the other half of the time. All D&D modules and supplements are set in a 4:1 Life:Entropy age. Personally, I really despise this idea and IMC it just ain't so. I don't like the idea of faeries all being former Immortals who sinned and bla bla...I like them more homey and semi-representative of natural and magical forces, more "down to earth" shall we say. I also don't think there should be such a big gap between Matter, Energy, Time, and Thought on one hand, and Entropy on the other. Rather than the former four being the good guys and the latter the bad guys, I prefer to think of them all being composed of good and evil, and that not all Entropy is evil. After all, Entropy is necessary and does a lot of good things too. But, that's another soapbox :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 20:31 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks (was: Gods vs "Immortals") At 08:41 AM 4/29/96 +0200, you wrote: >On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > >> Shin Chyang Yu writes: >> > >> > Jeremy Morris pontificated: >> > > >> > > On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > > So, where are exalted creatures? Just wondering... >> > > Titans, Fiends and other non-mortal yet non-Immortal creatures from the >> > > Wrath of the Immortals set. Exalted are not as powerful as Initiates, >> > > but are still more powerful than mortals. Some Immortals create Exalteds >> > > from their favorite followers. >> > >> > Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere >> > of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. >> >> In the old set he was, in Wrath he's an immortal, the fiends are >> the sphere of entropy's equivalent of titans, usually created from highly >> valued followers. If they can't make immortality, their patrons turn them >> into fiends... > >Fiends can rise from their exxhaulted state into becoming Immortals. >Alphaks used to be a Roaring Fiend, but has quite recently become a fully >ranking Immortal. (after some incident in a module, M2 or something, im >not quite sure) > >Haavard Faanes > > > So what was this about Alphaks previously being a demon? I have M2 but I didn't notice. Maybe I haven't seen it for a while. I think it depends upon what happens in the module, if this is so. Where did you hear about that? Hmmm, I wonder if other demons did this too, like Orcus and Demogorgon perhaps... David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 20:32 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] oops, wrong mastery ver., here's right one - --=====================_830918133==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I didnt get any attachment.... >coul|d you help me out? > >Haavard Faanes > > > Neither did I, my stupid email program must not have attached it. I'm getting so pissed at it! I tried to send this thrice, but it hasn't worked right yet. I am now attempting to send it again, and if it doesn't work, let me know. By the way, I have Eudora Light 1.5.2, so if anyone knows about how to solve the problems with it, please tell me so I can post this thing to the list. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net "May you cleave the bytes of one-thousand email programs with your fabled axe in this battle!" - Bob Whoever - --=====================_830918133==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="WEAPMAST.TXT" Weapon Mastery Learning Weapon Proficiencies initial slots class initial additional per levels cleric 2 1/4 mage 1 1/5 rogue 3 1/3 warrior 4 1/2 time needed A student of weapon mastery needs a certain amount of time to train sufficiently in a weapon, depending on certain things, calculated as follows: ((INT adj.) + (base learning time(see below)) + (number of total levels of mastery desired ^ 2)) weeks base learning times: cleric 3 mage 4 rogue 2 warrior 1 If a god or immortal is learning and their INT adj. is high, it is done a little different. An exalted or demigod or higher's base learning time is 1. Add up everything exept for the INT adj. Then, add it on, point by point until it reaches 1 week (If it even does so, and if not, you're over) . For every point of INT adj. left, it decreases the time 1 day. Under no circumstances can this be decreased to less than 1 day, unless it is from an action of an Old One ( which is very unlikely ). chance of learning A student of weapon mastery has a certain chance of increasing his proficiency with a weapon, depending on certain things, calculated as follows: ((teacher's mastery * 10) + (teacher's INT - 10)) - ((students mastery * 10) - (student's INT - 10))% Combat Adjustments skilled weapon use bonuses The attacker gains an additional attack each round when using that weapon, and+1 to hit, +1 to damage per level of mastery unskilled weapon use penalties for weapon groups If the attacker has more than 1 attack per round, he can only make 1 with the weapon he is unskilled in. If it is in the same group as another he is skilled in, he can make half the normal number of attacks with the skilled weapon, rounded down. class same group different group cleric -3 -5 mage -4 -6 rogue -2 -4 warrior -1 -3 Combat Maneuvers when they are gained manners of weapon use f = firing s = swinging thro = throwing thru = thrusting general effects of weapon use cr = crushing cu = cutting e = entangling |charge |deflect|disarm |fall |impale |knock |stun throw | f, cr | -- | -- | 2 | 3 | -- | 1 | 4 | 5 | f, cu | -- | -- | 2 | 3 | 1 | -- | 4 | 5 | f, e | -- | -- | 2 | 1 | -- | -- | 3 | 4 | s, cr | 5 | 2 | 3 | 4 | -- | 1 | 6 | 7 | s, cu | 5 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 7 | s, e | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -- | -- | 5 | 6 | thro, cr| 6 | -- | 2 | 3 | -- | 1 | 4 | 1 | thro, cu| 6 | -- | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 1 | thro, e | -- | -- | 2 | 1 | -- | -- | 4 | 1 | thru, cr| -- | 3 | 2 | 4 | -- | 1 | 5 | 6 | thru, cu| -- | 3 | 2 | 4 | 1 | -- | 5 | 6 | thru, e | 1 | 2 | 4 | 3 | -- | -- | 5 | 6 | descriptions charge The attacker must run for 20 yards, and make an attack roll. If he hits, double damage is inflicted. If the victim hits the attacker in the same round, the attacker takes double damage. critical hit - attacker also fells victim deflect The attacker must make a called shot attack roll to the victim's weapon, with a penalty of 3 if the weapon is small, 2 if medium, and 1 if large. If he hits, the victim must make a STR check with a penalty of the attacker's mastery. If this fails, the blow is deflected. critical hit - chance of weapon breakage critical STR failure - attacker also disarms the victim critical STR success - attacker is disarmed disarm The attacker must make a called shot attack roll to the victim's hand and weapon, with a penalty of 3 if the weapon is small, 2 if medium, and 1 if large. If he hits, the victim must make a STR check with a penalty of the attacker's mastery. If this fails, he must make a DEX check with the same penalty, or drop the weapon about 1D(attacker's mastery) + STR adj. ft. away. critical hit - victim is literally disarmed (well dishanded actually, percent of hand dismembered is percent of potential damage inflicted) critical STR failure - weapon goes maximum distance. critical DEX failure - weapon double distance. critical STR success - attacker is disarmed (if applicable) critical DEX success - victim gains an extra attack fall The attacker must make a called shot attack roll to the victim's lower legs, with a penalty depending on the sizes of the combatants, as follows: victim's size attacker's size S M L S 4 3 2 M 5 4 3 L 6 5 4 If the attacker hits, the victim must make a DEX check with a penalty of the attacker's mastery or fall. If he falls, he takes double damage. A critical entangle causes a fall. critical hit - victim must make a CON check each round to rise, with a cumulative bonus of 1 after the first critical DEX failure - considered a critical hit. critical DEX success - chance of weapon breakage impale The attacker must make an attack roll of 20 or higher, which is not required to be natural. If he hits, maximum damage is inflicted, and the weapon is stuck in the victim. Anyone may pull it out by making a STR check, and the vicitm must make a CON check. The victim takes the removal damage points of damage if the weapon is removed.A critical cut causes an impale. critical hit - see critical hit table, no CON check, system shock rolled immediately critical STR failure - victim takes half damage and but weapon is not removed. critical STR success - victim takes maximum damage as weapon is ripped out critical CON failure - victim must make system shock roll or die critical CON success - victim takes half damage from removal knock The attacker must simply make an attack roll, and if he hits, the victim must make a STR check with an adjustment of the attacker's damage adjustment, or be knocked back 1D(attacker's mastery) + STR adj. ft.. The victim must make a DEX check. If he succeds, he goes half distance. A critical crush or swing causes a knock. critical hit - see critical hit table, distance is doubled critical STR failure - attacker has also felled victim critical STR success - victim goes half distance critical DEX success - victim goes quarter distance critical DEX failure - victim goes double distance stun The attacker must make a called shot to the head or torso, with a penalty depending on the sizes of the combatants, as follows: victim's size attacker's size S M L S 3 4 5 M 2 3 4 L 1 2 3 If he hits, the victim must make a CON check with a penalty of the attacker's mastery + STR adj., or be stunned. critical hit - victim is knocked out, must make a CON check, if critically failed, must make system shock roll or die critical CON failure - victim is knocked out, must make another CON check, if failed, must make system shock roll or die critical CON success - no effect throw The attacker may throw his weapon a certain distance, depending on the weapon and his mastery. He must simply make an attack roll, and if he hits, normal damage is taken. critical hit - see critical hit table - --=====================_830918133==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" - --=====================_830918133==_-- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #107 *****************************