mystara-digest Thursday, 2 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 108 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 00:57:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks (was: Gods vs "Immortals") >>> > Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere >>> > of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. >>> >>> In the old set he was, in Wrath he's an immortal, the fiends are >>> the sphere of entropy's equivalent of titans, usually created from highly >>> valued followers. If they can't make immortality, their patrons turn them >>> into fiends... >> >>Fiends can rise from their exxhaulted state into becoming Immortals. >>Alphaks used to be a Roaring Fiend, but has quite recently become a fully >>ranking Immortal. (after some incident in a module, M2 or something, im >>not quite sure) >> >So what was this about Alphaks previously being a demon? I have M2 but I >didn't notice. Maybe I haven't seen it for a while. I think it depends upon >what happens in the module, if this is so. Where did you hear about that? >Hmmm, I wonder if other demons did this too, like Orcus and Demogorgon >perhaps... I have the module, and as far as I can tell he is Immortal at the start. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 13:28:27 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Angels (was re: Gods vs "Immortals") On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, David Melik wrote: > >Anyone created any exhaulted creatures from the other spheres? > >Angels, Valkyries. etc... > >Anyone volunteer to make up some statistics for these? Bsically i guess > >they will be Titans, but with varying abiliies, and appearence, depending > >on which immortal(or immortal group) they serve. > >Haavard > Well, you could use the 1st ed (and maybe 2nd ed) AD&D devas, solars, and > planetars for angels. I am planning to do some research on angels and make > stats for them, nad there's not just seraphim and cherubim (if you want to > use earth ones even) there's archangels, thrones of the eternal aspect, > angelic jubilation, and other weird ones (see the Divine Comedy by Dante for > those) which total nine different ones. They would make a nice opposition > to the demons from the sphere of entropy. Has anyone ever heard of the > sphere of life by any chance? I was wondering if it was a sphere that > disappeared, or what. I seriously doubt that a valkyrie would be as > powerful as a titan though. Im intrigued. Ive read stuff about angels, but it all becomes quite complicated, since several angels seem to have the same names, and the various stories dont agree on all matters. If you know any more, please share it :) How would they be related to the Spheres, by the way? Valkyries, would be the servants on the norse pantheon, mainly of Odin. Maybe not as powerful as titans, at least not measuring stats and hit dice, but still exhaulted creatures, and I sure wouldn't want to mess with them. But I guess thats why I'm a roleplayer, rather than an adventurer. Haavard ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 1 May 96 16:55:18 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks David Melik writes: > >> > Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere > >> > of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. > >> > >> In the old set he was, in Wrath he's an immortal, the fiends are > >> the sphere of entropy's equivalent of titans, usually created from highly > >> valued followers. If they can't make immortality, their patrons turn them > >> into fiends... > > > >Fiends can rise from their exxhaulted state into becoming Immortals. > >Alphaks used to be a Roaring Fiend, but has quite recently become a fully > >ranking Immortal. (after some incident in a module, M2 or something, im > >not quite sure) > So what was this about Alphaks previously being a demon? I have M2 but I > didn't notice. Maybe I haven't seen it for a while. I think it depends upon > what happens in the module, if this is so. Where did you hear about that? > Hmmm, I wonder if other demons did this too, like Orcus and Demogorgon > perhaps... Actually Alphaks use to be a human of Alphatian descent. He was the one who started the war on the Alphatia homeworld which eventualy split the Alphatians and Glantrians. See pg. 97 of the Hollow World Dungeon Master's Sourcebook: "Once upon a time and a universe away, Alphaks I was a mortal, the ruler of the old Alphatian kingdom" or pg 14 of the Codex "Alphaks was the mortal ruler of a kingdom called Alphatia on a faraway world in another plane of existence" Alphaks isn't even mentioned in IM2, but i think it's safe to say that he was never a fiend.... One of the names he is know by is THE Roaring Demon, but all immortals have many names like Solarios ( Ixion ), and Father Time ( Khoronus )... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 21:22:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks At 04:55 PM 5/1/96 EDT, you wrote: >David Melik writes: > >> >> > Aren't Fiends/Demons actually common forms of immortal from sphere >> >> > of Entropy? For example, Alphak is a roaring demon. >> >> >> >> In the old set he was, in Wrath he's an immortal, the fiends are >> >> the sphere of entropy's equivalent of titans, usually created from highly >> >> valued followers. If they can't make immortality, their patrons turn them >> >> into fiends... >> > >> >Fiends can rise from their exxhaulted state into becoming Immortals. >> >Alphaks used to be a Roaring Fiend, but has quite recently become a fully >> >ranking Immortal. (after some incident in a module, M2 or something, im >> >not quite sure) > >> So what was this about Alphaks previously being a demon? I have M2 but I >> didn't notice. Maybe I haven't seen it for a while. I think it depends upon >> what happens in the module, if this is so. Where did you hear about that? >> Hmmm, I wonder if other demons did this too, like Orcus and Demogorgon >> perhaps... > > Actually Alphaks use to be a human of Alphatian descent. He was >the one who started the war on the Alphatia homeworld which eventualy >split the Alphatians and Glantrians I don't think it's fair to say he STARTED the war. Rather, there was a war brewing and the essay contest was meant to defuse it, but by deciding in favor of the fire wizards, of which he was one, it erupted after all. I'm not so sure war wouldn't have happened either way... See pg. 97 of the Hollow World >Dungeon Master's Sourcebook: "Once upon a time and a universe away, >Alphaks I was a mortal, the ruler of the old Alphatian kingdom" >or pg 14 of the Codex "Alphaks was the mortal ruler of a kingdom called >Alphatia on a faraway world in another plane of existence" >Alphaks isn't even mentioned in IM2, but i think it's safe to say that he >was never a fiend.... One of the names he is know by is THE Roaring Demon, >but all immortals have many names like Solarios ( Ixion ), and Father Time >( Khoronus )... The person mentioned M2, not IM2, but now that you mention it, I was wrong when I said he's described explicity in M2. It's M1 Into the Maelstrom that I was thinking of, and in that it is made quite clear that he is an Immortal, not an Exalted being. I don't think he was intended to ever have been a fiend, but I don't suppose there's anything wrong with thinking that beings in search of Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy can reach a stage half-way along the way where they get the form of a fiend. Just a possibility... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 00:08:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Angels (was re: Gods vs "Immortals") On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > As far as the Sphere of Life is concerned, that comes from PC1 Tall > Tales of the Wee Folk, where it is claimed that there is this cosmic cycle > where there are four Entropy spheres that are somehow divided and just one > Sphere of Life for half of the time, and four Life spheres (Matter, Energy, > Time, Thought) and one Entropy sphere the other half of the time. All D&D > modules and supplements are set in a 4:1 Life:Entropy age. Personally, I > really despise this idea and IMC it just ain't so. I don't like the idea of > faeries all being former Immortals who sinned and bla bla...I like them more I agree that that part of Tall Tales doesn't quite fit, and I saw it more like the faeries PR making them seem more important than they actually are. The whole story just felt wrong, IMHO, and in my campaigns I've always pretty much ignored it. BTW: I've heard that story in another form before, except it was about the fae of our own European legends. According to one source that I read (and I don't remember what it was since it was so long ago, but it was definitely before the Tall Tales came out) the faries were supposed to be angels who didn't take sides during the War in Heaven. Those who sided with Lucifer went to Hell, those who sided with God stayed in Heaven and those who stayed on the fence and took no sides were condemned to Earth, to live there until Judgement Day. I'm not sure how serious the story was supposed to be (especially since I don't remember the source), but I think that it was some Irish legends book that I read it in. When I read the story in Tall Tales, I instantly remembered the story and drew immediate parallels. > other. Rather than the former four being the good guys and the latter the > bad guys, I prefer to think of them all being composed of good and evil, and > that not all Entropy is evil. After all, Entropy is necessary and does a > lot of good things too. But, that's another soapbox :) I agree. The Entropy=Evil everyone else = Good approach is and has been too simple for my tastes. I like the fact that Nyx was written up in the Codex as not evil, just wanting to move the Universe into a state that was detrimental to life as we know it. However the Sphere of Entropy on Mystara is pretty much equivalent to the Sphere of Destruction as far as most of its members are concerned. Since most seem to be more concerned with destroying and corrupting what they can, they ususally end up more inclined to evil than most (at least, IMHO). ******* WARNING -- ALIGNMENT PONDERINGS APPROACHING ********* I would suppose that using the AD&D two-pronged moral/ethical approach to alignment, I would put Nyx at Chaotic Neutral, while most of the other Entropics would lay in the Evil spectrum (Azanteotl - Lawful Evil, Hel - Neutral Evil, Alphaks - Chaotic Evil). I can't think of any members of the other Spheres that would be inclined towards the Evil end of the spectrum off of the top of my head, but as I recall most of them were clearly on the Good or Neutral sides. Actualy, though, that's the way that most of the world of Mystara is portrayed. Just when you think you've found a truly "Evil" group, you find out that their side of the story is usually just as justifiable as the other side (c.f. The Humanoids of the Broken Lands and the Shadow Elves). That's one of the things I like about Mystara and always have, nothing is ever as simple as it might seem on first glance. - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Stay alert, trust no one, keep your laser handy." - - Paranoia the Role Playing Game, West End Games ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:29:09 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money&Dragons Paolo Avogadro wrote: > Hi > What do you think abaut dragon breath? > I stated that dragon breath could harm him because it isn't a phisical > weapon nor a spell. I consider it a natural power not a magic. > Imagine a beholder fighting a dragon , the anti-magic ray would cancel > the dragon breath!!! Actually, I think there happened something like that in TSR's novel Elminster. Though I think it is ridiculous. Also in Spellfire (the novel) Shandril is not harmed by dragonfire because of the magical nature of the fire, mut of course there the breather is a dracolich, so it is a bit different thing. > Also many novels state that the dragon breath is much more hot than lava!! From ???@??? Fri May 03 11:08:41 1996 X-UIDL: 84ab157a6aa90149d749383b1c016970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA10140; Fri, 3 May 1996 03:30:43 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA17413 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 11:58:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:58:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199605021658.LAA17413@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #108 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk > The night shadows agree with me; in the description of this kind of monsters > you can find that they are immune to fire and many spells but they are > somewhat harmed (half damage) by dragon breath. > What abaut your dragons? Well... you asked. I do agree with you. Dragonfire is not a magical attac. The formation of Dragonfire may or may not have something to do with Dragonmagic, but the fire itself is fysical. And About the statue. Dragonfire (at leas breathed by a bigger dragon) is hot enough to damage roc, even melt it. If I remember right the statue spell is not ment to protect the mage from everything, only things that wouldnt harm wery solid stone. As most dragons can melt roc when they really want to, they surely can harm the spellbound wizard too. Though I might give the wizard some help by ruling that the dragon must came at least to half range of the fire (not much help :) and maybe give him a save against melting (dragonbreath) with maby some negative bonuses if the dragon is big (no halfdamage, if the stone starts to melt, it melts). Suppose the wizard would survive (fat chance)... it would be nice to see what happens when he would change back... after half of him has melted... I dont think other breath-weapons would be so good against statue though. Acid might have some effect if given a longer time to work... And a story of a game of mine: (some campaing as allways before) The gang were in Catrins barony and going to check a strange traveler in an inn. Wizard Extremus (also dubbed The Evil for srange reasons) decided to wait in the garden belowe the windows in the shadows of some bushes. With a caution apropriate to a Glantrian mage (a witch) he decided to change to statue as he was waiting (one of his favourite spells), taking a good pose, should someone see him. Well in a minute he got some company. A nice young couple (about 15-17 years) decided to use the bushes for some romancing... First they were startled by the new statue, excpecially as it was not a wery handsome one (charisma 3), but then young love made them forget it. After a few seconds of huggings an kissings the boy decided to impress the girl. They went to the backside of the witch, and suddenly the mage felt some itching in his back. That was enough. He changes back to flesh and turned around allmost giving the pair a hart-attac before they flee, never to be encourtered again. As the witch studied himself he found the beginings of a hart with two letters in the back of his robe. The teaching of the story: watch your back. By the way, do you think there is a other pair in Mystara who have carved their markings to the back of a arch-mage. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: paoloa@ing.unico.it (Paolo Avogadro) Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 10:06:19 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money&Dragons Hi I tried to calculate the maximum value of a treasure (D&D), An H treasure could give you about 68000000 gp!!! You understood right 66 MILLIONS of GP!!!! If you are lucky enough you can find 100 gems , I calculated to find diamonds, the biggest and best diamonds (64 times their normal value for a total of 640000 gp a gem! In fact you could also find tristals, but I think you must consider them pure and big gems, so the max value for a trisal is 100000, not 6400000 gp. Dragons are very rich beings, imagine a huge dragon with an Hx3 trasure of that kind . You could find a queue of adventurers at his lair.. Paolo Avogadro paoloa@ing.unico.it ------------------------------ From: paoloa@ing.unico.it (Paolo Avogadro) Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 10:33:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara]mastery Hi In my campaign there's an additional rule. I think that only few people can attain a great master level, but with the normal rules everybody with time and experience can become a great master. I stated that if a person tried to improve his skill but failed couldn't improve his skill in that weapon any more. In an older campaign my PCs (24th level) decided they wanted to became great masters , one of them was a cleric an had the wish spell. He teleported the nearest master to the party's castle , covered him with his gold and said: "We want to became great masters" All the poetry of great fighting ability, earned only by special characters disappeared. Paolo Avogadro paoloa@ing.unico.it ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:14:32 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks On Wed, 1 May 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > > The person mentioned M2, not IM2, but now that you mention it, I was > wrong when I said he's described explicity in M2. It's M1 Into the > Maelstrom that I was thinking of, and in that it is made quite clear that he > is an Immortal, not an Exalted being. I don't think he was intended to ever > have been a fiend, but I don't suppose there's anything wrong with thinking > that beings in search of Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy can reach a > stage half-way along the way where they get the form of a fiend. Just a > possibility... Hmmm, now I cant find my copy of M2 so I cant check, but I might have been wrong. Anyway several of the Entrophy Immortals were changed from demons, with the coming of the Hollowworld setting i think. Check out "shadowelves" and "Orcs of Thar" gazs. ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:37:37 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Alignment (was: Angels) On Thu, 2 May 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > I agree. The Entropy=Evil everyone else = Good approach is and has been > too simple for my tastes. I like the fact that Nyx was written up in the > Codex as not evil, just wanting to move the Universe into a state that > was detrimental to life as we know it. > > However the Sphere of Entropy on Mystara is pretty much equivalent to the > Sphere of Destruction as far as most of its members are concerned. Since > most seem to be more concerned with destroying and corrupting what they > can, they ususally end up more inclined to evil than most (at least, IMHO). > > ******* WARNING -- ALIGNMENT PONDERINGS APPROACHING ********* [snipped away!] The Sphere of Entrophy is a natural force/element. Not evil or good, but a natural part of the universe. The immortals of the other spheres realize this, and therefore, recognize the significance of the balance between the spheres (not a krynnish balance between good and evil) However most followers of entrophy are evil and thus the sphere itself seems evil (note that entrophy and destruction is much of the same, but who said destruction was evil?) The speculations on the alignments. I would say both Nyx and Hel are True Neutral. The actions of Hel during the war made her seem more evil though, but I have always perceived her as Death itself, grim, but not evil...) But your interpretations of alignments may also be totally different from mine.... Haavard ------------------------------ From: Sven Munther Date: Thu, 02 May 96 16:25:00 MET Subject: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment On May 2 1996, Haavard wrote: >I agree. The Entropy=Evil everyone else = Good approach is and has been >too simple for my tastes. Agree I done it quite simply like this when I started to use the gazetteers for AD&D 8-10 years ago: Entropy Evil (NE) Evil Cleric Matter Time Energy Law (LN) Neutral (NN) Chaotic (CN) Fighter Thief/Druid Wizard Thought Good (NG) Good Cleric I think there was some problems with Time/Thought, but I played this way for so long, that I do not remember the details. The last four AD&D alignments : LG, LE, CG, and CE is regarded as un-pure with less immortal respect ("You cannot make up your mind, can you") and no clear path to immortality. A weakens of the system is that it is unfair against clerics of lawful or chaotic immortals - so what? That is the rules of the universe and the same thing could be said about a chaotic and/or evil fighter. For me the system was so obvious, that I was somewhat surprised not to see something like it in the final AD&D adaption of Mystara. What do you guys think? Sven ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks On Thu, 2 May 1996, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Hmmm, now I cant find my copy of M2 so I cant check, but I might have > been wrong. > Anyway several of the Entrophy Immortals were changed from demons, with > the coming of the Hollowworld setting i think. Check out "shadowelves" > and "Orcs of Thar" gazs. My copy is at home, and I forgot (once again) to check last night, but I think that the confusion is coming from an inconsistancy in the way that the OD&D designers used the term "demon". As I recall, in the Gold Box set Demons were described as "lesser Immortals of the Sphere of Entropy", with demons like Orcus and Demogorgon being more powerful Entropics. As time passed, though, demons became more like their AD&D counterparts, so that by the time of the Wrath of the Immortals set we had the Lesser Fiends (Demons) who are Exalted beings and are not to be confused with Greater Fiends (Demons) who are true Immortals. As another aside (and a way to add to confusion), Alphaks is called "The Roaring Fiend" in his write-up in Wrath. However there is a Lesser Fiend known as a Roaring Fiend too, with stats pulled from the module "Into the Maelstrom" (which I believe is M1 although it might be M2). - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Alex Trebek, the game show host?" - - from a recent episode of X-Files, don't ask, its too much to explain ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Alignment (was: Angels) On Thu, 2 May 1996, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > > > I agree. The Entropy=Evil everyone else = Good approach is and has been > > too simple for my tastes. I like the fact that Nyx was written up in the > > Codex as not evil, just wanting to move the Universe into a state that > > was detrimental to life as we know it. > > > > However the Sphere of Entropy on Mystara is pretty much equivalent to the > > Sphere of Destruction as far as most of its members are concerned. Since > > most seem to be more concerned with destroying and corrupting what they > > can, they ususally end up more inclined to evil than most (at least, IMHO). > > > > ******* WARNING -- ALIGNMENT PONDERINGS APPROACHING ********* > > [snipped away!] > > The Sphere of Entrophy is a natural force/element. Not evil or good, but > a natural part of the universe. The immortals of the other spheres > realize this, and therefore, recognize the significance of the balance > between the spheres (not a krynnish balance between good and evil) > However most followers of entrophy are evil and thus the sphere > itself seems evil > (note that entrophy and destruction is much of the same, but who said > destruction was evil?) Agreed, destruction by itself is not necessarily evil. Sometimes new things cannot be created without destroying old things. However, since taking pleasure in destruction and corruption without the intent of creating something new in its place is usually seen as being a "evil" thing, I suspect that most of the members of the Entropic Sphere are probably more inclined to evil than most other Spheres [1]. > > The speculations on the alignments. > I would say both Nyx and Hel are True Neutral. The actions of Hel during > the war made her seem more evil though, but I have always perceived her > as Death itself, grim, but not evil...) > But your interpretations of alignments may also be totally different from > mine.... Actually, by the write-ups and descriptions I've seen about Hel (i.e. Hollow World, Orcs of Thar, and especially the Codex) she has always been portrayed as wanting to "increase pain and suffering" in the world. In fact, that was the reason that she started reincarnating evil souls. With that in mind, I would place her more in the Neutral Evil catagory -- She recognizes a need for balance among the Spheres, but isn't above promoting Evil in the universe. Nyx, on the other hand, simply wants her chosen people (the undead) to be the most powerful in the world. There really isn't any difference between that and say Rad wanting the Glantrians to be the most powerful group of people. I couldn't decide if she should be Chaotic or True Neutral, though, and I put her at Chaotic because she wants to upset the current order. Thinking about it more, its still a pretty close draw for me whether she should be Chaotic or True Neutral. Ah well, food for thought anyway :) - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Linux -- the choice of the GNU generation." - seen in a .sig on Usenet ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #108 mystara-digest Thursday, 2 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 109 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Morris Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 14:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment On Thu, 2 May 1996, Sven Munther wrote: > On May 2 1996, Haavard wrote: > >I agree. The Entropy=Evil everyone else = Good approach is and has been > >too simple for my tastes. > > Agree > > I done it quite simply like this when I started to use the gazetteers > for AD&D 8-10 years ago: > > Entropy > Evil (NE) > Evil Cleric > > Matter Time Energy > Law (LN) Neutral (NN) Chaotic (CN) > Fighter Thief/Druid Wizard > > Thought > Good (NG) > Good Cleric I've put some thought into this too, and I see it similarly, but with a few differences. Instead of restricting the Spheres to just the Neutral alignments, I've been thinking about allowing Sphere's alignments to "bleed" into other Spheres. For example, Matter could cover Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil. Energy would be Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil, etc. I don't think that this alignment should be restrictive, just a generalization, and members of a particular Sphere probably shouldn't move into an opposed alignment without changing Spheres (i.e. an Entropic could be a Neutral alignment (Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, etc.) but couln't be a Good alignment. This puts the Sphere of Time in the position to be any alignment, and also allows members of other Spheres to be evil as well (except for Thought, which is the only snag I have right now. I can see how Entropics can't be Good, but how can Thought not be Evil :( And, personally, I think the "class tendencies" are a mistake for the Spheres. I think that the designers went a little overboard with the whole 4 thing when they were making the boxed set, and so in my campaign I've done away with them (for the most part). Sure its easier for a mage to become a member of the Sphere of Energy or a Fighter to become a member of the Sphere of Thought (how ironic), but that's because of the way the members of the Sphere have outlined the entrance requirements, not because of anything specially attuned to the Sphere itself (at least in my campaign). (Incidentally, the whole reason I've been thinking about this is because I've been wanting to migrate the Planescape setting into a Mystara campaign, and I've been wondering which Planes would be Immortal's Home Planes.) - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "It's like beating a nail with a fish." - - Andy Staats, co-worker, just being himself ------------------------------ From: StarHawk Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 15:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Angels (was re: Gods vs "Immortals") On Thu, 2 May 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > ******* WARNING -- ALIGNMENT PONDERINGS APPROACHING ********* > > I would suppose that using the AD&D two-pronged moral/ethical approach to > alignment, I would put Nyx at Chaotic Neutral, while most of the other > Entropics would lay in the Evil spectrum (Azanteotl - Lawful Evil, Hel - > Neutral Evil, Alphaks - Chaotic Evil). I can't think of any members of > the other Spheres that would be inclined towards the Evil end of the > spectrum off of the top of my head, but as I recall most of them were > clearly on the Good or Neutral sides. Actualy, though, that's the way Umm, Thanatos. The End of All Life is a pretty evil goal. Waking up in the morning and going "Gee, what should I do... Kill everyone sounds good." IMO qualifies you as evil. I'd definately put him at Lawful Evil, its a very organized destruction of all life, but still evil. Otherwise I'd have to say: Alphaks CE Atzanteotl LE Bagni Gullymaw ?? (He's trying to improve the Trolls, not exactly evil) Hel NE Jamudaru CE (Nightmares, incarnation of pure hatred) Loki CN Masauwu LE (Organized recruiting by trickery and betrayal) Nyx C? (Not sure. She's not evil really, but not exactly good) Orcus CE (Random mass destruction) Ranivorus CE (Hatred, Insanity, Humanoid raids) Talitha LE (Self Gratification at others expense) Thanatos LE (The End Of All Life) Yagrai ?? (Patron of Humanoids, not an evil thing or even necessarily Chaotic) > that most of the world of Mystara is portrayed. Just when you think > you've found a truly "Evil" group, you find out that their side of the > story is usually just as justifiable as the other side (c.f. The > Humanoids of the Broken Lands and the Shadow Elves). That's one of the > things I like about Mystara and always have, nothing is ever as simple as > it might seem on first glance. I always liked this too. There were no clearly defined lines of Good or Evil. ________________ |] |] |]ruce | ierpont ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:37:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment At 02:22 PM 5/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >I don't think that this alignment should be restrictive, just a >generalization, and members of a particular Sphere probably shouldn't >move into an opposed alignment without changing Spheres (i.e. an Entropic >could be a Neutral alignment (Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, etc.) but >couln't be a Good alignment. This puts the Sphere of Time in the >position to be any alignment, and also allows members of other Spheres to >be evil as well (except for Thought, which is the only snag I have right >now. I can see how Entropics can't be Good, but how can Thought not be >Evil :( Of course you can do it however you want, but normally Thought is any alignment, while Time is neutral, Matter is lawful, and Energy is chaotic. >And, personally, I think the "class tendencies" are a mistake for the >Spheres. I think that the designers went a little overboard with the >whole 4 thing when they were making the boxed set, and so in my campaign >I've done away with them (for the most part). Sure its easier for a mage >to become a member of the Sphere of Energy or a Fighter to become a >member of the Sphere of Thought (how ironic), but that's because of the >way the members of the Sphere have outlined the entrance requirements, >not because of anything specially attuned to the Sphere itself (at least >in my campaign). Similarly, I don't think there's irony with fighters, because they are favored by Matter, not Thought. Thieves are favored by Thought. Clerics are favored by Time. Wizards are favored by Energy. I wouldn't restrict classes to certain Spheres, but I do think the biases make a good amount of sense. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:47:28 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment", sent at 16:47 EDT on 02-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 16:47 EDT on 02-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:47:28 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA18538; Thu, 2 May 1996 16:47:06 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA18156 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 13:54:00 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA18078 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 13:43:59 -0500 Received: from chip.bgsu.edu (chip.bgsu.edu [129.1.3.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12579 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 13:22:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ernie.bgsu.edu (ernie.bgsu.edu [129.1.3.43]) by chip.bgsu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA07128 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 14:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ernie.bgsu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27829; Thu, 2 May 96 14:22:17 EDT Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 14:22:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Morris X-Sender: jmorris@ernie.bgsu.edu To: mystara-l@IO.COM Cc: mystara-l Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment In-Reply-To: <3188D33A@wk06.Copenhagen.NCR.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@IO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@IO.COM On Thu, 2 May 1996, Sven Munther wrote: > On May 2 1996, Haavard wrote: > >I agree. The Entropy=Evil everyone else = Good approach is and has been > >too simple for my tastes. > > Agree > > I done it quite simply like this when I started to use the gazetteers > for AD&D 8-10 years ago: > > Entropy > Evil (NE) > Evil Cleric > > Matter Time Energy > Law (LN) Neutral (NN) Chaotic (CN) > Fighter Thief/Druid Wizard > > Thought > Good (NG) > Good Cleric I've put some thought into this too, and I see it similarly, but with a few differences. Instead of restricting the Spheres to just the Neutral alignments, I've been thinking about allowing Sphere's alignments to "bleed" into other Spheres. For example, Matter could cover Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil. Energy would be Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil, etc. I don't think that this alignment should be restrictive, just a generalization, and members of a particular Sphere probably shouldn't move into an opposed alignment without changing Spheres (i.e. an Entropic could be a Neutral alignment (Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, etc.) but couln't be a Good alignment. This puts the Sphere of Time in the position to be any alignment, and also allows members of other Spheres to be evil as well (except for Thought, which is the only snag I have right now. I can see how Entropics can't be Good, but how can Thought not be Evil :( And, personally, I think the "class tendencies" are a mistake for the Spheres. I think that the designers went a little overboard with the whole 4 thing when they were making the boxed set, and so in my campaign I've done away with them (for the most part). Sure its easier for a mage to become a member of the Sphere of Energy or a Fighter to become a member of the Sphere of Thought (how ironic), but that's because of the way the members of the Sphere have outlined the entrance requirements, not because of anything specially attuned to the Sphere itself (at least in my campaign). (Incidentally, the whole reason I've been thinking about this is because I've been wanting to migrate the Planescape setting into a Mystara campaign, and I've been wondering which Planes would be Immortal's Home Planes.) - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "It's like beating a nail with a fish." - - Andy Staats, co-worker, just being himself ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 17:35:01 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Angels (was re: Gods vs "Immortals")", sent at 17:34 EDT on 02-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 17:35 EDT on 02-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 18:10:34 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment", sent at 18:10 EDT on 02-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 18:10 EDT on 02-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 2 May 96 17:35:32 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks David 'Azure' Leland writes: > >or pg 14 of the Codex "Alphaks was the mortal ruler of a kingdom called > >Alphatia on a faraway world in another plane of existence" > >Alphaks isn't even mentioned in IM2, but i think it's safe to say that he > >was never a fiend.... One of the names he is know by is THE Roaring Demon, > >but all immortals have many names like Solarios ( Ixion ), and Father Time > >( Khoronus )... > > The person mentioned M2, not IM2, but now that you mention it, I was > wrong when I said he's described explicity in M2. It's M1 Into the Oops, my mistake. > Maelstrom that I was thinking of, and in that it is made quite clear that he > is an Immortal, not an Exalted being. I don't think he was intended to ever > have been a fiend, but I don't suppose there's anything wrong with thinking > that beings in search of Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy can reach a > stage half-way along the way where they get the form of a fiend. Just a > possibility... Well, the thing is once you reach a state such as Titan or Fiend further progression becomes impossible, you're stuck in that state forever... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 17:35:01 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) From ???@??? Fri May 03 12:40:47 1996 X-UIDL: a5420076aa21fbf204c0db1ea5a5abd6 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA22811; Fri, 3 May 1996 12:14:54 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA21014 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 21:01:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:01:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199605030201.VAA21014@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #109 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk id RAA21474; Thu, 2 May 1996 17:34:42 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA18696 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 15:07:15 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA18646 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 14:54:55 -0500 Received: from menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu (menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu [155.246.89.81]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18916 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 14:54:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (starhawk@localhost) by menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA08918 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 15:54:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 15:54:02 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Angels (was re: Gods vs "Immortals") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com On Thu, 2 May 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > ******* WARNING -- ALIGNMENT PONDERINGS APPROACHING ********* > > I would suppose that using the AD&D two-pronged moral/ethical approach to > alignment, I would put Nyx at Chaotic Neutral, while most of the other > Entropics would lay in the Evil spectrum (Azanteotl - Lawful Evil, Hel - > Neutral Evil, Alphaks - Chaotic Evil). I can't think of any members of > the other Spheres that would be inclined towards the Evil end of the > spectrum off of the top of my head, but as I recall most of them were > clearly on the Good or Neutral sides. Actualy, though, that's the way Umm, Thanatos. The End of All Life is a pretty evil goal. Waking up in the morning and going "Gee, what should I do... Kill everyone sounds good." IMO qualifies you as evil. I'd definately put him at Lawful Evil, its a very organized destruction of all life, but still evil. Otherwise I'd have to say: Alphaks CE Atzanteotl LE Bagni Gullymaw ?? (He's trying to improve the Trolls, not exactly evil) Hel NE Jamudaru CE (Nightmares, incarnation of pure hatred) Loki CN Masauwu LE (Organized recruiting by trickery and betrayal) Nyx C? (Not sure. She's not evil really, but not exactly good) Orcus CE (Random mass destruction) Ranivorus CE (Hatred, Insanity, Humanoid raids) Talitha LE (Self Gratification at others expense) Thanatos LE (The End Of All Life) Yagrai ?? (Patron of Humanoids, not an evil thing or even necessarily Chaotic) > that most of the world of Mystara is portrayed. Just when you think > you've found a truly "Evil" group, you find out that their side of the > story is usually just as justifiable as the other side (c.f. The > Humanoids of the Broken Lands and the Shadow Elves). That's one of the > things I like about Mystara and always have, nothing is ever as simple as > it might seem on first glance. I always liked this too. There were no clearly defined lines of Good or Evil. ________________ |] |] |]ruce | ierpont ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 18:10:34 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA11557; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:10:22 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA18972 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 15:50:56 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA18954 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 15:49:10 -0500 Received: from cs.oberlin.edu (occs.cs.oberlin.edu [132.162.30.128]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA22242 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 15:37:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from @cs.oberlin.edu (rm202.fairchild.oberlin.edu [132.162.235.70]) by cs.oberlin.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA17893 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 16:37:15 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:37:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199605022037.QAA17893@cs.oberlin.edu> X-Sender: azure@cs.oberlin.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: mystara-l@io.com From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com At 02:22 PM 5/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >I don't think that this alignment should be restrictive, just a >generalization, and members of a particular Sphere probably shouldn't >move into an opposed alignment without changing Spheres (i.e. an Entropic >could be a Neutral alignment (Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, etc.) but >couln't be a Good alignment. This puts the Sphere of Time in the >position to be any alignment, and also allows members of other Spheres to >be evil as well (except for Thought, which is the only snag I have right >now. I can see how Entropics can't be Good, but how can Thought not be >Evil :( Of course you can do it however you want, but normally Thought is any alignment, while Time is neutral, Matter is lawful, and Energy is chaotic. >And, personally, I think the "class tendencies" are a mistake for the >Spheres. I think that the designers went a little overboard with the >whole 4 thing when they were making the boxed set, and so in my campaign >I've done away with them (for the most part). Sure its easier for a mage >to become a member of the Sphere of Energy or a Fighter to become a >member of the Sphere of Thought (how ironic), but that's because of the >way the members of the Sphere have outlined the entrance requirements, >not because of anything specially attuned to the Sphere itself (at least >in my campaign). Similarly, I don't think there's irony with fighters, because they are favored by Matter, not Thought. Thieves are favored by Thought. Clerics are favored by Time. Wizards are favored by Energy. I wouldn't restrict classes to certain Spheres, but I do think the biases make a good amount of sense. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 19:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment On Thu, 2 May 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > At 02:22 PM 5/2/96 -0400, you wrote: > > Of course you can do it however you want, but normally Thought is > any alignment, while Time is neutral, Matter is lawful, and Energy is chaotic. yah, I know. However when you throw in the AD&D Moral Alignments into the whole thing, it clutters up the neat symmetry of the Sphere definitions. > Similarly, I don't think there's irony with fighters, because they > are favored by Matter, not Thought. Thieves are favored by Thought. > Clerics are favored by Time. Wizards are favored by Energy. I wouldn't > restrict classes to certain Spheres, but I do think the biases make a good > amount of sense. Sorry, I was looking at the Codex and I didn't think they'd changed it too much from the Gold Box. According to the Codex Thought favors fighters and thieves, Time favors clerics, Energy favors mages and Matter favors no one. - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Alex Trebek, the game show host?" - - from a recent episode of X-Files, don't ask, its too much to explain ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 18:56:09 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Novels I purchased "Dragonmage of Mystara" the other day, and am working my way through it (I /love/ 400+ page novels.. :) ).. I figured I might as well share my own opinions on the different Mystara-based novels, and see what everybody else thinks.. Spoilers Ho! ;) "The Tainted Sword", "The Dragon's Tomb", and "The Fall of Magic", all by D. J. Heinrich: As novels, they're enjoyable, with several plot twists I saw coming and quite a few I didn't. However, as Mystara material.. well, I try to ignore them. :) IMC, I made a few references to the events and heroes, setting it approx. 1002 AC, but otherwise ignore most of it. "Dark Knight of Karameikos" by ??: Rather well done, actually, although I'm not entirely sure about just what plane the Fiend is from.. I recommend it to Mystara fen. "Dragonlord of Mystara", "Dragonking of Mystara", and "Dragonmage of Mystara", all by Thorarinn Gunnarsson: Now /this/ is what Mystara should be! Well-researched and placed in a definate time (ie, I haven't found any discrepencies.. he mentions 'Traladara' instead of Karameikos, a major character, Thyatian, is called 'Darius Glantri', etc.. :) ), not to mention good writing and plotting... Although it does get more and more 'munchkin'esque as the trilogy continues. I don't suppose anybody knows how to get in contact with the authour..? :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:27:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks At 05:35 PM 5/2/96 EDT, you wrote: >David 'Azure' Leland writes: [...] >>I don't suppose there's anything wrong with thinking >> that beings in search of Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy can reach a >> stage half-way along the way where they get the form of a fiend. Just a >> possibility... > > Well, the thing is once you reach a state such as Titan or Fiend >further progression becomes impossible, you're stuck in that state forever... I don't recall for certain, but I think that at least the implication in WotI is that, like you say, Titan or Fiend status disqualifies you. On the other hand, I can see how a candidate could seem good enough to be Exalted but not good enough to be Immortal, but then go off and accomplish deeds as Titan or Fiend that make it elgible again. I should think it extremely rare, but I wouldn't completely disallow it. Also, someone could be Transformed (as per the Immortal-level spell) with the intention of giving the creature a new form and abilities, without making it Exalted and thus unable to reach Immmortality. That's what I was referring to above, where I could see such Transformation being a gift, perhaps even before the quest for Immortality. Later, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels Daniel Boese pontificated: > > I purchased "Dragonmage of Mystara" the other day, and am working my way > through it (I /love/ 400+ page novels.. :) ).. Wow, it is out already. That gives me something to do after the finals are over. Of course, this is probably the last of Mystara product (sigh). > > "The Tainted Sword", "The Dragon's Tomb", and "The Fall of Magic", all > by D. J. Heinrich: As novels, they're enjoyable, with several plot twists > I saw coming and quite a few I didn't. However, as Mystara material.. > well, I try to ignore them. :) IMC, I made a few references to the > events and heroes, setting it approx. 1002 AC, but otherwise ignore most > of it. Agreed. They are just average fantasy novels with a few Mystrian names throwing in ... seemly almost at random. I wouldn't recommened them as they add very little background material on Mystara. > > "Dark Knight of Karameikos" by ??: Rather well done, actually, although > I'm not entirely sure about just what plane the Fiend is from.. I > recommend it to Mystara fen. The only thing I don't like about this novel is that I can't see Karameiko or any other country allow mercenary band that large just roaming around in the country side. Also the culture gap between Karameiko Thyatian and Traladaran seems to be much greater than what was stated in the Gazetteers. However, that is actually probably more realistic. > "Dragonlord of Mystara", "Dragonking of Mystara", and "Dragonmage of > Mystara", all by Thorarinn Gunnarsson: Now /this/ is what Mystara should > be! Well-researched and placed in a definate time (ie, I haven't found any > discrepencies.. he mentions 'Traladara' instead of Karameikos, a major > character, Thyatian, is called 'Darius Glantri', etc.. :) ), not to > mention good writing and plotting... Although it does get more and more > 'munchkin'esque as the trilogy continues. After reading the first two of the trilogy, I can't say I like the plot very much, but the author definatly know Mystara very well, and provided much background information on early Glantri. So does anyone know whether the death of Mystara line also meant the end of Mystara novels? - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #109 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 3 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 110 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 19:53:23 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] alphaks", sent at 19:53 EDT on 02-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 19:53 EDT on 02-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:32:50 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "[Mystara] Novels", sent at 20:32 EDT on 02-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 20:32 EDT on 02-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:56:11 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] alphaks", sent at 21:55 EDT on 02-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 21:56 EDT on 02-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:26:48 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment", sent at 20:26 EDT on 02-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 20:26 EDT on 02-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 19:53:23 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA13894; Thu, 2 May 1996 19:53:01 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA19329 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 16:49:43 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA19305 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 16:42:51 -0500 Received: from wabakimi.carleton.ca (jduncan2@wabakimi.carleton.ca [134.117.1.98]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA26280 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 16:34:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jduncan2@localhost) by wabakimi.carleton.ca (8.7.1/8.7.1) id RAA00035 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 2 May 1996 17:35:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Jody Duncan Message-Id: <199605022135.RAA00035@wabakimi.carleton.ca> Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks To: mystara-l@IO.COM Date: Thu, 2 May 96 17:35:32 EDT In-Reply-To: <199605020122.VAA07713@cs.oberlin.edu>; from "David 'Azure' Leland" at May 1, 96 9:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-mystara-l@IO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@IO.COM David 'Azure' Leland writes: > >or pg 14 of the Codex "Alphaks was the mortal ruler of a kingdom called > >Alphatia on a faraway world in another plane of existence" > >Alphaks isn't even mentioned in IM2, but i think it's safe to say that he > >was never a fiend.... One of the names he is know by is THE Roaring Demon, > >but all immortals have many names like Solarios ( Ixion ), and Father Time > >( Khoronus )... > > The person mentioned M2, not IM2, but now that you mention it, I was > wrong when I said he's described explicity in M2. It's M1 Into the Oops, my mistake. > Maelstrom that I was thinking of, and in that it is made quite clear that he > is an Immortal, not an Exalted being. I don't think he was intended to ever > have been a fiend, but I don't suppose there's anything wrong with thinking > that beings in search of Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy can reach a > stage half-way along the way where they get the form of a fiend. Just a > possibility... Well, the thing is once you reach a state such as Titan or Fiend further progression becomes impossible, you're stuck in that state forever... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:26:48 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA14972; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:26:31 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA20019 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:21:06 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA19995 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:18:23 -0500 Received: from chip.bgsu.edu (chip.bgsu.edu [129.1.3.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA03113 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:14:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jmorris@localhost) by chip.bgsu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA08836; Thu, 2 May 1996 19:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 19:14:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Morris X-Sender: jmorris@chip.bgsu.edu To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment In-Reply-To: <199605022037.QAA17893@cs.oberlin.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com On Thu, 2 May 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > At 02:22 PM 5/2/96 -0400, you wrote: > > Of course you can do it however you want, but normally Thought is > any alignment, while Time is neutral, Matter is lawful, and Energy is chaotic. yah, I know. However when you throw in the AD&D Moral Alignments into the whole thing, it clutters up the neat symmetry of the Sphere definitions. > Similarly, I don't think there's irony with fighters, because they > are favored by Matter, not Thought. Thieves are favored by Thought. > Clerics are favored by Time. Wizards are favored by Energy. I wouldn't > restrict classes to certain Spheres, but I do think the biases make a good > amount of sense. Sorry, I was looking at the Codex and I didn't think they'd changed it too much from the Gold Box. According to the Codex Thought favors fighters and thieves, Time favors clerics, Energy favors mages and Matter favors no one. - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Alex Trebek, the game show host?" - - from a recent episode of X-Files, don't ask, its too much to explain ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:32:50 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA17427; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:32:29 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA20025 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:21:44 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA19988 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:17:36 -0500 Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02830 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:09:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) id SAA27103; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:56:09 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 18:56:09 -0400 (EST) From: Daniel Boese To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I purchased "Dragonmage of Mystara" the other day, and am working my way through it (I /love/ 400+ page novels.. :) ).. I figured I might as well share my own opinions on the different Mystara-based novels, and see what everybody else thinks.. Spoilers Ho! ;) "The Tainted Sword", "The Dragon's Tomb", and "The Fall of Magic", all by D. J. Heinrich: As novels, they're enjoyable, with several plot twists I saw coming and quite a few I didn't. However, as Mystara material.. well, I try to ignore them. :) IMC, I made a few references to the events and heroes, setting it approx. 1002 AC, but otherwise ignore most of it. "Dark Knight of Karameikos" by ??: Rather well done, actually, although I'm not entirely sure about just what plane the Fiend is from.. I recommend it to Mystara fen. "Dragonlord of Mystara", "Dragonking of Mystara", and "Dragonmage of Mystara", all by Thorarinn Gunnarsson: Now /this/ is what Mystara should be! Well-researched and placed in a definate time (ie, I haven't found any discrepencies.. he mentions 'Traladara' instead of Karameikos, a major character, Thyatian, is called 'Darius Glantri', etc.. :) ), not to mention good writing and plotting... Although it does get more and more 'munchkin'esque as the trilogy continues. I don't suppose anybody knows how to get in contact with the authour..? :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:56:11 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA03064; Thu, 2 May 1996 21:52:11 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA20565 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 19:50:43 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA20511 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 19:37:01 -0500 Received: from cs.oberlin.edu (occs.cs.oberlin.edu [132.162.30.128]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA07583 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 19:27:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rm202.fairchild.oberlin.edu (rm202.fairchild.oberlin.edu [132.162.235.70]) by cs.oberlin.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA24437 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:27:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:27:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199605030027.UAA24437@cs.oberlin.edu> X-Sender: azure@cs.oberlin.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: mystara-l@io.com From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com At 05:35 PM 5/2/96 EDT, you wrote: >David 'Azure' Leland writes: [...] >>I don't suppose there's anything wrong with thinking >> that beings in search of Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy can reach a >> stage half-way along the way where they get the form of a fiend. Just a >> possibility... > > Well, the thing is once you reach a state such as Titan or Fiend >further progression becomes impossible, you're stuck in that state forever... I don't recall for certain, but I think that at least the implication in WotI is that, like you say, Titan or Fiend status disqualifies you. On the other hand, I can see how a candidate could seem good enough to be Exalted but not good enough to be Immortal, but then go off and accomplish deeds as Titan or Fiend that make it elgible again. I should think it extremely rare, but I wouldn't completely disallow it. Also, someone could be Transformed (as per the Immortal-level spell) with the intention of giving the creature a new form and abilities, without making it Exalted and thus unable to reach Immmortality. That's what I was referring to above, where I could see such Transformation being a gift, perhaps even before the quest for Immortality. Later, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 22:40:51 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Novels", sent at 22:39 EDT on 02-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 22:40 EDT on 02-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 22:40:51 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian From ???@??? Sat May 04 13:09:07 1996 X-UIDL: 87132e5d8544f65bf2a11665e5343525 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA02669; Fri, 3 May 1996 15:56:43 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22477 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:38:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:38:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199605030538.AAA22477@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #110 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Status: RO Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id WAA05272; Thu, 2 May 1996 22:17:25 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA20854 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:30:38 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA20787 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:20:11 -0500 Received: from virginia.edu (mars.itc.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA10097 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:18:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kelvin.seas.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa18294; 2 May 96 21:18 EDT Received: (from scy2g@localhost) by kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.6) id VAA66266 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 2 May 1996 21:18:28 -0400 From: Shin Chyang Yu Message-Id: <199605030118.VAA66266@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels To: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:18:28 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Daniel Boese" at May 2, 96 06:56:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Daniel Boese pontificated: > > I purchased "Dragonmage of Mystara" the other day, and am working my way > through it (I /love/ 400+ page novels.. :) ).. Wow, it is out already. That gives me something to do after the finals are over. Of course, this is probably the last of Mystara product (sigh). > > "The Tainted Sword", "The Dragon's Tomb", and "The Fall of Magic", all > by D. J. Heinrich: As novels, they're enjoyable, with several plot twists > I saw coming and quite a few I didn't. However, as Mystara material.. > well, I try to ignore them. :) IMC, I made a few references to the > events and heroes, setting it approx. 1002 AC, but otherwise ignore most > of it. Agreed. They are just average fantasy novels with a few Mystrian names throwing in ... seemly almost at random. I wouldn't recommened them as they add very little background material on Mystara. > > "Dark Knight of Karameikos" by ??: Rather well done, actually, although > I'm not entirely sure about just what plane the Fiend is from.. I > recommend it to Mystara fen. The only thing I don't like about this novel is that I can't see Karameiko or any other country allow mercenary band that large just roaming around in the country side. Also the culture gap between Karameiko Thyatian and Traladaran seems to be much greater than what was stated in the Gazetteers. However, that is actually probably more realistic. > "Dragonlord of Mystara", "Dragonking of Mystara", and "Dragonmage of > Mystara", all by Thorarinn Gunnarsson: Now /this/ is what Mystara should > be! Well-researched and placed in a definate time (ie, I haven't found any > discrepencies.. he mentions 'Traladara' instead of Karameikos, a major > character, Thyatian, is called 'Darius Glantri', etc.. :) ), not to > mention good writing and plotting... Although it does get more and more > 'munchkin'esque as the trilogy continues. After reading the first two of the trilogy, I can't say I like the plot very much, but the author definatly know Mystara very well, and provided much background information on early Glantri. So does anyone know whether the death of Mystara line also meant the end of Mystara novels? - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (Shawn) Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:54:48 +1000 Subject: [Mystara] Odyssey Question I saw on the list not long ago that the Odyssey series will not be release by TSR and tht instead it was going to be somehow released "over the net" (I think it was) My question is how exactly will this information be released, if indeed it is still _being_ released. I somehow doubt they are going to mail the text to this mailing list ... Also if this information is being placed in an area not accessible to many people will the information then be able to passed on to other people on the net of whatever. Thanks What are you going to do for an encore? Anally rape my mother while pouring sugar in my gas tank? -- Dante Hicks, Clerks Shawn Stanley s9406058@student.anu.edu.au http://www.aph.gov.au:8080/shawn ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 2 May 96 23:06:52 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels Shin Chyang Yu writes: > > > "The Tainted Sword", "The Dragon's Tomb", and "The Fall of Magic", all > > by D. J. Heinrich: As novels, they're enjoyable, with several plot twists > > I saw coming and quite a few I didn't. However, as Mystara material.. > > well, I try to ignore them. :) IMC, I made a few references to the > > events and heroes, setting it approx. 1002 AC, but otherwise ignore most > > of it. > > Agreed. They are just average fantasy novels with a few Mystrian names > throwing in ... seemly almost at random. I wouldn't recommened them as > they add very little background material on Mystara. Actually, i kind of liked some of the background those novels gave on the Penhaligon region of Karameikos... Especially the stuff on the humanoids of the Wulfholde hills.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 2 May 96 23:03:53 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks > >>I don't suppose there's anything wrong with thinking > >> that beings in search of Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy can reach a > >> stage half-way along the way where they get the form of a fiend. Just a > >> possibility... > > > > Well, the thing is once you reach a state such as Titan or Fiend > >further progression becomes impossible, you're stuck in that state forever... > > I don't recall for certain, but I think that at least the > implication in WotI is that, like you say, Titan or Fiend status > disqualifies you. On the other hand, I can see how a candidate could seem > good enough to be Exalted but not good enough to be Immortal, but then go > off and accomplish deeds as Titan or Fiend that make it elgible again. I > should think it extremely rare, but I wouldn't completely disallow it. > Also, someone could be Transformed (as per the Immortal-level spell) with > the intention of giving the creature a new form and abilities, without > making it Exalted and thus unable to reach Immmortality. That's what I was > referring to above, where I could see such Transformation being a gift, > perhaps even before the quest for Immortality. Now that's a definite plausability... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:17:13 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Novels", sent at 00:17 EDT on 03-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 00:17 EDT on 03-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:14:16 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by arl-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA19658; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:13:59 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA21476 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 22:10:21 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA21364 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 21:56:15 -0500 Received: from anugpo.anu.edu.au (anugpo.anu.edu.au [150.203.2.6]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA15310 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 21:55:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from student.anu.edu.au (root@student.anu.edu.au [150.203.21.26]) by anugpo.anu.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA11744 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 12:55:00 +1000 Received: from [150.203.102.13] by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA24388; Fri, 3 May 1996 12:54:48 +1000 Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:54:48 +1000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: mystara-l@io.com From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (Shawn) Subject: [Mystara] Odyssey Question Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I saw on the list not long ago that the Odyssey series will not be release by TSR and tht instead it was going to be somehow released "over the net" (I think it was) My question is how exactly will this information be released, if indeed it is still _being_ released. I somehow doubt they are going to mail the text to this mailing list ... Also if this information is being placed in an area not accessible to many people will the information then be able to passed on to other people on the net of whatever. Thanks What are you going to do for an encore? Anally rape my mother while pouring sugar in my gas tank? -- Dante Hicks, Clerks Shawn Stanley s9406058@student.anu.edu.au http://www.aph.gov.au:8080/shawn ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:17:13 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA23870; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:17:01 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA21596 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 22:20:33 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA21470 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 22:10:02 -0500 Received: from wabakimi.carleton.ca (jduncan2@wabakimi.carleton.ca [134.117.1.98]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA15810 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 22:06:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jduncan2@localhost) by wabakimi.carleton.ca (8.7.1/8.7.1) id XAA15868 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 2 May 1996 23:06:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Jody Duncan Message-Id: <199605030306.XAA15868@wabakimi.carleton.ca> Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels To: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu, 2 May 96 23:06:52 EDT In-Reply-To: <199605030118.VAA66266@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU>; from "Shin Chyang Yu" at May 2, 96 9:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Shin Chyang Yu writes: > > > "The Tainted Sword", "The Dragon's Tomb", and "The Fall of Magic", all > > by D. J. Heinrich: As novels, they're enjoyable, with several plot twists > > I saw coming and quite a few I didn't. However, as Mystara material.. > > well, I try to ignore them. :) IMC, I made a few references to the > > events and heroes, setting it approx. 1002 AC, but otherwise ignore most > > of it. > > Agreed. They are just average fantasy novels with a few Mystrian names > throwing in ... seemly almost at random. I wouldn't recommened them as > they add very little background material on Mystara. Actually, i kind of liked some of the background those novels gave on the Penhaligon region of Karameikos... Especially the stuff on the humanoids of the Wulfholde hills.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:50:28 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] alphaks", sent at 00:50 EDT on 03-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 00:50 EDT on 03-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #110 ***************************** From ???@??? Sat May 04 13:09:15 1996 X-UIDL: 2722dd148272a10c9bbee949f75b6bef Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA21844; Sat, 4 May 1996 02:08:14 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA25225 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 10:10:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:10:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199605031510.KAA25225@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #111 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, 3 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 111 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:14:16 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "[Mystara] Odyssey Question", sent at 00:14 EDT on 03-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 00:14 EDT on 03-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:50:28 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA01723; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:50:11 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA21580 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 22:19:49 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA21421 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 22:04:43 -0500 Received: from wabakimi.carleton.ca (jduncan2@wabakimi.carleton.ca [134.117.1.98]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA15626 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 22:03:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jduncan2@localhost) by wabakimi.carleton.ca (8.7.1/8.7.1) id XAA15387 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 2 May 1996 23:03:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Jody Duncan Message-Id: <199605030303.XAA15387@wabakimi.carleton.ca> Subject: Re: [Mystara] alphaks To: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu, 2 May 96 23:03:53 EDT In-Reply-To: <199605030027.UAA24437@cs.oberlin.edu>; from "David 'Azure' Leland" at May 2, 96 8:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com > >>I don't suppose there's anything wrong with thinking > >> that beings in search of Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy can reach a > >> stage half-way along the way where they get the form of a fiend. Just a > >> possibility... > > > > Well, the thing is once you reach a state such as Titan or Fiend > >further progression becomes impossible, you're stuck in that state forever... > > I don't recall for certain, but I think that at least the > implication in WotI is that, like you say, Titan or Fiend status > disqualifies you. On the other hand, I can see how a candidate could seem > good enough to be Exalted but not good enough to be Immortal, but then go > off and accomplish deeds as Titan or Fiend that make it elgible again. I > should think it extremely rare, but I wouldn't completely disallow it. > Also, someone could be Transformed (as per the Immortal-level spell) with > the intention of giving the creature a new form and abilities, without > making it Exalted and thus unable to reach Immmortality. That's what I was > referring to above, where I could see such Transformation being a gift, > perhaps even before the quest for Immortality. Now that's a definite plausability... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Brandy106@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:38:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels No clue. I just bought the last two in the series. Too bad they cancelled the line. I would have loved to see more Mystara products. Why don't you try contacting TSR. TSRinc@aol.com, They should be able to help you, or atleast point you in the right direction. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 02:33:41 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Novels", sent at 02:33 EDT on 03-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 02:33 EDT on 03-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 02:33:41 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id CAA07727; Fri, 3 May 1996 02:33:21 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22528 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:51:02 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA22493 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:45:43 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA23438 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:38:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Brandy106@aol.com Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA09236 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 3 May 1996 01:38:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:38:22 -0400 Message-ID: <960503013821_105649011@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com No clue. I just bought the last two in the series. Too bad they cancelled the line. I would have loved to see more Mystara products. Why don't you try contacting TSR. TSRinc@aol.com, They should be able to help you, or atleast point you in the right direction. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri May 3 06:32:12 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 3 May 96 02:32 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22528 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:51:02 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA22493 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:45:43 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA23438 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:38:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA09236 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 3 May 1996 01:38:22 -0400 From: Brandy106@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:38:22 -0400 Message-ID: <960503013821_105649011@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels Content-Length: 266 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com No clue. I just bought the last two in the series. Too bad they cancelled the line. I would have loved to see more Mystara products. Why don't you try contacting TSR. TSRinc@aol.com, They should be able to help you, or atleast point you in the right direction. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 04:08:19 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Message from Internet", sent at 04:08 EDT on 03-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 04:08 EDT on 03-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 04:08:19 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA22187; Fri, 3 May 1996 04:07:23 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA22793 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 01:51:39 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA22757 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 01:41:01 -0500 Received: from zeus.argo.net (zeus.argo.net [205.198.240.1]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26087 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 01:33:17 -0500 (CDT) From: mystara-l@io.com Message-Id: <199605030633.BAA26087@deliverator.io.com> Report-Version: 2 >To: io.com!mystara-l To: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri May 3 06:32:12 GMT 1996 Original-Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:38:22 -0400 Original-Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels Not-Delivered-To: due to 02 Invalid/Ambiguous Originator/Recipient Name ORIGINAL MESSAGE ATTACHED (rmail: Error # 8 'Invalid recipient') En-Route-To: dick Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 3 May 96 02:32 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22528 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:51:02 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA22493 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:45:43 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA23438 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 00:38:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA09236 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 3 May 1996 01:38:22 -0400 From: Brandy106@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:38:22 -0400 Message-ID: <960503013821_105649011@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels Content-Length: 266 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com No clue. I just bought the last two in the series. Too bad they cancelled the line. I would have loved to see more Mystara products. Why don't you try contacting TSR. TSRinc@aol.com, They should be able to help you, or atleast point you in the right direction. ------------------------------ From: paoloa@ing.unico.it (Paolo Avogadro) Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:16:25 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Alignment (was: Angels) Hi A God IS law. How can mortal say :"this god is good, while that is evil or neutral" Any god has bigger thoughts and intentions. Every god would start a war to preserve his power, in the WotI in fact many immortals, that could be considered good by mortals, want to destroy opposite immortal followers.. Is killing good? Is a war good? Every immortal wants to improve in immortal ranking, and in doing so wants to change the actual multiverse, is he chaotic? or lawful? or simply neutral? I think that when you play an immortal you should consider mainly his goals , and use alignment only to understand how the immortal reaches'em. Also fiends can be considered nor good or evil? I don't think so. Good and Evil still exist , an evil being can fit much more entropy that is the sphere of destruction, not a sphere of creation like the other ones. So you can consider fiends as evil souls reincarnated. But here arises another question are D&D immortals gods? >From the other letters I can say that there are many different thoughts, I simply consider the most powerful immortals as gods. Paolo Avogadro paoloa@ing.unico.it ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 06:38:00 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Alignment (was: Angels)", sent at 06:37 EDT on 03-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 06:38 EDT on 03-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 06:38:00 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA05654; Fri, 3 May 1996 06:37:14 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA23434 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 04:30:16 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA23389 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 04:22:56 -0500 Received: from varano.ing.unico.it (paoloa@[131.175.57.1]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA00896 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 04:19:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: by varano.ing.unico.it (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA23954; Fri, 3 May 1996 11:16:25 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:16:25 +0200 From: paoloa@ing.unico.it (Paolo Avogadro) Message-Id: <9605030916.AA23954@varano.ing.unico.it> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Alignment (was: Angels) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Hi A God IS law. How can mortal say :"this god is good, while that is evil or neutral" Any god has bigger thoughts and intentions. Every god would start a war to preserve his power, in the WotI in fact many immortals, that could be considered good by mortals, want to destroy opposite immortal followers.. Is killing good? Is a war good? Every immortal wants to improve in immortal ranking, and in doing so wants to change the actual multiverse, is he chaotic? or lawful? or simply neutral? I think that when you play an immortal you should consider mainly his goals , and use alignment only to understand how the immortal reaches'em. Also fiends can be considered nor good or evil? I don't think so. Good and Evil still exist , an evil being can fit much more entropy that is the sphere of destruction, not a sphere of creation like the other ones. So you can consider fiends as evil souls reincarnated. But here arises another question are D&D immortals gods? >From the other letters I can say that there are many different thoughts, I simply consider the most powerful immortals as gods. Paolo Avogadro paoloa@ing.unico.it ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 08:10:25 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Odyssey Question > I saw on the list not long ago that the Odyssey series will not be release by > TSR and tht instead it was going to be somehow released "over the net" (I think > it was) > My question is how exactly will this information be released, According to the TSR Rep, the "online exclusive" items will be placed on the licsensed TSR sites, which include ftp://ftp.mpgn.com. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 3 May 96 14:46:03 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara]mastery At 10.33 02/05/96 +0200, you wrote: >Hi > In my campaign there's an additional rule. >I think that only few people can attain a great master level, but with >the normal rules everybody with time and experience can become >a great master. >I stated that if a person tried to improve his skill but failed couldn't > improve his skill in that weapon any more. Although I don't agree with you, this rule can avoid a "problem" I had with my players. During a long period of rest two of them, both basic in the sword, trained together trying to became skilled at no cost. Obviously they failed (1% chance) but both gained a 10% bonus with the next teacher. Now they're both skilled. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 3 May 96 14:45:58 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Money&Dragons At 08.29 02/05/96 +0200, Pasi Anias wrote: >Paolo Avogadro wrote: > >> Hi >> What do you think abaut dragon breath? > >> I stated that dragon breath could harm him because it isn't a phisical >> weapon nor a spell. I consider it a natural power not a magic. >> Imagine a beholder fighting a dragon , the anti-magic ray would cancel >> the dragon breath!!! >> What abaut your dragons? > >Well... you asked. > >I do agree with you. Dragonfire is not a magical attac. The formation >of Dragonfire may or may not have something to do with Dragonmagic, but >the fire itself is fysical. > I agree with you. >And About the statue. Dragonfire (at leas breathed by a bigger dragon) >is hot enough to damage roc, even melt it. If I remember right the statue >spell is not ment to protect the mage from everything, only things that >wouldnt harm wery solid stone. As most dragons can melt roc when they >really want to, they surely can harm the spellbound wizard too. Though I >might give the wizard some help by ruling that the dragon must came at >least to half range of the fire (not much help :) and maybe give him a >save against melting (dragonbreath) with maby some negative bonuses if >the dragon is big (no halfdamage, if the stone starts to melt, it melts). > I don't know if dragonfire can really melt stone, if not the statue shouldn't suffer any damage because fire doesn't damage stone (look at RC, page 116). On the other and if Dragon Breath is so hot to melt rock, I would assess a 1 point of damage per 5 points af maximum possible damage, rounded up, as a Special Attack against stone constructions (RC, page 116). >I dont think other breath-weapons would be so good against statue though. >Acid might have some effect if given a longer time to work... > According to RC (page 116 again) the damage of acid against stone is the same I gave above for dragonfire. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:00:54 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Message "Re: [Mystara] Odyssey Question", sent at 09:00 EDT on 03-May-96, could not be delivered to WOW:telraethian at 09:00 EDT on 03-May-96 because the recipient mailbox is full. ------------------------------ From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Date: 03 May 1996 12:46:31 GMT Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres and Alignment Of course you can do it however you want, but normally Thought is any alignment, while Time is neutral, Matter is lawful, and Energy is chaotic. I was looking over the Mystara Monstrous Compendium index the other day when I came across the entry for Mystaran familiars (Immortals who have taken Mortal form inorder to serve a wizard of their choice). The rules it gave were as follows. Matter repsented law, Energy represented chaos, Time represent neutrality, Entropy represented evil, and (by default) Thought represented good. Andrew McKinstry ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 3 May 96 14:46:07 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Dragons (was Money) At 16.40 29/04/96 +0200, Haavard Faanes wrote: >On Mon, 29 Apr 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >> According to Bruce Heard ("From Hatchling to Immortal Guardian", Dragon Mag. >> #170) adult Dragons needs to learn and perform the Ceremony of Sublimation >> in order to grow in size and power. The Dragon should undergo 5 cycles >> before beginning the Ceremony, this cycles are: >> 1) Hoarding of wealth >> 2) Quest for magic >> 3) Quest for power >> 4) Quest for knowledge >> 5) Feeding >> Let's focuse our attention on part 2: the Dragon should acquire one or more >> magical items, from a simple magical weapon to more arcane items. The older >> the Dragon, the most powerful the item searched. >> Through the Ceremony Dragons may gain additional HD, speaking or >> spellcasting abilities (Bruce Heard assumes that talking dragons aren't >> necessarily able to cast spells) and at last immortality. > >It just struck me! >Maybe the dragions of old werent required to undergo this ceremony.. >Maybe they have been restricted by a curse, forcing them to undergo the >ceremony in order to develope.. > >Or maybe the ceremony is a secret discovered, allowing them to reach >immortality, thus making these dragons more powerful that the firstborn >dragons... > >Hmmm.. >Another idea. >The Fist Dragons were very powerful creatures. But they degenerated, for >some unknown reason. In oprder to regain former glory, they stuidied >magic and discvovered this ceremony... >Perhaps the ceremony was established by the First Great One dragon. >The first dragon to reach immortality, that is... > >What do you think? > A friend of mine suggested that maybe Dragons didn't get bigger before the human race appeared on Mystara because they need wealth and magical items, personally I don't agree. IMO the problem is to know how old are Dragons and when humans (and elves) first appeared on Mystara, with the elves being probably older than humans. Anyway your theory about the Great One may be good: he reached immortality by strange ways and then established the ceremony to allow his followers to reach immortality too. Good idea. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Date: 03 May 1996 12:56:44 GMT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Odyssey Question Here's the story on the Odyssey series. I happen to be on AOL as well, so this is what I heard from Bruce Heard and other people working for TSR. Apparently, TSR has some deal with AOL so that ALL the Oddyssey series will be released EXCLUSIVELY through AOL. This includes the Red Steel Monstrous Compendium, The new complete Red Steel 'boxed set' (basic campaign info, I guess), and something else which I can't remember. TSR's current web site sucks, so there is less than no chance that they will put it on there, and I'm guessing it will be unfortunately restrict to AOL, not the entire net as the rumor goes. Not only are they cutting Mystara off at the knees, they're limiting the new information available through the net. :( :( :( Sorry to be the bearer of ill news, Andrew ------------------------------ From: WOW_Mail Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:00:54 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Delivery report for message to WOW:telraethian Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA15877; Fri, 3 May 1996 09:00:30 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA24084 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 07:31:37 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA24012 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 07:19:47 -0500 Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA05032 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 07:16:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) id IAA03206; Fri, 3 May 1996 08:10:26 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 08:10:25 -0400 (EST) From: Daniel Boese To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Odyssey Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com > I saw on the list not long ago that the Odyssey series will not be release by > TSR and tht instead it was going to be somehow released "over the net" (I think > it was) > My question is how exactly will this information be released, According to the TSR Rep, the "online exclusive" items will be placed on the licsensed TSR sites, which include ftp://ftp.mpgn.com. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #111 ***************************** mystara-digest Monday, 6 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 112 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 07:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Digest Fluff Vote Ends Soon... Just want to remind the digest subscribers that the fluff vote for them ends soon. The offical closing day is one day after the digest with this message in it is delivered to my account. Thanks. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Odyssey Question On 3 May 1996, Andrew McKinstry wrote: > Here's the story on the Odyssey series. I happen to be on AOL as well, so > this is what I heard from Bruce Heard and other people working for TSR. > Apparently, TSR has some deal with AOL so that ALL the Oddyssey series will > be released EXCLUSIVELY through AOL. This includes the Red Steel Monstrous Um, Sean Reynolds (tsrinc@aol.com) responded to apost that I made on rec.games.frp.dnd a week ago asking this same question. He responded that the Odyssey stuff would be available on all of TSR's sites, including MPGN (I asked specifically about MPGN), so I don't think that this is correct (since Sean is the 'net rep and will be in charge of putting it up wherever it goes...) - --- Jeremy Morris (jmorris@mail.bgsu.edu) UCS Microcomputer Lab Technical Support Team - Bowling Green State University "Stay alert, trust no one, keep your laser handy." - - Paranoia the Role Playing Game, West End Games ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Fri, 3 May 96 16:00:46 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Odyssey Question Shawn writes: > > I saw on the list not long ago that the Odyssey series will not be release by > TSR and tht instead it was going to be somehow released "over the net" (I think > it was) > > My question is how exactly will this information be released, if indeed it is > still _being_ released. I somehow doubt they are going to mail the text to > this mailing list ... > > Also if this information is being placed in an area not accessible to many > people will the information then be able to passed on to other people on > the > net of whatever. I also have a similar question.... Will it be free or not? If not how are they goign to arrange payment? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Fri, 3 May 96 16:07:28 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Alignment (was: Angels) Paolo Avogadro writes: > Hi > A God IS law. > How can mortal say :"this god is good, while that is evil or neutral" > Any god has bigger thoughts and intentions. But they can still be judged by mortals. According to the mortals a certain gods actions could be construed as evil, good or neutral. This also depends on which mortals you ask. AD&D simplifies things, in that, it is assumed, they are using the general consensus ( by mortal standings ) of what good and evil are. You know what good is don't you? At least the common definition of it. You know what evil is right? So, you can easily judge which gods are good and which are evil.... It doesn't matter what the gods think, it's the mortals who are judging them... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Keyser Date: Sat, 4 May 96 16:11:30 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Mystara adventure in Dungeon #59 I just picked up Dungeon magazine #59, and there is a Mystara adventure of average quality(for Dungeon), set in Karameikos, featuring a magical gnomish riverboat. Has anyone seen any Mystara supplements in Dragon magazine of late? Dave Keyser ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 20:50:29 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara adventure in Dungeon #59 > I just picked up Dungeon magazine #59, and there is a Mystara adventure of > average quality(for Dungeon), set in Karameikos, featuring a magical gnomish > riverboat. > > Has anyone seen any Mystara supplements in Dragon magazine of late? Or better yet, know of an index of them all? :) I know of an index to Dragon Magazine, but am unsure if there's a similar one for Dungeon.. (I just found a copy of Dragon #155 today.. Princess Ark part 3. Only a few more to go to complete the set.. ;) ) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 5 May 96 12:45:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Odyssey Question At 13.46 03/05/96 -0400, you wrote: >On 3 May 1996, Andrew McKinstry wrote: > >> Here's the story on the Odyssey series. I happen to be on AOL as well, so >> this is what I heard from Bruce Heard and other people working for TSR. >> Apparently, TSR has some deal with AOL so that ALL the Oddyssey series will >> be released EXCLUSIVELY through AOL. This includes the Red Steel Monstrous > > >Um, Sean Reynolds (tsrinc@aol.com) responded to apost that I made on >rec.games.frp.dnd a week ago asking this same question. He responded >that the Odyssey stuff would be available on all of TSR's sites, >including MPGN (I asked specifically about MPGN), so I don't think that >this is correct (since Sean is the 'net rep and will be in charge of >putting it up wherever it goes...) > I hope this is true, because on the TSR site it says that the Odissey stuff will be available exclusively trough AOL (check http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/1996/1996od.html). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Peter Balazs Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 15:46:23 +0200 (MSZ) Subject: [Mystara] Mystara! Hi, there! I've just found this adress in one of the game-related news-groups! So this is the Mystara Mailing List, yes? By the way, what is a mailing list? I'm now an avid Mystara-Known World player and GM for about 7 years. Before that I've played most of the D&D-modules, so I also played in this setting, without knowing much about it! I've been playing and DMing RPG for about 12 years, although I started for real about 9 years ago! I've always played AD&D in the "Known World"setting, because back then I found AD&D more diverse than OD&D. I would be interested in ANY information about the Mystara setting, and I'm also quite ready to send you some of my thoughts and essays. Thanks, Peter (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) ------------------------------ From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Date: 04 May 1996 23:01:59 GMT Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] Odyssey Question You're probably right on that one. Sean Renyolds is the head of their net division, so if you heard it through him, it's true. Andrew ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 13:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! > I've just found this adress in one of the game-related news-groups! So > this is the Mystara Mailing List, yes? By the way, what is a mailing list? Just a place to discuss one topic...like here we discuss one campaign setting-mailing lists usually tend to cover minute areas but everybody on the list does tend to know lots about it. > I've always played AD&D in the "Known World"setting, because back then I > found AD&D more diverse than OD&D. OD&D rules, man! > I would be interested in ANY information about the Mystara setting, and > I'm also quite ready to send you some of my thoughts and essays. Well, we've made lists of races, deities, and TSR products about Mystara. We've also had severel discussions on deities and the different sets of immortal rules... Anything to do with Mystara is basically fine(short stories though is still up for vote) A mirror's image is not reality. It is only an image-Damon Omenborn A real image!-megistal the red robe Like real magic - just because one sees it, that doesn't mean it's there-Damon ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 10:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! On Sun, 5 May 1996, Peter Balazs wrote: > Hi, there! Hello! > I've just found this adress in one of the game-related news-groups! So > this is the Mystara Mailing List, yes? Yes. > By the way, what is a mailing list? A mailing list works like this... 1) On a computer on the net there is an e-mail address that is monitored by a program called Majordomo. 2) Majordomo has a list of people who are subscribed to a particular mailing list, such as Myustara-l. 3) When a letter is sent to that address, Majordomo makes a copy and sends it to every person on the list of subscribers. 4) If a person on the list replies to a letter, it is sent back to Majordomo and resent to everyone on the list. This makes it easy to have a private forum for discussion. Only people on the list recieve a letter, and it makes sure they all recieve it. It makes replying easy. > I would be interested in ANY information about the Mystara setting, and > I'm also quite ready to send you some of my thoughts and essays. Well, this is the right place. The FAQ can be found at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mmlfaq.htm ...or by sending a request to me at... owner-mystara-l@io.com The FAQ will tell you how to subscribe, plus the general rules for the list. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do I know what do I know? (I), never look back never look back (no). Stick it in me stick it in me (I), what do I see what do I see? (now)" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (A Higher Form of) Killing ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 21:52:55 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] [mystara] Clerics (was: Re: Mystara!) On Sun, 5 May 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > Well, we've made lists of races, deities, and TSR products about > Mystara. We've also had severel discussions on deities and the different > sets of immortal rules... I want more info on Clerics and Clerical orders I'm not talking rules, but rather: Descriptions of religions Clerical obligations Religious believes in general, like: Whats the meaning of life? What happens when you die? How to live "right" and why? and any other stuff. Restrictions on clerical behaviour etc,.. I'd like to make up stuff myself, but i dont know where to start.. Haavard ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 21:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] Hello to all and sundry. I am a seasoned veteran of Mystara gaming, having been initiated to gaming through Dungeon Module B3, The Palace of the Silver Princess, back in 1981. I have been running my own campaign in Mystara off and on since 1983 and in that time have probably DMed thousands of individual games. I have a stock of probably 500 player and nonplayer characters (not counting those from TSR products) in various stages of detail and a detailed record of much of my long campaign. So you can see I have invested a big chunk of my life in this campaign world and am overjoyed to see that not only does it have its own mailing list, but it seems to have a pretty good sized following. I notice a good percentage of those posting to the list are Europeans and I wondered if perhaps Mystara has a larger following there than here in the States. It's always seemed to me like Mystara was the least popular TSR campaign setting and no one but me took it seriously, except perhaps for first time DM's who liked the relative simplicity of Basic D&D over AD&D. So I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one. Yesterday I checked out the FNN website (with its newsletters on Mystara events) as well as Fabrizio Paoli's page - I liked the idea of having an adventurer's journal available like that; in some ways having information from the ordinary pursuits of low-level characters is more interesting than the grand-scale political and military background events (no offense to FNN - the sheer amount of stuff there was great and a lot of it was very well thought out). I am very interested to know about variants on the published material as well; my campaign (after 13 years) is significantly different than the official world scheme, but I still manage to integrate material from TSR's new products. I just picked up the Mark of Amber boxed set and highly recommend it to anyone who loves X2 and Glantri; the CD concept is irritating and you'd think they could get some actors who actually sound French but other than that it's very well done. One great thing about it is that the high-fantasy, time-travelling, dimension-hopping nature of Mystara means its easy to shift between slightly divergent versions of the campaign world without worrying too much about the "logic" of how it all fits together. My campaign takes this to an extreme, with ties to the Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, ICE's Spacemaster Universe, Star Trek, Arthurian Avalon, and the Cthulhu mythos. Do others like similarly overblown gaming? If so perhaps we can exchange ideas. I'm presently thinking of having the Ferengi attempt to take over the planet and trade with the natives, hiring goblinoids from Thar as shock troops and arming them with disruptors. Or not. It's all in good fun. So how about those of you who are already on this list? Have others been into Mystara as long as I have? What's the record for most times through B2, X1, and X2? Does anyone have any thoughts on the Old Ones from the Wrath of the Immortals set and their relation to Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith? How is the Red Steel set (haven't managed to pick that one up yet)? Is anyone interested in exchanging campaign histories? (Think before you say yes to that one - remember I've been at this 13 years so I won't take offense if no one wants to listen to all that). Have others besides Mr. Paoli been putting their games on the web? Are there other sources of Mystara material that I have overlooked? I would be very appreciative of any information anyone can give me. Matthew ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 07:26:09 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara]mastery Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Although I don't agree with you, this rule can avoid a "problem" I had with > my players. > During a long period of rest two of them, both basic in the sword, trained > together trying to became skilled at no cost. Obviously they failed (1% > chance) but both gained a 10% bonus with the next teacher. Now they're both > skilled. Hmmm... I dont see a problem here. They practiced a lot and so they are entitled to the bonus. Offcource its a bit strange to gain a bonus bigger than the original change, but its still possible: 1. suppose they trained next with others of their skill: the bonus comes from being able to analyze the differences of the two training parters. Learning from both experiments. (1+1 is not allways 2 :) 2. If next trainer is of higher skill the bonus comes from thinking about the words of the trainer and seeing what was wrong in those earlier trainings. Learning of mistakes... Anyhows, the real problem in weapon training (and other training too) is (IMHO) that the players dont really understand how much practice it really takes. Take a young fighter. Happy, addventurous, a bit mischievous... Coming to town for some rest between two gigs. Its easy to the player to say that as we are here anyway, I'll use the two weeks to train my sword. But for the fighter its totally different. He has just been on tour for weeks, if not months, really looking forward for some rest, celebrating, bear, and girls to tell about the journeys. But suddenly, the next morn they came town, he has to take up his sword and go to the fields practicing swordplay with some geek whos whining all the time. And it costs too. No playing with the girls but hard work, hacking with the heavy sword from morning to sunset, so long he things hes hands will fall. How many of us would be up to that. How often it has happened to you that the vacation goes before you got to the work and practice you thought to do on your holidays, as theres the time? I've seen it a few times :) So last time we played I came up with a idea. The players of the mages thought they would use the evening before taking a march to study a bit... Well I told them to roll on wisdom. One made it, studying, but the two others missed, and took the books up, but ended in an tavern, drinking a bit and having fun a lot... Though its not allways good to roll, this time it was fun. And to the previous posters idea (which I deleted a bit too hastly). I dont think its good to give the players only one chance to learn their skill. rather I just thought about this: If the character misses the roll to become more skilled, they can find the new teacher, and learn more. BUT the teacher must be of higher skill than the teacher before. So if master wasnt able to teach you, the grand master still might (with the bonus too). But if even the grand master is not able to teach you, your luck is up. You just werent up to it. Obviously this limits the advancing, but not as much as the original idea of one fail and your out. And also this system is not linear, but rather gets harder as you come more skilled (less possible teacher levels), and IMHO thats the way it should bee. Well, thats enough ramblings for that... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 6 May 96 15:35:26 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara]mastery At 07.26 06/05/96 +0200, Anias Pasi wrote: >Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >> Although I don't agree with you, this rule can avoid a "problem" I had with >> my players. >> During a long period of rest two of them, both basic in the sword, trained >> together trying to became skilled at no cost. Obviously they failed (1% >> chance) but both gained a 10% bonus with the next teacher. Now they're both >> skilled. > >Hmmm... I dont see a problem here. They practiced a lot and so they are >entitled to the bonus. Offcource its a bit strange to gain a bonus bigger >than the original change, but its still possible: > >1. suppose they trained next with others of their skill: > the bonus comes from being able to analyze the differences > of the two training parters. Learning from both experiments. > (1+1 is not allways 2 :) > >2. If next trainer is of higher skill > the bonus comes from thinking about the words of the trainer > and seeing what was wrong in those earlier trainings. Learning > of mistakes... > Yes, perhaps "problem" wasn't the right word. I tried to say that maybe this way of training wasn't in the mind of who designed the rules for Weapon Mastery, it's like the players are cheating on the rules... :-) >Anyhows, the real problem in weapon training (and other training too) >is (IMHO) that the players dont really understand how much practice >it really takes. Take a young fighter. Happy, addventurous, a bit >mischievous... Coming to town for some rest between two gigs. Its >easy to the player to say that as we are here anyway, I'll use >the two weeks to train my sword. But for the fighter its totally >different. He has just been on tour for weeks, if not months, really >looking forward for some rest, celebrating, bear, and girls to tell about >the journeys. But suddenly, the next morn they came town, he has to take >up his sword and go to the fields practicing swordplay with some geek >whos whining all the time. And it costs too. No playing with the girls >but hard work, hacking with the heavy sword from morning to sunset, >so long he things hes hands will fall. I told my PC that the train only for half a day, usually from sunset to noon and then they have the afternoon free... like the school. And now something slightly different: RC sets rules for weapon training, what about training for skills ? RC says really nothing. It's all as if a PC wakes up one morning after reaching, say, 5th level and suddenly knows fills his newly acquired slot with Blindfighting or Animal Lore... just to make an example. I decided to use the same rules given for Weapon Mastery (cost and time) to have the PC learn new skills when they have free slots. Just learning a new skill will cost them as a basic weapon mastery, a +1 is like a skilled WM and so on. Have you got other rules ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 6 May 96 15:35:22 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Re: At 21.07 05/05/96 -0700, Matthew Levy wrote: >Hello to all and sundry. > >I am a seasoned veteran of Mystara gaming, having been initiated to >gaming through Dungeon Module B3, The Palace of the Silver Princess, back in >1981. I have been running my own campaign in Mystara off and on since >1983 and in that time have probably DMed thousands of individual games. >I have a stock of probably 500 player and nonplayer characters (not >counting those from TSR products) in various stages of detail and a From ???@??? Tue May 07 13:31:39 1996 X-UIDL: 44fe6f3c019d0b2c55f356400410bfdf Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA02932; Tue, 7 May 1996 00:49:52 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA14432 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 6 May 1996 09:26:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 09:26:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199605061426.JAA14432@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #112 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk >detailed record of much of my long campaign. So you can see I have >invested a big chunk of my life in this campaign world and am overjoyed >to see that not only does it have its own mailing list, but it seems to >have a pretty good sized following. As someone here put it: we're the ones that must keep Mystara alive... > > I notice a good percentage of those posting to the list are >Europeans and I wondered if perhaps Mystara has a larger following there >than here in the States. It's always seemed to me like Mystara was the >least popular TSR campaign setting and no one but me took it seriously, >except perhaps for first time DM's who liked the relative simplicity of >Basic D&D over AD&D. So I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one. Probably Mystara has a larger following in Europe because here D&D stuff was much easier to find than AD&D stuff, at least in Italy until 4-5 years ago. >Yesterday I checked out the FNN website (with its newsletters on Mystara >events) as well as Fabrizio Paoli's page - I liked the idea of having an >adventurer's journal available like that; in some ways having >information from the ordinary pursuits of low-level characters is more >interesting than the grand-scale political and military background events >(no offense to FNN - the sheer amount of stuff there was great and a lot >of it was very well thought out). > Thanks for checking my page. Now I've almost finished to update the diary of my campaign and soon I'll start to put there some info about the towns my PC visited, like inns, notable places, important NPC's... > > So how about those of you who are already on this list? Have >others been into Mystara as long as I have? What's the record for most >times through B2, X1, and X2? Does anyone have any thoughts on the Old >Ones from the Wrath of the Immortals set and their relation to Lovecraft >and Clark Ashton Smith? How is the Red Steel set (haven't managed to >pick that one up yet)? Is anyone interested in exchanging campaign >histories? (Think before you say yes to that one - remember I've been at >this 13 years so I won't take offense if no one wants to listen to all >that). Have others besides Mr. Paoli been putting their games on the >web? Are there other sources of Mystara material that I have overlooked? > Call me Fabrizio, or Fabry or 'Brizio or Izio, but not Mr. Paoli :-) Other sources of Mystara material ? Did you try the links in my Home Page ? Red Steel: I have it, both the first book and the Savage Baronies expansion. It's not bad, but it has 2 "faults": 1) It's AD&D and I play OD&D, but this isn't a big problem 2) They changed the Red Curse from how it was originally described by Bruce Heard in the Princess Ark series. TSR said they did it to convert the setting to AD&D, but the whole thing doesn't convince me too much. Anyway it would be nice to have a discussion on Red Steel here on the list... ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #112 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 7 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 113 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D.J. Sahlas" Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 13:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Novels On Thu, 2 May 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > "The Tainted Sword", "The Dragon's Tomb", and "The Fall of Magic", all > by D. J. Heinrich I was disappointed with the first one, disgusted with the second one and mildly interested in the last one. The trilogy by Thorrarrin Gunnarsson (sp?) is very good, on the other hand. Well researched, and adds plenty to a vague portion of Glantri's history. As for his writing style, he relates the story rather than TELL it. In other words, I was interested because of the Mystara elements, but T.G. is no E.R.B. or R.E.H. How much do you want to bet that Solveig and Darius have a son called Alexander? Also, I really liked the conclusion, even if it contradicted some previously published info. Jim Sahlas ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 17:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Curse Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > 2) They changed the Red Curse from how it was originally described by Bruce > Heard in the Princess Ark series. TSR said they did it to convert the > setting to AD&D, but the whole thing doesn't convince me too much. > Anyway it would be nice to have a discussion on Red Steel here on the list... Ok, how about start from this: What is the difference between the Red Curse in Princess Ark series and the Red Steel box set. I know the one thats described in the box set, but I have yet to have a chance to read through all of the Princess Ark series in Dragons. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Mon, 6 May 96 19:22:09 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Curse Shin Chyang Yu writes: > > Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > 2) They changed the Red Curse from how it was originally described by Bruce > > Heard in the Princess Ark series. TSR said they did it to convert the > > setting to AD&D, but the whole thing doesn't convince me too much. > > Anyway it would be nice to have a discussion on Red Steel here on the list... > > Ok, how about start from this: What is the difference between the Red > Curse in Princess Ark series and the Red Steel box set. I know the one > thats described in the box set, but I have yet to have a chance to read > through all of the Princess Ark series in Dragons. The Red Curse originaly didn't give Legacies... it just killed ya, and made red steel as well... Don't have all the details but i'll dig them up for the discussion... Most of the red curse info was in Dragon #171 or 172 i'm not sure.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 19:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] [mystara] Clerics (was: Re: Mystara!) > I want more info on Clerics and Clerical orders > I'm not talking rules, but rather: > Descriptions of religions > Clerical obligations > Religious believes in general, like: > > Whats the meaning of life? > > What happens when you die? > > How to live "right" and why? > > and any other stuff. > Restrictions on clerical behaviour etc,.. Well, I did something of this nature for the church of Tarastia(Milenian branch). Not all of it, but if someone wnats a copy just email me! A mirror's image is not reality. It is only an image-Damon Omenborn A real image!-megistal the red robe Like real magic - just because one sees it, that doesn't mean it's there-Damon ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 07:43:58 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara]mastery > Yes, perhaps "problem" wasn't the right word. I tried to say that maybe this > way of training wasn't in the mind of who designed the rules for Weapon > Mastery, it's like the players are cheating on the rules... :-) You might be right ofcource... > I told my PC that the train only for half a day, usually from sunset to noon > and then they have the afternoon free... like the school. Yes. i was a bit unaccurate. I make them train from morn to sunset, but there is really a rest-period in between. They only use like 8 hours a day to train, other 8 goes to sleep, 1-2 hours to basics (eating, personal hygiene, home maintenance etc), at least 1 hour to rest after the first training period (they sleep after the second) and so they only have 5-6 hours to everything else (shopping, dating, hearing rumors, being with friends, celebrating, etc). Not much. Excpecially as they are still a bit tired after the trainings... > And now something slightly different: RC sets rules for weapon training, > what about training for skills ? RC says really nothing. It's all as if a PC > wakes up one morning after reaching, say, 5th level and suddenly knows fills > his newly acquired slot with Blindfighting or Animal Lore... just to make an > example. > I decided to use the same rules given for Weapon Mastery (cost and time) to > have the PC learn new skills when they have free slots. Just learning a new > skill will cost them as a basic weapon mastery, a +1 is like a skilled WM > and so on. > Have you got other rules ? Yes. In my game you can only get skills from levels 0 to +5. the 0 is like unskilled, but must anyway be bought. 1 is basic and so forth. A work skill must be of level 1 before a man can really use it for day to day work (say a smith of level 0 must roll on everything he does, but at level 1 he can make the basic rolls at default without rolling, though still a bigger work needs a roll (say a sword)). at level 2 the workman can be said to be good at his work. level three is excellent, and well known locally, can do some excellent peaces of art. Level 4 is truly a master. Known at least in the whole country. And there might not be one in a small country. Level 5 is a grand master. The master of masters. Not many, if any in the whole world (theres said to be only two real grand master smiths in rockhome. The cost waries a bit with each skill, as well as the time it takes. but the %-roll needed to learn comes from the weaponskills. Needles to say, we use a lot of skills in our games. I have collected a list (which I couls send) of skills from the gaz and more, and unless you have the skill its not easy to do anything (at -5 if can be rolled). Also New characters get a bit more skills: 4 at beginning, 1 more every 4 levels (4,9, etc). and the bonus skills from int too. But we also get bonus skills from other atributes, but these must be put to the skills that use the attribute in question, say with a dex of 14 (+1) you might buy a level of riding, or dancing, etc... Theres a exceptions offcourse. The int bonused as said can be used on any skills. And as there are not many skills on str and con, I usually allow these bonused to be put on unarmed combat, combat oriented skills (two-handed fighting, blindfihting etc, which can be bought with weaponskills too) and even to buy more weapons on basic levels (not higher thought). Also if a newly made character has a skill at level of 1 or higher, I allow them to roll on the skill, to see if they have allready created something with their skill. If the skill is at level 2 they get two rolls, at 3 3rolls etc. The players have liked a lot to have a self-made sword, or self-trained dog, or an really own magical formula or what ever. And most characters get swimming at 0 for free Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: StarHawk Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 01:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Curse On Mon, 6 May 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Shin Chyang Yu writes: > > > > Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > > 2) They changed the Red Curse from how it was originally described by Bruce > > > Heard in the Princess Ark series. TSR said they did it to convert the > > > setting to AD&D, but the whole thing doesn't convince me too much. > > > Anyway it would be nice to have a discussion on Red Steel here on the list... > > > > Ok, how about start from this: What is the difference between the Red > > Curse in Princess Ark series and the Red Steel box set. I know the one > > thats described in the box set, but I have yet to have a chance to read > > through all of the Princess Ark series in Dragons. > > The Red Curse originaly didn't give Legacies... it just killed ya, > and made red steel as well... Don't have all the details but i'll dig them > up for the discussion... Most of the red curse info was in Dragon #171 or > 172 i'm not sure.... > Perhaps an appropriate explination for the change would be the alterations that occured when the Herath spells failed during the Day of Dread? Perhaps the spells didn't just contain it but also tried to supress its effects, but wound up suppressing the benficial side effects instead of the deterimental part. Perhaps the mages of Herath never intended this side effect but it happened anyway. "Converting to AD&D" isn't a good enough reason, but there are plenty of plausable explinations to cover the change. Personally I find the legacies more interesting than just getting the curse kills you. ________________ |] |] |]ruce | ierpont ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 13:41:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] [mystara] Clerics (was: Re: Mystara!) On Mon, 6 May 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > Well, I did something of this nature for the church of Tarastia(Milenian > branch). Not all of it, but if someone wnats a copy just email me! Yes, what you mailed to the list was good. I'd like us to make up similar descriptions of other churches as well.. Since my campaigns are primarily based in the known world.... Haavard ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 14:04:49 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara]mastery On Tue, 7 May 1996, Anias Pasi wrote: > Needles to say, we use a lot of skills in our games. I have collected > a list (which I couls send) of skills from the gaz and more, and unless I like this, sed all of it. Haavard ------------------------------ From: Henrik Nordhus Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 17:45:29 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Curse At 19:22 06.05.96 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: >Shin Chyang Yu writes: >> >> Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: >> > 2) They changed the Red Curse from how it was originally described by Bruce >> > Heard in the Princess Ark series. TSR said they did it to convert the >> > setting to AD&D, but the whole thing doesn't convince me too much. >> > Anyway it would be nice to have a discussion on Red Steel here on the list... >> >> Ok, how about start from this: What is the difference between the Red >> Curse in Princess Ark series and the Red Steel box set. I know the one >> thats described in the box set, but I have yet to have a chance to read >> through all of the Princess Ark series in Dragons. > > The Red Curse originaly didn't give Legacies... it just killed ya, >and made red steel as well... Don't have all the details but i'll dig them >up for the discussion... Most of the red curse info was in Dragon #171 or >172 i'm not sure.... The way I understood it was that the red curse had changed somehow during the Wrath of the Immortals. I haven't read any of this material in a long time but I seem to remember something about that in the RS-box. - ----------------------------------------------- Henrik Nordhus __ Hausmannsgt. 34 )^^( 0182 Oslo ^^ NORWAY Phone : 22207746 E-Mail : Henrik.nordhus@hfstud.uio.no - ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "David Jackson" Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 11:14:20 -8 Subject: [Mystara] Re: >I am a seasoned veteran of Mystara gaming, having been initiated to >gaming through Dungeon Module B3, The Palace of the Silver Princess, back in >1981. Like you I have been running adventures in Mystara since the very early days. I usually DM and have been on this list since last year. From ???@??? Thu May 09 10:22:56 1996 X-UIDL: df9cbc9054b5d604880f3152df2bc1e8 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA20508; Wed, 8 May 1996 08:08:53 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA26377 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 16:40:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 16:40:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199605072140.QAA26377@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #113 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Status: RO I haven't posted to anyone here before, every seems to know so much more about the world that I not wanted to look foolish. > How is the Red Steel set (haven't managed to pick that one up yet)? I rather like it, (I have a player who picked up a suit of red steel chain mail and since the metal is magical and changes size and shape to fit the character if he/she changes, when in Ravenloft he was polymorphed into a cockroach by a Hag, he became a chainmail clad cockroach who had managed to use an ESP talent on the Hag, who now thought he was the most beautiful and wonderful being in existance. It has been a year and I would have to get the game notes to get the story right but it was fun). The story line behind the Red coast is fun and has a rather nice dark feel. We started a campaign series on the Red Coast based on articals in Dragon, the Princess Arc Boxed set, and a great deal of `real world research'. We later got the Red Coast set and I am still contemplating DM sort of things to do to the various characters based on treasure picked up there. I then discovered Karamenkos was the sample area in the original D&D box set I got way back when gaming was Dungeons. I then moved the party to Karamenkos and have two separate story lines there. I like the idea of Call of Cthulu deities in `standard gaming. I and a copy of the Deities and Demigods that gave the stats for many of them (it was pulled from the market and reissued without that material as a result of copyright infrigement) I have put the Cthulu beings in Ravenloft, thou my current characters haven't yet met them. I do not have many of the resources frequently referred to on this board, like the Hollow World, and Wrath of the Immortals. I tend to do heay research to get the settings right. I have a Freehand document that shows a german half-timber structure set up so but grouping and using cut and paste you can build entire cities of half-timber structures, At some point I will get the book I used and create other templates. I also created a table that enables the DM to define an Inn with dice (this was before some of the web tools were available, at this point it is easier to use iggy's Dice and stuff) I also did another document to determine the likelyhood of highwaymen based on local economy, time of the year, population base and the type road (the same variables I used on the inn generator) The software versions of these tables were lost in a disk crash but if you are interested I'll see if I can find them, scan them in, run them through OCR and reformat them for text. It will take a while, so let me know and be patient :) My current focus is trying to get my computer set up so I can run the games from my system. I am recovering a couple of surgeries and then I'll be looking for a job, so our campaigns are on hold. I have most of the CARP programs from FUNET, and others and a couple of comericial products. Sorry, I seem to have rambled so I'll send this and shut up :) yours David I would be very appreciative of any information anyone can give me. Matthew ------------------------------ From: Andrea Stadtfeld Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:18:40 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Back again Hello folks! Some may know from previous early this year, but then I had some problems with my account, spent quite some time in the U.S. and now I managed to get an account here at home. So now you'll hear from me more often. I tried to catch up on the discussions, here a small overview: I'd like to see fluff on the list, I liked the ideas about WotI, I'm sorry to hear that now they cancelled the last bit of hope for Mystara. I liked the mails about the New Alphatian Empire and hope to bring in some more ideas, when I find the time. Cheerio, Andrea Stadtfeld I And if a doubledecker bus Dortmund, Germany I crashes into us, I to die by your side e-mail: lavista@prima.ruhr.de I is such a heavenly way to die. andrea.stadtfeld@uni-duesseldorf.de I I --The Smiths I "There's a light that never goes out" ------------------------------ From: Andrea Stadtfeld Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:18:35 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Re: At 21:07 05.05.96 -0700, Matthew Levy wrote: >I am a seasoned veteran of Mystara gaming, having been initiated to >gaming through Dungeon Module B3, The Palace of the Silver Princess, back in >1981. I have been running my own campaign in Mystara off and on since >1983 and in that time have probably DMed thousands of individual games. >I have a stock of probably 500 player and nonplayer characters (not >counting those from TSR products) in various stages of detail and a >detailed record of much of my long campaign. So you can see I have >invested a big chunk of my life in this campaign world and am overjoyed >to see that not only does it have its own mailing list, but it seems to >have a pretty good sized following. Oops, that's 13 years. I'm not such a longtime gamer, but I use Mystara as campaign setting for roughly 2 years now. > I notice a good percentage of those posting to the list are >Europeans and I wondered if perhaps Mystara has a larger following there >than here in the States. It's always seemed to me like Mystara was the >least popular TSR campaign setting and no one but me took it seriously, >except perhaps for first time DM's who liked the relative simplicity of >Basic D&D over AD&D. So I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one. That were my thoughts when I found the list. I know many people who love the realms or Dragonlance and that stuff, but no one around here has ever heard about Mystara or used it as a gaming world. But it may be possible that overall there are more Europeans here, because the setting has a very European flair. >Yesterday I checked out the FNN website (with its newsletters on Mystara Which adress? > > I am very interested to know about variants on the published >material as well; my campaign (after 13 years) is significantly different >than the official world scheme, but I still manage to integrate material >from TSR's new products. I just picked up the Mark of Amber boxed set >and highly recommend it to anyone who loves X2 and Glantri; the CD I was always looking for someone who'd tell me if it was any good, and I'd like a comparison to Castle Amber. As you seem to know most of the old modules, perhaps you could give me some tips for using Castle Amber. I think it's a very confusing module. > My campaign takes this to an extreme, with ties to the Forgotten >Realms, Spelljammer, ICE's Spacemaster Universe, Star Trek, Arthurian >Avalon, and the Cthulhu mythos. Do others like similarly overblown >gaming? If so perhaps we can exchange ideas. I'm presently thinking of >having the Ferengi attempt to take over the planet and trade with the >natives, hiring goblinoids from Thar as shock troops and arming them with >disruptors. Or not. It's all in good fun. > I don't mind gates to other fantasy campaign worlds, why not, but I would never incorporate any SF-stuff like ST or the like. The WotI has enough technical elements for me. > So how about those of you who are already on this list? Have >others been into Mystara as long as I have? What's the record for most Unfortunately not, so that I even do not own all of the Gazetteers, though the situation is gradually improving. I've just been able to lay my hand on Darokin. >and Clark Ashton Smith? How is the Red Steel set (haven't managed to >pick that one up yet)? It's quite interesting, but lacks the special feeling that I love so much about Mystara. >Is anyone interested in exchanging campaign >histories? (Think before you say yes to that one - remember I've been at >this 13 years so I won't take offense if no one wants to listen to all >that). I'd like to know something about your campaign, must be grand indeed. My campaign isn't that good yet, but I'm working on it. Andrea Stadtfeld I And if a doubledecker bus Dortmund, Germany I crashes into us, I to die by your side e-mail: lavista@prima.ruhr.de I is such a heavenly way to die. andrea.stadtfeld@uni-duesseldorf.de I I --The Smiths I "There's a light that never goes out" ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 7 May 96 22:07:42 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Curse At 01.46 07/05/96 -0400, StarHawk wrote: > > >On Mon, 6 May 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > >> Shin Chyang Yu writes: >> > >> > Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: >> > > 2) They changed the Red Curse from how it was originally described by Bruce >> > > Heard in the Princess Ark series. TSR said they did it to convert the >> > > setting to AD&D, but the whole thing doesn't convince me too much. >> > > Anyway it would be nice to have a discussion on Red Steel here on the list... >> > >> > Ok, how about start from this: What is the difference between the Red >> > Curse in Princess Ark series and the Red Steel box set. I know the one >> > thats described in the box set, but I have yet to have a chance to read >> > through all of the Princess Ark series in Dragons. >> >> The Red Curse originaly didn't give Legacies... it just killed ya, >> and made red steel as well... Don't have all the details but i'll dig them >> up for the discussion... Most of the red curse info was in Dragon #171 or >> 172 i'm not sure.... >> >Perhaps an appropriate explination for the change would be the alterations >that occured when the Herath spells failed during the Day of Dread? >Perhaps the spells didn't just contain it but also tried to supress its >effects, but wound up suppressing the benficial side effects instead of >the deterimental part. Perhaps the mages of Herath never intended this >side effect but it happened anyway. "Converting to AD&D" isn't a good >enough reason, but there are plenty of plausable explinations to cover the >change. Personally I find the legacies more interesting than just getting >the curse kills you. > May be you're right, but IIRC the Herath spells are first introduced in the new Red Steel boxed set. I haven't got all the parts of the Princess Ark series, but neither in the chapters about the Red Curse, nor in the ones about Herath this spells or mentioned. Of course we can the Princess Ark series is a logbook so we can assume that Haldemar and his crew didn't discover about these spell and how the curse really works. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 12:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! Peter Balasz writes: > > I've always played AD&D in the "Known World"setting, because back then I > found AD&D more diverse than OD&D. > I have until very recently played OD&D pretty exclusively but am attempting to make a switch to AD&D in my Mystara campaign. This is not an enormous problem because I have always experimented with different rules systems - for a brief stint I was running a game with I.C.E.'s Rolemaster in my Mystara campaign (the large variety of spellcaster classes in Rolemaster worked especially in Glantri). There are some significant differences, though, not the least of which are: 1) character classes are very different in OD&D, and this is an integral part of Mystara's culture. What happens to knights, avengers, hin masters, dervishes, foresters, mystics, thugs, and some of the weirder nonhuman races such as nagpa or pegataurs if you use AD&D (especially 2nd ed.?) Should Mystara have its own kits? Should elves be restricted to being multi-classed fighter-mages? what about treekeepers and other clan relic-based spell-users? 2) higher-level campaigns don't work so well in AD&D. What happens to 35th level fighters in an AD&D game? Should Immortals be redesigned to fit the AD&D concept of Gods? 3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, perhaps more so than any other. One thing I really like in 2nd edition is the new Player's Option books. Yes, they make character generation take longer and yes they are overpriced but they also allow room for some of the distinctive oddities of mystara and they provide a nice system for combat skill advancement that is not as high-powered as OD&D but is not as flat as old AD&D. Does anyone have any thoughts on ways to do this, or am I a heretic for suggesting giving up OD&D? ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #113 ***************************** mystara-digest Thursday, 9 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 114 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shelby Michlin Date: Tue, 07 May 96 19:28:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Curse - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > >> > > 2) They changed the Red Curse from how it was originally described by > Bruce > >> > > Heard in the Princess Ark series. TSR said they did it to convert the > >> > > setting to AD&D, but the whole thing doesn't convince me too much. > >> > > Anyway it would be nice to have a discussion on Red Steel here on the > list... > >> > > >> > Ok, how about start from this: What is the difference between the Red > >> > Curse in Princess Ark series and the Red Steel box set. I know the one > >> > thats described in the box set, but I have yet to have a chance to read > >> > through all of the Princess Ark series in Dragons. > >> > >> The Red Curse originaly didn't give Legacies... it just killed ya, > >> and made red steel as well... Don't have all the details but i'll dig them > >> up for the discussion... Most of the red curse info was in Dragon #171 or > >> 172 i'm not sure.... > >> OK, I read the Princess Ark series and liked the Red Curse as is, although I thought the area was a bit too campy (!) for my tastes, and that's saying a lot. Anyway, I don't have the boxed set. What are the legacies like, and can we get a general consensus as to whether it's worth getting the Red Steel box or not? The Dragon series seemed like enough to work with, but I wouldn't want to miss out on these legacies if they're really worth having. Anything else in there worth having? Thanks, Shelby ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 8 May 96 1:19:12 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Curse StarHawk writes: > > > Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > > > 2) They changed the Red Curse from how it was originally described by Bruce > > > > Heard in the Princess Ark series. TSR said they did it to convert the > > > > setting to AD&D, but the whole thing doesn't convince me too much. > > > > Anyway it would be nice to have a discussion on Red Steel here on the list... > > > > > > Ok, how about start from this: What is the difference between the Red > > > Curse in Princess Ark series and the Red Steel box set. I know the one > > > thats described in the box set, but I have yet to have a chance to read > > > through all of the Princess Ark series in Dragons. > > > > The Red Curse originaly didn't give Legacies... it just killed ya, > > and made red steel as well... Don't have all the details but i'll dig them > > up for the discussion... Most of the red curse info was in Dragon #171 or > > 172 i'm not sure.... > > > Perhaps an appropriate explination for the change would be the alterations > that occured when the Herath spells failed during the Day of Dread? > Perhaps the spells didn't just contain it but also tried to supress its > effects, but wound up suppressing the benficial side effects instead of > the deterimental part. Perhaps the mages of Herath never intended this > side effect but it happened anyway. "Converting to AD&D" isn't a good > enough reason, but there are plenty of plausable explinations to cover the > change. Personally I find the legacies more interesting than just getting > the curse kills you. Yeah, I like the change but not the motive behind it. I do agree with your theory though, it makes a good explanation for the changes in game terms, but doesn't explain the reason it was actualy changed.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Derek Adam Date: Tue, 7 May 96 22:21 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spell cost At 01:08 PM 4/24/96 -0400, you wrote: >Derek Adam pontificated: >> >> For Professional Spell Casters IMC, I use a rule of thumb of a minimum of >> 100gp per level of the spell for things that the caster would have no reason >> to object to, and then adjust for circumstances. Many services may not >> be available outside of large cities, and then where they are they'll tend >> to be a bit more expensive. >> > John Yu replied: >Since there are much more MU able to cast lower level spells instead of >higher lever spells, the cost of spell casting should not be linear wrt >the lever of spell. A square of the spell level will make more sense. >So a fifth level spell will cost about 25 times more than the first >level spell and a ninth level spell should be 81 times more (actually >it probably would be even more than that unless you are in someplace >that have a lot of high level mage running around). > As I said, my scale is a rule of thumb - but only that. It breaks down for high level spells, and for spells that casters are reluctant to use (often these are one-and-the-same :-). Also, spells that increase in power with the level of the caster should get more expensive with the level of the caster. It would be difficult, for example, to find someone who would be willing to cast an offensive fireball or lightning bolt. This is basically an assassination attempt, and would be very expensive - and would increase in price with the level of the caster. HOWEVER, I maintain that those same fireballs and lightning bolts cast for fireworks at a festival would cost 300gp a piece (at least, IMC). Note, also, that this linear scale is consistent with TSR canon in places where spell casters are common (ie. Glantri and Alphatia). If your campaign is magic poor, then naturally prices will be higher and could be on an exponential scale as you suggest. I do accept, however, that at some point spells become drastically more expensive. IMC, it would probably be around the point where spells enter the realm of OD&D Wizards (ie. Name level or so). In certain large cities (Thyatis, Glantri) one can still get teleported for *only* 500gp (where they have dedicated shops). Outside of there, one would have to find a wizard in a tower somewhere, interrupt their research, and convince them by gold or other means that she or he should cast for you. Without getting killed or turned into a frog, in the asking. Good luck - haggling or otherwise. As in all things, though, the rule that you do apply, whether it is my suggestion or another, should be used to maintain game balance. My method makes magic relatively common and inexpensive in large centres. Therefore they are more dangerous places to be, especially if you have enemies. This balances with the higher dangers of wilderness adventuring, so nowhere is safe! }:-> Wealthy, vengeful and/or desperate enemies can get magical aid this way. So, even wussy mundane adversaries can become great big pains in the glutes to your mighty adventurers! Woo hoo! Just another 2 denarii for the kitty, Shadow Dragon. ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:10:10 AST Subject: RCPT: [Mystara] Re: Confirmation of reading: your message - Date: 7 May 96 11:14 To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Re: Was read at 12:10, 8 May 96. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:17:46 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! On Tue, 7 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > I have until very recently played OD&D pretty exclusively but am > attempting to make a switch to AD&D in my Mystara campaign. This is not Reading your letter caused great pains to rise in my chest. There was a time that I myself considered this. The problems of conversion are the same that I faced myself. At certain points, the Ad&d game just didnt suit my goals.. > 1) character classes are very different in OD&D, and this is an integral > part of Mystara's culture. What happens to knights, avengers, hin > masters, dervishes, foresters, mystics, thugs, and some of the > weirder nonhuman races such as nagpa or pegataurs if you use AD&D > (especially 2nd ed.?) Should Mystara have its own kits? Should elves be > restricted to being multi-classed fighter-mages? what about treekeepers > and other clan relic-based spell-users? The question of classes is probably better solved in the ad&d game. The knights, dervishes, foresters, mystics, thugs, and rakes(and other special classes) could be changed into kits, i guess. The concept of kits is a good one, I think. Hin Masters may be a problem though, I never found a good solution to that one..When it comes to elves, it might be an Idea to create a new character class for these. (Remember, Elf magic is different from sorcery(mages magic), a detail TSR ignored when they converted the system. Humanoids, and other nonhumans: Humanoids handbook is weird I think. The monsters described there are so different from those in the monsterous manual. > 2) higher-level campaigns don't work so well in AD&D. What happens to > 35th level fighters in an AD&D game? Should Immortals be redesigned to > fit the AD&D concept of Gods? > > 3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well > with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their > information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, > perhaps more so than any other. Well, after thinking a great deal about this, I gave up, and converted it all to GURPS instead. I figured that if I was to switch system, I might as well switch into a system, that did not have such obvious flaws as the ad&d game (I could have said more about this, but I assume most of you have heard the anti-ad&d arguments before) > Does anyone have any thoughts on ways to do this, or am I a heretic for > suggesting giving up OD&D? yes. ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:34:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! >1) character classes are very different in OD&D, and this is an integral >part of Mystara's culture. What happens to knights, avengers, hin >masters, dervishes, foresters, mystics, thugs, and some of the >weirder nonhuman races such as nagpa or pegataurs if you use AD&D >(especially 2nd ed.?) Should Mystara have its own kits? Should elves be >restricted to being multi-classed fighter-mages? what about treekeepers >and other clan relic-based spell-users? Well, it really depends how common all of these are in your campaign. There's really not a lot of problem converting most of these classes, in fact aside from the XP points needed to gain levels (which will probably need tweeking to keep pace with the AD&D classes) you can probably use them straight. The Mystara Mostrous compendeum has AD&D stats of most of Mystara's special monsters and races. If there are class conflicts I usually just drop one (like foresters became rangers in my world), but for the most part I keep the classes the same as before. If your campaign uses a lot of these special classes, keeping the balance might be difficult so you may want to consider having a few dissappear (or at least not have many of the NPC's with wierd Mystara classes until you've gotten your party adjusted.) >2) higher-level campaigns don't work so well in AD&D. What happens to >35th level fighters in an AD&D game? Should Immortals be redesigned to >fit the AD&D concept of Gods? High levels campaigns work fine in AD&D, high level is just a different range in the two systems. According to the AD&D high level campaings book, 30th level is now the AD&D max. Of course, a 30th level AD&D fighter has enough XP to probably be around 45th-50th in OD&D (if it were possible). So a 35th level OD&D fighter using the same XP on the AD&D table would probably be around 21st. You can either use the standard conversion found in the Rules Cyclopedia (which I don't have with me so someone else will have to give the details) or better yet, you should probably start your characters over (telling your party of 30+ OD&D'ers that they're about to become 19-24th level in AD&D might make them a tad upset.) Besides, starting over will give you an excellent chance to start fresh as AD&D, so you can keep an eye on campaign balance with both systems running. As for Immortals, don't get us started again. :-) But, AD&D Gods seem to be gravitating towards the concept of OD&D Immortals anyway, I keep Immortals the exact same in my AD&D campaign as they had been in my OD&D campaign, same tables, same levels, same powers. If you feel like using PlaneScape then just pick homeplanes for the Immortals most interested in your campaign (someone else put up a great article earlier assigning Immortals to Outer Planes, it's probably on the web site if it'll help.) >3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well >with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their >information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, >perhaps more so than any other. > You can either hunt down a copy of BattleSystem, which gives AD&D rules for mass combat and convert everything, or you can just keep using the same rules. I've found that they're not too out of whack if you use AD&D stats in them. >One thing I really like in 2nd edition is the new Player's Option books. >Yes, they make character generation take longer and yes they are >overpriced but they also allow room for some of the distinctive oddities >of mystara and they provide a nice system for combat skill advancement >that is not as high-powered as OD&D but is not as flat as old AD&D. Well, to each his own, I thought the Player's Options books were terrible (in fact the only Option book by far worth money is the High Level Campaigns book) but if you like them then they'd be a good way to create all Mystara's classes in an AD&D format. You'd probably have to create new powers to match the skills detailed for all those classes, but it's certainly feasable. Personally, I run an AD&D campaign because it's rules are more detailed and broader then OD&D. I love OD&D simplicity but think it's far too munchkin From ???@??? Fri May 10 09:46:06 1996 X-UIDL: 0cb2afd66a02f377b6a4cac2b84b976f Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA23607; Fri, 10 May 1996 02:50:38 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA08506 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 11:05:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 11:05:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199605091605.LAA08506@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #114 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk for use (I've never been able to look at the Weapon Mastery tables with a straight face after a mage in my party who was a grand master with a staff (he was an imported character, it was long ago, and I was naive) was doing 20-25 points of damage a hit.) I do keep many of Mystara's classes and races, mostly unless we work it out special the PC's gravitate towards more traditional classes anyway (at least most of the ones I've seen do) so all the Mystics, Foresters and Merchants tend to be NPC's anyway so who really cares what their actual XP is? I do have a PC Mystic and I use the 1st edition Monk stats for everything except the "special powers" which I keep as a Mystic at the same Level, including the ability to strike creatures hit only by magic weapons (without it Monks get creamed by higher level monsters.). The three biggest problems I had to face were probably Demihumans (are they still a class onto themselves or can they be any class they want now?), the XP tables (since AD&D and OD&D differ so dramatically at higher levels.) and converting alignments. The first is just some decision you make when you switch and stick to (but it tends to dramatically strengthen demihumans, particularly dwarves and halflings so again you may need to watch the campaign balance.) The second is a little harder, but it's probably easiest to deal with if the party starts over (then you won't have to adjust their levels or worry about some classes being AD&D and some being OD&D.) The third, you're on your own, it depends on how comfortable you are with the AD&D alignments. Making a call between a chaotic person who's now Chaotic Good and one who's Neutral Evil takes practice. (In Mystara however, whether you're lawful or chaotic is a lot more important cosmically then if you're good or evil. So a lawful good person in mystara would have more in common with a Lawful evil person then a chaotic good person.) There's a small discussion on converting alignments in the Mystara Monstrous compendium under the Dragons description. I didn't start over in my own OD&D campaign when I made it into AD&D. The players were all in the 9-11 level range and most of them actually gained a level in the conversion (at low levels OD&D actually needs more XP sometimes then in AD&D) so they weren't too annoyed by the transformation and it wasn't too dificult. If they had been higher level (and more of them had keeps, holdings, baronhoods...etc.) I probably would have started over just to make everything easier. Usually what I do boils down to which system has the degree of difficulty I want. (For example, I use the quick and easy method of determining Dominion income from the companion set because I don't really want to get into too much detail over it.) I converted to AD&D right after WotI was over. I attributed all the new changes to the war, the magic (both mortal and Immortal) that was released during it, and slight changes in attitude of Immortals that had interests in certain areas. For example, some of the Good aligned Immortals, either wishing to help those devestated in the war or to prevent future anarchy like in the WotI started sponsoring Paladins. During the mostly magical war more mages in Glantri and Alphatia specialized (or were made to specialize) in certain areas of magic, hence Transmuters, Abjurers, Invokers were born..etc. > >Does anyone have any thoughts on ways to do this, or am I a heretic for >suggesting giving up OD&D? Also, checking out the two AD&D boxed sets that came out for Mystara might give you some better ideas on how to translate characters between the two systems. If you sit down with the original Glantri Gazeteer and the Glantri Boxed Set and look at alignments, levels, classes, magic items, powers, etc. It might give you some ideas, it'll also make converting the land and all its people into AD&D stats easier, particularly if it takes place in Glantri or Karameikos(sic). Hope this helps. - -Bob ------------------------------ From: StarHawk Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! On Tue, 7 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > Peter Balasz writes: > > > > I've always played AD&D in the "Known World"setting, because back then I > > found AD&D more diverse than OD&D. > > > > I have until very recently played OD&D pretty exclusively but am > attempting to make a switch to AD&D in my Mystara campaign. This is not > an enormous problem because I have always experimented with different > rules systems - for a brief stint I was running a game with I.C.E.'s > Rolemaster in my Mystara campaign (the large variety of spellcaster > classes in Rolemaster worked especially in Glantri). There are some > significant differences, though, not the least of which are: > > 1) character classes are very different in OD&D, and this is an integral > part of Mystara's culture. What happens to knights, avengers, hin > masters, dervishes, foresters, mystics, thugs, and some of the > weirder nonhuman races such as nagpa or pegataurs if you use AD&D > (especially 2nd ed.?) Should Mystara have its own kits? Should elves be > restricted to being multi-classed fighter-mages? what about treekeepers > and other clan relic-based spell-users? All the extra classes (knight, avenger, forester, etc.) become additional classes just like fighter, thief, cleric, etc. The non human races can be used as races, as per AD&D, or as their own "class" like in OD&D. Centaurs, Pegataurs, Satyrs, and most of the races in Gaz 10 Orcs of Thar can be opened as new races. Things like Gremlins and Nagpa are probably too powerful to give a classes abilities to so they stay the same. Elves, IMC, can be straight fighters, straight mages, fighter/mages, or foresters (the OD&D elf class). > > 2) higher-level campaigns don't work so well in AD&D. What happens to > 35th level fighters in an AD&D game? Should Immortals be redesigned to > fit the AD&D concept of Gods? A 35th level fighter is a 35th level fighter, why change it? Even TSR didn't change the NPC levels when they converted Glantri over to AD&D. Immortals are Immortals, Gods are Gods. There really isn't a need to change them. > > 3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well > with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their > information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, > perhaps more so than any other. > Hmmm, don't know. Convert to Battlesystem? Other than that I don't know. Haven't used War Machine much. ___________________________ |] |] |]ruce | ierpont ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:12:33 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Vapor-book? I just finished Dragonmage of Mystara, and found something odd on the back page, the "Other Novels you might like" list: "In Dixie McKeone's /Son of Dawn/, an orphan leaves his island home to embark on a perilous trek across the continent of Brun to return two kidnapped Shadow Elf children to their royal parents." Now, as far as I'm aware, TSR has vetoed any new Mystara (or Red Steel) novels. Is this a sign of hope, or just a misprint? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 8 May 96 21:28:38 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! Haavard Roenne Faanes writes: > > I have until very recently played OD&D pretty exclusively but am > > attempting to make a switch to AD&D in my Mystara campaign. This is not > > Reading your letter caused great pains to rise in my chest. > There was a time that I myself considered this. The problems of > conversion are the same that I faced myself. At certain points, the Ad&d > game just didnt suit my goals.. > > > 1) character classes are very different in OD&D, and this is an integral > > part of Mystara's culture. What happens to knights, avengers, hin > > masters, dervishes, foresters, mystics, thugs, and some of the > > weirder nonhuman races such as nagpa or pegataurs if you use AD&D > > (especially 2nd ed.?) Should Mystara have its own kits? Should elves be > > restricted to being multi-classed fighter-mages? what about treekeepers > > and other clan relic-based spell-users? > > The question of classes is probably better solved in the ad&d game. The > knights, dervishes, foresters, mystics, thugs, and rakes(and other > special classes) could be changed into kits, i guess. The concept of > kits is a good one, I think. Hin Masters may be a problem though, I never > found a good solution to that one..When it comes to elves, it might be an > Idea to create a new character class for these. (Remember, Elf magic is > different from sorcery(mages magic), a detail TSR ignored when they > converted the system. The Master class is not so hard... Just a Hin Druid... You could make a Hin Druid kit and say that all hin druids have to belong to that kit.. Bingo! The AD&D Hin Master! > Humanoids, and other nonhumans: Humanoids handbook is weird I think. The > monsters described there are so different from those in the monsterous > manual. I'm currently working on converting my Mystara campaign to AD&D, and i'm using a mixture of the New Races rules ( in the DMG ) and the Orcs of Thar... I've abandoned the idea of negative exp or levels below zero... But all races now only get one hit die at first level.... > > 2) higher-level campaigns don't work so well in AD&D. What happens to > > 35th level fighters in an AD&D game? Should Immortals be redesigned to > > fit the AD&D concept of Gods? > > > > 3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well > > with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their > > information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, > > perhaps more so than any other. That's not necessarily so.. I've looked at the War Machine rules and i think they're the best fantasy mass combat system around ( way better than BATTLESYSTEM, not everybody can buy thousands of dollars of miniatures ). It really wouldn't be hard at all to convert it too AD&D... > > Does anyone have any thoughts on ways to do this, or am I a heretic for > > suggesting giving up OD&D? > yes. > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 23:17:47 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vapor-book? (fwd) Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:48:15 -0400 From: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vapor-book? Son Of Dawn came out last May in our First Quest line ... it is, however (AFAIK) firmly set in the world of Mystara. - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 12:26:14 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! > >3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well > >with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their > >information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, > >perhaps more so than any other. > > > > You can either hunt down a copy of BattleSystem, which gives AD&D rules for > mass combat and convert everything, or you can just keep using the same > rules. I've found that they're not too out of whack if you use AD&D stats > in them. Problem here is that War Machine is meant for paper and map, campaign-style battles and Battlesystem is miniature-oriented. A better substitute may be found in the BirthRight campaign set. > >One thing I really like in 2nd edition is the new Player's Option books. > >Yes, they make character generation take longer and yes they are > >overpriced but they also allow room for some of the distinctive oddities > >of mystara and they provide a nice system for combat skill advancement > >that is not as high-powered as OD&D but is not as flat as old AD&D. > > Well, to each his own, I thought the Player's Options books were terrible > (in fact the only Option book by far worth money is the High Level > Campaigns book) but if you like them then they'd be a good way to create > all Mystara's classes in an AD&D format. You'd probably have to create new > powers to match the skills detailed for all those classes, but it's > certainly feasable. I don't like the Player's Options - a good step in the right direction, but a little too clingy to the old way of thinking. I use the Ars Magica Virtues and Flaws to flesh out characters - more social stuff and less chart-bashing. > Personally, I run an AD&D campaign because it's rules are more detailed and > broader then OD&D. I love OD&D simplicity but think it's far too munchkin > for use (I've never been able to look at the Weapon Mastery tables with a > straight face after a mage in my party who was a grand master with a staff > (he was an imported character, it was long ago, and I was naive) was doing > 20-25 points of damage a hit.) Completre 180 from me. OD&D and Ars Magica/Primal Order for me. I have a 17th level mage in my game with expert mastery in bow and sword and it doesn't really upset the game (the key is to remember that if the PCs can have it, so can their opponents). > I do keep many of Mystara's classes and races, mostly unless we work it out > special the PC's gravitate towards more traditional classes anyway (at > least most of the ones I've seen do) so all the Mystics, Foresters and > Merchants tend to be NPC's anyway so who really cares what their actual XP > is? I do have a PC Mystic and I use the 1st edition Monk stats for > everything except the "special powers" which I keep as a Mystic at the same > Level, including the ability to strike creatures hit only by magic weapons > (without it Monks get creamed by higher level monsters.). Most of my stuff stays pretty standard (at least, superficially - see the mage with bow and sword). My most "out there" character is a dryad. > -Bob HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #114 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 10 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 115 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: toron@tripnet.se (Daniel Niklasson) Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 19:19:38 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Red Steel... I have just bought the Red Steel box and I think it=B4s rilly good...I like the Legacies. I also have the Ad&d Mystara setting.=20 I just have two questions;=20 1: does Red Steel(the metal) work the same all over Mystara as it do on the Savage Coast?? 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? Daniel Niklasson toron@tripnet.se=20 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 9 May 96 19:38:10 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] List of all spells I'm starting to make a complete list of all spell that I can found in all the OD&D supplements I have (RC, GAZ, PC, COM, HW...). I've in mind to divide the list in various sections according to the kind of magic (Clerical, Magical, Treekepers, Fairies, Shadow Elves Shamans, Atruaghin Shamans, Ethengar Shamans, Darokin Merchants, Minrothad Merchants...). If someone has already done something like this or has to give some advice please e-mail me. BTW: it will take me much time to do this list, so don't expect to see it soon. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: "D.J. Sahlas" Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! On Thu, 9 May 1996, Nightshade wrote: > > >3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well > > >with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their > > >information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, > > >perhaps more so than any other. > > > > You can either hunt down a copy of BattleSystem, which gives AD&D rules for > > mass combat and convert everything, or you can just keep using the same > > rules. I've found that they're not too out of whack if you use AD&D stats > > in them. Having DMed X10 as it was meant to be run, these are my comments on the two systems: War Machine rules were supposed to be used for the big battles (that the PCs were not involved in) and BattleSystem for the other battles (that the PCs were involved in). Actually, all the battles could be fought using one system or the other, the author of the module simply wanted to create a 3-tiered campaign: Role Playing, PC battles, continental battles. We were not war games fans, and BattleSystem was a major pain to run. We needed to clear a 4' by 8' playing surface, become familiar with a whole new set of rules (the rulebook was not very user-friendly) and in general just interrupt the flow of the campaign to fight these big battles. In theory it sounds really neat, but in practice it falls short of the mark. Much more gratifying were the war machine battles. 15 or 20 minutes of rolling dice and calculating figures and an entire battle had been fought! Our imaginations kicked in during the dice-rolling, etc. just as in normal role-playing, and the entire process flowed much better. Jim Sahlas ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 14:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! Nightshade pontificated: > > > >3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well > > >with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their > > >information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, > > >perhaps more so than any other. > > > > > > > You can either hunt down a copy of BattleSystem, which gives AD&D rules for > > mass combat and convert everything, or you can just keep using the same > > rules. I've found that they're not too out of whack if you use AD&D stats > > in them. > > Problem here is that War Machine is meant for paper and map, > campaign-style battles and Battlesystem is miniature-oriented. A > better substitute may be found in the BirthRight campaign set. > The mass combat system in BirthRight is not that great. Very simplistic and the basic unit is 200 men company. The battle is fought on a 5-by-5 grid gameboard. It is more like a Parker Brother game for children than the War Machine combat system. Also, it is really annoying that the rule book never tells you how to convert a company of soldier from their AD&D stat into the mass combat stat, so the only info you have on the strength of a nations army comes from the War Cards probided in the box set, which is very incomplete. However, I have yet to actually play a game using the BirthRight mass combat system, so I can't comment on how well it plays. The reason I started looking into BirthRight system is because the individual book describing each country seems to be similar to the old gazeteers. However, those book never goes into nearly as much detail when compared to the gazeteers. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 15:00:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! At 12:26 PM 5/9/96 AST, Nightshade wrote: >> >3) a big problem in my campaign - the War Machine rules don't fit so well >> >with AD&D. one of the great things about Mystara supplements is their >> >information on military units - Mystara is after all a war-heavy world, >> >perhaps more so than any other. >> > >> >> You can either hunt down a copy of BattleSystem, which gives AD&D rules for >> mass combat and convert everything, or you can just keep using the same >> rules. I've found that they're not too out of whack if you use AD&D stats >> in them. > > Problem here is that War Machine is meant for paper and map, >campaign-style battles and Battlesystem is miniature-oriented. A >better substitute may be found in the BirthRight campaign set. I had asked this before but got no response, but seeing as you mentioned it, I'll ask again: Do you (or does anybody else) integrate Birthright concepts into Mystara, or have you thought about doing so? I'd like to know other people's thoughts or actions on the matter. Thanks :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 14:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... On Thu, 9 May 1996, Daniel Niklasson wrote: > I have just bought the Red Steel box and I think it=B4s rilly good...I li= ke > the Legacies. I also have the Ad&d Mystara setting.=20 >=20 > I just have two questions;=20 >=20 > 1: does Red Steel(the metal) work the same all over Mystara as it do on t= he > Savage Coast?? >=20 > 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? >=20 >=20 > Daniel Niklasson > toron@tripnet.se=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 =09Don't know about the red steel question, but I've wondered about=20 Psionics myself and in fact it has become a big issue in my campaign. I=20 don't know if TSR intends to throw psionics into the AD&D revamp of the=20 Gazeteers but I certainly hope they don't do it in some retroactive=20 across the board way (like they tend to do) where psionics suddenly,=20 *poof*, appear around the world. Lack of psionics is a distinctive=20 feature of Mystara and at any rate a gradual introduction would be better. One thing I've noticed that's not so surprising is that since there are=20 no psionics, there are no psionic monsters. However, Mystara DOES have=20 the Kopru, who are quite distinctive to the world. The kopru essentially=20 have all the powers of mind flayers in OD&D terms and are obviously a=20 related species, but they exist only in aquatic environments. (And by=20 the way, I prefer the kopru as powerful villains as they were in X1 and=20 not as just another wacky PC race as in the Sea People supplement). Now,= =20 I tend to think that there's nothing wrong with establishing connections=20 between otherwise separated TSR or other fantasy worlds, since there=20 seems to me to be no reason why powerful mortal or immortal magic could=20 not accomplish this. Thus if various races are the same or similar on=20 different planets, it is because they are from a common source originally. Kopru are related to Illithids, so they must: A) be the ancestor of Illithids, evolving in the future into standard=20 Mind Flayers and spreading out through the other AD&D worlds, who thus=20 are FAR IN THE FUTURE of Mystara. This actually makes a lot of sense,=20 since Mystara=3DBlackmoor and in the real world Blackmoor/Thonia far=20 predated Greyhawk or any other gaming world (except of course literary=20 settings like Middle Earth, Newhon, etc.). I like this explanation also=20 because it means that Mystara humanoids have simply not evolved psionic=20 powers yet, but may be beginning to. OR, B) They are parallel offshoots, who had a common ancestor but exist at=20 the same time. This makes a lot of sense if Mystara is parallel to other= =20 worlds like Faerun or Oerth. However, it leaves unexplained why Mystara=20 humans don't have psionics - unless of course psionic powers in humans=20 were the RESULT of the existence of standard mind flayers' proximity to=20 humans .... hmmm ... OR, C) Illithids are the ancestors of Kopru, meaning perhaps that Mystara=20 humans have evolved from psionic to non-psionic, and the lack of psionic=20 humans has reduced the richest food source for illithids, whose range=20 became restricted until they lived solely under water. In my campaign, I went with explanation A, combined with the last part of= =20 B - the Kopru are a limited but powerful race, with ties to the Old Ones,= =20 who have manipulated the humans of the Thanegioth isles for a long time=20 but who are few in number. They have been specially breeding psionic=20 humans at their base on the Isle of Dread (restored after being=20 destroyed by adventurers in X1). Also, psionics have been coming in=20 from other planes after finding out that psionicism was possible but=20 rare there. One of these (an NPC Gold Dragon with psionic powers) has set up a base=20 at a Castle on the seashore south of Landfall, protected by the Heldannic= =20 knights, where he trains good-aligned psionics to fight against the=20 Kopru - trained evil psionics. I also have a few of the Gith (both=20 Yanki and Zerai) operating on Mystara, having time-travelled back to=20 visit the birth planet of the Illithids who enslaved them ... =20 Psionics work very well on a small scale - I have two 1st level=20 psionicists (twin brothers, trained by the Gold Dragon) who travel about=20 disguised as tailors and are not unbalancing the campaign because I have=20 them terrified that if the Alphatians find out about them and their=20 powers they will be tortured questioned and killed.=20 Has anyone else tried out Mystara psionics? =20 ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 9 May 96 16:09 PDT Subject: [Mystara]addition to weapon mastery Oh, when I mentioned in my weapon mastery system, you get +1 hit per level, this is potential damage I meant, not automatic damage. I think it would be stupid to have a 10th level weapon master (if you even allowed mastery that high) that could do 1DX+10 damage per attack. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 9 May 96 16:14 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vapor-book? At 12:12 PM 5/8/96 -0400, you wrote: >I just finished Dragonmage of Mystara, and found something odd on the >back page, the "Other Novels you might like" list: > >"In Dixie McKeone's /Son of Dawn/, an orphan leaves his island home to >embark on a perilous trek across the continent of Brun to return two >kidnapped Shadow Elf children to their royal parents." > By the way, do you, or anyone else know which "First Quest" books are on Mystara and which are not? "First Quest" sounds so... generic, I wish they would have separated the Mystara ones and called them a Mystara series instead of lumping it in with that beginner's stuff. Geez! Mystara had 36th and immortal level adventures, so I guess that means it's a beginner's world, isn't it! I suppose TSR thinks so. Does anyone know if the "First Quest" boxed set is on Mystara, and if it is, is it good? David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 9 May 96 16:10 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara]mastery At 10:33 AM 5/2/96 +0200, you wrote: >Hi > In my campaign there's an additional rule. >I think that only few people can attain a great master level, but with >the normal rules everybody with time and experience can become >a great master. >I stated that if a person tried to improve his skill but failed couldn't > improve his skill in that weapon any more. >In an older campaign my PCs (24th level) decided they wanted to became >great masters , one of them was a cleric an had the wish spell. >He teleported the nearest master to the party's castle , covered him with >his gold and said: >"We want to became great masters" >All the poetry of great fighting ability, earned only by special >characters disappeared. > (Do you mean grand master?) I don't think you need restrictions for it. The way it works is that few people would get it anyway, because of the great amount of time, money, intelligence, and perseverence needed to even get that far. ------------------------------ From: StarHawk Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 19:40:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells On Thu, 9 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > I'm starting to make a complete list of all spell that I can found in all > the OD&D supplements I have (RC, GAZ, PC, COM, HW...). > I've in mind to divide the list in various sections according to the kind of > magic (Clerical, Magical, Treekepers, Fairies, Shadow Elves Shamans, > Atruaghin Shamans, Ethengar Shamans, Darokin Merchants, Minrothad Merchants...). > If someone has already done something like this or has to give some advice > please e-mail me. > BTW: it will take me much time to do this list, so don't expect to see it soon. if possible arranging them by name would be helpful, but with an entry saying what kind of magic it is. even better would be some kind of database format. _____________ |] |] |]ruce | ierpont ------------------------------ From: David Keyser Date: Thu, 9 May 96 18:51:58 PDT Subject: [Mystara] First Quest Books >>"In Dixie McKeone's /Son of Dawn/, an orphan leaves his island home to >>embark on a perilous trek across the continent of Brun to return two >>kidnapped Shadow Elf children to their royal parents." >> >By the way, do you, or anyone else know which "First Quest" books are on >Mystara and which are not? "First Quest" sounds so... generic, I wish they >would have separated the Mystara ones and called them a Mystara series >instead of lumping it in with that beginner's stuff. Geez! Mystara had >36th and immortal level adventures, so I guess that means it's a beginner's >world, isn't it! I suppose TSR thinks so. Does anyone know if the "First >Quest" boxed set is on Mystara, and if it is, is it good? There were 6 First Quest books, but only two are set in Mystara, the other 4 are generic worlds. They are written for the reading level of young teenagers though. In my opinion, Son of Dawn is good as campaign background and can be adapted into a full length adventure for PCs with some work. It is set in 1010 AC. It is definitely worth getting if you are a Mystara collector. Rogues to Riches is the other Mystara novel, and it is set in Norworld. It is next to useless for campaign background, only very scanty details of the rulers of the three main cities are provided, and a few details of Heldannic Knights (as good guys). There is also the Endless Quest series of books, I know at least one of those was set in Ravenloft, but I don't know of any that were set in Mystara. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 9 May 96 23:37:58 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... Daniel Niklasson writes: > I just have two questions;=20 > > 1: does Red Steel(the metal) work the same all over Mystara as it do on the > Savage Coast?? Yes. The Huleans love it. > 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? No. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:47:47 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Mystara] Psionics (was: Re:Red Steel...) On Thu, 9 May 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Daniel Niklasson writes: > > 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? > > No. The reason is ofcourse that there were no rules for psionics in the OD&D game. When Bruce Heard was asked if there were any plans to incorporate psionics into D&D he said that it went against the policy about D&D being the simple game... But, there is no reason why you cant incorporate Psionics into your campaign. Red Steel Hints at the existence of posionicists, by mentioning that certain kits can be taken by psionicicts. If anyone were to develope psionics it would probably be those mentioned as mystics. Thothia might have psionicists. In any case they will be rare. Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Henrik Nordhus Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:55:23 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells At 19:38 09.05.96 +0200, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >I'm starting to make a complete list of all spell that I can found in all >the OD&D supplements I have (RC, GAZ, PC, COM, HW...). >I've in mind to divide the list in various sections according to the kind of >magic (Clerical, Magical, Treekepers, Fairies, Shadow Elves Shamans, >Atruaghin Shamans, Ethengar Shamans, Darokin Merchants, Minrothad Merchants...). >If someone has already done something like this or has to give some advice >please e-mail me. >BTW: it will take me much time to do this list, so don't expect to see it soon. Would you also consider converting these spells to AD&D? Schools, spheres and similar considerations would be (in some cases) a good topic for discussion. (As per the RC guide of conversion?). I'm one of the many who've started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this list is the lack of total off-subject crap! On the other hand, I'm more than busy enough doing that on the other list I subscribe to, and the info here is quite useful. - ----------------------------------------------- Henrik Nordhus __ Hausmannsgt. 34 )^^( 0182 Oslo ^^ NORWAY IF THIS MESSAGE Phone : 22207746 WAS MEANINGFUL : DESTROY IT AT ONCE! E-Mail : Henrik.nordhus@hfstud.uio.no - ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:52:34 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! > I had asked this before but got no response, but seeing as you > mentioned it, I'll ask again: Do you (or does anybody else) integrate > Birthright concepts into Mystara, or have you thought about doing so? I'd > like to know other people's thoughts or actions on the matter. I don't. The BirthRight remark was speculation on my part. I haven't bought TSR product since Champions of Mystara. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:51:16 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! > > Problem here is that War Machine is meant for paper and map, > > campaign-style battles and Battlesystem is miniature-oriented. A > > better substitute may be found in the BirthRight campaign set. > > > The mass combat system in BirthRight is not that great. Very > simplistic and the basic unit is 200 men company. The battle is fought > on a 5-by-5 grid gameboard. It is more like a Parker Brother game for > children than the War Machine combat system. Oh, okay. I thought it was more involved than that. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara! > > > > Problem here is that War Machine is meant for paper and map, > > > campaign-style battles and Battlesystem is miniature-oriented. A > > > better substitute may be found in the BirthRight campaign set. I don't suppose anyone would know whether Fantasy General (a demo available at Happy Puppy) uses War Machine? Fantasy General is a D&D-type war game which, from its description, seems like it might be the _Master of the Desert Nomads_ campaign. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 10 May 96 20:51:12 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells At 14.55 10/05/96 +0100, you wrote: >At 19:38 09.05.96 +0200, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>I'm starting to make a complete list of all spell that I can found in all >>the OD&D supplements I have (RC, GAZ, PC, COM, HW...). >>I've in mind to divide the list in various sections according to the kind of >>magic (Clerical, Magical, Treekepers, Fairies, Shadow Elves Shamans, >>Atruaghin Shamans, Ethengar Shamans, Darokin Merchants, Minrothad >Merchants...). >>If someone has already done something like this or has to give some advice >>please e-mail me. >>BTW: it will take me much time to do this list, so don't expect to see it soon. > >Would you also consider converting these spells to AD&D? Schools, spheres >and similar considerations would be (in some cases) a good topic for >discussion. (As per the RC guide of conversion?). I use OD&D and, altough I regularly play in an AD&D campaign, I'm not so practical with AD&D spell system, so for the time going my answer is: no. :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #115 ***************************** From ???@??? Thu May 16 09:51:53 1996 X-UIDL: ab7332a82579230467a053bf40518f1b Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA08852; Tue, 14 May 1996 05:57:25 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA11963 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 14:34:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:34:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199605131934.OAA11963@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #116 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, 13 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 116 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] OD&D Weapon Mastery > started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is > Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got > the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this I'm not sure Weapon Mastery should be converted, since the Mystara setting featured monsters (at the "high-levels") with HD of 20+ regularly. I think in the _Creature Crucible_ there were monsters of 50+ HD, too. Juggernauts and Leviathans and Bodendrukers, for instance. Weapon Mastery lets you have heinous damage at high mastery levels, perhaps precisely to offset the incredible amount of HP creatures in the setting have. But this is at the same time perhaps contrary to AD&D's push for lower power. However, if you still want Weapon Mastery, you could simply make up some scheme of your own. It might go like this : 1) each mastery level = 1 slot, and adds +1d1, +1d2, or +1d4 damage to small, medium, and large weapons. Therefore, a 1d4/1d3 Medium weapon becomes 1d6/1d4+1 at Skilled, 1d8/1d6+1 at Expert. At Master and Grandmaster level, add +1, +2, and +4 respectively. Therefore the 1d4/1d3 weapon is 1d8+2/1d6+3 at Master, 1d8+4/1d6+5 at GrandMaster. 2) each weapon "special ability", including AC benefits and ability to throw, requires 1 proficiency slot; these increase with master level increase, though. Therefore, 5 slots could give you GrandMaster Short Sword, and you can throw it to Grand Master ranges as well. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Mystara comments. Thanks to everyone who posted a reply to my comments on conversion to AD&D - I will definitely consider them though of course there was a variety of viewpoints offered. Two things: First of all, I agree with those who say War Machine is superior to Battlesystem - miniatures wargaming is simply an obsolete pain in the ass; if you are a miniatures fan, my apologies, but it's just not for me. War machine is nice in that it is very detailed in terms of post-battle damage, etc., but still retains flexibility and playability during battles - the tactics rules are quite good. However, as a big fan of Avalon Hill- style wargames I think it still leaves a lot to be desired. It requires too much paperwork for too little realism. Does anybody know about the Fantasy Empires computer game? is it the same as war machine computerized, or is it something different? I would love to see a strategic-level wargame system for Mystara that is more playable than war machine with less paperwork but which also accounts for such things as supply lines, terrain and maneuver in a more realistic manner - my experience running X10 was that it was a sequence of disorganized battles which kept me keeping tons of paperwork and killed an inordinate number of soldiers on both sides (even considering the nature of the armies involved). Even cooler would be wargaming rules to account for the strategic-level effects of teleportation, airships, gnomish air forces, large-scale sorcery, juggernauts, undead armies, etc. in some easy way. of course i'm complaining when i ought to come up with such a thing myself -no time. the ship combat rules from the Ierendi gazeteer were almost brilliant, however - should go back and fish those out. well anyway i will quit babbling now. M@2 ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 19:45:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara comments. At 01:13 PM 5/10/96 -0700, you wrote: >Does anybody know about the Fantasy >Empires computer game? is it the same as war machine computerized, or is >it something different? I have it. It's a cool game, but it's not War Machine computerized. The game just BEGS to be played via email, though, and I really wish it were adapted for that. As a matter of fact, I've thought that it might be possible for various people who have the game to play by emailing each other the save game file and taking their turns. I don't see why this wouldn't work except you have to trust everyone to play their turn and stick with it rather than doing it over and over until they like the results. The only drawback is that you wouldn't be able to use the real time tactical combat mode when figting human vs. human player since you'd have to be on the same computer, but small loss. Not that I have the time now, or anything. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Fri, 10 May 96 21:44:43 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Fantasy Empires Computer Game - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Friday, 10-May-96 07:45 PM > From: David 'Azure' Leland \ Internet: (azure@cs.oberlin.edu) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara comments. > At 01:13 PM 5/10/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Does anybody know about the Fantasy > >Empires computer game? is it the same as war machine computerized, or is > >it something different? > I have it. It's a cool game, but it's not War Machine computerized. - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Well, I have this game. I lusted after it when it came out, saw it at a friend's, borrowed it for a very short time, and eventually got it in a multi-game bargain pack and played it for a little while. While I wanted to like it very much, for the sake of Mystara (which I dearly love), IMO the game has a poor interface of bouncing around from place to place every turn, but without being prompted properly to deal with the things that need dealing with, or having automated settings to deal with tedium. It gets very boring very quickly, much like Stronghold (another game I wanted to like) but not as bad. Games like Civilization and Master of Magic have come up with systems that are user-friendly. Unfortunately Fantasy Empires isn't in their league. Also, I don't really see a way to use the game in a paper-and-pencil rpg as any kind of substitute for a mass- combat system, which seems to have been a part of the original question. Sorry I don't have better news for you. Shelby Michlin ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sat, 11 May 96 0:17:30 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells Henrik Nordhus writes: > started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is > Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got > the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this Actually, that's something that I'm currently working on... I'm adapting OD&D weapon mastery ( it's far superior to the AD&D weapon system ) for use with my AD&D Mystara campaign, if everyone would like i could post it when i'm done.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 20:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Fluff Poll Results... (yet again) Sorry for being a bit late on this. The vote for the digest on fluff is now closed. Below is the original message I sent when I closed it last time. The only change is this paragraph, and the numbers. Mystarans, Well, the votes are in and it looks like Mystara fiction will be allowed on the list. The results were... Yes -> 17 No -> 8 With that said, let me explain a few things on the subject... 1) There are a variety of technical reasons why I did not allow fluff on the list. Because of this, the allowance of fluff is a probationary thing. If any major problems are encountered, this decision is repealed. Most of this technical stuff revolves around disk space and the digest. 2) Some people talked about a seperate list for Mystara fluff. In all, I think that is unnecessarty. I think it is unlikely we will see a sudden deluse of fiction. This list is already dead at the moment; if people don't have the time (or intrest) to discuss Mystara, they probably won't have time to write fiction. Plus, I would not be able to start such a list, even if it was called for. As an Illuminati Online subscriber I am allowed one mailing list. To have more would cost me extra money. 3) As I said, I don't think too much fluff will be a problem. But if it happens, I will have to lay out more rules. At the moment, though, all I have is a simple request: If someone has just posted fluff, please wait a day or two to post yours. This prevents individual digests from becoming bloated. Plus, the occasional story is more likely to get read than one that is part of many. 4) Sorry, but fluff will not be saved and indexed like the other game and source material that gets put here. This is due to space considerations. It would be cool, though, if someone volunteered to archive the stories. 5) Please, direct all personal opinions on posted fiction to the author, not the list. On the other hand, if you want to discuss how a piece of fiction applies to Mystara or xD&D, that's fine. 6) Becasue this is a Mystara list, only Mystara fiction will be allowed (I proabaly didn't even need to say that, but you never know). 7) Not a rule, but a bit of advice from an English major who has taken an endless stream of creative writing classes: Well written, well formatted fiction is a lot more likely to get read. I can't speak for all, but a peice of fiction without any breaks (i.e paragraphs) is likely to result in the delete key. Two spaces after a period makes a big difference over one. Any peice of fiction worth reading is worth spending some proofreading time on. 8) I will not put an arbitrary limit on size, yet, but I will mention that the list has a built in line limit. Anything after a certain number of lines is truncated. After a while I will look through the config file and find the number, then post it. 9) When work and weekend activities (i.e gaming) do not infringe on my time I will change the FAQ to represent all this. Well, that's it on fluff. Comments are, as always, welcome. In closing, I would like to thank all those who included words of appreciation for my efforts on this list. They really meant a lot. In turn, I would like to extend the same gratitude to those who make this list worth working on. This list is is a bit dead at the moment, but it hasn't always been, and hopefully won't always be. Some have called Mystara a dead world. I disagree. Mystara will always be a living, vibrant place as long as we keep it alive in our minds, and on this list. Later... van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sat, 11 May 96 0:23:23 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Weapon Mastery Simon Seah writes: > > > started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is > > Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got > > the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this > > I'm not sure Weapon Mastery should be converted, since the Mystara > setting featured monsters (at the "high-levels") with HD of 20+ > regularly. I think in the _Creature Crucible_ there were monsters of 50+ > HD, too. Juggernauts and Leviathans and Bodendrukers, for instance. > Weapon Mastery lets you have heinous damage at high mastery levels, > perhaps precisely to offset the incredible amount of HP creatures in the > setting have. But this is at the same time perhaps contrary to AD&D's > push for lower power. You're forgetting that playing AD&D in the Mystara setting, those monsters will still be there... And AD&D monsters seem on average to be MORE powerful than OD&D monsters... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca From ???@??? Thu May 16 09:51:53 1996 X-UIDL: ab7332a82579230467a053bf40518f1b Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA08852; Tue, 14 May 1996 05:57:25 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA11963 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 14:34:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:34:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199605131934.OAA11963@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #116 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: StarHawk Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 02:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... On Thu, 9 May 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Daniel Niklasson writes: > > > I just have two questions;=20 > > > > 1: does Red Steel(the metal) work the same all over Mystara as it do on the > > Savage Coast?? > > Yes. The Huleans love it. > > > 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? > > No. > Wrong. The Most Serene Divinarchy of Yavdlom (see Champions of Mystara) has psionically capable citizens, though no rules were given to tell what kind of powers or anything. This is an opportunity to introduce psionics to Mystara, or it can be left as an isolated case due to some abberation in the area (I think one is vaguely alluded to in the Boxed Set). _________________ |] |] |]ruce | ierpont ------------------------------ From: Jason Zavoda Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 09:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells On Sat, 11 May 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Actually, that's something that I'm currently working on... I'm > adapting OD&D weapon mastery ( it's far superior to the AD&D weapon system > ) for use with my AD&D Mystara campaign, if everyone would like i could > post it when i'm done.... > I'd certainly like to see a copy. I have been adapting mystara to AD&D myself bit by bit over the years as I integrate the Various modules and GAZ's into my campaign world, which is primarily 1st ed AD&D. I have used some of the 2nd ed rules, primarily monster stats and ideas from the complete series, fighters,wizards,etc. But I have also thrown in many house rules as well. Jason Zavoda > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" > Carleton U. > Computer Science, Software > Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca > cq793@freenet.carleton.ca > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 09:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Weapon Mastery > > setting have. But this is at the same time perhaps contrary to AD&D's > > push for lower power. > > You're forgetting that playing AD&D in the Mystara setting, those > monsters will still be there... And AD&D monsters seem on average to be > MORE powerful than OD&D monsters... > Yes, but in AD&D, the focus may have shifted from "you can defeat X" to "you're not supposed to be able to defeat X" In D&D, the "ultimate" goal is to become an Immortal. The intended level of power is way higher, especially when you consider some of the tasks required toward immortality. In AD&D, they dropped the unlimited level advancement and pretty much plummetted it to L20. Even in 1st ed where you had unlimited level advancement, only mages had the real good stuff, what with L3 and L8 fireballs at 1d/L, unlimited dice. Fighters topped their number of attacks against creatures of > 1 HD at about 2/1; even with weapon proficiency, you maybe got 3/1. In Mystara, mages topped spells at 20d fireballs and the like, but that's still plenty. Fighters got 4 attacks if their adjusted HR required was 2, but even then, you could get GM type damage which makes each hit the equivalent of 2x-4x that of what you got at Basic level of mastery. The "ultimate goal" of OD&D and the Mystara setting was different, hence Weapon Mastery was introduced. Consider that in the days of the boxed sets, ultra-huge insanely tough monsters were generally in the Masters Set (NightShades, whopping big Elementals, and the like), and so was Weapon Mastery. Later, of course, they shoved it all into the Cyclopaedia, but that was, IMO, a prelude to dumping the whole system and a last-gasp to get money through one final convenience for OD&D players. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 10:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... > > > > > 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? > > > > No. > > > Wrong. The Most Serene Divinarchy of Yavdlom (see Champions of Mystara) > has psionically capable citizens, though no rules were given to tell what > kind of powers or anything. This is an opportunity to introduce psionics > to Mystara, or it can be left as an isolated case due to some abberation > in the area (I think one is vaguely alluded to in the Boxed Set). > > _________________ Just wanted to throw in two bits (again): I wasn't aware of the reference to psionics in Yavdlom, but that fact actually fits very well with my (admittedly bizarre) pet theory about psionics and the Kopru - since Yavdlom is nearer to the Thanegioth aquatic flayers than any other major human civilization. I don't know if my earlier post went unanswered because it was just plain too absurd to take (fair enough); but if anyone is interested I am working on supplementary guidelines/rules for dealing with psionicists in Mystara, the Kopru, and neglected elements of Thanegioth and Yavi culture. I might put it into a brief module/scenario form - if anyone is interested I would love criticisms/comments and I'm of course willing to offer up the finished module to anyone who wants to testrun it ... M@2 ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 12 May 96 0:06:10 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... StarHawk writes: > > > > On Thu, 9 May 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > > > Daniel Niklasson writes: > > > > > I just have two questions;=20 > > > > > > 1: does Red Steel(the metal) work the same all over Mystara as it do on the > > > Savage Coast?? > > > > Yes. The Huleans love it. > > > > > 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? > > > > No. > > > Wrong. The Most Serene Divinarchy of Yavdlom (see Champions of Mystara) > has psionically capable citizens, though no rules were given to tell what > kind of powers or anything. This is an opportunity to introduce psionics > to Mystara, or it can be left as an isolated case due to some abberation > in the area (I think one is vaguely alluded to in the Boxed Set). Well, if you want to call it psionics, their branch of psionics comes from a sphere of time artifact, a time traveliing device, that's half functional. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 12 May 96 1:58:11 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells Jason Zavoda writes: > > > > On Sat, 11 May 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > > > Actually, that's something that I'm currently working on... I'm > > adapting OD&D weapon mastery ( it's far superior to the AD&D weapon system > > ) for use with my AD&D Mystara campaign, if everyone would like i could > > post it when i'm done.... > > > I'd certainly like to see a copy. I have been adapting mystara to > AD&D myself bit by bit over the years as I integrate the Various modules > and GAZ's into my campaign world, which is primarily 1st ed AD&D. > I have used some of the 2nd ed rules, primarily monster stats > and ideas from the complete series, fighters,wizards,etc. But I have also > thrown in many house rules as well. > Ok, well, remind me every once and awhile and i'll be sure to post it when i get it done ( probably by the end of the month ). - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 12 May 96 21:58:01 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara comments. At 13.13 10/05/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Thanks to everyone who posted a reply to my comments on conversion to >AD&D - I will definitely consider them though of course there was a >variety of viewpoints offered. Two things: First of all, I agree with >those who say War Machine is superior to Battlesystem - miniatures >wargaming is simply an obsolete pain in the ass; if you are a miniatures >fan, my apologies, but it's just not for me. War machine is nice in that >it is very detailed in terms of post-battle damage, etc., but still >retains flexibility and playability during battles - the tactics rules >are quite good. However, as a big fan of Avalon Hill- style wargames I >think it still leaves a lot to be desired. It requires too much >paperwork for too little realism. Does anybody know about the Fantasy >Empires computer game? is it the same as war machine computerized, or is >it something different? >I would love to see a strategic-level wargame system for Mystara that is >more playable than war machine with less paperwork but which also >accounts for such things as supply lines, terrain and maneuver in a more >realistic manner - my experience running X10 was that it was a sequence >of disorganized battles which kept me keeping tons of paperwork and >killed an inordinate number of soldiers on both sides (even considering >the nature of the armies involved). Even cooler would be wargaming >rules to account for the strategic-level effects of teleportation, >airships, gnomish air forces, large-scale sorcery, juggernauts, undead >armies, etc. in some easy way. of course i'm complaining when i ought >to come up with such a thing myself -no time. the ship combat rules >from the Ierendi gazeteer were almost brilliant, however - should go back >and fish those out. > Other interesting rules for combat at sea are given in the Minrothad Gaz (rules for piratical combat) and Dawn of the Emperors (the Sea Machine). As I see that there are several fans of wargames and mass combat in Mystara I wonder if anyone would like to write down something like the "Armies of the World" section of PWA for years AC1012 and AC1013. It would be nice. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:04:12 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] 2 Projects and another thing I haven't really been posting lately, but I've been reading and enjoying everything. :) I'm just starting work on two Mystara-based projects; an 'alternate timeline' and a piece of fluff. The timeline will be based on the premise that some intrepid adventurers from the year 1025AC (when enough Rads have been drained so that the Day of Dread becomes the Week of Dread) pop back a few thousand years and keep the Beagle's engine core from becoming the Nucleus of the Spheres. Blackmoor's still stolen enough tech to bootstrap itself into the Rain of Fire, though, so things won't be /too/ different... ;) Any suggestions or comments welcome; I believe I'll have the main part done and posted by the end of the month. The fluff is based on the ever-popular premise 'Earthling gets transported to magical world'. The hero, coincidentally named Daniel :) gets caught by one of Etienne d'Ambreville's relative's miscast spells and pops up in Glantri. Possibly a serial, it's working its way along... PS: Obligatory miscellaneous Mystara information: The Mystaran Solar System, according to the Immortals Rules, updated with Spelljammer information: - -name (size)- -Diameter- -Distance- -Other- sun (H) 864,000 mi. 0 Fire "Venus" (E) 7,581 67,000,000 Earth, hot Mystara (E) 7,926 93,000,000 Earth, hollow, 2 moons "Mars" (E) 4,200 141,000,000 Earth, cold Damocles (E) 6,103 257,000,000 Earth, civilization "Jupiter" (G) 88,670 484,000,000 Air "Saturn" (G) 75,062 887,000,000 Air, rings "Uranus" (F) 29,577 1,783,000,000 Air "Neptune" (F) 27,589 3,230,000,000 Air Charon (E) 5,320 7,105,000,000 Earth, cold Comet Belt (A) - 1.4x10^10 Air, Belt Note: Damocles is destined to explode, in 1000AC's future. It's fragments form an Asteroid belt, while the largest two pieces shoot off and become "Mercury" and "Pluto". Other pieces become the gas giants' retrograde moons. IMC, Damocles went during the WotI, as it's civilization's technology bore a striking resemblance to Blackmoor's.. and one of the smaller pieces crashed into Mystara, forming the Great Crater. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #116 ***************************** From ???@??? Thu May 16 09:52:04 1996 X-UIDL: 2fbb0a61a9d77938ed0173d99b550333 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA13909; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:07:08 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04913 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 15:29:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:29:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199605152029.PAA04913@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #117 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, 15 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 117 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Seah Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Psionics > but if anyone is interested I am working on supplementary > guidelines/rules for dealing with psionicists in Mystara, the Kopru, and > neglected elements of Thanegioth and Yavi culture. I might put it into a > brief module/scenario form - if anyone is interested I would love > criticisms/comments and I'm of course willing to offer up the finished > module to anyone who wants to testrun it ... > Well, I'd like to see it, but what I'd also like to see is some discussion of mechanics and why you choose them, as well. For instance, will you use a AD&D point-system "draw from psionics pool" type structure, or will you structure it like spells with limited usage of powers from each level per day? That kind of thing. But the basic answer is, yes, I'd be interested. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:44:07 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: [Mystara] Skills As promised and requested I will now send the list of skills I have collected from Gazetteers and other sources, including my own twisted head. At the moment I can only send this list of skill-names, as the notes in my original list are mainly in finish (language of Finland that is), and so of little use to you. Also the notes were anyway only vague, ment for my own use. Also I like to say I'm sorry of the delay, I was disconnected from my computed for a week :) But here are some notes: 1. The number after a skill is the number of the Gaz from which the skill is derivated. A number with p in front means an Creature Cruzible. 2. The thieves skills here are ment for non-thieves. The prosentage of success depends on skill level (0-5) rather than the level of the character. Anyways, these would be much much lower than those of thieves, especially so, as not many would bother to raise the skill above, say 1. 3. Skills such as persuation and deceive are saved vs. spells (or some vs. wisdom) with neg. modifiers from skill over 0. (say -2 for skill 2, etc). And they wont make anybody to do anything, he really might do with some persuation etc. 4. Most skills can be specialiced on some smaller sub-subject. Say, you have Kof (knowledge of) History, but you could also have specialiced yourself on the history of Thyatis, so knowing more details of it, and only basic knowledge on other history. 5. There are some skills on more than one attribute. Say Ventriloquism is both a Charisma and a Dexterity skill. Its intentional, as there is a differemce anyway. With the Dex-Ventriloquism you are good on the tecnical part of ventriloquism. You are a good ventriloquist. Then somebody else has studied Cha-ventriloquism, he isnt as good on the real proses, but he can entertain crowds with his skill, he is a funny ventriloquism. Anyway, you only need one of the skills. 6. Many a GM will also be of a different mind on wether some skills are based on INT or WIS. Be free to change things, Do it like you like, just like I do too :) 7. Some skills are restricted on some classes, say a fighter cant learn spell-combination 8. I told previously how we use the skills, and what the levels (0-5) mean, so I wont do it now again. 9. There will surely be some questions, on what some skill mean, so if you wish, ask, and I try to clarify, what they mean in our game Here you are; SKILLS STRENGTH Intimidate 7 Lumberjack 11 Muscle 7 Porter Ram p3 Rip p3 INTELLIGENCE Advocasy 11 Alchemy Alternate Magics 7 Appraisal 11 Artillery 10 Artisan Astrology Bargaining 11 Bargemaking 11 Barrelmaking 11 Blacksmith 11 Armorer 11 Locksmith Silversmith Weaponsmith 11 Boating 12 Bowyer 11 Brewing 11 Building 11 Cabinetmaking 11 Cantrips Canvasmaking 11 Captain 7 Cartmaking 11 Charcoal Maker Cobbler 11 Composing Conjure companion 3 Construction Cooking Coral manipulation p3 Disquise Drayers 11 Drovers 11 Engineering Farming 11 Finance 11 Fletching 11 Florist Forgery Furrier Gambling 11 Gemcutting 11 Herbalism Hiding P1,5 Hypnotism Jeweler 11 Landskape Gardening Language Leather Armorer Lip Reading Machine building p2 Magical Engineering 7 Mapping 10 Mastmaking Mathematics Military Tactics Mining 11 Navigation 11 Negotiation 11 Odor scenting 10 Odor tracking p3 Oil Maker Orientation 10 Outdoorsmanship 7 Planar Geography 7 Poisons Quick casting 3 Rigging Read Runes 7 Saddlemaking 11 Sailing 11 Saltmaker Shellworking Shipbuilding 11 Signaling 10 Sound Analysist Spellcraft Stonecutting 11 Survival Tailor 11 Tobacconist Toolmaking 11 Torture Tracking Trapbuilding 11 Trapping Varnishing Vinter Warmachine Engineering Wheelwright 11 Woodsmith WISDOM Alertness Animal empathy Animal Training 11 Beekeeper Berserkery Bloodlust control p3 Bravery 10 Candle Maker Danger Sense P4 Detect deception 7 Direction sense Etiquette Fantasy Physics p2 Falconry Filosophy Fishing Foretelling Gardening p1 Guidance 6 Healing Heraldry Herding p1 Honor 7 Hostess Knowledge of (Kof) History Kof Land Kof Place Kof Culture Lawyer 11 Lore Meditation 3 Monster empathy 10 Self-Control p4 Spirit plane geog 12 Mysticism 10 Teaching Vetenarian Water Divining p2 Weather 7 DEXTERITY Acrobatics Basketweaver Cheating 6 Climbing 11 Rig Climbing Close Magic Dancing Dart p3 Dismount rider 12 Dodge p3 Escape Artist 10 Evade 12 Fighting instings Fire building F/R Traps Glassblowing 11 Harpooning Hunting 7 Hornmaker Juggling 6 Jump 12 Leatherworking 11 Lockpicking Netmaking 11 Pickpocket Piloting Pipe Making Potter 11 Rapid fire 12 Riding 11 Ropemaking 11 Ropeuse Spinning 11 Surprise 7 Treewalking Ventriloquism Weaving 11 Woodcutting CONSTITUTION Eating p1 Resist Wolvesbane p4 Sleeping 10 Stamina 7 Transformation p4 Drinking Quick Change p4 Running CHARISMA Acting Allure p3 Bootlicking Deceive Gain Trust 7 Leadership 7 Persuation 11 Playing Poetry Servility 10 Singing Sound imitation Storytelling Ventriloquism EXTRA WEAPON SKILLS Boxing Wrestling Two-weapons Blind fighting Shield - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 17:08:04 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skills On Tue, 14 May 1996, Anias Pasi wrote: > 8. I told previously how we use the skills, and what the > levels (0-5) mean, so I wont do it now again. I didnt quite catch how chances of success were figured. Did you mention that? Also. Did you say that your characters get extra skills for all their atribute scores? You were a bit vague on that point. Haavard ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:30 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... At 11:37 PM 5/9/96 EDT, you wrote: >Daniel Niklasson writes: > >> I just have two questions;=20 >> >> 1: does Red Steel(the metal) work the same all over Mystara as it do on the >> Savage Coast?? > > Yes. The Huleans love it. > >> 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? > > No. > Of course there are psionics on Mystara. Why wouldn't there be? David Melik ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:31 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells At 02:55 PM 5/10/96 +0100, you wrote: >At 19:38 09.05.96 +0200, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>I'm starting to make a complete list of all spell that I can found in all >>the OD&D supplements I have (RC, GAZ, PC, COM, HW...). >>I've in mind to divide the list in various sections according to the kind of >>magic (Clerical, Magical, Treekepers, Fairies, Shadow Elves Shamans, >>Atruaghin Shamans, Ethengar Shamans, Darokin Merchants, Minrothad >Merchants...). >>If someone has already done something like this or has to give some advice >>please e-mail me. >>BTW: it will take me much time to do this list, so don't expect to see it soon. > >Would you also consider converting these spells to AD&D? Schools, spheres >and similar considerations would be (in some cases) a good topic for >discussion. (As per the RC guide of conversion?). I'm one of the many who've >started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is >Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got >the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this >list is the lack of total off-subject crap! On the other hand, I'm more than >busy enough doing that on the other list I subscribe to, and the info here >is quite useful. > Did you see my weapon mastery posting? You might like it, I think it's easier to use in OD&D or AD&D than the RC version. David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:31 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Weapon Mastery At 12:21 PM 5/10/96 -0700, you wrote: >> started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is >> Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got >> the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this > >I'm not sure Weapon Mastery should be converted, since the Mystara >setting featured monsters (at the "high-levels") with HD of 20+ >regularly. I think in the _Creature Crucible_ there were monsters of 50+ >HD, too. Juggernauts and Leviathans and Bodendrukers, for instance. >Weapon Mastery lets you have heinous damage at high mastery levels, >perhaps precisely to offset the incredible amount of HP creatures in the >setting have. But this is at the same time perhaps contrary to AD&D's >push for lower power. > >However, if you still want Weapon Mastery, you could simply make up some >scheme of your own. It might go like this : > >1) each mastery level = 1 slot, and adds +1d1, +1d2, or +1d4 damage to >small, medium, and large weapons. Therefore, a 1d4/1d3 Medium weapon >becomes 1d6/1d4+1 at Skilled, 1d8/1d6+1 at Expert. At Master and >Grandmaster level, add +1, +2, and +4 respectively. Therefore the >1d4/1d3 weapon is 1d8+2/1d6+3 at Master, 1d8+4/1d6+5 at GrandMaster. > >2) each weapon "special ability", including AC benefits and ability to >throw, requires 1 proficiency slot; these increase with master level >increase, though. Therefore, 5 slots could give you GrandMaster Short >Sword, and you can throw it to Grand Master ranges as well. > I think that would be very foolish for anyone, even a grand master of a weapon to automatically have a certain amount of damage because of weapon mastery. Even a weapon master misses, and in between a hit and a miss is low damage. It really should be potential damage. If you want to do it an unrealistic way though, if you have fun, that's what counts. By the way, aren't there any comments on the weapon mastery system I made up? David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:44 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells At 12:17 AM 5/11/96 EDT, you wrote: >Henrik Nordhus writes: >> started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is >> Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got >> the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this > > Actually, that's something that I'm currently working on... I'm >adapting OD&D weapon mastery ( it's far superior to the AD&D weapon system >) for use with my AD&D Mystara campaign, if everyone would like i could >post it when i'm done.... > You're right, OD&D weapon mastery is highly superior to the very boring AD&D weapon specialization, however, it does have some major problems. I tried to correct these in my system I posted a while ago, what did you think of it? Perhaps we should discuss these problems and solutions to them. David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:52 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Weapon Mastery At 09:54 AM 5/11/96 -0700, you wrote: > >> > setting have. But this is at the same time perhaps contrary to AD&D's >> > push for lower power. >> >> You're forgetting that playing AD&D in the Mystara setting, those >> monsters will still be there... And AD&D monsters seem on average to be >> MORE powerful than OD&D monsters... >> >Yes, but in AD&D, the focus may have shifted from "you can defeat X" to >"you're not supposed to be able to defeat X" > >In D&D, the "ultimate" goal is to become an Immortal. The intended level >of power is way higher, especially when you consider some of the tasks >required toward immortality. > >In AD&D, they dropped the unlimited level advancement and pretty much >plummetted it to L20. Even in 1st ed where you had unlimited level >advancement, only mages had the real good stuff, what with L3 and L8 >fireballs at 1d/L, unlimited dice. Fighters topped their number of >attacks against creatures of > 1 HD at about 2/1; even with weapon >proficiency, you maybe got 3/1. > Wrong. They did it in AD&D 2ND EDITION! 1ST EDITION RULES!!!!! In 1st edition, the ultimate goal might be divine ascension, according to the original Legends & Lore. I don't know about 2nd ed, but I don't really care, as the sole purpose of it is money for TSR! ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:30 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] First Quest Books At 06:51 PM 5/9/96 PDT, you wrote: >>>"In Dixie McKeone's /Son of Dawn/, an orphan leaves his island home to >>>embark on a perilous trek across the continent of Brun to return two >>>kidnapped Shadow Elf children to their royal parents." >>> >>By the way, do you, or anyone else know which "First Quest" books are on >>Mystara and which are not? "First Quest" sounds so... generic, I wish they >>would have separated the Mystara ones and called them a Mystara series >>instead of lumping it in with that beginner's stuff. Geez! Mystara had >>36th and immortal level adventures, so I guess that means it's a beginner's >>world, isn't it! I suppose TSR thinks so. Does anyone know if the "First >>Quest" boxed set is on Mystara, and if it is, is it good? > > >There were 6 First Quest books, but only two are set in Mystara, the other 4 >are generic worlds. They are written for the reading level of young teenagers >though. > >In my opinion, > >Son of Dawn is good as campaign background and can be adapted into a full length >adventure for PCs with some work. It is set in 1010 AC. It is definitely worth >getting if you are a Mystara collector. > >Rogues to Riches is the other Mystara novel, and it is set in Norworld. It is >next to useless for campaign background, only very scanty details of the rulers >of the three main cities are provided, and a few details of Heldannic Knights >(as good guys). > >There is also the Endless Quest series of books, I know at least one of those >was set in Ravenloft, but I don't know of any that were set in Mystara. > Wait, isn't Son of Dawn part of the Quest Triad? I thought it would be four then. David Melik ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:54 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... At 10:30 AM 5/11/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >> > >> > > 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? >> > >> > No. >> > >> Wrong. The Most Serene Divinarchy of Yavdlom (see Champions of Mystara) >> has psionically capable citizens, though no rules were given to tell what >> kind of powers or anything. This is an opportunity to introduce psionics >> to Mystara, or it can be left as an isolated case due to some abberation >> in the area (I think one is vaguely alluded to in the Boxed Set). >> >> _________________ > > Just wanted to throw in two bits (again): I wasn't aware of the >reference to psionics in Yavdlom, but that fact actually fits very well From ???@??? Thu May 16 09:52:04 1996 X-UIDL: 2fbb0a61a9d77938ed0173d99b550333 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA13909; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:07:08 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04913 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 15:29:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:29:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199605152029.PAA04913@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #117 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk >with my (admittedly bizarre) pet theory about psionics and the Kopru - >since Yavdlom is nearer to the Thanegioth aquatic flayers than any other >major human civilization. I don't know if my earlier post went >unanswered because it was just plain too absurd to take (fair enough); >but if anyone is interested I am working on supplementary >guidelines/rules for dealing with psionicists in Mystara, the Kopru, and >neglected elements of Thanegioth and Yavi culture. I might put it into a >brief module/scenario form - if anyone is interested I would love >criticisms/comments and I'm of course willing to offer up the finished >module to anyone who wants to testrun it ... > I'm just wondering, is this going to fit in with 1st or 2nd edition AD&D psionics, or will it be unique, or have the advantages of 1st and 2nd ed set up for Mystara? I would like to see it have the advantages of both. Kopru psionics? Haven't heard of that before... David M. ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 08:17:13 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skills Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > I didnt quite catch how chances of success were figured. > Did you mention that? > Also. Did you say that your characters get extra skills for all their > atribute scores? You were a bit vague on that point. No I didnt mention that. It is the same way it is in the Gazetteers mainly. The skill is based on some attribute as in the list, and skill level above 0 gives bonus for the skill (1/level, max.5). When you want to do something you (or sometimes your GM) roll d20. if the roll is under or equal the skill, you suceed. 20 is allways a failure and 1 is a good success. When appropriate (often) the gm may give bonus or penalties on the roll, if it is easy or hard. Range I use is -9to+3. -5 is wery hard, -9 is near impossible (-10 is impossible, no roll) +2 is wery easy. The skill levels were from 0 to 5. 0 is basic knowledge of skill (apprentice), 1 is Working knowledge of skill (you could get a living with the skill, when appropriate) 2 is good, 3 is excellent (hard to learn), 4 is master (and rare), 5 is Grand master (and wery, wery rare). The gm may rule automatical successed on basic things if the skill is abowe 0 (and even before, in the wery basic things). And the higher the skill, the more basic the things get. Even if you dont have the skill, you may be familiar with most skills, and so attemp an default roll with basic -5 roll on the skill (the penalty wont get higher, as one can do only basic shores without the skill). The gm is the final ruler (as allways) on wether the skill can be used on default, and wether your backround makes you familiar with it. Also note that some things are so basic, anyone can do them automaticly. And the second question. Yes I did say so. The characters get extra skills on all they attribute-bonuses. for each +1, +2 or +3 the character gets 1, 2 or 3 skill-lots to put on the skills based on that attribute. Say a barbarian with Str 16 (+2), Dex 14 (+1) and Int 5 (-2) would get two skills based on str and one based on dex as a free bonus. How ever, no extra skills, even if the attributed would change later in the game. And the neg. bonus wont take away skills. Also here are some points: -as intelligence is needed in all work and studies, the skills gained with an Int bonus can be used to skills based on any attributes. Say with a int 13 (+1) you would gain a bonus skill on int, or you could choose a skill based on str, or dex, or anything else. -As there are wery few skills based on str and con, I usually allow those bonused to be used on weapon skills too (including those extra weapon skills in the list). But only to get more weapon skills on basic (1) level, not to suddenly become Grand master on sword or something. Though sometimes I let more than one bonus lot to be put on them extra weapon skills. I have deemd all this possible, as the characters wont get so many weapon skill on their carreer anyhow. at least, not in my DD (I have made some small changes on the weapon skills too, to better suit my needs of fast realism, but those changes i wont be writing this time, as it would be a long post. Maby some other time) I hope your questions were answered Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:54:38 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] War Machine As I see that many people here are familiar with the War Machine I've to ask them a pair of questions: 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the soldiers ? 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine > 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I > mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army > (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the > number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the > soldiers ? There is the assumption, I think, that war won't be completely abstracted. If you're a weeny officer, you get in the thick of the fighting too, and there's XP there -- consider the subsection which deals with "PC heroics." I think the implication there is that there will be roleplayed bits and tactical combat bits in there. If you're a general, the XP gain is a reflection of handling an army. How fair you think this is will vary, but it seems okay for the remarkably little work and great assumptions. For instance, as a sergeant, you get in them ditches and go hand to hand with the baddies. There's considerably more risk, and therefore you might end up getting more XP throughout the battle. As general, War Machine has given you tactics and leadership for free. > 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their > magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands > and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway > they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? In big battles, it won't matter since clearly the % of troops with magic will not change appreciably. To handle the use of charges, therefore, I suggest you move to a tactical POV. If they want to blow off 5 charges of a Wand of Fire Balls to decimate a squad or two, then roleplay that battle. If they want to assume such things, then dock charges and make adjustments to enemy numbers appropriately -- troop ratios do affect BR, as do the type of troops they choose to nuke; riders, for instance, or flyers. Just remember that the bad guys (or are your players the bad guys?) can do it too. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine On Wed, 15 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > As I see that many people here are familiar with the War Machine I've to ask > them a pair of questions: > 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I > mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army > (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the > number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the > soldiers ? I used to do it that way, but it increases the xp of top leaders way too fast anyway. So do the rules on dominion xp. A better way is too give xp based on subjective DM determination of initiative taken, skill shown, originality of tactics, etc. to PC's in a battle (regardless of rank) and just abstract completely for NPC's. Otherwise this can get very silly - look at ICE's War Law for an example, if you're familiar with Chartmaster (I mean Rolemaster!). Whenever in doubt, fake it. > 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their > magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands > and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway > they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? > I forget the details of war machine on this and I don't have my rules here. Do magic items give a bonus at all? Perhaps you should cut a tiny part of the bonus given for the PC's presence. What bonus is given for PC's without magic items? I'm sorry my memory is fuzzy on this one. m@2 ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... On Tue, 14 May 1996, David Melik wrote: > > > > Just wanted to throw in two bits (again): I wasn't aware of the > >reference to psionics in Yavdlom, but that fact actually fits very well > >with my (admittedly bizarre) pet theory about psionics and the Kopru - > >since Yavdlom is nearer to the Thanegioth aquatic flayers than any other > >major human civilization. I don't know if my earlier post went > >unanswered because it was just plain too absurd to take (fair enough); > >but if anyone is interested I am working on supplementary > >guidelines/rules for dealing with psionicists in Mystara, the Kopru, and > >neglected elements of Thanegioth and Yavi culture. I might put it into a > >brief module/scenario form - if anyone is interested I would love > >criticisms/comments and I'm of course willing to offer up the finished > >module to anyone who wants to testrun it ... > > > I'm just wondering, is this going to fit in with 1st or 2nd edition AD&D > psionics, or will it be unique, or have the advantages of 1st and 2nd ed set > up for Mystara? > I would like to see it have the advantages of both. Kopru psionics? > Haven't heard of that before... > > David M. > > Well, first of all, of course you've never heard of Kopru psionics before, since OD&D has no psionics rules. But it has alwasy seemed obvious to me that the Kopru are related to the Illithids and that Kopru powers were intended to mimic psionics in a simplified way. I think the idea of combining the advantages of 1st and 2nd edition psionics is a good one - I probably will begin with a framework similar to 1st edition but include some of the newer powers. It is also possible I will use the new rules from the Player's Option Skills and Powers book. Player's Option seems very unpopular on this list but I have grown quite fond of some of the new rules. Anyway I think that TSR is headed that way anyway - unless they just decide to ditch it like they did with much of Unearthed Arcana, and start over again with 3rd edition. I am quite aware of TSR's tendency to grub for cash wherever possible, but I think that newer rules sometimes ARE better - I think the 2nd edition framework for character creation is a big improvement over 1st edition. The new psionics rules are in some ways more usable - the concept of mental Thaco is quite fun. I think Mystara's psionicists should be distinctive, though, mainly because they will be concentrated among the Thanegioths, the Yavi, and on the Savage Coast so they should reflect the cultures of that area - I have a kind of Voodoo-influenced feel in mind. I still haven't decided and anyway I am away from some of my books just now - most problematically I have no access to the Psionicist handbook! - so it may be a month or so before I really get rolling on it. I'll let you know though. By the way, while I'm writing I had one other thing to say: On the subject of weapon mastery, it seems to me the real issue is not realism or plausibility - the basic combat system of D&D is far too abstract for that - but rather play balance and dynamics. The problem of AD&D (1st or 2nd) is that it does not allow any real capacity for improvement in combat abilities for fighters - specialization adds a little bit but it's too flat and boring to make fighters any fun to play. Also fighter power becomes stat-based and not skill-based, which pisses me off - it only encourages ability dice-inflation which throws the original game out of whack. Thus every fighter has at least an 18/51 strength - that's just silly. On the other hand, OD&D weapon mastery throws things too far in the other direction, so that the damage caused by high level characters is patently ridiculous. I remember one character under those rules who was an ambidextrous grand master with 2 plus 5 longswords (not at all difficult too find in a standard high-powered OD&D campaign) and who caused an automatic (!!!) 70 or more points of damage per round unless he fumbled one or more of his attacks - sometimes the total was higher! While this is necessary for fighting some of the really big monsters, it makes every lesser monster no challenge at all - even normally tough mosters such as young dragons. Furthermore, any mega-powered fighter can basically kill any other mega-fighter in one round with surprise, regardless of armor class!!! With the aid of high level clerics, fighters like this can wade through dungeons without thinking, mowing down everything in sight like so much lawn grass. This can be fun for a while, but it gets silly very quickly. The advantage of level caps and lower powered weapon mastery is that while it gives decided advantages based on skill, it still allows for a tighter range of power - low level characters are not SO far removed from high level. Thus a 15th level fighter can have 3rd level fighter along as a henchman and not have him be either irrelevant or immediately killed. A 30th level fighter cannot do the same - any opponent who would challenge the head character can kill his henchmen without even thinking - this is just too much of a distance - even in super hero comics an ordinary mortal has a chance of surviving when faced with the most powerful mega-enemy. Super high powered combat systems take away the random element and make everything predictably level-based and therefore boring. In that light, I kinda like the Player's Option rules on weapon mastery - they are modelled after the OD&D rules but are reduced in power. Now you can have a grandmaster who does d10+3 base damage with a longword - a definite improvement over d8 but not as high as 4d12 or whatever fucking ridiculous amount the OD&D rules had. You can also acheive mastery at lower levels, giving mid-level characters a new edge. I haven't been playing with this system long, but it does seem to be a nice balance. Mastery, rather than conferring more damage, gives more other abilities like increased critical hits, more attacks, and special maneuvers - the best part of the OD&D rules. I have not been playing with these rules very long - just since last summer - but I quite like them so far. The critical hit rules also introduce a random element, the kind of thing that allowed two first level characters in my campaign to kill an 8th level wizard almost by accident in a bar fight. Things like this make D&D edgy, dangerous, and exciting, instead of turning it into a contest over who has higher stats or more hit dice. gaming should be about anarchy, not bureaucratic meritocracy. m@2 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #117 ***************************** From ???@??? Thu May 16 09:52:17 1996 X-UIDL: 2f15e797e85d0890243febc769416865 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA14514; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:39:30 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04913 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 15:29:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:29:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199605152029.PAA04913@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #117 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, 15 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 117 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Seah Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Psionics > but if anyone is interested I am working on supplementary > guidelines/rules for dealing with psionicists in Mystara, the Kopru, and > neglected elements of Thanegioth and Yavi culture. I might put it into a > brief module/scenario form - if anyone is interested I would love > criticisms/comments and I'm of course willing to offer up the finished > module to anyone who wants to testrun it ... > Well, I'd like to see it, but what I'd also like to see is some discussion of mechanics and why you choose them, as well. For instance, will you use a AD&D point-system "draw from psionics pool" type structure, or will you structure it like spells with limited usage of powers from each level per day? That kind of thing. But the basic answer is, yes, I'd be interested. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:44:07 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: [Mystara] Skills As promised and requested I will now send the list of skills I have collected from Gazetteers and other sources, including my own twisted head. At the moment I can only send this list of skill-names, as the notes in my original list are mainly in finish (language of Finland that is), and so of little use to you. Also the notes were anyway only vague, ment for my own use. Also I like to say I'm sorry of the delay, I was disconnected from my computed for a week :) But here are some notes: 1. The number after a skill is the number of the Gaz from which the skill is derivated. A number with p in front means an Creature Cruzible. 2. The thieves skills here are ment for non-thieves. The prosentage of success depends on skill level (0-5) rather than the level of the character. Anyways, these would be much much lower than those of thieves, especially so, as not many would bother to raise the skill above, say 1. 3. Skills such as persuation and deceive are saved vs. spells (or some vs. wisdom) with neg. modifiers from skill over 0. (say -2 for skill 2, etc). And they wont make anybody to do anything, he really might do with some persuation etc. 4. Most skills can be specialiced on some smaller sub-subject. Say, you have Kof (knowledge of) History, but you could also have specialiced yourself on the history of Thyatis, so knowing more details of it, and only basic knowledge on other history. 5. There are some skills on more than one attribute. Say Ventriloquism is both a Charisma and a Dexterity skill. Its intentional, as there is a differemce anyway. With the Dex-Ventriloquism you are good on the tecnical part of ventriloquism. You are a good ventriloquist. Then somebody else has studied Cha-ventriloquism, he isnt as good on the real proses, but he can entertain crowds with his skill, he is a funny ventriloquism. Anyway, you only need one of the skills. 6. Many a GM will also be of a different mind on wether some skills are based on INT or WIS. Be free to change things, Do it like you like, just like I do too :) 7. Some skills are restricted on some classes, say a fighter cant learn spell-combination 8. I told previously how we use the skills, and what the levels (0-5) mean, so I wont do it now again. 9. There will surely be some questions, on what some skill mean, so if you wish, ask, and I try to clarify, what they mean in our game Here you are; SKILLS STRENGTH Intimidate 7 Lumberjack 11 Muscle 7 Porter Ram p3 Rip p3 INTELLIGENCE Advocasy 11 Alchemy Alternate Magics 7 Appraisal 11 Artillery 10 Artisan Astrology Bargaining 11 Bargemaking 11 Barrelmaking 11 Blacksmith 11 Armorer 11 Locksmith Silversmith Weaponsmith 11 Boating 12 Bowyer 11 Brewing 11 Building 11 Cabinetmaking 11 Cantrips Canvasmaking 11 Captain 7 Cartmaking 11 Charcoal Maker Cobbler 11 Composing Conjure companion 3 Construction Cooking Coral manipulation p3 Disquise Drayers 11 Drovers 11 Engineering Farming 11 Finance 11 Fletching 11 Florist Forgery Furrier Gambling 11 Gemcutting 11 Herbalism Hiding P1,5 Hypnotism Jeweler 11 Landskape Gardening Language Leather Armorer Lip Reading Machine building p2 Magical Engineering 7 Mapping 10 Mastmaking Mathematics Military Tactics Mining 11 Navigation 11 Negotiation 11 Odor scenting 10 Odor tracking p3 Oil Maker Orientation 10 Outdoorsmanship 7 Planar Geography 7 Poisons Quick casting 3 Rigging Read Runes 7 Saddlemaking 11 Sailing 11 Saltmaker Shellworking Shipbuilding 11 Signaling 10 Sound Analysist Spellcraft Stonecutting 11 Survival Tailor 11 Tobacconist Toolmaking 11 Torture Tracking Trapbuilding 11 Trapping Varnishing Vinter Warmachine Engineering Wheelwright 11 Woodsmith WISDOM Alertness Animal empathy Animal Training 11 Beekeeper Berserkery Bloodlust control p3 Bravery 10 Candle Maker Danger Sense P4 Detect deception 7 Direction sense Etiquette Fantasy Physics p2 Falconry Filosophy Fishing Foretelling Gardening p1 Guidance 6 Healing Heraldry Herding p1 Honor 7 Hostess Knowledge of (Kof) History Kof Land Kof Place Kof Culture Lawyer 11 Lore Meditation 3 Monster empathy 10 Self-Control p4 Spirit plane geog 12 Mysticism 10 Teaching Vetenarian Water Divining p2 Weather 7 DEXTERITY Acrobatics Basketweaver Cheating 6 Climbing 11 Rig Climbing Close Magic Dancing Dart p3 Dismount rider 12 Dodge p3 Escape Artist 10 Evade 12 Fighting instings Fire building F/R Traps Glassblowing 11 Harpooning Hunting 7 Hornmaker Juggling 6 Jump 12 Leatherworking 11 Lockpicking Netmaking 11 Pickpocket Piloting Pipe Making Potter 11 Rapid fire 12 Riding 11 Ropemaking 11 Ropeuse Spinning 11 Surprise 7 Treewalking Ventriloquism Weaving 11 Woodcutting CONSTITUTION Eating p1 Resist Wolvesbane p4 Sleeping 10 Stamina 7 Transformation p4 Drinking Quick Change p4 Running CHARISMA Acting Allure p3 Bootlicking Deceive Gain Trust 7 Leadership 7 Persuation 11 Playing Poetry Servility 10 Singing Sound imitation Storytelling Ventriloquism EXTRA WEAPON SKILLS Boxing Wrestling Two-weapons Blind fighting Shield - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 17:08:04 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skills On Tue, 14 May 1996, Anias Pasi wrote: > 8. I told previously how we use the skills, and what the > levels (0-5) mean, so I wont do it now again. I didnt quite catch how chances of success were figured. Did you mention that? Also. Did you say that your characters get extra skills for all their atribute scores? You were a bit vague on that point. Haavard ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:30 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... At 11:37 PM 5/9/96 EDT, you wrote: >Daniel Niklasson writes: > >> I just have two questions;=20 >> >> 1: does Red Steel(the metal) work the same all over Mystara as it do on the >> Savage Coast?? > > Yes. The Huleans love it. > >> 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? > > No. > Of course there are psionics on Mystara. Why wouldn't there be? David Melik ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:31 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells At 02:55 PM 5/10/96 +0100, you wrote: >At 19:38 09.05.96 +0200, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>I'm starting to make a complete list of all spell that I can found in all >>the OD&D supplements I have (RC, GAZ, PC, COM, HW...). >>I've in mind to divide the list in various sections according to the kind of >>magic (Clerical, Magical, Treekepers, Fairies, Shadow Elves Shamans, >>Atruaghin Shamans, Ethengar Shamans, Darokin Merchants, Minrothad >Merchants...). >>If someone has already done something like this or has to give some advice >>please e-mail me. >>BTW: it will take me much time to do this list, so don't expect to see it soon. > >Would you also consider converting these spells to AD&D? Schools, spheres >and similar considerations would be (in some cases) a good topic for >discussion. (As per the RC guide of conversion?). I'm one of the many who've >started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is >Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got >the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this >list is the lack of total off-subject crap! On the other hand, I'm more than >busy enough doing that on the other list I subscribe to, and the info here >is quite useful. > Did you see my weapon mastery posting? You might like it, I think it's easier to use in OD&D or AD&D than the RC version. David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:31 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Weapon Mastery At 12:21 PM 5/10/96 -0700, you wrote: >> started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is >> Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got >> the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this > >I'm not sure Weapon Mastery should be converted, since the Mystara >setting featured monsters (at the "high-levels") with HD of 20+ >regularly. I think in the _Creature Crucible_ there were monsters of 50+ >HD, too. Juggernauts and Leviathans and Bodendrukers, for instance. >Weapon Mastery lets you have heinous damage at high mastery levels, >perhaps precisely to offset the incredible amount of HP creatures in the >setting have. But this is at the same time perhaps contrary to AD&D's >push for lower power. > >However, if you still want Weapon Mastery, you could simply make up some >scheme of your own. It might go like this : > >1) each mastery level = 1 slot, and adds +1d1, +1d2, or +1d4 damage to >small, medium, and large weapons. Therefore, a 1d4/1d3 Medium weapon >becomes 1d6/1d4+1 at Skilled, 1d8/1d6+1 at Expert. At Master and >Grandmaster level, add +1, +2, and +4 respectively. Therefore the >1d4/1d3 weapon is 1d8+2/1d6+3 at Master, 1d8+4/1d6+5 at GrandMaster. > >2) each weapon "special ability", including AC benefits and ability to >throw, requires 1 proficiency slot; these increase with master level >increase, though. Therefore, 5 slots could give you GrandMaster Short >Sword, and you can throw it to Grand Master ranges as well. > I think that would be very foolish for anyone, even a grand master of a weapon to automatically have a certain amount of damage because of weapon mastery. Even a weapon master misses, and in between a hit and a miss is low damage. It really should be potential damage. If you want to do it an unrealistic way though, if you have fun, that's what counts. By the way, aren't there any comments on the weapon mastery system I made up? David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:44 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] List of all spells At 12:17 AM 5/11/96 EDT, you wrote: >Henrik Nordhus writes: >> started using AD&D for the Mystara setting. (What I miss most from OD&D is >> Weapon Mastery, I know it'd be possible to adapt it to AD&D, but who's got >> the time?). Now, beside the point : The only disappointing thing about this > > Actually, that's something that I'm currently working on... I'm >adapting OD&D weapon mastery ( it's far superior to the AD&D weapon system >) for use with my AD&D Mystara campaign, if everyone would like i could >post it when i'm done.... > You're right, OD&D weapon mastery is highly superior to the very boring AD&D weapon specialization, however, it does have some major problems. I tried to correct these in my system I posted a while ago, what did you think of it? Perhaps we should discuss these problems and solutions to them. David M. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:52 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Weapon Mastery At 09:54 AM 5/11/96 -0700, you wrote: > >> > setting have. But this is at the same time perhaps contrary to AD&D's >> > push for lower power. >> >> You're forgetting that playing AD&D in the Mystara setting, those >> monsters will still be there... And AD&D monsters seem on average to be >> MORE powerful than OD&D monsters... >> >Yes, but in AD&D, the focus may have shifted from "you can defeat X" to >"you're not supposed to be able to defeat X" > >In D&D, the "ultimate" goal is to become an Immortal. The intended level >of power is way higher, especially when you consider some of the tasks >required toward immortality. > >In AD&D, they dropped the unlimited level advancement and pretty much >plummetted it to L20. Even in 1st ed where you had unlimited level >advancement, only mages had the real good stuff, what with L3 and L8 >fireballs at 1d/L, unlimited dice. Fighters topped their number of >attacks against creatures of > 1 HD at about 2/1; even with weapon >proficiency, you maybe got 3/1. > Wrong. They did it in AD&D 2ND EDITION! 1ST EDITION RULES!!!!! In 1st edition, the ultimate goal might be divine ascension, according to the original Legends & Lore. I don't know about 2nd ed, but I don't really care, as the sole purpose of it is money for TSR! ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:30 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] First Quest Books At 06:51 PM 5/9/96 PDT, you wrote: >>>"In Dixie McKeone's /Son of Dawn/, an orphan leaves his island home to >>>embark on a perilous trek across the continent of Brun to return two >>>kidnapped Shadow Elf children to their royal parents." >>> >>By the way, do you, or anyone else know which "First Quest" books are on >>Mystara and which are not? "First Quest" sounds so... generic, I wish they >>would have separated the Mystara ones and called them a Mystara series >>instead of lumping it in with that beginner's stuff. Geez! Mystara had >>36th and immortal level adventures, so I guess that means it's a beginner's >>world, isn't it! I suppose TSR thinks so. Does anyone know if the "First >>Quest" boxed set is on Mystara, and if it is, is it good? > > >There were 6 First Quest books, but only two are set in Mystara, the other 4 >are generic worlds. They are written for the reading level of young teenagers >though. > >In my opinion, > >Son of Dawn is good as campaign background and can be adapted into a full length >adventure for PCs with some work. It is set in 1010 AC. It is definitely worth >getting if you are a Mystara collector. > >Rogues to Riches is the other Mystara novel, and it is set in Norworld. It is >next to useless for campaign background, only very scanty details of the rulers >of the three main cities are provided, and a few details of Heldannic Knights >(as good guys). > >There is also the Endless Quest series of books, I know at least one of those >was set in Ravenloft, but I don't know of any that were set in Mystara. > Wait, isn't Son of Dawn part of the Quest Triad? I thought it would be four then. David Melik ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:54 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... At 10:30 AM 5/11/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >> > >> > > 2: Are there eny Psionics in the Known World??? >> > >> > No. >> > >> Wrong. The Most Serene Divinarchy of Yavdlom (see Champions of Mystara) >> has psionically capable citizens, though no rules were given to tell what >> kind of powers or anything. This is an opportunity to introduce psionics >> to Mystara, or it can be left as an isolated case due to some abberation >> in the area (I think one is vaguely alluded to in the Boxed Set). >> >> _________________ > > Just wanted to throw in two bits (again): I wasn't aware of the >reference to psionics in Yavdlom, but that fact actually fits very well From ???@??? Thu May 16 09:52:17 1996 X-UIDL: 2f15e797e85d0890243febc769416865 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA14514; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:39:30 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04913 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 15:29:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:29:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199605152029.PAA04913@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #117 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk >with my (admittedly bizarre) pet theory about psionics and the Kopru - >since Yavdlom is nearer to the Thanegioth aquatic flayers than any other >major human civilization. I don't know if my earlier post went >unanswered because it was just plain too absurd to take (fair enough); >but if anyone is interested I am working on supplementary >guidelines/rules for dealing with psionicists in Mystara, the Kopru, and >neglected elements of Thanegioth and Yavi culture. I might put it into a >brief module/scenario form - if anyone is interested I would love >criticisms/comments and I'm of course willing to offer up the finished >module to anyone who wants to testrun it ... > I'm just wondering, is this going to fit in with 1st or 2nd edition AD&D psionics, or will it be unique, or have the advantages of 1st and 2nd ed set up for Mystara? I would like to see it have the advantages of both. Kopru psionics? Haven't heard of that before... David M. ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 08:17:13 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skills Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > I didnt quite catch how chances of success were figured. > Did you mention that? > Also. Did you say that your characters get extra skills for all their > atribute scores? You were a bit vague on that point. No I didnt mention that. It is the same way it is in the Gazetteers mainly. The skill is based on some attribute as in the list, and skill level above 0 gives bonus for the skill (1/level, max.5). When you want to do something you (or sometimes your GM) roll d20. if the roll is under or equal the skill, you suceed. 20 is allways a failure and 1 is a good success. When appropriate (often) the gm may give bonus or penalties on the roll, if it is easy or hard. Range I use is -9to+3. -5 is wery hard, -9 is near impossible (-10 is impossible, no roll) +2 is wery easy. The skill levels were from 0 to 5. 0 is basic knowledge of skill (apprentice), 1 is Working knowledge of skill (you could get a living with the skill, when appropriate) 2 is good, 3 is excellent (hard to learn), 4 is master (and rare), 5 is Grand master (and wery, wery rare). The gm may rule automatical successed on basic things if the skill is abowe 0 (and even before, in the wery basic things). And the higher the skill, the more basic the things get. Even if you dont have the skill, you may be familiar with most skills, and so attemp an default roll with basic -5 roll on the skill (the penalty wont get higher, as one can do only basic shores without the skill). The gm is the final ruler (as allways) on wether the skill can be used on default, and wether your backround makes you familiar with it. Also note that some things are so basic, anyone can do them automaticly. And the second question. Yes I did say so. The characters get extra skills on all they attribute-bonuses. for each +1, +2 or +3 the character gets 1, 2 or 3 skill-lots to put on the skills based on that attribute. Say a barbarian with Str 16 (+2), Dex 14 (+1) and Int 5 (-2) would get two skills based on str and one based on dex as a free bonus. How ever, no extra skills, even if the attributed would change later in the game. And the neg. bonus wont take away skills. Also here are some points: -as intelligence is needed in all work and studies, the skills gained with an Int bonus can be used to skills based on any attributes. Say with a int 13 (+1) you would gain a bonus skill on int, or you could choose a skill based on str, or dex, or anything else. -As there are wery few skills based on str and con, I usually allow those bonused to be used on weapon skills too (including those extra weapon skills in the list). But only to get more weapon skills on basic (1) level, not to suddenly become Grand master on sword or something. Though sometimes I let more than one bonus lot to be put on them extra weapon skills. I have deemd all this possible, as the characters wont get so many weapon skill on their carreer anyhow. at least, not in my DD (I have made some small changes on the weapon skills too, to better suit my needs of fast realism, but those changes i wont be writing this time, as it would be a long post. Maby some other time) I hope your questions were answered Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:54:38 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] War Machine As I see that many people here are familiar with the War Machine I've to ask them a pair of questions: 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the soldiers ? 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine > 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I > mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army > (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the > number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the > soldiers ? There is the assumption, I think, that war won't be completely abstracted. If you're a weeny officer, you get in the thick of the fighting too, and there's XP there -- consider the subsection which deals with "PC heroics." I think the implication there is that there will be roleplayed bits and tactical combat bits in there. If you're a general, the XP gain is a reflection of handling an army. How fair you think this is will vary, but it seems okay for the remarkably little work and great assumptions. For instance, as a sergeant, you get in them ditches and go hand to hand with the baddies. There's considerably more risk, and therefore you might end up getting more XP throughout the battle. As general, War Machine has given you tactics and leadership for free. > 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their > magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands > and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway > they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? In big battles, it won't matter since clearly the % of troops with magic will not change appreciably. To handle the use of charges, therefore, I suggest you move to a tactical POV. If they want to blow off 5 charges of a Wand of Fire Balls to decimate a squad or two, then roleplay that battle. If they want to assume such things, then dock charges and make adjustments to enemy numbers appropriately -- troop ratios do affect BR, as do the type of troops they choose to nuke; riders, for instance, or flyers. Just remember that the bad guys (or are your players the bad guys?) can do it too. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine On Wed, 15 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > As I see that many people here are familiar with the War Machine I've to ask > them a pair of questions: > 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I > mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army > (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the > number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the > soldiers ? I used to do it that way, but it increases the xp of top leaders way too fast anyway. So do the rules on dominion xp. A better way is too give xp based on subjective DM determination of initiative taken, skill shown, originality of tactics, etc. to PC's in a battle (regardless of rank) and just abstract completely for NPC's. Otherwise this can get very silly - look at ICE's War Law for an example, if you're familiar with Chartmaster (I mean Rolemaster!). Whenever in doubt, fake it. > 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their > magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands > and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway > they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? > I forget the details of war machine on this and I don't have my rules here. Do magic items give a bonus at all? Perhaps you should cut a tiny part of the bonus given for the PC's presence. What bonus is given for PC's without magic items? I'm sorry my memory is fuzzy on this one. m@2 ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Red Steel... On Tue, 14 May 1996, David Melik wrote: > > > > Just wanted to throw in two bits (again): I wasn't aware of the > >reference to psionics in Yavdlom, but that fact actually fits very well > >with my (admittedly bizarre) pet theory about psionics and the Kopru - > >since Yavdlom is nearer to the Thanegioth aquatic flayers than any other > >major human civilization. I don't know if my earlier post went > >unanswered because it was just plain too absurd to take (fair enough); > >but if anyone is interested I am working on supplementary > >guidelines/rules for dealing with psionicists in Mystara, the Kopru, and > >neglected elements of Thanegioth and Yavi culture. I might put it into a > >brief module/scenario form - if anyone is interested I would love > >criticisms/comments and I'm of course willing to offer up the finished > >module to anyone who wants to testrun it ... > > > I'm just wondering, is this going to fit in with 1st or 2nd edition AD&D > psionics, or will it be unique, or have the advantages of 1st and 2nd ed set > up for Mystara? > I would like to see it have the advantages of both. Kopru psionics? > Haven't heard of that before... > > David M. > > Well, first of all, of course you've never heard of Kopru psionics before, since OD&D has no psionics rules. But it has alwasy seemed obvious to me that the Kopru are related to the Illithids and that Kopru powers were intended to mimic psionics in a simplified way. I think the idea of combining the advantages of 1st and 2nd edition psionics is a good one - I probably will begin with a framework similar to 1st edition but include some of the newer powers. It is also possible I will use the new rules from the Player's Option Skills and Powers book. Player's Option seems very unpopular on this list but I have grown quite fond of some of the new rules. Anyway I think that TSR is headed that way anyway - unless they just decide to ditch it like they did with much of Unearthed Arcana, and start over again with 3rd edition. I am quite aware of TSR's tendency to grub for cash wherever possible, but I think that newer rules sometimes ARE better - I think the 2nd edition framework for character creation is a big improvement over 1st edition. The new psionics rules are in some ways more usable - the concept of mental Thaco is quite fun. I think Mystara's psionicists should be distinctive, though, mainly because they will be concentrated among the Thanegioths, the Yavi, and on the Savage Coast so they should reflect the cultures of that area - I have a kind of Voodoo-influenced feel in mind. I still haven't decided and anyway I am away from some of my books just now - most problematically I have no access to the Psionicist handbook! - so it may be a month or so before I really get rolling on it. I'll let you know though. By the way, while I'm writing I had one other thing to say: On the subject of weapon mastery, it seems to me the real issue is not realism or plausibility - the basic combat system of D&D is far too abstract for that - but rather play balance and dynamics. The problem of AD&D (1st or 2nd) is that it does not allow any real capacity for improvement in combat abilities for fighters - specialization adds a little bit but it's too flat and boring to make fighters any fun to play. Also fighter power becomes stat-based and not skill-based, which pisses me off - it only encourages ability dice-inflation which throws the original game out of whack. Thus every fighter has at least an 18/51 strength - that's just silly. On the other hand, OD&D weapon mastery throws things too far in the other direction, so that the damage caused by high level characters is patently ridiculous. I remember one character under those rules who was an ambidextrous grand master with 2 plus 5 longswords (not at all difficult too find in a standard high-powered OD&D campaign) and who caused an automatic (!!!) 70 or more points of damage per round unless he fumbled one or more of his attacks - sometimes the total was higher! While this is necessary for fighting some of the really big monsters, it makes every lesser monster no challenge at all - even normally tough mosters such as young dragons. Furthermore, any mega-powered fighter can basically kill any other mega-fighter in one round with surprise, regardless of armor class!!! With the aid of high level clerics, fighters like this can wade through dungeons without thinking, mowing down everything in sight like so much lawn grass. This can be fun for a while, but it gets silly very quickly. The advantage of level caps and lower powered weapon mastery is that while it gives decided advantages based on skill, it still allows for a tighter range of power - low level characters are not SO far removed from high level. Thus a 15th level fighter can have 3rd level fighter along as a henchman and not have him be either irrelevant or immediately killed. A 30th level fighter cannot do the same - any opponent who would challenge the head character can kill his henchmen without even thinking - this is just too much of a distance - even in super hero comics an ordinary mortal has a chance of surviving when faced with the most powerful mega-enemy. Super high powered combat systems take away the random element and make everything predictably level-based and therefore boring. In that light, I kinda like the Player's Option rules on weapon mastery - they are modelled after the OD&D rules but are reduced in power. Now you can have a grandmaster who does d10+3 base damage with a longword - a definite improvement over d8 but not as high as 4d12 or whatever fucking ridiculous amount the OD&D rules had. You can also acheive mastery at lower levels, giving mid-level characters a new edge. I haven't been playing with this system long, but it does seem to be a nice balance. Mastery, rather than conferring more damage, gives more other abilities like increased critical hits, more attacks, and special maneuvers - the best part of the OD&D rules. I have not been playing with these rules very long - just since last summer - but I quite like them so far. The critical hit rules also introduce a random element, the kind of thing that allowed two first level characters in my campaign to kill an 8th level wizard almost by accident in a bar fight. Things like this make D&D edgy, dangerous, and exciting, instead of turning it into a contest over who has higher stats or more hit dice. gaming should be about anarchy, not bureaucratic meritocracy. m@2 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #117 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 21 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 118 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 16 May 96 21:41:12 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery At 11.32 15/05/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >By the way, while I'm writing I had one other thing to say: >On the subject of weapon mastery, it seems to me the real issue is not >realism or plausibility - the basic combat system of D&D is far too >abstract for that - but rather play balance and dynamics. The problem of >AD&D (1st or 2nd) is that it does not allow any real capacity for >improvement in combat abilities for fighters - specialization adds a >little bit but it's too flat and boring to make fighters any fun to >play. Also fighter power becomes stat-based and not skill-based, which >pisses me off - it only encourages ability dice-inflation which throws >the original game out of whack. Thus every fighter has at least an 18/51 >strength - that's just silly. > >On the other hand, OD&D weapon mastery throws things too far in the other >direction, so that the damage caused by high level characters is patently >ridiculous. I remember one character under those rules who was an >ambidextrous grand master with 2 plus 5 longswords (not at all difficult >too find in a standard high-powered OD&D campaign) and who caused an >automatic (!!!) 70 or more points of damage per round unless he fumbled >one or more of his attacks - sometimes the total was higher! While this >is necessary for fighting some of the really big monsters, it makes every >lesser monster no challenge at all - even normally tough mosters such as >young dragons. Furthermore, any mega-powered >fighter can basically kill any other mega-fighter in one round with >surprise, regardless of armor class!!! With the aid of high level >clerics, fighters like this can wade through dungeons without thinking, >mowing down everything in sight like so much lawn grass. > >This can be fun for a while, but it gets silly very quickly. The >advantage of level caps and lower powered weapon mastery is that while it >gives decided advantages based on skill, it still allows for a tighter >range of power - low level characters are not SO far removed from high >level. Thus a 15th level fighter can have 3rd level fighter along as a >henchman and not have him be either irrelevant or immediately killed. A >30th level fighter cannot do the same - any opponent who would challenge >the head character can kill his henchmen without even thinking - this is >just too much of a distance - even in super hero comics an ordinary >mortal has a chance of surviving when faced with the most powerful >mega-enemy. Super high powered combat systems take away the random >element and make everything predictably level-based and therefore boring. > Ok, I agree with you: AD&D system doesn't make fighters fun to play (although I really have fun when playing my little gnome-warrior in the Realms..) and, on the other hand, OD&D Weapon Mastery is really game-noxious at high levels. The problem, IMO, is that the Weapon Mastery was designed with the idea of very few PC (or NPC) in the whole world reaching Grand Master level. I think that finding a teacher for low-level mastering (Basic, Skilled and maybe Expert) should be fairly easy, whether a Master or Grand-Master teacher should be something rare and not always willing to teach his skills to a stranger. Usually such skilled warrior are in a high powerful position in their country, so why would they teach someone that could become an enemy for them in the future. Of course there is always the chance of gaining a skill level training with a teacher of lower level, anyway this sounds me as "cheating".. Usually I try to encourage my players to specialize themselves a bit in several weapons, not just being GM with the sword and unskilled in the other weapons. Maybe they'll never use the bardiche, but who knows... After all Role Playing is not hack and slash, but playing a charachter that is neither too powerful nor too weak... and a good player should know this :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 18:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine > As I see that many people here are familiar with the War Machine I've to ask > them a pair of questions: > 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I > mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army > (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the > number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the > soldiers ? Yah, I ignore the XP system all together. If anyone has a better one, please tell me. > 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their > magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands > and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway > they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? I ignore this too :> I consider nothing to get used up. This is one of those options anyways, no? THe only time magic items get used up is when the combat is RPed out IMO. Has anyone ever considered mixing sea machine from M1/M2 with war machine when the battle is on coastland, so covers both? Or a hit-and-run pirate raid for example? Me Grimlock not care. Whole planet fall apart. Make no difference to me, Grimlock. -Grimlock With you still on it? -Wheeljack Uh....hadn't thought of that -Grimlock ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 17 May 96 15:26:58 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] X10&WotI&CoM I'm currently reading my copy of X10 to see how I should modify it to make it fit into WotI, but I've some problems with the City of Sayr Ulan. My players went there some time ago and I described it as written in CoM, showing them the enclosed map; but the description of Sayr Ulan given in X10 is totally different from the other one. How did you explained this to the players when (and if) you run WotI ? BTW: I know that X10 has been printed before CoM, but I need an explanation in game terms. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 17 May 96 15:26:54 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine At 11.27 15/05/96 -0700, you wrote: >> 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I >> mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army >> (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the >> number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the >> soldiers ? > >There is the assumption, I think, that war won't be completely >abstracted. If you're a weeny officer, you get in the thick of the >fighting too, and there's XP there -- consider the subsection which deals >with "PC heroics." I think the implication there is that there will be >roleplayed bits and tactical combat bits in there. > Ok, but in a group of PC only one can be the general of the army; the other could be his aid-de-camp, or his advisors, or maybe the general decides to split his army in several groups, each one commanded by one of his friends. What you do now ? They're all commanders, who don't fight in trenches. (BTW: I'm not creating all this stuff out of nowhere, it really happened in one of my caspaigns several years ago). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 19 May 96 13:41:54 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine At 18.28 16/05/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Has anyone ever considered mixing sea machine from M1/M2 with war machine >when the battle is on coastland, so covers both? Or a hit-and-run pirate >raid for example? IIRC you asked this some months ago too, didn't you ? I had a look at Sea Machine, but I think it's difficult to mix War and Sea Machine toghether, because Sea Machine is meant only for combat in open sea :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine > Ok, but in a group of PC only one can be the general of the army; the other > could be his aid-de-camp, or his advisors, or maybe the general decides to > split his army in several groups, each one commanded by one of his friends. > What you do now ? They're all commanders, who don't fight in trenches. > (BTW: I'm not creating all this stuff out of nowhere, it really happened in > one of my caspaigns several years ago). > The subordinates each get XP based on the size of their command. The overall commander, who has correspondingly overall responsibility, gets XP based on the size of his command -- which is everything. If responsibility is shared, then XP is shared even though only one person figures as the "leader" w.r.t. BFR (everyone else figures into officer ratings or troop ratings). Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] X10&WotI&CoM On Fri, 17 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > I'm currently reading my copy of X10 to see how I should modify it to make > it fit into WotI, but I've some problems with the City of Sayr Ulan. > My players went there some time ago and I described it as written in CoM, > showing them the enclosed map; but the description of Sayr Ulan given in X10 > is totally different from the other one. > How did you explained this to the players when (and if) you run WotI ? > > BTW: I know that X10 has been printed before CoM, but I need an explanation > in game terms. > Not a huge problem. The Sayr Ulan referred to in CoM is obviously the actual, established Sindian city of Sayr Ulan, which has been there for hundreds of years and which was simply not detailed in X10 because it was not important to the plot of the module. The Sayr Ulan described in X10 is the temporary camp built by Hosadus' troops immediately outside the actual city itself. An army that big, when encamped, would resemble a city and perhaps even have a large number of permanent buildings. For organizational reasons it was probably much simpler for Hosadus to build a new pseudo-city outside of town, rather than try to quarter his troops by displacing the Sindian population of the real city of Sayr Ulan. This is pretty plausible if you look at real-world examples like the Roman legions or Alexander's army, etc. M@2 ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery On Thu, 16 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > > Ok, I agree with you: AD&D system doesn't make fighters fun to play > (although I really have fun when playing my little gnome-warrior in the > Realms..) and, on the other hand, OD&D Weapon Mastery is really game-noxious > at high levels. > The problem, IMO, is that the Weapon Mastery was designed with the idea of > very few PC (or NPC) in the whole world reaching Grand Master level. > I think that finding a teacher for low-level mastering (Basic, Skilled and > maybe Expert) should be fairly easy, whether a Master or Grand-Master > teacher should be something rare and not always willing to teach his skills > to a stranger. Usually such skilled warrior are in a high powerful position > in their country, so why would they teach someone that could become an enemy > for them in the future. > Of course there is always the chance of gaining a skill level training with > a teacher of lower level, anyway this sounds me as "cheating".. > Usually I try to encourage my players to specialize themselves a bit in > several weapons, not just being GM with the sword and unskilled in the other > weapons. Maybe they'll never use the bardiche, but who knows... > After all Role Playing is not hack and slash, but playing a charachter that > is neither too powerful nor too weak... and a good player should know this :-) > > ************** > Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it > DM in City Of The Stars > aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr > Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 > ************** > > I can see how this all works out well for your campaign - I'm not so sure it would work in mine. This is just a matter of preference, but I really dislike the idea that "there are very few grandmasters in the world". I know D&D is about exceptional heroism at its core, but I don't believe that there has to be a hierarchy of weapons masters with just a few at the top, and I really don't buy the argument that people with higher skill levels will be in positions of power. In my campaign, high levels of mastery are of course less common than low levels, but they are pretty diffuse - weapon mastery doesn't absolutely have to be taught like a martial art, rather it is a skill developed with a great deal of experience. A career sergeant in the Thyatin army, who has fought in the colonies and against the Alphatians for 35 years of his life or more, will have a higher weapon mastery and also be much higher level than the son of a Darokinian merchant prince, who has had all the weapons trainers money can buy. Grand masters will still be rare, but they will show up From ???@??? Fri May 24 10:13:33 1996 X-UIDL: 240c6a2e89333267f5198231f09b361f Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA29482; Wed, 22 May 1996 14:19:26 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA06749 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 23:11:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 23:11:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199605220411.XAA06749@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #118 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Status: RO in the damnedest places, and often they will be poor and obscure, earning a living through fighting instead of being some sort of elite superhero famed around the world. Getting taught by another specialist should definitely help, but it should not be required - at some level a fighter should have enough understanding of the weapon to teach herself and improve through training. Level requirements are in fact the only absolute limit on weapon mastery in my game. This increases the power of characters a bit, but it also increases the power of NPC's. The game is more deadly, and PC's have to rely on their wits to AVOID combat, instead of always relying on being "the best". If there's one thing I can't stand it's a campaign where every character has a Jean Claude Van Damme fantasy of rising through some sort of championship to be the best swordsman (or best martial artist, or best burglar, most powerful wizard, whatever) in the world - this is way too abstract. Even in a fantasy world, real three dimensional people should be doing real everyday things - achieving short term goals, struggling to survive, trying to gain new knowledge, etc. This process should be complex and chaotic, and it should be about more than increasing skill. In fact, if PC's have nothing challenging them but the prospect of increasing their "ranking", then I'm not doing my job as DM. One more thing - on the subject of overspecialization in one weapon, I think using tactical bonuses for certain weapons in certain situations will help with that quite a bit. If PC's who only believe in the longsword constantly get thrashed by tightly organized formations of pole-arm bearing kobolds, they will learn that weapon length and type does matter - I wouldn't be surprised if they start specializing in Pike and Halberd. Especially in a world like Mystara, where the technological level is funky and doesn't imitate any one period faithfully, there is no reason except force of habit why PC's should be always using long swords. They should be armed with rapier and main gauche, or sabre, or zweihander, or claymore, or pike, or some other weapon more appropriate to their location and culture. With the specialized nature of certain weapons, it will not be unlikely that players will split up their specialization across different weapons. Also you can encourage characters to pick distinctive weapons just for the sake of reputation - for instance I have one PC in my Glantri campaign who insists upon carrying a Rakastan ninja-to, shurikens, a Klantyrian claymore, a Hulean-made horseman's mace, and a boomerang. He is not the best fighter in Glantri by any means, but people know his name. M@2 ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sat, 18 May 96 1:30:01 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > As I see that many people here are familiar with the War Machine I've to ask > them a pair of questions: > 1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I > mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army > (lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the > number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the > soldiers ? > 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their > magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands > and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway > they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? It's perfectly fair because you're wrong. The presence of magic in a force DOES affect the BR, wether or not they brought their wands with them could affect the BR if they had enough wands... If they brought them for personal use, then they only lose out if it turns out they need them ( remember the PC's parts in War Machine are Role Played... )... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 21 May 96 22:09:40 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine At 01.30 18/05/96 EDT, you wrote: > >> 2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their >> magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands >> and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway >> they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? > > It's perfectly fair because you're wrong. The presence of magic in >a force DOES affect the BR, wether or not they brought their wands with >them could affect the BR if they had enough wands... If they brought them >for personal use, then they only lose out if it turns out they need them ( >remember the PC's parts in War Machine are Role Played... )... > The presence of magic in a force does affect the BR, but a bunch of PC bringing with them 1 or 2 wands doesn't affect the BR substantially. Moreover PC parts in War Machine can be played but if a normal adventure is not played the rules state what I wrote above. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 21 May 96 22:09:36 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery At 13.07 17/05/96 -0700, Matthew Levy wrote: >experience. A career sergeant in the Thyatin army, who has fought in the >colonies and against the Alphatians for 35 years of his life or more, >will have a higher weapon mastery and also be much higher level than the >son of a Darokinian merchant prince, who has had all the weapons trainers >money can buy. Grand masters will still be rare, but they will show up >in the damnedest places, and often they will be poor and obscure, earning >a living through fighting instead of being some sort of elite superhero >famed around the world. > A career sergeant in the Thyatian army will not be of a level higher than 5th (see the "Armies of the world" section in PWA2), so he will not have more than 5 slots for Weapon Mastery and, since the first 4 slots can't be used in the same weapon, he will be of Skilled level in a weapon at most. After succesfully spending 35 years fighting in the army he would probably have reached at least the rank of Deputy General (F10) of a division if not the rank of General (F12) itself. This would allow him to have 7 or 8 slot of Weapon Mastery, just what he need to reach GM in a weapon. On the other hand, if he entered the army when he was 20, now he would be 55 years old. It would be quite disappointing of being still a sergeant at 55 ! ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Jason MURPHY Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:38:47 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery On Tue, 21 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 13.07 17/05/96 -0700, Matthew Levy wrote: > > > > A career sergeant in the Thyatian army will not be of a level higher than > 5th (see the "Armies of the world" section in PWA2), so he will not have > more than 5 slots for Weapon Mastery and, since the first 4 slots can't be > used in the same weapon, he will be of Skilled level in a weapon at most. > After succesfully spending 35 years fighting in the army he would probably > have reached at least the rank of Deputy General (F10) of a division if not > the rank of General (F12) itself. This would allow him to have 7 or 8 slot > of Weapon Mastery, just what he need to reach GM in a weapon. > On the other hand, if he entered the army when he was 20, now he would be 55 > years old. It would be quite disappointing of being still a sergeant at 55 ! > > ************** > Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it > DM in City Of The Stars > aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr > Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 > ************** > I know this is only fantasy, but, Career seargants in real world armies today often have 20+ years experience. Remember senior NCO's have alot more respect than junior Commissioned officers. They are actually considered the backbone of the armed forces. And any junior officer who disregards the suggestion of his 20 years exp seargant better have a damn good reason, or he would risk court martial. As the thyatian army is based on the Byzantine/Roman style, I believe that they actually had this modern style instilled in their armed forces due to the predominantly professional army. I guess what i am saying is that it is not to rare to see a 25 or even 30 years exp career seargant... Hey just look at Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge. I could be wrong tho :) Jason ------------------------------ From: Jason Zavoda Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery > > A career sergeant in the Thyatian army will not be of a level higher than > > 5th (see the "Armies of the world" section in PWA2), so he will not have /snip/ > > After succesfully spending 35 years fighting in the army he would probably > > have reached at least the rank of Deputy General (F10) of a division if not > > the rank of General (F12) itself. This would allow him to have 7 or 8 slot /snip/ I always try to base my campaigns on the real world. I find that if I lesson the amount of disbelief that my players have to suspend then the game is more enjoyable. In the real world I know of few cultures where a ruler or military leader had to have exceptional combat ability. The English military had many career NCOs as did the Roman Empire two millenia ago. These individuals would not have been elevated in social standing or rank simply for serving for thirty-five years as combat troops. The American Calvary at the end of the 1860s had more combat veterans than they new what to do with. Men who had been officers during the American Civil War were reduced to NCO or Private soldiers. It could take ten years service to go from trooper to corporal and few NCOs ever made it to officer. In my camapign rulers are sometimes very low level, generals are appointed for politcal favors and military rank is often purchased. Quite often grizzled combat veterans hold very low rank yet are very high level in ability. Jason Zavoda ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery On Tue, 21 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 13.07 17/05/96 -0700, Matthew Levy wrote: > > > >experience. A career sergeant in the Thyatin army, who has fought in the > >colonies and against the Alphatians for 35 years of his life or more, > >will have a higher weapon mastery and also be much higher level than the > >son of a Darokinian merchant prince, who has had all the weapons trainers > >money can buy. Grand masters will still be rare, but they will show up > >in the damnedest places, and often they will be poor and obscure, earning > >a living through fighting instead of being some sort of elite superhero > >famed around the world. > > > A career sergeant in the Thyatian army will not be of a level higher than > 5th (see the "Armies of the world" section in PWA2), so he will not have > more than 5 slots for Weapon Mastery and, since the first 4 slots can't be > used in the same weapon, he will be of Skilled level in a weapon at most. > After succesfully spending 35 years fighting in the army he would probably > have reached at least the rank of Deputy General (F10) of a division if not > the rank of General (F12) itself. This would allow him to have 7 or 8 slot > of Weapon Mastery, just what he need to reach GM in a weapon. > On the other hand, if he entered the army when he was 20, now he would be 55 > years old. It would be quite disappointing of being still a sergeant at 55 ! > > ************** > Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it > DM in City Of The Stars > aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr > Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 > ************** > > Wrong, wrong, wrong. That may be what PWA2 says but it is just patently silly. In the real world there are plenty of sergeants who stay sergeants till they are 55 years old, in every army of the world, and not because they are incompetent - it is precisely because they ARE competent that they are kept aroung as "old hands". Anybody who knows anything about the structure of the military (in any system or age) can tell you that rank often has more to do with social status and connections than experience and that most enlisted men, regardless of talent, stay enlisted men. The sergeants in a Thyatin unit should be if anything HIGHER level than the junior commissioned officers and should be MORE deadly in hand to hand combat. Lieutenants should be first level fighters whose only qualification is their social class and maybe some training in tactics. The TSR published supplements have a lot of mistakes like this that are not just unrealistic but also totally implausible in a fantasy universe. Especially with regard to the nightmarishly complex bureaucracy of Thyatin society, this effect should be increased - there should be lots of officers even at the top ranks who are incompetent or even inexperienced. When you look at actual modules or NPC's in campaign settings, you will often find 3rd level captains and 8th level sergeants - don't think so linearly. M@2 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #118 ***************************** From ???@??? Mon May 27 10:54:22 1996 X-UIDL: 5ed91f5641d3c45863ca25433ba43171 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA02235; Sun, 26 May 1996 16:51:19 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA11304 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 13:56:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:56:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199605241856.NAA11304@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #119 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, 24 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 119 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > > A career sergeant in the Thyatian army will not be of a level higher than > 5th (see the "Armies of the world" section in PWA2), so he will not have > more than 5 slots for Weapon Mastery and, since the first 4 slots can't be > used in the same weapon, he will be of Skilled level in a weapon at most. > After succesfully spending 35 years fighting in the army he would probably > have reached at least the rank of Deputy General (F10) of a division if not > the rank of General (F12) itself. This would allow him to have 7 or 8 slot > of Weapon Mastery, just what he need to reach GM in a weapon. > On the other hand, if he entered the army when he was 20, now he would be 55 > years old. It would be quite disappointing of being still a sergeant at 55 ! > To me, rule books are just guidelines on how to play the games. It is not set in stone and if it doesn't make sense for certain situation, it should be modified. If there are a reason for a low level fighter to be grand master in a certain weapon, then the DM should allows it, instead of saying no because the rule says so. For example, imagine someone that have been trained 16 hours a day on how to use a spear since he was five for twenty years. He have never went on to adventuring or fought in live-or-die situations. He should be a low level fighter because he don't really know how to defend himself except using his weapon (ie. low hp) and unable to react fast enough in dangerous situations (ie. bad saving throws). But with all the experience in that one weapon, he could very well be master in spear. The weapon mystery slot per certain level is simply ways for game balance, not necessary if you have some other ways of prevent them to became abusive. Actually, in the Companion set, in a mini-adventure in the end have a character that is a NM but shoot bow as a 7th level fighter. As for 55 year old sergent, I don't think that is that unusual even in the army today. The step between enlisted men and officer is pretty difficult to cross. But I think the US military retires people after twenty years of service now. This just hit me. Should the advancement on weapon mastry be related to the ability score? Some one that is slow and dumb should not about to became a skilled swordsman, because he don't have enough talent. How about this (I'm doing this on the fly, so it is probably not that great an idea): Any one can get basic mastary, but to advance farther they need to have about average ability. Take Skilled as level 1, Expert as level 2, Master as 3, and G.M. as 4 (this are the level right? I haven't look at the books in about an year). In order to advance the sum of ability score bonus of INT, WIS, and DEX divided by two round up needs to be as high as the level of mastary you intend to obtain. Therefore to achieve Skilled weapon mastary, the character needs at least a 13 in one of the three ability scores. But to obtain Grand Master, he need a total bonus of at least +7, such as 18 in one and 16+ in other two (oh yeah, this is based on OD&D rules). I included INT because it is needed to understand and comprehend difficult maneuvers and WIS is needed bacause will and patient is needed to achieve high mastary. I need to go now, leaving for home for couple of weeks early tomorrow. So, I wouldn't able to make any replys until I came back. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "D.J. Sahlas" Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] so long for now Just a quick note to thank everybody for the great discussion and exchange of ideas about the most intricate FRPG world ever to evolve. I've finished school in Hamilton and start work on July 1st in Montreal, after spending the next few weeks in and around the Aegean. I look forward to hooking up with the mailing list again when I get my new e-mail account, so until then, have a great summer! Jim Sahlas ------------------------------ From: Henrik Nordhus Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 16:09:46 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery At 20:03 21.05.96 -0700, Matthew Levy wrote: >Wrong, wrong, wrong. That may be what PWA2 says but it is just patently >silly. In the real world there are plenty of sergeants who stay >sergeants till they are 55 years old, in every army of the world, and not >because they are incompetent - it is precisely because they ARE competent >that they are kept aroung as "old hands". Anybody who knows anything >about the structure of the military (in any system or age) can tell you >that rank often has more to do with social status and connections than >experience and that most enlisted men, regardless of talent, stay >enlisted men. The sergeants in a Thyatin unit should be if anything >HIGHER level than the junior commissioned officers and should be MORE >deadly in hand to hand combat. Lieutenants should be first level >fighters whose only qualification is their social class and maybe some >training in tactics. The TSR published supplements have a lot of >mistakes like this that are not just unrealistic but also totally >implausible in a fantasy universe. Especially with regard to the >nightmarishly complex bureaucracy of Thyatin society, this effect should >be increased - there should be lots of officers even at the top ranks who >are incompetent or even inexperienced. When you look at actual modules >or NPC's in campaign settings, you will often find 3rd level captains and >8th level sergeants - don't think so linearly. Seconded! As a history student I thought it might be interesting for you to know a little bit about the byzantine army of the real world. (As thyatia is supposed to be based on Byzants). Early on, the east-roman army was mainly a mercenary army. As is often the case, this army wasn't too loyal or dependable, worrying about nothing else but the following question : Is the pay worth the risk? That was why the emperor Heraclios (610-641) invented the system of (I think the English name is) tene(t)s, or military districts. The soldiers got their own patch of land, in exchange for military service. Each tene(?) could mobilize 10.000 men under the leadership of a STRATEG. This system led to a less profecissonal army (lower levels?) that had the advantage of being more loyal, and cheaper to finance. These men had home and hearth to fight for. This system might be considered for inclusion in a Thyatian campaign, what do you think? - ----------------------------------------------- Henrik Nordhus __ Hausmannsgt. 34 )^^( 0182 Oslo ^^ NORWAY IF THIS MESSAGE Phone : 22207746 WAS MEANINGFUL : DESTROY IT AT ONCE! E-Mail : Henrik.nordhus@hfstud.uio.no - ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:22:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery At 12:57 AM 5/22/96 -0400, John Yu wrote: >This just hit me. Should the advancement on weapon mastry be related >to the ability score? Some one that is slow and dumb should not about >to became a skilled swordsman, because he don't have enough talent. >How about this (I'm doing this on the fly, so it is probably not that >great an idea): Any one can get basic mastary, but to advance farther >they need to have about average ability. Take Skilled as level 1, >Expert as level 2, Master as 3, and G.M. as 4 (this are the level >right? I haven't look at the books in about an year). In order to >advance the sum of ability score bonus of INT, WIS, and DEX divided by >two round up needs to be as high as the level of mastary you intend >to obtain. Therefore to achieve Skilled weapon mastary, the character >needs at least a 13 in one of the three ability scores. But to >obtain Grand Master, he need a total bonus of at least +7, such as >18 in one and 16+ in other two (oh yeah, this is based on OD&D rules). >I included INT because it is needed to understand and comprehend >difficult maneuvers and WIS is needed bacause will and patient is >needed to achieve high mastary. There are rules for this sort of thing but only as it applies to INT, in the Orcs of Thar gazetteer. The point there is to allow humanoids to gain mastery, but not to a level that seems ridiculous relative to their 'smarts.' I actually see no reason why such INT req.s shouldn't apply to everyone else too. It gives fighters (and other characters) an incentive to value intelligence, which normally has little impact on the game (especially in OD&D). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ David "Azure" Leland ~~~ e-mail: azure@cs.oberlin.edu ~~ ~~ Oberlin College ~~~ snail-mail: OCMR 1375 / Oberlin, OH 44074 ~~ ~~ **Creative Writing ~~~ phone/fax: (216) 775-5582 ~~ ~~ **Cognitive Science ~~~ WWW: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weapon Mastery > > This just hit me. Should the advancement on weapon mastry be related > to the ability score? Some one that is slow and dumb should not about > to became a skilled swordsman, because he don't have enough talent. I disagree, unless you're big into rules of the type used in AD&D for demi-human advancement, which limits character levels by stats. This is essentially what you're proposing, even though you've restricted yourself to Weapon Mastery here. Ability scores have been taken into account by giving you more proficiency slots (I think...) to begin. Whether you have 3 in all scores or 18 in all scores, you get to advance (faster or slower) toward L36 whatever you are (and if you survive, somehow). Therefore, with enough work, you should get to advance to GrandMaster in any weapon you are able to use. Since characters with low scores are penalized for XP, you could require more time and money for those with low scores to achieve each tier of mastery. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: TSRInc@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:09:13 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Shadow Elves on MPGN FYI, I have uploaded official info on the Shadow Elves to ftp.mpgn.com (TSR's licensed ftp site). The files are in the Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara directory. This info is adapted from the Gazeteers and updated by Roger Moore. Oh, and I'm on DIGEST mode for this list, so please cc: me personally if you have a reply to this message that you'd like me to publically respond to. - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu May 23 23:22:02 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 23 May 96 19:22 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA29778 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 16:28:23 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA29692 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 16:15:10 -0500 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11632 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 16:09:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA27979 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 23 May 1996 17:09:13 -0400 From: TSRInc@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:09:13 -0400 Message-ID: <960523170913_541419826@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Shadow Elves on MPGN Content-Length: 491 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com FYI, I have uploaded official info on the Shadow Elves to ftp.mpgn.com (TSR's licensed ftp site). The files are in the Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara directory. This info is adapted from the Gazeteers and updated by Roger Moore. Oh, and I'm on DIGEST mode for this list, so please cc: me personally if you have a reply to this message that you'd like me to publically respond to. - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 21:55:51 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elves on MPGN > FYI, I have uploaded official info on the Shadow Elves to > ftp.mpgn.com (TSR's licensed ftp site). The files are in the > > Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara > > directory. This info is adapted from the Gazeteers and updated > by Roger Moore. One of the files refers to the TSR Online "Download of the Month" on "Chronomancy and the Multiverse.", so: [Time travel using rules from the AD&D accessory might be used in an attempt to destroy this artifact, by going back in time and preventing the crash of the starship or otherwise messing with events, but this possibility was anticipated and will be blocked by Rafiel and other Immortals. See for details, or see the TSR Online "Download of the Month" on "Chronomancy and the Multiverse."--Roger.] However, I seem to be unable to find it on either the Temporary TSR Info page or the MPGN FTP site. If the file is only on AOL (which I might point out isn't accessable to most Internet users, but you already know that), would it be possible to forward it to myself or the Mystara mailing list? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: stein1 Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 04:44:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elves on MPGN On Thu, 23 May 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > However, I seem to be unable to find it on either the Temporary TSR Info > page or the MPGN FTP site. If the file is only on AOL (which I might > point out isn't accessable to most Internet users, but you already know > that), would it be possible to forward it to myself or the Mystara > mailing list? Isn't part of the AOL deal that some material will be AOL-exclusive (uploaded to AOL only) for a _limited_ periood, after which TSR will make it available on MGPN ? I seem to recall this statement from Sean multiple times over on rec.games.frp.dnd - all we need is a little patience, ya know ? ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:28:38 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] The Military (was: Weapon Mastery) My last posting raised much disagreement among other Mystarans; at first I decided not to reply to all those "wrong, wrong, wrong", then I changed my mind and here I am again. First of all I've to say that I don't know very much about real world military structure, NCO, ranks, armies and the like, so I must agree to your reasonable remarks on this matter. Anyway my former posting was about a fantasy world and a TSR supplement (PWA2) that I consider a good guideline for Mystara armies, so I would be glad if we keep our discussion on Mystara terms, though I know that a fantasy world is always inspired by the real world. End of preface, now starts the real posting. 1) Real World vs. Fantasy World IMO there are several big differences between a real world army and a fantasy world army. Roman soldiers where mostly former farmers and fighting was the only way of gaining a better social status, but in a fantasy world there is plenty of opportunies to do that: - - Adventuring: in a fantasy world a Sergeant who, after serving in yhe army for 35 years, see himself commanded by a young unexperienced son of a damned Thyatian senator will surely leave the army, put up a group of adventurers and go around killing monster in the Isle of Dawn, in the Hinterlands or anywhere he wants in Mystara. - - Nobles: another opportunity for the above-mentioned Sergeant is to become noble after reaching 9th level. He can be given a dominion somewhere in the Hinterlands, or on the Isle of Dawn, or he can find a piece of land Norwold. And these are just 2 examples. 2) Experience Points XP (and thus level) aren't just a series of figures written on a piece of paper: a character's XP means his fame, his knowledge, his cleverness in understanding what's happening around him and acting as needed. This is, IMO, the reason for having an army structured by level with the General being the one with the most XP and so on down to the 1st level soldiers. The General needn't have nor exceptional combat skills (THAC0 and Weapon Mastery) neither many hp, but this usually happens because a General has to be famous among his troops, to know military tactics, i.e. he needs combat experience so he will inevitably be of high level. 3) Thyatian Army Probably the Thyatian army is not a good example of military structure, because of well known Thyatian corruption. On the other hand, this army is one of the most powerful (perhaps _the_ most powerful) "conventional" (i.e. not heavy magical) in the KW, and I don't think that this would be possible if at least 3/4 of his officers are competent. Obviously some generals are appointed for political favors and military rank is sometimes purchased, but this are exception. Last thing: all this stuff about army leaders and officers being experienced is taken into account in the War Machine combat system when calculating the BFR (Leadership Factor and Experience Factor). OK, that's all. Have fun. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: TSRInc@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 11:23:01 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse By request, here's the relevant info for a Chronomancy campaign in the Mystara setting taken from the "Chronomancy & the Multiverse" file by Roger Moore. I'm sending it to the list because it would take a few days to get it in the public area on MPGN. ========================================= Chronomancy & the Multiverse, version 1.1 By Roger E. Moore, with enormous assistance from Jim Butler, William Connors, Andria Hayday, Bruce Heard, Steve Miller, Jon Pickens, Bill Slavicsek, Skip Williams, and David Wise. (C)1995 TSR, Inc. All Rights Reserved. (R) & (TM) indicate trademarks of TSR, Inc. is a 96-page booklet for TSR's AD&D(R) game that presents, for the first time ever, a school of wizard's magic that allows player characters to travel through Time itself, in almost any campaign world. This article is an updated and expanded excerpt from the accessory. It describes how these rules for time travel can be merged with any of the major official campaigns for the AD&D game. Many game designers, editors, and creative directors have added their comments to make this material more complete and interesting; to them I give my eternal thanks. Time travel is known to a handful of wizards on a number of worlds, but chronomancers face restrictions in particular campaigns, especially when powerful deities and secret organizations devote themselves to preserving their worlds' histories. Deities also wish to preserve their worshipers, and From ???@??? Mon May 27 10:54:22 1996 X-UIDL: 5ed91f5641d3c45863ca25433ba43171 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA02235; Sun, 26 May 1996 16:51:19 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA11304 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 13:56:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:56:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199605241856.NAA11304@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #119 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk those gods will fight any historical changes that would harm their faithful, who are a source of power for those gods. (Evil gods, of course, might wish to alter time and destroy their competitors.) Particulars for using chronomancy in each of TSR's official AD&D campaign worlds follow. Dungeon Masters should very carefully examine their campaign timelines and historical notes, paying attention to possible discrepancies in dates and "blank spots" in recorded histories, if preparing a time-travel campaign therein. Considerable development of changing kingdoms and landscapes across time will be required, so DMs are advised to select a few important periods in their campaign timelines, develop those in detail, and encourage players to use those times in particular. DMs should also carefully check the limitations on how much time can typically be crossed using normal chronomancy spells; particularly remote times can be reached only with powerful magical items or by braving the dangers of multiple vortices in Temporal Prime. ((Historical Reference campaign)): The seven volumes in the HR series describe Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East of Earth across a variety of historical periods, from 2200 B.C. (HR6 ) to A.D. 1650 (HR4 ). Magic is assumed to be possible, though it is limited in nature and normal technological development occurs at the same time. Certain historical figures of this "magic Earth" may have had limited knowledge of chronomancy, given their reputed predictive or magical abilities (e.g., Nostradamus, Roger Bacon, Michael Scot, Dr. John Dee). Mythical figures with extraordinary magical powers might have time-traveling abilities, too (e.g., Oracle at Delphi, Merlin, Morgan le Fay). Fabled Atlantis, said to have existed in the distant past, might be the home of a Guardians-like force of Temporal Champions. The legendary ogre-witch Baba Yaga has likely been time traveling as well as world-hopping (see DRAGON(R) issue #83, "The Dancing Hut," and the recent module ). There is evidence that Heward and Murlynd (see GREYHAWK campaign) have been to this world, during this and other time periods. Elminster (see FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign) has gates in his "hideout" in Realmspace leading to various times and places in Earth history (see , pages 51-52). In the MYSTARA(R) adventure (page 62), a wizardess from the fantastic French province of Averoigne is said to have invented , with which she explored Earth's history for her own amusement. She now lives in Glantri, maintaining her youth with other magical potions. Averoigne could be part of a magical Europe around A.D. 1600 in HR4 , and this wizardess could be met at various times through Earth's history prior to her move to the world of Mystara. The RAVENLOFT(R) campaign expansion, , shows this same magical Earth in the late 19th century, though with a dark strain of horror. (The world is here nicknamed "Gothic Earth.") H.G. Wells published in 1895; if this tale is assumed to be in part autobiographical, he would be the only known time traveler from this period, and his time machine would be equal to an artifact. It is possible that a far-future group of technological time travelers will be created in an alternate future to patrol Earth's history as a sort of "time police." If encountered, these officers could be easily designed using materials from the GAMMA WORLD(R) game (e.g., with grenades, powered armor, blasters, and vibroblades when traveling heavy). The GAMMA WORLD game itself could depict an alternate future of Earth; this system is largely compatible with the AD&D game. A few mutant humans or animals might have the Time Field Manipulation mutation and thus meet up with actual chronomancers (see the GAMMA WORLD 1st Edition game (1978), page 14). Psionic time travelers with time-related psychoportive sciences and devotions are possible; these could hail from any period in human history, past or future. Nonhuman psionic or magical time travelers are also possible, but none are known. ((MYSTARA(R)/BLACKMOOR(R)/HOLLOW WORLD(R)/RED STEEL(R) campaign)): Chronomancy was known to the wizards of Alphatia, but all Alphatian chronomancers were destroyed by an unknown Immortal after they attempted to visit the long-lost techno-magical empire of Blackmoor during its last few years and at the time of the global disaster that destroyed that nation. One investigator of the loss of the Alphatians believes the Immortals Rafiel and possibly Rad (a.k.a. Etienne d'Amberville) are defending a prehistoric secret somehow connected with the Radiance of Glantri. Despite the dangers associated with visiting Blackmoor, some adventurers have reported actually visiting a place called the Kingdom of Blackmoor, meeting personages known to current historians to have lived at that ancient time. Such voyages were accomplished by accident; the adventurers said they were trapped in the basement of a ruined building in the Broken Lands, and were then transported to Blackmoor of 3,000 years past by a magical time gate that was possibly controlled by the rulers of Blackmoor. This ruin is of obvious interest to chronomancers; if it exists, it likely opens into a long-duration vortex in Temporal Prime. (For more information, see the D&D(R) modules DA1 , DA2 , DA3 , and DA4 .) No Guardians-like group of chronomancers is known here, as the Immortals of Time do a fine job of policing. Unobtrusive chronomancers would have considerable freedom; furthermore, they might gain the cautious notice of Immortals from Energy or Time (particularly Ixion or Khoronus), who might be bribed at tremendous expense to reveal other secrets of chronomancy or Mystaran history. Immortals of Time carefully shunt time travelers "around" critical events in history, so that all attempts to reach those times are missed by days, months, or years. Time travelers perceived as dangerously hostile to Mystaran history are located and destroyed without ceremony or delay. No chronomancer can use time-travel powers, either arriving or departing, during the Day of Dread (Kaldmont 28), from AC 1009 onward. The most important Immortals of Time are described in the boxed set, in ; see especially Ixion (page 23), Khoronus (pages 25-26), Rad (pages 33-34), and Rafiel (page 34). Several major elven Immortals are from the Sphere of Time, but they are largely concerned with maintaining the elven race and the natural environment. One curious aspect of time travel here concerns the future of magic on Mystara. Some sages believe, for reasons they will not disclose, that all magic on Mystara is doomed to fade away in the far future. (This situation seems somehow connected to the actions of Rad and the Radiance of Glantri.) Indeed, for a time there were reports of humanoid creatures called "oards" appearing across the Known World. Oards, who seemed to all look alike, were said to have been manufactured in the far future, and their bodies were both flesh and machine. They were able to disguise and defend themselves using means other than magical, and were extraordinarily powerful. A few wizards have attempted to go into the far future of Mystara to investigate these creatures and their world first-hand, but none have returned. Perhaps they were (will be?) stranded there, far in advance of our time, with no magic left in the world to bring themselves home. Or perhaps they were (will be?) caught by the oards or other beings, suffering fates that cannot be guessed. Questioning Khoronus or other Immortals on the nature of oards yields no responses. (See the 1986 edition of the D&D , pages 42-43, for more on oards.) Rumors sometimes pass through Glantri that a local wizard has rediscovered the lost secrets of chronomancy, but this has never been proven. Note the mention of a time-traveling Glantri wizardess from Averoigne (see Historical Reference) in (page 62). Though not a true chronomancer, she could be encountered all across Mystara's timeline, using her potions to cross time itself. Humans, elves, and half-elves are the most likely chronomancer races here. However, time travelers might also meet up with a jackal-headed humanoid race also using Temporal Prime: the hutaakans of Karameikos, who can achieve chronomancer levels roughly equal to those gained by half-elves. END FILE - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri May 24 17:21:53 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 24 May 96 13:21 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA09588 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:45:31 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA09495 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:32:54 -0500 Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA02497 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:23:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA08219 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 24 May 1996 11:23:01 -0400 From: TSRInc@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 11:23:01 -0400 Message-ID: <960524112300_120250695@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse Content-Length: 10345 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com By request, here's the relevant info for a Chronomancy campaign in the Mystara setting taken from the "Chronomancy & the Multiverse" file by Roger Moore. I'm sending it to the list because it would take a few days to get it in the public area on MPGN. ========================================= Chronomancy & the Multiverse, version 1.1 By Roger E. Moore, with enormous assistance from Jim Butler, William Connors, Andria Hayday, Bruce Heard, Steve Miller, Jon Pickens, Bill Slavicsek, Skip Williams, and David Wise. (C)1995 TSR, Inc. All Rights Reserved. (R) & (TM) indicate trademarks of TSR, Inc. is a 96-page booklet for TSR's AD&D(R) game that presents, for the first time ever, a school of wizard's magic that allows player characters to travel through Time itself, in almost any campaign world. This article is an updated and expanded excerpt from the accessory. It describes how these rules for time travel can be merged with any of the major official campaigns for the AD&D game. Many game designers, editors, and creative directors have added their comments to make this material more complete and interesting; to them I give my eternal thanks. Time travel is known to a handful of wizards on a number of worlds, but chronomancers face restrictions in particular campaigns, especially when powerful deities and secret organizations devote themselves to preserving their worlds' histories. Deities also wish to preserve their worshipers, and those gods will fight any historical changes that would harm their faithful, who are a source of power for those gods. (Evil gods, of course, might wish to alter time and destroy their competitors.) Particulars for using chronomancy in each of TSR's official AD&D campaign worlds follow. Dungeon Masters should very carefully examine their campaign timelines and historical notes, paying attention to possible discrepancies in dates and "blank spots" in recorded histories, if preparing a time-travel campaign therein. Considerable development of changing kingdoms and landscapes across time will be required, so DMs are advised to select a few important periods in their campaign timelines, develop those in detail, and encourage players to use those times in particular. DMs should also carefully check the limitations on how much time can typically be crossed using normal chronomancy spells; particularly remote times can be reached only with powerful magical items or by braving the dangers of multiple vortices in Temporal Prime. ((Historical Reference campaign)): The seven volumes in the HR series describe Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East of Earth across a variety of historical periods, from 2200 B.C. (HR6 ) to A.D. 1650 (HR4 ). Magic is assumed to be possible, though it is limited in nature and normal technological development occurs at the same time. Certain historical figures of this "magic Earth" may have had limited knowledge of chronomancy, given their reputed predictive or magical abilities (e.g., Nostradamus, Roger Bacon, Michael Scot, Dr. John Dee). Mythical figures with extraordinary magical powers might have time-traveling abilities, too (e.g., Oracle at Delphi, Merlin, Morgan le Fay). Fabled Atlantis, said to have existed in the distant past, might be the home of a Guardians-like force of Temporal Champions. The legendary ogre-witch Baba Yaga has likely been time traveling as well as world-hopping (see DRAGON(R) issue #83, "The Dancing Hut," and the recent module ). There is evidence that Heward and Murlynd (see GREYHAWK campaign) have been to this world, during this and other time periods. Elminster (see FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign) has gates in his "hideout" in Realmspace leading to various times and places in Earth history (see , pages 51-52). In the MYSTARA(R) adventure (page 62), a wizardess from the fantastic French province of Averoigne is said to have invented , with which she explored Earth's history for her own amusement. She now lives in Glantri, maintaining her youth with other magical potions. Averoigne could be part of a magical Europe around A.D. 1600 in HR4 , and this wizardess could be met at various times through Earth's history prior to her move to the world of Mystara. The RAVENLOFT(R) campaign expansion, , shows this same magical Earth in the late 19th century, though with a dark strain of horror. (The world is here nicknamed "Gothic Earth.") H.G. Wells published in 1895; if this tale is assumed to be in part autobiographical, he would be the only known time traveler from this period, and his time machine would be equal to an artifact. It is possible that a far-future group of technological time travelers will be created in an alternate future to patrol Earth's history as a sort of "time police." If encountered, these officers could be easily designed using materials from the GAMMA WORLD(R) game (e.g., with grenades, powered armor, blasters, and vibroblades when traveling heavy). The GAMMA WORLD game itself could depict an alternate future of Earth; this system is largely compatible with the AD&D game. A few mutant humans or animals might have the Time Field Manipulation mutation and thus meet up with actual chronomancers (see the GAMMA WORLD 1st Edition game (1978), page 14). Psionic time travelers with time-related psychoportive sciences and devotions are possible; these could hail from any period in human history, past or future. Nonhuman psionic or magical time travelers are also possible, but none are known. ((MYSTARA(R)/BLACKMOOR(R)/HOLLOW WORLD(R)/RED STEEL(R) campaign)): Chronomancy was known to the wizards of Alphatia, but all Alphatian chronomancers were destroyed by an unknown Immortal after they attempted to visit the long-lost techno-magical empire of Blackmoor during its last few years and at the time of the global disaster that destroyed that nation. One investigator of the loss of the Alphatians believes the Immortals Rafiel and possibly Rad (a.k.a. Etienne d'Amberville) are defending a prehistoric secret somehow connected with the Radiance of Glantri. Despite the dangers associated with visiting Blackmoor, some adventurers have reported actually visiting a place called the Kingdom of Blackmoor, meeting personages known to current historians to have lived at that ancient time. Such voyages were accomplished by accident; the adventurers said they were trapped in the basement of a ruined building in the Broken Lands, and were then transported to Blackmoor of 3,000 years past by a magical time gate that was possibly controlled by the rulers of Blackmoor. This ruin is of obvious interest to chronomancers; if it exists, it likely opens into a long-duration vortex in Temporal Prime. (For more information, see the D&D(R) modules DA1 , DA2 , DA3 , and DA4 .) No Guardians-like group of chronomancers is known here, as the Immortals of Time do a fine job of policing. Unobtrusive chronomancers would have considerable freedom; furthermore, they might gain the cautious notice of Immortals from Energy or Time (particularly Ixion or Khoronus), who might be bribed at tremendous expense to reveal other secrets of chronomancy or Mystaran history. Immortals of Time carefully shunt time travelers "around" critical events in history, so that all attempts to reach those times are missed by days, months, or years. Time travelers perceived as dangerously hostile to Mystaran history are located and destroyed without ceremony or delay. No chronomancer can use time-travel powers, either arriving or departing, during the Day of Dread (Kaldmont 28), from AC 1009 onward. The most important Immortals of Time are described in the boxed set, in ; see especially Ixion (page 23), Khoronus (pages 25-26), Rad (pages 33-34), and Rafiel (page 34). Several major elven Immortals are from the Sphere of Time, but they are largely concerned with maintaining the elven race and the natural environment. One curious aspect of time travel here concerns the future of magic on Mystara. Some sages believe, for reasons they will not disclose, that all magic on Mystara is doomed to fade away in the far future. (This situation seems somehow connected to the actions of Rad and the Radiance of Glantri.) Indeed, for a time there were reports of humanoid creatures called "oards" appearing across the Known World. Oards, who seemed to all look alike, were said to have been manufactured in the far future, and their bodies were both flesh and machine. They were able to disguise and defend themselves using means other than magical, and were extraordinarily powerful. A few wizards have attempted to go into the far future of Mystara to investigate these creatures and their world first-hand, but none have returned. Perhaps they were (will be?) stranded there, far in advance of our time, with no magic left in the world to bring themselves home. Or perhaps they were (will be?) caught by the oards or other beings, suffering fates that cannot be guessed. Questioning Khoronus or other Immortals on the nature of oards yields no responses. (See the 1986 edition of the D&D , pages 42-43, for more on oards.) Rumors sometimes pass through Glantri that a local wizard has rediscovered the lost secrets of chronomancy, but this has never been proven. Note the mention of a time-traveling Glantri wizardess from Averoigne (see Historical Reference) in (page 62). Though not a true chronomancer, she could be encountered all across Mystara's timeline, using her potions to cross time itself. Humans, elves, and half-elves are the most likely chronomancer races here. However, time travelers might also meet up with a jackal-headed humanoid race also using Temporal Prime: the hutaakans of Karameikos, who can achieve chronomancer levels roughly equal to those gained by half-elves. END FILE - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #119 ***************************** mystara-digest Saturday, 25 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 120 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jason Zavoda Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Military (was: Weapon Mastery) On Fri, 24 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > My last posting raised much disagreement among other Mystarans; at first I > decided not to reply to all those "wrong, wrong, wrong", then I changed my > mind and here I am again. I think that there was a bit of overkill on the responses to your post. I know that I meant to respond as a differing viewpoint and if it came out as a criticism I apologize. I still disagree and I will explain but this is IMO only and an example of my own DMing. > Anyway my former posting was about a fantasy world and a TSR supplement > (PWA2) that I consider a good guideline for Mystara armies, so I would be > glad if we keep our discussion on Mystara terms, though I know that a > fantasy world is always inspired by the real world. > End of preface, now starts the real posting. > > 1) Real World vs. Fantasy World > IMO there are several big differences between a real world army and a > fantasy world army. Roman soldiers where mostly former farmers and fighting > was the only way of gaining a better social status, but in a fantasy world > there is plenty of opportunies to do that: > - Adventuring: in a fantasy world a Sergeant who, after serving in yhe army > for 35 years, see himself commanded by a young unexperienced son of a damned > Thyatian senator will surely leave the army, put up a group of adventurers > and go around killing monster in the Isle of Dawn, in the Hinterlands or > anywhere he wants in Mystara. > - Nobles: another opportunity for the above-mentioned Sergeant is to become > noble after reaching 9th level. He can be given a dominion somewhere in the > Hinterlands, or on the Isle of Dawn, or he can find a piece of land Norwold. > And these are just 2 examples. I suppose it depends upon your campaign. Most aristocratic societies pass memebership in the aristocracy through family lines, father to son, head of family to next oldest, choice of most competent from the family or extended family structure. The desire to see your own progeny Succeed is basic to animal and man. Whether that progeny is competent or not is usually irrelevant. Henry the V conquers france, Henry the VI loses it. Genghis Khan conquers most of the world, Kubla Khan becomes a chinese emperor, three generations later his dynasty in china is annihilated( and with Genghis some of the reason for the Mongols loss of power comes from the splitting of the fathers possesions and power among all the children, no primogeniture). Even if the Sergeant is ennobled what becomes of his children? Do they inherit or do they have to prove themselves in some skill. Just because the Sergeant is a good fighter why would that make him a good leader. As a combat Sergeant he should be a good hand to hand fighter but even more he should be a great tactician. Why would he even need to know strategy? A good soldier obeys orders, a good Sergeant adabts orders to achieve objectives, a good officer (has a good Sergeant), a good General knows what objectives his Sergeants can accomplish, and thereby gives good orders. A Sergeant knows what he has to do, what his men can do and how they should go about doing it. A General knows what he wants done, what his sergeants have been able to do for him in the past, and tells them how much time they have to do it in. Nobles and merchants hire bodyguards, artisans, counselors,etc... all more skilled then they are, but the noble commands and they obey. > 2) Experience Points > XP (and thus level) aren't just a series of figures written on a piece of > paper: a character's XP means his fame, his knowledge, his cleverness in > understanding what's happening around him and acting as needed. > This is, IMO, the reason for having an army structured by level with the > General being the one with the most XP and so on down to the 1st level soldiers. > The General needn't have nor exceptional combat skills (THAC0 and Weapon > Mastery) neither many hp, but this usually happens because a General has to > be famous among his troops, to know military tactics, i.e. he needs combat > experience so he will inevitably be of high level. A good general is dangerous because he may overthrow you A bad general is dangerous because he may destroy you The level and makeup of an army depends upon the society you wish to portray. Mongols were made up of experienced fighters across their entire society. Rome went through different periods and its military changed with each of them, fighter/farmers,professional armies with decades long enlistments,hired mercenaries. Military leaders normally saw much less combat than their men and many generals were and are miltary bureaucrats and never see combat at all. But the question was about a charcter with 35 years combat experience starting as a private soldier. Whether such individuals are made officers, nobles or are retired to a farm, a wife and a mule seems to be a question for the DM and what type of society he or she wants to design. > > 3) Thyatian Army > Probably the Thyatian army is not a good example of military structure, > because of well known Thyatian corruption. On the other hand, this army is > one of the most powerful (perhaps _the_ most powerful) "conventional" (i.e. > not heavy magical) in the KW, and I don't think that this would be possible > if at least 3/4 of his officers are competent. > Obviously some generals are appointed for political favors and military rank > is sometimes purchased, but this are exception. I disagree, competence is usually the exception, or at least that is what I have garnered from readying history and watching it in action. Corruption again I see as the rule in most societies from a minor affliction to a destructive disease. I see it stemming from the outlook that society wants you to value 1.Society 2.community 3.family 4.Self and people tend to value 1.Self 2.family 3.society or community tied for third and last > > Last thing: all this stuff about army leaders and officers being experienced > is taken into account in the War Machine combat system when calculating the > BFR (Leadership Factor and Experience Factor). > One of the things that I like about D&D is that there have been many radical options offered, alternate armor and combat systems etc... and it seems geared more toward roleplaying than roleplaying. If a rule doesn't make sense for your campaign, don't use it. Realism, as much as a game with magicians and dragons can have, helps my group enjoy the game so I have much more fun with societies which are corrupt, incompetent and familiar than with ones which stretch disbelief a bit to far for my tastes. > OK, that's all. > Have fun. > > ************** > Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it > DM in City Of The Stars > aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr > Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 > ************** > > Jason Zavoda ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 20:11:52 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse > ((Historical Reference campaign)): > In the MYSTARA(R) adventure (page 62), a wizardess > from the fantastic French province of Averoigne is said to have > invented , with which she explored Earth's > history for her own amusement. She now lives in Glantri, maintaining > her youth with other magical potions. Averoigne could be part of a > magical Europe around A.D. 1600 in HR4 , and this > wizardess could be met at various times through Earth's history prior > to her move to the world of Mystara. > Note the mention of a time-traveling Glantri wizardess from Averoigne > (see Historical Reference) in (page 62). Though not a > true chronomancer, she could be encountered all across Mystara's > timeline, using her potions to cross time itself. Does anybody happen to have a copy of X2: Chateau d'Ambrevilles to compare Laterre, the world Etienne & co originally came from, to the HR world? All the information I know of points to "A magical version of France", but that's it.. I'm already imagining a time-travel plot where the PCs pop back in time to about 820AC or so, head over to Laterre, and keep Etienne from ever coming to Glantri and causing all that mess with the Radiance.. of course, Rad/Etienne of 1014AC or 1000AC wouldn't take it lying down... > ((MYSTARA(R)/BLACKMOOR(R)/HOLLOW WORLD(R)/RED STEEL(R) campaign)): > Chronomancy was known to the wizards of Alphatia, but all Alphatian > chronomancers were destroyed by an unknown Immortal after they > attempted to visit the long-lost techno-magical empire of Blackmoor > during its last few years and at the time of the global disaster that > destroyed that nation. One investigator of the loss of the Alphatians > believes the Immortals Rafiel and possibly Rad (a.k.a. Etienne > d'Amberville) are defending a prehistoric secret somehow connected with > the Radiance of Glantri. This is interesting.. it implies that these two Immortals of Energy have their own methods of time travel, either through Temporal Prime, favours from Time Immortals, or something else entirely. Then there's always the "Emerald River" of time found at the end of the NightRage, NightStorm, and NightWail module series, where it's claimed that Immortals can travel back in time to observe events and return to the present at will. > Immortals of Time do a fine job of policing. Unobtrusive chronomancers > would have considerable freedom; furthermore, they might gain the > cautious notice of Immortals from Energy or Time (particularly Ixion or > Khoronus), who might be bribed at tremendous expense to reveal other > secrets of chronomancy or Mystaran history. I wonder just what "cautious notice" means, when an Immortal is doing the noticing.. :) I wonder what secrets that they /wouldn't/ reveal, no matter what the bribe? Other than Blackmoorian science, of course. > Immortals of Time carefully shunt time travelers "around" critical > events in history, so that all attempts to reach those times are missed > by days, months, or years. Can anybody think of a good list of "critical events", other than the cataclysmic ones or ones having to do with the Nucleus of the Spheres? I know there's quite a lot of Mystaran history, but I'm not entire sure what events would be considered more important to the timeflow than others.. > No chronomancer can use time-travel powers, either arriving or > departing, during the Day of Dread (Kaldmont 28), from AC 1009 onward. > One curious aspect of time travel here concerns the future of magic > on Mystara. Some sages believe, for reasons they will not disclose, > that all magic on Mystara is doomed to fade away in the far future. > A few wizards have attempted to go into the far future of Mystara to > investigate these creatures (Oards) and their world first-hand, but > none have returned. Perhaps they were (will be?) stranded there, far in > advance of our time, with no magic left in the world to bring > themselves home. Or perhaps they were (will be?) caught by the oards or > other beings, suffering fates that cannot be guessed. I recall reading somewhere that the magic-drain from the Nucleus only affects the Mystaran system, and wizards who leave via Spelljammer or planar travel are unaffected.. although it might be a mite difficult getting back to the 'unaffected' regions without magic.. :) > However, time travelers might also meet up with a jackal-headed > humanoid race also using Temporal Prime: the hutaakans of Karameikos, > who can achieve chronomancer levels roughly equal to those gained by > half-elves. Hm.. I wonder just what individual hutaakans (either Hollow World or Karameikan) chronomancers would try to do in the past.. my guess would be trying to avoid the "shunting", and somehow rescue their outer-world civilization from collapsing circa 1000BC, when the gnolls invaded. Any other ideas? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 17:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Military (was: Weapon Mastery) Just a final two bit's worth on this subject: Fabrizzio, you can have the Thyatin military work however you damn well please in your own world. In terms of both realism and logical structure, though, the evidence seems pretty overwhelmingly in favor of the argument that rank should not correspond to level. Another argument that hasn't been brought up is how this all fits into actual play. Take the following two character histories as a case in point: Mystara A: Antonio is a first level fighter who has enlisted in the Thyatin army. He is put through military training - boring and not roleplayed - then sent overseas to the hinterlands. In the hinterlands he fights against the tribesman in his military unit, meaning that he gets plenty of combat experience, none of which is really much fun to role play since he is just a cog in the machine of the legion. He advances to 2nd level and is promoted to corporal. Then he is sent to Ochalea to crush a rebellion. Still he is part of a bigger unit and has little tactical freedom so roleplaying is no fun, and he has fought only other human fighters, never even encountered a monster, a mage, or any interesting opponent. He makes 3rd level and becomes a sergeant. He gets sent to the Isle of Dawn. Here he is involved in a border skirmish with Alphatians. This is more interesting - he gets to make a few decisions as his phalanx (or whatever) gets separated from the others in an urban setting, and he even gets to kill a mage who is throwing magic missiles at his troops. Antonio becomes 4th level and gets promoted to Lieutenant. Now he is sent back to Biazzan to patrol the hills for gnolls. Over several months he leads small patrols into the hills - he is finally in command of a small unit and is its chief warrior. Most engagements consist of him clad head to toe in plate armor and mounted leading a group of lightly armored foot soldiers into combat with bigger stronger gnolls. Antonio always survives but he sees his men getting decimated. Even in command he gets little freedom of choice in tactics, and no variety of opponents. He makes in to 5th level and becomes a captain - by now it has been at the very least several years and he has been in duty that was deadly dangerous but never truly adventurous or interesting. Mostly his world is pretty bleak in role playing terms. Probably he just does his job and drinks himself to sleep at night. After years and years more of this, if Antonio is still alive he may have become a general, in which case nothing will really change - his combat skills will still be higher than his subordinates, so he will still be needed primarily on the battle field - thus distracting him from a real view of the battle. He will mostly be a cog in a larger mass army, and his individual decisions will be severely constrained. Most of his time will be spent training and waiting in bleak conditions and godforsaken colonies. More importantly, he will never really have "an adventuring party", since the men under him will always be lower level and often will have a high turnover rate. Just like real military life, Antonio's career will be neither glamorous not free. Mystara B: Hector is a dissipated and worthless but intelligent first level rake. His aristocratic family buys him a command position in the Thyatin army. When he is actually with his unit as opposed to yachting somewhere, he tends to spend his time playing polo or gambling. Living with him in the officer's quarters is his adolescent boy lover Rotu, a Nuari slave who is also a 3rd level magic user specializing in illusions. Everyone in the unit knows about their relationship but no one is allowed to speak of it. The legion's chaplain (C5) is a dottering old Hattian named Helmut who is senile and tends to miscast spells. The only saving grace to the unit is the chief NCO, Gitano, a ninth level forester from out in the backwoods of Biazzan who has had a long military career and cares deeply about the men under him as well as about his allegiance to Thyatis. He has thought about leaving the military, but he does not have the social standing or the fame to get a land grant in Norwold, nor would he swear allegiance to an Alphatian like Ericall. He values his own loyalty to Emperor Thincol. Also in the unit is Dmitrov, a quiet old Traladaran who has enlisted in the Legion for the money, as he was once a wealthy adventurer in Karameikos but was eventually arrested for evading the tax and put into prison - since his release he has had no money but he is a seventh level fighter who is a master of the long sword. He is officially only a private but Gitano at least values his opinions. The unit is normally stationed as part of the garrison at Port Lucinius, but they receive new orders suddenly. An uprising in N'Goro threatens Thyatin trade interests there. After making a diplomatic agreement about spheres of interest with Ierendi and Minrothad, Thyatis sends Hector's Legion to quell the unrest. The troops are scattered throughout the city in a standard Thyatin army formation and quell the initial riots but are also abusive to the locals. Hector quickly finds the (superficially) most powerful person in town - the head of a Yavi merchant family - and arranges to deal with him only. Rotu warns him that this is going to alienate the other families and also that it appears the Huleans may be involved in stirring up the original trouble and may still be around. Hector ignores this advice and Rotu, in a snit, charms a ship captain and flees. Hector is not willing to see him go so easily, and prepares to take the naval vessel attached to the legion to chase him. Meanwhile a new riot starts in the city which the legion cannot put down - Yavi sorcerors and Hulean wizards are summoning all sorts of weird monsters and everything is in chaos. Dmitrov and Gitano mutiny against Hector, sneaking aboard the ship before he can leave and killing him, then throwing his body in the harbor. They stage a fighting withdrawal of the troops from the port, getting them back aboard the ship and leaving for Tyjaret. On the way they find and kill Rotu as well just for petty vengeance. In Tyjaret they send a message to the Thyatin consul to see if they can get amnesty for their breach of discipline. Denied, they convince old Helmut to join them in brigandage (he always had a bit of a chaotic soul anyway) and sail to the Savage Coast, where they hire out the unit as mercenaries to a Vilaverdan merchant, who uses them to attack a pirate base in the trident isles. On the way they are ambushed by Herathians, who take over the ship and put the top leaders in prison, putting the rest to work in slave camps. Gitano, Dmitrov, and Helmut stage an escape, but en route Helmut is killed. They are helped by a *seemingly* Elvish (actually Aranea - but sympathetic) mage to escape back through the jungles and hills back to Bellayne, where they book passage on a ship to Vilaverde. When the merchant who hired them will not help free From ???@??? Mon May 27 10:54:53 1996 X-UIDL: b28bf7429e81acb74a5d38b40a6b5cc5 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA21805; Sun, 26 May 1996 15:52:24 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA24800 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 19:48:08 -0500 Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 19:48:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199605260048.TAA24800@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #120 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk the men from the Herathians, they kill him, then flee into the hills. Discovering the red curse, they try to determine a way to sell cinnabryl to the Ierendi and make their fortunes. After setting up a company in Kladanovic and making some money, they hire three ships filled with Minrothaddans and return to attack the Herathians, freeing those of their comrades who are still alive. After all this time, they sail back to the east and scatter after arriving in Specularum, some of them returning to Thyatis under assumed names and rejoining the army!!! One Mystara is linear, logical, organized, mathematically predictable. One is hyper-dangerous, chaotic, uncertain, irrational, and always slightly unfair, though in its own way liberating. Which sounds more fun to play in? ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sat, 25 May 96 09:00:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > Does anybody happen to have a copy of X2: Chateau d'Ambrevilles to compare > Laterre, the world Etienne & co originally came from, to the HR world? All the > information I know of points to "A magical version of France", but that's it.. > I'm already imagining a time-travel plot where the PCs pop back in time to > about 820AC or so, head over to Laterre, and keep Etienne from ever coming to > Glantri and causing all that mess with the Radiance.. of course, Rad/Etienne > of 1014AC or 1000AC wouldn't take it lying down... There's not a lot of "background" in X2. It's based on Clark Ashton Smith, so grab those if you want. But essentially the setting is medieval France, with a very dark mood that strikes me as similar to what I imagine Ravenloft to be. Do whatever you like, it fits X2 without contradiction. It's only one province, anyway. My taste lent me to include the Inquisition, Templar Knights, and rampant Cthulhu Mythos activity. Some of the latter is practised by the "pagans" mentioned in the module, and some is the state religion (disguised of course )! I am working on a morality play for the paladin in the group. He is self- righteous, and a native of Glantri; leading to a great deal of resentment against mages. Unfortunately his arrogance interferes with his "purity." He's gotten the idea that if he can but "change" the past, he can prevent the outlawing of religion from Glantri. Now he's faced with the Inquisition as a model for a church-run state, and is doing a great deal of thinking...! Shelby Michlin ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse On Fri, 24 May 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > Does anybody happen to have a copy of X2: Chateau d'Ambrevilles to > compare Laterre, the world Etienne & co originally came from, to the HR > world? All the information I know of points to "A magical version of > France", but that's it.. Yes, I have a copy - not particularly helpful. None of the place names is from real France as far as I can tell (in fact many are the same as place names in Nouvelle Averoigne on Mystara). The one striking thing about Old Averoigne is that it is a much lower tech level than Glantri - probably more like 12th century AD, which makes sense - also it is somewhat remote and provincial, is the impression I get - lots of virgin forest and a few big towns. The similarity of "Averoigne" to "Aquitaine" (very slight, I admit) makes me wonder if it is supposed to be in Gascony somewhere. At any rate, Averoigne/Laterre (which is just French for Earth, of course) did not originate with X2 - you have to go back further to the Lovecraft-esque original stories of Clark Ashton Smith, and than will require a very good library than stocks obscure fantasy and sci-fi from the 30's. I've never read the stories but I assume they should be enlightening - many of the events and place names in X2 are taken directly from them. > I'm already imagining a time-travel plot where the PCs pop back in time > to about 820AC or so, head over to Laterre, and keep Etienne from ever > coming to Glantri and causing all that mess with the Radiance.. of > course, Rad/Etienne of 1014AC or 1000AC wouldn't take it lying down... > You really should check out Mark of Amber, which deals with almost exactly this question ... sort of ... > > believes the Immortals Rafiel and possibly Rad (a.k.a. Etienne > > d'Amberville) are defending a prehistoric secret somehow connected with > > the Radiance of Glantri. > > This is interesting.. it implies that these two Immortals of Energy > have their own methods of time travel, either through Temporal Prime, > favours from Time Immortals, or something else entirely. IMHO, all time travel would be more or less controlled/regulated by Khoronus - he's so powerful in that area I doubt anyone would challenge him individually, and he would probably allow some small use of time travel but no big changes. However, in my campaign right now, Khoronus has been "killed" (temporarily banished from time) by a group of other immortals as part of the WotI war - meaning that the time stream is coming apart at the seams and bizarre things are happening in illogical sequences. It is still pretty linear but it is already very frustrating to my PC's - imagine if Khoronus really were dead, the logic of time might collapse completely ... Then there's > always the "Emerald River" of time found at the end of the NightRage, > NightStorm, and NightWail module series, where it's claimed that > Immortals can travel back in time to observe events and return to the > present at will. I don't have that series ... does it say the Emerald River is usable by mortals? what about Immortals without access to the Hollow World? > > > Immortals of Time do a fine job of policing. Unobtrusive chronomancers > > would have considerable freedom; furthermore, they might gain the > > cautious notice of Immortals from Energy or Time (particularly Ixion or > > Khoronus), who might be bribed at tremendous expense to reveal other > > secrets of chronomancy or Mystaran history. > > I wonder just what "cautious notice" means, when an Immortal is doing > the noticing.. :) > I wonder what secrets that they /wouldn't/ reveal, no matter what the > bribe? Other than Blackmoorian science, of course. > perhaps secrets about the origins of various immortals ... > > Immortals of Time carefully shunt time travelers "around" critical > > events in history, so that all attempts to reach those times are missed > > by days, months, or years. > > Can anybody think of a good list of "critical events", other than the > cataclysmic ones or ones having to do with the Nucleus of the Spheres? I > know there's quite a lot of Mystaran history, but I'm not entire sure > what events would be considered more important to the timeflow than > others.. I can think of few off the top of my head - the collapse of Nithia, the arrival of the Alphatians, General Zendrolion's coup d'etat in Thyatis, the birth of Hosadus, etc. - then again the idea that some events are more critical than others is strange when you think about the logic of time ...remember all those Star Trek episodes on this subject? > > I recall reading somewhere that the magic-drain from the Nucleus only > affects the Mystaran system, and wizards who leave via Spelljammer or > planar travel are unaffected.. although it might be a mite difficult > getting back to the 'unaffected' regions without magic.. :) good point. kind of a catch twenty two, no? > > > However, time travelers might also meet up with a jackal-headed > > humanoid race also using Temporal Prime: the hutaakans of Karameikos, > > who can achieve chronomancer levels roughly equal to those gained by > > half-elves. > > Hm.. I wonder just what individual hutaakans (either Hollow World or > Karameikan) chronomancers would try to do in the past.. my guess would > be trying to avoid the "shunting", and somehow rescue their outer-world > civilization from collapsing circa 1000BC, when the gnolls invaded. Any > other ideas? if they were interested in preserving Hutaakan society first and foremost, yes. But they also might be completely insane and have some much more bizarre agenda as to their interventions in the Time Stream. Does anyone know the old BBC show "The Tomorrow People"? (it had a run on Nickelodeon in the US in the early '80's). It featured in several episodes a Hutaaka-esque race with time travelling and space travelling technology, who were supposedly responsible for Egyptian civilization on this Earth - why not absorb this kind of sci-fi stuff into D&D? M@2 ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 18:36:15 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse > At any rate, Averoigne/Laterre (which is just French for > Earth, of course) did not originate with X2 - you have to go back further > to the Lovecraft-esque original stories of Clark Ashton Smith, and than > will require a very good library than stocks obscure fantasy and sci-fi > from the 30's. I've never read the stories but I assume they should be > enlightening - many of the events and place names in X2 are taken > directly from them. > > I'm already imagining a time-travel plot where the PCs pop back in time > > to about 820AC or so, head over to Laterre, and keep Etienne from ever > > coming to Glantri and causing all that mess with the Radiance.. > You really should check out Mark of Amber, which deals with almost > exactly this question ... sort of ... Not exacly.. the PCs live through a few pieces of Etienne's life, but don't actually make any changes. I was thinking of actually changing Mystaran history.. though MoA would make an excellent prelude. :) > > always the "Emerald River" of time found at the end of the NightRage, > > NightStorm, and NightWail module series, where it's claimed that > > Immortals can travel back in time to observe events and return to the > > present at will. > I don't have that series ... does it say the Emerald River is usable by > mortals? The Emerald River can be reached by mortals, though it takes a rather difficult 'spell', which I believe is only granted by an Immortal. > what about Immortals without access to the Hollow World? Well, since /all/ Immortals can get to the Hollow World, the point is moot. :) But to answer your question, there was mention that the PCs in the River could see points of light in the distance, which were other worlds' timestreams.. although the PCs weren't able to reach them, the Immortals are. > > > cautious notice of Immortals from Energy or Time (particularly Ixion or > > > Khoronus), who might be bribed at tremendous expense to reveal other > > > secrets of chronomancy or Mystaran history. > > I wonder what secrets that they /wouldn't/ reveal, no matter what the > > bribe? Other than Blackmoorian science, of course. > perhaps secrets about the origins of various immortals ... Well.. Immortals who are allied or of the same Spheres as them. Though I'm pretty sure Ixion would have gladly given Rad's origin during WotI... ;) > > Can anybody think of a good list of "critical events", other than the > > cataclysmic ones or ones having to do with the Nucleus of the Spheres? > I can think of few off the top of my head - the collapse of Nithia, the > arrival of the Alphatians, General Zendrolion's coup d'etat in Thyatis, > the birth of Hosadus, etc. - then again the idea that some events are > more critical than others is strange when you think about the logic of > time ...remember all those Star Trek episodes on this subject? True, but according to the Chronomancer book, the timestream is generally 'self-correcting'.. ie, if you kill a general before a historic battle, it will turn out that it was the general's lieutenant who was the tactical genius.. or something like that. There could be many short-term changes, but you usually can't make much difference... The key word being "usually". :) With the right push, or lots of little pushes (kill the ltnt, then the clnl, then the sergent, then go to the /other/ battle which turns out to be the decisive one, etc.. :) ), time-travellers can make changes. > > I recall reading somewhere that the magic-drain from the Nucleus only > > affects the Mystaran system, and wizards who leave via Spelljammer or > > planar travel are unaffected.. although it might be a mite difficult > > getting back to the 'unaffected' regions without magic.. :) > good point. kind of a catch twenty two, no? Not completely; you'd only need some Blackmoorian devices or some supertech from the future itself. Of course, finding such items would be major quests of themselves.. ;) > Does anyone know the old BBC show "The Tomorrow People"? (it had a > run on Nickelodeon in the US in the early '80's). It featured in several > episodes a Hutaaka-esque race with time travelling and space travelling > technology, who were supposedly responsible for Egyptian civilization on > this Earth - why not absorb this kind of sci-fi stuff into D&D? You mean it isn't already there? :) Seriously, though, with the FSS Beagle, Blackmoor, and the Nucleus of the Spheres.. does Mystara really need any more science-fiction? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 16:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] more NPC's!!!! Lord Felonius Akrum, Baron Farstead Male Human Fighter level 4 upper middle class, alignment LE, age 54, 12,240 xp Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 7 Cha 12 hp 32 AC -1 move 1 speaks Thyatin proficiencies: endurance 3, riding 10, read/write 7, singing 8, hunting 7, dancing 8, sabre, heavy lance (choice, specialized), shortbow, dagger, battleaxe traits: singing talent, irritating personality Thaco damage #AT shortbow +1 16 d6+1 2 (w/arrows +3) 13 d6+4 2 lance 14 d8+4/3d6+3 3/2 battleaxe +2 15 d8+3 1 has 5 flight arrows +3, shortbow +1 with +50% range, battleaxe +2, full plate armor, kite shield (with Farstead arms), sabre, dagger, 12 normal flight arrows, heavy lance, great helm. Rides heavy warhorse ("Zendrolion") with AC 4 (plate and chain barding), HD 3+3, Move 12, #AT 3, dmg d8x2, d3, Thaco 16, hp 16 Baron Farstead's Guards: Captain: Thyatin human F7, with heavy warhorse, brooch of shielding, field plate +2, kite shield +1, horseman's pick +2, gladius +1, +2 vs. magic-users, AC -3, hp 51, Str 13, Dex 15, Con 12 20 Sharpshooters: F1, specialized in light crossbow, AC 8, hp 6 20 Heavy Footmen: Hill Dwarves in 3/4 plate & shield with morningstars & handaxes AC 2 hp 7 60 Light Infantry: pike & gladius AC 8, hp 5 Felonius Akrum is the eldest son of a (now dead) rich Thyatin spice merchant. Felonius inherited his father's money 20 years ago and used it to buy a knightly title from Stefan Karameikos and land from Stefan's vassal Count Durian west of Threshold. Felonius then built the town of Farstead and a castle with it. He was formerly an officer in the Thyatin army and loves military things - he imagines himself to be an ancient Hattian war-chief and loves hunting because it symbolizes the Hattian spirit to him. He also loves to joust. He tends to dislike nonhumans but loves dwarves, especially as drinking companions. He is somewhat loud and boorish and is known for his ability to belt out drinking and battle songs. In spite of his martial demeanor, during the last war he paid a scutage tax to the Duke rather than actually fighting. Since then he has felt somewhat ashamed of his cowardice and longs for another war so he can prove himself in battle at the head of his Baronial guards. He is quite loyal in his vassalage to King Karameikos and to Lord Handroc (the Seneschal of County Durian). Felonius' ancestry is somewhat mixed but he looks Hattian - redfaced and silverhaired, and quite large. At castle Farstead there is a special pulley system rigged up to hoist him into the saddle when he is in his armor. Lord Alavraen the Grey, Baronet Faymir Male High Elf Mage level 1 upper class, xp 175, AL LG Str 9 Dex 8 Con 9 Int 18 Wis 8 Cha 13 hp 4 AC 10 Move 12 Thaco 17 damage d4/d3+2 (dagger +2) speaks Thyatin, Elvish, Mehirgudi (14), Tumassen (14) proficiencies: riding 8, read/write (Elvish&Thyatin) 13, etiquette 10, dagger (bonus) spellbook: read magic, comprehend languages, hypnotism, protection from evil, erase, change self (m) Alavraen is one of the younger children of an expatriate noble clan from Alfheim who have settled in Specularum. His title of Baronet conveys no lands or real authority beyond mere recognition of his status as a noble, but his mostly just an annoyance at high-class parties. He really wants to be an adventurer but is too nervous to undergo the traditional Traladaran shearing and risk not being able to come home to his family if he screws up. He has led something of a sheltered life and is generally naive. Alavraen is a good NPC for campaigns with low level PC's - he might accidentally meet them and try to tag along with them, trying to live the "adventurer lifestyle" without actually facing much danger himself - he is generally honorable but will shirk from combat except in desperate situations. He has visited the restored city of Tuma in the Darokinian Cruth (see B8) and is fascinated by its culture and long history, and will talk about them incessantly to anyone who will listen. Alavraen is about 5'2" with dark blond hair, worn long, and a tiny wisp of a moustache. Anastasia "Sunday" Brandywine Female Human Thief level 2 lower (middle) class Str 9 Dex 11 Con 8 Int 16 Wis 11 Cha 14 hp 9 AC 10 Thaco 20 dmg d4/d3 proficiencies: endurance 3, religion 6, tumbling 7, animal lore 8, herbalism 7, all knives and daggers speaks Thyatin, Ochalean (10), Traldar (10) thief skills: open locks 20% find/remove traps 15% pick pockets 30% move silently 25% climb walls 90% hide in shadows 15% detect noise 20% backstab for double damage traits: alluring, glib, moderate rodent-phobia +2 bonus to appearance for all seduction attempts (courtesan kit) has prosthetic steel left arm, enchantedly animated, with a lovely rose engraving. geases: will cease to exist if she dons a bustier, cannot appear outside her workplace in scanty clothing or she will grow a goatee. stuff: white blouse with butterfly collar, blue cardigan, Church of Karameikos holy symbol, plaid skirt, knee socks, shiny shoes, white cotton panties, white cotton bralette, 2 daggers, 1 stiletto, blue hair ribbon, monocle, 10' pole Sunday is of Nuari/Hattian descent, six feet tall, with dark skin and kinky hair and very very sharp fingernails. She was once a sweet and innocent student at the Church of Karameikos' Our Lady of Chastity School for Girls in Specularum, until she was kidnapped and later seduced by the evil (and sex-crazed) wizard Bargle, who performed bizarre experiments on her, leading to some of her more unusual features. Now she works as a Courtesan for the Kingdom of Thieves, still disguised as a schoolgirl, and occasionally performs assasinations of her clients. Due to her size and energetic personality she can occasionally be somewhat intimidating, but her deceptively wholesome appearance and dangerously sweet manner always cause her intended victims to drop their guard sooner or later. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #120 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 28 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 121 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Levy Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 16:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse On Sat, 25 May 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > You really should check out Mark of Amber, which deals with almost > > exactly this question ... sort of ... > Not exacly.. the PCs live through a few pieces of Etienne's life, but > don't actually make any changes. I was thinking of actually changing > Mystaran history.. though MoA would make an excellent prelude. :) Oops ... you're correct, I didn't read that section carefully. But the PC's *do* have an effect on the course of Etienne's (im)mortal existence depending on what happens in the dreams, right? This could serve as a model for how to go about setting up real time travel. > > what about Immortals without access to the Hollow World? > Well, since /all/ Immortals can get to the Hollow World, the point is > moot. :) But to answer your question, there was mention that the PCs in > the River could see points of light in the distance, which were other > worlds' timestreams.. although the PCs weren't able to reach them, the > Immortals are. I see... Somewhere in the recesses of my mind it seems that the Hollow World boxed set made reference to the fact that some immortals had been excluded from or denied knowledge of the hollow world by Ka when it was originally created ... I don't have the set with me now so I can't check ... > > perhaps secrets about the origins of various immortals ... > Well.. Immortals who are allied or of the same Spheres as them. Though > I'm pretty sure Ixion would have gladly given Rad's origin during WotI... > ;) Well in that case probably so ... but remember even in that war the immortals generally stuck to the rules concerning direct intervention. Mightn't they have similar rules preventing the granting of massively powerful knowledge, such as the sort of information which could be used to change history or to kill an immortal? It is not implausible that even the Old Ones might get involved if people start screwing with time. > > more critical than others is strange when you think about the logic of > > time ...remember all those Star Trek episodes on this subject? > True, but according to the Chronomancer book, the timestream is > generally 'self-correcting'.. ie, if you kill a general before a historic > battle, it will turn out that it was the general's lieutenant who was the > tactical genius.. or something like that. There could be many short-term > changes, but you usually can't make much difference... The key word being > "usually". :) With the right push, or lots of little pushes (kill the > ltnt, then the clnl, then the sergent, then go to the /other/ battle > which turns out to be the decisive one, etc.. :) ), time-travellers can > make changes. Ingenious! That does seem to be a workable and simple solution to the paradox of time travel - perhaps it works that way *because* immortals are intervening to re-engineer the necessary events. One theory of time travel (which I'm borrowing from ICE's Rolemaster) says that when you change the past, you actually create a new parallel universe ... or rather, you step interdimensionally into the parallel universe which would result from the changes you've made. This explains why characters don't disappear if they kill their own ancestors, etc. - they are not in their own universe when they go "back to the future". Theoretically, there should be an infinite number of parallel potential universes, and the distance of travel between them would be measured by the *sameness* of events from one to the next. But then you end up with a "slider" effect where PC's find it very difficult to ever go back home. For play purposes, then, I like the "Chronomancer" theory better ... > Not completely; you'd only need some Blackmoorian devices or some > supertech from the future itself. Of course, finding such items would be > major quests of themselves.. ;) Unless of course Mystara was visited by nonmagical extraterrestrials ... > > this Earth - why not absorb this kind of sci-fi stuff into D&D? > You mean it isn't already there? :) Seriously, though, with the FSS Beagle, > Blackmoor, and the Nucleus of the Spheres.. does Mystara really need any > more science-fiction? > *need* is perhaps not the right word. But since it's this silly already, why not go whole hog? M@2 ------------------------------ From: LEGRAND Pascal Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:42:44 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] Averoigne and La terre Bonjour chers amis, As a French I think I have something to say about Averoigne and la = Terre. To Matthew Levy I have to say that Averoigne is a mispelling of = Auvergne, a french region who belonged to the Duchy of Burgondy in the = dark ages. Myself when I think of La Terre I use the stuff from Ars Magica and my = history courses, I mix them with other stuff from occultism and = esoterism books. Then I use local legends about witches, monsters and = devil worshipping and the result looks like a Ravenloft land. I think that the use of some cthulhu mythos is a great idea too, maybe = it's the cult behind the devil worshipping ?=20 Hope my post will help, if you have any questions about medieval = France, just ask and I'll try to give you answers. Pascal P.S : As a last word I'd like to say than I'm not really french, I'm = briton (from Brittany). I'm as French as a Scot is English, see what I = mean ? ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 27 May 96 14:33:52 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse At 20.11 24/05/96 -0400, Daniel Boese wrote: > Can anybody think of a good list of "critical events", other than the >cataclysmic ones or ones having to do with the Nucleus of the Spheres? I >know there's quite a lot of Mystaran history, but I'm not entire sure >what events would be considered more important to the timeflow than >others.. > This is what comes to my mind on the spot: * Disappearance of Ancient Nithia * Creation of HW BTW: I haven't got the first edition of Creature Catalog, can someone tell me what this Oards look like ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 27 May 96 14:33:22 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce the hottest Mystara debate ever... At the red corner, coming from Italy, the challenger: Fabrizio "Madmen" Paoli... At the blue corner, from an unknown location in the U.S., the champion of "realism and logical structure": Matthew Levy... At 17.30 24/05/96 -0700, you wrote: >One Mystara is linear, logical, organized, mathematically predictable. >One is hyper-dangerous, chaotic, uncertain, irrational, and always >slightly unfair, though in its own way liberating. > >Which sounds more fun to play in? I don't know. If well role-played both could be fun. Mystara B is probably far too chaotic, irrational and unbelievable, IMO. A rake in the army ? A Nuar and a Hattian in the same unit ? A Karameikan in the Thyatian army ?? Thyatians fighting in N'Goro ? probably most Thyatians don't even know that Yavdlom exists.... I would never write something like this for my campaign, nor would I accept it quietly if I was a player, however if it fits in your campaign it's OK. Mystara A as you described it can be boring sometimes, but slightly modified it can be as fun as Mystara B. Some ideas: roleplay the training and all combat, give Antonio some weeks of leave between assignments, make him make friends in the army with whom he can adventure after leaving the army. What I don't understand is why should he fight in the field also when he reaches the rank of General, where's the fun of being General then ? A General usually put his HQ on a hill, from where he can see the battlefield and give orders to his subordinates. I don't remember of Emperor Napoleon locked in melee with enemy soldiers or officers... (not even firing a rifle or a gun). Probably before becoming General... Now it's my turn to tell you my Mystara, this a short excerpt of what you find in my Home Page (see the signature): My PC, 3 Shadow Elves, enlisted in the army in Losetrel. Their group was made of Sgt. Vernel (E5) and 13 privates: Liabel (E4), 1 E3, 6 E2, 5 E1 (PC included). They were given standard equipment (chain mail, sword, light crossbow, 30 darts) but they could keep their magical items, if any. Their first task was to patrol the road from Losetrel to Durdael, then they had a day of leave in Losetrel, before being sent to explore Mylandiel Hills and nearby caves. These patrols lasted for a month, during which they killed several monsters (Lizards, Spiders, Rats, Beetles, Caecilias, Snakes, a Giant Slug and even a Purple Worm), some of them lost their lives (4 including the E3) and the Sgt. valued their job. Obviously all combat was role-played with Vernel giving orders and the DM rolling tons of dice. After this first month they had a leave (about a month) and then they were sent to Blackstone Hollow, a keep. Here they found some of their previous brother-in-arms, including Liabel (now E5, Sergeant, _their_ Sergeant). At the keep they trained in crossbow firing and sworplay (both roleplayed), then explored nearby caves, carried weapons from the smithy to the keep, rescued other soldiers trapped in a cave by a landslide and finally they fighted Geonids near Alfmyr. Back in Blackstone Hollow they got a 2 months leave. Ok, I stop here. You can find something more in my Home Page, as I wrote before. Probably I'm too logical, mathematical, rational (after all I'm a student of enginnering), but I prefer Mystara A. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Mon, 27 May 96 11:34 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] War Machine At 02:54 PM 5/15/96 +0200, you wrote: >As I see that many people here are familiar with the War Machine I've to ask >them a pair of questions: >1) Don't you think the way PC gain XP in mass combat is a bit unfair. I >mean, if they're, for example, sergeants in the Thyatian army and their army >(lead by a general) wins a battle, the general gets XP equivalent to the >number of troops in the enemy army and what they get ? Nothing ? And the >soldiers ? >2) Magical Items: when I told my PC that some of the charges of their >magical items will be used in the battle, they decided to leave their wands >and rods at home. This didn't change their BR and the combat result, anyway >they avoided to use precious charges. Do you think this is fair ? > I certainly think so! It's their decision. Just include users of magical items that help combat in the percent of the force that casts spells, as the effect is the same. Then, the both the players and characters will want the characters to have their magic items in the battle. Also, they are supposed to ROLEPLAY their characters correctly. Only a fool would leave their rods and staves at home, when in a battle, their lives may depend on it. Remember, no PC should ide in mass combat. The combat that a PC participates in in a battle should all be done the normal way. Perhaps a reason for this is so they have the decision of whether or not to use their magical items. David M. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 16:51:13 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Averoigne and La terre > Averoigne is a mispelling of > Auvergne, a french region who belonged to the Duchy of Burgondy in the > dark ages. Dang.. I just bought HR4 today, and discovered the same thing.. Guess I was scooped. :) I'm going to compare Auvergne to what I know about Averoigne (does anybody have a copy of X2 they're willing to sell? ;) ), and post what I find.. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 17:00:20 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oards (was: Chronomancy...) > BTW: I haven't got the first edition of Creature Catalog, can someone tell > me what this Oards look like ? "Oards are man-sized humanoids. ...their bodies are only part flesh and blood, with the remainder bing composed of machinery, electronic circuits and so on. As a resuly, most oards are nearly identical in appearance. Their similarity is enhanced by the one-piece overalls which they wear. "Outside their own era, oards will usually be disguised as ordinary inhabitants by means of their image amulets. "Image Amulet: This allows an oard to look like any humanoid creature (up to 10 feet tall) desired. It also changes the appearance of the oard's equipment." The picture shows a pair of humanoids in jumpsuits: take a human, add over a dozen fist-sized, ovoid lumps over the body; make the head bald, about a foot taller, and add some bumps/hills on top. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 16:47:24 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse > I see... Somewhere in the recesses of my mind it seems that the Hollow > World boxed set made reference to the fact that some immortals had been > excluded from or denied knowledge of the hollow world by Ka when it was > originally created ... I don't have the set with me now so I can't check > ... From what I recall without checking, Ka had tried to keep the Hollow World hidden from other Immortals (particularly, say, Alphaks or Nyx) while it was being created and stocked, but by now it's an "open secret" in Immortal society. I could be wrong, though.. Do you think Benekander knows about it? ;) > > I'm pretty sure Ixion would have gladly given Rad's origin during WotI... > Well in that case probably so ... but remember even in that war the > immortals generally stuck to the rules concerning direct intervention. > Mightn't they have similar rules preventing the granting of massively > powerful knowledge, such as the sort of information which could be used > to change history or to kill an immortal? Well.. as far as I'm aware, the only laws among the Immortals are "massively-enforced peer pressure" sorts of things. It might be a little counterproductive to /Lightning Bolt/ all those nasty-evil-people if the other Immortals gang up and /Fireball/ all of your followers.. ;) > It is not implausible that > even the Old Ones might get involved if people start screwing with time. Possibly.. especially if somebody tries to fiddle with the Radiance, one From ???@??? Tue May 28 17:28:33 1996 X-UIDL: b5e61286d42a69fb85be06494657b705 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA00154; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:25:07 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA20206 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:03:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:03:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199605280503.AAA20206@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #121 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk of their pet projects. > Ingenious! That does seem to be a workable and simple solution to the > paradox of time travel - perhaps it works that way *because* immortals > are intervening to re-engineer the necessary events. And don't forget, Immortals of Time "destroy any threats to the timestream without hesitation or delay". Hm.. I wonder what would happen if a Chronomancer who's made many changes to the timestream gets 'edited' by the Immortals so that he's never born? > > Not completely; you'd only need some Blackmoorian devices or some > > supertech from the future itself. Of course, finding such items would be > > major quests of themselves.. ;) > Unless of course Mystara was visited by nonmagical extraterrestrials ... Good point.. Anybody care to have the FSS Beagle's superiors finally send a follow-up mission? ;) > > You mean it isn't already there? :) Seriously, though, with the FSS Beagle, > > Blackmoor, and the Nucleus of the Spheres.. does Mystara really need any > > more science-fiction? > *need* is perhaps not the right word. But since it's this silly already, > why not go whole hog? Well.. In your own campaign, you're about 34 classes of being above the Old Ones, so do whatever you wish. :) IMC, although they've influenced nearly everything, Blackmoor, the Beagle et al are almost always hidden in the background. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 22:59:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse In a message dated 96-05-27 18:17:04 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: > From what I recall without checking, Ka had tried to keep the Hollow >World hidden from other Immortals (particularly, say, Alphaks or Nyx) >while it was being created and stocked, but by now it's an "open secret" >in Immortal society. I could be wrong, though.. Do you think Benekander >knows about it? ;) If they didn't know already, the Immortals would have had to have learned of the existence of the Hollow World during the War of the Wrath of the Immortals. Certainly by the time most of the Immortals got to work re-creating Alphatia they all would have known about it. As for Benekander, he would have discovered the Hollow World as soon as the adventurers in "Wrath of the Immortals" told him about the shaft in Aegos - -- if he didn't figure it out sooner from other clues. At the rate things are going, the existence of the Hollow World will soon be common knowledge among mortals as well -- there is too much travel to and from the Hollow World now for it to remain a secret for much longer. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:05:39 -0400 (EST) Subject: re: [Mystara] Laterre and Old Averoigne > I'm going to compare Auvergne to what I know about Averoigne and post=20 > what I find..=20 Well, as I can find nothing on Auvergne, but have found a good deal on=20 Averoigne and Laterre, I'll post a quick compilation of that instead.=20 (Though any information from X2 is missing.. could somebody post whatever= =20 other information happens to be in there? Or at least email it to me? :) ) *** Dimension of Myth An alternate dimension which has been visited by Immortals and=20 high-level mortal adventurers on several occasions, and one which=20 strongly resembles the multiverse, is called the Dimension of Myth.=20 The world corresponding to the Known World in that dimension's Prime=20 Plane is very much like our own planet Earth as it was in the Middle=20 Ages; each nation and culture corresponds very closely to a nation and=20 culture of Earth. However, in that dimension magic works and magical=20 creatures that are merely mythical here are very prevalent. Like Mystara,= =20 Laterre is populated by humans and demihumans, wondrous creatures and=20 savage monsters, familiar animals and plants. This is the world where the= =20 households of Sylaire and Klantyre (the d'Ambreville and McGregor=20 families and their dependents) came from before they settled in Glantri=20 on the Known World. In the land of Averoigne, there was magic, as on=20 Mystara - but it was forbidden, and its practitioners burned alive at the= =20 stake. In this nation lived the wealthy d'Ambreville family. Many of the=20 d'Ambrevilles were brilliant scholars, and some of them were sorcerers.=20 Unfortunately, eccentricity verging on madness was a common family=20 trait, so it was very hard for the d'Ambrevilles to keep their magical=20 researches secret. As a general rule, this dimension is populated by worlds, creatures,=20 Immortal beings, and themes which strongly resemble the mythologies of=20 our Earth. However, these elements, instead of being blended together as=20 they are on the Known World, are kept seperate according to their=20 real-world cultural backgrouns; for instance, characters will see pegasi=20 and dryads in the worlds of Greek myth, but never in the worlds of=20 mythologies where winged horses did not appear. Averoigne could be part of a magical Europe around A.D. 1600 in HR4 .=20 =20 Timeline of Events On Laterre: 662 Marie-Hlne de Montagnevert born. 665 Camille de Montagnevert born. 684 Camille and Michel d'Ambreville marry. Richard d'Ambreville born. 689 Marie-Hlne and Marcel d'Ambreville marry. 692 tienne d'Ambreville born. 695 Charles d'Ambreville born. 699 Simon d'Ambreville born. 700 Genevive de Sephora born. 701 Isabelle Gravelotte born. 707 Magdalne d'Ambreville born. Isidore de Fort born. 709 Michel d'Ambreville, leader of the family, dies in battle; his=20 wife Camille assumes control of the family. 710 Henri d'Ambreville born. 715 Andr-Daved de Fort born. 725 Gaston d'Ambreville born.=20 Eventually King H=A3ber the Kind of Averoigne begins to suspect the= =20 family and investigate the rumors of witchcraft. The king's=20 suspicions would inevitably lead to public exposure, seizure of=20 properties, and execution. The d'Ambrevilles would have to flee=20 to some less civilized part of the world to avoid this fate,=20 abandoning their wealth and sophisticated lifestyle. But young tienne d'Ambreville, an accomplished magician, suggests an=20 alternative. In his adventures, he'd discovered a way to travel between=20 worlds. He'd found a land where the d'Ambrevilles might feel at home. If=20 the family went there, they might not have to build a new nation out of=20 wilderness, nor was it likely that their old enemies from Averoigne=20 would ever follow them. After debating the matter, the family agrees.=20 The world they choose to flee to was Mystara. 727 Guillaume d'Ambreville born. Richard marries Isidore de Fort. 728 tienne creates a magical gate, enabling the d'Ambrevilles and=20 their dependents to leave the world of Laterre.=20 During the final days of the transfer of goods through the=20 magical /gate/, disaster strikes. The forces of King H=A3ber the=20 Kind attacked sooner than expected, and Marcel is killed while=20 valiantly protecing the rearguard. Marie-Hlne badly injured but=20 survives.=20 tienne constructed an enormous magical gate between Laterre and=20 Mystara. While politically adroit allies stalled the king, the most=20 powerful d'Ambreville magicians transported all the clan's goods, animal=20 herds, servants, favorite retainers, and treasures across the barrier.=20 Then they moved their entire castle, Chateau d'Ambreville, to the new=20 world piece by piece. The king of Averoigne, alerted that there was=20 unusual activity in the d'Ambreville's dominion, sent his troops there,=20 but they were too late. A rearguard commanded by Marcel d'Ambreville=20 held off the soldiers until the transfer was complete. Although the=20 soldiers killed Marcel and decimated his warriors, all they found were=20 the castle's foundations. The d'Ambrevilles had escaped. On Mystara: 728 The d'Ambrevilles and their vassals, persecuted in their world of= =20 origin, arrive in Glantri.=20 743 The d'Ambrevilles bring more settlers from their mysterious home=20 world. Brannart McGregor and House Crownguard also use this=20 magical passage to Glantri.=20 In 747, the Council of Lords prohibited the teaching of clerical views=20 or practicing of clerical magic. The penalty for violating this law was=20 death by burning. The law made the d'Ambrevilles uncomfortable. tienne's brother Simon=20 was a cleric, and most of the rest, remembering the burnings performed=20 by the Inquisition in Old Averoigne, had no love of the new law. 979 Petit-Singe manages to open a gate from Nouvelle Averoigne to the= =20 castle in the mists, as well as one of tienne's old gates from the=20 castle to the land of Old Averoigne.=20 A band of adventurers finds the castle, explores it, discoveres its=20 secret, and travels to Old Averoigne through the silver gate. There they=20 find the magical items needed and use them to restore tienne. Adventurers are drawn to le Chateau d'Ambreville and break the=20 curse. tienne is released from his dormant state. The chateau=20 crumbles into ruins; all the d'Ambrevilles except tienne age=20 and die.=20 tienne visits Old Averoigne to see what had happened there since the=20 d'Ambrevilles left. Little had changed; a new generation of rulers still=20 hunts magic-users and burnted them as witches. If anything, the nation is= =20 in worse shape than ever.=20 But he discovers that an old friend of his, one who had not come to=20 Mystara, is still alive. Genevive de Sephora, now posing as her own=20 great-granddaughter, still rules the territory of Sylaire from her great=20 tower. She is delighted to see tienne and weary of the worsening=20 situation in Averoigne. She makes him an offer for safe passage into=20 Glantri. She'll help him transport her entire tower to Mystara for him to= =20 live in and help him rebuild his life. He agreed.=20 Together, they move the great tower of Sylaire, carried stone by stone,= =20 through a magical gate back to Nouvelle Averoigne. Malachie du Marais comes to Nouvelle Averoigne from Laterre=20 thanks to the family's magic. Dame Genevive de Sephora follows=20 hot on his trail.=20 =20 House of Crownguard, Principality of Klantyre Origins: The McGregors came from the same world as the d'Ambrevilles,=20 from a land similar to medieval Scotland. The McGregors arrived in=20 Glantri when one of them found the d'Ambrevilles' magical gate (see=20 House of Sylaire for details). Wanted and persecuted for witchcraft in=20 their own world, many made the transition to this world, and today's=20 nobles of the House of Crownguard are their descendants. These otherworldly settlers are human - only their culture and accent=20 distinguish them from Mystarans.=20 Ties to the House of Sylaire: After moving a substantial number of=20 people, the McGregors were unable to keep the gate open. This loss=20 provoked the anger of the d'Ambrevilles, who also were in the process of=20 bringing more people over. Since then the d'Ambrevilles have carried a=20 grudge against the McGregors. The Houses of Crownguard and Sylaire have long feuded, the=20 d'Ambrevilles angry that the McGregors used /their/ magical gateway to=20 reach Glantri. Crownguard's passage prevented some d'Ambreville=20 retainers from making it through before the portal closed. McGregor, Sir Duncan: This brave highlander had to follow his clan=20 into new Averoigne, leaving his beloved Scotland behind. =20 House of Sylaire (La Maison de Sylaire), Principality of Nouvelle=20 Averoigne Origins: The d'Ambreville family, some of their friends, and their=20 retainers came long ago from a parallel world similar to medieval France,= =20 where sorcery was forbidden and mages burned at the stake. The=20 d'Ambrevilles left through a magical gate and settled in Glantri.=20 However, the clan has never told outsiders details of their mysterious=20 home.=20 In the years following their return to Glantri, the d'Ambrevilles=20 managed to assist the passage of other spell-casters from their world to=20 this. These people are now nobles faithful to Sylaire; they, with many=20 of their servants and retainers, now form a fair portion of New=20 Averoigne's population. Most speak both Common Glantrian and French.=20 They were quick to call their new domain "La Nouvelle Averoigne," and=20 rule it the more to resemble their homeland. Alas, they brought with=20 them the curse of lycanthropy, spreading it through New Averoigne's=20 hills.=20 These otherworldly settlers are human - only their culture and accent=20 distinguish them from Mystarans.=20 Ties to the house of Klantyre: The d'Ambrevilles accuse the McGregors=20 of losing one of their /gates/ through negligence. tienne hated the=20 members of House Crownguard for using one of the d'Ambreville gateways to= =20 Mystara.=20 Sire Gilles Grenier came from Old Averoigne with the d'Ambrevilles when= =20 they opened their portal. He murdered his wife Sabine in a fit of passion= =20 when in Old Averoigne, and now his potions are /cursed/. Sire Malachie du Marais is one of the mages who made it across the=20 magical portal to New Averoigne. Although they both belong to the House=20 of Sylaire, he is a fierce enemy of Dame Genevieve de Sephora, who has=20 been stalking him since the times of Old Averoigne.=20 Dame Genevive de Sephora used to be the chatelaine of Sylaire in Old=20 Averoigne.=20 The Mansion and the Tower The Dungeon Room 125: Storage: Treasure In the center of the west wall is a strange object. It looks like a=20 large gate-like doorway that appears to be made of pure silver. In it=20 are three keyholes. This is a magical /gate/ leading back to the other-=20 dimensional realm of Old Averoigne. It requires three identical special=20 silver keys to unlock. When three keys are inserted in the door and turned simultaneously, the= =20 gate will open, revealing a multicolored mist beyond; characters entering= =20 the mist will appear in a roadside clearing in Old Averoigne. This is a=20 one-way gate; there is no similar gate in that clearing to allow return.=20 The companion gate is in a hidden cave on the old d'Ambreville property=20 in Old Averoigne and may be entered the same way; it brings characters to= =20 a wooded spot just outside Chateau Sylaire.=20 =20 This and that on Laterre 10,000 copper pieces and 1,000 silver pieces are a fortune in Laterre. tienne and the others concealed their magical powers while on Laterre.=20 In Old Averoigne women were expected to fulfill certain restricted=20 roles in society, and "soldier" was not one of them. Richard, not tienne, was the oldest of Camille's children, and on=20 Laterre he would have become the family patriarch. (Pardon the accented characters, and lack of same: "tienne" -> "Etienne",= =20 "Marie-Hlne" -> "Marie Helene", "de Fort" -> "de Foret", "Genevive" ->=20 "Genevieve", etc.) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #121 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 28 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 122 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue May 28 04:17:48 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from IO.COM by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 28 May 96 00:17 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA19267 for mystara-l-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 22:17:43 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA19074 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:59:19 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA23917 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:59:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA11771 for mystara-l@io.com; Mon, 27 May 1996 22:59:14 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 22:59:14 -0400 Message-ID: <960527225912_205071658@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@IO.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse Content-Length: 1107 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@IO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@IO.COM In a message dated 96-05-27 18:17:04 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: > From what I recall without checking, Ka had tried to keep the Hollow >World hidden from other Immortals (particularly, say, Alphaks or Nyx) >while it was being created and stocked, but by now it's an "open secret" >in Immortal society. I could be wrong, though.. Do you think Benekander >knows about it? ;) If they didn't know already, the Immortals would have had to have learned of the existence of the Hollow World during the War of the Wrath of the Immortals. Certainly by the time most of the Immortals got to work re-creating Alphatia they all would have known about it. As for Benekander, he would have discovered the Hollow World as soon as the adventurers in "Wrath of the Immortals" told him about the shaft in Aegos - -- if he didn't figure it out sooner from other clues. At the rate things are going, the existence of the Hollow World will soon be common knowledge among mortals as well -- there is too much travel to and from the Hollow World now for it to remain a secret for much longer. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 01:36:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Laterre and Old Averoigne The original "Castle Amber" module was based on an obscure series of novels by Clark Ashton Smith. If anyone can track down some of those novels, we would have far more source material for Old Averoigne and "La Terre". ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue May 28 06:31:12 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 28 May 96 02:31 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA20456 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:44:28 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA20406 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:39:32 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA01127 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:37:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA13095 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 28 May 1996 01:36:40 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 01:36:40 -0400 Message-ID: <960528013640_205151057@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Laterre and Old Averoigne Content-Length: 220 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com The original "Castle Amber" module was based on an obscure series of novels by Clark Ashton Smith. If anyone can track down some of those novels, we would have far more source material for Old Averoigne and "La Terre". ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:48:36 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Laterre and Old Averoigne > The original "Castle Amber" module was based on an obscure series of novels > by Clark Ashton Smith. If anyone can track down some of those novels, we > would have far more source material for Old Averoigne and "La Terre". Do you know any specific titles, or the series name? It might help us to dig them up.. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Wildmule@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:39:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Laterre and Old Averoigne >>The original "Castle Amber" module was based on an obscure series of novels by Clark Ashton Smith. If anyone can track down some of those novels, we would have far more source material for Old Averoigne and "La Terre".<< The specific stories mentioned in the bibliography in X2 (and I think they were short stories, not novels) are: "The Enchantress of Sylaire" in *The Abominations of Yondo* "The Colossus of Ylourgne," "The Disinterment of Venus," and "The Satyr" in *Genius Loci* "The Beast of Averoigne" and "The Holiness of Azedarc" in *Lost Worlds* "The Mandrakes" in *Other Dimensions* "The End of the Story" and "A Rendezvous in Averoigne" in *Out of Space & Time "The Maker of Gargoyles" and "Mother of Toads" in *Tales of Science and Sorcery Next time I'm in a used SF bookstore, I'll look for them... Best regards, Ann Dupuis wildmule@aol.com ghostgames@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ghostgames ------------------------------ From: Wildmule@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:32:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] X10&WotI&CoM Fabrizio Paoli (brizio@lunet.it) wrote: >>I'm currently reading my copy of X10 to see how I should modify it to make it fit into WotI, but I've some problems with the City of Sayr Ulan. My players went there some time ago and I described it as written in CoM, showing them the enclosed map; but the description of Sayr Ulan given in X10 is totally different from the other one. How did you explained this to the players when (and if) you run WotI ? BTW: I know that X10 has been printed before CoM, but I need an explanation in game terms. << The best way, IMHO, is to stick with Sayr Ulan as it's presented in CoM (and as you presented it to your players the first time they visited) -- and to add the Sayr Ulan of X10 (the "tent" city) *around* the city of Sayr Ulan. After all, the tent city sprang up to house the troops of the Master of Hule. There'd be tents everywhere -- in the royal orchards and hunting preserve, in the camp grounds (where visiting merchant caravans once camped), in the surrounding oasis; everywhere. This tent city surrounding the actual city would then be the "Outer City" (as described in X10), while the Inner City would be the actual city of Sayr Ulan as it was before the Master of Hule came (with the addition of lots of guards and soldiers and busy-bodies meddling with the inhabitants' lives, of course). So far as the "Master's Camp" is concerned, you can do a number of things, including having it be a well guarded area within the Outer City (thereby keeping most of its original description in X10), or you can assume that the Master would have taken over the central palace. He can always drain the lake and turn it into a walled, armed camp... Hope this helps... Ann Dupuis wildmule@aol.com ghostgames@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ghostgames ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue May 28 15:00:35 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 28 May 96 11:00 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA23898 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:01:10 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA23728 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:44:57 -0500 Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA15214 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:40:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA10786 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:39:51 -0400 From: Wildmule@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:39:51 -0400 Message-ID: <960528093950_543909976@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Laterre and Old Averoigne Content-Length: 920 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com >>The original "Castle Amber" module was based on an obscure series of novels by Clark Ashton Smith. If anyone can track down some of those novels, we would have far more source material for Old Averoigne and "La Terre".<< The specific stories mentioned in the bibliography in X2 (and I think they were short stories, not novels) are: "The Enchantress of Sylaire" in *The Abominations of Yondo* "The Colossus of Ylourgne," "The Disinterment of Venus," and "The Satyr" in *Genius Loci* "The Beast of Averoigne" and "The Holiness of Azedarc" in *Lost Worlds* "The Mandrakes" in *Other Dimensions* "The End of the Story" and "A Rendezvous in Averoigne" in *Out of Space & Time "The Maker of Gargoyles" and "Mother of Toads" in *Tales of Science and Sorcery Next time I'm in a used SF bookstore, I'll look for them... Best regards, Ann Dupuis wildmule@aol.com ghostgames@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ghostgames ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue May 28 14:58:26 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 28 May 96 10:58 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA23783 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:45:51 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA23646 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:35:25 -0500 Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14830 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:33:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA13712 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:32:41 -0400 From: Wildmule@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:32:41 -0400 Message-ID: <960528093240_543906281@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] X10&WotI&CoM Content-Length: 1794 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Fabrizio Paoli (brizio@lunet.it) wrote: >>I'm currently reading my copy of X10 to see how I should modify it to make it fit into WotI, but I've some problems with the City of Sayr Ulan. My players went there some time ago and I described it as written in CoM, showing them the enclosed map; but the description of Sayr Ulan given in X10 is totally different from the other one. How did you explained this to the players when (and if) you run WotI ? BTW: I know that X10 has been printed before CoM, but I need an explanation in game terms. << The best way, IMHO, is to stick with Sayr Ulan as it's presented in CoM (and as you presented it to your players the first time they visited) -- and to add the Sayr Ulan of X10 (the "tent" city) *around* the city of Sayr Ulan. After all, the tent city sprang up to house the troops of the Master of Hule. There'd be tents everywhere -- in the royal orchards and hunting preserve, in the camp grounds (where visiting merchant caravans once camped), in the surrounding oasis; everywhere. This tent city surrounding the actual city would then be the "Outer City" (as described in X10), while the Inner City would be the actual city of Sayr Ulan as it was before the Master of Hule came (with the addition of lots of guards and soldiers and busy-bodies meddling with the inhabitants' lives, of course). So far as the "Master's Camp" is concerned, you can do a number of things, including having it be a well guarded area within the Outer City (thereby keeping most of its original description in X10), or you can assume that the Master would have taken over the central palace. He can always drain the lake and turn it into a walled, armed camp... Hope this helps... Ann Dupuis wildmule@aol.com ghostgames@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ghostgames ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Averoigne and La terre On Mon, 27 May 1996, LEGRAND Pascal wrote: > Bonjour chers amis, > > As a French I think I have something to say about Averoigne and la Terre. To Matthew Levy I have to say that Averoigne is a mispelling of Auvergne, a french region who belonged to the Duchy of Burgondy in the dark ages. Thanks for the info, and I apologize for my ignorance - I was just From ???@??? Fri May 31 13:36:33 1996 X-UIDL: 180250e9cf5e4896b3d318f01f8fc2e1 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA28245; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:40:21 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA04236 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 21:43:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 21:43:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199605290243.VAA04236@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #122 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk taking a wild guess. What can you tell us about the real Auvergne? > Myself when I think of La Terre I use the stuff from Ars Magica and my history courses, I mix them with other stuff from occultism and esoterism books. Then I use local legends about witches, monsters and devil worshipping and the result looks like a Ravenloft land. sounds cool. What if Averoigne actually is part of Ravenloft and not still a province of France on Laterre? > > I think that the use of some cthulhu mythos is a great idea too, maybe it's the cult behind the devil worshipping ? Perhaps. Remember that Clark Ashton Smith (Averoigne's creator) was an H.P. Lovecraft disciple and used many of his concepts from the mythos. I would say a standard Lovecraft explanation is that ALL devil worship is really worship of the Mythos ... and so is much religion - remember how cynical the view of religion in those stories was - for a real Lovecraftian/Smithian feel, all magic in a Laterre campaign must eventually be derived from the Mythos - perhaps a copy of the Necronomicon could make a campaign-central D&D artifact? > > Hope my post will help, if you have any questions about medieval France, just ask and I'll try to give you answers. cool. What century would you guess (equivalent in culture, tech, etc.) is represented in the X2 description of Laterre? What sorts of myths about devil worship, etc., were there then? (you alluded to some above). thanks, M@2 ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) On Mon, 27 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce the hottest Mystara debate ever... > At the red corner, coming from Italy, the challenger: Fabrizio "Madmen" Paoli... > At the blue corner, from an unknown location in the U.S., the champion of > "realism and logical structure": Matthew Levy... Hey, point taken. I guess I was a bit polemical ... my apologies. However, I still politely disagree with you: > > At 17.30 24/05/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >One Mystara is linear, logical, organized, mathematically predictable. > >One is hyper-dangerous, chaotic, uncertain, irrational, and always > >slightly unfair, though in its own way liberating. > > > >Which sounds more fun to play in? > > I don't know. If well role-played both could be fun. > This is true. However, I feel that the more chaotic and nonlinear campaigns are easier to role play in because they are less constraining and require higher player concentration- in a logical and orderly world, people tend to stop thinking for themselves because everything is spelled out for them ... > Mystara B is probably far too chaotic, irrational and unbelievable, IMO. > A rake in the army ? A Nuar and a Hattian in the same unit ? A Karameikan in > the Thyatian army ?? Thyatians fighting in N'Goro ? probably most Thyatians > don't even know that Yavdlom exists.... chaotic and irrational, yes, but hardly unbelievable. How is it believable that any army - even a modern bureaucratic one - should be so perfectly efficient that everyone is at the precise level appropriate to their rank and that only fighters should be founf there, etc. What about the draft? wouldn't thieves, wizards, maybe even clerics sometimes get drafted? Why shouldn't a Karameikan enlist in the Thyatin army - the British army in the 18th and 19th centuries was made up of Irishmen, Scots, Indians, Bengalis, Nigerians, etc. And how can Thyatis not know Yavdlom exists? In my campaign, which is pretty faithful to the official version, Minrothad, Thyatis, Ierendi, Heldann, and Alphatia all have trade nets extending from the Orc's Head Peninsula to Esterhold, and everybody with any education pretty much knows of all these countries. After all, the savage baronies area has been twice colonized by Thyatis. True, units would usually be segregated by race or nation, but that's not to say that a Nuar and a Hattian might not end up in one of the "general" units. Plus, in my example the Nuar wasn't really part of the unit, just a hanger-on - as there would be in a realistic world. > I would never write something like this for my campaign, nor would I accept > it quietly if I was a player, however if it fits in your campaign it's OK. > Well, of course this is just a gentleman's disagreement. But I dop honestly believe that the real world is more chaotic than you would like to believe, and more challenging and more fun. > Mystara A as you described it can be boring sometimes, but slightly modified > it can be as fun as Mystara B. > Some ideas: roleplay the training and all combat, give Antonio some weeks of > leave between assignments, make him make friends in the army with whom he > can adventure after leaving the army. > What I don't understand is why should he fight in the field also when he > reaches the rank of General, where's the fun of being General then ? A > General usually put his HQ on a hill, from where he can see the battlefield > and give orders to his subordinates. right, but if a general is the highest-level fighter in his unit, he can't be spared to be up on the hill. If the unit is attacked by a dragon for instance, a 12th level fighter might take it down, but 12 1st levels can't. It only makes sense to have a guy with that many hit dice on the field. > I don't remember of Emperor Napoleon locked in melee with enemy soldiers or > officers... (not even firing a rifle or a gun). Probably before becoming > General... right, but Napoleon would have gotten his ass kicked in a fistfight. that's the difference - in a modern (or semi-modern) army, the leaders don't have to possess physical prowess - nor should they really in an ancient army.. By the way, I did like your home page a lot - keep up the good work in spreading and sharing ideas on Mystara. Sorry for being a bit cantankerous. M@2 ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse On Mon, 27 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > BTW: I haven't got the first edition of Creature Catalog, can someone tell > me what this Oards look like ? Even better, could somebody perhaps scan in the entry? (or is that a copyright problem - probably yes, nevermind). M@2 ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse On Tue, 28 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > On Mon, 27 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > > > BTW: I haven't got the first edition of Creature Catalog, can someone tell > > me what this Oards look like ? > > Even better, could somebody perhaps scan in the entry? (or is that a > copyright problem - probably yes, nevermind). Yeah, that is a copyright problem. OTOH, if someone wanted to submit a truly paraphrased entry, that would be fine. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:57:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Averoigne and La terre On Tue, 28 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > Perhaps. Remember that Clark Ashton Smith (Averoigne's creator) was an > H.P. Lovecraft disciple and used many of his concepts from the mythos. I > would say a standard Lovecraft explanation is that ALL devil worship is > really worship of the Mythos ... and so is much religion - remember how > cynical the view of religion in those stories was - for a real > Lovecraftian/Smithian feel, all magic in a Laterre campaign must > eventually be derived from the Mythos - perhaps a copy of the > Necronomicon could make a campaign-central D&D artifact? CAS was hardly a Lovecraft 'disciple'. The two were contemporaries, and, AFAIK, actually friends and correspondents. CAS did make use of certain aspects of the Cthulhu Mythos in one or two of his short stories, even adding to said Mythos with creations of his own (in particular read, "The Seven Geases"- can't think offhand of any others). Such was hardly unusual at the time, many other authors at the time and subsequent have made use of Lovecraft's mythos (which wasn't even considered a 'mythos' at the time). Lovecraft was an incredible horror writer, and to make use of his mythos is IMO, the highest form of flattery. Anyway, CAS wrote primarily Science Fiction short stories, as opposed to Lovecraftian horror or even fantasy stories (like his Averoigne stories). It is a great injustice to rank him as a disciple of Lovecraft, IMO. I hope this isn't taken as a flame, I just wanted to set the record straight, as I am a great admirer of the works of both men, and don't wish to see either done an injustice. Thanks for listening. ;) PS- CAS' stuff really is good. I swear this is the last you'll hear from me plugging his work. ;) ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:30:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse On Sat, 25 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > Yes, I have a copy - not particularly helpful. None of the place names > is from real France as far as I can tell (in fact many are the same as > place names in Nouvelle Averoigne on Mystara). The one striking thing > about Old Averoigne is that it is a much lower tech level than Glantri - > probably more like 12th century AD, which makes sense - also it is > somewhat remote and provincial, is the impression I get - lots of virgin > forest and a few big towns. The similarity of "Averoigne" to "Aquitaine" > (very slight, I admit) makes me wonder if it is supposed to be in Gascony > somewhere. At any rate, Averoigne/Laterre (which is just French for > Earth, of course) did not originate with X2 - you have to go back further > to the Lovecraft-esque original stories of Clark Ashton Smith, and than > will require a very good library than stocks obscure fantasy and sci-fi > from the 30's. I've never read the stories but I assume they should be > enlightening - many of the events and place names in X2 are taken > directly from them. Actually, I believe that CAS's Averoigne was supposed to be based loosely on the Auverne region of France. BTW, if any of you can find them, his Averoigne stories are wonderful. Very beautifully written, incredible stories. I wish that someone would collect his Averoigne stories somewhere- I think that Arkham House has the rights at the moment. Most of his stories are very well done, though I tend to lean more towards the fantasy stories than his Sci-fi ones. Your local library may have a few collections of his. If nothing else, they serve as a great campaign reference for Glantri campaigns- One of my fave ss's is... umm, I can't recall the name offhand, but it deals with a monk who is sent back through time to a dark ages era wherein the only one who can help him home is the sorceress Diane de Malinbois. She is described there very differently from her description in the TSR references- beautiful, scheming- which is how I tend to use her in my campaigns; not as some balding old lady. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 16:12:19 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] C.A.Smith & ancient Mystara (was: Laterre) Thank you, Ann Dupuis, for that bibliography; I'll be searching for those works myself now. :) I looked around on the WWW for what I could find on CAS (Clark Ashton Smith), and found a few items.. Almost all of his stories are linked to one another (eg, a wizard in one has an ancient tome named after him in another, a city gets noted as a ruin in another, etc), so apparently almost all of his works might apply to Laterre. I also found that one of his settings was called "Hyperborea", a land of wizards and demons that flourished untold millenia ago, before being overrun by glaciers. And it just so happens that on Mystara, north of Norwold, there happens to be a glacier-overrun land called Hyperborea... As an aside, I'm curious if anybody has set a campaign about 820 AC or so on Laterre (or, say 1400AD on Earth), with our favorite archmage as an NPC? :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #122 ***************************** From ???@??? Fri May 31 13:36:45 1996 X-UIDL: fec248aaf2726c6e0d6005a2aa64e82d Return-Path: Received: from casper.spirit.com.au by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA08249; Thu, 30 May 1996 02:39:18 +1000 Received: by casper.spirit.com.au (8.7.4/3.03vs) id CAA21718; Thu, 30 May 1996 02:40:35 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 02:40:35 +1000 (EST) From: lostar@spirit.com.au (Damien Maier) Message-Id: <199605291640.CAA21718@casper.spirit.com.au> To: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (Shawn) Subject: Re: Jyhad tournament in Canberra - seeking expressions of interest Newsgroups: aus.games X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Love to enter one. Send me the details and ill pass them to some friends too. ]===================================][===================================] ] ][ Thought for the day : ] ] lostar@spirit.com.au ][ Mary had a little lamb, ] ] Damien Maier ][ Isn't genetic engenering a ] ] ][ wonderful thing? ] ]===================================][===================================] From ???@??? Fri May 31 13:36:50 1996 X-UIDL: ec2a6da2c6716a7c08bfea62f079f083 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA11920; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:09:43 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA19272 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 01:43:26 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 01:43:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199605300643.BAA19272@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #123 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, 30 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 123 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Re: CAS and Lovecraft Sorry if my use of the word "disciple" is irksome. Yes, I realize they were contemporaries and most of what CAS wrote was sci-fi unrelated to his Averoigne fantasies. However, whether he realized it or not, Smith was participating in the creation of a particular school of horror/fantasy/sci-fi fiction which has come to be known as the Cthulhu mythos. In this respect certain names, concepts, attitudes, and images stand out in his work as more mythos-oriented - in this respect I believe he was following the tradition of the mythos, which in some ways extends back before Lovecraft - see for instance "The King in Yellow" or Lord Dunsany. I can't be sure, but it seems to me that Smith was consciously working within the framework most prominently associated with Lovecraft and later codified as a "mythos" by people like Derleth. I like to think of it in these terms because there is a certain consistency and similarity of ideas which gives Mythos stories their own distinctive flavor - just like Star Trek retains its flavor (or tries to) after the death of Gene Roddenberry ... So I did not mean to denigrate Smith's abilities - in some ways he is a better writer than any of the mythos authors, including Lovecraft - I just meant that he is part of the "school" with respect to those stories set in Averoigne and a few others. I apologize for stepping on toes. M@2 ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 11:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oards (was: Chronomancy...) couldn't oards be related to the Borg? hee hee hee hee M@2 ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 11:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] C.A.Smith & ancient Mystara (was: Laterre) On Tue, 28 May 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > I also found that one of his settings was called "Hyperborea", a land of > wizards and demons that flourished untold millenia ago, before being > overrun by glaciers. And it just so happens that on Mystara, north of > Norwold, there happens to be a glacier-overrun land called Hyperborea... I may get slammed again for this ... but isn't "Hyperborea" intended as a not-so-veiled reference to the "Hyborea" of the Conan stories by Howard? He was another contemporary of Lovecraft and Smith and there may have been some crossreferencing there too ... and doesn't the original D&D world map say "Hyborea" anyway? M@2 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 29 May 96 20:19:52 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) At 09.07 28/05/96 -0700, you wrote: >> I don't know. If well role-played both could be fun. >> > >This is true. However, I feel that the more chaotic and nonlinear >campaigns are easier to role play in because they are less constraining >and require higher player concentration- in a logical and orderly world, >people tend to stop thinking for themselves because everything is spelled >out for them ... > Yes, but it depends on the quality and number of players. In my campaign there are only 3 players and it's difficult that they get absent-minded, while in the Forgotten Realm campaign where I play we're 6 players and usually the DM, who is very patient, often has to repeat the same thing 2 or 3 times before anyone listen to him. >What about >the draft? wouldn't thieves, wizards, maybe even clerics sometimes get >drafted? It depends on the army. A "conventional" one (i.e. without magic) wouldn't draft wizards; a thief wouldn't wear heavy armors; many clerics wouldn't use swords or arrows, so I think it depends on how the army is equipped. >Why shouldn't a Karameikan enlist in the Thyatin army - the >British army in the 18th and 19th centuries was made up of Irishmen, >Scots, Indians, Bengalis, Nigerians, etc. But those were English colonies, as Ochalea and Nuar for Thyatis. >And how can Thyatis not know Yavdlom exists? In my campaign, which is >pretty faithful to the official version, Minrothad, Thyatis, Ierendi, >Heldann, and Alphatia all have trade nets extending from the Orc's Head >Peninsula to Esterhold, and everybody with any education pretty much >knows of all these countries. After all, the savage baronies area has >been twice colonized by Thyatis. True, but also Thyatis forgot twice about those colonies. And I think that Minrothad and Ierendi ships rarely adventure beyond the Serpent Peninsula, after all Haldemar was one of the first Alphatian ever to see the Savage coast, I think. IMC an educated Thyatian knows of the countries listed in the Thyatian Trail Maps and those part of the Empire (Ochalea, Nuar, Hinterlands, Isle of Dawn), and probably something about Norwold and Alphatia, but not much. >right, but if a general is the highest-level fighter in his unit, he >can't be spared to be up on the hill. If the unit is attacked by a >dragon for instance, a 12th level fighter might take it down, but 12 1st >levels can't. It only makes sense to have a guy with that many hit dice >on the field. True, but usually I think of armies battling other armies, it's the party of adventurers that should take care of big monsters. On the other hand if you have a humanoid army with a dragon as ally... > >> I don't remember of Emperor Napoleon locked in melee with enemy soldiers or >> officers... (not even firing a rifle or a gun). Probably before becoming >> General... > >right, but Napoleon would have gotten his ass kicked in a fistfight. >that's the difference - in a modern (or semi-modern) army, the leaders >don't have to possess physical prowess - nor should they really in an >ancient army.. Mmmh.. Probably I took a bad example, but Napoleon is one of my favourites historical charachters... :-) > >By the way, I did like your home page a lot - keep up the good work in >spreading and sharing ideas on Mystara. Sorry for being a bit cantankerous. Don't worry, and check my page often. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 16:02:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oards (was: Chronomancy...) >couldn't oards be related to the Borg? > Actually, I haven't seen the Oards in any Monster Book, but they are in an old module I just bought, Where Chaos Reigns (can't remember if it's CM5 or CM6, or something else CM, it's at home). In that module they look very much like the Borg. (In fact I remember checking the copywrite date of the module just to make sure it couldn't be a borg rip-off.) I wasn't aware they were in any other published stuff til this thread started. (I didn't think they were *that* interesting as an idea for a fantasy game.) The Creature Catalog entry is probably mostly taken from the module, I'll look for it when I get home and try to make a synopsis. :-) - -Bob ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Wed, 29 May 96 18:30:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 28-May-96 03:30 PM > > From: Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One \ Internet: (jsmill@imap1.asu.edu) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chronomancy & the Multiverse > > On Sat, 25 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > > BTW, if any of you can find them, his Averoigne stories are wonderful. Very > beautifully written, incredible stories. I wish that someone would collect his > Averoigne stories somewhere- I think that Arkham House has the rights at the > moment. - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Last year I went poking around the Lovecraft/Mythos areas of the 'net, for just these reasons (ie, X2), and was eventually informed that Arkham House was indeed supposedly reprinting some of CAS' stories soon. Could even be out by now... Shelby ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 15:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) Ah! Yet another gentlemen's disagreement: On Wed, 29 May 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >and require higher player concentration- in a logical and orderly world, > >people tend to stop thinking for themselves because everything is spelled > >out for them ... > > > Yes, but it depends on the quality and number of players. In my campaign > there are only 3 players and it's difficult that they get absent-minded, > while in the Forgotten Realm campaign where I play we're 6 players and > usually the DM, who is very patient, often has to repeat the same thing 2 or > 3 times before anyone listen to him. well, yes, that happens in my campaign too. It also depends on the age of the players, how much caffeine they've ingested, what is on TV, etc. But even in this sense I still prefer a chaotic campaign - when characters have more freedom and are thus more responsible for their own fates, they pay attention. If, for instance, I was to have players be a military unit with strict chain of command and they were all fighters, I would expect the privates to lose interest very quick, as they would have neither freedom nor responsibility to think for themselves. If, on the other hand, order and discipline are corrupt or suspect or even completely lacking and its every man for himself, people tend to pay more attention. > > >What about > >the draft? wouldn't thieves, wizards, maybe even clerics sometimes get > >drafted? > > It depends on the army. A "conventional" one (i.e. without magic) wouldn't > draft wizards; a thief wouldn't wear heavy armors; many clerics wouldn't use > swords or arrows, so I think it depends on how the army is equipped. ahh, but even a conventional army could probably find a use for a mage - and anyway, there's nothing that says mages can't actually strap on armor and weapons when forced, it's just they'll be incompetent at it and unable to use their spells. And most foot soldiers wouldn't have metal armor anyway, so thieves in leather armor would be perfect infantrymen. Clerics could be given special exceptions for their beliefs, but this shouldn't be a problem - any realistic medieval army would have people carrying maces and hammers as well as swords and bows. > > >Why shouldn't a Karameikan enlist in the Thyatin army - the > >British army in the 18th and 19th centuries was made up of Irishmen, > >Scots, Indians, Bengalis, Nigerians, etc. > > But those were English colonies, as Ochalea and Nuar for Thyatis. point taken, but Karameikos was a Thyatin colony till very recently - and anyway examples of people crossing borders to join armies were very common until the modern era of nationalism. Especially a sea going unit (either marines or sailors) would probably pick up replacements by press gang at whatever port they were in at the time - another common English tactic. > > >And how can Thyatis not know Yavdlom exists? In my campaign, which is > >pretty faithful to the official version, Minrothad, Thyatis, Ierendi, > >Heldann, and Alphatia all have trade nets extending from the Orc's Head > >Peninsula to Esterhold, and everybody with any education pretty much > >knows of all these countries. After all, the savage baronies area has > >been twice colonized by Thyatis. > > True, but also Thyatis forgot twice about those colonies. And I think that > Minrothad and Ierendi ships rarely adventure beyond the Serpent Peninsula, > after all Haldemar was one of the first Alphatian ever to see the Savage > coast, I think. > IMC an educated Thyatian knows of the countries listed in the Thyatian Trail > Maps and those part of the Empire (Ochalea, Nuar, Hinterlands, Isle of > Dawn), and probably something about Norwold and Alphatia, but not much. > again, a difference in campaign style. You make yourr case well; I just tend to disregard those particular parts of the gazeteers because I prefer a more cosmopolitan world for my campaign. > >right, but if a general is the highest-level fighter in his unit, he > >can't be spared to be up on the hill. If the unit is attacked by a > >dragon for instance, a 12th level fighter might take it down, but 12 1st > >levels can't. It only makes sense to have a guy with that many hit dice > >on the field. > > True, but usually I think of armies battling other armies, it's the party of > adventurers that should take care of big monsters. On the other hand if you > have a humanoid army with a dragon as ally... > well, it makes sense to me that armies would make good use of every available ally who might help them win - the view of warfare you seem to hold just seems way to clean to me to work for a medieval fantasy world. Battles in my campaign are massive, complex, sloppy, nasty, chaotic and unpredictable. The Master, for instance, might send an army over the passes into the Five Shires - at the head would be a group of Gnoll scouts accompanied by a small group of Hulean knights on griffons, who From ???@??? Fri May 31 13:36:50 1996 X-UIDL: ec2a6da2c6716a7c08bfea62f079f083 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA11920; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:09:43 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA19272 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 01:43:26 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 01:43:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199605300643.BAA19272@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #123 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk might be ambushed by a group of mercenary dwarves allied to King Stefan and funded by Ierendi merchants and accompanied by a pro-Thyatin Ylari wizard with a charmed Umber Hulk, leading to a vicious battle in which the Dwarves' position was undermined by Kobold sappers and attacked by greek fire being dropped on them by the griffon riders, supported by Orcish archers, at which point the Master might send through his juggernauts, which might get trapped in pits dug by halfling commandoes on the other side of the pass .... and that's relatively simple ... > > Mmmh.. Probably I took a bad example, but Napoleon is one of my favourites > historical charachters... :-) > > > >By the way, I did like your home page a lot - keep up the good work in > >spreading and sharing ideas on Mystara. Sorry for being a bit cantankerous. > > Don't worry, and check my page often. > I shall. M@2 ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:21:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oards (was: Chronomancy...) In a message dated 96-05-29 17:59:44 EDT, kaelin@natural.com (Robert Kaelin) writes: >In that module they look very much like the Borg. (In fact I remember >checking the copywrite date of the module just to make sure it couldn't be >a borg rip-off.) But the reverse is possible -- could the Borg be an Oard rip-off? After all, it is not beyond possibility that the writers of ST:TNG included at least one D&D player. But I suspect that a little research would show that there are even older precedents for such cyborgs. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:21:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) In a message dated 96-05-29 17:29:48 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: >It depends on the army. A "conventional" one (i.e. without magic) wouldn't >draft wizards; a thief wouldn't wear heavy armors; many clerics wouldn't use >swords or arrows, so I think it depends on how the army is equipped. Well of course an army without magic would not draft wizards or clerics -- there wouldn't be any to draft. But thieves would be no problem -- since heavy armor is expensive and most thieves come from the lower classes anyway, they would naturally wind up in the light infantry, where their armor restrictions would pose no problems at all. But, given that Mystara is a magic-rich world, most Mystaran armies would employ spellcasters as effectively as possible. If you remember from the "Dawn of Emperors" boxed set, Thyatians respect combat ability more than anything else -- and a wizard hurling fireballs at the enemy has an extremely effective combat ability, even if he is useless in hand-to-hand combat. And Clerics are even more useful, as they fight almost as well as Fighters, have no armor restrictions, and can get wounded troops back into the fray. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu May 30 03:28:47 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 29 May 96 23:28 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA17108 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:36:26 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA17039 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:30:48 -0500 Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA16316 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:22:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA01888 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 29 May 1996 22:21:39 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:21:39 -0400 Message-ID: <960529222137_123603975@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oards (was: Chronomancy...) Content-Length: 525 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-05-29 17:59:44 EDT, kaelin@natural.com (Robert Kaelin) writes: >In that module they look very much like the Borg. (In fact I remember >checking the copywrite date of the module just to make sure it couldn't be >a borg rip-off.) But the reverse is possible -- could the Borg be an Oard rip-off? After all, it is not beyond possibility that the writers of ST:TNG included at least one D&D player. But I suspect that a little research would show that there are even older precedents for such cyborgs. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu May 30 03:32:32 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 29 May 96 23:32 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA17103 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:36:02 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA17037 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:30:36 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA16314 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:22:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA23579 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 29 May 1996 22:21:37 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:21:37 -0400 Message-ID: <960529222136_123603957@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) Content-Length: 1175 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-05-29 17:29:48 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: >It depends on the army. A "conventional" one (i.e. without magic) wouldn't >draft wizards; a thief wouldn't wear heavy armors; many clerics wouldn't use >swords or arrows, so I think it depends on how the army is equipped. Well of course an army without magic would not draft wizards or clerics -- there wouldn't be any to draft. But thieves would be no problem -- since heavy armor is expensive and most thieves come from the lower classes anyway, they would naturally wind up in the light infantry, where their armor restrictions would pose no problems at all. But, given that Mystara is a magic-rich world, most Mystaran armies would employ spellcasters as effectively as possible. If you remember from the "Dawn of Emperors" boxed set, Thyatians respect combat ability more than anything else -- and a wizard hurling fireballs at the enemy has an extremely effective combat ability, even if he is useless in hand-to-hand combat. And Clerics are even more useful, as they fight almost as well as Fighters, have no armor restrictions, and can get wounded troops back into the fray. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 21:25:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hyborea (was: C.A.Smith & ancient Mystara) On Wed, 29 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > I may get slammed again for this ... but isn't "Hyperborea" > intended as a not-so-veiled reference to the "Hyborea" of the Conan > stories by Howard? He was another contemporary of Lovecraft and Smith > and there may have been some crossreferencing there too ... and doesn't > the original D&D world map say "Hyborea" anyway? Actually, it is supposed to be Hyborea, and I believe there was intended to be some sort of connection between the Conan series and this region, though perhaps long in the past (of both Mystara and TSR- ie, pre-Gazetteer days). In fact, in at least one article of Dragon Magazine, in his Known World Grimoire, Bruce Heard suggests that the people of the Minaen Coast be pirates in the tradition of one of the tribes of seafaring peoples of the Conan series (having not read it, I'm not sure which ones, though). ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 21:21:54 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: CAS and Lovecraft On Wed, 29 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > So I did not mean to denigrate Smith's abilities - in some ways he is a > better writer than any of the mythos authors, including Lovecraft - I > just meant that he is part of the "school" with respect to those stories > set in Averoigne and a few others. > > I apologize for stepping on toes. No need for apologies, as far as I am concerned. And if my post was seen as something of a flame, please accept my apologies. ;) My intent in posting my comment on the 'disciple' bit, was merely to point out that both CAS and HPL are very good writers, and have very distinctive styles- Lovecraft's being, IMO, his talent at spine-tingling, psychological horror, and CAS' being his tremendous grasp of language, and his ability to create a vivid picture from his use of brilliant prose. Both men have done some similar works, and HPL's has since come to be known popularly as the "Cthulhu Mythos", though he has done stories outside of the horror genre, and CAS' works were primarily Sci-fi, though he has done works in the horror genre, and has, perhaps unfortunately, perhaps not, come to be recognized mainly for his connection to the so called Mythos. Having been a fan of CAS' long before the I ever heard of the Mythos (since I first played in X2- Castle Amber, in fact), I am a bit disparaged by the fact that he is often seen only in light of his contributions to the Mythos, but I am a great fan of both authors' works, and, as a semi-serious author (at least, when I can find my muse), I felt it necessary to acknowledge CAS as more than a mere disciple of HPL's, as are other authors of Mythos stories- Robert Bloch, Ramsey Campbell- who have distinguished themselves in fashions not associated solely with the Mythos. If there is one person I would place in the disciple category, it would be August Derleth himself, but that belongs well out of the range of this discussion, which has already passed out of the realms of the list, anyway. ;) At any rate, no apologies necessary, except perhaps on my end if my message wasn't received well. Also apologies as necessary to the rest of the list for dragging the Amber topic a bit out of our realm of interest. (Though that brings up an interesting point- any fans of Zelazny's Amber out there ever try to tie that series in with the Amber family of Glantri?) ------------------------------ From: "Alex Gregoire" Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 01:28:18 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Need Infos Hi, This is my first post so I hope I'm not making any mistakes:). I was playing D&D back in the 80s and after 8 years I found friends at school to play a D&D campaign but we need some infos. We are now about 15th level and we want to build castles, travel through planes, ect. Any help about the following topics will be apreciate. You can e-mail me infos or web and ftp sites. If the infos are available on books please tell me the name and number of those books. Please only TSR approved stuff no home made rules. I need informations about Planes, expescially outer planes. Descriptions of planes, ruler, effect on magic and a map of planes to find communicating planes. I'm looking for hull points, THAC0 and CA for War Machines like ballista and catapult. I got the "Wrath of Immortals" and I want to know if there is a book only about immortals? Where those immortals are living? And some infos about creating religions for priest depending on is immortal? What is the best buy for an introduction to the Hollow World? I want to make 2 or 3 small adventures on the Hollow World. Thanks, Alex Gregoire ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Thu, 30 May 96 0:53:02 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) Kaviyd@aol.com writes: > But, given that Mystara is a magic-rich world, most Mystaran armies would > employ spellcasters as effectively as possible. If you remember from the > "Dawn of Emperors" boxed set, Thyatians respect combat ability more than > anything else -- and a wizard hurling fireballs at the enemy has an extremely > effective combat ability, even if he is useless in hand-to-hand combat. And > Clerics are even more useful, as they fight almost as well as Fighters, have > no armor restrictions, and can get wounded troops back into the fray. I agree with your argument, but I question the DAWN OF THE EMPERORS reference as a proof. Does the refernce say that Thyatians respect "Combat Ability" or "Comabat Effectiveness"? If the former is the case, I would be more inclined to assume that it pertains to skill at arms. If the latter is the case, I would say that this proves your point quite well. Personaly, based on the militaristic nature of the Thyatians, and their animosity with both Alphatia and Glantri, I would think that they would be less open to the concept of Mages as warriors, despite their effectiveness at such a task. By the way, I am new to this list. I just wanted to say "How do" to other Mystara fans out there and I will try not to step on anyone's toes; I am not a newbie to the net so no worrys there. Later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Definition of a Pesismist: What an Optimist calls a Realist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #123 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 31 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 124 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Date: 30 May 1996 14:05:16 GMT Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] C.A.Smith & ancient Mystara (was: Laterre) Hyperborea is what the Greeks named northern Europe, and the 'Hyborea' from the Conan series is merely a corruption of the original Greek. Hyperborea refers to most of Scandinavia, which explains why in Mystara why it is covered by glaciers. Andrew McKinstry ------------------------------ From: Henrik Nordhus Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 16:42:16 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] C.A. Smith At 16:12 28.05.96 -0400, Daniel Boese wrote: > I also found that one of his settings was called "Hyperborea", a land of >wizards and demons that flourished untold millenia ago, before being >overrun by glaciers. And it just so happens that on Mystara, north of >Norwold, there happens to be a glacier-overrun land called Hyperborea... And it just so happens that Robert E. Howard has a little something called Hyboria. Clark A. Smith also makes use of Atlantis, Mu and a couple of other myths that are found in the Conan and Kull stories. I believe I read somewhere that C.A. Smith corresponded with both Lovecraft and Howard. Howard, interestingly enough, also uses part of the Cuthulu mythos in his Conan-stories. It's off-subject yes, but I wanted to get that off my chest. There are two C.A. Smith short-stories on the net. It's a long time since I downloaded them, but try searching for his name on Alta Vista Search (Advanced mode). Also, there's a link at "The Fantasy Collector" homepage to these stories. (Sorry, don't have the adress for that one either) None of these have anything to do with Averoigne though. - ----------------------------------------------- Henrik Nordhus __ Hausmannsgt. 34 )^^( 0182 Oslo ^^ NORWAY IF THIS MESSAGE Phone : 22207746 WAS MEANINGFUL : DESTROY IT AT ONCE! E-Mail : Henrik.nordhus@hfstud.uio.no - ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 17:47:04 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Need Infos On Thu, 30 May 1996, Alex Gregoire wrote: > I need informations about Planes, expescially outer planes. Descriptions > of planes, ruler, effect on magic and a map of planes to find > communicating planes. oops. I was suppused to submit something on that, I think. I was also planning on sending you soem stuff on Immortals.. However, my situation is kind of complicated at the moment. I will have to leave this list for an undefined period of time. I hope you will survive without me. I hope to reaturn and share my wisdom with you, as I have enjoyed learning from your experiences. Hope you arent annoyed by this goodbye-for-now message Haavard Faanes ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oards (was: Chronomancy...) On Wed, 29 May 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 96-05-29 17:59:44 EDT, kaelin@natural.com (Robert Kaelin) > writes: > > >In that module they look very much like the Borg. (In fact I remember > >checking the copywrite date of the module just to make sure it couldn't be > >a borg rip-off.) > > But the reverse is possible -- could the Borg be an Oard rip-off? After all, > it is > not beyond possibility that the writers of ST:TNG included at least one D&D > player. But I suspect that a little research would show that there are even > older precedents for such cyborgs. > Possibly. Then again, the idea of such cyborgs is not so complex that it couldn't have been independent invention. However, Mystara-hounds may want to know that supposedly the "Gremlins" movies were inspired by a D&D game in which Spielberg himself met the gremlins in X2. I of course have no authoritative source for this, so it is probably a myth, but who knows. It's a nice story anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Spielberg were a gamer in his youth. m@2 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 30 May 96 20:00:10 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) At 00.53 30/05/96 EDT, you wrote: >Kaviyd@aol.com writes: > >> But, given that Mystara is a magic-rich world, most Mystaran armies would >> employ spellcasters as effectively as possible. If you remember from the >> "Dawn of Emperors" boxed set, Thyatians respect combat ability more than >> anything else -- and a wizard hurling fireballs at the enemy has an extremely >> effective combat ability, even if he is useless in hand-to-hand combat. And >> Clerics are even more useful, as they fight almost as well as Fighters, have >> no armor restrictions, and can get wounded troops back into the fray. > >I agree with your argument, but I question the DAWN OF THE EMPERORS >reference as a proof. Does the refernce say that Thyatians respect >"Combat Ability" or "Comabat Effectiveness"? If the former is the case, I >would be more inclined to assume that it pertains to skill at arms. If >the latter is the case, I would say that this proves your point quite well. >Personaly, based on the militaristic nature of the Thyatians, and their >animosity with both Alphatia and Glantri, I would think that they would be >less open to the concept of Mages as warriors, despite their effectiveness >at such a task. > DotE says that Thyatian respect Magic efficiency, it's on page 10 of Book two. After Thyatis has his own school of magic: College of Lucinius, and also the Foresters (magic-using fighters). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 16:04:04 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] C.A.Smith's Old Averoigne I found "Lost Worlds" by CAS today and bought it, and willing be getting "Genius Loci" and "Out of Space & Time" soon.. all of which have stories set in Averoigne. If anybody is interested, I can collate the information on the world itself and post it.. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: LEGRAND Pascal Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:55:44 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] Hyborea and Hyperborea Hello again, Well, maybe I've missed a bit of that discussion but Hyperborea isn't a = creation of REH. In the old germanic/scandinavian legends Hyperborea is = the place of origin of the Race (from their point of view), and its = capital city is Thule (you can find such a place in Groenland now). That's not surprising from REH who was fond of history and took many = ideas from it such as the Cimmerians (a folk who lived in Ukraine), the = Picts (in that case only the name is the same because the real Picts = weren't so ape like), the pointain (a mispelling of a french region = called the Poitou) and so on... I think this is a great idea of REH, because in using old places and = names of our world he made us more familiar and appealed to his own = creations. Back to our Mystara interest I would be surprised that TSR wanted to = introduce teh Conan world in their own. I think the TSR staff used the = Hyperborea name because it was self explanatory about the landscape and = the strangeness of this land (think of snow white plains covering an old = civilization...). About HPL and CAS I'd just like to had that these two were friends and = that HPL wrote something in a novel (my memory is fading with age...) = about a sorcerer/priest called Klarkashton (sp?). By now I'm moving and this get me VERY busy but when I will have some = time I'll try to send you some interseting things (strange places, = monsters, legends and superstition) about Auvergne and Hyperborea. But = if you think this kind of stuff doesn't have to appear on this list = because it's not related enough to Mystara just say it and I'll keep my = hands off my keyword (except for private mails to some of you, hello = Matthew). Bonsoir chers amis... Pascal ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 16:03:32 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Dragon Magazine List A quick list of the Dragon Magazines which mention Mystara: The first column is the issue #, the second which part of the Princess Ark saga (if any) it contains, and the 3rd the subject of whatever's in it. 148 - "Around the World in 36 Levels" 153 1 1964: Nyxmir 11, 1965: Alphamir 15, Sulamir 10, 25, Sudmir 3, 25, 26, Vertmir 1, 4 154 2 1965: Vertmir 7, 17, 18, Tsalmir 8, 11, 18 155 3 1965: Tsalmir 19-Andrumir 11 156 4 1965: Andrumir 12, 24, 26, 28, Cyprimir 1 157 5 1965: Cyprimir 10, 16, 18-21, 24, 25 (Vulture Peninsula) 158 6 1965: Hastmir 4, 6-8, 16, 17, 25 (Vulture Peninsula/ N'djatwa) 160 7 1965: Hastmir 26-Eimir 15 (Myoshima/The Second Moon) 161 8 1965: Eimir 16-18, 22-26, Burymir 1-5, 12, 19, 26, Nyxmir 5, 12, 15, 16, 19, 21-25 (Trench of Ka/White Peninsula, monster: Vulcanian sloth) 162 9 1965: Nyxmir 26, 28, Amphmir 3, 5, 7-12, 16-18, 22 (Oostdok trade houses) 163 10 1965: Amphimir 23-26, 28, 1966: Alphamir 15, 19-25 (monster: night dragon) 164 11 ? (hero: Haldemar of Haaken (mage), hero: Talasar Ecbashur (cleric), monster: sky wyrm) 165 12 2000: Sulamir 26, Sudmir 17, 19, 20, 25, 26 (Isle of Dawn, hero: Myojo Katamura (fighter), hero: Abovombe (fighter), hero: Nabonidus Raman (mage) ) 166 13 2000: Vertmir 11, 13, 15, 16, 28, Tsalmir 1-5 (Kingdom of Emerond) 167 14 2000: Tsalmir 8-12 (Thothian enchantment, heroine: Ashari Sunlil (thief), hero: Tarias of Arogansa (fighter), hero: Leo of Le Nerviens (gnome), hero: Ramissur Zumrulim (mage) ) 168 15 2000: Tsalmir 12, 16, 17, 20-22 (Deck plans) 169 16 2000: Tsalmir 23-26, 28, Andrumir 4, 8, 12, 14-19 (Kingdom of Sind) 170 17 2000: Cyprimir 12, 18. 24-28 (Yavdlom Divinarchy, map errata: Kingdom of Sind) 171 18 2000: Hastmir 1, 3-5, 10, 16-18, 24 (Savage Coast, Slagovich, seed of cinnabar, cinnabryl) (dragons/dragon kingdoms) (review: B11, B12, DDA1, DDA2) 172 19 2000: Hastmir 25-28, Eimir 1 (essence of cinnabar, cinnabryl, Hule) 173 20 2000: Eimir 5 (Hule) 174 21 2000: Eimir 7-10 (monster: errant soul, The Savage Baronies) 175 22 2000: Eimir 12-15, 22 (The Savage Coast, Almarron, Gargona, Guadalante, Saragon) 176 23 2000: Eimir 24, 25, 28, Burymir 1, 3-5, 8 (Claw Peninsula) 177 24 2000: Burymir 14-18, 20 (Confederated Kingdom of Robrenn) (review: Rules Cyclopedia) 178 25 2000: Burymir 23-28 (Kingdom of Eusedria) 179 26 2000: Burymir 28, 2001: Nyxmir 1-3, 6-10 (Kingdom of Renardy) 180 27 2000: Nyxmir 18-20, 22, 23 (Kingdom of Bellayne, Limbo) 181 28 2000: Nyxmir 24-28, Amphimir 1-5 (Kingdom of Bellayne) 182 29 - (miscellany) 183 30 2001: Amphimir 11, 13-15 (Lands of the Great Magus, Magocracy of Herath) 184 31 - (miscellany) 185 32 2001: Amphimir 23-25, Alphamir 4, 8-11, 13, 14 (Squamous Kingdoms, Ah'roog City, Kingdom of Ator, Bayou, Kingdom of Cay, Tu'eth City) 186 33 2001: Alphamir 17-21 (Land of Wallera) 187 34 - (retainer costs/fief-holder income) 188 35 2001: Alphamir 25-28, Sulamir 1 (phanatons/Land of Jibaru) 189 - Known World Grimoire (economics/population/food/terrain) 190 - Known World Grimoire (population growth/deforestation/mining) 191 - Grimoire: armies and warfare 192 - Grimoire: manscorpions of Nimmur 193 - Grimoire: castle design/servents/operation 194 - Grimoire: advice 196 - Grimoire: Dark Jungle pantheon/Orc's Head Peninsula 197 - Grimoire: AD&D conversion, misc 199 - Grimoire: heraldry; combat: gunpowder/ballista/siege weapons 200 - lords of the skies/Aeryl/Eshu/Ee'aar 206 - "Karameikos, Ho!" 207 - The Magic of Karameikos (PS: If anybody has a copy of 155, 160, 176, 188 or 200, could you email me? I'm still missing them, and what info they have.. :) ) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Thu, 30 May 96 22:40:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] C.A.Smith's Old Averoigne - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Thursday, 30-May-96 04:04 PM > > From: Daniel Boese \ Internet: (dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: [Mystara] C.A.Smith's Old Averoigne > > I found "Lost Worlds" by CAS today and bought it, and willing be getting > "Genius Loci" and "Out of Space & Time" soon.. all of which have stories set in > Averoigne. > If anybody is interested, I can collate the information on the world itself > and post it.. > > -- > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca > > - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Very interested!!! Thanks, Shelby ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Thu, 30 May 96 22:41:08 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Amber/Amber - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Wednesday, 29-May-96 09:21 PM > From: Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One \ Internet: (jsmill@imap1.asu.edu) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: CAS and Lovecraft > On Wed, 29 May 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > (Though that brings up an interesting point- any fans of Zelazny's Amber out > there ever try to tie that series in with the Amber family of Glantri?) - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Actually, funny you should mention that! Being a big fan of Zelazny's Amber, the thought had occured to me. It occured to my players as well, and they conjectured aloud during a gaming session. Especially when they found the "game room" in X2, with a deck of cards. I would also be interested in ideas relating to combining these two ideas, especially notes that have already been play-tested. Anyone? Shelby Michlin ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 20:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] C.A.Smith's Old Averoigne On Thu, 30 May 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > I found "Lost Worlds" by CAS today and bought it, and willing be getting > "Genius Loci" and "Out of Space & Time" soon.. all of which have stories > set in Averoigne. > If anybody is interested, I can collate the information on the world > itself and post it.. > > -- > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca > > Yes, please do - esp. anything relevant to Glantri's NPC's. M@2 ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 00:00:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) In a message dated 96-05-30 02:57:37 EDT, dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) writes: >Personaly, based on the militaristic nature of the Thyatians, and their >animosity with both Alphatia and Glantri, I would think that they would be >less open to the concept of Mages as warriors, despite their effectiveness >at such a task. Thyatians would have a different attitude towards magic from Alphatia and Glantri. While their animosity towards Alphatia might seem to make them distrust wizards, their animosity towards Ylaruam (where wizards may be put to death) would probably lead them to think that wizards cannot be all bad. Whereas the two magocracies respect wizards for their arcane powers, regardless of how they are used, Thyatians would rate them for combat effectiveness, period. Thus, an Evoker would be much more respected than a wimpy Diviner or Illusionist. Of course, the "wimps" could do very well as Thyatian politicians. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 01:18:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragon Magazine List In a message dated 96-05-30 18:45:40 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: >(PS: If anybody has a copy of 155, 160, 176, 188 or 200, could you email >me? I'm still missing them, and what info they have.. :) ) I have all five issues. Roughly, here is what each one covers: 155: The Princess Ark visits the Isle of Cestia, where they battle the night dragon and contact the Cestians. This is the issue where Lady Abovombe joins the crew of the Princess Ark. The Cestian "Bolas of Sunlight" are also described. 160: The Princess Ark breaks through the skyshield around Mystara and is attacked by Rakasta from the invisible moon Myoshima, who capture the ship and seize their Heldannic prisoner Rolf. After Rolf escapes, the Rakasta seize Lady Abovombe and hold her hostage pending Rolf's recapture by the crew of the Ark. Three Rakasta join the crew. This article also details the Rakasta nations of Myoshima. 176: The Princess Ark arrives in Smokestone City in County Cimarron, an Old Western-style nation ruled by Earl John (later corrected to Duke John) of the Wain. This article describes various skills related to the use of the Cimarron six-shooter, an intricate repeating crossbow. 188: The Princess Ark's crew meet the Phanatons of Jibaru, at the western end of the Savage Coast. Meanwhile, Haldemar uses his magic to travel back to Alphatia. However, on the way he is diverted to the secret area underneath Glantri City, where he discovers the Nucleus of the Spheres (although all he is able to figure out is that it is an extremely powerful artifact of some kind). Haldemar finally reaches Alphatia and tells the Empress what he saw. This article concludes with a description of Phanaton PCs in "Creature Crucible" format. 200: This article describes the Arm of the Immortals and its (mostly aerial) inhabitants. This article includes a tantalizing reference to two nations of civilized half-Ogres from Tangor. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri May 31 05:43:52 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 31 May 96 01:43 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA00501 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:17:47 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA00421 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:01:22 -0500 Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA06218 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:01:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA07788 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 31 May 1996 00:00:54 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 00:00:54 -0400 Message-ID: <960531000051_404271640@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] 2 Mystara (was: The Military) Content-Length: 950 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-05-30 02:57:37 EDT, dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) writes: >Personaly, based on the militaristic nature of the Thyatians, and their >animosity with both Alphatia and Glantri, I would think that they would be >less open to the concept of Mages as warriors, despite their effectiveness >at such a task. Thyatians would have a different attitude towards magic from Alphatia and Glantri. While their animosity towards Alphatia might seem to make them distrust wizards, their animosity towards Ylaruam (where wizards may be put to death) would probably lead them to think that wizards cannot be all bad. Whereas the two magocracies respect wizards for their arcane powers, regardless of how they are used, Thyatians would rate them for combat effectiveness, period. Thus, an Evoker would be much more respected than a wimpy Diviner or Illusionist. Of course, the "wimps" could do very well as Thyatian politicians. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri May 31 06:36:08 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 31 May 96 02:36 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA00916 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 00:32:54 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA00824 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 00:20:13 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA10063 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 00:18:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA25121; Fri, 31 May 1996 01:18:04 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 01:18:04 -0400 Message-ID: <960531011803_207433847@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca Cc: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragon Magazine List Content-Length: 1961 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-05-30 18:45:40 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: >(PS: If anybody has a copy of 155, 160, 176, 188 or 200, could you email >me? I'm still missing them, and what info they have.. :) ) I have all five issues. Roughly, here is what each one covers: 155: The Princess Ark visits the Isle of Cestia, where they battle the night dragon and contact the Cestians. This is the issue where Lady Abovombe joins the crew of the Princess Ark. The Cestian "Bolas of Sunlight" are also described. 160: The Princess Ark breaks through the skyshield around Mystara and is attacked by Rakasta from the invisible moon Myoshima, who capture the ship and seize their Heldannic prisoner Rolf. After Rolf escapes, the Rakasta seize Lady Abovombe and hold her hostage pending Rolf's recapture by the crew of the Ark. Three Rakasta join the crew. This article also details the From ???@??? Sat Jun 01 18:18:29 1996 X-UIDL: 6a726ef3575db245472f055a7fb89f45 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA20865; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:22:49 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA08814 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 21:08:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:08:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199606010208.VAA08814@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #124 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Rakasta nations of Myoshima. 176: The Princess Ark arrives in Smokestone City in County Cimarron, an Old Western-style nation ruled by Earl John (later corrected to Duke John) of the Wain. This article describes various skills related to the use of the Cimarron six-shooter, an intricate repeating crossbow. 188: The Princess Ark's crew meet the Phanatons of Jibaru, at the western end of the Savage Coast. Meanwhile, Haldemar uses his magic to travel back to Alphatia. However, on the way he is diverted to the secret area underneath Glantri City, where he discovers the Nucleus of the Spheres (although all he is able to figure out is that it is an extremely powerful artifact of some kind). Haldemar finally reaches Alphatia and tells the Empress what he saw. This article concludes with a description of Phanaton PCs in "Creature Crucible" format. 200: This article describes the Arm of the Immortals and its (mostly aerial) inhabitants. This article includes a tantalizing reference to two nations of civilized half-Ogres from Tangor. ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] proficiencies I have taken it upon myself to try to integrate the list of Mystara OD&D skills compiled by Anias Pasi a few weeks ago into the categories of nonweapon proficiencies provided in the AD&D PHB, as well as in the new Player's Option Skills and Powers Book. The list below is a rough draft and I think is the right approach to streamlining the large number of skills; but I am open to suggestions/criticisms from anyone who is interested in Mystara with AD&D rules. General: Proficiency: cost rating ability agriculture 3 7 Ig/Kn gardening 3 6 Dx/Aim, Wi/In alertness 2 8 Wi/In animal handling 3 7 Wi/Wp herding 3 6 Wi/Wp falconry 4 5 Wi/Wp animal training 4 5 Wi/Wp, Ch/Le beekeeper 4 5 Wi/In, Ig/Kn boating 2 6 St/Mu, Ig/Re brewing 3 8 Ig/Kn vintner 3 7 Ig/Kn candlemaker 3 7 Ig/Kn, Wi/In canvasmaking 3 6 Ig/Kn carpentry 3 7 St/Sta, Ig/Kn bowyer/fletcher5 6 Ig/Kn, Dx/Aim (Warrior) cooper 3 7 Dx/Aim, Ig/Kn shipwright 5 5 Ig/Re, Wi/In cabinetmaker 4 6 Dx/Aim, Ig/Kn wainwright 4 6 Dx/Aim, Ig/Kn pipemaker 3 6 Dx/Aim, Wi/In cartography 4 5 Dx/Aim, Ig/Kn charcoal maker 3 7 Ig/Kn, Wi/In cobbling 3 7 Dx/Aim, Ig/Kn cooking 3 7 Ig/Re dancing 2 6 Dx/Ba, Ch/Ap driving 2 7 Dx/Ba, Wi/Wp charioteering 4 5 Dx/Ba, Wi/Wp (Warrior) engineering 4 5 Ig/Re, Wi/In architecture 3 6 Ig/Kn, Wi/In magical eng. 4 5 Ig/Re, Wi/In military 4 5 Ig/Kn, Wi/In etiquette 2 8 Ch/Ap, Wi/In fire-building 2 8 Wi/In, Ig/Re fishing 3 6 Wi/In, Ig/Kn florist 3 8 Wi/In furrier 3 6 Dx/Aim, Ig/Kn glassblowing 3 5 Dx/Aim haberdasher 3 7 Dx/Aim, Wi/In heraldry 2 8 Ig/Kn jeweller 3 6 Wi/In, Dx/Aim leather working 3 7 Ig/Kn, Dx/Aim saddle making 3 6 Ig/Kn lumberjack 4 6 St/Sta, Dx/Ba machinist 5 5 St/Sta, Ig/Kn mathematics 3 6 Ig/Re mental armor 3 N/A N/A metalworking 3 7 Dx/Aim, Ig/Kn blacksmithing 4 6 St/Mu, Ig/Kn armorer 5 5 Ig/Kn, St/Mu (Warrior) weaponsmithing 5 5 Ig/Kn, Dx/Aim (Warrior) gunsmithing 5 5 Ig/Kn, Dx/Aim (Warrior) redsmithing 5 6 Ig/Kn, St/Mu (Warrior, Savage Coast only) locksmithing 5 5 Ig/Kn, Dx/Aim silversmithing 4 6 Ig/Kn, Dx/Aim mining 5 5 Wi/In, St/Sta modern language 2 9 Ig/Kn monster lore 2 8 Ig/Kn music 2 7 Ch/Le instrument 2 6 Dx/Aim, Wi/In singing 2 5 Ch/Le composition 3 5 Ig/Re, Wi/In navigation 3 6 Ig/Kn, Wi/In negotiator 4 6 Ch/Le, Wi/In observation 2 7 Ig/Re, Wi/In oil making 3 6 Ig/Kn, Wi/In orienteering 3 7 Ig/Kn, Wi/In painting 2 7 Dx/Aim, Wi/In housepainter 3 6 Dx/Ba, Ig/Kn pilot (air) 5 5 Dx/Ba, Wi/In (Alphatians, Heldanners, Gnomes) poetry 2 6 Ig/Kn, Ch/Le pottery 3 7 Dx/Aim psionic contact 2 9 Wi/Wp riding (air) 4 5 Wi/Wp, Dx/Ba riding (land) 2 8 Wi/Wp, Dx/Ba ropemaking 3 7 Ig/Kn, Dx/Aim rope use 2 8 Dx/Aim, Wi/In saltmaking 3 7 Ig/Kn sculpting 2 5 Dx/Aim, Wi/In seamanship 3 8 Wi/In, Dx/Ba shellworking 2 6 Dx/Aim, Wi/In spinning 3 7 Ig/Kn, Dx/Aim stonemasonry 4 5 St/Sta, Wi/In swimming 2 9 St/Sta deep diving 2 5 Dx/Ba, Co/He tailoring 3 7 Dx/Aim, Ig/Re teaching 2 7 Ig/Kn, Ch/Le treeclimbing 3 6 Dx/Ba, Wi/In tobacconist 3 8 Ig/Kn, Ch/Ap weather sense 2 7 Wi/In weaving 3 6 Ig/Re, Dx/Aim basketweaving 3 6 Ig/Re, Dx/Aim netmaking 3 6 Ig/Re, Dx/Aim Priest: ancient history 3 6 Wi/In, Ig/Kn ancient language4 5 Ig/Kn astrology 3 5 Wi/In, Ig/Kn healing 4 5 Wi/In, Ch/Le veterinary 3 5 Wi/In herbalism 3 6 Ig/Kn, Wi/In law 4 5 Ig/Kn, Ch/Le local history 2 8 Ig/Kn, Ch/Ap meditation 3 7 Wi/Wp oratory 2 6 Ch/Le read/write 2 8 Ig/Kn religion 2 6 Wi/In ceremony 2 5 Wi/In, Ig/Kn spellcraft 3 7 Ig/Re storytelling 2 7 Ch/Le Rogue: acting 2 6 Ch/Ap, Wi/In ambush 3 6 Wi/In, Ig/Re ancient history 3 6 Wi/In, Ig/Kn appraising 2 8 Ig/Re, Wi/In blind-fighting 4 N/A Wi/In, Dx/Ba bootlicking 3 6 Ch/Le cryptography 3 6 Ig/Re, Wi/In disguise 4 5 Wi/In, Ch/Le finance 3 7 Wi/In, Ig/Kn forgery 3 5 Dx/Aim, Wi/Wp gambling 2 5 Wi/In, Ig/Kn gather info 2 6 Ig/Kn, Ch/Ap gem cutting 3 6 Dx/Aim haggling 2 8 Ch/Le juggling 3 7 Dx/Aim jumping 2 8 St/Mu, Dx/Ba law 4 5 Ig/Kn, Ch/Le local history 2 8 Ig/Kn, Ch/Ap looting 2 7 Ig/Re, Wi/In mimicry 3 5 Wi/In reading lips 3 7 Ig/Kn, Wi/In set snares 3 6 Dx/Aim, Wi/In storytelling 2 7 Ch/Le tightrope walk 3 5 Dx/Ba throwing 2 8 Dx/Aim, St/Mu trailing 3 6 Dx/Ba, Wi/In tumbling 3 7 Dx/Ba, St/Mu ventriloquism 4 5 Ig/Kn, Ch/Le Warrior: ambush 3 6 Ig/Re, Wi/In animal lore 3 7 Ig/Kn, Wi/In artillerist 2 7 Ch/Le, Ig/Re blind-fighting 4 N/A Wi/In, Dx/Ba camoflauge 3 6 Ig/Kn, Wi/In dirty fighting 2 7 Ig/Re drinking 2 7 St/Sta, Co/He dueling 2 7 Ig/Kn, Ch/Ap gambling 2 5 Wi/In, Ig/Kn endurance 2 3 N/A hunting 2 7 Wi/In intimidation 2 6 St/Mu, Ch/Ap leadership 2 6 Ch/Le military tactics4 6 Ig/Re, Ch/Le mimicry 3 5 Wi/In mountaineering 4 7 St/Sta, Wi/Wp quick draw 3 6 Dx/Aim running 2 5 St/Sta, Co/Fi set snares 4 8 Dx/Aim, Wi/In signaling 3 5 Ig/Re, Dx/Aim survival 3 6 Ig/Kn, Wi/Wp torture 4 5 St/Mu, Dx/Aim tracking 4 7 Wi/In Wizard: alchemy 5 5 Ig/Kn, Wi/In ancient history 3 6 Wi/In, Ig/Kn ancient language4 5 Ig/Kn astrology 3 5 Wi/In, Ig/Kn astronomy 2 7 Ig/Kn cryptography 3 6 Ig/Re, Wi/In fantasy physics 4 5 Ig/Re, Wi/In gem cutting 3 6 Dx/Aim herbalism 3 6 Ig/Kn, Wi/In hypnotism 3 5 Ig/Kn, Ch/Le meditation 3 7 Wi/Wp planar geography3 5 Ig/Kn read/write 2 8 Ig/Kn religion 2 6 Wi/In spellcraft 3 7 Ig/Re spellflash 3 5 Dx/Aim, Ig/Kn alternate magic3 6 Ig/Kn Psionicist: gem cutting 3 6 Dx/Aim harness subcon. 4 7 Wi/Wp meditation 3 7 Wi/Wp psychic focus 2 8 Wi/Wp rejuvenation 2 6 Wi/Wp read/write 2 8 Ig/Kn religion 2 6 Wi/In ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #124 ***************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 9 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 125 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sat, 01 Jun 96 11:33:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hyborea and Hyperborea - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > By now I'm moving and this get me VERY busy but when I will have some > time I'll try to send you some interseting things (strange places, monsters, > legends and superstition) about Auvergne and Hyperborea. But if you think this > kind of stuff doesn't have to appear on this list because it's not related > enough to Mystara just say it and I'll keep my hands off my keyword (except for > private mails to some of you, hello Matthew). > Bonsoir chers amis... > Pascal - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Pascal, Please post this information to the list, it seems on-topic to me. However, if I were to be out-voted then I would appreciate hearing from you via email ------------------------------ From: blankley.1@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Blankley) Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 16:35:48 GMT Subject: [Mystara] Dungeon Magazine List? I saw Daniel Boese's Dragon Magazine list and was wondering, does anyone have a Dungeon Magazine list with all the adventures placed in the Mystara setting? Randy Blankley ------------------------------ From: aellerd@ior.com Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 11:02:46 -0700 Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Digest Available? Hi all! Is it possible to receive this list in digest form, so that I don't receive quite so many messages? Please let me know. Thanks for your time... - --Tony ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jun 1 19:48:50 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 1 Jun 96 15:48 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA11873 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:16:37 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA11857 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:07:32 -0500 Received: from on-ramp.ior.com (root@on-ramp.ior.com [199.79.239.11]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14461 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:04:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Highlands.ior.com(really [204.212.119.3]) by on-ramp.ior.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Sat, 1 Jun 96 10:58:00 -0700 (PDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.4 built 17-mar-96) From: aellerd@ior.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960601180246.006a7998@on-ramp.ior.com> X-Sender: aellerd@on-ramp.ior.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 164 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 11:02:46 -0700 To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Digest Available? Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Hi all! Is it possible to receive this list in digest form, so that I don't receive quite so many messages? Please let me know. Thanks for your time... - --Tony ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 23:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hyborea and Hyperborea On Sat, 1 Jun 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > > By now I'm moving and this get me VERY busy but when I will have > some > > time I'll try to send you some interseting things (strange places, > monsters, > > legends and superstition) about Auvergne and Hyperborea. But if you think > this > > kind of stuff doesn't have to appear on this list because it's not related > > enough to Mystara just say it and I'll keep my hands off my keyword > (except for > > private mails to some of you, hello Matthew). > > Pascal, > Please post this information to the list, it seems on-topic to me. However, > if I were to be out-voted then I would appreciate hearing from you via email Not enough off-topic to be a problem. Post away... van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You just don't get it, do you? We have no choice; either we fight or we die. Because if we don't turn them back they will transform this planet into a living hell. Just like they did to Earth." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- General Benjamin Qae'Tahn, _Imperium_ ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Weak Immortals Which Immortals do you think have "weak" backgrounds, and perhaps should not be Immortals at all? >From the _Hollow World_ Boxed Set, it seemed to me that Asterius might be a candidate. He didn't sound like he did anything particularly spectacular to come into his sphere of influence (Trade and Commerce). In fact, I thought he'd make a better "aspect" of Koryis. Something the priests focussed on in the past, and blew up into a separate religion. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 18:57:20 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Fwd: RE: Averoigne - Chaosium Digest V14.11 - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- I thought some people might be interested in this, for its reference to CAS in print, Averoigne and Hyperborea. The books would be available from Arkham House. Shelby Michlin - ------- FORWARD ------- > Date: Monday, 03-Jun-96 01:32 AM > > From: Shannon Appel \ Internet: (appel@erzo.org) > To: chaos-digest@erzo.ORG \ Internet: (chaos-digest@erzo.org) > > Subject: Chaosium Digest V14.11 > > Chaosium Digest Volume 14, Number 11 > Date: Sunday, June 2, 1996 > Number: 1 of 1 > -------------------- > > From: appel@erzo.org (Shannon Appel) > Subject: New Cthulhu Rising Adventures > System: Mythos > >If you'd like to get a better feel for the adventures, you may want to > read the stories which helped to generate the ideas. THE HYPERBOREAN AGE comes > from Clark Ashton Smith's "The Seven Gaeses", currently available in _A > Rendezvous in Averoigne_ and _Tales of the Lovecraft Mythos_. > -------------------- > > The Chaosium Digest is an unofficial electronic 'zine about Chaosium's Games. > In no way should it be considered representative of the views or beliefs of > Chaosium Inc. To submit an article, subscribe or unsubscribe, mail to: > appel@erzo.org. The old digests are archived on ftp.csua.berkeley.edu in the > directory /pub/chaosium, and may be retrieved via FTP. > - ------- FORWARD, End of original message ------- ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:09:48 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weak Immortals > Which Immortals do you think have "weak" backgrounds, and perhaps should > not be Immortals at all? > > From the _Hollow World_ Boxed Set, it seemed to me that Asterius might be > a candidate. He didn't sound like he did anything particularly > spectacular to come into his sphere of influence (Trade and > Commerce). > > In fact, I thought he'd make a better "aspect" of Koryis. Something the > priests focussed on in the past, and blew up into a separate religion. I'm dealing with this in my campaign. Many of the "weak" gods were sponsored because their patron's needed loyal divine-level servants (titans and angels just don't cut it all the time). By the end of my campaign, most of the gods are killed (Wrath of the Immortals with a proper fatality rate), others are replaced (mainly by the Elemasters), and the rest keep their positions or are absorbed into other Immortals (the Koryis-Asterius possibility you mentioned - even through Koryis is scheduled to die [in war the first to die are those who refuse to take sides and fight] and Asterius is going to be replaced). > Simon > :) HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Weak Immortals > > I'm dealing with this in my campaign. Many of the "weak" gods > were sponsored because their patron's needed loyal divine-level > servants (titans and angels just don't cut it all the time). By the Interesting angle, but what are some of the repercussions? Also, do you take the D&D view of how mortals become Immortals? That is, via trial and testimony (some of which are grossly silly but...). Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Alex Jazayeri Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 10:04:11 +0100 Subject: [Mystara] Cynnabril Hello everybody. Just wanted to pose a quick question. Does anybody out there know the secret of cynnabril, what it does to you, and how to get it. Also, what's so great about Red Steel (not the supplement, the other stuff)? The Dragons mentioning them were sold looong before I joined the hobby, and the lack of knowledge has had me scratching at a n itch I cannot reach..... Alex ------------------------------ From: toron@tripnet.se (Daniel Niklasson) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:47:02 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cynnabril >Hello everybody. >Just wanted to pose a quick question. Does anybody out there know the= secret >of cynnabril, what it does to you, and how to get it. Also, what's so great >about Red Steel (not the supplement, the other stuff)? The Dragons >mentioning them were sold looong before I joined the hobby, and the lack of >knowledge has had me scratching at a n itch I cannot reach..... > >Alex > > Cinnabryl protects its wearer from the detrimental effects of the Red Curse. After being worn by a living being for a while, however, Cinabryl=B4s magic becomes deplented; it no longer protects from the curse. The metal=B4s= weight decreases and turns into Red Steel. Cinnabryl also has effects harmful to those not suffering from the Red Curse. This keeps most people from taking Cinnabryl away from the Savage Coast. Cinnabryl is found in deposits in many places along the Savage Coast, and only in that region. The deposits consist of clusters of rounded nuggets of pure Cinnabryl. These nuggets are generally found in a reddish clay. Cinnabryl is self-prepetuating while in deposits of red clay. That is, the metal produces more nuggets of itself while in that material.(This is the work of magic by the Nithians.) One ounce of Cinnabryll protect its wearer for one week. A Cinnabryl amulet (eight ounces) cost=B4s 12 gp. Red Steel: this metal is depleted Cinnabryl. It is a lightweight, dull red metal. Weapons of Red Steel can strike beings normally hit only by weapons of at least a +1 enchantment, as well as those creatures normally hit only by Silver or cold Iron. However, Red Steel weapons grant no bonuses to attack and damage rolls unless enchanted for that purpose. Weapons of Red Steel costs 1000% of the normal price for the same wapon of Iron but only weights 50%. More info will be found in the RED STEEL campaign expansion. /Daniel Niklasson toron@tripnet.se=20 ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] more NPC's for Karameikos!!! Lord Calentor Alducam, Baron Redburgh Male High Elf Noble Thief/Alchemist level 9/8 Str 8 Dex 13 (Aim 11, Balance 16) Con 7 Int 15 (Reason 18, Knowledge 13) Wis 9 Cha 14 (Leadership 16, Appearance 12) 244,500 xp, age 175, Alignment Chaotic Evil hp 22 AC 2 (with rapier) Move 13 Thaco 16 with Rapier +2: Thaco 11, speed VF, dmg d6/d8+4, #AT 2 90' infravision, 90% resistance to sleep & charm, +1 to hit with all swords can backstab for x4 dmg, bribe 75%, find/remove traps 30%, open locks 35%, read languages 90%, speak thieves' cant, move silently 80%, detect noise 30% research alchemy spells as one level lower, bonus spells per day, learning bonus & penalty for alchemy/non-alchemy traits: artistic talent, impersonation ability, moderate fear of heights speaks Thyatin, Elvish, Gnomish, and Goblin all fluently proficiencies: etiquette 8, heraldry (KW only) 8, riding 11, dancing 9, ancient history 6, read/write (all but Goblin) 8, disguise 8, ventriloquism 8, appraising 13, spellcraft 12, cooking 12, cryptography 11, streetwise 11, rapier (choice, specialized), wheellock belt pistol, dagger specialized in one-weapon style (-1 to AC) has Rapier +2 which casts Charm Person once a day, Elven Chainmail +1, Cloak of Elvenkind, potions of treasure finding (1), love (1), delusion (seems to be persuasiveness) (3), invisibility (2), healing (4), orc control (1), extra-healing (1), longevity (1), amulet of protection from scrying, Bullet +3 of Undead Slaying, scroll of Protection from Petrification Spellbook: (5/4/4/3 per day) Level 1: sleep, read magic, detect magic, cantrip, affect normal fires, metamorphose liquids, protection from evil, grease, hold portal, identify, floating disc, wall of fog Level 2: pyrotechnics, stinking cloud, glitterdust, detect evil, knock, darkness 15' radius, levitate Level 3: protection from evil 10' radius, haste, lightning bolt, dispel magic, hold person, tongues Level 4: fire trap, wizard eye, dimension door, polymorph self, fire charm Calentor is the older brother of the famed Elven adventurer and diplomat Elgalan Alducam. Both brothers were born into a rich Callarii/Ierendi noble family and have the education both of urban citizens of the world and of members of the Callarii clan. Calentor, unlike his brother, is twisted and power hungry - whereas Elgalan's ambition has always been directed towards legal and honorable pursuits, Calentor (who is also known as "Mr. Kale", or as "Greenwood", the Thyatin translation of his name) is a schemer. In his early days he adventured with his brother, and often joined parties operating out of Threshold in the Cruth mountains. On one such expedition he met Prince Gordon Trefban and his entourage, but he never became friends with them - though he does claim his well-placed distraction-spells helped save Gordon from a Red Dragon's breath. Of the two brothers, it was Elgalan who succeeded in becoming more influential in the Trefban circle; Calentor did however become a landless knight through the influence of Shellir Markelian, one of Gordon's inner circle. It was at this point that he also became involved in several business ventures connected with the Specularum underworld, including ownership of several brothels and connections to the Radu family. During the Thyatin invasion of Karameikos 20 years ago, Calentor was commissioned by Markelian to obtain gunpowder from the Andaregi islands in the Sea of Storms between Ostland and the Isle of Dawn. Calentor was gradually slipping further and further towards evil alignment all this time. He had a part in the formation of the Andaregi Consortium which monopolizes gunpowder trade east of the Serpent Peninsula and which placed Marcus Margud and then Sho Sateka on the throne of Ierendi. Calentor also has ties to the Thugs' Guild in Glantri through Meister Jakar Daron of the Corporation of Alchemists, who has tutored him in magic from time to time. Several years back, Calentor acquired an estate on the edge of the Callarii lands from Duke Stefan with the help of Anton Radu; he was recently made Baron Redburgh. At present, Calentor is on the Isle of Dawn in Trikelios. He is part of an elaborate plot to gain control of the Zz'onga trade from Alphatia and Bellissaria, and is also involved in nefarious shadowy ways in the plot to restore Prince Jarakesh Trefban (Gordon's son) to the Mehirgudi throne. He is also being pursued (he does not know it) by Sir Mikhail Gorevitch-Woszlany, who recently ransacked Redburgh House back in Karameikos, believing Calentor has a poweful magical item stolen from him in Glantri. This magic item, a book designed to be read only by Prince Jarakesh, allows the user to predict the future results of actions; Prince Morphail (Mikhail's brother) believes he can decipher it and use it in the service of entropy. However, Calentor does not have it; he was duped into giving it up by the otherworldly sage Isomer of Benzene, who guided it into the hands of two hapless adventurers named Lorelei and Oswego, who have taken it back to Glantri, where it has been captured by Angus McGregor, sworn enemy of the Gorevitch-Woszlany's, who has not yet managed to tap its power. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 10:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Official Mystara Mailing List Web Page... Mystarans, Due to a serious caseof unemployment I have found myself with a wee bit of free time on my hands and I thought I would use it to expand upon my web page. Currently the only things it has on it pertaining to Mystara is the index of files and the FAQ. Becasue I don't feel like worrying about copyright hassles I won't be putting any actual Mystara material on it. What I am looking to do is add stuff to help Mystaran GM's find other Mystara stuff. Such as links to other pages, complete listings of products and Dragon articles, possibly reviews (if anyone is interested in submitting any), and other such things. Something else I have been thinking of is adding a directory of list members (inspired by the excellent directory of Planescape members being worked up by one of that list's members). This directory would have each person's name, address and web page, plus any short comments they wished to add. Is anyone interested in such a thing? It woul rely on people sending me such info, and would be fully voluntary. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Another slave and a victim of fate, another lesson in hate." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Burning Inside ------------------------------ From: David Keyser Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 12:13:10 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Mystara index for Dungeon and Polyhedron magazines Here is a list that I am 99% sure is complete for Mystara adventures in Dungeon magazine. A ? next to anything means I am using memory, and may be off. These adventures are explicitly set in Mystara(D&D Known World). Issue Levels Setting Commentary 6 4-10 Savage Coast Not set in modern day Savage Coast, but works well as a continuation of module X9 7 4-10 Savage Coast Part 2 of adventure from Dungeon #6 9 3 Ylaruam Solo adventure(no DM) for one elf 9 3-5? Mule Beach Can be set with any coastal town 12 2-4 north Glantri 13 8-12 Specularum Very good city adventure 20 8-12 Broken Lands 21 15-18 Norworld 22 1-3 Broken Lands Humanoid PCs(from GAZ10) 23 2-4 Soderfjord 24 1-3 Karameikos Good wizard tower and well done(thanks Ann!) 25 4-7 Karameikos 26 6-8 Darokin Good use of bhuts 27 10-14 Karameikos 28 4-6 Broken Lands Small encounter meant to be included with module HWA1, can still be used with that or stand alone 39 1 Glantri 42 3-5 Karameikos Describes an outlaw town near Threshold 44 12+ Glantri Set after 1010AC 48 1-3 Five Shires 57 1 Karameikos AD&D 58 3-5 Specularum AD&D, not explicitly Mystara, but suggestions are given in order to place it in Mystara 58 any Glantri City AD&D, again not explicitly set in Mystara 59 3-5 Karameikos AD&D These adventures are D&D, and can easily be set in Mystara, but were not directly placed there or had background information that did not mesh with any part of Mystara that has been detailed Issue Levels Potential Set. Commentary 1 1-3 anywhere 5 elves in a tree home, with a nearby pool, get attacked by striges, that is the adventure 2 1-3 ? island abandoned long ago after disaster 5 1-3 Karameikos/Five Shires 14 3-6 ? First appearance of Greater Wererats(see PC4) 15 6-9 Karameikos 28? 1 any frontier I think this is Dungeon #28, might be 39 or 42 34 1-3 Minrothad Good 46 1-3 Darokin the setting reappeared in a different adventure in Dungeon #56 50 5-8 Ylaruam Good 51 2-3 Darokin 53 4-6? Karameikos There was one D&D adventure that appeared in Dungeon #41, with the Thunder Rift setting. Now, I have a question for this group, does anyone know of any issues of Polyhedron that featured Mystara info or adventures? I have Polyhedron #100, which features a mind flayer reviewing scattered documents from the D&D Known World, before planning to visit the world. I know in Dragon #160 or 161, it was mentioned that there was a plan to publish the names of the Halfling clans from the Five Shires in Polyhedron, but I can't find that in any index of Polyhedron magazines. I also believe that there was an article and economics and population in Mystara, and one index on the web indicated that was Polyhedron #96, but I have that issue, and that article is not there. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 17:24:24 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Shaman supplement vs Ethengar? I was just going through the Shaman supplement today, and a couple thoughts struck me.. Is the spirit-world of the Ethengars connected to the Dreamlands (the Fairy kingdoms) in Alfheim? Are the Fairy and spirits related somehow? The origins the fairy give for themselves in PC1 is.. a little hard to swallow, even if it was taken from the Christian myth for the origins of the Fey (ie, in the original heavenly war, the angels who didn't take sides became fairies). Would Traladaran "gypsy" mystics actually be the mediums described in Shaman? Is there any chance that the force that creates spirits, namely the thoughts and feelings of mortals, is the same force that creates Immortals? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 17:16:13 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Official Mystara Mailing List Web Page... > Becasue I don't feel like worrying about copyright hassles I won't be > putting any actual Mystara material on it. What I am looking to do is add > stuff to help Mystaran GM's find other Mystara stuff. Such as links to > other pages, complete listings of products and Dragon articles, possibly > reviews (if anyone is interested in submitting any), and other such > things. Well, here's my list of Mystara pages and FTP sites; if anybody knows any more, please post them.. :) - --Individuals' Mystara sites http://moray.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/mystara/index.html http://www.miniworld.com/adnd/mystarra/index.shtml http://www.miniworld.com/adnd/mystarra/toowin/index.shtml http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh/mystsite.html http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/diary - --Official TSR sites: - -1996 Savage Coast product schedule http://members.aol.com/tsrinc/1996/1996od.html - -Mystara FTP site ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara - --Mystara Mailing list sites - -Index http://www.io.com/~oryon/mindex.htm - -Digests ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/mailing-lists/mystara-digest - -Files ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/mailing-lists/mystara-l - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #125 ***************************** mystara-digest Monday, 10 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 126 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: strawberryJAMM Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 10:24 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Official Mystara Mailing List Web Page... Leroy: At 10:19 06/09/96 -0700, you wrote: >Mystarans, > Due to a serious caseof unemployment I have found myself with a wee >bit of free time on my hands and I thought I would use it to expand upon >my web page. Currently the only things it has on it pertaining to Mystara >is the index of files and the FAQ. Too bad about the unemployment, but at least you've got something to keep your mind occupied :-) >[...] > Something else I have been thinking of is adding a directory of list >members (inspired by the excellent directory of Planescape members being >worked up by one of that list's members). This directory would have each >person's name, address and web page, plus any short comments they wished >to add. > Is anyone interested in such a thing? It woul rely on people sending >me such info, and would be fully voluntary. Sounds like a great idea! I'd be up for it. Do you plan to indicated "Handles" too (if the person uses one)? - -=< strawberryJAMM >=--- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shaman supplement vs Ethengar? On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > I was just going through the Shaman supplement today, and a couple > thoughts struck me.. > > Is the spirit-world of the Ethengars connected to the Dreamlands (the > Fairy kingdoms) in Alfheim? Are the Fairy and spirits related somehow? > The origins the fairy give for themselves in PC1 is.. a little hard to > swallow, even if it was taken from the Christian myth for the origins of > the Fey (ie, in the original heavenly war, the angels who didn't take > sides became fairies). > > Would Traladaran "gypsy" mystics actually be the mediums described in > Shaman? > > Is there any chance that the force that creates spirits, namely the > thoughts and feelings of mortals, is the same force that creates > Immortals? > > -- > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca > aka the Mystara-fan > VERY interesting questions all ... not sure that I can answer any of them in any consistent way, but I do remember that somewhere once upon a time I derived the idea that Immortals sustain their power basically through the number of people who believe in them. One could modify this and also say it depends on the level of emotional output of those people - - which would explain why Immortals are more likely to manifest themselves in situations where their worshippers are excited or upset. As for fairies and spirits, it would make a lot of sense if they were connected - also the Dimension of Nightmares (where Jherek Virayana of Glantri has a secret tower, and where the malferas of X5 originate) should be related, especially since Jherek is of Ethengar descent. As for the angel theory, why wouldn't fairies/spirits be like very low-level immortal spirits, similar to the angels of Judeo-Christian theology (which might also appear in the Church of Thyatis, for instance). The demons/fiends mentioned in several supplements - which originally included Ranivorus/Yeenoghu and Alphaks - might fall into the evil part of this category. There are other examples of mixing and matching similar parts of widely different belief systems in other areas of Mystara - for instance the Hollow World scenario (I forget if it's in the boxed set or in the Nightwail series) in which the Roman/Celtic god Faunus appears in his Aztec (!) incarnation to send the PC's off (with a suspiciously peyote-esque psychedelic brew) to visit the Queen of the Fairies. In a world like Mystara, why even try to keep traditions separate? If it's a physical hop skip and jump from Arabia to Scandinavia to Mongolia to Venice (so to speak) then shouldn't the religions bases on those cultures also be more closely related and intertwined? Remember that the Christian story about fairies/angels was originally an attempt to integrate Pagan Celtic myths into official Catholic theology. anyway, those are my thoughts - don't know if there's one "best" way to go about putting them into practice - any suggestions? m@2 ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Official Mystara Mailing List Web Page... On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, strawberryJAMM wrote: > At 10:19 06/09/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Mystarans, > > Due to a serious caseof unemployment I have found myself with a wee > >bit of free time on my hands and I thought I would use it to expand upon > >my web page. Currently the only things it has on it pertaining to Mystara > >is the index of files and the FAQ. > > Too bad about the unemployment, but at least you've got something to > keep your mind occupied :-) Hehe, yeah. Unfortunately that includes bills going unpaid. But 'tis a small price to pay in dedication to Mystara... :) > > Something else I have been thinking of is adding a directory of list > >members (inspired by the excellent directory of Planescape members being > >worked up by one of that list's members). This directory would have each > >person's name, address and web page, plus any short comments they wished > >to add. > > Is anyone interested in such a thing? It woul rely on people sending > >me such info, and would be fully voluntary. > > Sounds like a great idea! I'd be up for it. Do you plan to indicated > "Handles" too (if the person uses one)? Certainly. Actually, if all people wanted to submit was a handle, that would be fine. Later today I will try to get an offical announcement churned out asking for this. I have recieved a few already, which is fine. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 23:47:39 +0200 Subject: [none] I'm currently working with Herve Musseau on new Mystara stuff and we would like to know your opinion on the following questions: * When does "Mark of Amber" take place ? * When will the new Nucleus of the Spheres in City of the Stars be completed ? * What will Rafiel do with it ? Thanks. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ************** ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 19:42:45 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber & Radiance > I'm currently working with Herve Musseau on new Mystara stuff and we would > like to know your opinion on the following questions: > > * When does "Mark of Amber" take place ? Well.. according to Joshuan Gallidox, Etienne is still absent as of Nuwmont, 1014; so any time after that. > * When will the new Nucleus of the Spheres in City of the Stars be > completed ? We know that the Chamber of the Spheres was under construction in 1000 AC.. and was never mentioned in later supplements. I'd have to say: "Whenever the DM wants it to be completed.". :) You know, that makes me think.. there were several mentionings that when the Alphatian High Council teleported over Glantri City, the Nucleus of the Spheres was destroyed.. is it possible that it actually did blow up, and, coincidentally, Rafiel's reactor went on-line at just that time? And if so, here's a really off-the-wall idea.. over the ages, the Nucleus tied itself into Mystara's magic so much that when it was destroyed, so was Mystara's magic.. and it was Rafiel's reactor starting up a week later that restored it? :) > * What will Rafiel do with it ? Other than simply be reassured that his consciousness is stable, secure, and reliable? Hm.. my first guess would be that it would radiate a similar 'magical' energy to the Radiance, but the Nucleus required an Old One's intervention to do such. Other than as a simple (heh) power source, I'm not entirely sure.. Once he knows that his mind is intact, Rafiel might decide to re-introduce all the wonders of Blackmoor to the Shadow Elves... which would almost certainly start "Wrath of the Immortals II"... hm.. now here's something to work with for the post-1014 Mystara.. ;) As a techno-magical device, it is inherantly unstable; Can you say "Broken Lands mark 2"? Oh, and while we're on the subject, here's a line from the gazetteer that you might be interested in... :) "As Rafiel's confused consciousness had striven for help, and cast out desperate signals in the form of the Refuge of Stone AND OTHER (STILL LOST) MESSAGES," Any ideas on what these other messages might be, and what will happen when the next one is found? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ From: tbandy@cyberportal.net Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Variant Combat system (OD&D weapon mastery origin) I have been promising my players this write up for awhile, and since I have a couple requests from the ADND-List for it following my brief allusion to "House Rules" in my campaigns - well, it's time I put these ideas and rules into electronic format at least. I'm also sending a copy to the Mystara List as it includes my adaptation of the OD&D Weapons Mastery rules. Though the Weapon Mastery rules may be hard to recognized except as a basis from which I developed my own adaptations. The first important piece of information for any reader is that my game is entirely skills-based. I have alluded to this in many of my posts, but as I do not bombard the list regularly (generally in lurker mode) some may not be aware of that particular fact. This entire system is adaptable, even to ADND. It is not pure, as I have had 18 years of gaming to develop this particular set of house rules. (I realize "years of experience" is not necessarily equivalent to being good or well thought out, however this system is extensively play-tested and works very well for my games.) A few general notes about combat. I use 10-second melee rounds, and add the roll of 1d10 to a character's or monster's Dexterity to determine Initiative. Highest Initiative gets first action in a melee round. Typical Initiative adjustments include a -5 for drawing weapons, -7 for switching weapons, a negative modifier equal to the mana-point value of a spell (unless spell description gives a different modifier), +10 for Haste spell or Potion of Speed, +2 for light-weight garments, -3 for two-handed weapons, and so forth. There are occasionally situational modifiers as well. These require adjudication at the moment of the game combat. Hit points for characters in my games are high but relatively static. Because I do not use level progressions, I determine character hit point by taking the character's Constitution score and adding a base modifier based on race. This racial modifier is subjective on my part based on mass of creature and the race's innate toughness. Examples: Humans = 15, Elves = 14, Dwarves = 17, Hin (halflings) = 13, Minotaurs = 19, Ogres = 20, Rock Trolls = 22, Kobolds = 10. Bonus hit points may be added to this base score if the character comes from a background that I interpret warrants the bonus; such as a dedicated warrior (knight, mercenary soldier) gets a +5 bonus, a blacksmith would get a +1 or +2 bonus depending on how the character had been actively practicing this craft. I use the -10 hp "mercy rule" in my campaigns, except the negative hp is equal to the characters Constitution score before they are declared dead! (I instituted the mercy rule because of my tendency to occasionally deal massive damage to some of the characters.) Hit points can rise slightly through near-death experiences. A character that gets reduced to negative hit points has a slight chance of being a little harder to kill. I judge this extremely subjectively, and when I rule in favor of bonus hit points, the player gets to 1d3 for the character's bonus. I use a two-fold armor system. The character gets an Armor Rating number based on what type of armor is worn (if any). The Armor Rating (AR) is the damage the armor absorbs from any melee damage suffered. However, any successful hit will always inflict a minimum of 1 point of damage to the character regardless of AR. Thus, even ridiculous AR characters can eventually be beaten into submission. The second measure for the character is Armor Class (AC). Armor Class is the combination of factors that make the character harder to hit with a weapons: Dexterity adjustment, shield bonus, magical adjustments, Weapon Mastery defensive adjustments, wearing leather armor or lighter protection while using a weapon the character is proficient with (from Player's Option series), plus situational modifiers (if any). The AC is then subtracted from the attacker's to hit score to determine what will actually make contact with the defending character. I use a 20-sider for combat rolls where a 1 always hits and a 20 always misses (more about this shortly). As I stated earlier, my system is skill-based. Therefore, a character does not automatically know how to successfully wield any weapons. He or she has had enough exposure to weapons in general not to hurt themselves while handling one. When the character is created, if they choose to be proficient with one or more weapons, they will be. But that proficiency will be very minimal. They will have received basic training and not much more. This translates a little differently once you start speaking in game terms. All skills and spells in my system are Ranked numerically with 0 representing no real ability and 30+ representing Mastery and Grandmastery with the skill/spell in question. (Those who read my post about my spell system from yesterday will note a recurring theme.) There are six groupings that describe the various numerical spreads within this ranking system: unskilled (0), Basic (1-5), Skilled (6-15), Expert (16-24), Master (25- 34), Grandmaster (35+). Each weapon that a player chooses for his character are treated as separate skills. It is possible for the character to have a broad or narrow base skill in a weapon type (all bladed weapons, short bladed weapons, polearms, axes, short spears, etc.), but skill improvements will occur for individual weapons as opposed to the entire selection range. In a few cases, this may break down to separate categories for weapons that can be used in more than one style: the bastard sword can be used one- or two-handed, short spears can be thrown or used in melee. Regardless of weapon choice, a character has a basic 8 or under on 1d20 to hit an opponent (40% chance). If the character has a Dexterity adjustment (Aim for those using the Player's Option subabilities), this is added to the base to hit. The GM needs to note what an opponent's AC is to determine the final range in which a character will be able to score a successful hit. As the character gains experience with his weapon or weapons of choice, he improves in ranking, improving his base to hit number, damage potentially caused, AC (depending upon weapon), and gaining special abilities with that particular weapon (these abilities vary according to the weapon). The following chart illustrates the advancement: CATEGORY TO-HIT BASE NUMBER DAMAGE ADJUSTMENT Unskilled 8 1/2 damage Basic 8 Normal damage Skilled 9 +1 point of damage Expert 10 Drop one dice size and use one more die +1 point Master 11 Increase one die size +2 points Grandmaster 12 Use two more dice in determining damage NOTES: Base damage for a short sword in my campaigns is 1d6+1. So, as an example of how much damage a character could potentially do with a short sword at the various category levels, read on. Unskilled with the short sword, the character would half the roll of dice rounded up; at basic skill, the character does the normal 1d6+1; skilled, 1d6+2; expert, 2d4+2; Master, 2d6+3; and Grandmaster, 4d6+3. Grandmasters can be very nasty opponents, regardless of weapon they use. Fortunately, there are not a great many weapons grandmasters in the world. The special abilities gained and AC improvements based on category are dependent on the weapon used. those who have access to the OD&D Rules Cyclopedia can find the appropriate information in Chapter 5: Other Character Abilities, pages 78-79. Otherwise, I would advise making up these abilities, as posting them to the list would be copyright infringement (no flames please; I have other things to do with my time besides receiving/answering TSR's warnings about this subject). By now, I'm sure a few of you are wondering how ones Skill Rank improves in order to have a chance to reach these higher categories of weapon mastery. Practice, training, and practical experience. Use of a weapon gains one experience with it. Over time the character will improve. Training can help to accelerate the process slightly, but training is expensive and not guaranteed to teach you anything (think about it; not _every_ training or schooling course you've taken has ended up actually teaching you something). My judgment of when a character improves is subjective, with each new Skill Rank being harder to obtain then the previous (of course!). CRITICAL HITS AND FUMBLES First important notes: a character unskilled with a weapon cannot score a critical hit and Grandmasters never fumble - they may miss, but they never fumble! That out of the way, I do use both concepts in my game, though simplified compared to the charts in the Player's Options books. Critical hits occur on a natural roll of 1, regardless of Skill Rank (except for the unskilled as mentioned in the previous paragraph). The opponent gets a saving throw (10 or less on 1d20; 50% chance of avoiding your most awesome blow). If the opponent fails his/her/its saving throw, the player gets to roll 1d6 to determine a critical damage multiplier. 1-3 means to double damage rolled; 4-5 means to triple damage rolled, and a 6 means to quadruple the damage rolled. Fumbles have a different chance of occurring, dependent upon the character's skill category with his/her weapon. Unskilled characters fumble on a natural 16-20; Basic and Skilled fumble on a natural 19-20; Experts and Masters fumble on a natural 20; and Grandmasters never fumble. At this point I have the player roll percentile (1d100) dice. A result of 01-10 means a self-inflicted injury - the lower the percentile result, the more damage caused. On a result of 91-00, I have the player roll an additional attack against an ally nearby, or an enemy other than the intended opponent; if neither is reasonably possible, the character missed stylishly. Any result in between (11-90), I make up based on circumstance. With fumbles and criticals, I recommend that the GM be very creative. Not all fumbles are entirely bad, not all criticals are perfect attacks ("Watch where you're swinging that bloody axe, Boris! You almost took off my arm as you cleaved that goblin in two!"). With criticals, I compare the damage done with the total hit points of the opponent. Regardless of how I rule the resulting hit, if the opponent took more than one-third of its total hit points from a single blow, it must roll a standard saving throw to avoid being stunned. Also, for each 10 points of damage caused on a critical hit, the opponent is knocked back one foot (unless its two sizes larger than the attacker, in which case it must make a morale check). Be creative! Critical hits are usually caused by the opponent's miscue, not the character's great skill, though an occasional decapitation does serve to stir the blood of most adventurers. Fumbling can become a comic high point of a session or campaign. My players recall with glee more of the fumbles their characters have committed than the critical hits inflicted. Again, I implore you to be creative. In the huge mid-range on the percentile dice is the chance to put a sense of yourself in the melee. Why and how did the character miss? Distracted, itchy trigger finger on crossbow, bow string snapped, mosquito buzzing in ear, forget where he was for a moment, and so forth. I recently had two characters fumble in the same melee round. Just prior to this occurrence, one of their companions critically hit an orc, killing the orc. The killing of the orc was the character's first successful hit in combat in six or seven sessions. I ruled the two fumbles were because of the other characters' absolute amazement that their companion could not only hit an opponent, but could actually kill an opponent. This creativity can be extended to the other ranges of the fumble "chart" as well. For example, a few months ago, one of the elves in a group was trying to assist the group's amazon who was wrestling with an errant crocodile. The elf fumbled and the player rolled a 99 on the percentile dice. Possibly hit friend. Another attack was rolled which resulted in a critical hit. The attack was with a broad sword and resulted in a grand total of 36 points of damage (critical hit tripled damage result). I ruled that the elf managed to kill the crocodile by thrusting her sword through the amazon. (This example has a lot of dice rolling, but the end result was worth it!) On the other end of the "chart", a character charges toward a melee between a couple of companions and an auroch (prehistoric breed of cattle found in Europe as recently as 3000 years ago). He runs up a small knoll and dives toward the back of the auroch - fumbles his attack. Resulting percentile roll was 01. I ruled the auroch spotted him and turned to meet this new adversary. The character impaled himself on one of the auroch's horns for critical damage. Hope this answers some of the questions I've been asked by my players From ???@??? Wed Jun 12 20:17:47 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA11356; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:41:09 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA12503 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:13:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:13:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199606110213.VAA12503@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #126 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 02edd1288961629b7438a849ac699a7c and via e-mail. Traki Tracy A. Bandy tbandy@cyberportal.net ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue Jun 11 01:29:33 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Mon, 10 Jun 96 21:29 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA11628 for mystara-l-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 19:21:05 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA11560 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 19:09:35 -0500 Received: from cyberport.cyberportal.net (root@cyberport.cyberportal.net [204.97.234.2]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA10433 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 19:07:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 204.97.234.100 (clar2-async-10.cyberportal.net [204.97.234.100]) by cyberport.cyberportal.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26443; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:06:16 -0400 (EDT) From: tbandy@cyberportal.net Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606110006.UAA26443@cyberport.cyberportal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 13132 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Mystara] Variant Combat system (OD&D weapon mastery origin) To: druannp@chaph.usc.edu, ADND-L@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU, mystara-l@io.com, Rosseroo@aol.com, markus@shore.net, millard@vermontel.com, jewels@world.std.com, typo@netcom.com, mstrumpf@ix.netcom.com, peterm@gdt1.com, ccaperna@IDEA.uml.edu, remande@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199605271731.KAA24746@chaph.usc.edu> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I have been promising my players this write up for awhile, and since I have a couple requests from the ADND-List for it following my brief allusion to "House Rules" in my campaigns - well, it's time I put these ideas and rules into electronic format at least. I'm also sending a copy to the Mystara List as it includes my adaptation of the OD&D Weapons Mastery rules. Though the Weapon Mastery rules may be hard to recognized except as a basis from which I developed my own adaptations. The first important piece of information for any reader is that my game is entirely skills-based. I have alluded to this in many of my posts, but as I do not bombard the list regularly (generally in lurker mode) some may not be aware of that particular fact. This entire system is adaptable, even to ADND. It is not pure, as I have had 18 years of gaming to develop this particular set of house rules. (I realize "years of experience" is not necessarily equivalent to being good or well thought out, however this system is extensively play-tested and works very well for my games.) A few general notes about combat. I use 10-second melee rounds, and add the roll of 1d10 to a character's or monster's Dexterity to determine Initiative. Highest Initiative gets first action in a melee round. Typical Initiative adjustments include a -5 for drawing weapons, -7 for switching weapons, a negative modifier equal to the mana-point value of a spell (unless spell description gives a different modifier), +10 for Haste spell or Potion of Speed, +2 for light-weight garments, -3 for two-handed weapons, and so forth. There are occasionally situational modifiers as well. These require adjudication at the moment of the game combat. Hit points for characters in my games are high but relatively static. Because I do not use level progressions, I determine character hit point by taking the character's Constitution score and adding a base modifier based on race. This racial modifier is subjective on my part based on mass of creature and the race's innate toughness. Examples: Humans = 15, Elves = 14, Dwarves = 17, Hin (halflings) = 13, Minotaurs = 19, Ogres = 20, Rock Trolls = 22, Kobolds = 10. Bonus hit points may be added to this base score if the character comes from a background that I interpret warrants the bonus; such as a dedicated warrior (knight, mercenary soldier) gets a +5 bonus, a blacksmith would get a +1 or +2 bonus depending on how the character had been actively practicing this craft. I use the -10 hp "mercy rule" in my campaigns, except the negative hp is equal to the characters Constitution score before they are declared dead! (I instituted the mercy rule because of my tendency to occasionally deal massive damage to some of the characters.) Hit points can rise slightly through near-death experiences. A character that gets reduced to negative hit points has a slight chance of being a little harder to kill. I judge this extremely subjectively, and when I rule in favor of bonus hit points, the player gets to 1d3 for the character's bonus. I use a two-fold armor system. The character gets an Armor Rating number based on what type of armor is worn (if any). The Armor Rating (AR) is the damage the armor absorbs from any melee damage suffered. However, any successful hit will always inflict a minimum of 1 point of damage to the character regardless of AR. Thus, even ridiculous AR characters can eventually be beaten into submission. The second measure for the character is Armor Class (AC). Armor Class is the combination of factors that make the character harder to hit with a weapons: Dexterity adjustment, shield bonus, magical adjustments, Weapon Mastery defensive adjustments, wearing leather armor or lighter protection while using a weapon the character is proficient with (from Player's Option series), plus situational modifiers (if any). The AC is then subtracted from the attacker's to hit score to determine what will actually make contact with the defending character. I use a 20-sider for combat rolls where a 1 always hits and a 20 always misses (more about this shortly). As I stated earlier, my system is skill-based. Therefore, a character does not automatically know how to successfully wield any weapons. He or she has had enough exposure to weapons in general not to hurt themselves while handling one. When the character is created, if they choose to be proficient with one or more weapons, they will be. But that proficiency will be very minimal. They will have received basic training and not much more. This translates a little differently once you start speaking in game terms. All skills and spells in my system are Ranked numerically with 0 representing no real ability and 30+ representing Mastery and Grandmastery with the skill/spell in question. (Those who read my post about my spell system from yesterday will note a recurring theme.) There are six groupings that describe the various numerical spreads within this ranking system: unskilled (0), Basic (1-5), Skilled (6-15), Expert (16-24), Master (25- 34), Grandmaster (35+). Each weapon that a player chooses for his character are treated as separate skills. It is possible for the character to have a broad or narrow base skill in a weapon type (all bladed weapons, short bladed weapons, polearms, axes, short spears, etc.), but skill improvements will occur for individual weapons as opposed to the entire selection range. In a few cases, this may break down to separate categories for weapons that can be used in more than one style: the bastard sword can be used one- or two-handed, short spears can be thrown or used in melee. Regardless of weapon choice, a character has a basic 8 or under on 1d20 to hit an opponent (40% chance). If the character has a Dexterity adjustment (Aim for those using the Player's Option subabilities), this is added to the base to hit. The GM needs to note what an opponent's AC is to determine the final range in which a character will be able to score a successful hit. As the character gains experience with his weapon or weapons of choice, he improves in ranking, improving his base to hit number, damage potentially caused, AC (depending upon weapon), and gaining special abilities with that particular weapon (these abilities vary according to the weapon). The following chart illustrates the advancement: CATEGORY TO-HIT BASE NUMBER DAMAGE ADJUSTMENT Unskilled 8 1/2 damage Basic 8 Normal damage Skilled 9 +1 point of damage Expert 10 Drop one dice size and use one more die +1 point Master 11 Increase one die size +2 points Grandmaster 12 Use two more dice in determining damage NOTES: Base damage for a short sword in my campaigns is 1d6+1. So, as an example of how much damage a character could potentially do with a short sword at the various category levels, read on. Unskilled with the short sword, the character would half the roll of dice rounded up; at basic skill, the character does the normal 1d6+1; skilled, 1d6+2; expert, 2d4+2; Master, 2d6+3; and Grandmaster, 4d6+3. Grandmasters can be very nasty opponents, regardless of weapon they use. Fortunately, there are not a great many weapons grandmasters in the world. The special abilities gained and AC improvements based on category are dependent on the weapon used. those who have access to the OD&D Rules Cyclopedia can find the appropriate information in Chapter 5: Other Character Abilities, pages 78-79. Otherwise, I would advise making up these abilities, as posting them to the list would be copyright infringement (no flames please; I have other things to do with my time besides receiving/answering TSR's warnings about this subject). By now, I'm sure a few of you are wondering how ones Skill Rank improves in order to have a chance to reach these higher categories of weapon mastery. Practice, training, and practical experience. Use of a weapon gains one experience with it. Over time the character will improve. Training can help to accelerate the process slightly, but training is expensive and not guaranteed to teach you anything (think about it; not _every_ training or schooling course you've taken has ended up actually teaching you something). My judgment of when a character improves is subjective, with each new Skill Rank being harder to obtain then the previous (of course!). CRITICAL HITS AND FUMBLES First important notes: a character unskilled with a weapon cannot score a critical hit and Grandmasters never fumble - they may miss, but they never fumble! That out of the way, I do use both concepts in my game, though simplified compared to the charts in the Player's Options books. Critical hits occur on a natural roll of 1, regardless of Skill Rank (except for the unskilled as mentioned in the previous paragraph). The opponent gets a saving throw (10 or less on 1d20; 50% chance of avoiding your most awesome blow). If the opponent fails his/her/its saving throw, the player gets to roll 1d6 to determine a critical damage multiplier. 1-3 means to double damage rolled; 4-5 means to triple damage rolled, and a 6 means to quadruple the damage rolled. Fumbles have a different chance of occurring, dependent upon the character's skill category with his/her weapon. Unskilled characters fumble on a natural 16-20; Basic and Skilled fumble on a natural 19-20; Experts and Masters fumble on a natural 20; and Grandmasters never fumble. At this point I have the player roll percentile (1d100) dice. A result of 01-10 means a self-inflicted injury - the lower the percentile result, the more damage caused. On a result of 91-00, I have the player roll an additional attack against an ally nearby, or an enemy other than the intended opponent; if neither is reasonably possible, the character missed stylishly. Any result in between (11-90), I make up based on circumstance. With fumbles and criticals, I recommend that the GM be very creative. Not all fumbles are entirely bad, not all criticals are perfect attacks ("Watch where you're swinging that bloody axe, Boris! You almost took off my arm as you cleaved that goblin in two!"). With criticals, I compare the damage done with the total hit points of the opponent. Regardless of how I rule the resulting hit, if the opponent took more than one-third of its total hit points from a single blow, it must roll a standard saving throw to avoid being stunned. Also, for each 10 points of damage caused on a critical hit, the opponent is knocked back one foot (unless its two sizes larger than the attacker, in which case it must make a morale check). Be creative! Critical hits are usually caused by the opponent's miscue, not the character's great skill, though an occasional decapitation does serve to stir the blood of most adventurers. Fumbling can become a comic high point of a session or campaign. My players recall with glee more of the fumbles their characters have committed than the critical hits inflicted. Again, I implore you to be creative. In the huge mid-range on the percentile dice is the chance to put a sense of yourself in the melee. Why and how did the character miss? Distracted, itchy trigger finger on crossbow, bow string snapped, mosquito buzzing in ear, forget where he was for a moment, and so forth. I recently had two characters fumble in the same melee round. Just prior to this occurrence, one of their companions critically hit an orc, killing the orc. The killing of the orc was the character's first successful hit in combat in six or seven sessions. I ruled the two fumbles were because of the other characters' absolute amazement that their companion could not only hit an opponent, but could actually kill an opponent. This creativity can be extended to the other ranges of the fumble "chart" as well. For example, a few months ago, one of the elves in a group was trying to assist the group's amazon who was wrestling with an errant crocodile. The elf fumbled and the player rolled a 99 on the percentile dice. Possibly hit friend. Another attack was rolled which resulted in a critical hit. The attack was with a broad sword and resulted in a grand total of 36 points of damage (critical hit tripled damage result). I ruled that the elf managed to kill the crocodile by thrusting her sword through the amazon. (This example has a lot of dice rolling, but the end result was worth it!) On the other end of the "chart", a character charges toward a melee between a couple of companions and an auroch (prehistoric breed of cattle found in Europe as recently as 3000 years ago). He runs up a small knoll and dives toward the back of the auroch - fumbles his attack. Resulting percentile roll was 01. I ruled the auroch spotted him and turned to meet this new adversary. The character impaled himself on one of the auroch's horns for critical damage. Hope this answers some of the questions I've been asked by my players and via e-mail. Traki Tracy A. Bandy tbandy@cyberportal.net ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #126 ***************************** From ???@??? Fri Jun 14 11:04:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA05451; Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:40:00 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA02524 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jun 1996 02:27:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 02:27:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199606130727.CAA02524@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #127 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 81a9ee580f854baa2946c5cd0f12bd53 mystara-digest Thursday, 13 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 127 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Seah Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Re: your mail > * What will Rafiel do with it ? > Depending on whether he can hide it, he'll either be too busy defending it from Atzanteotl, or he'll be thinking of some way to use it to shield the Shadow Elves from Atzanteotl. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shaman supplement vs Ethengar? > > Is the spirit-world of the Ethengars connected to the Dreamlands (the > Fairy kingdoms) in Alfheim? Are the Fairy and spirits related somehow? > The origins the fairy give for themselves in PC1 is.. a little hard to > swallow, even if it was taken from the Christian myth for the origins of > the Fey (ie, in the original heavenly war, the angels who didn't take > sides became fairies). While I do not entirely buy the story about faeries being once gods and condemned to earth, I can subscribe to the theory that they are in fact, or were in fact, "of the gods," because they are generally depicted as Immortal. No other race has the same Immortality except for Tolkeinian elves, and they are probably "of the gods" as well, in origin. All other races are lesser evolved and "not of the gods," or long-lived for their ancient hybridization with fey races, or were corrupted and lost their immortality in the process. As for the Ethengar spirits and the like, I believe that's closer to the Shinto mysticisms where everything, man-made or otherwise, has a spirit. For instance, in Ah! My Goddess! episode 2, Beldandy recalls the spirit of a shrine to revive itself into its former glory. Under this sort of mythos, they have real power, but I do not believe they commonly have manifestations other than environmental effects -- although Dark Sun has the "Spirit of the Land" entity, I believe. Something else to look into, I suppose. As for their connection with Faeries, I think they are at once younger and more primal. Spirits are the "element of Life" in all things, however little that element exists in any one thing. Psychic impressions of people can stimulate them to be greater than they were. Hence, "cursed" weapons are those which were formerly used for great evil, and seem cursed only because "good" people are trying to use them for a contrary end. But I digress in my opinions... Spirits are "younger" than the Fey in that they are not Immortal -- of course, this depends on how the Fey and the first Immortals came into being under your cosmology for Mystara. > Is there any chance that the force that creates spirits, namely the > thoughts and feelings of mortals, is the same force that creates > Immortals? > That's the collective unconscious theory, and it exists in Tanakumba, I believe. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] What AD&D books will be useful? Well, I breaked down and plan to switch to AD&D ... So other than the basic 3 books, what optional books will be most useful in running a campaign, especially one set in Mystara, and which ones I shouldn't waste my money on. Thanks. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] What AD&D books will be useful? On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Well, I breaked down and plan to switch to AD&D ... So other than > the basic 3 books, what optional books will be most useful in > running a campaign, especially one set in Mystara, and which ones > I shouldn't waste my money on. Thanks. Well, since I use AD&D for play in Mystara, and I own a butt-ton of stuff for, perhaps I can help. The Complete Handbook Series Of all the new concepts introduced in AD&D I think the concept of the Kit is one of the strongest. In case you were unaware, a kit is template of sorts that a character can take. Each kit gives certain bonuses and penalties, plus gives guidelines for skills, role in society, and roleplaying suggestions. They allow a player to individualize his character, with out throwing the class system out the window. And each of the handbooks has a selection of kits. Each kit is class specific. A few examples of fighter kits are: Barbarian, Cavalier, Myrmidon and Amazon. Some notes on a few individual books... Wizard: This book is handy, especially if Glantri or Alphatia is going to play a part in a campaign. It details the schools of magic more, plus has new spells and rules on spell research and magic item creation. Priest: Less exciting than most, this handbook could be useful for creating specialty priests for Mystaran Immortals, although they tend to be underpowered. Fighter: With large sections on new wepaons and new combat rules and options, including basic martial arts and new forms of specialization, this book would be handy for anyone who plans on giving combat even a moderate roll in the campaign. Handy for combat-focused Thyatians. Thief: This handbook has a big section on interesting thieves equipment, and a very good section on thieves guilds. Very handy for designing the various guilds throughout Mystara. Bard: Some people are just not going to be this interested in the bard, but I rather like the book. Sections on musical instruments, bard-style spells and kits make the book good for adding color. Necromancers: It may sound silly: A 128 page book dedicated to a single type of of specialist wizard, but this book manages to pull it off. A host of new spells, new kits, new rules and such make for a very good book. Very good at providing atmosphere. Others: The only only other handbook I own is the Psionicists. I like it, but some people don't. The racial handbooks are of limited since Mystaran races are already fairly well outlined in the various Gazetteers. Some of the kits might be handy, though. The other class handbooks seemed like a stretch; like the Bard book it will depend on what you think of the class. Monsters What you think of these books will depend on your use of monsters in your campaigns. If they are rarely encountered you won't get much use out of them. Mystara Monstrous Appendix: This has most of OD&D and Mystara's native monsters in AD&D format. It's quite good, almost a "must have" for AD&D Mystara players. Monstrous Manual Annual Appendices: TSR plans on taking all the monsters released iin various sources and putting them in a single supplement every year. They have two so far. They have a good mix, and most seem to fit easily into Mystara. Rules Supplements There are a large number of genric rules supplements available for AD&D. Not all are good, IMHO, but some do stand out. Shaman: One of the best things TSR put out last year, this supplement details a new class: the shaman. Essentially a priests variant, it gets its spells from spirits, not gods. The class is a little weak, but brimming with roleplaying potential (after all, the character has to convince the spirits to teach it spells). The shaman class fits in easily with the Mystara setting. I could easily see elven shamans living in reclusive sites within Alfheim. And the class would work as the AD&D version of the Ethengarian shaman from the Gazetteer. I thoroughly recommend this one Tome of Magic: This hardback should nearly be considered part of the core rules. It contributes a lot to the priest class, giving them several completely new spheres of magic, plus a host of new spells. It also has new wizard spells, plus a few new specialist types. What campaign would be complete without at least one encounter with a wild mage? Players Options - High-Level Campaigns: I don't own this one, so I can't vouch for it. But the information that I hear it contains sounds quite applicable to Mystara. It has tenth level spells, which sounds like something to be found in the hands of Glantrian or Alphatian wizards. It also has rules for magickal dueling, again sounding handy for Glantri or Alphatia. Hell, the whole high- level thing sounds handy for Mystara in general, which has some higher power people. Players Options - Spells and Magic: This is the only PO book I own, and it is a good one. It has a bunch of new spells (Priest and Mage), new types of specialist wizards, better rules on spell research and magic item creation, and a spell point system that looks quite playable. Again, handy for any campaign where the magical nations will play an important part. Castle Guide: D&D had basic rules for building construction, but this book presents a much more detailed system. It also has a lot of good information on running domains and such, including taxes and such. Very handy if the players are looking to settle down and build a stronghold. The Encyclopedia Magica Volumes I-IV Containing every magic item ever printed in a TSR publication up to a certain year ('94, I believe), these books provide for an unholy variety of stuff. It includes all the stuff from various OD&D sources that are no longer available, such as the book of Marvelous Magic (which I looked for for years, unitl I bought these). Hope this helps. Of course the above is colored by my opinions, and other will certainly disagree. Feel free to ask questions. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do I know what do I know? (I), never look back never look back (no). Stick it in me stick it in me (I), what do I see what do I see? (now)" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (A Higher Form of) Killing ------------------------------ From: bruce.pierpont@buckys.com (Bruce Pierpont) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:02:25 GMT Subject: [Mystara] mark of amber q's - -> I'm currently working with Herve Musseau on new Mystara stuff and we - -> would like to know your opinion on the following questions: - -> - -> * When does "Mark of Amber" take place ? very shortly after woti ends. - -> * When will the new Nucleus of the Spheres in City of the Stars be - -> completed ? whenever the dm decides it is appropriate - -> * What will Rafiel do with it? use it to offset the power loss created by the other nucleus, rafiel is creating the equivalent of a nuclear generator. - -> - -> Thanks. Welcome. Bruce Pierpont ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Rakes and Foresters Well, I just today got Dawn of the Emporers. The rake and forester classes sound interesting, but they seem to apply only to Thyatis(espec. forester) but in the HW box, also by Aaron Allston, many cultures allow foresters and rakes. Does anyone use these classes in otehr cultures ands if so what rationale do use for their presence in those worlds? Dinobots. Transform and destroy. -Grimlock ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Re: your mail On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > I'm currently working with Herve Musseau on new Mystara stuff and we would > like to know your opinion on the following questions: > > * When does "Mark of Amber" take place ? 1013 AC, in the summer. > * When will the new Nucleus of the Spheres in City of the Stars be completed ? huh? explain!!!(?)! > * What will Rafiel do with it ? > > Thanks. > > ************** > Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it > DM in City Of The Stars > aka David Gnome, goblinslayer & smith in Cormyr > Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 > ************** > > ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:19:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] What AD&D books will be useful? I would definitely recommend "Player's Option: Skills and Powers" for adapting D&D/Mystara material to AD&D. In particular, the "Rake" works well as a customized Thief. Start with a standard Thief, remove the "Pick Pockets" and "Backstab" abilities, and then allocate those points to other abilities. Many other Mystaran character types can be constructed in AD&D terms the same way. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:19:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rakes and Foresters In a message dated 96-06-11 14:48:09 EDT, megst19+@pitt.edu (Mischa E Gelman) writes: << Well, I just today got Dawn of the Emporers. The rake and forester classes sound interesting, but they seem to apply only to Thyatis(espec. forester) but in the HW box, also by Aaron Allston, many cultures allow foresters and rakes. Does anyone use these classes in otehr cultures ands if so what rationale do use for their presence in those worlds? >> I have generally noticed that new features introduced in a Gazetteer were generally first described as unique to that culture, to explain the lack of previous mention. However, a case could be made for both Rakes and Foresters being found elsewhere: Rake: Essentially a swashbuckling variant of the Thief, as is the Robrenn Bard described in the Princess Ark series. Rakes fit into any civilized as opposed to barbarian setting. Forester: All Elves and Half-Elves can be considered Foresters in Mystara, but obviously Humans who can combine the Fighter and Mage classes would be much rarer. Foresters would be found only in nations where Humans and Elves are especially friendly with one another (for example, in Karameikos), or in nations that have secret magical traditions (for example, the Merchant Princes of Minrothad). Glantri, in particular, is a nation where Human Foresters would NOT be found. Also, in case this message somehow winds up with "No Subject" in the header -- why does this happen? The subject I see on my screen is "Re: [Mystara] Rakes and Foresters", and every other list that I have submitted e-mail to has correctly carried the header. Why is this one different? ------------------------------ From: Jason Zavoda Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] New Mystara paperback coming out in august I saw an ad for a new Mystara paperback due out in august, does anyone have any information on it? Jason Zavoda ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jun 12 01:08:29 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 11 Jun 96 21:08 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA21089 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:31:37 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA21038 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:24:28 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA02787 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:20:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA15068 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:19:50 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:19:50 -0400 Message-ID: <960611201949_215382612@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] What AD&D books will be useful? Content-Length: 388 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I would definitely recommend "Player's Option: Skills and Powers" for adapting D&D/Mystara material to AD&D. In particular, the "Rake" works well as a customized Thief. Start with a standard Thief, remove the "Pick Pockets" and "Backstab" abilities, and then allocate those points to other abilities. Many other Mystaran character types can be constructed in AD&D terms the same way. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jun 12 01:15:50 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 11 Jun 96 21:15 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA21107 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:32:02 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA21039 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:24:30 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA02782 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:20:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA03112 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:19:37 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:19:37 -0400 Message-ID: <960611201936_215382608@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rakes and Foresters Content-Length: 1660 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-11 14:48:09 EDT, megst19+@pitt.edu (Mischa E Gelman) writes: << Well, I just today got Dawn of the Emporers. The rake and forester classes sound interesting, but they seem to apply only to Thyatis(espec. forester) but in the HW box, also by Aaron Allston, many cultures allow foresters and rakes. Does anyone use these classes in otehr cultures ands if so what rationale do use for their presence in those worlds? >> I have generally noticed that new features introduced in a Gazetteer were generally first described as unique to that culture, to explain the lack of previous mention. However, a case could be made for both Rakes and Foresters being found elsewhere: Rake: Essentially a swashbuckling variant of the Thief, as is the Robrenn Bard described in the Princess Ark series. Rakes fit into any civilized as opposed to barbarian setting. Forester: All Elves and Half-Elves can be considered Foresters in Mystara, but obviously Humans who can combine the Fighter and Mage classes would be much rarer. Foresters would be found only in nations where Humans and Elves are especially friendly with one another (for example, in Karameikos), or in nations that have secret magical traditions (for example, the Merchant Princes of Minrothad). Glantri, in particular, is a nation where Human Foresters would NOT be found. Also, in case this message somehow winds up with "No Subject" in the header -- why does this happen? The subject I see on my screen is "Re: [Mystara] Rakes and Foresters", and every other list that I have submitted e-mail to has correctly carried the header. Why is this one different? ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rakes and Foresters Subject header seemed to come out fine on my copy ... I agree with Kaviyd that the Player's Option skills and powers book is a good way to do the variant Mystara classes in AD&D terms, as well as to create new variants ... and yes classes similar to the rake should be found in a lot of cultures where trickery is appreciated but thievery is looked down upon. One might also find goblinoid thief-types who specialize in tunneling and find/remove traps while leaving off other skills, etc. ... possibilities are endless. I disagree with the idea of expanding human foresters, however, and I tend to cut down the number of double classes elves where possible by requiring a minimum of 13 in the Prime Req. of each class. Multi-classed characters are ok when relatively rare but they have always annoyed me when allowed to go unchecked. When you allow humans with no level limits to be foresters then essentially you will have a game full of all multi-classed characters. I prefer to force most pc's, human and demi- alike, to choose just one class ... then if they really want unusual abilities, they can pay for them at high cost using the point system in S&P - One character in my campaign wears metal armor, fights with a polearm, and has 8 hit points at first level ... but he's a mage! the trick is he can only use one school of magic ... song. This prevents imbalance but allows for a totally unique character with multiple abilities. M@2 ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 21:12:15 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Foresters in AD&D There is actually a single class that would quite accurately represent a Human Forester from Mystara -- the Bard. Grant him the ability to cast spells while wearing armor but take away most of his Rogue abilities and you have a reasonable approximation to a Forester. Anyone who has _Skills and Powers_ could probably work out the adjustments needed for their particular campaign. If the Bard class is used to represent Foresters, then that class could actually be fairly common. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jun 13 03:00:01 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 12 Jun 96 23:00 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA29955 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:36:45 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA29886 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:30:39 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25586 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:12:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19058 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 21:12:15 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 21:12:15 -0400 Message-ID: <960612211214_133765466@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Foresters in AD&D Content-Length: 484 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com There is actually a single class that would quite accurately represent a Human Forester from Mystara -- the Bard. Grant him the ability to cast spells while wearing armor but take away most of his Rogue abilities and you have a reasonable approximation to a Forester. Anyone who has _Skills and Powers_ could probably work out the adjustments needed for their particular campaign. If the Bard class is used to represent Foresters, then that class could actually be fairly common. ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Foresters in AD&D On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > There is actually a single class that would quite accurately represent > a Human Forester from Mystara -- the Bard. Grant him the ability to > cast spells while wearing armor but take away most of his Rogue > abilities and you have a reasonable approximation to a Forester. > Anyone who has _Skills and Powers_ could probably work out the > adjustments needed for their particular campaign. If the Bard class > is used to represent Foresters, then that class could actually be fairly > common. > Only for characters with a 15+ charisma. While we're on the subject, that's another problem I've seen with AD&D - just as the "limits" on multi-class characters don't discourage them enough, the "minimums" for classes don't seem to do anything except encourage dice inflation and cheating. IMC PC's get 3 dice per stat only, no rerolls, and if they don't qualify for their favorite subclass, then so be it. There are only about a half dozen rangers, 2 paladins, and 1 bard that I can think of in the 200+ PC's that have existed in my game over the years. This is as it should be, I think. M@2 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #127 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 18 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 128 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:50:11 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Another WWW page... & "Shadows Over Mystara" game? I just found yet another Web page dealing with Mystara: http://www.angelfire.com/pages1/estlor/ I don't know who the authour is, or their email address; I simply know about the page itself and what's on it. It just so happens that from said page you can link to a set of screen-shots for a game called "Shadows Over Mystara". This is the first I've ever heard of the game; does anybody know anything about it? And while we're on the topic, has anybody played either Fantasy Empires (written in my own city even! :) ) or Stronghold? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 23:53:05 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another WWW page... & "Shadows Over Mystara" game? Daniel Boese writes: > And while we're on the topic, has anybody played either Fantasy Empires > (written in my own city even! :) ) or Stronghold? Ya, I've played both and found them quite enjoyable. They both fall into the Civilization/SimCity class of games, though they are not nearly so addictive as those two classics (but then again, except for maybe Crack, what is?). I would recommend them both, especially now that they may be acquired very cheaply in those multi-game bundle packs from SSI. On a side note, it was actually FANTASY EMPIRES that got me interested in MYSTARA in the first place. All my early roleplaying experiences involved custom made worlds, so even when I played Basic D&D I never played on MYSTARA. I have come to the Known World of late (and perhaps TOO late since TSR seems to have abandoneded it) and I love it. Later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Definition of a Pesismist: What an Optimist calls a Realist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another WWW page... & "Shadows Over Mystara" game? Daniel Boese pontificated: > > And while we're on the topic, has anybody played either Fantasy Empires > (written in my own city even! :) ) or Stronghold? > I played Fantasy Empires, and at best it is an average game. Other than the map and the name of a few computer opponents, there are not that much related to Mystara. It is best described as a more complex game of Risk. The units and spells availibles are few, and the AI really sucks. The overhead view of battle are somewhat neat at first but gets boring fairly quickly. Overall, it is a OK game, there are better games out there, but I seen much worse games too; But when I first got it due to the Mystara label, I was really disappointed. And it disappointed me enough that I never went out and get Stronghold. >From what I heard, Stronghold have a poor interface, but thats about all I can remember about it. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:17:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another WWW page... & "Shadows Over Mystara" game? >> And while we're on the topic, has anybody played either Fantasy Empires >> (written in my own city even! :) ) or Stronghold? > I played StrongHold about 6 months ago. I agree it's neither a great, nor terrible game. As far as I remember there's no Mystara connection to it at all. The basic premise is you create a character to be you, then you create 4 other party members to be your "lieutenants". You pick places for them to build their keeps (you get a castle) and then the population slowly grows or fails depending on how much food and housing you have, and assuming there's open land for them to walk to. Eventually your people grow out and encounter monsters (each with their own capital and stronghold) and have to either kill or be killed. All in all it's a decent little sim, with a lot of good OD&D variations. Some of it's interface and workings are moderately impressive (for example it keeps track of the xp of every citizen in your realms and what class/level they are.) It's not a game that a lot of people would want to play more then once all the way through, though. After that you pretty much know how to do everything the right way from the beginning how every monster will react as you fight it and then there's not much challenge. I bought my copy in one of those "We're throwing them out anyway" bins at a computer store for $10. I'd say I got my money's worth. - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Joel Keene Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] What AD&D books will be useful? Just a quick note on rakes in my campaign. The backstab skill has been replaced with a knockout skill. Knockout works the same as backstab..+4 hit and must be unnoticed to do it successfully but does no permanent damage. The rake must use a blackjack or similar weapon to do it. Anyone who is successfully knocked out (only humanoids of man size or smaller ) is rendered unconcious for d100 rounds. hope this is of use to someone :) Joe On Tue, 11 Jun 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > I would definitely recommend "Player's Option: Skills and Powers" for > adapting D&D/Mystara material to AD&D. In particular, the "Rake" works > well as a customized Thief. Start with a standard Thief, remove the "Pick > Pockets" and "Backstab" abilities, and then allocate those points to > other abilities. Many other Mystaran character types can be constructed > in AD&D terms the same way. > ------------------------------ From: David Keyser Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:17:12 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] First Quest Books > >>>"In Dixie McKeone's /Son of Dawn/, an orphan leaves his island home to > >>>embark on a perilous trek across the continent of Brun to return two > >>>kidnapped Shadow Elf children to their royal parents." > >>> > >>By the way, do you, or anyone else know which "First Quest" books are on > >>Mystara and which are not? "First Quest" sounds so... generic, I wish they > >>would have separated the Mystara ones and called them a Mystara series > >>instead of lumping it in with that beginner's stuff. Geez! Mystara had > >>36th and immortal level adventures, so I guess that means it's a beginner's > >>world, isn't it! I suppose TSR thinks so. Does anyone know if the "First > >>Quest" boxed set is on Mystara, and if it is, is it good? > > > > > >There were 6 First Quest books, but only two are set in Mystara, the other 4 > >are generic worlds. They are written for the reading level of young teenagers > >though. > > > >In my opinion, > > > >Son of Dawn is good as campaign background and can be adapted into a full > length > >adventure for PCs with some work. It is set in 1010 AC. It is definitely > worth > >getting if you are a Mystara collector. > > > >Rogues to Riches is the other Mystara novel, and it is set in Norworld. It is > >next to useless for campaign background, only very scanty details of the rulers > >of the three main cities are provided, and a few details of Heldannic Knights > >(as good guys). > > > > > Wait, isn't Son of Dawn part of the Quest Triad? I thought it would be four > then. > > David Melik > Sorry about taking so long to get back to you on these First Quest books. There were 6 First Quest books, three go together as a trilogy, the other three are completely unrelated to each other or to the trilogy. Son of Dawn, Rogues to Riches, and Summerhill Hounds are the unrelated books, and Son of Dawn and Rogues to Riches are set in Mystara. Summerhill Hounds is not. I have only seen the first book of the trilogy, Pawns to Prevail, and it is not set in Mystara. The book definitely uses themes found in D&D, there are Immortals(inluding Immortals of Entropy), the main villain in the book is a nightwing, and fairies are Immortals as well(taken from PC1). But the world is not located anywhere on Mystara. And the Immortals in the book are not found in the Wrath of Immortals boxed set. I have not seen the other two books in the trilogy. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ From: David Keyser Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:04:40 -0700 Subject: [Mystara] Video and Computer games set in Mystara > It just so happens that from said page you can link to a set of >screen-shots for a game called "Shadows Over Mystara". This is the first >I've ever heard of the game; does anybody know anything about it? >And while we're on the topic, has anybody played either Fantasy Empires >(written in my own city even! :) ) or Stronghold? To the best of my knowledge, here is all of the computer and arcade games that are set in Mystara Fantasy Empires(for PC) - I concur that this game ok, maybe worth buying for $10-$15, but they only used the D&D Known World setting with the map and some of the characters from Gazeteers to add spice. The characters are generals that you can fight against with your armies. Warriors of the Eternal Sun(Sega Genesis) - I only know this is set in the Hollow World. I just ordered this game(used) from a dealer, and have not received it yet. If it has some good background/ideas for the Hollow World, I can send it out on this mailing list if people want it. Tower of Doom(Arcade Game) - This game makes for a great hack and slash adventure. You can have up to 4 players, fighter, cleric, elf, and dwarf. The game is set in Darokin, and the adventurers travel to many locales, visiting the town of Nemiston, Fort Cruth, Darokin City, Fort Runnels and meet Corwyn Linton(head of the third most powerful merchant house in Darokin). The players must save Darokin from bands of monsters, which are being led by a very powerful creature with its base in the Broken Lands. You get to fight kobolds, gnolls, skeletons, ghouls, ogres, trolls, troglodytes, stirges, hellhounds, mud golems, as well as some unique monsters from Mystara. It has some good background, for example, in the town Nemiston, you can visit the Shady Dragon Inn(the old AC1 accessory). I played it a number of times with some friends, and I am considering adapting the game into a written adventure. Since it is an arcade game though, it is not too demanding on the brain. Shadows Over Mystara(Arcade Game) - I don't know much about this yet, but I do know it is the sequel to Tower of Doom, the characters from the first game appear again in this one. I am planning to play it this weekend with the same friends from Tower of Doom, so I can give more details later. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 01:32:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Video and Computer games set in Mystara In a message dated 96-06-14 18:09:59 EDT, davidk@Synopsys.COM (David Keyser) writes: << Fantasy Empires(for PC) - I concur that this game ok, maybe worth buying for $10-$15, but they only used the D&D Known World setting with the map and some of the characters from Gazeteers to add spice. The characters are generals that you can fight against with your armies. >> A better deal is the "Ultimate Fantasy" CD-ROM bundle, which gives "Stronghold", "Fantasy Empires", and three other games for $20. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jun 15 06:08:13 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 15 Jun 96 02:08 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA18436 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:35:44 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA18428 for ; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:34:13 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA17312 for ; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:32:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA14202 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 01:32:44 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 01:32:44 -0400 Message-ID: <960615013243_328832214@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Video and Computer games set in Mystara Content-Length: 504 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-14 18:09:59 EDT, davidk@Synopsys.COM (David Keyser) writes: << Fantasy Empires(for PC) - I concur that this game ok, maybe worth buying for $10-$15, but they only used the D&D Known World setting with the map and some of the characters from Gazeteers to add spice. The characters are generals that you can fight against with your armies. >> A better deal is the "Ultimate Fantasy" CD-ROM bundle, which gives "Stronghold", "Fantasy Empires", and three other games for $20. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 03:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Video and Computer games set in Mystara David Keyser pontificated: > Warriors of the Eternal Sun(Sega Genesis) - I only know this is set in the > Hollow World. I just ordered this game(used) from a dealer, and have not > received it yet. If it has some good background/ideas for the Hollow World, I > can send it out on this mailing list if people want it. Please do. > > Tower of Doom(Arcade Game) - This game makes for a great hack and slash When did this game came out? I never seen it before. Of course, since there are no arcade store in my town, I haven't been to a real arcade in almost a year (sigh). Is it anything like Gate of Doom that came out several years ago? > > Shadows Over Mystara(Arcade Game) - I don't know much about this yet, but I do > know it is the sequel to Tower of Doom, the characters from the first game > appear again in this one. I am planning to play it this weekend with the same > friends from Tower of Doom, so I can give more details later. > I guess this games have been under development for a while before the Mystara campaign got scratched. Still, it is a bit surprising that TSR didn't market some of its bigger name campaign first. Maybe this game will become a hit and lots of people will ask about TSR about Mystara making TSR decide to bring Mystara back to life! Well, we can dream, right? - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 07:21:23 CDT Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Products Where can I get a list of all the Mystara products to date? AD&D and D&D included. Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 15:01:31 CDT Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Product List? Where can I get a list of all the Mystara products to date? AD&D and D&D included. Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 17:29:08 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Product List? Jonathan M Thompson writes: > > Where can I get a list of all the Mystara products to date? AD&D and D&D > included. Try at ftp.mpgn.com A list should be there.. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) Am I right in assuming a dwarf-cleric is treeated like a normal cleric, but with infravision, dwarven weapon choices and dwarven saves with max level of 12? Hey, Blitzwing. Tank you-Warpath (heh heh) ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > Am I right in assuming a dwarf-cleric is treeated like a normal cleric, > but with infravision, dwarven weapon choices and dwarven saves with max > level of 12? A quick rundown on the Dwarf Cleric from Dwrves of Rockhome... Must be Lawful and follwo Kagyar Cast cleric spells Can only raise dwarves from the dead Cannot trun undead Six sided dice for HP's Any armour, plus shield Dwarf-style weapons only (warhammer, battle axe, throwing axe, a couple of polearms) Dwarven saving throws All the standard dwarven abilities. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Alex JAZAYERI Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:18:49 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) About those dwarf clerics: remember that they need about 3500 XP to go up a level. This is obtained by adding the dwarf class XP to the Cleric class XP. Assuming you are using good ole D&D ;-). Alex ------------------------------ From: urklore@tiac.net Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:19:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Official Mystara Mailing List Web Page... what is the address of your page kind sir? ************************************************************************ * Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord * * Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) * * Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord * * Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the Netdisks, Keeper of 79 RPG Systems * * Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling * * "Welcome" "You've got mail" "Files done" woosh!!! ROBOTECH Master * * Official Tiac "SENIOR" Customer Support Employee! Muad'dib Disciple * * "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" * * "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." * * "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" * * "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never lie * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jun 19 00:03:07 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 18 Jun 96 20:03 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12287 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:31:02 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA12209 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:24:46 -0500 Received: from maildeliver4.tiac.net (maildeliver4.tiac.net [199.0.65.168]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28444 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:17:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mailserver2.tiac.net (mailserver2.tiac.net [199.0.65.231]) by maildeliver4.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with ESMTP id TAA03839 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:20:12 -0400 Received: from 204.215.134.166 (urklore.tiac.net [204.215.134.166]) by mailserver2.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with SMTP id TAA20733 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:19:57 -0400 From: urklore@tiac.net Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:19:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199606182319.TAA20733@mailserver2.tiac.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 994 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Official Mystara Mailing List Web Page... To: mystara-l@io.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com what is the address of your page kind sir? ************************************************************************ * Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord * * Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) * * Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord * * Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the Netdisks, Keeper of 79 RPG Systems * * Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling * * "Welcome" "You've got mail" "Files done" woosh!!! ROBOTECH Master * * Official Tiac "SENIOR" Customer Support Employee! Muad'dib Disciple * * "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" * * "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." * * "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" * * "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never lie * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #128 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 21 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 129 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cawimm0@service1.uky.edu (Charles A. Wimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:56:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Official Mystara Mailing List Web Page... This is the coolest .sig I have ever seen! Congratulations. >what is the address of your page kind sir? > >************************************************************************ >* Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord * >* Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) * >* Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord * >* Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the Netdisks, Keeper of 79 RPG Systems * >* Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling * >* "Welcome" "You've got mail" "Files done" woosh!!! ROBOTECH Master * >* Official Tiac "SENIOR" Customer Support Employee! Muad'dib Disciple * >* "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" * >* "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." * >* "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" * >* "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never lie * >************************************************************************ - -- Charles A. Wimmer |cawimm0@pop.uky.edu-work |Home(606)275-1263 323 College of Pharmacy|cawimmer@rutherford.win.net-home |Work(606)257-1169 University of Kentucky |http://ph99.pharm.uky.edu |Cell(606)221-3456 Lexington, Kentucky |finger @ph99.uky.edu for schedule|Page(606)231-4710 ------------------------------ From: KABOOM! Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim Ok. How come I'm not receiving any more message from this mailing list? ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim KABOOM! pontificated: > > Ok. How come I'm not receiving any more message from this mailing list? > I think the mailing list is a bit slow at the moment because there are not many new discussions going on and many college people are in summer break. In an attempt to jump start the mailing list a bit, I plan to throw some random questions from time to time when there are not much going on. First question ... Spoiler warning for the Dragon Trilogy ... What do people think of the Dragon* Trilogy? Do you think that the event described within should be consider as cannon? The early history of Flaem, creation of gemstone dragon, creation of the star dragon, etc. Also, why is the third book titled Dragonmage, other than Dragonruler will be too obvious. Also, do people consider it a bit strange that the true name of the bad guy was never revealed? From the way the book is written, it seems like it should be a name that we all recognize but the author intentionally hidden it until the very end, except that it wasn't revealed in the end either. Finally, does anyone else felt the names of the Dragonruler seems to be a bit out of place? Such as the Lawful Dragonruler Diamond should be call the Sun Dragon, instead of the Star Dragon, especially given the description in the book. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, KABOOM! wrote: > Ok. How come I'm not receiving any more message from this mailing list? We have entered summer, which means a lot of the people who have accounts through their schools will be unsubscribing from the list. Chances are the list may be a bit slow over the summer. Still, there is stil enough of us to get a good discussion going. The best way to liven a list up is to toss out some questions or comments. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 22:52:13 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Gazeteer's Wanted I am looking to buy any and all Gazeteers except for Karameikos, Glantri, Northern Reaches and Dawn of the Emperors. If anyone has some for sale, please e-mail me with prices. Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Definition of a Pesimist: What an Optimist calls a Realist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 22:14:19 CDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim > > >On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, KABOOM! wrote: > >> Ok. How come I'm not receiving any more message from this mailing list? > > > We have entered summer, which means a lot of the people who have >accounts through their schools will be unsubscribing from the list. >Chances are the list may be a bit slow over the summer. > Still, there is stil enough of us to get a good discussion going. The >best way to liven a list up is to toss out some questions or comments. Is there a master list containg spheres that the immortals grant? and was Galantri Kingdom of Magic ever released? Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim Jonathan M Thompson pontificated: > > Is there a master list containg spheres that the immortals grant? and was > Galantri Kingdom of Magic ever released? Mr. Bruce Pierpont (I'm sorry if I spelled it incorrectly) has created such a list containing all of the major immortal from A to K, I think. You can get that list from the mailing list archive or I can email it to you if you like. Glantri boxset have been released for quite a while now, but I will recommand the old Gazteers. > > Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. > Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe > Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television And it is doing a much better job than being the last, best hope for peace :) - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:27:07 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim > Is there a master list containg spheres that the immortals grant? As far as I'm aware, you'd have to create your own; but I believe that in the archives there are some AD&D versions typed out by somebody.. Leroy? > was Galantri Kingdom of Magic ever released? Yes, the Glantri boxed set was released. Though the consensus seems to be that GAZ3: The Principalities of Glantri is better.. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Spheres and Glantri... On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > Is there a master list containg spheres that the immortals grant? > As far as I'm aware, you'd have to create your own; but I believe that in > the archives there are some AD&D versions typed out by somebody.. Leroy? [Like eldritch Cthulhu, Leroy hears the call, and rises from the depths] Yup. Bruce Pierpoint did some work on the specialty priests of some of the Immortals. I believe he got as far as Al-Kalim, alphabetically. His work can be requested from the list server. See my web page for an index and the FAQ... http://www.io.com/~oryon > > was Galantri Kingdom of Magic ever released? > Yes, the Glantri boxed set was released. Though the consensus seems to be > that GAZ3: The Principalities of Glantri is better.. :) Most definitely. The Glantri boxed set actually managed to give less information on the principality. Some of the new spells were kinda cool, though. Definitely go for the Gazetteer, if you can find it. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: cthulhu.jordan@wmich.edu Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim Glantri WAS released, and soon after, the line was dropped. It's still available in discount hobby stores. (check the bins) Pete ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 09:34:20 CDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Glantri... > > >On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > >> > Is there a master list containg spheres that the immortals grant? >> As far as I'm aware, you'd have to create your own; but I believe that in >> the archives there are some AD&D versions typed out by somebody.. Leroy? > >[Like eldritch Cthulhu, Leroy hears the call, and rises from the depths] > > Yup. Bruce Pierpoint did some work on the specialty priests of some >of the Immortals. I believe he got as far as Al-Kalim, alphabetically. >His work can be requested from the list server. See my web page for an >index and the FAQ... > > http://www.io.com/~oryon > >> > was Galantri Kingdom of Magic ever released? >> Yes, the Glantri boxed set was released. Though the consensus seems to be >> that GAZ3: The Principalities of Glantri is better.. :) > > Most definitely. The Glantri boxed set actually managed to give less >information on the principality. Some of the new spells were kinda cool, >though. > Definitely go for the Gazetteer, if you can find it. It looked to me that MYSTARA would have done better in AD&D if they hadnt insisted on all those CDs to put in all the products. I cant recall if I ever ulisted to the CD. Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Glantri... Jonathan M Thompson pontificated: > > It looked to me that MYSTARA would have done better in AD&D if they hadnt > insisted on all those CDs to put in all the products. I cant recall if I > ever ulisted to the CD. The Karameiko CD are interesting to listen to once ... You can hear the bad acting through voice alone :) The Red Steel CD is mostly music, so I don't mind it that much. Mark of Amber CD is probably nice to add favor to the adventure, although I haven't ran the module yet. I don't really understand why they put CDs on Mystara line either. It was suppose to be a product line for beginner and younger players, one would think the price should be kept low ... - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jun 20 16:15:23 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from IO.COM by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 20 Jun 96 12:15 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA23992 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:22:34 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA23957 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:20:58 -0500 Received: from gw.wmich.edu (gw.wmich.edu [141.218.1.100]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22017 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:13:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.wmich.edu (piglet.cc.wmich.edu [141.218.20.105]) by gw.wmich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15393 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:13:43 -0400 Received: from wmich.edu by wmich.edu (PMDF V5.0-5 #5064) id <01I64MABVO3K91WIGT@wmich.edu> for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:12:53 -0400 (EDT) From: cthulhu.jordan@wmich.edu Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:14:19 -0500 (CDT)" <9606200314.AA05196@pti.prysm.net> To: mystara-l@IO.COM Message-id: <01I64MDDNTW491WIGT@wmich.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Length: 132 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-mystara-l@IO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@IO.COM Glantri WAS released, and soon after, the line was dropped. It's still available in discount hobby stores. (check the bins) Pete ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:20:28 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim > What do people think of the Dragon* Trilogy? I enjoyed it immensely; Thorarin Gunnarsson (sp) not only researched Mystara quite well, but wove in his own ideas (not to mention excellent plot and characters) with finesse.. > Do you think that the > event described within should be consider as cannon? The early history > of Flaem, creation of gemstone dragon, creation of the star dragon, etc. Why not? As far as I'm aware, it doesn't conflict with anything already known, and adds some interesting touches to Mystara's past and present.. > Also, why is the third book titled Dragonmage, other than Dragonruler > will be too obvious. The first book, in the flyleaf, claimed that the third would be called "Great One of Mystara".. I suppose T.G. changed his mind. Other than that, I can't really think of anything except "Authour's choice". > Also, do people consider it a bit strange that the > true name of the bad guy was never revealed? From the way the book is > written, it seems like it should be a name that we all recognize but > the author intentionally hidden it until the very end, except that it > wasn't revealed in the end either. What you want T.G. to draw the attention of []? :) I don't entirely agree with you that the BigBagGuy is somebody we already know.. unless it's Alphaks, who &#G%j$kk]# NO CARRIER (Sorry, couldn't resist :) ) > Finally, does anyone else felt the > names of the Dragonruler seems to be a bit out of place? Such as the > Lawful Dragonruler Diamond should be call the Sun Dragon, instead of > the Star Dragon, especially given the description in the book. Hm... about all I can say is that "The Great One has a mind greater than our mere mortal ones, and has his own reasons for naming his three followers as such.".. which is a cop-out, I know. That reminds me.. As far as I'm aware, there's about 4 different Star Dragons or so floating around... The one listed in the original sets as a "Monster"; the one described in the Immortal Sets; The one listed in the Dragon* of Mystara books; and the Glantri Prince, High Master of Dracology (but in Dragon #170, it claims that once he knew more about Dragons, he retired, and now the lawful Dragons are preparing to decide who'll be the new Star Dragon); The first two are essentially the same.. but significantly different from T.G.'s version. Perhaps when von Drachenfels ascended to the position, T.G.'s version retired, and then the 'original' version turned up after the Dracologist retired? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: "D.A.S.O." <910743@CENCO.ULIMA.EDU.PE> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:46:22 GMT -5 Subject: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric I can use Cleric rules for Elfs??? (in D&D) ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:46:12 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named Anne Hey folks! It's been a while since I floated my .02 here, but here's a question. I am currently running a D&D campaign in Mystara. I was disappointed with TSR's change inthe AD&D system of past, so opted a D&D cmapaing. Now I see more and more people liking the "new" AD&D and was wondering how it was. I have not played the "new" one since it first came out. Is it worth me getting the stuff to convert over to AD&D? What classes are restricted to/from Mystara if any? How does the "new" AD&D stuff fit in with the "D&D feel" of Mystara? Thanks Joe ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 0:05:48 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim Jonathan M Thompson writes: > > Is there a master list containg spheres that the immortals grant? and was > Galantri Kingdom of Magic ever released? Yeah, the new Glantri boxed set was released, but the old Gaz is much better, get it if you can. There is a listing of Mystara specialty priests on the Mystara homepage, but I can't remember the http right now... Leroy? Somebody help me out here.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Brandy106@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:58:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) why would a dwarf have any different cleric abilities than any other race? It would be kind of silly. ------------------------------ From: Brandy106@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:02:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named Anne Just like with any campaign, you can make your own rules. What TSR did with the new line is to try to make a vehicle for new gamers into the hobby and they horribly failed. But I think that the boxed sets create some good background material, if you can get past the talking CD. Some of the music is cool though. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #129 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 21 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 130 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jun 21 05:44:29 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 21 Jun 96 01:44 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA01512 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:07:25 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA01472 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:01:09 -0500 Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA24524 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:57:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA16665 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:58:03 -0400 From: Brandy106@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:58:03 -0400 Message-ID: <960621005802_221923274@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) Content-Length: 103 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com why would a dwarf have any different cleric abilities than any other race? It would be kind of silly. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jun 21 06:00:43 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 21 Jun 96 02:00 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA01507 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:07:14 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA01479 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:04:38 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA24729 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:02:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA17276 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:02:08 -0400 From: Brandy106@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:02:08 -0400 Message-ID: <960621010207_221925832@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named Anne Content-Length: 316 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Just like with any campaign, you can make your own rules. What TSR did with the new line is to try to make a vehicle for new gamers into the hobby and they horribly failed. But I think that the boxed sets create some good background material, if you can get past the talking CD. Some of the music is cool though. ------------------------------ From: Alex JAZAYERI Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:49:04 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named Anne Regarding the kind gent. wishing to switch from a D&D campaign to an AD&D campaign, he has hit on a bit of a major point (for me, at least :-). D&D is far, far simpler than AD&D. It has a very different feel to it, in as much as things are never too complicated, and there is rarely the chance for PCs to get into all those complicated multi-class type thingies they love to get up to so well. In effect, the whole of Mystara (as described in the old gazzeteers) rather assumes this simplicity in order to make those foreigners actually seem outlandish, rather than just another fighter/mage/thief/god. Don't get me wrong. I've played lots of AD&D, and it's good fun. But whereas I find D&D to be simple fun, I find AD&D to be a kind of strategy game, where choosing your abilities is crucial to your having a good game. Sigh. I just run D&D most of the times anyway, because of the absolutely great weapon proficiency rules. Although they can be too powerful, they do ensure that combat never lasts too long. Sorry. Don't know what brought that on. ;-) Alex ------------------------------ From: Alex JAZAYERI Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:57:35 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) >why would a dwarf have any different cleric abilities than any other race? > It would be kind of silly. No. Only in AD&D parlance, anyway. The whole premise behind Dwarf clerics was that they were rarely, if ever, seen out side Rockhome. In fact, their existence is kept a well guarded secret. They are a rather aloof lot in the first place, maintaining the opinion that dwaarves are better than the rest, and we can do without them thakyou very much. In addition, I gather that the Rockhome mountains are rather devoid of undead, which probably acounts for their inability to turn them. It all tends to balance out, though, 'cause dwarves get better thac0 than normal clerics, better saving throws, infravision, and that ability to detect stoney things. They still can't use pointy weapons, and are restricted to worshipping that dwarfish immortal whose name I forgot. BTW the person who asked if you can have elf clerics has missed the point. But otherwise, of course you can. DMs have power. DO WHAT YOU WANT! Alex Again. ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 15:28:04 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric At 14.46 20/06/96 -5, you wrote: > >I can use Cleric rules for Elfs??? (in D&D) > As DM you can do what you like most, but if you sticks to the D&D rules there aren't Elf-Clerics. On the other hand in Gaz5 (Alfheim) you can found the Treekeepers, the elvish version of clerics (well, not exactly...). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:00:13 AST Subject: RCPT: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric Confirmation of reading: your message - Date: 20 Jun 96 14:46 To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric Was read at 11:00, 21 Jun 96. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:02:55 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric > I can use Cleric rules for Elfs??? (in D&D) I don't know what you mean. If you mean in OD&D then there is a elven cleric class (GAZ5- Elves of Alfheim, Treekeeper class). Treekeepers are mage-priests who tend the clan relics, their spells are a mix of MU and Cleric, but all originate from Ilsundal and the Trees of Life (ie. they can cast a fireball, but they must pray for it, not study it). HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 15:28:08 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim Why there are so many postings with the subject "Opinion on Shadowelves taking over Alfheim" and none of them is about Shadowelves taking over Alfheim ? BTW: I'm working with Herve on the SE invasion of Alfheim, we'll post the complete version to the mailing list as soon as it will be ready but if anyone wants a preview just mail me. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 12:10:48 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gazeteer's Wanted Dave Brohman writes: > > I am looking to buy any and all Gazeteers except for Karameikos, Glantri, > Northern Reaches and Dawn of the Emperors. If anyone has some for sale, > please e-mail me with prices. > > Thanks. I don't have any for sale, but Fandom does, why not check it out? BTW - Do you have any old D&D modules for sale? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Apology Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > Why there are so many postings with the subject "Opinion on Shadowelves > taking over Alfheim" and none of them is about Shadowelves taking over Alfheim ? I'm sorry, I made a reply without changing the subject to reflect the change in topic of discussion. I will be more careful in the future. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:42:58, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J AD&D is a more complex game. It makes you think and work much harder than OD&D rules. However, If you enjoy roleplaying, and not hack and slash, AD&D is far better. If you have the powergaming attitude for quick battles and more dice and damage, then D&D is for you. In AD&D the battles are longer, therefore more graphic, more roleplaying throughout, and much more realistic. AD&D isn't just about triple class charecters, it's a new variety of characters. . . . such as being a Shaman or a ninja. New races to PC like the lizardmen and ogres. It defines everything more in depth and allows you to understand why everyone acts the way they do. The complete book on Elves shows you how they view the world and other races. All of the Complete Books on _____ are essential to good roleplay. "A ship that sails backwards never sees the sun rise" :) ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:09:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > AD&D is a more complex game. It makes you think and work much harder > than OD&D rules. However, If you enjoy roleplaying, and not hack and > slash, AD&D is far better. I think this is a common misconception. Certainly the AD&D rules are slightly more complex. But nothing in them makes them more amenable to roleplay, in my opinion. And, to tell the truth, I've gotten more feel for and interest in a world via the OD&D-oriented Gazeteers than any of the AD&D game world supplements I've bought. > If you have the powergaming attitude for > quick battles and more dice and damage, then D&D is for you. In AD&D > the battles are longer, therefore more graphic, more roleplaying > throughout, and much more realistic. THe differences between the combat systems are pretty small. You could spend hours arguing about Weapon Mastery vs. Specialization, but when you get right down to it, both games come down to 'roll To Hit vs. Armor Class, and then roll for damage to Hit Points.' And as for making the battles more graphic and giving them more role-playing... well, the difference between the systems seems pretty minor compared to the difference between both of them and, say, _Feng Shui._ > AD&D isn't just about triple > class charecters, it's a new variety of characters. . . . such as > being a Shaman Detailed for OD&D in several places, including (for nonhumans) the Cyclopedia, _The Orcs of Thar,_ and the Creature Crucible supplements, and (for humans) _The Tribes of Atruaghin_ and, I think, _The Golden Khan of Ethengar._ > or a ninja. Never detailed in OD&D, but only because they never actually went into depth on the one place on Mystara that would actually reasonably have them (Ochalea). > New races to PC like the lizardmen The _Hollow World_ boxed set includes them. > and > ogres. Given in _The Orcs of Thar,_ long before any rules for playing them in AD&D came out. > It defines everything more in depth and allows you to > understand why everyone acts the way they do. I'd stack the better Gazeteers up against most AD&D resources any day. > The complete book on Elves shows you how they view the world and > other races. As does _The Elves of Alfheim._ And I think the Shadow Elves are far more interesting and less cliched than drow are... > All of the Complete Books on _____ are essential to > good roleplay. Not necessarily. How much information does _The Complete Book of FIghters_ give you on playing a Mongol Horde-type swordsman? A page or less to handle the kit? Compare that with the information in _The Golden Khan of Ethengar._ And I find that _The Orcs of Thar_ gives me a far better feel for being a humanoid than the _Complete Book of Humanoids_ or whatever it was called for AD&D. - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J I _really_ have to take exception to some of these statements... On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > AD&D is a more complex game. It makes you think and work much harder > than OD&D rules. This is true, it does make person think harder, but only about rules, which many find irritating. > However, If you enjoy roleplaying, and not hack and > slash, AD&D is far better. If you have the powergaming attitude for > quick battles and more dice and damage, then D&D is for you. This is completely false. Roleplaying is a function of people, not systems. If a person wants to roleplay, and the GM supports it, it's going to happen, no matter what game you play. Their is nothing about AD&D that encourages roleplaying more than D&D. Besides, if we want to use dishing damage as some sort of yardstick, AD&D is more likely to attract powergamers. Sure a D&D character will be able to dish out more, but not until high levels. In AD&D a character can do this at first level. Power gamers tend to want instant gratification. > In AD&D > the battles are longer, therefore more graphic, more roleplaying > throughout, and much more realistic. Graphic? What is graphic about AD&D combat, in comparison to D&D? It uses about the same system: roll a d20, compare to THAC0 and AC. If you hit, roll damage. Repeat as necessary. Nothing graphic there. Now, a good GM will use proper narrative to make it graphic, but that has nothing to do with AD&D. And how does longer combat bring out roleplaying? Seems to me a good roleplayer is going to do a good job regardless of combat length. BTW, what, exactly, is realistic about AD&D combat. > AD&D isn't just about triple > class charecters, it's a new variety of characters, such as > being a Shaman or a ninja. But a person can only play such a class if they have the proper expansion, or make it up. And these resources would usually work just as well for D&D. I have the Shaman supplement, and there is little about it that would prevent it from being used in D&D. > New races to PC like the lizardmen and > ogres. D&D has AD&D beat on this one. With the Orcs of Thar Gazetteer, the Hollow World boxed set and the Creature Crucible series, the D&D game has far more non-human races available as PC's, including lizard man and ogre. > It defines everything more in depth and allows you to > understand why everyone acts the way they do. Kinda like the way the Elf, Dwarf, Orc and Halfling Gazetteers do? > The complete book on Elves shows you how they view the world and > other races. Kinda like Elves of Alfheim? > All of the Complete Books on _____ are essential to > good roleplay. Out of everything you said this is the one that inspired me to reply, becasue I feel it is amazingly untrue. I had been gaming for over a decade before such books came out and felt I was doing a fine job of roleplaying. I have looked through them, and although they did have some good stuff in them, I found nothing that I felt was essential. Nothing I needed for good roleplaying. Note that I am not attacking your prefernce of AD&D over D&D. I prefer AD&D as well (though highly modified). I just don't think any of your arguements hold water. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 18:16:20 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J TIMOTHY M DI BONA writes: > > AD&D is a more complex game. It makes you think and work much harder > than OD&D rules. However, If you enjoy roleplaying, and not hack and > slash, AD&D is far better. If you have the powergaming attitude for > quick battles and more dice and damage, then D&D is for you. Well, that depends entirely on the players - I've been in AD&D groups where I was the only person who actually ROLEplayed (as opposed to ROLLplaying). Likewise, my current D&D group consists of PCs with very rich backgrounds, ambitions, relationships, and personalities. In AD&D > the battles are longer, therefore more graphic, more roleplaying > throughout, and much more realistic. This is also up to the DM. D&D also has nonweapon proficiencies, as well as weapon mastery rules. AD&D isn't just about triple > class charecters, it's a new variety of characters. . . . such as > being a Shaman or a ninja. New races to PC like the lizardmen and > ogres. In D&D there are rules for being Lizardmen, Hutaaka, all sorts of humanoids, as well as new classes such as the rake (a daring rogue-type), a magician of various schools (such as witchcraft, elementalism, dracology - - see GAZ3 The principalities of Glantri for more info), the merchant, the sea-wizard, as well as elvish treekeepers, and, of course, mystics and shamans. It defines everything more in depth and allows you to > understand why everyone acts the way they do. > The complete book on Elves shows you how they view the world and > other races. All of the Complete Books on _____ are essential to > good roleplay. Check out the Gazetteer series from D&D - you'll find over 4,000 years of history and perspectives from elves, shadowelves, dwarves, halflings, as well as several human nations. In each one are contained secrets, adventure ideas, as well as how the people of that nation see everyone else. > > "A ship that sails backwards never sees the sun rise" :) > I don't mean to sound rude, but you really should take a second look at the D&D world. And another thing, all this information I've told you about was published years before D&D became merged with the AD&D universe. Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:39:25, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric >>I can use Cleric rules for Elfs??? (in D&D) > >As DM you can do what you like most, but if you sticks to the D&D rules >there aren't Elf-Clerics. On the other hand in Gaz5 (Alfheim) you can found >the Treekeepers, the elvish version of clerics (well, not exactly... ). convert to AD&D and you'll be all set with the elf clerics. Don't be tied down to Alfheim. It's not worth eliminating a class. ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:14:40, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D >I've been in AD&D groupswhere I was the only person who actually ROLEplayed (as opposed to >ROLLplaying). Likewise, my current D&D group consists of PCs with very rich backgrounds, ambitions, >relationships, and personalities. The argument is systems not roleplaying. To clarify what I said earlier, AD&D allows and suggests better roleplaying doesn't create it. It's obvious that no one can give you the ability to roleplay better, but AD&D's rules give more leeway to allow better roleplaying. Just because the elves of Alfheim can't be priests, no elf in Mystara can???? Isn't this a bit rediculous? Now i think i got off the subject. >> In AD&D the battles are longer, therefore more graphic, more roleplaying >> throughout, and much more realistic. >This is also up to the DM. D&D also has nonweapon proficiencies, >as well as weapon mastery rules. which has nothing to do with anything, and everyone knows this. What's your point? >In D&D there are rules for being Lizardmen, Hutaaka, all sorts of >humanoids, look in the humanoid book. Which has more to tell? >a magician of various schools (such as witchcraft, elementalism, dracology >- see GAZ3 The principalities of Glantri for more info), or see Complete Wizard's, or Spells and Magic Book (which goes much further in depth than GAZ3) > the merchant, kit >the sea-wizard, kit > elvish treekeepers Only in Alfheim and still a kit >mystics undetailed class taken out of AD&D for many reasons(not about to start on that). It's easily replacible by the Ninja Handbook. >shamans. ?? hmmmm isn't this an AD&D supplement? >Check out the Gazetteer series from D&D - I have it and I think it's probably the best series that TSR has come up with. However, don't restrict yourself to this. How about different elves from elsewhere on Mystara or on different worlds in the prime plane. Do you really think they can be roleplayed the same as Alfheim elves. Don't act like Elves are an endangered species only existing in Alfheim. >you'll find over 4,000 >years of history and perspectives from elves, shadowelves, dwarves, >halflings, as well as several human nations. which is incredible, but the point isn't just history and perspectives, it holds myths and many other tools to help you out in your roleplaying, and if you don't like it then don't use it. That's why it's optional. > In each one are contained secrets, adventure ideas, as well as how the people of that nation see >everyone else. I know this! > I don't mean to sound rude, but you really should take a second >look at the D&D world. And another thing, all this information I've told >you about was published years before D&D became merged with the AD&D universe. What is this? I don't mean to sound rude either, but it seems like you don't understand the arguement here. What have you read from AD&D's publications?, because it sounds like your POV is from an AD&D ignorant position. I've read the gaz's and use them as well. My campaign is on Mystara. I use Cyclopedia weapon specialization, but everything else is AD&D, with my own original rules added as well. My arguement isn't that AD&D is better than OD&D, just that AD&D's supplements and accessories make for a better game. It's all D&D, but why not consider adding a little spice to the game? ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #130 ***************************** mystara-digest Saturday, 22 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 131 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:37:01, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J > This is true, it does make person think harder, but only about rules, >which many find irritating. Rules are irritating? Most of AD&D opts with optional rules. These are to suggest additions/subtractions to the basic D&D game. AD&D is just an improved D&D altogether. And I really don't see how rules are irritating . . . >Roleplaying is a function of people, not >systems. AD&D doesn't function the roleplay, it gives suggestions to different styles and techniques of fighting. Therefore it my enhance roleplaying >Power gamers tend to want instant gratification. >In AD&D a character can >do this at first level. Can do what? Powergame? The difference here is that not all human fighters are the same guy. If they have practiced the dagger from birth, and that is his only weapon of choice, then of course he will weild it greater than someone who practices four different weapon types. I do however beleive that the weapon specialization in D&D is far greater than AD&D. But still if I've misunderstood your last statement, please clarify what you meant. >And how does longer combat bring out roleplaying? In combat, much can happen, it's not just >roll a d20, compare to THAC0 and AC. If you >hit, roll damage. Repeat as necessary. This is a pefect example of hack and slash. It's not all in the dice. If all combat is 5 or 6 rounds instead of 1 maybe 2 rounds, there is much that can happen. ex: Critical hits - loss of limb or any major injury, Critical errors - loss of balence(weather) or armor loss, also you will have time to roleplay the battle more: "This is for my country" or "Stop! you're a far better swordsman than I". This can't happen in one round of combat. That is why longer combat allows more roleplay. >But a person can only play such a class if they have the proper >expansion exactly, it just happens to read AD&D on the cover > And these resources would usually work just as >well for D&D. AD&D stands for ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons. That is the point. It's just D&D improved. Of course it will work for D&D, but D&D played with AD&D supplements means you are playing AD&D. Doesn't it? >With the Orcs of Thar Gazetteer, the Hollow World boxed set and the Creature Crucible series, the >D&D game has far more non-human races available as PC's, including lizard man and ogre. Take a look in the Complete Book of Huminoids. This shows far more races to roleplay than just lizardman and ogre, and it details the races more in depth . Also, it's only one book. How many were in your list? >>It defines everything more in depth and allows you to >>understand why everyone acts the way they do. >Kinda like the way the Elf, Dwarf, Orc and Halfling Gazetteers do? yes, except these are for the race as a whole. FYI, there are more Dwarves than just the ones in Rockhome. And yes they are different. >Kinda like Elves of Alfheim? Yes, but more detailed and not centered on one country in Mystara. >> All of the Complete Books on _____ are essential to >> good roleplay. >I had been gaming for over a decade before such books came out and felt I was doing a fine job of >roleplaying. and? >I have looked through them, and although they did have some >good stuff in them, I found nothing that I felt was essential. Nothing I >needed for good roleplaying. Really, okay I'll open one of the Complete Books now. It's the Druid one. It tells of the organization of the Druids, it shows the branches, of how there aren't only forest Druids, there are other places of nature than the forest, such as the swamp. These Druids have no reason to be able to polymorph into woodland creatures, instead they may form into swamp/marsh creatures. It also tells of their agriculture, and it heavily defines the Druidic Order. And although I personally don't use them, there are 14 kits, and more suggestions.There's another 22 pages based solely on Roleplaying your Druid better. This doesn't mean you are roleplaying wrong or poorly, just that they are telling you more so you may enhance your roleplaying. It goes further on to tell of new magic and magical items, and tells of sacred groves, but i'm taking up too much space telling you of "nothing essential". >I prefer AD&D as well (though highly modified). like what? (just real curiosity, not an attack) ------------------------------ From: jam@wimsey.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J Timoty & others: Interesting discusion we have going here. I just wanted to comment on one thing: In a previous message TIMOTHY M DI BONA said: > > AD&D stands for ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons. That is the point. > It's just D&D improved. Of course it will work for D&D, but D&D > played with AD&D supplements means you are playing AD&D. > Doesn't it? Actually, from what I've heard, this isn't exactly true. My sources may be wrong, but I've been told that AD&D (1st ed) and the original D&D sprung up when the people who invented the D&D concept split into two groups because some of them moved away from where they all started out. When they got back together to compare their games, they found that each group had made modifications and additions in quite different directions. When they decided to turn it into a product, they kept the one which was deemed to be "closer" to the original, and posibly easier to play for beginners as plain "Dungeons and Dragons" and called the more complex system "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons". So, whereas they both started from the same root, they are really quite different "games" based on evolution. This is sort of like how French and Itallian are languages which evolved from the same language root (latin), but are considerably different. Yes they do have some similarities in voicing, spelling and grammar, but no one would ever say that if you were speaking Itallian if you used French with a few Itallian phrases thrown in... (or vice versa for that matter). Now, I will re-iterate that I don't know if what I've been told in the past is precisely true. However, I've heard this particular story from many divers sources. If anyone (Ann?) knows better or different, please feel free to correct me -- If I'm completely misinformed, I'd like to know. - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield : ............ -=< strawberryJAMM >=- : Black Holes Are Merely jam@wimsey.com : Where God Divided By Zero http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html : ............... ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J > > This is true, it does make person think harder, but only about rules, > >which many find irritating. > Rules are irritating? =20 To some people, yes. There are people who roleplay without any real rule system, and they feel rules are irritating. And some want to think about rules as little as possible, feeling they get in the way of real roleplaying. > AD&D is just an improved D&D altogether. =20 That is an opinion, one which some on this list do not share. > And I really don't see how rules=20 > are irritating . . .=20 That=92s fine, but that is one ma'=92s opinion. Personally, I like to use a rules system, but I prefer one with only a minimum number of rules. Preferably one with one streamlined rule for task resolution, which can be applied to almost all situations. > >Power gamers tend to want instant gratification. In AD&D a character ca= n > >do this at first level. =20 > Can do what? Powergame?=20 Yup. > The difference here is that not all human=20 > fighters are the same guy. =20 And neither are they the same guy in D&D. > If they have practiced the dagger from=20 > birth, and that is his only weapon of choice, then of course he will=20 > weild it greater than someone who practices four different weapon=20 > types. I am not sure what you are trying to say here. =20 > I do however beleive that the weapon specialization in D&D is=20 > far greater than AD&D. But still if I've misunderstood your last=20 > statement, please clarify what you meant. I didn'=92t think it was unlcear. Power gamers want power. And that want it _now_. In D&D a first level fighter is not particularly impressive. One attack, no extra damage, no bonus to hit. But a first level AD&D fighter gets multiple attacks, does more damage and hits more often.=20 If you were a powergamer, which would you rather play? > >And how does longer combat bring out roleplaying?=20 > In combat, much can happen, it's not just... > >roll a d20, compare to THAC0 and AC. If you > >hit, roll damage. Repeat as necessary. > This is a pefect example of hack and slash. It's not all in the dice. True, but it is about all the rules give us, and we are talking rules.= =20 > also you will have time to roleplay the battle more: "This is=20 > for my country" or "Stop! you're a far better swordsman than I". =20 > This can't happen in one round of combat. That is why longer combat=20 > allows more roleplay. It can'=92t?=20 Besides, I don'=92t believe D&D combat is necessarily going to be much shorter, especially if fighting opponents of simialr power. Sure a person can dish out more damage, on the average. But people with Weapon Mastery tend to be harder to hit, with the AC bonuses mastery provides.=20 I have played/GM=92ed both AD&D and D&D, and I didn=92t notice=20 significant difference in combat, either in length or the amount of roleplaying.=20 > >But a person can only play such a class if they have the proper > >expansion > exactly, it just happens to read AD&D on the cover Which, to some of us, means very little. > > And these resources would usually work just as > >well for D&D.=20 > AD&D stands for ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons. That is the point.=20 > It's just D&D improved.=20 Again, this is an opinion not all agree with. > Of course it will work for D&D, but D&D=20 > played with AD&D supplements means you are playing AD&D. > Doesn't it? No, it means your playing D&D with AD&D supplements. Just like someone who plays AD&D with D&D=92s weapon mastery rules is still playing AD&D.=20 >>It defines everything more in depth and allows you to >>understand why everyone acts the way they do. =20 > > >Kinda like the way the Elf, Dwarf, Orc and Halfling Gazetteers do? > yes, except these are for the race as a whole. FYI, there are more=20 > Dwarves than just the ones in Rockhome. And yes they are different. Thanks for sharing that info with us. But what is your point? I won'=92t deny that the Dwarves handbook has good info in it. I never did. I just don'=92t think it is essential, by any means.=20 > >Kinda like Elves of Alfheim? > Yes, but more detailed and not centered on one country in Mystara. Right, but this is the Mystara list. We have been given the infromation we need. The Elf book is going to mean little at this point.= =20 Each Gazetteer has information on the races that dwell there.=20 Now, it is true that D&D, taken as a system, divorced from Mystara, does not have such a book. But does it need it? Why can'=92t a person who is interested pick up the AD&D version? Since much of it is not rules, conversion is unnecessary.=20 > >> All of the Complete Books on _____ are essential to > >> good roleplay. > >I had been gaming for over a decade before such books came out and=20 > felt I was doing a fine job of roleplaying.=20 > and? And what? Seems pretty clear. All these years I have not had access to these books. Was I roleplaying badly? No. It'=92s not like these book= s came along, and Lo and Behold! A renaissance in gaming!=20 Nothing in the book is _essential_. Useful? Sure, for some people.=20 But not all. I own several of the Handbooks (Fighter, Thief, Wizard, Necromancer, Bard, Psionicist), and have read all of them. Nothing in them improved my roleplaying. At this point I am probably about as good a roleplayer as I am ever going to be. > >I have looked through them, and although they did have some > >good stuff in them, I found nothing that I felt was essential. =20 > > Nothing I needed for good roleplaying. > Really, okay I'll open one of the Complete Books now. It's the Druid=20 > one. It tells of the organization of the Druids, it shows the=20 > branches, of how there aren't only forest Druids, there are other=20 > places of nature than the forest, such as the swamp. These Druids=20 > have no reason to be able to polymorph into woodland creatures,=20 > instead they may form into swamp/marsh creatures. It also tells of=20 > their agriculture, and it heavily defines the Druidic Order. And=20 > although I personally don't use them, there are 14 kits, and more=20 > suggestions.There's another 22 pages based solely on Roleplaying your=20 > Druid better. This doesn't mean you are roleplaying wrong or poorly,=20 > just that they are telling you more so you may enhance your=20 > roleplaying. =20 And, some people will read it and do a better job of roleplaying.=20 Some, though, will read it and find nothing new, nothing they didn'=92t learn through years of experience. Also, some people will have already come up with their own structure and background for such things. > It goes further on to tell of new magic and magical=20 > items, and tells of sacred groves, but i'm taking up too much space=20 > telling you of "nothing essential".=20 You put "nothing essential=94 in quotes, like you have proven a point.= =20 But you haven=92t. Nothing you listed is _essential_. Is it useful for those who don'=92t already have such info? Of course. My point was never to bash the Handbooks, saying they are useless. What I am saying is that they are not a required resource for gooding roleplaying.=20 > >I prefer AD&D as well (though highly modified). > like what? (just real curiosity, not an attack) Well, a small list... No more individual charts for every stat. All stats use the same bonus/penalty chart (the one used in D&D)=20 To hit bonuses based on Dex, not Strength Learning spells based on Int check Moving damn near every roll to a d20 No Ressurection Survival rolls No Max Number of Henchmen silliness New Stat: Perception No racial level limits New skill system New saving throw system New spell system, combining point system from Spells & Magic, the Paths of Power Article from Dragon, modified with a few of my own rules.=20 No clerics, only specialist priests Paladins have access to spheres their gods grant their priests major access to.=20 Rangers spell access sameas Paladin, but have the option of becoming minor Shamans instead (ala the Shaman supplement)=20 No max spells per level.=20 All experience point tables divided by 100 (i.e a fighter needs 25 points to go to second level)=20 XP awarded has nothing to do with monsters. It=92s all determined by me.=20 Elves lose sword/bow and surprise bonus, as well as secret door thing (but they do get a +1 to Perception which is used to find secret doors).=20 All halflings have 10 yard Infravision Dwarves, Elves, and Gnomes have 30 yard Infravision Mystara and all the AD&D worlds I use (FR, GH, BR, DL) are part of the AD&D multiverse, which includes Planescape and Spelljammer (Not really a rules thing, but a GM meta-game decision).=20 Fighters have access to a second level of specialization.=20 Plus there are probably more I can=92t recall off the top of my head.= =20 =09 =09=09 Leroy Van Camp III =09 owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- =09=09=09=09 MST3K ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:15:22, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J >> AD&D stands for ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons. That is the point. >> It's just D&D improved. Of course it will work for D&D, but D&D >> played with AD&D supplements means you are playing AD&D. From ???@??? Mon Jun 24 08:48:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA19253; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:29:48 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA09359 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:10:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:10:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199606220610.BAA09359@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #131 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: cf495b2451bff1ca0c5f750a508c9771 >> Doesn't it? > Actually, from what I've heard, this isn't exactly true. That's really interesting. Then what is it called if you use supplements, and rules from both systems? Is it A&O D&D? ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:52:20 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5FC8.FC343B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I find unable to stop myself from responding. I have been a DM for about twenty years now and have played EVERY version of D&D. As a matter of personal choice I like the D&D over AD&D for several reasons. First, it is much more flexible than AD&D which are aimed at a common and specific set of ideas, where D&D encourages the development of your own ideas. This is especially true of classes which, despite your assertions below, give a level of freedom to develop that I have yet to see in AD&D. Now, to address your statements below, - ---------- From: TIMOTHY M DI BONA[SMTP:MRRU13A@prodigy.com] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 1996 7:00 PM To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D The argument is systems not roleplaying. To clarify what I said earlier, AD&D allows and suggests better roleplaying doesn't create it. How does AD&D suggest better role playing than D&D? By defining everything so that little is left to the individual? It's obvious that no one can give you the ability to roleplay better, but AD&D's rules give more leeway to allow better roleplaying. Again, how is this done? Just because the elves of Alfheim can't be priests, no elf in Mystara can???? First, there is no place in the Rules Cyclopedia where it says that elves may not be clerics. Second, the gazeteer for Alfheim is specifically for Alfheim and nowhere else. There is no reason to believe that elves in Karameikos may not worship Ilsundal under the aegis of the Church of Karameikos (for example). Isn't this a bit rediculous? Now i think i got off the subject. Yes, it is. >In D&D there are rules for being Lizardmen, Hutaaka, all sorts of >humanoids, look in the humanoid book. Which has more to tell? Depends upon your point of view. If your are looking for an example of a society dominated by humanoids, I recommend the Orcs of Thar. In general terms the rules for creating classes in D&D are so simple that it takes very little work to invent a class. >a magician of various schools (such as witchcraft, elementalism, dracology >- see GAZ3 The principalities of Glantri for more info), or see Complete Wizard's, or Spells and Magic Book (which goes much further in depth than GAZ3) You miss the point. The specialist classes in GAZ3 are far more interesting, colorful, and powerful than those in the Complete Wizard's Handbook, or in the Spells and Magic Book. Additionally, the spell research rules in AD&D are complete garbage, designed to make it unplayable; where the rule in D&D are at least simple enough to allow one to play a mage who researches spells. Now, none of the research systems of D&D or AD&D are worth much (I have designed my own which works well within either system). > the merchant, kit kit is not a real response. Additionally, how can you compare a kit to an entirely new class with a new method of gaining experience, and a set of special powers? >the sea-wizard, kit Here we are talking about the the Merchant Prince from Minrothad. Again far more colorful than any kit. > elvish treekeepers Only in Alfheim and still a kit Now you are being childish. It is obviously not ONLY in Alfheim as there IS no Alfheim, those elves migrated to Karameikos and Wendar. They took cuttings of the trees with them and planted them. You will also note that all demi-humans possess a clan relic, those specified are for the elf, dwarf, and halfling; and even then there is room for change (note the alternate clan relic in the Minrothad Guilds). A Treekeeper is a keeper of a Tree of Life, which is at the heart (spiritually) of EVERY elf-clan. It is, therefore, not unreasonable to assume that such exists within each and every clan. >mystics undetailed class taken out of AD&D for many reasons(not about to start on that). It's easily replacible by the Ninja Handbook. Allow me to start on that. The rules for the mystic are crap. I have taken the original idea and the original description to create monastic orders for each of the major religions. These Mystics are true mystics, not simply martial artists. I took the basic class and instead of unarmed combat gave them something else (whatever seemed appropriate for the religion), and I reviewed the powers gained and changed them where it was appropriate. >shamans. ?? hmmmm isn't this an AD&D supplement? Shamans are detailed in The Ethengar Khanates. Other types of Shaman were first detailed in their true and aweful glory in the Orcs of Thar. >Check out the Gazetteer series from D&D - I have it and I think it's probably the best series that TSR has come up with. However, don't restrict yourself to this. How about different elves from elsewhere on Mystara or on different worlds in the prime plane. TSR stopped the line before such could be developed. There is no reason that you could not develop entirely new types of elves (see the Hollow World for examples). Do you really think they can be roleplayed the same as Alfheim elves. The Elves of Alheim are clearly not the only ones. The Belcadiz in Glantri are nothing at all like the elves of Alfheim (for only one example of this). Don't act like Elves are an endangered species only existing in Alfheim. They are! >you'll find over 4,000 >years of history and perspectives from elves, shadowelves, dwarves, >halflings, as well as several human nations. which is incredible, but the point isn't just history and perspectives, it holds myths and many other tools to help you out in your roleplaying, and if you don't like it then don't use it. That's why it's optional. Exactly. > I don't mean to sound rude, but you really should take a second >look at the D&D world. And another thing, all this information I've told >you about was published years before D&D became merged with the AD&D universe. What is this? I don't mean to sound rude either, but it seems like you don't understand the arguement here. What have you read from AD&D's publications?, because it sounds like your POV is from an AD&D ignorant position. The previous poster is exactly right. Mystara existed long before AD&D took it over. I've read the gaz's and use them as well. My campaign is on Mystara. I use Cyclopedia weapon specialization, but everything else is AD&D, with my own original rules added as well. My arguement isn't that AD&D is better than OD&D, just that AD&D's supplements and accessories make for a better game. It's all D&D, but why not consider adding a little spice to the game? I use two AD&D supplements, I use Arduin, and many other additional sources for other "stuff". The AD&D stuff I use are: The Complete Psionist and Al-Qadim. 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I have taken the original idea and the > original description to create monastic orders for each of the major religions. > These Mystics are true mystics, not simply martial artists. I took the basic > class and instead of unarmed combat gave them something else (whatever > seemed appropriate for the religion), and I reviewed the powers gained and > changed them where it was appropriate. Is is possible for you to post those rules? I will be very interested to see them. BTW, I totally agree with you sentiment of the mystic's rule. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named Anne On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Joe Duke wrote: > Hey folks! > I am currently running a D&D campaign in Mystara. I was > disappointed with TSR's change inthe AD&D system of past, so opted a D&D > cmapaing. Now I see more and more people liking the "new" AD&D and was > wondering how it was. I have not played the "new" one since it first > came out. Is it worth me getting the stuff to convert over to AD&D? > What classes are restricted to/from Mystara if any? How does the "new" > AD&D stuff fit in with the "D&D feel" of Mystara? Just looking for a bit of clarification before I reply... by "new" do you mean 2nd Edition, or the new Players Options books (Skills and Powers, Spells and Magic, etc.) Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #131 ***************************** From ???@??? Mon Jun 24 08:48:35 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA25587; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:36:47 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA10236 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:27:04 -0500 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:27:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199606221027.FAA10236@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #132 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 55992e34273d35abaa8620a481770960 mystara-digest Saturday, 22 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 132 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Johnson Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:32:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > >I've been in AD&D groupswhere I was the only person who actually > ROLEplayed (as opposed to > >ROLLplaying). Likewise, my current D&D group consists of PCs with > very rich backgrounds, ambitions, >relationships, and personalities. > > The argument is systems not roleplaying. To clarify what I said > earlier, AD&D allows and suggests better roleplaying doesn't create > it. It's obvious that no one can give you the ability to roleplay > better, but AD&D's rules give more leeway to allow better roleplaying. > Just because the elves of Alfheim can't be priests, no elf in > Mystara can???? Isn't this a bit rediculous? Now i think i got off > the subject. Actually, first off, I think having Treekeepers is a bit more interesting than just having elves with a generic cleric class tacked on. And certainly there are rules for other types of elves - IIRC, there are rules for shamans among the Icevale Elves of the Hollow World, and there might be rules for variant elf priestly-types in _The Minrothad Guilds,_ when detailing the aquatic elf species there. (I don't have the supplement in front of me.) Not to mention the Shamans of the Shadow Elves... Basically, there are elven priests, but they're usually highly tied to their culture. You can play an elven priest. You just can't play a _generic_ elven priest, which I sort of see as being a good thing. > > >> In AD&D the battles are longer, therefore more graphic, more > roleplaying > >> throughout, and much more realistic. > > >This is also up to the DM. D&D also has nonweapon proficiencies, > >as well as weapon mastery rules. > > which has nothing to do with anything, and everyone knows this. > What's your point? > What's yours? Name the specific mechanics in AD&D that make their fights more dramatic and exciting. > >In D&D there are rules for being Lizardmen, Hutaaka, all sorts of > >humanoids, > > look in the humanoid book. Which has more to tell? Well, I've read through a lot of the AD&D Humanoid's book, and, after due consideration, I'd have to say I really prefer _The Orcs of Thar_ and the Creature Crucible series. The AD&D book tries to describe a vast array of nonhuman races, and ends up doing so rather blandly, as far as I saw. The OD&D supplements focus on a specific array of nonhumans in each, and give a vivid feel of what it's like to be an orc, or a skygnome, or the like. > > > the merchant, > kit Okay, what kit in AD&D lets you play a fighter, cleric, rogue, or even mage who gains a certain limited array of merchant-oriented magic spells based on how much success they have in their trading? > > >the sea-wizard, > kit See above. > > > elvish treekeepers > Only in Alfheim and still a kit Or in any other area with a Tree of Life, including the post-Wrath colonies formed in Aengmor's wake. > > >shamans. > ?? hmmmm isn't this an AD&D supplement? Yes, but OD&D also has a wide variety of shamans who are actually _worked into the setting specifically._ Ethengar shamans are different from Atruaghin shamans who are different from Broken Lands shamans who are different from Shadow Elven shamans. If the Shamans supplement for AD&D follows the pattern I've seen in many AD&D supplements, it talks a fair bit about shamans in general, but relatively little about how they fit into specific AD&D cultures. And it provides generic mechanics for them that make shamans from various cultures suspiciously similar to each other. > > >Check out the Gazetteer series from D&D - > > I have it and I think it's probably the best series that TSR has come > up with. However, don't restrict yourself to this. How about > different elves from elsewhere on Mystara or on different worlds in > the prime plane. Do you really think they can be roleplayed the same > as Alfheim elves. Don't act like Elves are an endangered species > only existing in Alfheim. You must be overlooking, among other things, _The Principalities of Glantri_ (Belcadiz and Erewon elves), _The Shadow Elves_ (a subterranian elf culture more sympathetic and yet possibly more dangerous than drow), _The Minrothad Guilds_ (two clans of seagoing elves), _The Sea People_ (more, different aquatic elves), and the Hollow World boxed set (Icevale elves, Blacklore elves, the Gentle Folk, etc...) Elves are hardly an endangered species on Mystara, and the Gazetteers reflect that. > > > >you'll find over 4,000 > >years of history and perspectives from elves, shadowelves, dwarves, > >halflings, as well as several human nations. > > which is incredible, but the point isn't just history and > perspectives, it holds myths and many other tools to help you out in > your roleplaying, and if you don't like it then don't use it. That's > why it's optional. > Er, yes. How is this a point against OD&D? > > I don't mean to sound rude, but you really should take a second > >look at the D&D world. And another thing, all this information I've > told > >you about was published years before D&D became merged with the AD&D > universe. > > What is this? I don't mean to sound rude either, but it seems like > you don't understand the arguement here. What have you read from > AD&D's publications?, because it sounds like your POV is from an AD&D > ignorant position. > > I've read the gaz's and use them as well. My campaign is on Mystara. > I use Cyclopedia weapon specialization, but everything else is AD&D, > with my own original rules added as well. My arguement isn't that > AD&D is better than OD&D, just that AD&D's supplements and > accessories make for a better game. It's all D&D, but why not > consider adding a little spice to the game? Okay, I will. Let's see, maybe they can be met by a Hin Master when wandering the wilds of the Five Shires... and then have them take an Alphatian Skyship to Serraine to meet a clan of faenarae and their windsingers... then I might have the figher turned into a werefox... and have the mage inducted into the secret society of rune-masters in Glantri, and have him learn something of the secret magical uses of the Radiance... then I'll take them to the Hollow World to meet the Beastmen and the Blacklore Elves... and give them hints about the path to Immortality... It seems to me that going to AD&D would require either making a huge number of rules conversions (how well does Spelljammer deal with airships that don't sail between planets and don't need spelljamming helms to go? And what are the rules for a PC werefox in AD&D?) or blanding down ('Hin Master? Oh, yeah, that's a druid kit. It has the halfling druid level limits, and it gets a couple of extra benefits and penalties. Nothing special. Oh, yeah, and Windsinger's a cleric kit for faenarae. What's so odd about them?'). Really, I think that by purely forsaking OD&D for AD&D, you might be missing more than you think. I might look at some of the AD&D Handbooks for a longer but less specific look into, say, how a shaman thinks, but for ones fully integrated into their setting, I'd look to OD&D. Scott Johnson, who still thinks neither game has anything on _Feng Shui_ for dramatic, roleplaying-intensive combats. ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 00:03 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J Timothy: >>> AD&D stands for ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons. That is the point. >>> It's just D&D improved. Of course it will work for D&D, but D&D >>> played with AD&D supplements means you are playing AD&D. >>> Doesn't it? > >> Actually, from what I've heard, this isn't exactly true. > >That's really interesting. Then what is it called if you use >supplements, and rules from both systems? Is it A&O D&D? Call it whatever you like. What is important is that you are playing a Fantasy Role Playing Game that you like, with rules you and your players are happy with. Who cares what its called -- "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons", "Original Dungeons and Dragons", "Amalgamated Dungeons and Dragons", or just plain-old un-adjectived "Dungeons and Dragons". The point is, do it *your* way and have FUN!!! - -=< strawberryJAMM >=--- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 00:03 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D I have to agree with Leroy on this point: > Besides, I don'=92t believe D&D combat is necessarily going to be mu= ch >shorter, especially if fighting opponents of simialr power. Sure a pers= on >can dish out more damage, on the average. But people with Weapon Master= y >tend to be harder to hit, with the AC bonuses mastery provides.=20 > I have played/GM=92ed both AD&D and D&D, and I didn=92t notice=20 >significant difference in combat, either in length or the amount of >roleplaying.=20 Why just two week ago I was involved in an OD&D game (as a player) wher= e we got into a fight that lasted somewhere around 10 rounds. That's just under two minutes. And there was lots of Role Playing going on, because there were characters who were down, and there were characters who were trying to help, and there were characters who were fighting. I'll admit it is one of the longest battles we've had. However, I've played in AD&D= =20 campagins, and even some other RPG's, where the fighting was no faster (or slower) on average than the OD&D games I play now. As a side comment, have you ever been in a real live fight? I was once (it wasn't my idea, but its hard to negotiate with someone who is really=20 trying to hit you!) and it lasted just over a minute before our oponents ran off because they thought they'd hurt me and my friends enough. Even=20 though it was just a fist fight, I was quite hurt, and so were my friends. If there had been weapons involved -- I don't even want to think about it. I've also seen "tourneys" with the Society For Creative Anachronism (wher= e men and women dress up in medieval style armour and have fights with=20 specially designed fake swords made of padded wood). Their fights often=20 last no more than four or five attacks between combatants, unless both=20 parties are VERY good. So "long" drawn out combats could actually be see= n=20 as less reallistic at low (i.e., beginner) levels. Truthfully, "Roleplaying" really has nothing to do with rules. In fact= =20 there are RPGs out there which have no rules for combat or anything else.= =20 Roleplaying is a matter of using your immagination to dyanmically create = a=20 story among several people with DM/GM leading the plot. The roleplaying = of=20 a campaign is only as good as the people who are playing the characters i= n=20 that campaign. If they want to Roleplay, then irrespective of the rules=20 being used, Roleplaying will occur. If the players don't want to Rolepla= y,=20 then all the rules in the world aren't going to make them. Both AD&D and D&D are interesting and useful RPGs for basing any campai= gn on. Its up to the DM/GM and the players to take either beyond the rules = that are suggested and turn the game marketed by TSR into a game of their own. If you prefer using AD&D rules as the core of your game's rules, then do = so. If you perefer OD&D rules, use them. And if you want to amalgamate both = of those, not to mention the ideas and concepts from any number of other FRP= G's,=20 by all means go ahead and do so. Its up to you. =20 (Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now....) - -=3D< strawberryJAMM >=3D--- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <=3D=3D> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <=3D=3D> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html=20 <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Scott Johnson wrote: [a lot of stuff I generally agree with snipped] > > >shamans. > > ?? hmmmm isn't this an AD&D supplement? > > Yes, but OD&D also has a wide variety of shamans who are actually _worked > into the setting specifically._ Ethengar shamans are different from > Atruaghin shamans who are different from Broken Lands shamans who are > different from Shadow Elven shamans. If the Shamans supplement for AD&D > follows the pattern I've seen in many AD&D supplements, it talks a fair > bit about shamans in general, but relatively little about how they fit > into specific AD&D cultures. And it provides generic mechanics for them > that make shamans from various cultures suspiciously similar to each other. I have to jump in and defend Shaman, since it is one of the best AD&D products I bought in '95. While it is true that a Shaman in one culture is going to bear certain similarities to one in another. this seems like a minor point. After all, you could say the same of all the other classes. The rules for a fighter from Thyatis aren't going to be any different than those of a Glantrian fighter. And, the Shaman class itself is very diffrerent than any of the other classes. Although the Shamans of Ethengar are fairly unique, most of the shamans you point out are simply cleric variants. The key to variety is characterization. > It seems to me that going to AD&D would require either making a huge > number of rules conversions As a person who plays Mystara with AD&D, I can safely say that the actual amount of work is minimal. The biggest chunk so far has been designing specialty priests for the various Immortals. (how well does Spelljammer deal with airships > that don't sail between planets and don't need spelljamming helms to go? I am not sure what you mean by "deal with". Spelljammer wasn't designed to cover such ships; that wasn't the point. If the situation came up I would probably wing it, using SJ and Champions of Mystara as a reference. Most likely I would give the Alphatian ships SJ stats and use the SJ system for space combat to duke it out, keeping the terrestial setting in mind. This is a case where specifics aren't really important; as long as I can approximate one thing's info into another's system, i can make it work. > And what are the rules for a PC werefox in AD&D?) Actually, the rules in Night Howlers would convert over to AD&D fairly From ???@??? Mon Jun 24 08:48:35 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA25587; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:36:47 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA10236 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:27:04 -0500 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:27:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199606221027.FAA10236@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #132 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 55992e34273d35abaa8620a481770960 easily. I would just use 'em, making the minor adjustments necessary. > or blanding down ('Hin > Master? Oh, yeah, that's a druid kit. It has the halfling druid level > limits, and it gets a couple of extra benefits and penalties. Nothing > special. Well, I am neutral on this, since I don't have Masters in my Mystara, And I don't call them Hin (Arrggh!! I hate the word! Sorry, pet peeve, just ignore me.) But, in general, I wouldn't convert it in such a manner. I would probably use it as written, with the adjustments made as necessary. > Oh, yeah, and Windsinger's a cleric kit for faenarae. What's > so odd about them?'). I don't have Top Ballista (tha'ts the source, right?), so I can't comment. > Really, I think that by purely forsaking OD&D for > AD&D, you might be missing more than you think. Not really. I think you are in a "One or the other" frame of mind. I do a lot of mixing. For example, take the Secret Crafts of Glantri. When I decided to play Mystara with AD&D, I didn't convert them to a kit or class or specialist. I simply looked them over, tinkered with whatever parts needed altered to fit AD&D's level of power, and that was that. Essentially the same system. That's how I do most of it. > I might look at some of > the AD&D Handbooks for a longer but less specific look into, say, how a > shaman thinks, but for ones fully integrated into their setting, I'd > look to OD&D. Agreed. I would rather have setting specific info than a generic overview. Or, make it up myself. > Scott Johnson, who still thinks neither game has anything on _Feng Shui_ > for dramatic, roleplaying-intensive combats. The best roleplaying I have seen in combat has been in GURPS, played by some people who really know the system. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:30:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric One of Bruce Heard's _Princess Ark_ adventures in Dragon magazine actually included rules for Elf Clerics. Essentially, they used the same XP table, hit dice, and saves as other Elves but had Clerical rather than Mage spells and the ability to turn undead. Their racial advantages were countered by their much steeper XP requirements. For anyone playing D&D (vice AD&D), this would seem to be a workable approach. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:11:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J One more point: If you compare the 1st and 2nd edition AD&D rules with the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, it is obvious that the D&D Rules Cyclopedia influenced the development of 2nd edition AD&D. Take as one obvious example the higher level limits in the 2nd edition -- that is what made the conversion of Mystara to AD&D possible. As many problems as there were with the conversion of Mystara to 2nd edition AD&D, the conversion would not have worked at all if AD&D was still using the ridiculously low 1st edition level limits. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jun 22 09:04:08 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 22 Jun 96 05:04 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA09878 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:37:12 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA09850 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:32:39 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA14759 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:30:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA04943 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:30:51 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:30:51 -0400 Message-ID: <960622043050_335995619@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric Content-Length: 419 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com One of Bruce Heard's _Princess Ark_ adventures in Dragon magazine actually included rules for Elf Clerics. Essentially, they used the same XP table, hit dice, and saves as other Elves but had Clerical rather than Mage spells and the ability to turn undead. Their racial advantages were countered by their much steeper XP requirements. For anyone playing D&D (vice AD&D), this would seem to be a workable approach. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:11:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J In a message dated 96-06-21 23:10:38 EDT, jam@wimsey.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) writes: << Actually, from what I've heard, this isn't exactly true. My sources may be wrong, but I've been told that AD&D (1st ed) and the original D&D sprung up when the people who invented the D&D concept split into two groups because some of them moved away from where they all started out. When they got back together to compare their games, they found that each group had made modifications and additions in quite different directions. When they decided to turn it into a product, they kept the one which was deemed to be "closer" to the original, and posibly easier to play for beginners as plain "Dungeons and Dragons" and called the more complex system "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons". >> Since I am familiar with the original D&D as well as 1st edition AD&D and the line that started out as the Basic/Expert/etc. line and eventually became the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, I can state that the preceding account is nonsense. 1st edition AD&D is actually a slight modification of the original D&D combined with such supplements as "Greyhawk" and "Blackmoor". The newer "D&D" line was originally designed as a simplification of the original D&D but grew more complex as additional boxed sets were added to take play up to level 36 -- and it became even more complex than AD&D when TSR started the "Gazetteer" line. But TSR was definitely behind both efforts, and that fact is what most likely doomed the "D&D" line. TSR saw "D&D" as an introductory line that was never intended to compete with AD&D. However, when they realized how the D&D line had grown to the point of competing with AD&D, they killed "D&D" and converted Mystara over to AD&D. The ultimate results of that decision are all too well know to the members of this list. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, strawberryJAMM wrote: > > Why just two week ago I was involved in an OD&D game (as a player) where > we got into a fight that lasted somewhere around 10 rounds. That's just > under two minutes. And there was lots of Role Playing going on, because > there were characters who were down, and there were characters who were > trying to help, and there were characters who were fighting. I'll admit > it is one of the longest battles we've had. I was once involved in a 20+ round fight in OD&D. This was some time back, and we were all playing high level characters, 25+ level. Our foes were two other adventuring companies, a small red dragon and a group of Illithids, who were attacking from an Alphatian skyship above us. There was a lot of roleplaying, mostly springing from the tension; there was a good chance we were all going to die. > However, I've played in AD&D > campagins, and even some other RPG's, where the fighting was no faster > (or slower) on average than the OD&D games I play now. Some game systems do have combat rules that take a long time to resolves. Rolemaster is a good example. So is GURPS with a lot of combatants involved. > As a side comment, have you ever been in a real live fight? Unfortunately, I have been in a large of number of them. (An unfortunate fact of life for youth is Southern California. Sure glad I ended up moving to Idaho.) > I was once > (it wasn't my idea, but its hard to negotiate with someone who is really > trying to hit you!) and it lasted just over a minute before our oponents > ran off because they thought they'd hurt me and my friends enough. Sounds long. Most one on one fights I have been in have lasted less than 20 seconds. This isn't bragging, it's just how things are. Even > though it was just a fist fight, I was quite hurt, and so were my friends. > If there had been weapons involved -- I don't even want to think about it. Yeah, there really isn't an up side to being stabbed. > Truthfully, "Roleplaying" really has nothing to do with rules. In fact > there are RPGs out there which have no rules for combat or anything else. > Roleplaying is a matter of using your immagination to dyanmically create a > story among several people with DM/GM leading the plot. The roleplaying of > a campaign is only as good as the people who are playing the characters in > that campaign. If they want to Roleplay, then irrespective of the rules > being used, Roleplaying will occur. If the players don't want to Roleplay, > then all the rules in the world aren't going to make them. Well said. This was my point all along. I have been in a lot of arguements on the net over this concept. I have warred with people trying to tell me the Storyteller games (Vampire, Mage, Wraith, etc) allow for better roleplaying. Not long ago people were trying to tell me GURPS somehow allows for better roleplaying. It's just silly, IMHO. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do I know what do I know? (I), never look back never look back (no). Stick it in me stick it in me (I), what do I see what do I see? (now)" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (A Higher Form of) Killing ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jun 22 09:36:28 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 22 Jun 96 05:36 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA10032 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:23:46 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA09964 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:14:32 -0500 Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA15727 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:11:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA01355 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:11:55 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:11:55 -0400 Message-ID: <960622051151_561640893@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J Content-Length: 529 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com One more point: If you compare the 1st and 2nd edition AD&D rules with the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, it is obvious that the D&D Rules Cyclopedia influenced the development of 2nd edition AD&D. Take as one obvious example the higher level limits in the 2nd edition -- that is what made the conversion of Mystara to AD&D possible. As many problems as there were with the conversion of Mystara to 2nd edition AD&D, the conversion would not have worked at all if AD&D was still using the ridiculously low 1st edition level limits. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jun 22 09:55:12 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 22 Jun 96 05:55 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA10037 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:24:02 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA09963 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:14:30 -0500 Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA15726 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:11:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA28028 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:11:14 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:11:14 -0400 Message-ID: <960622051110_561640892@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J Content-Length: 1839 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-21 23:10:38 EDT, jam@wimsey.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) writes: << Actually, from what I've heard, this isn't exactly true. My sources may be wrong, but I've been told that AD&D (1st ed) and the original D&D sprung up when the people who invented the D&D concept split into two groups because some of them moved away from where they all started out. When they got back together to compare their games, they found that each group had made modifications and additions in quite different directions. When they decided to turn it into a product, they kept the one which was deemed to be "closer" to the original, and posibly easier to play for beginners as plain "Dungeons and Dragons" and called the more complex system "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons". >> Since I am familiar with the original D&D as well as 1st edition AD&D and the line that started out as the Basic/Expert/etc. line and eventually became the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, I can state that the preceding account is nonsense. 1st edition AD&D is actually a slight modification of the original D&D combined with such supplements as "Greyhawk" and "Blackmoor". The newer "D&D" line was originally designed as a simplification of the original D&D but grew more complex as additional boxed sets were added to take play up to level 36 -- and it became even more complex than AD&D when TSR started the "Gazetteer" line. But TSR was definitely behind both efforts, and that fact is what most likely doomed the "D&D" line. TSR saw "D&D" as an introductory line that was never intended to compete with AD&D. However, when they realized how the D&D line had grown to the point of competing with AD&D, they killed "D&D" and converted Mystara over to AD&D. The ultimate results of that decision are all too well know to the members of this list. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #132 ***************************** From ???@??? Mon Jun 24 08:50:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA00008; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:02:34 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA14935 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:44:14 -0500 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:44:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199606231144.GAA14935@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #133 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 9275bf1277d373c916387ede509b69e5 mystara-digest Sunday, 23 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 133 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Duke Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:23:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named Anne Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >Just looking for a bit of clarification before I reply... by "new" do >youmean 2nd Edition, or the new Players Options books (Skills ndPowers, >Spells and Magic, etc.) Yes I do. Exactly. I know about the various Ecnylopeadia Magicas, that's ok. I meant all the options, fighter's books, etcetcetc... What is available in Mystara? (other than my own imagination, I mean "rules" available, though I know that poses no real restricitons) I mean what is TSR allowing in Mystara? All of 2cd Ed. or just the "normnal" things from 2ed. (i.e. nothing from Forgotten Relams, Dragonlance, etc..) ok....thanks again Joe ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:01:40, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J >> And I really don't see how rules=20 >> are irritating . . .=20 > That=92s fine, but that is one ma'=92s opinion. Personally, I like to >use a rules system, but I prefer one with only a minimum number of rules. >Preferably one with one streamlined rule for task resolution, which can be >applied to almost all situations. That is an opinion, one which some on this list do not share. >> The difference here is that not all human=20 >> fighters are the same guy. =20 And neither are they the same guy in D&D. > Power gamers want power. And that want it _now_. In D&D a first >level fighter is not particularly impressive. One attack, no extra >damage, no bonus to hit. but i thought : >>> The difference here is that not all human=20 >>> fighters are the same guy. =20 >And neither are they the same guy in D&D so you are saying that statistic wise, all human fighters in D&D are the same? > But a first level AD&D fighter gets multiple >attacks, does more damage and hits more often. not true in the least. You may obtain the (+1) to hit and damage, but this is at the cost of a weapon slot > If they have practiced the dagger from > birth, and that is his only weapon of choice, then of course he will > weild it greater than someone who practices four different weapon > types. Let me clarify what this means. If a character like the one i just described had no weapon, and entered a town that didn't sell daggers, he's in trouble. Other fighters with multiple weapons on their specialization could manage to buy another weapon and suffer no hinderence. This is where your first level fighter becomes a variable. > If you were a powergamer, which would you rather play? I'm not so I wouldn't know. Which would you play? >>>And how does longer combat bring out roleplaying?=20 >> In combat, much can happen, it's not just... >>>roll a d20, compare to THAC0 and AC. If you >>>hit, roll damage. Repeat as necessary. >>>like you said earlier >> This is a pefect example of hack and slash. It's not all in the dice. >True, but it is about all the rules give us, and we are talking rules. You don't have to answer to every rule in the game. If you want to adapt an AD&D rule go ahead >> also you will have time to roleplay the battle more: "This is=20 >> for my country" or "Stop! you're a far better swordsman than I". =20 >> This can't happen in one round of combat. That is why longer combat=20 >> allows more roleplay. > It can't? NO not in one round >]especially if fighting opponents of simialr power. Sure a person >can dish out more damage, on the average. But people with Weapon Mastery >tend to be harder to hit, with the AC bonuses mastery provides The to hit bonus exceeds the AC bonus > I have played/GM=92ed both AD&D and D&D, and so have I >and I didn=92t notice=20 significant difference in combat, either in length or the amount of >roleplaying.=20 there is a difference > >>But a person can only play such a class if they have the proper >>>expansion >> exactly, it just happens to read AD&D on the cover > Which, to some of us, means very little. including me > Of course it will work for D&D, but D&D=20 > played with AD&D supplements means you are playing AD&D. > Doesn't it? No, it means your playing D&D with AD&D supplements. Just like someone who plays AD&D with D&D=92s weapon mastery rules is still playing AD&D.=20 The point is that it doesnt' matter what you call it, both systems have good/bad points. Maybe you should just take both games and choose the rules you enjoy the most. I've played D&D and AD&D and felt restricted in certain areas, so i ended up accepting some rules from each system, so now i love all the rules I use. Maybe you should try it out. Look at the new AD&D books and see if they can be integrated into your campaign. It might work for you. >>>It defines everything more in depth and allows you to >>>understand why everyone acts the way they do. >> > >Kinda like the way the Elf, Dwarf, Orc and Halfling Gazetteers do? >> yes, except these are for the race as a whole. FYI, there are more=20 >> Dwarves than just the ones in Rockhome. And yes they are different. >Thanks for sharing that info with us. But what is your point? > I won'=92t deny that the Dwarves handbook has good info in it. I never >did. I just don't think it is essential, by any means.=20 Okay than can you admit it is very helpful in the least? >> >Kinda like Elves of Alfheim? > >Yes, but more detailed and not centered on one country in Mystara. >Right, but this is the Mystara list. We have been given the >infromation we need. The Elf book is going to mean little at this point.= Mystara is not the Known World. The known World is what TSR gives you to start off your campaigns on Mystara. It's all structured out perfectly so you may have limitless adventures. Now look at a map of Mystara. . . . . ok first off the Known World covers a small portion of Brun. Now you are telling me that it is impossible for there to be any Elves in Davania, Skothar, or anyy other region??? Come on now. The rest of Mystara, IMO, is for the DM to work with. Mapping out the rest of the world, and createing other empires that strive there. Now would these creatures see the world as the Elves of Alfheim would??? The Gaz is perfect for Alfheim, but how about the rest of the world? >Each Gazetteer has information on the races that dwell there.=20 > Now, it is true that D&D, taken as a system, divorced from Mystara, >does not have such a book. But does it need it? Why can'=92t a person who >is interested pick up the AD&D version? Since much of it is not rules, >conversion is unnecessary.=20 Fine. Don't convert, just pick up the book and covert it into your system > And what? Seems pretty clear. All these years I have not had access >to these books. Was I roleplaying badly? how am i supposed to know? > and I have read all of them. Nothing in >them improved my roleplaying. At this point I am probably about as good a >roleplayer as I am ever going to be. that's too bad. Actually I think that anyone can improve their roleplaying, but if you think you can't get better, than there is no point in argueing with you. I beleive that whenever you are in a group with better roleplayers, they rub off on you and your roleplaying talent rises. Maybe not if you are the best in a group, but if you can honestly say that you've read all the complete books and nothing has improved your roleplay, then that's admirable, but I don't believe you've read any of them cover to cover. > >I prefer AD&D as well (though highly modified). > like what? (just real curiosity, not an attack) Well, a small list... > To hit bonuses based on Dex, not Strength that's not a bad idea > New Stat: Perception interesting, I use this too. Do you give Bonus/Penalties for this? > No clerics, only specialist priests why don't you like the cleric class? Let me guess . . . you roleplay White Wolf games as well. If so, I've been thinking of adapting some WW to my campaign too. But a lot of those were interesting. I think everyone should have something like that going, where you chose which rules you like from the game, and slowly begin to modify them to your likeing. ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:23:24, -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D >>The argument is systems not roleplaying. To clarify what I said >>earlier, AD&D allows and suggests better roleplaying doesn't create >>it. >How does AD&D suggest better role playing than D&D? By defining everything >so that little is left to the individual? I think you may be getting confused with the optional rules here. Maybe if you accept every optional rule, this would seem constricting, but it's up to the DM as for what he wants. >>It's obvious that no one can give you the ability to roleplay >>better, but AD&D's rules give more leeway to allow better roleplaying. >Again, how is this done? I've written about it already in another post. >> Just because the elves of Alfheim can't be priests, no elf in >>Mystara can???? >First, there is no place in the Rules Cyclopedia where it says that >elves may not be clerics. Second, the gazeteer for Alfheim is >specifically for Alfheim and nowhere else. There is no reason to >believe that elves in Karameikos may not worship Ilsundal under >the aegis of the Church of Karameikos (for example). Then why is it that everyone else is saying that the only Elf-priest is a tree keeper? You are exactly right. Why can't they? It seems that everyone else believes that the Cyclopedia and GAZ's hold all you need, this is not true. Many things are intensionally left open for the DM to decide on. >>>In D&D there are rules for being Lizardmen, Hutaaka, all sorts of >>>humanoids, >>look in the humanoid book. Which has more to tell? >Depends upon your point of view. If your are looking for an example of >a society dominated by humanoids, I recommend the Orcs of Thar. In >general terms the rules for creating classes in D&D are so simple that >it takes very little work to invent a class. The humanoid book was created for huminoid society, it was to understand how to roleplay these monsters, and understand them more in depth, but again you are right, if you are looking for societies of humanoids, you should use Thar. >>>a magician of various schools (such as witchcraft, elementalism, >>>dracology >>>- see GAZ3 The principalities of Glantri for more info), >>or see Complete Wizard's, or Spells and Magic Book (which goes much >>further in depth than GAZ3) >You miss the point. The specialist classes in GAZ3 are far more interesting, >colorful, and powerful than those in the Complete Wizard's Handbook, or in >the Spells and Magic Book. I don't agree, but that's just an opinion question > Additionally, the spell research rules in AD&D are >complete garbage, designed to make it unplayable; Please give me some facts on this point. I have no idea what you're basing this opinion on >where the rule in D&D are >at least simple enough to allow one to play a mage who researches spells. >Now, none of the research systems of D&D or AD&D are worth much (I have >designed my own which works well within either system). How do you do it? > It is, therefore, not unreasonable >to assume that such exists within each and every clan. That's entirely up to the DM, and not just something to be "assumed" >mystics undetailed class taken out of AD&D for many reasons(not about to start on that). It's easily replacible by the Ninja Handbook. >The rules for the mystic are crap. I have taken the original idea and the >original description to create monastic orders for each of the major religions. >These Mystics are true mystics, not simply martial artists. I took the basic >class and instead of unarmed combat gave them something else (whatever >seemed appropriate for the religion), and I reviewed the powers gained and >changed them where it was appropriate. Good I agree with the fact of Mystics being crap. In your campaign, you created something original, in mine, i use mostly Ninja stats, with a few of the original Mystic abilities. >> >Check out the Gazetteer series from D&D - >>I have it and I think it's probably the best series that TSR has come >>up with. However, don't restrict yourself to this. How about >>different elves from elsewhere on Mystara or on different worlds in >>the prime plane. >TSR stopped the line before such could be developed. There is no >reason that you could not develop entirely new types of elves (see >the Hollow World for examples). That's excactly what I'm trying to say >>Don't act like Elves are an endangered species >>only existing in Alfheim. >They are! So, there are no elves outside the Known World? >> >you'll find over 4,000 >>>years of history and perspectives from elves, shadowelves, dwarves, >>>halflings, as well as several human nations. >>which is incredible, but the point isn't just history and >>perspectives, it holds myths and many other tools to help you out in >>your roleplaying, and if you don't like it then don't use it. That's >>why it's optional. >Exactly. It seems like we agree on much of what we are arguing about ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:44:42, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships Are Airships original to Mystara? Not SpellJamming space fights, just the ships that stay in Mystara's atmosphere. Just something I was wondering the other day. ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) From ???@??? Mon Jun 24 08:50:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA00008; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:02:34 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA14935 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:44:14 -0500 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:44:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199606231144.GAA14935@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #133 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 9275bf1277d373c916387ede509b69e5 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:34:28, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J > AD&D stands for ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons. That is the point. >>> It's just D&D improved. Of course it will work for D&D, but D&D >>> played with AD&D supplements means you are playing AD&D. >>> Doesn't it? > >> Actually, from what I've heard, this isn't exactly true. > >That's really interesting. Then what is it called if you use >supplements, and rules from both systems? Is it A&O D&D? Call it whatever you like. What is important is that you are playing a Fantasy Role Playing Game that you like, with rules you and your players are happy with. Who cares what its called -- "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons", "Original Dungeons and Dragons", "Amalgamated Dungeons and Dragons", or just plain-old un-adjectived "Dungeons and Dragons". The point is, do it *your* way and have FUN!!! I AGREE 100% ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:33:15, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D > look in the humanoid book. Which has more to tell? Well, I've read through a lot of the AD&D Humanoid's book, and, after due consideration, I'd have to say I really prefer _The Orcs of Thar_ and the Creature Crucible series. The AD&D book tries to describe a vast array of nonhuman races, and ends up doing so rather blandly, as far as I saw. The OD&D supplements focus on a specific array of nonhumans in each, and give a vivid feel of what it's like to be an orc, or a skygnome, or the like. I'm sure you've read all of the GAZ, so don't campare until you've read all of the Humanoid book > but OD&D also has a wide variety of shamans who are actually _worked >into the setting specifically._ Ethengar shamans are different from >Atruaghin shamans who are different from Broken Lands shamans who are >different from Shadow Elven shamans. If the Shamans supplement for AD&D f>ollows the pattern I've seen in many AD&D supplements, it talks a fair >bit about shamans in general, but relatively little about how they fit >into specific AD&D cultures. And it provides generic mechanics for them >that make shamans from various cultures suspiciously similar to each other. How can you make these assumptions and have these opinions if you haven't even see the accessory!!! > > > >you'll find over 4,000 > >years of history and perspectives from elves, shadowelves, dwarves, > >halflings, as well as several human nations. > > which is incredible, but the point isn't just history and > perspectives, it holds myths and many other tools to help you out in > your roleplaying, and if you don't like it then don't use it. That's > why it's optional. > >Er, yes. How is this a point against OD&D? this is about the Complete Books ------------------------------ From: kevinaug@ihug.co.nz (Kevin Augenstein) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:35:08 +1200 Subject: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule I was just wondering about peoples opinion's on why Hule, or other countries bodering the Savage Coast region, havn't obtained the firearms of the Savage Coast. Are Wheellocks used in Hule. If they are, were they ever mentioned before, or used in Sind ? Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a complete map ). - ----- Kevin Finn Augenstein. kevinaug@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:45:03 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Gazeteers and stuff Hey all, I have recently discovered a p[lace which stioll has alot of OD&D and old AD&D stuff. A real quick run down: ALL Gazeteers except #5 (Elves) Western Counrties Road/Trail Map Eastern Countries Road/Trail Map Kara-Tur Road/Trail Map Forgetten Realms Road/Trail Map In Search of Adventure, B1-9 in one book Many Modules from both AD&D and OD&D Feind Folios, Monster Manuals, Player's Handbooks etc... all from the 1st AD&D and 2edAD&D. I did NOT find WoTI boxed set, but several RED amd PURPLE boxed sets of OD&D, (sets 1, 3,4) Rules Cyclopeadias (The Road/Trail maps are the HUGE maps that are like 4'x3') Lot's of other OLDOLDOLDOLD stuff. All price ever so slightly above original retail prices in most cases, in some cases only a few dollars above original retail. I am going back there in about 1 month if anyone is interested in me picking up anything for them lemme know Joe ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:34:54 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule > I was just wondering about peoples opinion's on why Hule, or other > countries bodering the Savage Coast region, havn't obtained the firearms of > the Savage Coast. Are Wheellocks used in Hule. If they are, were they ever > mentioned before, or used in Sind ? My first idea is that smoke-powder (which is /not/ gunpowder, but works similarly) is only available on the Red-Cursed lands.. it requires two (or three? I'd have to check) substances that can only be found on the Savage Coast. However, in Dragon #199, there's an article by Bruce Heard about gunpowder in the Mystara setting... "Gunpowder-using siege weapons - if allowed by your DM - would be a novelty in the Known World. Gunpowder ... appeared in various areas almost at the same time. ...It would seem that gunpowder is a byproduct of the Great War between Thyatis and Alphatia. "The nations that have access to gunpowder could be Thyatis, karameikos, the Heldannic Knights, Darokin, Rockhome, and Ochalea. Glantri would probably seek to have every speck of this filth scoured from Mystara. "A host of others are frothing at the mouth for the skills and secrets necessary to create the precious gunpowder and the weapons that utilize it. In the latter group would fall all humanoids, *HULE*, and most of the Isle of Dawn nations." To avoid copyright infringement, I recommend you look for the issue yourself. :) > Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a > complete map ). Unfortunately, as far as I know there is no Gazetteer-like reference for Hule.. although if somebody can compile a list of references, I'd greatly appreciate it.. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:44:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule In a message dated 96-06-22 21:34:07 EDT, kevinaug@ihug.co.nz (Kevin Augenstein) writes: << I was just wondering about peoples opinion's on why Hule, or other countries bodering the Savage Coast region, havn't obtained the firearms of the Savage Coast. Are Wheellocks used in Hule. If they are, were they ever mentioned before, or used in Sind ? >> According to the Red Steel boxed set, firearms of the sort used on the Savage Coast work only in areas affected by the Red Curse, or in nearby regions. I suspect that Hule experimented with firearms for a while but gave up on them when they proved unreliable in most parts of Hule. The recent spread of the Red Curse over the entire Savage Coast region may have improved the reliability of such weapons in Hule, but the Master certainly knows better than to let the people of Sind get their hands on any sort of firearms, whether or not they work as far away as Sind. ------------------------------ From: Jason Zavoda Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gazeteers and stuff I sell out of print material over the net and I can tell you that if they have B1-9 or any of the other monster modules A1-4,GDQ1-7, S1-4 or T1-4 or any of the H series or Vecna Lives for just a little more than the original price then don't wait a month to go back because those are some of the most expensive and hard to find Out of Print items around. Jason Zavoda On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Joe Duke wrote: > Hey all, > I have recently discovered a p[lace which stioll has alot of > OD&D and old AD&D stuff. > A real quick run down: > ALL Gazeteers except #5 (Elves) > Western Counrties Road/Trail Map > Eastern Countries Road/Trail Map > Kara-Tur Road/Trail Map > Forgetten Realms Road/Trail Map > In Search of Adventure, B1-9 in one book > Many Modules from both AD&D and OD&D > Feind Folios, Monster Manuals, Player's Handbooks etc... > all from the 1st AD&D and 2edAD&D. > I did NOT find WoTI boxed set, but several RED amd PURPLE boxed > sets of OD&D, (sets 1, 3,4) > Rules Cyclopeadias > > (The Road/Trail maps are the HUGE maps that are like 4'x3') > > Lot's of other OLDOLDOLDOLD stuff. All price ever so slightly above > original retail prices in most cases, in some cases only a few dollars > above original retail. I am going back there in about 1 month if anyone > is interested in me picking up anything for them lemme know > > Joe > ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@IO.COM Date: Sun Jun 23 04:18:10 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sun, 23 Jun 96 00:18 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA13710 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:52:12 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA13696 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:49:25 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA20530 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:45:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA23097 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:44:31 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:44:31 -0400 Message-ID: <960622234429_419802839@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule Content-Length: 928 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-22 21:34:07 EDT, kevinaug@ihug.co.nz (Kevin Augenstein) writes: << I was just wondering about peoples opinion's on why Hule, or other countries bodering the Savage Coast region, havn't obtained the firearms of the Savage Coast. Are Wheellocks used in Hule. If they are, were they ever mentioned before, or used in Sind ? >> According to the Red Steel boxed set, firearms of the sort used on the Savage Coast work only in areas affected by the Red Curse, or in nearby regions. I suspect that Hule experimented with firearms for a while but gave up on them when they proved unreliable in most parts of Hule. The recent spread of the Red Curse over the entire Savage Coast region may have improved the reliability of such weapons in Hule, but the Master certainly knows better than to let the people of Sind get their hands on any sort of firearms, whether or not they work as far away as Sind. ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 05:45:57 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB60CC.E54F6080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, > Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a > complete map ). Unfortunately, as far as I know there is no Gazetteer-like reference for Hule.. although if somebody can compile a list of references, I'd greatly appreciate it.. :) Actually, in the boxed set "Champions of Mystara" there are details about Hule. George - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB60CC.E54F6080 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhYLAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAIQAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gV2hlZWwtTG9j a3MgLSBIdWxlAMMKAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcGABcABQAtADkAAABbAQEggAMADgAAAMwHBgAXAAUALAA5 AAAAWgEBCYABACEAAABCMEYwOTBCNkI2Q0NDRjExOUJFQzQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAAXBwEDkAYAPAMA ABAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBA3Pso8WC7AR4AcAABAAAA IQAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gV2hlZWwtTG9ja3MgLSBIdWxlAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7YPEo +7aQ8LHMthHPm+xERVNUAAAAAAMABhBW1hiWAwAHEB0BAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABIRUxMTyxBTFNP RE9FU0FOWU9ORUtOT1dXSEVSRUlDQU5GSU5EQ09NUExFVEVJTkZPUk1BVElPTk9OSFVMRShBTkRB Q09NUExFVEVNQVApVU5GT1JUVU5BVEVMWSxBU0ZBUkFTAAAAAAIBCRABAAAA6gEAAOYBAAAZAwAA TFpGdRN5OG//AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3Rl bQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EWDzI1NQKACoENsQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRRhQvyYwBAIEhlbBWg hiwKhQqLbGkzNg3waxncE1BvE9BjBUAKhT6BFLBsc28gZG8HkQUAcHkCIGUga25vGQfgd2gEkB/Q SSBj9QORZguAZCCwA3ALUBHAlx/QC4ACEHIAwHRpAiCSICJxSHUhkCAoH3EdITBhHlchVwDAcCAp Ei4KhSBVIfJ0dW6zIkAbAHksH3AEIGYKwbcmgSCgH/N0IFMEACAgAHAgR2F6EcAT0ASQLS0ckGsf 0BYQZiBhbmNPH9AiAQqFItIuLh9wbJMnkAhgZ2gh0GYgHwDzB4AG4GR5ILMhUgMQH9B8YSAckBPA IpArkClHc/kmYEknITAJwSJAJkAKhV8kwBNQBZAHMCGydCrBOn4pCocZ6hu8Gd8UsB4gda8HQCZC C4AngiAG4HgJgOMroBHAICJDEYAsoQIgmwQgLXFNE7EKwGEiJ4V/CsAf0A2wAZADEB9hBuB1XnQq GhtdAZEoQGUFsGe+ZRtfHG8dfzIyFTEAPoAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcw4CV3BfFguwFA AAgw4CV3BfFguwEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAALTe - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB60CC.E54F6080-- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #133 ***************************** From ???@??? Mon Jun 24 08:50:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA09278; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:10:36 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA16533 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:52:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:52:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199606232052.PAA16533@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #134 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ad2b2a642ed06b20a3a617cea7775175 mystara-digest Sunday, 23 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 134 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:06:15 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB60CC.E94DB740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User pontificated: I beg your pardon? > The rules for the mystic are crap. I have taken the original idea and the > original description to create monastic orders for each of the major religions. > These Mystics are true mystics, not simply martial artists. I took the basic > class and instead of unarmed combat gave them something else (whatever > seemed appropriate for the religion), and I reviewed the powers gained and > changed them where it was appropriate. Is is possible for you to post those rules? I will be very interested to see them. BTW, I totally agree with you sentiment of the mystic's rule. Ah, I don't think they will fit. Each type is different specialist class, you see. The list is somewhere around thirty pages in AmiPro III. George P.S. If you are still interested, I may post them one at a time... - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB60CC.E94DB740 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhwLAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAGwAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gQUQmRCB2cyBP RCZEAL8HAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcGABcABgAGAA8AAAALAQEggAMADgAAAMwHBgAXAAYABAAJAAAAAwEB CYABACEAAABCNEYwOTBCNkI2Q0NDRjExOUJFQzQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAAbBwEDkAYAuAQAABAAAAAL ACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQAgffz+82C7AR4AcAABAAAAGwAAAFJF OiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gQUQmRCB2cyBPRCZEAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABu2Dz/vy2kPC1zLYRz5vsREVT VAAAAAADAAYQzFM+rAMABxCoAgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASEVMTE8sV0lORE9XUzk1SU5OT1ZBTUVE SUFVU0VSUE9OVElGSUNBVEVEOklCRUdZT1VSUEFSRE9OP1RIRVJVTEVTRk9SVEhFTVlTVElDQVJF Q1JBUElIQVZFVEFLRU5USEVPUgAAAAACAQkQAQAAAG8DAABrAwAAiwUAAExaRnVH3LQb/wAKAQ8C FQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzN3AuQHEwKAfQqA CM8J2TvxFg8yNTUCgAqBDbELYOBuZzEwMxRQCwoUUYUL8mMAQCBIZWwVoAYsCoUKi2xpMTgwwQLR aS0xNDQN8AzQcx0zC1kxNgqgA2AT0GNzBUAbzTM2HdcaRR7WVxELgGRvdwQgOTUgwElOTk9WQQXQ CYDZBzAgVRGwBcBwAiEGkMhpY2ET0GQ6Co8aHAEkhUkgYmVnIHnvCGEjoAsRAiA/G18f/yEMAD4g VGhlIHJ1rmwHkQIQBcB0KzFtE7EdJBAgCsArQAUAYXAutiAm0RGAditAAZBrCfAzK/MFsGlnC4AH QCBp9w2wI0AAcGQr8iSFKwAud9sNsAT0aQIgK/BvLOEvIPcT0CwwAiBhLGMFsASBK6SXLyARcC5g Ziv0YWoFsc8WEByQLqACIHMuL8crId8RsAXQLFMEICyydCtgLCZQcywgbh7wIACQbf0LUHk0MQAg BzEsoSPgE8CnNSAtQjGgb2sr82IycPskEC/HYwtgBBEvUguAE8HWYS9wM9F1LsByB4AvcGcFoAbQ JDAgZy2TKzBt9zgAA3ARwGgLgCcgGwA2AdwodxGAE9AtoHIvxxGw/xPgPNEtEB7RE1AHMDIRK8a9 NKYpN7AvUibgFhB2CJD+dzzRLAIjsEMwMxE9cAuA/0BiIgA6qBGAGRBDRD3wPxDrBJArQGkFQHcy cECKNTbfJnYEIAQAI6EEEGkCYEE0fydBMZJI8QVALABJACtFP+8tQgPwGxAm8SA/YThgC4D/E9AW EBPBRLYxoUAhPbMtMfhCVFc3sDmiAZAbEDhg/mEJwktxLABJsxGwI9EHgOcCMDPHLFMncySFK2I1 NrMk/yYMQWhOcifBJ0piXwuAOfM4YEuDHQB0LTFF8TOSdHlwRmEEICMgDdDrRkFQkXNXYGMHMTkx OyT/N7BP5EeXKyJYw0jBPhJGJPcKwAhgL2NpACA4YFKgRZDDSKEDoEFtaVADYCKAx12wR60MgiBH ZQWwRZDRKAxQLlMtMEkz4EnC/yyyLGFLoUxYTnIAwFyRSkS/PeECIFuxBUAjQFBSLmRQCygMFTEA ZaAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAwAAAEAABzDg+wO082C7AUAACDDg+wO082C7AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJF OiAAAAAAgWc= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB60CC.E94DB740-- ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 05:43:35 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB60CC.D96CC640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sigh!!! - ---------- From: TIMOTHY M DI BONA[SMTP:MRRU13A@prodigy.com] Sent: Friday, June 21, 1996 7:00 PM To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: RE: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D >>The argument is systems not roleplaying. To clarify what I said >>earlier, AD&D allows and suggests better roleplaying doesn't create >>it. >How does AD&D suggest better role playing than D&D? By defining everything >so that little is left to the individual? I think you may be getting confused with the optional rules here. Maybe if you accept every optional rule, this would seem constricting, but it's up to the DM as for what he wants. No, I am responding to a previously made statement that AD&D is somehow better for role-playing than D&D. >>It's obvious that no one can give you the ability to roleplay >>better, but AD&D's rules give more leeway to allow better roleplaying. >Again, how is this done? I've written about it already in another post. And my response to that is the only thing that encourages good role-play is the acting ability (and desire) of the players and GM. The system is entirely irrelevant. >> Just because the elves of Alfheim can't be priests, no elf in >>Mystara can???? >First, there is no place in the Rules Cyclopedia where it says that >elves may not be clerics. Second, the gazeteer for Alfheim is >specifically for Alfheim and nowhere else. There is no reason to >believe that elves in Karameikos may not worship Ilsundal under >the aegis of the Church of Karameikos (for example). Then why is it that everyone else is saying that the only Elf-priest is a tree keeper? You are exactly right. Why can't they? It seems that everyone else believes that the Cyclopedia and GAZ's hold all you need, this is not true. Many things are intensionally left open for the DM to decide on. First, the only example of an elf-cleric is the tree-keeper. Second, just because everyone else jumps off a cliff to their deaths doesn't mean that I want to join them, right? The world of Mystara is a BIG place, and only a third of one of three major and about six minor continents has been detailed. There is plenty of room not even considering the Hollow World, Petara, the other planar worlds encoutered in various modules, etc. >>>In D&D there are rules for being Lizardmen, Hutaaka, all sorts of >>>humanoids, >>look in the humanoid book. Which has more to tell? >Depends upon your point of view. If your are looking for an example of >a society dominated by humanoids, I recommend the Orcs of Thar. In >general terms the rules for creating classes in D&D are so simple that >it takes very little work to invent a class. The humanoid book was created for huminoid society, it was to understand how to roleplay these monsters, and understand them more in depth, but again you are right, if you are looking for societies of humanoids, you should use Thar. How can you roleplay a member of a society you know nothing about? >>>a magician of various schools (such as witchcraft, elementalism, >>>dracology >>>- see GAZ3 The principalities of Glantri for more info), >>or see Complete Wizard's, or Spells and Magic Book (which goes much >>further in depth than GAZ3) >You miss the point. The specialist classes in GAZ3 are far more interesting, >colorful, and powerful than those in the Complete Wizard's Handbook, or in >the Spells and Magic Book. I don't agree, but that's just an opinion question > Additionally, the spell research rules in AD&D are >complete garbage, designed to make it unplayable; Please give me some facts on this point. I have no idea what you're basing this opinion on All right. In D&D (according to the book) to research a spell you have the DM determine the level of the spell (which is always the weakest link, as there are no real guidelines for this that are self-consistent), you then spend a week plus one day per level of the spell in research, and 1,000 gp (or equivalent) per level in research costs. Simple. The process in AD&D is horribly complicated, requiring the DM and/or player to develop a list of ingredients usually involving quests to acquire such. This requires the player/DM to be an expert in magic rather than just acting like one. >where the rule in D&D are >at least simple enough to allow one to play a mage who researches spells. >Now, none of the research systems of D&D or AD&D are worth much (I have >designed my own which works well within either system). How do you do it? I have devised a system for calculating the "power" used by a spell, and thus determining its level. Almost none of the book spells correspond to their printed level. > It is, therefore, not unreasonable >to assume that such exists within each and every clan. That's entirely up to the DM, and not just something to be "assumed" Actually it is specified in the Rules Cyclopedia that clans have such relics. If you want to assume otherwise that is up to you. At least on Mystara it seems to be true. Though they are not always going to be relics specified (elves - Trees of Life, dwarves - Great Forges, halflings - Blackflame), though most seem to be. >mystics undetailed class taken out of AD&D for many reasons(not about to start on that). It's easily replacible by the Ninja Handbook. >The rules for the mystic are crap. I have taken the original idea and the >original description to create monastic orders for each of the major religions. >These Mystics are true mystics, not simply martial artists. I took the basic >class and instead of unarmed combat gave them something else (whatever >seemed appropriate for the religion), and I reviewed the powers gained and >changed them where it was appropriate. Good I agree with the fact of Mystics being crap. In your campaign, you created something original, in mine, i use mostly Ninja stats, with a few of the original Mystic abilities. How do you equate mystics, which are stated specifically as being involved with the immortals with Ninjas which are assassins? >> >Check out the Gazetteer series from D&D - >>I have it and I think it's probably the best series that TSR has come >>up with. However, don't restrict yourself to this. How about >>different elves from elsewhere on Mystara or on different worlds in >>the prime plane. >TSR stopped the line before such could be developed. There is no >reason that you could not develop entirely new types of elves (see >the Hollow World for examples). That's excactly what I'm trying to say Then you have said it badly. >>Don't act like Elves are an endangered species >>only existing in Alfheim. >They are! So, there are no elves outside the Known World? No, I should have specified that elves seem to be an endangered species. >> >you'll find over 4,000 >>>years of history and perspectives from elves, shadowelves, dwarves, >>>halflings, as well as several human nations. >>which is incredible, but the point isn't just history and >>perspectives, it holds myths and many other tools to help you out in >>your roleplaying, and if you don't like it then don't use it. That's >>why it's optional. >Exactly. It seems like we agree on much of what we are arguing about Perhaps it was the tone of the arguments. 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Mon Jun 24 08:50:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA09278; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:10:36 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA16533 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:52:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:52:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199606232052.PAA16533@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #134 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ad2b2a642ed06b20a3a617cea7775175 /wQgdkWkHyuwmoVoZZ/Dj1j5gLNBWljxYkBWwUBhG8b/T5IroAmAViWNs0zxUnBTAf1TsG56xUCx jYICMAnwAJD/UiJfsUzDj4GKt1oiWYVNEf8FgSsgenJ2P3dPt4OM6HqE76Glf7IDkYphLZKkehao Mu4tqISTGLdlaocKpGy+gP+h0IhCu1E9oQaQf9FNI39w+0lxPlBocoJC87dlB4ADkU9L0yTgWuJN AmpvjnRt/ytgqhNOLTrinRFWwX/Bi2bxp+NCSUeOBCtgQNJ6k/+oEUrgCyB/smkCf8MJ0cLGvmHE cAXAQNJ0NACQeDDA/wuABbFQwVBxKPFSsVnxQaD/dAENsAGQAxAJgJiKoeECMP55t2V/wQNgA3A8 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UGmA/aOAcA5x4UQSko5Ai9hcIu+dwI8Adzfi1mWyYl03Oq8Vb4l9XTAAZ9ADABAQAAAAAAMAERAA AAAAQAAHMEC0HIPuYLsBQAAIMEC0HIPuYLsBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAACroQ== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB60CC.D96CC640-- ------------------------------ From: Gavin Koh Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:31:34 +0800 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule [Lurker mode off...] At 05:45 AM 6/23/96 -0500, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: >> Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a >> complete map ). > Unfortunately, as far as I know there is no Gazetteer-like reference for >Hule.. although if somebody can compile a list of references, I'd greatly >appreciate it.. :) > >Actually, in the boxed set "Champions of Mystara" there are details about >Hule. I believe there is a good summary of Hule (plus map) in The Poor Wizard's Almanac II. [Lurker mode on...] _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/ Gavin Koh, Singapore _/_/ _/_/ flkoh@singnet.com.sg _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 07:57:31 CDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships >Are Airships original to Mystara? Not SpellJamming space fights, just >the ships that stay in Mystara's atmosphere. Just something I was >wondering the other day. Would these be something similar to the Dragon Wings from Hickman and Weis's Death Gate novels Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 08:22:39 CDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gazeteers and stuff >Hey all, > I have recently discovered a p[lace which stioll has alot of >OD&D and old AD&D stuff. > A real quick run down: > ALL Gazeteers except #5 (Elves) > Western Counrties Road/Trail Map > Eastern Countries Road/Trail Map > Kara-Tur Road/Trail Map > Forgetten Realms Road/Trail Map > In Search of Adventure, B1-9 in one book > Many Modules from both AD&D and OD&D > Feind Folios, Monster Manuals, Player's Handbooks etc... > all from the 1st AD&D and 2edAD&D. > I did NOT find WoTI boxed set, but several RED amd PURPLE boxed > sets of OD&D, (sets 1, 3,4) > Rules Cyclopeadias > >(The Road/Trail maps are the HUGE maps that are like 4'x3') > >Lot's of other OLDOLDOLDOLD stuff. All price ever so slightly above >original retail prices in most cases, in some cases only a few dollars >above original retail. I am going back there in about 1 month if anyone >is interested in me picking up anything for them lemme know > >Joe > Would the person who posted this please email me off list. Thank you. Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 11:02:47, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships >>Are Airships original to Mystara? Not SpellJamming space fights, just >>the ships that stay in Mystara's atmosphere. Just something I was >>wondering the other day. >Would these be something similar to the Dragon Wings from Hickman and Weis's >Death Gate novels Sorry, I'm ignorant to these novels. Are they like the Mystaran Airships? Like the one's in the Champions of Mystara Box set? ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:55:32, -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D > The rules for the mystic are crap. I have taken the original idea and the > original description to create monastic orders for each of the major religions. > These Mystics are true mystics, not simply martial artists. I took the basic > class and instead of unarmed combat gave them something else (whatever > seemed appropriate for the religion), and I reviewed the powers gained and > changed them where it was appropriate. Is is possible for you to post those rules? I will be very interested to see them. BTW, I totally agree with you sentiment of the mystic's rule. Ah, I don't think they will fit. Each type is different specialist class, you see. The list is somewhere around thirty pages in AmiPro III. George ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 11:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] (Mystara) Jennite Shamans? Just wondering something-in DoE it says stuff about Jeniite Shamans. Now this could refer to standard clerics, but also shamans like the monster spell-caster rules. Being a primitive people, would they have the same limited access to clerical powers as monster-type shamans or should they be treated like normal clerics? All opinions welcome. Hey, Blitzwing. Tank you-Warpath (heh heh) ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:20:14 -0400 (EST) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule > > Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a > > complete map ). > Unfortunately, as far as I know there is no Gazetteer-like reference for > Hule.. although if somebody can compile a list of references, I'd greatly > appreciate it.. :) > > Actually, in the boxed set "Champions of Mystara" there are details about > Hule. There's 2 paragraphs specific to Hule.. plus "For more information, see X4: Master of the Desert Nomads, X5: Temple of Death, and X10: Red Arrow, Black Shield." and scattered references to Hule being the "bogeyman" country throughout. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:33:21 -0400 (EST) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule > >> Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a > >> complete map ). > > Unfortunately, as far as I know there is no Gazetteer-like reference for > >Hule.. although if somebody can compile a list of references, I'd greatly > >appreciate it.. :) > I believe there is a good summary of Hule (plus map) in The Poor Wizard's > Almanac II. A thorough - if nowhere near as detailed as the Gazetteers, of course - summary.. it also points to X5, and Dragon #173.. A 'chattier' description, researched by the Chief Engineer of the Princess Ark.. it gives a less-accurate, but more colourful description of the country. PS: Does anybody have modules X4 or X5? If so, please email me... - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:30:50 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Re: Jennite Shamans? In a message dated 96-06-23 12:24:32 EDT, megst19+@pitt.edu (Mischa E Gelman) writes: << Just wondering something-in DoE it says stuff about Jeniite Shamans. Now this could refer to standard clerics, but also shamans like the monster spell-caster rules. Being a primitive people, would they have the same limited access to clerical powers as monster-type shamans or should they be treated like normal clerics? All opinions welcome. >> I would guess that these Shamans would be most similar to the Ethengar Shamans described in the Gazetteer "Golden Khan of Ethengar". If that gazetteer is not available to you, the AD&D "Shaman" supplement should be close enough. As a final fallback, you could treat them as Druids. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sun Jun 23 20:04:07 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sun, 23 Jun 96 16:04 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA16248 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:37:25 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA16232 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:32:45 -0500 Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA17066 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:31:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA24794 for mystara-l@io.com; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:30:50 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:30:50 -0400 Message-ID: <960623153049_420052371@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Re: Jennite Shamans? Content-Length: 733 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-23 12:24:32 EDT, megst19+@pitt.edu (Mischa E Gelman) writes: << Just wondering something-in DoE it says stuff about Jeniite Shamans. Now this could refer to standard clerics, but also shamans like the monster spell-caster rules. Being a primitive people, would they have the same limited access to clerical powers as monster-type shamans or should they be treated like normal clerics? All opinions welcome. >> I would guess that these Shamans would be most similar to the Ethengar Shamans described in the Gazetteer "Golden Khan of Ethengar". If that gazetteer is not available to you, the AD&D "Shaman" supplement should be close enough. As a final fallback, you could treat them as Druids. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #134 *****************************