mystara-digest Monday, 24 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 135 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 13:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named Anne An administrative note: This topic has wandered a bit too far off topic, from being a comparison of D&D and AD&D to a discussion of AD&D handbooks and such. So, I would like to see this moved to private e-mail. If anyone wants to respond, please address your replies to me and Timothy. If anyone else is interested, e-mail me and I will forward them to you. Thank you. On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > > Power gamers want power. And that want it _now_. In D&D a > >first > >level fighter is not particularly impressive. One attack, no extra > >damage, no bonus to hit. > > but i thought : > > >>> The difference here is that not all human > >>> fighters are the same guy. > >And neither are they the same guy in D&D > > so you are saying that statistic wise, all human fighters in D&D are > the same? No more so than in AD&D. Their stats, personality, and history will be different, but, if wielding the same weapon (and are proficient in it), their combat effectiveness will be about the same. Just as in AD&D. > > But a first level AD&D fighter gets multiple > >attacks, does more damage and hits more often. > > not true in the least. You may obtain the (+1) to hit and damage, > but this is at the cost of a weapon slot Not true in the least? Having to spend 1 weapon slot (hardly a sacrifice) does not disqualify my statement. For this piddling cost a fighter gets a +1 to hit, +2 to damage, and three attacks every two rounds. > > If you were a powergamer, which would you rather play? > > I'm not so I wouldn't know. Which would you play? Oh, give me a break, you know full well what the powergamer would choose: the immediate gratification of might. That's what being a powergamer is all about. A person does not have to be one to see that. > >> This is a pefect example of hack and slash. It's not all in the > >> dice. > >True, but it is about all the rules give us, and we are talking > rules. > > You don't have to answer to every rule in the game. If you want to > adapt an AD&D rule go ahead I never claimed you did. What I am saying is that both AD&D and D&D gives a person very little in the way of rule-based options in combat. So, it is up to the GM to spice it up. But that's not part of the standard rules, which is what we are discussing. > >> also you will have time to roleplay the battle more: "This is > >> for my country" or "Stop! you're a far better swordsman than I". > >> This can't happen in one round of combat. That is why longer combat > >> allows more roleplay. > > > It can't? > > NO not in one round Sorry, but you are incorrect, good roleplaying can most certainly happen in the space of a single round. I have seen it happen many a time. > > I have played/GM'ed both AD&D and D&D, > >and I didn't notice significant difference in combat, either in > length or the amount of roleplaying. > > there is a difference No, their was a difference in the campaigns you were in. Again, there was no real difference in the ones I was in. Played much the same, whether in D&D or AD&D. D&D fighters can do more in a single attack, but AD&D fighters can attack multiple times per round. It pretty much balances out. But I fully admit YMMV. > > > Of course it will work for D&D, but D&D > > > played with AD&D supplements means you are playing AD&D. > > > Doesn't it? > > > No, it means your playing D&D with AD&D supplements. Just like > > someone who plays AD&D with D&D=92s weapon mastery rules is still > > playing AD&D. > > The point is that it doesnt' matter what you call it, both systems > have good/bad points. Agreed. > I've played D&D and AD&D and > felt restricted in certain areas, so i ended up accepting some rules > from each system, so now i love all the rules I use. Maybe you > should try it out. I already do. Thanks. > Look at the new AD&D books and see if they can be > integrated into your campaign. It might work for you. I already have. Some of them I have bought, liked, and used some of the concepts from (Spells and Magic), while some I bought, looked through, had a good laugh over, then sold (Skills and Powers). If you care check out http://www.io.com/~oryon There is a link there to a list of all my game stuff. Rest assured, I have a lot of AD&D books. And I have read most of the books that I don't currently own (Like the humanoids handbook.) > >> >Kinda like Elves of Alfheim? > > >Yes, but more detailed and not centered on one country in Mystara. > > >Right, but this is the Mystara list. We have been given the > >infromation we need. The Elf book is going to mean little at this > point.= > > Mystara is not the Known World. The known World is what TSR gives > you to start off your campaigns on Mystara. It's all structured out > perfectly so you may have limitless adventures. Now look at a map of > Mystara. . . . . ok first off the Known World covers a small portion > of Brun. Now you are telling me that it is impossible for there to be > any Elves in Davania, Skothar, or anyy other region??? Come on now. > The rest of Mystara, IMO, is for the DM to work with. Mapping out > the rest of the world, and createing other empires that strive there. > Now would these creatures see the world as the Elves of Alfheim > would??? The Gaz is perfect for Alfheim, but how about the rest of > the world? Two comments on this... 1) The Elves Handbook is not some wide angled lense on the elves. It does not cover all possibilities. It covers a fairly specific set of elves: those that are similar to the general outline presented in the Players Handbook. So, if I was to create another group of elves, and I wanted to model them after this paradigm, then I agree, the Elven book would be handy. But if I had my own concepts, it would not. And I am a lot more likely to create my own concepts. For example, I did a writeup for a world that was to be part of a Spelljammer campaign I was going to run about a year ago. The only elves on the planet lived on the ocean. They lived on ships, floating towns, or on the back of Zharatan (giant turtles, detailed in the Monstrous Manual). They dislike land, and being on land for extended periods of time can actually drive some of them insane. This elven culture had little in common with elves of other worlds. There lives, goals, religion,and personality were quite different. They did have a few things in common, but not much. Would the elven handbook mean much for them? Oh sure, there would be a point or two of interest, but in all it just wouldn't help much. When doing this kind of thing I would rather do it myself than use a book. 2) I am fully aware of the extent of the planet Mystara, thank you. And, I know this wasn't your point, but I will probably never put much effort into detailing anything beyond the Known World. I love Mystara, but if I am going to put that much creative effort into something, it is going to be the fantasy world of my own creation, Khele'Cryuun, which does not have elves, and isn't under AD&D anyway (I use GURPS). On the other hand, someday i will put somework detailing some of the territory already covered. I would really like to write-up a Volo's guide type book for each of the Gazetteer countries. > >At this point I am probably about as good a > >roleplayer as I am ever going to be. > > that's too bad. Actually I think that anyone can improve their > roleplaying, but if you think you can't get better, than there is no > point in argueing with you. Notice I said "about". Will I get better? Sure, but it will be small, incremental changes. Not like some of the larger revelations I received early in my gaming career. Any skill a person has is eventually going to reach a plateu, a point where it is hard to get much better. I won't detail how long I have played RPG's, or how intently, but suffice to say it has been long enough to reach this point. And I want to say I am not bragging here. I am not saying I am a studly roleplayer with skills comparable to an Oscar winning actor. But I am good, and I assume we have a considerable number of people on this list who can say the same thing. > I beleive that whenever you are in a > group with better roleplayers, they rub off on you and your > roleplaying talent rises. Maybe not if you are the best in a group, > but if you can honestly say that you've read all the complete books > and nothing has improved your roleplay, then that's admirable, but I > don't believe you've read any of them cover to cover. You can believe what you like, but that doesn't really affect the reality of what I have done. I have read every book in the Complete Players handbook series from cover to cover, with the exception of the Ninja and Barbarian. And some of these, like the Necromancer's book, I have read more than once. And I am not saying that these books don't have good advice. It's just that what they say is fairly elementary, stuff that I already know, in one form or another. Or, they give advice I don't agree with. And I do think they give information that can be used for a person to flesh out their character, and help them roleplay better. But I never really needed this. If I didn't have the knowledge handed to me, I made it up, on the spot if necessary. > > >I prefer AD&D as well (though highly modified). > > like what? (just real curiosity, not an attack) > > Well, a small list... > > New Stat: Perception > > interesting, I use this too. Do you give Bonus/Penalties for this? Yup. It gives a penalty to any thief trying to hide or move silently from the character. And I no longer use the 1d6 method for finding secret doors; it is all based on a Perception roll. > > No clerics, only specialist priests > why don't you like the cleric class? I think the idea of a single class that recieves the same spells and powers, and has the same weapon and armour restrictions, no matter what god/power/immortal he worships is silly. I like the idea of a priest class that is tailored to each god. > Let me guess . . . you roleplay White Wolf games as well. Yup, Mage, Wraith and Vampire (In order of preference), though I will play Werewolf. > If so, I've > been thinking of adapting some WW to my campaign too. As much as I like the World of Darkness, I really don't like the Storyteller game system, so I am unlikely to integrate any of their rules. > But a lot of > those were interesting. I think everyone should have something like > that going, where you chose which rules you like from the game, and > slowly begin to modify them to your likeing. I completely agree. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:04:13 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Volo? (was: Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named , Anne) > > Mystara is not the Known World. The known World is what TSR gives > > you to start off your campaigns on Mystara. It's all structured out > > perfectly so you may have limitless adventures. Now look at a map of > > Mystara. . . . . ok first off the Known World covers a small portion > > of Brun. So, does that mean the Known World doesn't include Sind, the Great Waste, Yavdlom, the various Savage Coast nations, the northern part of Davania, Alphatia, and western Skothar, all of which have been detailed by TSR? > > Now you are telling me that it is impossible for there to be > > any Elves in Davania, Skothar, or anyy other region??? Let me see.. there's the Savage Coast, the elves up in the northwest part of Brun (where the Feadils in Alfheim came from), Alphatia, the partly-elven people of Yavdlom, the elves of Graakhalia under the Great Waste, the Shadow Elves underneath the KW, the half-elf, half-ogres just past the Vulture Peninsula, the aquatic elves in the Sea of Dread, the Hollow World elves, and so on... > > The rest of Mystara, IMO, is for the DM to work with. Mapping out > > the rest of the world, and createing other empires that strive there. If you care to use it, a good deal of Davinia was mapped out in the Princess Ark series. > > Now would these creatures see the world as the Elves of Alfheim > > would??? The Gaz is perfect for Alfheim, but how about the rest of > > the world? The Gazetteers (GAZ5: Alfheim and GAZ13(?): Shadow Elves) give history and geography of the Elves, which is fairly easy to build from. Perhaps some elves dropped off of Islundal's migration on the Arm of the Immortals, for instance... > On the other hand, someday i will put somework detailing some of the > territory already covered. I would really like to write-up a Volo's guide > type book for each of the Gazetteer countries. Volo? Pardon my non-Mystara ignorance, but who is he/she, and what are his/her guide type books like? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Volo? On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > On the other hand, someday i will put somework detailing some of the > > territory already covered. I would really like to write-up a Volo's guide > > type book for each of the Gazetteer countries. > Volo? Pardon my non-Mystara ignorance, but who is he/she, and what are > his/her guide type books like? The Volo's Guide series is written for the Forgotten Realms. Each volume covers a certain area, and details the various towns and sites in the region. For most of the towns it lists some basic information, plus details some of its establishments. For example, for a town it will talk about who is in control, what the character of the town is, and what the town does economically. It the would go on to detail some of the taverns, inns, festhalls, and businesses. The establishments all recieve quite a bit of detail, such as what they sell, prices, appearance, who owns it, who works there, who frequents the place, and so on. The guides are chock full of descriptive information, being very low on actual rules. They are excellent for adding color and roleplaying potential to a town. One of the reasons I like the Realms so much. I think such a work would be an excellent addition to Mystara, one for each country. I mean, what do we really know about some of the establishments in the town of Penahaligon? Or most of the towns in Glantri? Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Michael.D.Mearls@Dartmouth.EDU (Michael D. Mearls) Date: 23 Jun 96 20:48:29 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Volo? (was: Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named , Anne) - --- Daniel Boese wrote: Volo? Pardon my non-Mystara ignorance, but who is he/she, and what are his/her guide type books like? - --- end of quoted material --- Volo is a rogue type explorer from the Forgotten Realms. His guidebooks are sort of like travel guides - the one I have is for Waterdeep (a large city in the Realms) and gives descriptions of many shops, inns and pubs, each with a rating of 1 to 5 for quality, price, etc. The guide is rather nice, giving a good amount of detail of a large number of places in Waterdeep. There's enough "meat" in the book to provide plenty of adventure hooks and ideas and a rather large list of NPC's, mostly shop owners and such, with roleplaying notes for each of them. I'm not sure what the non-Waterdeep ones are like, but I liked the Waterdeep one enough to use alot of material from it to help flesh out Specularum (sp? The capitol of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos) from my upcoming Known World/Mystara campaign AD&D variant rules campaign. From ???@??? Tue Jun 25 11:47:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA24830; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:49:20 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA23160 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:54:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:54:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199606241754.MAA23160@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #135 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: cfdbb7565c9057bbefc1ede9778219d0 ------------------------------ From: Jason MURPHY Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:33:13 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > > I've read the gaz's and use them as well. My campaign is on Mystara. > I use Cyclopedia weapon specialization, but everything else is AD&D, > with my own original rules added as well. My arguement isn't that > AD&D is better than OD&D, just that AD&D's supplements and > accessories make for a better game. It's all D&D, but why not > consider adding a little spice to the game? > > > > The amount of supplements available to the OD&D gamers is more than can probably be used by a group of gamers in their collective lifetimes and as a result i see no shortage of "spice" in either system. If anything AD&D has over done the supplement side of things. Of course just MHO. OD&D, i have tried the rest but stuck with the best. Jason Murphy. ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:58:18, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green > An administrative note: This topic has wandered a bit too far off >topic, from being a comparison of D&D and AD&D to a discussion of AD&D >handbooks and such. So, I would like to see this moved to private e- mail. >If anyone wants to respond, please address your replies to me and Timothy. >If anyone else is interested, e-mail me and I will forward them to you. > Thank you. As the spark of this arguement, I completely agree. I think we've come to an agreement/understanding of eachother's points. So as of now, this arguement is over. ------------------------------ From: "Alex Gregoire" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:55:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gazeteers and stuff - ---------- : From: Joe Duke : To: mystara-l@io.com : Subject: [Mystara] Gazeteers and stuff : Date: 22 juin, 1996 22:45 : : Hey all, : I have recently discovered a p[lace which stioll has alot of : OD&D and old AD&D stuff. : A real quick run down: : ALL Gazeteers except #5 (Elves) [snip] : Lot's of other OLDOLDOLDOLD stuff. All price ever so slightly above : original retail prices in most cases, in some cases only a few dollars : above original retail. I am going back there in about 1 month if anyone : is interested in me picking up anything for them lemme know : : Joe Hi, If you can have Gazetteer #1 (9193) Grand Duchy of Karameikos I can be Interrested. Please E-mail me. Alex, kat.path@spherenet.com - -- Hell-O-Matic Version: 6.66 (c) 1996, Satan Software Inc. "The Tool Of The Devil" This Time No Compromise This Time They'll Pay The Price | Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:25:37 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) Brandy106@aol.com wrote: > why would a dwarf have any different cleric abilities than any other race? > It would be kind of silly. I would assume, that it isnt so much about the race, but about religion. It would be quite sily that a dwarf-cleric of Protius would have so different abilities than a human cleric of protius. But it is not silly, not even unlikely that a dwarf cleric of Kagyar sould have different abilities, than a human cleric of protius, or Alphatia or whom ever. The idea of some variations in the clerical abilities can easily be seen in the Immortal listings in TWoTI, as there most of the immortals give some special abilities to their clerics, or sometimes somehow restrict some of their powers. So as most of the dwarf-clerics are clerics of kagyar, it is wery easy to understand that it would seem that the whole race has different clerical abilities, than most humans. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 11:25:54 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB61C1.8E853EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, > The rules for the mystic are crap. I have taken the original idea and the > original description to create monastic orders for each of the major religions. > These Mystics are true mystics, not simply martial artists. I took the basic > class and instead of unarmed combat gave them something else (whatever > seemed appropriate for the religion), and I reviewed the powers gained and > changed them where it was appropriate. Is is possible for you to post those rules? I will be very interested to see them. BTW, I totally agree with you sentiment of the mystic's rule. Ah, I don't think they will fit. Each type is different specialist class, you see. The list is somewhere around thirty pages in AmiPro III. George This is e-mail. 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[Mystara] Volo? On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > I think such a work would be an excellent addition to Mystara, one for > each country. I mean, what do we really know about some of the > establishments in the town of Penahaligon? Or most of the towns in > Glantri? Hmm... I'm willing to collaborate with this.. Would this be a 'Justin's Almanac' style thing, with correspondants covering each area? (Or would it actually /be/ Justin & co.?) I can just imagine a cross-Glantri wine & cheese tour... ;) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:01:49 -0300 (EST) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule > PS: Does anybody have modules X4 or X5? If so, please email me... > X5 is Temple of Death, right? I have it, but it is at home. I'll read it tonight, if I have time, and post what it says about Hule later. IIRC, there is at least a description of the the temple where the Master resides and the forest around it, as well as a passage through the mountains to get in Hule. But I might be wrong. Andre acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:09:15 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Trying to contact a www.angelfire.com member (fwd) I'm trying to get in touch with the owner of one of the free pages on www.angelfire.com, mostly a Mystara page.. however, the author seems to have neglected to add a mailto: address on his page, or even letting the sysadmins at angelfire.com know his email. The address is: http://www.angelfire.com/pages1/estlor/index.html If anybody knows who set this page up, would you let me know? I'm trying to get in touch with him.. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:22:08 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) I've been thinking about Ravenloft for a little while, and was wondering... who do /you/ think is the best candidate to get captured by the mists? Let me think.. who's a person of Great Power and Great Evil, equivilent to Krynn's Lord Soth or Strahd himself... There's the Master.. Bargle isn't quite powerful enough.. Ludwig Von Hendriks might be fun. :) Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany would almost be a cliche.. Synn/Dolores Hillsbury sounds just about right, as does Brannart McGregor.. /maybe/ Alebane or Thar.. Anyway, those are all the candidates for Ravenloft-bait for the moment. Post your own candidates, and why! :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 21:00:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Sunday, 23-Jun-96 11:02 AM > > From: TIMOTHY M DI BONA \ PRODIGY: (MRRU13A) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships > > >>Are Airships original to Mystara? Not SpellJamming space fights, > just > >>the ships that stay in Mystara's atmosphere. Just something I was > >>wondering the other day. > > >Would these be something similar to the Dragon Wings from Hickman and Weis's > >Death Gate novels > > Sorry, I'm ignorant to these novels. Are they like the Mystaran Airships ? > Like the one's in the Champions of Mystara Box set? > - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- To my recollection, the Dragon Wings look much like dragon/ship crosses. Human slaves work mechanical devices inside to "flap," and this causes the ships to fly. Not like most Mystaran Airships, but I suppose they could be. In Death Gate they require no magic, but that could be altered for Mystara... Shelby ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule Kevin Augenstein pontificated: > > I was just wondering about peoples opinion's on why Hule, or other > countries bodering the Savage Coast region, havn't obtained the firearms of > the Savage Coast. Are Wheellocks used in Hule. If they are, were they ever > mentioned before, or used in Sind ? > > Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a > complete map ). > Doesn't the smoke powder that wheellock of Savage Coast uses require a the mineral that is the by-product of cyranbal? If so that type of smoke powder might be very hard to come by outside of the SC. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Michael.D.Mearls@Dartmouth.EDU (Michael D. Mearls) Date: 24 Jun 96 22:18:30 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) Hosadas or whatever his name was, the Master of the desert nomads! How many other Mystaran villains have had 3 modules written about them? He almost conquered the known world twice, and was quite a nasty guy if I remember right from Master of the Desert Nomads and Temple of Death. Wasn't there some other major villain named Alphaks or something who appeared in a few master set modules? ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:31:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) In a message dated 96-06-24 23:34:59 EDT, Michael.D.Mearls@Dartmouth.EDU (Michael D. Mearls) writes: << Wasn't there some other major villain named Alphaks or something who appeared in a few master set modules? >> Yes, but there is one problem -- Alphaks is definitely an Immortal now. Deities don't get banished to Ravenloft. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:01:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) In a message dated 96-06-24 21:30:21 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: << I've been thinking about Ravenloft for a little while, and was wondering... who do /you/ think is the best candidate to get captured by the mists? >> There is no question about it -- the Master of Hule, who is the single most powerful mortal being (or Immortal in mortal identity -- he is questing for Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy, after all). But I think the Master is most interesting where he is right now. Ravenloft already has enough big baddies. ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:47:52 -0300 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Temple of Death - Hule I have the module in frony of me now. It includes a detailed passage through the Black Mountains, known as the Great Pass that Hule uses to send its armies to eastern countries. I suppose they make they way underground from there, it is a northern passage and the Plain of Fire would be the above ground alternative, but it doesn't mention how the heroes would get there. I suppose they could go by the shore and head north near the mountains, but then there would be no reason why they wouldn't cross between the mountains and the sea, so I suppose there was no Plain of Fire when the module was created, just the Sind desert (that's indeed all it mentions. It procceeds describing hulean society and one of its cities (Magden). There is a map of Hule, but no names of cities, just their positions and the module says that whatever way tha PCs go, Magden will be the first city they will enter. Dark wood is a forest in northwestern Hule, a place avoided by the local people and at its center is Huli capital, Temple of Death, known as Greatrealm to the people of Hule. It includes a description of the forest, the city is basically a temple complex. And according to the module, the Master of Hule is Hosadus himself, although his body is in one of the coffins, he controls another body, so it is not an easy task to destroy him. Now a question: the objective of the module is to destroy the Master, not just his avatar (that is the exact word used). What do you think it would happen to hulean society should Hosadus die? It would be no problem if the Master where just a title, but he has been the same being since the foundation of Hule. If you want to know anything else, please ask me. I can not copy any passage of the module, but I can send the info. Am I right, Leroy? Andre acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue Jun 25 05:24:42 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 25 Jun 96 01:24 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA28003 for mystara-l-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:37:34 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA27989 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:35:16 -0500 Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA26062 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:31:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA18772 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:31:42 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:31:42 -0400 Message-ID: <960625003140_563466145@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) Content-Length: 331 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-24 23:34:59 EDT, Michael.D.Mearls@Dartmouth.EDU (Michael D. Mearls) writes: << Wasn't there some other major villain named Alphaks or something who appeared in a few master set modules? >> Yes, but there is one problem -- Alphaks is definitely an Immortal now. Deities don't get banished to Ravenloft. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue Jun 25 05:21:18 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 25 Jun 96 01:21 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA27842 for mystara-l-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:07:50 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA27818 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:04:40 -0500 Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA24684 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:01:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA16704 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:01:39 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:01:39 -0400 Message-ID: <960625000137_338622998@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) Content-Length: 563 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-24 21:30:21 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: << I've been thinking about Ravenloft for a little while, and was wondering... who do /you/ think is the best candidate to get captured by the mists? >> There is no question about it -- the Master of Hule, who is the single most powerful mortal being (or Immortal in mortal identity -- he is questing for Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy, after all). But I think the Master is most interesting where he is right now. Ravenloft already has enough big baddies. ------------------------------ From: "Shane" Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:35:01 +1000 Subject: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? As many of you may know from reading this list or various TSR books, there is a portal between Mystara and a place called Averoigne on a variant medieval Earth (where Rad/Etienne and the rest of the family of d'Ambreville once lived). I've been wondering if there might be a list of such portals to other (A)D&D 'gaming' worlds, as it were. In one of the old D&D modules I once saw, there was a passage between Mystara and Oerth(?). It involved a cabin or the like in a forest, as I recall. I've also seen reference (maybe in a gazeteer?) to a similar portal or portals somewhere in one of the three nations of Soderfjord, Vestland and Ostland (I can't remember which one). Anyone able to shed some light on these vague, dim memories of mine, or add to them? - -- Shane (mailto:sleepy@peg.apc.org), Bundaberg, Australia (GMT+10). disclaimer - I might have no idea what I'm talking about This message sent using 100% recycled electrons - mileage varies! ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Mystic class (was: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D) Windows 95 INNOVA Media User pontificated: > > Ah, I don't think they will fit. Each type is different specialist class, you see. > The list is somewhere around thirty pages in AmiPro III. > > George > > P.S. If you are still interested, I may post them one at a time... > I guess you email server have a size limit? I personally am still very interested in that, so if it is not too much trouble, please post away. If you don't want to post all of them, perhaps post one or two of your best one, so we can see what type of stuffs you did. Thanks. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 19:02:11 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D At 20.14 21/06/96 -0500, you wrote: > Just because the elves of Alfheim can't be priests, no elf in >Mystara can???? Isn't this a bit rediculous? Now i think i got off >the subject. I'm not sure if no elf on Mystara can be priest (there are so many unmapped areas where we can put everything we like) but I'm sure that Alfheim Elves can be Treekeepers, and Shadow Elves can be Shamans. > >>> In AD&D the battles are longer, therefore more graphic, more >roleplaying >>> throughout, and much more realistic. Longer battles doesn't mean more roleplaying, because often battles means nothing more than dice rolling. Sometimes we end our gaming session without rolling a single die (i.e. without fighting): does it mean we didn't have fun or we roleplayed in a "bad" way ? I don't think so, on the contrary I think that means that we roleplayed for the whole evening. > >>In D&D there are rules for being Lizardmen, Hutaaka, all sorts of >>humanoids, > >look in the humanoid book. Which has more to tell? > I haven't got the humanoid book, but can I found there Araneas, Lupins, Manscorpions, Phanatons, Werecreatures, Nagpas... ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 19:02:08 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J At 15.09 21/06/96 -0500, you wrote: > >> or a ninja. > >Never detailed in OD&D, but only because they never actually went into >depth on the one place on Mystara that would actually reasonably have them >(Ochalea). > Or the Yasuko Tribal Lands in Davania, and several Rakastan settings. >As does _The Elves of Alfheim._ And I think the Shadow Elves are far >more interesting and less cliched than drow are... > I agree :-) >> All of the Complete Books on _____ are essential to >> good roleplay. > >Not necessarily. How much information does _The Complete Book of >FIghters_ give you on playing a Mongol Horde-type swordsman? A page or >less to handle the kit? Compare that with the information in _The Golden >Khan of Ethengar._ And I find that _The Orcs of Thar_ gives me a far >better feel for being a humanoid than the _Complete Book of Humanoids_ or >whatever it was called for AD&D. > I play also in a Forgotten Realm AD&D campaign, we don't use kits and don't have the Complete Books on ______, but I wouldn't call our a bad roleplaying. BTW: I bought the Complete book of Gnomes and Halflings, just to see how it was and, well, I found it nice but not indispensable. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:16:26 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) > I've been thinking about Ravenloft for a little while, and was > wondering... who do /you/ think is the best candidate to get captured by > the mists? > Let me think.. who's a person of Great Power and Great Evil, equivilent > to Krynn's Lord Soth or Strahd himself... There's the Master.. Bargle > isn't quite powerful enough.. Ludwig Von Hendriks might be fun. :) Prince > Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany would almost be a cliche.. Synn/Dolores > Hillsbury sounds just about right, as does Brannart McGregor.. /maybe/ > Alebane or Thar.. > > Anyway, those are all the candidates for Ravenloft-bait for the moment. > Post your own candidates, and why! :) Zandor would be my first choice. He is personally very powerful, but he politically he means nothing since Haldemar has captured him. The mists could restore his sanity, enough to make him feel guilty about not ressurrecting his own mother when he had the chance and about letting his whole empire sink. It would work better if the mists provided an "Eriadna"'s corpse (not her, of course), that he is always questing for but never reaching, or if the mists grab a glantrian prince who would be locked in an eternal war with him. Maybe both. And nobody would miss him in Mystara, he is no longer a good villain there. Andre acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? Shane pontificated: > > As many of you may know from reading this list or various TSR books, > there is a portal between Mystara and a place called Averoigne on a > variant medieval Earth (where Rad/Etienne and the rest of the family > of d'Ambreville once lived). I've been wondering if there might be a > list of such portals to other (A)D&D 'gaming' worlds, as it were. In the Book of Marverlous Magic, there are a magic item listed that can transfer people to different TSR gameworld such as Gamma World, Space Frontier, Boothill, etc... > > In one of the old D&D modules I once saw, there was a passage between > Mystara and Oerth(?). It involved a cabin or the like in a forest, as > I recall. I've also seen reference (maybe in a gazeteer?) to a similar > portal or portals somewhere in one of the three nations of Soderfjord, > Vestland and Ostland (I can't remember which one). > I'm not sure, but I think the module you are thinking of might be CM6(?) When the Chaos Reign. In it, the players are transported to various early timeperiod of a world, so it will not affected by evil time travallers (ordzs?). Some other portals I can think of includes the inn in DA series that transport characters to age of Blackmoor. Most M-series module have protals that transport people to other places such as the isle of night, seven realm, etc... But I don't know any portal that transport people from Mystara to other D&D game worlds. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Michael Williams Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 15:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S wrote: > Zandor would be my first choice. He is personally very powerful, but > he politically he means nothing since Haldemar has captured him. The > mists could restore his sanity, enough to make him feel guilty about > not ressurrecting his own mother when he had the chance and about > letting his whole empire sink. It would work better if the mists > provided an "Eriadna"'s corpse (not her, of course), that he is always > questing for but never reaching, or if the mists grab a glantrian > prince who would be locked in an eternal war with him. Maybe both. > > And nobody would miss him in Mystara, he is no longer a good villain > there. I'm sorry if I'm very far behind, but the last I've read, Zandor was Eriadne's son and Alphatia was the most powerful empire in the world. When did she die? Why didn't he resurrect her? I must be very far behind, and there are no longer materials available. Sorry if I'm asking a silly question, but what happened? Last I read, Haldemar was just a guy on an Ark. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #136 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 25 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 137 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) > I've been thinking about Ravenloft for a little while, and was > wondering... who do /you/ think is the best candidate to get captured by > the mists? Well, all I know about RL is the book about Lord Soth goign there, which I hated but my choice would be either Soth or Sekhaba, those great Nithian evils who are near imoortality.... Hey, Blitzwing. Tank you-Warpath (heh heh) ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:57:52, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara an > I've been wondering if there might be a > list of such portals to other (A)D&D 'gaming' worlds, as it were. Does the Manual of Planes book cover this? I'm going to get a copy of it soon, so i will check if no one else knows. ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) > > why would a dwarf have any different cleric abilities than any other race? > > It would be kind of silly. Because each race and species have a different oputlook on life and hence on magic and religion. Due to these different approaches, some races are limited to only clerical or druidical or magical skills or even none, while an advanced peoples like most humans can use all these. Dwarves for example are a very non-magical race, believing in things of substance and so they lack the basis for magic use, which is why they have no mages. But elves, a race more concerned with special phenomena and more interested in style than substance, would be a race that gravitates towards magic. So some races are limited to what they can learn and even if 2 races can use the same powers, they will have different approaches. A trollish shaman using clerical magic would base his skills more on sacrifice and violence than a human priestess, who might rely more on prayer. Just my thoughts... Hey, Blitzwing. Tank you-Warpath (heh heh) ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 19:56:08 EDT Subject: RE: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule Daniel Boese writes: > > > >> Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a > > >> complete map ). > > > Unfortunately, as far as I know there is no Gazetteer-like reference for > > >Hule.. although if somebody can compile a list of references, I'd greatly > > >appreciate it.. :) > > > I believe there is a good summary of Hule (plus map) in The Poor Wizard's > > Almanac II. > > discovered missing! Grumbling, and sounds of Almanac III being flipped > through...> > > A thorough - if nowhere near as detailed as the Gazetteers, of course - > summary.. it also points to X5, and Dragon #173.. > > > A 'chattier' description, researched by the Chief Engineer of the > Princess Ark.. it gives a less-accurate, but more colourful description of > the country. > > PS: Does anybody have modules X4 or X5? If so, please email me... I do, and the module X5 - The Temple of Death - does present a full map of Hule, as well as a map of Magden (a town in eastern Hule), the capital (Greatrealm - aka The Temple of Death), the customs of the nation, and social classes. I've only seen one copy of it (mine), I don't know if that helps much, but it's all I can share right now. Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 20:04:08 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Cestia I'd like to know if anyone knows of any published info on the isles of Cestia and/or Oceania, BESIDES THAT GIVEN IN THE PRINCESS ARK SERIES. The info Dragon seems interesting, and I plan on sending my players there - any ideas? Thanks, Geoff P.S. - Does anyone in the Ottawa region have any OD&D modules for sale? I'm looking to buy some. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara an In a message dated 96-06-25 19:59:23 EDT, MRRU13A@prodigy.com (TIMOTHY M DI BONA) writes: << > I've been wondering if there might be a > list of such portals to other (A)D&D 'gaming' worlds, as it were. Does the Manual of Planes book cover this? I'm going to get a copy of it soon, so i will check if no one else knows. >> No, that book does not describe portals located in specific locations on specific worlds. The Manual of the Planes is of interest on its own, but not for answering this question. ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 20:59:12 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Cestia I'm looking for information that was published on Cestia or Oceania - besides that given in the Princess Ark series. Any ideas would be welcome. Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) In a message dated 96-06-25 17:17:33 EDT, williamf@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu (Michael Williams) writes: << I'm sorry if I'm very far behind, but the last I've read, Zandor was Eriadne's son and Alphatia was the most powerful empire in the world. When did she die? Why didn't he resurrect her? I must be very far behind, and there are no longer materials available. Sorry if I'm asking a silly question, but what happened? Last I read, Haldemar was just a guy on an Ark. >> You are way behind. The _Wrath of the Immortals_ boxed set details the earthshaking changes that occurred on Mystara between 1000 AC and 1010 AC. The subsequent _Poor Wizard Almanacs_ give details of events in the post-Wrath world from 1010 AC to 1013 AC, the latest date for which any Mystara information is available. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? In a message dated 96-06-25 11:23:17 EDT, sleepy@peg.apc.org (Shane) writes: << In one of the old D&D modules I once saw, there was a passage between Mystara and Oerth(?). It involved a cabin or the like in a forest, as I recall. >> Close, but not quite accurate. The Blackmoor modules for Expert D&D had an inn that served as a time travel device between 1000 AC and the early Blackmoor era prior to 4000 BC. In 1000 AC, this inn was located in the Broken Lands (and thus saw very little busines ). The Oerth connection, which I believed in until subsequent Mystara developments contradicted it, was based on the existence of a country called Blackmoor in the World of Greyhawk. From that similarity I once concluded that Oerth (the Greyhawk world) was the Known World (not yet known as Mystara) several thousand years earlier. But the Hollow World boxed set, among other sources, set forth enough historical details from the Blackmoor era to destroy that connection. ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 20:50:05 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships TIMOTHY M DI BONA writes: > > Are Airships original to Mystara? Not SpellJamming space fights, just > the ships that stay in Mystara's atmosphere. Just something I was > wondering the other day. As far as I know they are. They're documented in Dawn of the Emperors and in PC2 - Top Ballista. None of these are designed to leave the planet, though it is possible for any flying ship to do so (through a sky vortex). > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 20:45:56 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric Kaviyd@aol.com writes: > > One of Bruce Heard's _Princess Ark_ adventures in Dragon magazine > actually included rules for Elf Clerics. Essentially, they used the same > XP table, hit dice, and saves as other Elves but had Clerical rather than > Mage spells and the ability to turn undead. Their racial advantages > were countered by their much steeper XP requirements. For anyone > playing D&D (vice AD&D), this would seem to be a workable approach. > Which issue is that in? Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 20:37:10 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D vs OD&D TIMOTHY M DI BONA writes: > > >I've been in AD&D groupswhere I was the only person who actually > ROLEplayed (as opposed to > >ROLLplaying). Likewise, my current D&D group consists of PCs with > very rich backgrounds, ambitions, >relationships, and personalities. > > The argument is systems not roleplaying. To clarify what I said > earlier, AD&D allows and suggests better roleplaying doesn't create > it. It's obvious that no one can give you the ability to roleplay > better, but AD&D's rules give more leeway to allow better roleplaying. > Just because the elves of Alfheim can't be priests, no elf in > Mystara can???? Isn't this a bit rediculous? Now i think i got off > the subject. Good point, but I believe the rules should simply be guidelines - therefore, one can accept, or drop, whatever rules they like or don't like. AD&D is a good system - don't get me wrong - but I just don't see how more rules=better roleplaying opportunities. The fundamental unit is the player. I never implied that I follow the ban on elvish clerics in D&D, and yes, to ban them totally might be silly, but only the Alfheim and Shadowelf groups have been detailled, and even so the Shadowelves are very religious - witness the crystal shaman character class. > > >> In AD&D the battles are longer, therefore more graphic, more > roleplaying > >> throughout, and much more realistic. > > >This is also up to the DM. D&D also has nonweapon proficiencies, > >as well as weapon mastery rules. > > which has nothing to do with anything, and everyone knows this. > What's your point? My point is that you can have battles as long as you want in either system, it depends on how the DM decides to run combat - whether you have D&D or AD&D is meaningless. My mentioning of nonweapon proficiencies and weapon mastery rules in D&D is simply to illustrate that D&D has the same potential for detail and complexity. > > >In D&D there are rules for being Lizardmen, Hutaaka, all sorts of > >humanoids, > > look in the humanoid book. Which has more to tell? > Yes, but is more better? > >a magician of various schools (such as witchcraft, elementalism, > dracology > >- see GAZ3 The principalities of Glantri for more info), > > or see Complete Wizard's, or Spells and Magic Book (which goes much > further in depth than GAZ3) Not really, I have the Complete Wizard's Handbook (and Priest's, Thief's, Psionicist's), and I find the discussions on Wild Magic, and the various schools of magic, to have less contextual From ???@??? Wed Jun 26 15:05:02 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA02870; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:58:05 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA05426 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:03:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:03:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199606260303.WAA05426@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #137 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5829d23cceb29e76df441f316018ba15 information than those mentioned in GAZ3. This is my personal preference, mind you. > > the merchant, > kit > > >the sea-wizard, > kit > > > elvish treekeepers > Only in Alfheim and still a kit That's what makes it interesting, a unique sub-class. > > >mystics > undetailed class taken out of AD&D for many reasons(not about to > start on that). It's easily replacible by the Ninja Handbook. > >shamans. > ?? hmmmm isn't this an AD&D supplement? Given in GAZ 12 - The Golden Khan of Ethengar > > >Check out the Gazetteer series from D&D - > > I have it and I think it's probably the best series that TSR has come > up with. However, don't restrict yourself to this. How about > different elves from elsewhere on Mystara or on different worlds in > the prime plane. Do you really think they can be roleplayed the same > as Alfheim elves. Don't act like Elves are an endangered species > only existing in Alfheim. `~ I don't - as a matter of fact, I designed my own D&D world where elves are very prolific and are in fact the master race (but that's a digression). I don't restrict myself to Gazetteers - they are not holy doctrine, but campaign and setting IDEAS, nothing more. I believe that elves can have the same variations as humans can - look in the Gazetteers for examples - Alphatian Shiye elves tend to be far more hard-hearted than Alfheim elves, while the Belcadiz elves of Glantri are very outgoing. The DM is of course free to change these elves, as well as add new ones. So you can't say I follow the "elves are an endangered and typecast species ideology". > > > >you'll find over 4,000 > >years of history and perspectives from elves, shadowelves, dwarves, > >halflings, as well as several human nations. > > which is incredible, but the point isn't just history and > perspectives, it holds myths and many other tools to help you out in > your roleplaying, and if you don't like it then don't use it. That's > why it's optional. > > > In each one are contained secrets, adventure ideas, as well as how > the people of that nation see > >everyone else. > I know this! > > > > I don't mean to sound rude, but you really should take a second > >look at the D&D world. And another thing, all this information I've > told > >you about was published years before D&D became merged with the AD&D > universe. > > > What is this? I don't mean to sound rude either, but it seems like > you don't understand the arguement here. What have you read from > AD&D's publications?, because it sounds like your POV is from an AD&D > ignorant position. I can assure you that I am not ignorant. I have the 2nd Edition PHB and DMG, the above mentioned Handbooks, the Draconomicon, the Castle Guide, the Manual of the Planes (good book), and the Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide. I have played in Forgotten Realms for four years, as well as Spelljammer (a great system - too bad they dropped it), and Dragonlance. Heck, my first character was an AD&D fighter - and, yes, I have run AD&D. What I have been telling you is simply my experience as both a player and a DM in both systems, and I just happen to prefer D&D overall. I respect your opinion, and I'd expect you to respect mine. No one likes people attacking their favourite game, or being perceived to attack it. > > I've read the gaz's and use them as well. My campaign is on Mystara. > I use Cyclopedia weapon specialization, but everything else is AD&D, > with my own original rules added as well. My arguement isn't that > AD&D is better than OD&D, just that AD&D's supplements and > accessories make for a better game. It's all D&D, but why not > consider adding a little spice to the game? > > Thank you for clarifying your position. I am glad also that you appreciate the richness of the Gazetteers - IMO the best supplements ever written for a campaign world. Geoff > > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 20:54:47 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gazeteers and stuff Jason Zavoda writes: > > > > I sell out of print material over the net and I can tell you that > if they have B1-9 or any of the other monster modules A1-4,GDQ1-7, > S1-4 or T1-4 or any of the H series or Vecna Lives for just a little > more than the original price then don't wait a month to go back because > those are some of the most expensive and hard to find Out of Print > items around. > > Jason Zavoda How does one order things from you? Just asking, and I'm interested. Geoff > > On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Joe Duke wrote: > > > Hey all, > > I have recently discovered a p[lace which stioll has alot of > > OD&D and old AD&D stuff. > > A real quick run down: > > ALL Gazeteers except #5 (Elves) > > Western Counrties Road/Trail Map > > Eastern Countries Road/Trail Map > > Kara-Tur Road/Trail Map > > Forgetten Realms Road/Trail Map > > In Search of Adventure, B1-9 in one book > > Many Modules from both AD&D and OD&D > > Feind Folios, Monster Manuals, Player's Handbooks etc... > > all from the 1st AD&D and 2edAD&D. > > I did NOT find WoTI boxed set, but several RED amd PURPLE boxed > > sets of OD&D, (sets 1, 3,4) > > Rules Cyclopeadias > > > > (The Road/Trail maps are the HUGE maps that are like 4'x3') > > > > Lot's of other OLDOLDOLDOLD stuff. All price ever so slightly above > > original retail prices in most cases, in some cases only a few dollars > > above original retail. I am going back there in about 1 month if anyone > > is interested in me picking up anything for them lemme know > > > > Joe > > > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jun 26 01:42:57 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 25 Jun 96 21:42 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA04480 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:53:38 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA04395 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:39:24 -0500 Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA06178 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:39:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA07330 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:01 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:01 -0400 Message-ID: <960625203859_142924944@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara an Content-Length: 513 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-25 19:59:23 EDT, MRRU13A@prodigy.com (TIMOTHY M DI BONA) writes: << > I've been wondering if there might be a > list of such portals to other (A)D&D 'gaming' worlds, as it were. Does the Manual of Planes book cover this? I'm going to get a copy of it soon, so i will check if no one else knows. >> No, that book does not describe portals located in specific locations on specific worlds. The Manual of the Planes is of interest on its own, but not for answering this question. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jun 26 01:51:27 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 25 Jun 96 21:51 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA04498 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:54:14 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA04443 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:43:50 -0500 Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA06176 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:39:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA29939 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:59 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:59 -0400 Message-ID: <960625203957_142924932@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) Content-Length: 809 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-25 17:17:33 EDT, williamf@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu (Michael Williams) writes: << I'm sorry if I'm very far behind, but the last I've read, Zandor was Eriadne's son and Alphatia was the most powerful empire in the world. When did she die? Why didn't he resurrect her? I must be very far behind, and there are no longer materials available. Sorry if I'm asking a silly question, but what happened? Last I read, Haldemar was just a guy on an Ark. >> You are way behind. The _Wrath of the Immortals_ boxed set details the earthshaking changes that occurred on Mystara between 1000 AC and 1010 AC. The subsequent _Poor Wizard Almanacs_ give details of events in the post-Wrath world from 1010 AC to 1013 AC, the latest date for which any Mystara information is available. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jun 26 02:02:54 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 25 Jun 96 22:02 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA04505 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:54:26 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA04445 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:44:14 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA06175 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:39:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA13733 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:43 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:39:43 -0400 Message-ID: <960625203942_142924921@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? Content-Length: 984 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-25 11:23:17 EDT, sleepy@peg.apc.org (Shane) writes: << In one of the old D&D modules I once saw, there was a passage between Mystara and Oerth(?). It involved a cabin or the like in a forest, as I recall. >> Close, but not quite accurate. The Blackmoor modules for Expert D&D had an inn that served as a time travel device between 1000 AC and the early Blackmoor era prior to 4000 BC. In 1000 AC, this inn was located in the Broken Lands (and thus saw very little busines ). The Oerth connection, which I believed in until subsequent Mystara developments contradicted it, was based on the existence of a country called Blackmoor in the World of Greyhawk. From that similarity I once concluded that Oerth (the Greyhawk world) was the Known World (not yet known as Mystara) several thousand years earlier. But the Hollow World boxed set, among other sources, set forth enough historical details from the Blackmoor era to destroy that connection. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 22:28:06 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? Shane writes: > > In one of the old D&D modules I once saw, there was a passage between > Mystara and Oerth(?). It involved a cabin or the like in a forest, as > I recall. I think you're remembering the Inn Out Of Time from some of the Blackmoor modules. Blackmoor is a kingdom in Oerth, which is the ancient past of Mystara, it was a time portal, not a dimension portal. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #137 ***************************** mystara-digest Wednesday, 26 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 138 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:31:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cestia In a message dated 96-06-25 20:49:14 EDT, ggander@chat.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) writes: << I'd like to know if anyone knows of any published info on the isles of Cestia and/or Oceania, BESIDES THAT GIVEN IN THE PRINCESS ARK SERIES. >> I am fairly certain that there is no more information available about Cestia or Oceania beyond those _Dragon_magazine articles. I kept my eyes open for such material myself, and I am sure that none was published by TSR. Of course, there may well be unofficial information that I am not aware of. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 22:41:11 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? Kaviyd@aol.com writes: > The Oerth connection, which I believed in until subsequent Mystara > developments contradicted it, was based on the existence of a country > called Blackmoor in the World of Greyhawk. From that similarity I > once concluded that Oerth (the Greyhawk world) was the Known World > (not yet known as Mystara) several thousand years earlier. But the > Hollow World boxed set, among other sources, set forth enough > historical details from the Blackmoor era to destroy that connection. Still, it was the original truth, they just changed things later.. I believe they had intended it to be that way in the begining. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > The Oerth connection, which I believed in until subsequent Mystara > developments contradicted it, was based on the existence of a country > called Blackmoor in the World of Greyhawk. From that similarity I > once concluded that Oerth (the Greyhawk world) was the Known World > (not yet known as Mystara) several thousand years earlier. But the > Hollow World boxed set, among other sources, set forth enough > historical details from the Blackmoor era to destroy that connection. > I don't think there are any connection between Oerth and Mystara, other than people in TSR like the Blackmoor sitting so much they put in in both worlds. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jun 26 03:49:15 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 25 Jun 96 23:49 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA05253 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:37:42 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA05222 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:34:50 -0500 Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA12650 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:30:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA09882 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:31:18 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:31:18 -0400 Message-ID: <960625223113_225090928@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cestia Content-Length: 542 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-25 20:49:14 EDT, ggander@chat.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) writes: << I'd like to know if anyone knows of any published info on the isles of Cestia and/or Oceania, BESIDES THAT GIVEN IN THE PRINCESS ARK SERIES. >> I am fairly certain that there is no more information available about Cestia or Oceania beyond those _Dragon_magazine articles. I kept my eyes open for such material myself, and I am sure that none was published by TSR. Of course, there may well be unofficial information that I am not aware of. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:37:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric The Elf Cleric is described in Dragon #178, dated February 1992. The same "Princess Ark" article also describes Elf Paladins and Half-Elves in D&D terms. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jun 26 05:36:59 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 26 Jun 96 01:36 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA06188 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:55:03 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA06114 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:39:18 -0500 Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA20469 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:37:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA19991 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:37:19 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:37:19 -0400 Message-ID: <960626003717_225186601@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric Content-Length: 154 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com The Elf Cleric is described in Dragon #178, dated February 1992. The same "Princess Ark" article also describes Elf Paladins and Half-Elves in D&D terms. ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 14:46:13 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named Anne At 13.52 23/06/96 -0700, you wrote: > > An administrative note: This topic has wandered a bit too far off >topic, from being a comparison of D&D and AD&D to a discussion of AD&D >handbooks and such. So, I would like to see this moved to private e-mail. >If anyone wants to respond, please address your replies to me and Timothy. >If anyone else is interested, e-mail me and I will forward them to you. > Thank you. > Ooops ! I read this mail only after posting twice on this topic. Excuse me ! ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 14:46:07 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Volo? (was: Mystara, AD&D, and Green Jellyfish named , Anne) At 19.04 23/06/96 -0400, you wrote: > So, does that mean the Known World doesn't include Sind, the Great Waste, >Yavdlom, the various Savage Coast nations, the northern part of Davania, >Alphatia, and western Skothar, all of which have been detailed by TSR? IMO yes, because the KW is what appeared in the map included in the Expert Boxed Set. > Let me see.. there's the Savage Coast, the elves up in the northwest part >of Brun (where the Feadils in Alfheim came from), Alphatia, the >partly-elven people of Yavdlom, the elves of Graakhalia under the Great >Waste, the Shadow Elves underneath the KW, the half-elf, half-ogres just >past the Vulture Peninsula, the aquatic elves in the Sea of Dread, the >Hollow World elves, and so on... > Can you tell me something more about this half-elves of the Vulture Peninsula ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:02:53 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] DA5, City of Blackmoor (fwd) I asked TSR about the unpublished module DA5: City of Blackmoor a while ago, and the response finally arrived... - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:52:30 -0400 From: TSRDavid@aol.com To: dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca Cc: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: DA5, City of Blackmoor Dear Daniel: I've inquired after DA5, City of Blackmoor, and I've learned that it was never designed in the first place. In the early years, TSR was not as good at publishing everything it advertsied as it is today. Therefore, I'm afraid that you won't see it on line or elsewhere. Sorry to let you down. Thanks for letting know what you're interested in. Your comments and opinions are always welcome. Sincerely, David Wise Director of Creative Services ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J Correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember it there WERE no level limits at all in 1st edition AD&D; furthermore 2nd edition AD&D came out before the rules cyclopedia anyway. I think the new rules you mean are the redone PH and the player's and dm's option books , which constitute a kind of AD&D 2 and a half, as it were. m@2 On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > One more point: > > If you compare the 1st and 2nd edition AD&D rules with the D&D Rules > Cyclopedia, it is obvious that the D&D Rules Cyclopedia influenced the > development of 2nd edition AD&D. Take as one obvious example the > higher level limits in the 2nd edition -- that is what made the conversion > of Mystara to AD&D possible. As many problems as there were with > the conversion of Mystara to 2nd edition AD&D, the conversion would > not have worked at all if AD&D was still using the ridiculously low 1st > edition level limits. > ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships yes. On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > Are Airships original to Mystara? Not SpellJamming space fights, just > the ships that stay in Mystara's atmosphere. Just something I was > wondering the other day. > ------------------------------ From: Electronic Postmaster Date: 26 Jun 96 15:05:30 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Undeliverable message Your message could not be delivered for the following reason: Mailbox 100542.2252 is currently full. Please resend your message at a later time. - --- Returned message --- Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA25446; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:05:10 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA09716 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:23:27 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA09646 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:10:42 -0500 Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA00587 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:07:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by freenet.npiec.on.ca via SMTP (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) for id OAA04446; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:02:54 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:02:53 -0400 (EST) From: Daniel Boese To: Mystara Mailing List Subject: [Mystara] DA5, City of Blackmoor (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@IO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@IO.COM I asked TSR about the unpublished module DA5: City of Blackmoor a while ago, and the response finally arrived... - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:52:30 -0400 From: TSRDavid@aol.com To: dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca Cc: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: DA5, City of Blackmoor Dear Daniel: I've inquired after DA5, City of Blackmoor, and I've learned that it was never designed in the first place. In the early years, TSR was not as good at publishing everything it advertsied as it is today. Therefore, I'm afraid that you won't see it on line or elsewhere. Sorry to let you down. Thanks for letting know what you're interested in. Your comments and opinions are always welcome. Sincerely, David Wise Director of Creative Services ------------------------------ From: Electronic Postmaster Date: 26 Jun 96 15:12:06 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Undeliverable message Your message could not be delivered for the following reason: Mailbox 100542.2252 is currently full. Please resend your message at a later time. - --- Returned message --- Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA25580; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:11:53 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA09721 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:24:15 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA09682 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:22:12 -0500 Received: from orion.oac.uci.edu (mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu [128.200.80.20]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01494 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:21:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from mlevy@localhost) by orion.oac.uci.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id LAA12138; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:21:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara, AD&D, and Green J In-Reply-To: <960622051151_561640893@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember it there WERE no level limits at all in 1st edition AD&D; furthermore 2nd edition AD&D came out before the rules cyclopedia anyway. I think the new rules you mean are the redone PH and the player's and dm's option books , which constitute a kind of AD&D 2 and a half, as it were. m@2 On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > One more point: > > If you compare the 1st and 2nd edition AD&D rules with the D&D Rules > Cyclopedia, it is obvious that the D&D Rules Cyclopedia influenced the > development of 2nd edition AD&D. Take as one obvious example the > higher level limits in the 2nd edition -- that is what made the conversion > of Mystara to AD&D possible. As many problems as there were with > the conversion of Mystara to 2nd edition AD&D, the conversion would > not have worked at all if AD&D was still using the ridiculously low 1st > edition level limits. > ------------------------------ From: Electronic Postmaster Date: 26 Jun 96 15:23:31 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Undeliverable message Your message could not be delivered for the following reason: Mailbox 100542.2252 is currently full. Please resend your message at a later time. - --- Returned message --- Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA29902; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:23:19 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA09785 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:37:35 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA09780 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:37:12 -0500 Received: from orion.oac.uci.edu (mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu [128.200.80.20]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01979 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:27:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from mlevy@localhost) by orion.oac.uci.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id LAA12635; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships In-Reply-To: <199606221844.OAA16566@mime2.prodigy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com yes. On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > Are Airships original to Mystara? Not SpellJamming space fights, just > the ships that stay in Mystara's atmosphere. Just something I was > wondering the other day. > ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:06:27 -0300 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Hule maps I was reading the X5, Temple of Death, module and the map made me curious. There is the description of Magden, a city with 4000 inhabitants in the module and it says to say it is the first city the PCs enter, as I mentioned in a previous posting. The locations of the cities are included, but not its names. So, I searched all my material for other maps of Hule and I wasn't able to find any complete one, but there are parts of Hule mapped in other places. What I discovered is that there are two versions of the map, the Champions, Almanacs one and the Red Steel. The first version gives us maps of eastern Hule with names for the four cities in the original unnamed map. Magden is the easternmost city, the first one you would meet if you crossed the pass under the Black Mountains and followed the road from there to central Hule. The second version (Red Steel and Savage Baronies) shows us southern Hule, with just two of these cities. Magden is there, but now its is the southernmost city, the first one you would meet if coming by boat and travelling north from the harbor. The name of the other city doesn't exist in the first version. The positions for them, however, are the same as in the original map. Obviouly, someone didn't use the older maps when doing these new ones. For me, the first version should be the right one, since the place for Magden in it is the most probable route for any PCs following the module. However, the second version maps are more detailed in the region they cover. I will rule IMC that the rest of it is correct, but as you travel north, the city names are given wrongly, thanks to Hule's deceiving habit. Maybe the Master has judged wise to provide wrong maps of central Hule to his neighboring nations and this way the Red Steel campaign has good maps only about southern Hule, a place several of their merchants have visited. The maps in the Alamanacs and Champions of Mystara were written by a group of adventurers who entered Hule trying to destroy the Master (X5), so they are the correct ones. Anyway, I would like to know what you think about it. Maybe Ann could shed some light on this issue. Andre acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br P.S. Is it just me, or everybody else is receiving many of the postings to the list twice? I get almost half of them twice, the second one with warning messages about undeliverable to someone. This didn't use to happen when I subscribed the list, but now it is too common. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 16:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Recieving Postings Twice... As one person pointed out, people will recieve some posts twice, especially posts they sent. This problem is known, but nothing has been done about it. The guys at IO have given me little feedback. I may be possible they don't know how to fix it. I get the same thing when I post to the GURPS mailing list, also on IO. For the moment we are going to have to tough it out. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Volo? On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > > I think such a work would be an excellent addition to Mystara, one for > > each country. I mean, what do we really know about some of the > > establishments in the town of Penahaligon? Or most of the towns in > > Glantri? > Hmm... I'm willing to collaborate with this.. Would this be a 'Justin's > Almanac' style thing, with correspondants covering each area? (Or would it > actually /be/ Justin & co.?) Although the Volo series is written as if Volo himself is the author, I would probably prefer to see it written as source material. It is easier to sit done and explain details in a straight forward manner than trying to write them as if someone else. As much as I would like to work on it, I don't have the time at them moment. If I was actually running a Mystara campaign it would make it easier. As it is I am already running two campaigns (GURPS Vampire and Spelljammer), while playing in another. Still, you might be able to get some enthusiasm worked up in other people... > I can just imagine a cross-Glantri wine & cheese tour... ;) Now _that_ would be interesting. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Cthulhu, eh? I'll try and backstab him" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] New Mystic classes On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Windows 95 INNOVA Media User pontificated: > > > > Ah, I don't think they will fit. Each type is different specialist class, you see. > > The list is somewhere around thirty pages in AmiPro III. > > > > George > > > > P.S. If you are still interested, I may post them one at a time... > > > I guess you email server have a size limit? I personally am still > very interested in that, so if it is not too much trouble, please > post away. If you don't want to post all of them, perhaps post > one or two of your best one, so we can see what type of stuffs > you did. Thanks. There really wouldn't be a problem with posting them one at a time. Or, they could be sent to me and I can put them with the other downloadable files, so anyone interested can retrieve them. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #138 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 28 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 139 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Daniel Boese Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 00:35:34 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Volo? > Although the Volo series is written as if Volo himself is the author, I > would probably prefer to see it written as source material. It is easier > to sit done and explain details in a straight forward manner than trying > to write them as if someone else. > As much as I would like to work on it, I don't have the time at them > moment. If I was actually running a Mystara campaign it would make it > easier. As it is I am already running two campaigns (GURPS Vampire and > Spelljammer), while playing in another. > Still, you might be able to get some enthusiasm worked up in other > people... Hey, you Mystara people! Want to add your own ideas to a net.book? All you have to do is make something up! That's right, just flex your imagination that tiny little bit, and think up something! A tavern, a brand of wine, heck, even just the name of some poor sod! Oh, you also have to either email it or post it to the list! (Does that count, Leroy? :) ) > > I can just imagine a cross-Glantri wine & cheese tour... ;) > Now _that_ would be interesting. Alright then, let's assume that Joshuan, as part of his research for his next Almanac, is heading up to Glantri to do a cheese and wine tour (and incidentally visit every locality worth visiting, and some that aren't)... Everybody! Pick a place somewhere in Glantri, and place your tavern there, maybe even detailing various beverages or such that happen to be there.. and I /do/ mean You in particular. :) Remember, this is the only way to get more Mystara information, and You are one of the few people keeping the world alive... - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 22:51 PDT Subject: [Mystara] that new Mystara website Someone mentioned a new Mystara website a while ago. What was the URL? Is it good? David M. darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 23:04 PDT Subject: RE: [Mystara] Wheel-Locks - Hule At 12:33 PM 6/23/96 -0400, you wrote: >> >> Also does anyone know where I can find complete information on Hule ( and a >> >> complete map ). >> > Unfortunately, as far as I know there is no Gazetteer-like reference for >> >Hule.. although if somebody can compile a list of references, I'd greatly >> >appreciate it.. :) > >> I believe there is a good summary of Hule (plus map) in The Poor Wizard's >> Almanac II. > The best Hule map is probably in X4 or X5, whichever it was that has the map. There is one in Red Steel, but I compared the two because I thought they looked different, and they do. Has anyone else noticed that? In TSR's AD&D Mystara releases, they changed the geography a tiny bit in various areas, and even names. For example, they call the Wulfholdes or whatever the Wulfwodes or something (these two names are from memory, but I know for sure they changed it). It annoyed me when they did that. David M. darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 02:47:15 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] New Mystic classes - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB63D2.FCC6F580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, here is the first, > Windows 95 INNOVA Media User pontificated: > > > > Ah, I don't think they will fit. Each type is different specialist class, you see. > > The list is somewhere around thirty pages in AmiPro III. > > > > George > > > > P.S. If you are still interested, I may post them one at a time... > > > I guess you email server have a size limit? I personally am still > very interested in that, so if it is not too much trouble, please > post away. If you don't want to post all of them, perhaps post > one or two of your best one, so we can see what type of stuffs > you did. Thanks. There really wouldn't be a problem with posting them one at a time. Or, they could be sent to me and I can put them with the other downloadable files, so anyone interested can retrieve them. Mystic of Vanya As a normal mystic except that the martial art is called the "Gentle Wind Style". They use a sword as the art has the following chart: Gentle Wind Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Gentle Wind BS ---- ---- Basic Skill with Sword SK ---- ---- Skilled with Sword [P=H] SM EX ---- ---- Expert with Sword MS ---- ---- Master with Sword 1H SH GM ---- ---- Grand Master with Sword There are additional manuevers which can be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. 1) Feint: this is an attack designed to draw the opponent out, the opponent's next attack is +2 to hit you; your next attack is a +4 to hit and damage 2) Blinding Cut: this attack causes blood to flow into the target's eyes, all attacks made by the target are at -5 to hit for a full minute (the time it takes to wipe the blood away). 3) Bleeding Cut: this attack causes the wound to bleed one hit point per round until healed or death. 4) Quick Strike: this attack is at -4 to hit, if successful the attack is so swift that there is no chance for a deflect or parry 5) Blindfighting: this is an Int based skill allowing the character to fight in darkness or to fight invisible foes without detriment. 6) Arterial Cut: this attack causes the target to lose a d3 hit points per round. 7) The Gentle Wind: this is a Dex based manuever allowing the character to move at full speed and strike every opponent within arm's reach of the path. Of course the mystic is not required to pay for these skills: Level 1: Basic Level 14: Arterial Cut Level 2: +1 Damage Level 15: Grand Master Level 3: Feint Level 16: The Gentle Wind Level 4: Blinding Cut Level 5: Bleeding Cut Level 6: Skilled Level 7: +1 Damage Level 8: Quick Strike Level 9: Expert Level 10: +1 Damage Level 11: Blindfighting Level 12: Master Level 13: +1 Damage Hope this helps, George - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB63D2.FCC6F580 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiAHAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAIQAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gTmV3IE15c3Rp YyBjbGFzc2VzAHsLAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcGABsAAgAvAA8ABAA4AQEggAMADgAAAMwHBgAbAAIAKwAD AAQAKAEBCYABACEAAAAzMTg5Q0E2N0M0Q0ZDRjExOUJFQzQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAAWBwEDkAYA3AgA ABAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQDAohbc/GO7AR4AcAABAAAA IQAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gTmV3IE15c3RpYyBjbGFzc2VzAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7Y/zb 5GfKiTLPxBHPm+xERVNUAAAAAAMABhBSo1bSAwAHECcIAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABXRUxMLEhFUkVJ U1RIRUZJUlNULFdJTkRPV1M5NUlOTk9WQU1FRElBVVNFUlBPTlRJRklDQVRFRDpBSCxJRE9OVFRI SU5LVEhFWVdJTExGSVRFQUNIVFlQRUlTRElGRkVSRU5UAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAiQcAAIUHAABMDwAA TFpGdfjYJuP/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3Rl bQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EWDzI1NQKACoENsQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRRBQvyYwBAIFdlbGxI LCBoBJBlIAQAICJ0G1AgZmkRoHQswwqFCotsaTM2DfAZ3LUTUG8T0GMFQAqFPhrgEQuAZG93BCA5 NSDASU5OT1ZBBdAJgNkHMCBVEbAFwHACIQaQyGljYRPQZDofdx/gSSKpQWgbMEkgIDBuLicFQBvQ C4BrG8J5IAcD8BsQHAF0LiAgReUA0GgbwHlwG4MhQA3Q0xthAjAgcyaQYwcxBADdBUBjC2AEEBsw eQhgJ4B1CeAuIqlUG+En8xuhc/8DcAfQG1MKwAhgICAksgAgOyVQCrBnB5ELgBSwbWl+UANgIKAt ICkqLWkMgiA8R2UFsCxALW8jA1Au8lMl8ElmKKMKwBuAE8DfJYILgBPQFhATwWQkIgDAzSwBbygR G9FtIAIgKyHvBUAhYCIAB4AuNMAvfx/R/SRAZwpQBBEoshPgC3ADIH0hkXYhoRGAN4A0UQCQevMq AizAdD8mACRAJpARoOsCIAdAbCVQYTPQMdMfd/83gSVQMjgschvQIlAbMCqgbxuQMTAl0BuSbh8Q G8BvuS0AbXUmQitRAmBlGzCdC1BlKGAvaDNTYXczIP8l8TElJGQ/4CdhPXA/dSWRvm8xMDOiPnEE kBGAcAQgzzNSH3cz8gWxdHctAEIhuyixBcBiMoEz4jxTdxuA/yJAA6Ao8SVgPCEmZEIhE8CadQ3Q cx93QHNpZCXx8yngAHBrcykmCoVKUinhjxtxFhA5g0SAdWxkJIL/RTA0UR7xPkEz0APwG9AzQ50L gGcznzShCoVPchsw/yUjBaBLkUvyEbBBNAeAKzDnK4EkQEYycHUzhUzTG9IvHxAbUQqFIDFuFaBh ZP8BoD5QHAE+UCiBPHEAcCiw/zQBOzlGMhYQPgAIkDfhTaLvKSYZfxqFV0VNE7EiMEIS6lZVAWEc fEEEICFgPTAWcgDAAyBtWbRleGP+ZQUxPBIbwwDAACAHMSsxvypTIkAbEDuxG9FXRSIvEL8CMFQx IAIGACZwPlAiSOP9JUF1EbA4AkSACyArMBu0/14iEYAbs1dFAhAbECBATWJ9EXJ0IpZkr1dyX7kc fFQ1BZBoAwBxClAuw0x2+xXwLtJEOdAsMWkEDcAJ8PcRsC7DLsNTJ6QmECcRH0BPR9Zl/wswLtJC Uy7DLTduUWp4blxCKGBZ4VNruyWCTNNTYcIcfWqIS27vH3NOcHM7sXDfV0VbUD2USF0GAE0uw0VY c//5eE5FeDkhQPF1v3H+BeB7eP99Dk0oYDJReo8c1jHqSAYASGp4R3eUfS+CafxHclESfu9lH2dK KvUrId5kIUAiADliMwFuClA3gX8EICrgIjAmUEYyTAFRsHK3EXERsHWFc3CCV0VzFaD/a+Bg1GFh iHg9sCgRibssgQ9h0QSQSX0uwzEpIEb6ZTIxOiSyLGFbgQOgIlDdAZBjJQANsACQZzQAK5HdLQBk hAAH4FKTcCHRJ1L3CGAcV5LKJz0RXKA0QZFUfRuhKxHgQWEk0AVAKLE7z0TUlTxXRSFgKzSWRlES r1QAaXKOzy7wMpAAQh2w+yAgTWJDUcCQdZFFIkBhUf8EIAJgPYCSIxjgIEAyIi0A/18IAZAvQZTy JUBUkkHikUT3jPFT8BuAYiVQG9KfVId0vQVALSCQllRjN5iSZkuQ71wRC4BRwBuAKKGDB3E8wv0B kGsHkUFhA/AmkRvSnYTtP9Ipjr8u4TObUgngm7//nMob0ktxK4ItAD5BO7Ez8v+jCCHQMjE5Ekrw K2MrcDHh/xtBB0Cr4lNxPrAb0KdvLuHyNJAAUXUiMCUAYHAFEH+lsKmcqdOCIJjmGzA8oXP/PcBc wAQQpAFe+ZWIPHED4d8BgF0HG3Q9MGQyblzAo5V/GMIfMgWxV3E7AK9fLvA1s5tVHBBnaE1SkHtJ J2H+YoozitNB0mPkXwgRcgDQn4SCneK6sixyVAByazQAVwQRREK+2HYEAGlUI2//B5BXRUzSk5GR oVaBB4ACMPuvTy7hNpAABxAyUV3iqW+fqnmhxUFhFaBhY2QzrE7vQxGtZsM/LuE3kAAp4l+5+5B5 afF4vCWIdrzvvf4EYP834gVApAMnkTuxURITwLEy/zbgOuOTB0zSC4CYRlvglQG/SwEmQUIkLBGv Lxx8TzEw/0/REaFdVFm0PQUWEGhQHCB/khRXcCVQo6Ib0WFhitNz7WSdTFaxAyAxkHBwE2p4e9zt 27U0kHDEqtrf2+EyvZBwKxrQaVndP9vTNZBw94P634/b4TOQcJAj4Y/drf42kHDLTeQv2+HekZt6 6Q//2+HjMaja6z/b4efhdSXtb93b4Tfg2e9P2+E4kHCwunvxT9vhOZBweiTzf9viMP/wn9s93BK6 avdf2+LgwePP79uI5WH2z1dUSJMAVtIbob0bUGxDABxuLt8YgQABsAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAA AABAAAcw4LPRRfxjuwFAAAgw4LPRRfxjuwEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAL0k - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB63D2.FCC6F580-- ------------------------------ From: Alex Jazayeri Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:36:24 +0100 Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Mystic classes Wow, that new mystic is quite well done. Especially interesting are the new manoeuvers. Quite something. Well done, old chap. Alex ------------------------------ From: TSRInc@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:03:03 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Question from TSR: layout for online Savage Coast? In case you didn't know it, TSR is releasing three products under it's Odyssey line this year; all three are for the Savage Coast area of Mystara. However, unlike most products, the Savage Coast materials are _only_ going to be released online, in an electronic format, free of charge, through all TSR sites (AOL, GEnie, ftp.mpgn.com). I am working on the format of the Savage Coast Campaign Setting material that will be placed online next month, and I wanted your input on a certain aspect of its formatting. Currently, the document is set up for printing, in that it has two columns of text. Would you prefer the uploaded version of the doc to have two columns, so you could print it and have it look just like any other printed product, or would you prefer it to be formatted as a single wide column for easy reading as an electronic document? (Sorry, we're not going to do it both ways....). [FYI, the file will be in Microsoft Interchange format (aka Rich Text Format, RTF), so formatting such as boldface, underline, etc., will be preserved.] Please reply to me personally, as I get the list in DIGEST mode, and I'd want to make sure I didn't miss any responses. - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ *The Gen Con 1996 registration book is online at the sites above* ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 09:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) I'm only passingly familiar with RAvenloft, can you explainhow the mists capture people? are they attracted to themost evil, themost powerful? are they a form of punishment by theimmortals? m@2 On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > I've been thinking about Ravenloft for a little while, and was From ???@??? Sun Jun 30 14:17:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA13236; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:32:02 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA24286 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:18:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:18:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199606280918.EAA24286@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #139 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 9e0d1a2e7342c9ee35bd9a3131d00438 > wondering... who do /you/ think is the best candidate to get captured by > the mists? > Let me think.. who's a person of Great Power and Great Evil, equivilent > to Krynn's Lord Soth or Strahd himself... There's the Master.. Bargle > isn't quite powerful enough.. Ludwig Von Hendriks might be fun. :) Prince > Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany would almost be a cliche.. Synn/Dolores > Hillsbury sounds just about right, as does Brannart McGregor.. /maybe/ > Alebane or Thar.. > > Anyway, those are all the candidates for Ravenloft-bait for the moment. > Post your own candidates, and why! :) > > -- > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca > > ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jun 27 16:21:48 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 27 Jun 96 12:21 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA16730 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:07:43 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA16722 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:06:30 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10901 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:02:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA03704 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:03:03 -0400 From: TSRInc@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:03:03 -0400 Message-ID: <960627110302_226139156@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Question from TSR: layout for online Savage Coast? Content-Length: 1391 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In case you didn't know it, TSR is releasing three products under it's Odyssey line this year; all three are for the Savage Coast area of Mystara. However, unlike most products, the Savage Coast materials are _only_ going to be released online, in an electronic format, free of charge, through all TSR sites (AOL, GEnie, ftp.mpgn.com). I am working on the format of the Savage Coast Campaign Setting material that will be placed online next month, and I wanted your input on a certain aspect of its formatting. Currently, the document is set up for printing, in that it has two columns of text. Would you prefer the uploaded version of the doc to have two columns, so you could print it and have it look just like any other printed product, or would you prefer it to be formatted as a single wide column for easy reading as an electronic document? (Sorry, we're not going to do it both ways....). [FYI, the file will be in Microsoft Interchange format (aka Rich Text Format, RTF), so formatting such as boldface, underline, etc., will be preserved.] Please reply to me personally, as I get the list in DIGEST mode, and I'd want to make sure I didn't miss any responses. - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ *The Gen Con 1996 registration book is online at the sites above* ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 18:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question from TSR: layout for online Savage Coast? Greetings, On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 TSRInc@aol.com wrote: > I am working on the format of the Savage Coast Campaign Setting > material that will be placed online next month, and I wanted your > input on a certain aspect of its formatting. First I'd like to thank you for requesting this input. It's nice to see that you are concerned about feedback even for a relatively minor aspect. I would prefer a single-column format for two reasons: 1) it's easier to read electronically and 2) converting from single to multi-column formatting (and vice-versa) within a word processing program is simple. Thus, I think that it should be put in the form easiest for electronic viewing since it is easy to reformat for printing, but not easy to reformat for electronic viewing. Thanks, David Leland ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 19:39:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Volo? - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > Everybody! Pick a place somewhere in Glantri, and place your tavern there, OK, already! I'll post something this weekend! Sheesh... Shelby ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question from TSR: layout for online Savage Coast? I apologize for sending my opinion on the formatting to the list. I mistakenly thought I was sending it to Sean when in fact selecting the Reply-To field is of course mystara-l@io.com. D.L. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:07:25 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran geography In a message dated 96-06-27 03:39:00 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << In TSR's AD&D Mystara releases, they changed the geography a tiny bit in various areas, and even names. >> Some of these changes are errors, while others are a result of changes that occurred between 1000 and 1010 AC. Among the changes that are not errors: "Grand Duchy of Karameikos" to "Kingdom of Karameikos". "Specularum" to "Mirros". "Alfheim" to "Aengmor". Thyatian Empire greatly reduced in size. Alphatian continent obliterated. Broken Lands expanded westward. Two Glantrian principalities obliterated, but several more added. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:06:22 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Level limits in AD&D In a message dated 96-06-26 15:04:35 EDT, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matthew Levy) writes: << Correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember it there WERE no level limits at all in 1st edition AD&D; furthermore 2nd edition AD&D came out before the rules cyclopedia anyway. I think the new rules you mean are the redone PH and the player's and dm's option books , which constitute a kind of AD&D 2 and a half, as it were. >> Okay, I will correct you. The original D&D and 1st edition AD&D both had much more stringent level limits than 2nd edition AD&D. Half-Orc Fighters were limited to 10th level; all other demi-human Fighters were even more limited -- limits ranged from 9th level for Dwarves with 18+ strength down to 4th level for Halflings with normal strength. Elf Magic- Users could not exceed level 11, and Half-Elf Clerics could not exceed level 5. In the original D&D, the limits were either the same or one level lower. Does any of this seem like "no level limits at all" to you? As for 2nd edition AD&D, it came out before the D&D Rules Cyclopedia but after the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master sets, which contained most of the material that would later appear in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. Thus, the rules contained in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia do indeed pre-date the 2nd edition AD&D rules. As for "AD&D 2 1/2", the latest printing of the PHB did not change any of the rules from the original edition of the 2nd edition PHB, and none of the Player's Option or DM's Option books tinkered with the level limits, which were the biggest change between first and second editions. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jun 28 04:01:19 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 28 Jun 96 00:01 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA22291 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:24:44 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA22182 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:09:25 -0500 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07824 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:06:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA07022 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:07:25 -0400 From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:07:25 -0400 Message-ID: <960627230723_341991589@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran geography Content-Length: 630 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-27 03:39:00 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << In TSR's AD&D Mystara releases, they changed the geography a tiny bit in various areas, and even names. >> Some of these changes are errors, while others are a result of changes that occurred between 1000 and 1010 AC. Among the changes that are not errors: "Grand Duchy of Karameikos" to "Kingdom of Karameikos". "Specularum" to "Mirros". "Alfheim" to "Aengmor". Thyatian Empire greatly reduced in size. Alphatian continent obliterated. Broken Lands expanded westward. Two Glantrian principalities obliterated, but several more added. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jun 28 04:18:33 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 28 Jun 96 00:18 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA22271 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:24:11 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA22183 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:09:27 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07823 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:06:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA10967 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:06:22 -0400 From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:06:22 -0400 Message-ID: <960627230622_341991559@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Level limits in AD&D Content-Length: 1605 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-26 15:04:35 EDT, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matthew Levy) writes: << Correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember it there WERE no level limits at all in 1st edition AD&D; furthermore 2nd edition AD&D came out before the rules cyclopedia anyway. I think the new rules you mean are the redone PH and the player's and dm's option books , which constitute a kind of AD&D 2 and a half, as it were. >> Okay, I will correct you. The original D&D and 1st edition AD&D both had much more stringent level limits than 2nd edition AD&D. Half-Orc Fighters were limited to 10th level; all other demi-human Fighters were even more limited -- limits ranged from 9th level for Dwarves with 18+ strength down to 4th level for Halflings with normal strength. Elf Magic- Users could not exceed level 11, and Half-Elf Clerics could not exceed level 5. In the original D&D, the limits were either the same or one level lower. Does any of this seem like "no level limits at all" to you? As for 2nd edition AD&D, it came out before the D&D Rules Cyclopedia but after the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master sets, which contained most of the material that would later appear in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. Thus, the rules contained in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia do indeed pre-date the 2nd edition AD&D rules. As for "AD&D 2 1/2", the latest printing of the PHB did not change any of the rules from the original edition of the 2nd edition PHB, and none of the Player's Option or DM's Option books tinkered with the level limits, which were the biggest change between first and second editions. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 01:29 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) At 10:57 AM 6/21/96 +0100, you wrote: >why would a dwarf have any different cleric abilities than any other race? > It would be kind of silly. Not really, it could be a sub-class/kit, a unique interesting variation. (Now, that wouldn't have to apply to all dwarves, just whoever wanted to play like that.) David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 01:29 PDT Subject: RE: [Mystara] New Mystic classes At 02:47 AM 6/27/96 -0500, you wrote: >Well, here is the first, > Which I think was excellent! Quick, do the rest! I'm looking forward to it, and I'm sure most of the rest of you are too. Are you doing a bunch of different fighting styles? Have you seen the Oriental Adventures fighting styles, or that Palladium book that has a lot, Ninjas and Superspies I think? These would be quite useful in designing more Mystaran Mystics... David M. darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #139 ***************************** From ???@??? Sun Jun 30 14:18:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA24152; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 01:29:52 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA25869 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:55:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:55:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199606281455.JAA25869@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #140 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: e109c88a1c655a55866a9e892a545824 mystara-digest Friday, 28 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 140 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 01:29 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] that funny "system" debate At 03:09 PM 6/21/96 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > >> AD&D is a more complex game. It makes you think and work much harder >> than OD&D rules. However, If you enjoy roleplaying, and not hack and >> slash, AD&D is far better. > >I think this is a common misconception. Certainly the AD&D rules are >slightly more complex. But nothing in them makes them more amenable to >roleplay, in my opinion. And, to tell the truth, I've gotten more feel >for and interest in a world via the OD&D-oriented Gazeteers than any of >the AD&D game world supplements I've bought. > I think this is a strange discussion. People are debating AD&D rules vs an OD&D world. It doesn't make much sense. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 01:28 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres and Glantri... At 11:49 AM 6/20/96 -0400, you wrote: >Jonathan M Thompson pontificated: >> >> It looked to me that MYSTARA would have done better in AD&D if they hadnt >> insisted on all those CDs to put in all the products. I cant recall if I >> ever ulisted to the CD. > >The Karameiko CD are interesting to listen to once ... You can hear >the bad acting through voice alone :) The Red Steel CD is mostly >music, so I don't mind it that much. Mark of Amber CD is probably >nice to add favor to the adventure, although I haven't ran the >module yet. I don't really understand why they put CDs on Mystara >line either. It was suppose to be a product line for beginner and >younger players, one would think the price should be kept low ... > And, one would think they wouldn't use Mystara, the world with 36th level and PC immortality, for beginner and younger players. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 01:29 PDT Subject: [Mystara] unpublished stuff At 10:31 PM 6/25/96 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-06-25 20:49:14 EDT, ggander@chat.carleton.ca (Geoff >Gander) writes: > ><< I'd like to know if anyone knows of any published info on the > isles of Cestia and/or Oceania, BESIDES THAT GIVEN IN THE >PRINCESS ARK SERIES. >> > >I am fairly certain that there is no more information available about >Cestia or Oceania beyond those _Dragon_magazine articles. I kept >my eyes open for such material myself, and I am sure that none >was published by TSR. Of course, there may well be unofficial >information that I am not aware of. > > Does anyone know if TSR has lots of unpublished Mystara stuff? I've heard of filing cabinets chock full of info. on Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms that has never been published and probably never will be... What a waste, just sitting there gathering dust(if it's true (Does anyone know?))! It would be nice if TSR at least had some scanned and put on ftp... David M. darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 01:29 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf-Cleric At 07:39 PM 6/21/96 -0500, you wrote: > >>>I can use Cleric rules for Elfs??? (in D&D) >> >>As DM you can do what you like most, but if you sticks to the D&D >rules >>there aren't Elf-Clerics. On the other hand in Gaz5 (Alfheim) you >can found >>the Treekeepers, the elvish version of clerics (well, not exactly... >). > You can play the game however you want as long as you have fun. Isn't it logical for any race to be able to be what class they want (within reason)? If it something sounds logical and playable and fun, by all means, do it! They are *NOT* rules, they are *GUIDELINES*. That is one of the only few rules. > >convert to AD&D and you'll be all set with the elf clerics. Don't be >tied down to Alfheim. It's not worth eliminating a class. > Better yet, don't convert or conform to *anything* unless you truly want to. Use the best rules from AD&D, OD&D (as long as they fit together well), other systems, and your brain. I find that this works *much* better than any system. David M. darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 01:28 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and other worlds Speaking of portals between Mystara and other worlds, what about portals between Mystara and other D&D worlds, namely Thunder Rift, and the world of the Abelaats? The DM screen for D&D with the Thuder Rift/Mystara adventure was what got me started on Mystara, luckily. That was one TSR marketing scheme I'm thankful of. I thought it was pretty neat. That reminds me, it also had Abelaat's crystals in it. Does anyone know if the Abelaats' world is a plane/dimension published somewhere, and/or when the Abelaat invasion took place? I wonder what happened to Chambrin, if he escaped... perhaps a sequel adventure is in order here... What do you think happened to Armstead after the Abelaat invasion, or do you not use it? I think it slowly came back and is now a village. Also, does anyone have ideas on new buildings in Bywater, after Verdilith's attack? In the area I'm thinking of, I remember reading about the Duke's Road, and Knights of the Road. Are these published somewhere, I forgot? If not, lets speculate about them... What are they like? ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 01:28 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Re: Volo? also, my contrubition - --=====================_835950561==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Daniel and Leroy wrote (the truth): > Hey, you Mystara people! Want to add your own ideas to a net.book? All >you have to do is make something up! That's right, just flex your >imagination that tiny little bit, and think up something! A tavern, a >brand of wine, heck, even just the name of some poor sod! Oh, you also >have to either email it or post it to the list! > (Does that count, Leroy? :) ) > >> > I can just imagine a cross-Glantri wine & cheese tour... ;) >> Now _that_ would be interesting. > Alright then, let's assume that Joshuan, as part of his research >for his next Almanac, is heading up to Glantri to do a cheese and wine >tour (and incidentally visit every locality worth visiting, and some that >aren't)... Everybody! Pick a place somewhere in Glantri, and place your >tavern there, maybe even detailing various beverages or such that happen >to be there.. and I /do/ mean You in particular. :) Remember, this is the >only way to get more Mystara information, and You are one of the few >people keeping the world alive... > Exactly. I totally agree! What a great, extremely important idea, here is my contribution. I have felt the responsibility of keeping Mystara alive, as it is indeed a truly excellent world, and I hope *You yourself* do too. Are *You* going to contribute too? If not, you had better have a good excuse, or suffer the Wrath of the Immortals (pun intended, for fun)! Let us get an almanac made. I think it would be good if someone on the list were to lead us in this putting together of not only this tavern/wine/cheese tour section, but the whole almanac... What else could we include... How about strange new creatures sighted, brought about because of the radiance and the Wrath of Immortals war... How about anything and everything! Let us create! Sadly, I will probably be off the 'net in a week since we may be moving this summer (My local internet provider only sells subscriptions in 3-month periods, which is expensive so I'm not paying for 3 months when I may stay for only 1. Can you believe that gyp?!), but then I'll probably be back on. Because of this dreadful occurence, you if you want to question or comment me about my latest creation, you must do it ASAP. I would like to know what you all think about it, and I hope you use it because I stayed up half the night creating it! Now you should go and do something similar. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net - --=====================_835950561==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DRBOTAV.TXT" Taverne du Sanglier Ivre (Drunken Boar Tavern) =09 A part of the Glantrian Tavern series =09 by David Melik, an avid Mystara fan This unique Glantrian tavern is located in the town of Loupmont (Details of= Loupmont are in PC4: Night Howlers). On the map of Loupmont, it is the= southernmost building of the group of buildings that is south of the= northwestern gate of Loupmont. The tavern is a sturdy, two-story, sort of light colored wooden building. = Above the yellow letters of the sign is a mural of a boar dancing on its= hind legs, with a mug of liquor, a red nose, and a crazy, intensely amused= look on its face. It was done by a famous Glantrian artist. It is open= from 10 to 10. It has decent prices for drinks, but the owners original= brews, "Les Spiriteux du Visions =C9trange" cost 4 times as much as the= normal drink. These are detailed later. Inside are excellent oaken bar= stools, chairs, and large round tables, which the owner really likes, and= really does not like them abused in any way. In the tavern area, along= with wooden beams, the roof is held up by 4 tusks of gargantuan boars, with= intricate carvings of important events of Glantrian history, going from= each corner to the center, even though the roof is prism-shaped. There is= a large fireplace on the southwestern wall, beside the bar. The bar is in= the center of the building, against the wall that separates the tavern from= the rooms. The door to these is between the bar and the stairs, which are= on the northwestern side. The few rooms behind the tavern area (in the= northwestern rectangular part of the building) are available for a slightly= more expensive cost than the local inns, as this is a tavern, not an inn. = Upstairs lives the owner, in a large room. There is no rivalry between the= Drunken Boar Tavern and Taverne du Loup Savage. In fact, the owner is= friends with Villebois. Perhaps they went adventuring together in the= past. The tavern is a meeting place for groups of werecreatures. The owner of the tavern is Jacques-Pierre Pommet=EAte. His stats are: Magic-User 6th; AC D&D: 8, AD&D: 10; hp 15; #AT 1; Dmg 1D4 (dagger) or by= spell; MV D&D: 120' 40', AD&D: 12'; ML D&D: 9, AD&D: 75%; AL D&D: neutral,= AD&D: true neutral (with good tendencies); STR 9, INT 18, WIS 17, DEX 14,= CON 12, CHA 16, COM 15 (These ability scores were rolled using the method= of rolling 4D6, and dropping the lowest roll.). =20 He has skills such as: alchemy, herbalism(2), magical engineering,= brewing(3), cooking(2), gambling, storytelling, food tasting,= fire-building, etc. His additional languages include dwarf and halfling. = He has most of his weapon specialization/mastery in dagger. These various= skills are neither complete nor necessary. The DM should modify everything= to their own taste, of course. His personality and background are: Pierre is a somewhat retired adventurer, who was born on the day of= Thaumont 15th, 967 AC. He was born and raised in Loupmont. He learned how= to run a tavern from his uncle Marinois, who previously owned the tavern. = His uncle was also a wereboar. When he was 19, he began avidly= adventuring, and continued to help at the tavern between adventures. When= he was 23 years old and 3rd level he served for two years in La Garde= d'Obsidienne as Sire Malachie sometimes needs a wizard or two, and then= returned to a life of adventuring. When he served in The Obsidian Guard,= he was given an obsidian dagger +1 instead of a sword, as he is a wizard,= which he still has, among other magical items. In 996 AC, his uncle was brutally murdered by an evil travelling member of= The Fellowship of Were-Hunters who met him in wereform in La For=EAt des= Ombres, on the trail to Vignes. As Marinois had no sons, Pierre inherited= the tavern from him. He lost much of his adventuring ambition and settled= back down in Loupmont to run the Drunken Boar Tavern. Pierre is an active member of The Canine Protection Society (or= practically, but not officially a member if you don't allow wereboars in= this organization in your campaign). He often performs tasks and= occasionaly goes on adventures to help Sire Malachie, The Canine Protection= Society, or werecreature society in general. He might go on adventures in= PC4 like The Black Horse, The White Wolf of Morlay, or similar ones. He= goes on adventures about two to four times a year now, leaving the tavern= in the hands of someone that has been working for him for a long time, who= he trusts. In the his spare time, he does magical research and whatever= other magely things mages do, and reads because of curiosity and for fun. He is a 6' 1", 210 lbs. portly man, with a pinkish tint of skin and dark= brown hair and eyes. He is a friendly person who likes conversations, a= good bartender. He is not afraid to say what he wants when he wants to or= has to. He will not speak or act very foolishly though. He has an average= spellbook, and always has spells that he might need memorized, in case of a= bar fight, and that could help with bartending. He first tries to sleep,= charm, hold, etc. troublemakers, and he has also devised a spell called= Pierre's Stunning Missile, that is identical to magic missile except that= it does double damage, which is nonlethal. Pierre's famous original brew, his specialty is "Les Spiriteux du Visions= =C9trange", or "Liquor of Strange Visions", locally known as "The Weird= Liquor". There are versions of it for all standard drinks. One might ask= for "a mug of weird ale" for example. Pierre buys a certain type of= extrememly aged cheese from a local farmer, who is named Bob or something. = This cheese is not normally consumed at such an age, because of the old and= extensive growth of the mold, which is hallucinogenic and tastes very bad. = There is actually a sort of cheese mold like this on earth. In this state,= the mold probably has a negative effect on the body if eaten much, or even= a little, but it is a medieval time, and no one really knows about this. = The moldy parts are removed from the cheese. Then, it is included in the= mixture when the liquor is fermented. Afterwards, concentrated juice of= the appropriate type is added, because most people find the taste of the= mold disgusting. Pierre has the base ready, and mixes the desired type of= juice or other liquor with it for customers. Popular mixtures that he= keeps on hand are with standard drinks mixed with the concentrated juice of= their ingredients, or with mint, apple cider, wine, and whisky. he also= sells bottles of desired mixtures, and the base so one can mix their own= desires. When someone quaffs it, they will begin to hallucinate in 2D3 plus their= constitution adjustment minutes. Pierre has experience, so the recipie= includes enough so the drinker is normally still in touch with reality. = Because of this, the effect on the body is probably not as bad as it would= be otherwise. This probably depends on constitution. Anything from their= imagination and memory can appear. This probably depends on intelligence= and/or wisdom. If a character frequently drinks this brew, it should= eventually effect certain organs of their body adversely, probably their= brain. I hope you have as much fun using this resource as I will, and have had in= creating it. That's about all for now. - --=====================_835950561==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" - --=====================_835950561==_-- ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:46:36 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] New Mystic classes - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB64CE.FE66A140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I am flattered at the response to my posting, At 02:47 AM 6/27/96 -0500, you wrote: >Well, here is the first, > Which I think was excellent! Quick, do the rest! I'm looking forward = to it, and I'm sure most of the rest of you are too. Are you doing a bunch = of different fighting styles? Have you seen the Oriental Adventures = fighting styles, or that Palladium book that has a lot, Ninjas and Superspies I think? These would be quite useful in designing more Mystaran = Mystics... Here are some martial arts styles I have created for my game; Unarmed Combat Styles in D&D Introduction In the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, on pages 112 and 113 there are details of two unarmed combat styles, namely boxing and wrestling. These details are within the framework of the weapon mastery system (found in chapter five of the Rules Cyclopedia).=20 This article will apply this method to other martial arts styles. Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Karameikan BS 1d3 ---- Stun, Knockout Kick Boxing SK 1d4+1 H:-1AC/1 Stun, Knockout, double damage on 19-20 [P=3DH] SM EX 1d6+1 H:-1AC/2 Stun, Knockout (save -1), double damage on 18-20, no off-hand penalty 1H SH MS P: 2d4 H:-2AC/2 Stun, knockout (save -2), double damage on 16-20, S: 1d6+1 no off-hand penalty, second attack GM P: 3d4 H:-2AC/3 Stun, knockout (save -4), double damage on = 14-20, S: 2d6+1 no off-hand penalty, second attack There are additional special manuevers which can be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. 1) Mule Kick: allows attacks on opponents to the rear or side without = turning round. 2) Horseman's Surprise: a leaping kick which allows an attack to do = double damage, there is a +2 to any parries or deflects. This is the = only attack which can be made in the round. If the target is mounted, a riding roll must be = made at -2 or they fall off their mount. 3) Blinding Feet: allows an additional kicking attack to be made in a = round at no penalty Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Ylari BS 1 Point ---- Stun Desert Wind SK 1d3 H:-2AC/1 Stun, knockout [P=3DH] SM EX 1d4+1 H:-2AC/2 Stun, knockout (save -1), double = damage on 19-20 1H SH MS P: 1d8+2 H:-3AC/2 Stun, knockout (save -2),=20 double damage on 16-20, S: 1d4+1 no off-hand penalty GM P: 2d6+2 H:-3AC/3 Stun, knockout (save -4), double damage = on 14-20, S: 2d4 + 2 no off-hand penalty There are additional special manuevers which can be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. 1) Strike of the Sand in the Air: this is an attack designed to draw = the opponent out, the=20 opponent's next attack is +2 to hit you; your next attack is a +4 to = hit and damage. 2) Wind Across the Desert: this is similar to the thief skill Move = Silently, but is based=20 upon the dexterity of the character, if a half roll is made, then no = tracks are left by the character in addition to making no sound. 3) Sandy Eyes: this is an Int based skill allowing the character to = fight in conditions=20 where the target(s) are not visible. 4) Leap of the Desert Cat: this is a Dex based skill allowing the = character to leap upwards by one foot per level, and to leap horizontally five feet per level. 5) Flowing Sand: this is a Dex based manuever allowing the character to = move at full=20 speed and strike every opponent within arm's reach of the path. Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Glantrian BS ---- ---- Basic Skill with Dagger Silk Dance SK ---- ---- Skilled with Dagger [P=3DH] SM EX ---- ---- Expert with Dagger From ???@??? Sun Jun 30 14:18:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA24152; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 01:29:52 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA25869 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:55:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:55:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199606281455.JAA25869@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #140 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: e109c88a1c655a55866a9e892a545824 MS ---- ---- Master with Dagger 1H SH GM ---- ---- Grand Master with Dagger There are additional manuevers which can be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. 1) Feint: this is an attack designed to draw the opponent out, the = opponent's next attack=20 is +2 to hit you; your next attack is a +4 to hit and damage 2) Blinding Cut: this attack causes blood to flow into the target's = eyes, all attacks made=20 by the target are at -5 to hit for a full minute (the time it takes to = wipe the blood away). 3) Bleeding Cut: this attack causes the wound to bleed one hit point = per round until=20 healed or death. 4) Quick Strike: this attack is at -4 to hit, if successful the attack = is so swift that there is no chance for a deflect or parry 5) Blindfighting: this is an Int based skill allowing the character to = fight in darkness or to=20 fight invisible foes without detriment. 6) Arterial Cut: this attack causes the target to lose a d3 hit points = per round. 7) The Silk Dance: identicle to Flowing Sand above. Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Ierendi BS 1 point ---- Grab, takedown, pin (-3 WR) Wrestling SK 1d3 +1 WR Grab, takedown, pin (-6 WR) [P=3DH] SM EX 1d4+1 +2 WR Grab, takedown, pin (-9 WR) MS P: 2d4 +3 WR Grab, takedown, pin (-12 WR) 2H S: 1d4+1 GM P: 3d4 +4 WR Grab, takedown, pin (-15 WR) S: 2d4 There are additional manuevers which may be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. 1) Choke Hold: this attack causes the target to Save vs Death Ray each = round thus held.=20 If the save is unsuccessful the target is unconscious for 2d6 rounds. 2) Arm Lock: this attack prevents the target from moving an arm until = the wrestler lets go=20 of it. 3) Crushing Hold: this attack does double damage. Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Alfheim BS 1d3 ---- Stun, knockout Forest Dance SK 1d4+1 H:-1AC/1 Stun, knockout (-1 save),=20 double damage on 19-20 [P=3DH] SM EX 2d4 H:-1AC/2 Stun, knockout (-2 save),=20 double damage on 16-20, no off-hand penalty 1H SH MS P: 3d4 H:-2AC/2 Stun, knockout (-4 save),=20 double damage on 14-20, S: 2d4 no off-hand penalty GM P: 4d4 H:-2AC/3 Stun, knockout (-6 save),=20 double damage on 12-20 S: 3d4 no off-hand penalty There are additional manuevers which may be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. 1) The Strike of the Trickster: this is an attack designed to draw the = opponent out, the=20 opponent's next attack is +2 to hit you; your next attack is a +4 to = hit and damage 2) The Sapling Rises: this is a Dex based skill allowing the character = to stand=20 immediately if knocked down. 3) Sight of the Tree: this is an Int based skill allowing the character = to see all round, thus=20 making surprise nearly impossible (surpised only by invisible = creatures or on a 1 rolled on a d20). 4) Ward of the Branches: is a Dex based skill allowing the character to = catch or dodge=20 missile weapons aimed at the character or anyone else within five = feet. 5) Wind in the Branches: this is identicle to the Flowing Sand manuever = above. Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Rockhome BS 1 point ---- Stun, knockout. Boxing SK 1d3 H:-1AC/2 Stun, knockout (save -1), no offhand penalty=20 [P=3DH] SM EX 1d4 + 1 H:-2AC/2 Stun, knockout (save -2), no offhand=20 penalty 1H SH MS P: 2d4 H:-2AC/3 Stun, knockout (save -4), no offhand penalty S: 1d4 + 1 GM P: 3d4 H:-3AC/3 Stun, knockout (save -6), no offhand penalty S: 2d4 + 1 There are additional manuevers which may be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. 1) Stone Hand: this manuever allows the dwarf to strike with the force = of a solid stone=20 mace. The damage is an additional die level (1 point becomes a d4, a = d4=20 becomes a d6, a d6 becomes a d8). 2) Strike of the Pick: this manuever delivers a massive blow capable of = penetrating 1" of wood plus an additional inch per additional level, = or of penetrating 1/4" of stone plus an additional quarter inch of stone per additional level, = or crushing=20 tissue for 2d8 plus an additional point of damage per additional = level. 3) Blow of the Mountain: this manuever allows the dwarf to perform a = strike delivering=20 3d10 of damage capable of hitting creatures which can only be struck = by magical weapons. Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Yellow Orc BS 1d3 ---- Stun, knockout Karate SK 1d4 + 1 H:-1AC/2 Stun, knockout (save -1), no offhand penalty [P=3DH] SM EX 2d4 H:-2AC/2 Stun, knockout (save -2), no offhand penalty, double damage on 19-20 1H SH MS P: 3d4 + 2 H: -2AC/3 Stun, knockout (save -4), no offhand penalty, S: 2d4 double damage on 16-20 GM P: 3d6 + 3 H: -3AC/3 Stun, knockout (save -6), no offhand penalty,=20 S: 3d4 double damage on 14-20 There are additional manuevers which can be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. 1) Sweep of the River: this manuever allows the orc to knock a foe off = their feet by=20 executing a leg sweep, if the orc hits then the foe must make a save = vs dragon=20 breath at -2 or be knocked down (loss of initiative, must use an = action to get up). 2) Binding of the Mushroom Spore: this attack causes the target to Save = vs Death Ray=20 each round thus held. If the save is unsuccessful the target is = unconscious for 2d6 rounds. 3) Leaping of the Lava Stream: a leaping kick which allows an attack to = do double=20 damage, there is a +2 to any parries or deflects. This is the only = attack which=20 can be made in the round. If the target is mounted, a riding roll = must be made at -2 or they fall off their mount. 4) Strike of the Ogre: this manuever allows the orc to strike with = great force. The=20 damage is an additional die level (a d3 becomes a d4, a d4 becomes a = d6, etc.). 5) Mask of the Darkness: allows the orc to move silently and without = being seen at night. 6) Diamond Strike: this manuever allows the orc to kick with enough = force to inflict 3d10=20 of damage upon an opponent. 7) Avalanche: this is a Dex based manuever allowing the orc to move at = full speed and=20 strike every opponent within six feet of the path of movement. Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Ethengarian BS ---- ---- Basic Skill with Composite Bow Archery SK ---- ---- Skilled with Composite Bow [P=3DH] SM EX ---- ---- Expert with Composite Bow MS ---- ---- Master with Composite Bow 1H SH GM ---- ---- Grand Master with Composite Bow There are additional manuevers which can be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. Eye of the Archer: this maneuver gains a +2 to hit and double damage = with the bow after one round of total concentration. Arrow Storm: this maneuver allows the archer to fire an additional arrow = each round. Blind Shooting: as Blind Fighting. Still Air: this maneuver allows the archer to remain completely still = for long periods of time, in essense becoming a part of the landscape, = treat this as a halfling's hiding ability, until they move. Splitting the Arrow: allows all attacks against a single target to be = made (or failed) on a single attack roll made at the beginning of the = round. All attacks must then be carried out against the target, or be forfeit. Critical Shot: this skill allows the archer, once per round, to declare = a "Critical Shot" which, if successful, will produce a wound which = bleeds at 1d4 hp per round until healed or dead. Technique Lvl Damage Defense Special Effects Seretean BS ---- ---- Basic Skill with Rapier and Dagger Fencing SK ---- ---- Skilled with Rapier and Dagger [P=3DH] SM EX ---- ---- Expert with Rapier and Dagger MS ---- ---- Master with Rapier and Dagger 2H GM ---- ---- Grand Master with Rapier and Dagger There are additional manuevers which can be purchased with skill slots. These manuevers must be purchased in order. Two Weapon Style: this allows an additional attack per round and an = additional deflect. Lunge: this skill allows the fencer to perform an extremely powerful = strike (smash) without waiting for the end of the round. This is the = only attack allowed within the round in which it is used. Blindfighting: This is an Int based skill that allows the fencer to = fight targets he/she cannot see. Quicksilver: this strike has a hit modifier of -4, if successful, the = strike is too fast to be parried or deflected. Missile Deflect: allows deflection of missile attacks (not siege = engines). Swashbuckling: as Flowing Sand, described above. Not today: the fencer is able to use any and all deflects at any rate he = desires, including all in a single segment. 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of portals between Mystara and other worlds, what about portals > between Mystara and other D&D worlds, namely Thunder Rift, and the world of > the Abelaats? The only reference to Thunder Rift and Mystara was in that module. And the Ablaats were recorded only in the TSR novels and that module. > The DM screen for D&D with the Thuder Rift/Mystara adventure was what got me > started on Mystara, luckily. That was one TSR marketing scheme I'm thankful > of. I thought it was pretty neat. That reminds me, it also had Abelaat's > crystals in it. Does anyone know if the Abelaats' world is a > plane/dimension published somewhere, and/or when the Abelaat invasion took > place? As I said, the ablaats came from the novels, which made a real mess of Mystara (esp. the Darokin/Karameikos border were the invasion took place). As for a time - it would have to be about 1000AC, no mention is made of the War, and Stephan is on the throne. The books aren't very "canon" to me. The whole of Karameikos was rather bland, it lacked almost all the culture of GAZ1. I thought I was reading about Greyhawk at times. I did like the beast-magic stuff (great if you're using Ars Magica as a system - Bjornaer magi rejoice!), and I do use the ablaat-as-big-poisonous-demon-nasty not ablaat-as-world-crushing-magic-menice. I don't know if the books prejudiced me against their content, but even after a second read I don't think the author knew what he wanted to do. The land of the dead is a tent city where avatars pick up newcomers? Wandering immortals, characters introduced just to say one line and fade away, and half the world stripped of magic just to have a kid and a god joined forever in combat to seal a gate? The first book was good (if generic), and it went downhill from there (primarily for the flip-flopping of intention - I did like the suicide scene - a refreshing break from TSR CoE). At least the Fall of Magic trillogy wasn't the Council of Wyrms - er. Dragonlord/mage/whatever series. > I wonder what happened to Chambrin, if he escaped... perhaps a sequel > adventure is in order here... I still have him wandering around. At this point he can't do too much damage, I'm waiting a few years (until about 1008AC or so) before he comes back - in a big way. > What do you think happened to Armstead after the Abelaat invasion, or do you > not use it? Didn't use it. I haven't thought of how much of the books I'm going to introduce (I put in most of the first book wholesale with a few cultural shifts). But I'm pretty sure that there wasn't (according to my campaign continuity) a massive alien demon invasion. > I think it slowly came back and is now a village. Also, does anyone have > ideas on new buildings in Bywater, after Verdilith's attack? When the characters walked through Bywater (post first book), it was still ashes. And considering that there is now a civil war in Karameikos (the long-dreaded Traladar/Thyatian precipitated by the death of the old Patriarch, the usruption of the new one, and the appearance of a nationalistic avatar/paladin of Petra) it doesn't look like anyone's going to be rebuilding it soon. > In the area I'm thinking of, I remember reading about the Duke's Road, and > Knights of the Road. Are these published somewhere, I forgot? If not, lets > speculate about them... What are they like? Probably like roadwardens (from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay - think medieval sheriff crossed by hiway patrol) with fancy crests and titles to make them important. They haven't seen the light of day prior to or since. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:34:37 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] unpublished stuff > Does anyone know if TSR has lots of unpublished Mystara stuff? I've heard > of filing cabinets chock full of info. on Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms that > has never been published and probably never will be... > What a waste, just sitting there gathering dust(if it's true (Does anyone > know?))! It would be nice if TSR at least had some scanned and put on ftp... Well, there's one way to find out.. ask them. :) I'm going to forward this message to the kind TSR people who dug for the unpublished DA5 module (unfortunately, nothing was ever written for it).. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and other worlds Nightshade pontificated: > > suicide scene - a refreshing break from TSR CoE). At least the Fall > of Magic trillogy wasn't the Council of Wyrms - er. > Dragonlord/mage/whatever series. I guess you didn't like the Dragon Trilogy too much? Why is that? I don't think it is great, but it is IMO much better than the Tainted Sword Trilogy. It is fairly accurate in details and it feels like it was actually set in Mystara, except for the third book, when all hell break loose. > > In the area I'm thinking of, I remember reading about the Duke's > Road, and Duke's Road is the road that connects Mirro to Kelvin to Threshold, right? Now renamed into King's Road. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 13:34 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Mystara novels, and the Duke/King's Road At 02:33 PM 6/28/96 -0400, you wrote: >Nightshade pontificated: >> >> suicide scene - a refreshing break from TSR CoE). At least the Fall >> of Magic trillogy wasn't the Council of Wyrms - er. >> Dragonlord/mage/whatever series. > >I guess you didn't like the Dragon Trilogy too much? Why is that? >I don't think it is great, but it is IMO much better than the >Tainted Sword Trilogy. It is fairly accurate in details and it >feels like it was actually set in Mystara, except for the third >book, when all hell break loose. > I really liked the first two books (I haven't read the third yet.). Yes, it is fairly accurate, and ir does provide some more details, doesn't it? I thought it was in many ways written better than the Fall of Magic trilogy, which I also liked. I suppose it's because there are few Mystara novels, so whatever is written, I eagerly read. I wonder what level lycanthrope that old lady mage is in the Fall of Magic. All hell does break loose on Mystara sometimes. There's nothing really wrong with that. What about the Fall of Blackmoor, Wrath of the Immortals, etc.. The only real difference is this was in a novel, right? >> > In the area I'm thinking of, I remember reading about the Duke's >> Road, and > >Duke's Road is the road that connects Mirro to Kelvin to >Threshold, right? Now renamed into King's Road. > Well, close, but not exactly. I looked at the old 8-mile/hex map in the Rules Cyclopedia, which shows it starts at Krakatos, not Mirros (previously Specularum). Right before reaching Kelvin, it sort of half-circles around W, N, and E through a couple of places, endoing in Threshold. It goes NE to Kelvin, then Penhaligon, and N to the Duke's Road Keep. Does anyone know anything about that Keep? I wonder if anything was published on it... Also, I wonder if the road crosses that river to get to Kelvin. It's not mapped, but it seems logical... David M. darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: Andrea Stadtfeld Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 23:42:28 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? At 00:35 26.06.96 +1000, Shane wrote: >In one of the old D&D modules I once saw, there was a passage between >Mystara and Oerth(?). It involved a cabin or the like in a forest, as >I recall. I've also seen reference (maybe in a gazeteer?) to a similar >portal or portals somewhere in one of the three nations of Soderfjord, >Vestland and Ostland (I can't remember which one). The portal in the Northern Reaches connects Mystara to the Forgotten Realms, as is mentioned in the Gazetteer. I only bought the Gaz cause I was looking for an elegant way to get my FR-party to Mystara. Anyway, it got something to do with a Tree, if I recall correctly, but I'm not sure. It was not a solution I wanted to use. Bye, Andrea Stadtfeld I I was happy in the haze of a drunken hour Dortmund, Germany I but heaven knows I'm miserable now I I was looking for a job and then I found I a job e-mail: lavista@prima.ruhr.de I and heaven knows I'm miserable now... andrea.stadtfeld@uni-duesseldorf.de I I --The Smiths I "Heaven knows I'm miserable now" ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Fall of Magic? What's this Fall of Magic series? Curious, Azure ------------------------------ From: Andrea Stadtfeld Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 23:42:26 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] airships At 21:00 24.06.96 -0500, Shelby Michlin wrote: >To my recollection, the Dragon Wings look much like dragon/ship crosses. >Human slaves work mechanical devices inside to "flap," and this causes the >ships to fly. But only on the Elves' ships on Arianus. >Not like most Mystaran Airships, but I suppose they could be. In Death Gate >they require no magic, but that could be altered for Mystara... Haplo and Lord Xar use magic for their skyships and they are not in need of human slaves for operating the ships. This is just how I assumed the Mystara skyships to be, as Haplo's ship. In the Death Gate computer-game Haplo steers his ship with a rune-enscribed globe. Is there something similar in Champions of Mystara? I still do not have the supplement... Bye, Andrea Stadtfeld I I was happy in the haze of a drunken hour Dortmund, Germany I but heaven knows I'm miserable now I I was looking for a job and then I found I a job e-mail: lavista@prima.ruhr.de I and heaven knows I'm miserable now... andrea.stadtfeld@uni-duesseldorf.de I I --The Smiths I "Heaven knows I'm miserable now" ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara novels, and the Duke/King's Road David Melik pontificated: > > lycanthrope that old lady mage is in the Fall of Magic. All hell does break > loose on Mystara sometimes. There's nothing really wrong with that. What > about the Fall of Blackmoor, Wrath of the Immortals, etc.. The only real > difference is this was in a novel, right? Well, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with all hell break loose, but because of the scale of events described in the book three, it starts to lose its connection to Mystara and became more of a generic fantasy novel. Also, event such as described in the book three should definatly be in recorded history, so there are continuality problems. It is weird, but when I read the book, at one time I was think how can event such as this was not recorded in the gazeteer and other books, then I remember that the book came out after the gazeteers :) I think you will understand what I meant better after you read the book. > Also, I wonder if the road crosses that river to get to Kelvin. > It's not mapped, but it seems logical... > I remember reading somewhere about a major bridge close to Kelvin. Can't remember much about it. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: fbarr98@gnn.com (The Barrett's) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:38:51 Subject: [Mystara] Mystics Do you know how to make mystics? (like fighters, clerics, thieves, etc...) Please reply. ________________________________ f b a r r 9 8 @ g n n . c o m http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/ http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/andy/ http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/james/ ******************************** ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Dragonlord Trilogy Spoiler Warning Dragonmage of Mystara Discussed Daniel Boese pontificated: > > Do you think that the > > event described within should be consider as cannon? The early history > > of Flaem, creation of gemstone dragon, creation of the star dragon, etc. > Why not? As far as I'm aware, it doesn't conflict with anything already > known, and adds some interesting touches to Mystara's past and present.. But some of the stuffs detailed in the book were not supported by any populished materials either. > > Also, do people consider it a bit strange that the > > true name of the bad guy was never revealed? From the way the book is > > written, it seems like it should be a name that we all recognize but > > the author intentionally hidden it until the very end, except that it > > wasn't revealed in the end either. > What you want T.G. to draw the attention of []? :) > I don't entirely agree with you that the BigBagGuy is somebody we already > know.. unless it's Alphaks, who &#G%j$kk]# Well, I just throught that the author after going through so much trouble conceling the true name of the Big Bad Guy, he will shock us when it is finally revealed, but he never did. Despite some inconsistancies, I thought the BBG was going to be Alphak. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 20:01:43 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics Do you know how to make mystics? (like fighters, clerics, thieves, etc...) Please reply. ________________________ It's all in the Rules Cyclopedia. If you don't have I'm sure someone(if not me) will send you the info. J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:21:02 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragonlord Trilogy > Spoiler Warning > > > > > > Dragonmage of Mystara Discussed > > > > > > > > > Daniel Boese pontificated: > > > Do you think that the > > > event described within should be consider as cannon? The early history > > > of Flaem, creation of gemstone dragon, creation of the star dragon, etc. > > Why not? As far as I'm aware, it doesn't conflict with anything already > > known, and adds some interesting touches to Mystara's past and present.. > > But some of the stuffs detailed in the book were not supported by any > populished materials either. Forgive my bluntness, but.. So? If the novels don't conflict with the Gazetteers (etc.), and add interesting Role-Playing items, why shouldn't they be considered canon? They /are/ published by TSR, after all.. :) > > I don't entirely agree with you that the BigBagGuy is somebody we already > > know.. unless it's Alphaks, who &#G%j$kk]# > Well, I just throught that the author after going through so much > trouble conceling the true name of the Big Bad Guy, he will shock > us when it is finally revealed, but he never did. Despite some > inconsistancies, I thought the BBG was going to be Alphak. Well.. possibly T.G. let it slide. After all, what with all the other individual plot elements, a measly little name might easily slip by him.. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: toron@tripnet.se (Daniel Niklasson) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:36:37 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Petra Hi... Im looking for more info about Petra. I have the Ad&d Mystara setting and one player in the adventure group is an Priest of Petra. In the Karameikos box there isen=B4t much information about her or her priests. What type of abilities does she grant her priests?? and so on... I would be very thankful if someone helped me...:) /Daniel Niklasson toron@tripnet.se ------------------------------ From: kevinaug@ihug.co.nz (Kevin Augenstein) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 22:46:56 +1200 Subject: [Mystara] Red Steel I just read the message that the three Red Steel Source Books that were to be produced this year, are to be published electronicaly, on TSR sites. Does this mean that the Red Steel setting wasn't very succesful. That is unfortunate as I've found that the savage coast is a very unique and imagnative setting for D&D adventures, and I hope that it's line will be continued. Making the resources only avalible electronically will only further decrease the number of people that will use the resources. ( however since it's free, I won't say no. ) Were these items orginaly planned for release only in electronic media, or is a recent change. I'd also like to know if anyone out there knows the planned release date of the Savage coast resources. - ----- Kevin Finn Augenstein. kevinaug@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 06:46:25 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6587.653541C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Do you know how to make mystics? (like fighters, clerics, thieves, etc...) Please reply. ________________________ It's all in the Rules Cyclopedia. If you don't have I'm sure someone(if not me) will send you the info. J. Ovard Here is how I do it: 1) I strip out all of the martial arts abilities given in the Rules Cyclopedia. 2) I look at the culture and decide whether to use a martial art I have already designed, or to invent another one (the subject of a possible posting in the future). 3) I then assign some level of the martial art to each level of the progression. 4) Since mystics are related to the immortals I assume that at the levels where the mystics would be given special powers in the "book" mystic, I give them special powers more appropriate to their immortal. 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I don't think that the Shadow Elves in Aengmor would be so nice to let the ToL live, so probably the daughter Trees will die too. What do you think ? I tried to figure out where the 10 ToL are located before WotI (AC 1000): 1 in the Sylvan Realm (the original ToL) 6 in Alfheim (+1, the Feador one, daughter of the original ToL) (a daughter of the Erendyl's ToL is probably in Glantri by Erewan elves) 1 by Callarii elves in Karameikos 1 by Vyalia elves in Thyatis 1 by Shye-Lawr elves in Alfheim Is this correct ? I'm not sure about the last one, but according to Daniel's Timeline Shye Lawr came from the Sylvan Realm too, so they probably have a ToL. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #141 ***************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 30 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 142 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Johnson Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:05:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Petra On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Daniel Niklasson wrote: > Hi... >=20 > Im looking for more info about Petra. I have the Ad&d Mystara setting and > one player in the adventure group is an Priest of Petra. In the Karameiko= s > box there isen=B4t much information about her or her priests. What type o= f > abilities does she grant her priests?? and so on... The best places I've found to look for info on the Immortals are _Wrath=20 of the Immortals_ (naturally) and the Hollow World boxed set, which has a= =20 listing of Immortals that sometimes adds a little that _Wrath_ left=20 out. Also, GAZ1, The Grand Duchy of Karameikos, has some information=20 that may or may not be in the boxed set. Taking information from those,=20 here's what we find: Petra tends to be a patron of fighting-clerics and defenders; she is=20 often appealed to by those who live in besieged cities. Though=20 originally, she was a warrior-cleric and Halav's co-ruler, later legends=20 have portrayed her as a simple potter who the Immortals taught the art of= =20 the bow, the craft of medicine, the use of the potter's wheel, the=20 spinning of flax and use of the loom. This is how her priests and=20 priestesses in Karameikos are likely to know of her. She fought=20 alongside King Halav and the huntsman Zirchev in the war against the=20 Beast-Men, and after Halav slew the Beast-Man king, dying in the process=20 but routing the invasion, the three were spirited into the ranks of the=20 Immortals - or so legend (and the famous Traladaran epic 'The Song of=20 Halav') has it. (In reality, Petra raised Halav, and then they and the=20 wizard Zirchev set out on their separate paths to Immortality.) Petra's=20 symbol is a circle with another circle inside - interpreted as a top-down= =20 look at a potter's wheel, although it was originally a round shield with=20 a circular boss in the center. According to _Wrath of the Immortals,_=20 her clerics recieve a +1 bonus to their Strength and the Leadership=20 non-weapon proficiency. Clerics of Petra are almost certainly members of the Church of Traladara,= =20 which has a moral code conveniently set down in GAZ1. The basic=20 philosophy of the Church is that people should not harm one another, and=20 that when they do the community should punish the wrongdoer in proportion= =20 to the degree of the sin. More specifically, these are their beliefs: (1) That the acts of assault, abuse, murder, theft and lying are sins,=20 brought on by weakness or the intrustion of bad-will from evil or animal=20 spirits; (2) That the sins described above should be punished, in the manner that=20 parents punish children: physical punishment, imprisonment, and the=20 witholding of rights (even death, in the case of extreme sinners who=20 endanger others); (3) That the role of the individual in the afterlife will be determined=20 by the individuals's state of wisdom, strength of character, and=20 good-will at the time of his death; (4) That the relationship of man to woman is a personal matter, not=20 involving the philosophies of the Church unless one of the above sins is=20 involved; (5) That common magic ritual such as the use of lucky charms,=20 tea-reading, palm-readings, card-readings and so forth are all=20 declarations of man's curiosity about the world and determination to=20 preserve himself from evil, and are often rewarded by the Immortals with=20 the gleaning of facts about the future or nature of the world; and (6) That the events of "The Song of Halav" are absolutely true; that King= =20 Halav, Queen Petra, and Zirchev are now Immortals guiding the righteous=20 and punishing the wicked in Traladara/Karameikos; and that the Golden Age= =20 of the Traladara will one day return to this land. Basically, a Cleric of Petra is likely to be expected to provide advice=20 for younger people, based both on her own experiences and the examples in= =20 "The Song of Halav." They also perform marriages and officiate at other=20 ceremonies, preach the church's philosophies, and promote goodwill. They= =20 also fight, to save lives, defeat evils, or defend those in need. It's=20 basically a good-spirited, easy-going faith that only looks sternly on=20 truly harmful behavior. (Note that much of the above was taken from GAZ1, really a great resource= =20 if you can find it - from what I hear, it has at least as much=20 information as the Kingdom of Karameikos Boxed Set, though it's slightly=20 out of date if you're playing a post-Wrath campaign. Still very, very=20 useful, though.) Hope this helps! - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) If you are attempting to describe a Dwarf-Cleric in AD&D terms, a multi-classed Cleric/Fighter is definitely close enough. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and other worlds In a message dated 96-06-28 06:02:36 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << Speaking of portals between Mystara and other worlds, what about portals between Mystara and other D&D worlds, namely Thunder Rift, and the world of the Abelaats? >> Funny you should mention that: when I got my hands on the Thunder Rift material and compared it with my maps of the Known World, I found a hex in western Rockhome that could have contained the entire Thunder Rift setting. Can you imagine the fun that would have resulted when Elf adventurers made their way out of Thunder Rift and discovered that their land was claimed by a Dwarven king they had never heard of? ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life In a message dated 96-06-29 10:36:28 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << 1 by Shye-Lawr elves in Alfheim Is this correct ? I'm not sure about the last one, but according to Daniel's Timeline Shye Lawr came from the Sylvan Realm too, so they probably have a ToL. >> I seriously doubt the last one -- the Shiye Lawr elves of Alphatia are well established as having no connection with Ilsundal (they follow Eiryndul instead). A more likely location for the last Tree of Life might be among the Belcadiz elves of Glantri. Finally, in regard to the Trees of Life left behind in Alfheim/Aengmor: that would be the second time that a large group of Elves abandoned their Trees of Life in enemy territory, as the _Tree of Life_ describes an earlier such incident. My guess is that the Trees of Life were immune to the warping effect created by the magic of the Shadow Elves and were somehow able to conceal themselves from detection. My guess is that the new Trees of Life owned by the Alfheim refugees will be okay until the Shadow Elves find the Trees of Life in Alfheim -- then we have the makings of another adventure similar to the _Tree of Life_ module. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jun 29 23:33:08 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 29 Jun 96 19:33 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA04720 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:09:08 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA04690 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:04:23 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28530 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:01:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA25565 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:04 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:04 -0400 Message-ID: <960629190204_227822028@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dwarf-cleric(Mystara) Content-Length: 123 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com If you are attempting to describe a Dwarf-Cleric in AD&D terms, a multi-classed Cleric/Fighter is definitely close enough. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@IO.COM Date: Sat Jun 29 23:43:04 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 29 Jun 96 19:43 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA04705 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:08:27 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA04693 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:04:32 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28540 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:02:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA00871 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:26 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:26 -0400 Message-ID: <960629190225_227822126@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and other worlds Content-Length: 671 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-28 06:02:36 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << Speaking of portals between Mystara and other worlds, what about portals between Mystara and other D&D worlds, namely Thunder Rift, and the world of the Abelaats? >> Funny you should mention that: when I got my hands on the Thunder Rift material and compared it with my maps of the Known World, I found a hex in western Rockhome that could have contained the entire Thunder Rift setting. Can you imagine the fun that would have resulted when Elf adventurers made their way out of Thunder Rift and discovered that their land was claimed by a Dwarven king they had never heard of? ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jun 29 23:58:14 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 29 Jun 96 19:58 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA04715 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:08:57 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA04692 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:04:32 -0500 Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28539 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:02:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA10892 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:45 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:02:45 -0400 Message-ID: <960629190244_227822109@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Content-Length: 1177 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-29 10:36:28 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << 1 by Shye-Lawr elves in Alfheim Is this correct ? I'm not sure about the last one, but according to Daniel's Timeline Shye Lawr came from the Sylvan Realm too, so they probably have a ToL. >> I seriously doubt the last one -- the Shiye Lawr elves of Alphatia are well established as having no connection with Ilsundal (they follow Eiryndul instead). A more likely location for the last Tree of Life might be among the Belcadiz elves of Glantri. Finally, in regard to the Trees of Life left behind in Alfheim/Aengmor: that would be the second time that a large group of Elves abandoned their Trees of Life in enemy territory, as the _Tree of Life_ describes an earlier such incident. My guess is that the Trees of Life were immune to the warping effect created by the magic of the Shadow Elves and were somehow able to conceal themselves from detection. My guess is that the new Trees of Life owned by the Alfheim refugees will be okay until the Shadow Elves find the Trees of Life in Alfheim -- then we have the makings of another adventure similar to the _Tree of Life_ module. ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > 4) Since mystics are related to the immortals I assume that > at the levels where the mystics would be given > special powers in the "book" mystic, I give them > special powers more appropriate to their immortal. Assuming, of course, that you bring that to the campaign. Nowhere in the Cyclopedia or Master's rules does it say anything about a relationship between mystics and Immortals or their religions. I, for one, treat mystics as philosopher/warriors who derive their power from an inner spirituality and not from the Immortals. By this thinking, clerics get their powers from devotion, magic-users from study, and mystics from inner discipline. Nothing against your view, mind you, but I just wanted to point out that that's just one way of viewing mystics and not the default view according to the rules. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:23:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics One reason that I would have for doubting an explicit connection between Mystics and Immortals is the fact that Immortals could be found in Glantri even during the period when Clerics were burnt at the stake. I would count that bit of trivia as evidence that Mystics were considered as deriving their powers from some source other than the Immortals. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sun Jun 30 04:48:36 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sun, 30 Jun 96 00:48 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA06273 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:30:14 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA06252 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:25:16 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA10154 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:23:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA01214 for mystara-l@io.com; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:23:34 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:23:34 -0400 Message-ID: <960630002334_227951159@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics Content-Length: 354 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com One reason that I would have for doubting an explicit connection between Mystics and Immortals is the fact that Immortals could be found in Glantri even during the period when Clerics were burnt at the stake. I would count that bit of trivia as evidence that Mystics were considered as deriving their powers from some source other than the Immortals. ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 10:48:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Sunday, 30-Jun-96 12:23 AM > > From: Kaviyd@aol.com \ America On-Line: (Kaviyd) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics > > One reason that I would have for doubting an explicit connection between > Mystics and Immortals is the fact that Immortals could be found in Glantri even > during the period when Clerics were burnt at the stake. I would count that > bit of trivia as evidence that Mystics were considered as deriving their > powers from some source other than the Immortals. > - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- I believe the Mystics were and are regarded with some measure of suspicion, however, implying a possible, tenuous connection to Immortals. And BTW, we can hedge around the subject if we choose, but I think if we take a step back we might agree that the gradual 'moral majoritizing' of TSR, especially in their 'suitable for children' D&D line, led to there being no explicit link to religion for Mystics. The historical model, after all, is linked to religion. Shelby ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 10:48:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Saturday, 29-Jun-96 07:02 PM > > From: Kaviyd@aol.com \ America On-Line: (Kaviyd) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life > > In a message dated 96-06-29 10:36:28 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) > writes: > > A more likely location for the last Tree of Life might be among the Belcadiz > elves of Glantri. > > Finally, in regard to the Trees of Life left behind in Alfheim/Aengmor: that > would be the second time that a large group of Elves abandoned their Trees of > Life in enemy territory, as the _Tree of Life_ describes an earlier such > incident. My guess is that the Trees of Life were immune to the warping effect > created by the magic of the Shadow Elves and were somehow able to conceal > themselves from detection. My guess is that the new Trees of Life owned by the > Alfheim refugees will be okay until the Shadow Elves find the Trees of Life in > Alfheim -- then we have the makings of another adventure similar to the _Tree > of Life_ module. > - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Hi all, I hope my ignorance doesn't waste too much time, but I haven't read up on the whole Tree of Life thing. My question is, ***Belcadiz elves have a Tree of Life?*** I like the Belcadiz and use them in my campaign, but I never considered this kind of 'tie' to nature for them. And I mean 'tie.' I picture a sort of 'passion for life and sensation' as being typical, but that's about as close as I would've gone. Is this contention that Belcadiz elves must have a Tree of Life based on a specific reference, or something more general in scope (ie, "elves have a Tree of Life" could be subject to interpretation when taken out of context, and might only apply to the particular elves being discussed)? Thanks, Shelby ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Petra > Im looking for more info about Petra. I have the Ad&d Mystara setting and > one player in the adventure group is an Priest of Petra. In the Karameiko= s > box there isen=B4t much information about her or her priests. What type o= f > abilities does she grant her priests?? and so on... Petra was a traldaran who helped fight off the gnollish invasion. She=20 became an immortal sometime and is now Halav's lover. She is the aptron=20 ot the hoolow world traldar and milenian people, of whom she is a major=20 deity. For more information, I'd check out the Hollow World boxed set if= =20 you can find one. The only other place I've seen her mentioned is the=20 Milenian HW accesory, where it gives info for specialist priests of her. Hey, Blitzwing. Tank you-Warpath (heh heh) ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:02:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life In a message dated 96-06-30 11:47:24 EDT, shelby7@ix.netcom.com (Shelby Michlin) writes: << Is this contention that Belcadiz elves must have a Tree of Life based on a specific reference, or something more general in scope (ie, "elves have a Tree of Life" could be subject to interpretation when taken out of context, and might only apply to the particular elves being discussed)? >> No, it is based on a reference in Gaz 3 to the effect that the Belcadiz Elves actually had a Tree of Life. It may have been an error given how different the Belcadiz Elves were from Alfheim Elves, but I was rather intrigued by the idea that there would be such bitter conflict between elf clans who had more in common than either would admit. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sun Jun 30 20:01:05 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sun, 30 Jun 96 16:01 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA09138 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:26:23 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA09028 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:09:36 -0500 Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA01748 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:01:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04038 for mystara-l@io.com; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:02:04 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:02:04 -0400 Message-ID: <960630150203_146105452@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Content-Length: 733 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-06-30 11:47:24 EDT, shelby7@ix.netcom.com (Shelby Michlin) writes: << Is this contention that Belcadiz elves must have a Tree of Life based on a specific reference, or something more general in scope (ie, "elves have a Tree of Life" could be subject to interpretation when taken out of context, and might only apply to the particular elves being discussed)? >> No, it is based on a reference in Gaz 3 to the effect that the Belcadiz Elves actually had a Tree of Life. It may have been an error given how different the Belcadiz Elves were from Alfheim Elves, but I was rather intrigued by the idea that there would be such bitter conflict between elf clans who had more in common than either would admit. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 20:53:15 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara novels, and the Duke/King's Road David Melik writes: > > Kelvin, then Penhaligon, and N to the Duke's Road Keep. Does anyone know > anything about that Keep? I wonder if anything was published on it... > Also, I wonder if the road crosses that river to get to Kelvin. > It's not mapped, but it seems logical... In GAZ 1, I think it mentioned somewhere that that is where B2, The Keep On The BorderLands, should be set. Try that module for more info. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Mon Jul 01 15:54:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA17096; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:14:30 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA10780 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:46:30 -0500 Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:46:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199607010146.UAA10780@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #142 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2929e688f4789ce90aad2a73bf056b43 "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 18:11 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gazeteers and stuff At 21:45 06/22/96 -0500, you wrote: >Hey all, > I have recently discovered a p[lace which stioll has alot of >OD&D and old AD&D stuff. > [...chomp...] Would the person who originally posted this message please contact me via e-mail? Thanks. - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 21:19:48 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > I tried to figure out where the 10 ToL are located before WotI (AC 1000): > 1 in the Sylvan Realm (the original ToL) > 6 in Alfheim (+1, the Feador one, daughter of the original ToL) > (a daughter of the Erendyl's ToL is probably in Glantri by Erewan elves) > 1 by Callarii elves in Karameikos > 1 by Vyalia elves in Thyatis > 1 by Shye-Lawr elves in Alfheim > > Is this correct ? I'm not sure about the last one, but according to Daniel's > Timeline Shye Lawr came from the Sylvan Realm too, so they probably have a ToL. I'm not sure that the Vyalia and Callarii elves came from the Sylvan realm. Didn't they come from Evergrun BEFORE the Sylvan Realm was reached? I could have sworn they did... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #142 ***************************** mystara-digest Monday, 1 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 143 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Lelend Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > I believe the Mystics were and are regarded with some measure of suspicion, > however, implying a possible, tenuous connection to Immortals. And BTW, we > can hedge around the subject if we choose, but I think if we take a step > back we might agree that the gradual 'moral majoritizing' of TSR, especially > in their 'suitable for children' D&D line, led to there being no explicit > link to religion for Mystics. The historical model, after all, is linked to > religion. Not that this is all very important, but just as a matter of trivia, I do not believe that the Mystics were and are regarded with that suspicion. I think the MUs of Glantri were quite happy to have a non-clerical (i.e. non-Immortal derived) source of healing, given the lack of clerical healing in the country. I think the greatest source of any suspicion would be the tell-tale signs of the Mystics' harboring refugee clerics, which, BTW, I think is done out of kindness and empathy for other beings, not because they support the Immortal-worship in a direct manner. I also disagree with the speculation that the lack of a link to religion for Mystics is due to the Code of Ethics or other 'moral majoritizing' of TSR. For this to be true, the Mystics would have to have been linked before and that link severed later. As far as I can see, the Mystics are not portrayed much differently in the post CoE works than in the old days of TSR. In both cases, I don't see the strong relevance of the Immortals to the Mystics' way of life. Of course there could be material in the AD&D boxed sets duplicating the gazeteers that seems to go out of its way to reinforce a separation between mystics and Immortals, but I haven't seen either of those products. As far as the historical model is concerned, I don't the mystics are meant to follow the kind of historical model you're thinking of. This is just my opinion, of course, but whereas the AD&D monk class sounds pretty much like it's supposed to fit that model, I don't think that's the case for the mystics (thinking of master's set rules where they were introduced in detail). I see them more as members of philosophical/martial orders, and although I don't have the master's rules in front of me to check, I seem to recall mention of cloisters hiring a few clerics and magic users to provide services to the cloister which they cannot perform themselves. If this recollection is correct, it would highly suggest a distinction between mystics and Immortal-worship, since otherwise one would expect some clerics to live naturally in cloisters, or at least to be there as representatives of the clerical method of worship and not a hiree of the mystics. In fact, the mystic as variant Immortal-worshipping class raises the question as to what the difference between clerics and mystics really is, at least for me. Just my thoughts, Azure ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara novels, and the Duke/King's Road On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > David Melik writes: > > > > Kelvin, then Penhaligon, and N to the Duke's Road Keep. Does anyone know > > anything about that Keep? I wonder if anything was published on it... > > Also, I wonder if the road crosses that river to get to Kelvin. > > It's not mapped, but it seems logical... > > In GAZ 1, I think it mentioned somewhere that that is where B2, > The Keep On The BorderLands, should be set. Try that module for more info. Actually, GAZ 1 recommends placing the Keep on the Borderlands from B2 at the location of Castellan Keep, which is far to the NE of Karameikos, nestled in the mountains and certainly in borderlands (as opposed to the Duke's Road Keep, which is along a major trade road and a very short ride to major cities). Of course you can use the layout of the keep in B2 for any one you wish, although if you used it for the Duke's Road Keep I'd recommend not nick-naming it the keep on the borderlands :) Azure ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:04:46 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > I'm not sure that the Vyalia and Callarii elves came from the > Sylvan realm. Didn't they come from Evergrun BEFORE the Sylvan Realm was > reached? I could have sworn they did... The Shiye elves, under the guidance of Eiryndul, split from Mealiden's elves in 800 BC, crossing to alphatia... and might have a Tree of Life. The Callarii clan left the Sylvan Lands at the same time as the Alfheim elves (800 BC), settling in Traladara instead of the Darokin steppes.. and almost certainly have a Tree of Life. However, in 2100 BC the Meditor and Verdier clans broke from Ilsundal's original migration, settling in Traldar lands.. The Meditor elves are later stranded on the newly-formed islands south of modern Karameikos (1750 BC), and in 1680 BC the Verdier elves join their cousins. My guess (though never specifically stated) is that the Vyalia elves are the descendants of Verdier elves who didn't cross with the rest of the clan... and almost certainly don't have a Tree of Life. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 00:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Daniel Boese pontificated: > > The Shiye elves, under the guidance of Eiryndul, split from Mealiden's > elves in 800 BC, crossing to alphatia... and might have a Tree of Life. > The Callarii clan left the Sylvan Lands at the same time as the Alfheim > elves (800 BC), settling in Traladara instead of the Darokin steppes.. and > almost certainly have a Tree of Life. > However, in 2100 BC the Meditor and Verdier clans broke from Ilsundal's > original migration, settling in Traldar lands.. The Meditor elves are > later stranded on the newly-formed islands south of modern Karameikos > (1750 BC), and in 1680 BC the Verdier elves join their cousins. My guess > (though never specifically stated) is that the Vyalia elves are the > descendants of Verdier elves who didn't cross with the rest of the clan... > and almost certainly don't have a Tree of Life. > This sounds like the most logical explanation so far. Thanks Daniel. I believe in the Alfheim gazteer, it strongly hinted that the Callarii have a Tree of Life, but never mentioned the Vyalia, so my guess is they don't have it. BTW, if the Belcadiz indeed does have a Tree of Life, they might be another reason of their friction with the Erewan. Erewan, feeling that they are a more traditional elf clan, deserves an original Tree of Life, but instead the hated Belcadiz have it. And knowing Belcadiz, they will make sure the Erewan remember that fact whenever they can. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:52:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > Hi all, > I hope my ignorance doesn't waste too much time, but I haven't read up on > the whole Tree of Life thing. My question is, ***Belcadiz elves have a Tree > of Life?*** I like the Belcadiz and use them in my campaign, but I never > considered this kind of 'tie' to nature for them. And I mean 'tie.' I > picture a sort of 'passion for life and sensation' as being typical, but > that's about as close as I would've gone. Is this contention that Belcadiz > elves must have a Tree of Life based on a specific reference, or something > more general in scope (ie, "elves have a Tree of Life" could be subject to > interpretation when taken out of context, and might only apply to the > particular elves being discussed)? > Thanks, > Shelby This is a topic that I've been looking into the past couple of days. My take on things is that the Belcadiz elves split off from Ilsundal's migration before it reached the Sylvan Realm, and thus do not have a tree of life. Similarly, I don't think the Vyalia elves have one either, as I tend to think that they are an offshoot of the Verdier clan of elves (Minrothad Guilds) that stayed behind in Karameikos rather than join their Meditor cousins in Minrothad. As the Verdier clan left the migration before the ToL's were created, neither group would have one. (Of course, others may rule that the Vyalia are descendants of Alfheim elves, and thus do have a tree of life. YMMV) Also, recall that there is a ceremony that can be performed to make the ToL's separate from their mother tree. (Why the Feadiels, with all their knowledge of the ToL's never performed this is, of course, beyond me- then again, I'm not an elf. :) ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 01:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and other worlds Sorry about the blank post I just made, my finger slipped. Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > Funny you should mention that: when I got my hands on the Thunder Rift > material and compared it with my maps of the Known World, I found a hex > in western Rockhome that could have contained the entire Thunder Rift > setting. Can you imagine the fun that would have resulted when Elf > adventurers made their way out of Thunder Rift and discovered that > their land was claimed by a Dwarven king they had never heard of? Can someone describe the Thunder Rift a little bit. I didn't get any of their stuff because it seems so ... basic. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: bruce.pierpont@buckys.com (Bruce Pierpont) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 05:15:56 GMT Subject: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? - -> As many of you may know from reading this list or various TSR books, - -> there is a portal between Mystara and a place called Averoigne on a - -> variant medieval Earth (where Rad/Etienne and the rest of the family - -> of d'Ambreville once lived). I've been wondering if there might be a - -> list of such portals to other (A)D&D 'gaming' worlds, as it were. - -> - -> In one of the old D&D modules I once saw, there was a passage between - -> Mystara and Oerth(?). It involved a cabin or the like in a forest, as - -> I recall. I've also seen reference (maybe in a gazeteer?) to a - -> similar portal or portals somewhere in one of the three nations of - -> Soderfjord, Vestland and Ostland (I can't remember which one). - -> - -> Anyone able to shed some light on these vague, dim memories of mine, - -> or add to them? AFAIK the portals in sodjerford etc. were hinted at in the northern reaches gaz and lead to forgotten realms. I don't remember any portal leading to Oerth, but CM6 has such a cabin which sends the players through time to earlier Mystara's. DA1-4 also centers on such a portal in the 'Comeback Inn' in the Broken Lands. Perhpas your confusing early Mystaran Blackmoor with early Oerth Blackmoor? I understand Arneson's campaign was used as a historical base for both. Bruce Pierpont ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 01:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragonlord Trilogy Daniel Boese pontificated: > > > Spoiler Warning > > > > > > > > > > > > Dragonmage of Mystara Discussed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I just throught that the author after going through so much > > trouble conceling the true name of the Big Bad Guy, he will shock > > us when it is finally revealed, but he never did. Despite some > > inconsistancies, I thought the BBG was going to be Alphak. > Well.. possibly T.G. let it slide. After all, what with all the other From ???@??? Tue Jul 02 13:35:34 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA13054; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 03:33:30 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA14922 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:20:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:20:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199607011720.MAA14922@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #143 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5833a124cc85a77f3651db2b8342b6eb > individual plot elements, a measly little name might easily slip by him.. > :) > > -- > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca > > - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 01:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life > > My take on things is that the Belcadiz elves split off from Ilsundal's > migration before it reached the Sylvan Realm, and thus do not have a tree > of life. Can someone refreash my memory on a couple of points? Where is Sylvan Realm? Is it Wendar? and does elves up there have a ToL? I really hate it that I'm seperated from my gaming material by about 3000 miles :( BTW, who said Ilsundal is so caught up with the Tree of Life thing, that he became an immortal to make it work, or something similar. And in what book can that quote be found. > > Also, recall that there is a ceremony that can be performed to make the > ToL's separate from their mother tree. (Why the Feadiels, with all their > knowledge of the ToL's never performed this is, of course, beyond me- > then again, I'm not an elf. :) But it is still different from an original ToL, right? In term of power, ability, etc. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 13:36:50 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] the Duke/King's Road At 13.34 28/06/96 PDT, you wrote: >>Duke's Road is the road that connects Mirro to Kelvin to >>Threshold, right? Now renamed into King's Road. >> >Well, close, but not exactly. I looked at the old 8-mile/hex map in the >Rules Cyclopedia, which shows it starts at Krakatos, not Mirros (previously >Specularum). Right before reaching Kelvin, it sort of half-circles around >W, N, and E through a couple of places, endoing in Threshold. It goes NE to >Kelvin, then Penhaligon, and N to the Duke's Road Keep. Does anyone know >anything about that Keep? I wonder if anything was published on it... >Also, I wonder if the road crosses that river to get to Kelvin. >It's not mapped, but it seems logical... > According to Gaz1 the Duke's Road goes from Specularum to the Northern border (i.e. Duke's Road Keep) passing trough Kelvin and Penhaligon. And yes, there is actually a bridge in Kelvin on the Shutturga(?) river. About the Keep there are a dozen of lines in Gaz1, nothing much interesting except that its garnison is called "Goblin exterminators". ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 15:17:10 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life At 21.52 30/06/96 -0700, Cthulhudrew wrote: >Also, recall that there is a ceremony that can be performed to make the >ToL's separate from their mother tree. (Why the Feadiels, with all their >knowledge of the ToL's never performed this is, of course, beyond me- >then again, I'm not an elf. :) Actually I think that any Elvish Clan never performed this ceremony (Gaz5). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 15:16:54 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life At 19.02 29/06/96 -0400, Kavyid@aol.com wrote: >Finally, in regard to the Trees of Life left behind in Alfheim/Aengmor: that >would be the second time that a large group of Elves abandoned their Trees >of Life in enemy territory, as the _Tree of Life_ describes an earlier such >incident. My guess is that the Trees of Life were immune to the warping >effect created by the magic of the Shadow Elves and were somehow able >to conceal themselves from detection. My guess is that the new Trees of >Life owned by the Alfheim refugees will be okay until the Shadow Elves >find the Trees of Life in Alfheim -- then we have the makings of another >adventure similar to the _Tree of Life_ module. > Actually WotI states (page 84): "...trees of life (...) are now dying.", so I don't think they were immune from Shadow Elves magic. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 15:16:57 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life At 23.04 30/06/96 -0400, Daniel Boese wrote: > The Shiye elves, under the guidance of Eiryndul, split from Mealiden's >elves in 800 BC, crossing to alphatia... and might have a Tree of Life. > The Callarii clan left the Sylvan Lands at the same time as the Alfheim >elves (800 BC), settling in Traladara instead of the Darokin steppes.. and >almost certainly have a Tree of Life. Tanks Daniel for supporting me here. :-) BTW: a reference to Callari elves having a Tree of Life is given also in Gaz5. > However, in 2100 BC the Meditor and Verdier clans broke from Ilsundal's >original migration, settling in Traldar lands.. The Meditor elves are >later stranded on the newly-formed islands south of modern Karameikos >(1750 BC), and in 1680 BC the Verdier elves join their cousins. My guess >(though never specifically stated) is that the Vyalia elves are the >descendants of Verdier elves who didn't cross with the rest of the clan... >and almost certainly don't have a Tree of Life. > Yes, you're probably right. Actually my guess at Vyalia having a Tree of life and coming from the Sylvan Realm was just a ..ahem.. guess. So, in AC 1000 we have: 6 ToL in Alfheim, 1 ToL in the Sylvan Realm, 1 by the Callarii in Karameikos and another 1 in Alphatia by Shye-Lawr (though they're followers of Eiryndul). Where is the last one ? I don't think that Belcadiz elves have a Tree of Life, because IIRC in Gaz3 they're described as coming from a land south of the Sea of Dread (Yes, I know that every elf comes from the southern continent, but those that followed Ilsundal went first north then came back south). Moreover their way of life is more urban-oriented than those of the forest-elves. My guess would be that they come from the Savage Baronies in the Savage Coast. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:25:05 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB672A.F15FDEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > 4) Since mystics are related to the immortals I assume that > at the levels where the mystics would be given > special powers in the "book" mystic, I give them > special powers more appropriate to their immortal. Assuming, of course, that you bring that to the campaign. Nowhere in the Cyclopedia or Master's rules does it say anything about a relationship between mystics and Immortals or their religions. I, for one, treat mystics as philosopher/warriors who derive their power from an inner spirituality and not from the Immortals. By this thinking, clerics get their powers from devotion, magic-users from study, and mystics from inner discipline. Nothing against your view, mind you, but I just wanted to point out that that's just one way of viewing mystics and not the default view according to the rules. - --Azure Actually, the Rules Cyclopedia states, "Mystics are monastic humans..." The word monastic is defined as, "Pertaining to monks or to a monastery." Monks are defined as, "A member of a religious community..." And a monastery is defined as, "A group of buildings housing an order of monks." All definitions are taken from "The New Lexicon Websters Dictionary of the English Language." To me this impied directly that mystics are members of a religious community. 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I have another question.... I have the 2nd ed. guide, but it dont tell me how to make an oriental mage. Please help me out here! ________________________________ f b a r r 9 8 @ g n n . c o m http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/ http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/andy/ http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/james/ ******************************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #143 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 2 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 144 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:14:01 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Savage Coast maps (fwd) A sent a query to Sean Reynolds when I mentioned that I'd prefer a 'two-column' format, and he replied... - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 11:06:14 -0400 From: TSRInc@aol.com To: dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca Subject: Re: Savage Coast maps >By the way; will there be any maps, and if so, in what format? Yes (two of the Savage coast - one showing the political boundaries, another showing the various regions of the curse, and four half-page maps relating to adventures (two maps for each adventure)). I haven't decided on a format yet ... I'll be aiming for the best quality while remaining cross-platform compatible. JPG or GIF. - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ *The Gen Con 1996 registration book is online at the sites above* ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:04:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > Actually WotI states (page 84): "...trees of life (...) are now dying.", so > I don't think they were immune from Shadow Elves magic. > Aren't Trees of Life consider as artifacts? If that is the case, shouldn't they be most immune to mortal magic? Beside, I don't think Ilsundal will let his pet trees to be destoryed so easily. I mean, he can always teleport them into somewhere in HW for safe keeping for a while, right? - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "Dean Gilbert" Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 10:17:08 +0000 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life > From: Jody Duncan > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life > To: mystara-l@io.com > Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 21:19:48 EDT > Reply-to: mystara-l@io.com > Fabrizio Paoli writes: > > > > I tried to figure out where the 10 ToL are located before WotI (AC 1000): > > 1 in the Sylvan Realm (the original ToL) > > 6 in Alfheim (+1, the Feador one, daughter of the original ToL) > > (a daughter of the Erendyl's ToL is probably in Glantri by Erewan elves) > > 1 by Callarii elves in Karameikos > > 1 by Vyalia elves in Thyatis > > 1 by Shye-Lawr elves in Alfheim > > What about the elves in Wendar? ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > So, in AC 1000 we have: 6 ToL in Alfheim, 1 ToL in the Sylvan Realm, 1 by > the Callarii in Karameikos and another 1 in Alphatia by Shye-Lawr (though > they're followers of Eiryndul). Where is the last one ? I have a feeling that the location of the last ToL is intentionally left ambiguous, so each individual DM can place the tree at place where he felt most proper. Perhaps, we should left it that way. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:35:38 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages > Thank you for the vast reply on Mystics. I have another > question.... I have the 2nd ed. guide, but it doesn't tell me how to > make an oriental mage. Please help me out here! I assume by oriental mage, you mean 'Wu Jen' from Oriental Adventures (1st ed), or the Complete Wizard's Handbook (2nd ed) That reminds me.. I know that European and Middle East civilizations are fairly well represented in Mystara, as are certain Native (australian, american, and other) ones.. but the only Oriental one I know of is the Rakasta (feline humanoids) in Bellayne and on Patera. Does anybody know of an Oriental (or African, for that matter) culture on Mystara? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:58:20 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life > > My take on things is that the Belcadiz elves split off from Ilsundal's > > migration before it reached the Sylvan Realm, and thus do not have a tree > > of life. > Can someone refreash my memory on a couple of points? Where is Sylvan > Realm? Is it Wendar? The Sylvan Realm is a land on the northwest of Brun (about where Oregon would be, Thyatis being equivilent to Florida, I believe). Wendar is a country bordering on the north of Glantri. > and does elves up there have a ToL? In the adventure CM7: Tree of Life, the party goes up to the Sylvan Realm, kills the BadGuy, wakes the suspended-animation elves, and meets their Tree of Life. > BTW, who said Ilsundal is so caught up with the Tree of Life thing, > that he became an immortal to make it work, or something similar. > And in what book can that quote be found. Er.. Gazetteer 5, The Elves of Alfheim. > > Also, recall that there is a ceremony that can be performed to make the > > ToL's separate from their mother tree. > But it is still different from an original ToL, right? In term of > power, ability, etc. No, once the ceremony is performed on a 'daughter' ToL, it becomes a full-fledged Tree of Life on its own. > > (Why the Feadiels, with all their > > knowledge of the ToL's never performed this is, of course, beyond me- > > then again, I'm not an elf. :) Probably because TSR's design staff forgot about it.. :) Hm.. it did say that it takes a century to prepare for the ritual.. but then again, having come to Alfheim in 600 AC, I'm not really sure of the game reason. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Bruce Pierpont wrote: > AFAIK the portals in sodjerford etc. were hinted at in the northern > reaches gaz and lead to forgotten realms. I don't remember any portal > leading to Oerth, but CM6 has such a cabin which sends the players > through time to earlier Mystara's. DA1-4 also centers on such a portal > in the 'Comeback Inn' in the Broken Lands. Perhpas your confusing > early Mystaran Blackmoor with early Oerth Blackmoor? I understand > Arneson's campaign was used as a historical base for both. Actually, the cabin in CM6 (Where Chaos Reigns) leads to another world where the races of elves, dwarves, etc. are just starting to develop (or be gifted with) their clan relics. The adventure seems to genericize the Trees of Life (along with Forges of Power and Blackflame) by suggesting they're just standard for demi-humans and not the result of historical events, unless you interpret the ToL as having been developed by a Mystaran but then given to all elves everywhere in the multiverse. Something to think about, anyway. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Michael Williams Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Actually WotI states (page 84): "...trees of life (...) are now dying.", so > I don't think they were immune from Shadow Elves magic. Another question from the guy that's really behind... What *is* this Shadowelf magic? My campaigns, and any new information that I have related to Mystara, precede WotI, and one was centered in Alfheim. My understandings, from GAZ13, were that Shadowelfs weren't really _bad_, just a little misunderstood. When they took over, and I'd love it if someone can tell me where I can find details on that invasion, did they completely destroy Alfheim when renaming it Aengmor? I thought they kinda liked trees, just didn't have any while underground. ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > Actually, the Rules Cyclopedia states, "Mystics are monastic humans..." > The word monastic is defined as, "Pertaining to monks or to a monastery." > Monks are defined as, "A member of a religious community..." And a > monastery is defined as, "A group of buildings housing an order of monks." > All definitions are taken from "The New Lexicon Websters Dictionary of the > English Language." To me this impied directly that mystics are members > of a religious community. To each his or her own, but that looks like a rather literal and logistic chain of connections. I don't think mystic=monk, nor that monastic HAS to mean Immortal-worshipping. The line between religion and philosophy is as thick or thin as you want it to be (some consider Buddhisma religion, others, a philosophy) and I just think that the lack of reference to Immortals and religion in the priestly sense suggests more of a philosophical spirituality. By the same token, I could look up cleric in the dictionary and tell you that those are members of a class of pencil-pushers and other office-workers (characters receive Literacy as a free skill and refuse to adventure before 9:00am, after 5:00pm, or on weekends :) ). Of course I'm too lazy to go find a dictionary right now and give something official and verbatim. :) Azure ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > So, in AC 1000 we have: 6 ToL in Alfheim, 1 ToL in the Sylvan Realm, 1 by > the Callarii in Karameikos and another 1 in Alphatia by Shye-Lawr (though > they're followers of Eiryndul). Where is the last one ? > I don't think that Belcadiz elves have a Tree of Life, because IIRC in Gaz3 > they're described as coming from a land south of the Sea of Dread (Yes, I > know that every elf comes from the southern continent, but those that > followed Ilsundal went first north then came back south). Moreover their way > of life is more urban-oriented than those of the forest-elves. My guess > would be that they come from the Savage Baronies in the Savage Coast. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the last of the Trees of Life is left completely open (i.e. whichever supplement just saying that the location of the last one is unknown). My assumption is that one has purposely been declared 'lost' to provide adventure opportunities for the DM, or at least to allow him/her to place it wherever desired. I don't think the author intended anywhere in particular that you're supposed to be able to guess as a certainty. I like the idea of Belcadiz elves having roots in the Savage Coast, given the Hispanic link. I'll have to read up and see how well that can fit. It would certainly be convenient for linking purposes, especially since TSR made a point of drawing a heavy line between the Savage Coast and the Known World. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Daniel Boese pontificated: > > That reminds me.. I know that European and Middle East civilizations are > fairly well represented in Mystara, as are certain Native (australian, > american, and other) ones.. but the only Oriental one I know of is the > Rakasta (feline humanoids) in Bellayne and on Patera. > Does anybody know of an Oriental (or African, for that matter) culture on > Mystara? > Pearl Island and Ochelea(sp) have oriental and African favor in them, but I don't remember which is which. Also, If you include Egypt then there are Nithia and few others. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Daniel Boese pontificated: > > > > Does anybody know of an Oriental (or African, for that matter) culture on > > Mystara? > > > Pearl Island and Ochelea(sp) have oriental and African favor in them, > but I don't remember which is which. Also, If you include Egypt > then there are Nithia and few others. Ochalea has an eastern Asian feel to it in a lot of ways. The Pearl Islands were settled by the Tangor (Nuari) who are a black people, but the culture described by the Dawn of the Emperors makes the Pearl Islands seem more like the Pacific Islands than Africa. If I were trying to pick a place to set a society like Africa, I would probably put it on Tangor or on the northern part of the continent of Brun. (Actually, I've often thought about exploring Tangor, but I've never gotten around to it, and my players haven't yet found the need to wander that far from home) ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:03:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages In a message dated 96-07-01 15:26:20 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: << I assume by oriental mage, you mean 'Wu Jen' from Oriental Adventures (1st ed), or the Complete Wizard's Handbook (2nd ed)>> << Does anybody know of an Oriental (or African, for that matter) culture on Mystara?>> How about Ethengar, based on the historical Mongols? In fact, if you can track down the gazetteer _Golden Khan of Ethengar_, you will find a class called the "hakomon" or something like that. It is a very close match to the Wu Jen of _Oriental Adventures_. As for Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, Ochalea seems to be based on China, while the origin of the Pearl Islands is less certain -- the people look African, but their culture does not seem to match any real world culture that I am familiar with. ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 19:43:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Sunday, 30-Jun-96 10:41 PM > > From: David Lelend \ Internet: (azure@igc.net) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics > > On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > Not that this is all very important, but just as a matter of trivia, I > do not believe that the Mystics were and are regarded with that suspicion . I'm pretty sure that I read it in GAZ 3... >I see > them more as members of philosophical/martial orders, and although I don't > have the master's rules in front of me to check, I seem to recall mention of > cloisters hiring a few clerics and magic users to provide services to the > cloister which they cannot perform themselves. If this recollection is > correct, it would highly suggest a distinction between mystics and > Immortal-worship, since otherwise one would expect some clerics to live > naturally in cloisters, or at least to be there as representatives of the > clerical method of worship and not a hiree of the mystics. In fact, the > mystic as variant Immortal-worshipping class raises the question as to what > the difference between clerics and mystics really is, at least for me. Lay members vs ordained? One can conduct ceremonies, one can't. I'm sure there are examples from 'real life.' Shelby ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:03:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life In a message dated 96-07-01 10:47:04 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << Actually WotI states (page 84): "...trees of life (...) are now dying.", so I don't think they were immune from Shadow Elves magic. >> Thanks for the reminder -- there is a direct contradiction after all. Previously published material would indicate that all seven of the Alfheim clans would now be left Tree-less, as there is no way for them to obtain an independent Tree of Life. Unless.... If we assume that the _Tree of Life_ quest has been accomplished, then the Sylvan Realm is now a flourishing elven domain. It is possible that the Elves might have had time to obtain fresh saplings from the Tree in the Sylvan Realm, which would eliminate the dependence of the Alfheim Elves on the Trees of Life in Alfheim. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue Jul 2 01:04:16 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Mon, 1 Jul 96 21:04 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA19033 for mystara-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:18:25 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA18923 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:03:21 -0500 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA22611 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:02:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA18206 for mystara-l@io.com; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:03:06 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:03:06 -0400 Message-ID: <960701200305_568072301@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Content-Length: 821 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-01 15:26:20 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: << I assume by oriental mage, you mean 'Wu Jen' from Oriental Adventures (1st ed), or the Complete Wizard's Handbook (2nd ed)>> << Does anybody know of an Oriental (or African, for that matter) culture on Mystara?>> How about Ethengar, based on the historical Mongols? In fact, if you can track down the gazetteer _Golden Khan of Ethengar_, you will find a class called the "hakomon" or something like that. It is a very close match to the Wu Jen of _Oriental Adventures_. As for Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, Ochalea seems to be based on China, while the origin of the Pearl Islands is less certain -- the people look African, but their culture does not seem to match any real world culture that I am familiar with. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue Jul 2 01:03:21 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Mon, 1 Jul 96 21:03 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA19017 for mystara-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:17:04 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA18925 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:03:31 -0500 Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA22610 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:02:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA19345 for mystara-l@io.com; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:03:10 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:03:10 -0400 Message-ID: <960701200309_568072280@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Content-Length: 814 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-01 10:47:04 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << Actually WotI states (page 84): "...trees of life (...) are now dying.", so I don't think they were immune from Shadow Elves magic. >> Thanks for the reminder -- there is a direct contradiction after all. Previously published material would indicate that all seven of the Alfheim clans would now be left Tree-less, as there is no way for them to obtain an independent Tree of Life. Unless.... If we assume that the _Tree of Life_ quest has been accomplished, then the Sylvan Realm is now a flourishing elven domain. It is possible that the Elves might have had time to obtain fresh saplings from the Tree in the Sylvan Realm, which would eliminate the dependence of the Alfheim Elves on the Trees of Life in Alfheim. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > As for Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, Ochalea seems to be based on China, Ochalea is definately based on orient, but I don't remember whether it was purely China or a combination of several Far East cultures. I have no idea where they got the kissing custom from, which is very un-oriental. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Daniel Boese pontificated: > > The Sylvan Realm is a land on the northwest of Brun (about where Oregon > would be, Thyatis being equivilent to Florida, I believe). Wendar is a > country bordering on the north of Glantri. I know where Wendar is, where is Sylvan Realm relative to it. > > > > (Why the Feadiels, with all their > > > knowledge of the ToL's never performed this is, of course, beyond me- > > > then again, I'm not an elf. :) > Probably because TSR's design staff forgot about it.. :) > Hm.. it did say that it takes a century to prepare for the ritual.. but > then again, having come to Alfheim in 600 AC, I'm not really sure of the > game reason. > Want to keep the tie as a memorial? Just don't feel like it? The treekeeper is too lazy? :) - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #144 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #145 Reply-To: mystara Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, 2 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 145 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Brohman Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 1:52:47 EDT Subject: [Mystara] + Mystara Faq + Is there a Mystara FAQ floating around the electronic ether anywhere? I have just recently come to Mystara (I never played on Mystara, even with basic D&D) and I am just begining to get an idea of the depth and breadth of Mystaran lore, cultures and history. I think if I am going to do it justice when I run my campaign later this summer, I am going to need a LOT more information than what I currently possess (which consists of the new AD&D Karameikos and Glantri boxed sets, the Northern Reaches Gazetteer, both the Player's and GM's Survival Kits, one booklet from the D&D Immortals rules and the Poor Wizard's III and Joshuan's Almanacs. I am trying to get more of the Gazetteers, but they are rare and hard to find). Later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Definition of a Pessimist: What an Optimist calls a Realist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:58:31 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Fabrizio paoli wrote: > I don't think that Belcadiz elves have a Tree of Life, because IIRC in Gaz3 > they're described as coming from a land south of the Sea of Dread (Yes, I Well, I believe the original assumption of them having a Tree came from the fact that in Gaz3, under the Belcadiz Clan there is listed with others an lady who is named the Tree keeper. That is at least as I remember it, but I think I'll check as I go home... Anyway. I Do still rather agree with you that the Belcadiz do not have a tree of life. It just doesnt seem to fit the picture i have of them. Even the fact that many of them seem to belong to the Whitches make them look un-religious. And it would not suit them to honor an elf of an other breeding from theirs. The Erewan then... In my campaing they do have a tree (even the orc- invasion didnt destroy it). But they are mostly wery hush-hush about it. It is after all a bit strange to keep a religious artifact in an antireligious country. But they have managed by calling their religion more a philosophy (as it often is) and the tree a artifact of power studied for use and honored for the memory of ancestors (thats true too). Just my thouhts about it. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] + Mystara Faq + On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Dave Brohman wrote: > Is there a Mystara FAQ floating around the electronic ether anywhere? The only FAQ I know of is the one for the list, and it doesn't really have any Mystara info in it. There was talk of doing a real FAQ, but that was a while back. Besides, I am sure there are people here who would be willing to answer almost any question you can come up with. > I have just recently come to Mystara (I never played on Mystara, even with > basic D&D) and I am just begining to get an idea of the depth and breadth > of Mystaran lore, cultures and history. If you have the time and inclination, you can check out the previous digests of this list. Not all of it is exciting, but there is a variety of info scattered throughout. They can be found at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm > I think if I am going to do it justice when I run my campaign later > this summer, I am going to need a LOT more information than what I > currently possesss. I am trying to get more of the Gazetteers, but they > are rare and hard to find. The Gazetteers aren't that hard to find if you are willing to deal with people on the net. Have you tried the newsgroup r.g.f.marketplace? I have seen all of the Gazetteers there at various times. One of the people I have dealt with several times, Quincy Koziol (koziol@winter.ncsa.uiuc.edu) has a bunch of the them, plus a large variety of other Mystara stuff, like the Hollow World boxed set with mint condition contents, and many older adventure modules. Also, the full text of the Shadow Elf Gazetteer is available from mpgn.com. It doesn't have the maps or art, but it is free. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Anias Pasi pontificated: > > Anyway. I Do still rather agree with you that the Belcadiz do not have > a tree of life. It just doesnt seem to fit the picture i have of them. > Even the fact that many of them seem to belong to the Whitches make > them look un-religious. And it would not suit them to honor an elf > of an other breeding from theirs. I think you are associating too much real world meaning with the term witch. In the game, it is just a form of magic with no religious association, for or againest. > > The Erewan then... In my campaing they do have a tree (even the orc- > invasion didnt destroy it). But they are mostly wery hush-hush about > it. It is after all a bit strange to keep a religious artifact in an > antireligious country. But they have managed by calling their religion > more a philosophy (as it often is) and the tree a artifact of power > studied for use and honored for the memory of ancestors (thats true too). > That is a good point. BTW, does Glantrian deny the existance of Immortals or just don't want to be associated with them? Also what are Glantrian's view on artifacts, as they are generally crafted and associated with immortals. I think it will hard for a Glantrian wizard who gets his hand on an artifact not to study it, due to its magical nature. But on the other hand will the wizard consider as breaking the law if he possess and uses such things. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 15:25:11 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? Bruce Pierpont writes: > > through time to earlier Mystara's. DA1-4 also centers on such a portal > in the 'Comeback Inn' in the Broken Lands. Perhpas your confusing > early Mystaran Blackmoor with early Oerth Blackmoor? I understand > Arneson's campaign was used as a historical base for both. I don't have any greyhawk material, how similar are the two Blackmoor Kingdoms? ( maps, personalities etc... ) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 15:06:43 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics David Lelend writes: > I also disagree with the speculation that the lack of a link to > religion for Mystics is due to the Code of Ethics or other 'moral > majoritizing' of TSR. For this to be true, the Mystics would have to have > been linked before and that link severed later. As far as I can see, the This is where you are wrong. The Mystic class was based almost exclusively on the AD&D I Monk class. Take a look at the two. They are almost identical. It's very obvious that all TSR did was adapt and slightly alter the Monk ( name change to Mystic ) for OD&D and drop the religious aspect. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 15:28:22 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Shin Chyang Yu writes: > Can someone refreash my memory on a couple of points? Where is Sylvan > Realm? Is it Wendar? and does elves up there have a ToL? I really > hate it that I'm seperated from my gaming material by about 3000 miles :( The Sylvan Realm is the second elven kingdom, and it's located on the western edge of the continent of Brun. They have the original Tree Of Life that Ilsundal created there, but perhaps someone who owns the module Tree Of Life could fill you in better. > BTW, who said Ilsundal is so caught up with the Tree of Life thing, > that he became an immortal to make it work, or something similar. > And in what book can that quote be found. It's in the Elves Of Alfheim GAZ. Also check ot the module Tree Of Life ( I'd like to too, but I don't have it... ) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 15:08:31 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara novels, and the Duke/King's Road David Lelend writes: > > > Kelvin, then Penhaligon, and N to the Duke's Road Keep. Does anyone know > > > anything about that Keep? I wonder if anything was published on it... > > > Also, I wonder if the road crosses that river to get to Kelvin. > > > It's not mapped, but it seems logical... > > > > In GAZ 1, I think it mentioned somewhere that that is where B2, > > The Keep On The BorderLands, should be set. Try that module for more info. > > Actually, GAZ 1 recommends placing the Keep on the Borderlands > from B2 at the location of Castellan Keep, which is far to the NE of > Karameikos, nestled in the mountains and certainly in borderlands (as > opposed to the Duke's Road Keep, which is along a major trade road and a > very short ride to major cities). Of course you can use the layout of > the keep in B2 for any one you wish, although if you used it for the > Duke's Road Keep I'd recommend not nick-naming it the keep on the > borderlands :) Ah! Ok. I thought I might have been wrong. I didn't have GAZ 1 with me at the time, but I recall it now. My apologies if i mislead anyone... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 16:01:16 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Daniel Boese writes: > > > Thank you for the vast reply on Mystics. I have another > > question.... I have the 2nd ed. guide, but it doesn't tell me how to > > make an oriental mage. Please help me out here! > I assume by oriental mage, you mean 'Wu Jen' from Oriental Adventures > (1st ed), or the Complete Wizard's Handbook (2nd ed) > That reminds me.. I know that European and Middle East civilizations are > fairly well represented in Mystara, as are certain Native (australian, > american, and other) ones.. but the only Oriental one I know of is the > Rakasta (feline humanoids) in Bellayne and on Patera. > Does anybody know of an Oriental (or African, for that matter) culture on > Mystara? The Jennites on the outer world and in the HW are based on the Mongols. Not much detail is given for them, but any Forgotten Realms Horde supplements could be easily adapted. As for African there are the Nithians in the HW, the Thothians in the Known World and the Tanagoro in the HW. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 16:14:27 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Kaviyd@aol.com writes: > > while the origin of the Pearl Islands is less certain -- the people look > African, > but their culture does not seem to match any real world culture that I am > familiar with. How about the Caribbean? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 15:09:15 CDT Subject: [Mystara] [mystara] More on Immortals and Spheres >Mr. Bruce Pierpont (I'm sorry if I spelled it incorrectly) has created >such a list containing all of the major immortal from A to K, I think. >You can get that list from the mailing list archive or I can email it >to you if you like. Glantri boxset have been released for quite a >while now, but I will recommand the old Gazteers. I finally located the Galantri box set....been searching awhile. :) I would also like to be emailed this list. Thank you kindly Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Resident member of the SCA, SCV, and Starfleet. Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe Babylon 5 the last, best hope for Science Fiction television ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 16:17:39 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Mystara Faq + Dave Brohman writes: > > Is there a Mystara FAQ floating around the electronic ether anywhere? > I have just recently come to Mystara (I never played on Mystara, even with > basic D&D) and I am just begining to get an idea of the depth and breadth > of Mystaran lore, cultures and history. I think if I am going to do it > justice when I run my campaign later this summer, I am going to need a LOT > more information than what I currently possess (which consists of the new > AD&D Karameikos and Glantri boxed sets, the Northern Reaches Gazetteer, > both the Player's and GM's Survival Kits, one booklet from the D&D > Immortals rules and the Poor Wizard's III and Joshuan's Almanacs. I am > trying to get more of the Gazetteers, but they are rare and hard to find). I have a lot of info on Mystara, it wouldn't be hard to meet you at school somewhere and allow you to have a chance to look at it. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Ochalea is definately based on orient, but I don't remember whether > it was purely China or a combination of several Far East cultures. > I have no idea where they got the kissing custom from, which is > very un-oriental. What kissing custom? Could you explain and give a reference? Thanks, - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 15:12:20 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Daniel Boese writes: > > I'm not sure that the Vyalia and Callarii elves came from the > > Sylvan realm. Didn't they come from Evergrun BEFORE the Sylvan Realm was > > reached? I could have sworn they did... > The Shiye elves, under the guidance of Eiryndul, split from Mealiden's > elves in 800 BC, crossing to alphatia... and might have a Tree of Life. Mealiden's migration. How many Trees Of Life did they bring with them? One, or one for each clan? That's where the answer to a Shiye tree of life is... > The Callarii clan left the Sylvan Lands at the same time as the Alfheim > elves (800 BC), settling in Traladara instead of the Darokin steppes.. and > almost certainly have a Tree of Life. Ok, I thought they'd broken from Ilsundal's migration... > However, in 2100 BC the Meditor and Verdier clans broke from Ilsundal's > original migration, settling in Traldar lands.. The Meditor elves are > later stranded on the newly-formed islands south of modern Karameikos > (1750 BC), and in 1680 BC the Verdier elves join their cousins. My guess > (though never specifically stated) is that the Vyalia elves are the > descendants of Verdier elves who didn't cross with the rest of the clan... > and almost certainly don't have a Tree of Life. Do you know where ( in which supplement ) I could find info on these two clans? Thanks! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 18:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Kaviyd@aol.com writes: > > > > while the origin of the Pearl Islands is less certain -- the people look > > African, > > but their culture does not seem to match any real world culture that I am > > familiar with. > > How about the Caribbean? Sounds about right to me. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > David Lelend writes: > > > I also disagree with the speculation that the lack of a link to > > religion for Mystics is due to the Code of Ethics or other 'moral > > majoritizing' of TSR. For this to be true, the Mystics would have to have > > been linked before and that link severed later. As far as I can see, the > > This is where you are wrong. The Mystic class was based almost > exclusively on the AD&D I Monk class. Take a look at the two. They are > almost identical. It's very obvious that all TSR did was adapt and > slightly alter the Monk ( name change to Mystic ) for OD&D and drop the > religious aspect. Excuse me? Since when are these matters of right and wrong, for you or me to decide? This is all a matter of interpretation, as there is no explicit connection made between OD&D mystics and Immortals. For that matter, there is no explicit connection between mystics and AD&D monks. Of course they are related, but who are we to 'decide' for everyone else what the true relationship is? The 'moralizing' by TSR is not, I think, a valid explanation for the differences between monks and mystics. The shift in target consumer base to that of preadolescents is a relatively new development. I remind you that the rules for mystics preceed the Cyclopedia and are to be found in the black Master's rules. Notice that the Immortals rules, which came afterwards, included demons (and so named), including Demogorgon and Orcus. Are you suggesting that TSR was afraid that someone might be offended by a religious monk character class and so downplayed the link to Immortals, but proceeded to further develop the cleric class (which is about as religious as it gets) in the same set that introduced mystic PCs, along with rules for ATTAINING Immortality? And THEN to follow it up with a rules set allowing PCs to not simply retire as deities but to PLAY them, along with presenting info and stats on Demons themselves, with explicit adaptation of historically-known demons? I don't quite see how your explanation is feasible, much less how mine is just "wrong." I don't see why political pressure has to be the answer to this design issue. Isn't it possible that even if the mystic was based on the monk that in further developing OD&D with a different flavor and focus than AD&D the designers thought it would be neat to give them a different, less religious feel? When I get back to my books I'm going to have to check my AD&D1 PH since, for that matter, I'm not sure how gung-ho religious AD&D monks are, definitions notwithstanding (see my earlier post). I think it's more than possible that mystics were developed with a different set of creative goals in mind, but that's not even what's at issue for me. My original reason for jumping onto this thread was that there was a discussion of mystics in which one or more people seemed to hold as an indisputed fact that the class is religious and based on relgious orders. I simply wanted to present an alternative viewpoint because I do not see it the way you do, and to remind veterans and assure newbies that there's more than one way to cast a mystic, even if you're following the rules verbatim. In any event, it seems that you've conceded that mystics aren't necessarily religious in the sense clerics are, since you now claim that the religious aspect was dropped in the transition from AD&D to OD&D, if that's the right way to think of it. If you really think that monks are religious and that mystics are watered down monks (religion-wise), then that's fine, but remember that some of us are playing OD&D and that, A vs. O aside, if you want to bring something you think was lost back to the mystic, that's your decision and not canon. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 14:32:04 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics David Lelend writes: > I also disagree with the speculation that the lack of a link to > religion for Mystics is due to the Code of Ethics or other 'moral > majoritizing' of TSR. For this to be true, the Mystics would have to have > been linked before and that link severed later. As far as I can see, the Jody Duncan writes: This is where you are wrong. The Mystic class was based almost exclusively on the AD&D I Monk class. Take a look at the two. They are almost identical. It's very obvious that all TSR did was adapt and slightly alter the Monk ( name change to Mystic ) for OD&D and drop the religious aspect. It is true that the mechanics for the Mystic class was largely based on the AD&D Monk class, but the concept and use of the character is entirely it's own. Although it is up to the individual DM on how he uses mystics, they were never meant to be religious followers, but rather strict disciplenarians who gained their powers from a mastery of their body. J. Ovard ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #145 ***************************** mystara-digest Wednesday, 3 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 146 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kevinaug@ihug.co.nz (Kevin Augenstein) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:21:35 +1200 Subject: [Mystara] Plaktur In the maps of the savage baronies, there is a city in the central Yazak Steppes, called Plaktur. There are no other cities near it and no associated territories. Is this a humaniod city ? Does anyone know where information on it can be found. - ----- Kevin Finn Augenstein. kevinaug@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:16:09 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Glantrians and Immortals In a message dated 96-07-02 13:43:48 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << That is a good point. BTW, does Glantrian deny the existance of Immortals or just don't want to be associated with them?>> They seem to accept the existence of Immortals but consider them unworthy of worship. From what I have read about the Mystaran Immortals, I have a great deal of sympathy for that viewpoint. More specifically, Glantrians seem to have an almost scientific approach to magic in which nothing that a Mage accomplishes by his own efforts is forbidden. Taking inspiration from Immortals is also acceptable -- after all, Glantri does have temples dedicated to Rad, and the Elves offer their respects to Ilsundal. However, depending on a higher power for one's magic is another matter entirely. Glantrians seek to become Immortals, not to serve them. << Also what are Glantrian's view on artifacts, as they are generally crafted and associated with immortals. I think it will hard for a Glantrian wizard who gets his hand on an artifact not to study it, due to its magical nature. But on the other hand will the wizard consider as breaking the law if he possess and uses such things. >> Artifacts are magical items, to be studied and used as the owner wishes. Remember that the "inner circle" at the School of Magic studies and makes use of the Radiance, which is the magical energy that comes from an artifact known as the Nucleus of the Spheres. The only magic items that are likely to bother Glantrians are "Cleric-only" items, which by their very nature are tainted by the touch of the Immortals. ------------------------------ From: fbarr98@gnn.com (The Barrett's) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:46:48 Subject: [Mystara] MONKS WUPPS! i made a little mistake! i am sorry. when i said mages, i meant monks. Oriental monks. do you know how to make them? ________________________________ f b a r r 9 8 @ g n n . c o m http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/ http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/andy/ http://members.gnn.com/fbarr98/james/ ******************************** ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 22:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Wasn't Ochalea that have the custom of kissing instead of shaking hand? Or did I confused the islands again? I'm pretty sure it is from Dawn of the Empires. David Lelend pontificated: > > On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > > > Ochalea is definately based on orient, but I don't remember whether > > it was purely China or a combination of several Far East cultures. > > I have no idea where they got the kissing custom from, which is > > very un-oriental. > > What kissing custom? Could you explain and give a reference? Thanks, > > --Azure > - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 22:33:35 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Portals between Mystara and AD&D worlds? GAZ 7, The Norther Reaches, says that one may access Yggdrasil, the World Ash, from the Reaches, and from there travel to the Moonshae Northmen area of the Forgotten Realms or to the Snow Barbarian's Kingdom of Schnai on Greyhawk. Later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Definition of a Pessimist: What an Optimist calls a Realist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 22:28:29 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara novels, and the Duke/King's Road[D Someone Wrote: > > > In GAZ 1, I think it mentioned somewhere that that is where B2, > > > The Keep On The BorderLands, should be set. Try that module for more info. I can't recall where I saw it, but I KNOW I saw a map of Mystara which had the locations of ALL of the B series modules marked out on it. DOes anyone know what this map is and where it is from? Later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Definition of a Pessimist: What an Optimist calls a Realist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 22:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Mystara Faq + Dave Brohman pontificated: > > Is there a Mystara FAQ floating around the electronic ether anywhere? > I have just recently come to Mystara (I never played on Mystara, even with > basic D&D) and I am just begining to get an idea of the depth and breadth > of Mystaran lore, cultures and history. I think if I am going to do it > justice when I run my campaign later this summer, I am going to need a LOT > more information than what I currently possess (which consists of the new > AD&D Karameikos and Glantri boxed sets, the Northern Reaches Gazetteer, > both the Player's and GM's Survival Kits, one booklet from the D&D > Immortals rules and the Poor Wizard's III and Joshuan's Almanacs. I am > trying to get more of the Gazetteers, but they are rare and hard to find). > My suggestions will be getting the first two Almanacs and Wrath of the Immortals Box set first. That should give you a pretty good overview of Mystara. They are also out of print, but not as long, so should be a little easier to find. The Hollow World box set and Champions of Mystara might also be useful if your party going to do a lots of travel from the main Known World region. But if you can find them, definatly try to get the Gazetteers, especially for those countries that your campaign going to focus on. However, personally, I don't like the Dawn of Empires box set that describe Thystis and Alphatia that much. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 3 02:29:17 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 2 Jul 96 22:29 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA28291 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:31:48 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA28205 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:26:18 -0500 Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA10649 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:15:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA12390 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:16:09 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:16:09 -0400 Message-ID: <960702211608_426496971@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Glantrians and Immortals Content-Length: 1645 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-02 13:43:48 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << That is a good point. BTW, does Glantrian deny the existance of Immortals or just don't want to be associated with them?>> They seem to accept the existence of Immortals but consider them unworthy of worship. From what I have read about the Mystaran Immortals, I have a great deal of sympathy for that viewpoint. More specifically, Glantrians seem to have an almost scientific approach to magic in which nothing that a Mage accomplishes by his own efforts is forbidden. Taking inspiration from Immortals is also acceptable -- after all, Glantri does have temples dedicated to Rad, and the Elves offer their respects to Ilsundal. However, depending on a higher power for one's magic is another matter entirely. Glantrians seek to become Immortals, not to serve them. << Also what are Glantrian's view on artifacts, as they are generally crafted and associated with immortals. I think it will hard for a Glantrian wizard who gets his hand on an artifact not to study it, due to its magical nature. But on the other hand will the wizard consider as breaking the law if he possess and uses such things. >> Artifacts are magical items, to be studied and used as the owner wishes. Remember that the "inner circle" at the School of Magic studies and makes use of the Radiance, which is the magical energy that comes from an artifact known as the Nucleus of the Spheres. The only magic items that are likely to bother Glantrians are "Cleric-only" items, which by their very nature are tainted by the touch of the Immortals. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:08:56 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Another weird idea In my earlier Mystara/Known World campaign, I came up with yet another weird idea. Given the differences between D&D and AD&D and the descriptions of diaboli as coming from "beyond the dimensional barrier", I decided that any character imported into my campaign from a "normal" AD&D campaign was actually a Diabolus. Very special magic was required for any such adventurers to appear as anything but monsters on Mystara. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 3 04:55:04 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 3 Jul 96 00:55 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA29609 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:24:07 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA29503 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:10:49 -0500 Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA20554 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:08:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA19583 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:08:56 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:08:56 -0400 Message-ID: <960703000853_230065651@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Another weird idea Content-Length: 424 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In my earlier Mystara/Known World campaign, I came up with yet another weird idea. Given the differences between D&D and AD&D and the descriptions of diaboli as coming from "beyond the dimensional barrier", I decided that any character imported into my campaign from a "normal" AD&D campaign was actually a Diabolus. Very special magic was required for any such adventurers to appear as anything but monsters on Mystara. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:20:03 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara novels, and the Duke/King's Road[D > I can't recall where I saw it, but I KNOW I saw a map of Mystara which had > the locations of ALL of the B series modules marked out on it. DOes anyone > know what this map is and where it is from? That was in the blue-box Expert Set.. I'll dig mine out this afternoon and type out the locations. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 14:20:30 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life At 14.22 01/07/96 -0400, Michael Williams wrote: >What *is* this Shadowelf magic? My campaigns, and any >new information that I have related to Mystara, precede >WotI, and one was centered in Alfheim. My understandings, From ???@??? Sat Jul 06 13:46:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA05749; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:09:14 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA05064 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:43:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:43:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199607031943.OAA05064@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #146 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 4aa33ed12bd3c13e94c3bd0fbaf5f839 Status: U >from GAZ13, were that Shadowelfs weren't really _bad_, >just a little misunderstood. When they took over, and >I'd love it if someone can tell me where I can find details >on that invasion, did they completely destroy Alfheim >when renaming it Aengmor? I thought they kinda liked >trees, just didn't have any while underground. On WotI you can find about 2 paragraphs on the invasion, but soon you'll find much more on this mailing list. Stay tuned. :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 14:42:19 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics Good info about mystics orders may be found in Champions of Mystara in the explorer book in the section about Sind. Seemingly there is not a strong link between those mystics and the immortals, though both mystics and clerics (and druids) are part of the caste of Rishiya, i.e. of the caste of those people who provide spiritual guidance to the people of Sind. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 14:20:26 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life At 10.17 01/07/96 +0000, Dean Gilbert wrote: >> > I tried to figure out where the 10 ToL are located before WotI (AC 1000): >> > 1 in the Sylvan Realm (the original ToL) >> > 6 in Alfheim (+1, the Feador one, daughter of the original ToL) >> > (a daughter of the Erendyl's ToL is probably in Glantri by Erewan elves) >> > 1 by Callarii elves in Karameikos >> > 1 by Vyalia elves in Thyatis >> > 1 by Shye-Lawr elves in Alfheim >> > > >What about the elves in Wendar? > According to PWA2 Wendar elves were one of those groups that settled among Blackmoorians before the Rain of Fire, but survived the destruction of Blackmoor, so they couldn't have a ToL as this was created by Ilsundal many years after. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 14:20:23 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life At 13.04 01/07/96 -0400, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >> Actually WotI states (page 84): "...trees of life (...) are now dying.", so >> I don't think they were immune from Shadow Elves magic. >> >Aren't Trees of Life consider as artifacts? If that is the case, >shouldn't they be most immune to mortal magic? Beside, I don't >think Ilsundal will let his pet trees to be destoryed so easily. >I mean, he can always teleport them into somewhere in HW for safe >keeping for a while, right? Codex of the Immortals says that the Tree of Life is a living artifact that Ilsundal created on his road to Immortality; but: 1) Ilsundal undertook the Path of the Paragon that requires him to quest for a lesser artifact of the sphere of Energy and to create an entirely new magical item, but not to create an artifact, 2) if it was really an artifact shouldn't it have Handicaps & Penalties ? About teleporting them somewhere else you're correct, but this is not written anywhere. I was only sticking to TSR stuff. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 10:45:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Modules Location Daniel Boese pontificated: > > > I can't recall where I saw it, but I KNOW I saw a map of Mystara which had > > the locations of ALL of the B series modules marked out on it. DOes anyone > > know what this map is and where it is from? > > That was in the blue-box Expert Set.. I'll dig mine out this afternoon > and type out the locations. > I believe B1-9 changed the locations of some of the modules. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 3 Jul 96 13:36:11 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics J." Ovard writes: > > > David Lelend writes: > > > I also disagree with the speculation that the lack of a link to > > religion for Mystics is due to the Code of Ethics or other 'moral > > majoritizing' of TSR. For this to be true, the Mystics would have to have > > been linked before and that link severed later. As far as I can see, the > > Jody Duncan writes: > This is where you are wrong. The Mystic class was based almost > exclusively on the AD&D I Monk class. Take a look at the two. They are > almost identical. It's very obvious that all TSR did was adapt and > slightly alter the Monk ( name change to Mystic ) for OD&D and drop the > religious aspect. > > It is true that the mechanics for the Mystic class was largely based on > the AD&D Monk class, but the concept and use of the character is > entirely it's own. Although it is up to the individual DM on how he > uses mystics, they were never meant to be religious followers, but > rather strict disciplenarians who gained their powers from a mastery > of their body. Yeah, you're right. But I'm not disagreeing with you. All I'm saying is that Mystic/Monk concept *USED* to incorporate religious ideas, but TSR's moralizing removed the religious aspect from the Monk and turned it into the Mystic. The Mystic was not a brand new concept they built from scratch. They simply modified the Monk class, which was meant to have religious significance. The only reason the Mystic doesn't have religious meaning is because of TSR's moralizing. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Wed, 3 Jul 96 14:00:50 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics David Lelend writes: > > > I also disagree with the speculation that the lack of a link to > > > religion for Mystics is due to the Code of Ethics or other 'moral > > > majoritizing' of TSR. For this to be true, the Mystics would have to have > > > been linked before and that link severed later. As far as I can see, the > > > > This is where you are wrong. The Mystic class was based almost > > exclusively on the AD&D I Monk class. Take a look at the two. They are > > almost identical. It's very obvious that all TSR did was adapt and > > slightly alter the Monk ( name change to Mystic ) for OD&D and drop the > > religious aspect. > > Excuse me? Since when are these matters of right and wrong, for > you or me to decide? Excuse me. Please don't get carried away. I'm not telling anyone what to do or whose right or wrong. If you really want to yell and scream try using an advocacy newsgroup instead of a list, I don't want a flame war with you. Just try and listen to what I'm saying before responding, ok? > matter, there is no explicit connection between mystics and AD&D monks. > Of course they are related, but who are we to 'decide' for everyone else > what the true relationship is? Their relationship is *EXTREMELY* obvious. I have both sets of rules and they are almost identical in abilities. It would be ludicrous to say that TSR didn't base the Mystic on the Monk. A statement was made to the effect that, in order for the lack of religion in the Mystic class to be the fault of TSR's moralizing, it would have had to have been linked with religion and then have that link severed. It was. The Mystic *IS* a modified form of the Monk class. The Monk class contained religious conatations, the Mystic class doesn't. The religious link was severed when the Monk was adapted to the Mystic. > the Immortals rules, which came afterwards, included demons (and so > named), including Demogorgon and Orcus. Are you suggesting that TSR was > afraid that someone might be offended by a religious monk character class > and so downplayed the link to Immortals, but proceeded to further develop > the cleric class (which is about as religious as it gets) in the same set > that introduced mystic PCs, along with rules for ATTAINING Immortality? > And THEN to follow it up with a rules set allowing PCs to not simply > retire as deities but to PLAY them, along with presenting info and stats > on Demons themselves, with explicit adaptation of historically-known > demons? I don't quite see how your explanation is feasible, much less how > mine is just "wrong." The same Immortals set that stressed at every possible curve that Immortals were not "Gods" but extremely powerful beings? TSR went to great lengths to REMOVE any religious ideas from Immortals and Clerics, who weren't religious, they just followed their Immortal's philosophy. Are you saying that TSR's moralizing doesn't exist? They couldn't just remove the Cleric, as it is ( and always has been ) an integral part of the game, so instead of removing it, they tried to remove references to "religious" things from the Cleric class by renaming them something else. In the case of the Monk, which never was a very important class, it was quite easy for them to rename the whole class and remove all religious meaning from it. > I don't see why political pressure has to be the > answer to this design issue. Isn't it possible that even if the mystic > was based on the monk that in further developing OD&D with a different > flavor and focus than AD&D the designers thought it would be neat to give > them a different, less religious feel? Yes, it is possible, but TSR has made it very obvious that they removed religious conetations quite deliberately, and not for game reasons, in all parts of OD&D. > relgious orders. I simply wanted to present an alternative viewpoint > because I do not see it the way you do, and to remind veterans and assure > newbies that there's more than one way to cast a mystic, even if you're > following the rules verbatim. You see it exactly the same way I do. Everyone has the right to play Mystics however they want, I personally play them as they are in the cyclopedia, with no religious side, I didn't like that about the Monk. But my opinions are not what I was talking about, the Mystic is based on the Monk, the Monk was religious, that's all I'm saying. There's not much to argue about in that statement. > In any event, it seems that you've conceded that mystics aren't > necessarily religious in the sense clerics are, since you now claim that > the religious aspect was dropped in the transition from AD&D to OD&D, if > that's the right way to think of it. If you really think that monks are > religious and that mystics are watered down monks (religion-wise), then > that's fine, but remember that some of us are playing OD&D and that, A vs. O > aside, if you want to bring something you think was lost back to the > mystic, that's your decision and not canon. You really dislike people who play AD&D don't you? Even to the point that you assumed since I made a statement about something being derived from AD&D you assumed I was an AD&D player? Not true at all my friend. I have been playing EXCLUSIVELY OD&D in the Mystara setting for 10 years. I just happen to know what the Mystic was based on. I'm not arguing A vs. O. it doesn't matter to me. I like the Mystic without the religious crap, but if it wasn't for TSR moralizing, the the Mystic would still be called "Monk" and would still be affiliated with religious ideas. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #146 ***************************** mystara-digest Thursday, 4 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 147 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:50:48 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Modules Location > > > I can't recall where I saw it, but I KNOW I saw a map of Mystara which had > > > the locations of ALL of the B series modules marked out on it. DOes anyone > > > know what this map is and where it is from? > > That was in the blue-box Expert Set.. I'll dig mine out this afternoon > > and type out the locations. (I dug out the modules themselves and checked more than the B series.. note that a lot of them are set pre-1000AC, if not earlier (ie, X6 or X9) ) B1: The Cruth Mts, 50 miles west of Threshold B2: north-eastern Karameikos, at the start of the river B3: eastern Karameikos, by the Lake of Lost Dreams B4: Ylaruam, along the path from Selnica to Ylaruam B5: the "River Shrill", possibly in Karameikos B6: Specularum, Karameikos B7: ? Doesn't seem to fit B8: ? Doesn't seem to fit B9: retro-placed in Karameikos B10: (don't have it) B11: (don't have it) B12: starts near Penhaligon, Karameikos BSOLO: The Ethengar Khanates, near the Streel M1/MSOLO: the pass between the Five Shires and Darokin DDA1: (don't have it) X1: south of Minrothad/Ierendi X2: Glantri, along the main Glantri river, about 15 miles from the Broken Lands. X3: Rhoona, Vestland, by the "Norrvik" river, beside the Rockhome border X4: to the northwest of Glantri X5: to the northwest of Glantri X6: southern Yavdlom X7: (don't have it) X8: starts in Thyatis City X9: starts in Slagovich X10: starts in Akesoli, Darokin X11: (don't have it) X12: starts in Threshold X13: starts in Norrvik, Vestland XSOLO: starts in Specularum, explores the islands between Minrothad and Thanegoith DA1-DA4: time-travel to ancient Blackmoor CM1: Norwold CM2: starts in Norwold CM3: starts in Norwold CM4: (don't have it) CM5: (don't have it) CM6: (don't have it) CM7: Feadiel Clan, Alfheim, explores the Sylvan Lands M1: (don't have it) M2: (don't have it) M3: (don't have it) M4: starts in Lighthall, Norwold, explores another plane M5: starts in Norwold, explores Isle of Dawn and several planes IM1: outer planes; includes Weapon Mastery for '20th century guns' IM2: outer planes; Broken Lands near Corunglain IM3: outer planes > I believe B1-9 changed the locations of some of the modules. Hm.. I haven't seen the combined version. Is anybody willing to compare it with the above list and post? Or perhaps look up the modules I'm missing and place them? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level limits in AD&D I'm sorry, I misunderstood the original subject of discussion. I was referring to level limits for humans (i.e. maximum levels for the game) as opposed to level limits for demi-humans , which are part of the a whole mess of stupid rules related to demi-humans and play balance which I think ought toi have been scrapped long ago. Yes, the B-E-C-M series predated 2nd edition, but you said rules cyclopedia and i misunderstood again. as for 2 1/2 edition, the High Level Campaigns book is designed to lift games above the informal cap of 20th level, which I also think is a bad idea but which i understand appeals to some types of gamers. m@2 On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 Kaviyd@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 96-06-26 15:04:35 EDT, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matthew > Levy) writes: > > << Correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember it there WERE no level > limits at all in 1st edition AD&D; furthermore 2nd edition AD&D came out > before the rules cyclopedia anyway. I think the new rules you mean are > the redone PH and the player's and dm's option books , which constitute a > kind of AD&D 2 and a half, as it were. >> > > Okay, I will correct you. The original D&D and 1st edition AD&D both > had much more stringent level limits than 2nd edition AD&D. Half-Orc > Fighters were limited to 10th level; all other demi-human Fighters were > even more limited -- limits ranged from 9th level for Dwarves with 18+ > strength down to 4th level for Halflings with normal strength. Elf Magic- > Users could not exceed level 11, and Half-Elf Clerics could not exceed > level 5. In the original D&D, the limits were either the same or one level > lower. Does any of this seem like "no level limits at all" to you? > > As for 2nd edition AD&D, it came out before the D&D Rules > Cyclopedia but after the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master sets, > which contained most of the material that would later appear in > the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. Thus, the rules contained in the > D&D Rules Cyclopedia do indeed pre-date the 2nd edition AD&D > rules. > > As for "AD&D 2 1/2", the latest printing of the PHB did not change > any of the rules from the original edition of the 2nd edition PHB, > and none of the Player's Option or DM's Option books tinkered with > the level limits, which were the biggest change between first and > second editions. > ------------------------------ From: "Peter Donald" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 18:52:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics On Wed, 3 Jul 96 14:00:50 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: > Their relationship is *EXTREMELY* obvious. I have both sets of >rules and they are almost identical in abilities. It would be ludicrous >to say that TSR didn't base the Mystic on the Monk. Ludicrous but true (assuming you're referring to the AD&D1 Monk). >A statement was made >to the effect that, in order for the lack of religion in the Mystic class >to be the fault of TSR's moralizing, it would have had to have been linked >with religion and then have that link severed. It was. The Mystic *IS* a >modified form of the Monk class. The Monk class contained religious >conatations, the Mystic class doesn't. The line between "religious" and "philosophical" is pretty damn fine, IMO - is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion (the answer, of course, is "yes", further confused by the fact that there are almost as many flavours of Buddhism as there are of Christianity, some of which resemble each other as much as, say, Calvinism resembles Nestorianism). The A&D Monks were described as "monastic aesthetics" (one of my all-time favourite typos, that), which could be seen as either religious or philosophical, depending on one's personal bent. ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Who to send to Ravenloft? :) who is Sekhaba? On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > I've been thinking about Ravenloft for a little while, and was > > wondering... who do /you/ think is the best candidate to get captured by > > the mists? > > Well, all I know about RL is the book about Lord Soth goign there, which > I hated but my choice would be either Soth or Sekhaba, those great > Nithian evils who are near imoortality.... > > > > Hey, Blitzwing. Tank you-Warpath (heh heh) > > ------------------------------ From: "W.R.Mason III" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:27:03 +0900 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics David Lelend wrote > retire as deities but to PLAY them, along with presenting info and stats > on Demons themselves, with explicit adaptation of historically-known > demons? I don't quite see how your explanation is feasible, much less how > mine is just "wrong." Jody responded: You really dislike people who play AD&D don't you? Even to the point that you assumed since I made a statement about something being derived from AD&D you assumed I was an AD&D player? Not true at all my friend. I have been playing EXCLUSIVELY OD&D in the Mystara setting for 10 years. I just happen to know what the Mystic was based on. I'm not arguing A vs. O. it doesn't matter to me. I like the Mystic without the religious crap, but if it wasn't for TSR moralizing, the the Mystic would still be called "Monk" and would still be affiliated with religious ideas. - ----------- Hi guys, I'm new here, and really got a laugh out of all of this. Here I go, PLEASE don't get into another CORNY RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION! I don't want the e-mail! I live in Japan, and have studied Zen Buddhism and Aikido under one teacher. I can tell you these things: Zen Buddhism -- the most popular of the hard "monk" religions, is "religious" only in the sense that it is a rigorous training of mind and body. There is no lazy "worship X and go to heaven" philosophy here, *SO* it makes perfect sense to me to LEAVE OUT the religious aspect for monks/mystics in general. If any of you actually know --- there is a quote from an old Chinese text that said "If Buddha stands in the way of your enlightenment, then push him out of your way." --- in other words, the main objective for monks is to become LIKE Buddha, not worship him -- therefore they are very different from Clerics, and should not neccessarily have to "choose a god". Excuse me while I gag --- "historically-known demons"????? In WHOSE history might that be? Jerry Falwell's? I guess I've been away from the States so long that I forgot some people actually BELIEVE in demons. It's really a chuckler. Though scary to think how many people are ruled by fear of that which they have never seen or experienced --- oh, I forgot, there are Demons running around all over the States. Funny how you never hear of them here. Must be those darned "unenlightened Japanese" --- yeah, right. I beg of you all -- let's talk about Mystics, but lets NOT drag that ugly creature of close-minded Christianity into this discussion. I HATE getting reams of that stuff from cool sites like this! - Wallace Robinson Mason III mason@ca2.so-net.or.jp p.s. - - If you just HAVE to have a religion involved, why not use a "god" like Lord Ao from Forgotten Realms (a super-god that bestows no powers), or base their tiny "worship" aspect on a figure of someone who ascended to godhood (that would probably be best). Mystic's goal could ultimately be ascention as well - with only a very few succeeding over the ages as demi-gods. There are great rules for immortals and the quest for immortality in the Old D&D and the Rules Encyclopedia -- as well as the Wrath of the Immortals (?) boxed set for old D&D. ------------------------------ From: "W.R.Mason III" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:45:53 +0900 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Level limits in AD&D Hi guys, I 've always been one to go for optional rules where the original rules get out of hand or seem silly. With Demi-humans, I felt it silly to limit them any more than they already are by their choice of classes, so I opted for the rule of doubling experience needed after the "level limits" or allowing Halflings, etc. with exceptional prime requisite scores and Intelligence to hurdle this limit completely. The intelligence idea (over 15) was my own -- for to suggest that demi-humans "can't improve" any further than X - level seemed ridiculous. I also placed level limits on fighters with less than 8 intelligence. I thought it ridiculous to have a total moron be a fighting pro with countless skills - though you may disagree. Levels and level limits have always been an interesting yet hexing part of all of the many incarnations of D&D. I'd like to see more creative limitations of Demi-humans than levels come out of TSR. How would one expect a character like Galadriel from Middle Earth to exist in a world of level limits? Much slower advancement - - in accordance with lifespan seems to make more sense -- but then why level limit Half-Orcs? Are they just stupid? The old D&D bothers me also with its "race classes" (human superiority), but I'll save that one for another day... I've also long felt that it was ridiculous to have Gnomes with an intelligence bonus that doesn't go to use... A "Tinker" class for the Gnomes would be good -- ever hear of one? W. Robinson Mason III mason@ca2.so-net.or.jp ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 16:40:34 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics This debate has gone on long enough. I consider it closed. Let's move on to more applicable topics, shall we? J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: Jason Zavoda Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 22:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Modules Location On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > > > I can't recall where I saw it, but I KNOW I saw a map of Mystara which had > > > > the locations of ALL of the B series modules marked out on it. DOes anyone > > > > know what this map is and where it is from? > > > > That was in the blue-box Expert Set.. I'll dig mine out this afternoon > > > and type out the locations. > (I dug out the modules themselves and checked more than the B series.. > note that a lot of them are set pre-1000AC, if not earlier (ie, X6 or X9) > ) I looked over my copy of the expert rules (dark blue box edition, the first expert set does not have the same maps). and some of the B modules are listed on Map #2 pg 33. I have also added the other D&D modules that I know about and what locations I could find. > AC2 Mini adventures(Village of Luln) AC3 The Kidnapping of Princess Arelina (don't have it ) AC3 The Revenge of the Rusak (no location given) AC7 Mini adv The Spindle (don't have it) AC10 Bestiary of Dragons and Giants(several small adv no specific location) > B1: The Cruth Mts, 50 miles west of Threshold > B2: north-eastern Karameikos, at the start of the river > B3: eastern Karameikos, by the Lake of Lost Dreams > B4: Ylaruam, along the path from Selnica to Ylaruam > B5: the "River Shrill", possibly in Karameikos > B6: Specularum, Karameikos This is the first module that states that it is in a specific location in the known world. > B7: ? Doesn't seem to fit > B8: ? Doesn't seem to fit > B9: retro-placed in Karameikos > B10: (don't have it) Nights Dark Terror In the Wild Lands of Eastern Karameikos (in and between the Black Peak Mountains and the Dymrak Forest > B11: Kings Festivel Stalanford on the Dukes Road near the Wufwolde Hills > B12: starts near Penhaligon, Karameikos > BSOLO: The Ethengar Khanates, near the Streel > M1/MSOLO: the pass between the Five Shires and Darokin > DDA1: Arena of Thyatis Thyatis DDA2 Legions of Thyatis Thyatis DDA3 Eye of Traldar Karameikos, Fort Doom DDA4 The Dymrak Dread Karameikos, Dymrak Forest > X1: south of Minrothad/Ierendi > X2: Glantri, along the main Glantri river, about 15 miles from the Broken > Lands. > X3: Rhoona, Vestland, by the "Norrvik" river, beside the Rockhome border > X4: to the northwest of Glantri > X5: to the northwest of Glantri > X6: southern Yavdlom > X7: War Rafts of Kronn Minrothad, the Sea of Dread > X8: starts in Thyatis City > X9: starts in Slagovich > X10: starts in Akesoli, Darokin > X11: Saga of the Shadowlord North of Glantri and the Heldann Freeholds in the Northern Wildlands > X12: starts in Threshold > X13: starts in Norrvik, Vestland > XSOLO: starts in Specularum, explores the islands between Minrothad and > Thanegoith XS2 Thunderdelve Mountain no specific location XL1 Quest for the Heartstone No specific Location > DA1-DA4: time-travel to ancient Blackmoor > CM1: Norwold > CM2: starts in Norwold > CM3: starts in Norwold > CM4 Earthshaker From ???@??? Sat Jul 06 13:46:52 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA04158; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 23:38:04 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA10926 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:24:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:24:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199607041324.IAA10926@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #147 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ff6591fb3f690a47d8df85fecc94c59d In Norwold near the Wyrmsteeth Range > CM5: Mystery of the Snow Pearls Have it but can't find my magic viewer(or a pirce of red cellophane) > CM6: Where Chaos Reigns Alternate Dimension > CM7: Feadiel Clan, Alfheim, explores the Sylvan Lands CM8 The Endless Stair Glantri,four days ride from Glantri City CM9 Legacy of Blood Republic of Darokin on the border of Alfheim > M1: Into the Maelstrom Norwold,Alphatian Sea > M2: Vengeance of Alphaks Norwold, Isle of Dawn > M3: Twilight Calling Starts in the Broken Lands > M4: starts in Lighthall, Norwold, explores another plane > M5: starts in Norwold, explores Isle of Dawn and several planes > IM1: outer planes; includes Weapon Mastery for '20th century guns' > IM2: outer planes; Broken Lands near Corunglain > IM3: outer planes O1 THe Gem and the Staff No specific location O2 Blade of Vengeance Alfheim, Canolbarth Forest PC1-4 also have some min adv in various locations > > > I believe B1-9 changed the locations of some of the modules. > Hm.. I haven't seen the combined version. Is anybody willing to compare > it with the above list and post? Or perhaps look up the modules I'm > missing and place them? > > -- > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca B1-9 places all the modules within Karameikos, but the are edited. for example the first modules in B1-9 is B9 which had 5 small adv but two are combined, two appear later in B1-9 and one is not included at all. Castle caldwell is listed as five miles west of threshold B1 Lone Tree Hill a days ride east of Luln B2 No specific location, the Keep is not included, this is now just a wilderness encounter B3 no specific location B4 Alasiyan Desert B5 river north of the Barony of Kelvin B6 Specularum B7 Forest off of the Dukes Road B8 Starts in Threshold, B9 five miles west of Threshold Hope this helps, if anyone can add or correct any of the information I hope they will email me or the list if there is interest. Jason Zavoda ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 20:31:27 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Modules Location Jason Zavoda writes: B1-9 places all the modules within Karameikos, but the are edited. for example the first modules in B1-9 is B9 which had 5 small adv but two are combined, two appear later in B1-9 and one is not included at all. Castle caldwell is listed as five miles west of threshold B1 Lone Tree Hill a days ride east of Luln B2 No specific location, the Keep is not included, this is now just a wilderness encounter B3 no specific location B4 Alasiyan Desert B5 river north of the Barony of Kelvin B6 Specularum B7 Forest off of the Dukes Road B8 Starts in Threshold, B9 five miles west of Threshold Hope this helps, if anyone can add or correct any of the information I hope they will email me or the list if there is interest. Jason Zavoda Looks right to me. That's the list I was too lazy to put together myself. Thanks, Jason. J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 14:30:45 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion As I told you in previous mails I'm working with Herve on a PWA-like timeline of the Alfheim Invasion that takes place during WotI. I've wrote down about half of the timeline, i.e. the setup and the casting of the spell. Before starting to write something about the flight of Alfheim elves and the invasion of Shadow Elves, I would like to know your reaction/comments on what we've done till now, so in a separate posting I send you our stuff hoping you enjoy it. BTW: We've added a new twist to the plot in the first part with Atzanteotl meddling with Shadow Elves, anyway nothing inconsistent with TSR published material (I hope). For those of you who are interest the timeline is available also as as a Word 6.0 .doc file. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 14:30:48 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion (long) Spring 1004: Atzanteotl Contacts Rafiel Location: Pandius Description: Atzanteotl meets Rafiel in the Central Dome of Pandius to ask him to take part in the Brotherhood of the Shadow. Rafiel agrees. What this means: Atzanteotl believes Rafiel to be an entropic Immortal, so he asks him to join his side. On the other hand Rafiel learns that the Brotherhood of the Shadow's goal is to help the less powerful side (i.e. his side), so he doesn't refuse Atzanteotl offer. In the years to come Rafiel will play as a double agent for Rad. Summer 1005: Atzanteotl Urges Rafiel to Act Location: Pandius Description: In a new secret meeting in the Central Dome of Pandius Atzanteotl suggests Rafiel to prompt the Shadow Elves to invade Alfheim as his participation to the cause of Entropy. Rafiel agrees and Atzanteotl offers him to provide the Shadow Elves with a new spell able to corrupt the Trees of Life, thus weakening the Alfheim elves. What this means: With Sind seized by the Master and Alfheim controlled by Shadow Elves, Atzanteotl plans of crushing Darokin between the hammer and the anvil, thus giving the Brotherhood of the Shadow the chance of striking against Glantri, the Broken Lands, the Five Shires, Rockhome, the Emirates of Ylaruam, the Ethengarian Khanate, or Karameikos, to help wichever side the Brotherhood is supporting. Moreover the destruction of Alfheim is one of Atzanteotl's goals and Ilsundal one of his most hated enemies. Rafiel is not entropic but sees this as an opportunity to get rid of a dangerous neighbor for Glantri (Alfheim is led by the Ring of Fire) and to give his followers what he long promised them; however, he prefers not to involve his Shamans in this scheme, so he willingly accepts Atzanteotl's spell. 1005, Felmont: Xatapechtli Dreams Location: City of the Stars, Shadow Elves Territories Description: Xatapechtli, the head of the second Shadow, dreams of an ancient book about Trees of Life that is kept somewhere in Alfheim. In the dream an Azcan voice whispers him that he must find that book if he wants to take his revenge on the Alfheim elves. What this means: Actually that dream is induced in Xatapechtli's mind by Atzanteotl, that has found a way to corrupt the Canolbarth forest and the Trees of Life. In the following months Serpent Eyes will look all over Alfheim for that ancient and invaluable book. 1005, Fyrmont 12: Theft in Feador Location: Feador, Alfheim Description: A group of Shadow Elves spies (Serpents) steal from Jorodrin Feadiel (Treekeeper of Clan Feadiel) a book detailing what Ilsundal went through to create the Trees of Life. What this means: Serpents found evidence of the book's current location searching through the Mealidil Library Tree and quickly managed to steal it. Now Kanafasti can learn vital knowledge about Trees of Life. What the PCs can do: If the PCs are Shadow Elves they may take part in the robbery or be part of the plot in some other way (looking for information, putting up diversions...). If the PCs are from Alfheim they may try to prevent the theft and perhaps uncover the plot. 1005, Fyrmont 27: Atzanteotl visits Kanafasti Location: City of the Stars, Shadow Elves Territories Description: Atzanteotl visits Kanafasti in incorporeal form and provides him with the knowledge needed to research a new spell that will eventually kill the Trees of Life and weaken the Canolbarth forest, thus allowing Shadow Elves to easily drive Alfheim Elves out of it. What this means: Rafiel allowed Atzanteotl to provide Shadow Elves wizards with a spell that will help them invade Alfheim. Unfortunately, busy as he is in his studies with Rad, he didn't realize that Atzanteotl's magic will forever corrupt the forest, entropy being what it is. What the PCs can do: The team of Shadow Elves wizards that is going to research that spell will surely need many components and they could hire the PCs to find them. 1006, Flaurmont 12: Research of New Spell Completed Location: City of the Stars, Shadow Elves' Territories Description: The team of experienced Shadow Elves wizards led by Kanafasti successfully completes the research of a new spell that will allow Shadow Elves to kill the Trees of Life. What this means: Actually the spell is more powerful than what everybody (but Atzanteotl) think because it will corrupt not only the Trees of Life but the whole forest.. What the PCs can do: Experienced Shadow Elves wizards may take part in the research of the spell. 1006, Ambyrmont 17: King Telemon Prompt Kanafasti to Act Location: City of the Stars, Shadow Elves' Territories Description: In a secret meeting in the King's Palace between Telemon, Kanafasti, Xatapechtli and General Garafaele, the King urges the Royal Wizard to act now and orders the Radiant General to start gathering a wartime army. What this means: Taking advantage of the confusion created by the meteor that striked in northern Darokin this summer, Telemon urges Kanafasti to start casting the spell. What the PCs can do: Shadow Elves PCs may either help Kanafasti if they're experienced wizards or be drafted in the army according to their rank. 1006, Ambyrmont 24: Shadow Elves Wizards Start Working Location: Caves just beneath Alfheim Description: The most powerful mages among the Shadow Elves lead by Kanafasti gather in tunnels running under the Canolbarth Forest and start casting the spell that Atzanteotl gave them. What this means: Tunnel Shapers worked hard in the last few months to build a big network of tunnels running all under Alfheim. This is the first step of the invasion, it will take at least a month for the spell to have appreciable effects and much more to kill the Trees of Life. What the PCs can do: High level Shadow Elves wizards PCs can take part in the casting, lower level or non-wizard PCs may be needed to scout the tunnels and defend the mages from attacks by wandering monsters and Alfheim adventurers that might stumble upon those tunnels by chance. 1006, Sviftmont 4: Tree of Life Gives Ill Omen Location: Ainsun, Alfheim Description: As the forest begins to darken, the High Treekeper of Clan Grunalf contacts his Tree of Life by casting ESP and the Tree tells him that it senses a great catastrophe coming. Soon the bad news spreads across the clan and to the other clanholds. Grunalf sages, the most learned about forestry and woodlore among the elves, gather in Ainsun to study the matter. What this means: The darkening of the forest is the first effect of the Shadow Elves' magic, more mutations will follow in the next weeks. 1006, Sviftmont 28: The Sick Forest Location: Canolbarth Forest, Alfheim Description: Three weeks have passed since Clan Grunalf gave alarm and the forest is even darker and more twisted. Trees stop growing new leaves and plants stop making flowers, herbivores strive to find eating. The elves are at loss to explain this strange disease, other than to that something in the fallout from the ash raised by the meteor that slammed in northern Darokin last summer is causing it. Trees of Life continue to make leaves, but feel a deep pain coming from the very earth trough their roots, while anxious Treekeepers search ways to reverse the process. What this means: Actually the disease is caused not by the ash, but by the powerful Shadow Elves magic that is starting to take effect. 1006, Kaldmont 21: Death near Shieldtree Location: Shieldtree, Alfheim Description: Five elves are found dead and ten others seriously sick after drinking water from a nearby spring. Careful investigations reveals the water has been poisoned. What this means: This is another consequence of the spell. By now the trees have stopped growing and leaves started falling. Small plants and many herbivores have already died. Carnivores have trouble to find game and many springs become poisonous. What the PCs can do: If they're in Shieldtree they can be hired to investigate on this strange death. 1006, Kaldmont 28: Treekeepers meet in Feador Location: Feador, Alfheim Description: Increasingly alarmed by their Trees of Life that stopped growing leaves and unable to stop the process, Treekeepers from all the seven clans meet today in Feador trying to discuss on the matter. Treekepers from clan Feadiel and Grunalf agree on the need of relocating their communities somewhere else to prevent the Trees of Life from dying, those from clan Long Runner and Mealidil bitterly disagree on leaving Alfheim, though not even in the Annals of Mealiden is mentioned something similar to the current situation. What this means: Treekepers are strongly alarmed by the withering of their Trees of Life and completely unable to reverse the process, so they start thinking of leaving Alfheim for a land not hit by the fallout of the ash raised by the meteor. 1007, Nuwmont 13: Lynnwyll Chossum Falls Ill Location: Desnae, Alfheim Description: Clanmaster Lynnwyll Chossum suddenly faints while working; he feels very weak and his brought home by his friends. Even the High Treekeper is much worried about his health. What this means: This is not a natural illness, actually Carlisan, Counselor to Lynnwyll and Shadow Elf, poisoned his Clanmaster to take his place. 1007, Nuwmont 15: Lynnwyll Dies, Carlisan Appointed Clanmaster Location: Desnae, Alfheim Description: After a short death struggle Lynnwyll dies, but before he picks Carlisan to replace him. What this means: This is a major strike for Shadow Elves, now in full control of one of the leading clans. 1007, Thaumont 15: Council Meets in Elleromyr Location: Elleromyr, Alfheim Description: The Council of the Clans meets today in Elleromyr to discuss the proposal of clan Feadiel and clan Grunalf of leaving Alfheim. Only three clans (Long Runner, Mealidil and Red Arrow) vote against, so the measure passes. King Doriath charges his ambassadors in Glantri, Karameikos, Thyatis and Wendar to ask the local rulers and elvish clans for hospitality. What this means: The once mighty trees of Alfheim are now twisted and dying, other plants are already dead and the animal population has drastically decreased. More and more among elves and fairies think that leaving is the best solution, but some still refuse to leave. Why leave: clans Feadiel and Grunalf are concerned about the Trees of Life; clan Chossum is now controlled by Shadow Elves and eager to sell cart, horses and whatever is needed for such a journey; clan Erendyl thinks this is the best thing for Alfheim. Why stay: clan Mealidil doesn't want to leave the country founded by Mealiden and thinks that an answer for the problem can be found looking in the books, it's just a matter of time; clan Long Runner mistrusts all non-elves, blames humans for this strange disease, so it doesn't want to have any contact with the outside world; clan Red Arrow is mostly concerned about the danger of such a trip, because of what's going on in Glantri, Darokin and Ethengar. What the PC's can do: Well known PCs adventurers from Alfheim may be sent to Glantri, Karameikos, Thyatis or Wendar as couriers by King Doriath. Clan Red Arrow may also need experienced adventurers to scout possible flight ways across the Broken Lands, the Orcland and the Cruth Mountains. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #147 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 5 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 148 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:00:15 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion > As I told you in previous mails I'm working with Herve on a PWA-like > timeline of the Alfheim Invasion that takes place during WotI. > I've wrote down about half of the timeline, i.e. the setup and the casting > of the spell. Before starting to write something about the flight of Alfheim > elves and the invasion of Shadow Elves, I would like to know your > reaction/comments on what we've done till now, so in a separate posting I > send you our stuff hoping you enjoy it. > > BTW: We've added a new twist to the plot in the first part with Atzanteotl > meddling with Shadow Elves, anyway nothing inconsistent with TSR published > material (I hope). > > For those of you who are interest the timeline is available also as as a > Word 6.0 .doc file. > > ************** > Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it > DM in City Of The Stars > aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton > aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr > Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 Good job. I am eager to see the rest. I think we should include a section of timelines like yours in the net.book about Mystara. I would start writing something, but I have only one month to finish my thesis, so it will have to wait. About the spell, have you worked the details? Is it a true dweomer, like those someone (I forgot who, sorry) posted for von Drachenfels? >From your timeline, I got the impression that it involved several mages casting it, maybe during a week or two, from several different points under Alfheim. I would use it this way. The spell must affect an artifact, something mortals didn't know to be possible, except by the way legends tell the artifact can be destroyed. And it should work in a huge area. That's why I believe it is a true dweomer requiring great efforts to cast. And the glantrians would be delighted to discover that a number of powerful wizards have the power to work against immortal magic. They might consider preparing themselves for a war against the immortal themselves, not in the near future, maybe in one or two centuries. But when the truth that the shadow elves' magic could do that, they would certainly send agents to learn from them and propose an alliance (they will need every help they can get if they want to save Canolbarth from total destruction when they realize the damage they have done). And a new secret society will rise in Glantri, one devoted to study the magics capable of confronting the immortals. Of course, it would be extremely scretive and, as I see it, doomed to failure, but who knows? Anyway, they will cause lots of problems and adventures. Another doubt, how long do you believe it will take for the Trees of Life to die? It will take several years, maybe decades, since the elves haven't moved to conquer Alfheim back untill 1014 AC, something they would try desperately if the Trees were to die soon. Ilsundal certainly has a good guess about how long they will last and is preparing a war, certainly moving trying to move Karameikos against the Shadow Elves. Kagyar (was this the name of the dwarven god?) could ally with him, the dwarves now (1014) hate the Shadow Elves more than they did their previous neighbors, specially after they had to escape from that humanoid city floating in the lava under the Broken Lands. So, guess what, another world war. The Brotherhood of Shadow was not dissolved and is working hard to make it happen, and this time Ilsundal will be the one to start it. The Shadow Elves would have to accept Glantri support (remember the above alliance), and that could lead Ylaruam into it, against those mages, as well as the ethengarians. Thyatis would see it as the perfect oportunity to rebuild its empire, while its competitors fight. Wendar would certainly side with Alfheim, as well as the Erewan elves (Glantri is about to get into a civil war). Just trow the Master siding with whoever is losing or attacking Darokin once more when it is weakened by all the armies that will be crossing its borders, and we will have a war longer than the one in WotI. The Shadow Elves alliance would be in serious problems against so many enemies, and Atzanteotl could use this fact to force the acceeptance of his schatenalffen elves in shadow elf society, corrupting it. Maybe he knew Rafiel's real positin all the time and was working exactly with this in mind. He is a subtle ploter, right? I should be working on it in August. What do you all think? Does anybody want to help? Andre Martins ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:58:17 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life > Codex of the Immortals says that the Tree of Life is a living artifact that > Ilsundal created on his road to Immortality; but: 1) Ilsundal undertook the > Path of the Paragon that requires him to quest for a lesser artifact of the > sphere of Energy and to create an entirely new magical item, but not to > create an artifact, 2) if it was really an artifact shouldn't it have > Handicaps & Penalties ? The magical item a paragon must create must be one unique, powerful and not created before. The candidate is almost an immortal when he/she creates it. So, IMO, an artifact is exactly what the path of the paragon requires. Even if it is not, an artifact would certainly fulfill its requirements. But I do feel that the Handicaps & Penalties problem should be addresed. The first obvious one is that someone who uses a Tree of Life feel compelled to protect the forest and the elves living there, becoming a fanatic follower of Ilsundal's teachings. It could also leave the Treekeepers weaker when the perform their rituals and cerimonies, a temporary weakness. I don't have the Alfheim gazeteer, so somebody else will have to check it to see if there is any mention to a fact like that in it. Anyway, it wouldn's be a handicap difficult to impose. Andre Martins ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > Excuse me. Please don't get carried away. I'm not telling anyone > what to do or whose right or wrong. If you really want to yell and scream > try using an advocacy newsgroup instead of a list, I don't want a flame > war with you. Just try and listen to what I'm saying before responding, ok? Yell and scream? I'm confused. I don't recall doing either, nor do I remember you doing so. Perhaps you thought my "Excuse me?" was an "ExCUSE me?!?!?!?!?!?!"? In any case, I'm not advocating anything in particular nor am I yelling or screaming, so I don't see where I've been carried nor why I should go elsewhere. Perhaps we both need to try and listen before responding? Now, I did find your statement saying something like 'now that's where your wrong' to be a bit authoritarian and presumptuous, and my response was intended to show that I was rather surprised to see such a self-assured rejection of a view other than yours, but I didn't intend to 'ignite' anything. My apologies. > Their relationship is *EXTREMELY* obvious. I have both sets of > rules and they are almost identical in abilities. It would be ludicrous > to say that TSR didn't base the Mystic on the Monk. A statement was made > to the effect that, in order for the lack of religion in the Mystic class > to be the fault of TSR's moralizing, it would have had to have been linked > with religion and then have that link severed. It was. The Mystic *IS* a > modified form of the Monk class. The Monk class contained religious > conatations, the Mystic class doesn't. The religious link was severed when > the Monk was adapted to the Mystic. The association is indeed obvious, but the true relationship is not. I honestly think it's inappropriate to be so assured of the reasons for the differences between mystics and monks. Furthermore, I still feel that a lot of the connotations you're reading are a matter of your interpretation. Others have already commented on the various ways people can regard the spiritual/religious/philosophical aspects. > The same Immortals set that stressed at every possible curve that > Immortals were not "Gods" but extremely powerful beings? TSR went to great > lengths to REMOVE any religious ideas from Immortals and Clerics, who > weren't religious, they just followed their Immortal's philosophy. Are you > saying that TSR's moralizing doesn't exist? They couldn't just remove the > Cleric, as it is ( and always has been ) an integral part of the game, so > instead of removing it, they tried to remove references to "religious" > things from the Cleric class by renaming them something else. In the case > of the Monk, which never was a very important class, it was quite easy for > them to rename the whole class and remove all religious meaning from it. I think this is a reasonable way to cast it, now that you elaborate it, but just become is makes sense doesn't mean that's the reason behind everything. I still think demons pose a problem for your interpretation. Incidentally, I notice there has been a shift from talk about Immortal-relatedness to religiousness. I'm not blaming it on you because I sort of went with the flow and didn't realize it too, but my original comment was that there is nothing in the rules that indicate that mystics are related to the Immortals in any way. I guess that can be a somewhat different issue than religiousness. > You really dislike people who play AD&D don't you? Even to the > point that you assumed since I made a statement about something being > derived from AD&D you assumed I was an AD&D player? Not true at all my > friend. I have been playing EXCLUSIVELY OD&D in the Mystara setting for 10 > years. I just happen to know what the Mystic was based on. I'm not arguing > A vs. O. it doesn't matter to me. I like the Mystic without the religious > crap, but if it wasn't for TSR moralizing, the the Mystic would still be > called "Monk" and would still be affiliated with religious ideas. What gives you the idea that I dislike people who play AD&D? How do you know whether or not I play AD&D? Where did I make the assumption that you play AD&D? Who's getting carried away and not listening before responding? My statement was a conditional one: IF you consider the mystic to be simply a religiously-watered-down version of the monk THEN remember that some of us are playing OD&D (so that the relationship, if any, to the AD&D monk is irrelevant, as that's not part of the OD&D rules or ambience). If you don't think of the mystics as dumbed-down AD&D monks, then the rest of the sentence does not apply to you. What system you use is not at issue for me, so long as you don't try to discuss one solely in terms of the other. I still don't understand where you're coming from with this self-assured talk of "I just happen to know," but the verity of different interpretations isn't what's important. You obviously aren't stuck with one since, as you say yourself, you prefer monks without the religious bias, so I don't have any further reasons to stay on my soap box. (I can hear the sighs of relief from the other listers already :)). - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:46:11 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB69C1.A98CC440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > Actually, the Rules Cyclopedia states, "Mystics are monastic humans..." > The word monastic is defined as, "Pertaining to monks or to a monastery." > Monks are defined as, "A member of a religious community..." And a > monastery is defined as, "A group of buildings housing an order of monks." > All definitions are taken from "The New Lexicon Websters Dictionary of the > English Language." To me this impied directly that mystics are members > of a religious community. To each his or her own, but that looks like a rather literal and logistic chain of connections. I don't think mystic=monk, nor that monastic HAS to mean Immortal-worshipping. The line between religion and philosophy is as thick or thin as you want it to be (some consider Buddhisma religion, others, a philosophy) and I just think that the lack of reference to Immortals and religion in the priestly sense suggests more of a philosophical spirituality. By the same token, I could look up cleric in the dictionary and tell you that those are members of a class of pencil-pushers and other office-workers (characters receive Literacy as a free skill and refuse to adventure before 9:00am, after 5:00pm, or on weekends :) ). Of course I'm too lazy to go find a dictionary right now and give something official and verbatim. :) Apparently you are too lazy. In the same dictionary I quoted from above, here is the definition of cleric, "A clergyman." I am not the one who equated mystic with monk. The Rules Cyclopedia clearly states that mystics are MONASTICS. Monastics are clearly defined as, "pertaining to monks or monasteries." The dictionary is what is equating mystics with monks (through TSR). As for creating a literal and logistic argument (by which I assume you mean logical rather than something to do with supplies and services), I will treat that as a compliment. There is nothing wrong with being logical and precise. I find this prevents people from misunderstanding me. In short, it allows me to communicate my views. People can, of course, discard the dictionary definitions and logical implications, but then there is no basis for communication. George - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB69C1.A98CC440 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiUUAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAFgAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gTXlzdGljcwCW BwEFgAMADgAAAMwHBwAEAA8ALgALAAQAKgEBIIADAA4AAADMBwcABAAPACgAIQAEADoBAQmAAQAh AAAAOTE5N0RDMUVBRkQ1Q0YxMTlCRUM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAAJwcBA5AGAOgHAAAQAAAACwAjAAAA AAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAAPBv1elpuwEeAHAAAQAAABYAAABSRTogW015 c3RhcmFdIE15c3RpY3MAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABu2np1W8e3JeS1a8Rz5vsREVTVAAAAAADAAYQ z7tTRQMABxAFBwAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASEVMTE8sT05NT04sMUpVTDE5OTYsV0lORE9XUzk1SU5O T1ZBTUVESUFVU0VSV1JPVEU6QUNUVUFMTFksVEhFUlVMRVNDWUNMT1BFRElBU1RBVEVTLCJNWVNU SUNTQVJFTU9OQQAAAAACAQkQAQAAAKEGAACdBgAAKQsAAExaRnWQupck/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQ AvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzN3AuQHEwKAfQqACM8J2TvxFg8y NTUCgAqBDbELYOBuZzEwMxRQCwoUUYUL8mMAQCBIZWwVoAYsCoUKi2xpMTgwwQLRaS0xNDQN8AzQ Vx0zGdwTUG8T0GMFQE8lA6BNAiAsIBrQSnWhAyAxOTk2H7BXC4AIZG93BCA5NSBJ4E5OT1ZBBdAJ From ???@??? Sat Jul 06 13:47:02 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24500; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:20:36 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA15771 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 00:47:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 00:47:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199607050547.AAA15771@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #148 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: f426d55797048bd8447f172785b6b3e2 gAcwrCBVEbAFwHce4jobzdwzNh3fHuUKhT4UsB8gEnUHQGx5H7B0aGVHB/AgAAeRQ3ljFaBwKyHD E8BhE9BzH7AiTXkTsWljBCAKwCagBGBuImEogiBodQOBcy5VKhAiJVdUJpF3BbBk+ykYBAAgDbEL gAmAKNAoIl5QBJABkAuAC4BnJnBv/SkSawQgBbEtsSHwKSQEkP55KjkfgS4RKOIsOyGQB4BzBtAi MW9mLpEWEByQZ45pCGAEIAWgbW11AwD2dC9AKiEgFLAgsCjQJVdfLscr/yGQCcAIYHAx8mLedQMQ IdAZEAQgaDKxLXLfA5ErMTHULeMqOUEbECwkXzNQMqAGMSjiAZBrCfAgjwNSKEAq4gfCTGV4KKCz AiAggGViLwIEIEQooL86kgrANUAyASaBJVdFGRA5HJBzaDxgGQEmEGdlbTOiVC3BOxFoLAEHcHD/ CJArUCHQFhAfICZAJnEn8PcpECh6MaNzJVcyDzMWG137AZFAUmUA0D+AQNIFsSaQfTHhdx+hNxAF QEITFaBv/y4RHJA7UERCJ/BH0hyQLxH/B0A4IStQCoUVoDKQKWMRcX8LgEQSPLEscD2jKgAzwElb LCACICdIgguAa0JVPXst4h+wbi5CQiIKhSknSN5BBfAtskcQA6BJMxAVsf0HQC0rIT9wBSBBMBkQ TTHfKuIckCxwNwARwHcJ4URmWwOgSrlwQNAVoHMnYGj3NUMpUECyY04gTyNMIVYB/nkIYCJQAHAF QDNQLaIxwPwgKFVwQJE8sQCQOIIKhfBCdWRkQNEAwFPXH7DfHvBH0SghIfBVKClKo01g/moywE3G QhMmggtgVmEKhdtEIRYQZgSQCfBjOxEtwP9RZijBM/FT50whJoITUAiQHxPAQeERsACAJqBzdWf/ QAATwAQgT6co8UQjVScooH1KgXNBMAUQJgIzUjPAQvtB8mJxYUCSSRAJ8B+wTWDvBaAgACtQSPIg NrEKhSdA/wZxK+FhRCHQPadKshPQOgH/V0JddVVgSYFC+EQUJ0ApUJ9jB0QhJ3BfUAMQLXAywP9b IkqjWwNEER0AX2BR4jtQPT1RKBFyANA9M0GhZWnqdiagTEpDYzVACoVWAe8h8ANQCeAnwGsDEEqU XvHzMsBfc2FkcVACMAhwU0LzAhAo8Tk6HNBmgFthAYD1IjE1dYFwdcEFsV5WA6CrU5E7UWQEIDpc QClNMc5PTGIIcGJhSSc7wC2w2y3AC2B6QfEtwGctwCxR5yyRaXoFEGdoJTdPEAfg/0qyMpBxUVhy TeItkG9TBzHzSqNxUHJiJ/AHcE0weDD/CocZ6hu8Gd8UsFJQKOECMP9B4VdCOvN5lU0yYURmc2mJ +U1gcXUe8StQA1JyFgbg/3FQH7BH0SagLAFpQzpHTEP3aLMxQ2iiZwbAAHAqN4DF/01gZoBPAV2k AiArATewRwD/hiAn8StRKHMiUDNQP4At4v9SpSbOaDgKwGICJ+NCDwXQhE9OULBUSUNTTTH/H4Ep UyjEkEWAxSw7J3AtL/8uMi7GYcFAI2lcBACAxYyg/0IxLAGM4y1yQmaN13AhJoBnNpF7sCrQU1J4 YBtcQf8EIHUhMuAWEJokIfBKOktnzwrAP9AHgFehKGI1QIyg/yigP4CLkQQQoBFXM0+mUSL/S2Jk 0knFkTEDoH04LbEgwH+NxGKQUlAckAeRSrIiIXZ5b4FzKRtGTWAD8DoBdP+d8pEkcoMy8aVhoCJS pIfU/4vhfYMiYaoyjeIxwC1yoqX/chYz8RNQBZAEAEAQTUJ6c+9Aw6yRdIKt0WUnYCbgO4T+bQQA MzAEgSfRILCaQ0AQ/4smo8E3sAAgH7BX0SYhINL/ZpMy5mTQE9BCUX6QCJAg4P9NMS0ArqNk0FrS eLYbRiHQ/wTwCxFpPjo7nyVk0kERHJD/swE6okhGO2FJ4j6GqbM3AH8pUCwBnaOypzqhRa9GsUdf rpCKMD6GgMUVMQC/gAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwwDYzDOlpuwFAAAgwwDYzDOlpuwEe AD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAGGj - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB69C1.A98CC440-- ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, W.R.Mason III wrote: > David Lelend wrote This is by no means your fault, but just for the record, my last name is Leland. The stupid internet provider I have until a week from now spelled it wrong in my real name field, and the system won't let me change it myself. *sigh* > Hi guys, I'm new here, and really got a laugh out of all of this. > Here I go, PLEASE don't get into another CORNY RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION! > I don't want the e-mail! I'm glad we amuse you. And I promise not to get into a corny religious discussion (something I don't think we've done yet) if you don---whoops! Looks like it's too late... >>> I live in Japan, and have studied Zen Buddhism and Aikido under one teacher. I can tell you these things: Zen Buddhism -- the most popular of the hard "monk" religions, is "religious" only in the sense that it is a rigorous training of mind and body. There is no lazy "worship X and go to heaven" philosophy here, *SO* it makes perfect sense to me to LEAVE OUT the religious aspect for monks/mystics in general. If any of you actually know --- there is a quote from an old Chinese text that said "If Buddha stands in the way of your enlightenment, then push him out of your way." --- in other words, the main objective for monks. His to become LIKE Buddha, not worship him -- therefore they are very different from Clerics, and should not neccessarily have to "choose a god". >>> Okay, to be honest I don't find that stuff corny, but the irony does amuse me. >>> Excuse me while I gag --- "historically-known demons"????? In WHOSE history might that be? Jerry Falwell's? I guess I've been away from the States so long that I forgot some people actually BELIEVE in demons. It's really a chuckler. Though scary to think how many people are ruled by fear of that which they have never seen or experienced --- oh, I forgot, there are Demons running around all over the States. Funny how you never hear of them here. Must be those darned "unenlightened Japanese" --- yeah, right. I beg of you all -- let's talk about Mystics, but lets NOT drag that ugly creature of close-minded Christianity into this discussion. I HATE getting reams of that stuff from cool sites like this! >>> Welcome to the Mystara list. I have to say that I found your post to be the most obnoxious, self-rightous, immature, and denigrating post I have ever read here. First, I apologize for my poor use of language is choosing to say "historically-known demons." I really never ever thought anyone here would think I meant 'historically verified as existing in the real world.' I meant that these are demons not made up by TSR but referred to historically and considered by some people, mostly in the past but yes some now too, as actual beings. These demons are a part of many cultural histories, although I don't mean to say they exist outside of the minds of the culture's peoples. Your blatant mockery and disrespect for people from the States stands in ironic contrast to your apparent upset that I call "historically-known" demons that don't appear (PLEASE, PLEASE do not take "appear" literally, or we'll have one HELL of a mess on our hands--oh, and don't take "HELL" literally either) in your culture. I don't happen to believe in demons, or any other supernatural or divine forces for that matter, but that's besides the point. People deserve respect for their beliefs, but it would seem that such respect is beyond your capacity. In any case, I hate to break it to you, but history does not necessitate universality. Those demons are a part of history, and don't have to be a part of every culture to do so. Otherwise should I say that no one should play RPGs in Asian settings since your ancient culture isn't directly a part of my history? One of the things I like quite a bit about Mystara is the chaotic mix of cultures. Are you telling me I can't import real-world cultural elements into my game or can't discuss them here unless they are elements shared by the whole world? If so, what are you doing on the Mystara list in the first place, out of curiosity? I have never considered Japanese people as a group to be unenlightened, but you as an individual have, I think, a far ways to go. How dare you complain about this imagined slight against your culture, and then proceed to laugh at, mock, belittle, and call "close-minded" that of others. I, too, find it irritating when fundamentalists bent on telling me how to live and act come barging into inappropriate forums, but that has not happened here. And as far as those demons are concerned, I rather like the occasional ugly creature in my Mystara campaign. :) >>> p.s. - - If you just HAVE to have a religion involved, why not use a "god" like Lord Ao from Forgotten Realms (a super-god that bestows no powers), >>> Because it's not part of Mystara? (That's just my reason. Nothing against importing deities. In fact, I thought that was your gripe.) >>> or base their tiny "worship" aspect on a figure of someone who ascended to godhood (that would probably be best). Mystic's goal could ultimately be ascention as well - with only a very few succeeding over the ages as demi-gods. There are great rules for immortals and the quest for immortality in the Old D&D and the Rules Encyclopedia -- as well as the Wrath of the Immortals (?) boxed set for old D&D. >>> Certainly possibilities. I prefer non-worshipping mystics myself, but have no reason against it. As far as ascension is considered, that is indeed covered in the OD&D rules, especially the Cyclopedia where mystics were considered as candidates for Immortality while in the Master's set they weren't directly dealt with. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 00:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrians and Immortals Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > Artifacts are magical items, to be studied and used as the owner > wishes. Remember that the "inner circle" at the School of Magic > studies and makes use of the Radiance, which is the magical > energy that comes from an artifact known as the Nucleus of the > Spheres. > But most Glantrian wizard don't know that the Radiance come from an artifact. Also, even if they do they would think it is created by Rad, their own immortal. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 00:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics W.R.Mason III pontificated: > > an old Chinese text that said "If Buddha stands in the way of your enlightenment, > then push him out of your way." --- in other words, the main objective for monks > is to become LIKE Buddha, not worship him -- therefore they are very different > from Clerics, and should not neccessarily have to "choose a god". Do you by any chance know the original phrase in Chinese? I'm not saying you are wrong, but many times when people quoting Chinese phrases, I could not figure out what they are, and it really annoys me. Another phrase that I never figured out is "may you live in a intereasting time." > over the States. Funny how you never hear of them here. Must be those darned > "unenlightened Japanese" --- yeah, right. There are no terms in Japanese that translates to "Red haired ghost," "Western sea ghost," etc? I find that highly unlikely. They are probably not used much anymore, but I'm pretty sure there are some. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 00:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S pontificated: > > > Codex of the Immortals says that the Tree of Life is a living artifact that > > Ilsundal created on his road to Immortality; but: 1) Ilsundal undertook the > > Path of the Paragon that requires him to quest for a lesser artifact of the > > sphere of Energy and to create an entirely new magical item, but not to > > create an artifact, 2) if it was really an artifact shouldn't it have > > Handicaps & Penalties ? > > The magical item a paragon must create must be one unique, powerful > and not created before. The candidate is almost an immortal when > he/she creates it. So, IMO, an artifact is exactly what the path of > the paragon requires. Even if it is not, an artifact would certainly > fulfill its requirements. But I do feel that the Handicaps & Penalties > problem should be addresed. The first obvious one is that someone who > uses a Tree of Life feel compelled to protect the forest and the elves > living there, becoming a fanatic follower of Ilsundal's teachings. It > could also leave the Treekeepers weaker when the perform their rituals > and cerimonies, a temporary weakness. I don't have the Alfheim > gazeteer, so somebody else will have to check it to see if there is > any mention to a fact like that in it. Anyway, it wouldn's be a > handicap difficult to impose. > Some other possible handicaps. Its power decreases with each use, and requires time to recharge. Only an elf can use it. Require constant care from the Treekeeper or it will start to lose power and/or die. All those was stated or could be inferred from the description of the ToL, so it already have a bunch of handicaps. Oh another one, it can not be moved very easily. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 22:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages To answer your question, it depends on how "authentic" you want to get ... Ochalea's culture is roughly based on China, and the Divinarchy of Yavdlom is obviously intended to be West African-flavored. In my current campaign I have expanded on this quite a bit: Certain unsavory merchant-types from the KW (Thyatin, Hattian, Minrothaddan, Ierendi, Darokinian) have begun both buying and kidnapping slaves from Yavdlom to be sold to work gangs in the Thyatin colonies and elsewhere. The divinarchs of Yavdlom have cooperated in this practice to some extent, selling captive criminals as well as other social renegades into slavery to the "easterners" just as their real-world inspirations, the Ibo oracles of Nigeria, sold slaves to the Europeans between the 16th and 19th centuries. Each of the Known World naval powers has its deals with particular powerful families, divinarchs, and Swetanga, and they have cut up Yavdlom between them into spheres of influence. My PC's are in the midst of a brewing minor war between Thyatis and Ierendi for control of the slave trade, and the time seems ripe for Yavdlom to unify under a strong leader and rise up to overthrow the white oppressors ... My campaign is fairly non-standard in its politics (this is all in a post- X10 world where Hosadus controls Darokin) but this can serve as a good example, I hope, for how the real world can give inspiration for gaming events. Also how DM's can overcome the bland and euphemistic political correctness of TSR's supplements, where PC's tend to be ridiculously innocent and nice even as they engage in bloodbaths of conquest and other imperialistic behaviors. m@2 On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > Thank you for the vast reply on Mystics. I have another > > question.... I have the 2nd ed. guide, but it doesn't tell me how to > > make an oriental mage. Please help me out here! > > I assume by oriental mage, you mean 'Wu Jen' from Oriental Adventures > (1st ed), or the Complete Wizard's Handbook (2nd ed) > > That reminds me.. I know that European and Middle East civilizations are > fairly well represented in Mystara, as are certain Native (australian, > american, and other) ones.. but the only Oriental one I know of is the > Rakasta (feline humanoids) in Bellayne and on Patera. > Does anybody know of an Oriental (or African, for that matter) culture on > Mystara? > > -- > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca > > ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #148 ***************************** From ???@??? Sat Jul 06 13:47:11 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA05005; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 01:17:57 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA17847 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:54:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:54:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199607051454.JAA17847@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #149 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 0184c8188bdaf40ccbc8c5a4e536db00 mystara-digest Friday, 5 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 149 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew Levy Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 21:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life while we're on the subject of the nature of Belcadiz elves, what about the distinctly likely possibility that they are actually expatriates from the Savage Baronies? This does not appear in any official TSR source but the Glantri gazeteer does say they come from a faraway land and the Espan speaking nations of the Red Steel set would be culturally and linguistically consistent. Perhaps the Clan Alhambra were a noble family who managed to escape the red curse by moving to Glantri? This could potentially serve up adventure hooks galore. m@2 On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > > > -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > > > Date: Saturday, 29-Jun-96 07:02 PM > > > > From: Kaviyd@aol.com \ America On-Line: (Kaviyd) > > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life > > > > In a message dated 96-06-29 10:36:28 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) > > writes: > > > > > A more likely location for the last Tree of Life might be among the > Belcadiz > > elves of Glantri. > > > > Finally, in regard to the Trees of Life left behind in Alfheim/Aengmor: > that > > would be the second time that a large group of Elves abandoned their Trees > of > > Life in enemy territory, as the _Tree of Life_ describes an earlier such > > incident. My guess is that the Trees of Life were immune to the warping > effect > > created by the magic of the Shadow Elves and were somehow able to conceal > > themselves from detection. My guess is that the new Trees of Life owned > by the > > Alfheim refugees will be okay until the Shadow Elves find the Trees of > Life in > > Alfheim -- then we have the makings of another adventure similar to the > _Tree > > of Life_ module. > > > > -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- > > Hi all, > I hope my ignorance doesn't waste too much time, but I haven't read up on > the whole Tree of Life thing. My question is, ***Belcadiz elves have a Tree > of Life?*** I like the Belcadiz and use them in my campaign, but I never > considered this kind of 'tie' to nature for them. And I mean 'tie.' I > picture a sort of 'passion for life and sensation' as being typical, but > that's about as close as I would've gone. Is this contention that Belcadiz > elves must have a Tree of Life based on a specific reference, or something > more general in scope (ie, "elves have a Tree of Life" could be subject to > interpretation when taken out of context, and might only apply to the > particular elves being discussed)? > Thanks, > Shelby > ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 22:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics This whole discussion on the nature of mystics/monks seems to me to be getting a bit silly. Whether or not the motivation for mystics being nonreligious was TSR's newfound moralmajoritarianism, it seems that everyone on this list is pretty much agreed that omitting religion as a form of self-censorship is pretty lame. Also, it seems to me that the problem is not the specific differentiation of mystics from clerics by definition but rather the lack of any clear function for mystics at all. As described in the original Master rules the mystic seems like a bit of an afterthought and with the exception of the monastery at Lhamsa in GAZ3, no Mystara source supplement has used mystics in any actual culture in any interesting or detailed way. The tendency to insert monks/martial artists into cultures where they clearly don't fit in other TSR worlds has always been a pet peeve of mine. Twisting cultures for the sake of creativity is a great part of what Mystara is all about, but it should be done in a way that is holistic and well thought out, not just arbitrary. The fact that power gamers as a rule tend to love kung fu killing machine characters is no reason why ninja-monks should appear across the world. The Mystics of Vanya which someone posted recently, while interesting and well done from a game mechanics point of view, seem absurd culturally. Ascetic martial artists worshipping a Germanic goddess the rest of whose followers live for plate mail and zweihanders? silly. As a historical note, ascetic monks being trained in unarmed combat was a phenomenon confined entirely to East Asia (pseudo-European mystics on Mystara, for instance, might have considerable discipline and mind over body control, but not fighting skills) and grew largely from the fact that all except the warrior class were prohibited from owning weapons in many Asian countries. Karate, for instance, developed from a peasant revolt on Okinawa, where locals had to use their hands and makeshift weapons such as nunchaku (agricultural flails) and tonfa (rice threshing clubs) to defeat Samurai and other soldiers armed with swords and clad in metal armor. A Mystaran mystic order might have developed from similar circumstances ... perhaps an Ochalean revolt against Thyatin abuses? m@2 ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:33:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics << an old Chinese text that said "If Buddha stands in the way of your enlightenment, then push him out of your way." >> I vaguely recall seeing this text paraphrased in much blunter terms: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" But the gentler version is actually easier for Westerners like me to make sense of. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:33:10 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Belcadiz Elves (was: Trees of Life) In a message dated 96-07-05 01:51:03 EDT, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matthew Levy) writes: << while we're on the subject of the nature of Belcadiz elves, what about the distinctly likely possibility that they are actually expatriates from the Savage Baronies? This does not appear in any official TSR source but the Glantri gazeteer does say they come from a faraway land and the Espan speaking nations of the Red Steel set would be culturally and linguistically consistent. Perhaps the Clan Alhambra were a noble family who managed to escape the red curse by moving to Glantri? This could potentially serve up adventure hooks galore. >> This all sounds pretty good, especially the cultural connection. However, at the time the ancestors of the Belcadiz elves would have left the Savage Coast area, the Red Curse would have been far less of a concern than it is now. In fact, one of the major effects of the Red Curse is that its victims really can't leave the affected area. The Belcadiz elves would have left the area for other reasons, and the Red Curse at that time would be either non-existent or restricted to a few small areas where they didn't live. ------------------------------ From: "W.R.Mason III" Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:32:56 +0900 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics - Shin Chang Yu Shin said, >Do you by any chance know the original phrase in Chinese? I'm not saying you are wrong, but many times when people quoting Chinese phrases, I could not figure out what they are, and it really annoys me. Another phrase that I never figured out is "may you live in a interesting time" It comes from an old, Chinese, now extinct form of Buddhism which was the forerunner of Zen Buddhism (which came, like so many other things, from China to Japan). I suppose it wasn't popular enough in China to last. Check out Zen Buddhism in China, and you should be able to find references to this old form of Buddhism. New Buddhism is VERY worship oriented in most parts of Asia, and most people have forgotten what it means to toil as the true followers of Buddha once did. They seem to think that worship alone will get them a ticket to "Heaven". Zen Buddhists and "original" Buddhists would disagree, but I think it's the price you pay for popularized "mish-mash" religion. Mystics in Mystara really make sense if they do not "worship" nearly as much as Clerics, if at all -- if they are like Zen Monks. I'm not surprised you don't know the phrase -- it is hardly a part of current Chinese culture, seein as how the religion/philosophy in question died (at least as far as I know). Sorry, can't help you with your second phrase (grin). >There are no terms in Japanese that translates to "Red haired ghost," "Western sea ghost," etc? I find that highly unlikely. They are probably not used much anymore, but I'm pretty sure there are some. Yes! Glad you caught me. There are many interesting Japanese "ghosts", but most are like western "Trolls" and have little religious significance - -- most were/are for scary bedtime stories for children, it seems. The most famous of these are called "Oni" and look a lot like demons but are considered more as "evil spirits". The old "Oriental Adventures" did a semi-decent job of explaining these as "monsters". As an interesting note - Westerners on first contact and Americans during WW2 were referred to as "Oni". But there are no Japanese friends of mine who believe in them... Later, W. Robinson Mason III ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jul 5 08:09:49 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from IO.COM by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 5 Jul 96 04:09 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA16267 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:39:16 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA16254 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:35:18 -0500 Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA07690 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:32:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA08045 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:33:10 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:33:10 -0400 Message-ID: <960705033306_231355381@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@IO.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics Content-Length: 324 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@IO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@IO.COM << an old Chinese text that said "If Buddha stands in the way of your enlightenment, then push him out of your way." >> I vaguely recall seeing this text paraphrased in much blunter terms: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" But the gentler version is actually easier for Westerners like me to make sense of. ------------------------------ From: "W.R.Mason III" Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:33:03 +0900 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics Let me start by saying that I hope this is the last of the Mystic letters. I only address it at the beginning here...(and due to an unwarranted personal attack) - -Azure (David Leland) Wrote, >Welcome to the Mystara list. I have to say that I found your post to be the most obnoxious, self-rightous, immature, and denigrating post I have ever read here. And a good day to you, too, David. Glad to know you're out there. >In any case, I hate to break it to you, but history does not necessitate universality. Those demons are a part of history, and don't have to be a part of every culture to do so. Otherwise should I say that no one should play RPGs in Asian settings since your ancient culture isn't directly a part of my history? Uh, did you notice that I AM an American? I've been living in Japan for seven years, that's all. I found it to be very enlightening, and was sparked off by the mention of "religion" and the quote "you sure hate people who play D&D". I hoped to prevent a religious discussion, but I forgot how seriously some peole take that stuff. Sorry for the unneccessary comments. MY Asian culture? Sorry, I've never met a Mason with Asian roots. >I don't happen to believe in demons, Good to hear that. >or any other supernatural or divine forces for that matter, but that's besides the point. People deserve respect for their beliefs, but it would seem that such respect is beyond your capacity. Ouch -- are people really that touchy? I was wrong, and I apologize. >Those demons are a part of history, and don't have to be a part of every culture to do so. To do so? What dost they do? > have never considered Japanese people as a group to be unenlightened, but you as an individual have, I think, a far ways to go. How dare you complain about this imagined slight against your culture, and then proceed to laugh at, mock, belittle, and call "close-minded" that of others. Hey, guy, I'm the true complainer living here in this culture of conformity (it is NOT a stereotype) -- my Japanese wife tells me I complain too much about it. Perhaps you're right -- I do get a little hot under the collar about things other people take for granted. Sorry yet again -- but remember, I am a Scotch/Irish/German American, and NOT Japanese, which flushes your arguement down the toilet. Go get angry with a real Asian, if you have to. Don't vent your anger here and with me! C-c-c-could YOU be jumping the gun? Did you even read my name, or did you have me all figured out as some American hating Japanese? >One of the things I like quite a bit about Mystara is the chaotic mix of cultures Agreed. And a nice mix it is. >Certainly possibilities. I prefer non-worshipping mystics myself, but have no reason against it. As far as ascension is considered, that is indeed covered in the OD&D rules, especially the Cyclopedia where mystics were considered as candidates for Immortality while in the Master's set they weren't directly dealt with. I love the Cyclopedia. I worship it. It allowed me to trash boxes of rules that were hogging up my closet. I was lucky to have found it in a shop when I went back to the States last summer. The Immortals rules were good as well. But the ARTWORK! Gag! That was some really bad stuff! No wonder Old D&D went down! > If so, what are you doing on the Mystara list in the first place, out of curiosity? I didn't know that you were so *exclusive*, David. I'd better just pidgeonhole myself into one category, huh? I can't like Mystara and other RPG's at the same time, I guess. A blasphemer I am. I'd better cut out all hobbies and interests but Mystara, and then you'd allow me to stay, right? As for using historical stuff -- I really would rather see a completely From ???@??? Sat Jul 06 13:47:11 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA05005; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 01:17:57 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA17847 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:54:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:54:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199607051454.JAA17847@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #149 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 0184c8188bdaf40ccbc8c5a4e536db00 "original" world -- perhaps something like the Conan world. The Mystara world has its nostalgic value with me, but after reading the Lord of the Rings, I was appalled at how so many ideas are blatant rip-offs. "The Shires"? I cringed when I saw this in a different light. I'm not crazy about Tolkien, but Mystara went a little too far there. I'd rather have seen a lot of original and new nations like the one introduced in the old module "Isle of Dread". Or (my favorite) the Forbidden City. (Then again, maybe that wasn't original and I just don't know it) Anyway, let's not make this an arguement about "what is originality", because I know the tale. Still, I wish that the "Hollow World" had been a different world entirely, because I like that setting, and it is sufficiently original for my taste. Yes, Gandalf/Elminster is one of the characters in AD&D Forgotten Realms I hate most. Dark Sun? A great idea, but a little too limited in scope. Later, Wallace Robinson Mason III (nope, no Asian names in there, David) ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jul 5 08:21:18 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 5 Jul 96 04:21 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA16262 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:39:00 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA16251 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:34:58 -0500 Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA07689 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:32:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA16322 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:33:10 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:33:10 -0400 Message-ID: <960705033310_231355368@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Belcadiz Elves (was: Trees of Life) Content-Length: 1180 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-05 01:51:03 EDT, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matthew Levy) writes: << while we're on the subject of the nature of Belcadiz elves, what about the distinctly likely possibility that they are actually expatriates from the Savage Baronies? This does not appear in any official TSR source but the Glantri gazeteer does say they come from a faraway land and the Espan speaking nations of the Red Steel set would be culturally and linguistically consistent. Perhaps the Clan Alhambra were a noble family who managed to escape the red curse by moving to Glantri? This could potentially serve up adventure hooks galore. >> This all sounds pretty good, especially the cultural connection. However, at the time the ancestors of the Belcadiz elves would have left the Savage Coast area, the Red Curse would have been far less of a concern than it is now. In fact, one of the major effects of the Red Curse is that its victims really can't leave the affected area. The Belcadiz elves would have left the area for other reasons, and the Red Curse at that time would be either non-existent or restricted to a few small areas where they didn't live. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 04:59:55 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Slavery in Mystara According to available information, slavery in the Known World is practiced in a few places. Here are the places where slavery can be confirmed: Alphatian Empire Thyatian Empire These two nations, while described in a single boxed set, each cover more territory than the other nations of the Known World combined. I suspect that during the early 11th century slavery would have been abolished in the remains of Alphatia and in the Pearl Islands. Ostland -- But Queen Yrsa is attempting to abolish the practice there. Karameikos -- Fort Doom only, and only until Baron Ludwig was deposed. Ylaruam -- Debtors may be sold into slavery, but it is unclear whether they are sold locally or abroad. Glantri -- Humans and elves may not be enslaved but there seem to be no limits as to what Glantrian wizards may do with captured dwarves and goblinoids. Given changes after "Wrath", it is likely that treatment of these races will have improved, but humans and (especially) elves can no longer consider their freedom secure. Ierendi -- Honor Island only, where the fire mages keep goblin slaves. Given the history of the rest of the islands, it seems unlikely that they would tolerate slavery elsewhere. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Fri, 5 Jul 96 5:19:41 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics Peter Donald writes: > > On Wed, 3 Jul 96 14:00:50 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: > > > Their relationship is *EXTREMELY* obvious. I have both sets of > >rules and they are almost identical in abilities. It would be ludicrous > >to say that TSR didn't base the Mystic on the Monk. > > Ludicrous but true (assuming you're referring to the AD&D1 Monk). Take a look at the mechanics governing the AD&D1 Monk. Good. Now take a look at the mechanics governing the OD&D Mystic. Notice something? Of course you do! You cannot deny it. The Mystic *WAS* based on the Monk. Take another look at both classes. You can hold to idealism all you want, but the facts are plain and simple and laid out for you to see. > >A statement was made > >to the effect that, in order for the lack of religion in the Mystic class > >to be the fault of TSR's moralizing, it would have had to have been linked > >with religion and then have that link severed. It was. The Mystic *IS* a > >modified form of the Monk class. The Monk class contained religious > >conatations, the Mystic class doesn't. > The A&D Monks were described as "monastic aesthetics" (one of my > all-time favourite typos, that), which could be seen as either > religious or philosophical, depending on one's personal bent. The way AD&D Monk's have been used seems to be in a religious manner, they were even required to tithe to RELIGIOUS institutions. In OD&D they carefully separate the Mystic from any kind of religious notion, but fall short of actually saying right out that they are in no way a religious class. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jul 5 09:39:13 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 5 Jul 96 05:39 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA16514 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 04:09:06 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA16496 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 04:00:06 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA09686 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:59:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA10593 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 04:59:55 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 04:59:55 -0400 Message-ID: <960705045954_231369431@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Slavery in Mystara Content-Length: 1208 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com According to available information, slavery in the Known World is practiced in a few places. Here are the places where slavery can be confirmed: Alphatian Empire Thyatian Empire These two nations, while described in a single boxed set, each cover more territory than the other nations of the Known World combined. I suspect that during the early 11th century slavery would have been abolished in the remains of Alphatia and in the Pearl Islands. Ostland -- But Queen Yrsa is attempting to abolish the practice there. Karameikos -- Fort Doom only, and only until Baron Ludwig was deposed. Ylaruam -- Debtors may be sold into slavery, but it is unclear whether they are sold locally or abroad. Glantri -- Humans and elves may not be enslaved but there seem to be no limits as to what Glantrian wizards may do with captured dwarves and goblinoids. Given changes after "Wrath", it is likely that treatment of these races will have improved, but humans and (especially) elves can no longer consider their freedom secure. Ierendi -- Honor Island only, where the fire mages keep goblin slaves. Given the history of the rest of the islands, it seems unlikely that they would tolerate slavery elsewhere. ------------------------------ From: kevinaug@ihug.co.nz (Kevin Augenstein) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:59:12 +1200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrians and Immortals Message follows. At 12:24 AM 5/7/96, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: >> >> Artifacts are magical items, to be studied and used as the owner >> wishes. Remember that the "inner circle" at the School of Magic >> studies and makes use of the Radiance, which is the magical >> energy that comes from an artifact known as the Nucleus of the >> Spheres. >> >But most Glantrian wizard don't know that the Radiance come from >an artifact. Also, even if they do they would think it is >created by Rad, their own immortal. > I always thought that the Nucleus of Spheres was created by people in Blackmoor, and not by immortals, so wouldn't that mean that the Glantrains have nothing at all against it. But as I've got no information on Blackmoor at all I could be wrong, and I have seen the Nucleus of Spheres noted as an artifact, but then again that could just be one of thoose slip-ups. One other thing, I know that with the old gaz. on Glantria it had some table about magic failing in the world, depending on how many wizards were using the radience, as I've miss-placed my gaz can some-one tell me about this. - ----- Kevin Finn Augenstein. kevinaug@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ From: "W.R.Mason III" Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 21:10:30 +0900 Subject: [Mystara] Alignment Worship I did it and wrote more on this! I'm sorry -- Jody Wrote: >The way AD&D Monk's have been used seems to be in a religious manner, they were even required to tithe to RELIGIOUS institutions. In OD&D they carefully separate the Mystic from any kind of religious notion, but fall short of actually saying right out that they are in no way a religious class.< Look up the meaning of "religious", and I think you will find it as a VERY broad term, one that has been abused over the years to equate only with "religions" similar in nature to X-ianity, and other popular monotheistic groups of today. So - if I "religiously" meditate every day, and keep up my so-called "philosophical" monastery going, there is nothing wrong with using the word "religion" to describe such as Zen Buddhism. Let's look at the root of this argument: TSR kowtows to Christian right-wingers? OR TSR decides to save paper and makes the description for mystics less detailed? I personally think the latter is more likely. The former would mean that TSR would have to trash the Cleric class as well or focus on that goofy "Worship of Alignments" idea even more. Did anyone think that was as lame an idea as I? Almost as bad as the implausible idea of Alignment languages. Some of these "rationalizations" and simplifications sure make one wonder whether TSR really was trying to evade heat from the religious right wing. Thoughts on the likelihood of an Alignment worshipper in your Mystara campaign? I've yet to see one, but there MUST be one out there. And what became of character sheets and that old favorite "Patron Deity"? Has that line gone the way of the dinosaur as well? Well, it would never happen here in Japan -- noone cares enough about all that stuff. W R. Mason III ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:17:46 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Trees of Life At 00.43 05/07/96 -0400, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S pontificated: >> >> > Codex of the Immortals says that the Tree of Life is a living artifact that >> > Ilsundal created on his road to Immortality; but: 1) Ilsundal undertook the >> > Path of the Paragon that requires him to quest for a lesser artifact of the >> > sphere of Energy and to create an entirely new magical item, but not to >> > create an artifact, 2) if it was really an artifact shouldn't it have >> > Handicaps & Penalties ? >> >> The magical item a paragon must create must be one unique, powerful >> and not created before. The candidate is almost an immortal when >> he/she creates it. So, IMO, an artifact is exactly what the path of >> the paragon requires. Even if it is not, an artifact would certainly >> fulfill its requirements. But I do feel that the Handicaps & Penalties >> problem should be addresed. The first obvious one is that someone who >> uses a Tree of Life feel compelled to protect the forest and the elves >> living there, becoming a fanatic follower of Ilsundal's teachings. It >> could also leave the Treekeepers weaker when the perform their rituals >> and cerimonies, a temporary weakness. I don't have the Alfheim >> gazeteer, so somebody else will have to check it to see if there is >> any mention to a fact like that in it. Anyway, it wouldn's be a >> handicap difficult to impose. >> >Some other possible handicaps. Its power decreases with each use, >and requires time to recharge. Only an elf can use it. Require >constant care from the Treekeeper or it will start to lose power >and/or die. All those was stated or could be inferred from the >description of the ToL, so it already have a bunch of handicaps. >Oh another one, it can not be moved very easily. > As I said in another mail, I've found in CM7 that a Tree of Life could be moved if its roots are kept in its original ground. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #149 ***************************** From ???@??? Sat Jul 06 13:47:21 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA10442; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 07:04:12 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA20038 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:40:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:40:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199607052040.PAA20038@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #150 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 09c900f2efa5015ff5f0c18be1e3d6c7 mystara-digest Friday, 5 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 150 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:17:41 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion At 16.00 04/07/96 -0300, Andre Cavalcanti wrote: >Good job. I am eager to see the rest. I think we should include a >section of timelines like yours in the net.book about Mystara. I would >start writing something, but I have only one month to finish my >thesis, so it will have to wait. Tanks. > >About the spell, have you worked the details? Is it a true dweomer, >like those someone (I forgot who, sorry) posted for von Drachenfels? >>From your timeline, I got the impression that it involved several >mages casting it, maybe during a week or two, from several different >points under Alfheim. I would use it this way. The spell must affect >an artifact, something mortals didn't know to be possible, except by >the way legends tell the artifact can be destroyed. And it should work >in a huge area. That's why I believe it is a true dweomer requiring >great efforts to cast. We've not worked out the details of the spell yet, I also asked Ann Dupuis for help but received no answer (probably she's busy). About True Dweomer: I remember Bob Kaelin posting about it and IIRC it's an AD&D thing for mages of level 20+ and high Int, right ? Actually my Mystara is an OD&D Mystara, so I didn't think at True Dweomer however it can be a solution. About casting time we figured out at least a month with several mages at work together in various caves under Alfheim. >And the glantrians would be delighted to >discover that a number of powerful wizards have the power to work >against immortal magic. They might consider preparing themselves for a >war against the immortal themselves, not in the near future, maybe in >one or two centuries. But when the truth that the shadow elves' magic >could do that, they would certainly send agents to learn from them and >propose an alliance (they will need every help they can get if they >want to save Canolbarth from total destruction when they realize the >damage they have done). And a new secret society will rise in Glantri, >one devoted to study the magics capable of confronting the >immortals. Of course, it would be extremely scretive and, as I see it, >doomed to failure, but who knows? Anyway, they will cause lots of >problems and adventures. > I also figured out an alliance between Glantri and Aengmor in the future to save the Canolbarth forest, especially if Etienne d'Ambreville returns as Rad after Mark of Amber (remember the alliance between Rad and Rafiel). >Another doubt, how long do you believe it will take for the Trees of >Life to die? It will take several years, maybe decades, since the >elves haven't moved to conquer Alfheim back until 1014 AC, something >they would try desperately if the Trees were to die soon. This was one of the reasons for which I've stopped writing my timeline. WotI says that the Trees of Life are almost dead when the elves flee, but I doubt that: 1) Ilsundal would let his Trees die and his followers without Trees of Life 2) Alfheim Elves would let the Trees of Life in the hands of Shadow Elves 3) Shadow Elves would let the Trees die because of the spell without taking a heavy axe and cutting them down. But yesterday I found something new: in CM7 page 33 it says that a Tree of Life may be carried away with its roots in its original ground. We could slightly change that line in WotI about Treekeepers fleeing with "healthy cuttings" from their Trees, into "fleeing with their Trees of Life". This would solve the problem, but I don't know if it contrasts with the PWA or Joshuan Almanac, I'll check soon. > >Ilsundal certainly has a good guess about how long they will last and >is preparing a war, certainly moving trying to move Karameikos against >the Shadow Elves. Kagyar (was this the name of the dwarven god?) could >ally with him, the dwarves now (1014) hate the Shadow Elves more than >they did their previous neighbors, specially after they had to escape >from that humanoid city floating in the lava under the Broken >Lands. So, guess what, another world war. The Brotherhood of Shadow >was not dissolved and is working hard to make it happen, and this time >Ilsundal will be the one to start it. > >The Shadow Elves would have to accept Glantri support (remember the >above alliance), and that could lead Ylaruam into it, against those >mages, as well as the ethengarians. Thyatis would see it as the >perfect oportunity to rebuild its empire, while its competitors >fight. Wendar would certainly side with Alfheim, as well as the Erewan >elves (Glantri is about to get into a civil war). Just trow the Master >siding with whoever is losing or attacking Darokin once more when it >is weakened by all the armies that will be crossing its borders, and >we will have a war longer than the one in WotI. The Shadow Elves >alliance would be in serious problems against so many enemies, and >Atzanteotl could use this fact to force the acceeptance of his >schatenalffen elves in shadow elf society, corrupting it. Maybe he >knew Rafiel's real positin all the time and was working exactly with >this in mind. He is a subtle ploter, right? > This would be a _real_ war, not that stuff in WotI. Very interesting indeed. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrians and Immortals On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Kevin Augenstein wrote: > I always thought that the Nucleus of Spheres was created by people in > Blackmoor, and not by immortals, so wouldn't that mean that the Glantrains > have nothing at all against it. The Nucleus of the Spheres is an artifact that was created by transforming the engine of the USS Beagle, which was created by the aliens of which Rheddrian/Benekander is one. The original machinery was probably more advanced than even Blackmoor was able to get before blowing itself up (otherwise, they'd be in space...wait...there's an idea..anyway) but then made into an artifact, although I currently can't recall whether the Immortals or the Old Ones did it. I think it's the latter. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Banishing Demons and Flames (was Mystics) First, my apologies for my outburst, although I still stick to most of what I said, I don't think I would have put it so harshly given another chance. On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, W.R.Mason III wrote: > -Azure (David Leland) Wrote, > >In any case, I hate to break it to you, but history does not > necessitate universality. Those demons are a part of history, and don't > have to be a part of every culture to do so. Otherwise should I say that > no one should play RPGs in Asian settings since your ancient culture isn't > directly a part of my history? > > Uh, did you notice that I AM an American? I've been living in Japan for > seven years, that's all. I found it to be very enlightening, and was > sparked off > by the mention of "religion" and the quote "you sure hate people who play > D&D". I hoped to prevent a religious discussion, but I forgot how > seriously > some peole take that stuff. Sorry for the unneccessary comments. MY > Asian culture? Sorry, I've never met a Mason with Asian roots. Well, you got me on the roots. I did see the name but it didn't phase me since I'm used to not going by them (My father's an Alabama Jew with roots in Eastern Europe, my mother's Cuban, and my last name is Irish or Scottish based). I don't take personal offense from the comments, but I just have a problem with that kind of putting-down of people's religious beliefs in general. While you certainly caught me on the assumption of your culture, it doesn't really change the bitterness of what you said, except perhaps to make it unpatriotic instead of nationalist ;). I think some things were said in the thread that you took the wrong way, first being the thing about demons, where I mentioned historicalness because I think that that is what is more likely to tick of the moral majority that engages in D&D bashing, so that the perseverence of demons with names and characteristics of ones based on real world conceptions (not real world existence, mind you) in OD&D would indicate that TSR was not all that paranoid about religious overtones at the time they introduced the mystics. That's all that was about, period. Also, I think you misinterpreted the "hate people who play D&D" thing. Jody said that of me, but _specifically_ about AD&D. The accusation was not that I hate roleplayers (those pesky devil-worshippers! ;)), but that I hate people who play AD&D instead of OD&D (which is, incidentally, untrue). No problem with it from me, but I still think it's funny that you asked for us to avoid a corny religious discussion when, as far as I'm concerned we never entered into one, and yet in another post you continue to talk about them. But anyway. > >Those demons are a part of history, and don't > have to be a part of every culture to do so. > > To do so? What dost they do? Hey, man, it's hard to talk sensibly about intangible cultural fictional monstrosities, ok? :) What I meant is that in order to be a part of history (and history consists of more than physically real entities, I hope you'll agree), something need not be a part of the history of every culture or individual on the planet. I think that the inclusion of demons like Orcus and Demogorgon in the OD&D Master's rules shows that TSR was not all that scared to present religious overtones at the time because the people who attack D&D and think of it as devil-worshipping are particularly reactive to references to demons which are part of their cultural history, even if those people don't believe in the demons themselves. They may think that those are merely fictional (as we do), but that the players of D&D think of them as real and that, given how nasty the moral majority knows those creatures are in fiction or reality, anyone playing a game involving them (as opposed to some un- or lesser-known monstrosity, which wouldn't elicit such a reaction) must be evil or at least doing something very bad for themselves. I hope this makes the intent behind the words clear. > > have never considered Japanese people as a group to be > unenlightened, but you as an individual have, I think, a far ways to go. > How dare you complain about this imagined slight against your culture, and > then proceed to laugh at, mock, belittle, and call "close-minded" that of > others. > > Hey, guy, I'm the true complainer living here in this culture of > conformity > (it is NOT a stereotype) -- my Japanese wife tells me I complain too much > about it. Perhaps you're right -- I do get a little hot under the collar > about > things other people take for granted. Sorry yet again -- but remember, > I am a Scotch/Irish/German American, and NOT Japanese, which flushes > your arguement down the toilet. Go get angry with a real Asian, if you have > to. > Don't vent your anger here and with me! C-c-c-could YOU be jumping the > gun? > Did you even read my name, or did you have me all figured out as some > American > hating Japanese? Again, you got me on the assumption, but I don't think it sends anything down the toilet. I still think it was inconsiderate of you to not closely enough to what was being said to realize that no one was trying to exclude or slight one culture, to go ahead and make what sounded almost like a PC-esque complaint, and then to bash other people in very un-PC fashion. I found it ironic and, to be honest, hypocritical. Now, though, I think that much of what you said was predicated on a very interesting interpretation of what had been said on the mystic thread, and that perhaps you wouldn't have said those things if you knew what I intended but obviously couldn't make clear. By the way, I have no anger for Asians (real or whatever the alternatives are :)), and I hope my anger wasn't seen as directed at a group or type of people; it was at what you said. > I love the Cyclopedia. I worship it. It allowed me to trash boxes of rules > that were > hogging up my closet. I was lucky to have found it in a shop when I went > back to > the States last summer. The Immortals rules were good as well. But the > ARTWORK! Gag! That was some really bad stuff! No wonder Old D&D went > down! The only artwork I find more abominable is that in the AD&D Combat and Tactics book. But it is great to have it all in one place, even if they did omit a few things. > > If so, what are you > doing on the Mystara list in the first place, out of curiosity? > > I didn't know that you were so *exclusive*, David. I'd better just > pidgeonhole > myself into one category, huh? I can't like Mystara and other RPG's at the > same > time, I guess. A blasphemer I am. I'd better cut out all hobbies and > interests but > Mystara, and then you'd allow me to stay, right? Whoa, whoa. Let's take what I said in context. I wondered why you would have interest in a setting that borrows snippets from real-world cultures that are not found in other real-world cultures and mixes them together since you took such offense at the mention of demons that do not appear outside of Christianity (a point which may be debatable). I didn't say you don't belong here--I have no right to nor interest in saying that. > As for using historical stuff -- I really would rather see a completely > "original" > world -- perhaps something like the Conan world. The Mystara world has its > > nostalgic value with me, but after reading the Lord of the Rings, I was > appalled at > how so many ideas are blatant rip-offs. "The Shires"? I cringed when I saw > this > in a different light. I'm not crazy about Tolkien, but Mystara went a > little too far > there. I'd rather have seen a lot of original and new nations like the one > introduced in > the old module "Isle of Dread". Or (my favorite) the Forbidden City. > (Then again, maybe that wasn't original and I just don't know it) Anyway, > let's not make this an arguement about "what is originality", because I know > the tale. Still, I wish that the "Hollow World" had been a different world > entirely, because I like that setting, and it is sufficiently original for > my taste. Yes, Gandalf/Elminster is one of the characters in AD&D Forgotten > Realms I hate most. Dark Sun? A great idea, but a little too limited > in scope. I don't know. I think it's hard to escape resemblances to certain stereotypes, although the Shires wouldn't be hard to fix. I kind of like the connections to real world cultures, though, because it makes them easier to identify with and roleplay with. Of course a totally new (whatever that means) place may be more challenging to play in, but I think that Mystara countries tend to differ enough from their real-world sources of inspiration to make them original enough for me. What bugs me more applies more universally to D&D settings like the stereotypes for the races. One of the things lauded many times on the list is the great flavor and uniquity of the Shadow Elves, which break the mold of evil underground elves. I always find villains with a cause more interesting than mere psychopaths with blood lust. Besides, why would elves who were adapted to a subterranean life have dark instead of pale skin, right? Anyway, I hope we can put this mess behind us. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > Apparently you are too lazy. In the same dictionary I quoted from > above, here is the definition of cleric, "A clergyman." Lovely. Did you bother to notice that clergyman clerics tend more to be scholars and religious scribes than mace-toting crusaders? Did you notice that clerical means office-working? My point is that there is more From ???@??? Sat Jul 06 13:47:21 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA10442; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 07:04:12 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA20038 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:40:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:40:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199607052040.PAA20038@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #150 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 09c900f2efa5015ff5f0c18be1e3d6c7 than one way to define, connote, and interpret words. How about the D&D gorgon? Im Greek mythology, the gorgons are three of a kind, one being Medusa and others likewise snake-haired female monsters, but in D&D gorgons are petrifying-gas-bellowing, armor-plated bulls that may be encountered in herds. If you whip out that dictionary too often, you might as well trash D&D and start from square one. Do D&D druids burn cats live to gain augury into the coming year? > As for creating a literal and logistic argument (by which I assume you > mean logical rather than something to do with supplies and services), > I will treat that as a compliment. There is nothing wrong with being logical > and precise. Of course there's nothing wrong with it, but there's a time and a place. I didn't mean to bash logic, etc., but I think that taking things too literally can make you lose sight of much meaning, much of the richness and variability of words, especially in a role-playing game. > I find this prevents people from misunderstanding me. But it can sometimes prevent you from understanding other people, no? > In short, it allows me to communicate my views. People can, of course, > discard the dictionary definitions and logical implications, but then there > is no basis for communication. While dictionary definitions and logic are useful and to some extent necessary for communication, I stand in strong but friendly disagreement with the above statement. I'm tempted to rail off my views as a cognitive scientist, but I blabber enough here as it is and it's not really that important. I will, however, recommend Raymond Gibbs' _The Poetics of Mind_ as a counterargument if you're interested, or we can discuss it off the list. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics The band Shriekback has yet another paraphrase of this quote : "If you see the Buddha along the road, gun him down, gun him down" m@2 On Fri, 5 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > << an old Chinese text that said "If Buddha stands in the way of your > enlightenment, then push him out of your way." >> > > I vaguely recall seeing this text paraphrased in much blunter terms: > "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" But the gentler version > is actually easier for Westerners like me to make sense of. > ------------------------------ From: jam@wimsey.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics In a previous message Matthew Levy said: > [...] > As described in the original Master rules the mystic seems like a bit of > an afterthought and with the exception of the monastery at Lhamsa in > GAZ3, no Mystara source supplement has used mystics in any actual culture > in any interesting or detailed way. Have you seen the "Champions of Mystara" Boxed set? The region of Sind is described as having several varieties of Mystic cults which seemed interesting. I'll admit the details were scanty, but that just gives a DM some "breathing room" (so to speak). > [...] > As a historical note, ascetic monks being trained in unarmed combat was a > phenomenon confined entirely to East Asia (pseudo-European mystics on > Mystara, for instance, might have considerable discipline and mind over > body control, but not fighting skills) and grew largely from the fact > that all except the warrior class were prohibited from owning weapons in > many Asian countries. Karate, for instance, developed from a peasant > revolt on Okinawa, where locals had to use their hands and makeshift > weapons such as nunchaku (agricultural flails) and tonfa (rice threshing > clubs) to defeat Samurai and other soldiers armed with swords and clad in > metal armor. A Mystaran mystic order might have developed from similar > circumstances ... perhaps an Ochalean revolt against Thyatin abuses? This is true. But this kind of thing doesn't have to be restricted to an "Asian Flavoured" area -- just any area defined with a society where, at some time in the past or pressent, lower classes were not allowed "real" weaponry (i.e., swords, spears, axes, etc. Things like the staff (being originally nothing more than a large, thick, "walking" stick) were usually not considered to be weapons from the point of view of the upper classes.) Just my $0.02 worth. :-) - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield : ............ -=< strawberryJAMM >=- : Black Holes Are Merely jam@wimsey.com : Where God Divided By Zero http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html : ............... ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz Elves (was: Trees of Life) This is all a hypothesis of course, so decide how you like ... but as I understand it the Red Curse is very ancient, on the order of a millenium or two ... long before the Alhambrans would have emigrated to Glantri, which cannot have been more than a few hundred years ago, given the political history of Glantri. Also, my point was that perhaps they left in SPITE of the fact that those with the curse are not normally able to leave - they might possess a secret (perhaps linked to the radiance) which would permit them to purge the influence of the curse once outside the Savage coast. m@2 On Fri, 5 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 96-07-05 01:51:03 EDT, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matthew > Levy) writes: > > << while we're on the subject of the nature of Belcadiz elves, what about > the distinctly likely possibility that they are actually expatriates from > the Savage Baronies? This does not appear in any official TSR source but > the Glantri gazeteer does say they come from a faraway land and the Espan > speaking nations of the Red Steel set would be culturally and > linguistically consistent. Perhaps the Clan Alhambra were a noble family > who managed to escape the red curse by moving to Glantri? This could > potentially serve up adventure hooks galore. >> > > This all sounds pretty good, especially the cultural connection. However, > at the time the ancestors of the Belcadiz elves would have left the Savage > Coast area, the Red Curse would have been far less of a concern than > it is now. In fact, one of the major effects of the Red Curse is that its > victims really can't leave the affected area. The Belcadiz elves would > have left the area for other reasons, and the Red Curse at that time would > be either non-existent or restricted to a few small areas where they didn't > live. > ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics - Shin Chang Yu Afraid you've missed the point again, old chap. I believe Shin was referring not to the existence of "religion" in Japan by his mention of "Western Sea Ghosts" but rather to the fact that Japanese culture can be and has been as racist and xenophobic as any other culture - re: the earlier idiotic discussion of who is more enlightened and tolerant than who. (Of course, it may just be that Japanese xenophobia towards "sea ghosts" - the Oni to whom you do refer tangentially - is what preserved the islands from Western imperialism and prepared Japan to be a world power today, but this is beside the point here) It seems to me that you have a great deal of knowledge about Zen and about Japanese culture but not a great deal of awareness about how to sociallly interact with others ... perhaps since mystics seem to be the hot topic you could suggest ways in which Zen traditions could be borrowed for Mystaran mystics in order to flush out the campaign background. Instead of worrying about the technical definition of religion or pointing out the faults of Christianity (which I agree is too easy to be sporting) you might add some creative detail to share with all of us, which is after all what this list is here for. By the way, what are your views on Psionics with respect to this whole set of problems? m@2 On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, W.R.Mason III wrote: > > Shin said, > > >Do you by any chance know the original phrase in Chinese? I'm not > saying you are wrong, but many times when people quoting Chinese phrases, > I could not figure out what they are, and it really annoys me. > Another phrase that I never figured out is "may you live in a > interesting time" > > It comes from an old, Chinese, now extinct form of Buddhism which was the > forerunner > of Zen Buddhism (which came, like so many other things, from China to > Japan). I suppose it wasn't popular enough in China to last. > Check out Zen Buddhism in China, and you should be able > to find references to this old form of Buddhism. New Buddhism is VERY > worship > oriented in most parts of Asia, and most people have forgotten what it means > to > toil as the true followers of Buddha once did. They seem to think that > worship > alone will get them a ticket to "Heaven". Zen Buddhists and "original" > Buddhists > would disagree, but I think it's the price you pay for popularized > "mish-mash" religion. > Mystics in Mystara really make sense if they do not "worship" nearly as > much > as Clerics, if at all -- if they are like Zen Monks. > I'm not surprised you don't know the phrase -- it is hardly a part of > current Chinese > culture, seein as how the religion/philosophy in question died (at least as > far as I > know). > > Sorry, can't help you with your second phrase (grin). > > >There are no terms in Japanese that translates to "Red haired ghost," > "Western sea ghost," etc? I find that highly unlikely. They are > probably not used much anymore, but I'm pretty sure there are some. > > Yes! Glad you caught me. There are many interesting Japanese "ghosts", > but most are like western "Trolls" and have little religious significance > -- > most were/are for scary bedtime stories for children, it seems. > The most famous of these are called "Oni" and look a lot like demons but > are considered more as "evil spirits". The old "Oriental Adventures" did > a > semi-decent job of explaining these as "monsters". > As an interesting note - Westerners on first contact and Americans during > WW2 were referred to as "Oni". But there are no Japanese friends of mine > who believe in > them... > > Later, > > W. Robinson Mason III > > > ------------------------------ From: ZDFY66B@prodigy.com (MR JOSEPH M GERBER) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:09:46, -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrians and Immortals On Friday, 5 Jul 1996, David Lelend wrote: >but then made into an artifact, although I currently can't recall whether >the Immortals or the Old Ones did it. I think it's the latter. If my memory of WotI is correct, the destruction of the Beagle gave the Nucleus the potential to be an artifact, but that an unknown Old One actually turned it into an artifact. It was later modified by the Immortals to drain energy from the Sphere of Energy. (Which, during the WotI war, everybody completly forgot about.) Joe Gerber (delurking after a long absence, and under a new addy) ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:57:06 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion Fabrizio wrote: > We've not worked out the details of the spell yet, I also asked Ann Dupuis > for help but received no answer (probably she's busy). > About True Dweomer: I remember Bob Kaelin posting about it and IIRC it's an > AD&D thing for mages of level 20+ and high Int, right ? Actually my Mystara > is an OD&D Mystara, so I didn't think at True Dweomer however it can be a > solution. Right. It would need some conversion for OD&D, but it can be done. Of course, it must be kept extremely difficult to cast. I've also seen in The Book of Magecraft, from the Birthright campaign, battle spells, that are stronger versions of normal spells, capable of affecting entire untis, so you could charm a unit or send a shower of magic missiles. I think the way it was done there was too munchkin, they requires many components, auxiliars and a big casting time (what is right), but they didn's increase the spell level I just can't see a first level mage charming a whole unit just because he is very well prepared and with enough time, but the concept is interesting, if you do raise the spell level. But I still feel a true dweomer should be the proper solution, Atzanteotl would certainly be able to teach one for the elves. BTW, I have both books, this one and the one with true dweomers, so if you want to know something, please, ask. > I also figured out an alliance between Glantri and Aengmor in the future to > save the Canolbarth forest, especially if Etienne d'Ambreville returns as > Rad after Mark of Amber (remember the alliance between Rad and Rafiel). If we will be dealing with the future events for Mystara, I think we should make a decision concerning the events in Mark of Amber. Of course, anyone can disagree about anything, but we need an "official" position about Etienne. Please, EVERYBODY, send your opinions on it. Does Etienne recover his immortality? I will be working in fture events and I would like to know what most people here think about it. > This was one of the reasons for which I've stopped writing my timeline. > WotI says that the Trees of Life are almost dead when the elves flee, but I > doubt that: > 1) Ilsundal would let his Trees die and his followers without Trees of Life > 2) Alfheim Elves would let the Trees of Life in the hands of Shadow Elves > 3) Shadow Elves would let the Trees die because of the spell without taking > a heavy axe and cutting them down. > But yesterday I found something new: in CM7 page 33 it says that a Tree of > Life may be carried away with its roots in its original ground. We could > slightly change that line in WotI about Treekeepers fleeing with "healthy > cuttings" from their Trees, into "fleeing with their Trees of Life". This > would solve the problem, but I don't know if it contrasts with the PWA or > Joshuan Almanac, I'll check soon. I agree with you, but I think there is some mention in the Alamanacs about a group of young elves trying to recover something in Alfheim. I will check it also, unless I hear from you sooner, which is more probable. Anyway, I don't think the Alfheim elves would take their precious Trees through the Cruth mountains in the winter, or cross the khanates. If they can carry them, they would have taken them to Darokin and left a strong honor guard to defend them. Darokin would certainly be willing to help and would have provided a good place for them. It would have been the safest option at the time, and the shadow elves could have stopped any later attempts to take them to Karameikos. But I believe that CM7 just wasn't clear enough. Sure, a Tree of Life can be carried away with its roots in its original ground, but that is not something to be taken lightly. It requires a ritual that takes more than one year (at least a few months) and it weakens the Tree. As you pointed in your timeline, the elves didn't decided to flee immediately, so, when they do, the Trees are very weak, and they will hardly survive the trip. So the Alfheim elves could have worked on a countespell (they certainly tried). They weren't able to stop the shadow elves magic, but they were able to slow the dying of the Trees and to hide them, making them to appear as normal, dying trees. One more reason for them to reconquer their homeland before the Trees are discovered. Of course, that's just an idea, but it seems reasonable to me. > >Ilsundal certainly has a good guess about how long they will last and > >is preparing a war, certainly moving trying to move Karameikos against > >the Shadow Elves. > > ... > This would be a _real_ war, not that stuff in WotI. Very interesting indeed. I have worked a few extra details in a private email to Kaviyd@aol.com and I could post it to the list if you want. I haven't done so yet, because I intend to think it better before posting, but if more people want to participate in the discussions, I will gladly post it. Or I can send the email personally to anyone interested in helping. Andre Martins ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #150 ***************************** mystara-digest Saturday, 6 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 151 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Donald" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 96 17:04:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics On Fri, 5 Jul 96 5:19:41 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: >Peter Donald writes: >> >> On Wed, 3 Jul 96 14:00:50 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: >> >> > Their relationship is *EXTREMELY* obvious. I have both sets of >> >rules and they are almost identical in abilities. It would be ludicrous >> >to say that TSR didn't base the Mystic on the Monk. >> >> Ludicrous but true (assuming you're referring to the AD&D1 Monk). > > Take a look at the mechanics governing the AD&D1 Monk. Good. Now >take a look at the mechanics governing the OD&D Mystic. Notice something? Yep. >Of course you do! You cannot deny it. I don't. >The Mystic *WAS* based on the Monk. Note carefully the proviso in brackets above (re: AD&D1 Monk). Then hit a used game auction and dig through the original (not Basic Set et al - original) D&D material; you're probably looking for Eldritch Wizardry, although it might be the original Blackmoor supplement - it's been a *long* time. Then get back to me. >Take another look at both classes. You can hold to idealism all you want, >but the facts are plain and simple and laid out for you to see. 'Tain't idealism - it's a sense of history. >> >A statement was made >> >to the effect that, in order for the lack of religion in the Mystic class >> >to be the fault of TSR's moralizing, it would have had to have been linked >> >with religion and then have that link severed. It was. The Mystic *IS* a >> >modified form of the Monk class. The Monk class contained religious >> >conatations, the Mystic class doesn't. > > > >> The A&D Monks were described as "monastic aesthetics" (one of my >> all-time favourite typos, that), which could be seen as either >> religious or philosophical, depending on one's personal bent. > > The way AD&D Monk's have been used seems to be in a religious >manner, they were even required to tithe to RELIGIOUS institutions. As I said - the line between religious & philosophical is pretty thin. The original inspiration was Kwai Chang Caine and the Shaolin, not the Hounds of God (obscure Latin pun) or St. Benedict; calling them "mystics" strikes me as plain good sense, since it rather better reflects what they're supposed to be. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:31:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz Elves (was: Trees of Life) In a message dated 96-07-05 14:41:38 EDT, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matthew Levy) writes: << but as I understand it the Red Curse is very ancient, on the order of a millenium or two ... >> The Red Curse dates back about 1500 years, but until 1009 AC it was confined to a few small areas of the Savage Baronies -- the rest of the Savage Coast was free of the Curse until quite recently. But the main consideration for the Alhambra/Belcadiz elves moving to Glantri must have been their desire to exploit the Radiance -- after all, they moved to Glantri alone, not to other parts of the Known World, and nothing in particular was happening to drive them out of the Savage Coast at the time they arrived (which had to have been between 600 AC and 800 AC). ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:04:31 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Return of Rad In a message dated 96-07-05 17:01:50 EDT, acrmarti@snfma1.if.usp.br (Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S) writes: << If we will be dealing with the future events for Mystara, I think we should make a decision concerning the events in Mark of Amber. Of course, anyone can disagree about anything, but we need an "official" position about Etienne. Please, EVERYBODY, send your opinions on it. Does Etienne recover his immortality? I will be working in fture events and I would like to know what most people here think about it. >> As I recall, _Mark of Amber_ provides three possible outcomes. In all of them, Prince Etienne returns, though his level of power varies. In general, the greater his power, the greater will be his restraint in exercising what power he has -- he more than any of the other Immortals does not want to repeat the "Wrath" scenario. The most likely outcome seems to be "Partial Success" -- Etienne returns as a mortal, but is wiser and has friends among the Immortals. The other outcomes seem to require exceptionally good or exceptionally poor play on the part of the players of the module. But let us take the worst case -- Etienne returns as a mortal, with no access to the Radiance or friends among the Immortals. However, he is still the most powerful mage in Glantri, and he will quickly perceive Synn as a threat who must be dealt with. His struggle to defeat Synn is just the sort of thing that would give him another chance. So, figure that Etienne spends the next several years working to destroy Synn, and eventually succeeds. In the process he attains Immortality -- by the standard Paragon path if he does not have access to the Radiance. If Etienne is already an Immortal, then his concern is to figure out a way to defeat Synn without taking direct action against her. The key to this suggested history is that only Etienne and those closest to him would have any idea as to how much power he really has. Regardless of where he starts out, by 1020 AC or so we can get him to the same point. How does all this sound? ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:20:22 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad > If we will be dealing with the future events for Mystara, I think we > should make a decision concerning the events in Mark of Amber. Of > course, anyone can disagree about anything, but we need an "official" > position about Etienne. Please, EVERYBODY, send your opinions on > it. Does Etienne recover his immortality? Let me see.. there are 3 outcomes for the module: 1) Etienne returns as the most powerful mage in Glantri, but unable to use the Radiance or able to become Immortal (the PCs are poor roleplayers). 2) Etienne returns as the most powerful mage in Glantri, with Immortal friends, and able to become Immortal in the future (the most likely outcome). 3) Etienne returns as the Immortal Rad, with full access to his former powers (the PCs are /exceptional/ RPers). Now, as far most non-Immortals go, these are essentially the same.. but on the Immortal level, it would make a slight difference. :) I favor #2, myself.. PS: Does anybody think we can ordain an 'Official Mystara Sage', to help resolve such questions, and any other quibbles we invent? Or should we go merrily along ourselves? (Hm.. if the OMS is one of our own, we could do both.. :) ) > I will be working in future > events and I would like to know what most people here think about it. I'd appreciate it if you'd email me (or post generally) what you come up with.. whether 'canon' or not, I'd enjoy reading what you invent. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@IO.COM Date: Sat Jul 6 00:23:38 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 5 Jul 96 20:23 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA20753 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 17:55:01 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA20688 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 17:40:45 -0500 Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22421 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 17:32:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA02804 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:31:37 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:31:37 -0400 Message-ID: <960705183133_349837782@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz Elves (was: Trees of Life) Content-Length: 756 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-05 14:41:38 EDT, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matthew Levy) writes: << but as I understand it the Red Curse is very ancient, on the order of a millenium or two ... >> The Red Curse dates back about 1500 years, but until 1009 AC it was confined to a few small areas of the Savage Baronies -- the rest of the Savage Coast was free of the Curse until quite recently. But the main consideration for the Alhambra/Belcadiz elves moving to Glantri must have been their desire to exploit the Radiance -- after all, they moved to Glantri alone, not to other parts of the Known World, and nothing in particular was happening to drive them out of the Savage Coast at the time they arrived (which had to have been between 600 AC and 800 AC). ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jul 6 00:37:00 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 5 Jul 96 20:36 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA20888 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:24:49 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA20842 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:11:41 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23995 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:05:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA03073 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:04:31 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:04:31 -0400 Message-ID: <960705190431_349865498@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Return of Rad Content-Length: 2074 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-05 17:01:50 EDT, acrmarti@snfma1.if.usp.br (Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S) writes: << If we will be dealing with the future events for Mystara, I think we should make a decision concerning the events in Mark of Amber. Of course, anyone can disagree about anything, but we need an "official" position about Etienne. Please, EVERYBODY, send your opinions on it. Does Etienne recover his immortality? I will be working in fture events and I would like to know what most people here think about it. >> As I recall, _Mark of Amber_ provides three possible outcomes. In all of them, Prince Etienne returns, though his level of power varies. In general, the greater his power, the greater will be his restraint in exercising what power he has -- he more than any of the other Immortals does not want to repeat the "Wrath" scenario. The most likely outcome seems to be "Partial Success" -- Etienne returns as a mortal, but is wiser and has friends among the Immortals. The other outcomes seem to require exceptionally good or exceptionally poor play on the part of the players of the module. But let us take the worst case -- Etienne returns as a mortal, with no access to the Radiance or friends among the Immortals. However, he is still the most powerful mage in Glantri, and he will quickly perceive Synn as a threat who must be dealt with. His struggle to defeat Synn is just the sort of thing that would give him another chance. So, figure that Etienne spends the next several years working to destroy Synn, and eventually succeeds. In the process he attains Immortality -- by the standard Paragon path if he does not have access to the Radiance. If Etienne is already an Immortal, then his concern is to figure out a way to defeat Synn without taking direct action against her. The key to this suggested history is that only Etienne and those closest to him would have any idea as to how much power he really has. Regardless of where he starts out, by 1020 AC or so we can get him to the same point. How does all this sound? ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Fri, 05 Jul 96 20:51:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Friday, 05-Jul-96 04:57 PM > > From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S \ Internet: > (acrmarti@snfma1.if.usp.br) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion > > Fabrizio wrote: > If we will be dealing with the future events for Mystara, I think we should > make a decision concerning the events in Mark of Amber. Of course, anyone can > disagree about anything, but we need an "official" position about Etienne. > Please, EVERYBODY, send your opinions on it. Does Etienne recover his > immortality? I will be working in fture events and I would like to know what > most people here think about it. > Andre Martins > - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Well, my vote goes for Etienne recovering his immortality! Shelby From ???@??? Mon Jul 08 11:03:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA06817; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 14:50:39 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA27799 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:37:10 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:37:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199607070437.XAA27799@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #151 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1f27b62e7a651874396086610fca8eb4 ------------------------------ From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (Shawn) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:15:51 +0900 Subject: [Mystara] New Site on the Web Hello All This is probably a bit gratuitous of me but I have just put up my Mystara Home Page on the net (it should be OK to visit in a few hours). Since this is my first _real_ attempt at a homepage then I would appreciate any comments - and to aid in this I have added a link to an evaluation form for you to fill out. The URL is http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 (sorry for not having anything directly Mystara related to post - I'll work on it) Shawn Stanley s9406058@student.anu.edu.au http://members.tripod.com/~stanles/ http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 17:20:33 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad At 16.57 05/07/96 -0300, Andre Martins wrote: >If we will be dealing with the future events for Mystara, I think we >should make a decision concerning the events in Mark of Amber. Of >course, anyone can disagree about anything, but we need an "official" >position about Etienne. Please, EVERYBODY, send your opinions on >it. Does Etienne recover his immortality? I will be working in fture >events and I would like to know what most people here think about it. > I'm optimist on the final outcome of Mark of Amber, so I favour him being back as Rad, i.e. immortal. Mark of Amber takes place in AC 1012, but I think that after being back Etienne/Rad spends a few years "in the shadow", as he did when coming back from the Land of Mist, figuring out how to defeat Synn. So he would be back on the scene in about 1020 AC. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 17:20:37 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion At 16.57 05/07/96 -0300, Andre Martins wrote: > >I agree with you, but I think there is some mention in the Alamanacs >about a group of young elves trying to recover something in Alfheim. I >will check it also, unless I hear from you sooner, which is more >probable. Anyway, I don't think the Alfheim elves would take their >precious Trees through the Cruth mountains in the winter, or cross the >khanates. If they can carry them, they would have taken them to >Darokin and left a strong honor guard to defend them. Darokin would >certainly be willing to help and would have provided a good place for >them. It would have been the safest option at the time, and the shadow >elves could have stopped any later attempts to take them to >Karameikos. > In the Almanacs there's mention to "Alfheim Avengers": a group of young surface elves that wants to reconquest the Canolbarth forest in a few weeks; but there's nothing about Trees of Life. I agree on Alfheim elves leaving their precious Trees in a safe place in Darokin with a strong honor guard and taking with them only healthy cuttings as said in WotI. But remember that no two ToL can exist within 50 miles (i.e. about 6 hex) of one another. >But I believe that CM7 just wasn't clear enough. Sure, a Tree of Life >can be carried away with its roots in its original ground, but that is >not something to be taken lightly. It requires a ritual that takes >more than one year (at least a few months) and it weakens the Tree. As >you pointed in your timeline, the elves didn't decided to flee >immediately, so, when they do, the Trees are very weak, and they will >hardly survive the trip. So the Alfheim elves could have worked on a >countespell (they certainly tried). They weren't able to stop the >shadow elves magic, but they were able to slow the dying of the Trees >and to hide them, making them to appear as normal, dying trees. One >more reason for them to reconquer their homeland before the Trees are >discovered. Of course, that's just an idea, but it seems reasonable to >me. > Putting together what your ideas and what Herve sent me in private e-mail i Would say that: some of the Treekepers (those of Clans Grunalf and Feadiel above all) begin to work on the trasportation ritual soon, so they're able to take their tree to a safe haven in Darokin, while other Clans (e.g. Mealidil) must leave their Trees in Alfheim disguised as normal dying trees and will have to recover them later, maybe making an agreement with Shadow Elves. Remember: Shadow Elves aren't evil, they only need a colony above ground, thus they've no interest in slaying "friendly" Alfheim elves and Trees of Life. There's not the orcish "love of destruction" in Shadow Elves' blood. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 12:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > I'm optimist on the final outcome of Mark of Amber, so I favour him being > back as Rad, i.e. immortal. > Mark of Amber takes place in AC 1012, but I think that after being back > Etienne/Rad spends a few years "in the shadow", as he did when coming back > from the Land of Mist, figuring out how to defeat Synn. So he would be back > on the scene in about 1020 AC. > So you think Synn will be around that long? Based on Poor Wizard Almanac 3, Jagger should be on the verge of figureing out he has been fooled ... by a dragon no less, and start to work to bring down Synn himself. Of course, by that time, Synn might be too established to be rooted out and Etienne is help is needed to get rid of Synn from Glantri. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: jpdow@Castle.net Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 12:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Mystara World Hello all: I just recently subscribed to this list, because I am interested in finding out a little about the Mystara world in general. Could any of you possibly give me an overview of the world and its major aspects/features? I would appreciate it. Thanks much. :-) Jeremy Dow jpdow@castle.net ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jul 6 17:05:38 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 6 Jul 96 13:05 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA24542 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:30:29 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA24477 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:24:52 -0500 Received: from lance.castle.net (root@LANCE.CASTLE.NET [204.97.214.4]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24986 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:16:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from arther.castle.net (jpdow@ARTHER.CASTLE.NET [204.97.214.3]) by lance.castle.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA25193 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 12:19:41 -0400 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 12:18:17 -0400 (EDT) From: jpdow@Castle.net To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] The Mystara World Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 306 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Hello all: I just recently subscribed to this list, because I am interested in finding out a little about the Mystara world in general. Could any of you possibly give me an overview of the world and its major aspects/features? I would appreciate it. Thanks much. :-) Jeremy Dow jpdow@castle.net ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sat, 6 Jul 96 13:08 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad I've never actually seen/read the "Mark of Amber" module, and I also know little about the WoI stuff (basiclly only what's been bandied about on this mailing list) but based on this description by Daniel: At 20:20 07/05/96 -0400, you wrote: > Let me see.. there are 3 outcomes for the module: 1) Etienne returns as >the most powerful mage in Glantri, but unable to use the Radiance or able >to become Immortal (the PCs are poor roleplayers). 2) Etienne returns as >the most powerful mage in Glantri, with Immortal friends, and able to >become Immortal in the future (the most likely outcome). 3) Etienne >returns as the Immortal Rad, with full access to his former powers (the >PCs are /exceptional/ RPers). I would probably choose option #2 as the "official" outcome myself -- partly because it seems the most likely option, given that most of the time, PC's will be average roleplayers. Also, with option #2, it would be possible to let Etienne become an Immortal within some amount of time, and so the outcome after X-more-years could be made essentially the same. i.e., Etienne comes back, and spends the time to become an immortal in some specified number of years, at which point he then does whatever comes next. Or, Etienne is an Immortal, and spends the same specified number of years plotting, researching, etc and then does whatever comes next. That seems to make the most sense, and allows individual campaigns to enjoy roughly the same timeline in *at*least* two thirds of the cases (since, by standard "bell curve" statistics much less than one third of all D&D players would probably fail to acheive enough in a game to cause option 1 to occur). Just another of my $0.02 worth. :-) - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 20:03:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > In the Almanacs there's mention to "Alfheim Avengers": a group of young > surface elves that wants to reconquest the Canolbarth forest in a few weeks; > but there's nothing about Trees of Life. > I agree on Alfheim elves leaving their precious Trees in a safe place in > Darokin with a strong honor guard and taking with them only healthy cuttings > as said in WotI. But remember that no two ToL can exist within 50 miles > (i.e. about 6 hex) of one another. A point I believe the editors and writers at TSR forgot themselves, as it seems to me that at least two, and possibly more ToL are within the 50 mile limit of one another in the forest of Alfheim (spec. the Feadiel and, I think, Mealidil trees). ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:30:55 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Solo modules While looking through my old modules the other day, I found some of the solo modules.. BSOLO: Ghost of Lion Castle, M1: Blizzard Pass, XSOLO: Lathan's Gold, and CM7: Quest for the Snow Pearls... In BSOLO, you start in the village of Sarsdell. Follow the Streel east for six days, and then hike north for two, and you can see Lion Castle. Unfortunately... I can't figure out where Sarsdell or Lion Castle would be. In the tavern, the barmaid exclaims "Why, I see warlocks, wizards, and sorcerers pass through here every day, and not one of them will go near that Lion castle.", so I'm guessing it's in Glantri... Module M1 is an "Invisible Ink Module"; that is, some of the entries are hidden until you use a special yellow pen on them. To my horror, I discovered that not only are most of the entries in my module still invisible.. but I've lost the pen! If anybody has the module, and willing to type/scan, I'll try to prove that I /do/ own a copy of the module.. :) XSOLO describes a few places in Specularum, and details most of the islands south of Ierendi and Minrothad. It took me a while, but I finally managed to make a map of them, available upon request.. :) One pet peeve of mine is that some of the modules are in a specific time (ie, X2: 979 AC, X13: 1150 AC), but others are scattered across the decades. For example, the lands in X6: Quagmire and X9: The Savage Coast are /quite/ different from those given in Champions of Mystara and Red Steel, even though they're in the same geographical location... :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-obsessive ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #151 ***************************** From ???@??? Mon Jul 08 11:04:06 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA21908; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:13:28 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00923 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:44:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:44:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199607072144.QAA00923@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #152 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a6c67bb0ba058bf5b61cde346ca836c0 mystara-digest Sunday, 7 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 152 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:38:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules In a message dated 96-07-07 00:41:59 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: << One pet peeve of mine is that some of the modules are in a specific time (ie, X2: 979 AC, X13: 1150 AC), but others are scattered across the decades. >> One interesting point you will note is that all of the Gazetteers assume that module X13 ("Red Arrow, Black Shield") is set a century or more after 1000 AC -- but the events of _Wrath of the Immortals_ make the events of that module impossible at any point after the events covered in that boxed set. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sun Jul 7 06:49:41 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sun, 7 Jul 96 02:49 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA28176 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:54:33 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA28090 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:39:20 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA22964 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:37:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA02768 for mystara-l@io.com; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:38:17 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:38:17 -0400 Message-ID: <960707013817_571266366@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules Content-Length: 554 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-07 00:41:59 EDT, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: << One pet peeve of mine is that some of the modules are in a specific time (ie, X2: 979 AC, X13: 1150 AC), but others are scattered across the decades. >> One interesting point you will note is that all of the Gazetteers assume that module X13 ("Red Arrow, Black Shield") is set a century or more after 1000 AC -- but the events of _Wrath of the Immortals_ make the events of that module impossible at any point after the events covered in that boxed set. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 11:08:08 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules > One interesting point you will note is that all of the Gazetteers assume that > module X13 ("Red Arrow, Black Shield") is set a century or more after > 1000 AC -- but the events of _Wrath of the Immortals_ make the events > of that module impossible at any point after the events covered in that > boxed set. As I'm listing in my (updated RSN now, really! :) ) timeline... 1200 AC: Great War with the Master of the Desert Nomads. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X10, .] - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules I would love to see any information you have on the Sea of Dread region ... I think I may have played Lathan's Gold once as a player years ago but do not own and cannot remember much of it. "Follow the Streel East" would indicate that Sarsdell/Lion's Castle could only be in Ethengar, possibly along the Vestland border ... those names sound roughly Nordic. You might try an ordinary Highliter on your M1 entries, see what turns up ... not sure if that will work so try just one first. As for X6 and X9, (as well as X4 and X5 for that matter) I tend to treat them as simply ignoring rather than contradicting the source material for the surrounding areas. Travelling along the coast in X9, it makes sense that adventurers would encounter only tortles and a few Texeiran clerical outposts ... though the state of these does seem to indicate that this is far in the past, perhaps a few centuries back. I treat X6 as having happened a short time ago, and modify the Champions of Mystara source material to include another Yavi city and divinarch's tower at the location of Quagmire, sunk beneath the sea. I also have quite afew lizard men in the backwoods of Yavdlom, preying on humans when possible but keeping their heads down most of the time. The other cities, etc., I just modify the module or omit. As regards X4, it ignores the existence of the entire nation of Sind! The tiny village of Pramayama is obviously the only reference that is important for the plot; if one wanted to run it in a modern Mystara campaign, it would be simple to use the more detailed source material where necessary, perhaps even having the players pass through a Sindian uprising against the Huleans. btw, what are the general thoughts of those on this list on the "canon" placement of X4-X5-X10 in the time sequence? m@2 On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > While looking through my old modules the other day, I found some of the > solo modules.. BSOLO: Ghost of Lion Castle, M1: Blizzard Pass, XSOLO: > Lathan's Gold, and CM7: Quest for the Snow Pearls... > > In BSOLO, you start in the village of Sarsdell. Follow the Streel east > for six days, and then hike north for two, and you can see Lion Castle. > Unfortunately... I can't figure out where Sarsdell or Lion Castle would > be. In the tavern, the barmaid exclaims "Why, I see warlocks, wizards, and > sorcerers pass through here every day, and not one of them will go near > that Lion castle.", so I'm guessing it's in Glantri... > > Module M1 is an "Invisible Ink Module"; that is, some of the entries are > hidden until you use a special yellow pen on them. To my horror, I > discovered that not only are most of the entries in my module still > invisible.. but I've lost the pen! If anybody has the module, and willing > to type/scan, I'll try to prove that I /do/ own a copy of the module.. :) > > XSOLO describes a few places in Specularum, and details most of the > islands south of Ierendi and Minrothad. It took me a while, but I finally > managed to make a map of them, available upon request.. :) > > One pet peeve of mine is that some of the modules are in a specific time > (ie, X2: 979 AC, X13: 1150 AC), but others are scattered across the > decades. For example, the lands in X6: Quagmire and X9: The Savage Coast > are /quite/ different from those given in Champions of Mystara and Red > Steel, even though they're in the same geographical location... :) > > -- > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca > aka the Mystara-obsessive > > ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 13:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > One interesting point you will note is that all of the Gazetteers assume that > > module X13 ("Red Arrow, Black Shield") is set a century or more after > > 1000 AC -- but the events of _Wrath of the Immortals_ make the events > > of that module impossible at any point after the events covered in that > > boxed set. > > As I'm listing in my (updated RSN now, really! :) ) timeline... > > 1200 AC: Great War with the Master of the Desert > Nomads. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline that is now unlikely > to take place. See adventure D&D module X10, Shield>.] My assumption is that the idea for WotI wasn't even a glimmer in anyone's eye when the Gazetteers were written, saying that the events of X4, X5, and X10 occur in the far future (circa 1200 AC). As it says in WotI, though, it would be very convenient to use X10 as part of a WotI campaign in accordance with the Master's attack. I think that when the Gazetteers were written, designers didn't like the idea of such incredible changes and chaos taking place so soon after AC1000, because all of the material in the Gazetteers would theoretically need to be revised to account for them, and they'd have to write pre- and post- X4,5,10 material in each Gazetteer, which would be a great hassle. Easier, then, to shift it into the future so that the material presented would be up to date and relevant longer. With WotI, though, the idea to keep the geopolitics of Mystara stable was discarded in favor of shaking things up (something I quite liked, sort of adding another dimension (time) to the somewhat frozen-in-time perspectives of the GAZ series). For my purposes, X4,5, and 10 reflect campaign events that take place in the first decade of the millenium, since I think they work well with WotI. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Sun, 7 Jul 96 13:29:11 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules Matthew Levy writes: > You might try an ordinary Highliter on your M1 entries, see what turns up > ... not sure if that will work so try just one first. As for X6 and X9, No NO NO NO NO! You will seriously screw it up! Go to Toys R Us or some othre toy store. Most of them stock tons of game books, usually meant to keep kids occupied on long car trips, that use just such a marker. Just pick up a small one and use the marker, Unless tha module used some bizarre formula of ink, it should work fine. Later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Lelend Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 13:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Matthew Levy wrote: > ... not sure if that will work so try just one first. As for X6 and X9, > (as well as X4 and X5 for that matter) I tend to treat them as simply > ignoring rather than contradicting the source material for the > surrounding areas. Travelling along the coast in X9, it makes sense that > adventurers would encounter only tortles and a few Texeiran clerical > outposts ... though the state of these does seem to indicate that this is > far in the past, perhaps a few centuries back. I treat X6 as having > happened a short time ago, and modify the Champions of Mystara source > material to include another Yavi city and divinarch's tower at the > location of Quagmire, sunk beneath the sea. I also have quite afew I think CoM gives suggested time placements for X6 and X9 placing them in the past much as you thought to, although I think it suggests X6 happened much further back. 600 BC, I think (?). > btw, what are the general thoughts of those on this list on the "canon" > placement of X4-X5-X10 in the time sequence? As I suggested in a previous post, I think that there are now two possible 'canon' placements, so to speak. One being around 1200 AC and the other integrated into the events of WotI. I prefer the latter, myself. - --Azure ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 13:55:50 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Modules (was: Solo modules) > I would love to see any information you have on the Sea of Dread region Alright, then.. I'll figure out a way to place and name the various islands using ASCII-text. :) > "Follow the Streel East" > would indicate that Sarsdell/Lion's Castle could only be in Ethengar, > possibly along the Vestland border ... those names sound roughly Nordic. True, but Vestland is already to the east of Ethengar; Sarsdell would have to be on the other side, near Glantri or Darokin. > You might try an ordinary Highliter on your M1 entries, see what turns up > ... not sure if that will work so try just one first. I already did; no-go. > Travelling along the coast in X9, it makes sense that > adventurers would encounter only tortles and a few Texeiran clerical > outposts ... though the state of these does seem to indicate that this is > far in the past, perhaps a few centuries back. From what I recall, pre-900 AC, at least. > I treat X6 as having > happened a short time ago, and modify the Champions of Mystara source > material I haven't looked at the actual module for a while, but from what I recall this is exactly what I did myself. > As regards X4, it ignores the existence > of the entire nation of Sind! The tiny village of Pramayama is obviously > the only reference that is important for the plot Hm.. perhaps in the 'variant 1200 AC' timeline, Pramayama is all that's left of Sind. ;) > btw, what are the general thoughts of those on this list on the "canon" > placement of X4-X5-X10 in the time sequence? I (unfortunately) still don't have X4-X5, so can't comment.. but according to the Shadow Elves e-Gazetteer on MPGN: 1200 AC: Great War with the Master of the Desert Nomads. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X10, .] - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fanatic ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 14:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules Daniel Boese pontificated: > From ???@??? Mon Jul 08 11:04:06 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA21908; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:13:28 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00923 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:44:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:44:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199607072144.QAA00923@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #152 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a6c67bb0ba058bf5b61cde346ca836c0 > Module M1 is an "Invisible Ink Module"; that is, some of the entries are > hidden until you use a special yellow pen on them. To my horror, I > discovered that not only are most of the entries in my module still > invisible.. but I've lost the pen! If anybody has the module, and willing > to type/scan, I'll try to prove that I /do/ own a copy of the module.. :) I believe that pen is the same as other invisible ink game books. I haven't seen them in a long time, I got my last one when I was still in Jr. High from Woolworth. But I believe place like KayBee Toys, etc. still have some of those books around. Sometime you can find them in airport bookstore too. > XSOLO describes a few places in Specularum, and details most of the > islands south of Ierendi and Minrothad. It took me a while, but I finally > managed to make a map of them, available upon request.. :) Anyway you can scan them and post it? > > One pet peeve of mine is that some of the modules are in a specific time > (ie, X2: 979 AC, X13: 1150 AC), but others are scattered across the > decades. For example, the lands in X6: Quagmire and X9: The Savage Coast > are /quite/ different from those given in Champions of Mystara and Red > Steel, even though they're in the same geographical location... :) > Don't have X9, but X6 was retro-placed to a long time in the past, something like 400 BC. But hey, time travel seems to be common enough to pop up here and there in Mystara. BTW with is X13? One of the problem I have with modules is that alot of CM and M series module are unplayable now due to the disapperance of Alphatia. I guess maybe they can be placed farther down the time line when New Alphatia became more stabled and/or communication and travel with the HW Alphatia became a common place. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 14:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] X10 - Red Arrow, Black Shield. Matthew Levy pontificated: > > btw, what are the general thoughts of those on this list on the "canon" > placement of X4-X5-X10 in the time sequence? > Well, there are 4 options for X10. 1-Never happended, 2-Before WotI, 3-During WotI, 4-After WotI. Now, option 1 is too easy a solution:) option 4 will be very difficult to rewrite the module, as the political enviroment will be totally different from those described in the module. I think during WotI is where TSR staff re-re-place it into (from 1000AC to 1200AC to ~1004AC). and I think the war described in WotI is vague enough for that with some work. Place it before WotI is something I haven't heard anyone talked about yet, but I think it would also be possible. The module can be played pretty much as is, and what ever changes caused by the module will be changed again by the event descibed by WotI and return back to follow the general timeline. It could also explain why some of the hidden plots in WotI successed so easily, such as the Shadow Elves able to conqure Alfheim with out much resistance due to the weaken state of Alfheim and Darokin. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:38:49 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules > > Module M1 is an "Invisible Ink Module"; but I've lost the pen! > I believe that pen is the same as other invisible ink game books. I > haven't seen them in a long time, I got my last one when I was still > in Jr. High from Woolworth. But I believe place like KayBee Toys, etc. > still have some of those books around. Sometime you can find them > in airport bookstore too. I've tried using pens from other products, but either they don't work after a few years, or TSR used a different type of invisible ink... None have worked. > > XSOLO describes a few places in Specularum, and details most of the > > islands south of Ierendi and Minrothad. It took me a while, but I finally > > managed to make a map of them, available upon request.. :) > Anyway you can scan them and post it? No scanner.. I'll do an 'ASCII-map' and post it to the list within a few days. > Don't have X9, but X6 was retro-placed to a long time in the past, > something like 400 BC. But hey, time travel seems to be common enough > to pop up here and there in Mystara. Hm.. probably sometime between 500 and 400 BC, while the people of Yavdlom were over on the Arm of the Immortals. Can you give a source for the retcon? > BTW with is X13? 1150 AC: The deaths of High King Maramet of Vestland and his sole heir throw the nation into a political turmoil. The Sorona, the enchanted crown of Vestland, is sought by various factions hoping to claim the throne. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-compulsive ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:06:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules In a message dated 96-07-07 15:10:56 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << One of the problem I have with modules is that alot of CM and M series module are unplayable now due to the disapperance of Alphatia. I guess maybe they can be placed farther down the time line when New Alphatia became more stabled and/or communication and travel with the HW Alphatia became a common place. >> As originally written, all of the modules involving Norwold would have to be set between 992 AC (when Eriadna gave Norwold to her son Ericall) and 1004 AC (when events in Thyatis preclude a Thyatian invasion of Norwold for the next several years, and the start of the was two years later makes negotiations over the status of the Isle of Dawn equally impossible). Setting these modules several years later would require a few adjustments, but nothing that a clever DM could not handle. Both Thyatis and the outside world remnants of Alphatia have been weakened, but both can still exert a lot of power. Thincol is dead, but Eusebius or one of his successors could replace him. One key question is who controls Norwold. By 1013 AC, the Heldanners have conquered most of that nation, and (unlike Alphatia) they value that territory too highly to give it away as Eriadna did. So, if you want to restore the pre-Wrath situation in Norwold, it is necessary for the Alphatians to reconquer Norwold and restore Ericall to full control of the country. But this would make Ericall more indebted to Alphatia than he should be for those modules. Better yet, have the Heldannic leader in charge of the country swear fealty to Alphatia to prevent Norwold from being overrun by the Alphatians. This leader would retain about as much freedom of action as Ericall did in the modules, and would be facing an even more interesting situation to boot. In addition to fending off the competing claims of Thyatis and Alphatia, he would also have to contend with the Heldannic overlord whom he betrayed. Given the amount of time needed for Mystara to settle down from the events of 1004-1013 AC, this scenario could probably be played out at any time from 1020 AC on. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sun Jul 7 20:57:10 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sun, 7 Jul 96 16:57 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00654 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:24:29 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA00644 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:14:34 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13999 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:06:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00759 for mystara-l@io.com; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:06:28 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:06:28 -0400 Message-ID: <960707160626_351380167@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules Content-Length: 2179 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-07 15:10:56 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << One of the problem I have with modules is that alot of CM and M series module are unplayable now due to the disapperance of Alphatia. I guess maybe they can be placed farther down the time line when New Alphatia became more stabled and/or communication and travel with the HW Alphatia became a common place. >> As originally written, all of the modules involving Norwold would have to be set between 992 AC (when Eriadna gave Norwold to her son Ericall) and 1004 AC (when events in Thyatis preclude a Thyatian invasion of Norwold for the next several years, and the start of the was two years later makes negotiations over the status of the Isle of Dawn equally impossible). Setting these modules several years later would require a few adjustments, but nothing that a clever DM could not handle. Both Thyatis and the outside world remnants of Alphatia have been weakened, but both can still exert a lot of power. Thincol is dead, but Eusebius or one of his successors could replace him. One key question is who controls Norwold. By 1013 AC, the Heldanners have conquered most of that nation, and (unlike Alphatia) they value that territory too highly to give it away as Eriadna did. So, if you want to restore the pre-Wrath situation in Norwold, it is necessary for the Alphatians to reconquer Norwold and restore Ericall to full control of the country. But this would make Ericall more indebted to Alphatia than he should be for those modules. Better yet, have the Heldannic leader in charge of the country swear fealty to Alphatia to prevent Norwold from being overrun by the Alphatians. This leader would retain about as much freedom of action as Ericall did in the modules, and would be facing an even more interesting situation to boot. In addition to fending off the competing claims of Thyatis and Alphatia, he would also have to contend with the Heldannic overlord whom he betrayed. Given the amount of time needed for Mystara to settle down from the events of 1004-1013 AC, this scenario could probably be played out at any time from 1020 AC on. ------------------------------ From: David Keyser Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 14:14:35 -0700 Subject: [Mystara] update on arcade games set in Mystara I have had a chance to play the arcade game Shadow over Mystara, and here is what I have found: The events Shadow over Mystara take place 2 years after the events in the arcade game Tower of Doom. The main villain in Shadow over Mystara is none other than the dragon Synn. In Tower of Doom, Darokin was being overrun by bands of monsters being controlled by some evil force. The force turned out to be a lich called Deimos with a tower in the Broken Lands, and Deimos is destroyed at the end of the game. In Shadow over Mystara, the PCs learn that Deimos was a pawn of Synn, and they travel from Darokin to Glantri and begin battling her hordes there. They first enter the town of Trintan, which is being attacked by goblins and there war machines. They later meet with Prince Malachie(the werewolf) and start to track down the home base of Synn. There is a lot more detail I can add, and I don't even know the whole story, as the game has numerous multiple paths which can be taken, and I have not played them all. But to some up, Synn has made an alliance with at least one faction of shadow elves, and the characters travel over the forest of Aengmor on a flying ship. They enter underground, and eventually they find Synn's floating castle, most likely at the spot halfway between the Known World and the Hollow World. Synn has 4 masters working for her, including a Nagpa, a (ghost?) and a demon. In the final battle, Synn unleashes something she calls a fiend, but its relative size makes it look like it could be a tarrasque, but as Synn is slain by the characters, and the creature starts to dig its way out to the surface, Prince Malachie and 6 air ships appear and bomb and strafe the thing into oblivion. With these events, I can set the Tower of Doom events somewhere between 1013- 1015 AC, thus placing Shadow over Mystara at 1015 - 1017 AC. Synn's alter ego as Dolores(I think) is not mentioned, as this type of game is not meant to support court intrigue, just action. But Synn portrays herself most of the time as a blond sorceress, and the PCs do not know she is a dragon until the end. I am tempted to document the sequences and plot line as much as possible, but it might be easier to get the information from TSR itself. I forget who asked the question, but the first time I saw Tower of Doom was the summer of 1994, and I believe Shadow over Mystara has been out for less than 6 months. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #152 ***************************** mystara-digest Monday, 8 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 153 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keyser Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 14:30:45 -0700 Subject: [Mystara] time setting of old modules > One pet peeve of mine is that some of the modules are in a specific time > (ie, X2: 979 AC, X13: 1150 AC), but others are scattered across the > decades. For example, the lands in X6: Quagmire and X9: The Savage Coast > are /quite/ different from those given in Champions of Mystara and Red > Steel, even though they're in the same geographical location... :) In the first PWA, it mentions that the King Harald of Vestland was known as (Telemon?) 25 years ago. I don't have X13 in front of me, but I believe that PWA suggests that X13 took place in the year 975AC. This makes more sense, as the Heldannic Knights are not mentioned in X13, and they would not be fully in control of the country back then. Now X2 does not have to be set in 979 AC, it could be a few years earlier. 979 is the year Entienne reappeared, but if he were rescued in 975, you could say he took a few years to put his family affairs in order before stepping back onto the scene in Glantri. For X6, I believe Champions of Mystara suggested 400 AC, when most of the Yav people had followed Yav to another place. X9 would have to be pushed back to 2700 BC or earlier, before the Red Curse even appeared. Here is a way to string most of the adventures together, assuming you start in 1000 AC: PCs play the modules DA1 - DA4, finding the inn which takes them back through time. Remember that no one could control exactly what year you will go to travelling through the gates. When the PCs are finished in Blackmoor, and want to go home, they try doing some time jumps to try to go back to their own time, and leave when the surroundings look similar to what they had left. They leave the inn(very hard to do, I know), and find themselves to be at time 974 or 975 AC. The PCs can now play X13 if they go to Vestland, or X2 if they go to Glantri. Now the mists which envelop them in X2 can be considered outside of time, and there is a room in the dungeon of the castle where the PCs are locked in and a magical pollen is pumped into the room. They fall asleep and dream, and the dreams have a chance of becoming real. A character could wake up and find himself in the middle of module X6 and X9, play through, and wake up again back in X2. Anyway, at the end of X2, Entienne can use a wish from his ring to transport the PCs back to their own time. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules > > Don't have X9, but X6 was retro-placed to a long time in the past, > > something like 400 BC. But hey, time travel seems to be common enough > > to pop up here and there in Mystara. > Hm.. probably sometime between 500 and 400 BC, while the people of > Yavdlom were over on the Arm of the Immortals. Can you give a source for > the retcon? > Can't remember, but it is definatly from TSR. My best guess will be either Red Steel or Champions of Mystara, in sections that talks about what modules was published for those regions. It also might be in a Dragon when Princess Ark traveled to Arm of Immortals. Sorry I can't be much more help. But they push the module back far enough that no one has settled there yet. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:35:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] time setting of old modules In a message dated 96-07-07 18:38:55 EDT, davidk@Synopsys.COM (David Keyser) writes: << X9 would have to be pushed back to 2700 BC or earlier, before the Red Curse even appeared. >> Module X9 does not have to be set anywhere near that far back. Prior to 1009 AC, only a few parts of the Savage Baronies are affected by the Red Curse. The Savage Baronies are mostly off the edge of the map in this module, and they have so few inhabitants that it is unlikely that the player characters will run into any of the Afflicted -- or, worse yet, become "Afflicted" themselves. The key dates for this module would probably be about 500 AC, when colonists from the Known World first reach this area, and 900 AC, when the Savage Coast became "civilized". Module XP would work nicely anywhere within that period of about 400 years. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Mon Jul 8 04:27:35 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Mon, 8 Jul 96 00:27 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA02511 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:54:32 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA02472 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:40:01 -0500 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA01038 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:34:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA04941 for mystara-l@io.com; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:35:37 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:35:37 -0400 Message-ID: <960707233533_232792571@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] time setting of old modules Content-Length: 829 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-07 18:38:55 EDT, davidk@Synopsys.COM (David Keyser) writes: << X9 would have to be pushed back to 2700 BC or earlier, before the Red Curse even appeared. >> Module X9 does not have to be set anywhere near that far back. Prior to 1009 AC, only a few parts of the Savage Baronies are affected by the Red Curse. The Savage Baronies are mostly off the edge of the map in this module, and they have so few inhabitants that it is unlikely that the player characters will run into any of the Afflicted -- or, worse yet, become "Afflicted" themselves. The key dates for this module would probably be about 500 AC, when colonists from the Known World first reach this area, and 900 AC, when the Savage Coast became "civilized". Module XP would work nicely anywhere within that period of about 400 years. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 04:04:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules On Sun, 7 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > As originally written, all of the modules involving Norwold would have to be > set between 992 AC (when Eriadna gave Norwold to her son Ericall) and > 1004 AC (when events in Thyatis preclude a Thyatian invasion of Norwold > for the next several years, and the start of the was two years later makes > negotiations over the status of the Isle of Dawn equally impossible). I always felt that Norwold got the short-shrift during the WoTI. There's a throwaway reference to 'Eiryndul causing mischief and keeping Norwold occupied' or something, and that's all we hear of that nation until the PWA's. My feeling is that this northern nation of Alphatia's is a perfect staging area ffor their assault on Glantri, and that they would be foolish not to make use of it as such. (Really, through Norwold, they by pass the Thyatians. Either they deal with the Heldanners, make an alliance with the Ethengars against the Glantrians, and take Glantri, or they could bypass the Heldanners entirely, and go north through Denagoth/Wendar into Glantri. Of course the Thyatians would likely push north through Ylari to block them... retaking some of their Ylari territories along the way- which I'm sure they wouldn't mind... unless Alphatia launched a simultaneous attack against Thyatis to keep them occupied... and also to reclaim that empire for themselves, which they likely wouldn't mind... many possibilities...) With a bit of tweaking, all of these modules could be done during the WoTI time period. Replacing some of the Thyatians with Heldanners, Ostlander allies of the Thyatians, etc. Gives your high level PC's a lot to do during this time. Of course, Norwold IMCWorld was given to one of my brother's PC's many years ago when Ericall died, and he took the opportunity of the war (as did so many other rulers) to declare his independence... > One key question is who controls Norwold. By 1013 AC, the Heldanners > have conquered most of that nation, and (unlike Alphatia) they value that > territory too highly to give it away as Eriadna did. So, if you want to > restore > the pre-Wrath situation in Norwold, it is necessary for the Alphatians to > reconquer Norwold and restore Ericall to full control of the country. But > this would make Ericall more indebted to Alphatia than he should be for > those modules. IIRC, Ericall is still in control of much of Norwold- Alpha and any territory north of Oceansend, and has the allegiance of the nonhumans of the region (the halflings of Leeha, the elves, the Diabolus community- remember them?- and any dwarves or barbarians, presumably would aid against an invasion) as well as any PC dominions that might be here. The Heldanners only took Landfall (good riddance to it) and Oceansend. ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] time setting of old modules bravo! My rule of thumb on these things is that plausible timelines can always be invented after the fact .... it is a fantasy game after all. Surf the temporospatial multiverse, and have fun. m@2 On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, David Keyser wrote: > > One pet peeve of mine is that some of the modules are in a specific time > > (ie, X2: 979 AC, X13: 1150 AC), but others are scattered across the > > decades. For example, the lands in X6: Quagmire and X9: The Savage Coast > > are /quite/ different from those given in Champions of Mystara and Red > > Steel, even though they're in the same geographical location... :) > > In the first PWA, it mentions that the King Harald of Vestland was known as > (Telemon?) 25 years ago. I don't have X13 in front of me, but I believe that > PWA suggests that X13 took place in the year 975AC. This makes more sense, as > the Heldannic Knights are not mentioned in X13, and they would not be fully in > control of the country back then. > > Now X2 does not have to be set in 979 AC, it could be a few years earlier. > 979 is the year Entienne reappeared, but if he were rescued in 975, you could > say he took a few years to put his family affairs in order before stepping back > onto the scene in Glantri. > > For X6, I believe Champions of Mystara suggested 400 AC, when most of the Yav > people had followed Yav to another place. > > X9 would have to be pushed back to 2700 BC or earlier, before the Red Curse > even appeared. > > Here is a way to string most of the adventures together, assuming you start in > 1000 AC: > > PCs play the modules DA1 - DA4, finding the inn which takes them back through > time. Remember that no one could control exactly what year you will go to > travelling through the gates. > > When the PCs are finished in Blackmoor, and want to go home, they try doing some > time jumps to try to go back to their own time, and leave when the surroundings > look similar to what they had left. > > They leave the inn(very hard to do, I know), and find themselves to be at time > 974 or 975 AC. The PCs can now play X13 if they go to Vestland, or X2 if they > go to Glantri. Now the mists which envelop them in X2 can be considered outside > of time, and there is a room in the dungeon of the castle where the > PCs are locked in and a magical pollen is pumped into the room. They fall > asleep and dream, and the dreams have a chance of becoming real. A character > could wake up and find himself in the middle of module X6 and X9, play through, > and wake up again back in X2. > > Anyway, at the end of X2, Entienne can use a wish from his ring to transport the > PCs back to their own time. > > Dave Keyser > ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:50:51 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Norwold Cthulhudrew wrote: > I always felt that Norwold got the short-shrift during the WoTI. There's > a throwaway reference to 'Eiryndul causing mischief and keeping Norwold > occupied' or something, and that's all we hear of that nation until the > PWA's. > > My feeling is that this northern nation of Alphatia's is a perfect > staging area ffor their assault on Glantri, and that they would be > foolish not to make use of it as such. (Really, through Norwold, they by > pass the Thyatians. Either they deal with the Heldanners, make an > alliance with the Ethengars against the Glantrians, and take Glantri, or > they could bypass the Heldanners entirely, and go north through > Denagoth/Wendar into Glantri. Of course the Thyatians would likely push > north through Ylari to block them... retaking some of their Ylari > territories along the way- which I'm sure they wouldn't mind... unless > Alphatia launched a simultaneous attack against Thyatis to keep them > occupied... and also to reclaim that empire for themselves, which they > likely wouldn't mind... many possibilities...) From ???@??? Wed Jul 10 11:07:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA27693; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:02:50 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA10575 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:49:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:49:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199607090449.XAA10575@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #153 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: bd0ff5155863a446f99126a42d0bc209 I'm not sure, but I got the impression from the Dragonlord series that the Nation of the Dragons' capital was west of Norwold. They have made clear at that time that they didn't want any humans near their city and Alphatia certainly remembers it. So, Alphatia prefered to crush Thyatis than to face an army of dragons. Seemed wise to me. This way all Norwold could do was to help with troops, not as an invasion route. Andre Martins acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:30:14 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > In the Almanacs there's mention to "Alfheim Avengers": a group of young > surface elves that wants to reconquest the Canolbarth forest in a few weeks; > but there's nothing about Trees of Life. > I agree on Alfheim elves leaving their precious Trees in a safe place in > Darokin with a strong honor guard and taking with them only healthy cuttings > as said in WotI. But remember that no two ToL can exist within 50 miles > (i.e. about 6 hex) of one another. I didn't know about the space limitation. Unfortunatelly, I don't have the Alfheim Gazeteer, so every suposition I make about it is based on other sources and my common sense. Anyway, it has also occurred to me that Ilsundal was planning to reconquer Alfheim sooner. I don't think the Immortals knew that Alphatia would sink, so he ageerd that his followers should leave Alfheim because alphatian's help would make it sure they would recover it in less than four years. That was not what happened, and in 1010 AC we have a desperate Ilsundal, looking for another ways of recoonquering the land. > Putting together what your ideas and what Herve sent me in private e-mail i > Would say that: some of the Treekepers (those of Clans Grunalf and Feadiel > above all) begin to work on the trasportation ritual soon, so they're able > to take their tree to a safe haven in Darokin, while other Clans (e.g. > Mealidil) must leave their Trees in Alfheim disguised as normal dying trees > and will have to recover them later, maybe making an agreement with Shadow > Elves. > Remember: Shadow Elves aren't evil, they only need a colony above ground, > thus they've no interest in slaying "friendly" Alfheim elves and Trees of > Life. There's not the orcish "love of destruction" in Shadow Elves' blood. I know it, but I don't think you would be able to convince a single Alfheim Elf about it. Their actions should depend on what they believe to be the truth, not on the real facts. So, as they see it, the Shadow Elves will cut their precious Trees of Life as soon as they find it, so they must hurry. Andre Martins acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:08:46 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion > > I will be working in future > > events and I would like to know what most people here think about it. > > I'd appreciate it if you'd email me (or post generally) what you come up > with.. whether 'canon' or not, I'd enjoy reading what you invent. > So here it goes : > Your "world war" scenario is quite interesting. However.... > > >From what I have read in the Poor Wizard's Almanacs, most nations of > the Known World are too shocked from the last war or too involved in their > own problems to want to get into another major war this soon after "Wrath". > Certainly Darokin and its allies (Five Shires, Karameikos, and Rockhome) > will seek to maintain peace as long as possible. Ethengar and Thyatis are > eager for war.... elsewhere! The almanacs, unfortunately, stopped short > of describing the turmoil that will take place in Glantri when a wiser Rad > returns and seeks to deal with Synn. > > Also, the Shadow Elves themselves may have little stomach for further > warfare. After all, they are now having to deal with the consequences > of their invasion. They sent messengers to Norwold to seek help in > saving their trees from death, and they may actually be starting to learn > diplomacy from their neighbors in Darokin (who politely rejected their> threats and countered with sincere offers to negotiate). > > The Alfheim Elves may well want to re-invade Alfheim, but they could have > a tough time without more help than they are likely to get from the nearby > humans. > > But, as many difficulties as I see with that scenario, it does have > fascinating > possibilities. Who knows, perhaps you may enhance your plot by coming > up with clever ways to overcome the reluctance of many nations to get into > another war? Let me see. I can't see how Darokin or the Shires would enter in this war if not provoked. But Karameikos has the majority of the Alfheim elves, and when the war breaks, the elves will certainly hire karameikan mercenaries and try every political manuever to convince the king. Meanwhile, a growing cult of Halav will be preaching the time for the conquest has come, that Traladara shall rise again, under Stefan Karameikos', Halav's reincarnation, rule. I am sure the elves have sent their teachers to the School of Magecraft in Krakatos when it was opened, just offering their help and making sure the king's wizards need them. So Stefan would have a hard time trying to stop his country for entering the war. Rockhome would be more difficult. Rumors of gold, mithril and gems in the shadow elves tunnels under Alfheim (that the elves would allow them to explore, ordered so by Ilsundal, if they cooperate in an unprecedent alliance), added to a underground dwarven massacre (Brotherhood of Shadow) blamed on the shadow elves would be a nice start. Ylaruam is the easiest. It occurred to me soon after posting my story. They dream of the desert garden and it just happens that the Alfheim elves know how to control the rain over a whole country, that's how Alfheim was created. Ilsundal has certainly contacted Al Kalim, and this might be the time of the first appearing of a mortal Al Kalim in his Dynast Path in the "future", to make things funnier. But that will occurr only when the war breaks. Norwold has enough problems with the Heldannic Knights by now, but that leaves the ethengarians free of their concern with their northern border and able to invade Glantri. There was mention in the gazeteer that the only reason the several khanates would stay united under the Khan would be to conquer other lands, so he has to start a war soon. They have always hated glantrians and have infiltrated their society, specially after the ban on clerics was raised, so this attack is a natural move. The broken lands will enter in any war we want easily. And let's not forget all the inhuman comunities scattered in the Known World that might believe the national boundaries are very different from those the human nations claim. TSR has forgotten them in the WotI, but we shouldn't. That will add to the mess :) By now, Hell could have infiltrated the DDC (Darokin Diplomatic Corps) with her new gods. Balthac was not the only one she created, the WotI mention she has spread several ones, he was simply the only one we know about. In my campaign (1004), I have a cleric of Yuri, an old traladaran vampire slayer hero, who is, in fact the first cleric of his order. He knows he follows an evil god (though not which one) and he was ordered to create a new church in Karameikos. His companions believe him to be a good guy, and he behaves as one, but he has far-reaching plans... The campaign is beggining, they are moving now to clean a place where they will find some lightining zombies as their first adventure, and it will be slow, I am playing it by email, but it will be fun. So the Brotherhood would be in position to influence darokinian government, as well as some others, Northern Reaches, maybe, but I will have to reread that gazeteer and see how I can get them into it and I feel I won't have the time right now. Anyway, I would try to have them at the shadow elves side, there are too many countries at the other side to be a difficult and long war. But consistency will be my first concern. That would leaves us with two blocks: 1-Alfheim(in exile), Ylaruam, Ethengar, Rockhome, Karameikos 2-Shadow Elves, Glantri, maybe Broken Lands (Kol) And, certainly, thyatian agents would be eager to destroy the Western Defense League. What about it? - --- That was it. I am having more ideas, the Schatenallfen would side with the Shadow Elves as I said in a previous post. I will be sending them soon. Andre Martins acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 19:59:22 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics Peter Donald writes: > >> > Their relationship is *EXTREMELY* obvious. I have both sets of > >> >rules and they are almost identical in abilities. It would be ludicrous > >> >to say that TSR didn't base the Mystic on the Monk. > >> Ludicrous but true (assuming you're referring to the AD&D1 Monk). > > Take a look at the mechanics governing the AD&D1 Monk. Good. Now > >take a look at the mechanics governing the OD&D Mystic. Notice something? > Yep. > >Of course you do! You cannot deny it. > > I don't. > >The Mystic *WAS* based on the Monk. You STILL deny it? > Note carefully the proviso in brackets above (re: AD&D1 Monk). Then > hit a used game auction and dig through the original (not Basic Set et > al - original) D&D material; you're probably looking for Eldritch > Wizardry, although it might be the original Blackmoor supplement - it's > been a *long* time. Then get back to me. Why? For what purpose? It has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. I'm talking about the Monk from AD&D1 and the Mystic from OD&D ( i.e. red box, blue box etc.. black box.. ). Tell me what relevance the real old stuff has to this? > >Take another look at both classes. You can hold to idealism all you want, > >but the facts are plain and simple and laid out for you to see. > 'Tain't idealism - it's a sense of history. It is idealism. You refuse to consider the fact that TSR could have stripped the religious side from the Monk when they turned it into the Mystic because of TSR's moralizing. Is it possible for you to open mindedly consider other posibilities? I've considered your solutions, but I still think that the answer I proposed is the most LIKELY, so it is the one I believe. Why do you insist on believing that TSR is such a perfect gaming company that they wouldn't bow to market pressure? ALL companies do, no matter what they make. > > The way AD&D Monk's have been used seems to be in a religious > >manner, they were even required to tithe to RELIGIOUS institutions. > As I said - the line between religious & philosophical is pretty thin. Any line can be drawn as thin or as thick as you like it. It depends on your personal definition. I'm pretty sure everyone on this list is intelligent enough to know what I mean by "religious" i.e. having to do with worshiping a "higher" power and all that goes with it. I don't know about anyone else, but the AD&D1 Monk seemed to have a *LOT* more religious a feel to it than the OD&D Mystic did. But all this is pointless. You are being dogmatic and argumentative just for the sake of arguing. You haven't listened to a word I've said or even tried to understand what the meaning of what I was saying was, you purposely mis-interpret it. Don't bother responding to this. I was hoping to have a rational discussion, but that seems to be beyond you. I'm sorry. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Peggy Ehl Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 18:06:39 -0600 Subject: [Mystara] Swamped Could you please take me off this list, my mail box is getting out of hand. thanks ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S pontificated: > Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > > Remember: Shadow Elves aren't evil, they only need a colony above ground, > > thus they've no interest in slaying "friendly" Alfheim elves and Trees of > > Life. There's not the orcish "love of destruction" in Shadow Elves' blood. > > I know it, but I don't think you would be able to convince a single > Alfheim Elf about it. Their actions should depend on what they believe > to be the truth, not on the real facts. So, as they see it, the Shadow > Elves will cut their precious Trees of Life as soon as they find it, > so they must hurry. > Based on one article in Joshun's Almanic, some Alfheim Elves are start to see thing differently. My guess is both side have people want to negotiate for peace, but also have people wants to fight it out. The current situation in Isreal might be very similar to the situation between Alfheim and Shadow Elves. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #153 ***************************** From ???@??? Wed Jul 10 11:08:03 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA02577; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:37:02 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA11463 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:22:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:22:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199607090822.DAA11463@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #154 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 306385bc14858153b6a03db69c83da8f mystara-digest Tuesday, 9 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 154 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Donald" Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 01:29:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics On Mon, 8 Jul 96 19:59:22 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: [Apologies for the long quote] >Peter Donald writes: > >> >> > Their relationship is *EXTREMELY* obvious. I have both sets of >> >> >rules and they are almost identical in abilities. It would be ludicrous >> >> >to say that TSR didn't base the Mystic on the Monk. > >> >> Ludicrous but true (assuming you're referring to the AD&D1 Monk). > >> > Take a look at the mechanics governing the AD&D1 Monk. Good. Now >> >take a look at the mechanics governing the OD&D Mystic. Notice something? > >> Yep. > >> >Of course you do! You cannot deny it. >> >> I don't. > >> >The Mystic *WAS* based on the Monk. > > You STILL deny it? > >> Note carefully the proviso in brackets above (re: AD&D1 Monk). Then >> hit a used game auction and dig through the original (not Basic Set et >> al - original) D&D material; you're probably looking for Eldritch >> Wizardry, although it might be the original Blackmoor supplement - it's >> been a *long* time. Then get back to me. > > Why? For what purpose? To understand the point I'm trying to make instead of mindlessly flaming me for a variety of imagined sins, p'raps? To do something other than "[be] dogmatic and argumentative just for the sake of arguing." ? To "[listen] to a word I've said or even [try to] understand what the meaning of what I was saying was"? Less sarcastically, to follow the evolution of the class (no, the Mystic wasn't based on the A&D1 Monk; they were both based on the O-as-in-original-not-as-in-Blue-Box-et-al Monk). >It has absolutely nothing to do with the >discussion. It has everything to do with the history of the Monk as a character class. >I'm talking about the Monk from AD&D1 and the Mystic from OD&D >( i.e. red box, blue box etc.. black box.. ). Tell me what relevance the >real old stuff has to this? There - now I have. Happy? >> >Take another look at both classes. You can hold to idealism all you want, >> >but the facts are plain and simple and laid out for you to see. > >> 'Tain't idealism - it's a sense of history. > > It is idealism. Nope, it's a sense of history. >You refuse to consider the fact that TSR could >have stripped the religious side from the Monk when they turned it into >the Mystic because of TSR's moralizing. Not in the slightest, nor is that an argument I've ever made. Ever consider actually reading messages before replying? You'll look like less of an idiot if you do. >Why do you insist on believing that TSR is such a perfect >gaming company that they wouldn't bow to market pressure? I don't, quite frankly (on either count - they're far from perfect, and of *course* they'd bow to market pressure). >> > The way AD&D Monk's have been used seems to be in a religious >> >manner, they were even required to tithe to RELIGIOUS institutions. I don't have a 1st. ed. PH to hand, but as I recall the tithe was to their monasteries/orders, which aren't necessarily religious institutions in the sense you seem to be using the word ("having to do with worshipping a "higher" power and all that goes with it", as you put it below). >> As I said - the line between religious & philosophical is pretty thin. > > Any line can be drawn as thin or as thick as you like it. It >depends on your personal definition. I'm pretty sure everyone on this list >is intelligent enough to know what I mean by "religious" i.e. having to do >with worshiping a "higher" power and all that goes with it. If that's the definition of "religious" you want to run with, you've just torpedoed your own argument (that or shown your ignorance of the inspiration of the class. Possibly both). >I don't know >about anyone else, but the AD&D1 Monk seemed to have a *LOT* more >religious a feel to it than the OD&D Mystic did. It never did to me, frankly (not in the sense you're using "religious", anyway). ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 02:23:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules In a message dated 96-07-08 07:35:12 EDT, jsmill@imap1.asu.edu (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: << IIRC, Ericall is still in control of much of Norwold- Alpha and any territory north of Oceansend, and has the allegiance of the nonhumans of the region (the halflings of Leeha, the elves, the Diabolus community- remember them?- and any dwarves or barbarians, presumably would aid against an invasion) as well as any PC dominions that might be here. The Heldanners only took Landfall (good riddance to it) and Oceansend.>> All true -- but the Companion and Master level modules assume that Ericall has at least nominal control of all of Norwold. As of 1013 AC, Ericall has lost about half the country to the Heldanners, who show no sign of letting up in their advance towards Alpha. In order for those old modules to make any sort of sense, SOMEBODY has to be in control of the whole country. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Tue Jul 9 07:04:11 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 9 Jul 96 03:04 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA11031 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:32:25 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA10940 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:24:42 -0500 Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27798 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:24:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA05657 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 02:23:25 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 02:23:25 -0400 Message-ID: <960709022324_353088555@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Solo modules Content-Length: 913 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-08 07:35:12 EDT, jsmill@imap1.asu.edu (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: << IIRC, Ericall is still in control of much of Norwold- Alpha and any territory north of Oceansend, and has the allegiance of the nonhumans of the region (the halflings of Leeha, the elves, the Diabolus community- remember them?- and any dwarves or barbarians, presumably would aid against an invasion) as well as any PC dominions that might be here. The Heldanners only took Landfall (good riddance to it) and Oceansend.>> All true -- but the Companion and Master level modules assume that Ericall has at least nominal control of all of Norwold. As of 1013 AC, Ericall has lost about half the country to the Heldanners, who show no sign of letting up in their advance towards Alpha. In order for those old modules to make any sort of sense, SOMEBODY has to be in control of the whole country. ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:08:32 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Return of Rad - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.D16C7F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, > If we will be dealing with the future events for Mystara, I think we > should make a decision concerning the events in Mark of Amber. Of > course, anyone can disagree about anything, but we need an "official" > position about Etienne. Please, EVERYBODY, send your opinions on > it. Does Etienne recover his immortality? Let me see.. there are 3 outcomes for the module: 1) Etienne returns as the most powerful mage in Glantri, but unable to use the Radiance or able to become Immortal (the PCs are poor roleplayers). 2) Etienne returns as the most powerful mage in Glantri, with Immortal friends, and able to become Immortal in the future (the most likely outcome). 3) Etienne returns as the Immortal Rad, with full access to his former powers (the PCs are /exceptional/ RPers). You left one out, 4) The Old One (who grabbed Etienne in the first place) makes an example of him to quell the arrogance of the others. George - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.D16C7F60 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhsHAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAHAAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gUmV0dXJuIG9m IFJhZABWCQEFgAMADgAAAMwHBwAGAAIACAAgAAYAEAEBIIADAA4AAADMBwcABgACAAcAAgAGAPEA AQmAAQAhAAAANUVEQzQwNzlDQ0Q2Q0YxMTlCRUM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAAJQcBA5AGAPAEAAASAAAA CwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAQIIk8QlruwEeAHAAAQAAABwAAABS RTogW015c3RhcmFdIFJldHVybiBvZiBSYWQAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbtrCfEceUDcX9bMEc+b7ERF U1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAAAcAAABnZW9yZ2UAAAMABhB7qI2zAwAH EO8CAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABIRUxMTyxJRldFV0lMTEJFREVBTElOR1dJVEhUSEVGVVRVUkVFVkVO VFNGT1JNWVNUQVJBLElUSElOS1dFU0hPVUxETUFLRUFERUNJU0lPTkNPTkNFUk5JTkdUSEVFVkVO VFNJAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAfgMAAHoDAADIBQAATFpGddSaSYP/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNo CsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EWDzI1NQKACoEN sQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRRhQvyYwBAIEhlbBWgBiwKhQqLbGkxODDBAtFpLTE0NA3wDNBzHTMLWTE2 CqADYBPQY3MFQBvNMzYd1xpFHtY+wCBJZiB3ZSIgAxC9AyBiIkANsAdAC4BnIlEYdGggI4AiQGZ1 dNMIcCJAZXYJ8HQEIAIQ5wXBE7EKwGEsIfAjoQuATmsiIQqFIeBzaAhgbFRkIADAayJAYSLRY5UE AGkCICAFoG5jBJF/IyIjsiRlC4AF0ArAJgBvDSIQQQbQBJAuIE9mvyZHBaAIcBGwJYAAcHkCINUi QGMDkWQEAGEJwieArwbgJAAr4iXCZyWAYi1hzyIxLDAJgCvhICIqIB0ASyfQB0AiJkdwbwCQdHso Ai00RTCQCfAsMCqgUAZsIvArskVWRVJZsEJPRFklgBGwbicg9ywQCHAqEHALgCgBBCACIGcmRyNw KqBEbweRMUUgvxYQBaAkcAXAJdApgW0EYCMAICMBdHk/G1wgTP8RwCcwIkARsDGgKqAjsSQx+wrA IkAzKhAkAAWgB4Ik0gcjsgRhJwBlOiAxKf81aSQRBjEyAAqFOsQTwDBB3SIwciPwAyAAwGciQCmh mkcY8XQFEC4UdW4BoDsx4COgbz+gEbAjo1Jh/yygAHAocCoQBcA/0jzWQDBPIrA6IiHwNsUgKCOy UP5DPJEkMTBQBbEDYDHgC1HSeQSQcykqoDI7nzyvPz2/PskjY0LnA1AxYWRz/yvSLtE/5AqFQn4p oSO5Q3NnR3MckCdgbHk55kVBM/9FhwqFRigjo0LnQNFJRUgR/wMgANAocAQRQCE2ciTRB4A/BcBH wwQgQ3IKhUPGL2VeeChwBTAoAQdALwfwUO9FEwqPGhxXRVkIYE5gDiGfNCFBQSQAG04BkSA0RYAq VCPBTycRTywxKHf9JuAgCcABoCKwJyA1dkz2/mkRoEehC2AocEWAJ0JGgT80Rh/PGitbk1uTVgBh ba8LUEFBIhAl0G1AEnEKUO8igSOyCsADYGdBFCIQI7KbHvA5QXNXNldFR2UFsC8+gCB/HvsVMQBp cAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzAgWVO7CWu7AUAACDAgWVO7CWu7AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJF OiAAAAAATWI= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.D16C7F60-- ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:04:32 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.C4D2CA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > Apparently you are too lazy. In the same dictionary I quoted from > above, here is the definition of cleric, "A clergyman." Lovely. Did you bother to notice that clergyman clerics tend more to be scholars and religious scribes than mace-toting crusaders? Since a cleric is, by definition, a clergyman then they are members of the clergy. By definition (see the dictionary) the clergy is the body of ordained priests within the church. Who ever said anything about mace-toting crusaders? Or are you suggesting that D&D clerics are somehow too good to be scholars or religious scribes? Did you notice that clerical means office-working? Clerical has four distinct meanings: 1) Relating to the work of a clerk in an office. 2) Connected with the clergy. 3) A policy favoring the political influence of the clergy 4) Adherence to the above (3) policy. Only the first mentions anything about offices. My point is that there is more than one way to define, connote, and interpret words. I agree, and to communicate effectively one must take the words that are used and attempt to interpret the meaning that is being put forth through them. You stated point blank that mystics in D&D have no connection specified in the rules with Immortals or religions. This has been demonstrated to be false, and having written for TSR in the past I can tell you that they do not edit material with their eyes closed, they are very literal about such things. You now seem to be making an attempt to defend your erroneous statement by making the logical mistake of saying that words have many different interpretations. But I have demonstrated that within the context of the words used mystics do indeed have a connection to religions. How about the D&D gorgon? Im Greek mythology, the gorgons are three of a kind, one being Medusa and others likewise snake-haired female monsters, but in D&D gorgons are petrifying-gas-bellowing, armor-plated bulls that may be encountered in herds. You are now speaking of proper nouns. These are specific labels which can change easily. Take the word Wildcat. Does this refer to a spirited person, a type of feline, or to a World War Two fighter? Outside of the context you cannot tell for certain. If you whip out that dictionary too often, you might as well trash D&D and start from square one. Why. Is D&D so poorly written that no one who makes correct use of the language can read it? Do D&D druids burn cats live to gain augury into the coming year? What does this have to do with the discussion at hand? > As for creating a literal and logistic argument (by which I assume you > mean logical rather than something to do with supplies and services), > I will treat that as a compliment. There is nothing wrong with being logical > and precise. Of course there's nothing wrong with it, but there's a time and a place. I didn't mean to bash logic, etc., but I think that taking things too literally can make you lose sight of much meaning, much of the richness and variability of words, especially in a role-playing game. As a professional writer of fiction and non-fiction I am not unaware of the use of words to portray meaning, atmosphere, and emotion. But if this is done in a poor manner then all sorts of misunderstandings can result. The fact of the matter is that in some cases there are precise definitions for things, and improper use of these definitions leads to a breakdown in communications. > I find this prevents people from misunderstanding me. But it can sometimes prevent you from understanding other people, no? When they fail to use the language properly, yes. This is a lot like saying that it is okay to do math wrong, because doing it right is not as important as doing the math in the first place. The problem is that doing it wrong can be worse than not doing it in the first place. A poorly made calculation can cause a building to collapse under the first strong breeze. A poorly worded phrase can cause a war (indeed, this has happened). > In short, it allows me to communicate my views. People can, of course, > discard the dictionary definitions and logical implications, but then there > is no basis for communication. While dictionary definitions and logic are useful and to some extent necessary for communication, I stand in strong but friendly disagreement with the above statement. I'm tempted to rail off my views as a cognitive scientist, but I blabber enough here as it is and it's not really that important. I will, however, recommend Raymond Gibbs' _The Poetics of Mind_ as a counterargument if you're interested, or we can discuss it off the list. As you wish. I do not have the book you mention. I see no need to read an entire book in order to understand a relatively simple argument. If you do not wish to continue this, then I suggest you should be more thoughtful about the statements you make when the world is listening. George P.S. As for being a cognitive scientist, I am a physical scientist :-). - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.C4D2CA20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgYHAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAFgAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gTXlzdGljcwCW From ???@??? Wed Jul 10 11:08:03 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA02577; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:37:02 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA11463 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:22:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:22:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199607090822.DAA11463@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #154 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 306385bc14858153b6a03db69c83da8f BwEFgAMADgAAAMwHBwAGAAIABAAgAAYADAEBIIADAA4AAADMBwcABgABACcAGAAGACYBAQmAAQAh AAAANUFEQzQwNzlDQ0Q2Q0YxMTlCRUM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAAIQcBA5AGAHgOAAASAAAACwAjAAAA AAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAYALiYQlruwEeAHAAAQAAABYAAABSRTogW015 c3RhcmFdIE15c3RpY3MAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABu2sJYeJ5QNxb1swRz5vsREVTVAAAAAAeAB4M AQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAABwAAAGdlb3JnZQAAAwAGEORw0BkDAAcQ7A8AAB4ACBAB 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Kevin Augenstein wrote: > I always thought that the Nucleus of Spheres was created by people in > Blackmoor, and not by immortals, so wouldn't that mean that the Glantrains > have nothing at all against it. The Nucleus of the Spheres is an artifact that was created by transforming the engine of the USS Beagle, which was created by the aliens of which Rheddrian/Benekander is one. The original machinery was probably more advanced than even Blackmoor was able to get before blowing itself up (otherwise, they'd be in space...wait...there's an idea..anyway) but then made into an artifact, although I currently can't recall whether the Immortals or the Old Ones did it. I think it's the latter. Actually Rad discovered the engine and made it into the Nucleus of the Spheres to produce the Radiance, and thus promote the development of Energy Sphere Immortal candidates. Immortals of other spheres got together and placed a curse on it to prevent its overuse... George - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.D5D8B320 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiIHAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAJwAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gR2xhbnRyaWFu cyBhbmQgSW1tb3J0YWxzAOgNAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcHAAYAAgANADYABgArAQEggAMADgAAAMwHBwAG AAIACwApAAYAHAEBCYABACEAAAA2MkRDNDA3OUNDRDZDRjExOUJFQzQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAATBwED kAYAJAUAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQDg9DexCmu7AR4A cAABAAAAJwAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gR2xhbnRyaWFucyBhbmQgSW1tb3J0YWxzAAACAXEAAQAA ABYAAAABu2sKsTd5QNxj1swRz5vsREVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAA BwAAAGdlb3JnZQAAAwAGELcG090DAAcQIwMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhFTExPLE9ORlJJLDVKVUwx OTk2LEtFVklOQVVHRU5TVEVJTldST1RFOklBTFdBWVNUSE9VR0hUVEhBVFRIRU5VQ0xFVVNPRlNQ SEVSRVNXQVNDUkVBVEVEQllQRU9QTEVJTkIAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACoAwAApAMAANIFAABMWkZ120jH Ef8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLk BxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFGFC/JjAEAgSGVsFaAMLCAKhQqL bGkxOIIwAtFpLTE0NA3wrwzQHUMZ3BNQbxPQYwVAGk8DoEYFEBtANSBKQnUDIDE5OTYbQEvMZXYL gBSwdWcJ8BPBlSDRdx7yOhvdMzYd7yEe9T4gSSAHQHdhkROwIHRoCGBnaAVAFSVQYSWyZQewdWNs pGV1BCBvZgYAcCYw3xYQBCAlAAQgBQBlJfAJgIAgYnkgcGVvC1AvJkALgAqFJKBCC2Bja98EYAWw G0AAcCgwbh8AKEIvB3AEYAAgB0BzG0Bzb8MhoAhgbGRuJyW1B4BLA5El10cY8XRyC3FzWykXEYB2 JkAqkWgLgGfPJNAFQAdAAyBhZy4CBUCYaXQuG20BkSBUJjz/JiInFgQAKkEk0AAgBpAA0D8ltSec CoUt4QCAAhBybXcvYiYiCfBnC4AmQDK1VWpTBfBCJ/BnJpAbQHf/L1ARcCeOJiEKhQdACJAGMUsm 4TjkUiYwZGQHIW72LzhgN4BrKlEEkDOSAiDYZS4gMeMFsGk3YQdA/yywANAvUQSQKGAnkQqFHuE6 YgGgbChgKyEmQGFk+nYAcGMoISXRA6AgsAnw7ymYJ4NAASZAdCvAISAqsfcNwEBiAmBvA/AZEAqF MJCFEbBsJvB1cCAoLzHPBJAD8TixJiF5JygxKNL3K6AKsEDwLkdAJQAwkUdAqUWCZSczs2kNsGFH QJUAcHklASkKhWJ1JgN/A6AAwA2wKOFDATPZKjFseyVUJLFjCHAWEAIwQCFj/wBwLEEWEE0gL+E4 4BHAJzG7NcYmMUkrFj3hJhNPLBD7H1EHkWRIkDCCPZAkwC9C/mswgUgxJiILYAJABJAwtt8ZzBvM Gd8UsB8wdS/RKGDuUkCgUKEE8G8u8BYRNvr/KlJKZDBxSsImLE5pJxZDAf0e4WQmcELhJjFWoTwx QPD/KjQlUCaxHuEEYBPQJhMNsHsu8BWgcAeAAjBUJSbhRf0+0WcoYCcUTwdNElCxKAF+c1ESTygm 8EVzRuEnNGf7HwA1xm9DMWLCKlILUUDy/mFMchGwPUFYwltjQYIwcr8mwVcxJrBHMjDPMdBHKJAX X8A6VhUxAGoQAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzDga6JhCmu7AUAACDDga6JhCmu7AR4APQABAAAA BQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAyH4= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.D5D8B320-- ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 02:32:11 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.DA974CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I could not help but respond (since I posted the Mystic of Vanya). Throughout history (on this world as well as on Mystara) there have been religiously based fighting orders which live in monastic settings and owe their alliegance to some religious ideal/figure. Many of the viking bands were inspired by their ancient tales of the Teutonic gods to form such war bands. This is the basis for the Mystic of Vanya. A highly disciplined and completely devoted fighting order worshipping Vanya is hardly out of the realm of possibility. It seems equally likely that such an order would be granted boons by Vanya for their loyalty. One such order exists already, "The Heldannic Knights." I have simply extended the idea to one where the emphasis was on fighting prowess rather than clericalism. George (In reply to: This whole discussion on the nature of mystics/monks seems to me to be getting a bit silly. Whether or not the motivation for mystics being nonreligious was TSR's newfound moralmajoritarianism, it seems that everyone on this list is pretty much agreed that omitting religion as a form of self-censorship is pretty lame. Also, it seems to me that the problem is not the specific differentiation of mystics from clerics by definition but rather the lack of any clear function for mystics at all. As described in the original Master rules the mystic seems like a bit of an afterthought and with the exception of the monastery at Lhamsa in GAZ3, no Mystara source supplement has used mystics in any actual culture in any interesting or detailed way. The tendency to insert monks/martial artists into cultures where they clearly don't fit in other TSR worlds has always been a pet peeve of mine. Twisting cultures for the sake of creativity is a great part of what Mystara is all about, but it should be done in a way that is holistic and well thought out, not just arbitrary. The fact that power gamers as a rule tend to love kung fu killing machine characters is no reason why ninja-monks should appear across the world. The Mystics of Vanya which someone posted recently, while interesting and well done from a game mechanics point of view, seem absurd culturally. Ascetic martial artists worshipping a Germanic goddess the rest of whose followers live for plate mail and zweihanders? silly. As a historical note, ascetic monks being trained in unarmed combat was a phenomenon confined entirely to East Asia (pseudo-European mystics on Mystara, for instance, might have considerable discipline and mind over body control, but not fighting skills) and grew largely from the fact that all except the warrior class were prohibited from owning weapons in many Asian countries. Karate, for instance, developed from a peasant revolt on Okinawa, where locals had to use their hands and makeshift weapons such as nunchaku (agricultural flails) and tonfa (rice threshing clubs) to defeat Samurai and other soldiers armed with swords and clad in metal armor. A Mystaran mystic order might have developed from similar circumstances ... perhaps an Ochalean revolt against Thyatin abuses? m@2 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.DA974CA0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IioHAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAFgAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gTXlzdGljcwCW BwEFgAMADgAAAMwHBwAGAAIAIAALAAYAEwEBIIADAA4AAADMBwcABgACABgAJwAGACcBAQmAAQAh AAAANjZEQzQwNzlDQ0Q2Q0YxMTlCRUM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAAFwcBA5AGAIAKAAASAAAACwAjAAAA AAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAgASKPg1ruwEeAHAAAQAAABYAAABSRTogW015 c3RhcmFdIE15c3RpY3MAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABu2sNPoJ5QNxn1swRz5vsREVTVAAAAAAeAB4M AQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAABwAAAGdlb3JnZQAAAwAGEMHTUDgDAAcQ/QkAAB4ACBAB AAAAZQAAAEhFTExPLElDT1VMRE5PVEhFTFBCVVRSRVNQT05EKFNJTkNFSVBPU1RFRFRIRU1ZU1RJ Q09GVkFOWUEpVEhST1VHSE9VVEhJU1RPUlkoT05USElTV09STERBU1dFTExBU09OTVkAAAAAAgEJ EAEAAAARCQAADQkAAAYPAABMWkZ1uMbjOv8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAG wwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMU UAsKFFGFC/JjAEAgSGVsFaAmLAqFCoVJIAWgdWxQZCBubwVAaBsAcJggYnUFQBYQc3ACIMUckCgA kG5jZRwhHbA7E8EckHQc8AXQE7FpYyAgb2YgVgBweWEkKS4bXFRoA2B1Z65oCGAc0QQAdAWweR3w ZwIgHvEEACB3BbAcgWH/ItEbASNCInEfQgrAICAe8qMWEBzgYXZlCoViCeEhHXFsaWdpCGBzbK0i QGIjUB7RZiZQaB9wfxkQH6ALIASQItEh4BFwIKsmQCVAIAuAIARgbiNQdx9yEbEngnMKhQBwHJBv uyOAHvJpKoEbEAiQZwBw/x5BIhApoANwHlAmJyjgDbCNB0AvJ0EIcGUuIAXQjx/xH6IfAQqFdmlr J5L/JuAd0CNiJPELgB2gK1Ae0f5iIkArJR4wCJACMB7wB0B3B5EulCEgZR1QAiAfgWdPBHAqJiwx AhBybSmgdf0ocXcloi/iLhEhMCLBIsH/HwIm4SLBNGEe/yABLhAKhe5BIdEhgCaxZAQAMcALUO8L gB7RKqIFoG0LUBHAGwB5OVFldhzAJx8KhSLxc30h4HAwsCehH+M2AhGBZP8msSGiMoUWEAdANJAf sR6RRQCQYgMQaXR5LhFJHnQKhRGwE+AEIGVxdbcrgSJAJkBrOuI3IGEFQP80swORJ9Mi4RxyJdAz cCSA+wIwMOJvAiAqJjERPbQ25dcrURWgIBBsQINPOfA0pHlDhGV4IfEEIAdAP2FkcHksICIhMCVW GvFkuwBwM0JLAwAnYTWAIkCx/yUTKaAHcAtQIkBIcBPQHdD/HtUtUiwiAiAeUChAJOEzxvs3MRPg cBGANqI1ACPjJ0d/E1Aq4QQRJIAkwkKiA6Bj2zJABRBjB0AEAG0gTQyCaCBHZQWwZyVWCoUo7kkm AkwSIhA6Un0LAyZACDE4MALRaS0xNH40DfAM0FeTGdxQcRPQY/8FQDXDKEAG8B5QOXImkACQbyJx InMeUClAdC3hH6Jt6R9Tcy8pIWsEIEFkLDHPLIEsMURBVi0zNlg/WUX/U+Ap0yNAHTBAcEvRQgEu Ef5XHPBREwWxHLI3IgRgH3D+dkLQWtI24lwlJcEnkgqFDRywbiy4T3JUU1In6wQgOfB3AhB1HdEE YCSA+T+QYWoFsEBwCsAHMAMA/1JASVBhYl0UQsIKhTswBJD+eU2iInZSIQVAIsETUCnB/SJAbUMT CcIe4kLRA3BAcP8ngyYlA6AjUT3wCoU0Yx+x8RGwbGYtHkAAgD0Ea4nnC2AHgC4RQWwsYGjKXXT/ QsI3IgqFUHECYBPgNgJixv8doAWQBpAfgTlwDdAk4QIw/wcwY6Nb+CcwA2FRpWSRIkD/CoUNsQuA QHBa0h1DUQYeUPkLYGNrH6IuUlGxbvJnQP9ZgGO+QtErgS4ROHYEIA2w/wTyJdAckCjxNyJoASZg KUD3D7EpUUOxchxwB5FjAx9U/0FkQkJhJR+xKjcjQAGABJB/NyAhYn0BHdED8DcgTpR4fx5ABTB2 hWMEKUJqUXziTB8RgEGQPfEDoAqFR0Fa/jNJUBywJCYsUQhwHkE0sO89UHRBMeJPESAmkB7RZDb/ KPEuUgDQW6B/kVqQRyBbsv8KhYr1C4B/8QeQJ4U7EQGQ/wMQHtE1AECSSYE3EEyCHjD/VWIwcoNR KRJc0FyQCsB2Qf8DICo2kQFIoo0xLECL1Sgi3yTiNyF7JTlCAiAnBUAnQP9rcUNhURNmkSLkBCAK hYni/wdAjrFkkiXxPfB1QAVAdUD/ajFb4znhNZID8SeDkqc25v+G4IHBglgFAC1wY2FAcTYC/z3w CcFC0QqxPtMoQELRiEb/nFIjogbgHVBJUB1CYWIhkf9EFHh2TaKK8o6iQqQ+Egbwf5kyH5CD8yOS g3ae4xyyavsmkH0BcmFRJIAiMH1YjxL+ZothQqQdsDAxM3BxUSgRv25jgDKPQywiFaAowWtnQP8n sHugqNBhoSeSAMEh4EeR/5s2EYGLYSgCdIM/UixgA6CHKEAiQAMAbmphLVyl/Z+0YT1Qe2IA0ANg BBE3Iv8i86UsH0QyYz20KEQsYk2i9x6VFhBv8XQmsElQKEFaMf+NOiqiPIYjkqCzd3OcgXFR712B EXEzQWuhb40xH6IvYP8H0ElQQWKesTSwCyCLxUHy/31aHkAfcpDmkdY8+j3wU6D/NIC2gjNyfiE2 JI1ynUQeoP9eBwIQGxEwMWsiKME24gtRrxPQqdEDESqieiOAaVFx/SfyPy4gYZV9iD3wIeRR8v0c omVJUCNQufVcs2S0pNH/OeMo8WdACsAHgDpTJuAFQH9Pcm6XTwAJ8CxxZYEcQW7feQEe0XYiJiGP w0UpUX3hKwcwHfBwEbB1lGAtRf0IcG+t4SkBsCaHJyQ1SVD/NuIwgQGQHjFJUG1Qg7JLk//IcQCQ BIEBoFo1ObQqk5ih/yrBakEbtgbgSTDIYqTQBvDXnxQcsidHc6licySgKqL/CcEH4AtgU9EmsXdz NyKmA/9ON3z0hLWulArABRAFsVGw/yNQMBVQcSHgYVE7cneCKuD/rJEnsCOArcBFEYcJA4EiQL/K EshSZ0Ck0AiQNYJLJHH/w9LNLDshGwDLEdlVl7IjUL9EkRu2FhA7QEcgI/JPL4H+YTUAsvIk4hWg UgE+IqhD/4ohKxXBMkjBZ1KawT0hAYD/tGjaVEMEZtF7sRGAqOAd8P9sgR+AuKUnMAth07YzIaYA fx3wUeErAh2BqhFk91Gwdf+4MCShLEANsZzCBhBsMMVh/yqUURMsYByACJFIwcYzhDP/A+An0eN0 2BF+o9rmjjG6sv9ngXGCJCbLVkN1zgneLUvh7wMQG5gxwIjwdUGQzZMEIHYu9MCXwXIRgMpwQ0JP /xFxe1EmAuBDbIALcWthITA/IBAngZ6xiiHBkBtcbUB+MhtcXi9fP1lFCoUVMQAB/VAAAAADABAQ AAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMEB7ZjEMa7sBQAAIMEB7ZjEMa7sBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAACm ng== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D3A.DA974CA0-- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #154 ***************************** From ???@??? Wed Jul 10 11:08:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA17273; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:46:07 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA17372 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:26:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:26:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199607092226.RAA17372@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #155 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 8f64b35fd07fbdb8404e66bb998ac8be mystara-digest Tuesday, 9 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 155 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 02:56:15 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Return of Rad - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D42.F44A4DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, - ---------- From: Shin Chyang Yu[SMTP:scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu] Sent: Saturday, July 06, 1996 7:09 AM To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > I'm optimist on the final outcome of Mark of Amber, so I favour him being > back as Rad, i.e. immortal. > Mark of Amber takes place in AC 1012, but I think that after being back > Etienne/Rad spends a few years "in the shadow", as he did when coming back > from the Land of Mist, figuring out how to defeat Synn. So he would be back > on the scene in about 1020 AC. > So you think Synn will be around that long? Based on Poor Wizard Almanac 3, Jagger should be on the verge of figureing out he has been fooled ... by a dragon no less, and start to work to bring down Synn himself. Of course, by that time, Synn might be too established to be rooted out and Etienne is help is needed to get rid of Synn from Glantri. Do you really believe it to be easy to take Synn down? She rules a kingdom of undead, she has followers and spies everywhere, she has enormous influence in many lands, is an accomplished sorceress in her own right, and the Old Ones alone know how many other personas she has stashed about. Not a foe I would choose willingly. George - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D42.F44A4DC0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IikIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAHAAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gUmV0dXJuIG9m IFJhZABWCQEFgAMADgAAAMwHBwAJAAIAOAAPAAIALgEBIIADAA4AAADMBwcACQACADUAJAACAEAB AQmAAQAhAAAANzRFMjE0OEYyREQ5Q0YxMTlCRUM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAACAcBA5AGADQGAAAQAAAA CwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAYGGhGmxtuwEeAHAAAQAAABwAAABS RTogW015c3RhcmFdIFJldHVybiBvZiBSYWQAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbttbBqhjxTiddktEc+b7ERF U1QAAAAAAwAGEIwR2Z4DAAcQ3gMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhFTExPLC0tLS0tLS0tLS1GUk9NOlNI SU5DSFlBTkdZVVNNVFA6U0NZMkdAS0VMVklOU0VBU1ZJUkdJTklBRURVU0VOVDpTQVRVUkRBWSxK VUxZMDYsMTk5Njc6MDlBTVRPOk0AAAAAAgEJEAEAAADqBAAA5gQAANgHAABMWkZ1/KNwR/8ACgEP AhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0K gAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFGFC/JjAEAgSGVsFaAGLAqFCotsaTE4MMEC 0WktMTQ0DfAM0HMdMwtZMTYKoANgE9BjfQVALR9XCoceCwwwHtZGvQNhOiBeHtYMggYAaAuAECBD aHkZASBZdUBbU01UUDoE8HlQMmdAaxsAdguALpERsGFzLiXgcmcLgOUHMC4JgHVdH/8hDQZgJwIw Ij8jTGF0CHBkYQB5LCBKdWx5IAQwNivgMTk5NiDQNzowORSwTSdPIQ1sVG8pjyNLbROxCsBhQC1s QGlvLgWgbeMtXyhedWJqHxEvfyNLpFJlNMBbTTFkXTaRkyuBA6BvZgfwYWQbX/kcYzM2HdcaRSF3 AaAFECJ6MfAgUGEG8GkgZnACIQaQaWMrcAmAOo0KhT4btj2ASSdtN+AfBTAHcAQABUACICB0aDRl IB0AbgdAN+B1dFcyIT9QN/FNCsBrN+JBVwbQBJAr4HM7wEk/YGF6dghhICQgPlBBIAuAZ309F2IA 0ECwJkA4EivgaXUm8C5EEG0EYAAgB0Audz0XQIs/IGElsAQgC1FjEz9QJDFBQyyAMDEy/SvgYj/g QZE/MAuAQLA/MH8rcEOQAYBGQUJzQ0M9F0VjPHAJ8G5lLzghQWBwtQnwZAQgYT9gB9F5JjBZEaAg IiQxPzJzEYBkOG93IivgQ6E/QWRp/Uswdz9AA6AyIUmPA1I/I35MAHBLMEBSPsEr4B0AZ/8IcSSh P9FCIE1APyA7wA2x2yYwKSF5StBEUFM7wD9B+ncIYGxLMEEgSbw/BQTw/wnwRxMBoFHCGTAB0EdR RPj7CoVTQXkIYEhFUuJOIAMQ/wMgVAEKwAhgUHFIsxWgGRBwPyAgQiZACYA+8lA6bwWxVzuQCxEK hUFsEwOBANAgMyvhYWdn70ZBTQBTtj8FdgSQXUA34t9RM0lzUcM/UBGAcwqFQSDvTlECEAbwWuEu YZBCYCww1UvAZDGgZz8BbjvAYVD/BBBNcVBxMXIFQFJBU6BAof9SQTtxQqdNMQOgWLNCMRGw5Gxm RFAgTzgABaAIcP8RsEfRLDBIsz6RZvFYsz6w3GdoBUBUAVJAbwqFB5D/AZEckE0AWuFkQj9QA2Ae 8T9QgUgBUGJKlUQQTaJscP9sAkrgCYBqEwqFXUAFQAUQ11CDWLNPw0cY8XQFEET29xl/GoVvlURX 9BYQB0AsIftBIByQZV6QRBBjo1QBJjHfZzE7wEZyWKRlMj9Xdj9B7nIsEAeRS8BrQpFNMD5R/zgA WbEmMEPxafFgImERGxH+dwSQS6FLgG+VS1AIkAQg+XMRcnlOMRYQd5gJ8AWwvQRgdQQgC4AY4ApQ bkcE/QOBeW+VGPFLkEQBeLJDkN5jMiELUGnkQXByRwAWEP8EESQxejE34GVRBRBocWMD62+VPzJP U9FPSuBLoVpB/T9Qa2KQB+BSAnxyN+A/Mf8FwEtgEaACIEOhafFvlXfybzFxafNWA2ZBTh7wS7Jv /z9QQaBTpBFwW1ARsFjzQpHPLCBE9m+WI9JHZQWwXUALb5UVMQCKcAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAA AEAABzDAhB28a227AUAACDDAhB28a227AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAA5Os= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6D42.F44A4DC0-- ------------------------------ From: Matthew Levy Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystics Not to start another one of the endless debates on this list, but I would like to clarify what I said earlier. I never suggested that there was no precedent for disciplined religious orders of warriors in Europesque settings. What I did say was that the Mystic class is intended to emulate Asian martial arts and as such is inappropriate for fighting styles which do not primarily rely on unarmed combat and mind-body discipline. A perfect model for Vanya's followers already exists - the cleric class, which after all was originally based on groups like the Templars who also served as the model for the Heldannic Knights! These followers are skilled in the use of heavy arms and armor as well as having the ability to channel miraculous powers from Vanya - spells. This is far more logical, consistent, and interesting, than taking the old OD&D Mystic or AD&D1 Monk and adding a longsword, which is essentially what the Mystic of Vanya is. Excuse me , I'm getting carried away here and being as rude as the rest of the boors on this list. I apologize. However, I do maintain that the best way to keep classes and types special in D&D is not to universalize them. Mystics in Ochalea and Lhamsa are a fascinating curiosity. Mystics in endless variations across Mystara in every country become just another character class to minmax combat damage. For the same reason I support local variations on spell ability., regional wizard specialist schools, differing access to clerical spheres for different religions, even different thief skill profiles for different types of thieves. I think the Skills & POwers book is a pretty good start at this. m@2 On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > Hello, > > I could not help but respond (since I posted the Mystic of Vanya). > > Throughout history (on this world as well as on Mystara) there have > been religiously based fighting orders which live in monastic settings > and owe their alliegance to some religious ideal/figure. Many of the > viking bands were inspired by their ancient tales of the Teutonic gods > to form such war bands. This is the basis for the Mystic of Vanya. > A highly disciplined and completely devoted fighting order > worshipping Vanya is hardly out of the realm of possibility. It > seems equally likely that such an order would be granted boons > by Vanya for their loyalty. One such order exists already, "The > Heldannic Knights." I have simply extended the idea to one where > the emphasis was on fighting prowess rather than clericalism. > > George > > (In reply to: > > This whole discussion on the nature of mystics/monks seems to me to be > getting a bit silly. Whether or not the motivation for mystics being > nonreligious was TSR's newfound moralmajoritarianism, it seems that > everyone on this list is pretty much agreed that omitting religion as a > form of self-censorship is pretty lame. Also, it seems to me that the > problem is not the specific differentiation of mystics from clerics by > definition but rather the lack of any clear function for mystics at all. > As described in the original Master rules the mystic seems like a bit of > an afterthought and with the exception of the monastery at Lhamsa in > GAZ3, no Mystara source supplement has used mystics in any actual culture > in any interesting or detailed way. The tendency to insert monks/martial > artists into cultures where they clearly don't fit in other TSR worlds > has always been a pet peeve of mine. Twisting cultures for the sake of > creativity is a great part of what Mystara is all about, but it should be > done in a way that is holistic and well thought out, not just arbitrary. > The fact that power gamers as a rule tend to love kung fu killing machine > characters is no reason why ninja-monks should appear across the world. > The Mystics of Vanya which someone posted recently, while interesting and > well done from a game mechanics point of view, seem absurd culturally. > Ascetic martial artists worshipping a Germanic goddess the rest of whose > followers live for plate mail and zweihanders? silly. > As a historical note, ascetic monks being trained in unarmed combat was a > phenomenon confined entirely to East Asia (pseudo-European mystics on > Mystara, for instance, might have considerable discipline and mind over > body control, but not fighting skills) and grew largely from the fact > that all except the warrior class were prohibited from owning weapons in > many Asian countries. Karate, for instance, developed from a peasant > revolt on Okinawa, where locals had to use their hands and makeshift > weapons such as nunchaku (agricultural flails) and tonfa (rice threshing > clubs) to defeat Samurai and other soldiers armed with swords and clad in > metal armor. A Mystaran mystic order might have developed from similar > circumstances ... perhaps an Ochalean revolt against Thyatin abuses? > > m@2 > > > ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 04:19:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: [Mystara] Getting rid off Synn [Was: Return of Rad] On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > Do you really believe it to be easy to take Synn down? > She rules a kingdom of undead, she has followers and > spies everywhere, she has enormous influence in many > lands, is an accomplished sorceress in her own right, and > the Old Ones alone know how many other personas she > has stashed about. Not a foe I would choose willingly. Here's an idea- Why doesn't someone tell her where Haldemar has gone? She'll go screaming offf to the Hollow World for revenge on her age old enemy, and no one has to worry about dealing with her... except Haldemar, but he's a big boy. ;) ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 15:31:50 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] time setting of old modules >From Champions of Mystara Explorer's Manual, page 2: X4 should begin in the spring of year 1005 AC X5 follows X10 should take place in the fall or winter of 1005 AC and would probably end around the spring or summer of 1006 AC CoM also suggest to update the area along the Asanda River according to the description of the Kingdom of Sind, and not to let the PCs kill the Master before X10. There was also a post by Ann Dupuis a few months ago on how to put together info on Sayr Ulan from CoM and X10. X6 should be set in 425 BC with a few changes. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 15:31:47 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion At 20.03 06/07/96 -0700, Cthulhudrew wrote: >On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >> In the Almanacs there's mention to "Alfheim Avengers": a group of young >> surface elves that wants to reconquest the Canolbarth forest in a few weeks; >> but there's nothing about Trees of Life. >> I agree on Alfheim elves leaving their precious Trees in a safe place in >> Darokin with a strong honor guard and taking with them only healthy cuttings >> as said in WotI. But remember that no two ToL can exist within 50 miles >> (i.e. about 6 hex) of one another. > >A point I believe the editors and writers at TSR forgot themselves, as it >seems to me that at least two, and possibly more ToL are within the 50 >mile limit of one another in the forest of Alfheim (spec. the Feadiel >and, I think, Mealidil trees). > I checked the map, there are 3 ToL within the 50 mile limit of one another: the Mealidil (Mealidor), Long Runner (Pinitel) and Fediael (Feador) trees. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:26:11 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn >On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > >> Do you really believe it to be easy to take Synn down? >> She rules a kingdom of undead, she has followers and >> spies everywhere, she has enormous influence in many >> lands, is an accomplished sorceress in her own right, and >> the Old Ones alone know how many other personas she >> has stashed about. Not a foe I would choose willingly. > >Here's an idea- > >Why doesn't someone tell her where Haldemar has gone? She'll go screaming >offf to the Hollow World for revenge on her age old enemy, and no one has >to worry about dealing with her... except Haldemar, but he's a big boy. ;) Why would Rad try to defeat Synn? Because she's evil? He never wiped out Brannart or Morphail did he? Of course, neither Brannart or Morphail ever had control of a handful of other princes but I think Rad will be busy trying to rebuild his followers (most of whom probably lost faith after he dissappeared for a few years) in the near future. He may drop a hint or two to the other princes, expecially Jaggar, should she start annoying him, or daring to encroach on anything he wants, but she's really just another magic using being that's in a position of power in Glantri. I never thought she was any better then any of the other arch-mage princes anyway. (But in reality Synn wouldn't last an hour against an Immortal, even an From ???@??? Wed Jul 10 11:08:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA17273; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:46:07 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA17372 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:26:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:26:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199607092226.RAA17372@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #155 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 8f64b35fd07fbdb8404e66bb998ac8be initiate with the experience of a Temporal.) Rad breaks off 6 avatars, spends 30 pp to create 6 mortal identities all at 30th AD&D level, 36th OD&D, outfits them with every Dragon Slaying/controling/affecting item and spell he can dig up and uses them in perfect cooperation (they're one mind after all) with Rad's incorporal form sitting right next to Synn the entire time watching every move/spell/attack she makes warning his mortal identities about it, and telling them how to get around it. Then storm her tower using every weak spot in defense Rad's incorporal form can find, and that's the end of her. (True the 30 pp is a big hit for an initiate so he may have to wait til he gains a level or two to do it easily, but if desperate he can do it on day one of his Immortal return.) I can hear Etienne now at a speech at the college of magic, "I don't know who that adventuring party was that came to our lands to destroy our unknown menace, but the gratitude of Glantri goes out to them." (and then in Glantri the matter is closed... Unless anyone thinks Synn is a match for a full party of 36th level characters who know all about her, every power, every weakness, and have an unseeable, undetectable presence to use as a spy whenever they want.) As for Rad's return. My guess is it will take about a month for Etienne to become immortal again. When you figure he's the inventor of the "Transcend Lifeforce" spell he used to become an immortal in the first place, all he really has to do is go back to his notes, or copies of his spellbooks, regather the material components (Not incredibly difficult for a 20th level Prince of Glantri with tons of gold to hire adventurers with) and recast the spell. It may not even take a month, considering he'll probably be VERY eager to become an immortal again after being one for so long. True, he'll be an initiate again, but that fits in with the fact his follower base is probably in shambles and all his immortal lifeforce went towards recharging the nucleus. Which reminds me, how's this for a scenario? As soon as Rad becomes an immortal again, the first thing he'll do is go check out the nucleus (now that he's immune to the radiation again) and try to determine what the Old One did to it. He'll quickly learn that it's been "recharged" and theorize, correctly in my campaign, that the Old One used his immortal energy to recharge the artifact. Assuming he learned something from his arrogant mistakes in the past, Rad should be thrilled by this discovery. I mean, if he can figure out how to recharge the artifact himself, he can explore it's powers to the end of time as long as he can keep recharging it, and no one like that butinski Ixion would have a reason to stop him. (With Alphatia now in the Hollow World Ixion's influence on the surface took a big hit anyway.) I see 2 possible ways of making this work. (Which rely on the outcome of Mark of Amber.) 1) Rad makes a proposal to the Council of Hierarchs that all immortal energy taken from any criminal immortal by the council, using that Artifact from WotI who's name I can't remember right now, would be funneled directly into the nucleus. (It just dissapates into the air anyway, right?) Now the immortals of Energy would probably be for this idea because it strengthens one of their artifacts (although they may vote against it just because it's Rad proposing it.) Entropy might also be in favor of it, since the nucleus now drains power form their sphere recharging it might allievate them of that burden. The others might be against it because it indirectly increases the power of one Sphere, Energy, over the others. (They may suggest this be tried on an immortal of Energy first to insure it works correctly.) 2) If Rad learned nothing from his encounter with the Old Ones, he may take more of a lone wolf approach. He could devise a way to drain power from Immortals himself, with the help of the nucleus of course. He then draws other immortals, particularly those of Entropy, and even more particularly those immortals who sent minions to terrorize him in his Old One induced dream state, into the cavern of the Nucleus and traps them there, Baak chains, immortal mirror of life trapping, whatever. He then "siphons off" their power direclty into the nucleus so that the radience energy used by his followers is replaced immediately from the trapped immortal. (Lesser immortal beings like titans, fiends and the like may work to a lesser effect.) Either of these situations might inflame tensions all over again, this time between Spheres instead of just between differing immortals of Energy. Of course, just figuring out what the Old Ones did to the nucleus may take Rad a century or two of testing, for those DM's who don't feel like dealing with another Immortal war anytime soon. One last thing, really. :-) Someone referred to Rad's return as him again becomming the "most powerful mage in Glantri". Well that's not quite true, he's returned in Mark of Amber to 20th level...so he's weaker then Jaggar and even Synn. (Who's 20th in addition to her Dragon Powers.) Heck, he's not even as tough as Brannart. I know this is an AD&D question, as I'm sure in OD&D he'll be 36th, just like the thousands of other 36th level mages. (OK that's a slight exaggeration, but only a slight one.) So he's not even the most powerful mage then either. Any suggestions? - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Mystics and Flamewars... Mystarans, A while back we had a long string of posts that originated on the topic of Mystics, then moved on to the volatile subject of religion and philosophy. It never escalated into a flame war, but tensions were rising. Luckily, the thread seem to die before things got out of hand. But, I see someone has brought it up again, and low grade flames seem to be making an appearance. (i.e. calling someone an "idiot") Now, I am not stepping in to to put an end to it. The topic still seems to having some bearing on OD&D and Mystara. What I am asking is that people take a step back and look at things before replying. Realize that the topic is simply not that important, certainly not important enough to warrant flames that may make enemies. So far the Mystara list has been the most civil and agreeable list I have ever been on (I am currently on 14 of 'em), and I would hate to see this change. Let's keep it focused on Mystara. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do I know what do I know? (I), never look back never look back (no). Stick it in me stick it in me (I), what do I see what do I see? (now)" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (A Higher Form of) Killing ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 12:14:01 EDT Subject: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + In all of the Mystara material I have read to date, which admittedly is far less than I would like, I have found mention of both Gods and Immortals. I can only think of two possible reasons for this: 1) Mystarans worship both Gods and Immortals (unlikely, as it is stated in many places thaey they do not knowingly worship Gods). 2) The writers of these works are used to the term God and not so used to the term Immortal and therefore use it without thinking about it. Likewise, the editors and prrofreaders, who are equally used to using God rather than Immortal, fail to notice this 'mistake' and so let it pass. What are your thoughts on the issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + Hopefully, this will not get as heated as someother thread :) My understanding. Originally, it was gods, but in attempt to market the game to younger and new gamers who (or whose parents) might be upset about the "pagen" religious content in the game, they change god to immortal and religion to philosophy. I'm not sure when did the change took place, but you will see the term god used in earlier stuffs, such as Arm of God, instead of Arm of Immortal. My guess (just a guess), TSR decided to make the change when Immortal rules was in progress, as they don't want come out something called _The God Set_ and have little kids running around screaming "I'm just became a GOD" after a particularly munchkin game that took the whole party from 3rd to 36th level plus the immortal quest in one night. However, the transition was not smooth, and you will ran across conflicting information from time to time. Just a while back there were a discussion on what is the difference between God from other AD&D setting and Immortals, I don't think there were any conclusion from that discussion. Dave Brohman pontificated: > > In all of the Mystara material I have read to date, which admittedly is > far less than I would like, I have found mention of both Gods and > Immortals. > > I can only think of two possible reasons for this: > > 1) Mystarans worship both Gods and Immortals (unlikely, as it is stated in > many places thaey they do not knowingly worship Gods). > > 2) The writers of these works are used to the term God and not so used to > the term Immortal and therefore use it without thinking about it. > Likewise, the editors and prrofreaders, who are equally used to using God > rather than Immortal, fail to notice this 'mistake' and so let it pass. > > What are your thoughts on the issue. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca > Carleton University > > Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:18:47 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion John Yu wrote: > Based on one article in Joshun's Almanic, some Alfheim Elves are start to > see thing differently. My guess is both side have people want to > negotiate for peace, but also have people wants to fight it out. The > current situation in Isreal might be very similar to the situation > between Alfheim and Shadow Elves. I looked at the Almanac and it mentioned that the Shadow Elves princess invited a group of Alfheim Elves to disccuss peace. I would take it as an indication that there are people in both sides who want peace. However, in the timeline I am working, there are powerful groups (the Brotherhood of Shadow) working to make the peace impossible. Maybe a resourceful group of PCs could avoid it, but that would be a major quest (immortality, epic heroes?) and a few smaller conflicts would happen anyway. There are common points with the situation in Israel, but some very important differences. The principal politycal powers in our world (as USA) are interested in the peace in Israel, nobody wants the oil prices going up. But Thyatis would love such a war when it is weak and recovering from the previous conflict. In 1013, when the peace negotiations begin, Ilsundal would have already contacted several allies with the talk of war. He would have prefered a negotiable solution, but his love for the Trees made him hasty and now the war is already being prepared. Loki decided that the war would be a good thing, before the Western Defense League gets strong enough to menace his troops in Sind and is helping in the war. The Khan attack on Glantri is a natural move if he wants to keep his powers. It doesn't matter if he can't beat them in their mountains, several wars have started just to make people at home happy with their governments. And Glantri is weaker now than it ever was, specially with a civil war about to happen (Drachenfels versus Synn). I have just remembered the mages in Honor Island. Does anybody have any idea about what they are up to there? They were extremely quiet during the whole WotI events and I am sure such a secretive society must have far reaching plans. Sugestions? Andre Martins acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:34:11 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + > In all of the Mystara material I have read to date, which admittedly is > far less than I would like, I have found mention of both Gods and > Immortals. > > What are your thoughts on the issue. I will shamelessly quote one of my favorite passages in the Karameikos boxed set: "The Nature of the Immortals" (sidebar, p 115): Amando: Does this place have gods? Rejondo: Gods? What are these gods? Amando: Beings of great power who meddle in the daily affairs of mortals, demand worship, and wreak havoc wherever they pass. Rejondo: Nay, we have Immortals here! Amando: What are these Immortals? Rejondo: Beings of great power who meddle in the daily affairs of mortals and wreak havoc wherever they pass. But they only occasionally demand worship. Amando: Ah! I feel much more secure now. From /Inn Between the Worlds/ By Emilio the Great - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystaraphile ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #155 ***************************** From ???@??? Wed Jul 10 14:41:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA24226; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:32:51 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20601 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:05:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:05:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199607100405.XAA20601@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #156 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7c73f045a0bdab8f6c4c007de69442f8 mystara-digest Tuesday, 9 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 156 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 18:35:02 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics Peter Donald writes: Look, I've said I'm not going to discuss this, but I'm not going to let you try and bait me into a "flame war" as you seem to be trying to do. Let me point some things out to you. > >You refuse to consider the fact that TSR could > >have stripped the religious side from the Monk when they turned it into > >the Mystic because of TSR's moralizing. > Not in the slightest, nor is that an argument I've ever made. Ever > consider actually reading messages before replying? You'll look like > less of an idiot if you do. I've read all the messages. The whole argument has been about whether the lack of religion in the Mystic class is the result of TSR's moralizing. All you've ever done is get more and more insulting, not trying to explain anything whatsoever. Here you've come right out and blatantly shown your true colours. I've tried to be mature and discuss this peacefully, but all you seem to want to do is have a flame-war, if that's what you really want please do it somewhere else... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 18:49:55 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + Dave Brohman writes: > I can only think of two possible reasons for this: > > 1) Mystarans worship both Gods and Immortals (unlikely, as it is stated in > many places thaey they do not knowingly worship Gods). > > 2) The writers of these works are used to the term God and not so used to > the term Immortal and therefore use it without thinking about it. > Likewise, the editors and prrofreaders, who are equally used to using God > rather than Immortal, fail to notice this 'mistake' and so let it pass. > > What are your thoughts on the issue. The supplements referring to gods are the older ones. TSR decided it wasn't "right" morally to call them gods and changed their name to immortals. Same thing, different name. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 18:56:06 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + Shin Chyang Yu writes: > information from time to time. Just a while back there were a > discussion on what is the difference between God from other AD&D > setting and Immortals, I don't think there were any conclusion > from that discussion. I think that a rough consensus was that they represent the same thing in their game worlds, but use different systems. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 20:18:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 09-Jul-96 02:52 PM > From: Shin Chyang Yu \ Internet: (scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia. edu) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + > Hopefully, this will not get as heated as someother thread :) > My understanding. Originally, it was gods, but in attempt to market the game > to younger and new gamers who (or whose parents) might be upset about the > "pagen" religious content in the game, they change god to immortal and religion > to philosophy. I'm not sure when did the change took place, but you will see > the term god used in earlier stuffs, such as Arm of God, instead of Arm of > Immortal. My guess (just a guess), TSR decided to make the change when > Immortal rules was in progress, as they don't want come out something called > _The God Set_ and have little kids running around screaming "I'm just became a > GOD" after a particularly munchkin game that took the whole party from 3rd to > 36th level plus the immortal quest in one night. However, the transition was > not smooth, and you will ran across conflicting information from time to time. > Just a while back there were a discussion on what is the difference between > God from other AD&D setting and Immortals, I don't think there were any > conclusion from that discussion. - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- My understanding concurs with your understanding. Shelby ------------------------------ From: "D.A.S.O." <910743@CENCO.ULIMA.EDU.PE> Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:14:28 GMT -5 Subject: [Mystara] Gazs Where (in Miami) i can buy Gazs ???????????????? ******************************************************************** * L D.A.S.O. G * _ ________ * 910743@cenco.ulima.edu.pe* _,-'|`||||||||_\___ _,-,_ * Universidad de Lima * | /_`-'||||||||' \\-____/_ __o`-, * Lima-Peru * |[__<|_|||||||| -----.______(=====/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |_\ \------'\____/--------\_,-' * `\`. \-' * \ \ \ * `\`. \` * \ `-.__\ Klingon Bird of Prey - B'Rel Class * \______\ * | ___\ * \(___======][] * `--" * Capitan del NCC-3007 U.S.S RAHASIA * ******************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (Shawn) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:43:04 +0900 Subject: [Mystara] The Level of Immortals Below is a table of the computed activity levels of a number of the immortals from Mystara. For a full description of the table and its' use please see the text after the table. Immortal Name Level YIA Source Error Activity Level Ahmanni Turtlerider *C 1257 BC GAZ14 5 1.619 Al-Kalim 3 1000 AC WOTI 2 0.2 Alphaks 20 1900 BC WOTI 4 1.078 Alphatia 16 1775 BC WOTI 3 1.857 Asterius 27 3500 BC HW 5 0.673 Atruaghin 32 795 BC GAZ14 1 0.154 Atzanteotl 31 1500 BC HW 1 0.235 Benekander 1 3000 BC HW 5 -.--- Calitha Starbrow 18 5000 BC WOTI 5 3.163 Danel Tigerstripes *C 792 BC GAZ14 4 1.287 Diamond 16 700 AC WOTI 5 0.207 Diulanna 18 ?? WOTI ?? Djaea 34 3000 BC WOTI 4 0.293 Eiryndul 20 1300 BC WOTI 5 0.856 Faunus 11 ? WOTI ? Frey/Freyja 13 2400 BC WOTI 5 3.789 Garal Glitterlode *T 3000 BC HW 5 8.911 Great One 26 ?? WOTI ?? Halav 17 1000 BC HW 5 1.182 Hattani Stoneclaw *C 792 BC GAZ14 4 1.287 Hel 36 ? WOTI ? Ilsundal 33 1800 BC HW 1 0.221 Ixion 36 ? WOTI ? Ka 35 ? WOTI ? Kagyar 28 5500 BC WOTI 5 0.845 Karaash 5 ?? WOTI ?? Khoronus 36 4000 BC WOTI 5 0.319 Korotiku 32 ? WOTI ? Koryis 10 1000 BC WOTI 5 4.02 Loki 30 2400 BC WOTI 5 0.352 Mahmatti Running Elk *C 452 BC WOTI 1 1.044 Masauwu 28 1000 BC WOTI 5 0.261 Mealiden Starwatcher 23 250 BC WOTI 1 0.3 Mrikitat *E 491 AC PC4 1 0.150 Noumena 34 500 BC WOTI 4 0.110 Nyx 33 ? WOTI ? Odin 36 ? WOTI ? Opal 13 ?? WOTI ?? Orcus 25 800 BC WOTI 5 0.348 Ordana 31 ? WOTI ? Palartarkan *T 1000 BC HW 5 4.467 Pearl 10 ?? WOTI ?? Petra 17 1000 BC HW 5 1.182 Pflarr 25 1600 BC HW 5 0.502 Protius 29 ? WOTI ? Rad 22 845 AC WOTIf 1 0.045 Rafiel 21 3000 BC HW 1 1.253 Ranivorus *C 900 BC HW 5 1.364 Rathanos 28 3000 BC HW 5 0.521 Razud 31 1500 BC WOTI 5 0.235 Ruaidhri Hawkbane *I 593 AC PC4 1 6.672 Tahkati Stormtamer *C 1675 BC GAZ14 5 1.918 Talitha 25 ?? WOTI ?? Tarastia 30 1800 BC HW 5 0.290 Terra 36 ? WOTI ? Thanatos 35 ? WOTI ? Thor 28 2400 BC HW 5 0.443 Valerias 31 ? WOTI ? Vanya 23 600 BC HW 5 0.383 Wogar *I 1257 BC GAZ14 4 36.272 Yav *C 510 BC CHA 2 1.086 Zirchev 17 1000 BC HW 5 1.182 KEY ?? - Unknown YIA ? - Immortal so old, they have forgotten their mortal existance or immortal very old, that is older than 5000 BC. *I - Level unknown, Initiate *T - Level unknown, Temporal *C - Level unknown, Celestial *E - Level unknown, Empyreal YIA Year Immortality Achieved (year as per Thyatian Calendar) Source WOTI - Wrath of the Immortals, Codex of the Immortals HW - Hollow World Boxed Set, Dungeon Master's Sourcebook GAZxx - Gazetter of the number indicated WOTIf - Wrath of the Immortals, The Immortals' Fury PCx - Creature Cruicible of the number indicated CHA - Champions of Mystara, Explorer's Manual Error Error level in year given as YIA. Error level has a value between one and five with five being attributed to a high error and one to no error. Activity Level Calulated to year 1010 AC when the information for the level of the immortal is most current. It is taken by dividing the number of years the immortal in question has been an immortal by the minimum number of power points (WOTI: 55) that is required to reach their current level minus 300 (the number of power points it takes to be a first level immortal). * - Activity level of immortals where their level is unknown is taken as the mid power point value of the range for that class. For example for a temporal class immortal the number divided by is 450 (midway between the power point minimums for 9th and 10th levels, with the minus 300). NOTES As can be seen many of the actual ages of the immortals have a high degree of error inherant in them. I will not try to explain all the reasonings for the YIA chosen for each immortal but I will explain the choice for some of them to give you an idea of what an error reading of 5 incurs. The Northern Reaches immortals (minus Odin) are all given a YIA of 2400 BC which is a time given in HW when the Antalian tribes were flourishing. The Traldar immortals are all given a YIA of 1000 BC which is a time given in HW when the Traldar lands were invaded by gnolls. Eiryndul is given a YIA of 1300 BC which is midway in between the time when Ilsundal achieved immortality and the time when he affected the elf migration of Mealiden Starwatcher. Razud is a given a YIA of 2500 BC which is 500 years before the Alphatians left their homeworld. Diamond is given a YIA of 700 AC as WOTI said that his immortal existance was 'a few hundred years ago'. I believe the activity level of Diamond may be taken across to the other Dragon immortals since the others have absolutely no restriction on their YIA. Ruaidhri Hawkbane has an error level of 1 since I assume that when he slew the last werehawk he achieved immortality, if this assumption is wrong then the error level would be 5. The list of immortals chosen is taken directly from the WOTI main list which is the reason for the lack of some immortals, the other immortals are generally not chosen as there is very little information which can help attain their YIA and even less on their current level. Some of the other immortals, though, have made it into the list where information does exist on their YIA. A number of these values appear to be a bit high, whether this is the truth or an artefact of the process by which they are found I am uncertain, though they are probably more true than not. The immortals not included include most humanoid immortals, the Red Steel immortals, the Sea People immortals, the Immortal Set Module immortals and random other immortals. USE OF THE TABLE Now that the table is created how does one use it? The easiest use is to identify the immortals who should be the movers and shakers in the gaming world. These immortals are those who have the lower values for the Activity Level. From this we see that Rad, Al-Kalim, Mrikitat, Atruaghin Diamond and Noumena are all very active immortals. Most of these immortals From ???@??? Wed Jul 10 14:41:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA24226; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:32:51 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20601 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:05:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:05:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199607100405.XAA20601@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #156 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7c73f045a0bdab8f6c4c007de69442f8 seem to make sense in this role except for Noumena who is not really mentioned as having done much or being active recently. For this reason alone I believe that Noumena should become much more active in the gaming world - more like Atruaghin. The other immortals, apart from these two, one should note as all becoming immortal recently (all in the AC), and in fact there is only one other who became an immortal in the AC, Ruaidhri Hawkbane. This seems to point out that recent immortals are more active early in their immortal life than older immortals. On the other hand are the largely inactive immortals. Some immortals who have high values like Koryis, Frey/Freyja and Calitha Starbrow are merely not very active immortals. Note - as said above for those immortals who do not have an accurate level they seem to have quite high activity levels as well. Special circumstances like Benekanders' may alter the activity level of other immortals. The actvity level given should not be considered as carved in stone. The more complex use of the table is to see when an immortal should go up another level. To do this the activity level column is used in conjuction with the table in WOTI page 55. Take Ilsundal who needs 14 000 power points to reach the next level (1 000 extra). He has an activity level of 0.221 and has been an immortal for 2 810 years. Using the following equation years + X _________ = activity level pp where years is the amount of years the immortal has been an immortal pp is the amount of power points required to go up a level X is the extra number of years to go up a level activity level is the activity level of the immortal in question Therefore for Ilsundal 2810 + X ________ = 0.221 14 000 Therefore we find X to be 284. This means that Ilsundal should reach the next level in the year 1294 AC. Please write to me with glaring mistakes in my logic. Also if you have accurate (or more accurate) dates or levels for immortals which I do not this would also be appreciated. I can be reached at s9406058@student.anu.edu.au This table as with things like it from digests will be placed on my homepage. I will update this list on that page if new information comes to hand, though I will not bother this list with such minor details. The URL of my homepage is http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 Shawn Stanley s9406058@student.anu.edu.au http://members.tripod.com/~stanles/ http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:04:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + Mystara also has entities known as "Old Ones" who may correspond to the "gods" of other worlds, except that the mortal inhabitants do not worship them and indeed know very little about them. But to the mortal inhabitants of Mystara, the difference between a "god" and a mere "Immortal" is not immediately obvious. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:03:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad In a message dated 96-07-09 04:10:41 EDT, george@msn.fullfeed.com (Windows 95 INNOVA Media User) writes: << You left one out, 4) The Old One (who grabbed Etienne in the first place) makes an example of him to quell the arrogance of the others. >> No way! If the _Mark of Amber_ module is played out, Etienne must return in some form. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:10:17 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Honor Island In a message dated 96-07-09 17:10:25 EDT, acrmarti@snfma1.if.usp.br (Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S) writes: << I have just remembered the mages in Honor Island. Does anybody have any idea about what they are up to there? They were extremely quiet during the whole WotI events and I am sure such a secretive society must have far reaching plans. Sugestions? >> Those Mages have a special relationship with the Elemental Plane of Fire. >From that and other clues, I would suspect that they are followeres of the Immortal Rathanos, who was a member of the Fellowship of the Star (Rad's faction). But these Mages also like to keep to themselves, and everybody else knows it. For the Honor Islanders to get involved in a war, one of three unlikely things would have to happen: 1) Rathanos would point out something in the seas or along the coasts of the Known World that they could and should seize by force. However, the only likely targets that I can see would be Ochalea (their most likely original home - but Ochalea would be much too strong for them) and the undersea remains of Alphatia (but the magical secrets they hold would best be taken by small parties of adventurers, not by armed force). 2) Somebody decides that Honor Island poses a threat to them and attacks. It hasn't happened before -- why should it happen now? The only possibility I see here is the possibility that Honor Island holds some artifact associated with the Radiance -- after all, there is a suspiciously high proportion of spellcasters among the population. 3) Ierendi comes under attack, and Honor Island is called upon to aid in the defense of Ierendi. Honor Island would most likely come to Ierendi's aid unless Rathanos supported the attackers, in which case the most dramatic event of this attack would be the treachery of the Honor Islanders. While war is unlikely, there is another scenario that could involve the Honor Islanders in the Alfheim war. With Rafiel and Rathanos having become friends during WotI, they will have realized that the Shadow Elves and the Honor Islanders each have magical knowledge that would benefit the other. So Rathanos persuades a party of Honor Islanders to sail to Darokin and thence travel overland to Aengmor, where they exchange their information. The effects of this exchange would eventually be exploited by the Immortals of Entropy. At some point during the war, the Shadow Elves would cast a powerful fire-based spell at their enemies. All it would take is a slight shift in the winds, and the Canolbarth forest goes up in flames. The ash from this fire so poisons the soil that no amount of Elven magic can bring the forest back. The war ends in a loss for both sides, as neither the Shadow Elves nor the Alfheim Elves can live in this area of devastation. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 10 02:58:29 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 9 Jul 96 22:58 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19452 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:10:32 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA19413 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:05:37 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03557 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:03:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA09220 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:03:15 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:03:15 -0400 Message-ID: <960709220257_430864960@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad Content-Length: 345 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-09 04:10:41 EDT, george@msn.fullfeed.com (Windows 95 INNOVA Media User) writes: << You left one out, 4) The Old One (who grabbed Etienne in the first place) makes an example of him to quell the arrogance of the others. >> No way! If the _Mark of Amber_ module is played out, Etienne must return in some form. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 10 03:05:00 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 9 Jul 96 23:04 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19917 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:28:33 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA19625 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:16:17 -0500 Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03947 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:09:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA14730 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:10:17 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:10:17 -0400 Message-ID: <960709220434_430864924@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Honor Island Content-Length: 2815 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-09 17:10:25 EDT, acrmarti@snfma1.if.usp.br (Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S) writes: << I have just remembered the mages in Honor Island. Does anybody have any idea about what they are up to there? They were extremely quiet during the whole WotI events and I am sure such a secretive society must have far reaching plans. Sugestions? >> Those Mages have a special relationship with the Elemental Plane of Fire. >From that and other clues, I would suspect that they are followeres of the Immortal Rathanos, who was a member of the Fellowship of the Star (Rad's faction). But these Mages also like to keep to themselves, and everybody else knows it. For the Honor Islanders to get involved in a war, one of three unlikely things would have to happen: 1) Rathanos would point out something in the seas or along the coasts of the Known World that they could and should seize by force. However, the only likely targets that I can see would be Ochalea (their most likely original home - but Ochalea would be much too strong for them) and the undersea remains of Alphatia (but the magical secrets they hold would best be taken by small parties of adventurers, not by armed force). 2) Somebody decides that Honor Island poses a threat to them and attacks. It hasn't happened before -- why should it happen now? The only possibility I see here is the possibility that Honor Island holds some artifact associated with the Radiance -- after all, there is a suspiciously high proportion of spellcasters among the population. 3) Ierendi comes under attack, and Honor Island is called upon to aid in the defense of Ierendi. Honor Island would most likely come to Ierendi's aid unless Rathanos supported the attackers, in which case the most dramatic event of this attack would be the treachery of the Honor Islanders. While war is unlikely, there is another scenario that could involve the Honor Islanders in the Alfheim war. With Rafiel and Rathanos having become friends during WotI, they will have realized that the Shadow Elves and the Honor Islanders each have magical knowledge that would benefit the other. So Rathanos persuades a party of Honor Islanders to sail to Darokin and thence travel overland to Aengmor, where they exchange their information. The effects of this exchange would eventually be exploited by the Immortals of Entropy. At some point during the war, the Shadow Elves would cast a powerful fire-based spell at their enemies. All it would take is a slight shift in the winds, and the Canolbarth forest goes up in flames. The ash from this fire so poisons the soil that no amount of Elven magic can bring the forest back. The war ends in a loss for both sides, as neither the Shadow Elves nor the Alfheim Elves can live in this area of devastation. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 10 03:10:38 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Tue, 9 Jul 96 23:10 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19931 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:29:22 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA19434 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:09:52 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03808 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:05:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA07658 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:04:45 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:04:45 -0400 Message-ID: <960709220226_430864947@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + Content-Length: 318 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Mystara also has entities known as "Old Ones" who may correspond to the "gods" of other worlds, except that the mortal inhabitants do not worship them and indeed know very little about them. But to the mortal inhabitants of Mystara, the difference between a "god" and a mere "Immortal" is not immediately obvious. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:26:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn In a message dated 96-07-09 11:43:27 EDT, kaelin@natural.com (Robert Kaelin) writes: << Someone referred to Rad's return as him again becomming the "most powerful mage in Glantri". Well that's not quite true, he's returned in Mark of Amber to 20th level...so he's weaker then Jaggar and even Synn. (Who's 20th in addition to her Dragon Powers.) Heck, he's not even as tough as Brannart. I know this is an AD&D question, as I'm sure in OD&D he'll be 36th, just like the thousands of other 36th level mages. (OK that's a slight exaggeration, but only a slight one.) So he's not even the most powerful mage then either. Any suggestions? >> I was the one who made that statement, and it is (in AD&D terms) clearly an error. In Gaz 3, Etienne was the most powerful Mage in Glantri, but in the newer AD&D boxed set, there are a few Mages who are above 20th level and/or have access to the "secret crafts". If Etienne still has access to the Radiance, then that access might still make him to most powerful Mage in Glantri (as that access to the Radiance might be enough to compensate for a few levels above 20th and other advantages possessed by possible rivals), but if he has lost access to the Radiance, then there are definitely more powerful Mages than Etienne in Glantri. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #156 ***************************** mystara-digest Wednesday, 10 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 157 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Brohman Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 23:48:38 EDT Subject: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals II + Greetings. Thanks for replying to my earlier post so quickly. Your replies were all informative. However, the reason I posted in the first place was because I noticed authors using both the terem Immortal and God in the same work, many of which are quite recent (such as Poor Wizards III, Joshuan's Almanac and The Shadow Elves Gazeteer from MPGN). This is what I found confusing. Though the reasoning about not wanting to upset parents by using the term God seems right on the money. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 23:52:47 EDT Subject: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + Does anyone use the Armour Value/Armour Class rules from Dawn of the Emperors? If so, how effective do you find them? I was thinking of introducing them to my AD&D2 Mystara campaign starting up in a few weeks and I wanted some info before I made the decision. By the way, don't you think that, with the 'destruction' of Alphatia and the downsizing of the Thyatian Empire that the boxed set should have been called Twighlight of the Emperors? On that note, how much reduced in size is the Thyatian Empire now? Which areas have they lost and which do they retain? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 10 04:19:16 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 10 Jul 96 00:19 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA20425 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:40:04 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA20403 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:32:53 -0500 Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA09025 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:27:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA09772 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:26:43 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:26:43 -0400 Message-ID: <960709231735_234390534@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn Content-Length: 1291 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-09 11:43:27 EDT, kaelin@natural.com (Robert Kaelin) writes: << Someone referred to Rad's return as him again becomming the "most powerful mage in Glantri". Well that's not quite true, he's returned in Mark of Amber to 20th level...so he's weaker then Jaggar and even Synn. (Who's 20th in addition to her Dragon Powers.) Heck, he's not even as tough as Brannart. I know this is an AD&D question, as I'm sure in OD&D he'll be 36th, just like the thousands of other 36th level mages. (OK that's a slight exaggeration, but only a slight one.) So he's not even the most powerful mage then either. Any suggestions? >> I was the one who made that statement, and it is (in AD&D terms) clearly an error. In Gaz 3, Etienne was the most powerful Mage in Glantri, but in the newer AD&D boxed set, there are a few Mages who are above 20th level and/or have access to the "secret crafts". If Etienne still has access to the Radiance, then that access might still make him to most powerful Mage in Glantri (as that access to the Radiance might be enough to compensate for a few levels above 20th and other advantages possessed by possible rivals), but if he has lost access to the Radiance, then there are definitely more powerful Mages than Etienne in Glantri. ------------------------------ From: Rosseroo@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Dungeon #59 - Wreck of the Crimpshrine Hey all, Did anyone read the Karameikos set adventure "Wreck of the Crimshrine" in Dungeon #59? Please send me your comments if you have! tony ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 10 05:21:04 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 10 Jul 96 01:21 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20840 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:30:09 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA20748 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:25:21 -0500 Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA12257 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:19:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA26821 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:20:47 -0400 From: Rosseroo@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:20:47 -0400 Message-ID: <960710002044_354180401@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Dungeon #59 - Wreck of the Crimpshrine Content-Length: 145 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Hey all, Did anyone read the Karameikos set adventure "Wreck of the Crimshrine" in Dungeon #59? Please send me your comments if you have! tony ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:42:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dungeon #59 - Wreck of the Crimpshrine I brought that issue for that adventure, but in that adventure there are very little informantion on Karameiko. It could very well be a generic adventure. Rosseroo@aol.com pontificated: > > Hey all, > > Did anyone read the Karameikos set adventure "Wreck of the Crimshrine" in > Dungeon #59? Please send me your comments if you have! > > tony > - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > I checked the map, there are 3 ToL within the 50 mile limit of one another: > the Mealidil (Mealidor), Long Runner (Pinitel) and Fediael (Feador) trees. > Perhaps the reason ToLs can't be too close to each other because they require ambient natural energy to support them, but in Alfheim, natural energy are so abundunt that the ToLs can be located closer than the 50 mile limit and still absorbe enough energy. Or we can just change the distance limit to 15 miles or so, basically 2 hexs. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 22:42:31 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Level Advancement A few questions: According to the Rules Cyclopedia, it should take around 5 normal adventures to gain a level. Does it take this long for anyone else? Do you actually play for long enough to attain extremely high levels or do you just start a higher level campaign? Thanks for your time, J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn Robert Kaelin pontificated: > Why would Rad try to defeat Synn? Because she's evil? He never wiped out > Brannart or Morphail did he? > > Of course, neither Brannart or Morphail ever had control of a handful of > other princes but I think Rad will be busy trying to rebuild his followers > (most of whom probably lost faith after he dissappeared for a few years) in > the near future. He may drop a hint or two to the other princes, > expecially Jaggar, should she start annoying him, or daring to encroach on > anything he wants, but she's really just another magic using being that's > in a position of power in Glantri. I never thought she was any better > then any of the other arch-mage princes anyway. I don't think Rad cares about good and evil that much, unless the experience with Old Ones really changed him. But with Synn's ambition, it seems just matter of time a conflict of intrest will start between those two. Especially since Synn probably really resent someone as powerful as Etienn returns to Glantri and became a major obstacle to her plan; therefore, might decide to get rid of him as early as possible. > (But in reality Synn wouldn't last an hour against an Immortal, even an > initiate with the experience of a Temporal.) Rad breaks off 6 avatars, (sniped) But an Immortal can't not interfere with mortals in such a direct way. Even though Etienn was not one that generally follows Immortal rules, but I don't think he will so blatantly ignores it so soon after he come back, especially consider the reason for his departure in the first place. > 2) If Rad learned nothing from his encounter with the Old Ones, he may take > more of a lone wolf approach. He could devise a way to drain power from > Immortals himself, with the help of the nucleus of course. He then draws > other immortals, particularly those of Entropy, and even more particularly > those immortals who sent minions to terrorize him in his Old One induced > dream state, into the cavern of the Nucleus and traps them there, Baak > chains, immortal mirror of life trapping, whatever. He then "siphons off" > their power direclty into the nucleus so that the radience energy used by > his followers is replaced immediately from the trapped immortal. (Lesser > immortal beings like titans, fiends and the like may work to a lesser > effect.) Based on Mark of Amber, it sounds like if he didn't change at all, he will not be allow to became an Immortal again. So I don't think this is very likely. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "Peter Donald" Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 05:54:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystics On Tue, 9 Jul 96 18:35:02 EDT, Jody Duncan wrote: > Look, I've said I'm not going to discuss this The last refuge of the scoundrel... >> but I'm not going >to let you try and bait me into a "flame war" as you seem to be trying to >do. Let me point some things out to you. I'm not trying to bait you - you came off rather rude, so I responded in kind. I'm merely trying to enlighten the ignorant (a thankless trap, but one I occasionally, if Quixotically, fall into). >> >You refuse to consider the fact that TSR could >> >have stripped the religious side from the Monk when they turned it into >> >the Mystic because of TSR's moralizing. > >> Not in the slightest, nor is that an argument I've ever made. Ever >> consider actually reading messages before replying? You'll look like >> less of an idiot if you do. > > I've read all the messages. Obviously not mine, or you wouldn't have made such a fool of yourself by putting words in my mouth. Present a single message in which I've claimed the lack of religion in the Mystic class is a result of TSR's moralizing - I merely pointed out that just as humans are not descended from chimpanzees (with the possible exception of Mike Harris), the Mystic is not descended from the Monk; rather, like humans and chimpanzees, they share a common ancestor that predates 'em both. >All you've ever done is get more and more insulting, not >trying to explain anything whatsoever. One more time (I'll try to use words of no more than two syllables in the hope you'll understand) - the Mystic is not based on the AD&D1 Monk; both are based on the Original (not Blue Box/Basic, Original) Monk. Is that clear enough? >Here you've come right out and >blatantly shown your true colours. Yep - I get snarky when attacked and when people put words in my mouth. I don't apologize for this. >I've tried to be mature and discuss >this peacefully Having hopefully made me point, I'll let it lie on the list, but if you still can't figure out what I'm saying I'll be happy to try to continue your education via private mail. ------------------------------ From: Michael.D.Mearls@Dartmouth.EDU (Michael D. Mearls) Date: 10 Jul 96 12:00:29 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement >"J." Ovard wrote: >A few questions: > >According to the Rules Cyclopedia, it should take around 5 normal >adventures to gain a level. Does it take this long for anyone else? > It varies with the level of the characters you are using. 5 adventures to go from 1st to 2nd level seems a bit long to me. I usually award xp more for completing goals or quests than just killing monsters. For instance, when designing a dungeon I may note that striking up an alliance with a group of gnomes that I place in the caverns may be worth a 500 xp bonus to be divided amongst the players, while killing the gnomes or antagonizing them may call for a penalty. I don't think awarding xp based solely on monsters killed or gold gained or any hard and fast formula truly reflects the learning process. >Do you actually play for long enough to attain extremely high levels >or do you just start a higher level campaign? A mixture of the two. If I want to start a campaign, I always start the players at level 1. If I want to run a one shot game or a small series of adventures then I'll start them at whatever level they need to be. I think starting a long term game at levels significantly above one takes away from some of the sense of accomplishment and growth that comes with long term characters. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Lewis Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:57:07 CDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement > A few questions: > > According to the Rules Cyclopedia, it should take around 5 normal > adventures to gain a level. Does it take this long for anyone else? The first couple levels come much faster than that in my campaign, but after 3rd or 4th level, that sounds about right. My players advance roughly every 5th playing session (not necessarily a full adventure each session). > Do you actually play for long enough to attain extremely high levels > or do you just start a higher level campaign? I've done both. I had one that everyone started at 16th level (AD&D, not OD&D), and just dropped the characters into the adventure. I think I learned not to do that again, though, as the players didn't have time to get to know their characters and each other before the action began. My current campaign started at level 1, is currently at about level 3, and I'm hoping to get everyone to level 4 or 5 before the true storyline of the campaign begins. That should take them through level 10 or 11, giving me plenty of time to figure out what to do with them after that. - -- Michael Lewis mslewis@iastate.edu http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mslewis ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] A Call for Mystara Web-Sites.. Mystarans, I am getting ready to rework the Mystara Mailing List web page, and would like to have some links to other pages dedicated to Mystara. So, if you have a page that you would like to be linked to the official mailing list page, drop me a line. I have the URL's for a couple of pages, but I won't be using them unless I hear from the owner; I will only add links to a page if I get e-mail directly from the owner. Some people may not want their pages linked. Thanks. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:36:26 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] ToL location At 01.47 10/07/96 -0400, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: >> >> I checked the map, there are 3 ToL within the 50 mile limit of one another: >> the Mealidil (Mealidor), Long Runner (Pinitel) and Fediael (Feador) trees. >> >Perhaps the reason ToLs can't be too close to each other because they >require ambient natural energy to support them, but in Alfheim, >natural energy are so abundunt that the ToLs can be located closer >than the 50 mile limit and still absorbe enough energy. Or we can >just change the distance limit to 15 miles or so, basically 2 hexs. > Gaz5 says that they can't be too close because they "take too much out of the magic essence of the world when too close together". When too close "they cannot regain their magical abilities and soon lose their immortality and normal invulnerability to plant disease". Gaz5 also points to Gaz3 "for further discussion of the world's inherent magical properties" (i.e. ToL are linked to the Radiance, IMO). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, J. Ovard wrote: > A few questions: > > According to the Rules Cyclopedia, it should take around 5 normal > adventures to gain a level. Does it take this long for anyone else? > Well, I play AD&D rather than OD&D, but my answer would be the same either way. The speed of level advancement depends on the characters' current level. I tend to advance lower level characters more quickly than I do high level ones. I have been known to advance PC's from first to second level after one evening of play, if I felt they did a fine job. With this I should note I do not do experience in the normal way. I do not give experience for killing monsters, finding treasure, and so on. I simply come up with an amount I feel appropriate, based on role-playing and in-game performance. Since I hand out XP's as I feel, I just went ahead and divided the numbers on the charts by one hundred, giving more managable numbers (i.e. a fighter needs 20 points to go to second). > Do you actually play for long enough to attain extremely high levels > or do you just start a higher level campaign? As GM I almost always start campaigns off at low levels, typically first, sometimes second if the number of players is low, or the campaign's going to be a dangerous one. As a player in a long term campaign I would rather start a character at the beginning. It is so much more satisfying to reach higher levels after months or years of play than to just start out there. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: ZDFY66B@prodigy.com (MR JOSEPH M GERBER) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:00:55, -0500 Subject: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn Robert Kaelin wrote: >Unless anyone thinks Synn is a match for >a full party of 36th level characters who know all about her, every power, >every weakness, and have an unseeable, undetectable presence to use as a >spy whenever they want.) Wouldn't her superiors in the sphere of Entropy give her *some* backup? Of course, they might not be happy with the way she bungled getting Henri back as Prince (but by the same token, she probably isn't too happy about the same superiors not telling her about Rad's upcoming return). >(True the 30 pp is a big hit for an initiate so he >may have to wait til he gains a level or two to do it easily, but if >desperate he can do it on day one of his Immortal return.) Out of curiosity, since an Immortal cannot voluntarily spend PP to bring his/her level down, how could a 1st level initiate spend anything on day 1? (And, for that matter, what happens when a 1st level initiate is reduced to <300PP?) Joe Gerber ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:56:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Dave Brohman wrote: > Does anyone use the Armour Value/Armour Class rules from Dawn of the > Emperors? If so, how effective do you find them? I have used them in the past, with a few modifications, and find them to be very interesting. The modifications I use (and the reasons for them) are thus: Instead of magical armor adding to the AC, I use it to add to the AV (ie, Chain mail +2 has an AC of 9 and an AV of 6). My reasoning is that enchanting armor, while making it less encumbering (ie, the reduced enc. thus granted) makes the armor tougher and more resilient, hence it adds to the AV rather than the AC. I also have different AV values depending on the quality of the armor and the material it is made from (ie, mithril armor is stronger than steel). AC is only affected by dexterity, magic (like rings of protection) and shield bonuses. The end result is like is says in the DoE- characters hit and get hit more often, but take less damage, drawing out combats longer. (Incidentally, this helps to offset the Mystic's abilities somewhat, as they get no AV, but high AC- they don't get hit often, but when they do, they take full damage- and it helps characters survive longer against high level mystics- they may get hit often, but take less damage). Oh, and as for the critical hits options it gives, I only allow full damage minus AV on a 19 (if it hits), and full damage bypassing the AV on a 20. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #157 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 12 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 158 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:46:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Honor Island On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > Those Mages have a special relationship with the Elemental Plane of Fire. > From that and other clues, I would suspect that they are followeres of the > Immortal Rathanos, who was a member of the Fellowship of the Star (Rad's > faction). But these Mages also like to keep to themselves, and everybody > else knows it. For the Honor Islanders to get involved in a war, one of > three unlikely things would have to happen: > > 1) Rathanos would point out something in the seas or along the coasts of > the Known World that they could and should seize by force. However, the > only likely targets that I can see would be Ochalea (their most likely > original > home - but Ochalea would be much too strong for them) and the undersea > remains of Alphatia (but the magical secrets they hold would best be taken > by small parties of adventurers, not by armed force). Actually, and this is all IMO, I always thought that the Honor Islanders are in all likelihood Flaemish, having separated from their fellow Flaemish brothers who settled in Glantri. They decided to colonize the relatively isolated Honor Island in Ierendi rather than the (one day to be) Principalities of Glantri. Their association with fire and their relationship with the Plane of Fire is what led me to this conclusion, but YMMV. Anyway, if they were Flaemish, then they could possibly side with their fellows in Glantri during the WoTI. Or, as is more likely the case, they have cut all ties with the Flaemish of Glantri and don't give a damn what happens to them. Just a few ideas... ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:35:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Honor Island Interesting. I looked in Gaz 4 for the reference that suggested that the Honor Islanders might be from Ochalea, and I realized that I had misread it. According to Gaz 4, "The Honor Island mages are refugees from an Alphatian subject nation on an island southeast of the Isle of Dawn." That quote led me to believe that the Honor Islanders were from Ochalea, but a quick check of the map revealed my error: Ochalea is southwest, not southeast, of the Isle of Dawn! According to that quote, the Honor Islanders could only have come from the Alatian Islands. Thus, my suggested association with Ochalea is invalid, but the Rathanos connection still works. The Honor Island mages would then be of predominantly Alphatian ancestry, with a little bit of Thothian blood as well. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:37:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + In a message dated 96-07-10 00:54:44 EDT, dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) writes: << Does anyone use the Armour Value/Armour Class rules from Dawn of the Emperors? If so, how effective do you find them? I was thinking of introducing them to my AD&D2 Mystara campaign starting up in a few weeks and I wanted some info before I made the decision.>> I used it in my own campaign, and I can't say that I was too happy with the results. Rather than increasing the realism of AD&D combat, it seemed to me to distort things even worse. The chief problem is that this Armor Value system does not fit into the overall combat system of D&D as well as it does in games such as _Runequest_. My recommendation is to stick with the straight THAC0/AC system. <> That is what I saw the boxed set referred to in some Gazettteers that came out months before that boxed set. Given the events of WotI, the original title would have been more appropriate. <> Let's see: Thyatis definitely lost Ochalea, the Pearl Islands, and the northern part of the Isle of Dawn but retained the mainland territory and the Hinterlands. In 1010-1013 AC they attempted to conquer the southern part of the Isle of Dawn as well as several islands that used to be part of the Alphatian Empire. As of the end of 1013 AC they had been driven out of most of these territories but held some of the southwestern part of the Isle of Dawn. Barring any unexpected future events, it appears likely that the Thyatian Empire will remain stable within its current borders for a while. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jul 11 01:45:41 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 10 Jul 96 21:45 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA27682 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:53:48 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA27654 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:45:58 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25385 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:36:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA14525 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:35:12 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:35:12 -0400 Message-ID: <960710203511_431590326@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Honor Island Content-Length: 781 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Interesting. I looked in Gaz 4 for the reference that suggested that the Honor Islanders might be from Ochalea, and I realized that I had misread it. According to Gaz 4, "The Honor Island mages are refugees from an Alphatian subject nation on an island southeast of the Isle of Dawn." That quote led me to believe that the Honor Islanders were from Ochalea, but a quick check of the map revealed my error: Ochalea is southwest, not southeast, of the Isle of Dawn! According to that quote, the Honor Islanders could only have come from the Alatian Islands. Thus, my suggested association with Ochalea is invalid, but the Rathanos connection still works. The Honor Island mages would then be of predominantly Alphatian ancestry, with a little bit of Thothian blood as well. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jul 11 01:48:07 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from IO.COM by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 10 Jul 96 21:48 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA27677 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:53:36 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA27651 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:44:36 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25487 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:37:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA01861 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:37:56 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:37:56 -0400 Message-ID: <960710203637_431590262@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@IO.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + Content-Length: 1873 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@IO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@IO.COM In a message dated 96-07-10 00:54:44 EDT, dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) writes: << Does anyone use the Armour Value/Armour Class rules from Dawn of the Emperors? If so, how effective do you find them? I was thinking of introducing them to my AD&D2 Mystara campaign starting up in a few weeks and I wanted some info before I made the decision.>> I used it in my own campaign, and I can't say that I was too happy with the results. Rather than increasing the realism of AD&D combat, it seemed to me to distort things even worse. The chief problem is that this Armor Value system does not fit into the overall combat system of D&D as well as it does in games such as _Runequest_. My recommendation is to stick with the straight THAC0/AC system. <> That is what I saw the boxed set referred to in some Gazettteers that came out months before that boxed set. Given the events of WotI, the original title would have been more appropriate. <> Let's see: Thyatis definitely lost Ochalea, the Pearl Islands, and the northern part of the Isle of Dawn but retained the mainland territory and the Hinterlands. In 1010-1013 AC they attempted to conquer the southern part of the Isle of Dawn as well as several islands that used to be part of the Alphatian Empire. As of the end of 1013 AC they had been driven out of most of these territories but held some of the southwestern part of the Isle of Dawn. Barring any unexpected future events, it appears likely that the Thyatian Empire will remain stable within its current borders for a while. ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 0:30:18 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] A Call for Mystara Web-Sites.. Leroy Van Camp III writes: > Mystarans, > I am getting ready to rework the Mystara Mailing List web page, and > would like to have some links to other pages dedicated to Mystara. So, if > you have a page that you would like to be linked to the official mailing > list page, drop me a line. What is the address for the list web page? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] A Call for Mystara Web-Sites.. On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Dave Brohman wrote: > Leroy Van Camp III writes: > > > Mystarans, > > > I am getting ready to rework the Mystara Mailing List web page, and > > would like to have some links to other pages dedicated to Mystara. So, if > > you have a page that you would like to be linked to the official mailing > > list page, drop me a line. > > What is the address for the list web page? The Mystara Mailing List web page is at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm ...and is rather boring at the moment. I hope to spice it up soon, including such things as frames and tables. It's just a matter of time. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:05:10 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] ToL location F. Paoli wrote > Gaz5 says that they can't be too close because they "take too much out of > the magic essence of the world when too close together". When too close > "they cannot regain their magical abilities and soon lose their immortality > and normal invulnerability to plant disease". Gaz5 also points to Gaz3 "for > further discussion of the world's inherent magical properties" (i.e. ToL are > linked to the Radiance, IMO). about the linking between Radience and ToLs I (IMHO) think you have made an overly harsh linking here. Surely the ToLs and the Nucleus work similarly, draining energy and changing it to an other form of energy. But that it propably that. There seems to bee no similarity From ???@??? Sun Jul 14 12:51:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA17730; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:21:23 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA07118 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:55:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:55:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199607120555.AAA07118@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #158 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 901789f728b27736b06b7e3a7522d817 between the radience, and the powers of the trees. After all, otherwise Ilsundal would surely have been on Rads side in WoTI. Futher proof might to be the saying that when too close to each other (ie. when over using the energy) the trees wont stay working. So the trees are artifacts using the normal energy to work. Depending of the normal magic. While as the nucleus seems to have an other form of powersource (inner powersource, the nuclear powerplant) it uses to work and to drain the energy. So not depending on the magic itself. So the radience would eventually have killed the ToLs too. And that seems to be the only link between the power of the trees and the radience, except for the similar (but so different) function of the trees and the nucleus. Just some thoughts... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: "Nightshade" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:26:37 AST Subject: RCPT: [Mystara] Gazs Confirmation of reading: your message - Date: 9 Jul 96 20:14 To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Gazs Was read at 11:26, 11 Jul 96. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:51:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn Snipits from responses. Shin Chyang Yu wrote >> (But in reality Synn wouldn't last an hour against an Immortal, even an >> initiate with the experience of a Temporal.) Rad breaks off 6 avatars, > (sniped) >But an Immortal can't not interfere with mortals in such a direct >way. Even though Etienn was not one that generally follows >Immortal rules, but I don't think he will so blatantly ignores it >so soon after he come back, especially consider the reason for >his departure in the first place. I looked into this one. According to both WotI and the old Gold Box rules there is no way available to either mortals or immortals that can determine that a mortal is, in reality, the mortal identity of an Immortal. They are completely unrecognizble, even to Hierarchs, as normal mortals. As long as Rad doesn't use immortal level spells, he could create an entire army of mortal identities (well with the PP available and within his Avatar allowance) and send them against any mortal he wishes. (He can also lure Synn to another plane, where the rules for immortal interaction don't apply, and just kill her face to face. Although he's safer off hiding behind 6 36th level mages, it could always be explained as a left over strike force from Alphatia's council of 1000 36th level mages that didn't go down with their continent.) To put it another way. So it's ok for Rad to run a country for 150 years as a mortal but he can't kill one annoying Night Dragon? :-) >> He then "siphons off" >> their power direclty into the nucleus so that the radience energy used by >> his followers is replaced immediately from the trapped immortal. (Lesser >> immortal beings like titans, fiends and the like may work to a lesser >> effect.) > >Based on Mark of Amber, it sounds like if he didn't change at all, he >will not be allow to became an Immortal again. So I don't think this >is very likely. An excellent point, this would probably wouldn't happen. (Although there's no proof he won't revert back to his old ways in a century or two.) MR JOSEPH M GERBER wrote >>Unless anyone thinks Synn is a match for >>a full party of 36th level characters who know all about her, every power, >>every weakness, and have an unseeable, undetectable presence to use >>as a >>spy whenever they want.) > >Wouldn't her superiors in the sphere of Entropy give her *some* >backup? Of course, they might not be happy with the way she bungled >getting Henri back as Prince (but by the same token, she probably >isn't too happy about the same superiors not telling her about Rad's >upcoming return). They might, but I never imagined Rad would either be so obvious as to give her the time to ask or receive any backup, or be so stupid as to allow her to. (There are a few AD&D spells that prevent summoning, teleporting or plane travelling. Walls with no doors is a good Glantri spell like this, and it's only 4th level. I'm sure Rad wouldn't be too far pressed to come up with an 8th or 9th level version that can completely cut her off from her Entropy buddies.) >>(True the 30 pp is a big hit for an initiate so he >>may have to wait til he gains a level or two to do it easily, but >>if desperate he can do it on day one of his Immortal return.) > >Out of curiosity, since an Immortal cannot voluntarily spend PP to >bring his/her level down, how could a 1st level initiate spend >anything on day 1? (And, for that matter, what happens when a 1st >level initiate is reduced to <300PP?) It depends on how your DM handles it. As a DM who's run a basic Immortal campaign I have allowed new Initiates to go below their starting PP by as much as they want as long as they don't hit zero PP. (Which I believe is death for an Immortal.) I decided to do this so that starting immortals could improve their stats, ac, or make basic artifact weapons/armor at first level. (They have to pay for it back by regaining all that with xp before they can make 2nd anyway.) I could certainly understand other DM's ruling that initiate can't spend PP until they gain some through adventures. In this case, and based on how much PP Rad had accumulated during his relatively short reign as an Immortal (compared to other immortals), it would probably only take Rad a few months, if that, to gain the 30 PP required. Then he could wipe Synn out. :-) - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 23:26:51 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Gods and Immortals + Kaviyd@aol.com writes: > > Mystara also has entities known as "Old Ones" who may correspond to > the "gods" of other worlds, except that the mortal inhabitants do not worship > them and indeed know very little about them. But to the mortal inhabitants > of Mystara, the difference between a "god" and a mere "Immortal" is not > immediately obvious. I think the Old Ones are more akin to entities such as Ao in the Forgotten Realms. The immortals are equivalent to gods. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:36:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn In a message dated 96-07-11 18:30:48 EDT, kaelin@natural.com (Robert Kaelin) writes: << To put it another way. So it's ok for Rad to run a country for 150 years as a mortal but he can't kill one annoying Night Dragon? :-) >> It is not okay for Rad to rule Glantri or to kill the Night Dragon -- but it is perfectly acceptable for Etienne to do both. In other words, he may do virtually anything in his mortal Identity of Etienne, but he cannot act in his Manifestation form. ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 23:43:59 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement J." Ovard writes: > > A few questions: > > According to the Rules Cyclopedia, it should take around 5 normal > adventures to gain a level. Does it take this long for anyone else? > > Do you actually play for long enough to attain extremely high levels > or do you just start a higher level campaign? I normally have my PC's gain a level about every two adventures, sometimes I let them gain one per adventure, when things are slow and we aren't palying very often. Of course I make those adventures worth it though... :) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 23:42:00 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + Dave Brohman writes: > > Does anyone use the Armour Value/Armour Class rules from Dawn of the > Emperors? If so, how effective do you find them? > > I was thinking of introducing them to my AD&D2 Mystara campaign starting up > in a few weeks and I wanted some info before I made the decision. I used to use the Armor Value system and it worked fine... for awhile. What I found is that it looks and sounds fine, in theory. But when you try to use it things fall apart. When your PC's are just fighting humans everything works out fine, it's when you start fighting monsters that things get confusing. What do you do? Keep their AC and give them an AV of 0? Make up an AV that seems reasonable and then add it to the AC? How do you know what their AV/AC should be? My big problem is that I would come up with an AV for a creature at one point and then the next time my PC's encountered the creature, I'd forgotten what AV I used and ended up coming up with a different one for the same creature. This lead to me writing them all down for each creature they fought, so as to have them for later, which led to a *LOT* of bookkeeping for me, which led to me abandoning that system and just sticking with the less realistic, plain and simple, no bookkeeping AC system... Trust me it gets to be *WAY* to much work... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (Shawn) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:42:26 +1000 Subject: [Mystara] Toowin Travels stuff Who did or how were the maps of Toowin's Travels made? Shawn Stanley s9406058@student.anu.edu.au http://members.tripod.com/~stanles/ http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jul 12 04:48:34 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 12 Jul 96 00:48 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA06545 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:53:51 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA06513 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:42:36 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA29049 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:37:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24933 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:36:01 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:36:01 -0400 Message-ID: <960711233601_574974684@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn Content-Length: 482 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-11 18:30:48 EDT, kaelin@natural.com (Robert Kaelin) writes: << To put it another way. So it's ok for Rad to run a country for 150 years as a mortal but he can't kill one annoying Night Dragon? :-) >> It is not okay for Rad to rule Glantri or to kill the Night Dragon -- but it is perfectly acceptable for Etienne to do both. In other words, he may do virtually anything in his mortal Identity of Etienne, but he cannot act in his Manifestation form. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #158 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 12 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 159 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion > > That would leaves us with two blocks: > > 1-Alfheim(in exile), Ylaruam, Ethengar, Rockhome, Karameikos > > 2-Shadow Elves, Glantri, maybe Broken Lands (Kol) IMO, if this war started, there are no chance Darokin can remain neutral. As the invading armies have to cross its soil. If they allows armies go through their country to invade the Shadow Elves, they might still able to claim neutrality, but it gives the SE more than enough reason to attack it. I'm not sure Karameikos have enough military strength to be involoved in this war. They were never very strong before, and now after the Great War and their own small civil war (and a holy war on harizone), I don't think they can spare any troops to help the Elves. Especially they have to be more careful with their eastern border than ever before. Ethengar, I'm not sure of, they like war, and might need one to keep their country together, but this war seems to have little to offer for them, and it will be fought in a environment that they are not good at (cavary in forest). An Alfheim/Rockhome alliance, however, will make a great story. As for the Shadow Elves side, I'm not sure how many humanoids in Broken Land can put their hatre towards Elves aside to fight a war with them. But they going to be killing Elves AND Dwarves, so maybe they will sign up. I think Glantri's support will be split between two sides and might end up fighting a civil war in their own country instead. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: mystara-mail@fishys.jammys.net (postmaster) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 00:47:33 EST Subject: [Mystara] Return of Rad My vote would be for the second of the three options. Like others have pointed out, most players will tend to wind up with that result anyways if the adventure is played out. But I also agree that Etienne d'Ambreville would remain hidden afterwards, trying to decide what has happened and how to re-introduce himself into everything. More than likely, having once been an Immortal, he would rather achieve Immortality again as he probably feels "weak" now. Not that a 36 level mage (or 20 if playing AD&D version) is weak, but it is quite a drop compared to the powers of an Immortal. That way, it can give a lot of flexibility for DMs to customize the adventure's results as they want it, deciding whether or not he returns as an Immortal or not, and have him appear several years later once he has achieved Immortality. As for those who make him come back as an Immortal, he is probably still hiding to see what the other Immortals (such as Ixion) are up to, wondering how they will react to his return, and so on, so spends his time hiding from them as well... One last note, however, is that rumors are more than likely to go around Glantri during the summer of AC 1013 when he does return, as there were many witnesses who saw him at the end of Mark Of Amber. Although the nobles allied with the d'Ambrevilles would probably remain silent, most of the staff would talk about it... but after a few months without seeing any other sign of Etienne, most other Princes would laugh off the rumor as another one of the wacky stuns the crazy, err, eccentric d'Ambrevilles pull. Kallatari Hopstride Michael Roy "I am not a thief!" mroy@fishys.jammys.net mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ From: mystara-mail@fishys.jammys.net (postmaster) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 01:27:08 EST Subject: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion Most of the original message was cut as it would be too long to quote, but it's sumed up as: AM> That would leaves us with two blocks: AM> 1-Alfheim(in exile), Ylaruam, Ethengar, Rockhome, Karameikos AM> 2-Shadow Elves, Glantri, maybe Broken Lands (Kol) AM> And, certainly, thyatian agents would be eager to destroy the Western AM> Defense League. AM> What about it? AM> Andre Martins AM> acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br As a potential good campaign, I think the plan is good, and can lead to some interesting gaming. As a likely future for Mystara, I disagree completly. But each DM should run his campaign as he sees it... here is why I disagree: From the start as I fail to see the link between Rad and Rafiel. First of all, Rad is gone. Yes, he has returned as Etienne d'Ambreville in AC 1013, but odds are he is not an Immortal at that stage unless you have exceptional PCs for the "Mark of Amber" adventure. Even if he was an Immortal again, the text given in the "Poor Wizard's Almanac III" and "Joshuan's Almanac" do not mention him at all, which means he has gone into hiding for some reason or other. He wouldn't show himself now to help the shadow elves. Still, back to my point, Rad and Rafiel are not allies. Quote from Wrath of the Immortals: "Rad had no specific allies... He and Rafiel are friendly because of their shared interest in the effects of the Radiance,..." Rafiel joined the Fellowship of the Star simply for the sake of the Radiance, not for Rad. Rafiel only cares about his Shadow elves, as proven by the fact that he has no allie Immortals either. Rad has no reason to help the elves, and Rafiel is not the type to ask help from others as he's a loner and independant. Another reason is that the elves of Alfheim will not move in a large assault on Aengmor (the nation, not city) for a while as they wish to slowly gather their strength and intelligence on the shadow elves. This was stated in one of the "Poor Wizard's Almanacs" when it mentions the formation of the Alfheim avengers. The young, hot-headed elves want action now so form the Avengers, but the leaders and elders want to take their time. So odds are the elves wouldn't even attack in the first place, so there won't even be a war. The Alfheim Avengers, however, might make raids, but not cause enough damage to be considered a war. Besides, the shadow elves of the nation of Aengmor has started a peace treaty in AC 1013 and invited the elves to move back in and discuss how they can share Alfheim. Another main reason is that the Shadow elves have their own troubles to worry about. They're heading for a civil war, which Kanafasti is going to lead, and they really wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight seeing how they will be fighting each other. My interpretation on the civil war has to do with the predictions given at the end of "Joshuan's Almanac" as well as simply viewing the characters and their desires. First of all, all the Shadow elf rulers dislike the Way of Rafiel and would get rid of it if they could, but fear to oppose the shamans. Kanafasti, the Royal Wizard, turns 800 years old in AC 1014 wich turns him into a wanderer, which he doesn't want to be. The solution becomes rather simple... he makes a 10th-level spell to raise Aengmor (the city this time) back to the surface, were he declares it independant from the shamans and the Way of Rafiel. That way, he gets to stay. King Telemon, also believing Rafiel to be outdated, would go along with it... Radiant Princess Tanadaleyo, wanting a nation of her own, would use the turmoil to make the nation of Aengmor independant as well. The shamans, although outraged, will be unable to do much about it as they cannot cast spells on the surface since they need their soul gems to cast spells, which are destroyed by sunlight. Of course, the whole thing is probably engineered by Xatapechtli, leader of the Feathered Serpents, doing so because his cloak is urging him to... the same cloak which has made him start converting shadow elves to the worship of Atzanteolt. Most of the info here, mainly names and personalities/desires (but not including my predictions) comes from "GAZ 13: The Shadow Elves" and is also available for download at MPGN on the web as an official TSR document (written/edited by Moore I believe...) So with all that, I doubt the shadow elves would go for a great war either, although the new QUEEN Tanadaleyo of Aengmor would more than likely defend her forest with her troops and followers if attacked... I fail to see Ylaruam in the battle either, as desert warriors would not ride out into the forest for many reasons... the Desert Garden Dream would be one, but odds are it is not something that Ilsundal can solve for Al-Kalim. Rockhome is too paranoid of anyone to help others, let alone other ELVES!!! (even if they aren't shadow elves) Ethengar will more than likely invade Glantri, but for it's own reasons, not to join a large war. It would more be it's own little revenge war on Glantri now the the Heldannic Knights have bowed down to their greatness (or so their Golden Khan would have them believe). As for Specularum, that I can't predict what would happen there, so it is possible they would join the war... if there was one. Anyways, that's my opinion... Kallatari Hopstride Michael Roy "I am not a thief!" mroy@fishys.jammys.net mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:13:32 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion At 01.27 12/07/96 EST, Michael Roy wrote: > > As a potential good campaign, I think the plan is good, and can lead >to some interesting gaming. As a likely future for Mystara, I disagree >completly. But each DM should run his campaign as he sees it... here is why I >disagree: > > From the start as I fail to see the link between Rad and Rafiel. >First of all, Rad is gone. Yes, he has returned as Etienne d'Ambreville in >AC 1013, but odds are he is not an Immortal at that stage unless you have >exceptional PCs for the "Mark of Amber" adventure. Even if he was an Immortal >again, the text given in the "Poor Wizard's Almanac III" and "Joshuan's >Almanac" do not mention him at all, which means he has gone into hiding for >some reason or other. He wouldn't show himself now to help the shadow elves. Here I agree. > Still, back to my point, Rad and Rafiel are not allies. Quote from >Wrath of the Immortals: "Rad had no specific allies... He and Rafiel are >friendly because of their shared interest in the effects of the Radiance,..." >Rafiel joined the Fellowship of the Star simply for the sake of the Radiance, >not for Rad. Rafiel only cares about his Shadow elves, as proven by the fact >that he has no allie Immortals either. But Codex of Immortals is set before WotI; I mean: after 9 years working together on the Radiance they should be something more than "friendly". > Rad has no reason to help the elves, and Rafiel is not the type to ask >help from others as he's a loner and independant. IIRC it's Rafiel and Rathanos(??) (fellow Immortals of Energy) that send the PC to help Rad in Mark of Amber (through Petit-Singe, Camille and the Lady of the Unicorn). So, Rad owe them a big favour. > > Another reason is that the elves of Alfheim will not move in a large >assault on Aengmor (the nation, not city) for a while as they wish to slowly >gather their strength and intelligence on the shadow elves. This was stated >in one of the "Poor Wizard's Almanacs" when it mentions the formation of the >Alfheim avengers. The young, hot-headed elves want action now so form the >Avengers, but the leaders and elders want to take their time. So odds are the >elves wouldn't even attack in the first place, so there won't even be a war. >The Alfheim Avengers, however, might make raids, but not cause enough damage >to be considered a war. > Besides, the shadow elves of the nation of Aengmor has started a peace >treaty in AC 1013 and invited the elves to move back in and discuss how they >can share Alfheim. > I agree on Alfheim Elves and Shadow Elves signing a peace treaty in the future, but I don't they'll ever live together in the Canolbarth Forest. > Another main reason is that the Shadow elves have their own troubles >to worry about. They're heading for a civil war, which Kanafasti is going to >lead, and they really wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight seeing how >they will be fighting each other. > My interpretation on the civil war has to do with the predictions >given at the end of "Joshuan's Almanac" as well as simply viewing the >characters and their desires. First of all, all the Shadow elf rulers dislike >the Way of Rafiel and would get rid of it if they could, but fear to oppose >the shamans. Kanafasti, the Royal Wizard, turns 800 years old in AC 1014 wich >turns him into a wanderer, which he doesn't want to be. The solution becomes >rather simple... he makes a 10th-level spell to raise Aengmor (the city this >time) back to the surface, were he declares it independant from the shamans >and the Way of Rafiel. That way, he gets to stay. King Telemon, also >believing Rafiel to be outdated, would go along with it... Radiant Princess >Tanadaleyo, wanting a nation of her own, would use the turmoil to make the >nation of Aengmor independant as well. The shamans, although outraged, will >be unable to do much about it as they cannot cast spells on the surface since >they need their soul gems to cast spells, which are destroyed by sunlight. >Of course, the whole thing is probably engineered by Xatapechtli, leader of >the Feathered Serpents, doing so because his cloak is urging him to... the >same cloak which has made him start converting shadow elves to the worship of >Atzanteolt. These ideas are very interesting, but why should Kanafasti raise Aengmor to the surface (probably with the help of Atzanteotl), when he can just settle in Aengmor (the nation) if he wants to be free from the Shamans and the Way of Rafiel ? Anyway I must admit that this fits perfectly with the predictions of JA. I agree on Tanadaleyo wanting an independent nation, but before declaring independence she has to solve more important problems, such as rainfalls and the peace with ex-Alfheimers. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:55:32 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6FDA.230B08E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Does anyone use the Armour Value/Armour Class rules from Dawn of the Emperors? If so, how effective do you find them? I have been using it since it was first suggested and like it a lot. George - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6FDA.230B08E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjgPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAMAAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gKyBBcm1vdXIg VmFsdWUgYW5kIEFybW91ciBDbGFzcyArANIPAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcHAAwACAA3ACAABQBKAQEggAMA DgAAAMwHBwAMAAgANgASAAUAOwEBCYABACEAAAA5NTMwREFCN0JGREJDRjExOUJFQzQ0NDU1MzU0 From ???@??? Sun Jul 14 12:52:23 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA27009; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 03:27:03 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA09743 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:54:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:54:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199607121654.LAA09743@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #159 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 51ea8ab70c0bc18b81e753bc09fae388 MDAwMAAtBwEDkAYA1AIAABAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQCg xRHL+W+7AR4AcAABAAAAMAAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gKyBBcm1vdXIgVmFsdWUgYW5kIEFybW91 ciBDbGFzcyArAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7b/nLEbfaMJbbvxHPm+xERVNUAAAAAAMABhBiHLoFAwAH EKIAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABIRUxMTyxET0VTQU5ZT05FVVNFVEhFQVJNT1VSVkFMVUUvQVJNT1VS Q0xBU1NSVUxFU0ZST01EQVdOT0ZUSEVFTVBFUk9SUz9JRlNPLEhPV0VGRkVDVElWRURPWU9VRklO RFRIAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAdwEAAHMBAACjAgAATFpGdWDGiD3/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNo CsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EWDzI1NQKACoEN sQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRRhQvyYwBAIEhlbBWgBiwKhQqLbGkxODDBAtFpLTE0NA3wDNBXHTMZ3BNQ bxPQYwVARBZvB5EAcHkCIGUgdfERsCB0aB/wBxAEYAhwrCBWB0AKUC8glUMLYHEEEXJ1bAeRA1If QGEydwOgb2YgQhvNMzZjHd8e5UVtcASQBbBzUD8gIEkjQHMbMCCcaG8H4A3BHxFpdh/waGRvIB/A dSKAC4Bk+SBCbT8KjxocI58krhqy6kknMGEn8WIJ4SABC4DYZyBpBUAuQWMf8C6RHnch8CiBEaAu oXVnZ78HkBPQKMAAcCjAHJBrLwOWYTDAHvAuG1xHZQWwfzAgJL8e9CsvJK0bthUxAAE3IAADABAQ AAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMAAWk575b7sBQAAIMAAWk575b7sBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAABQ wg== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6FDA.230B08E0-- ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:52:47 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Getting rid off Synn [Was: Return of Rad] - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6FDA.1510D940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy, I wish I could get rid of Windows 95 INNOVA Media User but it seems I am stuck with it. On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Windows 95 INNOVA Media User wrote: > Do you really believe it to be easy to take Synn down? > She rules a kingdom of undead, she has followers and > spies everywhere, she has enormous influence in many > lands, is an accomplished sorceress in her own right, and > the Old Ones alone know how many other personas she > has stashed about. Not a foe I would choose willingly. Here's an idea- Why doesn't someone tell her where Haldemar has gone? She'll go screaming offf to the Hollow World for revenge on her age old enemy, and no one has to worry about dealing with her... except Haldemar, but he's a big boy. ;) Age old enemy??? I thought it was only recent since Haldemar invaded her domain and slew one or more of her kids. In any case I think she has bigger fish to fry... 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Does it take this long for anyone else? This LONG? I find a level every five games to be quite fast. Do you actually play for long enough to attain extremely high levels or do you just start a higher level campaign? If a character is worth playing, it is worth playing for a long time. 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If the _Mark of Amber_ module is played out, Etienne must return in some form. I have avoided, with great success, the "new" releases from TSR on Mystara. The price in return for what you get, you know. I have, therefore, not seen the details of the Mark of Amber. I thought it was a rehash of the Castle of Amber module from way back (same story line, bringing Etienne back after his dissappearance. Correct me if I am wrong. 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If so, how effective do you find them? > > I was thinking of introducing them to my AD&D2 Mystara campaign starting up > in a few weeks and I wanted some info before I made the decision. I used to use the Armor Value system and it worked fine... for awhile. What I found is that it looks and sounds fine, in theory. But when you try to use it things fall apart. When your PC's are just fighting humans everything works out fine, it's when you start fighting monsters that things get confusing. What do you do? Keep their AC and give them an AV of 0? Make up an AV that seems reasonable and then add it to the AC? How do you know what their AV/AC should be? My big problem is that I would come up with an AV for a creature at one point and then the next time my PC's encountered the creature, I'd forgotten what AV I used and ended up coming up with a different one for the same creature. This lead to me writing them all down for each creature they fought, so as to have them for later, which led to a *LOT* of bookkeeping for me, which led to me abandoning that system and just sticking with the less realistic, plain and simple, no bookkeeping AC system... Trust me it gets to be *WAY* to much work... Here is what I do for this problem. If the creature is tough and not particularly fast or agile (from its description) I simply use its AC to determine an AV (9 - AC) and give it a new AC of 0. If it is fast or agile rather than tought, then I leave it alone and give it an AV 0. If it is BOTH tough and fast or agile then I will give it both the listed AC and the calculated AV (as described above). 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I simply want to state the reasons for my use of mystics in a more general way than what you suggest. Whether the Mystic class was intended to emulate the Shao-Lin or whatever is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. IMHO I think the D&D system falls short of portraying Shao-Lin as anything other than bare-hand fighters with some special powers, but that is the subject for another posting. You are correct that there are fighting clerics. That is not what I am trying to model here. If you look at a historical group like the Knights Templar, they were not priests themselves (though there were priests among them, it was not the rule). They dedicated themselves to the defense of the church as they saw it. To me this is a good example of an order of mystics (using the general term to describe one who delves into mysticism). Not all mystics in my game are concerned with fighting, some are healers, some are scholars. It depends upon the Immortal patron of their order. Korotiku, for example, has his order specialize in a style of kick boxing (all those legs...). You get the idea. Not to start another one of the endless debates on this list, but I would like to clarify what I said earlier. I never suggested that there was no precedent for disciplined religious orders of warriors in Europesque settings. What I did say was that the Mystic class is intended to emulate Asian martial arts and as such is inappropriate for fighting styles which do not primarily rely on unarmed combat and mind-body discipline. A perfect model for Vanya's followers already exists - the cleric class, which after all was originally based on groups like the Templars who also served as the model for the Heldannic Knights! These followers are skilled in the use of heavy arms and armor as well as having the ability to channel miraculous powers from Vanya - spells. This is far more logical, consistent, and interesting, than taking the old OD&D Mystic or AD&D1 Monk and adding a longsword, which is essentially what the Mystic of Vanya is. Excuse me , I'm getting carried away here and being as rude as the rest of the boors on this list. I apologize. However, I do maintain that the best way to keep classes and types special in D&D is not to universalize them. Mystics in Ochalea and Lhamsa are a fascinating curiosity. Mystics in endless variations across Mystara in every country become just another character class to minmax combat damage. For the same reason I support local variations on spell ability., regional wizard specialist schools, differing access to clerical spheres for different religions, even different thief skill profiles for different types of thieves. I think the Skills & POwers book is a pretty good start at this. m@2 I apologize if I gave the impression that Mystics are simply fighters. Though I do see how it happened. In the future I will likely post other mystic types to offset the combatant Mystic of Vanya. 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Your replies were all >informative. > >However, the reason I posted in the first place was because I noticed >authors using both the terem Immortal and God in the same work, many of >which are quite recent (such as Poor Wizards III, Joshuan's Almanac and >The Shadow Elves Gazeteer from MPGN). > >This is what I found confusing. Though the reasoning about not wanting to >upset parents by using the term God seems right on the money. I'd have to look at their contexts to give you a better opinion but to guess without going back and rereading them I'd say it's a combination of 2 things. The first reason is probably because AD&D has always used the term god and all the the products you mentioned had been updated when Mystara was an AD&D world so it was morally ok to use the word god. So essentially, they weren't under as much moral pressure as they were 5-10 years ago and stopped caring if a God slipped by in place of Immortal. The other thing to remember is that from the point of view of the mortals of Mystara Immortal's are Gods; they grant spells, they have clerics, and they usually strictly adhere to promoting one mundane or universal force. Only instead of Gods of love, death and war we have patron immortals of Alphatia, the Sun, Thyatsis, Entropy, Energy, Matter...etc. Since it's odd for us to imagine that Mystaran's do not have the word, "god", in their vocabularies (and in "reality" they very well might not), we have to assume they would apply that word to the Immortals. Who else would they use it to describe? - -Bob ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:23:57 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] XSOLO, and the Sea of Dread As promised, here's a sort of ASCII map of the Sea of Dread. Each "character" is a single day's worth of sailing. The "Impenetrable Storm" and "Impenetrable Reef" were devices used to keep the player from sailing off the map, and should probably be ignored.. :) - ------------------ - - d s k - - - iiiiiimmm T S- - - iIii mM t tS- - - Rii iimmmmtpttS- - - RRii mtptS - - - RR 1 S - - - r - - -3r 2 S - - - r 4 S - - - r 5 cBS - - - R6 7 S - - - RRR W SS - - - RdDaaaaa S - - ------------------ d: Fort Doom (aka Halag) s: Specularum (aka Mirros) k: Kerendas i: Ierendi islands m: Minrothad islands T: Coast of Thyatis S: Impenetrable Storm I: Ierendi M: Minrothad t: Thyatis islands R: impenetrable Reef p: Thyatian peninsula r: penetrable Reef c: dark cloud (a dense gray cloud of dust and gases, coming from the island to the east. Save vs poison or die from the fumes.) W: deadly Whirlpool (your ship sinks, taking your character with it) a: Thanegoith archipelago 1: Termite Atoll (Salt water termites attack any ships at anchor. 2: Insect Island (Watch your rations: worms and beetles will infest them.) 3: Three Sisters Keys (rumored to be magical, nobody has ever found anything here... except those with a talking parrot called Paco... ;) ) 4: No Name Island (Little more than a sand bar that has inedible plants growing on it.) 5: Spider Isle (An ancient building surrounded by eight standing pillars rests in the center of the island. The roof of the building is shaped like the body of a spider. This is the Lost Temple of Araknee.) 6: Skeleton Key (Thousands of bones litter the ground near the center of the island. This is the battlesite of the Aquapopulus War, a legendary war against the merpeople.) 7: Pirate Rock ("As you dig up roots while harvesting rations, you discover d100 gold pieces. This gold was buried here by pirates, and is in the form of coins.) d: Dread isle (actually part of the Isle of Dread) D: Isle of Dread (Better explored in module X1. Salt water termites attack any anchored ships.) B: Burning Mountain (A mountain that spouts dark, gray clouds, ash and smoke, boulders, red lava, all deadly; and also rivulets of raw gold, if you survive to find them.) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1175 ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement I think a lot depends on : a) campaign goal b) real world time frame What I mean is, if you're aiming for the players to do X that requires them to be L20 or so, but no one wants to wait 100 sessions (which could be 2 real years), then the pace has to be picked up for overall satisfaction. I do not mean to say that events should be moved quickly, or XP given out artificially (I've seen this happen and it's very unsatisfying), but a system of XP to advance characters should be used to consistently advance them at a fair rate. Along the way, if they screw up royally, then you're perfectly within your rights to slug them along at a crawling rate of advancement, but otherwise, for overall player satisfaction, the pace should be group determined. Which is why I've rarely seen anyone calculate XPs for monsters unless they're inexperienced to intermediate GMs. The best GMs I've gamed under use a system of (XP per gaming hours x session entertainment value) + individual bonuses. Never found I needed to complain. It's a simple system that focuses on everyone having a good time and everyone contributing. It removes the tedious need for counting XPs for monsters and individual actions. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:08:13 -0300 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion > > From the start as I fail to see the link between Rad and Rafiel. > >First of all, Rad is gone. Yes, he has returned as Etienne d'Ambreville in > >AC 1013, but odds are he is not an Immortal at that stage unless you have > >exceptional PCs for the "Mark of Amber" adventure. Even if he was an Immortal > >again, the text given in the "Poor Wizard's Almanac III" and "Joshuan's > >Almanac" do not mention him at all, which means he has gone into hiding for > >some reason or other. He wouldn't show himself now to help the shadow elves. > > Here I agree. All right, but I was not thinking about getting Glantri in the war through Etienne's influence. I haven't decided if he would be helping the Shadow Elves, but several forces in Glantri would be willing to. A civil war, or at the very least, lots of political plotting and intrigue. I am still not sure about what, but the forces that will side with the shadow elves will be stronger than the oposite ones. Glantri's hate of Immortals added to the fact that the Shadow Elves managed to weaken the Trees of Life, that are artifacts, will be the start. Synn's manipulations will be the decisive force, however. > But Codex of Immortals is set before WotI; I mean: after 9 years working > together on the Radiance they should be something more than "friendly". > > > Rad has no reason to help the elves, and Rafiel is not the type to ask > >help from others as he's a loner and independant. > > IIRC it's Rafiel and Rathanos(??) (fellow Immortals of Energy) that send the > PC to help Rad in Mark of Amber (through Petit-Singe, Camille and the Lady > of the Unicorn). > So, Rad owe them a big favour. Maybe Etienne will be fooled by Synn also. At least untill 1013 AC, maybe untill the begginings of 1014. When the civil breaks, we will have Jaggar (when he finds out the truth about his lover), the White Wolf and the Erewan(they have always been pro-Alfheim) against most other principalities. Etienne will be in a difficult position. He feels he must help his fellow immortal friends (he owes them, as you said), but he will not want to give more power to Synn, she is the greatest treat to his power over Glantri. > > Another reason is that the elves of Alfheim will not move in a large > >assault on Aengmor (the nation, not city) for a while as they wish to slowly > >gather their strength and intelligence on the shadow elves. This was stated > >in one of the "Poor Wizard's Almanacs" when it mentions the formation of the > >Alfheim avengers. The young, hot-headed elves want action now so form the From ???@??? Sun Jul 14 12:52:36 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA11671; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:50:41 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA15036 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:32:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:32:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199607131332.IAA15036@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #160 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5eec0964221c88ea6f45103ad27cc9a6 > >Avengers, but the leaders and elders want to take their time. So odds are the > >elves wouldn't even attack in the first place, so there won't even be a war. > >The Alfheim Avengers, however, might make raids, but not cause enough damage > >to be considered a war. I know they don't want the intervention of the Avengers. But that is because they have their own plans and they don't want the Shadow Elves warned about their intentions of retaking Cannolbarth. The leaders have indeed told the younger elves they want more time, but the same entry says they are gathering strenght and intelligence, so it is logical to suppose they are preparing for war in some way. > > Besides, the shadow elves of the nation of Aengmor has started a peace > >treaty in AC 1013 and invited the elves to move back in and discuss how they > >can share Alfheim. Well, if you don't want a country to know you are preparing an invasion, would you tell them you will not negotiate with them? And, IIRC, Aengmor invited a group of elves according to the Joshuan's almanac, not the ambassadors of Alfheim. It seemed as if they are trying to convince the elven people, because there are no formal relationships between the two groups and Alfheim doesn't want to start them now. > I agree on Alfheim Elves and Shadow Elves signing a peace treaty in the > future, but I don't they'll ever live together in the Canolbarth Forest. Neither do I. We should not forget that the Shadow Elves were used in Alfheim as the major villains in several child stories. Every elf there grew up thinking about the shadow elves the same way they think about trolls and orcs, with the important difference they are more inteligent and more dangerous. Think about it, the orcs invade Cannolbarth and keep the Trees of Life in their control. They meet more problems there than they expected and they ask some elves to negotiate a peace treaty. A few leaders of the Alfheim elves believe these orcs to be good guys. Would you think it possible for them to convince the other elves they should not try to take their homeland back by force? It doesn't matter that the Shadow Elves are not orcs. In the Alfheim culture, they are, right? > > Another main reason is that the Shadow elves have their own troubles > >to worry about. They're heading for a civil war, which Kanafasti is going to > >lead, and they really wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight seeing how > >they will be fighting each other. > > My interpretation on the civil war has to do with the predictions > >given at the end of "Joshuan's Almanac" as well as simply viewing the > >characters and their desires. First of all, all the Shadow elf rulers dislike > >the Way of Rafiel and would get rid of it if they could, but fear to oppose > >the shamans. Kanafasti, the Royal Wizard, turns 800 years old in AC 1014 wich > >turns him into a wanderer, which he doesn't want to be. The solution becomes > >rather simple... he makes a 10th-level spell to raise Aengmor (the city this > >time) back to the surface, were he declares it independant from the shamans > >and the Way of Rafiel. That way, he gets to stay. King Telemon, also > >believing Rafiel to be outdated, would go along with it... Radiant Princess > >Tanadaleyo, wanting a nation of her own, would use the turmoil to make the > >nation of Aengmor independant as well. The shamans, although outraged, will > >be unable to do much about it as they cannot cast spells on the surface since > >they need their soul gems to cast spells, which are destroyed by sunlight. > >Of course, the whole thing is probably engineered by Xatapechtli, leader of > >the Feathered Serpents, doing so because his cloak is urging him to... the > >same cloak which has made him start converting shadow elves to the worship of > >Atzanteolt. > > These ideas are very interesting, but why should Kanafasti raise Aengmor to > the surface (probably with the help of Atzanteotl), when he can just settle > in Aengmor (the nation) if he wants to be free from the Shamans and the Way > of Rafiel ? > Anyway I must admit that this fits perfectly with the predictions of JA. > > I agree on Tanadaleyo wanting an independent nation, but before declaring > independence she has to solve more important problems, such as rainfalls and > the peace with ex-Alfheimers. Both of you are right about the Shadow Elves not wanting the war. The point is they will have no choice unless they agree to give the forest back to their previous owners. If you think they would, due to their internal problems, then I agree there would be no war. But Alfheim was always a dream for them and I don't believe they will give it up so easily. > I fail to see Ylaruam in the battle either, as desert warriors would > not ride out into the forest for many reasons... the Desert Garden Dream would > be one, but odds are it is not something that Ilsundal can solve for Al-Kalim. As in everything, the important thing is not if Ilsundal can solve it, but if he can make Al Kalim believe he can. And I am not so sure that the elves couldn't help, teaching the ylari the secret of raining. That is what Ilsundal is promissing them. I have also worked in a few other events in a private email, so here goes my other ideas (it is important to notice I assume Hel has infiltrated the DDC, Darokin Diplomatic Corps): - --- Nuwmont, 09, 1010AC: Ilsundal and Al Kalim talk Place: Pandius, Matera Ilsundal is desperate about his Trees of life and proposes Al Kalim an alliance. He will instruct his followers to teach ylari mages the secret of raining if the ylari would colaborate in the retaking of Alfheim. Al Kalim says he has to think about it and, two days later, agree with the proposal if Ilsundal promises him his followers will help protect Ylaruam from any thyatian invasion. Desperate, Ilsundal agrees. Soon, ylari leaders start receiving dreams of impending danger from the pale elves. In their dreams, they are helped by the Alfheim elves, who enter Ylaruam followed by a blessing rain that causes trees and flowers to grow in the desert. One month later, an elf ambassador arrives at Ylaruam, carrying gifts and soft words. Ylari leaders listen to his tale and, instructed by their dreams, promise to help. And there is Barimoor. He has a vast underground system under Ylaruam. He is a VERY powerful alphatian mage, questing for immortality in the Pargon path, and has spent the last centuries hoarding magical items for the day he will make the challenge. He certainly has some nithian artifacts and agents in the ylari government. He will not side openly with anyone, he still doesn't feel his time has come and wants to wait another century before appearing. However, underground mages who can one day find his network of tunnels are not something he would want as neighbors. And he certainly would like to have the most powerful mages in a 1000 miles radius destroyed before he challenge them. So he will use his influence to have Ylaruam siding with Alfheim. One year later, Hel's agents discovers Ilsundal's plans of an invasion in Ylaruam. A Brotherhood meeting is called and they decide it is time to reopen their business. A few months later, the ylari caravan is attacked. Meanwhile, glantrian mages and diplomats are seen in Aengmor by the Alfheim elves. One of the elves, disguised, manages to listen to part of their conversations and learn that the Shadow Elves and Glantri are now allies. Ilsundal will have to postpone his plans and he warns Al-Kalim of the news. 1012 : Al Kalim and Kagyar talk Al Kalim wants the Desert Garden and has seen Ilsundal's proposal as the perfect oportunity to further his dream. He knows Ilsundal will not help him untill part of Alfheim is retaken. The dwarves hate Glantri with passion and Al-Kalim convinces Kagyar to talk with Ilsundal. Kagyar asks for elven help in retaking Oenkmar and Ilsundal agrees. The first diplomatic contacts will be done through ylari representatives. The dwarves resist the idea and Kagyar starts to convince them slowly. 1013 (end): A whole underground comunity of dwarves is slaughtered in Rockhome, near Darokin's border. The few survivors tell about an army of shadow elves invading their homes, killing and looting. Investigations produce evidence they have come from tunnels under the dwarven cave. The dwarves can no longer hide inside the earth as they have done in WotI. What this means: Brotherhood's work 1014: Dwarves declare war to Aengmor DDC diplomats are sent to solve the situation, but they fail miserably. Both parties leave the negotiations after two days of meeting. The dwarves swear the elves will pay for every dwarven life they have taken. A diplomatic mission from Ylaruam can now easily convinces them about joining Ylaruam-Alfheim alliance. - --- Plus 1014, maybe 1015: The Khan stikes Glantri The Khan has not allied with any other nations, but he feels it is the right time to take the country. By now, Glantri is cleared divided, so he reasons the mages will fall easily. I am waiting for you opinions on these events. I want to make a timeline that most people can use, at least one idea or two, and you certainly will remember things that I have forgotten. Andre ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:27:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, postmaster wrote: > My interpretation on the civil war has to do with the predictions > given at the end of "Joshuan's Almanac" as well as simply viewing the > characters and their desires. First of all, all the Shadow elf rulers dislike > the Way of Rafiel and would get rid of it if they could, but fear to oppose > the shamans. Kanafasti, the Royal Wizard, turns 800 years old in AC 1014 wich > turns him into a wanderer, which he doesn't want to be. The solution becomes > rather simple... he makes a 10th-level spell to raise Aengmor (the city this > time) back to the surface, were he declares it independant from the shamans > and the Way of Rafiel. That way, he gets to stay. King Telemon, also > believing Rafiel to be outdated, would go along with it... Radiant Princess > Tanadaleyo, wanting a nation of her own, would use the turmoil to make the > nation of Aengmor independant as well. The shamans, although outraged, will > be unable to do much about it as they cannot cast spells on the surface since > they need their soul gems to cast spells, which are destroyed by sunlight. > Of course, the whole thing is probably engineered by Xatapechtli, leader of > the Feathered Serpents, doing so because his cloak is urging him to... the > same cloak which has made him start converting shadow elves to the worship of > Atzanteolt. This is pretty much the way I figure that things are planned, with the exception that I don't think the Shamans will be all that outraged by things. Whatserface, the leader (Porphyriel?) is fully aware of Telemon and the others' plotting, and it seems to me as if she would be more than happy to get rid of them. From what I remember of GAZ13, the Shadow Elves as a people are fairly well split between the two factions- maybe even more of them fall on the side of the Shamans- and so sure, they might lose a few thousand people, but those that choose to remain will be those who are truly devoted to the Shamans and Rafiel. The heck with the rest of them. I don't think the Shamans will contest Aengmor and Oenkmar's independence overmuch. ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:39:26 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement At 11.39 12/07/96 -0700, you wrote: I didn't want to enter this discussion, but I cannot refrain me from writing. As far as XP calculation go I use the standard system given in RC, and I don't think this is only for "inexperienced to intermediate GMs" as someone wrote. My Forgotten Realms DM uses the same system (actually the AD&D one, that don't considers treasure as XP) and he is a good DM. IMO this system is fair, simple and fairly independent from the DM's whim. About level advancement I don't have a fixed number of adventures needed before reaching the next level, my PCs gain a new level when they get the requested XP and this can happen in 1 or 100 adventures, slaying a Dragon or a Kobold, escorting a merchant or saving a King... I don't think that a DM need to have a "Campaign Goal", my campaign has no goals, except adventuring and have fun. Obviously from time to time the PCs create their own goals, but there isn't a main common goal. And IMO a system to assign XP related to gaming hours or gaming session is no good either because often we end our gaming session without doing nothing really adventurous. Just an example from last evening FR game session, this is what we did in about 4 hours of real time: speaking to the police about what happened in an inn the previous night, persuade our thief to give himself up, witness to his trial, introduce two new PCs (my new half-elf and the cleric that takes the place of the thief), quarrel over what to do next, go shopping and listen to a guy that proposed us to escort him in a trip. I don't think we deserve XP for what we did yesterday. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:39:23 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion At 17.08 12/07/96 -0300, Andre wrote: >I know they don't want the intervention of the Avengers. But that is >because they have their own plans and they don't want the Shadow Elves >warned about their intentions of retaking Cannolbarth. The leaders >have indeed told the younger elves they want more time, but the same >entry says they are gathering strenght and intelligence, so it is >logical to suppose they are preparing for war in some way. > I don't think that exiled Alfheimers really want to take back their forest with the brute force. IMO their first goal is to save the Trees, everything else comes after this. Besides I think that it would be difficult for them to wage a war on Aengmor, for various reasons: * Their forces are split between Wendar an Karameikos and they need to cross foreign countries with their army. * The army of Alfheim is good at defending the forest, but not so good as an offensive army. * Alfheim elves aren't a warlike race But let's suppose that they manage to take back the blighted forest, will they be able to heal it and turn it back in the mighty Canolbarth Forest. I doubt it. Last thing: some of them were awarded dominions in Karameikos, why should they go back to Aengmor/Alfheim, and Wendar is not a bad place either. >Well, if you don't want a country to know you are preparing an >invasion, would you tell them you will not negotiate with them? And, >IIRC, Aengmor invited a group of elves according to the Joshuan's >almanac, not the ambassadors of Alfheim. It seemed as if they are >trying to convince the elven people, because there are no formal >relationships between the two groups and Alfheim doesn't want to start >them now. Perhaps King Doriath and those in Wendar doesn't want to, but the Clans in Karameikos may be more "friendly" toward Shadow Elves and surely the DDC will help this peace-process. >As in everything, the important thing is not if Ilsundal can solve it, >but if he can make Al Kalim believe he can. And I am not so sure that >the elves couldn't help, teaching the ylari the secret of >raining. That is what Ilsundal is promissing them. I have also worked >in a few other events in a private email, so here goes my other ideas >(it is important to notice I assume Hel has infiltrated the DDC, >Darokin Diplomatic Corps): > Ylari helping elves !! IIRC they hate elves, blaming them for the drought that struck Ylaruam. No way Ylari can ride out of their desert to help elves fight in the forest. Just a note on Hel: wasn't she (it's a she-Immortal, right ?) supposed to have suffered a major strike at the end of WotI. I think that it's better for her if she keeps herself quiet for a while. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #160 ***************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 14 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 161 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:21:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion In a message dated 96-07-12 17:28:56 EDT, acrmarti@snfma1.if.usp.br (Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S) writes: << Maybe Etienne will be fooled by Synn also. >> Not likely. By the time Etienne returns, Prince Malachie (aka the White Wolf) has figured out the Princess Dolores (Synn) is not what she appears to be, and he would probably share that information with Etienne. Then Etienne need only cast a few spells of his own to figure out the rest. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:21:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad In a message dated 96-07-12 13:01:33 EDT, george@msn.fullfeed.com (Windows 95 INNOVA Media User) writes: << I have avoided, with great success, the "new" releases from TSR on Mystara. The price in return for what you get, you know. I have, therefore, not seen the details of the Mark of Amber. I thought it was a rehash of the Castle of Amber module from way back (same story line, bringing Etienne back after his dissappearance. Correct me if I am wrong. >> _Mark of Amber_ is more of a sequel to than a rehash of _Castle Amber_. It deals with Prince Etienne's second return after WotI, but the details of that return and the adventures that the PCs have before he does return are vastly different from those of _Castle Amber_. In addition to the return of Prince Etienne, the player characters must handle a murder mystery (as members of the d'Ambreville family gathered for a wedding are being murdered before, during, and after the wedding ceremony) and try to remold Etienne's character in dream visions of his early life. In addition to the adventure, this boxed set includes detailed background information on the d'Ambreville family (combining information from _Castle Amber_, other Mystara products, and previously unpublished material) as well as a CD that is actually useful for the adventure. Even if you have avoided the other newer Mystara products, I would definitely recommend this one. ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sat, 13 Jul 96 11:12:39 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Spells from Glantri? - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Thursday, 11-Jul-96 04:51 PM > From: Robert Kaelin \ Internet: (kaelin@natural.com) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > Subject: Re: [Mystara] All about Rad, some about Synn > Snipits from responses. > (There are a few AD&D spells that prevent summoning, teleporting or plane > travelling. Walls with no doors is a good Glantri spell like this, and it's > only 4th level. - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Hey, am I missing something by not buying the AD&D version of the Glantri Gazetteer? Is that where the spell mentioned above comes from? Otherwise, what sources are there for specifically Glantrian, or even plain Mystaran, spells? TIA, Shelby ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jul 13 15:05:43 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 13 Jul 96 11:05 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA15221 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:30:30 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA15182 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:24:29 -0500 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA03734 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:20:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01431 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:21:28 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:21:28 -0400 Message-ID: <960713102128_357969897@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion Content-Length: 455 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-12 17:28:56 EDT, acrmarti@snfma1.if.usp.br (Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S) writes: << Maybe Etienne will be fooled by Synn also. >> Not likely. By the time Etienne returns, Prince Malachie (aka the White Wolf) has figured out the Princess Dolores (Synn) is not what she appears to be, and he would probably share that information with Etienne. Then Etienne need only cast a few spells of his own to figure out the rest. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Sat Jul 13 15:10:40 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sat, 13 Jul 96 11:10 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA15216 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:30:18 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA15179 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:24:28 -0500 Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA03736 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:20:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA10597 for mystara-l@io.com; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:21:29 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:21:29 -0400 Message-ID: <960713102129_357969914@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Return of Rad Content-Length: 1420 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-12 13:01:33 EDT, george@msn.fullfeed.com (Windows 95 INNOVA Media User) writes: << I have avoided, with great success, the "new" releases from TSR on Mystara. The price in return for what you get, you know. I have, therefore, not seen the details of the Mark of Amber. I thought it was a rehash of the Castle of Amber module from way back (same story line, bringing Etienne back after his dissappearance. Correct me if I am wrong. >> _Mark of Amber_ is more of a sequel to than a rehash of _Castle Amber_. It deals with Prince Etienne's second return after WotI, but the details of that return and the adventures that the PCs have before he does return are vastly different from those of _Castle Amber_. In addition to the return of Prince Etienne, the player characters must handle a murder mystery (as members of the d'Ambreville family gathered for a wedding are being murdered before, during, and after the wedding ceremony) and try to remold Etienne's character in dream visions of his early life. In addition to the adventure, this boxed set includes detailed background information on the d'Ambreville family (combining information from _Castle Amber_, other Mystara products, and previously unpublished material) as well as a CD that is actually useful for the adventure. Even if you have avoided the other newer Mystara products, I would definitely recommend this one. ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:02:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spells from Glantri? >Hey, am I missing something by not buying the AD&D version of the Glantri >Gazetteer? Is that where the spell mentioned above comes from? Otherwise, >what sources are there for specifically Glantrian, or even plain Mystaran, >spells? > Yes, the Glantri AD&D boxed set has about 20-30 new wizard spells in it all created by, or at least popularly used by, Glantrian mages. A few of them are Glantri versions of existing spells, for example the first level "Spirit of Servitude" is basically a version of unseen servant except the servant can have any basic physical form and coloration the mage desires within simple limits. (It's visible too.) There are some non-combat "personal touch" spells given that are popular in Glantri as well. "Finery and Freshness" prevents the caster's clothing from becoming dirty or torn and protects the casters personal hygiene for 1/day per level against normal wear and tear. It's not effective against combat or actively trying to tear the casters clothing or mar them in some way, though.) A lot are spells augment a mages other powers in one way or another. Some remove the targets magical protections, magic resistance, penalize the targets save, or force Nthe character to save twice versus an attack and take the worst result. Some are popular in Glantrian home security, the "Walls with no doors" spell I mentioned before and one called "Jaggar's Strengthened Bastion" that permanently protects walls and doors from spells like passwall, knock, move earth, disintegrate, etc. (Not positive on disintegrate though.) I also created a spell called "Walls with No Ears" IMC that's similar to "Walls with no Doors" excepts it prevents any type of scrying or diviniation in it's boundaries instead of teleportation and summoning. I'm not certain whether or not these spells will be in the upcoming Wizards spell Compendium. I've checked TSR's web page where they have a listing of every spell that will be part of it and I can't find any of them on the list...But there is a note saying that the spells from the Glantri Boxed Set had overly long names and may be under different ones in the Compendiums so it's really anyone's guess if they'll ever be published again. I'm not sure if the spells alone are worth the cost of the set but I think they can add some more depth to Glantrian wizards. Hope this helps, - -Bob ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sat, 13 Jul 96 18:15:47 EDT Subject: RE: [Mystara] Level Advancement Windows 95 INNOVA Media User writes: > Hello, > > A few questions: > > According to the Rules Cyclopedia, it should take around 5 normal > adventures to gain a level. Does it take this long for anyone else? > > This LONG? I find a level every five games to be quite fast. Yes, But an *ADVENTURE* should last more than one game and some people don't play very often, making things go really slowly. It should all depend on how fast a pace your campaign has and how often you play. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sat, 13 Jul 96 18:19:08 EDT Subject: RE: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + Windows 95 INNOVA Media User writes: > > for later, which led to a *LOT* of bookkeeping for me, which led to me > abandoning that system and just sticking with the less realistic, plain > and simple, no bookkeeping AC system... Trust me it gets to be *WAY* to > much work... > > Here is what I do for this problem. If the creature is tough and not > particularly fast or agile (from its description) I simply use its AC > to determine an AV (9 - AC) and give it a new AC of 0. If it is > fast or agile rather than tought, then I leave it alone and give it > an AV 0. If it is BOTH tough and fast or agile then I will give it > both the listed AC and the calculated AV (as described above). This is almost exactly what I did. But like I said, remembering it all gets tedious. Writing it down gets to be a lot of work. More than it's worth I find. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: mystara-mail@fishys.jammys.net (postmaster) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 96 01:15:02 EST Subject: [Mystara] Shadow Elves and Aengmor I had mention a couple of days ago my ideas about how Kanafasti would raise Aengmor back to the surface of Mystara in the hopes of getting rid of the influence of the Shamans of Rafiel so he wouldn't have to become a wanderer. Someone asked why not move to the nation of Aengmor instead of raising the city? Here's my opinion: First of all, Kanafasti has encountered the other wanderers curently living in the city of Aengmor and feels pity for them, so he wants to help them as well. Odds are, many of those wanderers are also very experienced mages (hey, they have kept themselves hiden and alive in a humanoid city for years now), and could probably help him on creating the spell to raise the city to the surface. Another factor would be Xatapechtli again, who would probably constantly "suggest" that Kanafasti bring the city to the surface. His reasons could be anything from the gain of personal power, to simply terrifying the humans of the world by showing the might of the shadow elves. I would lean more in favor that Atzanteotl is behind it someone, corupting him with the cloak and seeking the city for himself. Another reason would be to spite the shamans and Rafiel. Kanafasti would love to rub it in on the Shamans at how he stole their Sacred City from right under their noses. Remeber that the soul crystals which give the shamans spells cannot work on the surface as sunlight destroys them? Well that has just made the city of Aengmor practically shaman free. What better way to get rid of the Way of Rafiel then by getting rid of the powers of the shamans who preach it? Another thing is moving to Aengmor would only pospone the problem. Yes, Aengmore is technically free of shamans, but they have not officialy renounced the Way of Rafiel. To do so, Tanadaleyo would have to declare her independance and disband the priesthood in the nation of Aengmor. Although From ???@??? Thu Jul 18 12:09:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA07114; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:05:39 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA22033 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:40:50 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:40:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199607142240.RAA22033@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #161 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 8a78a9baf995c5a8c8bfd83db00aaa5f she is ambitious enough to do such a move, I'm sure she is not ready to do so as many in her nation still follow Rafiel. It could lead to a civil war in the nation of Aengmor. I would guess that Atzanteotl has more influence in his city, and therefore his cult is growing in the City of Aengmor. If that city rises and declare independance, it would probably be easier for them to win and take it over. A last factor could be the fact that many shadow elves are disillusioned with Alfheim. They expected a land of beauty on the surface, but get a twisted, dying forest. Some would more than likely rather have one of their own cities on the surface, rather than a dead place of their former enemies. As such, I would say that none of the factors are strong on their own, but when all put together, would give good enough reason to raise the city to the surface. Anyways, those are my opinions, as I'm trying to rationalize why/how the city would rise to the surface and that Atzanteotl would gain a strong following of shadow elves as predicted in JA. Can anyone see any flaws or point out things I might have missed? Kallatari Hopstride Michael Roy "I am not a thief!" mroy@fishys.jammys.net mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ From: mystara-mail@fishys.jammys.net (postmaster) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 96 00:56:14 EST Subject: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion Ok, I had trouble receiving the last batch of responses on the Mystara list, so I read them from the digests on the Web and I won't be able to quote this time, but I hope the rest of you can follow. An argument I brought up is that Rad and Rafiel were merely working together and not necessarily friends. Someone pointed out that Rafiel (and Rathanos) helped Rad return in the "Mark of Amber" adventure by guiding Petit-Singe, and that Rad therefore owes them one. I looked through the module and can't find any mention of any Immortal helping Rad's side in this. If you could please tell me where this is mentioned, it would be appreciated. Still, even without Rafiel's help in "Mark of Amber," Rad and Rafiel might have become friends during the decade they worked together on the Radiance during Wrath of the Immortals, so Rad might still be inclined to help Rafiel out. Yet I still say Rad is in hiding, not just from other Glantrians (I'm sure he couldn't care less about Synn and her activities, just like any other evil prince... he just doesn't want them to interfere with him), but from other Immortals as well. If he becomes active again, they will know he is back and a lot of the Immortals are going to want to question him on where he has been and what the Old Ones did to him. He'll be an oddity that other Immortals won't leave alone. He doesn't want that, so he stays in hiding, even if it means not helping his friend Rafiel. Still, as someone else pointed out, Glantri can get involved by others means besides Rad. Synn probably has a few shadow elf agents of her own (something I take from the Mystara arcade games Tower of Doom and Shadows Over Mystara. Why? Because I like the stories), so could easily use her weight to try and help them in the chance of getting more minions. As for Kol, I'm not sure on this one. The humanoids might help because of Synn and because they hate elves. But they also hate shadow elves, so could decide to stay neutral. Malachie would oppose Synn, and Carlotina (the elf Princess if I recall corectly) would vote against helping the shadow elves for sure. Then again, the shadow elves have many unique spells that I'm sure the Great School of Magic would love to get in exchange for helping them... Overall, I would say that Glantri would be too chaotic to predict what will happen and whether or not they would participate or not. As for the main cause of the war, the elves of Alfheim, I agree with a few others. The elves are not a warrior race and would not use a mass war to reclaim their homeland. The peace treaty is their first step, but like many have said as well, I doubt the two elven races will ever manage to live peacefully together, at least not with the current generation of elves. So the elder elves will plan and plot to take it back, but not by force, at least, not for the next decade or two, when they might realize that there is no other way... Other reasons that have been pointed out, such as the fact that the elves are now divided and scattered around the Known World are also valid, making logistics and a unified attack too much trouble to actually work. As for Ylaruam, someone mentioned that they hate elves. That's a fact I forget and is an important one in this discussion. The Ylari hate mages and magic, and as such hate the elves since all elves are mages if using the D&D rules. If AD&D is being used, most elves are probably fighter/mages, or at least the ones the Ylari have encountered and they more than likely stereotype all elves as fighter/mages (why not? most of my players do). If Ylaruam doesn't help, then odds are they won't act as mediators between the dwarves and elves. And even then, I'm still not sure the dwarves would allie with elves at this point or for the next couple of years judging by the way they are treating the humans and halflings of their own nation right now (see Joshuan's Almanac). Pity the poor elf who runs into a dwarf for the next few years... Ethengar, I agree they will attack Glantri, but more for their own glory than anything else. One last point which I would like to make is the Immortals and the people of Mystara themselves. The Brotherhood was defeated in Wrath and the other Immortals are aware of the group. Odds are they will be watched for a while to prevent such events from happening again. Also, most of the people of Mystara (the Known World) are upset at the events that have happened during Wrath of the Immortals. They dislike the fact that the Immortals used them and their nations as pawns for their fights, and that many died for no reason in the whole thing. The faith of Gareth is gaining strength in Sind and Darokin right now. If word leaks out that the Immortals are once again pushing for a war, I have a strange feeling that the Immortals will lose many of their followers to this unknown new Immortal. I think the Immortals themselves realize this and would think twice before starting such a war again, especially with the same generation of humans still alive and remembering bitterly the effects of the first Wrath of the Immortals. Yes, they will continue to manipulate for power, but not to the point at bringing the whole world to war again. Finally, the last war has decimated most of the fighting population of all nations. The nations have to recoup and gain strength again before starting another massive war. Both Glantri and the Alfheim elves suffered great losses from the plague and humanoids. These nations would more than likely wait until their nations recoup their young and fighters before starting another such fight... Just look at WWI and WWII here on Earth, there was a complete generation between the wars (admitedly, not just to replenish the soldiers, but it was one of the main factors). Kallatari Hopstride Michael Roy "I am not a thief!" mroy@fishys.jammys.net mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 10:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement > > I didn't want to enter this discussion, but I cannot refrain me from writing. > > As far as XP calculation go I use the standard system given in RC, and I > don't think this is only for "inexperienced to intermediate GMs" as someone > wrote. My Forgotten Realms DM uses the same system (actually the AD&D one, > that don't considers treasure as XP) and he is a good DM. IMO this system is > fair, simple and fairly independent from the DM's whim. Okay, let me revise my statement : I have only seen inexperienced to intermediate GMs count monster/treasure/action type XP. If you've seen otherwise, then maybe what I'm describing is a local phenomenon. > > I don't think that a DM need to have a "Campaign Goal", my campaign has no > goals, except adventuring and have fun. Obviously from time to time the PCs > create their own goals, but there isn't a main common goal. I've seen games where PCs waffle around with no firm goal. In my experience, it tends to sink into boredom, perhaps because we are used to goal-oriented adventuring. After the goal, if another suitably challenging and interesting one does no arise, doing weeny tasks seems kind of boring. > > And IMO a system to assign XP related to gaming hours or gaming session is > no good either because often we end our gaming session without doing nothing > really adventurous. Just an example from last evening FR game session, this We've spent 4-hour sessions planning an attack on a castle and the like. This isn't "adventurous" but it is important, so we do still get decent XPs for it (if we didn't plan, we'd be creamed so fast...) If no one feels like playing and everyone is generally lethargic, then all round we'll get really low XP. > is what we did in about 4 hours of real time: speaking to the police about > what happened in an inn the previous night, persuade our thief to give > himself up, witness to his trial, introduce two new PCs (my new half-elf and > the cleric that takes the place of the thief), quarrel over what to do next, > go shopping and listen to a guy that proposed us to escort him in a trip. > I don't think we deserve XP for what we did yesterday. > You didn't think it was worh XP because ...? a) it was boring? b) it was trivial? c) it wasn't action-packed? Therefore, one of the following may have happened : a) players arranged events so that they were boring; for instance, if the GM lined up something to happen at the trial, but the PCs happened to inadvertently foil this or were in a position so that the baddies didn't even want to try something stupid, then nothing happens b) the GM didn't have anything lined up c) the players insisted on roleplaying even the "boring" bits which could be shovelled aside in favor of action-packed adventure. Of course, all this is hypothetical, but 1) in my experience, explanations (a-c) are reasonable, drawing from similar sessions I have attended 2) you have cited what may be an exceptional session, in which case it doesn't really "counter" the time-related XP award. Everyone just gets very little if everyone was bored. You also mentioned that 0 XPs were what you "deserved." I disagree. However big a boob any one player is during a session, they should still get token XPs for showing up. Otherwise, there is no incentive to do anything. Sometimes, sessions just don't have the type of action a player likes, and he stays in the background. For instance, some are detectives who like to solve crimes, others are combat monsters who like to slash things. You can't please everyone, so you can't penalize anyone for either not liking a session, or no having a character who can do something constructive in a session (this latter case I've seen several times; at least they _think_ they can't do something; in a large group, GMs don't always have time to put everyone in the spotlight, especially if they have to tell them how to do it). OTOH, I've also seen players who show up and consistently do nothing, for whatever reason. If they really don't want to get into the game, it's probably better to just ask them what's wrong, or ask them to leave. Their mere presence often dampens the mood for everyone. Giving them 0 XP only makes them feel bad and makes them feel that showing up for 3-5 hours was a complete waste of time. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: "Alex Gregoire" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:44:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + - ---------- > From: Dave Brohman > To: Mystara List > Subject: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + > Date: mardi 9 juillet 1996 23:52 > > Does anyone use the Armour Value/Armour Class rules from Dawn of the > Emperors? If so, how effective do you find them? There is only one problem with the AV and it is at low level with no magic weapons and trying to hit a monster with a shell or if you prefer an AV of 8 or 9 and a AC 0 with maybe 36HP. How a 1st level party will kill this monster? They need a weapon that will make 9 or 10 for dammages? No sword +5 here and no Clouds Giant here. So it will took them 36 hits to kill the creature (1hp per hit) if they are not dead by then... ------------------------------ From: "Alex Gregoire" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:16:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level limits in AD&D > Hi guys, > > I 've always been one to go for optional rules where the original rules > get out of hand or seem silly. With Demi-humans, I felt it silly to > limit them any more than they already are by their choice of classes, > so I opted for the rule of doubling experience needed after the "level > limits" or allowing Halflings, etc. with exceptional prime requisite scores > and Intelligence to hurdle this limit completely. Hi, In my "Home Made Rules Book" We choose the race (elves, human, gnome...) then we had bonus to their caracteristics. Then we chosse the classe (Magic-User, Warrior...) just like in the AD&D but all classes and races have a 36 levels max. One special thing is the Hit Points. They are based on the Race not the Classe. So Elves got is HP from a d6 no matter if he is a Warrior or a Magic-User. Alex Gregoire (kat.path@spherenet.com) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #161 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 16 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 162 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: remoore@nando.net Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 22:20:45 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] A Question Regarding Gareth I have the first three Poor Wizard's Almanacs, but not the new Joshuan Gallidox-whatever-AD&D crap. (Sorry, I abhor AD&D.) I was wondering if anybody could tell me what new info there is on the Immortal Gareth. Even though he seems benevolent, I question whether or not he is as good as he seems... Maleviro Jade ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 20:17:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] A Question Regarding Gareth On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 remoore@nando.net wrote: > I have the first three Poor Wizard's Almanacs, but not the new Joshuan > Gallidox-whatever-AD&D crap. (Sorry, I abhor AD&D.) I was wondering if > anybody could tell me what new info there is on the Immortal Gareth. > Even though he seems benevolent, I question whether or not he is as good > as he seems... > Not to mention that it seems a bit odd that an immortal who counsels against Immortal interference in mortal affairs would go about building a following of said mortals... Heck, even granting spells to clerics is interference, isn't it? Reminds me of a Marvel comic I read once, where the Watchers of the Universe started killing themselves off because they realized that even the mere act of 'watching' events in the cosmos was itself a form of interference... ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Mon Jul 15 03:08:31 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Sun, 14 Jul 96 23:08 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA22795 for mystara-l-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 21:30:15 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA22783 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 21:28:34 -0500 Received: from parsifal.nando.net (root@parsifal.nando.net [152.52.2.7]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA20049 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 21:21:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from remoore.nando.net (grail912.nando.net [152.52.28.132]) by parsifal.nando.net (8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA06724 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 22:22:14 -0400 (EDT) From: remoore@nando.net Message-ID: <31E9AAFD.703B@nando.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 22:20:45 -0400 Organization: Not Applicable X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] A Question Regarding Gareth Content-Length: 317 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I have the first three Poor Wizard's Almanacs, but not the new Joshuan Gallidox-whatever-AD&D crap. (Sorry, I abhor AD&D.) I was wondering if anybody could tell me what new info there is on the Immortal Gareth. Even though he seems benevolent, I question whether or not he is as good as he seems... Maleviro Jade ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 20:12:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Alex Gregoire wrote: > There is only one problem with the AV and it is at low level with no magic > weapons and trying to hit a monster with a shell or if you prefer an AV of > 8 or 9 and a AC 0 with maybe 36HP. How a 1st level party will kill this > monster? They need a weapon that will make 9 or 10 for dammages? No sword > +5 here and no Clouds Giant here. So it will took them 36 hits to kill the > creature (1hp per hit) if they are not dead by then... Well, for one thing, there are the critical hit rules, if you use them (I use a variant of them myself) which state that on high rolls you do more damage. I think it lists an 18 as being maximum damage for the weapon minus the creatures' AV; a 19 as doing maximum damage and bypassing the creature's AV (you slip it into a crack or crevice, maybe an eyeball or something); and a 20 as doing double damage and bypassing the AV- or anyway, something to this effect. Another possibility, following the thread of bypassing armor, is to use the called shot rules from AD&D in order to bypass the creature's AV. In effect, the characters take penalties to initiative and 'to hit' rolls (I think, -1 and -4/-8 respectively- the -8 is for certain special called shots like head shots, etc.) in order to achieve a certain result. This could allow PC's to bypass the AV. Lastly, if nothing else, this forces the PC's to find other means than plain combat to accomplish their goals... and besides which, if you're using AV, what are you doing sending a monster like this against the PC's at such low levels anyway, knowing that they have no means to defeat it at hand? ;) ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 20:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] A Question Regarding Gareth On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 remoore@nando.net wrote: > ...but not the new Joshuan > Gallidox-whatever-AD&D crap. (Sorry, I abhor AD&D.) That's all well and good, but was there a reason you had to share this, despite the fact it really isn't relavent to the topic? Trolls, intentional or otherwise, or not welcome on the list. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 1:05:56 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Armour Value and Armour Class + Alex Gregoire writes: > There is only one problem with the AV and it is at low level with no magic > weapons and trying to hit a monster with a shell or if you prefer an AV of > 8 or 9 and a AC 0 with maybe 36HP. How a 1st level party will kill this > monster? They need a weapon that will make 9 or 10 for dammages? No sword > +5 here and no Clouds Giant here. So it will took them 36 hits to kill the > creature (1hp per hit) if they are not dead by then... Yes, but what kind of creature would have an AC of zero AND and AV of 8 or 9 (dragons spring to mind). If this beast is so tough, why are the PC's going to be fighting it at such a low level? Besides, AV doesn't protect against a whole pile of magical attacks (like Fireball and Lightning Bolt). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Personal and Administrative Posts From Me... Mystarans, It seems there may be some confusion on my posts to the list. In response to my reply to the person with the "I abhor AD&D" post, someone sent me a letter wondering why I was lenient on the mystic debate, but chose to respond to this. I post to the list as both a member and as the administrator. If I am posting as the administrator, I put the word [ADMIN] in the subject line. This lets everyone know I am posting something "official." Comments on such posts are certainly welcome, but are probably best left to private e-mail. If I don't put this is the subject line, then I am posting as a member, and people are invited to respond to such posts as they would any other. My status as the administrator should mean nothing when it comes to these posts, although I would expect the same courtesy shown others, of course. I would like to further comment on the reply I made to the AD&D bashing post. The letter was not an administrative one. Looking back, though, it was a little harsh, and I apologize. The person seemed to be new, and I may have either scared him or pissed him off. I want to clarify that I am not saying I have problems with people voicing their opinions. That would be silly. But I think there is a right and wrong way to do so. The person in question posted something that had nothing to do with any game system, yet he added his dislike for one anyway. Kinda like asking "Does anyone have any Windows software for Mystara?" and adding "BTW, I think Macs suck." It screamed "troll." "Abhor" and "crap" are strong words that should not be tossed out lightly. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Johnson Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:54:01 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Greetings Hi. I'm Michael and I'm new to the list, so I thought I would start off by introducing myself. I live in London, Ontario, Canada, and have been DMing (and to a lesser extent, playing) games in the Mystara setting for twelve or thirteen (somewhere in that range) years now, since the time when the Known World was nothing more than a map accompanied by a few short paragraphs in module X1. Admittedly, back then I was very young, and most of the games didn't really pay much attention to the world. They were all hack'n'slash with ridiculous amounts of treasure and experience awarded. Once the Gazetteers started coming out, however, I moved away from this style of playing and have never looked back. When the game moved to AD&D, I wasn't particularly bothered. The quality of the Karameikos boxed set was very good (if you ignore the useless CD), even if most of it was just reprinted from GAZ 1. I was very glad to find this list, now that I am on-line. Mystara has always been my favourite TSR setting (in fact, I have never even liked any of the others), and I was extremely disappointed when I saw the 1996 release schedule in Dragon Magazine and Mystara wasn't on it. It seems that this mailing list has become the only means of continuing the Known World. Anyway, that's me in short. I've no doubt I'll be writing again soon. Michael. ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 20:50:07 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Matthew Levy writes: > > To answer your question, it depends on how "authentic" you want to get > ... Ochalea's culture is roughly based on China, and the Divinarchy of > Yavdlom is obviously intended to be West African-flavored. In my current > campaign I have expanded on this quite a bit: Certain unsavory > merchant-types from the KW (Thyatin, Hattian, Minrothaddan, Ierendi, > Darokinian) have begun both buying and kidnapping slaves from Yavdlom to > be sold to work gangs in the Thyatin colonies and elsewhere. The > divinarchs of Yavdlom have cooperated in this practice to some extent, > selling captive criminals as well as other social renegades into slavery > to the "easterners" just as their real-world inspirations, the Ibo > oracles of Nigeria, sold slaves to the Europeans between the 16th and > 19th centuries. Each of the Known World naval powers has its deals with > particular powerful families, divinarchs, and Swetanga, and they have cut > up Yavdlom between them into spheres of influence. My PC's are in the > midst of a brewing minor war between Thyatis and Ierendi for control of > the slave trade, and the time seems ripe for Yavdlom to unify under a > strong leader and rise up to overthrow the white oppressors ... > My campaign is fairly non-standard in its politics (this is all in a > post- X10 world where Hosadus controls Darokin) but this can serve as a > good example, I hope, for how the real world can give inspiration for > gaming events. Also how DM's can overcome the bland and euphemistic > political correctness of TSR's supplements, where PC's tend to be > ridiculously innocent and nice even as they engage in bloodbaths of > conquest and other imperialistic behaviors. > > m@2 > > On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > > > Thank you for the vast reply on Mystics. I have another > > > question.... I have the 2nd ed. guide, but it doesn't tell me how to > > > make an oriental mage. Please help me out here! > > > > I assume by oriental mage, you mean 'Wu Jen' from Oriental Adventures > > (1st ed), or the Complete Wizard's Handbook (2nd ed) > > > > That reminds me.. I know that European and Middle East civilizations are > > fairly well represented in Mystara, as are certain Native (australian, > > american, and other) ones.. but the only Oriental one I know of is the > > Rakasta (feline humanoids) in Bellayne and on Patera. > > Does anybody know of an Oriental (or African, for that matter) culture on > > Mystara? > > > > -- > > Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca > > Well, the culture of Bellayne is actually more like Victorian England, so states the Princess Ark series. As far as Oreintal cultures, the only one that was presented was that of Ochalea, or, failing that, the village of Lamsa in eastern Glantri - the denizens of which are descended from the Ethengarians. As far as Africans go, you'd best look at the Yavdlom peoples, the Karimari of Ulimwengu (also on the Serpent Peninsula), the Pearl Islanders, or the Tanagoro. Hope this helps, Geoff > > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science III Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Glenn Butcher Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:57:17 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement Poster delurking off the starboard bow Sir! > > > > > I don't think that a DM need to have a "Campaign Goal", my campaign has no > > goals, except adventuring and have fun. Obviously from time to time the PCs > > create their own goals, but there isn't a main common goal. > > I've seen games where PCs waffle around with no firm goal. In my > experience, it tends to sink into boredom, perhaps because we are used to > goal-oriented adventuring. After the goal, if another suitably > challenging and interesting one does no arise, doing weeny tasks seems > kind of boring. > In most of the moderate level+ games I have played in, the PC's tend to make their own goals. Dm given goals are often ignored because the character isn't interested. The party is always doing challenging and interesting missions because they find their own. I think the main point is large goals versus small goals. Some parties have a large goal, and others just have small, short term goals. The former tends to be made up of the latter anyway. > > > > And IMO a system to assign XP related to gaming hours or gaming session is > > no good either because often we end our gaming session without doing nothing > > really adventurous. Just an example from last evening FR game session, this > > We've spent 4-hour sessions planning an attack on a castle and the like. > This isn't "adventurous" but it is important, so we do still get decent > XPs for it (if we didn't plan, we'd be creamed so fast...) > If no one feels like playing and everyone is generally lethargic, then > all round we'll get really low XP. > We do a simliar type of thing. If the DM had a great time then we tend to get a lot of experience. I have seen sessions which involved nothing more than a PC talking to his wife! I gave a moderate amount of XP for that session, for good roleplaying (and we enjoyed the session). [BTW, it was one-on-one so nobody else was around to be bored, except one spectator who also enjoyed it]. Glenn I've lost him! He must have activated his cloaking device Sir! - -- ******************************************************************************** Sir Lighthaft, Lord of Paladins Mortal Avatar: knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Home page: http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight ******************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, postmaster wrote: > As for Ylaruam, someone mentioned that they hate elves. That's a fact > I forget and is an important one in this discussion. The Ylari hate mages and > magic, and as such hate the elves since all elves are mages if using the D&D > rules. If AD&D is being used, most elves are probably fighter/mages, or at > least the ones the Ylari have encountered and they more than likely stereotype > all elves as fighter/mages (why not? most of my players do). Actually, OD&D elves are neither mages, fighters, nor both. In OD&D, elves are a class, although if you wanted to use the closest correlate it would be a fighter/mage and not a single-class mage. In any case, I think magic use even as half of a profession, coupled with the blame for the drought, is enough to make class dynamics moot when thinking about the Ylari dislike of Alfheim elves. Just my two piasters David "Azure" Leland ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] More Mystara Products Available... Mystarans, I know there are people on this list who are still looking to buy a some, or all, of the Gazetteers. The last post indicating where they are available received a lot of attention. So, I thought I would point out a web site that has many of the Gazetteers in mint, shrink-wrapped condition for reasonable prices. They also have a bunch of the older OD&D modules in the same condition, such as a shrink-wrapped CM7 Tree of Life. The place is called the Dragon's Trove, and the URL is... http://www.dragontrove.com/basic.html I hope this helps someone out! Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Cthulhu, eh? I'll try and backstab him" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... I am sure many are already aware of this, but I thought I would post it to the list anyway, let everyone know... The complete text of GAZ13 The Shadow Elves is available for downloading. This is from a TSR sanctioned site, and is completely legal. The files can be found on the MPGN ftp site, or downloaded through the (currently boring) Mystara Mailing List home page, which can be found at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm The maps are not currently available. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Mystara Net.Book on MPGN... Mystarans, While exploring the MPGN site, I found something called the Mystara Net.Book 2.0A. It is a huge work of about 130 pages, including a host of AD&D conversion rules, as well as some basic Mystara info (i.e. country and Immortal summaries). And this is the first time I have ever seen it. Does anyone know anything about this work? Like who wrote it? There is no e-mail address or real name that I can find. It was written fairly recently, since some of the stuff is in PO: Skills & Powers terms. Just curious... van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: GABRIELE FERRI Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:55:18 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] What happened to the Known World after 1000? Hi! I used to play D&D and I read many Gazetteers, but, when I changed to = AD&D, I haven't read anything about the Known World. I know that = something is changed, but I don't know what exactly. Is there anyone who can tell me what happened? Thanks! Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: GABRIELE FERRI Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:50:52 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] greetings! Hi everybody.=20 My name is Gabriele, I'm an Italian AD&D Dungeon Master. I played D&D = for about 3 years (I started when the first Gazetteer was translated in = italian) and now I changed to AD&D; but Mystara is still my favourite = campaign. See you! Gabriele Ferri - San Lazzaro, Bologna, Italy - = fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #162 ***************************** mystara-digest Wednesday, 17 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 163 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shelby Michlin Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 19:05:45 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Campaign Goals (was Re: Level Advancement) - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > From: Glenn Butcher \ Internet: (knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au) > In most of the moderate level+ games I have played in, the PC's tend to make > their own goals. Dm given goals are often ignored because the character isn't > interested. The party is always doing challenging and interesting missions > because they find their own. - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- My feeling on this issue is that the DM is creating a world, and running it. He invites players to participate. He may know his players, and know what they like, but he won't enjoy DM'ing unless he is doing what *he* wants. He knows what kind of world he's interested in, what rules he likes to use, what type of roleplaying he enjoys (ie hacknslash, theatrical or whatever), and what kind of adventures he wants to run. If some players hint at adventuring possibilities that spark his creativity, great. But if he's not interested, then play what you signed up for. The players know what *they* want, granted. But they can move to another DM if they don't find it. The DM can't run what he doesn't enjoy anyway. Shelby ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:58:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] What happened to the Known World after 1000? In a message dated 96-07-16 07:06:52 EDT, fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it (GABRIELE FERRI) writes: << I used to play D&D and I read many Gazetteers, but, when I changed to AD&D, I haven't read anything about the Known World. I know that something is changed, but I don't know what exactly. Is there anyone who can tell me what happened? Thanks! >> The biggest changes are described in the boxed set _Wrath of the Immortals_. Once you have looked through that material, most discussions of later material should make some sort of sense. After that, the almanacs for 1010 AC through 1013 AC will bring you completely up to date. ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 22:36:12 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... Leroy Van Camp III writes: > I am sure many are already aware of this, but I thought I would post > it to the list anyway, let everyone know... > The complete text of GAZ13 The Shadow Elves is available for > downloading. This is from a TSR sanctioned site, and is completely legal. > The files can be found on the MPGN ftp site, or downloaded through the > (currently boring) Mystara Mailing List home page, which can be found > at... I downloaded it a few weeks ago. It has a lot of good info on Shadow Elf culture, but it is all pre-Alfheim Invasion so the political stuff isn't too relevant. Does anyone know if or when the artwork, or more importantly the maps, to the GAZ will be made available? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 22:46:53 EDT Subject: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + I picked up the Night Below campaign set a few months back for a song at a used book shop and was planning to run my players through it in my soon to begin Mystara campaign. Has anyone on the list run Night Below and Mystara? If so, where is a good location to set the above ground portions of the game (the Haranshire area)? In one of the books, they mention how tough it would be to get an audience with Stephen Karameikos to aprise him of the evil plot in the game, which would suggest that it could be set in Karameikos. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Maps for the e-GAZ13 On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Dave Brohman wrote: > Leroy Van Camp III writes: > > > The complete text of GAZ13 The Shadow Elves is available for > > downloading. This is from a TSR sanctioned site, and is completely legal. > > The files can be found on the MPGN ftp site, or downloaded through the > > (currently boring) Mystara Mailing List home page, which can be found > > at... > > I downloaded it a few weeks ago. It has a lot of good info on Shadow Elf > culture, but it is all pre-Alfheim Invasion so the political stuff isn't > too relevant. True, but then again some people don't play in a post-Wrath Mystara (myself included). > Does anyone know if or when the artwork, or more importantly the maps, to > the GAZ will be made available? After posting the announcement I sent off a letter to Sean, the TSR net.rep, asking him for permission to scan in the poster map that came with the original Gazetteer. If I get the go ahead, I will upload the files to MPGN, and post an announcement here. van891@uidaho.edu Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whatever I do, you mustn't try and stop me. My cries of success or screams of pain may well be inseparable." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Callandra Gaera'Dhan, _Tiamat_ ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:23:06 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + > I picked up the Night Below campaign set Odd; this is the first I've heard of the set, and you say it's set in Mystara? I must be slipping.. :) Could you post or email some details on the set, what it includes, and what it says about the gameworld? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1175 ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... Dave Brohman pontificated: > > I downloaded it a few weeks ago. It has a lot of good info on Shadow Elf > culture, but it is all pre-Alfheim Invasion so the political stuff isn't > too relevant. > > Does anyone know if or when the artwork, or more importantly the maps, to > the GAZ will be made available? > Is this the same as the paper version, or are there additional information in there? If it is the same, then does anyone know why TSR decide to put this on the net, and do they plan to put any other gaz. on the net? - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 1:26:45 EDT Subject: [Mystara] + Mystara Netbook + I downloaded the Mystara netbook and it is absolute rubbish on my comuter. I assume that the WPD file extension is a WordPerfect file (I use WORD). I can convert it both the WORD and MS Works, but is a confused mess. The formatting is way off and there seems to be a great deal of info missing. Has somene converted it to WORD successfully? If so, could you e-mail it to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 21:25:52 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Campaign Goals (was Re: Level Advancement) - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > From: Glenn Butcher \ Internet: (knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au) > In most of the moderate level+ games I have played in, the PC's tend to make > their own goals. Dm given goals are often ignored because the character isn't > interested. The party is always doing challenging and interesting missions > because they find their own. - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- <> I had always thought priority one was having fun. Everything else was secondary. If the DM is the only one who enjoys what they're doing, no one will have fun. Including the DM. J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: esp109@psu.edu (Eduardo Polanco) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 02:15:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... How does the online gazetteer differ from the one that was printed by TSR? Ed Polanco esp109@psu.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Get busy living or get busy dying." -Andy Dufrain, Shawshank Redemption "Every man dies. Not every man really lives." -William Wallace, Braveheart ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 1:42:58 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + Daniel Boese writes: > > I picked up the Night Below campaign set > > Odd; this is the first I've heard of the set, and you say it's set in > Mystara? I must be slipping.. :) > Could you post or email some details on the set, what it includes, and > what it says about the gameworld? It isn't set in Mystara, it is supposed to be usable in any AD&D setting (they mention FR, Greyhawk and Mystara as possibilities). Thst is why I was asking, to try to find how others had adapte it to Mystara and where they had set it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Dave Brohman pontificated: > > I downloaded it a few weeks ago. It has a lot of good info on Shadow Elf > > culture, but it is all pre-Alfheim Invasion so the political stuff isn't > > too relevant. > > > Is this the same as the paper version, or are there additional information > in there? If it is the same, then does anyone know why TSR decide to put > this on the net, and do they plan to put any other gaz. on the net? I have not looked at it close, but I am fairly certain it is no different than the original GAZ13. From ???@??? Thu Jul 18 12:11:02 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA12013; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 01:53:55 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA13786 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:34:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:34:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199607171534.KAA13786@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #163 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 9207aaee940e7d45ea7bdf3eaca1f331 The files were originally released some time ago on AOL, when the AD&D boxed sets were coming out. I am sure they released the information because no AD&D Shadow Elf product was on the board. And since the boxed sets shows them to rule Alfheim/Aengmor, they wanted to let people know all about them. They are quite unique, after all. Without this info, most people probably would just have made them drow. I don't know of any future releases of Gazetteers on the net, but I find it to be highly doubtful. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do I know what do I know? (I), never look back never look back (no). Stick it in me stick it in me (I), what do I see what do I see? (now)" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (A Higher Form of) Killing ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Mystara Netbook + On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Dave Brohman wrote: > I downloaded the Mystara netbook and it is absolute rubbish on my comuter. > I assume that the WPD file extension is a WordPerfect file (I use WORD). > I can convert it both the WORD and MS Works, but is a confused mess. The > formatting is way off and there seems to be a great deal of info missing. I use Word 6.0, and converted it successfully. It gave me an initial error, but I told it to procede. It took it a while, but it finally finished. I now have the file in Word 6.0 format, and will probably upload it to MPGN rather than mailing it out to the numerous people who requested it, due to copyright reasons. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Cthulhu, eh? I'll try and backstab him" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 17 07:36:13 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 17 Jul 96 03:36 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA09779 for mystara-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:10:48 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA09708 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:59:34 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA21860 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:57:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA19639 for mystara-l@io.com; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:58:17 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:58:17 -0400 Message-ID: <960716205806_578259894@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] What happened to the Known World after 1000? Content-Length: 631 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-16 07:06:52 EDT, fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it (GABRIELE FERRI) writes: << I used to play D&D and I read many Gazetteers, but, when I changed to AD&D, I haven't read anything about the Known World. I know that something is changed, but I don't know what exactly. Is there anyone who can tell me what happened? Thanks! >> The biggest changes are described in the boxed set _Wrath of the Immortals_. Once you have looked through that material, most discussions of later material should make some sort of sense. After that, the almanacs for 1010 AC through 1013 AC will bring you completely up to date. ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:47:22 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] AD&D characters & Immortals I have a problem: I've read the D&D 'Wrath of the Immortals' set, but I = don't know how to use the rules about 'how to gain immortality' in my = AD&D setting. The paths for immortality are still in use with AD&D? Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:22:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D characters & Immortals >I have a problem: I've read the D&D 'Wrath of the Immortals' set, but I >don't know how to use the rules about 'how to gain immortality' in my AD&D >setting. The paths for immortality are still in use with AD&D? > >Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it Gabriele, If you look at the last few pages (actually I think it's all on one page) of the "DM Options: High Level Campaigns" book there are rules for AD&D characters to achieve "Demi-powerdom" better known to OD&D players as "becoming an Initiate Immortal". The rules are primarily the same, and while they go into less detail then WotI or the Gold Box did about the exact nature of the quests they are more then enough to convert the existing paths of Immortality to fit better with AD&D. Whether or not you want to add the idea of Spheres (Energy, Matter, Time, Thought, and Entropy) into your campaign is entirely up to you. Given some of the changes to immortals between the Gold Box and WotI, Spheres have become less important anyway and particularly if you have Immortals of Mystara interacting with other Powers (like through a PlaneScape setting) you may be better off just dropping the entire Sphere concept. (IMC they're now just a loose associaition of "Mentor-Initiate" relationships that can happen to trace themselves back to 5 distinct paths/schools of thought. Since Immortals go to great lengths to find mortal candidates who are smiliar in their goals/beliefs about the universe to their own they these "paths" tend to stay together more because of their idealogical similarities then because they have to.) - -Bob p.s. And I can see the calls of heresy coming now for choosing to abandon the idea of Spheres. Well, bring 'em on... :-) - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:12:25 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elves and Aengmor At 01.15 14/07/96 EST, you wrote: > > Anyways, those are my opinions, as I'm trying to rationalize why/how >the city would rise to the surface and that Atzanteotl would gain a strong >following of shadow elves as predicted in JA. Can anyone see any flaws or >point out things I might have missed? > Now that I see all your reasons I must admit that you're right, and your mail gave me also several good campign ideas. Thanks. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:12:29 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion At 00.56 14/07/96 EST, you wrote: > An argument I brought up is that Rad and Rafiel were merely working >together and not necessarily friends. Someone pointed out that Rafiel (and >Rathanos) helped Rad return in the "Mark of Amber" adventure by guiding >Petit-Singe, and that Rad therefore owes them one. > I looked through the module and can't find any mention of any Immortal >helping Rad's side in this. If you could please tell me where this is >mentioned, it would be appreciated. I think it was mentioned at least 2 times, one is surely at page 64 in the paragraph about Veronique Gaudin. > Still, even without Rafiel's help in "Mark of Amber," Rad and Rafiel >might have become friends during the decade they worked together on the >Radiance during Wrath of the Immortals, so Rad might still be inclined to help >Rafiel out. > Yet I still say Rad is in hiding, not just from other Glantrians (I'm >sure he couldn't care less about Synn and her activities, just like any other >evil prince... he just doesn't want them to interfere with him), but from >other Immortals as well. If he becomes active again, they will know he is >back and a lot of the Immortals are going to want to question him on where he >has been and what the Old Ones did to him. He'll be an oddity that other >Immortals won't leave alone. He doesn't want that, so he stays in hiding, >even if it means not helping his friend Rafiel. I agree, but I don't think he will stay in hiding for long, my guess is that it will be back in AC 1020 or just after. BTW: I think that AC1000 was the first time he showed himself to other immortals, and he created quite a mess... > > Still, as someone else pointed out, Glantri can get involved by others >means besides Rad. Synn probably has a few shadow elf agents of her own >(something I take from the Mystara arcade games Tower of Doom and Shadows Over >Mystara. Why? Because I like the stories), so could easily use her weight to >try and help them in the chance of getting more minions. > As for Kol, I'm not sure on this one. The humanoids might help >because of Synn and because they hate elves. But they also hate shadow elves, >so could decide to stay neutral. I don't own it, but I think that in the Glantrian Boxed Set there was a mention at Kol being a Shadow Elf (BTW: I don't like this very much). > Malachie would oppose Synn, and Carlotina (the elf Princess if I >recall corectly) would vote against helping the shadow elves for sure. Carlotina is the Princess of Belcadiz elves, right ? In Gaz13 it says that some Shadow Elves spies among those elves, thus they could influence Carlotina's behaviour. > Then again, the shadow elves have many unique spells that I'm sure the >Great School of Magic would love to get in exchange for helping them... > Overall, I would say that Glantri would be too chaotic to predict what >will happen and whether or not they would participate or not. > I agree. > > > One last point which I would like to make is the Immortals and the >people of Mystara themselves. > The Brotherhood was defeated in Wrath and the other Immortals are aware >of the group. Odds are they will be watched for a while to prevent such >events from happening again. > Also, most of the people of Mystara (the Known World) are upset at the >events that have happened during Wrath of the Immortals. They dislike the >fact that the Immortals used them and their nations as pawns for their fights, >and that many died for no reason in the whole thing. The faith of Gareth is >gaining strength in Sind and Darokin right now. If word leaks out that the >Immortals are once again pushing for a war, I have a strange feeling that the >Immortals will lose many of their followers to this unknown new Immortal. I >think the Immortals themselves realize this and would think twice before >starting such a war again, especially with the same generation of humans still >alive and remembering bitterly the effects of the first Wrath of the >Immortals. Yes, they will continue to manipulate for power, but not to the >point at bringing the whole world to war again. > Finally, the last war has decimated most of the fighting population of >all nations. The nations have to recoup and gain strength again before >starting another massive war. Both Glantri and the Alfheim elves suffered >great losses from the plague and humanoids. These nations would more than >likely wait until their nations recoup their young and fighters before >starting another such fight... Just look at WWI and WWII here on Earth, there >was a complete generation between the wars (admitedly, not just to replenish >the soldiers, but it was one of the main factors). > I agree. I like the idea of a new war on Mystara, but not now. IMO we should wait until AC 1020 - 1025 for such a massive war. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #163 ***************************** mystara-digest Wednesday, 17 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 164 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:12:33 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Level Advancement At 10.17 14/07/96 -0700, you wrote: >> >> And IMO a system to assign XP related to gaming hours or gaming session is >> no good either because often we end our gaming session without doing nothing >> really adventurous. Just an example from last evening FR game session, this > >We've spent 4-hour sessions planning an attack on a castle and the like. >This isn't "adventurous" but it is important, so we do still get decent >XPs for it (if we didn't plan, we'd be creamed so fast...) With the standard system: If you didn't plan, you'd be creamed so fast, thus you wouldn't had managed to take the castle and kill (or imprison its occupants), so you would receive none (or few) XP. With your system you get XP while planning, otherwise you'll get less XP. In the end there is nothing different between the two system, but I think the standard one makes DM life easy. >> is what we did in about 4 hours of real time: speaking to the police about >> what happened in an inn the previous night, persuade our thief to give >> himself up, witness to his trial, introduce two new PCs (my new half-elf and >> the cleric that takes the place of the thief), quarrel over what to do next, >> go shopping and listen to a guy that proposed us to escort him in a trip. >> I don't think we deserve XP for what we did yesterday. >> >You didn't think it was worh XP because ...? > >a) it was boring? >b) it was trivial? >c) it wasn't action-packed? > It was neither boring, nor trivial, maybe it lacked action. Anyway most of us had fun, especially the Paladin that finally saw the hated thief in jail. > >You also mentioned that 0 XPs were what you "deserved." I disagree. >However big a boob any one player is during a session, they should still >get token XPs for showing up. We usually don't play if at least 5/6 of the players don't show up, so I don't agree with you. IMO a player should have fun when playing RPG; XP may help to make somebody have fun but they aren't the main thing, so you shouldn't give XP away to everyone that shows up. Adventures makes XP, but adventuring isn't the only way to have fun, thus you don't necessarily get XP in a good game session. Just my opinion. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:12:40 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Mystara FAQ v1.0 Herve Musseau sent me this and I send it to you. Feel free to comment this FAQ, anyway Herve will not be able to answer your messages till september. However I can forward him your comments. Note for the Admin.: Herve sent me also a html version of this FAQ, if you want to put it in the Mystara page just ask me. Mystara FAQ v1.0 by Herve Musseau musseauh@esiee.fr 10 July 1996 Q: What is Mystara? A: Mystara is an imaginary world created by TSR as a campaign world for roleplaying games using the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. Q: What is a roleplaying game? A: Roleplaying games are games in which people play the role of imaginary fantastic characters like warriors wizards and try to complete an adventure under the guidance of a game master. Q: I never heard of Mystara, but I know a setting called the Known World which looks pretty the same. What does this mean? A: Mystara got a name as a world only recently; before that, it was often referred to as the Known World, although Mystara is more than just the Known World. Q: So, what's Mystara? The Known World and what else? A: Mystara is basically composed of 2 main parts, the Outer World and the Hollow World, plus 2 moons, and other exotic settings. Q: A Hollow World? A: Yes. Mystara, unlike our earth, is hollow, an empty sphere. It has an internal sun that lights the interior world, making it inhabitable. It holds old civilizations that are now extinct on the Outer World, placed there by the Immortal with strong magic preventing them from evolving much. Q: And the Outer World? A: The Outer World is mostly like our Earth. It comprises: - - the Known World, where the most civilized countries are. - - Alphatia. - - the Savage Coast and Hule. - - the southern continent, called Davania. - - the eastern continent, called Skothar. Q: I've already heard of the Known World, and from the Hollow World too. What does all this mean? A: This is because Mystara is a very old world, one of the oldest created by TSR, and, as TSR grew, so did Mystara. All of these products are revelant to Mystara: - - Mystara, of course, - - the Known World and most stuff that were made for D&D (as opposed to AD&D), - - the Hollow World, - - Red Steel/the Savage Coast, - - Blackmoor. Also, some products bearing the label First Quest are related to Mystara. Q: Blackmoor? I know a Blackmoor, bur it's part of Greyhawk, isn't it? A: Blackmoor was, like Greyhawk, the campaign world of a TSR founder. It was later placed in Greyhawk and in the Known World (as a past kingdom in the later), effectively making two Blackmoor exist. It seems there is no relation between the two Blackmoor, however, although some people made the assumption. Q: Ok, and now what's Red Steel? A: Red Steel is a setting that is part of Mystara (west of the Known World), although it was released as a stand-alone setting. Q: You spoke of the Immortals, what are they? Are they Gods? A: Mystara has a different pantheon when compared to other D&D settings. Most notably, it has no gods but beings called Immortals. Immortals are mortals who, though their deeds, have reached a higher status granting them more power than mere mortals. Basically, however, Immortals are not very different from Gods of other settings. Q: Also you mentionned something about D&D not being AD&D. What does that mean? A: Mystara was the world designed to be used with the rules of D&D (often called OD&D to better distinct it from AD&D and from the generic D&D which could mean both; OD&D stands for Old D&D or Original D&D). It appears in the old boxed rules: the Expert box, the Companion box and the Master box. Most of the earlier modules designed for D&D were set in this world. Recently, however, Mystara has been converted to AD&D (along with Red Steel), but many people who play in Mystara do it with the old rules (or their reedition, Rules Cyclopedia). Q: I heard that the Mystara line was cancelled. Is this true? A: It is unfortunately true. And Red Steel is cancelled too. Q: But I saw in TSR's preview that there would be Red Steel modules released as online exclusive. What does this mean? A: TSR will release these modules for free on its site of MPGN at ftp:ftp.mpgn.com and on AOL and GEnie. Q: So, if TSR has dropped the line, how can I get new material for Mystara? A: There are many people on the web who love Mystara and have taken upon themselves to keep Mystara alive (and well alive). There is a mailing list dedicated to Mystara where people discuss together about Mystara, excahanging ideas, points of view, and more. To subscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@io.com. In the body, have the single line: subscribe Mystara-L . There are also many pages around the net dedicated to Mystara, sometimes with lots of interesting materials. The pages I am aware of are: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh : Herve's HomePage : the homepage of the writer of this FAQ http://www.io.com/~oryon/ : Leroy B. Van Camp III's Home Page : who maintains the mystara-l mailing list http://moray.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/%7Eknight/mystara/index.html : Knight's Mystara Homepage : contains plenty of material http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/diary : Fabrizio's Mystara Homepage : contains his Mystaran campaign description http://www.angelfire.com./pages1/estlor/ : Matrix's Mystara Page http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ : Shawn's Mystara Site http://www.miniworld.com/adnd/ : Dungeon and Dragons Section : contains Toowin's travels and more ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/ : Mystara at MPGN http://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~msphil/fnn/ : The FNN Adventurer's Journal Q: Where can I find a complete list of the material published for Mystara? A: AFAIK there is no such list. However, there are partial lists: one about all adventures published by TSR for Mystara, one with all the rulebooks published by TSR for Mystara, one nwith all Dragon #s with the Voyage of the Princess Ark, one with all Dragon #s of adventures that take place in Mystara. Check the above links to find these lists. Also check TSR's list of products at http://members.aol.com/tsrinc/products.html. Q: Where can I find the FAQ for the Mystara mailing list? A: Check at http://www.io.com/~oryon/mmlfaq.htm. AFAIK there is no plain text version of this FAQ. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: esp109@psu.edu (Eduardo Polanco) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:00:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion >I don't own it, but I think that in the Glantrian Boxed Set there was a >mention at Kol being a Shadow Elf (BTW: I don't like this very much). I thought that Kol being a shadow elf was an interesting twist. Kol is not a shadow elf spy or infiltrator. He does not even know that he is a shadow elf. He was one of the deformed babies that shadow elf parents discard shortly after birth. He was found by kobolds and raised as a kobold. This would explain why he is so tall (4 1/2 feet tall) and so adept with magic. Ed Polanco esp109@psu.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Get busy living or get busy dying." -Andy Dufrain, Shawshank Redemption "Every man dies. Not every man really lives." -William Wallace, Braveheart ------------------------------ From: remoore@nando.net Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:11:41 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] I'm sorry... I do apologize if I offended anyone by my previous post. I gladly will take your remarks into consideration in future posts, and hope this goes behind us. Note to ADMIN: you didn't piss me off or scare me away. Oh, and nice sig. Regarding the Italian DM: Isn't role-playing about to be banned in Italy? There have been long threads regarding this on rec.games.frp.dnd... Maleviro Jade ------------------------------ From: remoore@nando.net Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:19:22 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Re: Spheres, Carlotina Erewan Abandoning spheres... hmm... Not a bad thing, but not the most obvious choice. While the Immortality Spheres can be a bit restricting, you couldn't say that any more for the spheres than you could for PC classes. Someone said Carlotina of Erewan might be influenced by Shadow Elf spies. However, I disagree. Elves seem much more sensitive to racial differences than humans do. I think she'd know the difference. Also, consider that if Kol sided with the Shadow Elves, Carlotina would vehemently oppose them. She's already got her prejudices about humanoids, and after the Council of Princes gave aid to Kol in AC 1012, but neglected her during the humanoid invasions in AC 1010, she's pretty ticked at him for that. Just my 2 cents... Maleviro Jade ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Wed Jul 17 19:31:59 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 17 Jul 96 15:31 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA14804 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:25:41 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA14747 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:23:38 -0500 Received: from parsifal.nando.net (root@parsifal.nando.net [152.52.2.7]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17633 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:12:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from remoore.nando.net (grail1106.nando.net [152.52.28.206]) by parsifal.nando.net (8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA03563 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:13:11 -0400 (EDT) From: remoore@nando.net Message-ID: <31ED2CDD.41AB@nando.net> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:11:41 -0400 Organization: Not Applicable X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] I'm sorry... Content-Length: 391 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I do apologize if I offended anyone by my previous post. I gladly will take your remarks into consideration in future posts, and hope this goes behind us. Note to ADMIN: you didn't piss me off or scare me away. Oh, and nice sig. Regarding the Italian DM: Isn't role-playing about to be banned in Italy? There have been long threads regarding this on rec.games.frp.dnd... Maleviro Jade ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:03:43 -0700 Subject: [Mystara] The Glantrian tavern I created A while ago I attached this file to a message, but it seems that no one got it, so I'm not spamming, okay. This is some Glantrian material that I created when we decided to create some, and I hope it's useable and fun for you. Everyone, please create some stuff too so Mystara does not die. It is very important. Well enough talk, here's the stuff: Taverne du Sanglier Ivre (Drunken Boar Tavern) =09 A part of the Glantrian Tavern series =09 by David Melik, an avid Mystara fan This unique Glantrian tavern is located in the town of Loupmont (Details of Loupmont are in PC4: Night Howlers). On the map of Loupmont, it is the southernmost building of the group of buildings that is south of the northwestern gate of Loupmont. The tavern is a sturdy, two-story, sort of light colored wooden building. Above the yellow letters of the sign is a mural of a boar dancing on its hind legs, with a mug of liquor, a red nose, and a crazy, intensely amused look on its face. It was done by a famous Glantrian artist. It is open from 10 to 10. It has decent prices for drinks, but the owners original brews, "Les Spiriteux du Visions =C9trange" cost 4 times as much as the= normal drink. These are detailed later. Inside are excellent oaken bar stools, chairs, and large round tables, which the owner really likes, and really does not like them abused in any way. In the tavern area, along with wooden beams, the roof is held up by 4 tusks of gargantuan boars, with intricate carvings of important events of Glantrian history, going from each corner to the center, even though the roof is prism-shaped. There is a large From ???@??? Thu Jul 18 12:11:14 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA19116; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:41:43 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA16917 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:28:16 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:28:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199607180028.TAA16917@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #164 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 6c0e9fac82fb1009fb7861a90d4b011b fireplace on the southwestern wall, beside the bar. The bar is in the center of the building, against the wall that separates the tavern from the rooms. The door to these is between the bar and the stairs, which are on the northwestern side. The few rooms behind the tavern area (in the northwestern rectangular part of the building) are available for a slightly more expensive cost than the local inns, as this is a tavern, not an inn. Upstairs lives the owner, in a large room. There is no rivalry between the Drunken Boar Tavern and Taverne du Loup Savage. In fact, the owner is friends with Villebois. Perhaps they went adventuring together in the past. The tavern is a meeting place for groups of werecreatures. The owner of the tavern is Jacques-Pierre Pommet=EAte. His stats are: Magic-User 6th; AC D&D: 8, AD&D: 10; hp 15; #AT 1; Dmg 1D4 (dagger) or by spell; MV D&D: 120' 40', AD&D: 12'; ML D&D: 9, AD&D: 75%; AL D&D: neutral, AD&D: true neutral (with good tendencies); STR 9, INT 18, WIS 17, DEX 14, CON 12, CHA 16, COM 15 (These ability scores were rolled using the method of rolling 4D6, and dropping the lowest roll.). =20 He has skills such as: alchemy, herbalism(2), magical engineering, brewing(3), cooking(2), gambling, storytelling, food tasting, fire-building, etc. His additional languages include dwarf and halfling. He has most of his weapon specialization/mastery in dagger. These various skills are neither complete nor necessary. The DM should modify everything to their own taste, of course. His personality and background are: Pierre is a somewhat retired adventurer, who was born on the day of Thaumont 15th, 967 AC. He was born and raised in Loupmont. He learned how to run a tavern from his uncle Marinois, who previously owned the tavern. His uncle was also a wereboar. When he was 19, he began avidly adventuring, and continued to help at the tavern between adventures. When he was 23 years old and 3rd level he served for two years in La Garde d'Obsidienne as Sire Malachie sometimes needs a wizard or two, and then returned to a life of adventuring. When he served in The Obsidian Guard, he was given an obsidian dagger +1 instead of a sword, as he is a wizard, which he still has, among other magical items. In 996 AC, his uncle was brutally murdered by an evil travelling member of The Fellowship of Were-Hunters who met him in wereform in La For=EAt des Ombres, on the trail to Vignes. As Marinois had no sons, Pierre inherited the tavern from him. He lost much of his adventuring ambition and settled back down in Loupmont to run the Drunken Boar Tavern. Pierre is an active member of The Canine Protection Society (or practically, but not officially a member if you don't allow wereboars in this organization in your campaign). He often performs tasks and occasionaly goes on adventures to help Sire Malachie, The Canine Protection Society, or werecreature society in general. He might go on adventures in PC4 like The Black Horse, The White Wolf of Morlay, or similar ones. He goes on adventures about two to four times a year now, leaving the tavern in the hands of someone that has been working for him for a long time, who he trusts. In the his spare time, he does magical research and whatever other magely things mages do, and reads because of curiosity and for fun. He is a 6' 1", 210 lbs. portly man, with a pinkish tint of skin and dark brown hair and eyes. He is a friendly person who likes conversations, a good bartender. He is not afraid to say what he wants when he wants to or has to. He will not speak or act very foolishly though. He has an average spellbook, and always has spells that he might need memorized, in case of a bar fight, and that could help with bartending. He first tries to sleep, charm, hold, etc. troublemakers, and he has also devised a spell called Pierre's Stunning Missile, that is identical to magic missile except that it does double damage, which is nonlethal. Pierre's famous original brew, his specialty is "Les Spiriteux du Visions =C9trange", or "Liquor of Strange Visions", locally known as "The Weird Liquor". There are versions of it for all standard drinks. One might ask for "a mug of weird ale" for example. Pierre buys a certain type of extrememly aged cheese from a local farmer, who is named Bob or something. This cheese is not normally consumed at such an age, because of the old and extensive growth of the mold, which is hallucinogenic and tastes very bad. There is actually a sort of cheese mold like this on earth. In this state, the mold probably has a negative effect on the body if eaten much, or even a little, but it is a medieval time, and no one really knows about this. The moldy parts are removed from the cheese. Then, it is included in the mixture when the liquor is fermented. Afterwards, concentrated juice of the appropriate type is added, because most people find the taste of the mold disgusting. Pierre has the base ready, and mixes the desired type of juice or other liquor with it for customers. Popular mixtures that he keeps on hand are with standard drinks mixed with the concentrated juice of their ingredients, or with mint, apple cider, wine, and whisky. he also sells bottles of desired mixtures, and the base so one can mix their own desires. When someone quaffs it, they will begin to hallucinate in 2D3 plus their constitution adjustment minutes. Pierre has experience, so the recipie includes enough so the drinker is normally still in touch with reality. Because of this, the effect on the body is probably not as bad as it would be otherwise. This probably depends on constitution. Anything from their imagination and memory can appear. This probably depends on intelligence and/or wisdom. If a character frequently drinks this brew, it should eventually effect certain organs of their body adversely, probably their= brain. I hope you have as much fun using this resource as I will, and have had in creating it. That's about all for now. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@IO.COM Date: Wed Jul 17 20:25:42 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Wed, 17 Jul 96 16:25 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA14836 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:26:25 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA14757 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:24:29 -0500 Received: from parsifal.nando.net (root@parsifal.nando.net [152.52.2.7]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18172 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:20:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from remoore.nando.net (grail1106.nando.net [152.52.28.206]) by parsifal.nando.net (8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA04902 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:20:52 -0400 (EDT) From: remoore@nando.net Message-ID: <31ED2EAA.4C6E@nando.net> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:19:22 -0400 Organization: Not Applicable X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Re: Spheres, Carlotina Erewan Content-Length: 759 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Abandoning spheres... hmm... Not a bad thing, but not the most obvious choice. While the Immortality Spheres can be a bit restricting, you couldn't say that any more for the spheres than you could for PC classes. Someone said Carlotina of Erewan might be influenced by Shadow Elf spies. However, I disagree. Elves seem much more sensitive to racial differences than humans do. I think she'd know the difference. Also, consider that if Kol sided with the Shadow Elves, Carlotina would vehemently oppose them. She's already got her prejudices about humanoids, and after the Council of Princes gave aid to Kol in AC 1012, but neglected her during the humanoid invasions in AC 1010, she's pretty ticked at him for that. Just my 2 cents... Maleviro Jade ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:11:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres, Carlotina Erewan >Abandoning spheres... hmm... Not a bad thing, but not the most obvious >choice. While the >Immortality Spheres can be a bit restricting, you couldn't say that any >more for the spheres than you could >for PC classes. Well, I wasn't saying abandon them... I realize now that's probably what it sounded like. What I was saying was that Spheres don't really come into play until Immortal Level anyway, or when Immortals start to have more then a vague role in the campaign. So, if you have an AD&D Mystara game that you've been playing for a long time you don't suddenly have to find a way to make Sphere's fit into the game, because they're not that important and they're not really used anywhere EXCEPT as a means of dividing Immortals into different factions. (It actually probably stems from the whole wierd Elemental fascination that early OD&D works had. 4 elements, 4 spheres, 4 main human character classes, yadda, yadda, yadda.) Since AD&D doesn't revlove as much around the elemental planes, and don't only have 4 avaiable human classes you loose 2 out of the 3 reasons for having them in the first place. (Speaking of which if anyone can tell me why in OD&D Fire and Air are opposite elements, instead of fire and water, they could help me with something that's kept me up a couple nights in the past 15 years. :-)) Mostly it just seemed like Spheres were a way of realting Immortals and Elemental Planes. (Which I may point out are some of the few planes in OD&D that have any real background done about them, so it was really all they could tie them to.) In AD&D there are exhaustive info on many of the planes, already broken down by idealogical means...so why bother limiting them to 4? (5 if you count Entropy). I think the books define a sphere as "A sphere is an actual, virtually unlimited, power source Immortals draw their power from". I say "A sphere is a general collection of ideas and belief's, in essence it's an Immortals Alignment, except it doesn't relate to Good or Evil it relates to one dominate theory or structure of the MultiVerse." IMC Immortals of "Energy" spend as much time working together as they do in the "standard" model, except that they do it because they all share the same belief's, mostly because Immortals chose mortals for Initiates that think like they do, not because they all get their power from some mysterious force called "Energy". (So in effect they form "Spheres" because they want to, not because there's any cosmic signifigance in it. It just happens that on "my" Mystara there are 5 dominante schools of thought (no pun intended) among the Immortals which keeps everything in step with all the other campaigns.) So basically, my advice was, and still is, "The idea of Spheres is a cute, simplistic way to break down the multiverse, and Immortal philosophy, into 5 basic areas of interest, like many of the ideas in OD&D do. It's really not necessary in AD&D because AD&D has many of the things OD&D lacks." (Like well-defined outer planes, more alignment freedom, and several instances of rules and examples detailing the bonds between a Power and their followers). WotI does touch on followers, but it never mentions the word "sphere" once when talking about an Immortals commitment to their followers, and vica versa. (So if Immortals get their power from their followers, their alignment determines what plane they live on and who/what their followers are, what's the Sphere for again?) In the Gold Box, Sphere had more of a meaning because all the powers of Immortals were broken down by sphere (in mighty big charts that I remember fondly :-)). It cost substantially more to use a power from another Immortals sphere then one from your own sphere. While I admit it was an interesting system, a long term battle between immortals, where a lot of powers are used, quickly became a bookkeeping nightmare. (And OD&D only had/has 13 mage spells/level standard, try doing it in AD&D when you can get a couple hundred spells/level from all the different source books out there, and an Immortal could use any of them, whenever he wanted, within TP allowanance of course. And that doesn't count cleric powers either.) > Someone said Carlotina of Erewan might be influenced by Shadow Elf >spies. However, I disagree. Elves >seem much more sensitive to racial differences than humans do. I think >she'd know the difference. > Also, consider that if Kol sided with the Shadow Elves, Carlotina >would vehemently oppose them. She's >already got her prejudices about humanoids, and after the Council of >Princes gave aid to Kol in AC 1012, but >neglected her during the humanoid invasions in AC 1010, she's pretty >ticked at him for that. Since I've found a couple more people who like Kol being a SE, let me retrot out an idea or two that were laughed at heartily months ago. :-) Kol is trying desperately for an heir, kobolds aren't known for their phenominal life spans (remember he doesn't know he's a SE) and he has to have a magic using heir to take over his principality when he dies. Should he discover he is indeed a Shadow Elf, I'd have to think the FIRST thing he'd do is try to either capture, deal with or god fobid even try to woo a female Shadow Elf to have an heir. True, that means his lifespan is now measured in centuries so the need for an heir isn't too pressing, but he's been wanting one for so long he's probably still in "I'll be dead of old-age in 5-10 years" mode. (There shouldn't be much problem having a magic using heir once he realizes his true race.) Depending on how he does this, it could get pretty interesting. (What if the shadow elves families fight one another for their daughter to become Kol's mate? After all, principalities have been known to be passed to magic-wielding spouses or children of a slain Prince/Princess wouldn't having a daughter being Royalty be more appealing then living in a decaying forest to some of the SE's anyway?) I admit to knowing basically nil about the Shadow Elves myself (gotta get that Gaz13 from Mpgn.) so someone help me flesh this out. :-) - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 19:55:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Mystara Netbook + - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Wednesday, 17-Jul-96 12:36 AM > > From: Leroy Van Camp III \ Internet: (van891@uidaho.edu) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Mystara Netbook + > > On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Dave Brohman wrote: > > > I downloaded the Mystara netbook and it is absolute rubbish on my comuter. > > I assume that the WPD file extension is a WordPerfect file (I use WORD). > > I can convert it both the WORD and MS Works, but is a confused mess. The > > formatting is way off and there seems to be a great deal of info missing ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #164 *****************************