mystara-digest Wednesday, 17 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 165 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael S Lewis Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:52:51 CDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + > I picked up the Night Below campaign set a few months back for a song at a > used book shop and was planning to run my players through it in my soon to > begin Mystara campaign. > > Has anyone on the list run Night Below and Mystara? If so, where is a > good location to set the above ground portions of the game (the Haranshire > area)? In one of the books, they mention how tough it would be to get an > audience with Stephen Karameikos to aprise him of the evil plot in the > game, which would suggest that it could be set in Karameikos. > I think at some point they mention talking to Etienne D'Amberville as well. I'm running the Night Below campaign now, and it is nominally in Mystara. I put it west (and slightly north) of Glantri City, far enough that they wouldn't run to Glantri City every time they needed something, but close enough that they can go there in times of need. So far they haven't gone back, but I expect they will before hitting the meat of the adventure in Book II of the campaign. (I'll avoid specifics to keep this spoiler-free if I can) However, my experience may not be as useful to you, as I am using a very free hand with the world of Mystara. The political situation in my Mystara isn't nearly as volatile as it is in the official one, and magic is somewhat rarer. Major NPCs from the official world do exist, although I doubt it would occur to any of my players that they could or should let King Stefan or Etienne know what's going on. The PCs have come up against Bargle and lived to tell the tale, and the Iron Ring was once a thorn in their side. But I have tried to minimalize the introduction of major NPCs from the Mystara world, in favor of emphasizing the NPCs of note from the Night Below set. On another note, and anyone wishing to avoid even the smallest of spoilers should stop reading now, have you or anyone else running this adventure gone through the Goblins of the Ring part yet? I was amazed at how much different the way my PCs handled the situation was from what the book laid out for us. I'd be interested to hear how that unfolded for anyone else. - -- Michael Lewis mslewis@iastate.edu http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mslewis ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 19:55:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps for the e-GAZ13 - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 16-Jul-96 08:51 PM > From: Leroy Van Camp III \ Internet: (van891@uidaho.edu) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > Subject: [Mystara] Maps for the e-GAZ13 > True, but then again some people don't play in a post-Wrath Mystara (myself > included). - ------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Thanks for that note, Leroy. As I've said before, I'd prefer to play out all of the wonderful possibilities in the Gazetteer series before I blow it all to hell! In fact, I'd probably prefer to create the future myself, although I might draw some inspiration from published materials. That way I can incorporate some of my PC's actions. Shelby ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 19:55:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Campaign Goals (was Re: Level Advancement) - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 16-Jul-96 09:25 PM > From: J. Ovard \ Internet: (jovard@polarnet.com) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > Subject: [Mystara] Campaign Goals (was Re: Level Advancement) > > < He invites players to participate. He may know his players, and know what they > like, but he won't enjoy DM'ing unless he is doing what *he* wants. He knows > what kind of world he's interested in, what rules he likes to use, what type of > roleplaying he enjoys (ie hacknslash, theatrical or whatever), and what kind of > adventures he wants to run. If some players hint at adventuring possibilities > that spark his creativity, great. But if he's not interested, then play what > you signed up for. The players know what *they* want, granted. But they can > move to another DM if they don't find it. The DM can't run what he doesn't > enjoy anyway. > Shelby>> > > I had always thought priority one was having fun. Everything else was > secondary. If the DM is the only one who enjoys what they're doing, no one will > have fun. Including the DM. > J. Ovard - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Granted, but my point is that the DM is the constant; has to be that way. Players come and go. The DM, running the game he envisions, is having fun. With "compatible" players (who are then also having fun). Incompatible players must move on. Essentially, the DM "moving on" is the same thing as incompatible players leaving. There are always players. If the range of the DM's 'fun zone' is great enough to encompass present players, they don't need to move on. But the DM cannot run a game that he doesn't find 'fun.' Thus, the original comment that sparked my response was: >Dm given goals are often ignored because the character isn't interested.< What?!? Well, if I'm DMing with compatible players, what I've prepared as an adventure will spark their interest. Anything else pretty much makes the DM's work and vision useless. I don't have any trouble finding players. But, has the concept of the DM changed so much since I started as a high school junior in 1978? The DM creates the world, he sets the stage, he is the guiding force, and his judgements are final. Ignore the DM because you're not interested? Find another game, or play solitaire! Players react, DM's act. And if a PC isn't "compatible" with the DM's adventure goals, play a new PC or take yours elsewhere. The DM's world is "IT." Example, I lay out a campaign which involves some LG plotline, like saving the kingdom. I inform the players to create a LG/NG party of "heroes." One rolls up a CE cleric. I'm going to tell him that PC is incompatible with my campaign, try again. Conversely, from the player POV, I've played PC's and found them to be incompatible with the DM's vision. They retire from the game, or I do. Shelby Oh, and by the way, if this begins to go too far we can take it to private email. :-) ------------------------------ From: Johnson Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:03:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements Robert Kaelin wrote: > > >Abandoning spheres... hmm... Not a bad thing, but not the most obvious > >choice. While the > >Immortality Spheres can be a bit restricting, you couldn't say that any > >more for the spheres than you could > >for PC classes. > > Well, I wasn't saying abandon them... I realize now that's probably what > it sounded like. What I was saying was that Spheres don't really come into > play until Immortal Level anyway, or when Immortals start to have more then > a vague role in the campaign. So, if you have an AD&D Mystara game that > you've been playing for a long time you don't suddenly have to find a way > to make Sphere's fit into the game, because they're not that important and > they're not really used anywhere EXCEPT as a means of dividing Immortals > into different factions. (It actually probably stems from the whole wierd > Elemental fascination that early OD&D works had. 4 elements, 4 spheres, 4 > main human character classes, yadda, yadda, yadda.) Since AD&D doesn't > revlove as much around the elemental planes, and don't only have 4 avaiable > human classes you loose 2 out of the 3 reasons for having them in the first > place. (Speaking of which if anyone can tell me why in OD&D Fire and Air > are opposite elements, instead of fire and water, they could help me with > something that's kept me up a couple nights in the past 15 years. :-)) The difference between OD&D version of elements and AD&D version is not really that great. The OD&D version simply takes into account a few more things, and is, in my opinion, better. In AD&D, fire and water are opposite mainly because water puts out fire. In OD&D water has dominance over fire (see page 64 of the Rules Cyclopedia), but fire does not have dominance over water. It has dominance over earth. This is because earth burns. Earth then has dominance over air, because it fills up space. Air has dominance over water because the air will create bubbles, breaking up the water. This forms a circle placing air and fire opposite one another, and earth and water opposite each other. They are said to be in "opposition" because neither one has any real power over the other. This creates merely hostility, resulting in a penalty to the reaction roll (if you use reaction rolls), but nothing else. The AD&D system doesn't really work. Water is opposite to fire, so, for example, a fire elementalist cannot use water spells. This makes sense. However, why can't a water elementalist use fire spells? What effect does fire have on water? Who ever heard of fire putting out water? The same situation occurs with Earth and Air. Earth and air are opposites, but what power does air really have over earth? Not much. The OD&D version is based on more historical views of the elements. The AD&D version seems to have been created to keep things simple (so much for the "Advanced"). My own AD&D Mystara campaign uses the OD&D version of elements because to me it makes more sense. So, in my game and fire elementalist cannot use water spells, but a water elementalist cannot use air. An air elementalist cannot use earth and an earth elementalist cannot use fire. For those using the old gold Immortals set, this also takes into account the way spheres affect one another. I hope this makes things clearer for you. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ From: Johnson Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:19:05 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] error correction In my last message, I my mention checking the Rules Cyclopedia. The page I list is wrong. It should be page 264. Sorry about that. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 03 Feb 1980 08:59:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion >I don't own it, but I think that in the Glantrian Boxed Set there was a >mention at Kol being a Shadow Elf (BTW: I don't like this very much). This could be possible as the shadow elves have a habit of dumping their "disformed" children in the middle of nowhere and then Rafiel leads the humanoids to uncover them. Kol could very easily be a disformed shadow elf raised by the Kobolds..... ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 20:38:06 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + Dave Brohman writes: > > I picked up the Night Below campaign set a few months back for a song at a > used book shop and was planning to run my players through it in my soon to > begin Mystara campaign. > > Has anyone on the list run Night Below and Mystara? If so, where is a > good location to set the above ground portions of the game (the Haranshire > area)? In one of the books, they mention how tough it would be to get an > audience with Stephen Karameikos to aprise him of the evil plot in the > game, which would suggest that it could be set in Karameikos. I haven't heard of Night Below. When was it published? BTW - Where did you get this game? Do they have any other old gaming stuff? Geoff > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca > Carleton University > > Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:51:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Modules Location O have not ignored any of you who replied to this message. I have been having problems with the puter lately. I cannot get a complete list of what they have, give me a list of what you want and I will try to get you prices BEFORE I go this time, if not, I will get you prices while I am there and see if you approve first. ok? OK! Thanks, have fun Joe ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:08:21 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Glantrian tavern thing To add one quick idea to the pile (yes, you don't have to detail an entire tavern.. a single drink, personality, or even a barstool if you like, is worth the effort.. :) )... Glimmerwine: A recent 'novelty' item, brewed by an anonymous low-level mage in the south of New Averoigne, this beverage is only average in quality. What makes it unique is the liberal application of /Continual Light/ spells to the vines, grapes, and wine itself during the fermentation. Which adds up to a shimmering pink-to-reddish light shining from every bottle.. it's replacing candles as the centerpiece-of-choice in romantic restaurants in Glantri City. One slight unforseen side effect is that after copious quantities are drunk in a short time, the imbiber develps a faint sheen to his skin, outlining him quite distinctly in the dark for members of the Unseen Hand. (As a novelty item, it is expensive (10 gp per bottle), and anybody who can afford more than two bottles is an /excellent/ target, especially after he's drank them.. :) ) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca aka the Mystara-fan ------------------------------ From: Joe Duke Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:51:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Modules Location O have not ignored any of you who replied to this message. I have been having problems with the puter lately. I cannot get a complete list of what they have, give me a list of what you want and I will try to get you prices BEFORE I go this time, if not, I will get you prices while I am there and see if you approve first. ok? OK! Thanks, have fun Joe ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 03 Feb 1980 08:59:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... > The complete text of GAZ13 The Shadow Elves is available for >downloading. This is from a TSR sanctioned site, and is completely legal. > > The maps are not currently available. Do you know if they will be available in the future? ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 03 Feb 1980 08:59:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages > Well, the culture of Bellayne is actually more like Victorian England, >so states the Princess Ark series. As far as Oreintal cultures, the only >one that was presented was that of Ochalea, or, failing that, the village >of Lamsa in eastern Glantri - the denizens of which are descended from the >Ethengarians. As far as Africans go, you'd best look at the Yavdlom >peoples, the Karimari of Ulimwengu (also on the Serpent Peninsula), the >Pearl Islanders, or the Tanagoro. According to the Red Steel bosed set, Bellayne is very much an oriental culture. But what about the Jennites or Ethengar? Both are oriental settings, although more in the style of The Horde than anything else. Ulimwengu is more of an ancient australian/outback than an african setting. However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 17:33:15 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Campaign Goals (was Re: Level Advancement) I see your point, I had just never taken such a businesslike attitude towards roleplaying. I generally play with people I know, so Players aren't so abundant. I can't just quit over a little difference of opinion. Although the DM has great affect on the game, the players basically run it. I've found that no matter how well planned an adventure might be, the players will find a way to go as far from what they were "supposed" to do as possible. In these cases, it is the DM who reacts to the Player's actions. J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] I'm sorry... On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 remoore@nando.net wrote: > I do apologize if I offended anyone by my previous post. I gladly will > take your remarks into consideration in future posts, and hope this goes > behind us. Note to ADMIN: you didn't piss me off or scare me away. Sounds good. I just like people to remember that the list is populated by a wide varity of tastes and preferences. Welcome aboard. > Oh, and nice sig. Thanks... which one? I have seven. :) Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Cthulhu, eh? I'll try and backstab him" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Non-Wrath Campaigns On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > Thanks for that note, Leroy. As I've said before, I'd prefer to play out all > of the wonderful possibilities in the Gazetteer series before I blow it all > to hell! In fact, I'd probably prefer to create the future myself, although > I might draw some inspiration from published materials. That way I can > incorporate some of my PC's actions. This is kind of my current attitude. I love the world as set out in the Gazetteers, and have a multitude of ideas to explore. I deas that could keep me occupied for years. With the exception of the Shadow Elf takeover of Alfheim and the sinking of Alphatia, I like much of the Immortals Wrath adventure. At some point in the future I may run it, and have several campaigns in the resultant world. Until then I'm happy with the world in its Gazetteer incarnation. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your world is dying, a shell of existence whose time has come to an end. I am here to show you rebirth, an evolution of being. The fact that millions shall die is of no consequence" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tiamat, _Darkglory_ ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Elements On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Johnson wrote: [some stuff on the OD&D element system] > The AD&D system doesn't really work. I would have to disagree with this. I rather like the whole AD&D elemental setup, especially the way the planes interact, creating the para-elemental and quasi-elemental planes. Such things are up to personal preference, of course, but I don't quite see how it "doesn't really work." Perhaps YMMV. > Water is opposite to fire, so, for example, a fire elementalist cannot > use water spells. This makes sense. However, why can't a water > elementalist use fire spells? What effect does fire have on water? Who > ever heard of fire putting out water? I don't know, sounds fairly logical to me. Fire and heat evaporates water. With enough heat water can evaporate at amazing speeds. Also, certain types of heat will not be put out by water. Try tossing water on burning titanium ('cause I am sure you have some laying around :) and see what happens. > The same situation occurs with Earth and Air. Earth and air are > opposites, but what power does air really have over earth? Not much. Air can have a huge effect on earth: airborne errosion. Over time, winds can do a lot to soil and rock. > The OD&D version is based on more historical views of the elements. The > AD&D version seems to have been created to keep things simple (so much > for the "Advanced"). With the way the elemental planes are currently setup, as outlined in the Planescape setting, I don't think they are exactly simple, at least not any more than the OD&D version. Besides, I doubt there was any real goal. I think differing authors simply came up with different ideas. > My own AD&D Mystara campaign uses the OD&D version > of elements because to me it makes more sense. So, in my game and fire > elementalist cannot use water spells, but a water elementalist cannot > use air. An air elementalist cannot use earth and an earth elementalist > cannot use fire. As a person can probably tell, I use the AD&D system. It works fine for me, and is part of the bigger whole detailed in the Planescape setting, of which I am rather fond. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... On Sun, 3 Feb 1980, Joe Duncan wrote: > > > The complete text of GAZ13 The Shadow Elves is available for > >downloading. This is from a TSR sanctioned site, and is completely legal. > > > > > The maps are not currently available. > > Do you know if they will be available in the future? I have asked Sean, the TSR Net.Rep, about scanning them in and uploading them to the MPGN ftp site, but am still waiting for a response. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do I know what do I know? (I), never look back never look back (no). Stick it in me stick it in me (I), what do I see what do I see? (now)" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (A Higher Form of) Killing ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #165 ***************************** From ???@??? Fri Jul 19 16:44:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA29895; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:12:09 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA20073 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 06:40:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 06:40:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199607181140.GAA20073@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #166 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 616916c3182f0c382e9fb97f0725b266 mystara-digest Thursday, 18 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 166 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rosseroo@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:58:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... >I don't know of any future releases of Gazetteers on the net, but I >find it to be highly doubtful. I've heard from an inside source that the Red Steel MC that was done by Ted Zuvich is to be released on the net rather than being printed. No idea as to when or any further details. tony ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jul 18 05:11:05 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 18 Jul 96 01:11 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA18400 for mystara-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:10:34 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA18348 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:02:20 -0500 Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA25146 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:57:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA14695 for mystara-l@io.com; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:58:10 -0400 From: Rosseroo@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:58:10 -0400 Message-ID: <960717235808_158663085@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the Net... Content-Length: 290 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com >I don't know of any future releases of Gazetteers on the net, but I >find it to be highly doubtful. I've heard from an inside source that the Red Steel MC that was done by Ted Zuvich is to be released on the net rather than being printed. No idea as to when or any further details. tony ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:48:21 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres, Carlotina Erewan > Someone said Carlotina of Erewan might be influenced by Shadow Elf spies. However, I disagree. Elves > seem much more sensitive to racial differences than humans do. I think she'd know the difference. There seems to be a slight misunderstanding here; F. Paoli was propabply speeking of Princess Carnelia de Belcadiz not Carlotina of Erewan, when he spoke of Carlotina de Belcadiz. Those two names seems to get mixed all the time... Anyways, It might be true that shadowelves might spy on Belcadiz, even sometimes making an influence on them, though it is an entirely different question wether or not Carnelia knows it. I would be most likely to believe, that there are a few Shadowelf spies in the principality of Belcadiz, But with Carnelia knowing their existence, but choosing not to pursuit them too much, as long as they dont get to be too annoying (its easier to have an known enemy, than an unknown). Just some thoughts... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:04:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + I wouldn't set this module in Mystara without a lot of adjustments -- the major monsters in this module are not part of the Mystaran Underdark, and the aboveground map does not match any known area of the Known World. But it would be fascinating to see how somebody does these adjustments. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:04:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion In a message dated 96-07-17 11:57:12 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << Carlotina is the Princess of Belcadiz elves, right ? In Gaz13 it says that some Shadow Elves spies among those elves, thus they could influence Carlotina's behaviour. >> Carlotina is Princess of Erewan -- Carnelia is Princess of Belcadiz. But Shadow Elf influence is hardly necessary to ensure how these two would vote. Whatever one favors, the other will oppose. The only way either of their votes would matter would be if Synn succeeds in getting Carlotina deposed as Princess -- after all, if her Principality is entirely conquered by goblinoids from the Broken Lands, then she has no more rights than Prince Innocenti to be regarded as a Glantrian Princess. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jul 18 08:44:09 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 18 Jul 96 04:44 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA19519 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:09:42 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA19512 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:08:38 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA05960 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:04:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA07202 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:04:53 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:04:53 -0400 Message-ID: <960718040452_240285296@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + Content-Length: 293 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I wouldn't set this module in Mystara without a lot of adjustments -- the major monsters in this module are not part of the Mystaran Underdark, and the aboveground map does not match any known area of the Known World. But it would be fascinating to see how somebody does these adjustments. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jul 18 09:00:58 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 18 Jul 96 05:00 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA19534 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:10:03 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA19511 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:08:37 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA05959 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:04:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA09258 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:04:57 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:04:57 -0400 Message-ID: <960718040456_240285278@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Invasion Content-Length: 756 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-17 11:57:12 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << Carlotina is the Princess of Belcadiz elves, right ? In Gaz13 it says that some Shadow Elves spies among those elves, thus they could influence Carlotina's behaviour. >> Carlotina is Princess of Erewan -- Carnelia is Princess of Belcadiz. But Shadow Elf influence is hardly necessary to ensure how these two would vote. Whatever one favors, the other will oppose. The only way either of their votes would matter would be if Synn succeeds in getting Carlotina deposed as Princess -- after all, if her Principality is entirely conquered by goblinoids from the Broken Lands, then she has no more rights than Prince Innocenti to be regarded as a Glantrian Princess. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 05:38:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres, Carlotina Erewan If you are willing to let Kol indulge in a little goblinoid brutality, there is a more direct way that he can secure himself an heir once he discovers that he is a Shadow Elf: He could kidnap an Erewan Elf and marry her by force. Synn, in particular, would certainly encourage such a plan. Also, I don't think that Kol has several centuries to resolve the problem of an heir. From what I have seen, these "deformed" Shadow Elves mature at the rate of Humans, not of Elves. I would suspect that he has the life span of a Half-Elf at best, as would any of his offspring. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 05:38:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements In a message dated 96-07-17 21:26:38 EDT, Robert Kaelin writes: << Since AD&D doesn't > revlove as much around the elemental planes, and don't only have 4 avaiable > human classes you loose 2 out of the 3 reasons for having them in the first > place. >> Actually, there are only four major class groups in AD&D -- Warrior, Wizard, Priest, and Rogue. All AD&D classes except for the Psionicist fall into one of these groups. And you will notice that Psionicists are found on the Savage Coast but nowhere else on Mystara. But it seems to me that an AD&D Mystara campaign could use a sixth Sphere associated with the Positive Material plane (as Entropy is associated with the Negative Material plane). Obviously this sphere would be relatively weak compared to the others (as otherwise it would be better known). Has anyone else had thoughts along these lines? ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:08:50 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] FRP in Italy (was: RE: I'm sorry...) >Regarding the Italian DM: Isn't role-playing about to be banned in = Italy? There >have been long threads regarding this on = rec.games.frp.dnd... Yes, we have some trouble here.... A boy killed himself and his mother = told that he suicided because his FRP-club friends told it. The worst is = that some newspapers believed his mother (but currently it seems that = everbody has forgotten this accident...)!=20 Anyway, this is not the focus of this discussion list: if anyone wants = to talk with me about it, please e-mail me privately! (there is also a = longer explaination at www.sincretech.it/3M ) Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it - - sorry for my English grammar, my teacher isn't so good! :-) ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jul 18 10:53:51 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 18 Jul 96 06:53 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA19797 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:54:44 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA19777 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:40:30 -0500 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA08257 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:37:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA23268 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 05:38:53 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 05:38:53 -0400 Message-ID: <960718053851_436765752@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Spheres, Carlotina Erewan Content-Length: 574 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com If you are willing to let Kol indulge in a little goblinoid brutality, there is a more direct way that he can secure himself an heir once he discovers that he is a Shadow Elf: He could kidnap an Erewan Elf and marry her by force. Synn, in particular, would certainly encourage such a plan. Also, I don't think that Kol has several centuries to resolve the problem of an heir. From what I have seen, these "deformed" Shadow Elves mature at the rate of Humans, not of Elves. I would suspect that he has the life span of a Half-Elf at best, as would any of his offspring. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jul 18 11:06:47 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 18 Jul 96 07:06 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA19807 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:55:02 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA19776 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:40:29 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA08256 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:37:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA19931 for mystara-l@io.com; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 05:38:21 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 05:38:21 -0400 Message-ID: <960718053819_436765750@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements Content-Length: 874 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-17 21:26:38 EDT, Robert Kaelin writes: << Since AD&D doesn't > revlove as much around the elemental planes, and don't only have 4 avaiable > human classes you loose 2 out of the 3 reasons for having them in the first > place. >> Actually, there are only four major class groups in AD&D -- Warrior, Wizard, Priest, and Rogue. All AD&D classes except for the Psionicist fall into one of these groups. And you will notice that Psionicists are found on the Savage Coast but nowhere else on Mystara. But it seems to me that an AD&D Mystara campaign could use a sixth Sphere associated with the Positive Material plane (as Entropy is associated with the Negative Material plane). Obviously this sphere would be relatively weak compared to the others (as otherwise it would be better known). Has anyone else had thoughts along these lines? ------------------------------ From: mystara-mail@fishys.jammys.net (postmaster) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 00:27:17 EST Subject: [Mystara] timeline draft for AC 1014 WARNING: THIS POST IS LONG!!!!! Well, I've been working on this little project for a while, and decided to post it up on the mailing-list and see what others think. I figured if everyone here works together, we could probably make our own version of the Poor Wizard's Almanac (PWA) or Joshuan's Almanac (JA) for the year AC 1014. What I therefore have here is a draft of what could possibly the outcome of events in AC 1014. I would very much appreciate feedback, comments, suggestions, and so-on to touch up on this year-long timeline. I some parts, I have even asked questions when I myself wasn't certain what the outcome would be. I figure it we work on it, we could have it ready for December, which is when the JA2 would have been out if TSR had continued the Mystara line. Anyone who wants to send in suggestions, feel free to mail me directly at: mroy@cyberus.ca Finally, there are a few points I left out because I didn't have time/ressources to work on them. If anyone else wants to develop those plotlines please let me know... the plots are: 1) the return of the Karameikans from the Hollow World and the ramifications it will have on the various governments 2) the growth of the faith of Gareth. I believe at this point, it will start to be stong in Sind and Darokin, and will likely cause many From ???@??? Fri Jul 19 16:44:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA29895; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:12:09 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA20073 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 06:40:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 06:40:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199607181140.GAA20073@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #166 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 616916c3182f0c382e9fb97f0725b266 problems in the religious nation of Sind... could there be some sort of civil war or at the very least a restructuring of the religions? 3) the Pioneer, which left Mirros on Klarmont 3, AC 1013 (JA) intends to sail around the world, heading westward. Anyone care to take care of their adventures? Well, here goes the first half of what I have so far... NUWMONT, AC 1014 Event: Aengmor warns Rafielton (the nation of Aengmor) not to ally themselves with the former elves of Alfheim as they will only try to get their homeland back and cause disention among the shadow elves. Meaning: A growing cult of Atzanteotl is gaining more power in the city of Aengmor, and it wishes to spread it's influence to the other shadow elves. They fear that if they learn of the inherent goodness of the surface elves, it will be harder to convince them to worship Atzanteotl. The cult of Atzanteotl was introduced by the various artifacts/religious icons left behind by the humanoids, as well as the old shadow elf wanderers living in the city who also took to the rules of Atzanteotl. The wanderers would rather see Atzanteotl in charge than Rafiel, as Rafiel's shamans will only force them to leave once more when discovered, and they have come to regard Aengmor/Oenkmar as their home. VATERMONT, AC 1014 Event: Despite warnings from Aengmor, after several small meetings between elves representing King Doriath and Princess Tanadaleyo, the shadow elves and elves of Alfheim agree to work together to save the Canolbarth forest, and perhaps learn to live together in one elven nation. Several surface elven mages and Tree Keepers move back to the forest, joining the Norwold (Foresthome) elves and shadow elves in working out magic to save the trees. Among them is Jorodrin Feadiel, the former Tree Keeper of Clan Feadiel (from GAZ 5: The Elves of Alfheim). Meaning: Princess Tanadaleyo truely desires to save the forests of her nation, as she wants a beautiful surface nation for her and her people. She finds it unlikely that the shadow elves and surface elves will ever manage to live together, so does not see her offer of letting the elves move back in as something too dangerous for her people. The elves of Alfheim do not see much hope in peaceful coesxitence either, but they also truely care about their forest. They would rather see their forest still alive and in shadow elf hands than dead and belonging to them. THAUMONT, AC 1014 Event: The elves of Alfheim are mystified as their magic spells fail to bring back water to the Canolbarth Forest. Some of the spells even missfire and cause minor injuries. Tension begins to mount between the shadow elves and surface elves, as each suspects the other of sabotage. After a couple of weeks of research, the elves discover that some strange magic is starting to overwhelm the forest and is preventing the elve's magic from working. The exact nature of this magic remains a complete mystery. Meaning: Although each sub-race of elves blaims the other, in fact neither are directly responsible for preventing the magic from working. The former nation of Alfheim has always been a strong magical place. Most of the magical energies of the nation focused into areas that became known as Magic Points (see GAZ 5; The Elves of Alfheim) When the shadow elves unleashed their great magic against the forests of Alfheim, that magic eventually disipated and merged into the existing magic points, currupting them as it once corrupted the now dying forest. At this point, the magic points are causing more nightmares, madness and insanity then ever before, and they are releasing never before seen monsters onto the world of Mystara. As a side effect, they are beginning to influence and cause the strongest/largest magical effects (such as nation-wide weather magic) to go wild or not work at all. THAUMONT 1014 AC Event: A patrol of Heldannic Knights bringing gold (taxes and treasures from captured lands) back to Freiburg is ambushed by a large group of armed peasants. The peasants manage to grab the wagon with the gold and get away. The rebels, knowing the surrounding forests better than the Knights, manage to split up and lose their pursuers. The use of magic prevents the knights from using their own clerical magic to track down the traitors. The Heldannic Knights believe that Geoffrey of Grunturm is behind the daring raid. The loss of money causes a serious blow to the war funds of the nation. Meaning: The Heldannic Knights were never truly loved by the commoners of the Heldann Freeholds, but were tolerated because life manage to go on more-or-less as usual. However, last year, Wulf von Klagendorf declared an Inquisition against the non-believers in Vanya (JA, Nuwmont 1, AC 1013). Too many sons and daughters have been executed in that Inquisition, and many of them only to gain land/property for the Lord leading the Inquisition more than for any religious herecy. Many Heldanners have had enough, and are ready to start a rebellion against their oppressors. This raid is just the first of many skirmishes and was as much intended to show insperation to the commoners as to deal a severe blow to the Knights's coffers. Geoffrey of Grunturm is behind this particular group of rebels. His own lands in Norwold having been overrun and conquered (and his people enslaved by the priesthood of Vanya) by the Heldannic Knights, Geoffrey has decided that he has had enough with the clerics of Vanya. He has returned to his homeland, having vowed not to give up until the Knights have been defeated so that they can no longer harm and persecute anyone else. He has managed to inspire several peasants who have also decided that enough is enought. THAUMONT 1014 AC Event: A heavily armed, trained, and magical group of mercenairies break into Chateau Morlay and attack Prince Malachie. The castle defenders are unable to stop the intruders, and several guards are killed. When Malachie himself is cornered by the assailants, another mage arrives and joins to the defense of the Prince. This unknown mage uses several powerful spells and manages to chase of the attackers. Once the danger is gone, the man disappears as mysteriously as he arrived. None of the attackers are captured. Rumors spread from the incident claim that Etienne d'Ambreville returned to help Prince Malachie just as he did two summers ago to help his successor against Henri d'Ambreville. Some begin to claim that his ghost is watching over his former allies during his life. Meaning: Synn discovered that Malachie gave Jaggar one of her scales and has decided that she has had enough with the interfering Prince. She used her vast treasure horde to get the best mercenairies she could find. Through several contacts so no trail could be lead back to her, she hires them to eliminate her opponent without further delay. Unfortunately they failed. The mysterious mage that saved Malachie was indeed Etienne d'Ambreville. Rumors of his return have been going around since the summer of AC 1012, but the former Prince has decided he would rather stay in hiding until he can recouperate and regain all the power he once had (either attain Immortality again or avoid being detected by the other Immortals until he is ready for them if he is Immortal once more, depending on the outcome of Mark of Amber). When he does return, Etienne will need all the allies he can get to help him reestablish his political power, and therefore could not afford for Prince Malachie to be defeated. He was forced to come out of hiding to help his ally. The other Princes of Glantri, upon hearing the rumor, will begin to once more search and try and discover Etienne d'Ambreville as they did when rumors left Chateau Sylaire about his return. As during their previous search, all means mundane and magical will reveal nothing of his presence. FLAURMONT AC 1014 Event: Pressured by his various Jarls, King Ragnar once again leads his men into the Hardanger Mountains to chase out the humanoids that have been harrassing his people for the past couple of years. This time, as well as his normal army, several bands of mercenairies and adventurers march into the mountains as well, hoping to get their share of the 1,000,000 gp offered in bounties in the Humanoid Defense Fund established by the Nordhartar Defense League (JA, Sviftmont 28, AC 1013). Finally, Vestland has also begin to coordinate attack plans with Soderfjord as they too are being harassed by orcs (instead of Kobolds) and it would be best for both nations to be rid of all humanoids. This time, they march straight for the Falun Caverns which where discovered two years ago by his scouts (PWA3, Eirmont 26, AC 1012) but he had never been able to attack because of the constant raid and harassment between the kobolds and humans armies last year. Meaning: This is basically a straight-foward human vs. humanoid military campaign by the men of the Soderfjord Jarldoms. Ragnar, having lost many men and battles in the mountains the past couple of years, had hoped to end the fighting before losing more face to his people, and hence helped establish the Humanoid Defense Funds. But it was too late; he had already lost the respect of several Jarls when he withdrew and declared the war over. Determined to prove once again that he is a great warrior, he leads for the third year in a row another army up into the mountains to find and defeat the kobold horde. YARTHMONT, AC 1014 Event: During a talk between the shadow elves and elves of Alfheim over the magic influencing the forest, a shadow elf assassin attempts to kill Tree Keeper Jorodrin Feadiel. The forest elves retaliate and about a dozen are wounded and/or killed on both sides before the elves of Alfheim manage to retreat and lose their pursuers. After several days of fleeing and occasional skirmishes with the shadow elves, the elves manage to leave the Canolbarth forest and return to safety in Darokin. Meaning: The shadow elves had nothing to do with the assassination attempt. It was actually an elf of Alfheim using his magic to impersonate a shadow elf who fired the arrow at the Tree Keeper. The elf, a member of the Alfheim Avengers, purposely missed as he did not want to kill one of his own. The whole event was to make it look like the shadow elves cannot be trusted and to polarize the opinion of the surface elves against the Shadow Elves. It seems the attempt worked. YARTHMONT, AC 1014 Event: Lenard Doverson, an adventuring priest of Vanya from Thyatis is arrested in Freiburg for heresy against the Heldannic Knights and Vanya. At his trial in the Star Chamber, he denounces everything the Knights stand for and says that they have lost the true meaning of Vanya, which is to conquer, not to persecute and enslave. The man is executed for such blasphemy, as "only the Heldannic Knights know the true will of Vanya." Afterwards, throughout the Territories, the Knights spells and magic begin to fail. Many Knights are stripped of their most powerfull spells, while some even lose all their spell-casting abilities. Meaning: Vanya has always been the patroness of War and Conquest, and she has upheld the Heldannic Knights as her favored as they were always ready to seek glory in battle and war. Yet last year, when the Knight turned inwards rather than to continue conquering, and started their persecution of others, Vanya was dismayed. She gave them leeway as it is the right of the conquerers to dictate how the conquered will behave, to gain time to rest and gather troops/intelligence, as well as to bring new followers to her flock of worshipers. But then many of the Knight Lords began using the Inquisition as means of disposing of their rivals and gaining more lands/money/power rather than for her glory. She has been disapointed ever since, and the execution of one of her own faithful priest trying to return them to the path of conquest was the last straw. The arrogance at the trial of declaring that only the Heldannic Knights know her desires have cost most of them her blessings, as well as the magical support they once had. YARTHMONT, AC 1014 Event: The Cult of Atzanteotl in the city of Aengmor has managed to gain a large amount of political power in short time. The shadow elf priests of Atzanteotl, working with the wanderers in the city that they have managed to locate, begin working on a spell to raise Oenkmar back to the surface of the world. Meaning: Atzanteotl has always been interested in the activities of the shadow elves, and now that they are back in his city, he has become particularly active in trying to convert them to his way. Unfortunately for Rafiel, he seems to be succeeding very well as many have become disillusioned with the Way of Rafiel, finding that it is outdated and too restrictive after having had their taste of life on the outer world. The cult in the city point out that the ancient elven relics show that they once worshiped Atzanteotl in the city and must have abandonned him when the city sank. They claim the city of Aengmor was the golden age of the shadow elf culture and that perhaps they should return to Atzanteotl's worship to restart a new golden age. And such claims seem to be finding more and more acceptance amongst the elves in the sacred city. The wanderers have been convinced to join in raising the city and supporting Atzanteolt since it will bring them out of reach of the shamans of Rafiel and they will no longer have to be wanderers; they can continue to live in Aengmor for the rest of their lives. And since most of the wanderers of Aengmor were use to the rules of the humanoid shamans of Atzanteotl, they don't really see anything wrong with the shadow elves following the same philosophy. It's no more cruel then Rafiel's forcing of elders or disfigured new-borns out of your own communities! The shadow elf behind everything is Xatapechtli, the Spymaster and Feathered Serpent, his mind having been slowing corupted to the Azcan way of life (and hence Atzanteotl) by the magical cloak he wears. He has been pulling the strings behind the scenes to bring back the glory of the way he now sees as the true way of life of shadow elves (See GAZ 13: The Shadow Elves for Xatapechtli's stats). Question: I have been debating on whether or not Kanafasti would join the elder wanderers in raising the city to the surface or not. His dislike of the shamans and Rafiel as well as Xatapechtli's influence on him might cause him to help, but he is also loyal to the Royals and doesn't want them to lose power either. Any opinions on the mater? KLARMONT, AC 1014 Event: There is celebration in Thyatis City as Emperor Eusebius I's daughter is born. Eusebius names her Valentia after the famous Empress of Thyatis that ruled the Empire of Thyatis in the year AC 20 and held it together after Zendrolion's death. (See Dawn of the Emperors boxed set for Thyatis' history) Meaning: There is no hidden meaning in this event. Of special note, Demetrion Karagenteropolus, the Magist to the Emperor of Thyatis, has noticed that Valentia seems very magicaly inclined and could one day become a powerful wizardess if trained correctly. Kallatari Hopstride Michael Roy "I am not a thief!" mroy@fishys.jammys.net mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #166 ***************************** mystara-digest Thursday, 18 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 167 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Butcher Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 19:52:01 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages > > According to the Red Steel bosed set, Bellayne is very much an > oriental culture. But what about the Jennites or Ethengar? Both are oriental > settings, although more in the style of The Horde than anything else. > Ulimwengu is more of an ancient australian/outback than an african setting. Speaking as one who has lived in the Australian outback, Ulimwengu is not like that at all. Perhaps you are thinking of the section in the Savage Coast? [Name currently escapes me I admit. The one with the chameleon men. Ahhh, thats it: Wallara]. > However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If > there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, > it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create > our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. > Not a bad idea tho. Perhaps the various countries described are decended from one original oriental culture? Such a culture could now be in HW. Glenn - -- ******************************************************************************** Sir Lighthaft, Lord of Paladins Mortal Avatar: knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Home page: http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight ******************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: mystara-mail@fishys.jammys.net (postmaster) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 00:46:07 EST Subject: [Mystara] timeline draft for AC 1014 The draft for the AC 1014 timeline, Part II. FELMONT, AC 1014 Event: In Mirros, Davinos (a Traladaran man of Kelven) gains an audience with King Stefan and proposes that there be lesser taxes for a few Traladaran merchant families who were criminaly hurt during the Thyatian's takeover of Traladara 40 years ago. Davinos is later slain in the streets of Mirros by Karameikans of Thyatian descent and tensions mount between the Thyatians and Traladaran of Mirros. A civil war almost breaks out as the Traladarans begin to believe that the Thyatians are once again trying to enslave them. The violence will ebb when Lord Yuschiev, a Traladaran landed-lord, and his men discover and prove that Davinos' murder was orchastrated by Traladarans of the Veiled Society hoping to stir up anti-Thyatian feelings, and not by Thyatian Karameikans. Even with the end of violence, the tension that has risen between the Karameikans of Thyatian and Traladaran descent unfortunately remains. King Stefan is very gratefull to Yuschiev and his men for helping stop a possible civil war before it started. Meaning: Davinos' Complaint is an adventure detailed in GAZ 1: The Grand Duchy of Karameikos, p.17. A minor change for those who would play it out with their PCs is that Lord Yuschiev and his men also happen to be on the scene when Davinos is murdered. Instead of Emilio the Great then hiring the PCs to find out who is behind it, Yuschiev would himself ask them to help him find out the ring leader as he does not want to see a civil war start between his people and the Thyatians. Even though he dislikes Thyatians, he knows such a war would only kill his people and make them worse off then before. So Yuschiev, his men-at-arms, and perhaps the PCs he also hires (since they knew the murder was going to take place and must have some useful information) track down and pin it on the Veiled Society of Mirros. Another reason Yuschiev is involved is to introduce the character of the novel "Dark Knight of Karameikos" into the setting of a Karameikan campaign. This event helps the Traladaran Lord gain the attention of the King who will reward him with the title of Baron next year (AC 1015). Perhaps one of his men in the adventure is Grygory (the main hero of the novel), who will be knighted once Yuschiev becomes a Baron. The novel "Dark Knight of Karameikos" takes place in the year AC 1018 as it mentions its the 12th year on the throne for the King of Karameikos. The tension created by this adventure also helps explain the tension between the two Karameikan cultures that is very appearant in that novel. Basically, this just helps make the Mystara novel "official." Also, more than likely any PCs involved in this adventure will receive the title of Court Lord from King Stefan as a reward. FELMONT, AC 1014 Event: Throughout the Heldann Territories, many villages of Heldanners revolt against their cruel masters, the Heldannic Knights. None of the minor revolts or rebellions last very long, and many of the peasants are executed for treason afterwards. Meaning: The people of the Heldann Freeholds see that without their spells to back them up, now is the best chance to overthrow the Knights. Unfortunately, the commoners are badly organized, trained, and equiped, while the knights still have their discipline, weapons, and military training. Result: The Knights squash the majority of the rebellions, and only a few cause any real trouble to them. Still, this is only the beginning as most peasants are still too afraid to try and strike at their masters. With time, more will join in the rebellion, and then the Knights will have a large problem to deal with. FYRMONT, AC 1014 Event: Earthquakes shake northern Darokin and southern Glantri, as well as western Ethengar. Soon enough, adventurers and merchants coming out of the Broken Lands report the source of the tremblings: A city has risen out of the depths of the Broken Lands. A few days later, Princess Tanadaleyo of Rafielton announces that the Shadow elves have risen their sacred city of Aengmor to the surface of the Broken Lands from where it sank to several centuries ago. Meaning: The wanderers and worshipers of Atzanteotl have accomplised their goal: raise Aengmor to the surface. The effect of the sunlight of the surface is to destroy the soul crystals of the shamans of Rafiel, therefore weakening their control over the city of Aengmor. Many nations of the world begin to worry about this constant move and take over by the shadow elves. The Western Defense League agrees that their main concern now is more the shadow elves than the Empire of Thyatis, as the shadow elves have both taken over the Broken Lands and used evidently powerful magic to raise a city from the depths of Mystara to the surface, a city which could easily be used as a base to invade anywhere else around. Although no one declares war on the shadow elves or accuses them of hostilities, everyone decides to wait and see what these elves will do with their new surface city, all the while preparing their defenses. The decision isn't made easily as two forces lobby for action against the shadow elves, notably the former elves of Alfheim (thanks to the Alfheim Avengers) and the dwarves of Rockhome, yelling out to everyone that they are about to invade all of Mystara as they predicted before. The dwarves are surprised that their only allies in this seem to be elves. Will Kagyar's wonders never cease?!?! The final ramification is to the humanoids of the Broken Lands. The shadow elven military immediately gets to work at purging them from the area. Many flee to the Great Crater and join Kol's forces, while some stay behind to join a couple of brave humanoids leaders who plan on driving the shadow elves out of their lands. Unfortunately for those planning on eliminating the shadow elves, they are badly trained, equiped, and lead, and suffer almost total destruction clashing with the shadow elves. FYRMONT, AC 1014 Event: Hulagu Khan of the Uighurs leads his clan out of the Ethengar steppes and into the Heldann Territories to start the invasion ordered by the Great Khan. After a brief skrimish with patrols of the Heldannic Knights, Hulagu returns to Ethengar and the Golden Khan sends a message to Wulf von Klagendorf stating his apologies over a mix-up he will correct immediately. Meaning: Oktai Khan and his Glantrian agents sent a false message to Hulagu Khan, who has well known desires to invade the Heldann Territories. The message claimed that the Great Khan decided to invade Heldann because the sacred white stallion has been roaming in those lands and that was a divine sign to conquer them. Not caring about anything except attacking the Heldanners, Hulagu did not even bother to verify the autencity of the message and started the invasion. Before he could get to far, however, real envoys of the Golden Khan manage to stop him and convince him to return to Ethengar. The fake messengers are captured and they are discovered to be Taijit warriors. Moglai Khan, now having had the last straw of Oktai's plots, has decided he will eliminate this rival once and for all. He sets in motion a plan to reveal Oktai Khan's secret alliance with the Glantrians so he can gain the support of his people to destroy the rival Khan. Those with GAZ 12: The Golden Khan of Ethengar, can find the information on the various Khans and tribes, as well as the above plot in the sub-plot Trouble in the North (p. 61), of the adventure In The Service of the Golden Khan. It could now be a good time to play out that adventure with the PCs. FYRMONT, AC 1014 Event: From the 15th to the 28th of Fyrmont, the World Games take place in the city of Ylaruam. As before, athletes from various nations (and independently) compete against each other to see who is the best at what they do. The games go rather well except for two things: First, during the opening ceremonies, a fight breaks out in the crowds between the Ylari and foreign visitors over their blasphemies and disrespect toward the Way of Al-Kalim. The other difference is the lack of aquatic competitions this year as the Ylari officials refuse to allow the use of their precious oasis to swim in: water is too important in the desert for such foolishness. Also, many athletes have trouble competing in the intense heat of Ylaruam, so many clerics are present to help those that collapse before any permanent harm (or even death) can come to anyone. Create water spells come in very handy during these two weeks. Meaning: There is no hiden meaning here. Both the Empire of Thyatis and Ierendi makes claims to have the World Games in their nations next year. The Western Defense League, who created and sponsored the games, however, prefer to have the games in each of their nations before going to any other nation. Shiretown, the capital of the Five Shires, is therefore given the honors of hosting the games next year. Question: Did they at any point announce where the games were to take place in the year AC 1014 in JA? I remember the PWA3 telling us the games would be in Mirros during AC 1013, but I can't remember if any place was given for the next year. I assumed there wasn't, so I decided on Ylaruam. AMBYRMONT, AC 1014 Event: Moglai manages to catch Oktai Khan's messengers to his Glantrian allies (Prince Jherek, at least who he thinks is his allie; the Prince simply uses him as a pawn). With that, Moglai Khan moves the Keshak (Ethengarian equivalent of Royal Army) and the Murkit warriors after the traitorous Khan. Oktai's tribe, the Taijit, defend their Khan at first, but when they learn that he was a traitor, they desert him. Oktai Khan is eventually captured, and beheaded by the Golden Khan. Afterwards, Moglai Khan declares that the Glantrians have caused much trouble between them and the now submissive Heldannic Knights (or so he keeps telling his warriors), hoping to get them to waste time fighting between them. They nearly succeeded because of the traitor, Oktai Khan. But now the Ethengar warriors are aware of the treachery, and they shall have their revenge. Moglai Khan promises that Glantri's time is nearing it's end as it shall be the first to fall to the glorious Ethengar Empire that shall be formed. Meaning: This event serves two grand purposes for the Golden Khan. First, it eliminates one of his rivals among the Khans (Oktai). Second, by declaring that the Ethengar hordes will ride again to war, against their hated enemy Glantri at that, Moglai is taking care of the moral problems brought up by the truce made with the Heldannic Knights. Now, instead of fighting each other or complaining about Moglai's rule, they are preparing themselves for another war. Moglai begins the planning of the battle he expects to start next year. The Glantrian spies in Ethengar manage to learn of the plan and warn the Council of Princes about the upcomming invasion. The above can be played out as the adventure "The Fall of Oktai Khan" as given in GAZ 12: The Golden Khan of Ethengar. AMBYRMONT, AC 1014 Event: A few survivors of a massacred colony on the Great Escarpment on the Isle of Dawn make it back to West Portage. They claim their village was attacked and destroyed by huge spiders. Adventurers/military patrol are sent in to see what happened. Meaning: The colony was attacked and wiped out by the residents of the plateau: arena. The arena use to worship Arachne Prime, and had an evil culture based on the beliefs of this Immortal of Entropy. However, Arachne Prime was defeated by adventurers a couple of decades ago and the arena have since been on their own. Despite losing several of their number to a war with phanaton and other forest creatures, the culture of evil arena survived, and they have decided that they have taken enough trespassing on their territory of the Great Escarpment. (The arena, phanaton, and Arachne Prime are all detailed in the D&D adventure module M5 Talons of Night, and probably took place during the years AC 990-1000). Regardless, there is a culture of evil arena on the Great Escarpment, and they are now attacking the "invading" Thyatian colonists. AMBYRMONT, AC 1014 Event: The armies of Thar and Psa'gh are crushed by the human forces of the Northern Lords of Soderfjord and Vestland after a huge battle in a deep valley within the Hardanger Mountains. The fates of Thar and Psa'gh remain unknown. Meaning: The humanoid forces of the Northern Reaches have just been dealt a cripling blow. After this, they should no longer be much of a threat to the norsemen. Ragnar returns victorious to his people, having regained most, but not all, of his prestige of being a great warrior and King. Question: Anyone out there want to make a more detailed description of the war between King Ragnar and the humanoids? Also, if Thar and/or Psa'gh survive, where do you think they would go now? SVIFTMONT, AC 1014 Event: Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels ends his affair with Dolores Hillsbury and the two seem forever opposed in Council meetings. Meaning: Last year, Prince Malachie brought Jaggar some scales of a dragon and wanted to learn which type of dragon they were. Jaggar has been intruigue because despite being the master Dracologist, he has never seen that type of scale/dragon before. After a few more talks with Malachie and sending his spies out to discover where the Prince of Morlay-Malinbois found these scales, Jaggar has eventually discovered that Dolores has something to do with them. (Malachie did not tell him directly as he finds it would be more believable if Jaggar finds out for himself) After examining everything he has done since taking up with Dolores, including supporting the Kol and his kobolds over the elves of Erewan, Jaggar becomes dismayed at the fool he has been. He has vowed to destroy Dolores for the choas she has caused in Glantri, and for the evil he has unknowingly done in her name. But he knows better than to try and confront her directly. As all Princes/mages do in Glantri, he begins to use his influence and political power to destroy her on the political level since a direct confrontation between Princes is not allowed without sufficient cause (personal hatred does not count, nor does not being human, in Glantri). Also, he has more pressing matters of planning the defense of his nation against Ethengar's invassion, which could come at any time. This is a battle From ???@??? Fri Jul 19 16:44:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA07972; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:19:29 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA23102 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 15:51:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 15:51:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199607182051.PAA23102@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #167 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 842f729495a23a2d62cb744b35f3e7bf he has been waiting for a long time and wants to make sure everything is perfect. SVIFTMONT, AC 1014 Event: Princess Tanadaleyo of Rafielton again invites the former elves of Alfheim over to discuss peace and help save the forest. She states that the attempted assassination was not at all sanctioned by her, and that they are still looking for the individual shadow elf who fired the first arrow so he can receive proper punishment. She claims that elf must have been one of the discontent of her nation who are paroinoid of the surface elves, just as the Alfheim Avengers who have been constantly raiding them the past year or so are paranoid of shadow elves. Tanadaleyo wishes to prove that only a minority, on BOTH sides, wishes for war, while most want to live together in peace. Unfortunately, after the last incident, the former elves of Alfheim are rather insecure about returning to the land of their enemies. A few of the more adventurous ones do go back, but they are always on the edge, expecting a trap, and discussions go very slowly. Meaning: Princess Tanadaleyo's statement is more or less true. Although she has no love for the former elves of Alfheim and couldn't care less what they do, she does need them. First, they have the magic necessary to save the Canoldbarth forest, which she and her people have come to see as theirs, especially since they are the ones who caused its present state of near-destruction. Even more important now, she needs them for the influence they can have on the Shadow elves of Rafielton. She has noticed the steady entrance of worshipers of Atzanteotl into her nation from the city of Aengmor and believe it to be rather dangerous. Her own spies report that the Atzanteotl elves are preparing a rebellion against the shamans of Rafiel. Although Tanadaleyo herself dislikes the shamans and wants to get rid of them, she would rather keep the power for herself rather than simply replacing the control of the shamans of Rafiel with the control of the shamans of Atzanteotl. That is why she would like her people to see the way of the elves of Alfheim as there was no religious control in their nation. Admitedly, the priests/Tree Keepers of Ilsundal were respected, but they did not have the political power shamans do in the shadow elf lands (more accurately, they did have the power, just rarely used it beyond advising the Clan Leaders, but the shadow elves don't know that). She would therefore rather see her elves become more like the surface elves than those of the city of Aengmor. EIRMONT, AC 1014 Event: The commoners of the Heldann Freeholds start a massive riot/rebellion in the city of Hockstein. Unlike other revolts, this one is well lead, planned, and funded (by the gold stolen several months ago). Geoffrey of Grunturm has been in the city for a while, making the plans and providing magical support to the revolt. After a few days of fighting with the garrisons of Knights present in Hockstein, the peasants manage to take over the city while the Knights barracade themselves in the central keep. By this stage, most of the commoners of the city has joined sides with the rebellion seeing that their is actually the chance that they might win. Geoffrey immediately sets men to watch the city walls, now heavily fortified thanks to the rulership of the Knights for the past several decades. He prepares plans for surviving the siege that is sure to follow by the reinforcements sent by Freiburg. As predicted, forces from Freiburg and Grauenberg arrive to help the Knights in Hockstein, but are kept outside by the peasants who are driven to ridding their lands of the Knights. A long siege starts. Meaning: There is no hiden meaning here. The people of the Heldannic Territories are once again trying to free their land of the rulership of the Heldannic Knights. This time, the revolt has been well planned, and the Knights are lacking in their magical (clerical) support they normally have, giving the rebels the best chance they have had in decades. KALDMONT, AC 1014 Event: The leaders of the city of Aengmor declare themselves independent from the City of Stars and the Way of Rafiel. A civil war breaks out in the city as the factions fight for control. Soon after, a the civil war spreads into the neighboring Rafielton and nation of Aengmor, as the cult of Atzanteotl strive to dominate the shadow elves on the surface world. The City of Stars sends loyal troops to help squash the rebellion. Meaning: This is a battle for control of the shadow elven nations on the surface. The other nations of the world will pay very close attention to see who takes over this as of yet still unknown force represented by the shadow elves. Question: Who would be on which side of the rebellion? Mainly, Kanafasti, as I am not sure which side he would take, although I am leaning on the side of Rafielton. If so, he would now be considered a wanderer and forced to leave, something he does not wish to do. Also, who would be leading the shadow elves of Atzanteotl? I figure Xatapechtli is probably the one pulling the strings, but it seems he would prefer to stay in the shadows and have someone else as a puppet ruler. Should we make a new NPC for this? Or would it be Kanafasti, who has decided he no longer wishes to stay on the side of the Royals? If Kanafasti stays to help out his friend Tanadaleyo, then odds are, she will banish the rule of wanderers in Rafielton... perhaps that is something she does to get the much needed help of the wanderers in the civil war... any suggestions? KALDMONT, AC 1014 Event: Having started to feel the loss of power she once had in Glantri, Synn decides to try and cause trouble elsewhere in the Known World. She sends a powerful lich called Deimos to work on harrassing Darokin to the South. Using her connection with Prince Kol, Synn sends several humanoid forces with Deimos to the Broken Lands. She also sends one of her shadow elf agents to act as Deimos' general of the humanoids. Once in the Broken Lands, the lich uses his magic to create a tower to act as his headquarters while his humanoids roam the area, gathering all the humanoids still alive and hiding on the shadow elves. These humanoids, still afraid of the shadow elves, are eager to join what appears to be a powerful horde in the making. Meaning: As mentioned, with the loss of Jaggar, Synn in losing her political pull as Dolores Hillsbury in Glantri. Since she just has to cause chaos, she has decided to send some of her forces elsewhere to inflict chaos in other lands. Darokin has now become one of her targets. The shadow elves sent with Deimos will help keep the Shadow elves of the city of Aengmor away from the tower, hiding the humanoid forces there from the elves. The civil war of the shadow elves also helps. These shadow elf agents were originally spies on Glantri, but came to love the power, magic, and cuthroat politics of the human nation and decided to stay in Glantri rather than return to the City of Stars. Dolores Hillsbury learned of them and hired most of them to work for her. The spies, having been trained by Xatapechtli, were already evil since they are assassins without any compassion for their enemies. They got along rather well with Synn. Anyone who recognizes the names will know that Deimos and the above plot comes from the arcade game "D&D: Tower of Doom." The adventure of the arcade games are rather good and can easily be made into a standard rpg-module type game and even a complete campaign plot. It is my belief that the events of the arcade game take place in the year AC 1015, while those of the follow up game "D&D: Shadow over Mystara" take place in the year AC 1017. The actual details of the plot can be given in the AC 1015 version of this on-line Almanacs, if we continue to make them... Question: I forget the name of the Shadow Elf and the name of Deimos's tower in the game "Tower of Doom." I know there is an arcade game lover out there mapping down all the possible outcomes of the game, so could you please give the names to me, as well as any other NPC involved. KALDMONT, AC 1014 Event: on the 28th, the Day of Dread takes place once again. No one has yet been able to solve this problem and eliminate the curse or magical effect that seems to cause the day without magic. So, what are your opinions? Is there anything I missed that I should have delt with? Anything that seems unreasonable or improbable? Like I said, I think it would be a great project if everyone works together on this and comes to some sort of consensus as to what the future of Mystara will be like... Kallatari Hopstride Michael Roy "I am not a thief!" mroy@fishys.jammys.net mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ From: Michael S Lewis Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:41:33 CDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + > I haven't heard of Night Below. When was it published? BTW - Where > did you get this game? Do they have any other old gaming stuff? > > Geoff Night Below is a fairly recent (I'd guess it came out around February or so) boxed set campaign, designed to take characters from level 1 to 10. IMO, this will require the DM to add quite a few side adventures along the way, but I would have anyway. Don't want things to get too linear. - -- Michael Lewis mslewis@iastate.edu http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mslewis ------------------------------ From: Michael S Lewis Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:55:11 CDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + > I wouldn't set this module in Mystara without a lot of adjustments -- the > major > monsters in this module are not part of the Mystaran Underdark, and the > aboveground map does not match any known area of the Known World. > But it would be fascinating to see how somebody does these adjustments. > Well, my players are new to Mystara, so I was able to adjust the module some and the world some, in order to accomodate. As for the worries about the Mystaran Underdark, I'm not sure what creatures from the module make it non-Mystara, but unless it's one of the major groups the PCs can ally with, or the major villians, changing it to a Mystaran creature should be relatively easy. As you may be coming to suspect by the fact that I have delurked to post my third post on this module, I enjoy it quite a bit. It is very well written, with lots of room for the DM to take a free hand with it. There are also some exciting prospects for fun political dealings, at least in the first two books. My players are used to playing very linear adventures, which this is not, so I am enjoying watching them deal with the fact that they actually do control the direction the adventure takes. - -- Michael Lewis mslewis@iastate.edu http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mslewis ------------------------------ From: LWTRIP@ccmail.monsanto.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:22:45 -0500 Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + Night Below is not set specifically in the Mystara world. It is a huge multi-volume campaign set that can be used in any world simply because most of the adventure is set below ground. Also, be advised, that it is designed to take begining 1st level characters all the way from 1st to 12th level. As I said, it's HUGE! :) Wayne ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + Author: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com at INTERNET Date: 7/17/96 12:54 AM Odd; this is the first I've heard of the set, and you say it's set in Mystara? I must be slipping.. :) Could you post or email some details on the set, what it includes, and what it says about the gameworld? - -- ------------------------------ From: LWTRIP@ccmail.monsanto.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:22:37 -0500 Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off th I am not sure about further Gazeteers being released but they are going to release a product for Red Steel (Savage Baronies) later this month or early next in RTF format online only. It was originally slated to be released in book format but they changed their minds and since the material was already done, they will release it complete with graphics on the net. Wayne ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the N Author: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com at INTERNET Date: 7/17/96 3:36 AM I have not looked at it close, but I am fairly certain it is no different than the original GAZ13. The files were originally released some time ago on AOL, when the AD&D boxed sets were coming out. I am sure they released the information because no AD&D Shadow Elf product was on the board. And since the boxed sets shows them to rule Alfheim/Aengmor, they wanted to let people know all about them. They are quite unique, after all. Without this info, most people probably would just have made them drow. I don't know of any future releases of Gazetteers on the net, but I find it to be highly doubtful. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu ------------------------------ From: Johnson Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 13:58:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Elements Concerning the AD&D version of the opposition of elements, your points actually make a good deal of sense. I guess in my haste to defend the OD&D version, I failed to consider a few things. As you say, it more or less comes down to personal preference. I don't actually own any Planescape supplements, but I do own the 1st Edition AD&D Manual of the Planes. I realise a lot of changes have been made (including names), but I don't think the existence of the para-elemental and quasi-elemental planes upsets the OD&D version all that much. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Thu Jul 18 18:48:03 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 18 Jul 96 14:48 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21738 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:12:55 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA21653 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:01:22 -0500 Received: from tin (tin.monsanto.com [137.35.4.90]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28476 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:59:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from monlmst.monsanto.com by tin (5.65/Monsanto1.11) id AA02967; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:59:01 -0500 From: LWTRIP@ccmail.monsanto.com X400-Originator: LWTRIP@ccmail.monsanto.com X400-Recipients: mystara-l@io.com X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=MONSANTO/ADMD=MCI/C=US/;0031400001506901000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Message-Id: <0031400001506901000002*@MHS> To: "mystara-l(a)io.com" Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:22:45 -0500 Content-Length: 791 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Night Below is not set specifically in the Mystara world. It is a huge multi-volume campaign set that can be used in any world simply because most of the adventure is set below ground. Also, be advised, that it is designed to take begining 1st level characters all the way from 1st to 12th level. As I said, it's HUGE! :) Wayne ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + Author: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com at INTERNET Date: 7/17/96 12:54 AM Odd; this is the first I've heard of the set, and you say it's set in Mystara? I must be slipping.. :) Could you post or email some details on the set, what it includes, and what it says about the gameworld? - -- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #167 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 19 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 168 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mystara-l@IO.COM Date: Thu Jul 18 18:50:06 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Thu, 18 Jul 96 14:50 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21718 for mystara-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:11:41 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA21650 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:59:57 -0500 Received: from tin (tin.monsanto.com [137.35.4.90]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28467 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:59:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from monlmst.monsanto.com by tin (5.65/Monsanto1.11) id AA02945; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:58:52 -0500 From: LWTRIP@ccmail.monsanto.com X400-Originator: LWTRIP@ccmail.monsanto.com X400-Recipients: mystara-l@io.com X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=MONSANTO/ADMD=MCI/C=US/;0031400001506900000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Message-Id: <0031400001506900000002*@MHS> To: "mystara-l(a)io.com" Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off th Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:22:37 -0500 Content-Length: 1321 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com I am not sure about further Gazeteers being released but they are going to release a product for Red Steel (Savage Baronies) later this month or early next in RTF format online only. It was originally slated to be released in book format but they changed their minds and since the material was already done, they will release it complete with graphics on the net. Wayne ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off the N Author: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com at INTERNET Date: 7/17/96 3:36 AM I have not looked at it close, but I am fairly certain it is no different than the original GAZ13. The files were originally released some time ago on AOL, when the AD&D boxed sets were coming out. I am sure they released the information because no AD&D Shadow Elf product was on the board. And since the boxed sets shows them to rule Alfheim/Aengmor, they wanted to let people know all about them. They are quite unique, after all. Without this info, most people probably would just have made them drow. I don't know of any future releases of Gazetteers on the net, but I find it to be highly doubtful. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:45:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Elements >Concerning the AD&D version of the opposition of elements, your points >actually make a >good deal of sense. I guess in my haste to defend the OD&D version, I >failed to consider >a few things. As you say, it more or less comes down to personal preference. >I don't actually own any Planescape supplements, but I do own the 1st >Edition AD&D >Manual of the Planes. I realise a lot of changes have been made (including >names), but I >don't think the existence of the para-elemental and quasi-elemental planes >upsets the >OD&D version all that much. > >Michael Ray Johnson. >In AD&D, fire and water are opposite mainly because water puts out >fire. In OD&D water has dominance over fire (see page 64 of the Rules >Cyclopedia), but >fire does not have dominance over water. It has dominance over earth. This >is because >earth burns. Earth then has dominance over air, because it fills up space. >Air has >dominance over water because the air will create bubbles, breaking up the >water. This >forms a circle placing air and fire opposite one another, and earth and >water opposite >each other. They are said to be in "opposition" because neither one has >any real power >over the other. This creates merely hostility, resulting in a penalty to >the reaction >roll (if you use reaction rolls), but nothing else. Micheal, Actually I was just thinking the same thing about your OD&D explanation. (It's the first time I've heard it explained with actual reasoning behind it.) Maybe AD&D and OD&D players really can learn from one another. :-) (I think I'm going to have a bard explain it in almost that exact way in an advanture I'm working on that sends the party to the elemental planes...) Thanks! - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 21:20:00 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Joe Duncan writes: > > > > Well, the culture of Bellayne is actually more like Victorian England, > >so states the Princess Ark series. As far as Oreintal cultures, the only > >one that was presented was that of Ochalea, or, failing that, the village > >of Lamsa in eastern Glantri - the denizens of which are descended from the > >Ethengarians. As far as Africans go, you'd best look at the Yavdlom > >peoples, the Karimari of Ulimwengu (also on the Serpent Peninsula), the > >Pearl Islanders, or the Tanagoro. > > According to the Red Steel bosed set, Bellayne is very much an > oriental culture. Like I said, I was going by the maps and details of the Princess Ark series. I mean, with places like Pawchester and Kittings Abbey, it sounds quite British to me. But what about the Jennites or Ethengar? Both are oriental > settings, although more in the style of The Horde than anything else. According to the Hollow World setting, the Jennites are like the ancient Scythians, whom I believe (correct me if I am wrong) were horse warriors not unlike the Huns - Hordelike yes, but not truly Oriental. > Ulimwengu is more of an ancient australian/outback than an african setting. Again, I was just going by the African-sounding names - such as the capital city of Shanji Kijiji, and sample NPC names. > However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If > there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, > it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create > our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:04:59 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Bellayne Bellayne was originally settled by Rakasta from Myoshima, who originally had a culture that was modeled after that of medieval Japan. However, it appears that their culture changed greatly after the founding of Bellayne. At present (1010 AC or later), their culture seems to be a weird combina- tion of their original "Japanese" culture and the "Victorian" culture that must be their distorted interpretation of how their neighbors live. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:35:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off th In a message dated 96-07-18 14:52:18 EDT, LWTRIP@ccmail.monsanto.com writes: << I don't know of any future releases of Gazetteers on the net, but I find it to be highly doubtful. >> I recently inquired about the possibility of such uploads, and the answers that I have received so far do not rule them out. Stay tuned for further news as it develops. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:35:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + In a message dated 96-07-18 12:21:52 EDT, mslewis@iastate.edu (Michael S Lewis) writes: << As for the worries about the Mystaran Underdark, I'm not sure what creatures from the module make it non-Mystara, but unless it's one of the major groups the PCs can ally with, or the major villians, changing it to a Mystaran creature should be relatively easy. >> Those groups are precisely the ones that give this boxed set its non-Mystara flavor, along with the references to the Powers that they serve. I am not saying that rockseer elves, svirfneblin, derro, duergar, illithids, and aboleth cannot exist on Mystara, but that there is no real precedent for a major race deep beneath the surface (other than the shadow elves). ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:33:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Elements Here is an interesting idea to use: AD&D and OD&D each have their own, slightly contradictory theories about the arrangement of the elemental planes. Maybe the sages of your world have competing philosophical schools that champion each of those theories. Discovering the truth for your particular campaign world could make many adventures in itself. But I find the differences between AD&D and OD&D in their handling of the Outer Planes to be even more interesting. OD&D, for those of you who are not familiar with it, has a rather chaotic arrangement of outer planes -- it is not possible to make a complete map of them as can be done in AD&D. They are not arranged by alignment but by the whims of their creators. So you don't have to work out a hierarachy among the lawful evil Powers of Mystara -- they don't group themselves by alignment anyway. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jul 19 05:52:03 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 19 Jul 96 01:52 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA25918 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:11:49 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA25852 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:04:37 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA15113 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:04:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA25813 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:04:59 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:04:59 -0400 Message-ID: <960719010459_159523803@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Bellayne Content-Length: 440 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Bellayne was originally settled by Rakasta from Myoshima, who originally had a culture that was modeled after that of medieval Japan. However, it appears that their culture changed greatly after the founding of Bellayne. At present (1010 AC or later), their culture seems to be a weird combina- tion of their original "Japanese" culture and the "Victorian" culture that must be their distorted interpretation of how their neighbors live. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jul 19 06:27:28 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 19 Jul 96 02:27 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA26080 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:41:32 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA26015 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:34:23 -0500 Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA16487 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:34:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA01722 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:35:04 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:35:04 -0400 Message-ID: <960719013503_241000509@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Mystara] Download Gazetteer 13 (Shadow Elves) Off th Content-Length: 360 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-18 14:52:18 EDT, LWTRIP@ccmail.monsanto.com writes: << I don't know of any future releases of Gazetteers on the net, but I find it to be highly doubtful. >> I recently inquired about the possibility of such uploads, and the answers that I have received so far do not rule them out. Stay tuned for further From ???@??? Sat Jul 20 12:32:58 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA26492; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:27:28 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA29220 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 13:07:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 13:07:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199607191807.NAA29220@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #168 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 697005ca23ad6b4dbcd9fb893d072d3c news as it develops. ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jul 19 06:35:14 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 19 Jul 96 02:35 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA26095 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:42:17 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA26017 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:34:25 -0500 Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA16483 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:34:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA10208 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:35:04 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:35:04 -0400 Message-ID: <960719013502_241000463@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + Content-Length: 732 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com In a message dated 96-07-18 12:21:52 EDT, mslewis@iastate.edu (Michael S Lewis) writes: << As for the worries about the Mystaran Underdark, I'm not sure what creatures from the module make it non-Mystara, but unless it's one of the major groups the PCs can ally with, or the major villians, changing it to a Mystaran creature should be relatively easy. >> Those groups are precisely the ones that give this boxed set its non-Mystara flavor, along with the references to the Powers that they serve. I am not saying that rockseer elves, svirfneblin, derro, duergar, illithids, and aboleth cannot exist on Mystara, but that there is no real precedent for a major race deep beneath the surface (other than the shadow elves). ------------------------------ From: mystara-l@io.com Date: Fri Jul 19 06:45:01 GMT 1996 Subject: [none] Received: from io.com by zeus.argo.net; Fri, 19 Jul 96 02:44 EDT Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA26043 for mystara-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:40:03 -0500 Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA26016 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:34:24 -0500 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA16490 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:34:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA20454 for mystara-l@io.com; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:33:01 -0400 From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 01:33:01 -0400 Message-ID: <960719013300_241000538@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Elements Content-Length: 858 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-mystara-l@io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mystara-l@io.com Here is an interesting idea to use: AD&D and OD&D each have their own, slightly contradictory theories about the arrangement of the elemental planes. Maybe the sages of your world have competing philosophical schools that champion each of those theories. Discovering the truth for your particular campaign world could make many adventures in itself. But I find the differences between AD&D and OD&D in their handling of the Outer Planes to be even more interesting. OD&D, for those of you who are not familiar with it, has a rather chaotic arrangement of outer planes -- it is not possible to make a complete map of them as can be done in AD&D. They are not arranged by alignment but by the whims of their creators. So you don't have to work out a hierarachy among the lawful evil Powers of Mystara -- they don't group themselves by alignment anyway. ------------------------------ From: Gerry Kevin Wilson Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. Just curious as to how any of you run this imported church that feels WAY too Catholic for coincidence. What gods do its clerics worship? I know that the church is more of a philosophy and that no gods are listed, but those clerics must be getting spells from somewhere. Do you just allow any immortal? Only lawful immortals? Do you have an elite list of immortals for CoK clerics to choose from? Sorry, I'm trying to get my first Known World campaign put together for my OD&D group, and I keep running into little nagging things like this. I've looked over the immortal list from Wrath of the Immortals, but none of them seem particularly Thyatian to me. On a different note, I'm putting together a module (Basic Level, 3-5 players) called The Ill-Met Opal. It'll be several text files and a GIF of the map zipped together. Where exactly can I put this without being subject to TSR's code of ethics, or do they now apply the CoE to anything and everything on the internet? I've considered an HTML version, but my current idea for the format seems sufficient to me. ------------------------------ From: esp109@psu.edu (Eduardo Polanco) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:10:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. >Just curious as to how any of you run this imported church that feels WAY >too Catholic for coincidence. What gods do its clerics worship? I know >that the church is more of a philosophy and that no gods are listed, but >those clerics must be getting spells from somewhere. Do you just allow >any immortal? Only lawful immortals? Do you have an elite list of >immortals for CoK clerics to choose from? Sorry, I'm trying to get my >first Known World campaign put together for my OD&D group, and I keep >running into little nagging things like this. I've looked over the >immortal list from Wrath of the Immortals, but none of them seem >particularly Thyatian to me. > I remember Bruce Heard addressed this question in a Known World Grimoire article in Dragon magazine. He gave a list of immortals. I can't remember all of them but I seem to recall Asterius, Valerias, Vanya, and Tarastia being mentioned. There might have been others. Ed Polanco esp109@psu.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Get busy living or get busy dying." -Andy Dufrain, Shawshank Redemption "Every man dies. Not every man really lives." -William Wallace, Braveheart ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Mon, 04 Feb 1980 20:52:34 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... Ever since the recent discussion on Elven history and the Trees of Life, I've been carefully analysing the history of all the Mystaran elves, I haven't had much problem, except when it comes to the Shadow Elf/Schattenalf thing. Let me show you. This is the timeline as written in Gaz 13 ( starting after the great rain of fire ): 3000 BC - Great Rain Of Fire, survivors ( shadow elf ancestors) burrow underground. 2200 BC - Other elves settle in frozen Glantri ( where the shadow elves used to live ) 1950 BC - Shadow elves settle in Glantri again, but never contact earlier ( 2200 BC ) group of elven settlers. 1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, shadow elves on return underground. 1420 BC - Shadow elves discover Atzanteotl's temple, drive out Azcans and build Aengmor. Worship of Atzanteotl begins. 1290 BC - Atzanteotl drives shadow elves out of Aengmor. 1104 BC - Shadow elves discover the Refuge Of Stone, switch worship to Rafiel, build City Of Stars and take the name of Shadow Elves. 896 BC - Expedition of Shadow elves reach Hollow World. Few return. 792 BC - Second shadow elf expedition reaches outer world in the broken lands. Conclude that surface is uninhabitable. ( the rest isn't important for what I want to demonstrate. ) Now in the Hollow world boxed set the history of the Schattenalf goes as follows: 3000 BC - Great Rain Of Fire, survivors ( shadow elf ancestors ) burrow underground. Subtly guided by Rafiel, they discover the miles high high caverns of the refuge of stone and build City Of Stars. 1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, elves from Glantri discover City Of Stars and are welcomed. They adopt the clan name of Schattenalf, which means "Shadow Elf" in their elvish dialect. 1500 BC - Expedition of Shadow elves reach Hollow World. Few return. Atzanteotl reaches immortality. Atzanteotl begins corrupting schattenalf. The Schattenalf turn from Rafiel to Atzanteotl. Two groups of schattenalf leave the City Of Stars. 1420 BC - First group of schattenalf reach a cavern near the surface of the outer world and build Aengmor. 1400 BC - Second group of schattenalf reach Hollow World and settle there. 1290 BC - Elves of Aengmor obliterated. Now this doesn't make any sense at all. Can anyone think aof some way of reconciling the two histories? Or some kind of explanation? This really baffles me, how could TSR get thins *SO* wrong? ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 08:28 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. Hey, what's this about a "too catholic" church? I must have missed the original post/discusion of Sombody's vision of The Church of Karameikos. Could somebody e-mail me the origianl comments? Thanks, Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 05 Feb 1980 00:02:51 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Another Shadow Elf comment... One thing that I find kind of strange is why the elves of Alfheim would seek refuge in Wendar. The wendarian elves are the closest relatives of the shadow elves on Mystara. After the Great Rain Of Fire most of the elves from the four clans that settled near Blackmoor went underground, but some remained. They endured the ice age and survived to the present day, becoming the elves of Wendar, they're even of the same clans as the Shadow Elves!! Why would they help the Alfheim elves instead of their long lost brethren? Very confusing... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 05 Feb 1980 00:05:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. At 12:31 AM 7/19/96 -0700, you wrote: >Just curious as to how any of you run this imported church that feels WAY >too Catholic for coincidence. What gods do its clerics worship? I know >that the church is more of a philosophy and that no gods are listed, but >those clerics must be getting spells from somewhere. Do you just allow >any immortal? Only lawful immortals? Do you have an elite list of >immortals for CoK clerics to choose from? Sorry, I'm trying to get my >first Known World campaign put together for my OD&D group, and I keep >running into little nagging things like this. I've looked over the >immortal list from Wrath of the Immortals, but none of them seem >particularly Thyatian to me. What about Halav, Petra and Zirchev? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #168 ***************************** From ???@??? Sat Jul 20 12:33:04 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00422; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 09:53:38 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA01258 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 18:36:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 18:36:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199607192336.SAA01258@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #169 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: f7fbe0cecc1a2ff075bccf18aec03a7a mystara-digest Friday, 19 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 169 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. > > > > I remember Bruce Heard addressed this question in a Known World > Grimoire article in Dragon magazine. He gave a list of immortals. I can't > remember all of them but I seem to recall Asterius, Valerias, Vanya, and > Tarastia being mentioned. There might have been others. > If I recall correctly from GAZ 1, the Church of Thyatis was a "new" religion based on a collection of the Thyatian religions. Since Karameikos had a goody-goody atmosphere to it, I suspect the immortals favored would have been the goody-goody ones. All the Immortals listed as non-evil or non-shady in the Dawn of the Empires set for the Thyatians would have been applicable, therefore, to be included under the Karameikos pantheon. Individual clerics might have specific patrons, but the sense I got from it was that the regular Joe worshipped the collective lot, not any specifics. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 05 Feb 1980 00:03:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements >Actually, there are only four major class groups in AD&D -- Warrior, >Wizard, Priest, and Rogue. All AD&D classes except for the Psionicist >fall into one of these groups. And you will notice that Psionicists are >found on the Savage Coast but nowhere else on Mystara. > >But it seems to me that an AD&D Mystara campaign could use a sixth >Sphere associated with the Positive Material plane (as Entropy is >associated with the Negative Material plane). Obviously this sphere >would be relatively weak compared to the others (as otherwise it would >be better known). Has anyone else had thoughts along these lines? Some. What I came up with I didn't have a very good name for, but basicaly it was the sphere of "Creation" as opposed to the "destruction" sphere of entropy. It was concerned with the further creation of anything, matter, energy, life etc... My thoughts were that the sphere of creation was either in the hands of the old ones ( beyond the power of the immortals ) or that the sphere of entropy had gotten out of had and was destroying things faster than the sphere of creation could create, and the creation sphere had gone into decline ( this imbalance being carefully hidden by the Eldest One, Thanatos himself ). - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 05 Feb 1980 00:04:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages >But what about the Jennites or Ethengar? Both are oriental >> settings, although more in the style of The Horde than anything else. > According to the Hollow World setting, the Jennites are like the >ancient Scythians, whom I believe (correct me if I am wrong) were horse >warriors not unlike the Huns - Hordelike yes, but not truly Oriental. Maybe it's just my personal preferance, but I interpreted them as being more like the Mongols. >> Ulimwengu is more of an ancient australian/outback than an african setting. > > Again, I was just going by the African-sounding names - such as >the capital city of Shanji Kijiji, and sample NPC names. Actually, I was wrong about that. I was thinking about Wallara. >> However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If >> there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, >> it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create >> our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. Would you care to help with this? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Geoff Gander >Political Science IV >Carleton University It seems there are quite a few Mystara fans at Carleton, perhaps we could arange a meeting in the fall sometime? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 05 Feb 1980 00:02:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Non-Wrath Campaigns At 07:03 PM 7/17/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Shelby Michlin wrote: > >> Thanks for that note, Leroy. As I've said before, I'd prefer to play out all >> of the wonderful possibilities in the Gazetteer series before I blow it all >> to hell! In fact, I'd probably prefer to create the future myself, although >> I might draw some inspiration from published materials. That way I can >> incorporate some of my PC's actions. > > This is kind of my current attitude. I love the world as set out in >the Gazetteers, and have a multitude of ideas to explore. I deas that >could keep me occupied for years. > With the exception of the Shadow Elf takeover of Alfheim and the >sinking of Alphatia, I like much of the Immortals Wrath adventure. At >some point in the future I may run it, and have several campaigns in the >resultant world. Until then I'm happy with the world in its Gazetteer >incarnation. My solution to this has been to set my campaign a little before AC 1000. That way I can use a lot of the stuff from the Gazs and run several adventures before the WoTI. I'm also going to be mixing the WoTI, the Blood Brethren Trilogy, the Blackmoor adventures, Red Arrow Black Shield and several other "grand scale" modules to create a world sweeping campaign that takes the players all over Mystara. BTW, Mealiden's nick name is "Red Arrow" does anyone know if "Black Shield" is one of Bozdogan's ( Loki's ) nicknames? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 05 Feb 1980 00:03:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages >> According to the Red Steel bosed set, Bellayne is very much an >> oriental culture. But what about the Jennites or Ethengar? Both are oriental >> settings, although more in the style of The Horde than anything else. >> Ulimwengu is more of an ancient australian/outback than an african setting. > >Speaking as one who has lived in the Australian outback, Ulimwengu is >not like that at all. Perhaps you are thinking of the section in the >Savage Coast? [Name currently escapes me I admit. The one with the >chameleon men. Ahhh, thats it: Wallara]. My apologies, I got the two confused. Wallara is the australian setting..... >> However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If >> there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, >> it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create >> our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. >Not a bad idea tho. Perhaps the various countries described are decended >from one original oriental culture? Such a culture could now be in HW. Not necesarily. The ancient Jennite culture ( similar to the mongols ) was in the western part of the continent of Skothar, what about an Oriental setting on the eastern part of that continent? It could be the remenants of the Jennites who have settled down, the only other people from that area being the Tanagoro whop were wiped out and transplanted to the HW a long time ago. Nowhere else is this part of the Mystara setting described. There is a vast expanse of land there and it would be quite easy to base a Mystaran Oriental culture there. Any takers on developping it? I'll try to help, but my knowledge of oriental culture is limited. Perhaps what we could do is take small portions of it and let individuals develop their own oriental nation there. Starting with just basic descriptions at first, looking at other peoples work on their areas and then working out the interactions between the nations and there collective histories. The more people we get the better it will become. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 05 Feb 1980 00:09:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... At 08:52 PM 2/4/80 -0500, you wrote: > Ever since the recent discussion on Elven history and the Trees of >Life, I've been carefully analysing the history of all the Mystaran elves, I >haven't had much problem, except when it comes to the Shadow Elf/Schattenalf >thing. Let me show you. This is the timeline as written in Gaz 13 ( starting >after the great rain of fire ): > > > 3000 BC - Great Rain Of Fire, survivors ( >shadow elf ancestors) burrow >underground. > > 2200 BC - Other elves settle in frozen Glantri >( where the shadow elves used to live ) > > 1950 BC - Shadow elves settle in Glantri >again, but never contact > earlier ( 2200 BC ) group of elven >settlers. > > 1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, shadow elves on >return underground. > > 1420 BC - Shadow elves discover Atzanteotl's >temple, drive out Azcans and build > Aengmor. Worship of Atzanteotl begins. > > 1290 BC - Atzanteotl drives shadow elves out >of Aengmor. > > 1104 BC - Shadow elves discover the Refuge Of >Stone, switch worship to Rafiel, >build City Of Stars and take the name of Shadow Elves. > > 896 BC - Expedition of Shadow elves reach >Hollow World. Few return. > > 792 BC - Second shadow elf expedition reaches >outer world in the broken lands. > Conclude that surface is uninhabitable. > > ( the rest isn't important for what I want to >demonstrate. ) > > Now in the Hollow world boxed set the history of the Schattenalf >goes as follows: > > 3000 BC - Great Rain Of Fire, survivors ( >shadow elf ancestors ) burrow >underground. Subtly guided by Rafiel, they discover the miles high high >caverns of the refuge of stone and build City Of Stars. > > 1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, elves from >Glantri discover City Of Stars and are >welcomed. They adopt the clan name of Schattenalf, which means "Shadow >Elf" in their elvish dialect. > > 1500 BC - Expedition of Shadow elves reach >Hollow World. Few return. Atzanteotl >reaches immortality. Atzanteotl begins corrupting schattenalf. The >Schattenalf turn from Rafiel to Atzanteotl. Two groups of schattenalf >leave the City Of Stars. > > 1420 BC - First group of schattenalf reach a >cavern near the surface of the outer >world and build Aengmor. > > 1400 BC - Second group of schattenalf reach >Hollow World and settle there. > > 1290 BC - Elves of Aengmor obliterated. > I forgot some from the Hollow World Boxed set... here it is 1104 BC - Shadow elves discover City Of Stars and take the name Shadow Elves 1000 BC - Shadow elf expedition reaches Hollow World Few Survive. Makes it even more confusing huh? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:37:23 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Glantrian tavern I created At 13.03 17/07/96 -0700, you wrote: >A while ago I attached this file to a message, but it seems that no one got From ???@??? Sat Jul 20 12:33:04 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00422; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 09:53:38 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA01258 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 18:36:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 18:36:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199607192336.SAA01258@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #169 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: f7fbe0cecc1a2ff075bccf18aec03a7a >it, so I'm not spamming, okay. > I got it the first time you posted it! ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Gerry Kevin Wilson Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, strawberryJAMM wrote: > Hey, what's this about a "too catholic" church? I must have missed the > original post/discusion of Sombody's vision of The Church of Karameikos. > Could somebody e-mail me the origianl comments? > > Thanks, > Jenni A. M. Merrifield > -=< strawberryJAMM >=- Sorry, I should've known better than to drop that comment. The CoK just reminds me a lot of various Christian churches, as well as the Catholic church. Sins, stains on the soul, penance, but I guess it's just me. After all, they kept the CoK generic enough to avoid those issues. In fact, they kept it so generic, they forgot to give it a god(s). :) Btw, whoever posted the earlier reply, thanks, that gives me a good starting point. <~~~VERTIGO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SPAG~~~~NINTH~ISSUE~DUE~REAL~SOON~NOW~~~~~|~~~~~~~> < The Society for the Preservation of Adventure games. Filled with | ~~\ > < reviews, ratings, and advertisements...all about text adventures. | /~\ | > <___SOFTWARE______E-MAIL_FOR_INFO______whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu__|_\__/__> ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:37:19 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... At 20.52 04/02/80 -0500, you wrote: > Ever since the recent discussion on Elven history and the Trees of >Life, I've been carefully analysing the history of all the Mystaran elves, I >haven't had much problem, except when it comes to the Shadow Elf/Schattenalf >thing. Let me show you. This is the timeline as written in Gaz 13 ( starting >after the great rain of fire ): > > I've done a similar thing before posting the stuff about ToL and I've found the same problem. >3000 BC - Great Rain Of Fire, survivors (shadow elf ancestors) burrow underground. > >2200 BC - Other elves settle in frozen Glantri ( where the shadow elves used to live ) > >1950 BC - Shadow elves settle in Glantri again, but never contact earlier ( 2200 BC ) group of elven >settlers. > >1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, shadow elves on return underground. > >1420 BC - Shadow elves discover Atzanteotl's temple, drive out Azcans and build Aengmor. Worship of Atzanteotl begins. > >1290 BC - Atzanteotl drives shadow elves out of Aengmor. > >1104 BC - Shadow elves discover the Refuge Of Stone, switch worship to Rafiel, build City Of Stars and take the name of Shadow Elves. > >896 BC - Expedition of Shadow elves reach Hollow World. Few return. > >792 BC - Second shadow elf expedition reaches outer world in the broken lands. Conclude that surface is uninhabitable. > >( the rest isn't important for what I want to demonstrate. ) > > Now in the Hollow world boxed set the history of the Schattenalf >goes as follows: > >3000 BC - Great Rain Of Fire, survivors (shadow elf ancestors ) burrow underground. Subtly guided by Rafiel, they discover the miles high caverns of the refuge of stone and build City Of Stars. > >1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, elves from Glantri discover City Of Stars and are welcomed. They adopt the clan name of Schattenalf, which means "Shadow Elf" in their elvish dialect. > >1500 BC - Expedition of Shadow elves reach Hollow World. Few return. Atzanteotl reaches immortality. Atzanteotl begins corrupting schattenalf. The Schattenalf turn from Rafiel to Atzanteotl. Two groups of schattenalf leave the City Of Stars. > >1420 BC - First group of schattenalf reach a cavern near the surface of the outer world and build Aengmor. > >1400 BC - Second group of schattenalf reach Hollow World and settle there. > >1290 BC - Elves of Aengmor obliterated. > > Now this doesn't make any sense at all. Can anyone think aof some >way of reconciling the two histories? Or some kind of explanation? This >really baffles me, how could TSR get thins *SO* wrong? > There is another timeline on this matter, that given in Gaz14 3000 BC - Great Rain of Fire 1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, survivor elves migrate underground. 1650 BC - Atziann, one of the surviving elves, reaches the Azcan in the HW 1500 BC - Atziann attains immortality as Atzanteotl 1468 BC - Atruazin establish Mictlan 1420 BC - Shattenalfen (the survivors of the Glantri cataclysm) begin to follow Atzanteotl, destroy Mictlan and build Aengmorupon its ruins. 1290 BC - Aengmor is destroyed by Atzanteotl. Shattenalfen descen deeper underground. Maybe our sage Mister-Timeline Daniel Boese can give us a wise advice. IMC I ignore the timeline given in the HW boxed set and I use instead the one given in Gaz13, anyway it's really hard to believe that TSR went so wrong. BTW: someone knows which of the two products was published first ? I think Gaz13 was the first, but I'm not sure. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: remoore@nando.net Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 14:57:17 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Another Shadow Elf Comment... While the Wendar elves may be more closely related to the Shadow Elves, their society and mindframes are much closer to that of the elves of Alfheim. Destroying Canolbarth, indulging in massacres, having segments of society that worship an evil immortal... The Wendar elves are probably appalled by the Shadow Elves' behavior. However, correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC there is some animosity betwixt the Wendar elves and Alfheim elves due to some past conflicts. Anybody have info on this? Maleviro Jade ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:17:07 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... > Now this doesn't make any sense at all. Can anyone think aof some > way of reconciling the two histories? Or some kind of explanation? This > really baffles me, how could TSR get things *SO* wrong? Your neighborhood unofficial Timeline keeper to the rescue... :) Taking a look at your points, I see a few blunders by TSR: a) The text history of the Shattenalfen in the Hollow World boxed set was written before the Shadow Elves Gazetteer, and, basically, is very false. It doesn't even fully correspond with the timeline in the front of the book. b) The temple of Atzanteotl the Schattenalfen find in 1420 BC is in the Hollow World, but they build Aengmor on the outer world. I don't have an especially good explanation for this, unless Atzanteotl moved his new followers himself. Anyway, here's what I understand to be 'what really happened'. :) 3000 BC: The Great Rain of Fire. The Blackmoor elves (ancestors of the Shadow Elves, Schattenalfen, Icevale elves, Gentle Folk, and Atzanteotl) are driven underground. 2200 BC: Elves (not the Blackmoor ones) settle in Glantri. 1950 BC: The Blackmoor elves settle in surface Glantri, and never contact the other elves. 1700 BC: The Glantri Cataclysm. The Glantri elves are destroyed. The Blackmoor elves once again go underground, splitting up into individual clans. 1650 BC: Some elves reach the Hollow World, and become the Icevale elves and the Gentle folk. Atziann, sole survivor of his clan, also reaches the Hollow World. 1500 BC: Atziann becomes an Immortal, renaming himself Atzanteotl. He begins whispering to various underground-Blackmoor elves (especially the Schattenalfen), luring them away from their faiths. 1420 BC: The Schattenalfen reach the Hollow World, then go back to the outer world and build Aengmor. 1400 BC: Some (but not all) elves are driven from Aengmor, and settle in the Hollow World. These are the modern-day Schattenalfen. 1352 BC: Aengmor is finished being built. 1290 BC: Atzanteotl sinks Aengmor. Many Schattenalfen escape, going underground. 1104 BC: The ex-Aengmor Schattenalfen discover the Refuge of Stone, convert to Rafiel, and become the Shadow Elves. BTW; what do you think of the possibility of various elves who found their ways to other places on and in Mystara? Those underground tunnels go /everywhere/... :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1175 ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 14:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. > > What about Halav, Petra and Zirchev? They were Traldaran Immortals, and part of the Church of Traldara. There was also the for-comic-relief Cult of Halav. I'm no up to date on AC 1001+. Someone want to tell me what happened to these? Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Oriental culture (was: Mages) Joe Duncan pontificated: > > >> However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If > >> there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, > >> it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create > >> our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. > > a long time ago. Nowhere else is this part of the Mystara setting described. > There is a vast expanse of land there and it would be quite easy to base a > Mystaran Oriental culture there. Any takers on developping it? I'll try to > help, but my knowledge of oriental culture is limited. Perhaps what we could > do is take small portions of it and let individuals develop their own > oriental nation there. Starting with just basic descriptions at first, > looking at other peoples work on their areas and then working out the > interactions between the nations and there collective histories. The more > people we get the better it will become. Being the token oriental on this list (my apology if I'm wrong on this), I would love to help out on this. However, I personally lack the time, creativity, and writting skill to develop this by myself. So if anyone out there like to give this a try, please drop me a note. My main area of knowledge is in China. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:00:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Bellayne On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > Bellayne was originally settled by Rakasta from Myoshima, who originally > had a culture that was modeled after that of medieval Japan. However, it > appears that their culture changed greatly after the founding of Bellayne. > At present (1010 AC or later), their culture seems to be a weird combina- > tion of their original "Japanese" culture and the "Victorian" culture that > must be their distorted interpretation of how their neighbors live. Having not read the Red Steel boxed set, I can't comment on the presentation of Bellayne there. The original, pre-Red Steel, pre-AD&D Bellayne, however, was a Victorian England type culture, with no Oriental influences. Their long stay on Mystara, separated from their Myoshiman kin, led to the abandonment of their former lifestyles. They did still have some contact with Myoshima (recall the other Rakasta samurai that Myojo nearly dueled with), but they had no formal ties to that kingdom. The oriental Rakasta were solely found on Myoshima. Of course, another reason for the lack of oriental influence could be that the settlers of Bellayne were from some other portion of Myoshima- recall that there are sections of Myoshima that are other than feudal Japanese areas, though they all seem to have East Asian influences). As for Red Steel's incorporation of Oriental influences? My best guess is that, in converting it to AD&D, the designers wanted to retain the 'Oriental' flavor to their Rakasta, but also didn't want to totally redesign Bellayne, so they altered it from it's original (i.e., Bruce Heard-ian) description. In any case, DMs should feel free to choose whichever Bellayne they most like. :) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #169 ***************************** From ???@??? Mon Jul 22 09:44:31 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA15158; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:42:55 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA04842 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 13:35:19 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 13:35:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199607201835.NAA04842@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #170 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: d32889dea9cda63835ada8f09d6a48d1 mystara-digest Saturday, 20 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 170 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:53:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] + Night Below and Mystara + On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > Those groups are precisely the ones that give this boxed set its non-Mystara > flavor, along with the references to the Powers that they serve. I am not > saying > that rockseer elves, svirfneblin, derro, duergar, illithids, and aboleth > cannot > exist on Mystara, but that there is no real precedent for a major race deep > beneath the surface (other than the shadow elves). I do agree with that statement, insofar as there is no precedent for any of those particular races living beneath the surface of Mystara... However, there is much precedent for races living beneath the surface. In addition to the Shadow elves you mentioned, there are also the various humanoid races, which live underground as well as above ground (in many cases, there are more of them underground than above- see GAZ10, The Orcs of Thar; most 'noids in the Broken Lands live under it rather than above.) The kobolds of the Hardanger range in the Soderfjord Jarldoms live underground, and the gnomes who preceded them (now deceased) lived underground as well. Additionally, there are the Graakhalians- a group of Gnolls and Elves who jointly share living space beneath the Plain of Fire. Also, there are any number of monsters who, while not necessarily having been detailed, can be assumed to live underground. Specifically, the Geonids, Darkwings, Deep Glaurants, etc. While not having read Night Below, based on your description of the monster groups I would probably replace them with Shadow elves, Gnomes, Dwarves (isolationist clans, possibly mutated remnants of pre-Blackmoor outer world dwarves; horribly mutated by the radiation), some other dwarves (maybe Moulder dwarves, from Gaz 7) or the above mentioned Geonids, and for the aboleth, probably the Deep Glaurants from Gaz 8/Creature Catalog. The illithids are a tough bit though... can't really think of who might serve to fill in for those villains... ------------------------------ From: Gerry Kevin Wilson Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Simon Seah wrote: > If I recall correctly from GAZ 1, the Church of Thyatis was a "new" > religion based on a collection of the Thyatian religions. Since > Karameikos had a goody-goody atmosphere to it, I suspect the immortals > favored would have been the goody-goody ones. All the Immortals listed > as non-evil or non-shady in the Dawn of the Empires set for the Thyatians > would have been applicable, therefore, to be included under the > Karameikos pantheon. Individual clerics might have specific patrons, but > the sense I got from it was that the regular Joe worshipped the > collective lot, not any specifics. > > Simon > :) Thanks, as soon as I get my Dawn of the Empires set in the mail I'll take a gander and see who participates in the church. Guess I'll have to make rules for generalized CoK clerics and those that worship one central god(dess) as their personal patron. Shouldn't be too hard. "Unspeakable glyphs discolor the filth-blackened walls of this infernal sanctum. Scribed in the center of the room is a blood red circle inlaid with a silver pentagram." -An excerpt from "Avalon", a game under construction. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:09:12 GMT Subject: [Mystara] Oriental setting >>> According to the Red Steel bosed set, Bellayne is very much an >>> oriental culture. But what about the Jennites or Ethengar? Both are oriental >>> settings, although more in the style of The Horde than anything else. >>> However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If >>> there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, >>> it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create >>> our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. > Not necesarily. The ancient Jennite culture ( similar to the mongols >) was in the western part of the continent of Skothar, what about an >Oriental setting on the eastern part of that continent? It could be the >remenants of the Jennites who have settled down, the only other people from >that area being the Tanagoro whop were wiped out and transplanted to the HW >a long time ago. Nowhere else is this part of the Mystara setting described. >There is a vast expanse of land there and it would be quite easy to base a >Mystaran Oriental culture there. Any takers on developping it? I'll try to >help, but my knowledge of oriental culture is limited. Perhaps what we could >do is take small portions of it and let individuals develop their own >oriental nation there. Starting with just basic descriptions at first, >looking at other peoples work on their areas and then working out the >interactions between the nations and there collective histories. The more >people we get the better it will become. Bellayne Is a combination of Oriental & Victorian English culture. The moon Myoshima and Ochalea are the only genuine Oriental settings on Mystara. The idea to create an Oriental setting east of the jennite steppes is excellent. With slight modifications, a culture similar to China could easily be placed north of Tangor Bay (see map of Mystara, D&D Rules Cylopedia), with a southeast Asian culture on the peninsula to the south. I would love to help on this, but I am somewhat lacking in knowledge regarding Asian cultures. If there are others out there serious about developing a Mystaran Orient, lets try to do it! ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:05:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Glantrian tavern I created At 07:37 PM 7/19/96 +0200, you wrote: >At 13.03 17/07/96 -0700, you wrote: >>A while ago I attached this file to a message, but it seems that no one got >>it, so I'm not spamming, okay. >> >I got it the first time you posted it! > That's good then. Perhaps I should explain though. I sent a letter to Leroy and he said that sometimes there are problems with attachments, so it's better to just put them in the message. Someone almost always says something when a creation is posted, and no one did about mine after a long time, so I suspected this. I guess the main thing is that I just wanted to let everyone know that it's probably safer not to attach stuff if you can help it. I don't think this is in the FAQ, maybe it should be, it would be helpful... David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Sat, 20 Jul 96 0:00:52 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental culture (was: Mages) Shin Chyang Yu writes: > Joe Duncan pontificated: > > a long time ago. Nowhere else is this part of the Mystara setting described. > > There is a vast expanse of land there and it would be quite easy to base a > > Mystaran Oriental culture there. Any takers on developping it? I'll try to > > help, but my knowledge of oriental culture is limited. Perhaps what we could > > do is take small portions of it and let individuals develop their own > > oriental nation there. Starting with just basic descriptions at first, > > looking at other peoples work on their areas and then working out the > > interactions between the nations and there collective histories. The more > > people we get the better it will become. The first step is too decide what culture to model it on. There is likely no more a single, blanket, all-encompassing Mystaran "oriental" culture than there is a single "oriental" culture on Earth. The Orient is a geographical location, not a point of cultural delineation. My preference leans to Chinese, though Thai and Japanese cultures also offer many interesting facets that could be incorporated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:09:18 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements >But it seems to me that an AD&D Mystara campaign could use a sixth >Sphere associated with the Positive Material plane (as Entropy is >associated with the Negative Material plane). Obviously this sphere >would be relatively weak compared to the others (as otherwise it would >be better known). Has anyone else had thoughts along these lines? Well, there's always PC1: Tall Tales of the Wee Folk's take on things... way, way, long ago, there were 5 spheres.. 4 of Death, and Life. Then there was a dramatic change, the 4 Death spheres collapsing into the single sphere of Entropy, and the sphere of Life blossoming into the current 4 spheres of Time, Matter, Energy, and Thought. And one day in the future, the cycle will continue... Then again, it might all be malarky told by those mischevous Sidhe. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1175 ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 23:29:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental setting On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Patrick wrote: > > Bellayne Is a combination of Oriental & Victorian English culture. The moon > Myoshima and Ochalea are the only genuine Oriental settings on Mystara. The > idea to create an Oriental setting east of the jennite steppes is excellent. > With slight modifications, a culture similar to China could easily be placed > north of Tangor Bay (see map of Mystara, D&D Rules Cylopedia), with a > southeast Asian culture on the peninsula to the south. I would love to help > on this, but I am somewhat lacking in knowledge regarding Asian cultures. If > there are others out there serious about developing a Mystaran Orient, lets > try to do it! I was also thinking that the island of Zyxl would make an interesting Japan analogue, but it does seem a bit far east of the proposed 'Asia' to be perfect for the setting. ('Zyxl' is also a very non-Japanese name, but remember, that's just the Thyatian name of it, from that old map. The native name could be completely different.) This all seems to be a pretty interesting idea - I think that if enough good ideas get put forth, we might be able to create an interesting Oriental Mystara setting - although maybe it would also be just as good to go into more detail on Ochalea and Myoshima. (I personally prefer the pure-Victorian version of Bellayne from the Princess Ark article, but to each his own.) - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > Well, there's always PC1: Tall Tales of the Wee Folk's take on things... > way, way, long ago, there were 5 spheres.. 4 of Death, and Life. Then > there was a dramatic change, the 4 Death spheres collapsing into the > single sphere of Entropy, and the sphere of Life blossoming into the > current 4 spheres of Time, Matter, Energy, and Thought. And one day in the > future, the cycle will continue... > Then again, it might all be malarky told by those mischevous Sidhe. :) I don't own PC1, so I have to ask... do they say what the four Death spheres were? Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Cthulhu, eh? I'll try and backstab him" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Dual Messages and Updating the FAQ Mystarans, Two administrative points to cover here... 1) As some of the new members have come to notice, we occasionally get two copies sent to the list, and some people receive a reply directly from majordomo (the list server) whenever they post. I just want to mention that I am fully aware of the problem, and the people who have control of such things have been notified. I am a member of the GURPS mailing list, which is also run from io.com, and it sees to have some of the same problems. At the moment, I am afraid we will have to lump it. 2) I am going to be updating the list FAQ here soon, and am willing to entertain any opinions people may have on potential additions, subtractions, or alterations. Two things will definitely be added. First, as Mr. Melik pointed out, sending anything to the list as an attachment is troublesome, and best avoided. I thought of adding this to the FAQ a while back, but it slipped my mind. Thanks, David, for the reminder. Second, I am going to add to the FAQ a reminder that anything posted to the list may potentially be saved by me and made available through ftp, WWW, or e-mail. It already says this to an extent, but I will clarify it. I don't imagine anyone would have a problem with this practice, no on has yet, but it is nice to have it documented. Again, any sort of suggestions or feedback is welcome. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do I know what do I know? (I), never look back never look back (no). Stick it in me stick it in me (I), what do I see what do I see? (now)" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (A Higher Form of) Killing ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:36:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... I would go with the timeline in Gaz 13 and add in those details from the Hollow World boxed set that do not contradict it. The Hollow World boxed set contains some internal contradictions in regard to the Shadow Elves. If you examine the basic timeline given on pp. 10-17 of the DM's Sourcebook, you will see that it gives no details that contradict Gaz 13 -- The City of the Stars, for example, is never mentioned at all. The contradictory material is given on pp. 83-84, but there is one statement that suggests it is not to be taken at face value: "Perhaps subtly guided by the Immortal Rafiel...." Why "perhaps"? This is material for the DM, who should know the "real truth". I would suggest that the material on pp. 83-84 represents the version of Schattenalfen history believed by the inhabitants of the Lighthouse -- based on their interpretations of the few scraps of information that they could assemble from various tribes of Hollow World Elves. How does this suggestion sound? ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:05:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements In a message dated 96-07-20 01:59:37 EDT, van891@uidaho.edu (Leroy Van Camp III) writes: << I don't own PC1, so I have to ask... do they say what the four Death spheres were? >> No, but I would guess that they were the same four we are already familiar with -- Energy, Matter, Time, and Thought -- except that they were united in their opposition to "Integration" or "Creation" rather than to "Entropy". If this idea is true, then it would suggest that there is no actual sphere of Integration -- and that the Immortals of Entropy should each be assigned some sort of "secondary affiliation" based on former sphere of influence. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 09:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements Leroy Van Camp III pontificated: > On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Daniel Boese wrote: > > > Well, there's always PC1: Tall Tales of the Wee Folk's take on things... > > way, way, long ago, there were 5 spheres.. 4 of Death, and Life. Then > > there was a dramatic change, the 4 Death spheres collapsing into the > > single sphere of Entropy, and the sphere of Life blossoming into the > > current 4 spheres of Time, Matter, Energy, and Thought. And one day in the > > future, the cycle will continue... > > Then again, it might all be malarky told by those mischevous Sidhe. :) > > I don't own PC1, so I have to ask... do they say what the four Death > spheres were? > I don't think they really said it. After I read those passages again in PC1 a while ago, I come up with this theory, it doesn't match up completely with what PC1 said, but it might work. From what I can see, only the sphere of matter oppose entropy totally, as matter like to creat total order and entropy like to create disorder. However, sphere of energy, thought, and time, all have entropic element in it. So perhaps, the cycle that go between life and death that is mentioned in PC1 are actually the power shift between sphere of matter and entropy, with the other three spheres lean on one side or the other. Currently all three sphere gathers around matter and work againest entropy. But once matter became too powerful, they will shift towards entropy again to restore the balance, because total order are just as bad as total disorder. Sorry for a somewhat confusing post, but I got to go, and will elabrate on this if anyone is interested. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:03:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements In a message dated 96-07-20 10:25:41 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << After I read those passages again in PC1 a while ago, I come up with this theory, it doesn't match up completely with what PC1 said, but it might work. From what I can see, only the sphere of matter oppose entropy totally, as matter like to creat total order and entropy like to create disorder. However, sphere of energy, thought, and time, all have entropic element in it. So perhaps, the cycle that go between life and death that is mentioned in PC1 are actually the power shift between sphere of matter and entropy, with the other three spheres lean on one side or the other. Currently all three sphere gathers around matter and work againest entropy. But once matter became too powerful, they will shift towards entropy again to restore the balance, because total order are just as bad as total disorder. Sorry for a somewhat confusing post, but I got to go, and will elabrate on this if anyone is interested. >> Your theory makes perfect sense, especially to anyone who has read Moorcock. The Sphere of Energy would be the first to defect, as it already leans towards Chaos. The loss of magic on Mystara would probably prompt that switch. Then Time defects -- "Time's Arrow" sides with Entropy once there is no magic left to work against it. Finally, as the increasing dominance of Law goes from stifling magic to stifling creativity in general, the Sphere of Thought joins Entropy. At that point the overall balance shifts, magic returns to the world as an insanely destructive force, and we have an apocalypse similar to the one that destroyed Elric's world in _Stormbringer_. At that point the Spheres of Energy, Time, and Thought help Matter rebuild the world, and the cycle starts over. Or am I reading more into your theory than you intended? comes into play. ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Sat, 20 Jul 96 09:23:53 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Mystara-Spelljammer Does anyone know if, when they transfered Mystara to AD&D, they did anything to fit it into Spelljammer, and how? This would create great opportunities to travel between campaign worlds. J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Sat, 20 Jul 96 09:21:14 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... >I would go with the timeline in Gaz 13 and add in those details from the >Hollow World boxed set that do not contradict it. The Hollow World boxed set >contains some internal contradictions in regard to the Shadow Elves. If you >examine the basic timeline given on pp. 10-17 of the DM's Sourcebook, you >will see that it gives no details that contradict Gaz 13 -- The City of the >Stars, for example, is never mentioned at all. > >The contradictory material is given on pp. 83-84, but there is one statement >that suggests it is not to be taken at face value: "Perhaps subtly guided by >the Immortal Rafiel...." Why "perhaps"? This is material for the DM, who >should know the "real truth". I would suggest that the material on pp. 83-84 >represents the version of Schattenalfen history believed by the inhabitants >of the Lighthouse -- based on their interpretations of the few scraps of >information that they could assemble from various tribes of Hollow World >Elves. > >How does this suggestion sound? I agree. It's perfectly natural that they wouldn't know the true history. In fact, it's highly doubtful that they would. Also, using this idea would solve the problem. J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: wildcat@prysm.net (Jonathan M Thompson) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 13:21:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara-Spelljammer >Does anyone know if, when they transfered Mystara to AD&D, >they did anything to fit it into Spelljammer, and how? >This would create great opportunities to travel between campaign >worlds. > >J. Ovard > I use it as a new Crystal Sphere for my players, becuse of the Immoratals preistly magic above 2nd or 3rd level does not work as a cast spell. The Immortals do allow contact home plane and priest can get their spells that way. Priest of other gods are feared and are not welcome in most places. Karimekios is a little tolerant but not about spells cast in public. Also those that see the ship land view the PCs and "demons" and whatnot. (Whatever works for you). Also I have it tought to get to because there are now established pathways in the flow. Thats my opinion on it, but to each his own I always say Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein wildcat@prysm.net Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe "Strange shapes light up the sky, I hope to see them before I die... Don't ask if they are real, the Men In Black their lips are sealed" - Take me away [BOC] ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #170 ***************************** From ???@??? Mon Jul 22 09:44:39 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA05427; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 23:53:36 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA07589 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:37:50 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:37:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199607211337.IAA07589@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #171 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 34f6bdfedd60fc12a697c5656b7e73a3 mystara-digest Sunday, 21 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 171 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Planescape, Spelljammer, and Mystara On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, J. Ovard wrote: > Does anyone know if, when they transfered Mystara to AD&D, > they did anything to fit it into Spelljammer, and how? > This would create great opportunities to travel between campaign > worlds. There was a bit of discussion on this subject long ago, when the list was new. Most people seemed not to be interested. When TSR ported Mystara over to AD&D, they made it a part of the AD&D multiverse, but gave little/no information on how it interacts with the Spelljammer setting. I don't know of any official word on what the Mystaraspace crystal sphere is like. As a big Spelljammer and Planescape fan, I retrofitted Mystara to the settings immediately. AAMOF, in my current SJ campaign the PC's are heading to Mystara to break up a possible alliance between the Chainmen and the Iron Ring. Actually, this is what I originally got into Mystara for, having another world for my PC's to journey to and explore. Through one of the links on the Mystara Mailing List page at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm ...is a bunch of stuff that was posted to this list, then saved by me. One of them, sjknwld.txt, is a write up of how some of the countries of Mystara view spelljamming. Some might find it interesting (or not). For the record, in the Planescape accessory Faces of Sigil, one of the NPC's detailed in depth is Farrow, a Shadow Elf spy who is now a bit schizophrenic. Very interesting. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 22:53:41 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting Hi, if you need someone with good writing skill or a playtester, I'm here. Dave Brohman said: >The Orient is a geographical location, not a point of cultural >delineation. My preference leans to Chinese, though Thai and Japanese >cultures also offer many interesting facets that could be incorporated I prefer Chinese culture. We could get more ideas from real China's historical background... what about the Great Wall? There should be some barbarians (humanoids?) treatening this nation. Someone should write or find (where?) in the net some rules about ninjas. We need a name for that country! (how was China called in middle-age?) We have to find a government: an empire? a republic? I prefere a confederation of many small kingdoms. Who rules in that country? Warriors? Mages? Clerics? We should find a dominant class (almost every country has one). What about secret societies? In an oriental setting there should be many, maybe in war. Ok. Here are some ideas I wrote in 10 minutes. I'll keep working if you think they are good! I'll wait for feedback, criticism is really welcome! Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: Johnson Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 18:24:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental setting. I like the idea of developing other areas of Mystara that were left undeveloped by TSR. An oriental setting could be a very good idea. I makes sense that there would be one out there. However, I thought that I should point out that a small amount of detail about eastern Skothar is already available. People may have forgotten it, or are just not aware of it. The final installment of the Known World Grimoire by Bruce Heard in Dragon Magazine #200 concentrated primarily on the ee'aar and enduks of the Arm of the Immortals. However, there are a few brief mentions of two countries (Suma'a and Gombar) that are on the western coast of the Arm of the Immortals. These countries are inhabited by demi-ogres (part ogre blood and part Tanagoro) from Tangor in eastern Skothar. It implies that there is still a demi-ogre civilisation in existence on Skothar. These demi-ogres follow the immortal Sumag (at least the ones in Suma'a do), but there is no indication as to who precisely this Immortal is. Apparently, these demi-ogres have never travelled beyond the Arm of the Immortals because they believe only savage races exist beyond it. There is also a brief mention of the "warriors of Zyxl", but again no further information is given. This does not mean there can't be an oriental setting out there as well. I just thought everyone should be aware of this, so that it can be taken into account. A good location for an oriental setting might be east of the outer-world Jennite lands. Also, we shouldn't forget that Davania is the largest continent, and so far, it has had very little developed for it. There's a lot of land out there. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 02:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental setting. Johnson pontificated: > > there is still a demi-ogre civilisation in existence on Skothar. These demi-ogres follow > the immortal Sumag (at least the ones in Suma'a do), but there is no indication as to > who precisely this Immortal is. Apparently, these demi-ogres have never travelled > beyond the Arm of the Immortals because they believe only savage races exist beyond > it. There is also a brief mention of the "warriors of Zyxl", but again no further > information is given. > This does not mean there can't be an oriental setting out there as well. I just thought > everyone should be aware of this, so that it can be taken into account. A good location I was not aware of that, but the name Suma'a and Sumag are somewhat Chinese/Oriental sounding name. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 02:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres, Elements Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > Your theory makes perfect sense, especially to anyone who has read > Moorcock. The Sphere of Energy would be the first to defect, as it > already leans towards Chaos. The loss of magic on Mystara would > probably prompt that switch. Then Time defects -- "Time's Arrow" sides > with Entropy once there is no magic left to work against it. Finally, as > the increasing dominance of Law goes from stifling magic to stifling > creativity in general, the Sphere of Thought joins Entropy. At that point > the overall balance shifts, magic returns to the world as an insanely > destructive force, and we have an apocalypse similar to the one that > destroyed Elric's world in _Stormbringer_. At that point the Spheres > of Energy, Time, and Thought help Matter rebuild the world, and the > cycle starts over. > > Or am I reading more into your theory than you intended? > comes into play. > I never read Moorcock. I'm not that well read in fantasy. But what you said above was almost exactly what I was thinking, down to the order of the spheres. I put Thought closest to Matter simply because I wasn't sure where to place it and felt it should be farther away from Entropy than Energy and Time. The only problem I have with this is that based on real world physics, energy and matter are interchangeable, and probably should not be that far apart. Sorry, been an engineer, I think about this type of things a bit too much sometimes. But I can't figure out a better order than the one presented above. BTW, thanks for saying what I want to say better than what I could say it. I was quite surprised when I read your post. Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 03:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting Gabriele Ferri pontificated: > > Hi, > if you need someone with good writing skill or a playtester, I'm here. Thanks for the offering. > We could get more ideas from real China's historical background... what about the Great Wall? What do you want to know about it? Few bits of info on it. The Great Wall was build twice. First time about 2000 years ago, but that look more like a long earth mound, at least that is what it look like after all those years of erosion. The nice looking stone wall was build few hundred years ago along/on top of the old GW. But I often see people point at the new wall but quote the old wall's build date. Also, the wall is manned only a few strategic fortresses along the wall. Most of the wall is not manned. The wall's main purpose, I believe, was just to intimadate and prevent easy troop movement. The wall also follow closely to "rain line." That the regions south of the wall receive enough rain for agriculture, but north of the wall was too dry for that. > There should be some barbarians (humanoids?) treatening this nation. That would be very appropreiate. China was almost under constant threat of invasion/skirmish by "barbarians" from all sides. > Someone should write or find (where?) in the net some rules about ninjas. Note that ninja is from Japan. China have similar type of characters though. > We need a name for that country! (how was China called in middle-age?) Cathey, or something similar to that. However, I don't like to use real world name on fantasy worlds. Look how much confusion the name of Northern Reach immortals (Odin, Loki, etc) has caused. Also, some fantasy element seems to be lost when real world names are used, IMO, of course. The name of China that Chinese give to itself are generally very egocentric. Some of the names that have been used are Middle Kingdom, God Continant, Central Prime, Middle Plain, etc. How about a transliteration of one of those name? Such as Chung-Kuo, Shen-Cho, Chung-Eun, etc? > We have to find a government: an empire? a republic? I prefere a confederation of many small kingdoms. Will, China are pretty much an empire most of the time. But it could be more interesting if it is currently in a transation period between 2 dynasties, similar to the Warring State, which lasted over a hundered year I believe, and could very well be much longer in a more static world like Mystara. Basicly, after the fall of the empire, due to varous reason, each king, which was vassel to the emperor before, became independent, and each wants to unify the empire again, with him as the emperor. > Who rules in that country? Warriors? Mages? Clerics? We should find a dominant class (almost every country has one). Probably warriors, since most of the first emperor of a dynasty was a general leading the revolting army. Cleric might work too, as the emperor is believed to be reincarnation of dragons. Mages could be advisors or just doing their own stuff. After several generations though, the emperor probably generally not much more than normal human, because they are living in such of a sheltered environment. Especially true for the weaker or the more scharlorly emperors. > What about secret societies? In an oriental setting there should be many, maybe in war. What do you meant by secret societies? There are probably alot of guilds, gangs, etc. But generally they are not that secret. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 09:07:30 GMT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting >The first step is too decide what culture to model it on. There is likely >no more a single, blanket, all-encompassing Mystaran "oriental" culture >than there is a single "oriental" culture on Earth. > >The Orient is a geographical location, not a point of cultural >delineation. My preference leans to Chinese, though Thai and Japanese >cultures also offer many interesting facets that could be incorporated. I like the idea of developing a whole region. Those interested in ninjas, etc. can develope a Japanese culture >I was also thinking that the island of Zyxl would make an interesting >Japan analogue, but it does seem a bit far east of the proposed 'Asia' to >be perfect for the setting. Zyxl, along with part of the Tangor peninsula could be ideal. The "Warriors of Zyxl" could very well be Samurais or such. Humans? Or could they be Rakasta more faithful to the ways of Myoshima than their relatives in Bellayne? A major Chinese culture should also be included (i still like the Eastern jennite steppes down to Tangor Bay, descende from Jennites who settled down and isolted by hostile Jennites, Minaeans, and Half-ogres, but another location could always be chosen). I think we should also add cultures based on Siam and Burma, possibly to the south of China. >> There should be some barbarians (humanoids?) treatening this nation. > >That would be very appropreiate. China was almost under constant >threat of invasion/skirmish by "barbarians" from all sides. The East Skothar location gives two obvious barbarian groups to work with: The Jennites (roughly like Mongolians, perhaps a Great Wall keeps them out?) and the Half-Ogres (I know very little on the subject, but could they be made into approximations of the Manchu?) > >> We need a name for that country! (how was China called in middle-age?) > >Cathey, or something similar to that. However, I don't like to use >real world name on fantasy worlds. Look how much confusion the >name of Northern Reach immortals (Odin, Loki, etc) has caused. >Also, some fantasy element seems to be lost when real world names >are used, IMO, of course. The name of China that Chinese give to >itself are generally very egocentric. Some of the names that have From ???@??? Mon Jul 22 09:44:39 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA05427; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 23:53:36 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA07589 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:37:50 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:37:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199607211337.IAA07589@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #171 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 34f6bdfedd60fc12a697c5656b7e73a3 >been used are Middle Kingdom, God Continant, Central Prime, >Middle Plain, etc. How about a transliteration of one of those >name? Such as Chung-Kuo, Shen-Cho, Chung-Eun, etc? I completely agree with the avoidance of real-world names; I simply use them for convenience at this point. Which version of Chinese (language system) are these names? (I like them) >> We have to find a government: an empire? a republic? I prefer a confederation of many small kingdoms. >> Who rules in that country? Warriors? Mages? Clerics? We should find a dominant class (almost every country has one). I deleted Shin Chyang Yu's answer's in an attempt to be concise, but they were excellent ones. I feel that we should have several different countries with different and competing governments and dominant classes. One advantage to multiple nations is that we can also include several different periods of Chinese history at one time in the campaign. It seems that relative adherence to real-world history will make this job easiest. I really believe that we can all work together to turn this into reality. I assume that we are pretty much all working with limited time, but if we cooperate, I think we can do this. Let's give it our best shot! ------------------------------ From: plegrand Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 12:43:23 +-200 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting hello, >The first step is too decide what culture to model it on. There is likely >no more a single, blanket, all-encompassing Mystaran "oriental" culture >than there is a single "oriental" culture on Earth. > >The Orient is a geographical location, not a point of cultural >delineation. My preference leans to Chinese, though Thai and Japanese >cultures also offer many interesting facets that could be incorporated. About an oriental setting I think there's something like this in HPL Dreamlands (sorry I don't have the Chaosium supplement about it...). It would be nice to borrow some ideas of HPL about this one to make this land a little bit more original than real historical China or Japan. I read a post about the Great Wall...Maybe this wall could be below earth to prevent invasion from the Mystara underdark, such as deep gnolls (i'm really fond of gnolls, don't ask me why...). Just imagine hordes of gnolls running in tunnels attacked by groups of 'tunnel rats'. Imagine a land of pleasure and delicacy below which rages a bloody war... I like China and its culture but I would be pleased to see more fantasy stuff to design an oriental setting with no ninjas and samourais (these are japanese and not really original). I think I'm gonna rereading HPL and consorts about Dreamlands, and reseeing the Baby Carts and the Chinese Ghost Stories movie to get inspiration. About the war below earth, do you know why some chinese generals were burried with statues of their soldiers...Because they weren't staues but real soldiers who were petrificated while guarding the body of their prince. This is gnoll magic ! Pascal P.S : some time ago I said I would post something about the medieval France for Averoigne, are you still interested ? begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A8*`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &``P!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```#\`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!M>7-T87)A+6Q :6\N M8V]M`%--5% `;7ES=&%R82UL0&EO+F-O;0``'@`", $````%````4TU44 `` M```>``,P`0```!$```!M>7-T87)A+6Q :6\N8V]M``````,`%0P!`````P#^ M#P8````>``$P`0```!,````G;7ES=&%R82UL0&EO+F-O;2<```(!"S !```` M%@```%--5% Z35E35$%202U,0$E/+D-/30````,``#D`````"P! .@$````" M`?8/`0````0````````#T"P!"( '`!@```!)4$TN36EC7-T M87)A72!293H@3W)I96YT86P@# $````$````1D%8`!X`'PP!````#0`` M`"LS,R T.#0X-3$R,P`````#``80C)8OK ,`!Q!_!0``'@`($ $```!E```` M2$5,3$\L5$A%1DE24U135$5025-43T]$14-)1$572$%40U5,5%52151/34]$ M14Q)5$].5$A%4D5)4TQ)2T5,64Y/34]214%324Y'3$4L0DQ!3DM%5"Q!3$PM M14Y#3TU005-320`````"`0D0`0```+0%``"P!0``VP@``$Q:1G73\0[0_P`* M`0\"%0*H!>L"@P!0`O()`@!C: K <&LE M*78L/R9!`B#L($4*P"W@+BAV*'8CTD9/+&,NA&=E;PG 8;!P:&EC!T H`&\S MH'QT:0(@*? H\ 5 *7!P]F\+@"<19B7E!T H=B;!?0N 9303)U$KL#30%Z!F MOR>A*O C\"G0!B(F<4,S@)\VL!&P*? MX A@9V@G<<,+<"E@;F0@2C-@`'#/ M.0$H=B7U+J%LA$\ K 1$(KD \H$D0R!" +@"!(4$RD($07H&%M&H%D!""R*#P` M?L^P483 M=RJA/E@^P!4K#.D!U)$$'<&%1L?\C\#E@"R 'D5\G4E!<( ,` M_RN!1F$F(&,P'. NH0) `-#?*# ^H3=@"< (8'!-PTA IV/34E EP',G)U!) M897_4&$Z$C5!2<$K0"8R.A(V,6<"(%.1%Z!54BMR3A/_ M.B$%H " %T$NH4*31M@J@=\Z(3NA"> K1!&!V") F8C,0^5IBIS2L%"!9!A84!(HVJA_S?"2$$KT8;B;=)28X>V)9'[)1"%@W 1 MP :!,Y$_@6EB^2\A9W4+$7OV!N!JD8 MA^%:H ,@1BP!. '_`A"!44B0`V!Q02GA=0*#4F\]05A1/.9DH3\*A1;!``&: MH ,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T` 2`0````4```!213H@`````&!. ` end ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 14:37:59 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental setting About an Oriental setting remember the Yasuko Tribal Lands in North-Eastern Davania (look at the map in PWA2). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 14:38:03 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another Shadow Elf comment... At 00.02 05/02/80 -0500, you wrote: > One thing that I find kind of strange is why the elves of Alfheim >would seek refuge in Wendar. The wendarian elves are the closest relatives >of the shadow elves on Mystara. After the Great Rain Of Fire most of the >elves from the four clans that settled near Blackmoor went underground, but >some remained. They endured the ice age and survived to the present day, >becoming the elves of Wendar, they're even of the same clans as the Shadow >Elves!! Why would they help the Alfheim elves instead of their long lost >brethren? Very confusing... IIRC both Shadow Elves and Wendar elves settled near Blackmoor before the Great Rain of Fire and both survived, though in two different ways (SE underground, WE on the surface). Maybe they once were a single group, but I'm not sure on this. Anyway PWA2 says that "The elves from Wendar have all but forgotten this early part of their history". This explains why they helped the didn't helped the Shadow Elves. Moreover, as someone other pointed out, AE and WE have similar lifestyles, living both in the forest. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 14:38:06 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] timeline draft for AC 1014 At 00.27 18/07/96 EST, you wrote: Good work indeed your timeline for AC 1014. I've just to say a couple of things. >NUWMONT, AC 1014 > >Event: Aengmor warns Rafielton (the nation of Aengmor) not to ally >themselves with the former elves of Alfheim as they will only try to get their >homeland back and cause disention among the shadow elves. > >Meaning: A growing cult of Atzanteotl is gaining more power in the city of >Aengmor, and it wishes to spread it's influence to the other shadow elves. >They fear that if they learn of the inherent goodness of the surface elves, it >will be harder to convince them to worship Atzanteotl. > The cult of Atzanteotl was introduced by the various artifacts/religious >icons left behind by the humanoids, as well as the old shadow elf wanderers >living in the city who also took to the rules of Atzanteotl. The wanderers >would rather see Atzanteotl in charge than Rafiel, as Rafiel's shamans will >only force them to leave once more when discovered, and they have come to >regard Aengmor/Oenkmar as their home. > I'm not sure that the wanderers would support Atzanteotl. They're old, wise and intelligent; after leaving their homeland they understood that Rafiel is not really a cruel being because he didn't let them die, but guided them in Oenkmar. They also understood that the pratice of forcing old elves to leave their homeland his essential to avoid overpopulation and famine in the Shadow Elves' caves, because of the few natural resources they've underground. On the other hand, having lived a few years in Oenkmar, they surely learned the harshness and cruelty of Atzanteotl. I would rather say that the wanderers give birth to a new way of worshipping Rafiel, now that SE controls a larger area (Aengmor city, Aengmor nation and their underground territories) and have few problems of overpopulation and famine, though no one of their territories is really life-friendly. > >VATERMONT, AC 1014 > >Event: Despite warnings from Aengmor, after several small meetings between >elves representing King Doriath and Princess Tanadaleyo, the shadow elves and >elves of Alfheim agree to work together to save the Canolbarth forest, and >perhaps learn to live together in one elven nation. > Several surface elven mages and Tree Keepers move back to the forest, >joining the Norwold (Foresthome) elves and shadow elves in working out magic >to save the trees. Among them is Jorodrin Feadiel, the former Tree Keeper of >Clan Feadiel (from GAZ 5: The Elves of Alfheim). > Mmmh, perhaps a single month is not enough between this two events. >THAUMONT, AC 1014 > >Event: The elves of Alfheim are mystified as their magic spells fail to >bring back water to the Canolbarth Forest. Some of the spells even missfire >and cause minor injuries. Tension begins to mount between the shadow elves >and surface elves, as each suspects the other of sabotage. > After a couple of weeks of research, the elves discover that some strange >magic is starting to overwhelm the forest and is preventing the elve's magic >from working. The exact nature of this magic remains a complete mystery. > >Question: I have been debating on whether or not Kanafasti would join the >elder wanderers in raising the city to the surface or not. His dislike of the >shamans and Rafiel as well as Xatapechtli's influence on him might cause him >to help, but he is also loyal to the Royals and doesn't want them to lose >power either. Any opinions on the matter? I think that SE need the help of Atzanteotl to raise the city, so Atzanteotl can influence Kanafasti as he did during the invasion of Alfheim (see my timeline on that matter). > >KLARMONT, AC 1014 > >Event: There is celebration in Thyatis City as Emperor Eusebius I's daughter >is born. Eusebius names her Valentia after the famous Empress of Thyatis that >ruled the Empire of Thyatis in the year AC 20 and held it together after >Zendrolion's death. (See Dawn of the Emperors boxed set for Thyatis' history) > >Meaning: There is no hidden meaning in this event. Of special note, >Demetrion Karagenteropolus, the Magist to the Emperor of Thyatis, has noticed >that Valentia seems very magicaly inclined and could one day become a powerful >wizardess if trained correctly. > Can he really note that Valentia seems magical inclined at her birth ? IMO he should wait a few years before saying so. >FYRMONT, AC 1014 > >Event: Earthquakes shake northern Darokin and southern Glantri, as well as >western Ethengar. Soon enough, adventurers and merchants coming out of the >Broken Lands report the source of the tremblings: A city has risen out of the >depths of the Broken Lands. > A few days later, Princess Tanadaleyo of Rafielton announces that the >Shadow elves have risen their sacred city of Aengmor to the surface of the >Broken Lands from where it sank to several centuries ago. > The final ramification is to the humanoids of the Broken Lands. The >shadow elven military immediately gets to work at purging them from the area. >Many flee to the Great Crater and join Kol's forces, while some stay behind to >join a couple of brave humanoids leaders who plan on driving the shadow elves >out of their lands. Unfortunately for those planning on eliminating the >shadow elves, they are badly trained, equiped, and lead, and suffer almost >total destruction clashing with the shadow elves. I don't remember if Alebane is still alive, maybe he is the leader of those who decide to stay behind and fight. >KALDMONT, AC 1014 > >Event: The leaders of the city of Aengmor declare themselves independent from >the City of Stars and the Way of Rafiel. A civil war breaks out in the city >as the factions fight for control. > Soon after, a the civil war spreads into the neighboring Rafielton and >nation of Aengmor, as the cult of Atzanteotl strive to dominate the shadow >elves on the surface world. > The City of Stars sends loyal troops to help squash the rebellion. > I would move this event to AC 1015. Elves, even shadow ones, are a "slow-moving" race. I think they would wait a few months before declaring independence. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #171 ***************************** mystara-digest Monday, 22 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 172 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 09:21:15 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Sunday, 21-Jul-96 12:43 PM > From: plegrand \ Internet: (plegrand@pratique.fr) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > Subject: RE: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting > Pascal > > P.S : some time ago I said I would post something about the medieval France > for Averoigne, are you still interested ? - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Yes, I am! Please go ahead, when you get a chance! Thanks, Shelby ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 18:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] new Immortal-Tlazcon Tlazcon Sphere:Matter Rank:Novice Temporal History:Tlazcon's father was an Azcan Ka-worshipper who was part of an underground resistance vs. the empire. His mother was a Toralai fighter who helped hide these Azcans for many years in thevst plains. He lived among her people for most of his life but was heavily influenced by both cultures. For a brief period, he adventured with his parents and their allies(Golorius, Shafar, Goppack, Bachiphix and Grunnhild-many of whom will be posted seperately). He quickly developed into a fine fighter and helped his father achieve several small victories against the Azcan rulers, finally resulting in the death of several of the Emporer's sons. Tlazcon's last accomplishment as a mortal was to help stop the Carnifex from invading the world, for which he was granted immortality(as were 4 others). Since achieving immortality, he has become a major student of the Hollow World, especially the Spell of Preservation. Having been raised by two cultures and being able to pick out the finest from each, he is ashamed at how few others get this chance. He has taken to arguing over this spell and many aspects of the Hollow World, especially arguing with those who made the HW what it is(Ka, Ixion, Korotiku, Ordanna). They often ignore this young immortal, but do take his ideas seriously. Followers:Tlazcon, not being the patron of a specific cause, has no followers. Allies/Enemies:Diulanna, patron of the Neathar and of the willpower he has shown is proud of his accomplishments and attitude. The various creators of the Hollow World are mostly allies, but he argues with them as much as they argued with each other for many years before his immortality. Symbol:A Toralai spear in front of an Azcan pyramid Appearance:A Toralai man of average stature. He shows some signs of his Azcan parentage, but fits in perfectly in any Neathar crowd, better than many full-blooded Neathar. Personality:Tlazcon is never afraid to speak his mind or debate over the Hollow World and how it's run. He is proud of both sides of his ancestry and does not revel in himself and his deeds, but rather those of his parents. Stats:(most are same for each form) STR 13 INT 11 WIS 9 DEX 12 CON 10 CHR 11 Greater Talents 35 Lesser Talents 31 Alignment Neutral as mortal, Lawful as Immortal HD 20 Class NeatharFighter, level 17(!) PP 500 HP 66 as mortal, 100 as immortal AC 3(shield+3) as mortal, 0 as immortal Weapon(both forms):Spear+3 Skills possessed in mortal life:Plains Survival(11),Endurance(10),Plains Hiding(11),Hunt(11),Acrobat(12),Military Tactics(11), Forest Survival(11), Plains Stealth(12) Sludge not see these decepticons before -Sludge Not see again either coz we dino-mite them to pieces-Snarl ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 18:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] New immortal-Grunnhild Grunnhild, Patron of Antalian Women Warriors Sphere:Thought Rank:Initiate History:Grunnhild was bought up in a family with a long history of worship to Fredara. Following in the footsteps of many older siblings, she too became a cleric of that immortal. She rose in the ranks rather quickly, becoming the head of her local church of Fredara. But being a far-sighted person, she saw that her progress would be limited in her small town. When a few foreigners came by, explorers and adventurers, she quickly joined in, using her rare clerical powers to help them while gaining knowledge of the rest of the world and furthering her own skills. After many years, she returned home to the Antalian north. Her experiences in the outside world made her see just how poorly her fellow Antalian women were treated. She started tp fight for the rights of women in her society but was often blocked by the Spell of Preservation's effects. She still was rising in strength and skill, eventually becoming the High Cleric of Fredara in Antalia. Once in this position, she didn't stop and enjoy the progress but rather set her eyes on the paths to Immortality. Her quest took many years, but proved simple enough. She was already a mentor to many young clerics and found a suitable successor to the High Priesthood easy enough. A legendary weapon was made of her battle-ax, when it was used to single-handedly defeat a huge white dragon that had wrecked several villages in the north. During her short career as a wandering adventurer, she had already destroyed an artifact of Entropy. Finding a powerful artifact of Thought was hard and involved defeating a small magic school in the Azcan lands, but after that was done she only had one step left:completing a near-impossible task. Seeing as how her actions to get most Antalians to change their gender attitudes had failed, she had long wanted to make a new culture out of the Antalian one, one of female rule. Fredara wondered what the results would be, and knowing the difficulty of the task within the Spell of Preservation, she ordered it to Grunnhild as a final task. Not realizing the difficulty of it herself, Grunnhild got many skilled warriors and clerics of Fredara and created for them a small village on the eastern outskirts of Antalian lands. Surprisingly, she succeeded rather quickly in making this society, which persevered by the fact that many of the women had young boys whom they raised in this new tradition of female rule and control. Currently, the village is smalled but filled with skilled female warriors, dedicated to this cause, as well as more and more subservient men. Having completed her quest, Grunnhild was accepted into the ranks of the immortals. Nowadays, she watches over Antalians, especially her small village, lending small interventions to make sure it grows to become another, albeit, minor, new culture in the Hollow World. Followers:Grunnhild has no followers and doesn't beg for any. Fredara continues to be the patron of the small village Grunnhild created. Allies/Enemies:Fredara thinks her one-time High Cleric is a bit too radical and may overly dsirupt life in Antalia, but continues to support her. The other Antalian deities are highly angered at her actions, but don't take major actions to her project, as they too are anxious to see the future results. Symbol:A large battle axe Appearance:(Mortal form)A tall(5'9"), slightly heavyset women who is obviously in overall solid health and a capable fighter. Her read hair is tinged with grey from age(53 yrs old) and the effects of a long, hard-fought life. She carries an axe in her hands and wears a medallion of Fredara. (Immortal Form)Slightly larger, stronger, but basically the same. Personality:Grunnhild is very much a warrior at heart, not a builder of civilizations as she has become. She wishes the best for her home nation, especially the women therein, but is a bit close-minded and only sees the positives in many cases and therefore misjudges a situation and acts wrongly. In situations where she is a neutrla bystander, she behaves perfectly logically though. Stats:(most are same for each form) STR 12 INT 7 WIS 16 DEX 10 CON 11 CHR 8 Greater Talents 33 Lesser Talents 31 Alignment Neutral HD 15 Class Cleric of Fredara, level 36 PP 454 HP 60 as mortal, 75 as immortal AC -3 as mortal(CM+4,RoP+4), 0 as immortal Weapon(both forms):Battle Axe+5, Grand Master Skills possessed in mortal life:Honor Fredara(19),Endrurance(11),Drinking(11),Mountaneering(10), Climb Walls(100%), Danger Sense(17),Det. Deception(17), Wrestling(12),Persausion(9) Sludge not see these decepticons before -Sludge Not see again either coz we dino-mite them to pieces-Snarl ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 23:10:27 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental setting. Johnson writes: > > eastern Skothar is already available. People may have forgotten it, or are just not > aware of it. > The final installment of the Known World Grimoire by Bruce Heard in Dragon Magazine #200 > concentrated primarily on the ee'aar and enduks of the Arm of the Immortals. However, > there are a few brief mentions of two countries (Suma'a and Gombar) that are on the > western coast of the Arm of the Immortals. These countries are inhabited by demi-ogres > (part ogre blood and part Tanagoro) from Tangor in eastern Skothar. It implies that > there is still a demi-ogre civilisation in existence on Skothar. These demi-ogres follow > the immortal Sumag (at least the ones in Suma'a do), but there is no indication as to > who precisely this Immortal is. Apparently, these demi-ogres have never travelled > beyond the Arm of the Immortals because they believe only savage races exist beyond > it. There is also a brief mention of the "warriors of Zyxl", but again no further > information is given. Well, there certainly could be a civilisation of demi-ogres there. but Tangor Peninsula is not too close to the area I mentioned there is still plenty of room for several oriental nations. Although Davania is larger, there has been more official attention paid to it, and it seems to me that in order to inadvertantly cause any continuity errors we should stick with Skothar. Most major migrations have moved through Davania, so there is too much of a chance of creating something that's conflicting. However, pretty much nothing has been said about Skothar... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 23:14:29 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting Gabriele Ferri writes: > > Hi, > if you need someone with good writing skill or a playtester, I'm here. I'll put you on the list I'm making... > I prefer Chinese culture. > > We could get more ideas from real China's historical background... what about the Great Wall? > There should be some barbarians (humanoids?) treatening this nation. > Someone should write or find (where?) in the net some rules about ninjas. How about just adapting the Mystic rules? This whole discussion arose out of trying to find a place for Mystics in the Mystara setting... > We need a name for that country! (how was China called in middle-age?) Hopefully there will be more than one country created for this setting, we want a variety here... > We have to find a government: an empire? a republic? I prefere a confederation of many small kingdoms. > Who rules in that country? Warriors? Mages? Clerics? We should find a dominant class (almost every country has one). > What about secret societies? In an oriental setting there should be many, maybe in war. > > Ok. Here are some ideas I wrote in 10 minutes. I'll keep working if you think they are good! > I'll wait for feedback, criticism is really welcome! These all sound pretty good, I'll get back to everyone once i've got a list of all those interested. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 23:21:27 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting Shin Chyang Yu writes: > > There should be some barbarians (humanoids?) treatening this nation. > > That would be very appropreiate. China was almost under constant > threat of invasion/skirmish by "barbarians" from all sides. > > > Someone should write or find (where?) in the net some rules about ninjas. > > Note that ninja is from Japan. China have similar type of characters > though. We could have a japanese-like nation as well, we shouldn't confine ourselves to just one nation, but rather a diverse group of nations with an oriental flavour, that interact closely with one another. Similar to the Known World, but based on Eastern, not Western culture... > > We need a name for that country! (how was China called in middle-age?) Or those countries ( plural ). > Cathey, or something similar to that. However, I don't like to use > real world name on fantasy worlds. Look how much confusion the > name of Northern Reach immortals (Odin, Loki, etc) has caused. > Also, some fantasy element seems to be lost when real world names > are used, IMO, of course. The name of China that Chinese give to > itself are generally very egocentric. Some of the names that have > been used are Middle Kingdom, God Continant, Central Prime, > Middle Plain, etc. How about a transliteration of one of those > name? Such as Chung-Kuo, Shen-Cho, Chung-Eun, etc? > Will, China are pretty much an empire most of the time. But it > could be more interesting if it is currently in a transation period > between 2 dynasties, similar to the Warring State, which lasted over > a hundered year I believe, and could very well be much longer in a > more static world like Mystara. Basicly, after the fall of the > empire, due to varous reason, each king, which was vassel to the > emperor before, became independent, and each wants to unify the empire > again, with him as the emperor. > Probably warriors, since most of the first emperor of a dynasty was a > general leading the revolting army. Cleric might work too, as the > emperor is believed to be reincarnation of dragons. Mages could be > advisors or just doing their own stuff. After several generations > though, the emperor probably generally not much more than normal > human, because they are living in such of a sheltered environment. From ???@??? Tue Jul 23 11:43:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA19346; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 00:33:42 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA12386 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:17:50 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:17:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199607221417.JAA12386@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #172 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: fbedc7ef274c48afd8c95ab3b2461382 > Especially true for the weaker or the more scharlorly emperors. It looks like we have the basics for at least one nation in that area now... Someone should also develop the Demi-ogre nation and I believe it should be oriental in style ( ogre-mages in Mystara? ) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jody Duncan Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 23:28:04 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting Patrick writes: > I like the idea of developing a whole region. Those interested in ninjas, > etc. can develope a Japanese culture That was the whole idea. We don't have to have constraints on using any one particular oriental culture, we can use whichever ones we want, by making several nations. > Zyxl, along with part of the Tangor peninsula could be ideal. The "Warriors > of Zyxl" could very well be Samurais or such. Humans? Or could they be > Rakasta more faithful to the ways of Myoshima than their relatives in Bellayne? > A major Chinese culture should also be included (i still like the Eastern > jennite steppes down to Tangor Bay, descende from Jennites who settled down > and isolted by hostile Jennites, Minaeans, and Half-ogres, but another > location could always be chosen). I think we should also add cultures based > on Siam and Burma, possibly to the south of China. I like this, we have some pretty good ideas flowing here... > The East Skothar location gives two obvious barbarian groups to work with: > The Jennites (roughly like Mongolians, perhaps a Great Wall keeps them out?) > and the Half-Ogres (I know very little on the subject, but could they be > made into approximations of the Manchu?) I think the demi-ogres should be oriental in culture, but I'm not too knowledgeable about oriental culture. Sounds good though. > assume that we are pretty much all working with limited time, but if we > cooperate, I think we can do this. Let's give it our best shot! I think we should as well. I'll repeat my offer to be bookkeeper again, just to be sure everyone who's interested knows, I'll keep a list of all those interested if you'll e-mail me. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:06:16 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire After reviewing the scanty "official" material about Skothar, I have come to realize that this continent just begs for further development. Referring to Dragon #153, where the "Princess Ark" series begins, I see many place names from the old Master's set given, along with commentary by Prince Haldemar stating that all of it is wrong. However, he seems to overstate his case -- at least one of the nations whose existence he rejected, Tangor, actually exists on Mystara. I would suggest that he was equally mistaken about the "Empire of the Great Khan" in central Skothar, which the Alphatians never explored because they never got past the Jennites and Minaeans of the coastal regions. This would be the perfect location for a culture based on that of China. This "Great Empire" was originally settled by Jennite nomads and was prey to attacks from them until they were weakened by a civil war that destroyed many of the nomads and caused many others to be transported to the Hollow World. If you want a "Great Wall" to exist, it is certainly conceivable that they would have built one between the Empire and the Steppes of Jen. Anyway, once the Jennites were out of the picture, the "Great Empire" began its rise to greatness. Eventually they became so powerful that their enemies -- the Jennite nomads to the northwest, the Minaean pirates to the southwest, and the Nentsun humanoids of the surrounding mountains - -- wereforced to respect their borders. They built a single seaport next to the Sea of Zamara and sent out trading expeditions all over the world but avoided "barbaric, uncivilized" areas such as Alphatia, Bellisaria, the Isle of Dawn, and the continent of Brun (in short, all of the "Known World"). For various reasons, they regarded the Alphatians and later Thyatians as barbarians of the worst sort, and the sack of their seaport by the Alphatians ca. 700 AC only confirmed this attitude -- as well as initiating a period of isolationism from which the Great Empire has not yet emerged. (For their part, the Alphatians thought that the seaport they sacked was a Minaean pirate base.) The Great Empire is currently ruled by a gold dragon who assumes human form on the few occasions when he must interact with his subjects. When- ever the emperor dies, a new emperor is selected by the other dragons. Each "dynasty" of emperors is actually the single reign of a particular dragon. The character of the nation changes considerably depending on what type of dragon the current emperor is -- for example, the Great Empire was very militant and aggressive when its ruler was a red dragon. Once in a while a human Mage pretending to be a dragon assumes power, but such imposters are generally deposed after a brief but bloody civil war. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:18:47 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Other nations of Skothar In addition to the Great Empire, the continent of Skothar contains many cultures of interest. Like Brun, it has as neighbors many cultures that are in much closer proximity than their real world counterparts. Starting in the north, here are a few of the more interesting cultures: Nentsun Peninsula: Obviously, this region should be home to a culture similar to that of the Inuit of North America or the natives of northern Siberia. Hidden somewhere on this peninsula is the secret city of the Qauriks, as described in the _Creature Catalog_. Thonia: This region is settled by people of Antalian ancestry and has a culture similar to that of the Heldanners with one important difference -- their elite have access to caches of Blackmoor era artifacts, which they use to launch wars of conquest. Fortunately for the rest of Mystara, they discovered the secret of spelljamming and decided to conquer other crystal spheres rather than waste their time subduing the barbarians of their own world. Of course, this is not good news for the rest of the multiverse. Steppes of Jen: The details of this culture can be inferred from _Dawn of the Emperors_ and the Hollow World boxed set. Presumably, most of the surviving nomads are chauvinistic followers of Rathanos. Nentsun Plateau: The areas of this region visited by outsiders are inhabited by hostile humanoids, mostly Bakemono, Oni, and Ogre Magi. However, deep within is a great civilization dominated by Mystics (sort of a cross between Tibet and Shangri-La). Jennite Sword: More hostile humanoids dominate this area. Here most of the humanoids are ogres (of the Western sort), trolls, bugbears, gnolls, and alaghi. Minaean Coast: These less civilized cousins of the Jennites who settled the Great Empire are known to the survivors of Alphatia as fierce pirates. Their lands consist of many coastal seaports as well as a dense jungle. Southeast Asia would probably be a good model for this culture. They are long time enemies of both Alphatia and the Great Empire. Tangor: In the southern mountains live the descendants of the Tanagoro. What sort of culture would they have now? Let's see -- an African culture in a mountainous region -- ancient Ethiopia is probably our best model here. For fantasy flavor, throw in the medieval legends of Prester John. Zyxl: Since Haldemar says that this island was named after a female gladiator, let's go with that. For anyone who wanted an Amazon culture on Mystara, I humbly submit, this is it! The women of Zyxl are fierce warriors who occasionally go adventuring in the outside world. Their men are kept at home to perform domestic chores and for breeding purposes. Outsiders who intrude on their island are killed or captured and enslaved. ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:56:57 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting People, I'm getting crazy.... The only Mystara map I have is the one = which was included in the OD&D master set (in the Italian edition...) = :-( Please, can someone explain me where Skothar is? I suppose it is the = continent which is in front of the east coast of Alphatia, where there = is the Great Khan's Empire... right? I've found Zyxl on this map, is the Tangor peninsula in front of Zyxl's = west coast? Are the jennite steppes in the centre of Skothar? And Suma? And Davania? I'm sorry if my questions are boring, but my ugly map isn't clear at = all! Where can I get a better one? Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 13:38:58 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] Barbarians for the Oriental setting Hi again. Since I don't know so much about Chinese culture (I have no books and = the library is on holiday), I'm going to write something about the = "barbarians" who treatens our Oriental Country. Now, here are some general ideas, if you have something to add or you = don't like something, let me know soon, before I start writing: Human barbarians are Mongol-like, great horsemens and really good with = bow and arrows (I'll get some ideas from the GAZ about Ethengar). For half-ogre and others humanoid barbarians, I'm going to get many = ideas from a tribe who really treatened China (I don't know their = English name, in Italian is 'Unni', they are the ones who later came in = Europe), and from others germanic tribes describes by Tacitus (Ok, = that's not historically accurate, but I feel it's better like that...). I don't know anything about Rakastas, so it's better if someone else = writes something about them. Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it P.S. Should barbarians have any magic-user? ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 06:01:06 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > > The East Skothar location gives two obvious barbarian groups to work with: > > The Jennites (roughly like Mongolians, perhaps a Great Wall keeps them out?) > > and the Half-Ogres (I know very little on the subject, but could they be > > made into approximations of the Manchu?) > > I think the demi-ogres should be oriental in culture, but I'm not > too knowledgeable about oriental culture. Sounds good though. Hmm... A demi-ogre oriental culture? Brings to mind the Ogre-Magi from AD&D. Not a bad place to look for ideas if this is what you had in mind. Perhaps demi-ogres share the place with their full blooded kin- full blooded and magic powerful kin. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 06:18:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Other nations of Skothar On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In addition to the Great Empire, the continent of Skothar contains many > cultures of interest. Like Brun, it has as neighbors many cultures that > are in much closer proximity than their real world counterparts. Starting > in the north, here are a few of the more interesting cultures: I like a lot of the ideas you have presented here... let me just post a few of what I think may be interesting tidbits... > Thonia: This region is settled by people of Antalian ancestry and has a > culture similar to that of the Heldanners with one important difference -- > their elite have access to caches of Blackmoor era artifacts, which they > use to launch wars of conquest. Fortunately for the rest of Mystara, they > discovered the secret of spelljamming and decided to conquer other > crystal spheres rather than waste their time subduing the barbarians of > their own world. Of course, this is not good news for the rest of the > multiverse. I like some of the barebones ideas you have here, but I don't like the degree to which you have taken them (Just my opinion, no flame intended. :) I would make this region still very barbaric- they are the ancestors of the destroyed Thonian empire, (an empire done in by their own excesses!- much like the Minaeans or, for a real world example Rome at its end). They have since descended into savagery, forgetting their glorious past. Occasional troves of Blackmoor era artifacts can be found and eventually puzzled out, and such discoveries usually culminate in a mass attack against the other regions of Skothar, though they are inevitably driven back. I might make them similar to the Skandaharian peoples of the DA series, but somewhat more barbaric. Recall as well, that Blackmoor (and the northern reaches of the Thonian empire) rested on a mysterious black rock which harbored mystical properties- indeed, the whole of the north was very rich in magic- and all the mayhem resultant from it- monsters, etc. > Steppes of Jen: The details of this culture can be inferred from _Dawn of > the Emperors_ and the Hollow World boxed set. Presumably, most of the > surviving nomads are chauvinistic followers of Rathanos. I would probably (though this is still in debate in my mind) make the Jennites descendants of the Peshwa nomads of the DA series, just to put this in historical context. Leads one to wonder, though, where the Afridhi people and their patron immortal Zugzul are, if any of their descendants survived to the present day. Also, and this is on a different but similar vein- on my Mystara, I have moved the Sylvan Realm from its given location (in GAZ5) on the far northeastern side of the Hyborean Mtns (I think that's right...) to the other side, close to the big lake across from the Yazak steppes. This way it is closer to the races that live on the Immortal's arm (the Ee'ar, who are descended from elven migrants to the SR) and the others. Doubtless the demi-ogres are aware of the elves there, even though they are isolationist. This also sort of jives with the theory of elven migration- it is stated that Mealiden moved them because the area around was becoming overpopulated by humanoids and other races. As for me, I can't see anyone wanting to live waaay up near the north pole where the SR is supposed to exist. YMMV. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #172 ***************************** mystara-digest Monday, 22 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 173 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nightshade" Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:17:10 AST Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. The Immortals/Gods of the Karameikan Church are Asterius (head), Vanya (war), Ilsundal (magic/elves), Valerias (love/women/marriage/childbirth) and Tarastia (law/justice/revenge). They also pay lip service to Alphaks (who is a nemesis/demon figure - a hold over from the days of Alphatian domination) and Thanatos (same, but also represents death). As for the "Catholic" comment all I can say is that I noticed it too, but instead of rejecting it, I kept it and ran with it. Notice the seperation of the CoKarameikos from the main body of the CoThyatis, the secular divisions within Karameikos, it's alliance with the Order of the Griffon, and the political intrigue in its upper echalons (primarily over the Traladar). I have a priest character in my game who served Solarios (a minor addition on my part to the Church's pantheon). He is the questing/fighting arm of the Church, a Griffon Order cleric version of a paladin (more magic, less melee stuff). He too ran with the Catholic edge - trying to mission to the other PCs and outsiders, and trying to uphold the virtues of the Church despite the continual tribulations of accomanying a party including a Glantrian necromancer (a love-hate friendship there). The character shaves his pate (sp?), wears white bishop-like robes (being level 16 and a patriarch in Alphatia, his new place of residence), a crusader-like tabard and banner, flanged mace, etc. No one is offended (that player is a Catholic) and I do make the distinction between the Karameikan "catholics" (who resemble an early-Christian/High Middle Age church) and the modern, post-Vatican 2 real life institution. HICKEY MATTHEW St.Thomas University Fredericton, N.B., Canada Email GNKGP@StThomasU.ca ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 15:48:39 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara-Spelljammer J." Ovard writes: > Does anyone know if, when they transfered Mystara to AD&D, > they did anything to fit it into Spelljammer, and how? > This would create great opportunities to travel between campaign > worlds. I don't think anything specific was done, other than to mention that Spelljamming between Mystara and other AD&D worlds was possible, as TSR is, to the best of my knowledge, discontinuing the Spelljammer line. Apparently Spelljammer, like Mystara, has a smaller, but dedicated following, and is therefore considered a failure by TSR. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara-Spelljammer On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Dave Brohman wrote: > I don't think anything specific was done, other than to mention that > Spelljamming between Mystara and other AD&D worlds was possible, as TSR > is, to the best of my knowledge, discontinuing the Spelljammer line. For the record... TSR discontinued the SJ line long ago, but they did not discard the ideas set forth. In the Planescape boxed set they desribe the Prime as it is in SJ (crystal spheres, phlogiston, etc.), and the Sigil guide has a small story on a guy who inadvertantly buys a spelljamming ship. So the line is dead, but not forgotten. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 06:20:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Bellayne >> tion of their original "Japanese" culture and the "Victorian" culture that >> must be their distorted interpretation of how their neighbors live. > >Having not read the Red Steel boxed set, I can't comment on the >presentation of Bellayne there. > > >As for Red Steel's incorporation of Oriental influences? My best guess is >that, in converting it to AD&D, the designers wanted to retain the >'Oriental' flavor to their Rakasta, but also didn't want to totally >redesign Bellayne, so they altered it from it's original (i.e., Bruce >Heard-ian) description. Actually the explanation given in Red Steel is that Bellayne was a nation of victorian engalnd like humans, that invited the Rakasta to join their nation after some sort of disaster. Hence the english names and oriental influences. It's sort of a mix between victorian england and the feudal japan. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 06:20:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental setting >Bellayne Is a combination of Oriental & Victorian English culture. The moon >Myoshima and Ochalea are the only genuine Oriental settings on Mystara. The >idea to create an Oriental setting east of the jennite steppes is excellent. >With slight modifications, a culture similar to China could easily be placed >north of Tangor Bay (see map of Mystara, D&D Rules Cylopedia), with a >southeast Asian culture on the peninsula to the south. I would love to help >on this, but I am somewhat lacking in knowledge regarding Asian cultures. If >there are others out there serious about developing a Mystaran Orient, lets >try to do it! I don't have a whole lot of time either, but we could do it slowly. I'll volunteer to do the bookkeeping. If anyone whose interested could e-mail me then I'll make a list of everybody who wants to help with this and we can get started. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 06:20:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... At 02:36 AM 7/20/96 -0400, you wrote: >I would go with the timeline in Gaz 13 and add in those details from the >Hollow World boxed set that do not contradict it. The Hollow World boxed set >contains some internal contradictions in regard to the Shadow Elves. If you >examine the basic timeline given on pp. 10-17 of the DM's Sourcebook, you >will see that it gives no details that contradict Gaz 13 -- The City of the >Stars, for example, is never mentioned at all. > >The contradictory material is given on pp. 83-84, but there is one statement >that suggests it is not to be taken at face value: "Perhaps subtly guided by >the Immortal Rafiel...." Why "perhaps"? This is material for the DM, who >should know the "real truth". I would suggest that the material on pp. 83-84 >represents the version of Schattenalfen history believed by the inhabitants >of the Lighthouse -- based on their interpretations of the few scraps of >information that they could assemble from various tribes of Hollow World >Elves. > >How does this suggestion sound? I think this is what I'm going to go with. I'll be posting my summary of elven history and migrations when I'm finished it, with markers where I have assumed/modified anything. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 06:20:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental setting At 11:29 PM 7/19/96 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Patrick wrote: > >> >> Bellayne Is a combination of Oriental & Victorian English culture. The moon >> Myoshima and Ochalea are the only genuine Oriental settings on Mystara. The >> idea to create an Oriental setting east of the jennite steppes is excellent. >> With slight modifications, a culture similar to China could easily be placed >> north of Tangor Bay (see map of Mystara, D&D Rules Cylopedia), with a >> southeast Asian culture on the peninsula to the south. I would love to help >> on this, but I am somewhat lacking in knowledge regarding Asian cultures. If >> there are others out there serious about developing a Mystaran Orient, lets >> try to do it! > >I was also thinking that the island of Zyxl would make an interesting >Japan analogue, but it does seem a bit far east of the proposed 'Asia' to >be perfect for the setting. ('Zyxl' is also a very non-Japanese name, but >remember, that's just the Thyatian name of it, from that old map. The >native name could be completely different.) This all seems to be a pretty >interesting idea - I think that if enough good ideas get put forth, we >might be able to create an interesting Oriental Mystara setting - although Great. Would you like to help out? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 06:20:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental culture (was: Mages) >> >> However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If >> >> there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, >> >> it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create >> >> our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. >> Mystaran Oriental culture there. Any takers on developping it? I'll try to >> help, but my knowledge of oriental culture is limited. Perhaps what we could >> do is take small portions of it and let individuals develop their own >> oriental nation there. Starting with just basic descriptions at first, >> looking at other peoples work on their areas and then working out the >> interactions between the nations and there collective histories. The more >> people we get the better it will become. > >Being the token oriental on this list (my apology if I'm wrong on this), >I would love to help out on this. However, I personally lack the time, >creativity, and writting skill to develop this by myself. So if anyone >out there like to give this a try, please drop me a note. My main area >of knowledge is in China. It's not really that hard. I'll try to help out with this, but I'm not sure how much time I'll have, it might take awhile. How about we start by choosing an area in eastern Skothar where we'll create the first nation... Pick a place. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 06:20:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental culture (was: Mages) >> > a long time ago. Nowhere else is this part of the Mystara setting described. >> > There is a vast expanse of land there and it would be quite easy to base a >> > Mystaran Oriental culture there. Any takers on developping it? I'll try to >> > help, but my knowledge of oriental culture is limited. Perhaps what we could >> > do is take small portions of it and let individuals develop their own >> > oriental nation there. Starting with just basic descriptions at first, >> > looking at other peoples work on their areas and then working out the >> > interactions between the nations and there collective histories. The more >> > people we get the better it will become. > >The first step is too decide what culture to model it on. There is likely >no more a single, blanket, all-encompassing Mystaran "oriental" culture >than there is a single "oriental" culture on Earth. > >The Orient is a geographical location, not a point of cultural >delineation. My preference leans to Chinese, though Thai and Japanese >cultures also offer many interesting facets that could be incorporated. Maybe you mis-understood me. I did not mean one single country, but From ???@??? Thu Jul 25 15:03:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA02979; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:32:27 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA16597 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 21:00:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 21:00:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199607230200.VAA16597@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #173 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 6eb70a46e1b99a943c5aca102ed3deed rather a large oriental culture made up of several individual nations and covering a large area. All types of oriental culture could be placed in this setting, each one having its own nation(s). Sort of like how the known world is based on western culture, we'll base this area on eastern culture. Would you like to help with this? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 06:19:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... >> Now in the Hollow world boxed set the history of the Schattenalf >>goes as follows: >> >>3000 BC - Great Rain Of Fire, survivors (shadow elf ancestors ) >burrow underground. Subtly guided by Rafiel, they discover the miles high >caverns of the refuge of stone and build City Of Stars. >> >>1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, elves from Glantri discover City Of >Stars and are welcomed. They adopt the clan name of Schattenalf, which means >"Shadow Elf" in their elvish dialect. >> >>1500 BC - Expedition of Shadow elves reach Hollow World. Few return. >Atzanteotl reaches immortality. Atzanteotl begins corrupting schattenalf. >The Schattenalf turn from Rafiel to Atzanteotl. Two groups of schattenalf >leave the City Of Stars. >> >>1420 BC - First group of schattenalf reach a cavern near the surface >of the outer world and build Aengmor. >> >>1400 BC - Second group of schattenalf reach Hollow World and settle >there. >> >>1290 BC - Elves of Aengmor obliterated. >> >> Now this doesn't make any sense at all. Can anyone think aof some >>way of reconciling the two histories? Or some kind of explanation? This >>really baffles me, how could TSR get thins *SO* wrong? >> > >There is another timeline on this matter, that given in Gaz14 > >3000 BC - Great Rain of Fire > >1700 BC - Glantri cataclysm, survivor elves migrate underground. > >1650 BC - Atziann, one of the surviving elves, reaches the Azcan in the HW > >1500 BC - Atziann attains immortality as Atzanteotl > >1468 BC - Atruazin establish Mictlan > >1420 BC - Shattenalfen (the survivors of the Glantri cataclysm) begin to >follow Atzanteotl, destroy Mictlan and build Aengmorupon its ruins. > >1290 BC - Aengmor is destroyed by Atzanteotl. Shattenalfen descen deeper >underground. > >Maybe our sage Mister-Timeline Daniel Boese can give us a wise advice. >IMC I ignore the timeline given in the HW boxed set and I use instead the >one given in Gaz13, anyway it's really hard to believe that TSR went so wrong. >BTW: someone knows which of the two products was published first ? I think >Gaz13 was the first, but I'm not sure. Gaz 13 was first, but the Gaz14 timeline fits with the HW timeline. So which one do we use? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 06:20:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Shadow Elf Timelines... Your neighborhood unofficial Timeline keeper to the rescue... :) Taking >a look at your points, I see a few blunders by TSR: > a) The text history of the Shattenalfen in the Hollow World boxed set was >written before the Shadow Elves Gazetteer, and, basically, is very false. >It doesn't even fully correspond with the timeline in the front of the >book. > b) The temple of Atzanteotl the Schattenalfen find in 1420 BC is in the >Hollow World, but they build Aengmor on the outer world. I don't have an >especially good explanation for this, unless Atzanteotl moved his new >followers himself. They built Aengmor on top of Mictlan, which was an Azcan city, both Gaz13 and Gaz14 both agree with this. >Anyway, here's what I understand to be 'what really happened'. :) > >3000 BC: The Great Rain of Fire. The Blackmoor elves (ancestors of the > Shadow Elves, Schattenalfen, Icevale elves, Gentle Folk, and > Atzanteotl) are driven underground. Actually, the only descendents of the blackmoor elves are the Shadow elves and the elves of Wendar. The schattenalf, icevale and gentle folk elves are all descended from the southern elves that settled Glantri and fled the Glantri cataclysm. It states in several spots that the schattenalf stumbled upon the earlier blackmoor elves that fled underground after the great rain of fire, the pre-shadow elves accepted the schattenalf among them. >2200 BC: Elves (not the Blackmoor ones) settle in Glantri. >1950 BC: The Blackmoor elves settle in surface Glantri, and never > contact the other elves. >1700 BC: The Glantri Cataclysm. The Glantri elves are destroyed. The > Blackmoor elves once again go underground, splitting up into > individual clans. As I stated above the Glantri elves weren't destroyed. >1650 BC: Some elves reach the Hollow World, and become the Icevale elves > and the Gentle folk. Atziann, sole survivor of his clan, also > reaches the Hollow World. >1500 BC: Atziann becomes an Immortal, renaming himself Atzanteotl. He > begins whispering to various underground-Blackmoor elves > (especially the Schattenalfen), luring them away from their > faiths. >1420 BC: The Schattenalfen reach the Hollow World, then go back to the > outer world and build Aengmor. >1400 BC: Some (but not all) elves are driven from Aengmor, and settle in > the Hollow World. These are the modern-day Schattenalfen. >1352 BC: Aengmor is finished being built. >1290 BC: Atzanteotl sinks Aengmor. Many Schattenalfen escape, going > underground. >1104 BC: The ex-Aengmor Schattenalfen discover the Refuge of Stone, > convert to Rafiel, and become the Shadow Elves. > > BTW; what do you think of the possibility of various elves who found >their ways to other places on and in Mystara? Those underground tunnels go >/everywhere/... :) Could be possible, I guess it all depends on the will of the individual DM. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 08:06:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Barbarians for the Oriental setting At 01:38 PM 7/22/96 +-200, you wrote: >Hi again. > >Since I don't know so much about Chinese culture (I have no books and the library is on holiday), I'm going to write something about the "barbarians" who treatens our Oriental Country. > >Now, here are some general ideas, if you have something to add or you don't like something, let me know soon, before I start writing: > >Human barbarians are Mongol-like, great horsemens and really good with bow and arrows (I'll get some ideas from the GAZ about Ethengar). > >For half-ogre and others humanoid barbarians, I'm going to get many ideas from a tribe who really treatened China (I don't know their English name, in Italian is 'Unni', they are the ones who later came in Europe), and from others germanic tribes describes by Tacitus (Ok, that's not historically accurate, but I feel it's better like that...). I'll keep this on file too as well.... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 08:06:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting At 12:56 PM 7/22/96 +-200, you wrote: >People, I'm getting crazy.... The only Mystara map I have is the one which was included in the OD&D master set (in the Italian edition...) :-( >Please, can someone explain me where Skothar is? I suppose it is the continent which is in front of the east coast of Alphatia, where there is the Great Khan's Empire... right? Skothar is indeed that continent. >I've found Zyxl on this map, is the Tangor peninsula in front of Zyxl's west coast? Yes that is the Tangor peninsula. The mountain chain on it is called the Tangor chain. >Are the jennite steppes in the centre of Skothar? The jennite steppes are approx. areas 17 & the west of area 10 on the Masters map. >And Suma? And Davania? Davania is the large southern continent. I'm not too sure where Suma is. I'd have to dig up the article of Dragon with it in it. >I'm sorry if my questions are boring, but my ugly map isn't clear at all! Where can I get a better one? The Rules Cyclopedia. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 20:43:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Barbarians for the Oriental setting - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > From: Gabriele Ferri \ Internet: (fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > For half-ogre and others humanoid barbarians, I'm going to get many ideas from > a tribe who really treatened China (I don't know their English name, in Italian > is 'Unni', they are the ones who later came in Europe), > P.S. Should barbarians have any magic-user? - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Hello again, Perhaps 'Unni' is 'Hun?' As far as barbarians, I would recommend shamans and witch-doctors, rather than full magic-users. Shelby Michlin ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 20:43:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > From: Gabriele Ferri \ Internet: (fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > People, I'm getting crazy.... The only Mystara map I have is the one which was > included in the OD&D master set (in the Italian edition...) :-( > I'm sorry if my questions are boring, but my ugly map isn't clear at all! Where > can I get a better one? - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Hi Gabriele, I don't know what the Master Set map looks like, but I know there are good maps in the Hollow World boxed set. There are also a lot of maps in the Rules Cyclopedia. You could get both through the usenet newsgroup, rec.games .frp.marketplace. Alternatively, there are two good URL's I know of: http://www.dragontrove.com/ http://hawkwind.ncsa.uiuc.edu/titan/index.html You can probably get most of what you want from those three places. Good luck! Shelby Michlin ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 08:06:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting At 06:01 AM 7/22/96 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Jody Duncan wrote: > >> > The East Skothar location gives two obvious barbarian groups to work with: >> > The Jennites (roughly like Mongolians, perhaps a Great Wall keeps them out?) >> > and the Half-Ogres (I know very little on the subject, but could they be >> > made into approximations of the Manchu?) >> >> I think the demi-ogres should be oriental in culture, but I'm not >> too knowledgeable about oriental culture. Sounds good though. > >Hmm... A demi-ogre oriental culture? Brings to mind the Ogre-Magi from >AD&D. Not a bad place to look for ideas if this is what you had in mind. >Perhaps demi-ogres share the place with their full blooded kin- full >blooded and magic powerful kin. That's pretty much exactly what I had in mind. Sort of an oriental culture of demi-ogres ruled by Ogre magi... I don't have much more than that right now, but I'll work on it. I'm going to dig up the article in Dragon on this demi-ogre nation and find a location for this nation. What culture should I base this on? Feudal Japan? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #173 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 23 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 174 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 08:06:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another Shadow Elf comment... >>elves from the four clans that settled near Blackmoor went underground, but >>some remained. They endured the ice age and survived to the present day, >>becoming the elves of Wendar, they're even of the same clans as the Shadow >>Elves!! Why would they help the Alfheim elves instead of their long lost >>brethren? Very confusing... > >IIRC both Shadow Elves and Wendar elves settled near Blackmoor before the >Great Rain of Fire and both survived, though in two different ways (SE >underground, WE on the surface). Maybe they once were a single group, but >I'm not sure on this. >Anyway PWA2 says that "The elves from Wendar have all but forgotten this >early part of their history". >This explains why they helped the didn't helped the Shadow Elves. Moreover, >as someone other pointed out, AE and WE have similar lifestyles, living both >in the forest. Everything I've read states that there were only four clans in the elven colony near blackmoor. All four of these clans are represented in the shadow elves. If the elves of Wendar are descended from the elves of the same colony, they'd have to have the same clan names. This could be found out quite easily. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 08:06:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Other nations of Skothar At 03:18 AM 7/22/96 -0400, you wrote: >In addition to the Great Empire, the continent of Skothar contains many > >Nentsun Peninsula: Obviously, this region should be home to a culture >similar to that of the Inuit of North America or the natives of northern >Thonia: This region is settled by people of Antalian ancestry and has a >culture similar to that of the Heldanners with one important difference -- >their elite have access to caches of Blackmoor era artifacts, which they >Steppes of Jen: The details of this culture can be inferred from _Dawn of >Nentsun Plateau: The areas of this region visited by outsiders are inhabited >by hostile humanoids, mostly Bakemono, Oni, and Ogre Magi. However, >Jennite Sword: More hostile humanoids dominate this area. Here most of >Minaean Coast: These less civilized cousins of the Jennites who settled >Tangor: In the southern mountains live the descendants of the Tanagoro. >Zyxl: Since Haldemar says that this island was named after a female Hmmmm, these proposals are interesting, but maybe you should leave some space for other people to propose some cultures, we'd all like a chance at creating something for Mystara, and I believe we were looking for a more oriental setting, with other oriental cultures represented as well as China. I'll keep this on record as well. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 08:06:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Other nations of Skothar At 06:18 AM 7/22/96 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > >> In addition to the Great Empire, the continent of Skothar contains many >> cultures of interest. Like Brun, it has as neighbors many cultures that >> are in much closer proximity than their real world counterparts. Starting >> in the north, here are a few of the more interesting cultures: > >I like a lot of the ideas you have presented here... let me just post a >few of what I think may be interesting tidbits... > >> Thonia: This region is settled by people of Antalian ancestry and has a >> culture similar to that of the Heldanners with one important difference -- >> their elite have access to caches of Blackmoor era artifacts, which they >> use to launch wars of conquest. Fortunately for the rest of Mystara, they >> discovered the secret of spelljamming and decided to conquer other >> crystal spheres rather than waste their time subduing the barbarians of >> their own world. Of course, this is not good news for the rest of the >> multiverse. > >I like some of the barebones ideas you have here, but I don't like the >degree to which you have taken them (Just my opinion, no flame intended. :) >I would make this region still very barbaric- they are the ancestors of >the destroyed Thonian empire, (an empire done in by their own excesses!- >much like the Minaeans or, for a real world example Rome at its end). >They have since descended into savagery, forgetting their glorious past. >Occasional troves of Blackmoor era artifacts can be found and eventually >puzzled out, and such discoveries usually culminate in a mass attack >against the other regions of Skothar, though they are inevitably driven back. >I might make them similar to the Skandaharian peoples of the DA series, >but somewhat more barbaric. I like this, but let's not take out large chunks of land with just one culture, we need to leave room for everyone interested to get a chance at it. I'll keep this message as well.... >> Steppes of Jen: The details of this culture can be inferred from _Dawn of >> the Emperors_ and the Hollow World boxed set. Presumably, most of the >> surviving nomads are chauvinistic followers of Rathanos. > >I would probably (though this is still in debate in my mind) make the >Jennites descendants of the Peshwa nomads of the DA series, just to put >this in historical context. Leads one to wonder, though, where the >Afridhi people and their patron immortal Zugzul are, if any of their >descendants survived to the present day. Zugzul is probably still around under another name. Could their descendents be the Tanagoro people? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 08 Feb 1980 08:05:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire At 03:06 AM 7/22/96 -0400, you wrote: >After reviewing the scanty "official" material about Skothar, I have come to >realize that this continent just begs for further development. Referring to >Dragon #153, where the "Princess Ark" series begins, I see many place >names from the old Master's set given, along with commentary by Prince >Haldemar stating that all of it is wrong. However, he seems to overstate >his case -- at least one of the nations whose existence he rejected, Tangor, >actually exists on Mystara. > >I would suggest that he was equally mistaken about the "Empire of the >Great Khan" in central Skothar, which the Alphatians never explored >because they never got past the Jennites and Minaeans of the coastal >regions. This would be the perfect location for a culture based on that >of China. This "Great Empire" was originally settled by Jennite nomads >and was prey to attacks from them until they were weakened by a civil >war that destroyed many of the nomads and caused many others to be >transported to the Hollow World. If you want a "Great Wall" to exist, it is >certainly conceivable that they would have built one between the Empire >and the Steppes of Jen. > >Anyway, once the Jennites were out of the picture, the "Great Empire" >began its rise to greatness. Eventually they became so powerful that >their enemies -- the Jennite nomads to the northwest, the Minaean pirates >to the southwest, and the Nentsun humanoids of the surrounding mountains >-- wereforced to respect their borders. They built a single seaport next to >the Sea of Zamara and sent out trading expeditions all over the world but >avoided "barbaric, uncivilized" areas such as Alphatia, Bellisaria, the Isle >of Dawn, and the continent of Brun (in short, all of the "Known World"). > >For various reasons, they regarded the Alphatians and later Thyatians >as barbarians of the worst sort, and the sack of their seaport by the >Alphatians ca. 700 AC only confirmed this attitude -- as well as initiating >a period of isolationism from which the Great Empire has not yet emerged. >(For their part, the Alphatians thought that the seaport they sacked was a >Minaean pirate base.) > >The Great Empire is currently ruled by a gold dragon who assumes human >form on the few occasions when he must interact with his subjects. When- >ever the emperor dies, a new emperor is selected by the other dragons. >Each "dynasty" of emperors is actually the single reign of a particular >dragon. The character of the nation changes considerably depending on >what type of dragon the current emperor is -- for example, the Great Empire >was very militant and aggressive when its ruler was a red dragon. Once in >a while a human Mage pretending to be a dragon assumes power, but such >imposters are generally deposed after a brief but bloody civil war. I'm going to be saving all messages that contain an actual proposal on developing Skothar. This one I will save. I'm also trying to keep the e-mail addresses of those interested in developing an Oriental culture for Mystara. I'll keep this one. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 20:15:03 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Return of the Order of the Owl Greetings fellow Mystarans, Long, long ago, in a college far, far away, I wrote: >> Notice then that I basically skipped HWA1. I should also note that >> the PC cleric, actually a Hsaio named Okuwa, was a cleric of what he called >> the Order of the Owl, whose patron advocated Immortal nonintervention and a >> Mystara for Mystarans outlook. Unbeknownst to the cleric (and other PCs), >> the patron was actually Benekander/Rheddrian, and while the party had met >> Rheddrian and was working for him, none, not even Okuwa, knew that the Order >> of the Owl was really a cover for Benekander to raise a following while >> trying to stay unnoticed by other Immortals. I have a loooooong overdue post to make. At the time this was written, I was in the midst of finishing my B.A.s at Oberlin College, and have since had to deal with moving from there, having limited Internet access in Miami for a month, and finally moving into my apartment at UC San Diego, where I will be pursuing my Ph.D. in the fall, and establishing my ethernet connection. Yabba, yabba. So, again, my apologies for the extreme delay. There seemed to be some interest in the "Order of the Owl" I mentioned from my WotI campaign, i.e. Haavard Faanes wrote: >Anyway, i was intrigued by this "Order of the Owl".... >Have you developed that further? >Let us know.. and I want to go ahead and describe its conception and qualities, in case it can be of any use to you all. Please note this will be a long post. First let me elaborate how Okuwa became the Order's first cleric. The following presumes knowledge of WotI to an extent, but I don't think it will be too hard to follow without, and I'll be happy to fill in gaps. This is all set during WotI, not pre- nor post-. BIRTH OF OKUWA My players' party participated in the Phase I adventure of WotI, where they freed Benekander from the Mirror-Shield. At the time, Okuwa's player, Carl, was playing a mystic named Moridae. Moridae belonged to an unnamed cloister I placed in the mountains between Darokin and Karameikos, near Selenica and relatively close to the Duke's Road (King's Road post-WotI). Part of the cloister's ideology was a belief in reincarnation. Moridae believed that when all creatures died, they were reborn in another form, and that to _raise_ someone from the dead (once he learned it was possible) was in violation of the normal course of the universe (he used some term from Eastern religious thought that means something more spiritual than the astrophysical notions we get from the word "universe," but you get the point). While he was not going to impose his beliefs on others and object to their being _raised_, he asked that, should he die, they NOT take steps to have him resurrected. Moridae perished in battle at the hands of bandits on a dusty plain near the Blight Swamp, while in search of the Isle of Rosentos (see AC2 _Treasure of the Hideous One_, the mini-adventure that came with the OD&D DM's screen). The other party members, recalling his wishes, decided to go to Glantri and see whether they could pay to have him reincarnated, on the off-chance that he would "come back" as a human and be able to resume his life and membership in the party much as before. This was not at odds with Moridae's value system, because he believed that the _reincarnation_ spell did nothing but constrain the time and place of an otherwise natural and inevitable reincarnation to the "here and now" of the casting, and that the new form would be the same whether or not a spell was used. They took Moridae's severed hand to a marketplace in Glantri city, handed over a dozen cr (Glantrian crowns, worth 50 gp each), and watched with anticipation as the hired mage cast his spell. After levitating off of the ground and much metamorphosizing, Moridae's flesh burst in a cloud of giant feathers and from it flew a 4'-tall owl that promptly flew off to the south and east. The mage made his apologies, and one of the party members noted, fatalistically, "Well, that's the way he wanted it." I later held a one-on-one session with Carl, with whom I had designed Okuwa all along--the dice roll for the spell was a fake. We role-played Okuwa's gradually and incompletely receding amnesia as he flew off for a reason unknown to part of Alfheim, where he was contacted in a dream by Benekander, who did not reveal himself as such but rather claimed to be the head of the Order of the Owl. He explained that Moridae was fated to be reincarnated so soon so that he could become the first cleric of the Order and help save Mystara from the callous Immortals who were indescriminantly ruining the lives of mortals for some unknown purpose. Moridae, incidentally, seemed to Okuwa something of a cross between childhood memory and fictional character. The purpose of the Order of the Owl was to determine which Immortals were doing what, and why, so that they could petition them, subvert their plans, or do whatever it would take to keep Mystara a planet for Mystarans, and not a chessboard swarming with pawns in a game of Immortal frivolity... SYMBOL OF THE ORDER OF THE OWL The symbol for the Order of the Owl seems to be a somewhat angular crescent moon with a moon beam shining from partway down the convex side (it looks kind of like what you'd imagine a moon-wand to look like), and represents the vigilance of the order to the interference of Immortals on Mystara, as well as the general nocturnal theme suggested by the "Owl" aspect. (Note that this holy symbol is actually a crescent wrench, but that no one but Benekander/Rheddrian knows this. I decided that the beagle in a jumpsuit with a wrench (Benekander's symbol as written in WotI) is just too silly and so decided to use just the wrench as his symbol). WHY THE "ORDER OF THE OWL"? The reason why it is called the Order of the Owl is many-fold. From ???@??? Thu Jul 25 15:04:09 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA27916; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 06:17:13 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA20853 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:41:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:41:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199607231941.OAA20853@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #174 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 15c5c7b99d4c97a7c3dbcf9d1c4459e4 Firstly, it is meant to minimize attention to the Immortal patron, Benekander, who does not consider himself an Immortal. He remains unnamed and anonymous to his clerics and never makes clear his true nature nor whether he is the ultimate authority in the effort of the Order. All efforts are on behalf of the Order, not an Immortal patron of which to speak. Clerics always speak of the wishes, orders, and aims of the Order, not an Immortal. The clerics of the Order do not refer to themselves as "worshippers" or "servants," but rather as "agents," "members," or, to distinguish them from non-clerical supporters, simply as "clerics." This radically different approach to the Immortal-cleric bond is important to Benekander for several reasons. Firstly, Benekander wants to remain low-key to the other Immortals, and so wants to swerve attention away from a parton Immortal or other central figure. For that matter, he does not even consider himself an Immortal, even if he has the powers and attributes of one. Remember that he has never interacted with Immortals in a close manner and doesn't necessarily know that he conforms to the definition of an Immortal, besides of which, having the attributes of one is not what he considers the critical factor. He is more concerned with the role they play on Mystara, and wishes not to be a part of that game. Benekander believes that some if not all of the Immortals are interfering where they shouldn't, that they are egotistical and oppressive, and have little regard for mortal life. The last thing he wants is for his followers to worship him as an Immortal. He prefers to think of himself as the organizer of an effort who is at the helm simply because he has been gifted with powers that make him suitable to the task. WHY OKUWA? Those of you who own WotI will recall that there are suggestions made for your party's interactions with Benekander/Rheddrian if one of their number is one of his clerics. I don't see how one could normally begin as a cleric of him, especially since he doesn't become an Immortal until the party frees him from the mirror (or at least does not realize powers as such). In my campaign, Benekander was keeping a close eye on the party, since they were the ones who released him. When he decided that there was a problem that needed to be solved, he first thought of how the heroes that released him might be able to help. When Moridae died, Benekander, knowing about the mystic's world-view and beliefs in reincarnation, decided that it would be useful and fair to intervene in the rebirth of Moridae and make him his first 'agent.' Aside from the reasons between DM and player, there were character reasons that made Moridae a good candidate, so that it should not be assumed that Benekander took advantage of Moridae/Okuwa. If anyone wants to know more about those dynamics and why Okuwa was made a Hsaio (see PC1 _Tall Tales of the Wee Folk_), I can post them separately. In any case, Benekander felt he could trust and rely on the party, so that it would be an ideal group for his new cleric to be a part of as he trained him to become a missionary for Immortal non-intervention and for him to gain experience investigating such interventions. Okuwa was reunited with the group and later loaned the Staff of Rheddrian and with it he served as Benekander's link to the Hollow World (see Phase II of WotI). In my campaign, I used the second two-thirds of the Blood Brethen Trilogy, but with Benekander being the Immortal captured by Thanatos and without the other Immortals being involved (see my earlier post from way back). When Irila Kaze was defeated and the party was ready to return to the outer world, Okuwa stayed behind in the Hollow World to spread the faith where it had withered before even blossoming during Benekander's incarceration. WHY WOULD ANYONE IN THE HOLLOW WORLD WANT TO LISTEN TO THE NON-INTERVENTION MESSAGE? Bob Kaelin wrote: >This just hit me. Would Benekander, and his non-intervention message, >really be that popular a belief in the Hollow World? > >Ixion: "Fine, they don't want us we'll just take our sun and go home." > >Alphatia, now a floating island, slamming into the ground at 3 or 4 hundred >miles an hour. What do you think it is, a Chinese satilite or something? > >Shrug, just a thought. The Hollow World wouldn't exist without the >Immortals. Am I wrong? (wouldn't be the first time) I can see it on the >surface world, where life occured somewhat normally, but in the Immortals >own little terarium it's kinda wierd. Remember that the mortals placed in the "terarium" had no choice in the matter. According to WotI and more especially the Blood Brethen Trilogy, many people in the Hollow World are very distraught with their treatment by the Immortals, even if they are not aware of the museum-like reasons for their lives. Perhaps the most poignant reflection of this is in the words of Clerias, Colima's fisherman-turned-guard-on-the-beach: "A dog's life, I say," says Clerias, and Dael truthfully agrees. "Work your nets, or hoe your fields, or carve stone, just to feed a bunch of rabble pirates. And then your patron entities, the ones who're supposed to look out for you, right?--They just let you fall long enough to get really miserable, and then, when you're right at the fingernail's-edge and ready to throw it all in, _then_ they protect you. Not before, oh no. "A dog's life, did I say? Nay, I would not treat a dog so badly, letting him get good and starved before I take him in, no" (HWA2, p. 12). This sentiment is supposed to be common in "beleaguered villages throughout the Hollow World, who show such bitterness at their perpetual oppression." The Spell of Preservation allows peoples to be all but annihaleted before kicking in and protecting just long enough for them to recoup for another beating by neighbors or the elements, what have you. Benekander sees the HW as a place that suffers tremendously (perhaps more even than the outer world, which is what originally got him going!) and that could benefit greatly from the activity of the Order of the Owl. Thus, while the role of Order agents is to investigate Immortal interference and to make people question their devotion to such callous beings in both the inner and outer worlds, work with the HW is more heavily directed toward giving people a source of hope and an alternative focus for their spirituality, namely to the planet and its inhabitants, not the "patron entities." WHAT I CAN REMEMBER ABOUT ORDER OF THE OWL SPELLS I had a spell list for Okuwa but don't have it with me. If people are interested enough, I can have it sent to me from Florida since I'm having other things sent anyway (just might take awhile). I based it on the OD&D cleric spell list but made some modifications. I know that I tried to incorporate aspects vaguely akin to the the aliens and their technology from the Blackmoor era (of which Benekander is a specimen) to it. For example, clerics of the Order cannot dispel magic, and have a reduced ability to detect it, since the alien magic (see the DA series and WotI) is only partly compatible with that native to Mystara. By the same token, Order clerics get the equivalent of minor globe of invulnerability and spell immunity as spells at certain levels to reflect the beneficient side to this incompatibility. As a funky thing, all Order spells that have continuous durations affecting a being would result in a faint greenish glow that was detectable (or not detectable) on that person, in precisely the same way as lightning zombies glow (see WotI). That reminds me, Order owls can animate dead, but all of the dead they animate are lightning zombies. The theme of this glow extends to their having an equivalent of a faerie fire spell (called Luminescence) and protection from normal missles (c.f. Rheddrian's Staff). OTHER STUFF I didn't detail the Order completely when I incorporated it into my campaign. A lot of it was done as we went along. I'm more than happy to try and refine it, so if anyone has questions feel free to ask and, of course, I'd love to hear suggestions or criticisms. Thanks, Azure /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: remoore@nando.net Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:38:27 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Oriental Setting As much as I like the idea of a mass designing project (and would like to help out if I can), I really feel that the Myoshiman moon has been overlooked. The Japanese-reminiscent culture of the Rakastas here has great potential for campaign development. It wouldn't have any contact with the rest of the KW (unless space travel were developed or Haldemar started visiting more frequently) but it would be great to have a singular planet of sorts that is independant. There are apparently some Heldannics left over who are less than happy with the living conditions; there's likely to be clan wars; and you can always conme up with exotic new monsters based on Orietal mythology, like the killing ghost that was on Poltergeist last week (Don't know how to spell the name; Qwi?) My two coppers, MJ ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Church of Karameikos. On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Gerry Kevin Wilson wrote: > Just curious as to how any of you run this imported church that feels WAY > too Catholic for coincidence. What gods do its clerics worship? I know > that the church is more of a philosophy and that no gods are listed, but > those clerics must be getting spells from somewhere. Do you just allow > any immortal? Only lawful immortals? Do you have an elite list of > immortals for CoK clerics to choose from? Sorry, I'm trying to get my > first Known World campaign put together for my OD&D group, and I keep > running into little nagging things like this. I've looked over the > immortal list from Wrath of the Immortals, but none of them seem > particularly Thyatian to me. Personally, I consider most of the clerics of the Church to be Lawful or Neutral philosophers. Their spells come mainly from their belief in their philosophy. In the OD&D Basic Set (and in the Cyclopedia, I believe), there was a short discussion about how clerics didn't have to worship deities (later Immortals) and could instead simply be clerics of Law, clerics of Chaos or clerics of Neutrality. In my campaign, clerics of the Church can be followers of pretty much any Lawful or Neutral Immortal if they choose as long as the tenents of that Immortal don't conflict with the philosophy of the Church. Conversely, a cleric can choose not to follow any Immortal and instead simply follow the philosophy of the Church and of his/her alignment. Spells for those clerics who choose not to follow Immortals would come from innate belief in her philosophy or from some "universal manifestation" of Law, Chaos, Neutrality or whatever. (There is precedent for all of this, BTW. I referred to the OD&D Basic set and Cyclopedia above, but for AD&D fans the Complete Book of Priests talks about Priests who follow philosophies instead of deities. Also, in the Kingdom of Karameikos boxed set there is a kit for a Philosopher priest, presumably based on the old OD&D Alignment based clerics. Those who do play AD&D have an easy rationale for where the spells come from. Clerical spells for priests of a specific alignment/philosophy would come from the Outer Plane aligned to that specific alignment. In other words, good priests of Law would get their spells from the plane of Mount Celestia [or another good, lawful plane] while evil priests of Chaos would get their spells from the Abyss [or another evil, chaotic plane]. That's what I've chosen to do for philosopher-priests in my campaign.) Just my $1.25, Jeremy Morris (lurker at large) ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:45:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting On Fri, 8 Feb 1980, Joe Duncan wrote: > >And Suma? And Davania? > Suma'a and Gombar, the two homes of the demi-ogre races mentioned elsewhere in this thread, are both located on the western side of the Arm of the Immortals, on the coast next to that huge mountain chain. Suma'a is more of a religious/clericy than Gombar, which is a merchant realm (unless I have the two confused...) The Ee'ar and those winged minotaurs (whatever they're called) are located smack dab in the middle of the mountain chain that runs down the length of the arm of the Immortals (I think it's called the Immortals Shield). ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:47:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Other nations of Skothar On Fri, 8 Feb 1980, Joe Duncan wrote: > >I would probably (though this is still in debate in my mind) make the > >Jennites descendants of the Peshwa nomads of the DA series, just to put > >this in historical context. Leads one to wonder, though, where the > >Afridhi people and their patron immortal Zugzul are, if any of their > >descendants survived to the present day. > > Zugzul is probably still around under another name. Could their > descendents be the Tanagoro people? Hmm... could be, could be. I have been thinking that the descendants of the Thonians could very well be the Yannifey peoples that formerly populated Alphatia, before being driven off to those tiny islands by the encroaching hordes of migrating Alphatians, as well. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting > I read a post about the Great Wall...Maybe this wall could be below earth > to prevent invasion from the Mystara underdark, such as deep gnolls (i'm > really fond of gnolls, don't ask me why...). Just imagine hordes of gnolls > running in tunnels attacked by groups of 'tunnel rats'. Imagine a land of > pleasure and delicacy below which rages a bloody war... I like this idea alot. The wall should definatly be something intersting. It might not even have to be that effective just have to be very, very intimating. > consorts about Dreamlands, and reseeing the Baby Carts and the Chinese > Ghost Stories movie to get inspiration. What is Baby Carts? I personally don't like Chinese Ghost Stories that much. It is a bit like watching Hercules TV series now, keep feeling like they totally mess up on the mythology. > About the war below earth, do you know why some chinese generals were > burried with statues of their soldiers...Because they weren't staues but > real soldiers who were petrificated while guarding the body of their > prince. This is gnoll magic ! As far as I can remember, only emperors buried with the stone statues. In a fantasy realm, those statues should definately have some real power. BTW, a bit earlier in Chinese history, living people was buried with the emperor. They probably will became undead guardian after a while. Now I think a bit more, I think nobles and any one wealthy probably have stone statues buried with them, just not nearly to the extent of the emperors. > P.S : some time ago I said I would post something about the medieval France > for Averoigne, are you still interested ? Please do so. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #174 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 23 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 175 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:06:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting I would like to apologize first for making multiple posts coming up soon. I have yet figured out is there anyway to reply multiple letters with my mailer. Hopfully Jody's mailing list could be set up soon, and we don't have to flood this list with messages that might not be of intereste to everyone. > The East Skothar location gives two obvious barbarian groups to work with: > The Jennites (roughly like Mongolians, perhaps a Great Wall keeps them out?) > and the Half-Ogres (I know very little on the subject, but could they be > made into approximations of the Manchu?) The idea of just a big stone wall seems to be a bit unoriginal. I really like another poster comment about a underground wall. Or we go even farthor. How about a wall of fire, or ice, or lightning? Or maybe a 5 mile wide zone of impenetrable darkness, making coordinate movement of large troop through the area almost impossible. The China equivlent should have pretty high magical power that it can use, and probably have quite a few artifact that has been passed down from long time ago. > >itself are generally very egocentric. Some of the names that have > >been used are Middle Kingdom, God Continant, Central Prime, > >Middle Plain, etc. How about a transliteration of one of those > >name? Such as Chung-Kuo, Shen-Cho, Chung-Eun, etc? > > I completely agree with the avoidance of real-world names; I simply use them > for convenience at this point. Which version of Chinese (language system) > are these names? (I like them) I only speak mandarin. Of the three names I listed above, I prefer Chung- Eun a bit more because Chung-Kuo are still been used and Shen-Cho (continent of god) might run into some coufusion with the God/immortal stuff even though the god been used there is probably just an adjective to describe how grand the place is. Feel free to suggest some other nice sounding combination of words for the name of the place, and I'll try to translate it to see how good it sounds. For now I suggest the notation of MChina for the "China" we going to develop in Mystara, and Mwhatever, for other countries/cultures. This way we can easily keep track which place we are talking about and keep it seperate from the real world cultures. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > I would suggest that he was equally mistaken about the "Empire of the > Great Khan" in central Skothar, which the Alphatians never explored > because they never got past the Jennites and Minaeans of the coastal > regions. This would be the perfect location for a culture based on that > of China. This "Great Empire" was originally settled by Jennite nomads > and was prey to attacks from them until they were weakened by a civil > war that destroyed many of the nomads and caused many others to be > transported to the Hollow World. If you want a "Great Wall" to exist, it is > certainly conceivable that they would have built one between the Empire > and the Steppes of Jen. The name Khan is a Mongolian term, not Chinese. BTW, I point these things out just to let people know, does not mean I'm againest the idea. This could be a mistranslation by the Known World explorer, for example. > > Anyway, once the Jennites were out of the picture, the "Great Empire" > began its rise to greatness. Eventually they became so powerful that > their enemies -- the Jennite nomads to the northwest, the Minaean pirates > to the southwest, and the Nentsun humanoids of the surrounding mountains > -- wereforced to respect their borders. They built a single seaport next to > the Sea of Zamara and sent out trading expeditions all over the world but > avoided "barbaric, uncivilized" areas such as Alphatia, Bellisaria, the Isle > of Dawn, and the continent of Brun (in short, all of the "Known World"). One possible explanation that MChina never made contact with the Known World. China never developed a strong navy, and through out its history, there was only one famous navigator/explorer. This is probably due to Chinese belief that the dead's body has to be buried in its homeland or the sprite will not able to rest. Therefore Chinese never like to go out to the sea where an accident could cause the body to be lost in the bottom of the ocean, where it going to be nibbled at by the sea lifes, which is also a very bad thing (Chinese like to be buried with a "full body" so beheading is a much worse punishment than hanging, for example). And since there are no overland route to the Known World (I'm not exactly sure about this as I have no Mystara stuff with me at the school), MChina never made contact with KW nations, with maybe the exception of a few very brave adventurers. > > For various reasons, they regarded the Alphatians and later Thyatians > as barbarians of the worst sort, and the sack of their seaport by the > Alphatians ca. 700 AC only confirmed this attitude -- as well as initiating > a period of isolationism from which the Great Empire has not yet emerged. > (For their part, the Alphatians thought that the seaport they sacked was a > Minaean pirate base.) Due to Chinese xenophobic and egocentric attitude, they pretty much call every body else barbarians. It will be interesting to put a few "barbarians" nations close to MChina that is actually more advanced than MChina. Even more so if it is a humanoid nation, perhaps the demi-ogres? BTW, can some one relay me some info regarding to the demi-ogres, I don't remember reading about them, nor could I very easily go look them up at this time. > The Great Empire is currently ruled by a gold dragon who assumes human > form on the few occasions when he must interact with his subjects. When- > ever the emperor dies, a new emperor is selected by the other dragons. > Each "dynasty" of emperors is actually the single reign of a particular > dragon. The character of the nation changes considerably depending on > what type of dragon the current emperor is -- for example, the Great Empire > was very militant and aggressive when its ruler was a red dragon. Once in > a while a human Mage pretending to be a dragon assumes power, but such > imposters are generally deposed after a brief but bloody civil war. Neat! Put a new spin on Chinese belief that their emperors are incarnations of dragons. BTW, please be aware that Chinese dragon are very different from the western dragons. The "bad" dragon in Chinese myth are the blue dragon (what is a good color word for light sky blue? Azure?) and he might be unique. Actually since Chinese believe that many of the important and special people in its history are incarnation of heavenly beast or star magistrates, perhaps most of the nobles and upper class people are actually magical beings. Only the commoners are human. I will think about this a bit and see if I can tie all this up into something. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental Setting Well, one thing I don't like about developing the moon is that it is too isolated from Mystara. There are just too little interaction between them as of now. Btw, Qwi is just ghost. Could be good, bad, beautiful, ugly, whatever. remoore@nando.net pontificated: > > As much as I like the idea of a mass designing project (and would like > to help out if I can), I really feel that the Myoshiman moon has been overlooked. > The Japanese-reminiscent culture of the Rakastas here has great potential for > campaign development. It wouldn't have any contact with the rest of the KW (unless > space travel were developed or Haldemar started visiting more frequently) but it > would be great to have a singular planet of sorts that is independant. There are > apparently some Heldannics left over who are less than happy with the living > conditions; there's likely to be clan wars; and you can always conme up with exotic > new monsters based on Orietal mythology, like the killing ghost that was on Poltergeist > last week (Don't know how to spell the name; Qwi?) > > My two coppers, > MJ > - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:16:56 +0000 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental culture (was: Mages) > I did not mean one single country, but >rather a large oriental culture made up of several individual nations and >covering a large area. All types of oriental culture could be placed in >this setting, each one having its own nation(s). Sort of like how the known >world is based on western culture, we'll base this area on eastern culture. This is exactly what we should do in developing an Oriental Mystara. Comparing maps of Mystara and Earth show that Eastern Skothar would be ideal with a few minor adjustments. The map of Mystara shows that the designers were not too concerned with making the terrain features exactly match those of the more detailed maps of the known world, so we can also take some liberties with the terrain of Skothar. The biggest problem that I have seen regarding location is the suggested sites for a Japanese culture. Zyxl is between 5 and 15 degrees north latitude, and most of the point of the Tangor Peninsula lies south of the northern tropic. Real-world Japan is between 30 and 45 degrees north; this area is more similar to the Philippines. i'm not saying that we can't locate a Japanese culture here, but the climate should be taken into consideration. Since there seems to be greatest interest in China, perhaps we should start with a Chinese culture, I suggest the north and west shores of Tangor Bay. I personally would like to see this developed, as well as a culture in the jungles south and southwest of Tangor Bay based on Indochina. What sort of underwater culture would fit into an Oriental campaign? I confess I know almost nothing about Asian mythology.It seems that one major step that would hepl us is if someone could figure out how to get even a rough map of this area online. Does anyone have access to a scanner? I felt that an Oriental setting would require a religion similar to Buddhism. Please look at the Immortal Rahindartha in my next post and reply with your comments. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:17:06 +0000 Subject: [Mystara] New Oriental Immortal Name: Rohindartha Aka: The Enlightened One Sphere: Thought Alignment: Neutral (of neutral-good in AD&D) Immortal Rank: Eternal Immortal Level: 29 Abilities: Str- 42 Int- 45 Wis- 68 Dex- 44 Con- 47 Cha- 40 Permanent Power: 9,500 Saving Throws: Spell Attacks- 7, Physical Attacks-3, Mental Attacks- 6, Power Attacks- 5 AC: -21, THAC0: *6 (misses only on natural 1, add 6 to damage roll) Hit Dice: 43 Hit Points: 700, # Attacks: 4, Punch Damage: 4d6 Anti-magic: 80% Special Abilities: Aura- affects up to 23 mortals (vampires, dragons, etc. ARE affected) with terror, paralysis, or charm. Magic- Any clerical, magical, or druidic spell any number of times per day, + immortal magic Regeneration- 1d4 hp per day if active, 1d8 per day at rest Communication with any living being, all air-related non-living things Rapid travel, special defense against non-magical weapons and poison, protection from magic, infravision, creation of any items, and about anything else that you can think of. Powers: Turn Undead ( as a 36th level Cleric), Mystic Special Abilities (acrobatics, awareness, heal self, mind block, blankout, gentle touch as 16th level mystic) Description: Rohindartha is rather small for an immortal, though he's a little over average human size. He has black hair and brown eyes, and varies his appearance subtly to match those he is dealing with. Personality: Rohindartha was a Prince of some distant civilization (Sind, shortly after its peak). His worship has disappeared from that country, but was brought to the Orient by missionaries centuries ago. He gave up everything he had to seek the *Middle Path*, not succumbing to the temptation of luxury, yet also avoiding the extreme tortures of self-deprivation in seaking enlightenment. He was an epic hero who ventured far and wide in search of enlightenment. There are many vague stories about From ???@??? Thu Jul 25 15:04:15 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA12235; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:37:16 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA23581 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:21:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:21:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199607240321.WAA23581@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #175 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: b668c812dbf1e5285b23fb635c4ffbe5 his life, though none are very specific. His patron was Alphatia, and he has remained on good terms with her and Koryis, whose interests he shares. One of his long term goals was to civilize the Minaeans so that the areas where he was worshipped could trade and interact freely with the Alphatians, but that goal may fade with the disappearance of Alphatia. He is dedicated to raising mortals up above the suffering of mortal life through enlightenment. He detests all undead as trapping a spirit indefinately in the realm of suffering. Rohindartha is dedicated to bringing goodness through extreme nonviolence (except towards undead), but, because laws so frequently interfere with genuine goodness and he feels no tie to any law but goodness, his alignment is given as neutral. Rahindartha does not believe that he is fully enlightened, and is one of the few immortals actively seeking the secret of the Old Ones, although he is only an Eternal. He and Khoronus are friends and research partners. Rohindartha considers every immortal of the sphere of entropy to be his personal enemy, with the notable exception of Hel, whose emnity is merely professional in nature. Rohindartha's nature is one of absolute goodness and pacifism. Philosophy: Rohindartha's followers are divided into two major denominations. The Elders' Path is a "monotheistic" philosophy which is devoted to the quest for enlightenment through following the way of the Enlightened One; it demands a more active role on the part of believers, and stresses extreme tolerance and pacifism. The Greater Path is the philosophy in which adherents believe that they are helped along the way to enlightenment by those who have already become enlightened (including several other immortals, some immortals sposored by Rohindartha, several titans, and a number of heroes of the past or simply fictional ones); this is a slightly less spiritual, less austere philosophy which is better suited to normal life. Both philosophies stress pacifism, goodness, respect for elders, and most of all, the quest for enlightenment. Many orders of Mystics follow Rohindara, along with the clerics. His clerics are made up mainly of monks, though nuns and gurus also exist. They devote their lives to doing good and seeking enlightenment. Clerics receive "Deanimate" rather than "Animate Dead". This spell alters an undead to it's state before animation, thus freeing the spirit from the undead. This only works on monsters animated by a spell. Clerics may wear no armor, although they can use a shiels and their increased presence of mind gives them a -3 bonus on armor class, plus an additional -1 bonus every 4 levels after first. Rohindara's clerics radiate such an aura of peace that living creatures are less likely to attack them (+1 or +2 bonus on initial reaction rolls, or such), unless the creature recognizes the cleric as a personal enemy. DMs should award experience for monsters that the clerics avoid fighting, as well as role-laying bonuses for pacifism if they are deserved. This is my basic idea for a major religion of the Orient. Please reply with your impressions of it. Thanks! ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 19:54:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Oriental Immortal - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > From: Patrick \ Internet: > (dennis.sullivan.family@worldnet.att.net) > Subject: [Mystara] New Oriental Immortal > Name: Rohindartha > Aka: The Enlightened One > This is my basic idea for a major religion of the Orient. Please reply with > your impressions of it. Thanks! - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Seems nicely done. I can't comment on the stats etc, as I'm not familiar with Immortals rules. He does seem to have rather impressive powers though; too impressive? Also, I'm not sure that I see the rationale for the link to undead, specifically the emphasis on "de-animating" and releasing the spirit . Wouldn't this be that spirit's karma? In any case, certainly a usable fictional stand-in for the Buddha. Shelby ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 20:45:22 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Joe Duncan writes: > > >> However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If > >> there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, > >> it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create > >> our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. > > Would you care to help with this? I'd be happy to help. Let me know if there will be a meeting. > > It seems there are quite a few Mystara fans at Carleton, perhaps we > could arange a meeting in the fall sometime? Great! How about one of the first weekends after class starts - we could get a whole horde together to collaborate data. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:36:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Other nations of Skothar In a message dated 96-07-22 22:17:35 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << Zugzul is probably still around under another name. Could their descendents be the Tanagoro people? >> If Zugzul seems to be based on some African culture, then the Tanagoro would definitely be their descendants. ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 21:21:50 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another Shadow Elf comment... Joe Duncan writes: > > One thing that I find kind of strange is why the elves of Alfheim > would seek refuge in Wendar. The wendarian elves are the closest relatives > of the shadow elves on Mystara. After the Great Rain Of Fire most of the > elves from the four clans that settled near Blackmoor went underground, but > some remained. They endured the ice age and survived to the present day, > becoming the elves of Wendar, they're even of the same clans as the Shadow > Elves!! Why would they help the Alfheim elves instead of their long lost > brethren? Very confusing... Interesting. Do you happen to know of any source that states that the elves of Wendar are in fact of the same four lost clans as those of the Shadowelves? I have considerable literature, but I was just wondering if you could direct me to the appropriate source. Perhaps the Wendarian elves, if they have all but forgotten their history, as the PWA says, are unaware of their connection to the Shadowelves, and thus feel more kinship with the elves of Alfheim. Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:34:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire In a message dated 96-07-23 16:30:50 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << The name Khan is a Mongolian term, not Chinese. BTW, I point these things out just to let people know, does not mean I'm againest the idea. This could be a mistranslation by the Known World explorer, for example. >> You confirmed my suspicions there -- when I see the title "Khan", I find myself thinking of Genghis and Kublai. That is why there was only a single reference to "Empire of the Great Khan" -- that is the term given on the old Master's map, and you have given good reasons that it should be regarded as inaccurate. In fact, I suspect that "Empire of the Great One" might be a more suitable name for the country, given their reverence for Dragons and thus for "the Great One" -- the chief dragon Immortal. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:36:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting In a message dated 96-07-22 10:12:49 EDT, jsmill@IMAP1.ASU.EDU (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: << Hmm... A demi-ogre oriental culture? Brings to mind the Ogre-Magi from AD&D. Not a bad place to look for ideas if this is what you had in mind. Perhaps demi-ogres share the place with their full blooded kin- full blooded and magic powerful kin. >> Between the Jennites and the Demi-Ogres, I would consider the Jennites as better candidates for being "barbarians". The Demi-Ogres are described in Dragon #200 as follows: "The two nations on the other side of the Great Immortal's Shield have been settled by a race of civilized demi-ogres (mixed human Tanagoro blood) from Tangor. Their kingdoms are made up of merchant-principalities more interested in sea trade than overland exploration. They know of the strait between the southern end of the Arm of the Immortals and Davania that leads to the Western Sea. They haven't settled it because they think only savage nations exist beyond." Hmmm.... it seems that none of the peoples of Skothar think much of Brun. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:35:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental culture (was: Mages) In a message dated 96-07-22 20:10:02 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << It's not really that hard. I'll try to help out with this, but I'm not sure how much time I'll have, it might take awhile. How about we start by choosing an area in eastern Skothar where we'll create the first nation... Pick a place. >> That "Empire of the Great Khan" on the old Master's map seems like a natural place to start. I would picture it as the most advanced nation on the continent, but one that has had little contact with the rest of the world for several centuries. Since it covers a huge area, you could easily use the Chinese empire of the Ming dynasty period as a model for it (from reading a brief summary of Chinese history, this period seems the most appropriate -- China begins that era as a seafaring power that withdraws into itself and ends that era with ever increasing influence by European explorers). The biggest difference that I would see is that this empire is almost completely landlocked -- if it had a substantial coast, the Alphatians would not be so completely ignorant of it. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:36:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Other nations of Skothar In a message dated 96-07-22 22:17:35 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << I like this, but let's not take out large chunks of land with just one culture, we need to leave room for everyone interested to get a chance at it. I'll keep this message as well.... >> I would definitely agree with that part. I hardly meant to suggest that the different cultures I proposed were organized into exactly that many nations - -- in fact, only the "Great Empire" would actually be unified politically, and even it might come apart between the death of one dragon ruler and the accession of another. I would certainly envision the Thonians, Jennites, Minaeans, Tanagoro, and Nentsun humanoids as being split up into a very large number of competing political entities. Different groups are likely to be dominant in different areas, but small enclaves of other named groups (or of others not yet named) would certainly exist as well. To give you an idea of the scale I was working on in describing Skothar, the equivalent summary for the Known World would be a description of Darokin alone. Obviously, I have left out a LOT of stuff! ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:36:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting In a message dated 96-07-23 16:04:48 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << The idea of just a big stone wall seems to be a bit unoriginal. I really like another poster comment about a underground wall. Or we go even farthor. How about a wall of fire, or ice, or lightning? Or maybe a 5 mile wide zone of impenetrable darkness, making coordinate movement of large troop through the area almost impossible. The China equivlent should have pretty high magical power that it can use, and probably have quite a few artifact that has been passed down from long time ago.>> I agree that a stone wall would not be particularly suitable -- I just mentioned in case somebody considered it an essential part of Chinese culture. One problem with such a wall is that the Alphatians would know about it -- and start to wonder about the other side. But suppose we reverse this wall into a huge ditch that is enchanted with powerful mind-affecting spells (that's right, I'm stealing from the "Xanth" series now). Any invader who fails a saving throw while passing through this region forgets why he came in the first place. Or perhaps anyone who approaches the wall from the northwest is geased to turn around, forget about the wall/ditch, and return the way he came. Either way, the Alphatians would eventually figure out that there is something very peculiar about this region. Unfortunately, they would most likely have made this discovery ca. 1003 AC, and subsequent events would have quite effectively distracted them from investigating further for at least a decade. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #175 ***************************** mystara-digest Thursday, 25 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 176 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 20:30:24 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire At 02:51 PM 7/23/96 -0400, you wrote: >The "bad" dragon in Chinese myth are the blue >dragon (what is a good color word for light sky blue? Azure?) Wha? Hmm? Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking to me. :) /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 1:17:11 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages Geoff Gander writes: > > It seems there are quite a few Mystara fans at Carleton, perhaps we > > could arange a meeting in the fall sometime? > > Great! How about one of the first weekends after class starts - we > could get a whole horde together to collaborate data. Sounds cool. Once term starts in the fall, lets arrange a date and get together. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:57:04 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting > > >itself are generally very egocentric. Some of the names that have > > >been used are Middle Kingdom, God Continant, Central Prime, > > >Middle Plain, etc. How about a transliteration of one of those > > >name? Such as Chung-Kuo, Shen-Cho, Chung-Eun, etc? Central Prime, yeah! :) 'And my son, so as there are many planes of excistence, and as the one we live in is the central one of them, the plane of Prime-material, just as well is our divine and eternal country in the exact center of the Prime plane and so we can call it Central Prime. We are truly in the true heart and center of the multiverse, and in the exact point, in the exact centre of the Multiverse, Universe and Prime is the Seat of our Emperor, the Dragon.' Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:06:31 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] Humanoid barbarians for Oriental setting Hi, I'm still working on barbarians for MChina.=20 Here are more infos about humanoid barbarians (see also my earlier = messages): There are many different tribal groups; Most common humanoids are goblins, trolls, kobolds and hobgoblins. Those = tribes are slaves of other more developed humanoid-civilizations = (Ogre-magi, half-orc, half-ogre, rakasta) who could be really dangerous = for MChina, if they were united by a strong leader. By now they haven't = a common leader, so they use only 50% of they militar power for attack = MChina, but maybe in futur....; I imagine this barbarians like those who treatened (and eventually = destroyed) the Roman Empire. They are nomads, they travel in caravans = and they've never founded a settlement bigger than a village. Even their = villages are frequently abandoned because they aren't good in = agricolture (they think that agricolture is inferior and let only = captured humans practice it) and, so, they don't get enough food from = the land. In fact they prefer hunting animals or attacking isolated = villages to get food, hardware and even slaves. Many tribes have some = sheep, yaks and horses.; Each tribe is composed by 15/50 members (males and females), plus about = 3 slaves for every important member (there are 3/10 important members in = every tribe). Social and political influence is often ereditary or is also gained with = experience and age.; About 5 tribes together form a horde. Those 5 tribes are formed by = slaves-humanoids (goblins, trolls, kobolds or hobgoblins). Please note = that there often is a slave-humanoid race who is dominant between the = other slave-races in the horde. Humanoids who belong to other races than = the dominant one are often killed during skirmishes caused by racial = hate. Every horde is ruled by a another group of humanoids who is = superior for intellect, strenght or magic (ogre-magi, half-orc, = half-ogre or rakasta). The ruling humanoids may not belong all at the = same race. The ruling group's uncooperative and evil tendeces don't let = the hordes cooperate unless their survival itself is in danger. The = rulers think of their slaves as animals; they don't hesitate to kill = them if they want to rebell (they remind what happened centuries ago, = when a slave-rebellion and a MChinese offensive put in serious danger = their ancestors' lifes).; Slave-humanoids wear animal furs, and in war, they put grass and leaves = on them to increase stealth, and draw symbols on their faces and bodys = to incute fear. Note that some furs (especially the ones from yaks) = offer the same protection of a leather armour. Sometimes they have = wooden shields decorated whith paintings of animals or geometrical = patterns. Slave-races can make some primitive weapons like bows, staffs, = maces; but they can also have some rusty short swords or daggers stolen = in their raids (if they are lucky enough to hide them, because robbery = is frequent even in the horde). Ruling-humanoids instead have steel = weapons stolen in the raids (note that barbarians don't know how to make = them) or, at least, some very well made, very beatyful, and maybe even = enchanted by a shaman, primitive weapon. They often have artistic wooden = shields and leather armours (sometimes they put some wood or bronze on = them, gaining a -1 / -2 AC and +5/10 Kg weight). The most important and = the richest leaders wear a bronze, gold and silver plated, helmet. When they travel, they rides horses, but they aren't so good like humans = barbarians (I'll speak about them in a later message). When they stop, = slaves have no tents at all or, if it's really cold and windy, they uses = a small wooden wall to stop the wind and old, ugly, rotten animal furs = to cover themself. Rulers can have, depending on their culture and the = hardware available, a tent, a small wooden cottage, or a room digged = underground. Animals are usually left free, but they are closely guarded = because robbery is feared. They have great knowledge of their territory = and, if they know that they are going in a place with no trees at all, = they bring fire-wood with them.; In war, they uses an hit-and-run-away tactic if the raiding party is = small, but sometimes, when they are really low on food or slaves, they = join in a greater horde and try to get past the defences of MChina. = Sometimes they fail, but sometimes they succed. When they are past the defences, they split again in small groups in = order to get more loot possible quickly (note that smaller group are = very rarely composed by more than 2 different races). They search for = gold, food or whatever they can need as quick as possible, then they = escape to their territories. When they reach their homeland, humanoids = fight for get the best animals and stolen weapons and armours. Anyway, = slaves can be assigned only to important generals, tribe-leaders or = shamans.; Many hordes have an healer. It's a humanoid-cleric who worship his = race's own Immortal (see GAZ about Broken Lands and Immortal boxed set = for more infos) and have to heal the rulers. It often forbidden to heal = slaves in peace, but rulers may agree if they are in war and they need = soldier. The healer uses healing spells, but he also is expert in = preparing healing potions with vegetals (he can also prepare many = poisons...). Shamans are less common that healers. They are magic users, but there = are some difference with the human ones. They don't have a spellbook: = when they learn a spell, they tatoo it on their own skin (humanoids = cannot read and write, but shamans uses some kind of ideograms). Shamans = can't learn many spells: they have a -4 malus on the maximum number of = spells they can learn and also on the maximum spell-level (therefore, = there could be some exceptions for really very old shamans, or for some = humanoid heroes). When a shaman casts a spell, he must shake his mystic = sceptre (an artistic staff whith a skull on it's top and some precious = gems in the skull), shout his magic words very loudly and, if the spell = is very powerful, dance. More power a shaman gets, more valuable must be = his sceptre (more gems, staff made of the finest wood, a skull of an = important MChinese....). That's all for now, Mystarans. Tomorrow, I'll go on holiday (well, I'm going to play waterpolo in = Malta!) and I'll return at the end of August; so I'll have a lot of time = to think ang imagine... Dear Joe Duncan: Keep up the good work!! :-) Dear Pascal: Send more gnoll stuff, have you seen I've left all the = gnollish barbarians to you? byez, see you on August, the 28th !! Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:53:32 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB795B.30DE9920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, - ---------- From: Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One[SMTP:jsmill@imap1.asu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 1996 3:45 AM To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting On Fri, 8 Feb 1980, Joe Duncan wrote: > >And Suma? And Davania? > Suma'a and Gombar, the two homes of the demi-ogre races mentioned elsewhere in this thread, are both located on the western side of the Arm of the Immortals, on the coast next to that huge mountain chain. Suma'a is more of a religious/clericy than Gombar, which is a merchant realm (unless I have the two confused...) The Ee'ar and those winged minotaurs (whatever they're called) are located smack dab in the middle of the mountain chain that runs down the length of the arm of the Immortals (I think it's called the Immortals Shield). What about Zyxl as a Japan-style setting? George - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB795B.30DE9920 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhkRAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEALwAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gQSBwbGFjZSBm b3IgdGhlIE9yaWVudGFsIHNldHRpbmcAVBABBYADAA4AAADMBwcAGAALADUAIAADAFUBASCAAwAO AAAAzAcHABgACwA0ADkAAwBtAQEJgAEAIQAAADE3Njg2QkQ5NDZFNUNGMTE5QkVDNDQ0NTUzNTQw MDAwAP8GAQOQBgAIBQAAEAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AKBo kKWAebsBHgBwAAEAAAAvAAAAUkU6IFtNeXN0YXJhXSBBIHBsYWNlIGZvciB0aGUgT3JpZW50YWwg c2V0dGluZwAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbt5gKWH2WtoGOVGEc+b7ERFU1QAAAAAAwAGEIetO4QDAAcQ rgIAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhFTExPLC0tLS0tLS0tLS1GUk9NOkNUSFVMSFVEUkVXLFRIRUdSRUFU T0xET05FU01UUDpKU01JTExASU1BUDFBU1VFRFVTRU5UOlRVRVNEQVksSlVMWTIzLDE5OTYzOjQ1 QU0AAAAAAgEJEAEAAACsAwAAqAMAAEsGAABMWkZ1OrkRkP8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gK wHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2x C2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFGFC/JjAEAgSGVsFaAGLAqFCotsaTE4MMEC0WktMTQ0DfAM0HMdMwtZMTYK oANgE9BjfQVALR9XCoceCwwwHtZGHQNhOiBeHtYMgiBDdChodWwkMGQWEHcsQCBUaGUgRxYQYREF QE9sZCVwbmVbAFNNVFA6anNtCQMQbEAHcGFwMS6QYXN1LgmAdV0f/18hDQZgAjAiPyNLVApQcyhk YXkkwEokQHkgBDIzJMAxOTk2INAzOjQ1FLBNJ68hDWxUbynvI0ttE7EKwGHSLSahby4FoG0tryi+ OHViah8RL88jS1JlqTUQW00xtF0UsCALUb5jJQACEAXAJCAlAE8IgasCMAdAIBGxdAuAZxtf+Rxj MzYd1xpFHtYlwCHh6mkkwDgh4GUj8CzgHMCFLDFvJQBEdW5jA5Eqdx7iOjncPj/wQW43JaA0oADA PxSwQEFEYXZ2AHAHMD8/lzncQHInrGEgAHAloEcDcGIKwIMkwDiSdHdvIGgDcDkHkW9mOIMNsCZw LW/9CcEgMfA4IAQgB4ACMDJA3yXQJaAKhRsAEbB3JPBF8d8LgDiBBAA4gSUxZCTACsD3JQAG4CQg IBWgPoAT0CWg+wIgOIN3B5AT0AShAJANsJtFBgcQbRu2RRVJbQRg+wAgB0BzJMBKRQWgJyAFQPUl 0HgFQHREkCQgJVEkMP5nJQAEYD5gAZBIMRFxC4D+LkL2CoVIgU0xS2NDUBYQBRyQZzJAdXMvY2z9 BnFjLIBPEQOgQ7ZH0FNA70mgSIFDUAeAchFxAjBSUbsHQEwXKD5gUxAEEUlEoM9BIERRREUFoG5m UtAJgJouWFApOdwk4kVlQ0D3BcBDciQgbxGwPrA5oUbxtSZwbh7wYQhwBCAoR9DnSfFXIDhzeSdF 8T6AGxB9CYApSSMKhUnGJmAA0GvfRXAj4UgzT5FLQGRTEEUGG0+8TwRyPmAEIGRvd/dKVF2mCfBn SZFFFQrATBAvTK5WUFbgSGFuXtBpdP4nBCBc5GRdQpZIcBsAXTCeLjpPO10bvBnfIFdPIscBoAhg BUBaeXgDICcgrVIxSibgAHAtE8B5X+HPOWVBhmp2I9JHZQWwT4ALOdwVMQBxoAMAEBAAAAAAAwAR EAAAAABAAAcw4CiMkIB5uwFAAAgw4CiMkIB5uwEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAFR9 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB795B.30DE9920-- ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 17:54:44 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Maps Dave Brohman writes: > Sounds cool. Once term starts in the fall, lets arrange a date and get > together. Like I suggested to Joe Duncan, I'm quite skilled as a cartographer. I'd be more than willing to map out whatever we work on. As I suggested to him, let's start with Zyxl and go west from there - it's small, and therefore far easier to work with. It would also be a logical place to start (for me, anyhow). What do you think? Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 20:02:40 -0500 From ???@??? Fri Jul 26 16:33:45 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA24185; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:18:12 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA01706 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:04:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:04:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199607250804.DAA01706@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #176 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: bceedd9938ccb4bf7a076f6b6278a884 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Humanoid barbarians for Oriental setting - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Wednesday, 24-Jul-96 07:06 PM > From: Gabriele Ferri \ Internet: (fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ) > Many hordes have an healer. It's a humanoid-cleric who worship his race's own > Immortal (see GAZ about Broken Lands and Immortal boxed set for more infos ) and > have to heal the rulers. It often forbidden to heal slaves in peace, but rulers > may agree if they are in war and they need soldier. The healer uses healing > spells, but he also is expert in preparing healing potions with vegetals (he > can also prepare many poisons...). > Shamans are less common that healers. They are magic users, but there are some > difference with the human ones. They don't have a spellbook: when they learn a > spell, they tatoo it on their own skin (humanoids cannot read and write, but > shamans uses some kind of ideograms). Shamans can't learn many spells: they > have a -4 malus on the maximum number of spells they can learn and also on the > maximum spell-level (therefore, there could be some exceptions for really very > old shamans, or for some humanoid heroes). When a shaman casts a spell, he must > shake his mystic sceptre (an artistic staff whith a skull on it's top and some > precious gems in the skull), shout his magic words very loudly and, if the > spell is very powerful, dance. More power a shaman gets, more valuable must be > his sceptre (more gems, staff made of the finest wood, a skull of an important > MChinese....). - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Hey, this shaman is terrific! The tattoos, the sceptre, the shouting and dancing, this is great! Anyone have anything similar for the "clerics?" Seems a shame... Shelby ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 10:33:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting At 02:06 PM 7/23/96 -0400, you wrote: >I would like to apologize first for making multiple posts coming up >soon. I have yet figured out is there anyway to reply multiple >letters with my mailer. Hopfully Jody's mailing list could be set Sorry, nix on the ML, I checked and my server ( the school's doesn't allow it... ) I'll still do the bookkeeping though.... >I only speak mandarin. Of the three names I listed above, I prefer Chung- >Eun a bit more because Chung-Kuo are still been used and Shen-Cho (continent >of god) might run into some coufusion with the God/immortal stuff even >though the god been used there is probably just an adjective to describe >how grand the place is. Feel free to suggest some other nice sounding >combination of words for the name of the place, and I'll try to >translate it to see how good it sounds. For now I suggest the notation >of MChina for the "China" we going to develop in Mystara, and Mwhatever, >for other countries/cultures. This way we can easily keep track which >place we are talking about and keep it seperate from the real world >cultures. This sounds good. I'll keep this as well.... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:57:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] timeline draft for AC 1014 At 02:38 PM 7/21/96 +0200, you wrote: >At 00.27 18/07/96 EST, you wrote: > >Good work indeed your timeline for AC 1014. >I've just to say a couple of things. >> Exactly. Something I just thought of, relating to PC4 Night Howlers. Back in AC 1000 or so, the werecreatures in The Valley of the Wolves were thinking about making there own principality... I wonder what's happening with that... ------------------------------ From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (Shawn) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:40:16 +1000 Subject: [Mystara] Some spells Here are some spells I found from an old campaign. Magic User spells - Level 2 Imitate Sound Range: caster only Duration: 1 turn plus 1 round/level of caster Effect: creates a sound Description: With this spell the caster can imitate and sound that he or she has heard in the last day, plus 1 hour per level of the caster. Human voices cannot be imitated with this spell, but the sound of any creature; normal, giant, fantastic, undead; may be imitated along with any other sound. Even sounds not within the hearing range of the caster may be imitated if the caster knows that such sounds have been made within the time indicated above. At the time of casting the caster brings to mind the sound or set of sounds that he or she wishes to imitate and this sound may be imitated any number of times during the duration of the spell. The sound or sounds imitated may be as long as desired, for example a musical score. Any creature or being within hearing range of the sound has a chance of disbelieving the imitated sound as per the table below, based on that beings intelligence. Intelligence Percent 20 and above 100 17 - 19 70 13 - 16 40 9 - 12 20 8 and below 0 The percentage chance for a being to disbelieve the sound reduces at a rate of 2% per level of the caster. Use: This spell is generally a defensive spell which can be used to scare of people or creatures with the sounds of some ferocious beast or other. For a low level magic user who is need or extra copper this spell may be used as part of some sort of sideshow event. This spell can also have interesting effects if used with the spell Ventriloquism. Disclaimer: I apologise if this spell is similar to any other spell previously created. It may, on reflection, be similar to some sort of AD&D illusionist spell but it is a D&D spell. Magic User spells - Level 3 Gnighmen's Undeniable Truth Range: touch Duration: 1 turn Effect: forces one other being to answer one or several questions truthfully Description: To cast this spell the caster must touch the recipient, if the recipient is an unwilling one then a to-hit roll must be made. Once cast the recipient of the spell must answer a number of questions, depending on the table below, that the caster asks. The recipient is not forced to answer the question by the spell, but if they choose to answer then they must answer the question truthfully. The definition of truth understandably only extends as far as the recipients perception of the truth exists, though if the recipient knows nothing about the thing question then if they answer they must answer that they know nothing. The questioner must be caster of the spell and no effect is gained by questions being asked by any other person. The spell does not give the ability for the casters question nor the recipients answer to be understood, other means must be used to ensure this if needed. The number of questions which are allowed within the duration of the spell is dependant on the recipients intelligence depending on the table below. Intelligence Number of questions 20 and above 10% chance for one question 18-19 50% chance for one question 16-17 one question 13-15 two questions 9-12 three questions 6-8 four questions 1-5 five questions 0 is the recipient capable of contact? Use: The spell seems to have an obvious use, especially if it can be cast without the knowledge of the recipient, though if this occurs then it may be difficult to get a person to answer a second question once they realise that they answered the first question truthfully against their will. Because of this other people, for example burly fighters may be needed to "help" the recipient answer the questions of the caster. Once the allotted number of questions have been asked additional questions need not be answered truthfully but the recipient, by this time, may believe the spell to still be in effect and therefore answer additional questions truthfully - the occurrence of this is up to the DM and should be based upon the intelligence and exposure to magic of the recipient. Disclaimer: As above I apologise if this spell is similar to another spell in print. The idea for this spell was gained from a magic item in the module X2 Castle Amber. Druid spells - Level 3 Sublimation* Range: 120 feet Duration: instantaneous Effect: causes a phase change in water from solid to vapour Description: This spell causes a volume of ice up to 50 metres cubed to change from ice into water vapour. The shape of ice which undergoes sublimation may be as complicated or simple as the caster desires. The reverse of this spell, sublimation, changes water vapour into ice up to a volume of 50 metres cubed. Note: Regardless of which effect is desired the resulting water phase will begin to naturally change back if the conditions are right. That is, if you are in a polar region on water when this happens then the water will re-freeze, likewise if you make ice in a jungle type region this ice will instantly start to melt. It should also be noted for the vapour to solid version of the spell that enough water vapour is present to perform the spell, therefore in a desert region there will unlikely be enough water vapour present to form very much ice at all. Use: In temperate regions the change from vapour to solid can be used to create an effective barrier for an amount of time whilst in polar regions the barrier becomes more permanent. In polar regions the change from solid to vapour is of obvious use for clearing a way for boats to travel or even for clearing obstacles in overland travel. The one problem though for the former suggestion is that the water will re-freeze. To overcome this a player need only throw salt into the water thus reducing the freezing temperature of the water, alternatively a character may research a spell to do this over a wider area than the characters can throw to though this spell would be only a first level spell or if you're using AD&D rules perhaps only a cantrip. Disclaimer: This spell may seem like the magic user transmute-a-to-b type spells though since sublimation is a natural process I decided to make this a druid spell. Also because sublimation is a natural process the spell level is lower than transmute spells. If you want this to be a magic user spell I would suggest perhaps a fifth level spell though I would not suggest that this should be done. Shawn Stanley and being updated as you read - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 00:44:39 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting First, a couple of ideas about this grand project: Well, I just read the lastest postings on the Oriental Mystara culture we want to make, and there were so many different headers or whatever that it got confusing, and sometimes I didn't even know if it dealt with the Oriental setting. I have a proposition. Since this is a very large and very diverse discussion/project, maybe we should put "O" (for Oriental) right after [Mystara] in the header, if the posting pertains to this subject, and then put the more specific topic after it. I think this would really increase our efficiency. I think it would be nice to put this together like a gazeteer in the end, hopefully having more than one... Now for the actual Mystara stuff: I like the idea of having the wall thing be underground. Perhaps a chasm would be good too, as Kaviyd mentioned, and it still could be sort of an underground wall. It could be the major place where the land of luxury above and the war below met, if we use that idea. I don't think it's such a good idea to isolate and divide the area so much, with powerful magic, like fire or lightning or mind affecting stuff. I think the wall should greatly hinder attacks, but not totally. Someone mentioned secret societies too. The wall area would be a good place, maybe for some cloak and dagger sort of stuff, between the two(or more) sides in the war and the outside if its a chasm or something with access to the outside. An interesting place for a fortress or something of a secret society would be in or near the wall... in a hidden cavern... the bottom of the chasm (if we decide to use it), etc. It might be funny to have a weird gnoll secret society too. The Empire of the great Khan is a large area of grassland, with some steppes nearby, and Shin Chyang Yu mantioned the name Khan is a Mongolian term, not Chinese. I personally think that this area is obviously a Mongol sort of culture, because of these reasons. Perhaps it would be better to have MChina somewhere else. I am quite glad that the list is actively making stuff for Mystara, but I think it's much better to build upon what is there instead of changing it. That way maybe more Mystara fans would like it, and it would be more official, you know. Oh, I'm not saying that it absolutely was intended to be Mongolian, but don't you think it seems like it probably was? Hmmm, does anyone know who made the Master's map? Maybe we could ask them if they had anything in mind for the area... Oh, I just remembered someone mentioned the Master's set map being wrong, because Prince Haldemar explored the area. Sadly, in Champions of Mystara, all the info isn't there from the Dragon magazine series. Could someone perhaps elaborate on the article, and review the series that deals with the area? We should all know whether Haldemar's observations seem valid or not, because if not, I think we should go by the Masters map. They contradict each other so we should find out which is more logical. If his observations seem real, I agree that it would be the *perfect* place for MChina. That's a really nice idea of having dynasties of dragons. I wonder if there would be any dragon riding people. If dragons were living with humans, the elite military could be something like this. On the other hand, if the dragons were living among humans secretly, this would not be the case, or be very rare. In this posting I disagreed with some people's ideas, I only mean it as discussion so please don't take any of it as flaming. That's all for now. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #176 ***************************** mystara-digest Thursday, 25 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 177 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 19:39:29 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting At 11:53 AM 7/24/96 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, >What about Zyxl as a Japan-style setting? I think that's an excellent place. There's only one small mention of this place in Dragon #200, it mentions the "Warriors of Zyxl". ( Zyxl is, again, probably an erroneous Thyatian name ). These warriors could very easily be the Mjapan equivalents of Samurai and Warlords.. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 19:39:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps At 05:54 PM 7/24/96 EDT, you wrote: >Dave Brohman writes: >> Sounds cool. Once term starts in the fall, lets arrange a date and get >> together. > > Like I suggested to Joe Duncan, I'm quite skilled as a >cartographer. I'd be more than willing to map out whatever we work on. >As I suggested to him, let's start with Zyxl and go west from there - it's >small, and therefore far easier to work with. It would also be a logical >place to start (for me, anyhow). > > What do you think? Can you do it in GIF or JPG format? With hexes ( or is that asking too much )? > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 19:39:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting >> > >been used are Middle Kingdom, God Continant, Central Prime, >> > >Middle Plain, etc. How about a transliteration of one of those >> > >name? Such as Chung-Kuo, Shen-Cho, Chung-Eun, etc? > >Central Prime, yeah! :) > > 'And my son, so as there are many planes of excistence, >and as the one we live in is the central one of them, the >plane of Prime-material, just as well is our divine and >eternal country in the exact center of the Prime plane >and so we can call it Central Prime. We are truly in the >true heart and center of the multiverse, and in the exact >point, in the exact centre of the Multiverse, Universe >and Prime is the Seat of our Emperor, the Dragon.' Now this I like!!! Hows that for the name of our new nation? Everyone agree? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 19:39:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oriental culture (was: Mages) > choosing an area in eastern Skothar where we'll create the first nation... > Pick a place. >> > >That "Empire of the Great Khan" on the old Master's map seems like a natural >place to start. I would picture it as the most advanced nation on the Hhmmmm... That seems like an overly large area to me. It covers all most all of eastern Skothar. We do need to leave room for other nations as well. How about placing it in the south-eastern corner of area 10 on the Masters map. It's still an empire-sized area, but leaves room for other nations. It would have some coast on the Sea of Brun in the east, and some mountains from the Nentsun plateau as well as a lot of plains area ( which can be detailed even more however we like ) Is that an agreeable location for this first nation? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 19:39:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Humanoid barbarians for Oriental setting At 07:06 PM 7/24/96 +-200, you wrote: >Hi, I'm still working on barbarians for MChina. >Here are more infos about humanoid barbarians (see also my earlier messages): > >There are many different tribal groups; My apologies for snippping this most magnificent post. I'll hang onto this one as well. I'll be making an archive ( *.zip ) of all posts that describe in some small way this new area. We can all work and modify it to form one unified whole, so the material will probably change as we go... > >That's all for now, Mystarans. > >Tomorrow, I'll go on holiday (well, I'm going to play waterpolo in Malta!) and I'll return at the end of August; so I'll have a lot of time to think ang imagine... > >Dear Joe Duncan: Keep up the good work!! :-) Thanks, I'm just trying to do my part to keep things organized ( I don't know much about oriental culture but I wouldn't want to see this project fail ) and moving. I'm working on trying to get some maps in GIF or JPG format. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 19:39:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire At 09:34 PM 7/23/96 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-07-23 16:30:50 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu >(Shin Chyang Yu) writes: > ><< The name Khan is a Mongolian term, not Chinese. BTW, I point these things > out just to let people know, does not mean I'm againest the idea. This > could be a mistranslation by the Known World explorer, for example. >> > >You confirmed my suspicions there -- when I see the title "Khan", I find >myself thinking of Genghis and Kublai. That is why there was only a single >reference to "Empire of the Great Khan" -- that is the term given on the old >Master's map, and you have given good reasons that it should be regarded >as inaccurate. In fact, I suspect that "Empire of the Great One" might be a >more suitable name for the country, given their reverence for Dragons and >thus for "the Great One" -- the chief dragon Immortal. The empire of the Great Khan could simply be the erroneous name that people from the Known World have given the nation, based on what little they know about it. What would the Chinese translation of "Great Empire" be? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 19:38:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mages >> >> However there are many undescribed areas in the outer and hollow world. If >> >> there is any place to develop an oriental setting for the Mystara setting, >> >> it's here on the list, so why don't we pick an undescribed area and create >> >> our own Oriental setting? No one else is going to do it. >> >> Would you care to help with this? > > I'd be happy to help. Let me know if there will be a meeting. I doubt it, most of the work will probably be done on the net... >> It seems there are quite a few Mystara fans at Carleton, perhaps we >> could arange a meeting in the fall sometime? > > Great! How about one of the first weekends after class starts - we >could get a whole horde together to collaborate data. Sounds good to me, Dave? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Geoff Gander >Political Science IV >Carleton University >General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession >Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 10 Feb 1980 19:39:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another Shadow Elf comment... At 09:21 PM 7/23/96 EDT, you wrote: >Joe Duncan writes: >> >> One thing that I find kind of strange is why the elves of Alfheim >> would seek refuge in Wendar. The wendarian elves are the closest relatives >> of the shadow elves on Mystara. After the Great Rain Of Fire most of the >> elves from the four clans that settled near Blackmoor went underground, but >> some remained. They endured the ice age and survived to the present day, >> becoming the elves of Wendar, they're even of the same clans as the Shadow >> Elves!! Why would they help the Alfheim elves instead of their long lost >> brethren? Very confusing... > > Interesting. Do you happen to know of any source that states that >the elves of Wendar are in fact of the same four lost clans as those of >the Shadowelves? I have considerable literature, but I was just wondering >if you could direct me to the appropriate source. I have nothing that states it explicitly. But the PWA 2 says that the Wendar elves are descended from the elves that settled near Blackmoor. All the literature I've read states that four and only four clans of elves settled near Blackmoor, and all of them are represented in the Shadow elves. It stands to reason that the Shadow elves and Wendar elves *MUST* have blood relations... ( and the same clan names... ) >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Geoff Gander >Political Science IV >Carleton University >General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession >Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: plegrand Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:12:32 +-200 Subject: RE: [Mystara] Humanoid barbarians for Oriental setting Hello Dear Pascal: Send more gnoll stuff, have you seen I've left all the gnollish barbarians to you? Thank you for your long and useful post. I hope it will be a good start to every of us. About gnoll stuff, I'm just finishing my Averoigne one and then I switch to it. I will speak of the gnolls, their more trusted companions (hyaenas), their two immortals (Yeenoghu and the Ghoulish Hyaena from Chaos), some of their habits and so on. Hope you'll find it interested. When the new oriental setting will take form, and I want to participate, I'll try to make relations to my gnoll stuff to it. Long live the Gnolls, may your scent never fails you. Pascal (who likes dwarves too) begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A$2`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &``P!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```#\`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!M>7-T87)A+6Q :6\N M8V]M`%--5% `;7ES=&%R82UL0&EO+F-O;0``'@`", $````%````4TU44 `` M```>``,P`0```!$```!M>7-T87)A+6Q :6\N8V]M``````,`%0P!`````P#^ M#P8````>``$P`0```!,````G;7ES=&%R82UL0&EO+F-O;2<```(!"S !```` M%@```%--5% Z35E35$%202U,0$E/+D-/30````,``#D`````"P! .@$````" M`?8/`0````0````````#T"P!"( '`!@```!)4$TN36EC Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22131; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:47:54 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA06485 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:13:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:13:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199607260013.TAA06485@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #177 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: d0479de504d02c5736f792218b9479cf M0S5#.38U-T4V0T8Q,3@W,3 T-#0U-3,U-# P,# `UP8!`Y &`' $```2```` M"P`C```````#`"8```````L`*0```````P`V``````! `#D`( D2V51ZNP$> M`' ``0```#<```!213H@6TUYE39`99<+$WF M5Q'/AQ!$15-4`````!X`'@P!````! ```$9!6 `>`!\,`0````T````K,S,@ M-#@T.#4Q,C,``````P`&$*Q&(6L#``<0( (``!X`"! !````90```$A%3$Q/ M1$5!4E!!4T-!3#I314Y$34]214=.3TQ,4U151D8L2$%615E/55-%14Y)5D5, M149404Q,5$A%1TY/3$Q)4TA"05)"05))04Y35$]93U4_5$A!3DM93U5&3U)9 M3U523$\``````@$)$ $```#@`@``W (``* $``!,6D9U`82L+?\`"@$/`A4" MJ 7K`H,`4 +R"0(`8V@*P'-E=#(W!@`&PP*#,@/%`@!P)S=&5M`H,S MMP+D!Q,"@S02S!3%?0J BPC/"=D[%Y(R-347[ <6P0VB"V!N9S$P,^XV"OL5 M8@P!8P! `S !D? @2&5L%S *A1TL"T97%%$+\A-0;Q/08P5 1+)E"L%0803P M!T Z!E$8;F0@!& 7H"!G;I<&\ ,@$\!U#= L(!& .G8A,'D(8"&@">$@26HG M(D%L#B$@!T #('3&:"$U! !H(&(*P"2QTP#1O>5!& _&YK(F,"$ 7 (G$%P!$@T2/A(N$AH'T#\'01<"52+5 LPBV#<]TM(&$JD"]A(^=S(@`CX69I M!< A`W1R,@$)@" ]!:!M"K #``(@!" H:"QY80GP($ I-R9T=[TU(6TA`0&0 M-P`Y$%D)X9AO9V@BD#/U($@."(O MNU`#T``0````4```!2 )13H@`````"DX ` end ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Skothar and the Great Empire Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > You confirmed my suspicions there -- when I see the title "Khan", I find > myself thinking of Genghis and Kublai. That is why there was only a single > reference to "Empire of the Great Khan" -- that is the term given on the old > Master's map, and you have given good reasons that it should be regarded > as inaccurate. In fact, I suspect that "Empire of the Great One" might be a > more suitable name for the country, given their reverence for Dragons and > thus for "the Great One" -- the chief dragon Immortal. Humm, since the oriental and western dragon are quite different, I would consider as two different species, and don't follow the same hierarchy as the dragons. That is just a personal opinion tho. BTW, isn't the gold dragon in AD&D actually oriental dragons? At least in the first edition? I remember seeing the picture of oriental dragon in the old monster manual. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture BTW, I like the suggestion of putting an [O] flag in the header of all post regarding to Mystara, so I take the liberaty of adding them in to the post I reply to. I hope nobody will mind. > The biggest problem that I have seen regarding location is the suggested > sites for a Japanese culture. Zyxl is between 5 and 15 degrees north > latitude, and most of the point of the Tangor Peninsula lies south of the > northern tropic. Real-world Japan is between 30 and 45 degrees north; this > area is more similar to the Philippines. i'm not saying that we can't > locate a Japanese culture here, but the climate should be taken into > consideration. We not necessarily have to limit ourself to one MJapan. If people like we could develop one MJapan at region more close to its real world counterpart, and another one at the tropic in Zyxl (perhaps a old colonization attempt that later lost contact with the mother country). It would be interesting to see what a tropical Japan will be like. Beside consider we already have a hot desert right next to a scandinavian region already, a little temperature change can also be explained with various way. BTW, how far away is Zyxl from the main continent of Sokthor anyway? - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal Sigh... I was hoping we don't have to get into religion of Chinese or MChinese for a while, but since someone brought it up, I going to make a few comments. Chinese religion is VERY confusing. Most people are just not that religious. Even the religious type (monk, priest, etc), are different from their western counterpart that they are more interested in seeking self "enlightment" instead of converting others. The "religion" that the general population follow is a mix of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and the folk tales all rolled into one. And the attitude toward religion is very different from the Westerner's point of view. I'm not even sure where to start on this subject area. Should I start thinking of creating a MChinese's pantheons of Immortals? That might take a while. Also, could the "Immortal Law" be different for MOrient than those applied to the Known World. As I said before, Chinese belief that many special people in its history are incarnation of heavenly creature/minor god etc. One way to incorporate that in the Mystara campaign is that they are immortals reborn into mortal form, with their immortal memory wiped. Upon their death, their will take their place in the Immortal rank again. The Imortal Patrick described are fairly good. I just have a couple of points to make. Instead of coming from Sind, why not MIndia? Also, he should probably be bald. True follower of his will be pacifist to the extream. They will not allow to kill anything unless it is extreamly evil and have no chance of redemption. This applies to all animals and probably intelligent plants. As for undeads, the mindless type (zombie, skeletons, etc) are no different then moving tables, and can be destoryed without penalties. Buddhist don't care much about the body, believing only the soul is important. As for the intellgent undeads, I'm not sure what their view is. I can't really see them just run up and kill those creatures, especially those that are not totally evil. They probably will attempt to reason with those undeads first, get them to see that holding on to life this way is wrong, and get them to give up their undead statue willingly. So perhaps they will have the power of calm intelligent undead down and get the undeads listen to them, and if the power is successfully used, the undead need to make a saving throw, or "dissipate." Undead that is pawn of other undead should regain its free will at during the time of conversation. BTW, this will not be the religion of the mass for MChina. It will fit nicely for one of the more advanced culture that neighboring MChina that I was thinking about. Due to the religious beliefs, they are contented to stay in their own little kingdom and advance their various art to a very high degree. In historic setting this nation will be located in the mountains between India and China, where the mountain help out its small army in defending the nation a bit. but since I don't have any map with me, I'm not sure where would be a good place for this nation. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:45:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Humanoid barbarians for Oriental setting Just a question about humanoid's in Morient. Should we give them something special to add in a bit of oriental favor to them. I'm not really sure what though. Perhaps just change their name a bit? or something more. One barbaric humanoid I like to add is something about 7 feet tall, long hairy red fur grow all over their body, weird colored eyes, pointy nose, pointy teeth, eat raw meat, chew each others face as greeting custom, total savage and barbaric in manner, walk around semi-naked, including the females. That is about all I can think of for now. The description was Chinese's general conception of what westerner like a couple of hundreds of years ago :) ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Skothar and the Great Empire > Humm, since the oriental and western dragon are quite different, I would > consider as two different species, and don't follow the same hierarchy > as the dragons. That is just a personal opinion tho. BTW, isn't the gold > dragon in AD&D actually oriental dragons? At least in the first edition? > I remember seeing the picture of oriental dragon in the old monster manual. > IMO, the whole concept of oriental dragons was somewhat botched in early AD&D. The Monster Manual showed a snaky like dragon, markedly different from the others which are a reasonable facimile of the one St. George shish kebabed. Later on, in Fiend Folio, there was an attempt to introduce Oriental Dragons. More were introduced in Monster Manual II, and the Oriental Companion. But I do not recall them returning to "fix" the gold dragon, or comment on it, which leads me to suspect that the picture was "in error". Certainly, as an oriental dragon, it's writeup would be lacking, I think, in at least psych details. I'm uncertain whether the 2nd edition sorted out dragons and made some power/conception changes or not. Someone wanna fill me in? Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 18:34:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > From: David Melik \ Internet: (darwin@magick.net) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > I am quite glad that the list is actively making stuff for > Mystara, but I think it's much better to build upon what is there instead of > changing it. That way maybe more Mystara fans would like it, and it would be > more official, you know. - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- David, I strongly agree. The more we stick to official descriptions, the better. Contradictions should be right out. IMHO, of course. Certainly, there would be less likelihood of dissatisfaction and argument. And less likelihood of making something incompatible with campaigns run with the official background. Shelby ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire Joe Duncan pontificated: > > The empire of the Great Khan could simply be the erroneous name that > people from the Known World have given the nation, based on what little they > know about it. What would the Chinese translation of "Great Empire" be? > I don't think China every put "Great Empire" in its own name when refering to itself. Probably because the Great part should be consider as understood when refering to China:) (as I said, Chinese are very egocentric) Well, hold on. In Tang dynasty, they do refer to themself as Da-Tang or Big Tang. (one thing I forgot to mention earlier was that the name the dynasty is also the name of the country ... does this make sense to everybody?) - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #177 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 26 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 178 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting > >Central Prime, yeah! :) > > > > 'And my son, so as there are many planes of excistence, > >and as the one we live in is the central one of them, the > >plane of Prime-material, just as well is our divine and > >eternal country in the exact center of the Prime plane > >and so we can call it Central Prime. We are truly in the > >true heart and center of the multiverse, and in the exact > >point, in the exact centre of the Multiverse, Universe > >and Prime is the Seat of our Emperor, the Dragon.' > > Now this I like!!! Hows that for the name of our new nation? > Everyone agree? > I must say, that was a great little passage. Another thing I like about the name Chung-Eun (I'll try to find some better way to spell this. I don't think many people can pronouce Eun:) is that there are also many other Chinese words that have the same sound. So if you don't like Central Prime, you could take Central Origin, Central Plain, Central Circle, etc. Can't think that much for Chung off hand. It could be clock or bell, but that doesn't make a very interesting name for a country. For those of you with a sense of humor, the name could also be Heavy Ape :) - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 19:07:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > From: Shin Chyang Yu \ Internet: (scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia. edu) > Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal > Sigh... I was hoping we don't have to get into religion of Chinese or MChinese > for a while, but since someone brought it up, I going to make a few comments. > Chinese religion is VERY confusing. Most people are just not that religious. > Even the religious type (monk, priest, etc), are different from their western > counterpart that they are more interested in seeking self "enlightment" instead > of converting others. The "religion" that the general population follow is a > mix of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and the folk tales all rolled into one. > And the attitude toward religion is very different from the Westerner's point > of view. I'm not even sure where to start on this subject area. Should I > start thinking of creating a MChinese's pantheons of Immortals? That might > take a while. Also, could the "Immortal Law" be different for MOrient than > those applied to the Known World. As I said before, Chinese belief that many > special people in its history are incarnation of heavenly creature/minor god > etc. One way to incorporate that in the Mystara campaign is that they are > immortals reborn into mortal form, with their immortal memory wiped. Upon their > death, their will take their place in the Immortal rank again. > As for undeads, the mindless type (zombie, skeletons, etc) are no different > then moving tables, and can be destroyed without penalties. Buddhist don't > care much about the body, believing only the soul is important. As for the > intelligent undeads, I'm not sure what their view is. I can't really see them > just run up and kill those creatures, especially those that are not totally > evil. They probably will attempt to reason with those undeads first, get them > to see that holding on to life this way is wrong, and get them to give up their > undead statue willingly. So perhaps they will have the power of calm > intelligent undead down and get the undeads listen to them, and if the power is > successfully used, the undead need to make a saving throw, or "dissipate." - -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Hello, This is pretty fascinating stuff for a Westerner, or at least for this one. What do you think of the Oriental pantheons in Deities and Demigods/Legends and Lore etc? Where does that (polytheism) fit into the milieu of Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism and folk tales? What's the "Immortal Law" you refer to above? I like what you've described for intelligent undead, please continue in this vein. In an earlier post you mentioned that the older, original Great Wall is in fact a mound, while the stone wall people picture was only built within the past few hundred years. Are you saying that the original Great Wall was built as a mound, or that all that remains of it is a mound? Thank you again, I think your contributions are a terrific opportunity to get Oriental cultures "right." Shelby Michlin P.S. How do we refer to you politely, as Shin, as Yu, or something else? ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting David Melik pontificated: > I like the idea of having the wall thing be underground. Perhaps a chasm > would be good too, as Kaviyd mentioned, and it still could be sort of an > underground wall. It could be the major place where the land of luxury > above and the war below met, if we use that idea. I don't think it's such a > good idea to isolate and divide the area so much, with powerful magic, like > fire or lightning or mind affecting stuff. I think the wall should greatly > hinder attacks, but not totally. Well, I wasn't intended for it to be impentrable. Just something that is really impressive looking and maybe hurt a bit. If you are just an average grunt orc, do you want to go through a big wall of lightning even if it might only do a point or two of damage if you run very quickly. Also, along the wall, there will be regualar fort that allows travlers and traders to pass through. But that is just mine idea. A big underground wall is a pretty cool idea too, just not as impressive looking. I sort of want the wall to be a major land mark. > > The Empire of the great Khan is a large area of grassland, with some steppes > nearby, and Shin Chyang Yu mantioned the name Khan is a Mongolian term, not > Chinese. I personally think that this area is obviously a Mongol sort of > culture, because of these reasons. Perhaps it would be better to have MChina > somewhere else. I am quite glad that the list is actively making stuff for > Mystara, but I think it's much better to build upon what is there instead of > changing it. That way maybe more Mystara fans would like it, and it would > be more official, you know. Oh, I'm not saying that it absolutely was > intended to be Mongolian, but don't you think it seems like it probably was? > Hmmm, does anyone know who made the Master's map? Maybe we could ask them > if they had anything in mind for the area... Well, I'm not too interested in developing a Monglian area because there are already a pretty good mogolian background culture in KW. > > That's a really nice idea of having dynasties of dragons. I wonder if there > would be any dragon riding people. If dragons were living with humans, the > elite military could be something like this. On the other hand, if the > dragons were living among humans secretly, this would not be the case, or be > very rare. Omm, in Chinese's point of view, a dragon is probably about as awe inspiring as an angel. I don't think a dragon will let many people riding it, and even if it does, most probably wouldn't dare to. I mean, do you think the commoner will have as much respect to the Emperor (an incarnation of a golden dragon) if dragon was mere mounts? Dragon, could be a guardian of some places, especially remote wilderness paradis or some place of high magic. Well, let me describe oriental dragon a bit here. I guess most people know what they look like: long bodied, no wing, 4 legs. Dragons, for most part, are creature of water. They live in the seas or deep lakes. I don't think all the dragon can fly either. But all of the more powerful one should, as they need to fly to the heaven, generally for the banquet :) Most dragons are also very intellgent and able to take human form. Dragons also have to job of controlling the rainfall. However, dragons doesn't seems to be very powerful physically. In the folktales they often got beat up, even the dragon kings. Some dragon are also very lecherous. They can mate with almost anything, and the offspring sometime became more powerful version of the other parent, sometime became powerful monster. BTW, let me reiterate again that I point out things like this just to let people know what is true to mythical China and what is not. It does not mean I reject a certain idea. If most people felt a cavalry of dragons is cool, lets go with that. However, I think dragons should be rarer to maintain its mystic. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 17:24:57 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting << I like the idea of having the wall thing be underground. Perhaps a chasm > would be good too, as Kaviyd mentioned, and it still could be sort of an > underground wall. It could be the major place where the land of luxury > above and the war below met, if we use that idea. I don't think it's such a > good idea to isolate and divide the area so much, with powerful magic, like > fire or lightning or mind affecting stuff. I think the wall should greatly > hinder attacks, but not totally. Well, I wasn't intended for it to be impentrable. Just something that is really impressive looking and maybe hurt a bit. If you are just an average grunt orc, do you want to go through a big wall of lightning even if it might only do a point or two of damage if you run very quickly. Also, along the wall, there will be regualar fort that allows travlers and traders to pass through. But that is just mine idea. A big underground wall is a pretty cool idea too, just not as impressive looking. I sort of want the wall to be a major land mark. > > The Empire of the great Khan is a large area of grassland, with some steppes > nearby, and Shin Chyang Yu mantioned the name Khan is a Mongolian term, not > Chinese. I personally think that this area is obviously a Mongol sort of > culture, because of these reasons. Perhaps it would be better to have MChina > somewhere else. I am quite glad that the list is actively making stuff for > Mystara, but I think it's much better to build upon what is there instead of > changing it. That way maybe more Mystara fans would like it, and it would > be more official, you know. Oh, I'm not saying that it absolutely was > intended to be Mongolian, but don't you think it seems like it probably was? > Hmmm, does anyone know who made the Master's map? Maybe we could ask them > if they had anything in mind for the area... Well, I'm not too interested in developing a Monglian area because there are already a pretty good mogolian background culture in KW. > > That's a really nice idea of having dynasties of dragons. I wonder if there > would be any dragon riding people. If dragons were living with humans, the > elite military could be something like this. On the other hand, if the > dragons were living among humans secretly, this would not be the case, or be > very rare. Omm, in Chinese's point of view, a dragon is probably about as awe inspiring as an angel. I don't think a dragon will let many people riding it, and even if it does, most probably wouldn't dare to. I mean, do you think the commoner will have as much respect to the Emperor (an incarnation of a golden dragon) if dragon was mere mounts? Dragon, could be a guardian of some places, especially remote wilderness paradis or some place of high magic. Well, let me describe oriental dragon a bit here. I guess most people know what they look like: long bodied, no wing, 4 legs. Dragons, for most part, are creature of water. They live in the seas or deep lakes. I don't think all the dragon can fly either. But all of the more powerful one should, as they need to fly to the heaven, generally for the banquet :) Most dragons are also very intellgent and able to take human form. Dragons also have to job of controlling the rainfall. However, dragons doesn't seems to be very powerful physically. In the folktales they often got beat up, even the dragon kings. Some dragon are also very lecherous. They can mate with almost anything, and the offspring sometime became more powerful version of the other parent, sometime became powerful monster. BTW, let me reiterate again that I point out things like this just to let people know what is true to mythical China and what is not. It does not mean I reject a certain idea. If most people felt a cavalry of dragons is cool, lets go with that. However, I think dragons should be rarer to maintain its mystic.>>> A cavalry of Dragon-Riders would be wonderful in a more mythical Europe setting. For the MChina setting, I agree that Dragons should be extremely rare From ???@??? Sat Jul 27 13:53:44 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA10872; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:59:29 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA08784 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:30:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:30:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199607260630.BAA08784@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #178 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 4c61974692fe908b5941c2fbfb236d61 (at least as far as the commoners know). J. Ovard ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:07:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > We not necessarily have to limit ourself to one MJapan. If people like > we could develop one MJapan at region more close to its real world > counterpart, and another one at the tropic in Zyxl (perhaps a old > colonization attempt that later lost contact with the mother country). > It would be interesting to see what a tropical Japan will be like. > Beside consider we already have a hot desert right next to a > scandinavian region already, a little temperature change can also be > explained with various way. I was thinking of something like that, and even had an an idea of how to explain Zyxl as being mid-temperate to cold despite its latitude. Basically, one of Japan's creation myths involves a giant dragon being slain, and I believe its body became part of Japan. (It's been a while since I read the myth.) In Mystara, it would be quite possible to imagine a myth of an epic battle with an immense white dragon, so cold that when it died and fell into the ocean, it chilled the waters and lands for hundreds of miles around, for thousands of years, and its body was covered in ice and became one of the northernmost points of Zyxl. (I also recall the battle involving the legendary three treasures of the Emperor - the sword, the mirror, and the curved jewel, which could easily be real magic items or even artifacts in MJapan.) What do people think of this idea? (It doesn't even have to be a factual legend - just the way the people of Zyxl believe it to be. The real reason might be ancient magic, or Immortal intervention, or some combination of those with the events of the legend, or something else.) Also, I'm considering combing my kanji dictionary to create an appropriate name for MJapan that would *sound* a little like Zyxl, so that when Thyatian explorers come across the island, they can continue calling it Zyxl just as our European explorers called the islands of Nippon Japan. Any opinions of that? - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:36:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] timeline draft for AC 1014 In a message dated 96-07-25 02:24:25 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << Exactly. Something I just thought of, relating to PC4 Night Howlers. Back in AC 1000 or so, the werecreatures in The Valley of the Wolves were thinking about making there own principality... I wonder what's happening with that... >> They got it (their own prinicipality, that is). Its name is "Morlay-Malinbois", and the later AD&D Mystara products that mention Glantri all refer to it. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:35:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting In a message dated 96-07-25 08:44:05 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << There's only one small mention of this place in Dragon #200, it mentions the "Warriors of Zyxl". ( Zyxl is, again, probably an erroneous Thyatian name ). >> I missed that reference, but it is important. Since the name Zyxl is given in a document by a Gombarian merchant, I would lean towards accepting the name as real rather than a Thyatian invention. From that reference, we know that Zyxl is dominated by warriors and that the demi-ogres can visit and trade with them. The rest is left to our imaginations. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:36:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting In a message dated 96-07-25 04:18:18 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << I don't think it's such a good idea to isolate and divide the area so much, with powerful magic, like fire or lightning or mind affecting stuff. I think the wall should greatly hinder attacks, but not totally. >> I did put some fairly significant limitations on those mind affecting powers: they only work on invaders from the northwest, and then only if they fail their saving throws. Thus, an invading army (made up mostly of zero-level soldiers) would be thrown into chaos, but high level adventurers could most likely get through. Also, the wall/chasm does not extend all the way to the sea, so it is quite possible to go around the wall -- you just have to fight a few more Jennites, Minaeans, or other barbarians in the process. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:37:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting In a message dated 96-07-25 04:18:18 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << That's a really nice idea of having dynasties of dragons. I wonder if there would be any dragon riding people. If dragons were living with humans, the elite military could be something like this. On the other hand, if the dragons were living among humans secretly, this would not be the case, or be very rare. >> I can't see dragon riders in MChina -- the dragons (or at least one of them) rule the country, so they would very seldom give rides to humans. And, while I figured that it would be common knowledge that the emperor is a dragon, I also figured that he would assume human form to interact with his subjects - -- not to deceive them, but for convenience. However, I do see another possibility that should be considered. If the dragon-emperor rules in human form, he would be expected to gather a harem of human wives. The result could be a large number of half-dragon noble offspring. So the elite warriors of MChina would not be dragon riders but half-dragons. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:34:14 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] [O] Haldemar and Skothar In a message dated 96-07-25 04:18:18 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << Oh, I just remembered someone mentioned the Master's set map being wrong, because Prince Haldemar explored the area. >> Skothar seems to be the one continent that Haldemar never visited, but he did cite a number of instances that showed errors in the Master's set map in other areas. But he did decide to retain many of the place names, even though they later turned out to be inappropriate. Since the Master's set map gives us nothing but names, it is of little help except as a spur to the imagina- tion. I took the scanty information on that map, combined it with other known information, and created the Great Empire and other nations of Skothar. The region labeled "Empire of the Great Khan" on the Master's set map is my proposed location for MChina. Although the people of this country are ultimately descended from the Jennites and thus from horse nomads much like the Mongols, they would now have a more sedentary culture that could be patterned after that of China in the real world. This difference in their most ancient history should pose even fewer problems than the descent of the Ochaleans from the ancient Alphatians does. Incidentally, one assumption behind my work was that Haldemar could be mistaken but would not knowingly perpetrate a fraud. Thus, if he believes (as the available material indicates) that Skothar is a totally uncivilized continent, then that means that the Alphatians have had no recent contact with civilized Skotharians. Thus the Jennites and Minaeans are savage nomads and pirates, respectively, while MChina and the Tanagoro were for various reasons isolated from Alphatia and the nations further west. In the case of MChina, that nation could be larger than Alphatia and yet remain hidden -- it would have a population greater than that of Alphatia and even greater magical resources, along with a national philosophy that favors dealing with foreign problems by avoiding them. For most of Mystara's history, MChina is a sleeping giant, and anyone powerful enough to realize the truth about this nation should be wise enough to let it continue sleeping. Finally, I am quite pleased with those who have expressed ideas about Skothar that contradicted mine. I meant to stir up some discussion, and it is evident that I succeeded in that regard. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:50:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting In a message dated 96-07-25 20:25:34 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << For those of you with a sense of humor, the name could also be Heavy Ape :) >> Maybe we could use that as a race name -- perhaps the answer to "What do Spirit Folk call humans?" ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:50:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal In a message dated 96-07-25 18:20:20 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << Instead of coming from Sind, why not MIndia? >> Sind has already been described as having a culture much like that of India. It is rather remote from MChina, wherever it may be, but that is not a severe problem if you have some way for word to get around. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:47:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal In a message dated 96-07-25 18:20:20 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << In historic setting this nation will be located in the mountains between India and China, where the mountain help out its small army in defending the nation a bit. but since I don't have any map with me, I'm not sure where would be a good place for this nation. >> The mountains to the northeast of MChina would seem to be a perfect location. That is where I hid that "Tibet/Shangri-La" hybrid, which seems to be very close to what you are after. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:49:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture In a message dated 96-07-25 23:34:28 EDT, zagyg@io.com (Scott Johnson) writes: << Also, I'm considering combing my kanji dictionary to create an appropriate name for MJapan that would *sound* a little like Zyxl, so that when Thyatian explorers come across the island, they can continue calling it Zyxl just as our European explorers called the islands of Nippon Japan. Any opinions of that? >> But remember that the Gombarians also use the name Zyxl, so the distortion should not be too extreme. But from what little I know of the Japanese language, "Zyxl" is even more alien to them than it is to English speakers. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:49:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture In a message dated 96-07-25 17:51:39 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << BTW, how far away is Zyxl from the main continent of Sokthor anyway? >> It is not far from Skothar at all, as it is just off the southeastern tip. That would place Zyxl very near the Tanagoro and the related demi-ogres, not near any other Oriental culture. In any event, Dragon #200 seems to imply that demi-ogre merchants stop there fairly frequently. Also, the old hardbound _Oriental Adventures_ contains a good deal of information about Oriental religions and monsters. In the area of religion, it points out that Eastern religions are not mutually exclusive as Western ones are -- thus, while one cannot be at the same time a Christian and a Muslim, one can be at the same time a Buddhist and a Confucian. And many humanoid races are mentioned: bakemono, oni, tengu, and ningyo, among others. Much of this material was reproduced and updated in the later Monstrous Compendiums, so many of you who came along too late to have easy access to _Oriental Adventures_ may have AD&D monster stats for many of these creatures. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:50:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire In a message dated 96-07-25 09:27:07 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << The empire of the Great Khan could simply be the erroneous name that people from the Known World have given the nation, based on what little they know about it. What would the Chinese translation of "Great Empire" be? >> I will leave the Chinese name of MChina to somebody who knows Chinese, but several intriguing ideas have been suggested: 1) That "Central Prime" name and quote is a classic! If somebody writes up a gazetteer-like description of MChina, I would recommend including that quote in its entirety. 2) The "Great Empire" was simply what was left over after I removed "Khan". But it would do as an ethnocentric name -- which all of the names suggested for MChina seem to be. 3) It also occurred to me that the nation might be named after its ruler, and that the true name would be taboo to its subjects. Since they would consider their nation to be the center of all existence, they would not see the need to name it -- it is the barbarians who live in other nations that must be named, the people of MChina already know who they are. This refusal to name their country would also lead adventurers who venture forth from that nation to be mistaken for barbarians, as the lack of an accepted name for their people (beyond the Jennite/Minaean "sissies who live inland") would make it difficult for Alphatians and other westerners to identify them correctly. But wherever the borders of MChina are drawn, it should be at least as large as Bellisaria, and certainly larger than any two or three of its neighbors. I would also recommend limiting its access to the sea in order to minimize contact with Alphatia. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #178 ***************************** mystara-digest Saturday, 27 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 179 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:50:00 -0400 Subject: [Mystara][O] Dragons In a message dated 96-07-25 17:49:39 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << Humm, since the oriental and western dragon are quite different, I would consider as two different species, and don't follow the same hierarchy as the dragons. That is just a personal opinion tho. BTW, isn't the gold dragon in AD&D actually oriental dragons? At least in the first edition? I remember seeing the picture of oriental dragon in the old monster manual. >> I do recall reading somewhere that oriental dragons tend to be wingless, and sure enough, the gold dragon does have a wingless form. Also, with its lawful good alignment, it is closer in philosophy to the eastern dragon than any of the "evil" chromatic dragons, who are clearly western in inspiration. In dealing with dragons in MChina, we have two forces to contend with: on the one hand, we want to depict dragons as Chinese legend depicts them, but on the other hand, we want to preserve the unique Mystaran treatment of dragons. What does that mean? Here is what I would suggest: 1) Except for gold dragons, no metallic dragons exist on Mystara. That is no problem -- I would see gold dragons as the best accepted dragon rulers for MChina. 2) Most Mystaran dragons are of the chromatic variety. I would regard these dragons as rare visitors to MChina who only occasionally succeed in becoming emperor. The blue dragon (which does exist in Mystara) was mentioned as the archetypical "evil" dragon. Fine -- let's have at least one such blue dragon as a tyrant in MChina's past. 3) Gemstone dragons are, according to the Dragonlord trilogy, intruders from an alternate plane of existence. Unless they have a significant role in Chinese mythology, I would exclude them from MChina. 4) Finally, the AD&D game does have a number of oriental dragons, whose place in MChina we should consider: Chiang Lung: River Dragon, LN-LG Li Lung: Earth Dragon, N Lung Wang: Sea Dragon, N Pan Lung: Coiled Dragon, CN Shen Lung: Spirit Dragon, CN T'ien Lung: Celestial Dragon, LN Tun Mi Lung: Typhoon Dragon, NE Yu Lung: Carp Dragon, N If any of these translations are incorrect, then TSR fouled them up -- I took them all straight from the Monstrous Compendium/ ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 22:50:49 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] Half-dragon elite warriors >However, I do see another possibility that should be considered. If the >dragon-emperor rules in human form, he would be expected to gather a >harem of human wives. The result could be a large number of half-dragon >noble offspring. So the elite warriors of MChina would not be dragon riders >but half-dragons. I recently got the Council of Wyrms boxed set, and there are rules for half-dragon PCs (or NPCs, for that matter) within. /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 22:54:49 PDT Subject: [Mystara] [O] Dragons as rulers By the way, I think it would be neat if it the supposed dragon ruler(s) of MChina NEVER take dragon form in front of human subjects. It could be incredibly taboo, like punishable by death to see the ruler in draconic form. Then you could have a really interesting situation in that it would not be clearly evident that the ruler actually IS a dragon. It would largely be a matter of faith and (in secret) debate among the populace that the ruler is a real dragon and not just using it as some epithet for authority. /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:50:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture On Fri, 26 Jul 1996 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > But remember that the Gombarians also use the name Zyxl, so the distortion > should not be too extreme. But from what little I know of the Japanese > language, "Zyxl" is even more alien to them than it is to English speakers. > Well, something like 'Jikushiru' might work - in Japanese, 'u's tend not to get voiced as much, so it sounds like 'Jikshir', and the Japanese 'r' is halfway between the English 'r' and 'l', so it becomes more 'Jikshil' if you like - which is almost a Japanese pronunciation of 'Zyxl.' Certainly not much farther off than Nippon is from Japan. Also, who's to say that those Gombaran documents actually said Zyxl? They're supposedly written in te Gombaran language, I'd presume, so they've theoretically been translated into English - and if that's so, assuming they weren't focusing on Zyxl, they wouldn't have wanted to bother with a note saying '(This is the island known on the maps you have as 'Zyxl.')' So translating whatever the original word was to 'Zyxl' would actually make a certain amount of sense. - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 12 Feb 1980 05:22:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal >The Imortal Patrick described are fairly good. I just have >a couple of points to make. Instead of coming from Sind, >why not MIndia? Also, he should probably be bald. True Sind is MIndia. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:07:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal >The Imortal Patrick described are fairly good. I just have >a couple of points to make. Instead of coming from Sind, >why not MIndia? > I always thought that Sind *is* MIndia. I don't mean that's why he should not come from somewhere we make though... David Melik ------------------------------ From: mystara-mail@fishys.jammys.net (postmaster) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 11:09:09 EST Subject: [Mystara] timeline draft for AC 1014 DM> Exactly. Something I just thought of, relating to PC4 Night Howlers. DM> Back DM> in AC 1000 or so, the werecreatures in The Valley of the Wolves were DM> thinking about making there own principality... I wonder what's happening DM> with that... The Werewolves did create their Principality of Free Wolves, just as detailed in Night Howlers' timeline in the year AC 1004 or 1005 (don't have it with me). Prince Malachie married Diane of Malinbois, although there is no love in that relationship, just a marriage of convinience which permitted the creation of the Principality. His real love is Suzanne, which he tells everyone is his "long-lost sister." And in the year AC 1010-11 approximately, the law against werewolves was banned in ALL of Glantri, not just the Principality of Morlay-Malinbois. This goes along with the acceptance of humanoids as Glantrian citizens (yet dwarves and halflings are still illegal) Even with the ban on werecreatures removed, the White Wolf has still not revealed his identity to anyone. Kallatari Hopstride Michael Roy "I am not a thief!" mroy@fishys.jammys.net mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ From: mystara-mail@fishys.jammys.net (postmaster) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 11:21:33 EST Subject: [Mystara] timeline draft for AC 1014 If there is anyone out there who is an expert on the culture of Ylaruam, I could use a bit of help on the method of their government and succession. The GAZ 2 details that there are two factions that seek control of Ylaruam, notably the Kin and the Preceptors. From the description, it seems that each faction supports a different line of descendants of Al-Kalim as Sultan. Yet other references in the same book indicate that they run the place by forming a Council and have a good control over the laws of the land that way. Currently the Preceptors are in charge and therefore the Sultan refers to his Council of Precepts. My question is how does one faction take control of the nation from the other. Is it just the Council that is replaced? (hence forming of the Council of Kin) Or do they actually have to place their own Sultan on the throne? Would they wait until the former Sultan dies or steps down, or would they perhaps force it along, starting some civil war in Ylaruam? The reason for this is the World Games in Ylaruam in AC 1014. Someone has brought the factions to my attention, and the intense dislike of foreigners and mages by the Kin faction. I could be a good development if the Kin faction sees the thousands of Infidels in their land for the World Games as the last straw they will take from the Preceptors and decide to overthrow them... so would it be more of a political campaign to gain the seats of power and run the Council, or would there be a more military tactic where they overthrow the Sultan physicaly and place their own? If it is political, could control of the nation switch from one faction to the other while the same Sultan remains on the throne because the Council has more power, or would their first enactment be changing Sultans? I find that GAZ 2 gives very little information concerning the government of Ylaruam... so if anyone knows how real-world arabic/desert nations it was based on work, feel free to post that information up as well. Kallatari Hopstride Michael Roy "I am not a thief!" mroy@fishys.jammys.net mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 21:56:05 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting >A cavalry of Dragon-Riders would be wonderful in a more mythical Europe >setting. For the MChina setting, I agree that Dragons should be >extremely rare >(at least as far as the commoners know). > I always like to go by mythology, so I agree with what was said about the dragons too. David Melik ------------------------------ From: plegrand Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 11:11:47 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] [O] Inspirational homepages Hello again, Still working on Averoigne and gnool I've found time to search the net about Chinese stuff. I found two sites which could be of interest : www.waltontech.com/ch/culture/index.htm There you'll find many informations about Chinese fairy tales, astrology, religion, philisophy and so on... zow00.desy.de:8000/~hungbhy/rpg.html This a page about a rpg set in a Chinese setting. Of course we are working on original stuff but maybe some ideas could be borrowed, and reading such pages could give us a Chinese mood. About dragons I prefer to think that the whole country is the Dragon (does this theory belong to Chinese alchemy)...The wall is its spine, the chasm its bowels, when it rains the Dragon cries or sweats, when there is thunder the Dragon roars or fights. Far below the temple city of the Emperor there's a cave where the Emperor drinks the blood of the Dragon to have immortality and full knowledge of its land and its inhabitant. But the more blood the Emperor drinks the more its soul dissolves in the land and in the spirit of the Dragon. Some Emperors are so close to the Dragon, and so so far from the 'reality' that they have to be removed. The spirit of the Dragon inhabits every inhabitants of MChina so when there's a revolution it's an idea of the Dragon, so say the priests close to the people. The Dragon has enemies from the inside and from the outside. Inside enemies, sometimes called worms or diseases, want to take control of the Dragon or they want to corrupt it (by drugs, alcohol). They are like hunters who want a part of an animal (its fur, its meat, its feathers) ignoring their greed will kill the animal, they don't see the Dragon as a whole thing. Outside enemies are the beasts who roams around the Dragon to kill it, you From ???@??? Sun Jul 28 09:49:19 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA10187; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 04:35:11 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA17531 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:05:18 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:05:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199607271805.NAA17531@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #179 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5fef6b9a3bf3b4ba7d70317c17f7a154 got the Hyaena (the gnoll nation), the Raven (some barbarians, maybe jennites) and so on. In fact every nation got an animal name, and of course ther's a legend about each animal or monsters. I thought of this as I wrote it, I hope my English will improve. About bookkeeping, maybe is it time to make a list of all the ideas we had. That would be better than checking all the post. As I remember there's some central questions : - Where is MChina ? - What are its neighbors ? - What is MChina ? Maybe it would be better to have an agreement about the organization of our work before Joe Duncan suffocates under the great number of posts ;) Would it be possible to take the presentation of a gaz and then dispatch the work in groups. A group working on flora and fauna, another one on religion, one on magic, one on government and so on. Of course it's impossible to design a nation in this manner if every workgroups doesn't exchange its works every week. That's just an idea, any comments ? Pascal ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 12:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal > This is pretty fascinating stuff for a Westerner, or at least for this one. > What do you think of the Oriental pantheons in Deities and Demigods/Legends > and Lore etc? Where does that (polytheism) fit into the milieu of Buddhism, > Confucianism, Taoism and folk tales? I only flip through L&L once, and don't remember much about it. Polytheism is what the commoners "believes". Most people don't know whether a "god" came from Buddhism, Taoism, or somewhere else, nor do they really care. > What's the "Immortal Law" you refer to above? I was talking about Chinese belief that important people are incarnation of minor god, etc. In game term, that would mean immortal will directly involves in mortal realm. However, something I just throught up is that those people were incarnation of an old secret race of ... whatever. This race are very interested in walfare of MChina, but do not want to directly involved. So, they take form of human and work themself into important position when MChina is in trouble. They could do this by either polymorph into human and make up their childhood history when they first met someone(most of those people have a very humble begining, which would not be difficult to fiberacate, especially if the superace have some mind altering power). Or maybe they can "plant" themself into a woman's womb and came into human's world that way. I like the idea of a super-race instead of minor immortals so we don't have to spend time creating a whole new pantheon. The major gods could just be the same immortals that have already been published, just took a different name when in MChina, with a few addition immortal that is MChina specific. > In an earlier post you mentioned that the older, original Great Wall is in > fact a mound, while the stone wall people picture was only built within the > past few hundred years. Are you saying that the original Great Wall was > built as a mound, or that all that remains of it is a mound? Sorry, I don't really know. > Thank you again, I think your contributions are a terrific opportunity to > get Oriental cultures "right." Just doing what I can. BTW, I left Taiwan before I even finished elementary school, so by no mean I'm an authority on China. So if someone found different info on what I described, feel free to correct me. > P.S. How do we refer to you politely, as Shin, as Yu, or something else? Just call me John :) While we at it, we can go a little into Chinese names. In China, family names is generally placed first and generally are only one word (each word is one syllable in Chinese), although there are some two word last names too, and they seems to be more common in the past. Longer last name can also be heard once a while, but generally mean the family come from outer region of China, such as Mongol, Manchuria, etc, and they sometime shorten their family name once they intergrated into Chinese society. Given name are generally one or two word. Traditionally, there are many families that have strict restrictions on Given Names. For example, the first word of all children from the same generation needs to be the same word, and the second words need to have some shared characteristic. Like they all have to be related to water etc. and those rules is kept in the family shrine that is located at the family's place of ancestry. Using my name as example, in Chinese it is Yu Shin Chyang. Yu is my family name, both of my sisters have Shin as the first of the given name. Our family book is back in China, so we didn't follow the strict family rule on naming. All cousin with same last name (ie, children of you father's brother) also consider to be in the same generation and should have same first word for the given name. BTW, these rules are gnereally followed by more educated families, or middle class or better. When your first worry is earn enough money to survive, you tend to not worry about names as much. Traditionally, boys from educated family often have a personal names too, which is used among close friend. Commoners name is generally much simpler. A street vendor generally have names like Wong Six (for been the sixth children of the family) or Tang Big (for been the first born, or just a big guy), etc. Adventurers generally like to carry some nice sounding nicknames that Timely Rain for someone like to help out other, White Serpent in the Wave for someone who is a good swimmer and have fair skin, etc. Sorry for talk so much on fluffs, I'll try to cut down a bit in the future. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. Shelby Michlin pontificated: > > -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > > -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > > From: Shin Chyang Yu \ Internet: (scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia. > edu) > > Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal > > Sigh... I was hoping we don't have to get into religion of Chinese or > MChinese > > for a while, but since someone brought it up, I going to make a few > comments. > > Chinese religion is VERY confusing. Most people are just not that > religious. > > Even the religious type (monk, priest, etc), are different from their > western > > counterpart that they are more interested in seeking self "enlightment" > instead > > of converting others. The "religion" that the general population follow is > a > > mix of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and the folk tales all rolled into > one. > > And the attitude toward religion is very different from the Westerner's > point > > of view. I'm not even sure where to start on this subject area. Should > I > > start thinking of creating a MChinese's pantheons of Immortals? That > might > > take a while. Also, could the "Immortal Law" be different for MOrient > than > > those applied to the Known World. As I said before, Chinese belief that > many > > special people in its history are incarnation of heavenly creature/minor > god > > etc. One way to incorporate that in the Mystara campaign is that they are > > immortals reborn into mortal form, with their immortal memory wiped. Upon > their > > death, their will take their place in the Immortal rank again. > > As for undeads, the mindless type (zombie, skeletons, etc) are no > different > > then moving tables, and can be destroyed without penalties. Buddhist > don't > > care much about the body, believing only the soul is important. As for > the > > intelligent undeads, I'm not sure what their view is. I can't really see > them > > just run up and kill those creatures, especially those that are not > totally > > evil. They probably will attempt to reason with those undeads first, get > them > > to see that holding on to life this way is wrong, and get them to give up > their > > undead statue willingly. So perhaps they will have the power of calm > > intelligent undead down and get the undeads listen to them, and if the > power is > > successfully used, the undead need to make a saving throw, or "dissipate." > > -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- > > Hello, > > This is pretty fascinating stuff for a Westerner, or at least for this one. > What do you think of the Oriental pantheons in Deities and Demigods/Legends > and Lore etc? Where does that (polytheism) fit into the milieu of Buddhism, > Confucianism, Taoism and folk tales? > > What's the "Immortal Law" you refer to above? > > I like what you've described for intelligent undead, please continue in this > vein. > > In an earlier post you mentioned that the older, original Great Wall is in > fact a mound, while the stone wall people picture was only built within the > past few hundred years. Are you saying that the original Great Wall was > built as a mound, or that all that remains of it is a mound? > > Thank you again, I think your contributions are a terrific opportunity to > get Oriental cultures "right." > > Shelby Michlin > > P.S. How do we refer to you politely, as Shin, as Yu, or something else? > - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! Mystarans, The Savage Coast is now available for downloading from MPGN. There is a link to it on the (still boring) Mystara Mailing List home page, at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > Sind has already been described as having a culture much like that of > India. It is rather remote from MChina, wherever it may be, but that is > not a severe problem if you have some way for word to get around. I'm sorry, I never read up on Sind very closely, and I guess due to all that desert out there, I assumed that it is based on middle- east instead of India. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] Haldemar and Skothar > In the case of MChina, that nation could be larger than Alphatia and yet > remain hidden -- it would have a population greater than that of Alphatia > and even greater magical resources, along with a national philosophy that > favors dealing with foreign problems by avoiding them. For most of Although MChina might have greater magical resources, they should be not as orginized as Alphatia. Most of the really powerful magic user are more interested in study by himself in some secluded mountain than join a guild or involve in politics. > Mystara's history, MChina is a sleeping giant, and anyone powerful enough > to realize the truth about this nation should be wise enough to let it > continue > sleeping. "Let Chung-Eun sleep, for if it wakes, Mystara will be sorry" slightly modified quote of Napoleon :) - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #179 ***************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 28 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 180 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > Also, the old hardbound _Oriental Adventures_ contains a good deal of > information about Oriental religions and monsters. In the area of religion, > it points out that Eastern religions are not mutually exclusive as Western > ones are -- thus, while one cannot be at the same time a Christian and a > Muslim, one can be at the same time a Buddhist and a Confucian. Yes, when I said commoner believe in a mix of Buddhism, Taoism, etc, I don't mean that one guy believe in Buddhism while another believe in Taoism. I meant that one person belive in all of those religion/ philosophy. I have seen temples warship both Buddhist, Tao, and folk story "gods". When thinking of Chinese attitude toward religion, it might be easier to think how people realate to gods in Greek and Roman mythology. > Something I forgot to mentioned in an earlier post about magical resources in MChina. MChina probably don't have that many magic users as that is probably not as a honorable a profession as being a fighter. Commoners might be scared of known magic-user. But there always seems to be a bunch of powerful magical items laying around for hero of the story :) - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Oriental setting Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > I can't see dragon riders in MChina -- the dragons (or at least one of them) > rule the country, so they would very seldom give rides to humans. And, while > > I figured that it would be common knowledge that the emperor is a dragon, > I also figured that he would assume human form to interact with his subjects > not to deceive them, but for convenience. Perhaps dragon-kin riders. As I said before, dragon can mate and breed offspring with almost anything. For example a very good horse is some time called dragon stallions. As for the emperor, he might not able to take the form of dragon for one reason or the other. A true ruler should be a golden dragon, but one can never tell whether the emperor is the true ruler or not. Some of the famous usurper or corrupted emperors are said to be incarnation of toad, giant rat, etc. > However, I do see another possibility that should be considered. If the > dragon-emperor rules in human form, he would be expected to gather a > harem of human wives. The result could be a large number of half-dragon > noble offspring. So the elite warriors of MChina would not be dragon riders > but half-dragons. Perhaps dragon blood is needed for being a noblity. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:40:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] Half-dragon elite warriors In a message dated 96-07-26 03:11:58 EDT, dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu (David 'Azure' Leland) writes: << I recently got the Council of Wyrms boxed set, and there are rules for half-dragon PCs (or NPCs, for that matter) within. >> There is one critical difference between the half-dragons of MChina and those of _Council of Wyrms_: The MChina half-dragons would be half- human and thus have no racial abilities to give up for dragon abilities. But Dragon #206 proposes a way of handling such characters: they simply gain one dragon ability per even level until they reach maximum level. One interesting possibility that we might want to introduce into an MChina campaign is that a half-dragon who reaches maximum level could go on some sort of quest to become a full dragon. If he is successful, he will become his father's heir. At that point, of course, he would be retired from play and become an NPC (if he isn't one already). ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 14:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Dragons Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > > In dealing with dragons in MChina, we have two forces to contend with: on > the one hand, we want to depict dragons as Chinese legend depicts them, > but on the other hand, we want to preserve the unique Mystaran treatment > of dragons. What does that mean? Here is what I would suggest: IMO, it might be easier to consider the oriental dragon as a different specie of dragon, and don't need to follow the published rules. > > 2) Most Mystaran dragons are of the chromatic variety. I would regard these > dragons as rare visitors to MChina who only occasionally succeed in becoming > emperor. The blue dragon (which does exist in Mystara) was mentioned as > the archetypical "evil" dragon. Fine -- let's have at least one such blue > dragon > as a tyrant in MChina's past. Slight clearfication. The blue dragon was ordered to cause trouble by the chief god. Generally the story goes like this. People down in the mortal realm got too corupted, or did something that angers the emporer of the god, he send down the blue dragon to end the dynasty, but right after that, some book keeping god mentioned that the current dynasty are fated to rule for many more years, so the emporer god send down the White Tiger to stop the Blue Dragon. > 4) Finally, the AD&D game does have a number of oriental dragons, whose > place in MChina we should consider: of those I can translate, they seems to be correct, but see my comment. > Chiang Lung: River Dragon, LN-LG Correct. > Li Lung: Earth Dragon, N Can't figure it out. > Lung Wang: Sea Dragon, Ni Translated into Dragon King. There are 4 of them, one for each sea (east, south, north, west). Quite important figures in celestial court, especially the one of east sea. But often got beat up, then file complient to the celestial court. > Pan Lung: Coiled Dragon, CN Shouldn't be a different specie of dragon. Dragon often depicted in painting coiled together, like a snake. But there are no Laying on top of Treasure Dragon ... > Shen Lung: Spirit Dragon, CN Don't know, could be god dragon? > T'ien Lung: Celestial Dragon, LN Sky Dragon. > Tun Mi Lung: Typhoon Dragon, NE Not sure. > Yu Lung: Carp Dragon, N Fish Dragon. My guess is the idea come from the Chinese myth that in a certain rapid on Yang-Tzy river, carps often leap out of water while swimming up river (like the salmon in the Pacific Northwest). Legend say that if the carp can jump over a point called Dragon Gate, they will get transformed into a dragon and flys away. I don't think that was a very good way of seperating different Oriental Dragons. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 20:37:19 +0000 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal >I was talking about Chinese belief that important people are incarnation >of minor god, etc. In game term, that would mean immortal will directly >involves in mortal realm. Not necessarily. Immortals have 3 distinct forms, as given in Wrath of the Immortals. The Manifestation form is their awesome form in which they have so many powers that they are effectively invincible against mortals. The immortal's law states simply that an immortal is forbidden to appear in manifestation form on the prime plane. They are allowed to appear in incorporeal form (appearing in dreams, etc.) or in a Mortal Identity. An immortal is allowed to take on human (or other mortal) form on the prime plane in order to further his or her objectives. A glance at recent Mystaran history shows two obvious examples: Etienne d'Ambreville, prince of Glantri and the immortal Rad, and Anya, former chief advisor and mistress of Emperor Thincol I and the immortal Vanya. The incarnations of emperors could be true immortals without violating the Law. I point this out only for clarification; I do not necessarily disagree with the idea of a superrace. >Also, he should probably be bald. True >follower of his will be pacifist to the extream. They >will not allow to kill anything unless it is extreamly >evil and have no chance of redemption. This applies to >all animals and probably intelligent plants. As for >undeads, the mindless type (zombie, skeletons, etc) are >no different then moving tables, and can be destoryed >without penalties. Buddhist don't care much about the >body, believing only the soul is important. As for the >intellgent undeads, I'm not sure what their view is. I >can't really see them just run up and kill those creatures, >especially those that are not totally evil. They probably >will attempt to reason with those undeads first, get them >to see that holding on to life this way is wrong, and get >them to give up their undead statue willingly. So perhaps >they will have the power of calm intelligent undead down >and get the undeads listen to them, and if the power is >successfully used, the undead need to make a saving throw, >or "dissipate." Undead that is pawn of other undead should >regain its free will at during the time of conversation. You're completely right regarding the baldness, it just slipped my mind somehow. As for the rest, it is pretty much exactly in the same vein as what I had in m>BTW, this will not be the religion of the mass for MChina. >It will fit nicely for one of the more advanced culture that >neighboring MChina that I was thinking about. Due to the >religious beliefs, they are contented to stay in their own >little kingdom and advance their various art to a very high >degree. In historic setting this nation will be located in >the mountains between India and China, where the mountain >help out its small army in defending the nation a bit. but >since I don't have any map with me, I'm not sure where would >be a good place for this nation. I agree that this should not be the primary philosophy of MChina. The MTibet/Nepal/Bhutan(?) that you seem to be describing is an excellent idea, although it seems that it would be quite a bit of work to create a new MIndia when Sind is already there. THis philospophy would probably also be followed in the jungle south of MChina (MBurma and MThailand) >I can't comment on the stats etc, as I'm not familiar >with Immortals rules. He does seem to have rather impressive powers though; >too impressive? Also, I'm not sure that I see the rationale for the link to >undead, specifically the emphasis on "de-animating" and releasing the spirit >. Wouldn't this be that spirit's karma? The Immortal Law at the beginning of this post was designed specifically to balance these powers. I never went into Mortal Identities because it seems rather premature. The idea presented in Wrath of the Immortals is that a weak immortal is far more powerful than any mortal. They should not be used simply as monsters, but more as all-powerful NPCs, according to the rules set forth there. If anyone who is familiar with the rules for immortals could reply, I would appreciate input on whether Rohindartha should be about at Eternal level where I placed him, or should he be less powerful? As for the undead stuff, I was unsure about it myself. John seemed to back up the original description, while Shelby disagreed. I would appreciate further input regarding the issue of undead in MBuddhism. From ???@??? Thu Aug 01 11:31:04 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA21119; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:36:15 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA22888 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:13:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:13:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199607282213.RAA22888@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #180 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2fab578a765b5271602bae65bf3e4d89 Status: RO BTW, I forgot to include this description in the original description: Rohin means "on the upward path" in Sindhi, and -dartha was simply added to be reminiscent of Siddartha. Thanks to those who took the time to respond. I appreciate it, even if I disagreed with parts of your posts. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 17:06:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal In a message dated 96-07-27 13:55:16 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << I was talking about Chinese belief that important people are incarnation of minor god, etc. In game term, that would mean immortal will directly involves in mortal realm. >> That belief is already part of Mystara, in a sense. The Immortals can and do assume mortal Identities, which are indistinguishable from normal mortals for most purposes. It would certainly seem likely that many of the Emperor's advisors would be avatars of this sort. Naturally, they will most likely be of maximum possible level (36th for OD&D, or 30th for AD&D). ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 17:04:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Dragons In a message dated 96-07-27 14:50:26 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << Yu Lung: Carp Dragon, N Fish Dragon. My guess is the idea come from the Chinese myth that in a certain rapid on Yang-Tzy river, carps often leap out of water while swimming up river (like the salmon in the Pacific Northwest). Legend say that if the carp can jump over a point called Dragon Gate, they will get transformed into a dragon and flys away. >> The AD&D version of this dragon is a fish-like dragon that mutates into one of the other dragon types when it reaches a certain age. It is interesting to see how far that depiction has strayed from the legend you cited. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 17:08:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] Haldemar and Skothar In a message dated 96-07-27 14:12:53 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << Although MChina might have greater magical resources, they should be not as orginized as Alphatia. Most of the really powerful magic user are more interested in study by himself in some secluded mountain than join a guild or involve in politics. >> Actually, from what I have read about Alphatia, this would make MChina exactly as organized as Alphatia. The Empress of Alphatia has a tough time getting the kings and queens who owe allegiance to her to take enough time out from their magical studies to attend to matters of state. But if the rulers of MChina are not generally spellcasters, then that would actually make MChina more organized -- unless, of course, the politics and intrigue of the Imperial court are set up so as to keep all the lesser nobles at one another's throats. ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 22:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting > > >A cavalry of Dragon-Riders would be wonderful in a more mythical Europe > >setting. For the MChina setting, I agree that Dragons should be > >extremely rare > >(at least as far as the commoners know). > > I've always liked the idea that whenever a dragon moves, the world shakes. By that I mean to say dragons are only personally involved in the biggest events of the continent. This has not been the case with how AD&D dragons are portrayed, but I think this sort of atmosphere would be particularly appropriate for an oriental setting. This, however, also implies : a) dragons are old b) there aren't that many of them; there are certainly no "young" dragons for would-be adventurers to go out and slay as the baddie of the week. c) they're whopping powerful d) dragon riders? You're kidding, right? Maybe riding weeny eastern dragons, but oriental dragons are the next best thing to the gods in the Celestial Bureaucracy. Let a mortal get on it's back? Hah! He'd better be a divinely appointed champion with proper paperwork from the Heavens, and even then, maybe the dragon will just ferry him one-way, carrying him on a claw or something. :) As an aside, I have an oriental setting I created for an RPG I'm working on. It's quite lengthy, and only part done (but enough to play off), so I wasn't sure whether to post it or not, for ideas and feedback since the list is presently concerned with making an oriental setting. If anyone is interested in seeing this, and critiquing this, e-mail me privately at "seah@sfu.ca" Simon :) ------------------------------ From: "Dean Gilbert" Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 22:33:49 +0000 Subject: [Mystara] Anyone in Montreal? Just curious if there was anyone running a Mystara game in Montreal. I'm headed there in a month to go to McGill. ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sun, 28 Jul 96 09:12:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Saturday, 27-Jul-96 08:37 PM > From: Patrick \ Internet: > (dennis.sullivan.family@worldnet.att.net) > >I can't comment on the stats etc, as I'm not familiar > >with Immortals rules. He does seem to have rather impressive powers though; > >too impressive? Also, I'm not sure that I see the rationale for the link to > >undead, specifically the emphasis on "de-animating" and releasing the spirit > >. Wouldn't this be that spirit's karma? > The Immortal Law at the beginning of this post was designed specifically to > balance these powers. I never went into Mortal Identities because it seems > rather premature. The idea presented in Wrath of the Immortals is that a weak > immortal is far more powerful than any mortal. They should not be used simply > as monsters, but more as all-powerful NPCs, according to the rules set forth > there. If anyone who is familiar with the rules for immortals could reply , I > would appreciate input on whether Rohindartha should be about at Eternal level > where I placed him, or should he be less powerful? As for the undead stuff, I > was unsure about it myself. John seemed to back up the original description, > while Shelby disagreed. I would appreciate further input regarding the issue > of undead in MBuddhism. - ------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Armed with my brand-spankin'-new copy of WOTI, I withdraw my comment regarding how powerful your immortal is. I might place him a bit less powerful, ie not an Eternal, but that's only a matter of opinion. Shelby ------------------------------ From: Leblanc Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:58:41 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] great ones Hello, to all, Im new on this mailing list and new to mailing list. 2 days ago I did not know what a mailing list was. Correct me if I do some kind of mistake ... In ad&d mystara product I was hinted a few times about the great ones. I also posseses some old d&d stuff, were they say that the great ones are kind of immortals to the immortals, would anybody have more info on them or know where I can get info ( maybe products name, my Rpg store still sell old d&d gazeteer and other things like that ). Red Wolf, lupin ranger ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:58:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting In a message dated 96-07-28 02:22:20 EDT, seah@sfu.ca (Simon Seah) writes: << b) there aren't that many of them; there are certainly no "young" dragons for would-be adventurers to go out and slay as the baddie of the week. >> In fact, I would recommend that any Western adventurer in MChina who mentions slaying dragons would henceforth be treated by the locals as the barbarian that they always suspected him of being. To get an idea of how much such an adventurer would be loathed, picture an Eastern adventurer who shows up in MEurope and casually talks about killing kings and bishops. ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 14 Feb 1980 04:52:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] Haldemar and Skothar > >The region labeled "Empire of the Great Khan" on the Master's set map is >my proposed location for MChina. Although the people of this country are How about limiting it to the southeast corner of that area and maybe bordering on Tangor bay? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 14 Feb 1980 04:52:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire > >I will leave the Chinese name of MChina to somebody who knows Chinese, but >several intriguing ideas have been suggested: > >1) That "Central Prime" name and quote is a classic! If somebody writes up >a gazetteer-like description of MChina, I would recommend including that >quote in its entirety. This one has my vote. I loved that quote.... > >But wherever the borders of MChina are drawn, it should be at least as large >as Bellisaria, and certainly larger than any two or three of its neighbors. > I >would also recommend limiting its access to the sea in order to minimize >contact with Alphatia. It should only have access to the sea on it's eastern border. That would limit it's possible contact with Alphatia. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 14 Feb 1980 04:52:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] A place for the Oriental setting ><< There's only one small mention of > this place in Dragon #200, > it mentions the "Warriors of Zyxl". ( Zyxl is, again, probably an erroneous > Thyatian name ). >> > >I missed that reference, but it is important. Since the name Zyxl is given >in >a document by a Gombarian merchant, I would lean towards accepting the >name as real rather than a Thyatian invention. From that reference, we >know that Zyxl is dominated by warriors and that the demi-ogres can visit >and trade with them. The rest is left to our imaginations. Fair enough, but thats all right. Feudal Japan was dominated by a warrior class. It fits, although the name is rather strange, perhaps the demi-ogres and thyatians can't pronounce the name right. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 14 Feb 1980 04:52:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal At 12:47 AM 7/26/96 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-07-25 18:20:20 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu >(Shin Chyang Yu) writes: > ><< In historic setting this nation will be located in > the mountains between India and China, where the mountain > help out its small army in defending the nation a bit. but > since I don't have any map with me, I'm not sure where would > be a good place for this nation. >> > >The mountains to the northeast of MChina would seem to be a perfect >location. That is where I hid that "Tibet/Shangri-La" hybrid, which seems >to be very close to what you are after. Do you mean in the area marked "Nentsun Plateau" on the HW map? Hmmmm... Tibet/Shangri-La hybrid? Did you develop this for MOrient? Could you expand on this? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #180 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 30 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 181 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:55:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] New Oriental Immortal In a message dated 96-07-28 18:17:52 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << Do you mean in the area marked "Nentsun Plateau" on the HW map? Hmmmm... Tibet/Shangri-La hybrid? Did you develop this for MOrient? Could you expand on this? >> Yes, that is exactly where I would place it. And no, I have not developed it beyond a brief description -- I will leave that to somebody who actually knows something about Tibet beyond its location. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:55:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire In a message dated 96-07-28 17:57:50 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << It should only have access to the sea on it's eastern border. That would limit it's possible contact with Alphatia. >> I think you are going too far in making real world analogies here. The problem with MChina having access to a sea on its eastern border is that the geography of Skothar is simply unsuitable for that purpose. China's coastal regions are lowlands, while the eastern coast of Skothar is almost completely mountainous. However, given the general lack of interest in exploration by China/MChina, eliminating the coast of MChina entirely would not drastically distort matters. If you consider area 10 to be too big for MChina, I would recommend as an alternative dividing the region in two. The western half would be inhabited by semi-nomadic Jennite tribes, while the eastern half would be MChina. This region would be sufficiently isolated by its geography that Alphatia would have no reason to investigate it. Furthermore, its westernmost border would be located in an area well beyond Alphatia's reach. ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:13:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture At 12:49 AM 7/26/96 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-07-25 23:34:28 EDT, zagyg@io.com (Scott Johnson) >writes: > ><< Also, I'm considering combing my kanji dictionary to create an appropriate > name for MJapan that would *sound* a little like Zyxl, so that when > Thyatian explorers come across the island, they can continue calling it > Zyxl just as our European explorers called the islands of Nippon Japan. > Any opinions of that? >> > >But remember that the Gombarians also use the name Zyxl, so the distortion >should not be too extreme. But from what little I know of the Japanese >language, "Zyxl" is even more alien to them than it is to English speakers. > Who and where are the Gombarians? I'm not sure if I've even heard of them... David M. David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net _______ __ __ _________ / | \ / \/ \ / \ | | | | | | o o | | | | \ / | ) ( | | /|\ | \ / | \___/ | \_/_|_\_/ , \/ , & \_______/ ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:13:46 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting At 05:24 PM 7/25/96 PDT, you wrote: ><<> I like the idea of having the wall thing be underground. Perhaps a chasm >> would be good too, as Kaviyd mentioned, and it still could be sort of an >> underground wall. It could be the major place where the land of luxury >> above and the war below met, if we use that idea. I don't think it's such a >> good idea to isolate and divide the area so much, with powerful magic, like >> fire or lightning or mind affecting stuff. I think the wall should greatly >> hinder attacks, but not totally. > >Well, I wasn't intended for it to be impentrable. Just something that >is really impressive looking and maybe hurt a bit. If you are just an >average grunt orc, do you want to go through a big wall of lightning >even if it might only do a point or two of damage if you run very >quickly. Also, along the wall, there will be regualar fort that >allows travlers and traders to pass through. But that is just mine >idea. A big underground wall is a pretty cool idea too, just not >as impressive looking. I sort of want the wall to be a major land >mark. > There's no reason why we can't have both an over and underground wall... That way it would fit with keeping the barbarians overground out, and that neat idea of a land of luxry with a bloody war below could still be used. What does everyone think about that? David Melik David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net _______ __ __ _________ / | \ / \/ \ / \ | | | | | | o o | | | | \ / | ) ( | | /|\ | \ / | \___/ | \_/_|_\_/ , \/ , & \_______/ ------------------------------ From: David Melik Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:13:37 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture At 09:07 PM 7/25/96 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > >> We not necessarily have to limit ourself to one MJapan. If people like >> we could develop one MJapan at region more close to its real world >> counterpart, and another one at the tropic in Zyxl (perhaps a old >> colonization attempt that later lost contact with the mother country). >> It would be interesting to see what a tropical Japan will be like. >> Beside consider we already have a hot desert right next to a >> scandinavian region already, a little temperature change can also be >> explained with various way. > >I was thinking of something like that, and even had an an idea of how to >explain Zyxl as being mid-temperate to cold despite its latitude. >Basically, one of Japan's creation myths involves a giant dragon being >slain, and I believe its body became part of Japan. (It's been a while >since I read the myth.) In Mystara, it would be quite possible to imagine >a myth of an epic battle with an immense white dragon, so cold that when >it died and fell into the ocean, it chilled the waters and lands for >hundreds of miles around, for thousands of years, and its body was covered >in ice and became one of the northernmost points of Zyxl. (I also recall >the battle involving the legendary three treasures of the Emperor - the >sword, the mirror, and the curved jewel, which could easily be real magic >items or even artifacts in MJapan.) What do people think of this idea? >(It doesn't even have to be a factual legend - just the way the people of >Zyxl believe it to be. The real reason might be ancient magic, or >Immortal intervention, or some combination of those with the events of the >legend, or something else.) > Those are excellent ideas! I think we should do something like that. The Red Curse came to mind when I was reading that for some reason. Lets see, the dragon part sounds good to me, and so does immortal intervention/ancient magic, like a powerful being got mad because the dragon was slain and did something like froze the area. Or Blackmoor could have something to do with it. Does anyone know some good books on mythology of various parts of the Orient? I suppose I should start reading it, and maybe other people should too... David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net _______ __ __ _________ / | \ / \/ \ / \ | | | | | | o o | | | | \ / | ) ( | | /|\ | \ / | \___/ | \_/_|_\_/ , \/ , & \_______/ ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 00:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] Inspirational homepages > About dragons I prefer to think that the whole country is the Dragon (does > this theory belong to Chinese alchemy)...The wall is its spine, the chasm > its bowels, when it rains the Dragon cries or sweats, when there is thunder > the Dragon roars or fights. Based on Chinese's creation myth, a giant pop out an egg when the universe was in primal chaos. He pushed sky and earth apart, then after he died, his blood became rivers/ocean, hair became forest, eyes became sun and moon, etc. But we could substitute him with a dragon. Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 00:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Dragons Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > In a message dated 96-07-27 14:50:26 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu > (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: > > << Yu Lung: Carp Dragon, N > Fish Dragon. My guess is the idea come from the Chinese > myth that in a certain rapid on Yang-Tzy river, carps often leap > out of water while swimming up river (like the salmon in the > Pacific Northwest). Legend say that if the carp can jump over > a point called Dragon Gate, they will get transformed into a > dragon and flys away. >> > > The AD&D version of this dragon is a fish-like dragon that mutates into > one of the other dragon types when it reaches a certain age. It is > interesting to see how far that depiction has strayed from the legend > you cited. Consider TSR, I'm not really surprised :) BTW, how much does other mystaran culture differ from their real world counter-part. I'm just curious how much liberty did TSR took when they created their world. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 00:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: > In fact, I would recommend that any Western adventurer in MChina who mentions > slaying dragons would henceforth be treated by the locals as the barbarian > that they always suspected him of being. To get an idea of how much such an > adventurer would be loathed, picture an Eastern adventurer who shows up in > MEurope and casually talks about killing kings and bishops. Well, he will probably be either a: attacked by a lynch mob, b: awed the locals so much that they going to warship him, or c: consider him as a foolish western and might give him some candy for a funny tale :) This could cause some confusion when the adventure party come from Known World not knowing that the Moriental dragon is vastly different from the Western dragon. Imagine, the party overheard the locals complient about that the dragons have brought too much rain lately that is flooding the farmland, and offered to kill the dragons... - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: plegrand Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 06:55:26 +-200 Subject: RE: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture Bonjour, Does anyone know some good books on mythology of various parts of the Orient? I suppose I should start reading it, and maybe other people should too... Some days ago I have posted something with 2 URL dealing with Chinese mythology and culture but I'm wondering if someone get it... I spoke too about the Dragon and its use in MChina. Right now I'm going to work (my Internet account is a private one) but that evening I will post it again with some new interesting URL. And now an off topic question : how many people there speak French, I'd like to know if they know of books about the Orient in French. Au revoir (let's go to work...) begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A$$`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &``P!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```#\`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!M>7-T87)A+6Q :6\N M8V]M`%--5% `;7ES=&%R82UL0&EO+F-O;0``'@`", $````%````4TU44 `` M```>``,P`0```!$```!M>7-T87)A+6Q :6\N8V]M``````,`%0P!`````P#^ M#P8````>``$P`0```!,````G;7ES=&%R82UL0&EO+F-O;2<```(!"S !```` M%@```%--5% Z35E35$%202U,0$E/+D-/30````,``#D`````"P! .@$````" M`?8/`0````0````````#T"P!"( '`!@```!)4$TN36EC`' ``0```"(```!213H@6TUY`!X,`0````0```!&05@`'@`?# $````-```` M*S,S(#0X-#@U,3(S``````,`!A Z5=!J`P`'$/X!```>``@0`0```&4```!" M3TY*3U52+$1/15-!3EE/3D5+3D]74T]-14=/3T1"3T]+4T].35E42$],3T=9 M3T9605))3U534$%25%-/1E1(14]2245.5#])4U504$]314E32$]53$135$%2 M5%)%041)3D=)``````(!"1 !````S@(``,H"``""! ``3%I&=:T[R5G_``H! M#P(5`J@%ZP*#`% "\@D"`&-H"L!S970R-P8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<')"<1'B2,C4U%^P'%L$-H@M@;F:1K@ M'B$=?QZ"1&\'D04`<'D"(&4@:VYO30?@21T:!@860+@&<@:9QT+"&1(N `P'EB(?#' M'F E@ 7 <&5O"U A\.LG9 J%="+ +BM@"H\;K.LKEAR24R)R9"E (8$BL/LF MD1& =B'P)O$3T">Q(G$O([ H<@/P([ @$>!54MY,+H H0!^0,'9#,%$'D- 'X N /('=!Y!T*'(Q$3F;02D!(B(/`Y$D,"51*A!I8R!Q]PI0 M0C$C83HO,"(Q`X$D$*\I]2FB*D$I\&$\`$87H/YN$7 HT#1 (N ?D#;#(@3_ M-2$E<200(A,D,2,$-S@F%*\X\D=4*X9"VW4H(78[4.4%P"@J,'0G!" N\3NE M_2MA*1[/']\>7$\?4"`#T``0````4```!213H@`````'\W ` end ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture plegrand pontificated: > Some days ago I have posted something with 2 URL dealing with Chinese > mythology and culture but I'm wondering if someone get it... I spoke too > about the Dragon and its use in MChina. I took a quick look at the Chinese culture site, seems to be pretty good, but wouldn't have time to give a detail look for a while. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:18:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] Duchy of Ten, anyone? I am wondering if anyone out there has module DA4, the Duchy of Ten. If so, could you possibly email me and let me know if there is any significant history or information regarding the Afridhi, the history of the kingdom of Blackmoor, or the Empire of Thonia? I am currently in the process of making a large overhaul of Mystaran history (correcting oversights, filling in missing pieces, etc.) and would like to know if there is any information in DA4 that is not contained within the other 3 modules of the DA series. Your help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. :) ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:27:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, David Melik wrote: > > Lets see, the dragon part sounds good to me, and so does immortal > intervention/ancient magic, like a powerful being got mad because the dragon > was slain and did something like froze the area. Or Blackmoor could have > something to do with it. An idea: Zyxl, as it is today, was founded by refugees from MChina. (It's aboriginal inhabitants, Mystaran counterparts to the Ainu, were already there, but slowly driven towards extinction by the MChinese immigrants. I'm still thinking about whether the MAinu should just be another human culture, or perhaps representatives of a demi-human race.) This would explain why its culture is somewhat similar to MChina's despite the great distance. They were fleeing due to a civil war, or an act of great treason, or something of the like, in which they were on the side opposite ot the Emperor. Whatever it was, it was enough that the Emperor of MChina felt they deserved the ultimate punishment, so horrible that one could live a millennium without ever seeing it: the Emperor took his true dragon form, utterly immense, and set out to slay the refugees by his own hand. (Or talon, or whatever.) He chased the refugees a great distance, preventing them from stopping at any of the seemingly-habitable lands they came across on the way. But finally, one refugee, a great hero of theirs, confronted the Emperor in the waters and sky east of Skothar, near Zyxl, and in an epic battle, slew him. The refugees were jubilant, and crowned this hero their first Emperor, and he eventually ascended to the ranks of the Immortals (Dynast or Epic Hero would seem to work for him). The Immortals who watched over MChina and the MChinese Emperor were less pleased, and cursed Zyxl to eternal chill, perhaps shutting off its central volcano (MMt. Fuji?). Over time, the legend grew to the point where people now believe that the isle (isles?) of Zyxl *is* the Imperial Dragon's corpse. (All this assumes that MChina has a dragon Emperor, of course, as has been suggested elsewhere.) - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:36:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture In a message dated 96-07-28 23:11:54 EDT, darwin@magick.net (David Melik) writes: << Who and where are the Gombarians? I'm not sure if I've even heard of them... >> Gombar is one of the colonies settled by demi-ogres from Tangor (southeastern Skothar) on the Arm of the Immortals peninsula. Dragon #200 is the only source of information about them, at least until later this year when TSR releases "Arm of the Immortals" online. ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 21:38 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture Mystarans: At 02:50 AM 7/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > >Well, something like 'Jikushiru' might work - in Japanese, 'u's tend not >to get voiced as much, so it sounds like 'Jikshir', and the Japanese 'r' >is halfway between the English 'r' and 'l', so it becomes more 'Jikshil' >if you like - which is almost a Japanese pronunciation of 'Zyxl.' >Certainly not much farther off than Nippon is from Japan. >[...] I was just wondering if 'Jikushiru' acutally means anything, or if you just sort of created it out of "thin air". :-) - -=< strawberryJAMM >=--- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 21:38 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Dragons Mystarans" >4) Finally, the AD&D game does have a number of oriental dragons, whose >place in MChina we should consider: > >Chiang Lung: River Dragon, LN-LG >Li Lung: Earth Dragon, N >Lung Wang: Sea Dragon, N >Pan Lung: Coiled Dragon, CN >Shen Lung: Spirit Dragon, CN >T'ien Lung: Celestial Dragon, LN >Tun Mi Lung: Typhoon Dragon, NE >Yu Lung: Carp Dragon, N > >If any of these translations are incorrect, then TSR fouled them up -- I took >them all straight from the Monstrous Compendium/ This comment brings up a rather important question (in my mind anyway): Is the MOrient under development part of the OD&D Mystara or part of the AD&D Mystara? Personally, I think it is almost as important for us to maintain and develop OD&D as it is to maintain and develop Mystara. Just another 2 kopec's worth. - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 21:38 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Re: Oriental setting Oriental Mystaran's I've been exposed to this thread in one lump since my computer decided to take sick leave for a while and I couldn't get to my e-mail. I have to say that I'm extremely impressed! Especially with the idea of a Dragon Ruled Great Empire. I wish I knew more about Oriental Cultures -- because I'd like to jump in on this bandwagon here too. Just one more thing: At 08:57 AM 7/24/96 +0200, Pasi Anias wrote: >Central Prime, yeah! :) > > 'And my son, so as there are many planes of excistence, >and as the one we live in is the central one of them, the >plane of Prime-material, just as well is our divine and >eternal country in the exact center of the Prime plane >and so we can call it Central Prime. We are truly in the >true heart and center of the multiverse, and in the exact >point, in the exact centre of the Multiverse, Universe >and Prime is the Seat of our Emperor, the Dragon.' This is a GREAT uptake on that name. I don't know if the Chinese thought like that (Of course, we all know that Euopeans did, but that's a whole different ball game...) but I don't see why the MChinese couldn't. (just my 2 kopec's worth) - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 03:35:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, strawberryJAMM wrote: > Mystarans: > > At 02:50 AM 7/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Well, something like 'Jikushiru' might work - in Japanese, 'u's tend not > >to get voiced as much, so it sounds like 'Jikshir', and the Japanese 'r' > >is halfway between the English 'r' and 'l', so it becomes more 'Jikshil' > >if you like - which is almost a Japanese pronunciation of 'Zyxl.' > >Certainly not much farther off than Nippon is from Japan. > >[...] > > I was just wondering if 'Jikushiru' acutally means anything, or if you > just sort of created it out of "thin air". :-) Well, thin air and an ear for how Japanese gets Anglicized. :-) But I'm pretty sure I could conjure up a few back-fitting meanings for it if I hunted through my kanji dictionary. Maybe even something appropriate. I might try a bit over the next few days... - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #181 ***************************** From ???@??? Sat Aug 03 10:48:19 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA12948; Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:51:03 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA01674 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:20:03 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:20:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199608020720.CAA01674@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #182 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 68e8ddc1020c44286dce7e81ff2c197a mystara-digest Friday, 2 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 182 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Johnson Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 03:39:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Dragons On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, strawberryJAMM wrote: > Mystarans" > > > This comment brings up a rather important question (in my mind anyway): > Is the MOrient under development part of the OD&D Mystara or part of the > AD&D Mystara? Personally, I think it is almost as important for us to > maintain and develop OD&D as it is to maintain and develop Mystara. I'd vote for OD&D myself - somehow, Mystara seems to lose a bit of its unique flavor when it becomes just another AD&D world, with the same range of classes and kits as you'd find on any other AD&D world. Mystara to me has always been about taking its original flavor and running with it, no matter how odd it might have turned out. (And it has given rise to such unique things as the lycanthrope classes, the Immortals so involved with the fate of the world, the dead cultures of the Hollow World, and so on, so they must have been doing something right (or at least different, which is often similar in writing.) I, for one, have generally liked the results more than any other *D&D world. - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:34:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Duchy of Ten, anyone? At 10:18 AM 7/29/96 -0700, you wrote: >I am wondering if anyone out there has module DA4, the Duchy of Ten. If >so, could you possibly email me and let me know if there is any >significant history or information regarding the Afridhi, the history of >the kingdom of Blackmoor, or the Empire of Thonia? > >I am currently in the process of making a large overhaul of Mystaran >history (correcting oversights, filling in missing pieces, etc.) and >would like to know if there is any information in DA4 that is not >contained within the other 3 modules of the DA series. > >Your help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. :) > > I'm almost finished my elven history and migration analysis, would you like a copy when I'm done? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:34:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] Inspirational homepages > About bookkeeping, maybe is it time to make a list of all the ideas we >had. That would be better than checking all the post. As I remember there's >some central questions : > > - Where is MChina ? > - What are its neighbors ? > - What is MChina ? I have been trying to get a consensus on this for a while. Maybe we should get a list of all the proposed sites and take a vote? > Maybe it would be better to have an agreement about the organization of >our work before Joe Duncan suffocates under the great number of posts ;) I'm still ok. I've got an 850mb HD! > Would it be possible to take the presentation of a gaz and then dispatch >the work in groups. A group working on flora and fauna, another one on >religion, one on magic, one on government and so on. Of course it's >impossible to design a nation in this manner if every workgroups doesn't >exchange its works every week. > That's just an idea, any comments ? Why not have groups for each nation instead of for parts of one nation? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:34:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire ><< It should only have access to the sea on it's eastern border. That > would limit it's possible contact with Alphatia. >> >I think you are going too far in making real world analogies here. The >problem with MChina having access to a sea on its eastern border is that >the geography of Skothar is simply unsuitable for that purpose. China's >coastal regions are lowlands, while the eastern coast of Skothar is almost >completely mountainous. MChina is not China. We have to keep that in mind. Why not have a different coast? It doesn't have to be exactly like the real China. MChina should have some kind of sea access, but a limited one. >If you consider area 10 to be too big for MChina, I would recommend as an >alternative dividing the region in two. The western half would be inhabited >by >semi-nomadic Jennite tribes, while the eastern half would be MChina. This >region would be sufficiently isolated by its geography that Alphatia would >have no reason to investigate it. Furthermore, its westernmost border >would be located in an area well beyond Alphatia's reach. This is what I had in mind. Seems like a good idea to me, but we should keep the northern mountains for a sort of MTibet. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:34:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture >>Basically, one of Japan's creation myths involves a giant dragon being >>slain, and I believe its body became part of Japan. (It's been a while >>since I read the myth.) In Mystara, it would be quite possible to imagine >>a myth of an epic battle with an immense white dragon, so cold that when >>it died and fell into the ocean, it chilled the waters and lands for >>hundreds of miles around, for thousands of years, and its body was covered >>in ice and became one of the northernmost points of Zyxl. (I also recall >>the battle involving the legendary three treasures of the Emperor - the >>sword, the mirror, and the curved jewel, which could easily be real magic >>items or even artifacts in MJapan.) What do people think of this idea? >Those are excellent ideas! I think we should do something like that. The >Red Curse came to mind when I was reading that for some reason. > >Lets see, the dragon part sounds good to me, and so does immortal >intervention/ancient magic, like a powerful being got mad because the dragon >was slain and did something like froze the area. Or Blackmoor could have >something to do with it. > >Does anyone know some good books on mythology of various parts of the >Orient? I suppose I should start reading it, and maybe other people should >too... What about the immortals of MJapan sending the dragon to protect them from the Great Rain Of Fire, but having it die in the process, crashing into the ground it's last dying breath cancelling out the falling fire? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] AD&D or D&D strawberryJAMM pontificated: > > This comment brings up a rather important question (in my mind anyway): > Is the MOrient under development part of the OD&D Mystara or part of the > AD&D Mystara? Personally, I think it is almost as important for us to > maintain and develop OD&D as it is to maintain and develop Mystara. > Since alot of the people on the list plays byt AD&D rules, I felt we should probably attempt to make the setting general enough to be used in both type of games. Just my opinion, of course. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 09:18:21 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] AD&D or D&D >strawberryJAMM pontificated: >> > > This comment brings up a rather important question (in my mind anyway): >> Is the MOrient under development part of the OD&D Mystara or part of the >> AD&D Mystara? Personally, I think it is almost as important for us to > >maintain and develop OD&D as it is to maintain and develop Mystara. > > >Since alot of the people on the list plays byt AD&D rules, I felt we >should probably attempt to make the setting general enough to be >used in both type of games. Just my opinion, of course. > I agree. Unless (until) we start to make loads of new monsters and/or character classes, etc, that won't be very relevant. If/when we do, we'll have to decide which (if not both) rules to use, but for right now, just developing the concepts and deciding on locations and ideas, I don't think it will have any effect. J.Ovard jovard@polarnet.com ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 17:50:26 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Duchy of Ten, anyone? Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One writes: > > I am wondering if anyone out there has module DA4, the Duchy of Ten. If > so, could you possibly email me and let me know if there is any > significant history or information regarding the Afridhi, the history of > the kingdom of Blackmoor, or the Empire of Thonia? > > I am currently in the process of making a large overhaul of Mystaran > history (correcting oversights, filling in missing pieces, etc.) and > would like to know if there is any information in DA4 that is not > contained within the other 3 modules of the DA series. > > Your help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. :) > I've got a copy - I'll have a look at it and email you Thursday with the results. Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:37:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Skothar and the Great Empire On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Joe Duncan wrote: > >I think you are going too far in making real world analogies here. The > >problem with MChina having access to a sea on its eastern border is that > >the geography of Skothar is simply unsuitable for that purpose. China's > >coastal regions are lowlands, while the eastern coast of Skothar is almost > >completely mountainous. > > MChina is not China. We have to keep that in mind. Why not have a > different coast? It doesn't have to be exactly like the real China. MChina > should have some kind of sea access, but a limited one. Also, I would just like to point out that there is no reason that we have to be completely limited by the current maps of the region as to how we decide to structure the area's geography. By this, I mean that, while the maps of the region as currently shown should be used as guidelines, feel free to tweak them a bit if necessary to add to your realm. Ex.- the mountain range along the east coast need not be as continuous as it seems (is that the Nentsun range?). Why couldn't there be a large gap dividing the mountains where a seaport city might be located? For one thing, the Mystara designers themselves didn't seem to mind when it came to making certain geographical redesigns. Look at the Cyclopedia map for the Arm of the Immortals- no mountain range until about a third of the way up or so. Now take a look at Bruce Heard's depiction of the Arm in Dragon#200- where the Immortal's Shield mtn. range extends all the way down the arm. A bit of a change, but not terribly significant, and it suits the sort of region he was developing. As for 'real world' reasons for the discrepancies well, recall that this area is not well known or explored, and so it should come as no surprise that once MChina enters the realm of Known World politics, the area should be mapped and new information should come to light. As well, take From ???@??? Sat Aug 03 10:48:19 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA12948; Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:51:03 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA01674 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:20:03 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:20:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199608020720.CAA01674@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #182 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 68e8ddc1020c44286dce7e81ff2c197a into account the vast area depicted in the Cyclopedia map, as opposed to the 8mile/hex maps used for the Gazetteer series, and you can basically make all sorts of minor changes to the geography, if you so choose. ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 16:58:21 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] AD&D or D&D At 09:18 AM 7/30/96 PDT, J. Ovard wrote: >>strawberryJAMM pontificated: >>> >> > This comment brings up a rather important question (in my mind anyway): >>> Is the MOrient under development part of the OD&D Mystara or part of the >>> AD&D Mystara? Personally, I think it is almost as important for us to >> >maintain and develop OD&D as it is to maintain and develop Mystara. >> > >>Since alot of the people on the list plays byt AD&D rules, I felt we >>should probably attempt to make the setting general enough to be >>used in both type of games. Just my opinion, of course. >> >I agree. Unless (until) we start to make loads of new monsters >and/or character classes, etc, that won't be very relevant. >If/when we do, we'll have to decide which (if not both) rules to >use, but for right now, just developing the concepts and deciding >on locations and ideas, I don't think it will have any effect. Ditto here. I don't think the game system should make much difference. The mileu is more important here. There are differences between the systems that do _lead to_ differences in setting however, and in those cases I think we should stay close to the OD&D way because I think that contributes to the flavor of Mystara. For example, I don't think there's any need to use AD&D monsters not already in OD&D, since Mystara has enough as it is, and the color of a setting has as much to do with what you omit as with what you include. Another would be psionics. If psionics exist on Mystara, I think it should be in isolated areas and relatively rare, and unavailable as a default. I think we should develop things like MChina without reference to psionics, and allow AD&Ders who like psionics to add that on. Last example, in OD&D elves are a class unto themselves. The closest AD&D equivalent would be to say that all elves are fighter/mages. There are exceptions to that even in Mystara, but the point is that where general tendencies on Mystara have been due to OD&D rules, I think those tendencies should be maintained even in a system-ambiguous description, because that's just part of how Mystara is. My two piasters, /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: "Shane" Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:28:12 +1000 Subject: [Mystara] Was there a Poor Wizards Almanac for AC1013 ? I'm interested in knowing whether there was an Almanac or similar work for AC 1013, as I only know of the PWAs for AC 1010-1012. - -- Shane@Australia (sleepy@peg.apc.org | http://peg.apc.org/~sleepy) disclaimer - I might have no idea what I'm talking about This message sent using 100% recycled electrons - mileage varies! ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 02:16:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Was there a Poor Wizards Almanac for AC1013 ? In a message dated 96-08-01 01:45:48 EDT, sleepy@peg.apc.org (Shane) writes: << I'm interested in knowing whether there was an Almanac or similar work for AC 1013, as I only know of the PWAs for AC 1010-1012. >> It was called "Joshuan's Almanac" and it was very different in tone from the PWAs. For example, Joshuan did not believe in the existence of the Hollow World, so this book contains no information about it. He also preferred a more informal tone and so gave fewer statistics and more gossip and folk tales than the PWAs. ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Am I really back? Hi all, I'm back ... sort of. This has been one of my busiest summers in a long time. That makes it kind of tough to follow one of my favorite subjects -- Mystara. Because the list has been so busy of late, it'll take me some time to get completely caught up. In the mean time, I have a few questions -- my apologies if these have been answered recently. 1. What ever happened with Arik? Someone (OH Lund?) was putting together a "final" version for the list. If this is still in the works, I would like to get in touch with that person. I have a little bit of additional information that needs to be taken into account. 2. True Dweomers: Bob K. offered to create a few 10th level spells for Mystara's most powerful wizards. All he asked for was the names of a few mages. Was anything ever done along these lines? If not, I suggest Master Terari is a good starting candidate. 3. Thanks to all who offered WotI suggestions. The best one was "use all of the adventure ideas in the GAZ series because the world is becoming very chaotic." It was right in front of my face and I didn't even see it. Along these lines, I am interested in hearing from David Leland, aka Azure, about his modifications to the HW modules using Benekander. Is he (are you) still around now that he's graduated? 4. I'm working on a write up on the Valley of Haven. If anyone has anything to offer, please let me know. Thanks to all, Sir George Anonymous (currently .sigless) ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 19:06:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Dragons >> This comment brings up a rather important question (in my mind anyway): >> Is the MOrient under development part of the OD&D Mystara or part of the >> AD&D Mystara? Personally, I think it is almost as important for us to >> maintain and develop OD&D as it is to maintain and develop Mystara. > >I'd vote for OD&D myself - somehow, Mystara seems to lose a bit of its >unique flavor when it becomes just another AD&D world, with the same range >of classes and kits as you'd find on any other AD&D world. Mystara to me >has always been about taking its original flavor and running with it, no >matter how odd it might have turned out. (And it has given rise to such >unique things as the lycanthrope classes, the Immortals so involved with >the fate of the world, the dead cultures of the Hollow World, and so on, >so they must have been doing something right (or at least different, which >is often similar in writing.) I, for one, have generally liked the results >more than any other *D&D world. Why not make it general enough to use for either system? Or just make it so that wherever rules are given, give rules for both systems. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "The Dark Elf." Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 14:35:30 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] email game. Hello all, I'm going to be starting up an email game very shortly, and I find myself looking for character's .... well not looking to hard as I have already had people say they wanted to be in it before I started thinking how I would run it.... It will be based on D&D with a AD&D stuff mixed in (based on my currently running campaign). I will need the reply by the end of next week, the following week will be used to finalize the character, then the game will start soon after that. If you are interested give me the following details: CHaracter name: Class: Age: height: Alignment: Description: Flee factor: Personality: Other info: If you have no idea about anything here... just email me and I'll help. No RPGing essential... Knowledge of Mystara will give an advantage... hope to hear foem you soon.... ****************************************************************************** * Martin Hamilton The Dark Elf martinh@deakin.edu.au * ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Estlor Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 02:11:55 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Complete Info on Niponeria What was said before: "Niponeria is essentially a home-made country for practical use in Mystara. It fills the gap of 1)No Oriental Culture and 2)Where do the Mystics/Ninjas/Wu-Jen come from?. It's placement, after careful thought, is in the continent of Brun, west of the Midlands, but East of the Yalua river. Niponeria is a long forgotten country, due partly to the fact that they withdrew from the active portion of the Known World before Thyatis was even on the map." ========================================================================New Material ========================================================================Keep in mind Niponeria has similar outlooks as both China (during the reign of Emperors) and Japan (around the time of Shoguns). They have done precisely what China did..stagnate. The culture and country is not readily accessable. They have sealed themselves up behind their version of the Great Wall and enspelled it to ensure that they will not be disturbed. After a few generations of impenitrible walls, the local humanoids just flat out gave up on it, thinking it a bastion of the Immortals. And, perhaps, it was. In its own way, it has become a pocket of the Hollow World on the surface. The people act the same way as their ancestors did before the crowing of the first emperor. They are honor driven, and practice arts not known to other cultures. ========================================================================Rulers of Niponeria ========================================================================Niponeria is technically under the rule of an Emperor. They have always been and Empire, wether it was their own, or the people of Davinia they descended from. The current emperor has, however, been reduced to a shadow of a ruler, for Niponeria has an other leader. The wielder of power of the Country is the Shogun (much like the Master, he is known by title only). He is cruel, but not necessarily evil, for he is just maddened by power. He uses the poor farmers and laborers to supply him with riches and comfort, and he has turned the noble Samurai into an Oriental version of the Gustapo. - --------- Samurai - --------- Samurai were once noble people, but under the leadership of the Shogun, they have slowly decayed into a band of greedy mecenaries. They keep the land in order, and impose fear into the populace. - --------- Daymos - --------- What helps the Shogun to remain strong is he has replaced all the previous Daymos with people supporting himself. This has given him a system of loyal, corrupt rulers swearing fealty to him and giving him use of the land's resources and Samurai. Perhaps the best chance for a player to adventure in these lands would be to challenge the Daymo..perhaps replacing him and coming in direct conflict with a Shogun wishing to control him. - --------- The Emperor - --------- Let us not forget the Emperor. Thought historically seen as the leader, he has been battered into a scared, weak shell of his former self. He may be the ruler, but his cowardice would leave him unable to. - --------- Mystics - --------- Mystics, sometimes called fighting monks or just monks, are perhaps the greatest force of good in the country. They secretly oppose the Shogun and have been trying to forge together a strong enough army to oppose the Samurai. PCs who discover them could find their aid useful. - --------- Ninja - --------- Outlawed in Niponeria, the ninja survive through clandestine acts. Though they do not openly oppose the Shogun, they have found more and more need to play assasin against him. What is unknown to anyone is that the Shogun has his "pet" ninja clan who follow him and add to his strength. ========================================================================Honsetly, I can't claim this is all Niponeria requires...it's just something to get your juices flowing. Please, if you have found something completely wrong about my interpritation of an Oriental Country, or if you want to get something about Niponeria to me you made up, you can reach me in two ways: *E-Mail: estlor@geocities.com *Web: http://www.angelfire.com/pages1/estlor/ - ------------------------------ Estlor, Lord of the Estate of Achelos or Matrix - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #182 ***************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 4 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 183 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? Has anyone tried to revamp the list of immortals? I've been considering how to replace the NOrthern Reaches norse immortals, but I can't quite get out of the loop of Thor and Odin and them guys. Any suggestions on "what is norse-like" without resorting to weak transformations of the norse mythos? Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Dragons > > > >I'd vote for OD&D myself - somehow, Mystara seems to lose a bit of its > >unique flavor when it becomes just another AD&D world, with the same range > >of classes and kits as you'd find on any other AD&D world. Mystara to me > >has always been about taking its original flavor and running with it, no > >matter how odd it might have turned out. (And it has given rise to such > >unique things as the lycanthrope classes, the Immortals so involved with > >the fate of the world, the dead cultures of the Hollow World, and so on, > >so they must have been doing something right (or at least different, which > >is often similar in writing.) I, for one, have generally liked the results > >more than any other *D&D world. > > Why not make it general enough to use for either system? Or just > make it so that wherever rules are given, give rules for both systems. > Even though I don't like much of how AD&D turns out, I would have to vote for AD&D simply because it has more continuing support. HOWEVER, the strongest case for OD&D, IMO, is the fact that 12 Gazzeteers, the Dawn of the Empires, and 4 Creature Crucibles (etc etc) - -- that is, most of the world-specific information for Mystara -- to my knowledge is still in OD&D. Shall we re-vamp everything then? It wouldn't be that hard, really, just looking at NPCs and re-writing them. Some historical events might have to be tweaked, but those, I suspect, are few. Since TSR has dumped Mystara (last I heard), I don't think it would be a bad idea to look at the old GAZes and redo NPCs, "updating" them for AD&D, even if they are still in AC1000. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 17:53:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! At 10:09 AM 7/27/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >Mystarans, > The Savage Coast is now available for downloading from MPGN. There is >a link to it on the (still boring) Mystara Mailing List home page, at... > > http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm What's a .rtf file? How am I supposed to read the Savage Coast without all the garbled characters? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 17:51:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] AD&D or D&D >>If/when we do, we'll have to decide which (if not both) rules to >>use, but for right now, just developing the concepts and deciding >>on locations and ideas, I don't think it will have any effect. > > Ditto here. I don't think the game system should make much >difference. The mileu is more important here. There are differences >add that on. Last example, in OD&D elves are a class unto themselves. The >closest AD&D equivalent would be to say that all elves are fighter/mages. >There are exceptions to that even in Mystara, but the point is that where >general tendencies on Mystara have been due to OD&D rules, I think those >tendencies should be maintained even in a system-ambiguous description, >because that's just part of how Mystara is. I agree as well. If any elves are created the *majority* of them should be fighter/mages, simply because that's how Mystara is. Are there elves in the MOrient? How about Dwarves? Someone should create the demi-ogre race.... > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Fri, 2 Aug 96 19:16:13 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Monsters Somewhere I remember reading a list of Mystaran names for common monsters, but for the life of me a cannot find the reference anyomre. Does anyone remember where this reference is? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! Joe Duncan pontificated: > > What's a .rtf file? How am I supposed to read the Savage Coast without > all the garbled characters? > I think it is called rich text format or something like that. In anycase, I think most of the newer word processors should able to convert the file. BTW, has anyone look at them yet. Is it the same as the Red Steel and Savage Coast box sets? I haven't read the text yet, but the maps looked the same. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Fri, 02 Aug 96 19:28:19 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! Joe Duncan pontificated: > > What's a .rtf file? How am I supposed to read the Savage Coast = without > all the garbled characters? > >I think it is called rich text format or something like that. In >anycase, I think most of the newer word processors should able to >convert the file. BTW, has anyone look at them yet. Is it the >same as the Red Steel and Savage Coast box sets? I haven't read >the text yet, but the maps looked the same. > My word processor has a little trouble with it, but with a little coaxing= , I can get it to work. The file combines all the material from the original RED STEEL campaign set and the Savage Baronies supplement, along with some new material. Does anyone know where to find the files in a different format? J.Ovard jovard@polarnet.com ------------------------------ From: DragonMast@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 00:04:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! In a message dated 96-08-02 19:41:58 EDT, you write: << What's a .rtf file? How am I supposed to read the Savage Coast without all the garbled characters? >> An .rtf file is a Rich Text Format file that is used by many word processors such as Word or WordPerfect and Windows Write for that matter. It contains formatting so that it won't just look like a text file but more like it was intended to in it's original form. Hope this helps! Wayne ------------------------------ From: Derek Adam Date: Fri, 2 Aug 96 23:59 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture At 09:38 PM 7/29/96 PDT, you wrote: >Mystarans: > >At 02:50 AM 7/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >> >>Well, something like 'Jikushiru' might work - in Japanese, 'u's tend not >>to get voiced as much, so it sounds like 'Jikshir', and the Japanese 'r' >>is halfway between the English 'r' and 'l', so it becomes more 'Jikshil' >>if you like - which is almost a Japanese pronunciation of 'Zyxl.' >>Certainly not much farther off than Nippon is from Japan. >>[...] > > I was just wondering if 'Jikushiru' acutally means anything, or if you >just sort of created it out of "thin air". :-) > >-=< strawberryJAMM >=--- > Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs > jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html ><------------------------------------------------------------------> > "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous Hi all, I whipped out my Kodansha Japanese-English dictionary to see if there was such a word as Jikushiru. There isn't. However, there are the words Jiku and Shiru. Jiku as a noun means variously: A pivot, an axis, an axle, a shaft, a stem, a stalk, a scroll, or a roll. Shiru as a noun means: juice, sap, soup, or (in a metaphorical way) profit. Shiru as the infinitive form of the verb means: 1. know (as to understand an idea or a fact) 2. appreciate/understand 3. know (as to know a person) 4. recognize/know 5. think of/feel/notice 6. 7. see/experience My apologies to any Japanese speakers if these definitions are a little off (especially the verb!). Japanese can be subtle, and is very context-sensitive. I might not have gotten it exactly right, but I think it gives us a good idea of some material to work with. Here are a couple of suggestions: Jiku could be a term for the Emperor of what being called Zyxl, and that the country's borders were described as being only bounded by the knowledge, experience and awareness of the Emperor. Obviously this didn't come across in the translation. >;-) Alternatively, it could mean that their country (or the Emperor, or something) is described as the pivot (or central mechanism) for the world's profits, best interests, etc. I know that there is a person on this list who is living in Japan, and who would probably have a better interpretation. Any comments? Regards, Shadow Dragon. ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 14:22:37 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! At 21.28 02/08/96 -0400, you wrote: >Joe Duncan pontificated: >> >> What's a .rtf file? How am I supposed to read the Savage Coast without >> all the garbled characters? >> >I think it is called rich text format or something like that. In >anycase, I think most of the newer word processors should able to >convert the file. Yes, .rtf is rich text format and it is easily convertable using, for example, Word. >BTW, has anyone look at them yet. Is it the >same as the Red Steel and Savage Coast box sets? I haven't read >the text yet, but the maps looked the same. > I gave a look at it, there is something new (new PC races allowed, new combat styles..), but IMO not enough to make you print about 200 pages, especially if you have the other boxed sets. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Estlor Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 23:46:46 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Mystara and those PS and SJ locations Alright, I was intrigued by Mr. Van Camp III's posting waaaaaaay back when about Spell Jammer and Plane Scape interaction with Mystara (and I cut to the point and go only to Mystara). Here's my take, and some of his included. 1.) Mystara exists on a seperate and infinitly exspanding dimension in reality, paralell to all other dimensions. Each dimension is not unlike a sphere, radiating outward until it reaches, but does not touch, another dimension sphere. However, in Mystara's case, it has accidentally be "touched" by other spheres. With powerful magicks, sorcerers and gods can cause a temporary path to join two spheres at one or more points. This has been known to occur in two (perhaps more) seperate occasions (specifically when the De'Ambrivilles, the Klantyres, and Malachie Du Marias came from the dimension of Myths, and when the Beagle accidentally warped into Mystara's dimension). These gates, known as Dimensional Wormholes, do not remain long due to the Old Ones, who dwell in Mystara's dimension and assure its security, who close them when discovered. 2.) Mystara contains its equivalent of all the other locations (Astral, Ethereal, Prime, Elemental, Quasi/Para-Elemental, and Outer Planes), though they are not all exact replicas. Mystara's Outer Planes are not neatly organized into alignment planes. There are many outer planes, including the Old Alphatia and Vortex Planes. 3.) Mystara has no gods. Thus, they have *no* specialty priests (and I mean no. Priests of Immortals are called clerics, priests of ethos are called Philosophers). However, they have Immortals that are named the same as gods (In my campaign, this includes Thor, Odin, Demogorgon, Garal Glittergold, and Tiamat). This is explained much like Mr. Van Camp III did. Occasionally, gods saught to claim Mystara's dimension, since it is the only without gods. They sent their avatars into the dimension, however the Old Ones spotted them in time, and stripped them of their god-like abilities and memory, placing them in the appropriate cultures (Thor in the Northern Reaches), leaving them only with enough memory to have a need for Immortality and to choose their former names. In this way, Mystara grew stronger in case other gods would start a battle between the two types of beings. Note: However, I did mention Tiamat, who I use as the agent of the gods, trying to upset the balance. She slipped in unnoticed, and immediately developed an Immortal identity. Along with her come three non-native dragon types (yellow, shadow, dracolich), but that's another posting : ). 4.) There are five known dimensions that can be interacted with for creative DMs. For ease, I have given them simple names: OD&D Dimension: This is the dimension Mystara is from. It's Prime Plane mirrors the Milkey Way of Earth, with subtle differences. AD&D Dimension: This is the dimension in which the planets Krynn, Toril, Oerth, and any other AD&D setting (Birthright, Lahnkmar) are from. Spell Jammer and Plane Scape are here. Dimension of Myths: This dimension is mentioned in the Wrath of the Immortals as being like Earth of myths. It is the home of the house Slyire, Klantyre, and Malachai Du Marias. Real World: This is our dimension. If you recall, it *was* visited by Immortals in the Immortal Storm OD&D adventure module (IM1 I think???). I don't have either Plane Scape or Spell Jammer, so this is basically my guess at it. If I had to say what the layout of the dimensions are, I think this is probable: ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- | | | | | | | | Myths | OD&D | / \ ---- ---- ---- ----/ AD&D \ ---- ---- \ /| | ---- ---- \ / | | | Real | --- | World | ---- ---- ---- If you think differently, let me know. Estlor | We'll get higher and higher, e-mail :estlor@geocities.com | Straight up we'll climb. url: www.angelfire.com/pages1/estlor/ | We'll get higher and higher, | Leave it all behind. (Van Halen) ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara and those PS and SJ locations > > Real World: This is our dimension. If you recall, it *was* visited by > Immortals in the Immortal Storm OD&D adventure module (IM1 I think???). No, the world they visited was a parallel world of our own, but I don't really remember where it was suppose to be located at. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 23:57:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara and those PS and SJ locations On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > No, the world they visited was a parallel world of our own, but I > don't really remember where it was suppose to be located at. Yes, it was a parallel world, located in a distant outer plane. IIRC, the plane was a trispace, and hence magic didn't work there. A cool module, really, if only for the real world rules. Had weapon mastery rules for guns, etc. Very interesting. Didn't make guns nearly as powerful as they are made out to be in AD&D (keep rolling damage if you roll the max allowable- ie, a 4 on 1d4, keep rolling until you don't get a 4; add them all together.) ------------------------------ From: "The Dark Elf." Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 21:07:10 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] email game (second notice) Well I just noticed I had left out one MAJOR bit of information.... the campaign is starting in GLANTRI... anyone who has requested a cleric/dwarf/halfling can deside if they still want those character's which I personally have nothing against... or can submit another.. it's your choice... btw - cleric's have access to all immortal in the wrath of the immortals boxed set.... extra spells taken from dragon/AD&D to make mage/cleric a little more interesting. Glantri is a country of mage fro mages.. the above mentioned classes don't quite get treated well.... actuall one get's burnt at the stake.. the other wish they were burnt at the stake.... Year is 1000 AC about the third or fourth month... some links with Glantri City or some other part of the country helpful. (e.g. some link to theives guild, moves guild, any guild??, farmer, soldier, whatever....) Sorry to everyone for leaving that out... also XP not really used... character advancement based on use of skills... possibility of multi-class humans instead of dual-class after campaign begins... all skills and abilities chosen from background... If a reason for something is good for the campaign.... it will be left part of teh character... hope this little more info helps.. ****************************************************************************** * Martin Hamilton The Dark Elf martinh@deakin.edu.au * ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 10:54 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture >> I was just wondering if 'Jikushiru' acutally means anything, or if you >>just sort of created it out of "thin air". :-) > >[...] > >Jiku as a noun means variously: A pivot, an axis, an axle, a shaft, a stem, >a stalk, a scroll, or a roll. > >Shiru as a noun means: juice, sap, soup, or (in a metaphorical way) profit. > >Shiru as the infinitive form of the verb means: >1. know (as to understand an idea or a fact) >2. appreciate/understand >3. know (as to know a person) >4. recognize/know >5. think of/feel/notice >6. >7. see/experience > >[...] > >Here are a couple of suggestions: >Jiku could be a term for the Emperor of what being called Zyxl, and that >the country's borders were described as being only bounded by the knowledge, >experience and awareness of the Emperor. Obviously this didn't come across >in the translation. >;-) I rather like this option. A definite case of "mis-understood/translation" And, even if this error was eventually discovered, once the name "Zyxl" had become relatively common among the traders who visited there, it would be difficult to get it changed. (Think of how many people still call 'Bejing' 'Peking' instead) >Alternatively, it could mean that their country (or the Emperor, or something) >is described as the pivot (or central mechanism) for the world's profits, >best interests, etc. From this perspective, rather than "profits", wouldn't the idea of "sap" be usful, if you think of "sap" as the "life" of plants and (possibly) the planet? Then Zyxl would be the "pivot of sap" or in other words, a metaphor for the "heart of life". (The meaning of "jiku" as a "stem"/"stalk" also fits in with the term "sap"/"juice" in a similar way). This "metaphor" could also have been a "mistranslation" of what some native was trying to explain, and eventually stuck. Just some more food for thought, - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 14:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > I gave a look at it, there is something new (new PC races allowed, new > combat styles..), but IMO not enough to make you print about 200 pages, > especially if you have the other boxed sets. > All all the new stuffs in one section? If so, could you give me the page numbers so I just have to print them out instead of the whole thing? Thanks. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Mischa E Gelman Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 15:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Which areas Known World undeveloped? Well, I was just looking at the Masters book Known World Map and was wondering which of the countries and areas have been developed in various supplements and which ones have never been expounded on. So here's my list..feel free to correct me/inform me if anything has been written about these places: 1)Addakia 2)Armof Gd 3)Arypt 4)Barbarians 5)Borea 6)Brasol 7)Cestia 8)Alphatia-several modules(CM1,M1,M2) and Dawn of the Emporters 9)Empire of Dorfin IV 10)Empire of Great Khan-I guess we can assume this is Mongol-type area 11)Empire of Tangor-Homelands of Pearl Islanders,Descendants of Tanagoro 12)Thyatis-discussed in same places as Alphatia The are displayed on the map with a 12 also includes most of the independent GAZ countries 13)Coast-Hinterlands, discussed in Dawn of the Emporers 14)Hyborea 15)Isle of Dawn-Not real nation, discussed in DoE 16)Izonda 17)Jen-Described briefly in DoE, basically remnants of fallen Jennite culture 18)Lower Arypt 19)Pelatan 20)Minaea 21)Nentsun 22)Norworld-CM1,M1,M2 mostly- a littebit in DoE, but not much 23)Oceania 24-25)Sea Kingdoms 26)Serpent Peninsula-X6, mostly uninhabited wasteland 27)Southold 28)Thonia-Barren Wasteland, remnants of former Thonian Empire as described in DA1 29)Vulcania 30)Vulture Peninsula 31)Zyxl One weird thing is all the smaller islands and island chains are described in either X1 or X6 or DoE... Maybe Decepticons do bad stuff to island -Swoop Then we do more badder stuff to them -Slag ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #183 ***************************** From ???@??? Thu Aug 08 11:31:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA25142; Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:13:20 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21635 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Aug 1996 00:44:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 00:44:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199608050544.AAA21635@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #184 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 4832a7971c7e64cebf2f96b80e416095 Status: RO mystara-digest Monday, 5 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 184 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Estlor Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 15:36:11 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Immortals Okay, you've seen the long list of "Specialty Priests of" for about half of the active Immortals for Mystara...but I tend to disagree with them all. Here are my rules for "Clerics of" for the Immortals (as modified ever soooooo slightly from my net.book) - ------- Clerics, Philosophers, Druids, Crusaders, and Balancers...where do they fit? Clerics are typically stated to be the "general" preist class, but Mystara is different. Clerics can worship either Immortals or alignment-based ethos on Mystara, which brings rise to the Philosopher "class" (actually, it is more of a kit than a class). Clerics are the ones who Worship Immortals. Druids and Balancers bring a slight problem to the setting. Druids are the priests that have been nature-oriented all their career, and have followed the AD&D Druid class the whole time. Balancers are worshippers of nature Immortals that can switch over to Druid apon reaching 9th level. This means Druids can be TN, LN, or CN. Crusaders are newly presented in Spells & Magic, and haven't really been fit into the setting. I have decided they are ideal oriented...namely the ideal of war, justice, and defense, and therefore do not worship Immortals directly. Afterthought: Shamans, Paladins, and Avengers Shaman characters are "spirit-priests" and still do worship Immortals (notably those the humanoids worship). Shadow Elf shamans are considered Clerics, however. Paladins and Avengers are the warrior clerics, being one for good and the other for evil. They worship specific Immortals, but they do not gain special abilities beyond their classes. - --------- Immortals: How are they used? Immortal introduction is quite simple. First, all Clerics have access to basic cleric spheres (as said in Spells & Magic). However, their specific worship of an Immortal, unlike the Philosopher's ethos, grants them one or two powers, and perhaps a penalty. Dig out the Wrath of the Immortals book and use the power listed there, or modify and select one or two from the specialty priest listing. However, there needs to be one change. Clerics that gain new weapons from worship need to have a separate power picked for them, since the "Weapons Allowed" is a seperate entry. And for penalties...most common is lower Turn/Command abilities or none at all. I think that about covers it. If you want a listing of some of the Immortals, check my net.book (at MPGN), or if you want some for minor Immortals (that have just a description), I might be able to be convinced to think them up. Let me know what you think of these rules. Estlor. estlor@geocities.com - ----------------------------------------- But thou shalt flourish in immortal youth, Unhurt amidst the wars of elements, the wrecks of matter, and the crash of worlds." - -Joseph Addison ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 15:00:51 PDT Subject: [Mystara] HW module mods due to WotI (was Am I really back?) Welcome back, Sir George At 06:01 PM 8/1/96 -0400, you wrote: >3. Thanks to all who offered WotI suggestions. The best >one was "use all of the adventure ideas in the GAZ series >because the world is becoming very chaotic." It was right >in front of my face and I didn't even see it. Along these >lines, I am interested in hearing from David Leland, aka >Azure, about his modifications to the HW modules using >Benekander. Is he (are you) still around now that he's >graduated? I'm still on the list, although my physical location and email address have changed (see sig.). I'd be happy to repeat what I said a few months back about the HW trilogy modifications, or to be more explicit. You may have seen my recent post on the Order of the Owl, which is tied into these modifications I made in that campaign. Let me know if you got that from the list or need a copy of that sent to your email address directly. In either case, taking a look at that might answer a question or two, or create more of them. Incidentally, I haven't received any response to the Order of the Owl post. I don't feel slighted or anything :), but I had originally received a decent number of requests for more info. I wonder whether those people are away from the list for the summer? /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 15:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Monsters On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Dave Brohman wrote: > Somewhere I remember reading a list of Mystaran names for common monsters, > but for the life of me a cannot find the reference anyomre. > > Does anyone remember where this reference is? I don't know if anyone already answered this or not... This sounds like the AD&D Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix. Its intro chapter has the commonly used names for certain monsters that are found on the Known World. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Cthulhu, eh? I'll try and backstab him" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 19:09:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] AD&D or D&D In a message dated 96-08-02 19:40:01 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << Someone should create the demi-ogre race.... >> And one note for whoever does so -- they are considerably brighter and more sociable than the "Half-Ogres" already described for AD&D. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 19:06:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Monsters In a message dated 96-08-02 20:33:12 EDT, dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) writes: << Somewhere I remember reading a list of Mystaran names for common monsters, but for the life of me a cannot find the reference anyomre. Does anyone remember where this reference is? >> The Monstrous Compendium for Mystara, I think. It is the AD&D equivalent of the D&D "Creature Catalogs". ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 19:09:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! In a message dated 96-08-02 19:41:58 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Joe Duncan) writes: << What's a .rtf file? How am I supposed to read the Savage Coast without all the garbled characters? >> I had the same problem. There are two solutions that I am aware of: (1) Open the files by use of a Microsoft word processor (any recent one should do the trick). (2) Wait for the straight ASCII text versions of the files to be uploaded. They are coming soon on AOL, and thus should be available on MPGN a short time later. ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 19:09:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! In a message dated 96-08-02 22:44:55 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << BTW, has anyone look at them yet. Is it the same as the Red Steel and Savage Coast box sets? I haven't read the text yet, but the maps looked the same. >> A lot of material is the same, but there are a few new goodies. For example, it describes the lizard-kin (cay-men, shazaks, and gator men) as player character races. ------------------------------ From: "Gregory A. Swarthout" Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 18:17:21 -0600 Subject: [Mystara] SF Books A great way to pick up high-quality, hardcover science fiction books is through The Science Fiction Book Club. Their membership offer is 6 books for $1 and they have plenty of new and classic science fiction book to choose from. You can sign up online at the following web site: http://www.xmission.com/~gregorys/sfbc.htm ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 18:17:31 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] SF Books At 06:17 PM 8/4/96 -0600, you wrote: >A great way to pick up high-quality, hardcover science fiction >books is through The Science Fiction Book Club. Their membership >offer is 6 books for $1 and they have plenty of new and classic >science fiction book to choose from. You can sign up online at the >following web site: > >http://www.xmission.com/~gregorys/sfbc.htm > > Please do not send advertisements to the Mystara mailing list (nor to me as an individual, thank you). This is NOT a venue for advertisement of any kind. Perhaps someone could get away with advertising a product if it were tied to the subject of the list, and if permission were obtained from the listowner ahead of time. Your advertisement has nothing to do with this list. It is a list for the fans of the Mystara game setting for D&D. It is NOT science fiction, but fantasy. I'm sure the SFBC sells fantasy books, but I doubt any of them are set in Mystara. Again, please refrain from such posts to this list. I suggest you look at the appropriate business and marketplace newsgroups on usenet, since they are developed explicity for the purpose you have. Your advertising here is seen as an intrusion and an attempt to get not even merely free exposure, but exposure at OUR expense. Your advertisement costs us financially, because each of us is paying for our internet access in one way or another, for download time in some cases, for data storage space in all cases, and io.com (the server hosting our mailing list) is paying for the posts to our list with its hard drive space. You are essentially trying to make money by spending ours and another business', rather than spending your own, which is the normal and fair way to do advertising. If I see another advertisement from you or your organization posted to this list, or to me as an individual, I will contact your service provider and complain that you are abusing your internet priveleges, and ask that your account be terminated. Regards, David Leland. ------------------------------ From: remoore@nando.net Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 21:22:11 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] [O] AD&D or D&D If the D&D elf category presents a problem, why not try this: All elves have the ability to use magic, but some of them choose not to, due to lack of interest or lesser ability than their peers (low Int or Wis). These elves either use no magic, or use weak, non-combat magic, like Read Magic, Detect Magic, Analyze, etc., etc. Yurz Trooly, RM ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 22:05:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] AD&D or D&D In a message dated 96-08-04 21:58:26 EDT, remoore@nando.net writes: << If the D&D elf category presents a problem, why not try this: All elves have the ability to use magic, but some of them choose not to, due to lack of interest or lesser ability than their peers (low Int or Wis). These elves either use no magic, or use weak, non-combat magic, like Read Magic, Detect Magic, Analyze, etc., etc. >> There is also the "Warrior-Elf" option introduced in the Hollow World boxed set. A good way to treat an outer world Elf with no interest in magic might be to allow him to advance as a Fighter but limit his Mage ability to level 1. ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 18:47:40 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] SF Books At 06:17 PM 8/4/96 PDT, you wrote: > Please do not send advertisements to the Mystara mailing list (nor >to me as an individual, thank you). This is NOT a venue for advertisement Damn! Sorry folks. I forgot to change the reply address *sigh* /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 22:41:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? At 10:54 AM 8/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >Has anyone tried to revamp the list of immortals? > >I've been considering how to replace the NOrthern Reaches norse >immortals, but I can't quite get out of the loop of Thor and Odin and >them guys. > >Any suggestions on "what is norse-like" without resorting to weak >transformations of the norse mythos? What exactly do you mean? I've done a lot of research into Norse Mythology and religion, as well as the Runes. What did you have in mind? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 22:41:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! At 09:28 PM 8/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >Joe Duncan pontificated: >> >> What's a .rtf file? How am I supposed to read the Savage Coast without >> all the garbled characters? >> >I think it is called rich text format or something like that. In >anycase, I think most of the newer word processors should able to >convert the file. BTW, has anyone look at them yet. Is it the >same as the Red Steel and Savage Coast box sets? I haven't read >the text yet, but the maps looked the same. Where could I get something to read these files? How about print them? > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 22:41:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Dragons >> >so they must have been doing something right (or at least different, which >> >is often similar in writing.) I, for one, have generally liked the results >> >more than any other *D&D world. >> >> Why not make it general enough to use for either system? Or just >> make it so that wherever rules are given, give rules for both systems. >> >Even though I don't like much of how AD&D turns out, I would have to vote >for AD&D simply because it has more continuing support. > >HOWEVER, the strongest case for OD&D, IMO, is the fact that 12 >Gazzeteers, the Dawn of the Empires, and 4 Creature Crucibles (etc etc) >-- that is, most of the world-specific information for Mystara -- to my >knowledge is still in OD&D. > >Shall we re-vamp everything then? It wouldn't be that hard, really, just Those who want to can do that for their own campaigns, but we should keep the MOrient useable by people playing in both systems. It's not too hard to do it's just the method we have to decide on. Provide rules for both? Or make it general enough for both to use? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 20:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] .RTF If I remember correctly, RTF is for Adobe Acrobat. A free reader (>1 meg) can be downloaded from the adobe web site; I believe it's adobe.com I read the Savage Coast files with my archaic Word for Windows 1.0. Something goofed in the translations, but it wasn't anything a font change couldn't fix (for some reason, it wanted to read in everything as Greek Symbols). I reformatted the files for personal use. I guess it's not legal for distribution now, but in case it is, I could send it out if people are really having problems. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Dave Brohman Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 0:15:14 EDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Monsters Leroy Van Camp III writes: > > > Somewhere I remember reading a list of Mystaran names for common monsters, > > but for the life of me a cannot find the reference anyomre. > > > > Does anyone remember where this reference is? > > I don't know if anyone already answered this or not... > This sounds like the AD&D Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix. Its > intro chapter has the commonly used names for certain monsters that are > found on the Known World. Yeah, it hit me shortly after posting the question. I think this proves that, without a doubt, I am the dumbest person alive :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 21:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? > > > >I've been considering how to replace the NOrthern Reaches norse > >immortals, but I can't quite get out of the loop of Thor and Odin and > >them guys. > > > >Any suggestions on "what is norse-like" without resorting to weak > >transformations of the norse mythos? > > What exactly do you mean? I've done a lot of research into Norse > Mythology and religion, as well as the Runes. What did you have in mind? What I guess I was trying to say is, what are the elements of, say, Thor, which are important in Norse society as pictured in Mystara? As I understand it, Thor was a giant-slayer of sorts in the real Norse mythology. I was quite surprised that the writers didn't seem to pull that in, and instead made him a mage-slayer, as is indicated in his bio in the Hollow World boxed set. So, I guess I'll start there, and make Thor a legendary giant-slayer figure (all the more impressive in the new AD&D write-ups on giants), perhaps worshipped by other gung-ho berserking giant-slayer/monster-vanquishing/ale-guzzling scruffy guys who are 7'2" and use battleaxes in one hand (or something like that...). But I can't quite break out of the need to get him a big hammer, a cool gauntlet, and a nifty girdle. The goats I can dump, no sweat. What I need is some kind of ... "signature" for him, which doesn't make him seem un-Norse (that is, "just like another fighter"). I thought of axes, but funny that no Norse god I can think of off-hand uses axes... Besides, axes are appropriated by Dwarves already (though that would make this Thor-substitute popular with those stunty fellows who also have giant troubles in the Altan Tepes.) Am I making any sense? After the Norse, I'll work on Blackmoor. Can't stand the fact that Rafiel has glasses... :) Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Estlor Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 01:02:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > [Image] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 96-08-02 22:44:55 EDT, scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu > (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: > > << BTW, has anyone look at them yet. Is it the > same as the Red Steel and Savage Coast box sets? I haven't read > the text yet, but the maps looked the same. >> > Yes and no. It takes all the material from those boxes and combines it into one, throwing in some new races (Gurrash, Caymen) and spells. What's neat is if you have the Red Steel box, you can break out the CD and use track 4 with the adventure!! Estlor ------------------------------ From: Estlor Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 01:00:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >=20 > [Image] >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > In a message dated 96-08-02 19:41:58 EDT, jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca (Jo= e > Duncan) writes: >=20 > << What's a .rtf file? How am I supposed to read the Savage Coas= t > without > all the garbled characters? >> >=20 Here's what I did: Open the file with Word Pad (Or MS Word 6) and save it in that=20 format. Then open it with the normal processor. I've given a list of=20 what your characters that are grabled from that should be: The "D" with a minus through it: a minus "-" The "N" with the "~" on it: a dash "-" The long dash: Either a =F1 or a =F5, based on the rest of the word. I hope this helps. Estlor. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #184 ***************************** From ???@??? Thu Aug 08 11:31:58 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10092; Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:18:57 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA27738 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:45:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:45:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199608060045.TAA27738@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #185 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: c8dc711a0c1426fa8ed665abaccdf76d Status: RO mystara-digest Monday, 5 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 185 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 22:24 PDT Subject: [Mystara][O] MOrient Monsers and Dragons Mystarans: I'm was thinking of looking into Oriental Mythology and Folk Lore for the purpose of developing some MOrient Specific Monsters. The Orient is full of interesting and unusual creatures that we could really make use of. There are probably some which will actually be modified varients on existing standard monsters too. And, we definitly need to develop an MOrient "Dragon". I would suspect that standard "Dragons" could also live near the MOrient, but they would be much rarer than the "Emperor Dragons", and would not be accorded the same level of respect that the "Emperor Dragons" were given, since they are not really of the same ilk. Actually, I just remembered, I have a book a borrowed from my Mother called "Dragons, A Natural History" that includes some information on Oriental Dragons (Both the Chinese and Japanese types). It might be of some interest to share some of the information from it with the list for further perusal. I'll try to post it in the next couple of days (after I manage to find the book...) That's all! - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 01:33:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? In a message dated 96-08-05 00:53:23 EDT, seah@sfu.ca (Simon Seah) writes: << What I need is some kind of ... "signature" for him, which doesn't make him seem un-Norse (that is, "just like another fighter"). I thought of axes, but funny that no Norse god I can think of off-hand uses axes... Besides, axes are appropriated by Dwarves already (though that would make this Thor-substitute popular with those stunty fellows who also have giant troubles in the Altan Tepes.) Am I making any sense? >> Thor's weapon is a throwable hammer -- does that help you any? ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 22:24 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] AD&D or OD&D (was Re: Dragons) Mystaran's: At 10:41 PM 8/4/96 -0400, you wrote: > > Those who want to can do that for their own campaigns, but we should >keep the MOrient useable by people playing in both systems. It's not too >hard to do it's just the method we have to decide on. Provide rules for both? >Or make it general enough for both to use? I think I would tend to lean towards trying to keep our "Net.GAZ" in the making as typically "Mystaran" as possible. What I mean by that is that we shouldn't make any of the general background and other information specific to either OD&D or AD&D but it *should* be specific to the overall concept of "Mystara". So, when it comes to things like Elves, Dwarves, etc, if we want them to be "different" from the "standard Mystaran" versions (which do just happen to be the OD&D type because that's what Mystara was first developed for) then we should be sure to present a reasonably good reason for their differences -- just like the existing GAZ's do when they present new class types (i.e., the Elven Treekeepers, which are Clerics of a sort, or the Seers of Yav, which can be considered very distant "Half Elves" and have special abilities because of this "unusual" geneology). By doing this, people who prefer OD&D Mystara are given good explanations for the differences found in this new country, and people who prefer AD&D Mystara can just take it as it is and go with it. I also think that providing stats for any important NPC's and new MOrient Monsters for both D&D and AD&D is a reasonable suggestion. There are standard conversion rules in the back of the Cyclopedia, so it shouldn't be *too* difficult for each of us to develop the other set from whatever format we originally design the NPC or Monster in. This will save some time for anyone who eventually uses the "Net.GAZ" we create, regardless of which rule set they are using. - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard Date: Sun, 04 Aug 96 22:02:53 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] AD&D or D&D In a message dated 96-08-04 21:58:26 EDT, remoore@nando.net writes: << If the D&D elf category presents a problem, why not try this: All elves have the ability to use magic, but some of them choose not to, due to lack of interest or lesser ability than their peers (low Int or Wis). These elves either use no magic, or use weak, non-combat magic, like Read Magic, Detect Magic, Analyze, etc., etc. >> There is also the "Warrior-Elf" option introduced in the Hollow World boxed set. A good way to treat an outer world Elf with no interest in magic might be to allow him to advance as a Fighter but limit his Mage ability to level 1. I find it hard to believe that the entire Elf race meets the Intelligence requirements that are placed on the race in OD&D, so it only makes sense to use the "Warrior-Elf" option. At least to some extent. J.Ovard jovard@polarnet.com ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:32:28 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara and those PS and SJ locations a few corrections; > 2.) Mystara contains its equivalent of all the other locations (Astral, > Ethereal, Prime, Elemental, Quasi/Para-Elemental, and Outer Planes), > though they are not all exact replicas. Mystara's Outer Planes are not > neatly organized into alignment planes. There are many outer planes, > including the Old Alphatia and Vortex Planes. actually Vortex is a dimension, and not a nice one... > Real World: This is our dimension. If you recall, it *was* visited by > Immortals in the Immortal Storm OD&D adventure module (IM1 I think???). It is pointed out that the dimension the immortals wisited is not our, but one wery similar to our, with some differences anyway. So there is actually two dimensions; our and the one in IM1. And you forgot the dimension of nightmares, a wery interesting one :) Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Fraser MacKenzie Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 09:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] .RTF OK all.....enough speculation..... RTF stands for Rich Text Format. It is a format that Microsoft word can save as. If you do an Open file and then change the format type from Microsoft word to Rich Text Format (RTF) it should be able to open the file. IF you cannot open the file, tell me where I can get it, I will convert it into text, and then I will send it to you. Fraser (fraserm@achilles.net) On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Simon Seah wrote: > If I remember correctly, RTF is for Adobe Acrobat. A free reader (>1 > meg) can be downloaded from the adobe web site; I believe it's adobe.com > > I read the Savage Coast files with my archaic Word for Windows 1.0. > Something goofed in the translations, but it wasn't anything a font > change couldn't fix (for some reason, it wanted to read in everything as > Greek Symbols). > > I reformatted the files for personal use. I guess it's not legal for > distribution now, but in case it is, I could send it out if people are > really having problems. > > Simon > :) > > Fraser MacKenzie GOSENSGO GOSENSGO GOSENSGO http://www.achilles.net/~fraserm GOSENSGO GOSENSGO GOSENSGO \|/ _____________________________ (o o) __________________| Fraser MacKenzie |_____oo0_(_)_0oo____ \ Optimization | fraserm@senators.com |If only I could be / \ hinders | Voice: 613-830-5581 |respected without / | evolution. | Fax : 613-830-5807 |being respectable.| / |_____________________________| \ /___________________) (______________________\ ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 21:09:14 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Which areas Known World undeveloped? At 15.32 04/08/96 -0400, you wrote: >Well, I was just looking at the Masters book Known World Map and was >wondering which of the countries and areas have been developed in various >supplements and which ones have never been expounded on. So here's my >list..feel free to correct me/inform me if anything has been written >about these places: > >1)Addakia >2)Armof Gd >3)Arypt >4)Barbarians >5)Borea >6)Brasol >7)Cestia >8)Alphatia-several modules(CM1,M1,M2) and Dawn of the Emporters >9)Empire of Dorfin IV >10)Empire of Great Khan-I guess we can assume this is Mongol-type area >11)Empire of Tangor-Homelands of Pearl Islanders,Descendants of Tanagoro >12)Thyatis-discussed in same places as Alphatia The are displayed on >the map with a 12 also includes most of the independent >GAZ countries >13)Coast-Hinterlands, discussed in Dawn of the Emporers >14)Hyborea >15)Isle of Dawn-Not real nation, discussed in DoE >16)Izonda >17)Jen-Described briefly in DoE, basically remnants of fallen Jennite culture >18)Lower Arypt >19)Pelatan >20)Minaea >21)Nentsun >22)Norworld-CM1,M1,M2 mostly- a littebit in DoE, but not much >23)Oceania >24-25)Sea Kingdoms >26)Serpent Peninsula-X6, mostly uninhabited wasteland >27)Southold >28)Thonia-Barren Wasteland, remnants of former Thonian Empire as >described in DA1 >29)Vulcania >30)Vulture Peninsula >31)Zyxl > I think, but I'm not sure, that something about Cestia, Oceania and the Vulture Peninsula was in the Voyage of the Princess Ark series. At least I remember reading about a monster called "Cestian Gobbler". Something about Minaea is in PWA3. Hope this helps. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 21:06:03 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! At 14.35 04/08/96 -0400, you wrote: >All all the new stuffs in one section? If so, could you give me >the page numbers so I just have to print them out instead of >the whole thing? Thanks. > Actually I gave it only a quick look, but I think that unfortunately not all the new stuff is in one section. The new stuff should be: * new playable races (Cayman, Lizardman....) * new combat styles * maybe more details on the western Savage Coast * stuff that was published in the Savage Baronies boxed set, now included here If someone can add to this list, please do. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 12:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? > > In a message dated 96-08-05 00:53:23 EDT, seah@sfu.ca (Simon Seah) writes: > > << What I need is some kind of ... "signature" for him, which doesn't make > him seem un-Norse (that is, "just like another fighter"). I thought of > axes, but funny that no Norse god I can think of off-hand uses axes... > Besides, axes are appropriated by Dwarves already (though that would make > this Thor-substitute popular with those stunty fellows who also have > giant troubles in the Altan Tepes.) > > Am I making any sense? >> > > Thor's weapon is a throwable hammer -- does that help you any? > Er... No. I wanted something else, to get out of the Thor/Odin stereotype, and yet still preserve the Norse flavor. In other words, what is the "norse flavor?" Simon :) ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:02:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Which areas Known World undeveloped? On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > 2)Armof Gd Now called the Arm of the Immortals. There is an article on it (at least part of it) by Bruce Heard in Dragon #200. Within are presented the Ee'ar (a winged elven race) and a race of winged minotaurs (can't think of the name offhand- briefly referred to in one of the previous Princess Ark articles). Also mentioned are the demi-ogre nations (Gombar and ?- having memory lapses today...) though not much detail is given on them. > 3)Arypt Not much ever mentioned, except that this area is a vast desert (the Aryptian basin) south of the former Minaen colonies on Davania. Me, I put the Sis'thik (from the Creature Catalog) down there, as nomads. But YMMV. > 4)Barbarians Not sure which area of the Master's map this refers to. Will have to check. > 7)Cestia Inhabited by Cestian Gobblers. This area is basically a wasteland dominated by the aforementioned plants. No sentient life here. > 9)Empire of Dorfin IV Haldemar points out in the very first Princess Ark article that there is no such place. King Dorfin was a gnomish king in Karameikos ( see also AC11-Wondrous Inventions) who used to play a joke on the Karameikan barons by sending messengers out past the Sind desert and passing messages along back to Karameikos bringing "News from his Imperial cousin to the West." > 13)Coast-Hinterlands, discussed in Dawn of the Emporers Also given mention in PWA's 1011-1012. > 14)Hyborea There is mention that this is where the Beastmen first originated, and apparently still live in great numbers (in their relatively stable humanoid forms). Also, there is mention in the DA series of modules about this area, but I don't recall what it said offhand. Will check. > 17)Jen-Described briefly in DoE, basically remnants of fallen Jennite culture Also discussed at length in PWA 1012. > 18)Lower Arypt Hmm. Maybe lower Arypt is the part that is now referred to as the Aryptian basin... At any rate, Davania is given a quick overview in PWA 1011-1012. > 20)Minaea PWA 1012 goes into detail here. Basically a bunch o' rotten pirates. > 23)Oceania An island nation that seemingly once held a great culture, but was destroyed by Night Dragons (presumably led by our old friend Synn). Their descendants now live on the island of Cestia. > 26)Serpent Peninsula-X6, mostly uninhabited wasteland This area now is home to the Yavdlom divinarchy and the (isolated) Ulimwengu peoples. See Champions of Mystara boxed set, or the PWA's. > 28)Thonia-Barren Wasteland, remnants of former Thonian Empire as > described in DA1 Actually, this Thonia is not the original Thonia. It is (according to the DA series, as well as certain other info- i.e., that previous to Aaron Allston's info given post- Hollow world boxed set), in fact, a poor memory of the former Thonian empire, where the remnants of that civilization retreated to when Blackmoor blew up. I mentioned before that I am doing major research on this particular era of Mystaran history, and included in this is a refiguring of where Blackmoor should truly be located. According to everything I've found (again, pre Hollow World boxed set) Blackmoor was actually located north of the Black Mountains, just south of Hyborea. Which puts the former Thonian Empire covering the regions now referred to as the Known World. As for this region on the Master's map, yes, this is where the beaten, shattered remnants of the Thonian empire fled, and there is little more here than frozen tundra. > 29)Vulcania Let's see, Ice Elves down south, remnants of the former civilization here, but far more barbaric, as they live within the Anti-Magic zone of the hollow world opening. Also giant Sloths... The N'Djatwa (elf-ogres) live just north of Vulcania, in the mountains west of the Vulture peninsula. Also, the land of the Earthshakers (CM4, I think?) where the ice gnomes live in their huge machines and pummel the heck out of each other on a daily basis, is far to the east. > 30)Vulture Peninsula This is the original home of the Nagpa (vulture men) before they were cursed to be the creatures they are now. Nothing here other than barren lands and a heck of a lot of vultures. ------------------------------ From: LEGRAND Pascal Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 21:22:41 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] [O] Which rules ? Hello Mystarans, About the rules system use to design the MChina and other countries I would have prefered to use as less as possible refernces to the system to keep our work widely usable by any who play in a Mystara setting with different rules such as GURP, Rolemaster or Runequest (this is my case). If we don't put too many references to rules (except for spells and monsters maybe) many could adapt it to their campaign without problems. But if you find it easier to design it with rules so do it because ODD or ADD are known enpough to be adapted to many other games. I hope you won't flame me because I don't play with ODD or ADD rules. As a last comment I would be pleased to heard words from other people using different rules. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Mystara With Different Game Systems... On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, LEGRAND Pascal wrote: > I hope you won't flame me because I don't play with ODD or ADD rules. As a > last comment I would be pleased to heard words from other people using > different rules. Well, I certainly won't flame you. I think people should play with the system they know and love the most. Personally, I am not particularly fond of xD&D; for me, there is a lot not to like. I still play it due to convenience. I know the rules well, and it saves me from converting it to another system. I like many of the xD&D settings, so there is a lot to convert. I am slowly but surely converting a bunch of my AD&D stuff, starting with the Planescape setting, to the GURPS system, my all-time favorite. Some of it is easy, like race conversions, while others are tough, like clerical magic. Sooner or later I will get around to converting Mystara stuff. Mystara will actually be fairly easy, since there are no specialty priests to exactly duplicate. Magic is fairly standard, and the races are a snap. Certain details will be a problem, if I ever bother with them (such as the Secret Crafts of Glantri). Of course, like many GURPS fans, I tend to try to convert most games or settings to it at one time or another. Now that I have Wraith 2nd Edition, I can start on that, too. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Wither the Old Ones? Hi all, On Sunday, July 28, Leblanc queried: >the great ones >are kind of immortals to the immortrals, would anybody have more >info on >them or know where I can get info I assume you mean the Old Ones. Try the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set (known around here as WotI). Also, IIRC (if I remember correctly), the old gold boxed Immortals set has some sketchy information. There is very little concrete material about them that is canonical. It seems like we had a discussion about the Old Ones last January. Hmmm, maybe that was in March.... Good Luck, Sir George Anonymous (*sigh* still no .sig in sight) ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Elven History and Migration Hi all, On Tuesday, July 30, Joe Duncan mentioned: >I'm almost finished my elven history and migration analysis, >would >you like a copy when I'm done? By all means, post it to the list. I would love to see it. Thanks, Sir George Anonymous (to .sig or not to .sig, that is the question) ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Format for MOrient Hi all, Let's try to make the new MOrient stuff as generic (system wise) as possible, that way we can all use it. It's not too difficult to convert from AD&D to OD&D and vice versa, but what if someone prefers to use something else (e.g. GURPS) with Mystara? When it comes to detailing new classes, spells, races, etc. why not put out both versions? That way it can be used by (I would guess) 95% of the people around here. Surely there are both AD&D and OD&D people on the MOrient creation team so that most people could be accomodated. If anyone needs a conversion to some other system, they can do the work and post it for the rest of us. Sorry, just the ramblings of a mad man. Later, Sir George Anonymous (Has anyone seen my .sig lying around?) ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Mailing List FAQ Hi all, Not too long ago, Leroy was asking for some suggestions for changes to the mailing list FAQ. Here are two more that I came up with. 1. We need to change the section on fluff now that it has been "legalized." 2. We should mention a few topics that are considered controversial. I don't care to *ban* these topics from the list, merely to warn new subscribers that certain subjects might be a little touchy. For example, I'm really tired of reading "OD&D is truer to the spirit of Mystara" and "AD&D allows for greater roleplaying potential." This list is about Mystara, not the advocacy of a particular system. The first is an absolute necessity. The second is merely my opinion, and is open to debate. (However, if a vote is held, please try to remember the time lag for those of us receiving the list in digest mode. :)) Later, Sir George Anonymous (still .sigless) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #185 ***************************** From ???@??? Thu Aug 08 11:32:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA27921; Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:38:03 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA29665 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:19:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:19:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199608060519.AAA29665@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #186 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5386919210d5177430e1078c37d42c97 mystara-digest Tuesday, 6 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 186 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Order of the Owl Hi all, Whew! I've ingested more Mystara in the last week than any human being should be allowed to (almost 100 back issues of the digest). 8> Don't worry, I won't be putting together one of my infamous "mass replies." I do, however, have a few comments to make so be prepared for a quick flurry of messages. >From: "David 'Azure' Leland" >Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 15:00:51 PDT > >Welcome back, Sir George Thank you. I've missed everyone terribly. I'm glad to see lots of new faces (names?) on the list. >At 06:01 PM 8/1/96 -0400, you wrote: > >>Along these >>lines, I am interested in hearing from David Leland, aka >>Azure, about his modifications to the HW modules using >>Benekander. > >I'd be happy to repeat what I said a few >months back about the HW trilogy modifications, or to be more >explicit. Thank's, but I found your post in digest #88. I just hadn't gotten to it yet. It definitely gave me some good ideas. >You >may have seen my recent post on the Order of the Owl, which is >tied into >these modifications I made in that campaign. Yep, I saw it. Great job!! This one will probably see the light of day in my campaign. I especially liked your description of the Order's symbol, and the "members'" devotion to *the Order* rather its immortal patron. The logistics of working a priest of Benekander into an on-going campaign have always bothered me, but you handled it smoothly. The only problem I have with the Order is the animation of Lightning Zombies. Wouldn't Moridae/Okuwa have a problem with animating the dead? Also, I don't think Benekander has enough control over the energy of the mirror shield for this (assuming, as in Phase I, this the cause). I would love to see your list of spells, as well as a brief write-up of Okuwa. Keep up the good work. >I wonder whether those >people are away from the list for the summer? Or just extremely busy. :( Later, Sir George Anonymous (where did I put that .sig file?) ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [none] Hi all, Here is something I dug up from the archives concerning the prophecies in JA. I *knew* I remembered having this discussion on the list once before. It looks like we are thinking along the same lines as the last time. If anyone is interested, the posts below come from digest numbers 71 and 72. I have one additional suggestion to offer. Could the thing rising from deep below be the grip of the Alphatian Empire? Just a thought. The other predictions seem to be right on target. Later, Sir George Anonymous (questing for my .sig) - ----------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 18:39:42 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] Prophecies I was just looking over Joshuan's Almanac again the other night. Rereading the prophecies mentioned in the back, I got to thinking about what they could be foretelling (too bad we'll never know for sure- since this is the last almanac. :( ) I thought this might be a good topic to discuss on the list- what do you think they might be foretelling for events taking place in 1014? My thoughts- #1) Obviously a reference to the shadowelves. Something about 'the blighted oaks'? I think it refers to the possible civil war that is predicted numerous times throughout the book. #2) I think this refers to the final defeat of Thar and Psa'gh in the Soderfjord Jarldoms. It mentions 'a meeting of two fearsome hordes' or something, that will be defeated 'much to the relief of Northern lords.' #3) The return of the Karameikan expedition to the Hollow World is my guess on this one. "They return from the north" or something like that (as you can see, I'm reciting from memory, so these quotes are hardly accurate). I'm thinking that in 1014 this expedition finally returns, with news confirming Claransa's book on the Hollow World. Doubtless a new scramble for exploiting the Hollow World begins- not to mention that those join Thyatian/Minrothad troops are likely going to be busy defending Aegos. #4) This is the one that was the most difficult to figure out- "from the depths it rises"- could refer to a lot of things. My initial thought was maybe the devilfish from Undersea, rising up against that kingdom, but this didn't seem terribly likely. Or the Behemoth- though that was supposedly destroyed. My latest thought is this- Oenkmar will, with the help of Shadowelf magic, rise again from the depths of the Broken Lands, and become the capitol of a new Shadowelf kingdom. What repercussions this will have on Aengmor, and the surrounding lands is anyone's guess... #5) Apparently a reference to the Heldannic Knights. My guess is that after their inquisition, they've peeved Vanya off, and something big is going to happen. A civil war, maybe? From: Wildmule@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:22:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Prophecies jsmill@imap1.asu.edu (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) wrote: >>I was just looking over Joshuan's Almanac again the other night. Rereading the prophecies mentioned in the back, I got to thinking about what they could be foretelling (too bad we'll never know for sure- since this is the last almanac. :( )<< Well, you certainly got close to what I was envisioning when I wrote them! Best regards, Ann Dupuis wildmule@aol.com - ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:42:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara and those PS and SJ locations On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > > > > Real World: This is our dimension. If you recall, it *was* visited by > > Immortals in the Immortal Storm OD&D adventure module (IM1 I think???). > > No, the world they visited was a parallel world of our own, but I > don't really remember where it was suppose to be located at. (whipping off his Cloak of Lurking and attacking with his Library +2 versus Trivial knowledge...) IM1, The Immortal Storm, has the PC Immortals visiting an Outer Plane that is a trispace, and therefore has no magic. The world has developed a culture parallel to our own (including New York and Skokie, Illinois), but there is NO fantasy literature anywhere on the planet (although Sci-Fi is popular). As long as I'm delurked, I guess I'll comment on Estlor's viewpoint on Mystara: Nicely thought out, but not the approach that I personally take. First of all, following the publishing of Wrath of the Immortals, I decided that it would no longer hurt my feel of Mystara to place it in a Crystal Sphere. Before I couldn't believe that it could be in a Crystal Sphere due to the Beagle's presence. Now, however, with the Beagle crossing Dimensional boundaries to get to Mystara, having Mystara in a Crystal Sphere no longer wreaks havok with my brain :) Secondly, I have come to the conclusion over the past few months that the Immortals of Mystara are the same types of beings as the Powers of the other planes. If it walks like a god, and talks like a god, its probably a god ;) I have decided that Mystara is a "god farm" for the Powers on the Outer Planes of existance. The Powers use Mystara to increase or replenish their ranks. Immortals in my campaign with the same names as gods usually ARE the gods, and their history is the true history behind them. For example, Garl Glittergold began his life millenia ago on Mystara as a dwarf and created the gnome race there. He then went on to spread gnomes elsewhere in the Prime and Outer Planes. Thirdly, the Spheres for Immortals are not strict definitions of reality. Instead, the Spheres are merely loose organizations of Immortals bound together through fealty or common interest. The names are chosen to represent their primary interest or focus, much like political parties in democratic nations. Fourthly, I've chosen to expand the Outer Planes to include the "neat" realms of Mystara's cosmology, including Brynn, Draesten, all of the planes from the Master's modules and Immortals modules and the Wrath Boxed set. In fact, I've decided that there are an infinite number of outer planes (as per D&D cosmology). This is much easier to reconcile with AD&D/Planescape than you might think. In my view, the planes of Planescape are those connected on the Great Road. Those planes that are off of the Road (i.e don't connect with the other planes in the alignment ring) are left by the wayside by the pretentious "Planars" in Sigil and in planes along the Road. (BTW: I have, however, removed Pyts and placed most of the Entropic Immortals in the Abyss and the other Chaotic Evil planes. Some of the other Immortals live in the Planes along the great road too, but many of them just create their own planes). Anyway, that's what I've done. Right now, I'm working on the Dimension of Nightmare. That's right, Dimension, NOT Demi-plane. Grrr... Someone at TSR hates the idea of different dimensions, I just know it, and thats too bad because the Dimension of Nightmare as presented in the Gold Set was really different. The WotI Dim of Night was okay too, but I miss the pentaspaces and quadraspaces and stuff. I've probably rambled on long enough. Does anyone else have ideas for integrating the worlds together? (Wraps Cloak of Lurking back around self and hiding the Library of Trivial Knowledge again). - --- Jeremy Morris jjmorris@freenet.columbus.oh.usset, Powers need ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Morris Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 20:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Simon Seah wrote: > Er... No. > > I wanted something else, to get out of the Thor/Odin stereotype, and yet > still preserve the Norse flavor. > > In other words, what is the "norse flavor?" Okay, I'll take a stab at it, but I am not a historian or anthropologist by any means. I can, however, give you a rundown on what my reading of Norse mythology and books on Norse culture have given me[1]. First of all, the Vikings and the early Germanic people who made up the "Norse culture" were warriors, first and foremost. Most of the Norse myths take this into account. Notice that the Norse gods, like the Mystaran Immortals, could be killed. Also, note that they would not die of old age (which was viewed as a "bad" way to die). Indeed, although you might want to get away from the stereotypes of Thor and Odin, these are actually the best places to look for insight (IMHO). Thor was the brash warrior, bragging about his prowess and delivering. Always ready for combat and always winning. Loki, on the other hand, was the "Trickster". He did a lot of good things for the Aesir and the Vanaeir, but his cunning often led him to doing things that had the gods mad at him (like shaving off all of Sif's hair while she slept). Looking at these examples, you see a lot of the people's reverence of the warriors who jump into battle ready to fight for their cheiftan/king/leige at a moment's notice and a caution against being "too smart" for their own good. Odin, however, is the example of a wise leader. Early stories about Odin picture him much like Thor. As he grows older, however, he grows wiser and becomes the model of Viking leadership. Odin is seen as the perfect leader, Physically able to hold his own in combat, wise enough to know which fights to pick, Just enough to render judgement on his people, and merciful enough to sacrifice for his chosen people. Like most cultures, much can be found out about the norse by picking apart their gods. In addition, check out some history books about the norse and germanic peoples. Fascinating stuff, and it leads to a better understanding of their mythology as well. BTW: I think everyone should be very happy that I didn't answer the question what is the "norse flavor?" with the response: "Best when sprikled over ice cream... [1] And Thor comics. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are amazing when it comes to accurately portraying Norse culture :/ ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 18:45 PDT Subject: [Mystara] [O] Oriental History: Interested? Mystaran's: Along the same vein as my earlier post about Oriental Dragons, I was thinking that getting a hold of some of the *basic* History of China and Japan would be a great way to jump start some of our imaginations. (Especially for those of us who don't know a THING about either country). So I hopped on over to the old bookshelf and started rummaging through my ancient, 1980 edition, of "The World Book Encyclopedia". (You really can't get much more "basic" than that! :-) There seems to be quite a lot of information that would be a great place to get started for idea bashing and brainstorming. (And the fact that its' the 1980 edition doesn't really matter since we're not really interested in anything after the 1500's or so...) However, I wanted to check to be sure that people didn't mind if I started posting this kind of information to the Mystara List. It is relevant in the sense that we are trying to create an MOrient Net.GAZ, but some people may think that its overkill. I'd probably start with basic political history, and might delve into the artisitic, philosophical and other relevant topics as time goes on. So, let me know whether (a) you'd mind seeing it go through the list and (b) whether you'd like to see it regardless. If there aren't enough votes for "too the list", I'll consider sending the information out to interested parties so we can try to get an e-mail "brainstorm" session happening based on the data. That's all this time! - -=< strawberryJAMM >=--- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 18:37 PDT Subject: [Mystara] [O] Info on Oriental Dragons Mystarans: At the bottom of this post is a (somewhat lengthy) discussion of Oriental Dragons as taken from the book "Dragons, A Natural History", by Dr. Karl From ???@??? Thu Aug 08 11:32:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA27921; Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:38:03 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA29665 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:19:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:19:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199608060519.AAA29665@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #186 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5386919210d5177430e1078c37d42c97 Shuker. While the dragons of the MOrient will most likely be significantly different, I thought this information might be a good hook up for our imaginations. In particular, the maturing process is interesting, though I suspect it would need a lot of modification. I also think the point about the "five toed" version of the azure "spiritual dragon" being the insignia of the emperor could prove useful -- perhaps the ranks of "nobility" of the dragons (and half-dragons) in MChina depend on the number of claws they have. (in other words, the number of claws would prove an individual's lineage). Comments? Ideas? Brain Storms? Please post! - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- =========================================================================== Oriental Dragon exhibit many fundamental differences from their Western counterparts, in particular, their ability to fly even when wingless; their generally benevolent nature and relationship with people; and the reverence for these ethereal dragons held by the people of these countries. "Indeed, many of the East's most ancient and august human lineages actually claim descent from them." According to Wang Fu (active during the Han dynasty, 206BC - AD220), the Chinese dragon is actually composed of a very complex combination of features, drawn from nine very distinct entities: head of a camel, eyes of a demon, ears of a cow, horns are the branched antlers of a stag, neck of a snake, belly of a clam, the soles of its feet are a tiger's, claws are an eagle's and the 117 scales sheathing its long body are those of a carp. Of these scales, 81 are infused with "yang" (benevolent essence) and 36 with "yin" (malign essence) for although Oriental dragons are primarily benign, their influence can sometimes be malevolent too. "Even its voice is ambivalent: likened to the jingling of copper pans, it is neither mellifluous nor cacophonous." The male dragon's potent power is said to derive from a large, luminous pearl which is concealed under its chin or throat by folds of skin. Part of this power included an adept ability at shape changing, good enough to succesfully emulate the human form. The Chinese dragon is said to mature and metamorphosis over a period of 3000 years. First it is hatched from a gemlike ege laid 1000 years earlier, it starts life as a water snake which takes 500 years to develop the head of a carp. It is now known as a "kiao". Over the next 1000 years it continues its fishlike development and acquires the scales of a carp, and develops four short limbs with four sharp claws each, an elongated tail, and a bearded face. It is now called a "kiao-lung" or simply a "lung" which translates as "deaf" because although it has ears, they do not work. Durring the next 500 years, the "lung" grows a pair of horns -- through which it can hear. Now it is known as a "kioh-lung" which is the most familiar form of the Chinese dragon, however it has still not completed its metamorphosis. After yet another 1000 years, it will gain the rarest characteristics of the Oriental Dragon: a series of branching wings. "Fully mature at last, the winged dragon is termed a "ying-lung" and is truly a wonder to behold." There are several types of Chinese dragons, but the four most important ones are: 1) "t'ien lung" -- the celestial dragon, protector of the heavens and guarding of the gods' heavenly abodes. 2) "shen-lung" -- the spiritual dragon, the azure-scaled master of storms and skyborne bringer of rain. 3) "ti-lung" -- the dragon of land, stream and river, which spends springtime in heaven and autumn in the sea. 4) "fu-ts'ang lung" -- the treasure dragon, keeper of secret hoards of priceless jewels and precious metals within the deepest, darkest vaults of the earth. A special "breed" of the "shen-lung" which had five toes was known as the "imperial dragon" and only the emperor of China was permitted to use this image for decorative purposes. "The penalty imposed upon anyone appropriating this insignia was death." Other notable Chinese dragons include the yellow dragon or dragon horse, a divine messenger that arose from the River Lo, revealing the eight trigrams of the system of diviniation known as the I-Ching; the human-bodied fire dragon "lung-wang" (i.e., he has the head of a dragon on the body of a human) - -- the immortal dragon king, inhabiting an opulent palace on the ocean floor; and the thunder dragon, with obsidian scales, which often transforms itself into a small boy whose skin is bright ultra-marine and who rides upon a scarlet carp. But, the oddest Chinese dragon would be the "t'ao t'ieh", which has only one head and a single pair of forelegs, but two bodies, each with its own pair of hind legs and tail. "Exiled to the outer darkness of space in the second millennium B.C. by the emperor Shin, this six-legged monster personifies gluttony, which is the literal translation of its name, and it is often depicted on dishes as a deterrent to greed." The Chinese dragon and the Japanese dragon are superficially similar, although the Japanese ones tend to be more serpentine in shape and are less prominantly aerial. The most familiar Japanese dragon is th "tatsu" which descended from a primitive variety of Chinese dragon. Unlike its ancestor, it is traditionally associated more itimately with the sea than with rain - -- for Japan is less vuulnerable than China to drought-related devastation, reducing the necessity to pray to rain-releasing dragon deities. =========================================================================== - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 20:29:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara and those PS and SJ locations On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Jeremy Morris wrote: > Thirdly, the Spheres for Immortals are not strict definitions of reality. > Instead, the Spheres are merely loose organizations of Immortals bound > together through fealty or common interest. The names are chosen to > represent their primary interest or focus, much like political parties in > democratic nations. An idea that appeals to me, as well, if only for aesthetic reasons- If the spheres were so rigidly defined as they are presented in much of the literature, why then, would Atzanteotl be fooled by Rafiel's treatment of the Shadowelves into thinking that he is a follower of Entropy? It should be obvious to all and sundry that he is a member of the Sphere of Energy, unless there is some sort of leeway allowed. Just thought I'd let you all know how I felt... :) ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan M Thompson" Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 22:35:02 +0000 Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! Where can I get this material? I seemed to have missed the original post. Jonathan M. Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAlpine wildcat@prysm.net Keeper of the Battletech Mailing List - email btech@prysm.net to subsribe Resident member of the SCA, SCV and Starfleet. "I say my good man, what year is it?" - The Doctor [William Harnell] ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 20:57:17 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Order of the Owl At 07:29 PM 8/5/96 -0400, Sir George wrote: >The only problem I have with the Order is the animation of >Lightning Zombies. Wouldn't Moridae/Okuwa have a problem with >animating the dead? Also, I don't think Benekander has enough >control over the energy of the mirror shield for this (assuming, >as in Phase I, this the cause). Very good issue to bring up. It may be worth noting, by the way, that my campaign was an OD&D one, where clerics all normally get the same spell lists. What I've done by way of "specialty priests" is merely to replace some of the spells that seem antithetical or least relevant to the Immortal in question with others. Same as has been done in many of the Gazetteers, such as the Northern Reaches and Ylaruam. They offer a new spell for those clerics and say which one is lost. So, Animate Dead was something I was directly confronted with, as opposed to deciding whether Order clerics should have access to a "sphere of necromancy," since that's an AD&D thing. So, from there I was thinking about the Animate Dead spell and thought it would be neat if Order clerics' animated dead were lightning zombies since it fit with the magic of the Shield. My assumption has always been that Benekander doesn't need to control the Mirror Shield for his clerics to have powers that emulate it, because his power and the Shield's power have a common source, the unique magic of his alien world (or, according to your preference, the magic of Mystara when distorted by the alien technology). Remember that Rheddrian's Staff (which Benekander himself created, I believe), had the penalty that with extended use it would turn the user into a lightning zombie. I don't think of the lightning zombie quality being a matter of choice for Benekander, rather that if a cleric of his were to animate dead, that's just how they're going to turn out. As far as ethics are concerned, there is where I didn't do enough thinking ahead. Carl (Okuwa's player) tried to engage me in discussions about the morality, much as you are now, and also issues unique to creating the undead but otherwise quite likeable lightning zombies. The honest truth is that I always shirked off the questions and he never had occassion to use the spell anyway. :) So, it probably doesn't fit. Granted its use could be justified in an emergency, but there's definitely another spell that would be appropriate and more frequently used. Something I never had a decent opportunity to do but would have liked is to have Crackle (the young lightning zombie) show up much later in the PCs' adventures as a mid-level adventurer of some sort. >I would love to see your list of spells, as well as a brief >write-up of Okuwa. Keep up the good work. Thanks for the support (Why am I thinking Bartles and James?). Last I heard from Carl was via email...he sent it from a cyber coffee shop in Ireland (!) where he was vacationing/exploring alone for a month. I don't know much longer he has there or when he'll be back, but it can't be too long. I'm going to ask him to either mail me or email to the list his character sheet and list of spells, since that would be faster than getting my mother to send anything from Florida, where I have my copy :) Toodles, /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Kaviyd@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:23:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] AD&D or D&D In a message dated 96-08-05 02:42:34 EDT, jovard@polarnet.com (J. Ovard) writes: << I find it hard to believe that the entire Elf race meets the Intelligence requirements that are placed on the race in OD&D, so it only makes sense to use the "Warrior-Elf" option. At least to some extent. >> Actually, it is not all that hard to believe -- after all, AD&D Elves have a minimum intelligence of 8, so positing a minimum intelligence of 9 for Mystaran Elves is not too much of a stretch. What is a stretch, however, is the idea that all of these Elves have the discipline required to maintain spell books and do all the other things that Mages do. After all, just because a character can become a Mage doesn't mean that he necessarily does. ------------------------------ From: Estlor Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 00:26:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wither the Old Ones? Sir George Anonymous wrote: > > [Image] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi all, > > On Sunday, July 28, Leblanc queried: > > >the great ones > >are kind of immortals to the immortrals, would anybody have more > >info on > >them or know where I can get info If you mean the Old Ones, TSR has little to say. Basically, they live in the Dimensional Vortex, they have more power than TSR could put in a rule book, and they control the Blackballs. The only way to be one is to rise to 36th level Hierarch, go back to mortality, achieve Immortality, rise to 36th level again, and try to run the cycle for a third try. That gets you a one way trip to live with them. Also, WotI showed us they looked like humans that were entirely made up of the voids of space. And it hinted that Sinbad, the Immortal patron of long voyages, was an Old One in disguise. One *last* last note: The Multiverese was a creation of theirs to see if new Old Ones could arise from mortals, and its worked twice, if I recall correctly. Estlor ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 21:32:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Which areas Known World undeveloped? On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > 16)Izonda I think this area is a desert now, too. One of my old characters was supposedly from there- way back when, before we really paid any attention to things like 'world-building' or 'role-playing' ;). Ahh, well do I remember the days of Hack 'n Slash.... *sigh* > 19)Pelatan Wasn't this referred to as the Matriarchy of Pelatan? If so, seems a suitable place to set up an Amazonian culture. Nothing specific ever printed about it to my knowledge, though... > 21)Nentsun Didn't Haldemar say that this was an Ethengarian word for a Heldanner's armpit? > 24-25)Sea Kingdoms Too bad nothing about these ever saw print. Sound like some interesting places. Could refer, I suppose, to the kingdoms of the Merrow (mermen) and Tritons. Aside from Undersea, there is the Merrow kingdom of ? down by the Thanegioth Archipelago. I'd imagine these folk had to come from somewhere, no? ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #186 ***************************** mystara-digest Thursday, 8 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 187 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Estlor Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 00:35:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara and those PS and SJ locations Anias Pasi wrote: > > [Image] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > a few corrections; > > > 2.) Mystara contains its equivalent of all the other locations (Astral, > > Ethereal, Prime, Elemental, Quasi/Para-Elemental, and Outer Planes), > > though they are not all exact replicas. Mystara's Outer Planes are not > > neatly organized into alignment planes. There are many outer planes, > > including the Old Alphatia and Vortex Planes. > > actually Vortex is a dimension, and not a nice one... > > > Real World: This is our dimension. If you recall, it *was* visited by > > Immortals in the Immortal Storm OD&D adventure module (IM1 I think???). > > It is pointed out that the dimension the immortals wisited is not > our, but one wery similar to our, with some differences anyway. > > So there is actually two dimensions; our and the one in IM1. > > And you forgot the dimension of nightmares, a wery interesting one :) > > Pasi > ---------------------------------------------------------------Alright, alright...I goofed! So sue me. But if you recall, in the gold boxed set on Immortals, they went into a long dissertation about different dimensions (height, length, width, and the rest slip me). I guess that was what threw me off. Estlor ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 22:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Savage Coast is Now Available! On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Jonathan M Thompson wrote: > Where can I get this material? I seemed to have missed the original > post. Either from the MPGN site, at... ftp://ftp.mpgn.com (I don't recall the exact path) ...or through the Mystara Mailing List home page, at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 22:03:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] Lightning Zombies and other stuff The topic of re-animation/Lightning Zombies has quirked my interest, and so I thought I'd post my take on the LZ stuff in the WoTI. Just for fun, if for no other discernible purpose. :) My take on the LZ's is that they were caused by radiation emanating from the shield (remember that it was soaked in nuclear radiation from the explosion of the Beagle), and that was why they were reanimated, glowed in the dark, et al. In effect, I took them as a sort of play on the old B-movie radioactive mutant zombies. :) What I did in my campaign, then, is play off of this. Instead of intelligent zombies, I made them mindless, radioactive, brain-eating freaks. Also, the whole region around Corran Keep (which I turned into a villa, btw- actually adapted Caldwell's Keep for this purpose) was permeated with radiation, mutating the surroundings. Radioactive trees, rats... (can anyone say 'time to break out the Gamma World rules?'). Sort of fun to have a mindless zombie kill-fest, with some nasty radiation (possibly mutation causing- "Gee, I've heard of Aquatic Elves, but not Aquatic Halflings... at least, I'm assuming those gills are normal?") thrown in to boot. ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:22:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wither the Old Ones? On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Estlor wrote: > > If you mean the Old Ones, TSR has little to say. > Basically, they live in the Dimensional Vortex, they have more power > than TSR could put in a rule book, and they control the Blackballs. > The only way to be one is to rise to 36th level Hierarch, go back to > mortality, achieve Immortality, rise to 36th level again, and try to run > the cycle for a third try. That gets you a one way trip to live with > them. Or that's the theory, anyway - what the Immortals believe may be true. It's also entirely possible that that process is a one-way trip to oblivion courtesy of the blackballs. It's only happened twice in all known Immortal history, and the two who were lucky enough to do it have never come back to talk about it... > Also, WotI showed us they looked like humans that were entirely made up > of the voids of space. Or at least one does. Given the variety of appearances available to Immortals alone, I'd say that we can't generalize to all Old Ones by looking at the equivalent of a single one's Manifestation Form... > And it hinted that Sinbad, the Immortal patron > of long voyages, was an Old One in disguise. Which would be an interesting idea - the Old Ones adopting Immortal Forms just as Immortals adopt Mortal Forms to influence events among their subjects... - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 01:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] [O] Info on Oriental Dragons strawberryJAMM pontificated: > > At the bottom of this post is a (somewhat lengthy) discussion of Oriental > Dragons as taken from the book "Dragons, A Natural History", by Dr. Karl > Shuker. While the dragons of the MOrient will most likely be significantly > different, I thought this information might be a good hook up for our > imaginations. In particular, the maturing process is interesting, though I > suspect it would need a lot of modification. I also think the point about the Thanks about the post, now I know where did TSR and SJG got some of their ideas from. However, some of the info below doesn't quite seems right to me. It probably are not wrong, just not the popular description of dragons. For example, someone writting about Arthurian legend might describe Lancelot as average looking perhaps even slightly malformed. While that is correct based on some of the older works, it is not the way he is commonly described as today. Of course, as our creation are just based on China's folk tale, it doesn't really matter which folk tale we draw our idea from. But I just like to point out the following passage by no mean is the only description of dragons. > "five toed" version of the azure "spiritual dragon" being the insignia of the > emperor could prove useful -- perhaps the ranks of "nobility" of the dragons > (and half-dragons) in MChina depend on the number of claws they have. > (in other words, the number of claws would prove an individual's lineage). This is almost certain to be a mistake. Emperor's insignia is a 5-toed gold dragon. Major officials can wear robes with 4-toed dragon (I'm not certain about the color of those dragons). Next tier wear 3-toed dragon robe. > face. It is now called a "kiao-lung" or simply a "lung" which translates as > "deaf" because although it has ears, they do not work. Durring the next 500 Where the name "lung" (chinese for dragon, pernounced more like "lone" as in alone in Mandarin) come from is in constant debate. > 1) "t'ien lung" -- the celestial dragon, protector of the heavens and > guarding of the gods' heavenly abodes. > 2) "shen-lung" -- the spiritual dragon, the azure-scaled master of storms > and skyborne bringer of rain. > 3) "ti-lung" -- the dragon of land, stream and river, which spends > springtime in heaven and autumn in the sea. > 4) "fu-ts'ang lung" -- the treasure dragon, keeper of secret hoards of > priceless jewels and precious metals within the > deepest, darkest vaults of the earth. I don't think this is a popular way of dividing dragons. > "The penalty imposed upon anyone appropriating this insignia was death." Actually, it probably going to be much worse ... - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 23:50:31 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wither the Old Ones? At 12:22 AM 8/6/96 -0500, Scott Johnson wrote: >> Also, WotI showed us they looked like humans that were entirely made up >> of the voids of space. > >Or at least one does. Given the variety of appearances available to >Immortals alone, I'd say that we can't generalize to all Old Ones by >looking at the equivalent of a single one's Manifestation Form... I've always assumed that Old Ones have no inherent form but take that of anything they want, and that a human shaped void just seemed like something that would impress the hell out of Immortals (and the PCs)! :) /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Patrick Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:54:30 +0000 Subject: [Mystara] [O] MMyanmar Hey everyone! Here's a little something I thought up in a kind of story form. It's based on a Mystaran version of the nation of Myanmar, better known as Burma. Sorry that it's so long, feel free to skim over as much as you like. If anyone is interested, there are some incredible pictures of this culture at the Myanmar government's home page. It reads like the propaganda of a third world dictator, but it still contains great pictures: http://www.myanmar.com/gov/tourist/anc.html If you find this at all interesting, I advise you to check out this site and to also reply to this post with comments/criticisms/whatever :~) An excerpt from the diary of Taferias of Mafertat, Captain of the Glorious ; Faithful Explorer to Her Imperial Majesty, Eriadna the Wise; Wizard Extraordinaire; etc.; etc.; etc. " ...We believed all was lost once the ship ran aground, for everyone knows that this area of the world holds nothing remotely resembling civilization. We couldn't determine our exact location due to the storm, which was still as fierce as ever, but we knew that we were somewhere on the jungle coast of the Sea of Steam or perhaps the Gulf of Tangor. At any rate, our chances looked grim: even if we did somehow manage to repair the ship, we still could not get away from this place without facing THEM again. At this point, I think I'd rather take my chances with the jungle. Daylight finally brought a clearing of the storm. The damage to the ship was not as serious as I feared that it might have been, but it would still require about a month of hard labor to repair, and we needed provisions. Even if it were repaired, could we get away from here by sea? I certainly had my doubts, but with the sun came new hopes for survival. I decided to lead an expedition up the coast a few miles in each direction in order to see what could be discovered. After a couple of miles we spotted something shining in the distance ahead of us. You can imagine my surprise when I saw, as we drew closer, a full-fledged town. Here! In what everyone knows is the absolute middle of nowhere! At first glance, I would have to guess that this town is about as big as home, back in Mafertat, Frisland, Alphatia. The homes were primarily made out of wood with straw and mud to seal them, and many small fishing canoes were moored along a full half-mile stretch of the shore and along the slow mouth of a wide river. The people going about their business in the town were undoubtedly human, but their complexion was unlike any other that I have seen. If I had to guess, I'd say that they were closest to the Jennites. They wore fairly typical clothes for this climate-- scant and brightly colored, but not indecent. Aside from its size, it seemed to be a fairly typical native village, except for the great temple or palace structure of some sort at the center! It's gracefully soaring, curving architecture towered over the rest of the town, dwarfing it in comparison. But the most astonishing thing was that this structure was covered with what appeared to be gold! When we came closer and the peasants noticed us, they seemed somewhat fightened, but more an uneasiness of strangers than the panic of terror. They backed away, until three men in red robes with completely bald heads came toward us. Despite what appeared to be a great treasure here, we didn't appear to be in a very good position to take it by force, so I made the obvious choice to try to befriend them. They three bald men bowed before us, and we returned the gesture. I cast a spell so that we could communcate, hoping that they wouldn't interpret it as a threatening gesture. They never batted an eye, and I began to speak to them. I explained our situation (they were most From ???@??? Fri Aug 09 13:29:35 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA06547; Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:54:18 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA17365 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:27:30 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:27:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199608080527.AAA17365@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #187 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ab1473183cffe5520b636a4c68f4d7d1 impressed that we had actually made it here across the sea), and asked them for whatever help that they could give us. The monks, as they turned out to be, and the peasants gladly and freely welcomed us into their homes, despite the fact that almost none of my men could communicate with the natives. I sat on the floor at a low table with my monk/host and shared a meal of rice and chicken with a strange, foul-smelling, though pleasant-tasting, spice. We also shared several cups of a delicious tea, and then he allowed me to rest the night in his home. It never occurred to me until I was already lying on my bedroll that they never once asked us to surrender our weapons. It turns out that the palace is actually something called a "Pagoda". Apparently it's a holy sight for their religion, which seems to involve extreme pacifism and kindness to all beings. They do not "worship" their patron immortal, as so many other primitive societies do, but look up to him as a role model and mentor in their own quest for enlightenment. They call their patron "Rohindartha," but I have never heard of such an immortal. Everyone in the town seems to be a fervent philosopher; Allanmyo, my host, explains that every boy of the town, as well as many of the girls, join the monastery for at least a few months of their lives. If it is their calling, they will spend their lives at the monastery. The monks and nuns (I met a few nuns today) seem to actually be people from all walks of life: many are typical clerics, but there are people reminiscent of Sindhi mystics, and there are even a few magic-users! They follow their philosophy of pacifism and respect for all life very rigidly, though it is believed to be each individual's responsibility to determine right or wrong for himself. Most of my men, along with some of the natives, went back to the ship today to try to repair it, but I decided to stay to learn what I could of this land. The dome of the Great Pagoda is real gold! What's more, the natives tell me that this is only one town in the great Land A Thousand Pagodas. Allanmyo told me that there is a great king of this land who rules from his capital at Pantang, the Glorious City of the Hundred Pagodas. The city I'm in, by the way is called Rangyon. Anyway, Allanyo says that there are hundreds of pagodas throughout the Kingdom. Not all of them are made out of gold; there's not that much gold in the whole world! But this is obviously an incredible kingdom nonetheless! From how the monks describe the Kingdom, it sounds more like a very loose federation of tribes united in their faith and their symbolic allegiance to their King at Pantang. Today I awoke to the sounds of shouting in the village. I quickly drew on some clothes and then rushed outside to see what the commotion was. A pair of tigers were in the center of the town, and townspeople were running helter-skelter to try to avoid their fangs and claws. I rushed forward and fired a lightning bolt from my wand. Unfortunately my aim was off in my haste, and it only grazed the side of one of the tigers. I prepared to shoot again, this time more accuraterly, when I heard a spell cast from behind me and felt myself unable to move. Me! An Officer of the Imperial Alphatian Navy! A powerful wizard! ME! HELD?!? Allanmyo ran from behind me and began calling orders to the peasants, who, instead of panicking, listened and followed his orders. They all ran in the same directions, leaving an open path for the tigers to escape, which they quickly did, running back into the jungle. They poured some sort of tea which, in retrospect, must have been drugged into my mouth. It released me from my paralysis, but also seemed to relax my tension and calm my nerves and my fury. Allanmyo explained to me that the tigers were simply passing through town this morning when the townspeople began to awake, scaring the tigers, and accidentally herding them towards the center of town. The tigers had eaten well that night, and, being one with nature, had no desire to kill. As this was the case, all that Allanmyo had to do was allow them to escape to go back to their cave and rest, all they ever wanted in the first place. This excitement (and probably the tea) helped convince me to go back to bed for a long nap. After my peaceful rest, I had much of the night to converse with the monks. They explained many things of this part of the world, claiming that great empires exist where Alphatian textbooks have always taught exist nothing but barbarians! They also explained some more about their philosophy, which sounds fairly good (and similar to the Great Immortal Alphatia's) except that it is horribly impractical. Late this evening, one of the monks spotted something moving quietly through town. When we went to investigate and discovered three ghouls prowling the night, I restrained my impulse to attack, remembering last time. You can imagine my surprise when the monks all raced forward and fought the ghouls with such incredible fury that nothing I've ever fought couldstand up to their combined might... These are a strange people: peaceful, yet powerful; knowladgeable, yet unknown; full of seeming contradictions. This diary does not do them justice, with all the complexities of their society, but it at least sheds some light on what until now has been a completely unknown kingdom, right under the nose of Great Alphatia! I for one am certainly glad to consider these people my friends, and I will never spread word of this land to those money-grubbing gold-seekers who would try to rob them blind. Besides, I might be able to turn a healthy profit off of trade with The Land Of A Thousand Pagodas! " Well, once again I apologize for the length of this post, but I sincerely ask that some of you take a look at this and see if you think that it is potential material for out Gazetteer-to-be for MOrient. Thanks! Patrick ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Oriental culture As for the meaning of the name Zyxl, I don't think we need to be too concern about that as long as it could come from Japanese. There are plenty of real world and Mystara location names that doesn't really meant much anymore. Especially add in multiple translation, change in language, etc. BTW, I think in one issue of Dragon, it was mentioned that one town name in Mystara actually meant goat dropping, does anyone know which town is that? I have done some thinking regarding to the "gods" on MChina, but are a bit buzy last week. I will write it up soon, perhaps tonight. > > > >Here are a couple of suggestions: > >Jiku could be a term for the Emperor of what being called Zyxl, and that > >the country's borders were described as being only bounded by the knowledge, > >experience and awareness of the Emperor. Obviously this didn't come across > >in the translation. >;-) > > I rather like this option. A definite case of "mis-understood/translation" > And, even if this error was eventually discovered, once the name "Zyxl" had > become relatively common among the traders who visited there, it would be > difficult to get it changed. (Think of how many people still call 'Bejing' > 'Peking' instead) > > >Alternatively, it could mean that their country (or the Emperor, or something) > >is described as the pivot (or central mechanism) for the world's profits, > >best interests, etc. > > From this perspective, rather than "profits", wouldn't the idea of "sap" > be usful, if you think of "sap" as the "life" of plants and (possibly) > the planet? Then Zyxl would be the "pivot of sap" or in other words, > a metaphor for the "heart of life". (The meaning of "jiku" as a > "stem"/"stalk" also fits in with the term "sap"/"juice" in a similar way). > > This "metaphor" could also have been a "mistranslation" of what some > native was trying to explain, and eventually stuck. > - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 23:21:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Which areas Known World undeveloped? At 03:32 PM 8/4/96 -0400, you wrote: >Well, I was just looking at the Masters book Known World Map and was >wondering which of the countries and areas have been developed in various >supplements and which ones have never been expounded on. So here's my >list..feel free to correct me/inform me if anything has been written >about these places: > >1)Addakia Mentioned in CoM as the place ( the Addakian sound ) where the two groups of returnist elves ( from Grunland/Vulcania ) eventually met to continue their migrations together. >2)Armof Gd Dragon #200. Winged elves and minotaurs, as well as demi-ogres... >7)Cestia In one of the early Princess Ark series... >9)Empire of Dorfin IV Somewhere it was mentioned as a trick by a gnome... >10)Empire of Great Khan-I guess we can assume this is Mongol-type area Area slated for the development of the MOrient... >21)Nentsun Also part of the area for the MOrient... >29)Vulcania Ancient elven colony of Grunland. >31)Zyxl Another area kept for MOrient... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Wed, 7 Aug 96 20:08:54 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Savage Baronies Maps Does anyone have the Savage Baronies boxed set? If so, could you tell me whether or not the maps therein are hex format or the same as those abominations in the Red Steel set? Thanks, Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 23:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara][O] Celestial Court One common motif in Chinese mythology is the Celestial Court, which is similar to the Mt. Olympus of the Greek myth that it is a gathering of the Chinese gods. However, since the number of Chinese gods could easily be in the hundreds if not thousands, it would be difficult in my opinion to create that many immortals. So one way of getting around this that I thought of is using the seelie court. For some reason the fairies in MChina is more interested in the walfare of the mortals than their western counterparts. So they have been "helping out" quite a bit over the history of MChina. So the commoner mistaken some of the more powerful good folks to be immortals and start to warship them. The clerics in MChina know that is not the case, but the idea is too deep rooted for them to bother to change it. The famous people that are believed to incarnation of gods could just be changlings or actual fairy spirit incarnated into human baby for one life time, probably either as a punishment or the seelie court like to get something done that a normal human can't be trusted. So, this is the gist of my idea, what do people think about it? I'm also thinking about several different ways that we can treat the Dragon emperor. One is that the emperor is a true dragon is known to every one and no one will question his authority. This will make the campaign in MChina more static. Another is that the emperor SHOULD be a dragon, but no one knows for sure. This will add more court intrigue into the campaign as all of the contenders for the position of emperor like to think they are the true dragon and try to convince others of that too. The Dragon Throne is probably a powerful artifact that kill any normal human sits on there. One needs to have special blood or spirit inside to safely sit on it, but he not necessarily have to be a dragon, as other animal incarnation could also sit on it. So by just sitting on the Throne can't be used as a test. Just a few ideas that popped into my head. Feel free to make any comments. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Dennis.Sullivan.Family@worldnet.att.net Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:52:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Savage Baronies Maps At 12:08 AM 8/8/96 +0000, you wrote: > > Does anyone have the Savage Baronies boxed set? If so, could you >tell me whether or not the maps therein are hex format or the same as >those abominations in the Red Steel set? The Savage Baronies map is the same type as the Red Steel maps, but it contains one big map of the entire Savage Coast with less detail. There are no hexes, unfortunately. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #187 ***************************** mystara-digest Friday, 9 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 188 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Johnson Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 00:02:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Savage Baronies Maps Geoff Gander wrote: > > Does anyone have the Savage Baronies boxed set? If so, could you > tell me whether or not the maps therein are hex format or the same as > those abominations in the Red Steel set? > > Thanks, > > Geoff The map in the Savage Baronies boxed set does not use the hex format. It shows an overview of the entire Savage Coast region and uses the same style as the Red Steel boxed set. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ From: pignatelli@astrpd.pd.astro.it (Ezio Pignatelli) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 16:42:10 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Penhaligon Hi all, Since I was a 'silent' member if the mailing list for almost a month, I finally decided it was time to let you know of my presence :-) First, the introduction: my name is Ezio, and I am PhD student in Astronomy in Padova, Italy. I started playing OD&D when I was 19, i.e 9 years ago. I stopped for 3 years, then I started again one year ago, but as a DM this time. I am slowly discovering - and enjoying - the realm of Mystara, even if it is so large I often find myself lost in it :) Now, the question: I am currently ending the B12 adventure, "Queen's Harvest". But I found some inconsistencies with GAZ1 (both GAZ1 and B12 are set in the year 1000): a) Lord Kaerin Penhaligon is being engaged with Alerena, the _daughter_ of Baron Desmond Kelvin II. Now, in GAZ1 that baron is supposed to be young, so that he's trying to marry one of Stephan's daughters. How comes he already has a daughter? b) In that module there is a very special sword. According to Expert rules, since the sword is taking possession over Ilyana Penhaligon, this should be considered as an intelligent, chaotic sword (so giving damage to any non-chaotic PC trying to wield it). Am I wright? c) It also said that the sword was once property of Elendorath, "a queen-warrior that ruled the local lands in terror and misery hundreds of years in the past". Do you know of any other information TSR gave about this queen? Some of you did wrote something? d) I was also interested, since my PC are currently going back to penhaligon, in what of the Penhaligon Trilogy you feel can be set into Mystara. I only have the first book right now, and it seems that the events in that book could be put somewhere between 1003 and 1009 AC. (i.e., right into WoI). The only thing I am interested to know is if you feel that Flinn has already been banished in the year 1000, or not. I would say yes. Ezio ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:18:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? >What I guess I was trying to say is, what are the elements of, say, Thor, >which are important in Norse society as pictured in Mystara? If you are looking for an alternative to Thor, you could try using such deities as Tyr, the norse god of war. He is the one who put his hand in the Fenris' mouth so that they could bind him. The wolf bit off his hand. Tyr ruled the sky and battle, and gave the gifts of law and order to the norse people. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:21:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wither the Old Ones? >One *last* last note: The Multiverese was a creation of theirs to see if >new Old Ones could arise from mortals, and its worked twice, if I recall >correctly. Wasn't the multiverse created by Draedens? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:18:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? >So, I guess I'll start there, and make Thor a legendary giant-slayer >figure (all the more impressive in the new AD&D write-ups on giants), >perhaps worshipped by other gung-ho berserking >giant-slayer/monster-vanquishing/ale-guzzling scruffy guys who are 7'2" >and use battleaxes in one hand (or something like that...) Actually, this would more typical of the worshippers of Odin. The "berserkers" were holy-warriors of Odin, who prayed to him for protection and placed such faith in his prtection that they went howling into battle naked except for animal skins and their weapons. They were also responsible for most of the worship of Odin, being closer to the idea of a cleric ( holy warriors along the lines of the Templars ) in norse culture. Thor was, however, a notorious giant slayer although he was outwitted by one or two of them... >But I can't quite break out of the need to get him a big hammer, His hammer wasn't really very large, it was a very POWERFUL throwing hammer. Other typical norse weapons are the sword, single headed axe, and the spear. a cool >gauntlet, and a nifty girdle. The goats I can dump, no sweat. >What I need is some kind of ... "signature" for him, which doesn't make >him seem un-Norse (that is, "just like another fighter"). Thor's main enemy was the midgard serpent. It was Thor who will battle the serpent at Ragnarok. Thor was not too cunning and seemed to handle most things with brute force, although at times he could be clever, he just preferred the direct approach. He pretended to be a woman to marry the giant who stole his hammer once. I thought of >axes, but funny that no Norse god I can think of off-hand uses axes... The axe actually was one of Thor's symbols, although it was a two headed axe... >Besides, axes are appropriated by Dwarves already (though that would make >this Thor-substitute popular with those stunty fellows who also have >giant troubles in the Altan Tepes.) Thor's hammer was crafted by Dwarves as payment from Loki for his having cut off Sif's hair. > >Am I making any sense? Yes. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:20:54 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Re: >I thought this might be a good topic to discuss on the list- what >do you >think they might be foretelling for events taking place in 1014? > >My thoughts- > >#1) Obviously a reference to the shadowelves. Something about >'the >blighted oaks'? A reference to the warped trees of Aengmor.... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:20:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elven History and Migration At 07:42 PM 8/5/96 -0400, you wrote: > > >Hi all, > >On Tuesday, July 30, Joe Duncan mentioned: > >>I'm almost finished my elven history and migration analysis, >>would >>you like a copy when I'm done? > >By all means, post it to the list. I would love to see it. Sure. As soon as it's finished I will. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:21:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] New List of Immortals? At 08:11 PM 8/5/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Simon Seah wrote: > > >> Er... No. >> >> I wanted something else, to get out of the Thor/Odin stereotype, and yet >> still preserve the Norse flavor. >> >> In other words, what is the "norse flavor?" > >Okay, I'll take a stab at it, but I am not a historian or anthropologist >by any means. I can, however, give you a rundown on what my reading of >Norse mythology and books on Norse culture have given me[1]. > >First of all, the Vikings and the early Germanic people who made up the >"Norse culture" were warriors, first and foremost. Most of the Norse >myths take this into account. Notice that the Norse gods, like the >Mystaran Immortals, could be killed. Also, note that they would not die >of old age (which was viewed as a "bad" way to die). Indeed, although you >might want to get away from the stereotypes of Thor and Odin, these are >actually the best places to look for insight (IMHO). > >Thor was the brash warrior, bragging about his prowess and delivering. >Always ready for combat and always winning. Loki, on the other hand, was >the "Trickster". He did a lot of good things for the Aesir and the >Vanaeir, but his cunning often led him to doing things that had the gods >mad at him (like shaving off all of Sif's hair while she slept). Looking >at these examples, you see a lot of the people's reverence of the warriors >who jump into battle ready to fight for their cheiftan/king/leige at a >moment's notice and a caution against being "too smart" for their own good. > >Odin, however, is the example of a wise leader. Early stories about Odin >picture him much like Thor. As he grows older, however, he grows wiser >and becomes the model of Viking leadership. Odin is seen as the perfect >leader, Physically able to hold his own in combat, wise enough to know >which fights to pick, Just enough to render judgement on his people, and >merciful enough to sacrifice for his chosen people. > >Like most cultures, much can be found out about the norse by picking apart >their gods. In addition, check out some history books about the norse and >germanic peoples. Fascinating stuff, and it leads to a better >understanding of their mythology as well. > >BTW: I think everyone should be very happy that I didn't answer the >question what is the "norse flavor?" with the response: "Best when >sprikled over ice cream... > >[1] And Thor comics. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are amazing when it comes >to accurately portraying Norse culture :/ > > > > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:20:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Which areas Known World undeveloped? >> 29)Vulcania > >Let's see, Ice Elves down south, remnants of the former civilization >here, but far more barbaric, as they live within the Anti-Magic zone of >the hollow world opening. Also giant Sloths... > >The N'Djatwa (elf-ogres) live just north of Vulcania, in the mountains >west of the Vulture peninsula. > >Also, the land of the Earthshakers (CM4, I think?) where the ice gnomes >live in their huge machines and pummel the heck out of each other on a >daily basis, is far to the east. Elf-Ogres? Where were these mentioned? Giant Sloths? I fear I am not too familiar with this region of Mystara. Earthshakers? Plural? I though there was only one. Could you point out the reference to this in the module? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Joe Duncan Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:20:23 -0400 From ???@??? Sun Aug 11 14:19:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA13240; Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:09:16 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA01690 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:47:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:47:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199608092247.RAA01690@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #188 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 80d971b588e39897c167c6352d50ed57 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] AD&D or OD&D (was Re: Dragons) At 10:24 PM 8/4/96 PDT, you wrote: >Mystaran's: > >At 10:41 PM 8/4/96 -0400, you wrote: >> >> Those who want to can do that for their own campaigns, but we should >>keep the MOrient useable by people playing in both systems. It's not too >>hard to do it's just the method we have to decide on. Provide rules for both? >>Or make it general enough for both to use? > > I think I would tend to lean towards trying to keep our "Net.GAZ" in the making as typically "Mystaran" as possible. What I mean by that is that we >shouldn't make any of the general background and other information specific to >either OD&D or AD&D but it *should* be specific to the overall concept of >"Mystara". I agree with this whole-heartedly. > I also think that providing stats for any important NPC's and new MOrient >Monsters for both D&D and AD&D is a reasonable suggestion. There are standard >conversion rules in the back of the Cyclopedia, so it shouldn't be *too* difficult for each of us to develop the other set from whatever format we Combining the two thoughts here, it should be obvious that, unless a nation-specific reason is given anyone who does that original work of designing NPC's in AD&D terms should stick to having F/M Elves etc... It's just that that's the way *MYSTARA* is... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 16:00:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Which areas Known World undeveloped? On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Joe Duncan wrote: > Elf-Ogres? Where were these mentioned? Giant Sloths? I fear I am not > too familiar with this region of Mystara. Earthshakers? Plural? I though > there was only one. Could you point out the reference to this in the module? Let's see here. Most of this stuff was mentioned in the early articles of the Princess Ark (which, unfortunately didn't make it into the Champions of Mystara boxed set). The N'djatwa (elf-ogres), the Nagpa of Vulture Peninsula, the barbaric elves and the Giant Empathic Sloths of Vulcania were all mentioned circa Dragon Magazine #158-160 or so (not sure of the exact numbers. The articles started in 154, and these were among the earliest of his adventures). As for the Earthshakers: In the module, it mentions that they come from a distant land (I think it refers to the Northern Wilderness beyond Glantri in the module, actually). In AC11- Wondrous Inventions, under the description of Jaggar's Transforming Gargantoid, it mentions that Jaggar invented the Gargantoid after a trip to the southern continent, the home of the gnomes and their Earthshakers. He invented it to help aid the gnomes in their struggles against Alphatian intrusion. That's where I got that bit (for the most part) Also, the Hollow World map shows mention of Ice Gnomes settling that area of Vulcania (although the dates of their migration don't match up with dates for the origin of that race- oh, well.) Additionally, in the article with the N'Djatwa, these people tell Haldemar of the lands to the east which are inhabited by Giant Metallic Beings that beat up on each other constantly. I just sort of added all this together to come up with the land of the Earthshakers. (Also, all of this material is by Bruce Heard, with the exception of CM4 and the Hollow World boxed set, so it seems logical to me). Note that the N'Djatwa also mention seeing airships in the region of the Earthshakers realm, which made Haldemar stop and wonder. Could be Heldanners (who have an outpost somewhere north of the Vulture Peninsula- I believe it is where the artifact that powers their skyships is located), or it could be something altogether different. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:42:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Ezio Pignatelli wrote: First of all, let me say hello to Ezio, and welcome to the list! :) > Now, the question: I am currently ending the B12 adventure, "Queen's Harvest". > But I found some inconsistencies with GAZ1 (both GAZ1 and B12 are set in > the year 1000): I don't own B12, so I can't help you with the technical info in this module, but here are some thoughts that may help anyway: > a) Lord Kaerin Penhaligon is being engaged with Alerena, the _daughter_ > of Baron Desmond Kelvin II. Now, in GAZ1 that baron is supposed to be > young, so that he's trying to marry one of Stephan's daughters. How comes > he already has a daughter? IIRC, in GAZ1 Arelena is the adopted daughter of Baron (Patriarch) Sherlane Halaran, ruler of Threshold. Maybe the daughter in B12 is a different person; if so, I'm obviously wrong here. :P If not, though, this could be the person they are referring to. Heck, even if not, you could probably make it Patriarch Halaran's daughter, and disregard the whole Kelvin bit. Come to think of it, though, isn't Kelvin a cousin of the Duke's? Maybe there is an older Kelvin and a younger... who knows. I'm stretching now, possibly. Still, I think that bit about Patriarch Halaran might work... > b) In that module there is a very special sword. According to Expert rules, > since the sword is taking possession over Ilyana Penhaligon, this should > be considered as an intelligent, chaotic sword (so giving damage to any > non-chaotic PC trying to wield it). Am I wright? This seems logical to me. Could even be an artifact, I'd imagine. Or a Huptzeen, possibly, if you own the original Creature Catalog. > c) It also said that the sword was once property of Elendorath, "a queen > -warrior that ruled the local lands in terror and misery hundreds of years > in the past". Do you know of any other information TSR gave about this > queen? Some of you did wrote something? No published information that I've ever seen. What I'd probably do, though, is make her a Traladaran queen, possibly from the original Golden Age of heroes from Traldar legends, though, of course, she doesn't seem all that heroic. :) I'd probably make her post-Hutaakan/Beastman Invasion era; Another possibility is that she had ties with the Nithian empire. I'd say the whole thing is pretty ripe with opportunity- depending on where you want your campaign to go, you could set up her origin to lead your PC's in that direction. ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Date: Thu, 8 Aug 96 17:30:33 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon At 03:42 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Cthuludrew wrote: >On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Ezio Pignatelli wrote: >> a) Lord Kaerin Penhaligon is being engaged with Alerena, the _daughter_ >> of Baron Desmond Kelvin II. Now, in GAZ1 that baron is supposed to be >> young, so that he's trying to marry one of Stephan's daughters. How comes >> he already has a daughter? > >IIRC, in GAZ1 Arelena is the adopted daughter of Baron (Patriarch) >Sherlane Halaran, ruler of Threshold. Maybe the daughter in B12 is a >different person; if so, I'm obviously wrong here. :P If not, though, >this could be the person they are referring to. > >Heck, even if not, you could probably make it Patriarch Halaran's >daughter, and disregard the whole Kelvin bit. > >Come to think of it, though, isn't Kelvin a cousin of the Duke's? Maybe >there is an older Kelvin and a younger... who knows. I'm stretching now, >possibly. Still, I think that bit about Patriarch Halaran might work... Baron Halaran's daughter is Aleena, not Arelena. As far as trying to marry one of the duke's daughter's after already having one is concerned. I think there just wasn't enough thinking put into the matter (or someone didn't pay attention to previous material). Maybe Kelvin's previous wife died? He doesn't have to be too old to have a father, and marriages of young women to older men wouldn't seem so strange in a medieval setting like Karameikos, methinks. .02 /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:54:46 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon > a) Lord Kaerin Penhaligon is being engaged with Alerena, the _daughter_ > of Baron Desmond Kelvin II. Now, in GAZ1 that baron is supposed to be > young, so that he's trying to marry one of Stephan's daughters. How comes > he already has a daughter? Well, out of memory; Kelvin is not so young as you seem to think. But it would not be so strange to have a marriage between an older man and a younger girl, excpecially if it profits both families. As for hes daughter; he should not have one. But you could consider her a ward of his or an adopted child. It would not be so strange to a ruler to adopt a orphaned child of some special citizen. > b) In that module there is a very special sword. According to Expert rules, > since the sword is taking possession over Ilyana Penhaligon, this should > be considered as an intelligent, chaotic sword (so giving damage to any > non-chaotic PC trying to wield it). Am I wright? Not neccessarily. Not all intelligent swords need to work so as to make damage to differently aligned characters. excpecially if its intention is to posses the wielder. Also, the sword could just be cursed to bring up the bad sides of a person, or to change him/her to someone different, and so 'Posses' the wielder. > c) It also said that the sword was once property of Elendorath, "a queen-warrior that ruled the local lands in terror and misery hundreds of years in the past". Do you know of any other information TSR gave about this queen? Some of you did wrote something? I think the maker of the module just made up the name. But as she now excist, i would think, that the queen-warrior is just o name, not a real tittle. ie. she propably was a warrior and a ruler, but maybe not a real queen. She could have been a local traladaran ruler or a thyatian owerlord (a baron or a military commander who fought with the thyatians who invaded traladara) or something else. Or if you want her a real 'gueen' she could have been one of the following rulers after Halav, or even an Thyatian empress who at some time had some forces at the area and even visited it herself to check out the value of the land (to see wether its worth invading - it wasn't at the moment :) > d) I was also interested, since my PC are currently going back to penhaligon, > in what of the Penhaligon Trilogy you feel can be set into Mystara. > I only have the first book right now, and it seems that the events in that book > could be put somewhere between 1003 and 1009 AC. (i.e., right into WoI). > The only thing I am interested to know is if you feel that Flinn has already > been banished in the year 1000, or not. I would say yes. I would say yes too. the books propably start around 1001 or 1002. But otherwise I have not included the happenings of the books to my campaing word. Too wild :) Though I did use the subsciptions of penhaligon and surrounding areas... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: Brandy106@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:21:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] SF Books The Science fiction book club also sells fantasy books. I have never seen mystara books sold by them yet, but they maybe. I thought the original writer was doing us a little service. IMHO ------------------------------ From: Estlor Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 18:01:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wither the Old Ones? Joe Duncan wrote: > > Postage paid by: [Image] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > >One *last* last note: The Multiverese was a creation of theirs to see if > >new Old Ones could arise from mortals, and its worked twice, if I recall > >correctly. > > Wasn't the multiverse created by Draedens? Nope. Old Ones. Dreadens are from some other Plane that think they "own" the Multiverse. Actually, they just like to eat matter.... : ) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #188 ***************************** mystara-digest Monday, 12 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 189 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:52:53 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > Baron Halaran's daughter is Aleena, not Arelena. (smacking myself in the head- DOH!) That's right. Arelena is the one in that basic module, Castle Caldwell and Beyond (the kidnapping of Princess Arelena adventure.) Ah well... :) The idea still seems sound, though, of changing daughters, unless the info in the module hinges on having Baron Kelvin's involvement in things. ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon > > > Baron Halaran's daughter is Aleena, not Arelena. > > (smacking myself in the head- DOH!) > I thought she was his niece. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 17:28:18 +-200 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] AD&D or OD&D (was Re: Dragons) Hi everybody. I just want to say that there are no problems for me at all, since (as = you can see in my posts about barbarians) it is possible to write the = 90% of a GAZ-like description without referring specifically to OD&D or = AD&D. I would have no problem to write the other 10% twice (for OD&D and = AD&D). Do not let this stupid problem stops our work, let's continue working! Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it P.S. if we decide to split in groups for developing regions, I'd like to = continue with barbarians, OK? ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 17:29:10 +-200 Subject: [Mystara][O] More infos about barbarian humanoid magic-users Hi everybody! I'm back home for just one day and I want to send you = something I tought about while I was in Malta. on the 25th of July, Shelby Michlin asked: >Hey, this shaman is terrific! The tattoos, the sceptre, the shouting = and >dancing, this is great! Anyone have anything similar for the "clerics?" Well, here it is... (I've got some inspiration on the GAZ about Ethengar...) When an old = healer dies, his soul is believed to travel to a child's body, and place = a mark on it. So, when a horde loses his healer, humanoids begin to = search for a baby-humanoid who as the sign. This mark could be different = (a section of skin of a different colour, six fingers in a hand, one ear = missing, and so on...), but every 'dinasty', or every soul (as humanoids = believe), has its characteristic mark. The humanoid-child is educated by = the wisest and oldest member of the horde, and must pass many tests, = varying fron race to race. Note that the child have to demonstrate his = courage, resistance to pain, cold, hot, he must prove that he is totally = evil. After the final test, one of the wisest members give him a = necklace made of bone of a animal. The healer will have to protect this = animal race forever. The healer is now able to cast spells as a cleric, = but with some restrictions: healers aren't allowed to cast higher spell = during combact since they need exceptional concentration and a ritual = during spellcasting. When an healer want to use his magic, he has to = follow very complex rituals depending from the spell. Obviously, more a = spell is powerful, more complex is the ritual: for example, Cure Minor = Wounds could be used in combact since it requires a minor ritual like = 'touch your head with your left hands'; but more powerful spells could = require dancing, meditations, trance or even sacrifices. For every = ritual, there is always 20% (or more) possibility of an event like a = thunder, a falling star, wind or even the intervention of a party of = adventurers, which disturbs the ritual. If the ritual is disturbed there = are [80 - healer's wisdom]% possibility of miscasting. If the spell is = miscasted the magical power accumulated around the healer isn't = controlled and cause [(1d4+2)*healer's level] HP damage plus some = possible side-effects. To determine those side-effects, the DM can roll = on a Wild Magic table or imagine an effect appropriate to the caster. If = the ritual is disturbed but the spell isn't miscasted, the spell is lost = with no effect. BTW, the rules about rituals could be also used by shamans... Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin Date: Sat, 10 Aug 96 12:56:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Celestial Court - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Wednesday, 07-Aug-96 11:43 PM > > From: Shin Chyang Yu \ Internet: (scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia. edu) > To: Post to Mystara-L \ Internet: (mystara-l@io.com) > > Subject: [Mystara][O] Celestial Court > > So one way of getting around this that I thought of is using > the seelie court. For some reason the fairies in MChina is more interested in > the walfare of the mortals than their western counterparts Hi John, I knew there were "spirits" in chinese folklore, but are you choosing to adopt the terminology of celtic faery? Aren't there labels more suited to the orient? > I'm also thinking about several different ways that we can treat the Dragon > emperor. One is that the emperor is a true dragon is known to every one and no > one will question his authority. This will make the campaign in MChina more > static. I agree, more static. Not necessarily a good thing. > Another is that the emperor SHOULD be a dragon, but no one knows for > sure. This will add more court intrigue into the campaign as all of the > contenders for the position of emperor like to think they are the true dragon > and try to convince others of that too. The Dragon Throne is probably a > powerful artifact that kill any normal human sits on there. One needs to have > special blood or spirit inside to safely sit on it, but he not necessarily have > to be a dragon, as other animal incarnation could also sit on it. So by just > sitting on the Throne can't be used as a test. Now this idea is great! Stability, shmability, I love court intrigue! > Just a few ideas that popped into my head. Feel free to make any comments ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 17:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] More infos about barbarian humanoid magic-users > he must prove that he is totally = > evil. Is this a typo? Even if those barbarians act evil in the eyes of more "civilized" nations, I don't think they will consider themself as evil. Raiding, pillaging, etc are just their way of life. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 17:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon Don't have my gaming stuff with me, but didn't the current Baron Kelvin reached his position relatively recent, after the old Baron died? If so, the module could meant the daughter of the old Baron, sister of the current Baron. Of course, I could be totally wrong on this. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 17:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] Celestial Court > > > > So one way of getting around this that I thought of is using > > the seelie court. For some reason the fairies in MChina is more > interested in > > the walfare of the mortals than their western counterparts > Hi John, > I knew there were "spirits" in chinese folklore, but are you choosing to > adopt the terminology of celtic faery? Aren't there labels more suited to > the orient? I'm thinking of keeping them seperate. The seelie/celestrial court is filled by the powerful fairies, nearly immortal in power. While the spirits have considerably less power. Actually come to think of it, this might work out quite similar to Chinese mythology. A little background info first, the spirits are come to being when those nature animals or plants start on the "path." How they able to start was never clearly described, AFAIK, probably they just happen to live in a highly magical area for a long time. After 50 to 100 years or so, they can take on human form. If they stay on the right path, they can sooner or later (generally several hundreds or thousands of years) became a god. If they stray on to the wrong path, they will be condamed by the heaven and be destoryed. In game term, this could be that minor spirits, after gaining certain amount of power could be invited into the celestral court. Powerful magic user could also became a god. this could be using a spell similar to Lich, but instead of turned into an undead, the caster is turned into a powerful fairy and join the court. BTW, in Chinese folk belief, gods is not all powerful. They are below buddas in power. And while godhood can sometime be obtained by just eating some alchamy formulas, one can became a budda only through total devotion, selfless sacrifice, etc. Also, IIRC, a god is not out of the "great cycle," meaning that after a certain amount of time they have to start at the beginning and be a mortal again. And once became a god, one can never became a budda. So, I think in game term, Immortals = budda and Powerful fairy = god. Just my opinion. As I said before, the main reason I like this is there are just too many gods in Chinese folk stories to creat an immortal out of each one. Humm, looking back at my post, it might be a little confusing. Feel free to ask me any questions to clearify anything or tell me what you think of this. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Geoff Gander Date: Sat, 10 Aug 96 21:40:10 EDT Subject: [Mystara] Dragontrove Has anyone ordered any old products from the Dragon's Trove? If so, could you tell me how the service was, on average? Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: DragonMast@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:02:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragontrove In a message dated 96-08-10 22:41:19 EDT, you write: << Has anyone ordered any old products from the Dragon's Trove? If so, could you tell me how the service was, on average? >> I have order almost $100 worth of stuff from them... they are GREAT! Wayne ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 11:16:27 +-200 Subject: Re: [Mystara][O] More infos about barbarian humanoid magic-users Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >> he must prove that he is totally =3D >> evil.=20 > >Is this a typo? Even if those barbarians act evil in the eyes >of more "civilized" nations, I don't think they will consider >themself as evil. Raiding, pillaging, etc are just their way >of life. Well, you could be right... There is still confusion in my mind: I = decided to let this barbarians act evil and think of themself as evil = because they are humanoid and they will probably be the = "campaign-enemy". But, on the other hand, if we like best a more "human" = way of thinking, you are absolutely right. I propose a mediation: my paragraph was intended to be used if humanoid = barbarians are the "enemy". If someone wants to use barbarians as = neutral characters or even as good characters, just delete the words _he = must prove that he is totally evil_ and change the Immortal who is = worshipped. Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it I'm going on holiday, see you on August, the 28th!!!!! ------------------------------ From: Telrathin@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 10:02:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragontrove I've orded a lot of stuff from the Dragon's Trove in the past as well, and the service has been fantastic. I got all of my products within a week at really low prices. I've yet to find a better deal on the web. Andrew ------------------------------ From: Johnson Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 10:13:57 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] The Black Vessel Hi. I just thought I'd let people know that the novel *The Black Vessel* is available. (Well, it's available in my area, which means that it should be available most other places in North America. Elsewhere, I can't be sure.) I picked up a copy the other day, but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. It's set in the Savage Coast, but has been released as a Mystara novel, and not as a separate Savage Coast novel as was previously advertised. Finally, I have a question. At the back of *Dragonmage of Mystara* there is mention of another Mystara novel, *Son of Dawn*. Does anybody know when this is supposed to be released? Thanks in advance. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ From: strawberryJAMM Date: Sun, 11 Aug 96 08:54 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragontrove Mystaran's: Could somebody post the address for this Dragontrove? It sounds interesting. - -=< strawberryJAMM >=- - -- Jenni A. (Mott) Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs jam@wimsey.com <==> http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~jam/home.html <------------------------------------------------------------------> "Black Holes Are Merely Where God Divided By Zero" -- anonymous ------------------------------ From: Telrathin@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:54:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragontrove I think it's www.dragontrove.com. By E-Mail you can reach Mike (the owner) at StackMC@aol.com. Andrew McKinstry ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Mystara Web Pages... Mystarans, All right, I'll admit it... I am a yutz. A while back I asked that people send in the URL's for there Mystara related web pages. I took these, compiled them into one list. I then promptly deleted that file. So, I have to ask again... If you have a Mystara related web page, and you would like to have a link to it on the Mystara Mailing List home page, send me the URL at the address... owner-mystara-l@io.com ...or, feel free to post it to the list (for others to check out). Please, only send the URL if it is _your_ page. I do not wish to put up links to pages without permission. Sending me the URL will be considered permission. Thanks again. Sorry for the hassle. Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Cthulhu, eh? I'll try and backstab him" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Mailing List Member Page... Mystarans, Hopefully here soon I am going to sit my arse down and _make_ time to update the List home page (http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm), which is looking woefully unimpressive. I am hoping to add frames and images and such. One of the ideas I put forward that many seemed to like was the idea of a page with the names and addresses of list members, a registry of sorts. And I think I will go ahead with it, if I get enough responses. So, if you would like to have your name on the list members page, fill out the following "form" and send it to... owner-mystara-l@io.com Please do not send it to the list, or too van891@uidaho.edu. Also, please only send the form portion of this, if possible. Thanks. - ----------------------------Cut Here--------------------------- Name: E-Mail Address: City/State/Country: Age: Home Page: Years Playing RPG's: Years Involved with Mystara: Other D&D Settings Used: Other RPG's Played: General Comments: - ----------------------------Cut Here--------------------------- Note that this is not required. If you don't want to do this, feel free not to. Also, none of the above fields, excepting Name, is required. Don't want to share your Age? Address? Whatever? That's fine. The home page does not have to be a Mystara-specific page. Thanks to all who participate. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kodos ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:09:48 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Mailing List Member Page... Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > So, if you would like to have your name on the list members page, fill > out the following "form" and send it to... Nice > Age: > Years Playing RPG's: > Years Involved with Mystara: Will you be updating the list every year? Otherwise these ages and such will be outdated soon. Date of birth might have been better. Also how will one change his data, or take it away? Hmm. How about if the list-of-members would be deleted once every year (the birthday of the list maybe ), and eweryone should then mail new info. Collector should offcource do the thing every year, but it might still be a lot easier than updating every now and then... How are you going to do it Leroy? Anyway, I thank you for the good idea and contibution for it. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: stern@urshan.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:33:07 -0700 Subject: [Mystara] Your Howard Stern e-Mail has been received Hi mystara-l, This message has been sent automatically. Thank you for contacting "stern@urshan.com". Due to the massive amounts of e-Mail received daily, your message will probably go unanswered. We have created the Usenet newsgroup: alt.binaries.howard-stern If you do not get this newsgroup, ask your News Administrator to carry it. Howard's FAX # at WXRK (where he does his show) is: (212) 759-5329. We have over 200 megs of Stern Images and Sounds. They are almost all back online. Be sure to pick up a copy of the documentary video "In Howard We Trust" only available from our Web Site: http://www.urshan.com/stern And remember, if you do not get e-Mail from Howard..."It doesn't matter!" ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #189 ***************************** mystara-digest Saturday, 17 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 190 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Duncan Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 21:11:42 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] [O] Orient Material Hi, I've been doing the bookkeeping on the development of the MOrient, and I've got four people who've volunteered to help me with the creative aspect of it. I've got a tremendous amount of material to work with already, and over the next few weeks I'll be going through all the proposals and materials and organizing it all so we can go on to the next step. If everyone could do me a HUGE favour and refrain from posting any more ideas for the MOrient for awhile, then it would give me some time to get the material we've already gotten organized so that I can present it in an orderly fashion and we can take it from there. This is not to mean that I'm asking people to stop creating things, just don't post them for awhile, so I can catch up. Thanks for your help, this is going to be really great. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Arelena, Aleena, Arelina (was Penhaligon) On Friday, August 9, 1996, Cthulhudrew, the Great Old One pontificated: >> Baron Halaran's daughter is Aleena, not Arelena. > >(smacking myself in the head- DOH!) > >That's right. Arelena is the one in that basic module, Castle Caldwell >and Beyond (the kidnapping of Princess Arelena adventure.) Actually, the adventure in B9 is "The Abduction of Princess Sylvia." "The Kidnapping of Princess Arelina" (not Arelena) appeared in AC3. As I don't have AC3, I'm not sure if the B9 adventure is a reprint of the AC3 adventure. Does anyone have both? Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Arelena Kelvin (was Penhaligon) I see two possible solutions for the identity of Arelena Kelvin. Either she is the teenage daughter of Baron Kelvin, or she is his sister and in her early 20's. According to GAZ1, Desmond Kelvin II joined the Church of Karameikos at the age of 13. The Church of Karameikos could not have been founded and known as such prior to AC 970 when Stephen Karameikos moved in and took over. If the first Baron Kelvin moved to the Grand Duchy at the same time as Stephen, and the younger Kelvin was 13 at the time, he would have been 43 in the year AC 1000, when the adventure described in B12 takes place. (Lady Penhaligon is mentioned to be 29 in both B12 and GAZ1.) It *is* possible that Arelena could be the appropriate age to be his daughter. However, I would venture to guess that rather than immediately joining a fledgling church, Kelvin II spent several years growing up watching his father build his city and barony before entering the Church of Karameikos. This also gives the Church a chance to establish itself as a prominent religion within the Grand Duchy before he enters its ranks. Moving the time of his joining the Church back as much as 10 years, makes it more difficult to believe that Arelena is his daughter, though it's still not impossible. GAZ1 also mentions that Desmond Kelvin II is attempting to court Lady Adriana Karameikos in AC 1000. If he has a daughter at this time, it would mean that he is either divorced, a widower, or the father of an illegitimate child. If Arelena were illegitimate, she would probably not be recognized as his child. After all, how many good and respected clerics would admit to having an illegitimate child, while simultaneously courting the Duke's daughter? In B12, Kelvin clearly recognizes Arelena as his daughter. Somehow, divorce doesn't seem to fit in well with my picture of the situation either, though it could be my own personal bias and is certainly an option. As a widower, however, his dark, brooding personality can be explained, so that option would work rather well. In B12, Desmond gives Kaerin his approval to marry Arelena. Though this might not be necessary if Arelena is his sister, some noble families might require it. (You can not marry unless the head of the family approves of your mate!) On the other hand, Kelvin II *is* a very calculating, politically- motivated man who wishes to marry Adriana and become the Duke. By offering his official sanction of Kaerin's marriage to his sister, he establishes that Kaerin and Arelena are his heirs to the Barony should he die with no progeny or become Duke, thus leaving no dispute over title to his lands. This is a very important consideration for a feudal lord, especially one wishing to climb the social ladder. Also it can be seen as a magnanimous gesture that Desmond hopes the Duke will duplicate with he and Adriana. Of course, what nobleman wouldn't want to create a alliance between his family and another noble family -- especially one whose land is close to his own? Can you say annex? ("Hmm, Count Kelvin sound's quite nice," mused Desmond, "though Duke Kelvin would be even better.") Personally, I like the widower angle. In my campaign, Desmond Kelvin II joined the Church of Karameikos in AC 978 and was admitted to the Order of the Griffon a year later. He married Lady Maria Thallius, a fellow member of the Order, in AC 984. A year after that, Arelena was born. Unfortunately, Desmond's wife died in childbirth. Desmond was forced to retire from active adventuring to raise his daughter. This sad event somewhat twisted his outlook on life; though good at heart, and always wanting the best for his daughter, be sank into a depression and became the dark, brooding man we have all come to know and love. At the time of the adventure in B12, Arelena is 15 years old while Kaerin Penhaligon is 25. Any thoughts? Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] The Penhaligon Trilogy Thoughts on the Penhaligon Trilogy seem to run from "I hated it" to "The story was OK, but not relevant to Mystara." True, much of what was in the trilogy doesn't match cannon, however, I did manage to incorporate some of the information into my campaign. Here is what I did. Keep in mind that it's been three years since I read the trilogy, so my memory might be a bit rusty. SPOILERS ARE INCLUDED!!! Bywater - ------- First of all, I replaced Guido's Fort with Bywater. Where/what is Guido's Fort? It is the small village that appears in B5 "Horror on the Hill." When that module was reprinted in B1-9, it was placed several days east of Kelvin along the Volaga river. I made it a few hexes upriver from where the Castellan flows into the Volaga. In my campaign, the party declined the adventure near Guido's Fort, so the village was destroyed by hobgoblins (AC 1000). Then a group of dwarven adventurers came along and defeated the hobgoblins. About a year later, the village of Bywater was built upon the remains of the village. Why was that particular area resettled? I decided that it is prime farm and grazing land, and that there are rumors of a lost gold mine in the area. (See B10 for details of the mine.) Of course, no one has found it yet, and the locals are tight-lipped about it when strangers come around. Lady/Baroness Penhaligon - ------------------------ The trilogy calls Lady Penhaligon a Baroness. It also refers to her father as the former Baron. GAZ1 says that she was confirmed in her father's title when he died in AC 996, so he could not have been a Baron. In my campaign, Arteris' father was only a Landed Lord, and she was "promoted" to the noble rank of Baroness in the spring of AC 1000. The Order of the Three Suns - --------------------------- I use the Order of the Three Suns as a knightly order in Penhaligon. However, instead of knights and squires, I call the members squires and pages so as to avoid confusion between members of the Order and persons knighted by Duke Karameikos. Sir Fain Flinn was not only a Squire in the Order of the Three Suns, but also a Knight of Karameikos, known throughout the land for his brave deeds. Unfortunately, the Order presents a small problem with adventure B12. Why wouldn't the squires and pages move to assault Ilyana's keep? Well, in my campaign they did. They met my PC's in the mountain pass as the party was returning victoriously after defeating Ilyana and company. It took the Order a few days to mobilize, and that brief window was all that the PC's needed to complete the task themselves. For their quick thinking and actions, the heros were rewarded with honorary membership in the Order. Honorary membership gives them access to the Baroness, and free room and board in the town of Penhaligon for brief periods of time (no longer than a few days). It also provides mages to cast the "identify" spell on magic items. The cost of the spell is only the cost of the material components, but any "extra" magic items the PC's may run across in their travels must be surrendered to the Order. Honorary membership in the Order of the Three Suns also provides noble status equivalent to a Court Lord, though it only applies within the Barony of Penhaligon. Amstead - ------- IIRC, the Penhaligon Trilogy implies that Armstead is in Karameikos, and that it is inhabited by a large number of retired mages. This doesn't quite match with the Darokin gazetteer. According to that supplement, "the 600 residents of this village are almost entirely descended from Karameikan immigrants. Another 1,000 or so people live in the surrounding countryside within 20 miles of Armstead, mostly raising sheep and cattle, along with some garden-level farming to keep the locals supplied with fresh vegetables." Armstead is known for its blankets, cloaks, and leather goods. I decided that the 600 residents were mostly Traladarans who fled their country when Stephen Karameikos took over. The people that live in the surrounding countryside include an unusually high number of retired mages (5%), though there are many other people as well. Magic Drain - ----------- In my campaign, magic was only drained from Armstead and Penhaligon. Had the villain's plan succeeded, it would have spread throughout all the Known World, and eventually all of Mystara. The Destruction of Penhaligon - ------------------------------ My PC's were traveling abroad when the events of the Trilogy took place, so I wasn't too worried about the hows and whys of what happened. As far as they were concerned, not long after the magic stopped working, an army of creatures that can only be described as beastmen swarmed out of the mountains and destroyed the town (AC 1002). Most of the townspeople and members of the Order of the Three Suns were killed, though the Baroness survived. These creatures continued south, and were finally stopped near the city of Kelvin by three regiments of the Duke's army supplemented by forces from the Barony of Kelvin. Today (AC 1004) Penhaligon is rebuilding under the direction of the Baroness. She has spent nearly her entire treasury, and the Duke has also provided aid in the form of food and laborers. Dwarven craftsmen from High Forge are working on her castle. The town should be completely rebuilt some time next year. A side effect of the destruction of Penhaligon is that the Cult of Halav was able say that Halav, a.k.a. Duke Stephen Karameikos, had once again saved his people from a beastman invasion. Over the course of the next two From ???@??? Tue Aug 20 12:17:58 1996 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA10128; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:06:11 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA15507 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:26:10 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:26:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199608171126.GAA15507@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #190 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1e8a0d69612b3425a942f323886b14cf years, the activities of the Cult increased dramatically, and membership doubled. The Church of Traladara has been forced to allow dual membership among the faithful in order to avoid a huge loss of followers. Dual membership in both the Church of Traladara and the Cult of Halav is not tolerated among the clergy, though a few Cult members have secretly infiltrated the ranks of the Church. The Church of Karameikos has tried to fan the flames of conflict between the two, but the Patriarch realizes that the Cult of Halav could potentially pose a greater threat than the Church of Traladara. That's all I can think of for now. Any thoughts and comments are welcome. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "Alexander T. Knapp" Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:53:51 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Net.Book.of.the.Underdark Greetings all, I've been collecting the various and sundry Net.Books available at various sites and was wondering if there's ever been anything compiled on the Underdark (or equivalent sub-terranean venues?) Thinking out loud: - - Unique caverns/tunnel systems: Funghi forests, underground lakes, city information, 'endless' mines... - - Underdark political relations: The Dwarven Battle of Seven Years, "Comparitive Dictatorships 101" or "The Illithid Elections"... - - Entrances to the Underdark: Rivers with whirlpools to underground lakes, Drow Mirrors which act as one or two way teleportation, natural caves... - - Magic of the Deep Places: Old Earth-magic, Kobold Enchantments of Mayhem and Destruction, Dwarven MageSmiths... - - Monsters and Races: "The Secret History of the Umber Hulk", Greater and Lesser Rockcrushers, Stone Ants... - - Magic Items, Dungeon Complexes, Underground Fortresses, Adventure ideas and hooks and so on. So... 1) Has anyone else been working on this? 2) Is there interest in the project out there on the AD&D and Net.Books lists? 3) What other *categories* of contributions (aside from those listed above) should be included? If we think that it would be a good idea, I would welcome feedback on the above and will put out a formal 'call for submissions.' I am willing to edit the text. Bright the Day, Alex. - - Alexander T. Knapp aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina PGP Public Key Available ------------------------------ From: "Alexander T. Knapp" Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:42:55 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] My Recent Post - Net.Book.of.the.Underdark I've received several E-mails asking me why I posted the message about creating a Net.Book.of.the.Underdark to the Mystara-List. To answer that very fair question and perhaps clarify to others my intentions with the Net.Book, I'd like to answer indirectly through the list. First, in my campaign experience (which has always taken place in Mystara), one of my favorite, and most popular adventuring venues has been the "Underdark" (which I use as a general term to include everything from classical 'dungeon' adventures, to the Dwarves of Rockhome, to the miles of unexplored caverns and tunnels below the earth - not solely the TSR labelled commercial products.) I consider the Underdark to be Mystaran as well. Second, too little has been published (IMHO) about the Underdark, that which has is either outdated, hidden in commercial adventure modules, or focuses on only one small section of that vast region. Since many TSR (and other) resources can be used in both D&D and AD&D, I would like to create a Net.Book that has the input of the various lists from both games. Mystaran-based resources should be represented in Net publications as well as AD&D-based. Finally, as with any creative work of this type, the more different, diverse submissions and experiences that we can draw upon, the better the final Book will be. Too often I feel (as a Mystaran DM) that our world is overlooked for the more recent arrivals (especially now that TSR has discontinued it.) This is a way that I/we can keep materials available to other DM's and players who feel similarly. If this post was, in fact, inappropriate for the list, please let me know and I will exclude Mystara-L from other related messages. Otherwise, I will send a 'Request for Submissions' with more information in a few days. I hope that this clears up some of the confusion. Please don't hesitate to mail me with any other questions. Cheers, Alex. - - Alexander T. Knapp aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina PGP Public Key Available ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:38:38, -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Lichdom Does anyone know the actual process in which someone becomes a lich? Is there any documents? All I know is that there is a good chance you can die in the process. - -Tim mrru13a@prodigy.com ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom > > Does anyone know the actual process in which someone becomes a lich? > Is there any documents? All I know is that there is a good chance you > can die in the process. > You can check out Van Richten's Guide to the Lich. Although it's written for Ravenloft, the information there can be easily transported out. Simon :) ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:33:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom >Does anyone know the actual process in which someone becomes a lich? >Is there any documents? All I know is that there is a good chance you >can die in the process. Look in Van Richten's Guide to the Lich. Imo it's one of the best supplements for D&D/AD&D. (But that could just be because it gave me a lot of ideas for a Lich villian in my campaign. :-) ) As I recall it involves poisons from a variety of sources, Wyverns, Ba'atezu/Fiends, Imps, Purple Worms, etc. There aren't many details in the book that are Ravenloft-specific, so it's pretty easy to port the ones described to any game world/system. The book goes into what spells you need to properly enchant a phylactery(sic?), what materials can be used, etc. It also gives great details on the mindset of liches and how it progresses over time. It also describes Vasaliches, which are mages of less then 18th level (and I think greater then 12) who are given a lesser version of Lichdom by a full Lich. ("Apprentice liches" if you will.) These vasaliches are kept under control by the full lich (usually because the full one holds their phylactery.) I believe if they manage to gain back control of their phylacteries and can reach 18th level they can try to "evlove" into a full lich. Vasaliches also have a high chance of dying in either process. (Becoming a vasalich or a lich.) Lastly, there's an entry in the Enyclopedia Magica for "Arcane Formula for Lichdom". But I've never looked at it. Hope this helps, - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Net.Book.of.the.Underdark On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Alexander T. Knapp wrote: [explanation for why the announcement was posted to mystara-l] > If this post was, in fact, inappropriate for the list, please let me know > and I will exclude Mystara-L from other related messages. Otherwise, I > will send a 'Request for Submissions' with more information in a few days. Nothing to worry about. The post was perfectly appropriate, as are posts on requests and occasional updates on the project. As long as it has some connection to Mystara, it's fine. Now, trying to run the entire project on the MML, that would be inappropriate (unless it was designed specifically for Mystara). Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > Does anyone know the actual process in which someone becomes a lich? > Is there any documents? All I know is that there is a good chance you > can die in the process. A few have pointed out the Van Richten's guide and the formula in the Encyclopedia Magica, but there is a third method outlined in GAZ2, Principalities of Glantri: The Secret Craft of Necromancy. The Fifth circle power is to attain lichdom. The rules say there can only be one such lich at any one time, but I think this is easily ignored. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Estlor Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 23:59:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom > Does anyone know the actual process in which someone becomes a lich? > Is there any documents? All I know is that there is a good chance you > can die in the process. > > -Tim > mrru13a@prodigy.com I saw a spell in a book somewhere called Attain Lichdom.... Estlor ------------------------------ From: Jared Nielsen Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:56:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom Recommended reading on this is in the Grimoire of Glantri. Under the secret craft of necromancy (p112) it lists the steps. Basically it involves a pint of venom from a nightcrawler's tail stinger, the skull of an imp or mephit and knocking out the High Master of Necromancy. A success roll of 00 turns the person into a screaming fiend that trashes everything and gates to the lower planes. Not fun. TIMOTHY M DI BONA wrote: > > Does anyone know the actual process in which someone becomes a lich? > Is there any documents? All I know is that there is a good chance you > can die in the process. > > -Tim > mrru13a@prodigy.com ------------------------------ From: "Alexander T. Knapp" Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:51:44 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom > Recommended reading on this is in the Grimoire of Glantri. Under the secret Is the "Grimoire of Glantri" a separate resource from the Gazeteer books? If so, when did it come out? Thanks, Alex. - - Alexander T. Knapp aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina PGP Public Key Available ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 03:48:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Alexander T. Knapp wrote: > > Recommended reading on this is in the Grimoire of Glantri. Under the secret > > Is the "Grimoire of Glantri" a separate resource from the Gazeteer books? > If so, when did it come out? I believe that the Grimoire thus referred to is from the book in the Glantri boxed set, in the section on the secret crafts of the school of magic. This information is identical to that given in the Gazetteer, so as long as you have that, you're okay. I believe that there may be two ways to attain lichdom through the use of the radiance- one, by attaining the fifth circle of Necromancy and failing in the use of that particular spell, and two, by having your body completely corrupted by the Radiance. Of course, I may be wrong (I'm reciting from memory, but it's been awhile since I've read GAZ3), and there may actually be an Attain Lichdom spell as the fifth circle spell... At any rate, the information is there. :) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #190 ***************************** mystara-digest Tuesday, 20 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 191 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alexander T. Knapp" Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:49:32 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Net.Book.of.the.Underdark - Call for Submissions (Long) Call - -= Executive Summary =- I would welcome any and all submissions from the Internet D&D/AND&D community for a Net.Book.of.the.Underdark (which I am willing to edit.) Initially, I am posting to this to the AD&D, Netbooks, Forgotten Realms, and Mystara lists, but hope that others will pass this information on to appropriate sites. This document details a skeleton outline of the Net.Book as well as guidelines for submissions. Submissions, questions and suggestions can be addressed to (please see the mailing guidelines below): aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl Thanks and regards, Alex. - -= Introduction =- While the traditional 'dungeon' adventure has long been the basis for many of our adventures, it seems that little has been published on the sunless world below. That which has is either outdated with the advent of the second edition rules, hidden in commercial adventure modules, or focuses on only one small section of the Underdark. The wealth of information on elves, dwarves and other surface- dwelling creatures, campaigns, realms and resources highlights the great potential for a collection of similar works focusing on the wars and riches of the deep caverns. On a more personal note, a major part of my campaign takes place and will take place in the Underdark, for which I'm in need of material and fresh ideas! This seemed to be the best idea to solve both problems. - -= Chapters of the Net.Book =- Sites - Funghi forests, underground lakes, seas and rivers, city information, points of interest... Politics - The Dwarven Battle of Seven Years, Inter-race relations, "Comparitive Dictatorships 101" or "The Illithid Elections", Regional Heiarchies/Food Chains... Entrances and Exits - Rivers with whirlpools to underground lakes, Drow Mirrors which act as one or two way teleportation, natural caves, temples of Underdark dieties... Weapons, Armor and Equipment - 'Close-quarter' weapons, Crystal Armor, Shields and weapons of various alloys, survival gear for underground exploration... Magic - Old Earth-magic, Kobold Enchantments of Mayhem and Destruction, Dwarven MageSmiths, Living Jewels, Elemental Magic... Monsters and Races - "The Ecology of...", "The Secret History of the Umber Hulk", Greater and Lesser Rockcrushers, Stone Ants, The Svirfneblin Community... Dungeons - Abandoned monster lairs, Tunnels left by Purple Worms, Hideouts of 'Underground' Rebels, Ancient Temples of Evil Gods, Lost Cities 'swallowed' by Earthquakes... Adventure Ideas - Hooks, NPC's, Campaigns and Unfinished Histories, Short (MAXIMUM 2 Pages) Stories, Curses, Rumors... Miscellaneous - Maps, Dieties, Commercial Resources and Reviews, Flora and Fauna, Relevant Internet Sites... Suggestions for additional chapters are welcome. - -= Submission Guidelines =- 1) Submissions to the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark must be original works, or based on public domain information/materials. No copyrighted material will be 'published'. In the event of a conflict, the editor shall err on the side of the challenger to a copyright issue. Do NOT foward materials from other Net.Books or resources for inclusion in the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark. 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Copyright of the spell shall, in any case, be retained by the author. <Title of Spell> <Sphere and/or School> <Level of Spell> Range: Components: Duration: Casting Time: Area of Effect: Saving Throw: Author: <Text of Spell Description> 4) Spells not submitted in this format will be returned to the author for proper editing. **MONSTERS 1) Monsters submitted to the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark should be formatted in the same way as Net.Monstrous.Compendium (see below). 2) All original monsters submitted to the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark will be forwarded to the current Keeper of the Net.Monstrous.Compendium. 3) NOTE!!! Submission of a monster to the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark imlpies agreement to the above paragraphs. 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Knapp aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina Public PGP Key Available ------------------------------ From: Shelby Michlin <shelby7@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 96 10:29:21 -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Re: [1735] Battlesystem & Spelljammer - -- [ From: Shelby Michlin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Thanks Paul, but my next question is, was this written based on the newer Battlesystem rules (which I don't have), or the old boxed set (which I do have)? And, to anyone who has both, is there enough difference between the two that I won't be able to use Paul's suggestions as-is? I'm compelled to take this opportunity to gripe about the gaming world's practice of revamping everything in a series of editions that make your old purchases obsolete, instead of merely correcting errors in older printings, and adding supplemental material. <grrr> Shelby ------------------------------ From: pignatelli@astrpd.pd.astro.it (Ezio Pignatelli) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:32:52 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Penhaligon First, may thanx for all your answer. Some little considerations: 1) Alerena - I really like the widower option. I just want to point out that, according to B12, Alerena is the _daughter_ of Lord Desmond Kevin II, not I. So, any other option forces you to change some of the script (which of course you can like to). 2) The sword - What the heck is a Huptzeen????? 3) Trilogy: Since Flinn was a knight when Baron Penhaligon died, and since this happened (B11) in 996, and -yet- since Flinn was banished for seven years, the book should start not before 1003. On the other hand, since Arteris' cousin is going to be 40 years old inm the book, and since Arteris is younger, the events are taking place _before_ 1009 AC. I disagree with the Lady/BAroness intepretation. I can't remember if I am talking about B12 or GAZ1, but I remember that Lady Penhaligon is taking the place of the old father since 4 years, but was not yet confirmed in the title. This also because of her level (too low). Since in the beginning of WoI she's still Lady, I guess she reach level 12 (and the Barony) in 1004-1005 AC. 4) The Order of the Three Suns. - Really nice. I'll take it :-) Ezio ------------------------------ From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:43:29 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon At 11:32 19-08-96 +0200, you wrote: >First, may thanx for all your answer. Some little considerations: > >1) Alerena - I really like the widower option. I just want to point out > that, according to B12, Alerena is the _daughter_ of Lord Desmond > Kevin II, not I. So, any other option forces you to change some of the > script (which of course you can like to). > >2) The sword - What the heck is a Huptzeen????? It's a creature. (Get the Monsterous Compendium Mystara thing) >3) Trilogy: Since Flinn was a knight when Baron Penhaligon died, and since > this happened (B11) in 996, and -yet- since Flinn was banished for seven > years, the book should start not before 1003. On the other hand, since > Arteris' cousin is going to be 40 years old inm the book, and since Arteris > is younger, the events are taking place _before_ 1009 AC. > I disagree with the Lady/BAroness intepretation. I can't remember if I am > talking about B12 or GAZ1, but I remember that Lady Penhaligon is taking the > place of the old father since 4 years, but was not yet confirmed > in the title. This also because of her level (too low). > Since in the beginning of WoI she's still Lady, I guess she reach > level 12 (and the Barony) in 1004-1005 AC. > >4) The Order of the Three Suns. - Really nice. I'll take it :-) What's this? > Ezio > > > Deathwatch ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:47:36 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Ezio Pignatelli wrote: > First, may thanx for all your answer. Some little considerations: > > 2) The sword - What the heck is a Huptzeen????? You must not own the original Creature Catalog (AC9), and since this little creature was dropped from the revised Creature Catalog, you're not likely to find it anywhere. :( Basically, a Huptzeen is a magical construct, usually in the form of an item of some sort- a ring, jewelry, something fairly small and unobtrusive (though a sword wouldn't be out of the question- this is a construct designed for a specific purpose, after all). The Huptzeen is semi (at least) intelligent, and is created with a purpose to which it will devote all of its powers. Basically, if I recall correctly, it operates as a fifth level magic user or something. If you'd like, I can mail you it's statistics. The main reason I brought it up as an option is because I recall that Alebane, king of the Ogres, was in possession of a Huptzeen (in ring form) that was created by Prince Jaggar with the purpose of forcing him From ???@??? Wed Aug 21 08:58:16 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA18326; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:53:03 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA08384 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:41:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:41:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199608201241.HAA08384@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #191 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 686a4bbbaa26ba90355dcf9768c7fd64 to follow Thar's orders (maybe it was supposed to set him against Thar... can't recall exactly). Of course, Alebane's Huptzeen also had the problem of being an MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder for those of you who've never had a Psychology course)- this particular MPD was a megalomaniacal one, and caused the ring to use its powers to make Alebane into it's instrument to conquer the Known World. Basically, it used spells like Charm Person, Charm Monster, etc. to this end. I always liked the little touches (like this) that Bruce Heard gave the 'noids in GAZ10. Too bad so many other products ignored them, though I suppose space limitations et al... Topic for another thread, if anyone cares to take me up on it, though: If Prince Gorevitch-Woszlany was the Nosferatu that is responsible for Thar's condition, shouldn't Thar be under the Prince's control? Brings up some very interesting questions regarding the ramifications of Thar's control of the Broken Lands, not to mention... enough. As I said, I'd be more than happy to share my thoughts if anyone's interested. :) ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 12:54:38 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhaligon >>2) The sword - What the heck is a Huptzeen????? > >It's a creature. (Get the Monsterous Compendium Mystara thing) Or the original Creature Catalog for OD&D (it's not in the DMR2 Challenger series reprint). Unfortunately, I don't have my old CC anymore, so I can't tell you too much except that Huptzeens are creatures that take the form of inanimate objects (don't recall whether they morph or whether each has one form for its entire life). /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson <zagyg@IO.COM> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:28:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Mystara] Humanoids and Conspiracies On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > The main reason I brought it up as an option is because I recall that > Alebane, king of the Ogres, was in possession of a Huptzeen (in ring > form) that was created by Prince Jaggar with the purpose of forcing him > to follow Thar's orders (maybe it was supposed to set him against Thar... > can't recall exactly). Of course, Alebane's Huptzeen also had the problem > of being an MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder for those of you who've > never had a Psychology course)- this particular MPD was a megalomaniacal > one, and caused the ring to use its powers to make Alebane into it's > instrument to conquer the Known World. Basically, it used spells like > Charm Person, Charm Monster, etc. to this end. > > I always liked the little touches (like this) that Bruce Heard gave the > 'noids in GAZ10. Too bad so many other products ignored them, though I > suppose space limitations et al... True - the little things like Alebane's huptzeen and gladiator heritage, Mogul-Khan's devil swine lycanthropy, tidbits like the Kol-Dahk river being intoxicating or gnolls considering multiple personalities a supreme blessing from Ranivornus - those were some of the things that got me hooked on Mystara in the first place. It's a pity they were overlooked later - but then, if, as people have sort of been doing, we continue the Almanac series on this list, there's no reason we have to continue to ignore them. I've actually noticed the humanoids have mostly been treated pretty poorly in both the real Almanacs and in the suggested extensions - slaughtered by Heldannic Knights, watching the nation-tribes they'd set up crumble and dissolve as they were called on to march into a new land in the crater, invaded by dwarves and elves, driven out of Oenkmar, manipulated by everyone from Synn to a lich named Phoebus, and even, with the rising of the City of Aengmor in the supplement, threatened with being slowly driven from their promised land, the Broken Lands. Admittedly, Kol's managed to give them a slight amount of legitimacy with his principality in Glantri, but even that was just part of Synn's tricks. I actually have an idea for a plotline for the net.Almanacs - that a humanoid adventurer who's travelled far and wide in the human lands returns to the Broken Lands, sees the sad state of the tribes there, and proposes to lead the humanoids back to glory - not through war and conquest as the old chiefs had, for in the end, as even the legends told by the shamans and wokani relate, the humans and demi-humans have always, in the end, driven them back, usually at a cost of many, many humanoid lives. Instead, she will help the humanoids forge a civilization for themselves - and not as cowering sycophants to the humans and elves, as Kol has done in Glantri, but as a strong, wise civilization on humanoid terms, powerful enough that the humans, elves and dwarves cannot crush them, but more importantly, honorable and respectable enough that they will not *want* to - they will be forced to accept the humanoids as every bit their equals, at the very least, and will never again be able to look down on an orc or a goblin as savage, sub-intelligent monsters ever again. Whether she succeeds in realizing this dream - well, only time will tell. But it seems tantalizingly possible... > If Prince Gorevitch-Woszlany was the Nosferatu that is responsible for > Thar's condition, shouldn't Thar be under the Prince's control? Brings up > some very interesting questions regarding the ramifications of Thar's > control of the Broken Lands, not to mention... enough. As I said, I'd be > more than happy to share my thoughts if anyone's interested. :) Hmm... Interesting. *Very* interesting. I haven't looked through the Karameikos or Glantri gazeteers in too long - I'd forgotten about nosferatus being subject to leige-pawn relationships. Perhaps the Prince simply didn't see the value of an orcish thrall and sent him out to wreak havoc in the Broken Lands, then forgot about him - or perhaps we've got a great opportunity to come up with a weird, subtle conspiracy theory. _Illuminati: the Mystara Edition,_ anyone? (Actually, it could be quite fascinating to theorize about subtle conspiracies shaping Mystara's history, perhaps even so subtly the Immortals aren't aware of them, or perhaps with their intrigues extending into the Immortal realms themselves...) - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:45:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Humanoids and Conspiracies On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Scott Johnson wrote: > True - the little things like Alebane's huptzeen and gladiator heritage, > Mogul-Khan's devil swine lycanthropy, tidbits like the Kol-Dahk river > being intoxicating or gnolls considering multiple personalities a supreme > blessing from Ranivornus - those were some of the things that got me > hooked on Mystara in the first place. It's a pity they were overlooked > later - but then, if, as people have sort of been doing, we continue the > Almanac series on this list, there's no reason we have to continue to > ignore them. I've actually noticed the humanoids have mostly been treated > pretty poorly in both the real Almanacs and in the suggested extensions - > slaughtered by Heldannic Knights, watching the nation-tribes they'd set up > crumble and dissolve as they were called on to march into a new land in > the crater, invaded by dwarves and elves, driven out of Oenkmar, > manipulated by everyone from Synn to a lich named Phoebus, and > even, with the rising of the City of Aengmor in the supplement, threatened > with being slowly driven from their promised land, the Broken Lands. > Admittedly, Kol's managed to give them a slight amount of legitimacy with > his principality in Glantri, but even that was just part of Synn's tricks. I am currently (among other tasks) working on a more complete history for the Broken Lands- current history, at any rate- from the births of the important 'noids through the major events taking place during those times to the current year. Included are Thar's conquest, etc., etc. I hope to give the 'noids a bit more to do during Wrath, particularly, esp. those 'noids that have seemingly been forgotten. Any ideas in this regards will be more than welcome. > I actually have an idea for a plotline for the net.Almanacs - that a > humanoid adventurer who's travelled far and wide in the human lands > returns to the Broken Lands, sees the sad state of the tribes there, and > proposes to lead the humanoids back to glory - not through war and > conquest as the old chiefs had, for in the end, as even the legends told > by the shamans and wokani relate, the humans and demi-humans have always, > in the end, driven them back, usually at a cost of many, many humanoid > lives. Instead, she will help the humanoids forge a civilization for > themselves - and not as cowering sycophants to the humans and elves, as > Kol has done in Glantri, but as a strong, wise civilization on humanoid > terms, powerful enough that the humans, elves and dwarves cannot crush > them, but more importantly, honorable and respectable enough that they > will not *want* to - they will be forced to accept the humanoids as every > bit their equals, at the very least, and will never again be able to look > down on an orc or a goblin as savage, sub-intelligent monsters ever again. > Whether she succeeds in realizing this dream - well, only time will tell. > But it seems tantalizingly possible... I actually already have something similar in place in my Mystara. An Ogre-Mage (W12- from the Cyclopedia rules), who was captured, raised as an experiment in Glantri, but fled when it's owner decided the experiment was over and tried to off him. He was booted out of Ogremoor for his teachings, and so fled to the Great Northern Plateau, where he is slowly building the tribes there into a civilization. > > If Prince Gorevitch-Woszlany was the Nosferatu that is responsible for > > Thar's condition, shouldn't Thar be under the Prince's control? Brings up > > some very interesting questions regarding the ramifications of Thar's > > control of the Broken Lands, not to mention... enough. As I said, I'd be > > more than happy to share my thoughts if anyone's interested. :) > > Hmm... Interesting. *Very* interesting. I haven't looked through the > Karameikos or Glantri gazeteers in too long - I'd forgotten about > nosferatus being subject to leige-pawn relationships. Perhaps the Prince > simply didn't see the value of an orcish thrall and sent him out to wreak > havoc in the Broken Lands, then forgot about him - or perhaps we've got a > great opportunity to come up with a weird, subtle conspiracy theory. > _Illuminati: the Mystara Edition,_ anyone? (Actually, it could be quite > fascinating to theorize about subtle conspiracies shaping Mystara's > history, perhaps even so subtly the Immortals aren't aware of them, or > perhaps with their intrigues extending into the Immortal realms > themselves...) Makes you think, doesn't it? ;) ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu <scy2g@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Creature Catalog Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: > > You must not own the original Creature Catalog (AC9), and since this > little creature was dropped from the revised Creature Catalog, you're not > likely to find it anywhere. :( Does anyone have a list of all the creatures they added and taken away between the first and second creature catalog? I brought the second one to replace the first one that a friend of mine lost for me, so I didn't really got a chance to compare the two version. I now knows that Ordz and Huptzeen are taken out, is there any others? It is weird that they took out these two creatures, as they are the more interesting creatures in the book. Of course, when I first read about Huptzeen about ten years ago (wow, has it been that long?), it really send my munchkin mind racing for the possibilities :) - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 00:56:54 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Creature Catalog On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: I like that. I don't think I've ever in my life pontificated before this. :) > Does anyone have a list of all the creatures they added and taken > away between the first and second creature catalog? [Rest of message clipped for brevity's sake- something I notice I didn't do on an earlier post... :( ] Let's see- off the top of my head: Oards Huptzeen Stalwart (tall, athletic humanlike creatures) Phygorax (undead fish with big spiny projections on its back- OUCH!) Sacrol (sort of like a demi-lich from AD&D- I think...) Reflecter (Golden human like creatures; apparently time travelers. They shoot lightning, and don't talk much). Agarat (or maybe it was the other ghoul type creature; can't think of its name offhand. It's sort of a king ghoul that emits a fear thingy from its head) That's all I can think of offhand. I'll check when I get home, 'cause I think I missed one or two. ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:45:30 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Swordmaking In real world medieval Europe certain towns were renowned for their swords (e.g. the blades from Toledo, Spain), it could be interesting to have something similar in the KW. Suitable areas for fine swordmaking would be: * Fortress Island (Minrothad) * Thyatis City (or somewhere in mainland Thyatis) * Rockhome * Darokin for rapiers Any other ideas ? We could write a "Guide to Swordmaking in KW", or something similar. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #191 ***************************** mystara-digest Thursday, 22 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 192 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:32:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Creature Catalog At 00.56 20/08/96 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >> Does anyone have a list of all the creatures they added and taken >> away between the first and second creature catalog? >Let's see- off the top of my head: > >Oards >Huptzeen >Stalwart (tall, athletic humanlike creatures) >Phygorax (undead fish with big spiny projections on its back- OUCH!) >Sacrol (sort of like a demi-lich from AD&D- I think...) >Reflecter (Golden human like creatures; apparently time travelers. They >shoot lightning, and don't talk much). >Agarat (or maybe it was the other ghoul type creature; can't think of its >name offhand. It's sort of a king ghoul that emits a fear thingy from its >head) > >That's all I can think of offhand. I'll check when I get home, 'cause I >think I missed one or two. I've only DMR2, anyway I can see that you missed only 3: Leveller Possession Vapor Ghoul Unfortunately I know only their names, not what they look like. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 09:20:17 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Creature Catalog At 02:32 PM 8/20/96 +0200, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >At 00.56 20/08/96 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > >>> Does anyone have a list of all the creatures they added and taken >>> away between the first and second creature catalog? > >>Let's see- off the top of my head: >> >>Oards >>Huptzeen >>Stalwart (tall, athletic humanlike creatures) >>Phygorax (undead fish with big spiny projections on its back- OUCH!) >>Sacrol (sort of like a demi-lich from AD&D- I think...) >>Reflecter (Golden human like creatures; apparently time travelers. They >>shoot lightning, and don't talk much). >>Agarat (or maybe it was the other ghoul type creature; can't think of its >>name offhand. It's sort of a king ghoul that emits a fear thingy from its >>head) >> >>That's all I can think of offhand. I'll check when I get home, 'cause I >>think I missed one or two. > >I've only DMR2, anyway I can see that you missed only 3: >Leveller >Possession >Vapor Ghoul > >Unfortunately I know only their names, not what they look like. I seem to recall something called a "Death Leech," first seen in CM2 Death's Ride. A sort of undead giant amoeba with funky special attacks. There was a cool picture of some ogreish looking character being enveloped by a pseudopod in the Creature Catalog, I think. /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://www.oberlin.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: "Alexander T. Knapp" <aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:14:09 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Facets of the Underdark Thanks to all who've responded to my Call for Submssions for the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark. Some of you have expressed a willingness to write but weren't sure what material should go into the Net.Book. Others have said that they were interested, but only had material on the surface world. So, I wanted to start a thread on potential topics to add 'wood to the fire' and people can pick and choose something that interests them. Building on my earlier thoughts and hoping to inspire other suggestions of what would be appropriate material for the Book. (I've marked those ideas with ties to the surface with an asterisk.) Sites - Funghi forests: Where are they located, what kinds of 'trees', what/who lives there, why, what can be found in their 'darker' depths? Underground lakes, seas and rivers: Where does the water come from, is it navigable, like on the surface is there any civilization on the banks, how do you get across and what lives in it? City information: More than dwarves and drow live in the Underdark, where are other cities, who is there and how long have they been there, do they welcome contact with surface dwellers, what are they protecting? Points of interest: Veins of mithril and adamandite, shadowstone and magnetic ores, areas of 'twisted' natural laws (i.e. Shadowelven City of the Stars), trade routes and their denizens and dangers? Politics - The Dwarven Battle of Seven Years: What was it, with whom and over what, Who won and why did it only last seven years? *Inter-race relations: How do various races relate, who would ally together against a common threat, who would be the threat, is there something that all races agree (or disagree) on, what contact do they have with surface-dwellers? Regional Heiarchies: Who rules over certain territory, is it accepted or challenged, what are the perceived and actual chains of command, what does it mean to the surface lands? Entrances and Exits *Drow Mirrors: How are they created, how many are there, who possesses them and who uses them? *Natural caves: What natural caves exist which lead to the Underdark, does anyone have home-made adventures which would be appropriate, what guards the passages and who knows about them? *Temples of Underdark dieties: Major cities might have temples of dieties/Immortals who's realms include (and give entrance to) the Underdark, where are these, what do they look like, what are their aims, where do they lead? Weapons, Armor and Equipment Weapons: What special weapons exist in the Underdark, what does an Illithid's "Gnome Sticker" look like, what considerations must be taken fighting in close quarters, tunnels or in the dark? Crystal Armor: The secret of Crystal Armor has been jealously guarded by the LightLords of the Sun's Anvil, however it is rumored that a Stone-shaper Prince has learned the proceedure... Various unique alloys: What creative alternatives to metal alloys have Underdwellers created in their civilizations, are they sharper, stronger, naturally poisonous, harmed by daylight? *Survival gear for underground exploration: If you were the manager of the Underdark general store, what would you stock, what are the prices and availability, what advice would you give? Magic Old Earth-magic: There was a magic before even that of Elves, it was channelled by runes because none could control it. Few even remember, and fewer still know the secrets of Old Earth-magic. Racial Magic: TSR has touched on shamans of different races, but where did their magic come from, who developed it, how does it differ from 'classical' magic Dwarven MageSmiths: Where can they be found, what is their trade, how do you become one, what can they create, how well known are they on the surface? Living Jewels: Once a source of magical energy to their wielders, few still exist. Where are they, how are they used, can they be created? Monsters and Races "The Ecology of...": Pick your favorite Underdark creature and do a detailed report on its habits, environment, prey and predators, special abilities and interaction with the Underdark or Surface. Racial Communities: What does a Svirfneblin village look like, how is it governed, protected and seen from an outsider's perspective, what makes it unique, where is it located and why? Dungeons Abandoned monster lairs: What/Who *was* there, why did they leave and what is there now....? Tunnels left by Purple Worms: How deep do the tunnels go, what other areas do they access, who else uses them, where is the worm?!? *Hideouts of 'Underground' Rebels: Who are they, why are they rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters, how is the base hidden and protected, how are they supported and challenged? Ancient Temples of Evil Gods: What dark Gods and Immortals are hidden beneath the earth, what are their aims, who are their servants, who opposes them? *Lost Cities 'swallowed' by Earthquakes: What caused the earthquake, how much of the city remains, where are its inhabitants, how does it now inter- act with the Underdark? Adventure Ideas *Hooks/Rumors: A mage needs assistance in retrieving a spell component from a dungeon, a member of the party disappears - signs lead to the 'Dark, a criminal escapes, the gnolls declare war.... *NPC's: The Guide, an Illithid priest, an elven druid of the Underdark, an earth/fire mage tempering the fires of a volcano, a gnome sage, the emerald heiress... *Adventure Histories/Short (MAXIMUM 2 Pages) Stories: "The Wandering King", "An Unfinished EarthSong", "Cavern Shapers", "The Last Living Jewel" Miscellaneous *Maps: Treasure Maps, Illustrations of entrances, mazes, Underdark villages... Dieties: "She Who Guides Footfalls", Talor - God of the Stone Giants, Agathon - Patron Immortal of the Underdark.... Commercial Resources and Reviews: Commercial guides and resources, evaluations and reviews Relevant Internet Sites: WWWeb sites which contain information on the Underdark or similar material Questions and submissions can be made to: aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl Please include "UND-S" in the subject line. Regards, Alex. - - Alexander T. Knapp <Count Arien Darktower, Arch-Necromant> Editor, the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 01:42:45 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Facets of the Underdark >Thanks to all who've responded to my Call for Submssions for the >Net.Book.of.the.Underdark. Some of you have expressed a willingness to >write but weren't sure what material should go into the Net.Book. Others >have said that they were interested, but only had material on the surface >world. > >So, I wanted to start a thread on potential topics to add 'wood to the >fire' and people can pick and choose something that interests them. >Building on my earlier thoughts and hoping to inspire other suggestions of >what would be appropriate material for the Book. Whoa. I thought the agreement was that the original call for participation would be okay here but not the actual working through? This seems to be going a bit in depth for posting on the Mystara list. And what's a "Drow Mirror" doing on Mystara? Drow? Never heard of him/her/it. ;) /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu <scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Creature Catalog > > Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: > > I like that. I don't think I've ever in my life pontificated before this. :) I got my elm config file from a friend, and never bother to change that. I actually had no idea what pontificated means until I looked up in the dictionary, and left it there because I thought it might get a few more people to open up the dictionary either. Don't know where my friend come up with that. > > Reflecter (Golden human like creatures; apparently time travelers. They > shoot lightning, and don't talk much). I remember this guy. Can only be hit by +5 weapons, nearly immune to everything. Really scared me the first time I read it :) BTW, does all the creatures in the Creature Catalog were published before in other places, such as modules or Dragons? or are there some that was mde up just for the Catalog? I always hoped they could add in the reference where the creature come from originally so I could look it up if I wanted to. Oh, well. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:10:13 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Karameikos Hi, I'm looking for some background information of the ruins in karameikos. (I got the AD&D Boxed set). Can someone help me? Also, what are the fees of the Schools of Magecraft (Glantri, Karameikos, Alphatian) and what does that school of psionics do? (Hear something about it) DW ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:29:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Deathwatch wrote: > I'm looking for some background information of the ruins in karameikos. (I > got the AD&D Boxed set). > Can someone help me? Which ruins are those? (I don't own the AD&D boxed set, so if there is a specific area of ruins mentioned therein, I'm not sure what they are). Offhand, I can recall a few different locations of ruins that are mentioned specifically in various products: The ruins north of Threshold: Bargle the Infamous has a base here. The (former) ruins of Krakatos: Now home of the School of Magecraft. More information is given in Dragon #203 (or is it #205). I think it is #203, but the other issue number has information on the Barony of Halag (formerly known as Fort Doom), post Black Eagle era (ie, AC 1012). The ruins of Koriszegy Keep: Home to the Vampire Koriszegy, an ancient Traladaran vampire. The ruins of the Lost Valley: (North of Rifflian, I think- on the border 'twixt Darokin & Karameikos). These ruins are home to the Outer World remnants of the Hutaakan race, as well as a degenerate race of Traladarans (all that inbreeding, don'tcha know). The ruins of Xitaqa: Somewhere east of Kelvin (I think); Another ancient city of the Hutaaka; this one's abandoned, though. These are the major ruins that I know of (I think you probably want to know about Krakatos- check those Dragon articles. There was quite a bit of stuff there in the past). There are doubtless countless other little ruins around, legacies of both Hutaakan and (more likely) Traladaran heroes of the Golden Age onwards. Maybe even some Nithian ruins somewhere, if that's your taste, and times being what they are... > Also, what are the fees of the Schools of Magecraft (Glantri, Karameikos, > Alphatian) and what does that school of psionics do? (Hear something about it) As for the Karameikan school, I believe this info is in the aforementioned Dragon article (I know they at least have a 'Primer'- an elementary spell book for students there; representing the most commonly taught spells of levels 1-3). I think the old trail map (TM2) has some info on the Alphatian school(s), though I don't think any costs are mentioned. As for Glantri- I'm sure the info is in the GAZ, but I don't have it with me just now. As far as Psionics go- I only have one of the AD&D Mystara books, but as far as I know, they've never made Psionics a part of Mystara. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 03:07:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] ['Noids] Preliminary timeline Hey all! I mentioned a while back that I was working on a more complete timeline for our favorite 'noids in the Broken Lands, hoping to update things to give them all the credit they deserve- from pre1000 AC up through the WOtI. I thought I'd post what I've gotten so far, for your perusal, and also to solicit your help for what you think might be some good ideas for their activities, or even some things they've done in the interim in your own campaigns. Also, feel free to direct any questions, clarifications, or just to ask where in the hell do I purport to get my information from, anyhow? ;) 944 A.C.- Xoteczuma is born in Oenkmar. 946 A.C.- Xilochtli is born in Oenkmar. 949 A.C.- Lord Zotl is born in Oenkmar. 951 A.C.- Xilochtli is taken by shamans of Atzanteotl to study at the Great Temple. 954 A.C.- Thar is born in Orcus Rex. 955 A.C.- Zar is born in Kol. 958 A.C.- Doth is born in High Gobliny. 960 A.C.- Yazar is born in High Gobliny. 961 A.C.- Kol IV is born in Kol. 963 A.C.- Xoteczuma takes a mate, a fellow Wokan. 964 A.C.- Zotl is recruited into the army of Oenkmar, following his family's traditions; Xilochtli is named High Priest of Atzanteotl. 966 A.C.- Xilochtli, under Atzanteotl's instruction, immolates himself. He is resurrected, more dangerous than ever. 967 A.C.- Xilochtli embarks on a crusade to stamp out heretics in Oenkmar; Among the victims sacrificed to Atzanteotl is the husband of Xoteczuma. 968 A.C.- Hutai Khan is born in Hobgobland. 970 A.C.- Moghul-Khan is born in Yellow Orkia; Ohr'r is born in Bugburbia. 972 A.C.- Thar becomes a Nosferatu(1). King Oth deposed following failed raid on Hobgobland; Doth takes over rule of High Gobliny. 973 A.C.- Yazar routs the armies of General Zar(2); Later, she and Doth are married- a marriage of convenience. 974 A.C.- Zotl becomes general of the Oenkmarian army, after a distinguished career. 975 A.C.- OrcWars: King Thar unites the Broken Lands; H'aak Hordar is born in Trollhattan; Red Orcland is freed of High Gobliny rule(3). 976 A.C.- Alebane is born in Ogremoor; Hoolg Red-Mane is born in Red Orcland. 977 A.C.- Ximanga is born in Red Orcland; Thar institutes the creation of Duh Legion; Nizam Pasha is born in Gnollistan. 982 A.C.- Ohr'r is expelled from Bugburbia and sent into Glantri with his gang of toughs. 984 A.C.- After a long career with the Fellowship of the Pouch in Glantri, Ohr'r is finally caught by Prince Jaggar and sent back to Bugburbia. He is named Chieftain not long after. 989 A.C.- Ximanga is kidnapped and taken to Oenkmar. Additional Notes: 1) Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany, angered at having one of his spellbooks stolen, slaughters much of Chief Thar's horde (the rest flee like the cowards they are). He turns Thar into a Nosferatu and sends him back to the Broken Lands to wreak havoc among the pitiful humanoids there, in order to teach them a lesson. Of course, Thar's newfound powers enable him to more quickly rise to power than otherwise would have been possible. Note also that, even if Thar himself didn't consider vampirism a threat to his rule, Prince G-W wouldn't want a bunch of 'noid vampires threatening him either (recall his laws in his own barony in Glantri), so Thar will not spread this condition, in any event. 2) Yazar distinguishes herself in this latest Kol- High Gobliny war, winning the loyalty of many High Goblinians; factions form between her supporters and Doth's. 3) This maneuver is widely regarded as a large coup on Thar's part. In order to break up the power of High Gobliny, Red Orcland is returned to its proper rulers. This also earns Thar the admiration of the Red Orclanders. That's about all I've got so far. There are still a few notable events to place in the "prehistory" of the Broken Lands, among them Alebane's gladiator days, Moghul-Khan's lycanthropy, Nizam's holy crusade in Ylaruam, plus a few others. ------------------------------ From: "Alexandre Gregoire" <kat.path@spherenet.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:20:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Anyone in Montreal? - ---------- > De : Dean Gilbert <dgilbert@bc.sympatico.ca> > A : mystara-l@io.com > Objet : [Mystara] Anyone in Montreal? > Date : 27 juillet, 1996 18:33 > > Just curious if there was anyone running a Mystara game in > Montreal. I'm headed there in a month to go to McGill. > Hi Dean, I'm in Montreal but I'm not running a Mystara game right now but I will in a few months. If you need players or DM call me. Alex Gregoire, kat.path@spherenet.com ------------------------------ From: "Alexander T. Knapp" <aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:26:15 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Facets of the Underdark > >Thanks to all who've responded to my Call for Submssions for the > >Net.Book.of.the.Underdark. Some of you have expressed a willingness to > >write but weren't sure what material should go into the Net.Book. Others > >have said that they were interested, but only had material on the surface > >world. > Whoa. I thought the agreement was that the original call for > participation would be okay here but not the actual working through? This > seems to be going a bit in depth for posting on the Mystara list. And > what's a "Drow Mirror" doing on Mystara? Drow? Never heard of >him/her/it. ;) As two of the twelve replies asking for suggestions came from subscribers to the Mystara list, I felt it appropriate to post it. Similarly, according to Leroy's response: > The post was perfectly appropriate, as are posts on requests and occasional > updates on the project. As long as it has some connection to Mystara, it's > fine. "Facets" was a response to requests for information which I received via private E-mail. I assumed that, like in school, if one person asked the question, at least a half a dozen were thinking it. Look, I'm not trying to be a lawyer here. I am just trying to provide a service which will benefit everyone who has an interest in the Underdark, *wherever* it might be located. I, for one, will use any resource, be it AD&D, Shadowrun, Jules Verne or the Roman Empire to make my six year long *Mystara* campaign even better for my players. I'm surprised that other DM's might not. If this is going to be such a problem, as I said before, I will exclude the Mystara-list from further posts. But wouldn't you rather be a part of the creation of the Net.Book, though, and have the chance to make more Mystara material available for everyone? - - Alexander T. Knapp <Count Arien Darktower, Arch-Necromant> Editor, the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl ------------------------------ From: MRRU13A@prodigy.com ( TIMOTHY M DI BONA) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:18:52, -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Re: Facets of the Underdark >Sites - > Funghi forests: what can be found in their 'darker' depths? From ???@??? Fri Aug 23 13:02:05 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA29079; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:28:32 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00916 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:08:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:08:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199608222008.PAA00916@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #192 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: bed988a5b2b218f7e4870f05b9d09644 Maybe some sort of original type of nymphs or sprites could live there. > Underground lakes, seas and rivers: Where does the water come from? It can be soaked down from the surface, or some may even be magically created. > is it navigable? yes, but probably not like on the surface. The water is probably more dense than on the surface. There would have to be a better way to travel the water. > is there any civilization on the banks? yes, probably a good place for some wonderers to stay, or maybe hermits > what lives in it? Some fish could live with the help of a sonar-like ability to allow them to stalk prey, and find a mate. There probably are many monsters in there. > City information: More than dwarves and drow live in > the Underdark, who is there? Definetly Illithids(mind Flayer) maybe the Deep Gauraunt (not sure on spelling, it's in the Mystaran Monsturous Compendium) > and how long have they been there? different for each society > do they welcome contact with surface dwellers? probably very few if any. They probably see the surface dwellers as the surface dwellers see them. The only places that would, would probably be because of curiosity. > Points of interest: > shadowstone and magnetic ores what is shadowstone??? >Politics - > The Dwarven Battle of Seven Years: What was it? maybe a deep dwarf and duergar war. > over what? probably not anything to do with gems and ores (too obvious and common). Maybe, the durgar were planning a raid on the surface, and the deep Dwarves stopped them for some reason. > Who won and why did it only > last seven years? The Deep Dwarfs won by preventing any major armies to reach the surface. Some may have reached the surface, which could be an adventuring opportunity for PCs, and maybe even lead PCs down into the Underdark. > *Inter-race relations: > who would ally together against a common threat? i don't think many of the Underdark races are trustworthy, and they all must know it, so I think unity would only exist in the most dire circumstances. > who would be the threat? any of the races down there can pose major threats. > Regional Heiarchies: what does it mean to > the surface lands? I wouldn't think the surface would know of most of the battles, and political systems of the Underdark. >Entrances and Exits > *Natural caves: What natural caves exist which lead to > the Underdark, does anyone have home-made adventures > which would be appropriate, what guards the passages > and who knows about them? These "natural" Caves are probably very very rare, and are probably protected deep down by magic of some sort > *Temples of Underdark dieties: Major cities might have > temples of dieties/Immortals who's realms include > (and give entrance to) the Underdark, where are > these, what do they look like, what are their aims, > where do they lead? I would picture these to be alot like the temple in Indiana Jones, where he walks through the cave and sees the shaman tearing the heart of a sacrificed victim, and the body being dropped into the magma of the earth. >Weapons, Armor and Equipment > Crystal Armor: The secret of Crystal Armor has been > jealously guarded by the LightLords of the Sun's > Anvil, however it is rumored that a Stone-shaper > Prince has learned the proceedure... I don't know anything about the Lightlords. I like theese ideas you're coming up with. Keep up the good work and posts. - -Tim ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin <kaelin@natural.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:00:17 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Lichdom Revisited Howdy, I've had a Mystara/Lich question for quite some time and was looking for some advice. In my campaign Morphail is a main antagonist and he's starting to get a bit stale. I've decided to find a way to avail him of one avenue of power not discussed anywhere. He's going to use his High Master power and he's going to become a Lich. (In the Glantri Boxed Set it says something like "Obviously Morphail has no intention of using his High Necromancer power." This is the only refernce I can find to explain why he hasn't used it already.) The way I see it, I can find 3 possible ways for this to happen. Please offer any advice or opinions on their playability/merit. 1) Morphail cannot be both a vampire and lich, so he must "cure" himself of his Vampirism first, then undertake the ritual for Lichdom as a mortal. This would probably require a True Dweomer for the cure. The players could then try to stop him from gathering the exotic components he needs for the spell. (This is my least favorite idea, and he probably won't do it if he has to give up his vampire powers. I use Van Richten's Guide to the Vampire for his stats, so because he's over 200 years old he's much more pumped then a fledgling vampire, and growing stronger every century.) 2) Morphail can become a Lich now In which case he'd have to heavily modify the standard High Necromancer's power to account for his vampire status. (Again which would require gathering components/finding ancient tomes that the players can assist/prevent as best they can.) He'd then "evolve" for lack of a better word, into a Lich, losing all his vampire powers. (He'd probably keep his vampire enhanced stats at his current age level, and possibly a power or two but would loose the majority of his powers/vulnerabilities.) 3) Morphial can find a way to combine all aspects of a Lich and a Vampire. If anyone can do this, it's the High Necromancer in Glantri. (This is the case I'm leaning towards, but I worry about balance.) The benefits of this as I see it would be. a) He'd no longer have to sleep for 8 hours a day, since Liches don't need sleep. b) He wouldn't have to feed anymore, since Lichdom grants freedom from food, water and air to mortals it would probably free him from his physical needs to eat. c) His mentaility would stablize, as liches are not prone to the emotional outburts/depression vampires are known for. d) He'd still gain in power/stats as a vampire as he ages. (Which means when he turns 1000 years old, and becomes a Patriarch he'll be immune to all the vampire weaknesses, except for a stake through the heart.) e) All the Lich benefits. He'd probably lose: a) His ability to regenerate. (Which probably balances the no feeding benefit.) b) Possibly his level drain. (IMC he's a vampire and not a Nosferatu, can Nosferatu drain levels?) c) Other powers that I haven't thought of yet. I'm just kicking ideas around now really, and welcome any comments/ideas/suggestions. Thanks. - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com <http://www.natural.com> ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #192 ***************************** From ???@??? Sat Aug 24 15:06:31 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA23158; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 06:21:25 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA09633 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:11:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:11:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199608232011.PAA09633@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #193 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a78bfcedaa46c13c53a303d25fa3f597 mystara-digest Friday, 23 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 193 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The Registry Form, Again... Here is my original post on the member registry page, for those who missed it. I would love to see a bunch more people send this in, to make the memeber list page worth the effort... Mystarans, Hopefully here soon I am going to sit my arse down and _make_ time to update the List home page (http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm), which is looking woefully unimpressive. I am hoping to add frames and images and such. One of the ideas I put forward that many seemed to like was the idea of a page with the names and addresses of list members, a registry of sorts. And I think I will go ahead with it, if I get enough responses. So, if you would like to have your name on the list members page, fill out the following "form" and send it to... owner-mystara-l@io.com Please do not send it to the list, or too van891@uidaho.edu. Also, please only send the form portion of this, if possible. Thanks. - ----------------------------Cut Here--------------------------- Name: E-Mail Address: City/State/Country: Age: Home Page: Years Playing RPG's: Years Involved with Mystara: Other D&D Settings Used: Other RPG's Played: General Comments: - ----------------------------Cut Here--------------------------- Note that this is not required. If you don't want to do this, feel free not to. Also, none of the above fields, excepting Name, is required. Don't want to share your Age? Address? Whatever? That's fine. The home page does not have to be a Mystara-specific page. Thanks to all who participate. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kodos ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Stuff, Including This Net.Book Thing... Mystarans, A few administrative notes for your perusal... A Temporary Hiatus For two full days, the system at the University of Idaho was down, nad I was unable to log in. This means my mail went unchecked, and since I am subscribed to 15+ mailing lists, my mailbox was overflowing when things came back up. Since then I have had old mail that was queued trickle in at an irregular rate. Why do I tell you this? Well... 1) If you ever need to contact me, for whatever reason, it is better to do so through 'owner-mystara-l@io.com', since mail problems at io.com are rare. 2) I did not get copies of all of the list postings, and I have also missed several personal e-mailings. All do to the crash. So, if anyone tried to contact me here, and I have not responded yet, it is probably because I missed it. Admonishing Other List Members There have been numerous occasions when something has been posted to the list that is not Mystara-related, or even game related, such as advertisements, or automated replies due to "subscription bombs" (remember the Gingrich spam?). And sometimes people just go off on threads that widely diverge from their original topic. When this happens, I must ask that list members do not post public admonishments to the list. If the original post was an advertisement, or something like the Gingrich spam, I generally respond immediately, usually by contacting the postmaster of the message's domain of origin. Many of the people who have spammed the list with advertisements have lost their accounts due to my responses. If the original post is one that you, as a member, think is beyond the scope of this list, please contact me and let me know about the situation. If I agree, I will act accordingly. The reason I ask this is not becasue I am (appreciably) powermad. Rather, I have found that most people take such admonishments from the list administrator better than from another member, especially if the original poster feels what they posted was legitimate. If people let me know about their problems, I can judge the situation, and make the call in a manner less likely to be taken personally, saving the list from potential flame wars and hurt feelings. The Underdark Net Book There has been some debate over whether or not the independent project to write a Net.Book for the Underdark is appropriate material for the list. In the beginning, I stated that announcements to the list are fine, as long as the bulk of the work was not done on the list. Not long ago, the project manager posted more stuff on the list, and some felt it was inappropriate, since it looked alot like the "work" I had mentioned previously. Later, the project manager contacted me personally, and said he would really like to see the inclusion of Mystara material, since it is the setting he himself prefers, and has no intention of swamping the list with "work". So, my current decision is to let things continue as they have, as long as updates aren't more often than one per day or so, and the discussion stays fairly close to Mystara. After all, this is an open project, and what would make it Mystara-relavent would be Mystara fan support. If anyone has comments on this, please direct them to me at 'owner-mystara-l@io.com'. The Mystara Home Page I am still forging ahead on the Mystara Mailing List home page, and am currently working on some of the page title art. Until then, please keep mailing in those URLs and registry forms (which I will repost). Well, that's all for now. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard <jovard@polarnet.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 13:17:11 PDT Subject: [Mystara] Re: Facets of the Underdark I'm afraid I don't understand the basis behind this net book. Is it supposed to be transferable between Campaign Settings? That just won't work. I'm hearing talk about Drow, Duergar, Illithids... I don't think so... Forgotten Realms, yeah, Greyhawk, maybe...Mystara, no. Unless there will be a seperate book for Mystara, this should not be discussed on this list. The invitation has been given. The rest should be done elsewhere. J.Ovard jovard@polarnet.com ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:41:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom Revisited On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Robert Kaelin wrote: > In my campaign Morphail is a main antagonist and he's starting to get a bit > stale. I've decided to find a way to avail him of one avenue of power not > discussed anywhere. He's going to use his High Master power and he's going > to become a Lich. (In the Glantri Boxed Set it says something like > "Obviously Morphail has no intention of using his High Necromancer power." > This is the only refernce I can find to explain why he hasn't used it > already.) Why would he possibly want to do this? Oh... I see. > The benefits of this as I see it would be. > a) He'd no longer have to sleep for 8 hours a day, since Liches don't need > sleep. What's wrong with sleeping, everyone does it... except Liches, apparently. > b) He wouldn't have to feed anymore, since Lichdom grants freedom from > food, water and air to mortals it would probably free him from his physical > needs to eat. Again, see a). It's not as if feeding is a huge problem for him, since he's a Prince. He probably has basements full of slaves that he dines on whenever he wants. > c) His mentaility would stablize, as liches are not prone to the emotional > outburts/depression vampires are known for. I'd just have him take some Prozac, myself. > e) All the Lich benefits. Which are, exactly? I mean, look at it this way, as a Vampire(or Nosferatu, an OD&D equivalent which is more like the vampire as described in Bram Stoker's _Dracula_- ie, sunlight doesn't destroy them.), Prince G-W can still blend with society. He is, after all, a notable socialite. He can mingle, party, seduce women (and/or men, if that's your taste, and times being what they are...). Whereas, Lichdom pretty much kills your social life- Look at Prince Brannart. (and talk about emotional instability- this guy seems like the most misanthropic so and so I've ever seen- you would be too if you couldn't go out in public without smelling like a corpse...) > > He'd probably lose: > b) Possibly his level drain. (IMC he's a vampire and not a Nosferatu, can > Nosferatu drain levels?) No. They just drink blood. > I'm just kicking ideas around now really, and welcome any > comments/ideas/suggestions. Though I'm still not sure exactly why you want to make him a Lich rather than a Vampire (one undead's just like another, IMO. "Pass the Holy Water, Phil."), I don't think you'd need to go as far as a True Dweomer (what is that anyway, a tenth level spell?). All Prince G-W would have to do would be to let someone kill him (trust, its such a fragile thing...), cast Dispel evil on the remains, resurrect him, then the now alive Prince G-W could cast the fifth circle spell. At any rate, I see two big problems with his transformation: 1) His vampire pawns. Once he becomes a Lich, will they still be under his command? Or do they become free-willed? 2) Alphaks may take exception to his mucking about. Recall that Prince G-W is a vampire due to Alphaks' machinations. He promised to serve (or something) in exchange for immortality. (just goes to show that you shouldn't bargain with demons). Alphaks may view Prince G-W's decision as his attempt to regain his freedom, and the immortal may take steps to intervene... and Alphaks isn't known for his patience. ------------------------------ From: Scott Johnson <zagyg@io.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:17:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] ['Noids] Preliminary timeline On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: I like it. I'd like it to be a bit more fleshed out, really, but it works well for me. Just a few things I'd like to point out: > > 961 A.C.- Kol IV is born in Kol. Note that at this time, he was called Constantin Diocletius. He only took the Kol name upon becoming High Doge. Also, as I recall, they wobbled back and forth about the number in the Almanacs, but in the original Gazeteer, he was definitely Kol XIV. I think a fourteen-generation dynasty works better than a four-generation one, especially given the probable lifespans of kobolds... > 1) Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany, angered at having one of his > spellbooks stolen, slaughters much of Chief Thar's horde (the rest flee > like the cowards they are). He turns Thar into a Nosferatu and sends him > back to the Broken Lands to wreak havoc among the pitiful humanoids > there, in order to teach them a lesson. Of course, Thar's newfound powers > enable him to more quickly rise to power than otherwise would have been > possible. Note also that, even if Thar himself didn't consider vampirism > a threat to his rule, Prince G-W wouldn't want a bunch of 'noid vampires > threatening him either (recall his laws in his own barony in Glantri), so > Thar will not spread this condition, in any event. Nice. Explains Thar's rise to power, and why the Prince isn't paying attention to him. > That's about all I've got so far. There are still a few notable events to > place in the "prehistory" of the Broken Lands, among them Alebane's > gladiator days, Moghul-Khan's lycanthropy, Nizam's holy crusade in > Ylaruam, plus a few others. You might also tie Uruk Vaath's first appearance to the time Jaggar von Drachenfels dropped Ohr'r off in the Broken Lands - it would be a nice explanation for how the Prince came to be interested in the Broken Lands in the first place... - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Facets of the Underdark On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, J. Ovard wrote: > I'm afraid I don't understand the basis behind this net book. > Is it supposed to be transferable between Campaign Settings? Yup. It looks like it is meant as a generic work. > That just won't work. I'm hearing talk about Drow, Duergar, Illithids... > I don't think so... Forgotten Realms, yeah, Greyhawk, maybe...Mystara, > no. While I agree Drow on Mystara would be silly, I see nothing wrong with either Duergar or Illithids. AAMOF, I added Mind Flayers to my Mystara long ago. Had an OD&D version written up which I would post if I could find it. Other than a few exceptions, it seems like much of the book would work fine with Mystara. Besides, the project manager posted the stuff to the list because he wants Mystara material for it. > Unless there will be a seperate book for Mystara, this should not be > discussed on this list. The invitation has been given. The rest should > be done elsewhere. In an [ADMIN] post to the list, I comment on members admonishing one another. Since it is possible you have not received it, I will summarize... Please do not admonish other list members for the material they post. If you feel what they post is inappropriate, let me, the administrator, know, and I will adjudicate the situation. I can be reached at either of the addresses in my sig, preferably the io.com address. This is to prevent hard feelings from forming, leading to possible flame wars or people unsubscribing in anger. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Shin Chyang Yu <scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 01:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom Revisited From ???@??? Sat Aug 24 15:06:31 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA23158; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 06:21:25 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA09633 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:11:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:11:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199608232011.PAA09633@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #193 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a78bfcedaa46c13c53a303d25fa3f597 Robert Kaelin pontificated: > > 1) Morphail cannot be both a vampire and lich, so he must "cure" himself of > his Vampirism first, then undertake the ritual for Lichdom as a mortal. > This would probably require a True Dweomer for the cure. The players could > then try to stop him from gathering the exotic components he needs for the > spell. (This is my least favorite idea, and he probably won't do it if he > has to give up his vampire powers. I use Van Richten's Guide to the > Vampire for his stats, so because he's over 200 years old he's much more > pumped then a fledgling vampire, and growing stronger every century.) One interesting twist with this is that the players might want to help Morphail to cure the vampirism so he can be weaken enough to be destoryed or whatever. > 3) Morphial can find a way to combine all aspects of a Lich and a Vampire. > If anyone can do this, it's the High Necromancer in Glantri. (This is the > case I'm leaning towards, but I worry about balance.) Well, if he is the big bad guy in your campaing, I say don't worry about him to be too powerful. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 00:40:51 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] ['Noids] Preliminary timeline On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Scott Johnson wrote: > I like it. I'd like it to be a bit more fleshed out, really, but it > works well for me. Just a few things I'd like to point out: Thanks. I wasn't sure just how much detail to give certain events therein, and as I said, I'm still sort of adding a few things. Thanks for your other suggestions here, BTW. :) > > 961 A.C.- Kol IV is born in Kol. [Reply about Kol's number in the succession clipped for brevity's sake.] DOH! Of course, that should be Kol XIV. I don't know where that X went... I'll also make note of both his original name and the time of his name change when I update it. [Likewise my original explanation of Prince G-W and his nosferatuism- this guy seems to be getting a lot of air time lately, huh? Must be a favorite villian in many campaigns] > Nice. Explains Thar's rise to power, and why the Prince isn't paying > attention to him. I thought it would do for starters. It didn't occur to me until recently that Prince G-W might have some sort of liege-pawn relationship, and this seems to have definitely been overlooked in most places. Something else that I think interesting about this will be when Kol is petitioning for rulership. Synn wants Kol as an ally, but Prince G-W, via Thar, would already have a pawn in place in the south... would he support Synn? Any thoughts? > You might also tie Uruk Vaath's first appearance to the time Jaggar von > Drachenfels dropped Ohr'r off in the Broken Lands - it would be a nice > explanation for how the Prince came to be interested in the Broken Lands > in the first place... That's a good idea. I hadn't considered this one. Up until 975, at any rate, I don't think any of the human lands would be at all concerned with the Broken Lands. This would be a good way to bring things together. Also, in the Night**** series of modules (HWA series), in HWA1 it mentions an exchange program between Queen Yazar and Glantri. Any ideas on the reasons for this, when, how? ------------------------------ From: Windows 95 INNOVA Media User <george@msn.fullfeed.com> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:47:47 -0500 Subject: RE: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The Registry Form, Again... - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB90DE.01E8E400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Name: George E. Hrabovsky E-Mail Address: george@msn.fullfeed.com City/State/Country: Madison/WI/USA Age: 35 Home Page: Years Playing RPG's: Forever (20 years) Years Involved with Mystara: 11 years Other D&D Settings Used: Home made Other RPG's Played: Rune Quest, C&S, EPT, T&T, etc... General Comments: I like this newsgroup - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB90DE.01E8E400 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ii8PAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AAwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAD8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAF AAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABEAAABteXN0YXJhLWxAaW8uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEwAQAAABMAAAAnbXlzdGFyYS1sQGlvLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAFgAAAFNNVFA6TVlTVEFS QS1MQElPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD0CwBCIAHABgAAABJ UE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAMgAAAFJFOiBbTXlzdGFyYV0gW0FETUlOXSBU aGUgUmVnaXN0cnkgRm9ybSwgQWdhaW4uLi4A7w8BBYADAA4AAADMBwgAFwAJAC8ALwAFAF4BASCA AwAOAAAAzAcIABcACQAtACkABQBWAQEJgAEAIQAAADc5MDdCQzI4QzJGQ0NGMTE5QkVDNDQ0NTUz NTQwMDAwABQHAQOQBgBgAwAAEAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5 AMAtpgwCkbsBHgBwAAEAAAAyAAAAUkU6IFtNeXN0YXJhXSBbQURNSU5dIFRoZSBSZWdpc3RyeSBG b3JtLCBBZ2Fpbi4uLgAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7kQIMnii8B3r8whHPm+xERVNUAAAAAAMABhCM GQRIAwAHEBEBAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABOQU1FOkdFT1JHRUVIUkFCT1ZTS1lFLU1BSUxBRERSRVNT OkdFT1JHRUBNU05GVUxMRkVFRENPTUNJVFkvU1RBVEUvQ09VTlRSWTpNQURJU09OL1dJL1VTQUFH RTozNUhPTUVQAAAAAAIBCRABAAAA/gEAAPoBAAAOBAAATFpGdeMxJMb/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC 8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EWDzI1 NQKACoENsQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRRawvyE1BvE9BjBUAKi2w4aTM2GpEZ7xryTmEVB4A6HF1jAEAg IEcCZQWwZ2UgRS4gBEhyAaBvdnNreWMcXxrbRS1NC3AUoWR+ZBYQBBAeDx8SH5AfckAAbXNuLmZ1 bGzSZgngZC4FoG0gjxrbwENpdHkvUwGQE9DmLwhRAjByeSNPHxIigAZkBAACIC9XSS9V7FNBJg8a 20EfkCkPHxJsMzUrPxrbSANwH6BQ5mEtIQqFWWURkTDQC2CKeQuAZwfwUEcnIz8lHwNGBbBldgSQ ICjpAdAgeTGyKS6/GtsxpJhJbnYG8DRgZCAD8Nx0aAXQE7EKwGEy3x8SvjEfIDTjCoc1bxryTzgw 8TRxRCZEBlECQDJBBCD6VRGwZDjfHxIwkwDADbB/Ox8a2zyEMoMx8z3fHvRSWyiwH6BRClATwCwn 0CYiU0TARVBURMBUJvNFURHAYy5GAD/fGtsfUO9EQCAAAyAIUG0HgAIwMs/pHwNJIBwAax+gODAE ALIgREB3cwnACGBwRj8LGtsVMQBN0AAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzAA0PDBAZG7AUAACDAA 0PDBAZG7AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAauk= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB90DE.01E8E400-- ------------------------------ From: Simon Seah <seah@sfu.ca> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] Registry Name: Simon Seah E-Mail Address: seah@sfu.ca City/State/Country: Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada Age: 24 Home Page: n/a Years Playing RPG's: 12 Years Involved with Mystara: 4 Other D&D Settings Used: n/a Other RPG's Played: V&V, Rifts (Palladium), Beyond the Supernatural, Robotech, RoleMaster, Street Fighter : the Role Playing Game, Dramatic License (work in progress), others that I can't remember offhand or that I am too embarassed to say General Comments: ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin <kaelin@natural.com> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:12:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom Revisited > >> In my campaign Morphail is a main antagonist and he's starting to get a bit >> stale. I've decided to find a way to avail him of one avenue of power not >> discussed anywhere. He's going to use his High Master power and he's going >> to become a Lich. (In the Glantri Boxed Set it says something like >> "Obviously Morphail has no intention of using his High Necromancer power." >> This is the only refernce I can find to explain why he hasn't used it >> already.) > >Why would he possibly want to do this? > >Oh... I see. I was just looking for ideas really. (I know it's kinda a Monty Haul question, but the adventures I'm trying to set up are for a 16th-18th level party. I'm just looking for a new twist on an old favorite.) :-) >> The benefits of this as I see it would be. >> a) He'd no longer have to sleep for 8 hours a day, since Liches don't need >> sleep. > >What's wrong with sleeping, everyone does it... except Liches, apparently. First, IMC Vampires are very vulnerable when they sleep during the day. Even if awoken they are weak and unable to use most of their powers until after a while "waking up". (This is more my rule then a standard, but it's a major vulnerability. It's almost cost him his unlife a few times.) Second, Morphail is a mage, and the High Necromancer at that. Not needing to sleep will give him 8 more hours a day for spell research, magic item creation, what have you. (He does a lot of inventing in my campaign to keep on top of his enemies, and his "friends".) What Arch-Mage wouldn't enjoy being given 8 more hours a day? >> b) He wouldn't have to feed anymore, since Lichdom grants freedom from >> food, water and air to mortals it would probably free him from his physical >> needs to eat. > >Again, see a). It's not as if feeding is a huge problem for him, since >he's a Prince. He probably has basements full of slaves that he dines on >whenever he wants. True, he probably even enjoys feeding. (But it's still a weakness, anything that he "requires" is something that can possibly be used against him). Also, there are some components/tomes/experiments that he can only do himself (or trusts to do by himself.) It's not uncommon for him to be away from his Prinicpality on one quest or another frequently. For example, PlaneScape is a big part of my campaign, and there are many gates in Glantri to the various planes. Where do you find human blood in Baator (the 9 hells), or the abyss where it can easily take weeks, months or even years of walking to get anywhere? >> c) His mentaility would stablize, as liches are not prone to the emotional >> outburts/depression vampires are known for. > >I'd just have him take some Prozac, myself. Cute. >> e) All the Lich benefits. > >Which are, exactly? I mean, look at it this way, as a Vampire(or >Nosferatu, an OD&D equivalent which is more like the vampire as described >in Bram Stoker's _Dracula_- ie, sunlight doesn't destroy them.), Prince >G-W can still blend with society. He is, after all, a notable socialite. >He can mingle, party, seduce women (and/or men, if that's your taste, and >times being what they are...). Whereas, Lichdom pretty much kills your >social life- Look at Prince Brannart. (and talk about emotional >instability- this guy seems like the most misanthropic so and so I've >ever seen- you would be too if you couldn't go out in public without >smelling like a corpse...) A total misconception. Liches can use illusions and enchantment/charm spells. (Which he cannot use now in an AD&D campaign because he's a Necromancer, liches are exempt from the standard Necromancer restrictions.) He can still have a social life. (Although after 200 years going to tonight's party just doesn't mean that much after all.) Also, with all the pressure his rivals, his pawns, and the good guys have been putting him under, he really doesn't have time for a social life in my campaign. Besides, if he doesn't have to feed anymore, he doesn't need contact with people anyway. :-) I understand your point, it's a sacrifice...but it's for a great deal of power. Besides, it's a whole new level of undead...a first, something that will set a new mark in necromancy that necromancers will study, and perhaps aspire t,o for centuries to come if it works. That's worth giving up the occaisional gala ball for just about any mage (and I don't think anyone will question Morphail's ambition.) (As an aside, Brannart was an asshole and an isolationist long before he became a lich.) :-) >> I'm just kicking ideas around now really, and welcome any >> comments/ideas/suggestions. > >Though I'm still not sure exactly why you want to make him a Lich rather >than a Vampire (one undead's just like another, IMO. "Pass the Holy >Water, Phil."), I don't think you'd need to go as far as a True Dweomer >(what is that anyway, a tenth level spell?). Well, my campaign started a few weeks after the Complete Guide to Necromancers came out. It centers around undead as the primary opponents and about half of the party are Necromancers, or wizards in the Necromancers craft. (It's pretty much an all Glantri campaign after all, so most of them are mages or mage's bodyguards/servants/retainers.) So, one undead is by no means like another here. :-) >All Prince G-W would have to do would be to let someone kill him (trust, >its such a fragile thing...), cast Dispel evil on the remains, resurrect >him, then the now alive Prince G-W could cast the fifth circle spell. No 5th level cleric spell is going to cure a 200+ year old vampire of his curse (given to him by an Immortal, as you remind me) in my campaign. :-) >At any rate, I see two big problems with his transformation: > >1) His vampire pawns. Once he becomes a Lich, will they still be under >his command? Or do they become free-willed? I'd say no, but it's irrelevant in my campaign. I follow the Van Richtens explanation of vampire pawns. Pawns only obey the commands of their leige out of fear and the fact the pawns are frequently unaware of their full powers/condition. (Usually because the liege tells them something like, "If I die, you'll turn into dust", and without any source to confirm this, how do they know for the frst 20 years or so?) They never were under any compulsion to follow his orders, except for the the spells/powers the High Necromancer can command (keep in mind he's higher level/HD then most of them so they're putty in his 2nd circle Control Undead hands.) or the fear he can instill in them. (Becoming a lich might actually enhance his control over them.) >2) Alphaks may take exception to his mucking about. Recall that Prince >G-W is a vampire due to Alphaks' machinations. He promised to serve (or >something) in exchange for immortality. (just goes to show that you >shouldn't bargain with demons). Alphaks may view Prince G-W's decision as >his attempt to regain his freedom, and the immortal may take steps to >intervene... and Alphaks isn't known for his patience. I had forgotton about this one. (Actually being undead centric, Nyx is much more common in my campaign world. Perhaps she'd intervene, perhaps Alphaks doesn't care any more, perhaps he's spending more time focusing on the Hollow World now that his hated Alphatia is down there. Maybe I'll just have to have him have an "accident".) :-) Anywho, thanks for the ideas. (Sarcasm and all) :-) - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com <http://www.natural.com> ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #193 ***************************** mystara-digest Sunday, 25 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 194 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 00:55:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom Revisited On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Robert Kaelin wrote: > I was just looking for ideas really. (I know it's kinda a Monty Haul > question, but the adventures I'm trying to set up are for a 16th-18th level > party. I'm just looking for a new twist on an old favorite.) :-) Gotcha. Sorry if some of my replies seemed a bit snide. I must have been in a weird mood when I initially replied... :p > >> a) He'd no longer have to sleep for 8 hours a day, since Liches don't need > >> sleep. > First, IMC Vampires are very vulnerable when they sleep during the day. > Even if awoken they are weak and unable to use most of their powers until > after a while "waking up". (This is more my rule then a standard, but it's > a major vulnerability. It's almost cost him his unlife a few times.) Gotcha. I could see this- I could even make a case for the Nosferatu being like this; Bram Stoker's Dracula was unable to use his powers during the day. And I gather, from your response that the players' characters already know of his condition. > >> b) He wouldn't have to feed anymore, since Lichdom grants freedom from > >> food, water and air to mortals it would probably free him from his physical > >> needs to eat. > > True, he probably even enjoys feeding. (But it's still a weakness, > anything that he "requires" is something that can possibly be used against > him). Also, there are some components/tomes/experiments that he can only > do himself (or trusts to do by himself.) It's not uncommon for him to be > away from his Prinicpality on one quest or another frequently. For > example, PlaneScape is a big part of my campaign, and there are many gates > in Glantri to the various planes. Where do you find human blood in Baator > (the 9 hells), or the abyss where it can easily take weeks, months or even > years of walking to get anywhere? > >> c) His mentaility would stablize, as liches are not prone to the emotional > >> outburts/depression vampires are known for. > > > >I'd just have him take some Prozac, myself. > > Cute. No- really. Just think of it. Seeking some means of curing his vampiric depression, Morphail seeks out an Alchemist, who conjures up some form of Prozac or something. Said alchemist gets the bright idea of making the drug addictive, so the Prince is turned into his slave and... okay, maybe its a bit sketchy. (I'd bet that alchemist would clean up; especially with all those manic-depressive wizards in Glantri... ;) > Besides, it's a whole new level of undead...a first, something that will > set a new mark in necromancy that necromancers will study, and perhaps > aspire t,o for centuries to come if it works. That's worth giving up the > occaisional gala ball for just about any mage (and I don't think anyone > will question Morphail's ambition.) (As an aside, Brannart was an asshole > and an isolationist long before he became a lich.) :-) That's probably true (about Brannart). :) > No 5th level cleric spell is going to cure a 200+ year old vampire of his > curse (given to him by an Immortal, as you remind me) in my campaign. :-) Good point. I didn't even think of the Alphaks thing until later in my response, so it didn't occur to me to amend this. [My stuff about Alphaks clipped]. > I had forgotton about this one. (Actually being undead centric, Nyx is > much more common in my campaign world. Perhaps she'd intervene, perhaps > Alphaks doesn't care any more, perhaps he's spending more time focusing on > the Hollow World now that his hated Alphatia is down there. Maybe I'll > just have to have him have an "accident".) :-) By that token, Nyx may take an interest in Morphail's situation and attempt to assist him in his goals. Perhaps an artifact or something can aid him in his attempts- offhand, I am reminded of the Blackstick (X11- Saga of the Shadowlord), whose powers deal with the undead. Perhaps even the Shadowlord himself may have some means at his disposal. (I seem to recall that he was sort of an unusual undead creature... sort of a Wraith/Lich). > Anywho, thanks for the ideas. (Sarcasm and all) :-) Anytime. ;) ------------------------------ From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 10:34:52 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos At 18:29 21-08-96 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Deathwatch wrote: > >> I'm looking for some background information of the ruins in karameikos. (I >> got the AD&D Boxed set). >> Can someone help me? > >Which ruins are those? (I don't own the AD&D boxed set, so if there is a >specific area of ruins mentioned therein, I'm not sure what they are). The book said something about ruins that are in those forests... >Offhand, I can recall a few different locations of ruins that are >mentioned specifically in various products: > >The ruins north of Threshold: Bargle the Infamous has a base here. Hmmm...don't know that one >The (former) ruins of Krakatos: Now home of the School of Magecraft. >More information is given in Dragon #203 (or is it #205). I think it is >#203, but the other issue number has information on the Barony of Halag >(formerly known as Fort Doom), post Black Eagle era (ie, AC 1012). Cool...have to get those atricles. >The ruins of Koriszegy Keep: Home to the Vampire Koriszegy, an ancient >Traladaran vampire. Don't know that one too >The ruins of the Lost Valley: (North of Rifflian, I think- on the border >'twixt Darokin & Karameikos). These ruins are home to the Outer World >remnants of the Hutaakan race, as well as a degenerate race of >Traladarans (all that inbreeding, don'tcha know). Hehehe...so Hutaakan live there? >The ruins of Xitaqa: Somewhere east of Kelvin (I think); Another ancient >city of the Hutaaka; this one's abandoned, though. > >These are the major ruins that I know of (I think you probably want to >know about Krakatos- check those Dragon articles. There was quite a bit >of stuff there in the past). There are doubtless countless other little >ruins around, legacies of both Hutaakan and (more likely) Traladaran >heroes of the Golden Age onwards. Maybe even some Nithian ruins >somewhere, if that's your taste, and times being what they are... > >> Also, what are the fees of the Schools of Magecraft (Glantri, Karameikos, >> Alphatian) and what does that school of psionics do? (Hear something about it) > >As for the Karameikan school, I believe this info is in the >aforementioned Dragon article (I know they at least have a 'Primer'- an >elementary spell book for students there; representing the most commonly >taught spells of levels 1-3). I think the old trail map (TM2) has some >info on the Alphatian school(s), though I don't think any costs are >mentioned. As for Glantri- I'm sure the info is in the GAZ, but I don't >have it with me just now. I don't have those GAZ and TM(Haven't seen one, actually). The book of that Karameikos boxed set has information of which those spells are, but that all...(Info about Terari is there too, but nothing about the school) >As far as Psionics go- I only have one of the AD&D Mystara books, but as >far as I know, they've never made Psionics a part of Mystara. I hope so...I don't like psionics ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri <fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:57:01 +-200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] ['Noids] Preliminary timeline >> > 961 A.C.- Kol IV is born in Kol. > >[Reply about Kol's number in the succession clipped for brevity's = sake.] > >DOH! Of course, that should be Kol XIV. I don't know where that X = went...=20 >I'll also make note of both his original name and the time of his name=20 >change when I update it. Wasn't Kol a shadow elf? I've read somewhere something about it = (probably in the Mystara timeline I've found in the list's homepage). It = could explain why he is good at magic (he will become a Glantri prince, = some years after 1000 AC, isn't he?). Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 04:24:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Kol the Shadowelf... On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Gabriele Ferri wrote: > Wasn't Kol a shadow elf? I've read somewhere something about it (probably in the Mystara timeline I've found in the list's homepage). It could explain why he is good at magic (he will become a Glantri prince, some years after 1000 AC, isn't he?). Oh, no!!! Not again!!! ;) Yes, according to the Glantri boxed set, Prince Kol XIV is indeed a shadowelf. ------------------------------ From: Ryan J Law & Barry A Law <rblaw@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:40:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lichdom Revisited > >2) Alphaks may take exception to his mucking about. Recall that Prince > >G-W is a vampire due to Alphaks' machinations. He promised to serve (or > >something) in exchange for immortality. (just goes to show that you > >shouldn't bargain with demons). Alphaks may view Prince G-W's decision as > >his attempt to regain his freedom, and the immortal may take steps to > >intervene... and Alphaks isn't known for his patience. > > I had forgotton about this one. (Actually being undead centric, Nyx is > much more common in my campaign world. Perhaps she'd intervene, perhaps > Alphaks doesn't care any more, perhaps he's spending more time focusing on > the Hollow World now that his hated Alphatia is down there. Maybe I'll > just have to have him have an "accident".) :-) Yes, but recall that in Wrath of the Immortals setting, when the meoter hit Darokin/Glantri border. According to that book, "...Alphaks, whose love of big explosions and mass destruction has finally gotten the better of him. He diverted the meteor from it's regular orbit and aimed it toward Darokin; the only reason it did not do even more damage was his desire to make the Glantrians (descendents, like Alphatians, of some of his ex-followers) suffer as much as possible.)" So make sure he is causeing at least a little of the problems in Glantri (and I suppose the Prince would be a prime source of that trouble. Alphaks probally be thrown into the Entopic seen in Glantri. As a Possible CRUEL effect and to throw a rench into your players gears, have Nyx and Alphaks (Nyx would probally be pissed that certian individuals have gained up aginst one of her movers and shakers in Glantri) decide to make a slight pack (recall the alliance between Hell and Alphaks in the Wraith of the Immortals) with Hell to give Prince G-W a rebirthing in a new body with all of his old knowledge and give him the ability to shift between the two bodies at will (and since it would be divine intervention no True Dwommer could even touch the ability)... All kinds of fun EVIL adventures can offspring from such a plot *evil grin*... -Ryan J Law rblaw@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 00:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Order of the Three Suns (was Penhaligon) On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Deathwatch queried >>4) The Order of the Three Suns. - Really nice. I'll take it :-) > > What's this? It's a knightly order in Penhaligon swearing fealty to Baroness (Lady) Arteris Penhaligon. See the Penhaligon Trilogy for details. It hasn't appeared anywhere else. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 00:00:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Lady Arteris Penhaligon (was Penhaligon) On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Ezio Pignatelli searched the depths of knowledge and brought forth the following bits of wisdom: >3) Trilogy: Since Flinn was a knight when Baron Penhaligon died, and since > this happened (B11) in 996, and -yet- since Flinn was banished for seven > years, the book should start not before 1003. I don't remember, was Flinn banished under Arturis or Arteris? > On the other hand, since > Arteris' cousin is going to be 40 years old inm the book, and since Arteris > is younger, the events are taking place _before_ 1009 AC. Arteris is 29 in AC1000, so she won't be 40 until AC1011. However, see below. > I disagree with the Lady/BAroness intepretation. I can't remember if I > am > talking about B12 or GAZ1, but I remember that Lady Penhaligon is > taking the > place of the old father since 4 years, but was not yet confirmed > in the title. Actually, GAZ1 says: "She is a 9th-level fighter; age 29.... [Penhaligon] was founded 30 years ago by Lord Arturus Penhaligon, a friend of Duke Stefan's. It is now ruled by his daughter, Lady Arteris Penhaligon, who was confirmed in her father's title upon his death four years ago." This sounds to me like he was never a baron. If she had been confirmed into the old baron's title, she would be a baroness. > This also because of her level (too low). I don't think the level requirement would apply when confirming an heir to a barony, only when granting a new one. Just imagine Duke (King) Karameikos thinking to himself, "Gee, I'd like to make Arteris a baroness so that she could follow in her father's footsteps, but she just doesn't fight well enough. I'll have to make her a landed lady." Somehow it doesn't seem quite right to me. > Since in the beginning of WoI she's still Lady, I guess she reach > level 12 (and the Barony) in 1004-1005 AC. According to the Karameikos Explorer's Guide (in the AD&D boxed set), she is still Lady Penhaligon and 9th level in AC1013. IIRC, she died when Penhaligon was destroyed so it would have to happened after that time. I haven't read "Dark Knight of Karameikos" yet. Is Penhaligon mentioned there? It's interesting to note that Dragon #186 did a preview of the Penhaligon Trilogy. The article notes, "Taking place just prior to the world-shattering events in the Wrath of the Immortals' boxed set, The Tainted Sword' does no irreversible damage to the landscape, though Heinrich established a few villages, orc encampments, and notable mountain peaks for the express purpose of destroying them." This, of course, puts the time prior to AC1004. It's a pity that the "no irreversible damage" idea wasn't carried through the rest of the trilogy. I guess the gist of it is that the author of the Penhaligon Trilogy didn't do his or her homework. Much of what is in there doesn't fit with cannon, and the destruction of Penhaligon didn't seem to fit in with the vision of Mystara's designers. Since it's impossible to fit everything in as written, a few changes have to be made. I suppose the best time to place the trilogy is AC1004. It would also be prudent to keep Baroness (Lady) Penhaligon alive when her town and castle are destroyed. That way she will can still be around in AC1013 if you need her. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Estlor <estlor@geocities.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 01:23:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos [whole of message snipped for space] > > >As far as Psionics go- I only have one of the AD&D Mystara books, but as > >far as I know, they've never made Psionics a part of Mystara. > > I hope so...I don't like psionics RED STEEL boxed set. It gives level limits for members of those races as psionics......sorry to burst that bubble. Estlor ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Swordmaking On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Fabrizio Paoli suggested >In real world medieval Europe certain towns were renowned for their swords >(e.g. the blades from Toledo, Spain), it could be interesting to have >something similar in the KW. Why stop with swords? There are numerous places in the GAZ series where a particular city or place was mentioned as known for making a particular item. Why don't we start by compiling a list of those and then expand on it? Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 18:34:46 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] Netbooks Are there any Mystara related netbooks? And where can you get them? ------------------------------ From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 18:34:04 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Kol the Shadowelf... At 04:24 24-08-96 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Gabriele Ferri wrote: > >> Wasn't Kol a shadow elf? I've read somewhere something about it (probably in the Mystara timeline I've found in the list's homepage). It could explain why he is good at magic (he will become a Glantri prince, some years after 1000 AC, isn't he?). > >Oh, no!!! Not again!!! ;) > >Yes, according to the Glantri boxed set, Prince Kol XIV is indeed a >shadowelf. Is that boxed set still for sale somewhere? ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 14:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Prince G-W and Thar I just have a quick observation to make. Doesn't the Rules Cyclopedia put a limit on the number of pawns that an undead liege can control? Also, isn't there a limit to the distance over which the liege can control the pawn? How would this change the relationship between Morphail and Thar? Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 14:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, "J." Ovard spewed forth: >That just won't work. I'm hearing talk about Drow, Duergar, Illithids... >I don't think so... Forgotten Realms, yeah, Greyhawk, maybe...Mystara, >no. [stepping up onto soap box] Why not? What if someone wanted to use the duergar information for the Modrigswerg dwarves? Personally, I use illithids in my campaign. Does that mean I can't call it Mystara? Saying that these things can not exist on Mystara because their origins are AD&D rather than OD&D, or from a non-Mystara campaign setting, is frightfully short-sighted. The only limit to what can appear on Mystara is the imagination of the DM and the players. What's wrong with having a small drow contingent find a gate into the depths of Mystara? What would happen if they made contact with the Shadow Elves? [climbing down from soap box] Sorry for the rant, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 14:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Ruins in Karameikos On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated (for the second time in as many weeks): >The ruins north of Threshold: Bargle the Infamous has a base here. He does?!? Where did you find that? Are you referring to that introductory adventure in one of the printings of the Basic Set (where Bargle is wanted for killing Aleena)? Threshold also has the ruins of an old mill on the north end of Fogor Isle. >The (former) ruins of Krakatos: Now home of the School of Magecraft. >More information is given in Dragon #203 (or is it #205). Try #207. >The ruins of Koriszegy Keep: Home to the Vampire Koriszegy, an ancient >Traladaran vampire. Information on Koriszegy Keep can be found in GAZ1. Another printing of the Basic Set had a "haunted keep" adventure. It belonged to the Rodemus family. The Expert set then placed the haunted keep where GAZ1 later placed Korizegy Keep. >The ruins of the Lost Valley: (North of Rifflian, I think- on the border >'twixt Darokin & Karameikos). Info on these ruins can be found in B10. >The ruins of Xitaqa: Somewhere east of Kelvin Xitaqa is also in B10. There is an old tomb in the Dymrak Forest near Rugalov. (See DDA4 for details.) It is "a crypt for a prince of an ancient people who once ruled this land;" probably either Nithian or Traladaran. Also, Kelvin was built on top of the ruins of Lavv. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:19:27 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos At 01:23 5-07-96 -0400, you wrote: >[whole of message snipped for space] >> >> >As far as Psionics go- I only have one of the AD&D Mystara books, but as >> >far as I know, they've never made Psionics a part of Mystara. >> >> I hope so...I don't like psionics > >RED STEEL boxed set. It gives level limits for members of those races >as psionics......sorry to burst that bubble. > >Estlor > > Damn...okay...I guess there are psionics then...well...have to get that psionics handbook then.... Deathwatch ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #194 ***************************** From ???@??? Wed Aug 28 11:23:32 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA10370; Mon, 26 Aug 1996 18:47:53 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA24378 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 Aug 1996 03:16:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 03:16:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199608260816.DAA24378@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #195 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 3133304135e46381955784078f721ba6 Status: RO mystara-digest Monday, 26 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 195 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:19:38 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Swordmaking At 08:26 25-08-96 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Fabrizio Paoli suggested > >>In real world medieval Europe certain towns were renowned for their swords >>(e.g. the blades from Toledo, Spain), it could be interesting to have >>something similar in the KW. > >Why stop with swords? There are numerous places in the GAZ series where a >particular city or place was mentioned as known for making a particular item. >Why don't we start by compiling a list of those and then expand on it? Great idea...too bad I can't help too much.... I don't have a GAZ, I only have the AD&D Karameikos boxed set, Mystaran Monsterous Compendium, Book of Facts 3 and Night of the Vampire adventure. Deathwatch ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The Member Registry Page is Up! Mystarans, Well, after a couple tedious hours of work, I have finished the Member Registry, which can be found through the List home page at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm A few notes... 1) I have removed almost all references to age. As the esteemed Mr. Leland pointed out to me, having ages instead of b-dayss would require me to updated the entries yearly. So, if you want to have your date of birth in your entry, drop me a line, and I'll add it. 2) I will update the entries for years playing RPG's, and years involved with Mystara every year at this date. 3) I checked all of the links, and they seem to work fine. Due to problems that would take too long to explain, I can not actually send mail through the mail links. They seem to work, but a person might want to double check them by sending themselves mail through them. 4) Due to time constraints, I may have messed up somewhere. Feel free to doublecheck your entry to make sure everything looks good. E-mail me with any corrections you wish to make. 5) Keep those entries coming! 6) Feel free to let me know about any additions or changes you wish to make in the future. Later... Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard <jovard@polarnet.com> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 13:59:11 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, "J." Ovard spewed forth: Spewed?... >>That just won't work. I'm hearing talk about Drow, Duergar, Illithids... >>I don't think so... Forgotten Realms, yeah, Greyhawk, maybe...Mystara, >>no. >[stepping up onto soap box] >Why not? What if someone wanted to use the duergar information for the >Modrigswerg dwarves? Personally, I use illithids in my campaign. Does that >mean I can't call it Mystara? I suppose I'd better respond to this...Of course you can call it Mystara. You can call it Mildew if you like...that's entirely up to you. >Saying that these things can not exist on Mystara because their origins are >AD&D rather than OD&D, or from a non-Mystara campaign setting, is frightfully >short-sighted. The only limit to what can appear on Mystara is the >imagination of the DM and the players. What's wrong with having a small >drow contingent find a gate into the depths of Mystara? What would happen >if they made contact with the Shadow Elves? Perhaps it would be wise not to assume so much about other people's comments. In no way did I mean you cannot use those things in your campaign. And about the rules system, when I even bother to use one (I prefer to use my immagination and common sense over charts and graphs), I usually alter it greatly, sometimes beyond recognition. I like Mystara for it's unique flavor and rich history. I think it's contrary to that flavor and history to use a generalized net book made primarily from Forgotten Realms material. OD&D or AD&D, Mystara is Mystara. I wouldn't mind a small group of Illithids or Drow in the Underdark, possibly arriving by a Spelljamming craft, but simply inserting them into Mystara as if they had always been there, as in another campaign world, would detract from what makes Mystara so great, and in turn, the purpose of this mailing list. Of course anyone may use whatever they wish in their own campaign, but for something for everyone like this, I think we should keep it true to Mystara. >[climbing down from soap box] >Sorry for the rant, - Likewise. J.Ovard jovard@polarnet.com ------------------------------ From: BerSchu@sagor.prima.ruhr.de (Bernhard Schumacher) Date: 26 Aug 1996 00:28:00 +0200 Subject: [Mystara] second saving throw by kopru ## Originalempfaenger: mystara-l@io.com Hello Mystara-DM's I have a problem with the mystarian Kopru. First the history: A H-Elf with a neutral good or neutral alignment (I don't know the exact alignment in the moment) is playing in my party. He is charmed by a kopru. The other PCs don't know anything about the charm. This isn't the real problem. This charakter has a key role to trick a black dragon. The dragon is an ally of the kopru. The kopru knows all the details to trick the drgon, by the charm. Perhaps you have seen the problem. The kopru is trying to trick the party, now It uses the H-Elf to betray the party. Now my questions: 1. Does the H-Elf get a second charm-resistence roll? 2. Does the H-Elf get a second saving throw? 2.1. Which modifiers should have the saving throw? C U Kostarsus - -- ## CrossPoint v3.11 ## ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, J. Ovard wrote: > >>That just won't work. I'm hearing talk about Drow, Duergar, Illithids... > >>I don't think so... Forgotten Realms, yeah, Greyhawk, maybe...Mystara, > >>no. Just for the record... Greyhawk, most definitely. Illthids were always a part of GH, and the other two originated in GH-based modules. The original Drow (D1-3) series, as well as the battle with Lolth (Q1) were all Greyhawk adventures. > >Saying that these things can not exist on Mystara because their origins are > >AD&D rather than OD&D, or from a non-Mystara campaign setting, is frightfully > >short-sighted. The only limit to what can appear on Mystara is the > >imagination of the DM and the players. What's wrong with having a small > >drow contingent find a gate into the depths of Mystara? What would happen > >if they made contact with the Shadow Elves? > > And about the rules system, when I even bother to use one (I prefer to > use my immagination and common sense over charts and graphs), I am sure you don't mean to imply that people who use rules in their RPG's lack imagination and common sense, right? > I usually alter it greatly, sometimes beyond recognition. I like > Mystara for it's unique flavor and rich history. I think it's contrary to > that flavor and history to use a generalized net book made primarily > from Forgotten Realms material. OD&D or AD&D, Mystara is Mystara. From what I have seen from the net.book, there is nothing in it that makes it Realms specific. Drow and Duegar, as I note above, or not of Realms origin. And whether or not it is contrary to Mystara's flavor is an opinion. To me, whther or not certain beasties muck about in some caves is not a large factor in the "feel" of Mystara. It is about the countries and people that have been presented, and their interaction. The rich history. I just don't see adding Mind Flayers to the underdark as some sort of overhaul. They tend to stay deep, and live in small groups. Now, as a counter-example, I feel adding an appreciable quantity of Drow to the setting _would_ alter it's flavor. The Shadow Elves are set up as the lords of a large section of the underdark, and to toss the Drow into the picture would alter this dynamic. Not to mention Drow have been done to death. For me, they are a cliche. In contrast, I don't see Illithids or Duergar this way. > I wouldn't mind a small group of Illithids or Drow in the Underdark, > possibly arriving by a Spelljamming craft, Wouldn't adding Spelljamming to Mystara change its flavor? Also, Mind Flayers can Plane Shift at will. In a version of Mystara that is a full part of the AD&D Planescape/Spelljammer multiverse, it is far from unreasonable to assume that mind flayers found it long ago, and "colonized." > ... but simply inserting them into Mystara as if they had always been > there, as in another campaign world, would detract from what makes > Mystara so great, Again, this an opinion not all share. I don't see certain campaign additions as any sort of detraction. On the contrary, I see some of it as an enrichment. This is just my opinion, though, I certainly wouldn't force it on others. > and in turn, the purpose of this mailing list. Sorry, but this is simply not true. This list is not based on what any one person feels is appropriate, except for the administrator, and the decisions he makes are subject to alteration by a democratic process (as shown by the change in the fluff rules). > Of course anyone may use whatever they wish in their own campaign, but > for something for everyone like this, I think we should keep it true to > Mystara. But what is "true to Mystara"? Who decides whether or not something detracts or enriches the setting? Should we not allow people to discuss on the list an aspect of Mystara they find enriching, because others find it detracting to the setting? Besides, the net.book project manager posted to the list because he wanted, as I have said many times, _Mystara_specific_matertial_! He was a member of the list before he started the project, and has said he is a Mystara fan, using Mystara for his games. Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kodos ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 18:05:20 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark My opinion on the recent Underdark debate is that a project that is both spanning the scope of many game worlds and is using non-standardly-Mystaran creatures is pushing the envelope of relevance. My point in posting this, though, is rather to suggest that instead of arguing over what does and doesn't belong, which is of limited utility since it's all very subjective as to what enriches and what detracts, that if/when there is significant dissatisfaction with something being done (or not done), that we do what we did with the Fluff situation, have a vote. I don't know if this is big enough of a thing to warrant such an action, but I'd just like to suggest to Leroy that if there seems to be significant uproar about something that he consider doing for it what was done for Fluff. I don't really care to see fluff on the list and voted accordingly, but I am happy nonetheless that we went about it the way we did, because it was fair and democratic. So, in deference to the subjectivity of it all, if people are put off enough by something, perhaps they can ask Leroy to consider holding a vote? Not asking for a vote about this but just making a general suggestion, /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 19:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: [stuff on calling a vote, plus references to the fluff thing snipped] > So, in deference to the subjectivity of it all, if people are put off enough > by something, perhaps they can ask Leroy to consider holding a vote? > > Not asking for a vote about this but just making a general suggestion, Dave, I am, in all honesty, not juts pointing a finger here, but the problem so far has been with people blowing this out of proportion, not with the net.book posting themselves. I went back and perused the digests, starting with #190, the one in which the announcement was first made. And since that announcement, only _two_ people have posted any sort of grievance over this. Two! Most people on the list either think the project is a fine idea, or not a big of enough problem to get worked up over. I have not recieved any private e-mail complaints on this. So far only three things on the project have been posted, and only one of those was of considerable length. The project manager has since stated that he expects to post short updates every two weeks or so. Finally, I simply don't understand how anyone can consider a net.book From ???@??? Wed Aug 28 11:23:32 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA10370; Mon, 26 Aug 1996 18:47:53 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA24378 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 Aug 1996 03:16:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 03:16:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199608260816.DAA24378@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #195 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 3133304135e46381955784078f721ba6 Status: RO that could have a bunch of Mystara-specific stuff in it to be inappropriate to a Mystara mailing list. The editor has said that he posts stuff on the book here because he _wants_ Mystara material. If anyone else has a problem with the current situation, feel free to post, either to the list, or through private e-mail. But please, let's not create a problem were one does not seem to exist. Is a short, weekly update on a project that could come to be Mystara-relavent really a problem? Is people responding to such posts with Mystara-related questions a problem? Leroy Van Camp III owner-mystara-l@io.com van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MST3K ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi <a122286@proffa.cc.tut.fi> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 07:22:39 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Prince G-W and Thar > I just have a quick observation to make. Doesn't the Rules Cyclopedia put a > limit on the number of pawns that an undead liege can control? Also, > isn't there a limit to the distance over which the liege can control the > pawn? How would this change the relationship between Morphail and Thar? Yes. But a undead pawn can hawe pawns of his own, who are thus pawns of his liege too, but do not count against the limit of the overliege. So an undead liege can in fact have unlimited amount of pawns, distriputed in an exact 'net' or tree (kind of like the net :) As for thar, I wouldnt say. I have not yet bought the fact of him being an vampire. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard <jovard@polarnet.com> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 21:30:35 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaren Underdark On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, J. Ovard wrote: > >>That just won't work. I'm hearing talk about Drow, Duergar, Illithids= ... > >>I don't think so... Forgotten Realms, yeah, Greyhawk, maybe...Mystara= , > >>no. > Just for the record... Greyhawk, most definitely. Illthids were >always a part of GH, and the other two originated in GH-based modules. >The original Drow (D1-3) series, as well as the battle with Lolth (Q1) >were all Greyhawk adventures. That's fine, but in no way affects what I'm saying (I mean how you use = this against me later in the letter). > >Saying that these things can not exist on Mystara because their origin= s are > >AD&D rather than OD&D, or from a non-Mystara campaign setting, is frig= htfully > >short-sighted. The only limit to what can appear on Mystara is the > >imagination of the DM and the players. What's wrong with having a sma= ll > >drow contingent find a gate into the depths of Mystara? What would = happen > >if they made contact with the Shadow Elves? > > And about the rules system, when I even bother to use one (I prefer = to > use my immagination and common sense over charts and graphs), > I am sure you don't mean to imply that people who use rules in their >RPG's lack imagination and common sense, right? I'm insulted you would say that. Of course not! > I usually alter it greatly, sometimes beyond recognition. I like > Mystara for it's unique flavor and rich history. I think it's contrary = to > that flavor and history to use a generalized net book made primarily > from Forgotten Realms material. OD&D or AD&D, Mystara is Mystara. > From what I have seen from the net.book, there is nothing in it that >makes it Realms specific. Drow and Duegar, as I note above, or not of >Realms origin. Fine then, Realms and Greyhawk. > And whether or not it is contrary to Mystara's flavor is an opinion.= >To me, whther or not certain beasties muck about in some caves is not = a >large factor in the "feel" of Mystara. It is about the countries and >people that have been presented, and their interaction. The rich histor= y. > I just don't see adding Mind Flayers to the underdark as some sort = of >overhaul. They tend to stay deep, and live in small groups. > Now, as a counter-example, I feel adding an appreciable quantity of >Drow to the setting _would_ alter it's flavor. The Shadow Elves are set >up as the lords of a large section of the underdark, and to toss the Dro= w >into the picture would alter this dynamic. > Not to mention Drow have been done to death. For me, they are a >cliche. In contrast, I don't see Illithids or Duergar this way. Whether you meant to or not, you've only reinforced what I was trying to say in the first place, of course I wouldn't have a problem with a few Mind Flayers. It was the Communities of Drow and such that were implied that would be the problem, just as you said. > I wouldn't mind a small group of Illithids or Drow in the Underdark, > possibly arriving by a Spelljamming craft, > Wouldn't adding Spelljamming to Mystara change its flavor? Do I detect a note of sarcasm? > Also, Mind Flayers can Plane Shift at will. In a version of Mystara >that is a full part of the AD&D Planescape/Spelljammer multiverse, it = is >far from unreasonable to assume that mind flayers found it long ago, and >"colonized." As I said, a few mind flayers wouldn't be a problem. They are capable of that kind of travel. However, they should be done in a manner that would make them optional-not integral parts to the underdark. > ... but simply inserting them into Mystara as if they had always been > there, as in another campaign world, would detract from what makes > Mystara so great, > Again, this an opinion not all share. I don't see certain campaign >additions as any sort of detraction. On the contrary, I see some of it = as >an enrichment. > This is just my opinion, though, I certainly wouldn't force it on >others. Exactly. That should be a personal choice by a DM. The choice should not be made for them. > and in turn, the purpose of this mailing list. > Sorry, but this is simply not true. This list is not based on what >any one person feels is appropriate, except for the administrator, and = the >decisions he makes are subject to alteration by a democratic process (as >shown by the change in the fluff rules). You took what I said out of context. I simply meant that If the integrity of Mystara was compromised, and with this being a Mystara list and all... > Of course anyone may use whatever they wish in their own campaign, but > for something for everyone like this, I think we should keep it true = to > Mystara. > But what is "true to Mystara"? Who decides whether or not something >detracts or enriches the setting? Up 'till now, that would be TSR. > Should we not allow people to discuss >on the list an aspect of Mystara they find enriching, because others fin= d >it detracting to the setting? Of course, no one's stopping them. > Besides, the net.book project manager posted to the list because he >wanted, as I have said many times, _Mystara_specific_matertial_! He was= a >member of the list before he started the project, and has said he is a >Mystara fan, using Mystara for his games. Granted. *snip* On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: [stuff on calling a vote, plus references to the fluff thing snipped] > So, in deference to the subjectivity of it all, if people are put off = enough > by something, perhaps they can ask Leroy to consider holding a vote? > > Not asking for a vote about this but just making a general suggestion, > Dave, I am, in all honesty, not juts pointing a finger here, If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... > but the >problem so far has been with people blowing this out of proportion, not >with the net.book posting themselves. > I went back and perused the digests, starting with #190, the one in >which the announcement was first made. And since that announcement, onl= y >_two_ people have posted any sort of grievance over this. Two! Most >people on the list either think the project is a fine idea, or not a big >of enough problem to get worked up over. I have not recieved any privat= e >e-mail complaints on this. I could, frankly, care less about the net book. It has no lasting signifigance. I was simply voicing my opinion. I'm not trying to force = anyone to agree with me, just let them no what I think. It would have ended at that, except in response to my post, people attacked my character and my intelligence. I'm not one of these steriotypical "net jerks" who simply insult people if they can't think of anything better to say. I had a reason for what I said, though I admit it could've been put across more constructively. But instead of taking what I said seriously, I was mocked and ridiculed and accused of being closed- minded and blindly following the "old rules". Even when I tried to explain that I didn't, I was attacked. Now, I don't always agree with other people's opinion on what's posted to this list, but I don't go off insulting them. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they're an unthinking brute. It seems a little hypocritical, no? > So far only three things on the project have been posted, and only = one >of those was of considerable length. The project manager has since stat= ed >that he expects to post short updates every two weeks or so. > Finally, I simply don't understand how anyone can consider a net.boo= k >that could have a bunch of Mystara-specific stuff in it to be >inappropriate to a Mystara mailing list. The editor has said that he >posts stuff on the book here because he _wants_ Mystara material. And that's what I had intended to do. > If anyone else has a problem with the current situation, feel free = to >post, either to the list, or through private e-mail. But please, let's >not create a problem were one does not seem to exist. > Is a short, weekly update on a project that could come to be >Mystara-relavent really a problem? Is people responding to such posts >with Mystara-related questions a problem? Of course not. I don't know what kind of people you're used to dealing with, but I'm not that stubborn. And that we've gotten so far off the subject, I'm sorry to have taken up your precious time with my opinion. Now, let's step off the soap box and take a bow. Anything further should be discussed off the list. J.Ovard jovard@polarnet.com ------------------------------ From: Estlor <estlor@geocities.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 02:45:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos > >[whole of message snipped for space] > >> > >> >As far as Psionics go- I only have one of the AD&D Mystara books, but as > >> >far as I know, they've never made Psionics a part of Mystara. > >> > >> I hope so...I don't like psionics > > > >RED STEEL boxed set. It gives level limits for members of those races > >as psionics......sorry to burst that bubble. > Damn...okay...I guess there are psionics then...well...have to get that > psionics handbook then.... Well, there is always the old DM's "Not in my Campaign!!" rule : ) "Peace is good for buisness. Dead men don't buy your goods." ------------------------------ From: Estlor <estlor@geocities.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 02:53:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark [whole of message snipped cause it was getting long] Alrighty, time to interject my opinion (not that anyone cares). I don't like using "Drow" in MYSTARA, since they are born and raised for Forgotten Realms only, but I did find a good way to work "Dark" elves into MYSTARA. Here goes: Dark elves stem from the same explosion that brought about the creation of Shadow Elves. The main difference was the dark elves were in closer proximity to the blast than the other elves, and therefore had more damage done to their genetic codes. This damage accounts for the abnormal hair/skin/eye pigmentation (heck, there has to be some good reason to put in black skinned, red eyed, white haired elves). This damage also accounts for the strange magic-like effects all dark elves can produce. These effects are meerely modifications of the natural radiation of the planet. Further, being in proximity to this radiation is now required for a dark elf to continue to live, which explains why they do not visit the surface. Lastly, we can account for their evil ways by saying that they have a consuming desire to kill all other elves who were spared their fate, including the shadow elves. Well, what do you think? This is a logical explination that turns "Drow" into a MYSTARA native race and further explains why no one has heard of them (Okay, consider this my contribution to the book.) Estlor ------------------------------ From: "Alexander T. Knapp" <aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 08:03:00 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Netbooks > Are there any Mystara related netbooks? And where can you get them? Not that I'm aware of, but there is a Net.Books mailing list which you might be interested in asking: Majordomo@lists.teleport.com subscribe netbooks-l <name> >From my explorations on the 'Net, we're the only concentrated group of Mystarans around - if there is to be one made, it would probably have to come from us. Just out of curiosity, what would people like to see included? Alex. - - Alexander T. Knapp aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina PGP Public Key Available ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #195 ***************************** From ???@??? Wed Aug 28 11:23:37 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA11564; Tue, 27 Aug 1996 06:19:49 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA28659 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:31:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:31:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199608261931.OAA28659@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #196 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2927a9192f9623c5cbfb4c3dea2d0b33 Status: RO mystara-digest Monday, 26 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 196 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Estlor wrote: > I don't like using "Drow" in MYSTARA, since they are born and raised for > Forgotten Realms only, but I did find a good way to work "Dark" elves > into MYSTARA. Here goes: I posted this in an earlier reply, but it is worth repeating... The Drow are not a race that originated with the Realms. The first major appearance of the Drow was in G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King, an adventure module set in Greyhawk. The G series of modules lead into D1-3, the Drow series, also set in Greyhawk. The final module in the series was Q1 Queeen of the Demon Web Pits. This takes place in the Abyss, but is a continuation of the series. These came out long before FR was ever an official setting. owner-mystara-l@io.com Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kodos ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Mystara] This Underdark Thing... On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, J. Ovard wrote: > On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, J. Ovard wrote: > > >>That just won't work. I'm hearing talk about Drow, Duergar, Illithids... > > >>I don't think so... Forgotten Realms, yeah, Greyhawk, maybe...Mystara, > > >>no. > > > Just for the record... Greyhawk, most definitely. Illthids were > >always a part of GH, and the other two originated in GH-based modules. > >The original Drow (D1-3) series, as well as the battle with Lolth (Q1) > >were all Greyhawk adventures. > > That's fine, but in no way affects what I'm saying (I mean how you use this > against me later in the letter). I am confused here... when do I "use" it against you? Sorry, but I feel someone has taken my replies a bit too personally. I was making a general point on the origin of Drow and Duergar, because the information given implied a lack of knowledge on the subject. It is not an attack here, nor is it later. > > And about the rules system, when I even bother to use one (I prefer to > > use my immagination and common sense over charts and graphs), > > > I am sure you don't mean to imply that people who use rules in their > >RPG's lack imagination and common sense, right? > > I'm insulted you would say that. Of course not! This is why I asked, instead of stated. There is no reason to get insulted; I do not know you well enough to determine what you meant by the question, so I asked. Now that you answered, I can move on. [some stuff on drow and illithids on mystara snipped] > Whether you meant to or not, you've only reinforced what I was trying > to say in the first place, of course I wouldn't have a problem with a > few Mind Flayers. It was the Communities of Drow and such that were > implied that would be the problem, just as you said. I am not so much as enforcing your ideas, as agreeing with a portion. For all intents and purposes, the Shadow Elves are the Mystara version of Drow. They certainly have a different feel and tone, but I am sure they were created to bank on an established, popular concept (elves underground.) The Illithids, on the other hand, have no Mystara counterpart, nor is there anything about the Mystara underdark that prevents their existance. So, adding Illithids does not, IMHO, detract form the setting. Rather, it enriches it. > > Wouldn't adding Spelljamming to Mystara change its flavor? > > Do I detect a note of sarcasm? No, it is a direct question, with a hint of irony. Do you feel Spelljamming detracts or enriches the Mystara setting? > As I said, a few mind flayers wouldn't be a problem. They are capable > of that kind of travel. However, they should be done in a manner that > would make them optional-not integral parts to the underdark. I am confused here. What do you mean by "integral"? We are talking about a net.book. It is certainly not an "official" product. No one is required to make use of it. I guess I just don't understand what you mean here. > > Again, this an opinion not all share. I don't see certain campaign > >additions as any sort of detraction. On the contrary, I see some of it as > >an enrichment. > > This is just my opinion, though, I certainly wouldn't force it on > >others. > > Exactly. That should be a personal choice by a DM. > The choice should not be made for them. Of course, but I don't quite see how this is relavent to the discussion at hand. No choices are being made for people about what they must or must not add to their campaign. > > and in turn, the purpose of this mailing list. > > > Sorry, but this is simply not true. This list is not based on what > >any one person feels is appropriate, except for the administrator, and the > >decisions he makes are subject to alteration by a democratic process (as > >shown by the change in the fluff rules). > > You took what I said out of context. I simply meant that If the > integrity of Mystara was compromised, and with this being a Mystara > list and all... I guess I am going to have to do it again, because... Who decides whether the "integrity" of the setting is compromised? Who makes these kinbds of decisions? Maybe I am missing your point on this part. I don't see how I took things out of context. > > But what is "true to Mystara"? Who decides whether or not something > >detracts or enriches the setting? > > Up 'till now, that would be TSR. I really have to disagree with this, at least how I read it. TSR doesn't have the ability to make objective decisions on what enriches or detracts from Mystara. Only individuals can do this, and only on a subjective basis. TSR puts out a product that they "feel" enriches the setting. It is up to individual people to decide whether this is true or not. "Enriches" and "detracts" are opinions, not facts. > On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > > [stuff on calling a vote, plus references to the fluff thing snipped] > > > So, in deference to the subjectivity of it all, if people are put off enough > > by something, perhaps they can ask Leroy to consider holding a vote? > > > > Not asking for a vote about this but just making a general suggestion, > > > Dave, I am, in all honesty, not juts pointing a finger here, > > If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... I wrote the above to indicate that I don't feel that Dave is the only person involved with this, that he is not some lone gunmen causin all of the list's problems. He posted because he felt there was a problem. I was simply pointing out that there really is no problem. > > but the > >problem so far has been with people blowing this out of proportion, not > >with the net.book posting themselves. > > I went back and perused the digests, starting with #190, the one in > >which the announcement was first made. And since that announcement, only > >_two_ people have posted any sort of grievance over this. Two! Most > >people on the list either think the project is a fine idea, or not a big > >of enough problem to get worked up over. I have not recieved any private > >e-mail complaints on this. > > I could, frankly, care less about the net book. It has no lasting > signifigance. I was simply voicing my opinion. I'm not trying to force > anyone to agree with me, just let them no what I think. It would have > ended at that, except in response to my post, people attacked my > character and my intelligence. Again, I have to say... I think you are taking my posts too personally. You say that this is not about the net.book. But this is all I am posting on, as well as to what is or is not appropriate to the list. I did not attack your opinions. I am not sure where you get this. My postings are a bit blunt, but they certainly are not attacks. Where, exactly, do I attack opinions? You come forward and say that you do not feel certain aspects of the net.book are appropriate to the list. All I did was come forward and say that this is not a universal opinion, that some people, including myself, feel much of that work _is_ appropriate. That what you feel is the "flavor" and "integretity" of Mystara is not the same for all. I don't feel your opinions are invalid. I am saying they are one set within a spectrum. > I'm not one of these steriotypical "net jerks" who simply insult people > if they can't think of anything better to say. I had a reason for what I > said, though I admit it could've been put across more constructively. > But instead of taking what I said seriously, I was mocked and ridiculed > and accused of being closed- minded and blindly following the "old > rules". I agree, there was a post, from another, that did seem a bit harsh towards you. But I feel I have been fairly straight forward with my questions and answers. I am not attacking anybody, and I would be more than willing to take a look at any evidence to the contrary. > Even when I tried to explain that I didn't, I was attacked. Now, > I don't always agree with other people's opinion on what's posted to > this list, but I don't go off insulting them. Just because you don't > agree with someone doesn't mean they're an unthinking brute. It seems a > little hypocritical, no? I assume this is aimed at me. Care to clarify your point? Did I ever insult you? > And that we've gotten so far off the subject, I'm sorry to have taken > up your precious time with my opinion. Now, let's step off the > soap box and take a bow. Anything further should be discussed off > the list. Sorry, but it is not quite that easy. You cannot expect to make accusations, even minor ones (Such as me insulting your intelligence or opinions) in public, then expect all replies to be in private. My intention is not to turn this into a flame war, or have it end in bad feelings. I certainly don't want anyone to interpret this as The Administrator tossing his word around like it was scripture, because he can. I was simply trying to say that one opinion does not equate to a dictum. That what is appropriate to the list, or to the setting, is a subjective thing. That's all. Not to insult anyone, or their opinions. owner-mystara-l@io.com Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kodos ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 04:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Ruins in Karameikos On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Deathwatch replied: >>> I'm looking for some background information of the ruins in karameikos. >>>(I >>>got the AD&D Boxed set). >> >>Which ruins are those? > >The book said something about ruins that are in those forests... Ahhhhhh, those ruins. :) If you're referring to the short blurb on the bottom of page 12, that's there to give the DM poetic liscense to place ruins wherever they are needed for an adventure (as if a DM needed to have poetic liscense granted :) ). Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 05:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [none] Subject: Psionics on Mystara On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Deathwatch responded with: >>> I don't like psionics >> >>RED STEEL boxed set. It gives level limits for members of those races >>as psionics......sorry to burst that bubble. > >Damn...okay...I guess there are psionics then...well...have to get that >psionics handbook then.... That's not necessarily the case. I've been running my Mystara campaign for 4-1/2 years now and my characters have never been west of Lake Amsorak. The only psionics they have seen have been NPC's from other worlds. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 05:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Net.Book On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Deathwatch bombarded the Mystara Mailing List with: From ???@??? Wed Aug 28 11:23:37 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA11564; Tue, 27 Aug 1996 06:19:49 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA28659 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:31:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:31:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199608261931.OAA28659@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #196 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2927a9192f9623c5cbfb4c3dea2d0b33 Status: RO >Are there any Mystara related netbooks? And where can you get them? The only one I know of is on MPGN. I think the address is ftp.mpgn.com by telnet or ftp//ftp.mpgn.com/ on the WWW. It's very AD&D specific, and tries to put Mystara races and classes into "Combat and Tactics" and "Skills and Powers" terms. The author seems very opinionated about how Mysara should and should not be run, a real turn-off for me (no offense Estlor). It would be nice to see a net.book with input from the mailing list similar to the MOrient project. Just my 2 kopecs, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 02:52:41 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] This Underdark Thing... > I wrote the above to indicate that I don't feel that Dave is the only >person involved with this, that he is not some lone gunmen causin all of >the list's problems. He posted because he felt there was a problem. I >was simply pointing out that there really is no problem. I assume it wasn't meant as such, but the first sentence suggests to me that I am, while not the lone cause, a cause of problems on this list. If this is indeed the case I'd be grateful if someone explained to me how I am causing a problem so that I can take measures to be a better citizen here. I still feel there is a problem here, but not that of the net.book per se, which I think I made clear (that I do not think it is a problem). I think the problem is one of attitudes and hostile feelings being exchanged here that began with the opinions about the net.book. Kind regards, /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 04:15:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ruins in Karameikos On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > >The ruins north of Threshold: Bargle the Infamous has a base here. > > He does?!? Where did you find that? Are you referring to that introductory > adventure in one of the printings of the Basic Set (where Bargle is wanted > for killing Aleena)? Threshold also has the ruins of an old mill on the > north end of Fogor Isle. Yes. These are those selfsame ruins, but they are also mentioned in the Blue Box Expert set (revised), in the Campaign section, where Threshold and Specularum are discussed in detail. There is also an arrow on the Threshold map pointing north saying "to ruins". ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri <fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:59:27 +-200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] second saving throw by kopru >Now my questions: >1. Does the H-Elf get a second charm-resistence roll? >2. Does the H-Elf get a second saving throw? >2.1. Which modifiers should have the saving throw? Well, I don't have my manuals with me, but if you are playing OD&D, = there should be something about the charme (the mages' spell) in the = Basic set's Player Handbook (or was it in the Expert set? I cannot = remember...). Maybe your can also look in the X1 module (you've taken = the kopru from there, haven't you?). If you are playing AD&D, maybe there is something in the first part of = the Player's Handbook (when Wisdom and Intelligence are explained) or = you also could look at the mages' spell Charm: there must be a chart = based on the victim's Intelligence or Wisdom. If you don't find any rule at all, I suggest you to let the PC have a = saving throw every month/week/day depending on his Intelligence or when = the kopru want him to do something which isn't natural to him (something = evil if the PC is good, and so on...) I hope all this will help you! See you... Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 04:12:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Prince G-W and Thar On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > I just have a quick observation to make. Doesn't the Rules Cyclopedia put a > limit on the number of pawns that an undead liege can control? Also, > isn't there a limit to the distance over which the liege can control the > pawn? How would this change the relationship between Morphail and Thar? I may be mistaken, but I don't think that the Liege/Pawn rules from the Cyclopedia apply to vampires/nosferatu and their "spawn" (ie, vampires that they create). I think the rules are there to cover those times when Undead attempt to take over other, 'free-willed' undead. (I use free-willed in quotes as there are some undead- zombies, skeletons- who aren't sentient enough to really have free will, but can remain independent of a controller... does that make sense?) In other words, Lich-Lord A spots a whole passel o' zombies sent by a rival necromancer (who is unaware of Lich Lord A's true nature). Laughing maniacally at his foe's stupidity, Lich Lord A easily dominates the zombies and sics them right back on his foe, who is horribly torn to pieces by his former pawns. ------------------------------ From: ZDFY66B@prodigy.com (MR JOSEPH M GERBER) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 09:26:36, -0500 Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark Sir George Anonymous wrote: >What's wrong with having a small drow contingent find a gate into the >depths of Mystara? What would happen if they made contact with the >Shadow Elves? They would probably way something like "Thank you so much for building this wonderful city for us." Referring, of course, to the City of the Stars, which they would try to annex. Joe Gerber ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:13:14 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Swordmaking At 08.26 25/08/96 -0400, Sir George Anonymous wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Fabrizio Paoli suggested > >>In real world medieval Europe certain towns were renowned for their swords >>(e.g. the blades from Toledo, Spain), it could be interesting to have >>something similar in the KW. > >Why stop with swords? There are numerous places in the GAZ series where a >particular city or place was mentioned as known for making a particular item. >Why don't we start by compiling a list of those and then expand on it? > Finally someone answered to my mail ! :-) Your idea is a very interesting one, so let's start compiling the list... You can start with Karameikos, I'll do Darokin then we'll move to other places. If someone else is interested just pick a place, look at that Gaz and mail the list. Obviously if a place is renowned for making a particular item, that item should have some particular bonus in game terms: a sword made in Fortress Island may be +1 to hit, a rope from Akesoli may be stronger than other ropes, wine from Averoigne may be tastier and more expensive... or only more expensive :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:02:05 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Prince G-W and Thar At 04.12 26/08/96 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > >> I just have a quick observation to make. Doesn't the Rules Cyclopedia put a >> limit on the number of pawns that an undead liege can control? Also, >> isn't there a limit to the distance over which the liege can control the >> pawn? How would this change the relationship between Morphail and Thar? > >I may be mistaken, but I don't think that the Liege/Pawn rules from the >Cyclopedia apply to vampires/nosferatu and their "spawn" (ie, vampires >that they create). > >I think the rules are there to cover those times when Undead attempt to >take over other, 'free-willed' undead. (I use free-willed in quotes as >there are some undead- zombies, skeletons- who aren't sentient enough to >really have free will, but can remain independent of a controller... does >that make sense?) > Actually those rules (page 217-218 of RC) apply also to undead created by other undead by slaying a living creature, in fact those rules say that this may force the liege to release other existing pawns (those with the highest HD are released first). The maximum number of pawns HD that a liege can control is twice his HD, but, as Anias Pasi pointed out, he can create a sort of a net of pawns and lieges. The maximum range of control is 24 miles per HD of a liege, i.e. 672 miles for Price G-W, i.e. 84 hex. and that's enough to cover the whole Broken Lands from his castle at Igorov... and maybe enough to follow Thar in his travels after WotI (I must check my Trail Maps, but it looks as G-W is dreadingly powerful...). Besides Morphail is also High Master of Necromancy, so he can Control Undead (a number of HD < or = his level) up to 40 Km. away, but his control lasts only until the next full moon. Never realized Morphail was _so_ powerful, perhaps I made a mistake.... ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Leroy Van Camp III <van891@uidaho.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] This Underdark Thing... First, I want to step forward and say that it was never my intention to come across as insulting anyone's opinions. Looking back over my posts, I don't see they could be taken this way, but appearantly they have been. And for this, I apologize Further, I want to say I have only one intention with these posts: to settle any problems with the list, not to debate the validity of opinions. I want to lay to rest this ordeal so the list can continue. Now... On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: > > I wrote the above to indicate that I don't feel that Dave is the only > >person involved with this, that he is not some lone gunmen causin all of > >the list's problems. He posted because he felt there was a problem. I > >was simply pointing out that there really is no problem. > > I assume it wasn't meant as such, but the first sentence suggests to > me that I am, while not the lone cause, a cause of problems on this list. > If this is indeed the case I'd be grateful if someone explained to me how I > am causing a problem so that I can take measures to be a better citizen here. Here we go, in a blunt fasion... Dave, you were causing problems. Despite the fact only you and one other person seemed to have any grievance over this net.book, you stepped forward with a post that blew the whole situation out of proportion. Call a vote? Why would this even need to be discussed when only two people care? Now, before you carve my name into the Jerk Tablet... The reason I initially refrained from wording my posts in the above manner is because I believe you had good intentions. And the actual "problem" was quite small. I am not mad, do not have negative thoughts on this, because you seemd to be authentically concerned about the well being of the list. And I cannot fault you for that. I don't feel you, or Mr. Ovard, had any malicous intent. I did not wish to step forward with a post worded like the above paragraph because I do not wish there to be ill will between me and any of the subscribers. And, hopefully, with my explanation, there won't be. > I still feel there is a problem here, but not that of the net.book > per se, which I think I made clear (that I do not think it is a problem). I > think the problem is one of attitudes and hostile feelings being exchanged > here that began with the opinions about the net.book. I, personally, have no hostile feelings. I am frustrated about all this, but I am not mad. And, for anyone who has hostile feelings towards me, all I can say is that all I wanted to do was clear up the situation with the net.book, and with what is appropriate for the list. Nothing else. I don't have an attitude on the situation. Never did. If my posts came across that way, it was not intentional. owner-mystara-l@io.com Leroy Van Camp III van891@uidaho.edu - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kodos ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #196 ***************************** From ???@??? Wed Aug 28 11:23:42 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA02403; Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:48:37 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA09049 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:28:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:28:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199608271028.FAA09049@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #197 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: f9948d90a45605d291a73a0cf4c9e350 mystara-digest Tuesday, 27 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 197 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Keyser <davidk@Synopsys.COM> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:17:51 -0700 Subject: [Mystara] Penhalgion Trilogy I did find one small reference to the Penhalgion Trilogy in the boxed adventure Hail the Heroes. The PCs are doing research in the library of the Magician's Guild in Mirros. They are trying to pinpoint the location of some ruins near Threshold where an artifact may be buried. They find a few relevant blurbs in different books. I am going on memory, but one of these clues was in a book whose author was Johanna Menhir(may be misspelled) who was the heroine in the Penhalgion Trilogy. The blurb is nothing but a description of Threshold as a rider approaches it from the south, but after the quote, the module notes that it is unclear whether the author is writing about Karameikos in the distant future, or whether it is just a work of fiction. That gave me the excuse to throw out all the total crap that came out of that trilogy. I made these books a work of fiction written in Mystara about 1003 AC, and loosely based on some actual events that did happen. For example, the village of Bywater did exist, but was destroyed by the great green dragon (Argosyl) who resides in the Dymrak Forest. The author makes up Verdilith and Flynn, as well as the circumstances surrounding the destruction of the village. Of course, this also allows me to give the players a copy of the books and keep open the possibility that the author might have seen the future and written the books as a prophecy, which the PCs could then try to do something to stop it, or at least worry about it. One other thing... I finished the novel the Black Vessel, and I have to say that it is written so much better than the trilogies set in Mystara. While the Dragonlord series provides some good historical background, the dialogue was lame. I also found it amusing that at the end of the Black Vessel, there is a 2 page promo of the exciting and exotic world of Mystara. Why is TSR promoting something that has been discontinued? Dave Keyser ------------------------------ From: David Keyser <davidk@Synopsys.COM> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:41:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark I like the idea, although I would suggest maybe they do have ties and/or sympathies with the Shadow Elves, but are not numerous enough to control their brethren. And rather than honoring Lolth, they could honor Arachne Prime, the Night Spider from module M5. > > Alrighty, time to interject my opinion (not that anyone cares). > > I don't like using "Drow" in MYSTARA, since they are born and raised for > Forgotten Realms only, but I did find a good way to work "Dark" elves > into MYSTARA. Here goes: > > Dark elves stem from the same explosion that brought about the creation > of Shadow Elves. The main difference was the dark elves were in closer > proximity to the blast than the other elves, and therefore had more > damage done to their genetic codes. This damage accounts for the > abnormal hair/skin/eye pigmentation (heck, there has to be some good > reason to put in black skinned, red eyed, white haired elves). This > damage also accounts for the strange magic-like effects all dark elves > can produce. These effects are meerely modifications of the natural > radiation of the planet. > Further, being in proximity to this radiation is now required for a dark > elf to continue to live, which explains why they do not visit the > surface. > Lastly, we can account for their evil ways by saying that they have a > consuming desire to kill all other elves who were spared their fate, > including the shadow elves. > > Well, what do you think? This is a logical explination that turns > "Drow" into a MYSTARA native race and further explains why no one has > heard of them (Okay, consider this my contribution to the book.) > > Estlor > ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 14:46:39 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] This Underdark Thing... + Ravenloft/Glantri > Here we go, in a blunt fasion... > Dave, you were causing problems. Despite the fact only you and one >other person seemed to have any grievance over this net.book, you stepped >forward with a post that blew the whole situation out of proportion. Call >a vote? Why would this even need to be discussed when only two people >care? With all due respect, I believe you misread me. Allow me to repeat what I said, which was not a call for a vote on this matter... >>My point in posting this, though, is rather to suggest that instead of arguing >>over what does and doesn't belong, which is of limited utility since it's all >>very subjective as to what enriches and what detracts, that if/when there is >>significant dissatisfaction with something being done (or not done), that we do >>what we did with the Fluff situation, have a vote. I don't know if this is big >>enough of a thing to warrant such an action, but I'd just like to suggest to >>Leroy that if there seems to be significant uproar about something that he >>consider doing for it what was done for Fluff. I don't really care to see >>fluff on the list and voted accordingly, but I am happy nonetheless that we >>went about it the way we did, because it was fair and democratic. Notice the phrases "if/when there is significant dissatisfaction," "I don't know if this is a big enough of a thing...", and "if there seems to be significant uproar." And if I was not clear there I think I should have been at the end of my post: >>Not asking for a vote about this but just making a general suggestion, I will try yet again to explain myself: I was suggesting that rather than arguing over the appropriateness of something on the list past the point where it's obvious that it's a subjective matter, if someone feels that something does not belong on the list, they should ask Leroy to consider holding a vote. Naturally, that doesn't mean that anytime anyone doesn't like something there should be a vote, but I think it can be more constructive for someone to ask you to consider that, and for you to consider that, than to argue back and forth about gameworld X and race Y. I just happen to think that can be more constructive. The comment was as much to people with a greivance about things on the list as it was to Leroy. I won't deny that I got a bit testy about the original post that started presenting questions for the Underdark, but I am not angered, but disappointed that you would choose to label me problematic, a "gunman" on the list, even if you try to cushion the insult by telling me I'm not the only one. I ask that you look back at your participation in this thread and reconsider the tone in your posts. I find it hard to believe that you find my voice problematic and not recognize how your own could be construed as hurtful or petty. For example, did we really need that post correcting people on the gameworld from which Drow come? How is that relevant to anything? You say that I have blown things out of proportion because only two people on the list voiced greivance with the project, yet you label us gunmen and problem-makers when you are the only single person on the list to express a problem with what we have said. I can understand your being frustrated because you asked people to send comments to you privately and things stayed public anyway, but I for one made my comment before that request (I think you made the request because of it), and since then you, too, jumped into a public debate about it, which I think opens the door for public discourse. > Now, before you carve my name into the Jerk Tablet... I've never thought of you as a Jerk, Leroy. You devote a lot of time to this list and I'm grateful to you for effort you spend maintaining it. Kudos :) But, I think that your anticipation of being labeled a jerk should tell you something about the way you approached this. I don't mean you dealt with it like a jerk! I mean that I think you have not come across as harmlessly as you believe. You say earlier that you apologize for any offense but can't see how what you've said could be taken offensively. I think that you recognize the capacity for your words to have been hurtful in the "Jerk Tablet" comment above. > The reason I initially refrained from wording my posts in the above >manner is because I believe you had good intentions. And the actual >"problem" was quite small. I am not mad, do not have negative thoughts on >this, because you seemd to be authentically concerned about the well being >of the list. And I cannot fault you for that. I don't feel you, or Mr. >Ovard, had any malicous intent. > I did not wish to step forward with a post worded like the above >paragraph because I do not wish there to be ill will between me and any >of the subscribers. And, hopefully, with my explanation, there won't be. I appreciate your intentions and believe you wish well in all respects, too, but if I may make a request--I would feel a whole lot better if you came out and told me what I was doing to upset, frustrate, or cause problems for you rather than making half-subtle comments, using unflattering metaphors like gunman, and trying to side-step away from an insult by saying I'm not the only one. I don't think you'd like it if I said "Yes, you're carved on my Jerk Tablet, but you're not the only one!". > I, personally, have no hostile feelings. I am frustrated about all >this, but I am not mad. > And, for anyone who has hostile feelings towards me, all I can say is >that all I wanted to do was clear up the situation with the net.book, and >with what is appropriate for the list. Nothing else. I don't have an >attitude on the situation. Never did. If my posts came across that way, >it was not intentional. I introduced the word "hostility" and apologize for doing so because I think it's too strong a word for this situation. I have no hostile feelings toward anyone here, and I'm frustrated with the way things have been handled, but not with anyone overall. I think you're all way cool and I like being here. :) But, I again ask that you look back at some of the ways you've responded, Leroy. I think your frustration showed through in your remarks and while I think that's perfectly natural and understandable (heck, I've done it), the only thing that bugs me is that you seem to be oblivious to how anyone can see you as having had an attitude toward this. Please feel free to respond, although I'm satisfied just dropping the matter if you don't have anything else you want to get off of your chest. AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT... I've been looking at some Ravenloft stuff and I was wondering whether it would be feasible and cool to use some Ravenloft mechanics, flavor, etc. in Barovia and Klantyre of Glantri without making it any kind of Demiplane of Dread. Notice that the interior art for Glantri is not only by the same artist as that for much of Ravenloft but also, in many places, similar in the gothic feel? (If responding to this issue, please remove "Underdark thing" from subject line before responding, thanks). Cheers, /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard <jovard@polarnet.com> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 17:39:09 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark To Leroy and anyone else concerned : I apologize for blowing my top like that (it's not my usual response to these things), I simply didn't like being ... no, I'll stop while I'm ahead. Let's just let it be and move on shall we? No hard feelings? To the Underdark guy: You can come out now, we're through... J.Ovard jovard@polarnet.com ------------------------------ From: "J." Ovard <jovard@polarnet.com> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 17:41:52 PDT Subject: [Mystara] [O] Anybody home? Whatever happened to the MOrient? Are we still waiting on the comprehensive compilation of ideas? J.Ovard jovard@polarnet.com ------------------------------ From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 23:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] AD&D to D&D level conversions im involved in a campaign where i am helping the DM so that he can be prepared to utilize major known world NPCs. The campaign is in Davania right now. The characters have been to Brun on multiple occasions but Karimeikos is the only known world country that they have seen. im finding it impossible to determine the levels of known world NPCs. for instance: D&D level AD&D level Etienne d'Ambreville 35 20 Jaggar von Drachenfels 30 24 Eriadna 36 20 how could Drachenfels have passed Etienne and Eriadna? it might make sense if you said Etienne has 4.2 million XP so he's equivalent to a 23rd level AD&D mage, but going by those guidelines Jaggar would convert to 19th level since these NPCs were all the same class and all different levels they should still have different levels does anyone know a way to convert levels between the 2 games? it is also needed because of the fact that some NPCs were left out of the AD&D books, and conversely some AD&D NPCs were never in a D&D book i havent seen the Empress of Thyatis, Lucianna Torion in a D&D book (5th level Bard) and i havent seen Thyatin gladiator, Anaxibius in a AD&D book (30th level Fighter) well..... anyways id like to be able to use many AD&D NPCs but i cant when i dont know if a 10th level fighter is more experienced than a 20th level fighter anyone out there following me? ehhhhh Rich crlptonite@aol.com "ha ha ha... my dear brother, i cant remember the last time i sat down to a family dinner without a detect poison spell handy." - ---------------Simon d'Ambreville ------------------------------ From: "Alexander T. Knapp" <aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:12:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark > To the Underdark guy: You can come out now, we're through... [Poking his head out of the foxhole where he'd been cowering for the past two or three days] <Laugh> Anyone want to write up a travel guide on getting from Thyatis to Glantri without setting foot on the surface world? [He ducks] Alex. - - Alexander T. Knapp <Count Arien Darktower, Arch-Necromant> Editor, the Net.Book.of.the.Underdark aknapp@sava.cca.vu.nl ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 00:00:07 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark At 08:12 AM 8/27/96 +0200, you wrote: >> To the Underdark guy: You can come out now, we're through... > >[Poking his head out of the foxhole where he'd been cowering for the past >two or three days] > ><Laugh> Anyone want to write up a travel guide on getting from Thyatis to >Glantri without setting foot on the surface world? > >[He ducks] > >Alex. Sorry. :) *hug* /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] RTF Revisited I have another question on Rich Text Format. What is it's purpose? I don't have any problems reading or writing documents to or from RTF, but why would one want to? What advantage does it offer over other document formats? Thanks for your help, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Underdark On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Leroy Van Camp III droned on: >I agree, there was a post, from another, that did seem a bit harsh >towards you. *sigh* I assume you're referring to me. Well, see my other response to the matter. Note it that was written before the digest containing your message came out. Don't try to drag me into this. I don't wanna play. :) Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Timelines Is anyone still keeping up with the "official" timelines? Is the recently posted humanoid timeline going to be added to that? How about the Averoigne and Shadow Elf timelines posted over the summer? (I'm not exactly sure how cannonical those two were.) I have a few entries to add to the timeline, but I don't want them to get lost in the shuffle. Any help would be appreciated. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Drow Meets Shadow Elf On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, MR JOSEPH M GERBER wrote: >>What's wrong with having a small drow contingent find a gate into >>the >>depths of Mystara? What would happen if they made contact with the >>Shadow Elves? > >They would probably say something like "Thank you so much for >building this wonderful city for us." > >Referring, of course, to the City of the Stars, which they would try >to annex. <tee hee> Thanks for the smile, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [none] SUBJECT: Prince G-W and Thar On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Anias Pasi responded: >>Doesn't the Rules Cyclopedia put a >>limit on the number of pawns that an undead liege can control? > >Yes. But a undead pawn can hawe pawns of his own, who are thus >pawns of his liege too, but do not count against the limit of >the overliege. So an undead liege can in fact have unlimited >amount of pawns I think the limit on directly controlled pawns is half the level of the liege. What level is Thar? Prince G-W would have to be pretty powerful to have Thar as a pawn. Then again, he is the High Master of Necromancy. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri <fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:43:47 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] [O] Anybody home? Yes, I'm here! Joe Duncan, are you there? Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Charmed Characters (was Kopru) [question about a charmed PC betraying his comrades snipped] The rules may be slightly different in OD&D, but in AD&D the I think the charm effect only serves to make the character believe that the kopru is a trusted friend and ally. The other PC's are (presumably) also the character's friends, and as such the charmed character wouldn't intentionally betray them. If the kopru tried to get the character to do something contrary to his or her nature, the charmed character would refuse. The elf/half-elf charm resistance only applies when the character is first being charmed. I hope that helps. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #197 ***************************** mystara-digest Wednesday, 28 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 198 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Prince G-W and Thar On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Fabrizio Paoli responded with the following words of wisdom: >The maximum number of pawns HD that a liege can control is twice his HD, >The maximum range of control is 24 miles per HD of a liege, i.e. 672 >miles >for Price G-W Oops! I think I said half in my other post. Given these two facts, Thar definitely wouldn't be a problem. >Besides Morphail is also High Master of Necromancy, so he can Control >Undead >(a number of HD < or = his level) up to 40 Km. away, but his control >lasts >only until the next full moon. I guess this would be in addition to his liege-pawn relationships. >Never realized Morphail was _so_ powerful, perhaps I made a mistake.... Me too. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Threshold (was Ruins) On On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One replied: >>>The ruins north of Threshold: Bargle the Infamous has a base here. >> >>He does?!? Where did you find that? Are you referring to that >>introductory >>adventure in one of the printings of the Basic Set (where Bargle is >>wanted >>for killing Aleena)? Threshold also has the ruins of an old mill on the >>north end of Fogor Isle. > >Yes. These are those selfsame ruins, but they are also mentioned in the >Blue Box Expert set (revised), in the Campaign section, where Threshold >and Specularum are discussed in detail. Thanks, I missed that reference. Looking it up helped me find another tidbit about Threshold. There is a small, dark, dangerous magical forest about five miles west of the town which consists of 100 fighters and their mounts, sleeping and massmorphed into the form of trees. These fighters are servants of Bargle. BTW, GAZ1 says that these ruins are also Hutaakan. >There is also an arrow on the >Threshold map pointing north saying "to ruins". Yep. I knew about that. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Swordmaking On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Fabrizio Paoli said: >>There are numerous places in the GAZ series where a >>particular city or place was mentioned as known for making a particular >>item. >>Why don't we start by compiling a list of those and then expand on it? > >Finally someone answered to my mail ! :-) Forsooth, didst thou doubt? I thought a five day response time was pretty good (well, for me any way). :) :) :) >let's start compiling the list... >you can start with Karameikos, I'll do Darokin then we'll move to other >places. >If someone else is interested just pick a place, look at the Gaz and mail >the list. >Obviously if a place is renowned for making a particular item, that item >should have some particular bonus in game terms: a sword made in Fortress >Island may be +1 to hit, a rope from Akesoli may be stronger than other >ropes, wine from Averoigne may be tastier and more expensive... or only >more >expensive :-) Works for me. Let's see now, where did I put my copy of GAZ1? :) Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Underdark On Sun, 25 Aug 96, "J." Ovard replied: >>On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, "J." Ovard spewed forth: > >Spewed? I was tired and ran out of synonyms. No offense intended. >>Does that >>mean I can't call it Mystara? > >Of course you can call it Mystara. >You can call it Mildew if you like...that's entirely up to you. <snicker> Oops. What I meant was "Does that mean it's not Mystara?" <But see below before responding.> >Perhaps it would be wise not to assume so much about other peopole's >comments. In no way did I mean you cannot use those things in your >campaign. I guess we both mis-spoke and made invalid assumptions because that is exactly what "Mystara, no" implies. <But see below before responding.> >OD&D or AD&D, Mystara is Mystara. >I wouldn't mind a small group of Illithids or Drow in the Underdark, >possibly arriving by a Spelljamming craft, but simply inserting them into >Mystara as if they had always been there, as in another campaign >world, would detract from what makes Mystara so great Agreed! Thats all I was trying to say. I'm glad we see eye-to-eye, even if we didn't express ourselves well in the beginning. I apologize if it sounded like I was attacking you. My brief step onto the soapbox was intended for everyone's benefit, and wasn't specifically directed at you. It just happened to be your message I was responding to. I suppose I should have been more clear on that. Happy campaigning, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri <fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:36:20 +-200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Prince G-W and Thar Anias Pasi said: >>I just have a quick observation to make. Doesn't the Rules Cyclopedia = put a >> limit on the number of pawns that an undead liege can control? Also, >> isn't there a limit to the distance over which the liege can control = the >> pawn? How would this change the relationship between Morphail and = Thar? > >Yes. But a undead pawn can hawe pawns of his own, who are thus >pawns of his liege too, but do not count against the limit of >the overliege. So an undead liege can in fact have unlimited >amount of pawns, distriputed in an exact 'net' or tree >(kind of like the net :) Yeah, interesting..... But a lot of undeads are needed for a whole = net.... It would mean that they are really everywhere! Let's continue: = so, there could be a nosferatu-organization well hidden in the society. = It can have agents also in others country! Creepy, isn't it (lots of = adventure ideas)?! Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:10:11 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D to D&D level conversions On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > If you don't like Jaggar's powering up in AD&D terms, simply make him a > 20th level mage. Sorry, he should be 18th level, not 20th. :p ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:06:01 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D to D&D level conversions On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: > for instance: > D&D level AD&D level > Etienne d'Ambreville 35 20 > Jaggar von Drachenfels 30 24 > Eriadna 36 20 > > how could Drachenfels have passed Etienne and Eriadna? It's simple, really- the writers and/or editors at TSR decided to make Jaggar this powerful. There's nothing else to it. :) The actual level conversion over the years has changed somewhat from format to format, but the most recent (and, therefore, by TSR logic, most valid), is in the Rules Cyclopedia, wherein the levels are the same between games, up to level 12. After level twelve, 3 D&D game levels are equivalent to 1 AD&D game level. Thus, a 36 level mage in D&D is equivalent to a 20th level AD&D mage. The actual mechanics work out differently (a 36th level D&D mage's fireball will waste a 20th level AD&D mage's fireball), but it's a good rule of thumb. If you don't like Jaggar's powering up in AD&D terms, simply make him a 20th level mage. ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 04:40:54 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] Charmed Characters (was Kopru) >The rules may be slightly different in OD&D, but in AD&D the I think >the charm effect only serves to make the character believe that the kopru >is a trusted friend and ally. The other PC's are (presumably) also the >character's friends, and as such the charmed character wouldn't >intentionally betray them. If the kopru tried to get the character to >do something contrary to his or her nature, the charmed character would >refuse. As I understand, it is the same in OD&D with the possible exception (this may be more an individual thing) that something contrary to nature is not simply refused but rather warrants another save with a bonus or penalty commensurate with the compatibility with the charmed character's normal inclinations. An utterly heinous and uncharacteristic behavior would not simply be refused, but would result in an automatically successful saving throw (e.g. commanding someone to kill his/her saintly mother). Toodles, /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Fraser MacKenzie <fraserm@achilles.net> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] RTF Revisited Because originaly Microsoft word was a Macintosh word processor, they had to have some way to be able to read the files in Microsoft word on the PC. I am not sure if this is the original reason, but it sure was a good one. Fraser On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > > > I have another question on Rich Text Format. What is it's purpose? I > don't have any problems reading or writing documents to or from RTF, but > why would one want to? What advantage does it offer over other document > formats? > > > Thanks for your help, > > > > >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< > > ************************************************************************** > ** ** > ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** > ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** > ** ** > ************************************************************************** > Fraser MacKenzie GOSENSGO GOSENSGO GOSENSGO http://www.achilles.net/~fraserm GOSENSGO GOSENSGO GOSENSGO \|/ _____________________________ (o o) __________________| Fraser MacKenzie |_____oo0_(_)_0oo____ \ Optimization | fraserm@senators.com |If only I could be / \ hinders | Voice: 613-830-5581 |respected without / | evolution. | Fax : 613-830-5807 |being respectable.| / |_____________________________| \ /___________________) (______________________\ ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese <dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:13:41 -0400 (EST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timelines > Is anyone still keeping up with the "official" timelines? Is the recently > posted humanoid timeline going to be added to that? How about the > Averoigne and Shadow Elf timelines posted over the summer? (I'm not > exactly sure how cannonical those two were.) I'm the one who posted the Averoigne timeline, and it's completely canon. The Shadow Elf discussion was trying to figure out some inconsistincies between dates given in various products, which I'm going to list in the (RSN, honest :) ) next version of the full Timeline. I still have to look through the 'noid timeline, but it will probably go in the 'non-canon' section. (I'll be chatting with "Cthulhudrew", it's author, as soon as I finish comparing it to GAZ10 and so on.) > I have a few entries to add to the timeline, but I don't want them to get > lost in the shuffle. Any help would be appreciated. Don't worry; I immediately save anything on the history of Mystara, look through it, and reply to the author.. by all means, post any new entries. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca The Official Keeper of the Unofficial Timeline ------------------------------ From: Telrathin@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:08:02 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] Re: Mystara Net.Book Sir Geroge wrote: >It would be nice to see a net.book with input from the mailing list similar >to the MOrient project. There is a new Mystaran Netbook with a new editor ready to hit the MPGN site any day now. The current editor is Amaldis@aol.com, and to be frank, he's desperate for Mystaran supporters to send great articles about Mystara to him for the next netbook. So, if the proud supporters of this mailing list wish to include their two cents in future netbook productions, try mailing some articles based on topics discussed in here to Amaildis, I'm sure he'd be grateful for your contributions. - -Andrew McKinstry >Telrathin@aol.com/Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu< ------------------------------ From: Telrathin@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:12:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timelines Sir Geroge Wrote: << Is anyone still keeping up with the "official" timelines? Is the recently posted humanoid timeline going to be added to that? How about the Averoigne and Shadow Elf timelines posted over the summer? (I'm not exactly sure how cannonical those two were.) >> I believe there is an exceptionally large, complete timeline for all of Mystara in the upcoming Netbook (plug, plug ;>) - -Andrew McKinstry Telrathin@aol.com/Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu ------------------------------ From: "The Dark Elf." <martinh@deakin.edu.au> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:55:04 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Spells Well a while back I kinda got a little overboard with a revamp of the D&D spell system with the addition of AD&D spells and quite a few others (up to 1000 and still climbing) I was woundering if anyone out there would have a few spells they created lying around and pass them on.... I have sorted out the spell's by source, and a list of them all..... (i also use a varient of path magic from an old dragon due to the amount of spells) I was looking for a 1st level astral spell... if anyone has created one.. otherwise anyother spell is a welcome entry.... ****************************************************************************** * Martin Hamilton The Dark Elf martinh@deakin.edu.au * ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "The Dark Elf." <martinh@deakin.edu.au> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:43:49 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] drow vs. dark elves Does anyone remember reading about the Dark elves of Mystara.... because I found it once in one of the Gaz (northen reaches I think) that said any elf can become a dark elf..... they become a dark elf by studying the art's of Necromancy... at which time they are thrown out of thier clan and banished.... hunted down... feared that sort of thing... so there could be a city of dark elves somewhere... but it would be a hidden location... lots of interesting info can be made up about this as I have not seen anymore written about it in any of the material I have.. correct me if I'm wrong... ****************************************************************************** * Martin Hamilton The Dark Elf martinh@deakin.edu.au * ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Johnson <johnson@execulink.com> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 01:31:59 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] The Black Vessel David Keyser wrote: > One other thing... > > I finished the novel the Black Vessel, and I have to say that it is written so > much better than the trilogies set in Mystara. While the Dragonlord series > provides some good historical background, the dialogue was lame. I also found > it amusing that at the end of the Black Vessel, there is a 2 page promo of the > exciting and exotic world of Mystara. Why is TSR promoting something that > has been discontinued? I found this advertisement rather bizarre as well. In an earlier post, I asked if anyone had any information about when the book, Son of Dawn, would be published. This book is mentioned in the back of Dragonmage of Mystara and is apparently a Mystara book about Shadow Elves. Yet I have seen no indication anywhere else that this book exists. Judging by the lack of response to my post, it would seem that no one else has any information either. Just what is TSR up to with the Mystara novels? Are they continuing despite the discontinuation of the game products (sort of like what happened with Dragonlance over the past couple of years)? Michael Ray Johnson ------------------------------ From: Gabriele Ferri <fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:44:37 +-200 Subject: [Mystara] Kopru's stats Hi everybody! I was looking for infos about koprus, but I realized that my X1's last = page (the one with kopru's stats) is unreadable (1 year ago, during a = game session, a whole bottle of Coke fell on this page). Is there = someone who can send me this monster's stats? Another question: is there any 'unofficial' kopru-related infos on the = net (more dscriptions, how to use it as PC, etc....)? Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 04:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Penhaligon Trilogy On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, David Keyser articulated: >I did find one small reference to the Penhalgion Trilogy in the boxed >adventure Hail the Heroes. > >I am going on memory, but one of these clues was in a book whose author >was >Johanna Menhir(may be misspelled) who was the heroine in the Penhalgion >Trilogy. Actually, "Hail the Heroes" referred to the first book in the Dragonlord Trilogy. The adventure says it was penned by Perrantin the mage. Solveig White-Gold is the one who discovered the Shield of Halav. >I made these books a work of fiction written in Mystara about 1003 AC, >and loosely based on some actual events that did happen. That works well too. Just curious, do you use the Order of the Three Suns? You'd almost have to. How did you handle Arteris Penhaligon's title? >Of course, this also allows me to give the players a copy of the books and >keep >open the possibility that the author might have seen the future and >written the >books as a prophecy, which the PCs could then try to do something to stop >it, or >at least worry about it. Cool. I like this idea. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #198 ***************************** From ???@??? Fri Aug 30 12:06:41 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10578; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:13:41 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA24821 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:42:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:42:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199608290042.TAA24821@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #199 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 22bf85bfded8ef84485b9cebf5804660 mystara-digest Wednesday, 28 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 199 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sir George Anonymous <lcdavis@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 04:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] AD&D to D&D Level Conversions On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, CRlPTONITE queried: >does anyone know a way to convert levels between the 2 games? Yes, someone does. Is there anything else we can do for you? :) Ooooohhhhhh, you want someone to tell you how to do it! According to the Rules Cyclopedia, the conversion works as follows: D&D Level AD&D Level --------- ---------- 1-11 Same 12-14 12 15-17 13 18-20 14 21-23 15 24-26 16 27-29 17 30-32 18 33-35 19 36 20 I did an analysis last spring and determined that most of the NPC's were converted properly when updating them from PWA2 (D&D) to PWA3 (AD&D). Note that I only checked humans. The only one that seemed out of whack to me was Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels. At the time, someone pointed out that he used to be a dragon immortal, and thus might deserve the extra levels. Personally, I think it was a typo. Later, >>> Sir George Anonymous <<< ************************************************************************** ** ** ** There are no Thyatians here. There are no Traladarans. There are ** ** only citizens of Karameikos. - King Stefan Karameikos, AC 1012 ** ** ** ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Anias Pasi <a122286@proffa.cc.tut.fi> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:42:17 +0200 (EET DST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] drow vs. dark elves Martin Hamilton wrote; > Does anyone remember reading about the Dark elves of Mystara.... because > I found it once in one of the Gaz (northen reaches I think) that said any > elf can become a dark elf..... they become a dark elf by studying the > art's of Necromancy... at which time they are thrown out of thier clan > and banished.... hunted down... feared that sort of thing... Yes, well. I believe this is derived from the Dragonlance line. In Dragonlance there is no race called the dark elves nor anything similar. In stead the definition of dark elf really is as you said, an elf mage, who has studied the forbitten areas of magic (the most famous must have been Dalamar). When an elf is caught studying the black arts, he is usually thrown out of the clan, or sometimes even killed. He becomes a clanles, scorned and feared dark elf. However, these darkelves should not be mixed with the drow, or the shadowelves. The drow (FR) and the shadowelves (Mystara) are two entirely different races of elf, where as the Darkelves Dl) are of the same race as the other elves. I personally dont recall the mentioning of this in any of the gazetteers, but ofcourse, if you say so. Anyhow I dont much like it. As a big factor in the world. Ofcource, if they want to call necromancer-elves darkelves in Vestland, it sounds good and ok, but it is an antirely different matter in say Glantri; Are the Belcadiz mages who study witchcraft to be chased out of their clan and to be named darkelves. I dont think so. Conclusion: IMHO the name darkelf, as a definition of a elven necromancer or other artist of black magic is used in the Norhern realms (if that was it) but not globally, as an norm, as in the Dragonlance. Just thinking aloud... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.931-2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:29:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D to D&D Level Conversions thats great!!!!! thanks alot i knew id only have to post the question thats strange about Jaggar so he's the equivalent of a 48th level D&D magic-user??? no, i know what your saying it was their decision but, i would have raised Etienne's level alot he's experienced more in the days since the GAZ than anyone ever has hes experienced the immortal lifestyle hes actually seen and interacted with the old ones how many beings have done that? for our campaign i will raise Etienne's level i like Jaggars rise too i think ill also keep that he did do a lot during WotI fending off the humanoids and the alphatians how does the conversion system work for the demihumans? well thanks again i can finnally start preparing these NPCs now << The only one that seemed out of whack to me was Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels. >> i also noticed Harald Haaskinz passed the 20th AD&D level i havent seen anyone else who has though Rich crlptonite@aol.com "ha ha ha... my dear brother, i cant remember the last time i sat down to a family dinner without a detect poison spell handy." - ---------------Simon d'Ambreville ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin <kaelin@natural.com> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:33:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D to D&D Level Conversions >According to the Rules Cyclopedia, the conversion works as follows: > > D&D Level AD&D Level > --------- ---------- > 1-11 Same > 12-14 12 > 15-17 13 > 18-20 14 > 21-23 15 > 24-26 16 > 27-29 17 > 30-32 18 > 33-35 19 > 36 20 > >I did an analysis last spring and determined that most of the NPC's were >converted properly when updating them from PWA2 (D&D) to PWA3 (AD&D). >Note that I only checked humans. The only one that seemed out of whack to >me was Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels. At the time, someone pointed out >that he used to be a dragon immortal, and thus might deserve the extra >levels. Personally, I think it was a typo. I was the one who mentioned the level thing for Jaggar. (Him being a major player on the side of lawfulness in my campaign I had to defend him.) I'd agree it was a typo if it wasn't for a few things. 1) They give his usual memorized spells in the Glantri Boxed set. They are indeed the allotted spells for a 24th level mage so someone at TSR must have looked at him in depth. (So either they kept the typo, or they really did mean it.) 2) Jagger was the Lawful Dragon Ruler, an immortal, for a while, but turned in the responsability when he learened that the dracoligist of Glantri were upsetting the eternal order of the Dragon Hierarchy when they use their powers. (At least it's how I describe it in my campaign.) This gave him ample oppourtunity to gain xp and/or gain favor with the other Dragon Rulers, particularly the Great One, when he turned it in. (I also agree that Etienne should be 30th, because he also has the experience of immortality but that's another note...see below) 3) Jagger is listed (again in the boxed set) as the widely believed owner of one of Mystara's Orbs of Dragonkind. You don't get to keep an artifact like that by being the same level as 20 wizards around you. :-) 4) He headed up the armies of Glantri in what was the largest war yet on Mystara. 5) He's human. (OK, so what?) Well, if you dig a little there are numerous references to the fact that Vampires, Liches and all other nun-humans gain levels much slower then humans. (Van Richten's guide to Vampires sets the mark at a 50% chance per CENTURY that a vampire wizard will gain a level.) This is, of course, a really dopey rule (and I ignore it freely) but they may have had it in mind when he was updated. They may have also felt he "needed" the levels to compete with Night Dragons, Liches, Vampires, Immortals in Mortal Identities, etc. etc. etc. that all bascially translated into AD&D levels only 1 or 2 apart. Also, keep in mind in AD&D conversions that 30th level is techincally the new level limit for humans. (As set in the High Level campaigns book) When the rules encyclopedia came out, this rule was not in effect (it was widely believed before that that 20th was the limit, although never stated in writing anywhere). We may want to create a new conversion chart that takes this into effect. Perhaps we should create subcategories among the 36th level mages of D&D Mystara based on power/age/experience and give some of those a few more levels over and above 20th. Etienne (at least in mortal identity) may be 30th, Eriadna (who's a couple hundred years younger then Etienne I believe) may be 25th-27th, and so on. - -Bob - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com <http://www.natural.com> ------------------------------ From: DragonMast@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:53:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] RTF Revisited In a message dated 96-08-27 05:51:45 EDT, you write: << I have another question on Rich Text Format. What is it's purpose? I don't have any problems reading or writing documents to or from RTF, but why would one want to? What advantage does it offer over other document formats? >> RTF allows special features that ASCII does not. For instance, if the author wanted a word in Italics or Underlined, RTF will keep that format whereas ASCII would strip those codes out of the file as it was saved. What it comes down to is that RTF preserves the 'look' or format of the document. Hope this helps, Wayne Tripp ------------------------------ From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:51:17 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Swordmaking At 19:13 26-08-96 +0200, you wrote: >At 08.26 25/08/96 -0400, Sir George Anonymous wrote: > >>On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Fabrizio Paoli suggested >> >>>In real world medieval Europe certain towns were renowned for their swords >>>(e.g. the blades from Toledo, Spain), it could be interesting to have >>>something similar in the KW. >> >>Why stop with swords? There are numerous places in the GAZ series where a >>particular city or place was mentioned as known for making a particular item. >>Why don't we start by compiling a list of those and then expand on it? >> >Finally someone answered to my mail ! :-) >Your idea is a very interesting one, so let's start compiling the list... >You can start with Karameikos, I'll do Darokin then we'll move to other places. >If someone else is interested just pick a place, look at that Gaz and mail >the list. I can help with karameikos if you want. I don't know a lot of other countries. >Obviously if a place is renowned for making a particular item, that item >should have some particular bonus in game terms: a sword made in Fortress >Island may be +1 to hit, a rope from Akesoli may be stronger than other >ropes, wine from Averoigne may be tastier and more expensive... or only more >expensive :-) > >************** >Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it >DM in City Of The Stars >aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton >aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr >Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 > > > ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:16:20 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Underdark At 08.12 27/08/96 +0200, you wrote: > ><Laugh> Anyone want to write up a travel guide on getting from Thyatis to >Glantri without setting foot on the surface world? > Interesting ! IIRC in DD1(?)(the adventure set in Thyatis among gladiators... "Arena of Thyatis" or something like that) there is a reference to a Shadow Elf ring that the PC can find beneath the Coliseum, so there should probably be an (hidden and long lost) underground way from the Shadow Elves caves to Thyatis City. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:16:24 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Prince G-W and Thar At 05.36 27/08/96 -0400, Sir George wrote: > >On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Fabrizio Paoli responded with the following words of >wisdom: Wisdom ? Mmmmh... I wouldn't say that, because.... > >>The maximum number of pawns HD that a liege can control is twice his HD, > >>The maximum range of control is 24 miles per HD of a liege, i.e. 672 >>miles >>for Price G-W From ???@??? Fri Aug 30 12:06:41 1996 Return-Path: <owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com> Received: from lists.io.com by student.anu.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10578; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:13:41 +1000 From: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Received: (from root@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA24821 for mystara-digest-outgoing; Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:42:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:42:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199608290042.TAA24821@lists.io.com> To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V1 #199 Reply-To: mystara@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 22bf85bfded8ef84485b9cebf5804660 As you can see I wrote Hit Dice, not level... Though G-W is level 28 (IIRC) in AC 1000, he has "only" 9 HD, thus he can control only 18 HD of undead in a range of 216 miles, i.e. 27 map hex Now controlling Thar is a problem, unless we use Morphail's level instead of HD. IMO being Morphail not an ordinary monster, but a special NPC it would be better to use his level, though this may seriously unbalance a campaign. What do you think ? >>Besides Morphail is also High Master of Necromancy, so he can Control >>Undead >>(a number of HD < or = his level) up to 40 Km. away, but his control >>lasts >>only until the next full moon. > >I guess this would be in addition to his liege-pawn relationships. > Right. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it DM in City Of The Stars aka David Gnome, herald of Gond's temple in Tilverton aka Doriath, 1/2 Elf Ranger in Cormyr Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349 ------------------------------ From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:50:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D to D&D Level Conversions << Also, keep in mind in AD&D conversions that 30th level is techincally the new level limit for humans. (As set in the High Level campaigns book) When the rules encyclopedia came out, this rule was not in effect (it was widely believed before that that 20th was the limit, although never stated in writing anywhere). We may want to create a new conversion chart that takes this into effect. Perhaps we should create subcategories among the 36th level mages of D&D Mystara based on power/age/experience and give some of those a few more levels over and above 20th. Etienne (at least in mortal identity) may be 30th, Eriadna (who's a couple hundred years younger then Etienne I believe) may be 25th-27th, and so on. -Bob >> i think thats a good idea how do you suggest rating power and experience? how many 36th level NPCs are there? i know alot of them died during the week without magic but then again many were wished back to life who do you think would have the highest level? Etienne, Eriadna, Jaggar, Terari etc...???? ------------------------------ From: Deathwatch <deathw@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:59:24 +0200 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Penhalgion Trilogy At 13:17 26-08-96 -0700, you wrote: >I did find one small reference to the Penhalgion Trilogy in the boxed >adventure Hail the Heroes. Don't have that one...I had no money when I could buy it...and now it's gone >The PCs are doing research in the library of the Magician's Guild in Mirros. >They are trying to pinpoint the location of some ruins near Threshold where an >artifact may be buried. They find a few relevant blurbs in different books. > >I am going on memory, but one of these clues was in a book whose author was >Johanna Menhir(may be misspelled) who was the heroine in the Penhalgion Trilogy. >The blurb is nothing but a description of Threshold as a rider approaches it >from the south, but after the quote, the module notes that it is unclear >whether the author is writing about Karameikos in the distant future, or >whether it is just a work of fiction. > >That gave me the excuse to throw out all the total crap that came out of that >trilogy. I made these books a work of fiction written in Mystara about 1003 AC, >and loosely based on some actual events that did happen. For example, the >village of Bywater did exist, but was destroyed by the great green dragon >(Argosyl) who resides in the Dymrak Forest. The author makes up Verdilith and >Flynn, as well as the circumstances surrounding the destruction of the village. I don't know a thing about that village...I'm looking for more information about all those villages. >Of course, this also allows me to give the players a copy of the books and keep >open the possibility that the author might have seen the future and written the >books as a prophecy, which the PCs could then try to do something to stop it, or >at least worry about it. Hehehe...yeah..cool >One other thing... > >I finished the novel the Black Vessel, and I have to say that it is written so >much better than the trilogies set in Mystara. While the Dragonlord series >provides some good historical background, the dialogue was lame. I also found >it amusing that at the end of the Black Vessel, there is a 2 page promo of the >exciting and exotic world of Mystara. Why is TSR promoting something that >has been discontinued? Dunno...maybe they will continue it... >Dave Keyser > Bas van Doornspeek ------------------------------ From: Robert Kaelin <kaelin@natural.com> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:03:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D to D&D Level Conversions >i think thats a good idea >how do you suggest rating power and experience? >how many 36th level NPCs are there? >i know alot of them died during the week without magic >but then again many were wished back to life >who do you think would have the highest level? >Etienne, Eriadna, Jaggar, Terari etc...???? Well, according to the Immortal rules (gold box and WotI). 1) An immortal can create a mortal identity of any level normally attainable by humans. (So Etienne would probably be 30th as Rad's mortal identity.) 2) If Rad is no longer an immortal, then he'd probably revert to his level before attaining immortality. While I can't find a rule at the moment requiring this, I'd have to assume anyone who attains immortaility is maximum level when he trancends. (Although because Rad used an unconvntional method ot attain immortality this isn't necessarily true in his case.) I'd still assume he was 30th before he became immortal. So Etienne would be the highest. Terari is older then Eriadna (he's her father isn't he?) so he'd probably be a few levels higher then her. Alphatia, having the largest population of mages, would probably mean they've had a great deal to study. I'd guess around 26th-28th for Terari (meaning he's close to being able to quest for immortality which seems to fit) and around 22nd-24th for Eriadna. I realize this means Jaggar is probably more powerful then the ruler of Alphatia. I attribute this to 2 things, 1) I like Jaggar, 2) I dislike Alphatia. (You can make up your own rules) :-) Seriously, I stand by his whole "immortality experience" and "war experience" theories to explain his increased levels. Jaggar leads his troops into battle personally, Eriadna is primarily a politician. These are, of course, numbers I just made up. My reasoning included a few factors. (in general order of importance) Also note, I only claim it works for NPC's. :-) - - How powerful they seem to be from descriptions. - - Age (older mages usually being higher level) - - Intelligence (particularly gifted mages may transcend age.) - - Where they live. (Mages in seclusion in the Broken Lands may not advance as quickly as a mage with all the libraries of Glantri or Alphatia at his/her command) - - Their basic personalities. (Terari, being a teacher and one who (at least now) frequently works on projects with other mages would probably advance more quickly then an isolationalist.) - ------------------------------------------------ Bob Kaelin Natural Intelligence Software Developer 725 Concord Ave. (617) 876-7680 x1253 Cambridge Ma. 02138 Kaelin@natural.com <http://www.natural.com> ------------------------------ From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" <jsmill@imap1.asu.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:16:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Mystara] drow vs. dark elves Martin Hamilton wrote; > Does anyone remember reading about the Dark elves of Mystara.... because > I found it once in one of the Gaz (northen reaches I think) that said any > elf can become a dark elf..... they become a dark elf by studying the > art's of Necromancy... at which time they are thrown out of thier clan > and banished.... hunted down... feared that sort of thing... In GAZ7 (The Northern Reaches), there are various mentionings of Dark Elves. At least one under the Modrigswerg entry (Ring of the Nine Svartalven); and one in the end, under the entry for Svartalfheim- home of the dark elves. These are due mainly to the fact that the Dark Elves and Light Elves have a place in real world Norse mythology, and so were brought over by the author in the GAZ. A few things- 1) These do not necessarily have to be Drow. Nowhere is the word Drow mentioned, just Dark Elf. Which could mean any number of things. 2) Feel free to add or subtract as much of 'real' Norse mythology from Mystara as you want. IMO, it doesn't mesh terribly well with the Immortals rules/history from Mystara, and so I don't take it verbatim. Also note that the GAZ mentions Svartalfheim as being an outer plane, or one of the outer planes that make up the Northern Reaches pantheon's home. Hence, any dark elves may just be evil servants of immortals there (Loki, for one), and not be native to Mystara. ------------------------------ From: TSRInc@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:44:33 -0400 Subject: [Mystara] What would you like on the TSR web site? First of all, my apologies for posting this to several lists.... All right, some of you may recall that back in December I sent out email (and posted to the .dnd newsgroup) asking for suggestions about what we should include on the _real_ TSR web site. Well, I did keep all of those emails, and have compiled them into the list below. What I want to know now is ... is there anything else you can think of? What else would you like to see on the site? Please reply to me personally, and not to the list, as there are a lot of people that don't want to wade through a lot of posts on this topic. Thanks, and here's the list! <blank> of the month (monster, spell, item, adventure, etc.) Almanac (allows realtime events to occur) AOL exclusives (older ones, like the Castle Guide) Areas planned for each world (so you know what TSR _won't_ be covering) Bazaar of the Bizarre (user-created, or simply Dragon archives) Catalog of products (past and current) Convention calendar Conventions - what RPGA events they're doing Conventions - what TSR people are going Dragon/Dungeon articles Email forms for feedback to staff (including Sage Advice) Errata FAQs GIF of Sean eating a Big Mac (thanks, James...) Graphics libraries Graphics on the site Humor (Dragonmirth?) Image maps of worlds (a la Volo online?) Indexes to periodicals Links to other sites Maps of Dark Sun city-states Maps of sample dungeons Maps of worlds Mirror sites Newsletters/listservs of official info (press releases, etc...) No graphics on the site OOP stuff (posted) Ordering info Out-of-print lists (what is, what isn't) Portraits of characters (a Who's Who) Prizes and Contests RPGA info and files Rules clarifications (via narratives - "show, don't tell") Sage Advice & index to Sage Advice Software (databases, etc.) Stories Suggestion boxes for products Text-only browser support Timelines of game worlds Unprinted articles from Dragon/Dungeon (with author's permission) Upload area World backgrounds - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/ ------------------------------ From: "David 'Azure' Leland" <dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 16:14:34 PDT Subject: Re: [Mystara] drow vs. dark elves >Conclusion: IMHO the name darkelf, as a definition of a >elven necromancer or other artist of black magic is used >in the Norhern realms (if that was it) but not globally, >as an norm, as in the Dragonlance. I think it would be cool to allow that term to cause confusion in a PC party in the Northern Reaches, making them think Shadow Elves and perhaps messing up their tactics. *evil grin* /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Homepage: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ From: Daniel Boese <dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:41:24 -0400 (EST) Subject: [Mystara] Globe of Mystara? I just had a rather interesting conversation with a person who swears that TSR sold a few hundred (or maybe thousand) globes of the planet of Mystara.. they included physical features and political boundries. It was able to split open on the equator, revealing the Hollow World (which was also visible through the polar openings). He doesn't recall if it was pre- or post-Wrath. Has anybody else heard of these globes, and more importantly, know how I can order one? :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca Official Keeper of the Unofficial Timeline ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1 #199 *****************************