From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #27 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, March 25 1997 Volume 02 : Number 027 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:18:24 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elven Migrations At 11.16 24/03/97 EST, you wrote: >> Well that would create a problem then. Maybe they came across earlier but >> since they had similar ancestral histories as it were then they both developed >> a spanish type culture independantly - it's not impossible. > > I don't have the Savage Baronies set, but the answer is probably >in there. There's a people ( the Espan or Ispan ) that are the >spanish-like influence on the Savage Coast. Their arrival apparently dates >back only 100 years. So where did they come from? They must have had their >spanish-like culture before they got to the Savage Coast, so perhaps the >Belcadiz got their spanish-like culture from the original Espan culture >and not the Savage Coast one... So it remains to be seen where the Espan >came from, and how the Belcadiz got there before ending up in Glantri... >Again this is just my conjecture... It is possible that two spanish-like >cultures developed independently... > > IMO the Kerendans (one of the 3 Thyatian tribes with Hattians and Thyatians) have an italian-like culture (BTW this could also explain the origins of the Malapietra in Glantri) and the Ispans colonist are actually a group of Kerendans. There's no much difference between italians and spanish cultures, they come both from a common latin (Thyatian) root. Anyway I don't think that the Belcadiz originate from the Vyalia elves that inhabit the area around Kerendas, because Vyalia are often described as reclusive. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:22:46 +0000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (Stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Elven Migrations >>What I was trying to say by making the Wdnar elves a colony not near >>Blackmoor (BTW I consider Blackmoor to placed as the Outer World >>Postcataclysmic Map from the Hollow World boxed set places it) to account for >>the way that the Wendar Elves weren't wiped out by the GRoF, also to explain >>how they weren't affected by technology and also to perhaps explain why they >>have such a dim view of their early history. > >Well, "Near to Blackmoor", as someone else mentioned earlier, is entirely >relative. Being on the continent of Brun, during the Blackmoor era ( with >Blackmoor on Skothar ) could be considered "near" to Blackmoor compared to >Grunland and Evergrun, which were on the other side of the planet. WRT Blackmoor I sort of agree that its location is not important, it depends where its prefered location on Brun is IMHO. Because the way I see it, is that Blackmoor and everything near it was destroyed during the GRoF so we don't want Wendar too close to Blackmoor at this time. I still have problems with you idea of Wendar elves coming from Blackmoor elves. My interpretation of the things written in the PWAs, which is the only source of such information AFAIK, is that the Wendar elves aren't part of those four clans and aren't connected with the Blackmoor elves at all. I am not going to quote the passage here but what I get out of it is that the Wendar elves migrated from Evergrun around the same time as the Blackmoor Elves - it doesn't actually say that they're connected to them. Therefore I don't see the need for the connection that seems to be made in between the Wendar elves and Shadow Elves. From what is said in the PWAs I do see how such a connection may be made but I in no way think that it is the only interpretation which can be made and I certainly don't think that it is perhaps the best interpretation. >It might be a subjective view, but I personally like the idea of the Wendar >elves being closely related to the Shadow Elves. It explains the Shadow Elves >impersonation of Wendar elves to infiltrate Alfheim. A shadow elf claiming >he/she belongs to a Wendarian clan, the Gelbalf, for example, wouldn't be >lying if he/she did indeed belong to the Gelbalf clan. The alfheim elves, >knowing of the only Gelbalf elves being from Wendar would be inclined to >believe the infiltrator... I dislike the view of Wendar elves being closely related to Shadow Elves because it insinuates that the Wendar elves would have had access to Blackmoor technology during the GRoF. Now unless they did an Aquarendi thing and just followed a different immortal (in this case I'd like to suggest something to do with an immortal who may have been mortal at this time called Enoreth who kept the Wendar elves intact but was later only worshipped by the Geffron elves as perhaps the Wendar elves began to follow the Korrigans or something) who taught them not to go to technology. I am rather strong on the Wendar elves not having access to technology or at the very least if we assume that the Wendar elves did come from the Blackmoor region as I see the whole GRoF and destruction of Vulcania as cleansing Mystara of a great deal of Blackmoor technology. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:21:15 -0600 (CST) From: Daniel Reece Buhler Subject: [Mystara] Original D&D Modules. I'm thinking about filling out my collection of these, and was wondering/hoping some of you could provide me with some information on the following modules; B 1-3, 5, 7+ X 2-5, 7-8, 10-11, 14+(?) CM 2, 5, 10+(?) M 3 Here's what I'd like to know; PLOT- I'm more interested in knowing the quality and playability of it than the specifics. Still, details would be appreciated. SETTING MATERIAL- What areas and cultures does it detail, and is the information reasonable and useful? OVERALL VALUE/QUALITY- I think that speaks for itself. Thanks in advance, D.R. Buhler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:59:23 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Subject: Re: [Mystara] AC 1014 Almanac Part 1 It is wonderful to see one of the big projects finished. However, I am having a little problem. I can't find part 8 anywhere. I haven't received it and I wasn't able to locate it in the digests, altough all the rest was there. Was it just my bad luck, or you made a little mistake, Fabrizio, when sending it. If it is just me, could you please resend it to me, personally. Andre Martins acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:53:52 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elven Migrations > > I don't have the Savage Baronies set, but the answer is probably > >in there. There's a people ( the Espan or Ispan ) that are the > >spanish-like influence on the Savage Coast. Their arrival apparently dates > >back only 100 years. So where did they come from? They must have had their > >spanish-like culture before they got to the Savage Coast, so perhaps the > >Belcadiz got their spanish-like culture from the original Espan culture > >and not the Savage Coast one... So it remains to be seen where the Espan > >came from, and how the Belcadiz got there before ending up in Glantri... > >Again this is just my conjecture... It is possible that two spanish-like > >cultures developed independently... > > > > > IMO the Kerendans (one of the 3 Thyatian tribes with Hattians and Thyatians) > have an italian-like culture (BTW this could also explain the origins of the > Malapietra in Glantri) and the Ispans colonist are actually a group of > Kerendans. There's no much difference between italians and spanish cultures, > they come both from a common latin (Thyatian) root. > Anyway I don't think that the Belcadiz originate from the Vyalia elves that > inhabit the area around Kerendas, because Vyalia are often described as > reclusive. The Kerendan region, IMO, is a combination of Spanish and Italian cultures, and it gave rise to the Savage Baronies and Caurenze, as was mentioned. The Vyalia elves could have had a major schism in their history; perhaps one side associated too much with humans, and this faction ended up fleeing to Glantri. The Belcadiz elves arrived some time around when the Flaem did, so they have obviously not been there TOO long. I think that it is also feasible for the elves of the Savage Coast and Belcadiz could be related: elves wqould not have adopted so completely human Spanish culture from Thyatis in only a century, so the roots of the Spanish culture must have been in place in the region long before then. Either of these makes sense to me. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:19:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Technology (Was: [Mystara] Re: Elven Migrations) On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Stan wrote: > I dislike the view of Wendar elves being closely related to Shadow Elves > because it insinuates that the Wendar elves would have had access to Blackmoor > technology during the GRoF. and > I am rather strong on the Wendar elves not having access to technology > or at the very least if we assume that the Wendar elves did come from > the Blackmoor region as I see the whole GRoF and destruction of > Vulcania as cleansing Mystara of a great deal of Blackmoor technology. Just for the record, I'd like to point out that I don't believe that Blackmoor's technological advances were as massive and great as they sometimes may appear to be. Most of Blackmoor's tech came from studying artifacts left behind by the SS Beagle, a lone star freighter that crash landed on Mystara. The reason it crash landed is due to the effects of Mystara's magic on it's engines. The bottom line seems to be that Mystara's magic (likely that energy generated by the World Crust, although the DA series has it that the unique nature of Blackmoor, stationed on a magical area, was the cause)- Mystara's magic and the tech of the Beagle are not entirely compatible. The Blackmoor tech would, IMO, have to have been at least as much magical as scientific, in order to work properly (and even then you have problems, as evidenced by the fact that the tech blew up in the GRoF). There is little to no evidence that Blackmoorians possessed space flight technology; indeed, their most advanced form of tech seems to be that of Nuclear fission- powerful, admittedly. The tech of Blackmoor seems not to have spread terribly far- the Thonian empire appears to have been little in possession of any of it. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that, at it's height, the tech of Blackmoor would not have been as terrible as people seem to think- there was likely no gunpowder; by looting the Beagle, the Blackmoorians seem to have bypassed certain stages of techonological evolution as we know them... I seem to be rambling, but my bottom line is that I don't think worries about Blackmoor era tech surviving and suddenly proliferating and ruining Mystara are well founded. Let me know what the rest of you think. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:19:09 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] AC 1014 Almanac Part 1 I didn't get part 8 either, so can you post it again Fabrizio? Thanks. Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S pontificated: > > having a little problem. I can't find part 8 anywhere. I haven't received > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:26:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Original D&D Modules. On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Daniel Reece Buhler wrote: > B 1-3, 5, 7+ B1- In search of the Unknown; a sparse module. A few encounters, a big dungeon that you fill in the encounters for. Not too much there. Good for nostalgic reasons. B2- The Keep on the Borderlands. One of the best low level modules. Features a large dungeon, filled to the brim with monsters. A quest to destroy an evil temple therein. A town to rest in. Depending on how much work you like to put into it, it could be a short adventure or a campaign. > X 2-5, 7-8, 10-11, 14+(?) X2- Castle Amber. The original module featuring those wacky Amberites of Glantri. A dungeon filled with all sorts of strange creatures; highlight is the dimensional gateway to Averoigne, a medieval land in France. X3- Curse of Xanathon. IMO, one of the best modules made. Features a detective story to find out what is behind the evils in this town of Rhoona (in Vestland). There is a sense of urgency, as the players only have so long to complete things before Rockhome closes in. Some of the best, most classic NPC villains ever (Xanathon, Draco Stormsailer). A must have. X4, X5, X10- The Master of the Desert Nomads series. Must haves as well. Introduce the Master of Hule and his minions, as they are about to invade Darokin and lands east. The first two detail a small party's plot to stop him; the third is a war machine module that pits the party as diplomatic envoys, then generals in command of the resistance forces to the Master's army. I don't have X10; if you find somewhere you can get it, let me know. :) There are no modules beyond X13: Crown of Ancient Glory. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:26:50 -0500 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Elven Migrations >>>What I was trying to say by making the Wdnar elves a colony not near >>>Blackmoor (BTW I consider Blackmoor to placed as the Outer World >>>Postcataclysmic Map from the Hollow World boxed set places it) to account for >>>the way that the Wendar Elves weren't wiped out by the GRoF, also to explain >>>how they weren't affected by technology and also to perhaps explain why they >>>have such a dim view of their early history. >> >>Well, "Near to Blackmoor", as someone else mentioned earlier, is entirely >>relative. Being on the continent of Brun, during the Blackmoor era ( with >>Blackmoor on Skothar ) could be considered "near" to Blackmoor compared to >>Grunland and Evergrun, which were on the other side of the planet. > >WRT Blackmoor I sort of agree that its location is not important, it depends >where its prefered location on Brun is IMHO. Because the way I see it, is that >Blackmoor and everything near it was destroyed during the GRoF so we don't >want Wendar too close to Blackmoor at this time. Exactly, so the Wendar elves were most likely not right beside the nation of Blackmoor. >I still have problems with you idea of Wendar elves coming from Blackmoor elves. >My interpretation of the things written in the PWAs, which is the only source >of such information AFAIK, is that the Wendar elves aren't part of those four >clans and aren't connected with the Blackmoor elves at all. I am not going >to quote the passage here but what I get out of it is that the Wendar elves >migrated from Evergrun around the same time as the Blackmoor Elves - it doesn't >actually say that they're connected to them. Therefore I don't see the need for >the connection that seems to be made in between the Wendar elves and Shadow >Elves. From what is said in the PWAs I do see how such a connection may be >made but I in no way think that it is the only interpretation which can be made >and I certainly don't think that it is perhaps the best interpretation. Well, I don't think I've directly quoted the main references that have led me to my interpretation, so I'll do that now. Here they are: PWA2, pg 77 "Many waves of Evergrun elves emigrated to the lands near Blackmoor and settled there, and many elven communities perished when Blackmoor was destroyed. The elves of Wendar survived..." Hollow World DM's Sourcebook, pg 10 "Four clans of elves colonize in the region near Blackmoor" Both seem to be referring to the same event, that being the colonization of the lands near Blackmoor. I'm not going to say that it's the only interpretation possible, but it's a fairly simple connection to make and seems very straight forward to me. >I dislike the view of Wendar elves being closely related to Shadow Elves >because it insinuates that the Wendar elves would have had access to Blackmoor >technology during the GRoF. Now unless they did an Aquarendi thing and just >followed a different immortal (in this case I'd like to suggest something to >do with an immortal who may have been mortal at this time called Enoreth who >kept the Wendar elves intact but was later only worshipped by the Geffron >elves as perhaps the Wendar elves began to follow the Korrigans or something) >who taught them not to go to technology. I am rather strong on the Wendar >elves not having access to technology or at the very least if we assume that >the Wendar elves did come from the Blackmoor region as I see the whole GRoF >and destruction of Vulcania as cleansing Mystara of a great deal of Blackmoor >technology. The connection between the Blackmoor elves and the elves of Wendar doesn't imply that the Wendar elves would have anymore access to Blackmoorian technology than the Shadow Elves would. It seems that there were only few scattered groups left anywhere near Blackmoor, and there might not have been any left that could operate the technology, let alone understand it. The immortals would have also made sure that most of it was destroyed, or that the Wendar elves returned to their natural ways in order to survive. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:59:33 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Original D&D Modules. Got a test to study, so this will be short. Daniel Reece Buhler pontificated: > I'm thinking about filling out my collection of these, and was > wondering/hoping some of you could provide me with some information on the > following modules; Generally speaking the later the module, the better it is in terms of moving from randomly stocked dungeon, to better thought out adventure. I will give a short discription of the modules that I remember, which might not be correct. > B 1-3, 5, 7+ B1 is a random dungeon. B2 is not that great (somewhat illogical placement of monsters), but alot of people love it for the nostogia value. 3, 5, 8 are ok. I like 7 and I heard 10 is good. 11 and 12 are for more begining DM and are somewhat simplelistic, but not bad. If you can get B1-9. > X 2-5, 7-8, 10-11, 14+(?) 2 is a classic, so is 4 and 5. Get them if you can. 3 have good campaign material, but don't remember much about the adventure itself. 7 is underwater adventure, and 8 is ok. Definatly 10 and 11 in your collection, especially you are interesting in Mystara, which is what I'm assuming here. And there are no modules after 13. > CM 2, 5, 10+(?) Most CM and M are pretty good. 2 is set in Norworld and some what a sequel to 1. 5 is a solo adventure, and is not set in Mystara, I don't recommand it because it use the red viewer thingy to read the entries, and at least to me it gives me headache after a while (and I could never finish the module because of it). Nothing above 10. > M 3 Pretty good, no specific campaign material on Mystara, but gives a real sense of epic adventure appropreiat for that level. If you are interested in more detail on any of it, feel free to write me. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:40:09 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] AC 1014 Almanac Part 1 >I didn't get part 8 either, so can you post it again Fabrizio? To have a third voice: Please post part 8 (again?). *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:25:02 +0200 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: [Mystara] Almanac 1014 Hey,I didn't get part 8 too.Fabrizio,could you please send it again? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 10:08:25 EST From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Technology (Was: [Mystara] Re: Elven Migrations) > Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that, at it's height, the tech of > Blackmoor would not have been as terrible as people seem to think- there > was likely no gunpowder; by looting the Beagle, the Blackmoorians seem to > have bypassed certain stages of techonological evolution as we know > them... I seem to be rambling, but my bottom line is that I don't think > worries about Blackmoor era tech surviving and suddenly proliferating and > ruining Mystara are well founded. > > Let me know what the rest of you think. I agree with you. I doubt anyone on Mystara after the GRoF would be able to use, let alone understand or reproduce any of the blackmoor tech.. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 22:59:42 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] AC 1014 Almanac Part 1 At 23.59 24/03/97 -0300, you wrote: > > >It is wonderful to see one of the big projects finished. However, I am >having a little problem. I can't find part 8 anywhere. I haven't received >it and I wasn't able to locate it in the digests, altough all the rest was >there. Was it just my bad luck, or you made a little mistake, Fabrizio, >when sending it. If it is just me, could you please resend it to me, >personally. > I've just sent Part 8 again to everyone, because I realized that I didn't receive it too. If I don't receive it also this time I'll divide it into 2 smaller messages, maybe the problem is that Part 8 is too big (41 Kb). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:24:35 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] AC 1014 Almanac Part 8b INTERVIEW WITH COMMANDER IN CHIEF BRODERICK OF THE NEW ALPHATIAN CONFEDERATE EMPIRE by: Dorrik Rockforge and Belzamith Fingertackles. Belzamith : Commander Broderick, thank you very much for receiving us in your new headquarters here on the fantastic island that is Ionace. I guess no one can enter in this sensible building without a good reason. Broderick : And you're right. This building, as well as the Parliament a few blocks away, is well protected. Not only by mundane means, such as guards, but also with powerful magical means. All magical knowledge was not lost when Alphatia sank beneath the waves a few years ago, and this building has been enchanted with wide-area, permanent spells that protect it against such things like magical spying or unwanted teleportation, in the manner that was done with the Imperial Palace. Belzamith : I see, but do you have plans to make it look, well, better? I mean, it is so spartan... Maybe some paintings on the walls would... Dorrik : It just looks like a military building, stupid gnome. Practical and effective. In one word, dwarvish. In fact, I would even say it goes along quite well with the city of Denwarf-Hurgon. Why did you choose to establish the center of the government here, Commander? Broderick : Well, many reasons converged to this place being chosen. One of them was that we needed many buildings that could host our government officials immediately until we could construct new ones, and the abandoned buildings of Denwarf-Hurgon, that had resisted the sinking and earthquakes... Dorrik : ... they had been built by dwarves... Broderick : ... were a good solution. Dorrik : But there are other free buildings elsewhere, including the ones on Aquas, where former Emperor Zandor had his quarters. Certainly not as sturdy as good old dwarves' works, but... Broderick : Definitely. But the seat of the confederated government is a very symbolic place to the people of Alphatia. Ionace is doubly symbolic : It is not situated on any of the member state, making it a sort of neutral ground, and it was once part of mainland Alphatia, helping giving to the peoples that form the NACE a sentiment of unity and loyalty to the old ways of Alphatia and Empress Eriadna. Dorrik : Is Eriadna still alive in the Hollow World, as the rumor goes, or was that only a plot to make the various kingdoms unite together? Broderick : Indeed she is. The Hollow World exists, as has proven the return of the now famous Karameikan Polar Expedition. And Alphatia exists down there. The Council does rule in Empress Eriadna's name. Belzamith : Then, why did you keep the information for yourself all that time, until you had to unveil the secret because of the return of the polar expedition? What other grand secrets are you hiding? Do you intend to take the Hollow World for yourself? Broderick : There is nothing hidden here. The existence of the Hollow World was public, even though nobody really believed in it until recently. We didn't reveal the survival of Alphatia within the Hollow World because at the time the NACE wasn't united and stable, and this event could have caused trouble in the population of the Confederation, or even an aggression from an outside power. Now that the country is more stable and strong, we don't have such concerns any more. Belzamith : But the initial revelation of the existence of the Hollow World wasn't the fact of the Alphatians either, but Claransa's famous book. Isn't there someone out there trying to hide the Hollow World? Are you trying to keep it for you alone? Broderick : Not at all. The Hollow World is not ours, and the NACE has no plans to conquer it. As the Council declared, all friendly nations like Karameikos are welcomed to use the North Pole route and establish permanent contact or trade with the Hollow World nations, including Alphatia. Dorrik : Commander, you say the NACE has no intentions to conquer the Hollow World. But you have conducted more than one successful wars lately, in Esterhold and elsewhere, and you seem quite aggressive, militarily speaking. Does this mean you intend to launch wars in some areas of the outer world? Broderick : Not at all. The NACE is a peaceful nation. The wars you are speaking of were not wars, but internal interventions to overthrow dictators and help reestablish order. I don't think anyone will regret the fall of the kings of Esterhold. We have signed treaties with various nations, and we've ratified the Isle of Dawn Treaty with Thyatis. Belzamith : Now, does that have to do with political or economic reasons? Who is trying to gain power here? Dorrik : Hmmmff. Who cares? Most people only want to know if there will be a war, not why. They don't care why their house will be burned, just if it will. Belzamith : Well, I think all people have the right to know precisely what is going on in our marvellous world, from the actual effects to what is going on behind the scenes. After all, there must be some mastermind behind everything... Dorrik : By Kagyar! Broderick : Well, if you must know, it's both. Our money is going into rebuilding the Esterhold Peninsula and the Isle of Dawn, and no one wants to conquer anything else either. No, there is no mastermind trying to make peace. It's just what everyone wants right now. The last war with Glantri was enough for Alphatia. Belzamith : So you claim... Dorrik : Oh, give it up... most people can figure out what is happening on their own. Belzamith : It's the principal of the thing that you have to ask all the question. Broderick : Please, gentlemen, you seem more warlike than the NACE will ever be... Dorrik : Oh, sorry. It's just that Belzamith's questions are so stupid. Belzamith : What? Dorrik : So, not war but market ventures? Broderick : Yes. Within the Confederation, since we have a vast market and different regional products, and goods are no longer taxed when travelling all around the Confederation. As for other nations, the Council has signed trade agreements with Aeria and with Karameikos, and hopes to sign other such agreements with the Western Defense League or other countries soon. We also hope to find a way to establish reliable means of communication and travel with the Hollow World and Alphatia. Belzamith : So, dear Commander, if the NACE has no military plans, you'll have some spare time. You see, I believe that everyone has someone with whom he is destined to have a great love story. Maybe you'll have time to find that woman now? Dorrik : Bel, you bother him with your questions. Broderick : The army is my family and Alphatia is my love. I serve Empress Eriadna and answer to the Council. Dorrik : What is this Council of the NACE exactly, Commander? Broderick : The Council is the ruling body of the Confederation. It is the existence of that very body that turned the New Alphatian Empire into a Confederation, because it is composed of the rulers of every nation that composes the NACE. It decides policies that concern more than one country, like foreign policy, treaties, trade agreements, and such. Votes are held at the majority, except for very special matters, with the Commander in Chief having a vote in case of a tie. The Council rules in the name of Empress Eriadna of mighty Alphatia, who lives and rules in the Hollow World. Note that the Esterhold Peninsula has only one siege at the Parliament, held by the President of the Republic. Dorrik : Concerning the Republic of Esterhold, what will it be like now? A republic like that of Darokin? I also heard a rumor of a true democracy, similar to what the Hin have in the Five Shires or Leeha. Broderick : Frankly, I don't know. I know Favian Vern quite well, since we have fought together in Blackrock and then in Verdan. I deeply respect him and his ideas, and I know of his profound belief in the virtues of democracy. But I don't know how he will do this on such a scale. I mean, the population is not much more numerous than that of the Five Shires, at least if we don't count the wild Jennites that live scattered throughout the Peninsula, but the country is 100 times bigger. And most of the population, especially the Jennites, is illiterate. But I'm sure Favian doesn't want to restrict voting to the rich, as is the case in Darokin. I don't believe there will be any election for some time, I would say at least not for another year. Belzamith : So, who is your favorite candidate for those elections? Dorrik : He just told you there would be no elections in the near future, so how could he have a favorite, uh? Broderick : Yes you're right, it's too soon to tell. Moreover, I wouldn't tell you. Whatever, I can't see any other candidate for the moment; I think Favian Vern is the only person capable of holding this position. Dorrik : With this new system being set up in Esterhold, and the fact that the Council, as you described it, seems also to be run in a democratic way, will the whole NACE promote this new system at the level of the Confederation? Will the countries of the NACE all become democracies, and the NACE the biggest democracy of Mystara? Broderick : I don't think so. At least, I'm not in favor of it. Democracy is appealing, at least in theory, but I strongly believe in a strong, firm rule. Democracy may be dangerous. Remember that the NACE remains an empire, ruled by Empress Eriadna. It is true that the Council functions as a democracy at its level, but this is a democracy of kings, not a democracy of the people like it will probably be in Esterhold. And it is not the role of the Council to dictate the kind of government each member state must have; each nation retains most of its prerogatives, including the right to edict its laws, taxes, and of course form of government. Belzamith : Commander, don't you think that illusions are neat spells, capable of making a bunch of bright lights and fancy noises? How often do you cast them? Are they effective on the battlefield? Dorrik : Commander Broderick isn't a stupid illusionist gnome. He isn't even one of those haughty wizards, he's a soldier, like a sturdy dwarf. He can't cast your little tricky spells. Belzamith : Oh, right, but he has many wizards at his service, doesn't he? They can cast illusions... Dorrik : Oh Kagyar! Commander, please excuse my friend and his *stupid* questions, and thank you for your time and your truthful answers. Broderick : I thank you for your interest in the NACE. Belzamith: Thank you very much, Sir. TIMELINE FOR THE NEW ALPHATIAN EMPIRE, AC 1013 Here is a recap of major events that took place in the year AC 1013 which were only given a brief mention in last year's Almanac. NUWMONT 2, AC 1013: Assault on Blackrock Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock, Esterhold Peninsula. KW Description: The combined forces of Seashield and Bellissaria, under the direction of Commander in Chief Broderick, invade Blackrock on the Esterhold Peninsula. Numerous troops disembark from submersible galleys in Skyfyr's harbor, while ships disgorge more troops at the outer limits of the city and in other strategic places all around the kingdom. At the same time, the rebels, warned of the incoming assault by Favian Vern, again leave their underground hideouts and participate in the attack with arms supplied by Commander Broderick. What This Means: With the full military and magical support of all member kingdoms of the New Alphatian Empire, Commander Broderick should swiftly put an end to King Xanthus's oppressive rule in the city of Skyfyr. NUWMONT 7, AC 1013: Pegataurs Recognized Location: Floating Ar. KW Description: King Qissling finally accepts to recognize the pegataurs - winged half-elven centaurs - as full citizens of Floating Ar. What This Means: After many strikes that have prevented most transportation between the floating isles or with the other nations - skyships and magic do not suffice - the government has been forced to accede to the pegataurs' request. The life of most pegataurs will not change much, however, since most of them will continue to serve as transports for hire. Those that are wizards are now nobles, and some adventurous fighters enlist in the so far nearly-nonexistent army of the isles. NUWMONT 10, AC 1013: Combat in Blackrock Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock, Esterhold Peninsula. KW Description: Fighting continues in the streets of Skyfyr. Despite the ongoing onslaught of the more numerous troops of the New Alphatian Empire, King Xanthus's loyal troops stand firm - they were prepared for the invasion. Though it is not completely repaired, Xanthus's flying man-o-war participates in the defense of the city and the palace. Part of the city is no more under his control, however, as is most of the country outside of Skyfyr. NUWMONT 14, AC 1013: Xanthus Asks for Help Location: Faraway, Verdan, Esterhold Peninsula. KW Description: King Xanthus's top advisor, Bargle, meets King Nicodemus of Verdan. He asks him to commit troops to the defense of Blackrock, for, he says, if Blackrock falls, so will Verdan. King Nicodemus answers he has no troops to spare, since he himself has problems with rebellious Jennites. Moreover, Broderick's troops block all routes between the two countries: Verdan navy is no match for the Alphatian ships and submersibles, and the inland roads are under Broderick's control. NUWMONT 23, AC 1013: Location for New Capital Chosen Location: Aquas. KW Description: The New Alphatian Council decides that they should have a new capital which is easier to reach for commoners than Aquas, yet still be a hard place to invade. After much deliberation, Monster Island is chosen as a likely spot. The island is inhabited by monsters and rugged terrain, which makes it hard to invade. As well, the abandonned dwarven city of Denwarf-Hurgon makes the perfect defensive position. The location is also agreed upon as it belongs to none of the kingdoms of the New Alphatian Empire, making it the ideal neutral grounds. Work forces are ordered to start rebuilding the ruined city and immediately set out for Sanctuary, the miner-town currently located on Monster Island. What This Means: The Alphatians are about to put a more stable force unto the still officially unclaimed island. NUWMONT 23, AC 1013: Skyship Produced in Aeria Location: Aeria, Alatian Islands. KW Description: The first skyship is launched in the skies of Aeria since it was freed from Thyatian rule. It is a military skyship, something that will be very useful to Commander Broderick in his incoming military campaign in Esterhold. What This Means: The skyship prototypes constructed by the magical college for the Thyatians these last years had been systematically sabotaged by Alphatian loyalists. Now that Aeria has been granted independence, they have stopped their sabotages, and thanks to the research done under Thyatian's control, the first Aerian skyship can go on her maiden flight today. The New Alphatian Empire will now be able to make herself a new skyship fleet. NUWMONT 25, AC 1013: Xanthus's Troops Retreat to Palace Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock, Esterhold Peninsula. KW Description: The remaining troops loyal to King Xantus, hardpressed by Broderick's, retreat to the royal palace in Skyfyr, the last place they control. The rest of the city is now under Broderick's military control. VATERMONT 1, AC 1013: Hard-Ball Season Canceled Location: Aquas. KW Description: The Council of the New Alphatian Empire announces there will be no Hard-Ball season this year because few teams have had time to train, and the Super-Hard-Ball stadium is not ready in Sanctuary. All member states of the New Alphatian Empire are invited to form teams for the next year. VATERMONT 2, AC 1013: Floating Ar Joins New Alphatian Empire Location: Floating Ar. KW Description: King Qissling of Floating Ar reportedly agrees to join the New Alphatian Empire. What This Means: Floating Ar becomes the 8th country of the New Alphatian Council. VATERMONT 9, AC 1013: Floating Ar Asks Permission to Move Location: Aquas. KW Description: King Qissling of Floating Ar asks the Council for permission to move the floating islands some 350 miles northeastward, right above the unclaimed Yannivey Islands, and use them to grow crops in the forthcoming years. The Council agrees. What This Means: Since the disappearance of Alphatia, Floating Ar has been almost totally dependent on not-so-nearby states to get supplies - especially food. Realizing the situation could not last forever - and fearing food shortage if a problem were to happen -, the king opted for that solution. The Yanniveys are a lawless land, sparsely inhabited by monsters and brigands. VATERMONT 16, AC 1013: Blackrock Falls Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock, Esterhold Peninsula. KW Description: The last of King Xanthus's troops in Skyfyr surrender to Commander Broderick. Xanthus himself escapes to sanctuary in Verdan, where King Nicodemus prepares his own troops for the expected invasion by the New Alphatian forces. Commander Broderick designates Favian Vern as governor of the country for all non-military aspects, until the Alphatian Council elects a new king. VATERMONT 19, AC 1013: A New King for Blackrock Location: Skyfyr, Blackrock, Esterhold Peninsula. KW Description: The Alphatian Council names Favian Vern King of Blackrock. As his first official act, King Favian declares all Jennite natives of Esterhold free - no longer are they to be slaves or denied Alphatian citizenship. There is much rejoicing in the streets of Skyfyr. Chaos soon follows as the various strata of Blackrock society adjust to the new order - but King Favian and his appointed government prove themselves equal to each new challenge. What This Means: King Favian receives financial, as well as military and political, support from the Council. FLAURMONT 22, AC 1013: Alpha Joins New Alphatian Empire Location: Alpha, Norwold. KW Description: King Ericall declares Alpha is the 10th member of the Alphatian Council. What This Means: Ericall thinks this is the best defense against the Heldannic progression. He asks for troops in exchange. THAUMONT 4, AC 1013: Floating Ar Flies North Location: Floating Ar. KW Description: Floating Ar begins its long trip north to the Yannivey Islands. What This Means: This involves much magic, especially aerial magic. Wizards from all over the New Alphatian Empire participate, since it is a great occasion to improve their knowledge of aerial magic and the way mortal magic interacts with immortal magic (i.e. the Isles themselves). The magical college of Aeria also throws in its knowledge, despite the vast amount of resources plundered during Thyatian domination. The trip will not be without a problem, however, since many powerful wizards of Ar continue their dangerous experiments while their estates are being moved. YARTHMONT 10, AC 1013: Thothia Joins New Alphatian Empire Location: Edairo, Thothia, Isle of Dawn. KW Description: Pharaoh Ramenhotep XXIV of Thothia signs a treaty granting him a seat on the New Alphatian Council and adding Thothia to the New Alphatian Empire. The Pharaoh also declares that Aeria, East Portage, Ekto and Trikelios are now independent from Thothia, but they also join the Empire. What This Means: The New Alphatian Council has five new members, and gains a firm presence on the Isle of Dawn. The three small kingdoms on the Isle of Dawn are granted financial aid by the Council to help in the rebuilding after the war. YARTHMONT 27, AC 1013: Alpha Gets Extra Troops Location: Alpha, Norwold. KW Description: After joining the New Alphatian Empire, King Ericall asked for more troops to help him stand ground against further Heldannic incursions. Commander Broderick dispatches some available units in Alpha. What This Means: Ericall does not intend to use these troops offensively - he already finds it difficult just defending the few territories that remain loyal to him. He hopes the Heldannic Knights will see this as a sign that the New Alphatian Empire will back him if they should invade. Klarmont 19, 1013: Capital Completed Location: Sanctuary, Monster Island. KW Description: The new Parliament building, that will from now on hold the Alphatian Council's meetings, is completed. Several blocks around the Parliament have also been rebuilt and are ready for habitation. It is located near the city of old Denwarf-Hurgon, and most of the Representations and Embassies are still temporarily assigned to buildings in the dwarven ity. The Council has yet to decide on a new name for the capital city. What This Means: This location has been chosen because many of the buildings of Denwarf-Hurgon remained fully functional despite the sinking of Alphatia and the numerous earthquakes. Upper Denwarf-Hurgon has been freed of monsters, and its buildings may be used by the Council as it sees fit. The construction of the Parliament made heavy use of magic, both to speed up the process and to secure the building from magical scrying, uncontrolled teleportation, and such. FYRMONT 12, AC 1013: Earthquake in the Alphatian Sea Location: Alphatian Sea and surrounding countries. Description: A more powerful than usual earthquake in the Alphatian Sea makes some damages in Sanctuary, and doesn't help in the redigging of the Pit on Aegos either. What This Means: Minor earthquakes happen quite often since the sinking of Alphatia, but it has been some time since the last major one. Sages still work on discovering when this will end - or at least on predicting the major ones. As Sanctuary is near the epicenter, the earthquake causes important damage there: mnemonic mineral mines collapse, hastily-built buildings in the city of Sanctuary don't resist, but the dwarven-built Denwarf-Hurgon and the most recent official buildings and houses do resist. What the PCs Can Do: Well-equipped rescue teams are needed - - and may well find themselves trapped by further collapses caused by minor earthquakes the following days. AMBYRMONT 3, AC 1013: Floating Ar Drops Anchor Location: New Floating Ar position, above the Yannivey Islands. KW Description: Floating Ar has completed its relocation to the Yanniveys. Those who helped are rewarded as promised. King Qissling declares the Yannivey Islands are now part of Floating Ar; everyone can help in gaining effective control of the land. Those who seize control of land and register to the royal palace are automatically granted that land; if they are name-level spellcasters they also gain a title in the process. Territory seized by troops dispatched by the New Alphatian Empire, or by mercenaries hired by King Qissling, become property of the crown. Commander Broderick recalls some troops from Blackrock for the occasion. What the PCs Can Do: This is a formidable opportunity for high-level PCs to gain dominions, and titles if they happen to be spellcasters. They will soon discover that they are not viewed as equals by wizards who own an estate on the floating islands. Even if the PCs are low-level, they can find employment as mercenaries. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #27 **************************** Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:06:07 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #28 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 60965b26381dab68a0e59883b98e7df1 mystara-digest Thursday, March 27 1997 Volume 02 : Number 028 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:24:29 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] AC 1014 Almanac Part 8a EVENT OF THE YEAR - ----------------- This chapter is dedicated to the event of the year. In it, the reader will find all the information that he needs concerning the event that has captured the most attention or wonderment of the people of Mystara. This year, two events ran neck and neck, and it finally took a coin toss to determine which to talk about. The first was the creation of the NACE and the return to glory of the Alphatian Empire. The other incredible feat was the return of the Karameikan Polar Expedition as proof that the Hollow World existed. And the coin toss chose the return of the Alphatian Empire. Now known as the NACE, the fact that the scattered remains of an Empire that sank beneath the sea can unite to form a new Empire that is still a military and economic power is remarkable indeed. This chapter will therefore concentrate on the nation of Alphatia. HISTORY OF ALPHATIA The following historical synopsis is given in the traditional Alphatian Calendar of AY (Alphatian Year) counted from the Alphatian Landfall on Mystara. The earlier dates are only approximations to the roundest number. To find the equivalent Thyatian Year , simply subtract 1000 years, with a negative number indicating BC and a positive number giving a year in AC. Therefore, the current year, AC 1014, is the year AY 2014 in the Alphatian calendar. Also because the Alphatian year and the Thyatian year do not use the same month as start of their respective years, the difference is in fact 1000 years minus two months. [The interesting thing about this research, however, is the fact that we have learned that the Alphatians seem to have come from another world. If they are indeed "space invaders," does that not mean there could not be others? Have we not therefore answered our own question as to whether or not there is life off of Mystara asked in Joshuan's Almanac? I always find it amusing to note that the answers to present and future questions can often be found by researching the past. B.F.] AY -3000: On the homeworld of the Alphatians, the Alphatians defeat the Cypris civilization and begin to be assimilated by it. AY -2500: The Alphatian/Cypris civilization uses its magical knowledge to begin colonization and conquest of the nearby planets and exploration of the elemental planes. AY -2000: Alphatian aggression has gradually been supplanted by Cypric self-absorption; other planetary conquests and colonies are left to fend for themselves as Alphatian study of magic turns inward. AY -500: The Alphatian civilization has achieved total mastery of its environment; the great universities are at the peak of their powers and are just beginning to indulge in serious scholastic competitions and squabbles. AY -90: The Followers of Flame begin their serious rivalry with the Followers of Air. AY -27: Sporadic violence breaks out between the Followers of Flame and the Followers of Air. AY -10: A temporary peace results from one academian's proposal of the Flame vs. Air essay debate. AY -9: Emperor Alphaks I arbitrarily declares the Flames to have won the debate. Outrage, protest, rebellion and revolt result. The Followers of Flame war with the Followers of Air. AY 0: The war between the Followers of Flame and the Followers of Air reaches it zenith. Emperor Alphaks I is banished. The homeworld of the Alphatians is destroyed. The Followers of Air settle on what was formely the Alphatian Continent on the world of Mystara. They begin to conquer and assimilate the various primitive tribes in the area. AY 20: The Alphatians establish a peaceful contact with the Thothians and adopt their calendar for Mystara as their own after changing the name of the months. AY 250: Disgruntled non-mage Alphatians colonize the island known as Ochalea where they intend to build a place where non-mages will not be looked down upon. AY 300: The Alphatians displace various other conquered cultures which do not adapt well to their society to Ochalea, including a culture that enjoys honor and slanted-roof architecture. This culture begins to dominate over all the others in Ochalea. AY 808: The Alphatians decide to bring Thyatis into the Empire. AY 810: The Alphatians finally finish subduing the Thyatian barbarians. AY 998: Governor Lucinius Trenzantenbium of Kerendas assassinates Alphatian wizards and declares himself King of Thyatis. The first Great War between Thyatis and Alphatia begins. AY 1000: The First Thyatian/Alphatian War is at a standstill. The economies of both nations are wrecked. King Lucinius and Emperor Alphas VI conclude a peace treaty in the neutral city of Edairo on the Isle of Dawn. Also liberated are the nations of Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, which then join into the new Empire of Thyatis. AY 1012: The Thyatians violate the Treaty of Edairo and build a trading station called Cape Alpha in the lands of Norwold. AY 1015: Cape Alpha is destroyed by reavers from the Northern Reaches (speculated to have been payed by the Alphatians). AY 1500: Alphatian and Thyatian colonies in Alasiyan coastal areas begin to clash. This starts the famous Three Hundred Year War (actually skirmishes, but called a war by historians to make it sound more grand and important). AY 1728: Alphatian colonies get the upper hand and destroy several Thyatian colonies entirely. AY 1786: An Alphatian lord named Halzunthram arrives in Flaemish lands and defeats the Flaems, effectively assuming control of the area. AY 1788: Halzunthram takes control of the region's ruling council and declares the area a protectorate of Alphatia. The natives unite and rebel against Halzunthram. AY 1828: Forces of Suleiman Al-Kalim drive the Alphatians out of Alasiya. AY 1830: Lord Alexander Glantri captures Halzunthram, confirms the region's independence, and disperses Alphatian presence there. Braejr is renamed Glantri City in his honor. AY 1959: Angered by another Thyatian broken treaty, the Alphatian Emperor commits his military to a sudden assault on Thyatis. Alphatia completly conquers the Isle of Dawn. AY 1960: The Alphatian assault reaches Thyatis City and Emperor Gabrionus V is killed. The Gladiator Thincol the Brave rescues the dead Emperor's daughter, drives the Alphatians out, and becomes the new Emperor of Thyatis. AY 1962: Princess Eriadna becomes the next Empress of Alphatia as her father, Emperor Tylion IV, retires. AY 1985: Empress Eriadna decides to colonize in the west and has a new fortress city built atop the ruins of the station at Cape Alpha destroyed nine and a half centuries before. AY 1992: Empress Eriadna accedes to her son Ericall's demands for a kingdom of his own. She gives him the city of Alpha in Norwold, the empty title of king of that nation, and a great degree of autonomy. AY 2005: Alphatia declares war on Glantri. Thyatis and the Heldannic Territories ally with Glantri. AY 2009: Alphatian armies reach Thyatis city and Emperor Thincol sues for peace. Days latter, the first week without magic destroys Sudsvall and kills Empress Eriadna. The Alphatians press their attack on Glantri, and moments later the Alphatian Continent sinks beneath the waves, destroyed by the wrath of the Immortals. AY 2010: The Alphatian continent appears in the Hollow World. FFrom there, they begin to drive the Heldannic Knights out of the Hollow World. The Heldannic Knights invade the territories of Norwold. Thyatis invades the Isle of Dawn and the Alatian Islands. A mad Emperor Zandor tries to reunite the nations of Alphatia to form a new Empire, but none of the Kings or Queens accept his rulership. Zandor begins conquering the rebellious/traitorous nations. AY 2012: Thyatis is pressed back by Thothia on the Isle of Dawn and forced to relinquish its conquests back to Alphatia. The Alphatian Kings and Queens dispose of Zandor with the help of Prince Haldemar of Haaken, who informs them that Alphatia has survived in the Hollow World. The Kings and Queens form a new council, calling themselves the New Alphatian Empire. Commander Broderick is named Commander in Chief. AY 2013: The New Alphatian Empire reconquers the troublesome Esterhold Peninsula Kingdoms. Thothia and most of the other liberate kingdoms that were occupied by Thyatis willfully join the New Alphatian Empire. AY 2014: The New Alphatian Empire becomes known as the New Alphatian Confederate Empire (NACE) and reveals the existence of the Empire of Alphatia still intact in the Hollow World, as well that Empress Eriadna is still alive. NEW ALPHATIAN CONFEDERATE EMPIRE (NACE) This document is a vulgarization of the constitution of the Confederation (the original version contains many juridical terms), to be used mainly at schools to teach Alphatian students the organization of the country they live in. Readers interested in the original document of AY 2012 and its addendum of AY 2014 can consult them at the library of the Parliament on Ionace (with a special permission) or try to search for a copy at their local library. Political Structure The Confederation is composed of semi-autonomous states. The Confederation is governed by a Council in the name of Empress Eriadna of Alphatia or her heir. Composition of the Council: Each member state has one vote, regardless of size, population level, etc. The voting person is normally the king or queen (or the person holding power) of the country, or his/her representative if he/she cannot attend. Every member state must thus keep a permanent staff of representatives. Anyone present during a council meeting may ask that the Council discusses on any matter, and then call for a vote. A council meeting is held at the demand of a member state. Votes pass if the majority of the representatives vote for it. In case of a deadlock, the Commander in Chief decides whether the measure passes or not. Any measure that would change the Confederation's Constitution must be accepted with unanimous approval. A state wanting to become member of the NACE has to state to the Council it is candidate for membership. A council meeting is organized to discuss and vote on this matter. The state is accepted as a new member if all current members vote for it. A state wanting to leave the NACE has to convoke a council meeting for this purpose. The state can part from the Confederation if all members vote for it. If a state declares independence from the Confederation without obtaining the right to do so, it becomes a renegade state, and the Confederation may decide to intervene to restore its claim on it, be it military, politically, or otherwise. Seat of Government The commonly called Monster Island, formerly part of Alphatia, was claimed by nobody until the creation of the NACE. It thereby becomes the center of the confederate government, and is renamed the Isle of the NACE, or Ionace. The Council holds meeting in a dedicated building on Ionace, called the Parliament. Each member state is granted a patch of land adjacent to the Parliament where they can build their own Representation. Staff of representatives live and work in their Representation and meet in the Parliament. Countries that keep diplomatic ties with the NACE will also be granted land on Ionace, where they can build an Embassy. Representations and Embassies are paid by the countries to which they belong. The Imperial Army is based on Ionace, where it owns buildings, including the Military Headquarters where the Commander in Chief has his office. Until the buildings are completed in Ionace, the government, military and other institutions of the NACE will be assigned currently unoccupied buildings in the abandoned city of Denwarf-Hurgon. Military Structure All armies of the member states are under control of the Confederation. The Confederation can also raise its own army (ie. independent from any state), called the Imperial Army, and use the service of mercenary troops. The Commander in Chief, appointed by the Council, is in command of the military. Member states must spend at least 10% of their national tax income to the upkeep of their army, in the name of the Confederation. Exemption may be granted on a case by case basis, with the approval of the Council and the Commander in Chief. Economics Member states must hand over 10% of their collected taxes to the Imperial Treasury. This tax is collected quarterly, on the 1st of the months of Alphamir (Thaumont), Vertmir (Klarmont), Cyprimir (Ambyrmont), and Burymir (Kaldmont), for the preceding period. A new state must pay upon entrance into the Confederation what would be due for the current period (even though it corresponds to a previous period, when it was not yet member) as a sign of good will, then its taxes are collected following the normal cycle. A state leaving the Confederation must first immediately pay the tax corresponding to the current period before it is allowed to leave; this tax is equal to that it paid for the previous period. The Council decides the way the money in the Imperial Treasury is spent. Common uses include (but are not limited to) : Upkeep of Imperial Army, hiring of mercenary troops, maintenance of governmental buildings, funding of research programs (magic, scientific, medical, etc.), aid to member states (loans, gifts, etc.). Laws and Justice and Festivals Each member state can decide on its national laws, as long as they do not go against the Imperial Laws. Imperial Laws must be enforced in member states. Justice is held by each member state as it sees fit. All schools and colleges within the Confederation must follow the old Alphatian calendar, i.e. opening on Alphamir (Thaumont) 15 and closing on Burymir (Kaldmont) 15. A Hard-Ball tournament is organized by the Confederation each year. Each member state is invited to participate in the tournament; other countries may be invited as guests, as a sign of friendship between that country and the Confederation. The following festivals and holidays are common to all members of the Confederation; each member state can add its national festivals and holidays. - - Alphamir (Thaumont) 1: New Year Day. - - Alphamir (Thaumont) 7: Landfall Day. - - Alphamir (Thaumont) 15: Opening Day (of academic year). - - Sulamir (Flaurmont) 13: Empress Eriadna's Birthday (give a coin to a beggar in her name). - - Sulamir (Flaurmont) 28: Super-Hard-Ball (Hard-Ball final). - - Sudmir (Yarthmont) 15: Howling Day. - - Islamir (Felmont) 15: Doggerel Days. - - Cyprimir (Ambyrmont) 1: Ancestor's Day. - - Hastmir (Sviftmont) 8-15: Wine Festivals. - - Burymir (Kaldmont) 15: Closing Day (of academic year). - - Amphimir (Vatermont) 1: Hard-Ball Season Opening. Original Members of the NACE (Founders of the New Alphatian Empire) - - The Sea-Kingdom of Aquas (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Dawnrim (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Horken (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Lagrius (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Meriander (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Notrion (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Surshield (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). Current Members of the NACE - - The Sea-Kingdom of Aquas (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Dawnrim (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Horken (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Lagrius (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Meriander (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Notrion (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Surshield (Burymir (Kaldmont) 12, AY 2012 (AC 1012)). - - The Kingdom of Blackrock (Amphimir (Vatermont) 28, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Floating Ar (Amphimir (Vatermont) 28, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Alpha (Sulamir (Flaurmont) 22, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Thothia (Sudmir (Yarthmont) 10, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of East Portage (Sudmir (Yarthmont) 10, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The City-State of Ekto (Sudmir (Yarthmont) 10, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The City-State of Trikelios (Sudmir (Yarthmont) 10, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Aeria (Sudmir (Yarthmont) 10, AY 2013 (AC 1013)). - - The Kingdom of Qeodhar (Nyxmir (Nuwmont) 13, AY 2013 (AC 1014)). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:05:29 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: [Mystara] Helena or Helena Was Helena Daphnotarthius (DotE & PWA) suppose to be Helena Ledamiades (WotI). They have the same first names and follow the same Immortal (Valerias) and live in Thyatis City, but one dies (WotI) and other lives on past WotI. Aaron Allston created both but I cant see why he would set the characters up to be confusing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:40:05 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elven Migrations At 23.56 23/03/97 -0500, you wrote: >>* I initially presumed that the Belcadiz elves merely survived the catastrophe or came back up again from underground but there seems to be no provision for this. Because of their Spanish culture it seems likely that the Belcadiz elves migrating from the Savage Coast at some time or another. >Hrm, I'm still discussing this with Fabrizio. It seems that it's impossible for the Belcadiz to have come from the Savage Coast as the spanish culture didn't develop on the Savage Coast until 900 AC. I'll post more on this later. >Joe Duncan Indeed, it is the same thing i have noticed: Ispa colonized the Savage Baronies in AC 900, whereas Belcadiz moved to Glantri in AC 722. I think Bruce just wanted to add a Spanish touch to the campaign, but he didn't think much about Belcadiz origins (he only writes they come from the southern continent...) Another mystery for us historians DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:45:34 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Helena or Helena On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Rob Rickard wrote: >Was Helena Daphnotarthius (DotE & PWA) suppose to be Helena Ledamiades (WotI). >They have the same first names and follow the same Immortal (Valerias) and live in Thyatis City, but one dies (WotI) and other lives on past WotI. >Aaron Allston created both but I cant see why he would set the characters up to be confusing. Helena Daphnotarthius became an admiral later in the war. Helena Ledamiades was a mortal form of Valerias who cursed Thincol. So they are two different persons. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:45:00 +0100 From: Herve MUSSEAU Subject: [Mystara] 1014 almanac The 1014 Mystaran Almanac is noz on my homepage too. BTW, those of you that have subscribed to receive a copy of my page or the text files have had the almanac with it. PS : I have plans to put it in HTML format but this is quite some work and I'm also working on my contribution for the 1015 almanac (besides working to live..) so it may not be ready for quite some time (unless someone volunteers to help). - -- Herve Musseau Primary Email: musseauh@esiee.fr (avoid using this old address) Secondary Email: herve@hotmail.com (use this one instead) Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh I'm a QSQWBEEEGGNFR Mystaran ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:15:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:06:07 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #28 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 60965b26381dab68a0e59883b98e7df1 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] Helena or Helena Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: >On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Rob Rickard wrote: >>Was Helena Daphnotarthius (DotE & PWA) suppose to be Helena Ledamiades (WotI). >>They have the same first names and follow the same Immortal (Valerias) and live in Thyatis City, but one dies (WotI) and other lives on past WotI. >>Aaron Allston created both but I cant see why he would set the characters up to be confusing. >Helena Daphnotarthius became an admiral later in the war. Helena Ledamiades was a mortal form of Valerias who cursed Thincol. So they are two different persons. >Aleksei When I played Riots I played them as two seperate people too, but I had re named Helena Ledamiades to Velena Ledamiades And jacked her age up to 50. I made Helena Daphnotarthius a close family member of her. But I also had Valerias (Ledamiades) use Daphnotarthius to spread the coruption. I could not see why Arron Allston created the two characters with the same first names, Immortals, in the same area.......but left them with different names names. Almost as if he thought he created a new character (Ledamiades in WotI) but forgot about the first one he made (Daphnotarthius in DotE). There are just alike excpt for last names. and the fact that they take on a totaly different paths in the next published released (PWA). Did arron want two Valerias Helenas? one set to destroy Thyatis the other to fight for it? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:36:17 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] 1014 almanac At 16.45 26/03/97 +0100, you wrote: >The 1014 Mystaran Almanac is noz on my homepage too. >BTW, those of you that have subscribed to receive a copy of my page or the text files have had the almanac with it. >PS : I have plans to put it in HTML format but this is quite some work and I'm also working on my contribution for the 1015 almanac (besides working to live..) so it may not be ready for quite some time (unless someone volunteers to help). I'm trying to put in .doc format. If someone is interested it will be available just after Easter. BTW: I don't know if I've already said this, but I've converted Daniel's precious Timeline in .doc format. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:57:12 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] 1014 almanac I've just uploaded the Almanac to MPGN, the name of the file is mys1014.zip. I hope they'll put it the right directory soon. What's happened to the mailing list ? Everyone is busy reading the almanac ? :) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:33:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] 1014 almanac On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >What's happened to the mailing list ? Everyone is busy reading the almanac ? :) Well, it is pretty long... ;) I'm wondering the same myself- I want to know what everyone thinks! :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:30:31 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Boese Subject: [Mystara] The Almanac First off, my sincere compliments on the 1014 Almanac - I noticed the odd spelling and grammar error, but that's only to be expected in a project this large and otherwise pretty much flawless. :) Assuming the 1015 Almanac is already in the works, how do I contribute? It would be a grand thing if Rikard Prospero were to do an article on The Great Hule, which I might be able to humbly help out with... There's more to talk about than can be covered in one message, but here's the first few things that it's inspired me to think about: - ---------- The Extra Continents in the Hollow World: >VATERMONT 23, AC 1014: Princess Ark Leaves Shahjapur [...] >What This Means: The continent of Jomphur was purposely left undeveloped in the HW Boxed Set so individual DMs can populate as they see fit. The purpose of the Mystaran Almanac is to continue to develop the current history of the world, not to make and develop the whole world. I therefore left this part deliberately blank, as each DM will have their own personal favorite to add here. >Hopefully, the members of the Mystaran Mailing List will develop the area someday, and maybe there will be an "official" fully developed Mystara. I might as well take a first stab at this one.. The main continent of the Hollow World covers the cultures that have disappeared from the surface pretty well (they even have an extra, the Merry Pirates). There are a few societies that are missing (such as the original and current Vulture Peninsula inhabitants, the ancient hin (who happened to breed a sort of giant hamster as mounts, now extinct on the surface of Mystara ;) ) and 'wild' rakasta and lupins). However, IMHO, the other two continents are mostly empty - the Immortals plan ahead, after all, and Mystara's history is far from over. :) I expect that one of Atruaghin's current projects is to raise a giant mesa for if/when the Atruaghin Clans are ever threatened (say, by a giant horde of humanoids coming in from the north... perhaps the decimation of the Amerind-like culture leads to the Orcwars of 1020 AC?). And perhaps, until the space is 'used up', Immortals such as Terra and Nyx feel free to use the empty areas to play with and create entirely new species and cultures - just where /did/ the Hivebrood come from, anyway? - ---------- The Future: Mystara has had a long, varied, and unique past - it's future will surely be just as unusual. Let's take a look at what has already been 'officially' and unofficially written about Mystara's future (timeline references from Timeline v1.3, still in progress): >1015 AC: Projected time of the arcade game, "D&D: Tower of Doom". >1017 AC: Projected time of the arcade game, "D&D: Shadow over Mystara". As was stated in the 1014 Almanac, >It is my belief that the events of the arcade game take place in the year AC 1015, while those of the follow up game "D&D: Shadow over Mystara" take place in the year AC 1017. The actual details of the plot will be given in the AC 1015 version of the Mystaran Almanacs. As I've never played, or even seen, these games myself, I'll bow to Micheal Roy, Herve Musseau and Cthulhudrew here. I know that there is a FAQ about the two games floating about somewhere on the 'net, so if you want to find out more, I suggest you try to find it. >1018 AC: Time of the novel, "Dark Knight of Karameikos". Again, from the most recent Almanac, >The novel "Dark Knight of Karameikos" takes place in the year AC 1018 as it mentions it's the 12th year on the throne for the King of Karameikos. This pretty much speaks for itself. >1020 AC: Joint Darokinian and Thyatian operations to protect their interests. All-out war pits humans vs. orcs. This line came from GAZ10: The Orcs of Thar. At the time, the Broken Lands were completely seperate from Glantri, and the Great Crater didn't exist. Here's my projection of the scenario: With the recent Migration (and possible decimation of the Atruaghin Clans), plus raids from the 'orclands' between Aengmor and Ethengar, Darokin (probably with assistance from the rest of the Western Defense League) tries to quell the problem once and for all. Meanwhile, Synn has manipulated Glantri into a confrontation with Thyatis. Because Prince Kol is officially in charge of the humanoids of the Broken Lands, Glantri finds itself in the position of being the focus of yet another war (after just finishing up one against the Ethengar Khanates), only this time against Darokin and Thyatis. How the two Aengmors affect this is anybody's guess... but the Orcwars are likely to last many years. >1050 AC: Ylaruam falls under the rule of Kin faction sultans. Its culture and economy flourishes, but its values decline, and there is a resurgence of traditional tribal enmities. From GAZ2. This seems to have been moved up to 1014 AC, unless the Preceptors regain their power (possibly even around 1020 AC). >1150 AC: The deaths of High King Maramet of Vestland and his sole heir throw the nation into a political turmoil. The Sorona, the enchanted crown of Vestland, is sought by various factions hoping to claim the throne. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X13, .] From GAZ7, this seems to have been ret-conned by the Almanacs to about 970 AC. However, there's nothing to prevent a very similar set of circumstances from arising again... >1200 AC: Great War with the Master of the Desert Nomads. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X10, .] This event seems to be mostly relegated to an alternate timeline. Then again, the Master might always gather his forces and try a second time... nobody ever said villains ever had to be original. :) The Far Future: Who knows what lurks in the future of Mystara? (The Chronomancer knows... ahem. :) ) Here's a few general ideas thrown out, feel free to rip them to shreds, detail them better, or make up your own. :) - Contact is made with EMs - 'Extra-Mystarestrials', aka spelljammers. - Confederations such as the NACE and the WDL become the common form of large-scale government. - Rad/Etienne eventually becomes an Old One. - Karameikos, the Five Shires, Darokin, Restored Alfheim, Glantri, and Rockhome become a single nation. - The meteor that caused the Great Crater is only the first of many to pummel the surface of Mystara. - The green-skinned aliens finally send another ship to try to find the Beagle. - Techno-magic is re-developed, and is either controlled properly or leads to another devestating explosion such as The Great Rain of Fire. - Immortals of the Sphere of Time wage a war against intruding chronomancers over Mystara's past and future. - New species, Immortals, and cultures appear. - Old societies and races are destroyed and/or send to the Hollow World. - Immortals disappear or are destroyed. I'm going to play with this some more, and see if I can come up with a coherent timeline for the next few millenia. :) - ---------- PS: I'm /still/ trying to figure out the Myoshiman/Paterna calendar.. they weren't lying when they said it takes a year of study to understand it. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:46:45 -0500 (EST) From: Dleggend@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] 1014 almanac Where can I get 1014 Alamanac in just one file? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:52:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Daniel Boese wrote: >Assuming the 1015 Almanac is already in the works, how do I contribute? It would be a grand thing if Rikard Prospero were to do an article on The Great Hule, which I might be able to humbly help out with... AFAIK, mainly just speculation on the contents- I've got a few ideas I'm toying with and am starting to put together; same with Michael Roy. The best thing to do is to email him and let him know you want in on it and what you want to do. :) >I expect that one of Atruaghin's current projects is to raise a giant mesa for if/when the Atruaghin Clans are ever threatened (say, by a giant horde of humanoids coming in from the north... perhaps the decimation of the Amerind-like culture leads to the Orcwars of 1020 AC?). And perhaps, until the space is 'used up', Immortals such as Terra and Nyx feel free to use the empty areas to play with and create entirely new species and cultures - just where /did/ the Hivebrood come from, anyway? Actually, you might be surprised at my plans for the GM and the Atruaghin area. I don't want to give anything away just yet, but let's just say that things aren't always as they seem... There are plans for the Orcwars of 1020 AC, but they aren't related to the GM. >The Future: >As I've never played, or even seen, these games myself, I'll bow to Micheal Roy, Herve Musseau and Cthulhudrew here. I know that there is a FAQ about the two games floating about somewhere on the 'net, so if you want to find out more, I suggest you try to find it. I'm not sure about these myself, either. I've seen and played the first arcade game (the one scheduled to take place in 1015), and was kind of interested to see it included- I know we had discussed it here before. >>1020 AC: Joint Darokinian and Thyatian operations to protect their interests. All-out war pits humans vs. orcs. >This line came from GAZ10: The Orcs of Thar. At the time, the Broken Lands were completely seperate from Glantri, and the Great Crater didn't exist. >Here's my projection of the scenario: >With the recent Migration (and possible decimation of the Atruaghin Clans), plus raids from the 'orclands' between Aengmor and Ethengar, Darokin (probably with assistance from the rest of the Western Defense League) tries to quell the problem once and for all. Like I said, Michael and I have thought ahead to the 1020 Orcwars, and we do have things in the planning for it. It won't involve the GM of Hool, but it looks to definitely involve the Orclands/Rockhome area. >Meanwhile, Synn has manipulated Glantri into a confrontation with Thyatis. Because Prince Kol is officially in charge of the humanoids of the Broken Lands, Glantri finds itself in the position of being the focus of yet another war (after just finishing up one against the Ethengar Khanates), only this time against Darokin and Thyatis. How the two Aengmors affect this is anybody's guess... but the Orcwars are likely to last many years. Interesting thought. I'm not sure what the Synn plans are, and I sort of ignored Kol, myself, preferring to focus on the other 'noid leaders; Kol seems to have generally been overlooked this past year. >>1050 AC: Ylaruam falls under the rule of Kin faction sultans. Its culture and economy flourishes, but its values decline, and there is a resurgence of traditional tribal enmities. >From GAZ2. This seems to have been moved up to 1014 AC, unless the Preceptors regain their power (possibly even around 1020 AC). My guess is that whoever's working on Ylaruam (not sure if it's Michael or one of the others- I know Michael said he got the idea of the Kin from someone else on the list, when we discussed that a while back)- anyway, my guess is that Al-Kalim will be returning next year (time travelling, fulfilling his Quest) to set things aright again. Just a guess, though. (Are you getting the idea that we aren't really terribly coordinated on our projects, except where they might crossover with one another? ;) >>1150 AC: The deaths of High King Maramet of Vestland and his sole heir throw the nation into a political turmoil. The Sorona, the enchanted crown of Vestland, is sought by various factions hoping to claim the throne. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X13, .] >From GAZ7, this seems to have been ret-conned by the Almanacs to about 970 AC. However, there's nothing to prevent a very similar set of circumstances from arising again... You know, I'm thinking of possibly doing something with Forsett next year... I don't know though; that's one more thing to do. :( >The Far Future: >- Techno-magic is re-developed, and is either controlled properly or leads to another devestating explosion such as The Great Rain of Fire. Or, of course, if one were to slightly change the events of module CM6, one could follow the rise of the people who would become the Oards, and their attempts to takeover Mystara... >PS: I'm /still/ trying to figure out the Myoshiman/Paterna calendar.. they weren't lying when they said it takes a year of study to understand it. :) Good to see you're still around; we hadn't heard from you in a while- I thought you might have dropped out of sight. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 03:01:56 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Actually, you might be surprised at my plans for the GM and the Atruaghin area. I don't want to give anything away just yet, but let's just say that things aren't always as they seem... There are plans for the Orcwars of 1020 AC, but they aren't related to the GM. 1020 AC seems to be a very convoluted year. I have been discussing with Herve and Fabrizio about the AE attempt to retake Alfheim. We had a vote last year and most people agreed that should happen, and around 1020 was the consensus about when this should happen. I was waiting for the Almanac for 1014 to start working on the events that will lead to that war, so I intend to be doing so now. I haven't had time to read the whole almanac until now, but soon Herve, Fabrizio and Michael should be hearing from me. Btw, if anybody else is interested inthis discussion let me know, so that I can add you to my mailing list. Anyway, the Orcwars certainly will influence the preparations for this war. This way, if you could please send me the details about it and keep me informed (maybe send me your discussions), it would be very helpful. >My guess is that whoever's working on Ylaruam (not sure if it's Michael or one of the others- I know Michael said he got the idea of the Kin from someone else on the list, when we discussed that a while back)- anyway, my guess is that Al-Kalim will be returning next year (time travelling, fulfilling his Quest) to set things aright again. Just a guess, though. (Are you getting the idea that we aren't really terribly coordinated on our projects, except where they might crossover with one another? ;) You are right on this. I believe some sort of organization would be in order. Maybe each group discussing one project should send the list from time to time the areas they are covering. Otherwise, people will end up with contradictory events and/or descriptions for the same places. If someone with free time would volunteer to coordinate this all would be wonderful, but I am aware that this might be asking too much of the poor guy. Maybe each group could send a bimonthly report of their work, not very detailed, but enough to let everybody knows what is happening. It might even help the groups to get new collaborators. Leroy, could you have this briefings in your homepage, so that anyone could find them easily? Andre Martins acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #28 **************************** Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:42:46 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #29 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, March 28 1997 Volume 02 : Number 029 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 01:02:22 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: III expect that one of Atruaghin's current projects is to raise a giant mesa for if/when the Atruaghin Clans are ever threatened (say, by a giant horde of humanoids coming in from the north... perhaps the decimation of the Amerind-like culture leads to the Orcwars of 1020 AC?). AActually, you might be surprised at my plans for the GM and the Atruaghin area. I don't want to give anything away just yet, but let's just say that things aren't always as they seem... There are plans for the Orcwars of 1020 AC, but they aren't related to the GM. Sounds interesting - don't keep us in the dark /too/ long, now... :) Of course, that doesn't mean that Atruaghin isn't building a Hollow World mesa - just that if he is, it'll be a while before he needs it. >>The Future: >>>1020 AC: Joint Darokinian and Thyatian operations to protect their interests. All-out war pits humans vs. orcs. HHHere's my projection of the scenario: >>Meanwhile, Synn has manipulated Glantri into a confrontation with Thyatis. Because Prince Kol is officially in charge of the humanoids of the Broken Lands, Glantri finds itself in the position of being the focus of yet another war (after just finishing up one against the Ethengar Khanates), only this time against Darokin and Thyatis. IInteresting thought. I'm not sure what the Synn plans are Assuming that she's still active in Glantri in 1020 AC - Etienne just might try to take care of her by then. (Most likely precipitating a nasty crisis, though, since Synn has Immortal backing of her own.. can you imaging Glantri, the anti-priest nation, caught up in a war sponsored by the Immortals? :) ) >and I sort of >ignored Kol, myself, preferring to focus on the other 'noid leaders; Kol seems to have generally been overlooked this past year. I'm sure we can correct this in the 1015 Almanac - I can just imagine our DDC correspondent, Ursula Bremen, interviewing him. :) >>>1050 AC: Ylaruam falls under the rule of Kin faction sultans. >>From GAZ2. This seems to have been moved up to 1014 AC, unless the Preceptors regain their power (possibly even around 1020 AC). mmy guess is that Al-Kalim will be returning next year (time travelling, fulfilling his Quest) to set things aright again. Just a guess, though. Sounds promising. Maybe I can slip in a few chronomancy things there.. ;) >(Are you getting the idea that we aren't really terribly coordinated on our projects, except where they might crossover with one another? ;) Just like every other successful net-project. >>The Far Future: >Or, of course, if one were to slightly change the events of module CM6, one could follow the rise of the people who would become the Oards, and their attempts to takeover Mystara... Slightly? Hm. From what I recall, the adventures were fairly setting-specific.. then again, who ever said the Oards never jumped worlds? I believe there was mention of them in Joshuan's Almanac.. >>PS: I'm /still/ trying to figure out the Myoshiman/Paterna calendar.. they weren't lying when they said it takes a year of study to understand it. :) GGood to see you're still around; we hadn't heard from you in a while- I thought you might have dropped out of sight. :) No, just caught up in the dreaded 'Real Life', and spending most of my Mystara time diddling with planetary mechanics. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 01:15:30 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac In a message dated 97-03-27 01:06:16 EST, dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca (Daniel Boese) writes: << Assuming that she's still active in Glantri in 1020 AC - Etienne just might try to take care of her by then. (Most likely precipitating a nasty crisis, though, since Synn has Immortal backing of her own.. can you imaging Glantri, the anti-priest nation, caught up in a war sponsored by the Immortals? :) ) >> Why not? After all, did that not happen in the original "Wrath of the Immortals"? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:06:41 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Helena or Helena On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Rob Rickard wrote: >>>Was Helena Daphnotarthius (DotE & PWA) suppose to be Helena Ledamiades (WotI). >>>They have the same first names and follow the same Immortal (Valerias) and live in Thyatis City, but one dies (WotI) and other lives on past WotI. >>>Aaron Allston created both but I cant see why he would set the characters up to be confusing. >>Helena Daphnotarthius became an admiral later in the war. Helena Ledamiades was a mortal form of Valerias who cursed Thincol. So they are two different persons. >>Aleksei >When I played Riots I played them as two seperate people too, but I had re named Helena Ledamiades to Velena Ledamiades And jacked her age up to 50. I made Helena Daphnotarthius a close family member of her. But I also had Valerias (Ledamiades) use Daphnotarthius to spread the coruption. >I could not see why Arron Allston created the two characters with the same first names, Immortals, in the same area.......but left them with different names names. Almost as if he thought he created a new character (Ledamiades in WotI) but forgot about the first one he made (Daphnotarthius in DotE). There are just alike excpt for last names. and the fact that they take on a totaly different paths in the next published released (PWA). >Did arron want two Valerias Helenas? one set to destroy Thyatis the other to fight for it? Well, the name Helena is not really that uncommon, is it? It's not like every character has to have a different name. And the Roman Empire (on which Thyatis is based) didn't have all that many first names. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:51:36 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] Helena or Helena Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: >On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Rob Rickard wrote: >>>>Was Helena Daphnotarthius (DotE & PWA) suppose to be Helena Ledamiades (WotI). >>>>They have the same first names and follow the same Immortal (Valerias) and live in Thyatis City, but one dies (WotI) and other lives on past WotI. >>>>Aaron Allston created both but I cant see why he would set the characters up to be confusing. >>>Helena Daphnotarthius became an admiral later in the war. Helena Ledamiades was a mortal form of Valerias who cursed Thincol. So they are two different persons. >>>Aleksei >>When I played Riots I played them as two seperate people too, but I had re named Helena Ledamiades to Velena Ledamiades And jacked her age up to 50. I made Helena Daphnotarthius a close family member of her. But I also had Valerias (Ledamiades) use Daphnotarthius to spread the coruption. >>I could not see why Arron Allston created the two characters with the same first names, Immortals, in the same area.......but left them with different last names. Almost as if he thought he created a new character (Ledamiades in WotI) but forgot about the first one he made (Daphnotarthius in DotE). There are just alike excpt for last names. and the fact that they take on a totaly different paths in the next published released (PWA). >>Did arron want two Valerias Helenas? one set to destroy Thyatis the other to fight for it? >>Rob >Well, the name Helena is not really that uncommon, is it? It's not like every character has to have a different name. And the Roman Empire (on which Thyatis is based) didn't have all that many first names. >Aleksei It annoys me I guess that TSR made two Helenas' like this. Hey one thing that we misssed ......... >>>Helena Daphnotarthius became an admiral later in the war. Helena Ledamiades was a mortal form of Valerias who cursed Thincol. So they are two different persons. >>>Aleksei Vanya was the moody Immortal that cursed Thincol. Do you think that she does this to get Eusebius in power? Why do you think Daphnotarthius did not join Ledamiades? Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:10:33 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac Just want to say I loved the Almanac, even if I didnt have time yet to leaf through the whole thing. The only section I really considered to be missing was about religion/immortals. I know there have been several efforts on the list before by Mr. Pierpont (sp?) and several others on Mystara's immortals..how about information on each church's hierarchy system/national leader OR for the smaller less global ones, information about where they hold most sway, how they are dealing with events in their region, etc...I am sure lots of people would bewilling to contribute info they have made up on individual religions. >- Karameikos, the Five Shires, Darokin, Restored Alfheim, Glantri, and Rockhome become a single nation. I personally don't see snobs like Glantrians joining up to a union where they will not be the dominant and deciding force. Darokin and Karameikos and the Shires each have different forms of government (not sure about the others) and it would take a majorly dominant personality to be able to unite them. >- The green-skinned aliens finally send another ship to try to find the Beagle. YES! About time someone responded to that missing ship ;) I personally think such a situation would work in great with the Blackmoorian destruction...what more vital event to set off the catastrophe than the arrival of a more technologically advanced beings who are threatening the Blackmoorian supremacy. >- New species, Immortals, and cultures appear. New cultures forming overnight just doesnt seem likely. More important I think is for cultures in badly defined areas to be more developed.. >- Old societies and races are destroyed and/or send to the Hollow World. Well, seems to be a rare event so I don't think it should be taking place more than every 100 years or so..usually it seems the HW authors gave a society 50 yrs to crumble from their peak. >- Immortals disappear or are destroyed. Immortals live a LONG time. Few would endanger their lives by putting themselves in a situation where their life is at risk. Just my opinion of course... how about immortals decline in importance a la Nix after IM2? This would allow new immortals to rise to prominence, a change in the balance of power? The Reagan and Bush administrations borrowed more money than all the previous US administrations combined. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:31:50 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Mischa E Gelman wrote: >The only section I really considered to be missing was about religion/immortals. >how about information on each >church's hierarchy system/national leader OR for the smaller less global ones, information about where they hold most sway, how they are dealing with events in their region, etc... >>- Karameikos, the Five Shires, Darokin, Restored Alfheim, Glantri, and Rockhome become a single nation. >I personally don't see snobs like Glantrians joining up to a union where they will not be the dominant and deciding force. Darokin and Karameikos and the Shires each have different forms of government (not sure about the others) and it would take a majorly dominant personality to be able to unite them. I agree with all your points. However, with time, all things change... Heck, except for the demihuman nations, none of these countries even existed a few centuries ago. What's to prevent invasions, wars, civil strife, and other fun things from toppling the current governments? >>- The green-skinned aliens finally send another ship to try to find the Beagle. >YES! About time someone responded to that missing ship ;) From what I remember, the 'Federation' (or whatever) is notoriously over-beaurocracied - they lost a smaller survey ship for several decades (or was that centuries?) before the Beagle left. I'm sure a minor battle with a green-skinned, ridge-foreheaded warrior culture :) could have nulled most of the records about the Beagle. >I personally think such a situation would work in great with the Blackmoorian destruction...what more vital event to set off the catastrophe than the arrival of a more technologically advanced beings who are threatening the Blackmoorian supremacy. Interesting idea - does anybody have a datum about what exactly happened in 3000 BC? >>- New species, Immortals, and cultures appear. NNew cultures forming overnight just doesnt seem likely. More important I think is for cultures in badly defined areas to be more developed.. True. Of course, this includes almost all of Davania, most of Skothar, a good deal of Brun, and practically every undersea race. Care to take a shot? :) >>- Immortals disappear or are destroyed. IImmortals live a LONG time. Few would endanger their lives by putting themselves in a situation where their life is at risk. Just my opinion of course... True, but we know that many more Immortals are 'missing' than we know of - - Mystara has had sentient life for millions of years, and most of the current 'crop' are merely thousands of years old, or even just centuries. >how about immortals decline in importance a la Nix after IM2? This would allow new immortals to rise to prominence, a change in the balance of power? A good idea. Perhaps Gareth's philosophy spreads, and the Immortals start losing worshippers by the droves... - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:21:02 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac I forward you a message of Micheal Roy. >Return-Path: >Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:02:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: mroy@cyberus.ca >To: Fabrizio Paoli >From: Michael Roy >Subject: Mystaran Almanac >Could you please post this to the list... thanks. >Hello everyone. I've have received the appraisals and pats on the back from various people so far, saying what a great job the Mystaran Almanac was. To everyone, I'd like to say thank you, and I really enjoyed doing it. >But I am not the only one who worked on it. Others also participate and deserve the credit just as much as I did. Here they are, and their contributions: >Fabrizio Paoli : Fabrizio gave a lot of comments and feedback on the shadow elves. He also kept track of the ieas oon the mailing list and post things up for us. Currently, he's reformating the Almanac into a .doc text and will be placing it up at MPGN site for us. >Herve Musseau : Herve worked out the events and descriptions of the NACE. He also did the proof reading, ccorrecting the hundreds of mistakes and typos. >"Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" : He did the work on tthe goblinoids (humanoids), making sure they weren't ignored during AC 1014. > : He gave comments and ideas on Ylaruam, and it is thanks to tthose that the Kin faction became involved in the events. >I've also receive many requests to participate in the next Almanac. Of course, everyone is free to give ideas and comments, and most have probably noticed that ideas from the Mailing-List were indeed taken and included into the current Almanac. >First of all, the Almanac will only take things one year at a time. The future is way to unpredictable for too many years at once, so far reaching plans should be avoided... they could start in AC 1015, but odds are something will happen to change them along the way. >Second is the contents of your ideas. Unfortunately, the Known World area has a lot of things already going. The goblinoids are rampaging around and the shadow elves are in a civil war. If you want something for that area, we recommend just sending brief ideas: plans that are too complicated will be hard to fit in. If the idea is very interesting or plausible, then we'll let you know and you can develop it further afterwards. Good places to work with would be Wendar and the Northern Reaches; the rest have plans and ideas already into motion. Still, send us ideas anyways: if it's about the shadow elves, send them to Fabrizio, if it's about the goblinoids, then you want Cthulhudrew, and I'll be taking care of most of the rest. Like I said before, the future is unpredictable, and if your idea is great, I'll be more than happy to change what we have planned to incorporate it. >The Alphatian Sea/NACE area is going to be mainly run by Herve, so send those ideas to him. I don't believe he has any major plans going yet (correct me if I'm wrong here, Herve), so you can probably go more into detail. >The big places for development are the Hollow World and the Savage Coast. For the Hollow World, our only ideas concern Nithia. The rest if open ground to work with, and all the help here will be much appreciated. As for the Savage Coast, some plans were set into motion in AC 1014, but they have yet to be developped for AC 1015, so feel free to work on that area as well. As of yet, I have no one to run or control these places, so send those ideas to me. >If an idea concerns another part of Mystara or more than one of them, I guess I should receive it as well. >Ideas do not have to be events. We are looking for NPCs to introduce, places of interests to talk about, descriptions of nations, interviews with major NPCs, as well as more correspondents for the various far-flung reaches. Statistics for the Mystara Miscellanea are also welcome. You can even send ideas on the format of the Almanac. Also remember that we are trying to find a new name for the Known World area and the NACE area (although it seems that the Alphatia Sea will win here). IIf talking about a place that is already described by TSR, remember that it is their copyright. DO NOT COPY THINGS WORD FOR WORD! Also, include the references and source materials. You can say the same thing, but you have to say it in another manner. >Now, the main thing here is that the Mystaran Almanac is for and by everyone on the list. People will have different ideas or expectations, and we can't make everyone happy. So ideas will definitely be welcome, but I cannot garantee we'll use them. The ones we choose will be those which are presented better, make more sense, are highly original, or just happen to fit well within the current events that are taking place. A couple might also be chosen randomly. So please, if we refuse your idea, don't take it personally. >PS: Final Exams are comming up for a lot of us, so don't expect major responses or comments until the end of April. MMichael Roy >mroy@cyberus.ca ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:19:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S wrote: >You are right on this. I believe some sort of organization would be in order. Maybe each group discussing one project should send the list from time to time the areas they are covering. Otherwise, people will end up with contradictory events and/or descriptions for the same places. If someone with free time would volunteer to coordinate this all would be wonderful, but I am aware that this might be asking too much of the poor guy. Maybe each group could send a bimonthly report of their work, not very detailed, but enough to let everybody knows what is happening. It might even help the groups to get new collaborators. Leroy, could you have this briefings in your homepage, so that anyone could find them easily? On my end of things, I know that my contributions didn't come until afterthe initial 'tentative' 1014 almanac timeline came out in (I think) November or October of last year. At that point, I just sort of added in my events with the rest of the timeline, and had certain events that were already noted have consequences on others- the Earthquake/Raising of Aengmor, for instance, I had bring certain notable consequences to the Orclands. Given that there seem to be a lot more interested parties this time out, there will definitely need to be some more definite coordination. Your ideas seem sound to me. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:31:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Daniel Boese wrote: >>I personally think such a situation would work in great with the Blackmoorian destruction...what more vital event to set off the catastrophe than the arrival of a more technologically advanced beings who are threatening the Blackmoorian supremacy. IInteresting idea - does anybody have a datum about what exactly happened in 3000 BC? Nothing terribly specific that I've ever seen; the most I've heard is that a nuclear power plant blew up and caused a chain reaction that took out Blackmoor, and caused a shift in the planet's axis. My guess is that it somehow (back to my MagiTech idea again) reacted poorly with the World Shield and the resultant chain reaction reverberated through the WS which is what prompted the shift in axis. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 23:41:17 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac Mischa E Gelman pontificated: >>- Karameikos, the Five Shires, Darokin, Restored Alfheim, Glantri, and Rockhome become a single nation. >I personally don't see snobs like Glantrians joining up to a union where they will not be the dominant and deciding force. Darokin and Karameikos and the Shires each have different forms of government (not sure about the others) and it would take a majorly dominant personality to be able to unite them. Well, in many campaign the PCs are very dominant personality, and forging one nation out of those could be the start of the path of dynasty. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:17:17 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Future projects As soon as I'll finish converting the 1014 Almanac into a .doc file, printing and reading it I've in mind to start working on the following projects: - - A timeline of Gnomish migrations (I already started working on it) - - A description of Rafielton (that I hope will appear in the next almanac) - - The Shadow Elves history for next year If someone would like to help me on any of those works (especially the last one) just mail me. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:26:20 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Has there ever been any talk of having two lists. One for Mystara and another for OD&D? In my three weeks here, I've only seen a couple of OD&D topics. Don't get me wrong, I love Mystara as much as the next guy (well...almost!), but I joined this list mainly for OD&D talk, and this seemed to be the only place to get it. Necromancer "Life is an illusion...Death comes to all" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:41:37 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Necromancer: At 11:26 AM 3/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >Has there ever been any talk of having two lists. One for Mystara and another for OD&D? In my three weeks here, I've only seen a couple of OD&D topics. Don't get me wrong, I love Mystara as much as the next guy (well...almost!), but I joined this list mainly for OD&D talk, and this seemed to be the only place to get it. Only 3 weeks huh? Give it some more time! This list is usually chok-full of OD&D stuff -- with a smattering of AD&D that is /specifically/ Mystara oriented thrown in. You might consider checking out the back-issues of the digest for this list if you want to see the kind of topics that normally come up. Unfortunately, someone else will have to share the information on how to get them -- I don't remember the details at the moment. Also, if you want to see OD&D topics, then start some! If you throw out a good question or comment, others will snatch it up and follow with more interesting comments and considerations. By the way, I've only been following the list cursorily these days - -- I'm rather busy at school -- what topics have come up that were AD&D vs OD&D oriented? Only those AD&D topics with elements of Mystara to them, are "allowed" here. Long discussions of AD&D only stuff are generally discouraged. Yours, - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:43:55 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac To the people that made the almanac, thank you very very much for this excellent, large project keeping Mystara going. I didn't see Shawn Stanley's Gombar and Suma (I don't know how to spell those BTW) timeline in the Mystaran Almanac. Those are a part of the Savage Coast, right? I don't remember if there are many SC events in it, but it does say it's an area to be developed, and I think it should be added in, since it's a part of Shawn's AC1014 Almanac pages, which include some of what people wrote for the Mystaran Almanac. Also, what about Madame Aleksandra's horoscope (Nuwmont 1014 I think)? As far as I know it was written before the horoscope in the Mystaran Almanac. This variety of 1014 material is compatible AFAIK, I think everyone's stuff should be put together, as it really is a collaborative list thing. So there are 2 slightly different almanacs, I hope they can be integrated since there's not really that much difference. Perhaps more coordination and communication is needed. One thing I saw mentioned inside was the area known as "The Known World" is too big for the format of the almanac, or whatever. A while ago I said the KW was that rectangle on the Companions set and Rules Cyclopedia maps. I guess I was wrong, but my idea would be simply go back to using those rectangles. The RC isn't that old compared to the first almanac after all. If "The Known World" doesn't sound like the right name for the original KW, since other areas are now known, I'd suggest "Old World." KW is a pretty simple name, and on earth I think Eurasia was called the Old World when it's inhabitants learned of the west, which they called the New World. So what if it's the same name - it's simple logic. So we could either have the old rectangles of KW, Norwold, Savage Coast, Hule, etc., or these all could be known, and the rest unknown, and the original map rectangle could be Old World instead of KW. However, some people might want to call Blackmoor the Old World. I remember in Fred Saberehagen's Swords series, the ancient collapsed civilization was called that. Maybe it's some sort of fantasy tradition. Anyway, if people didn't like this first solution, I'd say do the continents separately. >>Now, the main thing here is that the Mystaran Almanac is for and by everyone on the list. People will have different ideas or expectations, and we can't make everyone happy. So ideas will definitely be welcome, but I cannot garantee we'll use them. The ones we choose will be those which are presented better, make more sense, are highly original, or just happen to fit well within the current events that are taking place. A couple might also be chosen randomly. So please, if we refuse your idea, don't take it personally. To me, the first statement of that paragraph doesn't quite seem to mesh with the rest of it. I'm certainly not trying to accuse or purposely offend anyone, but I didn't like how the rest of it sounded, and thought I should mention it. IMO something such as the Almanac should be by the list, and for the list, as Mike's first sentence says. *All* of us should have a *guaranteed opportunity* to choose the way that the world of Mystara goes next. I think it would be good to vote on the main "threads." Even if it was done undemocratically, I guess I'd read it and be glad there was more Mystara material coming out, but I think that sort of method would be wrong. Maybe this is just because of my radical philosophy of direct democracy. What do other people think? I also read that the Northern Reaches are open for contributors. What about Norwold? I kind of like the area and I've been thinking of writing up the info of an interesting Norwold campaign I DMed. If there were any major things other people were creating for there, it probably wouldn't conflict with it too much. This reminds me, another thing to consider is stats for pre-Champions of Mystara airships, such as Volospin's Dragonfly and others in AC11. Maybe the ship details would be more appropriate for some sort of CoM type writeup, but for the Almanac, keep in mind Darokin has airships too, and what about Jaggar's transforming Gargantoid. I don't know offhand if Alphatians fly those around like airships or not. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:08:56 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] some Wendar ideas (long) >>Artifacts have side effects, yes, but they're generally baneificial, aren't they? >Baneificial - is that a word? I don't know but I've heard it used before, and you probably knew what I meant, so... >>The shapechange could be a side effect but the longevity is more of a helpful thing so it should be one of its powers. >Well longevity may not necessarily be a good thing. Yeah, in which case the cure wounds and other healing type powers may not necessarily be good either... see what I'm saying. Remember, longevity is not immortality or godhood- if someone would actually want to die when they have longevity, they'd have plenty of time to devise a quick/painless way to do so. >I agree with you in terms of looking into the possible repercussions of making longevity a side effect of the Elvenstar. But then again maybe it doesn't even after give longevity - I don't know why I thought of that in the first place - why it had to. It doesn't have to, it was just an idea, but it should be carefully considered. >>>I'm glad someone else agrees that Landryn was a bit wimpy. I think Bensarian just talked him up a bit too much. >>I was sort of disappointed with him actually. Here they had this great Tolkienesque place, and if I recall the storyline was somewhat epic. And then there's this not-so-great villain behind it all, and the heroes actually get to face him and even kill him. Of course, I should say, he's *supposedly* behind it all... Someone made a post on how Landryn could actually be more powerful, but I still don't think people should actually get the chance to face the real villain. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:18:26 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: [Mystara] the so-called Blackmoor debate I don't have much Blackmoor info but here's an idea. I've heard people debating where Blackmoor was, but who's to say it was in any one spot? When I first learned of Blackmoor I thought that it was almost worldwide. If evidence points to it being in more than one spot, what's wrong with saying it was in both, or even more places? I guess Blackmoor culture would vary in different areas. Maybe someone would say something like "This book says these tribes of elves settled near Blackmoor" for example. So what. All you have to do is determine where that book implies Blackmoor to be, right? And then that's the area you use. Technology spreads fast. I think cultures in many places would have it. The explosion could still happen in one area, all it would take to destroy the rest of an *interdependent* technology-dependent society is a such a cataclysm. Their stability depends on more than one thing, which are important and easily disrupted. If the main Blackmoorian civilization went down, the rest would go down with it. I just read Chthuludrew's theory about the world-shield and Mystara's magic having something to do with the GRoF. This is great! If one place on Blackmoor, surely a society with rapid technological advancement, made a new thing that went over the line, it could cause the GRoF. Maybe it was just a tiny bit more advanced, think of the children's story about all the animals getting into the mitten, and the cricket stepping in and causing it to burst. The rest of Blackmoor could have similar devices, or even the same and it was just that one that screwed up. I don't know if this would solve the problem or not, I'm neglecting some major issue aren't I. What do you think? BTW I saw some Blackmoor stuff written by Irving Galvez, on the Blackmoor area now, and the Black Swamp & Lizardmen. Does anyone know where this area is intended to be? If it's on Skothar, maybe we should see if we can use it in MOrient, but only if we can reach a feasible explanation about Blackmoor (which I doubt is possible unless someone at TSR tells us. Didn't someone mail a TSR person a while ago? I sure hope they answer, because this really screws up what is considered canon.) Maybe we should just say forget Blackmoor, let's not even use it, since its original place was Dave Arneson's world. (just kidding we can't do that ;) ) P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:38:20 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves (was Conquer of Alfheim) This is a reply to two messages. Joe says : >Well, I compiled a timeline of the elven migrations a while ago... It's still just on paper, but I could post it to the list... I tried to include all the major branches and trace the movements of all the clans and trees of life. I've been planning on typing it in for a while but there's some conflict between the Hollow World set and Gaz14. I'll see what I can do... Fabrizio says: >About elves and their history. When I wrote the timeline of Alfheim invasion I had to make a little research in order to know which clans have a Tree of Life (i.e. which clans followed Ilsundal to the Sylvan Realm) and thus led me to draw a sort of elvish genealogy, from Evergrun to 1000 AC. If you want I can try to post it to the mailing list. The major problem, as someone pointed out months ago, is about the relationship between Schattenalfen, Sahdow Elves and Wendar Elves. I think that would be great to post those. Anyone else? If there are differences maybe they can be discussed, to make a really good one. If there's a problem though, that's not so good. Is it Blackmoor's location that caused the problem again? It seems like that almost divides Mystara into 2 parallel worlds and divides it's fans... Cthuludrew said that it's location doesn't really matter for the Wendar elves though, so maybe not. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:45:18 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Linguistics At 03:08 PM 1/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >Okay. I'm sure I'm being rather anal about this, and it really shouldn't matter, but if nothing else it's an interesting bit of speculation, and if anyone has any advice for me, I'd love to hear it. >The situation? I've been thinking about the linguistics of Mystara lately, and how the various languages of the Known World tend to be based on real world languages. I'm sure this was done primarily for flavor, and so the designers wouldn't have to make names up out of whole cloth, but it doesn't seem to hold up in at least one instance, as far as I am concerned. >Specifically, in the case of the Hattian/Thyatian connection. The Thyatian language seems to be either Latin (Anaxibius) or Italian (di Malapietra), which are obviously closely related as both are derived from the same base Latin language (awkward pause as he rereads that last sentence... whatever). Now, given that the Hattians are part of the same group of peoples the Thyatians are from, it would seem that their languages would be similar. >Yet the Hattians seem to have a distinctly German language, much different from that of the Thyatians. Now, I could see where the Heldanners would speak German, given a Latin influence from the Hattian intruders, mixed with the Scandinavian roots of their Heldannic language (and a lot more mixing time that 40-50 years, but that's another story). Yet I don't see how the Hattians, who aren't separated (geographically speaking) that far from the other Thyatians, would have developed this language on their own. Any ideas? Here's my idea. I read and thought about this a while ago, and I think the ancient Hattians followed a different immortal than the other two tribes. Maybe it was Diulanna and Rathanos, I can't find where it was mentioned. This could explain it. In Scandinavian myth, Odin (and maybe others) created the runes and I think he gave mortals info on them. There's also the stories of Moses getting the ten commandments and some god giving Hammurabi his laws. I don't recall if it's said they also got writing for the first time or not, but these are just examples. Also there are those hebrew letters based on angels or something. On earth, the alphabet often has some sort of divine story about it. What a better place to do the same thing but on a fantasy world. The immortals could have given them their alphabets or influenced the languages of the tribes, or the mere fact that they followed different immortals could be why they developed different languages, especially if they had a rivalry, then maybe they would not want to talk like "those heretics over there". (If not, there's always the possibility of other immoratals plotting around.) They did live in slightly different areas too. How does this sound? Anyway, if anyone finds out about these immortals, please say so, because I'm not sure if this idea would work. >For that matter, it seems to me that after 200+ years, Glantrians would have some sort of common Glantrian tongue that is spoken at least in the more centralized regions of Glantri (and likely being a smattering of all the various languages of the Principalities). I can see the various Alphatians and perhaps the clannish Scots of Klantyre maintaining their oral traditions as much as possible, but it seems to me that a common language should have developed by now. In addition, some of the more outlying dominions, such as the very isolated Viscounty of Blofeld, would have developed very distinct dialects of this root language- not so much that they couldn't communicate with more centrally located Glantrians, but enough that a good linguist could note from which region the speaker hailed from. >Anyway, it's just a thought, and I'd be very interested to hear what anyone else might think about the matter. I don't have much Glantri info, but that sounds good. Just go more by the guideline in the books that there is a "Common" language, that's all one would have to do. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #29 **************************** Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:46:51 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #30 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1f245d2e1a297f801b460a5898bcc218 mystara-digest Monday, March 31 1997 Volume 02 : Number 030 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 12:50:31 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac In a message dated 97-03-28 18:52:20 EST, darwin@nwinfo.net (David Melik) writes: << One thing I saw mentioned inside was the area known as "The Known World" is too big for the format of the almanac, or whatever. A while ago I said the KW was that rectangle on the Companions set and Rules Cyclopedia maps. I guess I was wrong, but my idea would be simply go back to using those rectangles. >> I would support that idea. It appears that we could give a cultural definition to "Known World" -- it is not known in the sense that certain people (Thyatians, perhaps?) know about it -- after all, by that definition it would be growing continuously until it included even the Hollow World and Myoshima. Instead, I would define it as the area where Thyatian is the "common" language. Thus, Alphatia, the Savage Coast, Myoshima, and the Hollow World would be excluded because they use different "common" languages. However, southeastern Brun and the entire Thyatian Empire (perhaps excluding the Hinterlands) at its height in AC 1000 would be included. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 12:50:21 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac In a message dated 97-03-28 18:52:20 EST, darwin@nwinfo.net (David Melik) writes: << I didn't see Shawn Stanley's Gombar and Suma (I don't know how to spell those BTW) timeline in the Mystaran Almanac. Those are a part of the Savage Coast, right? >> Not exactly -- they are located on the west coast of the peninsula known as the "Arm of the Immortals", which is slightly west of the Savage Coast. The inhabitants of Gombar and Suma'a are "demi-ogres" from southeastern Skothar -- a civilized cross between ogres and Tanagoro humans. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:04:17 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Almanac: WDL->single nation >>- Karameikos, the Five Shires, Darokin, Restored Alfheim, Glantri, and >>Rockhome become a single nation. >I personally don't see snobs like Glantrians joining up to a union where they will not be the dominant and deciding force. Darokin and Karameikos and the Shires each have different forms of government (not sure about the >others) and it would take a majorly dominant personality to be able to unite them. I agree that this seems unlikely, however, I do have one idea for the necessary dominant personality: WotI states that Khoronus is currently the closest of the immortals to becoming an Old One. Perhaps one day soon, he will renounce his immortality and return to Mystara, forging a great dynasty based on the unification of these nations. This could lead to massive fighting within the sphere of Time (they really MUST have more than 2 Hierarchs), somewhat similar to the civil war within Energy during WotI. Perhaps Khoronus is able to travel backward in time to be born as a mortal, but he may not take a role in world-shaping activities until the time when he gives up his immortality. (i.e. Khoronus gives up his immortality in 1015 and travels backward in time to be born in 995. He, as a human, cannot change the course of history until 1015). We could, of course, pick any dates we want. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:09:03 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac >>Hello everyone. I've have received the appraisals and pats on the >>back from various people so far, saying what a great job the Mystaran Almanac was. To everyone, I'd like to say thank you, and I really enjoyed >>doing it. I'd also like to add my congratulations and thanks to everyone who created this Almanac. It is an excellent campaign aid. Good Work! The only short-falling that I noticed in my quick read-through is that it almost completely igonres two of my favorite nations, Yavdlom and Ulimwengu. Especially with the new Vilaverdan colony and the fighting amongst the city-states, this area, including all the free towns, is ripe to be expanded upon. I sincerely hope that something will come of this next year, and I would like to offer my assistance if necessary:) Thanks for dedicating your time to creating such a great accessory! Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:41:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] the so-called Blackmoor debate On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, David Melik wrote: >I don't have much Blackmoor info but here's an idea. I've heard people debating where Blackmoor was, but who's to say it was in any one spot? When I first learned of Blackmoor I thought that it was almost worldwide. If evidence points to it being in more than one spot, what's wrong with saying it was in both, or even more places? The major point against this is that Blackmoor was so named due to the nature of the area it was in- ie, it was located on an area of some odd black stone that had a preponderance of magic stored in it. This was unsual enough in the world that there was only one area known for it- Blackmoor, a tiny borderland Barony, then Kingdom. I take your point though, and I suppose it isn't too major an assumption that there were colonies of the Kingdom of Blackmoor, though I think you run into additional problems with this- namely, the spread of technology/magitech, which I think is generally considered not to be a good thing. >BTW I saw some Blackmoor stuff written by Irving Galvez, on the Blackmoor area now, and the Black Swamp & Lizardmen. Does anyone know where this area is intended to be? My guess is that this area was intended to be in either the swamp region in the Duchy of Ten, or else the Great Dismal Swamp region of Blackmoor, where the Temple of the Frog, the Barony of the Lakes, et al, were located. As for whether he intended the entire area to be on Skothar or Brun, I can't say. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:28:01 -0800 From: David Keyser Subject: [Mystara] (newly discovered) old Blackmoor material I recently found an D&D Expert-level adventure set in Blackmoor written by Dave Arneson himself. It is split into two parts, in issues 42 and 43 of Different Worlds magazine. These issues were printed in 1986. It is fully compatible with the D&D Rules Cyclopedia and looks like it could be played after DA2, as it mentions how the Temple of the Frog has been destroyed. It even has a map showing some of the local towns near the city of Blackmoor. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 17:48:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] (newly discovered) old Blackmoor material On Sat, 29 Mar 1997, David Keyser wrote: >I recently found an D&D Expert-level adventure set in Blackmoor written by Dave Arneson himself. It is split into two parts, in issues 42 and 43 of Different Worlds magazine. These issues were printed in 1986. Cool! Where did you find these magazines? Do you or anyone else know where they could be found, what Different Worlds is, or anything else that could help me track down these adventures? I must have all Blackmoor related materials... It is imperative... :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 21:55:37 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: [Mystara] martial arts, elements, spheres, etc. I was just looking through the archives and came across this. >From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 20:09:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] Another note... >I just thought of something else... >The weapon mastery rules given in the Rules Cyclopedia for wrestling and striking spurred this thought in me long ago. I decided, using that format, to make up rules for other unarmed weapon masteries- ie, martial arts- for characters to learn. I was initially going to send them to Dragon, but with the passing of Mystara and OD&D... well, you can guess why I never did. >So far, I have come up with rules for Aikido, Savate, and Kung Fu, with plans for some others, but I've never actually had a chance to implement these rules in a campaign to test for balance, so I'm not sure how much of an impact they might have. On paper they don't look to unbalancing, but you never know. >Anyway, if anyone would be interested in seeing these, and giving me some feedback, I'll go ahead and post them here. If not, well, I guess I won't *sniff, sniff*. I don't know if you posted these or not, but I'd be interested in seeing them. I'm working on a martial art styles thing too. I think it was the mystic rules in the old Masters set I was reading, which said that fighting styles correspond to elements, and I thought it would be interesting to assign actual martial arts to these different elements. I made combinations of the elements so there could be more styles. (Then after reading WoTI I did sphere and class combos too, since I eventually used class combos in OD&D.) First I looked in the Manual of the Planes, but it had negative and positive planes, which I don't use, and it didn't combine them all, so I made my own. Thinking back to the RC planes chapter, AFAIK the elemental planes aren't touching each other, but if they were, these new elemnts could be the spaces between them, or other planes between them, but they wouldn't even have to be planes. I think they really need some improvement, so that's also why I've posted them. Any ideas? Oh yeah, the charts don't exactly line up with the others, it's in alphabetical orfer, so if you want to find out the right elements on the other charts it'd have to be looked up. Anyway, here's the charts. Elements Air Earth Fire Water Air Air Dust Smoke Water Earth Dust Earth Magma Ooze Fire Smoke Magma Fire Steam Water Vapor Ooze Steam Water Void (corresponds to entropy. some ancient civilizations did consider it an element.) Martial Art Styles (this *really needs improvement and additions - *WARNING* I know this is *not accurate* since I don't know much about this... it's just thoughts & ideas. also maybe we should substitute the 4 basic types with actual styles) Defensive Offensive Throws Wrestling Defensive Defensive Ninjitsu Juijitsu Offensive Ninjitsu Offensive Sumo Throws Wrestling Wrestling Throws street fighting (corresponds to entropy,since it seems they'd use any method to kill...) Classes (ok - so they're more like titles, so what.) Cleric Mage Rogue Warrior Cleric Cleric Theurgist Mystic Paladin Mage Theurgist Mage Bard Ranger Rogue Mystic Bard Rogue Thug Warrior Paladin Ranger Thug Warrior Ultimist (a combo of everything (from Polyhedron mag.) which is too munchkin so, they're bad, so they're entropic. Seriously though, a highly toned-down version of this could be interesing) THEurgist is as in THEology, I thought of it myself but then read somewhere theurgist is an actual word. Anyone know what the definition is and what it would be for rpg's? You could substitute Forester for Ranger, but I like ranger from the roguelike computer game Moria. I use the Mystic class as is, but I guess if it went on the chart that's where it would go. I guess monk would work too. Thug is aka headsman, the monster from the RC. Seems appropriate for that class. A friend of mine also suggested bandit or brigand. Now... the spheres. I don't think I'd actually use extra ones, but I think this is just something that's maybe useful to look at, when thinking about immortals, quests for immortality, (maybe even with transferring AD&D cleric spell spheres to OD&D spheres?) etc. Maybe it's not useful but here it is anyway. Actually it did help me when I made immortals for Daneme, my own world, even though I only used the 5 spheres. Energy Matter Thought Time Energy Energy War Magic Power Matter War Matter Creativity Change Thought Magic Creativity Thought Wisdom Time Power Change Wisdom Time I think I did one for colors corresponding to elements too, but that's more complicated, and I'd have to figure out how it goes again even though it's written down, and I have an essay to do, and maybe that would be getting too far off the Mystara subject so that's definitely enough for now. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 23:52:48 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: [Mystara] next almanac I saw this post again in the archives too. I'm really glad I looked, because there are many forgotten posts collecting dust there that are relevant to current projects. This was just one I luckily happened to see. >Daniel and Leroy wrote (the truth): >>Hey, you Mystara people! Want to add your own ideas to a net.book? All you have to do is make something up! That's right, just flex your imagination that tiny little bit, and think up something! A tavern, a brand of wine, heck, even just the name of some poor sod! Oh, you also have to either email it or post it to the list! (((Does that count, Leroy? :) ) >>>>I can just imagine a cross-Glantri wine & cheese tour... ;) NNNNow _that_ would be interesting. >>Alright then, let's assume that Joshuan, as part of his research for his next Almanac, is heading up to Glantri to do a cheese and wine tour (and incidentally visit every locality worth visiting, and some that aren't)... Everybody! Pick a place somewhere in Glantri, and place your tavern there, maybe even detailing various beverages or such that happen to be there.. and I /do/ mean You in particular. :) Remember, this is the only way to get more Mystara information, and You are one of the few people keeping the world alive... (Then came my writeup of the Drunken Boar tavern.) Well so far just Daniel and I wrote something for this, AFAIK. (I really hope some other people do it too.) I think this stuff should go in the 1015 almanac (unless it's already in MA 1014, but I don't think it was in there.) Maybe my one needs some revising though. I don't recall what Joshuan did when he retired as editor, but that doesn't mean he can't still be a correspondent instead. Maybe since he's retired now (at least as editor) he took a vacation to Glantri, and did this for the almanac when he was there. Maybe he did it before he retired, but it was not completed, or unblished. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:14:35 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: [Mystara] online files Does anyone have mystnb2.zip and/or mystdoc.zip in .txt or .wri format? (they're on mpgn.) Also does anyone have the Thothian encounter table? I downloaded the file from someone's Mystara page, but it's in some *really* weird format. What's that "Mystaran scenarios for Warlords II" file? Is for a computer game or something? Also, has anyone converted the online Savage Coast or Shadow Elves gazeteer into a *decent* .txt format instead of that chaotic mess? (No offense to whoever put it into .txt, I'm just grateful that it actually got online. However, there's no point in anyone wasting time fixing it up if someone already did, then it can be sent around.) I've downloaded this stuff before but I can't use it in their present formats (and I know other people also can't) and I'm just getting really curious. Any help would be appreciated. Maybe this would be a good sort of thing for the FAQ if it's not in there already. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:19:06 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] online files David Melik pontificated: >What's that "Mystaran scenarios for Warlords II" file? Is for a computer game or something? Warlords II is a computer game that came out about 3 years ago. It is turn-based fantasy war-game. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:02:32 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] online files In a message dated 97-03-30 04:21:40 EST, darwin@nwinfo.net (David Melik) writes: << What's that "Mystaran scenarios for Warlords II" file? Is for a computer game or something? >> Warlords II is a computer game of fantasy combat for which it is possible to construct one's own scenarios. Evidently somebody did that for the world of Mystara. This file is of no use unless you happen to have the game Warlords II. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 22:52:30 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac At 15.43 28/03/97 -0800, you wrote: >To the people that made the almanac, thank you very very much for this excellent, large project keeping Mystara going. Thanks. BTW: since you didn't post this message to Micheal Roy and since he's no more on the list I'll try to reply in his place. I hope that Herve will post his opinion too. >I didn't see Shawn Stanley's Gombar and Suma (I don't know how to spell those BTW) timeline in the Mystaran Almanac. Those are a part of the Savage Coast, right? I don't remember if there are many SC events in it, but it does say it's an area to be developed, and I think it should be added in, since it's a part of Shawn's AC1014 Almanac pages, which include some of what people wrote for the Mystaran Almanac. I've not read the whole almanac yet, but IIRC it says that the info about the SC is not complete and not guaranteed to be accurate. Besides, being those places in the Arm of the Immortals it would be even more difficult to have accurate news reach Karameikos. >Also, what about Madame >Aleksandra's horoscope (Nuwmont 1014 I think)? As far as I know it was written before the horoscope in the Mystaran Almanac. This variety of 1014 material is compatible AFAIK, I think everyone's stuff should be put together, as it really is a collaborative list thing. So there are 2 slightly different almanacs, I hope they can be integrated since there's not really that much difference. Perhaps more coordination and communication is needed. As you said that horoscope was for Nuwmont only, while the almanac needs the horoscope for 12 months. And IMO Micheal didn't know about Aleksandra's Almanac. >One thing I saw mentioned inside was the area known as "The Known World" is too big for the format of the almanac, or whatever. A while ago I said the KW was that rectangle on the Companions set and Rules Cyclopedia maps. I guess I was wrong, but my idea would be simply go back to using those rectangles. The RC isn't that old compared to the first almanac after all. If "The Known World" doesn't sound like the right name for the original KW, since other areas are now known, I'd suggest "Old World." KW is a pretty simple name, and on earth I think Eurasia was called the Old World when it's inhabitants learned of the west, which they called the New World. So what if it's the same name - it's simple logic. So we could either have the old rectangles of KW, Norwold, Savage Coast, Hule, etc., or these all could be Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:46:51 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #30 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1f245d2e1a297f801b460a5898bcc218 >known, and the rest unknown, and the original map rectangle could be Old World instead of KW. However, some people might want to call Blackmoor the Old World. I remember in Fred Saberehagen's Swords series, the ancient collapsed civilization was called that. Maybe it's some sort of fantasy tradition. Anyway, if people didn't like this first solution, I'd say do the continents separately. >>>Now, the main thing here is that the Mystaran Almanac is for and by everyone on the list. People will have different ideas or expectations, and we can't make everyone happy. So ideas will definitely be welcome, but I cannot garantee we'll use them. The ones we choose will be those which are presented better, make more sense, are highly original, or just happen to fit well within the current events that are taking place. A couple might also be chosen randomly. So please, if we refuse your idea, don't take it personally. >To me, the first statement of that paragraph doesn't quite seem to mesh with the rest of it. I'm certainly not trying to accuse or purposely offend anyone, but I didn't like how the rest of it sounded, and thought I should mention it. IMO something such as the Almanac should be by the list, and for the list, as Mike's first sentence says. *All* of us should have a *guaranteed opportunity* to choose the way that the world of Mystara goes next. I think it would be good to vote on the main "threads." Even if it was done undemocratically, I guess I'd read it and be glad there was more Mystara material coming out, but I think that sort of method would be wrong. Maybe this is just because of my radical philosophy of direct democracy. What do other people think? I don't want to start a polemic thread here, so don't take this personally. IMO (that I think is not much different from Micheal's one) the 1014 Almanac was so good because there were only 4 people working on it, though the list contributed with ideas. On the other hand I know that we need the help of many more people to do something better for next year, but you can't deny that if everyone wants his favourite nation or NPC to do this or that, the whole thing will get unmanageable (does this word exists ?). I think that everyone should send to the list his ideas for AC 1015, but then that ideas, especially the "cataclismic" ones such big wars and the like, should be carefully debated before being included in the new almanac. Maybe this will sound undemocratic, but if we start using everyone's ideas Mystara will be short lived IMO. Anyway voting on the main threads wouldn't be democratic too, because not all Mystara fans are on the mailing list. Take this almanac as you would take a TSR product: you can use it, modify it or trash it as you want. >I also read that the Northern Reaches are open for contributors. What about Norwold? I kind of like the area and I've been thinking of writing up the info of an interesting Norwold campaign I DMed. If there were any major things other people were creating for there, it probably wouldn't conflict with it too much. This reminds me, another thing to consider is stats for pre-Champions of Mystara airships, such as Volospin's Dragonfly and others in AC11. Maybe the ship details would be more appropriate for some sort of CoM type writeup, but for the Almanac, keep in mind Darokin has airships too, and what about Jaggar's transforming Gargantoid. I don't know offhand if Alphatians fly those around like airships or not. Norwold ? If you want to write something about Norwold write to Herve , because he's in charge of the NACE events and Norwold is part of NACE. Darokin has airships ? Where did you read this ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:20:02 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac >I'd also like to add my congratulations and thanks to everyone who created this Almanac. It is an excellent campaign aid. Good Work! The only short-falling that I noticed in my quick read-through is that it almost completely igonres two of my favorite nations, Yavdlom and Ulimwengu. Especially with the new Vilaverdan colony and the fighting amongst the city-states, this area, including all the free towns, is ripe to be expanded upon. I sincerely hope that something will come of this next year, and I would like to offer my assistance if necessary:) Thanks for dedicating your time to creating such a great accessory! Since Micheal is no more on the mailing list you've better wrote directly to him if you want to help us with the next almanac. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:25:52 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] next almanac >Well so far just Daniel and I wrote something for this, AFAIK. (I really hope some other people do it too.) I think this stuff should go in the 1015 almanac (unless it's already in MA 1014, but I don't think it was in there.) Maybe my one needs some revising though. I don't recall what Joshuan did when he retired as editor, but that doesn't mean he can't still be a correspondent instead. Maybe since he's retired now (at least as editor) he took a vacation to Glantri, and did this for the almanac when he was there. Maybe he did it before he retired, but it was not completed, or unblished. Joshuan took a vacation to one of the Ierendi islands, far better than a vacation in Glantri :) Anyway we can easily put that stuff in the AC 1015, or even create a new almanac, sort of addition to the main one. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 05:39:45 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathan Devaprasad <96devapr@scar.utoronto.ca> Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Huh, just wondering, what happened to Ettienne (sp) "RAD" after the "Wrath of the Immortals"?? I don't have any of the almanacs since I am not running that timeline campaing (HATED THE WRATH OF THE IMMORTALS CAMPAIGN), but would like to know what happened according to the Mystaran timeline. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:44:09 -0600 From: Reg Subject: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara I was wondering if the Mystara Net Community could come together to make an on-line map of Mystara. That way people wanting to submit information of new areas would have a point of refernece? Just a Thought, thanks. Reginald the MageSlayer "Today is a Good Day to Die" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:18:59 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] martial arts, elements, spheres, etc. >From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 20:09:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mystara] Another note... >I just thought of something else... >The weapon mastery rules given in the Rules Cyclopedia for wrestling and striking spurred this thought in me long ago. I decided, using that format, to make up rules for other unarmed weapon masteries- ie, martial arts- for characters to learn. I was initially going to send them to Dragon, but with the passing of Mystara and OD&D... well, you can guess why I never did. Ya I would like to get ahold of this too Cthulhudrew. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:43:36 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac This is Micheal's answer to a mail by David Melik that appeared on the list a few days ago. >>To the people that made the almanac, thank you very very much for this excellent, large project keeping Mystara going. >Our pleasure! >>I didn't see Shawn Stanley's Gombar and Suma (I don't know how to spell those BTW) timeline in the Mystaran Almanac. Those are a part of the Savage Coast, right? I don't remember if there are many SC events in it, but it does say it's an area to be developed, and I think it should be added in, since it's a part of Shawn's AC1014 Almanac pages, which include some of what people wrote for the Mystaran Almanac. Also, what about Madame Aleksandra's horoscope (Nuwmont 1014 I think)? As far as I know it was written before the horoscope in the Mystaran Almanac. This variety of 1014 material is compatible AFAIK, I think everyone's stuff should be put together, as it really is a collaborative list thing. So there are 2 slightly different almanacs, I hope they can be integrated since there's not really that much difference. Perhaps more coordination and communication is needed. >Well, I don't get the mailing list stuff regularly, so there are ideas I've missed while making the Almanac. I saw Shawn's Stanley's Gombar and Suma afterwards, and I've since talked to him. He's agreed to send information and work on those nations for the AC 1015 Almanac. AAs for the horoscope, I haven't seen it at all... anyone know which digest # it is in? If they are compatible, all the better. The one thing is that the AC 1014 Almanac is done, and I won't change anything even if it's not perfect. Lot of places have been left out (purposely and accidentaly) and they can be included in the next Almanac. If you've read it, I'm sure you've noticed the editors often mention "We don't know much yet, but as we get the information, it will appear in future editions..." That was basically me excuse line for things that were not included and the statement that they will be included in future editions. >>>One thing I saw mentioned inside was the area known as "The Known World" is too big for the format of the almanac, or whatever. A while ago I said the KW was that rectangle on the Companions set and Rules Cyclopedia maps. I guess I was wrong, but my idea would be simply go back to using those rectangles. The RC isn't that old compared to the first almanac after all. If "The Known World" doesn't sound like the right name for the original KW, since other areas are now known, I'd suggest "Old World." KW is a pretty simple name, and on earth I think Eurasia was called the Old World when it's inhabitants learned of the west, which they called the New World. So what if it's the same name - it's simple logic. So we could either have the old rectangles of KW, Norwold, Savage Coast, Hule, etc., or these all could be known, and the rest unknown, and the original map rectangle could be Old World instead of KW. However, some people might want to call Blackmoor the Old World. I remember in Fred Saberehagen's Swords series, the ancient collapsed civilization was called that. Maybe it's some sort of fantasy tradition. Anyway, if people didn't like this first solution, I'd say do the continents separately. >Old World... hmm I like that one. Anyone else with an opinion or vote? >>>To me, the first statement of that paragraph doesn't quite seem to mesh with the rest of it. I'm certainly not trying to accuse or purposely offend anyone, but I didn't like how the rest of it sounded, and thought I should mention it. IMO something such as the Almanac should be by the list, and for the list, as Mike's first sentence says. *All* of us should have a *guaranteed opportunity* to choose the way that the world of Mystara goes next. I think it would be good to vote on the main "threads." Even if it was done undemocratically, I guess I'd read it and be glad there was more Mystara material coming out, but I think that sort of method would be wrong. Maybe this is just because of my radical philosophy of direct democracy. What do other people think? >Well, idealy, everyone would vote and it would be made by everyone. But things are never ideal. I've seen discussion on this list, and sometimes no one ever comes to an agreement. Someone has to be a final "judge," as it were. >Also, the time it would take to vote for every detail would be just way too long unless we started right now (which lot of us do not have time since school and exams are on the way). If I recall, the time it took for everyone to vote on whether or not fluff (stories) would be accepted took about 2 months. Imagine that for a couple of hundred plots and ideas! >What I've done for the AC 1014 Almanac was simply read the digest of the list at various intervals and just grabbed ideas. The Cajun idea on the Savage Coast was taken from the list, as was the idea that the Ochaleans are from MChina... (BTW: how is MChina comming along? If posible, we could start introducing it in the next Almanac!). The debate on what happens with Rad/Etienne was never solved on the list, therefore in the Almanac I gave multiple scenarios concerning his presence for saving Malachie! AAll that to say is that I DO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE DESIRES OF THE MAILING LIST! I just don't think that voting and taking it democratically is the best way to run such a project. This is too big to be handled that way: someone has to make decisions! >I've never been too fond of the idea that because 11 people say yes and 10 say no that YES is the way to go. If a clear majority wants something, I go along with the majority (which is what I've done so far). If it falls somewhere near the middle, then I've made the decisions myself with consultation/votes of my core helpers (the exact people depending on the subject: everyone has their field of specialty). >I therefore believe that the best way is to present an idea on the list and just watch what people's reactions are... I'll be sure to follow them, and if the ideas goes well, I'll be sending you mail to ask you to develop it further. >It might sound somewhat unfair, but it is the best way to run such a large project. There has to be a clear goal at the start or it will never be finished! >>>I also read that the Northern Reaches are open for contributors. What about Norwold? I kind of like the area and I've been thinking of writing up the info of an interesting Norwold campaign I DMed. If there were any major things other people were creating for there, it probably wouldn't conflict with it too much. This reminds me, another thing to consider is stats for pre-Champions of Mystara airships, such as Volospin's Dragonfly and others in AC11. Maybe the ship details would be more appropriate for some sort of CoM type writeup, but for the Almanac, keep in mind Darokin has airships too, and what about Jaggar's transforming Gargantoid. I don't know offhand if Alphatians fly those around like airships or not. >Norwold is pretty much open, but falls into the control of Herve... if you have ideas, send it to him, and he'll work it out with you. Just a reminder: Cthul. is the goblinoids, and Fabrizzio is the elves (specifically shadow elves). >One question: since when does Darokin have airships? As for the Gargantoid, that's another episode open for ideas and development... any suggestions out there? >Michael Roy >mroy@cyberus.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:52:18 -0800 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [Mystara] (newly discovered) old Blackmoor material >On Sat, 29 Mar 1997, David Keyser wrote: >>I recently found an D&D Expert-level adventure set in Blackmoor written by Dave Arneson himself. It is split into two parts, in issues 42 and 43 of Different Worlds magazine. These issues were printed in 1986. >Cool! Where did you find these magazines? Do you or anyone else know where they could be found, what Different Worlds is, or anything else that could help me track down these adventures? >I must have all Blackmoor related materials... It is imperative... :) I got it from Quincey Koziol - http://www.titan-games.com, but there is only one copy of 43 available. Copies will show up in rec.games.frp.marketplace sooner or later. DW was originally printed by Chaosium, although I think it went independent later. I don't think it is still in print. I also found an adventure for D&D in White Dwarf #91. It is not set in Mystara but can be easily fit in. I mention it because it is written by Carl Sargent, I've always been one of his fans. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:00:48 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] some Wendar ideas At 02:22 PM 3/31/97 +1000, you wrote: >>>>Artifacts have side effects, yes, but they're generally baneificial, aren't they? >>>Baneificial - is that a word? >>I don't know but I've heard it used before, and you probably knew what I meant, so... >Yeah but I was just wondering whether it was actually a word - it's just that I couldn't find it. Neither could I. I found "baneful" though, so I guess that's better. >>>>The shapechange could be a side effect but the longevity is more of a helpful thing so it should be one of its powers. >>>Well longevity may not necessarily be a good thing. >>Yeah, in which case the cure wounds and other healing type powers may not necessarily be good either... see what I'm saying. >Are you trying to be funny? Mainly I was trying to convince you, but maybe a little bit. ;) >I see what you're saying but even still immortality is not always a good thing especially if the person using the Elvenstar probably wasn't looking for immortality. >>Remember, longevity is >>not immortality or godhood- if someone would actually want to die when they have longevity, they'd have plenty of time to devise a quick/painless way to do so. >>>>>I'm glad someone else agrees that Landryn was a bit wimpy. I think Bensarian >>>>>just talked him up a bit too much. >>>>I was sort of disappointed with him actually. Here they had this great Tolkienesque place, and if I recall the storyline was somewhat epic. And then there's this not-so-great villain behind it all, and the heroes actually get to face him and even kill him. Of course, I should say, he's *supposedly* behind it all... >>Someone made a post on how Landryn could actually be more powerful, but I still don't think people should actually get the chance to face the real villain. >Do you agree with the making Landryn more powerful thing? Actually, when I first read the module, I thought it would make more sense if he was a lich. As I said though, I think something like an exalted should have been behind the whole plot for centuries, ages. Thus, if making him more powerful means making him the "boss," I disagree. Of course, if making him exalted could be pulled off with a plausible explanation, I would agree. Sauron lost power once after all... If not, as long as his power doesn't affect the game too much, I don't have a concrete opinion on that, because it wouldn't make much difference either way. Although I used to think Landryn should be a lich, I don't think I'd like a change that forces a lot of modifying and work for a DM to run the old module, but if he survived, it would be interesting, and logical, if he did become more powerful... but that's not decided yet. How's the Wendar timeline (or is it more of a project now) going, anyway? P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #30 **************************** Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 02:56:53 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #31 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 764e400ab66eccf2190633973b2c166d mystara-digest Wednesday, April 2 1997 Volume 02 : Number 031 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:15:00 +0800 (WST) From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [Mystara] Future projects >As soon as I'll finish converting the 1014 Almanac into a .doc file, printing and reading it I've in mind to start working on the following projects: - A timeline of Gnomish migrations (I already started working on it) - A description of Rafielton (that I hope will appear in the next almanac) - The Shadow Elves history for next year >If someone would like to help me on any of those works (especially the last one) just mail me. I would like to devote my limited spare time to helping you on these projects. Amusingly, in my current major campaign I have a gnomish explorer researching the history of the gnomes and a pair of shadow elves. I'm am mostly keen on the first one tho. Do you know of any references? I'm going to start compliling a list of information about gnomes in mystara and will let you know what I find out. Glenn - -- 'For a copper!' [Battle cry of Lynard the elemaster] knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au Home page: http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ finger -l for pgp public key ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:11:46 +0800 (WST) From: Jason MURPHY Subject: [Mystara] Past Projects. I have been gone from this list for quite some time. I was hoping that someone might be able to tell me how i may be able to get hold of all the excellent material that may have been turned out by the busy bees present on this list. Is there an FTP site i can go too. If this is an often ask question perhaps some kind soul could simply send me the lists FAQ file and i will attempt not to interrupt your discussion with my pointless trivialities. Thanx in advance. Jason Murphy tzbyxx@echidna.stu.cowan.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jan 1994 07:12:35 -0700 From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: [Mystara] Past Projects. mystara-l@lists.io.com wrote: >I have been gone from this list for quite some time. I was hoping that someone might be able to tell me how i may be able to get hold of all the excellent material that may have been turned out by the busy bees present on this list. >Is there an FTP site i can go too. >If this is an often ask question perhaps some kind soul could simply send me the lists FAQ file and i will attempt not to interrupt your discussion with my pointless trivialities. There is an archive of stuff at... http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm ...as well as a list FAQ and the collected digests. The archive is a bit behind at the moment, though. If you have questions you want answered, but don't want to send them to the list, feel free to send them my way. That's what I am here for. - -- Leroy Van Camp III | "By the way, this may look like a slab of liver, malacoda@lesbois.com | but its an external brain pack." owner-mystara-l@io.com | Ratbert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:54:30 -0500 (EST) From: Mouse Subject: Re: [Mystara] Past Projects. >I have been gone from this list for quite some time. I was hoping that someone might be able to tell me how i may be able to get hold of all the excellent material that may have been turned out by the busy bees present on this list. >Is there an FTP site i can go too. >If this is an often ask question perhaps some kind soul could simply send me the lists FAQ file and i will attempt not to interrupt your discussion with my pointless trivialities. I only know of an archive which keeps past material that has been presented on this list. The MML Digest: http://www.io.com/%7Eftp/mailing-lists/mystara-digest/ Don't worry about the question. You can't expect to find answers if you don't ask questions. Mouse Life is pain...!! Anyone who says differently is selling something. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:08:10 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: [Mystara] New Classes Has anyone out there designed any new classes for OD&D? I've been working on a bard, a ranger, and I've done a little work on an illusionist. I don't own anything besides the RC and a few modules so some of what I've done may have been 'officially' done elsewhere. Necromancer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 12:31:40 -0800 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D The Mark of Amber module has information about it. Since my players played castle Amber some years before the wrath of the immortals and the went througth the WOI set I'm planning to change the module to make it intersting for their charcters (now levels 10+). >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Huh, just wondering, what happened to Ettienne (sp) "RAD" after the "Wrath of the Immortals"?? I don't have any of the almanacs since I am not running that timeline campaing (HATED THE WRATH OF THE IMMORTALS CAMPAIGN), but would like to know what happened according to the Mystaran timeline. - -- "I'm caught in a dream And my dream's come true." I was born to love you. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:20:54 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] next almanac: Taverns and Rahasia >>>Hey, you Mystara people! Want to add your own ideas to a net.book? All you have to do is make something up! That's right, just flex your imagination that tiny little bit, and think up something! A tavern, a brand of wine, heck, even just the name of some poor sod! Oh, you also have to either email it or post it to the list! ((((Does that count, Leroy? :) ) >>>>>I can just imagine a cross-Glantri wine & cheese tour... ;) NNNNNow _that_ would be interesting. >>>Alright then, let's assume that Joshuan, as part of his research >>>for his next Almanac, is heading up to Glantri to do a cheese and wine tour (and incidentally visit every locality worth visiting, and some that >>>aren't)... Everybody! Pick a place somewhere in Glantri, and place your tavern there, maybe even detailing various beverages or such that happen >>>to be there.. and I /do/ mean You in particular. :) Remember, this is the >>>only way to get more Mystara information, and You are one of the few people keeping the world alive... I will do my part; I am detailing a tavern in Kern, Sablestone, which I will post later today probably. However, this gave me an idea. In module B7: Rahasia, there are many bottles of wine from . They include "Red Dragon Crush," "Purple Grapemash No 3," and Champagne du le Stomp." This last wine in particular sounds Glantrian. Even if this module occurs in Karameikos, as presented in B1-9, they could have imported Glantrian wine. However, I believe that Rahasia is best set in Erewan of Glantri. After all, it doesn't really fit where B1-9 locates it (off the Duke's Road smewhere between Kelvin and the Darokin border), for there are no elven communities mentioned in this area in GAZ1 or K:KofA. A temple full of elves but with no clerics sounds like a particularly Glantrian thing. And finally, the mood is Glantrian, because magic is prominent and the principal villain is an evil cleric. What does the list think? I think we should use the wine in the tavern tour at any rate. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 12:21:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] next almanac: Taverns and Rahasia On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >I will do my part; I am detailing a tavern in Kern, Sablestone, which I will post later today probably. However, this gave me an idea. In module B7: Rahasia, there are many bottles of wine from . They include "Red Dragon Crush," "Purple Grapemash No 3," and Champagne du le Stomp." Perhaps the Wizard of Wines, Elias, was a famous vintner in his day? >This last wine in particular sounds Glantrian. Even if this module occurs in Karameikos, as presented in B1-9, they could have imported Glantrian wine. Likely. Keep in mind timelines, though. The earliest that particular wine (presuming it is Averoigne) could have appeared is c. 728 (I think, memory faulty) AC, when the French founded New Averoigne. I don't recall offhand, but wasn't Elias a wizard of old times, dying many hundreds of years prior to the events in B7? >However, I believe that Rahasia is best set in Erewan of Glantri. After all, it doesn't really fit where B1-9 locates it (off the Duke's Road smewhere between Kelvin and the Darokin border), for there are no elven communities mentioned in this area in GAZ1 or K:KofA. Hmm. I don't know. The mood is distinctly Arabic in feel- Rahasia, an elf named Hasan, a fighter named Baik Telor, and the evil cleric the Rahib. I think it would definitely need to be located somewhere near Ylaruam, or Sind perhaps, in order to get that Arabic influence (hence, I think, one of the main reasons they located it in Karameikos). I thought B1-9 located it in the (Radlebb?) woods on the western side of the duke's road, where the Canolbarth elves live? >A temple full of elves but with no clerics sounds like a particularly Glantrian thing. And finally, the mood is Glantrian, because magic is prominent and the principal villain is an evil cleric. What does the list think? Depends on whether you use OD&D or AD&D, I suppose; no elf-clerics in OD&D, so a temple with no clerics isn't too hard to imagine. And the principal villain changes from the Rahib to those three witch sisters- but the point is still well taken (and perhaps even more influenced by that fact; witch sisters in Glantri? Probably a dime a dozen. ;) Still, one would have to admire the Rahib's kahongas for operating openly in a place which detests clerical practices... :) >I think we should use the wine in the tavern tour at any rate. Sounds like a plan to me. Wonder what Averoigne vineyard the Champagne du le Stomp is from? Particularly since it couldn't be called a champagne, really... it's a sparkling wine. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 22:46:39 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Gnomish Timeline What follows is a timeline of gnomish migrations on Mystara. Unlike the elvish ones there're no many inconcistencies in TSR products about gnomes, probably because there're less products that speaks about them :) Anyway there's one problem: GAZ 7 states that Kobolds attacked and esterminated the Gnomes living in the Northern Reaches in 490 BC, while PWA2 (and probably PWA1 and 3 too) under the entry for Oostdok says that the Valoin Gnomes lived in the Northern Reaches until 490 AC when they were exterminated by a Kobold invasion, and this is not a typo (AC instead of BC) because a few lines before it says that they lived in the Northern Reaches until the beginning of the sixth century. In my timeline I assume that the GAZ 7 timeline is the correct one, but that's just my opinion. In the following timeline I marked witha * the events that need further explanation. 2900 BC: The Immortal named Garal Glitterlode creates the gnomish race, planting colonies of them in the land that will later become Rockhome and the mountains of the northern continent. (PC2) Ice Gnomes appear in the southern continent (HW migration map). *I didn't find more info about this Ice Gnomes, so I would be glad if someone can help me here. In particular I remember someone (Cthul?) saying that they were probably linked to the gnomes in the Earthshaker module, but since I haven't got that module...* 2500 BC: Gnomes and dwarves enter the Northern Reaches region and settle in its hills and mountains as the continental ice sheets recede. (GAZ7) 1050 BC: Great wizards of the Nithians, inspired by the Immortal Pflarr's servant race (the Hutaaka), create the gnoll race by magically blending trolls and gnome. (GAZ 10) 492 BC: At the battle of Sardal Pass, they are routed, the orcs utterly massacred. Ubdala dies. Hordes routed south and west, crowding Cruth mountains and Altan Tepes. Gnomes kicked out. (GAZ 10) *Gnomes kicked from where? Probably from Rockhome, but why? Did they help the invading 'noids?* 490 BC: Kobold clans are driven into the uplands of the Northern Reaches from the west. They overrun and exterminate the gnomes, and occupy their subterranean kingdoms. (GAZ 7) The Immortals transport the Valoin Gnomes on a Floating Continent in the HW. (PWA2) *I talked about this at the beginning* 251 BC: A legendary gnome craftsman named Glimreen Gemeye discovers a jet engine artifact of the destroyed Blackmoor civilization. (PC2) 150 BC approx.: Gnomes start building the flying city. Nagpa and Tabi soon joins the gnomes. (PC2^ 91 BC: Sphinxes join the group working on the flying city. (PC2) 14 BC: The outer shell of Serraine is completed. (PC2) 0 AC: Highforge Gnomes settle in Traladara territories. (GAZ 1) 9 AC: Gnomes contact Faenare to join the group that is building Serrain. (PC2) 16 AC: Building of the Great Library of Serraine started. (PC2) 39 AC: On Ambyrmont 1st the Flying City of Serraine makes its maiden flight. (PC2) 91 AC: The Great Library is completed. (PC 2) 400 AC approx.: The amazing Gnomish city of Torkyn Fall is destroyed by Dragons. ("Dragonlord of Mystara") *I've read only the 1st book of the trilogy, so I don't know if in the other two (that I'll read soon) there's more about Torkyn Fall, but I doubt it* V cent. AC: On Serraine the whole Flaemeker clan is hurled into the Void by an experiment went awry. The immortals transport the clan on a Floating Continent in the HW (PWA2) 778 AC: The flying islands of Valoin and Flaemeker collide giving birth to the new flying continent of Oostdok. (PWA2) 978 AC: Heldannic Knights invade Oostdok. (PWA2) 1010 AC: With the help of Alphatia the Gnomes on Oodstok free themselves from the Heldannic Knights. (PWA2) Known Gnomish settlements on and in Mystara today (1014 AC) Stoutfellow, Alphatia, HW: 15000 gnomes Hule, SC: (much) less than 50000 gnomes (BTW how do they get there?) Highforge, Karameikos, KW: 5000 gnomes (6500 before WotI) Alphatian Neatharum, Iciria, HW: 500 gnomes Oostdok, HW: 20000 gnomes Serraine, KW: about 2500 gnomes Last note: to build the Aegos pit Alphatia took 500 gnomes from Serraine (the ones that now are in Alphatian Neatharum), but strangely the population of Serraine did not decrease. Being the gnomes not that prolific, I wonder how they replaced those 500. Maybe they took them from Highforge, whose population decreased without any apparent reason :) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 22:51:18 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Future projects At 14.15 01/04/97 +0800, Glenn wrote: >>As soon as I'll finish converting the 1014 Almanac into a .doc file, printing and reading it I've in mind to start working on the following projects: >>- A timeline of Gnomish migrations (I already started working on it) - A description of Rafielton (that I hope will appear in the next almanac) - The Shadow Elves history for next year >>If someone would like to help me on any of those works (especially the last one) just mail me. >I would like to devote my limited spare time to helping you on these projects. Amusingly, in my current major campaign I have a gnomish explorer researching the history of the gnomes and a pair of shadow elves. >I'm am mostly keen on the first one tho. Do you know of any references? I'm going to start compliling a list of information about gnomes in mystara and will let you know what I find out. Unfortunately I read your message just after sending my Gnomish timeline. Anyway you can look at that and send your comments. Thank for help. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 23:17:33 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] New Maps The new almanac is very good but it has no maps, since we cannot enclose TSR maps for copyright reasons I'm looking for someone willing to draw one of the following: - - new city maps, especially for the towns detailed in the atlas - - new hex maps for those areas that suffered geographic changes during and after WotI (Broken Lands, Canolbarth Forest, IONACE) or that have never been mapped in detail (Isle of Dawn, Arch of Fire..) - - new "hand-drawn" maps a la PWA1 If someone of you has Campaign Cartographer it would be very good, otherwise a sheet of paper, a pencil and a scanner (I've one) would be enough. Volunteers can write directly to me. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:42:00 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Hi! >The Mark of Amber module has >information about it. Since my players played castle Amber some years before the wrath of the immortals and the went througth the WOI set I'm planning to change the module to make it intersting for their charcters (now levels 10+). That´s quite the same in my campaign! My problem is we have played the Castle Amber quite early in our roleplaying career, so I didn´t really think about campaign theme. Now I try to fit it in a bigger sheme (history, campaign story, aso..). How did you do it? >Hmm. I don't know. The mood is distinctly Arabic in feel- Rahasia, an elf named Hasan, a fighter named Baik Telor, and the evil cleric the Rahib. I think it would definitely need to be located somewhere near Ylaruam, or Sind perhaps, in order to get that Arabic influence (hence, I think, one of the main reasons they located it in Karameikos). Ah yes ....(sigh).... this brings memories back up. Baik Telor was (I think) the oldest (longestliving) NPCs we had in the party .... *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:43:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Classes On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: >Has anyone out there designed any new classes for OD&D? I've been working on a bard, a ranger, and I've done a little work on an illusionist. I don't own anything besides the RC and a few modules so some of what I've done may have been 'officially' done elsewhere. Rules on Bards were given in an issue of Dragon. I was once toying with the idea of a Skald class. More like a northern reaches variant of the Bard class. The classes would be very similar, only skalds could use Runes. Just an idea. I never really finnished it. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 02:56:53 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #31 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 764e400ab66eccf2190633973b2c166d learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:53:48 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [Mystara] Pronunciation of NACE and Ionace? Does it pronounce like mace or something else? John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:04:00 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >Depends on whether you use OD&D or AD&D, I suppose; no elf-clerics in OD&D, so a temple with no clerics isn't too hard to imagine. I never thought of this before: AD&D allows Mystaran Elves to be Clerics? In that case, the Shadow Elves will be rather UN-unique in AD&D Mystara since they won't be the only elves with Clerics (ie Shamans) as such. I did notice in PWA3 that the Schattenalfen are ruled by two clerics, and I wondered about that. Now I realise that it was released for AD&D, and I'm wondering more... Thorfinn. ============================================================== Charles Tait Tel: 01856-87-3738 Fax: 01856-87-5313 Kelton, St. Ola, E-Mail: Charles@velvia.demon.co.uk Orkney, UK. KW15 1TR "May the Force be with you!" ============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:56:34 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Classes Hello, I'm new to the list and I thought I'd introduce myself before replying to some people's posts. My name is Thorfinn Tait. I am 18 years old and I live in Orkney (in the North of Scotland) and also Edinburgh (about half of each year in each place). I've been playing D&D (okay, OD&D) for over 10 years, almost as long as I can remember, starting with the Basic (red), Expert, etc. sets and then the Cyclopedia. I always played in Mystara - did try FR once but never really got into it because Mystara seemed more suitable and cooler for my campaigns. Diversity is one of the coolest thngs about Mystara, along with the "high magic" setting. Favourite characters are Elves (Alfheim and Shadow Elves) and Gnomes (principally Skygnomes). I always loved the respective countries these races occupy. Never converted to AD&D because I couldn't see the point - instead I incorporate whatever I need (which is not much - the occasional character class and spell). Anyway, on with the replies... On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: HHas anyone out there designed any new classes for OD&D? I've been working on a bard, a ranger, and I've done a little work on an illusionist. I don't own anything besides the RC and a few modules so some of what I've done may have been 'officially' done elsewhere. Interesting that you mentioned that now... I just today worked out the experience chart for a character in my brother's Shadow Elf campaign who wanted to be a Ranger. We used the AD&D Ranger class pretty much as is (two weapons allowed with no penalties, Move Silently and Hide In Shadows, allies at higher levels, etc.) with the experience chart at least initially pretty much the same - - it corresponded neatly with the D&D Elf when you chop off levels 1 & 2. So, the chart was: Level XP 1 0 2 4500 3 9000 4 18000 5 36000 6 75000 That's all I can remember. Anyway, the basic idea was to add a small amount to the Fighter experience chart, increasing each level, in exchange for the extra abilities. Thus far it is playing okay, though having a character who is essentially ambidextrous is eclipsing the rest of the party somewhat at the moment (we're all level 1). Any comments or ideas? What did you come up with? Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 20:05:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gnomish Timeline On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >2900 BC: The Immortal named Garal Glitterlode creates the gnomish race, planting colonies of them in the land that will later become Rockhome and the mountains of the northern continent. (PC2) Ice Gnomes appear in the southern continent (HW migration map). *I didn't find more info about this Ice Gnomes, so I would be glad if someone can help me here. In particular I remember someone (Cthul?) saying that they were probably linked to the gnomes in the Earthshaker module, but since I haven't got that module...* Not much info about Ice Gnomes specifically, sorry to say, aside from the HW map. :) However: CM4- Earthshaker, details one clan of gnomes and their giant steam powered contraption (I think it's 125 feet high?). It mentions it is their home, and that the Earthshaker comes from a land far away, where there are others. I'll have to double check this, but that's the general gist. AC11- Marvelous Inventions: Jaggar's Transforming Gargantoid is mentioned having been based on the Earthshakers, which Jaggar apparently found (with the gnomes) in some distant land, where they fought against Alphatians. Again, I'll have to double check to be sure exactly what it says, but this is the gist. Princess Ark #? (issue 160 or so): The N'djatwa tell Haldemar of a land of ice to the east of Green Bay (ie, Vulcania) where giant metal machines spend their days warring against one another. They also tell him that skyships were spotted in that area. Add this together with the gnomish migration dates on the HW map, and to me, that spells Ice Gnomes and their Earthshakers. >492 BC: At the battle of Sardal Pass, they are routed, the orcs utterly massacred. Ubdala dies. Hordes routed south and west, crowding Cruth mountains and Altan Tepes. Gnomes kicked out. (GAZ 10) *Gnomes kicked from where? Probably from Rockhome, but why? Did they help the invading 'noids?* I'd say maybe they were driven out of their Rockhome homes by the 'noids, maybe then going south to Highforge in Karameikos? Maybe? >490 BC: Kobold clans are driven into the uplands of the Northern Reaches from the west. They overrun and exterminate the gnomes, and occupy their subterranean kingdoms. (GAZ 7) >The Immortals transport the Valoin Gnomes on a Floating Continent in the HW. (PWA2) >*I talked about this at the beginning* Check the Princess Ark articles. Bruce might have touched on this a bit more. I forget which issue this would be in, though. >0 AC: Highforge Gnomes settle in Traladara territories. (GAZ 1) Oh. Guess my other theory won't work, then... >9 AC: Gnomes contact Faenare to join the group that is building Serrain. (PC2) Anyone ever place these guys? I forget if PC2 says where they are from. Myself, I'd put them with the Ee'ar and the Eshu on the Immortals Arm... >400 AC approx.: The amazing Gnomish city of Torkyn Fall is destroyed by Dragons. ("Dragonlord of Mystara") >*I've read only the 1st book of the trilogy, so I don't know if in the other two (that I'll read soon) there's more about Torkyn Fall, but I doubt it* I think that sounds right. I recall placing this one in my Glantri timeline, and I think this is about the right date... >Known Gnomish settlements on and in Mystara today (1014 AC) >Hule, SC: (much) less than 50000 gnomes (BTW how do they get there?) Shooting themselves out of cannons? :) Seems to me there are other gnomes scattered about the SC. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 20:11:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Peter Balazs wrote: >That´s quite the same in my campaign! My problem is we have played the Castle Amber quite early in our roleplaying career, so I didn´t really think about campaign theme. Now I try to fit it in a bigger sheme (history, campaign story, aso..). How did you do it? For my part, I must have run this adventure over and over many times with different groups of PCs before we ever heard of anything like 'continuity'. :) What I did after we started to actually concern ourselves with the campaign world, etc., was a sort of mild retcon where the heroes of that adventure were actually my brother's characters (arguably the oldest PCs we had and the first to actually undertake it) who were the current rulers of Norwold. That seemed to fit best, as they were also the oldest, and no longer actively being played as PCs. No one seemed to mind, or care much. Of course, it was a bit odd when I gave two of the PC's from two other groups Baronies in Glantri (for saving one of the nobles in a 'dream' quest). It was sort of an even tradeoff... >Ah yes ....(sigh).... this brings memories back up. Baik Telor was (I think) the oldest (longestliving) NPCs we had in the party .... I still have both he and the Rahib (as major campaign villain, soon to be replaced by Xanathon) as long running NPCs in a campaign of mine that got put on hold years ago when my high school buddies and I split up for college. We're still trying to get together to finish X3... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:53:34 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara >I was wondering if the Mystara Net Community could come together to make an on-line map of Mystara. That way people wanting to submit information of new areas would have a point of refernece? I would like to see this too. TSR's maps of mystara are rather ugly (IMO) and I don't have a complete map of the world. Also, I finally found a used copy of Hollow World and the maps were *missing* (argh!) Anyway, I'd love to see such a thing... ;-) Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:44:16 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Classes MY>Rules on Bards were given in an issue of Dragon. I was once toying with MY>the idea of a Skald class. More like a northern reaches variant of the MY>Bard class. The classes would be very similar, only skalds could use MY>Runes. MY>Just an idea. I never really finnished it. That's where I got my initial information. I've done quite a bit of changing though. I kind of wanted a Middle-Earth "jack of all trades"-feel to my bard. Incidentally, my initial ranger is from the same issue (I have it in a Best of...) Necromancer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:50:36 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Classes MY>Hello, I'm new to the list and I thought I'd introduce myself before MY>replying to some people's posts. MY>My name is Thorfinn Tait. I am 18 years old and I live in Orkney (in MY>the North of Scotland) and also Edinburgh (about half of each year in MY>each place). I've been playing D&D (okay, OD&D) for over 10 years, MY>almost as long as I can remember, starting with the Basic (red), Expert, MY>etc. sets and then the Cyclopedia. I always played in Mystara - did try MY>FR once but never really got into it because Mystara seemed more MY>suitable and cooler for my campaigns. Diversity is one of the coolest MY>thngs about Mystara, along with the "high magic" setting. MY>Favourite characters are Elves (Alfheim and Shadow Elves) and Gnomes MY>(principally Skygnomes). I always loved the respective countries these MY>races occupy. MY>Never converted to AD&D because I couldn't see the point - instead I MY>incorporate whatever I need (which is not much - the occasional MY>character class and spell). MY>Anyway, on with the replies... MY>On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: MY>>Has anyone out there designed any new classes for OD&D? I've been MY>>working on a bard, a ranger, and I've done a little work on an MY>>illusionist. I don't own anything besides the RC and a few modules so MY>>some of what I've done may have been 'officially' done elsewhere. MY>Interesting that you mentioned that now... MY>I just today worked out the experience chart for a character in my MY>brother's Shadow Elf campaign who wanted to be a Ranger. We used the MY>AD&D Ranger class pretty much as is (two weapons allowed with no MY>penalties, Move Silently and Hide In Shadows, allies at higher levels, MY>etc.) with the experience chart at least initially pretty much the same MY>- it corresponded neatly with the D&D Elf when you chop off levels 1 & MY>2. So, the chart was: MY>Level XP MY>1 0 MY>2 4500 MY>3 9000 MY>4 18000 MY>5 36000 MY>6 75000 MY>That's all I can remember. Anyway, the basic idea was to add a small MY>amount to the Fighter experience chart, increasing each level, in MY>exchange for the extra abilities. Thus far it is playing okay, though MY>having a character who is essentially ambidextrous is eclipsing the rest MY>of the party somewhat at the moment (we're all level 1). MY>Any comments or ideas? What did you come up with? MY>Thank you kindly, MY>Thorfinn. Thor, I don't give my rangers any two-weapon thingies. I give them MU and Druid spells starting at higher levels (10 and 8 respectively if I remember). I do give them a hide in shadows and move silently ability. I think that I have it at one-half level as a thief. Necromancer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:32:39 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gnomish Timeline In a message dated 97-04-01 22:47:14 EST, jsmill@IMAP1.ASU.EDU (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: << Seems to me there are other gnomes scattered about the SC. >> I don't know about that -- the boxed set specifically denies their existence on the Savage Coast, and their presence in Hule is possible only because, technically, Hule is not considered to be part of the Savage Coast proper. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:32:37 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gnomish Timeline In a message dated 97-04-01 22:47:14 EST, jsmill@IMAP1.ASU.EDU (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: << > 9 AC: Gnomes contact Faenare to join the group that is building Serrain. (PC2) Anyone ever place these guys? I forget if PC2 says where they are from. Myself, I'd put them with the Ee'ar and the Eshu on the Immortals Arm... >> PC 2 describes the Faenare as being from the Broken Lands -- although it does seem that they would feel more at home on the Arm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 10:15:24 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Elves again Hey, it's me again with another interesting issue about the elven history: aside the Wendar elves, i think there is another mystery that few have come to notice: the Trueflower clan of the Thothian Plateau (M5, Talons of Night - - btw Night is Nyx, ain't it?). Where do they come from? IMHO, they could very well be one of the lost clans... Oh, and about the Verdier clan and their "relic", a stone tree artifact, which Immortal had the stone tree as symbol? It may be this one their secret patron... Just some thoughts... DM PS: who had the idea of the Irish-Scottish-Celtic culture in the Isle of Dawn (Westrourke and Redstone)? It was really cool, but i wonder where did it originated, cause it seems there was something similar also at the Alfheim-Darokin border, according to Tall Tales of the Wee Folk (great supplement), near the Dreamlands... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 10:19:14 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Rad and priests Now i wanna know this one: who can for sure state: "i am a priest of Rad", if we all know Rad HATE clerics? And thus going along this hypothesis, who gains the special benefit associated with Rad (WotI DM's book), namely +1 to Int and Wis? It could be the Shepherds, but then they would be the first priests- not-priests (after the thief-not-thief, i.e. the rake:)) Any ideas? DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 10:31:39 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 00.04 02/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: > >>Depends on whether you use OD&D or AD&D, I suppose; no elf-clerics in OD&D, so a temple with no clerics isn't too hard to imagine. < >I never thought of this before: AD&D allows Mystaran Elves to be Clerics? In that case, the Shadow Elves will be rather UN-unique in AD&D Mystara since they won't be the only elves with Clerics (ie Shamans) as such. I did notice in PWA3 that the Schattenalfen are ruled by two clerics, and I wondered about that. Now I realise that it was released for AD&D, and I'm wondering more... >Thorfinn. Ok, let's clear this a bit: there are elven clerics in OD&D Mystara and they are the Tree Keepers (or any Keeper of the Sacred Relic, in general). They are covered in GAZ5: the Elves of Alfheim (a bit obsolete now, i suppose..) and here it is mentioned also the elf-mage class (the standard OD&D elf is basically an elf-warrior). Moreover, there are dwarf-clerics (of Kagyar and i suspect of Garal Glitterlode too) detalied in GAZ6: the Dwarves of Rockhome and even halfling-clerics (the Masters are hins with clerical-wizardish powers given to the halflings by their Immortals, the High Heroes Nob Nar, Brindorhin and Coberham - not mentioned anywhere except in GAZ8: seems that the halflings are underestimated also when they become immortal :)) as written in GAZ8: the Five Shires. Hope to be of some help DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 10:52:40 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Classes At 23.50 01/04/97 -0500, you wrote: >Thor, >I don't give my rangers any two-weapon thingies. I give them MU and Druid spells starting at higher levels (10 and 8 respectively if I remember). I do give them a hide in shadows and move silently ability. I think that I have it at one-half level as a thief. >Necromancer MU spells?? To rangers? Why? Personally i have adapted the AD&D ranger class to OD&D using Rangers' PH, and i've given them Druidic spells from 7th level thereafter as per normal rules, d8 for HD (max 9d8) and 2 attacks at 9th level, and that's it. Of course, they still have all those ranger proficiencies like hide in shadows, direction sense, navigation, identify plants and the like... and also all the other stuff about rangers (animal companion, monster enemy, etc.).. i've also rewritten the Xps to reach 36th level, but i don't remember them by memory.... As for other classes, well i have created many of them (coming from another world called Draconia): shiner: like Psionics, but this is a race, not a class, so you could have a shiner-wizard, shiner-thief, and so on... the main thing is they have to earn more xps each level; arghan: immortal-like beings as in Highlander: they don't age and can be killed only in some specific ways. They are demihumans and get attack ranks up to M, as with special abilities... unfortuantely they are so resistant to magic that there is no wizard or cleric among arghans, and some magical items wielded by them can sometimes malfunction; kurghan: sort of warrior-druid, sworn enemy of undead and arghans, who are considered as undead since they defy time and the natural cycle of life-death. They fight to protect nature and their home, they are very tough - -d10 as HD and max Con of 19- but are not able to wield magic, though some of them can become shamans as per humanoid rules. another power they have is that they can assume the form of their animal-brother, much like werecreatures; gnalf: a crossbreed of gnome, halfling and elf, is highly magical in nature an has all the powers of these races and others; ninja: not that thing published by TSR: mine has got really cool spells and is much like a wizard-thief-warrior that draws his powers from nature and loses Con points when cast spells (only temporarily); so far it is the most used by my players If u're interested, drop me an e-line... oh, i've also adapted Chronomancer to OD&D DM ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #31 **************************** Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:43:12 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #32 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1cb15e2dd3828730bc3128769beec7d4 mystara-digest Wednesday, April 2 1997 Volume 02 : Number 032 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:58:47 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Aliens and the Alphatians... Well well, it is stated in PWA1014 that the Alphatians claim to have originated onto another world, and so it is proved that there are aliens and that the cropping burnings described in Joshuan Almanac were real sign of aliens... But noone does seem to understand that Alphatians originated from the Outer Planes (Draesten), from the Plane of Energy (that's why there were so many spellcasters and they were so powerful) and the higher wizards (as Rikard Prospero is and i think Aldashir McCallum is too) know this. McCallum or Prospero should have specified this in order not to state for certain the exsistence of aliens in the Prime Plane! There are denizens of the other planes in the Prime, but Mystarans cannot be sure there are aliens from other Prime Plane worlds out there (we know there are, and when somebody will meet Emerondians and describe their culture and history, than there will be no more doubts).. DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:15:25 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rad and priests On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >Now i wanna know this one: who can for sure state: "i am a priest of Rad", if we all know Rad HATE clerics? And thus going along this hypothesis, who gains the special benefit associated with Rad (WotI DM's book), namely +1 to Int and Wis? It could be the Shepherds, but then they would be the first priests- not-priests (after the thief-not-thief, i.e. the rake:)) Any ideas? I have always been puzzled by the fact that an immortal would not want clerics. Wouldn't Rad fade if he didn't have any followers? As for the questin above I figured it was the shepherds, but it seems like Aron Alston suffered from terminal exhaustion or something while writing that. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 13:28:50 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Linguistics At 16.45 28/03/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 03:08 PM 1/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Specifically, in the case of the Hattian/Thyatian connection. The Thyatian language seems to be either Latin (Anaxibius) or Italian (di Malapietra), which are obviously closely related as both are derived from the same base Latin language (awkward pause as he rereads that last sentence... whatever). Now, given that the Hattians are part of the same group of peoples the Thyatians are from, it would seem that their languages would be similar. >>Yet the Hattians seem to have a distinctly German language, much different from that of the Thyatians. Now, I could see where the Heldanners would speak German, given a Latin influence from the Hattian intruders, mixed with the Scandinavian roots of their Heldannic language (and a lot more mixing time that 40-50 years, but that's another story). Yet I don't see how the Hattians, who aren't separated (geographically speaking) that far from the other Thyatians, would have developed this language on their own. Any ideas? >Here's my idea. The immortals could have given them their alphabets or influenced the languages of the tribes, or the mere fact that they followed different immortals could be why they developed different languages, especially if they had a rivalry, then maybe they would not want to talk like "those heretics over there". (If not, there's always the possibility of other immoratals plotting around.) They did live in slightly different areas too. How does this sound? Anyway, if anyone finds out about these immortals, please say so, because I'm not sure if this idea would work. >David Melik Without bothering Immortals, i think the solution to this linguistic topic is a bit difficult but not impossible to find out. That's my personal view as a student of laguages and semiotics: Thyatians, Kerendans and Hattians were in their origins Antalian tribes that Nithians moved from the Heldann-Northern Reaches area to Davania in order to establish there new colonies. Unfortunately for them, they revolted and drove off their masters, and then thrived in the forests and plains of Davania, becoming the ancestors of the Hinterlanders. Then, around 500 BC (or 1000 BC... i don't remember it now), the gnolls invaded Traldar and King Milen fled south to Davania, where after his death a great warleader founded the Empire of Milenia. The Milenians developed a new way of writing and a new tongue, resulted from the influence of the other Neathar and Oltec tribes with which they mingled, and thus the Milenian (Greek) was born. The Milenians then conquered and enslaved the surrounding populations, influencing heavily their culture and language. At this time, the Kerendans, Thyatians and Hattians migrated northward to avoid the complete submission to Milenians, and arrived in modern day Thyatis. Thyatians and Kerendans had been strongly influenced by Milenian-Greek culture, and so they developed a new language and culture based 10% on their old Antalian ancestry and 80% on the Milenian culture, resulting in the Thyatian-Latin language and culture. Then, as the centuries passed, Kerendans developed their own language based on 2 distinct ethnic groups, the Kerendans (Italians, and Italian is the result of the mixture of Latin and Italic dialects) and the Ispans (Spanish, very much similar to Italian and Latin). What about the Hattians? Simply, they remained very attached to the old ways of the Antalians and their dialect and culture is a close reflection of this: it is not Antalian since it was influenced by Thyatian and Milenian, but it is very much similar (the same difference between High German and Low German, or maybe between German and Danish). >>For that matter, it seems to me that after 200+ years, Glantrians would have some sort of common Glantrian tongue that is spoken at least in the more centralized regions of Glantri (and likely being a smattering of all the various languages of the Principalities). I can see the various Alphatians and perhaps the clannish Scots of Klantyre maintaining their oral traditions as much as possible, but it seems to me that a common language should have developed by now. In addition, some of the more outlying dominions, such as the very isolated Viscounty of Blofeld, would have developed very distinct dialects of this root language- not so much that they couldn't communicate with more centrally located Glantrians, but enough that a good linguist could note from which region the speaker hailed from. I agree. There is indeed a Glantrian tongue and i suspect it's either a mixture of the dialects spoken in Glantri (a sort of Esperanto) or the old Flaemish dialect adopted by all who settled there (even though some cultures with a strong individuality may have retained their dialect, such as Keltic for Klantyre, Averoignese for Averoigne and maybe Alphatian for old Blackhill) That is the end of my long Essay on Lingustics. Hope to put out something decent about all the KW languages someday... DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:59:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] some Wendar ideas (long) On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, David Melik wrote: >>>I was sort of disappointed with him actually. Here they had this great Tolkienesque place, and if I recall the storyline was somewhat epic. And then there's this not-so-great villain behind it all, and the heroes actually get to face him and even kill him. Of course, I should say, he's *supposedly* behind it all... >Someone made a post on how Landryn could actually be more powerful, but I still don't think people should actually get the chance to face the real villain. I agree. Ofcourse this depåends on the campaign style. Its kinda hard keeping the PC's from meeting him if they have Teriak seeking crystal balls and teleport spells. However I think that if the PCs should kill teriak it should be by leading an army through denagoth and eventually facing him, like a certain attack on Sauron. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 15:55:37 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) That's our Top 3 list so far about Mystara: 1. Wrath of the Immortals (surprisingly enough, the event that changed Mystara's face drastically is the best supplement so far created) 2. Hollow World (another must have for all Mystaran archologists and historians) 3. Gaz3: Principalities of Glantri (one of the best things Bruce Heard has ever made) Honorable mention: PWA series, Champions of Mystara, Gaz1: Karameikos follow close to enter the hall of fame That's the Worst 3 so far: 1. Gaz4: Kingdom of Ierendi (really one of the most strange supplements: it is not that bad, but still it is unnervingly charmless) 2. Joshuan Alamanc (well... maybe he was drunk when he printed it...) 3. Survival Kits (DM and Player) (TSR needed to use those old sheets of paper left in the warehouse and came up with this abomination) Dishonorable mention (the Infamy's column): Gaz2: Ylaruam, Dragon's Den amd some adventures (IM1, X1, X7) Feel free to add to the list everything published about Mystara and/or OD&D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 97 10:01:08 EST From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again DM writes: >Hey, it's me again with another interesting issue about the elven history: aside the Wendar elves, i think there is another mystery that few have come to notice: the Trueflower clan of the Thothian Plateau (M5, Talons of Night - btw Night is Nyx, ain't it?). Where do they come from? IMHO, they could very well be one of the lost clans... Seems that I've missed a clan... I should look through that module... Do they have a Tree of Life? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 97 10:03:25 EST From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rad and priests Haavard Roenne Faanes writes: >On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >>Now i wanna know this one: who can for sure state: "i am a priest of Rad", if we all know Rad HATE clerics? And thus going along this hypothesis, who gains the special benefit associated with Rad (WotI DM's book), namely +1 to Int and Wis? It could be the Shepherds, but then they would be the first priests- not-priests (after the thief-not-thief, i.e. the rake:)) Any ideas? >I have always been puzzled by the fact that an immortal would not want clerics. Wouldn't Rad fade if he didn't have any followers? Yes, he would. But he does have followers. Almost all of Glantri, worships his "philosophy" thereby making them his followers. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:29:30 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Classes On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: TThor, >I don't give my rangers any two-weapon thingies. I give them MU and Druid spells starting at higher levels (10 and 8 respectively if I remember). I do give them a hide in shadows and move silently ability. I think that I have it at one-half level as a thief. I was intending to do something like that too at the higher up levels, as well as animal agents, etc.. I'm going to have a talk with my brother (the DM) about this two-weapon thing, because it's a bit silly. As for the MS and HS abilities, currently they're just the ones from the AD&D PHB. I'll probably change it to some approximation of theives' skills soon. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:45:43 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? I wrote: >>I never thought of this before: AD&D allows Mystaran Elves to be Clerics? In that case, the Shadow Elves will be rather UN-unique in AD&D Mystara since they won't be the only elves with Clerics (ie Shamans) as such. I did notice in PWA3 that the Schattenalfen are ruled by two clerics, and I wondered about that. Now I realise that it was released for AD&D, and I'm wondering more... On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 DM wrote: OOk, let's clear this a bit: there are elven clerics in OD&D Mystara and they are the Tree Keepers (or any Keeper of the Sacred Relic, in general). Sorry, I disagree with this. What makes them clerics? They have access to some clerical spells, yes, but they are not clerics per se. Okay, I suppose they are the Alfheim equivalent. >They >are covered in GAZ5: the Elves of Alfheim (a bit obsolete now, i suppose..) Obsolete? I think not. It was always one of the best Gazetteers, one of the reasons I was a little worried about the events of WotI (I still don't quite know what to think about WotI). >and here it is mentioned also the elf-mage class (the standard OD&D elf is basically an elf-warrior). Oh come on, elf-warrior? Rubbish! They get spells, they're much more fighter/mages. Elf-mages only matter for higher levels. >Moreover, there are dwarf-clerics (of Kagyar and i suspect of Garal Glitterlode too) detalied in GAZ6: the Dwarves of Rockhome and even halfling-clerics (the Masters are hins with clerical-wizardish powers given to the halflings by their Immortals, the High Heroes Nob Nar, Brindorhin and Coberham - not mentioned anywhere except in GAZ8: seems that the halflings are underestimated also when they become immortal :)) as written in GAZ8: the Five Shires. I know about all of these, but I was more interested in the Elven point of view in regards to clerics. The point is, in standard D&D elven clerics are unheard of, being restricted as you pointed out to special cases - Treekeepers and Shamans (Soul Crystal-keepers if you like to keep things in clan perspective). However in AD&D Mystara any elf can be a cleric without any special circumstances beyond the standard requirements of the class. This affects the "soul crystals don't work on the surface" rules a lot, because Shadow Elves wishing to be Shamans could instead be clerics of Rafiel. Especially in light of the unofficial AC 1014 Almanac's Shadow Elf events (the raising of Aengmor, in part to de-power the shamans of Rafiel), such free distribution of clerics among the elves is not in form with the D&D version of the world. I hope that made things clearer. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 97 16:36:19 EST From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Classes necromancer@vabch.com writes: >Has anyone out there designed any new classes for OD&D? I've been working on a bard, a ranger, and I've done a little work on an illusionist. I don't own anything besides the RC and a few modules so some of what I've done may have been 'officially' done elsewhere. Actually, DoE has details on a ranger-like class, called the Forester, which might help you. Also, Dragon had info on a bard class - your idea would probably be better - TSR's D&D bard was basically a thief minus a couple of thief skills, with charm abilities added on. For my own part, I've designed a spy class - has some thief abilities, plus spells helping the PC conceal himself (no offensive spells). Geoff> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 00:07:28 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rad and priests At 10.19 02/04/97 +0000, you wrote: >Now i wanna know this one: who can for sure state: "i am a priest of Rad", if we all know Rad HATE clerics? And thus going along this hypothesis, who gains the special benefit associated with Rad (WotI DM's book), namely +1 to Int and Wis? It could be the Shepherds, but then they would be the first priests- not-priests (after the thief-not-thief, i.e. the rake:)) Any ideas? IMO Rad has no clerics (at least not in Glantri), but he has followers (almost the whole population of Glantri) and Shepherds. I imagine this Sheperds as wizards-priest: they're wizard (in game terms) but they behave as priest (in working terms). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 00:07:32 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 10.31 02/04/97 +0000, you wrote: >Rockhome and even halfling-clerics (the Masters are hins with clerical-wizardish powers given to the halflings by their Immortals, the High Heroes Nob Nar, Brindorhin and Coberham - not mentioned anywhere except in GAZ8: seems that the halflings are underestimated also when they become immortal :)) as written in GAZ8: the Five Shires. IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, anyway I may be wrong. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 00:07:23 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gnomish Timeline At 01.32 02/04/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-01 22:47:14 EST, jsmill@IMAP1.ASU.EDU (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: ><< Seems to me there are other gnomes scattered about the SC. >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:43:12 -0600 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #32 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1cb15e2dd3828730bc3128769beec7d4 >I don't know about that -- the boxed set specifically denies their existence on the Savage Coast, and their presence in Hule is possible only because, technically, Hule is not considered to be part of the Savage Coast proper. I found that info about gnomes in Hule in PWA2 and being Hule a meltpot of races it's not hard to believe that there're gnomes too. About the rest of the SC I didn't find evidence of gnomish settlements neither in the boxed set, as you said, nor in the Princess Ark Chronicles. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 00:19:49 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 20.45 02/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 DM wrote: OOOk, let's clear this a bit: there are elven clerics in OD&D Mystara and they are the Tree Keepers (or any Keeper of the Sacred Relic, in general). >Sorry, I disagree with this. What makes them clerics? They have access to some clerical spells, yes, but they are not clerics per se. Okay, I suppose they are the Alfheim equivalent. I play OD&D so I consider them the elven clerics, though in fact they're not "real clerics" as an AD&D elf-cleric >>They >>are covered in GAZ5: the Elves of Alfheim (a bit obsolete now, i suppose..) >Obsolete? I think not. It was always one of the best Gazetteers, one of the reasons I was a little worried about the events of WotI (I still don't quite know what to think about WotI). If you want to know more about the invasion of Alfheim I wrote a complete timeline last summer, you can find it somewhere on the net (or ask me). >>and here it is mentioned also the elf-mage class (the standard OD&D elf is basically an elf-warrior). >Oh come on, elf-warrior? Rubbish! They get spells, they're much more fighter/mages. Elf-mages only matter for higher levels. >>Moreover, there are dwarf-clerics (of Kagyar and i suspect of Garal Glitterlode too) detalied in GAZ6: the Dwarves of Rockhome and even halfling-clerics (the Masters are hins with clerical-wizardish powers given to the halflings by their Immortals, the High Heroes Nob Nar, Brindorhin and Coberham - not mentioned anywhere except in GAZ8: seems that the halflings are underestimated also when they become immortal :)) as written in GAZ8: the Five Shires. >I know about all of these, but I was more interested in the Elven point of view in regards to clerics. The point is, in standard D&D elven clerics are unheard of, being restricted as you pointed out to special cases - Treekeepers and Shamans (Soul Crystal-keepers if you like to keep things in clan perspective). >However in AD&D Mystara any elf can be a cleric without any special circumstances beyond the standard requirements of the class. This affects the "soul crystals don't work on the surface" rules a lot, because Shadow Elves wishing to be Shamans could instead be clerics of Rafiel. But they don't have the same powers of Shamans. The Shamans are the only Shadow Elves that can cast Fireball while a cleric can't do that and this is only an example. Anyway this thing of elves cleric of Rafiel needs more debate especially in light of the new almanac, I'm personally against it, but that's only my humble opinion as OD&D player. >Especially in light of the unofficial AC 1014 Almanac's Shadow Elf events (the raising of Aengmor, in part to de-power the shamans of Rafiel), such free distribution of clerics among the elves is not in form with the D&D version of the world. >I hope that made things clearer. I think that creates more problems :) BTW: about that Fireball example. Now that more Shadow Elves can freely go to Glantri and buy a Fireball spell, the power of the Shamans will decrease, won't it? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:27:54 +0000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (Stan) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Past Projects. >I have been gone from this list for quite some time. I was hoping that someone might be able to tell me how i may be able to get hold of all the excellent material that may have been turned out by the busy bees present on this list. >Is there an FTP site i can go too. >If this is an often ask question perhaps some kind soul could simply send me the lists FAQ file and i will attempt not to interrupt your discussion with my pointless trivialities. >Thanx in advance. You could also go to my homepage at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 which has all the files collected and is recent up to 31 March 97. Just thought I'd plug my own page? Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 17:04:45 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >PS: who had the idea of the Irish-Scottish-Celtic culture in the Isle of Dawn (Westrourke and Redstone)? It was really cool, but i wonder where did it originated, cause it seems there was something similar also at the Alfheim-Darokin border, according to Tall Tales of the Wee Folk (great supplement), near the Dreamlands... I believe it was Michael Roy's idea, but it is definitely alluded to on the second Trail Map, which details quite closely many of the western countries on the Isle of Dawn. My own opinion is that the Forest of the Sidhe is where the Kingdom of Faylinn (the leprechaun kingdom mentioned in PC1) is located, and where the Fairy Court has located since the 'destruction' of the Dreamlands. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 17:07:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aliens and the Alphatians... On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >Well well, it is stated in PWA1014 that the Alphatians claim to have originated onto another world, and so it is proved that there are aliens and that the cropping burnings described in Joshuan Almanac were real sign of aliens... But noone does seem to understand that Alphatians originated from the Outer Planes (Draesten), from the Plane of Energy (that's why there were so many spellcasters and they were so powerful) and the higher wizards (as Rikard Prospero is and i think Aldashir McCallum is too) know this. I thought they were just from another plane; I don't recall where it says they come from the Plane of Energy (is there such a plane?) Is this from WotI? >There are denizens of the other planes in the Prime, but Mystarans cannot be sure there are aliens from other Prime Plane worlds out there (we know there are, and when somebody will meet Emerondians and describe their culture and history, than there will be no more doubts).. Haldemar has met them, fairly recently (c. AC 1000). It was during his explorations of the Princess Ark that we first are introduced to the Emerondians. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:37:14 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathan Devaprasad <96devapr@scar.utoronto.ca> Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Mike Harvey wrote: >>I was wondering if the Mystara Net Community could come together to make an on-line map of Mystara. That way people wanting to submit information of new areas would have a point of refernece? >I would like to see this too. TSR's maps of mystara are rather ugly (IMO) and I don't have a complete map of the world. Also, I finally found a used copy of Hollow World and the maps were *missing* (argh!) Anyway, I'd love to see such a thing... ;-) >Mike >---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey >HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon Yes Please, I am in need of maps, and I could sure use it. Especially with all the modifications I have made. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:45:45 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara At 09:44 AM 3/31/97 -0600, you wrote: >I was wondering if the Mystara Net Community could come together to make an on-line map of Mystara. That way people wanting to submit information of new areas would have a point of refernece? >Just a Thought, thanks. >Reginald the MageSlayer Isn't TSR scanning stuff now? I think it would be cool to get the world maps scanned, and also scan the hex maps and put them together into one huge .jpg and .gif. Maybe they'd let someone upload it to MPGN. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 19:53:30 EST From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? >IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, anyway I may be wrong. Is this something in Gaz 8? I didn't know they were atheist. What about the halfling Immortal Usamigaras? NB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 18:09:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Nicholas C Bambakidis wrote: >>IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, anyway I may be wrong. >Is this something in Gaz 8? I didn't know they were atheist. What about the halfling Immortal Usamigaras? In fact, GAZ8 makes it pretty clear that there are halfling immortals (even if it doesn't make it clear exactly who they are). I wouldn't think being an atheist would have any bearing on whether or not one could become Immortal, frankly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 18:07:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, David Melik wrote: >Isn't TSR scanning stuff now? I think it would be cool to get the world maps scanned, and also scan the hex maps and put them together into one huge .jpg and .gif. Maybe they'd let someone upload it to MPGN. They have a Mystara place reserved on their web site, but nothing's on it yet (truth be told, it isn't even really up). Perhaps if someone asks Sean Reynolds nicely, he can start to put it together for us. I also recall all of those spots will have space for contributions from fans, so maybe we can get the 1014 Almanac up there, too. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:59:42 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) (fwd) Well, I must to Introduce me, I'm a newbie.... I was born in Argentina, so I don't speak English very well (I think i speak it VERY BAD), I am playing OD&D since 15 years and realy love it (I hate AD$D), I like RuneQuest to... This are My vote on the Best and the Worst of Mystara... Best 1. Rule Cyclopedia (It's amazing the Hudge amount of info in this book) 2. L'epreuve des Segneurs de la Guerre (I dont remember his name in Engl. but it's like "Warlords Tets?") 3. Orc of Thar Gazeteer (special mention to: Red Arrow Black Shield, Wrath Of The Inmortals, le palais de la princesse Argenta (B4 if I remember)) Worst... 1. X1 2. Ylaruam Gaz 3. Ierendi Gaz >That's our Top 3 list so far about Mystara: >1. Wrath of the Immortals (surprisingly enough, the event that changed Mystara's face drastically is the best supplement so far created) 2. Hollow World (another must have for all Mystaran archologists and historians) 3. Gaz3: Principalities of Glantri (one of the best things Bruce Heard has ever made) >Honorable mention: PWA series, Champions of Mystara, Gaz1: Karameikos follow close to enter the hall of fame >That's the Worst 3 so far: >1. Gaz4: Kingdom of Ierendi (really one of the most strange supplements: it is not that bad, but still it is unnervingly charmless) 2. Joshuan Alamanc (well... maybe he was drunk when he printed it...) 3. Survival Kits (DM and Player) (TSR needed to use those old sheets of paper left in the warehouse and came up with this abomination) >Dishonorable mention (the Infamy's column): Gaz2: Ylaruam, Dragon's Den amd some adventures (IM1, X1, X7) >Feel free to add to the list everything published about Mystara and/or OD&D - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:39:05 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] next almanac: Taverns and Rahasia >>I think we should use the wine in the tavern tour at any rate. >Sounds like a plan to me. Wonder what Averoigne vineyard the Champagne du le Stomp is from? Particularly since it couldn't be called a champagne, really... it's a sparkling wine. ;) Why do you say Averoigne though (is it because the wizard you mentioned who could have made it lives there?) That isn't the only French-type principality though, is it? In PC4, they've got French words and expressions in the back but I thought it was in Morlay Malinbois... Maybe we should have some adventure ideas with it too, like some collector wants you to seek out rare wines in Glantri, but you run into problems with lycanthropes and mages... P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:39:08 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Almanac [this was quite long so I cut stuff in various places] TThis is Micheal's answer to a mail by David Melik that appeared on the list a few days ago. Ok, here's my reply, and BTW I'm sending this to Micheal too, so you don't have to forward so much stuff, Fabrizio. >>As for the horoscope, I haven't seen it at all... anyone know which digest # it is in? If they are compatible, all the better. The one thing is that the AC 1014 Almanac is done, and I won't change anything even if it's not perfect. Lot of places have been left out (purposely and accidentaly) and they can be included in the next Almanac. If you've read it, I'm sure you've noticed the editors often mention "We don't know much yet, but as we get the information, it will appear in future editions..." That was basically me excuse line for things that were not included and the statement that they will be included in future editions. Well, I have no idea if it's in a digest or not, but it is at: Just one question, I noticed in a place or 2 you said "edited for brevity." This doesn't mean that there were tons of actual useable info. and stats that were taken out does it? (Not that that matters, it's a huge project and there's plenty of info., I'm just curious.) Is it sort of a variant of the statement above, but the edited info won't necessarily appear? >>Old World... hmm I like that one. Anyone else with an opinion or vvote? Heh heh, actually I think I'm just used to thinking of the 1st rectangle as "The Known World," and I like "Old World" being another name for Blackmoor now that I've mentioned it. :) However, I can use that in my own campaign (is IMOC a net-abbreviation for this? Although I've been on it over a year I still don't know all those...) since it's a very simple modification. If people want something plausibe to split up the different areas, I still think it would be realistic to use even if I might not. Well, you've explained what you meant and how you do the almanac, and that's actually what I sort of suspected. You must really be doing your best then, and I guess although it's fine for other projects, an almanac would be too time-consuming to get out in a year if it was done very democratically on the list. So pleease don't take it personally. :) >>One question: since when does Darokin have airships? As for the Gargantoid, that's another episode open for ideas and development... any suggestions out there? As I said Volospin's Dragonfly is in AC11 Book of Woundrous Inventions (but I left of the title...), I don't know when, but IMO it should be integrated along with the rest of this airship activity. Maybe some timelines and events for previous years (since Glantri *is* a magic-user country and would likely be one of the 1st places to have airships) would be good as well as for AC1015 if it was possible. I would like to write up the stats for the dragonfly, but that's a long way off... if anyone else wants to do it, you might as well, it's probably pretty obvious and quick (or so we think :) ) P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:39:23 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] next almanac: Taverns and Rahasia >I will do my part; I am detailing a tavern in Kern, Sablestone, which I will post later today probably. However, this gave me an idea. In module B7: Rahasia, there are many bottles of wine from . They include "Red Dragon Crush," "Purple Grapemash No 3," and Champagne du le Stomp." This last wine in particular sounds Glantrian. Even if this module occurs in Karameikos, as presented in B1-9, they could have imported Glantrian wine. However, I believe that Rahasia is best set in Erewan of Glantri. After all, it doesn't really fit where B1-9 locates it (off the Duke's Road smewhere between Kelvin and the Darokin border), for there are no elven communities mentioned in this area in GAZ1 or K:KofA. A temple full of elves but with no clerics sounds like a particularly Glantrian thing. And finally, the mood is Glantrian, because magic is prominent and the principal villain is an evil cleric. What does the list think? I think we should use the wine in the tavern tour at any rate. I'm not sure about the location, but let's definitely use it, it sounds Glantrian. Did you have something in mind or were you calling it to everyone's attention so anybody could do it? I have B7, but the only Glantri supplement I have is PC4, so I don't know if I'd be able to do a good job with it... (BTW, to all you helpful people who say the urls where you can buy more Mystara stuff, I know them, but you've got to have the money for it first... guess I need a job again!) This Glantri tour is a great idea, but maybe we should expand it, into a guide to the taverns and foods of all countries. Maybe a lot of detail for Glantri would be nice, but *everywhere* adventurers go, it's nice to know about the local taverns, food, & drink. But if you have campaign for a long time in one area, maybe not. So, we could focus on Glantri now and do the other countries as separate projects later. As for me, I don't really care. What do the rest of you think? BTW did are you going to post your tavern soon Patrick? :) P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #32 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #33 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, April 3 1997 Volume 02 : Number 033 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:39:42 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again At 10:01 AM 4/2/97 EST, you wrote: >DM writes: >> >> Hey, it's me again with another interesting issue about the elven history: >> aside the Wendar elves, i think there is another mystery that few have come >> to notice: the Trueflower clan of the Thothian Plateau (M5, Talons of Night >> - btw Night is Nyx, ain't it?). Where do they come from? IMHO, they could >> very well be one of the lost clans... > Lost clans? With trees of life? Maybe we should save some for Skothar and Davania! (because there's only a certain number of trees of life, right?) Oops, these were only the ones that went with Ilsundal, weren't they? I guess I should just wait for those migration timelines that a couple of people are going to post. (no rush.) I have another idea I'm thinking about for MO though, maybe their ToLs are a different species and are called something different, or maybe they have entirely different relics... P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:39:37 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Linguistics [well, it's snipped since it was long] >That is the end of my long Essay on Lingustics. Hope to put out something >decent about all the KW languages someday... > I just wanted to say, that sounds like an excellent explanation. Bravo! I did all the research I thought I could do, but you seem to have found out more. Was some of it from Daniels Boese's awesome timeline perhaps? A thought just popped into my head, if you're a student in college, or for anyone who is, try asking your teachers if you can do an essay or a project that needs a fake situation or something, using Mystara. I've heard of this guy who did his master's thesis on D&D! So maybe they'll let anyone do something small. I'm not in college yet, so I don't know if they would, I'm just speculating. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:58:05 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Timeline Hi. Years and years ago I entered all of the timeline data from all the gazetteers, DotE, the Hollow World sets and the Creature Crucibles into a database. It ended up I think something like 16000 words, ad incidentally I credit it with increasing my typing speed a very great deal. :-) I just found it in my hard disk a few weeks ago, and I was wondering if it would be helpful to other people too. I am just in the process of bringing it up to date and putting in the sources for all of the information. Once that is done, it ought to be a complete timeline of all of the official D&D Mystara sources [that I have access to]. This could be invaluable for people conducting research into certain races, etc., and wanting all of the official information before they start grafting new bits on. Is anyone interested? Incidentally some of it is typed in my own words, other bits are straight copied text. Are there copyright implications in amalgamating all this text? I've already noticed timelines in the digest and on the WWW using TSR's words, so is it okay to do this? Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:28:14 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gnomish Timeline On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >I found that info about gnomes in Hule in PWA2 and being Hule a meltpot of >races it's not hard to believe that there're gnomes too. >About the rest of the SC I didn't find evidence of gnomish settlements >neither in the boxed set, as you said, nor in the Princess Ark Chronicles. From the Hollow World timeline: "BC 2900: The Immortal Garal Glitterlode creates the gnomish race, planting colonies of them in the land which would later become Rockhome and the mountains of the northern continent." Note the last sentence: the mountains of the northern continent. That is a pretty loose phrase. Depending on your interpretation, Gnomes could be in a lot of different places throughout the continent. Which is not to say that Gnomes are EVERYWHERE (even though Fabrizio and I would probably like that... ;-), just that there are probably some "lost colonies" outside the frame of the current Known World. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:29:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rad and priests On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >IMO Rad has no clerics (at least not in Glantri), but he has followers >(almost the whole population of Glantri) and Shepherds. I imagine this >Sheperds as wizards-priest: they're wizard (in game terms) but they behave >as priest (in working terms). Right on! This followers business isn't as comple as you might have thought. Non- cleric followers still count as followers. Clerics are just *servants* of the Immortals imbued with certain beneficial powers to carry out their will. (In very GENERAL terms!) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:51:02 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Hin Immortals On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 Nicholas C Bambakidis wrote: > > >>IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, >>anyway I may be wrong. >> >Is this something in Gaz 8? I didn't know they were atheist. What about >the halfling Immortal Usamigaras? GAZ8 p. 5, Player's Book: "Halflings venerate elders but regard most religious behaviour with head-shaking bemusement. This bewilderment is particularly strong in such cases as in the Emirates of Ylaruam where such behaviour involves cruelty to others, uneven hospitality, or treatment of folk simply because of belief. They also view with disdain hardships visited upon anyone in the name of a creed. "Faith, order and clear aims are good things, but there should be limits to such beliefs. When others are hurt, deprived, enslaved or compelled to direct their lives in certain strict manners because of one's religion, that line has been crossed. A halfling will fearlessly tell even a cleric so; the support of some Immortal or other is no excuse for one's own excessive actions." HOWEVER... just because they don't worship Immortals doesn't mean they can't BECOME Immortals. Besides, Halfling Clans could be said to venerate Halfling Immortals because they are respectful of epic heroes and ancestors who did great deeds. It's not human following, but then demihumans are allowed to be different. After all, the elves don't really worship Ilsundal as such, and certainly not Mealiden, in the same way as humans do. Any thoughts on this? Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:45:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >At 20.45 02/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >>On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 DM wrote: >>>Ok, let's clear this a bit: there are elven clerics in OD&D Mystara and they >>>are the Tree Keepers (or any Keeper of the Sacred Relic, in general). >> >>Sorry, I disagree with this. What makes them clerics? They have access >>to some clerical spells, yes, but they are not clerics per se. Okay, I >>suppose they are the Alfheim equivalent. > >I play OD&D so I consider them the elven clerics, though in fact they're not >"real clerics" as an AD&D elf-cleric That's what I meant. Incidentally I have never actually played AD&D, indeed I also play OD&D. >If you want to know more about the invasion of Alfheim I wrote a complete >timeline last summer, you can find it somewhere on the net (or ask me). Could you send me a copy please? Thanks. >>However in AD&D Mystara any elf can be a cleric without any special >>circumstances beyond the standard requirements of the class. This >>affects the "soul crystals don't work on the surface" rules a lot, >>because Shadow Elves wishing to be Shamans could instead be clerics of >>Rafiel. > >But they don't have the same powers of Shamans. The Shamans are the only >Shadow Elves that can cast Fireball while a cleric can't do that and this is >only an example. True. >Anyway this thing of elves cleric of Rafiel needs more debate especially in >light of the new almanac, I'm personally against it, but that's only my >humble opinion as OD&D player. I agree. Elves get to be mages and fighters, but not clerics except in special cases. >>Especially in light of the unofficial AC 1014 Almanac's Shadow Elf >>events (the raising of Aengmor, in part to de-power the shamans of >>Rafiel), such free distribution of clerics among the elves is not in >>form with the D&D version of the world. >> >>I hope that made things clearer. > >I think that creates more problems :) > >BTW: about that Fireball example. >Now that more Shadow Elves can freely go to Glantri and buy a Fireball >spell, the power of the Shamans will decrease, won't it? Yes I suppose it will, but normal Shadow Elves could always cast Lightning Bolts anyway, and they're just as powerful (especially in caves - lots of places for them to bounce off). This is a very complex area, and I'm not sure it's easily solvable. Incidentally, the raising of Aengmor would not in itself immediately destroy all of the Shadow Elves' faith in Rafiel, nor would the Shamans be completely powerless with no Soul Crystals. While we're on the subject, I noticed some discussion of Rafiel's motives for getting the elves to invade Alfheim in some old digests. Surely his motives are explicitly obvious: as a member of the Fellowship of the Star, he wanted to place an extra barrier between the Alphatians and Glantri. It said this in WotI. So it has NOTHING to do with Atzanteotl supposedly influencing Telemon to invade Alfheim and Rafiel "half-heartedly" doing the same to regain the Shadow Elves' favour! Any thoughts? I feel quite strongly on this subject, and I'd love to discuss it with anyone who has any objections or questions. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:59:43 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Hin Immortals On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >> Is this something in Gaz 8? I didn't know they were atheist. What about >> the halfling Immortal Usamigaras? > >In fact, GAZ8 makes it pretty clear that there are halfling immortals >(even if it doesn't make it clear exactly who they are). I wouldn't >think being an atheist would have any bearing on whether or not one >could become Immortal, frankly. Exactly. Also, I get the impression that "belief" isn't quite so much an issue on Mystara. After all, there is undeniable evidence of their existance all around. More important is faith, and probably respect too. So "atheism" isn't really a valid term for D&D. Incidentally, I found another relevant quote from GAZ8, this time the Player Guide p.19: "[Halfling] Masters know that their powers come from 'The High Heroes' (halfling Immortals) Nob Nar, Coberham Shadowglint, and Brindorhin." Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:03:32 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Classes On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 Geoff Gander wrote: > Actually, DoE has details on a ranger-like class, called the Forester, >which might help you. Also, Dragon had info on a bard class - your idea >would probably be better - TSR's D&D bard was basically a thief minus a >couple of thief skills, with charm abilities added on. > > For my own part, I've designed a spy class - has some thief >abilities, plus spells helping the PC conceal himself (no offensive spells). I once developed an Assassin character class with a friend. It mixed the Magic-User and Theif classes with a few cool extra rules put in. I based it around the assassins in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel "Pyramids". It was certainly a fun class to play, though thankfully the player wasn't playing a Chaotic character but a Neutral one, with the same code of assassination found in "Pyramids". Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:47:50 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aliens and the Alphatians... On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >I thought they were just from another plane; I don't recall where it says >they come from the Plane of Energy (is there such a plane?) Is this from >WotI? It was in the DotE boxed set, I think. I recall groaning at the time I read that because it sounds as if someone is mistaking spheres of power with physical places again. (Although there may be a plane of energy - in fact I'm sure most Energy Immortals' home planes could be considered "planes of energy"). Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:38:57 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 David Melik wrote: >Isn't TSR scanning stuff now? I think it would be cool to get the world >maps scanned, and also scan the hex maps and put them together into one huge >.jpg and .gif. Maybe they'd let someone upload it to MPGN. I shouldn't think TSR would mind if the maps were distributed through MPGN, especially since it's all out of print. Besides, it's always best to have the actual maps anyway. I would be willing to scan in the maps, but I have to point out there are some inherent problems in pasting them together *in* the computer: you have to scan the maps exactly straight, every one the same angle, or you'll end up with a warped map. This would be pretty hard with the equipment I have access to, and frankly unless someone has a scanner the size of the trail maps, it's likely to take a long time and then be imperfect. :-( Recently I scanned all the Princess Ark maps (only to find them online in the Savage Coast set, about two hours later...), and tried to paste them together. Doing it in the computer was impossible, so instead I printed them out and set them together. It worked quite well up until the point where I discovered a big continuity problem with the Western portion of the Kingdom of Herath... Basically it's a great idea, but it's not very feasable to scan the maps. :-( Anyone have any cool ideas on this subject? Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:24:37 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem Hi again. Has this Aengmor/Aengmor thing gotten anyone else upset? Personally it really bugs me. Why would the Shadow Elves keep their two places with the same names? However, I think I have a solution that solves the problem while not really changing things much at all - hopefully a solution that would be close to what an "official" solution might have been (and thus one that won't annoy anyone). Simply start calling Alfheim/Aengmor *NEW AENGMOR*. It worked for the USA and Canada. Australia also has New ... areas, then there's New Zealand, etc., etc., etc.! What do you all think? It's simple, elegant, and incredibly efficient. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:04:07 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: [Mystara] oops, and almanacs Okay, Micheal asked but I was looking for the site and it didn't go there, so I forgot. The horoscope is at: http://www.miniworld.com/adnd/mystarra/ Someone mentioned we need it for 12 months, but my opinion is, we don't, it's good to use all the info. we can get. Maybe something happened to the person writing it like they died or retired. Anyway the almanac is out now, so it's a moot point. Also there are several poor wizards almanacs at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4206/mystara.htm Has anyone read these? I wonder if they are compatible with MA5... P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 22:30:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] next almanac: Taverns and Rahasia On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, David Melik wrote: > Why do you say Averoigne though (is it because the wizard you mentioned who > could have made it lives there?) That isn't the only French-type > principality though, is it? In PC4, they've got French words and > expressions in the back but I thought it was in Morlay Malinbois... True enough, M-M is a french Principality, but it is relatively recent, and is still (IMO) a portion of the realm known as New Averoigne; when I say New Averoigne, I mean not only the Principality itself, but all of the related dominions- Morlay, Malinbois, Fausseflammes, Vyonnes- all of these are based on the imported French culture, and most have names derived directly from Old Averoigne. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:40:32 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara > Basically it's a great idea, but it's not very feasable to scan the > maps. :-( > > Anyone have any cool ideas on this subject? Sure. Create a blank hexmap of the right size. Then create a set of map symbols. Then use a plain old paint program to make a map of mystara, using color-coded hexes and the symbols. I don't think this would infringe TSR copyright since it is made from scratch (and the map would *look* different even though it conveys the same information), and it avoids messy scanned images. It can be easily updated too. I have done this and could even provide the blank hexmap; I just don't have the original Mystara map to copy from... Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:18:37 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 00.07 03/04/97 +0200, you wrote: > >IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, >anyway I may be wrong. > >Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Aargh! An infidel! Watch out, or the mighty armies of the hins, the Fangs of the Shires, will raise and punish you and your malicious protegees, the shadow elves, for this blasphemy...and by the way, who stole my piece o' cake!!!!??? Tarisco Highnose, Sheriff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:23:31 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Halfling Clerics At 19.53 02/04/97 EST, you wrote: > > >>IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, >>anyway I may be wrong. >> >Is this something in Gaz 8? I didn't know they were atheist. What about >the halfling Immortal Usamigaras? > >NB I have Gaz8, and i can state for sure that the Hin of the Shires follow these 3 Immortals, the High Heroes: Nob Nar, Coberham and Brindorhin, who are the ones who give hin Masters their spells and powers. As for Usamigras, the hin don't know him, and i think he's followers only in Cynidicea. DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:35:49 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again At 10.01 02/04/97 EST, you wrote: >DM writes: >> >> Hey, it's me again with another interesting issue about the elven history: >> aside the Wendar elves, i think there is another mystery that few have come >> to notice: the Trueflower clan of the Thothian Plateau (M5, Talons of Night >> - btw Night is Nyx, ain't it?). Where do they come from? IMHO, they could >> very well be one of the lost clans... > > Seems that I've missed a clan... I should look through that >module... Do they have a Tree of Life? >JD It is not stated if they have a Tree of Life (there is very generic info bout them), but this doesn't mean they haven't got one! :) I go with the theory they're one of the lost clans.. DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:39:18 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Behemoth Just to be precise, the TSR guys made a bit of confusion this time with real world references. Behemoth is not a water deity, nor a fish: quite the opposite! He was the terrestrial counterpart of the Leviathan, created by God in ancient days, and said to roam the Afro-asian lands. It has been sometimes associated with the hyppopotamus or the rhino, but it wasn't a fish or a sea-monster, definitely! That sea creature was the Leviathan.... DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:52:25 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aliens and the Alphatians... At 17.07 02/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >I thought they were just from another plane; I don't recall where it says >they come from the Plane of Energy (is there such a plane?) Is this from >WotI? Yes, the Plane of Energy (Draesten) is from WotI, and it is stated in WotI that the Old Alphatian homeworld was here. The reference is also in Dawn of the Emperors and in M1: Into the Maelstrom > >> There are denizens of the other planes in the Prime, but Mystarans >> cannot be sure there are aliens from other Prime Plane worlds out there >> (we know there are, and when somebody will meet Emerondians and >> describe their culture and history, than there will be no more doubts).. > >Haldemar has met them, fairly recently (c. AC 1000). It was during his >explorations of the Princess Ark that we first are introduced to the >Emerondians. I know, but Haldemar didn't inform of this the whole Known World, didn't he? He maybe has told the Empress, but as u know Alphatia is gone now, and in the Hollow World who cares about aliens? Just about every culture down there is "alien" for the Alphatians... So, as i said, there is currently no real proof that Aliens from Other Worlds in the Prime exist... Maybe it's time to create that organization i mentioned some months ago.. the IBS (International Bureau of Security), with dozens of Muldrick and Sculder investigating the strangest phenomenons around the world?? :) Just some thoughts... DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:46:54 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again At 18.39 02/04/97 -0800, you wrote: >Lost clans? With trees of life? Maybe we should save some for Skothar and >Davania! (because there's only a certain number of trees of life, right?) >Oops, these were only the ones that went with Ilsundal, weren't they? I >guess I should just wait for those migration timelines that a couple of >people are going to post. (no rush.) I have another idea I'm thinking about >for MO though, maybe their ToLs are a different species and are called >something different, or maybe they have entirely different relics... >David Melik >darwin@nwinfo.net Ok, in GAZ5, at the very end and at the beginning too, it is explained that when Mealiden fled the Sylvan Realm he created 9 seedlings from the Original Tree of Life with Ilsundal's intercession: these 9 seedlings were not dependent from the original Tree, they were not his daughters! So, there are 10 Trees of Life in Mystara: 1 is the Original in the Sylvan Realm, 6 are the Trees of the Alfheim Elves (the Feadiel's relic is a daughter of the original Tree, so it doesn't count) and another 1 is the Callarii's tree, and that makes 8 trees of life. There are 2 trees left: where are they? I think Clan Trueflower may have another one (they probably took the wrong exit in the Rainbow Highway and ended up in the Isle of Dawn, never to be seen again by the other clans), but there is still one missing... DM PS: did Mealiden create 9 or 10 seedlings? Gee, this one i don't remember... i'll look it up in my GAZ5 at home.. well, in case he created 10, there are 2 trees undiscovered, not just 1. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 14:13:00 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 20.45 02/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 DM wrote: >>Ok, let's clear this a bit: there are elven clerics in OD&D Mystara and they >>are the Tree Keepers (or any Keeper of the Sacred Relic, in general). > >Sorry, I disagree with this. What makes them clerics? They have access >to some clerical spells, yes, but they are not clerics per se. Okay, I >suppose they are the Alfheim equivalent. So, state your mind: are they clerics or not? What does it mean: Alfheim equivalent??? You see, the Tree Keepers are the OD&D elven clerics: you cannot compare them with AD&D elven clerics, cause the 2 system are entirely different on this subject! Elf-clerics can worship only Ilsundal and Mealiden if they wanna become clerics (at least that's what GAZ5 lets us infer), but i suppose they can become also elf-cleric of Ordana, Terra, Eyrindul or even Atzanteotl in the same way. And do not forget there are other elven Keepers: the Frond Keeper for the Aquarendi (Tallivai-Calitha), the Pearl Keeper for the Meditor (do not remember their Immortal, but i suspect it's Protius), and these have the same spells of Tree Keepers. Of course, if u want u can let the elves use the Shaman option as for other humanoid, but that's not really how it was intended. > >>and here it is mentioned also the elf-mage class (the standard OD&D elf is >>basically an elf-warrior). > >Oh come on, elf-warrior? Rubbish! They get spells, they're much more >fighter/mages. Elf-mages only matter for higher levels. C'mon, you know what i mean! The common Expert-Companion-Master set elf is basically a warrior in comparison to the Keeper and the Elf-Mage, that's what i wanted to say. I am not comparing it to the AD&D elf: they're too different! >I know about all of these, but I was more interested in the Elven point >of view in regards to clerics. The point is, in standard D&D elven >clerics are unheard of, being restricted as you pointed out to special >cases - Treekeepers and Shamans (Soul Crystal-keepers if you like to >keep things in clan perspective). Now, OK, this is better... But once you get the rules for the keepers and the like, who forbids you to use 'em to make more elf-clerics (obviously dedicated to Immortals associated with elves or nature. That's the main difference between OD&D and AD&D Mystaran elves: the first ones are very settled in their background -u will never see an elf-cleric of ODin!-, whereas with AD&D rules who can say the player cannot have an elf-cleric of Petra?... but maybe i'm wrong...) >However in AD&D Mystara any elf can be a cleric without any special >circumstances beyond the standard requirements of the class. Well, then maybe i wasn't that wrong with my Petra's elf-cleric hypothesis... >Especially in light of the unofficial AC 1014 Almanac's Shadow Elf >events (the raising of Aengmor, in part to de-power the shamans of >Rafiel), such free distribution of clerics among the elves is not in >form with the D&D version of the world. >Thorfinn. Well, and so? The Shadow Elves are different and have a different culture from the surface elves, that's it. They depended very much on Shamans, that's why there will be many elf-clerics in the years to come, i don't see anything bad about this (odd for the other races maybe, but not for Shadow Elves or DMs who know their history) DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 14:44:12 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again At 17.04 02/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, DM wrote: > >> PS: who had the idea of the Irish-Scottish-Celtic culture in the Isle of >> Dawn (Westrourke and Redstone)? It was really cool, but i wonder where did >> it originated, cause it seems there was something similar also at the >> Alfheim-Darokin border, according to Tall Tales of the Wee Folk (great >> supplement), near the Dreamlands... > >I believe it was Michael Roy's idea, but it is definitely alluded to on >the second Trail Map, which details quite closely many of the western >countries on the Isle of Dawn. My own opinion is that the Forest of the >Sidhe is where the Kingdom of Faylinn (the leprechaun kingdom mentioned >in PC1) is located, and where the Fairy Court has located since the >'destruction' of the Dreamlands. > IIRC I proposed the relocation of the Fairy Court there in my Timeline of the Alfheim Invasion. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:13:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 10.31 02/04/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >Rockhome and even halfling-clerics (the Masters are hins with > >clerical-wizardish powers given to the halflings by their Immortals, the > >High Heroes Nob Nar, Brindorhin and Coberham - not mentioned anywhere except > >in GAZ8: seems that the halflings are underestimated also when they become > >immortal :)) as written in GAZ8: the Five Shires. > > IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, > anyway I may be wrong. Isnt atheist a rather strong term? an atheist denies the existence of the divine (like the dwarves in Torg). Halflings IMHO just take very litle interest in such matters. No hin would devote his life to an immortal. They are buisy fixing their gardens, smoking tobacco, having lunch and adventuring. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:17:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > BTW: about that Fireball example. > Now that more Shadow Elves can freely go to Glantri and buy a Fireball > spell, the power of the Shamans will decrease, won't it? Would they buy the fireball spell or would they avoid doing that in respect of their shamans and out of fear of their immortal Rafiel. The source of a Shaman/Clerics power/authoroty is IMO his Immortal Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:23:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aliens and the Alphatians... On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > I thought they were just from another plane; I don't recall where it says > they come from the Plane of Energy (is there such a plane?) Is this from > WotI? There is no Plane of Energy. Neither is there a Plane of Entrophy/Death as mentioned in some of the Gaz/Adventure Modules. References to the Plane of should be substituted with one plane dominated by that sphere. That means there are many Planes of Energy, not just one. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:29:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Nicholas C Bambakidis wrote: > > > >IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, > >anyway I may be wrong. > > > Is this something in Gaz 8? I didn't know they were atheist. What about > the halfling Immortal Usamigaras? Usamigaras has no hin followers. His followers are only among those in that lost city under Ylaruam, I forget its name. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:54:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > Hi again. > > Has this Aengmor/Aengmor thing gotten anyone else upset? Personally it > really bugs me. Why would the Shadow Elves keep their two places with > the same names? > Simply start calling Alfheim/Aengmor *NEW AENGMOR*. It worked for the > USA and Canada. Australia also has New ... areas, then there's New > Zealand, etc., etc., etc.! > > What do you all think? It's simple, elegant, and incredibly efficient. Why not just call the city Oenkmar? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 15:56:46 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet Gee! I have finally gotten the box! It's really awesome! Does anyone of you wanted to know how Blackmoor exploded? Or where the Beagle came from? Or which technology have they brought to Mystara? And do ya wanna know what is the Secret of the Comet? keep reading S P O I L E R S P A C E You said we had to introduce the Beagle's homeworld and the Federation? No problem guys: they're in Tale of the Comet! The Comet is indeed an asteroid base à la DS9 which has aboard a new invention that allows the Dermochi (the race of Benekander) to cross planes, times and dimensions. unfortunately, during the maiden voyage the artifact malfunctions and the base (Dermochi Spacecraft -project Nova: DSN) is cast adrift in the space, ending up near Mystara (which is not in another dimension, but just the other side of the Galaxy!! -remember ST: Voyager?) Unfortunately again, the crew is suddenly affected by the rays of the sun of Mystaraspace and they undergo strange changes in both body and mind, resulting in madness for somebody and the crew engage in a revolt! They loose the command of the ship and it brakes into 2 parts (it's not destroyed, but it can separate itself, like ST Enterprise): the part with the bad guys crashes on Mystara (it's suggested in Vulcania IIRC) and here the trouble begins (i won't tell you the adventure plotline, it wouldn't be fair). About the technology, i can just name a few thingies: - -laser cannon - -anti gravity belt - -antimatter engine - -solar power plant - -negative shield (also called antilepton shield) - -teleport pads - -tasers - -soundwave cannon (!! remember Starblazers?) - -self destruction engine (it can literally blow up a planet... imagine now how Blackmoor exploded?) Ok, that's all for now: i gotta go plunging into the box and its fabolous charts and stats and new rules.... See ya in 5 days (the time required to read it all) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) Oh, and by the way: April Fool's to everyone (even though a bit late) DM (the now laughing DM) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #33 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #34 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, April 3 1997 Volume 02 : Number 034 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:15:53 -0600 From: Reg Subject: Re: [Mystara] next almanac: Taverns and Rahasia At 06:39 PM 4/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >I'm not sure about the location, but let's definitely use it, it sounds >Glantrian. Did you have something in mind or were you calling it to >everyone's attention so anybody could do it? I have B7, but the only >Glantri supplement I have is PC4, so I don't know if I'd be able to do a >good job with it... >(BTW, to all you helpful people who say the urls where you can buy more >Mystara stuff, I know them, but you've got to have the money for it first... >guess I need a job again!) I can't seem to Find GAZ 3 being sol anywhere (including on Net and Cons). Any help here? Thanks. Reginald the MageSlayer Today would be a good day to die And if I were to do so I would not ask why Life is such a monotony Death, on the other hand, is simple and free But death has an undesirable consequence my friend. It's not that life id do short, Rather, Death has no end. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:07:05 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet So, this actually deals with Blackmoor and not just a generic setting? Cool. > -soundwave cannon (!! remember Starblazers?) They not using that in space, I hope. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 97 13:07:32 EST From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again DM writes: > > >Lost clans? With trees of life? Maybe we should save some for Skothar and > >Davania! (because there's only a certain number of trees of life, right?) > >Oops, these were only the ones that went with Ilsundal, weren't they? I > >guess I should just wait for those migration timelines that a couple of > >people are going to post. (no rush.) I have another idea I'm thinking about > >for MO though, maybe their ToLs are a different species and are called > >something different, or maybe they have entirely different relics... > >David Melik > >darwin@nwinfo.net > > Ok, in GAZ5, at the very end and at the beginning too, it is explained that > when Mealiden fled the Sylvan Realm he created 9 seedlings from the Original > Tree of Life with Ilsundal's intercession: these 9 seedlings were not > dependent from the original Tree, they were not his daughters! So, there are > 10 Trees of Life in Mystara: 1 is the Original in the Sylvan Realm, 6 are > the Trees of the Alfheim Elves (the Feadiel's relic is a daughter of the > original Tree, so it doesn't count) and another 1 is the Callarii's tree, > and that makes 8 trees of life. There are 2 trees left: where are they? I > think Clan Trueflower may have another one (they probably took the wrong > exit in the Rainbow Highway and ended up in the Isle of Dawn, never to be > seen again by the other clans), but there is still one missing... The Shiye have one too, as they departed from Mealiden's migration... It leaves one unaccounted for... The original is dead, but the Feadil took a duaghter of it... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:19:50 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) (fwd) MY> Well, I must to Introduce me, I'm a newbie.... I was born in MY>Argentina, so I don't speak English very well (I think i speak it VERY MY>BAD), I am playing OD&D since 15 years and realy love it (I hate AD$D), I MY>like RuneQuest to... You speak English just fine. MY> 1. X1 MY> 2. Ylaruam Gaz MY> 3. Ierendi Gaz Why does no one like X1? Necromancer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:51:59 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timeline > > Is anyone interested? > Can you send me a copy, or tell me wher I can download your DB.. Thanks - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:44:47 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem At 05.24 03/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >Hi again. > >Has this Aengmor/Aengmor thing gotten anyone else upset? Personally it >really bugs me. Why would the Shadow Elves keep their two places with >the same names? > >However, I think I have a solution that solves the problem while not >really changing things much at all - hopefully a solution that would be >close to what an "official" solution might have been (and thus one that >won't annoy anyone). > >Simply start calling Alfheim/Aengmor *NEW AENGMOR*. It worked for the >USA and Canada. Australia also has New ... areas, then there's New >Zealand, etc., etc., etc.! > >What do you all think? It's simple, elegant, and incredibly efficient. This could be an idea, anyway usually we refer to former Alfheim as Aengmor (nation) or Aengmor (forest) or Aengmor/Rafielton and so on, while the other is simply Aengmor or Aengmor/Oenkmar. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:45:04 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hin Immortals At 03.51 03/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >>>IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, >>>anyway I may be wrong. >>> >>Is this something in Gaz 8? I didn't know they were atheist. What about >>the halfling Immortal Usamigaras? > >GAZ8 p. 5, Player's Book: "Halflings venerate elders but regard most >religious behaviour with head-shaking bemusement. This bewilderment is >particularly strong in such cases as in the Emirates of Ylaruam where >such behaviour involves cruelty to others, uneven hospitality, or >treatment of folk simply because of belief. They also view with disdain >hardships visited upon anyone in the name of a creed. > "Faith, order and clear aims are good things, but there should >be limits to such beliefs. When others are hurt, deprived, enslaved or >compelled to direct their lives in certain strict manners because of >one's religion, that line has been crossed. A halfling will fearlessly >tell even a cleric so; the support of some Immortal or other is no >excuse for one's own excessive actions." > >HOWEVER... just because they don't worship Immortals doesn't mean they >can't BECOME Immortals. Besides, Halfling Clans could be said to >venerate Halfling Immortals because they are respectful of epic heroes >and ancestors who did great deeds. It's not human following, but then >demihumans are allowed to be different. After all, the elves don't >really worship Ilsundal as such, and certainly not Mealiden, in the same >way as humans do. > >Any thoughts on this? Well, probably I didn't express my thoughts clearly. Saying that they're "atheist" I mean that they don't worship Immortals, or at least not in the usual way: temple, shrines, priests, holy books, sacrifices, holy quest... Even the other demihumans have temples (e.g. the Temple of Rafiel in City of the Stars), priest (e.g. the dwarf-cleric in Rockhome), ceremonies... And about Halfling becoming Immortals probably they can do that, but they're not interested in doing that. In fact there aren't reference to halfling Immortals anywhere (Gaz 8, PWA, WotI...). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:45:00 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 04.45 03/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >>I play OD&D so I consider them the elven clerics, though in fact they're not >>"real clerics" as an AD&D elf-cleric > >That's what I meant. Incidentally I have never actually played AD&D, >indeed I also play OD&D. I play also AD&D, but all players are former OD&D players so our elf is a fighter-mage, actually we've no clerics or priests in the group, only a druid. > >>If you want to know more about the invasion of Alfheim I wrote a complete >>timeline last summer, you can find it somewhere on the net (or ask me). > >Could you send me a copy please? Thanks. > Of course. >>Anyway this thing of elves cleric of Rafiel needs more debate especially in >>light of the new almanac, I'm personally against it, but that's only my >>humble opinion as OD&D player. > >I agree. Elves get to be mages and fighters, but not clerics except in >special cases. It would be important for the next unofficial almanacs that almost everyone agrees on not introducing new classes for demihumans (and humans too, e.g. psionics) otherwise there would be a split between the AD&D players and OD&D players, not mentioning the ones that use different systems. So I suggest that elves can be fighter-mages or Treekepers (or Shamans...), dwarf can be fighter or fighter-cleric and halfling can be fighter or... well, what's a Master in AD&D terms, fighter-druid ? > >Incidentally, the raising of Aengmor would not in itself immediately >destroy all of the Shadow Elves' faith in Rafiel, nor would the Shamans >be completely powerless with no Soul Crystals. > >While we're on the subject, I noticed some discussion of Rafiel's >motives for getting the elves to invade Alfheim in some old digests. >Surely his motives are explicitly obvious: as a member of the Fellowship >of the Star, he wanted to place an extra barrier between the Alphatians >and Glantri. It said this in WotI. So it has NOTHING to do with >Atzanteotl supposedly influencing Telemon to invade Alfheim and Rafiel >"half-heartedly" doing the same to regain the Shadow Elves' favour! If you stick to WotI you're right, but since that reasons didn't convince many of us in my Timeline of the Alfheim invasion I used one of Herve's twisted plots introducing Atzanteotl. > >Any thoughts? I feel quite strongly on this subject, and I'd love to >discuss it with anyone who has any objections or questions. > I'll send you the Timeline than we'll discuss on it. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:44:56 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Airships At 18.39 02/04/97 -0800, you wrote: > >>> One question: since when does Darokin have airships? >>> As for the Gargantoid, that's another episode open for ideas and >>>development... any suggestions out there? >>> >As I said Volospin's Dragonfly is in AC11 Book of Woundrous Inventions (but >I left of the title...), I don't know when, but IMO it should be integrated >along with the rest of this airship activity. Maybe some timelines and >events for previous years (since Glantri *is* a magic-user country and would >likely be one of the 1st places to have airships) would be good as well as >for AC1015 if it was possible. I would like to write up the stats for the >dragonfly, but that's a long way off... if anyone else wants to do it, you >might as well, it's probably pretty obvious and quick (or so we think :) ) Yes, Glantri is a magic-user country, but the first settlers of Glantri where the Flaems, masters in Fire magic, while the "followers of air" settled in Alphatia and this is one of the reasons for Alphatia having skyships and Glantri not. Moreover the Dragonfly you mentioned was made by Volospin Aendyr, an Alphatian that settled in Glantri. Probably the Glantrians aren't much interested in air magic and skyships. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:53:28 -0800 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet > So, this actually deals with Blackmoor and not just a generic setting? > Cool. > The bottom of the message said April Fools, so the whole message is bogus. As far as I know, no TSR 97 products have been released yet. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:12:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > IIRC I proposed the relocation of the Fairy Court there in my Timeline of > the Alfheim Invasion. Great minds think alike, eh? ;) I don't recall your mention of that, but I don't think that's where I got the idea, really. I think it was independently arrived at; which makes it all the more reasonable, IMO, for it to be thus. :) Besides, PC1 mentions Faylinn might be on the IoD. I think it's a good idea. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 97 15:45:58 EST From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships Fabrizio Paoli writes: > >for AC1015 if it was possible. I would like to write up the stats for the > >dragonfly, but that's a long way off... if anyone else wants to do it, you > >might as well, it's probably pretty obvious and quick (or so we think :) ) > > Yes, Glantri is a magic-user country, but the first settlers of Glantri > where the Flaems, masters in Fire magic, while the "followers of air" > settled in Alphatia and this is one of the reasons for Alphatia having > skyships and Glantri not. > Moreover the Dragonfly you mentioned was made by Volospin Aendyr, an > Alphatian that settled in Glantri. > Probably the Glantrians aren't much interested in air magic and skyships. But, I bet you they'd be very interested in the magic used by the gnomes of Serraine as part of their power-generators. Recall that they have captured fire-elementals that they use as power for some of their contraptions... Besides, only the original settlers of Glantri were Flaems, now it's a mix of several different magic using cultures. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 14:38:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Why not just call the city Oenkmar? Because any self respecting human/demihuman wouldn't want to associate themselves with such an obvious corrupted humanoid name- it would be uncivilized. Just like any self respecting humanoid wouldn't have anything to do with any human/demihuman names- they're not barbaric enough. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:38:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) (fwd) On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: > Why does no one like X1? > > Necromancer I do! well, its not particularily good, but its the first module I played. Its a classic people Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:16:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > Why not just call the city Oenkmar? > > Because any self respecting human/demihuman wouldn't want to associate > themselves with such an obvious corrupted humanoid name- it would be > uncivilized. > Just like any self respecting humanoid wouldn't have anything to do with > any human/demihuman names- they're not barbaric enough. You are right. It wouldn't be right to call the city new Aengmor either, since it is older than Alfheim/aengmor so the term Aengmor/Oenkmar would be best as Fabrizio suggested. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:49:40 -0600 From: Reg Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara At 11:40 PM 4/2/97 +0000, you wrote: >Sure. Create a blank hexmap of the right size. Then create a set of >map symbols. Then use a plain old paint program to make a map of >mystara, using color-coded hexes and the symbols. I don't think this >would infringe TSR copyright since it is made from scratch (and the >map would *look* different even though it conveys the same >information), and it avoids messy scanned images. It can be easily >updated too. I have done this and could even provide the blank >hexmap; I just don't have the original Mystara map to copy from... Could you send me this program, I'll take a stab at putting everything in to a digitally format. It might take awhile. But I'll give it a try. Send it at Reginald@siu.edu Reginald the MageSlayer Today would be a good day to die And if I were to do so I would not ask why Life is such a monotony Death, on the other hand, is simple and free But death has an undesirable consequence my friend. It's not that life is so short, Rather, Death has no end. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:10:08 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rad and priests In a message dated 97-04-02 06:17:01 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: << I have always been puzzled by the fact that an immortal would not want clerics. Wouldn't Rad fade if he didn't have any followers? >> He has thousands of followers in Glantri and does quite well without clerics, thank you. Or look at it another way: to an Immortal, lay followers are a source of power, as the Immortal does not have to provide them with anything directly -- but clerics are a drain on that power. Rad has a great scam going here -- he has all those loyal followers serving him for free! Elsewhere on Mystara, an Immortal has to give powers to clerics to hold onto his followers. I will bet that many other Immortals are annoyed that they did not come up with this "anti-cleric" idea themselves! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:10:30 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem In a message dated 97-04-03 08:57:05 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: << Why not just call the city Oenkmar? >> Because that is what those vile orcs called it! Actually, given the history of the city of Aengmor and the nation of Aengmor, the Shadow Elves might take to calling their recovered city "Old Aengmor". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:23:38 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet David Keyser pontificated: > > The bottom of the message said April Fools, so the whole message is bogus. > As far as I know, no TSR 97 products have been released yet. > Doh! Didn't expect an april fool message on this board, and since it mentioned april fool on the bottom, I thought it wouldn't be one. Oh, well, no one ever accused me of being very smart. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:43:15 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >This could be an idea, anyway usually we refer to former Alfheim as Aengmor >(nation) or Aengmor (forest) or Aengmor/Rafielton and so on, while the other >is simply Aengmor or Aengmor/Oenkmar. I know, I just thought that New Aengmor and Aengmor might make things easier (and shorter), both in real life and within the campaign world. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:08:26 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Maps of Mystara On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 Mike Harvey wrote: >> Basically it's a great idea, but it's not very feasable to scan the >> maps. :-( >> >> Anyone have any cool ideas on this subject? > >Sure. Create a blank hexmap of the right size. Then create a set of >map symbols. Then use a plain old paint program to make a map of >mystara, using color-coded hexes and the symbols. I don't think this >would infringe TSR copyright since it is made from scratch (and the >map would *look* different even though it conveys the same >information), and it avoids messy scanned images. It can be easily >updated too. I have done this and could even provide the blank >hexmap; I just don't have the original Mystara map to copy from... It's a good idea. I had dismissed it because I tried it once before, and it took a LONG time to get any size of map built up. But that was years ago on a far less powerful computer/paint programme. Have you designed nice-looking equivalent hex symbols for your grid? If the answer is yes, I'd love to see them. And then I'd be willing to do some work on the map... Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:08:39 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Shadow Elves I have a question which is very important for my campaign's version of WotI and PWA events, and I thought some of you might have some ideas that could help. (I disliked the way the Shadow Elf invasion was handled, and I'm trying to find a better way to do it.) The question is this: Do the Shadow Elves *enjoy* living on the surface, now that they've experienced it for a while? Further, would they have enjoyed it *more* if Alfheim had not been gnarled and black, but was still green and verdant? Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:04:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 DM wrote: >So, state your mind: are they clerics or not? Sorry, we seem to be arguing at cross-purposes and I was getting confused with what I was trying to say. All I was saying was that since D&D Elves do not ordinarily get to be clerics, I think AD&D Mystara will be different from the D&D version due to the increased number of Elven Clerics. >What does it mean: Alfheim >equivalent??? You see, the Tree Keepers are the OD&D elven clerics: you >cannot compare them with AD&D elven clerics, cause the 2 system are entirely >different on this subject! Not entirely different - Tree Keepers still fulfill the basic role of Elven Cleric in D&D. D&D and AD&D are not really that different at all, once all of the extra Gazetteer, Hollow World, etc. rules are in effect. I meant Treekeepers are the Alfheim equivalent of Shadow Elf Shamans. >Elf-clerics can worship only Ilsundal and >Mealiden if they wanna become clerics (at least that's what GAZ5 lets us >infer), Actually I never really got the impression that treekeepers "worshipped" Ilsundal or Mealiden, so much as being the spiritual leaders of their clans - not really worshippers, more... philosophers and mages. Or something. >but i suppose they can become also elf-cleric of Ordana, Terra, >Eyrindul or even Atzanteotl in the same way. That would be true anyway - there's nothing to say Atzanteotl can't provide his Elves with clerics (and clan relics for that matter). >And do not forget there are >other elven Keepers: the Frond Keeper for the Aquarendi (Tallivai-Calitha), >the Pearl Keeper for the Meditor (do not remember their Immortal, but i >suspect it's Protius), and these have the same spells of Tree Keepers. Exactly. >Of >course, if u want u can let the elves use the Shaman option as for other >humanoid, but that's not really how it was intended. And an inherently bad idea, as I was trying to point out - that's essentially what happens in AD&D. >C'mon, you know what i mean! The common Expert-Companion-Master set elf is >basically a warrior in comparison to the Keeper and the Elf-Mage, that's >what i wanted to say. Sorry, I misunderstood. Now I get what you were saying. We use the Appendix chart for Elves now anyway - I didn't like it at first but my brother managed to persuade me and now I think it's fine. >I am not comparing it to the AD&D elf: they're too >different! They're not that different in the end product, just in the rules that get you there. >>I know about all of these, but I was more interested in the Elven point >>of view in regards to clerics. The point is, in standard D&D elven >>clerics are unheard of, being restricted as you pointed out to special >>cases - Treekeepers and Shamans (Soul Crystal-keepers if you like to >>keep things in clan perspective). >Now, OK, this is better... But once you get the rules for the keepers and >the like, who forbids you to use 'em to make more elf-clerics (obviously >dedicated to Immortals associated with elves or nature. That's the main >difference between OD&D and AD&D Mystaran elves: the first ones are very >settled in their background -u will never see an elf-cleric of ODin!-, >whereas with AD&D rules who can say the player cannot have an elf-cleric of >Petra?... but maybe i'm wrong...) I suppose so. My main point was that AD&D is not as good for Mystara as D&D (surprise, surprise). I was kinda hoping that some AD&D players who had encountered this could say what they did. I'm just curious because I only play OD&D. >>However in AD&D Mystara any elf can be a cleric without any special >>circumstances beyond the standard requirements of the class. >Well, then maybe i wasn't that wrong with my Petra's elf-cleric hypothesis... No, you were right - that's what I was complaining about. >>Especially in light of the unofficial AC 1014 Almanac's Shadow Elf >>events (the raising of Aengmor, in part to de-power the shamans of >>Rafiel), such free distribution of clerics among the elves is not in >>form with the D&D version of the world. >>Thorfinn. > >Well, and so? The Shadow Elves are different and have a different culture >from the surface elves, that's it. They depended very much on Shamans, >that's why there will be many elf-clerics in the years to come, i don't see >anything bad about this (odd for the other races maybe, but not for Shadow >Elves or DMs who know their history) But in D&D there will NOT be many Shadow Elf clerics (you did mean Shadow Elf clerics, right?). Shamans cannot cast spells on the surface, and I see no reason to suddenly allow clerics of Rafiel on the surface, nor elven clerics of anyone else without special cases (like Treekeepers or Frondkeepers). Atzanteotl will certainly NOT be able to have Shadow Elf clerics without a damn good reason. Besides, I'm sure some of the fleeing Elves left their spellbooks in Alfheim. That means Shadow Elves now have widespread access to spells that were formerly considered "shamanic". There's a LOT of stuff to think about on this subject - this is just the tip of the iceberg. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:46:49 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >I play also AD&D, but all players are former OD&D players so our elf is a >fighter-mage, actually we've no clerics or priests in the group, only a druid. That's good. I wouldn't like to see AD&D Elf Clerics in Mystara. >>Could you send me a copy please? Thanks. >> >Of course. Thank you kindly. >>I agree. Elves get to be mages and fighters, but not clerics except in >>special cases. > >It would be important for the next unofficial almanacs that almost everyone >agrees on not introducing new classes for demihumans (and humans too, e.g. >psionics) otherwise there would be a split between the AD&D players and OD&D >players, not mentioning the ones that use different systems. >So I suggest that elves can be fighter-mages or Treekepers (or Shamans...), >dwarf can be fighter or fighter-cleric and halfling can be fighter or... >well, what's a Master in AD&D terms, fighter-druid ? I agree. Yeah, halfling masters would probably be druids. >If you stick to WotI you're right, but since that reasons didn't convince >many of us in my Timeline of the Alfheim invasion I used one of Herve's >twisted plots introducing Atzanteotl. Ironic considering your reasons didn't really convince me. :-) In any case, I'm trying to work out a slightly better (for my campaign) way to get the Shadow Elves to invade, preferably NOT involving them destroying the forest in the process. After all, one of the reasons they coveted it so much was because it was such a nice, living forest. >>Any thoughts? I feel quite strongly on this subject, and I'd love to >>discuss it with anyone who has any objections or questions. >> >I'll send you the Timeline than we'll discuss on it. Okay. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:48:33 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Why not just call the city Oenkmar? Because the Shadow Elves seem to have a nasty habit of calling it Aengmor, and hitting people who say differently. ;-) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:25:53 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) (fwd) On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: >MY> Well, I must to Introduce me, I'm a newbie.... I was born in >MY>Argentina, so I don't speak English very well (I think i speak it VERY >MY>BAD), I am playing OD&D since 15 years and realy love it (I hate AD$D), I >MY>like RuneQuest to... > >You speak English just fine. He writes it pretty well too. ;-) >MY> 1. X1 >MY> 2. Ylaruam Gaz >MY> 3. Ierendi Gaz > >Why does no one like X1? Got me. Over here in Scotland it's THE module everyone has played and has fond memories of. (Because it came with the Expert set.) Okay so it wasn't a work of art, but it was fun, especially as an introductory wilderness adventure. I can still remember the time I DM'ed it a few years ago to two of my cousins who'd not played it yet... they met the Tyrannosaurus Rex and it pasted them! They were really taken aback, since up till then they'd been killing everything in sight with ease. It actually managed to bite one of them clean in half before their NPC employer, who had been keeping an eye on their progress through a crystal ball, teleported in and finished it off. Ouch, that character must have a lot of scarring round his (re-attached) waist!!! :-) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:32:09 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Isnt atheist a rather strong term? an atheist denies the existence of the >divine (like the dwarves in Torg). Halflings IMHO just take very litle >interest in such matters. No hin would devote his life to an immortal. >They are buisy fixing their gardens, smoking tobacco, having lunch and >adventuring. As I said in a previous posting, atheism isn't really an option when there's so much evidence for Immortal existance. That's why there aren't very many "one true faiths" in Mystara. (Though there are a fair number, and they tend to make their presence known more than tolerant faiths do.) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:15:31 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >Probably the Glantrians aren't much interested in air magic and skyships. They also won't have many shipwrights among them, so any flying constructions might easily be a bit stranger. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:12:41 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 David Keyser wrote: > >> So, this actually deals with Blackmoor and not just a generic setting? >> Cool. >> > >The bottom of the message said April Fools, so the whole message is bogus. >As far as I know, no TSR 97 products have been released yet. What is the most recent issue of Dragon Magazine? I haven't had any since 136, and I have it reserved at the newsagent. So what's going on? I heard TSR wasn't doing too well of late. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:21:30 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 DM wrote: >PS: did Mealiden create 9 or 10 seedlings? Gee, this one i don't remember... >i'll look it up in my GAZ5 at home.. well, in case he created 10, there are >2 trees undiscovered, not just 1. He created 9. So it is just the one (presuming you are right about the Trueflower clan) that is left to assign. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #34 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #35 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, April 4 1997 Volume 02 : Number 035 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:46:26 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) (fwd) > MY> 1. X1 > MY> 2. Ylaruam Gaz > MY> 3. Ierendi Gaz > > Why does no one like X1? I liked it. Of course it was the only X series I ever bought, but we ran it and had a grand time... Had a wonderful "B" movie feel. Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:46:00 -0800 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem > From owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Thu Apr 3 18:36:33 1997 > From: Kaviyd@aol.com > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:10:30 -0500 (EST) > To: mystara-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem > Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com > Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com > Content-Length: 337 > > In a message dated 97-04-03 08:57:05 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne > Faanes) writes: > > << Why not just call the city Oenkmar? >> > > Because that is what those vile orcs called it! > > Actually, given the history of the city of Aengmor and the nation of Aengmor, > the Shadow Elves might take to calling their recovered city "Old Aengmor". > How about "Aengmor Classic"? Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:40:10 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >> BTW: about that Fireball example. >> Now that more Shadow Elves can freely go to Glantri and buy a Fireball >> spell, the power of the Shamans will decrease, won't it? > >Would they buy the fireball spell or would they avoid doing that in >respect of their shamans and out of fear of their immortal Rafiel. >The source of a Shaman/Clerics power/authoroty is IMO his Immortal In fact Elves on the surface world have a very nice ability to completely corrupt their spellbooks with "non-traditional" foreign spells. Shadow Elves can get Elf spells from stolen or lost spellbooks, and vice cersa, or even through an Elf companion (rare as that may be). All elves can get human spells from Glantri or (pre-WotI) Alphatia. This could have a really annoying effect on a campaign world where power is determined partially by what spells you can cast. It's a bit of a problematic issue. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:38:25 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >You are right. It wouldn't be right to call the city new Aengmor either, >since it is older than Alfheim/aengmor so the term Aengmor/Oenkmar would >be best as Fabrizio suggested. But geographically speaking two locations within once country/realm would not/should not have the same name. It causes confusion. Besides, I didn't say Oenkmar should be New Aengmor (since it's actually old Aengmor). That would be silly as you say. Alfheim would be known as New Aengmor. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 01:25:13 -0500 From: Chris Frisby Subject: [Mystara] Hello Im new to the list just thought i would say hello Friz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 10:22:18 +0000 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) At 13.07 03/04/97 EST, you wrote: >DM writes: >> >> Ok, in GAZ5, at the very end and at the beginning too, it is explained that >> when Mealiden fled the Sylvan Realm he created 9 seedlings from the Original >> Tree of Life with Ilsundal's intercession: these 9 seedlings were not >> dependent from the original Tree, they were not his daughters! So, there are >> 10 Trees of Life in Mystara: 1 is the Original in the Sylvan Realm, 6 are >> the Trees of the Alfheim Elves (the Feadiel's relic is a daughter of the >> original Tree, so it doesn't count) and another 1 is the Callarii's tree, >> and that makes 8 trees of life. There are 2 trees left: where are they? I >> think Clan Trueflower may have another one (they probably took the wrong >> exit in the Rainbow Highway and ended up in the Isle of Dawn, never to be >> seen again by the other clans), but there is still one missing... > > The Shiye have one too, as they departed from Mealiden's >migration... It leaves one unaccounted for... The original is dead, but >the Feadil took a duaghter of it... >J Duncan I do not think the Shyie have one tree of life, and i'm basing my assuumption on these 3 facts: 1. they worship Eyrindul, and as we all know, he isn't in very good terms with Ilsundal, so i don't see why they should also bring with them an AVATAR of that Immortal if it was Eyrindul that guided them to Alphatia (they probably have some other never detailed relic, as other elven clans have) 2. it is nowhere stated that Mealiden created ONE SEEDLING FOR EACH CLAN that left the Sylvan Realm: so my hypothesis is that Shiye had no Tree from the beginning, probably because they were part of another major clan (one of those who inhabited Alfheim or the Callarii) 3. there's a net short story about Shiye elves written by Herve Musseauh IIRC, in which it is portrayed the reaction of the Shiye living in Norwold when an Alfheim Tree Keeper arrives in their community and creates a Tree of Life, and from what it's written here it results obvious that Shiye have never seen a real Tree of Life (Ok, maybe their ancestors knew about the one in the Sylvan Realm, but since they now worship Eyrindul, it is obvious that they have forgotten about the old Relic)! Yes, maybe it is an unofficial thing, but i like it and it suits my idea of the Shiye and their relationship with other elves and the Tree of Life... So there is still 1 tree (there were 10, if we count the Original Tree Ilsundal created) left unaccounted? Who has it? Who nurtures it and why?.... Call 555-Mulder for further investigations... PS: who said the Original Tree is dead? Have u played out CM7? If u played it correctly, at the end the Tree could have been saved as well as the whole Sylvan Realm (and this could be another possibility for the Alfheim elves: they could return there instead of retaking Alfheim, thus leaving a gap of thousands of miles between them and those shadowelves... maybe it's time to dig out your copy of CM7 and let it play it in 1015 by some intrepid Feadiel elves? That could be a great feat for that clan..) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 10:40:18 +0000 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: [Mystara] Re: Tale of the Comet and TSR status At 11.53 03/04/97 -0800, you wrote: > >> So, this actually deals with Blackmoor and not just a generic setting? >> Cool. >> > >The bottom of the message said April Fools, so the whole message is bogus. >As far as I know, no TSR 97 products have been released yet. > >Dave Keyser A+! You got it! Eh Eh... Anyway, regarding TSR status, their homepage has the following line written in BIG FONTS: WE ARE NOT GOING BANKRUPTCY! WE HAVE ONLY HAD PROBLEMS WITH OUR PRINTER... blah blah blah If u want my opinion, this is the biggest April Fool's ever! No less than 4 shopkeepers have told me they have received anything from TSR since November, and they think it's going to plunge into the Abyss of the Dead Inc because they've been ruined by their ccg (Spellfire and Blood Wars -rumors say there are tons of these cards stored in a secret base in the desert, just near Area 51.. and even the aliens refuse to play with them!)... Anyway, the alarming fact is that they're now receiving material from the English branch of TSR and not thing form USA, and considering also the dropped prices of some of these items, there is smell of bankruptcy... This time it's no April Fool's by me: i'm telling you what the shopkeepers said me: i truly hope this is not the case, but i think that if they're going out of business, they should at least put out what they have programmed for this year (this would give them a little more of honor). Let's hope this is only a printer problem (but 5 months without printer... well, is it a nuclear printer that is so difficult to repair?), but take also into account the fact that they fired many people during the Xmas holidays... DM (a bit worried and despaired) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 10:55:12 +0000 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 04.04 04/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 DM wrote: >>So, state your mind: are they clerics or not? > >Sorry, we seem to be arguing at cross-purposes and I was getting >confused with what I was trying to say. > >All I was saying was that since D&D Elves do not ordinarily get to be >clerics, I think AD&D Mystara will be different from the D&D version due >to the increased number of Elven Clerics. Now i understand and i do agree with your point... AD&D Mystara will be a very different Mystara... and probably not good as it was for OD&D, since AD&D has already "stronger" worlds such as Toril and Greyhawk... >>Now, OK, this is better... But once you get the rules for the keepers and >>the like, who forbids you to use 'em to make more elf-clerics (obviously >>dedicated to Immortals associated with elves or nature. That's the main >>difference between OD&D and AD&D Mystaran elves: the first ones are very >>settled in their background -u will never see an elf-cleric of ODin!-, >>whereas with AD&D rules who can say the player cannot have an elf-cleric of >>Petra?... but maybe i'm wrong...) > >I suppose so. My main point was that AD&D is not as good for Mystara as >D&D (surprise, surprise). I was kinda hoping that some AD&D players who >had encountered this could say what they did. I'm just curious because >I only play OD&D. > >>>However in AD&D Mystara any elf can be a cleric without any special >>>circumstances beyond the standard requirements of the class. >>Well, then maybe i wasn't that wrong with my Petra's elf-cleric hypothesis... > >No, you were right - that's what I was complaining about. So, we are both complaining about the same thing... and the curious fact is that neither of us actually uses AD&D rules... bit strange ain't it? I think an elf-cleric of Petra or ODin is much stranger than our behaviour (almost a heresy!) :) >But in D&D there will NOT be many Shadow Elf clerics (you did mean >Shadow Elf clerics, right?). Shamans cannot cast spells on the surface, >and I see no reason to suddenly allow clerics of Rafiel on the surface, >nor elven clerics of anyone else without special cases (like Treekeepers >or Frondkeepers). Atzanteotl will certainly NOT be able to have Shadow >Elf clerics without a damn good reason. > >Besides, I'm sure some of the fleeing Elves left their spellbooks in >Alfheim. That means Shadow Elves now have widespread access to spells >that were formerly considered "shamanic". > >There's a LOT of stuff to think about on this subject - this is just the >tip of the iceberg. > >Thorfinn. Well, i see it this way: maybe, but just maybe, as long as the shadow elves lived in Aengmor, the old underground caverns where the City of Stars lies, they were a bit influences by the Spell of Preservation. The changes could occur, but were really few in comparison to the surface world nations and races, and much more in comparison to the HW nations (also consider that elves are a very traditional culture, very attached to their traditions i mean). When they went out and conquered Alfheim and Aengmor, then things started to happen a bit too fast for them, and Atzanteotl's influence finally resulted in what we've seen: corruption of the Aengmor/Oenkmar elves and destruction of the Rafiel cult in Alfheim/New Aengmor (i like the idea of Alfheim as New Aengmor... also never thought about Svartalfheim? It was the old norse-germanic name for the Realm of Shadowelves, as opposed to Alfheim , the Realm of the High Elves... of course it would have a negative connotations to the people of the Northern Reaches...). So i think this is only the natural process of evolution: when a culture meets other cultures, there cannot be doubts: the stronger ones will influence the weaker one, and that's what will happen (you're right, normal shadowelves will learn shaman spells such as fireball and begin to doubt about the real power of the Shamans, but this will happen only in the Outer World, not inside the City of Stars) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:33:11 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) (fwd) Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: > >MY> Well, I must to Introduce me, I'm a newbie.... I was born in > >MY>Argentina, so I don't speak English very well (I think i speak it VERY > >MY>BAD), I am playing OD&D since 15 years and realy love it (I hate AD$D), I > >MY>like RuneQuest to... > > > >You speak English just fine. > > He writes it pretty well too. ;-) > > >MY> 1. X1 > >MY> 2. Ylaruam Gaz > >MY> 3. Ierendi Gaz > > > >Why does no one like X1? > > Got me. Over here in Scotland it's THE module everyone has played and > has fond memories of. (Because it came with the Expert set.) Okay so > it wasn't a work of art, but it was fun, especially as an introductory > wilderness adventure. > > I can still remember the time I DM'ed it a few years ago to two of my > cousins who'd not played it yet... they met the Tyrannosaurus Rex and it > pasted them! They were really taken aback, since up till then they'd > been killing everything in sight with ease. It actually managed to bite > one of them clean in half before their NPC employer, who had been > keeping an eye on their progress through a crystal ball, teleported in > and finished it off. > > Ouch, that character must have a lot of scarring round his (re-attached) > waist!!! :-) > > Thorfinn. > > ===================================================================== > "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he > himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most > beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned > beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion > Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk > ===================================================================== I have played as a DM X1 for thousand of times and every time I play it differently.I think it is great.The last time the characters were looking for a nest of a dragon,they killed the Zombie Master ,who turned out to be a Lich,they were killed by a Rex,two of them became Zombies and the story still goes on... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:04:32 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 15.17 03/04/97 +0200, you wrote: >On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >> BTW: about that Fireball example. >> Now that more Shadow Elves can freely go to Glantri and buy a Fireball >> spell, the power of the Shamans will decrease, won't it? > >Would they buy the fireball spell or would they avoid doing that in >respect of their shamans and out of fear of their immortal Rafiel. >The source of a Shaman/Clerics power/authoroty is IMO his Immortal > Probably they would avoid to use it in front of Shamans for fear of being punished or marked as heretics, but they would have no problems in using it on the surface or in a matter of life and death. Just my opinion. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:04:42 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem At 15.54 03/04/97 +0200, you wrote: >Why not just call the city Oenkmar? For the same reason New York is not called New Amsterdam :) Because the new conquerors, the Shadow Elves, renamed it Aengmor. The city was built by Atruazin and his companions in 1468 BC and named Mictlan, then it was conquered by Shadow Elves in 1420 BC and renamed Aengmor. In 1290 BC the city was surrounded by lava and sunk into the earth. In 1190 BC the 'noids found the city and renamed it Oenkmar, in 500 BC the city sunk again into the earth. What happened next is common knowledge. So, if we want to call the city by it's orinal name, we should call it Mictlan, but since now it's owned by Shadow Elves I find that Aengmor is the right name. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:00:05 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Halfling Clerics On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, DM wrote: > At 19.53 02/04/97 EST, you wrote: > > > > > >>IMO there aren't halfling immortals, because the halfling are atheist, > >>anyway I may be wrong. > >> > >Is this something in Gaz 8? I didn't know they were atheist. What about > >the halfling Immortal Usamigaras? > > > >NB > > I have Gaz8, and i can state for sure that the Hin of the Shires follow > these 3 Immortals, the High Heroes: Nob Nar, Coberham and Brindorhin, who > are the ones who give hin Masters their spells and powers. As for Usamigras, > the hin don't know him, and i think he's followers only in Cynidicea. > Does anyone know where on Mystara is Cynidicea? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:18:47 -0600 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D To fit the mark of amber adventure in my campiagn I am doing the following. I played it originally when the characters were in alphatia. All the NPC's used the Amber name. Accoording to my campaign, Etienne needed t be freed of his prison but did not want any Glantrians to know of his predicament, hence, get a bunch of alphatian heroes to help him without their knowing whom they were helping. Since it was then necessarry to have Etienne in Glantri way before that I simply assumed that the whole castle amber with its occupant were returned to Glantri by Etienne at the moment he deemed correct (thus, mantaining the original Glantri timeline). From that moment onward my characters had no more contact with Etienne, and several years passed (both in game time and in real time). The characters met an immortal name Rad at the end of WOI but were unable to place him as an Ambar (after all, Amber and Ambreville sound differently). Since they were not to bright on that encounter, Alphatia was destroyed (remember my heroes are from Alphatia) and they put the blame on Rad, which was sucked up by the radiance. Now, in about 4 years game time (6 months real time) they are about to be found as described in the first part of mark of amber. I do not know if they will take the hook easily since they do not care about Rad and they know the name of Etienne D' Ambreville, but if they do, when they arrive at the chateou and see the map they will go crazy: they keep acurate maps of all their adventures, will note the similarities and start understanding that Amber was really Rad. Things will get pretty interesting at this point! - -- "I'm caught in a dream And my dream's come true." I was born to love you. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:57:13 -0500 (EST) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Tale of the Comet and TSR status There are a lot of rumors flying around about TSR's bankruptcy, but don't believe most of them. Nobody fully knows whats going on because TSR is (as always) extremely tight-lipped about their financial status. But the best chant from America Online (where TSR has its strongest net-presence) is that TSR is having problems with their printers (not the machines, the companies), a bit of a cash flow problem (having nothing to do with CCG's), and is undergoing a corporate restructuring. There have been no new TSR products since November '96 (including magazines), the Winter Fest Con was canceled, and over 20 people have been layed off. But . . . TSR is not undergoing bankruptcy, and we should start seeing new products by the end of April. TSR is definitely having major problems, and the rumors fly fierce, but no Chapter 11 for our favorite company. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 97 12:08:46 EST From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it writes: > >> and that makes 8 trees of life. There are 2 trees left: where are they? I > >> think Clan Trueflower may have another one (they probably took the wrong > >> exit in the Rainbow Highway and ended up in the Isle of Dawn, never to be > >> seen again by the other clans), but there is still one missing... > > > > The Shiye have one too, as they departed from Mealiden's > >migration... It leaves one unaccounted for... The original is dead, but > >the Feadil took a duaghter of it... > >J Duncan > > I do not think the Shyie have one tree of life, and i'm basing my > assuumption on these 3 facts: > 1. they worship Eyrindul, and as we all know, he isn't in very good terms > with Ilsundal, so i don't see why they should also bring with them an AVATAR > of that Immortal if it was Eyrindul that guided them to Alphatia (they > probably have some other never detailed relic, as other elven clans have) Maybe gaining a Tree of Life was one of the reasons that Eyrindul lured the Shyie away... I don't think the animosity between the two elven deities extends to such an extent that one would deny support to any elves because they primarily follow the other, I highly doubt that the elven immortals are that petty. > 2. it is nowhere stated that Mealiden created ONE SEEDLING FOR EACH CLAN > that left the Sylvan Realm: so my hypothesis is that Shiye had no Tree from > the beginning, probably because they were part of another major clan (one of > those who inhabited Alfheim or the Callarii) You're right. It's not specifically stated. However, it is implied. Each clan in the alfheim gaz has one ToL. The newly arriving Feadil clan has a ToL. The precedence is that each clan has it's own ToL, and each clan has it's own TreeKeepers too (iirc). This is the only information we have to go on. The logical assumption from this that each clan has it's own ToL is the assumption with the least deviation from the canon material. Besides, the numbers just *feel* right. Mealiden leaves the Sylvan realm with 9 trees, 2 clans seperate, 6 settle in Alfheim. Alfheim has 6 trees from those 6 clans. Hrm. The Feadil clan comes from the Sylvan realm. They have their own Tree. It all seems rather simple to me. The only thing left to decide is, what happened to the 9th clan? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 97 12:12:28 EST From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Tale of the Comet and TSR status BZuber5988@aol.com writes: > products by the end of April. TSR is definitely having major problems, and > the rumors fly fierce, but no Chapter 11 for our favorite company. It's a curse. Bargle didn't like the fact that they decided to end his universe and took it out on them. Hehehehehehehehehe... what do they call it, Poetic Justice? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:21:35 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins {S Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, DM wrote: SPOILER WARNING : Patrick, this might have effects on Rykszard, so stop reading it, please. Or, at least, forget what you read bellow :) > >I don't have X11, so what I say might not fit into that module, but, while > >reading the posts about it, an idea has occured to me. What if those > >happenings are somewhat related with the appearance of Synn. Now that you > >mention there is an evil church associated with dragons, I believe such > >association is even more likely. Nobody knows where Synn comes from, but > >she could be associated (maybe a pawn, that would be scary) of whomever is > >in power as Shadow Lord. > > > > Well, that is definitely a good solution, i didn't remember about Synn (how > could have i been so numb!) There is only 1 main problem with this theory: > according to Haldemar's chronicles, Synn originally appeared in Cestia, > where she was the ruler of the Night Dragons that dwelt there, and she has > only recently come to the Known World, so it seems not probable that she is > the being venerated by the Idris' priests, for this cult is veery ancient > (it was Nebunar, the first Essurian King, the first important follower of > this sect, and this places the faith's roots back in AC 500, and i don't > think Synn was ever on this plane at that time.. but then, maybe i'm mistaking). > For this reason, i think it is more probable that the actual Immortal > followed by Idris' priests is Demogorgon, the Lizard King, but if you can > actually deny my previous arguments i would be most glad, cause i really > liked your idea of Synn being under the Idris' cult...;) Sorry for taking so long. I intended to answer you, but I just lost your email in a pile of others. I do have a solution for this problem. As someone mentioned, Synn was originally in Cestia and nobody knows for how long. It could be she is there for a small time. What if Synn was banished of entering the Prime or, maybe, physically confined to Cestia? She could have used the Idris cult to free herself from these predicament, either by opening a gate to her plane or convincing a party of her followers to go to Cestia and free her. That she has very strong mental powers is obvious from the way she has controlled Jaggar. I would even qualify her as an exalted being. What do you think? Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:55:21 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathan Devaprasad <96devapr@scar.utoronto.ca> Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Enrique Pacheco wrote: > To fit the mark of amber adventure in my campiagn I am doing the > following. > I played it originally when the characters were in alphatia. All the > NPC's used the Amber name. Accoording to my campaign, Etienne needed t > be freed of his prison but did not want any Glantrians to know of his > predicament, hence, get a bunch of alphatian heroes to help him without > their knowing whom they were helping. Since it was then necessarry to > have Etienne in Glantri way before that I simply assumed that the whole > castle amber with its occupant were returned to Glantri by Etienne at > the moment he deemed correct (thus, mantaining the original Glantri > timeline). From that moment onward my characters had no more contact > with Etienne, and several years passed (both in game time and in real > time). The characters met an immortal name Rad at the end of WOI but > were unable to place him as an Ambar (after all, Amber and Ambreville > sound differently). Since they were not to bright on that encounter, > Alphatia was destroyed (remember my heroes are from Alphatia) and they > put the blame on Rad, which was sucked up by the radiance. > Now, in about 4 years game time (6 months real time) they are about to > be found as described in the first part of mark of amber. I do not know > if they will take the hook easily since they do not care about Rad and > they know the name of Etienne D' Ambreville, but if they do, when they > arrive at the chateou and see the map they will go crazy: they keep > acurate maps of all their adventures, will note the similarities and > start understanding that Amber was really Rad. Things will get pretty > interesting at this point! > -- Hmm, I guess I should take a look at mark of amber, I hav not seen it yet. But you say mark of Amber is set on after WOI, or did you choose to do that. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 13:07:51 EST From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) >> I do not think the Shyie have one tree of life, and i'm basing my >> assuumption on these 3 facts: >> 1. they worship Eyrindul, and as we all know, he isn't in very good terms >> with Ilsundal, so i don't see why they should also bring with them an AVATAR >> of that Immortal if it was Eyrindul that guided them to Alphatia (they >> probably have some other never detailed relic, as other elven clanshave) > > Maybe gaining a Tree of Life was one of the reasons that Eyrindul >lured the Shyie away... I don't think the animosity between the two elven >deities extends to such an extent that one would deny support to any elves >because they primarily follow the other, I highly doubt that the elven immortals are that petty. > And, of note, in CM1, Test of the Warlords (the closest thing to a Norwold gazeteer) it is stated that each of the foresthomes there have a tree of life, presumably saplings from the Shiye original (as they are of course, migrants from Alphatia) NB ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 21:44:24 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? >In fact Elves on the surface world have a very nice ability to >completely corrupt their spellbooks with "non-traditional" foreign >spells. > >Shadow Elves can get Elf spells from stolen or lost spellbooks, and vice >cersa, or even through an Elf companion (rare as that may be). All >elves can get human spells from Glantri or (pre-WotI) Alphatia. This >could have a really annoying effect on a campaign world where power is >determined partially by what spells you can cast. And all humans can get elf (and shadow elf) spells... ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: 04 Apr 1997 19:59:27 GMT From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] Re: Tale of the Comet and TSR status To address the story of the 'printer problems' and 'financial troubles' said to be going on at TSR, they are both true, and connected. TSR unwisely decided to restructure its finances at the same time it was switching printers. The new printer would not print without a prior check, which was causing problems since TSR was restructuring its financial situation. In addition, TSR severed its ties with Random House, but joined with some other company, whose name I cannot remember. That was the last official word from TSR. Andrew McKinstry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:37:21 -0800 (PST) From: Diego Subject: [Mystara] Hi Hi, This is Diego And I have recently joined the list. Well I guess that is all for the moment. -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:43:19 -0800 (PST) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timeline I woyuld like to get the DB as well if someone could post it it would be great. I have played OD&D for 10 years, but not as much in the past 2 years and I am a bit our of touch. One question is the new/old Mystara box set for AD&D a good buy and the same for the other box sets? I aready have the Gazetteers. -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:00:42 -0800 (PST) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) (fwd) On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: > > > Why does no one like X1? > > > > Necromancer > > I do! > well, its not particularily good, but its the first module I played. > Its a classic people > > Haavard R. Faanes I to liked X1 infact I ran it for all last quarter as the setting for a campaign that met once a week for about 4hrs at a time. It was good as a exploration campaign for all of the novices in my group and a chance to show novices the wilderness. -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:33:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield [strawberryJAMM]" Subject: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals Hello Mystarans, I have a question for general discussion: Do you think that a Faery using their inborn "invisibility to mortals" can be detected by the use of a normal "detect invisibility" spell? If so, why? If not, why not? - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <=-=> strawberry@jamm.com strawberryJAMM Designs <=-=> http://www.jamm.com/ Personal Home Page <=-=> http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:05:04 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] TOP3 & WORST3 (updated) (fwd) > > > >Why does no one like X1? > > > I can still remember the time I DM'ed it a few years ago to two of my > cousins who'd not played it yet... they met the Tyrannosaurus Rex and it > pasted them! They were really taken aback, since up till then they'd All of us, who have DM'ed this module has [or had?] make the impossible to send the PC directly to the T-Rex.... - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:49:15 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again > > On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > > IIRC I proposed the relocation of the Fairy Court there in my Timeline of > > the Alfheim Invasion. > > Great minds think alike, eh? ;) > > I don't recall your mention of that, but I don't think that's where I got > the idea, really. I think it was independently arrived at; which makes it > all the more reasonable, IMO, for it to be thus. :) > > Besides, PC1 mentions Faylinn might be on the IoD. I think it's a good idea. > - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 12:35:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Doh! Didn't expect an april fool message on this board, and since it > mentioned april fool on the bottom, I thought it wouldn't be one. Oh, > well, no one ever accused me of being very smart. You... you... genius, you! So smug with your intellect! Using big words like... 'mentioned' and 'accused'. Now you can't say you've never been accused of being smart. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:27:51 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [Mystara] Classes With the recent talks on classes, I just like to put forth couple of problems I always had with D&D classes. First, why doesn't halfling have thief skills? In a standard fantasy game setting, which Mystara can be consider as one, halfling should be pretty good at thiefing. And consider that they are somewhat underpowered compare to other classes, I don't think giving them thief ability will disrupt the balance too much. Second is the human can advance higher than demi-human. Consider the longer life span, history, and natural ability of demi-human when compares to human. It seems to be that it would be more reasonable that demi-human should able to advance farther than human in certain specific class, while human can be more diversered. Such as that elf should have the most powerful wizards, dwarf have the mightest warriors, and halfling have the best thiefs. While human are moderately good at most classes and can combine skills from different classes better. But that would require a fundamental change to the game and probably will be too disruptive to the game. But has anyone make changes such as that? If so, could you share your thought with me. Thanks. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 06:15:25 -0600 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D It is set in 1012. - -- "I'm caught in a dream And my dream's come true." I was born to love you. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:03:06 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem Something has occurred to me -- one of the two Aengmors is a city, while the other is an entire nation. If we regard the city as being part of the country, then there is no confusion as long as it is clear whether you are talking about a city or a country -- it is no worse than "New York, New York". ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #35 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #36 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, April 5 1997 Volume 02 : Number 036 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:03:13 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) In a message dated 97-04-04 04:44:36 EST, dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it writes: << PS: who said the Original Tree is dead? Have u played out CM7? If u played it correctly, at the end the Tree could have been saved as well as the whole Sylvan Realm (and this could be another possibility for the Alfheim elves: they could return there instead of retaking Alfheim, thus leaving a gap of thousands of miles between them and those shadowelves... maybe it's time to dig out your copy of CM7 and let it play it in 1015 by some intrepid Feadiel elves? That could be a great feat for that clan..) >> Given that CM 7 starts out in Alfheim, it might be better to run that adventure before the Shadow Elves conquer Alfheim. Then, when things start going bad in Alfheim, the Elves have three rather than two places to go. However, given the difficulties of using that Rainbow Bridge, most of the Elves are unable to use it and go to Karameikos or Wendar. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 20:37:58 -0500 From: Chris Frisby Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Webpage? Is there a Mystara Webpage if so what is the sight thanks Friz ************************************************ * If you see this person get away from him and * * contact your local authorities immediately * ************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:05:07 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Halfling Clerics In a message dated 97-04-04 08:04:16 EST, k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi (Aleksej Andrievskij) writes: << Does anyone know where on Mystara is Cynidicea? >> According to B1-9, it may be in a really deserted part of Ylaruam. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:05:26 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? In a message dated 97-04-04 17:25:21 EST, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << And all humans can get elf (and shadow elf) spells... >> Not according to the gazetteers, although going by them I would have restricted Elves in terms of which spells they could learn. Allowing Elves to cast any Human or Elf spell while wearing armor -- and eventually to learn spells of up to 9th level -- is just too much. P.S. -- A mere nitpick, but most humans cannot cast spells at all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:05:31 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Classes In a message dated 97-04-04 19:15:37 EST, scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu (Shin Chyang Yu) writes: << First, why doesn't halfling have thief skills? In a standard fantasy game setting, which Mystara can be consider as one, halfling should be pretty good at thiefing. >> Given the information in various gazetteers, it would probably be a good idea to allow Halflings to learn thieving skills as "general" skills. Also, given their racial skill, a case could be made for arguing that they should be granted "Hide in Shadows" and "Move Silently" as "bonus" skills. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:05:44 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals In a message dated 97-04-04 19:14:53 EST, jam@jamm.com (Jenni A. M. Merrifield [strawberryJAMM]) writes: << Do you think that a Faery using their inborn "invisibility to mortals" can be detected by the use of a normal "detect invisibility" spell? If so, why? If not, why not? >> Yes. They are invisible, so Detect Invisible should detect them. Also, Second Sight will detect invisible fairies but not invisible mortal wizards, so it would seem that "invisibility to mortals" is a slightly weaker power than standard "invisibility" in terms of its effects. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 23:00:04 -0500 From: Chris Frisby Subject: [Mystara] Avatars Is there anywhere i can find info on avatars for certian immortals such as Diamond and The Great One ect... Friz ************************************************ * If you see this person get away from him and * * contact your local authorities immediately * ************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 20:47:53 -0800 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Classes Hey Mystarans, John wrote: >[...] Second is the human can advance higher >than demi-human. Consider the longer life span, history, >and natural ability of demi-human when compares to human. >It seems to be that it would be more reasonable that >demi-human should able to advance farther than human in >certain specific class, while human can be more diversered. >Such as that elf should have the most powerful wizards, >dwarf have the mightest warriors, and halfling have the >best thiefs. While human are moderately good at most >classes and can combine skills from different classes >better. But that would require a fundamental change to the >game and probably will be too disruptive to the game. But >has anyone make changes such as that? If so, could you >share your thought with me. Thanks. Not that I expect my players to get to high levels in the campaign I'm running now, but I've eliminated the cap on levels for demihumans. I believe that the reason is not a within-game-world logical one, but one intended to preserve balance precisely because demihumans live longer, and more so because they already have so many perks such that it would become very undesirable to play a human otherwise. My solution to the balance problem instead of the level ceiling has been to match the bonus abilities, etc. that the demihumans have with coherent, interesting disadvantages or disabilities. Also, they don't get those superhero saving throws the way I run things. I haven't worked this out for dwarves and halflings because I've done it on the fly, but here are some examples for elves--note that I am NOT suggesting that the following is canon regarding elves, but is just the way I do it in MY campaign. Elves have keen hearing and eyesight which allow them to more easily find secret doors and, depending on your system and campaign, hear noises better, and see things clearly at a greater range. On the flip side, IMC, they have a penalty to saves vs. blinding lights (e.g. light spell) and deafening sounds (e.g. horn of blasting or a Traldar vocal's shout) since those senses are so sensitive. Elves have great longetivity, but this is, IMC, partly due to a different type of biology which, in modern scientific terms, we might say has a "slower metabolism". The true biological reason is immaterial--it's a game--but that should give you the general idea. As a result, they have a penalty to constitution (as done in AD&D), and have a slower rate of natural healing than humans. Furthermore, IMC regeneration effects (e.g. rings of regeneration) work by speeding up the body's natural healing process, so that the benefit of a regeneration spell effect on an elf is much reduced compared to for humans. Similarly, I have haste type effects (Haste spell, potion of speed) have minimal effects on elves because I have those spells boost natural systems which are not as responsive in the case of elves just as with regeneration. Elves are inherently magical beings. Unlike humans, ALL elves are born capable of using magic, although there are individual differences in ability and training is necessary in most cases. Elves have some bonuses when it comes to spellcasting IMC. On the flip side, however, elves glow with a Detect Magic spell (trouble if you're trying to pass as a non-elf), take actual damage (in addition to normal effects) from a Dispel Magic spell, and take severe damage each round in addition to being stunned when in an Anti-Magic area (e.g. Beholder's gaze, Immortal's aura). If you use the Master's rules (i.e. it's not in the Cyclopedia) which allow for a Touch Dispel version of Dispel Magic, you can imagine how nasty THAT would be to elves. In this manner, I try to allow for interesting differences between humans and demihumans, but ones that balance out "magically realistically" (a la magical realism, I mean) without the need for arbitrary game mechanic lobotomies like level limits. It also helps to enforce or reinforce lifestyle differences. For example, the world isn't brimming with superheroesque elves largely because elves are not as ambitious as humans, and even adventuring elves take long (decades) breaks between bouts of adventuring to return to the forest, be one with nature, reflect on their experience, and take it easy as is their natural inclination. I seem to recall GAZ5 saying some stuff along these lines. Making sure PC elves either reflect that mindset to some degree and act accordingly, or that they have compelling reasons to act and believe otherwise, *with appropriate negative repercussions regarding how they are viewed and dealt with in elven society*, can't hurt either. Toodles, /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Web: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ ~| Amateur conguero; Q(O+H)Q(G+W)AEEEBGKUS Mystaran; P75 on Ethernet |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:39:38 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hello I noticed that we seem to have several new additions to the list, so I would like to welcome everyone! Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:08:04 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] next almanac: Taverns and Rahasia > > This last wine in particular sounds Glantrian. Even if this module > > occurs in Karameikos, as presented in B1-9, they could have imported > > Glantrian wine. > > Likely. Keep in mind timelines, though. The earliest that particular wine > (presuming it is Averoigne) could have appeared is c. 728 (I think, > memory faulty) AC, when the French founded New Averoigne. I don't recall > offhand, but wasn't Elias a wizard of old times, dying many hundreds of > years prior to the events in B7? You're right. There is no reference that I could find to the exact time of Elya's death, but keep in mind that he came to the area after the elves were already well-established and he lived there for several elven generations, so it may have only been 250 years ago or so. The wine doesn't necessarily need to come from Nouvelle Averoigne; "champagne" could have been the latest rage in 735 in Glantri, and every winery made their own version. > > However, I believe that Rahasia is best set in Erewan of Glantri. > > After all, it doesn't really fit where B1-9 locates it (off the Duke's > > Road smewhere between Kelvin and the Darokin border), for there are no > > elven communities mentioned in this area in GAZ1 or K:KofA. > > Hmm. I don't know. The mood is distinctly Arabic in feel- Rahasia, an elf > named Hasan, a fighter named Baik Telor, and the evil cleric the Rahib. I > think it would definitely need to be located somewhere near Ylaruam, or > Sind perhaps, in order to get that Arabic influence (hence, I think, one > of the main reasons they located it in Karameikos). I think about 98% of this decision was based on the fact that the rest of B1-9 (with the exeption of Cynidicea) was located within Karameikos. But your point is well taken regarding culture, making it somewhat difficult to fit Rahasia anywhere into Mystara. > I thought B1-9 located it in the (Radlebb?) woods on the western side of > the duke's road, where the Canolbarth elves live? The village is located somewhere just off the Duke's Road on the way from Threshold to Selenica. The Callarii elves live Southeast of Kelvin, but this seems like a bit of a stretch to me. IIRC, there are no particular elven communities mentiones within the Radlebb, but rather in the Dymrak. But you do have an excellent point. It just might not work at all. > Depends on whether you use OD&D or AD&D, I suppose; no elf-clerics in > OD&D, so a temple with no clerics isn't too hard to imagine. And the > principal villain changes from the Rahib to those three witch sisters- > but the point is still well taken (and perhaps even more influenced by > that fact; witch sisters in Glantri? Probably a dime a dozen. ;) > > Still, one would have to admire the Rahib's kahongas for operating openly > in a place which detests clerical practices... :) > > > I think we should use the wine in the tavern tour at any rate. > > Sounds like a plan to me. Wonder what Averoigne vineyard the Champagne du > le Stomp is from? Particularly since it couldn't be called a champagne, > really... it's a sparkling wine. ;) Like I said before, it might not necessarily be in N.A. But then again it might:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:11:43 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Classes, halfling thieves First of all, in case people don't want to read my long ideas at the bottom, I just want to say something. There are halfling thieves in OD&D, they have race and class separate just like humans (actually you could separate all races and classes, face it this is one AD&D rule that's worth using with OD&D.) In the Thunder Rift supplement there is a halfling like this. I know some people don't like Thunder Rift, but it's OD&D, and so for people who consider the books to be "rules" then there is your justification. (actually in the back of the RC it says any race can be any class, but just recommends it's better not.) Rather than saying/thinking "Are there halfling thieves in OD&D, or are there (enter "rule" here) in (enter system here,) why not say "Do we want this in OD&D/this world, do we want to use this part of this system, could it work etc.?" At 06:27 PM 4/4/97 -0500, you wrote: >With the recent talks on classes, I just like to put forth >couple of problems I always had with D&D classes. First, >why doesn't halfling have thief skills? In a standard >fantasy game setting, which Mystara can be consider as one, >halfling should be pretty good at thiefing. And consider >that they are somewhat underpowered compare to other classes, >I don't think giving them thief ability will disrupt the >balance too much. Second is the human can advance higher >than demi-human. Consider the longer life span, history, >and natural ability of demi-human when compares to human. >It seems to be that it would be more reasonable that >demi-human should able to advance farther than human in >certain specific class, while human can be more diversered. >Such as that elf should have the most powerful wizards, >dwarf have the mightest warriors, and halfling have the >best thiefs. While human are moderately good at most >classes and can combine skills from different classes >better. But that would require a fundamental change to the >game and probably will be too disruptive to the game. But >has anyone make changes such as that? If so, could you >share your thought with me. Thanks. > IMO if one stuck to the guidelines as if they were rules, then it would affect the game. Actually I don't think it would change the game much, but the world. Demihumans would have greater civilizations and more influence. I really like this type of world, because it's fantasy, and I do my own world that way. Humans and certain demihumans have similar learning capacities. The way I do it is if they try to learn and advance more in a class, they can do it (within reason of course, no "40th lvl." crap!) I mean, give me a break. I don't get what the big deal is with this "rule" that some people seem to treat as a mantra, or a whole philosphy: "demihumans live longer, so they can't advance as far to keep game balance." Logically and realistically it would be just the opposite. So maybe this would affect world balance (and any decent DM can think up solutions to avoid this,) but would it truly affect game balance and the campaign? I think not. Campaigns generally don't last for hundreds of years of game time with the same character. In the campaigns I've played, humans just become more powerful than demihumans, and it's the humans who have an unfair advantage. When you're dealing with high levels, demihumans' so-called advantages like infravision don't really make them significantly better than the human characters. Anyway, if a campaign actually lasted for centuries, a DM can ask a player to retire any character that's too high of a level for the campaign. If someone actually played that much, it's likely the DM would become experienced enough to DM with high-level characters. Heck, I bet it would be easier than DMing immortals! So I don't think it'd be too disruptive. If high-level multiclassed/dualclassed (or whatever) demihumans are munchkin, then what the heck are *humans* who can achieve this much *faster*? I lean towards having my systems more knowledge/skill based. Even so, I agree that certain races would often be better in certain classes. Even though they could maybe be just as good in other classes, it seems to be a sort of tradition for those races, (and we know how much demihumans like those!) Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry if this seemed like another "rules" are guidelines rant, but in every "rulebook" I've seen that's what it says, and I'm an extremist and I just got going. I hope this helps though. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:46:05 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Alfheim Question Hi To my great sorrow, I still don't have the Alfheim Gazetteer, so I have question: What clan was dominant in the Southern or Southwestern portions of Alfheim? Perhaps around the area of Shieldtree? I really appreciate your help with this. Thanks Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:43:51 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Tavern Tour > This Glantri tour is a great idea, but maybe we should expand it, into a > guide to the taverns and foods of all countries. Maybe a lot of detail for > Glantri would be nice, > but *everywhere* adventurers go, it's nice to know about the local taverns, > food, & drink. But if you have campaign for a long time in one area, maybe > not. So, we could focus on Glantri now and do the other countries as > separate projects later. As for me, I don't really care. What do the rest > of you think? I'd say Glantri will probably be enough work for one almanac, but this sort of project is a great idea, and I, for one, would like to eventually see it expanded into other areas as well. > BTW did are you going to post your tavern soon Patrick? :) Sorry. I left Tuesday afternoon to spend the night with my grandparents and didn't end up returning home until Friday evening, so it got slightly delayed;) Here we go (in Joshuan's words, and in Estin. not Kern): Perhaps the low point of the entire tour occurred during my visit to the barbaric frontier principality of Sablestone. Upon entering the village of Estin, I immediately noted that there were eight or nine taverns and inns clustered together in the village, a remarkable number for a town of this size. I hoped that the large number of establishments would mean that they were forced to be very high quality in order to compete. They each looked quite well-kept, as did the entire town. It reeked of humanity, of course, but apparently the military presence in town kept the external appearances neat and tidy. After making a long, tiring journey (such as the one I had just made) one needs a good ale (or six), so I hurriedly decided to go into the first tavern I came to. That tavern was the Tarnished Sovereign Saloon, a two-story wood and plaster affair with neat red trim. We stepped in off the peaceful streets of Estin, and into a completely different world. I was simultaneously blinded and deafened as I entered, an experience not entirely unlike being bashed in the head with a giant cymbal, but considerably less enjoyable. Were I not of such extraordinary fortitude, I may never have recovered, but, being the strong individual that I am, I was able to adjust in only a couple of minutes. The tavern was extremely dark, and the brilliant sunlight outside only heightened the blinding effect of the scantily-lit interior. A "band" (if it can be so called) was on a stage to the right of the door. One tone deaf man was torturing what looked to be half of an old cast-off calliope while another bashed metal plates with complete disregard for anything even remotely resembling rhythm. A pleasantly short, if rather dirty, woman, who appeared to be upset over the lack of the attention which patrons paid her, was shrieking at the top of her high-pitched voice an approximation of what was supposed to be a tender love song. Various patrons were shouting to one another in order to be heard over the clatter. I began walking toward a seat at the bar as far from the band as possible, but I felt something strange under my feet. It was slippery and spongy at once. Looking down, I saw the floor was covered with a layer of sawdust. I thought this remarkably strange, but any mystery is best pondered over a fine ale, so I continued to the bar. The bar, for our gentle readers who may be unfamiliar with this term, is long counter. The patrons sit on one side, using the countertop as a table, and the bartender stands on the other side pouring drinks, which are kept behind the bar. this particular bar had stools on steel posts bolted to the floor, so I climbed up onto a stool and immediately noted that they were brutally uncomfortable. I had to sit on my legs to reach the counter (which had been made ridiculously high by some obviously incompetent carpenter), and the wooden stool bit into my shins, threatening bruises if I stayed too long in this position. I managed to get a seat at the end of the bar furthest from the "musicians," next to a man (I think) who had apparently passed out long ago. The bartender came over, made one of the customary rude comments regarding my height, to which I made an answer regarding his bald spot, and asked me what I wanted. I oredered an ale. He poured me a mug, and I took a sip of some of the foulest ale this side of Port Tenobar. As I choked down the putrid liquid, I looked around at the other patrons (by now my eyes had almost fully adjusted to the dim surroundings). There were several women wearing very skimpy outfits, and about a dozen rough-looking men drinking. The men were all particularly dirty, perhaps from one of the nearby mines. One man and woman near me were screaming at each other about something I couldn't quite follow, but they soon went up to a room together. I watched one nasty-looking character spit, not into the provided spittoon, but right on the floor. I suppose the mystery of the sawdust was cleared up at least. I firmly believe that one should never waste a drop of ale, so I forced myself to gag down the entire mug (only once have I been unable to do this, at the unfortunate Port Tenobar incident). One thing I will say for that ale is that it did seem to have a high alcohol content, but I needed something better. Fortunately I always carry a few pints in case of just this sort of situation. The bartender returned to me, seeing the empty mug. I declined his offer for a refill, and asked if the other establishments in town were similar to this one. The man replied that, to his great embarassment, this is actually one of the quiter, cleaner inns in town. The patrons at the Sovereign were primarily miners, whereas the really lively inns were frequented by soldiers. As he finished telling me this, a shouted conversation between two miners suddenly escalated when one grabbed a chair and smashed it over the head of the other. The companions of each joined in, and soon, the entire tavern was engaged in a brutal brawl. The women seemed as adept as the men at brawling, and the bartender simply looked on. One patron apparently mistook me for a chair and tried to attack his assailant with my head. I dare say that the poor fool will never make THAT mistake again. The consabulary soon arrived, broke up the fight, and demanded that several of the initiators pay for the damage to the inn. My ordeal had tired me greatly, and I needed a place to drink my own ale. From what the bartender had said, this was one of the safest places in town to sleep, so I decided to order a room. I was careful to ask for a private room, which I was forced to pay for by the hour. I probably should have simply slept in the street, for the bed was terribly lumpy and crawling with bugs. Soon after I laid down I had to fight off a mangey young woman who didn't seem to be able to comprehend that I didn't want her services. In the morning, I simply left this atrocity as soon as I could get myself up (alright, perhaps it was early afternoon, not morning). The inn had gotten steadily louder through the night, so I was able to get much less sleep than I would have liked. I decided to try my luch at another tavern, so I walked over to the Musky Rat Inn. As I was about to open the door, a muscular, but scummy, man crashed through the window hear me, onto the street. He reeked of the same foul ale that the Sovereign had served, and I heard a similar cacophany from within. I wisely decided to turn and leave without a moment's more hesitation. Now that I think about it, except for my splitting headache, leaving Estin was by far the best part about the village. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 01:45:19 -0800 (PST) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships At 03:45 PM 4/3/97 EST, you wrote: >Fabrizio Paoli writes: >> >for AC1015 if it was possible. I would like to write up the stats for the >> >dragonfly, but that's a long way off... if anyone else wants to do it, you >> >might as well, it's probably pretty obvious and quick (or so we think :) ) >> >> Yes, Glantri is a magic-user country, but the first settlers of Glantri >> where the Flaems, masters in Fire magic, while the "followers of air" >> settled in Alphatia and this is one of the reasons for Alphatia having >> skyships and Glantri not. >> Moreover the Dragonfly you mentioned was made by Volospin Aendyr, an >> Alphatian that settled in Glantri. >> Probably the Glantrians aren't much interested in air magic and skyships. > Well, other countries, with *less wizards* have airship, for example Karameikos, the Heldann Freeholds, etc.. Since *magic is needed* to make airships, surely Glantri would have them, maybe not before Alphatia, but before these countries. Not to mention the fact that I just read the description in AC11 Book of Woundrous Inventions again. The Glantrian military has a squadron on active duty, I wonder how many are off duty, out of the military, and what they're used for. And what other airships have wizards been inspired to make when they saw the dragonfly... Anyway, Glantri used these in a war against dragons...maybe something for a timeline. One could use it to add flavor in the time of the Dragonlord perhaps, but it's been a long time since I read the 1st 2 books so I don't know if it would fit into the plot... I think it would be best in modern times. More and more nations of Mystara began using airships more and more, and logically Glantri would too. > But, I bet you they'd be very interested in the magic used by the >gnomes of Serraine as part of their power-generators. Recall that they >have captured fire-elementals that they use as power for some of their >contraptions... Besides, only the original settlers of Glantri were >Flaems, now it's a mix of several different magic using cultures > This sounds interesting... and it seems like I've asked the question to this answer. Thorfinn mentioned that Glantrians likely wouldn't have many shipwrights. There is a large river system in Glantri, which they would trade on, but they are far from the ocean, separated by other countries, so this is quite likely correct. However, it doesn't matter for airships. They're not necessarily ships, but just *any* flying craft. Anyway, airships are already uncommon and expensive. Other pre-Champions of Mystara airships that could use stats are Rumblebotty's flying Nightmare (another BoWI craft,) which I suppose would be in the Broken Lands. Maybe the humanoids wouldn't have that many though. If it would be too hard or generic to add another orc-lord, this could be added to Mystara's history. There's a castle in the clouds and a clockwork dragon in BoWI. Also the elven lightship (or whatever it is,) and all the ships created by clan relics. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:12:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >In fact Elves on the surface world have a very nice ability to > >completely corrupt their spellbooks with "non-traditional" foreign > >spells. > > > >Shadow Elves can get Elf spells from stolen or lost spellbooks, and vice > >cersa, or even through an Elf companion (rare as that may be). All > >elves can get human spells from Glantri or (pre-WotI) Alphatia. This > >could have a really annoying effect on a campaign world where power is > >determined partially by what spells you can cast. > And all humans can get elf (and shadow elf) spells... In my campaign, no humans could get elf spells since we considered elfmagic of a different nature (slightly divine.) However I changed this after my conversion to Gurps, because two kinds of magic is enough. However in the old days using OD&D i decided that to keep things in balance, elves who wanted to learn els spells could not learn human magic and elves who used human magic could not use elf magic. well... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:33:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-04-04 19:14:53 EST, jam@jamm.com (Jenni A. M. > Merrifield [strawberryJAMM]) writes: > > << Do you think that a Faery using their inborn "invisibility to mortals" > can be detected by the use of a normal "detect invisibility" spell? > If so, why? If not, why not? >> > > Yes. They are invisible, so Detect Invisible should detect them. Also, > Second Sight will detect invisible fairies but not invisible mortal wizards, > so it would seem that "invisibility to mortals" is a slightly weaker power > than standard "invisibility" in terms of its effects. What about 'Detest Invisibility'? ;P Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:53:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-04-04 04:44:36 EST, dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it writes: > > << PS: who said the Original Tree is dead? Have u played out CM7? If u played > it correctly, at the end the Tree could have been saved as well as the whole > Sylvan Realm (and this could be another possibility for the Alfheim elves: > they could return there instead of retaking Alfheim, thus leaving a gap of > thousands of miles between them and those shadowelves... maybe it's time to > dig out your copy of CM7 and let it play it in 1015 by some intrepid Feadiel > elves? That could be a great feat for that clan..) >> > > Given that CM 7 starts out in Alfheim, it might be better to run that > adventure > before the Shadow Elves conquer Alfheim. Then, when things start going bad > in Alfheim, the Elves have three rather than two places to go. However, > given > the difficulties of using that Rainbow Bridge, most of the Elves are unable > to > use it and go to Karameikos or Wendar. I dont have CM7. How does the rainbow bridge work? Also some more info on the sylvan realm would be nice for the next almanach. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:37:06 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Boxed sets...Diego MY>I woyuld like to get the DB as well if someone could post it it would be MY>great. I have played OD&D for 10 years, but not as much in the past 2 MY>years and I am a bit our of touch. MY> One question is the new/old Mystara box set for AD&D a good buy MY>and the same for the other box sets? I aready have the Gazetteers. MY> -Diego I kind of liked the Karameikos set, but the Glantri one wasn't as well done. They are WAY overpriced for basically just rehashed information. Necromancer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:35:14 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: [Mystara] Classes I give halflings all thief abilities. They are equivalent to 1/2 their level. Max at 20th level (10th level thief abilities). I also have no level limitations on classes, as per the optional Cyclopedia rule. I also give dwarves Open Locks at 1/2 their level, max 20th. I give elves spell abilities up to 20th level. More powerful, but not equal to a MU. I've also allowed druids to start at 1st level. I've added two spells of each level to their selection and disallowed access to cleric spells. If anyone is interested in more information, I will post it. Necromancer MY>With the recent talks on classes, I just like to put forth MY>couple of problems I always had with D&D classes. First, MY>why doesn't halfling have thief skills? In a standard MY>fantasy game setting, which Mystara can be consider as one, MY>halfling should be pretty good at thiefing. And consider MY>that they are somewhat underpowered compare to other classes, MY>I don't think giving them thief ability will disrupt the MY>balance too much. Second is the human can advance higher MY>than demi-human. Consider the longer life span, history, MY>and natural ability of demi-human when compares to human. MY>It seems to be that it would be more reasonable that MY>demi-human should able to advance farther than human in MY>certain specific class, while human can be more diversered. MY>Such as that elf should have the most powerful wizards, MY>dwarf have the mightest warriors, and halfling have the MY>best thiefs. While human are moderately good at most MY>classes and can combine skills from different classes MY>better. But that would require a fundamental change to the MY>game and probably will be too disruptive to the game. But MY>has anyone make changes such as that? If so, could you MY>share your thought with me. Thanks. MY> John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:40:47 -0700 From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: [Mystara] Excuse me, I think you've GURPed. Haavard R. Faanes wrote: > In my campaign, no humans could get elf spells since we considered > elfmagic of a different nature (slightly divine.) However I changed > this after my conversion to Gurps, because two kinds of magic is enough. So, you going to share any of your conversion work with us? - -- Leroy Van Camp III | "By the way, this may look like a slab of liver, malacoda@lesbois.com | but its an external brain pack." owner-mystara-l@io.com | Ratbert ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 13:03:09 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals In a message dated 97-04-05 10:21:34 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: << What about 'Detest Invisibility'? ;P >> I suppose that anyone under the influence of that spell would hate any invisible creature, whether fairy or mortal. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 13:03:05 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) In a message dated 97-04-05 10:28:42 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: << I dont have CM7. How does the rainbow bridge work? >> Keep in mind that this adventure was meant to be a challenge for a party of Elves who have exceeded 10th level (in OD&D terms, they have attack rank D or so). Using the Rainbow Bridge involved quite a bit of puzzle solving (not a problem for the fleeing elves -- presumably the party of adventurers who underwent the adventure would have explained the solutions) as well as one bit of magic ball riding that involved dexterity checks -- which I suspect would have been a problem for a large group of refugees that must have included members who were very young, very old, or infirm. Another problem is that the Rainbow Bridge makes infrequent appearances throughout Alfheim, although a skilled astrologer can supposedly divine where it will appear next. I am not sure just how many elves can get into the Bridge per appearance -- the issue simply does not come up a party of eight or so elves. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 04:10:52 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >And all humans can get elf (and shadow elf) spells... I wondered about that too, but GAZ5 has a rather convenient and not-at- all explained note saying that humans *can't* learn elf spells. Hmm... Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #36 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #37 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, April 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 037 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 04:08:52 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >Something has occurred to me -- one of the two Aengmors is a city, while the >other is an entire nation. If we regard the city as being part of the >country, then >there is no confusion as long as it is clear whether you are talking about a >city >or a country -- it is no worse than "New York, New York". Yes it is - New York is IN New York (isn't it?), but Aengmor isn't IN Aengmor. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 14:16:26 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim Question > >Hi >To my great sorrow, I still don't have the Alfheim Gazetteer, so I have >question: What clan was dominant in the Southern or Southwestern portions >of Alfheim? Perhaps around the area of Shieldtree? I really appreciate >your help with this. >Thanks >Patrick Shieldtree = Clan Redarrow ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:19:52 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aengmor / Aengmor problem In a message dated 97-04-05 14:01:50 EST, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << Yes it is - New York is IN New York (isn't it?), but Aengmor isn't IN Aengmor. >> Ah, but if you read the rest of my post you would see that it is, in a sense. If you define the nation of Aengmor as "the surface realm of the Shadow Elves", then the raising of Aengmor would have just expanded the nation of Aengmor to the northwest. Forget the fact that they are not contiguous -- the Shadow Elves will certainly be fighting hard to correct that little problem! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 12:20:42 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals At 09:05 PM 4/4/97 -0500, Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: ><< Do you think that a Faery using their inborn "invisibility to mortals" > can be detected by the use of a normal "detect invisibility" spell? > If so, why? If not, why not? >> > >Yes. They are invisible, so Detect Invisible should detect them. Also, >Second Sight will detect invisible fairies but not invisible mortal wizards, >so it would seem that "invisibility to mortals" is a slightly weaker power >than standard "invisibility" in terms of its effects. Hold on. I just looked up "invisibility to mortals" in PC1. Here's the quote (PC1: _Tall_Tales_of_the_Wee_Folk_, TSR, p25): All of the fey races hav th innate ability of "invisibility to mortals". As far as can b discerned, this is an ability to bend light of all wavelenghts longer than that of the ultraviolet, including all visible light and infrared radiation, so that the fairy cannot be seen, except by those creatures (some insects for, example) which can perceive the ultraviolet and radiation (e.g., microwaves) with shorter wavelenghths. Creatures with "second sight", which includes other fairies, are also able to perceive persons and objects that are "invisible to mortals"; hence, this is different from normal magical invisibility, which makes its subject disappear to everyone. Sometimes it is possible to perceive the faintest glimmer in the air, like the shimmering of air over pavement on a hot day, when a fairy is present. This especially occurs in the evening after sunset, when much of the light is near the violet end of the visible spectrum. The spell "detect invisible" will reveal creatures and objects "invisible to mortals"; "dispel magic" will cause a fairy to become visible, but after a round the fairy can will itself back to "invisibilty to mortals". So it appears that my question is already answered, and that your thought of it being a "weaker power" is sort of correct. (Except, of course that Faeries can turn their invisibility on and off at will, not requiring any direct spellcasting to acomplish it). I still wonder, however, how regualar "invisibility" is accomplished? Is it also an ability to "bend light", or is it more a kind of complusion to "just not notice" (i.e., consciously see or acknowledge) an "invisible" individual? If they are acomplished differently, why does the one spell "detect invisible" detect both forms? If they are accomplished the same way, why doesn't the "intuition" of "second sight" work with regular "invisibility"? The thing is, PC1 goes on to explain that "second sight" isn't an ability to see into the ultraviolet, but is instead some extrasensory pereception or intuition "involving time". Quoting from PC1 again: "Basically, from perceiving the fairy's visible, normal shape at another point in time, the seer recognizes the magical being for what it is." Apparently, it is because the individual will somehow "know" what the Faery really looks like because the have or WILL see it as its true form. Also, "second sight" doesn't just see Faeries that are "invisible to mortals", but can also recognize the "true form" of a Faery that is "polymorphed" or "shapechanged". I'd say the chances of you seeing what a regulary "invisible" individual really looks like at some point in time is at least equal to the chances of you seeing what a Faery you happened to meet looks like. Also, why can't the extrasensory perception of "second sight" see through regular forms of "polymorph" and other shapechanges? I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the matter. - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:29:47 -0500 (EST) From: Mouse Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Webpage? > Is there a Mystara Webpage, if so what is the sight? Well as far as I am aware, there are only two *official* sites for Mystara. They are: ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/ && http://www.tsrinc.com/games/adnd/adnd.html (This one apparently has not been completed yet) There are also numerous webpages created by fans as well. A couple of these are: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ && http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/2843/index.html && http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh/ I hope this helps. Mouse Life is pain...!! Anyone who says differently is selling something. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 23:57:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals I dont know if this is what you wanna hear(if anything) but here it goes: Invisibility is a magical power. (Which bends the lightrays as you explained) The Invisibility spell is a magical power. It makes the target invisible. Meaning that the target just cannot be seen. Its magic! The detect magic spell allows the caster to see things that cannot be seen through normal means. (Invisible things) Which means that detect invisibility lets the caster detect those who are _invisible_ (to mortals and others) Even though it may seem so, I'm not saying this is the only interpretation of the rules. In my campaign I have allowed people with second sight to see all invisible things. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:01:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Webpage? On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Mouse wrote: > > Is there a Mystara Webpage, if so what is the sight? > Well as far as I am aware, there are only two *official* sites for > Mystara. They are: > ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/ > && > http://www.tsrinc.com/games/adnd/adnd.html > (This one apparently has not been completed yet) > > There are also numerous webpages created by fans as well. A couple of these > are: > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ > && > http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/2843/index.html > && > http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh/ On my homepage there are links to all the mystara sites Ive found. Feeel free to check it out. Not much else interesting there yet, but I hope to add some mystara stuff there soon. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 16:21:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > Yes. They are invisible, so Detect Invisible should detect them. Also, > Second Sight will detect invisible fairies but not invisible mortal wizards, > so it would seem that "invisibility to mortals" is a slightly weaker power > than standard "invisibility" in terms of its effects. I seem to recall PC1 saying something to the effect of invisible fairies creating a sort of shimmering effect in the sunlight, that can be seen if you look close enough (sort of like the Predators in their camoflage form). Question: How would Invis. to Mortals work in the Hollow World? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 15:20:40 -0800 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals At 12:20 PM 4/5/97 -0800, Jenni wrote: > I still wonder, however, how regualar "invisibility" is accomplished? >Is it also an ability to "bend light", or is it more a kind of complusion >to "just not notice" (i.e., consciously see or acknowledge) an "invisible" >individual? I usually don't worry about the underlying mechanism and just leave it at "can't be seen," but if I had to suggest a mech, I'd prefer neither compulsion to not notice (otherwise how come you can hear, smell, etc. the invisible person?), nor bending light waves (too pseudo-science for my tastes), but rather the invisible object/agent becoming COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT. If you want to go deeper into pseudo-science with that, it would mean that rather than absorbing or reflecting light rays, light passes straight through. For effects or game systems where there is a chance to notice the invisible thing (i.e. some sort of vague distortion), you can always say that the transparency is not 100%, thus a slight distortion ensues, just as the cells in our eyes between the lens and retina are transparent and cause only a very slight distortion of visual input. /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Web: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ ~| Amateur conguero; Q(O+H)Q(G+W)AEEEBGKUS Mystaran; P75 on Ethernet |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 16:29:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, David Melik wrote: > Well, other countries, with *less wizards* have airship, for example > Karameikos, the Heldann Freeholds, etc.. Does Karameikos have Airships? Not to my knowledge. The only Airship I have known them to have is the mutual Karameikos/Heldann Airship that the two groups jointly escaped the HW in. A Heldannic Airship. As for the Heldanners having Airships, their Airships are powered by an Immortal artifact, and not magically made. They make the ships out of mundane materials (wood, etc) and place a receptacle in them to allow them to receive power from the Artifact. One reason why the Heldanners have/had more success in the HW- Immortal level magic powers their ships. > Since *magic is needed* to make airships, surely Glantri would have > them, maybe not before Alphatia, but before these countries. Not to > mention the fact that I just read the description in AC11 Book of > Woundrous Inventions again. The Glantrian military has a squadron on > active duty, I wonder how many are off duty, out of the military, and > what they're used for. And what other airships have wizards been > inspired to make when they saw the dragonfly... For the magic needed to make them, see above. As for the Volospin's Dragonflies, I seem to recall in GAZ3 in the adventure section, a mention of a specific type of fuel needed to power these- as both were written by Bruce, I'd say both entries are valid. Using the fuel bit, it makes sense that the Dragonflies are not as all powerful and useful as they might seem. > Anyway, Glantri used these in a war against dragons...maybe something for a > timeline. One could use it to add flavor in the time of the Dragonlord > perhaps, but it's been a long time since I read the 1st 2 books so I don't > know if it would fit into the plot... I think you're thinking of the adventure entry in GAZ3... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:27:27 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals In a message dated 97-04-05 18:44:20 EST, dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu (David 'Azure' Leland) writes: << I usually don't worry about the underlying mechanism and just leave it at "can't be seen," but if I had to suggest a mech, I'd prefer neither compulsion to not notice (otherwise how come you can hear, smell, etc. the invisible person?), nor bending light waves (too pseudo-science for my tastes), but rather the invisible object/agent becoming COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT. >> I don't know -- there is a lot more pseudo-science involved in making a living being completely transparent than there is in bending light around it. See the H.G. Wells novel _The Invisible Man_ for a discussion of the problems of invisibility by transparency. In D&D, invisible creatures are not required to fast or go naked in order to remain unseen. Of course, no refraction of light can be perfect -- thus the distortion effect that sometimes gives away invisible creatures. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:27:20 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals In a message dated 97-04-05 15:36:59 EST, strawberry@jamm.com (Jenni A. M. Merrifield) writes: << I'd say the chances of you seeing what a regulary "invisible" individual really looks like at some point in time is at least equal to the chances of you seeing what a Faery you happened to meet looks like. Also, why can't the extrasensory perception of "second sight" see through regular forms of "polymorph" and other shapechanges? I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the matter. >> Perhaps there is something inherent in standard (as opposed to fairy) spells that protects the invisible or polymorphed creature from being detected by second sight? But you have hit upon a major difference between spells and fairy powers -- since the latter are activated "at will" rather than a set number of times per day, we could deduce that they require less magical energy -- thus my suggestion that spells are "stronger" than fairy powers. Of course, the fairy can keep on using his special powers long after a Mage will have run out of spells. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:27:26 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Invisibility To Mortals In a message dated 97-04-05 18:41:06 EST, jsmill@IMAP1.ASU.EDU (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: << Question: How would Invis. to Mortals work in the Hollow World?>> The available rules are contradictory on this subject. In my own campaign, Invisibility to Mortals did not work in the Hollow World because (according to the boxed set) invisibility did not work there. However, the Azcan supplement describes Hollow World fairies who have that ability, and the AD&D version of the Hollow World does not mention any problem with invisibility. Here is my later reconciliation: because of the difference in light sources, an Invisibility spell learned outside of the Hollow World will not work there. As of AC 1000, no mortal mage had yet figured out how to cast an Invisility spell that worked in the Hollow World. As a result, they had no incentive to research Detect Invisibility, which would have worked normally. However, they eventually researched these spells as a result of encounters with invisible fairies. After the events of _Wrath of the Immortals_, normal invisibility starts working just fine in the Hollow World. Within a few years, the spells _Invisibility_ and _Detect Invisibility_ become common knowledge among Mages there. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:37:18 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >I dont have CM7. >How does the rainbow bridge work? >Also some more info on the sylvan realm would be nice for the next >almanach. Yes, yes, yes!!! CM7 is my most-wanted D&D book. I've always wanted to know more about the Sylvan Realm, the Tree of Life there and especially the Rainbow Bridge. Information in the almanac, or just posted to the list, would be great. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:19:18 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Classes, halfling thieves On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 David Melik wrote: >Sorry if this seemed like another "rules" are guidelines rant, but in every >"rulebook" I've seen that's what it says, and I'm an extremist and I just >got going. I hope this helps though. I couldn't agree more. The game is there to be played, not used like a computer programme. (Of course that analogy doesn't work if you're a programmer... ;-) Everything can be changed, nothing is written in stone. It does help if you keep the most basic principles in mind (though I'm not sure I could explain what they are), but otherwise we should follow the designers' advice: "It's your game. Feel free to use or discard anything that you like a lot or don't like." (Not sure which particular game that's from though). Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:11:31 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-04 17:25:21 EST, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) >writes: ><< And all humans can get elf (and shadow elf) spells... >> > >Not according to the gazetteers, although going by them I would have >restricted Elves in terms of which spells they could learn. Allowing >Elves to cast any Human or Elf spell while wearing armor -- and >eventually to learn spells of up to 9th level -- is just too much. I don't see anything wrong with letting elves use human spells. You just have to make sure that you have a good control of which ones they get hold of in your campaign. Of course, it all depends on the way your campaign is set up - balance isn't a universal D&D measure, it's specific to different people's campaigns. By the way, from your comments above it seems as if you disapprove of the extra Gazetteer elf rules, and presumably you also disagree with allowing elves to get to 36th level. Do you? >P.S. -- A mere nitpick, but most humans cannot cast spells at all. Yep, that's what makes elves so cool. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 19:58:24 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Classes On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >With the recent talks on classes, I just like to put forth >couple of problems I always had with D&D classes. I have similar feelings about this. Which is why I don't let the D&D class system get to me - I just meddle and let players be essentially what they want to be. For instance, my brother likes to play Elves, but since my campaigns tend to run a long time and get to very high levels, he hates the 10th level restriction and attack ranks (which are essentially pointless). The extra magic rules don't impress him either, so I let him use the 36th level rules from the Appendix of the Cyclopedia. This makes him happy while not unbalancing the game too much (have you SEEN the XP it takes to get up to 36th level elf???). I also have had the following character variations in the past in my campaigns: an elf thief, a vampire, an assassin and a rakasta thief. It's quite simple - if you don't like the class restrictions, change them. I agree that currently demihumans are underpowered (especially in high-level play, without the Gazetteer extra rules, and then especially Halflings). So change them - I agree that giving Halflings some thieving abilities would be fine, probably without adding to their XP chart (well, maybe a little). As far as I can tell, the demihuman restrictions are there because the designers thought humans progressed slower at first, but then overtook them in later life. If you don't like this, don't use it. You can keep the game balanced as long as you pay attention to what you're doing and how it will affect the players. Remember that the characters in your campaigns need only be balanced with each other, not with all other games (though that is important if you are planning on shifting characters between campaigns). Does that help? Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:09:26 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >Does Karameikos have Airships? Not to my knowledge. The only Airship I >have known them to have is the mutual Karameikos/Heldann Airship that the >two groups jointly escaped the HW in. A Heldannic Airship. I thought it was an Alphatian skyship, actually, but I might be wrong. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 01:01:48 -0800 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tavern Tour >Perhaps the low point of the entire tour occurred during my visit to the >barbaric frontier principality of Sablestone. Upon entering the village of [...] Excellent read! And I was afraid everyone would want their inn to be the crux of some super magical network or great conspiracy. /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Web: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ ~| Amateur conguero; Q(O+H)Q(G+W)AEEEBGKUS Mystaran; P75 on Ethernet |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Apr 97 09:26:50 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: [Mystara] Books as inspiration I have just finished reading Harry Harrison's Hammer & The Cross Trilogy which has been a great inspiration (as well as a riveting read) about alternative clerics in the medieval Norse regions of Mystara. Also I have found the Falco books by Lindsey Davis excellent sources for Imperial Rome (i.e. Thyatis). Has anyone else read any books that are not directly related to D&D that are useful sources of information? Alan Jones http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 16:46:07 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships I still don't have any stats what-so-ever on those airships, can someone help me with this? Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 16:46:31 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Classes, halfling thieves >Everything can be changed, nothing is written in stone. It does help if >you keep the most basic principles in mind (though I'm not sure I could >explain what they are), but otherwise we should follow the designers' >advice: "It's your game. Feel free to use or discard anything that you >like a lot or don't like." (Not sure which particular game that's from >though). AD&D DM Guide got something like that :) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 13:54:14 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] Helena or Helena > Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: > > > > On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Rob Rickard wrote: > > > > > > > Was Helena Daphnotarthius (DotE & PWA) suppose to be Helena Ledamiades > > > > > (WotI). > > > > > > > > > > They have the same first names and follow the same Immortal (Valerias) > > > > > and live in Thyatis City, but one dies (WotI) and other lives on past > > > > > WotI. > > > > > Aaron Allston created both but I cant see why he would set the > > > > > characters up to be confusing. > > > > > > > Helena Daphnotarthius became an admiral later in the war. > > > > Helena Ledamiades was a mortal form of Valerias who cursed Thincol. > > > > So they are two different persons. > > > > > > > > Aleksei > > > > > > When I played Riots I played them as two seperate people too, but I had > > > re named Helena Ledamiades to Velena Ledamiades And jacked her age up > > > to 50. I made Helena Daphnotarthius a close family member of her. But > > > I also had Valerias (Ledamiades) use Daphnotarthius to spread the > > > coruption. > > > > > > I could not see why Arron Allston created the two characters with the > > > same first names, Immortals, in the same area.......but left them with > > > different last names. Almost as if he thought he created a new > > > character (Ledamiades in WotI) but forgot about the first one he made > > > (Daphnotarthius in DotE). There are just alike excpt for last names. and > > > the fact that they take on a totaly different paths in the next > > > published released (PWA). > > > > > > Did arron want two Valerias Helenas? one set to destroy Thyatis the > > > other to fight for it? > > > > > >Rob > > > > Well, the name Helena is not really that uncommon, is it? It's not like > > every character has to have a different name. And the Roman Empire (on > > which Thyatis is based) didn't have all that many first names. > > > > Aleksei > > It annoys me I guess that TSR made two Helenas' like this. > > Hey one thing that we misssed ......... > > > > Helena Daphnotarthius became an admiral later in the war. > > > > Helena Ledamiades was a mortal form of Valerias who cursed Thincol. > > > > So they are two different persons. > > > > > > > > Aleksei > Vanya was the moody Immortal that cursed Thincol. Do you think that she > does this to get Eusebius in power? > > Why do you think Daphnotarthius did not join Ledamiades? > > Rob Here is something else that I just remembered. Herr Rolf Graustein a alchemist of Glantri (GAZ 3) and Herr Rolf who turns out to be Wulf von Klagendorf(PWA) of the Heldan Knights (Dragon mag & HotPA) both by Bruce Heard. I wonder why Helena and Rolf were both created twice as different characters by the same authors. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:02:52 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Books as inspiration >just finished reading Harry Harrison's Hammer & The Cross Trilogy which > has been a great inspiration (as well as a riveting read) about alternative > clerics in the medieval Norse regions of Mystara. Also I have found the Falco > books by Lindsey Davis excellent sources for Imperial Rome (i.e. Thyatis). > Has anyone else read any books that are not directly related to D&D that are > useful sources of information? One series that I have very successfully incorporated into Mystara is Lloyd Alexander's Vesper Holly Adventures. They are short juvenile fiction, fairly simplistic, but very well-written. They are easy reading, and three of them came in handy in my campaign. The first book, is set in a fictional version of Albania in the 1890s. The land is plagued by conflict between Ottoman newcomers and Slavic peasants. I placed this area in Western Karameikos, where I have made the conflict between Thyatian settlers (primarily from the area around Tel Akbir) and Traladarans more intense than elsewhere. The background stories in this novel provide great atmosphere for an area that TSR left pretty much empty. I strongly recommend that you read at least this book. Don't be embarassed because it's a kids' book; that means that it won't take very long for you to read it:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 00:12:32 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Cover for Almanac I've already received 2 offers for making maps for the new almanac. Micheal told me to ask for volunteers to add pictures, particularly a cover picture, for the new almanac. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 00:12:05 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] WotI I just noticed another strange thing about WotI. The alphatian fight for Ixion and Alphatia (the immortals), what about the Shye-Lawr whose main immortal is Eiryndul, that is on Rad's side ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 00:12:01 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? At 21.05 04/04/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-04 17:25:21 EST, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) >writes: > ><< And all humans can get elf (and shadow elf) spells... >> > >Not according to the gazetteers, although going by them I would have >restricted Elves in terms of which spells they could learn. Allowing >Elves to cast any Human or Elf spell while wearing armor -- and >eventually to learn spells of up to 9th level -- is just too much. I looked back at that note on GAZ 5. I think it refers only to Treekepers spells. > >P.S. -- A mere nitpick, but most humans cannot cast spells at all. > I wrote "all", but I was referring to mages. > > ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 00:12:36 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] More on Elves While reading Cthul timeline of Glantrian history I found this: c.528 BC: A few Sheyallia elves, fleeing the Serpent Peninsula and the Plain of Fire, settle in Glantri.(CoM) and this: 730 AC: Settlers to Glantri include fair elves, and humans from Traladara and Thyatian colonies in Ylaruam.(HW) I checked CoM and (Explorer manual, page 25, 3rd column, 4th line) I found that, not long after 528 BC, "a few Sheyallia elves made their way into Glantri or Darokin (and thence to Alfheim), but most turned back to the caverns." This bring even more chaos in elvish history. Does someone remembers if in the Dragonlord trilogy, set around 490 AC, it mentions elvish cultures in southern Glantri ? Because, if Erewan went there in 700 AC and Belcadiz arrived in 730 AC, the only elvish settlement in 490 AC could be those of Sheyallia elves. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master - Lord of Firewalkers Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 20:09:11 -0500 From: MRJohnson Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > I just noticed another strange thing about WotI. > The alphatian fight for Ixion and Alphatia (the immortals), what about the > Shye-Lawr whose main immortal is Eiryndul, that is on Rad's side ? It's also stated in WotI that the Shiye-Lawr are opposed to the war against Glantri. This is presumably because they were urged to take this stance by Eiryndul. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 18:08:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Books as inspiration On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Alan Jones wrote: > Has anyone else read any books that are not directly related to D&D that are > useful sources of information? Try the Coldfire trilogy by C.S. Friedman. Great series of novels- one of the main characters is a great example of how to play a powerful undead, and Friedman's descriptions of magic and its usage provides an interesting new look at how magic might work on Mystara. Great series. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 18:11:09 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Does someone remembers if in the Dragonlord trilogy, set around 490 AC, it > mentions elvish cultures in southern Glantri ? I believe it does, yes, though I'm not positive. I seem to recall that there were those who thought that Fox-Eyes (whatever his name is) might be an elf. > Because, if Erewan went there in 700 AC and Belcadiz arrived in 730 AC, the > only elvish settlement in 490 AC could be those of Sheyallia elves. Not really. There were elves in Glantri eons ago, IIRC. The elves were the first to settle Glantri, following the destruction of Blackmoor. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 18:06:33 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Helena or Helena On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Rob Rickard wrote: > Here is something else that I just remembered. Herr Rolf Graustein a > alchemist of Glantri (GAZ 3) and Herr Rolf who turns out to be Wulf von > Klagendorf(PWA) of the Heldan Knights (Dragon mag & HotPA) both by > Bruce Heard. > > I wonder why Helena and Rolf were both created twice as different > characters by the same authors. As someone else pointed out, Helena (and, in this case, Rolf) are probably not uncommon names where they originate- Helena is Thyatian, Rolf is Hattian. I don't see your point of creating characters twice. It is simply a matter of reusing a name, which is something entirely different. And in Wulf von Klagendorf's case, Rolf isn't even his real name, but a pseudonym he uses to travel under so no one knows who he is. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:35:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elf Clerics in AD&D? In a message dated 97-04-06 01:40:11 EST, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << By the way, from your comments above it seems as if you disapprove of the extra Gazetteer elf rules, and presumably you also disagree with allowing elves to get to 36th level. Do you? >> Not really -- but I would make sure that there were compensations for any Elf advantages. In OD&D (as oppposed to AD&D), it seems that the main method for limiting demi-humans is with an XP penalty as opposed to a level limit -- compare Dwarves with Human Fighters, for example. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #37 **************************** Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:19:58 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #38 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: c13fff82f95b96225ebd5c88faa12755 mystara-digest Tuesday, April 8 1997 Volume 02 : Number 038 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:57:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI In a message dated 97-04-06 18:46:33 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << I just noticed another strange thing about WotI. The alphatian fight for Ixion and Alphatia (the immortals), what about the Shye-Lawr whose main immortal is Eiryndul, that is on Rad's side ? >> I think the Shiye-Lawr tried (in vain, of course) to keep Alphatia out of the war. I don't think they ever directly betrayed the Alphatian cause, but they seem to have opposed and resisted the war as much as possible. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:11:26 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Books as inspiration On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 Patrick wrote: >One series that I have very successfully incorporated into Mystara is Lloyd Alexander's Vesper Holly Adventures. They are short juvenile fiction, fairly simplistic, but very well-written. They are easy reading, and three of them came in handy in my campaign. The first book, is set in a fictional version of Albania in the 1890s. The land is plagued by conflict between Ottoman newcomers and Slavic peasants. I placed this area in Western Karameikos, where I have made the conflict between Thyatian settlers (primarily from the area around Tel Akbir) and Traladarans more intense than elsewhere. The background stories in this novel provide great atmosphere for an area that TSR left pretty much empty. That sounds very interesting. Would you be able to give me some specifics of your incorporation? It would be nice to have some "extra" little stuff to add into Mystara. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:08:43 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Books as inspiration On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 Alan Jones wrote: II have just finished reading Harry Harrison's Hammer & The Cross Trilogy which has been a great inspiration (as well as a riveting read) about alternative clerics in the medieval Norse regions of Mystara. Also I have found the Falco books by Lindsey Davis excellent sources for Imperial Rome (i.e. Thyatis). Has anyone else read any books that are not directly related to D&D that are useful sources of information? I'm sure this will be ridiculously obvious for most people, but in case some of you haven't read it already... J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Practically every aspect of fantasy role-playing owes a lot to Tolkien. The DUNE books, though perhaps a little futuristic for Mystara, are a great source of information about deserts and water-scarce areas. They also have other aspects to them that are interesting for role-playing. Terry Pratchett's Discworld series is great if you want to lighten up your campaign a little. Practically every book you read (fantasy or non-fantasy) can give you ideas for adventures if you look hard enough, and often you don't need to look at all. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:39:29 +0200 (METDST) From: "Oystein H. Lund" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Books as inspiration On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Alan Jones wrote: >I have just finished reading Harry Harrison's Hammer & The Cross Trilogy which has been a great inspiration (as well as a riveting read) about alternative clerics in the medieval Norse regions of Mystara. Also I have found the Falco books by Lindsey Davis excellent sources for Imperial Rome (i.e. Thyatis). Has anyone else read any books that are not directly related to D&D that are useful sources of information? >Alan Jones >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html Sad to say, I must warn you against taking any of the information about the Norse faith(s) that's presented in the Harrison books at face value. As far as I can tell, the faith bears little or no resemblance to anything I've ever read about my native mythology and religious practices - not to mention that Harrison plays so fast and loose with the 'medieval' nature of his setting that it plain hurts to read. (Vikings with passports ?!?) This despite his having a professor of medieval history as a consultant for the book. By all means use it for Mystara - as far as I can tell, it's a good approximation of how clerics on Mystara would serve a pantheon. But the connection to genuine Norse culture and mythology is tenuous at best. _______________________________________________________________________ | Oeystein H. Lund ,kj160@lhg.hib.no | | "Who are we, why are we here ?" | | - Forget the questions, someone gimme another beer. | |_____________________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 12:34:10 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships Deathwatch wrote: >I still don't have any stats what-so-ever on those airships, can someone help me with this? You should buy Champions of Mystara, where you will find the "Designer's Manual" (full of details about airships) and the dairy of the Princess Ark. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:43:31 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Tale of the Comet and TSR status Oh, and btw, has any of you never thought about this strange thing: TSR started to make money with OD&D, and thus with Mystara, and the year after they closed Mystara... BOOOM! They got into financial trouble... Could it be a curse of universal proportion (maybe Arneson and Gygax casted a Geas on their creation that had these results ...) :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:40:42 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) At 12.08 04/04/97 EST, you wrote: >DM wrote: >>I do not think the Shyie have one tree of life, and i'm basing my assuumption on these 3 facts: >>1. they worship Eyrindul, and as we all know, he isn't in very good terms with Ilsundal, so i don't see why they should also bring with them an AVATAR of that Immortal if it was Eyrindul that guided them to Alphatia (they probably have some other never detailed relic, as other elven clans have) >Maybe gaining a Tree of Life was one of the reasons that Eyrindul lured the Shyie away... I don't think the animosity between the two elven deities extends to such an extent that one would deny support to any elves because they primarily follow the other, I highly doubt that the elven immortals are that petty. Err, IIRC Ilsundal doesn't support Verdier nor Meditor elves, doesn't he? But they are elven clans, ain't they? So, there's something that keeps whispering in my mind that this Ilsundal-Eyrindul love you portray is not right... I still think that Eyrindul is a bit jealous of Ilsundal, and so having his Shiye worshipping the ToL under his nose would be IMO like... err.. Orthodox Christians worshipping a Catholic Icon (i do not know if u see my point) >>2. it is nowhere stated that Mealiden created ONE SEEDLING FOR EACH CLAN that left the Sylvan Realm: so my hypothesis is that Shiye had no Tree from the beginning, probably because they were part of another major clan (one of those who inhabited Alfheim or the Callarii) >You're right. It's not specifically stated. However, it is implied. Each clan in the alfheim gaz has one ToL. The newly arriving Feadil clan has a ToL. The precedence is that each clan has it's own ToL, and each clan has it's own TreeKeepers too (iirc). This is the only information we have to go on. The logical assumption from this that each clan has it's own ToL is the assumption with the least deviation from the canon material. >Jody Duncan If u really want the Shiye to have a ToL, then they could have just taken a branch from one of the others ToL (as the Feadiel did) and then fleeing with that, but i still think there is 1 unaccounted tree (because Trueflower clan has one IMO!) DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:53:24 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet Hey about the Comet: isn't it funny that TSR produced a product with this name and about this topic the same year the Hale-Bopp has been discovered (without prior knowing about Hale-Bopp)? Is an astrological disaster going to strike earth as it will on Mystara? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:02:57 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Elves and Immortals Well, it's me and my elves again. Now, about the Sea and Water elves, i have something more to say: Meditor elves worship Calitha, who is said to have created the Pearl of Power as her test to become Immortal (GAZ9) Aquarendi worship Manwara (Protius) and Tallivai (Calitha), who has created for them the Frond of Life to become Immortal Now, how many artifacts has Calitha created in order to become Immortal???? Pearl and Frond? Or are they just the same thing? And btw, what is the Frond of Life?? How does it look like? About Verdier elves: their relic is the Carven Oak, that is from a long forgotten Immortal of Time. This is obviously Ordana's artifact and they worship Ordana (just to be precise, it's not a question) DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:12:23 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Belcadiz Ok folks, i have come to this conclusion about the Belcadiz, and i have to thank Jody Duncan and also Dave Keyser for their ideas: When the great earthquake created Ierendi and Minrothad isles, Verdier clan left the other elves living in the woods of nowadays Thyatis and joined the Meditor on the isle of Alfeisle. But some elves remained in the woods, namely the Vyalia clan, who became a very secluded clan (they felt bertrayed by their own bretherb and left alone)! When in 600 BC the Thyatians arrived, they gradually started to establish ties with the Vyalia and to trade. The kerendans were those who lived near the Vyalia Woods and as we all know, they gradually started to develop a different culture from their thyatian cousins, creating also their own dialect. 2 ethnic groups developed in Kerendas: the Ispans (Spanish culture) and the Kerendans (Italian culture). The Ispans had much more ties with the Elves and so a group of elves began to adopt their customs and intermarriage occurred. After about 7 hundred years, these flamenco elves had become so totally different from the pale Vyalia that they were treated like outsiders and strangers, and so they migrated to Glantri with some kerendans when the occasion was right, in AC 730! This explains how the Belcadiz clan was formed and why they are as they are (and also why they have no Tree of Life)! Now, after the AC 900 migration of the Ispans to the Savage Coast, there are a few Ispans left in Kerendas, and that is why they are not so well-known. DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:51:22 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotI On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >I just noticed another strange thing about WotI. The alphatian fight for Ixion and Alphatia (the immortals), what about the Shye-Lawr whose main immortal is Eiryndul, that is on Rad's side ? The Shiye-Lawr do not support the war against Glantri. Says so somewhere in WotI. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:44:32 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris At 14.21 04/04/97 -0300, you wrote: >I do have a solution for this problem. As someone mentioned, Synn was originally in Cestia and nobody knows for how long. It could be she is there for a small time. What if Synn was banished of entering the Prime or, maybe, physically confined to Cestia? She could have used the Idris cult to free herself from these predicament, either by opening a gate to her plane or convincing a party of her followers to go to Cestia and free her. That she has very strong mental powers is obvious from the way she has controlled Jaggar. I would even qualify her as an exalted being. What do you think? >Andre Well, personally i dunno know how she sould have done this. I mean, why did she go that far and didn't establish a cult in a near place (for example in Davania) Also, how could the Idris follower free her? And who confined her to Cestia? I suppose it was a strong Immortal: then how could she found a secret cult in Denagoth if she wasn't allowed to leave Cestia? If she left the isle, then this Immortal wasn't all that powerful and maybe there even wasn't the need to have a sect of followers to help her if she already was able to leave the isle... As you see, there are big holes in this theory. Stan and i are currently working on the Wendar-Denagoth project and we'll be ready with a timeline very soon, but we haven't yet decided about the real identity of Idris: so we're open to contributions from the list :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:34:02 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] My little discovered rumor >From: Dreamweaver Kitsune I talked to somene the other day who runs a game store here in town and according to him, TSRs plans are right now to begin printing April and January's products this month, May and February products next month, and June and March's products in June. Then hopefully they will be all caught up =) >The Dreamweaver Hope this might be interesting... DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 97 13:20:06 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) DM writes: >>Maybe gaining a Tree of Life was one of the reasons that Eyrindul lured the Shyie away... I don't think the animosity between the two elven deities extends to such an extent that one would deny support to any elves because they primarily follow the other, I highly doubt that the elven immortals are that petty. >Err, IIRC Ilsundal doesn't support Verdier nor Meditor elves, doesn't he? But they are elven clans, ain't they? So, there's something that keeps whispering in my mind that this Ilsundal-Eyrindul love you portray is not right... I still think that Eyrindul is a bit jealous of Ilsundal, and so having his Shiye worshipping the ToL under his nose would be IMO like... err.. Orthodox Christians worshipping a Catholic Icon (i do not know if u see my point) Yes, but the reason the Meditor and Verdier don't have a Tree Of Life is because they split from Ilsundals elves while Ilsundal was a mortal and had not yet created the Tree Of Life. The Shiye left AFTER Ilsundal had created them and so most likely already had a ToL before they were lured over by Eyrindul. >If u really want the Shiye to have a ToL, then they could have just taken a branch from one of the others ToL (as the Feadiel did) and then fleeing with that, but i still think there is 1 unaccounted tree (because Trueflower clan has one IMO!) Why? What is there to back this? There is something to back the Shiye having a ToL, but saying the TrueFlower clan has one is pure assumption. They could have one, but then that would account for the last missing tree... Saying that the TrueFlower have one of Mealiden's trees and the Shiye do not so there is still one missing... is a rather radical departure from the canon material.. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 15:27:18 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships In various posts during the past few weeks, several people have made claims that both Darokin and Karameikos have airships. Others have asked the question, but as of yet nobody has answered, so I'll ask again: Where is this information coming from? I've got just about everything published about Mystara, and I've never heard about airships from either country. Granted, my memory isn't the best around, so I might have forgotten some facts here or there. I would appreciate somebody giving me some references so that I can re-read those sections. Airships in either Darokin or Karameikos would certainly alter any campaign that I would be running in those areas. Thanks, Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:58:51 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: [Mystara] Question... >Elves have great longetivity, but this is, IMC, partly due to a different what is IMC... or IMO... Thanks - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 97 19:03:21 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] Mystara Webpage? My home page http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html has some Mystara content along with PC based D&D utilities. Good Hunting Alan Jones - ---------- From: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com on behalf of Chris Frisby Sent: 05 April 1997 02:37 To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Webpage? Is there a Mystara Webpage if so what is the sight thanks Friz ************************************************ * If you see this person get away from him and * * contact your local authorities immediately * ************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 23:00:46 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves At 18.11 06/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>Does someone remembers if in the Dragonlord trilogy, set around 490 AC, it mentions elvish cultures in southern Glantri ? >I believe it does, yes, though I'm not positive. I seem to recall that there were those who thought that Fox-Eyes (whatever his name is) might be an elf. >>Because, if Erewan went there in 700 AC and Belcadiz arrived in 730 AC, the only elvish settlement in 490 AC could be those of Sheyallia elves. >Not really. There were elves in Glantri eons ago, IIRC. The elves were the first to settle Glantri, following the destruction of Blackmoor. Yes, but then they were wiped out by the explosion of a Blackmoor device (except those who took shelter underground). ************** Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:19:58 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #38 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: c13fff82f95b96225ebd5c88faa12755 Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:27:17 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... >what is IMC... or IMO... "In My Campaign" and "In My Opinion" Other common ones: IMHO: "In My Humble Opinion" IIRC: "If I Remember Correctly" Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:15:03 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cover for Almanac >I've already received 2 offers for making maps for the new almanac. Micheal told me to ask for volunteers to add pictures, particularly a cover picture, for the new almanac. I've an excellent picture of a kobold made here in Argentina... I can send you if you want... - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:23:20 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz >cousins, creating also their own dialect. 2 ethnic groups developed in Kerendas: the Ispans (Spanish culture) and the Kerendans (Italian culture). >Now, after the AC 900 migration of the Ispans to the Savage Coast, there are >a few Ispans left in Kerendas, and that is why they are not so well-known. Is there some source other than DoE that implies that Kerendas is an Italian culture? My impression from DoE is that it was more based on old world Spain Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:31:19 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves . >Does someone remembers if in the Dragonlord trilogy, set around 490 AC, it >mentions elvish cultures in southern Glantri ? Because, if Erewan went there in 700 AC and Belcadiz arrived in 730 AC, the >only elvish settlement in 490 AC could be those of Sheyallia elves. The books mention, and the maps show, "Old Elven Holdings" at the site of Erewan and "New Elven Holdings" where Belcadiz is. There is nothing of particular importance about them, and I think it is best to just ignore these. They seem to be small mistakes, but they definitely do not refer to pre-Ilsundal elves because they are located in the exact spots where Erewan and Belcadiz now are. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:43:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >The books mention, and the maps show, "Old Elven Holdings" at the site of Erewan and "New Elven Holdings" where Belcadiz is. There is nothing of particular importance about them, and I think it is best to just ignore these. They seem to be small mistakes, but they definitely do not refer to pre-Ilsundal elves because they are located in the exact spots where Erewan and Belcadiz now are. Which doesn't in and of itself mean anything, IMO. If you look at the map, those particular spots in Glantri are the most suited to harboring Elven life; they are the most heavily forested and level areas (and, I'd argue, most temperate areas) to be found in the mountainous, rocky, and cold Glantri terrain. Seems to me any existing elves in Glantri would be likely to be found in this area. Not to mention that it is located as far from the humans as could conceivably be, given the nature of the terrain in Glantri. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:44:52 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: [Mystara] Question... MY>what is IMC... or IMO... MY>Thanks MY>-- MY>Sebastian Quiles MY>sq7s@dc.uba.ar In My Campaign...In My Opinion ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 00:52:56 -0400 From: Chris Frisby Subject: [Mystara] Statistical info on Dragon Immortals Im looking for statistical info on the Dragon immortals of Mystara, Opal Pearl Diamond and The Great One. Avatar/Mortal and Immortal forms Specificly Level Class AL WAL SY HP HD AC Attacks per round/ damage per attack STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA If this info is availble i would appreciate any and all help also i would like to know where this info can be found , suchas WotI, but im not currently able to get this info from a documented source but i intend to in the future. Thanks Friz ************************************************ * If you see this person get away from him and * * contact your local authorities immediately * ************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 22:04:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts I've been thinking about this off and on for some time now, but I finally decided I couldn't hold back. Here goes: Anyone besides me find the whole Gareth thing kind of fishy? I mean, what's with the "I am opposed to all Immortal interference with Mortals. Follow me and we will oppose this together." What the hell is that? When you think about it, who would really fall for this line of hooey? This guy is basically claiming that he should be the one Immortal who should be followed, because no Immortal should be allowed to interfere with mortals, but by the very act of proclaiming his existence, and having followers, and granting powers, isn't he doing the exact same thing he says shouldn't go on? And if you buy the WotI new rule about Immortals needing mortal followers, then his whole line of bs is even more suspect. Gareth is a salesman, or a politician, it seems to me. He is using a new tactic to gain new followers. No wonder Loki was smiling (PWA1012). On another note, WotI says Masauwu was Bagni Gullymaw's sponsor, but the timelines don't match up. Bagni Gullymaw lived c. 1290 BC, Masauwu was a Minrothad con artist. Given the short lifespans of Trolls, I think this idea is waaay off base. Maybe it's just me... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: >Anyone besides me find the whole Gareth thing kind of fishy? I mean, what's with the "I am opposed to all Immortal interference with Mortals. Follow me and we will oppose this together." I'm with you, but with the Mystara line discontinued, we would probably never know what the answer suppose to be, so each GM can play Gareth which ever way he wants, I guess. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:49:21 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Statistical info on Dragon Immortals >Im looking for statistical info on the Dragon immortals of Mystara, Opal Pearl Diamond and The Great One. Avatar/Mortal and Immortal forms Specificly >Level >Class >AL >WAL >SY >HP >HD >AC >Attacks per round/ damage per attack >STR >DEX >CON >INT >WIS >CHA >If this info is availble i would appreciate any and all help also i would like to know where this info can be found , suchas WotI, but im not currently able to get this info from a documented source but i intend to in the future. Thanks Most or all of this information is available in WotI and the Rules Cyclopedia. I do not have either accessory here with me, unfortunately, or I would be of more help to you. The Rules Cyclopedia has a standard monster description for each, but WotI gives more details and explains how to use these stats (i.e., mortal characters should never have a shot at killing an immortal). Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:39:40 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves >>The books mention, and the maps show, "Old Elven Holdings" at the site of >>Erewan and "New Elven Holdings" where Belcadiz is. There is nothing of particular importance about them, and I think it is best to just ignore these. They seem to be small mistakes, but they definitely do not refer to >>pre-Ilsundal elves because they are located in the exact spots where Erewan >>and Belcadiz now are. >Which doesn't in and of itself mean anything, IMO. If you look at the map, those particular spots in Glantri are the most suited to harboring Elven life; they are the most heavily forested and level areas (and, I'd argue, most temperate areas) to be found in the mountainous, rocky, and cold Glantri terrain. In Erewan, at least, much of the forest that exists was planted there by the elves. >Seems to me any existing elves in Glantri would be likely to be found in this area. Not to mention that it is located as far from the humans as could conceivably be, given the nature of the terrain in Glantri. In the case of the Old Elven Holdings, at least, they would have been established before the settlement of the rest of Glantri by the Flaem. This could probably be worked around, but it would confuse the issue of elven migrations even more and, IMHO, it would be easier to simply call this a small mistake in the trilogy. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 13:36:07 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz At 15.23 07/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >Is there some source other than DoE that implies that Kerendas is an Italian culture? My impression from DoE is that it was more based on old world Spain >Patrick The only other source i know is Dungeon Master's Biggest Treasure Hoard: Fantasy....:) In this case my own brain and imagination. I only made inferences: since there are Italian names and 3 ethnic groups, 1 clearly German (Hattian) and one Latin-Greek (Thyatian), then the Italians (and Spanish) culture is obviously the third one (Kerendans) Feel free to disagree but you won't change my mind :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:32:18 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: [Mystara] Thothia I have a question about the ruler of Thothia. In the Dawn of the Emperors, it says that the rulers are Pharaoh Ramenhotep XXIV (or something) and queen Aketheti, daughter of the Night Spider. The Pharaoh was the Night Spider's high priest. However, in PWAs, the Pharaoh is Ramenhotep XXV (the next number after the previous Pharaoh), and no mention of how he came to power, what happened to his predecessor and the worship of the Night Spider. Is there any info on this, or has anyone developed something? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:35:08 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: [Mystara] Rules Cyclopedia A question: which are the differences between the old rules (such as Basic and Expert sets) and the Rules Cyclopedia? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:18:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships I don't remember much about that thread, but I don't know any published sources that Karameikos and Darokin have airships. However, consider the instability in the region, and the new magic power obtained by Karameikos, it doesn't seem unreasonable that the first thing that the new school of magic will construct once it have some students with the sufficient ability is airships. And consider the central location and importance of Darakin, some of the new airships will probably be stationed there. Just a thought. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 11:32:53 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rules Cyclopedia >A question: which are the differences between the old rules (such as Basic and Expert sets) and the Rules Cyclopedia? >-Diego The Rules Cyclopedia collected the rules from the Basic, Expert, Companion, and Masters sets. It was produced by Aaron Alston who was at that time the main creator of OD&D materials. I like most of what Aaron produced, but the Cyclopedia shows too many signs of hasty work and sloppy editting for me. Eventually, I went back to using the older rules in session because there were too many errors introduced in the Cyclopedia. The Cyclopedia also added some minor mechanics (e.g. belt pouch added to equipment list) and incorporated some of the materials from the Gazetteer series and Hollow World set. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 10:41:22 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts At 10:04 PM 4/7/97 -0700, you wrote: >I've been thinking about this off and on for some time now, but I finally decided I couldn't hold back. Here goes: >Anyone besides me find the whole Gareth thing kind of fishy? I mean, what's with the "I am opposed to all Immortal interference with Mortals. Follow me and we will oppose this together." >What the hell is that? When you think about it, who would really fall for this line of hooey? This guy is basically claiming that he should be the one Immortal who should be followed, because no Immortal should be allowed to interfere with mortals, but by the very act of proclaiming his existence, and having followers, and granting powers, isn't he doing the exact same thing he says shouldn't go on? And if you buy the WotI new rule about Immortals needing mortal followers, then his whole line of bs is even more suspect. >Gareth is a salesman, or a politician, it seems to me. He is using a new tactic to gain new followers. No wonder Loki was smiling (PWA1012). Well, since we don't have further canon info on Gareth, we are free to speculate or adulterate as need be. When I ran WotI, I had one of my players be a cleric of Benekander/Rheddrian, and, with no knowledge of the future PWAs with Gareth, I cast him (Benekander) as a being who did not see himself as an Immortal, and did not want to be worshipped. IMC, there was a cult named the Order of the Owl which preached Immortal non-interference and a Mystara for Mystarans view. Benekander was the "Immortal patron" of this group, technically, but no one but the highest priests even knew he existed as a single being, and even with them the relationship was not one of god-to-priest but more like project supervisor-to-managers. The focus was the sociopolitical agenda, whereas for many Immortals the focus is THEMSELVES. All language used by the cult referred to the GROUP and GOALS, rather than a being. Thus, there were no followers, but members, no crusaders, but agents, and no one served or followed 'an Immortal,' but rather the Order of the Owl. For a while, even Benekander himself did not fully realize that he was an Immortal along the same lines as the other ones, but even afterwards, what exactly did that mean to him? Just because you have Immortal powers doesn't mean that you have to think, act, and have the goals of a "normal" Immortal. In any case, I like the idea that Gareth is actually Benekander, and that the goals are not so suspect. There is an IRONY, but not a contradiction in this behavior. By analogy, imagine a race of slaves and a race of "masters." A member of the race of masters, who is not a slave-owner himself, but merely of the same race and priviledged financial and social status, says to the slaves "Join me and together we will topple this slave system!" Just because this individual acts as an organizing and directing force, and just because he/she has the power and resources of a member of the race of masters, does not mean that he/she is a hypocrite and is being a slave-driver. The critical differences here, as in the D&D case, are 1) the working relationship between the Immortal and mortals (domination versus cooperation, tyranny versus leadership) and 2) the goals (self-serving versus the interests of all concerned). Of course an Immortal needs followers, but we are free to interpret "followers" however we wish, and I think that an Immortal who serves as the patron of a cause and can get people to follow that cause, and not himself per se, should still derive power from such mortal activity, because as an Immortal part of one becomes IS a cause, sphere of influence, or domain of the physical/psychological/sociological world. And, naturally, there is no binary division between a tyrannous, egotistical Immortal and one like Benekander/Gareth as I portray him. There can be Immortals who are worshipped but are very conscientious of their followers needs (e.g. Ilsundal) and other Immortals who demand respect but pay virtually no mind to followers' needs (e.g. Pflarr). Some may find a rotten scoundrel underlying Gareth more interesting, which is fair enough. If you like the idea of a benign Gareth as I do but don't want to miss out on the chance to have a big scam in your campaign either, might I suggest a REAL Gareth(/Benekander?) and an IMPOSTER who fears the real one's agenda and is posing as a Gareth that shows increasing signs of hypocrisy and ulterior motives (perhaps Loki?). 2 kopecs, /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Web: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ ~| Amateur conguero; Q(O+H)Q(G+W)AEEEBGKUS Mystaran; P75 on Ethernet |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:18:18 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 DM wrote: WWell, personally i dunno know how she sould have done this. I mean, why did ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ye seem t' be spickin' Scottish here, buy. ;-) >And who confined her to Cestia? Wasn't Synn on Oceania, not Cestia? Thorfinn. PS - I bet none of you can pronounce "buy" properly. ;-) ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:42:36 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thothia >I have a question about the ruler of Thothia. In the Dawn of the Emperors, it says that the rulers are Pharaoh Ramenhotep XXIV (or something) and queen Aketheti, daughter of the Night Spider. The Pharaoh was the Night Spider's high priest. However, in PWAs, the Pharaoh is Ramenhotep XXV (the next number after the previous Pharaoh), and no mention of how he came to power, what happened to his predecessor and the worship of the Night Spider. Is there any info on this, or has anyone developed something? >Aleksei The answers to these questions are in the module M5 Talons of Night. If your 30th level PCs can pull it off, Aketheti will die at their hands. And Pharaoh Ramenhotep XXIV dies under suspicious circumstances. M5 can be set in 1009 AC with some adjustments, as it involves brining peace between Thyatis and Alphatia. I believe the PWA said that Ramenhotep XXV had been in power since 1002 AC, however, but that can be changed to fit each campaign. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #38 **************************** Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:53:51 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #39 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 12a617b386519ea2254bbb8f2f3e4f3e mystara-digest Wednesday, April 9 1997 Volume 02 : Number 039 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:39:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >What the hell is that? When you think about it, who would really fall for this line of hooey? This guy is basically claiming that he should be the one Immortal who should be followed, because no Immortal should be allowed to interfere with mortals, but by the very act of proclaiming his existence, and having followers, and granting powers, isn't he doing the exact same thing he says shouldn't go on? And if you buy the WotI new rule about Immortals needing mortal followers, then his whole line of bs is even more suspect. I think you're pushing his anti-Immortal influence idea a bit too far. I always assumed he was against Immortal *manipulation* of mortals, as in what happened in WotI, rather than mortal worship or following of Immortals. I'm sure I must have read that somewhere, but I suppose it could just be a general idea I got from the PWAs. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:26:33 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elves again (Tree of Life) On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 DM wrote: EErr, IIRC Ilsundal doesn't support Verdier nor Meditor elves, doesn't he? But they are elven clans, ain't they? So, there's something that keeps whispering in my mind that this Ilsundal-Eyrindul love you portray is not right... I still think that Eyrindul is a bit jealous of Ilsundal, and so having his Shiye worshipping the ToL under his nose would be IMO like... err.. Orthodox Christians worshipping a Catholic Icon (i do not know if u see my point) There is an interesting point to note about the Sheyallia (that is Serpent Peninsula and Plain of Fire), Meditor and Verdier clans of elves. Champions of Mystara suggests that the Meditor and Verdier clans were once part of the Sheyallia, or at least left Ilsundal's migration with the Sheyallia to turn onto the Serpent Peninsula. It states that they didn't stay there because the weather was too hot and rainy for them. This is interesting because GAZ9 doesn't mention anything about this (the Sheyallia hadn't been invented yet though when it was written). Anyway, Ilsundal doesn't support any of these three clans, because they left his migration (and his influence) long before he settled and became Immortal. So it's not really the same idea as the Shiye Lawr elves at all. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:21:01 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 Diego Calugi wrote: DDeathwatch wrote: >>I still don't have any stats what-so-ever on those airships, can someone help me with this? >You should buy Champions of Mystara, where you will find the "Designer's Manual" (full of details about airships) and the dairy of the Princess Ark. Talking of which, you can get Champions of Mystara from the UK TSR Hobby Shop (mail order) for just THREE POUNDS!!! (It's usually 11.99) Needless to say, that's where I got mine just a few weeks ago. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:09:27 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships In a message dated 97-04-07 07:04:37 EDT, Diego writes: >>>Deathwatch wrote: >>>I still don't have any stats what-so-ever on those airships, can someone help me with this? >You should buy Champions of Mystara, where you will find the "Designer's Manual" (full of details about airships) and the dairy of the Princess Ark. Indeed. Here's a bit of cross-posting from AOL where the same question came up. Light Heldannic Warbird: Tonnage: 125 tons Hull Points: 90 AC: 8 Lift Capacity: 175 tons Cargo Capacity: 10 tons Air Speed: 360' (120') MF: 1/2 Length: 175', including warbird's "tail" Beam: 225', including warbird's "wings" Depth: 40' Hull: canvas and leather over wooden frame. Background: (...) Their warbirds are built by hand (...) Construction requires an army of shipbuilkders, carpenters, sailmakers, and other specialists, and takes roughly one day for every ton of the finished hull weighs. All Heldannic skyships are powered by a single Immortal artifact given to their Knights by their Immortal patron, Vanya. The artifact powers the Warbirds as though they were powered with *fly* spells. It provides lift for up to 5,000 tons at any time, thereby limiting the number of skyships the Knights can have in the air at one time. Several large skygems channel the artifact's power to the individual skyships in the Heldannic fleet. Each Warbird has a skygem housed in an altar in the ship's chapel, and each skygem confers unlimited range. If the gem is removed from its place, the ship immediately loses all flight capabilities. A light Warbird's crew consists on 9 non-fighting sailors to operate the sails, 24 elite marines, 6 knight overseers, and a captain. Hope this helps! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:00:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [Mystara] Kogolor GAZ Pt 1 Okay, started work on that Kogolor GAZ/HWR I was thinking about since the list began basically. Comments would be much appreciated. This is what I have so far. Kogolor GAZ so far: Gender Kogolor are more egalitarian than most Hollow World humanoids. Women can rise to the highest levels of the priesthood, of the household, of the clan. Men take an equal hand in raising children, which is never considered the sole duty of the mother. Women are trained in arms just as men are. Women handle all jobs in society, as do men, no profession being limited by gender. Still the society is more male-dominated than female, vestiges of how things worked when the Kogolor were in the Outer World. Marriage Kogolor marry for love generally. They practice endogamy, all marriages taking place within the clan. All legal marriages anyways. Marriages outside the clan can cause all sorts of troubles. Marriages are conducted seperate from religious law, usually presided over by a high-ranking member of the bride's clan. Marriages are usually lifelong, divorce being highly looked down upon. If someone divorces, they may become ostracized. Family Structure Kogolor Dwarves lived in extended families. Three or four generations commonly live in one household. Grandparents take an equal share with parents in raising children and elders in general run each household. The heads of household can be anyone, but it is often the senior member and if not him/her then a high religious or political official or the main wealth-earner in the house. The young are raised by the whole household but Kogolor young are greatly spoiled. Discipline is rather lax, children being given years to learn life's lessons on their own. Religion Kogolor worship Garal Glitterlode. He is praised for all that happens that is well. Parts of each family's earnings are sent to the nearest temple. Works of art are made in his name and honor. In return, he watches over the Kogolor and is a visible presence in daily life. Fred and Fredara have small followings but are not considered a protector of the Kogolor as Garal is and few families donate anything to his temples. The priests of Garal are mostly artisans but all care deeply for the society and the people. Kagyar was the original patron of the Kogolor and is still worshipped by a few, but he no longer grants these dwarves clerical powers as he has basically given up on the Kogolor as a whole. When Kagyar withdrew his gifts from the Kogolor, Garal Glitterlode stepped up in his place and started to protect the folk whom he was once one of. Places of note: Bergholm A small mining town in the south of the country. Most of the valuable ores used by the Kogolor in trade are extracted by the dwarves who live here. A rather wealthy town with the riches distributed evenly, it has the highest GP-per-capita of any Kogolor town. There is one dominant clan, which conducts most of the trade with Kolmstat, that being the Silverfeet. None of the other clans seem to resent this though, at least they will not admit to it. Ruud Ruud is a backwater village among major Kogolor settings. It and its accompanying fort, Fort Aath, were once vital in turning back eastern Krugel raids. With time, the conflict moved westwards and Aath fell into disuse. Currently it is a rather rusted-out place, scarcely manned by citizens of Ruud. The town itself has settled back into an agricultural lifestyle, content to work the hillsides and lead on with their quiet lives. Olarh A town that sprung up due to its proximity to two military bases more than for anything else, Olarh has developed into a fair-sized community. The people have a sense of security and have allowed themselves to build the basis for a place that may grow into a city with time. Several clans have taken residence in Olarh and annually small ones seem to arrive from the countryside to expan the city. Olarh may become a big part of Kogolor civilization in the near future. Kolmstat While listed as the capital of the Kogolor people, it is only assumed so by foreigners. The Kogolor do not have a unified government and as such have no national capital. Kolmstat IS the biggest city of the Kogolor's, the best defended and the wealthiest. Trade over the river has become profitable, with traders bypassing Krugel lands to reach Neathar traders. All the powerful clans of the Kogolor have members in Kolmstat and in times of crisis it is to this city that the people look for leadership. The city as a whole is much like a human one, just built on a smaller scale to accomadate the residents. Yoht Perhaps the lone 'troubled' Kogolor community. The town was built over one of the northernmost Borrower locales. As a result, the place has a tendency towards insanity and corruption not normally seen among the dwarven peoples. The atmosphere is notably different than in most dwarven communities and as a result most Kogolor avoid it by a wide distance. There are few smallish communities within reasonable range of Yoht and it is likely to remain so. A likely trouble spot in the future. >From megst19+@pitt.edu Thu Apr 3 20:54:07 1997 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:53:24 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman To: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Kog-3 Some more stuff for you to browse through..any suggestions on organisation would ve greatlyu appreciated: Social status There is no caste system in Kogolor society. There is a rather well-accepted system of cultural status though based on occupation. The most important members of Kogolor society are the Clanmasters/mistresses. After them are the Keepers of the Forge, followed by High Priest(esse)s of Garal Glitterlode. Heads of household are also given much prestige in the society. After that, there is no set correlation of prestige and occupation. The more skilled members at anything are appreciated more, as are the more elder members of the community. Most dwarves do not actively seek high status. They do not disdain it, nor do they indulge in it. Justice The Kogolor judicial system is fairly simple. Crimes like murder, rape, mass destruction of property, the study of magic or treachery against the state are all punishable by death. Less serious crimes are often punished by fines or required social service. The judgement of crimes is passed by a Klaurmann, a dwarf well-versed in the Kogolor legal tradition, who has spent 10 years studying and watching an established Klaurmann do his/her job. For the crimes that are punishable by death, a council of 3 established Klaurmenn preside over the case. Occasionally one of the students is allowed to judge a minor case, but they never sit on these councils. A female judge is also entitled a Klaurmann. The councils are called Desklaur. In certain situations, the judicial system is not used. In times of attack from an enemy nation or in times of mass civil unrest, the higher members of Kogolor society may take the law into their own hands with little threat of future repricussion(sp?). On military campaigns, the commanders are given a Klaurmann aid to help deal with any problems that may arise. Diet The Kogolor are not at all a vegitarian nation. They live off the meat of elks, mountain goats and similar animals of the mountains. This high-protein, high-calorie diet leads Kogolor to develop the strength and rotundness of the Outer World dwarves, a trait that they did not possess upon arrival in the Hollow World. Critters The areas of the Kogolor mountains are home to both highly fantastic beings and to normal, natural ones. For the mostpart, the areas close to the Kogolor cities, villages, towns and forts are restricted to the common animals that would be found in the mountains. The further and further you go from these inhabited areas, the greater the chance that a more mythical, fantastical being such as a wyvern or mountain giant or red dragon will be found. Deep Glaurants There is a Deep Glaurant city near the Kogolor territories. The presence of each group is unknown to the other. The Deep Glaurant city, Ylriark, is located several miles below the surface of SE Kogolor territory, much closer to the Hollow World than the Known. Several Kogolor expeditions have run across underground highways dug by the Deep Glaurants and the presence of a group of intelligent beings in that area is suspected. If the two communities ever discovered each other, violence is likely but not a definite possibility. The Deep Glaurants of the city are not much like the ones described in the Creature Catalog. Further from other peoples and beings, they have become herbivores and have developed a primitive culture, though nothing to match most humanoids of Mystara. Things I had planned on adding on: History (known) Skills Famous persona of Kogolor lands Foreign Relations Military(though no national one so I might skip it) Entertainment (arts mostly) Diet The Reagan and Bush administrations borrowed more money than all the previous US administrations combined. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:19:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships For those of us who don't have the address could you please post it. And also do they take American currency? -Diego On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >Talking of which, you can get Champions of Mystara from the UK TSR Hobby Shop (mail order) for just THREE POUNDS!!! (It's usually 11.99) >Thorfinn. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:08:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thothia In regard to Thothia, I vaguely recall there being a Master's level module in which the player characters are likely to kill the Night Spider, and I think that the Thothian Pharaoh is killed in that module as well (possibly by the Night Spider). Presumably the cult of the Night Spider would have ended after this adventure. I will have to dig out the module to confirm this, unless of course somebody beats me to it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:07:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts In a message dated 97-04-08 17:56:31 EDT, dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu (David 'Azure' Leland) writes: << Of course an Immortal needs followers, but we are free to interpret "followers" however we wish, and I think that an Immortal who serves as the patron of a cause and can get people to follow that cause, and not himself per se, should still derive power from such mortal activity, because as an Immortal part of one becomes IS a cause, sphere of influence, or domain of the physical/psychological/sociological world. >> I think that is exactly how the anti-clerical Rad works, if I am not mistaken.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:23:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >I think you're pushing his anti-Immortal influence idea a bit too far. I always assumed he was against Immortal *manipulation* of mortals, as in what happened in WotI, rather than mortal worship or following of Immortals. I'm sure I must have read that somewhere, but I suppose it could just be a general idea I got from the PWAs. Then again, his mortal followers have been led into many a confrontation already, with few signs of opposition letting up. If he had just left them alone, and pursued his designs against Immortal influence among the Immortals, he need not get any mortals in the line of fire at all. :) Point taken, and understood. There is definitely room for interpretation here, as others have pointed out. I just wanted to make the point that I, for one, am skeptical of this sort of behavior, and that depending on how people want to run things, Gareth could be either benign or malevolent, easily. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 05:28:47 -0600 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thothia I have no idea of what is the official version. IMC the following thing happened: Rathanos, which of course has quite an interest in Thothia was not in the least happy with the situation. So after WOT he decided to remove this bothersome guy who was impersonating a cleric of his faith. Since promoting a civil war when Thyatis was just making progress in retaking the Isle of Dawn. The coup had to be well planned and taken by people who, if failed, could not be used as a desestabilizing factor in the country, they had to be expendable since the possibility odf success was low and had to be willing to follow a blind plan on faith to rathanos alone so, if captured, could not tell anything about a conspiration but his or her own action. In comes a player of mine with a fighter -Xarak- who is completely Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:53:51 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #39 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 12a617b386519ea2254bbb8f2f3e4f3e devoted to Rathanos (sometimes more than a cleric). Rathanos tells him to go looking for the Tablets of Rathanos, where the order of the flame, a new fighting order of Rathanos, is described. Off goes this guy with his friends to fiend the tablets. After some adventures, the pharaoh is able to identify that this guys have something to do with his downfall, has the head priest of rathanos at Edairo assasinated and then makes them guilty. Half the party is captured and taken to the pharoah for "questioning". The other half finds the tablets and start forging the oreder in the great escarpemnt. Just as war with Thyatis starts, Ratahnos bides the head of the order (Xarak) to bring the order to Edairo. he has a powerful cleric place certain spells on him which alter their appereance and make them immune to Esp, truesight and like magics. The problem is it also makes them immune against most sorts of clerical magic (including healing), the enchantment lasts until the character pronounces his name. They arrive in Edairo, present the order as a holy gift from Rathanos for the battle to come and the Pharoh has to meet the commander of the force. With the help of Gomez, a Darokian emigree who is the royal butler (and cares nothing of Rathanos or the Pharaoh, but a lot about Thotia) Xarak finally meets the Pharaoh and assesinates him. His consort escapes in the fight. Xarak and his friends then escape from the throne room (again aided by Gomez) and resume their normal appereances. Then they help recocer some artifacts so that the new pharaoh can claim the throne (see the module Temple, tower & Tomb). - -- "I'm caught in a dream And my dream's come true." I was born to love you. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:02:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [Mystara] Kog-3 (fwd) Social status There is no caste system in Kogolor society. There is a rather well-accepted system of cultural status though based on occupation. The most important members of Kogolor society are the Clanmasters/mistresses. After them are the Keepers of the Forge, followed by High Priest(esse)s of Garal Glitterlode. Heads of household are also given much prestige in the society. After that, there is no set correlation of prestige and occupation. The more skilled members at anything are appreciated more, as are the more elder members of the community. Most dwarves do not actively seek high status. They do not disdain it, nor do they indulge in it. Justice The Kogolor judicial system is fairly simple. Crimes like murder, rape, mass destruction of property, the study of magic or treachery against the state are all punishable by death. Less serious crimes are often punished by fines or required social service. The judgement of crimes is passed by a Klaurmann, a dwarf well-versed in the Kogolor legal tradition, who has spent 10 years studying and watching an established Klaurmann do his/her job. For the crimes that are punishable by death, a council of 3 established Klaurmenn preside over the case. Occasionally one of the students is allowed to judge a minor case, but they never sit on these councils. A female judge is also entitled a Klaurmann. The councils are called Desklaur. In certain situations, the judicial system is not used. In times of attack from an enemy nation or in times of mass civil unrest, the higher members of Kogolor society may take the law into their own hands with little threat of future repricussion(sp?). On military campaigns, the commanders are given a Klaurmann aid to help deal with any problems that may arise. Diet The Kogolor are not at all a vegitarian nation. They live off the meat of elks, mountain goats and similar animals of the mountains. This high-protein, high-calorie diet leads Kogolor to develop the strength and rotundness of the Outer World dwarves, a trait that they did not possess upon arrival in the Hollow World. Critters The areas of the Kogolor mountains are home to both highly fantastic beings and to normal, natural ones. For the mostpart, the areas close to the Kogolor cities, villages, towns and forts are restricted to the common animals that would be found in the mountains. The further and further you go from these inhabited areas, the greater the chance that a more mythical, fantastical being such as a wyvern or mountain giant or red dragon will be found. Deep Glaurants There is a Deep Glaurant city near the Kogolor territories. The presence of each group is unknown to the other. The Deep Glaurant city, Ylriark, is located several miles below the surface of SE Kogolor territory, much closer to the Hollow World than the Known. Several Kogolor expeditions have run across underground highways dug by the Deep Glaurants and the presence of a group of intelligent beings in that area is suspected. If the two communities ever discovered each other, violence is likely but not a definite possibility. The Deep Glaurants of the city are not much like the ones described in the Creature Catalog. Further from other peoples and beings, they have become herbivores and have developed a primitive culture, though nothing to match most humanoids of Mystara. Things I had planned on adding on: History (known) Skills Famous persona of Kogolor lands Foreign Relations Military(though no national one so I might skip it) Entertainment (arts mostly) Diet The Reagan and Bush administrations borrowed more money than all the previous US administrations combined. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:20:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts On Tue, 8 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: ><< Of course an Immortal needs followers, but we are free to interpret ""followers" however we wish, and I think that an Immortal who serves as the patron of a cause and can get people to follow that cause, and not himself per se, should still derive power from such mortal activity, because as an Immortal part of one becomes IS a cause, sphere of influence, or domain of the physical/psychological/sociological world. >> >I think that is exactly how the anti-clerical Rad works, if I am not mistaken.... I don't think that this was an issue when the Glantri gazetteer was written since the Immortal rules at that time (the gold box) had no reference to a need for followers. In trying to fit it with WotI, however, that's definitely how I would see it. - --David Leland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 02:58:07 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships Thorfinn Tait wrote: >On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 Diego Calugi wrote: DDDeathwatch wrote: >>>I still don't have any stats what-so-ever on those airships, can someone help me with this? >>You should buy Champions of Mystara, where you will find the "Designer's Manual" (full of details about airships) and the dairy of the Princess Ark. >Talking of which, you can get Champions of Mystara from the UK TSR Hobby Shop (mail order) for just THREE POUNDS!!! (It's usually 11.99) >Needless to say, that's where I got mine just a few weeks ago. >Thorfinn. >===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he hhimself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk >===================================================================== Are their any other Gazateers you can order through the "U.K. TSR Hobby?" By the way I am from Savannah, and there is a hobby shop here that is still selling a few of the old gazateers. These are originals in mint condition. 1. Shadow Elves 2. Ylarium (spelling) 3. Northern Reaches 4. Dawn of the Emperors 5. Darokin There may be maybe some others, but I'm not sure. If any one is interested I will find out and send the store's address and phone number. Also, I am looking for these gazateers and adventures. Gaz 1 Kingdom of Karameikos Gaz 5 Elves of Alfheim DA3 City of the Gods X10 Red Arrow, Black Shield X11 Saga of the Shadow Lord If any one knows where I can get these please let me know. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 03:05:52 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: >>Anyone besides me find the whole Gareth thing kind of fishy? I mean, what's with the "I am opposed to all Immortal interference with Mortals. Follow me and we will oppose this together." >I'm with you, but with the Mystara line discontinued, we would probably never know what the answer suppose to be, so each GM can play Gareth which ever way he wants, I guess. >John Yu I am new to the list, but I think Gareth sounds alot like the immortal Beneker (speling). After all he was opposed to all immortals throughtout the entire WoI adventure. This would also be a perfect way for a new immortal to attract followers from mortals who had seen their families and countries destroyed by a world war influenced by immortals. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:43:36 +1000 (EST) From: GRIFFITHS Brett Johnathan Subject: [Mystara] Old Modules Greetings all, I am new to this list so plz forgive me if this is a SQ, but how can I get hold of old, out of print modules that were published for D&D? You see, I have had X10, Red Arrow, Black Shield for years, but haven't wanted to run it until I have put the PC's thru X4 and X5, which would serve as an excellent introduction to the Master(and Sind). As it is I have searched everywhere for those two modules in particular, with no success. I can't say I've been able to find many others, either, especially Companion series ones. If anyone could tell me how to get hold of these two modules (X4 & X5), or any other out of print ones, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Brett. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:21:30 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Re: Cestia At 04:18 PM 4/8/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 DM wrote: WWWell, personally i dunno know how she sould have done this. I mean, why did ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Ye seem t' be spickin' Scottish here, buy. ;-) Ne'er been to Scotland, buy, but 't'll be my next stop up the Channel, ok? ;) (actually i've been to Beamish, where there are a lot of Scots, but it's not really Scotland...) >>And who confined her to Cestia? >Wasn't Synn on Oceania, not Cestia? Mmhh... you make doubts arise in my mind now... but no, i think 't was Cestia, definitely (or at least, until someone doesn't prove it to be false) >Thorfinn. >PS - I bet none of you can pronounce "buy" properly. ;-) BUY.... i think i pronounced it correctly... eh eh :) DM (the laughing fool) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:25:16 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Old Modules At 05:43 PM 4/9/97 +1000, you wrote: >Greetings all, >I am new to this list so plz forgive me if this is a SQ, but how can I get hold of old, out of print modules that were published for D&D? You see, I have had X10, Red Arrow, Black Shield for years, but haven't wanted to run it until I have put the PC's thru X4 and X5, which would serve as an excellent introduction to the Master(and Sind). As it is I have searched everywhere for those two modules in particular, with no success. I can't say I've been able to find many others, either, especially Companion series ones. Gee, that's really incredible! Everyone here seems to be desperately looking for X10 and then you come saying you have it, but u don't have played it out cause u lack X4 and X5 !!! Whereas they're one of the easiest thing to find!!! If that's not fate's joke tell what's it? Anyway, try: www.dragontrove.com or e-mail to jtwombat@diac.com they're both reliable DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:16:44 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thothia At 04:32 PM 4/8/97 +0300, you wrote: >I have a question about the ruler of Thothia. In the Dawn of the Emperors, it says that the rulers are Pharaoh Ramenhotep XXIV (or something) and queen Aketheti, daughter of the Night Spider. The Pharaoh was the Night Spider's high priest. However, in PWAs, the Pharaoh is Ramenhotep XXV (the next number after the previous Pharaoh), and no mention of how he came to power, what happened to his predecessor and the worship of the Night Spider. Is there any info on this, or has anyone developed something? >Aleksei mmmh... as others on the list have pointed out, M5 deals with this matter, for it pits PCs against Aketheeti, Ramenhotep X (the mystic-cleric-vampire... the really nastiest thing in the world... it sucked 10 levels to one of my PCs!) and the Night Spider. Personally, i played it after CM1 and it went really good. PWA suggests Ramenhotep XXIV passed his throne to his son in 1003, but i had the thing occur in autumn 1002 - early winter 1003, so i think i've been lucky enough to foresee the rules in PWA..eh eh... It is easy IMHO to play first CM1 and then M5: you only have to direct it this way. -Let your players guide the armies of Thyatis and Alphatia, or better their own armies, in the war depicted in CM1 (which to me is a pale anticipation of what will happen in WotI), but do not let any of them win the war. -PCs and Empires will reach a stalemate and they will agree to have a meeting to discuss the Norwold Affair. Both empires also acknowledge that the Isle of Dawn is another "hot region" and they agree to talk also about its ownership (this obviously requires the mediation of the PCs in the negotiations to spare human lives) -the Peace Conference will be held at Helskir and Norwold as well as Isle of Dawn rulers will attend -Stage M5 from this point on, only the main drive will now be to reach the peace for both Norwold, the Isle and the 2 empires (Ericall will ask PCs who side with him to search in the city of Edairo to find clues about the true ownership of Norwold and Thincol will do the same with Thyatian loyalists PCs) At the end of my campaign, the Night Spider, Aketheeti and Ramenhotep X were dead, Thincol and Eriadne safe back on Mystara and Isle of Dawn an independent region, while Norwold was divided into independent states with a loose alliance between them, and the Alphatian and Thyatian Protectorates were established to keep a balance of power (obviously each faction sided again with Thyatis and Alphatia in the 1005-1009 war, including the Dawn and Norwold nations) Just a possible scenario DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 12:16:42 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: [Mystara] Re: Old Modules >Greetings all, >I am new to this list so plz forgive me if this is a SQ, but how can I get hold of old, out of print modules that were published for D&D? You see, I have had X10, Red Arrow, Black Shield for years, but haven't wanted to run it until I have put the PC's thru X4 and X5, which would serve as an excellent introduction to the Master(and Sind). As it is I have searched everywhere for those two modules in particular, with no success. I can't say I've been able to find many others, either, especially Companion series ones. Hallo Brett, I'm writing you this e-mail outside the Mystara Mailing List. If you need X4 and X5, you should check immediately http://www.sagesguild.com/. Last time I visited The Sages' Guild, both modules were avaible! One last thing, I have your problem too. I have X4 and X5 (italian versions), but not X10! Do you sell it? I could buy even a copy! Or we could do an exchange, I have many modules and Gazs. Regards, - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 18:23:40 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships At 16:21 8-04-97 +0100, Thorfinn Tait wrote: OOn Sun, 6 Apr 1997 Diego Calugi wrote: DDDeathwatch wrote: >>>I still don't have any stats what-so-ever on those airships, can someone help me with this? >>You should buy Champions of Mystara, where you will find the "Designer's Manual" (full of details about airships) and the dairy of the Princess Ark. >Talking of which, you can get Champions of Mystara from the UK TSR Hobby Shop (mail order) for just THREE POUNDS!!! (It's usually 11.99) >Needless to say, that's where I got mine just a few weeks ago. 3 pounds? Cool...where can you contact them? Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 18:26:09 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships At 17:09 8-04-97 -0400, TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: IIn a message dated 97-04-07 07:04:37 EDT, Diego writes: >>>>Deathwatch wrote: >>>>I still don't have any stats what-so-ever on those airships, can someone help me with this? >>You should buy Champions of Mystara, where you will find the "Designer's Manual" (full of details about airships) and the dairy of the Princess Ark. >Indeed. Here's a bit of cross-posting from AOL where the same question came up. >Light Heldannic Warbird: >Tonnage: 125 tons >Hull Points: 90 >AC: 8 >Lift Capacity: 175 tons >Cargo Capacity: 10 tons >Air Speed: 360' (120') >MF: 1/2 >Length: 175', including warbird's "tail" Beam: 225', including warbird's "wings" >Depth: 40' >Hull: canvas and leather over wooden frame. >Background: (...) Their warbirds are built by hand (...) Construction requires an army of shipbuilkders, carpenters, sailmakers, and other specialists, and takes roughly one day for every ton of the finished hull weighs. >All Heldannic skyships are powered by a single Immortal artifact given to their Knights by their Immortal patron, Vanya. The artifact powers the Warbirds as though they were powered with *fly* spells. It provides lift for up to 5,000 tons at any time, thereby limiting the number of skyships the Knights can have in the air at one time. SSeveral large skygems channel the artifact's power to the individual skyships in the Heldannic fleet. Each Warbird has a skygem housed in an altar in the ship's chapel, and each skygem confers unlimited range. If the gem is removed from its place, the ship immediately loses all flight capabilities. AA light Warbird's crew consists on 9 non-fighting sailors to operate the sails, 24 elite marines, 6 knight overseers, and a captain. >Hope this helps! :) >Bruce Heard Yeah...this kinda gives me the idea of what is on the ship and how they fly...need to get the box though... Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #39 **************************** Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:17:43 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #40 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 705144fa8c8b1bbf954b31a701dbd32a mystara-digest Thursday, April 10 1997 Volume 02 : Number 040 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:24:04 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Western Karameikos Hi everyone. I have had a couple of requests for the work I have done on describing the Cruth Lowlands of Western Karameikos. I described the Cruth Lowlands in much more detail than was given in either GAZ1 or K:KoA, very loosely basing the area on by Lloyd Alexander: basically the region is mainly populated by tons of monsters and small, isolated Traladaran villages. The Traladarans are brutally dominated by "The Fury of the West," the military unit based at Riverfork Keep under the command of a harsh and ruthless Thyatian commander who was, until recently, accepting bribes from the Black Eagle Baron to secretly allow the Black Eagle troops to terrorize the natives. Any outside interference is considered by the commander to be grounds for speedy execution, so Stefan remains largely ignorant of these offenses. I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in seeing this. Should I post it to the list? Perhaps the next almanac could even include the account of an investigation into these atrocities:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 16:17:09 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Old Modules On Tue, 08 Apr 1997 12:16:42 +0200 Diego Calugi writes: >One last thing, I have your problem too. I have X4 and X5 (italian versions), but not X10! Do you sell it? I could buy even a copy! Or we could do an exchange, I have many modules and Gazs. >Regards, >-Diego I would be willing to swap my copy of X10 for a copy of X11 if anyone out there is interested. I'm not a collecter, you see. I'm just someone who likes to play the game.... nbamba@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 16:17:09 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thothia >PWA..eh eh... It is easy IMHO to play first CM1 and then M5: you only have >to direct it this way. >-Let your players guide the armies of Thyatis and Alphatia, or better their >own armies, in the war depicted in CM1 (which to me is a pale anticipation >of what will happen in WotI), but do not let any of them win the war. Actually, I think M5 is way too tough for PC's of that low level. But I found that it follows M2 (a great adventure) very nicely, in a manner similar to what you suggested >Just a possible scenario >DM nbamba@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:27:29 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rules Cyclopedia >A question: which are the differences between the old rules (such as Basic and Expert sets) and the Rules Cyclopedia? >-Diego The Rule Cyclopedia is on one book (more practical) and you have somes new spells... no much more - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:42:30 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Cestia On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 DM wrote: NNe'er been to Scotland, buy, but 't'll be my next stop up the Channel, ok? ;) :-) You did that remarkably well. But I still bet you don't know how to pronounce "buy", even if you do seem to know what it means. :-) >(actually i've been to Beamish, where there are a lot of Scots, but it's not really Scotland...) I've been there too, when I was little. As you say, not quite Scotland though. >>>And who confined her to Cestia? >>Wasn't Synn on Oceania, not Cestia? >Mmhh... you make doubts arise in my mind now... but no, i think 't was Cestia, definitely (or at least, until someone doesn't prove it to be false) I am Thorfinn Skullsplitter, Bringer of Doubts. Kneel before my mighty hammer! (Oops, seem to be crossing some wires here.) I think it's Dragon 164 or something that it's in. Maybe earlier. >>Thorfinn. >>PS - I bet none of you can pronounce "buy" properly. ;-) >BUY.... i think i pronounced it correctly... eh eh :) :-) Yes you did if you somehow managed to read my bad attempt to write it properly. Problem with dialect words is that they don't tend to have a set spelling... >DM (the laughing fool) What a strange e-mail I just wrote. I apologise to everyone who was disturbed by it. It's my Viking ancestry showing through. :-) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:16:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos Personally I think that this is a very interesting setting and I would be happy to see it posted. I have the area sketched out for my campaign and would be interested in a different view. Also, where is the almanac that is being written and where could I find it. I am interested in how the story has unfolded since WotI. -Diego On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >Hi everyone.> I have had a couple of requests for the work I have done on describing the Cruth Lowlands of Western Karameikos. I described the Cruth Lowlands in much more detail than was given in either GAZ1 or K:KoA, very loosely basing the area on by Lloyd Alexander: basically the region is mainly populated by tons of monsters and small, isolated Traladaran villages. The Traladarans are brutally dominated by "The Fury of the West," the military unit based at Riverfork Keep under the command of a harsh and ruthless Thyatian commander who was, until recently, accepting bribes from the Black Eagle Baron to secretly allow the Black Eagle troops to terrorize the natives. Any outside interference is considered by the commander to be grounds for speedy execution, so Stefan remains largely ignorant of these offenses. I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in seeing this. Should I post it to the list? Perhaps the next almanac could even include the account of an investigation into these atrocities:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:39:36 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: [Mystara] Vyalia Elves I can't believe in all the heated debates we've had over elves, elven history and the Trees Of Life, that one obvious reference was completely overlooked. Today I was going through the DotE books and lo and behold came across a section in the Thyatis book detailing the Vyalia elves. Hrm. As it turns out there are several clans in the Vyalia territory and they *DO* have Trees of Life. I would propose that the Vyalia are the missing clan from the Mealiden migration, who broke up into smaller clans in their isolation. Consequently, they made daughter trees of the original they brought from the Sylvan Realm. I don't know why any of us overlooked this but we did, and it's going to require me to make some changes in my elven history, and invalidates the proposed origins of the Belcadiz elves... Seems they are still a mystery... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 04:09:49 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] TSR Hobby Shop UK As several people have requested the contact details for TSR's UK mail order service, I have decided to go one step further and also post a list of D&D "Classics" they have for sale at a substantial discount. Please note that this list is a year old, so some of these products may not be available still. However the prices ARE still valid (I checked). The address for writing to them is "TSR HOBBY SHOP" and the rest of the address is given on every D&D product on the right opposite the American address (the Cambridge one). You can phone them on 01223 212517, fax 01223 248066 in the UK, or 44-1223-212517, fax 44-1223-248066 international. They accept ACCESS and VISA credit cards (and hence foreign currency I would expect), but I should warn you that postage to anywhere outside the UK is a little steep if you want more than 20 pounds of stuff, and ridiculous if you live outside Europe and want over 10 pounds of stuff. If necessary, it would be possible for me to send for them for you and forward the item to you, preferably in exchange for some other D&D product (I need lots of things still). That way the postage from TSR will be nice and cheap, and the international postage will be cheaper than TSR's (I think). Besides, if we do a trade then we will both be paying postage to each other anyway. On with the list... Dungeons & Dragons Game 7.99 Champions of Mystara 2.99 IM1 The Immortal Storm 0.50 IM3 The Best of Intentions 0.50 M5 Talons of Night 0.50 PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk 1.25 PC2 Top Ballista 1.50 DDA2 Legions of Thyatis 0.50 HWA1 Nightwail 0.99 HWA2 Nightrage 0.99 HWA3 Nightstorm 0.99 HWR2 Kingdoms of Nithia 0.99 HWR3 The Milenian Empire 1.25 HWQ1 The Milenian Sceptre 0.99 CMR1 Characters and Monsters 1.50 (Cardboard stand-ups) And that's it. Please tell me if you get anything, I'd be interested to know. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:29:10 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR Hobby Shop UK Thorfinn Tait wrote: >As several people have requested the contact details for TSR's UK mail order service, I have decided to go one step further and also post a list of D&D "Classics" they have for sale at a substantial discount. Please note that this list is a year old, so some of these products may not be available still. However the prices ARE still valid (I checked). >The address for writing to them is "TSR HOBBY SHOP" and the rest of the address is given on every D&D product on the right opposite the American address (the Cambridge one). >You can phone them on 01223 212517, fax 01223 248066 in the UK, or 44-1223-212517, fax 44-1223-248066 international. >They accept ACCESS and VISA credit cards (and hence foreign currency I would expect), but I should warn you that postage to anywhere outside the UK is a little steep if you want more than 20 pounds of stuff, and ridiculous if you live outside Europe and want over 10 pounds of stuff. >If necessary, it would be possible for me to send for them for you and forward the item to you, preferably in exchange for some other D&D product (I need lots of things still). That way the postage from TSR will be nice and cheap, and the international postage will be cheaper than TSR's (I think). Besides, if we do a trade then we will both be paying postage to each other anyway. >On with the list... >Dungeons & Dragons Game 7.99 >Champions of Mystara 2.99 >IM1 The Immortal Storm 0.50 >IM3 The Best of Intentions 0.50 >M5 Talons of Night 0.50 >PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk 1.25 >PC2 Top Ballista 1.50 >DDA2 Legions of Thyatis 0.50 >HWA1 Nightwail 0.99 >HWA2 Nightrage 0.99 >HWA3 Nightstorm 0.99 >HWR2 Kingdoms of Nithia 0.99 >HWR3 The Milenian Empire 1.25 >HWQ1 The Milenian Sceptre 0.99 >CMR1 Characters and Monsters 1.50 >(Cardboard stand-ups) >And that's it. Please tell me if you get anything, I'd be interested to know. >Thank you kindly, >Thorfinn. >===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he hhimself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk >===================================================================== I wrote an E-mail saying you could get some of the older modules in Savannah, Ga. Well, I'm almost positive that everyone of the modules listed above are sold there. I know most of those are sold there, though. Again if any one is interested I will send the store's name, address, and phone number. I will also post a full list of all modules available there as soon as I get a chance to go home and look. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 02:33:43 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Old Modules >At 05:43 PM 4/9/97 +1000, you wrote: >>Greetings all, >>I am new to this list so plz forgive me if this is a SQ, but how can I get hold of old, out of print modules that were published for D&D? You see, I have had X10, Red Arrow, Black Shield for years, but haven't wanted to run it until I have put the PC's thru X4 and X5, which would serve as an excellent introduction to the Master(and Sind). As it is I have searched everywhere for those two modules in particular, with no success. I can't say I've been able to find many others, either, especially Companion series ones. >Gee, that's really incredible! Everyone here seems to be desperately looking for X10 and then you come saying you have it, but u don't have played it out cause u lack X4 and X5 !!! Whereas they're one of the easiest thing to find!!! If that's not fate's joke tell what's it? Anyway, try: I was in the same situantion, I've found X10 but not x4 and x5 (only the last in Italian, and both in german... but I didn't got them because of the lenguage) and I 've DM'ed with the trick of "future travel" to the year 1005 (like it's said in WotI) ... when the player will play this module (WotI) I will make an obvious way to show them than a identical party are in Mystara making the x10 adventure... Pd: I've found x10 in an old book store in paris and the x5 italian version in Rome (near the Coliseum) ... maybe if you fly to there you will find this books! :) - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:05:14 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos >I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in seeing this. Should I post it to the list? Perhaps the next almanac could even include the account of an investigation into these atrocities:) Patrick I could use some details of the Cruth Lowlands of Western Karameikos, too. I'd like to see them on the MML. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:04:05 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR Hobby Shop UK >I wrote an E-mail saying you could get some of the older modules in Savannah, Ga. Well, I'm almost positive that everyone of the modules listed above are sold there. I know most of those are sold there, though. Again if any one is interested I will send the store's name, address, and phone number. I will also post a full list of all modules available there as soon as I get a chance to go home and look. >Jay >John7999@frontiernet.net Yes, both the address and the list of items available would be useful. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:01:50 +0100 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Halflings Has any of you never thought that perhaps 300.000 xp are too much for halflings in their Attack Ranks, considering that they: 1. have only 8 HD and very few HP 2. have no special abilities like the magic elves have 3. cannot reach the highest attack ranks as dwarves (whose xp are much lower) do 4. yes, they have 2 special defenses, but that's all they've got (1 more than elves or dwarves or gnomes, for that matter) Don't you think that TSR designers had something against poor halflings when they designed them? They're the only class that is useful only at low levels of play (levels 1-4, then they're crap!)... Now i understand why my players hate them and why everyone seems to underestimate, poor cute little halflings (GAZ8 did a great job in creating Master halflings -thanks Ed Greenwood-, but they're restricted to the 5 Shires) BTW: did u know that only 100 halfling clans can exist at a time? Look in GAZ8! DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:14:32 +0100 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] MOrient and tanagoro I hope you've taken into account the Tanagoro race in your MOrient project, cause HW map places the biggest and oldest Tanagoro culture right in southern Skothar, where i think Morient is staged... Just to remind u... DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:51:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Halflings This is the reason I suggest giving halfling thief skill a while back. I think at high level, halfling should be better than human thief at skill like move silently and hide in shadow, especially in the wildness. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:19:24 +0500 (GMT) From: Oscar Romero Meiseles Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos Yes, I'm interested on it, I'd love to read that. On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >Hi everyone. >I have had a couple of requests for the work I have done on describing the Cruth Lowlands of Western Karameikos. I described the Cruth Lowlands in much more detail than was given in either GAZ1 or K:KoA, very loosely basing the area on by Lloyd Alexander: basically the region is mainly populated by tons of monsters and small, isolated Traladaran villages. The Traladarans are brutally dominated by "The Fury of the West," the military unit based at Riverfork Keep under the command of a harsh and ruthless Thyatian commander who was, until recently, accepting bribes from the Black Eagle Baron to secretly allow the Black Eagle troops to terrorize the natives. Any outside interference is considered by the commander to be grounds for speedy execution, so Stefan remains largely ignorant of these offenses. I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in seeing this. Should I post it to the list? Perhaps the next almanac could even include the account of an investigation into these atrocities:) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:17:43 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #40 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 705144fa8c8b1bbf954b31a701dbd32a >Patrick ********************************************************************** * OSCAR ROMERO MEISELES * * Researcher Assistant * * University of los Andes * * E-mail: os-romer@isis.uniandes.edu.co * ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:56:03 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vyalia Elves At 18.39 09/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >I can't believe in all the heated debates we've had over elves, elven history and the Trees Of Life, that one obvious reference was completely overlooked. Today I was going through the DotE books and lo and behold came across a section in the Thyatis book detailing the Vyalia elves. Hrm. As it turns out there are several clans in the Vyalia territory and they *DO* have Trees of Life. I would propose that the Vyalia are the missing clan from the Mealiden migration, who broke up into smaller clans in their isolation. Consequently, they made daughter trees of the original they brought from the Sylvan Realm. I agree. Good work. >I don't know >why any of us overlooked this Personally I overlooked that because I don't think that DotE is a very good product and I always doubt I can find there the info I'm looking for :) >but we did, and it's going to require me to make some changes in my elven history, and invalidates the proposed origins of the Belcadiz elves... Seems they are still a mystery... New idea. Somewhere it says that they come from the southern continent or the Thanegiot Archipelago. The Kerendans too come from the southern continent. Do you see my point? The adopted the spanish culture from the Espan/Kerendans when these still lived in the area now known as Hinterlands, then they later moved to Glantri. This is just an idea, I've not checked the actual dates of migrations, so I can be totally wrong. A better idea is to ask someone of Clan Hierydyls, maybe they can help you :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:38:00 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR It's true ... here is the press release. I wanted you all to hear it from here as soon as possible. See the web site for more info (there isn't much at this time). This topic is probably off-topic for several of these lists, so please take any discussion to private email if at all possible Good gaming! - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://www.tsrinc.com WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC. April 10, 1997 (Renton, Wash.)--Wizards of the Coast Inc. and TSR Inc., the two leaders of the adventure gaming industry, announced today that a letter of intent has been signed by both parties for Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR Inc. The transaction is expected to be completed in May, 1997. Wizards of the Coast is the publisher of the world's best-selling trading card game, Magic: The Gathering(R). Lake Geneva, Wis.-based TSR Inc. is the publisher of the world-renowned adventure game Dungeons & Dragons(R). Founded 22 years ago in 1975, TSR Inc. rose to a market leadership position that endures today with the introduction of Dungeons and Dragons. The internationally famous game further generated a wide variety of best-selling adventure and roleplaying games and merchandise, including the New York Times' best-selling book series, Dragonlance. The game Dungeons and Dragons was featured in an early scene of the 1982 Steven Spielberg hit movie, E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial. "TSR Inc. is the pioneer of adventure games and carries an important industry legacy," said Peter D. Adkison, president and CEO of Wizards of the Coast. "We look forward to drawing on TSR's worldwide reputation and established lines of popular games to complement our current business." Lorraine Williams, president and CEO of TSR Inc., added, "The synergies that already exist between Wizards of the Coast and TSR ensure a solid home and future for the vast library of intellectual property which TSR has created, and for its creative community." Wizards of the Coast is a leading developer and publisher of entertainment products, including Magic: The Gathering. Since the game was released in 1993, over two billion cards have been sold, and the game is available in nine languages. Other products published by the company include the trading card game BattleTech(R) and the soon-to-be-released card game Corporate Shuffle(TM), based on the popular comic character DILBERT(TM). The company is headquartered just outside of Seattle, Washington in the city of Renton, and has international offices in the United Kingdom, Belgium and France. For more information on Wizards of the Coast, visit the company's website at . (C)1997 Wizards of the Coast Inc. All rights reserved. WIZARDS OF THE COAST, Magic: The Gathering, and Corporate Shuffle are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast Inc. Dungeons & Dragons is a registered trademark of TSR Inc. BattleTech is a registered trademark of FASA. The BattleTech universe is owned by FASA Corporation and used under license. DILBERT (C) United Feature Syndicate Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:14:46 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! Well, I never thought I'd see it, but I just read on the TSR web page that it's being sold to Wizards of the Coast, the guys who make "Magic: The Gathering". I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff again... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:04:27 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! At 03:14 PM 4/10/97 +0600, you wrote: >Well, I never thought I'd see it, but I just read on the TSR web page that it's being sold to Wizards of the Coast, the guys who make "Magic: The Gathering". I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff again... Possibly, since TSR's problems *ARE* due to the fact that they were cursed for ending the Mystara line... :) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:05:13 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Sean posts another response Folks, I understand your surprise and curiosity, and appreciate your concern, but I really don't have any information other than what is on the web site, so check the web site for updates and do not email me about it, because all I'll be able to tell you is "check the web site" - and all of this mail will fill up my mailbox. Thank you! Good gaming! - - Sean - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://www.tsrinc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:04:23 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vyalia Elves >>I don't know >>why any of us overlooked this >Personally I overlooked that because I don't think that DotE is a very good product and I always doubt I can find there the info I'm looking for :) Now that I think of it, that's probably why I overlooked it as well. I've always found the DotE info to be extremely sketchy on setting. >>but we did, and it's going to require me to make some changes in my elven history, and invalidates the proposed origins of the Belcadiz elves... Seems they are still a mystery... >New idea. Somewhere it says that they come from the southern continent or the Thanegiot Archipelago. >The Kerendans too come from the southern continent. Do you see my point? The adopted the spanish culture from the Espan/Kerendans when these still lived in the area now known as Hinterlands, then they later moved to Glantri. This is just an idea, I've not checked the actual dates of migrations, so I can be totally wrong. Sounds like the best solution to me. But how did the Belcadiz get there in the first place?!? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:21:30 +1000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Thonia and Blackmoor Hello All I don't want to start the Blackmoor debate up again (well not with this post any rate :)) I jsut want to know where Thonia was in relation to Blackmoor. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:41:32 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! In a message dated 97-04-10 16:26:57 EDT, Aaron writes: << I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff again... >> Let's keep our fingers crossed! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:36:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >Well, I never thought I'd see it, but I just read on the TSR web page that it's being sold to Wizards of the Coast, the guys who make "Magic: The Gathering". I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff again... >Aron Reif >areif@vt.edu That would probably be one of the coolest things that ever happened in my life. However, it would put a strain on my pocketbook also. R. Nestler ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:55:47 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thonia and Blackmoor On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, stan wrote: >I jsut want to know where Thonia was in relation to Blackmoor. Blackmoor was Thonia's northwesternmost province, before the revolution and it's becoming a separate kingdom. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:18:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 TSRInc@aol.com wrote: >It's true ... here is the press release. I wanted you all to hear it from here as soon as possible. >See the web site for more info (there isn't much at this time). >This topic is probably off-topic for several of these lists, so please take any discussion to private email if at all possible >Good gaming! >-- >Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator >TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://www.tsrinc.com >WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC. >April 10, 1997 (Renton, Wash.)--Wizards of the Coast Inc. and TSR Inc., the two leaders of the adventure gaming industry, announced today that a letter of intent has been signed by both parties for Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR Inc. The transaction is expected to be completed in May, 1997. >Wizards of the Coast is the publisher of the world's best-selling trading card game, Magic: The Gathering(R). Lake Geneva, Wis.-based TSR Inc. is the publisher of the world-renowned adventure game Dungeons & Dragons(R). >Founded 22 years ago in 1975, TSR Inc. rose to a market leadership position that endures today with the introduction of Dungeons and Dragons. The internationally famous game further generated a wide variety of best-selling adventure and roleplaying games and merchandise, including the New York Times' best-selling book series, Dragonlance. The game Dungeons and Dragons was featured in an early scene of the 1982 Steven Spielberg hit movie, E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial. >"TSR Inc. is the pioneer of adventure games and carries an important industry legacy," said Peter D. Adkison, president and CEO of Wizards of the Coast. "We look forward to drawing on TSR's worldwide reputation and established lines of popular games to complement our current business." >Lorraine Williams, president and CEO of TSR Inc., added, "The synergies that already exist between Wizards of the Coast and TSR ensure a solid home and future for the vast library of intellectual property which TSR has created, and for its creative community." >Wizards of the Coast is a leading developer and publisher of entertainment products, including Magic: The Gathering. Since the game was released in 1993, over two billion cards have been sold, and the game is available in nine languages. Other products published by the company include the trading card game BattleTech(R) and the soon-to-be-released card game Corporate Shuffle(TM), based on the popular comic character DILBERT(TM). The company is headquartered just outside of Seattle, Washington in the city of Renton, and has international offices in the United Kingdom, Belgium and France. For more information on Wizards of the Coast, visit the company's website at . >(C)1997 Wizards of the Coast Inc. All rights reserved. WIZARDS OF THE COAST, Magic: The Gathering, and Corporate Shuffle are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast Inc. Dungeons & Dragons is a registered trademark of TSR Inc. BattleTech is a registered trademark of FASA. The BattleTech universe is owned by FASA Corporation and used under license. DILBERT (C) United Feature Syndicate Inc. Here is something I just found that may be able to help get the Mystara products up and running again. you can e-mail Wizards of the Coast customer service at custserv@wizards.com I suggest that in your request to have them start up Mystara again, you also come up with some clever thing like this one: "I buy your Magic cards all the time, and i will boycott your company if you do not start producing TSR mystara products again." I am also going to suggest, being a purist, that they revert to the OD&D format when they do so. I hope that if everyone on this list sends them an e-mail, that it will work. We will just have to wait and see. Encourage everyone you know to also send an e-mail. One thousand thanks, R. Nestler ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:23:34 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! Whoah! I sure hope this is good news! The way Wizards of the Coast dumped its previous roleplaying lines makes me a bit nervous!!!! WotC decided they didn't do rpg's well, so they canned Ars Magica, Everway, and others! What is the future of Dungeons & Dragons?????? Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:18:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 TSRInc@aol.com wrote: >It's true ... here is the press release. I wanted you all to hear it from here as soon as possible. >See the web site for more info (there isn't much at this time). >This topic is probably off-topic for several of these lists, so please take any discussion to private email if at all possible >Good gaming! >-- >Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator >TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://www.tsrinc.com >WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC. >April 10, 1997 (Renton, Wash.)--Wizards of the Coast Inc. and TSR Inc., the two leaders of the adventure gaming industry, announced today that a letter of intent has been signed by both parties for Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR Inc. The transaction is expected to be completed in May, 1997. >Wizards of the Coast is the publisher of the world's best-selling trading card game, Magic: The Gathering(R). Lake Geneva, Wis.-based TSR Inc. is the publisher of the world-renowned adventure game Dungeons & Dragons(R). >Founded 22 years ago in 1975, TSR Inc. rose to a market leadership position that endures today with the introduction of Dungeons and Dragons. The internationally famous game further generated a wide variety of best-selling adventure and roleplaying games and merchandise, including the New York Times' best-selling book series, Dragonlance. The game Dungeons and Dragons was featured in an early scene of the 1982 Steven Spielberg hit movie, E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial. >"TSR Inc. is the pioneer of adventure games and carries an important industry legacy," said Peter D. Adkison, president and CEO of Wizards of the Coast. "We look forward to drawing on TSR's worldwide reputation and established lines of popular games to complement our current business." >Lorraine Williams, president and CEO of TSR Inc., added, "The synergies that already exist between Wizards of the Coast and TSR ensure a solid home and future for the vast library of intellectual property which TSR has created, and for its creative community." >Wizards of the Coast is a leading developer and publisher of entertainment products, including Magic: The Gathering. Since the game was released in 1993, over two billion cards have been sold, and the game is available in nine languages. Other products published by the company include the trading card game BattleTech(R) and the soon-to-be-released card game Corporate Shuffle(TM), based on the popular comic character DILBERT(TM). The company is headquartered just outside of Seattle, Washington in the city of Renton, and has international offices in the United Kingdom, Belgium and France. For more information on Wizards of the Coast, visit the company's website at . >(C)1997 Wizards of the Coast Inc. All rights reserved. WIZARDS OF THE COAST, Magic: The Gathering, and Corporate Shuffle are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast Inc. Dungeons & Dragons is a registered trademark of TSR Inc. BattleTech is a registered trademark of FASA. The BattleTech universe is owned by FASA Corporation and used under license. DILBERT (C) United Feature Syndicate Inc. Here is something I just found that may be able to help get the Mystara products up and running again. you can e-mail Wizards of the Coast customer service at custserv@wizards.com I suggest that in your request to have them start up Mystara again, you also come up with some clever thing like this one: "I buy your Magic cards all the time, and i will boycott your company if you do not start producing TSR mystara products again." I am also going to suggest, being a purist, that they revert to the OD&D format when they do so. I hope that if everyone on this list sends them an e-mail, that it will work. We will just have to wait and see. Encourage everyone you know to also send an e-mail. One thousand thanks, R. Nestler ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #40 **************************** Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:52:33 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #41 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, April 11 1997 Volume 02 : Number 041 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:39:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vyalia Elves On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Joe Duncan wrote: >>The Kerendans too come from the southern continent. Do you see my point? The adopted the spanish culture from the Espan/Kerendans when these still lived in the area now known as Hinterlands, then they later moved to Glantri. This is just an idea, I've not checked the actual dates of migrations, so I can be totally wrong. >Sounds like the best solution to me. But how did the Belcadiz get there in the first place?!? According to CoM, there was a migration that left Grunland/Vulcania after Ilsundal's migration, that passed up through Addakia, rather than following the first migration through Izonda and the Immortal's Arm. This migration is the one that spawned the Sheyallia elves (who would end up in Yavdlom and then Glantri/Darokin and then Graakhalia). Could be one of the groups in this migration who spent time with the Kerendans and split off to settle in the SC and Glantri (ie, the Belcadiz clan or somesuch). Would also explain their lack of a Tree of Life... Oh, wait. Maybe the Belcadiz have a ToL. GAZ3 mentions their treekeeper. Whatever. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:33:19 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: Re: [SF] Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR >I buy your Magic cards all the time, and i will boycott your company if you do not start producing TSR mystara products again." I am also going to suggest, being a purist, that they revert to the OD&D format when they do so. I hope that if everyone on this list sends them an e-mail, that it will work. Mail-bombing them with a petition would be very counter-productive. Good gaming! - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://www.tsrinc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:33:19 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: [Mystara] Karameikos I h've a player of the karameikos's church, and I whant to give him an Inmortal to play WotI, I suppose than Karameikos it's a church with many Inmortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in the Gaz I dind't find any list of Inmortals.... - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:35:04 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR >Here is something I just found that may be able to help get the Mystara products up and running again. you can e-mail Wizards of the Coast customer service at custserv@wizards.com I suggest that in your request to have them start up Mystara again, you also come up with some clever thing like this one: "I buy your Magic cards all the time, and i will boycott your company if you do not start producing TSR mystara products again." I am also going to suggest, being a purist, that they revert to the OD&D format when they do so. I hope that if everyone on this list sends them an e-mail, that it will work. We will just have to wait and see. Encourage everyone you know to also send an e-mail. >One thousand thanks, >R. Nestler I'm not so sure this is a good idea. They said on the TSR web page that it would probably take 6 or 8 weeks for them to start putting out the stuff that should have gone out 3 months ago. I don't think they want to deal with a bunch of people demanding that they revive a dead line of products that TSR couldn't keep alive in the first place. I think it might be a good idea to let things get back to normal before we start making demands on what they produce. After all, this type of e-mail wasn't enough when TSR was in good shape...now it's just one extra thing they have to think about while trying to make the transition. I think it would be a good idea if you e-mailed them to say that you want them to keep supporting the Dungeons & Dragons game in general, but DEMANDING specific products seems like it would just get in the way of a smooth transition. The rougher the transition, the longer it will take them to start producing new books. I, for one, would like things to get back to normal. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu (Begging for Mystara material 6 months from now sounds perfectly acceptable to me, tho) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:33:19 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: Re: [SF] Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR >I buy your Magic cards all the time, and i will boycott your company if you do not start producing TSR mystara products again." I am also going to suggest, being a purist, that they revert to the OD&D format when they do so. I hope that if everyone on this list sends them an e-mail, that it will work. Mail-bombing them with a petition would be very counter-productive. Good gaming! - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://www.tsrinc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:48:27 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Halflings >Has any of you never thought that perhaps 300.000 xp are too much for halflings in their Attack Ranks, considering that they: 1. have only 8 HD and very few HP >2. have no special abilities like the magic elves have 3. cannot reach the highest attack ranks as dwarves (whose xp are much lower) do 4. yes, they have 2 special defenses, but that's all they've got (1 more than elves or dwarves or gnomes, for that matter) a great way to explain the limitations it's than Halflings are pacifist, and don't learn about the war like the Human's do... so they needs the double "Human's XP points" to learn somes of the habilities of the Humans.... And the halflings (I think) it's the better roleable Class, they give to the adventures somes funny details, AND I have a Halfling (HD8 B) and IMC a player have a halfling (HD-8 D) and they are GREAT warriors :) - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:44:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! Aron Reif pontificated: >Well, I never thought I'd see it, but I just read on the TSR web page that it's being sold to Wizards of the Coast, the guys who make "Magic: The Gathering". I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff again... This is interesting. I would never thought TSR would be brought out by another gaming company a few years ago. Didn't know WotC is that loaded either. Amazing what one little game can do to the gaming industry. Although, I'm not very sure why WotC want TSR for, I thought for the past year, WotC has been phasing out of areas other than card games. And have sold RP games such as Ars Magica to other company. I don't know how much chance we have in them starting up the Mystara line again, as being a business, they have to think about bottom line first, and from what was released by TSR, Mystara line was losing quite a bit of money. But perhaps they will sell games they don't intend to publish to smaller company, and we might see Mystara resurface that way. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:07:38 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! At 07:41 PM 4/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-10 16:26:57 EDT, Aaron writes: ><< I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff >again... >> >Let's keep our fingers crossed! :) >Bruce Heard hey, if it does happen, I'll put in my wish list now: no more $30 box sets that rehash old information. People really interested in Mystara probably have that information already. The way to get people to buy more books is to fell 'em with NEW information. If nothing else, I'll settle for more Poor Wizard's Almanacs. I guess it's too early to tell yet, but I hope all you guys at TSR keep what you got. I'd hate to see too much turnover (ok, maybe the guy who let Mystara die can get the can, but nobody else) or relocation. I've heard too many stories about bad corporate mergers. Good luck. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:00:34 -0600 (MDT) From: David Beekman Subject: [Mystara] Boycott I also want to inform the soon to be owners that although I purchase the Magic card game, if you mdiscontinue the publication of any TSR products, you will soon be losing my support and that of countless others. Everyone who reads this should send similar messages. We must be heard, because if we are not, an entire erea of role-playing and Worlds built by committed authors will soon just be another thing of the past. David A. Beekman President of the Source Role-Playing Guild Kalispell, Montana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:00:34 -0600 (MDT) From: David Beekman Subject: [Mystara] Boycott I also want to inform the soon to be owners that although I purchase the Magic card game, if you mdiscontinue the publication of any TSR products, you will soon be losing my support and that of countless others. Everyone who reads this should send similar messages. We must be heard, because if we are not, an entire erea of role-playing and Worlds built by committed authors will soon just be another thing of the past. David A. Beekman President of the Source Role-Playing Guild Kalispell, Montana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:37:11 -0700 From: Todd South Subject: [Mystara] Re: GMAST-L Sean posts another response At 11:17 PM 4/10/97 -0400, TSRInc@aol.com wrote: >Folks, I understand your surprise and curiosity, and appreciate your concern, but I really don't have any information other than what is on the web site, so check the web site for updates and do not email me about it, because all I'll be able to tell you is "check the web site" - and all of this mail will fill up my mailbox. >Thank you! >Good gaming! >- Sean >-- >Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator >TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://www.tsrinc.com I truly hope they keep you, Sean, and finally give you some damn support. For all the crap we wade through, I think you've supported us more than anyone else at TSR. Todd... - -- Obsessives Compulsives Unit! (tm) The South Side! - http://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/ Worlds of Adventure - http://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/rpg.html The Gamer's Directory - http://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/tgd.html GURPS Net Librams - http://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/gurps/librams.html GURPS WebWorlds Site - http://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/gurps/webworlds.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:12:36 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS....Nestler MY>Here is something I just found that may be able to help get the Mystara MY>products up and running again. you can e-mail Wizards of the Coast MY>customer service at custserv@wizards.com I suggest that in your request MY>to have them start up Mystara again, you also come up with some clever MY>thing like this one: "I buy your Magic cards all the time, and i will MY>boycott your company if you do not start producing TSR mystara products MY>again." I am also going to suggest, being a purist, that they revert to MY>the OD&D format when they do so. I hope that if everyone on this list MY>sends them an e-mail, that it will work. We will just have to wait and MY>see. Encourage everyone you know to also send an e-mail. MY>One thousand thanks, MY>R. Nestler Sounds good, but I'd never in a million years even pretend to play that CCG crap. Necro ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:55:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz In a message dated 97-04-10 17:00:20 EDT, dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it (DM) writes: << This explains how the Belcadiz clan was formed and why they are as they are (and also why they have no Tree of Life)! >> Has it really been established that the Belcadiz clan has no Tree of Life? After all, according to Gaz 3 they do have a Treekeeper. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 02:35:34 -0400 From: esp109@psu.edu (Eduardo Polanco) Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR >>Here is something I just found that may be able to help get the Mystara products up and running again. you can e-mail Wizards of the Coast customer service at custserv@wizards.com I suggest that in your request to have them start up Mystara again, you also come up with some clever thing like this one: "I buy your Magic cards all the time, and i will boycott your company if you do not start producing TSR mystara products again." I am also going to suggest, being a purist, that they revert to the OD&D format when they do so. I hope that if everyone on this list sends them an e-mail, that it will work. We will just have to wait and see. Encourage everyone you know to also send an e-mail. >>One thousand thanks, >>R. Nestler >I'm not so sure this is a good idea. They said on the TSR web page that it would probably take 6 or 8 weeks for them to start putting out the stuff that should have gone out 3 months ago. I don't think they want to deal with a bunch of people demanding that they revive a dead line of products that TSR couldn't keep alive in the first place. I think it might be a good idea to let things get back to normal before we start making demands on what they produce. After all, this type of e-mail wasn't enough when TSR was in good shape...now it's just one extra thing they have to think about while trying to make the transition. >I think it would be a good idea if you e-mailed them to say that you want them to keep supporting the Dungeons & Dragons game in general, but DEMANDING specific products seems like it would just get in the way of a smooth transition. The rougher the transition, the longer it will take them to start producing new books. I, for one, would like things to get back to normal. >Aron Reif >areif@vt.edu I agree with Aron. Give them some time. And when you begin writing to WotC, leave out the ultimatums. It makes the writer sound like a six-year-old kid that's playing a game and then goes home and takes his ball with him when a call doesn't go his way. Start by writing concise messages and make sure you mention why Mystara was such a good product. Also be sure to mention that Mystara did not sell well because of the mistakes TSR made when they converted it to AD&D. We want to sound like interested, intelligent consumers who will spend our money on quality products. If, after a while, it seems that WotC is not paying any attention to us, then you can start using ultimatums. Ed Polanco esp109@psu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 02:42:44 -0400 From: esp109@psu.edu (Eduardo Polanco) Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! At 07:41 PM 4/10/97 -0400, mystara-l@lists.io.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-10 16:26:57 EDT, Aaron writes: ><< I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff >again... >> >Let's keep our fingers crossed! :) >Bruce Heard Bruce, Once everything has settled down, would you please let us know the proper addresses (snail mail and e-mail) to write to WotC and let them know that we want Mystara back. Of course, a salespitch from one of its designers to the new PTB wouldn't hurt either. Ed Polanco esp109@psu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:27:58 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [SF] Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR Hi! >Mail-bombing them with a petition would be very counter-productive. Yes, I think so, too! The "If you don´t produce Mystara again, I will not buy any more of your products" really sounds like black-mail! WE should wait some time, and see, how it will develop, and then we should get into contact with WoC, and try to make them understand, that there are many Mystarafans, etc... *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:27:58 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [SF] Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire TSR Hi! >Mail-bombing them with a petition would be very counter-productive. Yes, I think so, too! The "If you don´t produce Mystara again, I will not buy any more of your products" really sounds like black-mail! WE should wait some time, and see, how it will develop, and then we should get into contact with WoC, and try to make them understand, that there are many Mystarafans, etc... *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:54:39 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! At 15.14 10/04/97 +0600, you wrote: >Well, I never thought I'd see it, but I just read on the TSR web page that it's being sold to Wizards of the Coast, the guys who make "Magic: The Gathering". I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff again... >Aron Reif >areif@vt.edu This is a late April Fool's, isn't it? :( Please, tell me you're not serious!!!!! DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:10:30 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos At 21.33 10/04/97 +0300, you wrote: >I h've a player of the karameikos's church, and I whant to give him an Inmortal to play WotI, I suppose than Karameikos it's a church with many Inmortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in the Gaz I dind't find any list of Inmortals.... >Sebastian Quiles >sq7s@dc.uba.ar As someone already suggested (he actually made a list of the Church of Karameikos' Immortal pantheon, but i don't recall it exactly), the Immortal involved in the Church of Karameikos are: Asterius (head patron) Vanya Ilsundal (?) Tarastia Protius IIRC, of course...:) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:07:22 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Wooddrakes In PC1 Wooddrakes have the ability to turn into a elf/halfling/human. What i don't understand is: can they change their human/elf/halfling appearence each time they transform or they have 3 fixed identities? Thanx DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:21:46 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vyalia and Belcadiz At 20.56 10/04/97 +0200, you wrote: >New idea. Somewhere it says that they [Belcadiz] come from the southern continent or the Thanegiot Archipelago. >The Kerendans too come from the southern continent. Do you see my point? The adopted the spanish culture from the Espan/Kerendans when these still lived in the area now known as Hinterlands, then they later moved to Glantri.Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:52:33 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #41 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk >This is just an idea, I've not checked the actual dates of migrations, so I can be totally wrong. >A better idea is to ask someone of Clan Hierydyls, maybe they can help you :-) >Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it That's a good option. The only problem is time. How much time does a culture need to develop its habtis, customs and language? Consider these points: - -as long as they lived in Davania, kerendans were in close contact with thyatian, hattian and milenian. - -kerendans were heavily influenced by milenians during their life in Davania - -kerendans have never shown an attitude to separatism (as hattians did) nor to dominance of other cultures (as thyatian will do) However, since i like this hypothesis, i'll try to dig out some dates regarding Thyatians and see if it's possible that Kerendans have developed their culture into Espa and Kerendan and that elves have assimilated Espan behaviour. Regarding Belcadiz and ToL, the thing can be explained this way: when they merged with Erewan clan they adopted the use of ToL and began to worship Ilsundal (it's likely, since they had already shown the attitude of cannibalizing other cultures' habits, probably because they lacked a strong cultural background -they forgot their roots when in Davania-) Regarding Vyalia, i still think they belonged to Verdier elves: the physical appearence is just too close to be a mere "distraction" of the writers. DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:04:47 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >This is interesting. I would never thought TSR would be brought out by another gaming company a few years ago. Didn't know WotC is that loaded either. Amazing what one little game can do to the gaming industry. Although, I'm not very sure why WotC want TSR for, I thought for the past year, WotC has been phasing out of areas other than card games. And have sold RP games such as Ars Magica to other company. I don't know how much chance we have in them starting up the Mystara line again, as being a business, they have to think about bottom line first, and from what was released by TSR, Mystara line was losing quite a bit of money. But perhaps they will sell games they don't intend to publish to smaller company, and we might see Mystara resurface that way. It was always my impression that the Mystara line only started losing money when it was converted to AD&D (and they began to re-release products with "added fluff"). Otherwise why did they continue to release D&D products for so long? True, they may not have been making a lot of money, but they can't have been losing money either. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:59:54 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 Sebastian Quiles wrote: >I h've a player of the karameikos's church, and I whant to give him an Inmortal to play WotI, I suppose than Karameikos it's a church with many Inmortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in the Gaz I dind't find any list of Inmortals.... The Karameikan Immortals include Halav, Petra and Zirchev, but they would be in the Traladaran Church. The Church of Karameikos is basically just the Church of Thyatis, but I don't think it is really detailed much either. I think you are probably right that you could choose any Immortal who fits the ideals of the church. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:01:49 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS....Nestler On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 necromancer@vabch.com wrote: >Sounds good, but I'd never in a million years even pretend to play that CCG crap. >Necro I'm sure more than a few Magic players could see the irony in the above quoted text. ;-) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 11:54:30 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vyalia Elves Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One writes: >in Yavdlom and then Glantri/Darokin and then Graakhalia). Could be one of the groups in this migration who spent time with the Kerendans and split off to settle in the SC and Glantri (ie, the Belcadiz clan or somesuch). Would also explain their lack of a Tree of Life... >Oh, wait. Maybe the Belcadiz have a ToL. GAZ3 mentions their treekeeper. Whatever. :) Where? I don't recall this... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 11:50:40 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire Aron Reif writes: >I'm not so sure this is a good idea. They said on the TSR web page that it would probably take 6 or 8 weeks for them to start putting out the stuff that should have gone out 3 months ago. I don't think they want to deal with a bunch of people demanding that they revive a dead line of products that TSR couldn't keep alive in the first place. I think it might be a good Woa. Hold on a sec. The reason TSR went out of business is BECAUSE they stopped the Mystara line. It wasn't dead. I refuse to believe it. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 11:59:13 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos DM writes: >At 21.33 10/04/97 +0300, you wrote: >>I h've a player of the karameikos's church, and I whant to give him an Inmortal to play WotI, I suppose than Karameikos it's a church with many Inmortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in the Gaz I dind't find any list of Inmortals.... >>Sebastian Quiles >>sq7s@dc.uba.ar >As someone already suggested (he actually made a list of the Church of Karameikos' Immortal pantheon, but i don't recall it exactly), the Immortal involved in the Church of Karameikos are: Asterius (head patron) >Vanya >Ilsundal (?) >Tarastia >Protius Where did you get this from? Wouldn't Halav Petra Zirchev + others... be more appropriate? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 12:03:08 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vyalia and Belcadiz DM writes: >Regarding Belcadiz and ToL, the thing can be explained this way: when they merged with Erewan clan they adopted the use of ToL and began to worship Ilsundal (it's likely, since they had already shown the attitude of cannibalizing other cultures' habits, probably because they lacked a strong cultural background -they forgot their roots when in Davania-) I like this idea. Makes a lot of sense to me. >Regarding Vyalia, i still think they belonged to Verdier elves: the physical appearence is just too close to be a mere "distraction" of the writers. Not so sure about this one though. My original thought was that they were part of the Verdier, but the Verdier don't have a ToL and the Vyalia clearly do. Is there any mention on when the Vyalia showed up where they are now? Or have they been there longer than the cultures around them? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:20:42 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! At 19:41 10-04-97 -0400, TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-10 16:26:57 EDT, Aaron writes: ><< I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff >again... >> >Let's keep our fingers crossed! :) >Bruce Heard Can't you talk to them? :) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:23:45 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! In a message dated 97-04-11 00:31:34 EDT, Aaron Reif writes: << (ok, maybe the guy who let Mystara die can get the can, but nobody else) Referring to anyone in particular, Aaron? Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:32:00 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos At 21.33 10/04/97 +0300, you wrote: >I h've a player of the karameikos's church, and I whant to give him an Inmortal to play WotI, I suppose than Karameikos it's a church with many Inmortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in the Gaz I dind't find any list of Inmortals.... These are the immortals of the Karameikos Church, as told by Bruce Heard in an old Dragon Magazine: Asterius (Eternal of Thought), Leader Kagyar (Eternal of Matter) Ilsundal (Hierarch of Thought) Valerias (Hierarch of Matter) Vanya (Empyreal of Time) BTW: it's not the first time that someone ask this question, what about putting them in the FAQ (if any)? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:20:29 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! At 18:04 10-04-97 -0400, Joe Duncan wrote: >At 03:14 PM 4/10/97 +0600, you wrote: >>Well, I never thought I'd see it, but I just read on the TSR web page that it's being sold to Wizards of the Coast, the guys who make "Magic: The Gathering". I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff again... >Possibly, since TSR's problems *ARE* due to the fact that they were cursed for ending the Mystara line... :) Hehe...so if WoC doesn't continue Mystara, they will get into problems too? :) Lets hope WoC will make more Mystara products, and hope that they won't go on making everything Forgotten Realms (not that I don't like that world, but I like to have more worlds. When they changed Dragonlance to that stupid SAGA system, it sucked too...) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:32:04 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz At 01.55 11/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-10 17:00:20 EDT, dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it (DM) writes: ><< This explains how the Belcadiz clan was formed and why they are as they >are (and also why they have no Tree of Life)! >> >Has it really been established that the Belcadiz clan has no Tree of Life? After all, according to Gaz 3 they do have a Treekeeper. 3 questions: 1) Where in Gaz3 I can find about Belcadiz having a Treekeeper? 2) Wasn't (almost) everyone in Glantri supposed to worship Rad and any sort of religion forbidden? Even when clerics are allowed to enter Glantri (AC1001 IIRC), they cannot preach Immortals. BTW: Rad isn't cosidered an Immortal, just the source of magic, light, life... 3) I've just noticed that in the Erewan clan there're 3 sisters with prophetic powers, this reminds me of Sheyallia elves, but the Erewans come from Alfheim. Strange, isn't it? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:27:35 -0500 (EST) From: Mouse Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acqui This is not to say that you do not have a valid point. However, I would not go about it in this fashion. I do not think TSR nor Wizards of the Coast would be to appreciative of receiving threats or demands from people wanting a discontinued product to be re-issued. But, I was also thinking of a similar idea or strategy. The idea I was toying with was to first wait until things settle down a bit from purchase. Then send, perhaps a petition or letter, presenting (for and against) both sides of the issue to re-establish the AD&D/OD&D Mystara product line. If it discussed in a logical and sound manner, then perhaps it may be continued. On the other hand, it may not. This is/was only an idea. We could also just simply be content with the wonderful products that -have- been released. Does anyone else has any thoughts or suggestions? - --Mouse Life is pain...!! Anyone who says differently is selling something. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Here is something I just found that may be able to help get the Mystara products up and running again. you can e-mail Wizards of the Coast customer service at custserv@wizards.com I suggest that in your request to have them start up Mystara again, you also come up with some clever thing like this one: "I buy your Magic cards all the time, and i will boycott your company if you do not start producing TSR mystara products again." I am also going to suggest, being a purist, that they revert to the OD&D format when they do so. I hope that if everyone on this list sends them an e-mail, that it will work. We will just have to wait and see. Encourage everyone you know to also send an e-mail. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:21:09 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Vyalia Elves >Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One writes: >>in Yavdlom and then Glantri/Darokin and then Graakhalia). Could be one of the groups in this migration who spent time with the Kerendans and split off to settle in the SC and Glantri (ie, the Belcadiz clan or somesuch). Would also explain their lack of a Tree of Life... >>Oh, wait. Maybe the Belcadiz have a ToL. GAZ3 mentions their treekeeper. Whatever. :) >Where? I don't recall this... In the NPC list under the Belcadiz entry. One of Princess Carnelia's aunts is the treekeeper. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:55:08 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thonia and Blackmoor On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 stan wrote: >Hello All >I don't want to start the Blackmoor debate up again (well not with this post any rate :)) >I jsut want to know where Thonia was in relation to Blackmoor. I presume everyone knows about the map in the HW box which shows pre and post Rain of Fire Mystara? It has a vague location for Blackmoor I think, possibly in the post-cataclysm map too. Besides, if Blackmoor became the north pole and the elven society the south, they were both completely eradicated when the Immortals sealed up the old (smaller) polar openings and opened up the new (larger) ones. Or did you all know this already? I missed the "Blackmoor debate" because I only recently joined the list. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:47:47 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wooddrakes >In PC1 Wooddrakes have the ability to turn into a elf/halfling/human. What >i don't understand is: can they change their human/elf/halfling appearence >each time they transform or they have 3 fixed identities? I'm not sure about OD&D wooddrakes, but in the Dragonlord Trilogy a mandrake has one human form and one dragon-kin form. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:57:18 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Erewan-Sheyallia >3) I've just noticed that in the Erewan clan there're 3 sisters with >prophetic powers, this reminds me of Sheyallia elves, but the Erewans come >from Alfheim. Strange, isn't it? Champions of Mystara explains that the prophetic powers in Yavdlom are due to an immortal artifact near the Serpent Peninsula which makes people of mixed elven and human descent into seers. The surviving Sheyallia in Graakhalia do not have prophetic powers, and CoM states that in all of Yav's searching, he found only one person (an immortal in human form) whose prophetic powers seemed innate, as Yav's. This implies that the Erewan elves receive their power of prophecy from some sort of magic. Patrick ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #41 **************************** Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:25:53 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #42 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 28fe9a93105b81807c761409e5ff905c mystara-digest Sunday, April 13 1997 Volume 02 : Number 042 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 14:08:36 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thonia and Blackmoor stan writes: >Hello All >I don't want to start the Blackmoor debate up again (well not with this post any rate :)) >I jsut want to know where Thonia was in relation to Blackmoor. Blackmoor was a northern province of Thonia, which rebelled under the leadership of Uther (see DA1). Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:10:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] Mystara netMAGs Form: Memo Text: (24 lines follow) Through the TSR online area on AOL, we've had a bunch of folks contribute to several different online Mystara netMAGs. I, personally, compiled issues 1-4, and I still have them on my hard drive. I would be willing to upload them here as an email attaachment, but I need to know what format you want them in. I use .sit files b/c I have a MAC at home, but I do have two of them as .zip files. I will upload either or both depending on the requests of ya'll. The files themselves are all either .txt or .gif files. As a side note, these are NOT compiled as a part of any continuity, but rather simply as bits and peices of people's campaigns that they wished to share. They are totally unrelated to anything done on this list, although a few of the contributors to the message boards are also subscribers to the list. if there is an interest, I will upload them from home this weekend. If not, I'll skip it. brant b1bard@aol.com Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:40:18 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! At 10:54 AM 4/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >At 15.14 10/04/97 +0600, you wrote: >>Well, I never thought I'd see it, but I just read on the TSR web page that it's being sold to Wizards of the Coast, the guys who make "Magic: The Gathering". I wonder if we could get them to start producing Mystara stuff again... >>Aron Reif >>areif@vt.edu >This is a late April Fool's, isn't it? :( Please, tell me you're not serious!!!!! >DM no joke. check out www.tsrinc.com. if it's a joke, it's THEIR joke, not mine. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:46:02 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! At 12:23 PM 4/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-11 00:31:34 EDT, Aaron Reif writes: ><< (ok, maybe the guy who let Mystara die can get the can, but nobody else) >Referring to anyone in particular, Aaron? >Bruce Heard I have no idea. I was assuming that that decision was made by someone in the Upper Levels of TSR management, and I don't know any of their names. I'm sure you know, though, so I nominate you to be in charge of firing him (or her). Hell, even if you don't, at least tell me you're gonna. Not like I could check up on it or anything. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:42:12 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire At 11:50 AM 4/11/97 EDT, you wrote: >Aron Reif writes: >>I'm not so sure this is a good idea. They said on the TSR web page that it would probably take 6 or 8 weeks for them to start putting out the stuff that should have gone out 3 months ago. I don't think they want to deal with a bunch of people demanding that they revive a dead line of products that TSR couldn't keep alive in the first place. I think it might be a good >Woa. Hold on a sec. The reason TSR went out of business is BECAUSE they stopped the Mystara line. It wasn't dead. I refuse to believe it. well, ok, you got me there. I guess I was referring to them letting the AD&D version die (not OD&D...that's still living). yeah, that's the ticket. :) Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:03:59 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire In a message dated 97-04-11 15:43:58 EDT, you write: << Woa. Hold on a sec. The reason TSR went out of business is BECAUSE they stopped the Mystara line. It wasn't dead. I refuse to believe it. >> Yeah, I can still hear some scratchin' inside that tomb. Or maybe is it the maggots? Let's dig! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:09:47 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! In a message dated 97-04-11 17:05:43 EDT, Aron writes: << I have no idea. I was assuming that that decision was made by someone in the Upper Levels of TSR management, and I don't know any of their names. I'm sure you know, though, so I nominate you to be in charge of firing him (or her). Hell, even if you don't, at least tell me you're gonna. >> Oh okay. :) Looks like WOTC took care of that one already (or soon enough anyway) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:03:05 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! In a message dated 97-04-11 15:21:55 EDT, you write: << Can't you talk to them? :) >> That's too early for this, *way* too early. There are many other considerations that need to be discussed before approaching WOTC on such an issue. As I pointed out on other boards -- THIS IS NOT A DONE DEAL YET. Sorry for raising my voice. Nor I am wishing things don't come through, but that's just a fact. Negotiations are likely to go on for another six weeks (or more) before WOTC actually accepts to complete the buyout. *Then* comes the nitty gritty of carrying out the takeover, how and how fast, etc. They'll have their hands full for quite a while before the fate of Mystara and other game worlds gets even looked at. The good news is that A LOT of the present WOTC staffer are AD&D fans themselves (I wonder if there are any Mystara fans too?) They're looking forward to getting involved with this grand' ole game. Be patient. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:50:34 -0500 From: "George E. Hrabovsky" Subject: [Mystara] D&D Webpage I have just started up a D&D webpage at www.msn.fullfeed.com/~george. It is not Mystara, but it is OD&D. George ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:13:07 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wooddrakes In a message dated 97-04-11 06:11:51 EDT, you write: << In PC1 Wooddrakes have the ability to turn into a elf/halfling/human. What i don't understand is: can they change their human/elf/halfling appearence each time they transform or they have 3 fixed identities? >> The way I interpret it, the wooddrake has only one humanoid identity and it is either a halfling, elf, OR a human (not all three). Each wooddrake has a unique mortal identity that it cannot change . . . this ability is not a limited form of the polymorph spell. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:16:39 -0400 (EST) From: Daniel Boese Subject: [Mystara] Re: TSR's dropped lines of products (fwd) I sent a query to WotC, and got this reply... - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:56:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric Cagle, Ye Keeper of Knowledge" To: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: TSR's dropped lines of products On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Daniel Boese wrote: >Will WotC be reviving any of the gameworlds that TSR stopped producing new products for? ie, Mystara, SpellJammer, and GreyHawk. IIf the issue is in doubt, is there any way for fans of those lines to influence WotC's decision? The only information that can be released at this point is that we have signed a Letter of Intent with TSR for their aquisition. The deal is NOT finalized, however, and it will take some time before a complete agreement has been reached. There will be more information forthcoming, but at the moment there ARE no details aboutthe deal, how it will affect either companies operations, product lines, etc. Thanks! Eric Cagle **Ye Keeper of Knowledge** Player Response Team/Customer Service Wizards of the Coast, Inc. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wizards of the Coast PO Box 707, Renton, WA 98057-0707 Phone: 206-624-0933 Rules: questions@wizards.com General questions: custserv@wizards.com Duelist Convocation: dci@wizards.com Arena League: league@wizards.com Visit our website at: http://www.wizards.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara netMAGs Personally I am very interested. Where on AOL can we find these, and when were they put out. -Diego On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, GUILLORY: BRANT wrote: >Form: Memo >Text: (24 lines follow) >Through the TSR online area on AOL, we've had a bunch of folks contribute to several different online Mystara netMAGs. I, personally, compiled issues 1-4, and I still have them on my hard drive. I would be willing to upload them here as an email attaachment, but I need to know what format you want them in. >I use .sit files b/c I have a MAC at home, but I do have two of them as .zip files. I will upload either or both depending on the requests of ya'll. The files themselves are all either .txt or .gif files. >As a side note, these are NOT compiled as a part of any continuity, but rather simply as bits and peices of people's campaigns that they wished to share. They are totally unrelated to anything done on this list, although a few of the contributors to the message boards are also subscribers to the list. >if there is an interest, I will upload them from home this weekend. If not, I'll skip it. >brant >b1bard@aol.com >Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:48:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >1) Where in Gaz3 I can find about Belcadiz having a Treekeeper? Under the writeup of the Belcadiz clan in the Characters section. It mentions one of the family members as being the treekeeper of the clan. >2) Wasn't (almost) everyone in Glantri supposed to worship Rad and any sort of religion forbidden? Clerics are outlawed, and organized religion aside from the Shepherds of Rad is discouraged. The Trees of Life don't necessarily have religious connotation, though. And if so, the fact that they are creations of Ilsundal didn't come about until after GAZ3 was developed. Perhaps the elves, being among the oldest residents of Glantri, are exempt. And Rad doesn't have that many followers, at least not as far as my understanding went of GAZ3. The Shepherds of Rad, and the Followers of the Radiance were about it... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:53:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wooddrakes On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >The way I interpret it, the wooddrake has only one humanoid identity and it is either a halfling, elf, OR a human (not all three). Each wooddrake has a unique mortal identity that it cannot change . . . this ability is not a limited form of the polymorph spell. I don't recall that Wooddrakes can adopt a human form- IIRC, only Mandrakes have a human form. Wooddrakes have an elf/halfling form (which I always assumed meant both), and Colddrakes have a dwarf/gnome form. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:16:30 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! ><< I have no idea. I was assuming that that decision was made by someone in tthe Upper Levels of TSR management, and I don't know any of their names. I'm sure you know, though, so I nominate you to be in charge of firing him (or her). Hell, even if you don't, at least tell me you're gonna. >> >Oh okay. :) >Looks like WOTC took care of that one already (or soon enough anyway) >Bruce Heard ugh, the firing's starting already. Well, as long as it's only the upper management, I don't care. I hope that WOTC is smart enough to hold on to all the creative people that they could aquire. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu BTW--you're not considered upper management, are you? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:01:40 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: [Mystara] D&D Webpage MY>I have just started up a D&D webpage at www.msn.fullfeed.com/~george. MY>It is not Mystara, but it is OD&D. MY> George YES YES YES YES I can't wait to check it out. Be there in a few minutes!!!!!!!!!!!! Necromancer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:59:38 -0500 From: necromancer@vabch.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!! MY>At 12:23 PM 4/11/97 -0400, you wrote: MY>>In a message dated 97-04-11 00:31:34 EDT, Aaron Reif writes: MY>> MY>><< (ok, maybe the guy who let Mystara die can get the can, but nobody else MY>>>> MY>> MY>>Referring to anyone in particular, Aaron? MY>> MY>>Bruce Heard MY>> MY>I have no idea. I was assuming that that decision was made by someone in MY>the Upper Levels of TSR management, and I don't know any of their names. MY>I'm sure you know, though, so I nominate you to be in charge of firing him MY>(or her). Hell, even if you don't, at least tell me you're gonna. Not like MY>I could check up on it or anything. MY>Aron Reif MY>areif@vt.edu It was probably the same hoser that made the "executive decision" to get rid of Greyhawk and OD&D. Necromancer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:20:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: The Fate of TSR was(Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!!) On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Deathwatch wrote: >Lets hope WoC will make more Mystara products, and hope that they won't go on making everything Forgotten Realms (not that I don't like that world, but I like to have more worlds. When they changed Dragonlance to that stupid SAGA system, it sucked too...) I enjoy the new dragonlace setting and the SAGA system. The fact that TSR tried something new rather than the old and IMHO crappy ad&d system is commendable. Should WotC resurrect Mystara and add a new system that would be good too. The Gaming industry is about money. TSR was hated by many gamers because of its seeming ideology of quantity, not quality. It is therefore my hope that WotC will change this and create new and better RPG books. The Revival of Mystara would be a great thing, but I realise that this will not happen over night. My greater fear is that WotC will stop releasing games at all. The Company did recently fire all their employees involved with RPGs. However, since they are aquiering TSR, i believe that they are trying to get into the RPG market again. Hmm. Wonder what the future _will_ bring. Yours truly Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:40:25 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Jody Duncan wrote: >DM writes: >>As someone already suggested (he actually made a list of the Church of Karameikos' Immortal pantheon, but i don't recall it exactly), the Immortal involved in the Church of Karameikos are: Asterius (head patron) >>Vanya >>Ilsundal (?) >>Tarastia >>Protius >Where did you get this from? Wouldn't >Halav >Petra >Zirchev + others... >be more appropriate? I already posted some info on this. the list above is not quite correct. The Immortals of the Church of Karameikos are: Asterius (leader) Vanya Valerias Ilsundal Kagyar This info was from an issue of Dragon Magazine. The Immortals of the Church of Traldara are: Halav Petra Zirchev Chardastes (seeming to be a recent addition to the church, only mentioned in WotI) I am planning to create more material for these Churches in the future. Ideas and questions are welcome :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts..edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:14:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts >I am new to the list, but I think Gareth sounds alot like the immortal Beneker (speling). After all he was opposed to all immortals throughtout the entire WoI adventure. This would also be a perfect way for a new immortal to attract followers from mortals who had seen their families and countries destroyed by a world war influenced by immortals. JJay Gareth mentioned having returned from the Vortex. This may just be a lie ofcouse, but this was what fascinated me most about him. I think he has some sonnection with the Old Ones. He may even be an Old One himself. He could be the one acting in WotI. I dont think those actions were too much like what I would expect from an Old One. He could be a renegade (renegade Old Ones, now thats scary) Any thoughts on this? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:03:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wooddrakes In a message dated 97-04-12 03:55:35 EDT, Dennis.Sullivan.Family@worldnet.att.net (Patrick) writes: << I'm not sure about OD&D wooddrakes, but in the Dragonlord Trilogy a mandrake has one human form and one dragon-kin form. >> And that accords quite well with the information we have about mandrakes in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia and similar sources. But I suppose the real question about woodrakes and coldrakes is -- do each of these creatures have one humanoid form or two? In other words, does a woodrake have an elf form and a halfling form -- or does he just have one or the other? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:54:48 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos In a message dated 97-04-12 11:58:10 EDT, you write: << The Immortals of the Church of Traldara are: Halav Petra Zirchev Chardastes (seeming to be a recent addition to the church, only mentioned in WotI) Actually, although Chardastes is a native Traladaran Immortal, he is venerated through the auspices of the Church of Karameikos, not the Church of Traladara. This is extrapolated from info in B1-9 In Search of Adventure. Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:25:53 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #42 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 28fe9a93105b81807c761409e5ff905c Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:08:54 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >Clerics are outlawed, and organized religion aside from the Shepherds of Rad is discouraged. The Trees of Life don't necessarily have religious connotation, though. And if so, the fact that they are creations of Ilsundal didn't come about until after GAZ3 was developed. Perhaps the elves, being among the oldest residents of Glantri, are exempt. I always considered demihuman "worship" to be very different from human worship anyway. Their clan relics help to separate demihuman religion from human religion. Which reminds me... I've been thinking that the gnomes should also have a clan relic, since they are basically the fourth demihuman race. (In AD&D terms, and also in a lot of D&D books they are referred to s demihumans). So, I have come up with an idea for their clan relics. Like the Trees of Life, gnomish relics are avatars of the gnomes' Immortal (and creator), Garal Glitterlode. However, the gnomish relic is of a completely different kind from the other demihuman relics. It fills an entire room in the heart of the clan stronghold or meeting place. It consists of hundreds of whirring gears, metal tubes and pipes, valves, levers, buttons, dials, grills, flashing lights and little plates of glass. Of course it is never left untended, and there are always at least a few gnomish engineers running around the little platforms and walkways, meddling and "improving" on it. But what does it do? Well, it has number of different functions. First, it serves as the centre for the gnomes' communication tubes (most gnome stongholds have some form of communication system [internal, but sometimes external too] which utilises air tubes and message cylinders). Second, it is a source of "power" for some of the gnomes' inventions (usually menial house-work inventions). Third, it has a limited form of intelligence (being an avatar of Garal Glitterlode), and it can answer questions the gnomes ask of it. The questions are spoken into a metal tube, and answers appear magically on the little glass plates. Of course, the answers are not always helpful, and very often pretty obscure. But when it comes to the realms of Fantasy Physics, it can be quite informative and helpful (perhaps giving a +2 bonus to the Fantasy Physics skill checks of a gnome who consults with it?). I'm sure it can do other things too, but I'm not sure what they could be. It would also be nice to be able to compare it to the other relics, but unfortunately I don't have my D&D stuff with me right now. :-( By the way, this stuff is sort of loosely based on a few bits of PC2 (which is one of my favourite D&D accessories). So what do you think? Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:38:19 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz At 17.48 11/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >And Rad doesn't have that many followers, at least not as far as my understanding went of GAZ3. The Shepherds of Rad, and the Followers of the Radiance were about it... IIRC GAZ3 states that every good citizen has to be a devout follower of Rad. Moreover constables, officers of the army, magistrates and the like have to go to the temple each morning. I don't know if they can be considered followers though, because they hore somehow forced to worship Rad. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:32:55 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz At 17.48 11/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>1) Where in Gaz3 I can find about Belcadiz having a Treekeeper? >Under the writeup of the Belcadiz clan in the Characters section. It mentions one of the family members as being the treekeeper of the clan. Uh... this is really funny. The italian translation of GAZ3 doesn't mention this, anyway I believe you :) Can someone please check his Gaz3 and tell me the name of this Treekeeper? Thanks. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics There is no question that gnomish clan relics should be some sort of huge, extremely complicated machine. In the Companion level module _Earthshaker_, one such relic is identified -- the gargantuan construct itself. I would infer that the sky gnome relic is Serraine itself, while the earth gnomes of such places as Karameikos have less obvious and better hidden relics, perhaps along the lines of Thorfinn's suggestion. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz In a message dated 97-04-13 15:07:13 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << IIRC GAZ3 states that every good citizen has to be a devout follower of Rad. Moreover constables, officers of the army, magistrates and the like have to go to the temple each morning. I don't know if they can be considered followers though, because they hore somehow forced to worship Rad. >> I would suspect that those citizens who worship Rad under duress do not count as followers of Rad -- but most Glantrians follow Rad's anti-clerical, pro-wizard philosohpy willingly and thus do count as Rad's followers. If a large portion of the population did not adhere to this philosophy, enforcement of the anti-clerical laws would have been next to impossible. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:02:01 -0500 From: Reg Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire At 05:03 PM 4/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-11 15:43:58 EDT, you write: ><< Woa. Hold on a sec. The reason TSR went out of business is BECAUSE tthey stopped the Mystara line. It wasn't dead. I refuse to believe it. >> >Yeah, I can still hear some scratchin' inside that tomb. Or maybe is it the maggots? Let's dig! :) >Bruce Heard Think about it, WotC buying TSR could be the best thing for Mystara. WotC (If they buy TSR) is going to be buzy for the next six months. But after settling in with TSR, they'll be looking at the market for what the gamer's want. So I suggest if we want Mystara to breathe again, we get our act together and support Mystara. This is our chance to get everything smoothed out for Mystara... Want to see better classes, or changes in the rules system, more campaign background, etc... We should get everything we can together, work it out and in a couple months if eveything goes as planned. Mystara back on the selves on your local gaming store. Its alive, alive !!!! - Reginald the MageSlayer ==================================================== Today would be a good day to die And if I were to do so I would not ask why Life is such a monotony Death, on the other hand, is simple and free But death has an undesirable consequence my friend. It's not that life is so short, Rather, Death has no end. ==================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:54:26 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics At 03:57 PM 4/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >There is no question that gnomish clan relics should be some sort of huge, extremely complicated machine. In the Companion level module _Earthshaker_, one such relic is identified -- the gargantuan construct itself. I would infer that the sky gnome relic is Serraine itself, while the earth gnomes of such places as Karameikos have less obvious and better hidden relics, perhaps along the lines of Thorfinn's suggestion. Actually, in _Earthshaker_ the clan relic is not Earthshaker itself, but rather the Clock of Timelessness which is housed within it. At the risk of violating copyright, I offer the following quote from p.16 of the module since there has been interest in gnomish relics: "The clan's relic, the Clock of Timelessness, is a 5-foot clock with a skeleton movement (the inner works can be seen clearly). Unlike Earthshader, the relic is ornately decorated; gears are filigreed, armatures sculpted, and jewels are lavishly set in the clock's face. The relic has all the standard powers of a relic as described in the Companion rules. In addition, the relic can be used to fashion the rare _equation of time_. The equation allows time travel to any specific point in time. First the keeper and his aides must study and record the movements of the clock in perfect detail for one year. With this data, they must perform thousands of complex, magical, mathematical formulae in their heads. Nothing of this can be written on paper and the slightest error will cause the end result to be imperfect. Performing these calculations takes 20 years. When the final formula has been completed, the keeper and the clanmaster can correctly set the clock. When the clock is set, one person or object is instantly transported through time to the chosen date. The transported object remains there for 24 hours and then must either transport again (by use of another _equation of time_) or fade into nonexistence. Anything that fades disappears utterly and totally from the Multiverse as if it had never existed (although any possessions or previous deeds of a character do not change)." Of course not all gnomish relics would have to be such as this, if you even like the way it is dealt with in the module in the first place. /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Web: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ ~| Amateur conguero; Q(O+H)Q(G+W)AEEEBGKUS Mystaran; P75 on Ethernet |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:33:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz In a message dated 97-04-13 16:01:37 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << Can someone please check his Gaz3 and tell me the name of this Treekeeper? Her name is Victoria, aunt to Dona Leontina and mother to Blanca and Carmina. Just out of curiosity, could you provide us a translation of what the Italian version says about her? The English version reads as follows: "Victoria (E9, L, witch of the 2nd circle) is the clan's oldest member, and is Dona Leontina's aunt and the Treekeeper. She is the mother of Blanca and Carmina." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:52:23 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics >Actually, in _Earthshaker_ the clan relic is not Earthshaker itself, but rather the Clock of Timelessness which is housed within it. At the risk of violating copyright, I offer the following quote from p.16 of the module since there has been interest in gnomish relics: >"The clan's relic, the Clock of Timelessness, is a 5-foot clock with a skeleton movement (the inner works can be seen clearly). Unlike Earthshader, the relic is ornately decorated; gears are filigreed, armatures sculpted, and jewels are lavishly set in the clock's face. The relic has all the standard powers of a relic as described in the Companion rules. >In addition, the relic can be used to fashion the rare _equation of time_. The equation allows time travel to any specific point in time. First the keeper and his aides must study and record the movements of the clock in perfect detail for one year. With this data, they must perform thousands of complex, magical, mathematical formulae in their heads. Nothing of this can be written on paper and the slightest error will cause the end result to be imperfect. Performing these calculations takes 20 years. WWhen the final formula has been completed, the keeper and the clanmaster can correctly set the clock. When the clock is set, one person or object is instantly transported through time to the chosen date. The transported object remains there for 24 hours and then must either transport again (by use of another _equation of time_) or fade into nonexistence. Anything that fades disappears utterly and totally from the Multiverse as if it had never existed (although any possessions or previous deeds of a character do not change)." >Of course not all gnomish relics would have to be such as this, if you even like the way it is dealt with in the module in the first place. um, if you only have 24 hrs, how do you do 21 years of calculations required to travel again? I suppose you could do the calculations before you leave, but that's got to be one VERY important 24 hr time period if you're going to spend 42 years studying just to get there and back. Not many people would be willing to waste most of their life (just imagine doing math calculations everyday for the next 42 years!!!) just to visit another time for 24 hours. I wonder how much this power is used, considering there are easier, less time-consuming methods to time-travel, and most of them leave you at the desired destination for as long as you want. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:03:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >Which reminds me... I've been thinking that the gnomes should also have a clan relic, since they are basically the fourth demihuman race. (In AD&D terms, and also in a lot of D&D books they are referred to s demihumans). So, I have come up with an idea for their clan relics. In CM4: Earthshaker, the gnomes that live in Earthshaker have a clan relic. Some sort of clock thingy. Can't remember offhand what it's called. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:09:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >I would suspect that those citizens who worship Rad under duress do not count as followers of Rad -- but most Glantrians follow Rad's anti-clerical, pro-wizard philosohpy willingly and thus do count as Rad's followers. If a large portion of the population did not adhere to this philosophy, enforcement of the anti-clerical laws would have been next to impossible. I don't really know that 'most' of the population adheres to this. Within the actual dominions- yes, I'd say that it would be wuite easy for the rulers to make worship mandatory. But a lot of Glantri is not directly administered by individual rulers- there are many 'borderland' type territories- for instance, prior to the merging of Morlay and Malinbois, most of the surrounding area of the two dominions was not directly administered by either of the two rulers, but indirectly administered by the Council. Most of the individual villages and hamlets run themselves, and aren't really a part of the whole system of government. The Free Fundamentalist Farmers are representatives of these people, and they definitely do not care for the current system of government. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:42:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics In a message dated 97-04-13 17:06:36 EDT, dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu (David 'Azure' Leland) writes: << Actually, in _Earthshaker_ the clan relic is not Earthshaker itself, but rather the Clock of Timelessness which is housed within it. >> That works out even better -- every gnome clan could conceivably have such a relic and need not build an Earthshaker or something similarly grotesque to house it in. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:53:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >um, if you only have 24 hrs, how do you do 21 years of calculations required to travel again? I suppose you could do the calculations before you leave, but that's got to be one VERY important 24 hr time period if you're going to spend 42 years studying just to get there and back. You could do the calculations before you leave, or you could travel to a period where someone has already done the calculations. My fave though, is this: The person who travels in time only has 24 hours, but back on the home front, the other gnomes are busy at work calculating his return time, and twenty years later, poof! The time traveler pops back home. Twenty years have passed for everyone else, but only 24 hours for him. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 18:59:18 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics Thorfinn Tait writes: >But what does it do? Well, it has number of different functions. First, it serves as the centre for the gnomes' communication tubes (most gnome stongholds have some form of communication system [internal, but sometimes external too] which utilises air tubes and message cylinders). Second, it is a source of "power" for some of the gnomes' inventions (usually menial house-work inventions). Third, it has a limited form of intelligence (being an avatar of Garal Glitterlode), and it can answer questions the gnomes ask of it. The questions are spoken into a metal tube, and answers appear magically on the little glass plates. Of course, the answers are not always helpful, and very often pretty obscure. But when it comes to the realms of Fantasy Physics, it can be quite informative and helpful (perhaps giving a +2 bonus to the Fantasy Physics skill checks of a gnome who consults with it?). Can it run Pong or Space Invaders? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #42 **************************** Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:56:21 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #43 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: be2f1599d88784d022c6580f02efc3ec mystara-digest Tuesday, April 15 1997 Volume 02 : Number 043 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:51:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: [Mystara] the Vyalia I have Gaz 1 and am running a campaign in the eastern reaches of the Karameikos. I was wondering if anyone had information on the Vyalia elves. If some kind soul could tell me what has been printed in other sources I would be much obliged. Also, does anyone know what has happened to the Vyalia since WotI, I do not know. Thanks!!! -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:06:37 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: [Mystara] [Fwd: Elven Level Expansion] Message-ID: <3351DB90.820@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:24:00 -0400 From: Jay Herrington X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mystara Subject: Elven Level Expansion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, Elves were always popular chracters at low levels, but when they reached higher levels and topped out at 10 they were no longer as popular as the human classes, especially wizards. When Dawn of the Emperors came out everyone wanted to be a wizard. With their vast number of spells, and better chances to create magic items and huge magic items, wizards became the class of choice. Now when Mystara became AD&D I looked into converting. When I found out how elves and humans in this system were comparible I liked that. Plus with the Imperial Elven Navy and Evermeet expansions Elves became viable classes again. Now even a topped out elf and a wizard of maximum recommended level are very close. Both seem very popular. If Mystara goes back to OD&D is their any way to convert back over keeping comparible powers at top levels without severly unbalancing the campaign. I didn't like to expanded 36th level for elves in the cyclopedia. Any ideas? Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:05:33 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: [Mystara] [Fwd: Mystarian Spelljammers] Message-ID: <3351D6EB.558A@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:04:12 -0400 From: Jay Herrington X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mystara Subject: Mystarian Spelljammers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I am thinking about incorporating spelljammer into the Mystara camapign. Well, actually the Imperial Elven Navy. I was wondering if any of you guys have any ideas on how to do this effectively. I originallt though about having an elven man-o-war find Mystara, and then do a Princess Ark kind of campaign. Then I was playing with the idea of having Evermeet elves colonize an island on Mystara and making a Mystarian Evermeet, but I was worried about that taking away from the Mystara setting. My latest thought was to have the Minrothad (spelling) water elves start building elven spelljammer ships to open more reliable trade lanes with distant Mystaran countries. Then expand this to other worlds. Now that Mystara is AD&D it isn't as unlikely that the Minrothad elves will discover Toril or other Tsr worlds. The only problem with this is if Wizards of the Coast starts the Mystara campaign up (with any luck) and turns it back to OD&D I will have this huge campaign that is no longer compatible. Not to mention I will have to havd Darokin, Karemekis, Glantri, and Thyatis stats for their spelljammers. I would appreciate any suggestions you guys may have. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:09:48 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] the Vyalia Diego wrote: >I have Gaz 1 and am running a campaign in the eastern reaches of the Karameikos. I was wondering if anyone had information on the Vyalia elves. If some kind soul could tell me what has been printed in other sources I would be much obliged. Also, does anyone know what has happened to the Vyalia since WotI, I do not know. Thanks!!! The Vyalia elves are introduced for the first time in B10: "Night's Dark Terror". Some details from B10: SYMBOL: oak tree with stars on the background. FEATURES: pale skin, green eyes. WEAPONS: swords, long bows. IMPORTANT ELVES: Goriidel (E3 - he's the one who meets the PCs in the adventure). They trade with the miners, dwarfs and gnomes, of the Zargash (spelling) Mountains. They have some contacts with the Ilya sprites, who live on an island in the middle of the Lake of Lost Dreams (I don't know the exact english name), where an evil artefact lies. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:27:41 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] the Vyalia >I have Gaz 1 and am running a campaign in the eastern reaches of the Karameikos. I was wondering if anyone had information on the Vyalia elves. If some kind soul could tell me what has been printed in other sources I would be much obliged. Also, does anyone know what has happened to the Vyalia since WotI, I do not know. Thanks!!! >-Diego More on Vyalia in DotE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:37:14 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wooddrakes On Sat, 12 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-12 03:55:35 EDT, Dennis.Sullivan.Family@worldnet.att.net (Patrick) writes: ><< I'm not sure about OD&D wooddrakes, but in the Dragonlord Trilogy a mmandrake has one human form and one dragon-kin form. >> >And that accords quite well with the information we have about mandrakes in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia and similar sources. But I suppose the real question about woodrakes and coldrakes is -- do each of these creatures have one humanoid form or two? In other words, does a woodrake have an elf form and a halfling form -- or does he just have one or the other? I would say that its one elf, one halfling, one drake. (Or one dwarf, one gnome, one drake) But each form always looks the same. My question is (mostly this is an AD&D question, but it could apply to OD&D as well) do they get the racial abilities of the race they switch to? How about the stat bonuses and penalties? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:49:15 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Vyalia and Belcadiz and Shiye Joe Duncan wrote: >>Regarding Vyalia, i still think they belonged to Verdier elves: the physical appearence is just too close to be a mere "distraction" of the writers. >Not so sure about this one though. My original thought was that they were part of the Verdier, but the Verdier don't have a ToL and the Vyalia clearly do. Is there any mention on when the Vyalia showed up where they are now? Or have they been there longer than the cultures around them? So, that's my guess about Vyalia: they were part of the Verdier but refused to sail across the newly formed Sea of Dread and stayed in their forest. How did they come to have a ToL? My hypothesis is that Callarii elves gave them some saplings of their original Mother Tree to befriend the Vyalia and above all to get the permission to settle in the forest of Traladara. Could it work? Also, about the Shiye, here's another possibility: we know Shiye in Norwold have ToL (Foresthomes described in CM1), but nothing is said about Shiye in alphatia, so here's my idea. When Eiryndul lured the Shiye away from Mealiden, they arrived in Norwold: but he wanted to place them in a much more secluded and far place, so he inspired their leaders to cross the ocean ad land in Alphatia. Some of the elves disagreed with this decision of the clanleaders and split from the Shiye clan, remaining to live in the Norwold forests. They also took the original ToL of the Shiye clan (maybe their leader was the son of the clanleader and the father wanted to give him a chance to live out the Norwold winter...), and Eiryndul was more than happy with this decision, cause this way the Shiye cut the last ties they had with Ilsundal and all the other elves of Brun. Sounds fair? DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:00:08 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Rahasia I don't have that module, but i can suggest an optional setting that can satisfy each part. In real world, the word Rahasyas means the "secret portions" of the Upanisad, and it is an Indian word. I know it is slightly different from the original one, but i think we can place the adventure near the Glantrian-Sindhi border. After all, there are some elves in Sindh, some of the Sheyallia who chose to remain there instead of migrating to Graakhalia IIRC, so the problem is solved. Hope this helps:) DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:59:58 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Wooddrakes Delarius wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-11 06:11:51 EDT, you write: << In PC1 Wooddrakes have the ability to turn into a elf/halfling/human. What i don't understand is: can they change their human/elf/halfling appearence each time they transform or they have 3 fixed identities? >> >The way I interpret it, the wooddrake has only one humanoid identity and it is either a halfling, elf, OR a human (not all three). Each wooddrake has a unique mortal identity that it cannot change . . . this ability is not a limited form of the polymorph spell. >Delarius PC1 says that Wooddrakes can assume a halfling AND an elf form (not a human form, that was my fault, i remember wrong): my only doubt was if they could change those two forms or they were locked to 2 distinct personalities and identities. Also, would they have dresses on them when they change form or would they be naked? and What happens to the magical object they wear in the humanoid form when they change (for example a Ring or a similar item)? DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:28:00 -0700 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] [Fwd: Elven Level Expansion] Jay Herrington wrote: >Postage paid by: [Image] >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Subject: >Message-ID: <3351DB90.820@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:24:00 -0400 >From: Jay Herrington X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: mystara >Subject: Elven Level Expansion >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Hey, >Elves were always popular chracters at low levels, but when they reached higher levels and topped out at 10 they were no longer as popular as the human classes, especially wizards. When Dawn of the Emperors came out everyone wanted to be a wizard. With their vast number of spells, and better chances to create magic items and huge magic items, wizards became the class of choice. NNow when Mystara became AD&D I looked into converting. When I found out how elves and humans in this system were comparible I liked that. Plus with the Imperial Elven Navy and Evermeet expansions Elves became viable classes again. Now even a topped out elf and a wizard of maximum recommended level are very close. Both seem very popular. IIf Mystara goes back to OD&D is their any way to convert back over keeping comparible powers at top levels without severly unbalancing the campaign. I didn't like to expanded 36th level for elves in the cyclopedia. Any ideas? >Jay >John7999@frontiernet.net CHeck out the Elves of Alfheim gazzeteer where you can find rules for elf advancement as mages instead of fighters up to level 20 - -- "I'm caught in a dream And my dream's come true." I was born to love you. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 13:43:14 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Mystara] PRESS RELEASE: Wizards of the Coast to acquire >Think about it, WotC buying TSR could be the best thing for Mystara. WotC (If they buy TSR) is going to be buzy for the next six months. But after settling in with TSR, they'll be looking at the market for what the gamer's want. So I suggest if we want Mystara to breathe again, we get our act together and support Mystara. This is our chance to get everything smoothed out for Mystara... >Want to see better classes, or changes in the rules system, more campaign background, etc... We should get everything we can together, work it out and in a couple months if eveything goes as planned. Mystara back on the selves on your local gaming store. >Its alive, alive !!!! >- Reginald the MageSlayer Excellent idea! We should also find the email addresses of other MYSTARA sites, and encourage them, when the dust settles, to co-operate with us in articulating some suggestions to WotC. This would be for them to consider freely, and should not be worded in such a way as to seem demanding, or intimidating. If we all speak together in one mature, reasonable voice, then Iam sure that WotC will pay attention to us. After all, how many Mystara fans are out there? We're big enough to be heard. Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:57:06 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@AOL.COM Subject: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? its been said by steve miller (ravenloft editor) that in the upcoming ravenloft hardbound there will be a mystaran domain ive been thinking about who the darklord could be the master? mcgregor? barimoor? synn? etc but i dont believe the ravenloft staff would want to include a whole section on immortals explaining what they are and how they are used nor would they want to include a section of new rules for immortal interaction with rl since these people are either questing for immortality and/or have connections to immortals i ruled them out angus mcgregor sounded perfect but without the radiance his character would have to totally change bargle may work but im leaning toward henri d ambreville his deceptive and purely evil schemes he comes up with would fit in nicely with ravenloft last we heard of him he was attempting to travel to another dimension to avoid the effects of etiennes geas spell perhaps if he was granted a domain the dark powers would allow him to survive after breaking the geas or since time moves much slower there he could ignore the effects i just hope a good job is done with this and more intrest in mystara comes out of it it may be our only chance to impress WotC - -Crip ======================== "Yeah, I can still hear some scratchin' inside that tomb. Or maybe is it the maggots? Let's dig!"------Bruce Heard ======================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:47:40 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 Jody Duncan wrote: CCan it run Pong or Space Invaders? :-) Are you suggesting that my gnomish engineers, feverishly working on their sacred clan relic, are actually indulging in forbidden forms of entertainment?!?!?! Blasphemy! ;-) Okay, actually that's a great idea. Only it's probably called "Kobold Attack"! Somehow I can't quite imagine a Gnomish version of Pong, though..... Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:38:38 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wooddrakes On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >Delarius wrote: >>In a message dated 97-04-11 06:11:51 EDT, you write: ><< In PC1 Wooddrakes have the ability to turn into a elf/halfling/human. What >i don't understand is: can they change their human/elf/halfling appearence each time they transform or they have 3 fixed identities? >> >>The way I interpret it, the wooddrake has only one humanoid identity and it is either a halfling, elf, OR a human (not all three). Each wooddrake has a unique mortal identity that it cannot change . . . this ability is not a limited form of the polymorph spell. >>Delarius >PC1 says that Wooddrakes can assume a halfling AND an elf form (not a human form, that was my fault, i remember wrong): my only doubt was if they could change those two forms or they were locked to 2 distinct personalities and identities. Also, would they have dresses on them when they change form or would they be naked? and What happens to the magical object they wear in the humanoid form when they change (for example a Ring or a similar item)? >DM Hmmm, I don't know about the items. That's a good question. Magic Rings, Boots, Etc. all size to the wearer so they should go with them. I'd say they wind up wearing whatever clothing they were before, if they shift to drake while wearing non-magical clothes they get torn to shreds or fall off. I believe most shapeshifters work this way. (Lycanthropes specifically) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:40:30 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: uum, if you only have 24 hrs, how do you do 21 years of calculations required to travel again? I suppose you could do the calculations before you leave, but that's got to be one VERY important 24 hr time period if you're going to spend 42 years studying just to get there and back. Not many people would be willing to waste most of their life (just imagine doing math calculations everyday for the next 42 years!!!) just to visit another time for 24 hours. I wonder how much this power is used, considering there are easier, less time-consuming methods to time-travel, and most of them leave you at the desired destination for as long as you want. I would have thought that as you suggest you need to do 42 years worth of calculations before setting off. As for why it would be used? Well, gnomes have "an impractical curiosity", and this sure does sound impractical. Perhaps the gnome clan is a particularly knowledgable clan, because they send their sages back in time to collect historical information. There are certainly reasons why they would want to use this method of time travel, you just have to think about it a bit. As for why they use it rather than "easier, less time-consuming" methods, presumably they don't know any other way. It follows that the author of that module believed that time-travel should be very, very Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:56:21 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #43 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: be2f1599d88784d022c6580f02efc3ec hard and heavily restricted. If it is much easier in your campaign, just twiddle the numbers a bit. Incidentally, what are these easier quicker methods? (Which clearly lead to the Dark Side... ;-) I have to agree that 42 years of mathematical calculations would get incredibly boring, though! Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:09:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 CRlPTONITE@AOL.COM wrote: >its been said by steve miller (ravenloft editor) that in the upcoming ravenloft hardbound there will be a mystaran domain >ive been thinking about who the darklord could be the master? mcgregor? barimoor? synn? etc Don't forget one of the nastiest villains in Mystara- Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany. Or, for that matter, Thar. My top three guesses are those two and the Master of Hule. >since these people are either questing for immortality and/or have connections to immortals >i ruled them out They could pretty much ignore the Immortals rules, or just mention them in passing. Perhaps Thanatos is one of the dark powers (or is in league with them). >last we heard of him >he was attempting to travel to another dimension to avoid the effects of etiennes geas spell Last I heard, his sister Isabelle destroyed him in a magical duel in Glantri City. (PWA 1012). Does he reappear in Mark of Amber, then? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:47:41 -0500 (EST) From: Mouse Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? >its been said by steve miller (ravenloft editor) that in the upcoming ravenloft hardbound there will be a mystaran domain >ive been thinking about who the darklord could be the master? mcgregor? barimoor? synn? etc but i dont believe the ravenloft staff would want to include a whole section on immortals >explaining what they are and how they are used nor would they want to include a section of new rules for immortal interaction with rl >since these people are either questing for immortality and/or have connections to immortals >i ruled them out >angus mcgregor sounded perfect >but without the radiance his character would have to totally change bargle may work >but im leaning toward henri d ambreville his deceptive and purely evil schemes he comes up with would fit in nicely with ravenloft >last we heard of him >he was attempting to travel to another dimension to avoid the effects of etiennes geas spell >perhaps if he was granted a domain >the dark powers would allow him to survive after breaking the geas or since time moves much slower there >he could ignore the effects Is this definite or just a passing idea that the editor had/has? If it *is* actually included...Kew-L!!!! I not only Dm in Mystara, but I also play in Ravenloft as well. My Ravenloft Dm has been bugging me to give him information on some of the kingdoms of Mystara so he could incorporate/steal them for his own evil and twisted purposes. Looks like I wont be needing to after all....I hope? Since the question has already been asked pertaining to the dark lord, my question will be: which domain(or kingdom) might be compromised? Savage Coast? - -- Mouse Life is pain...!! Anyone who says differently is selling something. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:17:51 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics >As for why they use it rather than "easier, less time-consuming" methods, presumably they don't know any other way. It follows that the author of that module believed that time-travel should be very, very hard and heavily restricted. If it is much easier in your campaign, just twiddle the numbers a bit. Incidentally, what are these easier quicker methods? (Which clearly lead to the Dark Side... ;-) Chronomancy, artifacts, researched spells, the Comeback Inn (granted, it won't get you to a specific time, but it IS a viable method of time travelling), etc. There are probably others, these are right off the top of my head. Yes, I know gnomes might not be able to use all of these methods, but they could probably convince someone else to help them. I would guess that researching and procuring (yes, I am US Gov't employee, can't you tell) any of these obsure magics wouldn't take more than 20 years or so. "Easier" is also relative. I would travel to the ends of the earth and back before I submit to the torture of doing 42 years of math IN MY HEAD. Going on a difficult, dangerous expedition sounds "easier" to me, although technically it can't get much easier than sitting around and thinking all day. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:15:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >is also relative. I would travel to the ends of the earth and back before I submit to the torture of doing 42 years of math IN MY HEAD. Going on a difficult, dangerous expedition sounds "easier" to me, although technically it can't get much easier than sitting around and thinking all day. Somehow I imagine that this activity is far from torturous for the gnomes involved. Like elves nurturing their Tree of Life, dwarves working at their Forge of Power, and hin tending to their Crucible of Blackflame, I would imagine that the intense observation and analysis is a labor of love for the gnomes. For you or me it would be at once both incredibly difficult and incredibly boring, but for the Keeper and his apprentice/assistants I imagine this is an honor, a privilege, and a deeply religious experience. Moreover, 20 years isn't as long a time to devote out of your life if you are a gnome rather than a human. Just my two cogs, ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:15:43 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? >Last I heard, his sister Isabelle destroyed him in a magical duel in Glantri City. (PWA 1012). Does he reappear in Mark of Amber, then? It was actually his sister-in-law Isidore, but yes, he does come back in MoA. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:14:17 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics >Somehow I imagine that this activity is far from torturous for the gnomes involved. Like elves nurturing their Tree of Life, dwarves working at their Forge of Power, and hin tending to their Crucible of Blackflame, I would imagine that the intense observation and analysis is a labor of love for the gnomes. For you or me it would be at once both incredibly difficult and incredibly boring, but for the Keeper and his apprentice/assistants I imagine this is an honor, a privilege, and a deeply religious experience. Moreover, 20 years isn't as long a time to devote out of your life if you are a gnome rather than a human. >Just my two cogs, I absolutely agree with this. After all, the other demihuman artifacts aren't really all THAT powerful for the amount of work they require. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:26:34 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics At 19.47 14/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 Jody Duncan wrote: CCCan it run Pong or Space Invaders? >Okay, actually that's a great idea. Only it's probably called "Kobold Attack"! Why not "Gremlin Invasion" ? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 8:57:10 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics Thorfinn Tait writes: >On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 Jody Duncan wrote: CCCan it run Pong or Space Invaders? >:-) >Are you suggesting that my gnomish engineers, feverishly working on their sacred clan relic, are actually indulging in forbidden forms of entertainment?!?!?! Well, it's just that the Gnomish relic sounds eerily similar to ENIAC and such machines... So Pong can't be far off... :) >Blasphemy! ;-) >Okay, actually that's a great idea. Only it's probably called "Kobold Attack"! Somehow I can't quite imagine a Gnomish version of Pong, though..... Well, Gnomes are known for being strange... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:33:25 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: >On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >>is also relative. I would travel to the ends of the earth and back before I submit to the torture of doing 42 years of math IN MY HEAD. Going on a difficult, dangerous expedition sounds "easier" to me, although technically it can't get much easier than sitting around and thinking all day. >Somehow I imagine that this activity is far from torturous for the gnomes involved. Like elves nurturing their Tree of Life, dwarves working at their Forge of Power, and hin tending to their Crucible of Blackflame, I would imagine that the intense observation and analysis is a labor of love for the gnomes. For you or me it would be at once both incredibly difficult and incredibly boring, but for the Keeper and his apprentice/assistants I imagine this is an honor, a privilege, and a deeply religious experience. Moreover, 20 years isn't as long a time to devote out of your life if you are a gnome rather than a human. >Just my two cogs, Also there is one thing we all missed. After you do the calculations you have the formula for that time, it doesn't say the formula changes, so every 42 years the Gnomes figure out a new time they can jump to, and return. Also you could give the Gnome both formulas when they leave and then tell them to remember to tell the Gnomes to start figuring out the way to get back. As long as he goes more than 42 years back the Gnomes could figure out the formula and tell it to their decendants, allowing the Gnome to know his way back before he leaves. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:55:43 -0600 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: [Mystara] New pages e Magic shop now has a fantasy fonts page at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/fonts.html and a Character Sheet Page at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/Sheets.html - -- "I'm caught in a dream And my dream's come true." I was born to love you. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:21:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? This would have quite some effect on Mystara itself. FFrom what I understand people are taken from their own world and put into a dommain which is similar to their home (though not identical) Their homelands are left empty and uninhabitted. This means that if a glantrian principality if moved into Ravenloft, It will have a major effect on politics in Glantri, right? Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:58:40 -0500 (EST) From: Mouse Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? >This would have quite some effect on Mystara itself. From what I understand people are taken from their own world and put into a dommain which is similar to their home (though not identical) Their homelands are left empty and uninhabitted. This means that if a glantrian principality if moved into Ravenloft, It will have a major effect on politics in Glantri, right? Well from what I've learned from Ravenloft, the land itself (which is evil in nature) invelops other areas that it thinks are evil. So if, in your example, a principality from Glantri were to be targeted the entire principality would be consumed and transported into Ravenloft. Perhaps to the Lands of Core, or one of the other planes of dread? Of course I've not been to see what happens to an area once it has been taken, so I can not say what will remain. Maybe a large black void, or a swirling dark mist? - --Mouse Life is pain...!! Anyone who says differently is selling something. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:10:55 -0500 From: Reg Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? At 06:21 PM 4/15/97 +0200, you wrote: >This would have quite some effect on Mystara itself. FFFrom what I understand people are taken from their own world and put into aa dommain which is similar to their home (though not identical) Their homelands are left empty and uninhabitted. This means that if a glantrian principality if moved into Ravenloft, It will have a major effect on politics in Glantri, right? Actually, I always thought that the evil Personality was pulled into Ravenloft and a facimilie of his/her homeland was created for him/her. All the people from the area are left their. - Reginald the MageSlayer ==================================================== Today would be a good day to die And if I were to do so I would not ask why Life is such a monotony Death, on the other hand, is simple and free But death has an undesirable consequence my friend. It's not that life is so short, Rather, Death has no end. ==================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:19:56 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? >This would have quite some effect on Mystara itself. From what I understand people are taken from their own world and put into a dommain which is similar to their home (though not identical) Their homelands are left empty and uninhabitted. This means that if a glantrian principality if moved into Ravenloft, It will have a major effect on politics in Glantri, right? iirc the mists can appear anywhere and can take one person, a village, a city, etc... i think its variable so it could take a whole pricipality into ravenloft obviously having major effects on glantri and mystara but for someone to become a darklord they have to be in ravenloft then go through the mists on the border of another country if the dark powers choose to they can grant someone their own domain and in doing so create a darklord im not a ravenloft expert hopefully someone else can help me out with this explanation so ravenloft may take an important npc AND take an important piece of land imagine a principality leaving mystara or darokin city leaving or aegmoor leaving many npcs and pcs could be sucked into ravenloft allowing many new adventures in both worlds ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:16:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Mouse wrote: >>This would have quite some effect on Mystara itself. From what I understand people are taken from their own world and put into a dommain which is similar to their home (though not identical) Their homelands are left empty and uninhabitted. This means that if a glantrian principality if moved into Ravenloft, It will have a major effect on politics in Glantri, right? >Well from what I've learned from Ravenloft, the land itself (which is evil in nature) invelops other areas that it thinks are evil. So if, in your example, a principality from Glantri were to be targeted the entire principality would be consumed and transported into Ravenloft. Perhaps to the Lands of Core, or one of the other planes of dread? >Of course I've not been to see what happens to an area once it has been taken, so I can not say what will remain. Maybe a large black void, or a swirling dark mist? I believe there is a realm in Ravenloft which is from the world of Dark Sun. Now Ive got only second hand information on this, but from what I have heard the same area in the Dark Sun world is described as an empty city of ruins... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:46:52 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: CChronomancy, artifacts, researched spells, the Comeback Inn (granted, it won't get you to a specific time, but it IS a viable method of time travelling), etc. There are probably others, these are right off the top of my head. Yes, I know gnomes might not be able to use all of these methods, but they could probably convince someone else to help them. I would guess that researching and procuring (yes, I am US Gov't employee, can't you tell) any of these obsure magics wouldn't take more than 20 years or so. "Easier" is also relative. I would travel to the ends of the earth and back before I submit to the torture of doing 42 years of math IN MY HEAD. Going on a difficult, dangerous expedition sounds "easier" to me, although technically it can't get much easier than sitting around and thinking all day. Actually gnomes are probably quite capable of using those methods themselves, since they can be both shamans and wiccas... Anyway, as I said, remember that this method of time travel is obviously designed for one in which time travelling is nigh impossible (like mine to date). Although I'm very interested in using time-travel... is the Chronomancer AD&D accessory worth looking into for this? Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #43 **************************** Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:56:23 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #44 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, April 16 1997 Volume 02 : Number 044 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:08:41 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz At 17.33 13/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >Her name is Victoria, aunt to Dona Leontina and mother to Blanca and Carmina. Just out of curiosity, could you provide us a translation of what the Italian version says about her? The English version reads as follows: >"Victoria (E9, L, witch of the 2nd circle) is the clan's oldest member, and is Dona Leontina's aunt and the Treekeeper. She is the mother of Blanca and Carmina." The Italian version says the same, except that the words "and the Treekeeper" are missed. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:17:30 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Projects Does anyone have a list of the projects currently being carried out by list members? It would be nice to know who's working on what and who is developing which area, etc., so that we overlap other people's work as little as possible. I'm thinking of developing a region of the Hollow World, and I want to know if anyone is already developing there before I choose where. (I already know Mischa is developing the Kogolor Lands). Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:27:14 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Nithian History Hi, I've been working on trying to sort out the history given in the Kingdom of Nithia HWR into some sort of linear timeline, and I've come across a problem. The history states that there are four Pharaohs (Kepher, Tur-Ah, Aten-Ah and Kifara) before the Entwining, and then that the first Pharaoh after the Entwining is Rasiris. He is followed by his son Ramose, who is followed by HIS son Ramose (II), then Ramose III, and finally Ramose IV in the present day (which for the purposes of my timeline is still AC 1000). The problem here is that this history accounts for all of the time since Nithia entered the Hollow World - 1500 years - but with only NINE Pharaohs in that time. This in itself would not be a problem in D&D, since it is possible for humans to live for the required length of time for this to work. However, other past Pharaohs are referred to later in the book (notably Karnak and Hutaatep), as well as a reference to "the ninth and tenth dynasties". There thus seems to be an inherent flaw built into the history. Does anyone have any ideas for solving this, or has anyone found something I missed in my analysis? Bruce, you were Product Manager on this, would you be able to suggest any neat way to clear up this incontinuity? Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:30:47 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Hollow World Is there anyone on the list who is currently (or has previously been) adventuring or DMing in the Hollow World? I'm about to start a HW-based campaign, and I was wondering if anyone had any tips or material of their own making to offer as advice? Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:40:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian History >I've been working on trying to sort out the history given in the Kingdom of Nithia HWR into some sort of linear timeline, and I've come across a problem. >The history states that there are four Pharaohs (Kepher, Tur-Ah, Aten-Ah and Kifara) before the Entwining, and then that the first Pharaoh after the Entwining is Rasiris. He is followed by his son Ramose, who is followed by HIS son Ramose (II), then Ramose III, and finally Ramose IV in the present day (which for the purposes of my timeline is still AC 1000). >The problem here is that this history accounts for all of the time since Nithia entered the Hollow World - 1500 years - but with only NINE Pharaohs in that time. This in itself would not be a problem in D&D, since it is possible for humans to live for the required length of time for this to work. However, other past Pharaohs are referred to later in the book (notably Karnak and Hutaatep), as well as a reference to "the ninth and tenth dynasties". >There thus seems to be an inherent flaw built into the history. Does anyone have any ideas for solving this, or has anyone found something I missed in my analysis? Two suggestions: 1)Ignore the presence of other past Pharoahs and dynasties, which would be rather easy to do. Don't even remember Karnak or the dynasty mention and the Hutaatep adventure is just plain silly IMO.. or 2)Place the other pharoahs pre-entwining..I don't think they would really fit in otherwise..I see the move of the capital as *fairly* recent and the event as the major change in the Hollow World..how many major changes can you have inside the Spell of Preservation anyways? Well, both ideas say to ignore some of the information given but the Nithian book wasnt all that well written or worked-out I think. Besides, it's our world to play with :) The Reagan and Bush administrations borrowed more money than all the previous US administrations combined. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:12:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? In a message dated 97-04-15 00:09:33 EDT, jsmill@IMAP1.ASU.EDU (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: << Last I heard, his sister Isabelle destroyed him in a magical duel in Glantri City. (PWA 1012). Does he reappear in Mark of Amber, then? >> Yep. Synn brings him back from the dead to do more mischief. Now there is a real candidate for Ravenloft -- Synn herself! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:26:47 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler Here's something that just occurred to me today, that I thought I'd share. Fabrizio, I thought I'd pose this to you in particular (as well as the list in general) since it deals with the Shadowelves, and ties in with the 'noids. Basically, it comes down to this: According to PWA 1012, the SE caverns are located app. 6,000 ft below the surface of Mystara. The Great Crater that is created by the meteor of 1006 is described as creating a hole 'several miles deep' (nothing more specific that I've yet seen; will check G: CoM later, though.) The dilemma is this: assuming several miles to mean 2 or more, we are left with a hole app. 10,000 feet deep (on the low end). The depths of this crater would open up into Shadowelf territory below Mystara. Assumption #1) 6000 ft below ground is an estimate (say, the City of Stars is 6000 feet below), with the other caverns of the SE territories being above or below that (I doubt the SE caverns are entirely level). Assumption #2) Point of impact of the meteor is Corran Keep, in the Silver Sierra Mts (I think, whatever). I don't recall the height of the mtns offhand, but lets say 2-3 thousand feet above sea level, at least. Conclusion: Adding #1 and #2, we are still stuck with the conclusion that the lowest depths of the Great Crater sink well into SE territory, opening up in the northwesternmost regions of the SE's realm. Can we say 'noid and SE hostilities? The Great Crater becomes a very strategic location for Glantrian forces (to protect against possible hostile SE forces), as well as SE forces underground. Discuss. :) Another note. Several miles deep. The Nucleus of the Spheres, IIRC, is located 10,000 ft. below Glantri City. With the depths opened up by the Crater, and the exposed caverns nearby, a possible proximity to the NoS is achieved. Possibly even radiation leakage into nearby caverns... hmm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:43:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: >The dilemma is this: assuming several miles to mean 2 or more, we are left with a hole app. 10,000 feet deep (on the low end). The depths of this crater would open up into Shadowelf territory below Mystara. I think the best thing to do is just reduce the depth of the crater. It would take a HUGE meteor to creat a crater 10,000 feet deep. Perhaps several miles deep means it is several miles from the edge of the crater to the center, accounting both depth and width of crater. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:49:32 +0800 (WST) From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ravenloft realms >I believe there is a realm in Ravenloft which is from the world of Dark Sun. Now Ive got only second hand information on this, but from what I have heard the same area in the Dark Sun world is described as an empty city of ruins... In one dragon magazine it mentions these ruins, and what happens when a new realm appears in Ravenloft. I belive all sentient life is transported to the new realm, and all other things (objects, non-sentient life) is copied into the new realm. Glenn - -- 'For a copper!' [Battle cry of Lynard the elemaster] knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au Home page: http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ finger -l for pgp public key ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:06:37 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler On 15 Apr 97 at 20:26, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old On wrote: [snippage] >Basically, it comes down to this: According to PWA 1012, the SE caverns are located app. 6,000 ft below the surface of Mystara. The Great Crater that is created by the meteor of 1006 is described as creating a hole 'several miles deep' (nothing more specific that I've yet seen; will check G: CoM later, though.) [and more snippage] After semi-recent discussions on crater impacts and destructive capability on rec.arts.sf.science, the only reason I can think of that a meteor impact 'several miles deep' didn't obliterate all life on the continent would be because a) the ground in that region had the consistency of thick fog, b) that the area was so *riddled* with underground passages, caves, labyrinths, etc that it acted like an enormous airbag, c) Immortal intervention, d) fantasy physics, or even e) all of the above. :) I suppose there's also f) 'actually a few hundred feet deep', but that doesn't sound so impressive (unless you're actually there, of course). The tear in the Skyshield would've been something to see as well... Wonder if the Immortals ever bothered to check on just how that meteor got there. You'd think they'd be on the lookout for large meteors and the like, seeing as how such objects can put a really big dent in the number of followers you have... - -- Shane (sleep@tpgi.com.au) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:46:49 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? >This would have quite some effect on Mystara itself. Thinking about this I became even more sure that Henry isn't suitable for ravenloft. Further on, I dont think he's evil enough, not in the right way. I would't use McGregor nor Goreviz-Wozlany either )even though I think the first would suit greatly to Ravenloft) because we need them in Mystara still. And also because A. McGregor is immortal in my campaing allready (Became one I think in 1017-18) even though hes still staying put in Glantri and because I dont think Alphaks woud like if someone took he's Morphail away. Neither would I use Synn, because I don't think She has style enough. After all, world is full of strange evil monsters, and they dont get caught into Ravenloft either. Nor would Thar suit. He is after all only a Orc. One of the greater, but still an orc. rather, I think the perfect candidate from Mystara to Ravenloft is the great and evil, even though a bit grazy Prince Innocenti Di'Malapietra. he is everything Ravenloft needs. Cunning, evil and powerful. further on, there isn't I think any "Italian" realms in Rvenloft yet. So The New Gaurenze would be something different from the old realms of Ravenloft. And also Innocenti would be a different kind of ruler. Soft and weak human with only he's earthly magics and his poisons and cloaks. But still powerful and paranoid enough to suvive. You know, Earthly magic re quite powerful against undead and such. Innocenti's realm would be one of political itrique, murders, machiavellism and bootlicking. And paranoia. And further on, as an added bonus, Innocenti is the easiest one to take from Mystara. He is alone in his destroyed realm, with only his fears and chosts from his past. Nobody would need him, or ask about his dissappearance. What do you think folks? Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:07:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Shane wrote: >After semi-recent discussions on crater impacts and destructive capability on rec.arts.sf.science, the only reason I can think of that a meteor impact 'several miles deep' didn't obliterate all life on the continent would be because a) the ground in that region had the consistency of thick fog, b) that the area was so *riddled* with underground passages, caves, labyrinths, etc that it acted like an enormous airbag, c) Immortal intervention, d) fantasy physics, or even e) all of the above. :) Or, the all important f) the designers didn't really take that into account, nor did they take into account the possible ramifications (ie, the SE/GC crossover). Sad, really. :( >I suppose there's also f) 'actually a few hundred feet deep', but that doesn't sound so impressive (unless you're actually there, of course). The tear in the Skyshield would've been something to see as well... Hmmm... then change mine to g). :) >Wonder if the Immortals ever bothered to check on just how that meteor got there. You'd think they'd be on the lookout for large meteors and the like, seeing as how such objects can put a really big dent in the number of followers you have... :) I can just see it. Faunus and Eiryndul are hanging out in Pandius, drinking. "Say, old goat, you see somethin' big an' flamin' suddenly appear above Mystara?" "'S prolly jusht Ixshion, lettin' off shome shteam 'r shomethin..." "Yeh... he's been kinda testy lately. Pass the bottle, willya?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:50:39 PDT From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: [Mystara] TSR artwork Here's the last mail I received from TSR concerning artwork on my homepage (this whole mess began a week ago). << Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:33:09 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRInc@aol.com To: herve@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Copyrighted artwork on your web site Since you are being so uncooperative, I am forced to contact the postmaster of your mail host and the webmaster of your web site. - -- Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://www.tsrinc.com As you all know, TSR artwork on my homepage is just one picture (which I don't even know if it's property of TSR, Sean never answered me on this) and 4 times the Mystara logo. I have told Sean I can't update my homepage that easily, since I have to physically go to school to do that (and take half a day off from work). That's even written on the first page of my web site. It seems the empire is striking back, again. And this time it fell on us Mystara fans who are trying to keep this world alive despite its cancellation by TSR. Well, it fell on me, but I fear all of you who have Mystara pages will shortly be in the same case. PS : Bruce, I hope this whole mess isn't your fault, because it began one day or two after we talked about my homepage. Herve Musseau Primary Email: herve@hotmail.com (use this one) Also: musseauh@esiee.fr (old, checked once a month till July) Also: hmusseau@compuserve.com (at work, I prefer hotmail) Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh (till July) I'm a QSQWBEEEGGNFR Mystaran - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:19:19 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? >And further on, as an added bonus, Innocenti is the easiest one to take from Mystara. He is alone in his destroyed realm, with only his fears and chosts from his past. Nobody would need him, or ask about his dissappearance. >What do you think folks? i think hed be a good choice too though i dont think the ravenloft people care if nobody needs or misses him after all they took lord soth away from dragonlance and nothing new about mystara is coming out anyways i really dont care who they take i hope its someone important who non-mystara players enjoy using from what ive heard ravenloft is now the best selling ad&d world an intrest in mystara by them would definatly help wotc decide to bring mystara back - ---crip ======================== "Yeah, I can still hear some scratchin' inside that tomb. Or maybe is it the maggots? Let's dig!"------Bruce Heard ======================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:31:24 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: The Fate of TSR was(Re: [Mystara] TSR is being sold!!) At 05:20 PM 4/12/97 +0200, you wrote: >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Deathwatch wrote: >>Lets hope WoC will make more Mystara products, and hope that they won't go on making everything Forgotten Realms (not that I don't like that world, but I like to have more worlds. When they changed Dragonlance to that stupid SAGA system, it sucked too...) >I enjoy the new dragonlace setting and the SAGA system. The fact that TSR tried something new rather than the old and IMHO crappy ad&d system is commendable. What the heck is the Saga system anyway? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:31:34 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts At 06:14 PM 4/12/97 +0200, you wrote: >>I am new to the list, but I think Gareth sounds alot like the immortal Beneker (speling). After all he was opposed to all immortals throughtout the entire WoI adventure. This would also be a perfect way for a new immortal to attract followers from mortals who had seen their families and countries destroyed by a world war influenced by immortals. >>Jay >Gareth mentioned >having returned from the Vortex. This may just be a lie ofcouse, but this was what fascinated me most about him. I think he has some sonnection with the Old Ones. He may even be an Old One himself. He could be the one acting in WotI. I dont think those actions were too much like what I would expect from an Old One. He could be a renegade (renegade Old Ones, now thats scary) >Any thoughts on this? Gareth is the creation of one of the people on this list right? He can't be found in any of the canon? Sorry to ask this again but I'm getting very confused by people talking like he's in the canon, but the last time I asked about him, I was told he was just a creation of one of the list members... Thanks! P.S. any background info would help too... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:49:20 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz At 10:08 PM 4/15/97 +0200, you wrote: >At 17.33 13/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Her name is Victoria, aunt to Dona Leontina and mother to Blanca and Carmina. Just out of curiosity, could you provide us a translation of what the Italian version says about her? The English version reads as follows: >>"Victoria (E9, L, witch of the 2nd circle) is the clan's oldest member, and is Dona Leontina's aunt and the Treekeeper. She is the mother of Blanca and Carmina." >The Italian version says the same, except that the words "and the Treekeeper" are missed. Possibly by the time the Italian edition came out, they'd realized that the Belcadiz didn't have a ToL and left that part out on purpose... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:17:59 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts IIRC, Gareth first appeared in the first PWA. That makes him a creation of Aaron Alston and (somewhat) canon. (I've isolated in my bookcase the TSR products that don't provide good, immediately-playable adventures or provide background for same without the application of a crowbar. The PWAs fall into that category - no adventures and no background for other published adventures.) I am unaware the Aaron participates on the list. >At 06:14 PM 4/12/97 +0200, you wrote: >Gareth is the creation of one of the people on this list right? He can't be found in any of the canon? Sorry to ask this again but I'm getting very confused by people talking like he's in the canon, but the last time I asked about him, I was told he was just a creation of one of the list members... Thanks! >P.S. any background info would help too... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:34:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts Joe Duncan pontificated: >Gareth is the creation of one of the people on this list right? He can't be found in any of the canon? Sorry to ask this again but I'm getting very confused by people talking like he's in the canon, but the last time I asked about him, I was told he was just a creation of one of the list members... Thanks! >P.S. any background info would help too... He is canon, appeared in PWAs. Don't remember exactly which one, I think the second and the third. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:32:09 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Joe Duncan wrote: >Gareth is the creation of one of the people on this list right? He can't be found in any of the canon? Sorry to ask this again but I'm getting very confused by people talking like he's in the canon, but the last time I asked about him, I was told he was just a creation of one of the list members... Thanks! >P.S. any background info would help too... He is canon. He appeared in the PWAs, being the patron for a new sect in Sind. I don't have the books with me now, but I believe you can find his first appearance inthe timeline of PWA I (or was it PWA II?). Andre Martins ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:56:25 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Belcadiz At 14.49 16/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>Her name is Victoria, aunt to Dona Leontina and mother to Blanca and Carmina. Just out of curiosity, could you provide us a translation of what the Italian version says about her? The English version reads as follows: >>>"Victoria (E9, L, witch of the 2nd circle) is the clan's oldest member, and is Dona Leontina's aunt and the Treekeeper. She is the mother of Blanca and Carmina." >>The Italian version says the same, except that the words "and the Treekeeper" are missed. >Possibly by the time the Italian edition came out, they'd realized that the Belcadiz didn't have a ToL and left that part out on purpose... Well, this could be a good idea, but, seeing how they translated the Gaz, I don't think those italian translators are so smart :) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:47:50 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-16 12:21:24 EDT, Herve writes: << Here's the last mail I received from TSR concerning artwork on my homepage (this whole mess began a week ago). >> etc... snip for length. And since you want to carry on the discussion in this mailing group... Fact #1, these graphic elements are copyrighted and you had no authorization to use them on your web site. Fact #2, whether Mystara is not presently in print does not make it right for you to use copyrighted or trademarked material as you see fit. Fact #3, whether it is inconvenient for your to remove said offending material remains your problem entirely. Fact #4, *your* lack of cooperation and complete disregard of copyrights (ours and others on your site) just makes it tougher for everyone else who's interested in supporting Mystara (and other favorite properties) and thus gain any kind of support from the actual owners of above-mentioned properties. Thanks alot Herve. Everyone really needed this. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:51:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Joe Duncan wrote: >Gareth is the creation of one of the people on this list right? Nope. He was created by Ann Dupuis, designer of PWAs 1012 and 1013, and Joshuan's Almanac. He first shows up in PWA 1012, when he reveals himself to two Sindhi folk, Anand Brishnapur and Sitara Rohini (actually, come to think of it, he might appear to all sorts of folk with his message...) Basically, his message is, "I am Gareth, recently returned from the Vortex. I am appalled at what I have found. Follow me to a future where mortals are not the playthings of the Immortals" or something like that. Speculation runs from- a) he is an Old One, b) he is an old Immortal who disappeared into the Vortex long ago, c) He is Benekander, d) he is a nefarious Immortal (possibly Loki) who is trying a new tactic to gain followers and institute his designs. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:57:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Shane wrote: >I suppose there's also f) 'actually a few hundred feet deep', but that doesn't sound so impressive (unless you're actually there, of course). The tear in the Skyshield would've been something to see as well... I just checked G: KoM last night. At it's center, the crater is apparently 2 miles deep. Of course, I also checked the altitudes of the Silver Sierras and they are much higher than I postulated (call me dumb). They range about 17,000 feet high, on average. Given this, I suppose it's possible that the Crater really doesn't go too far underground, mainly being a big vally in the SS's. Anyone know offhand the altitude of Glantri above sea level? And if the height of the SS mts is given as a height above sea level, or as a height above the regular Glantri terrain? Regardless, that's still one huge crater... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:24:40 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork >Fact #2, whether Mystara is not presently in print does not make it right for you to use copyrighted or trademarked material as you see fit. This is the point that always gets me. Isn't TSR being incredibly heavy-handed with this? I mean, they gave it up, they quit using it, and then they threaten the fans who wish to continue using it? Do they really hate Mystara and it's fans that much? If it was a current copyright, I'd understand. By why should TSR care about Mystara anymore? No matter what anyone does with the Mystara material TSR can't possibly see it as any kind of financial threat, as they've already deemed Mystara unprofitable. So why are they taking such a heavy handed threatening approach? (this applies to Wizards Of The Coast too if they act the same way) >Thanks alot Herve. Everyone really needed this. >Bruce Heard - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:08:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >Basically, it comes down to this: According to PWA 1012, the SE caverns are located app. 6,000 ft below the surface of Mystara. The Great Crater that is created by the meteor of 1006 is described as creating a hole 'several miles deep' (nothing more specific that I've yet seen; will check G: CoM later, though.) It was always my understanding that the City of the Stars cavern was 600 MILES below the surface of Mystara. I think it says that in GAZ13. The rest of the Shadow Elf lands obviously can't be THAT much higher or lower, so if this is correct then there is less than no problem here. Thorfinn ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:45:16 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] Some Gareth Thoughts Joe Duncan wrote: >At 06:14 PM 4/12/97 +0200, you wrote: >>>I am new to the list, but I think Gareth sounds alot like the immortal Beneker (speling). After all he was opposed to all immortals throughtout the entire WoI adventure. This would also be a perfect way for a new immortal to attract followers from mortals who had seen their families and countries destroyed by a world war influenced by immortals. >>>Jay >>Gareth mentioned >>having returned from the Vortex. This may just be a lie ofcouse, but this was what fascinated me most about him. I think he has some sonnection with the Old Ones. He may even be an Old One himself. He could be the one acting in WotI. I dont think those actions were too much like what I would expect from an Old One. He could be a renegade (renegade Old Ones, now thats scary) >>Any thoughts on this? >Gareth is the creation of one of the people on this list right? He can't be found in any of the canon? Sorry to ask this again but I'm getting very confused by people talking like he's in the canon, but the last time I asked about him, I was told he was just a creation of one of the list members... Thanks! >P.S. any background info would help too... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >"Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca >cq793@freenet.carleton.ca >ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca >----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gareth was first brought out in Poor Wizards Almanac #2 and he was also mentioned in PWA #3 also. Look in those two books to find out about Gareth. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:11:09 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: [Mystara] Casting Spells Hello, Okay, I have a little senario for you guys. Say a wizard is in a fight with a red dragon. The wizard has a spell running that will absorb 25 points of damage. Thw wizard starts to cast a spell, but he losses iniative. The dragon breathes fire on the wizard before he can get his spell off. Now the damage will be 40 points if he fails his save. The wizard makes the save, so he only takes 20 points of damage. Now, the spell that the wizard has runnibg absorbs all this damage, and the wizard still has 5 points of protection left. The way I understand saving throws they are just simple ways to determine if a chracter make it out of the way of some danger. Understanding this even though the wizard made his save, and took no damage; does the wizard still lose the spell that he was in the process of casting. I think that jumping out of the way of a fireball would interfere with his comcentration, or is this not how the rule was meant. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:21:38 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >It was always my understanding that the City of the Stars cavern was 600 MILES below the surface of Mystara. I think it says that in GAZ13. The rest of the Shadow Elf lands obviously can't be THAT much higher or lower, so if this is correct then there is less than no problem here. Actually, this is contradicted in PWA 1012, in the entry under Shadowelves (Territories of). It says the SE caverns are 6000 feet below the surface of Mystara. The first 2 PWA's make it 600 miles, presuming that the gravity effect in the Cavern of Stars is part of the Worldshield effect. (Also, IIRC, it never mentions in GAZ13 that they are 600 miles below. It says the City of stars is a few thousand feet below Trollhattan, though. I think the 600 miles thing came about in the HW boxed set.) I think the correction was made for a couple of reasons: 1) If the Cavern of Stars were located within the WorldShield (as it would be if it were 600 miles below surface), then it would be in the midst of magical, molten lava; the substance of the World-Shield itself. 2) If the SE were really 600 _miles_ underground, I find it very hard to belive that they would ever give a rat's butt about the surface elves, nor would they be able to keep in very close contact with them (Aengmor), nor would they be able to so quickly send their troops to take over the city of Aengmor in the Broken Lands. 600 miles is quite a long distance, really. Particularly when you are dealing with otherwise solid rock between areas. (Hell, I'm only just beginning to realize exactly how high the Atruaghin Plateau- at 2700 feet!- is. Imagine the logistics of trying to take that thing on? I'm really sure the Tiger Clan wages war with the Bear and Elk Clans atop that thing... sheesh.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:26:41 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork At 08:24 PM 4/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Fact #2, whether Mystara is not presently in print does not make it right for you to use copyrighted or trademarked material as you see fit. >This is the point that always gets me. Isn't TSR being incredibly heavy-handed with this? I mean, they gave it up, they quit using it, and then they threaten the fans who wish to continue using it? Do they really hate Mystara and it's fans that much? If it was a current copyright, I'd understand. By why should TSR care about Mystara anymore? No matter what anyone does with the Mystara material TSR can't possibly see it as any kind of financial threat, as they've already deemed Mystara unprofitable. So why are they taking such a heavy handed threatening approach? I think this is a "where do you draw the line" issue. If they start letting people get away with using their material without permission, then everybody will think it's okay. Yes, they gave up publishing it, but they still OWN it. Just think if you wrote a book and spent all kinds of money to get it published. A few years down the line, I think you'd still want to own it. Even if you don't collect any money from it, you'd probably still want to have control of where it is being used. Sure, I don't think you'd mind if a few friendly people used it without asking, but what if some not-so-friendly people (say, the anti-AD&D people) used it out of context to prove something totally opposite from what you intended. You would really have no grounds to stop them, because you let others use it without permission. Here's a more current example: Huerve's picture (I'm assuming it's the red one with the wizard). If TSR does not enforce it's copyrights, it risks being considered public domain (this exact thing happened years ago to Coca Cola...They didn't enforce their copyright on the word COLA, so now we have pepsi cola, RC cola, Sam's Choice cola, etc.). TSR paid money (I assume, or else it wouldn't be an issue) for that picture, and if they lose it to "public domain" then they're out any royalties that the picture might have produced. Although I feel it's a shame that Huerve has to get rid of that nice picture from his page, I understand TSR's position. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu You'd better check me on this, but I have heard that if you take someone else's picture and alter it, it then becomes yours. This happens frequently with photographs. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #44 **************************** Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:01:13 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #45 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: e0f6859be7e9f8035599ce063f5706cf mystara-digest Thursday, April 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 045 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 22:38:47 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Casting Spells Jay Herrington writes: >Hello, >Okay, I have a little senario for you guys. Say a wizard is in a fight with a red dragon. The wizard has a spell running that will absorb 25 points of damage. Thw wizard starts to cast a spell, but he losses iniative. The dragon breathes fire on the wizard before he can get his spell off. Now the damage will be 40 points if he fails his save. The wizard makes the save, so he only takes 20 points of damage. Now, the spell that the wizard has runnibg absorbs all this damage, and the wizard still has 5 points of protection left. TThe way I understand saving throws they are just simple ways to determine if a chracter make it out of the way of some danger. Understanding this even though the wizard made his save, and took no damage; does the wizard still lose the spell that he was in the process of casting. I think that jumping out of the way of a fireball would interfere with his comcentration, or is this not how the rule was meant. Saving throws are meant to be an active way of saving your ass. The character actually has to do something to make a save. So yeah, it would ruin his spell. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:11:44 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris At 04:18 PM 4/8/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 DM wrote: WWWell, personally i dunno know how she sould have done this. I mean, why did ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Ye seem t' be spickin' Scottish here, buy. ;-) >>And who confined her to Cestia? >Wasn't Synn on Oceania, not Cestia? >Thorfinn. >PS - I bet none of you can pronounce "buy" properly. ;-) Och, aye? I didnae mention earlier, my Ma's Scottish, and I've been in Scotland before. I bet ye I can pronounce it. ;) She used to live in Edinburgh as well, but now we're in the US. Maybe we're visiting my grandmother this summer though, who lives in East Linton. What do you think of the Scottish culture in Glantri? IIRC, they should have more water about. If people don't like that one gazeeteer (Minrothad or Ierendi, I forget), maybe a Scottish civilization there would be more realistic... or maybe closer to the northern reaches. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:15:39 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Classes >Elves have keen hearing and eyesight which allow them to more easily find secret doors and, depending on your system and campaign, hear noises better, and see things clearly at a greater range. On the flip side, IMC, they have a penalty to saves vs. blinding lights (e.g. light spell) and deafening sounds (e.g. horn of blasting or a Traldar vocal's shout) since those senses are so sensitive. Hey that's a neat idea! Perhaps that's also another reason why many elves prefer the nice tranquil forest to those noisy human cities... P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:20:51 +1000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork ><< Here's the last mail I received from TSR concerning artwork on my homepage (this whole mess began a week ago). >> >etc... snip for length. >And since you want to carry on the discussion in this mailing group... FFact #1, these graphic elements are copyrighted and you had no authorization to use them on your web site. FFact #2, whether Mystara is not presently in print does not make it right for you to use copyrighted or trademarked material as you see fit. FFact #3, whether it is inconvenient for your to remove said offending material remains your problem entirely. >Fact #4, *your* lack of cooperation and complete disregard of copyrights (ours and others on your site) just makes it tougher for everyone else who's interested in supporting Mystara (and other favorite properties) and thus gain any kind of support from the actual owners of above-mentioned properties. Would you also suggest, Bruce, that anyone with a homepage place little TM's and R's after the relevant words when they appear on the homepage. Also would it be a good idea for us to to the same on the mailing list. Sorry to take this approach and sorry especially because this may be seen as a personal attack at you - it isn't (though listing a number of "facts" like you did is not an endearing quality). I mean TSR would also have their position greatly improved if they hit all the homepages at the same time, the fact they didn't do this isn't terribly nice or even fair. Also the heavy handed way that Sean Reynolds came down on Herve is a bit much. I mean the homepage has been there with those images for a long time, then he comes along and gives him not enough time to remove the images. Apart from perhaps the obvious answer what is the immediate rush for Sean Reynolds to tell Herve to get the images off his page - and even if the answer is the obvious one is Sean Reynolds the correct person to be doing what he's doing. >Thanks alot Herve. Everyone really needed this. What. Are you blaming Herve for something here? Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:28:49 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timeline At 04:58 AM 4/3/97 +0100, you wrote: >Hi. >Years and years ago I entered all of the timeline data from all the gazetteers, DotE, the Hollow World sets and the Creature Crucibles into a database. It ended up I think something like 16000 words, ad incidentally I credit it with increasing my typing speed a very great deal. :-) >I just found it in my hard disk a few weeks ago, and I was wondering if it would be helpful to other people too. I am just in the process of bringing it up to date and putting in the sources for all of the information. Once that is done, it ought to be a complete timeline of all of the official D&D Mystara sources [that I have access to]. This could be invaluable for people conducting research into certain races, etc., and wanting all of the official information before they start grafting new bits on. This sounds interesting. Daniel Boese has also made a Mystara timeline, perhaps they should be compared, to see if there are any errors in either... P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:39:43 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tavern Tour At 11:43 PM 4/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >>This Glantri tour is a great idea, but maybe we should expand it, into a guide to the taverns and foods of all countries. Maybe a lot of detail for Glantri would be nice, but *everywhere* adventurers go, it's nice to know about the >> local taverns, food, & drink. But if you have campaign for a long time in one area, >>maybe not. So, we could focus on Glantri now and do the other countries as separate projects later. As for me, I don't really care. What do the rest of you think? >I'd say Glantri will probably be enough work for one almanac, but this sort of project is a great idea, and I, for one, would like to eventually see it expanded into other areas as well. That sounds good. Like they take a trip to a new country each time. I sure wish they did the Shady Dragon Inn and stuff like this project instead of just a ton of npcs. Oh well, that just leaves it up to the list. :) >>BTW did are you going to post your tavern soon Patrick? :) SSorry. I left Tuesday afternoon to spend the night with my grandparents and didn't end up returning home until Friday evening, so it got slightly delayed;) Here we go (in Joshuan's words, and in Estin. not Kern): Not that I wanted you to rush, I was curious about it... [journal cut] Wow! I didn't expect anything like that. It does reek of humanity, doesn't it? :( (I'm just feeling pessimistic right now after reading something about "Industrial Society and its Future") I guess they're going to want to tell people places they *shouldn't* go as well. Except dms can get pcs to go to these sorts of places and have a heck of a time. heh heh heh... P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 23:50:50 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris David Melik writes: >have more water about. If people don't like that one gazeeteer (Minrothad Speaking of Minrothad, I don't have the gaz for it, but it seems to be some kind of a merchant nation, isn't that a little redundant with Darokin? I mean TWO merchant nations in such a small area? Can anyone give me brief run-down of what the Minrothad Gaz is like ( and possibly where I might buy a spare one... ) Thanks! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:48:08 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Books as inspiration At 02:02 PM 4/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >>just finished reading Harry Harrison's Hammer & The Cross Trilogy which has been a great inspiration (as well as a riveting read) about aalternative >>clerics in the medieval Norse regions of Mystara. Also I have found the FFalco >>books by Lindsey Davis excellent sources for Imperial Rome (i.e. TThyatis). >>Has anyone else read any books that are not directly related to D&D that aare >>useful sources of information? >One series that I have very successfully incorporated into Mystara is Lloyd Alexander's Vesper Holly Adventures. They are short juvenile fiction, fairly simplistic, but very well-written. They are easy reading, and three of them came in handy in my campaign. The first book, is set in a fictional version of Albania in the 1890s. The land is plagued by conflict between Ottoman newcomers and Slavic peasants. I placed this area in Western Karameikos, where I have made the conflict between Thyatian settlers (primarily from the area around Tel Akbir) and Traladarans more intense than elsewhere. The background stories in this novel provide great atmosphere for an area that TSR left pretty much empty. >I strongly recommend that you read at least this book. Don't be embarassed because it's a kids' book; that means that it won't take very long for you to read it:) >Patrick Also, read The Chronicles of Prydain, also by him! When I read it I enjoyed it the most of all fantasy series, even more than The Lord of The Rings! TLoR is indeed much better in some ways, but it's also more for younger readers, and so it's not so hard to read like Tolkien sometimes is. They're pretty different though, and perhaps shouldn't even be compared, but it's a great series. I wonder where it could be placed. It's a Welsh setting, so I guess in Glantri near the Scottish one... if there isn't a Welsh setting there already. Of course, you could use info from it there. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:55:27 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris >Well, personally i dunno know how she sould have done this. I mean, why did she go that far and didn't establish a cult in a near place (for example in Davania) Also, how could the Idris follower free her? And who confined her to Cestia? I suppose it was a strong Immortal: then how could she found a secret cult in Denagoth if she wasn't allowed to leave Cestia? If she left the isle, then this Immortal wasn't all that powerful and maybe there even wasn't the need to have a sect of followers to help her if she already was able to leave the isle... As you see, there are big holes in this theory. Stan and i are currently working on the Wendar-Denagoth project and we'll be ready with a timeline very soon, but we haven't yet decided about the real identity of Idris: so we're open to contributions from the list :) I think maybe the immortal Idris should be her own self. There's too many that come from known world cultures or their ancestors, which is *not* realistic. Why make different versions for different nations, and not few native ones (like with Savage Coast, even though the curse is interesting)? Sure, earth deities have counterparts in other cultures. Why should immortals of other places, maybe Sind also, be fake ones with mainly Occidental ones behind them. I don't recall if the cultures in Wendar & Denagoth have close ties to the known world, but this thing about immortals has always bugged me. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:27:52 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The TSR Copyright Thread This is just a friendly note letting everyone know I am keeping an eye on the TSR copyright thread. With Mystara being a "dead" world, I feel the issue is important, since the only support we will see for Mystara will come from fans. BUT, I would like things to remain friendly here. Already the match has been struck, and it looks like flames could be imminent. If this happens I will have to step in. Leroy Van Camp III | "You know, not kneeing you in the groin malacoda@lesbois.com | is a constant struggle." owner-mystara-l@io.com | MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:04:52 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Re: Minrothad >>have more water about. If people don't like that one gazeeteer (Minrothad I think David meant Ierendi, since lots of people seem to hate it. SSpeaking of Minrothad, I don't have the gaz for it, but it seems to be some kind of a merchant nation, isn't that a little redundant with Darokin? I mean TWO merchant nations in such a small area? Can anyone give >me brief run-down of what the Minrothad Gaz is like ( and possibly where I >might buy a spare one... ) Thanks! I don't have the GAZ, but my understanding is that Minrothad is a powerful sea trading nation, while Darokin monopolizes the overland trade. After all, Darokin's only real ports are at Athenos and Tenobar, and both are relatively small and out of the way of major shipping routes. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:45:33 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Minrothad >>Speaking of Minrothad, I don't have the gaz for it, but it seems to be some kind of a merchant nation, isn't that a little redundantwith DDDarokin? I mean TWO merchant nations in such a small area? Can anyone give me brief run-down of what the Minrothad Gaz is like ( and possibly where I might buy a spare one... ) Thanks! >I don't have the GAZ, but my understanding is that Minrothad is a powerful sea trading nation, while Darokin monopolizes the overland trade. After all, Darokin's only real ports are at Athenos and Tenobar, and both are relatively small and out of the way of major shipping routes. Speaking strictly from memory... Patrick is of course right. Darokin specializes in overland trade, Minrothad in seatrade. Othervise Minrothad is a nation ruled by guilds (labour unions :) The whole society revolves around guilds and around good workmanship. Minrothad is populated by humans, elves, halflings and dwarfs, and they all specialize in some trade, formings guild around their special areas. Also there are some 'political' guilds who do most of the governal work. And about the gaz. I thinkthe Gaz is quite good. It explanes the society, different guilds and the way peoples think and live guite well. It gives rich input to the different trades of medieval macical society, and also richens the trade rules set in Darokin Gaz, by giving appropriate information for coastal realms. And it also gives one new character class, the merchant prince. Thats an seagoing merchant master, with spells and good 'roleplayability'. Pasi P.S. One more thing. It's not easy to get to minrothad as the seas around it are treacherous, with shallows and fog. - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:19:48 +0200 (METDST) From: "Oystein H. Lund" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, stan wrote: [Snip] >>Fact #2, whether Mystara is not presently in print does not make it right for you to use copyrighted or trademarked material as you see fit. >not enough time to remove the images. Apart from perhaps the obvious answer what is the immediate rush for Sean Reynolds to tell Herve to get the images off his page - and even if the answer is the obvious one is Sean Reynolds the correct person to be doing what he's doing. >>Thanks alot Herve. Everyone really needed this. WWhat. Are you blaming Herve for something here? [Snip] American trademark laws. TSR needs to mount a vigorous defense of their trademarks in ALL instances of misuse, or they'll lose it. If it can be demonstrated to a court's satisfaction that TSR as a company was aware of misuse of their trademarks, associated images and artwork, or intellectual property pertaining to this, and did nothing about it, the court will rule that the trademark has entered public domain through the corporation's own actions. Not just cola, but aspirin, and a whole host of other 'generic' names started as brand names of a company. We may gripe all we want - but we're talking about people's livelihoods here. I'd like TSR to be able to continue paying Bruce, Sean, and all the rest - I want the designers and staff to be able to eat, so they can design better games for us all ;) And really - given that it's a "shout at you, loudly and forcefully, or lose money" type of situation.. can you blame them for shouting ? It's not like TSR is earning anything off the properties right now, no - but if the WOtC deal goes through, don't you think they'll pay more if the Mystaran properties aren't devalued through losing parts of it to the public domain ? _______________________________________________________________________ | Oeystein H. Lund ,kj160@lhg.hib.no | | "Who are we, why are we here ?" | | - Forget the questions, someone gimme another beer. | Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:01:13 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #45 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: e0f6859be7e9f8035599ce063f5706cf |_____________________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:29:45 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? At 23.12 15/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-15 00:09:33 EDT, jsmill@IMAP1.ASU.EDU (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: ><< Last I heard, his sister Isabelle destroyed him in a magical duel in GGlantri City. (PWA 1012). Does he reappear in Mark of Amber, then? >> >Yep. Synn brings him back from the dead to do more mischief. Now there is a real candidate for Ravenloft -- Synn herself! Brings him back from the dead? BUT HE WAS DISINTEGRATED at the end of the match with Isidore!!!! Besides, maybe u don't know well the RL flavour, but it doesn't suffice to be an evil person to be swallowed by the mists: you need also a tragic background of fall from grace and corruption of innocence to be attracted by the Dark Powers (which have nothing to do with Thanatos or other immortals, but i have a personal theory concerning the Vortex and the Mists... however, that's another story...) I don't think Henri is eligible for RL... DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:55:01 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-16 12:21:24 EDT, Herve writes: << As you all know, TSR artwork on my homepage is just one picture (which I don't even know if it's property of TSR, Sean never answered me on this) and 4 times the Mystara logo. >> I'm sorry you're having these problems, but try not to think ill of TSR (the corporation) or TSR Inc. (Sean Reynolds). TSR not only has the right but the responsibility to police the net and other media for infringements on their copyrights. If you have copyrighted info on your homepage, and the owner of that copyright requests that you remove it, then you should do so with all haste. They could bring a lawsuit against you and win (not that they would, it probably wouldn't be worth their time). All artwork published by TSR is owned and copyrighted by TSR, and that includes logos. Sean isn't trying to be a jerk, it's his job to do what he's doing. If he seems a little testy in his email communications with you, well . . . he has to put up with a lot of crap from a lot of stupid people . . . and that kind of strain shows even from the best of us. Again, sorry you're having these problems. I am knowledgable (of copyright law anyways) and can understand the copyright laws, but if they didn't exist I'd have a really cool homepage with all my favorite Mystara artwork displayed prominently! Good luck! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:32:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Minrothad (was Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris) On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Jody Duncan wrote: >Speaking of Minrothad, I don't have the gaz for it, but it seems to be some kind of a merchant nation, isn't that a little redundant with Darokin? I mean TWO merchant nations in such a small area? Can anyone give me brief run-down of what the Minrothad Gaz is like ( and possibly where I might buy a spare one... ) Thanks! They're actually quite different. For the obvious, Minrothad dominates sea-trade, whereas Darokin is the leader in overland trade. Minrothad is known to have sent merchant fleets farther into the Savage Coast area than Darokin (esp. with the Huleans in Sind currently). For another thing, they are entirely different in social/political makeup. Where Darokin is a plutocracy disguising itself as a Republic, Minrothad is an oligarchy (I think that's the right political designation... whatever). Anyway, Minrothad is divided politically into a number of guilds, designated by craft. Each has a say in how the government works, and controls that particular aspect of things. There are guilds present in Darokin, too, but they tend to not be as heavily divided, and not as vocal in the government as the merchant houses and elected leaders. Many guilds may cooperate with a merchant house- while they set standards, etc, they are not nearly as vocal as the guilds in Minrothad. Also, Minrothad is very much a closed market territory. In Minrothad territory, Minrothad merchants are the only ones who can do business there. Foreign merchants are completely closed out of the market. This is not the case in Darokin, although foreign merchants in Darokin certainly don't have as many benefits as native merchants do. Racially, Minrothad tends to be (traditionally and currently) run by elves. The current ruling guildmaster is an elf. There is quite a racial mix in Minrothad, far more than the primarily human dominated Darokin. Back to politics, again, Darokin tends to be more active among the nations of the Known World politically. Due to their location, Darokin has found it beneficial to try and stop problems before they start (Darokin would have a tough time defending its borders). Hence, they are well known for their ambassadors, who are well trained and good at keeping the peace, both in and out of the country. Minrothad is more isolated from the rest of the Known World, and has minimal contacts outside of their trading. Minrothad (arguably) dominate the seas, also. While the Ierendi navy could probably blow the Minrothad navy out of the water, the Minrothad navy is superior to most others in the Known World, and their Merchant-Princes have powers over the sea and weather that surpasses any other nation. Militarily, then, the Minrothadders are probably superior to the Darokinians (relatively speaking, of course, since we're comparing land troops vs. naval troops). Anyway, that more or less covers it. Did I miss anything? :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:43:01 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 04:13:25 EDT, Shawn writes: << Sorry to take this approach and sorry especially because this may be seen as a personal attack at you - it isn't (though listing a number of "facts" like you did is not an endearing quality). I mean TSR would also have their position greatly improved if they hit all the homepages at the same time, the fact they didn't do this isn't terribly nice or even fair. Also the heavy handed way that Sean Reynolds came down on Herve is a bit much. I mean the homepage has been there with those images for a long time, then he comes along and gives him not enough time to remove the images. Apart from perhaps the obvious answer what is the immediate rush for Sean Reynolds to tell Herve to get the images off his page - and even if the answer is the obvious one is Sean Reynolds the correct person to be doing what he's doing. Try this out. Sean attacks Herve's site when he does because he hasn't seen Herve's site until just then. There are a gajillion websites out there, and I bet a ton of them have TSR copyrighted artwork that TSR Inc (Sean) just hasn't seen. Policing the net to enforce TSR copyright is a big job, and Sean does a lot more than that! I've noticed that TSR employees do tend to get a bit snippy when dealing with issues like this. Bruce's reply (and many posts by Sean) definitely have a "snippy" tone. But I really can't blame them. I've also read the many posts by rabid and insanley stupid and insulting gamers attacking TSR employees, and that doesn't get the "T$R" email that must flood their mailboxes!!!!! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:39:47 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, David Melik wrote: >I think maybe the immortal Idris should be her own self. There's too many that come from known world cultures or their ancestors, which is *not* realistic. Why make different versions for different nations, and not few native ones (like with Savage Coast, even though the curse is interesting)? Well, while I agree with you in principle that there should be other Immortals and not every one should be another pseudonym, there is a point to be made for that proposition: As for the Savage Coast- none of the human residents (or for that matter, the demihuman residents) are native to that area. All of the civilizations there are migrants, with the exception of the Huleans (who are likely related to the barbarian tribes to their north, and probably have their own Immortals- I've never bought into the Loki-Bozdogan theory for personal biases. :) The Herathians, the Rakasta, and the Lupins, though, should probably have their own Immortals (at least some)- particularly the Herathians; by their own, I mean unrelated to the Immortals who originated in the Known World. As for Sind- AFAIK, most of the major Sindhi Immortals are those major powers who have been around for a long time, and aren't tied to any specific origin (ie, Kala/Hel and Himayeti/etc/Ixion). Hence, their Immortals aren't necessarily Occidental. Just ancient. Alphatians seem to have mostly their own Immortals (those from their culture/homeworld/area), with some adopted from other cultures they have contacted. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:53:37 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >Brings him back from the dead? BUT HE WAS DISINTEGRATED at the end of the match with Isidore!!!! I thought that bit was a little odd, myself, but I suppose it isn't necessarily beyond Synn's (or her Immortal lord, whoever it is) power to resurrect him. I just don't think he's that major a villain that anyone would bother to waste their time with him... >Besides, maybe u don't know well the RL flavour, but it doesn't suffice to be an evil person to be swallowed by the mists: you need also a tragic background of fall from grace and corruption of innocence to be attracted by the Dark Powers (which have nothing to do with Thanatos or other immortals, but i have a personal theory concerning the Vortex and the Mists... however, that's another story...) Hmm... I hadn't thought about that. Is that always, true, though? What about Azalin, the Lich? I didn't think he had a story like that. At any rate, if that's the case, then that dominion on the Isle of Dawn may be eligible (with the husband/wife werewolves)... Furmenglaive? I wouldn't mind seeing Prince Volospin Aendyr there- an Alphatian flavor for RL... the mists grabbed him before the Meteor hit. (I don't buy that he was slain in the meteor impact anyway. He's the frigging High Master of Air Elementals, for chrissakes! I have a personal theory on his current state of existence...) >I don't think Henri is eligible for RL... I agree. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:33:22 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? At 01.53 17/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >I just don't think Henri is that major a villain that anyone would bother to waste their time with him... I agree... he could have been a major personality in Averoigne, but if u put him in the Land of the Mists, what other goal could he have?... >>Besides, maybe u don't know well the RL flavour, but it doesn't suffice to be an evil person to be swallowed by the mists: you need also a tragic background of fall from grace and corruption of innocence to be attracted by the Dark Powers (which have nothing to do with Thanatos or other immortals, but i have a personal theory concerning the Vortex and the Mists... however, that's another story...) >Hmm... I hadn't thought about that. Is that always, true, though? What about Azalin, the Lich? I didn't think he had a story like that. Well, that's a strange one. Actually, Azalin waa dragged into RL because of his strong evil nature, but he also had a tragic past: a man who has renounced to his humanity only to gain power... over death itself. Besides, Azalin is not a slaughterer and a butcher: he's a canny subtle and powerful schemer who has to be admired and feared both... one of the best characters ever created.. until of course TSR didn't kill him.... But i'd like to point out that there's also a slughterer and dispotic villain for that matter, Vlad Drakov, obviusly inspired by Vlad Tsepes Dracula, but that's another story altogether... >At any rate, if that's the case, then that dominion on the Isle of Dawn may be eligible (with the husband/wife werewolves)... Furmenglaive? Yeah, could be good... i also wondered why Furmenglaive was omitted in PWA1014... Any idea? >I wouldn't mind seeing Prince Volospin Aendyr there- an Alphatian flavor for RL... the mists grabbed him before the Meteor hit. (I don't buy that he was slain in the meteor impact anyway. He's the frigging High Master of Air Elementals, for chrissakes! I have a personal theory on his current state of existence...) So tell me/us: where has he gone? And will we see him again in next PWA1015? And why could he be the one dragged into RL? Anyway, i have asked Steve Miller to give me some more info about the thing and probably we'll know something more soon... DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:19:09 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >Yeah, could be good... i also wondered why Furmenglaive was omitted in PWA1014... Any idea? Not sure. Maybe the Glantrian guy didn't want to go down that way? Maybe it'll pop up in next year's almanac. >So tell me/us: where has he gone? And will we see him again in next PWA1015? In a story that I am working on (actually one story in a long compilation of them dealing with a group of Mystaran adventurers), he is found on an exploration into the Plane of Air. He shifted to the Plane of Air to escape the meteor, but one of the Elemental Masters caught up with him and captured him (one of the consequences of overusing the fifth circle power). He is currently (as far as I have it) trapped and powerless in some Elemental Lord's prison in the Plane of Air (ie, he exhausted his magic and without his spellbook, he's powerless). :) >And why could he be the one dragged into RL? I don't know why he should; I just thought it might be nice if they were looking for someone. An Alphatian dominion would be something different for RL- a sort of magic user's dark paradise- and since he isn't currently being used on Mystara, he could be pulled there. Just say something about the Dark Powers snatching him up before the meteor hit. >Anyway, i have asked Steve Miller to give me some more info about the thing and probably we'll know something more soon... I hope. I'm definitely intrigued... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:36:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] SAGA (Re: The Fate of TSR) On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Joe Duncan wrote: >What the heck is the Saga system anyway? the Saga system is a new set of rules for the Dragonlance 5th age setting. It is based on cards rather than dice, and its rules are relatively simple allowing the GM to emphasize more on actual roleplaying (like the White Wolf games). The magic system is also fascinating, allowing the mage to create unique spells upon casting them. The system is however not flawless. This is probably a bit off topic for the list, so any further questions should probably be sent to me outside the list. (Unless they are related to mystara) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:37:50 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork T$R is full of feces on the copyright issue. Anyone who has the money (or clout otherwise - like Congress) to challenge them in the courts on the issue of whether they are protecting their property by policing web sites would also have the money or clout to challenge them on the issue of whether the copyright laws are intended to protect the terminology and images of the accessories of a GAME. The product is NOT A BOOK, people. It is not a piece of software. It is a GAME. It is sold to consumers as a product TO BE ACTIVELY USED for entertainment purposes. Furthermore, it is not just a game like Monopoly, where it is totally defined by the rules and materials in the package. It is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, where SOME SIGNIFICANT PORTION of the way the game works is DEFINED IN THE PLAYING BY THE PLAYERS. Do the copyright laws protect the gaming materials from Fair Use by the players? Especially do they provide protection when the materials are out of print and unsupported? I sure don't think so. But the only way to settle it is in court or in the legislature. In the meantime, T$R lawyers (who have probably never played the game anyway) advise based on the way the laws have been interpreted so far. T$R employees must act on this advice. This will not change unless someone challenges the LAWYERS. This event is vanishingly improbable. My main point - if the unlikely occurs, I think that T$R would lose on the Fair Use of an actively employed game product issue rather than on the loss of copyright for failure to protect. Second point: Is it good business to antagonize customers who love your product by employing heavy-handed tactics from the lawyers to intimidate them when they try to use the product in a way that they perceive to be its intended use? (That was a rhetorical question from a lost customer who religiously bought EVERY OD&D product.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:30:26 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Mystara & Ravenloft: Beyond the Vortex Ok, since someone has trashed all the list messages and i cannot retrieve them, then i'll post something new about the Ravenloft debate, that is my view of how RL and Mystara are connected. First of all, i do think that Ravenloft is a demiplane existing inside the Dimensional Vortex, and that is quite simple to understand: 1. RL is the Land of the Mists and the Vortex is made up by a strange swirling mist that engulfs anyone who enters there 2. It is very simple to enter the Mists of RL, but it is almost impossible to escape: the same goes for the Dimensional Vortex, and that's why nobody knows what lies beyond 3. The Mists can reach out in the Prime to grab unwillig people and to transport them into the Land of the Mists, leaving just a blank space behind (they don't form a copy of the people and the land they grab, as someone suggested: simply the whole chunk of land disappears engulfed by the mists). In the same way the Vortex could reach out and grab people by using Spectral Hounds and Blackballs... and maybe the Mists are in fact part of the Vortex... So, that's my resoning about the thing, but now you could ask: then who are the Dark Powers, those who control the Mists? Are they the Old Ones? A frightening idea, isn't it? But we know that the Old Ones are good guys and that's not the case. So who are the Dark Powers? My hypothesis is that they are somehow trapped inside the Vortex, unable to free themselves and capable to affect the other dimensions and planes only via the mists, grabbing other people inside RL (not only evil people, but also innocent ones..). Who placed them there? I suspect the Old Ones did... probably they were powerful enitites, perhaps even Old Ones, that threatened the very fabric of time and space, and so they fabricated this dimensional prison of immense proportions to keep them there and to avoid much damage. Think of the Dark Powers as an entity much like the Lovecraftian entities of primeval origin, Azathot, Nyarlathotep, Cthulhu and the like... That's my idea... What are the DP tryin to do? The frightening idea i have is this: they're trying to swallow the entire universe! Since they cannot escape their prison and since they're not even free to roam Ravenloft materially (well, there is a mysterious figure called Gentleman Caller who brings chaos and mischief in the land, but i see him as a sort of materialization of the DP, not the DP properly.. it's difficult to understand..), their only hope is to drag the whole Prime in the Vortex and to rule it inside there!! Any thoughts? PS: sorry if u think this is a bit off topic... i know it is, but only a bit, not that much.. DM ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #45 **************************** Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:30:46 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #46 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 02216b56d64a16353725da7083cb8abb mystara-digest Thursday, April 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 046 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:06:53 +0200 (METDST) From: "Oystein H. Lund" Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork Copyright and trademarks are different beasts entirely. TSR as a corporate entity will lose copyright after a specified number of years, upon which the property enters the public domain - and until that time, there's NO WAY for copyright to be lost. A work may enter the public domain before the expiry of copyright only if it's not of a substantial lengt. George Lucas sued over people naming the SDI initiative "The star Wars program" - but he lost because the judge ruled that names were not copyrightable, and Lucasfilm had lost the trademark rights. (I can't recall why, offhand.) I'm not a lawyer, or even an american, but I can see that if Lucasfilm can lose the right to "Star Wars" - TSR is right in taking no chances, neh ? So - yes, there's the fair use issue and so on, but there's a difference between trademark and copyright issues. And right now, it's a trademark issue - TSR has mellowed their stance since the days of their first net representative, and all in all I think we can live with the limitations they want. At least, we can live with them until the people who were talking lawsuits, ACLU, defense funds, and class action suits put their money where their mouths are. Of course, I'd be happier if we could do this free exchange thing - but really, we are talking people's jobs here. Do you _really_ expect them to not care about losing the ability to make money for the company, and so get paid themselves ? _______________________________________________________________________ | Oeystein H. Lund ,kj160@lhg.hib.no | | "Who are we, why are we here ?" | | - Forget the questions, someone gimme another beer. | |_____________________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:07:11 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-16 12:21:24 EDT, Herve writes: ><< Here's the last mail I received from TSR concerning artwork on my homepage (this whole mess began a week ago). >> >etc... snip for length. >And since you want to carry on the discussion in this mailing group... FFact #1, these graphic elements are copyrighted and you had no authorization to use them on your web site. Correct, however this is not his service provider's, webmaster's, or especially postmaster's problem. Its his. What most people have a problem with is not that TSR is defending its copyrights, its the way the're going about it. I remember an entire archive of non-AD&D related material that was summarily deleted because a, now fired because of this, TSR net rep threatened a service provider because they had an AD&D directory. If you want to take action against someone it should be the person that wrote the page. >Fact #2, whether Mystara is not presently in print does not make it right for you to use copyrighted or trademarked material as you see fit. ^^^^^^^^^^^ I thought we all understood this. Trademarks are OK. As long as they are properly attributed and its said specifically that they are used without permission. Otherwise everytime an author wrote that someone went to get a Band-Aid they'd have to ask Johnson & Johnson for permission. Of course I may be wrong since I am not a lawyer or anything. >Fact #3, whether it is inconvenient for your to remove said offending material remains your problem entirely. >Fact #4, *your* lack of cooperation and complete disregard of copyrights (ours and others on your site) just makes it tougher for everyone else who's interested in supporting Mystara (and other favorite properties) and thus gain any kind of support from the actual owners of above-mentioned properties. Absolutely correct. Sorry Herve, but copyrights are copyrights. If I wrote something, which I have, and it started suddenly showing up all over the web, which it has. I might get upset if that wasn't what I originally intended, which it was. >Thanks alot Herve. Everyone really needed this. >Bruce Heard Now I know this is off topic slightly for the list. Stop me if this should be stopped. But what if you make a link to the art on TSR's web site? Not a copy, but a link. I'm sure TSR will want to stop this, but if I can't link to your art, why can I link to your page, which is also copyrighted material? Does this mean I need to ask TSR's permission to make a link to their site? Does Yahoo? How about WebCrawler? Is there a TSR policy on how to go about getting permission to use art? How about text? I believe its been more than a year since we asked for a policy on this, but I haven't heard of one being made available. I may have just missed it of course, in which case I'd like it if someone could post its location. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:20:33 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 03:41:28 EDT, Oystein Lund writes: << I'd like TSR to be able to continue paying Bruce, Sean, and all the rest - I want the designers and staff to be able to eat, so they can design better games for us all ;) >> Hey, thanks! I'll second that one! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:29:41 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 09:38:53 EDT, Neal Daskal writes: << T$R is full of feces on the copyright issue. Anyone who has the money (or clout otherwise - like Congress) to challenge them in the courts on the issue of... >> Blah, blah, blah... And a pleasure talking to you too. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:03:13 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara & Ravenloft: Beyond the Vortex >So, that's my resoning about the thing, but now you could ask: then who are the Dark Powers, those who control the Mists? Are they the Old Ones? A frightening idea, isn't it? But we know that the Old Ones are good guys and that's not the case. So who are the Dark Powers? Anti-Old Ones? ( Sort of like Old One Draedens? ) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:20:29 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-16 23:04:56 EDT, Aron writes: << Although I feel it's a shame that Huerve has to get rid of that nice picture from his page, I understand TSR's position. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu You'd better check me on this, but I have heard that if you take someone else's picture and alter it, it then becomes yours. This happens frequently with photographs. >> Re. Herve's site -- ditto but no choice to avoid it. Re. the alteration of art -- wrong! You can't pick up someone else's art, do something to it and claim that version is yours. Doesn't work that way either. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:02:58 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Minrothad >Othervise Minrothad is a nation ruled by guilds (labour unions :) The whole society revolves around guilds and around good workmanship. Minrothad is populated by humans, elves, halflings and dwarfs, and they all specialize in some trade, formings guild around their special areas. Also there are some 'political' guilds who do most of the governal work. >And about the gaz. >I thinkthe Gaz is quite good. It explanes the society, different guilds and the way peoples think and live guite well. It gives rich input to the different trades of medieval macical society, and also richens the trade rules set in Darokin Gaz, by giving appropriate information for coastal realms. And it also gives one new character class, the merchant prince. Thats an seagoing merchant master, with spells and good 'roleplayability'. Ah! So there is consistency with the merchant magic system introduced in the Darokin gazeteer? I always wondered whether or not they would have the same type of magic. It makes sense that two merhcant nations living so close would share something like that.... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:03:04 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork At 08:19 AM 4/17/97 +0200, you wrote: >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, stan wrote: >[Snip] >>>Fact #2, whether Mystara is not presently in print does not make it right for you to use copyrighted or trademarked material as you see fit. >>not enough time to remove the images. Apart from perhaps the obvious answer what is the immediate rush for Sean Reynolds to tell Herve to get the images off his page - and even if the answer is the obvious one is Sean Reynolds the correct person to be doing what he's doing. >>>Thanks alot Herve. Everyone really needed this. WWWhat. Are you blaming Herve for something here? [[Snip] >American trademark laws. TSR needs to mount a vigorous defense of their trademarks in ALL instances of misuse, or they'll lose it. If it can be demonstrated to a court's satisfaction that TSR as a company was aware of misuse of their trademarks, associated images and artwork, or intellectual property pertaining to this, and did nothing about it, the court will rule that the trademark has entered public domain through the corporation's own actions. Not just cola, but aspirin, and a whole host of other 'generic' names started as brand names of a company. Possibly, but why single out one single page then? There are literaly hundreds of sites out there using TSR imgaes, even giving them away as downloads. All I did was search for "pictures fantasy ad&d" and I got at least a hundred sites. All of the ones I visited had some of TSR's most famous artwork prominently displayed. It's not like TSR can't know about these sites, that would be almost impossible, as I turned up several of them searching for things like "TSR" and "AD&D". So, should we assume since TSR isn't challenging these sites, that the artwork on them is public domain? If they don't challenge all these sites, then they have no right to challenge Herve as the art is public domain. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:20:40 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 00:32:39 EDT, Joe Duncan writes: << This is the point that always gets me. Isn't TSR being incredibly heavy-handed with this? I mean, they gave it up, they quit using it, and then they threaten the fans who wish to continue using it? Do they really hate Mystara and it's fans that much? If it was a current copyright, I'd understand. By why should TSR care about Mystara anymore? No matter what anyone does with the Mystara material TSR can't possibly see it as any kind of financial threat, as they've already deemed Mystara unprofitable. So why are they taking such a heavy handed threatening approach? >> Dead wrong. If TSR/WOTC were to resume production on Mystara they would do so IF and only IF they were totally positive they owned the property. If everyone out there can challenge that property because it was not defended, they there would be NO HOPE at all of ever reviving Mystara (or any other property in the same situation). So, if you want to support Mystara, don't mess with copyrights and trademarks as it can only hurt everyone in the process. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:20:33 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 04:44:26 EDT, BZuber writes: << I'm sorry you're having these problems, but try not to think ill of TSR (the corporation) or TSR Inc. (Sean Reynolds). TSR not only has the right but the responsibility to police the net and other media for infringements on their copyrights. If you have copyrighted info on your homepage, and the owner of that copyright requests that you remove it, then you should do so with all haste. They could bring a lawsuit against you and win (not that they would, it probably wouldn't be worth their time). All artwork published by TSR is owned and copyrighted by TSR, and that includes logos. >> Yep. Instead of a lawsuit, there is the much simpler approach of contacting the offender's server and have the site shut down. All it takes is an email from TSR. We can keep sending such emails to web site carriers on a daily basis. Pretty cheap and pretty effective. I'd like to tell these legally-challenged people to stop wasting their time and ours and get with the program. They want to support Mystara, that's great but they can do so without ripping off TSR or its artists. They don't need TSR's art and logos to make their own web site look cool. That's their problem! Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:21:55 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 04:13:25 EDT, Shawn Stanley writes: << Would you also suggest, Bruce, that anyone with a homepage place little TM's and R's after the relevant words when they appear on the homepage. Also would it be a good idea for us to to the same on the mailing list. >> That would be nice indeed! (One *can* dream a little, right!?) :) Actually, if some of you would be so kind as to do something like that, it might be easier to use the R or the TM the first time the name is used only (no need to festoon your material with these pesky marks). <> You're unaware of the situation, Shawn. First off, we request people remove offending material when we see it. If we don't -- well we can't tell them to do anything can't we? Furthermore, I had already requested Herve remove the art and the logo about two weeks ago, request he totally ignored. Sean then asked him several more times to comply, and Herve just played a silly dodging game. This guy has had two weeks to comply, that's plenty. If the request to remove the stuff is inconvenient for him, that's his problem entirely. He didn't have to use that art on the first place. Heck, this guy is ripping off TSR, that's pretty inconvenient to TSR I would think! <> I think so, besides the fact this question is irrelevant to issue. Whether you personally like Sean or myself has nothing to do with tradermark issues. If some people want Sean to be *nice* to them, then they should not act like jerks and thieves. Some may find my tone rather harsh -- it is. You want to start a little flame war, be my guest. That'll sure solve everything. <> Yeah. I thought that was pretty obvious. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:50:07 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 12:38:06 EDT, StarHawk writes: << I thought we all understood this. Trademarks are OK. As long as they are properly attributed and its said specifically that they are used without permission. Otherwise everytime an author wrote that someone went to get a Band-Aid they'd have to ask Johnson & Johnson for permission. Of course I may be wrong since I am not a lawyer or anything. >> I'm not talking about text here. I'm talking about unauthorized use of art and logos. Stick with the issue at hand. Did I ever try to prevent anyone from posting ideas and other textual support for Mystara? No. So don't generalize. <> No idea. Sean might be able to shed some light on the issue. (Yo, Sean?) <> You probably can't unless you are a licensee of TSR, in other words, you are producing and selling some product or service under a licence agreement with TSR. There is a net policy that should answer most of your questions. It's probably best at this point if Sean answers these questions -- I'm sure he's far more knowledgeable on this issue than I am. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:07:14 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork At 08:37 AM 4/17/97 EST, you wrote: >of a GAME. The product is NOT A BOOK, people. It is not a piece of software. It is a GAME. It is sold to consumers as a product TO BE ACTIVELY USED for entertainment purposes. Furthermore, it is not just a game like Monopoly, where it is totally defined by the rules and materials in the package. It is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, where SOME SIGNIFICANT PORTION of the way the game works is DEFINED IN THE PLAYING BY THE PLAYERS. Do the copyright laws protect the gaming materials from Fair Use by the players? No, but that's the point. You're allowed to use it all you want. You just can't REPRODUCE it (even electronically) without permission. >Especially >do they provide protection when the materials are out of print and unsupported? yes, they do. Has Tolkien "supported" the "Lord of the Rings"? Obviously not, and I think you'll agree that you can't reproduce any of his material, even if you're only doing it because you like it and want to see it continue. Just because they aren't writing anything new doesn't mean you can take something previously written by them and reproduce it. >Second point: Is it good business to antagonize customers who love your product by employing heavy-handed tactics from the lawyers to intimidate them when they try to use the product in a way that they perceive to be its intended use? (That was a rhetorical question from a lost customer who religiously bought EVERY OD&D product.) How you (or I) perceive its intended use and how the authors see it may be (and often are) different. That's not your call, it's theirs. I agree that it would be nice if we could put some of the Mystara stuff online (especially the Gazetteers for the people who don't own them yet), but that would potentially be taking business away from the people who wrote it. If WOTC were to decide that they want to write more Mystara stuff, anything found online could potentially hurt their sales. Frankly, although I would love to share some of the stuff I own with the rest of the Mystara list, I don't think it's a good idea to financially hurt the people who brought the books to us all in the first place. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:26:06 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork >Of course, I'd be happier if we could do this free exchange thing - but really, we are talking people's jobs here. Do you _really_ expect them to not care about losing the ability to make money for the company, and so get paid themselves ? Is that the real issue here? Does TSR ( or Wizards of the Coast ) actually stand to lose money from people using their artwork? I find that Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:30:46 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #46 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 02216b56d64a16353725da7083cb8abb highly doubtful. As to the slippery slope argument, the "fair use" condition kind of eliminates that. So gamers could use it, but those people who'd want to use the companies art against the company wouldn't be able to. How exactly does the company stand to lose money by having gamers put their art on a webpage? Besides, why does the company care so much about copyrighted material that's pretty much already become public domain? All you have to do is do a very simple search on the web to turn up about a hundred sites that have TSR copyrighted material on them and aren't being challenged. If TSR actually followed throught with it's threats, they'd probably lose based on the grounds that the material is already public domain. So what's the point of all this? I don't see how TSR could lose money from it ( maybe they don't like free advertising ) and if they actually took it to court they'd most likely lose, so I'd like to know why they're bothering... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 13:44:24 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork >use that art on the first place. Heck, this guy is ripping off TSR, that's pretty inconvenient to TSR I would think! My question is -- how? Herve isn't making money off of it. TSR isn't losing money off of it, so how can he be ripping off TSR? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 13:40:07 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork >the program. They want to support Mystara, that's great but they can do so without ripping off TSR or its artists. They don't need TSR's art and logos to make their own web site look cool. That's their problem! Well, not really since even a website having anything to do with D&D or AD&D or the settings for them, is also torpedoed by TSR. TSR does not allow Mystara fans to support the setting using webpages, period. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 13:49:30 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork >I'm not talking about text here. I'm talking about unauthorized use of art and logos. Stick with the issue at hand. Did I ever try to prevent anyone from posting ideas and other textual support for Mystara? No. So don't generalize. Actually TSR doesn't allow that either. I asked the folks at TSR if I could put up a page to help develop the MOrient project, just a place to post ideas and textual support ( I was planning on making my own graphics ) and they said "not unless you want legal trouble". - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:58:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-17 09:38:53 EDT, Neal Daskal writes: ><< T$R is full of feces on the copyright issue. Anyone who has the mmoney (or clout otherwise - like Congress) to challenge them in the courts on the issue of... >> >Blah, blah, blah... And a pleasure talking to you too. >Bruce Heard I certainly hope this debate doesnæt get too heated here. We need all of you on the list in the future too. Its a shame that we cant use TSR material, but thats the way. Ofcourse TSR trying to controll whats put on WWW try on the impossible. Cant blame them for trying, but I hope you guys arent having any expectations to succeed. Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:20:57 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 13:22:58 EDT, Joe Duncan writes: << Possibly, but why single out one single page then? There are literaly hundreds of sites out there using TSR imgaes, even giving them away as downloads. >> snip for length. No one is singled out. This one just happened after Herve suggested to me I comment on his site. "Your site is cool, Herve! Now please remove the art and logos." How silly can this get? All people reading this topic "officially" know this is not acceptable. Please remove all unauthorized art and logos from your sites. If we "see" you, we'll tell you the same thing. There. Happy? Acting as a lemming does not make things right. It's not because some people have decided to help themselves to things they do not own (with the "excuse" of supporting their favorite hobby) that everybody should feel compelled to follow. Stealing once is just as bad as stealing 100 times. Oh sure: "We're supporting the hobby, so we'll take by force everything we want, regardless of whether this is right..." You can assume that what you want is public domain, and pretend to be judge, jury, and executioner all at once -- I certainly cannot prevent you from such -- although that still doesn't make it right. And you know it. As I explained in an earlier post, in the long run, you'll have contributed to a further destruction of the product line you claim you are "supporting". Thanks alot for perpertrating the great giveaway. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:37:06 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Stop it, please. Please stop the copyright debate. Why already had to such debates since this mailing list was born. I wasn't subscribed yet when the 1st started, but I can clearly remember the 2nd one and I hoped that was the last one :( I know that many of you are proud of telling to their friends:" Hey, I had a flame war with Bruce Heard, the Mystara guru!" :), but probably you'll realize that receiving about 20 messages abou this is not very nice. Just my opinion. PS: Bruce, as I told before we had a debate about copyright last year and Ann Dupuis took part too. Well I must say that she said the same thing you said, but in "softer" way. Maybe that's because she no longer works for TSR or because because she's a female :) Long live Mystara. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:45:24 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork Here's another issue... Since so may are ready to grab on to anything they can get their hands on, regardless of who rightfully owns what, then I suppose there is no point for me to waste my time arguing with TSR (or WotC) to put anything at all related to Mystara on official sites. Why bother!? You're going to do as you please anyway, right? This may seem fair to the kinds of people who like to give themselves the right to do anything they please, however I do believe there is a silent majority of people who would not agree with this approach. Unfortunately, the majority often becomes the victim of the few who will abuse the system. Too bad. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:37:01 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler At 20.08 16/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >>Basically, it comes down to this: According to PWA 1012, the SE caverns are located app. 6,000 ft below the surface of Mystara. The Great Crater that is created by the meteor of 1006 is described as creating a hole 'several miles deep' (nothing more specific that I've yet seen; will check G: CoM later, though.) >It was always my understanding that the City of the Stars cavern was 600 MILES below the surface of Mystara. I think it says that in GAZ13. The rest of the Shadow Elf lands obviously can't be THAT much higher or lower, so if this is correct then there is less than no problem here. Actually Gaz13 doesn't give an exact location, anyway it assumes that CotS is located in the midpoint between the KW and the HW. PWA3 later corrected this to 6,000 ft below the surface. I found the latter one more plausible, especially if we want the SE to conquer Alfheim and Oenkmar. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:56:46 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 15:00:31 EDT, J. Duncan writes: << Actually TSR doesn't allow that either. I asked the folks at TSR if I could put up a page to help develop the MOrient project, just a place to post ideas and textual support ( I was planning on making my own graphics ) and they said "not unless you want legal trouble". >> Quite possibly. According to the net policy, you can't do that sort of thing. *Not* speaking officially for TSR, I think you've been allowed to email stuff to each other back and forth in this newsgroup. That seems pretty harmless. Copying extant material, including art and logo is a problem for TSR and its artists, whether you agree or not. Whenever possible, it will be dealt with. Try this with some of the entertainment companies. See what what happens. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:36:56 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler At 20.26 15/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >Here's something that just occurred to me today, that I thought I'd share. Fabrizio, I thought I'd pose this to you in particular (as well as the list in general) since it deals with the Shadowelves, and ties in with the 'noids. Here I am :) >Basically, it comes down to this: According to PWA 1012, the SE caverns are located app. 6,000 ft below the surface of Mystara. The Great Crater that is created by the meteor of 1006 is described as creating a hole 'several miles deep' (nothing more specific that I've yet seen; will check G: CoM later, though.) >The dilemma is this: assuming several miles to mean 2 or more, we are left with a hole app. 10,000 feet deep (on the low end). The depths of this crater would open up into Shadowelf territory below Mystara. I doubt the crater is so deep, anyway this is not a problem as you'll see below... >Assumption #1) 6000 ft below ground is an estimate (say, the City of Stars is 6000 feet below), with the other caverns of the SE territories being above or below that (I doubt the SE caverns are entirely level). I agree >Assumption #2) Point of impact of the meteor is Corran Keep, in the Silver Sierra Mts (I think, whatever). I don't recall the height of the mtns offhand, but lets say 2-3 thousand feet above sea level, at least. Average altitude of the Silver Sierras is 17000 feet (PWA12) >Conclusion: Adding #1 and #2, we are still stuck with the conclusion that the lowest depths of the Great Crater sink well into SE territory, opening up in the northwesternmost regions of the SE's realm. Can we say 'noid and SE hostilities? The Great Crater becomes a very strategic location for Glantrian forces (to protect against possible hostile SE forces), as well as SE forces underground. Discuss. :) Actually I've done a bit of map-cheking before answering you and my conclusion is that the Great Crater lies west of the SE territory. Now I prove it to you: the meteor strikes in Corran Keep, about 24 miles south-west of Redstone and about 24 miles north of Fort Lakeside (check the map in WotI). If you have both GAZ13 and TM1 try to put the first on the second matching the locations of Glantri City and Darokin. You'll see that the area struck by the meteor lies west of Lethowan River (Gaz13 map, upper left). >Another note. Several miles deep. The Nucleus of the Spheres, IIRC, is located 10,000 ft. below Glantri City. With the depths opened up by the Crater, and the exposed caverns nearby, a possible proximity to the NoS is achieved. Possibly even radiation leakage into nearby caverns... hmm. I doubt this too, because the Nucleus is right under Glantri City, i.e. about 144 miles north-east of the crater center. BTW: if the Nucleus is 10,000 ft below Glantri City it is just 4,000 ft below the SE territories in an inhabited area! Interesting. I remember that my SE Shaman PC once went over the area where the Nucleus is located and I told him that his soul crystal glowed strangely... About the meteor I've another doubt. WotI says: "...the Masters formally curses those who have defeated him." What does "formally curses" means? Did he send a letter to Chancellor Mauntea, King Stefan Karameikos.... telling them "I curse you!"? :) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:10:49 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork In a message dated 97-04-17 15:50:30 EDT, J. Duncan writes: << My question is -- how? Herve isn't making money off of it. TSR isn't losing money off of it, so how can he be ripping off TSR? >> That's not the point. The art does not belong to him. He should not use it without consent. That alone should be enough. Everytime you recopy something you diminish the value of the item. That's how you lose money, even though you might think it's only a "perceived" value it remains nevertheless an issue to a publisher and the artist/author/owner (whoever). I'm amazed at the amount of effort some people will put into trying to find an excuse for something, such as copyright infringement, that it basically wrong. The US Constitution defends the right of private ownership as do most democracies, whether you like it or not. If the owner of an item says "don't touch this unless I permit you to", then you shouldn't mess with it. What's so hard to understand here? Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:44:09 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:20:40 -0400 (EDT) TSRBruce@aol.com writes: ... By why should TSR care about Mystara anymore? No matter what aanyone does with the Mystara material TSR can't possibly see it as any kind >of financial threat, as they've already deemed Mystara unprofitable. So why >are they taking such a heavy handed threatening approach? >> >Dead wrong. If TSR/WOTC were to resume production on Mystara they would do so >IF and only IF they were totally positive they owned the property. If everyone out there can challenge that property because it was not defended, >they there would be NO HOPE at all of ever reviving Mystara (or any other >property in the same situation). So, if you want to support Mystara, don't >mess with copyrights and trademarks as it can only hurt everyone in the process. >Bruce Heard In my opinion this should end this silly little discussion. Any one else who desires to carry it on further is, in my opinion, a bozo with not enough to do in their life...can we please get back to discussing everyone's favorite game? Nick Bambakidis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:37:15 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy >Return-Path: >Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:09:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: mroy@cyberus.ca (Unverified) >To: brizio@lunet.it >From: Michael Roy >Subject: Foward to Mailing List >The drafting for the Mystaran Almanac AC 1015 is under way at the moment, and there are two main questions that I have for the list... >The first is basically ideas for the nation of Nithia. In the last Almanac, I started a civil war and then more or less left it open for development by individual DMs. I would like to end the war at this point, but I'm not sure by what method. >I was thinking about finding the source of Semkha's corruption and perhaps an actual confrontations with the two Burrowers beneath Nithia. This would create a huge magical battle as a climax, typical of fantasy campaigns. But is that too grand? Should the war just be won by normal means? AAlso, who should win? Should Ramose and the side of good win? Should he regain his clerical powers? Or should Semkha win, producing another nation of Entropy in the Hollow World? II would really like to hear the ideas of the members of the list on this subject. >The second question is not about any event/place in particular, but about the entire setting in general? >WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? >The world of Dragonlance is good vs. evil with a strong presence of Dragons. Ravenloft is about horror and evil. Forgotten Realms is about lost empires and ancient powerful magic (admittedly with a good-evil edge into it). Planescape is about philosophy and the meaning of the universe (admitedly a simplification). Spelljammers is about exploration. The Savage Coast is about dealing with the Red Curse... but what is the Old World (I think I'll keep that instead of Known World) Mystara setting about? BBy the old products, it seems that Mystara was originally intended to be a Law vs. Chaos setting. Good and Evil were ignored in OD&D alignment systems. In the AD&D versions, philosophy priests take sides according to Law and Chaos (and Neutrality), but ignore Good and Evil, stating it is a personal choice (Karameikos box set). The factions of the Inheritors are placed along Law-Choas groups as well instead of Good-Evil. Honorbounds are Lawful, not Good! Even the sphere of Immortals are more aligned with Law (Matter and Thought) and Chaos (Entropy, Time, and Energy) than good (Thought) and evil (Entropy). >The big statement of this is the alignments of the Dragons. The Mystaran Monster Manual Appendix places dragons together according to Law and Choas more than good and evil. The Lawful dragons form the dragon parliament (talked more about in the Mystara Dragonlord Chronicles Trilogy) while the Chaotic dragons are the Renegades. AAlso, nations war against each other just to impose their orders and views (Law), and not because they are opposing in Good and Evil. In fact, lot of "good" people fight each other (the Rafiel worshipping shadowelves vs. surface elves or Thyatis vs. Alphatia). >Should the Almanac work more into this theme or order and anarchy? Should we try and convert it more to a Good-Evil campaign? Should we just ignore any such theme and just let the world unfold the way it will work? Should we make our own theme? >Michael Roy >mroy@cyberus.ca ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #46 **************************** Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:22:40 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: mystara-digest V2 #47 Reply-To: mystara-l@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: b56577ab693655a67016003d6b34f68e mystara-digest Thursday, April 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 047 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:35:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timeline On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 David Melik wrote: TThis sounds interesting. Daniel Boese has also made a Mystara timeline, perhaps they should be compared, to see if there are any errors in either... :-) That is one thing we're going to do with the both of them, once I've finished polishing off my one. I have a feeling they will be completely identical in many places, but I'm sure there'll be a few bits unique to each one which one of us missed. (There's already a fair few bits in Daniel's I don't have in because I didn't have access to the sources.) Anyway, we'll probably post the results of our little comparison to the list. Probably. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:20:07 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: YYou'd better check me on this, but I have heard that if you take someone else's picture and alter it, it then becomes yours. This happens frequently with photographs. No way! Sorry, but that is completely rubbish. My Dad is a photographer, and I know he wouldn't let someone get away with such a flagrant copyright infringement (and it has happened before). I sympathise with both sides of this argument, but it has to be said that TSR has every right to exercise their copyright rights over their own pictures. I know what it's like seeing your pictures on someone else's site, often with no credit given. It is a shame that we can't use the artwork we have come to see as "Mystaran" in our pages, but there's really nothing we can do about it. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:56:55 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork OK look, here's what TSR, as I understand it, can lose: Unattributed Trademarks (anything you don't say belongs to TSR, like TSR or AD&D, its probably a good idea to put used without permission, and not meant as a challenge to any trademarks). Here's what they must defend: Unattributed Trademarks. Here's what they can tell you you can't use: Copyrighted anything (this means any art at all, and any direct quote from a rulebook). Any Trademarks (just cause they don't have to doesn't mean they can't remember the M&M/Reeses Pieces thing with E.T.). Any of their Intellectual Property (i.e. Drow, kind of like Tolkien and Hobbits) Any World, Character, Place, etc. Spell idea (not mechanics, idea, and it needs to be sufficiently unique, Fireball doesn't count) Here's what they can't tell you you can't use: Game mechanics (roll a d20 to attack, etc.) If you've ever played Sorry and Trouble you'll understand what I mean, they're the same game, exactly. Game terms. TSR can't claim to own Strength, Damage, Armor Class, etc. Anyone who KNOWS better, not thinks, knows, please correct me if I'm wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:32:15 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 David Melik wrote: PPPS - I bet none of you can pronounce "buy" properly. ;-) >Och, aye? I didnae mention earlier, my Ma's Scottish, and I've been in Scotland before. I bet ye I can pronounce it. ;) She used to live in Edinburgh as well, but now we're in the US. Maybe we're visiting my grandmother this summer though, who lives in East Linton. :-) Okay, I give up. You probably can. >What do you think of the Scottish culture in Glantri? IIRC, they should have more water about. If people don't like that one gazeeteer (Minrothad or Ierendi, I forget), maybe a Scottish civilization there would be more realistic... or maybe closer to the northern reaches. Hmm... I personally did like the Ierendi and Minrothad gazetteers... but I agree there needs to be more water in the Scottish Glantri Principality. What was it called? I've forgotten and STILL don't have my books yet. }-0 How about a Scottish civilization on that island to the east of Skothar? Failing that, I am absolutely certain that many regions of Norworld (okay, Norwold - does any else compulsively call it Norworld?) have a Scottish influence. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Joe Duncan wrote: >At 08:19 AM 4/17/97 +0200, you wrote: >>On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, stan wrote: >>[Snip] >>>>Fact #2, whether Mystara is not presently in print does not make it right for you to use copyrighted or trademarked material as you see fit. >>>not enough time to remove the images. Apart from perhaps the obvious answer what is the immediate rush for Sean Reynolds to tell Herve to get the images off his page - and even if the answer is the obvious one is Sean Reynolds the correct person to be doing what he's doing. >>>>Thanks alot Herve. Everyone really needed this. WWWWhat. Are you blaming Herve for something here? [[[Snip] >>American trademark laws. TSR needs to mount a vigorous defense of their trademarks in ALL instances of misuse, or they'll lose it. If it can be demonstrated to a court's satisfaction that TSR as a company was aware of misuse of their trademarks, associated images and artwork, or intellectual property pertaining to this, and did nothing about it, the court will rule that the trademark has entered public domain through the corporation's own actions. Not just cola, but aspirin, and a whole host of other 'generic' names started as brand names of a company. >Possibly, but why single out one single page then? There are literaly hundreds of sites out there using TSR imgaes, even giving them away as downloads. All I did was search for "pictures fantasy ad&d" and I got at least a hundred sites. All of the ones I visited had some of TSR's most famous artwork prominently displayed. It's not like TSR can't know about these sites, that would be almost impossible, as I turned up several of them searching for things like "TSR" and "AD&D". So, should we assume since TSR isn't challenging these sites, that the artwork on them is public domain? If they don't challenge all these sites, then they have no right to challenge Herve as the art is public domain. I would like to remind you of a particular site named GreyHawk that was completely deleted and many hours of peoples hard work destroyed forever simply because it contained an AD&D directory. Searching for AD&D could turn up a site with AD&D-like material, but nothing copyrighted. TSR really needs to visit each site, determine if there is a problem, inform the page's owner, and then wait for the search engines to catch up with the changes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:04:42 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-17 04:44:26 EDT, BZuber writes: ><< I'm sorry you're having these problems, but try not to think ill of TSR (the >corporation) or TSR Inc. (Sean Reynolds). TSR not only has the right but the >responsibility to police the net and other media for infringements on their copyrights. If you have copyrighted info on your homepage, and the owner of that copyright requests that you remove it, then you should do so with all haste. They could bring a lawsuit against you and win (not that they would, it probably wouldn't be worth their time). All artwork published by TSR is owned and copyrighted by TSR, and that includes logos. >> >Yep. Instead of a lawsuit, there is the much simpler approach of contacting the offender's server and have the site shut down. All it takes is an email from TSR. We can keep sending such emails to web site carriers on a daily Sorry but isn't this kind of like telling TSR to fire you because it easier than suing you for harrassment? Which, no offense to you, is not exactly far off from TSR policy. If I, as an ISP, received an E-mail a day from you about one of my users, who I have no responsibility to censor, I could conceivably consider this harassment. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if TSR one day said, "Oops, your fired because some guy wrote us an Email" especially if you didn't do it. Not that I expect, or want, this to happen. I understand TSR's position, but its the approach to the situation that has people worried. >basis. Pretty cheap and pretty effective. I'd like to tell these llegally-challenged people to stop wasting their time and ours and get with the program. They want to support Mystara, that's great but they can do so without ripping off TSR or its artists. They don't need TSR's art and logos to make their own web site look cool. That's their problem! I will ask again, at the risk of sounding highly redundant. Is it at all possible to get permission to use TSR's art or at least logos. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:10:25 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-17 12:38:06 EDT, StarHawk writes: ><< I thought we all understood this. Trademarks are OK. As long as they are pproperly attributed and its said specifically that they are used without permission. Otherwise everytime an author wrote that someone went to get a Band-Aid they'd have to ask Johnson & Johnson for permission. Of course I may be wrong since I am not a lawyer or anything. >> >I'm not talking about text here. I'm talking about unauthorized use of art and logos. Stick with the issue at hand. Did I ever try to prevent anyone from posting ideas and other textual support for Mystara? No. So don't generalize. Sorry, this wasn't directed at you, someone else, I forget who, started in with Trademarks, which are totally not the issue here. I was trying to clarify for them that Trademarks weren't something they needed to be worried about, as long as they remember to say who they belong to. In the future I'll try to be more clear on this. ><> >No idea. Sean might be able to shed some light on the issue. (Yo, Sean?) ><> >You probably can't unless you are a licensee of TSR, in other words, you are producing and selling some product or service under a licence agreement with TSR. There is a net policy that should answer most of your questions. It's probably best at this point if Sean answers these questions -- I'm sure he's far more knowledgeable on this issue than I am. >Bruce Heard Is there anywhere that this net policy is written down? Could you tell me where? I'm sure it would clear up alot of confusion here. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:07:19 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork ITs not about money it is about rights. Your page might not make any money off the artwork and might even spark an interest in someone about the game but TSR is the owner and makes the decision about what is good and bad for their art work that they paid for. Same as your publishing the PWAs. I like them but you are now making decisions about Mystaras future that TSR has no control over. If Mystara reopens your material will conflict with what TSR material. And then we have a problem. Who is right about this fantasy world. And if some follow your material then TSR looses not only money but control over a product that they own. I am rambling but the legal world is full of loop holes and people make mistakes ever day because they don't know or fully understand them. I don't, that is why I have lawyers. And after watching them in action many times I have come to the conclusion that there is no right and wrong, just who is interrupting it. I still stay that TSR could use all the personal web pages to better the game. The more who know the more who will play and the more who will buy TSR products! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:45:46 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 Neal Daskal wrote: >The product is NOT A BOOK, people. It is not a piece of software. It is a GAME. It is sold to consumers as a product TO BE ACTIVELY USED for entertainment purposes. Furthermore, it is not just a game like Monopoly, where it is totally defined by the rules and materials in the package. It is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, where SOME SIGNIFICANT PORTION of the way the game works is DEFINED IN THE PLAYING BY THE PLAYERS. I agree with your point here, but you seem to missing the point of this discussion. IMHO TSR's internet policy on the game part of their products is very well thought out, and nicely conducive to their gaming consumers. By allowing people to effectively publish their own supplements on the official site, TSR has found a great way round the law without losing their own rights. And I, for one, praise TSR for this bold move. The artwork, however, is a different case. It is not part of the game, it is not even partially defined by the players. Simply put, it is the sole property of TSR Inc and/or the contributing artist(s). There is no need beyond "it being nice" to have artwork on people's internet sites; it does not contribute to the game in any unique way defined by the owner of the site. I am the first to admit it IS nice, it DOES make it seem more like Mystara, but unfortunately it is against the law. Finally, please do not say "T$R" on this list. Apart from it being personally offensive to the TSR employees on this list, it is not nice for everyone else, as well as not being conducive to fair and reasoned discussion. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:00:06 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork >From AOL Terms of Service Section 4. B. PROPRIETARY RIGHTS. You acknowledge the following: (i) AOL, Inc. permits access to Content that is protected by copyrights, trademarks, and other intellectual and proprietary rights ("Rights"); (ii) These Rights are valid and protected in all media and technologies existing now or later developed; and (iii) Except as explicitly provided otherwise, the TOS and applicable copyright and other laws govern your use of Content (see the Rules, Section D, for details). You agree that you may upload to the software files, message boards, or otherwise transmit on or through AOL only Content that (1) is not subject to any Rights, or (2) any holder of Rights has given express authorization for distribution on AOL. You represent that if you upload any files, you have the legal authorization to do so. By submitting Content to any "public area" of AOL (e.g., message boards, forums, the Member Directory), you grant AOL, Inc. and its affiliates the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right (including any moral rights) and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, communicate to the public, perform and display the Content (in whole or in part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media or technology now known or later developed, for the full term of any rights that may exist in such Content. You also warrant that the holder of any Rights, including moral rights in such Content, has completely and effectively waived all such Rights and validly and irrevocably granted to you the right to grant the license stated above. You also permit any Member and authorized user to access, display, view, store and reproduce the Content for personal use. Subject to the foregoing, the owner of Content placed on AOL retains any and all Rights that may exist in such Content. ******** TSR has uploaded software file materials to AOL. As stated in AOL Terms of Service (above) - -You also permit any Member and authorized user to access, display, view, store and reproduce the Content for personal use. Subject to the foregoing, the owner of Content placed on AOL retains any and all Rights that may exist in such Content.- So TSR under the AOL TOS a Member is authorized to: display, view, store and reproduce the Content. However, said content is subject to the rights that may exist. Put it up give TSR the Rights. I know a little about this because I too will be an on-line Internet service provider and have to setup terms of service with my lawyer. I have to protect my rights like AOL and TSR. I see that the major problem with Herves web page is that he has left no right to the owner of the materials (TSR) and also (I may be wrong) published Illegally reproduced material. Has TSR published the Mystara logo on AOL, MPG or TSR's web site? If not then uploading a scan you did of copyrighted material is Illegal. I have an artist working form me and I don't care if it is reproduced as long as my rights, my artists name and URL go along with it. The more who know about my service the better. SO Give TSR the rights they deserve. Why be angry, it easy to do? Also, why is Raistlin on your Mystara page Herve? But it is his better Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:22:40 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: mystara-digest V2 #47 Reply-To: mystara-l@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: b56577ab693655a67016003d6b34f68e side :). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:12:42 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 Joe Duncan wrote: IIs that the real issue here? Does TSR ( or Wizards of the Coast ) actually stand to lose money from people using their artwork? I find that highly doubtful. You're forgetting that TSR has an obligation to their artists to protect their artwork. Money is not necessarily the issue, at least not directly. Why should these artists have their work plastered in places they did not give permission for it to be? If the rights are exclusively owned by TSR, then that right is transferred to them. If yu want some nice artwork on your site, you're gonna have to draw it yourself, or commission an artist - just like TSR has done. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:22:16 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The End of the Copyright Debate *Sigh* I guess I was kidding myself when I thought that this debate might, maybe, possibly, could have been resolved in a friendly, civil manner. But it looks like the time for fantasy is over. Please, if you wish to further discuss this topic, take it to private e-mail. The subject is considered off-limits as of this point on the Mystara Mailing List. Thank You. Leroy Van Camp III | "You know, not kneeing you in the groin malacoda@lesbois.com | is a constant struggle." owner-mystara-l@io.com | MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:13:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara & Ravenloft: Beyond the Vortex On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >So, that's my resoning about the thing, but now you could ask: then who are the Dark Powers, those who control the Mists? Are they the Old Ones? A frightening idea, isn't it? But we know that the Old Ones are good guys and that's not the case. So who are the Dark Powers? We don't necessarily know that the Old Ones are good guys- we don't know much about them at all. In fact, I believe it has been mentioned before that the Old Ones could possibly be the "Great Old Ones"- Cthulhu (ahem :), Etc. Or there could be good Old Ones and bad Old Ones. Interesting hypothesis you have, though. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:43:40 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR artwork On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: <<> >I think so, besides the fact this question is irrelevant to issue. Whether you personally like Sean or myself has nothing to do with tradermark issues. If some people want Sean to be *nice* to them, then they should not act like jerks and thieves. Some may find my tone rather harsh -- it is. You want to start a little flame war, be my guest. That'll sure solve everything. Actually I would like to be the first to say that I appreciate TSR's keeping the lawyers away from their copyright issues. People claim that TSR are handling this in a "heavy-handed" manner, but compared to what other companies are doing, they are conducting themselves in a very civil, considerate and above all personal (as opposed to detached lawyer threats) way. However, it would be nice to have a little less cynicism on both parties' parts. ;-) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:14:17 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? >>Yep. Synn brings him back from the dead to do more mischief. Now there is a real candidate for Ravenloft -- Synn herself! >Brings him back from the dead? BUT HE WAS DISINTEGRATED at the end of the match with Isidore!!!! I believe that Synn or her immortal supporters wished Henri back to life. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:12:30 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Scotland >Principality. What was it called? I've forgotten and STILL don't have my books yet. }-0 Klantyre >How about a Scottish civilization on that island to the east of Skothar? I think you are referring to the island of Zyxl, which has been earmarked as the location of MJapan in the MOrient project currently underway. This project is not sponsored by TSR, so you could, of course, place anything you want there, but I thought I should mention this. FFailing that, I am absolutely certain that many regions of Norworld (okay, Norwold - does any else compulsively call it Norworld?) have a Scottish influence. What about Davania? That's where there are red-haired barbarians. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:28:29 -0500 (EST) From: Mouse Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork >Is there anywhere that this net policy is written down? Could you tell me where? I'm sure it would clear up alot of confusion here. The only internet policy (that I am currently aware of) concerning TSR copyright, and trademark material, can be found on TSR's official website at: http://www.tsrinc.com/info/online_policy.html I'd like to thank Bruce and Sean for their time spent attempting to clarify any misconceptions toward this issue. For some it's a little hard to grasp (perhaps myself included). But some of this discussion actually helped me to understand certain areas of the policy. As someone had mentioned before (please forgive me, but I can't remember who at this moment), could we please return to discussing what this list is about? Thank you for your time. - --Mouse Life is pain...!! Anyone who says differently is selling something. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:41:55 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) >>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? I think that the thing that makes Mystara great is that it can have any theme the DM wishes, in any setting. Mystara is, more than anything else, based on Earth (IMHO). The overriding theme of Earth is a far more theological question than we should try to answer, so I suppose that we can't select a particular theme. The one unifying force in Mystara are the immortals. Therefore, I believe that the immortals should probably be the basis for everything in the almanac. The Law-Chaos theme is good, but I believe that the immortals are even better. There still has to be a lot of bitterness left after WotI, and if Rad returned ca. 1013, it will only increase. And the sphere of Entropy must be fuming about that dratted artifact in Glantri draining their power (I know this is not canon according to G:KoM, but IMO it should be). Perhaps that is why Synn was sent to Glantri in the first place. But normal heroes should also be involved in forming the future history of Mystara, along with the immortals. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:33:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Minrothad On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Joe Duncan wrote: >Ah! So there is consistency with the merchant magic system introduced in the Darokin gazeteer? I always wondered whether or not they would have the same type of magic. It makes sense that two merhcant nations living so close would share something like that.... Actually, while there is some overlap (or at least, similar spell effects) the two systems are rather different. For one thing, the Darokin Merchant Class uses MXP- xp based on profits made. The Merchant Princes of Darokin advance as a second class (ie, xp rules are the same). Also, the MPs are (naturally) more sea oriented, and have actual magical abilities (including combat magic), whereas the Merchants abilities are actually more like cantrip type effects (they are magic, but not really as powerful as magical abilities, and no combat magic). Personally, I'm still not sure what to think of the MP class. I'd probably make them a separate class (separate from fighters, thieves, etc.), rather than a second class, if I were using them in a campaign. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:44:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>It was always my understanding that the City of the Stars cavern was 600 MILES below the surface of Mystara. I think it says that in GAZ13. The rest of the Shadow Elf lands obviously can't be THAT much higher or lower, so if this is correct then there is less than no problem here. >Actually Gaz13 doesn't give an exact location, anyway it assumes that CotS is located in the midpoint between the KW and the HW. Under the description of the City of Stars (or the Celebryl? clan in the Player's section) it mentions that Trollhattan is more than a thousand feet above the CoS. This is as much of a location as is given anywhere in GAZ13. >PWA3 later corrected this to 6,000 ft below the surface. I found the latter one more plausible, especially if we want the SE to conquer Alfheim and Oenkmar. I fully agree. The 600 miles thing was introduced by Allston in the HW boxed set, and is one of the more sketchy elements of that set. I think it was primarily done so that he could connect them to the Schattenalfen, and the Azcan city of Mictlan, but I don't think it works out very well at all. I agree with the 6000 feet estimate being far more accurate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:06:55 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork >><>if I can't link to your art, why can I link to your page, which is also copyrighted material? Does this mean I need to ask TSR's permission to make a link to their site? Does Yahoo? How about WebCrawler?>> I believe that this is unlawful, as you would be illegally using TSR's bandwidth. If a search engine receives a request to remove a link, they will do so immediately. And I believe that they DO actually need permission. TSR pays for their website, so it is illegally taking advantage of them to link pictures. I believe that TSR would have no problem with a link to their SITE, just not to their art. However, if they DID argue with a link to their site, I believe it would have to be removed. >Is there anywhere that this net policy is written down? Could you tell me >where? I'm sure it would clear up alot of confusion here. There is a copy up at http://www.tsrinc.com/ Certainly, I would personally love to be able to have free unlimited access to everything Mystara-related, but realistically and legally it isn't going to happen. TSR owns the rights to their pictures, logos, books, etc. The best hope for Mystara, as Bruce and others have said, is to respect TSR's rights and respectfully ask WotC for the return of Mystara. PLEASE, everyone-- let's simply try hard to respect TSR's rights, let's be nice and civil, and let's end this debate (at least on the mailing list) as soon as possible. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:54:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Great Scots! (Was:Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris) On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >How about a Scottish civilization on that island to the east of Skothar? Failing that, I am absolutely certain that many regions of Norworld (okay, Norwold - does any else compulsively call it Norworld?) have a Scottish influence. Seems to me there's a place on the Isle of Dawn that had a lot of Scottish names and themes... maybe I'm misremembering... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:52:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>I was thinking about finding the source of Semkha's corruption and perhaps an actual confrontations with the two Burrowers beneath Nithia. This would create a huge magical battle as a climax, typical of fantasy campaigns. But is that too grand? Should the war just be won by normal means? My only problem with this is that it took Immortal magic to freeze the Burrowers the last time, and seems quite beyond the abilities of mortals (at least the majority of those in the HW and Surface). If the Burrowers were to wake, it would be a major Hollow World affecting event, and not just a Nithia thing. I think it should be something more along the lines of freeing people from their influence (or perhaps a moral dilemma where they are forced to slay the possessed or exile them, in order to stop them), and forbidding any to go near the Burrower/temples, rather than anything else. This leaves the Burrowers as threats, without causing massive disruptions, and allows for future developments- hunting down and destroying all their agents, keeping people away, etc. >>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? To me, one of the things about Mystara that makes it far more appealing than most worlds is that it doesn't have a "theme". It deals with (relatively) real situations and peoples- no 'good' vs. 'evil'; no black and white themes; real people aren't black and white like that. It deals with moral dilemmas, political crises. Maybe the theme, then, is real life. (Well, fantasy real life. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:17:11 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy >>The drafting for the Mystaran Almanac AC 1015 is under way at the moment, and there are two main questions that I have for the list... >>The first is basically ideas for the nation of Nithia. In the last Almanac, I started a civil war and then more or less left it open for development by individual DMs. I would like to end the war at this point, but I'm not sure by what method. >>I was thinking about finding the source of Semkha's corruption and perhaps an actual confrontations with the two Burrowers beneath Nithia. This would create a huge magical battle as a climax, typical of fantasy campaigns. But is that too grand? Should the war just be won by normal means? >>Also, who should win? Should Ramose and the side of good win? Should he regain his clerical powers? Or should Semkha win, producing another nation of Entropy in the Hollow World? III would really like to hear the ideas of the members of the list on this subject. >>The second question is not about any event/place in particular, but about the entire setting in general? >>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? >>The world of Dragonlance is good vs. evil with a strong presence of Dragons. Ravenloft is about horror and evil. Forgotten Realms is about lost empires and ancient powerful magic (admittedly with a good-evil edge into it). Planescape is about philosophy and the meaning of the universe (admitedly a simplification). Spelljammers is about exploration. The Savage Coast is about dealing with the Red Curse... but what is the Old World (I think I'll keep that instead of Known World) Mystara setting about? BBBy the old products, it seems that Mystara was originally intended to be a Law vs. Chaos setting. Good and Evil were ignored in OD&D alignment systems. In the AD&D versions, philosophy priests take sides according to Law and Chaos (and Neutrality), but ignore Good and Evil, stating it is a personal choice (Karameikos box set). The factions of the Inheritors are placed along Law-Choas groups as well instead of Good-Evil. Honorbounds are Lawful, not Good! Even the sphere of Immortals are more aligned with Law (Matter and Thought) and Chaos (Entropy, Time, and Energy) than good (Thought) and evil (Entropy). >>The big statement of this is the alignments of the Dragons. The Mystaran Monster Manual Appendix places dragons together according to Law and Choas more than good and evil. The Lawful dragons form the dragon parliament (talked more about in the Mystara Dragonlord Chronicles Trilogy) while the Chaotic dragons are the Renegades. AAAlso, nations war against each other just to impose their orders and views (Law), and not because they are opposing in Good and Evil. In fact, lot of "good" people fight each other (the Rafiel worshipping shadowelves vs. surface elves or Thyatis vs. Alphatia). >>Should the Almanac work more into this theme or order and anarchy? Should we try and convert it more to a Good-Evil campaign? Should we just ignore any such theme and just let the world unfold the way it will work? Should we make our own theme? >>Michael Roy >>mroy@cyberus.ca I like this idea! I noticed that in the Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix that dragons could have a variable alignment, but they were strongly inclined towards their given Law/Chaos part. In fact, a gold dragon COULD be a lawful evil dragon (although it's unlikely). I never really bought in to the fact that all dragons were forced to be their alignment from birth, just because they happen to have a certain color. You would think that some of the most intelligent creatures on the planet would have more choice in their morals. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:21:49 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The End of the Copyright Debate On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >I guess I was kidding myself when I thought that this debate might, maybe, possibly, could have been resolved in a friendly, civil manner. But it looks like the time for fantasy is over. Actually, for the most part I was rather impressed with the civility of most posters on the topic. Especially having stopped by rgfrpdnd on occasion and reading some of the posts there... yeesh! ;) >Please, if you wish to further discuss this topic, take it to private e-mail. The subject is considered off-limits as of this point on the Mystara Mailing List. Nevertheless, I am thankful to you for this maneuver. :) >Thank You. No- thank you! Now, let's get back to Mystara! ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #47 **************************** Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:01:06 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #48 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: bbaa572b1d44e892721f3c0f1d7fc01e mystara-digest Friday, April 18 1997 Volume 02 : Number 048 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:30:09 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR artwork At 06:20 PM 4/17/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: YYYou'd better check me on this, but I have heard that if you take someone else's picture and alter it, it then becomes yours. This happens frequently with photographs. >No way! Sorry, but that is completely rubbish. My Dad is a photographer, and I know he wouldn't let someone get away with such a flagrant copyright infringement (and it has happened before). alright, I guess I heard wrong. Everybody, please disregard my earlier statement. >I sympathise with both sides of this argument, but it has to be said that TSR has every right to exercise their copyright rights over their own pictures. I know what it's like seeing your pictures on someone else's site, often with no credit given. It is a shame that we can't use the artwork we have come to see as "Mystaran" in our pages, but there's really nothing we can do about it. I agree completely. Alright, everybody, I'm out of this copyright debate. I didn't realize that it was going to get so out of control. I think we should all end it. It doesn't seem to be productive for anybody. Legally, TSR has the right to do what it's doing regarding its property. Whether or not you guys agree with it doesn't really matter. Nobody is really convincing anybody else of anything. I think we should get back (yes, we left it a while ago) to talking about Mystara. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:40:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: >Average altitude of the Silver Sierras is 17000 feet (PWA12) Never notice this before, but this is very high. The highest point of Rocky mountains is only about 14,400 feets, with average probably around 9 thousand feet. Himalaya averages about 20,000 feet, with Everest reaching about 29,000 feet. So Silver Sierras is close to been highest mountain range if placed on Earth. And if I remember correctly, the mountain range in Norworld is even higher. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:19:18 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Copyright query Would I be right in thinking it is okay to quote a small section of text (say a phrase or sentence or two), properly attributed, as evidence in a discussion? This certainly seems to be the case in literary criticism, and discussion of role-playing books is essentially the same activity. What I mean is, is it okay to quote from a book to prove a point, as opposed to copying from a book in order to give someone the information contained therein without them buying it (which is flagrantly wrong)? Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:16:36 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: [Mystara] Theme of Mystara In my opinion, the notion of a Law vs. Chaos theme in Mystara is not inherent to the setting, but arises only artifactually in the broader context of the AD&D system, in which it seems unusual that creatures are defined by law/chaos instead of good/evil. Throughout the majority of Mystara's development, the OD&D system was used, in which there is nothing unusual or special about using law/neutrality/chaos as the alignments--there's nothing missing because good/neutral/evil are not part of that system (except see some elemental plane monsters in the Companion Rules). While it is certainly and interesting and viable option as a theme, I think it only seems to be "intended" that way from a AD&D perspective. Although conversion guidelines and other more recent references to the OD&D suggest that OD&D just looks at law vs. chaos and that one should decide the good vs. evil issue for oneself, I have always been under the impression that there was an implicit association in OD&D between law and good, and chaos and evil, that lawful corresponded to good guys and chaotic to bad guys in a very loose sense. Otherwise, I don't think there is any one grand theme intended or emergent from Mystara. There are certainly strong themes, but no one overarching one, I think. It also depends what supplements you use/focus on. For example, the WotI campaign suggests a struggle between the interests of mortals and those of Immortals ("..as flies to wanton boys, so are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport..."). The CoM book and Princess Ark series can been as suggesting a theme of exploration and discovery, expanding frontiers and diversity. Although they fit together, of course, many of the Gazetteers suggest certain campaign themes if one's campaign is set primarily in that country (e.g. the Radiance in Glantri). The Hollow World set suggests an emphasis on history and culture. Mystara is a variegated world that lends itself to gaming-group-specific themes based on what you want to emphasize or deemphasize from what is offered. Everything out there does not sum up to any one thing especially, in my mind, and it is virtually impossible to use all of the possibilities out there in any one campaign without spreading it all too thing and making it a confused mess. /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ ~| David "Azure" Leland ~|~ Email: dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu |~ ~| UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 |~ ~| Oberlin class of 1996 ~|~ Web: http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland |~ ~| Amateur conguero; Q(O+H)Q(G+W)AEEEBGKUS Mystaran; P75 on Ethernet |~ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:36:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris In a message dated 97-04-17 19:06:12 EDT, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << How about a Scottish civilization on that island to the east of Skothar? Failing that, I am absolutely certain that many regions of Norworld (okay, Norwold - does any else compulsively call it Norworld?) have a Scottish influence. >> How about on the Isle of Dawn between Thyatis and Alphatia? I seem to recall reading about many Celtic names being (mis)used there. The Furmenglaives seem to have a Scottish flavor to me -- they are a couple of reluctant werewolves, if my memory serves me correctly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:36:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler In a message dated 97-04-17 18:26:21 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << Actually Gaz13 doesn't give an exact location, anyway it assumes that CotS is located in the midpoint between the KW and the HW. PWA3 later corrected this to 6,000 ft below the surface. I found the latter one more plausible, especially if we want the SE to conquer Alfheim and Oenkmar. But it appears from this thread that PWA3 overcorrected. Given the available evidence, I would say that CotS is closer to the surface of the Known World than of the Hollow World (after all, the Shadow Elves have had much more contact with the Known World than with, say, the Schattenalfen), but much more than a mile down -- it should be far enough that damage from the meteor would have been minimal. Maybe we should add a zero to that "6000 feet figure" -- 60,000 feet would be a little over eleven miles, deep enough to be away from the meteor (and safe by the laws of fantasy physics) but close enough to the surface to reach it on a routine basis. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:36:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? In a message dated 97-04-17 05:48:34 EDT, dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it (DM) writes: << Besides, maybe u don't know well the RL flavour, but it doesn't suffice to be an evil person to be swallowed by the mists: you need also a tragic background of fall from grace and corruption of innocence to be attracted by the Dark Powers (which have nothing to do with Thanatos or other immortals, but i have a personal theory concerning the Vortex and the Mists... however, that's another story...) >> In that case, perhaps Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels would be a better candidate -- in his case there is certainly evidence of tragedy and a fall from grace in his background. Or perhaps Prince Brannart, who became a lich by accident. Outside of Glantri, I might nominate Denwarf of Rockhome -- a golem who was designed to guard his people but eventually became the greatest threat to them. Some of the noble but twisted Shadow Elves might also be possibilities. As for Henri, the aspects of tragedy and fall from grace are possible but not confirmed -- we have only seen him after his "fall", not before. But it appears that we would only need to add a bit of material to his back story to make him fit for Ravenloft. But I must admit that most Mystaran villains do not qualify as lords of Ravenloft. The problem is that most of them are stereotypical villains who are utterly devoted to their evil causes -- they never "fell from grace" and suffer no tragedy other than temporary defeats of final destruction. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:04:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) >>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA???<< I would say that conflict is a major theme, but not of a simple dualistic sort such as good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Evil is ever-present, but seldom presents itself as a threat that the good people of the world can unite against. Instead, evil schemers fan existing hatreds between "good" people so that they end up trying to destroy each other. The _Wrath of the Immortals_ boxed set gives a great example of the sort of conflict that I am talking about. The catastrophes that occur in _Wrath_ are ultimately based on conflicts between the Immortals Rad and Ixion -- both initially Lawful Good adherents to the Sphere of Energy, although if they were player characters they would be admonished about alignment shifts long before it was over. So the short version would be this -- use any sort of plot you like for a Mystaran adventure, but if it is to be a major theme, complicate it so that there is no obvious "right" answer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:58:16 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Yeepie! :) In a message dated 97-04-17 21:50:34 EDT, Leroy writes: << Please, if you wish to further discuss this topic, take it to private e-mail. The subject is considered off-limits as of this point on the Mystara Mailing >> Hurray! It's about time! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:28:58 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Scots! (Was:Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris) >Seems to me there's a place on the Isle of Dawn that had a lot of Scottish names and themes... maybe I'm misremembering... The barony of Caerdwicca was ruled by Uthgaard McRhomaag, a somewhat Scottish-sounding name. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:39:40 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] I'm stopping! Really! In a message dated 97-04-18 01:14:33 EDT, Fabrizio writes: << PS: Bruce, as I told before we had a debate about copyright last year and Ann Dupuis took part too. Well I must say that she said the same thing you said, but in "softer" way. Maybe that's because she no longer works for TSR or because because she's a female :) >> Diplomacy just isn't my thing! At least, you know what I think now. :) Actually, Ann was working as a regular freelance designer. Aah... fond memories of Mystara projects from hell! I'm sure she'll know what I'm referring to. T'was fun while it lasted! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:41:20 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler >>Average altitude of the Silver Sierras is 17000 feet (PWA12) >Never notice this before, but this is very high. The highest point of Rocky mountains is only about 14,400 feets, with average probably around 9 thousand feet. Himalaya averages about 20,000 feet, with Everest reaching about 29,000 feet. So Silver Sierras is close to been highest mountain range if placed on Earth. And if I remember correctly, the mountain range in Norworld is even higher. While the avg. altitude of the main ridge of the Silver Sierras is 17000', the highest peak is only 18,820' (Adruzzo in Darokin). They must therefore be a long, high ridge with only small peaks. Perhaps this could be seen as similar to the Sierra Nevada (nevada=silver: coincidence?) of California. The mountains are basically a long, high chain, but there are only a few major peaks, most of which are volcanic. Also, the average surface of the Broken Lands is 10,000' above sea level, so if CoS is 6,000' below this, then it is actually above sea level! Yet another strange twist. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:07:03 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] More Crater Schtuff Interesting points I noted, after 'brizio's message: 1) If the meteor did hit directly above Corran Keep, then the 60-70 mile crater it created should spread from the Glantri/Darokin border above Ft. Lakeside outward. Hence, Redstone would be destroyed, and Ft. Lakeside would be destroyed, but most of the lands of Caurenze and Silverston are not even closely touched by the impact... hmm. In that case, then the crater doesn't come near to impacting the SE territories, no. 2) Given that the impact point is misstated (as it must be for the crater we see in G:KoM and other places), then the impact point is somewhere around the furthest river (NW) on the GAZ13 map. Compare the G:KoM map to the SE map and you'll see what I mean. 2 miles at its center- the center is somewhere in the hilly terrain of the SS mtns. Still no idea on the height above sea level of the valleys of Glantri. CoM shows that the altitude of the area around the Black Mountains is 5000 feet above sea level. Let's assume that is a base for our level terrain in Glantri. Given that, two miles=5000 feet below surface at impact center. By my calculations (comparing map of G:KoM and GAZ13) there are only a very few areas that would come close to opening into the area on the map- one green area (the 5000 mark) opens up near to the river. This river could, then, possibly, conceivably, maybe be a breach between the crater and the caverns. But it would likely be the only place. Small opening, though I suppose mining could open it further (or SE spells could seal it, on the converse). Another note. Trollhattan is 1300 feet below ground. City of Stars is "more than a thousand feet" directly below Trollhattan. The cavern that the CoS is in is 2000 feet or so high. My figuring: 1300 feet + 1000(+) feet + 2000 feet= in the general range of that 6000 feet underground figure we're searching for. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:13:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >Also, the average surface of the Broken Lands is 10,000' above sea level, so if CoS is 6,000' below this, then it is actually above sea level! Yet another strange twist. D'OH!!! In all my searching for the height above sea level of Glantri, I forgot to check GAZ10 for some indications!! Stupid, stupid, stupid.... Thank you for the info. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:12:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>Another note. Several miles deep. The Nucleus of the Spheres, IIRC, is located 10,000 ft. below Glantri City. With the depths opened up by the Crater, and the exposed caverns nearby, a possible proximity to the NoS is achieved. Possibly even radiation leakage into nearby caverns... hmm. >I doubt this too, because the Nucleus is right under Glantri City, i.e. about 144 miles north-east of the crater center. I just pointed it out as a possible curiosity. I didn't really figure it would make any sort of major impact on anything. :) >About the meteor I've another doubt. WotI says: "...the Masters formally curses those who have defeated him." What does "formally curses" means? Did he send a letter to Chancellor Mauntea, King Stefan Karameikos.... telling them "I curse you!"? :) Maybe he sent an invitation to them. "The Master of Hule, Lord of All Territories West of your Pitiful Republic, hereby Formally Curses you and all of your Pitiful Friends! He sincerely hopes that you will join him in Pyts, where he will enjoy watching you roast in the fiery pits of Entropy for all eternity!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:44:08 +0000 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara & Ravenloft: Beyond the Vortex At 17.13 17/04/97 -0700, Cthulhudrew wrote: WWe don't necessarily know that the Old Ones are good guys- we don't know much about them at all. In fact, I believe it has been mentioned before that the Old Ones could possibly be the "Great Old Ones"- Cthulhu (ahem :), Etc. My idea about the Old Ones is that they are Monitors of Time and Space. They don't intervene normally in the matters of humans and Immortals, but when they see that one or the other prevaricates and threatens the existence of an entire population or of the universe itself, then they take steps covertly to prevent this. We cannot say for sure they are good, but certainly they're not as evil as Thanatos. As for the real identity of the Old Ones, i have another hypothesis, but this would really be only a brave speculation so i won't bother u with my ideas anymore. >Or there could be good Old Ones and bad Old Ones. Interesting hypothesis you have, though. :) Thanks. I always come up with strange things cause i'd like to unifiy all the gaming worlds into one multidimensional and multiplanar Multiverse, and that's part of it. DM (an ambitious fool) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:56:55 +0000 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: [Mystara] Re: Mystara theme At 21.37 17/04/97 +0200, you wrote: >>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? >>Should the Almanac work more into this theme or order and anarchy? Should we try and convert it more to a Good-Evil campaign? Should we just ignore any such theme and just let the world unfold the way it will work? Should we make our own theme? >>Michael Roy >>mroy@cyberus.ca That's a good question: should we? I don't think Mystara needs a theme: its strength is essentially that it's not so strictly attached to ONE particular theme, so that every Master and player has a tabula rasa to shape. I don't mean Mystara is not undeveloped: it is indeed, but it has so many cultures and adventure potential and so many different themes, that it is perfect for everyone to play as he likes most. IMHO, Mystara doesn't need anything more than what its creators have designed and what we are doing here on the list and on other projects. It's a good world where to live and die even without thinking too much about the hidden thread that moves every action of the people: leave it like this. Moreover, there is yet much to discover about Mystara and the Hollow World, so maybe exploration is the hidden theme: after all, every hero is an adventurer, and what are the adventurers looking for? For the unexpected, for the unknown. DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:24:53 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Belcadiz and Ispans So, that's the dates of importance: try to think about them. 1000 BC: Milen and his tribe flee across the Sea of Dread and land on Davania, going deeper into its forests 1000 BC: the ancestors of the Thyatian, Kerendan and Hattian folk rebel against their Nithian overlords and establish their own petty kingdoms (better to call them tribal-lands) in Davania Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:01:06 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #48 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: bbaa572b1d44e892721f3c0f1d7fc01e 800 BC: the Milenian empire is at its peak and it's assimilating and conquering the nearby populations (probably it began to influence the thyantian culture by this time, even though it didn't conquer much of its population cause the thyatians preferred to fight and migrate than to be enslaved) 600 BC: the thyatians, kerendans and hattians migrate to Brun across the ocean, pushed by the Milenians and other warring tribes. Now i ask you: do u think that the Ispan culture developed in Davania in less than 400 years, alongside with the thyatian and hattian and milenian ones? Cause that's what it has been suggested, since the Belcadiz have obviously adopted their ways by the ispans, who are of Kerendan descent (see page 18 of Savage Coast boxed set, DM's book - not Red Steel, but Savage coast). That's my reasoning: the Ispans developed after the Kerendan culture was established, and probably because they were influenced by the Ylari (the Spanish culture is a latin culture, but it has been strongly influenced by the Arabs, who occupied half of the Iberian peninsula during the Middle Ages (remember La Chanson de Roland?), and that's one of the reasons (not the only one) why it developed so differently from the Italian and French ones, who are nevertheless very close. Going further along this idea then, it is obvious to me that the Ispan culture has been established only after the three tribes came to Brun and established their own kingdom, and that maybe it originated in the area known as the Duchy of Tel Akbir and Duchy of Retebius. So IMO the Belcadiz are a branch of Vyalia who adopted the ispan culture and intermarried with ispans, as i've said. There is however another possibility: a lost race that dwelt on Davania at those times (until 600 BC) who influenced the kerendan ispans and the Belcadiz alike, though in different periods, and that was probably eradicated or swallowed by the conquering Milenians. Now it should be located somewhere in the hollow world, probably on the Merry Pirate Isles (?). Just some thoughts DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:11:17 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >increase. And the sphere of Entropy must be fuming about that dratted artifact in Glantri draining their power (I know this is not canon Which poses a question: Now that the Nucleus drains power from Entropy, how does the Immortal-making spell from Glantri Gazetteer work? Does it still make the caster an Energy immortal, or what? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 12:36:38 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) Patrick writes: >>>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? >I think that the thing that makes Mystara great is that it can have any theme the DM wishes, in any setting. Mystara is, more than anything else, I thought the Mystaran theme was "Magic-Happy"... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy In a message dated 97-04-18 05:55:13 EDT, Aron writes: << In fact, a gold dragon COULD be a lawful evil dragon (although it's unlikely).>> Yeah, but then it all *fake* gold. :) Thus is born the "new" Pyrite Dragon. One of many possible Geonid-Dragon subraces? Hmm... I see new opportunities for a whole slew of Geologic Dragons -- here come the Draconids! Complete with plasma breath and quake-spit (they suck rocks too), etc. And he runs away screamin' as the thought of crossing a modron with a dragon also strikes his mind. Thump. Ow. Bruce Heard PS. Okay, modrons have nothing to do with geonids, but hey, it was fun. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:28:43 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) In a message dated 97-04-18 14:17:09 EDT, Joe Duncan writes: << I thought the Mystaran theme was "Magic-Happy"... >> Happy, happy, joy, joy Happy, happy, joy... Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:26:36 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >>>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? >To me, one of the things about Mystara that makes it far more appealing than most worlds is that it doesn't have a "theme". It deals with (relatively) real situations and peoples- no 'good' vs. 'evil'; no black and white themes; real people aren't black and white like that. It deals with moral dilemmas, political crises. >Maybe the theme, then, is real life. (Well, fantasy real life. :) Right! That is pretty much my feeling. The best thing about Mystara, IMO, is that it has no one theme to define it. As you and another person have already said, Mystara is a place where earth in all its diversity is represented, where most of the real-life cultures, mostly past, can be represented with a twist of fantasy added in. What other world has Vikings next to Arabs, Indians next to Native Americans next to England??? (That is, taking the slightly wild assumption that the Five Shires is loosely based on Tolkien's Shire, which in turn was grounded in Warwickshire.) If anything, Mystara's theme is fantasy diversity. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:49:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: WWWWHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA???<< >I would say that conflict is a major theme, but not of a simple dualistic sort >such as good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Evil is ever-present, but seldom presents itself as a threat that the good people of the world can unite against. Instead, evil schemers fan existing hatreds between "good" people so that they end up trying to destroy each other. Yes. Just like the real world, conflicts are not simple good vs. evil on Mystara. >The _Wrath of the Immortals_ boxed set gives a great example of the sort of conflict that I am talking about. The catastrophes that occur in _Wrath_ are ultimately based on conflicts between the Immortals Rad and Ixion -- both initially Lawful Good adherents to the Sphere of Energy, although if they were player characters they would be admonished about alignment shifts long before it was over. Hold on - I thought Ixion and Rad were both Neutral (OD&D) Immortals. Surely they would transfer to AD&D Alignments as either Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Good or True Neutral? Rad certainly is NOT Lawful (in relation to the Immortals' laws, at any rate), and Ixion is not, IMO, Good - he is Neutral. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:53:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >Thus is born the "new" Pyrite Dragon. One of many possible Geonid-Dragon subraces? Hmm... I see new opportunities for a whole slew of Geologic Dragons -- here come the Draconids! Complete with plasma breath and quake-spit (they suck rocks too), etc. And he runs away screamin' as the thought of crossing a modron with a dragon also strikes his mind. Thump. Ow. That reminds me of a couple of dragons I had created once (theoretically) based on the Unified Field Theorem- Strong Force Dragon (w/Plasma Breath), Weak Force Dragon (w/Radiation Breath), Gravity Dragon (w/? breath- didn't really figure this one out...), and Electromagnetic Dragon (w/Lightning Breath). And of course, a Spell Dragon, w/Spellfire Breath (from Forgotten Realms), to cover the 'fifth' element of the Unified Field Theorem in a fantasy world. Didn't really think of good names for them all, though. Strong and Weak Dragons didn't really work (Hey! It's a weak Dragon! Aaaahhhhhh!!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:59:38 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: HHow about on the Isle of Dawn between Thyatis and Alphatia? I seem to recall reading about many Celtic names being (mis)used there. The Furmenglaives seem to have a Scottish flavor to me -- they are a couple of reluctant werewolves, if my memory serves me correctly. Hmm. Werewolves aren't exactly Scottish - more English Midlands and Yorkshire Dales, or the Moors. However, being ruled by a large Empire strikes pretty close to home (not that I'm a nationalist - I'm talking about Scottish history). Fighting for independence would be a very Scottish way of defining the nation. I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to have werewolves in there too, though. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:50:49 +0200 From: nlangle Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian History do you know where i could find informations about nithian kingdoms on the net or elswhere because in france i can't find anything Nicolas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:40:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >>Thus is born the "new" Pyrite Dragon. One of many possible Geonid-Dragon subraces? Hmm... I see new opportunities for a whole slew of Geologic Dragons -- here come the Draconids! Complete with plasma breath and quake-spit (they suck rocks too), etc. And he runs away screamin' as the thought of crossing a modron with a dragon also strikes his mind. Thump. Ow. >That reminds me of a couple of dragons I had created once (theoretically) based on the Unified Field Theorem- Strong Force Dragon (w/Plasma Breath), Weak Force Dragon (w/Radiation Breath), Gravity Dragon (w/? breath- didn't really figure this one out...), and Electromagnetic Dragon (w/Lightning Breath). And of course, a Spell Dragon, w/Spellfire Breath (from Forgotten Realms), to cover the 'fifth' element of the Unified Field Theorem in a fantasy world. For the Gravity Dragon, you could have attraction/repulsion inhalation/breath, that would force victims into the mouth (hello, lunch!) or away at a VERY uncomfortable rate. :) David Leland dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:03:26 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) At 12:36 PM 4/18/97 EDT, you wrote: >Patrick writes: >>>>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? >>I think that the thing that makes Mystara great is that it can have any theme the DM wishes, in any setting. Mystara is, more than anything else, >I thought the Mystaran theme was "Magic-Happy"... I've got a magic missile scroll in my trunk... you'd better count yourself lucky, punk... Magic-Happy, Magic-Happy every daaaay! :) P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:00:42 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships At 03:27 PM 4/7/97 +0600, you wrote: >In various posts during the past few weeks, several people have made claims that both Darokin and Karameikos have airships. Others have asked the question, but as of yet nobody has answered, so I'll ask again: Where is this information coming from? I've got just about everything published about Mystara, and I've never heard about airships from either country. Granted, my memory isn't the best around, so I might have forgotten some facts here or there. I would appreciate somebody giving me some references so that I can re-read those sections. Airships in either Darokin or Karameikos would certainly alter any campaign that I would be running in those areas. Actually I stated my source in my first post, but you must have missed it. Sorry for taking so long to reply. Ok, as for Karameikos, I was referring to the Karameikan Polar Expedition, which I assumed was on a Karameikan airship, but someone who read about it said it was a Heldann one. I think it's in the PWA3 and MA5. In AC11: Book of Wondrous Inventions, I noticed a Darokinian device called Volospin's Dragonfly. Even though it came out before the Princess Ark series or CoM, it is essentially an airship. There was also one or two others in there, and I thought they should be given CoM stats (in addition to their original ones.) Someone mentioned that the only major airships around the known world are the Heldann Warbirds, which are powered by an immortal artifact, and perhaps implied there wasn't really enough magic to make airships elsewhere in the KW. I disagree. Yes, the Heldann ships are *powered* by an artifact, but it takes a lot of other magic to *construct* them. So Glantri shouldn't have airships then, when the Heldann Freeholds do? Even Ylaruam has an airship. Demihuman clan relics produce various craft also, whether they're all airships or not, I don't recall. I know some people that use CoM might not want more countries with airships, but IMO it's good to update previous information. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:03:10 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] dragons (was: From Micheal Roy) At 01:53 PM 4/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >>Thus is born the "new" Pyrite Dragon. One of many possible Geonid-Dragon subraces? Hmm... I see new opportunities for a whole slew of Geologic Dragons -- here come the Draconids! Complete with plasma breath and quake-spit (they suck rocks too), etc. And he runs away screamin' as the thought of crossing a modron with a dragon also strikes his mind. Thump. Ow. >That reminds me of a couple of dragons I had created once (theoretically) based on the Unified Field Theorem- Strong Force Dragon (w/Plasma Breath), Weak Force Dragon (w/Radiation Breath), Gravity Dragon (w/? breath- didn't really figure this one out...), and Electromagnetic Dragon (w/Lightning Breath). And of course, a Spell Dragon, w/Spellfire Breath (from Forgotten Realms), to cover the 'fifth' element of the Unified Field Theorem in a fantasy world. Perhaps the gravity dragon could simply open it's mouth and blow you away without needing any wind. All dragons can cast spells, so what about "Dweomer Dragon", instead of "Spell Dragon". Sweomer is the measure of magic power, is it not? Of course you could get into other types of fantasy forces as well... Planar stuff perhaps... maybe even psionics. Has anyone read the book "The Universal Mind"? P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics [I cut some stuff] >Like the Trees of Life, gnomish relics are avatars of the gnomes' Immortal (and creator), Garal Glitterlode. However, the gnomish relic is of a completely different kind from the other demihuman relics. It fills an entire room in the heart of the clan stronghold or meeting place. It consists of hundreds of whirring gears, metal tubes and pipes, valves, levers, buttons, dials, grills, flashing lights and little plates of glass. Of course it is never left untended, and there are always at least a few gnomish engineers running around the little platforms and walkways, meddling and "improving" on it. Still, they probably shouldn't be able to totally screw it up, since it is a relic after all. >But what does it do? Well, it has number of different functions. First, it serves as the centre for the gnomes' communication tubes (most gnome stongholds have some form of communication system [internal, but sometimes external too] which utilises air tubes and message cylinders). Second, it is a source of "power" for some of the gnomes' inventions (usually menial house-work inventions). Third, it has a limited form of intelligence (being an avatar of Garal Glitterlode), and it can answer questions the gnomes ask of it. The questions are spoken into a metal tube, and answers appear magically on the little glass plates. Of course, the answers are not always helpful, and very often pretty obscure. But when it comes to the realms of Fantasy Physics, it can be quite informative and helpful (perhaps giving a +2 bonus to the Fantasy Physics skill checks of a gnome who consults with it?). >I'm sure it can do other things too, but I'm not sure what they could be. It would also be nice to be able to compare it to the other relics, but unfortunately I don't have my D&D stuff with me right now. :-( >By the way, this stuff is sort of loosely based on a few bits of PC2 (which is one of my favourite D&D accessories). >So what do you think? I like this idea a lot. It just seems like an obvious relic for gnomes. It sounds better than that time-travelling one, so..., well, restricted. Gnomes might get bored of it soon and want to do stuff with other inventions. Maybe they didn't have an artifact like the one you described, because IIRC, if "tinkering" gnomes weren't in folklore, they first appeared in Dragonlance, and maybe they wanted to preserve the diversity between worlds. Oh well, who cares. Invention-making gnomes are another of those "staples" of fantasy which I happen to like, because stuff like that is a big part of what makes it fantasy. Ok, I've some ideas for this invention. I wonder what it should be called. Maybe each clan should have a name for their own like, "The Sacred Supreme Super-Frangleblanzer Archdoodad Imagination Machine." These could produce Oil of Starlight, since the other relics produce oils of darkness, sunlight, and moonlight. Starlight seems right for gnomes, coming from something unknown that would likely fascinate and inspire them. I wonder what it could do... make another type of ship, or perhaps it could do something to help their inventions travel better. All other relics aid in a little spellcasting, so perhaps gnomish ones should too. I think it could also be used to construct magical and high quality invention parts. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #48 **************************** Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:46:00 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #49 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: aaa2f01e0fee06e0338f66b687a27b2a mystara-digest Saturday, April 19 1997 Volume 02 : Number 049 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:38:16 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships >For the magic needed to make them, see above. As for the Volospin's Dragonflies, I seem to recall in GAZ3 in the adventure section, a mention of a specific type of fuel needed to power these- as both were written by Bruce, I'd say both entries are valid. Using the fuel bit, it makes sense that the Dragonflies are not as all powerful and useful as they might seem. I just wrote a post talking about some of this stuff so I won't restate it. Yes, I seem to recall that the dragonflies needed a rare ore to make fuel. That's good, they shouldn't be too powerful. I don't think many people would want airships flying through the skies of all Mystara, and having too much influence. Still, Volospin's Dragonflies fly, and perhaps need airship stats. The info. is there to be used, after all. >>Anyway, Glantri used these in a war against dragons...maybe something for a timeline. One could use it to add flavor in the time of the Dragonlord perhaps, but it's been a long time since I read the 1st 2 books so I don't know if it would fit into the plot... >I think you're thinking of the adventure entry in GAZ3... Interesting. I got that from AC11 actually, I don't have GAZ3. However, maybe I should get it before I write anything about the dragonflies. An advanced player in one of my campaigns designed a unique airship, which I wanted to write up, and do other airship stuff with it. Ill have to get him to send me the info. though, since I was forced to move. :{ P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:38:37 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships >For the magic needed to make them, see above. As for the Volospin's Dragonflies, I seem to recall in GAZ3 in the adventure section, a mention of a specific type of fuel needed to power these- as both were written by Bruce, I'd say both entries are valid. Using the fuel bit, it makes sense that the Dragonflies are not as all powerful and useful as they might seem. I just wrote a post talking about some of this stuff so I won't restate it. Yes, I seem to recall that the dragonflies needed a rare ore to make fuel. That's good, they shouldn't be too powerful. I don't think many people would want airships flying through the skies of all Mystara, and having too much influence. Still, Volospin's Dragonflies fly, and perhaps need airship stats. The info. is there to be used (if one wants to), after all. >>Anyway, Glantri used these in a war against dragons...maybe something for a timeline. One could use it to add flavor in the time of the Dragonlord perhaps, but it's been a long time since I read the 1st 2 books so I don't know if it would fit into the plot... >I think you're thinking of the adventure entry in GAZ3... Interesting. I got that from AC11 actually, I don't have GAZ3. However, maybe I should get it before I write anything about the dragonflies. An advanced player in one of my campaigns designed a unique airship, which I wanted to write up, and do other airship stuff with it. Ill have to get him to send me the info. though, since I was forced to move. :{ P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:17:00 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy At 01:00 PM 4/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-18 05:55:13 EDT, Aron writes: ><< In fact, a gold dragon COULD be a lawful evil dragon (although it's unlikely).>> >Yeah, but then it all *fake* gold. :) >Thus is born the "new" Pyrite Dragon. One of many possible Geonid-Dragon subraces? Hmm... I see new opportunities for a whole slew of Geologic Dragons -- here come the Draconids! Complete with plasma breath and quake-spit (they suck rocks too), etc. And he runs away screamin' as the thought of crossing a modron with a dragon also strikes his mind. Thump. Ow. and don't forget the chaotic good red dragon, the asbestos dragon. The breath weapon doesn't hurt you initially, but a few years down the road... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu (maybe taking a joke too far...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:26:49 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships At 07:00 PM 4/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 03:27 PM 4/7/97 +0600, you wrote: >>In various posts during the past few weeks, several people have made claims that both Darokin and Karameikos have airships. Others have asked the question, but as of yet nobody has answered, so I'll ask again: Where is this information coming from? I've got just about everything published about Mystara, and I've never heard about airships from either country. Granted, my memory isn't the best around, so I might have forgotten some facts here or there. I would appreciate somebody giving me some references so that I can re-read those sections. Airships in either Darokin or Karameikos would certainly alter any campaign that I would be running in those areas. >Actually I stated my source in my first post, but you must have missed it. Sorry for taking so long to reply. Ok, as for Karameikos, I was referring to the Karameikan Polar Expedition, which I assumed was on a Karameikan airship, but someone who read about it said it was a Heldann one. I think it's in the PWA3 and MA5. ah, ok, I remember that now. ok, the Karameikan airships are explained... >In AC11: Book of Wondrous Inventions, I noticed a Darokinian device called Volospin's Dragonfly. Even though it came out before the Princess Ark series or CoM, it is essentially an airship. There was also one or two others in there, and I thought they should be given CoM stats (in addition to their original ones.) you've got it almost right...Volospin's Dragonfly was named after Prince Volospin, a Glantrian Wizard-Prince. That would make the Dragonfly a Glantrian airship. In fact, if you have GAZ3, there's an adventure featuring the Dragonfly. >Someone mentioned that the only major airships around the known world are the Heldann Warbirds, which are powered by an immortal artifact, and perhaps implied there wasn't really enough magic to make airships elsewhere in the KW. I disagree. Yes, the Heldann ships are *powered* by an artifact, but it takes a lot of other magic to *construct* them. So Glantri shouldn't have airships then, when the Heldann Freeholds do? Even Ylaruam has an airship. Demihuman clan relics produce various craft also, whether they're all airships or not, I don't recall. I know some people that use CoM might not want more countries with airships, but IMO it's good to update previous information. Glantrians DO have airships, although I seem to remember that they were in very limited supply. Nothing like the air-navies of Heldann or Alphatia, though. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:34:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Countrspel@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler In a message dated 97-04-18 05:41:00 EDT, you write: << (nevada=silver: coincidence?) >> In what language is this? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships David Melik pontificated: >So Glantri shouldn't >have airships then, when the Heldann Freeholds do? Well, Heldannic Airships are sort of a special case, they are not build by Heldannic natives. >Even Ylaruam has an >airship. Where is that from? >Demihuman clan relics produce various craft also, whether they're all airships or not, I don't recall. Dwarven ship doesn't fly, just go through rocks. However, both Elves and Halfling's flyship are quite poor when compared to human airship (small, can only fly for half of the day, and takes very long to build), probably because at the time when they are created, flying ships were supposed to be very rare. With airships became quite a bit more numerous in Mystara now, those demihuman ship could use some upgrade. >I know some people that use CoM might >not want more countries with airships, but IMO it's good to update previous information. As I said in an earlier post, with military balance being so unstable now in the known world, and the power of airships well demonstrated, most nations probably are working on improving their airpower. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:30:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: >>Also, who should win? Should Ramose and the side of good win? Should he regain his clerical powers? Or should Semkha win, producing another nation of Entropy in the Hollow World? My vote would be on Ramose, with the war carried out in mostly conventional method (ie. no burrowers involved) >>WHAT IS THE THEME OF MYSTARA??? To me, Mystara, more than other game world, allows the growth of player characters. They can start out as unknown commoners to became major powers in the mortal world to finally became part of the pantheon of the world. This is also shown in NPCs such as Thincol, from gladator to emperor, several Glantri princes who start out as minor nobles. Don't know whether that consider as a "theme" or not. Also, Mystara is more of a high fantasy than other world. Magic is more powerful, character is more powerful, creatures is more powerful, everything is just a bit grander and more colorful when compared to other worlds. >>By the old products, it seems that Mystara was originally intended to be a Law vs. Chaos setting. Good and Evil were ignored in OD&D alignment systems. I personally never really liked that. To me it seems like they use law and chaos as "cooler" way of saying good and evil when D&D is simplfied to a three alignment system. In the earlier products, lawful is basiclly good, and chaoic is same as evil. But when Mystara switch to AD&D system, the somewhat awkard explaintion (IMO) was used. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:50:04 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragons (was From Micheal Roy) On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >That reminds me of a couple of dragons I had created once (theoretically) based on the Unified Field Theorem- Strong Force Dragon (w/Plasma Breath), Weak Force Dragon (w/Radiation Breath), Gravity Dragon (w/? breath- didn't really figure this one out...), and Electromagnetic Dragon (w/Lightning Breath). And of course, a Spell Dragon, w/Spellfire Breath (from Forgotten Realms), to cover the 'fifth' element of the Unified Field Theorem in a fantasy world. >Didn't really think of good names for them all, though. Strong and Weak Dragons didn't really work (Hey! It's a weak Dragon! Aaaahhhhhh!!) I guess that one question is with me, as the house physicist. You could try using the particles that intermediate each force, so you'd have graviton, photon (eletromagnetic), gluon (strong) and ... Well, then it gets complicated. Weak force is mediated by 3 particles with no good names, W+, W- and Z0. Maybe zoww? Your gravity dragon could use the suggestions from other people in the list, as well as others. Reverse gravity could be devastating in open spaces or his breath could be a tremendously strong gravitational field, with tide effects capable of ripping one apart (translated into the apropriate damage, of course). Andre Martins ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:14:21 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Western Karameikos Hi everyone. About a week and a half ago, I asked if anyone would be interested in my development of Western Karameikos, loosely based on by Lloyd Alexander. Several people expressed interest, so I am posting this to the mailing list. Given the recent copyright debate, i should like to make clear that much of this material is derived from the excellent work of Lloyd Alexander and that of TSR. I'm sorry it's taken so long, but here it is... Geography: The Cruth Lowlands are very sparsely settled, wild, empty lands. Small Traladaran farms and tiny villages occur occasionally along the rivers or on one of many smaller tributary streams. Narrow trails, barely discernable to the untrained eye, wind through the countryside, connecting the isolated villages. The Black Peak Mountains form a beautiful backdrop for these lands (see the picture on p. 5 in K:KoA). They rise from only about 1,500 feet above sea level to peaks over 5,000 feet. The two most dominating mountains are Mt. Tybor (5,100'), known to the locals as Mt. Achelos, which juts sharply out into the surrounding lowlands between the Magos and Gustos Rivers. Mt. Dread (5,400'), farther East, is a high, isolated mountain with a bad reputation; a unique situation causes Mt. Dread to be visible from many sites far away: Riverfork Keep, the village of Verge, and, on especially clear days, the treetops of the southern Canolbarth forest. Lights, possibly large fires, are frequently seen atop Mt. Dread on the Equinoxes or Solstices, and sometimes on the Day of the Dead, but for as long as anyone can remember, massive fires blaze on the Night of Fire, indicating that a great treasure must be buried on the mountain. However, few brave Mt. Dread, and even fewer return. The Mountains are inhabited by several races of giants, some of whom are rumored to have a predilection for human flesh. The Cruth Lowlands are a very old country: broad river valleys carved in eons past by great glaciers. Towering bluffs and stony hills, canyons shich wind for miles to end up simply as a dead-end box canyon, hanging valleys, beautiful layers of sedimentary rock, all rise above the marginally-forested valleys, which serve as the home for the majority of the human population. The hills are extremely isolated, inhabited by the occasional ogre or bugbear, and teeming with wildlife. The rivers run lazily through the hills; all are navigable until near their sources. The Achelos' River is officially named the Black Peak River, but the locals still use its traditional name. History: The Cruth Lowlands have always been rather sparsely settled. The inhabitants of this area were enslaved by the Beast-men during that epic invasion, until the forces of Halav drove the beast-men to defeat. Around 800 B.C., this area was claimed as a kingdom by a man named Achelos Chardastes, who claimed to be a direct descendant of King Halav. Achelos established a capital on the river named for him, nearly due north of the current location of Koriszegy Keep. Achelos was a wise and benificent king who helped protect his followers from the monsters of the area. He was also noted as a great healer and worker of miracles, so the people loved him greatly. Soon after Achelos abdicated the throne in favor of his daughter he disappeared, but the people believed that Achelos would return to protect them in the future. For the next 17 centuries, the dynasty (renamed Vargos after Achelos' daughter married) ruled the area very loosely, trying as best they could to protect it from various threats. The legends of Achelos grew greater and greater, and he was soon venerated as an immortal. Remarkably, clerics who dedicated themselves to his teachings received spells and clerical benefits. This continued for 17 centuries, until the Thyatians began attempting to conquer Traladara in 900 AC. The Cruth lowlands were the target of a military operation launched from Tel Akbir and led by the intelligent and dashing General Muktar al Harb. The King had died only a year before the invasion, and his son, Achelos Vargos (King Achelos II), took the throne. The new Achelos and Muktar were both honorable, expert adventurers, and they fought each other for years, the Thyatian invaders paying dearly for each advance they made; the Traladaran defenders slowly retreating toward the Black Peaks. According to legend, Muktar finally sent a magical army against Achelos, defeating him. Muktar established his command at Riverfork Keep, and, even through the acquisition of Traladara by Stefan Karameikos, the area has remained under the control of the invaders from Tel Akbir, now under Karameikos. The area suffered greatly from the attacks of the Black Eagle Barony, but it seemed at times that the Fury did less than it could have to prevent these raids. Sites: Rivefork Keep is still the center of the Thyatian presence in this area. It has a village of about 500 people surrounding it, but it is dominated by "The Fury of the West," a battalion of Karmeikos' Fifth Division. Many smaller villages dot the countryside. The ruins of what are claimed to be Achelos' castle, although mostly destroyed by a series of earthquakes soon after Achelos' defeat, are located on the Achelos River north of Radlebb and Koriszegy Keeps. At the foot of Mt. Tybor (Mt. Achelos) is a large cave complex which is partially unexplored. Note that while a river, a large forest, a prominent mountain, and many other geographical features bear Achelos' name, it is unlawful in these parts to refer to them as such (Thyatian names, i.e. Riverfork Woods, Mt. Tybor, etc., must be used). Customs: The Traladarans of this area share many customs with other Traladarans. In addition, they are highly likely to follow the immortal Chardastes (known to them as Achelos) and follow older, season-based rituals. The Traladarans also believe strongly in their would-be savior, Achelos. They still believe fervently that Achelos will return to save his people. They resist the attempts to convert them to the Church of Karameikos, and they despise their Thyatian overlords far more than do other Traladarans. The Thyatians, on the other hand, enjoy brutally suppressing rebellion in the Traladarans. It is illegal to refer to natural features as "Achelos'" anything, and the soldiers brutally put down any insurrection. On the other hand, the soldiers do help greatly to protect all the inhabitants from attacks by Giants, ogres, or bugbears. Personalities: General Nizar al Harb: (F8, AL: LN) Commander of The Fury of the West and descendent of Muktar. Suleiman is overwhelmed by his task as commander of Riverfork Keep. He spends most of his time running the Keep itself, and the rest is focused primarily on destroying the humanoids in the area. He would prefer to live in peace with the Traladarans, but he cannot bear the threat they make to his authority. He therefore authorizes his advisors to do pretty much as they wish with the ethnic population. Captain Suleiman ibn Subay (F6, AL:LE) Administrative Captain, second-in-command. Suleiman pretty much runs the show at Riverfork Keep. He has accepted bribes from the Black Eagle Baron for years (Ludwig would send criminals to the Cruth lowlands simply to be killed by the Fury to show that they were fighting VonHendriks). Now that this source of income is gone (in 1011, i believe), Suleiman is casting around for a new patron. In the meantime, he is perfectly content to go on brutalizing the Traladarans just for the sheer pleasure of it. He has many spies, so he knows nearly everything that goes on near the Keep, and he occasionally Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:46:00 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #49 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: aaa2f01e0fee06e0338f66b687a27b2a arranges the disappearance of a "problematic guest" (i.e., anyone who tries to dig beneath the surface of affairs in the Cruth lowlands). Suleiman is completely without morals or ethics regarding anything whatsoever; Ludwig vonHendriks loved him. Natasha Tibonerial: (MU6, AL:CN) Magist of the Fury of the West. Natasha is the daughter of immigrants from Thyatis City. She was also on vonHendriks' payroll. She really has no interest in the Traladarans, she simply wishes to live in as much comfort as possible. She has several business ventures operating in the lowlands that she will try VERY hard to protect. For now, she believes that her best bet is to retain her alliance with Suleiman, but she would desert him if she really thought it was for her best. Mahmud Buqumius: (C6, AL LN) Mahmud is the chief chaplain of the Fury of the West. He is an elder of the Church of Karameikos. He is not a bad individual at all, but his primary intent is to win converts to the Church, so he has no love for most of the ethnic Traladarans and their stories of Achelos. Achelos: (?, Al: N) Of course, there is currently a Traladaran leader who calls himself Achelos. He claims to be of the lineage of the Royal Family, and, from his secret base (in the caves at the foot of Mt. Achelos) he directs the effort to kick out the Thyatians from this part of Traladara. It is up to the DM to decide whether this is the real Achelos Chardastes, travelling forward in time to help his dynasty, or if the true Chardastes will return to bring a peaceful coexistence between the Thyatians and Traladarans. Well, I think that's most of what I have. I would appreciate comments and/or suggestions if you have any. Patrick P.S.- If this does interest you, I highly recommend that you read the book:) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:29:14 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler ><< (nevada=silver: coincidence?) >> >In what language is this? Spanish. Silver is a common translation of nevada, although it more accurately means silver-colored. Very frequently, as in the Sierra Nevada, this means snow-covered. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:34:25 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >Which poses a question: Now that the Nucleus drains power from Entropy, how does the Immortal-making spell from Glantri Gazetteer work? Does it still make the caster an Energy immortal, or what? Actually, G:KoM ignores WotI and states that the artifact still drains from the sphere of Energy, thereby granting immortality in that sphere. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:41:35 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Crater Schtuff >Interesting points I noted, after 'brizio's message: >1) If the meteor did hit directly above Corran Keep, then the 60-70 mile crater it created should spread from the Glantri/Darokin border above Ft. >Lakeside outward. Hence, Redstone would be destroyed, and Ft. Lakeside would be destroyed, but most of the lands of Caurenze and Silverston are not even closely touched by the impact... hmm. Look at the picture in WotI. It gives a visual explanation of how this could be correct. The meteor could have hit at an angle, directly atop Corran Keep, after coming in from the South over Lake Amsorak. The Destruction it wreaks would then be focused northward, in Glantri. I don't know if it works, but it's my idea. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:33:12 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships >Someone mentioned that the only major airships around the known world are the Heldann Warbirds, which are powered by an immortal artifact, and perhaps >implied there wasn't really enough magic to make airships elsewhere in the >KW. I disagree. Yes, the Heldann ships are *powered* by an artifact, but >it takes a lot of other magic to *construct* them. So Glantri shouldn't have airships then, when the Heldann Freeholds do? Even Ylaruam has an airship. Demihuman clan relics produce various craft also, whether they're >all airships or not, I don't recall. I know some people that use CoM might >not want more countries with airships, but IMO it's good to update previous >information. Wait, I'm still lost. Ylaruam has an airship? Do you mean Sind? Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:37:16 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler >>About the meteor I've another doubt. WotI says: "...the Masters formally >>curses those who have defeated him." What does "formally curses" means? Did >>he send a letter to Chancellor Mauntea, King Stefan Karameikos.... telling >>them "I curse you!"? :) >Maybe he sent an invitation to them. "The Master of Hule, Lord of All Territories West of your Pitiful Republic, hereby Formally Curses you and >all of your Pitiful Friends! He sincerely hopes that you will join him in >Pyts, where he will enjoy watching you roast in the fiery pits of Entropy >for all eternity!" Several of my characters were instrumental in his defeat, so, at that time, a huge, dark, fast-moving storm raced across the cursed lands, maniacal laughing was heard in the wind, and everyone who helped defeat the Master had nasty dreams about a curse. The clouds gathered back together and settled over Northern Darokin, remaining until the meteor hit. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:21:10 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler At 23.13 17/04/97 -0700, Chtulhudrew wrote: OOn Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >>Also, the average surface of the Broken Lands is 10,000' above sea level, so if CoS is 6,000' below this, then it is actually above sea level! Yet another strange twist. I think it means 6,000' below sea level, not below Broken Lands level. >D'OH!!! In all my searching for the height above sea level of Glantri, I forgot to check GAZ10 for some indications!! Stupid, stupid, stupid.... And you also forgot to check the PWA: Glantri City 4,800' >Thank you for the info. :) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:21:14 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy >Return-Path: >Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:11:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: mroy@cyberus.ca (Unverified) >To: brizio@lunet.it >From: Michael Roy >Subject: Foward to Mailing List >>... Same as your publishing the PWAs. I like them but you are now making decisions about Mystaras future that TSR has no control over. If Mystara reopens your material will conflict with what TSR material. And then we hhave a >problem. Who is right about this fantasy world. ... >Fist of all, I looked around at the TSR copyright rules before sending the "Mystaran Almanac AC 1014" to the list. Because the Almanac deals with "new" material, describing places and events not described in previously published materials, it is ok... PROVIDED IT IS PLACED ON AN APPROVED TSR SITE!!! Which it has been. A copy is uploaded at MPGN. Unfortunately, that copy was not placed in the Mystara section (it's currently still trapped in "incoming"), but we're working to get that fixed. Once the Mystara Page for TSR is up, we'll send it a copy as well (almost ready there Bruce? :) ). >I completely agree with you on the point as to what will be the "true Mystara" problem. In fact, that was a problem I myself had to deal with with for the entire PWA series. IMC, the players played with the Doomsday Device and placed the tiny red dot over Thyatis. CConsequence: Mainland Thyatis, Karameikos, and Ylaruam are now under the sea. Further Consequences: Alphatia wiped Glantri off the face of Mystara. Also, Barimoor (GAZ 2) was not to pleased to lose his work and realm he spent hundreds of years on and has vowed vengence against the players, and they have yet to realize this. >All this to say: WHO IS RIGHT? TSR? or my campaign? Or what I've placed into the Mystaran Almanac? >The answer is relatively simple... no one and everyone. TSR provides a campaign material and background according to their game/desires (and I personally think they do a great job! Kutos to Bruce Heard, Ann Dupuis, and Aaron Allston!). I PLAY my campaign according to mine and those of my players. I actually have several Mystara "campaigns"... most are compatible, but some are radically different. Some I play using OD&D, others AD&D, some GURPS, and there is even one where we don't use any rules and just invent consequences as we go (this campaign is more silly than serious, but it's a lot of fun!) >And I'm willing to bet none of you on the list has an identical campaign style or setting! >As such, the Mystaran Almanac is but a POSSIBLE version of the future (or, for some campaigns, the past...), and we'll probably continue making more for those who like THAT PARTICULAR alternate future. Nowhere do I claim that what was written IS THE LAW OF MYSTARA!!! If TSR/WotC come out with something else, I'll still be there in line to buy their product, regardless if it comes into conflict with my campaign. Why not? I have so far, and many of their products don't go into my campaigns... AS IS! The trick is to modify them to fit... Mystara is as much the DM's world as it is TSRs. >NO, I AM NOT CHALLENGING THEIR RIGHTS/OWNERSHIPS, SO NO COPYRIGHT DEBATES PLEASE. I for one agree with the TSR policies! >I mean it in a playing fashion. Even TSR has come up with an answer to that with their "REALITY SHIFT" rules presented in a few products... basicaly, you get new rules, new info, and POOF! the world changes. Either pretend it has always been, find another way to introduce it (have a Godswar which changes the way magic works! :) ), or just start another campaign... IIMCs, we use to get tired of playing the same characters every single time, so we each made a few new ones and played different adventures. And for each new group, we added new rules or setting events (ex: campaign A uses Wrath of the Immortals setting modifications/events, campaign B doesn't.. both set in AC 1015). I've just started a game set during the fall of the Surface Milenean Empire... will the results be the same as in the Official TSR Mystaran Timeline? Probably not if my players have anything to say about it. Just let your campaign go wherever you/your players feel like it, and so what if it's not cannon! >So TSR (or WotC), if you want to make something that conflicts with my suggested timeline, go right ahead... don't let me stop you :) Can't wait to read it. I doubt people would take the list ideas (except for a few individuals per idea) over a Mystara product anyways... I mean, if we couldn't even give ideas in case it might come into conflict with their ideas and future products, then why even bother having a Mailing List? IIn fact, in December 97, the AC 1015 alternate Mystara history version should come out (hopefully)... if TSR (or WotC) disapproves with that, please, let us know now so we don't waste hundreds of hours on it (we've already started). I'd be willing to cancel that project on but the word "stop it." I've yet to hear anything from TSR about the AC 1014 version except that "if it's up at MPGN, then it's ok." (and yes, I did ask) >I freely admit to cannibalize TSR and other gaming works to form my own settings. Why? Because I intend to have fun, not be boggled down by what should or should not be. I still buy TSR (and other) products because they always give me something to fall back on whenever we start over (it's easier to introduce another version of Mystara to players familiar with it then to start over with a completely new world). SSo if you are worried about the Mystaran Almanac not being the future intended by the company, don't be. I can tell you right now that it ISN'T!!! Just don't use it and take out whatever ideas you like... ignore the rest! >And who knows? Maybe TSR (or WotC) might actually browse through this list and take ideas from it and actually use it... after all, they're ideas, not laws, and anyone can do anything they want with them... (Yes, I am an optimistic dreamer... :) ) >PS: To answer other questions on the list, yes, I always used to call Norwold "Norworld" for some odd reason... never knew why though. AAnd there is a scottish/irish culture in Mystara, near Redstone on the Isle of Dawn (at least, the names seem to suggest so, and that's what we placed in the Mystara Almanac AC 1014). >Michael Roy >mroy@cyberus.ca ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:59:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-18 14:17:09 EDT, Joe Duncan writes: ><< I thought the Mystaran theme was "Magic-Happy"... >> >Happy, happy, joy, joy >Happy, happy, joy... >Bruce Heard Aaaargh! not ren and Stimpy! They are not the theme of mystara! please no.. Im hiding under the carpet. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:00:25 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy In a message dated 97-04-19 04:59:45 EDT, Aron writes: << and don't forget the chaotic good red dragon, the asbestos dragon. >> LOL Aron! Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:32:25 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships >Dwarven ship doesn't fly, just go through rocks. However, both Elves and Halfling's flyship are quite poor when compared to human airship (small, can only fly for half of the day, and takes very long to build), probably because at the time when they are created, flying ships were supposed to be very rare. With airships became quite a bit more numerous in Mystara now, those demihuman ship could use some upgrade. I say they should be improved somehow, better speed, manuverability, maybe some special powers. They should most certainly have something that makes them exceptional... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:23:13 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler >>D'OH!!! In all my searching for the height above sea level of Glantri, I >>forgot to check GAZ10 for some indications!! Stupid, stupid, stupid.... >And you also forgot to check the PWA: Glantri City 4,800' Also, PC4 says that Malinbois, at the top end of the open valleys of Glantri, is 5,000'. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:48:54 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos Whoops! I was just reading what I wrote, and I noticed that I forgot physical descriptions for the personalities section. >General Nizar al Harb: (F8, AL: LN) Commander of The Fury of the West and... About 35 years old. He has black hair, a moustache, brown eyes, and dusky skin. He's about 5'10", 165 lb. >Captain Suleiman ibn Subay (F6, AL:LE) Administrative Captain... Suleiman is in his mid-thirties. He is overweight and shaves his head completely. His skin is remarkably pale for one of Tel-Akbiri descent. NNatasha Tibonerial: (MU6, AL:CN) Magist of the Fury of the West. Natasha... She is about 30 years old. She is 5'9", 145 lb. Long, beautiful brown hair, brown eyes. Though she is physically fit, she is not particularly attractive: her nose is large, her eyes are small, and her face just looks somewhat strange. She speaks with a slight lisp, although she is able to overcome it with concentration. These factors help make her seem harmless and slightly hapless. >Mahmud Buqumius: (C6, AL LN) Mahmud is the chief chaplain of the Fury of... Usually found in comfortable priestly robes, although he occasionally wears armor for adventuring. He is about 5'6", 150 lb. His hair is black, his eyes are brown, and he has a distictively Alasiyani look about him. He cuts his hair very short and sometimes smears it with oil to look more fashionable. He also walks with a slight limp, and is more than happy to tell the long story of how he received his injury years ago in an effort to spread the Good Word of the Church of Karameikos into the wilderness and has never fully recovered. >Achelos: (?, Al: N) Of course, there is currently a Traladaran leader who... None but loyal Traladarans know his (or perhaps even her) identity. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:20:04 +0200 From: Zoltar Subject: [Mystara] Hollow World I need informations about Hollow World, I have some ideas to recycle tis world for my campaign. 1) Is there sun on HW? 2) Are there particular ECO system on HW? If U can send me a VERY DETAILED informations about geography and eco system Privately, I will be happy to greet U. Con immutata stima With unchanged respect Zoltar. O(+> "May U Live 2 See the Dawn." <-I-O Visit my Italian Home Page! - - L'Antro di Zoltar - http://www.lognet.it/maganet/div/zoltar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:33:56 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler At 23.29 18/04/97 -0700, Patrick wrote: >><< (nevada=silver: coincidence?) >> >>In what language is this? >Spanish. >Silver is a common translation of nevada, although it more accurately means silver-colored. Very frequently, as in the Sierra Nevada, this means snow-covered. I'm not spanish and I don't speak spanish, so I may be totally wrong, but doesn't "nevada" means "snow covered" in Spanish? The spanish word for "silver" is "plata" IIRC. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #49 **************************** Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 05:40:42 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #50 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 0d4d116ef642570ed51be58008f497c6 mystara-digest Sunday, April 20 1997 Volume 02 : Number 050 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:44:30 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World Ciao, in qualità di membro "anziano" della piccola comunità italiana sulla Mystara mailing list ti ḍ il benvenuto :) Adesso devo andare quindi non posso fornirti notizie sull'HW (Hollow World) e peraltro non è neanche che lo conosca troppo bene. Io sono esperto sopratutto di Shadow Elves, comunque se vuoi discutere di qualunque cosa su Mystara scrivimi. PS: se vuoi posso darti gli indirizzi degli altri italiani (4 o 5) PPS: di dove sei? Ciao ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:21:32 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Theme On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 Shin Chyang Yu wrote: TTo me, Mystara, more than other game world, allows the growth of player characters. They can start out as unknown commoners to became major powers in the mortal world to finally became part of the pantheon of the world. This is also shown in NPCs such as Thincol, from gladator to emperor, several Glantri princes who start out as minor nobles. Don't know whether that consider as a "theme" or not. Also, Mystara is more of a high fantasy than other world. Magic is more powerful, character is more powerful, creatures is more powerful, everything is just a bit grander and more colorful when compared to other worlds. Another really great description of Mystara's theme. I agree completely! >>>By the old products, it seems that Mystara was originally intended to be a Law vs. Chaos setting. Good and Evil were ignored in OD&D alignment systems. >I personally never really liked that. To me it seems like they use law and chaos as "cooler" way of saying good and evil when D&D is simplfied to a three alignment system. In the earlier products, lawful is basiclly good, and chaoic is same as evil. But when Mystara switch to AD&D system, the somewhat awkard explaintion (IMO) was used. Yeah, I agree here too. I always got the impression in D&D that lawful- neutral-chaotic was basically meant to mean good-neutral-evil. The description given in the Rules Cyclopedia is defined through degrees of selfishness - from utterly selfish to very considerate and caring for all. What is that if not good and evil? AD&D players should keep this in mind when converting D&D stuff. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:13:53 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 David Melik wrote: [[I cut some stuff] [So did I] >Still, they probably shouldn't be able to totally screw it up, since it is a relic after all. Naturally. That's not to say that some over-enthusiastic young engineer couldn't throw a big spanner in the works once in a while, though. But it since it's an Immortal avatar, it has certain powers of growth and repair, most likely. So it probably could fix itself enough for it to keep on chugging away. :-) >I like this idea a lot. Thanks. >It just seems like an obvious relic for gnomes. It sounds better than that time-travelling one, so..., well, restricted. But remember that you can still have the time-travelling one, just make it a unique relic for that one clan (like the Frond and the Carven Oak for Minrothad elves). >Gnomes might get bored of it soon and want to do stuff with other inventions. Maybe they didn't have an artifact like the one you described, because IIRC, if "tinkering" gnomes weren't in folklore, they first appeared in Dragonlance, and maybe they wanted to preserve the diversity between worlds. Oh well, who cares. Hmm. Well, remember that in Mystara gnomes are the creation of an Immortal, based upon dwarves somewhat but with a greater (and quirkier) sense of humour and an insatiable curiosity. Also, the clan relic is always an "invention in the making", so the gnomes would never get bored with tweaking, fiddling and trying to find out exactly what it is that it *does*! >Invention-making gnomes are another of those "staples" of fantasy which I happen to like, because stuff like that is a big part of what makes it fantasy. I agree. Fantasy needs mad gnomish inventors like mad gnomish inventors need gremlins. (Or not, as the case may be.) >Ok, I've some ideas for this invention. I wonder what it should be called. Maybe each clan should have a name for their own like, "The Sacred Supreme Super-Frangleblanzer Archdoodad Imagination Machine." That's a good idea. Each machine will have a different name, and the names will never be descriptive! :-) >These could produce >Oil of Starlight, since the other relics produce oils of darkness, sunlight, and moonlight. Starlight seems right for gnomes, coming from something unknown that would likely fascinate and inspire them. I wonder what it could do... make another type of ship, or perhaps it could do something to help their inventions travel better. Hmmm... I never really liked the "oil of ..." stuff. Maybe it would be more fitting if the exact purpose was specialised to that particular relic, so they all do slightly different things. Hence, the attachments and alterations the gnomes continually make to it. The more successful alterations will achieve some sort of purpose, maybe helping to create some form of invention (keeping with the demihuman relics, perhaps some form of transport). But starlight does sort of suit gnomes, I agree. In fact I can just see it now - the Gnomish Space Rocket. ;-) >All other relics aid in a little spellcasting, so perhaps gnomish ones should too. Yep. >I think it could also be used to construct magical and high quality invention parts. Yes, I agree. Mostly small things, perhaps it could be used to make the equivalent of magical skyhooks (see PC2) every so many years. It could help with the construction of huge magical items, perhaps allowing gnomes access to these when they would usually not be allowed. In fact maybe it would be good to say that this is true of all demihuman relics. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:29:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy << and don't forget the chaotic good red dragon, the asbestos dragon. >> Yeah, the dragon's breath creates a kind of black goop (origin of black puddings?) inside the lungs of its enemies, which slowly kills them :) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:15:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos Great Work! I'll comment more on it later. Has anyone developed chardastes more? I know he is an immortal of healing and that his symbol is the bell, but thats about it really. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:13:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-19 04:59:45 EDT, Aron writes: ><< and don't forget the chaotic good red dragon, the asbestos dragon. >> LOL Aron! >Bruce Heard Are you by any chance addicted to IRC Bruce? :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:12:00 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy At 11:00 AM 4/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-19 04:59:45 EDT, Aron writes: ><< and don't forget the chaotic good red dragon, the asbestos dragon. >> >LOL Aron! >Bruce Heard sorry, but I don't know what "LOL" means... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:12:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >>Which poses a question: Now that the Nucleus drains power from Entropy, how does the Immortal-making spell from Glantri Gazetteer work? Does it still make the caster an Energy immortal, or what? AActually, G:KoM ignores WotI and states that the artifact still drains from the sphere of Energy, thereby granting immortality in that sphere. I believe that is an error in G:KoM. Now I believe that this has been discussed before on the list but I dont recall any conclusions. I think the Radience should drain entrophy now, being a major blow to the sphere of Entrophy. I have earlier speculating on the effects of draining entrophy from the world. What are the manifestations of entrophy in the world. Demons and Undead will have a hard time. As someone once pointed out, the change may have had an effect on the relationship between entrophy and energy. I the Sphere of Energy about to be tainted? Will this result in wild magic or magic causing insanity. Spells miscast might create horrible effects. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:06:23 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Airships On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, David Melik wrote: >In AC11: Book of Wondrous Inventions, I noticed a Darokinian device called Volospin's Dragonfly. Even though it came out before the Princess Ark series or CoM, it is essentially an airship. There was also one or two others in there, and I thought they should be given CoM stats (in addition to their original ones.) Actually, the Dragonfly is a Glantrian invention, named after its creator, Prince Volospin Aendyr, an Alphatian Air-Mage. >Someone mentioned that the only major airships around the known world are the Heldann Warbirds, which are powered by an immortal artifact, and perhaps implied there wasn't really enough magic to make airships elsewhere in the KW. I disagree. Yes, the Heldann ships are *powered* by an artifact, but it takes a lot of other magic to *construct* them. Not necessarily. The Heldannic Warbirds are made of mundane constructions, not magical construction. A temple to Vanya is installed in them, along with a receptacle that recieves power from her artifact, thus allowing it to fly. One reason why the Heldanners have so much power, and so many airships, is because of this; they don't have to waste a lot of energy and time on magical constructions. The only other nation to have any sort of air army in the Known World (ie, lands west of the Isle of Dawn, and east of Sind), is Thyatis. They have (maybe) some airships, and they have a number of mounted flying troops. There is one known 'airship' in the Northern Reaches (Oberack's flying dragon thingy), a few in Glantri (the dragonflies, which need magical construction as well as magical fuel), and the Elven lightships. That is it, so far. >So Glantri shouldn't have airships then, when the Heldann Freeholds do? Even Ylaruam has an airship. What airship does Ylaruam have? Sind has one (now), a flying barge, but I don't recall that Ylaruam has any. Again, Glantri does (and could) but the simple fact is that, outside of Heldann and Alphatia, no one nation has ever devoted the time and resources to creating an airship army, so they just aren't going to show up in large numbers anywhere else. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:39:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Denagoth and Idris On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >Hmm. Werewolves aren't exactly Scottish - more English Midlands and Yorkshire Dales, or the Moors. There were wolves in Scotland, though, weren't there? At least at some point? I know the Irish Wolfhounds drove the wolves out of Ireland... Maybe there are Lupins in the Redstone area of the Isle of Dawn? (IIRC, that's the one that most closely corresponds to an Ireland area). They could be at odds with the werewolves down south in Furmenglaive... >However, being ruled by a large Empire strikes pretty close to home (not that I'm a nationalist - I'm talking about Scottish history). Fighting for independence would be a very Scottish way of defining the nation. I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to have werewolves in there too, though. The area ruled by Uthgaard McRhoomag is more or less independent now, isn't it? With loose ties to Thyatis, anyway? Of course, he could decide to become more agressive, and annex some more lands on the IoD... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:32:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman religion and Gnomish clan relics Thorfinn Tait pontificated: >>These could produce >>Oil of Starlight, since the other relics produce oils of darkness, sunlight, and moonlight. Starlight seems right for gnomes, coming from something unknown that would likely fascinate and inspire them. I wonder what it could do... make another type of ship, or perhaps it could do something to help their inventions travel better. >Hmmm... I never really liked the "oil of ..." stuff. Maybe it would be more fitting if the exact purpose was specialised to that particular relic, so they all do slightly different things. Hence, the attachments and alterations the gnomes continually make to it. The more successful alterations will achieve some sort of purpose, maybe helping to create some form of invention (keeping with the demihuman relics, perhaps some form of transport). How about Oil of Flashlight. A mechanical/magical lighting device is first made. Then the relic collects the essence of that light, which has the duel properties of magic and technology. The oil is used like lubricant on the gnomish inventions and gives them special properties, even though the gnomes probably have no idea exactly how and why the oil works, they put it on random places of their most important works to improve it. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:22:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>I completely agree with you on the point as to what will be the "true Mystara" problem. In fact, that was a problem I myself had to deal with with for the entire PWA series. IMC, the players played with the Doomsday Device and placed the tiny red dot over Thyatis. I totally agree with this. IMC, ALphatia still exists, albeit minus a 'nuked' Sundsvall, and is torn by civil war. Alfheim is in the midst of one as well, as the SE fight the surface elves for control of the land. Both create quite a different atmosphere than that provided in any of the PWAs or other almanacs, but that doesn't invalidate their usage. I still make use of many (if not most) of the ideas contained within, though some adaptation may be required. >>As such, the Mystaran Almanac is but a POSSIBLE version of the future (or, for some campaigns, the past...), and we'll probably continue making more for those who like THAT PARTICULAR alternate future. Nowhere do I claim that what was written IS THE LAW OF MYSTARA!!! If TSR/WotC come out with something else, I'll still be there in line to buy their product, regardless if it comes into conflict with my campaign. Why not? I have so far, and many of their products don't go into my campaigns... AS IS! The trick is to modify them to fit... Mystara is as much the DM's world as it is TSRs. Again, agreed. Most of what we have come up with, we, as those who have been keeping the Mystara flame alive, have all come up with together, and based on what has come before- ie, the other almanacs. Though things might have just been suggestions before (raising of Aengmor, etc), and may not have necessarily been thought to happen in such a manner, they are all ideas we have come up with comunally, and worked into the Mystaran future as already has been 'designed.' Obviously, once PCs begin to interact, things are going to change, and what ends up existing is not necessarily going to fit what we come up with or what TSR comes up with. That's the fun of roleplaying. The almanacs just serve as, if you will, a potpourri of possible ideas; things a DM can pick and choose to use as he pleases. Some of these have more wide ranging consequences than others, and seem to be more 'definite' but that isn't at all the case. Everything is flexible, and the fun is using what you want, and allowing the consequences that arise in your games to dictate the course of the future of your world. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:43:20 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dragons (was From Micheal Roy) On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins wrote: >I guess that one question is with me, as the house physicist. You could try using the particles that intermediate each force, so you'd have graviton, photon (eletromagnetic), gluon (strong) and ... Well, then it gets complicated. Weak force is mediated by 3 particles with no good names, W+, W- and Z0. Maybe zoww? Come to think of it, I think I did call it a Radiation or Radioactive Dragon. And as one person suggested, the Spell Dragon was also known as a Dweomer Dragon. I don't know how well these would work on Mystara, though, as magic is probably most strongly related to energy, and doesn't thus have its own position in the UFT. >Your gravity dragon could use the suggestions from other people in the list, as well as others. Reverse gravity could be devastating in open spaces or his breath could be a tremendously strong gravitational field, with tide effects capable of ripping one apart (translated into the apropriate damage, of course). Interesting. IDate: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 05:40:42 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #50 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 0d4d116ef642570ed51be58008f497c6 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:54:44 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >sorry, but I don't know what "LOL" means... Laughing out loud. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:32:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Ungolwaith This is a continuation of my last post. Ungolwaith is the name the elves of Wendar gave to the sand folk. Ungolwaith Climate/Terrain: Dry deserts/badlands - specifically the Adri Varma Plateau Frequency: Rare Organization: Tribal Activity Cycle: Any Diet: Minerals Intelligence: Average (8-10) Alignment: Any Lawful No. Appearing: 2-12 (10-60 member in a tribe) Armor Class: 3-7 (see below) Movement: 12 Hit Dice: 1-9 Thac0: 19 No. of Attacks: Up to four (but usually 2) Damage/Attack: By weapon (+2 due to their great strength) Special Attacks: None Special Defences: See below Magic Resistance: None Size: M (6' average) Morale: Elite (13-14) XP Value: 275 Ungolwaith (sand folk) are a silicon-based, humanoid species. In their youth, their thick, leathery skin is smooth and green, but it darkens to slate gray (or even black) with age. As they age, glandular secretions cause their hides to gradually become encrusted with hard silicon crystals. Young Ungolwaith have an AC of 7. Middle-aged Ungolwaith have ACs of 5 or 6. Elders most often have an AC of 4, and truly ancient Ungolwaith may have an AC of 3. When full grown, they average six feet tall. All have four arms (two sets, one above the other on the torso), and have no hair or an external nose. Each hand and foot has four digits - two "fingers" and two "thumbs." Combat: Ungolwaith are extremely strong, and inflict extra 2 points of damage with any weapon they use. During melee, each Ungolwaith usually attacks twice, once with his upper arms and once with his lower arms. Commonly, Ungolwaith carry large bastard swords. The war chief carries a ceremonial glaive, though he may use other weapons in actual combat. Ungolwaith have a special affinity for the desert. They can't be surprised in desert country, and they cunning ambushes can be detected only by magical means. Habitat/Society: All Ungolwaith, regardless of current sex, are warriors and are governed by a strict code of tribal honor that places a premium on martial combat. For more information, see my previous post. Ecology: The biology of the Ungolwaith is by far the strangest yet seen. All are alternately male or female, with the onset of extremem summer heat triggering a change of sex. This change occurs in all Ungolwaith except for pregnant females. Being a silicon-based lifeform, the Ungolwaith ingest a type of gruel made of sand and other minerals. This gruel is poisonous to almost all carbon-based lifeforms. The average lifespan for an Ungolwaith is about 250 years, after which the body quickly decomposes (a matter of minutes) into its base materials. - ----- If any interest is shown, I will try to post info on making PCs (classes, kits, ability scores, etc.) It might take awhile as I only had one experience in making such a PC. Gotta go through all my notes and memories to see what exactly we did. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:31:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Sand Folk Anyone remember the sand folk from DA3 City of the Gods? One of my PCs drew a picture (he's a rather good artist) of a four-armed humanoid and asked if he could make a character like that. We set down some basics for the race and where they came from. Then I was looking back through my old modules and came across the sand folk. I was amazed to find the similarities between what we had come up with and what was written (btw: the PC had never heard of the sand folk before). So with DA3 as our background we developed the history of the sand folk from the time of the Blackmoor explosion to AC 1000. I haven't had time to work out how the WoI would affect them, but here is what we came up with. Any comments would be appreciated. :) Area Name: Adri Varma Plateau Continent: Brun Location: N of Sind; NW of Glantri; W of Wendar Climate: Dry Desert Terrain: Badlands Inhabitants: Sand folk (Ungolwaith) Population: 2,000 (10% civilized, 80% borderlands, 10% wilderness) Technological Level: Advanced Stone Age Cultural Type: Sedentary Social Structure: Tribe Government: Tribal Elders and War Chief Language: The Talk and Elvish Resources and Products: Minerals and abundant desert wildlife Imports: Weapons Exports: Salt and arts Currency: None Taxes: None Social Customs: Tending to be cliff-dwelling folk, they are organized into tribes based on blood ties. All are warriors and are governed by a strict code of tribal honor that places a premium on martial conduct. They domesticate camarillas (a 12-foot long, six-legged, desert-dwelling lizard-like carnivore) and blink dogs. Bastard swords (made by the elves of Wendar) are their weapon of preference. They honor the Immortal Ixion. Laws: Tribes are governed by a council of elders who administer justice and choose a war chief who serves for life. The only penalty the council recognizes is decaptation. If an act doesn't deserve decaptation, it isn't a crime. The accused has the right to confront his accuser. If elders can't decide, a trial by combat (always to the death) may be called for. History: They know little of their own history. They are the dwindling descendants of a pre-Blackmoor race. Back then, they were nomadic, and traded freely with (and freely stole from) the Blackmoor peoples, until they became nothing more than high-tech raiders. Although they weren't totally destroyed by the Great Rain of Fire, they lost their access to technology and reverted back to a stone age culture from which they never recovered. Remnants of the race wandered the empty lands until they came across, and were befriended by, elves living in a stretch of high mountain forests. They stayed near the elves and began to live in a series of caves and tunnels nearby. The cold temperature of the area and the elven customs stabilized their biological changes (see my next post for more info on this), and they slowly forgot how it used to be - but they still felt the power of the sun's rays. When the elves started dying from some strange disease (caused by the Great Rain of Fire), they join the sand folk, who didn't seem to be affected by the disease, in their caves. As more elves died, they went further and further underground. The sand folk declined to follow, for they didn't want to leave the sun - which had become an important symbol in their mysticism, although they did not remember why. Eventually the elves completely disappeared - either dead or lost in the deep caverns. With their friends gone and increasing orc attacks from the south, the sand folk slowly dwindled in numbers. What was worse, births became very rare - their stangnant biology was finally having an effect, though they thought it had something to do with the strange elf disease. In an attempt to flee the disease, they travelled en masse - west across the glacier-capped mountains. On the other side they found a barren, but snow-free land. Although it was still cold there, no clouds obscured the sun. They settled in the cliffs and rock formations. It was a harsh time. Survival was in doubt as they struggled to relearn their lost skills. Then an amazing thing occurred. After many generations, the weather became warm enough to trigger their biological change. It caused much chaos, for the change was only a myth of the past. The myth, however, was also associated with a great legendary power (which _was_ a myth based on the memory of the Blackmoor technology they once had, and to which they no longer had access to). They began to believe they were returning to an age of strength. Also at this time, an abundance of births occurred, which caused a problem of its own - overpopulation. They split into various tribes and spread out. That was nine generations ago. They have since come into contact with Wendar (who found it astounding that they had elven elements in their Talk, and who gave them the new name of "Ungolwaith" or "Spiderfolk" due to their four arms), Sind, and Glantri (who they keep far away from, lest they become the subjects of magical experiments). Births are not as common as that first year after the Restoration of Life - as they like to call it - nor are they as rare as before then. Not every summer is hot enough to cause a Change, but it is an occasion for great ceremonies dedicated to the sun. They keep the Change as much of a secret as they can from other folk, as it is deeply personal and has great spiritual significance. Despite the belief that they will become powerful soon, they seem to have a complete lack of ability to progress beyond their advanced stone age technology. This is due to the Immortal Ixion (their Sun-Prince) who keeps a very close eye on them and suppresses the racial memory of the Blackmoor technology they nearly destroyed the world. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:22:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres In a message dated 97-04-19 17:47:06 EDT, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: << As someone once pointed out, the change may have had an effect on the relationship between entrophy and energy. I the Sphere of Energy about to be tainted? Will this result in wild magic or magic causing insanity. Spells miscast might create horrible effects. >> Yes! Yes! I like the way that you are thinking there. You have provided DMs of Mystara campaigns a reason to introduce wild magic -- or, to be more sinister, defilers (as per Dark Sun). I am not by any means suggesting that Mystara should evolve into a world like Athas -- but trying to stop the first high level defiler from evolving into a dragon and/or achieving immortality in the Sphere of Entropy would make a very interesting campaign goal. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:22:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) In a message dated 97-04-18 17:11:11 EDT, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << Hold on - I thought Ixion and Rad were both Neutral (OD&D) Immortals. Surely they would transfer to AD&D Alignments as either Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Good or True Neutral? Rad certainly is NOT Lawful (in relation to the Immortals' laws, at any rate), and Ixion is not, IMO, Good - he is Neutral. >> Rad is listed as Lawful -- that should probably should be interpreted as Lawful Neutral, since he seems benevolent and yet endorses the less-than-good magocracy of Glantri. Ixion is Neutral -- it seems that I was influenced by his depiction as "Tubak" among the Ethengars. But It does seem to me that any Immortal who is revered for bringing order should be Lawful in alignment. But the point I meant to make is that the conflict between Rad and Ixion was not over alignment, sphere, or any other such abstract concepts -- it was over the very practical issue of a certain artifact and its usage. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:22:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World In a message dated 97-04-19 14:06:33 EDT, zoltar@maganet.lognet.it (Zoltar) writes: << 1) Is there sun on HW? 2) Are there particular ECO system on HW? >> Question (2) is easy -- the answer is NO. The climate, flora, and fauna of the Hollow World are as diverse as that of the surface world -- perhaps more so. However, the Spell of Preservation prevents cultures from changing too much and also limits many magic spells. As for the sun -- yes, it is a glowing red gate to the Plane of Fire (I think) that is located in the exact center of the Hollow World and thus is always directly overhead for its inhabitants. As a result, the Hollow World has no day or night - -- a very tough thing for most outsiders to get used to. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:22:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy I quite understand the point about "reality shifts" -- in my campaign, a number of NPCs who were still alive according to WotI and the PWAs were killed off ca. AC 1001, and their successors would not quite have been up to filling their later roles. Conversely, some events would have been nearly impossible to pull off -- as one example, the player characters included a relative of Prince Jaggar who would have made it very difficult for Synn to seduce him as she did, had my campaign continued into the post-Wrath era. Most likely, the party would have suffered the same fate that Haldemar did when he ran afoul of Synn -- then I would have been off in an uncharted future once again. But I suspect that any campaign begins to branch off from "canon" once the player characters gain any degree of influence -- events simply will not follow the same course. There is also the "unpublished" factor -- if, for example, a DM began a campaign in AC 1011 starting from "canon" as established by the first PWA, he would not have had any later PWAs to work with -- and by the time they came out, he would find that his version had diverged to some extent. My response would be to simply go with your own version -- there may be some sort of "historical inertia" that tends to bring things back to what they "should be", but some changes must stay, if only as evidence that the player characters actually made their mark on the world. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:08:24 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Henri in Ravenloft??? Some of y'all seem surprised that Henri was wished back to life by Synn. The method, IMHO, that Henri was brougt back don't matter. Those damn d'Ambrevilles are nigh impossible to permanently kill off!!! Between the original Castle Amber module, and the newer Mark of Amber module, and all the PWA events . . . has any family member been permanently axed since they crossed over to Mystara from Laterre?? Henri's still alive, and if he's killed again . . . he'll come back again. Hell, Etienne was taken from Mystara by an Old One, and he's back!!! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:35:29 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos In a message dated 97-04-19 17:46:14 EDT, Haarvard writes: << Great Work! I'll comment more on it later. Has anyone developed chardastes more? I know he is an immortal of healing and that his symbol is the bell, but thats about it really. >> Officially, that's about all the info there is. The most detailed info on Chardastes is in B1-9 In Search of Adventure (it ain't much). Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 23:07:57 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Flails Hey guys, I've a question, and I'm wondering if anyone has dealt with it before. In module X13, flails are listed as weapons of some of the evil thugs the PCs must defeat. They are listed as doing 1d6+1 points of damage, but no information in the module (not even at the end, where they introduce new monsters, etc) is given as to their weight, or cost. Has anyone worked this out already? I would appreciate it if this information could be shared. Also, has anyone worked out how they would develop according to weapon mastery rules? Thanks, Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:24:19 -0500 From: "Tom Wagner" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Flails According to the Players Handbook, the footman's flail does 1d6+1 pts of damage or 2d4 vs larger than man size. cost is 15 gp, weight is 15 lbs. - ---------- From: Geoff Gander To: mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] Flails Date: Saturday, April 19, 1997 10:07 PM Hey guys, I've a question, and I'm wondering if anyone has dealt with it before. In module X13, flails are listed as weapons of some of the evil thugs the PCs must defeat. They are listed as doing 1d6+1 points of damage, but no information in the module (not even at the end, where they introduce new monsters, etc) is given as to their weight, or cost. Has anyone worked this out already? I would appreciate it if this information could be shared. Also, has anyone worked out how they would develop according to weapon mastery rules? Thanks, Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 09:23:57 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] Hollow World I have. See my home page for some modules that I have written to fit in with the WotI campaign my PC's are in. The HW setting is a lot of fun. and I intend to take the party back there somehow ;-) Hope you aren't reading this Rob!! Alan Jones http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306 - ---------- From: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com on behalf of Thorfinn Tait Sent: 15 April 1997 23:30 To: Mystara Mailing List Subject: [Mystara] Hollow World Is there anyone on the list who is currently (or has previously been) adventuring or DMing in the Hollow World? I'm about to start a HW-based campaign, and I was wondering if anyone had any tips or material of their own making to offer as advice? Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 06:26:02 -0400 From: esp109@psu.edu (Eduardo Polanco) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler At 09:33 PM 4/19/97 +0200, mystara-l@lists.io.com wrote: AAt 23.29 18/04/97 -0700, Patrick wrote: <<<<< (nevada=silver: coincidence?) >> >>>In what language is this? >>Spanish. >>Silver is a common translation of nevada, although it more accurately means silver-colored. Very frequently, as in the Sierra Nevada, this means snow-covered. >I'm not spanish and I don't speak spanish, so I may be totally wrong, but doesn't "nevada" means "snow covered" in Spanish? The spanish word for "silver" is "plata" IIRC. I do speak Spanish and I've never heard nevada translated as silver-colored. I'm not saying it can't be. I'm only saying that I don't think that it's a common translation. The most common use for nevada is as a noun to refer to snowfall or a snowstorm. Ed Polanco esp109@psu.edu - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "The defining, perhaps final, moment is close. Everyone, EVERYONE, in this life knows when the moment is before them. To turn away is simple; to ignore it assures survival. But it is an insult to life, because there can be no redemption -- no second chance." -Lt. Col. T. C. McQueen ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #50 ****************************