Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:53:48 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #51 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: dd55ec2307a4a34fd6ca1942c07dcd1b mystara-digest Monday, April 21 1997 Volume 02 : Number 051 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:13:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 Delarius (BZuber5988@aol.com) wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-19 17:46:14 EDT, Haarvard writes: ><< Great Work! I'll comment more on it later. Has anyone developed chardastes mmore? I know he is an immortal of healing and that his symbol is the bell, but thats about it really. >> >Officially, that's about all the info there is. The most detailed info on Chardastes is in B1-9 In Search of Adventure (it ain't much). Does anyone know which of the B's this info originally was published in? (if any) Someone claimed that Chardastes was part of the Church of Karameikos according to the B1-9 collection. Does it give any explaination for why the Church of Karameikos would worship a Traldaran hero? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:22:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-19 17:47:06 EDT, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: ><< As someone once pointed out, the change may have had an effect on the rrelationship between entrophy and energy. I the Sphere of Energy about to be tainted? Will this result in wild magic or magic causing insanity. Spells miscast might create horrible effects. >> >Yes! Yes! I like the way that you are thinking there. You have provided DMs of Mystara campaigns a reason to introduce wild magic -- or, to be more sinister, defilers (as per Dark Sun). I am not by any means suggesting that Mystara should evolve into a world like Athas -- but trying to stop the first high >level defiler from evolving into a dragon and/or achieving immortality in the Sphere of Entropy would make a very interesting campaign goal. It doesnt seem likely that they would evolve into dragons since dragons are not linked to Entrophy(except night dragons). I have limited knowledge of the Athas setting but from what I understand the defilers drain life from nature itself. This would not be the basis of magic on mystara. However if Magic is becoming more chaotic the chance of miscasting spells will increase(There are no rules for miscasting spells in D&D but we can make some up) Draining nature could be the effect of such miscasts. Also I like the call of chtulhu variant of magic causing insanity. If magic is becomeing more hideous, it could have such effects... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:36:45 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] Flails >I've a question, and I'm wondering if anyone has dealt with it before. In module X13, flails are listed as weapons of some of the evil thugs the PCs must defeat. They are listed as doing 1d6+1 points of damage, but no information in the module (not even at the end, where they introduce new monsters, etc) is given as to their weight, or cost. Has anyone worked this out already? I would appreciate it if this information could be shared. Also, has anyone worked out how they would develop according to weapon mastery rules? Based on the inclusion of flails and the stats of the NPC opponents (some fighters with high Con have hp totals impossible in OD&D) it is my belief that X11/X13 were designed as AD&D modules and a sloppy conversion (what a surprise !) was done when the decision was made to publish them for the OD&D setting. The stories in both are so good that I used them IMC, tying the Vestland stuff into long-running plots like WotI. IMC the party never returned to the Wendar/Denegoth region. Finally IMC, under the assumption that the flails were the result of a sloppy AD&D conversion, I simply changed them to normal OD&D maces. There is a reference to flails in the 1981 Expert Rules (Erol Otis cover) but no stats. Maybe someone else with an older book can tell us if they were ever defined in OD&D. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:19:57 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Flails On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 Tom Wagner wrote: AAccording to the Players Handbook, the footman's flail does 1d6+1 pts of damage or 2d4 vs larger than man size. cost is 15 gp, weight is 15 lbs. So in D&D terms it probably does 1d6+1 at Basic mastery, costs 15gp and weighs 150cn. I imagine it would have mastery similar to a mace. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:57:47 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ungolwaith On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 "S.B. Wilson" wrote: TThis is a continuation of my last post. Ungolwaith is the name the elves of Wendar gave to the sand folk. >----- >If any interest is shown, I will try to post info on making PCs (classes, kits, ability scores, etc.) It might take awhile as I only had one experience in making such a PC. Gotta go through all my notes and memories to see what exactly we did. :) That was very interesting. I always wondered what the deal was with the plateau "behind" Glantri, and this is a good idea for it. I'd be very interested in seeing the PC ideas. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:10:01 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler >>>><< (nevada=silver: coincidence?) >> >>>>In what language is this? >>>Spanish. >>>Silver is a common translation of nevada, although it more accurately means >>>silver-colored. Very frequently, as in the Sierra Nevada, this means snow-covered. >>I'm not spanish and I don't speak spanish, so I may be totally wrong, but >>doesn't "nevada" means "snow covered" in Spanish? The spanish word for "silver" is "plata" IIRC. >I do speak Spanish and I've never heard nevada translated as silver-colored. I'm not saying it can't be. I'm only saying that I don't >think that it's a common translation. The most common use for nevada is as >a noun to refer to snowfall or a snowstorm. I stand corrected. I have heard nevada translated as silver-colored, but most likely it was simply done for poetic effect. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:20:22 -0500 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] Flails >From Players Handbook edition 1 Flail, footman's Weight 150 cn. Length 4' space required to use 6' Speed factor 7 (equal to battleaxe so IMC it would lose initiative as we use OD&D rules for initiative) Damage 2-7 Hope this helps - -- "This could be heaven for everyone This world could be free, this world could be one." Heaven for everyone. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:27:39 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos: Chardastes >Does anyone know which of the B's this info originally was published in? (if any) Someone claimed that Chardastes was part of the Church of Karameikos according to the B1-9 collection. Does it give any explaination for why the Church of Karameikos would worship a Traldaran hero? The adventure "Elwyn's Sanctuary" was originally published in B9: . According to B1-9, Chardastes is a minor immortal of the Church of Karameikos, but he is very popular with the lower classes. Sometime before 700 A.C., according to legend, Chardastes appeared to a sick woman praying in a Traladaran shrine in Marilinev. He laid his hands on the woman, completely healed her, and told her that the people were following a false religion, and his was the only true religion. He left behind a magical platinum bell. When the Thyatians invaded, they incorporated worship of Chardastes into the Church of Karameikos. I know that my mini-setting seems to contradict this, but part of my idea was to make Western Karameikos into what the rest of the country was 50 years ago: a hotbed of racial tensions which errupt in violence. 50 years ago, Chardastes must still have been a primarily Traladaran immortal. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:41:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chardastes (was: Western Karameikos) >>Officially, that's about all the info there is. The most detailed info on Chardastes is in B1-9 In Search of Adventure (it ain't much). DDoes anyone know which of the B's this info originally was published in? B9, "Castle Caldwell", a collection of half a dozen short adventures. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:26:18 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] From Micheal Roy At 02:54 PM 4/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >>sorry, but I don't know what "LOL" means... >Laughing out loud. :) ah, thanks, that clears it up a bit. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu (I was afraid it was some sort of insult...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:31:43 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres At 07:22 PM 4/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-19 17:47:06 EDT, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: ><< As someone once pointed out, the change may have had an effect on the rrelationship between entrophy and energy. I the Sphere of Energy about to be tainted? Will this result in wild magic or magic causing insanity. Spells miscast might create horrible effects. >> >Yes! Yes! I like the way that you are thinking there. You have provided DMs of Mystara campaigns a reason to introduce wild magic -- or, to be more sinister, defilers (as per Dark Sun). I am not by any means suggesting that Mystara should evolve into a world like Athas -- but trying to stop the first high >level defiler from evolving into a dragon and/or achieving immortality in the Sphere of Entropy would make a very interesting campaign goal. whoa, even if defilers became common on Mystara, I don't think any would be set to become a dragon for many thousands of years. Heck, a suitable campaign might be just to wipe the evil mages off the face of the map, before they get a suitable foothold. Now that I think about it, that WOULD make a really cool long-term campaign. The PC's could destroy the main defiler school, but minor ones could come back and continuously harrass the PCs for many years to come. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:40:56 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres At 03:22 PM 4/20/97 +0200, you wrote: >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >>In a message dated 97-04-19 17:47:06 EDT, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: >><< As someone once pointed out, the change may have had an effect on the rrrelationship between entrophy and energy. I the Sphere of Energy about to be tainted? Will this result in wild magic or magic causing insanity. Spells miscast might create horrible effects. >> >>Yes! Yes! I like the way that you are thinking there. You have provided DMs of Mystara campaigns a reason to introduce wild magic -- or, to be more sinister, defilers (as per Dark Sun). I am not by any means suggesting that Mystara should evolve into a world like Athas -- but trying to stop the first high >>level defiler from evolving into a dragon and/or achieving immortality in the Sphere of Entropy would make a very interesting campaign goal. >It doesnt seem likely that they would evolve into dragons since dragons are not linked to Entrophy(except night dragons). Actually, on Athas the only dragons are the ones that evolved from high level defilers. The aren't seperated into colors or anything. In fact, there are only a hand-full left alive. >I have limited knowledge >of the Athas setting but from what I understand the defilers drain life from nature itself. This would not be the basis of magic on mystara. I always liked the way that Dark Sun presented magic. You are right, on Athas magic is visibly drained from the surrounding land. I think that this idea would work fine on Mystara--it just usually isn't noticed because there is just so much life energy on Mystara that the little bit drained wouldn't be missed. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:45:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] Flails >Finally IMC, under the assumption >that the flails were the result of a sloppy AD&D conversion, I simply changed them to normal OD&D maces. There is a reference to flails in the 1981 Expert Rules (Erol Otis cover) but no stats. Maybe someone else with an older book can tell us if they were ever defined in OD&D. Well, in the old basic rules (pre-boxed set, Erol Otus cover of dwarf and buxom lady fighting a dragon) that I have, there is no mention of flails. I have seen them mentioned in X4 I think or some other old module, but whatever module they were in I simply substituted maces as well. No need to create a whole new mastery table just because of an editor's error ;) The Reagan and Bush administrations borrowed more money than all the previous US administrations combined. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:07:03 +1000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Chardastes was (Re: Western Karameikos) >Great Work! I'll comment more on it later. Has anyone developed chardastes more? I know he is an immortal of healing and that his symbol is the bell, but thats about it really. >From my homepage which is based on numerous sources it says this about Chardastes. Chardastes Alignment True Neutral Year Immortality Achieved/Source 500 BC/WotI, 39 Reason Chardastes was a Traladaran which could indicate an age from about 500 BC or possibly as early as 800 BC. Since Petra was his sponsor it seems unlikely to be early on. Anytime after 500 BC would therefore be likely. Intrests Healing Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:13:51 +1000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Ilsundal's Migration Just a query about Ilsundal's Migration. From the Hollow World boxed set (and backed up in GAZ5 we have BC 2800 A separatist branch of the southern elves, led by Ilsundal the Wise, decides to abandon Blackmoor technology and return to the nature-oriented magic of their ancestors. They begin a long migration northward in the hope of finding the lost colony of elves that had settled near Blackmoor. (HW) Now what is the lost colony? It is most probably likely meant to have been the elves who are the precursors to the Shadow elves, but it could also have meant the Geffronell or the Aquarendi. It seems unlikely that Ilsundal would be too keen on finding the Blackmoor elves because they were the ones who brought technology back to Evergrun. Considering the path that Ilsundal's migration took, the fact that we're saying that the Geffronell left no forwarding address and more importantly the fact that the Evergrun/Grunland elves would have known of the disposition of the Aquarendi (they openly chose not to accept Blackmoor technology, a view held by Ilsundal). Therefore the initial part of Ilsundal's migration was to look for the Aquarendi and settle with them. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:00:51 +0000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Another elf migration question. Just a question BC 2300 By this time Ilsundal's expedition, after a long trek across western Davania, has crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortals' Arm, and headed east along the Savage Coast. [the second] expedition takes another route through the Addakian Sound meeting up with Ilsundal's migration. (CoM) IIRC CoM is the only place where it says that the two migrations meet. In HW it doesn't say either way but it does say that BC 2200 Some elves break off from Ilsundal's migration and eventually find their way to the frozen valleys of Glantri, where they settle. A few from (the second) migration also reach Glantri and settle among their cousins a little bit later. (HW) Which sort of implies that the two migrations didn't meet since elsewhere the indication is that the Glantri elves left the Ilsundal migration after the Ilsudal migration would have met up with (the second) migration. Also in GAZ5 although it also doesn't say anything explicitly the feel of what is said seems to imply that the two migrations did not meet. Apart from this why would everyone have forgotten the leader of the second migrations name (as said in CoM) if the migration had met up with Ilsundal's? Therefore my question is, is there any good reason to make the two migrations meet up? The reason why I am asking is because the second migration (according to some work that Marco Dalmonte and myself are still working on) is going to be part of the Wendar/Denagoth elf population, and it would probably be better if their migration didn't meet up with Ilsundal's. So basically is there any problem with saying that CoM got it wrong when it says the two migrations met up? Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:16:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Does anyone know which of the B's this info originally was published in? (if any) Someone claimed that Chardastes was part of the Church of Karameikos according to the B1-9 collection. Does it give any explaination for why the Church of Karameikos would worship a Traldaran hero? Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:53:48 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #51 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: dd55ec2307a4a34fd6ca1942c07dcd1b I think it's B9: Castle Caldwell and Beyond (I don't know if that's the right module #, but that's the name of the module). It's in one of the adventures, entitled "Elwyn's Sanctuary". Note that GAZ1 was not released at this time, and no info on the Church of Karameikos was available. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 22:29:30 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another elf migration question. stan writes: I have a feeling that I'm being baited into an old argument here, but what the heck, studying for physics is driving me nuts... >BC 2300 By this time Ilsundal's expedition, after a long trek across western DDavania, has crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortals' Arm, and headed east along the Savage Coast. [the second] expedition takes another route through the Addakian Sound meeting up with Ilsundal's migration. (CoM) >IIRC CoM is the only place where it says that the two migrations meet. In HW it doesn't say either way but it does say that >BC 2200 Some elves break off from Ilsundal's migration and eventually find ttheir way to the frozen valleys of Glantri, where they settle. A few from (the second) migration also reach Glantri and settle among their cousins a little bit later. (HW) >Apart from this why would everyone have forgotten the leader of the second migrations name (as said in CoM) if the migration had met up with Ilsundal's? Well, if the two groups hadn't met up, they most likely would not have forgotten the leader's name. However, if they did meet up then the greater of the two leaders is the one most likely to go down in history. The second leader's name being forgotten is supportive of the two groups meeting up, not the other way around. >Therefore my question is, is there any good reason to make the two migrations meet up? The reason why I am asking is because the second migration (according to some work that Marco Dalmonte and myself are still working on) is going to be part of the Wendar/Denagoth elf population, and it would probably be better if their migration didn't meet up with Ilsundal's. Well, having the two migrations not meet might be better for your personal purposes in your campaign, which is ok. But it seems that TSR added the bit about the two groups meeting as a way of tying up loose ends and "unifying" the Mystaran history. I've done an extensive history of the elves and it makes more sense for the two groups to have met, as it makes the history a little more seemless. I've also noticed that TSR has a habit of "updating" things in newer supplements in order to make up for mistakes or inconsistencies in their old material. I always like to stick close to the cannon material, and in light of this fact I tend to give a "heavier" weight to newer material than to old. >So basically is there any problem with saying that CoM got it wrong when it says the two migrations met up? I think that TSR deliberately intended the CoM to be the correct version, in order to make up for inconsistencies in the older material. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to assume that perhaps the whole of the second migration didn't continue with Ilsundal, if you really want to keep the older history. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:36:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] Flails On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Tom Wagner wrote: >According to the Players Handbook, the footman's flail does 1d6+1 pts of damage or 2d4 vs larger than man size. cost is 15 gp, weight is 15 lbs. I think that what he was looking for is statistics for the flail in OD&D terms, hence the reference to Weapon Mastery Rules. Thanks, Ryan >---------- >From: Geoff Gander To: mystara-l@io.com >Subject: [Mystara] Flails >Date: Saturday, April 19, 1997 10:07 PM >Hey guys, >I've a question, and I'm wondering if anyone has dealt with it before. In module X13, flails are listed as weapons of some of the evil thugs the PCs must defeat. They are listed as doing 1d6+1 points of damage, but no information in the module (not even at the end, where they introduce new monsters, etc) is given as to their weight, or cost. Has anyone worked this out already? I would appreciate it if this information could be shared. Also, has anyone worked out how they would develop according to weapon mastery rules? >Thanks, >Geoff >---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander >Political Science IV >Carleton University >General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca >---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:58:10 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Aleksei wrote: >Which poses a question: Now that the Nucleus drains power from Entropy, how does the Immortal-making spell from Glantri Gazetteer work? Does it still make the caster an Energy immortal, or what? There isnt any official info on this I believe. But here is the facts from My Campaing: The Nucleus does drain Entropy. And the immortals of entropy are furious. But at the moment they can do nothing about it. They are however studying the matter. And also studying the dissappearance of Rad, who they believe (rightly so) to be able to help them. Good enough for them, the draining is still weak enough to not cause them any seriours problems for a couple of years (10 they believe). Howewer, there has been some influence allready. The Nucleus is now doing Entrophic immortals. Also the spells boosted with Nucleus are influenced with entrophy, sometimes causing hideous sideeffects to both the caster and the target. Also the possibility to get the ghastly Sicknes of Radience seems to have increased, at least a bit. (This is ofcourse only speculation by the Brotherhood, there is no proof as to yet). in 1017 (IMC the war of Radience came 10 years late) the radience has made the first enthropic immortal allready. Prince Mcgregor, the Lich, became an immortal Arch-Lich of Mystara, 'Protector of his realm', and the New Woice of Rad in the Brotherhood. Well, anyway, he hasn't been too active, rather still staying in his castle and in his former suit. The immortalhood was for him more like an incurance, not much more. After all, he was allready 'immortal'. Still, lately he has became to think more and more as to how to use his new powers. As for other problems... The Immortal Patron of Witches, The Creator of the Eggy's and the Protector of Lunair, Immortal Alma has haft some problems too... When she has lately used the 'new' Nucleus, she has been stained by the entropic energies coming from the Nucleus. According to Her studyes, Her whole Immortal matrix has been changed by the use of rad, making Her partly an imortal of entrophy. Seems to Her, that if she uses the Nucleus enough, she may change wholly into a enthropic immortal... So this was all IMC Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:46:34 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: Mystaran Theme(was [Mystara] From Micheal Roy) On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >Rad is listed as Lawful -- that should probably should be interpreted as Lawful Neutral, since he seems benevolent and yet endorses the less-than-good magocracy of Glantri. Ixion is Neutral -- it seems that I was influenced by his depiction as "Tubak" among the Ethengars. But It does seem to me that any Immortal who is revered for bringing order should be Lawful in alignment. In Mark of Amber, Rad is listed as True Neutral, and I tend to agree (he isn't exactly Lawful IMO). Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:25:45 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres At 09.58 21/04/97 +0200, you wrote: >As for other problems... >The Immortal Patron of Witches, The Creator of the Eggy's and the Protector of Lunair, Immortal Alma has haft some problems too... When she has lately used the 'new' Nucleus, she has been stained by the entropic energies coming from the Nucleus. According to Her studyes, Her whole Immortal matrix has been changed by the use of rad, making Her partly an imortal of entrophy. Seems to Her, that if she uses the Nucleus enough, she may change wholly into a enthropic immortal... >Pasi Who the heck is this Alma? Does she figure in Glantri:KoM? Can u give me some info? Thanx! DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:59:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World I am also looking for any information about Hollow World. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Also I'm looking for some of the (insert word here for the books/settings of the different sections of HW). Thank you all! On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Zoltar wrote: >I need informations about Hollow World, I have some ideas to recycle tis world for my campaign. >1) Is there sun on HW? >2) Are there particular ECO system on HW? >If U can send me a VERY DETAILED informations about geography and eco system Privately, I will be happy to greet U. >Con immutata stima >With unchanged respect >Zoltar. >O(+> "May U Live 2 See the Dawn." <-I-O >Visit my Italian Home Page! >- L'Antro di Zoltar - >http://www.lognet.it/maganet/div/zoltar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:59:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World I am also looking for any information about Hollow World. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Also I'm looking for some of the (insert word here for the books/settings of the different sections of HW). Thank you all! On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Zoltar wrote: >I need informations about Hollow World, I have some ideas to recycle tis world for my campaign. >1) Is there sun on HW? >2) Are there particular ECO system on HW? >If U can send me a VERY DETAILED informations about geography and eco system Privately, I will be happy to greet U. >Con immutata stima >With unchanged respect >Zoltar. >O(+> "May U Live 2 See the Dawn." <-I-O >Visit my Italian Home Page! >- L'Antro di Zoltar - >http://www.lognet.it/maganet/div/zoltar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:43:06 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >>Which poses a question: Now that the Nucleus drains power from Entropy, how does the Immortal-making spell from Glantri Gazetteer work? Does it still make the caster an Energy immortal, or what? >The Nucleus does drain Entropy. And the immortals of entropy are furious. But at the moment they can do nothing about it. They are however studying the matter. And also studying the dissappearance of Rad, who they believe (rightly so) to be able to help them. Good enough for them, the draining is still weak enough to not cause them any seriours problems for a couple of years (10 they believe). >Howewer, there has been some influence allready. The Nucleus is now doing Entrophic immortals. Also the spells boosted with Nucleus are influenced with entrophy, sometimes causing hideous sideeffects to both the caster and the target. Also the possibility to get the ghastly Sicknes of Radience seems to have increased, at least a bit. (This is ofcourse only speculation by the Brotherhood, there is no proof as to yet). Here is how I see it - Nucleus use to drain power from the Sphere of Energy while allowing those who use it to make powerful magics and to become Immortals of Energy. Now that it drains from Entropy, wouldn't it allow powerful Entropy magic (defiler-ish?) and make Entropic Immortals while making the overall world less entropic? Since the opposite of entropy is order, maybe with use the Nucleus would cause Mystara to become more stagnant and less likely to change, similar to the hollow world. With excessive use, the Nucleus would take the concept of order too far and prevent individuals from operating with a free will - obliterating spontaneity and individual thought and action. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:07:02 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ungolwaith >>If any interest is shown, I will try to post info on making PCs (classes, kits, ability scores, etc.) It might take awhile as I only had one experience in making such a PC. Gotta go through all my notes and memories to see what exactly we did. :) >That was very interesting. I always wondered what the deal was with the plateau "behind" Glantri, and this is a good idea for it. I'd be very interested in seeing the PC ideas. After looking at my notes, I realize that we had made the character for OD&D. However, with some thought, reworking and using both the Complete Book of Humanoids and the Complete Barbarian's Handbook, I managed to come up with this: Ungolwaith Height (in inches) Weight (lbs) Starting Age 70+1D6 175+1D10 15+4D4 Ability Score Adjustment: The initial ability scores are modified by a +2 bonus to strength, and a -2 penalty to intelligence. Ability Score Range Ability Minimum Maximum Str 12 19 Dex 10 17 Con 12 18 Int 3 16 Wis 3 16 Cha 3 16 Class Restrictions Warrior Kit Source Max. Level Tribal Defender Humanoid 12 Desert Rider Barbarian 12 Wilderness Protector Humanoid 10 Priest Kit Shaman Humanoid 7 Flamespeaker Barbarian 7 Hit Dice: Player character ungolwaith recieve hit dice by class. Alignment: Any Lawful. Natural Armor Class: Age AC 0-39 7 40-74 6 75-111 5 112-149 4 150+ 3 Languages: The Talk (native), Elvish (Wendarian dialect) Role-Playing Suggestions: Not only are ungolwaith non-human, they are not even a carbon-based lifeform. Therefore, their thinking is a little more different. They used to be very self-important and hostile (see DA3), but the years have humbled them and now they are a very spiritual, yet still somewhat agressive, people. Special Advantages: 2 attacks per round; bonus nonweapon proficiency: desert survival; can make themselves undetected in a desert setting, able to hide with a 90% chance of success. Special Disadvantages: Cannot wear any armor better than AC 6 (most armor is camarilla hides worn by the younger members of the tribes); cannot eat the food of carbon-based lifeforms - therefore they must carry/prepare their own food taken from minerals in the ground (if preparing their own food, must have the cooking skill). Monsterous Traits: -2 penalty on reaction checks due to appearance. Common Weapon Proficiencies: Bastard sword, glaive, club, dagger, spear, axe, bola. Common Non-weapon Proficiencies: Riding (camarilla), mountaineering, cooking, hiding, armorer (crude), foraging, weapon improvisation, weaponsmithing (crude). Note: Most of the above skills were taking from the Complete Barbarian's Handbook. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 1997 15:27:25 GMT From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >I always liked the way that Dark Sun presented magic. You are right, on Athas magic is visibly drained from the surrounding land. I think that this idea would work fine on Mystara--it just usually isn't noticed because there is just so much life energy on Mystara that the little bit drained wouldn't be missed. I used a similar method IMC for post-wrath spellcasting. Magic was so altered by the effects of WotI that spellcasting splintered into various groups according to where they drew their power from (mentioned later). Another form of spellcasting was discovered in the years following WotI which was closer to the magics of Blackmoor than any other currently practiced form of spellcasting. It was based on the drawing of magical energy directly from the earth itself, wherein lay the scattered shards of Blackrock, (the magical rock formerly found only in Blackmoor but scattered across the globe durring the Great Rain of Fire), which proved to be a source of energy which replenished itself fairly quickly. (I used a combination of the Perserver rules from Spells & Magic with a little more spellcasting freedom [the mage does not forget his or her spells]) The Blackrock was a completely different link to the Sphere of Engergy (no connection to the Nucleus of the Spheres) and allowed spellcasting on the annual Day of No Magic. The other form discovered was the Perserver/Defiler method, with a few modifications. When perserver magic is used every living thing within a hundred mile radius is so slightly drained of energy that nothing is noticed. The Defiler method causes everything within one hundred yards to weaken noticably (plants barely wilt, animals feel a bit weak) but it does not raze the area and kill plants outright (it's closer to the perserver of Athas, but is still considered evil in the life-filled world of Mystara) More on this later.... Andrew McKinstry Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 1997 19:19:23 GMT From: Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu (Andrew McKinstry) Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Here is how I see it - Nucleus use to drain power from the Sphere of Energy while allowing those who use it to make powerful magics and to become Immortals of Energy. Now that it drains from Entropy, wouldn't it allow powerful Entropy magic (defiler-ish?) and make Entropic Immortals while making the overall world less entropic? Since the opposite of entropy is order, maybe with use the Nucleus would cause Mystara to become more stagnant and less likely to change, similar to the hollow world. With excessive use, the Nucleus would take the concept of order too far and prevent individuals from operating with a free will - obliterating spontaneity and individual thought and action. The chaos and individualistic elements seem to be more connected with the sphere of Energy IMHO. Entropy is more connected with death and decay, so I think that all creatures would start to experience longer lifespans on average, structures would be slower to crumble, mountains would not wear away as fast, memories would last longer, fires would not consume their fuel as fast, etc. Andrew McKinstry Andrew_McKinstry@westtown.edu ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #51 **************************** Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:09:23 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #52 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7e8bdb8ee0bd84d94e76a7a1b433aafa mystara-digest Wednesday, April 23 1997 Volume 02 : Number 052 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:36:44 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >The chaos and individualistic elements seem to be more connected with the sphere of Energy IMHO. Entropy is more connected with death and decay, so I think that all creatures would start to experience longer lifespans on average, structures would be slower to crumble, mountains would not wear away as fast, memories would last longer, fires would not consume their fuel as fast, etc. Good point. I think I like that better than what I came up with. I was just trying to think of how the switch from Energy to Entropy would affect the world. I still think it would create entropic Immortals. Also, for those of you with the High-Level Campaign DM Option book, look on page 54 at the ecological ratings. Perhaps with excessive use of the Nucleus, Mystara would begin to move to a higher rating on that chart. For those without the book let me give an example: a rating of 2 reads, "The ecology is wildly different from the base campaign in almost every way; the environment is deadly (poisonous, airless, acidic, etc.)..." A rating of 10-12 is standard campaign ecologies. A rating of 20 states that "the ecology is wildly different from the base campaign in almost every way, and the environment is completely favorable (eating, sleeping, and drinking unnecessary)... Needless to say, Mystara would have a LONG way to go to be pushed up to a rating of 20 - thousands of generations perhaps. But it still gives some good ideas for those that want to put this kind of idea into their campaigns. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:41:10 +0000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Another elf migration question. >I have a feeling that I'm being baited into an old argument here, but what the heck, studying for physics is driving me nuts... Nobody is being baited into nothing. >>Apart from this why would everyone have forgotten the leader of the second migrations name (as said in CoM) if the migration had met up with Ilsundal's? >Well, if the two groups hadn't met up, they most likely would not have forgotten the leader's name. However, if they did meet up then the greater of the two leaders is the one most likely to go down in history. The second leader's name being forgotten is supportive of the two groups meeting up, not the other way around. Given the elves long life spans IMHO it seems unlikely that they would just forget the name of the leader of the second migration. >>Therefore my question is, is there any good reason to make the two migrations meet up? The reason why I am asking is because the second migration (according to some work that Marco Dalmonte and myself are still working on) is going to be part of the Wendar/Denagoth elf population, and it would probably be better if their migration didn't meet up with Ilsundal's. >Well, having the two migrations not meet might be better for your personal purposes in your campaign, which is ok. Well your making an assumption there. Whatever I post to this list has nothing to do with my campaign. I'm just posting things which tell the best story or make the most sense for the world. >But it seems that TSR added >the bit about the two groups meeting as a way of tying up loose ends and "unifying" the Mystaran history. I've done an extensive history of the elves and it makes more sense for the two groups to have met, as it makes the history a little more seemless. How so? >I've also noticed that TSR has a habit >of "updating" things in newer supplements in order to make up for mistakes or inconsistencies in their old material. That argument is not always correct. Writing to Bruce Heard about the Blackmoor problem he said that the older information is the official answer whilst the newer information just confused everything. Why can't that be the case here. CoM was not an elf specific release, GAZ5 was. GAZ5 insinuated that the migrations didn't meet, therefore this seems more likely. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:48:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ungolwaith On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 "S.B. Wilson" wrote: TTThat was very interesting. I always wondered what the deal was with the plateau "behind" Glantri, and this is a good idea for it. I'd be very interested in seeing the PC ideas. >After looking at my notes, I realize that we had made the character for OD&D. However, with some thought, reworking and using both the Complete Book of Humanoids and the Complete Barbarian's Handbook, I managed to come up with this: Thanks, but could you tell us about the OD&D version too? I only play OD&D. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:40:10 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Chardastes >From my homepage which is based on numerous sources it says this about Chardastes. >Chardastes >Alignment >True Neutral What is this based on? IMHO, Neutral-Good is the better AD&D alignment for Chardastes. In B9, Elwyn seems pretty evil, so it would make sense for Elwyn to be antagonizing a good philosophy. Plus, healing is more often associated with goodness, at least in my mind. YYear Immortality Achieved/Source >500 BC/WotI, 39 >Reason >Chardastes was a Traladaran which could indicate an age from about 500 BC or possibly as early >as 800 BC. Since Petra was his sponsor it seems unlikely to be early on. Anytime after 500 BC >would therefore be likely. The 500 BC date looks good. As I think about it, it seems to make more sense than 800 BC. If anyone is paying that much attention, Chardastes' date in my Western Karameikos setting should be changed. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:37:38 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another elf migration question. On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 stan wrote: JJust a question >BC 2300 By this time Ilsundal's expedition, after a long trek across western DDavania, has crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortals' Arm, and headed east along the Savage Coast. [the second] expedition takes another route through the Addakian Sound meeting up with Ilsundal's migration. (CoM) >IIRC CoM is the only place where it says that the two migrations meet. In HW it doesn't say either way but it does say that Correct, CoM is the only place where it says these two migrations meet - because this is the only place which mentions *that particular* second migration. >Which sort of implies that the two migrations didn't meet since elsewhere the indication is that the Glantri elves left the Ilsundal migration after the Ilsudal migration would have met up with (the second) migration. Yes, because we are talking about a different set of migrations. >Also in GAZ5 although it also doesn't say anything explicitly the feel of what is said seems to imply that the two migrations did not meet. I agree - the two migrations in GAZ5 do NOT meet up. >Apart from this why would everyone have forgotten the leader of the second migrations name (as said in CoM) if the migration had met up with Ilsundal's? That is a circular argument, I'm afraid. I could equally say that his name was forgotten because he was eclipsed by Ilsundal as the leader of the overall migration. >Therefore my question is, is there any good reason to make the two migrations meet up? The reason why I am asking is because the second migration (according to some work that Marco Dalmonte and myself are still working on) is going to be part of the Wendar/Denagoth elf population, and it would probably be better if their migration didn't meet up with Ilsundal's. The answer here is that the second migration is basically pointless - the only reason I can think of for it existing at all is that it is implied that the Sheyallia (and perhaps the Meditor and Verdier, who may be part of the Sheyallia) are in the second migration, and then turn off onto the Serpent Peninsula soon after meeting up. HOWEVER... you have been confused by the tangle of northward migrations! There are in fact THREE migrations. From my timeline (which is rapidly nearing completion): BC 2800 A separatist branch of the southern elves, led by Ilsundal the Wise, decides to abandon Blackmoor technology and to return to the nature orientated magic of their ancestors. They begin a long migration northward in the hope of finding the lost colony of elves which had settled near Blackmoor. (GAZ5, HW) They begin their migration with the crossing of western Davania. A second group of southern elves, whose leader's name is now lost, takes a different route north, through the Adakkian Sound. There they rejoin Ilsundal's band and continue with them. (CoM) BC 2500 In Vulcania, the elven civilisation is losing its battle with the elements; it has forgotten most of its magic and its Blackmoor technology is failing. A second separatist group of southern elves begins the long march northward. (GAZ5, HW) Thus, the two migrations which meet up do not really affect your work at all. Please note that it is from this last migration in BC 2500 that the Belcadiz elves come from. (GAZ5) >So basically is there any problem with saying that CoM got it wrong when it says the two migrations met up? Yes, and I hope that you understand now why it doesn't matter. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:20:06 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ungolwaith >Thanks, but could you tell us about the OD&D version too? I only play OD&D. LOL! Figures I'd go through all that work :) Anyway, here ya go: Ungolwaith Prime Requisite: Strength Other Requirements: Dex 10 or better; Con 12 or better XP Bonus: +5% for Str 13-15 +10% for Str 16+ Other: +2 Str; -2 Int Hit Dice: 1D8 (+2 beyond 9th level) Maximum Level: 12 Armor Allowed: Limited to AC 6 or worse Weapons Allowed: Any Special Abilities and Restrictions: Use fighter Thac0 and Saving Throws Climb Walls like thief 2 Attacks per round Must be lawful Experience Levels: Level XP 1 0 2 2,200 3 4,400 4 8,800 5 22,000 6 44,000 7 88,000 8 165,000 9 308,000 10 638,000 11 968,000 12 1,298,000 Height, weight, starting age, and natural AC are all the same as what I put in the AD&D stats. If I missed anything, let me know - we never got the chance to play much with this character so I really don't know how it would fit into a campaign. If you do use it, let me know how everything works out. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:19:48 -0500 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Just a thought. Most of the people in the list seem to think that the nucleous now creates immortals of entropy. I do not belive that since WOI started because of conflicts with this artiffact and since most immortals realize its power in elevating immortals they would just say "So long as it does not drain power from our sphere let it create immortals of entropy". That just is not logical. Sure, the immortals from Entropy will not like it draining away their influence, but they will be thrilled about the new influx of immortals they could get from this new sourse. As for the immortals of other spheres, the exapct opposite would be true. - -- "This could be heaven for everyone This world could be free, this world could be one." Heaven for everyone. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:22:46 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Enrique Pacheco wrote: >Just a thought. Most of the people in the list seem to think that the nucleous now creates immortals of entropy. I do not belive that since WOI started because of conflicts with this artiffact and since most immortals realize its power in elevating immortals they would just say "So long as it does not drain power from our sphere let it create immortals of entropy". That just is not logical. Sure, the immortals from Entropy will not like it draining away their influence, but they will be thrilled about the new influx of immortals they could get from this new sourse. As for the immortals of other spheres, the exapct opposite would be true. I think I'm still going to rule IMC that the Nucleus creates immortals of Energy. After all, it's still an artifact of Energy, and where it drains its power from is not going to affect its powers. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:41:08 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >Just a thought. Most of the people in the list seem to think that the nucleous now creates immortals of entropy. I do not belive that since WOI started because of conflicts with this artiffact and since most immortals realize its power in elevating immortals they would just say "So long as it does not drain power from our sphere let it create immortals of entropy". That just is not logical. Sure, the immortals from Entropy will not like it draining away their influence, but they will be thrilled about the new influx of immortals they could get from this new sourse. As for the immortals of other spheres, the exapct opposite would be true. So would the Nucleus just create Immortals with no sphere alignment? That would seem to be logical considering Ixion's and Rad's arguement in WoI concerning Rad obeying his superiors. That would cause all Immortals to pause and reflect on what that means to their society... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:22:07 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: [Mystara] Re: So is there a complete copy of the 1014 almanac on the web? If so, what is the address? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:29:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Enrique Pacheco wrote: >Just a thought. Most of the people in the list seem to think that the nucleous now creates immortals of entropy. I do not belive that since WOI started because of conflicts with this artiffact and since most immortals realize its power in elevating immortals they would just say "So long as it does not drain power from our sphere let it create immortals of entropy". That just is not logical. The whole WotI was started by Immortals of Energy, because of the unchecked creation of Immortals of that sphere, who did not fall into the stratification process of the hierarchy; ie, they weren't sponsored by anyone, they have no obligations to submit to the will of Ixion. A bit of a hasty generalization, but then, Ixion is fiery tempered. By changing the source of the radiance's powers (ie, saying it drains from the sphere of Entropy, rather than Energy) this matter is settled, at least among the Immortals of Energy. At any rate, the problems of the Radiance, IMO, go far deeper than all of this... more later. >Sure, the immortals from Entropy will not like it draining away their influence, but they will be thrilled about the new influx of immortals they could get from this new sourse. As for the immortals of other spheres, the exapct opposite would be true. Yes, it would, which would create problems of it's own. Perhaps a second WotI for different purposes. Fortunately, knowledge of the Radiance and it's powers is very limited, and it is _extremely_ difficult to actually use it to become an Immortal. To date, only three known Immortals have used the Radiance, or something like it, to attain Immortality: Rad, Rafiel, and Benekander. I don't really think anyone is particularly concerned with the creation of new Immortals; it is the creation of new Immortals who consider themselves 'above the law' as it were, that is the problem. Now it's Entropy's problem. Anyway, as for the Radiance, I see the problem as going back to the whole 'drains energy/entropy' thing. The Radiance is it's own source of power. We know this; it is a (modified) nuclear/magical reactor that acts as a power source for mages who know how to access it. No problems there. It was apparently modified so that it permanently drains magic from Mystara. Okay, problems. 1) The Sphere of Energy that it drains magic from isn't a place; Spheres are a concept, an ideal. They don't actually exist as locations. We need to better define Spheres. 2) If Energy is supposedly the source of all magic (which would seem to be the case if draining from the SoE drains Mystara's magic), then what about all the magic that is specific to each of the Spheres?(Gold box). Are we to assume that none of the other Immortals have any magical abilities whatsoever, save by drawing on the SoE? That makes Energy pretty damned powerful, you ask me. A bit unbalancing. Maybe that's why there are so damned many Energy Immortals (and everyone and his mother, regardless of how they were first introduced, seems to have become one- Thor, etc.) 3) According to the Gold set, anyone can choose to change his allegiances to the Spheres once he becomes Immortal; they don't have to stick with the Sphere they quested for Immortality in. Taking this, I'd say the Radiance allows potential for Immortality, and once it's attained, the user can choose whatever Sphere he wants. The reason it's biased towards Energy, is because they are the caretakers of the Radiance, and so are the first to nab new Immortals from the Radiance. Now there might be a bias towards Entropy, since they should be more of the caretakers of the Radiance; they might fight with Energy over the prospect of first pick. I don't particularly like the idea of being so static in allegiance, anyway (it's a personal thing). For one thing, why should Atzanteotl think Rafiel is an Entropic, evil Immortal (GAZ13) if he knows that he is an Energy Immortal? (I suppose, come to think of it, that the two aren't mutually exclusive- evil and Energy). Hmm... anyway, forget what I was talking about in this last paragraph here. Just concentrate on the above. I'm rambling now... :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:49:25 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: At 14.22 22/04/97 EDT, you wrote: >So is there a complete copy of the 1014 almanac on the web? If so, what is the address? Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:09:23 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #52 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7e8bdb8ee0bd84d94e76a7a1b433aafa I've tried to upload a copy of that almanac to MPGN, but for the time going it's still in the /incoming directory, from where it can't be downloaded :) If someone knows a way to put it directly in the Mystara directory please mail me. BTW: I've converted the Almanac in .doc format, anyone interested? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:22:46 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: >BTW: I've converted the Almanac in .doc format, anyone interested? I am. Leroy Van Camp III | "You know, not kneeing you in the groin malacoda@lesbois.com | is a constant struggle." owner-mystara-l@io.com | MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:16:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Ravenloft Villain While we're on the subject of possible candidates for Ravenloft, I thought of the perfect choice, one everyone seems to have forgotten about- Wastoure, the Antalian mage who is working to free the Burrowers in the Outer World. He's tragic- his empathy made him a bitter, evil person. He's evil- he wants to free the Burrowers. Maybe the Dark Powers of RL will bring him _and_ one of the (still trapped) Burrowers to RL, and create a realm around them. A symbiotic realm, where Wastoure seeks to free his master, and the Burrowers evil influence taints the realm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:47:36 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: [Mystara] Re: Alma DM wrote: >>The Immortal Patron of Witches, The Creator of the Eggy's and the Protector of Lunair, Immortal Alma has haft some problems too... When she has lately used the 'new' Nucleus, she has been stained by the entropic energies coming from the Nucleus. According to Her studyes, Her whole Immortal matrix has been changed by the use of rad, making Her partly an imortal of entrophy. Seems to Her, that if she uses the Nucleus enough, she may change wholly into a enthropic immortal... WWho the heck is this Alma? Does she figure in Glantri:KoM? Can u give me some info? As I said this was all IMC. And Alma, well she is a character of a player of mine. Became one in our longest campaing ewer, when we played these characters from level 2 to immortalhood. I have often enough told you about those adventures I think... But anyway here are some stats and a story: Name: Alma Sphere: Energy (rad), stained with some enthropy : Chaotic (maybe CN in add, I'm not sure) Rank: Temporal Level: 7 PP 500, STR 11, INT 25, WIS 20, DEX 9, Con 14, Cha 24 Powers: Ench.reflects, leech, Poison Sting (fing.nails) and Groan Manifestation form: human female, age 65, 170cm, slim, bended old woman in black robe and hat + old walking stick. In life, Alma was a human male named Extremus and born in New Avegroine Glantri. His father, a lowlevel mage sended him to the Great school where he studied, and initiated in the witchcraft. After basic studies Extremus started a carreer as an adventurer (for money, his father wasn't so rich to educate him too long) with a bunch of other peoples. Adventuring mostly on the glantri-darokin-karameikos (but also everywhere else in time and place, it was a loong campaing) they raised in levels and became mighthy. Extremus even became a member in the brotherhood of radience, and a true master in deed. as well as a 4th circle Witch. At a higher level Extremus founded the barony of Lunair just west from (now) Morlay-malinbois. Then even later he founded the barony of kern and the Principality of Sabblestone. And finaly he became an immortal just shortly before the WotI. At that time Rad made her give away Sabblestone (Guess who got it as there werent any suitable family :) mut getting mack Lunair (thanks to the order of radience :) In the WotI Alma didn't actually take any side. The only major event she did take was to help some Belcadiz elves to Greate Plague. It was ment to be used against Alphatia, but the orc invasion disturbed the plan, destroying the lab, ang making the Plague go loose in glantri etc. Also Alma (allthough she mostly still used and uses the form of Extremus) was present when Rad was succed in my the Nucleus (it was one of his old bunch handling the machine :) After the war and the dissappearance of Rad Alma/Extremuss has made lunair into a Principality, and also gaining the 'Viceroyity' of Sabblestone. Though she/he still doesnt hold much power. His major allies are Prince Drachenfels (whom he teached radience some years ago) and the witch Princess de Belcadiz. Her Major allies are the immortals Omeos and Peleon who also are players. So there. As you can see Alma/Extremuss has taken some part of Synn in my campains Glantrig as I dont like Synn. but anyway the info was for your fun. Use it if you like, or need a immortal of witches (she still hasn't got many followers). Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:04:23 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Okay, here are a few answers I hope will help a little. Bunch of people wrote (...) snipped for length: #1 <> #2 <> #3 <> #4 <> #5 <> #6 <> #7 <> #8 << The Sphere of Energy that it drains magic from isn't a place; Spheres are a concept, an ideal. They don't actually exist as locations. We need to better define Spheres.>> #9 <> #10 <> #11 <> Phew... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -------------------- In the same order: #1) Yes. Except that in a large part what used to be relevant to Immortals of Energy is now more relevant to Immortals of Entropy. The Nucleus has become an entropic machine. It helps boost the powers of entropic creatures, but in the long run, it should limit their numbers and reduce their overall power. Theoretically, this is impossible... You just can't *kill* death! A universe without entropy is a myth -- nothing would ever die or change. It is pointless and, from the point of view of Immortals, absolute oblivion nevertheless! Can't happen. This whole thing is an aberration -- a weird glitch affecting the Nucleus for the time being. If not dealt with, Entropy may end up suffering no ill effect at all, AND still boost its influence at the expense of all the others. A universe with lots more entropy, however, is always possible. Because of the implications, the Immortals will have to get together and deal with this issue and find a consensus that makes more sense; e.i. the Nucleus will have to be modified one more time to settle things properly. #2) Yes. Unfortunately, decaying effects due to the Radiance on users of the Nucleus would make it even harder to become an Immortal. Most would turn into a pile of rotting flesh faster than they could reach lichdom, much less Immortality. #3) Yes and no. The allusion to defiler style magic is a very good one. It is logical to think that in the long run the Nucleus would lessen entropic grip on Mystara. But, as I explained earlier, that's not likely to happen. *Entropy* (such as it is) may become immune to the Nucleus's ill-effects, thus eventually allowing the latter to snap back to its former self, and even swing further ahead as a reaction. That's when the Immortals -- and the whole of Mystara -- face another crisis, kind of like a world quake. #4) As explained earlier -- this is a VERY definite risk for Mystara. #5) Correct. #6) Yep. We're getting there... :) #7) Aah, yes. The decade long, ongoing goof... Yes, the spheres are NOT actual places. It's not logical that anything be physically sent to or drawn from these *intellectual* areas of interest. This means entropic power, magical energy, as well as bouncing lich-rhinos of Yith and their displacer-calves. :) How's this instead: the Nucleus pumps its magical energy (or entropic stuff) directly from *planet* Mystara. In the event that Mystara is completely bled dry by the Nucleus, the artifact would then try to reach what it seeks that may be lying further away (woops, there goes the skyshield -- nice knowin' ya!). This means places nearby later become affected too, first the moons, later other worlds. Eventually, it might spill over into areas of other planes that lie close to Mystara. We already know there is such a spot in Ylaruam which is close to the Plane of Fire (which explains its weird weather pattern). The thing eventually gets even hungrier when it starts affecting Immortal magic/entropy as well. Of course, this implies that whatever the Nucleus is, it has ties to the Old Ones. This thing may eventually gobble up the Immortals because at some point they become the biggest source of power the Nucleus can detect. Why should it be so? That's really up to these mysterious Old Ones. Perhaps they are using the artifact to keep the Immortals talking to each other (gotta teach 'em some good manners). If the Immortals behave properly, then the nucleus's awful powers are kept at bay... at least for a few decades or centuries. Keeps everyone on their toes, doesn't it? #8) Right. #9) Technically yes, but that's a bit risky. The way WoI material was developed makes the switching of allegiances less likely, although still theoretically possible. Most Immortals remain at least somewhat jealous about their allegiances with lesser Immortals. It may be a really bad idea picking a different "sphere" after an Immortal sponsored someone to Immortality. It's kind of a slap across the face really. Switching allegiances is probably more likely later in the life of an established Immortal. #10) Probably not as soon as someone attains Immortality, but maybe later, as explained above. This DOES give Energy an "edge" so to speak. It's kind of silly since the universe relies on a balance of the five spheres anyway. One might "get ahead" for a while, but the pendulum eventually swings back. We've had an Age of Energy when the Nucleus was in the hands of the energy munchkins. Now we have an Age of Entropy, where things are likely to get really bad. But then again, after the storm comes the good weather we hope. The question is -- whose turn on the barrel will it be then? What if the Nucleus then favors yet another sphere? For how long? And what would be the consequences? This can get pretty weird. In the long run, we should naturally assume each sphere will have its day of glory! Once the whole cycle goes through, what then? Immortals finally find a way to deal with the Nucleus? They quit competing? They start all over again? Old Ones show up and kick some misbehaving Immortal butts? Some Immortals becomes Old Ones, others mere mortals? All of the above? That's wide open. #11) Me too! Sorry for the long-winded post. I hope this helps. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:13:07 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Spheres >1) The Sphere of Energy that it drains magic from isn't a place; Spheres are a concept, an ideal. They don't actually exist as locations. We need to better define Spheres. Sounds like we need some definitions. >2) If Energy is supposedly the source of all magic (which would seem to be the case if draining from the SoE drains Mystara's magic), then what about all the magic that is specific to each of the Spheres?(Gold box). Are we to assume that none of the other Immortals have any magical abilities whatsoever, save by drawing on the SoE? That makes Energy pretty damned powerful, you ask me. A bit unbalancing. Maybe that's why there are so damned many Energy Immortals (and everyone and his mother, regardless of how they were first introduced, seems to have become one- Thor, etc.) I would think that Immortals of Energy do not control the use of magic any more than Immortals of Thought control thinking. It's not only a philosophy, it an area of study. Immortals of Energy concern themselves more with the magical energies of the world than with time, matter, thought, or entropy. The other Immortals might have passing interests in the subject, but their true "profession", so to speak, lies along different lines. Khronous don't control the flow of time (sort of ::grin::) any more than Ixion controls the flow of magical energy. Therefore when you ask if Immortals "have any magical abilities...save by drawing on the SoE" it's a misleading question. There is no "Sphere of Energy". It's not a place, it's like a course of study. So Ixion, as heirarch of the SoE, cannot deny another Immortal any magic. He doesn't have that kind of control. However, he IS infinatly more knowledgeable about magic than anyone else, because he has been heirarch for...I don't know....how many centuries now? Therefore, although he cannot himself control the flow of energy, he would probably know of some obscure laws of magic that would limit or restrict the flow for awhile. Anyway....I'm beginning to wander and babble. I beg your pardon... :) >3) According to the Gold set, anyone can choose to change his allegiances to the Spheres once he becomes Immortal; they don't have to stick with the Sphere they quested for Immortality in. Taking this, I'd say the Radiance allows potential for Immortality, and once it's attained, the user can choose whatever Sphere he wants. I agree with this. How many college students change their major? Or how many graduate and then get a job that is in no way related to their course of study? >The reason it's biased towards >Energy, is because they are the caretakers of the Radiance, and so are the first to nab new Immortals from the Radiance. No, I think that they are biased towards Energy is because that is their course of study - magical energies. Therefore they get together with other Immortals with the same interests (ie. the "Sphere" of Energy). >Now there might be a >bias towards Entropy, since they should be more of the caretakers of the Radiance; they might fight with Energy over the prospect of first pick. Again, the bias might change because the effect of the Nucleus. If it causes more decay and other harmful effects, those mortals studying it would realize this and those who still press forward and learn how to become an Immortal using it would have deadened themselves to the harm they were causing - thus leaning them towards other like-minded Immortals (ie. the "Sphere" of Entropy). Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:20:54 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Bruce Heard wrote: >In the same order: >#1) Yes. Except that in a large part what used to be relevant to Immortals of >Energy is now more relevant to Immortals of Entropy. The Nucleus has become >an entropic machine. It helps boost the powers of entropic creatures, but in >the long run, it should limit their numbers and reduce their overall power. >Theoretically, this is impossible... You just can't *kill* death! A universe without entropy is a myth -- nothing would ever die or change. It is >pointless and, from the point of view of Immortals, absolute oblivion nevertheless! Can't happen. >This whole thing is an aberration -- a weird glitch affecting the Nucleus >for the time being. If not dealt with, Entropy may end up suffering no ill >effect at all, AND still boost its influence at the expense of all the others. A universe with lots more entropy, however, is always possible. Because of the implications, the Immortals will have to get together and deal >with this issue and find a consensus that makes more sense; e.i. the Nucleus >will have to be modified one more time to settle things properly. HHow's this instead: the Nucleus pumps its magical energy (or entropic >stuff) directly from *planet* Mystara. So am I correct in believing that the Nucleus no longer drains magical energy but now drains "entropic stuff"? >#10) Probably not as soon as someone attains Immortality, but maybe later, as >explained above. This DOES give Energy an "edge" so to speak. It's kind of >silly since the universe relies on a balance of the five spheres anyway. One >might "get ahead" for a while, but the pendulum eventually swings back. We've >had an Age of Energy when the Nucleus was in the hands of the energy munchkins. Now we have an Age of Entropy, where things are likely to get really bad. But then again, after the storm comes the good weather we hope. >The question is -- whose turn on the barrel will it be then? What if the Nucleus then favors yet another sphere? For how long? And what would be the >consequences? This can get pretty weird. IIn the long run, we should naturally assume each sphere will have its day >of glory! Once the whole cycle goes through, what then? Immortals finally >find a way to deal with the Nucleus? They quit competing? They start all over >again? Old Ones show up and kick some misbehaving Immortal butts? Some Immortals becomes Old Ones, others mere mortals? All of the above? That's wide open. So what are the long and short term implications for the Principalities then? It seem that since Energy's "reign" is at an end and since Rad is no more, the powers of Entropy would continue to grow while the dominance of the wizardly nobles continues to decline. And the Radiance users themselves would gain in power according to their ability to more closely align themselves with the Sphere of Entropy (with Brannart, Angus, Morphail in the lead) and perhaps becoming incredibly dominant there (they would also theoretically control the Shepherds of Rad, wouldn't they? since Rad is gone). Nick Bambakidis nbamba@juno.com ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #52 **************************** Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:52:06 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #53 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: c79f0c9e4d90a9dff93bf6d9c5323f0a mystara-digest Thursday, April 24 1997 Volume 02 : Number 053 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:09:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >>1) The Sphere of Energy that it drains magic from isn't a place; Spheres are a concept, an ideal. They don't actually exist as locations. We need to better define Spheres. >Sounds like we need some definitions. Maybe this can shed some light at the subject. Or shroud it a bit more. I see the Spheres of Power much like the Force in Star Wars.(Yes the special editions recently appeared in Europe) As Obi Wan Kenobi would have said it: "The Spheres of Power is what gives an Immortal his powers. It surrounds us, penetrates us, binds the Multiverse together." In the Multiverse of Mystara, however there are five such forces, not only one. Also not all the spheres are as abstract as the Force. The sphere of Matter appears only in its manifestation; rock, earth etc... The spheres are the building blocks of reality. They are present at all planes, because everything is the Spheres. Some places are stronger with some spheres. There are i.e. planes of Energy. Also, one can argue that Mountainious areas are stronger with matter. Creatures are also made up from Spheres. As the Prime material plane is a plane of balance between the spheres, humans and animals are creatures with no specific alegiance to one sphere. Elves and magical monsters are aligned with energy, Dwarves with Matter. Immortals are masters of the spheres, but can only belong to one sphere at a time. That means they can only drain power from one sphere. It would be a fair assumption IMHO that the Old Ones are masters of all the spheres and can drain power from all of them. If their power does not come from a greater source. Perhaps the Old Ones are sources of power like the Spheres themselves.. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:30:03 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: >BTW: I've converted the Almanac in .doc format, anyone interested? I am too... But I prefer in WP6 format, I think it's better! - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:35:28 +1000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Another elf migration question. >>IIRC CoM is the only place where it says that the two migrations meet. In HW it doesn't say either way but it does say that >Correct, CoM is the only place where it says these two migrations meet - because this is the only place which mentions *that particular* second migration. >>Which sort of implies that the two migrations didn't meet since elsewhere the indication is that the Glantri elves left the Ilsundal migration after the Ilsudal migration would have met up with (the second) migration. >Yes, because we are talking about a different set of migrations. I thought that there were two migrations, and one that split off from Ilsundal and rejoined it later as well, but Jody Duncan convinced me otherwise (the discussions of this can be found in earlier digests). So, I don't think we are talking about different sets of migrations. >>Apart from this why would everyone have forgotten the leader of the second migrations name (as said in CoM) if the migration had met up with Ilsundal's? >That is a circular argument, I'm afraid. I could equally say that his name was forgotten because he was eclipsed by Ilsundal as the leader of the overall migration. We're talking about elves. They live up to 800 years. How hard can it be to remember someone's name. And why would the second leader be eclipsed? The second migration was following the second leader, they left Grunland because of that elf - for them, that elf is the big dude, just like for the first migration Ilsundal was the big dude. I doubt that all those people following the second leader would suddenly forget who that elf was because there was someone who happened to lead a similar migration earlier than the second leader. Most of the people from the second migration probably weren't even born when the Ilsundal migration started - they were following their leader. IMHO they wouldn't forget their leaders name. >Please note that it is from this last migration in BC 2500 that the Belcadiz elves come from. (GAZ5) Merely a claim from the Belcadiz elves as per GAZ3 Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:06:49 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Wed, 23 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >Okay, here are a few answers I hope will help a little. Thanks for all the info- it was all very enlightening, and (at least IMO) clarified quite a few things for me. >#7) Aah, yes. The decade long, ongoing goof... Yes, the spheres are NOT actual places. It's not logical that anything be physically sent to or drawn from these *intellectual* areas of interest. This means entropic power, magical energy, as well as bouncing lich-rhinos of Yith and their displacer-calves. :) Hey- how'd you know about the lich-rhinos of Yith? I thought that I made that up in my campaign? ;) Seriously, though, I'm glad for the clarification here. As I originally pointed out, and you confirmed, there was a definite confusion on this point that creeps into a number of places. >How's this instead: the Nucleus pumps its magical energy (or entropic stuff) directly from *planet* Mystara. In the event that Mystara is completely bled dry by the Nucleus, the artifact would then try to reach what it seeks that may be lying further away (woops, there goes the skyshield -- nice knowin' ya!). This means places nearby later become affected too, first the moons, later other worlds. Eventually, it might spill over into areas of other planes that lie close to Mystara. We already know there is such a spot in Ylaruam which is close to the Plane of Fire (which explains its weird weather pattern). I had a theory like this once, where the Nucleus draws power or somehow interacts with the World-Shield, making it gradually stronger as more energy is drained from the Nucleus. Hence, the anti-magic effects that appear. It was sort of half-formed, and I'm not entirely sure I like what I had come up with, but... The other point I want to make here is that your theory is sort of like the system of magic presented in the Coldfire trilogy by C.S. Friedman, where the magic energy is generated by the planet itself, as well as other phenomena (stars, etc.). I like the thought of the Nucleus draining the indigenous power of Mystara in order to power its own magical/nuclear drive. >The thing eventually gets even hungrier when it starts affecting Immortal magic/entropy as well. Of course, this implies that whatever the Nucleus is, it has ties to the Old Ones. This thing may eventually gobble up the Immortals because at some point they become the biggest source of power the Nucleus can detect. Why should it be so? That's really up to these mysterious Old Ones. Perhaps they are using the artifact to keep the Immortals talking to each other (gotta teach 'em some good manners). If the Immortals behave properly, then the nucleus's awful powers are kept at bay... at least for a few decades or centuries. Keeps everyone on their toes, doesn't it? Scary stuff here. That thing is a monster, if left unchecked. No wonder Ixion was a bit upset. :) Question, though, Bruce- where would the Chamber of the Spheres that Rafiel is working on (via the SE) fit into this cosmology? It doesn't have the negative applications that the NoS has (part of the reason is it hasn't been finished, but also because no Old Ones or Immortals have tampered with it). Might there eventually be some sort of "war" between the two? Or how will the CoS work- rely only on its own power source, and not the magical energy of Mystara? >#10) Probably not as soon as someone attains Immortality, but maybe later, as explained above. This DOES give Energy an "edge" so to speak. Gotcha. My point was sort of that the Energy Immortals, who are watching over the thing, get first whack at nabbing these new Immortals- sort of a first draft pick kind of thing. :) >It's kind of silly since the universe relies on a balance of the five spheres anyway. One might "get ahead" for a while, but the pendulum eventually swings back. We've had an Age of Energy when the Nucleus was in the hands of the energy munchkins. Now we have an Age of Entropy, where things are likely to get really bad. But then again, after the storm comes the good weather we hope. This would definitely explain the prominence of "really bad" things in Mystara currently, especially in Glantri. The place seems toe eternally war or conflict torn of late. Not that I'm complaining... they're just living in Interesting Times. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:26:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Sebastian Quiles wrote: >>BTW: I've converted the Almanac in .doc format, anyone interested? II am too... So am I. -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:24:04 PDT From: "Jason Buchen" Subject: [Mystara] Crow! Dose any race hold the Crow as there mystical creature in mystara? - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:26:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Sebastian Quiles wrote: >>BTW: I've converted the Almanac in .doc format, anyone interested? II am too... > But I prefer in WP6 format, I think it's better! I've converted it to Word 6.0, but I'd have no idea how to send it... :( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:25:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Nicholas C Bambakidis wrote: >So am I correct in believing that the Nucleus no longer drains magical energy but now drains "entropic stuff"? This has been the case since the end of WotI, when the Nucleus was reprogrammed. This is also one of the major reasons the war was stopped; since the Radiance no longer drains magic from Mystara, Ixion was (more or less) satisfied to end things. >So what are the long and short term implications for the Principalities then? It seem that since Energy's "reign" is at an end and since Rad is no more, the powers of Entropy would continue to grow while the dominance of the wizardly nobles continues to decline. Not necessarily. As it stands, Synn (an agent of Entropy) is a major power in Glantri, as is Morphail (an agent of Alphaks, and thus, Entropy), as is McGregor (arguably, an agent of Entropy). Kol is an ally of Entropy (though his patron Immortal, Kurtulmak isn't an Entropic Immortal, I don't believe...?).Henri _was_ an agent/ally of Entropy, before his fall. I'd call that the powers of Entropy continuing to grow. Myself, I'd like to see Morphail's dominion expand somewhat, but... >And the Radiance users themselves would gain in power according to their ability to more closely align themselves with the Sphere of Entropy (with Brannart, Angus, Morphail in the lead) and perhaps becoming incredibly dominant there (they would also theoretically control the Shepherds of Rad, wouldn't they? since Rad is gone). Morphail isn't a Radiance user, to my knowledge. I'd say that you're probably right about Brannart becoming something more powerful; I had the same thought after reading Bruce's post. Someone else posted something to the effect of him becoming an arch-lich or an Immortal lich; can we say Vecna? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:19:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >Khronous don't control the flow of time (sort of ::grin::) any more than Ixion controls the flow of magical energy. Therefore when you ask if Immortals "have any magical abilities...save by drawing on the SoE" it's a misleading question. There is no "Sphere of Energy". It's not a place, it's like a course of study. That's what I was trying to demonstrate by asking the question. I think it's rather ridiculous to assume that the Sphere of Energy controls all magic, since it _doesn't_ exist outside of being an abstract concept. Yet the thought of the NoS "draining" magic from the SoE seems to imply that the SoE controls magic. >Anyway....I'm beginning to wander and babble. I beg your pardon... :) Not at all- same thing happened to me. But we are on the same side of the issue, as I see it. Which is a good thing. :) >I agree with this. How many college students change their major? Or how many graduate and then get a job that is in no way related to their course of study? Changed mine four times, myself. Don't plan on getting a job related to the one I'm graduating with. :) >No, I think that they are biased towards Energy is because that is their course of study - magical energies. Therefore they get together with other Immortals with the same interests (ie. the "Sphere" of Energy). Okay, there's that, too. A point I hadn't thought to take into consideration. At the same time, though, say (hypothetically) that Prince McGregor attains Immortality through his use of the Radiance. While on the one hand, I'd say you have a point, and he might be biased towards Energy because of his magical interests, I'd counter that he also has interests in Necromancy, and thus might just as easily be biased towards Entropy. My point here is that the Immortals of Energy, as a result of their being the 'caretakers' of the Nucleus, have a first pick of the new Immortals- they get to present their side first, before anyone else, and thus have the earliest possible shot at persuading new Immortals over to their side. Doesn't mean they'll go for it (though, as you pointed out, their bias makes it more likely), but it does give an advantage, as it were, to Energy. >Again, the bias might change because the effect of the Nucleus. If it causes more decay and other harmful effects, those mortals studying it would realize this and those who still press forward and learn how to become an Immortal using it would have deadened themselves to the harm they were causing - thus leaning them towards other like-minded Immortals (ie. the "Sphere" of Entropy). Agreed. I definitely follow your line of reasoning here. And, again, using my line of reasoning (which need not be mutually exclusive from yours), supposing the Entropics now are the caretakers of the Nucleus, they have the first shot at convincing new Immortals of the philosophies of their Sphere. Myself, I'd put Masauwu down there to watch over them. He's a good salesman. :) The question is, then, who is currently in charge of the Nucleus? WIth Rad gone, and it leaning towards Entropy, I'd say the Entropics are watching over it (Synn's presence in Glantri may be further evidence that this is the case- that Entropic Immortals are keeping close watch on Glantri and the Radiance). But, perhaps Energy still provides the caretakers for this power? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 20:51:49 EDT From: Dave Brohman Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crow! Jason Buchen writes: >Dose any race hold the Crow as there mystical creature in mystara? i cannot say for sure, but many of the real world races that Mystaran races are modelled on do or did. Native North Americans (Atruaghin Clans on Mystara) revere the Crow. So too, if memory serves, did the ancient Greeks (Alphatians); I believe the Crow was a sacred animal of Cronos to them. The Crow/Raven is often seen as a trickster figure. It is also used to represent death and the afterlife. The mythology created by J. O'Barr for "The Crow) comic, which has been developed further in the two films and the several subsequent comic mini-series' has some very interesting variations on these traditional themes. Hope this helps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:33:46 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres The Great Old One wrote: >>So what are the long and short term implications for the Principalities >>then? It seem that since Energy's "reign" is at an end and since Rad is >>no more, the powers of Entropy would continue to grow while the dominance >>of the wizardly nobles continues to decline. >Not necessarily. As it stands, Synn (an agent of Entropy) is a major power in Glantri, as is Morphail (an agent of Alphaks, and thus, Entropy), as is McGregor (arguably, an agent of Entropy). Kol is an ally >of Entropy (though his patron Immortal, Kurtulmak isn't an Entropic Immortal, I don't believe...?).Henri _was_ an agent/ally of Entropy, before >his fall. >I'd call that the powers of Entropy continuing to grow. Uh, I was agreeing with you here, I believe.. >Myself, I'd like to see Morphail's dominion expand somewhat, but... >>And the Radiance users themselves would gain in power according to their ability to more closely align themselves with the Sphere of Entropy (with Brannart, Angus, Morphail in the lead) and perhaps becoming incredibly dominant there (they would also theoretically control the Shepherds of Rad, wouldn't they? since Rad is gone). >Morphail isn't a Radiance user, to my knowledge. Correct. My mistake. >I'd say that you're >probably right about Brannart becoming something more powerful; I had the >same thought after reading Bruce's post. Someone else posted something to >the effect of him becoming an arch-lich or an Immortal lich; can we say Vecna? ;) Nicholas Bambakidis nbamba@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:00:41 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crow! At 08:51 PM 4/23/97 EDT, you wrote: >Jason Buchen writes: >>Dose any race hold the Crow as there mystical creature in mystara? >i cannot say for sure, but many of the real world races that Mystaran races are modelled on do or did. Native North Americans (Atruaghin Clans on Mystara) revere the Crow. So too, if memory serves, did the ancient Greeks (Alphatians); I believe the Crow was a sacred animal of Cronos to them. >The Crow/Raven is often seen as a trickster figure. It is also used to represent death and the afterlife. The mythology created by J. O'Barr for "The Crow) comic, which has been developed further in the two films and the several subsequent comic mini-series' has some very interesting variations on these traditional themes. I think the Raven is the more often revered figure/totem than is the crow. I know the native americans hold the raven in higher regard than the crow... The raven is more noble.. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:05:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crow! In a message dated 97-04-23 23:17:30 EDT, you write: << Jason Buchen writes: >Dose any race hold the Crow as there mystical creature in mystara? While I'm not terribly certain about the Atruaghin Clans or the Alphatians, the Norse of the Northern Reaches hold the Crow or Raven to be the messenger of Odin; this goes for Wotan of the Heldann and Viudan of the Kymrae (Hinterlanders). Arduinn (Diulanna), as the War Goddess of the Kymrae (Hinterlanders) and Dunael (and as Arduinna to the Robrenn of the Savage Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:52:06 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #53 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: c79f0c9e4d90a9dff93bf6d9c5323f0a Coast) also has the Raven as a totem creature. Talitha, in her various aspects as a scavenger-Immortal, has the crow as a symbol and messenger, though more often such aspects are represented by vultures. In any case, the appearance of a raven or crow could be taken as either a good omen or bad omen, depending on the context. Ususally with the Norse it is taken as a good omen, as the appearance of the Raven indicates the transferral of Immortal Wisdom to a ruler or priest, though in cases where the Raven simply appears and is unwilling to come near, it can be taken as a bad omen, as "disapproval" of the ruler's actions. In other cases, the appearance of a Raven or Crow is taken as indications of Battle, and with the Kymrae and Dunael, success and failure is oft regarded as being in the hands of the individual, not in the hands of the Immortals (especially by the Kymrae; the Dunael have been rather more affected by the Vanyan cults and the ancient Finnegar faith, which places more responsibility in the hands of the Immortals). In the case of the followers of Talitha (bandits, scavengers, rifraff and scum), a Raven might guide them to rich plunder or to grim death, depending on whether they have been making the proper sacrifices of late... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:09:41 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres >My point here is that the Immortals of Energy, as a result of their being the 'caretakers' of the Nucleus, have a first pick of the new Immortals- they get to present their side first, before anyone else, and thus have the earliest possible shot at persuading new Immortals over to their side. Ah, good point. I haven't thought of it that way - but we are definately on the same wavelength. >Doesn't mean they'll go for it (though, as you pointed out, their bias makes it more likely), but it does give an advantage, as it were, to Energy. Okay, here's another question...Even though the number of Immortals created from the Nucleus is microscopic compared to the more traditional method, wouldn't the differing spheres be doing all they could to become the "caretakers" of it? Things could get downright hostile just so one group could be the first to present its sphere first. Something to think about. >Agreed. I definitely follow your line of reasoning here. And, again, using my line of reasoning (which need not be mutually exclusive from yours), supposing the Entropics now are the caretakers of the Nucleus, they have the first shot at convincing new Immortals of the philosophies of their Sphere. Myself, I'd put Masauwu down there to watch over them. He's a good salesman. :) We're very much in agreement here - especially about Masauwu. I can just see it now... Radiance User: I believe I have finally mastered the Radiance - now to finish the ultimate task. Masauwu: Greetings mortal! RU: Who...who are you? And how did you get here? M: The name's Masauwu, and I believe Immortals are allowed to go anywhere they darn well please - don't you agree? RU: An Immortal?!? I must be right! I must be an Immortal myself! Oh, where to start...what to do? M: ::rubbing hands together:: Have I got a deal for you! Let me introduce you to a few associates of mine..... >The question is, then, who is currently in charge of the Nucleus? WIth Rad gone, and it leaning towards Entropy, I'd say the Entropics are watching over it (Synn's presence in Glantri may be further evidence that this is the case- that Entropic Immortals are keeping close watch on Glantri and the Radiance). But, perhaps Energy still provides the caretakers for this power? Yes, who is in control is really the question here. Bruce's post really cleared things up for me - especially the part about the pendulum and how each sphere has it's hayday, so to speak. But is the Nucleus going to continue being the center for this balance of power? It seems like it setting up some Immortal whining (::stomping foot:: But it's OUR turn to play with it! ::stomps off pouting::) ::big grin:: Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:13:16 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >Question, though, Bruce- where would the Chamber of the Spheres that Rafiel is working on (via the SE) fit into this cosmology? It doesn't have the negative applications that the NoS has (part of the reason is it hasn't been finished, but also because no Old Ones or Immortals have tampered with it). >Might there eventually be some sort of "war" between the two? Or how will the CoS work- rely only on its own power source, and not the magical energy of Mystara? Ooo! A Mystaran nuclear war! Great Rain of Fire: Take Two! Maybe we can get the planet tilted back the right way. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:34:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >>My point here is that the Immortals of Energy, as a result of their being the 'caretakers' of the Nucleus, have a first pick of the new Immortals- they get to present their side first, before anyone else, and thus have the earliest possible shot at persuading new Immortals over to their side. >Ah, good point. I haven't thought of it that way - but we are definately on the same wavelength. We seem to be indeed. :) BTW, I loved your post on the Sand People/Ungolwaiths. I had originally placed B8- Journey to the Rock on the Plateau, and populated it with a Chameleon Man outpost (from the Savage Coast), but the Ungolwaiths would work just as well for the inhabitants of the old city up there... I'll have to think about that. I also have a humanoid leader up there IMCs, with some 'noids, but I was never quite sure who else would live up there. Lots of interesting thoughts you raised... :) >Okay, here's another question...Even though the number of Immortals created from the Nucleus is microscopic compared to the more traditional method, wouldn't the differing spheres be doing all they could to become the "caretakers" of it? Things could get downright hostile just so one group could be the first to present its sphere first. Something to think about. True, though I get the feeling that the Nucleus wasn't all that widely known about up until the WotI. And from what I can gather, the care of its keeping was given into the hands of the Energy Immortals... of course, that's not taking into account my theory of "first-draft pick"; though it would seem to cover your thoughts of "already leaning towards Energy" users. >We're very much in agreement here - especially about Masauwu. I can just see it now... [conversation with new Immortal and Masauwu snipped] Hah! :) I just had this vision of Masauwu appearing as a tiny little red imp on the new Immortal's shoulder; or else as a slicked back hair, polyester jacket wearing car salesman. Maybe he has an infomercial that he shows? Or maybe he's a big mafioso- "Lemme make you an offer you can't refuse..." And if they do, a group of Pit Fiends jump out and beat the new Immortal into a pulp. That's it! That's how the Entropics do their recruiting; it's like a protection racket- "Either youse woik for us, or we pummel you on a reg'lar type basis, an' we'll kill all yer relatives for the next millenium..." Anyway, on with the post... :) >Yes, who is in control is really the question here. Bruce's post really cleared things up for me - especially the part about the pendulum and how each sphere has it's hayday, so to speak. But is the Nucleus going to continue being the center for this balance of power? It seems like it setting up some Immortal whining (::stomping foot:: But it's OUR turn to play with it! ::stomps off pouting::) That's the big question, and it certainly is an interesting one. That nucleus seems to be a monster- good thing it isn't intelligent... (evil thought...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:45:43 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: [Mystara] Funny village In an old Dragon magazine (180-something), in Known World Grimoire, Bruce Heard wrote that since Mystaran place names were selected from real world names and then changed a bit, they ended up with a village called "goat droppings". Does anyone know which village is that? Bruce? C'mon, tell us, we won't laugh at you! ;) Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:48:11 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Nicholas C Bambakidis wrote: >So what are the long and short term implications for the Principalities then? It seem that since Energy's "reign" is at an end and since Rad is no more, the powers of Entropy would continue to grow while the dominance of the wizardly nobles continues to decline. And the Radiance users themselves would gain in power according to their ability to more closely align themselves with the Sphere of Entropy (with Brannart, Angus, Morphail in the lead) and perhaps becoming incredibly dominant there (they would also theoretically control the Shepherds of Rad, wouldn't they? since Rad is gone). Ah, but Rad is back, and hopefully will be working to set things right. We definitely need to have something about this in the next Almanac. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:08:08 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ravenloft Villain >While we're on the subject of possible candidates for Ravenloft, I thought of the perfect choice, one everyone seems to have forgotten about- >Wastoure, the Antalian mage who is working to free the Burrowers in the Outer World. i know very little about wastoure where would i find info about him??? - -Crip ======================== "Yeah, I can still hear some scratchin' inside that tomb. Or maybe is it the maggots? Let's dig!"------Bruce Heard on Mystara ======================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:08:04 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Ravenloft Villain >>While we're on the subject of possible candidates for Ravenloft, I thought of the perfect choice, one everyone seems to have forgotten about- >>Wastoure, the Antalian mage who is working to free the Burrowers in the Outer World. >i know very little about wastoure >where would i find info about him??? John Nephew created him. He appeared in DDA2 (Legions of Thyatis) and maybe in DDA1 (Sands of the Arena?). More info was in Sons of Azca, Nephew's HW "Gazetteer" of the Azcan Empire. Nephew seemed to be quite creative, but his OD&D modules required too much willing suspension of disbelief to be useful in my campaign. He had first and second level characters involved in adventures with Thincol as Wastoure. Aaron Alston tended to ignore Nephew's work in the development of the WotI/PWA storyline which was the last major Known World work. In particular, I was disappointed by any WotI reference to the Dreamlands and the sidhe from PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk which I thought was Nephew's work which best integrated into the Known World (I had Puck follow my party around in robin form for game years, keeping an eye on them for Terari). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:49:18 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crow! Hi! My Campaign centers on Thyatis, and one of the PCs now gets a dominion in the Hinterlands. So I have a question to this post >this goes for Wotan of the Heldann and Viudan of the Kymrae (Hinterlanders). Arduinn (Diulanna), as the War Goddess of the Kymrae (Hinterlanders) I´ve never heard the name Kymrae for the Hinterlanders, where do you have it from? Are there any other sourcematerial about the hinterlands except DoE? *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:28:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Boese Subject: [Mystara] re: Unofficial D&D Cyclopedia Errata Since Jason gives a URL, I thought it would be easier just to post the message than the entire Errata. - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason MacInnes To: Daniel Boese Subject: re: Unofficial D&D Cyclopedia Errata At 02:28 PM 4/20/97 -0400, Daniel Boese wrote: WWould you object if I posted your Errata to the Mystara Mailing List? The MML is dedicated to both the setting of Mystara and the original rules for that setting. I have no problem with that at all. :) However, the most recent revisions of my errata can be found at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JustJay/dderr4.htm The present list there, available to download in text form, has my current web page info and contact information. Incase of future correspondence, my e-mail address during the summer months is: 76345.3726@compuserve.com. E-mail sent to my school address, the one you used, won't be received until the fall. Later... Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:59:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres I like the idea of McGreggor becoming the new voice of Rad. An immortal Archlich who is entrophy's guardian of the Radiance. Who'll be the next to posess the Nucleus is an interstion Question. Somehow I feel that It would be wise to have the immortals of time in control of it. They if any would be aware of the long time consequences. However as some other poster mentioned, Rad is back. And I feel that the events in Mark of Amber has been good lessons for him. If he becomes immortal again, I think he will become very powerful. Becoming immortal twice is not something we all experience.. Rad will undoubtedly try to return the Radience to the Sphere of Energy. He will also try to investigate it further. How Ixion and Rad will deal with this is an other matter, though I think they'll both fo their best to avoid another conflict like WotI. Rad and Immortal Mcgreggor will become sworn enemies in this scenario. Any thoughts on this. I think some of this should be included in the next almanac if its developed further. We need to hear more about Rad. He could become the real Hero of Mystara. Even if he aint _of_ Mystara... Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:43:15 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Arica Times New Roman Awhile back, Dragon Magazine ran a few articles about running an African campaign. I know next to nothing about African culture, but I wanted to put something like it in my campaign. My problem was, I didn't know where to put it. Later, while I was looking at the large fold-out map (from the Hollow World set) showing the migration routes of very peoples on the postcataclysmic outer world. One place caught my eye - NW Davania near the Immortal's Arm Peninsula. It said "Tanagoro Colony 2,000 BC." Perfect. It also showed some humanoids moving through at various times. Good. Something to work with. Also, in Dragon #200 pg 62 last paragraph gave me the idea for the ogre-kin. I'm afraid the names of this place and of the surrounding nations aren't very creative. Anyway...here is another creation of mine: Name: Arica Continent: Davania Location: NW of the Desert of Izonda Climate: Tropical/Sub Tropical Terrain: Jungle, grasslands, desert, and mountains Inhabitants: Humans 95% Ogre-kin 5% Population: Roughly 150,000 6% Civilized 14% Borderlands 75% Wilderness Technological Level: Bronze Age Cultural Type: Hunter-gatherer/Pastoralists/Minor Horticulture Social Structure: Joint-sibling bands and bilateral descent tribes Government: Bands/7 political tribes Language: Arican, Ogre Resources and Products: Oxen and zebra herds, precious and non-precious metals Imports: None Exports: None Currency: Barter and precious metals in the form of plain jewelry Taxes: None Social Customs: Siblings and spouse's siblings form bands which work and live together but the tribe which they belong to depends on their father (males) or mother (females). Men are the hunters, fighters, and herdsmen; women do the farming and raising of children. Bands make decisions on everyday life and tribes define an individual's function (class and usually kit). Laws: Women may not become warriors. Disputes are brought before a temporary council of elders (usually the oldest) of the pertinent tribes or bands. Only major problems concerning foreigners are worth bringing elders from all seven tribes together for. Ogre-kin barely tolerated because of their mining practices. No thieves. (Use rakes from DoE instead) History: 2000 BC - Tanagoro colonists arrive from the west and settle along the jungle-filled coast. They slowly move to the plains beyond and lose all contact with their homeland. They set up seven tribes based on "profession" to help deal with their new land but the younger generation feels they can look after each other without so-called laws (thus, the creation of the sibling bands). 1800 BC - Ten generations later they learn to domesticate the ox and zebra. All knowledge of their homelands is lost to myth and legend. They now think of themselves as Aricans. 1300 BC - A large horde of humanoids invades from the north and enslaves the Aricans. Ogres mate with Arican slaves and give birth to a new race of ogre-kin who are much smarter than their ogre parents. 900 BC - After four centuries, the humanoid horde finally gets bored with being rulers and head out for conquest across the Desert of Izonda. The ogre-kin stay around to mine precious metals in the mountains to the north. 800 BC - Most of the ogre-kin head north to find a land spoken of in the tales of their ogre forefathers. The Aricans experiment with horticulture, but prefer hunting and herding. They are too nomadic for serious agriculture. 100 AC - Explorers from the Empire of Izonda and the Pelatan Kingdom both try to convert and then subjugate the Aricans. They end up warring against each other while the Aricans ferociously attack both sides. 110 AC - The king of Pelatan, bankrupt from the war and too proud to admit that he lost, "cedes" the Arican region to Izonda ignoring protests that Pelatan never owned it to begin with. Izonda builds a fort near the gold mines and promptly forgets about it in the pressures of everyday dealings of the empire. 550 AC - Spread of lycanthropy. Rise of the Bokor and the Zande Witch Women. (see Dragon #200, pg 14-18) 1000 AC - Ogre-kin begin "encouraging" (read: enslaving) the Aricans towards greater participation in mining precious metals. Several bands are trying to get a Tribal Council together of all seven tribes. Major Settlements Name Area Livelihood Population Carrock W. Izonda Wall Mining 5000 (90% ogre-kin) El Djazair NW Izonda Wall Fort/"Ambassador" office 225 (Izondians) Coroaci S Arica Religious mission 115 (Pelatans) Neighboring Lands Name Government Type Relationship Izonda Dictatorship Ignore each other (for now) Pelatan Hierocracy Occasional contact through missionaries Note: The only development I have done on Izonda or Pelatan is all above. I know nothing of them save what is written here. I do know that neither one is very big (despite being named after some of the biggest geographical features in the area ::big grin:: Maybe they are both REALLY self-important) and there is some bad blood between them. Pelatan is more religious (hence the government type) and Izonda is just an all around crappy neighbor. As for what race they are, I have no idea. I doubt Izonda is human but I would probably make the Pelatans some kind of Neathar-descent. Anyone is more than welcome to develop these two nations more - I would be more than happy to hear what you come up with. Steve ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #53 **************************** Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:12:14 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #54 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 48e183d6dae74eb100fccf445214d996 mystara-digest Friday, April 25 1997 Volume 02 : Number 054 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:13:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Black Rock What is the Blackrock? >From what Ive learned from previous postings, it is a strange magical rock that existed in the Blackmoor area. It has strange effects on magic and technology, which was the reason of the crashing of the FSS Beagle (the legendary spacecraft) After the realm of blackmoor blew up causing the Great Rain of Fire (all which also might be linked to the blackrock) this mineral was spread all over mystara. I dont know if any of this is official information or merely the speculations of posters to this list. However Im intrigued by this. How rare would this mineral be? What would be the effects of a magical item made of blackrock. What is its origin? For some reason I start thinking of Kryptonite. Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:20:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Western Karameikos On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: OOn Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >>Does anyone know which of the B's this info originally was published in? (if any) Someone claimed that Chardastes was part of the Church of Karameikos according to the B1-9 collection. Does it give any explaination for why the Church of Karameikos would worship a Traldaran hero? >I think it's B9: Castle Caldwell and Beyond (I don't know if that's the right module #, but that's the name of the module). It's in one of the adventures, entitled "Elwyn's Sanctuary". >Note that GAZ1 was not released at this time, and no info on the Church of Karameikos was available. Yes, I realize that, and for that reason I will ignore the part linking Chardastes to the CoK. However he is probably not very popular among all the followers of the Traldaran faith. He's followers are probably mostly the ones in Western Karameikos. Thanks to all you guys who've given me info on this matter. :) Haavard. - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:11:44 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Arican adventures Times New Roman Now that I had Arica somewhat fleshed out - I wanted to use it. My problem was this: My characters were nowhere near the area and I couldn't think of a good way to get them there. So I cheated. :) Anyway, here are the adventures my characters went through in the distant land of Arica: 1) The characters appear in an Arican village through some kind of dimensional warp (my cheat) 2) There is a battle going on - the villagers are trying to defend themselves against a gnoll attack led by a huge gnoll (actually a Bokor). The characters help win the battle, but the gnoll leader flees. 3) The village holds a feast for the PCs where they are told stories about the land and the recent attacks by the usually quiet gnolls. The next day the local Zande Witch Woman shows up. The villagers relate the events of the previous day and of the strange appearance of the PCs. The Witch mumbles something about a Bokor and tells them that she doesn't know how they can get home, but the Eldest might. She sends them to a nearby zebrataur (Dragon #202 pg 50) village where they can get a ride to the coast where the Eldest lives. 4) The zebrataurs will help the PCs in return for a service. The leader wants a magical staff from a giant cube fortress (A Role-aide adventure "A Question of Gravity" - an all around excellent adventure) 5) They travel several days to the coast on zebrataur-back 6) They meet the Eldest (a turtle-dragon). He doesn't know how to solve the PCs problem - so he send them to his friend Ananzi, who would know more about that kind of thing. 7) A trip to the mountains finds Ananzi (a planar-spider) in a small cave. He listens to their story and tells them their being here is connected to a Bokor. That Bokor must be destroyed before they can go home. 8) Travel back to the starting village. Zebrataurs take their leave and the Zande Witch Woman accompanies the PCs to the Bokor abode. (I used the old AD&D module "Secret of Bone Hill" using Telvar the Mage stats for the Bokor) 9) When the Bokor is killed he becomes a wraith and retreats to room BK 10) Upon the wraith's "death" a portal opens leading to the PC's home So that is how my characters adventured in a far-away land. They don't really even know where they were, but oh well....maybe later they can go back and find out what has happened since the WoI. Needless to say, the above is a VERY light sketch of what happened. I didn't give all the details away....it would take too long. ;) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:00:22 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Almanac in .doc format At 15.30 23/04/97 +0300, Sebastian Quiles wrote: BBBTW: I've converted the Almanac in .doc format, anyone interested? II am too... > But I prefer in WP6 format, I think it's better! WP6? What is it? Word Perfect 6? I have it in Word 6 format, if you know how to convert it I can send you my files. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 16:24:51 EDT From: Jody Duncan Subject: Re: [Mystara] Black Rock Haavard Roenne Faanes writes: >What is the Blackrock? >>From what Ive learned from previous postings, it is a strange magical rock tthat existed in the >Blackmoor area. It has strange effects on magic and technology, which was the reason of the crashing of the FSS Beagle (the legendary spacecraft) After the realm of blackmoor blew up causing the Great Rain of Fire (all which also might be linked to the blackrock) this mineral was spread all over mystara. >I dont know if any of this is official information or merely the speculations of posters to this list. However Im intrigued by this. How rare would this mineral be? What would be the effects of a magical item made of blackrock. What is its origin? For some reason I start thinking of Kryptonite. Hrm, what properties would a sword made of a blackrock/cynnabril alloy have? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive!" Carleton U. Computer Science, Software Email addresses: jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:17:49 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres In a message dated 97-04-23 21:18:20 EDT, Cthuldrew writes: << Question, though, Bruce- where would the Chamber of the Spheres that Rafiel is working on (via the SE) fit into this cosmology? It doesn't have the negative applications that the NoS has (part of the reason is it hasn't been finished, but also because no Old Ones or Immortals have tampered with it). >> That's wide open for interpretation. The entropic influence presently affecting the Nucleus could extend to the Chamber of the Stars, although not necessarily, especially if contruction hasn't yet been completed in your campaign (or was completed AFTER the Nucleus got messed up). It then stands as a separate artifact. My guess is that at some point, when the whole *cosmic* cycle goes through, the Nucleus desintegrates. Then starts a new cycle, centering on the Chamber and the shadow elves... and more. The other Immortals would also attempt to construct such devices on their own, one for each sphere of activity. The question is... where, when, and by whom? I'm making a huge assumption here -- perhaps the eventual destruction of the Nucleus itself takes place when the Immortals of each sphere manage to create an equivalent device serving their purposes. Each of these new devices robs its powers from the old Glantrian Nucleus. When all devices are up and runing, the Nucleus is empty and finally disintegrates (ouch -- effect on Glantri!?). At this point, the Chamber inherits the goal to support the purposes of sphere of Energy. This is artifact is clearly indentifiable now. The others remain to be identified and located on Mystara. Thus this little game: (everyone interested gets to vote!) Where would you put the other artifacts? Who would be their unwitting caretakers? What would be their powers? What would be their drawbacks? This could include cultures in the Hollow World, even the Myoshiman rakastas. Post your ideas here (don't send me personal emails, please). I'm curious to see what you come up with! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:49:11 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Funny village In a message dated 97-04-24 16:30:06 EDT, Aleksei writes: << In an old Dragon magazine (180-something), in Known World Grimoire, Bruce Heard wrote that since Mystaran place names were selected from real world names and then changed a bit, they ended up with a village called "goat droppings". Does anyone know which village is that? Bruce? C'mon, tell us, we won't laugh at you! ;) >> Can you paste the exact quote -- I remember this statement (vaguely), although I wonder if there *really* is such a village name. I think it said something like "some of the names may end up meaning something like goat-droppings". An accidental result of the (often ignorant and chaotic) manipulation of existing foreign words could certainly cause this. Remember the great plan Chevy had to sell their brand new *Nova* in Mexico? How about a famous cold drink manufacturer advertizing their drink in China by unwittingly implying it would revive their ancestors? How about this one -- I caught the translation of the French Spellfire packaging before it went into production. The box was supposed to "boost the power of card decks" (or something like that), which ended up meaning "augments your potency during the game". We'll let everyone interpret exactly what kind of potency this alluded to. I had it removed after a goof laugh. Things like that happen. I'm sure we have a few unknown gems hiding somewhere in Mystara too! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:56:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crow! In a message dated 97-04-24 12:27:26 EDT, you write: << My Campaign centers on Thyatis, and one of the PCs now gets a dominion in the Hinterlands. So I have a question to this post >this goes for Wotan of the Heldann and Viudan of the Kymrae (Hinterlanders). Arduinn (Diulanna), as the War Goddess of the Kymrae (Hinterlanders) I´ve never heard the name Kymrae for the Hinterlanders, where do you have it from? Are there any other sourcematerial about the hinterlands except DoE? Peter Balazs >> Actually, it is from my own development of the world of Mystara. I designed the Hinterlanders to be past Welsh and part Cimmerian (as in REH). As they themselves would hardly use the name "Hinterlander" for themselves (such being a designation used by the Thyatians), I had to think up an appropriate sounding name... thus, the Kymrae (Kymru, Gomer, Cimmerians, etc.). In my history of Mystara the Kymrae are descended from Dunael slaves taken with the Antalians during the era of Nithian colonization (the Dunael, by the way, are the native inhabitants of the Dunadale region (Celts, early phase; British/Scots, modern era in Dunadale, Irish in Redstone, which they refer to as Aran); again, my own development). During that time thousands of Antalians, Traldar and Dunael were exported as slaves to the Southern Continent; after the rebellion in 900 BC, they formed three Great Tribes as well as numerous minor clans. The greatest tribe of that era were the Hattians, who were pure Antalians; the second most powerful were the Thyatians, descended from a mix of Antalians and Traldar; and then there was the Kerendan Tribe, descended from mixed clans of Antalians and Dunael. The minor clans were mostly Dunael, and were the predecessors of the Kymrae, aka the Hinterlanders... I've developed the lesser known areas of Mystara rather extensively, at least, in the region around the Known World. The population figures for the various territories never struck me as being terribly accurate, and the abscence of native populations in colonized areas (notably, the Isle of Dawn), ledme to develop numerous "Lost Tribes", a number of which have been discussed in part in the Mystara ans RS/SC folders on AOL. As a side note, would I be able to attach files to posts to the Mystara List? If so, I will post such information as I can about my developments as they become available... most of my stuff is still inpaper format, though, so waht I write tends to be piecemeal, and I also tend to assume much in the way of prior knowledge about my developments, when there would be no way for anyone to have such knowledge, unless they played in my campaign... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:09:02 -0400 From: Chris Frisby Subject: Re: [Mystara] Almanac in .doc format At 08:00 PM 4/24/97 +0000, you wrote: >At 15.30 23/04/97 +0300, Sebastian Quiles wrote: BBBBTW: I've converted the Almanac in .doc format, anyone interested? III am too... Yes i would like a copy of the almanac in .doc format thanks - -- Friz I hit the CTRL key but I'm still not in control! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:06:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Funny village In a message dated 97-04-24 18:52:52 EDT, you write: << Things like that happen. I'm sure we have a few unknown gems hiding somewhere in Mystara too! :) >> I know where you're coming from here! In my version of the Temple of Chaos of Great Hule, all the Immortals have been given "Hulean" names... God help me if anyone who understands Turkish actually reads them! (Example: Bagni Gullymaw is known as Yemekhershey to the Huleans, which means something like "He Who Eats Everything" in Turkish). When you are working from a phrase book, strange things can happen... Myst ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:32:04 PDT From: "Jason Buchen" Subject: [Mystara] Long Bow One of my charecters weapons is a long bow. I have heard that in some cases a weapon that has been used in many battles gains special inhansments(A sword that has been used to kill dragons and has been used to slay many dragons if magicaly in hansed gains magical powers for killing dragons (+1).)How would that work with a long bow that has fired about a hundred different magical arrows?lightning, damage, and a few very powerfull arrows - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:01:07 PDT From: "Jason Buchen" Subject: [Mystara] spelling Sorry about my spelling just a typo (enhance enhancements)inhance inhancements close enough! - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:55:55 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: [Mystara] Mounts you know, I was looking through the Red Steel box set the other day and I noticed something kinda funny: the Tortles ride giant turtles, the Lupins ride giant wolves, the Rakastas ride giant cats, so what do the people ride? Giant monkeys?? Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:10:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Black Rock On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >What is the Blackrock? >From what Ive learned from previous postings, it is a strange magical rock that existed in the Blackmoor area. It has strange effects on magic and technology, which was the reason of the crashing of the FSS Beagle (the legendary spacecraft) This is all more or less correct. The area that Blackmoor (the city and castle) was built in was very magical (more so than the rest of Mystara), due to the presence of the magical black "rock"; a layer of rock beneath and around the Blackmoor area. It had some weird magical properties that caused it to have strange effects on magic. The black rock wasn't in itself responsible for the Beagle's crash- it was the magical nature of Mystara, period. The Beagle's engines acted oddly in the highly magical realm of Blackmoor. >After the realm of blackmoor blew up causing the Great Rain of Fire (all which also might be linked to the blackrock) this mineral was spread all over mystara. This part isn't canon, though it could conceivably be true. The black rock is part of the foundation of the Comeback Inn, so there is still some of it out there. Whether it still retains its strange properties is an academic question, as there isn't evidence either way to suggest whether it drew its power from its connection to the earth (my guess would be it was somehow related to the Worldshield's matter), or was magical on its own. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:03:28 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >That's wide open for interpretation. The entropic influence presently affecting the Nucleus could extend to the Chamber of the Stars, although not >necessarily, especially if contruction hasn't yet been completed in your campaign (or was completed AFTER the Nucleus got messed up). It then stands >as a separate artifact. IMHO, the CoS should have been completed just before the end of WotI. If the nucleus is now permanently out of the Sphere of Energy, that sphere should already have their artifact completed. MMy guess is that at some point, when the whole *cosmic* cycle goes through, the Nucleus desintegrates. Then starts a new cycle, centering on the >Chamber and the shadow elves... and more. The other Immortals would also attempt to construct such devices on their own, one for each sphere of activity. The question is... where, when, and by whom? II'm making a huge assumption here -- perhaps the eventual destruction of >the Nucleus itself takes place when the Immortals of each sphere manage to >create an equivalent device serving their purposes. Each of these new devices >robs its powers from the old Glantrian Nucleus. When all devices are up and Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:12:14 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #54 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 48e183d6dae74eb100fccf445214d996 >runing, the Nucleus is empty and finally disintegrates (ouch -- effect on Glantri!?). >At this point, the Chamber inherits the goal to support the purposes of >sphere of Energy. This is artifact is clearly indentifiable now. The others >remain to be identified and located on Mystara. TThus this little game: (everyone interested gets to vote!) Where would you >put the other artifacts? Who would be their unwitting caretakers? What would >be their powers? What would be their drawbacks? This could include cultures >in the Hollow World, even the Myoshiman rakastas. PPost your ideas here (don't send me personal emails, please). I'm curious >to see what you come up with! :) >Bruce Heard These are awesome ideas! Here's my initial ideas for a vote... Since the sphere of entropy seems to be currently focusing a lot of attention of Glantri, perhaps that's where their artifact should be built. After that, perhaps the Sphere of Matter will place one somewhere in the Hollow World (I'm not sure where, though). Then Thought in the newly-being-developed MOrient, or else in Alphatia. Then lastly Time will place one in Undersea (the most ignored nation on Mystara). Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:05:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >Social Structure: Joint-sibling bands and bilateral descent tribes Taken an anthro course or two, have you? ;) >Note: The only development I have done on Izonda or Pelatan is all above. I know nothing of them save what is written here. I do know that neither one is very big (despite being named after some of the biggest geographical features in the area ::big grin:: Maybe they are both REALLY self-important) and there is some bad blood between them. Pelatan is more religious (hence the government type) On the map in the Master DM's book, the Pelatan region is marked as being the Matriarchy of Pelatan. It has been postulated here on the list that perhaps they are an Amazonian culture. Myself, I've postulated that they are a culture similar to the Afridhi (or perhaps descended from them) the "barbaric" race of invaders from the DA series of modules. They worshipped an Immortal known as Zugzul, and their culture was a Matriarchy. >and Izonda is just an all around crappy neighbor. As for what race they are, I have no idea. I doubt Izonda is human but I would probably make the Pelatans some kind of Neathar-descent. Anyone is more than welcome to develop these two nations more - I would be more than happy to hear what you come up with. I don't remember what the MDM map said about Izonda. I think it just called the region Izonda. Later developments turned Izonda into a big desert. My thoughts would be either Sis'thik (I've postulated the Sis'thik populate the Aryptian Desert- Izonda's not far away migration wise, given the amount of time that has passed). Another idea might be the Sand People (from the DA series... and wasn't it you that put up the Ungolwaith bit?) If we assume that Afridhi migrants populated Pelatan, then Sand People migrants in Izonda might not be a major stretch. 'Sfunny, I once had a cleric named Zyrath from Izonda. Just 'cause I liked how the name sounded. "I'm Zyrath of Izonda." If only I had some idea exactly how far away the Known World was from Davania, I might not have done that... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:16:08 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >IMHO, the CoS should have been completed just before the end of WotI. If the nucleus is now permanently out of the Sphere of Energy, that sphere should already have their artifact completed. I don't agree. But I'll discuss it later. >>Thus this little game: (everyone interested gets to vote!) Where would yyou >>put the other artifacts? Who would be their unwitting caretakers? What wwould >>be their powers? What would be their drawbacks? This could include ccultures >>in the Hollow World, even the Myoshiman rakastas. PPPost your ideas here (don't send me personal emails, please). I'm ccurious >>to see what you come up with! :) >>Bruce Heard >These are awesome ideas! Here's my initial ideas for a vote... Since the sphere of entropy seems to be currently focusing a lot of attention of Glantri, perhaps that's where their artifact should be built. After that, perhaps the Sphere of Matter will place one somewhere in the Hollow World (I'm not sure where, though). Then Thought in the newly-being-developed MOrient, or else in Alphatia. Then lastly Time will place one in Undersea (the most ignored nation on Mystara). Agreed with Tought, Matter and Time. But I'd place something in Davania, maybe in the south. Perhaps Entropy was developing such a project there, we might have a powerful necromantic or undead nation down there. Yes, the Nucleus is theirs now, but that was by an Old One intervention, something no Immortal would be able to foresee and a kind of mixed blessing at best. My vote is that each Sphere has already one such a project running for sometime. We only know about Rafiel's Chamber because that's the only one in the Known World or near it. Some should be ahead of others and the Immortals responsible for these projects might want the help of adventurers to make the others Spheres' works more difficult. However, just a few visionary Immortals are involved. I don't think the whole Sphere of Energy even knows about Rafiel's work. And then, it has just occurred to me we don't have to stop at only one artifact per Sphere. I mean, Rafiel's work is not an Energy artifact, but his own. What if with the end of WotI, the Immortals have learned how to make something as powerful as the Nucleus. That meeting at the end ( PCs, Benekander, Ixion, Valerias, Vanya, Asterius, Rafiel and Thanatos) might be more than just it seemed. They were together during the Week without Magic, studying the NoS and have come to some conclusions: - - It is more powerful than any artifact an Immortal has ever built. - - Immortal level magic can control it, but not completely. - - They discover how to make such artifacts. You need at least one Imortal, who will guide the construction and you need the faith and efforts of a nation. Rafiel was thrilled about it, he is up to something much bigger than he tought. Of course, such artifacts are not easily done, they require quite sometime to finish. Some Hierarchs (Thanatos and Ixion) notice that building an artifact is one of the requirements of some Spheres in their Trials for immortalhood. They start imagining if such an Immortal Artifact could not be part of the way to become an Old One. Glantri developed its magic very rapidly. Compared to the 2000 years old Alphatia, they have learned very much in a very little time. That occurred because there was an Energy artifact under it. Their history might have lead to a new Blackmoor if the Old One had not intervened. Soon, it could be controlling the world, and that was one extra reason Ixion used during the war to get support to Alphatia. So, in 1010 AC, the race started. Those seven (or six, I have also one theory about Vanya and Thanatos I posted to the list once, but that's not the place to discuss it) will not be telling everybody, but they will make some alliances. The sad point about all this is that it would take too much time to have great effects in our campaigns, as when those artifacts are near to conclusion. I'd prefer a few of them to be ready in the next one or two decades, so I'm willing to hear reasons why the Immortals have known of it before. More on it later, I hope. Andre Martins ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:35:51 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >I like the idea of McGreggor becoming the new voice of Rad. An immortal Archlich who is entrophy's guardian of the Radiance. Who'll be the next to posess the Nucleus is an interstion Question. Somehow I feel that It would be wise to have the immortals of time in control of it. They if any would be aware of the long time consequences. >However as some other poster mentioned, Rad is back. And I feel that the events in Mark of Amber has been good lessons for him. If he becomes immortal again, I think he will become very powerful. Becoming immortal twice is not something we all experience.. >Rad will undoubtedly try to return the Radience to the Sphere of Energy. He will also try to investigate it further. How Ixion and Rad will deal with this is an other matter, though I think they'll both fo their best to avoid another conflict like WotI. >Rad and Immortal Mcgreggor will become sworn enemies in this scenario. Any thoughts on this. I think some of this should be included in the next almanac if its developed further. We need to hear more about Rad. He could become the real Hero of Mystara. Even if he aint _of_ Mystara... Very good ideas. Like I said before, we should have this developed further in the next almanac. However, we need to establish whether Rad will "officially" be Immortal or not, because Mark of Amber can have different endings depending on how well the PCs do. Not that it would matter that much, Rad is pretty powerful even without his Immortal powers, but still. Also, consider this scenario: Alphaks tells Prince Morphail about the Radiance and its powers, and Morphail approaches Rad with a suggestion: he will aid him against McGregor in return for ability to use the Radiance. This would allow Alphaks to indirectly affect the affairs of the Nucleus through his follower Morphail. How does this sound? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:39:34 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Long Bow On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Jason Buchen wrote: >One of my charecters weapons is a long bow. I have heard that in some cases a weapon that has been used in many battles gains special inhansments(A sword that has been used to kill dragons and has been used to slay many dragons if magicaly in hansed gains magical powers for killing dragons (+1).)How would that work with a long bow that has fired about a hundred different magical arrows?lightning, damage, and a few very powerfull arrows It doesn't. If any magical weapon is used in great feats it doesn't gain any powers. After all if Ragnar kills the 43 Trolls with his +5 Vorpal Sword of Destruction its just not as impressive as killing 43 Trolls with a Club he ripped off a nearby Oak Tree. The Club might become enchanted as a Club +1(+3) vs. Regenerating Creatures, no enchantment needed, the sheer "coolness" of single handedly killing 43 Trolls with a club is enough. Incidently the exact rules are in one of the Player's Option Books. (High Level Campaigns I think) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:23:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Sun-Wights? I was wondering, if any of you have done a Hollow World campaign, what happend to the Sun-Wights? Did they have an influence on the Campaign or the HW. I believe the were introduced for the first time in the HW Campaign setting Adventure book. Also any other interesting HW info would be interesting. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:10:54 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica >Taken an anthro course or two, have you? ;) ::sigh:: Yeah, one of those "I think I'll major in..." type-thing. I really enjoyed the classes though...also really makes thing interesting when plotting and schemeing for Mystara. ;) >On the map in the Master DM's book, the Pelatan region is marked as being the Matriarchy of Pelatan. This I did not know...well, like I said, I knew nothing about the area - that's why I put Arica there. :) >It has been postulated here on the list that perhaps they are an Amazonian culture. Myself, I've postulated that they are a culture similar to the Afridhi (or perhaps descended from them) the "barbaric" race of invaders from the DA series of modules. They worshipped an Immortal known as Zugzul, and their culture was a Matriarchy. Hmm...I think I like the Amazon culture. I'll have to give it some thought. As for the Afridhi, I always believed they were assimilated or destroyed by Blackmoor as it got more powerful. Either way, I never thought that the Afridhi culture survived - one of the ones that Ka couldn't get to in time for Hollow World transplanting - and thus Zugzul disappeared because he couldn't get anymore followers. Ah well, just my thoughts. >I don't remember what the MDM map said about Izonda. I think it just called the region Izonda. Later developments turned Izonda into a big desert. My thoughts would be either Sis'thik (I've postulated the Sis'thik populate the Aryptian Desert- Izonda's not far away migration wise, given the amount of time that has passed). For the brief time I've spent on the continent, I too put the Sis'thik (or some other serpentine creatures) in the Aryptian Basin. I liked the 1014 almanac's ideas about the KPE finding Yuan-ti in the nearby area. It just fits the region for some reason. As for Izonda...I don't know, I'd have to really think about it and see what I can come up with. >Another idea might be >the Sand People (from the DA series... and wasn't it you that put up the Ungolwaith bit?) Yeah, that was me...I don't think the sand people would thrive all that well without access to Blackmoor technology. ::shrug:: >If we assume that Afridhi migrants populated Pelatan, then Sand People migrants in Izonda might not be a major stretch. True. The one problem I have is that we (myself included) seem to try and tie too much into what we know about the past. In other words, although it might make it more "Mystaran" by connecting it to some cryptic reference, it makes the world a very small place, so to speak, and doesn't give much room for "new blood". I'm not sure that makes sense even to me...if anyone understands, please let me know and explain it back to me. ;) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:39:05 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres At 15.35 25/04/97 +0300, you wrote: >Very good ideas. Like I said before, we should have this developed further in the next almanac. However, we need to establish whether Rad will "officially" be Immortal or not, because Mark of Amber can have different endings depending on how well the PCs do. Not that it would matter that much, Rad is pretty powerful even without his Immortal powers, but still. I think it was "officially" decided that Rad returns as mortal, but with the chance of becoming Immortal again. It was the second ending of MoA IIRC. >Also, consider this scenario: Alphaks tells Prince Morphail about the Radiance and its powers, and Morphail approaches Rad with a suggestion: he will aid him against McGregor in return for ability to use the Radiance. This would allow Alphaks to indirectly affect the affairs of the Nucleus through his follower Morphail. How does this sound? Good, but remember that Morphail, living so far from Glantri City, would be the one who benefits the less by using the Radiance. His powers would be somewhat limited (need to check Gaz3 on this). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:35:14 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mounts In a message dated 97-04-25 03:47:10 EDT, Aron writes: << so what do the people ride? Giant monkeys?? >> Nah. MONKEYS ride giant monkeys. Humans ride anything they can sit on! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:22:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Hows this for an idea. What if after a few years or more have passed, the OLD Ones notice that entropic immortals ARE becoming too powerful a force on Mystara. And they don't like the way that the Nucleus is draining too much entropy from its surroundings on Mystara. Once again, the old ones decide to interfere and they modify the nucleus to draw an equal amount of power from each shere. This event could be the culmination of another WotI, with entropy and its many new minions battling the other spheres' forces. Tell me what you think of this. I'm especially interested in Bruce's comments. I do not often post to the list and have only been on it for a little while. However, this is just an idea that I've come up with. It is not really well fleshed out yet, I'm just looking for an initial reaction. I really didn't like the idea of each sphere having its own ultra-powerful artifact that could make immortals. It kind of trivializes immortality on mystara. Ryan Nestler ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:32:06 PDT From: "Jason Buchen" Subject: [none] I have a character named Jahova, and he calls him self the follower. Vania saved him from certain loss of a leg. From that point forward he has become quite the Vania follower he eats sleeps and breaths for Vania's causes. he wants to build a church in her name to show his appreciation for what Vania has done for him, not just any church. A floating church, A great feat for a character that dosnt have a clue as to using magic. This floating church will be high above the ground some where around Karameikos. Jahova plans to have shrines placed in every church that praises Vania. The shrines will take any true follower of Vania to the sacred church of the follower. In order to use these shrines you must know the prare of the follower this is what will activate the shrine and take them to the church of the follower. Jahova will tell only the high priests form the churches that follow Vania of the followers church and the followers prare so that they can pass it on to who they think is worthy of being a member of the church of the followers and there causes! How do you feel about Jahova's plans do you think they are realistic or do you see any flaws or do you have thoughts to add please do I would like to here what you think of Jahovas plans! - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:26:51 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mounts At 02:35 PM 4/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-25 03:47:10 EDT, Aron writes: ><< so what do the people ride? Giant monkeys?? >> >Nah. MONKEYS ride giant monkeys. Humans ride anything they can sit on! :) >Bruce Heard ahh, I suppose you're right, at least by my previous logic. Then again, following that logic, I guess humans could ride on giants (although I don't think the giants would appreciate it much). Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #54 **************************** Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:59:51 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #55 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 14e88636d513c3f32aa3ef8c653ffbb4 mystara-digest Saturday, April 26 1997 Volume 02 : Number 055 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:31:02 -0400 From: Chris Frisby Subject: [Mystara] Dragonlord armour and sword Is there any statistical info on The dragonlords armour and sword? - -- Friz Trojan: Storage device for replicating codes... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:22:08 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Ryan Andrew Nestler wrote: >I do not often post to the list and have only been on it for a little while. However, this is just an idea that I've come up with. It is not really well fleshed out yet, I'm just looking for an initial reaction. I really didn't like the idea of each sphere having its own ultra-powerful artifact that could make immortals. It kind of trivializes immortality on mystara. That was not the exact idea. I mean the NoS has been around for 4000 years and it has produced just one Immortal. I wouldn't call that trivial. And I don't think the other artifacts would be able to produce Immortals any easier than NoS. Just the other way, there was direct Old Ones intervention in the NoS construction (there must be, even Immortal have spent years trying to figure it out). The other artifacts are not ready and their building will be a major Immortal plot, that will probably leads to wars in the far future and, maybe, they won't be completed. Maybe the Oards are workers in the building of one such artifact. And, even with the artifacts completed, it won't be easy to achieve Immortality through them. Using the NoS is not easy and using the new artifacts will not be any easier. First, you'll have to discover how in a years long quest. Then, you will need the Immortal's who controls the artifact and the nation around it to allow you to use it. That will not trivialize immortality in any way. It will just open anither VERY difficult door to it. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:57:00 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Ryan Andrew Nestler wrote: >Hows this for an idea. What if after a few years or more have passed, the OLD Ones notice that entropic immortals ARE becoming too powerful a force on Mystara. And they don't like the way that the Nucleus is draining too much entropy from its surroundings on Mystara. Once again, the old ones decide to interfere and they modify the nucleus to draw an equal amount of power from each shere. This event could be the culmination of another WotI, with entropy and its many new minions battling the other spheres' forces. Tell me what you think of this. I'm especially interested in Bruce's comments. >I do not often post to the list and have only been on it for a little while. However, this is just an idea that I've come up with. It is not really well fleshed out yet, I'm just looking for an initial reaction. I really didn't like the idea of each sphere having its own ultra-powerful artifact that could make immortals. It kind of trivializes immortality on mystara. My personal feeling on this is that the artifact is left as is by the Old Ones. It is a test for the Immortals. If they can all work together and put aside their selfish interest they can fix the artifact to draw equally from all 5 spheres. Otherwise Entropy will rise in power to dominate the other spheres and the balance will swing back to an age of entropy like the way it was before the other 4 spheres battled entopy for dominance. (See the Gold Immortals Set and PC1 for more info). Kind of a cosmic "If you children can't learn to play together then you can't play any more." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:43:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >::sigh:: Yeah, one of those "I think I'll major in..." type-thing. I really enjoyed the classes though...also really makes thing interesting when plotting and schemeing for Mystara. ;) I know- I'm an anthro major, myself. :) >Hmm...I think I like the Amazon culture. I'll have to give it some thought. As for the Afridhi, I always believed they were assimilated or destroyed by Blackmoor as it got more powerful. Either way, I never thought that the Afridhi culture survived - one of the ones that Ka couldn't get to in time for Hollow World transplanting - and thus Zugzul disappeared because he couldn't get anymore followers. Ah well, just my thoughts. My theory on the Afridhi is that they were driven off by both internal division (gender wars- see DA4 about their men vs. women/Zug vs. Zul conflicts) as well as the more powerful Blackmoorian troops. Still survivors, but they would have fled back the way they originally came from. But, as you say, they're just my thoughts. :) >For the brief time I've spent on the continent, I too put the Sis'thik (or some other serpentine creatures) in the Aryptian Basin. I liked the 1014 almanac's ideas about the KPE finding Yuan-ti in the nearby area. It just fits the region for some reason. As for Izonda...I don't know, I'd have to really think about it and see what I can come up with. As for Izonda/Davania- our mutual thoughts on the Sis'thik, and the ideas for the Yuan-ti that Michael created, in addition to the known Lizard man and Troglodyte presence in Davania- maybe the lizard kin races were one of the major populations of the southern continent? They may be to Davania what humans are to Brun/Skothar. There are still other races present, but the lizard kin are more numerous; maybe having descended from early dinosaur creatures in Davania? To further extract, then, I'd say the lizard men of Brun (notably the Malpheggi) were early lizard colonists- the lizard equivalent of Thothia; before they were destroyed by Nithian plague. And the lizard kin races around Herath were early experiments on lizardmen slaves brought from the southern continent by the Aranean Herathians. What do you all say? >Yeah, that was me...I don't think the sand people would thrive all that well without access to Blackmoor technology. ::shrug:: Could be- I was just tossing out ideas. :) >True. The one problem I have is that we (myself included) seem to try and tie too much into what we know about the past. In other words, although it might make it more "Mystaran" by connecting it to some cryptic reference, it makes the world a very small place, so to speak, and doesn't give much room for "new blood". I'm not sure that makes sense even to me...if anyone understands, please let me know and explain it back to me. ;) I agree, to an extent. I do love tying the past together with the 'present', as it were (that anthro part of me), but I also feel that we shouldn't try to populate everything (at least not culturize/civilize everything). The way I see it, if we want to make a real world comparison, the northern continents are the "old world", whereas the southern continent is the "new world" and should be, for the most part, virgin territory, uncorrupted by man. As we begin to enter the age of exploration, which I'd argue that Mystara is in (save for a few setbacks, like the destruction of Alphatia), then we can begin to have the older cultures, etc, exploit these territories and begin to move towards expansion of their realms. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:50:21 -0400 From: Chris Frisby Subject: [Mystara] if you have time reply in person - --=====================_862015821==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was wanting to know if anyinfo was availible on a few immortals if your not sure what i want im sending a txt file with this please read it and give me some input. thanks - --=====================_862015821==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="immortals.txt" Game statistics : Celestial, Sphere of Entropy, level/classes AC , hp , HD ; Mv , #AT ; D AM ; Save . AL, WoA ; Str , Int , Wis , Dex , Con , Cha . Powers : Avatars Description: this is the inf i need for the following The Great One Diamond Opal Pearl if you don't know this inf. then could you give me suggestions on appropriate stats - --=====================_862015821==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" - -- Friz All computers wait at the same speed. - --=====================_862015821==_-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 03:45:26 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Demographics This is off topic . . . but, anyway . . . Cthulhudrew is an anthropology major, Mystaros is an anthro major, I am too (Delarius) . . . anybody else on this list an anthro major? Or are the three of us the only truly cool ones here? :) Also, I've noticed that quite a few posters on this list are not from the States . . . so where are y'all from? Just curious . . . Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:33:38 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft: the truth revealed Here's the direct answer from Steve Miller about the issue: it will be rather disappointing for those of you who wanted to see a Mystaran famous NPC in RL, but that's what we've got: >>The guy telling the news was quoting you as his reliable source, so now i ask u directly: is this only a rumor or something more similar to the truth? Will we have a new RL darklord from Mystara? And in this case, who is the chosen (cursed) one? << Yes and no. The "new" dark lord is an "old" dark lord for whom an origin has finally been provided when I expanded his description. He seemed like a Known World kind of character, and since I am a big Known World lover, I tied his expandded background to that world. I wanted there to a Mystaran domain since it was now an AD&D setting, but I didn't want to take any charcters from there, so I used an already existing RL character. The dark lord is the guy featured in "Ship of Horror." I forget his name right now -- Morgoroth? Steve Miller END QUOTE Satisfied? Well, to me he could have done something better, but hey: we're talking about Steve Miller, and i owe him the same worship i owe Bruce Heard (no irony here). Pity he's been fired... DM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:33:28 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres At 00.13 24/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Might there eventually be some sort of "war" between the NoS and the CoS? Or how will the CoS work- rely only on its own power source, and not the magical energy of Mystara? >Ooo! A Mystaran nuclear war! Great Rain of Fire: Take Two! Maybe we can get the planet tilted back the right way. ;) He he... already done. The aliens centered their atomic ray on the Nucleus and ka-blaam: bye bye Mystara! Now my players are working on Aelos to finish CM8 and prevent the oards to invent that atomic thingy that blew up Mystara (this is a better motivation than the one suggested in CM8) Don't despair: as long as there is time travel, there is hope! DM PS: oh, btw, one of my players has been transformed into an oard (they assimilate worlds....): guess how will he end up? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:28:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >This is off topic . . . but, anyway . . . >Cthulhudrew is an anthropology major, Mystaros is an anthro major, I am too (Delarius) . . . anybody else on this list an anthro major? I am actually taking a small course in anthropology myself at University. Its rather hard to combine with my military service (only 63 days left!) >Or are the three of us the only truly cool ones here? :) probably ;) >Also, I've noticed that quite a few posters on this list are not from the States . . . so where are y'all from? Just curious . . . Im from Norway, Trondheim to be specific. It is indicated by the .no at the end of my email adress. >Delarius Now lets get back to Mystara :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:36:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mounts On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 Bruce Heard wrote: >Aron writes: ><< so what do the people ride? Giant monkeys?? >> Nah. MONKEYS ride giant monkeys. Humans ride anything they can sit on! :) Are you indicating the existence of walking chairs and sofas here Bruce? :P Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:50:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Funny village On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: II know where you're coming from here! In my version of the Temple of Chaos of Great Hule, all the Immortals have been given "Hulean" names... God help me if anyone who understands Turkish actually reads them! (Example: Bagni Gullymaw is known as Yemekhershey to the Huleans, which means something like "He Who Eats Everything" in Turkish). When you are working from a phrase book, strange things can happen... Thats kinda fits Bagni I think. It is probably a coincidence, but Hule is a norwegian word meaning cave. Also in the Northern Reaches you have the Hardanger Mountains a norwegian Mountain Range and Tromso a norwegian city. I started wondering when I read "Massacre at Tromso" from WotI. :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:01:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Black Rock On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >>What is the Blackrock? >>From what Ive learned from previous postings, it is a strange magical rock that existed in the Blackmoor area. It has strange effects on magic and technology, which was the reason of the crashing of the FSS Beagle (the legendary spacecraft) >This is all more or less correct. The area that Blackmoor (the city and castle) was built in was very magical (more so than the rest of Mystara), due to the presence of the magical black "rock"; a layer of rock beneath and around the Blackmoor area. It had some weird magical properties that caused it to have strange effects on magic. What kind of effect? Is there any pattern? Could it be linked to one of the Spheres/Elements? Or is it just wild magic (something like bad magic points?) >The black rock wasn't in itself responsible for the Beagle's crash- it was the magical nature of Mystara, period. The Beagle's engines acted oddly in the highly magical realm of Blackmoor. Why would that happen? Was the Beagle also built from technomagic? Wasn't the black rock the reason for Blackmoor being highly magical? Or was that just a side effect? >>After the realm of blackmoor blew up causing the Great Rain of Fire (all which also might be linked to the blackrock) this mineral was spread all over mystara. >This part isn't canon, though it could conceivably be true. The black rock is part of the foundation of the Comeback Inn, so there is still some of it out there. Whether it still retains its strange properties is an academic question, as there isn't evidence either way to suggest whether it drew its power from its connection to the earth (my guess would be it was somehow related to the Worldshield's matter), or was magical on its own. Perhaps the antimagic in the core created some kind of polarization-effect making some areas more magical? What exactly is the Comeback Inn? From what I understand its from one of the blackmoor modules right? Those things are really hard to find these days... I know that not all of these questions have official answers, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:46:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Bruce Heard writes : << My guess is that at some point, when the whole *cosmic* cycle goes through, the Nucleus desintegrates. Then starts a new cycle, centering on the Chamber and the shadow elves... and more. The other Immortals would also attempt to construct such devices on their own, one for each sphere of activity. The question is... where, when, and by whom? I'm making a huge assumption here -- perhaps the eventual destruction of the Nucleus itself takes place when the Immortals of each sphere manage to create an equivalent device serving their purposes. Each of these new devices robs its powers from the old Glantrian Nucleus. When all devices are up and runing, the Nucleus is empty and finally disintegrates (ouch -- effect on Glantri!?). At this point, the Chamber inherits the goal to support the purposes of sphere of Energy. This is artifact is clearly indentifiable now. The others remain to be identified and located on Mystara. Thus this little game: (everyone interested gets to vote!) Where would you put the other artifacts? Who would be their unwitting caretakers? What would be their powers? What would be their drawbacks? This could include cultures in the Hollow World, even the Myoshiman rakastas.>> Patrick Writes: <> Thanks for these inspirational mails! Here are my thoghts. I like what Patrick suggests. This is a great opportunity to make less important areas more interesting. I think all the devices should be placed on surface mystara, since that would make it easier for the keepers of each device to interact with eachother. I just got some associations with TORG from West End games. Highlords fighting eachother over strange devices and trying to attain godhood. say darkness device (tam-tam-tum) anyone? I agree with Steve Wilson (or was that Chtulhudrew?) whent he says that most of Davania should remain uncorrupted by civilization. Thus I am inclined to suggest that the artifacts should be located on Brun, Skotar and the islands between them. Thought should be located in Morient (or possibly Myoshima, though I feel that Mystara isn't ready for too much interaction with the moon yet, depending on whats coming out of the MOrient/Myoshima-projects ofcourse) Eastern Philosphers, Its a cliche, but I like that. :) Matter should be placed in Rockhome. I think the Dwarves deserve one of those. It it probably Kagyar and Ka who are most involved in this project. The Dwarves have suffered much from the war with thge Shadowelves and I think they need one of these artifacts. Besides, Trees of life are cooler than Forges of Power. If located in HW, Nithia would probably be a good idea. Time or Entophy should be placed in Glantri. If the Nucleus desintegrates, Glantri will become like the brokenlands. If the Entophy device is placed here, it will become another dommain of Evil. (Poor Wendarians, being Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:59:51 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #55 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 14e88636d513c3f32aa3ef8c653ffbb4 located between Evil Glantri and Denagoth. Denagoth could be another place for the entrophy device, though I think I prefer Glantri. If the Time-device is placed here, Glantri will probably change rapidly into a nicer place. Time could otherwise be placed in the undersea kingdom, or perhaps on the savage coast? The only objection to all this is Rad. He would certainly not be left out of these projects. Depending on his state at the time. Rafiel might invite Rad to help him study the CoS though. I think all this should happen no earlier than AC 1050 though. By this time, Rad has regained Immortality and is possibly even a Hierarch. All the above is ofcourse IMHO. :) for the effects of the devices see my mail on th Spheres. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:57:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt Would the Aricans have any interractions with the matriarchs of Pelatan then? I enjoyed those Dragon-articles on Africa myself. Great work Steve. Izondia: I dont think there should be Sand people there. I dont like the idea of everyone migrating to other continents. The Sandpeople were interesting, but lets keep them on the plateau. Rather go with the lizard-beings here. Pelatan: I figured the amazones were decendants of the milenians of arypt, but I havent worked anyting out. I dont know how you explained the Afridhi getting to Pelatan, maybe they discovered a magical gate which they thought would lead them to paradise? Arypt: I remember reading something about a new Milenian empire rising in Arypt. Was that from the HW box? Im not sure. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:01:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Ryan Andrew Nestler wrote: >Hows this for an idea. What if after a few years or more have passed, the OLD Ones notice that entropic immortals ARE becoming too powerful a force on Mystara. And they don't like the way that the Nucleus is draining too much entropy from its surroundings on Mystara. Once again, the old ones decide to interfere and they modify the nucleus to draw an equal amount of power from each shere. This event could be the culmination of another WotI, with entropy and its many new minions battling the other spheres' forces. Tell me what you think of this. I'm especially interested in Bruce's comments. >I do not often post to the list and have only been on it for a little while. However, this is just an idea that I've come up with. It is not really well fleshed out yet, I'm just looking for an initial reaction. I really didn't like the idea of each sphere having its own ultra-powerful artifact that could make immortals. It kind of trivializes immortality on mystara. I dont think the Old Ones should be more involved than they already have been. I understand the problem with the trivialization you mention. At least there should be no more than one artifact of such sphere. Keep posting Ryan! :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:50:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >At 15.35 25/04/97 +0300, you wrote: >>Very good ideas. Like I said before, we should have this developed further in the next almanac. However, we need to establish whether Rad will "officially" be Immortal or not, because Mark of Amber can have different endings depending on how well the PCs do. Not that it would matter that much, Rad is pretty powerful even without his Immortal powers, but still. >I think it was "officially" decided that Rad returns as mortal, but with the chance of becoming Immortal again. It was the second ending of MoA IIRC. Lets say MoA is set in 1012. If Rad ends up as an Immortal, he remains passive for a few years, if not, he becomes immortal around 1015. I any of these cases he will be Immortal in 1015. The main difference will be this: If Rad has to regain immortality on his own, then he will need a patron, who will have great influence over him later. I suggest that Rafiel will sponsor him, thus making them great allies. This will be a good reason why Rafiel will let Rad study the CoS according to my other posting. >>Also, consider this scenario: Alphaks tells Prince Morphail about the Radiance and its powers, and Morphail approaches Rad with a suggestion: he will aid him against McGregor in return for ability to use the Radiance. This would allow Alphaks to indirectly affect the affairs of the Nucleus through his follower Morphail. How does this sound? >Good, but remember that Morphail, living so far from Glantri City, would be the one who benefits the less by using the Radiance. His powers would be somewhat limited (need to check Gaz3 on this). Thats true. I like your thoughts here, especially linking Aplhaks into the plot. He seemed to be left out of the game after the destruction of Alphatia. Thanatos is probably also working from behind the scenes. He always is... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:06:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Re: your mail On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Jason Buchen wrote: >I have a character named Jahova, and he calls him self the follower. Vania saved him from certain loss of a leg. From that point forward he has become quite the Vania follower he eats sleeps and breaths for Vania's causes. he wants to build a church in her name to show his appreciation for what Vania has done for him, not just any church. A floating church, A great feat for a character that dosnt have a clue as to using magic. This floating church will be high above the ground some where around Karameikos. Jahova plans to have shrines placed in every church that praises Vania. The shrines will take any true follower of Vania to the sacred church of the follower. In order to use these shrines you must know the prare of the follower this is what will activate the shrine and take them to the church of the follower. Jahova will tell only the high priests form the churches that follow Vania of the followers church and the followers prare so that they can pass it on to who they think is worthy of being a member of the church of the followers and there causes! >How do you feel about Jahova's plans do you think they are realistic or do you see any flaws or do you have thoughts to add please do I would like to here what you think of Jahovas plans! Its nice with characters with great goals. I might allow Jahove to accomplish at least parts of his plans if I was your DM. Depending on my mood ofcourse. The greatest problem would be to get members of other churches to allow the worship of Vania in their Temples. That would be next to impossible. Some Priest would become _very_ offended by such a suggestion. Wether the plans are realistic depends greatly on your DM... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:06:19 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Hi! >This is off topic . . . but, anyway . . . begin offtopic; >Also, I've noticed that quite a few posters on this list are not from the States . . . so where are y'all from? Just curious . . . I´m from Austria, that´s a little state in Middle Europe, south of Germany, north of Italy, east of Switzerland, and west of Hungary. I´m studying Maths,scientific and Maths&Physics for teaching. Any other information you could probably get from my home-page. (Address see the signature!) end offtopic; *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:38:04 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Crossbreeds ive been creating a civilization in davania which has a large number of creatures from various races who are slaves some races would breed with each other anyways but for some which dont normally mix they will be forced to if magic is needed it will be used this kingdom is experimenting with this to see what happpens im looking for information pertaining to humans, demihumans, and humanoids breeding with someone outside their race it seems that humans can mix with almost anything elves, dwarves, orcs, ogres, giants, etc.... i believe elves are limited to mixing with humans and dwarves gremlins can mix with any goblinoid (bugbears, goblins, hobgoblins) etc, etc, etc... is there any info out there on this? or have any of you created new crossbreeds for your own campaigns? - -Crip ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:49:25 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >>>Very good ideas. Like I said before, we should have this developed further >>>in the next almanac. However, we need to establish whether Rad will "officially" be Immortal or not, because Mark of Amber can have different >>>endings depending on how well the PCs do. Not that it would matter that >>>much, Rad is pretty powerful even without his Immortal powers, but still. >>I think it was "officially" decided that Rad returns as mortal, but with >>the chance of becoming Immortal again. It was the second ending of MoA IIRC. >Lets say MoA is set in 1012. If Rad ends up as an Immortal, he remains passive for a few years, if not, he becomes immortal around 1015. I any of >these cases he will be Immortal in 1015. The main difference will be this: >If Rad has to regain immortality on his own, then he will need a patron, who will have great influence over him later. I suggest that Rafiel will sponsor him, thus making them great allies. This will be a good reason why >Rafiel will let Rad study the CoS according to my other posting. IMC, Rafiel was trying behind the scenes to help my players succeed in MoA. Either way this turns out, I think it is reasonable to tie Rafiel and Rad even closer together. >>>Also, consider this scenario: Alphaks tells Prince Morphail about the Radiance and its powers, and Morphail approaches Rad with a suggestion: he >>>will aid him against McGregor in return for ability to use the Radiance. >>>This would allow Alphaks to indirectly affect the affairs of the Nucleus >>>through his follower Morphail. How does this sound? >>Good, but remember that Morphail, living so far from Glantri City, would be >>the one who benefits the less by using the Radiance. His powers would be >>somewhat limited (need to check Gaz3 on this). >Thats true. I like your thoughts here, especially linking Aplhaks into the >plot. He seemed to be left out of the game after the destruction of Alphatia. Thanatos is probably also working from behind the scenes. He always is... Hey, we could have a WotI brewing in the sphere of Entropy even as we speak! Alphaks supports Morphail. Hel could support McGregor. And Thanatos and Nyx could support Synn, Kol, Halzunthram, & friends. Atzanteotl and Loki (Bozdogan) have both greatly expanded their power near Glantri in the past few years. If Thanatos maintains a firm grip as reigning Hierarch, Hel will plot behind the scenes, encouraging those loyal to her to quest for immortality by means of the Radiance. Once McGregor reaches immortality and starts agitating, we have another WotI, only in Entropy instead of Energy! Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:51:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica In a message dated 97-04-25 22:57:39 EDT, you write: << I know- I'm an anthro major, myself. :) >> Got my B.A.; ABT on my Masters (never will finish though). Nice major to study, not a nice major if you want to make a living :( <> Hmmm... One thing I have been wondering about lately is where people have been placing Blackmoor, Thonia and the other nations mentioned in the DA series. I always thought that Blackmoor and Thonia were clearly placed on Skothar according to the HW world maps (though Blackmoor and Thonia were reversed, see below). I've heard of people placing Blackmoor on Brun, but never on Davania. What is the general concensus in the Mystara list, if there is such a thing :) As to my own history, Thonia was found on Skothar, about where the word "SKOTHAR" appears on the map. The sea above the word "Blackmoor" was the old Black Sea, with the channel to the Skandaharian Sea to the north. Blackmoor was found in the area around the Black Sea, with the High Hak, the Valley of the Ancients and the Eastern Hak seperating Blackmoor from the bulk of Thonia. The peninsula to the west (now part of Esterhold) consisted of the Plains of Hak and the original homelands of the Afridhi, high in the mountains. << As for Izonda/Davania... maybe the lizard kin races were one of the major populations of the southern continent? They may be to Davania what humans are to Brun/Skothar. There are still other races present, but the lizard kin are more numerous; maybe having descended from early dinosaur creatures in Davania? >> Exactly. In my history, the "Forest of Ka" was the last remnant of the vile Serpentine Empire, which was itself descended from the Carnifex Tyranny, ancient Aeons ago. The Lizard Men, Troglodytes and Yuan-Ti were servitor races created by the Serpentines during their long ages of rule (as were the Giants, Enduks and others). The Elves actually fit into this picture as well, as in my history, they are descended from a group of Yuan-Ti who were purged of their serpentine poisons by the Immortal Ordana, and culturally revamped by the Faerie Folk under the tutelage of Ordana. <> Yes, quite. Actually, in my history, the Lizard Men of the Malpheggi were the allies of Setu-Kha, the great bane of the early Nithian Empire. Setu-Kha (now the Immortal Set) had his own kingdom on the Isle of the Serpent (the "Kikianu Caldera" of GAZ 4), which was destroyed in the cataclysm of 1700 BC. The Lizard Men of Herath are descended from Lizard Men slaves traded to the Herathians by the Enduks when they settled there in 2000 BC. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:36:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: {Mystara] Axial Tilt (was Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres) In a message dated 97-04-24 03:37:55 EDT, sbwilson@earthlink.net (S.B. Wilson) writes: << Maybe we can get the planet tilted back the right way. ;) >> Could somebody please refresh my memory about this one? I vaguely recall somebody mentioning that Mystara is supposed to have no tilt to its axis, but I cannot recall the source. If it is true, it could have some very interesting implications. For example: Are the seasons in the southern hemisphere reversed as in our world, or does the entire planet go through winter at once? As was the case with the odd motions of Mystara's visible moon, the seasons on Mystara could provide a clue to yet another of Mystara's magical mysteries. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:41:55 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mounts At 14:35 25-04-97 -0400, TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: IIn a message dated 97-04-25 03:47:10 EDT, Aron writes: ><< so what do the people ride? Giant monkeys?? >> >Nah. MONKEYS ride giant monkeys. Humans ride anything they can sit on! :) >Bruce Heard Hehe...they are right. :) (I wouldn't want to ride on a monkey, gimme a dragon or something else...) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:47:22 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 03:45 AM 4/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >Cthulhudrew is an anthropology major, Mystaros is an anthro major, I am too (Delarius) . . . anybody else on this list an anthro major? I'm not an anthro major, but was a cognitive science major, and so incorporated anthropology into my studies. My anthro background is more with sociolingistics, ethnosemantics, and distributed cognition than most of the stuff that is brought to bear on this list, but I still claim a small piece of the coolness pie as a result! ;) / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:43:14 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Delarius: At 03:45 AM 4/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >This is off topic . . . but, anyway . . . You're right, but sometimes an off topic thread can be interesting. >Cthulhudrew is an anthropology major, Mystaros is an anthro major, I am too (Delarius) . . . anybody else on this list an anthro major? >Or are the three of us the only truly cool ones here? :) I might be 'cool': I have a BA in "Classical Studies" (History, Literature, Arts, Arcitechture and Archaeology of Ancient Rome and Greece) from the University of British Columbia. However, I am just completing my final semester of a BASc in Computer Engineering at Simon Fraser University. >Also, I've noticed that quite a few posters on this list are not from the States . . . so where are y'all from? Just curious . . . Both the Universities and myself are in British Columbia, Canada. UBC is in the city of Vancouver, and I used to live there too. SFU is in the city of Burnaby (just east of Vancouver) and thats where I live now. :-) And, to throw some legitimate Mystara stuff in here: Is there any region of Mystara which seems to based on the Irish/Welsh/Scotish/Celtic societies? (Other than that one place in Galantri...) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #55 **************************** Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:14:08 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #56 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 327388839ba658fdc444b307e128da38 mystara-digest Sunday, April 27 1997 Volume 02 : Number 056 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:49:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Hi, I am a History/Political Science student at Western Washington University. Washington is that little state up in the Northwest corner of the United States. -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:05:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds In a message dated 97-04-26 15:14:11 EDT, CRlPTONITE@aol.com writes: << i believe elves are limited to mixing with humans and dwarves gremlins can mix with any goblinoid (bugbears, goblins, hobgoblins) etc, etc, etc... is there any info out there on this? or have any of you created new crossbreeds for your own campaigns? >> Elves may not be so limited -- the N'djatwa are elf/ogre hybrids, and it seems quite likely that those abandoned Shadow Elf babies brought up by goblinoids in the Broken Lands are able to interbreed with the various goblinoid races. So I would suggest that, barring extreme size differences (as between a Halfling and a Hill Giant, for example) or other obvious incompatibilities, all humans, demi-humans, goblinoids, giants, and other humanoids can interbreed freely. However, most such hybrids would be extremely rare, and in any case none should have any "munchkin" appeal. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:13:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: WotC/TSR staff (was [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft) In a message dated 97-04-26 06:10:03 EDT, dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it (DM) writes: << Satisfied? Well, to me he could have done something better, but hey: we're talking about Steve Miller, and i owe him the same worship i owe Bruce Heard (no irony here). Pity he's been fired... >> Who was fired -- Steve Miller or Bruce Heard? The last I heard, WotC wasn't firing any of the creative types -- although they were wanting them to move out to Washington, and I am not sure what happens to those who don't want to move. Can anyone affected give us more news? It would truly be a great loss if WotC does not keep Bruce Heard on, or at least let him go with a generous agreement for future freelance work -- Mystara would just never be the same without him. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:32:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >PS: oh, btw, one of my players has been transformed into an oard (they assimilate worlds....): guess how will he end up? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:33:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >PS: oh, btw, one of my players has been transformed into an oard (they assimilate worlds....): guess how will he end up? [Sorry- misfired that last one before I wrote anything... :( ] Let me guess- he has been assimilated, right? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:40:30 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Izondia: I dont think there should be Sand people there. I dont like the idea of everyone migrating to other continents. The Sandpeople were interesting, but lets keep them on the plateau. Rather go with the lizard-beings here. I agree with the lizardmen/saurian idea. I just sort of tossed out the Sand People idea, but on reflection, I rather prefer the thought of reptile beings on Davania. The Sand People aren't even carbon based... >Pelatan: I figured the amazones were decendants of the milenians of arypt, but I havent worked anyting out. I dont know how you explained the Afridhi getting to Pelatan, maybe they discovered a magical gate which they thought would lead them to paradise? Not to dredge up the "Where is Blackmoor?" issue again, but as far as I'm concerned, Blackmoor was on Brun, near Hyborea (slightly north of Hule). Hence, the Afridhi came from the area near to the (current day) Arm of the Immortals (then known as the Goblin Kush), and retreated back that way when they were defeated in the days of early Blackmoor. After the GRoF, some migrated south to Davania, others migrated to Zyxl. But again, that's just as far as I'm concerned... >Arypt: I remember reading something about a new Milenian empire rising in Arypt. Was that from the HW box? Im not sure. I don't know where you might have heard this. There are remnants of the Milenian Empire on Davania, scattered city-states, but as far as I know, Arypt is now simply a desert, the Aryptian Basin. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 02:57:53 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: {Mystara] Axial Tilt (was Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres) Hi! >As was the case with the odd motions of Mystara's visible moon, the seasons on Mystara could provide a clue to yet another of Mystara's magical mysteries. Hmm, it seems that I´ve missed something. How does the Mmoon move odd? And what magical mystery is behind that? *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:53:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Legitimate stuff (Was: [Mystara] Demographics) On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >And, to throw some legitimate Mystara stuff in here: Is there any region of Mystara which seems to based on the Irish/Welsh/Scotish/Celtic societies? (Other than that one place in Galantri...) A couple of places on the Isle of Dawn- Caerdwicca, Redstone, can't think of any others offhand- have names that seem to come from Irish and/or Scottish place names (Redstone- Irish, Caerdwicca- Scottish). Mystaros posted an interesting theory on this not too long ago. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:58:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >Elves may not be so limited -- the N'djatwa are elf/ogre hybrids, and it seems quite likely that those abandoned Shadow Elf babies brought up by goblinoids in the Broken Lands are able to interbreed with the various goblinoid races. As far as the N'djatwa go, the elf/ogre crossbreeding was made possible by an artifact that the two races discovered and bled on... according to their history as we know it. In principle, I can see where it might be possible that the SE could interbreed with the humanoids of the BL, though (other than Kol's entry in G:KoM, which is a debatable source) there is no evidence for it. It could just as easily be that those SE are sterile, or just incapable of interbreeding. I would probably suggest that orcs and elves, at least, can interbreed, due to the numerous connections between the two races that are alluded to in many places (GAZ5 and 10, for example). Also, note that the humanoid races can interbreed amongst themselves, so they don't seem to be terribly genetically incompatible with anyone. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 18:42:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Black Rock On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >>This is all more or less correct. The area that Blackmoor (the city and castle) was built in was very magical (more so than the rest of Mystara), due to the presence of the magical black "rock"; a layer of rock beneath and around the Blackmoor area. It had some weird magical properties that caused it to have strange effects on magic. >What kind of effect? Is there any pattern? Could it be linked to one of the Spheres/Elements? Or is it just wild magic (something like bad magic points?) It is never mentioned, really, what it does. It seems to be related to the superabundance of monsters in the catacombs beneath the castle of Blackmoor, and it made the massive magical enchantments on the Comeback Inn possible (or at least facilitated them). >>The black rock wasn't in itself responsible for the Beagle's crash- it was the magical nature of Mystara, period. The Beagle's engines acted oddly in the highly magical realm of Blackmoor. >Why would that happen? Was the Beagle also built from technomagic? Wasn't the black rock the reason for Blackmoor being highly magical? Or was that just a side effect? The technology of the Beagle was seemingly incompatible with magic. There isn't any detailed explanation given of the effects. Just that the Beagle was journeying through Mystaraspace, noted the presence of intelligent life on the planet, went to investigate, and suddenly everything went nuts, forcing them to crash land. >What exactly is the Comeback Inn? From what I understand its from one of the blackmoor modules right? Those things are really hard to find these days... Try the Dragon's Trove (http://www.dragontrove.com). You can find most, if not all, of the DA modules there. As for the Comeback Inn, it's a highly magical inn that happens to contain a rift in the space-time continuum in the basement. It's powers on the level of an artifact, but it isn't one. (Though it does, arguably, have it's negative effects on users. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 18:36:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >Got my B.A.; ABT on my Masters (never will finish though). Nice major to study, not a nice major if you want to make a living :( I hear you. I'm going into film, myself... >Hmmm... One thing I have been wondering about lately is where people have been placing Blackmoor, Thonia and the other nations mentioned in the DA series. I always thought that Blackmoor and Thonia were clearly placed on Skothar according to the HW world maps (though Blackmoor and Thonia were reversed, see below). I've heard of people placing Blackmoor on Brun, but never on Davania. What is the general concensus in the Mystara list, if there is such a thing :) It's split right down the middle. Skothar vs. Brun. To my knowledge, I've never heard of anyone placing it on Davania, either. >Exactly. In my history, the "Forest of Ka" was the last remnant of the vile Serpentine Empire, which was itself descended from the Carnifex Tyranny, ancient Aeons ago. The Lizard Men, Troglodytes and Yuan-Ti were servitor races created by the Serpentines during their long ages of rule (as were the Giants, Enduks and others). The Elves actually fit into this picture as well, as in my history, they are descended from a group of Yuan-Ti who were purged of their serpentine poisons by the Immortal Ordana, and culturally revamped by the Faerie Folk under the tutelage of Ordana. Interesting. I hadn't thought to involve the Carnifex (truth be told, I'd more or less forgotten about them entirely). >Yes, quite. Actually, in my history, the Lizard Men of the Malpheggi were the allies of Setu-Kha, the great bane of the early Nithian Empire. Setu-Kha (now the Immortal Set) had his own kingdom on the Isle of the Serpent (the "Kikianu Caldera" of GAZ 4), which was destroyed in the cataclysm of 1700 BC. The Lizard Men of Herath are descended from Lizard Men slaves traded to the Herathians by the Enduks when they settled there in 2000 BC. I'll have to check that GAZ 4 reference; I confess, there's another one that slipped by me. Sounds interesting. I was thinking of creating a Set-like Immortal as well; probably something more like the Serpent Old One in Call of Cthulhu, who was going to be the basis for the Manacapuru worship. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:31:28 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds At 07:05 PM 4/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-26 15:14:11 EDT, CRlPTONITE@aol.com writes: ><< i believe elves are limited to mixing with humans and dwarves ggremlins can mix with any goblinoid (bugbears, goblins, hobgoblins) etc, etc, etc... >is there any info out there on this? >or have any of you created new crossbreeds for your own campaigns? >> >Elves may not be so limited -- the N'djatwa are elf/ogre hybrids, and it seems >quite likely that those abandoned Shadow Elf babies brought up by goblinoids in the Broken Lands are able to interbreed with the various goblinoid races. So I would suggest that, barring extreme size differences (as between a Halfling and a Hill Giant, for example) or other obvious incompatibilities, all humans, demi-humans, goblinoids, giants, and other humanoids can interbreed freely. However, most such hybrids would be extremely rare, and in any case none should have any "munchkin" appeal. well, both muls (human/dwarves) and half-giants are detailed in the Dark Sun campaign. Muls are the children of one human and one dwarf, but they are sterile and cannot reproduce. Half-giants were magically created long ago by the sorceror-kings and are now a seperate race. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:56:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: WotC/TSR staff (was [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft) In a message dated 97-04-26 20:50:31 EDT, you write: << Who was fired -- Steve Miller or Bruce Heard? >> Steve Miller, even before the real big shakeups started... sort of got caught in the first volley... I understand he's still on AOL under the name Nuelow, or something like that... Bruce is still there, at least, he was at the time of his last post... no telling what can happen with WotC... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:53:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-26 18:17:45 EDT, you write: << And, to throw some legitimate Mystara stuff in here: Is there any region of Mystara which seems to based on the Irish/Welsh/Scotish/Celtic societies? (Other than that one place in Galantri...) >> Well, Officially there is the Principality of Klantyre in Glantri (Scots), the Hinterlanders of Davania (which are given a "Celtic" feel in DotE), the peoples of Caerdwicca seem to be a mix of Scots and Norse, and the Robrenn of the Savage Coast are quite naturally Gaulish. With the exception of Robrenn, there is little or no cultural detail to these peoples. I have expanded the list of "Celtic" peoples in my own Mystara. First there are the Dunael, the native population of the Kingdom of Dunadale; these peoples are British in nature, as in pre-Hengist and Horsa (with a definite Arthurian feel). Then there are the Aran folk of the Province of Redstone (Irish). The Caerda of the Shadow Coast are definitely Scots, with a dash of Norse to boot. The Hinterlanders, whom I have named the Kymrae, are Welsh/Cimmerians (as in Conan, from the Hyborean age of REH). There are numerous descendants of Aran and Dunael expatriates found in Darokin, the result of lots of border changes between Thyatis and Alphatia. The Asieri of the Great Escarpment are Picts, after a fashion. And then there are the various tribes related to the Robrenn, still found in the Midlands north of Great Hule. I was actually working on an article detailing the History of the Isle of Dawn just today, and as this is the history of the Dunael, Aran and Caerda, it might be of interest to those who would like to know more about these peoples. So again, I ask: Can I attach a file to posts that I mail to the Mystara List? I'm still kind of new to this list stuff, so please, help... :) Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 21:25:11 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >This is off topic . . . but, anyway . . . >Also, I've noticed that quite a few posters on this list are not from the States . . . so where are y'all from? Just curious . . .^^^^^^^^^^ >Delarius This is off topic too... I'm from the Republic.... (using your logic!)... Remember: USA it's not the only country in america, so you didn't have rights to say sentences like "President of America"... and "The States" it's so insignificant like "The Republic" or "The Reign" or "The Country"... Ps: I'm from ARGENTINA... - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:15:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt In a message dated 97-04-26 21:51:05 EDT, you write: << Not to dredge up the "Where is Blackmoor?" issue again, >> But here I go. I'm hardly one to go in for Canon, as anyone from AOL can attest, but... the Brun Theory as per the site of ancient Blackmoor was an unfortunate misunderstanding on the part of an early chronicler, who placed the "Comeback Inn" in the Broken Lands, thus associating Brun with Blackmoor. The nature of later archaeological finds, however, definitely locate the ancient Oltec and Azcan Empires very near this same site, and as the Thonian Empire and the Kingdom of Blackmoor were seperated from these peoples by such a distance that they "...do not have any communication with Blackmoor", yet Blackmoor "...conducts war and intermittent trade with the southern elves, at the other end of the world". I found it difficult to believe that Blackmoor and the Oltecs would be found in such close proximity (about the distance from Chicago to New Orleans) without some form of interaction. The answer, of course, is that Blackmoor was not on Brun, it was rather found on Skothar (as seen in the maps provided with the Hollow World set). Nearly all evidence of Blackmoor was destroyed in the GRoF, and thus several cultures have posited different places for it's origin, each for reasons of its own design. For a RW example, there were some Russians who solidly claimed that the fabled Isle of Atlantis was actually in Russia! I personally chalk up the inclusion of the Comeback Inn and the reference to Blackmoor having been on Brun to the lck of definite knowledge of the geography and history of Mystara at the time of the development of the DA series; that series as well as the Karameikos gazetteer both placed the GRoF at 2000 BC, rather than the earlier time of 3000 BC. Later developments moved the date definitely back to 3000 BC, just as Blackmoor was moved from Brun to Skothar. Naturally, whether you use the earlier interpretation or the latter is entirely up to you; whatever works for your campaign is fine. I'm just saying that if you ARE claiming to be dealing in Canon, at least use the most recent references... To each their own, I say... Mystaros BTW, as this apparently was an issue in the past, I ask again, what was the concensus?... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 21:36:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:14:08 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #56 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 327388839ba658fdc444b307e128da38 Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-26 21:51:05 EDT, you write: ><< Not to dredge up the "Where is Blackmoor?" issue again, >> >But here I go. I'm hardly one to go in for Canon, as anyone from AOL can attest, but... the Brun Theory as per the site of ancient Blackmoor was an unfortunate misunderstanding on the part of an early chronicler, who placed the "Comeback Inn" in the Broken Lands, thus associating Brun with Blackmoor. I actually take the opposite route, and say the location of Blackmoor on Skothar was the result of a mistake on the part of a later chronicler (namely, Aaron Allston; which isn't to say he hasn't done some good work in the past). But see later... >Naturally, whether you use the earlier interpretation or the latter is entirely up to you; whatever works for your campaign is fine. I'm just saying that if you ARE claiming to be dealing in Canon, at least use the most recent references... While this is the standard TSR definition of canon, I daresay sometimes they drop the ball on this issue, as well. >BTW, as this apparently was an issue in the past, I ask again, what was the concensus?... We never actually took a vote, though the discussions (two I can recall, offhand) got a bit heated at times. The issue was just generally dropped, as we all had to sort of agree to disagree about it. It seemed to be a split right down the middle on the Skothar vs. Brun issue. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:04:10 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >I might be 'cool': I have a BA in "Classical Studies" (History, Literature, >Arts, Arcitechture and Archaeology of Ancient Rome and Greece) from the University of British Columbia. Wow! I'm studying (currently anyways :/ ) Classical Studies at Univ. of Washington in Seattle. I also happen to live in Renton, Washington where Wizards of the Coast is located. If TSR moves out here, I'd welcome ya with a smile. :) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:01:23 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: {Mystara] Axial Tilt (was Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres) >Could somebody please refresh my memory about this one? I vaguely recall somebody mentioning that Mystara is supposed to have no tilt to its axis, but I cannot recall the source. If it is true, it could have some very interesting implications. For example: Are the seasons in the southern hemisphere reversed as in our world, or does the entire planet go through winter at once? As was the case with the odd motions of Mystara's visible moon, the seasons on Mystara could provide a clue to yet another of Mystara's magical mysteries. I can't remember the exact reference, but Mystara has no axial tilt. Therefore, we can assume (using the infamous Transitive Law of Assumption - ie. if A=B and B=C, A=D - you just assume C=D ::grin::) that the whole planet is in summer or winter all at once as the planet moves closer and farther from the sun in its orbit. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:04:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt In a message dated 97-04-27 00:20:52 EDT, Mystaros@aol.com writes: << But here I go. I'm hardly one to go in for Canon, as anyone from AOL can attest, but... the Brun Theory as per the site of ancient Blackmoor was an unfortunate misunderstanding on the part of an early chronicler, who placed the "Comeback Inn" in the Broken Lands, thus associating Brun with Blackmoor. >> As of AC 1000, the Comeback Inn's location does appear to be in the Broken Lands (as per the Blackmoor modules) -- and the engine of the Beagle (aka the "Nucleus of the Spheres") is located underneath Glantri City. While both of these sites are on the continent of Brun, that does not mean that either of these items was in its present location during the Blackmoor era. I think the "canonical" solution was that both of these items were located in ancient Blackmoor (northern Skothar) prior to the Great Rain of Fire but that they were moved to their present location either by the glaciers of the Ice Age that followed or by direct Immortal action. If glaciers are responsible, then it is likely that Blackmoor artifacts are scattered (and deeply buried) all over Brun and northern Skothar. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:04:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: {Mystara] Axial Tilt (was Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres) In a message dated 97-04-26 22:20:15 EDT, a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at (Peter Balazs) writes: << Hmm, it seems that I´ve missed something. How does the Mmoon move odd? And what magical mystery is behind that? >> Well -- Earth's Moon shines by light reflected from the Sun. As a result, the full moon occurs when the Moon is approximately on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun. Thus, the full moon should rise within an hour or two of sunset and set within an hour or two of sunrise. But if you check the data given in one of the trail maps and confirmed by the timing of a Wizards' duel in Glantri in one of the PWAs, you will see that it is possible for the Mystaran full moon to rise in the early morning. The explanation that I came up with for this phenomenon involves distortions of light in space by Mystara's invisible moon. From the cycle that the visible moon follows we can infer the length of time that the invisible moon requires to circle Mystara -- three Mystaran months. By now many Mystarans are becoming suspicious about this phenomenon, because there are two sources of clues that could tip them off: 1) Prince Haldemar's report of visiting the invisible moon, and 2) Observations of people who have visited worlds on other planes. Either observation alone might give somebody the idea, but anyone who manages to learn both of these "facts" could piece the whole thing together. In a contribution to a "net-zine", I suggested that Terari did in fact reach this conclusion. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:12:37 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica >>Hmmm... One thing I have been wondering about lately is where people have been placing Blackmoor, Thonia and the other nations mentioned in the DA series. I always thought that Blackmoor and Thonia were clearly placed on Skothar according to the HW world maps (though Blackmoor and Thonia were reversed, see below). I've heard of people placing Blackmoor on Brun, but never on Davania. What is the general concensus in the Mystara list, if there >>is such a thing :) Actually, I put Blackmoor BETWEEN Brun and Skothar. During the Great Rain of Fire, the continents split right through the middle of the Blackmoor Empire - thus the plausability of having the Comeback Inn on Brun while having Blackmoor "trinkets" on Skothar. I'm still working on where I want to put Hyborea in my campaign. I'm using a Forgotten Realms accessory (Blasphemy, I know, I know...sigh) to help me with it - the Great Glacier. It's actually has some great ideas in it. >>Exactly. In my history, the "Forest of Ka" was the last remnant of the vile Serpentine Empire, which was itself descended from the Carnifex Tyranny, ancient Aeons ago. The Lizard Men, Troglodytes and Yuan-Ti were servitor races created by the Serpentines during their long ages of rule (as were the >>Giants, Enduks and others). The Elves actually fit into this picture as well, >>as in my history, they are descended from a group of Yuan-Ti who were purged >>of their serpentine poisons by the Immortal Ordana, and culturally revamped by the Faerie Folk under the tutelage of Ordana. >Interesting. I hadn't thought to involve the Carnifex (truth be told, I'd more or less forgotten about them entirely). Ooo, interesting idea! I'll have to look more into this...but first, can someone give me some info on Carnifex? The name just doesn't ring a bell. Is it something from the mailing list? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:26:17 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? Since there seems to be a lot of talk about lizard-ish cultures in Davania, let me bounce an idea out there. In the Dragonlord trilogy books, the Council of Dragons was up in Norwold. I always thought that it was a sort of regional council. I place the Draconic Council of Mystara in the large range of mountain in the middle of Davania (Ice Peaks I think...the name eludes me right now). I've been combining what I read in the Dragonlord books with the Council of Wyrms boxed set and the FR Draconomicon. Anyway, now for my whole reason for saying this: What do you all think about this? Is there some way to connect this with the Carnifex Tyranny? I know nothing about the Carnifex, so I'm asking in complete ignorance... :/ Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:26:17 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? Since there seems to be a lot of talk about lizard-ish cultures in Davania, let me bounce an idea out there. In the Dragonlord trilogy books, the Council of Dragons was up in Norwold. I always thought that it was a sort of regional council. I place the Draconic Council of Mystara in the large range of mountain in the middle of Davania (Ice Peaks I think...the name eludes me right now). I've been combining what I read in the Dragonlord books with the Council of Wyrms boxed set and the FR Draconomicon. Anyway, now for my whole reason for saying this: What do you all think about this? Is there some way to connect this with the Carnifex Tyranny? I know nothing about the Carnifex, so I'm asking in complete ignorance... :/ Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:04:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: {Mystara] Axial Tilt (was Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres) In a message dated 97-04-26 22:20:15 EDT, a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at (Peter Balazs) writes: << Hmm, it seems that I´ve missed something. How does the Mmoon move odd? And what magical mystery is behind that? >> Well -- Earth's Moon shines by light reflected from the Sun. As a result, the full moon occurs when the Moon is approximately on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun. Thus, the full moon should rise within an hour or two of sunset and set within an hour or two of sunrise. But if you check the data given in one of the trail maps and confirmed by the timing of a Wizards' duel in Glantri in one of the PWAs, you will see that it is possible for the Mystaran full moon to rise in the early morning. The explanation that I came up with for this phenomenon involves distortions of light in space by Mystara's invisible moon. From the cycle that the visible moon follows we can infer the length of time that the invisible moon requires to circle Mystara -- three Mystaran months. By now many Mystarans are becoming suspicious about this phenomenon, because there are two sources of clues that could tip them off: 1) Prince Haldemar's report of visiting the invisible moon, and 2) Observations of people who have visited worlds on other planes. Either observation alone might give somebody the idea, but anyone who manages to learn both of these "facts" could piece the whole thing together. In a contribution to a "net-zine", I suggested that Terari did in fact reach this conclusion. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:12:37 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica >>Hmmm... One thing I have been wondering about lately is where people have been placing Blackmoor, Thonia and the other nations mentioned in the DA series. I always thought that Blackmoor and Thonia were clearly placed on Skothar according to the HW world maps (though Blackmoor and Thonia were reversed, see below). I've heard of people placing Blackmoor on Brun, but never on Davania. What is the general concensus in the Mystara list, if there >>is such a thing :) Actually, I put Blackmoor BETWEEN Brun and Skothar. During the Great Rain of Fire, the continents split right through the middle of the Blackmoor Empire - thus the plausability of having the Comeback Inn on Brun while having Blackmoor "trinkets" on Skothar. I'm still working on where I want to put Hyborea in my campaign. I'm using a Forgotten Realms accessory (Blasphemy, I know, I know...sigh) to help me with it - the Great Glacier. It's actually has some great ideas in it. >>Exactly. In my history, the "Forest of Ka" was the last remnant of the vile Serpentine Empire, which was itself descended from the Carnifex Tyranny, ancient Aeons ago. The Lizard Men, Troglodytes and Yuan-Ti were servitor races created by the Serpentines during their long ages of rule (as were the >>Giants, Enduks and others). The Elves actually fit into this picture as well, >>as in my history, they are descended from a group of Yuan-Ti who were purged >>of their serpentine poisons by the Immortal Ordana, and culturally revamped by the Faerie Folk under the tutelage of Ordana. >Interesting. I hadn't thought to involve the Carnifex (truth be told, I'd more or less forgotten about them entirely). Ooo, interesting idea! I'll have to look more into this...but first, can someone give me some info on Carnifex? The name just doesn't ring a bell. Is it something from the mailing list? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:50:42 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Funny village On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: ><< In an old Dragon magazine (180-something), in Known World Grimoire, Bruce HHeard wrote that since Mystaran place names were selected from real world names and then changed a bit, they ended up with a village called "goat droppings". Does anyone know which village is that? Bruce? C'mon, tell us, we won't laugh at you! ;) >> >Can you paste the exact quote -- I remember this statement (vaguely), although I wonder if there *really* is such a village name. I think it said something like "some of the names may end up meaning something like goat-droppings". An accidental result of the (often ignorant and chaotic) manipulation of existing foreign words could certainly cause this. It was in Dragon #189 (Jan 1993), Known World Grimoire, responses to letters (pp. 41-42): "... Your DM might shamelessly tweak what look like name roots, preserving the same syllable patterns. That's how we ended up with a village in Mystara called 'goat dropping'! (I won't tell which one.)" So, this implies, that there really IS a village with that name. So which one is it? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:18:57 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >This is off topic . . . but, anyway . . . >Cthulhudrew is an anthropology major, Mystaros is an anthro major, I am too (Delarius) . . . anybody else on this list an anthro major? >Or are the three of us the only truly cool ones here? :) I am going to be an MBA (Master of Business). That's cool, too. ;) >Also, I've noticed that quite a few posters on this list are not from the States . . . so where are y'all from? Just curious . . . I'm Russian, but I live in Finland. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:21:37 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Funny village On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Thats kinda fits Bagni I think. It is probably a coincidence, but Hule is a norwegian word meaning cave. Also in the Northern Reaches you have the Hardanger Mountains a norwegian Mountain Range and Tromso a norwegian city. >I started wondering when I read "Massacre at Tromso" from WotI. :) Hey, Sundsvall is a city in Sweden! ;) Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:26:35 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Lets say MoA is set in 1012. If Rad ends up as an Immortal, he remains passive for a few years, if not, he becomes immortal around 1015. I any of these cases he will be Immortal in 1015. The main difference will be this: If Rad has to regain immortality on his own, then he will need a patron, who will have great influence over him later. I suggest that Rafiel will sponsor him, thus making them great allies. This will be a good reason why Rafiel will let Rad study the CoS according to my other posting. Couldn't Rad just use the Radiance to make himself Immortal again? At least if the spell still works. And I think Rad and Rafiel are already allies since WotI. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:16:34 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 10:04 PM 4/26/97 -0700, you wrote: >>I might be 'cool': I have a BA in "Classical Studies" (History, LLiterature, >>Arts, Arcitechture and Archaeology of Ancient Rome and Greece) from the University of British Columbia. >Wow! I'm studying (currently anyways :/ ) Classical Studies at Univ. of Washington in Seattle. I also happen to live in Renton, Washington where Wizards of the Coast is located. If TSR moves out here, I'd welcome ya with a smile. :) >Steve well, I feel like I must pipe up for any of the NON-anthropology majors out there. Apparently, there are less than I thought. I, for one, am studying civil engineering (graduating in 2 weeks). Aron Reif areif@vt.edu (feeling much the minority now...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 13:24:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Aron Reif pontificated: >well, I feel like I must pipe up for any of the NON-anthropology majors out there. Apparently, there are less than I thought. I, for one, am studying civil engineering (graduating in 2 weeks). I'm an uncool, boring one like you. BS in chemical engineering and working on a MS of material science right now. I always thought many role-players are engineers, I guess I was wrong. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 13:43:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics I am another engineer -- software systems, to be precise. My degree is in math/computer science. However, I am fairly well read in the "soft" sciences. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:37:21 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Formatted Almanacs >>BTW: I've converted the Almanac in .doc format, anyone interested? Incidentally I have also converted the Almanac into a nicer format, but mine is WordPerfect 6.0. It looks really nice. Is anyone interested? Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #56 **************************** Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:15:27 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #57 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, April 28 1997 Volume 02 : Number 057 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:05:12 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 13.24 27/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >Aron Reif pontificated: >>well, I feel like I must pipe up for any of the NON-anthropology majors out there. Apparently, there are less than I thought. I, for one, am studying civil engineering (graduating in 2 weeks). >I'm an uncool, boring one like you. BS in chemical engineering and working on a MS of material science right now. I always thought many role-players are engineers, I guess I was wrong. Reinforcements are coming! I'm a student of Aerospace Enginnering and I confirm your idea that many role-players are enginners. BTW: I'm Italian and I live in a (very) nice little town named Lucca. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:47:14 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics I am Greek,from Athens and I study medicine in Bulgaria. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:52:24 +1000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au Subject: [Mystara] Re: The B place was Re: Arica, Izondia and Arypt >><< Not to dredge up the "Where is Blackmoor?" issue again, >> >>But here I go. I'm hardly one to go in for Canon, as anyone from AOL can attest, but... the Brun Theory as per the site of ancient Blackmoor was an unfortunate misunderstanding on the part of an early chronicler, who placed the "Comeback Inn" in the Broken Lands, thus associating Brun with Blackmoor. >I actually take the opposite route, and say the location of Blackmoor on Skothar was the result of a mistake on the part of a later chronicler (namely, Aaron Allston; which isn't to say he hasn't done some good work in the past). But see later... >>Naturally, whether you use the earlier interpretation or the latter is entirely up to you; whatever works for your campaign is fine. I'm just saying that if you ARE claiming to be dealing in Canon, at least use the most recent references... >While this is the standard TSR definition of canon, I daresay sometimes they drop the ball on this issue, as well. I directly asked Bruce the question of where Blackmoor was as far as canon is concerned and he answered >Blackmoor -- the travelling legend. If there were archaeologist on Mystara, they would have a devil of time figuring where the darn place was really located. Officially, it's supposed to be up there by the Thonian Marches. Unfortunately, conflicting info has crept into several products, getting in the way of the Thonian theory. The best thing is to assume evidence of Blackmoor's presence elsewhere is the result of later colonizations and outposts. Other communities were also magically displaced (such as a certain ancient tavern in the Broken Lands of the Known World). >Definitely a messy development of the World of Mystara! :) So officially the answer is Skothar (which is annoying for a Brun advocate). Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:18:06 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >Reinforcements are coming! I'm a student of Aerospace Enginnering and I confirm your idea that many role-players are enginners. BTW: I'm Italian and I live in a (very) nice little town named Lucca. Talking about engineers, I am in a related field. I am a PhD in Physics, currently working in my postdoctorate researches. I live in Brazil, in Sao Paulo to be more precise. Andre Martins ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:52:01 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: TThe Caerda of the Shadow Coast are definitely Scots, with a dash of Norse to boot. Sound like Orcadians to me! :-) >I was actually working on an article detailing the History of the Isle of Dawn just today, and as this is the history of the Dunael, Aran and Caerda, it might be of interest to those who would like to know more about these peoples. So again, I ask: Can I attach a file to posts that I mail to the Mystara List? I'm still kind of new to this list stuff, so please, help... I'm a bit new too, but as far as I am concerned you can post away. And that goes for everyone willing to share their extensions and expansions of the "official" version of Mystara. I love reading them, even if I don't use some (or even any) of the stuff in them. Besides, they can provide quite handy ideas for your own campaign. So that's a yes. :-) BTW, is there an official list policy on attachments? Thorfinn. (The Norse Scot ;-) ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:35:39 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: AAlso, I've noticed that quite a few posters on this list are not from the States . . . so where are y'all from? Just curious . . . I'm studying English Language and Literature here in Edinburgh, Scotland. I'm only in First Year, though. Otherwise my background includes a little Classical Studies (hi Jenni!) and Latin, and a lot more English. I'm interested in the ancient world (Egypt, Rome, Greece specifically). So, are most of the people on this list students or graduates? I have to say, this is the most diverse list I've ever seen when it comes to diversity of nationality. There are Americans of all kinds ;-) (people from USA, Canada, Argentina), French, Austrians, Italians, Russians, Norwegians, Scottish (any English, Irish or Welsh people here?), Australian... I've never seen such a variety of people. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:06:18 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Another elf migration question. On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 stan wrote: IIIIIRC CoM is the only place where it says that the two migrations meet. In HW it doesn't say either way but it does say that >>Correct, CoM is the only place where it says these two migrations meet - because this is the only place which mentions *that particular* second migration. >>>Which sort of implies that the two migrations didn't meet since elsewhere the indication is that the Glantri elves left the Ilsundal migration after the Ilsudal migration would have met up with (the second) migration. >>Yes, because we are talking about a different set of migrations. >I thought that there were two migrations, and one that split off from Ilsundal and rejoined it later as well, but Jody Duncan convinced me otherwise (the discussions of this can be found in earlier digests). So, I don't think we are talking about different sets of migrations. Why not? Previous discussions are irrelevant unless they turned up new canonical information. According to the sources I set out clear as the light of day before you, there are two different migrations, one of which has an offshoot which then rejoins it. >>>Apart from this why would everyone have forgotten the leader of the second migrations name (as said in CoM) if the migration had met up with Ilsundal's? >>That is a circular argument, I'm afraid. I could equally say that his name was forgotten because he was eclipsed by Ilsundal as the leader of the overall migration. >We're talking about elves. They live up to 800 years. How hard can it be to remember someone's name. And why would the second leader be eclipsed? The second migration was following the second leader, they left Grunland because of that elf - for them, that elf is the big dude, just like for the first migration Ilsundal was the big dude. I doubt that all those people following the second leader would suddenly forget who that elf was because there was someone who happened to lead a similar migration earlier than the second leader. Most of the people from the second migration probably weren't even born when the Ilsundal migration started - they were following their leader. IMHO they wouldn't forget their leaders name. But we're also talking about two migrations which SET OUT AT THE SAME TIME. So your arguments above are also irrelevant. Even if you think they did not set out at the same time, as referenced in Champions of Mystara, you cannot start using arguments about the leader's name being forgotten to help your position. Why? Because CoM is the only source that says the leader's name is forgotten!! You can't take a source and pick and choose your information. >>Please note that it is from this last migration in BC 2500 that the Belcadiz elves come from. (GAZ5) >Merely a claim from the Belcadiz elves as per GAZ3 What is that supposed to mean? GAZ3 makes it pretty clear that the elves returning to Glantri in the 8th Century AC are descended from the elves that left in 1700 BC. The "Historians believe" part is probably there to make it more "historical"-sounding. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:02:25 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Sebastian Quiles wrote: TThis is off topic too... >I'm from the Republic.... (using your logic!)... Remember: USA it's not the only country in america, >so you didn't have rights to say sentences like "President of America"... and "The States" it's so >insignificant like "The Republic" or "The Reign" or "The Country"... This is a good point, but unfortunately it is also a bit hard to get around. No offense to all the "Americans" on this list, but the United States of America is an annoying name to abbreviate without a lot of ambiguity! (As is the United Kingdom - or at least it would be if there were a lot more united kingdoms in the world... :-) If we say the States, well there are a lot of states in the world. If we say America then other residents of the American continents get annoyed. USA is fine but it's not always appropriate to use an abbreviation. It would really be easiest if we could refer to "Americans" by their particular state, but that's not realistic. So, unfortunately, the only way to go is really to continue with the present way of things, despite its annoyances and problems. Sorry. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:43:38 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 03:35 AM 4/28/97 +0100, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >So, are most of the people on this list students or graduates? I'm a graduate student. Oh, and when I mentioned my anthro classes I forgot to note that I've taken a couple of awesome classics courses. :) >I have to say, this is the most diverse list I've ever seen when it comes to diversity of nationality. There are Americans of all kinds ;-) (people from USA, Canada, Argentina), French, Austrians, Italians, Russians, Norwegians, Scottish (any English, Irish or Welsh people here?), Australian... I've never seen such a variety of people. Most lists I'm on have people from around the world, but it doesn't show as much as it does on the Mystara list. Perhaps that's largely because here people tend to actively relate the perspectives they have from their respective cultures to the game, where on most academic lists it's not as relevant. I'm from the USA, but my mother is from Cuba. My father, while also from the US, has his roots in eastern Europe (e.g. Lithuania). Speaking of eastern Europe, what would you all say is the real-world analogue(s) of the Traladaran language in Karameikos? It's seems on the face of it like Russian to me, but I know the culture is more like the Balkans, and is supposed to have Greek/Turkish aspects (given the parallel of domination by a Byzantine-like culture (i.e. Thyatis). I'm trying to think of ways to come up with more names for Traladaran people and places. Toodles, / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:49:10 +0000 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Well, i didn't want to get caught in this spiral of off-topic posts, but since it seems we're making a census of the Mystara DMs and players i guess this is not so off topic as i thought. Thereby here it is my stats: i'm attending the 3rd year of Sociology and Communications at the University of Bologna (Italy) but i've done extensive researches and studies regarding history (mainly Europe) and mithology (Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Aztec and something about India too). DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:55:01 +0000 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: [Mystara] Traladaran language At 22.43 27/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >Speaking of eastern Europe, what would you all say is the >real-world analogue(s) of the Traladaran language in Karameikos? It's seems >on the face of it like Russian to me, but I know the culture is more like the BBalkans, and is supposed to have Greek/Turkish aspects (given the parallel of domination by a Byzantine-like culture (i.e. Thyatis). I'm trying to think of ways to come up with more names for Traladaran people and places. >Toodles, >David "Azure" Leland Actually, IMHO the Traladaran culture is a perfect example of the russian-turkish-balkan crossbreed that exists in Rumany, Bulgary and Moldavia, each conquered and inhabited by turks, russians and balkans. So i guess traladarans speak Moldavian or maybe Rumanian. Do not forget that Vlad Tsepes hails from Rumania (he was the Voivoda of the Valacchia) and it seems that vampires are very popular among the superstitiuos traladarans. DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:59:25 +0000 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: [Mystara] Immortal dragons i don't remember who posted the question so i will post here the reply. Sorry for everyone not interested in PS: i do not intend to abuse of TSR copyright here: the following info is thus to be considered TSR copyright from Wrath of the Immortal boxed set Game statistics : Celestial, Sphere of Entropy, level/classes AC , hp , HD ; Mv , #AT ; D AM ; Save . AL, WoA ; Str , Int , Wis , Dex , Con , Cha . Powers : Avatars Description: The Great One Eternal, Sphere of Matter; 26th level; AC -12; hp 550; HD 40; Mv 180 (60); 420 (140) flying; #AT 10 (3 bites, 2 claws, 2 wing swipes, 2 kicks, 1 tail swing); D 6d8 +12 (bite)/ 2d8 +12 each other; AM 80%; Save IM26; AL N; St 70, In 65, Wi 70, De 17, Co 20, Ch 45 Powers: Dragon Breath, Dragon Form, Extra attacks Appearence: a bright three headed dragon (mortals cannot stand to look at him) Diamond Celestial, Sphere of Matter; 16th level; AC -10; hp 240; HD 30; Mv 180 (60); 420 (140) flying; #AT 9 (2 bites, 2 claws, 2 wing swipes, 2 kicks, 1 tail swing); D 6d8 +8 (bite)/ 2d8 +8 each other; AM 60%; Save IM16; AL L; St 35, In 20, Wi 20, De 23, Co 35, Ch 23 Powers: Dragon Form, Improved saving throw vs Spell, Turn Undead Appearence: a golden dragon with a diamond scaled head (mortals cannot stand to look at him) Opal Celestial, Sphere of Matter; 13th level; AC -9; hp 180; HD 27; Mv 180 (60); 420 (140) flying; #AT 9 (3 bites, 2 claws, 2 wing swipes, 2 kicks, 1 tail swing); D 6d8 +4 (bite)/ 2d8 +4 each other; AM 60%; Save IM13; AL N; St 20, In 20, Wi 20, De 22, Co 35, Ch 23 Powers: Dragon Breath, Dragon Form, Detection suite Appearence: a huge white dragon with thousands of tiny specks of color in all the hues of the rainbow Pearl Temporal, Sphere of Matter; 10th level; AC -8; hp 140; HD 24; Mv 180 (60); 420 (140) flying; #AT 9 (3 bites, 2 claws, 2 wing swipes, 2 kicks, 1 tail swing); D 6d8 (bite)/ 2d8 each other; AM 50%; Save IM10; AL C; St 12, In 20, Wi 20, De 24, Co 35, Ch 23 Powers: Dragon Breath, Dragon Form, Detection suite Appearence: a huge dragon with scales like mother of pearl, white but iridescent, constantly shifting in color ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:24:34 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: WotC/TSR staff (was [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft) At 19.13 26/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >Who was fired -- Steve Miller or Bruce Heard? The last I heard, WotC >wasn't firing any of the creative types -- although they were wanting them to move out to Washington, and I am not sure what happens to those who don't want to move. Can anyone affected give us more news? Actually, Steve Miller, one of the Ravenloft editors, was fired during the Xmas holidays, when TSR fired about 20 people to reorganize its staff and bureocracy... Now he is working for the house publishing Star Wars RPG (GDW?). AFAIK Bruce Heard is still an emplyoee of TSR and will remain as long as he lives (this just being a prediction... u know, i have theSoothsaying skill from HWR1). DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:26:04 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >Anyway, now for my whole reason for saying this: What do you all think about this? Is there some way to connect this with the Carnifex Tyranny? I know nothing about the Carnifex, so I'm asking in complete ignorance... :/ The only info we have on the Carnifex is from M4: Twilight Calling. Therein, we learn that the Carnifex were a race of powerful, magic using carnosaurs (7' tall- use same classes as humans) who ruled on Mystara eons ago, but were driven from the prime plane by the Immortals and imprisoned on some distant plane. Magic using lizards sounds very similar to a) dragons, and b) the Immortal Ka in mortal life. My thinking (if we want to connect them), is that the Carnifex are related to/evolved similarly to the species that Ka developed from, and likewise are related to dragons. The lizardkin (gator men, lizard men, troglodytes, etc.) could be degenerate ancestors of the Carnifex. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:30:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >I'm an uncool, boring one like you. BS in chemical engineering and working on a MS of material science right now. I always thought many role-players are engineers, I guess I was wrong. To tell the truth, one of the reasons I got interested in Anthropology is because of roleplaying- specifically, because of Mystara. With all of the interesting cultures based on real world cultures, I started to get more curious about the fundamentals of civilization and people. Here's my thanks to Bruce, Ann, Aaron, and all the rest of the people at TSR who worked on Mystara for instilling a curiosity about the "real world" in me. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:42:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: >Speaking of eastern Europe, what would you all say is the real-world analogue(s) of the Traladaran language in Karameikos? It's seems on the face of it like Russian to me, but I know the culture is more like the Balkans, and is supposed to have Greek/Turkish aspects (given the parallel of domination by a Byzantine-like culture (i.e. Thyatis). I'm trying to think of ways to come up with more names for Traladaran people and places. The names definitely sound Russian, or at least Eastern European, but their description in the HW boxed set places them as an analogue to the Bronze Age Greeks... curious... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:57:54 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Detect Magic Just a plain technic question: Can a Detect Magic reveal an Invisible character or one that is Invisible to mortals? Thankx for your time DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:39:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >So, are most of the people on this list students or graduates? How about in-between? I'm graduating in a couple of weeks. ;) >I have to say, this is the most diverse list I've ever seen when it comes to diversity of nationality. There are Americans of all kinds ;-) (people from USA, Canada, Argentina), French, Austrians, Italians, Russians, Norwegians, Scottish (any English, Irish or Welsh people here?), Australian... I've never seen such a variety of people. I agree. I would never have guessed that Mystara-fans would have been so widespread and diverse, especially given that it was cancelled due to lack of a following. Maybe Mystara did better overseas than it did in the States? (I wouldn't find that hard to believe- I don't tend to place much faith in the American- that's US- ability to discriminate between "good" and "crap". What can I say? I'm a cynic. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:42:59 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Oards At 17.33 26/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >>PS: oh, btw, one of my players has been transformed into an oard (they assimilate worlds....): guess how will he end up? >Let me guess- he has been assimilated, right? ;) Actually, since the party has to destroy every single oard(borg) to get Aelos rid of their menace and to change the course of Mystara history (thus averting its doom), they will have to kill their companion as well. They have realized it, and the player is now delaying the painful process as long as he can. BTW: wonder how did they escape Mystara's destruction? They were out in the space with a flying skyship (created with a mix of gnomish devices and magic) trying to stop the same alien spaceship that fired at their world! DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:38:55 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Arica & Carnifex (long) At 18.36 26/04/97 -0700, Ctuhlhudrew wrote: OOn Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >>Exactly. In my history, the "Forest of Ka" was the last remnant of the vile Serpentine Empire, which was itself descended from the Carnifex Tyranny, ancient Aeons ago. The Lizard Men, Troglodytes and Yuan-Ti were servitor races created by the Serpentines during their long ages of rule (as >>were the Giants, Enduks and others). The Elves actually fit into this picture >>as well, as in my history, they are descended from a group of Yuan-Ti who >>were purged of their serpentine poisons by the Immortal Ordana, and >>culturally revamped by the Faerie Folk under the tutelage of Ordana. >Interesting. I hadn't thought to involve the Carnifex (truth be told, I'd more or less forgotten about them entirely). The only info we have on the Carnifex is from M4: Twilight Calling. Therein, we learn that the Carnifex were a race of powerful, magic using carnosaurs (7' tall- use same classes as humans) who ruled on Mystara eons ago, but were driven from the prime plane by the Immortals and imprisoned on some distant plane. >Magic using lizards sounds very similar to a) dragons, and b) the Immortal Ka in mortal life. My thinking (if we want to connect them), is that the Carnifex are related to/evolved similarly to the species that Ka developed from, and likewise are related to dragons. The lizardkin (gator men, lizard men, troglodytes, etc.) could be degenerate ancestors of the Carnifex. KA-BLAM! That's the same thought i had! I have always wanted to develop the history of the Carnifex and this stuff Mystaros wrote actually gave me a lot of backup info on the possible Carnifex background. I had reasoned that the Carnifex were on Mystara about at the same time Ka became an Immortal, well maybe some centuries later (give them the time to develop their culture and magical arts) and from them the modern serpentine cultures and races evolved (or rather devolved, the lizard men and yuan-ti being the only exception to the rule, but they also are not so powerful as the Carnifex). Currently i have some interesting ideas about the Carnifex and the real location of Guardian Mesa (not in the Broken Lands, cause it would be to easily accessible... i've placed it on the Denagothian Plateau for my personal reasons), and i am about to let the events described in M4 happen after the WotI, but not as they are described there... i cannot reveal them now, sorry. Anyway, i find this topic about the real origins of the Carnifex really interesting and we should develop Davania according to these lines that Mystaros has traced: once the cradle of the first civilization on Mystara (the Carnifex and lizardkin), it has now reverted to a sparsely populated area with many tribes, especially lizardkin tribes, harassing trespassers. I'd throw in some humanoid crossbreeds and human colonies too, but these last one only restricted to the coastline, or anyway not too far from it or from a major river that flows to the Sea of Dread or to the Izondian Deep, so to leave the heart of Davania to its original inhabitants (lizardkin). There should also be some hidden or lost temples and cities of the Carnifex to discover, with malign and dangerous guards to protect them, etc. About the origin of the elves and Enduks and E'aar, IIRC these last two are detailed in the Orc's Head supplement (you can download it from TSR MPGN site) and their history is there as well, and i dunno think there are any references to this lizard ancestors (unfortunately my PC had its harddisk purified by a small version of the GRoF which left it without the old data i downloaded, so i cannot go to check it now). As for the elves, i had always thought they were created by Ordana by using the fairy folk as a basis, sort of incarnation of fairy souls, but i really don't know much bout it. However, the hypothesis of Mystaros is enthralling, and if we follow it then we should place the Carnifex era between 6000 BC (when the elves are thriving nurtured by the forest spirits) and maybe 8000 BC (give the dinosaurs time to evolve into lizardmen and carnifex and then to the carnifex to create the lesser lizardkin). Any thoughts? >>Yes, quite. Actually, in my history, the Lizard Men of the Malpheggi were the allies of Setu-Kha, the great bane of the early Nithian Empire. Setu-Kha >>(now the Immortal Set) had his own kingdom on the Isle of the Serpent (the >>"Kikianu Caldera" of GAZ 4), which was destroyed in the cataclysm of 1700 BC. The Lizard Men of Herath are descended from Lizard Men >>slaves traded to the Herathians by the Enduks when they settled there in >>2000 BC. >I'll have to check that GAZ 4 reference; I confess, there's another one that slipped by me. Sounds interesting. I was thinking of creating a Set-like Immortal as well; probably something more like the Serpent Old One in Call of Cthulhu, who was going to be the basis for the Manacapuru worship. I too had the same idea again after reading PWA1014!! Also, IIRC there is a reference in PWA1013 about a strange isle in the middle of the Sea of Dread that when explored by some sailors who came across it, was inhabited by strange hostile lizardlike creatures, who repelled the sailors. The isle was then gone when the ship returned to the spot with reinforcements. Could this be a reference to R'lyeh? *evil grin, brushing his hands* Then, if Yig (the Serpent Old ONe) is the deity worshipped by the yuan-ti and the Manacapuru, and if this isle is really R'lyeh, what keeps us from mingling with the Cthulhu mithoi? Basically only copyright! Personally i have already hinted the existence of the Messenger of the Old Ones, Nyarlathotep (ancient nithian ruins about a strange moster from beyond worshipped as Nythotep by some and Nyotep by others), so i u think this could be interesting, let's keep on adding! Sorry for the long post! :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:51:13 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Arypt The crystal pyramids of Arypt have always been a mystery to me. They closely resemble the ancient nithian and thothian buildings, but they are made of crystal, and moreover they lie about 2000 miles far from Nithia. So my question is: who built them? And have they any connection to the nithians, or can they be the same nithians? And if the nithians are responsible for this, can it be that the Ylaruam nithians who rose to prominence in 1500 BC are descendants of the original Nithians, who in fact developed in Arypt? And if this hypothesis is true, then who taught them to build the crystal pyramids? And what is the secret they hide? I suspect that if Per Kirvik's theories about the Circular Crop Cuttings and the strange lights in the sky are true, then the Crystal Pyramids can very well be the product of an alien more advanced culture. And what if this culture is responsible for the evolution and the creation of the entire human race? Some more mysteries to solve... and the truth is out there... DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:30:09 -0400 From: Chris Frisby Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? At 08:26 AM 4/28/97 +0000, you wrote: Sounds more like a Bozak Draconian OOn Sat, 26 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >>Anyway, now for my whole reason for saying this: What do you all think about this? Is there some way to connect this with the Carnifex Tyranny? I know nothing about the Carnifex, so I'm asking in complete ignorance... :/ >The only info we have on the Carnifex is from M4: Twilight Calling. Therein, we learn that the Carnifex were a race of powerful, magic using carnosaurs (7' tall- use same classes as humans) who ruled on Mystara eons ago, but were driven from the prime plane by the Immortals and imprisoned on some distant plane. >Magic using lizards sounds very similar to a) dragons, and b) the Immortal Ka in mortal life. My thinking (if we want to connect them), is that the Carnifex are related to/evolved similarly to the species that Ka developed from, and likewise are related to dragons. The lizardkin (gator men, lizard men, troglodytes, etc.) could be degenerate ancestors of the Carnifex. - -- Friz What do computer engineers use for birth control? Their personalities. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:04:05 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] File Attachments to the List Someone posted the question whether or not they could send file attachments to the list. The answer is "you really shouldn't." Attachments have proven troublesome in the past. If it is text simply put it in the body of the post. If it is something else put it on a web site and let people know it is there. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:04:33 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: {Mystara] Axial Tilt (was Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres) On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >>Could somebody please refresh my memory about this one? I vaguely recall somebody mentioning that Mystara is supposed to have no tilt to its axis, but I cannot recall the source. If it is true, it could have some very interesting implications. For example: Are the seasons in the southern hemisphere reversed as in our world, or does the entire planet go through winter at once? As was the case with the odd motions of Mystara's visible moon, the seasons on Mystara could provide a clue to yet another of Mystara's magical mysteries. >I can't remember the exact reference, but Mystara has no axial tilt. Therefore, we can assume (using the infamous Transitive Law of Assumption - ie. if A=B and B=C, A=D - you just assume C=D ::grin::) that the whole planet is in summer or winter all at once as the planet moves closer and farther from the sun in its orbit. >Steve Mystara has an axial tilt of exactly 23.5 degrees, same as Earth. Pre-Great Rain of Fire it had no tilt. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:16:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Thorfinn Tait pontificated: >So, are most of the people on this list students or graduates? My guess is that students have the easiest access to the net. >I have to say, this is the most diverse list I've ever seen when it comes to diversity of nationality. There are Americans of all kinds ;-) (people from USA, Canada, Argentina), French, Austrians, Italians, Russians, Norwegians, Scottish (any English, Irish or Welsh people here?), Australian... I've never seen such a variety of people. I'm also of Chinese heritage. And there are used to be people from Japan, Mexico, and Bosnia. Don't know whether they still around or not. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:56:31 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Almanac Dumb question... Both Ann Dupuis and I would like a copy of the Net/Almanac. Where can we download this new material? Thanks. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:03:09 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft: the truth revealed >The dark lord is the guy featured in "Ship of Horror." I forget his name right now -- Morgoroth? does anyone know about this character? or does anyone have "ship of horror"? any info would be appreciated thanks - -Crip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:56:26 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics This is a really cool thread! It does make you think.... For what it's worth, I'll add my own colored stone to the stack -- I was born and raised in southern France, now living in northern Illinois. My business background was hotel management, although I now work in the publishing industry. I wonder if the habit of getting inspiration (even if fairly inaccurate) from present or past cultures has something to do with the comparatively greater success of Mystara overseas than in the USA. Following this idea, I'm curious to see if the Savage Coast has had a special impact on Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking gaming communities? Any thoughts? Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:56:18 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres In a message dated 97-04-25 18:37:48 EDT, Ryan writes: <> That gets you to about the same point as what I had described earlier. Basically, all spheres are affected the same way. The difference is that there only is one artifact instead of five. I think having only one removes the potential for intrigue and rivalry among the spheres. I think each sphere of Immortals should go through the learning pains of building their own artirfact in order not to fall behind those who have already succeeded. I think that's better than having the Old Ones just hand the solution to their problems to the Immortals. That's just not the way Old Ones would do things. Immortals need to learn something through this ordeal. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #57 **************************** Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:30:45 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #58 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, April 28 1997 Volume 02 : Number 058 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:18:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: >On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >>Lets say MoA is set in 1012. If Rad ends up as an Immortal, he remains passive for a few years, if not, he becomes immortal around 1015. I any of these cases he will be Immortal in 1015. The main difference will be this: If Rad has to regain immortality on his own, then he will need a patron, who will have great influence over him later. I suggest that Rafiel will sponsor him, thus making them great allies. This will be a good reason why Rafiel will let Rad study the CoS according to my other posting. >Couldn't Rad just use the Radiance to make himself Immortal again? At least if the spell still works. >And I think Rad and Rafiel are already allies since WotI. If the Radience now produces Entrophical Immortals, that would not be so wise. So Rad should Embark on the path of th Paragon. Quest: find an Artifact Trial: Make a new magical item Testemony:recruit6 prentices who must rise at least 12 lvls in his service. transform the land around his home for 100 miles. Task: duel 8 magicusers of at least 25th level. Nothing Rad couln't manage I guess, though 5 years isn't that long a time. He could perhaps rather use the Chamber of the Stars to aquire Immortality? Rafiel would probably let him, since as you say they are already allies. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:02:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >>Izondia: I dont think there should be Sand people there. I dont like the idea of everyone migrating to other continents. The Sandpeople were interesting, but lets keep them on the plateau. Rather go with the lizard-beings here. >I agree with the lizardmen/saurian idea. I just sort of tossed out the Sand People idea, but on reflection, I rather prefer the thought of reptile beings on Davania. The Sand People aren't even carbon based... hehe. If we go with the Saurian descendants theory, this would make sense. I still think most of Davania should be wild though. I guess Lizardmen are pretty good at that. >>Pelatan: I figured the amazones were decendants of the milenians of arypt, but I havent worked anyting out. I dont know how you explained the Afridhi getting to Pelatan, maybe they discovered a magical gate which they thought would lead them to paradise? >Not to dredge up the "Where is Blackmoor?" issue again, but as far as I'm concerned, Blackmoor was on Brun, near Hyborea (slightly north of Hule). Hence, the Afridhi came from the area near to the (current day) Arm of the Immortals (then known as the Goblin Kush), and retreated back that way when they were defeated in the days of early Blackmoor. After the GRoF, some migrated south to Davania, others migrated to Zyxl. But again, that's just as far as I'm concerned... Given Shawn Stanleys information placing Blackmoor on Skothar, the Afridhi still could have travelled across skothar and across the sea to Davania Via the Immortals Arm. >>Arypt: I remember reading something about a new Milenian empire rising in Arypt. Was that from the HW box? Im not sure. >I don't know where you might have heard this. There are remnants of the Milenian Empire on Davania, scattered city-states, but as far as I know, Arypt is now simply a desert, the Aryptian Basin. I cant find anything about the New Milenian Empire I mentioned. Im inclined to believe that I was mistaken. It has happened before :) Speaking of Davanian Cultures, Ive always believed that the the area around the Adakkian sound was populated by Hin. I think the Hin were originally very much like Tolikena Hobbits; very nice and innocent. However the Known World HAlflings, as I see them, have lost their innocence, They know violence. I dont know about the Adakkian Hin though. Making them exactly like those of LotR wouldn't be very interesting, so I guess they should have changed too. Perhaps they sail in small seaweed boats. A primitive fishing culture really. I dont know what else would be living in those parts, except crockoldiles and other fierce animals. These Hin were probably influenced by the old Milenian Empire too... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:29:11 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" >I would probably suggest that orcs and elves, at least, can interbreed, due to the numerous connections between the two races that are alluded to in many places (GAZ5 and 10, for example). I concur. This is verified in the novel Son of Dawn. One of the minor characters in the novel is an elf/orc crossbreed who leads a band of mercenary humanoids. The book makes the point that he combines the strength of his orcish parent with the grace and intelligence of his elvish parent. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:03:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Traldarans (was: Demographics) On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: >Speaking of eastern Europe, what would you all say is the real-world analogue(s) of the Traladaran language in Karameikos? It's seems on the face of it like Russian to me, but I know the culture is more like the Balkans, and is supposed to have Greek/Turkish aspects (given the parallel of domination by a Byzantine-like culture (i.e. Thyatis). I'm trying to think of ways to come up with more names for Traladaran people and places. A friend of mine recently visited the Czech republic, and mentioned to me that the name of the capital, Prague, means something like Treshold. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:23:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: >Since there seems to be a lot of talk about lizard-ish cultures in Davania, let me bounce an idea out there. In the Dragonlord trilogy books, the Council of Dragons was up in Norwold. I always thought that it was a sort of regional council. I place the Draconic Council of Mystara in the large range of mountain in the middle of Davania (Ice Peaks I think...the name eludes me right now). I've been combining what I read in the Dragonlord books with the Council of Wyrms boxed set and the FR Draconomicon. AAnyway, now for my whole reason for saying this: What do you all think about this? Is there some way to connect this with the Carnifex Tyranny? I know nothing about the Carnifex, so I'm asking in complete ignorance... :/ So the Council in the Ice Peaks is a planetary one, or just one for Davania? Why are Gold Dragons renegade, anyway? The relationship between dragons and Dinosaurs is an interestiong one. The DragonLord triology says that Dragons are related to elves. I never liked that part. Elves were created by Ordana. My theory on Dragons: Dragons come from the outer planes. Their orginin is unknown, though they may have been created by the first Great One. (There has been at least two) The current Great One created the ceremony of sublimation allowing dragons easier to gaing immortal status. Why Dragons now have various colours and abilities is yet to be revealed. Linking Dragons to Dinosaurs: If Dinosaurs were the ancestors of the Dragons, Dragons would be a lot younger that suspected and they would originate on Mystara. Dinosaurs could be degenerated Dragons though. This makes the dinos seem rather pathetic IMHO. any thoughts, anyone? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:36:53 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Almanac >Dumb question... >Both Ann Dupuis and I would like a copy of the Net/Almanac. Where can we download this new material? Thanks. >Bruce Heard It's not a dumb question, because there is no answer. Sean does not yet have the Mystara area up at the TSR website, and last I heard, the MPGN site hadn't yet put the almanac up. Since these are the only legal sites to place it on the web, I guess you can't download it. However, a couple people have been offering to send their formats of it via e-mail: Thorfinn Tait has the almanac in Word Perfect 6.0 format. Fabrizio Paoli has it in .doc format for Word (BTW, could you please send me that Fabrizio. Thanks) BTW, why hasnt' Ann Dupuis been talking to us lately? Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:04:30 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Thorfinn Tait wrote: >On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Sebastian Quiles wrote: TTThis is off topic too... >>I'm from the Republic.... (using your logic!)... Remember: USA it's not the only country in america, >>so you didn't have rights to say sentences like "President of America"... and "The States" it's so >>insignificant like "The Republic" or "The Reign" or "The Country"... Nothing personal to anyone on the list, but name one other country in the world that goes by the abbreviation "The States" besides to U.S. I don't know how it translates in other languages, but we usually refer to countries as nations or countries . The European nations, the African countries, or the South American countries. The only exception would be the former Soviet countries. Sometimes we refer to them as former Soviet states or eastern block states, but even then they use words to distinguish those states frow our states. Like I showed above. Do other languages not make a distiction between states and nations? >This is a good point, but unfortunately it is also a bit hard to get around. No offense to all the "Americans" on this list, but the United States of America is an annoying name to abbreviate without a lot of ambiguity! (As is the United Kingdom - or at least it would be if there were a lot more united kingdoms in the world... :-) If we say the States, well there are a lot of states in the world. If we say America then other residents of the American continents get annoyed. USA is fine but it's not always appropriate to use an abbreviation. It would really be easiest if we could refer to "Americans" by their particular state, but that's not realistic. >So, unfortunately, the only way to go is really to continue with the present way of things, despite its annoyances and problems. Sorry. >Thank you kindly, >Thorfinn. >===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he hhimself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk >===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:23:45 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language >>Speaking of eastern Europe, what would you all say is the >real-world aanalogue(s) of the Traladaran language in Karameikos? It's seems >on the face of it like Russian to me, but I know the culture is more like the BBBalkans, and is supposed to have Greek/Turkish aspects (given the parallel >>of domination by a Byzantine-like culture (i.e. Thyatis). I'm trying to think of ways to come up with more names for Traladaran people and places. >Actually, IMHO the Traladaran culture is a perfect example of the russian-turkish-balkan crossbreed that exists in Rumany, Bulgary and Moldavia, each conquered and inhabited by turks, russians and balkans. So i >guess traladarans speak Moldavian or maybe Rumanian. Do not forget that Vlad >Tsepes hails from Rumania (he was the Voivoda of the Valacchia) and it seems >that vampires are very popular among the superstitiuos traladarans. I'm afraid I disagree with the Russian-Turkish-Balkan crossbeed comment. Romanians and Moldovans speak a Latin-based language that has been influenced by Slavic languages, but Romanian is still definitely a Romance language. Many of the names in Karameikos are distinctly Romanian (pretty much anything ending with -escu, and some of the -inevs). I think that the Traladaran culture is just kind of a fusion of various Eastern European cultures-- Romanian, Bulgarian, Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian, Bosnian, etc. The Thyatian invaders are supposed to be the analogue of the Byzantine Empire, so they should be responsible for the Turkish atmosphere. As far as coming up with Traladaran names, look at the names in the area you are interested in (i.e., Threshold, Mirros, Luln, or Haven?), figure out what real language they are based on, and get a map and a book or two about that country or region, and use the names from there, or change them slightly to suit your purposes. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:42:40 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >I wonder if the habit of getting inspiration (even if fairly inaccurate) from >present or past cultures has something to do with the comparatively greater >success of Mystara overseas than in the USA. Following this idea, I'm curious >to see if the Savage Coast has had a special impact on Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking gaming communities? Any thoughts? >Bruce Heard Well, I'll jump on the bandwagon now. I'm a high school junior (apparently I'm the baby of the list) in Phoenix, Arizona. I can't comment from direct experience on the Spanish-speaking market, but I have noticed that here in Phoenix it is now impossible to find the Savage Coast accessories since they all were purchased fairly quickly, but there are still Glantri and Karameikos boxes sitting untouched in many stores. Perhaps this has something to do with the cultural similarities between the Savage Coast and Arizona. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:21:08 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ravenloft Villain On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 Neal Daskal wrote: >Aaron Alston tended to ignore Nephew's work in the development of the WotI/PWA storyline which was the last major Known World work. In particular, I was disappointed by any WotI reference to the Dreamlands and the sidhe from PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk which I thought was Nephew's work which best integrated into the Known World (I had Puck follow my party around in robin form for game years, keeping an eye on them for Terari). Actually Aaron Allston did put in at least one reference to the HWA series - he mentions somewhere that Thanatos is now reigning Hierarch again after being "demoted" in favour of Hel (I think) in that little crisis a few years back. You can find it soewhere in the Wrath of the Immortals set. (Sorry, I don't remember the page or book it's on/in.) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:23:23 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Unofficial D&D Cyclopedia Errata On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 Daniel Boese wrote: SSince Jason gives a URL, I thought it would be easier just to post the message than the entire Errata. Thanks for finding this, Daniel! It's pretty cool. I hadn't realised there were so many mistakes in the Cyclopedia because I never actually read it cover to cover since I already knew the rules like the back of my hand anyway from the five sets. This errata page is very interesting and definitely worth checking out. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:33:44 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >>So, are most of the people on this list students or graduates? >How about in-between? I'm graduating in a couple of weeks. ;) :-) >>I have to say, this is the most diverse list I've ever seen when it comes to diversity of nationality. There are Americans of all kinds ;-) (people from USA, Canada, Argentina), French, Austrians, Italians, Russians, Norwegians, Scottish (any English, Irish or Welsh people here?), Australian... I've never seen such a variety of people. >I agree. I would never have guessed that Mystara-fans would have been so widespread and diverse, especially given that it was cancelled due to lack of a following. Maybe Mystara did better overseas than it did in the States? (I wouldn't find that hard to believe- I don't tend to place much faith in the American- that's US- ability to discriminate between "good" and "crap". What can I say? I'm a cynic. :) Certainly Mystara was the only thing being played at home in Orkney, but down here in Edinburgh it doesn't seem to be so popular. BUT... my flatmate surprised me the other night by announcing he was a D&D player... That's D&D, not AD&D, and thus Mystara. I can't help thinking that the reasonn Mystara died was because they converted it to AD&D... it seems to me that the D&D sales must have been pretty good for them to consider doing a risky change-over. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mournedbeside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:21:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-28 01:54:39 EDT, you write: << Speaking of eastern Europe, what would you all say is the real-world analogue(s) of the Traladaran language in Karameikos? It's seems on the face of it like Russian to me, but I know the culture is more like the Balkans, and is supposed to have Greek/Turkish aspects (given the parallel of domination by a Byzantine-like culture (i.e. Thyatis). I'm trying to think of ways to come up with more names for Traladaran people and places. The Traladaran language is an odd mix... part Romanian, part Slavic (southern), with a dash of Russian thrown in. I've divided the Traladaran language into two primary dialects... Volagan is the southern dialect of the coastal and lower riverine clans, while Voldavian is the dialect of the mountain, hill and deep forest clans. Volagan is more Romanian in form, while Voldavian is more Slavic (Serbo-Croatian). Volagan in written with the Thyatian alphabet ("Roman" script"), and Voldavian is written in the Vergan alphabet ("Cyrillic"). The Boldavian language of Glantri is a Voldavian dialect with strong admixture of Flaemish ("Russian"), and uses the Vergan alphabet. Viseri is the name I gave to the Traladarans of the Savage Coast City States; they speak Viseri, which is a language related to Volagan, with a heavy admixture of Thyatian and Hulean (no real world equivalent; maybe Montenegran dialect?), and uses the Thyatian alphabet [Viseri is also known as "Slag", and is the CommonTongue along the Savage Coast]. The language of the Karameikan Nobility is, of course, Thyatian, with strong admixtures of the Kerendan and Hattian dialects (the friends and family of Duke Stefan were primarilly Kerendans and Hattians). There is, as yet, no seperate "Karameikan" language, though in and around Specularum there is a developing patois, a mix of Thyatian and Traladaran that is not yet a language, merely a series of codes in common use for trade between Thyatians and Traladarans... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:33:56 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: {Mystara] Axial Tilt (was Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres) >Mystara has an axial tilt of exactly 23.5 degrees, same as Earth. Pre-Great Rain of Fire it had no tilt. My mistake....sorry. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:34:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? In a message dated 97-04-28 04:51:38 EDT, you write: << Magic using lizards sounds very similar to a) dragons, and b) the Immortal Ka in mortal life. My thinking (if we want to connect them), is that the Carnifex are related to/evolved similarly to the species that Ka developed from, and likewise are related to dragons. The lizardkin (gator men, lizard men, troglodytes, etc.) could be degenerate ancestors of the Carnifex. >> Pretty close to what I developed, actually. In my history of Mystara, Ka reached Immortality ca. 50,000,000 BC, and one of his first projects was the creation of the Carnifax race. The Carnifax reach incredible heights of power during their time, and in the end challenged the Immortals for Ultimate Power in the Multiverse. They lost, of course, and in the ensuing war pretty much destroyed Mystara (though it also revealed the Hollow World to Ka, which he and other Immortals promptly put to use saving thousands of Saurial species, which were becoming exting). That was ca. 5,000,000 BC; the Saurials declined and the mammals began evolving at a rapid rate in the vacuum left by the Saurials. The Serpentine Race (akin to the Serpent Men of Valusia in Kull and Conan) arose from the ashes of the destruction of their masters, the Carnifex. Meanwhile, the Mystaran Dragons were rapidly evolving from the Saurial species (note the many close comparisons between birds and dragons; this was not a coincidence). Note that in my Mystara, these were not the Chromatic and Metallic Dragons! Those Dragons arived on Mystara in 5500 BC, fleeing a massive war elsewhere on the Prime Plane (no, NOT Krynn). As to the other lizard races, Lizard Men, Troglodytes and such, they were all the various servitor races of the Carnifex, now under the control of the Serpentines. The Serpentines themsel "played" with the genetic development of various species, and these experiemtns eventually gave rise to the Giants and the Yuan-Ti among others (like the Enduks)... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:39:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-28 05:18:05 EDT, you write: << The names definitely sound Russian, or at least Eastern European, but their description in the HW boxed set places them as an analogue to the Bronze Age Greeks... curious... >> The Traldar themselves were analogues of the RW Bronze Age Greeks, or Achaeans. Just as the Achaeans eventually spread out and either evolved or were assimilated (can anyone say Philistines?), the Traldar of Mystara evolved as well. Remember, the Achaeans were most likely an Indo-European group heavily influenced by Minoan/Pelasgian culture... just like the Traldar (a Neathar clan of the Nithians) were influenced by the pure Nithian culture as well as the native Taymoran remnant cultures... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:46:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica & Carnifex (long) In a message dated 97-04-28 06:06:17 EDT, you write: << Currently i have some interesting ideas about the Carnifex and the real location of Guardian Mesa (not in the Broken Lands, cause it would be to easily accessible... i've placed it on the Denagothian Plateau for my personal reasons) >> I actually placed the Septahenge among the Mounds of Ligona on the great plateau in the Land of Carnax, north of Robrenn. Thought it was kind of appropriate... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:45:01 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt >Speaking of Davanian Cultures, Ive always believed that the the area around the Adakkian sound was populated by Hin. I think the Hin were originally very much like Tolikena Hobbits; very nice and innocent. However the Known World HAlflings, as I see them, have lost their innocence, They know violence. I dont know about the Adakkian Hin though. Making them exactly like those of LotR wouldn't be very interesting, so I guess they should have changed too. Perhaps they sail in small seaweed boats. A primitive fishing culture really. I dont know what else would be living in those parts, except crockoldiles and other fierce animals. These Hin were probably influenced by the old Milenian Empire too... Hmm...maybe because of the lizard-kin influence, these hin became more wild and cannibalistic - like the ones from Dark Sun. Any thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:33:07 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica & Carnifex (long) >The Elves actually fit into this >picture as well, as in my history, they are descended from a group of Yuan-Ti who were purged of their serpentine poisons by the Immortal Ordana, and culturally revamped by the Faerie Folk under the tutelage of Ordana. If we take into account the Dragonlord Trilogy, it mentions that dragons and elves came from the same stock - the Eldar. Therefore, the elf/Yuan-Ti connection is not all that far fetched. >(snip) >However, the hypothesis of Mystaros is enthralling, and if we follow it then we should place the Carnifex era between 6000 BC (when the elves are thriving nurtured by the forest spirits) and maybe 8000 BC (give the dinosaurs time to evolve into lizardmen and carnifex and then to the carnifex to create the lesser lizardkin). Any thoughts? I like the idea - except I'd have the carnifex mostly extinct by 6000 BC. Between 6000 BC and 5500 BC I'd put them in the Hollow World so Thanatos could possibly use them in helping to corrupt the Brute-Men (ie. aiding the Burrowers). After 5000 BC, the Spell of Preservation is cast, so the carnifex either were moved to another place in HW or are no longer a major player (maybe they have some strange link with the Brute-Men that wasn't destroyed by the Spell?) >I too had the same idea again after reading PWA1014!! Also, IIRC there is a reference in PWA1013 about a strange isle in the middle of the Sea of Dread that when explored by some sailors who came across it, was inhabited by strange hostile lizardlike creatures, who repelled the sailors. The isle was then gone when the ship returned to the spot with reinforcements. Could this be a reference to R'lyeh? *evil grin, brushing his hands* Then, if Yig (the Serpent Old ONe) is the deity worshipped by the yuan-ti and the Manacapuru, and if this isle is really R'lyeh, what keeps us from mingling with the Cthulhu mithoi? Basically only copyright! Personally i have already hinted the existence of the Messenger of the Old Ones, Nyarlathotep (ancient nithian ruins about a strange moster from beyond worshipped as Nythotep by some and Nyotep by others), so i u think this could be interesting, let's keep on adding! Egad! If the Old Ones actually turned out to be THE Old Ones...::shudder:: Now would be a good time for them to become more active (the stars are right!) since the Nucleus is now under Entropy's control. It's been a long time since I've read any H.P. Lovecraft, so I'm not up-to-date on my Cthulhu trivia. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:06:02 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >So, are most of the people on this list students or graduates? it depends on when I answer, since I'm graduating next week. I'm off to work directly for "The States" (U.S. Dept. of Transportation in Washington). Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:43:13 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Entropic Immortals >If the Radience now produces Entrophical Immortals, that would not be so wise. So Rad should Embark on the path of th Paragon. >Quest: find an Artifact >Trial: Make a new magical item >Testemony:recruit6 prentices who must rise at least 12 lvls in his service. transform the land around his home for 100 miles. Task: duel 8 magicusers of at least 25th level. Has anyone ever developed a Quest, Trial, Testimony and Task for Entropy? Here is what I came up with: Fiend - Path to the Sphere of Entropy This path does not favor any character class but does favor those of an evil (preferably chaotic) alignment. Entropy is the weakening of the fabric of the Multiverse. It seeks to bring all things to a stop, causing oblivion. Entropy seeks to destroy Matter, dissipate Energy, stagnate Time, and stifle Thought. The Seven Tests: Obeidience Dedication to Entropy Resourcefulness Bravery Persistance in the Face of Adversity Fast Thinking Destroy without Remorse Quest and Trial The fiend must quest for an artifact of the Sphere of Entropy. During the Quest, the fiend must be accompanied by at least one priest, one warrior, one wizard, and one rogue. The canidate must gain their trust and friendship, and then betray each of them in a different way. The betrayal must be know to the betrayed, but no one else need know. Task The canidate must, lie, destroy, or turn people against each other as much as possible. The fiend must travel to different cultures and lands, possibly other worlds, for five years while accomplishing this Task. Testimony After completing the Task, the canidate must either create a new race of monsters, or corrupt a group or culture of no less than 1000 individuals. The more the merrier! The corruption must take the form of the culture's impending destruction or change to Entropic worship. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:11:22 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds At 10:29 AM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" >>I would probably suggest that orcs and elves, at least, can interbreed, due to the numerous connections between the two races that are alluded to in many places (GAZ5 and 10, for example). >I concur. This is verified in the novel Son of Dawn. One of the minor Is Son of Dawn a Mystara book?? Did I miss another one??? Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:35:55 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft: the truth revealed On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: TTThe dark lord is the guy featured in "Ship of Horror." I forget his name right now -- Morgoroth? You're kidding, right? MORGorOTH? Snip out the or and you get Morgoth? Ring any bells for anyone? Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:49:33 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Ravenloft Villain >On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 Neal Daskal wrote: >>Aaron Alston tended to ignore Nephew's work in the development of the WotI/PWA storyline which was the last major Known World work. In particular, I was disappointed by any WotI reference to the Dreamlands and the sidhe from PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk which I thought was Nephew's work which best integrated into the Known World (I had Puck follow my party around in robin form for game years, keeping an eye on them for Terari). >Actually Aaron Allston did put in at least one reference to the HWA series - he mentions somewhere that Thanatos is now reigning Hierarch again after being "demoted" in favour of Hel (I think) in that little crisis a few years back. You can find it soewhere in the Wrath of the Immortals set. (Sorry, I don't remember the page or book it's on/in.) I don't recall that reference, but the little crisis sounds to me like the Nightstorm/Nightrage/Night??? trilogy. Although set in the HW, it was the work of Allan Varney and had nothing to do with the HW "Gazetteers" including Nephew's Sons of Azca other than just happening to take place in the same location. Alston's original HW boxed set and Varney's modules work well together. IMHO and IMC the "Gazetteers" didn't fit in. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:14:48 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >Nothing personal to anyone on the list, but name one other country in the world that goes by the abbreviation "The States" besides to U.S. I don't know how it translates in other languages, but we usually refer to countries as nations or countries . The European nations, the African countries, or the South American countries. The only exception would be the former Soviet countries. Sometimes we refer to them as former Soviet states or eastern block states, but even then they use words to distinguish those states frow our states. Like I showed above. Do other languages not make a distiction between states and nations? Estados Unidos Mexicanos-- United Mexican States, sometimes translated as the United States of Mexico. It's no more or less correct to refer to the USA or EUM as the United States. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:00:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex & Davania In a message dated 97-04-28 06:06:17 EDT, you write: << Anyway, i find this topic about the real origins of the Carnifex really interesting and we should develop Davania according to these lines that Mystaros has traced: once the cradle of the first civilization on Mystara (the Carnifex and lizardkin), it has now reverted to a sparsely populated area with many tribes, especially lizardkin tribes, harassing trespassers. I'd throw in some humanoid crossbreeds and human colonies too, but these last one only restricted to the coastline, or anyway not too far from it or from a major river that flows to the Sea of Dread or to the Izondian Deep, so to leave the heart of Davania to its original inhabitants (lizardkin). There should also be some hidden or lost temples and cities of the Carnifex to discover, with malign and dangerous guards to protect them, etc. >> Let's not forget the Hinterlanders and the remnants of the Milenian Empire! The various interior City States, whose peoples are descended from the Milenians, have diverged greatly in the past thousand years from the culture of their forebears. The way I've developed it, each City State has its own "tank" creature, whether it be a baluchitherum, elephant, wooly rhino or titanothere; many City States also have Giant Eagles (a la Gor). The main holdouts of the Lizard kin on Davania near the Sea of Dread are the coast south of the Amalur Lowlands, the Yasuko Tribal lands (Ochalean exiles dominated by Nagas) and the Manacapuru Tribal Lands (dominated by Serpentines). Arypt, in my campaign, was a lost colony of the Nithians, founded in the early days of Pharonic rule by Horon Ausar I (the first Pharaoh after Orisis, the founder of and a patron Immortal of Nithia). It fell shortly after the fall of Nithia; it was partially destroyed in the Civil War, and the Milenian invasions in later centuries finished the job. There are a few priesthoods who hold the ancient secrets of Arypt, but in 1000 AC, most of the surrounding peoples are of a thoroughly assimilated Milenian/Aryptian society. Again, however, Set works hand in hand with the Serpentines, and he has numerous cells and cults dedicated to his following in the old Aryptian area... and as to the Carnifex ruins, well, there are some things that really, really do not need be disturbed! Actually, I have developed an adventure for the area around Cimarron, combining the best (or is it worst?) of the old Hammer Horror flicks, the "Valley of Gwangi" and the bulk of the Jonah Hex comics... I call it "Showdown at the Bad Bones Corral". The major protagonist is an ancient Carnifex Mummy with his "pet" T. Rex Skeleton... need I say more? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:44:21 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Patrick wrote: >And >Thanatos and Nyx could support Synn, Kol, Halzunthram, & friends. Halzunthram? I thought he died when Alexander Glantri captured him and freed the people of Glantri from Alphatian rule? Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #58 **************************** Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:31:16 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #59 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, April 28 1997 Volume 02 : Number 059 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:19:15 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 11:56 AM 4/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >I wonder if the habit of getting inspiration (even if fairly inaccurate) from present or past cultures has something to do with the comparatively greater success of Mystara overseas than in the USA. Following this idea, I'm curious to see if the Savage Coast has had a special impact on Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking gaming communities? Any thoughts? >Bruce Heard at least in my experience, I think the reason that it was less successful was because it was written for OD&D. In all my years of gaming (around 15), I've never met another OD&D player. I have met a few Mystara players, but only a handfull of them. It seems like, at least here in the US, 99.99% of role-players play AD&D. Mystara simply didn't sell well because it wasn't written specifically for AD&D. I remember telling lots of my friends "It's a great campaign world, you just have to work a little to convert it." Forgotten Realms was just easier to use, so we always ended up there. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:34:21 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Jahova's Plans On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 Jason Buchen wrote: >How do you feel about Jahova's plans do you think they are realistic or do you see any flaws or do you have thoughts to add please do I would like to here what you think of Jahovas plans! I think they're pretty cool. That's just the sort of plans I want my players to come up with once they reach quite high levels. What you should do now is spend ages questing and adventuring to get these plans to come about. You need to tell your DM of your plans, and get him to write adventures based around your quests. If you succeed in all the tasks your DM gives you, I don't see why your plans shouldn't have a good chance of coming about. It woudn't be too hard to donate a special shrine to Vanya to all the Churches of Karameikos - they worship Vanya anyway I think - and then things will proceed from there, with you recruiting a high priesthood, etc.. I wish you luck! Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:03:41 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? >>Since there seems to be a lot of talk about lizard-ish cultures in Davania, let me bounce an idea out there. In the Dragonlord trilogy books, >>the Council of Dragons was up in Norwold. I always thought that it was a >>sort of regional council. I place the Draconic Council of Mystara in the >>large range of mountain in the middle of Davania (Ice Peaks I think...the >>name eludes me right now). I've been combining what I read in the Dragonlord books with the Council of Wyrms boxed set and the FR Draconomicon. >>Anyway, now for my whole reason for saying this: What do you all think about this? Is there some way to connect this with the Carnifex Tyranny? I >>know nothing about the Carnifex, so I'm asking in complete ignorance... :/ >So the Council in the Ice Peaks is a planetary one, or just one for Davania? Why are Gold Dragons renegade, anyway? >The relationship between dragons and Dinosaurs is an interestiong one. The >DragonLord triology says that Dragons are related to elves. I never liked that part. Elves were created by Ordana. >My theory on Dragons: >Dragons come from the outer planes. Their orginin is unknown, though they may have been created by the first Great One. (There has been at least two) The current Great One created the ceremony of sublimation allowing dragons easier to gaing immortal status. Why Dragons now have various colours and abilities is yet to be revealed. >Linking Dragons to Dinosaurs: >If Dinosaurs were the ancestors of the Dragons, Dragons would be a lot younger that suspected and they would originate on Mystara. Dinosaurs could be degenerated Dragons though. This makes the dinos seem rather pathetic IMHO. any thoughts, anyone? Has everyone simply decided to toss out the Dragonlord Trilogy's assertion that the Dragons and elves both came from common Eldar ancestory? Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:08:15 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics (fwd) Forwarded message: >This is a really cool thread! It does make you think.... >For what it's worth, I'll add my own colored stone to the stack -- I was born and raised in southern France, now living in northern Illinois. My business background was hotel management, although I now work in the publishing industry. Southern France... I lived in Auberviliers (near Paris) and there I learned the D&D game (in '81 aprox.). Now I'm living here in Argentina and I'm a Computers Sciences Student... >I wonder if the habit of getting inspiration (even if fairly inaccurate) from present or past cultures has something to do with the comparatively greater success of Mystara overseas than in the USA. Following this idea, I'm curious to see if the Savage Coast has had a special impact on Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking gaming communities? Any thoughts? What is Savage Coast? Here all the stuff we get of TSR is to AD&D... and I had never heard about SC... What have SC so special for Spanish speakers? - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:12:15 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: [Mystara] Gold Box Someone tells to the list than the Gold Box have separated the spells in spheres (It's true?) and if so... can someone send me the list of spell of each sphere... I'm interested to change the way of magic uses in Mystara... (With the pretexte of WotI) -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:21:57 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Traladaran roots, Campaign questions On Sun, 27 Apr 1997 David 'Azure' Leland wrote: >At 03:35 AM 4/28/97 +0100, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >>So, are most of the people on this list students or graduates? >I'm a graduate student. Oh, and when I mentioned my anthro classes I forgot to note that I've taken a couple of awesome classics courses. :) :-) >>I have to say, this is the most diverse list I've ever seen when it comes to diversity of nationality. There are Americans of all kinds ;-) (people from USA, Canada, Argentina), French, Austrians, Italians, Russians, Norwegians, Scottish (any English, Irish or Welsh people here?), Australian... I've never seen such a variety of people. >Most lists I'm on have people from around the world, but it doesn't show as much as it does on the Mystara list. Perhaps that's largely because here people tend to actively relate the perspectives they have from their respective cultures to the game, where on most academic lists it's not as relevant. I'm from the USA, but my mother is from Cuba. My father, while also from the US, has his roots in eastern Europe (e.g. Lithuania). You might be right. I think one of the nicest aspects of the list is hearing about everyone's own take on Mystara and their own different campaigns. So here's a few questions for everyone: What campaigns are you currently runnning/playing in? How long has it (or have they) been running? What races/levels/etc. are the characters? What is the longest-running campaign you have ever played in/run? >Speaking of eastern Europe, what would you all say is the real-world analogue(s) of the Traladaran language in Karameikos? It's seems on the face of it like Russian to me, but I know the culture is more like the Balkans, and is supposed to have Greek/Turkish aspects (given the parallel of domination by a Byzantine-like culture (i.e. Thyatis). I'm trying to think of ways to come up with more names for Traladaran people and places. I was thinking Russian too, with names like Boris and Dmitri, but perhaps it is a little more like Eastern Europe actually - Romania, the Balkans, etc. In any case Traladaran names aren't too hard to come up with - just look at an atlas of these regions and find names that sound similar. Why are you looking for new names, anyway? Are you expanding on Karameikos or the Hollow World Traldar or what? On the subject of the Traldar, has anyone ever noticed the irony in their history with the Thyatians? * Nithians colonise Traladara and deport Antalian tribes to Hinterlands. * Some (Nithian) Traldar flee south and form the Milenian Empire. * Milenian Empire forces Antalian Hinterlander tribes to flee north. * Antalian tribes, influenced by Traldar in Milenia, form Thyatian Empire. * Thyatian Empire conquers Traladara. "What comes around, goes around," as the saying goes. :-) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:18:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arypt On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >The crystal pyramids of Arypt have always been a mystery to me. They closely resemble the ancient nithian and thothian buildings, but they are made of crystal, and moreover they lie about 2000 miles far from Nithia. So far as I know, the crystal part was made up by Michael Roy. IIRC, the Pyramids are described as just Pyramids of the Katapec people in PC2. I may be entirely wrong here... >So my question is: who built them? And have they any connection to the nithians, or can they be the same nithians? And if the nithians are responsible for this, can it be that the Ylaruam nithians who rose to prominence in 1500 BC are descendants of the original Nithians, who in fact developed in Arypt? I don't think so. My own theory is that the Katapec people who built them are related to the Oltec people. The entries in the PWAs on Davania confirm that Oltecs lived in the area prior to the Milenian "invasion". Of course, I claim the Oltecs lived on the southern continent, away from the Thonian Empire prior to the GRoF, so take my ideas for what they're worth. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:14:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica & Carnifex (long) On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >However, the hypothesis of Mystaros is enthralling, and if we follow it then we should place the Carnifex era between 6000 BC (when the elves are thriving nurtured by the forest spirits) and maybe 8000 BC (give the dinosaurs time to evolve into lizardmen and carnifex and then to the carnifex to create the lesser lizardkin). Any thoughts? I'd be more inclined to place them even further back in the timestream than that. No specific date that I have in mind, but the dinosaurs on our earth roamed the planet for billions of years- human history being but a footnote in the history of the earth, where the dinosaurs might fill a chapter or two... Maybe the Carnifex can loosely parallel the Velociraptors. Intelligent lizardlike creatures. Anyone know offhand the era when the VR patrolled the globe? >I too had the same idea again after reading PWA1014!! Also, IIRC there is a reference in PWA1013 about a strange isle in the middle of the Sea of Dread that when explored by some sailors who came across it, was inhabited by strange hostile lizardlike creatures, who repelled the sailors. Probably one of the many islands of Shark-kin in the Sea of Dread. BTW, the Shark-kin seem to me to be obvious amphibious lizard-kin. If we assume that the Thanegioth Archipelago broke off from Davania (no reason to assume that- it's midway between D and Brun), then they, too, could be tied in. Hell, they can be tied in anyway, but... >The isle was then gone when the ship returned to the spot with reinforcements. Could this be a reference to R'lyeh? *evil grin, brushing his hands* Then, if Yig (the Serpent Old ONe) is the deity worshipped by the yuan-ti and the Manacapuru, and if this isle is really R'lyeh, what keeps us from mingling with the Cthulhu mithoi? If you check the Hollow World and Outer world maps, you see that the area in which Cipactli, the Burrower who corrupted Wastoure, is buried is almost directly beneath the Manacapuru/Bogdashkan tribal land area. Need I mention the obvious parallels between the Burrowers and the Great Old Ones of the Cthulhu mythos? Oh, and as for more Manacapuru stuff- Don't forget that Bruce (briefly) described them in an old issue of the Princess Ark (one of their first "stops"). People who looked like snakes, worshipping snake Immortals, and, most significantly, who had some mysterious power that _almost_ allowed them to hold the Princess Ark!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:32:19 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: [Mystara] AD&D Mystara >I can't help thinking that the reasonn Mystara died was because they converted it to AD&D... it seems to me that the D&D sales must have been pretty good for them to consider doing a risky change-over. >Thorfinn. I'll admit, I don't know what the sales demographics for TSR are (or were), but I get the impression that they sell mostly AD&D products. At least, that's the trend I see here in the 'States. I'm just guessing, but I think that most TSR-produced books are sold here, which means AD&D is the biggest chunk of their sales. I actually believe they were trying to increase the sales of the Mystara setting by changing it to AD&D. I think (key words!) that Mystara was converted to AD&D solely for the new gamers. The only "normal" fantasy setting for AD&D is the Forgotten Realms, and new gamers were generally left out of the loop there. They couldn't buy all the older material (or even put a dent in the current material), so they didn't have any real understanding of the world. This would have turned me off of AD&D if I was new. I think that Mystara was converted to AD&D to provide an alternative "normal" fantasy setting to the Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk had already died, and Lankmahr never seemed to take off (they would have presented the same problems anyway). They had a sizable amount of background information already published in the form of the "Known World" Gazetteers, so they used that as the background. Now new gamers could have the "complete set" and finally have an understanding of the world they were using. Unfortunately, few new gamers could afford the $30 box sets or $20 modules after buying the basic books ($65 at least), so the new "normal" setting never took off. I think TSR would probably have been better off selling the new books for $10 and not including all the extras that they did. Cheaper books means more gamers, since price is often a deciding factor in this market. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:05:52 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres WARNING!!! What lies below is a Mark of Amber spoiler! If you want to be surprised by the adventure, Do Not Read Any Further! - ---------- >From: Thorfinn Tait To: mystara-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Date: Monday, April 28, 1997 12:44 PM >On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Patrick wrote: >>And >>Thanatos and Nyx could support Synn, Kol, Halzunthram, & friends. >Halzunthram? I thought he died when Alexander Glantri captured him and freed the people of Glantri from Alphatian rule? As you probably guessed from that big, long warning, Halzunthram is back, and active in Mark of Amber. Forces of Entropy reincarnated him as a Rakshasa and sent him to prevent the return of his old enemy, Etienne. If the adventurers successfully completed MoA, Halzunthram ended up dead again. However, IMC I changed the details slightly and made Halzunthram into a Titan, and I let him escape Chateau d'Ambreville to do more evil. He fits as an ally with Thanatos and Nyx, especially since he was tied through Henri to Synn. On the other hand, there could have been a schism between Synn and Henri if she just let him stay dead, in which case Alphaks or Hel could have raised Henri to help keep Rad out of Glantri, or even Atzanteotl may have been behind it in an attempt to undermine Rafiel, who (IMO) was working for Rad's return. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:09:34 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds >>>I would probably suggest that orcs and elves, at least, can interbreed, >>>due to the numerous connections between the two races that are alluded to >>>in many places (GAZ5 and 10, for example). >>I concur. This is verified in the novel Son of Dawn. One of the minor >Is Son of Dawn a Mystara book?? Did I miss another one??? Yep. It doesn't have a whole lot of particularly Mystaran info, but it is set on everyone's favorite planet:) It is a First Quest Book written for the "young adult" market. It took some effort for me to find it, so good luck! Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:23:17 +1000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Demographics >I wonder if the habit of getting inspiration (even if fairly inaccurate) from present or past cultures has something to do with the comparatively greater success of Mystara overseas than in the USA. Following this idea, I'm curious to see if the Savage Coast has had a special impact on Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking gaming communities? Any thoughts? Well I was pretty chuffed by the Wallara culture - even if in the dragon issue you suggested that you could find Wallaran names by "tossing some words from the country down under in a hat and pulling something out" or something to that effect. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:23:26 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics (fwd) >What is Savage Coast? Here all the stuff we get of TSR is to AD&D... and I had never heard about SC... What have SC so special for Spanish speakers?The Savage Coast is the coast of Brun to the west of Sind, Yavdlom, Slgovich, and Hule. TSR released two boxed sets, Red Steel and The Savage Baronies, detailing this area. They had CDs and were part of TSR's attempt to convert Mystara to AD&D. They recompiled the information, added some more, and put it on-line for free. It is an excellent setting. If you have Champions of Mystara, it is the area described in Haldemar's stories but never detailed in the set. The coast includes rough Mystaran analogues of Inquisition Spain, Conquistador Spain, Moor-dominated Spain, Portugal, Texas, and Argentina (The Pampas), as well as France, England, Australia, and many unique cultures. The on-line books describe around 15 player-character races (including Aranea, Flying Minotaurs, Rakasta, and many more) and a huge area of Mystara. I really recommend that you download them-- They're awesome! Go to http://www.tsrinc.com/ and follow the links (if I remember correctly, go to "Games," "AD&D," and then either "Savage Coast" or "Red Steel.") Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:30:12 +1000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Almanac >>Dumb question... >>Both Ann Dupuis and I would like a copy of the Net/Almanac. Where can we download this new material? Thanks. >>Bruce Heard >It's not a dumb question, because there is no answer. Sean does not yet have the Mystara area up at the TSR website, and last I heard, the MPGN site hadn't yet put the almanac up. Since these are the only legal sites to place it on the web, I guess you can't download it. However, a couple people have been offering to send their formats of it via e-mail: Thorfinn Tait has the almanac in Word Perfect 6.0 format. >Fabrizio Paoli has it in .doc format for Word (BTW, could you please send me that Fabrizio. Thanks) You could also see it in html format on my own or Herve's homepages. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:34:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >WARNING!!! What lies below is a Mark of Amber spoiler! If you want to be surprised by the adventure, Do Not Read Any Further! Crap... WHen I sent my response off a minute ago, I accidentally clipped the spoiler space a line or two short... sorry. :( D'OH!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:33:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >WARNING!!! What lies below is a Mark of Amber spoiler! If you want to be surprised by the adventure, Do Not Read Any Further! >As you probably guessed from that big, long warning, Halzunthram is back, and active in Mark of Amber. Forces of Entropy reincarnated him as a Rakshasa and sent him to prevent the return of his old enemy, Etienne. His old enemy? Unless something to this effect is alluded to in MoA, Etienne was never one of Halzunthram's enemies. Halzunthram's biggest enemy in the past was Lord Alexander Glantri, a Thyatian general, who kicked Halzy's Alphatian butt and formed the beginnings of what we now know as the Principalities of Glantri (minus the wizardly bits, natch. That came later). Etienne, though he may have been around at the time (New Averoigne arrived in Glantri c. 700 AC or so, IIRC), has never previously been mentioned as having anything to do with the Halzunthram rebellion. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:54:07 PDT From: "Jason Buchen" Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Mystara] Jahova's Plans] >>How do you feel about Jahova's plans do you think they are realistic or do you see any flaws or do you have thoughts to add please do I would like to here what >>you think of Jahovas plans! >I think they're pretty cool. That's just the sort of plans I want my players to come up with once they reach quite high levels. What you should do now is spend ages questing and adventuring to get these plans to come about. You need to tell your DM of your plans, and get him to write adventures based around your quests. >If you succeed in all the tasks your DM gives you, I don't see why your plans shouldn't have a good chance of coming about. It woudn't be too hard to donate a special shrine to Vanya to all the Churches of Karameikos - they worship Vanya anyway I think - and then things will proceed from there, with you recruiting a high priesthood, etc.. >I wish you luck! I have spoke to my DM of these plans for Jahova he seems to think very highly of them, but right now i can not game with Jahova because he is stuck with a bunch of PC's that are not being played with because those gamers dont game any more. I have tried several times to get the DM to let me game with Jahova but there is to much plot built around there charecters to just let Jahova leave them standing high and dry and there also on Jahovas ship "THE Follower" I cant just throw there characters over board although I would like to! The plans to build the church of the follower have allready been set into motion! Jahova is hasty with decisions and i dont think his plans will work for him the first or secound time but Jahova will reach his goals and Vania will back him the whole way. - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:54:58 PDT From: "Jason Buchen" Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Mystara] Jahova's Plans] >>How do you feel about Jahova's plans do you think they are realistic or do you see any flaws or do you have thoughts to add please do I would like to here what >>you think of Jahovas plans! >I think they're pretty cool. That's just the sort of plans I want my players to come up with once they reach quite high levels. What you should do now is spend ages questing and adventuring to get these plans to come about. You need to tell your DM of your plans, and get him to write adventures based around your quests. >If you succeed in all the tasks your DM gives you, I don't see why your plans shouldn't have a good chance of coming about. It woudn't be too hard to donate a special shrine to Vanya to all the Churches of Karameikos - they worship Vanya anyway I think - and then things will proceed from there, with you recruiting a high priesthood, etc.. >I wish you luck! I have spoke to my DM of these plans for Jahova he seems to think very highly of them, but right now i can not game with Jahova because he is stuck with a bunch of PC's that are not being played with because those gamers dont game any more. I have tried several times to get the DM to let me game with Jahova but there is to much plot built around there charecters to just let Jahova leave them standing high and dry and there also on Jahovas ship "THE Follower" I cant just throw there characters over board although I would like to! The plans to build the church of the follower have allready been set into motion! Jahova is hasty with decisions and i dont think his plans will work for him the first or secound time but Jahova will reach his goals and Vania will back him the whole way. - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:48:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Crap... >WHen I sent my response off a minute ago, I accidentally clipped the spoiler space a line or two short... sorry. :( >D'OH!!!! Well, after looking at the post on my newsreader, at least, it seems the spoilers are preserved, so I may have been premature. If not, and some of the spoiler info does get through, though, I sincerely apologize... :( ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:05:30 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds At 03:09 PM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Is Son of Dawn a Mystara book?? Did I miss another one??? >Yep. It doesn't have a whole lot of particularly Mystaran info, but it is set on everyone's favorite planet:) It is a First Quest Book written for the "young adult" market. It took some effort for me to find it, so good luck! >Patrick Dang! Now I'm going to have to scour all the local bookstores. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:37:38 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language >The Thyatian invaders are supposed to be the analogue of the Byzantine Empire, so they should be responsible for the Turkish atmosphere. Excuse me!!!But the Byzantine Empire is a Greek Empire and they hadn't absolutely any similarity with turkish empire. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:41:55 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Entropic Immortals On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 "S.B. Wilson" wrote: HHas anyone ever developed a Quest, Trial, Testimony and Task for Entropy? Here is what I came up with: I think there's one in GAZ10, but your one is fine too. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:20:42 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Novels On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: IIs Son of Dawn a Mystara book?? Did I miss another one??? Talking of which, could someone please post a complete list of all Mystara-based novels by TSR? Fabrizio kindly informed me of the existence of some of them, but I need a complete list. Thank you kindly, Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:27:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran roots, Campaign questions In a message dated 97-04-28 21:59:57 EDT, you write: <> Not running or playing in any; I got married a few months back and been too blissed out to find any time to play. I do some writing still, though... <> The last campaign I ran, late last year, the characters were all between 5th and 7th level. We had a majority of Humans, with 2 Elves (one a Shadow Elf Spy) and one Dwarf, a leftover from the age of Blackmoor who was left in a stasis field... <> In Mystara, about 6 months; otherwise I ran a City State of the Invincible Overlord campaign for 2 years (then Magic: The Gathering came along)... IHaving been a student for 6 of the last 8 years, it's been difficult to keep players together... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:18:44 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: aat least in my experience, I think the reason that it was less successful was because it was written for OD&D. In all my years of gaming (around 15), I've never met another OD&D player. I have met a few Mystara players, but only a handfull of them. It seems like, at least here in the US, 99.99% of role-players play AD&D. Mystara simply didn't sell well because it wasn't written specifically for AD&D. I remember telling lots of my friends "It's a great campaign world, you just have to work a little to convert it." Forgotten Realms was just easier to use, so we always ended up there. Curious. Over here in Scotland, I've met at least as many D&D players as AD&D players! Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:16:34 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Mystara] Jahova's Plans] On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 Jason Buchen wrote: II have spoke to my DM of these plans for Jahova he seems to think very highly of them, but right now i can not game with Jahova because he is stuck with a bunch of PC's that are not being played with because those gamers dont game any more. >I have tried several times to get the DM to let me game with Jahova but there is to much plot built around there charecters to just let Jahova leave them standing high and dry and there also on Jahovas ship "THE Follower" I cant just throw there characters over board although I would like to! >The plans to build the church of the follower have allready been set into motion! Jahova is hasty with decisions and i dont think his plans will work for him the first or secound time but Jahova will reach his goals and Vania will back him the whole way. I would suggest you ask your DM to let you play your character "in the future" of the campaign, so that you can still go back and continue with the old adventures. Otherwise you could just persuade him to create a duplicate campaign in which you are the only player left alive, so that you can continue but if the other players return you can still do the old adventures with them too. Either way, you need to create a copy of your current character sheet to keep him "in stasis". I know what it's like to have a PC stuck in limbo while you think up amazing tasks you want to do with them, but can't because your character is not playing at the moment. So go persuade your DM now! :-) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:13:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt In a message dated 97-04-28 17:44:33 EDT, you write: << Ive always believed that the the area around the Adakkian sound was populated by Hin. >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:26:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Mystara I wrote: >>I can't help thinking that the reasonn Mystara died was because they converted it to AD&D... it seems to me that the D&D sales must have been pretty good for them to consider doing a risky change-over. On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: II'll admit, I don't know what the sales demographics for TSR are (or were), but I get the impression that they sell mostly AD&D products. At least, that's the trend I see here in the 'States. I'm just guessing, but I think that most TSR-produced books are sold here, which means AD&D is the biggest chunk of their sales. I actually believe they were trying to increase the sales of the Mystara setting by changing it to AD&D. I agree, I'm sure they did. What I meant was that I think it was the transition which ultimately killed it - though of course that was BY NO MEANS the intent of TSR. (Obviously.) The thing is, the D&D Mystara books must have been doing pretty well, considering the number of them around. FOURTEEN Gazetteers is a lot of stuff. >I think (key words!) that Mystara was converted to AD&D solely for the new gamers. The only "normal" fantasy setting for AD&D is the Forgotten Realms, and new gamers were generally left out of the loop there. They couldn't buy all the older material (or even put a dent in the current material), so they didn't have any real understanding of the world. This would have turned me off of AD&D if I was new. I think that Mystara was converted to AD&D to provide an alternative "normal" fantasy setting to the Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk had already died, and Lankmahr never seemed to take off (they would have presented the same problems anyway). They had a sizable amount of background information already published in the form of the "Known World" Gazetteers, so they used that as the background. Now new gamers could have the "complete set" and finally have an understanding of the world they were using. Unfortunately, few new gamers could afford the $30 box sets or $20 modules after buying the basic books ($65 at least), so the new "normal" setting never took off. I think TSR would probably have been better off selling the new books for $10 and not including all the extras that they did. Cheaper books means more gamers, since price is often a deciding factor in this market. Yes, I think you are probably right here too. I could never get into the Forgotten Realms because, as you say, there just isn't an easy way to start into it. I had two sets (Campaign and City boxes) and a few books, and the only perspective I ever had on FR was on Waterdeep, and that was from the Eye of the Beholder computer games! (Of course I also read the Dark Elf Trilogy, which I loved, but it didn't persuade me to give FR another go because I also liked GAZ13 a lot...) It's just such a shame it had to stop. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #59 **************************** Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:46:33 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #60 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, April 29 1997 Volume 02 : Number 060 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:22:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica, Izondia and Arypt In a message dated 97-04-28 17:44:33 EDT, you write: << Ive always believed that the the area around the Adakkian sound was populated by Hin. >> Very true. The Kenaron River was the "Cradle" of Hin civilization. Shortly after the GRoF clans of Hin started migrating north, along the southern shores of the Addakian Sound, in the area where now stands the ruins of Brasol. Groups of Hin made it as far north as the Isle of Thanegia by 1500 BC, and a whole flotilla left the region of Brasol circa 1300 BC, to settle on Brun (the ancestors of the modern Hin of the Five Shires). With the rise of the Matriarchy of Pelatan (ruled by the Dragon Elves, the last remnants of the Grunland Colony) around 2000 BC, the Hin were spread throughout Western Davania (as slaves), and many Hin fled into the interior of Eastern Davania, so Halflkings are common throughout the Southern Continent. The Hin actually were a large minority in the old Kingdom of Arypt, and whole clans of Aryptian Hin returned to their ancient homeland after the fall of Arypt between 500 and 300 BC; thus, the Hin Kingdom along the Kenaron River actually has more in common with ancient Nithia than with the modern Five Shires! Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 01:01:14 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Mystara At 03:26 AM 4/29/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: III'll admit, I don't know what the sales demographics for TSR are (or were), but I get the impression that they sell mostly AD&D products. At least, that's the trend I see here in the 'States. I'm just guessing, but I think that most TSR-produced books are sold here, which means AD&D is the biggest chunk of their sales. I actually believe they were trying to increase the sales of the Mystara setting by changing it to AD&D. >I agree, I'm sure they did. What I meant was that I think it was the transition which ultimately killed it - though of course that was BY NO MEANS the intent of TSR. (Obviously.) I disagree. I think it was dead before they switched, and the switch was the only way they could justify keeping it on life support. I guess we'll never know, since the people at TSR won't always give us reasons for what they do. >The thing is, the D&D Mystara books must have been doing pretty well, considering the number of them around. FOURTEEN Gazetteers is a lot of stuff. yes, it was popular, at least for a while. By the time they got to GAZ11 or so, it looked like it was going down hill (at least to me). To be honest, I'm impressed with the amount of OD&D stuff that was produced, especially considering how much was produced for the much more popular AD&D. Take a look at the Trivialathon poster in Dragon Magazine #227--roughly a quarter of the books listed on that poster are for OD&D. That type of support is amazing for something that is obviously not the bread-winner for the company. We should count ourselves lucky with what we got. >>I think (key words!) that Mystara was converted to AD&D solely for the new gamers. The only "normal" fantasy setting for AD&D is the Forgotten Realms, and new gamers were generally left out of the loop there. They couldn't buy all the older material (or even put a dent in the current material), so they didn't have any real understanding of the world. This would have turned me off of AD&D if I was new. I think that Mystara was converted to AD&D to provide an alternative "normal" fantasy setting to the Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk had already died, and Lankmahr never seemed to take off (they would have presented the same problems anyway). They had a sizable amount of background information already published in the form of the "Known World" Gazetteers, so they used that as the background. Now new gamers could have the "complete set" and finally have an understanding of the world they were using. Unfortunately, few new gamers could afford the $30 box sets or $20 modules after buying the basic books ($65 at least), so the new "normal" setting never took off. I think TSR would probably have been better off selling the new books for $10 and not including all the extras that they did. Cheaper books means more gamers, since price is often a deciding factor in this market. >Yes, I think you are probably right here too. I could never get into the Forgotten Realms because, as you say, there just isn't an easy way to start into it. I had two sets (Campaign and City boxes) and a few books, and the only perspective I ever had on FR was on Waterdeep, and that was from the Eye of the Beholder computer games! (Of course I also read the Dark Elf Trilogy, which I loved, but it didn't persuade me to give FR another go because I also liked GAZ13 a lot...) >It's just such a shame it had to stop. I won't disagree there. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:05:43 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language >>The Thyatian invaders are supposed to be the analogue of the Byzantine Empire, so they should be responsible for the Turkish atmosphere. EExcuse me!!!But the Byzantine Empire is a Greek Empire and they hadn't absolutely any similarity with turkish empire. Oops, sorry! In British-American history textbooks, the entire history of the Byzantine Empire is limited to "... and the Eastern Roman Empire became known as the Byzantine Empire." As Byzantium was in Turkey, I simply assumed that it was largely Turkish. I know less about Turkey than almost any other country in the world, so please forgive my error. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:12:59 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels >>Is Son of Dawn a Mystara book?? Did I miss another one??? >Talking of which, could someone please post a complete list of all Mystara-based novels by TSR? Fabrizio kindly informed me of the existence of some of them, but I need a complete list. Dungeons and Dragons Books: The Penhaligon Trilogy (by D.J. Heinrich) The Tainted Sword The Dragon's Tomb The Fall of Magic AD&D Mystara Books: Dragonlord Chronicles (by Thorarinn Gunnarsson) Dragonlord of Mystara Dragonking of Mystara Dragonmage of Mystara The Black Vessel (by Morris Simon) (Savage Coast) Dark Knight of Karameikos (by Timothy Brown) First Quest Books (Young Adult Fantasy) Son of Dawn (by Dixie McKeone) Hope this helps. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:30:51 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Re: Mark of Amber >>WARNING!!! What lies below is a Mark of Amber spoiler! If you want to be >>surprised by the adventure, Do Not Read Any Further! >>As you probably guessed from that big, long warning, Halzunthram is back, >>and active in Mark of Amber. Forces of Entropy reincarnated him as a Rakshasa and sent him to prevent the return of his old enemy, Etienne. >His old enemy? Unless something to this effect is alluded to in MoA, Etienne was never one of Halzunthram's enemies. Halzunthram's biggest enemy in the past was Lord Alexander Glantri, a Thyatian general, who kicked Halzy's Alphatian butt and formed the beginnings of what we now know as the Principalities of Glantri (minus the wizardly bits, natch. That came later). >Etienne, though he may have been around at the time (New Averoigne arrived in Glantri c. 700 AC or so, IIRC), has never previously been mentioned as having anything to do with the Halzunthram rebellion. Mark of Amber includes an excellent history of Glantri on the handouts in the box. These handouts state that Etienne agreed to secretly aid the Thyatians, Elves, and Traladarans in their war against the Flaem, and they were aided by a powerful leader, Halzunthram. After the Flaem were crushed, Halzunthram turned on his Elven, Thyatian, and Traladaran allies, and also the secret d'Ambreville allies. Etienne was furious, so he forged an alliance with the old allies (minus Halzunthram and the Alphatians) and the Flaem. Only after this alliance was formed did Alexander Glantri enter the scene. Glantri eventually captured Halzunthram, and the Alphatians abandoned him to his fate. Several entries in the MoA adventure book state that Halzunthram hated Etienne or that they were old enemies, and it says that Halzunthram was brought back by the "Forces of Entropy." Also, MoA states that the treaty of alliance forged by Etienne against the Alphatians was "the first step toward forming today's modern government." I REALLY suggest that you buy Mark of Amber; it's a great accessory. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 02:14:37 -0400 From: MRJohnson Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft: the truth revealed CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: >>The dark lord is the guy featured in "Ship of Horror." I forget his name right now -- Morgoroth? >does anyone know about this character? >or does anyone have "ship of horror"? >any info would be appreciated >thanks >-Crip In "Ship of Horror", the characters sign up on a cursed ship. The captain of the ship was once hired by a mysterious family to transport their dead to a mausoleum on another island. The waters around the island were extremely treacherous, however, so he just dumped the bodies in the sea. Thus, he became cursed. The PC's have to recover the bodies so that they can be given a proper burial. During their investigations, though, they discover that the family who initially hired the ship's captain were also guilty of grave-robbing. In fact, they are a new form of undead created by the necromancer, Meredoth, and they were sending him the bodies for him to experiment on them. The adventure ends with the PC's going to Meredoth's island and battling it out with him. The adventure gives very little background on Meredoth before he came to Ravenloft. There is no mention of where he came from originally or why he ended up as a Lord of Ravenloft. Deciding to make Meredoth come from Mystara is an interesting idea, but I don't think it really fits with the type of people in his realm. The realm does not really resemble any Mystaran country, especially since the people are said to be followers of the god, Poseidon. Although I suppose you could just make them followers of Protius instead. There are enough similarities there. Hope this helps. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:19:47 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels >Talking of which, could someone please post a complete list of all Mystara-based novels by TSR? Fabrizio kindly informed me of the existence of some of them, but I need a complete list. Well, here is what I have. If anyone comes up with any more, please let me know. Penhalgion Trilogy The Tainted Sword The Dragon's Tomb The Fall of Magic Young Quest Series Rogues to Riches Son of Dawn Dragonlord Trilogy Dragonlord of Mystara Dragonking of Mystara Dragonmage of Mystara Dark Knight of Karameikos The Black Vessel There ya go! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:40:31 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-27 00:07:55 EDT, you write: << I'm from the Republic.... (using your logic!)... Remember: USA it's not the only country in america, so you didn't have rights to say sentences like "President of America"... and "The States" it's so insignificant like "The Republic" or "The Reign" or "The Country"... >> Uhh, sorry. I don't know about South America, but in Europe I hear it's common to refer to the USA as "the States". I do realize that the USA isn't the only country in the Americas :) Actually, this is all kinda cool. I knew that D&D was popular all over the world, but I never realized that Mystara was too!!!! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:49:14 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran roots, Campaign questions At 06:21 PM 4/28/97 +0100, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >What campaigns are you currently runnning/playing in? Running post-WotI Karameikos, AC1009. Oliver Jowett is dead and the religious civil war has been going on for about a year now. I adapted Dungeon magazine adventure "A Hot Day in L'Trel" and had my players' characters meet in the city of Kelvin as it burned to a crisp in it's own little 'Great Rain of Fire.' When the cause (an alchemical experiment gone awry just outside of city limits) is determined, Baron/Patriarch Kelvin will go overboard when it comes to prohibiting magic-user magic, i.e. outlawing it in the entire barony and not just the city. Party members were serving as volunteer militia and also investigating the cause of the disaster on the side. In a ploy to unravel a fire cult, they inadvertently became suspect and now one character is dead and the others wanted for suspicion of treason. In taking a circuitous route in their continuing investigation of the fire's cause, they have stumbled upon a cursed village and are dealing with that mess (adaptation of "The Created," a Ravenloft adventure). >How long has it (or have they) been running? This one has been going on since January. >What races/levels/etc. are the characters? Palav, level 2 human Traladaran fighter. Son of a fishing family from a coastal village, recently sheared and looking to prove himself. Vego, level 2 human Traladaran cleric of the Church of Traladara. Patron Immortal is Halav. Caliesan, level 1 Callarii elf (in AD&D lingo, fighter-mage). Daughter of a lieutenant of the King's Elvenguard. Currently in bad condition from an infected wound and under the care of her clan in the forest east of Kelvin. Player may drop out. the former Alexander, level 1 human Thyatian thief. Was the son of a disgraced Thyatian soldier and his wife. Lived in poverty. Recently died mysteriously in the dungeons underneath Castle Kelvin during incarceration and interrogation for suspected involvement in one of the infamous fire cults that have sprung up since Kelvin's disaster. Information culled from him has resulted in a warrant for the rest of the above characters. The spirit of Alexander lives on in undead form because he feels betrayed and foresaken by his compatriots and has cursed them, hence their recent stumbling into a cursed village. Nasty things will continue to happen to them until they first realize they are under a curse, then realize the cause, and finally rectify the situation. Guius Catolus (I don't know the actual spelling yet), level 1 human Thyatian rake. Born rich, currently working as a staff person at the Thyatian embassy in Karameikos to get away from Thyatis for a while where he has offended someone. Investigating Kelvin disaster for Thyatian intelligence purposes, but only as a messenger for information between contacts in Kelvin and the Thyatian ambassador (Osteric). Currently accompanying the party to get information about the disaster, as directed by a Kelvin contact, and due to the bad luck of being with them, is getting adversely affected by their curse. >What is the longest-running campaign you have ever played in/run? Longest running was prior to this one. WotI backdrop, lasted 4 real-time years with almost the same entire group after the first year. Started in Karameikos AC1004. Adventures began in Karameikos, involving such things as King's Festival, Eye of the Traldar, Davino's Complaint, Night's Dark Terror. Things moved to Thyatis very temporarily during the start of the second (real time) year for Arena of Thyatis, then WotI phase I, other Karameikan adventures, an adaptation of the HWA series and other Hollow World adventurers incorporating WotI phase II, Blackmoor adventurers DA1-3, and WotI phase III. >I was thinking Russian too, with names like Boris and Dmitri, but perhaps it is a little more like Eastern Europe actually - Romania, the Balkans, etc. In any case Traladaran names aren't too hard to come up with - just look at an atlas of these regions and find names that sound similar. >Why are you looking for new names, anyway? Are you expanding on Karameikos or the Hollow World Traldar or what? Just want names for NPCs and on-the-fly villages in Karameikos. I do have a half finished adventure in eastern Karameikos involving a ghost/love story and a look into pre-conquest Traladara that I wrote years ago, but I don't think that will be finished (i.e. picked back up again) anytime soon. Later :) / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:07:36 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language In a message dated 97-04-28 22:17:47 EDT, you write: << Excuse me!!!But the Byzantine Empire is a Greek Empire and they hadn't absolutely any similarity with turkish empire. Except that the capitol of Byzantium, Constanople, is in what is now Turkey (it is now Istanbul). Byzantium was neither "greek" nor "turkish", it was Byzantium. It was influenced by the Greek, Turkish, and other cultures that came before it, and it influenced the Greek and Turkish cultures that came after it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:03:33 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres In a message dated 97-04-28 21:15:21 EDT, you write: << His old enemy? Unless something to this effect is alluded to in MoA, Etienne was never one of Halzunthram's enemies. Halzunthram's biggest enemy in the past was Lord Alexander Glantri, a Thyatian general, who kicked Halzy's Alphatian butt and formed the beginnings of what we now know as the Principalities of Glantri (minus the wizardly bits, natch. That came later). Etienne, though he may have been around at the time (New Averoigne arrived in Glantri c. 700 AC or so, IIRC), has never previously been mentioned as having anything to do with the Halzunthram rebellion. Actually, Etienne's involvement in pre-Glantrian politics and wars is detailed quite well in either Mark of Amber or the new Glantrian AD&D boxed set (or both, I filed them together and now I'm not sure which set my handouts came from). Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 02:14:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >at least in my experience, I think the reason that it was less successful was because it was written for OD&D. In all my years of gaming (around 15), I've never met another OD&D player. I have met a few Mystara players, but only a handfull of them. It seems like, at least here in the US, 99.99% of role-players play AD&D. Mystara simply didn't sell well because it wasn't written specifically for AD&D. I remember telling lots of my friends "It's a great campaign world, you just have to work a little to convert it." Forgotten Realms was just easier to use, so we always ended up there. >Aron Reif >areif@vt.edu I can vouch for the veracity of this statment having been laughed at may times for continuing to like Mystara. -Diego------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:19:32 +0800 (WST) From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [Mystara] Campaign questions At 06:21 PM 4/28/97 +0100, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >What campaigns are you currently runnning/playing in? Ok, you asked for it... Dm'ing: ~~~~~~~ Dame Thalla of Mistmoor (currently wandering the HW at the start of WotI). (AD&D, Karameikos, one-on-one) Norse campaign: A group of mismatched adventurers (AD&D, Northern Reaches) Kiber and Aloric: The son of a Ylari noble and a time traveling necromancer from Nithia. (AD&D, Ylaruam) Garan: A paladin, commander of a mercenary company (CHAOS, Karameikos, one-on-one) Playing: ~~~~~~~~ Lynard: Lynard the fire elemaster, who can turn people to ash with a wave of his hand, discovers the one thing he can't defeat....women. (CHAOS) Alvy and Miior: A (married) bard and mage/bard attempt to make themselves very rich and very famous. Well, richer and famouser :) (AD&D, Forgotten Realms) Vertarn: A likely soon-to-be-dead ship's captain, recent victim of a mutiny (by the rest of the party!) is dumped on a world on another plane... (CHAOS) Kasin: Paladin of Morn, she of the bright and shiny teeth. She would rather face a legion of demons than change another nappy again... (AD&D) Ummmm, yeah. A few campaigns I guess. No wonder I play 3 times a week. >How long has it (or have they) been running? 5 years, 1 year, 1 year, 6 months, 1 year, 3 1/2 years, 9 months, 2 years respectively. >What races/levels/etc. are the characters? Human priestess 12th; Dw Fe Fi 6th, Hu Fe Druidess 7th, SE Fe Shaman 7th, SE Ma Th 6th, Gn I/Th 4/4th, Dw Ma Fi 6th, Faenre Windsinger 6th; Hu Ma Psionist/Fighter 11/10th, Hu Ma Necromancer/Priest 9th/10th; Approximately Hu Ma Pal 7th; Approximately Hu Ma Mage 18th; HE Ma Bard 13th, Hu Fe Mage/Bard 11/8th; Most approximately Hu Ma Fi 2nd, except one ELf Fe Fi 1st. Hu Fe Pal 10th, Hu Ma Mage 12th, Hu Ma Pr 11th. >What is the longest-running campaign you have ever played in/run? 5 years (Thalla, which is still going). Whew! Unfortunately I don't have anything nice to give you for reading through all of this! - -- Glenn Butcher glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au TVW Telethon Institute for Child Health Research I currently have a large email backlog. I'll get up to it someday, honest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:58:08 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Detect Magic Hi! >Just a plain technic question: >Can a Detect Magic reveal an Invisible character or one that is Invisible to mortals? OD&D: Detect Magic: ... the spellcaster will see a glow surround all magical objects, creatures and places which are visible and within range ... ------- AD&D: Detect Magic: Nothing in the description mentions invisible things! I would (and will) rule IMC, that Detect Magic will not or only with a certain change detect Invisble things, as Mystara is more based on O=D&D. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:03:16 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language >Except that the capitol of Byzantium, Constanople, is in what is now Turkey (it is now Istanbul). >Byzantium was neither "greek" nor "turkish", it was Byzantium. It was influenced by the Greek, Turkish, and other cultures that came before it, and it influenced the Greek and Turkish cultures that came after it. It happens to be a Greek and I know very well that Byzantine Empire is indeed Greek Empire,were GREEK LANGUAGE were spoken. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:58:15 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Hi! >I wonder if the habit of getting inspiration (even if fairly inaccurate) from present or past cultures has something to do with the comparatively greater success of Mystara overseas than in the USA. Following this idea, I'm curious to see if the Savage Coast has had a special impact on Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking gaming communities? Any thoughts? I find it very interesting that Mystara sold better overseas (which is strange to say for an Austrian). Bruce, are you referring to the AD&D Mystara only, or also to the OD&D-products? >at least in my experience, I think the reason that it was less successful was because it was written for OD&D. In all my years of gaming (around 15), I've never met another OD&D player. I have met a few Mystara players, but only a handfull of them. It seems like, at least here in the US, 99.99% of role-players play AD&D. Mystara simply didn't sell well because it wasn't written specifically for AD&D. I remember telling lots of my friends "It's a great campaign world, you just have to work a little to convert it." Forgotten Realms was just easier to use, so we always ended up there. That´s the same here! But I like that very much!!!! Everyone has played once in a while in the Realms, and many own some books about them. So there are very little secrets the DM knows and the players don´t know. But with Mystara , it´s quite the opposite! I´m the only person, I know personally, which owns Gazetters or the HW-seriers, etc.. So there are really still secrets, which I don´t have to think of myself. ("Who is talking to me? Khelben Blackstaff, yeah I know he is a secret ruler of the city, has one staff of power, ...") A little problem I have with this is the net, where my players can also look at Mystara-sites, and learn something, they shouldn´t! *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:13:06 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language Patrick wrote: >>>The Thyatian invaders are supposed to be the analogue of the Byzantine Empire, so they should be responsible for the Turkish atmosphere. EEExcuse me!!!But the Byzantine Empire is a Greek Empire and they hadn't absolutely any similarity with turkish empire. OOops, sorry! In British-American history textbooks, the entire history of the Byzantine Empire is limited to "... and the Eastern Roman Empire became known as the Byzantine Empire." As Byzantium was in Turkey, I simply assumed that it was largely Turkish. I know less about Turkey than almost any other country in the world, so please forgive my error. Patrick Byzantium was not in turkey.It was in GREECE.Then the turks came and got land which was land from Byzantium,as well as slavians.Yugoslavia,albania,bulgaria,rumania,turkey and some other counties are now in land that once was land of BYZANTIUM,GREECE.So please everybody don't say the things you said in your mail. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:52:13 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >I'm afraid I disagree with the Russian-Turkish-Balkan crossbeed comment. Romanians and Moldovans speak a Latin-based language that has been influenced by Slavic languages, but Romanian is still definitely a Romance language. Many of the names in Karameikos are distinctly Romanian (pretty much anything ending with -escu, and some of the -inevs). I think that the Traladaran culture is just kind of a fusion of various Eastern European cultures-- Romanian, Bulgarian, Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian, Bosnian, etc. The Thyatian invaders are supposed to be the analogue of the Byzantine Empire, so they should be responsible for the Turkish atmosphere. As far I agree with Eastern European cultures similarity to Traladarans. However, what's this about Turkish atmosphere? The closest thing to Turkish names on Mystara is Hule. Thyatis is definitely Byzantine/Roman, but they are not Turkish (well, Byzantines had possessions in Turkey, but it wasn't even called Turkey at that time). Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:12:18 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >WARNING!!! What lies below is a Mark of Amber spoiler! If you want to be surprised by the adventure, Do Not Read Any Further! >---------- >>From: Thorfinn Tait To: mystara-l@lists.io.com >>Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Date: Monday, April 28, 1997 12:44 PM >>On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Patrick wrote: >>>And >>>Thanatos and Nyx could support Synn, Kol, Halzunthram, & friends. >>Halzunthram? I thought he died when Alexander Glantri captured him and freed the people of Glantri from Alphatian rule? AAs you probably guessed from that big, long warning, Halzunthram is back, and active in Mark of Amber. Forces of Entropy reincarnated him as a Rakshasa and sent him to prevent the return of his old enemy, Etienne. If the adventurers successfully completed MoA, Halzunthram ended up dead again.. However, IMC I changed the details slightly and made Halzunthram into a Titan, and I let him escape Chateau d'Ambreville to do more evil. That's interesting, but a titan? I thought titans are servants of non-entropic immortals. Fiends serve Entropy. So wouldn't it be more realistic to change him to a fiend? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:31:06 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds >I concur. This is verified in the novel Son of Dawn. One of the minor characters in the novel is an elf/orc crossbreed who leads a band of mercenary >humanoids. The book makes the point that he combines the strength of his orcish parent with the grace and intelligence of his elvish parent. thats odd the orc entry in the monstrous manual states "Orcs will crossbreed with virtually every humanoid and demihuman species except elves, with whom they cannot." i assumed this has to do with "elven infertility" iirc elves can breed with humans, dwarves(rumored) but nothing else - -Crip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 17:03:22 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-28 22:17:47 EDT, you write: ><< Excuse me!!!But the Byzantine Empire is a Greek Empire and they hadn't aabsolutely any similarity with turkish empire. >Except that the capitol of Byzantium, Constanople, is in what is now Turkey (it is now Istanbul). >Byzantium was neither "greek" nor "turkish", it was Byzantium. It was influenced by the Greek, Turkish, and other cultures that came before it, and it influenced the Greek and Turkish cultures that came after it. There were no Turkish cultures in the area before Byzantium. Turks originally lived in Central Asia (north of Iran). They only started moving towards the west in 11th century. Byzantium was influenced by Roman and Greek cultures the most. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:22:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? In a message dated 97-04-29 01:55:50 EDT, you write: << Has everyone simply decided to toss out the Dragonlord Trilogy's assertion that the Dragons and elves both came from common Eldar ancestory? Patrick >> I have simply thrown out the entire Dragonlord Trilogy, as I threw out all "Official" Mystaran "literature" (the Penhaligon Trilogy, the Dark Knight of Karameikos, the Black Vessel and the Son of Dawn). I found them all to be substandard literature at best, and at worst they had little or nothing to do with Mystara save names. In fact, I couldn't even get through most of the Son of Dawn; I stopped reading at the point where a "Hattian Half-Orc" made an appearance... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:15:14 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Campaign questions >What campaigns are you currently runnning/playing in? How long has it (or have they) been running? What races/levels/etc. are the characters? What is the longest-running campaign you have ever played in/run? i started DMing about a year ago so i feel that im starting to get used to it i DMed a few PCs into Mark of Amber intertwined with the Castle Amber module now they are wanted by some major NPCs some with good intentions and some with bad ones (Synn isnt too happy about her plan to control the influence of Nouvelle Avergoine being ruined by them) btw etienne did return as an immortal (real good roleplaying + a lot of luck) one of those PCs have walked into my other campaign DA1 or DDA1 "Adventures in Blackmoor" which i have just begun i am involved in 3 campaigns that i have PCs in 1) it currently takes place in SW Davania though there are a few ties to the known world where the campaign may be headed soon the adventuring party consits of many people from all backrounds but the majority are from a communistic empire in NW Davania its been running for 8 years, i got involved 5 years ago races in the group include humans, a minotaur and every demihuman race execpt gnomes levels range between 6 and 9 many others have come and gone the problem we are facing is a possible world wide threat from a thought to be extinct race of creatures 2) in karameikos i control a wandering mystic type from an oriental based island called "Shaolin" south of immortals arm he is level 8 and the campaign has been going on for 2 years 3)this one takes place in the thunder rift accessory which the DM placed north of the known world i control a multiclassed elf 10th level thief / 5th level fighter the campaign has been going on for 5 years the elves and humans trying to work together because both groups have been recently decimated! the population is dwindleing for the humans, surface + shadow elves, dwarves, bugbear, and orcs there is a dragon in the rift, a large undead presence, shadow elves, sollux, lizardmen and a thought to be extinct creature which i mentioned in my davania campaign i have done little roleplaying recently however our group had 4 main people one left because he got married (an uncurable curse which often takes our most precious roleplayers) {:^(o another couldnt continue playing because of his college career so now the 2 of us are looking for other players we live in a Boston suburb so if anyone out there is interested in playing email me privately and ill tell you more about the campaigns or whatever else youd need to know - -Crip crlptonite@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:00:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Names An excellent source for names of all kinds is _The Writer's Digest Character Naming Sourcebook_ by Sherrilyn Kenyon (ISBN 0-89879-632-6) $18.95. I have found it EXTREMELY useful over the years. It has almost every culture you can think of (with the unfortunate exception of Romanian and Turkish, naturally), and it tells you what every name means, if at all possible. Ask your local Barnes & Noble bookstore; they will probably have to special order it. Another moderate sized and cheaper source is _The Everyone Everywhere List_ by Magic & Tactics Unlimited. It goes into NO detail about the names, but it does have Romanina and Turkish (very popular among the Gothic gamers). It only costs $5.00, and your local hobby shop should be able to get it (through Chessex Distribution, if nowhere else). Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:48:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... In a message dated 97-04-29 08:15:14 EDT, you write: << I disagree. I think it was dead before they switched, and the switch was the only way they could justify keeping it on life support. I guess we'll never know, since the people at TSR won't always give us reasons for what they do. >> My understading is that this was the case, and it was switched to AD&D to try and save it; it was "fortunate" that they needed a "Newbie" line at the time, so Mystara lived on, after a fashion, for several more months... Here's another Question: IF Mystara were bought by another game company (other than WotC), which company would you like to see buy it and why? Which other system would you like to see used for Mystara and why? With WotC buyin TSR, it is not impossible that another company could buy Mystara and republish it using another game system (mere speculation mind you). What would be your preferences? Mystaros Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:12:03 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Detect Magic At 10:57 28-04-97 +0000, DM wrote: >Just a plain technic question: >Can a Detect Magic reveal an Invisible character or one that is Invisible to mortals? >Thankx for your time >DM I would say the detect magic would detect magic in the general direction the invisible person was, but not revealing him. Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:41:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language In a message dated 97-04-29 04:47:37 EDT, you write: << Except that the capitol of Byzantium, Constanople, is in what is now Turkey (it is now Istanbul). Byzantium was neither "greek" nor "turkish", it was Byzantium. It was influenced by the Greek, Turkish, and other cultures that came before it, and it influenced the Greek and Turkish cultures that came after it. HOkay, let's head this one off real quick. At the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD (or 480 AD, depending on your preference) the Roman Empire was effectively reunified under the leadership of the Emperor in Constantinople (formerly Byzantium, or Byzantion). The Eastern Roman Empire really should have been called the Greek Empire, as the language and culture which predominated was Greek, not Roman. The Byzantine Empire lasted gfrom 476 through the anticlimactic capture of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453. For a full century, GREEK culture predominated in the areas controlled by the Empire; only after the fall of Constantinople was it renamed "Istanbul". Turkish influence then became felt throughout the region, but to ever claim that the Byzantine Empire was Turkish is to invite an invasion of righteously furious Greeks through your door. Thyatis was influenced by the Byzantine Empire at it's height, somehwere between 600 and 1000 AD. The "Turks" of Mystara are the peoples of Great Hule and their allied nomads from the Yazak Steppes, who have begun knocking on the doors of the East, in Darokin. And like the historical Turk, the Huleans are not knocking politely... nothing against Turks at all, mind you, simply an historical truth... There is an excellent REH story about the Turks that could be used for inspiration for the Huleans... "The Shadow of the Vulture" is about the siege of Vienna, definite inspiration for a Hulean siege of Darokin... it also has some great character inspirations; in fact, the Red Sonya of this story was the inspiration for the Red Sonja of the Hyborean Age of Conan... Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #60 **************************** Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:57:27 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #61 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, April 30 1997 Volume 02 : Number 061 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:04:11 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] Campaign questions >What campaigns are you currently running/playing in? >What races/levels/etc. are the characters? I'm currently participating in three different campains: 1) I DM a group of, what is now four and a half players (My husband is an itenerant player. His character is an NPC when he's not around). The group is currently 'based' in and around Darokin City. The characters are from far afield: a Female Northlands Cleric of Odin, a Thyatian MU, a 'Thyatian' Fighter (raised in Thyatis, but not born there. He's just recently discovered that he's really from the Northlands), one very /young/ female Alfheim Elf (She looks 16-17, which puts her around 80 or so), and a Mystic from Sind. The Mystic just joined the group -- there used to be a Thief from a small Darokin community, but the player moved to Seattle, WA, so we had his character go off in one direction 'temporarily', with promises to 'catch up' with the rest of the characters sometime later, and we invited someone who'd been wanting to join in our game to play. The characters are currently between 3rd to 5th level, but I started them all at 3rd level, except for the Elf who was put at 2nd with enough XP to be halfway to 3rd. (I did this because the group was formed from a number of individuals who had all been playing in an earlier campaign that had disolved due to 'political' problems. Since we'd been campaigning at that level before, I decided to start my campaign at the same point) 2) I play Katarina Jenner, a female MU from Minrothad in a campaign based in Karameikos (sp?). Kat is 2nd level, currently a devoted member of the Devices Guild and has aspirations towards becoming a Merchant Princess. She is nominally the leader of an adventuring group which she formed at the start of the campaign for various and sundry reasons (and got in a bit of trouble with the guild because of it too!). The group currenly consists of a Traladaran Fighter who grew up near Threshold, a female Traladaran 'Theif' who grew up near Rugalov Village, a Northlands Cleric of Thor, and an NPC who is a roguish fighter from Darokin. I put 'Thief' in quotes because, as a Player, I happen to know that she /really/ is part Sidhe. However, although the characters are aware of some of her odder abilities and difficulties (that allergy to iron is a real bummer, but invisibility at will is pretty useful...) none of us know exactly why she is that way. She is currently seeking her 'father' who was an odd, elf like individual who enamoured her mother and then disappeared. The Northlands Cleric was actually rescued by the group in a recent adventure -- the player had just joined the group -- and he stayed on with the rest of us originally because he feels he has 'weirguild' (sp?). The relationship is slowly changing over time of course -- as the Cleric gets to know us, he is slowly coming to like us as companions. The characters are all around 2nd/3rd level now, but started at 1st. 3) I play Andrea 'Andy' Tschoroff, a female Fighter in an AD&D Mystara game (although the DM for this game uses the OD&D Gazetters). This campaign has just started, so everyone is 1st level. It is also a masive campaign which the DM has been planning for about 10 years (or so he says) so that he already knows exactly which adventure modules he will be taking us through, and who all the important NPCs are. It started off in Luln, and we were promptly caught by Slavers (and then escaped) after the town of Luln was destroyed. The DM has developed some special AD&D type classes, and my Fighter is one of these. In particular, she belongs to a group called the Order of the Lion Blade which is known for being 'the best' for honour, courage and fighting ability. The order has an oriental flavour to it as they use the Katana, and do not allow /anyone/ outside the order to do so. The DM has also completely changed how magic is done, but as I don't play an MU, I have very little idea how it works. The character group is together mostly because of our short captivity together. Besides Andy, there is a Palidin, a Cleric, a Ranger/Forester, a female MU and an NPC Thief. The only two characters who knew each other before were the Cleric and the Palidin, who had been travelling together before coming to Luln. >What is the longest-running campaign you have ever played in/run? The longest-running 'game time' campaign I ever played in was an AD&D game that I played back in early highschool. The game itself ran over about a year and a bit and we played at least once a week, and sometimes two or three times. I don't remember too much about the campaign itself (it was a /long/ time ago -- about 16 years ago) other than that my character (one of my favourites) Rivalyn "Phoenix" deCypress, a Half-Elf fighter-thief went all the way from 1st/1st level to something like 13th/14th or 14th/15th level before we halted the game. The longest-running 'real time' campaign I've ever been involved with would be the game I currently DM, which has been running in 'real time' for about three and a half years. But we don't play as often as we'd like (School has been the main reason), sometimes only playing once every one or two months, so only about 5 or 6 months of 'game time' has occured. The game where I play the Minrothaddan MU has been running in 'real time' for a bit less -- say two and a half years -- but we've been campaigning in 'game time' for a bit longer -- say 7 or 8 months. There. More than you ever wanted to know about my current Gaming Activities. ;-) Hope others share. Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:25:57 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels At 10:12 PM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >AD&D Mystara Books: >The Black Vessel (by Morris Simon) (Savage Coast) DOH!!! that makes TWO that I have completely missed. I thought that they decided not to put this one out at the same time they halted production of all the other Savage Coast stuff. Guess I'll have to go book hunting when I have some free time. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:10:48 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics I'm 18 years old and from The Netherlands. I'm still at high school (If I'm right. The Dutch school system is different from the US one). I plan on studying economics or something related to computers when I finish my school. Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:34:09 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 02:14 AM 4/29/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >>at least in my experience, I think the reason that it was less successful was because it was written for OD&D. In all my years of gaming (around 15), I've never met another OD&D player. I have met a few Mystara players, but only a handfull of them. It seems like, at least here in the US, 99.99% of role-players play AD&D. Mystara simply didn't sell well because it wasn't written specifically for AD&D. I remember telling lots of my friends "It's a great campaign world, you just have to work a little to convert it." Forgotten Realms was just easier to use, so we always ended up there. >>Aron Reif >>areif@vt.edu >I can vouch for the veracity of this statment having been laughed at may times for continuing to like Mystara. >-Diego Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...er, oh, you mean by people who don't like Mystara, don't you... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:01:05 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Demographics In a message dated 97-04-28 19:59:55 EDT, Shawn writes: << Well I was pretty chuffed by the Wallara culture >> ...chuffed? Is this an Aussie word? :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:12:16 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: >>On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >>>Lets say MoA is set in 1012. If Rad ends up as an Immortal, he remains passive for a few years, if not, he becomes immortal around 1015. I any of these cases he will be Immortal in 1015. The main difference will be this: If Rad has to regain immortality on his own, then he will need a patron, who will have great influence over him later. I suggest that Rafiel will sponsor him, thus making them great allies. This will be a good reason why Rafiel will let Rad study the CoS according to my other posting. >>Couldn't Rad just use the Radiance to make himself Immortal again? At least if the spell still works. >>And I think Rad and Rafiel are already allies since WotI. >If the Radience now produces Entrophical Immortals, that would not be so wise. So Rad should Embark on the path of th Paragon. I think he's kind of done this once already hasn't he. >Quest: find an Artifact The nucleus of the spheres >Trial: Make a new magical item I'm sure some of the enchantments on Castle Sylaire were Ettienne's work. If not all of them. >Testemony:recruit6 prentices who must rise at least 12 lvls in his service. transform the land around his home for 100 miles. He's the head of the Great School of Mage Craft, I'm sure at least 6 people have risen 12 levels while he was teaching them. He also transported most of Nouvelle Avergnion to Glantri from Avergnion >Task: duel 8 magicusers of at least 25th level. He lives in Glantri. He's probably dueled everyone there worth dueling at least once. >Nothing Rad couln't manage I guess, though 5 years isn't that long a time. He could perhaps rather use the Chamber of the Stars to aquire Immortality? Rafiel would probably let him, since as you say they are already allies. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:08:16 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Novels ><< Has everyone simply decided to toss out the Dragonlord Trilogy's assertion tthat the Dragons and elves both came from common Eldar ancestory? I thought it was particularly far-fetched also, but I was just trying to tie it in to what was posted before about the elves being taken from Yuan-ti stock. Instead of the draconic history of elves and dragons coming from the Eldar, they could both be carnifex related...elves from Yuan-ti and dragons from carnifex. Just a thought. >I have simply thrown out the entire Dragonlord Trilogy, as I threw out all "Official" Mystaran "literature" (the Penhaligon Trilogy, the Dark Knight of Karameikos, the Black Vessel and the Son of Dawn). I found them all to be substandard literature at best, and at worst they had little or nothing to do with Mystara save names. In fact, I couldn't even get through most of the Son of Dawn; I stopped reading at the point where a "Hattian Half-Orc" made an appearance... The thing that really got me in the Dragonlord trilogy was the appearance of ambassadors from nations that didn't even exist at that time (ie. Darokin). I realize that not everyone is completely familiar with the Mystaran timeline, but if you're going to write a book about it, at least do a little historical research... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language In a message dated 97-04-29 15:07:52 EDT, you write: << For a full century, >> Sorry. I meant for over a full MILLENIUM... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:00:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Georgios Dimitrios Milonas wrote: >>Except that the capitol of Byzantium, Constanople, is in what is now Turkey (it is now Istanbul). >>Byzantium was neither "greek" nor "turkish", it was Byzantium. It was influenced by the Greek, Turkish, and other cultures that came before it, and it influenced the Greek and Turkish cultures that came after it. IIt happens to be a Greek and I know very well that Byzantine Empire is indeed Greek Empire,were GREEK LANGUAGE were spoken. Yes, but it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Zthe thytains therefore could be said to be a Roman/ Greek/ Turkish people. Personally though I see the Thaytains as being the Romans, the Kerendans (sp?) as the Spanish, and the Haittans (sp?) as being the Germans making mainland Thytis as more like western europe. Tel Akbir would then be much more like Byzantium in the fact that it was both Arab and Thytain. I need to go look at the gazatter a bit more though, if I can find it. -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 17:12:36 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-29 07:36:13 EDT, Peter writes: << I find it very interesting that Mystara sold better overseas (which is strange to say for an Austrian). Bruce, are you referring to the AD&D Mystara only, or also to the OD&D-products? >> Either -- but mostly original D&D. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:43:26 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >alphabet ("Cyrillic"). The Boldavian language of Glantri is a Voldavian dialect with strong admixture of Flaemish ("Russian"), Flaemish is Dutch, not Russian IMO. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 03:06:35 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language Diego wrote: Yes, but it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Zthe tthytains therefore could be said to be a Roman/ Greek/ Turkish people. It seems you don't have understand a thing about Byzantium.For more information read my mail, Aleksej Andrievskij's mail and Mystaros' mail and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:31:53 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: UUhh, sorry. I don't know about South America, but in Europe I hear it's common to refer to the USA as "the States". I do realize that the USA isn't the only country in the Americas :) Very common, actually. Over here people routinely call the USA "the US", "the States", "America", of course "USA" and "the US of A". >Actually, this is all kinda cool. I knew that D&D was popular all over the world, but I never realized that Mystara was too!!!! It is cool. I suppose that's mostly because Mystara basically IS D&D - there aren't any other game worlds for D&D. But then again, it's also because Mystara is such a cool world. :-) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:18:00 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... At 11:48 AM 4/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Here's another Question: IF Mystara were bought by another game company (other than WotC), which company would you like to see buy it and why? Which other system would you like to see used for Mystara and why? With WotC buyin TSR, it is not impossible that another company could buy Mystara and republish it using another game system (mere speculation mind you). What would be your preferences? I guess I wouldn't mind if Steve Jackson Games bought the rights for it and made it for GURPS. I've played GURPS a few times, and it's alright. Character generation is a pain, though (it takes me HOURS to create a character in GURPS). I'd prefer if it stays with TSR, actually. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 02:16:33 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 StarHawk wrote: >>If the Radience now produces Entrophical Immortals, that would not be so wise. So Rad should Embark on the path of th Paragon. >I think he's kind of done this once already hasn't he. Yes, but an Immortal becoming mortal again is a little different... can he just get a sponsor and say "'Eh, I was Immortal once, clearly I deserve to be again?" (in a French accent ;-) and thats's it? I would rule for a player that they have to go through it all again. Especially for Etienne since he never did it in the first place. Perhaps it would all count, though, since he hasn't used it as a Path before. But I don't think a sponsor would be interested in all of that stuff. His new sponsor would set him new tasks. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:37:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Novels In a message dated 97-04-29 16:45:44 EDT, you write: << The thing that really got me in the Dragonlord trilogy was the appearance of ambassadors from nations that didn't even exist at that time (ie. Darokin) >> I was under the impression that the Dragonlord series took place in the mid 500's AC. At that time Darokin was a Kingdom under the Attleson Kings. Of course, if the ambassador was from the Darokin Diplomatic Corps, then, they were waaay off of the timeline... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 02:12:16 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Demographics On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: IIn a message dated 97-04-28 19:59:55 EDT, Shawn writes: ><< Well I was pretty chuffed by the Wallara culture >> >...chuffed? Is this an Aussie word? :) Funny you mention it, actually, because I sent Shawn a message about it too. It's actually a Scottish/British word, meaning pleased. I was surprised to see it being used by an Australian since it's a slang word over here. Thorfinn. PS - it's a cool word, though, isn't it? :-) ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 02:17:45 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: AAt 10:12 PM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >>AD&D Mystara Books: >>The Black Vessel (by Morris Simon) (Savage Coast) >DOH!!! that makes TWO that I have completely missed. I thought that they decided not to put this one out at the same time they halted production of all the other Savage Coast stuff. Guess I'll have to go book hunting when I have some free time. Talking of which, what are all the Savage Coast products they printed? Did the Orcs' Head Gazetteer ever see print? Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:20:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: [Mystara] About Real World Byzantium, was Traladaran language On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Georgios Dimitrios Milonas wrote: >Diego wrote: >Yes, but it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Zthe ttthytains therefore could be said to be a Roman/ Greek/ Turkish people. IIt seems you don't have understand a thing about Byzantium.For more information read my mail, Aleksej Andrievskij's mail and Mystaros' mail and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. MMystaros Would you folks mind using something akin to the above subject I've changed this to? I am trying to follow the Traladaran language thread which I started and am not particularly interested in listening to people call others "barbarians." Thanks very much, David Leland P.S. I hope this wasn't out of league on my part, but I'm sure Leroy will let me know if I was. :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:38:46 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels At 02:17 AM 4/30/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: AAAt 10:12 PM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >>>AD&D Mystara Books: >>>The Black Vessel (by Morris Simon) (Savage Coast) >>DOH!!! that makes TWO that I have completely missed. I thought that they decided not to put this one out at the same time they halted production of all the other Savage Coast stuff. Guess I'll have to go book hunting when I have some free time. >Talking of which, what are all the Savage Coast products they printed? Did the Orcs' Head Gazetteer ever see print? >Thorfinn. no, most of them never saw a dealer's shelf. The only ones actually published (in book format) were the Red Steel box set and the Savage Baronies expansion. Everything else was strictly online. Kind of a shame... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:07:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... In a message dated 97-04-29 18:55:52 EDT, Mystaros@aol.com writes: << Here's another Question: IF Mystara were bought by another game company (other than WotC), which company would you like to see buy it and why? Which other system would you like to see used for Mystara and why? With WotC buyin TSR, it is not impossible that another company could buy Mystara and republish it using another game system (mere speculation mind you). What would be your preferences?>> That is a tough one -- since the D&D game mechanics are very much implicit in the world of Mystara, I would have a tough time imagining it working under a radically different game system, especially one that is NOT level-based. I would thus rule out Chaosium's system, which would otherwise be my first choice for nearly any RPG campaign. White Wolf's Storyteller system and GURPS would also be ruled out. Also, while I liberally looted Ars Magica for ideas for my Glantri-based campaign (guess what I had those wizards calling fighters behind their backs?), I can't see using that system either. Given the suitable level-based systems, my order of preference would probably be as follows: 1) ICE's Rolemaster -- without question the most suitable system next to D&D. 2) Chivalry and Sorcery -- perhaps a better match than Rolemaster, but the system is currently undergoing a new revision, and I would not rate it first until I have had the chance to see it. 3) Palladium -- Compatible with D&D, but I don't particularly care for the rules system. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:35:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Entropic Immortals In a message dated 97-04-29 03:26:50 EDT, sbwilson@earthlink.net (S.B. Wilson) writes: << Has anyone ever developed a Quest, Trial, Testimony and Task for Entropy? Another possibility might be the "Path of the Conqueror" in the "Orcs of Thar" gazetteer. While an individual following this path may not do much to promote the cause of Entropy, a large number of candidates competing for Immortality in this Sphere would be another matter entirely. And I would not be at all surprised if this Sphere has more candidates than the others -- with relatively fewer of them actually attaining Immortality. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:40:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Georgios Dimitrios Milonas wrote: >>The Thyatian invaders are supposed to be the analogue of the Byzantine Empire, so they should be responsible for the Turkish atmosphere. EExcuse me!!!But the Byzantine Empire is a Greek Empire and they hadn't absolutely any similarity with turkish empire. Excuse me, but i could swear that the Byzantine empire was actually a spin-off of the Roman Empire. The Byzantines then became a separate entity and developed along slightly more Eastern lines. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:43:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: aaat least in my experience, I think the reason that it was less successful was because it was written for OD&D. In all my years of gaming (around 15), I've never met another OD&D player. I have met a few Mystara players, but only a handfull of them. It seems like, at least here in the US, 99.99% of role-players play AD&D. Mystara simply didn't sell well because it wasn't written specifically for AD&D. I remember telling lots of my friends "It's a great campaign world, you just have to work a little to convert it." Forgotten Realms was just easier to use, so we always ended up there. >Curious. Over here in Scotland, I've met at least as many D&D players as AD&D players! >Thorfinn. >===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he hhimself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk >===================================================================== Well, I'm from the US and I still think that OD&D is ten times better than AD&D. Feel free to disagree, but you'll not soon change my mind. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:05:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >>alphabet ("Cyrillic"). The Boldavian language of Glantri is a Voldavian dialect with strong admixture of Flaemish ("Russian"), < >Flaemish is Dutch, not Russian IMO. >************** >Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it >DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master >Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html Flaemish is most definitely Dutch. It relates to the fact that in Belgium there are French speaking and Dutch speaking peoples (Flemish, in real life). This is like the averoignian part of glantri. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:02:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Diego wrote: >On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Georgios Dimitrios Milonas wrote: >>>Except that the capitol of Byzantium, Constanople, is in what is now Turkey (it is now Istanbul). >>>Byzantium was neither "greek" nor "turkish", it was Byzantium. It was influenced by the Greek, Turkish, and other cultures that came before it, and it influenced the Greek and Turkish cultures that came after it. IIIt happens to be a Greek and I know very well that Byzantine Empire is indeed Greek Empire,were GREEK LANGUAGE were spoken. >Yes, but it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Zthe thytains therefore could be said to be a Roman/ Greek/ Turkish people. PPersonally though I see the Thaytains as being the Romans, the Kerendans (sp?) as the Spanish, and the Haittans (sp?) as being the Germans making mainland Thytis as more like western europe. Tel Akbir would then be much more like Byzantium in the fact that it was both Arab and Thytain. I need to go look at the gazatter a bit more though, if I can find it. >-Diego Diego, I couldn't have said it better myself. Kerendans are debatably Spanish or Italian IMO. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:28:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... Aron Reif pontificated: >I guess I wouldn't mind if Steve Jackson Games bought the rights for it and made it for GURPS. I've played GURPS a few times, and it's alright. Character generation is a pain, though (it takes me HOURS to create a character in GURPS). I'd prefer if it stays with TSR, actually. Problem with GURPS is SJG tends to have support once then wait for 10 year for a 2nd edition way of coming out with supplements. If SJG got the right to Mystara it will come out with one 200 page book with everything then probably nothing else. As far as I can remember, Fantasy only had 4 or 5 extra supplements and Fantasy II had none. Also, GURPS is not as well suited for high fantasy. If Mystara does get sold, I will like to see it goes to a company that tend to continue supporting a product. As weird as it seems, White Wolf is the first that come to my head, but I don't like the story teller system. ICE also are pretty good at continual support, but they already have a detailed world, same with Colombia Game and Harn Master. Perhaps a small start-up company would purchase the game and make their flag ship product. Hey, how about all of us get together to purchase the right of Mystara, then we don't have to worry about copyright issue anymore :) But, in the end, the best hope for Mystara is probably for WotC to revive it as a more advance campaign for AD&D. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:42:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: >I'm curious >to see if the Savage Coast has had a special impact on Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking gaming communities? Any thoughts? Don't know about SC, but when Oriental Adventure first came out I was very excited, and purchased it almost immediatly. But got slightly turned off by the mostly Japanese translations. Also, while the book actually did a pretty good job in painting an oriental favor, too many places didn't quite fit my idea what that background should have and some of it conflict with my knowledge of the background material. My greatest laugh of that book come from the name of country that was based on China, Tu-Lung/Earth Dragon. Unfortunately, who ever give it that seemly innocent enough name didn't know that earth dragon is also a name earthworms :) John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:45:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Another demograph question, is Jenni the only female on the list? I expected the percentage would be one-sided, but not quite this much so. But I guess a mailing list member have to like both gaming and computer, two male dominated hobby. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:50:27 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Hi! ><< I find it very interesting that Mystara sold better overseas (which is sstrange to say for an Austrian). Bruce, are you referring to the AD&D Mystara only, or also to the OD&D-products? >> >Either -- but mostly original D&D. And has TSR tried to answer the question "why"? Did TSR try to make some polls and/or statistics? It would be interesting to know which part of Mystara is more European-appealing? Is there any state, where especially many Mystara-related products were sold? *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:02:42 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres >Yes, but an Immortal becoming mortal again is a little different... can he just get a sponsor and say "'Eh, I was Immortal once, clearly I deserve to be again?" (in a French accent ;-) and thats's it? I would rule for a player that they have to go through it all again. Especially for Etienne since he never did it in the first place. Perhaps it would all count, though, since he hasn't used it as a Path before. But I don't think a sponsor would be interested in all of that stuff. His new sponsor would set him new tasks. >Thorfinn. Well, if Rafiel was his sponsor, as has been suggested, he is probably pretty well-convinced of Rad's worthiness. It all really depends on what the DM wants to happen in his or her individual campaign. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:56:12 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language >Diego wrote: >Yes, but it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Zthe ttthytains therefore could be said to be a Roman/ Greek/ Turkish people. IIt seems you don't have understand a thing about Byzantium.For more information read my mail, Aleksej Andrievskij's mail and Mystaros' mail and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. MMystaros I'm afraid that I helped initiate this debate by mistakenly refering to the Byzantine Empire as having Turkish elements. I sincerely apologize for my mistake. However, I feel that this discussion has obviously gone way too far. Racial epithets have no place on this list, IMHO, and I would ask everyone involved to please stop sending this line to the list, and continue it on private e-mail only if you feel it is necessary. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:36:14 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres - ---------- >From: Aleksej Andrievskij To: mystara-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Date: Tuesday, April 29, 1997 6:12 AM >On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >>WARNING!!! What lies below is a Mark of Amber spoiler! If you want to be >>surprised by the adventure, Do Not Read Any Further! >>---------- >>>From: Thorfinn Tait To: mystara-l@lists.io.com >>>Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nucleus of the Spheres Date: Monday, April 28, 1997 12:44 PM >>>On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 Patrick wrote: >>>>And >>>>Thanatos and Nyx could support Synn, Kol, Halzunthram, & friends. >>>Halzunthram? I thought he died when Alexander Glantri captured him and >>>freed the people of Glantri from Alphatian rule? AAAs you probably guessed from that big, long warning, Halzunthram is back, >>and active in Mark of Amber. Forces of Entropy reincarnated him as a Rakshasa and sent him to prevent the return of his old enemy, Etienne. If >>the adventurers successfully completed MoA, Halzunthram ended up dead again.. However, IMC I changed the details slightly and made Halzunthram >>into a Titan, and I let him escape Chateau d'Ambreville to do more evil. >That's interesting, but a titan? I thought titans are servants of non-entropic immortals. Fiends serve Entropy. So wouldn't it be more realistic to change him to a fiend? Oops! You're right. My mistake. However, I do not think that fiends need necessarily be so mutated as they are in WotI. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:07:41 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-27 00:07:55 EDT, you write: >Uhh, sorry. I don't know about South America, but in Europe I hear it's common to refer to the USA as "the States". I do realize that the USA isn't the only country in the Americas :) No problem... I know than Europe call U Americans too (I lived for 7 years in France) but I'm in campaing to change this way of talking about USA ;)... >Actually, this is all kinda cool. I knew that D&D was popular all over the world, but I never realized that Mystara was too!!!! >Delarius Like I tell U, I knew Mystara in France. Here in Argentina there's a *FEW* peoples knowing mystaram, My players and me, My Cousin in Cordoba (Far Away from Buenos Aires) and 3 brothers are all my references (of OD&D players), but I saw somes of the new products of T$R in somes shops, all for AD$D, so I think there are somes more players... (sorry if I don't explain me clean, but it's to late...) - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #61 **************************** Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:30:08 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #62 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, April 30 1997 Volume 02 : Number 062 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:09:30 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels >>>DOH!!! that makes TWO that I have completely missed. I thought that they >>>decided not to put this one out at the same time they halted production of >>>all the other Savage Coast stuff. Guess I'll have to go book hunting when I >>>have some free time. >>Talking of which, what are all the Savage Coast products they printed? Did the Orcs' Head Gazetteer ever see print? >no, most of them never saw a dealer's shelf. The only ones actually published (in book format) were the Red Steel box set and the Savage Baronies expansion. Everything else was strictly online. Kind of a shame... However, the on-line versions are still definitely worthwhile. Anyone who still doesn't have them should check out http://www.tsrinc.com/ >From memory, here's a fairly complete Savage Coast source list. OD&D Products: Lots of Dragon Magazine entries (I don't know the numbers) Champions of Mystara (the stories from the Dragon Magazine articles) X9: The Savage Coast(???) AD&D Novel: The Black Vessel (printed under the Mystara logo, by Morris Simon) AD&D Boxed Sets (with cds) Red Steel Savage Baronies AD&D On-Line exclusives The Savage Coast Sourcebook (or something like that) Orc's Head (campaign expansion and additional rules) Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium Addendum Hope this helps Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:16:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spheres Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: >That's what I was trying to demonstrate by asking the question. I think it's rather ridiculous to assume that the Sphere of Energy controls all magic, since it _doesn't_ exist outside of being an abstract concept. Yet the thought of the NoS "draining" magic from the SoE seems to imply that the SoE controls magic. My theory is that magic is woven by power from all sphere. No matter which sphere is draining, it will drain magic, maybe not as drastic if it is draining from Energy, but draining nevertheless. >>I agree with this. How many college students change their major? Or how many graduate and then get a job that is in no way related to their course of study? >Changed mine four times, myself. Don't plan on getting a job related to the one I'm graduating with. :) Consider how difficult it is to get into a sphere, the requirement of a sponsor, rigidity of the hierichy, etc, I think it would be more like changing from one elite school to another. You might not have to go through the whole application process again, but it is not as easy as filling out a form. But within a sphere, immortal varies alot, and immortals from 2 different spheres might very well be more similar than immortal from their own sphere. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:21:55 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language In a message dated 97-04-29 07:42:41 EDT, you write: << Byzantium was not in turkey.It was in GREECE.Then the turks came and got land which was land from Byzantium,as well as slavians.Yugoslavia,albania,bulgaria,rumania,turkey and some other counties are now in land that once was land of BYZANTIUM,GREECE.So please everybody don't say the things you said in your mail. Okay, okay, Byzantium was GREEK. I certainly didn't mean to offend, and I am not even close to an expert on Greek or Byzantium history (or history at all for that matter). I think what Patrick meant to point out is that most Americans (that is, United States folks, sorry ;) suck at history because we have a lousy educational system. I honestly believed that Byzantium was Greek (and/or Turkish) as the Roman Empire was Italian . . . that is to say that Rome is in Italy and yet one can't honestly say that the "Roman Empire" as a whole was Italian in culture. To relate this thread to the point of this mailing list, when I think of the Thyatian Empire, which is described as analogous to Byzantium, I don't think Greek or Turkish, but rather Roman . . . because that is all I'm familar with. And when I (and other American players and game designers?) write about Thyatis, we tend to give it a Roman flavor. The "DDAA" series of modules (the first two were set in Thyatis City) have a definite Roman cultural flavor if you ask me. A benefit of this discussion is that I am now encouraged to research Byzantine culture and try and apply to my Mystara campaign. Has anyone else done this? How about our local culture god, Mystaros? But please, all of you on this list who are not from the USA. Please don't get offended if we goof when referring to your cultural and national history. Most of us aren't too keen on history . . . and many of us who are don't necessarily have it right. And even if we do, we may have a different perspective on it than you might. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:38:39 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds Here we are arguing whether what humanoid creatures can interbreed with other races. It's silly really. In fantasy, you can have whatever you want. If you want an orc/elf crossbreed . . . do it! In AD&D elves and orcs have been linked with varying degrees of importance since the game began (and this came from Tolkien, the master). In many campaigns and games, orcs are twisted perversions birthed from the elvish race. Strange crossbreeds have been popular with AD&D since the beginning as well. Many authors probably got sick of this trend (since it does tend to go overboard at times) and wrote stuff like "orcs can breed with anything except for elves". However, TSR is not known for its consistency, and many products have had things that other products expressly forbid. In my campaign, everything under the category of "humanoid" *can* interbreed (that includes demihumans, humans, goblinoids, giant-kin, and others). However, the result of many of these unions is sterile (like a mule . . half donkey, half horse), and damned unlikely for both cultural and biological reasons. So crossbreeds are possible, but extremely rare. In the Known World, half-elves exist, but are sterile and rare, as above. However, in the Savage Coast (due to the Immortal intervention of Fredar and Fredara) half-elves are not sterile, breed true, and are becoming "uncommon" (as opposed to very rare). And don't forget the N'djatwa (ogre/elves crossbreed) are also a race that breeds true due to Immortal intervention. One of my favorite characters was a unique crossbreed, an ogre/elf (but not a N'djatwa) created by the experiments of a mad wizard trying to create a master race. He had the brutish strength of his father, the grace of his mother, the capacity for cruelty from his wizard master, and the desire to be kind from his rescuers (the other members of the adventuring troupe). If you have a good solid idea for a crossbreed, than go for it! But please don't play a half minotaur/firbolg just to have awesome stats and killing ability. Make your character a part of the story and you can't go wrong! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:45:10 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 12:45 AM 4/30/97 -0400, John Yu wrote: >Another demograph question, is Jenni the only female on the list? I expected the percentage would be one-sided, but not quite this much so. But I guess a mailing list member have to like both gaming and computer, two male dominated hobby. Well, there's also Gabriele who is also on the MOrient project, which is why I remembered her. I don't know for sure about anyone else though there are a few names that /could/ belong to a female, but then again, they /could/ belong to a male too. And those that regularily use pseudonyms (such as Cthuludrew (sp?)) could be either (though in Cthuludrew's case, I'm pretty sure he's a he and not a she ;-) ) So, are there any others? Speak up! Or are we the only two? *sigh* -- its so lonely at the top.... ;-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:57:12 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 23.45 29/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 12:45 AM 4/30/97 -0400, John Yu wrote: >>Another demograph question, is Jenni the only female on the list? >Well, there's also Gabriele who is also on the MOrient project, which is why I remembered her. >Jenni A. M. Merrifield >-=> strawberryJAMM <=- Gabriele is not a female name!!!!!! The italian one is GabrielA!! Just to point out that there are little but substantial differences between a GabrielE and a GabrielA....(hope nobody gets offended here) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:01:22 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Cthulhu and D&D And talking about Cthulhu and R'lyeh and the other nasty lizardlike deities and their followers, has any of you ever had the impression that the Kopru race is the closest thing to a small baby Cthulhu? Personally, i was very intrigued by them, but unfortunately PC3 Sea People doesn't deal with their history as well as i thought and so their culture (especially their presence on the Isle of Dread as was portrayed in X1) is left a bit mysterious and undeveloped. Has any of you ever thought of them as the D&D Spawn of Cthulhu, which might prove the fact that the Evil Old Ones are among us (and yes, Cthulhudrew: the stars are right! They couldn't be more right than now...*shudder with pleasure*) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:06:13 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] What game is TSR playing? I found this article by Robert Placer in rec.games.board.marketplace if anyone wants to check it out. I thought it was really interesting about the current position of TSR, and if it's true, than it could explain a LOT of things. For those who are interested in the TSR/WotC affair and TSR trading policy in the last months, it's worth reading, but it's a bit long; for the others, just skip and trash it PS: i'm not saying the things written below are true, but only a personal report by Mr Placer, so i don't mean offend anyone, especially TSR, but i think that we must find the truth that lies in this issue. DM FORWARDED MESSAGE >What I am going to tell you is a bit lengthy, but well worth listening to. You probably are aware of some of these facts, but we are asking for your help in this matter. >As you know by now, WotC intends to purchase TSR. What you may not know is that TSR claims to owe over $12 million dollars (we've heard numbers as high as $40 Million) in Secured Debt, but is choosing to slough off quite a number of debts to smaller distributors and dealers as Unsecured Debts. The fact is, TSR has product which was returned by these businesses as part of an agreement set forth by TSR back in November of 1996. We had been a wholesaler for TSR for over 15 years, and while we are not nearly their largest customers, our orders were regular, and met all their minimum standards. In November of 1996, TSR issued a statement declaring that they were changing their wholesaler terms, something perfectly within their rights. Their minimum purchase requirements went up tremendously, as did their minimum yearly purchase requirements. They stated that they were aware that many distributors would not be able to meet these demands, and thus, were allowing any distributors who would be cut off to ship back any product for full credit under certain conditions. Those conditions were as follows: >All merchandise in saleable condition >All merchandise returned in case quantities Only products on the 1997 TSR Price List were eligible Merchandise to be shipped after 1/1/97 >Merchandise to be returned no later than 1/31/97 Product to be shipped via common carrier TSR would reimburse the shipping costs >We packed up many items and prepared them to be shipped out. Well, after much work and inventorying of product, our merchandise was returned via Roadway Express on 1/29/97. We spoke to TSR, who informed us that we should have a check within 4-6 weeks. The delay was due to the time required to inventory back in all the returned product, and that the processing of many large returns would take time. We were also told that due to recent layoffs in December, they were quite short-handed. This all seemed reasonable, and we decided to wait until the first week of March for our refund. Upon trying to call TSR on March 7th, we could not reach anyone other than an operator, with whom we left an appropriate message requesting a return phone call. It took us more than a dozen such phone calls during the following week, with multiple messages left requesting an answer from someone, and only upon threatening to call their 800 number once an hour on the hour did we finally get through to someone other than the operator. This person was Barbara Jules, their Controller. She claimed to have never received any of our prior messages, and that she often is three days behind on her phone calls. When asked where our money was, she informed me that several distributors had not yet returned their merchandise, and thus, TSR was not going to mail checks until all returns had been received. We were not too concerned about other businesses returns, and told her so. We also inquired as to why these distributors were still allowed to make returns, when the return notification clearly stated that product MUST be returned by 1/31/97. Barbara had no answer other than that we would have to wait, as it was too much work for the Accounting Department to process each distributor's returns on an individual basis. Finally, Barbara also informed us that she truly did not know when the checks would be ready, but to call her back in one month. So, we did... and the same difficulties in trying to reach her were beginning to become rather redundant and stale. Again, we finally got through to Barbara on 4/8/97 and she informed us that she would look into it and return our call by 4/14/97 at the latest. So we waited again. Naturally, we received no phone call, but instead got word of the TSR/WotC deal via the WotC Web Page. So we contacted TSR on 4/15/97, and was informed by Constance Lindman, TSR's Legal Counsel, that even though they have our product (it is paid in full 100% by us), we are NOT considered a Secured Debt, and therefore, we cannot be promised that we will be paid anything at all for our product. We have not since heard from TSR, even after sending them a "Demand of Payment" letter requesting full payment by 4/29/97 (90 days after shipment) or legal action would be taken. >Now, here is what we believe REALLY transpired in TSR's inner circle leading up to this deal... >TSR knew prior to November that they were planning on selling the company to someone. As such, a good way to increase a company's value is to have saleable product on hand ready to be shipped. Note that TSR only allowed the ex-distributors to return CURRENT product only, and only in resaleable, case-quantities. Note how eager they were to accept returns as late as possible (they extended the return date), even though their own original deadline stated 1/31/97. However, as soon as it came to actually paying for any returned product, or even answering inquiries, they were unable to be reached, and had no answers when they could be contacted. Suddenly, TSR announces a Stock Purchase deal with WotC, which is HEAVILY dependent upon both TSR's abilties to reduce their SECURED debt (Thus increasing TSR's overall net worth) by the time of sale. Having all of this merchandise on-hand, and as UNSECURED debt, with the ability to shrug off large percentages, if not 100%, of said same debt, means that suddenly TSR is worth a few dollars more, without ever having to sell any product, spend any money, or exert any effort. What we believe we have here, in case you have not figured it out, is called CRIMINAL FRAUD, CIVIL FRAUD, MAIL FRAUD, and CRIMINAL CONVERSION OF PROPERTY. We have looked into the legal ramifications (having contacted several attorneys, the Wisonsin Attorney General's Office, the New Jersey Attorney General's Office, and the Postmaster General), and are prepared to file suit against TSR in the event this is not resolved by the close of business (6pm Eastern Time) on 4/29/97. >Here is where we are requesting your assistance in this matter: >We are also aware (as per TSR's legal counsel's statements) that there are several other distributors (according to TSR, anywhere from 16 to 24) who are in a similar position as we are. We have also received a number of phone calls from various authors and illustrators who are owed rather large sums themselves (at least one has a lawsuits pending already). What we need is a list of distributors who were cut-off by TSR as distributors via this same program. We also are looking for other businesses or individuals who TSR may owe money to. If you know of someone who is owed money from TSR, whether an individual or a business, please have them get in touch with us IMMEDIATELY, and/or forward information to us so we may contact them, so we may take the appropriate legal steps to either stop the sale until such time as WotC and/or TSR either pay what monies they owe, give legal guarantee of payment, return all products which were returned to TSR under this agreement, offer 100% credit on TSR and WotC products at wholesale costs, or as a final option, bar the purchase of TSR by WotC completely. Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated. >Thanks for listening, >Rob Placer >HobbyQuest Marketing Wholesale >(908) 842-6082 voice >(908) 747-3752 fax >mailto:HQM@hobbymasters.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:18:10 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] When Game meets Reality (and Fiction) Ok, now we mentioned here obvious examples of TSR borrowing names from real world for Mystara (Sundsvall the clearest example, but there are others). Now what about this: PWA1013 (Joshuan crap) mentions Per Kirvik, the UFO expert of Glantri, and his intials are the same of one of the greatest UFO experts of real world, Peter Kolosimo (P.K.); just a coincidence? As for the fictional names in Mystara, the more obvious example can be found in Gaz4 (that's one of the few things i actually liked of Ierendi Gaz): above Fletcher Isl. live a Belcadizan elf named Mr Coarke who, aided by the small Matou, runs a large compound where tourists can have their dreams come true for 100 gp a day (rings a bell? Fantasy Island...) And in the same isle we can also meet Sir Iggens, an old retired Thyatian soldier who now works as majordomo and caretaker of a big tenant owned by a rich mysterious Thyatian, and who employs two black dogs to guard the house(Zeus, Apollo!), as well as a norse handsome fighter who is a champion in canoeing, Magnus, who is often seen riding a red chariot (Ferrari?). And this guy has 2 good friends, Dizzy, who runs the magic carpet firm of transportation among the isles, and Krik, who owns a private exclusive club (Kamehameha Club?) on Fletcher Island. That is really funny, and it's the kinda thing that give spice and flavour to the campaign! DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:25:43 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Dinos and Dragons At 20.23 28/04/97 +0200, you wrote: >My theory on Dragons: >Dragons come from the outer planes. Their orginin is unknown, though they may have been created by the first Great One. (There has been at least two) The current Great One created the ceremony of sublimation allowing dragons easier to gaing immortal status. Why Dragons now have various colours and abilities is yet to be revealed. >Linking Dragons to Dinosaurs: >If Dinosaurs were the ancestors of the Dragons, Dragons would be a lot younger that suspected and they would originate on Mystara. Dinosaurs could be degenerated Dragons though. This makes the dinos seem rather pathetic IMHO. any thoughts, anyone? >Haavard R. Faanes I think your hypothesis is actually the closest thing to the truth i've seen so far. Besides, i don't think that the dinos are pathetic if they are viewed as degenerated dragons: they are mighty, but not smart or magicwielders and that's all. But thanks to the efforts of Ka, the Carnifex were created, dinosaurs who evolved much more than their lesser cousins; unfortunately they didn't follow the path Ka hoped, and so they were exterminated and exiled to the Pits of Banishment. But i still think your hypo on dinos and dragons holds. DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:31:41 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Georgios Dimitrios Milonas wrote: >and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. *cough, cough* Excuse me, are you calling Slavs "barbarians"? FYI, Greeks can be called barbarians themselves, because they are descended from Dorians who invaded Greece and conquered the Mycenaean and Cretan cultures. (Hopefully this won't become a flame war) ;) Aleksei P.S.BTW, I have no complaints about calling Turks barbarians ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:38:50 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? At 15.34 28/04/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: >In my history of Mystara, Ka >reached Immortality ca. 50,000,000 BC, and one of his first projects was the creation of the Carnifax race. The Carnifax reach incredible heights of power during their time, and in the end challenged the Immortals for Ultimate Power in the Multiverse. They lost, of course, and in the ensuing war pretty much destroyed Mystara Mmhh, that is not actually the whole truth as told in M4.Your idea that the Carnifex evolved from the dinos thanks to KA guidance is really good, but when they reached their immense level of power and knowledge they didn't actually challenged the Immortals: rather, they tried to develop a weapon of ultimate power that malfunctioned and caused their downfall. The Immortals then saw what a great threaten to the world they posed and banished the last remaining Carnifex to the Pits of Banishment, IIRC >(though it also revealed the Hollow World to Ka, which he and other Immortals promptly put to use saving thousands of Saurial species, which were becoming exting). That was ca. 5,000,000 BC; IMHO it is too far away in time. Remember that we are talking here about Mystara, where Immortals play with the species as toys, so it could very well be that Carnifex have evolved at a very fast rate and thus, not being able to fully understand nor control the power they had reached, they nearly blew themselves up (much like the Blackmoorians later on). So i place their Empire in the timestream around 8000 and 7000 BC, cause if we follow your interesting theory about the elves true origins, they must have been already extinct in 6000 BC when the first elves were created and were nurtured by the forest spirits (fairies). Ka could have attained immortality around 10000 BC >Meanwhile, the Mystaran Dragons were rapidly evolving from the Saurial species (note the many close comparisons between birds and dragons; this was not a coincidence). Don't think the dragons evolved from dinos: rather i agree with Haavard Faeenes (sorry for the sp) when he says that they came from the outer planes, and maybe they were the ancestors of our dinos... >As to the other lizard races, Lizard Men, Troglodytes and such, they were all >the various servitor races of the Carnifex, now under the control of the >Serpentines. The Serpentines themsel "played" with the genetic development o fvarious species, and these experiemtns eventually gave rise to the Giants >and the Yuan-Ti among others (like the Enduks)... >Mystaros That sounds possible, though i don't see how the enduks can be the creation of the Serpentines (winged minotaurs??). I think the endukian history as given in ORc's Head accessory is the best one to follow (and besides, it's official stuff). As for the giants, i remember reading in HW that they originated from the beastmen as well as the other humanoid (goblinoid is a better term, don't u think?) races like ogres, goblins, etc. DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:45:03 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft: the truth revealed At 19.35 28/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >You're kidding, right? MORGorOTH? Snip out the or and you get Morgoth? Ring any bells for anyone? >Thorfinn. Holy Ixion! i'm sure i've heard that name before, but it escapes me right now! Please, o please, tell me the truth, buy! :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:47:33 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Septahenge At 15.46 28/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >I actually placed the Septahenge among the Mounds of Ligona on the great plateau in the Land of Carnax, north of Robrenn. Thought it was kind of appropriate... >Mystaros I would prefer Denagoth, cause it's the farthest place from the old Carnifex Empire (which spread across Davania) and besides it's a dangerous place to go, but not so far from our Known World. And moreover, i have personal campaign reasons for this...:) But your placing is good, though...:) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:43:55 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Halfling cannibals At 12.45 28/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Speaking of Davanian Cultures, Ive always believed that the the area around the Adakkian sound was populated by Hin. I think the Hin were originally very much like Tolikena Hobbits; very nice and innocent. Making them exactly like those of LotR wouldn't be very interesting, so I guess they should have changed too. Perhaps they sail in small seaweed boats. A primitive fishing culture really.. >Hmm...maybe because of the lizard-kin influence, these hin became more wild and cannibalistic - like the ones from Dark Sun. Any thoughts? >SB Wilson Gee! Halfling cannibals is really cool! Let's make them black halfling and we have just created our own version of the cannibal pygmeos that dwelt in Africa! Really, that kinda vision should be preferred to the "Tolkien version hin", cause they have to become fierce and ruthless to survive among lizardmen, humanoids, fierce beasts and other horrors, and so they could have crossbred with Tanagoro or Aryptians and kobolds and have developed their tribal customs, among which the most important is the Eating, when you eat the flesh of your enemy to inherit his power and strength in a complicate ritual ceremony. That could also explain some physical mutations... DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:05:30 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Wastoure At 14.14 28/04/97 -0700, Cthulhudrew wrote: >If you check the Hollow World and Outer world maps, you see that the area in which Cipactli, the Burrower who corrupted Wastoure, is buried is almost directly beneath the Manacapuru/Bogdashkan tribal land area. Need I mention the obvious parallels between the Burrowers and the Great Old Ones of the Cthulhu mythos? Sorry, i have HWR1 and HW boxed set, but i really haven't that much info about Wastoure and u seem the best knower of him: can u tell me (also privately) some more details? Thanks DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:02:47 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Arypt At 16.00 28/04/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: >Arypt, in my campaign, was a lost colony of the Nithians, founded in the early days of Pharonic rule by Horon Ausar I (the first Pharaoh after Orisis, the founder of and a patron Immortal of Nithia). Stop! Stop! Probably you don't have HWR2, or maybe u didn't when u developed this part of your campaign, but Horon in the official Nithian supplement is indeed a patron immortal of Nithia, but he is Ixion! so, he cannot possibly be the same pharaoh you're referring to. Moreover, Orisis is cited only in Gaz4, whereas in HWR2 Nithia there is an Immortal called Isiris (Valerias), the spouse of Horon: maybe this is the Orisis we're both referring to (and the one Ann Gray MacReady invented in Gaz4) >There are a few priesthoods who hold the ancient secrets of Arypt, but in 1000 AC, most of the surrounding peoples are of a thoroughly assimilated Milenian/Aryptian society. Again, however, Set works hand in hand with the Serpentines, and he has numerous cells and cults dedicated to his following in the old Aryptian area... and as to the Carnifex ruins, well, there are some things that really, really do not need be disturbed! Mystaros Wow, seems we're going to have our own Relic adventure in Mystara, which is not that far from the things we're saying after all! PS: Mystaros, if u don't mind, could u send me some more things about the Serpentines and the Aryptian society u developed, along with the Set cult. I would be grateful, thanks! DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:55:50 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica & Carnifex (long) At 12.33 28/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >Mystaros wrote: >>The Elves actually fit into this >>picture as well, as in my history, they are descended from a group of Yuan-Ti who were purged of their serpentine poisons by the Immortal Ordana, and culturally revamped by the Faerie Folk under the tutelage of Ordana. >If we take into account the Dragonlord Trilogy, it mentions that dragons and elves came from the same stock - the Eldar. Therefore, the elf/Yuan-Ti connection is not all that far fetched. Yeah, id' really like to follow this theory as the official one: elves were originated from purged Yuan-Ti and revamped by the fairy folk. Anyone has reasons to disagree? >DM wrote >>(snip) >>However, the hypothesis of Mystaros is enthralling, and if we follow it then we should place the Carnifex era between 6000 BC (when the elves are thriving nurtured by the forest spirits) and maybe 8000 BC (give the dinosaurs time to evolve into lizardmen and carnifex and then to the carnifex to create the lesser lizardkin). Any thoughts? >I like the idea - except I'd have the carnifex mostly extinct by 6000 BC. Of course, it was also my idea. I'd place their empire alive between 8000 and 7000 BC, destroyed near 6500 BC or so >Between 6000 BC and 5500 BC I'd put them in the Hollow World so >Thanatos could possibly use them in helping to corrupt the Brute-Men (ie. >aiding the Burrowers). That's impossible! The Immortals banished ALL the remaining Carnifex to the Pits of Banishment after they threatened to destroy the whole Mystara, so there cannot be any Carnifex remaining on Mystara after 6500 BC >>Then, if Yig >>(the Serpent Old ONe) is the deity worshipped by the yuan-ti and the Manacapuru, and if this isle is really R'lyeh, what keeps us from mingling with the Cthulhu mithoi? Basically only copyright! >Egad! If the Old Ones actually turned out to be THE Old Ones...::shudder:: Now would be a good time for them to become more active (the stars are right!) since the Nucleus is now under Entropy's control. IMHO, the Old Ones are not HPL old Ones, even though i had this same idea a while ago. However, the HPL Old Ones can very well be the Dark Powers who live trapped in Ravenloft, inside the Vortex Dimension, and that fits well in my cosmology. Alternatively, the CARNIFEX themselves can be considered as the Old Ones by the whole lizardkin and by nowadays population venerating them and their immense magical power. This makes sense! Obviously, the Carnifex could worship the real Great Old Ones at their time, which could turn out to be the RL Dark Powers as i suggested... but then, i'm overcomplicating things. Sorry for my ramblings :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:27:18 +0200 (METDST) From: "Oystein H. Lund" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics I'm studying chemical engineering at my college, and I was due to graduate this spring. Was. I had a bout of glandular fever that had me bedridden close to two months, so there went my thesis project - and my gaming time, as I've had to drop almost everything to try and catch up on teh theory for another couple exams, that I can at least pass. I'll be 26 years in August, and I've been an exchange student in Canada, a Ranger along the Soviet border in the Norwegian Army, and I'm on the board of the local gaming club. (Yes, it was still the Soviet union while I served ;) I've been gaming since I was - ooh, 15. I started in Mystara, with the old red boxed set - and the campaign we started back then is still alive and running, although on hiatus right now due to me being the GM. I've gamed in a lot of other systems and worlds as well, too numerous to mention - and I've written the Shadowrun tournament modules for the first two RegnCons held in Bergen. This fall I'll be working on completing my engineering degree at this college - and doing the prep-work for advanced studies over at the university. Introductory philosophy and some math is a prerequisite for anything more, and I think I can do those and still finish the thesis I've got to complete here. (Well, so does my advisor, and he ought to know what he's talking about ;) _______________________________________________________________________ | Oeystein H. Lund ,kj160@lhg.hib.no | | "Who are we, why are we here ?" | | - Forget the questions, someone gimme another beer. | |_____________________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:35:36 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language Hi! >Yes, but it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Zthe >>thytains therefore could be said to be a Roman/ Greek/ Turkish people. >It seems you don't have understand a thing about Byzantium. Sorry, but the city Byzantium was situated, where now is Istanbul (Byzantium->Constantinopel->Istanbul), and when it was named Constantinopel it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire. Istanbul is now in Turkey, so there is at least a geographical connection. >and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. And you are just insulting Turks and Slavs! I strongly recommend that such nationalistic issues are not brought to the list! I´m quite sure that you live in Greece, because the enmity Greece-Turkey is well known! >Would you folks mind using something akin to the above subject I've changed this to? I am trying to follow the Traladaran language thread which I started and am not particularly interested in listening to people call others "barbarians." Just my oppinion, and I will also stop to be off-topic. But a discussion of Real-World-Byzantium would be on topic, especially if it would be tied to the Traladaran! >There is an >excellent REH story about the Turks that could be used for inspiration for the Huleans... "The Shadow of the Vulture" is about the siege of Vienna, definite inspiration for a Hulean siege of Darokin... it also has some great character inspirations; in fact, the Red Sonya of this story was the inspiration for the Red Sonja of the Hyborean Age of Conan... First of all, I definitly agree with your historical condensation (with the little knowledge I have). Second, can you tell me more about this article, who has written it, and so on, so I could find it. If you say that it is good reading, I´m especially interested in it, because I live in Vienna! (The reason why Austria is the Northernmost country in Europe, where you get a decent coffee is of course that the Turks never got further north than Vienna. That´s meant as a joke, folks, not a flame-initiation. Although it is probably a joke with some truth in it!) *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:49:34 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language Ryan Andrew Nestler wrote: >On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Georgios Dimitrios Milonas wrote: >>>The Thyatian invaders are supposed to be the analogue of the Byzantine Empire, so they should be responsible for the Turkish atmosphere. >>Excuse me!!!But the Byzantine Empire is a Greek Empire and they hadn't absolutely any similarity with turkish empire. >Excuse me, but i could swear that the Byzantine empire was actually a spin-off of the Roman Empire. The Byzantines then became a separate entity and developed along slightly more Eastern lines. >Ryan The proof that even TSR thinks that Byzantium is Greek is the name of the Thyatian Emperor-Eusebius I.A real Greek name. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:47:07 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: >On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Georgios Dimitrios Milonas wrote: >>and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. >*cough, cough* >Excuse me, are you calling Slavs "barbarians"? FYI, Greeks can be called barbarians themselves, because they are descended from Dorians who invaded Greece and conquered the Mycenaean and Cretan cultures. >(Hopefully this won't become a flame war) ;) >Aleksei >P.S.BTW, I have no complaints about calling Turks barbarians ;) Calling Greeks barbarians,one of the most ancient people in the worls,the nation who gave to the world,the arts,the painting,the theater,sculptur,mathematics,medecine,chemistry,have infuenced most languages of our planet,is like calling your civilatization-barbaric. On the other hand,slavs,who came from mongolia and have a history of 100 years was indeed barbarians and they still are.Believe me,I study in bulgaria and I know. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #62 **************************** Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:45:55 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #63 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, April 30 1997 Volume 02 : Number 063 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:07:29 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Ierendi Ya know, reading Gaz4 again i seem to know now what really upset me about it. The fact that it had the potential for becoming a migling of the caribbean-hawaii culture, but it never was. I hoped to read something about a culture that portraied the Vodoo culture of Haiti and these kinda things, but i didn't find anything like this. Has any of you ever made something like the Haitian voodoo culture in Mystara (maybe on tanegioth?) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:53:09 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] thyatis and byzantium PLEASE, PLEASE: stop it! We do know that Thyatis has nothing to do with Turks so stop the thread! thyatis is Roman-Greek in style and that's all!!! i don't care about Byzantium being more turkish or greek or slavian or roman for that matter: Byzantium is no more, so stop it! I rather doubt the very people of Istanbul loose so many hours talking about this topic! Sorry i went too hot about the thing... DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:46:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 03:20:54 EDT, you write: << >alphabet ("Cyrillic"). The Boldavian language of Glantri is a Voldavian dialect with strong admixture of Flaemish ("Russian"), Flaemish is Dutch, not Russian IMO. >> LOL! Sorry, I most certainly did NOT mean to insinuate that the RW language of Flanders was a Russian language! The "Flaemish" of my post was the language of the Flaems of the Highlands (formerly of Auld Alphatia, etc.). I was referring to the *Boldavian* language, which I felt was the Mystaran analogue for Russian, due to the ADMIXTURE of Flaemish, and a dash of Ethengar and Thyatian. Boldavian can understand 50% of what a speaker of Voldavian Traladaran says, while a speaker of the Volagan Traladaran understands 20% of the Boldavian tongue. The reverse is true for the Viseris language, (50% understood by speaker of Volagan, 20% understood by speaker of Voldavian). Viseri and Voldavian are mutually unintelligible, while Voldavian and Volagan are 80% mutually intelligible. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:53:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language In a message dated 97-04-30 03:25:43 EDT, you write: << Diego wrote: Yes, but it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Zthe >thytains therefore could be said to be a Roman/ Greek/ Turkish people. It seems you don't have understand a thing about Byzantium.For more information read my mail, Aleksej Andrievskij's mail and Mystaros' mail and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. Mystaros Hey George, please don't sign my name at the bottom of your posts! It isn't compurighted or anything, it just isn't done, you know? Mystaros BTW, Please, let's watch the "barbarian" name calling, okay? ALL our ancestors were "Barbarians" at one time or another (except mine, of course. Ever heard of a Barbarian Mennonite or Barbarian Amish? "Ja, I yam Menno of Nappanee. My father vas a farmer, as vas his father before me" ;) Of course, you simply meant "Barnarian" in the classical snse, as in "One who does not speak Greek". But "Barbarian" has many other unfortunate connotations outside of the Greek... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:56:20 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-29 18:55:52 EDT, Mystaros@aol.com writes: ><< Here's another Question: IF Mystara were bought by another game company >(other than WotC), which company would you like to see buy it and why? Which other system would you like to see used for Mystara and why? With WotC buyin TSR, it is not impossible that another company could buy Mystara and republish it using another game system (mere speculation mind you). What would be your preferences?>> >That is a tough one -- since the D&D game mechanics are very much implicit in the world of Mystara, I would have a tough time imagining it working under a >radically different game system, especially one that is NOT level-based. I would thus rule out Chaosium's system, which would otherwise be my first choice for nearly any RPG campaign. White Wolf's Storyteller system and GURPS would also be ruled out. Also, while I liberally looted Ars Magica for ideas for my Glantri-based campaign (guess what I had those wizards calling fighters behind their backs?), I can't see using that system either. >Given the suitable level-based systems, my order of preference would probably be as follows: >1) ICE's Rolemaster -- without question the most suitable system next to D&D. >2) Chivalry and Sorcery -- perhaps a better match than Rolemaster, but the system is currently undergoing a new revision, and I would not rate it first until I have had the chance to see it. >3) Palladium -- Compatible with D&D, but I don't particularly care for the rules >system. 4) FASA's EarthDawn system, which I think is one of the better (perhaps the best) fantasy system out there, IMO. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:41:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language In a message dated 97-04-30 07:32:04 EDT, you write: << There is an excellent REH story about the Turks that could be used for inspiration for the Huleans... "The Shadow of the Vulture" is about the siege of Vienna, definite inspiration for a Hulean siege of Darokin... it also has some great character inspirations; in fact, the Red Sonya of this story was the inspiration for the Red Sonja of the Hyborean Age of Conan...> First of all, I definitly agree with your historical condensation (with the little knowledge I have). Second, can you tell me more about this article, who has written it, and so on, so I could find it. If you say that it is good reading, I´m especially interested in it, because I live in Vienna! >> Well, REH is short for the name of the author of the story, Robert E. Howard, author of the Conan stories (with L. Sprague de Camp, Lin Carter and Bjorn Nyberg... accept no imitations!). It is a fictional story concerning a German mercenary and his Big Enemy, Suleyman the Magnificant, Sultan of Turkey (and in those days, enemies didn't get any bigger). The story was "The Sahdow of the Vulture", and the version I have is in a Zebra Books compilation of four short stories dealing with the wars in the Middle East between Europeans and Arabs, Mongols and Turks. The stories originally appeared in various magazines in the '30's, and this compilation is from the early 70's. Unfortunately, none of the stories made it into the recent Baen Books seriesof Howard short stories; maybe later. Just try to find any old REH books you can, as I seriously doubt it is in print anywhere... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:25:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? In a message dated 97-04-30 05:04:54 EDT, you write: << In my history of Mystara, Ka reached Immortality ca. 50,000,000 BC, and one of his first projects was the creation of the Carnifax race. The Carnifax reach incredible heights of power during their time, and in the end challenged the Immortals for Ultimate Power in the Multiverse. They lost, of course, and in the ensuing war pretty much destroyed Mystara> Mmhh, that is not actually the whole truth as told in M4.>> Well, I felt that "Challenging the Immortals" was a lot more romantic than "They built a weapon and it fizzled, so the Immortals banished them anyway". I tend to mythologize the parts of Mystaran history that I feel are otherwise... well.. wimpy. I thought it would be much cooler for these beings to have challenged the Immortals; it would give them even more reason to be very angry... <<(though it also revealed the Hollow World to Ka, which he and other Immortals promptly put to use saving thousands of Saurial species, which were becoming exting). That was ca. 5,000,000 BC; > IMHO it is too far away in time. Remember that we are talking here about Mystara, where Immortals play with the species as toys,>> Again, I go for the longer view... also, Immortals do not play dice with MYSTARA... remember, rule number one is that they do not interfere with the development of Mystara in any overt way without the approval of the Council of Mystara... now, naturally, there are those who break the rules, but Mystara is not the Immortals playground. Generally, I have seen a balance being created in the major events promulgated by the Immortals (Ordana "creates" the Elves, Hel "Creates" the Beastmen, Odin "Facilitates" the migration of Antalians to the Southern Continent, etc). Besides, the Carnifex ruled during the height of the Age of the Dinosaurs. There wouldn't be enought time, really, for all the Mammals to evolve "Naturally" or "Unnaturally" for the Empire of Thonia to be in place in 5000 BC... < Don't think the dragons evolved from dinos: rather i agree with Haavard Faeenes (sorry for the sp) when he says that they came from the outer planes, and maybe they were the ancestors of our dinos>> I think I mentioned somewhere in theat post that the Chromatic Dragons and the Metallic Dragons (as well as the Gem Dragons, BTW) evolved ELSEWHERE in the Prime Plane (in my history), and arrived on Mystara in 5500 BC from ELSWHERE. I don't think they would be from the Outer Planes, personally, since if they were, we would see whole legions of Fiends and other Outer Planar entities given full reign across the Prime Plane. The Mystaran Dragons I mentioned that eveolveed from the Saurials are a whole different breed of Dragon, and include the multiheaded Elder Dragon (and it's nonintelliegent cousin, the Hydra), the Linnorms of the Northern Reaches, and other, less well known breeds... < That sounds possible, though i don't see how the enduks can be the creation of the Serpentines (winged minotaurs??). I think the endukian history as given in ORc's Head accessory is the best one to follow (and besides, it's official stuff). As for the giants, i remember reading in HW that they originated from the beastmen as well as the other humanoid (goblinoid is a better term, don't u think?) races like ogres, goblins, etc.>> Again, my "More Mythological" nature to my campaign changed some of this... I am not much of one for Canon, when I feel that it doesn't really push the story along. The Enduks were just another of the Serpentines experiments into Spam Creatures (creatures made up of two or more other creature types.. including everything from Griffons to Shedu, though not ALL are due to the Serpentines). [BTW, "Spam Creatures" is a term coined by our good friend Bruce Heard]. The Enduks, who were abandoned by their creators, eventually were "adopted" as a servitor race by Ixion; their original home was in the Izondian Wall mountains. They were pushed out of their homeland by the Dragon Elves in 2000 BC, and the majority of them migrated to the Orc's Head Peninsula (bringing with them their Lizard Men Slaves, whom they traded to the Herathians for land). As to the Giants, in my history they were a "Gladiator/Soldier" servitor race for the Serpentines who gained their freedom circa 200,000 BC, when they migrated to the western Northern Continent (Brun). There they allied themselves with the various elemental powers, evolving over time into the modern races (Fire, Frost, Storm, Cloud, etc, including the Elder Trolls of the Northern Reaches). The Giants are, for the most part, too noble a species to associate with the Beastmen (with the exception of the degenerate Hill and Mountains races). As for the Humanoids or Goblinoids, I call any race descended from the original Beastmen of Hel a mamber of the "Beastmen" species, as they can still all interbreed, from Kobold up to Troll. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:45:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Voodoo and Juju In a message dated 97-04-30 07:41:30 EDT, you write: << I hoped to read something about a culture that portraied the Vodoo culture of Haiti and these kinda things, but i didn't find anything like this. Has any of you ever made something like the Haitian voodoo culture in Mystara (maybe on tanegioth?) >> I have developed the Folk Culture of the peoples of the Yavdlom Divinarchy as having a "Voodoo" style faith and culture... it seemed the perfect choice, especially when most of the people have been "abandoned" as "not important" by the Divinarchs... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:54:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language In a message dated 97-04-30 08:15:49 EDT, you write: << A benefit of this discussion is that I am now encouraged to research Byzantine culture and try and apply to my Mystara campaign. Has anyone else done this? How about our local culture god, Mystaros? Please, I am a Demiurge, not one of those troublesome Immortals! ;) And yes, I have... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 05:53:26 EDT, John Yu writes: << Unfortunately, who ever give it that seemly innocent enough name didn't know that earth dragon is also a name earthworms :) >> Well, at least it didn't mean *goat droppings*, didn't it! ;-) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:59:15 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 04:55:21 EDT, Thorfinn writea: << PS - it's a cool word, though, isn't it? :-) >> Yeah. I was a bit confused about it because "chuffed" sounds like "huffed" which means exactly the opposite (at least it does here in the USA). :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] When Game meets Reality (and Fiction) In a message dated 97-04-30 08:42:11 EDT, you write: << PWA1013 (Joshuan crap) mentions Per Kirvik, the UFO expert of Glantri, and his intials are the same of one of the greatest UFO experts of real world, Peter Kolosimo (P.K.); just a coincidence? >> Also: Per Kirvik (3:6) Fox Mulder (3:6) Hmmm.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:59:16 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... In a message dated 97-04-30 05:27:14 EDT, Kavyid writes: << That is a tough one -- since the D&D game mechanics are very much implicit in the world of Mystara, I would have a tough time imagining it working under a radically different game system, >> Yeah. All things considered at this point in time, I seriously doubt WotC would even consider selling or licensing out any of TSR's old worlds. If their revival were remotely possible, I think they would rather handle them thelmselves -- but again -- this is just my take on the current situation. Nothing official since the deal between TSR and WotC has not yet been officially signed. It will take quite a bit of time before the smoke clears and long term plans are studied in detail. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:23:35 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 06:49:25 EDT, Sebastian Quiles writes: << saw somes of the new products of T$R in somes shops, all for AD$D, >> Having a bad day, Mister $ebastian Quile$? Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 05:55:51 EDT, Peter writes: << And has TSR tried to answer the question "why"? Did TSR try to make some polls and/or statistics? It would be interesting to know which part of Mystara is more European-appealing? Is there any state, where especially many Mystara-related products were sold? >> I doubt it very much, or if there had been one it certainly didn't come my way. Market studies were completed a few years ago, but they covered the overall AD&D/roleplaying game genre for TSR -- polling, market trends, growth potentials, general demographics, customer profiles, public recognition of the hobby and brand names, etc. I don't remember seing a breakdown by game worlds, much less a regional analysis for each of these campaign worlds. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:49:26 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 09:57 AM 4/30/97 +0000, DM wrote: >>Well, there's also Gabriele who is also on the MOrient project, which is why I remembered her. >Gabriele is not a female name!!!!!! The italian one is GabrielA!! Just to point out that there are little but substantial differences between a GabrielE and a GabrielA....(hope nobody gets offended here) Oh! Sorry Gabriele! If you are, indeed male, I didn't mean to offend -- I know a Gabriele here (and that's how she spells it too) and made the (possibly wrong) assumption that you were female too. Sorry, sorry, sorry!! Now I'm feeling even more lonely... Am I the /only/ female? *snif* Where's Ann Dupuis when I need her? .... (I just remembered her, but she's been so quiet lately I don't know if she's still with us or not) Jenni A. M. Merriefield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:52:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arypt In a message dated 97-04-30 07:54:17 EDT, you write: << Arypt, in my campaign, was a lost colony of the Nithians, founded in the early days of Pharonic rule by Horon Ausar I (the first Pharaoh after Orisis, the founder of and a patron Immortal of Nithia).> Stop! Stop! Probably you don't have HWR2, or maybe u didn't when u developed this part of your campaign, but Horon in the official Nithian supplement is indeed a patron immortal of Nithia, but he is Ixion! so, he cannot possibly be the same pharaoh you're referring to. Moreover, Orisis is cited only in Gaz4, whereas in HWR2 Nithia there is an Immortal called Isiris (Valerias), the spouse of Horon: maybe this is the Orisis we're both referring to (and the one Ann Gray MacReady invented in Gaz4)>> Yes, I have the HWR.. I have EVERYTHING that has to do with Mystara. The names of Nithian Pharaohs, like the RW Egyptians, all have elements of theirPatron Immortals in them! Thus, the Patron of Pharaoh Horon Ausar I was Horon (Horon sponsored Orisis as an Immortal, and Orisis was the father of Horon Ausar, and yes, he is the same as that found in GAZ4 <>). I have developed a whole mythology about Orisis and the founding of the Nithian Empire... < PS: Mystaros, if u don't mind, could u send me some more things about the Serpentines and the Aryptian society u developed, along with the Set cult. I would be grateful, thanks! >> I would love to post such info for all to read and use, I just don't have most of it on the computer yet (been playing in Mystara since 1980, and most info is on paper or in my head)... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 08:13:01 EDT, Dalmonte writes: << Gabriele is not a female name!!!!!! >> Hmmm... *female* goat droppings! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:32:26 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] When Game meets Reality (and Fiction) In a message dated 97-04-30 08:42:11 EDT, Dalmonte writes: <> (snipped for length) << That is really funny, and it's the kinda thing that give spice and flavour to the campaign! >> ROFL! I had forgotten about these silly bits. I'm just glad you're not throwing it back in our face! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:40:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft: the truth revealed DM pontificated: >At 19.35 28/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >>You're kidding, right? MORGorOTH? Snip out the or and you get Morgoth? Ring any bells for anyone? >>Thorfinn. >Holy Ixion! i'm sure i've heard that name before, but it escapes me right now! Please, o please, tell me the truth, buy! :) Lord of the Rings. Master of Sauron. The similarity cought my eyes too, but I guess it might be becuase that type of name just sound evil. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:14:37 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 13:12:26 EDT, Strawberry JAMM writes: << (I just remembered her, but she's been so quiet lately I don't know if she's still with us or not) >> The last time I spoke with Ann she wasn't on the mailing list. I bet if we bugged enough she might come back once in a while (just kidding). It would be nice.... :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:51:54 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica & Carnifex (long) >>Between 6000 BC and 5500 BC I'd put them in the Hollow World so >Thanatos >could possibly use them in helping to corrupt the Brute-Men (ie. >aiding the Burrowers). >That's impossible! The Immortals banished ALL the remaining Carnifex to the Pits of Banishment after they threatened to destroy the whole Mystara, so there cannot be any Carnifex remaining on Mystara after 6500 BC Oops! You're right...sorry. I'm still learning about the Carnifex so I still make some assumptions that don't fit. I had to dig through all my boxes to find an old copy of M3 Twilight Calling...you know, I don't think I ever actually read it completely through. Ack! Get out the flail and start beating me... :( Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:49:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 12:11:24 EDT, you write: << Boldavian can understand 50% of what a speaker of Voldavian Traladaran says, while a speaker of the Volagan Traladaran understands 20% of the Boldavian tongue. The reverse is true for the Viseris language, (50% understood by speaker of Volagan, 20% understood by speaker of Voldavian). Viseri and Voldavian are mutually unintelligible, while Voldavian and Volagan are 80% mutually intelligible. >> I meant that Viseri and BOLDAVIAN are mutually unintelligible. I also realize now that you probably meant that the Flaemish language of the Vlaardoens was the "Dutch" of Mystara; on this I agree. However, before you ask "How can an admixture of Dutch and Slavic equal Russian?" let me answer. The old language of the Flaems was not the same as that spoken by the people of Bergdhoven today; the Flaemish of Bergdhoven has itself been affected by the other migrants into Glantri, most notable the Hattian settlers from Thyatis; this gives it the definitive "Dutch" feel (more toward Boer Afrikaans, I would say). The old language of the Flaems was different, and it is the admixture of the Old Flaemish that helped transform Voldavian into Boldavian... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:46:37 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Mystaran Villain in Ravenloft: the truth revealed >DM pontificated: >>At 19.35 28/04/97 +0100, you wrote: >>>You're kidding, right? MORGorOTH? Snip out the or and you get Morgoth? Ring any bells for anyone? >>>Thorfinn. >>Holy Ixion! i'm sure i've heard that name before, but it escapes me right now! Please, o please, tell me the truth, buy! :) >Lord of the Rings. Master of Sauron. The similarity cought my eyes too, but I guess it might be becuase that type of name just sound evil. >John Yu IIRC, Morgoth = Dark Enemy (from the Quenya), the name given to the Vala Melkor by the Noldo Feanor after Melkor killed the Two Trees of Valinor and Feanor's father, Finwe. Anybody got a copy of the Silmarillion handy? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:52:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] demographyses and such... Form: Memo Text: (17 lines follow) Bruce! I'd be terribly interested in seeing the results of the marketing survery TSR did. Is there any way you can release a sanitized version of it? I'm surious to see what % of the people recognized such things as the D&D name, and the male/female and age group breakdowns. LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:56:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] demographics vs. languages Form: Memo Text: (20 lines follow) Can we please put "languages" in the subject line of those posts on languages and use "demographics" for the stuff dealing with sales/ popularity of the game world? I just think it would be easier for those of use sorting through the stuff here. thanks p.s. Can someone send me the latest almanac (as an attachment or as pieces) to my home email at B1Bard@aol.com? My email got wiped out last week and I lost all of the almanac that I had. LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:24:37 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >Hey George, please don't sign my name at the bottom of your posts! It isn't compurighted or anything, it just isn't done, you know? I am terrible sorry.I didn't meant to do it.I just replied to the mail,erased what I didn't want and forgot your name.Sorry again. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:24:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >>This is off topic . . . but, anyway . . . >You're right, but sometimes an off topic thread can be interesting. And it was quite some time since our intro posts :) >>Cthulhudrew is an anthropology major, Mystaros is an anthro major, I am too (Delarius) . . . anybody else on this list an anthro major? >>Or are the three of us the only truly cool ones here? :) Well, no major for me as of yet but hopefully I will here back from the School of Social Work here at Pitt within the next month. I did take an anthro class, so in the Kogolor HWR you might notice some terms someone who took cultural anthropology may use ;) >>Also, I've noticed that quite a few posters on this list are not from the States . . . so where are y'all from? Just curious . . . I personally never have understood that. I guess Mystara is just popular over many cultures, unlike say the Pittsburgh Pirates (havent seen any foreign posters on that mailing list). I'm a Pittsburgher born and bred, undergrad sophomore college student. Conservative-Orthodox Jew, age 19, male...hmm...been into D&D basically my whole life though I don't RP anymore ('xept MUSHes which I see as true RP) but the setting itself still intrigues me for some reason. Guess I'm not good at kgiving up my youth. I still have transformers around the house for crying out loud :) >And, to throw some legitimate Mystara stuff in here: Is there any region of Mystara which seems to based on the Irish/Welsh/Scotish/Celtic societies? (Other than that one place in Galantri...) Not that I know of, but I don't want to see one region of Mystara or the Hollow World turned into a duplicate of every RL culture. I don't know why that is...then again I have been puzzling for a year or so how to make a culuture that mimicks RL Cuba so I am not one to talk. Any ideas? The Reagan and Bush administrations borrowed more money than all the previous US administrations combined. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:52:23 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... >Aron Reif pontificated: >>I guess I wouldn't mind if Steve Jackson Games bought the rights for it and made it for GURPS. I've played GURPS a few times, and it's alright. Character generation is a pain, though (it takes me HOURS to create a character in GURPS). I'd prefer if it stays with TSR, actually. >Problem with GURPS is SJG tends to have support once then wait for 10 year for a 2nd edition way of coming out with supplements. If SJG got the right to Mystara it will come out with one 200 page book with everything then probably nothing else. As far as I can remember, Fantasy only had 4 or 5 extra supplements and Fantasy II had none. Also, GURPS is not as well suited for high fantasy. If Mystara does get sold, I will like to see it goes to a company that tend to continue supporting a product. As weird as it seems, White Wolf is the first that come to my head, but I don't like the story teller system. ICE also are pretty good at continual support, but they already have a detailed world, same with Colombia Game and Harn Master. Perhaps a small start-up company would purchase the game and make their flag ship product. Hey, how about all of us get together to purchase the right of Mystara, then we don't have to worry about copyright issue anymore :) But, in the end, the best hope for Mystara is probably for WotC to revive it as a more advance campaign for AD&D. >John Yu hey, I'd go along with trying to buy the rights to it. Problem is, we'd probably have to buy the rights to the entire OD&D system because it's so inter-meshed with Mystara. Buying the whole OD&D system would probably be MUCH too expensive, even if we put all our money together. But, hey, if you want to try to convince TSR, go for it... Aron Reif arief@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:34:11 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] When Game meets Reality (and Fiction) At 12:00 PM 4/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-30 08:42:11 EDT, you write: ><< PWA1013 (Joshuan crap) mentions Per Kirvik, >the UFO expert of Glantri, and his intials are the same of one of the greatest UFO experts of real world, Peter Kolosimo (P.K.); just a coincidence? >> >Also: >Per Kirvik (3:6) >Fox Mulder (3:6) >Hmmm.... I think you have too much time on your hands...either that, or you believe there are as many conspiracies as Mulder does... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:05:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-04-30 16:43:20 EDT, you write: << ...then again I have been puzzling for a year or so how to make a culuture that mimicks RL Cuba so I am not one to talk. Any ideas? >> A good place for this would be the easternmost isle in the Thanegioth Archipelago. The native tribes would originally have been an Oltec or Neathar group (Makai+Oltec in my own history). These peoples could have been wiped out by an invasion of Ispans back in the late 800's AC; either a splinter group from the main migration or a seperate group entirely. It's in an area where they could bring in folks from Yavdlom, as well, so the entire "Caribe" culture could be represented (heck, you could rewrite the entire Archipelago as the Carribean, if you wanted to)... Mystaros BTW, in my own history, the easternmost isle in the Archipelago is an analogue of the isle from REH's story "The Gods of Bal-Sagoth". Rather nasty altogether, and quite capable of chewing up most adventurers... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:15:37 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Byzantium << It seems you don't have understand a thing about Byzantium.For more information read my mail, Aleksej Andrievskij's mail and Mystaros' mail and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. >> Whoah, whoah! This is getting way off topic here. I'm sorry for contributing to the beginning of this Byzatium/Greek/Turkish thread, and this is my last post on this off-topic. Again, I'm sorry if I or anyone else offended your sense of nationalism here on this list. But DO NOT criticize me for historical gaffes when you label those of Turkish or Slavic descent as "barbarians". People of those cultures are just as proud of their ancestry as you are, you should respect that. Again, sorry for this whole mess. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:18:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... In a message dated 97-04-30 13:41:47 EDT, you write: << All things considered at this point in time, I seriously doubt WotC would even consider selling or licensing out any of TSR's old worlds. If their revival were remotely possible, I think they would rather handle them thelmselves -- but again -- this is just my take on the current situation. As I mentioned, it was simply for the sake of "What If?". But what I'm getting from your post, and knowing WotC as well as I know WotC, I get the feeling that with this purchase WotC is giving up all pretense of being a part of the "Adventure Gaming Industry". A darned shame, as they had so much promise in the past, and they had such high expectations for cooperation with other companies, and such great hopes for the growth of theindustry as a whole. This turn around doesn't come as a surprise at all; the same thing happens to all companies who get to big for their britches. It's just a shame that WotC seems hell-bent on bringing the rest of the industry down for the sake of their own profitability... they seem to have forgotten that they too were once one of the small guys. Basically, I feel that Mystara doesn't really have a chance as a line at a major company, as TSR's experience has proven. Nothing against the designers in the least; what I mean is, Mystara's potential as a line doesn't meet the various levels of returns that a major company would regard as necessary for profitability. But it would work out fine for a small company, something in the secondary or tertiary level of the industry (for example FASA, ICE and Chaosium are secondary level, while Kenzer, Shadis, and Hog's Head are tertiary level). In other words, Mystara would be great at a certain level of production, but definitely not at the mass market level... and if WotC won't be willing to sell of the rights or license it out, I don't think Mystara will EVER see the light of day again, much like Greyhawk... I fear for the industry as a whole more now than I did ever before. I guess I was just fooling myself. I realized but did not understand that WotC has gone wholly corporate (which is perfectly within their rights, of course). But by doing so they may very well doom the industry that spawned them (ESPECIALLY if they go direct, like TSR was planning on doing). Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:04:35 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >>On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: >>>at least in my experience, I think the reason that it was less successful was because it was written for OD&D. In all my years of gaming (around 15), I've never met another OD&D player. I have met a few Mystara players, but only a handfull of them. It seems like, at least here in the US, 99.99% of role-players play AD&D. Mystara simply didn't sell well because it wasn't written specifically for AD&D. I remember telling lots of my friends "It's a great campaign world, you just have to work a little to convert it." Forgotten Realms was just easier to use, so we always ended up there. >>Curious. Over here in Scotland, I've met at least as many D&D players as AD&D players! >>Thorfinn. >>===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he >>himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk >>===================================================================== >Well, I'm from the US and I still think that OD&D is ten times better than AD&D. Feel free to disagree, but you'll not soon change my mind. I disagree your conclution. I think OD&D is 10 times more cheaper and it's the SAME (YES THE SAME) game. To play OD&D you need only 1 book (and you have rules about castles, war machine, spels, monsters, player's rules, master's rules, maps, etc...) to play AD$D you need at least 3 books and no player can build a castle, or have an army... And the rules are the sames... only bow you have the prices of things such "100 fishes in salmuera " or "little jail" and now you have 100 spells than makes 1d6+1 but all "represents" diferent things ("magic missile" "melf's acid arrow" "Bill Gate's dollar arrow") So, i'll never change my mind too, i'll play D&D ever (but i like RuneQuest too) >Ryan - -- Sebastian Quiles sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #63 **************************** Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 02:42:33 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #64 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, May 1 1997 Volume 02 : Number 064 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:21:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [Mystara] Barbarians? (off-topic)(humor) Warning, way off topic. Georgios Dimitrios Milonas pontificated: >Calling Greeks barbarians,one of the most ancient people in the worls,the nation who gave to the world,the arts,the painting,the theater,sculptur,mathematics,medecine,chemistry,have infuenced most languages of our planet,is like calling your civilatization-barbaric. First of all, I don't recall any part of Chinese culture influenced by Greek, thank you very much. Second of all it is highly evident that Chinese is the most advanced race and everyone else is barbarians. 1. We have less body hair, therefore we must have evloved away from monkeys longer. 2. We are physically weaker (until the female swimmer start pumping steriods, that is). Therefore we must developed technology longer. 3. We have smaller ... um, you know. So we must invented clothing at an earlier time. 4. We are most populated. So we must have centralized for the longest time. 5. We let Europeans/U.S. kick our butt during colonization era and Japanese during WWII just so other cultures can catch up. 6. Beside, if we didn't invent Chinese food take-out first, other cultures development will be restricted as people can't stay up past midnight. (the above is an attempt at humor for people haven't got it yet, just can't resist) John Yu, running before the adminstrator bashes my head in. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:08:34 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Demographics On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: IIn a message dated 97-04-30 04:55:21 EDT, Thorfinn writea: ><< PS - it's a cool word, though, isn't it? :-) >> >Yeah. I was a bit confused about it because "chuffed" sounds like "huffed" wwhich means exactly the opposite (at least it does here in the USA). :) Here too. In case anyone is interested, here are some more Scottish (Orcadian actually I suppose) words: wee (I bet you all knew this one) to ken (as in to know) peedie (that one is specifically Orcadian) stoor Sorry, I can't remember any more right now! :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:59:47 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 Aron Reif wrote: TTTalking of which, what are all the Savage Coast products they printed? Did the Orcs' Head Gazetteer ever see print? >no, most of them never saw a dealer's shelf. The only ones actually published (in book format) were the Red Steel box set and the Savage Baronies expansion. Everything else was strictly online. Kind of a shame... Thanks Aron. So what maps did those sets have in them? The reason I ask is that I have a really cool cut-and-paste montage of the Savage Coast from Dragon magazine up on my wall. I just put it up the other day. I was wondering if there were Champions of Mystara-style maps in it? If there are, then that'll be the whole of Brun almost (the southern coast anyway) on 24-miles-per-hex maps. A very nice wall- poster! Thank you kindly, Thorf. (I'm fed up of typing Thorfinn.) ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:28:59 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] demographyses and such... Hi! >I'd be terribly interested in seeing the results of the marketing survery TSR did. Is there any way you can release a sanitized version of it? I'm surious to see what % of the people recognized such things as the D&D name, and the male/female and age group breakdowns. Me, too. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:24:38 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >I don't know for sure about anyone else though there are a few names that /could/ belong to a female, but then again, they /could/ belong to a male too. And those that regularily use pseudonyms (such as Cthuludrew (sp?)) could be either (though in Cthuludrew's case, I'm pretty sure he's a he and not a she ;-) ) Actually, I'm an asexual alien entity that's currently trapped in the middle of the Atlantic ocean... man, it's cold. Seriously, though, whatever made you think I'm a he? You're right, of course, but I didn't think I came off as being that masculine. ;) In any case, this demographic thread is interesting, methinks. There certainly is a wide variety of Mystara lovers out there. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 04:33:18 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Byzantium BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: ><< It seems you don't have understand a thing about Byzantium.For more information read my mail, Aleksej Andrievskij's mail and Mystaros' mail and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. >> >Whoah, whoah! This is getting way off topic here. I'm sorry for contributing to the beginning of this Byzatium/Greek/Turkish thread, and this is my last post on this off-topic. >Again, I'm sorry if I or anyone else offended your sense of nationalism here on this list. But DO NOT criticize me for historical gaffes when you label those of Turkish or Slavic descent as "barbarians". People of those cultures are just as proud of their ancestry as you are, you should respect that. >Again, sorry for this whole mess. >Delarius No, I don't respect barbarians and killers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:29:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] When Game meets Reality (and Fiction) On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >And in the same isle we can also meet Sir Iggens, an old retired Thyatian soldier who now works as majordomo and caretaker of a big tenant owned by a rich mysterious Thyatian, and who employs two black dogs to guard the house (Zeus, Apollo!), as well as a norse handsome fighter who is a champion in canoeing, Magnus, who is often seen riding a red chariot (Ferrari?). And this guy has 2 good friends, Dizzy, who runs the magic carpet firm of transportation among the isles, and Krik, who owns a private exclusive club (Kamehameha Club?) on Fletcher Island. That is really funny, and it's the kinda thing that give spice and flavour to the campaign! I must have missed the Magnum reference, though after going over the PI profiles and reading GAZ3 with it's gondolas and Glantri Vice, I decided to make an Ierendi vice squad. Two of it's top agents were Sprocket, an Ierendi wizard, and Stubbs, a halfling. They carried hand crossbows as their primary weapons. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 04:37:09 +0300 From: Georgios Dimitrios Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] Barbarians? (off-topic)(humor) Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Warning, way off topic. >Georgios Dimitrios Milonas pontificated: >>Calling Greeks barbarians,one of the most ancient people in the worls,the nation who gave to the world,the arts,the painting,the theater,sculptur,mathematics,medecine,chemistry,have infuenced most languages of our planet,is like calling your civilatization-barbaric. >First of all, I don't recall any part of Chinese culture influenced by Greek, thank you very much. Second of all it is highly evident that Chinese is the most advanced race and everyone else is barbarians. >1. We have less body hair, therefore we must have evloved away from monkeys longer. >2. We are physically weaker (until the female swimmer start pumping steriods, that is). Therefore we must developed technology longer. >3. We have smaller ... um, you know. So we must invented clothing at an earlier time. >4. We are most populated. So we must have centralized for the longest time. >5. We let Europeans/U.S. kick our butt during colonization era and Japanese during WWII just so other cultures can catch up. >6. Beside, if we didn't invent Chinese food take-out first, other cultures development will be restricted as people can't stay up past midnight. >(the above is an attempt at humor for people haven't got it yet, just can't resist) >John Yu, >running before the adminstrator bashes my head in. A good one,but I didn't mention in my mail China which I respect very much. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:58:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cthulhu and D&D On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, DM wrote: >And talking about Cthulhu and R'lyeh and the other nasty lizardlike deities and their followers, has any of you ever had the impression that the Kopru race is the closest thing to a small baby Cthulhu? Actually, I always figured they were more like a Mystaran version of the Mind Flayer. >Personally, i was very intrigued by them, but unfortunately PC3 Sea People doesn't deal with their history as well as i thought and so their culture (especially their presence on the Isle of Dread as was portrayed in X1) is left a bit mysterious and undeveloped. Has any of you ever thought of them as the D&D Spawn of Cthulhu, which might prove the fact that the Evil Old Ones are among us (and yes, Cthulhudrew: the stars are right! They couldn't be more right than now...*shudder with pleasure*) Good. I've been waiting here in R'lyeh for aeons now. First thing I'm gonna do is lay out on the beach and tan for a couple hundred years- you wouldn't believe how white I've gotten!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:26:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Countrspel@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Great Crater/Shadowelf Puzzler In a message dated 97-04-19 06:13:58 EDT, you write: << Spanish. Silver is a common translation of nevada, although it more accurately means silver-colored. Very frequently, as in the Sierra Nevada, this means snow-covered. Patrick >> Being od Spanish descent myself, I have never heard of it meaning silver. Snow covered, yes, although it's not the best of grammar. Plata = silver in my wanderings. But i guess this has gotten as of topic as we needed to..... ;) Jack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:43:30 -2800 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: >Seriously, though, whatever made you think I'm a he? You're right, of course, but I didn't think I came off as being that masculine. ;) Well, that is probably a pretty good guess for anyone that is on this list :) Beside Cthulhudrew is not that feminine a name. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:06:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian Pantheon Here is some of the stuff I have about Nithia, notably, the basics of the pantheon. Note that this is only the very basics, and actually represents only a portion of the various faiths. For exmple, there were several different Priesthoods dedicated to Ra/Rathanos alone, the most notorious being the Ranite Priesthood (Chaotic Evil in nature, the direct ancestor of the Magian Fire Worshippers). More details will be available as they are put into computer format... Immortals of Ancient Nithia Nithian Name Common Name AL Areas of Concern Amon Odin LN The Sky, Winds, Rulership Anhur Ilsundal LG War, General of Horon Ausar Ausar LN Avenger of Orisis Bast Bast CN Cats Bes Bes CN Luck, Protector of Children Eskar Eskar LN Light, Undead Bane Hapi Faunus CN Fertility Haterat* Haterat LN Wife of Orisis, Mothers Horon* Ixion TN The Sun Isiris* Valerias CN Wife of Horon Keb Ka LN The Earth Khnum Khoronus TN Time, River Nithia Maat Maat LN Justice in the Afterlife Mayet Tarastia LN Stability of the Empire Min Thor LN War, Male Virility Munes Asterius TN Trade, Merchants, Thieves Mut Terra LN The Earth Neith Diulanna NG Protecting the Pharaoh Nekheb Loki CN Rebellion against the Empire Nephiris* Tyche CN Luck, Wealth Nun Protius TN The Sea, Primordial Creation Nut Nyx TN The Night, the Stars, Afterlife Orisis* Orisis LG Nithia, Afterlife, Pharaohs Pflarr* Pflarr TN Magic, Hutaaka Ptahr* Kagyar TN Craftsmanship, Metalworking Ra* Rathanos CN Fire, Energy of the Sun Ran Ranivorus CE Gnolls, Destruction of Nithia Satet Djaea TN Fertility, Wife of Khnum Selket Hel CN Magic, the Underworld Seshat Diamond LN Writing, Wife of Thoth Set Set CE Evil Incarnate Shu Frey LN Sky Sobk Atzanteotl NE Crocodiles Tefnut Freyja LN Storms Thanos Thanatos CE Death, The Underworld Thoth* Thoth LN Wisdom, Magic * These nine Immortals are the Nithian Ennead, the "Great Nine" of the pantheon. They come in pairs, with one exception: Horon/Isiris, Orisis/Haterat, Ra/Pflarr, Ptahr/Thoth, and Nephiris, who is often found with Horon/Isiris or Orisis/Haterat. Note: Not all these Immortals were found throughout the entire period of the Nithian Empire (ca. 1700 BC through 500 BC). For example, Sobk/Atzanteotl showed up only later in the era, and Ausar and Eskar were actual Pharaohs who did complete the path to Immortality... Next: A rough draft of the origins of the Nithian Empire... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 00:57:04 -0500 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal dragons Diamond (Celestial of Matter) The Star Dragon Ruler of Lawful Dragons Alignment: LN Sex: Male Race: Dragon Clerical Alignment: Any Lawful Followers Alignment: Any Lawful Required Abilities: Wisdom 12 Intelligence 9 Weapons Allowed: Any Bludgeoning (most worshippers are dragons and do not use weapons) Spells Granted: All (Major) Divination (Major) Elemental Earth (Major) Healing (Major) Guardian (Major) Law (Major) Necromantic (Major) Protection (Major) Sun (Major) Granted Powers: Turn Undead +2 to Turn Undead rolls Receive d10 Hit Points per level instead of d8 Receive exceptional Con and Str bonuses as a fighter Aquire the languages of Dragon-kin (or Human-kin for Dragons) at the rate of one per level. Symbol: A crown resembling a snake swallowing its own tail w/ a diamond on the snake's head. Interests: Lawful Dragons Worshipped in: Anywhere there are dragons. - -- "This could be heaven for everyone This world could be free, this world could be one." Heaven for everyone. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 00:56:56 -0500 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: [Mystara] Re: Immortal Dragons Ok, I am sorry it took me so long to start sending you information on the dragon immortals. I hope that the information I am sending you is satisfactory. Please note that I take no responsibility on the accuracy of the information. I have the statistics of Pearl, The great One, Diamond and Opal from the WOI sets as well as some history for each. I you do not have access to this information please tell me. About tiamat-Thakisis, things are complicated. I consider they are both the same deity insofar as Gods from one Prime plane (eg: Mystara, Faerun, etc) exist in another. They may have different manifestations (avatars) in each of this plane depending on the power of thei worshippers and the overall god-immortal structure. This means that in Krynn Thakisis is extremly powerful, in the realms her power is so low that even before the godswar only a 3 headed avatar was all she could have. Finally, I am presenting the information to the list so anyone who need it can have it. If this starts getting bothersome please complain directly to my mail. Thanks, - -- "This could be heaven for everyone This world could be free, this world could be one." Heaven for everyone. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 00:58:04 -0500 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal dragons >From pierpont@shelley.mitre.orgWed Nov 15 07:55:07 1995 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 10:54:23 EST From: Bruce Pierpont Reply to: mystara-l@io.com To: Mystara-l@io.com Subject: [Mystara] [Specialty Priests] Great One The Great One (Eternal of Matter) Ruler of All Drognkind Alignment: TN Sex: Male Race: Dragon Clerical Alignment: Any Followers Alignment: Any Required Abilities: Wisdom 9 Weapons Allowed: Any bludgeoning Spells Granted: All (Major) Astral (Major) Creation(Major) Divination (Major) Guardian (Major) Numbers (Major) Protection (Major) Thought (Major) Granted Powers: Clerics of the Great One have no power over undead. Fly once per day as per the spell. Learn the languages of Dragonkin (Humankin for Dragons) at the rate of one per level. Shapechange to Half-Dragon form for one hour per level usable once per day. The Half-Dragon is of the appropriate type if the cleric is a dragon, or of a dragon of the clerics alignment, chosen at character creation, if the cleric is human. (q.v. Council of Wyrms for statistics on Half-Dragons. Alternatively the half-dragon should have claw/claw/bite natural attacks, a much reduced breath weapon, and resistances similar to those of the dragon. Exact statistics are left to DM interpretation.) Symbol: Himself (a three-headed dragon) Interests: Dragons Worshipped in: Anywhere dragons are found. - -- "This could be heaven for everyone This world could be free, this world could be one." Heaven for everyone. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 01:06:18 -0500 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal dragons Some history of the Great One as stated in WOI: The great One hatched in a time when dragon races were not quite so distinct from one another; he was a glossy grey hue not found in any of today's dragons. Supremely intelligent and analytical, he survived centries of adventurers trying to take his life and his hoard, survivedlong enough to begin questioning the reason for his existence. He eventually overcame his draconic love of gold and glistening things, recognizing their lack of meaning, and spend more centuries in the company of thinkers from all intelligent races. While among the dryads and acteons of the forest, he learned of the immortal Terra and beseeched her for knowledge. She gave him some, and send him on tasks and errands; ultimately she decided he had promise as a candidate for immortality and sponsored him along the path of the polymath. He won his immortality and turned his attention to helping other dragons become immortal... or at least wiser. He has since learned that there have been other immortal dragons before him, with one Dragon-Lord bearing the title of the Great One, and at tmes other dragons come to the hom plane of the Great One and seek to kill and replace him or her. - -- "This could be heaven for everyone This world could be free, this world could be one." Heaven for everyone. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:12:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Origins of Nithian Empire (LOOONG) Pre-Dynastic Nithia (ca. 2100 BC through 1700 BC) In 2100 BC the region now know as Ylaruam was a verdant region of grasses and fields fed by the great River Nithia. The meadows and fields ended not at the modern coastline but extended yet another 100 miles on to the east, ending in the Great Delta of the River Nithia. The entire region was known as the Eastern Plains, and had been home to the Necromancer-Kings, who ruled their City States in the name of the Eternal Emperor of Taymor. However, rebellion by a number of the Necromancer-Kings (who had been turned from the veneration of Nyx to the worship of Thanatos), caused the Eternal Emperor to purge the City States of that region of their rulers, and in their place he placed an OverKing. The Necromancer-King Nahar, a favorite of the Eternal Emperor, was named OverKing of the Eastern Realm. Nahar built a capital for his kingdom, a city he named Nithus in honor of the great river. His two most powerful lieutenants were the twin brothers Orisis and Setu-Kha, who were given the rule of the cities of Djedet and Payuum respectively. In BC 2000 the Taymoran Empire came to a very abrupt end in the great war between those who had remained loyal to Nyx and the Eternal Emperor and those who had turned to the ways of Thanatos (a battle between Nosferatu and Vampires). The earth heaved, the mountains cracked and the Empire sank beneath the waves. No cities survived south of the Altan Tepes, as the waters of the Sea of Dread finished any communities that were not destroyed in the earthquakes. The realms of the Western Plains (modern Darokin and Alfheim) were destroyed in a great slave uprising, and disappeared from history. It was only in the Eastern Realm, sheltered from the earthquakes and tsunamis, that any Taymoran cities continued to exist. There were nine major states and cities that formed along the banks of the River Nithia following the fall of the Taymoran Empire. The states, listed from east to west: - Tamyris, centered on the city of Tamarnak [South of modern Anram]. This realm, ruled by the Vampire-Queen Nennaya-Sherat, was found in the far west of the Eastern Plains, in what is today known as the Ust-Urt Valley. Nennaya-Sherat had been the leader of the Cult of Spectral Shadow, one of the many Vampiric Cells created by Thanatos. Her realm was ruled in a manner similar to that of the Taymoran City-States of old, with the exception that Thanatos was openly revered, rather than Nyx. - Khyptis, centered on the city of Khypta [modern Sulba]. Ruled by a council of Priests of Nyx who had overthrown their Vampiric overlords during the Taymoran Civil War. They did not trust the rulership in any one leader, so they rejected the ancient traditions of the Necromancer-Kings and ruled through a Council of Priests. The city was retaken by forces loyal to Thanatos within 20 years, sponsored by the Vampire-Queen of Tamyris. Khyptis was annexed by Tamyris in 1950 BC. - Amon-Saar, centered on the city of Djer-Amon [modern Deraan]. This city overthrew its native rulers in favor of rulership by foreign mercenary forces during the chaos following the cataclysm. These mercenaries were Antalian priests from the far north who had fled the internecine wars of their clans. They brought with them the worship of Odin, whom the locals came to revere as Amon. - Herusat, centered on the city of Herunak [modern Ylaruam]. This city was "purified" (i.e., all Nosferatu and Vampires slain, as well as all Priests of Nyx and Thanatos) by followers Horon (Ixion) during the Taymoran Civil War. Ruled by the High Priestess of Horon, Herunak became a beacon of light and knowledge in an otherwise very dark time. - Nupt-Hur, centered on the city of Nubt [modern Kuznetz]. The city of Nubt continued to be ruled after the cataclysm by a Vampiric minion of the OverKing Nahar. - Munein, centered on the city of Munak [West of modern Hedjazi]. Much like the cities of Djer-Amon and Herunak, the city of Munak overthrew its local rulers and religion in favor of a new faith, in this case the reverence of Munes (Asterius), Patron Immortal of the Moon and of Trade. Munes had been quietly revered by the Merchant Clans of the Taymoran Empire, a fact ignored for the most part by the Necromancer-Kings (even they had realized that it would not be wise to anger the Patron Immortal of Commerce). - Payuum, centered on the city of Merunak [on the ancient lake that now is the Great Salt Basin - halfway between Ylaruam and Abbashan]. Also known as the Kingdom of the Lake, or simply the Lake Kingdom. Continued to be ruled by the Necromancer-King Setu-Kha, who was still a Nosferatu in the service of Nyx. - Nithia, centered on the city of Nithus [East of Abbashan]. Ruled by the OverKing Nahar, Nithia was the strongest remaining state after the Civil War. Unfortunately, Nahar had become a Vampiric follower of Thanatos during the final weeks of the Civil War, and had broken with his lieutenants, Orisis and Setu-Kha. - Taameh, centered on the city of Djedet [found in the Great Delta, now long-lost beneath the Sea of Dawn]. Also known as the Kingdom of the East, or the Delta Kingdom. One of the great port cities of Taymor, Djedet continued to be ruled by the Necromancer-King Orisis, who was still a Nosferatu in the service of Nyx. After the Civil War and the cataclysm most of the cities were in ruins, and the population levels were greatly reduced from their pre-war levels. Nithus, the largest of the cities, had an urban population no greater than perhaps 10,000 (down from pre-war levels of over 100,000!). Altogether, the cities contained fewer than 80,000 souls. The remaining rural population, having been spared much of the wrath of the Necromancer-Kings, was between eight and ten times that remaining in the cities. Over 80% of the "rural" population was found in villages along the River Nithia; the other 20% was spread out across the plains on great ranches and irrigated plantations. Most of the plains were devoid of civilization, and isolated settlements were rare, as the Necromancer-Kings had always demanded strictest control over the populace. During the final weeks of the Civil War the ruler of Nithus had turned to the ways of Thanatos; he had been opposed in this regard by several of his progeny, which were led by the twin brothers Orisis and Setu-Kha. Shortly after the cataclysm, the brothers were able to depose and dispose of their master. Orisis ascended to the throne of the OverKing, as he was the popular leader and elder of the twins (though only by minutes). Many of the cities did not recognize his rule, as they had rejected the old ways or were still ruled by minions of Thanatos; thus, the title of OverKing was effectively an empty one. Still, Orisis was the overlord of the eastern third of the Eastern Realm, which included the largest city (Nithus) and the rich Delta Kingdom and fertile Lake Kingdom (Payuum). However, Thanatos was still not satisfied with the destruction of the majority of the Taymoran Empire, and he saw a unique opportunity for destruction in the relationship between Orisis and Setu-Kha. Thanatos was able to convince him that he should take the throne from Orisis, and was able to turn Setu-Kha over to his side, to become a Vampire. Setu-Kha rebelled against his brother in 1950 BC, and attacked the city of Nithus with allies from Tamyris and Nubt. He was defeated however, and he and his servants were forced to flee from the Eastern Realm. He fled to an island in the newly formed northern Sea of Dread, the legendary Isle of the Serpent where now lie the Isles of Ierendi. He gathered his own allies from the darker realms, notably the Serpentines of Davania, who sent him Lizard Men as shock troops. His servants also brought Makai Slaves from the southern isles, to serve him and his people. Orisis spent the next 50 years rebuilding his kingdom, purging the land of Payuum of its corruption. He also conquered the city of Nubt, and was able to make the rulers of the city of Munak recognize him as their OverKing (though he left their faith untouched... Orisis had become more tolerant in the years following the cataclysm). During this period Orisis became acquainted with a traveller from the far east, an elderly wizard who went by the name Thoth. Thoth and Orisis became quick friends, despite the Undying nature of the OverKing. Thoth revealed himself to be one of the legendary Stone Folk who was on a great quest: he was searching for the reason behind the slow demise of the Elder Dwarven race. Orisis was unable to help him directly, though he was able to inform Thoth about Dwarven settlements to the north. Thoth eventually continued on to the Dwarven lands in the north, accompanied by his companion, the Dwarf known as Laughing Axe. After a very nasty encounter with the minions of the Vampire- Queen Nennaya-Sherat, the pair finally reached the lands of the Kogolor Dwarves in 1900 BC [modern Rockhome]. The elderly sage and his companion were surprised to discover not only Dwarves, but also a race of Humans living in the mountains. The Humans were a tribe of Neathar that had been pushed out of the Northern Plains by invading hordes of Oltecs around 2000 BC; they had long been the allies of the Dwarves, and found refuge among them. But the Neathar were nomads, and found the mountains and valleys to be extremely restrictive. During his time in the Kogolor lands, when he was not investigating the history of the Dwarves, Thoth regaled the Neathar with tales of the rich plains to the south which were dominated by Tamyris, the realm ruled by Nennaya-Sherat. Being a friend of Orisis, who was an enemy of Nennaya-Sherat, and having his own vendetta against the Vampire-Queen, Thoth convinced the Neathar clans to cleanse the plains of the realm of Nennaya- Sherat. In doing so, they would win their own lands, lands that were not unlike those they had left behind a hundred years before. Thoth communicated with Orisis using magical means, and set up a series of meetings whereby the Neathar clans would join with the forces of Orisis in a concerted effort to destroy the realm of Tamyris. In return for his assistance, the Neathar were able to acquaint Thoth with their Patron Immortal, Kagyar, for the Neathar were known as the People of Kagyar. [Eventually, Thoth would convince Kagyar to assist the Dwarves, and Thoth would go on to earn Immortality under the sponsorship of Kagyar]. Khypta was taken by the united forces of the People of Kagyar and the forces of the city of Nithus in 1875 BC, and in 1850 BC the allies destroyed Tamarnak itself. Her city razed and her forces shattered, Nennaya-Sherat fled to the Isle of Serpents where abode her ally, Setu-Kha. The People of Kagyar had settled in the plains around Khypta in 1875 BC, and eventually they rebuilt the city, renaming it Khyptahr. Over the years they would eventually adopt many Nithian customs. They became known to the Nithians as the "Ptahr Al-Dar" ("House of Ptahr" (Kagyar)). During this period Orisis was able to bring Herunak and Djer-Amon into his kingdom, as part of the alliance against Nennaya-Sherat and Setu-Kha. Again, he allowed the people to keep their own faith, and allowed them self-rule of their cities and lands. With the destruction of Tamarnak, Orisis became the single ruler of the entire Eastern Realm. After the fall of Tamarnak, Orisis took to studying the many different faiths among the people of his kingdom. During this time he became a good friend of Haterat, the High Priestess of Horon and Queen of Herunak. Over the years Nyx kept warning Orisis that she did not like the manner in which he was diluting her worship, and thus her power, among the people of his kingdom. He argued long and hard, across many years with his Patron, claiming that the single mindedness of the Taymoran faith was part and parcel of the old empires downfall. He could never convince her of the necessity of balance among faiths, however, and she slowly withdrew her support from him. Somehow, minions of Thanatos learned of the falling out between Immortal and OverKing, and relayed that information to Setu-Kha, who still stewed on his isle to the southwest. In 1800 BC Setu-Kha was able to assassinate Orisis. He dispersed his body across the Known World [much like the body of Osiris was in RW Mythology], and took control of Nithus. The various kingdoms rebelled against their new OverKing, especially the Ptahr al-Dar of Khyptahr. Setu-Kha and Nennaya-Sherat ruled Nithus with an iron fist, and sent their Lizard Men warriors out to conquer the "rebel" kingdoms. Warfare and rebellion lasted for their entire rule. The pair cast down the ziggurats dedicated to Nyx and built temples dedicated to Thanatos in their place. Thousands of captives died in horrible sacrifice to the Immortal of Death. Meanwhile, Haterat, friend and ally of Orisis, sought out the body parts of her friend across the Known World. In forty years she was able to bring his whole body back together again, and through the intervention of Horon was able to bring Orisis back to life. In this case Orisis was resurrected into true Life, not the Undead state of the Nosferatu (Nyx had totally abandoned her wayward son). He was henceforth known as the Resurrected Orisis, Son of Horon. The Resurrected Orisis returned to Nithus in 1760 BC to find it in a state of abject tyranny. Entire regions of the Eastern Realm had been depopulated to feed the dark hungers of Thanatos and his minions. Nennaya-Sherat had built a Dark Tower upon the ruins of her ancient city of Tamarnak, and conducted horrible experiments therein. The only city that had not been conquered by Setu-Kha was Khyptahr, home of the Ptahr Al-Dar. The Resurrected Orisis made that city the base of his operations. He coordinated attacks with his ally, Thoth, who was now King of his own kingdom, O-Ptahr, on the Great Escarpment on the isle across the sea to the east. A fortuitous occurrence happened for the Resurrected Orisis in 1758 BC. A large group of refugees from far-away Adakkia were fleeing persecution at the hands of their Emperor and his Priesthood. These refugees were Wizards and Priests of the highest caliber, worshippers of the Immortal Rathanos. They had approached Setu-Kha for aid, not realizing his nature until it was too late. During their meeting Setu-Kha had the Adakkian ambassadors slain on a whim and their functionaries sacrificed for the greater glory of Thanatos. He then had sent them a message, delivered by the animated corpse of the senior ambassador, that the same treatment awaited any others who would deal with him. Thus, they contacted the Resurrected Orisis, and sought an alliance. With his new allies from the far south, and with his old allies, the Ptahr Al-Dar and the people of O-Ptahr, Orisis caught the forces of Setu-Kha in a massive pincer. Thoth and his people (the Stone Folk and the Gnomes of the Isle of Dawn) attacked from the east, through the Delta region, and the Ptahr Al-Dar attacked from the west. The Adakkian Wizards and Priests were everywhere, though they concentrated their efforts on containing Nennaya- Sherat and her force of monsters and magical constructs. It took ten years, but eventually the Resurrected Orisis and his forces were victorious, and overthrew the dark rulers. Setu-Kha and Nennaya-Sherat, however, fled to their citadel on the Isle of the Serpent, and continued to harry the Resurrected Orisis and his peoples. During the next 50 years (1750 through 1700 BC), the Resurrected Orisis took the battle to Setu-Kha's island. During this time the society of the Eastern Realm also underwent rapid evolution. The cities of the Eastern Realm became more diverse religiously and culturally; while each city (and often village) continued to be the center of worship for a specific Immortal, all cities had at least a shrine to all the various Immortals found in the Eastern Realm. This was partly due to Setu-Kha's attempts to control the peoples of the various kingdoms by dispersing them throughout the land, weakening their ties to their native faith and culture. In fact, it had the opposite effect in the long run, as the cultures across the Eastern Realm became more diversified, yet at the same time became more united through that diversity. As the majority of the peoples throughout the land were from the Kingdom of Nithia, the entire peoples across the land began to regard themselves as Nithians, and identified more with the land as a whole rather than with just their one city or kingdom. Also uring this period Thoth developed a new writing system, called Hieroglyphics, based on the old Taymoran cuneiform script; this was used to further unite the people, as it was a method to focus their new cultural identity. The Adakkians were not idle during this time either. They had been granted the ancient lands of the realm of Nennaya- Sherat, and there they built two great cities on the banks of the Eastern Branch of the River Nithia. These cities, Ustar and Urtum, eventually gave their name to the valley between the two branches of the River Nithia, the Ust-Urt Valley. The Adakkians cast down the Dark Tower of the Vampire-Queen, and what they could not destroy, they buried, sealed with great runes of power. The worship of their Patron Immortal, Rathanos, spread throughout the land, and he quickly became a popular Immortal among the Wizards of the realm. Ustar became his "Home" city, and was the center of worship for his Priesthood. Urtum became the home of the Adakkian College of Wizardry, and in 1730 BC was the home of a Wizard who created a certain guardian servant by the name of Pflarr. Of all the cultural and social developments that occurred during this short time, the greatest was the introduction of Iron, through the graces of the people of Thoth (who had never truly left the iron-age). The use of iron weapons and armor gave the forces of the Resurrected Orisis a tremendous advantage over the forces of Setu-Kha, and they were able to press the attack even further. By 1710 BC the forces of the Resurrected Orisis were regularly raiding the Isle of the Serpent itself, and the end of the long war was in sight. The forces of the Resurrected Orisis finally overthrew the forces of Setu-Kha in a great battle on the Isle of the Serpent in 1700 BC. Horon-Ausar, the son of the Resurrected Orisis and Haterat (born BC 1755), slew Setu-Kha on the steps of his own royal dias. [Though of course, as all know, he was later returned to Unlife by his faithful ally, Nennaya-Sherat, and went on to earn Immortality under the sponsorship of Thanatos]. Shortly thereafter, the Isle of the Serpent blew up in the seismic activity that followed the Elven folly in the area that is now the Broken Lands. Upon the end of Setu-Kha's kingdom, the Resurrected Orisis renamed the Eastern Realm the Nithian Empire, to finalize the change in culture and religion that had taken place over the last fifty years. He then turned the rule of the Empire over to his son Horon-Ausar, who became the first Pharaoh of the Nithian Empire. Rather than taking the title OverKing, the new title "Pharaoh" was used, which meant "Viceroy"; the Pharaoh was to be the representative of the Immortals on Mystara. In late 1700 BC the Resurrected Orisis and his wife, Haterat, disappeared into the east on their quest for true Immortality under the sponsorship of Horon... Of course, none of this is Canon, and it is all of my own design... Enjoy! Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #64 **************************** Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:59:21 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #65 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 806619e10d1f97cca1b972eae7b55cde mystara-digest Thursday, May 1 1997 Volume 02 : Number 065 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:20:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cthulhu and the Dimension of Nightmares I've always felt that the way that the Dimension of Nightmares was portrayed in Mystaran literature was a bit funky... you've got all sorts of nasty stuff, yet the major population of the place are the Diaboli, who seem to be a new-ageish bunch of beach bunnie anarchists. Didn't quite jibe with me, so I made the DoN peopled by critters even nastier than the Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collectors); essentially, the home of the Old Ones of HPL. I felt it had a LOT more potential then, especially considering it's connection to the Order of Illusionists of Glantri (or the Secret Craft of Dream Magic in AD&D terms)... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 01:18:31 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cthulhu and the Dimension of Nightmares On Thu, 1 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >I've always felt that the way that the Dimension of Nightmares was portrayed in Mystaran literature was a bit funky... you've got all sorts of nasty stuff, yet the major population of the place are the Diaboli, who seem to be a new-ageish bunch of beach bunnie anarchists. They never really did much with the DoN, did they? Shame... >Didn't quite jibe with me, so I made the DoN peopled by critters even nastier than the Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collectors); essentially, the home of the Old Ones of HPL. I felt it had a LOT more potential then, especially considering it's connection to the Order of Illusionists of Glantri (or the Secret Craft of Dream Magic in AD&D terms)... What if the Burrowers, who inarguably are based on the Old Ones of HPL, actually originated in the DoN? HW says Thanatos created them, but what if he didn't? What if he only made it possible for them to gain access to the "normal" dimension and Mystara? There could be more of them over there... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:24:34 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: [Mystara] A Natural History of Mystara : Many Hidden Secrets Revealed I have been reading all the posts about how the species developed in Mystara from the saurials and this made me think. I have always wondered why there would still exist normal animals in fantasy worlds, where magical ones would be so much more efficient in their hunting or evading their predators. It would be just a matter of a few generations and the normal, less-equiped ones would have gone. My explanation for this was simple: the organs of the magical beasts have magical properties and, this way, they are hunted by every intelligent being capable of magic, keeping their numbers low. Now, how would that apply to old mystaran history? Here comes my personal view on old Mystara natural history (I am still thinking about it and suggestions and criticisms would be most welcome): In the very old times, there were no intelligent beings in the surface of Mystara, just normal animals, that evolved slowly into other forms of life, as per the ususal evolutionary theories. From time to time, one magical being would appear, but not transmit its characteristics to its descendents, when it had them. Then, around 500,000 BC, the first magical species, capable of reproduction and the transmission of their magical abilities, developed in Mystara. For obvious reasons, they were very successful and soon, a whole continent was populated by them. The ability to access the magical energies from the planet also made their mutations more probable. In a few thousand years, that original species (is this the right singular form?) had evolved into many different forms, with several different abilities adapted to diferent niches. Predators and prey soon had to have magical abilties to survive. Soon, more powerful species were developing in a fast spiral. That was the era when Ka, Protius, Ixion, Thanatos and other ancient Immortals whose pasts are unkown or very ancient were born, as mortals. The first intelligent species were also appearing by then. At that time, there were no rules to achieve Immortality as there were no Immortals (just the Old Ones watching, maybe). The most powerful beings started to develop their abilities beyond what nature had given them. Some learned how to avert death, becoming immortals through their magic. After sometime, the planet had many of them, each controlling their territory, some just wandering and collecting knowledge. World-shaking wars started, with continents being razed and too many species being destroyed. Most of those immortals were killed then, they knew nothing about home-planes and have lected Mystara as such. Those wars lead to alliances between the Immortals and many betrayals. After thousands of years, just a few great houses remained in the planet, but none more powerful for that. All their resources were consumed in the wars and nobody was happy. War makes odd allies and five great houses decided to settle things right, making some rules. They were able to win and the 5 spheres as we know them today are the offspring of thse VERY powerful house. They created a powerful spell, that restricted access to Immortality and cast it. (we could even explain the fairy history about being immortals and then cast out, they belonged to a 6th house who didn't get into the alliance but managed to survive until today with their immortality, but no Immortality, intact). Some of them had already discovered the other planes and they moved their headquarters to other planes, modifying or creating them in the proccess. Soon, they realized that the same proccess that had spawned them in Mystara, could also create other Immortals elsewhere. Once more, they researched to improve the potency of their spell, so that they could make immortality difficult in the whole Multiverse. But the Vortex Dimension was inaccessible and that was when they started believing some more powerful beings could exist. Back in Mystara, things were starting to stabilize. Immortality was still achievable, but very hard to get, only through extense researches and lots of power a creature would get it. The Carnifex appeared then as the dominat intelligent species, under the tutelage of many Immortals of those times. They eventually get almost as powerful as the old immortals, some of them achieving that status by themselves. That was when they challenged the Immortals' power in another Great War, as someone else suggested, lost and were banished. But they got close to the victory, with many Immortals siding with them and almost complete destruction to everyone's favorite world again. The history in the Dragonlord Trilogy (SPOILER WARNING) tell us of how the dragons believe they are descendents of the Eldar, who tried to achieve Immortality and got transformed into dragons. Some went further, being transformed into the gemstone dragons. I'd suggest these are old legends with some truth in them. It is basically true, but for the fact they descend from the Carnifex, not from the Eldar. Maybe the Eldar descend from the Carnifex also, though, and that's why they are in such good terms with the dragons. (END OF SPOILER WARNING) Also, I'd place the old carnifex capital or one important city of theirs in the Wallara country. Finally, after so many problems, a Council of Immortals happened in Matera, where Pandius were to be built. After some discussion, they decided for the rules that govern their behavior nowadays, as well as to make access to their status even more difficult. They agreed on the basics of the procedure: looking for a sponsor, trial, testimony, etc. and left the details up to each Sphere. They also erased all the knowledge about reaching Immortality by oneself from the world and those few who survived the war with the carnifex vowed never to reveal it again. That's why they are not willing to talk about their pasts. And maybe one extra reason for Ixion hate Rad's researches, he won't have Immortals appearing with just one successful spell cast, as in the old times. But he was not willing to discuss this with the "new" Immortals who were not there to see all the destruction Immortals popping everywhere might cause. Incidentally, this theory also states that Mystara was the origin for most fantasy species in the other worlds, as well as their gods. Their gods are Immortals who gave up their home planet and decided to populate and control easier targets :) I would like to know what you think about this and if there are any parts that contradict with the canon. Andre Martins ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 12:22:34 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) At 01.21 30/04/97 -0400, Delarius wrote: >But please, all of you on this list who are not from the USA. Please don't get offended if we goof when referring to your cultural and national history. MMost of us aren't too keen on history . . . and many of us who are don't necessarily have it right. And even if we do, we may have a different perspective on it than you might. Let me explain a thing that probably it's not well know on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean (well, at least before these Byzantium thread started): there's a strong rivalry (maybe "hatred" is a better word) between Greeks and Turks. It's a thing of ancient and recent history, of wars and invasions... from Troy till today I would say. This hatred is especially strong among Greeks, as our good friend Georgios Dimitrios Milonas showed us :) Hope this will help avoid racial epithets in future. PS: I don't know how things work in America (North, South and Central :), but here in Europe national rivalries can be very strong, due to a longer history or wars and the like. Local pride is often very strong too, and my region, Tuscany, is a good example of it, in fact everyone in Lucca, my hometown, know that people from Pisa, the city with the leaning tower, are a bunch of (censored) :-) Ok, enough rambling... ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:43:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cthulhu and the Dimension of Nightmares Mystaros@aol.com pontificated: >I've always felt that the way that the Dimension of Nightmares was portrayed in Mystaran literature was a bit funky... you've got all sorts of nasty stuff, yet the major population of the place are the Diaboli, who seem to be a new-ageish bunch of beach bunnie anarchists. Well, I think DoN are suppose to seem nasty just because of our point of view. We are every bit as scary to them as them to us. I actaully sort like that idea, that as players gain in knowledge they can find out some of the evil monsters they have been fighting all these years are equivalent of a scared and confused tiger trapped somehow away from its home. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:07:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Immortal Dragons In a message dated 97-05-01 10:52:20 EDT, you write: << About tiamat-Thakisis, things are complicated. I consider they are both the same deity insofar as Gods from one Prime plane (eg: Mystara, Faerun, etc) exist in another. They may have different manifestations (avatars) in each of this plane depending on the power of thei worshippers and the overall god-immortal structure. This means that in Krynn Thakisis is extremly powerful, in the realms her power is so low that even before the godswar only a 3 headed avatar was all she could have. >> This is interesting. In my own campaign I never adapted Mystara to the Spelljammer or Planescape cosmology. I kept the Immortals and the Gods seperate types of entities, and placed the AD&D worlds in another Dimension of the Mystaran Planar Cosmology (called the "Dimension of the Great Wheel" by the Immortals and the few powerful mortals who are aware of it; so called, of course, because of the arrangement of the Outer Planes in that dimension). So the Immortal Odin of Mystara is not the God Odin of other AD&D worlds, etc. I did this mostly because I preferred the Infinite Variety available through the Mystaran Multiverse, and I also didn't think much of the Crystal Sphere/Phlogiston Prime Plane of Spelljammer, and even less of the chant-based Outer Planes of Planescape. Well anyway, what this meant was that if I desired to have other certain Immortals based on the gods and powerds of AD&D, I had to create them in Immortal terms... or, I could simply afdapt other Immortals, and have the desired "Immortal" simply be an aspect or avatar of an older Immortal. What I did in the case of Tiamat and Bahamut (whom I really wanted in my Mystara, as they were intricately tied into the nature and origin of the Chromatic and Metallic Dragons of my campaign) was make them Aspects of the Immortals Hel and Odin. Both these Immortals were so old that they didn't remmeber thei origins, which was a good indication that they'd been around long enought for the job required. Tiamat/Hel was the Patron Immortal of the Chromatic Dragons of Brun, and Bahamut/Odin was the Patron Immortal of the Metallic Dragons of Davania (Izondia). There is a whole cycle of Mysth and Legend built around the Draconic Empire of the Chromatics (which once stood where the Wyrmsteeth Range now stands) and the Golden Empire of the Metallics, home of all Good Spam Creatures. (Which once lay in the lands of modern Izonda). Both empires had been a force to be reckoned with in the Age of Blackmoor, and the Draconic Empire had even challenged that ancient kingdom for supremacy, and nearly won... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:19:43 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal dragons On Thu, 1 May 1997, Enrique Pacheco wrote: >Diamond (Celestial of Matter) >The Star Dragon >Ruler of Lawful Dragons <> Excuse me. When I sent these to the list I meant for people to use them. I didn't mind so much when people started adding them to their web pages. I started getting anooyed when people stopped putting my name on them. Now people are starting to post them as if they were their own ideas, I don't care if you use them, I don't care if you post them, mail them, put them on their web page, etc. just give credit to the person that wrote them (me). StarHawk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:01:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] A Natural History of Mystara : Many Hidden Secrets Revealed In a message dated 97-05-01 11:12:39 EDT, you write: << I would like to know what you think about this and if there are any parts that contradict with the canon. Andre Martins Very interesting ideas you are developing. I would say that it is a very Mystaracentric view (vis a vis the Multiverse), but that works well for a campaign. I wouldn;t say that it goes against Canon, as it works well within the Canonical information that we have available. I'd push the dates back Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:59:21 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #65 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 806619e10d1f97cca1b972eae7b55cde into the millions of years rather than the hundreds of thousands though (by that's just the way I think). I'd also add something about the involvement of the Elemental Planes, as at least Terra originates from there. Maybe it was a tie to the Elemental Planes that caused the evolution of the magical species (Giants are be a perfect example of this kind of relationship). I think you need to flesh the story out some more, but I think it has a lot of potential. Of course, I already have my own Mystaran Genesis, but that is what works for me... :) Mystaos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:02:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dynasties of the Nithian Empire Dynasties of the Kingdom and Empire of Nithia Pre-Dynastic Period ca. 2100-1700 BC Years BC Ruler ? - 2000 Nahar, The Necromancer-King (deposed) 2000 - 1800 Orisis ("son"; murdered by Setu-Kha) 1800 - 1750 Setu-Kha (brother; Usurper) 1750 - 1700 The Resurrected Orisis Early Kingdoms Period First Dynasty (Nithian) 1700-1570 BC Years BC 1700 - 1677 Horon Ausar (son) 1677 - 1647 Horon Ptahr (son) 1647 - 1642 Horon Thoth (brother) 1642 - 1633 Horon Munes (son of Horon Ptahr) 1633 - 1598 Horon Hatarat (daughter) 1598 - 1592 Horon Eskar (son) 1592 - 1572 Horon Qaal (brother) 1572 - 1570 Horon Setukhare (son of Horon Eskar) Second Dynasty (Nithian) 1570-1392 BC Years BC Ruler 1570 - 1529 Ausar Eskar (grandson of Horon Hatarat) 1529 - 1488 Ausar Djetar (son) 1488 - 1462 Ausar Senek (son) 1462 - 1442 Ausar Ranak (nephew) 1442 - 1431 Ausar Paranmaat (daughter) 1431 - 1408 Ausar Horon (son) 1408 - 1392 Setu Herkete (brother) Early Imperial Period Third Dynasty (Ustarian) 1392-1323 BC Years BC Ruler 1392 - 1376 Ra Setukhare (High Priest of Ra) 1376 - 1358 Ra Ausar (son) 1358 - 1351 Rehanu Eskar (son) 1351 - 1345 Rehanu Pflarr (brother) 1345 - 1323 Rehanu Khare (brother) Fourth Dynasty (Munakite) 1323-1257 BC Years BC 1323 - 1305 Munere Rehanure (High Priest of Munes) 1305 - 1290 Munere Taphire (son) 1290 - 1281 Munere Auskare (brother) 1281 - 1275 Munere Amonhotep (son of Munere Taphire) 1275 - 1260 Munere Horonhetep (brother) 1260 - 1257 Munere Thothbesre (son) Fifth Dynasty (Urtani) 1257-1146 BC Years BC 1257 - 1227 Pflarr Nefere (great-grandson of Ra Ausar) 1227 - 1225 Pflarr Nebkhere (grandson) 1225 - 1205 Pflarr Nebkhefre (son) 1205 - 1195 Pflarr Rakhefret (widow) 1195 - 1179 Pflarr Khefrenkhare (son of Pflarr Nebkhefre) 1179 - 1155 Pflarr Menhetkhare (son) 1155 - 1153 Pflarr Menhethotep (brother; deposed) 1153 - 1146 Pflarr Nefere II (grandson of Pflarr Nebkhere) Middle Imperial Period Sixth Dynasty (Thothite) 1146-1009 BC Years BC 1146 - 1134 Thoth Besre (Vizier of Pflarr Menhetkhare) 1134 - 1118 Thoth Horonhetep (grandson) 1118 - 1108 Thoth Eskarhesure (son) 1108 - 1093 Thoth Ramenhotep (brother) 1093 - 1083 Thoth Sebretep (son) 1083 - 1074 Thoth Ramenbesre (son) 1074 - 1014 Thoth Amonre (son) 1014 - 1009 Thoth Ramenhotep II (grandson; deposed) Seventh Dynasty (Amonite) 1009-895 BC Years BC 1009 - 997 Amon Raheru (High Priest of Amon) 997 - 962 Amon Ausar I (High Priest of Amon) 962 - 952 Amon Eskar I (son; High Priest of Amon) 952 - 962 Amon Ausar II (brother; High Priest of Amon) 962 - 940 Amon Eskar II (son of Amon Eskar I) 940 - 932 Amon Orisis (son) 932 - 910 Amon Ausarmaat (daughter) 910 - 907 Amon Ausar III (son) 907 - 895 Amon Harakhate (brother; deposed) Latter Imperial Period Eighth Dynasty (Ranite) 895-849 BC Years BC 895 - 886 Rathan Tephere (Vizier of Amon Ausar III) 886 - 878 Rathan Amonausar (vizier) 878 - 872 Rathan Askar (vizier) 872 - 862 Rathan Rehanu (vizier) 862 - 849 Rathan Remonre (son; deposed) Ninth Dynasty (Nithian) 849-834 BC Years BC 849 - 846 Ran Herukhate (General of the Nithian Army) 846 - 834 Rathan Ranhotep (son; deposed) Tenth Dynasty (Nuari) 834-776 BC Years BC 834 - 818 Ausar Nuarheru I (King of Nuar) 818 - 810 Ausar Nuarehanu (nephew) 810 - 795 Ausar Tuarhotep (brother) 795 - 788 Ausar Nuarheru II (son of Ausar Nuarheru I) 788 - 787 Ausar Nuarmenhotep (nephew; deposed) 787 - 779 Ausar Nuarheru III (brother) 779 - 776 Ausar Nuarausar (son; deposed) Later Kingdoms Period Eleventh Dynasty (Nithian) 776-750 BC Years BC 776 - 771 Horon Eskere (Noble of the line of Horon Ausar) 771 - 770 Horon Orisre I (brother) 770 - 763 Horon Munere (son of Horon Eskere) 763 - 750 Horon Orisre II (son of Horon Orisre I) Twelfth Dynasty (Nithian) 750-700 BC Years BC 750 - 733 Ran Thanosre (High Priest of Thanatos) 743 - 732 Ran Thanhotep (High Priest of Thanatos) 732 - 729 Ran Thanseture (High Priest of Thanatos) 729 - 726 Ran Thanranre (High Priest of Thanatos) 726 - 714 Ran Thaneskare (High Priest of Thanatos) 714 - 700 Ran Thanherusre (High Priest of Thanatos) Thirteenth Dynasty (Thanite) 700-500 BC Horon Orisre II, corrupted by Thanatos, took the name Thanorise, which the Milenians came to know as "Taphose". There was only one Thanorisre, but he took on a new human body every couple years as the old body faded away under the corruption of Entropy (A Quasi-Lich, so to speak). Thus, there were "Thirteen Pharaohs" during this, the final Nithian dynasty. Years BC 700 - 670 Thanorisre I 670 - 644 Thanorisre II 644 - 620 Thanorisre III 620 - 599 Thanorisre IV 599 - 580 Thanorisre V 580 - 563 Thanorisre VI 563 - 549 Thanorisre VII 549 - 537 Thanorisre VIII 537 - 526 Thanorisre IX 526 - 518 Thanorisre X 518 - 511 Thanorisre XI 511 - 505 Thanorisre XII 505 - 500 Thanorisre XIII ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:30:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Traladaran language On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Georgios Dimitrios Milonas wrote: >Diego wrote: >Yes, but it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Zthe ttthytains therefore could be said to be a Roman/ Greek/ Turkish people. IIt seems you don't have understand a thing about Byzantium.For more information read my mail, Aleksej Andrievskij's mail and Mystaros' mail and please everybody stop calling Byzantium turks or slavs.You are insulting us,because we are Greeks and not barbarians like them. MMystaros The Byzantine empire used many scandinavians (esp. Norwegian ans Swedes IIRC) in their armies, often as Higher ranking officers. Now thats barbaric too, right? :) Haavard, the Barbarian Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 13:00:56 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 06:24 PM 4/30/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >>Cthuludrew (sp?)) could be either (though in Cthuludrew's case, I'm pretty sure he's a he and not a she ;-) ) >Seriously, though, whatever made you think I'm a he? You're right, of course, but I didn't think I came off as being that masculine. ;) you're right...I always thought you came off as a GIRLY MAN... :) Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 12:58:45 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels >Thanks Aron. So what maps did those sets have in them? The reason I ask is that I have a really cool cut-and-paste montage of the Savage Coast from Dragon magazine up on my wall. I just put it up the other day. I was wondering if there were Champions of Mystara-style maps in it? If there are, then that'll be the whole of Brun almost (the southern coast anyway) on 24-miles-per-hex maps. A very nice wall- poster! >Thank you kindly, >Thorf. (I'm fed up of typing Thorfinn.) if you're looking for the hex-map style, then you're out of luck with the box sets. However, I do seem to remember that when the original "Princess Ark" stuff was published in Dragon Magazine the accompanying maps were in hex format. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 13:20:56 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) At 12:22 PM 5/1/97 +0200, you wrote: >PS: I don't know how things work in America (North, South and Central :), but here in Europe national rivalries can be very strong, due to a longer history or wars and the like. Local pride is often very strong too, and my region, Tuscany, is a good example of it, in fact everyone in Lucca, my hometown, know that people from Pisa, the city with the leaning tower, are a bunch of (censored) :-) well, I know next to nothing about Central or South America, but here in the States we don't really have any "rival" nations, at least not like you're referring to. As far as I know, we don't hate anybody simply because their from a certain country. Sure, we didn't like Russia for a while, but we didn't hate the Russian people, just their government. I don't want to sound like some kind of "holier-than-thou" moron ("we're so much better because we love everybody"), I just don't think we've been around as a country for long enough to build up such intense nationalism. For example, we were at war with Japan just 50 years ago, but now they're our best friends. We're buddies with Russia now too, and the Cold War ended only 5 or 6 years ago. Maybe the general American population just doesn't care about world politics. There certainly is evidence for this: most Americans probably don't ever leave the US. I'm guessing that most of you (since most of you are from Europe) have probably visited a dozen countries by now. I only left the US for the first time a few months ago, and I'm 23. If it wasn't for that short trip to the Bahamas, I might not have left until I was in my 40s. The US is such a big and diverse country that we can travel for many years and never leave it (not that it's all good, there's just alot to see). Another example: most Americans know only one language. I'm betting that most of you know at least a few. >Ok, enough rambling... yeah, me too... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 12:33:00 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lizards in Davania? >Well, I felt that "Challenging the Immortals" was a lot more romantic than "They built a weapon and it fizzled, so the Immortals banished them anyway". I tend to mythologize the parts of Mystaran history that I feel are otherwise... well.. wimpy. I thought it would be much cooler for these beings to have challenged the Immortals; it would give them even more reason to be very angry... Maybe it was more of a "Tower of Babel" sort of thing....the Immortals realized that the Carnifex _could_ possibly do anything - thus they took them out... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:39:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thyatian Varangian Guard In a message dated 97-05-01 13:58:05 EDT, you write: << The Byzantine empire used many scandinavians (esp. Norwegian ans Swedes IIRC) in their armies, often as Higher ranking officers. Now thats barbaric too, right? :) Ahh, the Varangian Guard! Has anyone developed a similar institution for the Empire of Thyatis? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 12:56:48 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] A Natural History of Mystara : Many Hidden Secrets Revealed >Incidentally, this theory also states that Mystara was the origin for most fantasy species in the other worlds, as well as their gods. Their gods are Immortals who gave up their home planet and decided to populate and control easier targets :) This is what I have always believed. Mystara is the "home planet" for all the other worlds. In my revised timeline, I have the following written: BC 3500: Humans and elves begin exploration of wildspace and the pholgiston in an attempt to find the origin of the "Beagle." Other races soon follow. BC 3000: The spacefaring races view the Great Rain of Fire from space and determine there are no survivors and believe Mystara to no longer be habitable. They leave the crystal sphere and never return - eventually forgetting all about their homeworld. >I would like to know what you think about this and if there are any parts that contradict with the canon. I think it's great what you have written...good job! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:07:06 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] A Natural History of Mystara : Many Hidden Secrets Revealed On Thu, 1 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >Very interesting ideas you are developing. I would say that it is a very Mystaracentric view (vis a vis the Multiverse), but that works well for a campaign. I wouldn;t say that it goes against Canon, as it works well within the Canonical information that we have available. I'd push the dates back into the millions of years rather than the hundreds of thousands though (by that's just the way I think). I'd also add something about the involvement of the Elemental Planes, as at least Terra originates from there. Maybe it was a tie to the Elemental Planes that caused the evolution of the magical species (Giants are be a perfect example of this kind of relationship). I think you need to flesh the story out some more, but I think it has a lot of potential. Of course, I already have my own Mystaran Genesis, but that is what works for me... :) I've used dates of hundreds of thousand years because I think magic should make things happen faster. But they can be really anything and I could be convinced otherwise. I agree it needs some extra flesh an I am accpeting suggestions. I haven't decided what exactly to do with the other planes, I believe the planes associated with the Spheres didn't exist in the beginning, they were created with the Spheres to act as a kind of fortress where Immortals could have their home planes and be safer than in the Prime. The Multiverse was much smaller then. But I do feel the Elemental Planes should be already there. I haven't thought about how to fit them in this cosmology. Finally, I forgot to mention that the old Immortals (and Khoronus, as well) have never allowed any mortal to venture back in time to the Carnifex Era or beyond. Very powerful barriers have been raised to stop anyone who try and there is a small and secret Council created to check Immortal interference with the barriers. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:53:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics >>I don't know for sure about anyone else though there are a few names that /could/ belong to a female, but then again, they /could/ belong to a male too. And those that regularily use pseudonyms (such as Cthuludrew (sp?)) could be either (though in Cthuludrew's case, I'm pretty sure he's a he and not a she ;-) ) Well, as my name can be both, just want everyone to know I am a guy despite the fact I liked Sleepless in Seattle ;) >Actually, I'm an asexual alien entity that's currently trapped in the middle of the Atlantic ocean... man, it's cold. Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:59:21 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #65 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 806619e10d1f97cca1b972eae7b55cde A burrower on Earth! Oh dear! Any exorcists on the list? >Seriously, though, whatever made you think I'm a he? You're right, of course, but I didn't think I came off as being that masculine. ;) Well, the name...I always thought it was Andrew or Drew IRL and you put the cthulhu part in front of that..just an assumption I made for the past 2 years or so :) >In any case, this demographic thread is interesting, methinks. There certainly is a wide variety of Mystara lovers out there. The more viewpoints, the better :) The Reagan and Bush administrations borrowed more money than all the previous US administrations combined. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:16:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Origins of Nithian Empire (LOOONG) [snipped all of the Nithian stuff for brevity's sake] Wow. I'm impressed. That's pretty well detailed and interesting stuff. One thing I noticed though, and maybe I just missed it, is that you don't mention Cynidicea (from B4- The Lost City) anywhere. I'm curious if you've worked the city of Cynidicea into your Nithian history anywhere.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:40:12 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Hollow World question I think I recall us mentioning this before, but... During the Week of No Magic, when the sun in the Hollow World went out, wouldn't the Burrowers have been freed from the Spell of Preservation? It is mentioned (more than once) that the sun powers the spell that keeps them frozen. Naturally, when it came back online as it were, they would freeze again, but a week would give them a lot of freedom to stir up trouble. I suppose the Immortals were busy keeping them in check? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:32:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Dimension of Nightmares With apologies to H.P.Lovecraft... The Dimension of Nightmares The Entities from the Void Between the Stars In long ages past, in the earliest days of life on Mystara, aeons before the rise of the Carnifex, a race of beings from the Void Between the Stars descended upon the newly risen continents of Mystara [ca. 500,000,000 BC]. It is believed by the ranks of the modern Immortals that this race was descended from the same entities that gave rise to the Draeden, that race which was ages old when the first stars of the Prime Plane were as yet unborn. Whatever the matter of their origins, it is known that the Entities had no relation to the energies of the Spheres of Life or Death, that instead they were made up of something else altogether. It has been conjectured that they were not even of this Dimension, but were from some unknown and perhaps unknowable Dimension on the furthest edge of Reality. When that race arrived on Mystara they found the planet populated only by the various species of early plant life, and the simplest forms of animal life, having neither intelligence nor cunning. Therefore they took up the remaining plasm of the primordial soup that still choked the seas of that day, and from that ooze they created their own races of Servitors, entities that were infused not only with the native energies the Multiverse, Life and Death, but also with the alien energies of their creators. These Servitor Races were made in forms that were neither Saurial, nor Mammal, nor Insect, nor even Plant, but again, like their creators, something else altogether. These Servitor Races built great cities and citadels for their masters, and from these cities and citadels the Entities from the Void Between the Stars began to explore the Multiverse, for Mystara was then even richer than it is today in Nodes, Wormholes and Gates connecting it with all corners of the Multiverse. The Entities began to colonize other star systems throughout the Prime Plane, as well as Outer Planes that were as yet unclaimed by the ranks of the Immortals of that long ago age. For untold eons they explored the Multiverse, from the uncounted galaxies of the Prime Plane to the edges of the most remote Outer Planes. Only when it was nearly too late did the Immortals, still young and new to their power, realize the dangers inherent in these alien Entities. For finally, when they were well established across the Prime Plane and throughout the Outer Planes, the Entities from the Void Between the Stars challenged the Immortals for dominion of the Multiverse. They turned many of the Immortals of the Sphere of Entropy to their side, promising them that their Sphere would reign supreme in the new order under the Entities. For the first ages of the struggle, the Entities and their allies from the Sphere of Entropy were able to dominate the field. The battle between the Entities and the Immortals lasted for untold ages. Entire galaxies were snuffed out of existence by the energies of that terrible conflict; stars were born, lived, and died in their time ere the conflict was brought to an end. During the course of the war, no small number of Immortals were destroyed utterly, along with their Home Planes, their names long forgotten before the dawn of Humans. The Draeden, perhaps cousins to the Entities, took no heed of the battle between the Immortals and the Entities, and kept their silent vigil in the vacuum of the Multiverse. The Immortals, after near annihilation, rallied, and put the Entities and their allies on the defensive. For the Entities had miscalculated. Being of alien matter and energy, they did not fully comprehend the relationship between the Immortals of the Spheres of Life and the energies of the Elemental Planes; their allies from the Sphere of Entropy, not fully familiar themselves with this relationship, gave them no warning. The Immortals, unlike the Entities and their allies, were able to call on the energies of not only the Prime Plane and the Outer Planes, but also the potent and unlimited energies of the Elemental Planes, and thus were they able to bring the forces of the Entities low. In time the Entities were defeated. Their cities razed, their citadels crumbled, their Servitors slaughtered, the remaining Entities from the Void Between the Stars and their allied Entropic Immortals were brought before the High Council of the Immortals. For ages, the Immortals had known that the energies required to destroy the Entities themselves could well drain the Multiverse of all Life and Entropy. Thus, they had had to come up with another solution, for the Entities would remain far too dangerous were they left within the confines of the Multiverse. Thus, it was decided that the Entities and their Entropic allies would be cast into another Dimension, for no Outer Plane, regardless of its nature, would hold them. The Immortals chose a Dimension that was in an indeterminate stage of existence; either it had as yet not fully taken form, or it was at the final end of its long existence. Either way, the Immortals used powerful magics to cast the Entities and their allied Immortals into the Prison Dimension, there to be sealed for all eternity [ca. 100,000,000 BC]. The Immortals then went about cleansing the Multiverse of the vestiges of the occupation of the Entities. What they could not destroy, the buried deep beneath the earth, in the depths of the seas, or far away in the hearts of dead stars, sealed with the most potent magics known in that day. The Immortals, though potent and wise, did not successfully eliminate all of the remains of the occupation of the Entities, and some shattered ruins of cities or citadels remained on the Prime Plane; or some blackened battlefield remained undiscovered in some distant uncharted Outer Plane; and in the nooks and crannies within the Void Between the Stars, in the space where the dust of long-dead stars drifts, and in the most distant of Outer Planes, remnants of the Servitor Races continued to survive, biding their time until the return of their masters to the Multiverse... The Rise and Fall of the Carnifex Long ages passed. Many of the Immortals of the days of the great war with the Entities passed on, and new Immortals took their place. The Great War of the Entities from the Void Between the Stars became a faded memory, the warnings of past generations of Immortals going unheeded. The Saurial species evolved on Mystara, and in time, intelligence arose from the primordial jungles. Ka, the first intelligent being naturally evolved on Mystara, attained Immortality in the Sphere of Matter under the tutelage of the Immortal Terra. Ka created his own race of intelligent beings, the Carnifex, and populated Mystara with them. For long ages they rose through the stages of civilization, growing great in knowledge and power, until they eventually grew powerful enough in magical knowledge to traverse the Planes, using the numerous Nodes, Wormholes and Gates native to Mystara. How, why or even when it is unknown, but at some point they came across the remains of the ancient cities, citadels and battlefields of the Entities from the Void Between the Stars. They also eventually encountered the remnants of the Servitor Races, and from them learned the means to gain greater knowledge and power. In secret, hidden from Immortal eyes, they began to chip away at the seals of the long-forgotten ruins that held the keys to the Gates to the Prison Dimension of the Entities from the Void Between the Stars. While they were not able to completely break the seals, they were able to weaken them, to such an extent that the Entities could communicate with their Servitor Races, as well as with the Carnifex [ca. 10,000,000 BC, the height of the Carnifex Tyranny]. Over the long ages the Entities and Entropic Immortals had recreated their lost realms in their Prison Dimension, warped versions of the reality of the Multiverse, for the energies of the newly forming Dimension had been usurped by the Entities. There they had created new Greater Servitors, in their own image, using their alien energies and the stuff of that Dimension, and they were able to send these Servitors through the holes between the Dimensions created by the Carnifex. With the assistance of these Servitors, who led the Servitor Races, the Carnifex rose to even greater heights of power. The Carnifex began creating their own servitor races, the Serpentines and the Troglodytes, among other less savory creatures. The Carnifex Tyranny grew across the length and breadth of the Prime Plane, and into the Outer Planes, in horrible mockery of the rise of the ancient Empire of the Entities. A few Immortals noticed the similarities, but protected by the magics granted them by the Entities, the Immortals were unable to detect the interference of the Entities, or the presence of the Servitors, and the Immortal investigations came to naught. In time, the Carnifex grew to such levels of power that they decided to challenge the Immortals, as had the Entities from the Void Between the Stars in long ages past (this challenge came at the behest of the Entities, for it was only through the power granted by Immortality that the bonds holding the Entities in their Prison Dimension could be broken). The Carnifex, however, were not nearly as powerful as they had believed, and the war with the Immortals was quickly over, in comparison to the war between the Entities and the Immortals. The Carnifex were conquered and cast into their Prison Plane. The Greater Servitors and their Servitor Races were imprisoned, beneath the earth, under the seas, or in distant Outer Planes, though again, some slipped through the fingers of the Immortals to hide away in the darkest voids of the Multiverse. The Immortals, now free of the foul magics cast by the Carnifex, realized that the bonds holding the Entities in their Prison Dimension had been weakened. This was, however, mostly a new generation of Immortals, and none in that day had the power or ability to strengthen or reforge the bonds. Thus, they were forced to think of another way to interpose between the Entities and the Multiverse. What they were able to do was place a Proto-Dimension between the Prison Dimension of the Entities and the Multiverse Dimension [Proto-Dimensions are effectively singular Planes that are outside the confines of any one Dimension; i.e., a "Single Plane Dimension"; the shell of a Dimension that had not lived up to its potential]. The Entities in the Prison Dimension were no longer able to communicate directly with beings in the Multiverse. Unfortunately, however, the characteristics of the Proto-Dimension combined with the magics of the seals of the Prison Dimension to create an unusual side effect. This side effect was that the Proto-Dimension acted as a receiver and transceiver for the dreams of intelligent beings in the Multiverse... and the Entities of the Prison Dimension were able to receive these dreams, and send new ones out to be dreamt by unsuspecting beings of the Multiverse. Thus, the Entities in the Prison Dimension were able to communicate with beings in the Multiverse, but only in their dreams. Because of the nature of the dreams sent by the Entities, the Proto-Dimension became known as the Dimension of Nightmares (sometimes known as the Demiplane of Nightmares). This unforeseen side effect kept the Immortals of the Sphere of Thought busy for many long centuries, as they buttressed the dreams of mortal beings with their positive Life energies, in order that the Nightmares created by the Entities would not drive the mortals of the Multiverse insane. Entities of the Dimension of Nightmares While the Entities from the Void Between the Stars and their Entropic Allies were still incarcerated in the Prison Dimension, the seals on that Dimension were still weak, and they could cast their thoughts and some fragments of their energies into the Dimension of Nightmares. Thus, the Dimension of Nightmares began to take on a form not unlike that of the Prison Dimension. New Servitor Races of the Entities were created in the Dimension of Nightmares from the alien energies the Entities cast through the holes between the Dimensions. Beings like the Neh-thalggu (Brain Collectors), the Vuhl'Phnath (the Great Burrowers of the Hollow World), the Ostegos (Death Fiends), the Diaboli (Man Fiends) and the Ul'ghakh (Nightmare Ghouls) originated in this manner, while many more originated as the nightmares of mortal beings from the Multiverse Dimensions, brought to horrid life by the whims of the Entities from the Void Between the Stars. Most of the beings of the Dimension of Nightmares are unable to leave without being summoned. Unfortunately, some mortals, potent in magical power, are able to bring these beings across Dimensional space to the Multiverse; some can even travel to the Dimension of Nightmares. And of course, the original Servitor Races, led by the Greater Servitor beings released during the Carnifex Tyranny, continue to try to bring the return of their masters into reality. To this end, they ally themselves with the powerful Wizards and Priests contacted by the Entities. Many of these beings lead horrible, unspeakable cults on the Prime Plane, cults that revere the Entities and their Greater Servitors, assisted by the Servitor Races, beings from the Dimension of Nightmares and the Old Races, the Serpentines, Troglodytes and other horrid beings. No one, of course, has the power to release any of the Entities from their Prison Dimension... yet. But many keep trying, as they believe, through their mad dreams, that the Entities will give them powers beyond the dreams of the Immortals... Enjoy... If you dare... Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #65 **************************** Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:05:01 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #66 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Status: RO mystara-digest Friday, May 2 1997 Volume 02 : Number 066 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:47:50 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Lotsa Stuff A few points I need to address... 1) The address this message comes from (malacoda@lesbois.com)is now my primary address. So, if you have need to contact me, please send your letter here. It is highly preferred over my io.com address, and especially over my old school address (since I am no longer in school, and only check mail at that address on rare occasions). 2) Before we move onto the big topic (#3), I just want to let people know a few things on my list reading habits. I am currently subscribed to over a dozen mailing lists (all but one RPG's), and recieve 350-400 letters a day, and sometimes more. So, I tend to pick and choose what I read. For the record, when the list is busy, I don't always read every letter. Like any other Mystara fan, there are going to be some subjects I am less interested in that others. And I don't consider myself the MML "cop". I try to watch for threads that look like they have the possiblity of leading to trouble. So, there will be times when problems arise and I am not aware of them. If you feel a particualr thread is a problem, please let me know, and I will check things out. 3) Now, it seems that one of the threads has lead to some comments that have the ring of racism and jingoism (gotta love those 'isms). I am not going to name names, or point fingers at the moment, but I am going to do my best to make this clear: anyone who continues with these kinds of comments, that spews forth racial bullshit[1], will be summarily removed and banned from the list. This is a warning to all, although I know it applies to very few. Thanks to those who clued me in on things. 4) When I started this list I was in school, and after they booted me, unemployed, so had plenty of free time to work on the list and the page. My plan was to keep a copy of everything new and intersting posted to the list, keeping ti on the MML web page. Well, I have been working on the web page, with what little spare time I have any more, and am finding I am wayyyyy behind on that part. So, I am giving it up. What I would like to find is someone with the web space and the inclination to do the same, to take what files I have and to keep current with whatever else is posted to the list. Any volunteers? Note that this does not signal the end of the MML web page. I am currently working on it (inlcuding updating the registry). I would like to eventually have links to every known Mystara site out there, a sort of Mystara hub, giving people access to virtually everything out there for the setting. [1] When was the last time anyone saw me curse in an admin post? That should be a sign of how serious I am on this. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:07:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thyatian Varangian Guard In a message dated 97-05-01 20:52:44 EDT, Mystaros@aol.com writes: << Ahh, the Varangian Guard! Has anyone developed a similar institution for the Empire of Thyatis? >> If no such group existed from the beginning, Thincol would certainly have created it -- after all, he originally came from Norwold, IIRC. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:12:24 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) In a message dated 97-05-01 08:53:40 EDT, you write: << Let me explain a thing that probably it's not well know on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean (well, at least before these Byzantium thread started): there's a strong rivalry (maybe "hatred" is a better word) between Greeks and Turks. >> Thanks, Fabrizio. I'm poor at history, and I get riled when people start getting bigoted . . . but being American it's easy for me to forget things are a bit different over on the continent! :) Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:27:36 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World question In a message dated 97-05-01 21:35:43 EDT, you write: << During the Week of No Magic, when the sun in the Hollow World went out, wouldn't the Burrowers have been freed from the Spell of Preservation? It is mentioned (more than once) that the sun powers the spell that keeps them frozen. >> Ohmigod! (er, "ohmiimmortals"?) I never thought of that! If I remember correctly, the Week of No Magic dispelled ALL MAGIC, including Immortal-level spells! If so, then yes! Bye-bye Spell of Preservation, heeelllllooo Burrowers! The Spell of Oblivion would have been temporarily dispelled too, but I don't see the effects of this being all that great. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:18:26 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cthulhu and the Dimension of Nightmares If you're developing the Nightmare Dimension (or demiplane, whatever), you should check out the Player's Option adventure, "Gates of Firestorm Peak". It is a well-written adventure, IMHO, and deals with an alienist wizard (one who gains his powers from Lovecraftian entities) trying to break down the barriers between the campaign world and the "Far Realm" (analogous to the Nightmare Dimension). It is not set in Mystara, in fact it is a "generic" adventure. But I feel it would be easily adapted to our favorite world. BTW, while on the subject, check out the Player's Option: Spells & Magic book for details on the alienist wizard class. Perhaps the Dream Wizards of Glantri are in fact alienists, fighting insanity as they gain more powers from their twisted mentors! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:07:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Origins of Nithian Empire (LOOONG) In a message dated 97-05-01 20:32:41 EDT, you write: << Wow. I'm impressed. That's pretty well detailed and interesting stuff. One thing I noticed though, and maybe I just missed it, is that you don't mention Cynidicea (from B4- The Lost City) anywhere. I'm curious if you've worked the city of Cynidicea into your Nithian history anywhere.... Yep, Cynidicea came AFTER the fall of the Nithian Empire; it was one of the barbaric kingdoms founded by the slave population of the Empire, mostly Milenians and Traladarans, with a number of Thyatians thrown in for good measure (the Alasiyani forebears fled into the wastes following the fall of the Empire; the other races founded their own petty city states). Cynidicea was actually founded in the last hundred years of the Empire as a haven for escaped slaves; it's heyday was circa 500 BC through 200 BC or so, when the city above the ground was destroyed by raiding Alasiyani nomads. Alexander, the last king of Cynidicea, ruled an area from modern Biazzan through to Selenica in modern Darokin. Zargon, the being found under the Pyramid of King Alexander, was actually the Dream-Construct of a sleeping Burrower... but I'll post more details eventually, when I put together the full history of Nithia and the days after the Empire... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:29:00 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: [Mystara] X11: Wendar/Denagoth: From Steve Miller This particular module became one of my favorites years ago. Still is, but then I haven't bought any Mystara products (save for that last PWA) since they changed it over to AD&D. Not that it survived for long after that. Anyway. A long while back, in December 1995, I sent some email about Gylharen to Steve Miller. Turned out he'd run a campaign set in Wendar/Denagoth for two years. So I tracked down his current email and asked if I could forward some of the info in his email to the list, and received permission and some additional info: Steve Miller, Dec'95: >As far as X11 goes, here's my take on it, based on my personal campaign [which for two years was set in Denagoth and Wendar, exclusively]. >Gylharen is the rarest of D&D breeds... a half-elf. This way all the sources jive (and that's what would have been the case if the Wendar gazeteer had ever been published, at least if the plan to have me write it had held true.) Steve Miller, Apr'97: >My campaign took place in Wendar and Denagoth for two years... then it moved on to regions north of Sind, and ultimately to Great Hule. (In my personal campaign Idriss was actually a Hulean godess, and Denagoth had been founded by a bunch of folks who fled from Hosadus as he rose to power.) Further details about the Church of Idriss was that their priests always traveled in pairs, one was always a wizard and the other was always a priest. The leader of the faith was the Witch Queen, the Shadowlord actually being her cheif warlord, and she was able to cast a mixture of cleric and wizard spells. [A big deal in the D&D game, where "multiclass" characters of any stripe are virtually non-existant]. >The plans TSR had for a Wendar product (and for a Hule product, too, at one time) were *very* tentative, and very short-lived. The Wendar release never even made it onto a schedule, while the Hule product didn't survive even as long as the possibility of an ongoing AD&D "Savage Coast" line. It's a bummer for me, really. One of the things I really wanted to do while I was at TSR was contribute to the Known World/Mystara. It was the setting I first DMed in, D&D was one of the first RPGs I played, and both have a special place in my heart. >Some folks rant about Greyhawk. I can rattle on about the Known World for hours. :) I'll be sending Steve the info on mystara-l in case he wants to join; then again he might want to avoid the addiction. :) Shane (sleep@tpgi.com.au) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:40:00 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) Fabrizio (?) wrote: >well, I know next to nothing about Central or South America, but here in the States we don't really have any "rival" nations, at least not like you're referring to. As far as I know, we don't hate anybody simply because their from a certain country. Sure, we didn't like Russia for a while, but we didn't hate the Russian people, just their government. Hmm. Well... being Scottish, I feel I should point out that you are right. Over here, particularly in Orkney, I'm afraid there is a general perception of animosity towards the English. It's the typical prejudice - - all ... are stupid/nasty/I don't like them except for the ones I know. Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not. The reason it endures is that unfortunately often the most vocal and noticable people are the annoying and arrogant ones. Anyway the reason for this in Orkney is that there are a lot of English people who come up from south and then "try to tell us how to do things", to quote someone from back home. Of course there is also the universal truth that people from Kirkwall are better than people from Stromness... in fact someone is renowned for referring to Stromness as "a graveyard with streetlights". Of course, the opposite is thought by people from Stromness. However, this does not cause violence or stop people from mixing or marrying, etc. - it is as you say a "rivalry". Anyway, there's no way of excusing it since it is after all racism. Unfortunately it is very hard to escape such ideas when they are built into you from childhood. (Though it helps to actually MEET some of the people you are prejudiced against so you start to understand that it is not always the case...) On Thu, 1 May 1997 Aron Reif wrote: II don't want to sound like some kind of "holier-than-thou" moron ("we're so much better because we love everybody"), I just don't think we've been around as a country for long enough to build up such intense nationalism. Oh come on, your exports of entertainment reek of nationalism! As usual, it is the nasty bits that somehow get shown most often and are most memorable, but you are ignoring certain events which have been forced in our faces through international media numerous times. The best example is the so-called "American dream", which, though you may not view it as nationalism, is basically percieved as such here in Britain (and as such is laughed at cynically). >For example, we were at war with Japan just 50 years ago, but now they're our best friends. We're buddies with Russia now too, and the Cold War ended only 5 or 6 years ago. Maybe the general American population just doesn't care about world politics. There certainly is evidence for this: most Americans probably don't ever leave the US. I'm guessing that most of you (since most of you are from Europe) have probably visited a dozen countries by now. I only left the US for the first time a few months ago, and I'm 23. If it wasn't for that short trip to the Bahamas, I might not have left until I was in my 40s. The US is such a big and diverse country that we can travel for many years and never leave it (not that it's all good, there's just alot to see). Another example: most Americans know only one language. I'm betting that most of you know at least a few. I've only been to France, Luxembourg, Germany and of course Scotland and England, but it is slightly different living on a small island-group within another island-group. Makes travel a WHOLE lot more expensive. I only know one language. (Though I do know a fair bit of French and Latin.) Anyway, if you think about it you will definitely find you are just as nationalistic as the rest of us... at least as a country. (I'm not personally nationalistic, or at least not comparatively to most other British people.) Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:46:17 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Thu, 1 May 1997 Mischa E Gelman wrote: SSSeriously, though, whatever made you think I'm a he? You're right, of course, but I didn't think I came off as being that masculine. ;) >Well, the name...I always thought it was Andrew or Drew IRL and you put the cthulhu part in front of that..just an assumption I made for the past 2 years or so :) Same here. Drew is a nickname for Andrew here in Scotland. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:23:56 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: HHere we are arguing whether what humanoid creatures can interbreed with other races. It's silly really. In fantasy, you can have whatever you want. If you want an orc/elf crossbreed . . . do it! Now this is what I agree with! As long as it satisfies your campaign, just go for it! For example, I am starting a new campaign and my brother suddenly came up with the idea that one of his ancestors was a Gold Dragon. Not for extra abilities (though I did decide to make his natural AC better) but just to make things interesting and to make him special. He left it at that and said I could develop whatever I want and then his character can find out as we go along about his true heritage. Thus, I decided his great, great grandfather was a dragon. He mated while polymorphed with a human female (his wife, incidentally), and through his magic he succeeded in making them compatible. Thus, she gave birth to a son. He married and had a son of his own. That son, Ilya, the PC's grandfather, married and had two sons. One of these, the PC's father, had three sons (including the PC). Now, you may notice something weird here... no daughters. Well, I decided that all daughters were stillborn, and thus a family secret. So the PC does not yet know this. Anyhow, the dragon ancestry is continued through the male line, and they are all forced to marry outside the family. This is a Traladaran family, but their skin is more gold/bronze-hued than a normal Traladaran family, and they tend to have golden (brown) hair. I am considering somehow allowing the PC's ancestral abilities to emerge sooner or later, possibly through magic, or maybe just naturally. Anyway, the point is I have a cool concept which will be great for role- playing. The PC will go all over the place tracking down the rest of his family, and when he gets to a higher level (and the power doesn't matter so much) I may allow him some very limited access to his heritage. What do you all think? Any ideas for progressions from this or a good and balanced way to introduce elements of his draconic heritage? Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:38:54 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] The RL-Mystaran Villain again That's an excerpt ffom an e-amil convo with Steve Miller, guru of Ravenloft and (surprise! Surprise!) Mystara fan, player and DM. hope it'll be interesting for you: it's about the mystaran villain put into Ravenloft >>>why you decided to take Meredoth as the Mystaran guy? Or bbetter, why to put into RL any Mystaran guy for that matter? << >I'm going completely from memory here -- my RL and D&D/Mystara stuff is boxed away in a storage area as I prepare to relocate to Pennsylvania for a job editing the "Star Wars Journal" for West End Games -- but here's the answer/rational. >Meredoth was one of the most powerful, creepiest wizards in the RL setting that didn't have much of a background. I wanted to have Mystara represented in RL, since it's become an AD&D setting and I very much would like to see it still alive in a small way, even if it involves ret-conning. Plus, I didn't want to take anything from my favourite campaign setting -- the Known World -- so I picked the unused RL dark lord. (Meredoth appeared in an out-of-print adventure, after all.) >As for the the residents of the domain not resembling any Mystaran peoples... well, you do have a point there. However, the island to which Meredoth's actual activities are confined has no inhabitants other than the dark lord himself. It is also not uncommon for dark lords to find themselves in domains that have little to do with the world from which they originated. Vlad Drakov is an example of this. As is Azalin. Domains aren't always taken from any prime material locations... sometimes they are created whole cloth from the Mists. If memory serves, only Meredoth's island (Todstein, i think was its name) was snatched from Mystara... and I believe that I said it existed>somewhere far to the north along the coast of Norwold. >Heck, his island might also have existed in a late in Denagoth, now that I'm thinking about it. And, IMO, if one goes back to the original X11 module, one gets the feeling that the Denagothians are far more advanced culturally than what Ann Dupuis and Bruce Heard said years later in the "Poor Wizard's Almanac." (My personal D&D/Known World campaign took place on the Denagothian high plataue, Norwold, areas north of Sind and Hule, and the Great Hule. It annoyed me greatly to see the Denagothians reduced in status.) >As for the Posidion reference... I may be misremembering here, but wasn't one of Protius's names given as Posidon? (To be completely honest, I don't recall seeing the reference when I was re-reading "Ship of Horrors" in the course of working on "Domains of Dread," so I didn't take it into account while revising Meredoth.) Wasn't Posidon mentioned either in the "Hollow World" boxed set, or in the old "Immortals" gold box? >BTW, feel free to repost this message on the "Mystara" mailing list. (I don't subscribe, so I won't be able to respond to comments, but if you think it'll be germain to the conversation, I'm happy to contribute.) >Steve Miller DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:43:15 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Leroy's new address At 17.47 01/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >A few points I need to address... >1) The address this message comes from (malacoda@lesbois.com)is now my primary address. What the heck...?? Your address is badtail@thewood.com?? Have u chosen it deliberately or what? *joking* >I would >like to eventually have links to every known Mystara site out there, a sort of Mystara hub, giving people access to virtually everything out there for the setting. I'll tellya mine ASA i manage to understand how to send my .html file to Goecities... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:03:56 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Arica & Carnifex (long) At 09.51 30/04/97 -0700, you wrote: >Oops! You're right...sorry. I'm still learning about the Carnifex so I still make some assumptions that don't fit. I had to dig through all my boxes to find an old copy of M3 Twilight Calling...you know, I don't think I ever actually read it completely through. Ack! Get out the flail and start beating me... :( >Steve Now i see why u couldn't possibly know much about the Carnifex... do you prefere normal or magical flail? :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:09:39 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] When Game meets Reality (and Fiction) At 16.34 30/04/97 +0600, you wrote: >At 12:00 PM 4/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Also: >>Per Kirvik (3:6) >>Fox Mulder (3:6) >>Hmmm.... >I think you have too much time on your hands...either that, or you believe there are as many conspiracies as Mulder does... >Aron Reif >areif@vt.edu Eh eh... you know, i even introduced Deep Throat in my Mystara games... During the WotI years, i designed a twisted side-masterplan involving Drachenfels, Herr Doktor and genetic experiments, and my PCs were thrown into it and aided by this mysterious man in red... who turned out to be none other than Rheddrian!!! I really enjoyed that adventure: so far, it's the best one i invented (according to my players), cause it also featured a big evil POWERFUL villain, sort of Dark Schneider type (for those who read manga and "Bastard!", they know the guy) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:14:58 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian Pantheon At 00.06 01/05/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: >Immortals of Ancient Nithia >Nithian Name Common Name AL Areas of Concern Anhur Ilsundal LG War, General of Horon ILSUNDAL????????????????????????? HE helped the Immortals destroy the Nithians using the Alfheim elves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can this be!????????? >Seshat Diamond LN Writing, Wife of Thoth I thought Ssu-ma would have been more appropriate... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:00:55 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex At 11.25 30/04/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: >Well, I felt that "Challenging the Immortals" was a lot more romantic than "They built a weapon and it fizzled, so the Immortals banished them anyway". I tend to mythologize the parts of Mystaran history that I feel are otherwise... well.. wimpy. Good, i do the same, usually. But i don't view the Carnifex trial as "they built a weapon etc." I do see it rather this way: they built something, a strange magical powerful device, with which they could attain immortality on the spot or destroy themselves... Obviously the machine was not that well designed and they blew themselves up...nearly. So the Immortals, who didn't like the way they were developing (they were threatening their world after all), rounded up the remaining Carnifex and sent them in the Pits of Banishment, in order to avoid other problems. Also, this event probably caused a great upheval or glaciation that caused the near extiction of the greater saurial species (dinos) and prompted Ka to intervene and put them in the HW (already discovered) ><<(though it also revealed the Hollow World to Ka, which he and other Immortals promptly put to use saving thousands of Saurial species, which were becoming exting). That was ca. 5,000,000 BC; > IMHO it is too far away in time. Remember that we are talking here about Mystara, where Immortals play with the species as toys,>> >the Carnifex >ruled during the height of the Age of the Dinosaurs. There wouldn't be enought time, really, for all the Mammals to evolve "Naturally" or "Unnaturally" for the Empire of Thonia to be in place in 5000 BC... i was basing my assumption on the fact that the Blackmoorians developed their futuristic culture in only 2000 years, and they didn't wield magic. So why cannot the Carnifex have evolved from dumb carnosaurs with the magical help of Ka into their modern race in only 2000 years too? Remember they were master magic users and this could count for their rapid evolution... i think they must not be located to far in time cause we must remain in the order of thousand years, not million, in order not to overcomplicate too many things, too... >Don't think the dragons evolved from dinos: rather i agree with Haavard Faanes (sorry for the sp) when he says that they came from the outer planes, and maybe they were the ancestors of our dinos>> >I think I mentioned somewhere in theat post that the Chromatic Dragons and the Metallic Dragons (as well as the Gem Dragons, BTW) evolved ELSEWHERE in the Prime Plane (in my history), and arrived on Mystara in 5500 BC from ELSWHERE. I don't think they would be from the Outer Planes, personally, since if they were, we would see whole legions of Fiends and other Outer Planar entities given full reign across the Prime Plane. Not necessarily... Also, why do you think that Fiends cannot cross the planar boundaries? The lesser ones cannot, sure, but the greater ones... think about Demogorgon or Orcus: they are ruler of fiends, and can cross planes, but choose not to invade Mystara for their own reasons and in order not to have to fight against all the Immortals (remember the 1st Immortal rule, or the Prime Directive)... the fiends do not invade cause they too fear the Immortals, that's all... but the dragons could have come from Outer Planes in peace. >The Mystaran Dragons >I mentioned that eveolveed from the Saurials are a whole different breed of Dragon, and include the multiheaded Elder Dragon (and it's nonintelliegent cousin, the Hydra), the Linnorms of the Northern Reaches, and other, less well known breeds... oh, i see now... Are u using OD&D or AD&D? DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:17:57 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] demographyses and such... In a message dated 97-05-01 00:43:58 EDT, Peter writes: << Is there any way you can release a sanitized version of it? >> Not sure if I can. ...as a matter of fact, I pretty sure I can't. I'll check. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:17:59 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics In a message dated 97-05-01 02:59:01 EDT, Ryan writes: <<... to play AD$D you need at least 3 books and no player can build a castle, or have an army... >> Now, now... Everyone gets to play with their favorite toys! No reason to resort to the offending $-thing. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:22:04 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? I wonder who plays nowadays with the OD&D system unmodified (that's to say, using only the basic rules given in the old blue-red-black etc boxes) and who uses Rules Cyclopaedia. Personally i use OD&D modified by the General Skills introducted with Gazetteers and other personal rules, so i don't really qualify as an OD&D player. Who does here? Who uses the old 1 face sheet given in the Basic Set?? Just my ramblings today... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 03:36:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex On Fri, 2 May 1997, DM wrote: >At 11.25 30/04/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: >>the Carnifex >>ruled during the height of the Age of the Dinosaurs. There wouldn't be enought time, really, for all the Mammals to evolve "Naturally" or "Unnaturally" for the Empire of Thonia to be in place in 5000 BC... >i was basing my assumption on the fact that the Blackmoorians developed their futuristic culture in only 2000 years, and they didn't wield magic. Whoa! The Blackmoorians _didn't_ wield magic??? Blackmoor is a nation built around magic. The name "Blackmoor" derives from the rich black loam of the nation, which seems to have inherently strong magical properties. Blackmoorians most definitely wielded magic, as did most of Mystara at the time- the Egg of Coot was a sorceror; the Afridhi had a clerical matriarchy; the Wizard's Cabal (I think that's it's name) was a major underground force in Blackmoor. As for developing their culture (which, IMO, wasn't nearly as 'futuristic' as it has sometimes been implied to be in the past), it was due to outside interference- namely, the crash landing of an alien spaceship with advanced technology. Technology which was subsequently confiscated and utilized (and often utilized poorly) by the people of the Blackmoor region. >So why cannot the Carnifex have evolved from dumb carnosaurs with the magical help of Ka into their modern race in only 2000 years too? Remember they were master magic users and this could count for their rapid evolution... i think they must not be located to far in time cause we must remain in the order of thousand years, not million, in order not to overcomplicate too many things, too... They could, I suppose, though I agree with Mystaros (I'm paraphrasing, and maybe badly, here), when he says that the Immortals don't or shouldn't interfere that much with the natural progression of things on the Prime Plane, for fear of throwing off the balance there. As for their magic-use being the cause of their evolution, how so? If you say that magic-use requires intelligence, then they must first have evolved to a suitable level of intellect and sophistication before they could manipulate magic; a process that would require a long time. If you say that their abilities to manipulate magic are innate/instinctual, then IMO, they have no reason to evolve a higher level of consciousness; they are already perfectly adapted as predators, and are at the top of their food chain. Basically, I'm just asking for a clarification of your argument on how their magic use affected their evolution. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:38:54 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >Well, at least it didn't mean *goat droppings*, didn't it! ;-) So which village DOES mean "goat droppings". You still haven't answered that. Or don't you still want to reveal it? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 07:50:39 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? My campaign was ended by baby-sitter problems about a year ago. At that time, I was playing OD&D with no Skills. My goal was always to minimize game mechanics and focus on getting the players into what was going on in the story. The campaign ran for six years. >I wonder who plays nowadays with the OD&D system unmodified (that's to say, using only the basic rules given in the old blue-red-black etc boxes) and who uses Rules Cyclopaedia. Personally i use OD&D modified by the General Skills introducted with Gazetteers and other personal rules, so i don't really qualify as an OD&D player. Who does here? Who uses the old 1 face sheet given in the Basic Set?? >Just my ramblings today... >DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 08:40:12 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] X11: Wendar/Denagoth: From Steve Miller >Steve Miller, Dec'95: >>Gylharen is the rarest of D&D breeds... a half-elf. This way all the Hmmm.... Gylharen a half-elf? More evidence to support my pet hypothesis that X11/X13 were originally written for AD&D rules. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:38:07 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thyatian Varangian Guard On Thu, 1 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: ><< The Byzantine empire used many scandinavians (esp. Norwegian ans Swedes IIIRC) in their armies, often as Higher ranking officers. Now thats barbaric too, right? :) >Ahh, the Varangian Guard! Has anyone developed a similar institution for the Empire of Thyatis? I haven't, but now that you mention it, there could be such a military unit. After all, Thincol is from Oceansend, and Thyatis has nice relations with Ostland, too. Maybe some kind of a palace guard for Thincol consisting of his countrymen from Oceansend (he probably trusts them more!). Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:16:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian Pantheon In a message dated 97-05-02 06:22:26 EDT, you write: <> 1) Nithia had already begun her Civil War by the time of the founding of Alfheim; Ilsundal/Anhur had already fallen to the wayside in favor of Entropic Immortals (he was much more popular during the Early Kingdoms and Early Imperial Periods). Ilsundal had Mealiden colonize the area to have a force there as necessary; of course, the foundation of the Canolbarth was part and parcel of the punishment that Ilsundal and other Immortals dealt to the Nithians for their turning to Entropy (they were given numerous warnings before the Immortals were to intervene; this became unnecessary, as the Nithians finished themselves off). Remember, the majority of the Nithian Immortals had abandoned Nithia to its fate after the Empire turned to the forcesof Entropy... 2) Yes, Ssu-Ma would be a more logical choice, but his parochial nature wouldn't allow him to play the part of a "Wife" to anyone, hile Diamond doesn't really worry about what sex of avatar he creates: after all, he isn't even Human in origin (neither was Thoth for that matter). Besides, Ssu-Ma hadn't really come into the picture as yet, as he was concnetrating on the Proto-Ochalean Empire in Auld Alphatia (the Alphatian equivalent of the RW Orient), from which he had originated (he was their "Cunfucious"). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:19:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? I use whatever game system my players want to use... I've even run Mystara using GURPS before. I peronally prefer to use the Rules Cyclopedia version of D&D, but that's not terribly popular here, I'm afraid... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:27:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex In a message dated 97-05-02 06:55:52 EDT, you write: << Blackmoor is a nation built around magic. The name "Blackmoor" derives from the rich black loam of the nation, which seems to have inherently strong magical properties. Blackmoorians most definitely wielded magic, as did most of Mystara at the time- the Egg of Coot was a sorceror; the Afridhi had a clerical matriarchy; the Wizard's Cabal (I think that's it's name) was a major underground force in Blackmoor. As for developing their culture (which, IMO, wasn't nearly as 'futuristic' as it has sometimes been implied to be in the past), it was due to outside interference- namely, the crash landing of an alien spaceship with advanced technology. Technology which was subsequently confiscated and utilized (and often utilized poorly) by the people of the Blackmoor region. >> Well, in my own campaign (IMOC?) I developed Blackmoor as reaching the technological equivalent of... well... sort of like Classic Star Trek mixed with Metropolis (the old silent movie). Big, bulky style technology... or actually, Technomancy, Technology+Magic. A thousand years passed between the time of the crash of the Beagle (4000 BC, IMO, the Blackmoorian equivalent of around 13th century of the RW) and the GRoF (3000 BC). Now that would place, according to my own development of Mystaras history, the Blackmoor of the time of the GRoF somewhere around the equivalent of the 23rd century in the RW, which, as that hasn't happened yet, I used a combination of ST, GW and T:2300 as a gague. Thus, there were Blackmoorian colonies within a 50 LY distance from Mystara, they had FTL drives (not quite warp, but similar), etc. But it was all Technomancy, not pure technology. I'll post something about the Age of Blackmoor later... of course, it isn't Canon, but I think it fits in pretty darn well.. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:40:07 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: [Mystara] Re: Immortal dragons On Fri, 2 May 1997, stan wrote: >Hello Starhawk >>Excuse me. When I sent these to the list I meant for people to use them. I didn't mind so much when people started adding them to their web pages. I started getting anooyed when people stopped putting my name on them. Now people are starting to post them as if they were their own ideas, I >hmmm yeah I though I had a sense of Deja Vu >>don't care if you use them, I don't care if you post them, mail them, put them on their web page, etc. just give credit to the person that wrote them (me). >Oh so you are Bruce Pierpont then? Yep, you caught me. I switched addresses a while back. >I don't know if you visited my homepage and I wasn't going to bring this up but I thought that I would in light of your justifiable concern. >On my page I have lumped together a lot of information on the immortals including your information. Rather than referencing directly I have put a blanket reference at the top of the page indicating who has contributed information in general. If this is a problem, please let me know. >Also since I am writing to you and I also just happened to get another person writing the query to me. Are you going to finish off the list of immortals that you started? I had intended to, but then I got kind of busy. I can make time to finish them though if people are interested, I expect to be much less busy shortly. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #66 **************************** Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:44:06 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #67 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, May 3 1997 Volume 02 : Number 067 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 12:23:29 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) At 07:40 AM 5/2/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 1 May 1997 Aron Reif wrote: III don't want to sound like some kind of "holier-than-thou" moron ("we're so much better because we love everybody"), I just don't think we've been around as a country for long enough to build up such intense nationalism. >Oh come on, your exports of entertainment reek of nationalism! As usual, it is the nasty bits that somehow get shown most often and are most memorable, but you are ignoring certain events which have been forced in our faces through international media numerous times. heh, heh...please don't believe that what is put out as "entertainment" is actually what Americans are like. Since I don't know which of our crap (that stuff you call "entertainment") gets put out overseas, I can't really comment on it much. Just know that anything that you see from America has to be taken with a grain of salt. Lots of the stuff from Television or Film is usually exaggerated (the police are not like "Die Hard", the women don't look like the ones from "Baywatch", etc.). Nobody really believes that a couple of stupid Americans with an Apple Powerbook are going to save the world from an alien invasion. Now that I think about it, if all non-Americans see of us is our Film/TV productions, I'm suprised we're taken seriously by anybody. >The best example is the so-called "American dream", which, though you may not view it as nationalism, is basically percieved as such here in Britain (and as such is laughed at cynically). The idea of success in life through hard work is laughed at in Brittian?? I'm not really sure how that is considered nationalism either... >>only 5 or 6 years ago. Maybe the general American population just doesn't care about world politics. There certainly is evidence for this: most Americans probably don't ever leave the US. I'm guessing that most of you (since most of you are from Europe) have probably visited a dozen countries by now. I only left the US for the first time a few months ago, and I'm 23. If it wasn't for that short trip to the Bahamas, I might not have left until I was in my 40s. The US is such a big and diverse country that we can travel for many years and never leave it (not that it's all good, there's just alot to see). Another example: most Americans know only one language. I'm betting that most of you know at least a few. >I've only been to France, Luxembourg, Germany and of course Scotland and England, but it is slightly different living on a small island-group within another island-group. Makes travel a WHOLE lot more expensive. I only know one language. (Though I do know a fair bit of French and Latin.) See, there's my point. You've probably travelled/interacted with more cultures than 90% of Americans have. I'm guessing that it was a positive experience for you, and I think that more Americans should do it as well. I plan to visit Europe sometime in the next few years... >Anyway, if you think about it you will definitely find you are just as nationalistic as the rest of us... at least as a country. (I'm not personally nationalistic, or at least not comparatively to most other British people.) I disagree. I would say that we probably have the same level of patriotism, but I don't feel very nationalistic. I would go to war to fight for my country (as most people probably would), but I don't hate Iraqis or Russians or Cubans simply because they are from that country. Fifty years ago, I would agree with you. I've talked to some old people, and do they ever hate the Japanese, even to this day. I guess now they don't really HATE them, just don't particularly like them. That's about as strong nationalism as I've seen here. Don't get me wrong, there is still plenty of racism here, particularly in the southern US. We as a country are working to minimize that, though. Hopefully in the next generation or two, we'll finally get that out of our system as well. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 11:12:08 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? At 12:22 PM 5/2/97 +0200, DM wrote: II wonder who plays nowadays with the OD&D system unmodified (that's to say, using only the basic rules given in the old blue-red-black etc boxes) and who uses Rules Cyclopaedia. Personally i use OD&D modified by the General Skills introducted with Gazetteers and other personal rules, so i don't really qualify as an OD&D player. Who does here? Who uses the old 1 face sheet given in the Basic Set?? Two of the campaigns I'm involved with (the One I DM and the one I play a Minrothaddan MU in) use the Cyclopedia rules, plus we add all the neat quirks of applicable Gazetters and even add a few "house rules" gleaned from a number of sources (for example, we use the Comliness Stat, which was from Unearthed Arcana, 1st Ed(?I think) AD&D) I don't think I know of /one/ gaming group I've ever played with that didn't actually play a game that is truly of their own design (except maybe when I was nine, and we 'played by the rules' exactly). Here's a question I'd like to ask: How do others on this list deal with "Death". IMC I give each player 'negative' hit points equal in value to their Constitution. Then, whenever a PC gets hit to zero or less, they will loose one hp per round until they die (at neg Constitution) or someone can stablize them and bring them back up to at least one hp (via magic or bandaging, or whatever). If they can't be brought back up to one hp, they will start to loose hp again. Also, the number of negative hp they went down to affects how long they will be bedridden due to their experience AND if they are brought up but then go down again, the effects are cumulative. i.e., if Rolf the Fighter drops to -4 hp, and Sara the Thief, who has the Healing Skill, brings him up to -1 hp by bandaging him, and then Rolf slips all the way down to -5 before Thar the Cleric can lay hands on him and succesfully bring him up to 1 hp, the cumulative 'negative' points are -4 + (-5 - -1) = -8. I also temporarily reduce Constitution, Dexterity and Strength by some appropriate amounts, and these will go up in proportion to the amount of true rest they've had while recuperation. Thus, until they are fully healed, AND have had enough rest, they will not be able to fight at their best. In some cases, they won't even be able to walk properly for days! (A lot of this part is determined 'on the fly' -- I do whatever seems appropriate under the current circumstances) One consequence of this is that a PC who insists on "carrying forth" may actually re-acquire all their hp, but still feel "wiped out" and unable to do things he or she normally would be able to do because their strength, constitution and/or dexterity has not recovered. Although this has never happened in my campaign yet, if this situation lasted long enough, I would probably make it a permanent condition. So, how do others handle this sort of thing? Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:06:44 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? On Fri, 2 May 1997 DM wrote: II wonder who plays nowadays with the OD&D system unmodified (that's to say, using only the basic rules given in the old blue-red-black etc boxes) and who uses Rules Cyclopaedia. Personally i use OD&D modified by the General Skills introducted with Gazetteers and other personal rules, so i don't really qualify as an OD&D player. Who does here? Who uses the old 1 face sheet given in the Basic Set?? >Just my ramblings today... Like you, I use a mixture of original D&D rules, Gazetteers, PC series rules and stuff of my own creation or adapted from other games. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 13:09:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Fri, 2 May 1997, Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: >So which village DOES mean "goat droppings". You still haven't answered that. Or don't you still want to reveal it? I don't think he remembers, or else I'm sure he'd have revealed it by now... Not that I'm calling you senile or anything, Bruce. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:23:11 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) In a message dated 97-05-02 05:25:47 EDT, you write: << Anyway, if you think about it you will definitely find you are just as nationalistic as the rest of us... at least as a country. (I'm not personally nationalistic, or at least not comparatively to most other British people.) >> Yep, Thorf, we Americans are truly just as bigoted as the rest of the world. I live just outside an American Indian reservation, and I'm constantly surprised by my friends bigoted attitudes towards the Indians, according to them they are all "drunken and stupid". We constantly make fun of "rednecks" (rural folk), and anti-Semitism is alive and well. It is true that we like to think of ourselves as morally superior than the rest of the world when it comes to "-isms", but that in itself is another form of nationalism. We're bigoted, we just don't like to admit it, even to ourselves! To tie this back to Mystara (I don't know why I keep trying to do this), how racist and bigoted are the peoples of the Known World? We know that Glantrians hate religious folk (at least the wizards in power do), we know the Hattians and Heldannic Knights hate those who aren't "Aryan", there's an animosity between dwarves and elves (which gets tiresome), the Traladarans and the Thyatians don't get along, and everybody hates the humanoids (who are just misunderstood! :) Seeds for thought . . . Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:38:24 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) In a message dated 97-05-02 14:03:56 EDT, you write: << I disagree. I would say that we probably have the same level of patriotism, but I don't feel very nationalistic. I would go to war to fight for my country (as most people probably would), but I don't hate Iraqis or Russians or Cubans simply because they are from that country. Fifty years ago, I would agree with you. I've talked to some old people, and do they ever hate the Japanese, even to this day. I guess now they don't really HATE them, just don't particularly like them. That's about as strong nationalism as I've seen here. Aron, don't you remember the Gulf War? The thing you must remember about nationalism and racism (sexism, all those -isms) is that no matter what culture you are from, *you're" never nationalistic and your countrymen aren't either, it's always the other guy. In Europe, nationalistic feuds are certainly more intense and heated that here in the states, IMHO we're just quieter about it. In earlier posts someone (no names) was offended that his culture was maligned (at least in his view), then turned around and slammed someone else's culture . . . and saw no hypocrisy. IMHO, it's the disease of the human race. After all this fun we've been having, I'm going to have to be a lot more careful about my posts on other cultures. I always knew we were a diverse bunch on this list, but I still didn't *realize* how easy it is to offend someone without meaning to! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:43:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) In a message dated 97-05-02 14:03:56 EDT, you write: << I disagree. I would say that we probably have the same level of patriotism, but I don't feel very nationalistic. >> When discussing "nationalism" actions speak much, much louder than words, and the actions of the USA over the last several hundred years have been so EXTREMELY nationalistic that they make the Bristish during the Opium Wars seem tame by comparison. While "Americans" may not be "Nationalistic" in the same manner that Europeans are, as in, we don't necessarily "Talk the Talk" we go a bit verboards in "Walk the Walk", if you know what I mean. I cannot connvince anyone out there that doesn't already believe or agree, but you can convince yourself of this. Just look up a few things in the library, and I'm not just talking a quick perusal in the encyclopedia; I'm talking about thorough research. Here is a SHORT list of things to look up: The War of 1812, find the TRUE REASON The Monroe Doctrine The Mexican American War and the Treaty of Guadaloupe-Hidalgo The Civil War, study just who really was freed with the Emancipation Proclimation The Spanish-American War American Involvement in Nicaragua, especially read about Augusto Sandino US involvement in Haiti and any number of Carribean countries The Red and White War in Russia The Cuba, the Mob, the Rise of Fidel Castro and the Cuban Revolution The Vietnam War (needless to say) The Invasion of Granada The Invasion of Panama The Gulf War and Bush's involvement in the rise of Saddam Hussein... Just a short list, like I promised. Read up on these, and you will no longer wonder about "American" nationalism, which is really nothing short of Imperialism... Now, that is the last I will say on the list about this thread, please direct any comments or questions to my address directly... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:57:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Death in Mystara The system I use when playing Mystara using OD&D is a Life Point System. Every character has a number of LP's equal to their Constitution score modified by their Strength bonus (or penalty). When they fall to 0 HP, damage is subtracted from their LP's at a rate of 1:1. Everytime they are damaged in LP's, including the 1st time, they have to roll a d20 vs their current LP score. If they roll equal to or under their current LP's, they are awake and standing. If they roll above their current LP's they are unconcious, and if the last wound they took was greater than or equal to their current LP's, they are bleeding 1 LP a minute (every 6 rounds); otherwise, no bleeding. If they roll higher than their current LP's plus 10, they die instantly. If their LP's ever fall to 0, they die. For example: Nuance the Wizard has a Con of 12 and a Str of 7, thus he has 11 LP. He is in combat and has been reduced to 3 HP. He is struck the next round by a sword for 8 pooints of damage, dropping his HP's to 0 and his life points to 6. His player rolls a d20 and it comes up a 3! Nuance is still standing! He backs away and casts a Magic Missile spell, killing the offending Orc. Two rounds later he is grazed by an arrow for one point, knocking him down to 5 LP's. His player rolls d20 again, rolling a 10. Nuance falls unconcious, but since his last wound was minor, he isn't bleeding. If he had rolled above a 15 (5LP's+10) Nuance would be dead meat... Works for me! Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:50:42 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) On Fri, 2 May 1997 Aron Reif wrote: OOOh come on, your exports of entertainment reek of nationalism! As usual, it is the nasty bits that somehow get shown most often and are most memorable, but you are ignoring certain events which have been forced in our faces through international media numerous times. >heh, heh...please don't believe that what is put out as "entertainment" is actually what Americans are like. Since I don't know which of our crap (that stuff you call "entertainment") gets put out overseas, I can't really comment on it much. Just know that anything that you see from America has to be taken with a grain of salt. Lots of the stuff from Television or Film is usually exaggerated (the police are not like "Die Hard", the women don't look like the ones from "Baywatch", etc.). Nobody really believes that a couple of stupid Americans with an Apple Powerbook are going to save the world from an alien invasion. Now that I think about it, if all non-Americans see of us is our Film/TV productions, I'm suprised we're taken seriously by anybody. Don't worry, I wasn't putting too much stock in entertainment to tell the truth. >>The best example is the so-called "American dream", which, though you may not view it as nationalism, is basically percieved as such here in Britain (and as such is laughed at cynically). >The idea of success in life through hard work is laughed at in Brittian?? I'm not really sure how that is considered nationalism either... To put it bluntly, yes. Most British people are a little bit cynical about the potential of gaining success just through working hard. I have only to look at my parents to see - both work extremely hard but they're not exactly wildly successful. The world is more complex than the American Dream makes out, and most British people laugh/cringe/sigh whenever we see/hear something about it. Quite honestly I don't really see how you can claim to not be a nationalistic country. Just look at the cold war... it was pretty much all about nationalism and patriotism. A lot of American ideas are coloured by nationalism - paranoia of communism and upholding of "the American way" most of all. BTW, PLEASE do not take offense at any of this, I am not trying to be nasty about your culture, in fact I respect Americans quite a lot. >>I've only been to France, Luxembourg, Germany and of course Scotland and England, but it is slightly different living on a small island-group within another island-group. Makes travel a WHOLE lot more expensive. I only know one language. (Though I do know a fair bit of French and Latin.) >See, there's my point. You've probably travelled/interacted with more cultures than 90% of Americans have. I'm guessing that it was a positive experience for you, and I think that more Americans should do it as well. I plan to visit Europe sometime in the next few years... Perhaps, but I always thought there was a lot of cultural diversity within America anyway. In any case, I am incidentally planning on visiting America this year or next... :-) And yes, I think a little experience of the world does nothing but good for you. >>Anyway, if you think about it you will definitely find you are just as nationalistic as the rest of us... at least as a country. (I'm not personally nationalistic, or at least not comparatively to most other British people.) >I disagree. I would say that we probably have the same level of patriotism, but I don't feel very nationalistic. But nationalism IS patriotic feeling! You can't really be patriotic and not nationalistic! >I would go to war to fight for my >country (as most people probably would), That is a very nationalistic feeling! Besides, I'm not sure I would. But that is perhaps due to me not believing that it would ever be necessary nowadays (wars are not fought like that anymore), and also because I don't think I could kill someone (and therefore I would make a very bad soldier - and I would also be a liability to others with me). >but I don't hate Iraqis or Russians>or Cubans simply because they are from that country. Fifty years ago, I would agree with you. I've talked to some old people, and do they ever hate the Japanese, even to this day. I guess now they don't really HATE them, just don't particularly like them. That's about as strong nationalism as I've seen here. But I don't hate English people simply because they are from England (actually I don't hate English people at all, but that's not the point here). We aren't talking about real people when it comes to nationalism, but someone's prejudices against that people as a whole. Thus, you may not like Iraq, and maybe even hate Saddam Hussein, but you are quite likely to be sympathetic to some Iraqis. But Iraq is a bad example... I do agree that nationalism (at least from my perspective) is manifest principally in older people (my grandad still doesn't like certain peoples as a whole thanks to the war). But there are certain feelings (like English versus Scottish) that are ingrained through upbringinng and experience, and are still in effect even today. It's unfortunate, but in the real world it is simply not feasible to have no opinions on certain issues. >Don't get me wrong, there is still plenty of racism here, particularly in the southern US. We as a country are working to minimize that, though. Hopefully in the next generation or two, we'll finally get that out of our system as well. I am not entirely sure where racism fits in with nationalism. It is similar in a way, just a different sort of prejudice. BUT... it overlaps in ways too that make it hard to place them apart or together. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:26:08 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? On Fri, 2 May 1997 "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" wrote: HHere's a question I'd like to ask: How do others on this list deal with "Death". IMC I give each player 'negative' hit points equal in value to their Constitution. Then, whenever a PC gets hit to zero or less, they will loose one hp per round until they die (at neg Constitution) or someone can stablize them and bring them back up to at least one hp (via magic or bandaging, or whatever). That is an interesting way of handling death. Personally I do something slightly similar. You don't die when you get to 0 or less hit points - instead you fall unconscious and will die unless tended to. Also, I almost never let a PC die unless they either do something obviously stupid and suicidal or it is really dramatically appropriate and the player will not mind. I just don't think killing a character players have been working with for a long time, sometimes years, is a realistic thing to do. It might be in the gameworld, but in real life it will really annoy the player as well as effectively wasting a great deal of both the player and the DM's time for the past few months or years! Thus, I don't allow mere dice rolls to kill characters. Unless I know they have a chance of being resurrected. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:46:26 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics At 06:17 2-05-97 -0400, TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: IIn a message dated 97-05-01 02:59:01 EDT, Ryan writes: ><<... to play AD$D you need at least 3 books and no player can build a castle, or have an army... >> >Now, now... Everyone gets to play with their favorite toys! No reason to resort to the offending $-thing. :) >Bruce Heard Hehe...sure you can build a castle. My lvl 16 Sword Knight (Dragonlance) has a pretty cool tower. I designed it myself...hehe.. BTW: Flaemish has defenitly a lot of Dutch influences :) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Man doth not yield himself to the Angels, nor unto Death utterly. Save only through the weakness of his feeble will." - Joseph Glanvill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 15:26:42 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Death (was OD&D or ModifiedD&D?) At 11.12 02/05/97 -0700, you wrote: Here is how I deal with "Death". When the PC goes under 0 hp I have him make a ST vs. Death Ray, if he succeed I consider him to be unconscious and he has to make a ST vs. Death Ray each turn or whenever he's hit. If someone heals him above 0 hp he's alive, but he has all penalties of a stunned character (see RC) for the current day (and sometimes also the following one). If he ever fails a ST he's dead and goes to Limbo. I think this is basically the same rule mentioned in the RC with a few modifications. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:36:04 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? Hi! *.) If you reach 0 HP, you will fall unconscious, and loose 1 HP/ round. At - -10 Hp, you die! If you want to act under 0 Hp, you can, but it stresses your body very much, and you will loose one D10 more. (This allows cinematic last actions!) *.)>Also, I almost never let a PC die unless they either do something oobviously stupid and suicidal or it is really dramatically appropriate and the player will not mind. I just don't think killing a character players have been working with for a long time, sometimes years, is a realistic thing to do. It might be in the gameworld, but in real life it will really annoy the player as well as effectively wasting a great deal of both the player and the DM's time for the past few months or years! >Thus, I don't allow mere dice rolls to kill characters. Unless I know they have a chance of being resurrected. Realistic is definitly the wrong word for your argument. If the PCs die, if they take risks, that´s very realistic. Why is the time playing the character wasted, when he dies? Is the time reading a book wasted, when a hero die? Why should the player be annoied? If you don´t let the PCs die once in a while, even if they take great risks, you will take much suspense out of the game. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:13:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >At 09:57 AM 4/30/97 +0000, DM wrote: >Now I'm feeling even more lonely... Am I the /only/ female? >*snif* Where's Ann Dupuis when I need her? .... (I just remembered her, but she's been so quiet lately I don't know if she's still with us or not) I found a Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity lying about, so if anyone is volunteering to change sex, I guess I could lend it away. (Not planning to use it myself) :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:21:57 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] When Game meets Reality (and Fiction) On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Aron Reif wrote: >At 12:00 PM 4/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >>In a message dated 97-04-30 08:42:11 EDT, you write: >><< PWA1013 (Joshuan crap) mentions Per Kirvik, ttthe UFO expert of Glantri, and his intials are the same of one of the greatest UFO experts of real world, Peter Kolosimo (P.K.); just a coincidence? >> >>Also: >>Per Kirvik (3:6) >>Fox Mulder (3:6) >>Hmmm.... >I think you have too much time on your hands...either that, or you believe there are as many conspiracies as Mulder does... You saying Mulder is mistaken? I bet you are just trying to prevent us froom learning the Truth :P Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:00:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Thyatian Varangian Guard On Thu, 1 May 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-01 20:52:44 EDT, Mystaros@aol.com writes: ><< Ahh, the Varangian Guard! Has anyone developed a similar institution for the >Empire of Thyatis? >> >If no such group existed from the beginning, Thincol would certainly have created it -- after all, he originally came from Norwold, IIRC. Also, there are many northlanders residing in the empire. This is why Odin and Thor are so popular there. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:14:02 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The Whole "Nationalism" Thread Needs to Die... The thread on America and whether or not it is a nationalistic country, mostly found under the "History (was Traladaran Language)" subject needs to end now. It has nothing to do with Mystara, and looks like it has a good chance of becoming inflammatory. If you wish to continue, please take it to private e-mail. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:46:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? In a message dated 97-05-03 00:09:14 EDT, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << Also, I almost never let a PC die unless they either do something obviously stupid and suicidal or it is really dramatically appropriate and the player will not mind. I just don't think killing a character players have been working with for a long time, sometimes years, is a realistic thing to do. It might be in the gameworld, but in real life it will really annoy the player as well as effectively wasting a great deal of both the player and the DM's time for the past few months or years! >> I have always tried to give PCs in my campaign an incentive to "die well" -- the nature of their death determined what fraction of the previous PC's XP total the player's next character would get. However, I was generally a rather merciful DM, so that rule was very seldom used. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:46:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Crossbreeds In a message dated 97-05-02 04:36:24 EDT, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << Anyway, the point is I have a cool concept which will be great for role- playing. The PC will go all over the place tracking down the rest of his family, and when he gets to a higher level (and the power doesn't matter so much) I may allow him some very limited access to his heritage. What do you all think? Any ideas for progressions from this or a good and balanced way to introduce elements of his draconic heritage? >> For anyone who picked up the _Glantri_ boxed set, one of its few items of interest was the concept of "Progeny", which were basically humans, elves, or half-elves who were (distantly( descended from magical monsters. A character who has a remote dragon ancestor would certainly qualify and could easily be generated from the "Progeny" tables. From the player's point of view, playing a "Progeny" is probably not worthwhile -- the substantial XP penalty more than compensates for the few advantages that such a character would receive. BTW, I have a question for anyone from TSR who was connected with this project. Would a character whose roll indicated "False Claim" (roll 01-50 on the Progeny table) suffer the same XP penalty as true Progeny? I would think not, since such a character is in fact totally "normal". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 16:18:45 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) At 07:50 PM 5/2/97 +0100, you wrote: >>The idea of success in life through hard work is laughed at in Brittian?? I'm not really sure how that is considered nationalism either... >To put it bluntly, yes. Most British people are a little bit cynical about the potential of gaining success just through working hard. I have only to look at my parents to see - both work extremely hard but they're not exactly wildly successful. The world is more complex than the American Dream makes out, and most British people laugh/cringe/sigh whenever we see/hear something about it. well, ok, to each his own...I still believe in it (yes, I know that you need more than just hard work, but it's a start). >BTW, PLEASE do not take offense at any of this, I am not trying to be nasty about your culture, in fact I respect Americans quite a lot. oh, if I came off as defensive or being offended, it wasn't my intention. You all have made very good points, and it seems as if I've sorta come around to your point of view. I agree with you all that you seldom see your own racism/nationalism, and it gives me something to think about. >>See, there's my point. You've probably travelled/interacted with more cultures than 90% of Americans have. I'm guessing that it was a positive experience for you, and I think that more Americans should do it as well. I plan to visit Europe sometime in the next few years... >Perhaps, but I always thought there was a lot of cultural diversity within America anyway. perhaps in the cities, you're right. Out in the more rural areas, it's much more culturally/racially/religiously stagnant. Not much mixing going on, which is one reason for the high level of racism in these areas. >In any case, I am incidentally planning on visiting America this year or next... :-) well, hey, we'd be glad to have ya! >And yes, I think a little experience of the world does nothing but good for you. yup, that's why I want to do it (at least, it's one reason)... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 16:20:42 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] When Game meets Reality (and Fiction) At 05:21 PM 5/3/97 +0200, you wrote: >>I think you have too much time on your hands...either that, or you believe there are as many conspiracies as Mulder does... >You saying Mulder is mistaken? I bet you are just trying to prevent us froom learning the Truth :P Well, I *AM* working for the US Gov't, after all. :) Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 16:28:42 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The Whole "Nationalism" Thread Needs to Die... At 10:14 AM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >The thread on America and whether or not it is a nationalistic country, mostly found under the "History (was Traladaran Language)" subject needs to end now. It has nothing to do with Mystara, and looks like it has a good chance of becoming inflammatory. If you wish to continue, please take it to private e-mail. oops, looks like I replied too soon. I don't think you have to worry about it being too inflammatory; I thought we were keeping it pretty civil. In any case, we'll stop. You have to admit, though, you can't keep on topic ALL the time. Where else can you find an "international discussion group" list? I suppose we should keep it to a minimum, but it's a nice change of pace, as long as it only happens occasionally. Aron Reif areif@vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:10:15 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? >Realistic is definitly the wrong word for your argument. If the PCs die, if they take risks, that´s very realistic. No, I meant realistic as in real world realistic. That is it just is not feasible for my campaigns, in which players *always* get very attached to their characters. Of course, if they do do something stupid or make a major error, they will probably end up dead. I merely meant that, for instance, I won't let a stray lucky shot from an orc kill off a character when it would only spoil the game for that player. My basic theory is that it is worth sacrificing some of the atmosphere (which can be built up in ways other than terrible risk of death) in order to have more fun. Almost without exception killing a character off in any of my campaigns would prevent that player (and sometimes others) from having fun. WHY would I do that? >Why is the time playing the character wasted, when he dies? Is the time reading a book wasted, when a hero die? Why should the player be annoied? Not the same thing at all. Does the book go up in flames so that you can never read the end when the hero is picked off accidentally by a pit trap? Of course not. Since players only participate in the game through their characters, and not through all the heroes (as in a book), killing off their character is removing the player from the game. Plus, we tend to have very well-backgrounded, well-developed characters which the players are very fond of. This means that if I allow them to get killed through a silly game rule they will not be happy. Yes, they will have had fun, but all of their great ambitions for future play will be dashed! >If you don´t let the PCs die once in a while, even if they take great risks, you will take much suspense out of the game. Yes, which is why, as I already mentioned, in those situations, along with situations in which they are being silly or suicidal, I will certainly allow them to die. The thing is, I don't want to go to the other extreme and have them die every adventure only to be resurrected at the end. If I do let them be killed, they will sometimes have a chance at being resurrected, and they will always be in Limbo if killed unsatisfactorily. (The heroes in books usually die heroically for a cause they truly believe in. Though some are not "finished" with their time on the world, most are somehow "satisfied" in their death, usually through a great sacrifice.) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #67 **************************** Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:08:00 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #68 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, May 5 1997 Volume 02 : Number 068 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:12:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian Pantheon Mystaros@aol.com pontificated: >2) Yes, Ssu-Ma would be a more logical choice, but his parochial nature wouldn't allow him to play the part of a "Wife" to anyone, hile Diamond doesn't really worry about what sex of avatar he creates: after all, he isn't even Human in origin (neither was Thoth for that matter). Besides, Ssu-Ma hadn't really come into the picture as yet, as he was concnetrating on the Proto-Ochalean Empire in Auld Alphatia (the Alphatian equivalent of the RW Orient), from which he had originated (he was their "Cunfucious"). Well, Ssu-Ma was castrated after a little argument with the Emperor, so maybe playing "wife" would not be as much a stretch :). Dragon, while not humanoid, still have distinct sex, and I think their avatar, even if created to be of another race, would probably be predominatly of the same sex. But, IIRC, there have been several Diamonds, so maybe some of them are female. - -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:36:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian Pantheon In a message dated 97-05-03 21:38:38 EDT, you write: << Well, Ssu-Ma was castrated after a little argument with the Emperor, so maybe playing "wife" would not be as much a stretch :). Dragon, while not humanoid, still have distinct sex, and I think their avatar, even if created to be of another race, would probably be predominatly of the same sex. But, IIRC, there have been several Diamonds, so maybe some of them are female. >> Ah, the historical Ssu-Ma, perhaps... but I was referring to the Ssu-Ma I had developed for my Ochaelan pantheon. The Ochaleans are notoriously patriarchal, and the very idea of a man playing the part of a woman, let alone of a male Immortal playing the part of a female Immortal, would be quite beyond their conception. And in my Ochalean history, the "Mystaran" Ssu-Ma was the progenitor of the Ochalean Civilization, long millenia ago on their homeworld, the same as that of the Slphatians and the Cypri. As for Diamond, as you mention, the "Position" of Star Diamond puts him, and the other Immortal Dragons, in the position of playing many different parts, Draconic, male, female amd otherwise... Mystaros BTW, what have others done with Ochalea? I've seen one explanation elsewhere that it was hypothesised that the Ochaleans were a race native to the Alphatian continent when the Alphatians arrived (a lost Oltec colony, perhaps?), and that they were dumped on the Isle of Ochalea sort of as a penal colony/reservation, along with Common Alphatian "undesireables" (I think Isaw this on a web page once, perhaps Musseus? I'm not sure). I've also seen references to the "MOrient" project. Who is involved with that and what is it? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:42:35 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian Pantheon On Sun, 4 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >BTW, what have others done with Ochalea? I've seen one explanation elsewhere that it was hypothesised that the Ochaleans were a race native to the Alphatian continent when the Alphatians arrived (a lost Oltec colony, perhaps?), and that they were dumped on the Isle of Ochalea sort of as a penal colony/reservation, along with Common Alphatian "undesireables" (I think Isaw this on a web page once, perhaps Musseus? I'm not sure). I've also seen references to the "MOrient" project. Who is involved with that and what is it? I have proposed something along these lines sometime ago. I certainly have it guarded somewhere, but it is hidden among tons of files I kept from the list. I intend to order them sometime, but not in the next two months, so you'll have to wait for me (or somebody else). About the MOrient project, we are trying to develop oriental civilizations in Skothar, starting with chinese and japanese ones, after having decided for a basic outline of the countries in the continent. It is being very quiet in the last month or two, but I hope it is just we are very busy lately (I know I am). Anyway, you'd be welcome if you wanted to contribute to it. Andre Martins ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:03:22 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? Hi! >No, I meant realistic as in real world realistic. That is it just is not feasible for my campaigns, in which players *always* get very attached to their characters. Hmm, I think I get your point! But IMC the players are often also very attached to their characters, so there is even more emotion involved. And yes, you are right, there is also more frustration, if the PC dies (often only for a short time), but there is much more satsifaction, when they reach a certain goal, if they know and have seen that I kill PCs. >Of course, if they do do something stupid or make a major error, they will probably end up dead. I merely meant that, for instance, I won't let a stray lucky shot from an orc kill off a character when it would only spoil the game for that player. That´s the same IMC. I still have the feeling, that death happens more often IMC. If the party goes into a ork-ridden wood, and they have heard about it, there will be a chance that a lucky shot will kill one of them. I often let mistakes and bad luck both be enough for death. An recent example from my campaign: The party played a (modified) X7, where the (evil) priest Ulobon was a 20th Lvl. priest, and had a special item (minor artefact) for summoning water-elementals. So he summoned a very powerful elemental (30HD, APR:3, D:9D8) and ordered him to attack the party. He attacked most openly the paladin. But then the mage succeeded in geting a spell through the magic resistance, and hurted him. The elemental now saw that the mage is quite a potential threat, so he cast a spell on him (from the AD&D, Player Option, Spells& Magic). I as DM told the player that he now has to succeed in makind a ST vs. spells with a -6 (because I use the ST mali from AD&D, High-Level-Campaign), or suffer 386 HP (as I decided that this elemental casts water-elemental spells with the double effiecency), if he makes it, there would be no damage. He didn´t succeed. The mage then was transformed in a water elemental (which now is imprisoned in the above-mentioned artifact). But after the first fight, the PCs had quite some respect for the elemental, and they waited with very much suspense in the air for the next confrontation. BTW, I made adveturing underwater a real pain in the ass, so even with water-breathing the PCs had problems with pressure at 1000´. >My basic theory is that it is worth sacrificing some of the atmosphere (which can be built up in ways other than terrible risk of death) in order to have more fun. Almost without exception killing a character off in any of my campaigns would prevent that player (and sometimes others) from having fun. WHY would I do that? Depends, because athmosphere often means fun. And to be honest, I once have played in a campaign, where nobody got killed. But as an effect it often had no sense in preparing for an attack, or for adventuring, because if you didn´t make a stupid mistake, you couldn´t die. I find it much more taxing and fun, to play in a campaign, where death is possible. But I also played in a campaign, where your PC woul die, nor matter what you do, which also is not satisfactory. (But I still have a PC in this campaign, which lives (the only one!)) >>Why is the time playing the character wasted, when he dies? Is the time reading a book wasted, when a hero die? Why should the player be annoied? >Not the same thing at all. Does the book go up in flames so that you can never read the end when the hero is picked off accidentally by a pit trap? Of course not. Since players only participate in the game through their characters, and not through all the heroes (as in a book), killing off their character is removing the player from the game. Does the memory or the written notes of the player go up in flame? And sometimes the player will stop playing in the campaign, if his character dies, but I have seen this only once. >Plus, we tend to have very well-backgrounded, well-developed characters which the players are very fond of. This means that if I allow them to get killed through a silly game rule they will not be happy. Yes, they will have had fun, but all of their great ambitions for future play will be dashed! IMC the characters are also well-developed. And the players IMC will also not get killed by a silly rule, but only when I think that he now had made a big enough mistake and had failed enough dice-rolls. >>If you don´t let the PCs die once in a while, even if they take great risks, you will take much suspense out of the game. >Yes, which is why, as I already mentioned, in those situations, along with situations in which they are being silly or suicidal, I will certainly allow them to die. As I mentioned, the PCs iMC will not only die in suicidal and silly situations. Doesn´t that happen in every campaign. (PC: I jump down! GM: What, you jump into the Grand Canyon? PC: Yes GM: Umm, ...... a big eagle flies by, sees you, and mistakes you for another bird, and takes you to his nest. ) >The thing is, I don't want to go to the other extreme and have them die every adventure only to be resurrected at the end. If I do let them be killed, they will sometimes have a chance at being resurrected, and they will always be in Limbo if killed unsatisfactorily. (The heroes in books usually die heroically for a cause they truly believe in. Though some are not "finished" with their time on the world, most are somehow "satisfied" in their death, usually through a great sacrifice.) IMC the PCs don´t die every adventure, every third adventure one of the PCs dies. But I think every adventure some of the PCs comes close. I also had a very satisfactory death IMC, as in my StarTrek-campaign a PC, an old Klingon war-legend, who was demoted and transferred to an Federation ship, there he fought a founder (a changling), nearly killed it, but got killed himself. The player (and probably the character) was very happy with this ending, as it was the honorary death in battle, the Klingon wanted. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:57:26 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The Whole "Nationalism" Thread Needs toDie... >oops, looks like I replied too soon. No problem. The vaguries of e-mail and time can result in these kind of things. >I don't think you have to worry about >it being too inflammatory; I thought we were keeping it pretty civil. New to mailing lists? :) Seriously though, my experience has shown that any thread on certain subjects can turn into flames, no matter how civil it starts. And it was really far from topic. >You have to admit, though, you can't keep on topic ALL the time. Well, sorta. Have you read the FAQ? It delineates what is and is not allowed. In general, I don't stop a thread the second it wanders off topic, but after a certain point I have to kill it. http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm >Where else can you find an "international discussion group" list? Actually , there are quite a few. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:04:04 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] Dragon Decendant Sorry for posting this to the whole list: Whoever it was that talked about one of his players PC's who had been set up with a Dragon as an ancestor, I accidentally errased your message but wanted to keep it because it had given me some useful ideas related to my part in the MOrient project. (I'm working on the "Oriental Dragons" and their role as the Emperor's of Chung Eun (MChina)) Could you please send me another copy of what you sent the list and, maybe, any additional related information you've developed for this PC? I'm interested in your ideas because they fit in with some of the things I've been developing on my own. Thanks! Jenni (PS: No reason bothering the whole list with this further, please send your reply to strawberry@jamm.com! --JAMM) - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:55:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Nithian Pantheon In a message dated 97-05-04 02:00:35 EDT, you write: << About the MOrient project, we are trying to develop oriental civilizations in Skothar, starting with chinese and japanese ones, >> This sounds very interesting. Will these countries be an offshoot of the Men of Jen, or will they have developed from another colony of Oltecs (or even from Azcans, or possibly even from the Tangor)? Since the Oltec and Azcan peoples were the "Native American" cultures, it would seem a logical choice, as the Native Americans of the RW are actually distantly related to the various Oriental peoples (sort of like RW history, only in reverse, which would go with the style of cultural development in Mystara vis a vis the history of the RW). I myself have placed an Empire with various related minor states in the "Tangor Chain", from "Tangor Bay" through "Zyxl"; it has a few things in common with "Oriental" cultures, but it really has more in common with a logical evolution of native African socieite had the Europeans not colonized (sort of a "What If" of the empires of Songhay, Mali, Ghana, Ashanti and Benin through to Zimbabwe, etc). Just as advanced as the nations of the Known World, except much more insular... mostly due to the fact that their lands are so far removed from "Civilized" peoples (after all, their neighbors are the Men of Jen and the Minaeans). Haven't delved into much, it's really just an amorphous concept... But I have done some work with Ochalea, needless to say, and I would love to contribute what I have done with that if it fits in with the concepts your group has evolved... once it is all on the computer, of course... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:17:59 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? >>Why is the time playing the character wasted, when he dies? Is the time reading a book wasted, when a hero die? Why should the player be annoied? The time playing the character may not be wasted, but when I DM, each player spends at least a couple hours creating his or her character before we begin, and countless hours developing the character throughout the campaign, allowing for more developed characters. My adventuring groups have far less time to play than we would like, so the time spent creating new characters is, in a sense, "wasted time." >>Plus, we tend to have very well-backgrounded, well-developed characters which the players are very fond of. This means that if I allow them to get killed through a silly game rule they will not be happy. Yes, they will have had fun, but all of their great ambitions for future play will be dashed! >IMC the characters are also well-developed. And the players IMC will also not get killed by a silly rule, but only when I think that he now had made a >big enough mistake and had failed enough dice-rolls. I definitely agree with this approach. The dice should be used as a guide, but they should not mean automatic death for a PC. >>The thing is, I don't want to go to the other extreme and have them die every adventure only to be resurrected at the end. If I do let them be killed, they will sometimes have a chance at being resurrected, and they will always be in Limbo if killed unsatisfactorily. (The heroes in books usually die heroically for a cause they truly believe in. Though some are not "finished" with their time on the world, most are somehow "satisfied" in their death, usually through a great sacrifice.) >IMC the PCs don´t die every adventure, every third adventure one of the PCs >dies. But I think every adventure some of the PCs comes close. A problem that I have with character death even this often is that it makes an ongoing campaign difficult. When a PC dies, the player 1) leaves the group, 2) starts a new lev. 1 character, or 3) starts a character near the level of the rest of the group. Option 1 obviously is not the best option if the goal is for everyone to have fun. Option 2 simply does not work if the party is made up of very high-level characters, making an ongoing campaign impractible. Option 3, IMHO, takes away from the atmosphere of the game. It is far more rewarding to guide a character from the beginningof his or her adventuring career all the way to his death. The sense of accomplishment is greater, and the character has more depth. By starting at a higher level, even if they are given a detailed background, the character can never be as well-rounded as if he or she started at the beginning. So, IMC, death is relatively common for low (1-3) level characters, but it grows increasingly rare as the party goes up in level. My justification is that higher-level characters should naturally survive better, after all, isn't that the point of being higher-level? Also, by establishing at the beginning of a campaign that I will not hesitate to kill PCs, the players have more of an appreciation of mortality for the entire campaign. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 20:52:49 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] 1014 Almanac at MPGN Tanks to Sean Reynolds the Mystaran Almanac for 1014 AC is now available at MPGN at the following address: ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/mystara1014.zip (250Kb) PS: this is the 1.2 version in .doc format - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/ - -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 13:51:10 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: PC Death (was Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D?) At 11:17 AM 5/4/97 -0700, Patrick wrote: >A problem that I have with character death even this often is that it makes an ongoing campaign difficult. When a PC dies, the player 1) leaves the group, 2) starts a new lev. 1 character, or 3) starts a character near the level of the rest of the group. Option 1 obviously is not the best option if the goal is for everyone to have fun. Option 2 simply does not work if the party is made up of very high-level characters, making an ongoing campaign impractible. Option 3, IMHO, takes away from the atmosphere of the game. It is far more rewarding to guide a character from the beginning of his or her adventuring career all the way to his death. The sense of accomplishment is greater, and the character has more depth. By starting at a higher level, even if they are given a detailed background, the character can never be as well-rounded as if he or she started at the beginning. I agree with Patrick here and think he outlines the problem very clearly. Relatively frequent death may lend realism to the campaign, but it interferes with group continuity. How would the _Lord of the Rings_ been if every one hundred pages one of the members of the Fellowship died and was replaced by someone? The reader would have a hard time identifying with and sympathizing with those characters. Why? Because 1) less events happen with that character, and less material is devoted to developing that character and 2) the reader comes to realize that that character is going to die in about 100 pages anyway, so why bother caring so much? Similarly, the richness of character development possible with a high turnover rate is much less than that for an ongoing character, and furthermore the player (all the players, in fact) are justifiably going to care less about the PC because they know that even if they play smart and safe, odds are he/she will die sometime within the next 3 adventures. Also, when you have long, detailed campaigns, adventures connect, NPCs reappear, and events from a significant length of time into the past become relevant in the future. Villains recur, some information or happenings don't make sense until far down the line. Without the same characters, the impact of those evolving, predictive events is far less. The PLAYER may appreciate it, but the character usually has no business realizing the connection, or even caring. This is not to argue for no character death, but to make it rarer, and to make it more momentous when it happens. Also, if you're concerned about striking fear into the hearts of your players, there are FAR, FAR better ways than death....BUT...they only work with long-standing, developed characters. For example, murder or taking hostage of loved ones, destruction of one's high reputation, loss of all material possessions, loss of membership in an institution critical to the character's function (e.g. a cleric's church, a mage's guild, a fighter's order). These kinds of losses often cause more pain if the character is played right, because after a few moments of shock and dismay at being just plain dead, it's irrelevant. The character is literally history, and any continuing feelings are just nostalgia; it's time to make a new character. But when you have misfortune of the nonlethal kind, the feeling of punishment or poor luck can be more profound for the player, PLUS, they hopefully have a chance to rectify the situation, which stimulates adventures. Death rarely stimulates an adventure unless you're using rules where one can always go into Limbo or quest to resurrect, or if every player's new character new and loved the old character so that he/she lusts for vengeance (which gets cliche). Bla bla, that's enough from me :) / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 97 20:58:52 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] Traladaran roots, Campaign questions Thorfinn Tait asked ... **What campaigns are you currently runnning/playing in? Too many!! I run a single OD&D campaign currently in Thyatis but it has ranged over much of the eastern parts of the Known World and also part of the Hollow World. The PC's are involved in the WotL as well as a separate quest to find the parts of a mythic sword. I take part in 4 other campaigns 1. Another OD&D campaign as a mage and a thief. Visit my web page to see how Trimus and his friends are getting along (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html) 2. An AD&D campaign where I play a ranger by the name of Otis set in the Land of Greyhawk 3. An AD&D campaign where every one is evil (not all are chaotic) where I play a Royal Mage by the name of Prince Sewandt. This is great fun and has given us lots of laughs as everyone tries to outdo the other to the greater glory of Set. This is also set in the land of Greyhawk. 4. A recent AD&Done here were I play a Halfling Cleric by the name of Boslo Tunnaly. Again this is in the Land of Greyhawk **How long has it (or have they) been running? My campaign - a long time - 5 years at least but we can't get together as often as I would like. 1. About 3 years for the same reason 2/3/4 Each has only had one or two sessions as these are 'one off adventures rather than on going campaigns and they are dependant on when the 6 or seven players can get together. **What races/levels/etc. are the characters? Mine and #1 on average level 7 to 8 2/3/4 Level 10 to 14. What is the longest-running campaign you have ever played in/run? As above. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: PC Death (was Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D?) In a message dated 97-05-04 17:11:23 EDT, dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu (David 'Azure' Leland) writes: << How would the _Lord of the Rings_ been if every one hundred pages one of the members of the Fellowship died and was replaced by someone? >> The _Lord of the Rings_ is definitely an excellent example illustrating how in a fantasy campaign player character death should be rare but possible. Remember that by the end of the first book, two of the original nine characters are dead. While one comes back, the death of the other haunts much of the remaining two books. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:33:12 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: PC Death (was Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D?) Hi! >I agree with Patrick here and think he outlines the problem very clearly. Relatively frequent death may lend realism to the campaign, but it interferes with group continuity. How would the _Lord of the Rings_ been if every one hundred pages one of the members of the Fellowship died and was replaced by someone? The reader would have a hard time identifying with and sympathizing with those characters. Why? Because 1) less events happen with that character, and less material is devoted to developing that character and 2) the reader comes to realize that that character is going to die in about 100 pages anyway, so why bother caring so much? Similarly, the richness of character development possible with a high turnover rate is much less than that for an ongoing character, and furthermore the player (all the players, in fact) are justifiably going to care less about the PC because they know that even if they play smart and safe, odds are he/she will die sometime within the next 3 adventures. Okay, so it IS my turn again. 1.) I think LotR is a good example for my point of view. Because on the one hand there is no ressurection in Middle-Eartn (umm, except for Gandalf of course), so there death is much more final than in AD&D, on the second hand in LotR some heroes die, now not talking about any "NPCs" like Theoden, but Party-members like Boromir. I found the death very good for the suspence of this book. >The _Lord of the Rings_ is definitely an excellent example illustrating how in a fantasy campaign player character death should be rare but possible. Remember that by the end of the first book, two of the original nine characters >are dead. While one comes back, the death of the other haunts much of the remaining two books. Umm, thanks, I think now my paragraph is obsolete. 2.) To say it again, my PCs don´t die every minute, and as they know that the possibilty of death IMC is high, they act very couscious. There is one of the PCs, a paladin, which was brought from 1st Level to 14th Level in 4-5 years of gaming (real time).(No, he doesn´t have a holy sword.) And okay, I will no look up the last ten adventures, and the PCs, who died are: the mage (now 13th lvl.): 3, twice in one evening; the elven fighter/mage(now 10th/10th): twice at the same fights; With at least 4 players an evening (with as much as seven) there is a change of 1/8 to die in my campaign on one evening. And there is another character, who never has died, a prist from 3rd to 12th lvl. 3.) As I said I liked the death of Boromir, because then it was suddenly not clear anymore, that no hero wil die. 4.) to quote it again: >character and 2) the reader comes to realize that that character is going to die in about 100 pages anyway, so why bother caring so much? The character will not die anyway, but only if he takes risks, makes mistakes or has bad lucks. He can survive the whole story, if he takes enough precautions and knows his strentgh and weaknesses. And if there is the possibilty that the character dies, I as a reader will care for him much more. 5.)If the PCs play ´smart and safe´, they will most probably NOT die! >Also, when you have long, detailed campaigns, adventures connect, NPCs reappear, and events from a significant length of time into the past become relevant in the future. Villains recur, some information or happenings don't make sense until far down the line. Without the same characters, the impact of those evolving, predictive events is far less. The PLAYER may appreciate it, but the character usually has no business realizing the connection, or even caring. I habe no problem with this, as there are two PCs which have survived! >For example, murder or taking hostage of loved ones, destruction of one's high reputation, loss of all material possessions, loss of membership in an institution critical to the character's function (e.g. a cleric's church, a mage's guild, a fighter's order). I use this kinds of ´punishment´ also sometimes! But if the PCs are adventuring, the chance of getting killed is higher. For example the paladin now killed somebody, only because somebody told him that this one is evil, so he now has lost most of his abilities. >The character is literally history, and any continuing feelings are just nostalgia; it's time to make a new character. No, if the character is played well, his actions and also his background story has quite some effect on the campaign, even if he is dead. >Death rarely >stimulates an adventure unless you're using rules where one can always go into Limbo or quest to resurrect, or if every player's new character new and loved the old character so that he/she lusts for vengeance (which gets cliche). One other thing, what ist this Limbo, you mare talking about? I think there was a threat on this list, but I´ve forgotten most of it! *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:00:09 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: PC Death (was Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D?) ><< How would the _Lord of the Rings_ been >if every one hundred pages one of the members of the Fellowship died and was replaced by someone? >> >The _Lord of the Rings_ is definitely an excellent example illustrating how >in a fantasy campaign player character death should be rare but possible. Remember that by the end of the first book, two of the original nine characters >are dead. While one comes back, the death of the other haunts much of the remaining two books. I think this example also illustrates another of David's points. Of all of the companions, Boromir is the one I sympathized with least. This is probably largely because his character was never developed to the same degree as the others, because there was less time with him. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:03:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: PC Death (was Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D?) In a message dated 97-05-04 20:18:46 EDT, Dennis.Sullivan.Family@worldnet.att.net (Patrick) writes: << I think this example also illustrates another of David's points. Of all of the companions, Boromir is the one I sympathized with least. This is probably largely because his character was never developed to the same degree as the others, because there was less time with him. >> Boromir was depicted as gruff and flawed, which not only made him seem unsympathetic but led to his death and the scattering of the party. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:04:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: PC Death (was Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D?) Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: >Boromir was depicted as gruff and flawed, which not only made him seem unsympathetic but led to his death and the scattering of the party. When I first read LotR, I felt very sympathetic of Boromir, alot of it because he is flawed, a classic tragic hero. Doing everything what he throught was right, not realizing his own problems. In the end, he finally realized his mistake, but was too late. Going back to topic, I always not sure exactly what is the best way to handle death of PC. Especially I really don't like raise dead spells, so once a PC died, it is not as easy as to get back to the town and find the church. So while I don't like to kill PC, the possibility of death should alwyas be there. And sometime death of long time NPC followers will have similar dramic impact to the players as death of their own character, without some of the problems associated with the death of PC. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:58:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] In the Beginning... [Long] This is my Multiverse Creation Epic, the Rough Draft... Origins of the Multiverse In the Beginning... Five billion years before the crowning of the Emperor of Thyatis the Sphere of Creation overthrew the Reign of the Sphere of Negation at the close of the Age of Chaos, ending the War of Creation. This heralded the beginning of the Reign of the Sphere of Creation. The Sphere of Creation expanded into the four Spheres of Life: the Sphere of Order, the Sphere of Thought, the Sphere of Time and the Sphere of Energy. The Spheres of Negation, comprised of the Sphere of Chaos, the Sphere of Decay, the Sphere of Oblivion, and the Sphere of Entropy, contracted into the single Sphere of Death [aka the Sphere of Entropy]. The Powers of Creation relegated the Powers of Negation and the Essence of their Sphere to the Void Beyond the Spheres, that the Reign of the Sphere of Creation might commence. The Elemental Planes of Earth, Air, Water and Fire were fashioned by the Powers of the Spheres of Life the Essences of their respective Spheres and from the Aether, the Primal Essence of the Sphere of Creation. Within and separated from one another by the Aether, the Elemental Planes formed the womb for the Potentiality that was the Primal Sphere, which lay within the Aether at the single common point between the Elemental Planes. Together these regions made up the entirety of the Known Spheres, which lay within the Great Barrier, beyond which lay the Void Beyond the Spheres. The Powers of Balance, made up of equal numbers of the Powers of Creation and Negation, which were neutral during the War of Creation, at this point had their Primal Essence dispersed into the Primal Sphere. The fusion of the Primal Essence of the Powers of Balance with the Potentiality of the Primal Sphere heralded the beginning of Creation, as the juxtaposition of theequal, yet opposing Powers of Balance, within the Primal Sphere, at the locus of the Elemental Planes, allowed Order to yield to Chaos, which caused Thought in turn to Decay, which allowed Time to fall into Oblivion, and finally caused Energy to dissolve into Entropy. The stresses brought about by the struggle between these forces, greater in strength than even the Potentiality of the Primal Sphere, caused the Primal Sphere to expand. The Essence of the Powers of Balance were too volatile for the expanding Primal Sphere, and they exploded out from the Primal Sphere, into the Aether and the Elemental Planes. The Formation of the Prime Plane The expanded form of the Primal Sphere became the Prime Plane, which, like the Primal Sphere before it, was made up of equal portions of the four Elemental Planes; unlike the Primal Sphere, the Prime Plane was infused with the remaining balance of the energies of the Powers of Balance. Earth, Air, Water and Fire were all mixed in the morass that formed the Prime Plane, given Potential from the Essence of the Powers of Balance. The Powers of the Spheres of Life molded this primal ooze by imposing Order on Matter, facilitated through Thought, expedited through Time and stimulated through Energy. Galaxies took shape, and within those galaxies formed Stars, and around those Stars formed Planets, and upon those Planets Life took shape.The balance of the Essence of the Powers of Balance cause the Life of the Prime Plane to evolve, as the forces of the essence of the Powers of Balance turned upon each other; rather than causing an explosion this case, the Essence caused an implosion within Life, and tied Life to the Essences of Order, Thought, Time and Energy. Death, too, was represented here, but this was not the Corruption of the Powers of Negation, rather, this was the Balance of Life and Death, which was a necessary part of Creation. The Elemental Planes and Races Meanwhile, the Elemental Planes were undergoing rapid evolution without the active participation of the Powers of Creation. The Essence of the Powers of Balance that coursed through the Elemental Planes after the explosion about the Primal Sphere engendered Life in the Elemental Planes. The different forms of Matter, Thought, Time and Energy arose in each of the Elemental Planes and Life took form. Elemental Beings arose from the Essence of each of the Elemental Planes, defined by Order, engaged in Thought, living through Time and animated by Energy. Each of these life forms, of course, was dominated by the Essential Nature of their respective Elemental Plane. Thus, the Earth Elementals were dominated by Order, and were bulky and ponderous in form. The Air Elementals were dominated by Thought, and thus were ephemeral and delicate in form. The Water Elementals were dominated by Time, and thus were fluid and yet unyielding in form. And the Fire Elementals were dominated by Energy, and thus were ever motive and changing in form. Death was present here as it was on the Prime Plane, but as the Essential Natures of the Elemental Planes were different from that of the Prime Plane, so was the nature of Death in the Elemental Planes different from that of Death in the Prime Plane. By their nature, were these beings to cross into the Prime Plane, they would form bodies of the appropriate Elements, and were these bodies to be slain on the Prime Plane, the Essential Core of the being would return unto the Elemental Plane of origin, there to reform another vessel from the Essences of that Plane; were they slain on their own Elemental Plane, however, their energies would be dispersed for all eternity. As the Essential Life Force of the races of the Elemental Planes was formed of the Essence of the Elemental Planes, Death was not a balancing factor there, rather it was a corrupting factor. Earth was corrupted by Decay, Air was corrupted by Oblivion, Water was corrupted by Entropy and energy was corrupted by Chaos. Thus, as each Elemental Plane was corrupted by the Essence of the Negative Opposition of another Elemental Plane, then did each Elemental Plane gain dominance over another, and thus was the Balance of the Elemental Planes brought to ruin. Therefore did the Element of Fire desire to bring Chaos unto the element of Earth, and thus did Earth strive to bring Decay unto Air, and Air did seek to bring Oblivion unto Water, and Water in its turn did aspire to bring Entropy unto Fire. The Elemental Planes, once in Balance with one another, erupted into war as each Element battled for supremacy. The Formation of the Outer Planes Even as the Powers of Life were bringing form to the Prime Plane and the newly risen Elemental Races were taking shape, the Great Barrier between the Known Spheres and the Void Beyond the Spheres was being tested by the Essences and Energies that exploded out from the Primal Sphere. The Great Barrier, unable to contain the Potentiality of the Essences and Energies, shattered, and the Elemental Essences and the Energies of the Powers of Balance cascaded into the Void Beyond the Spheres. The Aether stretched, following the expanding Essences and Energies, try to fill the open Void, striving to rebuild the Great Barrier between the Known Spheres and the Void Beyond the Spheres. The expansion of the Essences and Energies was slowed and then halted as they encountered the Powers of Negation in the Void Beyond the Spheres. This caused the Elemental Essences and remaining Energies of the Powers of Balance to fall back toward the center of the Known Spheres. While rushing toward the center they met the expanding wave of Aether, attempting to reestablish the Great Barrier, head on. An explosion not unlike that which had occurred at the sundering of the Primal Sphere ensued at the edge of Reality, and the Aether, Elemental Essences and Energies of the Powers of Balance collapsed into a infinite number of individual Planes. The Powers of Negation, caught in the explosion and subsequent collapse, had their Primal Essence dispersed among the myriad numerous Planes. Thus, the Outer Planes were formed of Elemental materials, and each was dominated by one of the five Spheres: Order, Thought, Time, Energy or Entropy. Of the Astral and Ethereal Planes, and the Barriers The explosion and collapse of the Essences and Energies strained the ephemeral Aether surrounding them, and the very nature of that Aether was altered by the Possibilities present. That portion of the Aether that was without the region of the Old Barrier was transformed by the coruscating Essences and Energies, and became the Astral Plane. The reverberations of the collapse returned through the Known Spheres, and transformed the solid Aether within the region of the Old Barrier into the Ethereal Plane. The Astral Barrier formed between the Ethereal and Astral Planes, as too the Great Barrier once again formed between the Known Spheres and the Void Beyond the Spheres. On the Formation of Other Dimensions and Proto-Dimensions When the Great Barrier did once again reform around the Known Spheres, the Known Spheres did then constitute the Inner Planes and the Outer Planes. The Inner Planes were formed of the Prime Plane, the four Elemental Planes and the Ethereal Plane, each of which was contiguous with one another yet removed from one another, and surrounded in whole by the Astral Barrier. The Outer Planes were formed of the Astral Plane and within the Astral Plane were the infinite number of Outer Planes. all of which were contained within the Great Barrier. Outside the Great Barrier lay the Void Beyond the Spheres, though by this time the Void was not empty as it had been in the past. For when the Great Barrier had reformed at the Edge of Reality, various Outer Planes, Elemental Essences and Energies and fragments thereof had been left without the Great Barrier. These Outer Planes, Elemental Essences and Energies and fragments thereof, beyond the Edge of Reality, and filled with Potentiality, were drawn to each other, and over time they drew together, and the Potentiality within them grew, so that each did form its own Dimension, in imitation of the Multiverse that was within the Great Barrier. Being of the Multiverse but not within the Multiverse allowed these Dimensions to grow in ways not defined by Reality, and many of them did grow in ways alien and even inimical to the Multiverse. There were those Shards, however, that never did combine with others and thus did never live up to their Potential. These Shards were called Proto-Dimensions, for were they brought into conjunction with a developed Dimension, they might live up to their Potential. Of Magic and the Rise of the Faerie Races The Energies of the Primal Essence of the Powers of Balance that had survived the explosion at the edge of Reality had, by this point, returned to the center of the Known Spheres, and once there, they dispersed throughout the Prime Plane. And thus did the final portion of the Primal Essence of the Powers of Balance, that portion which had experienced the Beginning and the End of the Multiverse and all Spheres in between, and was the richer for it, come into correlation with that portion of the Primal Essence of the Powers of Balance that had formed the Life Force of the Prime Plane, and was of the Prime Plane, and it did also come into correlation with the evolving Life of the Prime Plane, and thus did Magic enter into the Prime Plane. For that portion of the Primal Essence of the Powers of Balance had come to know all that was of the Multiverse, from the Center out to the Edge of Reality. And thus was all Possibility engendered within that force, and that which allows all Possibilities to come to pass is Magic. And from that force did rise the Spirits of Magic, that were made of the ghosts of the shells of the beings that were the Powers of Balance. And in time, the Sentient Races that did evolve in the Prime Plane came to know these beings as Faeries, for they were not as Powers, nor Immortals, nor Elementals nor even as the Spirits of the Outer Planes, they were of the Prime Plane and of all other Spheres, for they were of Magic, and Magic was of all things that were within the realm of Possibility. By their very natures, the Faerie Races were Eternal Beings, for were their physical form to be slain, their essence would return to the whole of the force that is Magic, and that force would return the Essence of that being into the Life Stream through reincarnation. Thus were the Faerie Folk doomed to be born and reborn until the End of the Age of Creation. Of the Rise of the Denizens of the Outer Planes Just as the Primal Essence of the Powers of Balance had given rise to the Faerie Races on the Prime Plane, so too did it give rise to various and sundry species throughout the Outer Planes. These denizens, of infinite variety and scope, formed physical vessels for their existence of the Elemental materials and native energies of their respective Outer Planes, whether they were of Order, Thought, Time, Energy or Entropy. Spirits, Archons, Angels, Titans, Phoenixes, Fiends, and myriad other life forms grew forth from the stuff that made up the very Outer Planes, each animated by the merest shard of the spirit of the ghost of the shell of the Powers of Balance. By their nature, were these beings to cross into the Elemental or Prime Planes, they would form bodies of the appropriate Essences, and were these bodies to be slain on those Planes, the Primal Core of the being would return unto the Outer Plane of origin, there to reform another vessel from the Essences of that Plane; were they slain on their own Outer Plane, however, their energies would be dispersed for all eternity. On Nodes, Wormholes and Gates The passing of the Elemental Essences and the Energies of the Primal Essence of the Powers of Balance back and forth through the Multiverse created rifts, tears and holes in the fabric of the Multiverse, that all parts of the Multiverse might be connected to all other parts. Nodes were weak points between two points in the Multiverse that, with some use of Magic, would bring the two disparate points into conjunction, allowing travel one way or both ways. Wormholes were Nodes that naturally allowed travel one way; these were usually associated with the transfer of Elemental or Planar energies or matter. Gates were Nodes that naturally allowed travel both ways. On the Forming of the Sphere of Death The Powers of Negation, caught in the explosion and collapse between the Essences and Energies and the expanding Aether, were stripped of the greater balance of their Primal Essence and dispersed among the uncountable Entropic Outer Planes. So powerful and terrible was the experience that most lost all knowledge of their prior existence as Powers of Negation; they knew only that they were formed of the energies of Entropy, and that they despised all that was of Creation. There were those who were of Chaos, that would change all that was, that no one thing would be like unto the other, and all that was would deny all else, such that all would be brought into nothingness. There were those who were of Decay, that would bring rot into all things, and feed that which remained unto the rot, until the rot ate of itself, such that all would be brought into nothingness. There were those who were of Oblivion, that would turn all that was upon itself, and then turn again until it was not, and yet again until it was and was not, until all that was would be without and within, such that all would be brought into nothingness. And there were those who were of Entropy, that would cause all things to consume of each other, then to consume of themselves, and then be consumed by those of Entropy, and thence again those of Entropy would consume even themselves, such that all would be brought into nothingness. And these entities that were formed of the shells of the Powers of Negation were drawn unto each other, and the energies of the Sphere of Death, and they did form Alliances that they would bring all of Creation into nothingness. And these entities were the first Immortals Of the Removal of the Powers of Creation from the Multiverse Time passed until it was one billion years before the crowning of the Emperor of Thyatis. Life had arisen and sentient races had evolved on the Prime Plane. The Elemental Planes were fraught with battle and war, which had slowly spread to the Prime Plane through various Nodes, Wormholes and Gates. The Denizens of the Outer Planes were drawn to the Prime Plane as well, for it contained energies that they did desire and lust after. And too, even the Entropic Immortals, the last shadowy remnants of the Powers of Negation, eventually did travel unto the Prime Plane, and they did begin to work their horrid magics upon it, that they might undo all that had been wrought. And the Powers of Creation gazed upon all that was, and knew that their time had passed, for they knew that should they confront even the ghosts of the shells of the Powers of Negation, the Immortals of Death, all that had been made would be undone in the battle that would follow. And thus they removed themselves from the Multiverse, all except a few from each Sphere. Those that did remove themselves from the Multiverse traversed through the Great Barrier and did come unto another Dimension, and within that Dimension they did create for themselves a new realm, that they might live in peace and harmony. And that none may follow them that they did not will it, they did take up a Proto-Dimension, and from it they did form the Vortex, and they did place it at the one entrance to their Sanctuary, that they might remain undisturbed until the End of the Age of Creation. And those Powers of Creation that did remain in the Multiverse did disperse their Primal Essences into the Multiverse, that the aspect of Life throughout would be reinforced. And the ghosts of the shells of the Powers of Creation that did disperse their Primal Essences into the Multiverse did become the first Immortals of the Spheres of Life, that they might guard Creation from the despite of the Immortals of Death. On the Forming of the Immortal Hierarchy And the sum of the Immortals of the Spheres of Life was twice that of the Immortals of the Sphere of Death. And the Immortals of the Spheres of Life did summon the Immortals of the Sphere of Death unto the Center of the Multiverse, where once stood the Primal Sphere. And there at the Center of the Multiverse did the Immortals of the Spheres of Life enforce upon the Immortals of the Sphere of Death the Balance of the Multiverse, dictated by the One Law of the Immortals. The One Law of the Immortals was thus: On the Prime Plane, Direct Action Against Mortals is Forbidden. Debate ensued, of course, as the Immortals of the Sphere of Death were not to stand for the dictation of the Immortals of the Spheres of Life. And the Immortals of the Spheres of Life gave ground, as theyknew they would, and did form with the Immortals of the Sphere of Death other rules and guides by which the One Rule might be rescinded. And the Hierarchy of the Immortals was initially founded for that one purpose, the interpretation, preservation and molding of the One Law. And then did the Immortals retire unto the Outer Planes, for they were the one place that they might gather in their forces and powers without breaking the One Law, and without the entanglements of the Primal Conflicts of the Elemental Planes. And the Immortals of the Spheres of Life were gladdened, for they knew that the Purpose of the Multiverse was assured. For the Multiverse had been created that it might give rise to more Powers of Creation, for such might occur only in the Potentiality of the Multiverse. For at the End of the Reign of Creation, the Immortals of the Sphere of Entropy would rise again to regain their birthright, the might of the Sphere of Negation, and they would battle the Powers of the Sphere of Creation for the rule of the next Age... and should the Spheres of Life have given rise to more Powers of Creation, the Balance of the Universe might turn once and for all... for Life. Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #68 **************************** Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:35:58 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #69 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, May 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 069 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 14:21:08 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-01 02:59:01 EDT, Ryan writes: ><<... to play AD$D you need at least 3 books and no player can build a castle, or have an army... >> >Now, now... Everyone gets to play with their favorite toys! No reason to resort to the offending $-thing. :) >Bruce Heard Ok... I'll try to avoid to say T$R.... Ps: I send the last mail before reading this one, And I dind't knew than you are so offended... - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 13:04:23 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics - T$R / AD$D TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-30 06:49:25 EDT, Sebastian Quiles writes: ><< saw somes of the new products of T$R in somes shops, all for AD$D, >> >Having a bad day, Mister $ebastian Quile$? >Bruce Heard I use this symbols since T$R stop editing OD&D (the *FIRST* RPG in all the world), with this they proove be a compagny not interested in Role Playing, only in Marketing (An odious comparation: MicroSoft)... and I HATE AD$D because you have books like "The complete Bags HandBook" or "9th levels FightersClerics (LN) Dwarven Book" reaching a level of comercial usefulless products... (so I call this AD$D)... PS: I was surpised when I knew than T$R published an complete free campaing (SC) in the Web... Excuse moi si je t'ais mis en cole`re... - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 13:32:32 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] History (was Traladaran Language) Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >PS: I don't know how things work in America (North, South and Central :), but here in Europe national rivalries can be very strong, due to a longer history or wars and the like. Local pride is often very strong too, and my Here in South America you have somes rivalities too.... Barzil hate us (Argentinians) because we allways won in football (the right one, the soccer) , Bolivia hate Peru because they stole the seasides territories, Argentina have a LOT of territorials conflict with Chile (they are a very Thin country and they want to expand to the east) but we haven't went to war. Ecuador and Peru have finished a war last year... and generaly all the LatinAmerica don't simpatize with the Argentinians peoples (I think it is for 2 reaseons, the first is we are more European (or minus(sp?) LatinAmerican) because at least a 70% of the populaticons becomes from the Europeans Migrations in 1900. And second because we are pedantes (something like self-goodtalkers)) - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 13:13:14 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >Two of the campaigns I'm involved with (the One I DM and the one I play a Minrothaddan MU in) use the Cyclopedia rules, plus we add all the neat quirks of applicable Gazetters and even add a few "house rules" gleaned from a number of sources (for example, we use the Comliness Stat, which was from Unearthed Arcana, 1st Ed(?I think) AD&D) WWe also use a MD&D, we use a lot of simples littles rules... somes from AD$D, somes from RQ or somes else improved or modified by us... >Here's a question I'd like to ask: How do others on this list deal with "Death". IMC I give each player 'negative' hit points equal in value to their Constitution. Then, whenever a PC gets hit to zero or less, they will loose one hp per round until they die (at neg Constitution) or someone can stablize them and bring them back up to at least one hp (via magic or bandaging, or whatever). >We to have the "negatives points" but we use only 10 (like AD$D) and a heal of any kind bring the injured to 0 but needs at least 1 hour to bring up.. other rules we changed: *) War machine... a lot of things and I think it is not complete yet *) The Weapon Mastery, It is too sauvage... you won a +1 to touch for each Mastery Level, and +1 for 2 weapon level (rounded down) *) I want to clasify the spells by spheres and makes somes rules for clerics (and immortals) of each Sphere... - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:59:01 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] OD&D or Modified So, from what i've heard here, nobody actually plays OD&D with only core rules.... Strange how the most famous and most sold RPG in the world is not played as it was designed.. But maybe that's its greatest strength: it can be easily changed or adapted to the DMs' and players' wishes! I think what we love of D&D is its great flexibility... and above all, the setting. So, long live Mystara! DM "Crownguard thou art, and Glantri shalt be" Excerpt from the play "McGregor", by William Shockspear ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:09:53 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demographics - T$R / AD$D In a message dated 97-05-05 03:23:03 EDT, Sebastian Quiles writes: << saw somes of the new products of T$R in somes shops, all for AD$D, >> then later . . . << I use this symbols since T$R stop editing OD&D (the *FIRST* RPG in all the world), with this they proove be a compagny not interested in Role Playing, only in Marketing (An odious comparation: MicroSoft)... and I HATE AD$D because you have books like "The complete Bags HandBook" or "9th levels FightersClerics (LN) Dwarven Book" reaching a level of comercial usefulless products... (so I call this AD$D)... >> Whatever you may think of TSR as a corporation and the products of D&D and AD&D, when you use the juvenile "T$R" or "AD$D", you offend people who work for TSR and make their living creating those products, and also those who are just sick and tired of TSR bashing. Whenever I see a post with "T$R" in the subject banner, I tend to ignore it (except this one I guess :). And when I do read it, I rarely take what the poster is saying seriously. TSR staffers, like Bruce, will NOT be sympathetic to your message whatsoever. It's like asking Bill Gates to make software programs that *you* would like to use, after calling him all sorts of horrible names and insulting the company he built. He's not going to listen. If you have ideas you'd like to share with TSR and the gaming community, those who count won't listen to you if you use the term "T$R". The only people who will listen are the juvenile anti-TSR camp, which annoys the rest of us. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 13:14:28 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex At 03.36 02/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 2 May 1997, DM wrote: >>i was basing my assumption on the fact that the Blackmoorians developed their futuristic culture in only 2000 years, and they didn't wield magic. >Whoa! The Blackmoorians _didn't_ wield magic??? Sorry Cthulhu, i don't own any single ref book about Blackmoor and so i was speaking only basing myself on what it's written in WotI and Gaz13, and there doesn't mention anything about the magical abilities of the Blackmoorians. Please, don't drive me insane with your dreams, ok? :) >As for developing their culture (which, IMO, wasn't nearly as 'futuristic' as it has sometimes been implied to be in the past), it was due to outside interference- namely, the crash landing of an alien spaceship with advanced technology. Technology which was subsequently confiscated and utilized (and often utilized poorly) by the people of the Blackmoor region. I thought that the Blackmoorians were already on the path to nuclear energy, and that the Beagle incident only speeded up the process of some 2-3 centuries. Anyway, i think they were far more advanced than the thyatians (whose culture dates back to 1000 BC) are now, so do you see my point? IMO the Blackmoorians already had some technical basis they relied on to build their machines, maybe much like the 2nd Industrial Revolution countries (i imagined them this way), and if they attained such a high technical culture in 2000 years, why shouldn't the Carnifex too? But there is another interesting speculation: what if the oards were responsible for the Blackmoorians techincal discoveries? What if they were behind the exploitation of the Beagle's atomic energy? Sort of CM6 staged in Mystara... >>So why cannot the Carnifex have evolved from dumb carnosaurs with the magical help of Ka into their modern race in only 2000 years too? Remember they were master magic users and this could count for their rapid evolution... i think they must not be located to far in time cause we must remain in the order of thousand years, not million, in order not to overcomplicate too many things, too... >They could, I suppose, though I agree with Mystaros (I'm paraphrasing, and maybe badly, here), when he says that the Immortals don't or shouldn't interfere that much with the natural progression of things on the Prime Plane, for fear of throwing off the balance there. Err... sorry but, what about the creation of elves? Quote from Mystaros': "they originated from Yuan-ti who were purged of their serpentine heritage from Ordana and given to the fairy folk to be educated.." So, if this is not direct intervention.... And i could quote many other things.. Anyway, what i was saying is that maybe Ka helped them a bit by infusing some of the dinos with self-awareness, with the spark of intelligence. Then they evolved naturally and began to use their limbs to manufacture objects. Then, only the species with the greatest intelligence and dexterity evolved to become the Carnifex race (a span of let's say 2000 years), which soon discovered how to wield magic and advanced at an incredible high speed, improving their species with cloning attempts (that's why i said that magic helped them to evolve that fast: they modified themselves magically to exploit the energies of nature and the magics of multiverse more effectively, maybe even traveling throughout time?), and this in only 1000 years span Satisfied? DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:32:09 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: PC Death (was Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D?) in the 13 years that I have played over 300 chracters have been made. Most are in limbo with friends gone or moved away. Some have just finished their quest and settled down.(who wants adventure for his whold life) Many "settled" down characters find a reason to leave there homes and then back on to another quest. Most of the 300 characters that have been made are dead. I have killed a lot PCs in my time. Now I have been known give a PC over 3 times as many hitpoints when fighting a great villain, or even over looked a lucky shot when the campaign was at climax or every player in it was really enjoying the adventure campaign, and I have been known to let a PC who had died durning a battle and no one could have saved him durning it; "be on his last breath" just after the fight. Death is death. I just got done killing a character a few days ago because they thought it would be cool to venture in to Thar as 2nd lever characters. I am not out to kill them but life and death are a part of the game. last night I put a players best character in a state of permanent sleep. The PC is now in the corner of an evil mages tower. (the mage and the PC were childhood friends. the PC a somewhat good hearted ranger told the mage how he felt.) It is just what would of happened. I dint want to stop the campaign, maybe later the mage will find (or some other NPC) a reason to free him. I would rather let a great character go than let the campaign have unrealities. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:32:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex & Mystaros Erm, I MEANT for the title to be "Carnifex and Time". I really don't know why I put my name there... :) Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:31:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex & Mystaros In a message dated 97-05-05 07:19:06 EDT, you write: << Err... sorry but, what about the creation of elves? Quote from Mystaros': "they originated from Yuan-ti who were purged of their serpentine heritage from Ordana and given to the fairy folk to be educated.." So, if this is not direct intervention.... And i could quote many other things.. >> Well ceratinly, as I've always TRIED to emphasise (I can be a bit overbearing at times about Cultures and History, it's my speciality), "Whatever works for YOUR OWN campaign is RIGHT". So, if you want to go with a truncated timeline, more power to you. BUT... I feel that a more "realistic" time frame gives a campaign world more depth and majesty... as might be seen from my earlier posts on the Multiversal Genesis and the Dimension of Nightmares, I tend to take a swweping vista of History Heck, the war between the Entities from the Void Between the Stars and the immortals lasted for some 200,000,000 years! Whole Galaxies disappeared in the blink of an eye! It spanned the entire lenght and breadth of the Multiverse! Now THATS what I call a sweeping vista! What I'm saying basically is that I like to put an emphasisless on the "Gee whiz! Magic!" and more on the "Majesty" side of Sword and Sorcery. Would Conan's Hyborean Age have been as interesting if Howard hadn't developed his extensive History that spanned tens of thousands of years from the Age of the Seven Kingdoms to our "own"? I think the truncation of ages of history is part of the "Comic Book" nature of gaming. Take FR for instance. Think about all the things that happened to the Realms in the time since it was introduced... one massive, Realms spanning event after another in what, oh, 20 years maybe? If even a tenth of what happened in the Realms during that period had happened to the RW, there would not have been anything LEFT afterwards. We are living in times where technology, travel and communication HAVE truncated the vista of histroy; after all, the USSR, the Berlin Wall, the Gulf War, etc. have all happened on TV, and most of these issues were resolved in time for the "Wrap Up at 11!". Compare the pace of history during the Age of the "American West"; even with the Pony Express, you were still talking DAYS for a letter to get across the continent. In the Middle Ages, a trip to the nearest city might take WEEKS. In the Stone Age, well, rememeber, our ancestors spend several 100,000 years at a time with absolutely NO change in their tools! And we could wee buy the "New and Improved" version before we've paid the bill on the old. So truncation of historical development I feel is an outgrowth of the modern concept of historical development. Remember, when dealing with Mystara, in the "Modern" era (11th c. AC), the "time frame" vis a vis the RW is somewhere between the 12th and 16th centuries (lower even, in some places). Things don't change as quickly then as they do now, even with magic (remember the 40 Years War in Glantri?). And things in the Age of the Saruials would change even slower, one would think, based on the conception of time of the Saurials vs time of the Mammals... Also, as regards the Immortal Intervention: Yes, it happens. But there are Rules, ESPECIALLY after the "Carnifex Affair". Basically, an Immortal may, with permission from the Council of Mystara, engender a new sentient species and even shelter it and nuture it TO AN EXTENT. The Elves, for example, were not "given" dominance by Ordana once they were released; they were brought up to the level that they MIGHT HAVE ATTAINED had they evolved on their own in their context (In the hisotry I will post soon, you will see that they were brought from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age, but only as that would maintain a Balance). With the Carnifex, there was no Balance, as they were the first Sentient Species on Mystara; thus, Ka had to let them develop on their OWN after he created them. Certainly, he could inspire them, but the nature of the Carnifex was that they were an Experiement to see how successful Sentient Life could be on Mystara (they weren't the first Sentience to arise in the Prime Plane, just the first on Mystara). So by the nature of the Experiement, Ka would not bring them to an advanced level in mere millennia... at least, that is my take on it... Mystaros BTW, the Oards, IMC, come from another Dimension, and are a relatively new development in the Multiverse... so new that they were not involved in Blackmoor, but they were involved in the WotI... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:21:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World question On Thu, 1 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-01 21:35:43 EDT, you write: ><< During the Week of No Magic, when the sun in the Hollow World went out, wwouldn't the Burrowers have been freed from the Spell of Preservation? It is mentioned (more than once) that the sun powers the spell that keeps them frozen. >> >Ohmigod! (er, "ohmiimmortals"?) I never thought of that! If I remember correctly, the Week of No Magic dispelled ALL MAGIC, including Immortal-level spells! If so, then yes! Bye-bye Spell of Preservation, heeelllllooo Burrowers! >The Spell of Oblivion would have been temporarily dispelled too, but I don't see the effects of this being all that great. >Delarius Well, this is not a big deal at all. As you say above, the Week of No Magic dispelled ALL MAGIC, so what are the burrowers going to do. After all, aren't they magical creatures that would tend to feel "drained" by the loss of magical energy. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:17:50 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex & Mystaros Hi! >the Multiversal Genesis and the Dimension of Nightmares Great, great, great work, I liked it a lot! Please keep up with such posts, maybe expand these two posts! If I could help you somehow, just tell me! Maybe we could really end up with a Mystara Genesis-Book! Maybe with some short stories, and the like! Unfortunatly I´m not a native english speaker, and even in german I´m not a good writer, but I can draw a little bit, but certainly way too less to be considered a good draw. BTW should I try to draw some scene from the almanac, to have some pictures in it? Which one? (Once again, I´m not a ´good drawer´) I´ve also some thoughts on the mythology of Mystara, which I will post to the list, if I have enough time. >What I'm saying basically is that I like to put an emphasisless on the "Gee whiz! Magic!" and more on the "Majesty" side of Sword and Sorcery. Would Conan's Hyborean Age have been as interesting if Howard hadn't developed his extensive History that spanned tens of thousands of years from the Age of the Seven Kingdoms to our "own"?I´m on your side, that´s just my way of thinking! >Take FR for instance. Think about >all the things that happened to the Realms in the time since it was introduced... one massive, Realms spanning event after another in what, oh, 20 years maybe? If even a tenth of what happened in the Realms during that period had happened to the RW, there would not have been anything LEFT afterwards. But that´s also the problem with Mystara, especially with the Immortals. Most of the now existing Immortals are not older than .. what? 500 years? So in my mythology there is a waxing and waning of the overall immortal power (also the magical energy), only the most powerful and thoughtful immortal survive this unharmed, others either completly fade away, or can just barely survive, through the lose of power the loose many (if not all) memories and their immortal status. They have again to acceive Immortality, with some benefits, as they are something like ´fated´ to become immortal again. (So it´s easier for them to attain IM than for mere mortals.) If they again become immortal, they will again get back most of their former memories. And now something completly different (ad PC´s Death) >I would rather let a great character go than let the campaign have unrealities. Yeessss, another one at my side ;-) AND ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST! (PC) ;-) *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:52:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Ryan Andrew Nestler Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or ModifiedD&D? On Fri, 2 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >On Fri, 2 May 1997 DM wrote: III wonder who plays nowadays with the OD&D system unmodified (that's to say, using only the basic rules given in the old blue-red-black etc boxes) and who uses Rules Cyclopaedia. Personally i use OD&D modified by the General Skills introducted with Gazetteers and other personal rules, so i don't really qualify as an OD&D player. Who does here? Who uses the old 1 face sheet given in the Basic Set?? >>Just my ramblings today... >Like you, I use a mixture of original D&D rules, Gazetteers, PC series rules and stuff of my own creation or adapted from other games. >Thorf. Likewise, i also use the boxed rules that came out in the 1980s, as well as some gazeteer stuff, a bit of PC series stuff (Night Howlers), and the comeliness statistic (sometimes.) Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:54:09 -0500 From: "George E. Hrabovsky" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Cthulhu and D&D R'lyeh is the island of Cthulhu and is not, the last time I checked (hehheheheheheh) lizard-like. On the other hand all one has to do is look at the D'Amberville estate, or the lands of New Averiogne to see the hand of Clark Ashton Smith. Or perhaps read again the description of the Brain Collector... George - ---------- >From: DM >To: mystara-l@lists.io.com >Subject: [Mystara] Cthulhu and D&D >Date: Wednesday, April 30, 1997 5:01 AM >And talking about Cthulhu and R'lyeh and the other nasty lizardlike deities and their followers, has any of you ever had the impression that the >Kopru race is the closest thing to a small baby Cthulhu? Personally, i was >very intrigued by them, but unfortunately PC3 Sea People doesn't deal with >their history as well as i thought and so their culture (especially their presence on the Isle of Dread as was portrayed in X1) is left a bit mysterious and undeveloped. Has any of you ever thought of them as the D&D >Spawn of Cthulhu, which might prove the fact that the Evil Old Ones are among us (and yes, Cthulhudrew: the stars are right! They couldn't be more >right than now...*shudder with pleasure*) >DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 18:20:17 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Blackmoor (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Mon, 5 May 1997, DM wrote: >Sorry Cthulhu, i don't own any single ref book about Blackmoor and so i was speaking only basing myself on what it's written in WotI and Gaz13, and there doesn't mention anything about the magical abilities of the Blackmoorians. Please, don't drive me insane with your dreams, ok? :) No problem. I didn't mean to come off quite so explosively. When you've been living under the ocean for millenia, you tend to forget your etiquette. :) >I thought that the Blackmoorians were already on the path to nuclear energy, and that the Beagle incident only speeded up the process of some 2-3 centuries. Not even close, actually. In the DA series, the Blackmoorians have just broken off from the Thonian Empire some couple of years prior to the events in DA1. They are still very much a feudal (arguably near-Renaissance) culture. The University of Blackmoor has just recently been completed, and its aim is to study the realms of science (which really peeves off the wizards, hence their formation of the Wizard's Cabal, a subversive organization). While they study science, the level of technology is not significantly (in fact, IMO, far less so) greater than that of the current day Known World. The Beagle crashed south of Blackmoor some five years prior to DA1, and it is from there that the technology spreads- first to the Froggies (via "Saint" Stephen Rockwell, the security officer of the Beagle), and to the Sand People (via raids on the "City of the Gods"). Then it begins to permeate Blackmoor society, following events in DA3- City of the Gods. >Anyway, i think they were far more advanced than the thyatians (whose culture dates back to 1000 BC) are now, so do you see my point? IMO the Blackmoorians already had some technical basis they relied on to build their machines, maybe much like the 2nd Industrial Revolution countries (i imagined them this way), and if they attained such a high technical culture in 2000 years, why shouldn't the Carnifex too? See above for my arguments on this. There is nothing in the DA series of modules to suggest that, outside of the City of the Gods and possibly among the Egg of Coot, there is any sort of technology beyond what we see in the Known World/Mystara today. In fact, IMO, due to the less significant impact of magic and magic users, I would argue that the people/society of the time of Blackmoor were less "advanced" than the nations of Mystara today, as a whole. If not for the appearance of the Beagle, I think the Blackmoor society and it's surrounding areas (notably the Thonian Empire and the Duchy of Ten) would have turned out rather similar to the nations of Mystara today. From that point, they would likely progress to a more industrial era (likely a mixture of tech and magic), but it would not have happened nearly so quickly if the Beagle hadn't crash landed. >Err... sorry but, what about the creation of elves? Quote from Mystaros': "they originated from Yuan-ti who were purged of their serpentine heritage from Ordana and given to the fairy folk to be educated.." So, if this is not direct intervention.... And i could quote many other things.. For one thing, that is Mystaros' own campaign, and is certainly not canon, but since my point was that I agreed with him on the issue of Immortals not interfering too much (which, as I noted, is not a direct quote, and may be a misrepresentation), I take your point. At any rate, my own thoughts are that the Immortals didn't (or wouldn't) directly interefere with the progress of the evolution of a species- as you suggested with the Carnifex. While they might assist, and sometimes create, new species, I don't think they would do anything that would hasten the natural progression... I don't think that makes my point any clearer. Try this- using Mystaros' example, the Immortals purge some Yuan-Ti of their serpentine characteristics, creating a new species. They don't purge _all_ of them, just _some_. The other Yuan-Ti are left to their own natural evolution, as are the elves, once created. They haven't directly interfered with the evolution of the Yuan-Ti as a race; they still exist, and can progress on their own. All they have done is create a new species, that can likewise evolve on their own, independently of the Yuan-Ti. Interference? Sure. But I don't see it as being nearly as blatant a crime as deliberately hastening the progress of a species' natural evolution, and guiding them towards a certain goal- in the Carnifex' case, the development of a culture based on the use and exploitation of magic. It's a delicate issue, but... I don't know. It might help if you clarified precisely how you figured Ka would help the Carnifex' evolution. >Anyway, what i was saying is that maybe Ka helped them a bit by infusing some of the dinos with self-awareness, with the spark of intelligence. Then they evolved naturally and began to use their limbs to manufacture objects. Then, only the species with the greatest intelligence and dexterity evolved to become the Carnifex race (a span of let's say 2000 years), which soon discovered how to wield magic and advanced at an incredible high speed, improving their species with cloning attempts (that's why i said that magic helped them to evolve that fast: they modified themselves magically to exploit the energies of nature and the magics of multiverse more effectively, maybe even traveling throughout time?), and this in only 1000 years span Satisfied? Ask and ye shall recieve. :) Actually, though, I still don't like it, on personal grounds. I'm not arguing that it's not at all possible that their evolution happened in this span of time, just that I find it very unlikely. Evolution can happen quickly- insects, birds, even a bunch of lizards they placed on some islands in the Pacific eleven years ago (there was an article on it yesterday). All of these things have very short lifespans, however, and hence mutation and evolution are going to happen in a very short time- generations of these shorter lived lifeforms can appear and disappear within say, one of our own generations. Are you arguing that the Carnifex are short lived species? Anyway, I just don't see magic use as being that major a factor in evolution. I don't see it as being something that can influence the development of intelligence or consciousness, but rather as a byproduct of such evolution; ie, once you've attained a certain level of awareness, you can consciously manipulate the energy fields that produce magic, but without that consciousness & intellect, the best you can hope for is some sort of natural evolutionary ability (the Displacer Beast's "cloaking device" for instance), or something to that effect. Bottom line: I don't think 2000 years is enough time for them to evolve like that. Give the Carnifex longer than 2000 years to go from the tool-using, spark of intellect creatures to the potentially magic wielding creatures, and I'll probably give you the 1000 years or so to the Powerful Magic Using Carnifex. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:07:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Carnifex & Mystaros In a message dated 97-05-05 21:01:39 EDT, you write: <> Danke, danke, danke sehr, Herr Balazs. <> THAT would be incredibly interesting! I would love to read all the different origin stories that people have come up with over the years, since there are so many different ways to interpret the development of Mystara and it's cultures. Everything from the Mystaran "Big Bang" to the Last Days even... that would be very cool. << Take FR for instance. Think about all the things that happened to the Realms in the time since it was introduced... one massive, Realms spanning event after another in what, oh, 20 years maybe? If even a tenth of what happened in the Realms during that period had happened to the RW, there would not have been anything LEFT afterwards. But that´s also the problem with Mystara, especially with the Immortals. Most of the now existing Immortals are not older than .. what? 500 years? So in my mythology there is a waxing and waning of the overall immortal power (also the magical energy), only the most powerful and thoughtful immortal survive this unharmed, others either completly fade away, or can just barely survive, through the lose of power the loose many (if not all) memories and their immortal status. They have again to acceive Immortality, with some benefits, as they are something like ´fated´ to become immortal again. (So it´s easier for them to attain IM than for mere mortals.) If they again become immortal, they will again get back most of their former memories. >> This was much along my own way of thinking, that there have been eras in which whole generations of Immortals have been wiped out (like the Great War of the Entities from the Void Between the Stars). An interesting fact is that the Sphere of Time has so many vagaries... for example, Khoronus (who was apparently his own sponsor) was the sponsor of Protius, who upon achieving Immortality travelled back in time to his own era, millions of years before the rise of Humans, yet, it states in Khoronus' bio that "... no Immortals of the Sphere of Time were known to the men of Blackmoor". Where then was Protius? Hmmm.. avoiding Blackmoor perhaps? Then again, Protius appears to be the oldest Immortal of Time, while all other SPheres have Immortals who are so old that they do not REMEMBER any existence as a mortal being (Valerias, Ixion, Korotiku, Odin, Hel and Thanatos, all of whom in my mythology were the "ghosts of the shells of the Powers" of the various spheres, and are the few Immortals left from that time, with little memory of the long, long past... and there are, apparently no Immortals of the Sphere of Time from that era (Verthandi perhaps?). Anyway, now I am rambling. I've been writing too much today... :) Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 21:16:14 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Egg of Coot >There is nothing in the DA series of >modules to suggest that, outside of the City of the Gods and possibly among the Egg of Coot, there is any sort of technology beyond what we see in the Known World/Mystara today. Just out of curiosity, how much is known about the Egg of Coot? I have the four Blackmoor adventures, but it doesn't say much about this mysterous being. Has anyone done any work on him/her/it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:11:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Blackmoor (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-06 01:02:54 EDT, you write: << At any rate, my own thoughts are that the Immortals didn't (or wouldn't) directly interefere with the progress of the evolution of a species- as you suggested with the Carnifex. While they might assist, and sometimes create, new species, I don't think they would do anything that would hasten the natural progression... I don't think that makes my point any clearer. Try this- using Mystaros' example, the Immortals purge some Yuan-Ti of their serpentine characteristics, creating a new species. They don't purge _all_ of them, just _some_. The other Yuan-Ti are left to their own natural evolution, as are the elves, once created. They haven't directly interfered with the evolution of the Yuan-Ti as a race; they still exist, and can progress on their own. All they have done is create a new species, that can likewise evolve on their own, independently of the Yuan-Ti. Interference? Sure. But I don't see it as being nearly as blatant a crime as deliberately hastening the progress of a species' natural evolution, and guiding them towards a certain goal- in the Carnifex' case, the development of a culture based on the use and exploitation of magic. Perfect. I couldn't have said it better myself. And thanks for pointing out that the bit about the Yuan-Ti and Elves was not Canon. I guess I have to emphasize just what is from my campaign and what it Canon more clearly... Of course, just such a case as DM points out could easily and usually happen on the Outer Planes... but not generally in the Prime Plane, and almost never on Mystara, considering it's position in the Multiverse... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:19:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Egg of Coot In a message dated 97-05-06 01:13:19 EDT, you write: << Just out of curiosity, how much is known about the Egg of Coot? I have the four Blackmoor adventures, but it doesn't say much about this mysterous being. Has anyone done any work on him/her/it? >> I've been putting together my History of Mystara from 10,000 BC to the Great Rain of Fire (25+ pages and counting, possibly ready tomorrow), and there is some detail on the Egg of Coot hidden in the various sections, when you read between the lines... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 22:43:47 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Egg of Coot At 09:16 PM 5/5/97 -0700, S.B. Wilson wrote: TTThere is nothing in the DA series of >>modules to suggest that, outside of the City of the Gods and possibly among the Egg of Coot, there is any sort of technology beyond what we see in the Known World/Mystara today. >Just out of curiosity, how much is known about the Egg of Coot? I have the four Blackmoor adventures, but it doesn't say much about this mysterous being. Has anyone done any work on him/her/it? There isn't much info on it. EGG of Coot, by the way, is named after E. Gary Gygax, and portrayed rather nastily (and humorously) by Dave Arneson (creator of Blackmoor and co-creator of D&D) in the First Fantasy Campaign, which is a Judges Guild product on Blackmoor long before it was intended as part of the D&D world (later named Mystara). / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:13:26 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara]Ierendi Hey everyone! I found and bought GAZ4 last weekend, and I just finished reading through it. My initial impression is that it really isn't nearly as bad as some people seem to think. I liked most of it, although it could have been more thorough. I have one question though: on the map in GAZ4, the keeps on the islands do not have names. In the PC2or3, The Sea People, the northernmost keeps on Ierendi and Safari Islands are both called North Keep. The Rules Cyclopedia supports the name on Safari Island. Is another name given for the north keep on Ierendi Island in any other accessory (perhaps the Trail Maps)? Thank you very much for helping me out here. Patrick ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #69 **************************** Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:25:39 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #70 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ff1c49f8a717b6cc7669b7d4b03ee12d mystara-digest Wednesday, May 7 1997 Volume 02 : Number 070 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 23:51:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Egg of Coot On Tue, 6 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >I've been putting together my History of Mystara from 10,000 BC to the Great Rain of Fire (25+ pages and counting, possibly ready tomorrow), and there is some detail on the Egg of Coot hidden in the various sections, when you read between the lines... If you'd like (and I think someone has it on their homepage- Shawn Stanley, maybe?), I did a writeup on the Blackmoor timeline as given in the DA series a while back. I've still got a copy at home, but it should be in one of the digests, or, like I said, on someone's homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 00:11:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Tidbits about the Thanegioth Archipelago While going over some old digests tonight, I discovered an ASCII map of the T- Archipelago by Daniel Boese, based off of info in XSolo 1- Lathan's Gold. I noticed some stuff I hadn't when I originally looked at the module- Tidbit #1: We all know there are Aranea on the Isle of Dawn, but how about on Spider Isle? It's located somewhat to the Northwest of the Isle of Dawn, and houses the lost Temple of Araknee. Hmm... Arachne-Prime, anyone? Tidbit #2: Skeleton Key to the Southwest of Spider Isle is the battlesite of the legendary Aquapopulous war, a battle between men and mermen. On the Mermen side, we have (IMO) the Empire of Twaelar. Who is on the human side? Probably Tanagoro men (like those found on the Isle of Dawn), but when did this battle occur? And where did the Tanagoro who populate the T.A. come from? Anyway, just thought I'd mention it... :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:20:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara]Ierendi In a message dated 97-05-06 02:34:32 EDT, you write: << In the PC2or3, The Sea People, the northernmost keeps on Ierendi and Safari Islands are both called North Keep. The Rules Cyclopedia supports the name on Safari Island. Is another name given for the north keep on Ierendi Island in any other accessory (perhaps the Trail Maps)? Thank you very much for helping me out here. >> Odd, my copy of the RC has the name "North Tower" for the keep on Safari Island, while it has "North Keep" on Ierendi Island. I'd go with that, as that is what it also is on the Trail Map... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:27:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] History of Blackmoor In a message dated 97-05-06 03:31:33 EDT, you write: << If you'd like (and I think someone has it on their homepage- Shawn Stanley, maybe?), I did a writeup on the Blackmoor timeline as given in the DA series a while back. I've still got a copy at home, but it should be in one of the digests, or, like I said, on someone's homepage. >> Thanks Drew, but this isn't just the DA series material on Blackmoor, this is my own History of Mystara from 10,000 BC through 3000 BC, from the Rise of the Human Races to the Great Rain of Fire. It's something like nearly 30 pages of history in a story format. It also traces the "Technomantic" version of Blackmoor, in which there was a thousand years of development of technology and magic between the founding of Blackmoor and the GRoF... as it's rather long, I don't think I should post it as a letter (90,000+ KB's in TXT format). Anyone interested please email me and I'll send it out attached later... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:52:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Yuan-Ti Mystaros@aol.com pontificated: >Perfect. I couldn't have said it better myself. And thanks for pointing out that the bit about the Yuan-Ti and Elves was not Canon. I guess I have to emphasize just what is from my campaign and what it Canon more clearly... What are Yuan-Ti? I think I see them in AD&D material before, but don't remember much about them. Can some one fill me in. And is there any particular reason it name sound Chineseish? John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:56:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Egg of Coot David 'Azure' Leland pontificated: >There isn't much info on it. EGG of Coot, by the way, is named after E. Gary Gygax, and portrayed rather nastily (and humorously) by Dave Arneson Actually, just a couple of days ago, someone who seems to know what he is talking about in the dnd newsgroup say EGG of Coot is not named after Gygax, rather some gamer in Minnesota. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 17:07:32 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Egg of Coot Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Tue, 6 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >>I've been putting together my History of Mystara from 10,000 BC to the Great Rain of Fire (25+ pages and counting, possibly ready tomorrow), and there is some detail on the Egg of Coot hidden in the various sections, when you read between the lines... >If you'd like (and I think someone has it on their homepage- Shawn Stanley, maybe?), I did a writeup on the Blackmoor timeline as given in the DA series a while back. I've still got a copy at home, but it should be in one of the digests, or, like I said, on someone's homepage. Can you post it again, Cthulhudrew? It sounds really intresting. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 12:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Yuan-Ti In a message dated 97-05-06 10:34:41 EDT, you write: << What are Yuan-Ti? I think I see them in AD&D material before, but don't remember much about them. Can some one fill me in. And is there any particular reason it name sound Chineseish? John Yu >> The Yuan-Ti are a race of humans with snake attributes. The Purebloods pass for human 80% of the time, and they only have slight differences from normal humans, such as snake eyes, a forked tongue, small fangs, some scales, etc. Halfbreeds are half human half snake, say snake head with flexible torso, or totally scales instead of skin or no legs, only snake tail, etc. The Abominations are either all snake or half the time they have either a human head or human arms, and are very large. The Yuan-Ti are unuversally a vile race, highly intelligent and thoroughly evil. In my campaign they are one of the servitor races of the Serpentines, the Ancient Enemy of Man (a la King Kull and Conan). They were the core of the Serpentine Empire ages ago, as the Serpentines themselves had started degenerating. IIRC, the Yuan-Ti were actually an oriental culture or race or kingdom at one time, so the name may not have been the best choice, but it was done years ago and stuck ever since. The Yuan-Ti first made their appearance in I1, the Dwellers of the Forbidden City, a Greyhawk module written by David Cook (remember him?) and it was written about the same time as Mystara made its first appearance in the first Expert set (circa 1980); Tom Moldvay was one of the playtesters of I1... yet another Mystara connection... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Module I1 and Mystara I've been looking over the module I1 after my last post, and boy oh boy have I been missing a great opportunity for adventure in Mystara! It even fits in with my own histories and campaign, and it can easily be put into Mystara even without using my histories. The Forbidden City would be best placed in the more mountainous regions of the Hills of Desolation, just south of the Thyatian Hinterlands. It was originally designed to be set in "a tropical jungle... in a small group of unexplored (and unmapped) mountains...", so that setting would work great (you could even connect it to the Manacapuru Tribes, who worship snakelike Immortals; amybe a powerful Manacapuru Shaman is trying to rebuild their ancient empire (adventure # 2 on page 23 of I1 fits this perfectly; not only would the PC's have to deal with the Yuan-Ti, but they'd also have to deal with the Manacaouru and the denizens of the Dimension of Nightmares that have crawled through the Gate in the Forbidden City)). If not using my histories, it could still be set in Mystara with very little difficulty. It could be set in the more mountainous jungle regions of the Isle of Ochalea (say, southwest of Wongzhao Tsuhao). Or, if you are using the MOrient, you could place it somewhere in MManchuria or in the wilderness of MIndonesia. Any which way it makes for a great Mystaran adventure! I really need to go over the old Greyhawk materials by Cook and Moldvay; I think a lot of that material could have been generated with "Mystara" in mind as well as Greyhawk... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:57:29 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D or Modified On Mon, 5 May 1997 DM wrote: SSo, from what i've heard here, nobody actually plays OD&D with only core rules.... Strange how the most famous and most sold RPG in the world is not played as it was designed.. >But maybe that's its greatest strength: it can be easily changed or adapted to the DMs' and players' wishes! I think what we love of D&D is its great flexibility... and above all, the setting. SSo, long live Mystara! Well said. I always considered D&D to be synonymous with the Known World, and later synonymous with Mystara and all its different settings. I agree it is flexibility that makes D&D the best system around. Some of my friends don't understand why I use the system, saying it is rubbish, out-of-date and completely useless. But what they don't understand is that I know the system so well that I feel comfortable making adhustments and I don't have to worry about looking up game rules during play. And also, I have ALL the rules right here where I need them, and I don't need to spend any more money on them. :-) Perhaps one reason it is so flexible is that the designers encourage you to chop and change as you play! Finally, and most importantly, I always loved the D&D system for its plain and simple fun! Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:47:55 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara]Ierendi ><< In the PC2or3, The Sea People, the northernmost keeps oon Ierendi and Safari Islands are both called North Keep. The Rules Cyclopedia supports the name on Safari Island. Is another name given for >the north keep on Ierendi Island in any other accessory (perhaps the Trail >Maps)? Thank you very much for helping me out here. >> >Odd, my copy of the RC has the name "North Tower" for the keep on Safari Island, while it has "North Keep" on Ierendi Island. I'd go with that, as that is what it also is on the Trail Map... >Mystaros Oops, you're right about the RC saying North Tower on Safari, but Ierendi Island isn't shown in the RC, is it? Thank you! Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 23:05:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Yuan-Ti Mystaros@aol.com pontificated: >The Yuan-Ti are a race of humans with snake attributes. The Purebloods pass for human 80% of the time, and they only have slight differences from normal humans, such as snake eyes, a forked tongue, small fangs, some scales, etc. Halfbreeds are half human half snake, say snake head with flexible torso, or totally scales instead of skin or no legs, only snake tail, etc. The Abominations are either all snake or half the time they have either a human head or human arms, and are very large. So, a pure Y-T is almost human like, but offspring with human actually became more snake like? And what are the abominations? For half breeds, is the human parent generally male or female? And what are their connection made with the elves? >IIRC, the Yuan-Ti were >actually an oriental culture or race or kingdom at one time, In real world or game world? >since. The Yuan-Ti first made their appearance in I1, the Dwellers of the Forbidden City, a Greyhawk module written by David Cook (remember him?) and it was written about the same time as Mystara made its first appearance in the first Expert set (circa 1980); Tom Moldvay was one of the playtesters of I1... yet another Mystara connection... Actually David "Zeb" Cook have "Mystara Degree" of one. He wrote Earthshaker, and maybe even one other module, can't quite remember. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:08:02 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tidbits about the Thanegioth Archipelago >While going over some old digests tonight, I discovered an ASCII map of the T- Archipelago by Daniel Boese, based off of info in XSolo 1- Lathan's Gold. I noticed some stuff I hadn't when I originally looked at the module- Funny, I was just looking at that module last night to refresh my own memory about what was out there in the Sea of Dread. TTidbit #1: We all know there are Aranea on the Isle of Dawn, but how about on Spider Isle? It's located somewhat to the Northwest of the Isle of Dawn, and houses the lost Temple of Araknee. Hmm... Arachne-Prime, anyone? This caught my attention as well. Don't forget that X1 places aranea on the Isle of Dread as well, so Spider Isle could have been kind of a meeting place between the two groups, as well as the site of the temple. TTidbit #2: Skeleton Key to the Southwest of Spider Isle is the battlesite >of the legendary Aquapopulous war, a battle between men and mermen. On the Mermen side, we have (IMO) the Empire of Twaelar. Who is on the human >side? Probably Tanagoro men (like those found on the Isle of Dawn), but when did this battle occur? And where did the Tanagoro who populate the T.A. come from? While I don't know a whole lot about this, everything that you say sounds good. >Anyway, just thought I'd mention it... :) It's really not a bad little module:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:24:30 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Oards At 10.31 05/05/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: >BTW, the Oards, IMC, come from another Dimension, and are a relatively >new development in the Multiverse... so new that they were not involved in BBlackmoor, but they were involved in the WotI... Again it's your non-canon stuff... I'm sure you know that the oards have the ability to timetravel, so what kept them from interfering with Blackmoor? Also, why do you say they originated from another dimension? CM6 states that Aelos (the world they come from) IS in the Prime Plane, so i don't see your point... And again: how were they involved in WotI (obviously according to your history, cause again that's non canon reference in any WotI ref books)? Oh, and talking about the One Rule of the Immortals, there are many examples of Immortals blatantly violating the rule without retributions, so that it seems to me that there is a close parallel between the Immortals and the Federation of Star Trek (and the One Rule is obviously the Prime Directive): they both want to preserve the universe, but they cannot avoid to interfere with it, often resulting in unexpected and dangerous situations (the only difference is that the federation cannot go back in time to change the events and that it has not the PCs doing their biddings). DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:37:28 +0000 From: DM Subject: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) At 18.20 05/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Err... sorry but, what about the creation of elves? Quote from Mystaros': "they originated from Yuan-ti who were purged of their serpentine heritage from Ordana and given to the fairy folk to be educated.." So, if this is not direct intervention.... And i could quote many other things.. >For one thing, that is Mystaros' own campaign, and is certainly not canon, but since my point was that I agreed with him on the issue of Immortals not interfering too much (which, as I noted, is not a direct quote, and may be a misrepresentation), I take your point. Oh, but i can quote many other such interferences from Immortals basing on canon stuff: - - the creation of Dwarves by Kagyar - - the creation of Enduks by Ixion - - the creation of Gnomes by Garal Glitterlode - - the creation of Beastmen by Hel - - and above all, the corruption of Nithians by Thanatos and the subsequent arbitrary eradication of a whole culture by the other Immortals (if that's not direct interference, tell me what's it...) Where was the Council of Intrusion at those times? Probably it didn't exist, but then why they felt the need to create it? >At any rate, my own thoughts are that the Immortals didn't (or wouldn't) directly interefere with the progress of the evolution of a species- as you suggested with the Carnifex. While they might assist, and sometimes create, new species, I don't think they would do anything that would hasten the natural progression... I don't think that makes my point any clearer. Well, actually Kagyar did it with post Blackmoor dwarves... >Try this- using Mystaros' example, the Immortals purge some Yuan-Ti of their serpentine characteristics, creating a new species. They don't purge _all_ of them, just _some_. The other Yuan-Ti are left to their own natural evolution, as are the elves, once created. They haven't directly interfered with the evolution of the Yuan-Ti as a race; they still exist, and can progress on their own. All they have done is create a new species, that can likewise evolve on their own, independently of the Yuan-Ti. I do see your point here.. :) >Bottom line: I don't think 2000 years is enough time for them to evolve like that. Give the Carnifex longer than 2000 years to go from the tool-using, spark of intellect creatures to the potentially magic wielding creatures, and I'll probably give you the 1000 years or so to the Powerful Magic Using Carnifex. Actually, with my argument i was only trying to avoid the "six zeros" in the Mystara timeline cause it complicates things IMO. Anyway, how much time do you think they will need to evolve to attain the spark of intellect? Let's say 10.000 years? The humans took less time to achieve it, however (basing on the official timeline...) Also, what about seeing the Carnifex themselves as the D&D Cthulu minor deities (they're imprisoned in another plane andd trying to free themselves and they have erected strange monuments, like in HPL mithoy...)? DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:03:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Yuan-Ti In a message dated 97-05-07 01:47:44 EDT, you write: << The Yuan-Ti are a race of humans with snake attributes. > So, a pure Y-T is almost human like, but offspring with human actually became more snake like? And what are the abominations? For half breeds, is the human parent generally male or female? And what are their connection made with the elves?>> Actually, IIRC "Halfbreed" refers to the fact that the specific type of Yuan-Ti has half human and half snake characteristics, not to the fact that it is actually a Yuan-Ti/Human crossbreed. Perhaps Halfbreeds are the cross between Purebloods and Abominations or some such, or maybe simply each of the Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:25:39 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #70 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ff1c49f8a717b6cc7669b7d4b03ee12d three types is a "sub-race" within the Yuan-Ti race. IMC, the Elves that Ordana "Created" were actually a group of "repentant" Yuan-Ti (that is, Yuan-Ti who no longer wished to be servitors of the Serpentines and were no longer evil). So, Ordana helped them by purging them of their snake attributes and helping create a new culture for them that was more in tune with nature. She did this by placing them in the protection of groups of allied Faerie races (Sidhe, Pixies, Faerdorne, etc.), and by protecting them in their primeveal forests. But that is NOT Canon Mystara, only my own campaign. Also, it was discovered in later millennia that she had not completely purged their snakinedd, which was not possible due to its nature, she simply supressed it, and it came out in a group of Elves that remained on the Davania follwoing the GRoF; these Elves allied with an evil sect of Metallic Dragons and formed the Empire of the Dragon Elves of Pelatan, which was the predecesor to the modern Matriarchy of Pelatan, a large Dragon Elf Kingdom on Davania (again, IMOC). In real world or game world?>> In the Real World, IIRC (or maybe I'm just thinking of the Yueh)? I'll have to look that up... << by David Cook (remember him?) ...Tom Moldvay was one of the playtesters of I1... yet another Mystara connection...> Actually David "Zeb" Cook have "Mystara Degree" of one. He wrote Earthshaker, and maybe even one other module, can't quite remember. John Yu>> If I understand, by a "Degree of one" you mean he didn't have much to do with Mystara? Well, actually, way back in 1980/81, when the first Blue Book D&D Expert set cam out, he was the editor. Then, module X1 was his work too, along with Tom Moldvay. Moldvay went on to do X2, and Cook did X4 and X5, which gave us the lands west of the Known World, Sind and Hule (in primitve form, but it was there). Then the Rasmussens gave us the Serpent Peninsula and the Savage Coast in X6 and X9. Back in the Basics, Moldvay gave us B3 and B4, while Cook gave us B6 "The Veiled Society", which described an earlier versio of Specularum along with the Traladaran urban society. In the revised D&D boxed series Frank Mentzer gave us the world view of Mystara, putting it all together. Later, through a huge colletive design the Known World took shape in the Gazetteers. And of course, then Bruce gave it more detail than any other TSR world ever was given, with the Princess Ark series. While it's true that Cook and Moldvay didn't do any of the Gazetteers, I would say that if it weren't for them, there wouldn't be a Mystara. I've tried to find out who first came up with Mystara, but as yet to no avail. Also, an interesting side note that was pointed out to me once... Moldvay spelledd backward is Yavdlom. Sound familiar? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:29:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Oards In a message dated 97-05-07 05:55:38 EDT, you write: << Again it's your non-canon stuff... >> As always... :) <> Okay, here's the way it goes IMC. The Oards first started getting involved with Mystara, from the campaigns perspective, during the WotI, where they tried to cause some really nasty things to happen with Alphak's Meteor (Hint: What would have happened to Mystara if the Meteor was off my only several minute degrees, and hit Glantri City and the Nucleus of the Spheres instead of the mountains to the south). PC's would need to stop this from happening (there is also a time travel adventure around this concerning a parallel Mystara where the Oards succeeded). Now, from the PC's perspective, the first time they encountered them was in the WotI, BUT, because the Oards work in the past, they will have to travel back in time to undo whatever they do back there so time could come to the point they are at on Mystara (you know, I really am beginning to think the Borg WERE inspired by the Oards, especially after the movie "First Contact"). So they could very well indeed interfere with Blackmoor, but they didn't SUCCESSFULLY do so in the end, because the adventurers from the future stopped them from doing so (or Immortals in the past might well have, too, see below). Besides, I felt that the Serpentines were already enough of an enemy to deal with without adding the Oards to the soup. I placed the Oards in another Dimension because I felt that they really weren't appropriate to the Prime Plane, and it really enhances the "Alienness" of them. It also allows for Immmortal interference on a certain level, as the Oards could be considered an intrussion from another Dimension, and thus fall under the jurisdiction of the Council of Intrusion. However, since the Oards are, for the most part, mortal level creatures, it would be required of the Immortals to sic mortals after them... thus, more campaign material. The Oards have already drained their own dimension of all it's MAgic, and have come to the Multiverse in order to expand (RIF!). Unlike the basic setup in CM6, I've added various factions all attempting to serve "Oard Prime" (the Big Tamale) in the way that they feel is best (the Prime set it up this way so that the Oars would be competitive and be able to "evolve" even highr within their own life form). Thus, you've got various MasterOards each leading a faction; for example, one faction believes in the negation of all opposing lifeforms, whileanother believe in the integration of all life forms; others believe in the taming and slow draining of magic, while their opposite would believe in the quick and dirty elimination of magic, etc. There are Basal Oards, Oard Warriors, OardMages (a totally rogue faction that is trying to prove that magic can be used by the Oards to further their goals... not sanctioned by the Prime at all (officially), and the ENEMY of all other Oards (can you say "Politics makes strange bedfellows")? There are MindOards (Psionic), Inquisitors (to check the "Purity" of the factions), Scientists, etc... One difficulty for the Immortals (and the reason they let mortals handle the Oards if at all possible) is that IMC the Oard Technology affects Immortals as though they were of ARTIFACT status! Nasty stuff, that! <> Exactly. I never said it DIDN'T happen, I just said that it was rare; and if it's too obviously way out of the ordinary, the Immortals WILL fix it (generally going back in time to stop it before it starts). Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 17:40:02 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) >>Bottom line: I don't think 2000 years is enough time for them to evolve like that. Give the Carnifex longer than 2000 years to go from the tool-using, spark of intellect creatures to the potentially magic wielding creatures, and I'll probably give you the 1000 years or so to the Powerful Magic Using Carnifex. >Actually, with my argument i was only trying to avoid the "six zeros" in the Mystara timeline cause it complicates things IMO. Anyway, how much time do you think they will need to evolve to attain the spark of intellect? Let's say 10.000 years? The humans took less time to achieve it, however (basing on the official timeline...) I agree with DM (bella lì, Marco): maybe a period of 200,000 years is more realistic, but after all this is fantasy! IMHO 10,000 years are enough and besides everything is simpler. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:37:27 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Wed, 7 May 1997, DM wrote: >At 18.20 05/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >>>Err... sorry but, what about the creation of elves? Quote from Mystaros': "they originated from Yuan-ti who were purged of their serpentine heritage from Ordana and given to the fairy folk to be educated.." So, if this is not direct intervention.... And i could quote many other things.. >>For one thing, that is Mystaros' own campaign, and is certainly not canon, but since my point was that I agreed with him on the issue of Immortals not interfering too much (which, as I noted, is not a direct quote, and may be a misrepresentation), I take your point. >Oh, but i can quote many other such interferences from Immortals basing on canon stuff: >- the creation of Dwarves by Kagyar >- the creation of Enduks by Ixion >- the creation of Gnomes by Garal Glitterlode - the creation of Beastmen by Hel >- and above all, the corruption of Nithians by Thanatos and the subsequent arbitrary eradication of a whole culture by the other Immortals (if that's not direct interference, tell me what's it...) Where was the Council of Intrusion at those times? Probably it didn't exist, but then why they felt the need to create it? The eradication of the Nithian Empire was the cause of the "One Rule". After the Immortals saw what blatant direct interferance had done they prohibitted it. This would prevent further corruptions, and someone from just eradicating all of an Immortals followers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:22:20 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] More on Elves I'm reading the second book in the Dragonlord trilogy and I've noticed that it mentions elvish settlements ("frosthomes") in Norwold before the Alphatians went there. Another mistery in the already twisted elven history? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:41:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Summer How active is this list during summer? Last summer I ended my subscription to avoid getting my inbox filled with mails that I couldn't check before next semester, but now I can check my mail at home (not just at the university), and I will probably partcipate on the list, since I'll get more time. Are there usually people on the list during summer, or will most of you not get any mails posted during this period? I mainly thinking about the period July-August, in which I'll be around most of the time except for a short trip to Italy (!) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:35:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: >Dungeons and Dragons Books: >The Penhaligon Trilogy (by D.J. Heinrich) TThe Tainted Sword >The Dragon's Tomb >The Fall of Magic >AD&D Mystara Books: >Dragonlord Chronicles (by Thorarinn Gunnarsson) DDragonlord of Mystara >Dragonking of Mystara >Dragonmage of Mystara >The Black Vessel (by Morris Simon) (Savage Coast) Dark Knight of Karameikos (by Timothy Brown) >First Quest Books (Young Adult Fantasy) SSon of Dawn (by Dixie McKeone) Are any of these authors online? Maybe they could participate on this list? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:54:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-07 13:08:31 EDT, you write: << Oh, but i can quote many other such interferences from Immortals basing on canon stuff: - the creation of Dwarves by Kagyar - the creation of Enduks by Ixion - the creation of Gnomes by Garal Glitterlode - the creation of Beastmen by Hel - and above all, the corruption of Nithians by Thanatos and the subsequent arbitrary eradication of a whole culture by the other Immortals (if that's not direct interference, tell me what's it...) Where was the Council of Intrusion at those times? Probably it didn't exist, but then why they felt the need to create it?>> Well, in my history the Council of Mystara, which deals with Immortal activities on Mystara was founded at the advent of the Immortal Heirarchy in 1,000,000,000 BC. The Council of Intrusion, which deals with intrusions from other Dimensions (the Immortal X-Files :) was founded after the Great War with the Entities from the Void Between the Stars, to make sure that they stayed in their Prison Dimension, and to make sure other such entities did't intrude into the Multiverse. That council fell apart after several aeons due to lack of percieved need, but was resurrected after the Carnifex Incident. As I have mentioned elsewhere, and as is mentioned below, the creation/reconstruction/preservation of the various races you mention were all within the parameters of non-directive interference; in other words, the Immortals merely assisted these beings to rise to their potential, or gave them the ability to survive, or simple engendered their existence, but again did not give them any undue advantage over any other races on Mystara. Heck, the Beastmen got their butts kicked all over the place! No real advantage there (even their incredible ability to survive in the wasted regions of the world is merely to help them survive, not a direct advantage over other races). As to the Nithians, the corruption of their culture was influenced by Thanatos, not directly IMPOSED by him. Humans and others are free to follow whatever Immortals they wish; that is one of the corallaries of the One Rule. BUT... when the Nithians reached a certain level of power, they had become not a challenge to the Immortals, but a tilitong factor of the balance. They had made enemies of pretty much every Immortal save Thanatos and a few others of his ilk, and had turned not only to the ways of Entropy, but were also attempting to bring back the Entities from their Prison Dimension (IMOC). Thus, the other Immortals, including Hel of the Sphere of Entropy, determined that they were a threat to not onlythe planet Mystara (the jurosdiction of the Council of Mystara), but also to the Multiverse (the jurisdiction, in this case, of the Council of Intrusion), and thus was one of the ways to circumvent the One Rule invoked. And the Nithians were purged (though they had finished themselves off to a great extent during their Civil War, anyway). <<...I don't think they would do anything that would hasten the natural progression... I don't think that makes my point any clearer. Well, actually Kagyar did it with post Blackmoor dwarves...>> Actually, Kagyar simply reinstated the natural order of things by saving the Dwarves, who (IMC at least) were dying out from a very unnatural disease (for those with my Blackmoor history, it was a mutation of the Madness disease of the Serpentines). So he simply purged them of it, and gave them the ability to resist that disease, as well as the other remnants of it that were still spread here and there, and released them back into the world... < I do see your point here.. :)>> Yep, that's what I meant too! <> Actually the Official Timeline (using the HW book here) simply states that the Humans and other races were "... in their infancy..." at 6000 BC, and that they had more or less helped cause the extinction of the Brute-Men on the outer world circa 10,000 BC. It says nothing about the point at which they achieved sentience. Presuming that the timeline follows a somewhat similar timeline, notably our own, it would be same to asume that intelligence might well have developed by 100,000 BC, if not further back (recently, spears were found at a dig dating back to 400,000 BC in our OWN time, so there is some support for this kind of theory). The modern Human species (Homo Sapiens Sapiens, archaic) was around, oh, by at least 500,000 years ago, if I rememeber my prehistory correctly (H. S. Neanderthalensis was an offshoot of that early group of humans, or so it is theorized). So Humans in Mystara could easily have a very ancient CANONICAL history on Mystara. << Also, what about seeing the Carnifex themselves as the D&D Cthulu minor deities (they're imprisoned in another plane andd trying to free themselves and they have erected strange monuments, like in HPL mithoy...)? DM >> They do fit in like that with my history, I think I posted something about that a wee bit back... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:31:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Prime Directive (Was:[Mystara] Oards) On Wed, 7 May 1997, DM wrote: >Oh, and talking about the One Rule of the Immortals, there are many examples of Immortals blatantly violating the rule without retributions, so that it seems to me that there is a close parallel between the Immortals and the Federation of Star Trek (and the One Rule is obviously the Prime Directive): they both want to preserve the universe, but they cannot avoid to interfere with it, often resulting in unexpected and dangerous situations (the only difference is that the federation cannot go back in time to change the events and that it has not the PCs doing their biddings). Agreed. It reminds me of the DS9 episode (offtopic- DS9 has been getting better; I actually watch it now), where the crew of DS9 goes back in time to the "Tribble" episode. I can see the Immortals having a team of Time monitors, like the time patrol (or whatever it was called) that question Sisko on his time travel activities. (My favorite part- Sisko mentions Kirk, and they guys sigh. "We've got a report on him a mile long..." or something like that.) The difference, as you note, would be that the Immortals could go back and "set right what once went wrong"- which leads me to believe that they could, a) have Quantum Leapers: mortals who they jump around in time to fix things, a la Dr. Sam Beckett, and/or b) these Immortal inquisitors could be the Mystaran equivalent of "Men in Black", who go around and pose as official investigators questioning the activities of mortals ("We're with the DDC Special Task Force on Unidentified Activity" flash a quick badge "May we speak with you a moment?") The Time Variance Authority (I'm stealing the term from Walt Simonson's Fantastic Four run) could be made up of Time Immortals or a combination of Immortals, under the jurisdiction of Immortals in the Sphere of Time. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #70 **************************** Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 05:26:53 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #71 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, May 8 1997 Volume 02 : Number 071 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:46:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Wed, 7 May 1997, DM wrote: >Oh, but i can quote many other such interferences from Immortals basing on canon stuff: >- the creation of Dwarves by Kagyar Kagyar didn't create the dwarves, he just modified the existing Dwarf race to be able to withstand the radiation created by the destruction of Blackmoor. In essence, he created a new race. While the canon materials we thus far have (ie Hollow World and GAZ6) say he deposited the survivors of the Blackmoor era dwarf race in the HW, there is no reason to suppose he didn't leave some on the outer world, unmodified, to continue their attempts at survival. IE, he gathered up some dwarves, saved some, modified others, yet left the original race to fend for itself. Though they may have subsequently died off (and IMC, I have survivors of it, warped and twisted, still around; IMC also, the Modrigswerg are actually descendants of these dwarves)- though they may have died off, Kagyar didn't directly interfere with them. Obviously, you could argue this point with the canon materials as I pointed out, but I'd compare it to Mystaros' example of the creation of the elves, which I discussed elsewhere. (Also, Aaron Allston had this real thing about Immortals being strongly influential on Mystara; a feeling I don't share, and which, IMO, isn't at all supported by Pre-Gazetteer information- the Immortals aren't even introduced until the Master's Set...) >- the creation of Enduks by Ixion I don't know what canon says, offhand. All I have is the original Dragon article on them, and I don't remember what it says. Again, though, I would say that the introduction of a new race isn't as direct an interference as the altering/hastening of evolution/destruction of an already existing race. So long as the original race is left intact to some degree, I think the introduction of new species is allowed. It's a fine distinction, yes, but it's the one that I would make. >- the creation of Gnomes by Garal Glitterlode Alteration of an already existing race; the original race is still left intact, however. >- the creation of Beastmen by Hel Introduction of a new species, though the original stock (humans, etc.) is left intact. >- and above all, the corruption of Nithians by Thanatos and the subsequent arbitrary eradication of a whole culture by the other Immortals (if that's not direct interference, tell me what's it...) Thanatos doesn't play by the rules, and he and Ranivorus (his partner) were both summarily punished, as were the Nithians. >Where was the Council of Intrusion at those times? Probably it didn't exist, but then why they felt the need to create it? IIRC, they were the major force behind the eradication of the Nithian Empire, and insuring that Thanatos and Ranivorus didn't get away with it. >Well, actually Kagyar did it with post Blackmoor dwarves... See my point above. You have the evidence, as it were, on your side to argue this point, but IMO, Kagyar simply insured that a portion of the dwarf race (modified) would survive, even if the original race didn't. >Actually, with my argument i was only trying to avoid the "six zeros" in the Mystara timeline cause it complicates things IMO. Anyway, how much time do you think they will need to evolve to attain the spark of intellect? Let's say 10.000 years? The humans took less time to achieve it, however (basing on the official timeline...) I'm not exactly sure here. As for the humans taking less time, we don't really know for sure- according to the official timeline, which starts c. 6000 BC, the humans are currently at the "Neathar" level (an early hunter-gatherer culture) which seems similar to pre-agrarian Mesopotamia or similar societies. What we don't see (since it is considered pre-history) is how long it took for the humans to evolve to that current state of existence. >Also, what about seeing the Carnifex themselves as the D&D Cthulu minor deities (they're imprisoned in another plane andd trying to free themselves and they have erected strange monuments, like in HPL mithoy...)? I don't know about that. We already have many Cthulhianic-types of entities- the Burrowers for one, and others that I don't recall offhand. Perhaps the Carnifex are one of the lesser "servitor" races of those types of entities, though, as (I might argue) are the Kopru. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:24:18 -0400 From: Joe Duncan Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) >>Immortals not interfering too much (which, as I noted, is not a direct quote, and may be a misrepresentation), I take your point. >Oh, but i can quote many other such interferences from Immortals basing on canon stuff: >- the creation of Dwarves by Kagyar >- the creation of Enduks by Ixion >- the creation of Gnomes by Garal Glitterlode - the creation of Beastmen by Hel >- and above all, the corruption of Nithians by Thanatos and the subsequent arbitrary eradication of a whole culture by the other Immortals (if that's not direct interference, tell me what's it...) Where was the Council of Intrusion at those times? Probably it didn't exist, but then why they felt the need to create it? From what I understood, the Immortals are only banned from direct interference. Creating races and influencing dreams etc.. isn't banned at all... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just Glad To Be Here Happy To Be Alive" Joe Duncan, Computer Science, Carleton University jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca cq793@freenet.carleton.ca ug960099@omega.scs.carleton.ca - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:37:32 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves Hi! Mentioning the Dragonlord Trilogy, I´ve to say that I have liked it quite much. The first book was really hard to read, and I needed quite long to finish it. But then I started the second book, and I liked it much more. Also the third book was not too bad. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:48:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Immortal Interference On Wed, 7 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: <<< Oh, but i can quote many other such interferences from Immortals basing on ccanon stuff: >- the creation of Dwarves by Kagyar >- the creation of Enduks by Ixion >- the creation of Gnomes by Garal Glitterlode - the creation of Beastmen by Hel >- and above all, the corruption of Nithians by Thanatos and the subsequent arbitrary eradication of a whole culture by the other Immortals (if that's not direct interference, tell me what's it...) Where was the Council of Intrusion at those times? Probably it didn't exist, but then why they felt the need to create it?>> >Well, in my history the Council of Mystara, which deals with Immortal Keyword here: "MY". It simply is not fair to argue points like this using examples from your campaign, because that is not where people are coming from when they bring up points like this. The destruction of the Nithians is MOST DEFINITELY an example of bad Immortal interference. It doesn't matter if you explained it in your own campaign - it is only relevant insofar as talking about solutions, which is something many of us are not interested in. Don't get me wrong - I think your stuff on Mystara is great, but it doesn't fit in with everyone's campaigns, and you can't just assume we are all arguing with it in mind. ><<...I don't think they would do anything that would hasten the natural progression... I don't think that makes my point any clearer. >Well, actually Kagyar did it with post Blackmoor dwarves...>> >Actually, Kagyar simply reinstated the natural order of things by saving the Dwarves, who (IMC at least) were dying out from a very unnatural disease (for those with my Blackmoor history, it was a mutation of the Madness disease of the Serpentines). So he simply purged them of it, and gave them the ability to resist that disease, as well as the other remnants of it that were still spread here and there, and released them back into the world... Again, this is all IYC (wow, another new abbreviation!). In actual fact all we know is that Kagyar was disappointed with the dwarves, and changed them into "better" dwarves. There is no evidence to support the contention that they would have evolved into their current form. ><Mystara timeline cause it complicates things IMO. Anyway, how much time do you think they will need to evolve to attain the spark of intellect? Let's say 10.000 years? The humans took less time to achieve it, however (basing on the official timeline...)>> >Actually the Official Timeline (using the HW book here) simply states that the Humans and other races were "... in their infancy..." at 6000 BC, and that they had more or less helped cause the extinction of the Brute-Men on the outer world circa 10,000 BC. It says nothing about the point at which they achieved sentience. Presuming that the timeline follows a somewhat similar timeline, notably our own, it would be same to asume that intelligence might well have developed by 100,000 BC, if not further back (recently, spears were found at a dig dating back to 400,000 BC in our OWN time, so there is some support for this kind of theory). The modern Human species (Homo Sapiens Sapiens, archaic) was around, oh, by at least 500,000 years ago, if I rememeber my prehistory correctly (H. S. Neanderthalensis was an offshoot of that early group of humans, or so it is theorized). So Humans in Mystara could easily have a very ancient CANONICAL history on Mystara. Agreed. I don't want to get into this argument (because I know nothing about it), but this is how you should be discussing things - by talking about "canonical" sources. (Not that you can't continue on as you are - but you will have to accept some people just aren't interested in stuff tailor-made for other people's campaigns.) Now I don't want to sound stupid but what supplement/game world are the Yuan-Ti from? :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:23:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) The Immortal "Prime Directive" is less restrictive than it would appear at first glance. A literal reading is as follows: "On the Prime Plane, Direct Action Against Mortals is Forbidden." There are many ways that Immortals can interfere with Mortals without violating this rule, and there are also ways to get this rule set aside temporarily. Most instances of Immortal interference in Mystaran history fall into one of these categories. First off, the "Prime Directive" forbids Immortals from appearing on the Prime Material Plane in Manifestation form or directly and blatantly killing mortals. However, nothing stops them from creating new life forms and letting them loose in the world, or from destroying mortals through Mortal Identity forms. Thus, for example, Rad cannot appear in his true form and start killing mortals that he dislikes, but Prince Etienne d'Ambreville is under no such restrictions. And creating new races is not a problem -- either the Immortal is able to do so without assuming Manifestation form, or he creates his creatures elsewhere and then opens up a gate to turn them loose on the Prime Material Plane. Second, there are some exceptions to the "Prime Directive". In reverse order from the listing in WotI, they are as follows: 1) An Immortal may take action to create and fulfill a prophecy, provided he does not do so for the purpose of harming his enemies (for example, by dropping a large meteor on a nation that worships a rival Immortal). 2) An Immortal may punish or even kill one of his own Clerics, if he feels that such punishment is warranted. 3) Finally, if a Council of Hierarchs from each of the five Spheres agrees on a course of action, that action not only can but must be taken. So, in the example of the destruction of the "corrupted" Nithians, at least one Hierarch from the Sphere of Entropy must have been convinced that this corruption was a very bad thing. Has anyone addressed this particular point yet? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:01:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Yuan-Ti In a message dated 97-05-07 22:08:07 EDT, you write: << Now I don't want to sound stupid but what supplement/game world are the Yuan-Ti from? :-) They are found in AD&D. Originally appeared in I1, Dwellers of the Forbidden City. Now found in the Monsterous Manual... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:36:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Interference In a message dated 97-05-07 22:08:07 EDT, you write: << Keyword here: "MY". It simply is not fair to argue points like this using examples from your campaign, because that is not where people are coming from when they bring up points like this.>> It most certainly IS fair to argue points using campaign materials that work within Canonical boundaries IF you are trying to interpret the materials at hand. Without extrapolation and evolution of concepts, there can BE no interpretation, as the only materials to be dealt with are then the source which is the problematical material being discussed. Without having tested the validity and boundaries of the various historical or cultural "values" (which the One Rule is certainly a cultural "Value"), outside the basic materials, there would be nothing to debate or discuss! Now, what I have tried to emphasize by stating numerous times is that my material is NOT Canon or that it is IMC, is that it is an extrapolation of the Canonical materials, which, considering the scant nature of the Canonical materia being discussed, extrapolated (otherwise, non-Canonical campaign material) is required to debate the issue! Interpret and extraoplate! That is what is to be done with the material in order to allow it to reach its full potential! While I have seen a number of people claim that "it is not so" simply because they state it is not, I must say that I have not seen valid argumenets to the contrary, merely simple naysaying. I have been developing my Mystara campaign for well over a decade now, in fact, ever since it premiered in 1981 as a simple wildernes area in the first Expert set, adapting and adopting the materials that have come out since, and always remaining in the spirit of Canon if not in the word. Therefore, I would say that while my material is not Canon, it certainly should hold some weight as simple, educated, reasonable adjunct material.... :) << The destruction of the Nithians is MOST DEFINITELY an example of bad Immortal interference. It doesn't matter if you explained it in your own campaign - it is only relevant insofar as talking about solutions, which is something many of us are not interested in.>> Actually, even in Canonical material the Nithian Empire was not destroyed by the Immortals, Thanatos corrupted them and they destroyed THEMSELVES (HWR2). Of course, that material was not at all in sync with prior material which stated that the Immortals DID finish the Empire off... but, IMC (there's that abbreviation again!) I went halfway, and had the Nithians pretty much finish themsevles off, and then had the Immortals clean up the little bits that were left, which is an interpretation of the Canonical materials that falls within all of the Canonical "requirements"... < Again, this is all IYC (wow, another new abbreviation!). In actual fact all we know is that Kagyar was disappointed with the dwarves, and changed them into "better" dwarves. There is no evidence to support the contention that they would have evolved into their current form. >> Actually, the reconstruction of the Dwarves was not due to Kagyar's "disappointment" in them, it was because they were dying out! Refer to HW DMS pg 12 and 52; now, in GAZ6 it doesn't mention anything about the sickness... so what happened in between GAZ6 and the HW? EXTRAPOLATION! Cool, huh? Now of course, it was Official Extrapolation, which meant that it was Canon, but just because extrapolation isn't official and isn't Canon doesn't mean that it isn't valid or doesn't fall within Canonical bounds. In fact, as far as I am aware, everything I have ever written falls perfectly well within Canonical bounds. Extrapolation: To Infer Unknown Information from Known Information. That's all I'm doing... Mystaros BTW, IYC (I like that abbreviation), when, how and why did the Council of Mystara form? What are the origins of the Immortals? How are they tied to the Faerie races? I've shown pretty much the whens, hows and whys of my campaign, and so far everyone seems to just pound on it. Let me know how you wnet about it inYOUR campaigns, and convince me that I'm off... Not that this is a challenge, by any means, I'm honestly interested in how others have adapted and evolved and interpreted Mystara... Myst ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:18:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves In a message dated 97-05-07 21:48:48 EDT, you write: << 'm reading the second book in the Dragonlord trilogy and I've noticed that it mentions elvish settlements ("frosthomes") in Norwold before the Alphatians went there. Another mistery in the already twisted elven history? >> The Great Elven Migration of the Returnists actually passed through the region of Wendar and southern Norwold sometime between 2200 and 2100 BC. On page 7 of The Elves of Alfheim it states that in 2200 BC some Elven migrants settled in Glantri and by 2100 BC the Elves had reached the Sylvan Realm. The map clearly shows the migration pasing through the area mentioned above. As "Tfollowers of Ilsundal were the forebears of virtually all the Elves of the known world", it would be safe to presume that the Elves of the Foresthomes and the Elves of Wendar are descended from the Elves of the long Migration (of course, the Shadow Elves were another matter, but that was noted in passing in the timeline). So its pretty safe to say that the Norwold Elves were descended from the Elves of Ilsundal... unless, of course, in your campaign you decide otherwise! Which is perfectly valid. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 05:16:07 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Wed, 7 May 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >>Oh, but i can quote many other such interferences from Immortals basing on canon stuff: >>- the creation of Dwarves by Kagyar >Kagyar didn't create the dwarves, he just modified the existing Dwarf race to be able to withstand the radiation created by the destruction of Blackmoor. In essence, he created a new race. All true, except I wouldn't call the dwarves a new race - just a variation on an old one. >While the canon materials we thus far have (ie Hollow World and GAZ6) say he deposited the survivors of the Blackmoor era dwarf race in the HW, there is no reason to suppose he didn't leave some on the outer world, unmodified, to continue their attempts at survival. IE, he gathered up some dwarves, saved some, modified others, yet left the original race to fend for itself. Though they may have subsequently died off (and IMC, I have survivors of it, warped and twisted, still around; IMC also, the Modrigswerg are actually descendants of these dwarves)- though they may have died off, Kagyar didn't directly interfere with them. "Thus far"? Someone is a bit hopeful. ;-) Actually it is pretty clear from the HW descriptions that ALL of the Kogolors (ie all the remaining dwarves) were put into the Hollow World. Besides, there are certainly other instance where Immortals have interfered and caused the death of a culture - a great many of the cultures taken to the Hollow World, for example. In many of those cultures they were facing imminent doom, but the Immortals aren't always right. Take Shajapur. The removal of those Sindhis caused Sind to be ruled by shapeshifters when it would not necessarily have been before their removal. >Obviously, you could argue this point with the canon materials as I pointed out, but I'd compare it to Mystaros' example of the creation of>the elves, which I discussed elsewhere. (Also, Aaron Allston had this real thing about Immortals being strongly influential on Mystara; a feeling I don't share, and which, IMO, isn't at all supported by Pre-Gazetteer information- the Immortals aren't even introduced until the Master's Set...) Wow, someone who can spell Aaron Allston correctly! Good going, Cthulhudrew! (Ironically, I had to check to see how to spell YOUR name correctly...!) ;-) You are judging Aaron Allston on his later two works, HW and WotI. before that he didn't seem too concerned with Immortals - GAZ1 hardly even mentions them. >>- the creation of Enduks by Ixion >I don't know what canon says, offhand. All I have is the original Dragon article on them, and I don't remember what it says. Again, though, I would say that the introduction of a new race isn't as direct an interference as the altering/hastening of evolution/destruction of an already existing race. So long as the original race is left intact to some degree, I think the introduction of new species is allowed. It's a fine distinction, yes, but it's the one that I would make. Okay, but there are still examples of altering/hastening of evolution/destruction - the dwarves, regardless of what you said above, were altered so that they would be "better". >>- the creation of Gnomes by Garal Glitterlode >Alteration of an already existing race; the original race is still left intact, however. Actually I would say more creation of a new race "based upon" elements of an existing one - I don't think Garal took a dwarf and modified him, it is more probable he just created gnomes "in their image", so to speak. >>- and above all, the corruption of Nithians by Thanatos and the subsequent arbitrary eradication of a whole culture by the other Immortals (if that's not direct interference, tell me what's it...) >Thanatos doesn't play by the rules, and he and Ranivorus (his partner) were both summarily punished, as were the Nithians. How did Thanatos and Ranivorus not play by the rules, though? If all he did was corrupt the Nithians (mainly through their pharaoh) then they most certainly did not deserve to be eradicated as they were, given the non-interference rule. >>Well, actually Kagyar did it with post Blackmoor dwarves... >See my point above. You have the evidence, as it were, on your side to argue this point, but IMO, Kagyar simply insured that a portion of the dwarf race (modified) would survive, even if the original race didn't. I don't think there is sufficient evidence that the Kogolor were going to die out entirely - in the HW set it is more that Kagyar is disappointed with their lack of resistances. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 00:26:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits After digging up that info from Lathan's Gold the other day, I decided to go back and check out a few other modules that don't often get mentioned: M1 and M2 (not the Master series), the two Invisible Ink modules. Here is some stuff I gleaned: M1- Blizzard Pass We are introduced to a new "God"/Immortal- Stodos, the toadlike god. Known as the "Master of the Icy Wastes" by his followers, he is said to live in a lifeless, frozen wasteland, and he seeks to spread his icy realm throughout the world (I'm guessing he'd be an Entropic. :) He bestows power over the elements to his clerics, who wear black and red robes, and wear medallions with a toad engraved on them. He is apparently active in the Five Shires/Darokin area (Blizzard Pass is the mountain pass between- I think- Hinmeet and... erm, some Hin town in the Shires). He also has associations with humanoids (notably, Kobolds, Troglodytes) and Cave Toads and Snow Apes and humans. Any ideas on where else Mr. Toad might be active? I'm thinking he probably has followings in the Hyborean regions, for one... M2- Maze of the Riddling Minotaur (Very interesting stuff here...) The Island of Vacros- 400 years ago, this volcanic isle was the center of a vast mercantile empire. It fell under the corruption of Kiranjo a bull-headed god/Immortal (Possibly another name for Gylgarid, from X13?), who imported a lot of minotaurs. It eventually fell to the forces of... Lady Durnsay, of Cathos city. Cathos is a nearby island, that was subject to piracy by the Vacrosians. They got fed up and destroyed them, 400 years ago. Where to place these? I'm thinking that perhaps somewhere near the Minaen Coast or in that general Bellisaria/Minaea area. The culture depicted seems vaguely Greek (and not just because of the Minotaurs), and since Minaea was founded by Milenian refugees, perhaps this could explain their cultural elements? Anyone else? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:39:37 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) At 14.46 07/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >Kagyar didn't create the dwarves, he just modified the existing Dwarf >In essence, he created a new race. Pardon????? He didn't create the dwarves, but he did create a new race? Maybe you wanted to say: he didn't create the Kogolor Dwarves but he did create the Rockhome Dwarves, which now predominate on Mystara's surface. So, what's the difference? >there is no reason to suppose he didn't leave some on the outer world, unmodified, to continue their attempts at survival. Yes, maybe he did, but creating the other better and stouter race he automatically condemned the old dwarvish race to extinction. Let me make an example: the Homo Abilis is the Kogolor Dwarf and the Homo Sapiens the Rockhome Dwarf. Obviously the first hasn't got a chance to stand against the second one... So, we can say that Kagyar actually modified a race creating a new one, and thus caused the downfall of the first one, or if u want, caused the predominance of the second one... The SAME thing i was TRYING to SAY about CARNIFEX and DINOSAURS!!!!! >Though they may have subsequently died off (and IMC, I have survivors of it, warped and twisted, still around; IMC also, the Modrigswerg are actually descendants of these dwarves)- though they may have died off, Kagyar didn't directly interfere with them. He took some of their specimen and modificated them to improve their resistance to magic and diseases, thus giving an edge to the chosen ones: is that not interfering with normal evolution? I >I would say that the introduction of a new race isn't as direct an interference as the altering/hastening of evolution/destruction of an already existing race. Perfect! So Kagyar is responsible of ALTERING old dwarves and he's thus guilty of INTERFERENCE with mortals! You see, it's the same thing i thought Ka did with Carnifex, so if Ka is to blame, then Kagyar is to blame as well And besides, i don't think that "to create a new race is not so unbalancing in a world like Mystara" as u suggest. Remeber that the ecosystem of a planet depends on the species that live there, and so the more the species, the more the possible interaactions among them, the more likely is that some of the predominate and others become extinct... >So long as the original race is left intact to some degree, I think the introduction of new species is allowed. It's a fine distinction, yes, but it's the one that I would make. I said with my theory about Carnifex (which originated this whole issue, i wanna remind you all) that Ka actually took some dinos and gave them a chance to evolve into thinking beings, capable of building tools and wield magic. I didn't say he created Carnifex and annihilated dinos: there were still dinos roaming Mystara when the Carnifex achieved their peak; does this qualify for your above definition? >>- the creation of Beastmen by Hel >Introduction of a new species, though the original stock (humans, etc.) is left intact. That's the perfect example for my Carnifex theory. In this case, Hel took SOULS and placed them in human bodies, modificating them and creating a new race alongside the humans. In the Carnifex case, Ka modified the brain of some saurials to let them acquire self-awareness and reach a satisfying cultural level that allowed them to create a real language, and then to create their culture, who lived alongside the other dinosaurs! Ka didn't even messed with souls, but yet you still think that the Beastmen are acceptable (includin their evolution span) whereas Carnifex are not: frankly i don't see the point.. >Thanatos doesn't play by the rules, and he and Ranivorus (his partner) were both summarily punished, as were the Nithians. Since Thanatos subtly influenced them and the Nithians deliberately chose their own path, as u say, then he made no real intereference. Referring to what Kaviyd said: So in this case Than and Ran are not DIRECTLY interfering with Mystara any more than Rad... but yet the Immortals deemed logical to eradicate a whole culture to save the world from Thanatos' schemes: and that is direct intervention! Creation of a new race can be considered not against the One Rule, but what about DESTRUCTION of one race or culture? And again: do you think that Immortals will have to erase from the face of Mystara the Hattian or possibly the whole Thyatian culture, should Thanatos be able to fulfill his masterplan involving Count Heinrich Oesterhaus (he could seize the throne of Thyatis, he or his son, and cast a dark shadow over the empire just like Taphose of the Nithians..)? >but IMO, Kagyar simply insured that a portion of the dwarf race (modified) would survive, even if the original race didn't. That's to say: he deliberately decided the dwarves were worth surviving on the outer world and he saved them. Who gave him this authority? The Council of Mystara...? But shouldn't the Council work for the preservation of all the species, even the corrupt ones? It doesn't seem to me... In this view, the HW is only a means of soothing the Immortals' conscience for what they've done to Mystaran history and species. DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:44:18 +0200 From: DM Subject: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) At 14.31 07/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >The difference, as you note, would be that the Immortals could go back and "set right what once went wrong"- which leads me to believe that they could, a) have Quantum Leapers: mortals who they jump around in time to fix things, a la Dr. Sam Beckett, and/or b) these Immortal inquisitors could be the Mystaran equivalent of "Men in Black", who go around and pose as official investigators questioning the activities of mortals ("We're with the DDC Special Task Force on Unidentified Activity" flash a quick badge "May we speak with you a moment?") >The Time Variance Authority (I'm stealing the term from Walt Simonson's Fantastic Four run) could be made up of Time Immortals or a combination of Immortals, under the jurisdiction of Immortals in the Sphere of Time. This is a really nice hypothesis, but the problem is that even if they travel back in time and change that particular event, there will always be another reality (NOT dimension) where those change didn't occur... and what will be the repercussions of this reality on the "official" Mystara reality?? However, i think the idea you suggested for Quantum Leapers and Men in Black has to be taken into account... But think about this: how would be then considered those mortals who travel back and forward in time to fulfill their Trial for the Sphere of Time by these monitors? Would they be allowed or not? DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 03:11:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997, DM wrote: >Pardon????? He didn't create the dwarves, but he did create a new race? Maybe you wanted to say: he didn't create the Kogolor Dwarves but he did create the Rockhome Dwarves, which now predominate on Mystara's surface. So, what's the difference? What I mean is that he caused the creation of an offshoot dwarven race, that existed independently of the original dwarven race. Introduced a new element, but didn't interfere in the progress of the original race. >>there is no reason to suppose he didn't leave some on the outer world, unmodified, to continue their attempts at survival. >Yes, maybe he did, but creating the other better and stouter race he automatically condemned the old dwarvish race to extinction. Let me make an example: the Homo Abilis is the Kogolor Dwarf and the Homo Sapiens the Rockhome Dwarf. Obviously the first hasn't got a chance to stand against the second one... So, we can say that Kagyar actually modified a race creating a new one, and thus caused the downfall of the first one, or if u want, caused the predominance of the second one... The SAME thing i was TRYING to SAY about CARNIFEX and DINOSAURS!!!!! I don't see where you get that, by creating a new race, Kagyar _caused_ the downfall of the original. He created a new group of dwarves, which he placed in Rockhome, far from any other dwarves. The original dwarves were left in place (assuming there were some left, as we are). The Rockhome dwarves are not competing for resources with the Kogolor dwarves, hence, they are not _automatically_ going to die out. If they die out, which they did, it was due to already existing conditions (radioactive fallout) that were created by a mortal event, not an Immortal event. Hence, no direct interference in the destruction of a race, hence your point about the Carnifex and Dinosaurs doesn't bear the same analogy. >>Though they may have subsequently died off (and IMC, I have survivors of it, warped and twisted, still around; IMC also, the Modrigswerg are actually descendants of these dwarves)- though they may have died off, Kagyar didn't directly interfere with them. >He took some of their specimen and modificated them to improve their resistance to magic and diseases, thus giving an edge to the chosen ones: is that not interfering with normal evolution? Only interfering with the normal evolution of the particular offshoot of a race he created. You seem to be missing the point I am making. Introduction of a new race, while leaving the original intact, is not direct interference in the progression of the original race. >>I would say that the introduction of a new race isn't as direct an interference as the altering/hastening of evolution/destruction of an already existing race. >Perfect! So Kagyar is responsible of ALTERING old dwarves and he's thus guilty of INTERFERENCE with mortals! But (as per my argument above) he didn't alter _all_ Kogolor dwarves. He put some in the Hollow World, altered some and planted them in Rockhome (a new species), and left the others to their natural fate elsewhere. He didn't interfere with the original race's ability to pull themselves out of the decline they had fallen into due to mortal events, nor did he cause said events. He simply created conditions where a certain offshoot of their race would survive elsewhere- an offshoot, I note, that he hasn't altered or changed in any way since. They progress along their own natural path, though their initial conception was set in progress by him. >And besides, i don't think that "to create a new race is not so unbalancing in a world like Mystara" as u suggest. Remeber that the ecosystem of a planet depends on the species that live there, and so the more the species, the more the possible interaactions among them, the more likely is that some of the predominate and others become extinct... And yet it isn't nearly as unbalancing as the ability to spontaneously destroy any race on the planet, or to introduce a new race that is at a certain level of cultural development (such as introducing a green skinned race of near-men who have access to powerful technology, for instance.) I've already noted that it is a fine distinction between interference and experimentation. >I said with my theory about Carnifex (which originated this whole issue, i wanna remind you all) that Ka actually took some dinos and gave them a chance to evolve into thinking beings, capable of building tools and wield magic. I didn't say he created Carnifex and annihilated dinos: there were still dinos roaming Mystara when the Carnifex achieved their peak; does this qualify for your above definition? Sure it does. As I recall, at this point, we were mainly arguing over the length of time such a change might need to take place. >>>- the creation of Beastmen by Hel >>Introduction of a new species, though the original stock (humans, etc.) is left intact. >That's the perfect example for my Carnifex theory. In this case, Hel took SOULS and placed them in human bodies, modificating them and creating a new race alongside the humans. In the Carnifex case, Ka modified the brain of some saurials to let them acquire self-awareness and reach a satisfying cultural level that allowed them to create a real language, and then to create their culture, who lived alongside the other dinosaurs! Ka didn't even messed with souls, but yet you still think that the Beastmen are acceptable (includin their evolution span) whereas Carnifex are not: frankly i don't see the point.. Recheck your argument up there. You say that Hel placed souls in already human bodies, ie bodies that were based on a race that already existed. They had the software and the hardware already to use (and one could make the argument that they still don't use it as well as they could; the notorious "stupid humanoid" stereotype.) In your other example, you say that Ka "modified the brain of some saurials". He didn't just use what was already there, and had already evolved naturally. He directly changed pre-existing conditions in order to create a new race. Rather different from what Hel did. >So in this case Than and Ran are not DIRECTLY interfering with Mystara any more than Rad... but yet the Immortals deemed logical to eradicate a whole culture to save the world from Thanatos' schemes: and that is direct intervention! Creation of a new race can be considered not against the One Rule, but what about DESTRUCTION of one race or culture? As others have pointed out, the canon isn't entirely clear on who did the destroying here, either; the Nithians themselves, or the Immortals. I believe it is also noted, in a few places, that the Nithians had become too powerful; that they threatened not only the other people of Mystara, but the planet itself. In that case, I think the Immortals can certainly (and probably not without much deliberation) make the choice to save the world and destroy a culture, rather than let the whole thing go to pot. In any event, the entire culture wasn't destroyed. There are still remnants of the Nithian empire in Ylaruam (though they don't recall much of their glory days), as well as the Thothian colony on the Isle of Dawn. >And again: do you think that Immortals will have to erase from the face of Mystara the Hattian or possibly the whole Thyatian culture, should Thanatos be able to fulfill his masterplan involving Count Heinrich Oesterhaus (he could seize the throne of Thyatis, he or his son, and cast a dark shadow over the empire just like Taphose of the Nithians..)? I think the Nithian Incident was an isolated one, and the decisions reached in that incident are not likely to be made again. >>but IMO, Kagyar simply insured that a portion of the dwarf race (modified) would survive, even if the original race didn't. >That's to say: he deliberately decided the dwarves were worth surviving on the outer world and he saved them. Who gave him this authority? The Council of Mystara...? But shouldn't the Council work for the preservation of all the species, even the corrupt ones? It doesn't seem to me... I don't see where one argument follows the other. Kagyar performed an experiment- he created an offshoot of the original dwarven race that would survive on the surface, regardless of whether the original race did or not. Something that is completely within the realms of the view of the Prime Directive that I've been arguing. Why should the Council work for the preservation of all species? The whole point I'm trying to make is that they allow species to determine their own fates. They may initiate the creation/introduction of a species, as they experiment, but once done, the fate of that species is its own. >In this view, the HW is only a means of soothing the Immortals' conscience for what they've done to Mystaran history and species. Not as I see it. The HW stands as a museum for the Immortals; a place they can watch and recall favored cultures and races who no longer exist as they once did. Change is inevitable, but with the HW, the Immortals at least, can engage in a bit of nostalgia. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #71 **************************** Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:01:18 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #72 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, May 8 1997 Volume 02 : Number 072 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 04:52:11 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) On Thu, 8 May 1997, DM wrote: >This is a really nice hypothesis, but the problem is that even if they travel back in time and change that particular event, there will always be another reality (NOT dimension) where those change didn't occur... and what will be the repercussions of this reality on the "official" Mystara reality?? That's if you buy into the "parallel universe" theory, which I personally don't. (How's that for getting out of an argument? ;) >However, i think the idea you suggested for Quantum Leapers and Men in Black has to be taken into account... But think about this: how would be then considered those mortals who travel back and forward in time to fulfill their Trial for the Sphere of Time by these monitors? Would they be allowed or not? Interesting question. I don't know. I suppose it could be said that, since the Dynasts must quest into the future, and not the past, that they do not therefore fall under the jurisdiction of the Quantum Leapers; however, it seems to me, then, that their future actions would determine the course of future events, and thus their actions in the future of the timestream would fall under the jurisdiction of the Quantum Leapers- ie, whatever future actions they took would have to be protected from alteration by the QL's. It's the Mobius Loop time theory (or, as I like to call it, the "Bill and Ted Time Theory")- time is like a mobius loop; everything that has happened and/or will happen and/or is happening, has already/will already/is already happening. Can't make any changes, since everything that is to be done has already occurred... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 04:58:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Manacapuru and Yuan-ti While we're still (at least kind of) talking about the Yuan-ti and Manacapuru (which everyone seems to have pretty much adopted as the actual basis for that culture; I am really starting to like it myself, though I wasn't too sure at first- that whole AD&D vs. D&D thing. ;) Has anyone put any thought into what sort of mystical power the Manacapuru possess that nearly enabled them to bring the Princess Ark down to earth? (This is demonstrated in an early issue of the PA; the one in which the Manacapuru- not named- are first mentioned.) It was only through the intervention of Berylith- still only half-conscious, that the PA was able to get away, as I recall. Any thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 06:36:56 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Manacapuru and Yuan-ti At 04:58 AM 5/8/97 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: WWhile we're still (at least kind of) talking about the Yuan-ti and Manacapuru (which everyone seems to have pretty much adopted as the actual basis for that culture; I am really starting to like it myself, though I wasn't too sure at first- that whole AD&D vs. D&D thing. ;) What makes you think everyone, or even most people, have adopted that? I find it interesting to read about, but it's not a part of my campaign. / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:30:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-08 09:34:27 EDT, you write: << Pardon????? He didn't create the dwarves, but he did create a new race? Maybe you wanted to say: he didn't create the Kogolor Dwarves but he did create the Rockhome Dwarves, which now predominate on Mystara's surface. So, what's the difference? >> Actually, quoting from Canon: "BC1,800: The dwarvish race on the outer world is slowly,inevitably dying out. The Immortal called Kagyar the Artisan takes *all* remaining dwarves in the known world. *Half* he transplants to the Hollow World, and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are **no** remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world". Endquote. [Hollow World DM's Sourcebook pg 13, corroborated on pg 52) This mostly is about the competition argument. There was none, officially, because as mentioned the only remaining Dwarves *were* the Rockhome Dwarves. That's Official. Note also the "slowly, **inevititbly**" part. There was a choice: let them die away or fix them so that they might survive. So they were fixed. IMC, as in Drews, there WERE some other Dwarves that were left out there, again Non-Canon.These were the predecessors of the Korobokuru of Ochalea; they had retreated beneath the surface of that isle during the GRoF, and had been mutated by its effects so much that a) they were no longer recognizable as the same race as the Original Dwarves, and b) they were no longer genetically susceptible to the disease that was causing the deaths of the Original Dwarves (definitely an aspect of my campaign). Thus, my explanation actually can "fit" into Canon, as they were no longer in truth members of the Original Dwarven Race... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:37:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-08 09:34:27 EDT, you write: << And again: do you think that Immortals will have to erase from the face of Mystara the Hattian or possibly the whole Thyatian culture, should Thanatos be able to fulfill his masterplan involving Count Heinrich Oesterhaus (he could seize the throne of Thyatis, he or his son, and cast a dark shadow over the empire just like Taphose of the Nithians..)? >> Possibly, if the Empire becomes enough of a threat to the stability and existence of Mystara... but the BIG difference here is that in the case of the Good Count, that is a Mortal Form being used by Thanatos, and most likely in the end his DIRECT involvement will be discovered, and his plot stopped (regardless of whether it was in Mortal or Manifestation form, a mere technicality if the Council of Mystara was upset enough). Most likely, as long as Thanatos simply used the Mortal ID of the Count, the other Immortals would only send other Mortals to deal with the situation; but if Tahatos started getting truly Medieval, if you know what I mean, then they would have to directly interfere (though something so simple as a few extra potions of healing given to the Old Count at the right time before his encounter with the (presumably) Mortal ID of Thanatos would probably help keep the old count alive, and stop it before it even happened. A good example of how time travel and the parallels are dealt with is found in Robert Heinlein's "Lazarus Long" stories, most notably the later ones where he hops all over time. I highly recommend them to anyone who wants to deal effectively with various vagaries of the time stream (NOTE: a lot of them deal with "Mature" subject matter)... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:55:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-08 09:59:00 EDT, you write: << How did Thanatos and Ranivorus not play by the rules, though? If all he did was corrupt the Nithians (mainly through their pharaoh) then they most certainly did not deserve to be eradicated as they were, given the non-interference rule.>> Well, it was never really spelled out directly, but taking the info from HWR2, page 2 of the DM's Tome, the Pharaoh Taphose (or IMC Thanorisre; IMC "Taphose" is a bastardization of the Milenians and Thyatians, who never spoke Nithian all that well :) had to turn to Entropy to "save" his empire; you se, it was already collapsing, and the corruption of the Pharaoh, in my interpretaion, was merely the high point of that corruption. The way I read it, the various Feudal Lords (Barons, what have you; I call them Kings) all had started fighting amongst each other. Why? Well, they had ALREADY been corrupted by Thanatos! After all, their realms were nothing more than "benign dictatorships to ... despotic... duchies". Sure sounds like Entropy to me! So, IMC, thanatos and his allies (which included at least Ranivorous, and Loki as well) corrupted the entire upper classes of the Empire (nobles, priests, mages, etc.), which was the organizational strength of the Empire. When these groups all started fighting for power, eventually the Pharaoh had to turn somewhere, and being "forced to fight fire with fire", he turned to Thanatos... another Iitem I have to get done is my complete history of the Nithina Empire. I posted my own Origins of the Nithian Empire a while back, and I've been so busy lately I've only gotten halfway through the 1st Dynasty... so eventually, I will post or otherwise make available my own take on Nithia... Mystaros I don't think there is sufficient evidence that the Kogolor were going to die out entirely - in the HW set it is more that Kagyar is disappointed with their lack of resistances. >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:04:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-08 09:59:00 EDT, you write: << How did Thanatos and Ranivorus not play by the rules, though? If all he did was corrupt the Nithians (mainly through their pharaoh) then they most certainly did not deserve to be eradicated as they were, given the non-interference rule.>> Well, it was never really spelled out directly, but taking the info from HWR2, page 2 of the DM's Tome, the Pharaoh Taphose (or IMC Thanorisre; IMC "Taphose" is a bastardization of the Milenians and Thyatians, who never spoke Nithian all that well :) had to turn to Entropy to "save" his empire; you se, it was already collapsing, and the corruption of the Pharaoh, in my interpretaion, was merely the high point of that corruption. The way I read it, the various Feudal Lords (Barons, what have you; I call them Kings) all had started fighting amongst each other. Why? Well, they had ALREADY been corrupted by Thanatos! After all, their realms were nothing more than "benign dictatorships to ... despotic... duchies". Sure sounds like Entropy to me! So, IMC, thanatos and his allies (which included at least Ranivorous, and Loki as well) corrupted the entire upper classes of the Empire (nobles, priests, mages, etc.), which was the organizational strength of the Empire. When these groups all started fighting for power, eventually the Pharaoh had to turn somewhere, and being "forced to fight fire with fire", he turned to Thanatos... another Iitem I have to get done is my complete history of the Nithina Empire. I posted my own Origins of the Nithian Empire a while back, and I've been so busy lately I've only gotten halfway through the 1st Dynasty... so eventually, I will post or otherwise make available my own take on Nithia... Mystaros I don't think there is sufficient evidence that the Kogolor were going to die out entirely - in the HW set it is more that Kagyar is disappointed with their lack of resistances. >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:59:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Thu, 8 May 1997, DM wrote: >>>>- the creation of Beastmen by Hel >>>Introduction of a new species, though the original stock (humans, etc.) is left intact. >>That's the perfect example for my Carnifex theory. In this case, Hel took SOULS and placed them in human bodies, modificating them and creating a new race alongside the humans. In the Carnifex case, Ka modified the brain of some saurials to let them acquire self-awareness and reach a satisfying cultural level that allowed them to create a real language, and then to create their culture, who lived alongside the other dinosaurs! Ka didn't even messed with souls, but yet you still think that the Beastmen are acceptable (includin their evolution span) whereas Carnifex are not: frankly i don't see the point.. >Recheck your argument up there. You say that Hel placed souls in already human bodies, ie bodies that were based on a race that already existed. They had the software and the hardware already to use (and one could make the argument that they still don't use it as well as they could; the notorious "stupid humanoid" stereotype.) Is this canon? Does it say that Hel used Human bodies? My theory was that she used the bodies of Jotuns, extraplanar critters of Entrophy (actually the badguys of Norse Mythology aka Giants/trolls) As for the Thanatos in Nithia part: Nightstorm, HWA3 indicates that Thanatos was directly responsible for the creation of the Gnolls, He didn't do it but he told some nithian Wiz to do so. But thats probably not intervension unless he used his manifestation form..Just thought I'd mention it.. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:45:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits On Thu, 8 May 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >After digging up that info from Lathan's Gold the other day, I decided to go back and check out a few other modules that don't often get mentioned: M1 and M2 (not the Master series), the two Invisible Ink modules. Here is some stuff I gleaned: >M1- Blizzard Pass >We are introduced to a new "God"/Immortal- Stodos, the toadlike god. Known as the "Master of the Icy Wastes" by his followers, he is said to live in a lifeless, frozen wasteland, and he seeks to spread his icy realm throughout the world (I'm guessing he'd be an Entropic. :) He bestows power over the elements to his clerics, who wear black and red robes, and wear medallions with a toad engraved on them. He is apparently active in the Five Shires/Darokin area (Blizzard Pass is the mountain pass between- I think- Hinmeet and... erm, some Hin town in the Shires). He also has associations with humanoids (notably, Kobolds, Troglodytes) and Cave Toads and Snow Apes and humans. >Any ideas on where else Mr. Toad might be active? I'm thinking he probably has followings in the Hyborean regions, for one... Probably in all polar regions. Could he be a Croaking Fiend? Or is he too powerful for that. Can fiends grant spells to their followers. Maybe he was a fiend, but gained true immortality (if that is possible?) >M2- Maze of the Riddling Minotaur >(Very interesting stuff here...) >The Island of Vacros- 400 years ago, this volcanic isle was the center of a vast mercantile empire. It fell under the corruption of Kiranjo a bull-headed god/Immortal (Possibly another name for Gylgarid, from X13?), who imported a lot of minotaurs. It eventually fell to the forces of... >Lady Durnsay, of Cathos city. Cathos is a nearby island, that was subject to piracy by the Vacrosians. They got fed up and destroyed them, 400 years ago. >Where to place these? I'm thinking that perhaps somewhere near the Minaen Coast or in that general Bellisaria/Minaea area. The culture depicted seems vaguely Greek (and not just because of the Minotaurs), and since Minaea was founded by Milenian refugees, perhaps this could explain their cultural elements? Anyone else? What is the origin of Minotaurs on Mystara? The Nithians could have created them as another servitor race. Acoording to one of the HW modules a nithian names Augar(who is a major NPC IMC) was changed into a Minotaur by Nithian magic. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:09:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-08 09:59:00 EDT, you write: Just for claritys sake, could you,in the fute indicate who "you" are?(in the previous sentence). Thanks >Nithina Empire. I posted my own Origins of the Nithian Empire a while back, and I've been so busy lately I've only gotten halfway through the 1st Dynasty... so eventually, I will post or otherwise make available my own take on Nithia... Are your prevous postings available on web? I think Ive got most of them saved, and I am thinking of commenting on them when I get to meditate over the matters dicussed. >I don't think there is sufficient evidence that the Kogolor were going to die out entirely - in the HW set it is more that Kagyar is disappointed with their lack of resistances. >> My interpretation is that their destruction was inevitable, but Im not sure what HW actually says. Are you saying Kagyar is some sort of Nazi? ;) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 03:18:00 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] Summer Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >How active is this list during summer? >Last summer I ended my subscription to avoid getting my inbox filled with mails that I couldn't check before next semester, but now I can check my mail at home (not just at the university), and I will probably partcipate on the list, since I'll get more time. Are there usually people on the list during summer, or will most of you not get any mails posted during this period? I mainly thinking about the period July-August, in which I'll be around most of the time except for a short trip to Italy (!) RRemember.. it's no summer in evry part of the world... I'll continue in the list like the few peoples of the South Emisphere ... - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:23:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits In a message dated 97-05-08 12:44:55 EDT, you write: << What is the origin of Minotaurs on Mystara? The Nithians could have created them as another servitor race. Acoording to one of the HW modules a nithian names Augar(who is a major NPC IMC) was changed into a Minotaur by Nithian magic >> Officially, the Minotaurs of Mystara are originally fallen Enduks who had their wings taken away. I think there's something about that in Dragon #200... I'll have to check. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:23:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: AAs >"Tfollowers of Ilsundal were the forebears of virtually all the Elves of the known world", it would be safe to presume that the Elves of the Foresthomes and the Elves of Wendar are descended from the Elves of the long Migration (of course, the Shadow Elves were another matter, but that was noted in passing in the timeline). So its pretty safe to say that the Norwold Elves were descended from the Elves of Ilsundal... unless, of course, in your campaign you decide otherwise! Which is perfectly valid. According to the first Poor Wizard's Almanac, Wendarian elves were actually some of the original Evergrun colonists near Blackmoor. Somehow the elves of Wendar survived the cataclysms, though they were reduced to savages and forgot that part of their history... Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:13:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Minotaurs (was: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits) On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-08 12:44:55 EDT, you write: ><< What is the origin of Minotaurs on Mystara? The Nithians could have ccreated them as another servitor race. Acoording to one of the HW modules a nithian names Augar(who is a major NPC IMC) was changed into a Minotaur by Nithian magic >> >Officially, the Minotaurs of Mystara are originally fallen Enduks who had their wings taken away. I think there's something about that in Dragon #200... I'll have to check. I think you are right. I forgot about that one moment. How many Minotaurs are there actually in Mystara? I dont thionk they should be scattered all over the world. Its seems a bit silly if all the races should be found in all corners of Mystara for no apparent reason. I also think its sad that they are so stupid. I like the krynnish Minotaurs who have a sense of honor. 6 is low... Augar, the ex nithian Minotaur(IMC) has had his INT raised due to a magical item. I like him better that way. I am considering letting himDate: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:01:18 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #72 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk play a major role in the future of Mystaran Minotaurs. I once thought of letting him create a Minotaur Kingdom on monster Island, but Ive discarded that idea. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:55:19 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: PPossibly, if the Empire becomes enough of a threat to the stability and existence of Mystara... but the BIG difference here is that in the case of the Good Count, that is a Mortal Form being used by Thanatos, and most likely in the end his DIRECT involvement will be discovered, and his plot stopped (regardless of whether it was in Mortal or Manifestation form, a mere technicality if the Council of Mystara was upset enough). Most likely, as long as Thanatos simply used the Mortal ID of the Count, the other Immortals would only send other Mortals to deal with the situation; but if Tahatos started getting truly Medieval, if you know what I mean, then they would have to directly interfere (though something so simple as a few extra potions of healing given to the Old Count at the right time before his encounter with the (presumably) Mortal ID of Thanatos would probably help keep the old count alive, and stop it before it even happened. I disagree. I don't think the Immortals would ever interfere with Thyatis unless something truly world-destroying was to come about. The Nithians were destroyed by the Immortals (most sources agree on this one way or another - some suggest direct intervention others indirect, such as diverting the headwaters of the River Nithia) because they developed some REALLY nasty destructive magic which could have had a catastrophic effect on the world. This is not my opinion or IMC, it's from canonical sources. (In actual fact I always thought the destruction of Nithia was a bit steep and required some explanation.) Secondly, if Thanatos was to take control of a mortal nation *IN MORTAL FORM*, the Immortals would not do a thing about it. For a start, if Thanatos is smart (which he is) he will have his mortal identity an avatar, so he won't have to keep disappearing back to the outer planes. Thus the other Immortals will find it hard (impossible?) to discover his true identity. Secondly, he would not be wielding Immortal power on the prime plane if he was using his mortal identity, so even if he manages to "corrupt" things an awful lot, there is nothing the other Immortals can do except use their own mortal identities. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:16:57 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] The Black Vessel I just finished reading the Savage Coast novel "The Black Vessel", and I must say I am impressed. It really did instill me with an interest in the Savage Coast and the Red Curse far beyond what I had before... What's more, I enjoyed the characterisation very much - up until very near the end it is not entirely clear how things are going to work out, nor indeed who the real heroes and villains are, though there are certain characters I was "rooting" for. :-) Does anyone else have an opinion on the book? I heartily recommend it to anyone even vaguely interested in the Savage Coast and in swashbuckling heroes and reclusive old wizards. ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:03:47 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits On Thu, 8 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: PProbably in all polar regions. Could he be a Croaking Fiend? Or is he too powerful for that. Can fiends grant spells to their followers. Maybe he was a fiend, but gained true immortality (if that is possible?) Remember that in old Immortals rules, when that module was written, a Croaking Demon WAS an Immortal... hence GAZ13 describes Atzanteotl as a Roaring Demon. (The name Demon was changed to Fiend in WotI to fit in with the policy of removing all possibly offensive material.) >What is the origin of Minotaurs on Mystara? The Nithians could have created them as another servitor race. Acoording to one of the HW modules a nithian names Augar(who is a major NPC IMC) was changed into a Minotaur by Nithian magic. According to Bruce Heard's article in Dragon #200 about the Arm of the Immortals (which btw I loved, Bruce ;-), the minotaurs were bad enduks who lost their wings. (Or something like that, I don't have the article with me.) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:48:15 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: <<< Pardon????? He didn't create the dwarves, but he did create a new race? MMaybe you wanted to say: he didn't create the Kogolor Dwarves but he did create the Rockhome Dwarves, which now predominate on Mystara's surface. So, what's the difference? >> >Actually, quoting from Canon: "BC1,800: The dwarvish race on the outer world is slowly,inevitably dying out. The Immortal called Kagyar the Artisan takes *all* remaining dwarves in the known world. *Half* he transplants to the Hollow World, and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are **no** remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world". Endquote. [Hollow World DM's Sourcebook pg 13, corroborated on pg 52) Nice how you go one way one minute then whirl back round and quote from an official source to support your new argument. >This mostly is about the competition argument. There was none, officially, because as mentioned the only remaining Dwarves *were* the Rockhome Dwarves. That's Official. Note also the "slowly, **inevititbly**" part. There was a choice: let them die away or fix them so that they might survive. So they were fixed. >IMC, as in Drews, there WERE some other Dwarves that were left out there, again Non-Canon.These were the predecessors of the Korobokuru of Ochalea; they had retreated beneath the surface of that isle during the GRoF, and had been mutated by its effects so much that a) they were no longer recognizable as the same race as the Original Dwarves, and b) they were no longer genetically susceptible to the disease that was causing the deaths of the Original Dwarves (definitely an aspect of my campaign). Thus, my explanation actually can "fit" into Canon, as they were no longer in truth members of the Original Dwarven Race... You really did not make it clear that what you were arguing with was not canonical, WAS NOT EVEN EXTRAPOLATED FROM CANONICAL SOURCES, and was in fact a fabrication for your campaign (FYC! ;-). This is what I was talking about earlier. You can stamp all over the so-called canonical sources as much as you like, you can "extrapolate" as much as you like in what YOU BELIEVE is a logical manner, but it is a bit naive to assume everyone will accept your extrapolations as semi- canonical. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:01:44 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: <<< How did Thanatos and Ranivorus not play by the rules, though? If all he ddid was corrupt the Nithians (mainly through their pharaoh) then they most certainly did not deserve to be eradicated as they were, given the non-interference rule.>> >Well, it was never really spelled out directly, but taking the info from HWR2, page 2 of the DM's Tome, the Pharaoh Taphose (or IMC Thanorisre; IMC "Taphose" is a bastardization of the Milenians and Thyatians, who never spoke Nithian all that well :) had to turn to Entropy to "save" his empire; you se, it was already collapsing, and the corruption of the Pharaoh, in my interpretaion, was merely the high point of that corruption. The way I read it, the various Feudal Lords (Barons, what have you; I call them Kings) all had started fighting amongst each other. Why? Well, they had ALREADY been corrupted by Thanatos! After all, their realms were nothing more than "benign dictatorships to ... despotic... duchies". Sure sounds like Entropy to me! So, IMC, thanatos and his allies (which included at least Ranivorous, and Loki as well) corrupted the entire upper classes of the Empire (nobles, priests, mages, etc.), which was the organizational strength of the Empire. When these groups all started fighting for power, eventually the Pharaoh had to turn somewhere, and being "forced to fight fire with fire", he turned to Thanatos... another Iitem I have to get done is my complete history of the Nithina Empire. I posted my own Origins of the Nithian Empire a while back, and I've been so busy lately I've only gotten halfway through the 1st Dynasty... so eventually, I will post or otherwise make available my own take on Nithia... None of this is new to me, especially given my recent encounter with HWR2 in trying to "sanitize" its timeline in a canonical way. (Which by the way is impossible without help from TSR at this point.) You still did not answer even part of my question. Thanatos and Ranivorus may have corrupted the Nithian Empire, but that only means they meddled as Immortals are allowed to do. There is no evidence to support a theory of direct intervention on their part, therefore there seems to be little justification to the Immortals' destructive measures beyond plain and simple jealousy and revenge. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:41:43 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Hollow World - Immortal insurance policy? On Thu, 8 May 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >Not as I see it. The HW stands as a museum for the Immortals; a place they can watch and recall favored cultures and races who no longer exist as they once did. Change is inevitable, but with the HW, the Immortals at least, can engage in a bit of nostalgia. I always thought that the Hollow World stood as a museum which ensured all Immortals involved eternal faith... ;-) (JOKE!) It is true, though. Any Immortal can ensure himself eternal faith just by putting a culture in which his worship is very important into the Hollow World. Interesting... Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:45:30 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Interference On Wed, 7 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: <<< Keyword here: "MY". It simply is not fair to argue points like this uusing examples from your campaign, because that is not where people are coming from when they bring up points like this.>> >It most certainly IS fair to argue points using campaign materials that work within Canonical boundaries IF you are trying to interpret the materials at hand. Without extrapolation and evolution of concepts, there can BE no interpretation, as the only materials to be dealt with are then the source which is the problematical material being discussed. Without having tested the validity and boundaries of the various historical or cultural "values" (which the One Rule is certainly a cultural "Value"), outside the basic materials, there would be nothing to debate or discuss! Now, what I have tried to emphasize by stating numerous times is that my material is NOT Canon or that it is IMC, is that it is an extrapolation of the Canonical materials, which, considering the scant nature of the Canonical materia being discussed, extrapolated (otherwise, non-Canonical campaign material) is required to debate the issue! Interpret and extraoplate! That is what is to be done with the material in order to allow it to reach its full potential! While I have seen a number of people claim that "it is not so" simply because they state it is not, I must say that I have not seen valid argumenets to the contrary, merely simple naysaying. I have been developing my Mystara campaign for well over a decade now, in fact, ever since it premiered in 1981 as a simple wildernes area in the first Expert set, adapting and adopting the materials that have come out since, and always remaining in the spirit of Canon if not in the word. Therefore, I would say that while my material is not Canon, it certainly should hold some weight as simple, educated, reasonable adjunct material.... :) You are wrong. You CAN interpret sources and have meaningful discussions without resorting to extrapolations and such. Extrapolations generally involve people's personal campaigns, which often are not compatible or even of interest beyond a simple "this is how I do things" way to others. I'm not saying you shouldn't post things specific to your campaign to the list, just that you shouldn't always expect others to accept your extrapolations and accept your using them in discussions. ><< The destruction of the Nithians is MOST DEFINITELY an example of bad IImmortal interference. It doesn't matter if you explained it in your own campaign - it is only relevant insofar as talking about solutions, which is something many of us are not interested in.>> >Actually, even in Canonical material the Nithian Empire was not destroyed by the Immortals, Thanatos corrupted them and they destroyed THEMSELVES (HWR2). Of course, that material was not at all in sync with prior material which stated that the Immortals DID finish the Empire off... but, IMC (there's that abbreviation again!) I went halfway, and had the Nithians pretty much finish themsevles off, and then had the Immortals clean up the little bits that were left, which is an interpretation of the Canonical materials that falls within all of the Canonical "requirements"... Yes, HWR2 does say that the Nithians destroyed themselves, but the Immortals still cast their Spell of Oblivion on the remains - which, unless they quite literally COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY destroyed themselves, to the last person, which seems very, very unlikely, destroyed all trace of the Nithians. Now, the colonies (notably on the Savage Coast) presumably weren't involved so much in this, and yet, according to prior sources as well as later sources (the Savage Coast timelines), the Immortals systematically destroyed all of the colonies. So your "interpretation" is actually just adding all of the sources together in a way that they don't conflict - which is fine. Besides, I'm not so sure that the sources do conflict. The later ones just add bits in, that's all. >Again, this is all IYC (wow, another new abbreviation!). In actual fact all we know is that Kagyar was disappointed with the dwarves, and changed them into "better" dwarves. There is no evidence to support the contention that they would have evolved into their current form. >> >Actually, the reconstruction of the Dwarves was not due to Kagyar's "disappointment" in them, it was because they were dying out! Refer to HW DMS pg 12 and 52; Okay, but you that doesn't change my point - that there is no evidence that the dwarves were going to evolve into that new form, which is what was being argued over before. Anyway... >now, in GAZ6 it doesn't mention anything about the sickness... so what happened in between GAZ6 and the HW? EXTRAPOLATION! Cool, huh? Actually what happened between GAZ6 and the HW set was more probably *creation* rather than extrapolation. The way you are putting it, anything new is not made up, it is extrapolated. >Now of >course, it was Official Extrapolation, which meant that it was Canon, but just because extrapolation isn't official and isn't Canon doesn't mean that it isn't valid or doesn't fall within Canonical bounds. Right on the first count, wrong on the second. Yes it is valid, NO IT DOES NOT FIT WITHIN CANONICAL BOUNDS. You are suggesting that just because the stuff you made up - oh sorry, extrapolated - fits in with the canonical stuff it is semi-canonical. This is not true. The ONLY canonical stuff is the stuff printed by TSR. Sure it fits within "canonical bounds", but that doesn't make it any more valid - for discussions of "canonical" material or otherwise. >In fact, as far as I >am aware, everything I have ever written falls perfectly well within Canonical bounds. Extrapolation: To Infer Unknown Information from Known Information. That's all I'm doing... If you want to put it that way, that is what most people do when they add to their campaign world(s). But usually I would define it as a little bit of creating AS WELL AS a little bit of extrapolating. Extrapolation involves inferring unknown information from known information, sure, but you can only do that to a certain extent. For example, making up a Nithian history is mostly creation, not extrapolation. What you are really doing is taking the history as you know it and adding bits to it that you think fit well. >Mystaros >BTW, IYC (I like that abbreviation), when, how and why did the Council of Mystara form? What are the origins of the Immortals? How are they tied to the Faerie races? I've shown pretty much the whens, hows and whys of my campaign, and so far everyone seems to just pound on it. Let me know how you wnet about it inYOUR campaigns, and convince me that I'm off... Not that this is a challenge, by any means, I'm honestly interested in how others have adapted and evolved and interpreted Mystara... The answer to all these questions is: I don't know. And more importantly I don't NEED to know. Why would I ever need to know when the Council of Mystara was formed? I find it highly unlikely that that will ever have any bearing on play - or anything else for that matter. But I can understand that you might need to create a date for it to help with your creations for your campaign. The origins of the Immortals are equally unnecessary for my campaign, and I would suggest unnecessary for the campaigns suggested in the D&D game. (Which is not to invalidate your campaign, nor your insatiable need to know everything that ever happened in your D&D world - if you want to do that, that's fine too.) Now, what you are asking to see from my (our) campaign(s) is something I just can't show you, because firstly my campaigns do not involve such painstaking detail as yours seem to (it would bore my players and I would rather spend my time writing adventures), and secondly my different campaigns all differ from the "canonical" template due to the influence of my players, even if it isn't that great an influence, and even in their early levels. Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #72 ****************************