Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:27:43 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #73 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, May 9 1997 Volume 02 : Number 073 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:11:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Manacapuru and Yuan-ti On Thu, 8 May 1997, David 'Azure' Leland wrote: [My Manacapuru/Yuan-ti commentary snipped- >What makes you think everyone, or even most people, have adopted that? I find it interesting to read about, but it's not a part of my campaign. Aha! Finally, a differing opinion. To be honest, one of the reasons I posted that was to see if it would generate a response... it's sometimes frustrating not to get any feedback from the list (notably on the Almanac; I would have liked to have seen more feedback on that). At any rate, as I noted, the only responses I've seen on the issue thus far have been in the positive aspect, and seemingly in favor of the Yuan-ti/Manacapuru connection. I didn't mean to imply at all that that necessarily made it canon; just that from the feedback thus far received, people on the list seem to be in favor of the idea. I'd surely like to hear other thoughts on the matter, myself. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:30:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-08 19:53:22 EDT, Curufin wrote: << Nithians were destroyed by the Immortals (most sources agree on this one way or another - some suggest direct intervention others indirect, such as diverting the headwaters of the River Nithia) because they developed some REALLY nasty destructive magic which could have had a catastrophic effect on the world. This is not my opinion or IMC, it's from canonical sources. (In actual fact I always thought the destruction of Nithia was a bit steep and required some explanation.) >> This is odd, since I thought the issue was my non-Canonical statements about this kind of thing... yet you are stating that you yourself do not agree with Canon. Now I am thoroughly confused... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:17:16 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: [On Hel placing souls in human bodies] >Is this canon? Does it say that Hel used Human bodies? My theory was that she used the bodies of Jotuns, extraplanar critters of Entrophy (actually the badguys of Norse Mythology aka Giants/trolls) I don't think it ever specifies that they were Human bodies (however mutated they might have become). So feel free to adapt whatever you want. As far as the argument went however, it was stated that Hel placed the souls in human bodies, and so that was the basis on which I was using to refute the claims of similarities between reincarnation and direct alteration of existing species. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:22:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: Minotaurs (was: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits) On Thu, 8 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >I think you are right. I forgot about that one moment. How many Minotaurs are there actually in Mystara? I dont thionk they should be scattered all over the world. Its seems a bit silly if all the races should be found in all corners of Mystara for no apparent reason. M2 states that the Minotaurs of Vacros were brought to the island, but it doesn't say from how far away. What this could be interpreted to mean is that the Minotaurs are not widespread (like so many other races), but that they had been specifically singled out and captured/lured/enticed to make the journey to Vacros. A nice way around the issue of mass migration of the species. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:19:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits On Thu, 8 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >>We are introduced to a new "God"/Immortal- Stodos, the toadlike god. >>Any ideas on where else Mr. Toad might be active? I'm thinking he probably has followings in the Hyborean regions, for one... >Probably in all polar regions. Could he be a Croaking Fiend? Or is he too powerful for that. Can fiends grant spells to their followers. Maybe he was a fiend, but gained true immortality (if that is possible?) He probably is a fiend. As others pointed out, originally all fiends/demons were Immortals, though with the current WotI, they have been dropped to Exalted status, with a few Entropic Immortals having the form of fiends (notably Alphaks, whose Manifestation form is that of a Roaring Fiend). If you go by the Gold Box, I'd call Stodos a Croaking Demon. By the WotI, he's an Entropic with the Croaking Demon as a Manifestation Form. (Which raises the question- are the Immortals manifestation forms modeled after the fiends, or vice versa?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:35:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-08 19:53:22 EDT, Curufin wrote: << Secondly, if Thanatos was to take control of a mortal nation *IN MORTAL FORM*, the Immortals would not do a thing about it. For a start, if Thanatos is smart (which he is) he will have his mortal identity an avatar, so he won't have to keep disappearing back to the outer planes. Thus the other Immortals will find it hard (impossible?) to discover his true identity. Secondly, he would not be wielding Immortal power on the prime plane if he was using his mortal identity, so even if he manages to "corrupt" things an awful lot, there is nothing the other Immortals can do except use their own mortal identities. >> Well, true, they most likely wouldn't go in themselves or take Immortal level action, especially if they didn't even know that it was Thanatos... but they certainly would be inspiring their OWN followers, or even as you say perhaps taking on Mortal ID's themselves to combat this utterly evil felow who has taken over the Empire. If Thanatos were to bring about another Nithia through his manipulation I think the Immortals WOULD interfere on an Immortal level, because as you said elsewhere the Nithians had some big bad weapons that threatened the world (Canonical, as you agreed), so if Thyatis reached that level, there would be nothing stopping the Immortals from stepping in to stop it... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:25:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >I disagree. I don't think the Immortals would ever interfere with Thyatis unless something truly world-destroying was to come about. The Nithians were destroyed by the Immortals (most sources agree on this one way or another - some suggest direct intervention others indirect, such as diverting the headwaters of the River Nithia) because they developed some REALLY nasty destructive magic which could have had a catastrophic effect on the world. This is not my opinion or IMC, it's from canonical sources. (In actual fact I always thought the destruction of Nithia was a bit steep and required some explanation.) I agree with you. I don't think anything like the destruction of Nithia will likely occur again anytime soon. I see it as a one time event- due to the development of mass destruction weapons, and the Immortals perceiving a threat to all life on Mystara. As I see it, it wasn't a decision that was reached lightly (they didn't just up and say, "Oh, think we'll blow up Nithia"), and after seeing the results of their decision, I don't think they'd opt to do such a thing again soon. They'd try to find another option. Immortals aren't infallible- they are capable of screwing up now and again. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:50:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) Another consideration for Immortal interference is, who will complain? When Kagyar decided to tinker with the Dwarves, for example, no other Immortal had cause to complain -- those who liked the Dwarves liked what he was doing to improve their chances of survival, while enemies of the Dwarves would fear only the effect that saving the Dwarves would have on their own pet races. The latter group of Immortals would have no grounds to complain, as Kagyar did not directly harm any other race. However, if he had decided to cause a major natural catastrophe in the Broken Lands that exterminated the goblinoids there and made room for a new race of Dwarves -- his Immortal enemies would have had grounds to complain and would have received the support of nearly all the other Immortals. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:36:23 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: <<<< Pardon????? He didn't create the dwarves, but he did create a new race? MMMaybe you wanted to say: he didn't create the Kogolor Dwarves but he did create the Rockhome Dwarves, which now predominate on Mystara's surface. So, what's the difference? >> >>Actually, quoting from Canon: "BC1,800: The dwarvish race on the outer world is slowly,inevitably dying out. The Immortal called Kagyar the Artisan takes *all* remaining dwarves in the known world. *Half* he transplants to the Hollow World, and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are **no** remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world". Endquote. [Hollow World DM's Sourcebook pg 13, corroborated on pg 52) >Nice how you go one way one minute then whirl back round and quote from an official source to support your new argument. Actually, Mystaros hadn't argued the above point before this; it isn't until below that he offers up a suggestion for surviving Kogolors. The "new race" question above was made by Dalmont in response to something I had said in an earlier post. Mystaros is just now pointing out that quote; he hasn't begun to introduce his new argument. (If there was another argument Mystaros made on this point earlier, then I am mistaken. That's the problem with these multi-person arguments; it becomes easy to forget who's arguing what, and when, and why. :) >This is what I was talking about earlier. You can stamp all over the so-called canonical sources as much as you like, you can "extrapolate" as much as you like in what YOU BELIEVE is a logical manner, but it is a bit naive to assume everyone will accept your extrapolations as semi- canonical. I think Mystaros is just offering up his point of view, and with his interpretations of why things are the way they are. IMO, he has been very clear in this, so long as one realizes that he is talking about his campaign (which he has since begun to indicate definitively, to clear up any such confusion). I don't think he is assuming anyone is going to accept his propositions out of hand; he just offers up his theories for discussion, which is exactly what we are here for. It's like the other post I made about "everyone seeming to accept the Yuan-ti/Manacapuru theory". As another pointed out (can't recall who, offhand, sorry), he hadn't accepted it, though he found it interesting. I would personally like to see posts agreeing with theories, and proposing new ideas, as I would like to see posts disagreeing, and thoughts on why things couldn't be this way. Which goes back to the original point of this whole thread- that being the time frame required for the Carnifex to have evolved to their historical state of being (as defined in M4: Twilight Calling). Personally, though I'll admit even on my side the commentary has gotten to a state of near heatedness, I've found the whole discussion interesting. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:47:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World - Immortal insurance policy? On Thu, 8 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >It is true, though. Any Immortal can ensure himself eternal faith just by putting a culture in which his worship is very important into the Hollow World. Interesting... That is an interesting thought; one which hadn't occurred to me before. Even in cases (such as the Azcan) where another Immortal has mostly usurped the following of an Immortal, one will still retain _some_ followers. Which makes one wonder why every Immortal hasn't hopped on the Hollow World bandwagon... ;) The motives of the Immortals in the creation of the Hollow World isn't nearly as beneficent as they may seem... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:45:16 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >You still did not answer even part of my question. Thanatos and Ranivorus may have corrupted the Nithian Empire, but that only means they meddled as Immortals are allowed to do. There is no evidence to support a theory of direct intervention on their part, therefore there seems to be little justification to the Immortals' destructive measures beyond plain and simple jealousy and revenge. Since I was the one to point out that Thanatos and Ranivorus don't necessarily play by the rules, I'll take a stab at it. :) First off, I stated that because I feel that no, Thanatos and (possibly) Ranivorus feel that they are above the Prime Directive, and if they see a need to violate it, they will feel free to do so, provided they can do it and get away with it. I'd argue that this is likely the case of many Entropics, and quite likely a number of other Immortals, as well. (Think of Thanatos as Captain Kirk. ;) It's true that there isn't necessarily evidence to suggest that they did any such thing in regards to Nithia. Perhaps they did, and hid it well; perhaps they didn't- speculation is all we have to say they did, and the burden of proof is on those who say they did. So this rules playing doesn't necessarily apply in this case. At any rate, just because they did it legitimately doesn't reduce the efforts of the other Immortals to simply "jealousy and revenge." There is evidence to support the contention that the Nithians had grown too big for their britches and threated the whole of life on Mystara- a major source for Immortals. I'm sure jealousy and revenge factored into the decisions of some Immortals, while other motivations factored into the decisions of other Immortals. Regardless, for many reasons there was a mass consensus that it was a lesser evil to destroy the Nithians than to let them continue in their ways; a consensus that likely would not be reached ever again, due to the problems that it caused. It may have been a violation of the Prime Directive, but it was a decision reached by committee, and not done lightly, and was as much of a learning experience for the Immortals not to allow such a thing to ever come to pass again as anything. They certainly aren't infallible, though they be Immortal. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:43:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-08 13:00:53 EDT, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) wrote: << Are your prevous postings available on web? I think Ive got most of them saved, and I am thinking of commenting on them when I get to meditate over the matters dicussed. >> Those were posted on the list on the 1st or 2nd, IIRC. If you don't have them let me know and I'll send them to you... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:40:12 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Minotaurs (was: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits) On Thu, 8 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: II think you are right. I forgot about that one moment. How many Minotaurs are there actually in Mystara? I dont thionk they should be scattered all over the world. Its seems a bit silly if all the races should be found in all corners of Mystara for no apparent reason. The official reason they are found throughout Mystara while Enduks aren't is something to do with them spreading out a lot because they were evil (it's more than just that, but I would need to read the article again...). >I also think its sad that they are so stupid. I like the krynnish Minotaurs who have a sense of honor. 6 is low... But remember that it is the enduks (which I really like) in D&D who have a sense of honour and are intelligent. >Augar, the ex nithian Minotaur(IMC) has had his INT raised due to a magical item. I like him better that way. I am considering letting him play a major role in the future of Mystaran Minotaurs. I once thought of letting him create a Minotaur Kingdom on monster Island, but Ive discarded that idea. That sounds cool. Having a Minotaur Kingdom is a cool idea, but if you are using the list's Almanac in your campaign then obviously it can't be Monster Island. (Sorry, but I will NEVER say Ionace, and I will NEVER say NACE... I'm not an abbreviation person, unlike [apparently] Commander Broderick [or rather Michael Roy...] ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:58:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on Elves In a message dated 97-05-08 23:14:08 EDT, you write: << According to the first Poor Wizard's Almanac, Wendarian elves were actually some of the original Evergrun colonists near Blackmoor. Somehow the elves of Wendar survived the cataclysms, though they were reduced to savages and forgot that part of their history... Thorf. >> Ahh, yet another example of the vagaries of Canon... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:06:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Canon/Non-Canon, Etc... I think this has gone on far enough, and somewhat more so, so I think the best thing to do is simply to agree to disagree. I am not conceding my point in the least, mind you, I'm simply saying that you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I will not convince you of my point and you will not convince me of yours; lets just get on with other subjects... we've wasted enough bandwidth as it is, and from my experience with philosophical debate (which, in effect this is), there is no end to it and it it generally non-productive... On with Mystara, I say... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:22:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Nithia Seen in Conan Novel... Well, this is something straight out of the M-Files of Per Kirvik, but I recently found a "new" Conan novel that has an ancient, lost city called Nithia, somewhere out in the desert! The book is called "Conan and the Grim Grey God" and it's by Sean A. Moore. I asked at the desk and they said it had been out since November... I don't know the full details, but it looks like Conan's "Nithia" was somehow connected with Stygia, Acheron or early Shem, which would fit in with our very own Nithia. Does anyone out there actually have this book ($9.99 US$, a bit more than I could simply spend on a whim). Does anyone know if "Nithia" is an old Egyptian word, or what? Could it simply be a coincidence? I suppose it would be fair, as we have our own Hyborea... :) Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:28:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-08 19:15:38 EDT, Curufin wrote: << None of this is new to me, especially given my recent encounter with HWR2 in trying to "sanitize" its timeline in a canonical way. (Which by the way is impossible without help from TSR at this point.)>> Interesting that you should say that, as if I understand the term "Canon" correctly, then the material in HWR2 IS Canon, so what is there to sanitize? <> That's where EXTRAPOLATION comes in. As you say, there would be no justification in simple jealousy and revenge, THEREFORE we must INFER from the known information just why they would eliminate the entire culture and wipe its memory from the face of Mystara. They must have had a *very good* reason. Now I like to think that the writers of the Gazetteers left the actual reasons and catalysts to the Dungeon Masters of the various independent campaigns... sounds very classical D&Dish, not at all like the extremely linear modules and sources of the latter-day TSR product. Now that is where extrapolation and inference would come in... and I'm going to pour over my source materials and write up an argument for my position right after I log off, because I'd rather not write it up off the cuff, as it were. Therefore, until next... Well, wait a minute... I just reread your post, and I think there may have been a miscommunication or misunderstanding somewhere (perhaps on my part). If I understand what you are writing correctly, you are saying that the ONLY reason that the Immortals would have been justified in wiping out Nithia was because of direct interference on the part of Thanatos and Ranivorous... which was never my position (I'll have to go back and check the record to see what was actually said)... I'll address this in the later post... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 05:53:14 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: <<< Nithians were destroyed by the Immortals (most sources agree on this one wway or another - some suggest direct intervention others indirect, such as diverting the headwaters of the River Nithia) because they developed some REALLY nasty destructive magic which could have had a catastrophic effect on the world. This is not my opinion or IMC, it's from canonical sources. (In actual fact I always thought the destruction of Nithia was a bit steep and required some explanation.) >> >This is odd, since I thought the issue was my non-Canonical statements about this kind of thing... yet you are stating that you yourself do not agree with Canon. Now I am thoroughly confused... I didn't say I didn't agree with it, merely that with the current (and in all probability final) sources, it isn't explained very well. Basically it jars with things that were thought of later in the evolution of the game and the history of the world. There's no point in denying that it is a semi-conflict within the "canonical" sources. The point is that I don't use my ideas for resolving this (which are as much extrapolation as your extrapolations are) in discussions with other people. Why? Because the chances are they are either not interested or will start a discussion just like the one I am having with you now. Besides which, my ideas probably wouldn't fit your campaign. I don't even know if they fit my campaign, but then they don't need to fit anything since they will almost certainly never affect my games. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:40:05 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World - Immortal insurance policy? In a message dated 97-05-08 20:31:20 EDT, you write: << It is true, though. Any Immortal can ensure himself eternal faith just by putting a culture in which his worship is very important into the Hollow World. Interesting... >> Not necessarily. Take the case of the Azcans. Otzitiotl and Kalaktatla (spelling?) were their original patrons, but now worship in Azca is almost entirely devoted to Atzanteotl. And if Atruatzin Quetzalcouatl has his way, the focus of Azcan worship will shift again. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:48:41 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Mystaros & Canon I've been watching Mystaros being slammed for not distinguishing between Canon and his own campaign. I don't quite get it, I've never had a problem with his posts in that manner. Mystaros almost always prefaces his own material with "IMC" (In My Campaign), and most of his work does extrapolate and work well within canonical boundaries (as well as possible with the conflicting canon of our favorite world). I've never "read between the lines" of his posts and gotten the impression that he feels his material is semi-canon or somehow better than our own campaign ideas, Never. Mystaros, I feel you should keep up all the incredible work you've been doing, and not worry too much if some get a bit confused. Or at least, I hope no one takes offense (to this post, to any of Mystaros' posts, or to any replies to either! :)). Just a vote of support I guess. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:51:28 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits In a message dated 97-05-08 04:19:55 EDT, you write: << Where to place these? I'm thinking that perhaps somewhere near the Minaen Coast or in that general Bellisaria/Minaea area. The culture depicted seems vaguely Greek (and not just because of the Minotaurs), and since Minaea was founded by Milenian refugees, perhaps this could explain their cultural elements? Anyone else? >> IMC, I placed M2 in the Hollow World near the Milenian Empire. Yes, it is very Greekish in tone :) Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:51:12 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: Minotaurs (was: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits) In a message dated 97-05-09 01:37:56 EDT, you write: << That sounds cool. Having a Minotaur Kingdom is a cool idea, but if you are using the list's Almanac in your campaign then obviously it can't be Monster Island. (Sorry, but I will NEVER say Ionace, and I will NEVER say NACE... I'm not an abbreviation person, unlike [apparently] Commander Broderick [or rather Michael Roy...] ;-) >> Yes!!!! I hate those acronyms myself, Thorf! Acronyms, to me, just don't capture that fantasy-medieval flair that I so enjoy. Of course, there are more than a few canon acronyms that get under my skin as well! (F.A.E.R.Y. or E.L.F. from Glantri) Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 06:13:26 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Discussions and Adventure Ideas On Thu, 8 May 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: OOn Thu, 8 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: OOOn Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: AAAActually, quoting from Canon: "BC1,800: The dwarvish race on the outer world is slowly,inevitably dying out. The Immortal called Kagyar the Artisan takes *all* remaining dwarves in the known world. *Half* he transplants to the Hollow World, and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are **no** remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world". Endquote. [Hollow World DM's Sourcebook pg 13, corroborated on pg 52) >>Nice how you go one way one minute then whirl back round and quote from an official source to support your new argument. >Actually, Mystaros hadn't argued the above point before this; it isn't until below that he offers up a suggestion for surviving Kogolors. The "new race" question above was made by Dalmont in response to something I had said in an earlier post. Mystaros is just now pointing out that quote; he hasn't begun to introduce his new argument. (If there was another argument Mystaros made on this point earlier, then I am mistaken. That's the problem with these multi-person arguments; it becomes easy to forget who's arguing what, and when, and why. :) Sorry Mystaros... In the whirl of different e-mails I must have mistaken you for someone else. I have to agree, it is sometimes VERY hard to keep track of who is saying what in a big discussion... especially if you hadn't been paying attention to who was speaking for the first few days! :-} >>This is what I was talking about earlier. You can stamp all over the so-called canonical sources as much as you like, you can "extrapolate" as much as you like in what YOU BELIEVE is a logical manner, but it is a bit naive to assume everyone will accept your extrapolations as semi- canonical. >I think Mystaros is just offering up his point of view, and with his interpretations of why things are the way they are. IMO, he has been very clear in this, so long as one realizes that he is talking about his campaign (which he has since begun to indicate definitively, to clear up any such confusion). I don't think he is assuming anyone is going to accept his propositions out of hand; he just offers up his theories for discussion, which is exactly what we are here for. Yes, you are right. The only point I was making was that it isn't really appropriate to talk all the time from the point of view of your own campaign. You can have extra ideas on canonical material and talk about them as a point in whatever you are discussing, sure, but it is best not to try to talk from your own campaign all the time. If we all did that, it would be very hard to have discussions with each other in which we could actually communicate! >It's like the other post I made about "everyone seeming to accept the Yuan-ti/Manacapuru theory". As another pointed out (can't recall who, offhand, sorry), he hadn't accepted it, though he found it interesting. I would personally like to see posts agreeing with theories, and proposing new ideas, as I would like to see posts disagreeing, and thoughts on why things couldn't be this way. The thing is, some of us just aren't interested in some of these types of posts. For example, Mystaros, some of your posts were very interesting to me, if a little alien to my campaign-style. On the other hand I have no interest in seeing a history of the world from X,000,000,000 years BC onwards. That is not to say of course that you shouldn't post it - I know there are other people here who are more interested in that sort of thing than I. Anyway, the type of posts I would like to see more of are adventure- orientated ideas. Things you can really use for your campaigns! Interesting adventure ideas, set in Mystara, would be a really cool thin to see on the list. Of course the Almanac deals with this in a roundabout sort of way, but a discussion of pure ideas would be fun and useful for most people (or at least most DMs) on the list. Anyone else share this opinion? Or have I lost you in this rather long- winded argument of ours? ;-) >Personally, though I'll admit even on my side the commentary has gotten to a state of near heatedness, I've found the whole discussion interesting. :) I agree. If there's one good thing about this kind of discussion, it's that it is really FUN to take part in. ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:44:29 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) At 04.52 08/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 8 May 1997, DM wrote: >>there will always be another reality (NOT dimension) where those >> change didn't occur... and what will be the repercussions of this reality ooon the "official" Mystara reality?? >That's if you buy into the "parallel universe" theory, which I personally don't. (How's that for getting out of an argument? ;) Well, i was referring to canon (AD&D Chronomancer supplement.. a well done book, but leaves open too much questions IMO). Anyway, i accept your answer as a wise option to avoi long and painstaking arguments... I'll try to remember it next time..:) >>But think about this: how would be then considered those mortals who travel back and forward in time to fulfill their Trial for the Sphere of Time by these monitors? Would they be allowed or not? >It seems to me, then, that their future actions would determine the course of future events, and thus their actions in the future of the timestream would fall under the jurisdiction of the Quantum Leapers- ie, whatever future actions they took would have to be protected from alteration by the QL's. >It's the Mobius Loop time theory (or, as I like to call it, the "Bill and Ted Time Theory")- time is like a mobius loop; everything that has happened and/or will happen and/or is happening, has already/will already/is already happening. Can't make any changes, since everything that is to be done has already occurred... So, will they be stopped by QLs or not? Will they just have a sort of special authorization by the higher spheres, sort of pass, or what else? (QL: "Hey guy, you cannot trespass our time-continuum and hope for the better" D: "But... sir.. i've got my pass here, look... I'm a Dynast and i'm working for Khoronus" QL: "Well... yes, it seems everything right... OK buddy, but watch your speed...") DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:37:32 +0100 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Carnifex, Nithia, Thyatis and Immortal Interference At 03.11 08/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >Only interfering with the normal evolution of the particular offshoot of a race he created. You seem to be missing the point I am making. Introduction of a new race, while leaving the original intact, is not direct interference in the progression of the original race. >Kagyar didn't alter _all_ Kogolor dwarves. He put some in the Hollow World, altered some and planted them in Rockhome (a new species), and left the others to their natural fate elsewhere. He didn't interfere with the original race's ability to pull themselves out of the decline they had fallen into due to mortal events, nor did he cause said events. He simply created conditions where a certain offshoot of their race would survive elsewhere- an offshoot, I note, that he hasn't altered or changed in any way since. They progress along their own natural path, though their initial conception was set in progress by him. Good. Then In my personal view, Ka did the same with Carnifex. I don't know if i made myself clear enough, but that's the way i see it. >>I said with my theory about Carnifex (which originated this whole issue, i wanna remind you all) that Ka actually took some dinos and gave them a chance to evolve into thinking beings, capable of building tools and wield magic. I didn't say he created Carnifex and annihilated dinos: there >>were still dinos roaming Mystara when the Carnifex achieved their peak; >>does this qualify for your above definition? >Sure it does. As I recall, at this point, we were mainly arguing over the length of time such a change might need to take place. Oh, yes... that was the initial starting point... So what was i saying? :) Seriously speaking, i think we can end it now, cause as i've seen we seem to agree (referring to what we wrote above) on... on what? On the fact that Carnifex were indeed an experiment of Ka, and so? Oh.. yes, since it was an experiment, then the timespan of their evolution need not be that much long as Mystaros proposed... So that's my new Carnifex timeline: 50.000 BC: Ka gives a small numbers of Dinosaurs (the Carnifex ancestors) the first spark of intelligence. They start to improve their thinking capacities. 40.000 BC: The Carnifex starts to use tools. They have mutated to a small race of carnosaurs with longer arms and bigger brain than the common dinos. They still communicate using verses and gestures 30.000 BC: The Carnifex starts developing their own language and establish the first institutions of their society. 20.000 BC: The Carnifex begin to study and use primitive magic and to tame other dinos. They also establish the first settlements and the basis for their common culture. 10.000 BC: After many wars among the Carnifex, which are now a large population in Davania, they form a unified government with a strict gerarchy and began to explore their land. Their magical knowledge begins to broaden. 8.000 BC: The Carnifex are now the rulers of the whole Davanian continent. They create servitor species to help them in the hard labors and begin to plan the construction of a magical machine that will let them reach an unparallel level of existence (near and maybe behind immortality) 7.000 BC: The Carnifex use their Infinity Machine but it didn't function as they planned: nearly 2/3 of the entire Carnifex race is wiped out the planet's surface; they are simply erased, like a bad written word, from Mystara. The other species are barely touched by this event, but they suffer strange diseases that deform them or leave them without memories of the past. The immortals decide to take action against the Carnifex in order to avoid the utter destruction of Mystara next time (or maybe to avoid the Carnifex attain a higher level of existence?) and banish the remaning Carnifex with their threatening knowledge of the magical arts to the Pits of Banishment forever. Sounds good? And remember: IT'S NOT CANON, for it doesn't exist any ref to the real Carnifex history in TSR products... About NITHIA: >I believe it is also noted, in a few places, that the Nithians had become too powerful; that they threatened not only the other people of Mystara, but the planet itself. In that case, I think the Immortals can certainly (and probably not without much deliberation) make the choice to save the world and destroy a culture, rather than let the whole thing go to pot. >In any event, the entire culture wasn't destroyed. There are still remnants of the Nithian empire in Ylaruam (though they don't recall much of their glory days), as well as the Thothian colony on the Isle of Dawn. Mmhh.. that is really interesting. Nithians have not been totally eliminated from Mystara, but Carnifex have. I thereby think that Carnifex have been guilty not only of endangering Mystara (cause the Nithians did the same, and if you like, the Blackmoorians too, but the Blacklore and Nithians still exist in the HW), but also of threatening the Immortal rule on the Multiverse with their experiment. Simply: they were touched in their pride, and being jealous about their might, the Immortals decided that the Carnifex were better left confined in another dimension. Mystaros had them defy the Immortals in a war and lose: i changed this vision into the above written stuff. They didn't directly challenged the Immortals (maybe they didn't know about them?), but indirectly they tried to be superior to them with their magics, and that caused their downfall. So i don't agree with mystaros only on the actual MEANS of defying Immortals, but i do agree with him when he says that they challenged the Higher beings and lost. ABOUT THYATIS >>And again: do you think that Immortals will have to erase from the face of Mystara the Hattian or possibly the whole Thyatian culture, should >> Thanatos be able to fulfill his masterplan involving Count Heinrich OOOesterhaus >I think the Nithian Incident was an isolated one, and the decisions reached in that incident are not likely to be made again. If you say that time is like a Moebius Loop, than it is very likely this will happen again. And also note what was written in PC1: Tall Tales..."there will always be an Age of Chaos and an Age of Order", so this implies other earthquakes are coming to rock Mystara (and maybe the Thyatis Project of Thanatos is involved). Remember also that Thanatos is a subtle manipulator: he will never act directly, even using his Identities: his plan is to grow up his son in his policy of hatred and revenge against the other races, so if there's one who will lead Hattias and Thyatis to conquer the world it's not the Count himself (Than) but his son, in the far (or near) future. Anyone ever thought about this masterplan to be developed in the Poor Wizard's Almanac (Michael, Fabrizio, Hervé, Andrew?)? DM PS: again, sorry for the long post and the insuing debate..:) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #73 **************************** Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:44:41 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #74 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, May 9 1997 Volume 02 : Number 074 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:55:46 +0100 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Re:Minotaurs History and adventure location At 17.45 08/05/97 +0200, Haavard wrote: >What is the origin of Minotaurs on Mystara? The Nithians could have created them as another servitor race. Acoording to one of the HW >modules a nithian names Augar(who is a major NPC IMC) was changed >into a Minotaur by Nithian magic. >Haavard R. Faanes Actually, according to canon material (Orc's Head), Ixion created the first winged minotaurs (Enduks) to repay his loyal follower and servant Gylgarid (who i presume was a sort of Titan or other extraplanar creature), and he fashioned them to look like Gylgarid. Then he became their follower and they located in nowadays Nimmur, which is in fact an Enduk word (don't remember what it means though). Then, an enduk named Minoides betrayed Gylgarid and the other Enduks and he was cursed by Ixion along with his supporters: as a result, he lost his wings when he and his followers fled from Nimmur (i don't remember in which occasion, though it may be related with the manscorpions' invasion... gotta check that part sometime). That's the official origin of the Enduks and Minotaurs, who are then a degenerated and often malevolent and nasty offshot of enduks. I think that Cthul suggestion of staging M2 (?) near Minaea is a good solution, but we can also place the isle near the western coast of Davania, cause IIRC there are still a few surviving Milenian colonies there (Cyclonia? Kolossopolis? have i dreamed of these names?) and it's far nearer to the Savage Coast whence they originated... But it's just an option, and take into account that i don't have the module you're talking about DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:47:15 +0100 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] M3 or M4? That's the question (was: Immortal Interference) At 17.36 08/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >I would personally like to see posts agreeing with theories, and proposing new ideas, as I would like to see posts disagreeing, and thoughts on why things couldn't be this way. I think we are just doing this: problem is that we're all stubborn and not so open as we think to outside suggestions (?).. Of course, that's just MY POINT OF VIEW >Which goes back to the original point of this whole thread- that being the time frame required for the Carnifex to have evolved to their historical state of being (as defined in M4: Twilight Calling). Wasn't it M3? :) I seem to recall M4 is Five Coins for a Kingdom... BTW, what is the theme of that adventure? >Personally, though I'll admit even on my side the commentary has gotten to a state of near heatedness, I've found the whole discussion interesting. :) I did too.. but it was becoming a bit too... hot.. So, i suggest we take a beer or two and let's go to the pub to talk about the good ole times when D&D was thriving (like oldmen do)... :) *hic* DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:50:50 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World - Immortal insurance policy? At 17.47 08/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 8 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >>It is true, though. Any Immortal can ensure himself eternal faith just by putting a culture in which his worship is very important into the Hollow World. Interesting... >That is an interesting thought; one which hadn't occurred to me before. Even in cases (such as the Azcan) where another Immortal has mostly usurped the following of an Immortal, one will still retain _some_ followers. Which makes one wonder why every Immortal hasn't hopped on >the Hollow World bandwagon... ;) Yes, this is a very good point by Thorf! i hadn't thought about it... Probably not every Immortal has followers on the HW cause they don't care: i think they may have followers on other planets of the prime (Mystara is important, OK, but it's not the only ONE planet teeming with living species) Or maybe it's just the Immortals have to pass an examination to be welcomed in the HW project... and you know, sometimes the Council of HW is really nasty.. as some professors i know...:) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:02:18 +0100 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures I was wondering if any of you resented the fact that the new Immortal rules in WotI abolished the bias concerning regenerating PPs and Casting Spells appropriate to the immortal own sphere. I think they were useful and not that much difficult to apply... whereas with these new oversimplified rules u cannot get the real flavour of belonging to one Sphere or another Also, i'd like to know what do you think about the immortal Modules edited (i don't own any) and what were their plots. Another last issue: were would you place the Immortals detailed in Wrath of Olympus (IM2 ?): i thought they were appropriate for Milenia, but HWR3 doesn't mention them.. so where to put them? The Milenian colonies still existing in Davania? Minaea? Darokin? DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:17:42 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: Minotaurs (was: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits) On Thu, 8 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >On Thu, 8 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >>In a message dated 97-05-08 12:44:55 EDT, you write: >><< What is the origin of Minotaurs on Mystara? The Nithians could have cccreated them as another servitor race. Acoording to one of the HW modules a nithian names Augar(who is a major NPC IMC) was changed into a Minotaur by Nithian magic >> >>Officially, the Minotaurs of Mystara are originally fallen Enduks who had their wings taken away. I think there's something about that in Dragon #200... I'll have to check. >I think you are right. I forgot about that one moment. How many Minotaurs are there actually in Mystara? I dont thionk they should be scattered all over the world. Its seems a bit silly if all the races should be found in all corners of Mystara for no apparent reason. >I also think its sad that they are so stupid. I like the krynnish Minotaurs who have a sense of honor. 6 is low... Not a bad idea, but the Minotaurs on Mystara were made Minotaurs instead of Enduks because they were evil and corrupt, I forget exactly what they did (its in the Orc's Head supplement on MPGN, as well as Enduk PCs). They spread to all parts of Mystara because they were cast out from the Immortals Arm, so they kind of just wandered. I believe Ixion also made them less intelligent to match the level at which they were acting. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:06:45 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World - Immortal insurance policy? On Fri, 9 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: NNot necessarily. Take the case of the Azcans. Otzitiotl and Kalaktatla (spelling?) were their original patrons, but now worship in Azca is almost entirely devoted to Atzanteotl. And if Atruatzin Quetzalcouatl has his way, the focus of Azcan worship will shift again. Yes of course, but remember that no matter what happens, worship of any one Immortal that is currently going on will never be completely wiped out. Atruatzin, Otzitiotl and Kalaktatla are all still being worshipped, and yes eventually the New Way will inevitably shift worship back to Atruatzin, but even then Atanteotl will still have some followers left... just waiting for THEIR chance to have a comeback. So it still works, even if the number of followers is not constant. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:33:04 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaros & Canon On Fri, 9 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: II've been watching Mystaros being slammed for not distinguishing between Canon and his own campaign. I don't quite get it, I've never had a problem with his posts in that manner. That wasn't quite it. What I (and a few others) were irked (annoyed would be too strong a word ;-) about was Mystaros using elements from his own campaign and his own creations in discussions which hitherto didn't seem to have anything to do with his particular stuff. >Mystaros almost always prefaces his own material with "IMC" (In My Campaign), and most of his work does extrapolate and work well within canonical boundaries (as well as possible with the conflicting canon of our favorite world). I've never "read between the lines" of his posts and gotten the impression that he feels his material is semi-canon or somehow better than our own campaign ideas, Never. Yes he almost always says IMC, but that doesn't change the nature of the argument. Often people are simply not interested in arguing outside the "canon". But of course his material is canon - to HIM! Anyone who has put so much work into that sort of thing is just BOUND to have reduced the "boundary" between canon and self-made for himself, as he deserves to have done. I salute him for putting in so much work for what he finds important for his campaigns. All I am saying is that it is necessary to realise that other people will sometimes (but not always) not accept arguments backed by his (or anyone else's) material. Incidentally this includes all non-canonical material - there will always be *something* in any non-canonical work which jars with your own perception of Mystara, from canonical material and stuff you have made up. Take the Mystaran Almanac. It is a great achievment, but I would challenge everyone on this list to read through it and then tell me they thought it was completely suited to their own campaign and/or perception of Mystara. Even Michael, who wrote a lot of the thing, doesn't view it as completely in line with canon! This is because nothing which anyone writes outside of TSR will ever be considered canon. Which is not even to say that we agree with or like all of the canon stuff (WotI for example caused a lot of debate and annoyance, as well as a lot of happiness and excitement). >Mystaros, I feel you should keep up all the incredible work you've been doing, and not worry too much if some get a bit confused. Or at least, I hope no one takes offense (to this post, to any of Mystaros' posts, or to any replies to either! :)). I don't think anyone should take offense either. And I agree, as I have said before, I don't want to discourage ANYONE from expanding Mystara in whatever way they choose. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:35:24 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Minotaurs (was: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits) On Fri, 9 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: IIn a message dated 97-05-09 01:37:56 EDT, you write: ><< That sounds cool. Having a Minotaur Kingdom is a cool idea, but if you aare using the list's Almanac in your campaign then obviously it can't be Monster Island. (Sorry, but I will NEVER say Ionace, and I will NEVER say NACE... I'm not an abbreviation person, unlike [apparently] Commander Broderick [or rather Michael Roy...] ;-) >> >Yes!!!! I hate those acronyms myself, Thorf! Acronyms, to me, just don't capture that fantasy-medieval flair that I so enjoy. Of course, there are more than a few canon acronyms that get under my skin as well! (F.A.E.R.Y. or E.L.F. from Glantri) That's probably it, Delarius. You've hit the nail on the head - acronyms just aren't fantasy! Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:48:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) Kaviyd@aol.com pontificated: >Another consideration for Immortal interference is, who will complain? This sort of fits my idea of Immortal interference. That Immortals can interfere with mortal as much as they can get away with. So minor, infrequence interferences interferences are easier to be overlooked than more major or frequent interferences. And more powerful immortals can get away more than the minor immortals. To me it is sort like how U.N. operates. U.S. can invade Panama with out too much complients with maybe a few "strong objections." But if U.S. starts to annex Canada or Maxico, the U.N. might start to take some actions. While when Iraq invades Kuwait, the U.N. jump to action almost immediatly. And any major immortals that being around long enough know how to play this game and use it to as much of his advantage as possible. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures In a message dated 97-05-09 06:38:09 EDT, you write: << Another last issue: were would you place the Immortals detailed in Wrath of Olympus (IM2 ?): i thought they were appropriate for Milenia, but HWR3 doesn't mention them.. so where to put them? The Milenian colonies still existing in Davania? Minaea? Darokin? DM >> After their debacle on Mount Olympus, I would say that they were spending several centuries clearing out the "Immortal Stables"... the Immortals that posed as the Greek Gods were detailed in the section of lesser-known Immortals in the WotI rulebook. I doubt they had any influence in the Milenian Empire, as they were rather young Immortals in WotI (Bemarris, Kythria, Lokena, Palson, Patura, Taroyas, Turmis were all Initiates), while they ranged from Temporal to Empyreal in IM2. Therefore, I would say that IM2 takes place sometime in the future rather than the past, as there also follows a Golden Age, in which the arts expand and war declines, etc, of which there has been no mention in any history... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:19:44 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) On Fri, 9 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: <<< None of this is new to me, especially given my recent encounter with HHWR2 in trying to "sanitize" its timeline in a canonical way. (Which by the way is impossible without help from TSR at this point.)>> >Interesting that you should say that, as if I understand the term "Canon" correctly, then the material in HWR2 IS Canon, so what is there to sanitize? Well... if you read HWR2 carefully, you will see that there are massive contradictions in the timeline. The timeline itself is fine, except that it places NINE Pharaohs over a 1500 year stretch of time (which is not a huge problem in D&D). Then later on in the course of the book it assumes many, many more Pharoahs, even naming some - Hutaatep, Karnak, etc. Now, what I was talking about in "sanitzing" the timeline is somehow reconciling the conflicts in a "canonical" way - which given the current information is impossible. Why? Because you would be forced to go against the timeline information (which is all tied neatly together) in order to sort it out. Now do you understand? I don't know that I explained it very well. >That's where EXTRAPOLATION comes in. As you say, there would be no justification in simple jealousy and revenge, THEREFORE we must INFER from the known information just why they would eliminate the entire culture and wipe its memory from the face of Mystara. They must have had a *very good* reason. Now I like to think that the writers of the Gazetteers left the actual reasons and catalysts to the Dungeon Masters of the various independent campaigns... sounds very classical D&Dish, not at all like the extremely linear modules and sources of the latter-day TSR product. Now that is where extrapolation and inference would come in... Yes, I agree, this may have been one of those "do whatever fits your campaign best" bits, but also remember that it was probably not intended (officially) to be added to - not all events have to be explained and detailed. This is partly what I was saying before: for some things it just isn't necessary to know the "hows, whys and wheres". You may well want to make up your own reasons, but other people will be willing to accept it as it is. After all, do we really need to know in detail wy the Immortals destroyed Nithia for our campaign? If the answer is yes, then certainly go ahead and work it all out. But if not, it is just speculation which is of interest to some but not others. >and I'm going to pour >over my source materials and write up an argument for my position right after I log off, because I'd rather not write it up off the cuff, as it were. Therefore, until next... I can sympathise with that. But don't go to a whole lot of effort over this... >Well, wait a minute... I just reread your post, and I think there may have been a miscommunication or misunderstanding somewhere (perhaps on my part). If I understand what you are writing correctly, you are saying that the ONLY reason that the Immortals would have been justified in wiping out Nithia was because of direct interference on the part of Thanatos and Ranivorous... which was never my position (I'll have to go back and check the record to see what was actually said)... I'll address this in the later post... No, I was saying that the only reason *I* can think of was direct interference. I don't claim to have thought too much over how and why it happened. As to the last bit, don't bother going back and checking. It's just not that important. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:35:30 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits >M2- Maze of the Riddling Minotaur >(Very interesting stuff here...) >The Island of Vacros- 400 years ago, this volcanic isle was the center of a vast mercantile empire. It fell under the corruption of Kiranjo a>bull-headed god/Immortal (Possibly another name for Gylgarid, from X13?), who imported a lot of minotaurs. It eventually fell to the forces of... I've a problem... maybe someone can help me.... Here in Argentina it's very dificult to get OD&D stuff, and My father went to USA in 1993 (aprox) ant I told him to buy me somes adventures.... He buy M2 (the maze...) but they don't sell him the pencil... There some Home-receipe to see the invisible ink? I don't want to try with Lemmon or fire and discover than thats no work... - -- Sebastian Quiles ================ Universidad de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:34:21 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits >I've a problem... maybe someone can help me.... Here in Argentina it's very dificult to get OD&D stuff, and My father went to USA in 1993 (aprox) ant I told him to buy me somes adventures.... He buy M2 (the maze...) but they don't sell him the pencil... >There some Home-receipe to see the invisible ink? I don't want to try with Lemmon or fire and discover than thats no work... I've got the same problem with M1. I've tried lemon and other invisible ink pens, but they don't work. It could be that the invisible ink is just dried out, but if anyone has a solution, please let me know too. Thanks Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:51:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Arik of the Hundred Eyes... To add my own tidbit gleaned from modules, here is my rendition of Arik from B3 _Palace of the Silver Princess_, with the appropriate adaptation to material from my own campaign... Arik (Patron of Forbidden Secrets; Arik of the Hundred Eyes; The Bringer of Madness, Patron of the Lost) D&D Characteristics Game Statistics: Celestial, Sphere of Entropy. 18th level Immortal; AC -10; hp 280; HD 32; MV 150'(50'); #AT 3; D 3d6+8 (Punch); AM 60%; Save IM18; AL C; Str 33, Int 50, Wis 50, Dex 20, Con 50, Cha 50. Powers: Call Others, Height Increase, Howl, Leech. Follower's Alignment: Neutral or Chaotic. Clerics must be Chaotic. Special Cleric Powers: At 1st level, Arik's clerics gain the ability to cast one /Locate Object/ spell per day. This is a special power, in addition to their regular spells. Beginning at 7th level, Arik's clerics gain the ability to memorize the 4th level magic-user spell /Wizard Eye/ as though it were a 3rd level clerical spell. In addition, Arik's clerics may also use any magic item (save weaponry) as though they were the correct user of that item; they may even cast spells from magic-user scrolls. However, every time they use an ability of a magic item they are not normally able to use they must make a saving throw vs. Death Ray or suffer 1d6 damage for every equivalent level of spell the magic item imitates. For example, a cleric of Arik tries to use a Crystal Ball to view a group of adventurers that just raided his temple; he fails the saving throw and suffers 3d6 damage. If he succeeded in using the /Clairvoyance/ ability and failed his save when he tried to use the /ESP/ ability, he would suffer 2d6 damage. Whenever a cleric fails the save, the magic item will not function for him or her again for at least 24 hours. Special Cleric Limitations: Clerics of Arik are limited to the memorization of 1st and 2nd level spells and the use of their gifted special powers unless they are within the range of effect of one of Arik's various Artifacts (see below). Spells already memorized may be used anywhere, inside or out of the range of the Artifact. History: Arik was born in a faraway galaxy in the early ages of the Prime Plane's existence. Of an utterly inhuman species, Arik rose to become the ruler of his planet, and eventually embarked on the path to Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy. His final trial on the Path to Immortality was the condensation of all the magical knowledge of his people into one infernal collection; to achieve this he slew every living magic-user of his species and collected their intelligences together in one vessel. After rising to the ranks of the Immortals, Arik's inhuman followers then used this item, the Concordance of Lost Souls, to conquer their entire galaxy. When the Entities from the Void Between the Stars gathered for war against the Immortals, Arik was one of the Immortals of Entropy that sided with the Entities, for he saw an opportunity to gain great and horrible knowledge from the Entities. While he did gain the knowledge he sought, he also shared in the fate of the conquered Entities, and he was subsequently consigned to the Prison Dimension. Arik was one of the first of the beings from that Dimension to contact and corrupt the Carnifex, many ages later. After the interposition of the Nightmare Dimension between the Multiverse and the Prison Dimension, Arik continued his efforts to return to the Multiverse, and has had some success through the use of the Nightmare Dimension. In ages past, he corrupted the Beholders, who continue to be his servitors to this day. Arik also had a part in the corruption of the Nithians, as it was the knowledge that Arik's followers provided to the Nithians that helped them construct their horrible weapons of war and destruction. As with the case of the destruction of Nithia, Arik continues to follow in Thanatos' wake, as the plots of that Immortal often go hand in hand with his own. Arik is most successful in his plots in areas where chaos rules, but he also corrupts the innocent and plots against the forces of Law and justice. Personality: Arik is utterly vicious and unyielding in his thirst for knowledge and power. He will sacrifice anyone and anything to get what he wants, though he will not do so wantonly nor stupidly. His priests on the Prime Plane tend to be insane due to the nature of their "communication" with their Patron, so many contribute this attribute to Arik as well (it must be remembered though that his priests are crazy, not stupid). His priests and followers strive toward the day of his release, and like their Patron, are willing to destroy anyone or anything to bring this about. Allies: None. There are few Immortals who are foolish enough to deal with any being trapped in the Prison Dimension. Thanatos is not so much an ally as an unwilling accomplice; the chaos and destruction that Thanatos wreaks is a perfect ground for Arik to sow the seeds of insanity. There are a few Exalted level Fiends and other beings who have become his followers, as he promises them power beyond their wildest dreams should he be released. The Servitors of the Entities are also at his command, as are many of the denizens of the Dimension of Nightmares. On the Prime Plane, the Beholders are his main followers, along with several Human, Beastmen and Monstrous cults, which generally consist of drooling mad priests and worshippers (who are usually dominated by the Beholders or other Monsters). Enemies: Pretty much everything else in the Multiverse despises the beings in the Prison Dimension, so his enemies are many and legion. There are a few Immortals, however, who guard against his cults and followers vigilantly, and these include Korotiku, who was his greatest enemy in the Great War between the Immortals and the Entities from the Void Between the Stars; Noumena, one of the more active members of the Council of Intrusion, who has made countering Arik and his activities a special goal; and Rathanos, who hates him for Arik's part in the corruption of the Nithians. Appearance: Arik himself cannot appear in the Multiverse, as he is trapped in the Prison Dimension; he has, however, been able to create a "quasi-Avatar" that can survive only in the Nightmare Dimension, and the appearance of this entity is not unlike his own. This "quasi-Avatar" looks like a scaled, tremendously obese 22' tall Giant with eight tentacled arms and a hundred 10' long eye stalks in place of a head and neck. The "quasi-Avatar" is an Exalted level being, on par with a double-HD Roaring Fiend in power. Of course, when appearing in nightmares Arik can choose any appearance that suits his purpose. Symbol: One or many eyes of fiendish cast; or a gemstone of any sort; or a figure of a giant with many eye stalks instead of a head; or a beholder. Beholder Shamans: Beholder followers of Arik are able to become Shamans (clerics and magic-users) of Arik through a long and tortuous process, which in the end blinds their central eye and eliminates the Anti-Magic power of that eye. In return, the Beholder becomes a Shaman of Arik, and gains the ability to rise in power as a cleric (up to 10th level) and magic-user (up to 10th level). Shamans must reach 5th level as a cleric before they may start training as a magic-user. Beholder Shamans are not limited to 2nd level spell memorization as other clerics of Arik are, due to their alien mind and spirit [It has been hypothesized that the Beholders evolved from a servitor race of the Entities]. Artifacts and Magic Items of Arik: To facilitate his release, Arik has discovered a way to create Artifacts and magic items and send them into the Nightmare Dimension and thence into the Multiverse (where they appear randomly). His most famous items, of course, are the Eyes of Arik, which appear as gemstones of surpassing beauty and value. There are many other items, of course, that are not so obviously extensions of his power, and his Artifacts and magic items take many forms. All of these items are designed to assist his followers in their attempts to free their Patron, and will have powers designed to further this end. However, they will also have half again as many Handicaps as a normal Artifact of equivalent power, rounded up, in addition to an extra Penalty! These Handicaps and Penalties are part of the process that powers the effect that allow his clerics to have access to their higher-level spells (3rd though 7th). His clerics will be able to memorize spells above 2nd level if they are within a radius of an Artifact of Arik equal to 1 mile for every 10 PP of the artifact; thus, a Major Artifact of Arik with 600 PP would have a radius of 60 Miles. Clerics may cast spells memorized anywhere, but spells above 2nd level may only be memorized within the radius of one of his Artifacts. Arik's magic items allow the owner of the item to memorize spells above 2nd level, so long as it is in his possession (worn or otherwise held); this ability only works for the owner of the item, and may not be "shared". In return for this ability, the magic item bears a Handicap as though it were a Minor Artifact! Note: Arik is listed as being a Celestial, an 18th level Immortal; actually, he is reduced to this level due to the large number of Artifacts and magic items that he has created and sent into the Multiverse. He is actually a Hierarch, a 36th level Immortal! Should he ever be released from the Prison Dimension he would endeavor to reacquire as many of his Artifacts and magic items as he could in order to reacquire their PP. Now let's see what kind of adventures can be generated using the simple description of this fellow... A Contest! Win a No-Prize! Or, maybe, just maybe win the accolades of your players as you put them through the ringer to see what heights their adventurers can achieve! Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:02:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-09 18:26:37 EDT, you write: << No, I was saying that the only reason *I* can think of was direct interference. I don't claim to have thought too much over how and why it happened. As to the last bit, don't bother going back and checking. It's just not that important. Thorf. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:03:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Discussions and Adventure Ideas In a message dated 97-05-09 07:28:52 EDT, Thorf wrote: << Anyway, the type of posts I would like to see more of are adventure- orientated ideas. Things you can really use for your campaigns! Interesting adventure ideas, set in Mystara, would be a really cool thin to see on the list. Of course the Almanac deals with this in a roundabout sort of way, but a discussion of pure ideas would be fun and useful for most people (or at least most DMs) on the list. Anyone else share this opinion? Or have I lost you in this rather long- winded argument of ours? ;-) Hmmm... I do agree with this to an extent, but I feel that the cross-fertilization of various campaigns with non-Canonical options are just as valuable in developing adventure ideas; see my Arik of the Hundred Eyes post, just before (or maybe after?) this one... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:09:13 +1000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Manacapuru and Yuan-ti >[My Manacapuru/Yuan-ti commentary snipped- >>What makes you think everyone, or even most people, have adopted that? >>I find it interesting to read about, but it's not a part of my campaign. >Aha! Finally, a differing opinion. To be honest, one of the reasons I posted that was to see if it would generate a response... it's sometimes frustrating not to get any feedback from the list (notably on the Almanac; I would have liked to have seen more feedback on that). >At any rate, as I noted, the only responses I've seen on the issue thus far have been in the positive aspect, and seemingly in favor of the Yuan-ti/Manacapuru connection. I didn't mean to imply at all that that necessarily made it canon; just that from the feedback thus far received, people on the list seem to be in favor of the idea. >I'd surely like to hear other thoughts on the matter, myself. :) FWIW I didn't like the Yuan-ti/Manacapuru connection for a number of reasons. Just because Mystara is now officially AD&D I don't see any great reason just to bring in AD&D monsters willy nilly. Doing this IMHO you just destroy some of the Mystara-ness of Mystara. I felt this way as well with the nilbolg events in the AC 1012 Almanac as well. I think Mystara has enough monsters, and many of them interesting enough, not to import monsters blindly from AD&D. I am not saying that no monsters should be brought over from AD&D but it would be good if we could create a list of monsters we think should be brought over or something. I also didn't like the idea because it seems to continue an underlying idea that most people don't want to invent any more new immortals. (I am not saying that this underlying idea exists - I am merely saying that I believe that I have sensed it). And I also didn't like the idea because I thought it would make a better story with a new snake-like immortal lurking around down there - rather than just having a natives-scared-by-monsters scenario. On to the canon vs non-canon thing. I don't want to start a debate but this is a rather sensitive issue, at least with me it has become such since joining this list. But since what we are creating is basically about as canon as it is going to get then I guess unless otherwise stated in someone's post (or if it is bleedingly obvious) then what people post should be considered canon of sorts, I mean it is not as if we are going to get anything that is really canon in the foreseable future. But with stuff that is posted here as with stuff that we buy in the shops any one person in their campaign can take anything from any source and change it as they wish - there has never been any law to say that just because it is written as such that that is how you should run it. FWIW though I am happier knowing that there is a form of canon though even if it is just what we post to this list - even if my campaign doesn't follow it to the letter. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:41:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Immortal Interference (Was: [Mystara] Carnifex) In a message dated 97-05-09 18:26:37 EDT, Thorf wrote: << No, I was saying that the only reason *I* can think of was direct interference. I don't claim to have thought too much over how and why it happened. As to the last bit, don't bother going back and checking. It's just not that important. Thorf. Sorry about that last post; I have GOT to get a better servie than AOL! Anyway, don't worry, as I mentioned in a post earlier, I'm through with the debate. As to your earlier mention of the 9 Pharaohs in 1500 years, I personally think the bit about "... reign as Pharaoh was passed down on to his son and so on up to and including the present Pharaoh, Ramose IV", is a bit misleading. I don't think he meant to say that there were only four Pharaohs since the time of Rasiris (Ramoses I, II, III and IV), simply that the LINE of the Pharaohs has been stable since the time of the Entwining, and that the rule of the Pharaoh was continually passed down from son to son since that time. Note that Ramose III didn't have to follow Ramose II; there are a lot of cases where names in Royal Families spread out over time... for example, Elizabeth I of the House of Tudor ruled England from 1558 - 1603, while next Elizabeth to rule England, Elizabeth II, the current Queen of England, only came to rule in 1952, a jump of some 350 years... Of course, that's just my own point of view... :) Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 20:09:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Manacapuru and Yuan-ti In a message dated 97-05-09 19:54:11 EDT, Stan wrote: << And I also didn't like the idea because I thought it would make a better story with a new snake-like immortal lurking around down there - rather than just having a natives-scared-by-monsters scenario. >> Well, actually, IMC they DO worship a "new" Immortal; my own D&D version of Set (not new in general at all, but he is to D&D; see my campaign's "Origins of Nithia" that I posted last week). IMC, the Manacapuru are the barbarian surivors of the Southern Colonies of the Nithians who have been corrupted by Set; the Yuan-Ti (and the odd Serpentine) are his servants, and the Manacapuru serve them. I'd adapted the Yuan-Ti to D&D before Mystara became an AD&D line because I thought they were a cool race to use... and the Manacapuru aren't "scared" by the Yuan-Ti, they REVERE them, which is much, much worse from an adventurers point of view... heh, heh, heh... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 19:23:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re:Minotaurs History and adventure location On Fri, 9 May 1997, DM wrote: >Actually, according to canon material (Orc's Head), Ixion created the first winged minotaurs (Enduks) to repay his loyal follower and servant Gylgarid (who i presume was a sort of Titan or other extraplanar creature), and he fashioned them to look like Gylgarid. Really? They mentioned Gylgarid? I'll have to check out those online accessories. I'm glad to see that GG was brought in, though from his depiction in X13, I wouldn't have thought that he was an Energy Immortal, much less a follower of Ixion. (Note: Gylgarid is first mentioned in X13, as the "god" figure of some Heldannic barbarian tribes. It has thus been postulated that he is, in fact, an Immortal, and this seems now to have been borne out by canon sources.) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #74 **************************** Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:29:44 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #75 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, May 11 1997 Volume 02 : Number 075 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:57:49 GMT From: lysander@mstop.com (Lysander) Subject: [Mystara] Manhattan Mystara Campaigns? I'm moving into New York City, Manhattan specifcally. Are there any Mystara campaigns going on there? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:55:12 GMT From: lysander@mstop.com (Lysander) Subject: [Mystara] Champagne du le Stomp On a very old subject: is "Champagne du le Stomp" an accurate quote? I ask because according to my recollection of high school French, it's incorrect. "Du" is a contraction of "de le," therefore "du le" is redundant. At least in French. I have to admit it may be perfect Averoignese! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:53:51 GMT From: lysander@mstop.com (Lysander) Subject: [Mystara] Mystara name >I've tried to find out who came up with Mystara, but as yet to no avail. Are you referring to the world or just the name? I remember TSR running a "Name That World" contest in some promotional material, and then a while later the name Mystara started being used, so I just assumed that that was the name that won. Bruce, it seems like we need you for this one. Was Mystara the winner, or did the contest yield no usable name, leaving it up to the staff? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:52:48 GMT From: lysander@mstop.com (Lysander) Subject: [Mystara] Immortal interfernce I feel there has been a LOT of discussion over a false premise. I haven't looked over the canon immortal material lately, but can anyone mention where immortal *interference* is forbidden? The only wording on the subject I can recall is the quote Kayvid gave: "On the Prime Plane, DIRECT Action AGAINST Mortals is Forbidden." What hasn't been stressed before is the word AGAINST. Therefore Immortals helping or improving races is fine. Frankly, though I would like to hear conflicting quotes from canon, I have to admit that I probably wouldn't pay any attention in my game to resticting Immortal "interference" more than that. What would be the point of having such detailed Immortals that didn't act? One might as well just detail their religions for the clerics and leave it at that, which is exactly what I prefer for low level campaigns. But in a game where one can actually eventually BECOME Immortals, what would be the point of doing so, if you become more powerful but more restricted than when you were mortal? I think of the rule this way: the Immortals are like Organized Crime (bear with me here!) They can't just "rub someone out" on the street, but if they make it look like an accident... And of course, every so often, someone does risk a spectacular rub-out. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 20:13:40 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Champagne du le Stomp >On a very old subject: is "Champagne du le Stomp" an accurate quote? I ask because according to my recollection of high school French, it's incorrect. "Du" is a contraction of "de le," therefore "du le" is redundant. >At least in French. I have to admit it may be perfect Averoignese! Champagne du le Stomp is the name from Rahasia. It is improper French, so either it should be proper in Sylaire or else the wine should be a shoddy imitation of the sparkling wine brought by the d'Ambrevilles from Averoigne. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:54:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re:Minotaurs History and adventure location In a message dated 97-05-09 22:48:27 EDT, you write: << Really? They mentioned Gylgarid? I'll have to check out those online accessories. I'm glad to see that GG was brought in, though from his depiction in X13, I wouldn't have thought that he was an Energy Immortal, much less a follower of Ixion. (Note: Gylgarid is first mentioned in X13, as the "god" figure of some Heldannic barbarian tribes. It has thus been postulated that he is, in fact, an Immortal, and this seems now to have been borne out by canon sources.) Actually, the leader of the Enduks is Gildesh, an Immortals level Shedu; I don't think he was related in any way to the Gylgarid of X13... EXCEPT that that Immortal had the head of a Bull! So, Gylgarid *might* well be a Minotaur who accomplished Immortality (he might even be a northern rendition of Minoides, the First Minotaur, described in the article in Dragon #200 and also in the Monsters section of the WotI, under "Monster Rulers"; exalted therein, but perhaps at some point he might have been awarded true Immortality)... a long and convoluted relationship, to be sure, but it is there, sort of... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:07:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Set, the Father of Treason Here is my own rendition of Set, from my campaign... Set (Patron of Unholy Revenge, Master of the Wastes, The Great Serpent, The Usurper, Lord of Snakes, Father of Treason) D&D Characteristics Game Statistics: Empyreal, Sphere of Entropy. 23rd level Immortal; AC -21; hp 420; HD 37; MV 150'(50'); #AT 3; D 3d6+8 (Punch) or 2d6+13 (Spear); AM 70%; Save IM23; AL C; Str 37, Int 70, Wis 33, Dex 70, Con 50, Cha 65. Powers: Control Undead, Groan (Hiss, actually), Poison Bite (or sting), Spit Poison. Weapons: /Spear +5 of Draining/. Follower's Alignment: Chaotics and Neutrals. Clerics must be Chaotic. Special Cleric Powers: At 1st level, Set's clerics can cast /Snake Charm/ once per day; they may use this ability twice a day at 4th level and three times a day at 7th level. This is a special power in addition to their normal complement of spells. They also possess the ability to /Speak with Snakes/, and may use this ability as often as desired. Both of these abilities also work with Scorpions, though the /Charm/ abilities can only be used on either Scorpions or Snakes, not both at once. Set's clerics can also use the regular /Snake Charm/ spell on either Snakes or Scorpions, but again, not both at once. History: Set was a Necromancer-King of the ancient Empire of Taymor, and was one of the few to survive the destruction of that land. He went on to join forces with Thanatos, and became a Vampire, after which he eventually slew his brother, usurped his kingdom, and became a major force for chaos and evil during his reign. The Resurrected Orisis returned, however, and cast Set out of his kingdom. Set was later "slain" by his nephew, Horon Ausar (now the Immortal Ausar) in 1700 BC. Set was rescued by his allies and later went on to achieve Immortality under the tutelage of Thanatos. He was part and parcel of Thanatos and Ranivorus' plan to destroy the Nithian Empire, and has done his best to corrupt any descendants of the Nithian peoples. Set continued to be active in the region of the old Nithian Empire, and was considered a Fiend by the early Alasiyani nomads; he still figures prominently in their folklore. He is revered by the Manacapuru of the Jungle Coast of Davania, and has been a major mover and shaker in the region to the south of that land, Arypt, where he helped in the downfall of the Aryptian Nithians centuries ago. He is currently most active in the Lost Valley of southern Davania (where lies Eskarnak, a successor state of Nithia that was founded by Eskar, another native Nithian Immortal) and on the Savage Coast, in Hule, where he is known as Ireyelan, the Patron of Traitors and Rebels (he is *NOT* well liked by the Hulean Hagiarchy, members of whom are often the target of his Order of Assassins). He is revered by the Snake Cult of the Temple of the Serpent in the cities of the fallen Milenian Empire and the Aryptian Kingdom. He has an active cult in the HW Nithian Empire, and various cells of Vampires throughout the Known World pay him homage. Personality: Set is perhaps one of the most thoroughly EVIL Immortals of the Sphere of Entropy, and that says a lot (the only Immortal more purely evil is perhaps Demogorgon). He is much more the protege to Thanatos than Alphaks will ever be, as he is much more subtle and cunning. Still, he enjoys allowing his more bestial aspect out now and again, and he is not above corrupting a city or kingdom for the sheer pleasure of it. He allows no slight to himself or his temples to go unpunished. To his loyal followers, Set seems a "Father Figure"; a cruel, harsh father perhaps, but a father nonetheless. Set repays their devotion with a loyalty of his own, as he has learned in the past that loyal servants are to be valued; however, he will not hesitate to sacrifice them if necessary. This loyalty to his own is a strange dichotomy in the Father of Treason, but Set is not a simple or shallow being by any means. Allies: Set has a few Immortal allies. Thanatos is one of the few Immortals who he will work with without the thought of treason, as Set still regards him to be an excellent teacher. He will often work with Ranivorus on various plots in the HW Nithian Empire. He and Loki worked together on the destruction of Elder Nithia, but haven't cooperated overly much since, and developments in Hule continue to drive a wedge between them. He gets along well with Masauwu, as they share a common goal in the corruption of mortals to Entropy. Sometimes he will work with Demogorgon, but usually their alliances fall apart, as neither truly trusts the other. Enemies: Set's greatest enemy, of course, is Orisis, who was his brother in mortal life, but he isn't actively hunting Set or his minions down. He will eliminate them if they try to corrupt or interfere with his followers or projects, but not otherwise. Ausar, the Holy Avenger, the son of Orisis, is much more active in opposing Set, as is Eskar, the Holy Light, the descendant of Ausar and Orisis, also now an Immortal. Those two cause Set no end of trouble, and Set returns the favor tenfold. Rathanos and Pflarr also actively dislike Set and will oppose him as the opportunity permits, but they don't go out of their way to cause him grief as do Ausar and Eskar. He has an ongoing rivalry with Alphaks and Orcus, though as yet this hasn't spilled out of the region of the Savage Coast. Appearance: Set most often appears as a tall, well figured, dusky skinned man with the head of a serpent. He favors the garb of the Pharaohs of the ancient Nithian Empire, wearing it mostly in mockery of his brother and his followers (as Set himself was never actually a Pharaoh). Sometimes he will appear in his Human form with the head of an ass, or a jackal, in mockery of Pflarr. He also favors the form of an absolutely huge (20' long) scorpion, which is one of the forms best known to the Alasiyani nomads. Symbol: A coiled serpent; or a snake in a figure eight (infinity) swallowing it's own tail (Great Hule); or any one of a number of snake motifs. Now, there are a fair number of adventure hooks here, as well. For example, now we all have something to do with White Isle from GAZ4, otherwise pretty unremarkable... eh? [Not that I left Ierendi that way (who did???), by any means! IMC Ierendi is more like England taken straight from the Graham Chapman movie "Yellowbeard", with Pirates and all] .What would happen in your campaign if Set started shaking things up on the mainland? The Monks from White Isle might well be the only force in position to know anything about it! [IMC, White Isle is the center of the Church of Ierendi, which reveres a modern trinity of Orisis, Ausar and Eskar; it is also the center of the Silver Council, a union of Wizards who work for Good (sort of a Mystaran Istari, only not Immortals like Gandalf and such; or would the Istari be Exalted?)]. Of course, your players will think you're a little silly when you have this odd priest start hanging around with them, until he's the only one who can help them against the Minions of Set... heh, heh, heh... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:45:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaros & Canon In a message dated 97-05-09 03:43:00 EDT, Delarius wrote: << I've been watching Mystaros being slammed for not distinguishing between Canon and his own campaign. I don't quite get it, I've never had a problem with his posts in that manner. Mystaros almost always prefaces his own material with "IMC" (In My Campaign), and most of his work does extrapolate and work well within canonical boundaries (as well as possible with the conflicting canon of our favorite world). I've never "read between the lines" of his posts and gotten the impression that he feels his material is semi-canon or somehow better than our own campaign ideas, Never. Mystaros, I feel you should keep up all the incredible work you've been doing, and not worry too much if some get a bit confused. Or at least, I hope no one takes offense (to this post, to any of Mystaros' posts, or to any replies to either! :)). Just a vote of support I guess. Delarius >> Thanks for the vote of confidence! As Delarius says, I haven't meant to demean anyone's efforts in any way, shape or form. I seem overly zealous, perhaps, in expounding on my own work, but I just get real excited about it, because I enjoy Mystara so much. To anyone who feels offended in any way, I apologize, and I shall try to restrain myself in the future... Mystaros (BTW, I figure once my wife turns 21 in June I'll be taking her out dancing so much I won't have time for Mystara anymore... ahhh, the sacrifices we husbands must make! ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:55:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hollow World - Immortal insurance policy? In a message dated 97-05-09 08:58:07 EDT, dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it (DM) writes: << Probably not every Immortal has followers on the HW cause they don't care: i think they may have followers on other planets of the prime (Mystara is important, OK, but it's not the only ONE planet teeming with living species) Or maybe it's just the Immortals have to pass an examination to be welcomed in the HW project... and you know, sometimes the Council of HW is really nasty.. as some professors i know...:) >> Another point to consider is that an Immortal will use up a great deal of his permanent power in transferring a culture to the Hollow World -- thus, an Immortal actually has to have a fairly secure power base before he can even consider such projects. Then the key is to transfer a culture that is solely dedicated to that Immortal. Pflarr, for example, did indeed get his "Immortal insurance" by transfering the Hutaakans to the Hollow World -- their cultural bias does not seem to permit following any other Immortal. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:25:05 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara name In a message dated 97-05-10 00:31:34 EDT, you write: << >I've tried to find out who came up with Mystara, but aas yet to no avail. Are you referring to the world or just the name? I remember TSR running a "Name That World" contest in some promotional material, and then a while later the name Mystara started being used, so I just assumed that that was the name that won. Bruce, it seems like we need you for this one. Was Mystara the winner, or did the contest yield no usable name, leaving it up to the staff? >> IIRC, I don't think anyone actually won the contest. I came up with several names of my own and discussed these and others that had been generated by the contest, with the Mystara design group. They elected the word Mystara (Mystery-Star). Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:24:18 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Champagne du le Stomp In a message dated 97-05-10 00:29:05 EDT, Patrick writes: << Champagne du le Stomp is the name from Rahasia. >> Oh yeah... I remember that quote. That's when I was translating TSR's modules into French. I just about fell off my chair when I found the quote, and considered for a moment savagely stabbing Tracy Hickman with by pencil for this contribution to French literature! I shiver still. My ancestors roll over in their graves. Harumph... First off, it would be Champagne *du* Stomp. And naturally, stomp is not a French word. I would use instead the closest translation (sorta) I can think of for *stomp*, which would be *pietine* -- thus Champagne de la Pietine. Funny that in English, *Pietine* somehow smacks of paladinhood. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:21:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Minotaurs (was: Re: [Mystara] More Module Tidbits) In a message dated 97-05-09 20:16:05 EDT, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << That's probably it, Delarius. You've hit the nail on the head - acronyms just aren't fantasy! >> What is most jarring is the "fact" that very few people on Mystara speak English -- so we must presume that any names we see that include obvious English words must be translations of the corresponding Thyatian, Alphatian, or whatever. And that is what makes the acronyms truly jarring -- after all, there is no reason to assume that the first letters of the Alphatian words for "New Alphatian Confederated Empire" spell "NACE". And if any of this material has been translated into other languages, then I suspect that the acronyms may not make much sense to them -- especially if the new language is a non-European language. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:00:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Manacapuru and Yuan-ti On Sat, 10 May 1997, stan wrote: >FWIW I didn't like the Yuan-ti/Manacapuru connection for a number of reasons. >Just because Mystara is now officially AD&D I don't see any great reason just to bring in AD&D monsters willy nilly. Doing this IMHO you just destroy some of the Mystara-ness of Mystara. I felt this way as well with the nilbolg events in the AC 1012 Almanac as well. I think Mystara has enough monsters, and many of them interesting enough, not to import monsters blindly from AD&D. I am not saying that no monsters should be brought over from AD&D but it would be good if we could create a list of monsters we think should be brought over or something. To some extent I agree with you there. I also think its important to keep Mystara different and unique. I tend to ignore most of such practice. On the Yuan-ti, I haven't really decided yet, and since it doesn't really concern my campaign, it may take some time for me to think through this. The work done on the Yuan-ti seems wery good though, but in the future I think we should primarily use Mystara Monsters. We could create our own ofcourse, but as you (Shawn) say, there are enough monsters (and animals). lets try to primarlily use the Monsters that we really associate with just mystara. Which would that be, do you think? >I also didn't like the idea because it seems to continue an underlying idea that most people don't want to invent any more new immortals. (I am not saying that this underlying idea exists - I am merely saying that I believe that I have sensed it). Yes. There are many Immortals. at the very least these should be considered the most important ones. There has been many Immortals who are now gone or dead, and there will be more new ones ofcourse. If any NPC's should achieve immortality in future timelines that would be okay. But basically I think enough is enough. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.eduhttp://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:12:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Acronyms (was: Minotaurs) On Sat, 10 May 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >What is most jarring is the "fact" that very few people on Mystara speak English -- so we must presume that any names we see that include obvious English words must be translations of the corresponding Thyatian, Alphatian, or whatever. And that is what makes the acronyms truly jarring -- after all, there is no reason to assume that the first letters of the Alphatian words for "New Alphatian Confederated Empire" spell "NACE". And if any of this material has been translated into other languages, then I suspect that the acronyms may not make much sense to them -- especially if the new language is a non-European language. Good point. So what do we do? We could invent some new names. Ideas anyone? Herve? On NACE it is possible that the Alphatians couldn't come up with a nicer name. But instead of using the acronyms we could rather assume that people refer to it as the Confederate Empire or something. Like we europeans refer to the USA as America, or the United States. (sorry to bring that up again Sebastian Quiles :) When it comes to Ionace we probably should come up with some other name. (Herve Musseau, you made this up, are you still around? Otherwise your work is great though :) Haavard - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:49:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara name On Sat, 10 May 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-10 00:31:34 EDT, you write: ><< >I've tried to find out who came up with Mystara, but aaas yet to no avail. >Are you referring to the world or just the name? I remember TSR running a "Name That World" contest in some promotional material, and then a while later the name Mystara started being used, so I just assumed that that was the name that won. >Bruce, it seems like we need you for this one. Was Mystara the winner, or did the contest yield no usable name, leaving it up to the staff? >> >IIRC, I don't think anyone actually won the contest. I came up with several names of my own and discussed these and others that had been generated by the contest, with the Mystara design group. They elected the word Mystara (Mystery-Star). >Bruce Heard Mystery-star eh? :) Do you by any chance remember any of the other names suggested? Just for the sake of curiousity. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:33:41 +1000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Manacapuru and Yuan-ti and Nithian Immortals ><< And I also didn't like the idea because I thought it would make a better story >with a new snake-like immortal lurking around down there - rather than just having a natives-scared-by-monsters scenario. >> >Well, actually, IMC they DO worship a "new" Immortal; my own D&D version of Set (not new in general at all, but he is to D&D; see my campaign's "Origins of Nithia" that I posted last week). IMC, the Manacapuru are the barbarian surivors of the Southern Colonies of the Nithians who have been corrupted by Set; the Yuan-Ti (and the odd Serpentine) are his servants, and the Manacapuru serve them. I'd adapted the Yuan-Ti to D&D before Mystara became an AD&D line because I thought they were a cool race to use... and the Manacapuru aren't "scared" by the Yuan-Ti, they REVERE them, which is much, much worse from an adventurers point of view... heh, heh, heh... Yeah I remember seeing the new Nithian Immortals that you had in that posting. Rather than wondering if you done write ups for all those immortals I'll ask if you've done one for Set - I've always had a fondness for Set :) BTW, your campaign direction for Manacapuru seems really interesting - I for one wouldn't seeing something about that either. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:26:36 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures >After their debacle on Mount Olympus, I would say that they were spending several centuries clearing out the "Immortal Stables"... the Immortals that posed as the Greek Gods were detailed in the section of lesser-known Immortals in the WotI rulebook. I doubt they had any influence in the Milenian Empire, as they were rather young Immortals in WotI (Bemarris, Kythria, Lokena, Palson, Patura, Taroyas, Turmis were all Initiates), while they ranged from Temporal to Empyreal in IM2. Therefore, I would say that IM2 takes place sometime in the future rather than the past, as there also follows a Golden Age, in which the arts expand and war declines, etc, of which there has been no mention in any history... Since this subject came up, let me share the little bit of Immortal work that I've done. It concerns IM2 and the "upstart" Immortals. I'm not sure how well this melds with "cannon" (the dreaded word these days) but here are my ideas: THE NEW OLYMPIANS This is a case of new Immortals wanting to belong to something, and trying to make themselves look important. Most other Immortals completely ignore them or laugh behind their backs. They truely believe they are an up-and-coming power, and their sponsers and willing to let them be as long as they don't get too strong-headed, or become a danger to themselves or others. Justice would be swift and painfully embarrassing to these "youngsters." With 5 Hierarchs, an Eternal, and an Empyreal as their individual sponsers, they are comfortably under control. "Zeus" - Taroyas (Sphere: Time - Sponser: Khoronus) Founder of the New Olympians as a strength in numbers organization. Patron of Kingship. He and Patura are lovers. "Hera" - Patura (Sphere: Energy - Sponser: Ixion) Almost joined Entropy. Patron of downtrodden women. Her and Taroyas are lovers. "Poseidon" - *** (Sphere: Time) Taroyas has been trying to attract Protius' attention to the group but the ancient Immortal will have nothing to do with them. Patron of the sea. "Demeter" - *** (Sphere: Time) Thought has been given to Ordana, but everyone fears she would prove as unsympathetic as Protius (and they are right about this). Patron of agriculture. "Apollo" - Palson (Sphere: Thought - Sponser: Noumena) Multi-talented and amorous. Patron of fine arts and healing. "Artimis" - *** (Sphere: Thought) This position is completely open to any female who wants it. Patron of hunting, unmarried girls and chasity. "Hephaestus" - *** (Sphere: Matter) The Twelve Watchers has shown interest, but most feel uncomfortable with him (them?). The Olympians really want someone like Wayland, architect of Pandius. (No chance!) "Athena" - Lokena (Sphere: Matter - Sponser: Ka) Enjoys a good fight. Patron of wisdom, skills and warfare. "Ares" - Bemarris (Sphere: Energy - Sponser: Thor) Tempermental and stubborn. Patron of war. "Aphrodite" - Kythria (Sphere: Energy - Sponser: Eiryndul) Much like Valeris, but hates her for some reason. Patron of love. She and Harrow (not an Olympian) are lovers. "Hermes" - Turmis (Sphere: Thought - Sponser: Korotiku) Clever and a show-off. Patron of theives and messengers. "Hestia" - *** (Sphere: Matter) This position is completely open to any female who wants it. Patron of hearth, home and virginity. "Pluto" - *** (Sphere: Entropy) This position poses a special problem for the Olympians. Orcus is the obvious choice, but they're afraid to ask, because he just might accept! But they do need an entropic Immortal - preferably one they could control instead of the other way around. Leptar is the other choice but NOBODY wants that dull-witted brute around. Patron of the dead. (The Immortal canidate Brannart McGreggor is a possibility...if he makes it) Anyway, there it is. Do with it what you like. I plan on using it when/if my PCs gain Immortality to have these folks contact one of them for a position in their group. Not only will it get them intimately involved in IM2, but in a whole range of Immortal plotting and schemeing. Besides it will give them a chance to have some allies fairly soon - maybe after some kind of "initiation"...hmmm, all sorts of possibilities there. :) Enjoy! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:56:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures On Sat, 10 May 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: Interesting. Here are a couple of my thoughts, offhand: >"Hephaestus" - *** (Sphere: Matter) The Twelve Watchers has shown interest, but most feel uncomfortable with him (them?). The Olympians really want someone like Wayland, architect of Pandius. (No chance!) Kagyar might be an appropriate choice, as well. >"Pluto" - *** (Sphere: Entropy) This position poses a special problem for the Olympians. Orcus is the obvious choice, but they're afraid to ask, because he just might accept! But they do need an entropic Immortal - preferably one they could control instead of the other way around. Leptar is the other choice but NOBODY wants that dull-witted brute around. Patron of the dead. (The Immortal canidate Brannart McGreggor is a possibility...if he makes it) This one's a tough one; can't think of anything offhand... How about "Pan" - *** (Sphere: Time, I think) Faunus, patron of forest creatures and revelry. "Bacchus" - *** (Sphere: ?) I can't think of a good candidate offhand, but you can't have a Greek Pantheon without good ol' Bacchus (or is it Dionysus in Greek? Bacchanalias are... Greek, right? So it must be Bacchus...). Anyway, you need the patron of Wine, Arts, and Revelry around. Maybe Usamigaras (the halfling Immortal) could fill this role? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:15:00 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara name In a message dated 97-05-10 16:07:14 EDT, Haavard writes: << Do you by any chance remember any of the other names suggested? Just for the sake of curiousity. >> No I don't. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:50:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures; Traldar Immortals In a message dated 97-05-10 23:40:07 EDT, you write: << Anyway, there it is. Do with it what you like. I plan on using it when/if my PCs gain Immortality to have these folks contact one of them for a position in their group. Not only will it get them intimately involved in IM2, but in a whole range of Immortal plotting and schemeing. Besides it will give them a chance to have some allies fairly soon - maybe after some kind of "initiation"...hmmm, all sorts of possibilities there. :) Enjoy! Steve >> Sounds really interesting and well thought out. Let us know what happens when you use it. This reminded me of my Pantheon of Traldar Immortals that I developed for my campaign to go along with the ancient Traldar history; these Immortals are the old Immortals of the Traldar, that were worshipped before the Beastman War of 1000 BC; they are still worshipped by the Traldar of the Hollow World, though Halav, Petra and Zirchos (Zirchev) are also popular Great Heroes... Needless to say, it was modeled after the ancient Greek pantheon, as the Traldar were also desined with the Greeks in mind. All of this is IMC, of course... [The Traldar Kingdoms of the HW, needless to say, make an excellent setting for a Hercules/Xena style game]! Immortals of the Elder Traldar (Not including the Great Heroes**) Traldar Name Common Name AL Areas of Concern Asterios* Asterius TN Trade, Merchants, Thieves Cthonos Thanatos CE Death, The Underworld Daros* Kagyar TN Craftsmanship, Metalworking Dianna* Diulanna NG Willpower, Archery, The Moon Gaea* Djaea TN Fertility, Crops Heilos* Ixion TN The Sun and Harvest Hela Hel CN Magic, The Stars Khoronos* Khoronus TN Time, Wisdom, Rulership Night Nyx TN Darkness, the Night, Revenge Panos Faunus CN Wine, Herdsmen Protios Protius TN The Sea, Sea Travel Sonios* Ilsundal LG Forests, Music Tarastia* Tarastia LN Justice Tauros* Thor LN War, Valiant Combat Terra* Terra LN The Earth Tyche* Tyche CN Luck Valeria* Valerias CN Love, Romance, Passion * These Immortals are the "Tarsian Twelve" of the Traldar. The home of the Elder Traldar Immortals was believed to be found on Mount Tarsus, the highest peak in the Altan Tepe/Black Peaks/Cruth Mountain Range. Though Daros/Kagyar had been the original Patron Immortal of the Traldar, the Traldar mythology developed greatly over the centuries, adapting many of the Immortals of the Earth People and the People of the Night (the local peoples descended from the Taymorans). These Immortals included Thanatos, Hel, Nyx and Faunus. Khoronos was the ostensible ruler of the Tarsian Twelve, though Ixion took the lead in many cases. These Immortals are still worshipped in much the same manner by the Traldar peoples of the Hollow World, though the Hero Cults of Halav, Petra and Zirchev are strong there as well. ** The Hero Cults revered the many Great Heroes of the Traldar people. While most were mortal men (and women) who had attained Great Hero status (such as Sclaras, still revered today in Thyatis, as well as in the Milenian Empire and Traldar Territories), a fair number were Scions of the Immortals (Darocles, the founder of Mesonias was one such). The Hero Cults of the Elder Traldar are still reflected today in the Church of Traladara, as Halav, Petra and Zirchev were Great Heroes of the last days of the Elder Traldar Unlike these three, the Great Heroes of the Traldar Hero Cults were not necessarily Immortals; a very few were Immortals, and while some others had attained Exalted status under their respective Immortal Patron, most had simply passed on as any normal mortal would, and their former Patron Immortal kept their spirit alive by granting a few spells to worshippers. The Hero tradition among the Hin of the Five Shires is also an outgrowth of the ancient Hero Cults of the Elder Traldar, adapted to the Halfling way of life and belief. Again, all IMC... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:33:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara name TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: >IIRC, I don't think anyone actually won the contest. I came up with several names of my own and discussed these and others that had been generated by the contest, with the Mystara design group. They elected the word Mystara (Mystery-Star). You guys picked a good one. Any reason it was not Mystar? John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:30:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures Don't know how close you want these immortals to be like those in real world myth. But here are a few thoughts, S.B. Wilson pontificated: >"Zeus" - Taroyas (Sphere: Time - Sponser: Khoronus) Founder of the New Olympians as a strength in numbers organization. Patron of Kingship. He and Patura are lovers. Not bother and sister too :). Zeus is also lord of sky. >"Hera" - Patura (Sphere: Energy - Sponser: Ixion) Almost joined Entropy. Patron of downtrodden women. Her and Taroyas are lovers. Hera is patron of all married women. >"Artimis" - *** (Sphere: Thought) This position is completely open to any female who wants it. Patron of hunting, unmarried girls and chasity. How many female immortals fit the chasity part? >"Hermes" - Turmis (Sphere: Thought - Sponser: Korotiku) Clever and a show-off. Patron of theives and messengers. Can't quite remember, but he might not be one of the big 12. Hermes later also became patron of travlers, merchants, and athelets. >"Hestia" - *** (Sphere: Matter) This position is completely open to any female who wants it. Patron of hearth, home and virginity. Once again, don't know how many female immortal fit the virgin part of job description. IIRC, Athena is also a virgin godess. Sometime Hestia is replaced by Boccau(sp?) as one of the big 12. >"Pluto" - *** (Sphere: Entropy) This position poses a special problem for the Olympians. Orcus is the obvious choice, but they're afraid to ask, because he just might accept! But they do need an entropic Immortal - preferably one they could control instead of the other way around. Leptar is the other choice but NOBODY wants that dull-witted brute around. Patron of the dead. (The Immortal canidate Brannart McGreggor is a possibility...if he makes it) Hades (as you being using Greek names) while closely related to death, is quite lawful in many ways. Manages the underworld in an orderly manner. Makes sure sinner get punished and good people go to Elysian Fields, etc. But I always want to see an lawful entropic immortal. Someone who want to spread chaos and conflict, but want to do it in an organized way, I guess. The Mystaran Hades will probably spend alot of time in Limbo, and people in Limbo counts as his followers, so he also want as many people die as possible. But he will allow worthy souls to leave to their proper destination. But personally, I don't like using real world names for Mystarian immortals. It opens up the question where did they get those names from. Also, by using real world names, I felt some of the fantasy elements is lost. Names like Thanatos are OK, as most people are not familar with it enough, so it still sound fantasyish. But I hated it when Northern Reach Gaz. introduced Odin, Thor, and rest of the Norse pantheon. It became even worse when they try to explain exactly who Odin is. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:40:32 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Acronyms At 01.40 09/05/97 +0100, Thorfinn wrote: TThat sounds cool. Having a Minotaur Kingdom is a cool idea, but if you are using the list's Almanac in your campaign then obviously it can't be Monster Island. (Sorry, but I will NEVER say Ionace, and I will NEVER say NACE... I'm not an abbreviation person, unlike [apparently] Commander Broderick [or rather Michael Roy...] ;-) NACE and Ionace were created by Herve, not Micheal. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #75 **************************** Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:25:22 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #76 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 8aedcdcf63295f9494b50bdc7c7b1753 mystara-digest Tuesday, May 13 1997 Volume 02 : Number 076 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:40:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another Wendar tidbit Did you know that the first ruler of Libya was King Muhammed Idris? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:34:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Black Vessel On Thu, 8 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >I just finished reading the Savage Coast novel "The Black Vessel", and I must say I am impressed. It really did instill me with an interest in the Savage Coast and the Red Curse far beyond what I had before... >What's more, I enjoyed the characterisation very much - up until very near the end it is not entirely clear how things are going to work out, nor indeed who the real heroes and villains are, though there are certain characters I was "rooting" for. :-) >Does anyone else have an opinion on the book? I heartily recommend it to anyone even vaguely interested in the Savage Coast and in swashbuckling heroes and reclusive old wizards. ;-) Its the best Mystara novel Ive read. I hate it those books go against coanon material. I liked Dark Knight of Karameikos too til the end where it was mixed with the blood war. Since I want too keep Mystara seperate from the Ad&d Multiverse that was a great disappointment. The characters were very interesting, and I liked the idea of a very powerful Wizard in the baronies. Too bad we cant have any more books about him. I hope the people working on the Almanac will include info on these characters in the future. :) Also, I love the Savage Coast. Possibly because I have spent much time in Spain and know a litle of the language. I have never actually run a campaign there though, put it would be fun. Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:52:25 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Theme revisited Its has been discussed the what the Theme of this world is. OR possibly just the Known World (Thyatis Region) In any way, to make a world feel real, I think the people in that world should be important. If we feel like we know people living in that world, it will make that world feel more real. Thats why I felt that the inclusion of what Haldenar of Haaken was doing in the Almanacs was a good one. Also there should be good guys and bad guys. This is no problem in Mystara. Rulers should be important. The Emperor of Thyatis might be seen as a good guy. If the new almanac could help portray the NPCs as such I think that would be good :) Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:38:38 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures >How about "Pan" - *** (Sphere: Time, I think) Faunus, patron of forest creatures and revelry. >"Bacchus" - *** (Sphere: ?) I can't think of a good candidate offhand, but you can't have a Greek Pantheon without good ol' Bacchus (or is it Dionysus in Greek? Bacchanalias are... Greek, right? So it must be Bacchus...). Anyway, you need the patron of Wine, Arts, and Revelry around. Maybe Usamigaras (the halfling Immortal) could fill this role? I could use these, but I was just trying to stick to the original 12. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:45:40 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures >>"Artimis" - *** (Sphere: Thought) This position is completely open to any female who wants it. Patron of hunting, unmarried girls and chasity. >How many female immortals fit the chasity part? I'm not saying they have to be chaste themselves :) just have to be patron of mortal chasity ;) >>"Hermes" - Turmis (Sphere: Thought - Sponser: Korotiku) Clever and a show-off. Patron of theives and messengers. >Can't quite remember, but he might not be one of the big 12. Hermes later also became patron of travlers, merchants, and athelets. Yup, he's one of the 12, I double-checked. >>"Hestia" - *** (Sphere: Matter) This position is completely open to any female who wants it. Patron of hearth, home and virginity. >Once again, don't know how many female immortal fit the virgin part of job description. IIRC, Athena is also a virgin godess. Sometime Hestia is replaced by Boccau(sp?) as one of the big 12. Again, they don't have to be a virgin themselves - but maybe in the future, some Immortal canidate will be a virgin (maybe a PC?) >Hades (as you being using Greek names) while closely related to death, is quite lawful in many ways. Manages the underworld in an orderly manner. Makes sure sinner get punished and good people go to Elysian Fields, etc. But I always want to see an lawful entropic immortal. Someone who want to spread chaos and conflict, but want to do it in an organized way, I guess. The Mystaran Hades will probably spend alot of time in Limbo, and people in Limbo counts as his followers, so he also want as many people die as possible. But he will allow worthy souls to leave to their proper destination. Oops...slip of the name...Hades it is :) >But personally, I don't like using real world names for Mystarian immortals. It opens up the question where did they get those names from. I can't really explain it right now (maybe when I get it organized myself) but I have some connection with Immortal names and the old ones. I also have some connection between Immortals and dieties with the same name of other campaign worlds. It's really confusing - even to me...I might try to write it out some time. >Also, by using real world names, I felt some of the fantasy elements is lost. Names like Thanatos are OK, as most people are not familar with it enough, so it still sound fantasyish. But I hated it when Northern Reach Gaz. introduced Odin, Thor, and rest of the Norse pantheon. It became even worse when they try to explain exactly who Odin is. Good point. I believe that is why the other Immortals got upset with these New Olympians in IM2. They are abusing sacred names, so-to-speak. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:07:05 -0700 From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Theme revisited At 03:52 PM 5/11/97 +0200, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >In any way, to make a world feel real, I think the people in that world should be important. If we feel like we know people living in that world, it will make that world feel more real. Thats why I felt that the inclusion of what Haldenar of Haaken was doing in the Almanacs was a good one. Also there should be good guys and bad guys. This is no problem in Mystara. Rulers should be important. The Emperor of Thyatis might be seen as a good guy. If the new almanac could help portray the NPCs as such I think that would be good :) I don't know that I would call Thincol (if that's who you mean) a "good guy" or a "bad guy." There are things he does that I think are good, and others not. Having thoroughly evil and despicable villains that we love to hate is important, and Mystara does have plenty of them, but what makes Mystara particularly special, IMO and as mentioned by others too, is the great number of characters who are not clearly good or bad, but have complex histories and characters such that they elude such binary terminology. It takes many of the stereotypes of villainy or goodness and lends them an extra dimension of complexity, making it more difficult to take sides. A prime example is the somewhat misunderstood Shadowelves, vs. drow in other gameworlds. Rad is certainly noble in his thoughts but rather undisturbed by the harm he causes (until nuking Sundsvall, of course). The humanoids of Thar are given are not thoroughly evil in the trivial sense, but have a history and set of circumstances that make it possible to sympathize with them. Etc. Cheers, / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:46:41 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Theme revisited >I don't know that I would call Thincol (if that's who you mean) a "good guy" or a "bad guy." There are things he does that I think are good, and others not. Having thoroughly evil and despicable villains that we love to >hate is important, and Mystara does have plenty of them, but what makes Mystara particularly special, IMO and as mentioned by others too, is the great number of characters who are not clearly good or bad, but have complex histories and characters such that they elude such binary terminology. It takes many of the stereotypes of villainy or goodness and >lends them an extra dimension of complexity, making it more difficult to take sides. A prime example is the somewhat misunderstood Shadowelves, vs. >drow in other gameworlds. Rad is certainly noble in his thoughts but rather undisturbed by the harm he causes (until nuking Sundsvall, of course). The humanoids of Thar are given are not thoroughly evil in the trivial sense, but have a history and set of circumstances that make it possible to sympathize with them. Etc. I think he meant Eusebius, probably. However, I completely agree with this. The people of Mystara are real people, with complex personalities. Even those who are evil have personalities and histories that justify this. I have studied a small amount of psychology, and the characters of Mystara make are much deeper and more realistic than those of many other fantasy worlds. This is, IMHO, one of the greatest things about Mystara. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:51:34 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Tarastia On Sun, 11 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >Immortals of the Elder Traldar (Not including the Great Heroes**) That was very interesting Mystaros, and it led me to discover a little anomaly: >Tarastia* Tarastia LN Justice According to Dawn of the Emperors, which I have been using a lot recently for a Karameikos-Thyatis-Alphatia campaign I am starting, Tarastia was in fact a Thyatian, the first Empress of Thyatis (after Emperor Zendrolion I). I think her name was Valencia the Justiciar or something. Anyway, this got me thinking "Why has Mystaros put her as an Immortal over 1000 years before she was born?" Now, knowing that you know your stuff very well Mystaros ;-), I had a look up WotI to see what had gone wrong. Sure enough, WotI places her as an ancient Jennite tribeswoman! (I realised previously there was a conflict with the Jennites, but forgot about it.) So, I know that WotI takes precedence over Dawn of the Emperors, but is there any way we can reconcile Aaron Allston's two separate ideas? The only thing I can think of is to say that Tarastia WAS the second leader of Thyatis, as a mortal form. It's an interesting conflict anyway. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:55:04 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures On Sun, 11 May 1997 Shin Chyang Yu wrote: BBut I hated it when Northern Reach Gaz. introduced Odin, Thor, and rest of the Norse pantheon. It became even worse when they try to explain exactly who Odin is. I for one was quite pleased when I saw Thor was an Immortal. ;-) But then I'm biased. Thorfinn. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:50:13 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures Hi! >The >Mystaran Hades will probably spend alot of time in Limbo, and people in Limbo counts as his followers, so he also want as many people die as possible. Once again, please tell me what´s the Limbo? Is it a creation of the list or canon? If it´s canon where is it written about? >I can't really explain it right now (maybe when I get it organized myself) but I have some connection with Immortal names and the old ones. I also have some connection between Immortals and dieties with the same name of other campaign worlds. It's really confusing - even to me...I might try to write it out some time. That´s exactly the same with my campaign, I have also been trying to match AD&D Dieties and RW Gods with Mystara Immortals. It´s hard! *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:00:12 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tarastia >>Immortals of the Elder Traldar (Not including the Great Heroes**) >That was very interesting Mystaros, and it led me to discover a little anomaly: >>Tarastia* Tarastia LN Justice >According to Dawn of the Emperors, which I have been using a lot recently for a Karameikos-Thyatis-Alphatia campaign I am starting, Tarastia was in fact a Thyatian, the first Empress of Thyatis (after Emperor Zendrolion I). I think her name was Valencia the Justiciar or something. >Anyway, this got me thinking "Why has Mystaros put her as an Immortal Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:25:22 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #76 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 8aedcdcf63295f9494b50bdc7c7b1753 >over 1000 years before she was born?" Now, knowing that you know your stuff very well Mystaros ;-), I had a look up WotI to see what had gone wrong. Sure enough, WotI places her as an ancient Jennite tribeswoman! (I realised previously there was a conflict with the Jennites, but forgot about it.) >So, I know that WotI takes precedence over Dawn of the Emperors, but is there any way we can reconcile Aaron Allston's two separate ideas? The only thing I can think of is to say that Tarastia WAS the second leader of Thyatis, as a mortal form. >It's an interesting conflict anyway. >Thorf. You're certainly right. Perhaps the Jennite tibeswoman was Tarastia's original life, then, when she undertook the path of the Polymath (IIRC), one of her "lives" was as Valencia. Would this work? Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:05:20 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures Once again, please tell me what´s the Limbo? Is it a creation of the list or canon? If it´s canon where is it written about? It is canon. It was written in one of Bruce Heard's "Voyages of the Princess Ark" articles in Dragon magazine. I'm afraid I don't know the number, but it was when Haldemar was exploring the Savage Baronies (Vilaverde, IIRC). It was reprinted in Champions of Mystara boxed set. I didn't quite get it, but it's some sort of place where the "person" goes after his or her body dies, at least if there is unfinished business. It is possible to escape from limbo, but it is not easy. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:35:12 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Acronyms On Sat, 10 May 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: NNACE and Ionace were created by Herve, not Micheal. Sorry, I didn't know that. So who exactly did work on the 1014 Almanac? I wasn't on the list back then so I don't know who did what. All I can tell so far is that Michael did a lot of it, and now I see Herve did some too. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:23:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures On Sun, 11 May 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: [I suggested Pan and Bacchus here] >I could use these, but I was just trying to stick to the original 12. Ah. I see. Well, Bacchus did eventually replace Hestia among the main Pantheon of Greek Gods, FWIW. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:30:17 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Everybody Limbo! (Was:[Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures) On Sun, 11 May 1997, Peter Balazs wrote: >Once again, please tell me what´s the Limbo? Is it a creation of the list or canon? If it´s canon where is it written about? Limbo is the realm of the dead that is described in one of the Princess Ark issues by Bruce Heard (issue #180, unless I'm very mistaken; I hope not, since it's so dog-eared from use, I'd like to think I'd know it by now. :) Basically, when people die, their souls go to the Plane of Limbo. There they live in towns, etc., using their soul points for money, until they either find a gateway back home (via someone casting a Raise Dead or the like, or just plain getting lucky), or their patron Immortal claims them and takes them to his/her/its homeplane, or they waste away or are slain by the creatures of Limbo, or else becomes a Lord of Chaos or a Guardian Angel. It's a very fascinating place, IMO, and I like to use it every now and again when a player's character dies. It is a means by which they don't have to remain dead, or if so, they can continue to adventure after death. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:57:52 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Everybody Limbo! (Was:[Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures) Hi! Regarding Limbo: Thanks! *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:45:25 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Theme revisited At 11:46 11-05-97 -0700, you wrote: >>I don't know that I would call Thincol (if that's who you mean) a "good guy" or a "bad guy." There are things he does that I think are good, and others not. Having thoroughly evil and despicable villains that we love tto >>hate is important, and Mystara does have plenty of them, but what makes Mystara particularly special, IMO and as mentioned by others too, is the great number of characters who are not clearly good or bad, but have complex histories and characters such that they elude such binary terminology. It takes many of the stereotypes of villainy or goodness aand >>lends them an extra dimension of complexity, making it more difficult to take sides. A prime example is the somewhat misunderstood Shadowelves, vvs. >>drow in other gameworlds. Rad is certainly noble in his thoughts but rather undisturbed by the harm he causes (until nuking Sundsvall, of course). The humanoids of Thar are given are not thoroughly evil in the trivial sense, but have a history and set of circumstances that make it possible to sympathize with them. Etc. >I think he meant Eusebius, probably. However, I completely agree with this. The people of Mystara are real people, with complex personalities. Even those who are evil have personalities and histories that justify this. II have studied a small amount of psychology, and the characters of Mystara make are much deeper and more realistic than those of many other fantasy worlds. This is, IMHO, one of the greatest things about Mystara. >Patrick I like the world, because it has a lot of possibilities to add your own things next to the things already there, and there are a lot of nice locations for everything. I just got one question, does someone have some self made adventures? I am interested in those, I want to see how others make them. Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl "Cry Havoc and release the dogs of war!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:50:57 -0400 From: Urklore The Iron Subject: [Mystara] hello ************************************************************************ * Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord * * Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) * * Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord * * Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the NetHOARD, Keeper of 79 RPG Systems * * Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling * * Hot Chocolate King, "Welcome", "You've got Mail", ROBOTECH Master * * Official Tiac "SENIOR" Customer Support/Web Team Employee! * * Muad'dib Disciple, "Predacons TERRORIZE!" "Maximals MAXIMIZE!" * * "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" * * "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." * * "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" UNIX Neophyte * * "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never ever lie * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 97 14:52:35 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Manacapuru & yuan-ti? Well, I can't speak for the rest of you, but I think, if we want to keep Manacapuru within D&D, and we want to have the natives worship some inhuman race, we could use the kopru. They're evil, scheming, vaguely Cthulhoid - the perfect "gods" for scared natives to worship, and to whom adventurers can be sacrificed. I wrote some stuff for Manacapuru a while back, when I detailed the entire northern coast of Davania for my own campaign. I'll see what I wrote.. Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:52:32 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures >"Artimis" - *** (Sphere: Thought) This position is completely open to any female who wants it. Patron of hunting, unmarried girls and chasity. I forgot to put in one note for this position: The current members are waiting to see if Loberlinn (from the Halfling Gaz. I think...) attains Immortality. Other than that, it's still open... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:17:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tarastia In a message dated 97-05-11 17:24:34 EDT, you write: << So, I know that WotI takes precedence over Dawn of the Emperors, but is there any way we can reconcile Aaron Allston's two separate ideas? The only thing I can think of is to say that Tarastia WAS the second leader of Thyatis, as a mortal form. It's an interesting conflict anyway. Thorf. >> Exactly. Valentia was one of her Mortal Identities; I can't recall exactly where it said that, but I'm sure it did somewhere... ah yes, there it is! In the description of Tarastia in the Hollow World DM's Sourcebook. It doesn't say "Mortal Identity", but as she couldn't have been in full Manifestation Form (and as the terms weren't in use in the HWDMS), I figured it must have been a Mortal ID; though some might interpret it as a "reincarnation" and subsequent reattainment of Immortality, on the path to becoming an Old One, I chose to go with the Mortal ID... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Manacapuru & yuan-ti? In a message dated 97-05-12 16:48:46 EDT, you write: << I wrote some stuff for Manacapuru a while back, when I detailed the entire northern coast of Davania for my own campaign. I'll see what I wrote.. Geoff >> A very interesting alternative; I look forward to seeing your material! Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:48:19 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Almanac At 21.35 11/05/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Sat, 10 May 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: NNNACE and Ionace were created by Herve, not Micheal. >Sorry, I didn't know that. So who exactly did work on the 1014 Almanac? I wasn't on the list back then so I don't know who did what. All I can tell so far is that Michael did a lot of it, and now I see Herve did some too. As far as I know (not much, to tell the truth) Micheal did the most of it, Herve certainly did the stuff about NACE and probably that about the Karameikan Polar Expedition, Cthulhudrew did much of the work about 'noids, I helped them putting together the events about Shadow Elves and personally wrote the report on the raising of Aengmor. Sorry if I forgot someone. Anyway I think everyone on the list gave his/her contribution when discussing Micheal's draft. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:39:27 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Enduks' History (the official stuff) Ok, it's me again with enduks. First of all i wanna say i'm sorry that i gave that false reference to Gylgarid in one of my previous posts. I don't really know why i put that name there: i hadn't ever heard it before, so imagine my surprise when i discovered that it existed, and was a sort of minotaur Immortal in X13... Anyway, what lies in the lines below is the official Enduks' history taken from Orc's Head peninsula sourcebook, available at TSR ftp site: go and check for it, cause it's very interesting. It's all TSR Trademarks and copyright, so i don't want to break any laws here, OK TSR guys? Have u Heard me? :) ENDUKS’ HISTORY Long ago the enduks were created when a herald of Idu rendered a great service to his patron. As a reward for Gildesh, his servant, Idu formed a race with some of Gildesh's features. Gildesh was a shedu, a winged bull with a human head, and he ruled over Idu's newly created followers, who for practical reasons had been given winged humanoid bodies and the heads of bulls. These were creatures of exalted goodness who lived to serve Gildesh, which means the defender in their language, and further the ideals of Idu—the sun. Centuries later, Gildesh had enough followers to found a kingdom in the western part of the Orc's Head Peninsula. It was called Nimmur, which means the homeland. Over the centuries, envoys of other Immortals quietly influenced some of Gildesh's followers, introducing greed and violence to the Nimmurians. One of those, a warrior known as Minoides, betrayed Gildesh over a holy treasure and killed him. As he died, Gildesh cursed his murderer and his treacherous lackeys, who fled Nimmur and lost their wings. They became the evil minotaurs of the world. Gildesh was not truly dead, just banished to another plane by the death of his mortal body. Idu suggested that he give his followers time to learn and grow on their own and Gildesh agreed to return only every third century. During his absence, the manscorpions arrived and were welcomed by the peaceful Nimmurians. They were beset by the orcs of the Dark Jungle. The manscorpions aided them during the struggle, only to turn against their allies once that fighting was done. When the manscorpions overran their cities, the enduks were forced to flee and with the help of the ee'aar, they relocated to a vast plateau hidden in the mountains of the Arm of the Immortals. The Eshu plateau was infested with monsters but the enduks and ee'aar working together eradicated them. The enduk were ecstatic about their new, secluded land where they could honor their Immortal patron, Idu, and their spiritual leader, Gildesh. The kingdom was named for the priest-king Eshu, who ruled ancient Nimmur at the time of their flight to the Arm of the Immortals. Upon pacifying the northern end of the plateau, he had the great fortress of Gildesh built to hold its entrance. He died several years later at the Battle of Urduk, when Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:25:22 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #76 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 8aedcdcf63295f9494b50bdc7c7b1753 several hordes of orcs attempted to find a way onto the plateau. Idu's herald Gildesh returned a decade ago and is now ruling for another mortal lifetime. Today, the enduks are a peaceful race of farmers and soldiers who live simply. They grow crops in the rich soil, hunt boar and deer and fish in their many rivers. As before, they build villages, cities, temples, and fortresses, though not such grand ones as they once constructed in ancient Nimmur. End Quoting DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:15:47 +0000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Timeline for the Wendar-Denagoth Region (BC 6000 - BC 1701) essage-Id: Timeline for the Wendar - Denagoth Region v 2.3 BC 6000 There is no true civilisation in the Outer World. Humans are tribal hunter-gatherers, living mostly in plains and light forests. They are divided into three great races: Neathar (light-skinned), Oltec (copper-skinned), and Tanagoro (black-skinned). Dwarves are barbaric mountain and foothill dwellers, mostly goatherds. Elves are sheltered, protected and nurtured by the forest-spirits they worship; they do not need to work or suffer. There are no monstrous humanoids on the world to threaten the demihumans. Halflings live in the rolling hills and forests of the southern continent, some distance from the elves, whom they respect greatly. (HW) BC 5000 The childhood of the elves is over; the forest spirits stop sheltering them, forcing them to leave paradise and to seek their own futures. The first great elf civilisation, Evergrun, rises on the southern continent. (HW) BC 4500 Beastmen - reincarnated souls of evil beings - appear in the upper Borean Valley, a frozen land north of Blackmoor. These beastmen are wild, chaotic creatures that do not breed true; whelps may have some or none of the traits of their parents, may be of different size and appearance. This is all brought about by the magic of Hel, who wants to introduce more confusion, dismay, and death into the world. (HW and GAZ10) BC 4100 Neathar living near the Borean Valley establish the first contacts with Beastmen and begin to trade and barter after the initial diffidence of the humans and some minor skirmishes. In the following decades, intermarriage becomes quite common among some humans and a small number of Beastman tribes, and a new stock of people (children of Neathar and Beastmen) spread in this area, living peaceably alongside the Beastmen and the Neathar. These people have purely human characteristics despite their parentage. Hel did not plan for this to happen but when she saw that it was starting to happen she decided to let it and watch the consequences. BC 4000 The human Blackmoor civilisation begins a meteoric rise due to its great success in developing powerful sciences and technologies. It conquers and assimilates all surrounding human tribes and quickly grows very powerful. (HW) BC 3500 The Blackmoor civilisation is flourishing. It conducts trade and intermittent war with the southern elves, at the other end of the world. (HW) Blackmoor priests demand the extermination of the "unnatural" beastmen in the upper Borean Valley, and promote holy wars to hunt down and destroy those creatures. (HW) By this time the elves of Evergrun who are curious about the world in which they live in migrate from Evergrun. Four clans, the ancestors of modern Shadow Elves, colonise the area near Blackmoor. Another clan, the Aquarendi settles near the sea further to the south of Blackmoor. Another clan, the Geffronell, settle in a forested area which would later become known as Wendar. (HW modified) The elves who settled near Blackmoor are influenced by the Blackmoor culture as are the elves in Evergrun who keep in contact with them. They also try to influence the Aquarendi but they are rather more obstinate. There is no contact with the Geffronell as they left Evergrun slightly earlier than the other clans and did not keep contact with Evergrun. (HW modified) The widespread Neathar race is beginning to undergo development; the language in individual areas changes rapidly into very different dialects, and the independent Neathar tribes no longer recognise a kinship or a common origin among themselves. (HW) BC 3200 The Blackmoor crusades drive the Beastmen farther north, into the land called Hyborea; they adapt to the colder climate and survive. The humanoid race born from the Neathar-Beastmen crossbreed flees south-eastward instead, retreating to the inhospitable mountains eluding the Blackmoorian pursuers. These mountains are the area which will become known as the Icereach Mountains. The Neathar-Beastmen crossbreeds inhabit the southern parts of these mountains just north of what will become known as the Denagothian Plateau. (HW modified) BC 3100 The Aquarendi clan are finally sick of the continual pressure from the Blackmoor elves to embrace technology. The Aquarendi have tried to gain aid from Ordana but she is unhappy with all elves at the moment and how most they have turned from her path. The Aquarendi seek the guardianship of Manwara, an Immortal of the sea who is more open to their plight, and enter the warm waters to begin a new life. (PC3 modified) BC 3000 In Blackmoor a nuclear device in the Beagle which had been tampered with by locals explodes in an event later called the Great Rain of Fire which wipes out the immediate area including the Blackmoor civilisation. The axis of the Known World is shifted causing the Blackmoor area to closer to the north pole and the elvish civilisation moves closer to the south pole; the elves migrate to their colony of Grunland (which now begins centuries of volcanic upheaval that lead to its being renamed Vulcania). (HW modified) Large areas around Blackmoor including much of the Gazetter area is darkened by clouds thrown up during the explosion. A nuclear winter scenario exists over much of this area. Ice activity is increased in mountainous and near-mountain areas and glacial activity is increased or initiated in such areas. In the Geffronells' territory many elves suffer because of the Blackmoor catastrophe and the following nuclear winter. Some of them contract a rotting disease and die, others begin to loose their memories of the past and slowly isolate from their neighbours. BC 2990 Nine elf-mages join together to prevent the utter annihilation of their folk and eventually create the Elvenstar, whose curing and protecting magical properties help the elves to survive the cataclysm. In the following years they travel north to a great plateau and with the use of their combined magics create a lush healthy forest in the southern edge, and migrate there with most of their clan, settling in what they call the Great Forest of Geffron, a more secluded and safe place to live than their former valley. In the ensuing years the nine elves train many apprentices in the magical arts to give their clan a better chance to stand against the savage creatures of the surrounding regions, unknowingly completing the Trial and Testimony needed to become immortal in the Sphere of Energy. Then they travel extensively in the surrounding regions and finally find a lesser artifact of Energy, completing their Quest. At this time they realise they've stumbled on the path to immortality and search for an Immortal to sponsor them: but when they find out they have to compete against each other to attain immortality, they refuse, as they are so closely linked to each other to feel as one single person. Impressed by their show of friendship and honour, Thor agrees to sponsor them as a group, and after many battles they finally attain immortality in the Sphere of Energy. BC 2800 A separatist branch of the southern elves, led by Ilsundal the Wise, decides to abandon Blackmoor technology and return to the nature-oriented magic of their ancestors. They begin a long migration northward in the hope of finding the lost colony of the Aquarendi elves that had settled near Blackmoor. (HW modified) BC 2700 The growing tribes of Neathar-Beastmen crossbreeds spread south from their mountain homes colonising the northern parts of what will be known as the Denagothian plateau. They do not venture far enough south into the forested southern part of the plateau. BC 2500 Over time the area affected by the nuclear winter scenario decreases and glacial activity decreases as the area warms up again. By this time these areas are becoming more habitable. (HW modified) In Grunland, the elvish civilisation is losing its battle with the elements: it has forgotten most of its magic and its Blackmoor technology is failing. A second separatist group of southern elves begins the long march northward (HW) they are led by a wise elven sage named Genalleth and his young elf apprentice Enoreth. BC 2400 A human culture, the Antalian tribes (descendants of the Neathar) are flourishing in the area later to be called Norwold. They are a blond, warlike culture with bronze weapons and armour. (HW) BC 2300 By this time Ilsundal's expedition, after a long trek across western Davania, has crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortals' Arm, and headed east along the Savage Coast. Enoreth's expedition takes another route through the Addakian Sound. The two migrations do not meet up. (CoM modified) BC 2290 Genalleth dies during the trek across the Addakian Mountains. Enoreth replaces his beloved mentor as head of the expedition and heads northward. BC 2200 Some elves break off from Ilsundal's migration and eventually find their way to the frozen valleys of Glantri, where they settle. A few from Enoreth's migration also reach Glantri and settle among their cousins a little bit later. (HW modified) BC 2120 Enoreth's migration comes across a large forested area, which will later be known as Wendar. He decides to settle his people there. Enoreth calls the forest Genalleth after his mentor who died during the migration from Grunland. BC 2100 The leader of the Den tribe of Neathar-Beastmen crossbreeds, Jotakk, decides to unite her tribe with the surrounding ones. She leads the warriors of her tribe in war against the nearest neighbour in order to "persuade" them to unite. The tribe of Den is situated in the area of badlands where Gereth Minar currently stands. BC 2094 Jotakk succeeds in taking over the Kroj tribe. BC 2091 Jotakk succeeds in taking over the Zo-lak tribe. BC 2087 Jotakk takes over the Zeress tribe a particularly powerful tribe thus proving herself a capable warleader. Numerous other tribes surrounding the growing lands of the Den tribe give in an agree to join the larger tribe peacefully. Jotakk fashions herself as the ruler of a new kingdom and calls it Denagoth, which translates to the Land of the Den. BC 2000 Antalian colonists migrate southward into the lands later to be called the Northern Reaches. (HW and GAZ7) An agricultural settlement flourishes along the river Nithia; it swiftly becomes the seat of a fast growing culture. (HW) BC 1800 Genalleth elves discover the Geffronell clan living on the northern plateau and establish the first contacts with the long forgotten brethren. They soon discover the Geffronell have few vague memories of their origins and the pre-cataclysm period, and they don't remember about their homeland, Evergrun. Enoreth begins to conduct diplomatic missions to befriend the lost clan, who is at the moment very suspicious about foreigners. BC 1725 King Loark raises Great Horde at Urzud (which is located at a fork in the Borea River according the map in GAZ10) and migrates eastward, continuing his Quest for a Blue Knife. (GAZ10) [Note: GAZ14 says that the Horde moves southwards, HW says that the Horde migrates southeastward with great hordes of hill goblins, trolls and giants especially begin moving southward into areas occupied by human settlers.] Some elves move to the southern part of the plateau with the Geffronells' permission and settles in the western tip of the Great Forest of Geffron. They rename it Lothenar Forest; the two groups of elves get along well. The elves remaining in what will later be known as Wendar claim the forested valley as its own territory and rename it Genalleth Valley. Thanks to Enoreth's effort, the three groups are now linked by a solid and mutual friendship and they unite in one single elven nation, Enoreth becoming their leader. BC 1724 Akilla-Khan believing he is working off better knowledge than Loark raises an appreciably smaller horde an moves southeastward from Urzud on his Quest for the Blue Knife. BC 1723 Akilla-Khan comes across the northern edge of the Denagothian plateau and starts ravaging the Denagothians. BC 1722 The Great Horde of King Loark cross the Icereach Range and ravages the Antalian culture of Norwold and learning Norse culture, and sending the Antalians there into a dark age; the Immortals Odin and Thor send intact communities of Antalians into the Hollow World. (The descendants of the outer-world Antalians eventually become the men of the Heldann Freeholds.) (HW) Some Antalians cross the Mengul mountains and join with the Denagothians against Akilla-Khan. BC 1721 Thanks to the efforts of the brave Denagothians and of the Antalians, Akilla Khan is forced to move on southward, entering the elves' territory. Using their superior magic and knowledge of the region, the elves drive Akilla's forces out of their land, and he ends up in Ethengar. BC 1720 Akilla-Khan conquers the southern steppes (GAZ10) of Ethengar BC 1711 The Great Horde reaches pre-Khanate Ethengar. Akilla-Khan allies with King Loark against Ethengarian nomads. (HW) Shawn Stanley, Marco Dalmonte Department of Geology, Department of Communications Science Australian National University. University of Bologna, Italy (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it) (www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #76 **************************** Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:47:55 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #77 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7e350939526e88b3bfeabcc584720d83 mystara-digest Tuesday, May 13 1997 Volume 02 : Number 077 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:16:53 +0000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Timeline for the Wendar-Denagoth Region (AC 910 - AC 1014) essage-Id: AC 910 After many diplomatic missions, Gylharen finally manages to unite all of the villages of the Genalleth Valley and the Wendarian League officially becomes the Kingdom of Wendar: Gylharen is crowned first King of Wendar. The first public act of Gylharen is to declare the Idris faith unlawful inside Wendar's border and to banish or put to death every known Idris' priest, to the elves' joy. AC 914 Landryn arrives at Geron, where he meets the local priest of Idris and with his help he's able to recruit a few fighters who accompany him in his long trek throughout Denagoth, where he begins with the use of magic, corruption and intimidation, to obtain the help and the loyalty of many tribes of humanoids and Essurian clans, in his dream to raise ancient Essuria from the ashes. AC 915 Wendarian explorers come across the Sand Folk on the Adri Varma Plateau. They open diplomatic ties with these people who they call Ungolwaith. This chance encounter starts a more open policy in the Wendarian government who in time starts to make contact with surrounding nations. AC 922 Landryn sends a priest of Idris to Wendar as a spy using the network established by the cult, with the task to infiltrate the Wendar government and spy close upon their defenses, in order to exploit this information when an all-out assault will be made. AC 934 Landryn has finally retaken the fallen Drax Tallen and Gereth Minar from the Denagothians, ruling his scattered humanoid and human followers from the Tower of Gereth. He organises the systematic extermination of the Lothenar and Geffronell elves using many evil dragons to achieve his aim: by the end of the year the Lothenar elves have been completely wiped out, whereas the Geffron elves have been reduced to less than a thousand individuals living in heavily guarded areas. In these prison camps, they work as slaves to produce items useful for the New Essurian Army and are used as guinea pigs for strange genetic experiments. AC 936 Landryn discovers that his body is slowly but inevitably decaying as a result of the cleric's curse and he tries to find a cure to his disease. After a long research he finds out that Wendar magical artifact, the Elvenstar, has also curative powers besides its protective ones, and he decides to obtain that artifact in order to cure himself and to invade Wendar without too much efforts: he then arranges for the theft of the Elvenstar. AC 937 Camla, Landryn's spy, steals the Elvenstar replacing it with a false sapphire, and then flees to Gereth Minar, where he gives it to Landryn, who begins to study its magical properties. At the same time, plague and famine strike Wendar, claiming hundreds of lives, and the humanoid hordes assemble to launch their attack and to conquer Wendar under Landryn's banner. AC 938 A serious drought withers crops and depletes the water supply in Wendar: this brings on civil disorder. Gylharen puts a call out for adventurers to aid in this time of peril for Wendar, and a party of brave souls travel to Wendar to answer the king's call. The group of adventurers is able to pass beyond Landryn's lines and to reach Gereth Minar, where they fight against Landryn and his minions and recover the Elvenstar just in time to avoid Wendar's fall. Landryn is forced to flee to Drax Tallen at the end of the battle, where he desperately struggles to find another cure to his curse and to further his plan of conquest, now that his humanoid hordes have been scattered to the four winds. (These events are played out in first part of the module X11: Saga of the Shadow Lord.) AC 939 Landryn's body is on the verge of complete decay and the necromancer tries the last resort he has: he undertakes a complicated ceremony involving dark powers and foul sacrifices and with the help of Idris' priests he undergoes his transformation, becoming a vassallich. He then listens to the advice of the High Priest of Idris and tries to build up an army of undead with which he wants to crush Wendar once and for all. For this purpose, he tries to recover the fabled Blackstick, a staff that is said to create and control the undead, and he sends his minions to the last person who is reported to have had it: Bensarian. They manage to find Bensarian and force him to reveal where the Blackstick is hidden with some spells, then they leave the half dead sage and head for Enoreth Shrine. The party of adventurers must now answer the call of Bensarian, who reveals them that Landryn is about to obtain the Blackstick and that he must be stopped at all costs. They head for the Geffron Forest, looking for Enoreth's tomb. They arrive too late and they must then follow the Lord's minions to Drax Tallen, where they battle Landryn face to face. At the end, they manage to kill him (sending his soul into his phylactery) and to destroy the Blackstick, and return to Wendar with the good news. Their leader dead, the army disband and Essuria is plunged once again into political chaos. (These events are played out in the second part of the module X11 Saga of the Shadow Lord.) AC 940 The High Priest of Idris finds Landryn's phylactery (the device where his life force is stored) and has him return into this world by possessing a nearby corpse. He falls then under the High Priest's direct control, for he holds the source of Landryn's powers, and he begins to use his undead servant to further Idris' plans. Landryn resents being controlled and starts to scheme in order to regain his freedom and to attain full lichdom. AC 951 Through continued use of the Elvenstar Gylharen notices certain changes occurring to himself. AC 966 Gylharen is completely turned into an elf. AC 970 Wendar opens diplomatic ties with Glantri. AC 980 Landryn discovers the existence of the Black Staff of the Carnifex by examining ancient scrolls and a strange Davanian monolith, and he begins to devise a plan to conquer Wendar and the whole Known World by turning its population into undead. He begins to submit to his will many humanoid tribes and human settlements with the aid of the Church of Idris, and swiftly raises to prominence under the name of Shadow Lord. AC 982 Wendar opens diplomatic ties with Alfheim, Darokin and Norwold. AC 989 Wendar opens diplomatic ties with the Heldannic Territories and Sind. AC 1005 Start of the four year period known as the Wrath of the Immortals. Wendar remains neutral but open to any refugees, who in fact arrive when Alfheim is conquered by the Shadow Elves. (WotI) AC 1008 Four Alfheim clans arrive in Wendar, (unknowingly bringing the plague they contracted while crossing Ethengar and Glantri) and are immediately welcomed by the population, who tries to help them the best it can. The clans are the Erendyl, Mealidil, Grunalf and Long Runner, and among them is the former King of Alfheim, Doriath Erendyl. (WotI) AC 1010 With the help of the Elvenstar, the elves manage to stop the plague from claiming other lives and the order is once again restored in Wendar. AC 1013 An elf announces the discovery of a type of tree bearing magically healing fruit deep within Wendar's forests. The announcement sparks a rush of treasure-seekers into the wilderness. Relations become strained between Wendarians and Alfheim refugees. (JA) AC 1014 Landryn believes that he has deduced the location of the Guardian Mesa where the Black Staff is hidden. He decides to set out personally with an entourage of highly trained mercenaries to retrieve the Black Staff. Elvenstar note The Elvenstar has a relatively unknown side effect that occurs when it is first used but only by non elf users. When a non elf user first uses the Elvenstar it starts to encode an alternate elven biology for that person the age of which is based on this first use. Through long continued use of the Elvenstar this process ends in the user being turned into an elf who was, for all intense purposes, was born in the year detailed by the process below. So far Gylharen is the only non-elf who has used for Elvenstar for any significant period of time to come under this effect. Bensarian did not have much need to use the Elvenstar when it was his and before this only elves had access to it. Assume Gylharen was born human. Assume Gylharen first used the Elvenstar in his 18 th year. Assume humans live to be 60 years old. Therefore Gylharen was 18/60 th of the way through his life. Assume that this year was AC 889, therefore c. AC 900. Therefore Gylharen was born in AC 871. Assume elves live to be 700 years old. Therefore in elf terms when Gylharen first used the Elvenstar he was 18/60 * 700 the way through an elf life. This number ends up being 210. Therefore 210 years before AC 889 is 679. Alternative restaging for X11 in modern days AC 990 Landryn sends another spy to Wendar with the aim to steal the Elvenstar again, while he keeps searching for the exact location of the Black Staff. AC 1000 The spy manages to steal the Elvenstar and brings it to Geron, where some minions of the Shadow Lord take it to Gereth Minar. Then Landryn casts a powerful curse on Wendar, which is therefore stricken with plague and famine, while in the meantime hordes of humans and humanoids push near the northern border to invade the kingdom. Gylharen asks for help to his allies, the surrounding nations, while organising a desperate defence force against the incoming invasion. AC 1002 Landryn starts the invasion of Wendar, the first step in his masterplan. Joint Glantrian and Darokinian efforts lead to the recruitment of a band of adventurers who are immediately dispatched to Wendar, in order to help the Wizard King. They are able to locate the Elvenstar and to delay a bit the invading force, but in the final confrontation against the Shadow Lord to retrieve the Elvenstar they fail miserably and are forced to flee. AC 1003 The forces of the Shadow Lord invade Wendar and conquer the eastern half. Gylharen and the resistant forces retreat back to Oakwall and Woodgate, forming a fortified defensive line between these two major settlements, while the forces of evil roam across eastern Wendar. Another group of adventurers arrives in Wendar to defeat the evil invaders and retraces the first party's trail to Gereth Minar, where they take advantage of the Shadow Lord's absence to infiltrate the tower and retrieve the Elvenstar. AC 1004 With the adventurers' assistance, Gylharen is able to regain the lost territory and to restore peace and order inside his kingdom. If Landryn dies at the end of the adventure, then the following applies: AC 1011 A party of adventurers from the Heldannic Territories stumbles across the ruins of Drax Tallen and enters the deep underground levels. There, one of them falls victim to a deadly trap not triggered during the last battle and dies: Landryn immediately takes possession of his body and after slaying the other adventurers, continues with his masterplan... Shawn Stanley, Marco Dalmonte Department of Geology, Department of Communications Science Australian National University. University of Bologna, Italy (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it) (www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:16:41 +0000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Timeline for the Wendar-Denagoth Region (AC 773 - AC 909) essage-Id: AC 773 Landru calls upon the army to conquer the now thriving town of Wendar and the surrounding region, and thanks to the humanoids' help and the elves' temporary weakness he manages to get past the Mengul Mountains. Unfortunately, the humanoids disband just past the mountains and scatter to the four winds to raid the countryside without an organised strategy, so Landru and his army are defeated by the elves and the humans. The elven leader of the Defenders of Genalleth, Sylidair, personally kills the Essurian King during the final battle. AC 774 Landru's brother, Beldan, ascends to the throne. The first thing he does is to abolish the Unhuman Treaty, and then he begins a personal crusade against orcs, ogres and other humanoids to avenge his brother's death (which he blames on them). He doesn't listen to the whispered promises and lies of the Idris' priests and ignores their advice on the humanoid affair: he is now on a personal quest for revenge. He also wants a scapegoat to explain the Essurian leaders' incapacity to conquer Genalleth and to unite the population. AC 778 The High Priest of Idris, displeased with Beldan's actions, warns him of his misdeeds: the King merely laughs at such words and continues in his crusade, backed up by most of the population and much to the elves' joy. The High Priest then begins to spin a web of political intrigues and bribery to cause the king's downfall. AC 783 Start of a five year period known as the Time of Terror. Beldan escapes some assassination attempts but is unable to find the real culprits. The King becomes more and more paranoid as the years follow and the assassination attempts increase, until he begins to put to death every single person that is in any way related to his would-be assassins. Common citizens and cleanleaders alike fall victims to Beldan's obsession and the population begins to despise its ruler: the High Priest remains untouched by the King's Purge, but some minor Idris priests do not. AC 788 Beldan is suddenly attacked by an angry mob while travelling through the streets of Drax Tallen and he's literally torn to pieces under the eyes of his guards, who don't move a single finger to help him. AC 789 The High Priest and the various clanleaders agree to elect Naren, a lesser member of Essur clan, as the new King of Essuria. He is nothing more than a puppet controlled by the High Priest and some of the most powerful clanleaders, but he doesn't realise it. The crusade against the humanoids is declared finished by the King and peaceful trading and diplomatic relationships are established between Essuria and Wendar: this is part of the High Priest's plan to infiltrate Idris' followers into Wendar, in order to spread there the cult. The High Priest begins also to regain the humanoids' trust and alliance with various subtle manipulations and royal decrees. AC 793 Halvan, Naren's brother, begins his studies of magical arts under Bensarian's guidance. AC 803 Halvan returns of Essuria with a dream of building Drax Tallen into a wondrous capital. Under Halvan's supervision, construction of the Kings' Mausoleum in Drax Tallen begins. AC 804 Halvan discovers the Blackstick in Nebunar's tomb and begins to study it. AC 808 Naren dies in his sleep and his brother Halvan is crowned king. The construction of the Mausoleum is completed. AC 809 After much deliberation Halvan decides to give the Blackstick to Bensarian for safekeeping. AC 813 Bensarian finishes his long quest to find the truth about the elven history and gives the Elven Chronicles he wrote to the Geffronell and Genalleth elves, as a longstanding sign of their mutual friendship. He is now commonly renowned as Friend and Hero among the elven settlements in Denagoth and modern Wendar. AC 818 Bensarian gives the Blackstick to the Geffronell elves to prevent its abuse and they give the Elvenstar to him in return, according to the omen received by the Korrigans. Sylidair, leader of the group of elves known as the Defenders of Genalleth, dies. AC 843 Under Halvan's rule Essuria thrives, but when he unfolds some dark secrets about Idris and its High Priest, Halvan suddenly dies during his sleep, like his brother about 30 years before. His son Gallathon is crowned eleventh King of Essuria. AC 848 Gallathon begins to establish numerous diplomatic and trading ties with the surrounding nations and populations, and this brings much wealth to the royal vault of Essuria. Idris cult also spreads to the surrounding regions, even though it often remains a hidden, underground faith. The Church of Idris begins to spread strange rumours about the Geffronell elves and their "gruesome" ritual practices. The High Priest of Idris has decided to find a new scapegoat to blame for Essuria's troubles and the past defeats, and it's obviously the elven race. Idris' priests start preaching a policy of mistrust and xenophobia against the Geffron and Lothenar elves, and then against the elven race as a whole. AC 858 As a result of the Idris' priests preachings, the Essurians and most of the Denagothians harbour now an open hatred towards the elves, who are seen as responsible for their sufferings and the military failures of Essuria, as well as dedicated to dark magics and horrible cannibalistic rituals. Relations between Wendar and Essuria becomes strained and some humans living in the Valley of Genalleth begin to listen to the words of Idris. AC 864 Minor skirmishes take place in Genalleth between human villages and elven strongholds: the plan of Idris' High Priest is by now fully into motion. He wants all the humans living in Denagoth and Genalleth side with his faith against the elves, so that Essuria can conquer the whole region in the name of Idris. AC 868 Gallathon dies, his son Mirimar gains to the throne. AC 876 Start of a five year period known as the Years of Disgrace. Denagothian tribes invade Essuria and raid its northern provinces. Gereth Minar falls to its attackers and every effort to retake it is vain. The Avien Tribes take advantage of the situation to rebel against Essuria, and drive out their plains the Essurian governors along with their soldiers. After five years of war and a disastrous military campaign, due in part to the incapacity of Mirimar (who is a scholar and not a trained soldier) and to the corruption that has spread through the Essurian political and military structure during Gallathon's and Mirimar's rule, Mirimar is forced to accept the independence of the Avien Tribes and to sign a nefarious peace treaty that gives away to the Denagothians the northern half of the kingdom. This event is a major setback for the High Priest's plan of marching again against the elves of Geffron and Genalleth. He decides to wait before taking any serious step to conquer Genalleth and retake the northwestern lands and in the meantime launches a propaganda to make the people believe that the Years of Disgrace have been caused by the elves. AC 888 Mirimar dies and his son Vespen becomes the new king, but he proves no more capable and no less corrupt and lazy than the two preceding kings. AC 889 Gylharen is born, a human, in the town of Wendar. AC 890 Landryn travels from his home in his youth at the behest of his brother Vespen. Whilst travelling Landryn comes across the Hattains Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:47:55 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #77 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7e350939526e88b3bfeabcc584720d83 there he stays with them for a while picking up their culture. AC 898 Vespen dies poisoned by his own brother, Landryn the necromancer, who immediately seizes the throne and establishes a personal dictatorship. With the help of Idris' High Priest, he is able to persuade the other clanleaders to swear obedience to him, and then schemes to regain the lost territories and to conquer the land of Genalleth. AC 901 Landryn reshapes the Essurian Army to eliminate the corrupt and inept officers. He creates inside the army a special body of elite soldiers trained and taught by the Church of Idris whose purpose is to keep an eye on the other soldiers and officers and to spread the national anti-elvish ideology. This force is called Special Security Squadron (SSS). AC 903 By this time, Landryn has eliminated all the opposers to his regime and he's backed up by the Church of Idris as well as the whole army and its officers: the Essurians hail him as "Ozerferher" Teriak (Divine Leader Teriak). AC 904 Listening to the High Priest's advice, Landryn creates a secret unit of loyal humanoids dedicated to the extermination of the elven race and trains them in hidden facilities inside Essuria. These soldiers, the Elf Skull Unit, begin then to stage raids into the Geffronells territory to capture elves and to extort them information about their military tactics and their defenses; usually these raids turn out to be nothing more than ruthless massacres. AC 906 Gylharen a very charismatic person who has already started to prove himself as an adventurer even at this young age, starts again the dream of the Wendarian League. He notices that the relationship between humans and elves have become tense in the last years due to the Idris cult influence, and he starts diplomatic missions to restore peace between the two races living in the valley. AC 907 Landryn invites the major Denagothian warleaders to Drax Tallen pretending to sign another peace treaty, but he soon shows his real intentions by slaughtering them with a treacherous assault. Then he launches an all-out assault against the Denagoth tribes and prepares to invade Wendar at the same time, rallying troops of humanoids to power up its army. This is the beginning of Landryn's long prepared military campaign to swiftly conquer the neighbouring lands: the Blitzkrieg has started. Bensarian, who has foreseen what will happen, bestows upon Gylharen the Elvenstar, in order to protect Wendar from the armies of Essuria. Gylharen uses the Elvenstar for the first time and although there are no obvious effects at this time he starts the process of becoming an elf. When the hordes of humanoids and Essurians attacks Wendar, Gylharen is then able to repel them and to protect his territory, forcing the invading army to retreat and then to flee back to Essuria, where king Landryn desperately needs it to contrast the Denagothian invasion forces. AC 908 The Denagoth Tribes unite under a mysterious leader who claims to be Henadin, the ancient warlord returned from the dead to obtain vengeance against Essuria, and repel the Essurian troops, invading the kingdom in retaliation. The ESU controls by now the whole southeastern part of the Geffron Forest and the Essurian Army is ready to counter attack the forces of the Wendarian League, but the situation on the northern border convinces Landryn to call back both armies to contrast the Denagothian invasion forces. AC 909 The Essurian Army is soundly defeated by the Denagothians particularly due to the fact that the Avien Tribes join Henadin's forces and attack the Essurians from the rear. Drax Tallen falls after months of siege laid by Henadin and his troops, and the High Priest of Idris is killed by Henadin, whereas Landryn flees across the Geffron Forest to the Plains of Avien, pursued by one of the golden dragons who accompanied Henadin. When the great wyrm finally catches him, it breathes its poisonous gas on the wizard and then leaves, letting the charred remains of the former king to decay under the sun. After some months, an itinerant priest finds Landryn's corpse and Raise him, thinking he was victim of an evil dragon. Soon after being resurrected, Landryn thanks his saviour by casting on him a Magic Jar, and once inside his healthy body he slays the poor fellow, who curses him upon his death; then Landryn flees east into the Lothenar Forest. After raiding and razing throughout Essuria, some of the Denagothians head north, while others remain in the region: as for Henadin, he disappears mysteriously shortly after the fall of Drax Tallen. Shawn Stanley, Marco Dalmonte Department of Geology, Department of Communications Science Australian National University. University of Bologna, Italy (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it) (www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:16:21 +0000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Timeline for the Wendar-Denagoth Region (BC 1700 - AC 772) essage-Id: BC 1700 The elves of Glantri discover, in the area that will be later known as the Broken Lands, a strange artifact from the lost Blackmoor civilisation. They tinker with it, and the artifact explodes cataclysmically, sending impenetrable clouds into the sky, and spreading a strange rotting plague among the surviving elves. The elves shelter themselves in the deepest caves, finding an incredible series of caverns and beginning a years long migration. Some emerge in the Five Shires (the Gentle Folk), some arrive in the Hollow World (Icevale elves), some perish.(HW) Again a nuclear winter scenario exists, this time over much of Glantri and areas immediately surrounding it. Glacial activity is increased or initiated in the mountains in the area affected. In Genalleth the temperature decreases. As a consequence of the humanoid invasion and the Broken Lands catastrophe, the Kingdom of Denagoth collapses when the last of the Denagoth Kings dies without heirs, and the warleaders struggle among themselves to gain power. Despite the end of the large Denagothian tribe the fact that their language has become pervasive throughout the area and the sense of racial unity that the Neathar-Beastmen crossbreeds have they still think of themselves as Denagothians and the entire plateau on which they live Denagoth - although they still enjoy warring amongst each other and now against the Antalian tribes that have joined them on the plateau. Due to the Broken Lands catastrophe, a great area of the Geffron Forest is turned into a vast plain, when trees wither and die because of the radioactive rains; the area will then become known as the Avien Plains. In Genalleth and on the Denagothian plateau, many elves and humans contract a strange disease that afflicts their minds as well as their bodies, draining physical strength and memories at a very fast rate. Fortunately, thanks to the help of the Geffronell elves, who use the Elvenstar to cure the disease, the three elven groups don't suffer too much casualties. Unfortunately, because of the radioactive disease they contracted, the elves have lost their earlier memories and even though the effect has been stopped thanks to the Elvenstar, they have forgotten the name of their former leader (Genalleth) and their ancestry (their memories date back to BC 1900). They only know that they now live in Brun, that their leader is Enoreth and that they have named their land Genalleth, but they don't remember anything more about the past 500 years. (This way, the name of the leader of the second expedition from Grunland was forgotten.) The Korrigans, creators of the Elvenstar, become known and worshipped by elves of the Enoreth migration as well, becoming the Immortal patrons of all the elves of the region. BC 1690 Leaders from the now disunited Denagoth clans declare a truce and petition the Lothenar and Geffronell elves for help to fight the rotting disease that is now decimating their tribes. After much negotiating especially by Enoreth, the elves agree to use the Elvenstar to help the Denagothians, who in return swear not to invade the southern part of the plateau. BC 1688 Enoreth dies of old age and is buried in a sacred tomb, Enoreth Shrine, in the Great Forest of Geffron, near the southern border of the plateau. Unable to find a charismatic figure to lead their clans, the elves agree to choose separately their own leaders and to let their "kingdom" fall; they remain in friendly terms with each other, anyway. BC 1680 After Enoreth's death, relations between the elves and Denagothians become strained. BC 1000 The humans of the Northern Reaches area are conquered and enslaved by the Nithian Empire. (HW) Some human tribes attempting to avoid their fate migrate northward and westward: eventually, some of them cross the Mengul Mountains and reach Genalleth, where they settle. The Nithian Empire not liking the colder climates does not extend their grasp to these regions. BC 900 The humans of Genalleth establish relationships with the Genalleth elves and gradually they become friends; intermarriages occur a few decades after, sanctioning the peaceful attitude of both races. BC 500 The Nithian Empire, having incurred Immortal dislike, abruptly ends: the Immortals use magic to ensure that almost all trace of the Empire is wiped from the face of Mystara, including the Antalians of Genalleth. (HW modified) AC 0 General Zendrolion Tatriokanitas assassinates King Lucinius and declares himself Emperor of Thyatis. (HW) In the years since the fall of the self styled Denagoth Kingdom many tribes have risen and fallen in prominence amongst the Denagothians although nothing of consequence was borne out by any such minor kingdom. During this time Denagothians have spread throughout much of the Mengul Mountains and to those areas immediately surrounding the mountains. Also, with the passing of centuries, the Denagothians have forgotten what the Geffronell elves have done for them after the Broken Lands catastrophe, and they are making more and more raids into their forest, earning their enmity and distrust. AC 100 Wendar, son of an elven adventurer and a human female with elven heritage, is born in Genalleth in the village of Gethenar. He astounds the chirurgeon of the village in that he is not still born as has been the norm with such births. AC 117 Wendar, who has been adventuring since a young age manages to kill an huge green dragon in her lair that has been terrorising the area for some time. Wendar is lucky in this encounter in that the dragon was recovering from a disagreement with another dragon. Despite this the battle was tough. AC 120 Wendar and a group of local adventurers take it upon themselves to patrol their homeland area and protect it from monsters. AC 122 Adventurers from Sylvair join with Wendar and his group and expand their area of surveillance around Gyldor. AC 125 People from surrounding villages also join up to the scheme set up by Wendar. People start referring to them as the Wendarian League. AC 162 Wendar dies. AC 163 The village of Gethenar changes its name to Wendar in honour of what Wendar did for the people of the area. AC 210 Sylidair, an elf, is born from elven parents in the town of Gyldor. AC 250 Although the Wendarian League has still been active since Wendars' passing it has started to decline in numbers. AC 400 By this time the Wendarian League has broken apart as separate villages start to look after their own security. AC 533 Nebunar is born in a Neathar-Beastman (Denagothian) tribe, the Essur, in the tundra plains on the northern parts of the plateau, he's the only child of the Essurs' chieftain. AC 563 Nebunar leads his clan (the Essur) southward, conquering and enslaving the human tribes he finds along his path, until he reaches the Great Forest of Geffron. There, after destroying a few elven settlements, he builds Drax Tallen and declares himself King of Essuria: his kingdom encompasses the whole south-eastern tip of the Denagoth Plateau. Nebunar does not venture too far into the elves territory. AC 568 Idris cult begins to spread throughout Essuria and Denagoth. Nebunar who is a follower of Idris allows this to occur although he decides not to take an active part in the process - instead he does nothing to stop it, and this cult attracts many other followers among Nebunar's entourage as well. AC 593 Nebunar acquires the Blackstick thanks to the help of Idris' High Priest and begins his studies to acquire the full mastery of its powers. AC 595 Nebunar dies and the Blackstick is entombed with him; his son Dallovan succeeds him on Essuria's throne. AC 613 Essuria expands its borders conquering the tribes that live in the region now called the Plains of Avien: the westernmost border is now the Lothenar Forest (not included). AC 628 Dallovan dies after 30 years of strong and fair rulership: his son Naga ascends to the throne. AC 648 Naga tries to conquer the town of Wendar and the neighbouring elven communities and marches south. After some minor victories, his armies are defeated by the joint forces of elves and humans, on the shores of the river later to be known as Naga River, where the Essurian King meets his demise. There is talk of restarting the Wendarian League at this time but petty rulers from some of the towns make sure that the idea does not come to fruition - they fear to lose the control they have over their villages. AC 648 Start of a civil war in Essuria that lasts ten years. A bitter feudal war erupts in Essuria among the various clan leaders at the death of Naga, plunging the realm into one of its darkest periods. At the end of the war Naga's cousin, Ranyn (member of the Essur clan) rises to power after obtaining the loyalty of many clanleaders and slaughtering all the others who refused to acknowledge him as the rightful heir to the throne. In the meantime, many of the subjected tribes manage to break free from Essuria's yoke and become independent once again: Essuria loses control over the Plains of Avien. Ranyn is crowned fourth King of Essuria. AC 668 Ranyn manages to again conquer the Avien tribes. AC 678 Ranyn establishes a small keep a few miles north-east of Naga River to guard the southern access to Essuria, the village of Geron is built. AC 688 Ranyn dies: his son Gereth ascends to the throne. In Genalleth, Sylidair decides to create a special unit of loyal elves to defend his homeland from the menacing Essurian forces that have begun to occasionally raid the forest from the town of Geron. He bands up with some friends and creates the Defenders of Genalleth, an unofficial squad composed of elves only; then they begin to patrol the forest and the countryside and their numbers rise in the following years. AC 698 Start of the twenty year period known as the Great War. A warlord from the tribe of Den named Henadin unites the northern tribes and marches south to conquer Essuria and re-establish the once powerful Kingdom of Denagoth. The war ravages across the plateau for twenty years, during which famine, massacres and diseases claim nearly half of the entire Essurian population. In a desperate effort to resist Henadin's powerful army, Gereth uses Idris' priests to rally humanoid tribes into his army: the backup forces of orcs, hobgoblins and gnolls that join the Essurian army prove vital to the campaign. At the end of the war Henadin is killed and his disbanded armies retreat northward. Gereth builds a great tower along the northern border of Essuria as a strategic military keep to control the northern tribes' movements, he names the tower after himself. AC 724 Bensarian is born from human parents in the small hamlet of Kevar. AC 726 Bensarian's family is killed during an orcish raid. An elf passing nearby discovers the little Bensarian under the charred ruins of his house and decides to bring the baby back with him to his clan stronghold. Bensarian is thus adopted by the clan of elves and grows up adopting their customs and learning their traditions. AC 733 Gereth dies during a raid in the Plains of Avien to repress a minor unrest among those tribes: his son Minar ascends to the throne. AC 738 A few Denagothian clans unite again and raid the northern provinces of Essuria, destroying the Tower of Gereth after a long siege. Essuria's army counterattacks and repels the invaders, re-establishing the former northern border. Minar rebuilds his father's tower and renames it Gereth-Minar. AC 748 Minar tries to invade the Wendar region, but like his predecessor Naga he is promptly repelled by the joint forces of Genalleth and Geffronell elves and the humans living in Genalleth. The elves in particular use their better knowledge of the area and their superior magics to best the Essurian warbands and to affirm their predominance in this part of the region. AC 753 Bensarian, now a wise man, starts to travel throughout Genalleth and then up in the Great Forest of Geffron, learning the customs and history of the elves living in the region and befriending every single clan. AC 758 Minar dies, his son Landru ascends to the throne. AC 763 Bensarian has discovered a big hole in the history of the elves living in the area and he offers them his help to discover their real roots and the secrets of their ancestors. The elves are positively surprised by the dedication and the friendship showed by the sage, and knowing this will not be an easy nor short task, they offer him to extend his lifespan in exchange. AC 768 The Unhuman Treaty. Landru signs a treaty with the humanoid population living in Essuria and in the surrounding mountains that gives them the right to raid and sack the elven settlements in Lothenar and Geffron Forest, as well as in Genalleth, in exchange for their help in case of war. Lothenar and Geffronell elves begin to suffer greatly from these vicious and malevolent humanoids in the following decades, while Landru is able to conquer a big part of their lands. The people (Denagothians) of Essuria do not know why Landru has done this as many distrust the humanoids. This is because over time the common Denagothian has forgotten their heritage from the Beastmen. Nebunar relearned this fact from Idris and since then it has been a well guarded secret amongst the rulers of Essuria. Landru signs this treaty as much for aid in time of war as out of kinship with the humanoids. Shawn Stanley, Marco Dalmonte Department of Geology, Department of Communications Science Australian National University. University of Bologna, Italy (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it) (www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #77 **************************** Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:25:27 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #78 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 8f90228b84d5b8c9c1bf5dbc0bdbcbcc Status: RO mystara-digest Wednesday, May 14 1997 Volume 02 : Number 078 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:32:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Theme revisited On Sun, 11 May 1997, Patrick wrote: >>I don't know that I would call Thincol (if that's who you mean) a "good guy" or a "bad guy." There are things he does that I think are good, and others not. Having thoroughly evil and despicable villains that we love tto >>hate is important, and Mystara does have plenty of them, but what makes Mystara particularly special, IMO and as mentioned by others too, is the great number of characters who are not clearly good or bad, but have complex histories and characters such that they elude such binary terminology. It takes many of the stereotypes of villainy or goodness aand >>lends them an extra dimension of complexity, making it more difficult to take sides. A prime example is the somewhat misunderstood Shadowelves, vvs. >>drow in other gameworlds. Rad is certainly noble in his thoughts but rather undisturbed by the harm he causes (until nuking Sundsvall, of course). The humanoids of Thar are given are not thoroughly evil in the trivial sense, but have a history and set of circumstances that make it possible to sympathize with them. Etc. >I think he meant Eusebius, probably. However, I completely agree with this. The people of Mystara are real people, with complex personalities. Even those who are evil have personalities and histories that justify this. II have studied a small amount of psychology, and the characters of Mystara make are much deeper and more realistic than those of many other fantasy worlds. This is, IMHO, one of the greatest things about Mystara. Perhaps the terms badguys and goodguys were poorly chosen. What I meant was rather, people we can sympathise with and people we can hate. It doesn't mean that they have to be good as Paladins or rightout evil. As a matter of fact I removed the aligmnent rules from my campaign to avoid creating steriotypes. But even with realistic characters it is poessible to give a feeling of some being good guys and some being evil. Even if those "good"guys have certain bad characteristics. One such example is Paul Atreides from Frank Herbert's Dune. While most readers would consider him a good guy, he caused the Jihad that led to the death of billions of people (I could add innocent). Most of the other characters in those books also move between being good guys and bad guys. What I think is most important is that we feel that these characters are real and that we care about what happens to them :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:40:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures On Sun, 11 May 1997, Peter Balazs wrote: (someone writes:) >>I can't really explain it right now (maybe when I get it organized myself) but I have some connection with Immortal names and the old ones. I also have some connection between Immortals and dieties with the same name of other campaign worlds. It's really confusing - even to me...I might try to write it out some time. >That´s exactly the same with my campaign, I have also been trying to match AD&D Dieties and RW Gods with Mystara Immortals. It´s hard! In my campaign the AD&D worlds are in another dimension. As is probably our earth. Nothing of this has much to do with my campaign really. But one option is: Gods and immortals with the same name are not the same. They are more like "dimensional dopplegangers." They seem very similar at first glance, but they are different entities (Not to be confused with Mystaros' Entities). Its like the twighlightzone. I think this should work, even if they all come from the Multiverse, just different planes. I figure that since many worlds have their montains and eartquakes etc, why shouldn't every world have their Odin? :) Just my thoughts. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:54:58 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Timeline for the Wendar-Denagoth Region >Shawn Stanley, Marco Dalmonte Great work, guys! There was some really cool stuff in your timeline, and the best thing is that most of it read as if it were "canon"! A definite addition to my campaign, I think. So how much of it was in X13 Saga of the Shadow Lord? I'm guessing only the bits which you noted from the adventure, but was there any back- story at all in it? BTW, do you plan to do any more work on Wendar in the near future? Going by the quality of your history I would really like to see a Wendar Gazetteer from you. :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:02:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortal Rules and Adventures In a message dated 97-05-13 11:56:42 EDT, Haavard write: << n my campaign the AD&D worlds are in another dimension. As is probably our earth. Nothing of this has much to do with my campaign really. But one option is: Gods and immortals with the same name are not the same. They are more like "dimensional dopplegangers." They seem very similar at first glance, but they are different entities >> Same here; I did not want to mix up the Multiverse with Planescape, so I kept them two totally differetn places. Actually, for those of you who read my Genesis article note that the AD&D Planescape Dimension is one of the Dimensions out beyond the Multiverse (which is, IMC, the Prime Dimension)... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:35:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hello? Hello? Is anyone out there? There seems to be little traffic on the list right now... save for the very interesting timeline of Wendar by Stan and Marco (which I am still consuming...). That's the kind of stuff I love to see! I was wondering if anyone had any comments on the posts about Arik or Set... Is the quietude the result of the end of school semesters? Or is it time for finals in other parts of the world? Here's an interesting question: What about the scholastic system in the Known World? We know about the Great School of Magic in Glantri and the Uppsala College at Norrvik, but has anyone else developed a university system in any other countries? What about exchanges? And is there a certain scholar of antiquities in a small Darokinian university by the name of Daro Smyth-Jones?... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:35:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hello? Hello? Is anyone out there? There seems to be little traffic on the list right now... save for the very interesting timeline of Wendar by Stan and Marco (which I am still consuming...). That's the kind of stuff I love to see! I was wondering if anyone had any comments on the posts about Arik or Set... Is the quietude the result of the end of school semesters? Or is it time for finals in other parts of the world? Here's an interesting question: What about the scholastic system in the Known World? We know about the Great School of Magic in Glantri and the Uppsala College at Norrvik, but has anyone else developed a university system in any other countries? What about exchanges? And is there a certain scholar of antiquities in a small Darokinian university by the name of Daro Smyth-Jones?... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:54:41 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] KKoA Question Ok. I know that TSR was trying to eliminate all potentially-offensive terms from its product lines. And when they came out with the AD&D Karameikos boxed set, they changed the name of "Hell's Jailors," the military division at Radlebb Keep, to "Baator's Jailors." Can anyone tell me where this term comes from? Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:51:13 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hello? >Hello? Is anyone out there? >There seems to be little traffic on the list right now... save for the very >interesting timeline of Wendar by Stan and Marco (which I am still consuming...). That's the kind of stuff I love to see! >I was wondering if anyone had any comments on the posts about Arik or Set... >Is the quietude the result of the end of school semesters? Or is it time for >finals in other parts of the world? I think you hit the nail on the head:) >Here's an interesting question: What about the scholastic system in the Known >World? We know about the Great School of Magic in Glantri and the Uppsala College at Norrvik, but has anyone else developed a university system in any >other countries? What about exchanges? And is there a certain scholar of antiquities in a small Darokinian university by the name of Daro Smyth-Jones?... >Mystaros Well, there's the Naval Acdemy in Ierendi, the Karameikan School of Magecraft, The University of the Desert Garden (or something) in Ylaruam, and the college at Aeria. IIRC, there is also a major military academy in Thyatis, and a university in Gargona on the Savage Coast. Oh, and don't forget Serraine; it's practically a giant flying school:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:25:12 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] The Mood Swings of the MML... >Hello? Is anyone out there? Definitely Out There. >There seems to be little traffic on the list right now... save for the very >interesting timeline of Wendar by Stan and Marco (which I am still consuming...). That's the kind of stuff I love to see! Same here. >Is the quietude the result of the end of school semesters? Or is it time for >finals in other parts of the world? One thing you learn with the Mystara Mailing List is that it is not consistant in its volume of output. At times the floodgates are opened, while later it could be a mere trickle. School schedules can play a part in this, but so can many other things. Sometimes all it takes is someone tossing out an interesting (or inflammatory) idea to get things rolling. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:47:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-14 02:41:14 EDT, you write: << Ok. I know that TSR was trying to eliminate all potentially-offensive terms from its product lines. And when they came out with the AD&D Karameikos boxed set, they changed the name of "Hell's Jailors," the military division at Radlebb Keep, to "Baator's Jailors." Can anyone tell me where this term comes from? Patrick >> "Baator" is the politically corrected version of "Devil", while "Tanar'ri" is the equivalent for "Demon". In D&D, they were simply known as "Fiends" post-Disneyfication )the process by which all things that could possibly be construed as "Evil" were purged from D&D and AD&D). I never noticed the change, but then again, I never went in depth into the Official AD&D changes for Mystara... and I never, ever brought in the Blood War or anything from Planescape... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:42:52 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Wendar timeline You wrote (actually u worshiped us :) ): <> We sure hit the nail then! As for the canon reference, it is now OUR (Shawn's and mine at least) canon as far as i'm concerned..:) Thanx :) <> Actually, there were some ref to the previous Essurian kings, particularly about the last 3 before Landryn Teriak, but nothing really definite, only vague hints. The rest of the timeline has been completely invented using official TSR stuff and trying to adjust every reference we had (and some were really difficult to insert, cause they were CONTRASTING! Particularly the life of Gylharen and the dates on the X11 staging... and you have to thank Shawn for the brilliant explanation of the reference to Gylharen's birthdate in the PWAs and the facts depicted in X11... again, great work Shawn!;) ) << BTW, do you plan to do any more work on Wendar in the near future? Going by the quality of your history I would really like to see a Wendar Gazetteer from you. :-) Thorf.>> As for the future plans about Wendar, you'll see some interesting news about the Alfheimers, the Shadowlord and Idris Church in the next PWA, and these will be major events in Wendar and Denagoth... It's all for now: keep on adding feedback, please... PS: thanx Thorf for the support and thanx Mystaros too! DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:54:39 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Universities Mystaros wrote: >Here's an interesting question: What about the scholastic system in the Known World? We know about the Great School of Magic in Glantri and the Uppsala College at Norrvik, but has anyone else developed a university system in any other countries? What about exchanges? And is there a certain scholar of antiquities in a small Darokinian university by the name of Daro SSmyth-Jones?... >Mystaros And Patrick wrote: >Well, there's the Naval Acdemy in Ierendi, the Karameikan School of Magecraft, The University of the Desert Garden (or something) in Ylaruam, and the college at Aeria. IIRC, there is also a major military academy in Thyatis, and a university in Gargona on the Savage Coast. Oh, and don't forget Serraine; it's practically a giant flying school:) >Patrick And i now write: There are many universities in the Known World, and IIRC they're all listed in one of the Trail Maps... i have a copy of the list somewhere, just let me dig it up... But i recall Thyatis has a magic university too, the Collegium Arcanium.. Also, there was another interesting list in the Trail Maps about the common and uncommon diseases of the known World... wonder if anyone recalls it.. DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:27:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Wed, 14 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-14 02:41:14 EDT, you write: ><< Ok. I know that TSR was trying to eliminate all potentially-offensive tterms from its product lines. And when they came out with the AD&D Karameikos boxed set, they changed the name of "Hell's Jailors," the military division at Radlebb Keep, to "Baator's Jailors." Can anyone tell me where this term comes from? >Patrick >> >"Baator" is the politically corrected version of "Devil", while "Tanar'ri" is the equivalent for "Demon". In D&D, they were simply known as "Fiends" post-Disneyfication )the process by which all things that could possibly be construed as "Evil" were purged from D&D and AD&D). I never noticed the change, but then again, I never went in depth into the Official AD&D changes for Mystara... and I never, ever brought in the Blood War or anything from >Planescape... >Mystaros Ulan Bator(Ulan means IRC city, as in Sayr Ulan) is the Capital of Mongolia. Could that be of any relevance? (probably not) Havard. - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:33:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Wendar timeline On Wed, 14 May 1997, DM wrote: >You wrote (actually u worshiped us :) ): ><There was some really cool stuff in your timeline, and the best thing is that most of it read as if it were "canon"! A definite addition to my campaign, I think.>> Let me Wayne you too: "Im not worthy! Im not worthy!" :) >We sure hit the nail then! As for the canon reference, it is now OUR (Shawn's and mine at least) canon as far as i'm concerned..:) Thanx :) mine too. ><< BTW, do you plan to do any more work on Wendar in the near future? Going by the quality of your history I would really like to see a Wendar Gazetteer from you. :-) >Thorf.>> >As for the future plans about Wendar, you'll see some interesting news about the Alfheimers, the Shadowlord and Idris Church in the next PWA, and these will be major events in Wendar and Denagoth... Any way I can help? Ive got lots of ideas and Thoughts on these areas, and would definately like to see a gaz here :) Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:46:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Theme revisited On Mon, 12 May 1997, Deathwatch wrote: >I like the world, because it has a lot of possibilities to add your own things next to the things already there, and there are a lot of nice locations for everything. >I just got one question, does someone have some self made adventures? I am interested in those, I want to see how others make them. Me too. My adventures are mostly plots and background material. The actual gaming involves a great deal of improvisation. More later if I find time. Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:59:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Mood Swings of the MML... >>There seems to be little traffic on the list right now... save for tthe very >>interesting timeline of Wendar by Stan and Marco (which I am still consuming...). That's the kind of stuff I love to see! Well, your best bet for now is to look at some of the Mystara web pages that have collected the 'best of the list' in some ways. You can see all the ideas people have come up with over the past year or two. >>Is the quietude the result of the end of school semesters? Or is it Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:25:27 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #78 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 8f90228b84d5b8c9c1bf5dbc0bdbcbcc Status: RO >time for >>finals in other parts of the world? >One thing you learn with the Mystara Mailing List is that it is not consistant in its volume of output. At times the floodgates are opened, while later it could be a mere trickle. School schedules can play a part in this, but so can many other things. Summer also seems to decrease the amount of posting. Some people have more time, but also people dissapear from the list whose only net access is via their university accounts. But, as with most mailing lists, it goes as Leroy says. If you personally have any topics/ideas to throw out their for us to listen to or discuss, feel free. Unless they've been discussed numerous times already (and perhaps even then) you're likely to create plenty of discussion. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:06:12 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question At 20:54 13-05-97 -0700, Patrick wrote: >Ok. I know that TSR was trying to eliminate all potentially-offensive terms from its product lines. And when they came out with the AD&D Karameikos boxed set, they changed the name of "Hell's Jailors," the military division at Radlebb Keep, to "Baator's Jailors." Can anyone tell me where this term comes from? >Patrick Maybe they just thought that hell was just to general, and they changed it to Baator (hehe...Baatezus would like that...NOT!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:22:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Universities In a message dated 97-05-14 09:52:51 EDT, you write: << There are many universities in the Known World, and IIRC they're all listed in one of the Trail Maps... i have a copy of the list somewhere, just let me dig it up... But i recall Thyatis has a magic university too, the Collegium Arcanium.. Also, there was another interesting list in the Trail Maps about the common and uncommon diseases of the known World... wonder if anyone recalls it.. DM >> Slap to my forehead /SMACK/... DOH! There it is right on my wall!!! Thanks DM... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:24:29 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-14 08:01:19 EDT, you write: << "Baator" is the politically corrected version of "Devil", while "Tanar'ri" is the equivalent for "Demon". In D&D, they were simply known as "Fiends" post-Disneyfication )the process by which all things that could possibly be construed as "Evil" were purged from D&D and AD&D). I never noticed the change, but then again, I never went in depth into the Official AD&D changes for Mystara... and I never, ever brought in the Blood War or anything from Planescape... >> Close Mystaros, but no banana. Devils, Demons, Daemons, and Demodands are now collectively referred to as fiends. Devils are now known as the Baatezu (Bay-ah-teh-zu), the plane on which they reside (formally the Nine Hells) is Baator (Bay-ah-tor). Demons are the Tanar'ri (you got that one). The AD&D Tanar'ri are the closest equivalent to the D&D fiends. Daemons are the Yugoloths, and Demodands are now known as Gehereleths. FYI, "Angels" are collectively known as celestials. Not much else in name changing here, although there are several new celestial races. IMC, Hell's Jailors are still known by that name as the plane of Baator is unknown to Mystaran planewalkers. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:14:00 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara Novels >Dungeons and Dragons Books: >The Penhaligon Trilogy (by D.J. Heinrich) TThe Tainted Sword >The Dragon's Tomb >The Fall of Magic >AD&D Mystara Books: >Dragonlord Chronicles (by Thorarinn Gunnarsson) DDragonlord of Mystara >Dragonking of Mystara >Dragonmage of Mystara >The Black Vessel (by Morris Simon) (Savage Coast) Dark Knight of Karameikos (by Timothy Brown) >First Quest Books (Young Adult Fantasy) SSon of Dawn (by Dixie McKeone) There are at least 2 or 3 more Mystara books in this series. Son of Dawn was part of the "Quest Triad" I believe, and there may have been an additional Mystara one. There aren't many more First Quest books than these, so let's just say your best bet is to buy all of them unless you find out specifically that it's *not* on Mystara. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:29:24 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... >Here's another Question: IF Mystara were bought by another game company (other than WotC), which company would you like to see buy it and why? Which other system would you like to see used for Mystara and why? With WotC buyin TSR, it is not impossible that another company could buy Mystara and republish it using another game system (mere speculation mind you). What would be your preferences? Well I've heard Chivalry & Sorcery is even better than Dangerous Journeys (which is a masterpiece from what I've seen), so that's what I'd like... unless Gary Gygax and some company buy back Dangerous Journeys. Then I think it would only work for Mystara if a revision was made, since it's massive and encyclopedic to the point of intimidating even some experienced ropleplayers, and hindering playability. I've heard all you need to play DJ is in the first 30 pages, which contain all the best rpg ideas. Maybe if they used this to make a rulebook or two, and then made sourcebooks for all non-essential material, it would be a perfect game. Then I think it would be a good enough system for Mystara. :) That would be cool if it happened, because it would be like the best, original world in the best, most advanced system. Oh well. Not like that's going to happen, but it's nice to imagine such things. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:23:21 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... At 05:18 PM 4/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-30 13:41:47 EDT, you write: ><< All things considered at this point in time, I seriously doubt WotC wwould even consider selling or licensing out any of TSR's old worlds. If their revival were remotely possible, I think they would rather handle them thelmselves -- but again -- this is just my take on the current situation. >As I mentioned, it was simply for the sake of "What If?". But what I'm getting from your post, and knowing WotC as well as I know WotC, I get the feeling that with this purchase WotC is giving up all pretense of being a part of the "Adventure Gaming Industry". A darned shame, as they had so much promise in the past, and they had such high expectations for cooperation with other companies, and such great hopes for the growth of theindustry as a whole. This turn around doesn't come as a surprise at all; the same thing happens to all companies who get to big for their britches. It's just a shame that WotC seems hell-bent on bringing the rest of the industry down for the sake of their own profitability... they seem to have forgotten that they too were once one of the small guys. "Adventure gaming industry" Ha ha ha! I recall reading about that quote, which IIRC called D&D not an rpg, but an "adventure game" Yeah, we don't roleplay (or board games/card games/whatever "lesser" games that TSR also made) we play Zork! Yet another CEO full of hot air. And I thought Magic was greatly inspired by D&D (but I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't even know that.) Anyway, what's all this about? I heard WoTC was buying TSR, but not that they've done anything bad. Is it one of these "corporate takeover" things or what? >Basically, I feel that Mystara doesn't really have a chance as a line at a major company, as TSR's experience has proven. Nothing against the designers in the least; what I mean is, Mystara's potential as a line doesn't meet the various levels of returns that a major company would regard as necessary for profitability. But it would work out fine for a small company, something in the secondary or tertiary level of the industry (for example FASA, ICE and Chaosium are secondary level, while Kenzer, Shadis, and Hog's Head are tertiary level). In other words, Mystara would be great at a certain level of production, but definitely not at the mass market level... and if WotC won't be willing to sell of the rights or license it out, I don't think Mystara will EVER see the light of day again, much like Greyhawk... It's sad, but you may be right. Still, if someone new to Mystara brought it back, it probably wouldn't be the same... as you say, rpgs are an "industry" now. I've never heard of *anything* working on such a large scale without dire problems. I just loved the old stuff and their style, like the gaz's and the old modules. At least we still have that, and the list. Also the hope that Bruce has given us by hopefully convinving the people at WoTC about it later. Maybe it's not so bad after all. :) >I fear for the industry as a whole more now than I did ever before. I guess I was just fooling myself. I realized but did not understand that WotC has gone wholly corporate (which is perfectly within their rights, of course). But by doing so they may very well doom the industry that spawned them (ESPECIALLY if they go direct, like TSR was planning on doing). So do I. I guess creativity of any kind and business are two very different things that eventually conflict. Not that I'm insulting artists, but the people, no, the entire *system* that centralizes and uses them for other purposes. Maybe that will doom the industry, but if it declines, rpgs will rise again because they rule. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:27:21 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Wed, 14 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >IMC, Hell's Jailors are still known by that name as the plane of Baator is unknown to Mystaran planewalkers. Wouldn't "Pyt's Jailors" be a bit more appropriate? :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:03:28 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) At 10:44 AM 5/9/97 +0100, you wrote: >At 04.52 08/05/97 -0700, you wrote: >>On Thu, 8 May 1997, DM wrote: >>>there will always be another reality (NOT dimension) where those >> cchange didn't occur... and what will be the repercussions of this reality oooon the "official" Mystara reality?? >>That's if you buy into the "parallel universe" theory, which I personally don't. (How's that for getting out of an argument? ;) >Well, i was referring to canon (AD&D Chronomancer supplement.. a well done book, but leaves open too much questions IMO). Anyway, i accept your answer as a wise option to avoi long and painstaking arguments... I'll try to remember it next time..:) Maybe, but I wonder how many people actually consider **AD&D* *Chronomancer** as Mystara canon! :) P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:38:56 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question >>IMC, Hell's Jailors are still known by that name as the plane of Baator is >>unknown to Mystaran planewalkers. >Wouldn't "Pyt's Jailors" be a bit more appropriate? :) That's actually exactly what I am going to call them:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:10:27 +0600 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hello? At 11:35 PM 5/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hello? Is anyone out there? >There seems to be little traffic on the list right now... save for the very interesting timeline of Wendar by Stan and Marco (which I am still consuming...). That's the kind of stuff I love to see! well, I'm here, but not for long. I graduated on Saturday, and I'm about to move out on my own. Got a job with the U.S. Gov't in Washington, D.C. Until I get a new email account, I'm afraid I'll be away from the list. In case I don't make it back, it's been nice chattin' with all you guys (and girls too). Thanx for lettin' me be a part of something like this. Be seeing you all around... Aron Reif areif@vt.edu (although not much longer) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:29:37 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: [Mystara] stuff & Wendar I just wanted to say, I've really liked all the projects that have been posted to the list recently. It seems like "the floodgates have been opened." I was meaning to comment on the Kogolor Dwarves, Western Karameikos, the Sand Folk and Wendar Timeline, but a while ago all my Mystara messages mysteriously disappeared, and Mystaros is right about that end of school thing. It seems like for some people, the more projects we work on, maybe we read them and discuss stuff less, and perhaps the more we discuss the less projects we do, trying to keep up with the various threads. I guess I like actual info a lot, but that only starts with discussions, so it's some weird paradox, or maybe there is some sort of balance that naturally occurs. Oh well, whatever, just keep up the great work everyone. I certainly like what the material that people post, and I'm sure many if not most of the list does even if they are silent. I noticed something that I thought I should comment on immediately in the Wendar timeline. Wasn't it recently clarified that Gylharen (at least I think that's who it was who was reported to be a human in one source and and elf in another) was actually a half-elf? I haven't *examined* the timeline yet, but IIRC, he wasn't a half-elf in it. Otherwise, its sheer size seems to indicate that it's one of the greatest timelines posted to the list. :) P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:10:19 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... On Wed, 14 May 1997 David Melik wrote: >So do I. I guess creativity of any kind and business are two very different things that eventually conflict. Not that I'm insulting artists, but the people, no, the entire *system* that centralizes and uses them for other purposes. Maybe that will doom the industry, but if it declines, rpgs will rise again because they rule. As I see it, RPGs will never "die" unless we stop playing them. I am pretty sure I will never tire of the D&D world - and I still support the "fun" of the D&D game system over other supposedly more "advanced" systems... particularly the Storyteller system is heralded here as being great (I personally can't stand any game set in the "real world", and since I also have an aversion - as well as total lack of knowledge of - guns, they just don't appeal to me. My DMs always complain: "But you can't *only* have a sword, you'll die in seconds when someone shoots you with his PK-47 assault rifle!"). Also thought to be good (and here I actually agree for a change) is the Star Wars "D6" system. I have numerous times thought about grafting bits of Star Wars rules into D&D. Perhaps replacing the skill system, for instance. Anyhow, just last night one of my friends was moaning at me for playing D&D - "It's out of date", "The system is DIRE!", "It's not as good as ...". The thing is, as I'm sure a fair few D&D players will sympathise with, Mystara *IS* D&D to some of us! It doesn't matter if the system is "inadequate" - we can cut and paste with abandon. It doesn't matter if it has shortcomings - we can improvise. In short, I don't think the system MATTERS! It is the world which makes the big difference (at least from my DM and ex-player perspective). :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:26:31 -0300 From: Victor Caminha Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... >Anyhow, just last night one of my friends was moaning at me for playing D&D - "It's out of date", "The system is DIRE!", "It's not as good as ...". The thing is, as I'm sure a fair few D&D players will sympathise with, Mystara *IS* D&D to some of us! It doesn't matter if the system is "inadequate" - we can cut and paste with abandon. It doesn't matter if it has shortcomings - we can improvise. >In short, I don't think the system MATTERS! >It is the world which makes the big difference (at least from my DM and ex-player perspective). >:-) >Thorf Clap clap clap clap clap!!!1 Well said Thorf! Your words touched me for your sincerity and Truth! How many times i have met AD&D and storytelling gamers (no prejudice Really!) making a disgust expression qhen i told them i still played (and even preferred over AD&D) old and classic D&D. The only answer to this are in this list: US. No matter if Mystara is "officially" cancelled, WE are Mystara, we ARE D&D. As long we play, as long this list exists with the lovely discussions ranging from Carnifex to Rad, no one can never strip the existence of The Known World, of Mystara, of Hollow World.I am sorry if i was too bombastic, but auto-affirmation is serious enough even to bring an inveterate lurker like me out of torpor ;))) D&D Forever, Victor Caminha . "Receive the bounty of your hero's deed Tainting thy life by the gift of the dead Eternally running from a priestly bead Unable to bear the Orb in your head You'll walk in the darkness so alluring Without Hope to cleanse your sin Away from the joy of the living Forever to serve your Twin" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:12:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... In a message dated 97-05-15 00:07:11 EDT, you write: << In short, I don't think the system MATTERS! It is the world which makes the big difference (at least from my DM and ex-player perspective). :-) Thorf. >> Couldn't agree more, Thorf, couldn't agree more!!! Mystaros My personal choice as per my question would have to be... the system used for Talislanta, if Dangerous Journeys weren't available. The Talislanta system would fit right in, even down to the Vancian magic system, while I feel that DJ has the variety needed... I ran another world using DJ, and it went very successfully... Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #78 **************************** Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:10:43 -0500 From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #79 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, May 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 079 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:13:43 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... At 03:10 AM 5/15/97 +0100, Thorf wrote: >[...snip...] >The thing is, as I'm sure a fair few D&D players will sympathise with, Mystara *IS* D&D to some of us! It doesn't matter if the system is "inadequate" - we can cut and paste with abandon. It doesn't matter if it has shortcomings - we can improvise. >In short, I don't think the system MATTERS! >It is the world which makes the big difference (at least from my DM and ex-player perspective). You know, I'd agree with Thorf here, and I didn't even really 'get into' Mystara until fairly recently. I mean, yeah, I had the red boxed Basic set when I was, what, 9 or so, but when I really got into RPG's it was 1st Ed AD&D all the way. Then I got out for a long while after highschool. When I got back in, about four and a half years ago, it was at the behest of a good friend who has every Gaz, and all of the PC's and numerous other items all about 'Mystara'. And that's around when the 'Cyclopedia' came out too. I'd never heard of this world before, but once I /discovered/ Mystara, I was hooked! And many of my favourite older modules had been ret-conned to fit there (i.e., all the 'B' modules) I've read up and played in a lot of fantasy worlds (many home grown, but some commercial ones) and Mystara is by far and away the most detailed and useful one I've ever seen. From the earlier thread about what rules we use to play, its obvious that to most of us, the underlying mechanics are irrelevant -- D&D, AD&D, some weird mish-mash of both those, GURPS, and anything else you want to throw in -- its the WORLD we like, and all the interesting tidbits that go with it. Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:01:31 +0000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] Re: stuff & Wendar >There was some really cool stuff in your timeline, and the best thing is that most of it read as if it were "canon"! Well, the best way to make people discount something is to make it sound non-canon. (I'm just saying this because it seems like this is what goes on, personally I like new-net-canon and IMC stuff equally [wow saying IMC like that makes it sound like International Mining Corporation :) ]) Therefore we (or at least I) wanted to give the timeline a canon feel. Everything that it is in the timeline is from a canon source and nothing contradicts a canon source, AFAIK (well except where canon sources contradict each other). >><< BTW, do you plan to do any more work on Wendar in the near future? Going by the quality of your history I would really like to see a Wendar Gazetteer from you. :-) >Any way I can help? Ive got lots of ideas and Thoughts on these areas, and would definately like to see a gaz here :) Speaking for myself I think all help will be greatly appreciated. It would be good to see some sort of Wendar Gazetter, I think it was one of the core ones that TSR should-have-done-but-never-got-around-to-doing (that and a Heldann Freeholds Gazetter) >I noticed something that I thought I should comment on immediately in the Wendar timeline. Wasn't it recently clarified that Gylharen (at least I think that's who it was who was reported to be a human in one source and and elf in another) was actually a half-elf? I haven't *examined* the timeline yet, but IIRC, he wasn't a half-elf in it. Yeah, me and Marco saw that and we discussed it. In the Alfheim gazetter it talks about those elves not knowing about an half-elves. In a dragon magazine (the Esudria one, IIRC) it details half-elves but these are a special creation by Frey/Freyja. It states that under normal circumstances that one gene is dominant over the other and that you just don't get half-elves. The Alfheim gazetter goes into a bit more detail about what the union of male/female elf/human combinations gives you. Basically it seems that the only half-elves on Mystara are those created in Esudria which had their genetic makeup changed by immortals - otherwise they don't happen. I know that all this stuff was written pre-AD&D but personally a lack of half-elves has always been one of things that I liked about Mystara. So we decided not to make Gylharen a half-elf despite the worthy suggestion to the contrary. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:45:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... On Wed, 14 May 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >From the earlier thread about what rules we use to play, its obvious that to most of us, the underlying mechanics are irrelevant -- D&D, AD&D, some weird mish-mash of both those, GURPS, and anything else you want to throw in -- its the WORLD we like, and all the interesting tidbits that go with it. This is very true. I've occasionally considered running a Mystara campaign using Feng Shui rules. It'd have quite a different feel, but I think it would be very amusing, especially because you can have those classic fights against nameless hordes of enemies without getting caught up in the classic hours-long mess of die-rolling and hit-point tallying. It might serve to give the game an interesting cinematic feel... ("I swing from the chandelier, kicking the ogre in the chin with both feet as I pass, then leap to the ground, land in a somersault, and snap to my feet with Both Wands Blazing." "Works for me.") - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:44:21 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Tue, 13 May 1997, Patrick wrote: >Ok. I know that TSR was trying to eliminate all potentially-offensive terms from its product lines. And when they came out with the AD&D Karameikos boxed set, they changed the name of "Hell's Jailors," the military division at Radlebb Keep, to "Baator's Jailors." Can anyone tell me where this term comes from? Baator is the new name of Nine Hells in Planescape. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:06:44 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] A bit offtopic, so don't kill me... :( Whoopeee!!! I'm done! Today was my last final, and I will soon be heading down that ramp to "receive" my "diploma"... yeah, right. :) Anyway, barring a class I have to take this summer, my undergrad work has come to an end, and now I can concentrate more fully on the important things in life, like working on our fave world, Mystara! I just wanted to share, and don't want to burden the list with a bunch of congrats, etc., so I'll assume you're all as happy for me as I would be for you, and if you really, really want to congratulate me, feel free to drop me a line to my account. :) We now return you to your regularly scheduled list... Which reminds me, I was going over the Minrothad Gaz the other day. How do the rest of you work the Merchant-Prince class? As shown, or some other way? Personally, I think it is a bit unbalancing the way it is, and thought it would be better suited to being a separate class, but I'm not entirely sure yet how to adapt it. Also, shouldn't they be able to use other magic, given that their magic is a combination of Alphatian and Elven magic? Just askin', Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:29:55 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... In various messages, some people wrote: << and if WotC won't >be willing to sell of the rights or license it out, I don't think Mystara will EVER see the light of day again, much like Greyhawk... >> Don't jump to conclusions folks. None of you really know what is happening behind the curtains. Whether or not Mystara, Greyhawk, or other *dead* worlds stand a chance to see renewed activity is entirely speculative. Either way, you just don't know that for a fact. Never give up hope. Passing time can do unexpected things (good or bad). All it takes is a decent opportunity... :) << (ESPECIALLY if they go direct, like TSR was planning on doing).>> . . . What? TSR going direct? Where did this come from? Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:41:18 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] stuff & Wendar On Wed, 14 May 1997 David Melik wrote: II just wanted to say, I've really liked all the projects that have been posted to the list recently. It seems like "the floodgates have been opened." I was meaning to comment on the Kogolor Dwarves, Western Karameikos, the Sand Folk and Wendar Timeline, but a while ago all my Mystara messages mysteriously disappeared, and Mystaros is right about that end of school thing. It seems like for some people, the more projects we work on, maybe we read them and discuss stuff less, and perhaps the more we discuss the less projects we do, trying to keep up with the various threads. I guess I like actual info a lot, but that only starts with discussions, so it's some weird paradox, or maybe there is some sort of balance that naturally occurs. Oh well, whatever, just keep up the great work everyone. I certainly like what the material that people post, and I'm sure many if not most of the list does even if they are silent. The thing is, projects are generally done off of the list, so there is actually much more going on than you might have thought, even when the list itself is quiet. Since getting involved in the almanac and a few other things, I can give you my word on this. ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:45:41 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re:[Mystara] stuff & Wendar my stuff has been cut >The thing is, projects are generally done off of the list, so there is actually much more going on than you might have thought, even when the list itself is quiet. >Since getting involved in the almanac and a few other things, I can give you my word on this. ;-) Isn't that what I implied? I'm in the MOrient team and often it's like a list of it's own. :) Are you doing a city map for the almanac by any chance? I'm planning to do one. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:06:02 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Universities: the complete list (long) Here it is as i promised, the whole list of the Mystaran Universities. I think i may have missed only the Savage Coast ones (if there are any) cause i had no time to chack in those supplements, so if anyone can fill it up... Enjoy it! :) MAJOR UNIVERSITIES OF MYSTARA Location Name Most Illustrious Teachings Aasla (Alphatia)* Eriadna High Magic of the Air, Astronomy Alchemos (Meriander, Bellissaria) University of Alchemos Alchemy Alfheim Town (Alfheim)** Edrecort's Academy of Thaumaturgical Science Basic Magic and Spell Research Biazzan (Thyatis) University of Biazzan Algebra, Hollow World Theories Camp Sodhor (Broken Lands)*** Thar's Legion Orcish Warfare (humanoids ONLY) Corisa (Milenian Empire -HW) Academy of the Arcane Magic, Philosophy, Botany, Monster Lore, Arts, Literature Corunglain (Darokin) University of Corun Siege Warfare, Land-based Exploration Darokin City (Darokin) DDC Compound Diplomacy, Global Trading Dengar (Rockhome) Skarrad High Seminary Architecture, Engineering Evemur (Rockhome) Syrklist Conservatory Mining, Metallurgy, Geology Featherfall (Aeria, Alatian Islands) University of Air Magics Magic of the Air, Skyship Engineering & Enchanting Glantri City (Glantri) Great School of Magic Magic in all its forms Harbortown (Minrothad) School of Harbortown Navigation, Commercial Shipbuilding Ierendi City (Ierendi) Naval Academy Navigation, Naval Warfare Krakatos (Karameikos) Karameikan School of Magecraft Magic in all its forms Leenz (Glantri) Drachen Zentral Monster Lore and Hunting Newkirk (Westrourke, Isle of Dawn) Newkirk High Sea Exploration, Linguistics Norrvik (Vestland) Uppsala College Magical Runes, Poetry, Folklore Retebius (Thyatis) Retebius Air Academy Air Warfare, Flying creatures Training Rymskigrad (Glantri) Igorov Institute Ancient History, Necromancy Sayr Ulan (Sind) Ul-Nervi Palace Philosophy, Theology Seashield (Aquas) Zyndryl University Acquatic Races, Underwater Magic, Sea Exploration Selenica (Darokin) University of Al-Azrad Economics, Commerce, Administration Serraine (Flying City of Serraine) Top Ballista Flying School Aircraft Piloting, Air Warfare Shireton (Five Shires) Shireton Tea House Literature, Poetry, Agriculture Skyreach (Floating Ar) Aerial University of Ar Air Magic, Skyship Engineering & Enchanting Specularum/Mirros (Karameikos)**** Magicians' Guild Hall Basic Magic & Spell Research Stahl (Rockhome) Lyceum of Dwarven Magic Dwarven Magic Crafting Sundsvall (Alphatia)***** Sundsvall University Universal Magic, Arcane Exploration Thyatis City (Thyatis) Imperial Academy Land Warfare, Diplomacy Thyatis City (Thyatis) College of Lucinius (aka Collegium Arcanum) Magical Warfare & Engineering Trollhattan (Alphatia) Large Grey House Spying & Stealth Techniques, Alchemy (Poisons) Vyonnes (Glantri) Beaux Arts de Vyonnes Art & Entertaining Ylaruam Town (Ylaruam) Dream of the Desert Garden University Water Management, Theology (*) Aasla was destroyed in a firestorm early in the war with Glantri, and sowas Eriadna High. (**) When Alfheim Town was conquered by the Shadowelves all the citizens fled, and so did Edrecort: therefore it's very likely that his academy is now closed, and it will remain until he decides to return there (that's to say when the Shadowelves will finally welcome other races in their twisted forest) (***) Thar's Legion is probably now disbanded, according to the last events depicted in PWA1014. It is likely however, that Kol has (or is about to) built up his own personal "university" (more a junior high school) about Kobold Warfare and Trapbuilding Techniques. (****) The Magicians' Guildhall led by Teldon may still exist, though his prestige his now very much reduced due to the construction of the new Karameikan School of Magecraft. It's likely the Guildhall offers courses to those pupils who cannot afford to pay for the KSM and to those rookies of the magical arts. (*****) The Imperial Academy was destroyed during the Sundsvall Incident, when the capital was uttery destroyed by magical and natural forces. It is not unlikely however, that Empress Eriadna has arranged the construction of a New Imperial Academy in the capital of Jafilia, and it will probably open in AC 1015. New Suggested Universities (basing on TSR released information) Location Name Most Illustrious Teachings Alpha (Alpha) Royal University of Norwold Agriculture, Land Warfare, Basic Magic Draco (Alphatia) Alphatian Military Academy Land Warfare, Military Tactics Erendyl (Glantri) Erewan Dateless University Botany, Horticulture, Zoology Minrothad City (Minrothad) Minrothad Institute of Trading Economics, Trading & Marketing Port Lucinius (Thyatis) Imperial Naval Academy (aka Collegium Navalis) Navigation, Naval Wafare, Shipbuilding Rardish (Alphatia)* Alphatian Naval Academy Naval Warfare, Shipbuilding Starpoint (Alphatia)* University of Starpoint Astronomy, Arts & Entertaining Tameronikas (Ylaruam) Ylaruam Medical Curative Academy Medicine, Healing Methods, Herbalism Trollhattan (Alphatia) Multiracial University of Trollhattan Ethnography, Monster Lore, Zoology (*) Since Aasla has been destroyed and the Floating Ar is on the surface world, and since now Alphatia is a floating continent without any access to the sea, it is likely that either the University of Starpoint or the ANA (or both) have been converted to the teachings of Air Magic and Air Combat and to the production of Airships. As a last note i'd like to point out that i intorduced a few small similarities with our world universities: just look and try to find them out! It's a bit of entertaining. :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:25:24 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Gylharen Half-elf? No, thank you... At 19.29 14/05/97 -0700, Dave Melik wrote: >I noticed something that I thought I should comment on immediately in the Wendar timeline. Wasn't it recently clarified that Gylharen (at least I think that's who it was who was reported to be a human in one source and and elf in another) was actually a half-elf? I haven't *examined* the timeline yet, but IIRC, he wasn't a half-elf in it. Otherwise, its sheer size seems to indicate that it's one of the greatest timelines posted to the list. :) Actually, the only one reference about Gylharen being a half-elf was given by Steve Miller in an unofficial letter published on this mailing list a few weeks ago, but it was in no way related to the official campaign: it was just his idea. PWA1012 (the AD&D version) gives Gylharen the stats of an elf, and so we tried to adjust the way he's presented there with the way he was (briefly) portrayed in X11 (as a human), and we came up with the idea of the Elvenstar side effect. Also, read the following passage wrote by Shawn Stanley, as it will explain more about the issue: " In the Alfheim gazetter it talks about those elves not knowing about an half-elves. In a dragon magazine (the Eusdria one, IIRC) it details half-elves but these are a special creation by Frey/Freyja. It states that under normal circumstances that one gene is dominant over the other and that you just don't get half-elves. The Alfheim gazetter goes into a bit more detail about what the union of male/female elf/human combinations gives you. Basically it seems that the only half-elves on Mystara are those created in Eusdria which had their genetic makeup changed by immortals - otherwise they don't happen. I know that all this stuff was written pre-AD&D but personally a lack of half-elves has always been one of things that I liked about Mystara. So we decided not to make Gylharen a half-elf despite the worthy suggestion to the contrary." DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:06:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) On Wed, 14 May 1997, David Melik wrote: >Maybe, but I wonder how many people actually consider **AD&D* *Chronomancer** as Mystara canon! :) Not me. Mainly because I never read it, but also because the paradoxes of time travel makes my head dizzy :P Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:01:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Wed, 14 May 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Wed, 14 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >>IMC, Hell's Jailors are still known by that name as the plane of Baator is unknown to Mystaran planewalkers. >Wouldn't "Pyt's Jailors" be a bit more appropriate? :) Any other ideas for names of Entrophic planes? Im looking specifically for something hell-like for Thanatos' Homeplane. Na Zdarovje! Haavard - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:40:41 -0400 From: Hervé MUSSEAU Subject: [Mystara] Acronyms << On Sat, 10 May 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: WWhat is most jarring is the "fact" that very few people on Mystara speak English -- so we must presume that any names we see that include obvious English words must be translations of the corresponding Thyatian, Alphatian, or whatever. And that is what makes the acronyms truly jarring -- after all, there is no reason to assume that the first letters of >the Alphatian words for "New Alphatian Confederated Empire" spell "NACE". And if any of this material has been translated into other languages, then I suspect that the acronyms may not make much sense to them -- especially if the new language is a non-European language. Good point. So what do we do? We could invent some new names. Ideas anyone? Herve? On NACE it is possible that the Alphatians couldn't come up with a nicer name. But instead of using the acronyms we could rather assume that people refer to it as the Confederate Empire or something. Like we europeans refer to the USA as America, or the United States. (sorry to bring that up again Sebastian Quiles :) When it comes to Ionace we probably should come up with some other name. (Herve Musseau, you made this up, are you still around? Otherwise your work is great though :) Haavard Oh well, I know some of you don't like acronyms, and hence don't like the word NACE. If you don't like it, use the name Nace instead and forget its origin.. or better yet, find a name that best suits your own campaign. I think commoners refer to the NACE as Alphatia anyway, only bureaucrats and diplomats call it by its name (and even then, they probably say Confederate Empire as you propose, or Alphatian Empire, or Alphatian Confederacy, or any other variation). Oh, yes, to answer to someone else, I pronunce it like mace. Though I don't really pronunce it, since my campaign is still in 1003 and I'm French :) BTW, I'm still around and I'm working on the events for the NACE for 1015 (among other areas..). If anyone is interested in working on it with me they can get in touch with me easily at herve@hotmail.com or hmusseau@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:20:10 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] History of Blackmoor Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >Thanks Drew, but this isn't just the DA series material on Blackmoor, this is my own History of Mystara from 10,000 BC through 3000 BC, from the Rise of the Human Races to the Great Rain of Fire. It's something like nearly 30 pages of history in a story format. It also traces the "Technomantic" version of Blackmoor, in which there was a thousand years of development of technology and magic between the founding of Blackmoor and the GRoF... as it's rather long, I don't think I should post it as a letter (90,000+ KB's in TXT format). Anyone interested please email me and I'll send it out attached later... >Mystaros I would like a copy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:56:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Jonathan Devaprasad <96devapr@scar.utoronto.ca> Subject: Re: [Mystara] History of Blackmoor Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >Thanks Drew, but this isn't just the DA series material on Blackmoor, this is my own History of Mystara from 10,000 BC through 3000 BC, from the Rise of the Human Races to the Great Rain of Fire. It's something like nearly 30 pages of history in a story format. It also traces the "Technomantic" version of Blackmoor, in which there was a thousand years of development of technology and magic between the founding of Blackmoor and the GRoF... as it's rather long, I don't think I should post it as a letter (90,000+ KB's in TXT format). Anyone interested please email me and I'll send it out attached later... >Mystaros I would like a copy please ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:24:55 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) In a message dated 97-05-16 08:31:48 EDT, you write: << Maybe, but I wonder how many people actually consider **AD&D* *Chronomancer** as Mystara canon! :) >> Well, it IS canon as it is a bit of information published by TSR about Mystara. I don't think you can argue whether it is canon or not. You can argue whether or not you like it and intend to use it in your campaign, however. I personally ignore most of the Chronomancer stuff, as I like the "Emerald River" from the Blood Brethern trilogy of adventures (although I did get several neat ideas from the supplement). Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:20:44 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Fri, 16 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: OOn Wed, 14 May 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >>On Wed, 14 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >>>IMC, Hell's Jailors are still known by that name as the plane of Baator is unknown to Mystaran planewalkers. >>Wouldn't "Pyt's Jailors" be a bit more appropriate? :) >Any other ideas for names of Entrophic planes? Im looking specifically for something hell-like for Thanatos' Homeplane. Tartarus? (The Roman/Greek equivalent of Hell - at least sort of) Thorf. (No, Thorf was not an idea for a name. ;-) ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:59:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Fri, 16 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Any other ideas for names of Entrophic planes? Im looking specifically for something hell-like for Thanatos' Homeplane. How about- "AAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!" :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:32:02 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) At 12:24 PM 5/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-16 08:31:48 EDT, you write: ><< Maybe, but I wonder how many people actually consider **AD&D* **Chronomancer** as Mystara canon! :) >> >Well, it IS canon as it is a bit of information published by TSR about Mystara. I don't think you can argue whether it is canon or not. You can argue whether or not you like it and intend to use it in your campaign, however. I personally ignore most of the Chronomancer stuff, as I like the "Emerald River" from the Blood Brethern trilogy of adventures (although I did get several neat ideas from the supplement). Sure I can argue about Chronomancer's canonity, or even that the sun is purple (but that doesn't mean you have to agree, see what I mean.) Many people don't accept the Penhaligon trilogy and Dragonlord trilogy as canon for example, and they seem more canon than Chronomancer. They just supposedly have some discrepancies. Chronomancer, on the other hand (this is all IIRC) doesn't fit with the nature of Mystara and it's cosmology. It uses Planescape planes, AD&D gods, and different magic. Okay, I'll admit, it could be modified, and I'm saying this because I greatly dislike Planescape and think time travel is absolutely crazy (I probably would only let Old Ones time travel.) Still, I wonder if anyone else thinks so. I'm certainly going to ignore it. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:31:54 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... At 12:26 AM 5/12/97 -0300, you wrote: >>Anyhow, just last night one of my friends was moaning at me for playing D&D - "It's out of date", "The system is DIRE!", "It's not as good as ...". The thing is, as I'm sure a fair few D&D players will sympathise with, Mystara *IS* D&D to some of us! It doesn't matter if the system is "inadequate" - we can cut and paste with abandon. It doesn't matter if it has shortcomings - we can improvise. >>In short, I don't think the system MATTERS! >>It is the world which makes the big difference (at least from my DM and ex-player perspective). >>:-) >>Thorf Well what matters is that you have fun, and with a crappy system I know it would be a lot less fun for me. There's this system I've seen that was actually made as a joke. Imagine playing with that all the time, or with the monotonic AD&D weapon specialization & combat system! Of course, the same goes for the world. I know I wouldn't want to play on Dark Sun even with a perfect system, it just doesn't have the fantasy style and variety I like, but Mystara has lots of cool unique stuff about it (as well average thingsof fantasy that are nice too). From my experience, the DM matters most, and the players come close after. The world and the system will be no better than the DM's (and players') ability to use them to their potential, and if the anyone has decided to just mess around, the game's likely going to be screwed up even with a skilled DM. Sure, great worlds (and fun & playable systems) help, but in the end, they just sit there and do nothing unless we use them. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:06:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-16 20:37:32 EDT, you write: << On Fri, 16 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: Any other ideas for names of Entrophic planes? Im looking specifically for something hell-like for Thanatos' Homeplane. >> Here is the list of Outer Planes I've developed for my own campaign; it is by no means complete, but I put it together from all the sources I had available (save IM3; the 24 Planes of Mazikeen are not true Planes in my campaign). No description is included; this is just the index from my "Treatsie concerning the Mystaran Multiverse and Beyond", one of my works in progress, to be finished slightly after the fourth edition of RuneQuest... hope this helps somewhat... Acheron (Thought; Homeplane of Karaash) Alfheim (Time; Plane of the Norse Elves) Alvarian (Energy; Homeplane of Mealiden Starwatcher) Arcadia (Matter; Homeplane of Faunus) Arnak (Thought; Homeplane of Noumena) Asgard (Thought; Homeplane of Odin) Beastlands, The (Energy; Homeplane of Zirchev) Brynn (Matter) Canathia (Matter; Homeplane of Valerias) Celestia (Energy; Homeplane of Razud) Ceticia (Time; Homeplane of Protius) Chasm (Entropy) Chronopolis (Time; Homeplane of Khoronus) Chronus (Time; Jumper Homeplane) Citadel of Bronze (Thought; Homeplane of Halav) Cthonia (Entropy; Homeplane of Thanatos) Cyprisia (Energy; Homeplane of Alphatia) Doomgaard (Entropy; Homeplane of Alphaks) Draconia (Matter; Homeplane of the Great One) Draesten (Energy) Draconian Cluster, The (Homeplanes of the Immortal Dragons) Einion (Thought; Homeplane of Diulanna) Eirysia (Energy; Homeplane of Eiryndul) Elysia (Time; Homeplane of Petra) Entrem (Time) Etoile (Energy; Homeplane of Rad) Everelen (Time; Homeplane of Calitha Starbrow) Faerdinel (Thought; Halfling Heroplane) Gardarak (Matter; Homeplane of Kagyar) Ge (Matter; Homeplane of Djaea) Happy Hunting Grounds (Matter; Homeplane of Atruaghin) Helius (Energy; Homeplane of Ixion) Hutaak (Energy; Homeplane of Pflarr) Iustare (Energy; Homeplane of Tarastia) Isle of Night (Entropy) Jotunheim (Matter; Plane of the Norse Giant) Kryla (Matter; Adjacent to Pyts and Rylum) Leugola (Entropy; Homeplane of Masauwu) Lunara (Matter; Homeplane of Pearl) Midgard (Thought; Norse Archetypical Plane) Mirage (Thought) Mirror (Thought; aka Skarda's Miror) Mondara (Thought; Homeplane of Asterius) Muse (Thought; Notion Homeplane) Muspelheim (Entropy; Homeplane of Surt) Necros (Entropy; Homeplane of Nyx) Nexus (Time; Corridor through Space and Time) Niflheim (Entropy; Homeplane of Hel) Opus (Energy; Tonal Homeplane) Ossia (Entropy; Homeplane of Orcus) Pandius (Special; City of the Immortals) Paradise (Time; Homeplane of Al-Kalim) Pax (Thought; Homeplane of Koryis) Pits of Banishment (Entropy; Prison of the Carnifex) Plains of Steel (Time; Homeplane of Vanya) Pyts (Entropy) Rainbow, The (Energy; Corridor in Space) Rathanak (Energy; Homeplane of Rathanos) Rouvenia (Time; Homeplane of Ordana) Rylum (Energy; Adjacent to Kryla and Pyts) Sauras (Matter; Homeplane of Ka) Seven Realms, The (Varies; Gates to the Pits of Banishment) Solus (Matter; Homeplane of Opal) Spirit World, The (Special; aka The Otherworld) Spithra (Thought; Homeplane of Korotiku) Sterne (Matter; Homeplane of Diamond) Strobe (Energy; Flicker Homeplane) Svartalfheim (Entropy; Plane of the Norse Dark Elves) Swergheim (Matter; Plane of the Norse Elder Dwarves) Sybaria (Entropy; Homeplane of Talitha) Sylvania (Energy; Homeplane of Ilsundal) Tellus (Matter; Homeplane of Terra) Tempus (Time; Homeplane of Fugit) Thorne (Entropy; Homeplane of the Night Spider) Thrudheim (Energy; Homeplane of Thor) Tlalxicco (Entropy; Homeplane of Atzanteotl) Utgarth (Entropy; Homeplane of Loki) Vanaheim (Thought; Homeplane of Frey and Freyja) Yggdrasil (Special; Interplanar/Interdimensional Nexus) Mystaros (no, not a plane, just me :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:32:00 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) In a message dated 97-05-16 20:46:32 EDT, you write: << Sure I can argue about Chronomancer's canonity, or even that the sun is purple (but that doesn't mean you have to agree, see what I mean.) Many people don't accept the Penhaligon trilogy and Dragonlord trilogy as canon for example, and they seem more canon than Chronomancer. They just supposedly have some discrepancies. Chronomancer, on the other hand (this is all IIRC) doesn't fit with the nature of Mystara and it's cosmology. It uses Planescape planes, AD&D gods, and different magic. Okay, I'll admit, it could be modified, and I'm saying this because I greatly dislike Planescape and think time travel is absolutely crazy (I probably would only let Old Ones time travel.) Still, I wonder if anyone else thinks so. I'm certainly going to ignore it. >> When I say that Chronomancer (and the D&D novels as well, BTW) ARE canon, I make that statement based on the following definition: CANON: What is published by TSR on its game worlds. NOT CANON: What is designed for TSR's game worlds by folks other than TSR . . . gamers. Yes, what TSR publishes about Mystara has been contradictory (understatement of the decade! :) ). And it is obvious that several TSR editors, game designers, and novelists didn't do all of their homework (or didn't care to do so). I think its foolish to debate what is canon and what isn't, because its like debating that the sun is purple :). Canon is what TSR publishes whether we like it or hate it, and whether it makes any sense at all with the other published material. What we can argue about is what aspects of the Mystara canon we like and don't like, and what we choose to use in our own campaigns. I personally like a lot of Mystaro's work a lot better than some of the published stuff! Anyway, I'm probably going off on a foolish sematic tirade of my own, so I'll quit :) BTW, what don't you like about Planescape and Chronomancer (have you checked out the Shaman supplement?)? Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:48:11 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: [Mystara] Hyborea I've been working on my campaign's Hyborean region lately. I've used the FR accessory FR14 - The Great Glacier quite a lot and I thought I'd share a bit and see what everyone thought. As for the placement of this region, I've tentatively put it northwest of Norwold. I don't have it completely nailed down, but I do like it on Brun as it makes it more accessable to my PCs. Anyway, here is the timeline to AC 1000. This is hardly canon - it's taken from FR14 with a few changes to fit it into Mystara. Enjoy! HYBOREAN TIMELINE BC 4500: Beastmen - reincarnated souls of evil beings - are discovered in the upper Borean Valley. These beastmen are wild, chaotic creatures which do not breed true; whelps may have some or none of the traits of their parents, and may be a different size and appearance. BC 3500: Priests of Blackmoor demand the extermination of the "unnatural" beastmen in the Borean Valley, and promote holy wars to hunt down and destroy those creatures. BC 3200: The Blackmoor crusades drive the beastmen farther north to the frozen reaches of Hyborea. Arctic breeds of beastmen appear. BC 3000: The Great Rain of Fire. The Blackmoor explosion tilts the planet’s axis so that Hyborea is no longer at the north pole. BC 2925: The Hyborean glaciers begin to slowly recede and move further north towards the new north pole and the "new" Hyborea. BC 2500: Dwarves and gnomes move north as the continental ice sheet recedes. One clan of dwarves refuses to participate in a dwarven war party preparing to raid peaceful settlements in the Known World’s Northern Reaches. Convicted as traitors, the clan is exiled to Hyborea. The clan begins a year-long trek to an area they call Novularond; all but four die along the way. The survivors are the forebears of a new race of arctic dwarves called the Innugaakalikurit (EE-nu-GA-ka-LEE-ku-rit). BC 2400: The land of old Hyborea is now warming up; the beastmen migrate out of the area. Some gather at Urzud while others move up into the Hyborean Reaches and beyond into the dark lands to the north. BC 2098: Antalian hunters skilled in winter survival migrate to search for new species of game in Hyborea. Shortly thereafter, a tirichik ambushes the party and kills the leader. The survivors panic and become lost, inadvertently moving deeper into Hyborea. Eventually, they reach the shores of an inland sea they eventually call the Lugalpgotak Sea. They renounce their faith in the Immortals, whom they hold responsible for their misfortune. Permanent settlements are established, and the hunters become the precursors of the Ulutiuns (EE-oo-LOO-shee-uns). BC 1812: Descendants of the hunters expand north from their lands now called Alpuk, discovering the Glacier of Ulutiu near the Uppuk River. Carved in the glacier are mysterious and extensive writings, some of which the hunters manage to translate. Ulutiu is revealed to be the author of the writings, and supposedly the being responsible for the creation for the glacier itself. Some of the hunters are so impressed with this discovery that they declare themselves disciples of Ulutiu, who they presume to be an Immortal. The group decides to migrate further north and establish their own settlements dedicated to the worship of Ulutiu; these become the forebears of the Nakulutiun tribes. The remaining hunters return to their homes in Alpuk, thereafter calling themselves Iulutiuns. BC 1800: The Immortal Kagyar transforms the dwarvish race and places them in Rockhome and the Northern Reaches. The arctic dwarves in Hyborea he leaves alone as they seem to be surviving better than the other outer world dwarves. BC 1636: Lured by the abundance of caribou, an Iulutiun faction moves to Angalpuk. The faction are the first of the nomadic Angulutiuns. BC 1500: Elsewhere in the world, the Nithian culture climbs to its greatness. No contact is made with Hyborea. BC 1413: In the wake of a particularly harsh winter, several Iulutiun settlements unite to wage war on their Angulutiun neighbors in Angalpuk, coveting the sizable Angulutiun caribou herds. The raid triggers the fifty-year Keryjek Wars, named for the mountain range in which most of the fighting occurred. BC 1363: The Keryjek Wars end with a treaty between the Iulutiun and Angulutiun leaders. To encourage communication and promote good will, the leaders inaugurate the first koatulit, where guests are exchanged for a week-long festival of games and banquets. Koatulit have been held every year since; as a result, there have been few serious conflicts between the Iulutiuns and the Angulutiuns. BC 1351: Iulutiun representatives from the settlement of Gronne attempt to establish formal relations with the Innugaakalikurit dwarves in Novularond by inviting them to participate in the koatulit. The Innugaakalikurit decline, but the invitation marks the beginning of a long and cordial relationship between the Innugaakalikurit and the Ulutiuns. BC 1210: The Year of the Great Flood. An unusually warm summer causes the waters of the Nakalpgotak and Lugalpgotak Seas to rise and engulf Ulutiun villages near the shore line. Hundreds of Ulutiuns drown when their villages are washed away. BC 1048: A party of Innugaakalikurit discovers a Blackmoorian device on a high peak in Novularond. The Innugaakalikurit disassemble the device and take the parts home with them. A day later, an enraged group of frost giants tracks them down and demands the return of the weapon. The Innugaakalikurit refuse. The frost giants respond by attacking and destroying an Innugaakalikurit village. To avoid an all-out war, the elders of Gronne intervene, volunteering to negotiate a settlement. The Gronne elders ultimately find the Innugaakalikurit guilty of theft; the frost giants are awarded custody of the dwarven thieves. The frost giants make slaves of the prisoners; descendants of the of the prisoners remain enslaved today. The Blackmoor device was ruined beyond all hope of repair when the dwarves disassembled it. BC 662: Rumbles from the depths of the Olyniak Crevasse attract the attention of curious Nakulutiuns. The Nakulutiuns inadvertently awaken a slumbering monster in the crevasse, described by a survivor as "a grotesque blend of a tirichik and a white dragon, as large as a mountain, with fangs of gold and wings of ice." The monster devours dozens of shrieking Nakulutiuns before returning to the crevasse. The monster, named Ufloq by the Nakulutiuns, has not been seen since. AC 0: Elsewhere in the world, the first Emperor of Thyatis is crowned. AC 10: Treasure hunters from Thyatis enter Angalpuk, bringing with them a rare disease that doesn’t affect the hunters, but proves deadly to both Angulutiuns and caribou. Hundreds of Angulutiuns and caribou succumb to the sickness, before the carriers are isolated and exiled to the Ibelgrak Valley in the southeastern corner of Angalpuk. A few caribou and Angalpuk in the Ibelgrak Valley are believed to still carry the dormant disease. AC 588: All traces of the old Hyborean glacier has finally melted. AC 691: A contingent of evil wizards from the Alphatia employ their powerful magic to construct a castle of ice at the base of Mount Okk, one of the tallest peaks of the Lugsaas Chain. The wizards use the castle as a base to develop a new type of cold-based magic with which they plan to conquer the Flaemish lands. They amass a sizable cache of gems and precious metals for use in their magical research, stored in a labyrinth beneath the castle, guarded by a small army of magically-generated ice monsters. AC 698: A massive earthquake rocks the Lugsaas Chain. A fissure opens near the base of Mount Okk, swallowing the ice castle of the Alphatian wizards. An avalanche dumps tons of snow and ice on the fissure, burying the castle and its occupants. The wizards are presumed dead. AC 868: Azlum Swith, one of Mystara’s greatest explorers, begins his twenty-year trek through the Hyborean Reaches, culminating in the writing of Blood and Ice: Survival in Hyborea, the definitive arctic survival guide. AC 980: Sharra Swith, the great-great-great-granddaughter of Azlum Swith, decides to continue her grandfather’s work, planning to focus Volume Two of Blood and Ice on the treacherous Nakvaligach region, an area of Hyborea that Azlum was unable to fully explore. Traveling alone, Sharra enters Hyborea about 100 miles northeast of the Frozen Forest. She is never heard from again. Azlum (who has used several potions of longivity and is still exploring the far reaches of Mystara) is currently planning another expedition to Hyborea to search for clues. In light of the returned Karameikan Polar Expedition, believes his granddaughter might have entered the Hollow World via the north polar opening. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #79 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #80 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, May 20 1997 Volume 02 : Number 080 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:00:21 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Manacapuru error I was just going over the old Princess Ark articles last night, when I noticed something: Haldemar encounters the Manacapuru tribesmen (at that point unnamed) just south of the equator, and right on the Sundsvall Meridian. However, the location of Manacapuru on the PWA map is somewhat west of that location! Apparently the Manacapuru have migrated in the 40-50 years since Haldemar encountered them... ;) My guess is that the Yasuko tribes and the Manacapuru tribes locations got transposed on the map, and that the "town" of Manacapuru is actually the location of a major Yasuko village. Not only just because I doubt that Haldemar got the location wrong (why would Eriadna send him out to map the globe if knows jack about cartography?), but also because the Yasuko are noted to perhaps be related to the Ochaleans, and that location is closer to Ochalea than is the current location, as given on the map. On another note, any guesses as to the original stock and origin of the Oceanians? They are described as having "brick-red" skin tone. My guess is that they are some sort of Oltec descendants, having migrated to Oceania at some point following the Great Rain of Fire, and then migrating to Cestia (and displacing native Tanagoro Cestians there), when the Night Dragons and undead took over Oceania. Third thought: Could the Night Dragon dominance of Oceania be related to the destruction of Varellya (the civilization formerly on the Vulture Peninsula)? The Oceanians/Cestians note that they were displaced "centuries" ago, where Varellya was destroyed c. 600 AC. Given the correspondence of Entropy related events, a correlation might not be entirely unlikely, here... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 03:01:29 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] AD&D Kits Hi everyone, Since the list has quieted down a bit, I thought I'd ask a question that's been bugging me for a while: What exactly are AD&D kits, and where can I find rules for them? Specifically, where can I find the kits which are most applicable to Mystara? I'm interested because I've been formatting the excellent (and FREE!) Savage Coast campaign setting documents from the TSR page, and I noticed some "kits" which looked very interesting. Now I'm looking for a complete set of kits for using in Mystara, in my D&D campaign - I think they will make nice "background" bases for my D&D characters. (I don't actually play AD&D, otherwise I presume I would know what these kit things are and how to use them, though I do have the Player's and DM's Guides. I couldn't find anything there about them.) Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:56:52 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) On Sat, 17 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: >When I say that Chronomancer (and the D&D novels as well, BTW) ARE canon, I >make that statement based on the following definition: > >CANON: What is published by TSR on its game worlds. > >NOT CANON: What is designed for TSR's game worlds by folks other than TSR . >. . gamers. > >Yes, what TSR publishes about Mystara has been contradictory (understatement >of the decade! :) ). And it is obvious that several TSR editors, game >designers, and novelists didn't do all of their homework (or didn't care to >do so). > >I think its foolish to debate what is canon and what isn't, because its like >debating that the sun is purple :). Canon is what TSR publishes whether we >like it or hate it, and whether it makes any sense at all with the other >published material. This is not necessarily true; a "canon" is generally an accepted body of work, not necessarily an encompassing category. As an example, all novels are not part of the (or rather a certain) literary canon. Neither are all books of a certain genre, subject or theme. In theory all TSR-published works are canon, but in practice it is acceptance of said publications which determines whether or not it is part of the canon. And from what I have seen, very few people accept the Mystara novels (specifically the Penhaligon trilogy) as canonical. I am not commenting on this matter personally since I have only read The Black Vessel, and moreover I *do* consider it canonical. Anyway, it's not really an important point. For less "unified" subjects like TV series and films which spawn their own body of "work", the canon argument becomes even worse because people begin to consider one source (usually the original) as "better" than another... thankfully we only have this argument as regards to chronology of sources, though some consider certain authors to be "more canonical"... I'm stopping now, I promise... >What we can argue about is what aspects of the Mystara canon we like and >don't like, and what we choose to use in our own campaigns. I personally >like a lot of Mystaro's work a lot better than some of the published stuff! Exactly. We each choose which works to include in our own Mystara canon. For instance, Mystaros' canon probably includes his extensions to the so-called "official" body of canon, my canon includes most of the stuff in my campaigns, etc. >Anyway, I'm probably going off on a foolish sematic tirade of my own, so I'll >quit :) Uh... it seems I've joined in too. Sorry! ;-) >BTW, what don't you like about Planescape and Chronomancer (have you checked >out the Shaman supplement?)? I know this wasn't directed at me, but from what I've heard I won't like Planescape as regards to Mystara, though it might be fun on its own. Chronomancer I've had my eye on for a wee while... does anyone have any advice on why or why not to buy it? Also, what is the Shaman supplement like? Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:04:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Kits In a message dated 97-05-17 23:09:38 EDT, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << What exactly are AD&D kits, and where can I find rules for them? Specifically, where can I find the kits which are most applicable to Mystara? >> I am afraid that they are literally scattered all over the place, mostly in various volumes of the "Complete Handbook" series. However, the Red Steel boxed set is probably your best place to start -- eliminate the kits that are obviously applicable only to the Savage Coast and the remaining ones are fairly useful. For more civilized areas such as Karameikos or Darokin, the Karameikos boxed set gives more useful kits. The Glantri boxed set gives two uniquely Glantrian kits, but I would not recommend it if all you are after is information about kits. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:00:32 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Kits At 03:01 18-05-97 +0100, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >Since the list has quieted down a bit, I thought I'd ask a question >that's been bugging me for a while: > >What exactly are AD&D kits, and where can I find rules for them? >Specifically, where can I find the kits which are most applicable to >Mystara? Its are expansions for classes. Hmmm..how do I explain this correctly... The kits can be used to give characters more style, and its a great help with roleplaying. I myself use kits only as an optional rule, but in some AD&D worlds (AlQuadim for example) the PCs will have to choose a kit. (thats as far as I got it from my DM...) Some good kits are the shwashbuckler, the veteran soldier, the Glantri Military Wizard, the Guild Rogue... >I'm interested because I've been formatting the excellent (and FREE!) >Savage Coast campaign setting documents from the TSR page, and I noticed >some "kits" which looked very interesting. Now I'm looking for a >complete set of kits for using in Mystara, in my D&D campaign - I think >they will make nice "background" bases for my D&D characters. (I don't >actually play AD&D, otherwise I presume I would know what these kit >things are and how to use them, though I do have the Player's and DM's >Guides. I couldn't find anything there about them.) > >Thank you kindly, > >Thorf. If you plan on making your own kits, look at the AD&D ones, and base them on them. I think that you can modify the AD&D ones for use with D&D with ease. Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:43:01 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) At 14:06 16-05-97 +0200, you wrote: >On Wed, 14 May 1997, David Melik wrote: > >> Maybe, but I wonder how many people actually consider **AD&D* >> *Chronomancer** as Mystara canon! :) > >Not me. Mainly because I never read it, but also because the paradoxes of >time travel makes my head dizzy :P I have read it, and some part are real strange. (I got that AD&D book) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 97 19:16:29 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Mystara] Manacapuru error Interesting, I seem to recall that at least one of Cestia's four kingdoms was populated by hostile pale-skinned inhabitants, who were displaced by the Oceanian refugees in ages past. Haldemar was warned that these people did not take kindly to foreigners, if my memory of that article is correct. IMC, I have made these people "uncorrupted" descendents of the Varellyans, who still practice some of the old rituals, but have otherwise devolved into a more savage state (and thus have all but forgotten their old homeland). Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:44:38 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) In a message dated 97-05-17 22:51:13 EDT, you write: << I know this wasn't directed at me, but from what I've heard I won't like Planescape as regards to Mystara, though it might be fun on its own. Chronomancer I've had my eye on for a wee while... does anyone have any advice on why or why not to buy it? Also, what is the Shaman supplement like? >> I love Planescape, and IMO it is great fun as a campaign setting. Marrying it with the Mystara setting takes quite a bit of work, and there are numerous different ways to do it. I am working on it for my campaign since I like both settings so much, but I haven't decided exactly how I want to go about it (Are Immortals equivalent to the Powers? Where are the D&D planes in the Planescape setup, etc) Chronomancer is also an excellent supplement. General opionion on the net (at least from what I've seen) is about 50/50. It seems you either love it or hate it :) I love it. But again, it takes work integrating it with Mystara as it has very different ideas about time travel then some Mystara products do (but intriguing ideas nonetheless). Shaman is a supplement similar to Chronomancer. It details several types of Shaman classes (priest classes) and offers a unique take on the Spirit World, new spells, all the standard goodies. TSR has at least three or four published versions of a Shaman class in AD&D, none of which are very compatible, and of them all I prefer the classes in this supplement. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:49:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Manacapuru error On Sun, 18 May 1997, Geoff Gander wrote: > Interesting, I seem to recall that at least one of Cestia's four > kingdoms was populated by hostile pale-skinned inhabitants, who were > displaced by the Oceanian refugees in ages past. True. Androkia (the southern kingdom) is the one with the displaced "true" Cestians- though I don't recall it mentioning anything about them being pale-skinned. That's why I postulated they were Tanagoro (given the proximity to the Pearl Islands), although it is entirely possible they could be Hinterlanders that migrated. > IMC, I have made these people "uncorrupted" descendents of the > Varellyans, who still practice some of the old rituals, but have > otherwise devolved into a more savage state (and thus have all but > forgotten their old homeland). > Yet another interesting theory. Given the date of the "fall" of Varellya- c. 600 AC- is it possible that the Varellyans are either Hinterlanders displaced by Milenian incursions into Davania, or are migrant Milenians who settled much further down the continent than most of their people? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:57:35 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Kits In a message dated 97-05-17 23:09:38 EDT, you write: << What exactly are AD&D kits, and where can I find rules for them? Specifically, where can I find the kits which are most applicable to Mystara? >> AD&D kits are an optional rule to expand and define the basic classes. They were first introduced in the "Complete Fighter's Handbook" (I think) and since then gazillions of them have been published in all sorts of AD&D rulebooks and supplements. The info on kits you have in the "Savage Coast" products should be enough for ya, don't go out and buy any of the "Complete . . ." series of handbooks. Basically, a character chooses one of the classes from the Player's Handbook, and then has the option of selecting a kit as well (although in some AD&D settings it is required to take a kit). The line between group (warrior), class (fighter, paladin, ranger), and kit (swashbuckler, myrmidon) is a bit fuzzy, unfortunately. In some products kits merely give the player suggestions for proficiencies to choose, with some minor advantages and disadvantages thrown in for color. In other products the kits are practically new classes and completely restructure the original class! (another fine example of TSR's knack for consistency!) In converting AD&D kits to D&D, I see two palatable options. You could just make each kit a new class unto itself (the "druidic defender" kit from "Savage Coast" is an AD&D update on the D&D "druidic paladin" class of Robrenn from the Princess Ark series). This is the approach that the later additions to the "Challenger" series of products took, but soon you have a gazillion classes to keep track of! Or you could adapt the kit idea itself to D&D. You're characters can only choose from the basic classes in the Rules Cyclopedia, and then they may optionally choose a kit to further define their character. Of course, I've done neither as I use the AD&D rules IMC! Just some ideas. You can find more Mystara AD&D kits in the two boxed sets released before "AD&D Mystara" did the belly flop. "Karameikos: Kindgom of Adventure" and "Glantri: Kingdom of Magic" both have kits, but I think they kinda suck (although the "balancer" druid is an interesting concept). Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:40:08 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] My Homepage Anyone who likes can check out my in-progress makeshift homepage at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1413/ . I'd love to get some feedback on it. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:25:52 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gylharen Half-elf? No, thank you... DM wrote: > " In the Alfheim gazetter it talks about those elves not knowing about an > half-elves. In a dragon magazine (the Eusdria one, IIRC) it details > half-elves but these are a special creation by Frey/Freyja. It states that > under normal circumstances that one gene is dominant over the other and that > you just don't get half-elves. The Alfheim gazetter goes into a bit more > detail about what the union of male/female elf/human combinations gives you. > Basically it seems that the only half-elves on Mystara are those created in > Eusdria which had their genetic makeup changed by immortals - otherwise they I would like to know about Eusdria? Anything you can tell I would like. Thanks, Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:27:18 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] History of Blackmoor Rob Rickard wrote: > > Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > > > Thanks Drew, but this isn't just the DA series material on Blackmoor, this is > > my own History of Mystara from 10,000 BC through 3000 BC, from the Rise of > > the Human Races to the Great Rain of Fire. It's something like nearly 30 > > pages of history in a story format. It also traces the "Technomantic" version > > of Blackmoor, in which there was a thousand years of development of > > technology and magic between the founding of Blackmoor and the GRoF... as > > it's rather long, I don't think I should post it as a letter (90,000+ KB's in > > TXT format). Anyone interested please email me and I'll send it out attached > > later... > > > > Mystaros I would also like a copy. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:40:00 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hyborea At 16.48 17/05/97 -0700, you wrote: > I've been working on my campaign's Hyborean region lately. I've used the >FR accessory FR14 - The Great Glacier quite a lot and I thought I'd share a >bit and see what everyone thought. As for the placement of this region, >I've tentatively put it northwest of Norwold. According to the maps i own (referring mainly to HW), Hyborea is the north westernmost tip of Brun, near the glacial line of the north pole and north of Sylvan Realm, on the other side of the continent. >HYBOREAN TIMELINE Not bad, but 2 things still mistify me: 1. who are the Gronne elders? 2. how much of the timeline was drawn from the adventure module and how much did u invent (specifically, which parts)? 3. where do you exactly place Hyborea? Near the great inland lake near the centre of Brun? No, impossible.. Then maybe it's near the great gulf in the north of Brun, just northwest of Norwold (as u wrote at the beginning)? If the latter is the right one, then you're place Hyborea in what is in fact Borea, the ancient Blackmoor cradle, and i don't think there would have been survivors living there just after the GRoF... Maybe they lived in Hyborea and then migrated to Borea, much like the Beastmen?? DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:23:00 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] DDA2 Legion of Thyatis and Varelya OK, since i've read some stuff that left me wondering, i'd like to ask those of you who know about these topics (Cthul is the wise one in this case, i think): 1. what's the adventure Legion of Thyatis about and it's worth buying? 2. who are the Varelyas? Are the anyhow connected with Nagpas? Thanx DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:01:00 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Eusdria At 01.25 19/05/97 -0400, Jay wrote: > >I would like to know about Eusdria? Anything you can tell I would like. > Eusdria is one of the domains of the Savage Coast, modeled after Charlemagne's Sacred Roman Empire or Kign Arthur's Camelot (that's the flavour i got at least). It's made up of honorbound fighters, bards and it is much like Karameikos, but more civilized and literate (hey, don't get offended people of Karameikos!;)) .. For more info refer to Red Steel campaign box or Savage Coast campaign book. DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:09:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hyborea In a message dated 97-05-19 03:51:06 EDT, you write: << If the latter is the right one, then you're place Hyborea in what is in fact Borea, the ancient Blackmoor cradle, and i don't think there would have been survivors living there just after the GRoF... Maybe they lived in Hyborea and then migrated to Borea, much like the Beastmen?? DM >> Well, DM, actually about half the people of this board believe that Blackmoor was on Skothar, not on Brun (I am one of those people). While some early evidence pointed to Blackmoor being on Brun (notably, DA1-4, which were written before most of Mystara and the Known World were developed, by people not familiar with the Known Wolrd), later evidence pointed to it being on Skothar (IMNSHO, the evidence pointing to Skothar takes precedent and is more logical, but we shan't get into that debate again, shall we :). Back to the old IMC vs. IYC thing again, no thanks... <> Well, the inside cover of the old Master DM's book points to Hyborea being the furthest north-western section of the continent; on the Outer-World Planetary Map, that would be the section north of the Arctic Circle and west of the Borean River, so tha'ts where Hyborea is "supposed" to be "officially". IMOC, I have placed several Beastmen kingdoms (Gog and Magog), and two Finnish kingdoms (Tuonar, Land of the Dead, and Pojaara, land of Queen Lovaara, who is a combination of the mythical Lovitar and Louhi). I also used the "Arctic Dwarves", placing them in the far north, along the coasts of the White Sea; I placed another "Finnish" kingdom, Kaarjala, in Norwold, between the two great northern rivers [Kaarjala was developed with the assistance of Amaldis from aol.com]. I've never read the Great Glacier supplement, so I don't know how that all really fits in. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:37:06 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] DDA2 Legion of Thyatis and Varelya On Mon, 19 May 1997, DM wrote: > 1. what's the adventure Legion of Thyatis about and it's worth buying? DDA2 details the plot of Wastoure, the Antalian mage, to corrupt Thyatian officials so that he can eventually rescue the Burrower known as Cipactli from the Hollow World. I don't recall much other than that, except that it is very free-form, and has a cool bit where the Players can take on the roles of judges and advocates in a big roleplaying trial of one of the Thyatian senators. It's good for background material, and is an interesting take on modules- as I noted, it is freeform. I've never actually run it, though. > 2. who are the Varelyas? Are the anyhow connected with Nagpas? Dragon Mag #158 or 157 (can't recall offhand). 160 is Myoshima, 158 is N'djatwa, so I guess it's 157. Varellya was the city state that was on the Vulture Peninsula, but a massive cataclysm struck (brought on by warring brothers) and transformed all of the inhabitants into Nagpa, including Abatu (remember him from X4?). So yes, there is a connection. :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:57:02 +1000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [Mystara] AOL stuff Hello Just a self-gratifying message to say that I have placed some AOL Mystara stuff on the latest update of my homepage. Enjoy. Also a little note to say see you in a couple of months or so. Shawn Stanley, Department of Geology, Australian National University. (s9406058@student.anu.edu.au) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:24:40 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Eusdria In a message dated 97-05-19 05:22:32 EDT, you write: << Eusdria is one of the domains of the Savage Coast, modeled after Charlemagne's Sacred Roman Empire or Kign Arthur's Camelot (that's the flavour i got at least). It's made up of honorbound fighters, bards and it is much like Karameikos, but more civilized and literate (hey, don't get offended people of Karameikos!;)) .. For more info refer to Red Steel campaign box or Savage Coast campaign book. >> Interesting. I got a somewhat different perspective from the Savage Coast products. I've always felt that the Eusdrians are much more Nordic. Their bards are known as skalds, which is a Norse term. I kinda prefer you're interp however, as we already have a Nordic culture in the Known World. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:42:12 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hyborea >1. who are the Gronne elders? Gronne is one of the oldest Iulutiun settlements. The residents are noted for their wisdom and insight. Representatives from other Iulutiun villages often petition the Gronne elders to help settle disputes and evaluate civic proposals. They are not magical or mystical...they are sort of like the Darokin Diplomatic Corp - sort of... >2. how much of the timeline was drawn from the adventure module and how much >did u invent (specifically, which parts)? The only parts I've changed were names of people and places - and of course the "standard" Mystaran timeline stuff (ie. the Great Rain of Fire, the Crowning of Thyatis, etc.) Oh one other change...the device that the artic dwarves found was actually just a catapult - but that was a little too boring to me ;) >3. where do you exactly place Hyborea? Near the great inland lake near the >centre of Brun? No, impossible.. Then maybe it's near the great gulf in the >north of Brun, just northwest of Norwold (as u wrote at the beginning)? If >the latter is the right one, then you're place Hyborea in what is in fact >Borea, the ancient Blackmoor cradle, and i don't think there would have been >survivors living there just after the GRoF... Maybe they lived in Hyborea >and then migrated to Borea, much like the Beastmen?? Okay, I've thought about it and looked closer at my Mystaran maps - here is where I place Hyborea: There are mountains that discourage contact with the outside world. The Ulutiuns refer to them as saas, meaning "shields." The Western Shield (Tuutsaas - the northern-most part of the Endworld Line Mountains) is the longest and tallest of these protective chains, separating Hyborea from the Sea of Brun over a length of 1,200 miles. The Tuutsaas Chain merges with the sheer slopes of the Southern Shield (Lugsaas), while on the opposite border, the Eastern Shield (Angsaas) rises between Hyborea and the White Sea. Therefore, I put my Hyborea in that northernmost neck of land on Brun. For those with the Rules Cyclopedia, it covers most of the artic land shown on the Mystaran world map in the back. Just so you all know, I haven't measured distances yet so it might accidentally overlap somewhere. IMHO Hyborea is supposed to be large, forbidding and hard to get to. I belive that under all the ice and snow are remains of many Blackmoor devices. I put Blackmoor inbetween Brun and Skothar (not to reopen THAT debate ::grin::) so to me it makes sense. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:48:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hyborea On Mon, 19 May 1997, S.B. Wilson wrote: > Therefore, I put my Hyborea in that northernmost neck of land on Brun. > For those with the Rules Cyclopedia, it covers most of the artic land > shown on the Mystaran world map in the back. Just so you all know, I > haven't measured distances yet so it might accidentally overlap > somewhere. IMHO Hyborea is supposed to be large, forbidding and hard to > get to. I belive that under all the ice and snow are remains of many > Blackmoor devices. I put Blackmoor inbetween Brun and Skothar (not to > reopen THAT debate ::grin::) so to me it makes sense. Just going from memory here, but... Isn't that area close to the Sylvan Realm? If so, do the two territories have any overlap or contact? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:39:54 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hyborea >> Therefore, I put my Hyborea in that northernmost neck of land on Brun. >> For those with the Rules Cyclopedia, it covers most of the artic land >> shown on the Mystaran world map in the back. Just so you all know, I >> haven't measured distances yet so it might accidentally overlap >> somewhere. IMHO Hyborea is supposed to be large, forbidding and hard to >> get to. I belive that under all the ice and snow are remains of many >> Blackmoor devices. I put Blackmoor inbetween Brun and Skothar (not to >> reopen THAT debate ::grin::) so to me it makes sense. > >Just going from memory here, but... Isn't that area close to the Sylvan >Realm? If so, do the two territories have any overlap or contact? I'm not exactly sure where the Sylvan Realm is located, but you're right...it's really close. I don't think exact locations were given, so I'd put the Sylvan Realm south (or southwest) of Hyborea. I haven't read through the Tree of Life adventure for a long time so I'm not too sure what the situation in the area is...but I doubt there would be much contact from anybody with Hyborea. Hyborea would probably be "commonly perceived as an unihabitable, useless ice field, [with] little contact between the Ulutiuns and their outlying neighbors." (taken from the Great Glacier accessory) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:25:30 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Hyborea and the Sylvan Realm According to CM7 and the maps so far edited, the Sylvan Realm is now surrounded by humans and humanoids and it's placed on the west coast of Brun. So i think it is likely that it's near Hyborea, only far to the south, for the temperatures must not be that cold for elves to enjoy living there (otherwise they could have all moved to Glantri as part of the original Ilsundal's migration did) I'd place it between the 40° and 50° parallel DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 04:51:12 -0400 From: Hervé MUSSEAU Subject: [Mystara] Mystara FAQ v3.0 Mystara FAQ version 3.0 by Hervé Musseau Q: What is Mystara? A: Mystara is an imaginary world created by TSR as a campaign world for roleplaying games using the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. Q: What is a roleplaying game? A: Roleplaying games are games in which people play the role of imaginary fantastic characters like warriors or wizards and try to complete an adventure under the guidance of a game master. Q: I never heard of Mystara, but I know a setting called the Known World which looks pretty the same. What's the difference? A: Mystara got a name as a world only recently; before that, it was often referred to as the Known World, although Mystara is more than just the Known World. Q: So, what's Mystara? The Known World and what else? A: Mystara is basically composed of 2 main parts, the Outer World and the Hollow World, plus 2 moons, and some other exotic settings. Q: A Hollow World? A: Yes. Mystara, unlike our earth, is hollow, an empty sphere. It has an internal sun that lights the interior world, making it inhabitable. It holds old civilizations that are now extinct on the Outer World, placed there by the Immortals with strong magic preventing them from evolving much or dying away. The only entrances to the Hollow World are through underground passages between the two worlds, and through the holes that stand in place of the north and south poles. Q: And the Outer World? A: The Outer World is mostly like our Earth. It comprises: - - the Known World, where the most civilized countries are located, - - Alphatia, - - the Savage Coast and Hule, - - the southern continent, called Davania, - - the eastern continent, called Skothar. Q: On the continental map published in the Master DM's book, there are some empires I've never read anything about in other products and on the list, like the Empire of Dorphin IV or the Empire of the Great Khan. Do they exist? Where can I find information about these? A: The map in the Master set is wrong, wrong, wrong. In the series of articles written by Bruce Heard in Dragon Magazine, the first in the series (Dragon #153) explains this all. The map was the was released by a very imaginative Thyatian, and wrongly accepted for the truth. There is no Empire of Dorphin IV, no Empire of the Great Khan, etc. Also, as you probably guessed, the size of the Thyatian Empire was also largely exagerated on this map... Q: I've already heard from the Known World, and from the Hollow World too, but never as Mystara. What does all this mean? A: This is because Mystara is a very old world, one of the oldest created by TSR, and, as TSR grew, so did Mystara. All of these product lines are revelant to Mystara: - - Mystara, of course, - - the Known World and most stuff that were made for D&D (as opposed to AD&D) like these old good modules B and X, or the Gazetteers, - - the Hollow World, - - Red Steel/the Savage Coast, - - Blackmoor. Also, some products bearing the label First Quest are related to Mystara. Q: Blackmoor? I know a Blackmoor, but it's part of Greyhawk, isn't it? A: Blackmoor was, like Greyhawk, the campaign world of one of TSR's founder. It was later placed in both Greyhawk and the Known World (as a past kingdom in the later), effectively making two Blackmoors exist. It seems there is no relation between the two Blackmoors, however, although some people made the assumption. Q: Where is it located? A: Blackmoor was a techno-magical kingdom that blew itself up a few millenia ago. The event shifted the planet's axis and Blackmoor is now the north pole. Sources are contradictory as to where Blackmoor stand; some place it on Brun, some on Skothar. Arguments in favor of Brun are the position of the Inn Between the Worlds and the Nucleus of the Sphere, and the fact that the Known World stands there; this is the solution proposed in some Gazetteers. Arguments in favor of Skothar are its sort of canonical status, and the feeling that all civilizations should not systamatically come from the Known World; this is the solution proposed in the Hollow World box. Note that, if you consider the Hollow World solution to be the truth in your campaign, the map in the box does have a typo : the names of Blackmoor and Thonia have been reversed (Blackmoor was north of the Empire of Thonia according to all other sources). Bruce Heard's opinion on this matter : << Blackmoor -- the travelling legend. If there were archaeologist on Mystara, they would have a devil of time figuring where the darn place was really located. Officially, it's supposed to be up there by the Thonian Marches. Unfortunately, conflicting info has crept into several products, getting in the way of the Thonian theory. The best thing is to assume evidence of Blackmoor's presence elsewhere is the result of later colonizations and outposts. Other communities were also magically displaced (such as a certain ancient tavern in the Broken Lands of the Known World). Definitely a messy development of the World of Mystara! :) >> So officially the answer is Skothar. Q: Ok, and now what's Red Steel? A: Red Steel is a setting that is part of Mystara (west of the Known World), although it was released as a stand-alone setting. Q: I have a player of the Church of Karameikos, and I whant to give him an Immortal, I suppose that it's a church with many Immortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in Gaz 1 I dind't find any list of Inmortals... A: These are the immortals of the Church of Karameikos, as told by Bruce Heard in an old Dragon Magazine: Asterius (Eternal of Thought), Leader Kagyar (Eternal of Matter) Ilsundal (Hierarch of Thought) Valerias (Hierarch of Matter) Vanya (Empyreal of Time). Also, although Chardastes is a native Traladaran Immortal, he is venerated through the auspices of the Church of Karameikos, not the Church of Traladara. This is extrapolated from info in B1-9 In Search of Adventure. The Immortals of the Church of Traladara are: Halav Petra Zirchev. Q: You spoke of Immortals, what are they? Are they Gods? A: Mystara has a different pantheon when compared to other D&D settings. Most notably, it has no gods, but beings called Immortals. Immortals are mortals who, through their deeds, have reached a higher status granting them more power than mere mortals. Basically, however, Immortals are not very different from Gods of other settings. Q: Also you mentionned something about D&D not being AD&D. What does that mean? A: Mystara was the world designed to be used with the rules of D&D (often called OD&D to better distinct it from AD&D and from the generic term D&D which could mean both; OD&D stands for Old D&D or Original D&D). It appeared in the old boxed rules: the Expert box, the Companion box and the Master box. Most of the earlier modules designed for D&D were set in this world. Recently, however, Mystara has been converted to AD&D (along with Red Steel), but many people who play in Mystara do it with the old rules (or their reedition, Rules Cyclopedia). Q: When I read stuff about Mystara I keep seeing acronyms I cannot understand like WotI or PWA. What do they mean? A: There is a list of Mystara relevant acronyms at http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh. Q: I heard that the Mystara line was cancelled. Is this true? A: It is unfortunately true. And Red Steel is cancelled too. Some novels pertaining to Mystara may be released as part of the First Quest line, and modules may be part of the Odyssey line. AFAIK, there is no such products in preparation however. Joshuan's Almanach was the last product of Mystara (to be precise the novel "The Black Vessel" has been released after, and to be even more precise it deals with the Savage Coast) and the Savages Baronies the last of Red Steel (except for online exclusives). Q: But I saw in TSR's preview that there would be Red Steel modules released as online exclusive. What does this mean? A: TSR will release these modules for free on its site of MPGN at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com and on AOL and GEnie. Q: So, if TSR has dropped the line, how can I get new material for Mystara? A: There are many people on the web who love Mystara and have taken upon themselves to keep Mystara alive (and well alive). There is a mailing list dedicated to Mystara where people discuss together about it, exchanging ideas, points of view, and more. To subscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@io.com. In the body, have the single line: subscribe Mystara-L . There are also many pages around the net dedicated to Mystara, sometimes with lots of interesting materials. The pages I am aware of are: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh Herve's HomePage the homepage of the writer of this FAQ http://www.io.com/~oryon/mysthome.htm The Mystara Mailing List Home Page http://moray.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/%7Eknight/mystara/index.html Knight's Mystara Homepage new material http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/diary Fabrizio's Mystara Homepage diary of a Shadow Elf http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/ Lord Estlor's Mystara Page new material http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ Shawn's Mystara Site articles collected from the mailing-list http://www.miniworld.com/adnd/ Dungeon and Dragons Section Toowin's travels and Madame Aleksandra's horiscopes http://www.angelfire.com/pg7/HL/index.html The High Legion Clan campaign presentation http://www.geocities.com/Area51/4090/index.html The Druid's Grove druidic information http://www.angelfire.com/pages0/redwolf/index.html Mystaran Almanac I, by Red Wolf http://www.spherenet.com/fmt/kat-path/mystara.html Kat's Mystara page (in French) http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/7296/Mystara.html RimX's Mystara page http://www.angelfire.com/id/Mikes/Mystara.html Mouse's Mystara page http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2426/index.html Thothian Escarpment Encounter table http://www.angelfire.com/fl/NickusGemeye/index.html Nickus Gemeye's Hut http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4991/index.html Cantrip the Chaotic's Home Page http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/1466/Lucin.html Lucin's Goods a store in the Minrothad Guilds http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/2843/index.html Castle Kalamonia http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs/rollen.html#myst Mystara and Diplomacy (in German) ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/ Mystara at MPGN ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/SavageCoast/ Savage Coast at MPGN http://www.tsrinc.com TSR's official homepage http://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~msphil/fnn/ The FNN Adventurer's Journal ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/mailing-lists/mystara-digest/ archive of the Mystara-digest http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8315/ Loup-rouge's homepage http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8264/ Ivanov's Homepage (in Spanish) http://www.geocities.com/Area51/2524/mystara.html Hawk's Home Page. Information on an IRC Mystara campaign. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4206/ The Principality of Mysteria http://members.aol.com/XDeum/legion.html Castle Misha. Part of the High Legion Clan. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html Alan's Dungeon Master Tools http://gumby.une.edu.au/dnd/ The Gumby Dungeons and Dragons homepage Q: Where can I find a complete list of the material published for Mystara? A: The most complete lists to my knowledge are at http://moray.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/mystara/prodlist.html (I think it is almost a complete one except for the most recent products) and in the digests of the mml. Also check TSR's list of products at http://members.aol.com/tsrinc/products.html. Q: And where can I buy it? A: Since the Mystara line is out of print, it is difficult to find them. If you're lucky you can find them in any shop that sells RPG stuff, or buy second-hand books. Places where you can find Mystara stuff on the web : http://www.dragontrove.com/listing.html the newsgroup rec.games.frp.marketplace. Q: Where can I find the FAQ for the Mystara mailing list? A: Check at http://www.io.com/~oryon/mmlfaq.htm. AFAIK there is no plain text version of this FAQ. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #80 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #81 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, May 21 1997 Volume 02 : Number 081 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 11:48:42 -0700 From: "Dr. Cyence" Subject: [Mystara] Order in creation! Hi everyone. Being fairly new in the art of creating my own campaigns and adventures, I have a great deal of trouble keeping notes, events, character information (in short: the whole thing!) from being mixed up. The few adventures I have made took part in Karameikos and another in the Red Steel setting. I enjoy the thrill of improvisation as much as anyone, but if I should run the adventures once more, I'd be in trouble, because my notes are spread out on hundreds ;-) of little papers and back of other pages. I wonder if someone on this list follow specific guidelines when creating adventures, and in that case, would you mind sharing them? How do you organize stuff both before and after creating your adventures? I am really looking forward to see some interesting replies. Martin Johansen, Odense, Denmark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:05:35 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] Order in creation! Aaron Alston wrote an AD&D product called the Dungeon Master's Design Guide. I heartily recommend it for the type of questions you ask. It is out of print (like all the "good" stuff ;P) so must be purchased from the used RPG stuff vendors. >Hi everyone. > >Being fairly new in the art of creating my own campaigns and adventures, >I have a great deal of trouble keeping notes, events, character >information (in short: the whole thing!) from being mixed up. The few >adventures I have made took part in Karameikos and another in the Red >Steel setting. >I enjoy the thrill of improvisation as much as anyone, but if I should >run the adventures once more, I'd be in trouble, because my notes are >spread out on hundreds ;-) of little papers and back of other pages. > >I wonder if someone on this list follow specific guidelines when >creating adventures, and in that case, would you mind sharing them? >How do you organize stuff both before and after creating your >adventures? > >I am really looking forward to see some interesting replies. > > >Martin Johansen, > >Odense, Denmark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:20:39 -0400 From: Urklore The Iron Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Netbook Besides the stuff TSR has reduced, has there ever been a Mystara Netbook? ************************************************************************ * Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord * * Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) * * Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord * * Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the NetHOARD, Keeper of 79 RPG Systems * * Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling * * Hot Chocolate King, "Welcome", "You've got Mail", ROBOTECH Master * * Official Tiac "SENIOR" Customer Support/Web Team Employee! * * Muad'dib Disciple, "Predacons TERRORIZE!" "Maximals MAXIMIZE!" * * "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" * * "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." * * "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" UNIX Neophyte * * "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never ever lie * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:43:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks Form: Memo Text: (21 lines follow) <> Yes. There were 4 different netMAGs produced - 3 by me and 1 by Amaldis@aol.com. They are available from the TSR forum for those of you with AOL access. For those of you without it, I plan to try and put together my own (very first!) web page this weekend. It will probably be pretty crude, but I do intend to upload my 3 netMAGs. The first was pretty minor, but the 3rd & 4th (my next two) include numerous excerpts from the Mystara discussion boards on AOL, including some of the better stuff from TYGHOCK and Mystaros. I will post something to this list after I've checked out my download site and let everyone know. LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:37:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hello? Congrats man. You go out and get yourself access to the net, and rejoin this list :) On Wed, 14 May 1997, Aron Reif wrote: > At 11:35 PM 5/13/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Hello? Is anyone out there? > > > >There seems to be little traffic on the list right now... save for the very > >interesting timeline of Wendar by Stan and Marco (which I am still > >consuming...). That's the kind of stuff I love to see! > > > > well, I'm here, but not for long. I graduated on Saturday, and I'm about to > move out on my own. Got a job with the U.S. Gov't in Washington, D.C. > Until I get a new email account, I'm afraid I'll be away from the list. In > case I don't make it back, it's been nice chattin' with all you guys (and > girls too). Thanx for lettin' me be a part of something like this. > > Be seeing you all around... > > Aron Reif > areif@vt.edu (although not much longer) > Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:40:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... On Thu, 15 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > As I see it, RPGs will never "die" unless we stop playing them. I am > pretty sure I will never tire of the D&D world - and I still support the > "fun" of the D&D game system over other supposedly more "advanced" > systems... particularly the Storyteller system is heralded here as being > great (I personally can't stand any game set in the "real world", and > since I also have an aversion - as well as total lack of knowledge of - > guns, they just don't appeal to me. My DMs always complain: "But you > can't *only* have a sword, you'll die in seconds when someone shoots you > with his PK-47 assault rifle!"). Also thought to be good (and here I > actually agree for a change) is the Star Wars "D6" system. I have > numerous times thought about grafting bits of Star Wars rules into D&D. > Perhaps replacing the skill system, for instance. There is a system called Moon Wars available on Web. It is made for using starWars RPG with the fantasy world Glorantha, but could easily be used with Mystara as well. I dont have the URL right now, but I could get it if anyone is interested. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:52:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Fri, 16 May 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > Any other ideas for names of Entrophic planes? Im looking specifically for > > something hell-like for Thanatos' Homeplane. > > How about- "AAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!" > > :) Isn't that where the Castle of Aaaargh is located? :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:51:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Tartarus On Fri, 16 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > >Any other ideas for names of Entrophic planes? Im looking specifically for > >something hell-like for Thanatos' Homeplane. > > Tartarus? (The Roman/Greek equivalent of Hell - at least sort of) Does anyone know what Tartarus was like? I know it was below the underworld, It was also where the Titans were bannished and it was probably not a nice place. > Thorf. (No, Thorf was not an idea for a name. ;-) Probably not :) Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 97 13:18:17 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Re: Varellya > > True. Androkia (the southern kingdom) is the one with the displaced > "true" Cestians- though I don't recall it mentioning anything about them > being pale-skinned. That's why I postulated they were Tanagoro (given the > proximity to the Pearl Islands), although it is entirely possible they > could be Hinterlanders that migrated. > > > IMC, I have made these people "uncorrupted" descendents of the > > Varellyans, who still practice some of the old rituals, but have > > otherwise devolved into a more savage state (and thus have all but > > forgotten their old homeland). > > > Yet another interesting theory. Given the date of the "fall" of Varellya- > c. 600 AC- is it possible that the Varellyans are either Hinterlanders > displaced by Milenian incursions into Davania, or are migrant Milenians > who settled much further down the continent than most of their people? Hmm...interesting question. The migration map in the HW supplement shows Milenians migrating to the region that would one day become Varellya several hundred years ago (I'll have to check on the date), but even if this were true, how could a vibrant, distinct culture arise in so short a time? Myself, I am inclined to believe that early Hinterlanders migrated to the region, and were then joined by later Hinterlanders displaced by the Milenians. These two waves fused, and a new dialect of the Hinterlander tongue was born. Some decades later, Milenian dissidents/pioneers/explorers came upon this growing civilization, and sought refuge among them. These new migrants added their lore and language to the already growing mix (by this time some Oceanian settlers may have come upon the Varellyans) - the result being the creation of the Varellyan language and culture, a people truly a product of their environment. This is only a preliminary examination, I'll write up a proper timeline for the group later this week. Geoff> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:34:21 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Hollow World 1015 Hey everyone, I will shortly be starting to work out the Hollow World events for AC 1015, and I need a "command crew" ;-) to help me out. I already have one or two people, so a few more would be nice. Anyone who is interested in helping, or who doesn't want to or doesn't have the time but does have some cool ideas, feel free to e-mail me (my address is Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk). Help with events, ideas for events and just little requests are all welcome. Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:17:28 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] CM7: The Tree of Life Hi, For years I've been looking out for that module, and I still haven't been able to get it. Now that I know of some internet places to get stuff I'll probably be able to get it this summer, but right now I'd like to ask some questions about it. First: what exactly are the consequences of the adventure? From GAZ5 it seems that the Sylvan Realm exists once more. Are there still elves there? What about the original Tree of Life? Does the adventure have a date indicating when it happens? I assume the answer is no, in which case should it happen in a future Almanac? Any information would be most helpful. Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:22:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Shamans On Sun, 18 May 1997 Delarius(BZuber5988@aol.com) wrote: > Shaman is a supplement similar to Chronomancer. It details several types of > Shaman classes (priest classes) and offers a unique take on the Spirit World, > new spells, all the standard goodies. TSR has at least three or four > published versions of a Shaman class in AD&D, none of which are very > compatible, and of them all I prefer the classes in this supplement. It is a great supplement. I can easily be used to substitute the shamans of Ethengar and the Shamani of the Athruagin Clans. Also if the Traladarans practice Hero worship as would be appropriate(Mystaros' postings would support this too), there are rules for Hero spirits there. Also, Ancestor Worship would be appropriate in the Northern Reaches and in MChina(!) The Shaman Class could be changed into OD&D without too much difficulty, but keep in mind that clerics(Shamans are modified clerics) are slightly more powerful in AD&D. One thing I didn't like was the statement that spirits are not real, but creations of belief. Rather I'd like spirits to be dependent on followers like immortals are. I think spirits should be more important in mystara. The Spirit World Should it be considiered an Outer Plane or another Dimension? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:10:05 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Tue, 20 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> Tartarus? (The Roman/Greek equivalent of Hell - at least sort of) > >Does anyone know what Tartarus was like? I know it was below the >underworld, It was also where the Titans were bannished and it was >probably not a nice place. Well... it wasn't a very nice place, but I'm not sure what it was supposed to be like physically. I do know a few stories about it though, and I'm sure you do too. There was a man called Ixion, for a start. I can't remember what he did, but as a punishment he was fixed to a burning wheel. This is interesting because in D&D Ixion is an Immortal whose symbol is a burning wheel... Some D&D designers obviously have a strong sense of irony... There is also a man who has to push a boulder up a hill for eternity, then when he gets to the top he fumbles and it rolls right back down. Finally there is a man who fed his son to the gods in an act of defiance to show his power over them. They exiled him to Tartarus surrounded by glorious foods and drinks which he could never quite reach (I think), with an unquenchable thirst and hunger. Tartarus seems to be much more personal than just Hell, having completely different locales depending on the person being punished. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:10:05 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Tue, 20 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> Tartarus? (The Roman/Greek equivalent of Hell - at least sort of) > >Does anyone know what Tartarus was like? I know it was below the >underworld, It was also where the Titans were bannished and it was >probably not a nice place. Well... it wasn't a very nice place, but I'm not sure what it was supposed to be like physically. I do know a few stories about it though, and I'm sure you do too. There was a man called Ixion, for a start. I can't remember what he did, but as a punishment he was fixed to a burning wheel. This is interesting because in D&D Ixion is an Immortal whose symbol is a burning wheel... Some D&D designers obviously have a strong sense of irony... There is also a man who has to push a boulder up a hill for eternity, then when he gets to the top he fumbles and it rolls right back down. Finally there is a man who fed his son to the gods in an act of defiance to show his power over them. They exiled him to Tartarus surrounded by glorious foods and drinks which he could never quite reach (I think), with an unquenchable thirst and hunger. Tartarus seems to be much more personal than just Hell, having completely different locales depending on the person being punished. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:17:28 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] CM7: The Tree of Life Hi, For years I've been looking out for that module, and I still haven't been able to get it. Now that I know of some internet places to get stuff I'll probably be able to get it this summer, but right now I'd like to ask some questions about it. First: what exactly are the consequences of the adventure? From GAZ5 it seems that the Sylvan Realm exists once more. Are there still elves there? What about the original Tree of Life? Does the adventure have a date indicating when it happens? I assume the answer is no, in which case should it happen in a future Almanac? Any information would be most helpful. Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:35:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] CM7: The Tree of Life On Tue, 20 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > First: what exactly are the consequences of the adventure? From GAZ5 it > seems that the Sylvan Realm exists once more. Are there still elves > there? What about the original Tree of Life? Yes, there are elves there still, as well as the original ToL (provided it is saved. ;) The ultimate consequence would be that the Feadiel elves are once again welcome in the Sylvan Realm, and that the elves there could begin to rebuild their kingdom. > Does the adventure have a date indicating when it happens? I assume the > answer is no, in which case should it happen in a future Almanac? No, no date. I think as a general principle, dates on adventures are avoided, as they can otherwise be run anytime, whatsoever. Only in a few cases, such as X9 and X6 and X10, where the events are major consequences or else provide information that would be counter to current information on an area, is a date provided, in general. Not that it doesn't mean we can't put a date on it, though. :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:00:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Order in creation! On Thu, 1 May 1997, Dr. Cyence wrote: > Hi everyone. > > Being fairly new in the art of creating my own campaigns and adventures, > I have a great deal of trouble keeping notes, events, character > information (in short: the whole thing!) from being mixed up. The few > adventures I have made took part in Karameikos and another in the Red > Steel setting. > I enjoy the thrill of improvisation as much as anyone, but if I should > run the adventures once more, I'd be in trouble, because my notes are > spread out on hundreds ;-) of little papers and back of other pages. > > I wonder if someone on this list follow specific guidelines when > creating adventures, and in that case, would you mind sharing them? > How do you organize stuff both before and after creating your > adventures? Hallo! Nice seeing more scandinavian people on the list! :) A computer is a key word here. Since you have internet access, I assume you have a computer. That is the easiest way of collecting your notes in one place. The idea of a Chronologer is an interesting one. I read about this in an issue of Dragon (a mag. that seems to be getting less interesting every minute since they stopped having Mystara material there). This is one of the players who is responsible for keeping track of the campaign story. He can write a summary of each adventure after a night of gaming. The next time you game he can retell the story to remind everyone of whats going on. My group has never used this concept, but I find it interesting and I am considering vounteering to be the chronicler in one of the campaigns I am a player in. Even If you dont want to use the Chronicler, it may be a good Idea to write a short summary of each adventure. Hope this helps :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 97 21:11:54 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] Order in creation! Martin Johansen wrote ..., << I wonder if someone on this list follow specific guidelines when creating adventures, and in that case, would you mind sharing them? How do you organize stuff both before and after creating your adventures? I am really looking forward to see some interesting replies. >> Crumbs where to start ... First I always have some paper with me so that ideas that strike a chord can be noted down. This includes journeys to work on the London Underground (3.5 hours a day :-( ). This is a good place to spot characters, unusual actions striking faces etc. as well as just thinking. Holidays are good as well, strange Cornish coves, castles ruins and isolated farmhouses are also places where my mind starts to tick over. I always carry a camera to capture some of these places for later use. Books, books and more books (you can get through a lot in 3.5 hours a day!). Not just D&D ones but sci-fi, non-fiction (e.g. National Geographic) detective fiction (check out Lindsay Davies' stuff for Thyatian based adventures!) again notes get made. Music as well can summon up ideas. Also I listen to what my PC's are saying what they want to do what they 'think' is happening to them . All these notes get typed into my PC under brief headings and possible plot lines. Then when I need an idea I start fleshing one of these out. Sometimes several will run together and an adventure starts to take form. I then tend to use a standard form for my adventures with location or time lines with lots of 'what if' type clauses. Maps I either draw by hand or with Campaign Cartographer. These all get put into a folder with photocopies of the most commonly used pages from the Rules Cyclopedia, my critical hits table and I'm ready to go. I know this has turned into more of a where do I get my ideas from but there you go, it's been a long day! What ever you do, have fun, and remember the golden rule - there are no rules! Trimus D'Alberon http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:10:05 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Tue, 20 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> Tartarus? (The Roman/Greek equivalent of Hell - at least sort of) > >Does anyone know what Tartarus was like? I know it was below the >underworld, It was also where the Titans were bannished and it was >probably not a nice place. Well... it wasn't a very nice place, but I'm not sure what it was supposed to be like physically. I do know a few stories about it though, and I'm sure you do too. There was a man called Ixion, for a start. I can't remember what he did, but as a punishment he was fixed to a burning wheel. This is interesting because in D&D Ixion is an Immortal whose symbol is a burning wheel... Some D&D designers obviously have a strong sense of irony... There is also a man who has to push a boulder up a hill for eternity, then when he gets to the top he fumbles and it rolls right back down. Finally there is a man who fed his son to the gods in an act of defiance to show his power over them. They exiled him to Tartarus surrounded by glorious foods and drinks which he could never quite reach (I think), with an unquenchable thirst and hunger. Tartarus seems to be much more personal than just Hell, having completely different locales depending on the person being punished. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:53:44 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Varellya In a message dated 97-05-20 18:12:39 EDT, you write: << The migration map in the HW supplement shows Milenians migrating to the region that would one day become Varellya several hundred years ago (I'll have to check on the date), but even if this were true, how could a vibrant, distinct culture arise in so short a time? >> That's enough time in the real world, so why not in a fantasy world where you can do whatever you want anyway? Columbus opened up the New World to Europe (he did not, of course, "discover" it) about 500 years ago, and we have a several vibrant Hispanic, Latin, and Afro-Carib cultures that have developed in the interim. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:03:15 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Achelos Adventure in W. Karameikos Hi everyone. A couple months ago I sent my description of society in the Cruth Lowlands of Western Karameikos to the list. I am almost done detailing an idea for a major adventure to help rectify the problems which exist between the Thyatians and Traladarans in this area. It involves the immortal Chardastes and much of the stuff described in my setting descriotion, including the magic army used to defeat the Traladarans during the conqest by Thyatis in 900 AC (would you believe the magic army is actually an artifact created by Chardastes for this very purpose?) Anyway, when I first posted this setting, there was some interest, and I was wondering if anyone was interested in seeing the more-detailed adventure. If so, let me know:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:50:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Varellya On Tue, 20 May 1997 BZuber5988@aol.com wrote: (In response to the question of time and the development of Varellyan culture) > That's enough time in the real world, so why not in a fantasy world where you > can do whatever you want anyway? Columbus opened up the New World to Europe > (he did not, of course, "discover" it) about 500 years ago, and we have a > several vibrant Hispanic, Latin, and Afro-Carib cultures that have developed > in the interim. I don't think Varellyan culture is that much different from Milenian culture, anyway. There isn't much info given on it, that I recall. I think it can be adapted pretty well, probably. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:52:20 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Tue, 20 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > Tartarus seems to be much more personal than just Hell, having > completely different locales depending on the person being punished. Haven't read Dante's _Inferno_, have you? ;) Talk about your personal Hells... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:57:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] CM7: The Tree of Life In a message dated 97-05-20 18:48:16 EDT, Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) writes: << Does the adventure have a date indicating when it happens? I assume the answer is no, in which case should it happen in a future Almanac? >> Given that the adventure begins in Alfheim, it should definitely predate the fall of Alfheim to the Shadow Elves. In fact, I would prefer to play it that way as it gives a third escape route to the Alfheim Elves. once it has been played out. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:19:21 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: [Mystara] Re: Azcotica Does anyone know or has anyone worked on the circumstances and timeline by which Azcotica became king of the Azcan Empire? The descriptions in the almanacs are a bit vague. Also, I think this has been asked before, but does anyone have any good computerized maps of mystara? Nicholas Bambakidis, MD (officially graduated last weekend!) nbamba@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:36:08 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Achelos Adventure in W. Karameikos On Tue, 20 May 1997, Patrick wrote: > A couple months ago I sent my description of society in the Cruth Lowlands > of Western Karameikos to the list. I am almost done detailing an idea for > a major adventure to help rectify the problems which exist between the > Thyatians and Traladarans in this area. It involves the immortal > Chardastes and much of the stuff described in my setting descriotion, > including the magic army used to defeat the Traladarans during the conqest > by Thyatis in 900 AC (would you believe the magic army is actually an > artifact created by Chardastes for this very purpose?) > > Anyway, when I first posted this setting, there was some interest, and I > was wondering if anyone was interested in seeing the more-detailed > adventure. If so, let me know:) You can send it my way, Patrick. :) Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:04:28 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > On Thu, 15 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > > with his PK-47 assault rifle!"). Also thought to be good (and here I > > actually agree for a change) is the Star Wars "D6" system. I have > > numerous times thought about grafting bits of Star Wars rules into D&D. > > Perhaps replacing the skill system, for instance. The D&D system it's great because it's SIMPLE...you can make a new rule in somes seconds, and take that as an standart. It's very simple to memorize and to learn... I don't think it's "realistic"... it's more a system than lets you become a GREAT and POWERFULL heroic warrior, so you don't will be killed by a one-eyed Kobold, at least a Big Red Dragon... I don't like the SW system, because the "dificulty" of a task it's imposed by the DM... I prefer the systems with more mathematicals based results like the percentile... so IMO th best RPG system it's the RuneQuest one (Chtulhu, Aquelarre...) - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:13:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus Thorfinn Tait pontificated: > > Well... it wasn't a very nice place, but I'm not sure what it was > supposed to be like physically. I do know a few stories about it > though, and I'm sure you do too. IIRC, Tartarus is a river of fire, surrending an area of Hades where sinner gets punished. I have the impression that it is pretty much the typical hell, dark and gloomy. I also vaguely remember there is a big gate that seperates the place from rest of the Hades, but my Greek myth is very rusty, so don't quote me on that. (there got to be someone on the list that is well read in Greek myth, right?) > > Some D&D designers obviously have a strong sense of > irony... Or jumbled up the myth again :) > Finally there is a man who fed his son to the gods in an act of defiance > to show his power over them. They exiled him to Tartarus surrounded by > glorious foods and drinks which he could never quite reach (I think), > with an unquenchable thirst and hunger. His name is Tantalus, I think. There are grapes and water that recede away from him as he reaches for them. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:42:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Tue, 20 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > > > Any other ideas for names of Entrophic planes? Im looking specifically for > > > something hell-like for Thanatos' Homeplane. > > > > How about- "AAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!" > > Isn't that where the Castle of Aaaargh is located? I believe so. I think Thanatos hid the Holy Grail away there... "Surely he didn't write, "AAAAUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHH?" Of course, there are those who call Thanatos... Tim? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:49:26 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Order in creation! On Tue, 20 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Nice seeing more scandinavian people on the list! :) I agree wholeheartedly! ;-) >A computer is a key word here. Since you have internet access, I assume >you have a computer. That is the easiest way of collecting your notes in >one place. Yes, computers are great for organising. They also have the bonus (or not) that it's hard(er) to "jot down" incoherent thoughts. >The idea of a Chronologer is an interesting one. I read about this in an >issue of Dragon (a mag. that seems to be getting less interesting every >minute since they stopped having Mystara material there). >This is one of the players who is responsible for keeping track of the >campaign story. He can write a summary of each adventure after a night of >gaming. The next time you game he can retell the story to remind everyone >of whats going on. My group has never used this concept, but I find it >interesting and I am considering vounteering to be the chronicler in one >of the campaigns I am a player in. >Even If you dont want to use the Chronicler, it may be a good Idea to >write a short summary of each adventure. Actually I have taken to writing down a summary at the end of each adventure, because although the players all seem to remember okay, I never seem to be able to remember adventures I DM'ed very well at all! I did this in a fantasy naval battles game we played a few years back too. (It's called Man O'War in case that rings a bell - they stopped making it.) I was an elven fleet, so I wrote the reports from my point of view - when the human Imperials or the dwarves won, I exaggerated their victory, but when they lost I toned down their defeat, trying to twist the battle so it went better for the "good" guys! Of course, when I fought the humans or dwarves, they weren't so great, but I stressed the courage of both sides. Everyone in the group, including the players of the "evil" races, thought it was hilarious and also quite cool. But I should stress if you do it from a point of view that you have to exaggerate it beyon belief so as to not antagonise opposing players. Thorf. PS - Sorry about those double posts to the list, I'm not sure why that happened. I certainly didn't send them twice. Anyway, I hope this one doesn't echo... ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #81 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #82 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, May 21 1997 Volume 02 : Number 082 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:49:26 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Order in creation! On Tue, 20 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Nice seeing more scandinavian people on the list! :) I agree wholeheartedly! ;-) >A computer is a key word here. Since you have internet access, I assume >you have a computer. That is the easiest way of collecting your notes in >one place. Yes, computers are great for organising. They also have the bonus (or not) that it's hard(er) to "jot down" incoherent thoughts. >The idea of a Chronologer is an interesting one. I read about this in an >issue of Dragon (a mag. that seems to be getting less interesting every >minute since they stopped having Mystara material there). >This is one of the players who is responsible for keeping track of the >campaign story. He can write a summary of each adventure after a night of >gaming. The next time you game he can retell the story to remind everyone >of whats going on. My group has never used this concept, but I find it >interesting and I am considering vounteering to be the chronicler in one >of the campaigns I am a player in. >Even If you dont want to use the Chronicler, it may be a good Idea to >write a short summary of each adventure. Actually I have taken to writing down a summary at the end of each adventure, because although the players all seem to remember okay, I never seem to be able to remember adventures I DM'ed very well at all! I did this in a fantasy naval battles game we played a few years back too. (It's called Man O'War in case that rings a bell - they stopped making it.) I was an elven fleet, so I wrote the reports from my point of view - when the human Imperials or the dwarves won, I exaggerated their victory, but when they lost I toned down their defeat, trying to twist the battle so it went better for the "good" guys! Of course, when I fought the humans or dwarves, they weren't so great, but I stressed the courage of both sides. Everyone in the group, including the players of the "evil" races, thought it was hilarious and also quite cool. But I should stress if you do it from a point of view that you have to exaggerate it beyon belief so as to not antagonise opposing players. Thorf. PS - Sorry about those double posts to the list, I'm not sure why that happened. I certainly didn't send them twice. Anyway, I hope this one doesn't echo... ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:57:22 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Blackmoor location issue again? Not really... You see, it's strange how sometimes the situation you're in makes u change your view of the world... In this case, i've always believed that Blackmoor was on Skothar, according to HW map, but during the last month, when i searched through my D&D stuff to compile the Wendar timeline and i talked to Shawn about the SE and the Blackmoor catastrophe issue, i changed radically my idea of Blackmoor's location, cause there were far too evidences that placed B on Brun. So, trying to meld in the 2 theories, i've come to this conclusion: there were 2 Blackmoors, one beign the Old Blackmoor (the motherland) located in Brun, and the other one being a colony of Blackmoor (New Blackmoor), located on Skothar where the HW places it. When devices in Old Blackmoor exploded, so did the ones in New Blackmoor, and it is this one that became the North Pole, whereas the other was sunk in the newly formed Borean Sea west of Norwold. Does it sound reasonable? DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:01:30 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Spirit World At 23.22 20/05/97 +0200, you wrote: >One thing I didn't like in Shaman supplement was the statement that spirits are >not real, but creations of belief. Rather I'd like spirits to be dependent on >followers like immortals are. > >I think spirits should be more important in mystara. If u follow Mystara canon, then Spirits are not mere product of our mind, at least no more than fiends or undead. Ethengar Gaz has a good description of them and their powers (i'm sure u knew) >The Spirit World >Should it be considiered an Outer Plane or another Dimension? > >Haavard R. Faanes That's interesting actually. I think it should be considered an entirely different dimension, much like the Nightmare Dimension, especially due to the fact that it's so difficult to access it. Anyway, that's the way i see it... DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:03:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spirit World In a message dated 97-05-21 04:28:16 EDT, you write: << That's interesting actually. I think it should be considered an entirely different dimension, much like the Nightmare Dimension, especially due to the fact that it's so difficult to access it. Anyway, that's the way i see it... DM >> I would say that the Spirit Plane (aka Spirit World, aka Otherworld, aka Land of Faerie, etc) is a lot *easier* to access than most other Outer Planes; Dimensions are more difficult to reach, actually, since you would normally have to go through a series of Outer Planes to reach the outermost Outer Planes of the other Dimension. Just about any Shaman can reach othe Spirit Plane, while only the highest-level Illusionists (or Dream Mages in AD&D) can reach it... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:41:48 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Adventure modules I'd like some more information on these 2 modules: IM1 the Immortal Storm IM3 Best of Intentions Not that i'm planning to run them now, i'm just curious... Thanx PS: use the spoiler space please... DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:45:15 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Tue, 20 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > There was a man called Ixion, for a start. I can't remember what he > did, but as a punishment he was fixed to a burning wheel. This is > interesting because in D&D Ixion is an Immortal whose symbol is a > burning wheel... Some D&D designers obviously have a strong sense of > irony... > > There is also a man who has to push a boulder up a hill for eternity, > then when he gets to the top he fumbles and it rolls right back down. > > Finally there is a man who fed his son to the gods in an act of defiance > to show his power over them. They exiled him to Tartarus surrounded by > glorious foods and drinks which he could never quite reach (I think), > with an unquenchable thirst and hunger. > These are all correct, however those people all were in Hades, not Tartarus (and Hades is the Greek equivalent of Hell). Tartarus is more like an infinite prison filled with darkness, with no escape possible. It is where the old gods and rebellious titans and giants are confined. For more info, check data of Carceri from Planescape, which is based on Tartarus. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:58:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Blackmoor location issue again? Why sure! In a message dated 97-05-21 03:55:56 EDT, you write: << You see, it's strange how sometimes the situation you're in makes u change your view of the world... In this case, i've always believed that Blackmoor was on Skothar, according to HW map, but during the last month, when i searched through my D&D stuff to compile the Wendar timeline and i talked to Shawn about the SE and the Blackmoor catastrophe issue, i changed radically my idea of Blackmoor's location, cause there were far too evidences that placed B on Brun. So, trying to meld in the 2 theories, i've come to this conclusion: there were 2 Blackmoors, one beign the Old Blackmoor (the motherland) located in Brun, and the other one being a colony of Blackmoor (New Blackmoor), located on Skothar where the HW places it. When devices in Old Blackmoor exploded, so did the ones in New Blackmoor, and it is this one that became the North Pole, whereas the other was sunk in the newly formed Borean Sea west of Norwold. Does it sound reasonable? DM >> Well DM, I don't recall whether you recieved my own History of Blackmoor, but therein I describe almost the exact same situation, except REVERSED. IMC, the original Blackmoor and Thonia were located on Skothar, with two colonies being found on Brun before the GRoF (oddly enough, called New Blackmoor and New Thonia). New Blackmoor was the modern region of the Known World (from the Sea of Dread in the south to the Mengul-Wendar Mountains in the north, and from the Sea of Dawn in the east to the Azcan Empire in the west), and was the domain of the Imperial Teigh-Mohr Combine (Blackmoorian colonies were owned and run by corporations, much like the Hudson's Bay Company of the RW; the peoples of the ITMC were the predecessors of the Taymoran people) . New Thonia was the southern reaches of the Dawn Territories (modern Isle of Dawn). If you would like, we could argue our reasoning back and forth... but again, I don't really think it would be constructive, anymoreso than arguing about the Real World's Atlantis... for a little bit of corroboration on the Skothar Theory, here's a direct quote from the Mystara FAQ v3.0 <>> So officially the answer is Skothar.>> FAQ v3.0 courtesy of HMusseau@compuserve.com (Herve Musseau) This was always my own position... I think I even mentioned some of these details in prior posts... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:34:14 +0000 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Important (for me) Offtopic question (forgive me, Leroy) I'm planning to go to London and Edinburgh and also Cambridge this summer, and i'd like to know if there are any shops or stores in those cities where i can find old D&D supplements and modules. If anyone knows anything, please reply me personally at dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Sorry for the offtopic post, guys and gals. DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:03:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spirit World In a message dated 97-05-21 04:28:16 EDT, you write: << That's interesting actually. I think it should be considered an entirely different dimension, much like the Nightmare Dimension, especially due to the fact that it's so difficult to access it. Anyway, that's the way i see it... DM >> I would say that the Spirit Plane (aka Spirit World, aka Otherworld, aka Land of Faerie, etc) is a lot *easier* to access than most other Outer Planes; Dimensions are more difficult to reach, actually, since you would normally have to go through a series of Outer Planes to reach the outermost Outer Planes of the other Dimension. Just about any Shaman can reach othe Spirit Plane, while only the highest-level Illusionists (or Dream Mages in AD&D) can reach it... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:25:01 +-200 From: Gabriele Ferri Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >Here is the list of Outer Planes I've developed for my own campaign; it is by >no means complete, but I put it together from all the sources I had available >(save IM3; the 24 Planes of Mazikeen are not true Planes in my campaign). >No description is included; this is just the index from my "Treatsie concerning >the Mystaran Multiverse and Beyond", one of my works in progress, to be >finished slightly after the fourth edition of RuneQuest... hope this helps >somewhat... Really nice job, but I have some suggestions... >Ceticia (Time; Homeplane of Protius) Well, IMO, it doesn't sound very well... Why did you took 90% of the inspiration from Latin and Greek? IMC there are lots of immortals who have a very different background: there are Latin and Greek ones, Celt ones, African ones, Oriental ones, German ones and so on... I cannot help very much on names (only Italian and Latin names), but I'm sure that, on the list, there's a lot of people who can help... >Paradise (Time; Homeplane of Al-Kalim) A bit generic... what about The Great Garden or The Celestial Garden or The Oasis Which Never Runs Out Of Water (well, the last one is silly in English, but maybe in Arab? Anyone speaking Arab out there?) >Solus (Matter; Homeplane of Opal) Why? It means 'alone' or 'only one'... >Tellus (Matter; Homeplane of Terra) In Latin, it means 'earth', but also 'rubbish'. What about Gea or Silva? >Tempus (Time; Homeplane of Fugit) 'Tempus Fugit'? It means 'Time runs away'. Are you referring to Death? Have you ever read any T.Pratchett's book?:-) >Thrudheim (Energy; Homeplane of Thor) There's a real city called Trondheim, IMO it's better to avoid problems... Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:21:19 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks At 08:43 20-05-97 -0500, you wrote: >Form: Memo >Text: (21 lines follow) ><Netbook?>> > >Yes. There were 4 different netMAGs produced - 3 by me and 1 by >Amaldis@aol.com. They are available from the TSR forum for those of you >with AOL access. For those of you without it, I plan to try and put >together my own (very first!) web page this weekend. It will probably be >pretty crude, but I do intend to upload my 3 netMAGs. >The first was pretty minor, but the 3rd & 4th (my next two) include numerous >excerpts from the Mystara discussion boards on AOL, including some of the >better stuff from TYGHOCK and Mystaros. >I will post something to this list after I've checked out my download site >and let everyone know. Why does it seem that most cool Mystara stuff is on AOL? :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:02:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Sun, 18 May 1997, Gabriele Ferri wrote: > Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > > >Here is the list of Outer Planes I've developed for my own campaign; it is by > >no means complete, but I put it together from all the sources I had available > >(save IM3; the 24 Planes of Mazikeen are not true Planes in my campaign). >No description is included; this is just the index from my "Treatsie concerning > >the Mystaran Multiverse and Beyond", one of my works in progress, to be > >finished slightly after the fourth edition of RuneQuest... hope this helps > >somewhat... LOL :) > > Really nice job, but I have some suggestions... > >Thrudheim (Energy; Homeplane of Thor) > There's a real city called Trondheim, IMO it's better to avoid problems... Thrudheim(or Thrudvang) is the home of Thor according to mythology. Trondheim is Norways third largest city and also where I live. It means Home of the Tronders. Tronders being the people in central Norway. Tronders probably means Trond's people, whereas Trond is a common Norwegian name. I dont know what you mean with problems, but if some of you think there are too many 'Heims' then Thrudvang is probably better. Also Mystaros mentioned Utgard (Uthgard) as being the homeplane of Loki. The ruler of Utgard is Utgards-Loki. He is not the same person as Loki, but they may be related. Loki is after all half Jotun. Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:08:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spirit World On Wed, 21 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-05-21 04:28:16 EDT DM writes: > > << That's interesting actually. I think it should be considered an entirely > different dimension, much like the Nightmare Dimension, especially due to > the fact that it's so difficult to access it. Anyway, that's the way i see > it...>> > > I would say that the Spirit Plane (aka Spirit World, aka Otherworld, aka Land > of Faerie, etc) is a lot *easier* to access than most other Outer Planes; > Dimensions are more difficult to reach, actually, since you would normally > have to go through a series of Outer Planes to reach the outermost Outer > Planes of the other Dimension. Just about any Shaman can reach othe Spirit > Plane, while only the highest-level Illusionists (or Dream Mages in AD&D) can > reach it... I agree that the Spirit World should be easy to access(for shamans) and I think it should be accessible from all planes, not just the prime plane. Also it must somehow be somehow related to Limbo since their functions are somehow related, dont you think? Not quite sure how though. Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:11:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Sun, 18 May 1997, Gabriele Ferri wrote: > >Tempus (Time; Homeplane of Fugit) > 'Tempus Fugit'? It means 'Time runs away'. Are you referring to Death? Have > you ever read any T.Pratchett's book?:-) Actually, Tempus is the homeplane of Fugit, a Time Immortal, as described in IM2. So Mystaros didn't make this one up, this time. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:20:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Adventure modules On Wed, 21 May 1997, DM wrote: > I'd like some more information on these 2 modules: > IM1 the Immortal Storm > IM3 Best of Intentions > > PS: use the spoiler space please... SPOILER I've never actually run these and I havent read them more than just briefly, but okay: IM3 The Best of Intentions A Plot to breed new immortals from the Dimension of Nightmares since these might easier penetrate the Vortex. This plot involves killing off immortal candidates from the prime plane. One of the conspirators, Mazikeen has second thoughts and Pharamond, main conspirator puts a feeblemind on him. (Which also turns his avatars crazy) Terra and the other Hierarchs send the PCs to investigate. They have to explore the 24planes of Mazikeen and talk to his crazy avatars to find out whats going on. does this help? I have the other Module somewhere too, but since somewhere is the key here, you will have to ask me again later Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:57:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Achelos Adventure in W. Karameikos On Tue, 20 May 1997, Patrick wrote: > > Hi everyone. > Anyway, when I first posted this setting, there was some interest, and I > was wondering if anyone was interested in seeing the more-detailed > adventure. If so, let me know:) Just do it! :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:08:03 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spirit World In a message dated 97-05-21 10:28:38 EDT, you write: << I would say that the Spirit Plane (aka Spirit World, aka Otherworld, aka Land of Faerie, etc) is a lot *easier* to access than most other Outer Planes; Dimensions are more difficult to reach, actually, since you would normally have to go through a series of Outer Planes to reach the outermost Outer Planes of the other Dimension. Just about any Shaman can reach othe Spirit Plane, while only the highest-level Illusionists (or Dream Mages in AD&D) can reach it... >> You're interp is close to mine, Mystaros. I view the "spirit world", "limbo" (from Dragon Magazine, not Planescape), and the "faerie realm" as different realms on a single spirit plane. My take on the spirit world is that it is similar to the Aether or the Phlogiston in that it touches the material plane at all points, although some realms in the spirit plane are more closely tied to specific geographical areas on Mystara (like the faerie realm and Alfeim), and at certain "nodes" the boundaries between the spirit plane and the material plane are thinner (the World Mountain in Ethengar). In fact, I've been toying with the idea of simply merging this spirit plane with the Aetherial plane IMC. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:55:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos I've thought of adding some _religion_ into Mystara. Here is the Church of Karameikos seen from a different Light. Tell me what you think The Church of Karameikos The White Light: The White Light is what we came from. In the beginning the world was created from the White Light. The White Light is Knowledge, Purity and Illumination The Darkness: As the word came between the White Light and the people, the world cast a shadow. People living in the darkness forgot the beauty and purity of the White Light. They learned about greed and selfishness, and thus, Evil came upon the world. The Moon: There were many Prophets in the Old world. But Evil was also present. The Greatest of Prophets, Asterius saw that Darkness was evil, and warned the people of the Old World. But they would not listen. As Evil turned upon itself, the Old World was destryed, but the White Lights spared Asterius. Asterius asceneded to dwell among the Immortals, and he created the Moon to reflect the White Light at night. Evil: Even though the Moon exists the Darkness is present. The Demons whisper lies in your ear and sow the seeds of selfishness in your mind as you sleep. The Greatest of Demons in Thanatos, but do not call out his name lest you want him to listen. The Immortals: Most loved children of the White Light, they have sworn to protect us against Evil and lead us to the Path of Illumination. These are the most wise of the Immortals; Asterius, Ilsundal, Kagyar, Valerias and Vanya Demons: Even the Immortals can be seduced by Darkness. So it was with Thanatos, the firstborn of the White Light. At that time he was a luminous being, but he was the first who discovered the Darkness. And thus he became its most powerful slave. For he is our greatest Enemy and even Asterius fears him. Only those who remain on the Path of White Light are safe from him. Other Immortals believed his lies and we can only trust the most wise. Death: We come from the White Light. And to the White Light we shall return. But only if our Soul is unstained by Sin. When we die our souls are plunged into Limbo. Asterius will lead the unstained soul to his realm, the Crystal Halls of the Seven Moons. Stained Souls must remain in Limbo till Time purifies them. But this time of purification is painfull and your soul is unprotected from the Demons. Afterlife: The Pure Souls shall dine with the Immortals in the Crystall Halls of the Seven Moons, forever enlightened by the White Light. The Book of Jowett: The Wise Oliver Jowett has written this Holy Book to guide us through the hardships of life. Angels: Divine brilliant beings sent from asterius to guide and protect us. Eternal messengers Demons: Alphaks, Demogorgon and Orcus and their servants. Beware these foul beings as they attempt to lead you off the Path of the White Light. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:18:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] re: netbooks Form: Memo Text: (16 lines follow) <> just a guess, but it could be that it's TSR's official corporate presence. We've had over 6 folders of 500 posts each, including a running novel, contributed to by all, that I'm STILL trying to edit and compile (no mean feat - gets added to every day) and numerous fun discussion, usually egged on by Bruce. LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:32:12 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Azcotica On Tue, 20 May 1997 Nicholas C Bambakidis wrote: >Does anyone know or has anyone worked on the circumstances and timeline >by which Azcotica became king of the Azcan Empire? The descriptions in >the almanacs are a bit vague. Hmm. I agree. No work here, I'm afraid. On that subject, how many people noticed the thrice-perpetuated error in calling the previous Tlatoani Moctaplan rather than Moctitlapac? And talking of PWA errors, did anyone catch the "little" mistake in the abandoning of the Heldannic outpost at Stonehaven? Anna von Hendriks first uses a Travel spell, then a Commune spell... trouble is, NEITHER of these work in the Hollow World, before OR after WotI! It's ironic that these two spells fit precisely into two of the six categories of inactive Hollow World magic. Three of those categories became active after WotI, but neither of these spells' categories did! >Nicholas Bambakidis, MD (officially graduated last weekend!) >nbamba@juno.com Congratulations, Nicholas! Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:47:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] art Does anyone know of any Websites wher I can find Black and White art. I am looking for Fantasy or Medieval European motifs. Not TSR art though, Im trying to find something to put on my homepage. Even though the Web is full of TSR art I thought I might just keep my website TSR-friendly. Hows that? :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:27:23 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Tue, 20 May 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >> Tartarus seems to be much more personal than just Hell, having >> completely different locales depending on the person being punished. > >Haven't read Dante's _Inferno_, have you? ;) Actually no, I haven't. But I always got the impression that there were lots of *classifiable* places in Hell, where that type of person goes. Tartarus is different in that it has no general "Hell" description but is defined only through individuals. Incidentally I am reading Milton's "Paradise Lost", though, and it has some interesting ideas in regards to personal hells too. :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:34:02 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks On Wed, 21 May 1997 Deathwatch wrote: >Why does it seem that most cool Mystara stuff is on AOL? :) Is it? If so, I'm sure some of us non-AOL people would appreciate kindly AOL subscribers redistributing that stuff to the list... Any volunteers? ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:42:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Wed, 21 May 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >On Sun, 18 May 1997, Gabriele Ferri wrote: > >> >Tempus (Time; Homeplane of Fugit) >> 'Tempus Fugit'? It means 'Time runs away'. Are you referring to Death? Have >> you ever read any T.Pratchett's book?:-) > >Actually, Tempus is the homeplane of Fugit, a Time Immortal, as described >in IM2. So Mystaros didn't make this one up, this time. ;) As far as I know "tempus fugit" is a Latin idiom, hence the many puns and jokes around it (Fugit living in Tempus, an episode of a tv programme called "Tempus Fugitive", etc.). Incidentally I have read a fair number of Mr. Pratchett's books. You may be interested to know Gabriele that one of my PCs has the Luggage (it's a family heirloom). He's an Alphatian wizard, but he's not quite level-0. ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:01:50 -0300 From: Victor Caminha Subject: Re: [Mystara] art At 20:47 21/05/97 +0200, you wrote: >Does anyone know of any Websites wher I can find Black and White art. I am >looking for Fantasy or Medieval European motifs. Not TSR art though, Im >trying to find something to put on my homepage. Even though the Web is >full of TSR art I thought I might just keep my website TSR-friendly. >Hows that? :) Hi! i have collected long time ago some medieval pictures (99% are B&W) but i do not have the Url. If you wish, i may send to you in Attach IN PRIVATE. I think they are around 50+ . If you want, send me a reply. However, i am off to Săo Paulo to an RPG-CoN. I will probably answer you only nextweek ok? great []s Victor Caminha Rio de Janeiro, Brazil "Receive the bounty of your hero's deed Tainting thy life by the gift of the dead Eternally running from a priestly bead Unable to bear the Orb in your head You'll walk in the darkness so alluring Without Hope to cleanse your sin Away from the joy of the living Forever to serve your Twin" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:09:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Adventure modules On Wed, 21 May 1997 DM wrote: > I'd like some more information on these 2 modules: >IM1 the Immortal Storm >IM3 Best of Intentions > >Not that i'm planning to run them now, i'm just curious... >Thanx > >PS: use the spoiler space please... I can tell you a very small amount... SPOILER SPACE IM1 involves travelling to an outer plane where magic doesn't work at all, even Immortal magic. Essentially the plane is the real world, and the Immortal characters travel to or in Chicago and New York. As to the rest of the plot, I'm afraid I don't know. IM3 I'm not sure about either, I'm afraid. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:07:05 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Wed, 21 May 1997 Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: >These are all correct, however those people all were in Hades, not >Tartarus (and Hades is the Greek equivalent of Hell). Tartarus is more >like an infinite prison filled with darkness, with no escape possible. It >is where the old gods and rebellious titans and giants are confined. For >more info, check data of Carceri from Planescape, which is based on >Tartarus. I'm afraid you're incorrect: these stories are all about Tartarus. Even my dictionary mentions Ixion and Tantalus (thanks for remembering the name, John!) in the Tartarus entry. Incidentally it also has entries for Ixion and Tantalus: Ixion Gk. Mythol. a king who was the first to murder one of his kin. He was purified by Zeue but tried to seduce Hera, for which he was punished by being pinned to a fiery wheel that revolved unceasingly through the underworld. Tantalus a Lydian king, son of Zeus and father of Pelops. For his crimes (which included killing Pelops and offering his flesh to the gods) he was punished in Tartarus by being provided with fruit and water which receded when he reached for them. His name is the origin of the word tantalize. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:14:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos In a message dated 97-05-21 15:12:52 EDT, you write: << I've thought of adding some _religion_ into Mystara. Here is the Church of Karameikos seen from a different Light. Tell me what you think>> Vey Cool Dude! Here are a few comments... <> Very good introductory concepts. Fits in with all the stuff about Asterius (he was known as a Prophet IMC version of Blackmoor too). <> Perhaps you can fit in something about the schisms of the various Temples of Thyatis into this; perhaps there is some antagonism between the Sun Templars (Ixion) and the followers of Ilsundal in the Empire of Thyatis << Demons: Even the Immortals can be seduced by Darkness. So it was with Thanatos, the firstborn of the White Light. At that time he was a luminous being, but he was the first who discovered the Darkness. And thus he became its most powerful slave. For he is our greatest Enemy and even Asterius fears him. Only those who remain on the Path of White Light are safe from him. Other Immortals believed his lies and we can only trust the most wise. Death: We come from the White Light. And to the White Light we shall return. But only if our Soul is unstained by Sin. When we die our souls are plunged into Limbo. Asterius will lead the unstained soul to his realm, the Crystal Halls of the Seven Moons. Stained Souls must remain in Limbo till Time purifies them. But this time of purification is painfull and your soul is unprotected from the Demons.>> Great stuff! Keep the Demons... I don;t know about the "Seven Moons" though... maybe Five, to match the number of Immortals in the Karameikan Church? << Afterlife: The Pure Souls shall dine with the Immortals in the Crystall Halls of the Seven Moons, forever enlightened by the White Light. The Book of Jowett: The Wise Oliver Jowett has written this Holy Book to guide us through the hardships of life. >> I'd move the writer of the Holy Texts back a bit, maybe the Karameikan Church had it's origins during the schims of the 6th century; besides, Oliver Jowett doesn't seem the type to inspire such fervor... remember, he's not a zealot, just a jentle fellow << Angels: Divine brilliant beings sent from asterius to guide and protect us. Eternal messengers Demons: Alphaks, Demogorgon and Orcus and their servants. Beware these foul beings as they attempt to lead you off the Path of the White Light.>> What could be used as "Angels" in D&D? I was thinking maybe Archons and related creatures; less human-like than RW angels (hearkening back to the style of ancient religions like ancient Zoroastrianism, etc). Plenty of Demons and then some (though "Fiends" is as good a term; Baatezu and Tanar'ri, though.... no thanks)! Great start man, let's see more! Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #82 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #83 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, May 22 1997 Volume 02 : Number 083 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:17:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Azcotica In a message dated 97-05-21 15:21:57 EDT, you write: << Anna von Hendriks first uses a Travel spell, then a Commune spell... trouble is, NEITHER of these work in the Hollow World, before OR after WotI! It's ironic that these two spells fit precisely into two of the six categories of inactive Hollow World magic. Three of those categories became active after WotI, but neither of these spells' categories did! >> Hmmm... "Anna" von Hendricks.... "Vanya" the Conquerer.... "Anya" from Thyatis... coincidence? I think not... Where is Per Kervik when you need him... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks In a message dated 97-05-21 16:41:37 EDT, you write: << Is it? If so, I'm sure some of us non-AOL people would appreciate kindly AOL subscribers redistributing that stuff to the list... Any volunteers? ;-) Thorf. >> ANNOUNCING!!!! Mystaros's Home Page!!! Under construction, but everything that I can fit will be going into it! My address: www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1437 Bear with me, I'm learning html as I go... and most of it is still under construction... but everything I have written and then some will make it's way into there eventually, including some of my maps if I can get the use of a scanner somewhere... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:40:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus According to _An Encyclopedia of Greek Mythology_ by Richard Stoneman, Tatarus was "A dark region as far below Hades as Hades is below the earth, and prison of the Giants and Titans, who were guarded there by the Hundred-Handers. According to Homer, an anvil dropped from heavan would fall nine days before reaching Tartarus [wonder how far that is?]. The King of Tartarus was also called Tartarus, and was a son of Chaos amnd father by his sister Earth of Typhoes and Echidna. [Hesiod, _Theogony_]." So all of you are right, sort of... the Greek Underworld was, in fact, Hades, and that was where Tantalus, Tityus, Ixion and Sisyphus were imprisoned... Tartarus was reserved for the Big Guys who Challenged the Gods... sort of like the Entities from the Void Between the Stars and the Carnifex in my own campaign... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:02:54 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Azcotica On Wed, 21 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Hmmm... "Anna" von Hendricks.... "Vanya" the Conquerer.... "Anya" from > Thyatis... coincidence? I think not... Where is Per Kervik when you need > him... Along these lines, I would include a small old theory of mine: Th Ana tos. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:28:53 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Aaron Allston Hi, Does anyone happen to know what Aaron Allston is up to nowadays? I've always liked his stuff (Dawn of the Emperors, Hollow World, Wrath of the Immortals, GAZ1 and GAZ6, not to mention the first and best Poor Wizard's Almanac), and it's a shame he stopped doing Mystara. Also, on the same sort of subject, does anyone have a full (or partial) list of his other stuff? I read recently that he wrote a book for DMing, and of course there's his Mystara stuff. What else has he done over the years? And does he still work for TSR or not? Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:32:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] re: order in creation Form: Memo Text: (42 lines follow) My personal influences/inspirations: 1. My personal readings on history and fiction. I have incorporated everything from David Eddings' knights (the Elenium trilogy) to Saxon legends to David Drake's Romans (Birds of Prey) to L. Sprague DeCamp's brilliant writings on ancient cities & engineers (usually available VERY cheap at Barnes & Noble) to Indian/Eastern religion (wife has a degree in religious studies - very helpful) to interesting tidbit villages here and there. Many of the NCOs I work with day-to-day pop up as charecters in my campaigns. For general atmosphere, read works written by comtemporaries of the culture you're shooting for: The Persian Wars for ancient Greece/Troy, the Aeniad for Rome, Gregory of Tours' History of the Frankish peoples for Charelmagne, Ivanhoe for the Middle Ages (see below) 2. National Geographic. Aside from grandiose photography and visuals, and usually excellent writing, they have the best maps on the planet. If TSR wanted to make more money on Mystara, they should contract NG to redraw the trail maps - it wold probably be their biggest-selling product ever. 3. Film/TV: I enjoy many different genres, but almost every fantasy work has been raided by me. Personal favorites: Sword and the Sorceror, Willow, Farewell to the King (WWII in Borneo), Hercules & Xena (OK, their fight scenes are gratoitous and cheesy, but the atmosphere of the shows is outstanding), the original Highlander, Braveheart/ Rob Roy, Ivanhoe (although I'm wierd: I like the 1982 made-for-TV one better than the Liz and Dick one from the 50s). 4. To tie it all together, I prefer to use the suggestions/ guidelines/ ideas laid out in the Fantasy Hero gamebook and the Aria - Canticle of the Monomyth bk. II Worlds. I'll try to go into more detail later - I've been doing this for 15 years, so I've done far more than just listed here. If you want specificifics, email me personall, but right no I have to run. LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:50:08 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos > << I've thought of adding some _religion_ into Mystara. Here is the > Church of Karameikos seen from a different Light. Tell me what you think>> I think this is awesome! > << Angels: Divine brilliant beings sent from asterius to guide and protect > us. Eternal messengers > > Demons: Alphaks, Demogorgon and Orcus and their servants. Beware these > foul beings as they attempt to lead you off the Path of the > White Light.>> > > What could be used as "Angels" in D&D? I was thinking maybe Archons and > related creatures; less human-like than RW angels (hearkening back to the > style of ancient religions like ancient Zoroastrianism, etc). Plenty of > Demons and then some (though "Fiends" is as good a term; Baatezu and > Tanar'ri, though.... no thanks)! Great start man, let's see more! > > Mystaros I completely agree with Mystaros regarding "demons." As for angels, there are the lawful Homunculi (I forget their name, one of the three types is an Ulzaq, but I don't think that's it). Anyway, they are a lot like the common perception of cherubim (even if they're miles away from the actual description in the bible). Also, the Titans could be considered Angels. But Mystaros' point that the angels don't necessarily have to be human is good as well. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:39:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos On Wed, 21 May 1997, Patrick wrote: > I completely agree with Mystaros regarding "demons." As for angels, there > are the lawful Homunculi (I forget their name, one of the three types is an > Ulzaq, but I don't think that's it). Anyway, they are a lot like the > common perception of cherubim (even if they're miles away from the actual > description in the bible). Also, the Titans could be considered Angels. > But Mystaros' point that the angels don't necessarily have to be human is > good as well. Also, recall the Guardian Angels from Bruce Heard's Limbo article in Dragon. The Guardian Angels are Lawful characters whose souls have gone to Limbo and remained to fight the Lords of Chaos and Servants of Entropy there and in other planes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:22:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus Thorfinn Tait pontificated: > > I'm afraid you're incorrect: these stories are all about Tartarus. Even > my dictionary mentions Ixion and Tantalus (thanks for remembering the > name, John!) in the Tartarus entry. Sometime you have to becareful using dictionary as reference. It doesn't always get the specifics right. I looked up a few references, and one of the possible cause of confusion we have here is that Tartarus is used both as a region of Hades or sometime synonymous as Hades. BTW, I was wrong yesterday when I said Tartarus was one of the five major rivers in Hades. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:48:14 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aaron Allston On Thu, 22 May 1997 00:28:53 +0100 Thorfinn Tait writes: >Hi, > >Does anyone happen to know what Aaron Allston is up to nowadays? I've >always liked his stuff (Dawn of the Emperors, Hollow World, Wrath of >the >Immortals, GAZ1 and GAZ6, not to mention the first and best Poor >Wizard's Almanac), and it's a shame he stopped doing Mystara. > >Also, on the same sort of subject, does anyone have a full (or >partial) >list of his other stuff? I read recently that he wrote a book for >DMing, and of course there's his Mystara stuff. What else has he done >over the years? And does he still work for TSR or not? > I think he recently did some of the Beholder modules or supplements for AD&D. I haven't purchased or read them, however. Nick nbamba@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:48:14 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: [Mystara] Re: order in creation On Wed, 21 May 1997 17:32:00 -0500 "GUILLORY: BRANT" writes: >Form: Memo >Text: (42 lines follow) >My personal influences/inspirations: > >3. Film/TV: I enjoy many different genres, but almost every fantasy >work >has been raided by me. Personal favorites: Sword and the Sorceror, >Willow, >Farewell to the King (WWII in Borneo), Hercules & Xena (OK, their >fight >scenes are gratoitous and cheesy, but the atmosphere of the shows is >outstanding), the original Highlander, Braveheart/ Rob Roy, Ivanhoe >(although I'm wierd: I like the 1982 made-for-TV one better than the >Liz >and Dick one from the 50s). > Come on! You don't like the best fantasy movie ever made: Conan the Barbarian?! No better bad guy ever made than Thulsa Doom! nbamba@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:48:38 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Wed, 21 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >According to _An Encyclopedia of Greek Mythology_ by Richard Stoneman, >Tatarus was "A dark region as far below Hades as Hades is below the earth, >and prison of the Giants and Titans, who were guarded there by the >Hundred-Handers. According to Homer, an anvil dropped from heavan would fall >nine days before reaching Tartarus [wonder how far that is?]. The King of >Tartarus was also called Tartarus, and was a son of Chaos amnd father by his >sister Earth of Typhoes and Echidna. [Hesiod, _Theogony_]." > >So all of you are right, sort of... the Greek Underworld was, in fact, Hades, >and that was where Tantalus, Tityus, Ixion and Sisyphus were imprisoned... >Tartarus was reserved for the Big Guys who Challenged the Gods... sort of >like the Entities from the Void Between the Stars and the Carnifex in my own >campaign... Tartarus is *in* or *part of* the underworld (this is not necessarily contradictory with what you said). So yes, Ixion et al were indeed in the Underworld, but they were also in Tartarus. The Titans, etc were also imprisoned there. We should remember that this sort of thing is by no means all solid and nicely-fitting - just as with Mystara, there are contradictions in the "canon" of classical literature. ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:45:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-21 09:57:26 EDT, you write: << Thrudheim (Energy; Homeplane of Thor) There's a real city called Trondheim, IMO it's better to avoid problems... >> Then again, at least it doesn't mean "Goat Droppings"... I think... :) Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:50:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-21 14:44:40 EDT, you write: << Thrudheim(or Thrudvang) is the home of Thor according to mythology. Trondheim is Norways third largest city and also where I live. It means Home of the Tronders. Tronders being the people in central Norway. Tronders probably means Trond's people, whereas Trond is a common Norwegian name. I dont know what you mean with problems, but if some of you think there are too many 'Heims' then Thrudvang is probably better. Also Mystaros mentioned Utgard (Uthgard) as being the homeplane of Loki. The ruler of Utgard is Utgards-Loki. He is not the same person as Loki, but they may be related. Loki is after all half Jotun. Haavard >> Oops! Sorry, it was Haavard, not Thorf who let us in on the info about Thrudheim and such. Thanks guy! Sorry Thorf! Also, I realized that Utgard-Loki was not the same as Loki; IMC, Utgard-Loki was around at the time of Blackmoor, an Immortal of the Skandaharians and Giants. He is no longer around; he disapppeared some millenia ago... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:44:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-21 09:57:26 EDT, Gabi wrote: << >Ceticia (Time; Homeplane of Protius) Well, IMO, it doesn't sound very well... Why did you took 90% of the inspiration from Latin and Greek? IMC there are lots of immortals who have a very different background: there are Latin and Greek ones, Celt ones, African ones, Oriental ones, German ones and so on... I cannot help very much on names (only Italian and Latin names), but I'm sure that, on the list, there's a lot of people who can help...>> Well, I went with something that sounded more to the origin of a Greco-Roman type Immortal; Protius is rather Latinish, after all... and his originating in a dolphin-like creature made Cetaceans a natural... <<>Paradise (Time; Homeplane of Al-Kalim) A bit generic... what about The Great Garden or The Celestial Garden or The Oasis Which Never Runs Out Of Water (well, the last one is silly in English, but maybe in Arab? Anyone speaking Arab out there?)>> Paradise sounded very "Arabic" to me; the other names could be used as epithets for Paradise or sections of it... << >Solus (Matter; Homeplane of Opal) Why? It means 'alone' or 'only one'...>> Latin is not my forte... I was going with the "Sol" concept, as in "Sun"... <<>Tellus (Matter; Homeplane of Terra) In Latin, it means 'earth', but also 'rubbish'. What about Gea or Silva?>> Ge is already used for Djaea's Homeplane; Terra, I though was Latin for "Earth", so I went with something a bit like it... <<>Tempus (Time; Homeplane of Fugit) 'Tempus Fugit'? It means 'Time runs away'. Are you referring to Death? Have you ever read any T.Pratchett's book?:-)>> Straight from the module in this case; don't blame me! Frightening what some of those authors are capable of, isn;t it? :) <<>Thrudheim (Energy; Homeplane of Thor) There's a real city called Trondheim, IMO it's better to avoid problems...>> As Thorf mentioned (I think it was Thorf), Thrudheim comes straight from Norse myth... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:19:35 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Wed, 21 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > I'm afraid you're incorrect: these stories are all about Tartarus. Even > my dictionary mentions Ixion and Tantalus (thanks for remembering the > name, John!) in the Tartarus entry. > > Incidentally it also has entries for Ixion and Tantalus: > > Ixion Gk. Mythol. a king who was the first to murder one of his kin. > He was purified by Zeue but tried to seduce Hera, for which he was > punished by being pinned to a fiery wheel that revolved unceasingly > through the underworld. > > Tantalus a Lydian king, son of Zeus and father of Pelops. For his > crimes (which included killing Pelops and offering his flesh to the > gods) he was punished in Tartarus by being provided with fruit and water > which receded when he reached for them. His name is the origin of the > word tantalize. > I don't know. MY book of Greek mythology says that Hades is the Greek Hell. That's where Aides (or Hades), god of the dead lives, and that's where the dead (ALL dead, not just sinners) go after they die. The sinners are punished, while others just live a dull existence. The hero Heracles visited Hades when he was assigned the task of defeating Cerberus, and there he met Achilles, has seen Tantalus, and Sisyphus (the guy who rolls the boulder up a slope). Tartarus is only mentioned in the earliest myths as the place from which Gaea (the earth) has originated, and later all other things (sky, oceans, etc.) Tartarus was a dark, infinite space somewhere beneath the universe, and it also served as the prison for rebellious Titans. It's also the place where Zeus confined his father Khronos. I don't know who is right, but this is the version I've always seen mentioned. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:51:40 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Thu, 22 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > <<>Paradise (Time; Homeplane of Al-Kalim) > A bit generic... what about The Great Garden or The Celestial Garden or The > Oasis Which Never Runs Out Of Water (well, the last one is silly in English, > but maybe in Arab? Anyone speaking Arab out there?)>> > > Paradise sounded very "Arabic" to me; the other names could be used as > epithets for Paradise or sections of it... > Why not call it Al-Jannah, which is "Paradise" in Arabic. That way there could be some flavor instead of just boring old Paradise. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:44:06 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > On Tue, 20 May 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" > wrote: > >> Tartarus seems to be much more personal than just Hell, having > >> completely different locales depending on the person being punished. > > > >Haven't read Dante's _Inferno_, have you? ;) > > Actually no, I haven't. But I always got the impression that there were > lots of *classifiable* places in Hell, where that type of person goes. > Tartarus is different in that it has no general "Hell" description but > is defined only through individuals. Dante's Inferno is divided in sectors (also called 'circles'). In every sector all the sinners of the same kind are punished together with a pain suitable to their sin. For example those who have committed the sin of greed are eaten by Cerberus (a three headed beast)! - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:44:14 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question > << >Solus (Matter; Homeplane of Opal) > Why? It means 'alone' or 'only one'...>> > > Latin is not my forte... I was going with the "Sol" concept, as in "Sun"... In Latin sun is called 'sol'. So I'd call the homplane of Opal 'Solium', which means 'Of the Suns'. > <<>Tellus (Matter; Homeplane of Terra) > In Latin, it means 'earth', but also 'rubbish'. What about Gea or Silva?>> > > Ge is already used for Djaea's Homeplane; Terra, I though was Latin for > "Earth", so I went with something a bit like it... As far as I know 'tellus' means only earth, land or population and not rubbish. However, why not 'Orbis Terrarum' (terrestrial globe) or Gaia (have you ever read The Edge of Foundation by Isaac Asimov?)? BTW has anyone developed some specific details about these homeplanes (shape, main features, number of planets, inhabitants, etc.)? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:01:31 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tartarus On Tue, 20 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > >> Tartarus? (The Roman/Greek equivalent of Hell - at least sort of) > > > >Does anyone know what Tartarus was like? I know it was below the > >underworld, It was also where the Titans were bannished and it was > >probably not a nice place. > > Well... it wasn't a very nice place, but I'm not sure what it was > supposed to be like physically. I do know a few stories about it > though, and I'm sure you do too. > > There was a man called Ixion, for a start. I can't remember what he > did, but as a punishment he was fixed to a burning wheel. This is > interesting because in D&D Ixion is an Immortal whose symbol is a > burning wheel... Some D&D designers obviously have a strong sense of > irony... He was invited to Olympus by Zeus and basically started ordering the gods around, sleeping with Hera, and generally taking over as head guy. So Zues strapped him to a flaming chariot wheel and rolled him into Tartarus. > > There is also a man who has to push a boulder up a hill for eternity, > then when he gets to the top he fumbles and it rolls right back down. Sisiphus > > Finally there is a man who fed his son to the gods in an act of defiance > to show his power over them. They exiled him to Tartarus surrounded by > glorious foods and drinks which he could never quite reach (I think), > with an unquenchable thirst and hunger. Tantalus, the origin of tantalize. > > Tartarus seems to be much more personal than just Hell, having > completely different locales depending on the person being punished. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:26:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] Aaron Allston > Does anyone happen to know what Aaron Allston is up to nowadays? I've > always liked his stuff (Dawn of the Emperors, Hollow World, Wrath of the > Immortals, GAZ1 and GAZ6, not to mention the first and best Poor > Wizard's Almanac), and it's a shame he stopped doing Mystara. > > Also, on the same sort of subject, does anyone have a full (or partial) > list of his other stuff? I read recently that he wrote a book for > DMing, and of course there's his Mystara stuff. What else has he done > over the years? And does he still work for TSR or not? Best bet is to check his web page..http://www.io/com/(~aalston?)(~alston)? He has a list of all his work and I think he includes his email addy if you want to drop off comments. "We love your adherence to democratic principles and democratic processes" - - George Bush, 1981, to dictator Ferdinard Marcos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:29:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [Mystara] Kog HWR version 2 HWR4:The Kogolor By Mischa Gelman (though Thorfinn Tait proved a huge help, giving information from the PWA, new ideas and suggestions and reworking some old ideas. A few sections below are entirely due to his help and most of them were influenced by him in some way) In this section: Gender/Marriage Family Structure Religion Age Interclan Relationships Social Status Justice History/Ancestor Reverence Foreign Relations Diet Entertainment Skills,crafts,professions Kogolor society overview Military Skiing Note on Names Critters/Deep Glaurants Kogolor city layouts Gender Kogolor are more egalitarian than most Hollow World humanoids. Women can rise to the highest levels of the priesthood, of the household, of the clan. Men take an equal hand in raising children, which is never considered the sole duty of the mother. Women are trained in arms just as men are. Women handle all jobs in society, as do men, no profession being limited by gender. Still the society is more male-dominated than female, vestiges of how things worked when the Kogolor were in the Outer World. Marriage Kogolor marry for love generally. They practice endogamy, all marriages taking place within the clan. All legal marriages anyways. Marriages outside the clan can cause all sorts of troubles. Marriages are conducted seperate from religious law, usually presided over by a high-ranking member of the bride's clan. Marriages are usually lifelong, divorce being highly looked down upon. If someone divorces, they may become ostracized. Family Structure Kogolor Dwarves lived in extended families. Five or more generations commonly live in one household, impossible in human households with their shorter lifespans. Grandparents and great grandparents and other ancestors take an equal share with parents in raising children and elders in general run each household. The heads of household can be anyone, but it is often the senior member and if not him/her then a high religious or political official or the main wealth-earner in the house. The young are raised by the whole household but Kogolor young are greatly spoiled. Discipline is rather lax, children being given years to learn life's lessons on their own. Young dwarves learn responsibility through trial and error, with little intervention. It promotes independence in youth, but also promotes the idea of dependence on the clan - if you get into any real trouble, they'll be there for you. Also, as someone put it, you get raised by "the entire family" with so many generations under one roof. Religion Kogolor worship Garal Glitterlode. He is praised for all that happens that is well. Parts of each family's earnings are sent to the nearest temple. Works of art are made in his name and honor. In return, he watches over the Kogolor and is a visible presence in daily life. Fred and Fredara have small followings but are not considered a protector of the Kogolor as Garal is and few families donate anything to his temples. The priests of Garal are mostly artisans but all care deeply for the society and the people. Kagyar was the original patron of the Kogolor and is still worshipped by a few, but he no longer grants these dwarves clerical powers as he has basically given up on the Kogolor as a whole. When Kagyar withdrew his gifts from the Kogolor, Garal Glitterlode stepped up in his place and started to protect the folk whom he was once one of. Age This was covered alot in earlier sections but as more information on some things has been requested here it is. Dwarves generally marry around age 50, though everywhere between 30 and 300 has been heard of. Children are born around every 30 years on the average, with women giving birth from ages 30 to 230, most mothers of age 60-180 though. This works out to an average of 4 siblings per couple, though of course there is great variance. Children reach partial adulthood (what we consider teens or so) at age 20 and full adulthood at age 30. Geez, that number comes up alot :) Anyways, tried to keep that all simple since many of you probably find it dull. The reaching of adulthood is not joined with any religious ceremony but, unlike most Kogolor events, is considered more solemn than joyous. The Kogolor realize that the days when they can most play and enjoy themselves are over, and that it is their time to take their place in society. As Kogolor enjoy silliness and merriment, this event is seen in the solemn light mentioned earlier. Then again, if a Kogolor does not take her or his place in society they are looked down upon. All Kogolor are expected to contribute and one cannot be immature all the time once you reach a point in life. This time, of course, is a period of joy as well in a way. Marriages may occur at age 30. Kogolor may also be glad to take their place in adult society, to show their skill in their field of occupation. No ceremony is done at this milestone, though, that is not done at other Kogolor anniversaries of birth. Interclan relationships The clans of the Kogolor people get along rather well. They do not war against one another. Few seek to show up others. Few are considered "superior" or "inferior" to another. Foreigners may have alot of trouble picking up on the difference clans as they are not different greatly. Clans do tend to congregate, especially in bigger cities. Instead of districts divided by use, as popular in some other nations, districts among the dwarvish cities are divided along clan lines. A large clanhouse (for larger clans and in larger cities) welcomes members of the clan from outside communities. I think the clans get along rather well. They meet each other day to day, conduct commerce and so on and so forth. It is just most socializing tends to go along inside the clan than with outdiers. And vying for control..I really don't see them as in competition with each other. Social status There is no caste system in Kogolor society. There is a rather well-accepted system of cultural status though based on occupation. The most important members of Kogolor society are the Clanmasters/mistresses. After them are the Keepers of the Forge, followed by High Priest(esse)s of Garal Glitterlode. Heads of household are also given much prestige in the society. After that, there is no set correlation of prestige and occupation. The more skilled members at anything are appreciated more, as are the more elder members of the community. Most dwarves do not actively seek high status. They do not disdain it, nor do they indulge in it. Justice The Kogolor judicial system is fairly simple. Crimes like murder, rape, mass destruction of property, the study of magic or treachery against the state are all punishable by death. Less serious crimes are often punished by fines or required social service. The judgement of crimes is passed by a Klaurmann, a dwarf well-versed in the Kogolor legal tradition, who has spent 10 years studying and watching an established Klaurmann do his/her job. For the crimes that are punishable by death, a council of 3 established Klaurmenn preside over the case. Occasionally one of the students is allowed to judge a minor case, but they never sit on these councils. A female judge is also entitled a Klaurmann. The councils are called Desklaur. In certain situations, the judicial system is not used. In times of attack from an enemy nation or in times of mass civil unrest, the higher members of Kogolor society may take the law into their own hands with little threat of future repricussion(sp?). On military campaigns, the commanders are given a Klaurmann aid to help deal with any problems that may arise. History While all the events concerning the Kogolor that were discussed in the Hollow World Boxed Set did occur, the dwarves do not have records of much of it. The major historical events thus look vastly different to their eyes. Their views are they were not moved from the Outer World, but were created in the Hollow World. They believe Garal Glitterlode created them, though he was not a power yet in truth at that time. The Denwarf incident is considered by a small few to be myth, but is regarded as truth. In times of trouble, portions of the people may expect Denwarf to return again to lead them out of it, likely resulting in a surprise when he fails to. No incidents of wide-spread import have occurred in the HW for the Kogolor, save those listed in the HW boxed set. They are not a people often plagued by conflicts or troubles as a whole. Local groups though have their own true stories and myths developed around the personal experience of their ancestors. Almost all dwarven communities have a historian or chronicler t o maintain the records of times, and as such events stand less chance of changing to myth with time. Then again, the chroniclers and historians put their own twist on events, which could lead to several perceptions of one incident. Ancestor Reverence The Kogolor greatly respect the past and their ancestors and while they do not worship them, they often cite great leaders of the past for inspiration. The dead are considered heroes much more than the living, as the living still may err in their lives, whereas the fates of the dead have been sealed. Dwarves are burried in clan-tombs, which are often visited by the clans of modern times. Such tombs are considered among the most importatn structures in nearly any Kogolor city or town or village. If someone dies and is not entombed in the clan-tomb, it is considered an extremely sad and unlucky event. Foreign Relations The Kogolor get along rather amiably with almost all their neighbors, as is summed up in the HW boxed set. They have very little contact with the Oltec, but the two peoples are hardly at odds. The constant sending of raiding parties between the Kogolor and Schattenalfen, through Oltec lands, has caused some trouble, but the Oltec see the Kogolor generally as allies against the pale elves. Diet The Kogolor are not at all a vegitarian nation. They live off the meat of elks, mountain goats and similar animals of the mountains. This high-protein, high-calorie diet leads Kogolor to develop the strength and rotundness of the Outer World dwarves, a trait that they did not possess upon arrival in the Hollow World. Entertainment The Kogolor enjoy themselves in many ways. Games which we might describe as "children's games" are played by Kogolor of all ages, even dwarves in their 300s enjoying silliness above many other things. They have not truly developed sports like the Azcan have. Kogolor children like to explore the caves that abound throughout Kogolor territory, as do older dwarven spelunkers. Kogolor enjoy music, especially from wind instruments or vocals, and at the heart of any Kogolor celebration there is bound to be joyous music. Kogolor dwarves also work well with sculpture and many towns have a statue or two near the center of t own, while cities offer many well-crafted statues for display. The Kogolor are not interested greatly in forms of art other than sculpture. The Kogolor truly enjoy drinking as well and are the only Hollow World culture to have widespread drinking contests. Merriment is central to Kogolor philosophy. Skills,Crafts,Professions Most of the Kogolor practices and trades are discussed in the boxed set. As mentioned in another section of this HWR, few professions are considered better than another and there is no truly demeaning profession from the view of Kogolor society. Practi cally all dwarves take up one major area of study, though this study leads to the equivalence of a Profession skill (non-weapon proficiency by AD&D rules) only some of the time. Kogolor characters are not required as a result to select a Profession skill . There are Kogolors who master in each profession, of course, and these people are highly respected by their community and acclaim of their deeds often spreads much further than praise for 'adventurer' types. Some of these dwarves go on to be known across the entire mountain chain, but such dwarves come only 1 or 2 per generation. Kogolor Society overview(this paragraph entirely by Thorfinn Tait) What we are essentially talking about, then, is pretty much a classless, very friendly society. Most people will be fairly content, with very few (if any) criminals or trouble makers. Most of these will come from the younger dwarves, and I think they should be dealt with in as lenient a way as possible, except for really bad crimes that cannot be undone. All part of the "growing up independently" thing. The clan does however look out for these young dwarves in a passive way, to try and avert any really big mistakes on their part. So, dwarven society remains almost entirely trouble-free internally, with no major plotting, scheming or otherwise. The people will be friendly to outsiders until they are given a reason to react otherwise. Military The Kogolor do not have a standing army. All the dwarves of the mountains are trained in the use of arms, though, and each community can be organized for defense easily. This is the result of peacetime preparations in the cities, town and villages that occur bimonthly, to keep the folks "on their toes". While the Kogolor are lacking in a true army, they do have military leaders who step to the forefront in times of trouble. Such leaders lead the lives of normal citizens the rest of the time, working like any other Kogolor. Near the Krugel border, the practices are taken much more seriously, and in totally peaceful areas it may be treated more like how school children treat fire drills in the US. Kogolor who are in good shape are required to serve some time manning a fort(ress) if there is one nearby, to ensure the constant defence along the border. None of these fortresses or forts is manned by career soldiers, but the turns overlap so that the composition of the troops is never more than 20% newcomers. If a Kogolor is needed by his family to work, (s)he is not required to help man a fort but must still take part in the military readiness tests. Skiing (Thanks greatly to Thorfinn Tait, whose idea this was originally. Never would have though of it on my own) One thing unique to the Kogolor is their recent discovery of skiing. The inventor of skis, still only in his middle years, is one of the few nationally known figures. The Kogolor are already at work in using this invention to patrol their northern borders better, but such a plan is limited to a few test groups for the moment. The hobby figures well into the Kogolor idea of entertainment and has spread nationally. Many new ideas are being incorporated, some wise, some foolish, some just odd, as Kogolor seek to make skiing more useful and more fun. Whether the idea will spread to another Hollow World culture such as the Oltecs is still unknown. Note on Names Okay, I personally form names by mixing syllables together till I think I have a name (ex. Kirina, Goralba, Dalowin, Mardelios, Galtin are all examples of chars I have invented). Most Kogolor names have been formed around a similar tendency, with the intention of making 'hard' sounding names (few 's's or 'r's, lots on 'n's and 'd's). Kogolor names could also be derived from Germanic or Swiss names realistically IMO as those areas seem to be those on which Kogolor culture is loosely based. And of course you can always follow the pattern given in the HW boxed set, though that is too Tolkienesque for my tastes, especially seeing how Kogolor dwarves are not based to a wide deal on Tolkien's dwarves. Of course, as with all sections personal preference wins out. Critters The areas of the Kogolor mountains are home to both highly fantastic beings and to normal, natural ones. For the mostpart, the areas close to the Kogolor cities, villages, towns and forts are restricted to the common animals that would be found in the mountains. The further and further you go from these inhabited areas, the greater the chance that a more mythical, fantastical being such as a wyvern or mountain giant or red dragon will be found. Deep Glaurants There is a Deep Glaurant city near the Kogolor territories. The presence of each group is unknown to the other. The Deep Glaurant city, Ylriark, is located several miles below the surface of SE Kogolor territory, much closer to the Hollow World than the Known. Several Kogolor expeditions have run across underground highways dug by the Deep Glaurants and the presence of a group of intelligent beings in that area is suspected. If the two communities ever discovered each other, violence is likely but not a definite possibility. The Deep Glaurants of the city are not much like the ones described in the Creature Catalog. Further from other peoples and beings, they have become herbivores and have developed a primitive culture, though nothing to match most humanoids of Mystara. (Note:Feel free to remove or tinker with this idea, as you can with all of these. Nothing is set in stone of course and everything is up to the individual DM.) Kogolor Architecture/City layout Kogolor plan cities out well beforehand and allow for growth and how to cope with it. Places don't become disorganized as they grow, not becoming sprawled out messes. The basic Kogolor street layout is: ----- |\|/| --X-- |/|\| ----- 3 vertical streets, 3 horizontal, with 2 diagonal and one huge center intersection..no area is to far from any other. There are huge long avenues running from the city centre to the edges. Nice, neat and dwarf-like. A larger city would consist of several large blocks of these, with the diagonals continuing through several squares and the other streets heading all the way through town. Coinage The Kogolor coinage consists of the Bifric (50 GP, a large circular coin with the emblem of Garal Glitterlode embossed on it), the smaller but similarily designed Gilder (1 GP), the squarish coin of the same size of the Gilder known as the Platen that is composed of silver (1 SP) and the slightly rarer small copper coin known as the Kufpfen(1 CP). The Bifric is rather rare, the Platen being the most commonly used coin. The latter two coins have the faces of great Kogolor heroes on them, one the founder of Bergholm (on the Platen) and the other Grilban Kogolor, a key figure in the foundation of the Hollow World community (on the Kufpfen). The coins are made in smithies near the mining towns. "We love your adherence to democratic principles and democratic processes" - - George Bush, 1981, to dictator Ferdinard Marcos ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #83 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #84 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, May 22 1997 Volume 02 : Number 084 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:30:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [Mystara] Kogolor HWR version 2 part 2/2 HWR4:The Kogolor Part 2 In this section: Examples of PLACES,CLANS,NPCs Dwarf-Druids Disclaimer Places of note: Bergholm A small mining town in the south of the country. Most of the valuable ores used by the Kogolor in trade are extracted by the dwarves who live here. A rather wealthy town with the riches distributed evenly, it has the highest GP-per-capita of any Kogolor town. There is one dominant clan, which conducts most of the trade with Kolmstat, that being the Silverfeet. None of the other clans seem to resent this though, at least they will not admit to it. Ruud Ruud is a backwater village among major Kogolor settings. It and its accompanying fort, Fort Aath, were once vital in turning back eastern Krugel raids. With time, the conflict moved westwards and Aath fell into disuse. Currently it is a rather rusted-out place, scarcely manned by citizens of Ruud. The town itself has settled back into an agricultural lifestyle, content to work the hillsides and lead on with their quiet lives. Olarh A town that sprung up due to its proximity to two military bases more than for anything else, Olarh has developed into a fair-sized community. The people have a sense of security and have allowed themselves to build the basis for a place that may grow into a city with time. Several clans have taken residence in Olarh and annually small ones seem to arrive from the countryside to expan the city. Olarh may become a big part of Kogolor civilization in the near future. Kolmstat While listed as the capital of the Kogolor people, it is only assumed so by foreigners. The Kogolor do not have a unified government and as such have no national capital. Kolmstat IS the biggest city of the Kogolor's, the best defended and the wealthiest. Trade over the river has become profitable, with traders bypassing Krugel lands to reach Neathar traders. All the powerful clans of the Kogolor have members in Kolmstat and in times of crisis it is to this city that the people look for leadership. The city as a whole is much like a human one, just built on a smaller scale to accomadate the residents. Yoht Perhaps the lone 'troubled' Kogolor community. The town was built over one of the northernmost Borrower locales. As a result, the place has a tendency towards insanity and corruption not normally seen among the dwarven peoples. The atmosphere is notably different than in most dwarven communities and as a result most Kogolor avoid it by a wide distance. There are few smallish communities within reasonable range of Yoht and it is likely to remain so. A likely trouble spot in the future. Note:this burrower is underground and sleeping so cannot engineer the influence and plotting of the 2 Nithian Tower Burrowers. Examples of clans: Kogolor The dominant clan upon the arrival of the dwarven peoples to the Hollow World, the Kogolor clan is no longer of great importance. They have seen themselves shrink in the Hollow World as other clans caught up to the Kogolor in many fields, while the Kogolor, never very large, were spread out so much that the endogamous rules limited expansion greatly, with few Kogolor in each city for another to choose from. Currently, they number only around a thousand, still shrinking and still very spread out. The use of their clan name to refer to all Hollow World dwarves, a practice only common to outsiders, may cause confusion as no other dwarf who lives in these mountains refers to themselves as Kogolor. In this HWR, I only use that term because it is so commonly used to described them all. Dwarves refer to themselves by name, clan, occupation, but never as 'dwarves' or 'Kogolors' (except of course for the Kogolor clan) Kogolor dwarves are still of some importance, and are generally well-educated and of high social standing. Dankara Dankara is a medium-sized clan, numbering around 10 thousand. It has members in many towns and villages and a large district to itself in most of the cities. The clan is fairly normal in most aspects, with one exception. They tend, much more than any other clan in the region, to specialize in nature study. The Denkaran library in Kolmstat is home to many excellent works on agricultural practice and on Oltec druids. These dwarves tend to be farmers more than any other, and with their excellent knowledge of crops do a good job of it. They are still represented in many fields and walks of life, but they are widely known and reknowned for this major interest. (Note:see dwarf-druids near the end of this HWR if you wish to allow Denkaran dwarf-clerics to be treated differently due to their clan's nature focus) Siltarn The Siltarnee are the dwarves who reside in the village of Siltarn and are members of clan Siltarn. The village is entirely composed of members of the clan. No other town, village or city in the mountains has more than two or three Siltarn dwarves residing in them. If you do see a member of the Siltarnee outside the village and they are not there on a trading mission or the like, it is almost definite that they are an outcast among their people for one reason or another. Few dwarves have heard of the Siltarnee or their village, as they are just another village on the map. Drauglain A largish clan, the Drauglain number around seventy thousand. They have clanholds in each major city, as well as a large district of the city to their own. They have high-ranking priests, common brewers, famous craftsmen, everyday farmers and criminals in their number. It would be impossible to find a walk of life which no Drauglain practice. The clan symbol of a deer antler crossed over by a shovel can be found in many residencies across the land, and these symbols are beacons of refuge to a Drauglain traveler. Customs are the same from city to town to village to town to city to village, and the Drauglain culture is rather distinct, though no outsider would probably be able to pick up on the differences. The clan is neither considered 'high' nor 'low'. It just is very well-known and present in all places. Thurdann Yoht is a horrid place to live, with its rampant insanity, corruption and violence. Thurdann is a small clan that exists almost entirely within the borders of Yoht. Its small size leads to many mental disorders, with the endogamous nature of the dwarvish clans. The fact that it is in Yoht only increases these problems. Few members of the clan are at all stable and many of these possess an odd quirk or two. It is amazing that the clan can continue to exist with such a situation but it seems to thrive in the odd town. Several of the great 'evil folk' mentioned in Kogolor stories are members of the Thurdann. Examples of Kogolor NPCs high and low Matridi Rostun History:Matridi was born 91 cycles ago in a small village in western Kogolor lands. From an early age, he was involved in his uncle's trading business that worked throghoutout several villages and towns. He worked in increasingly important roles, event ually working as a trader by himself, trusted to negotiate deals by himself well. He has acquired much knowledge of the far western Kogolor lands in this time, but his wandering life has bothered him sometimes as he wishes to settle down sometime. Personality:Matridi seeks the best for himself, his family, his clan and his uncle's trading business. This doesn't mean that he isn't a kind dwarf or a caring one. He will never what he considers an unfair deal and never will make a trade that he know s will come back to hurt him or the one who deals with. He avoids trading with anyone who may be considered of a bad reputation. He cares greatly for his family, and would give anything to ensure their safety and well-being. His primary interests lie i n opening up the Oltec lands for increased trade with the Kogolor and he has made friends and business contacts among the eastern Oltec. Appearance:A rather fit dwarf as a lad, he has steadily become rounder with time and wealth. He is still in good shape overall. He has a dark brown beard and long brown hair, both common traits of the Liswern clan of which he is a member. He dresses h imself in fancy clothes at home, but when on the road (which is usually) he wears simple traveling clothes, including the traditional Kogolor cloak. Combat Notes:Matridi does need to protect himself from trouble while on trading ventures so is armed when on the road. He is a 1st level dwarf. AC 7 (Leather); hp 5; At 1; D 1-8 (sword); save D1; ML 9; AL N;S 10, I 14, W 15, D 7, Co 12, Ch 16. Languag es:Kogolor, Neathar, Oltec. General Skills: Signalling (Kogolor Yodelling) (I), Mountaineering (D), Bargaining +1 (Ch), Knowledge (Eastern Kogolor, Western Oltec lands) (I) Gerston Thurdann History:Gerston was born over 180 cycles ago just outside of the Yoht center square. Growing up in the extremely odd town, he led anything but a normal childhood. From a young age, he was subject to the same insanities caused by the Burrower that all Y oht residents were. Compounding the problems was his membership in the small and inbred-damaged clan of Thurdann. He became a very violent, power-obsessed individual. Doing anything to seek power, he killed off several other Thurdann clan members whom he perceived as being obstacles in his path to power. Today, he heads the clan which all Kogolor know to fear due to their instability. Personality:Gerston is a very cruel and heartless individual. He believes himself destined to one day rule over all the dwarves of the Kogolor lands, not just the clan or even the town. He will do anything to achieve these goals. (Whether he is being directly manipulated by the Burrower or not is up to the individual DM, though the direct influence a sleeping one can have is also questionable.) He cares nothing for anyone, save himself. In addition to this extreme self-focus and power-craving, he al so is victim to a phobia of snakes and fits of manic-depressive behavior. Highly unpredictable. Appearance:Gerston takes careful attention to his appearance and is usually dressed in fancy clothes. His beard and hair are always well-trimmed and not a stain marks his clothes at all times. From his appearance, most people would assume him a 'proper ' , stable being, not at all the lunatic he in fact is. He is slightly stronger than the average dwarf, but does not carry around excess weight. Gerston is a bit taller than the average male Kogolor. Combat Notes: He is a 7th level dwarf. AC 3 (Chain, Horned Shield, Dexterity Bonus); hp 34; At 1; D 1-8+2 (sword plus strength bonus); save D7; ML 10; AL C;S 16, I 13, W 8, D 13, Co 14, Ch 13. Languages:Kogolor, Neathar. General Skills:Signalling (Yod el) (I), Mountaineering (D), Persuasion (Ch), Hide in Shadows (D), Bravery (W), Intimidate (S). Gerston is also armed with a poison-tipped knife or two at *all* times, concealed. He is an Expert with daggers. Anorada Siltarn History and Personality:Anorada Siltarn was born 217 cycles ago in the town of Siltarn. She was married fairly young, at age 36, and is the mother of 4 children. She was born into a rather poor family of the village, but is not looked down upon for thi s. She is not wealthy now, either, but is very happy with her life. Anorada contributes to the town with her farming work and as such is respected as any other Kogolor would be. She tries hard to rear her children well and to do her job. She accepts h er role in Kogolor society and asks for nothing more, and is accepted by Kogolor society as a result. She is, like almost any Kogolor, a follower of Garal Glitterlode. Appearance:Anorada is of average height for a female dwarf, but is a tad thinner than would be expected for one of her stature. She wears simple peasant clothing, except for special events like the upcoming wedding of her son. She tries to look her best though her efforts are often hampered by her hard work in the fields. Her clothes are usually tidy, and her hair well-trimmed. She could easily get lost in a crowd, with her common appearance. Combat Notes:She is a 1st level dwarf. AC 8(Dexterity Bonus);hp 4; At 0;D 0; save D1; ML 9;AL N;S 9, I 8, W 11, D 13, Co 11, Ch 11. Languages:Kogolor, Neathar. General Skills:Knowledge (Farming) (I+2), Singalling (Yodel) (I), Mountaineering (D) Stillan Steelfinder History and Personality:Stillan Steelfinder has lived all 348 cycles of his life in the town of Bergholm. For the past 74 years he has served as leader of his clan in that town. He has led the Steelfinders well during the town's rise to prosperity. Wh ile he knows his clan will never reach the importance of the Silverfeet, he wishes them to do well and they have. Now a great great grandfather, he knows his days are numbered and he is hard at work finding a successor. Due to his work so far, the clan likely will not have any problems in the near future, barring a major crisis in the town. He just wants to make sure that things will be in capable hands when he passes on. He is generally a kind soul, though he is a tad miserly with his money. Appearance:Stillan, a dwarf of average height in his youth, is now stooped over slightly with age. His hair is nearly all gray, from the top of his not-bald head to the end of his beard. He dresses in fine clothes and always makes sure his clothes are neat and orderly. He still possesses the remnants of a strength he developed through many years of toiling in the mines. His features are very weathered with age and time. Combat Notes:He is a 5th level dwarf. AC 11(Dexterity Penalty);hp 20; at 0;D 0;save D5; ML 11;AL N;S 9, I 14, W 14, D 5, Co 8, Ch 12. Languages:Kogolor, Neathar. General Skills:Signalling (Yodel)(I), Mountaineering (D), Leadership (Ch+1), Caving (W), Ba rgaining (Ch) Niggalda Surilan History:Niggalda Surilan was born 261 cycles ago in the small town of Knarr in northern Kogolor. Always interested in learning, she served an apprenticeship to the local historian for several years. When her time came to serve in the nearby Fort Aath. In the few battles that occurred in her time there, she fared well. During that time though, she witnessed her head trainer charged with treachery against the Fort. Not believing the charges set against him, she helped work with the Klaurmann bought in for the trial. While the trainer wound up being found guilty, the incident led Niggalda to study more and more of the Kogolor justice system. She studied with the Klaurmann of Knarr upon returning home, putting aside her studies of history, and after the requisite 10 years she achieved the status of Klaurmann. Nowadays, she is the chief judge of the town. She is married and has one child, whom she cares for greatly and is trying to get to follow in her footsteps. Personality:Niggalda's main interest is seeing justice served in any case. She has learned from her first experience with law, and now is known as a very impartial judge, hearing both sides and deciding based on the facts, not on forknowledge of the peo ple involved. Outside of the courtroom, she is a very different person. She is kind and caring to all in the community, a fact that has helped her during her time as judge, as the people respect her persona. She still bears an interest in Kogolor histo ry and often is found reading over records of the past, both those relating to law and those not. Living in a fairly peaceful town, even by Kogolor standards, Niggalda has less work than a typical Klaurmann and as such has the leisure time to become the scholar she is and still devote time to her family and to the community. While her war record was not spectacular, she is often asked to lead the bimonthly war preparations in her village. She is one of the most respected citizens of the town, more resp ected even than the typical Klaurmann. Appearance:Niggalda, while neither beautiful nor ugly, is not average either appearance-wise. She is below average height for a female dwarf, but is also at least average weight and very strong. She wears the typical grey Klaurmann cap at all times, ma rking her out in a crowd, and wears fine, but usually ill-kept clothing. Her eyes are a shade of grey somewhat atypical among the Kogolor. Her hair is still the light brown they have been most of her life, cut rather short. She does not care much for her appearance, but knows that it makes an impression on strangers so does try to look somewhat dignified, an achievement usually attained. Combat Notes:She is a 6th level dwarf. AC 9 (4, Chain and Shield, if trouble arises); hp 31; at 1; D 1 - 12+2 (sword, strength bonus, Skilled-carried only in times of crisis or in battle practices);save D6; ML 11; AL L;S 16, I 15, W 15, D 9, Co 11, Ch 1 4. Languages:Kogolor,Neathar,Krugel. General Skills:Signalling (Yodel)(I),Mountaineering (D), Knowledge (Kogolor Law Code) (I+2), Profession (Klaurmann) (I), Knowledge (NW Kogolor History) (I) Hernril Cagnon History and Personality:Hernril Cagnon was interested in travelling the mountains for nearly all of his 205 years. He grew up in the village Brillan on the summit of a mountain and always loved the long trek downward when the family went to the town of Yavi at the base of the mountain. An inventive sort, he always fiddling with simple mechanical devices. Naturally, most of these involved ways of travelling either up or down the mountain. Some, like a pulley-type device, were of use, but most were not . Then he hit on his greatest invention:skis. As explained in the Skiing section of the HWR, his invention has spread all over, as has his reputation. He is always amazed to see the ideas other dwarves have to utilize his invention and he is even more thrilled to see modifications. Rather than seeing these as challenging to his invention, he sees them as improvements, or more often, his inventive side likes seeing the odd concepts of others. Hardly the standard Kogolor, he works no job other than his inventions, a strange way to make a living. He is interested mostly in the new, the different. Even more of a young child at heart than most Kogolor, he sees the main goal of life as to have fun and experience the new. He could care less that he is a folk hero already. Appearance:Hernril definitely has a 'mad scientist' look to himself. His hair and beard are rarely combed or trimmed. His clothes are often ruffled, torn and stained from his latest meals. Still fairly young and unmarried, he is rather handsome, but p ays scant attention to women (other than fellow inventors, a purely academic interest). He is never armed, as war and battle are far too serious an endeavor for Hernril. Combat Notes:He is a 1st level dwarf despite his fame. AC 9;hp 5;at 0;d 0;save D1;ML 6 (this does not mean he is brave. He is rather fearless. He knows he is not a warrior, though, and hence flees from the sight of an armed opponent);AL C;S 8, I 14, W 14, D 12, Co 8, Ch 15. Languages:Kogolor, Neathar. General Skills:Mountaineering (D+1), Signalling (Yodel)(I), Craftsman (Ski-Maker)(I)(He is not a great craftsman or inventor. He just made a simple, albeit useful invention through constant trying and tampering. His more complex inventions usually fail marvelously, which does not daunt him in the least. Few members of his town would be mad if an invention damaged their property, as his inventions have helped them as well in making the trip down and b ack up the mountain) Dwarf-Druids Dwarf-Druids, if allowed, are a mix of dwarf-clerics and druids as can be guessed. If they are allowed, I suggest that only Denkarans can be dwarf-druids and Denkaran dwarves cannot be dwarf-clerics then. They follow the rules for dwarf-clerics with th e following exceptions. Their cultural weapons must meet Kogolor (not dwarf-cleric) standards and be made of wood (staff, club, sling or all-wood spears or swords or arrows or whatever which would naturally inflict less damage). Their armor is limited t o Leather and only wood shields may be wielded. Dwarf-druids are limited to level 10 but have access to druidic and clerical spells as per a druid. (Only spells allowed within the Spell of Preservation can be used, of course). Normal druid restrictions on spell use (evil/good oriented magic not allowed) apply. Dwarf-druids must be neutral. They do not worship Garal Glitterlode, but rather the elemental forces themselves. All notes under 'Druid Philosophy' in the Companion rulebook apply to Denkaran Dwarf-Druids. Dwarf-druids also have a natural ability to sense the approach of snowstorms up to a day in advance. A 16 wisdom is required to be a Dwarf-druid, as Hollow World restrictions apply. Disclaimer This HWR is not intended for profit. It is for use with the TSR-created setting the Hollow World, a boxed set that is basically required to derive much use from it, as well as the OD&D rules. Also, the information in the Poor Wizard's Almanac seems to me inconsistent on some counts with the information given elsewhere so some of it is ignored. The coinage section has been used in this HWR, but otherwise nothing else. If you wish to mix my work with the PWA, feel free to of course, if you can find a way. "We love your adherence to democratic principles and democratic processes" - - George Bush, 1981, to dictator Ferdinard Marcos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:13:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos On Wed, 21 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-05-21 15:12:52 EDT, you write: > > << I've thought of adding some _religion_ into Mystara. Here is the > Church of Karameikos seen from a different Light. Tell me what you think>> > Vey Cool Dude! Here are a few comments... Thanks :) > < > Very good introductory concepts. Fits in with all the stuff about Asterius > (he was known as a Prophet IMC version of Blackmoor too). I haven't had much time reading your Blackmoor timeline yet, but thats good. My idea was to create a difference between Traladaran Immortals and Karameikan ones. The Traladaran faith is kind of like hero worship, while the Karameikan faith preaches of the White Light an impersonal force and its prophets. > < to protect us against Evil and lead us to the Path of Illumination. > These are the most wise of the Immortals; Asterius, Ilsundal, Kagyar, > Valerias and Vanya>> > Perhaps you can fit in something about the schisms of the various Temples of > Thyatis into this; perhaps there is some antagonism between the Sun Templars > (Ixion) and the followers of Ilsundal in the Empire of Thyatis Im planning on making something on the Church of thyatis and its various Temples, but there is very litle information in DotE. I'm not even sure which Immortals were the original Thyatian ones. Im thinking of making the Church of thyatis something like Roman Mythology. It is probably inspired by the Old Traldaran faith. > << Demons: Even the Immortals can be seduced by Darkness. So it was with > Thanatos, the firstborn of the White Light. At that time he was a > luminous being, but he was the first who discovered the Darkness. And > thus he became its most powerful slave. For he is our greatest Enemy and > even Asterius fears him. Only those who remain on the Path of White > Light are safe from him. Other Immortals believed his lies and we can > only trust the most wise. > > Death: We come from the White Light. And to the White Light we shall > return. But only if our Soul is unstained by Sin. When we die our souls > are plunged into Limbo. Asterius will lead the unstained soul to his > realm, the Crystal Halls of the Seven Moons. Stained Souls must remain > in Limbo till Time purifies them. But this time of purification is > painfull and your soul is unprotected from the Demons.>> > > Great stuff! Keep the Demons... I don;t know about the "Seven Moons" > though... maybe Five, to match the number of Immortals in the Karameikan > Church? Seven is just your basic magical number. At first I thought the Karameikan heaven being lit by only one moon. But really brightly ofcourse. > << Afterlife: The Pure Souls shall dine with the Immortals in the Crystall > Halls of the Seven Moons, forever enlightened by the White Light. > > The Book of Jowett: The Wise Oliver Jowett has written this Holy Book to > guide us through the hardships of life. >> > > I'd move the writer of the Holy Texts back a bit, maybe the Karameikan Church > had it's origins during the schims of the 6th century; besides, Oliver Jowett > doesn't seem the type to inspire such fervor... remember, he's not a zealot, > just a jentle fellow True. Jowetts writings should only consern the brighter sides of the religion. Jowetts basic idea is that all sins can be washed from your soul if you make penance properly. More dogmatic followers of the church would probably use old scrolls and books from the Thyatian Church describing the sins and the torments of afterlife to a detail. Hell(tartarus?) etc.. The Book of Jowett would be more like the New Testamente. Whereas the older scriptures(of Thyatian faith) will reval a more malign side of the divine) > > << Angels: Divine brilliant beings sent from asterius to guide and protect > us. Eternal messengers > > Demons: Alphaks, Demogorgon and Orcus and their servants. Beware these > foul beings as they attempt to lead you off the Path of the > White Light.>> > > What could be used as "Angels" in D&D? I was thinking maybe Archons and > related creatures; less human-like than RW angels (hearkening back to the > style of ancient religions like ancient Zoroastrianism, etc). Plenty of > Demons and then some (though "Fiends" is as good a term; Baatezu and > Tanar'ri, though.... no thanks)! Great start man, let's see more! Angels is basically a term for several creatures of good. My first thought was the servants( something like Titans) of Asterius and his fellow Imortals. (What would the look like?) But the term would also include the Guardian Angels, Chtul mentioned from Limbo and the Hommuncoli Patrick spoke of. The Lawful Hummonculi are called Fylgar. They appear as winged babies/black cats/hawks. I dont think it makes sense that they are actual immortals, but rather servants of those. more later.. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:31:03 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks At 19:34 21-05-97 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 21 May 1997 Deathwatch wrote: >>Why does it seem that most cool Mystara stuff is on AOL? :) > >Is it? If so, I'm sure some of us non-AOL people would appreciate >kindly AOL subscribers redistributing that stuff to the list... > >Any volunteers? ;-) > >Thorf. I think there is a copyright problem or something with that... Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:30:13 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: netbooks At 11:18 21-05-97 -0500, you wrote: >Form: Memo >Text: (16 lines follow) ><>> > >just a guess, but it could be that it's TSR's official corporate presence. >We've had over 6 folders of 500 posts each, including a running novel, >contributed to by all, that I'm STILL trying to edit and compile (no mean >feat - gets added to every day) and numerous fun discussion, usually egged >on by Bruce. > >LT Brant D. Guillory >3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR >TF Supply Officer >CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil >PH (408) 386-2137 >DSN 686-2710/2137 > >Use Proportional Font: true Yeah, that would explain it :) Damn, thats the only reason why I would want to have AOL.... Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:53:26 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Achelos Adventure in W. Karameikos Patrick wrote: > > Hi everyone. > A couple months ago I sent my description of society in the Cruth Lowlands > of Western Karameikos to the list. I am almost done detailing an idea for > a major adventure to help rectify the problems which exist between the > Thyatians and Traladarans in this area. It involves the immortal > Chardastes and much of the stuff described in my setting descriotion, > including the magic army used to defeat the Traladarans during the conqest > by Thyatis in 900 AC (would you believe the magic army is actually an > artifact created by Chardastes for this very purpose?) > > Anyway, when I first posted this setting, there was some interest, and I > was wondering if anyone was interested in seeing the more-detailed > adventure. If so, let me know:) > > Patrick Yes, Patrik, I'm really interested. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:53:18 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > The Church of Karameikos > > The White Light: The White Light is what we came from. In the beginning > the world was created from the White Light. The White Light is Knowledge, > Purity and Illumination > > The Darkness: As the word came between the White Light and the people, > the world cast a shadow. People living in the darkness forgot the beauty > and purity of the White Light. They learned about greed and selfishness, > and thus, Evil came upon the world. I'd say that in the beginning it was the light: there weren't people but only souls. Than we got a body and, with the body, all its mortal temptations. The bodies casted the shadows and the darkness came. > The Moon: There were many Prophets in the Old world. But Evil was also > present. The Greatest of Prophets, Asterius saw that Darkness was evil, > and warned the people of the Old World. But they would not listen. As > Evil turned upon itself, the Old World was destryed, but the White > Lights spared Asterius. > Asterius asceneded to dwell among the Immortals, and he > created the Moon to reflect the White Light at night. Great idea! I think the Church of Karameikos could have a special religious service every night of full moon. And every follower must make amends for his sins before the next full moon; otherwise he'll have to spend a longer time in Limbo, before he can be admitted at the Crystal Halls of the Five Moons. What do you think? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:20:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-22 13:22:04 EDT, Diego wrote: << In Latin sun is called 'sol'. So I'd call the homplane of Opal 'Solium', which means 'Of the Suns'. >> Taken under advisement; I will most likely change it to this... it sounds better to boot! <> Well, I'm partial to Tellus due to another literary influence... R. A. Heinlein; Tellus Tertius was the colony founded by Lazarus Long and company in his "Future Histories". <> Well, most of them are my own, so not as of yet; I have done some work on the Spirit Plane, though... the "Treatsie" is on the back burner for now as I develop my web pages... A number of them are from various moules and sourcebooks, so there are some found throughout the canonial Mystara materail. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 97 14:45:32 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] a Varellyan Timeline (BC 4000 - BC 1000) Hey guys!, As some of you might know, I said I'd do a timeline for Varellya, in response to recent questions as to who they were - here's the first installment: Timeline of Varellya BC 4000: The region that is to become the Vulture Peninsula is a semi-tropical land, with rich soils and rolling meadows populated by primitive Neathar tribes. BC 3000: Great Rain of Fire. Blackmoor is obliterated and is now the north pole. The indigenous Neathar tribes, dismayed at the ecological changes to their home, migrate elsewhere. The peninsula has become drier due to its new location, and the changes in the wind directions. It is now a semi-arid land (various sources). BC 2400: By this time, scattered elvish clans have passed through the region over the course of their migrations. These elves are not part of Ilsundal's group, but are part of a hitherto unknown expedition, of which the Hatwa elves may be a part. One clan, desperate to lighten its load, leaves behind various tools, tomes, and other simple technological items. BC 2000: Other Neathar tribes (at Bronze Age technological levels) arrive in the region, and settle here. They discover the remaining elvish items, and, after many years of study, manage to decipher the various notes left behind. This allows them to advance much more quickly than would otherwise be possible, and also allows them to better adapt to their surroundings (partly from HW migration map). They also adopt the elvish script as their own. BC 1850: The first king of the newly-formed nation of Varellya (Land of Our Destiny), named Tharl, is crowned. King Tharl embarks upon a plan to improve the lot of the average Varellyan, and to improve already-existing irrigation systems. The capital city is named in his honour. By this time, the technological level of the Varellyans has progressed to the Iron Age. BC 1700: Varellya is once again a rich land. A complicated web of sophisticated irrigation ditches covers the entire peninsula. Engineering feats, such as aqueducts, are becoming commonplace, thanks to the lore of elvish engineering, and human ingenuity. With an expanding population and growing cities, colonists set out across the sea and inland to expand Varellyan holdings. BC 1500: The Isle of Cestia is discovered by Androk Thran, an adventurer of some repute among the Varellyans. Word of this discovery is sent to the capital city, Tharl. Within twenty years, colonists arrive on the southwestern shores of the island, and the foundations of the town of Androkia are laid. The province that is to occupy the entire island will also have this name. The region that was first settled by the Varellyans will become the xenophobic kingdom of Androkia, of which Haldemar will learn (some elements of Dragon #157, HW migration map). Contact is also established with the Oceanians, trade develops. BC 1400: The Varellyan civilization has expanded inland to the beginning of the Adakkian Sound, by the Brasol Range. Contact is made with the halflings living there. Halfling lands are appropriated by King Prial to build a great port city in his honour at this location. The is the beginning of a 100 year long feud which will result in the halfling migration to Brun. BC 1374: King Prial II, eager to continue his father's tradition of excessiveness, plans the construction of a grand series of temples and paved roads around the port city of Priallus. This would take away even more halfling land. Local halfling clan leaders lodge protests with the local governor, but to no avail. BC 1326: King Naxith decides to rid his nation of the "halfling problem" once and for all. For the past twenty years the conflict has intensified to the extent of open war throughout western Varellya. Several army divisions are called in to "restore order". BC 1300: The Halflings, though excellent fighters, are woefully outnumbered by the enemies. They are forced to flee en masse by a great fleet of sailing ships to the north (modified HW). By this time the Oceanians are being threatened by the Night Dragons. BC 1200: Some Oceanians migrate to Cestia. They are accepted by the locals (HW migration map). BC 1000: King Milen leads his Traldar followers across the Sea of Dread to Davania. Landing east of the modern Jungle Coast, they press upriver, until they reach the Meghala Kimata plain, where they settle and found the kingdom of Milenia. On the Jungle Coast itself, the Antalian-descended slaves of the Nithians overthrow their masters. These people would become the Thyatians, Kerendans, Hattians, and Hinterlanders (HW). Whew! That's the first installment. I'll bring Part II, covering the Varellyan history between the years BC 1000 - AC 0, along shortly. Enjoy!!!!! Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:58:49 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] CM7: The Tree of Life At 21.57 20/05/97 -0400, you wrote: ><< Does the adventure have a date indicating when it happens? I assume the > answer is no, in which case should it happen in a future Almanac? >> > >Given that the adventure begins in Alfheim, it should definitely predate the >fall of Alfheim to the Shadow Elves. In fact, I would prefer to play it that >way >as it gives a third escape route to the Alfheim Elves. once it has been >played out. Or maybe it can be played in the future if Alfheim Elves will come back to Alfheim... ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:22:29 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Karameikos Church wanted!! I have unwittingly erased the post detailing the Church of Karameikos by Haavard (IIRC).. please, could you resend it to me? You know my address, thanks. Also, adding to the thread, i think D&D already has its angels: the Archons, which are the Ultimate Lawful (of course, this doesn't mean they're good, but only that they despise chaos... and this arises an interesting question: how could an Immortal from Energy have created Archons, Champions of Law, if Energy is the foremost chaotic Sphere of them all after Entropy?) As for demons, why not to call them Daimons (more philosophycally) or even Draculi, which is a slavic term for demon (and the karameikos church could have borrowed it from the Traladaran language)? DM ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #84 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #85 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, May 23 1997 Volume 02 : Number 085 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:22:58 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks >>>Why does it seem that most cool Mystara stuff is on AOL? :) >>Is it? If so, I'm sure some of us non-AOL people would appreciate >>kindly AOL subscribers redistributing that stuff to the list... >>Any volunteers? ;-) >> >>Thorf. > I think there is a copyright problem or something with that... > Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl i just read over the terms of service i was going to post the section but everyone would be asleep by the end of it plus youd probably have to read it a few times to figure out what the hell theyre trying to say let me summarize: aol has the rights to everything on aol including posts to folders once you post it they can do whatever they want with it aol users can do what they want too but only for their own personal use the writer of the post is the only other one with full rights mystaros mentioned putting his posts on a web page he can do that with no problem but if he put other peoples posts there would be anyways thats my interpetation you could always check out tsr online yourself with one of aols free packages i think theyve sent me a thousand of them - ---Crip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:14:11 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Time Paradoxes Again with this time stuff. Wonder if any of you does remember the Plane of Time (Entrem?) from WotI. According to the passing of time there, there is a chance that when the unwary traveller comes back to his plane of origin (be it the Prime, or another plane or another dimension) one of this 3 facts occurs: 1. he returns in the present 2. he returns in the future 3. he returns in the past. Now, what really upsets me is the 3rd occurrence, cause if u remember, the Chronomancer supplement (i know that many of u consider it a piece of crap, but since it's the only thing we have detailing time travel in D&D i accept its theories) specifically states that "there cannot be 2 selves in the same timeframe" unless of course the second "self" belongs to temporal prime (sever lifeline spell for humans can do this). So, according to this, what will happen to the unfortunate soul that travels backwards and meets his other self? Does he return back to the past or is he sucked in a Maelstrom and lost in Temporal Prime? PLEASE, answer following my assumptions, do not put forward other theories regarding time travel! And if u don't know the answer, then state: "i DUNNO the answer! But if u accept this theory of mine about time travel.. blah blah blah.." so that i'll know which letters to read first. Thanx DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:38:48 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos > > Death: We come from the White Light. And to the White Light we shall > > return. But only if our Soul is unstained by Sin. When we die our souls > > are plunged into Limbo. Asterius will lead the unstained soul to his > > realm, the Crystal Halls of the Seven Moons. Stained Souls must remain > > in Limbo till Time purifies them. But this time of purification is > > painfull and your soul is unprotected from the Demons.>> > > > > Great stuff! Keep the Demons... I don;t know about the "Seven Moons" > > though... maybe Five, to match the number of Immortals in the Karameikan > > Church? > > Seven is just your basic magical number. At first I thought the Karameikan > heaven being lit by only one moon. But really brightly ofcourse. Well, there are definitely more than five Immortals in the Church of Karameikos; the five are only the "most wise" according to this write-up. Those are the five with the greatest following, but there are a number more immortals venerated in the Church. I'm not quite sure about the "Seven moons" either, though. Since the Karameikans can only see one moon, it seems to make sense if there is only one moon in their mythology. > The Lawful Hummonculi are called Fylgar. They appear as winged > babies/black cats/hawks. I dont think it makes sense that they are actual > immortals, but rather servants of those. Fylgar! That's it. And I completely agree that they should be servants of immortals, rather than immortals themselves. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 97 16:26:00 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Varellyan Timeline - Part II As promised, here's Part II of the Varellyan Timeline, from BC 1000 to AC 0. Just a note, however. If you don't agree with what I've written, don't use it - this is only what I'm doing for my campaign, just thought I'd share it. And now we start at BC 900... Varellyan Timeline (BC 1000 - AC 0) BC 1000: Please refer to previous post - I don't feel like typing it out again ;-) BC 900: Some Varellyans, dissatisfied with what they see as an increase in corruption, migrate towards the southwest, going through the Brasol Range and reaching the southwestern coast of Davania. They reach their new home on the coast by BC 800, and build a new nation there (modified HW migration map). BC 750: Some Hinterlanders migrate to the region, having been driven from their homes by the rising power of the Milenian Empire. They are absorbed by the Varellyans. BC 500: By this time troubles with humanoid marauders has become prevalent throughout western Varellya. BC 350: Waves of Milenians enter Varellya, warning the locals of the growing decadence of their northern neighbour. These Milenians do not subscribe to the views held by the ruling (corrupt) elite in the Empire, and have fled to Varellya, their closest neighbour, for political reasons. They are welcomed to their new home, and their knowledge and culture is blended with that of the Varellyans over the next few generations. By this time contact with the Milenian Empire has become sporadic at best, due to the increasing Milenian troubles with their subjectc peoples. BC 297: King Ranoth proclaims a policy of isolationism. The kingdom's external borders are closed to all outsiders. This is in response to growing concerns among the populace that the growing chaos in Davania might affect Varellya, too. BC 100: In a final show of force, the decadent Milenian Empire attempts to conquer its neighbours, including Varellya. The war lasts six years, and results in a victory for Queen Astarra of Varellya (modified HW). BC 94: Priests of Thanatos, eager to spread chaos to their own realm, have Queen Astarra assassinated. The Anthor Dynasty, led by Prince Volann, assumes the throne. BC 50: The Milenian empire collapses (HW). AC 0: The first emperor of Thyatis is proclaimed. Well, that's Part II for you. Coming next is Part III, covering the years AC 126 - AC 1010. This should bring us all up to speed on what's happening on the Vulture Peninsula, and Davania in general (at least a part of it). Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:14:13 +0300 From: Nickolas Pavlis Subject: [Mystara] What to do. I am a new DM.I would like some opinions for the following things: We've got here a:Magic user with an AC of 1 Elf with an AC of -2 Fighter with an AC of -3 another Fighter with an AC of -3 one more Fighter with an AC of -4 So I would like to know:Is it too much?If so what should I do? I'd like to add that all the above characters are at Level 3 and they also have many magical items such as swords not less with a +3 bonus. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:04:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks Form: Reply Text: (19 lines follow) So, lesse if this clears Bruce and his nose for cpyright peculiarities: If I give Mystaros permission to use my posts, which, by the TOS should be part-owned by me, would he have the power to (legally) include them on his webpage? What about my netMAGs? Just because I uploaded them to TSR/AOL does that mean I lose the ability to determine where else they appear? I understand that they are not copyrighted (or copyright-able) by me or anyone else, but does that prevent them from being uploaded elsewhere, too? just some random off-topic ramblings LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Original text: (34 lines follow) From CRLPTONI @ SMTP {CRlPTONITE@aol.com}, on 5/22/97 15:22: >>>Why does it seem that most cool Mystara stuff is on AOL? :) >>Is it? If so, I'm sure some of us non-AOL people would appreciate >>kindly AOL subscribers redistributing that stuff to the list... >>Any volunteers? ;-) >> >>Thorf. > I think there is a copyright problem or something with that... > Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl i just read over the terms of service i was going to post the section but everyone would be asleep by the end of it plus youd probably have to read it a few times to figure out what the hell theyre trying to say let me summarize: aol has the rights to everything on aol including posts to folders once you post it they can do whatever they want with it aol users can do what they want too but only for their own personal use the writer of the post is the only other one with full rights mystaros mentioned putting his posts on a web page he can do that with no problem but if he put other peoples posts there would be anyways thats my interpetation you could always check out tsr online yourself with one of aols free packages i think theyve sent me a thousand of them - ---Crip Use Proportional Font: true Previous From: CRLPTONI @ SMTP {CRlPTONITE@aol.com} Previous To: MYSTARA- @ SMTP {mystara-l@lists.io.com} Original to: MYSTARA- @ SMTP {mystara-l@lists.io.com} ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 97 17:01:52 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Varellyan Timeline - Part III Here it is folks! Part III! Varellyan Timeline (AC 126 - AC 1010) AC 126: Frustrated over decades of misrule under the Anthor Dynasty, the province of Androkia declares independence. A bloody civil war ensues. AC 159: Androkia is granted independence. The population of Oceanian descent has been growing rapidly on Cestia over the past thousand years, to the extent that they comprise almost half of the population. Certain ethnic Varellyans regard this as a threat to their own existence. AC 201: The Kingdom of Androkia is wracked by civil war, between those of Varellyan and Oceanian descent. In Varellya proper, some western cities fall to humanoid hordes. AC 219: After years of shifting battle lines, Androkia collapses into a new dark age. Varellya, too busy fighting off the humanoid menace, does not send aid. AC 279: Priallus, famed port city of the Adakkian Sound, falls to a combined force of humanoid and Milenian-descended raiders. No efforts are made to rebuild the city, and Varellya will never expand to this region again. AC 300: Varellya has not been reduced to the peninsula itself, plus a mainland region the size of Greater Alphatia (the island itself). It has been reduced to one-third of its greatest size. AC 450: On the Isle of Cestia, the kingdoms of Androkia, Morovoay, Manakara, and Ambiroa have been created. Their borders are relatively stable, and an uneasy truce exists between them. Androkia is the only kingdom where ethnic Varellyans are still found, and though it is the most populous of the four kingdoms, almost all of the knowledge of their ancestors has been forgotten. The only lore they possess is a tale of their neighbours making war upon them long ago. While this view of history is false, they are told to embrace it by their priests (who know the truth). Thus a tradition of xenophobia develops among the Androkians (Dragon #155 modified). AC 515: Ossir is crowned king of Varellya at the age of ten. At this time there is a period of stability. The humanoids have been pushed back, some western towns have been reclaimed, and more colonists are setting out to find new lands, and rediscover old colonies. AC 538: The twin princes Abatu and Lothir are born to King Ossir amid a time of plenty. News of successful Varellyan colonies elsewhere on Mystara reach the capital, as well as news of Cestia. AC 565: Crown Prince Abatu kidnaps his aging father and declares his dead, claiming the throne for himself. Lothir, an accomplice in the kidnapping, questions his brother's claim to the throne. A civil war ensues, in which Abatu conjures up a fiend from the Sphere of Entropy to eliminate his brother, but finds himself unable to control it. The fiend ruins Varellya's irrigation system, and curses the land, beginning the process of desertification. The war itself kills eighty percent of the population (modified Dragon #157). AC 580: By this time Varellya has become a desert, dotted with the ruins attesting to the Varellyans' former glory. Those who died in the war begin to come back as nagpas. Only those who escaped the war are not cursed. These people scatter to the winds, some going to Cestia, others migrating west and north. AC 600: Some Varellyan refugees settle in the Milenian city-states of the Meghala Kimata plain. They spread their tale of woe. AC 650: The Varellyans fleeing southwest meet with those who are descendents of the migration of BC 900-800. They share their news, and are welcomed to their new home. This coastal nation on the southwestern coast of Davania begins a meteoric rise to power. AC 965: Haldemar visits the Vulture Peninsula (as Varellya is now called), and learns a fragment of its great history (Dragon #157). AC 1000: The present day. AC 1007: An expedition from the Varellyan-descended nation to the southwest arrives, and searches the surrounding ruins for ancient lore. AC 1010: Contact is made with another former Varellyan colony, this one is on the southernmost tip of the Arm of the Immortals. Formal relations are concluded with this reclusive nation. Well, that wraps up Varellya for a while. I hope you guys enjoy this as much as I have, and I hope you can use some of it. Enjoy!!! Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:02:03 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Achelos Adventure Hi everyone. I got a number of positive replies, so I guess I'll post this adventure to the whole list. This adventure is set in the Cruth Lowlands, as described in my Western Karameikos setting description sent out a few weeks ago. If anyone needs this, please feel free to ask me. One correction from that earlier post: >Personalities: >General Nizar al Harb: (F8, AL: LN) Commander of The Fury of the West and >descendent of Muktar. Suleiman is overwhelmed by his task as commander... Instead of Suleiman, this should say Nizar. Also, the military ranks may, and probably should, be changed. The same thing goes for many of the alignments I gave. This adventure is very flexible; if first or second level characters are used, they will probably be in over their heads unless they are part of a fairly large party (i.e., at least 4 or 5). Extremely high-level characters could play this adventure, but the combat encounters should be eliminated so that this is almost entirely a political adventure. As far as party makeup, class doesn't make too much difference, but race is important. Everything I write assumes that there is at least 1 Traladaran character, at least 1 Thyatian character, and at least 1 "neutral" character. IMC, I don't have a Thyatian PC, so I am considering using Prince Valen of Karameikos, travelling in disguise, as the Thyatian. NPC party members could easily be used if you don't have a character to match each of the three (one of the Alfheim elves moving into the Achelos Woods might be a good idea). These characters should be primarily lawful and/or good. While the characters will have a biased perspective on the events in the adventure, none should be a total bigot. One more thing: this is based very much on by Lloyd Alexander. It will be apparent to anyone who has read the book, so I am saying it now. I would suggest that you try to read it, but it is certainly not necessary to use the adventure. Here is the basic adventure outline, and a descripion of my posts that will follow: The party learns about the story of Achelos and Muktar (Achelos Story), and that there is reason to believe that it is more than just fiction. They head to the village of Allia-Colba deep in the Cruth Lowlands by way of Riverfork Keep, and they have many adventures along the way (Achelos journey part 1). After becoming thoroughly embroiled in Traladaran vs. Thyatian conflict, they locate a lost artifact (Axhelos hourney part 2 & Achelos Artifact) which may help them heal the tension between Traladarans and their overlords (Achelos finale). Details of background info follow (Achelos Info). DMs considering running these may want to go through these in order, to get a feel for the suspense which builds throughout, or they might wish to peruse "Achelos Artifact" or "Achelos Info," both of which spoil a good deal of the suspense, but may make the adventure easier to understand. It may take me a couple days to post everything, so sit tight for a little while if you don't get all the messages. Any questions, comments, or suggestions, please send them! After all, I'm going to be running this adventure in about a month, and I want to know how to do it right:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:09:07 +0300 From: George Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] What to do. Nickolas Pavlis wrote: > > I am a new DM.I would like some opinions for the following things: > We've got here a:Magic user with an AC of 1 > Elf with an AC of -2 > Fighter with an AC of -3 > another Fighter with an AC of -3 > one more Fighter with an AC of -4 > So I would like to know:Is it too much?If so what should I do? > I'd like to add that all the above characters are at Level 3 and they > also have many magical items such as swords not less with a +3 bonus. No it is not much.You just should make the fighter,who is a woman and a great warrior,AC -5.And give her a good weapon too!!!! P.S.No,it is not me. P.S.2 Think about it,or else... P.S.3 Think about the T-Rex,the zombies and the werewolves. - -- Memento mori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:20:05 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] What to do. On Fri, 23 May 1997 Nickolas Pavlis wrote: >I am a new DM.I would like some opinions for the following things: >We've got here a:Magic user with an AC of 1 > Elf with an AC of -2 > Fighter with an AC of -3 > another Fighter with an AC of -3 > one more Fighter with an AC of -4 >So I would like to know:Is it too much?If so what should I do? >I'd like to add that all the above characters are at Level 3 and they >also have many magical items such as swords not less with a +3 bonus. Well, there are at least 2 possible answers, depending on the answers to the following questions: 1) Do monsters have problems hitting the PCs? Are they never threatened at any point unless you do something radical like cheat giving each monster +5 to his die rolls? If the answer is yes, your characters are never threatened, your characters are overpowered armour-wise. If the answer is no, they are quite often threatened with death or grievous injury, especially at the climax of the adventure, your characters are fine within your campaign. Remember, it is very possible to run your campaign in this way, so long as the players aren't unhittable. There are ways round it. Throw magic at them a lot. Get them to come across traps a lot - perhaps traps which give them a penalty for heavy armour. BUT... in my opinion, taking away too much of their armour and magic stuff will only annoy them a great deal. You should find better ways to go. For instance, in one of my campaigns the two characters were btoh ambidextrous with high weapon mastery. I allowed them to be ambidextrous early on because it was just the two of them. BAD IDEA. With weapon mastery, NOTHING could threaten them. Solution? I threatened to give all of the monsters they fought weapon mastery too. They didn't like it, but they gave in because they knew it would be much worse for them. So... give your monsters magic weapons. Give them magic armour. Especially try to give them stuff the PCs can't use or don't need - such as Kobold plate mail +3, a giant's Sword +4, etc.. Then if they like the challenge, it's fine. If they don't, ask them if they'd like to equal out the odds a bit and shed some of their magic items, with the proviso that you will shed some of the monsters' too. The ultimate example of this is my Wrath of the Immortals campaign, in which ALL six characters had ACs of -5 or better. One had -10, I think. AND they all had weapon mastery. To top that off, the fighter in the party has a suit of World Shield armour (Immortal Artifact, so it doesn't stop working after a month) that he gained at the end of the Blood Brethren trilogy. He can't be affected by any spells or magical effects. The drawback? It started to grow onto his skin, and now it is literally part of him. He can never take it off! This makes magical healing practically impossible... ;-) The bottom line: 2) Are you and your players having fun with these characters? If yes, carry on! Nothing is wrong so long as everyone is having a great time! If that means a power campaign, go right ahead! I have players like that too. If no, you clearly must do something about it. See above. I hope this is of some help to you. :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:27:44 +0300 From: Nickolas Pavlis Subject: [Mystara] example We are certaintly having fun.No doubt about it.But listen to this: As they were closing into the conclusion of the last adventure they faced an 10th level mage.And they beat the hell out of him easily. In other cases some other monsters, which should be more or less difficult for them, they destroyed them like a piece of cake. So I'm thinking seriously make things harder because after all it's meaningless if it's too easy for them,right? P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players (a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:23:09 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) At 05:27 AM 5/23/97 +0300, Nickolas Pavlis wrote: >P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players >(a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. This reminded me of two questions I'd been meaning to ask: 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing female characters and females playing male characters? 2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) With regards to #1, I (and most of the other DM's I happen to play with) personally feel that, in general, it is difficult for a female to 'realistically' play a male and vice versa. As a result, we don't usually allow it. And the rare times when we have allowed it, it usually just didn't work out in the end. I'll admit that I've met one player who could pull this trick off phenomenally well -- there was this one guy I knew who could just BE a woman character, and you /totally/ believed that she was a she. But he's the only one I've run across who could do it. Many DM's I've known could pull it off for NPC's, mostly because they were 'transient' -- you didn't spend more than a few minutes with them at any particular point in the game. And even when you did, because the DM is all the NPC's and other general game mechanics, direct interaction with that particular 'personality' is frequently not as consistent as it is with a PC. With respect to #2, this is another case where I, and most of the DM's I play with, tend to say "It's okay to play multiple characters in different campaigns, but not in the same campaign". Just as NPC interaction tends to get 'fractured' due to the fact that the DM usually has to contend with more than one at a time, one player with multiple PC's can't play both parts fully. For one thing, its very difficult for the two different characters to have a conversation, and it also makes it harder for the player to remember what 'secrets' that person a doesn't yet know about person b and vice versa. Again, there are always exceptions to the rules. I once played in a game where one of the Players played to identical twins. It was pretty funny, and since they "had always stuck together since child hood" and "never kept secrets from one another" it worked. So there's my take on the topics. I'd like to hear what you think. Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:07:14 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos On Thu, 22 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Im planning on making something on the Church of thyatis and its various >Temples, but there is very litle information in DotE. I'm not even sure >which Immortals were the original Thyatian ones. >Im thinking of making the Church of thyatis something like Roman >Mythology. It is probably inspired by the Old Traldaran faith. I assume you know about the list of Immortals in Book II of Dawn of the Emperors, then? It gives enough information for at least a good starting point. It even tells you who the chief Immortal is! (Vanya, I think.) On the subject of Thyatian Immortals, in my campaign I have a PC who is a cleric of Tarastia, and I sort of decided that her clerics are very often military and civilian investigators/detectives. It seems to work well. It's also quite fun having a PC who swears revenge and justice for everything done against him... I had the PCs get ripped off by a merchant, and the cleric PC is calmly plotting revenge, waiting for the day they return to Thyatis City. Even better, during the caravan trip they were attacked by ghouls, and one of the dwarf mercenaries had his arm ripped off. When the PCs found that one of the ghoul's eyes was a 1000 gp gem, the PC insisted they give it to the dwarf in repayment for his arm. Needless to say, he got some extra XP for that. :-) Anyway, it's a very good idea and I'm interested to see what you come up with. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:53:18 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] example On Fri, 23 May 1997 Nickolas Pavlis wrote: >We are certaintly having fun.No doubt about it.But listen to this: >As they were closing into the conclusion of the last adventure they >faced an 10th level mage.And they beat the hell out of him easily. >In other cases some other monsters, which should be more or less >difficult for them, they destroyed them like a piece of cake. >So I'm thinking seriously make things harder because after all it's >meaningless if it's too easy for them,right? This sounds exactly like the problems I used to have with my campaigns. The PCs just get too powerful for any monsters to be able to truly challenge them! Unless you throw something ridiculous at them, thereby killing them, they defeat it far too quickly. An example: looking for a really worthy villain to put up against my players, I had them face a group of Frost Giants, then soon after go on a quest for the giants (some of whom they had killed) to slay the tyrannical Red Dragon who they were being enslaved by. They managed okay against the giants, but then they prepared too well for the Dragon. All were hasted, one was even double hasted thanks to a potion of speed. All also had Fire Resistance. They walked in, and the dragon breathed on them. One person failed their saving throw and died instantly - only to be just as instantly *raised from the dead fully*. Then they started to lay into it. Within a few rounds of that (perhaps as few as two) it was down to practically no hit points and I had to get it to cast a dimension door to go heal itself before carrying on the fight. Meanwhile the party also healed themselves. Thankfully the haste disappeared thanks to a unique clerical power (he's a cleric of Jerjerrod, the first ever Beholder Immortal in my campaign. His special ability is that he can "blink" once a week/month [haven't decided yet] and for a split second project an anti-magic ray like a beholder's central eye). Anyway, the dragon returned and breathed again. No one died this time, and sure enough they had it down to almost 0 again within three to seven rounds. Yes, it hurt them badly too, but it wasn't doing nearly as well as them. It cast Fireball on them, and still none of them fell. It cast Rock to Mud, nearly smothering a party member, but he was rescued with a levitate spell - it only slowed them down a round or two. And soon they killed it. Now, to me, it had been a bit of a strange experience since I thought it had all been a mite to easy for them. But this combat, short as it was in game time, took more than an hour, maybe even two. And the players were very happy by the end of it. They had had great fun! Especially trying to devise a way to fish all the treasure out of the mud... ;-) Now, having read bits of the AD&D High Level Campaigning book, I now know that there are ways I could have made this encounter far more interesting and far less predictable. I could have (and SHOULD have) made the dragon's lair large enough to fly in. I could have given it servants and minions. I could have placed magical wards on the entrance to dispel their prepared magic. I could have done all number of things to make things more interesting, even for such an "overpowered" party. You can do it too. Heck, if the layout is complex enough you could threaten your players with a tiny 1hp Kobold!!! Maybe he is sitting inside a force-field (even better, prismatic wall) at the centre of a huge mechanical device which he can control magically. It battles the PCs, all the while with them knowing all they are fighting is a measly Kobold! ;-) We DMs just need to be a bit more creative, I think, to keep up with our power players. >P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players >(a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. I thought as much. :-) I hope you're getting as much out of this as I am. This is a really interesting discussion! I'm working out how to do it as much as you are... Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:54:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) In a message dated 97-05-23 02:32:35 EDT, Strawberry JAMM wrote: << 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing female characters and females playing male characters?>> I don't really care one way or the other... so long as they stay in character... <<2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) >> This I don't like one bit, as most players, unfortunately, have difficulty maintaining one character at a time, let alone two or three. I generally don;t throw the party into situations where they need the extra characters, so I generally don;t allow it under any circumstances, unless the second character is more of a PC controlled NPC rather then a full-fledged character... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:54:10 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Kogolor Gaz Good work Mischa and Thorf. Only some minor things: 1. Age: what is the maximum age for a Kogolor dwarf? I assume it's 400...is it? 2. Name: if they don't call their homeland Kogolor, then how do they call it? Or better: do they feel as a unified nation at all? 3. Kogolor clan: you wrote that it once was a powerful clan buit it has now declined. How can this be possible considering the effect of the Spell of Preservation? 4. Definitely more info on the clans, at least the Major ones. 5. Skiis: you wrote that they are the only population of the HW to use skiis, but IIRC the Icevale Elves use them too. Do IRC? In this case, have they adopted the skiis from the Kogolors? 6. Foreign relations: i think they should be more "interactive" with the surrounding communities, but that's just my point of view. Ok guys, keep us updated... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:55:09 +0300 From: Nickolas Pavlis Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > > At 05:27 AM 5/23/97 +0300, Nickolas Pavlis wrote: > >P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players > >(a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. > > This reminded me of two questions I'd been meaning to ask: > > 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing > female characters and females playing male characters? > > 2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters > in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) > > With regards to #1, I (and most of the other DM's I happen to play with) > personally feel that, in general, it is difficult for a female to > 'realistically' play a male and vice versa. As a result, we don't usually > allow it. And the rare times when we have allowed it, it usually just didn't > work out in the end. > > I'll admit that I've met one player who could pull this trick off > phenomenally well -- there was this one guy I knew who could just BE a > woman character, and you /totally/ believed that she was a she. But he's > the only one I've run across who could do it. Many DM's I've known could > pull it off for NPC's, mostly because they were 'transient' -- you didn't > spend more than a few minutes with them at any particular point in the > game. And even when you did, because the DM is all the NPC's and other > general game mechanics, direct interaction with that particular > 'personality' is frequently not as consistent as it is with a PC. > > With respect to #2, this is another case where I, and most of the DM's > I play with, tend to say "It's okay to play multiple characters in different > campaigns, but not in the same campaign". Just as NPC interaction tends > to get 'fractured' due to the fact that the DM usually has to contend with > more than one at a time, one player with multiple PC's can't play both > parts fully. For one thing, its very difficult for the two different > characters to have a conversation, and it also makes it harder for the > player to remember what 'secrets' that person a doesn't yet know about > person b and vice versa. > > Again, there are always exceptions to the rules. I once played in a > game where one of the Players played to identical twins. It was pretty > funny, and since they "had always stuck together since child hood" and > "never kept secrets from one another" it worked. > > So there's my take on the topics. I'd like to hear what you think. > > Jenni A. M. Merrifield > -=> strawberryJAMM <=- > > -- > Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs > strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ > <------------------------------------------------------------------> > God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. > Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" > And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" Pardon me but you took the things I wrote by the wrong way.I only wrote these words just for fun and I DID NOT have any intention to offend anyone(especially a strawberry).I only wrote it because if you noticed George sent a message in which he was saying some things just to kid with me so I decided to return it to him(he should have heard about backfire etc.) So I sincerely apologise but if you ask me you should not take things that seriously! Nostradamus. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #85 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #86 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, May 23 1997 Volume 02 : Number 086 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:18:24 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) At 22.23 22/05/97 -0700, Jenni wrote: >1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing >female characters and females playing male characters? Actually, two of my players played female elfins and we had no problem whatsoever. The fact is that, whereas the first one played his character without giving much attention to her sex (u couldn't tell he had a female elf unless you looked at the sheets), the second one is working perfectly (he's a wooddrake who has a female elf form and a male halfling one, and he's trying to seduce the male elf of the party away from his fianceé). It just depends on the player you get, but the fact is that it's very difficult for men to accept playing female roles and to flesh them out in the right way. As for myself as i DM, i usually use female NPCs (one of the PCs -the wizard- is a real casanova and tries to seduce one in every major city... really funny though, cause he has 9 points in Charisma and 9 in Comeliness, so it's a hard time for him, and he usually ends up in pleasure houses with those kind of girls...) but try to make them different from one another, even though a bit stereotyped. It's usually funny: i even had one of the PCs fall madly in love with a rich thyatian, and then kill her the night after she declared him her love (yes, she was really an independent type). He went mad and tried to discover the culprits, and then imagine his reactions when he found out that she was a werewolf!!! That was one of the best adventures ever played, inspired by a tale by J.R.R. Martin, "The Skin Trade" >2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters >in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) I don't usually allow 2 characters being played by the same person for we are already too much (8 people). But when a group is really low numbered and u don't want to put in too many NPCs, then it's all right. For example, i started playing D&D using a wizard and a cleric: it's not recommended for beginners, but if the player has no problems using and roleplaying them (a rare case, though), then it's real fun, especially if he puts the characters one against the other.. DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:59:35 +0300 From: George Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] example Nickolas Pavlis wrote: > > We are certaintly having fun.No doubt about it.But listen to this: > As they were closing into the conclusion of the last adventure they > faced an 10th level mage.And they beat the hell out of him easily. > In other cases some other monsters, which should be more or less > difficult for them, they destroyed them like a piece of cake. > So I'm thinking seriously make things harder because after all it's > meaningless if it's too easy for them,right? > > P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players > (a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. We didn't kill the mage so easy.It was a little bit difficult.So,you don't have to make things harder for them. P.S.For your information,I happen to be a DM in Mystara from 1985 till now.Nickolas Pavlis is DMing three months ago.And as you can see from his e-mail he doesn't like my character because I noticed his mistakes in his campaign(we're talking about BIG MISTAKES).He also has a mage in my campaign who is 8th level and AC0.NOW WHAT I SHOULD DO? - -- Memento mori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:04:39 +0300 From: George Milonas Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > > At 05:27 AM 5/23/97 +0300, Nickolas Pavlis wrote: > >P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players > >(a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. > > This reminded me of two questions I'd been meaning to ask: > > 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing > female characters and females playing male characters? I think it is OK if the players are OK. > 2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters > in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) It is just awful.A friend of mine had allowed this.Most players played their characters as one.I had a mage and a fighter who were a complete different aligment(chaotic and lawful)and they hated each other.We tried to explain them that a mage and a fighter played by the same player,do not make a fighter/mage or an elf as they thought but they didn't understand. - -- Memento mori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:44:03 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara]example) > This reminded me of two questions I'd been meaning to ask: > >1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing >female characters and females playing male characters? The style of the campaigns I have played or DMed is such that gender-specific role-playing is limited. i.e. There are few instances where the gender of the character makes a difference - all characters could be neuters or hermaphrodites and the adventure would be the same. So from time to time a player will have a character of the other gender. Consider: if Frodo were a female would LotR necessarily have been a different story? cf. Dragonlance Chronicles (the novels, not the adventure modules) where the Tanis/Laurana/Kitiara, Goldmoon/Riverwind, Caramon/Tika, Gilthanas/Silvara, and Sturm/Alhana threads are significant to the story (also Raistlin/Crysania in Legends). > >2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters >in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) Generally no. However just before my group folded (for logistical reasons) we were in the second module of the original Dragonlance series. Since the party splits and one group plays one set of modules and the other plays another (and because the group of players was small), I had them playing two characters each, one from each of the groups in the future split party. The plan was to get the players comfortable with characters in each group so that the role-playing would continue to flow well after the split. (Folks unfamiliar with Dragonlance - don't ask :) ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:08:36 +0300 From: Nostradamus Subject: Re: [Mystara] example George Milonas wrote: > > Nickolas Pavlis wrote: > > > > We are certaintly having fun.No doubt about it.But listen to this: > > As they were closing into the conclusion of the last adventure they > > faced an 10th level mage.And they beat the hell out of him easily. > > In other cases some other monsters, which should be more or less > > difficult for them, they destroyed them like a piece of cake. > > So I'm thinking seriously make things harder because after all it's > > meaningless if it's too easy for them,right? > > > > P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players > > (a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. > We didn't kill the mage so easy.It was a little bit difficult.So,you > don't have to make things harder for them. > P.S.For your information,I happen to be a DM in Mystara from 1985 till > now.Nickolas Pavlis is DMing three months ago.And as you can see from > his e-mail he doesn't like my character because I noticed his mistakes > in his campaign(we're talking about BIG MISTAKES).He also has a mage in > my campaign who is 8th level and AC0.NOW WHAT I SHOULD DO? > -- > Memento mori George Milonas should not try to PATRONIZE me or anyone else. Instead of accusing me he should talk about HIS mistakes. And if I DO mistakes it's normal since I'm a new DM.But what HE should do is to guide me through my first steps by MENTIONING my mistakes (something he's NEVER DONE untill now),because he really enjoys his fighter skills,weapons,armory etc. But all he's got to do is a little patience and he'll see....... what do you think?Should a rookie DM take all the necessary first and "dangerous" steps by himself or should someone show him the basics(I leave the rulebooks aside)? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:42:29 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks > If I give Mystaros permission to use my posts, which, by the TOS should be > part-owned by me, would he have the power to (legally) include them on his > webpage? What about my netMAGs? you retain the rights to your own material that includes the right to distribute if you give him permission id say he could use it therefore anything you wrote could be posted on this list too you might want to check out the terms of service at keyword: TOS > Just because I uploaded them to TSR/AOL does that > mean I lose the ability to determine where else they appear? I understand > that they are not copyrighted (or copyright-able) by me or anyone else, but > does that prevent them from being uploaded elsewhere, too? once you upload them aol can do almost anything they want with it so you do lose that ability heres an excerpt of the TOS (part I section 4 paragraph B) "By submitting Content to any "public area" of AOL (e.g., message boards, forums, the Member Directory), you grant AOL, Inc. and its affiliates the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right (including any moral rights) and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, communicate to the public, perform and display the Content (in whole or in part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media or technology now known or later developed, for the full term of any rights that may exist in such Content." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:09:01 +0800 (WST) From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] > > This reminded me of two questions I'd been meaning to ask: > > 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing > female characters and females playing male characters? > > 2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters > in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) > > With regards to #1, I (and most of the other DM's I happen to play with) > personally feel that, in general, it is difficult for a female to > 'realistically' play a male and vice versa. As a result, we don't usually > allow it. And the rare times when we have allowed it, it usually just didn't > work out in the end. > In my current "main" campaign, both of the long running NPC's are female. Two of my current PC's are female. I checked with my girlfriend on my ability to play female characters, and she thought that my female characters seemed as realistic as my male ones. She is probably biased tho :) > I'll admit that I've met one player who could pull this trick off > phenomenally well -- there was this one guy I knew who could just BE a > woman character, and you /totally/ believed that she was a she. But he's > the only one I've run across who could do it. Many DM's I've known could > pull it off for NPC's, mostly because they were 'transient' -- you didn't > spend more than a few minutes with them at any particular point in the > game. And even when you did, because the DM is all the NPC's and other > general game mechanics, direct interaction with that particular > 'personality' is frequently not as consistent as it is with a PC. > In that campaign, both NPC's have travelled with the party for a considerable time. I think that playing a different gender is no harder than playing a different race, and is generally easier because I have females around me but I don't see many elves. Part of the problem is that it's harder to define gender-specific thought patterns than racial ones, which are arbitary anyway. For instance, I can say that all 'wazzas' love eating chocolate and like children, but if I said that about females in general it's hardly true. An example of a series of events from my campaign: Safranna the vampire centaur was staying in Seraine for a while. She is about 17 in human years, and it is about a year since she saw another centaur. She met a handsome and polite pegataur paladin, and they had a secret romance. Eventually she told him of her (vampiric) condition. He responded badly, saying he was going to kill her because she was 'evil'. She fled the city, with the paladin hunting for her. He eventually realised that she had not acted in an evil manner, and had not jumped at his neck at any stage. Feeling considerable remorse, he went looking for her to apologize and tell her he still loved her. Since she was gone, he has started searching her homeland for her. Only one player has any idea of what happened (he saw them first meet), and only the other NPC knows exactly what happened (she asked her for moral advice). The other characters know that Safranna has refused to return to the city at any cost. She is afraid to meet him, for if he tries to hurt her she might have to respond with violence and kill him, her first love. This is something that happens entirely in the background, with the other characters only seeing the symptoms. Anybody here think that any of these actions are contary to what they would consider 'female'? (Apologies for the length). > With respect to #2, this is another case where I, and most of the DM's > I play with, tend to say "It's okay to play multiple characters in different > campaigns, but not in the same campaign". Just as NPC interaction tends > to get 'fractured' due to the fact that the DM usually has to contend with > more than one at a time, one player with multiple PC's can't play both > parts fully. For one thing, its very difficult for the two different > characters to have a conversation, and it also makes it harder for the > player to remember what 'secrets' that person a doesn't yet know about > person b and vice versa. > I find it a real pain as a DM having conversations between NPC's. It just seems silly. Having conversations between multiple PC's is the same. Playing multiple NPC's is a definite skill, and one that has taken me a long time to learn. Things like only having two or three NPC's at most, having a sheet of paper with everybodies (character) names on it to remind me, making sure to mention the actions of NPC's often, even when they aren't talking etc. I play in a campign where I play 3 characters. A bard (the first character), his wife, and her familiar. The DM (also my gf) is happy with this state of affairs, feeling that I can play all three appropriately. A few problems still crop up: Making sure each character gets some "screen time"; not sharing information between the characters; not sharing items between the two; making sure that each remains destinct. Basically the same as playing NPC's. The best way I found to get around these was to play them like I play NPC's. > Again, there are always exceptions to the rules. I once played in a > game where one of the Players played to identical twins. It was pretty > funny, and since they "had always stuck together since child hood" and > "never kept secrets from one another" it worked. > Playing characters who are married is a lot easier. I can describe them lookign at each other and nodding or giving other body languages signals so I don't have to go into great detailed discussions with myself. I also have great fun making up all these practical jokes that the wife's familiar can play on my own characters, without concern about causing intraparty conflicts. > So there's my take on the topics. I'd like to hear what you think. > > Jenni A. M. Merrifield > -=> strawberryJAMM <=- > Glenn (somewhat appropriate sig at the moment I suppose...) - -- "Women. Can't live 'em..." [The other battle cry of Lynard the elemaster] knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au Home page: http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ finger -l for pgp public key ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:47:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [Mystara] Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number Jenni A. M. Merrifield pontificated: > > 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing > female characters and females playing male characters? Never DMed one like that, but personally, I have a hard time role playing females, so I generally prefer the player and character have same gender. > 2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters > in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) > As my playing groups are generally very small, I allowed that and have played that way. But, the two characters have to be very close and loyal to each other. Never thought of using twins, but we have close siblings, loyal sidekick/bodyguard, childhood friends, etc. It has its disadvantages, like many others have pointed out, but for a small group, this is a decent way of adding more varity of characters. Also, if one character dies, the player can keep on playing with out much interuption. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 97 11:10:32 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] a Varellyan Timeline (BC 4000 - BC 1000) (fwd) Geoff Gander writes: > From owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Thu May 22 15:35:42 1997 > From: Geoff Gander > Message-Id: <199705221845.OAA03756@wabakimi.carleton.ca> > Subject: [Mystara] a Varellyan Timeline (BC 4000 - BC 1000) > To: mystara-l@io.com > Date: Thu, 22 May 97 14:45:32 EDT > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] > Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com > > > Hey guys!, > > As some of you might know, I said I'd do a timeline for Varellya, > in response to recent questions as to who they were - here's the first > installment: > > Timeline of Varellya > > BC 4000: The region that is to become the Vulture Peninsula is a > semi-tropical land, with rich soils and rolling meadows > populated by primitive Neathar tribes. > BC 3000: Great Rain of Fire. Blackmoor is obliterated and is now the > north pole. The indigenous Neathar tribes, dismayed at the > ecological changes to their home, migrate elsewhere. The peninsula > has become drier due to its new location, and the changes in the > wind directions. It is now a semi-arid land (various sources). > BC 2400: By this time, scattered elvish clans have passed through the > region over the course of their migrations. These elves are not part > of Ilsundal's group, but are part of a hitherto unknown > expedition, of which the Hatwa elves may be a part. One clan, > desperate to lighten its load, leaves behind various tools, > tomes, and other simple technological items. > BC 2000: Other Neathar tribes (at Bronze Age technological levels) arrive in > the region, and settle here. They discover the remaining elvish > items, and, after many years of study, manage to decipher the > various notes left behind. This allows them to advance much more > quickly than would otherwise be possible, and also allows them to > better adapt to their surroundings (partly from HW migration map). > They also adopt the elvish script as their own. > BC 1850: The first king of the newly-formed nation of Varellya (Land of > Our Destiny), named Tharl, is crowned. King Tharl embarks upon > a plan to improve the lot of the average Varellyan, and to > improve already-existing irrigation systems. The capital city > is named in his honour. By this time, the technological level > of the Varellyans has progressed to the Iron Age. > BC 1700: Varellya is once again a rich land. A complicated web of > sophisticated irrigation ditches covers the entire peninsula. > Engineering feats, such as aqueducts, are becoming commonplace, > thanks to the lore of elvish engineering, and human ingenuity. > With an expanding population and growing cities, colonists set > out across the sea and inland to expand Varellyan holdings. > BC 1500: The Isle of Cestia is discovered by Androk Thran, an adventurer > of some repute among the Varellyans. Word of this discovery is > sent to the capital city, Tharl. Within twenty years, colonists > arrive on the southwestern shores of the island, and the > foundations of the town of Androkia are laid. The province that > is to occupy the entire island will also have this name. The > region that was first settled by the Varellyans will become the > xenophobic kingdom of Androkia, of which Haldemar will learn > (some elements of Dragon #157, HW migration map). Contact is > also established with the Oceanians, trade develops. > BC 1400: The Varellyan civilization has expanded inland to the beginning > of the Adakkian Sound, by the Brasol Range. Contact is made > with the halflings living there. Halfling lands are > appropriated by King Prial to build a great port city in his > honour at this location. The is the beginning of a 100 year > long feud which will result in the halfling migration to Brun. > BC 1374: King Prial II, eager to continue his father's tradition of > excessiveness, plans the construction of a grand series of > temples and paved roads around the port city of Priallus. This > would take away even more halfling land. Local halfling clan > leaders lodge protests with the local governor, but to no avail. > BC 1326: King Naxith decides to rid his nation of the "halfling problem" > once and for all. For the past twenty years the conflict has > intensified to the extent of open war throughout western > Varellya. Several army divisions are called in to "restore order". > BC 1300: The Halflings, though excellent fighters, are woefully > outnumbered by the enemies. They are forced to flee en masse > by a great fleet of sailing ships to the north (modified HW). > By this time the Oceanians are being threatened by the Night > Dragons. > BC 1200: Some Oceanians migrate to Cestia. They are accepted by the > locals (HW migration map). > BC 1000: King Milen leads his Traldar followers across the Sea of Dread > to Davania. Landing east of the modern Jungle Coast, they press > upriver, until they reach the Meghala Kimata plain, where they > settle and found the kingdom of Milenia. On the Jungle Coast > itself, the Antalian-descended slaves of the Nithians overthrow > their masters. These people would become the Thyatians, > Kerendans, Hattians, and Hinterlanders (HW). > > Whew! That's the first installment. I'll bring Part II, covering > the Varellyan history between the years BC 1000 - AC 0, along shortly. > Enjoy!!!!! > > Geoff > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 97 11:12:09 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Varellyan Timeline - Part II (fwd) Geoff Gander writes: > From owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Thu May 22 17:20:58 1997 > From: Geoff Gander > Message-Id: <199705222026.QAA28846@wabakimi.carleton.ca> > Subject: [Mystara] Varellyan Timeline - Part II > To: mystara-l@io.com > Date: Thu, 22 May 97 16:26:00 EDT > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] > Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com > > > As promised, here's Part II of the Varellyan Timeline, from BC > 1000 to AC 0. Just a note, however. If you don't agree with what I've > written, don't use it - this is only what I'm doing for my campaign, just > thought I'd share it. And now we start at BC 900... > > Varellyan Timeline (BC 1000 - AC 0) > > BC 1000: Please refer to previous post - I don't feel like typing it out > again ;-) > BC 900: Some Varellyans, dissatisfied with what they see as an increase > in corruption, migrate towards the southwest, going through the > Brasol Range and reaching the southwestern coast of Davania. > They reach their new home on the coast by BC 800, and build a > new nation there (modified HW migration map). > BC 750: Some Hinterlanders migrate to the region, having been driven > from their homes by the rising power of the Milenian Empire. > They are absorbed by the Varellyans. > BC 500: By this time troubles with humanoid marauders has become > prevalent throughout western Varellya. > BC 350: Waves of Milenians enter Varellya, warning the locals of the growing > decadence of their northern neighbour. These Milenians do not > subscribe to the views held by the ruling (corrupt) elite in the > Empire, and have fled to Varellya, their closest neighbour, for > political reasons. They are welcomed to their new home, and > their knowledge and culture is blended with that of the > Varellyans over the next few generations. By this time contact > with the Milenian Empire has become sporadic at best, due to the > increasing Milenian troubles with their subjectc peoples. > BC 297: King Ranoth proclaims a policy of isolationism. The kingdom's > external borders are closed to all outsiders. This is in > response to growing concerns among the populace that the growing > chaos in Davania might affect Varellya, too. > BC 100: In a final show of force, the decadent Milenian Empire attempts > to conquer its neighbours, including Varellya. The war lasts > six years, and results in a victory for Queen Astarra of > Varellya (modified HW). > BC 94: Priests of Thanatos, eager to spread chaos to their own realm, > have Queen Astarra assassinated. The Anthor Dynasty, led by > Prince Volann, assumes the throne. > BC 50: The Milenian empire collapses (HW). > AC 0: The first emperor of Thyatis is proclaimed. > > Well, that's Part II for you. Coming next is Part III, covering > the years AC 126 - AC 1010. This should bring us all up to speed on > what's happening on the Vulture Peninsula, and Davania in general (at > least a part of it). > > > Geoff > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 97 11:12:58 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Varellyan Timeline - Part III (fwd) Geoff Gander writes: > From owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com Thu May 22 17:49:30 1997 > From: Geoff Gander > Message-Id: <199705222101.RAA09365@wabakimi.carleton.ca> > Subject: [Mystara] Varellyan Timeline - Part III > To: mystara-l@io.com > Date: Thu, 22 May 97 17:01:52 EDT > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] > Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com > > > Here it is folks! Part III! > > Varellyan Timeline (AC 126 - AC 1010) > > AC 126: Frustrated over decades of misrule under the Anthor Dynasty, the > province of Androkia declares independence. A bloody civil war > ensues. > AC 159: Androkia is granted independence. The population of Oceanian > descent has been growing rapidly on Cestia over the past > thousand years, to the extent that they comprise almost half of > the population. Certain ethnic Varellyans regard this as a > threat to their own existence. > AC 201: The Kingdom of Androkia is wracked by civil war, between those > of Varellyan and Oceanian descent. In Varellya proper, some > western cities fall to humanoid hordes. > AC 219: After years of shifting battle lines, Androkia collapses > into a new dark age. Varellya, too busy fighting off the humanoid > menace, does not send aid. > AC 279: Priallus, famed port city of the Adakkian Sound, falls to a > combined force of humanoid and Milenian-descended raiders. No > efforts are made to rebuild the city, and Varellya will never > expand to this region again. > AC 300: Varellya has not been reduced to the peninsula itself, plus a > mainland region the size of Greater Alphatia (the island > itself). It has been reduced to one-third of its greatest size. > AC 450: On the Isle of Cestia, the kingdoms of Androkia, Morovoay, > Manakara, and Ambiroa have been created. Their borders are relatively > stable, and an uneasy truce exists between them. Androkia is > the only kingdom where ethnic Varellyans are still found, and > though it is the most populous of the four kingdoms, almost all > of the knowledge of their ancestors has been forgotten. The > only lore they possess is a tale of their neighbours making war > upon them long ago. While this view of history is false, they > are told to embrace it by their priests (who know the truth). > Thus a tradition of xenophobia develops among the Androkians > (Dragon #155 modified). > AC 515: Ossir is crowned king of Varellya at the age of ten. At this > time there is a period of stability. The humanoids have been pushed > back, some western towns have been reclaimed, and more colonists are > setting out to find new lands, and rediscover old colonies. > AC 538: The twin princes Abatu and Lothir are born to King Ossir amid a > time of plenty. News of successful Varellyan colonies elsewhere > on Mystara reach the capital, as well as news of Cestia. > AC 565: Crown Prince Abatu kidnaps his aging father and declares his > dead, claiming the throne for himself. Lothir, an accomplice in > the kidnapping, questions his brother's claim to the throne. A > civil war ensues, in which Abatu conjures up a fiend from the > Sphere of Entropy to eliminate his brother, but finds himself > unable to control it. The fiend ruins Varellya's irrigation > system, and curses the land, beginning the process of > desertification. The war itself kills eighty percent of the > population (modified Dragon #157). > AC 580: By this time Varellya has become a desert, dotted with the ruins > attesting to the Varellyans' former glory. Those who died in the > war begin to come back as nagpas. Only those who escaped the war > are not cursed. These people scatter to the winds, some going > to Cestia, others migrating west and north. > AC 600: Some Varellyan refugees settle in the Milenian city-states of > the Meghala Kimata plain. They spread their tale of woe. > AC 650: The Varellyans fleeing southwest meet with those who are > descendents of the migration of BC 900-800. They share their > news, and are welcomed to their new home. This coastal nation > on the southwestern coast of Davania begins a meteoric rise to > power. > AC 965: Haldemar visits the Vulture Peninsula (as Varellya is now > called), and learns a fragment of its great history (Dragon #157). > AC 1000: The present day. > AC 1007: An expedition from the Varellyan-descended nation to the > southwest arrives, and searches the surrounding ruins for > ancient lore. > AC 1010: Contact is made with another former Varellyan colony, this one > is on the southernmost tip of the Arm of the Immortals. Formal > relations are concluded with this reclusive nation. > > Well, that wraps up Varellya for a while. I hope you guys enjoy > this as much as I have, and I hope you can use some of it. Enjoy!!! > > Geoff > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Geoff Gander > Political Science IV > Carleton University > General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession > Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:43:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] CM7: The Tree of Life On Thu, 22 May 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 21.57 20/05/97 -0400, you wrote: > > ><< Does the adventure have a date indicating when it happens? I assume the > > answer is no, in which case should it happen in a future Almanac? >> > > > >Given that the adventure begins in Alfheim, it should definitely predate the > >fall of Alfheim to the Shadow Elves. In fact, I would prefer to play it that > >way > >as it gives a third escape route to the Alfheim Elves. once it has been > >played out. > > Or maybe it can be played in the future if Alfheim Elves will come back to > Alfheim... I like that option better. That would help ensure a new golden age of the elves when they can get rid of those shadowy ones. Also if you use this option in the future Almanacs that would be a great way of introducing the Sylvan Realm and its neighbours. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:08:22 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] example Hey George and Nikolaus, take your private battle to private email please. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:10:05 +0300 From: George Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] example Nostradamus wrote: > George Milonas should not try to PATRONIZE me or anyone else. > Instead of accusing me he should talk about HIS mistakes. > And if I DO mistakes it's normal since I'm a new DM.But what HE should > do is to guide me through my first steps by MENTIONING my mistakes > (something he's NEVER DONE untill now),because he really enjoys his > fighter skills,weapons,armory etc. > But all he's got to do is a little patience and he'll see....... > > what do you think?Should a rookie DM take all the necessary first and > "dangerous" steps by himself or should someone show him the basics(I > leave the rulebooks aside)? I do not patronize anyone and I showed your mistakes.Remember that before I came in your campaign,a fighter with a plate mail and a dexterity of +1 had AC 4.I was the only that I mentioned your mistakes. IMHO I do not make mistakes IMC. - -- Memento mori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:22:38 +0300 From: George Milonas Subject: [Mystara] Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number As min ksehnai o mikros oti tha prepei ego na pliroso gia to internet tou. - -- Memento mori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:15:52 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) Nostradamus: >Pardon me but you took the things I wrote by the wrong way.I only wrote >these words just for fun and I DID NOT have any intention to offend >anyone(especially a strawberry). >[....] Don't worry, I wasn't offended by your comments at all. In fact, I didn't even really take them all that seriously, it was just the fact that your Male player was playing a Female character that got me wondering about how the other DM's on the list felt about this sort of thing in general. (BTW: I had seen both posts, and I assumed you two were just goofing around, which was the case) Absolutely nothing personal aimed at either of you. Your innocent comments just got me thinking, that's all. :-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:23:17 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number At 08:22 PM 5/23/97 +0300, you wrote: >As min ksehnai o mikros oti tha prepei ego na pliroso gia to internet >tou. Could somebody translate this for me? I'd like to know what it says since it falls under the thread I started... Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:42:49 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Working in a New DM (was Re: [Mystara] example) At 04:08 PM 5/23/97 +0300, Nostradamus wrote: >what do you think?Should a rookie DM take all the necessary first and >"dangerous" steps by himself or should someone show him the basics(I >leave the rulebooks aside)? You know, there was a time once when we were all 'rookie DMs'. I remember once, leaving a newly formed group that I was attempting to DM because I was constantly criticized by one of the players no matter what I did. Too bad really. I probably would have enjoyed learning how to be a good DM a lot earlier if it hadn't been for that one player.... I'm still a fairly inexperienced DM (though a long time player). One of the things I like about my current crop of D&D friends is that even those who know the rules inside-out, upside-down and backwards are patient and let me make 'mistakes'. Nobody's perfect, and everyone needs time to learn how they want to play their campaign. If I make a decsion 'on the fly' becuase I need to in order to keep the game flow moving (and so I don't have to bore my players by spending 15 minutes reading something up in the Rules Cycolpedia), and realize later (when I've had a chance to look at the book) that I made an incorrect decision, I just remember to make the right one later. And if my players were to say: "Hey, the /last/ time we tried this it worked /this/ way", I'll just say, "really? Well, for some reason, unknown to you, it isn't working that way this time." and now the Characters have to deal with a new situation. (Of course, the group I'm with now probably wouldn't even ask about that and would just accept that the situation was different in some way from the previous one ;-) You know, I've also noticed that what is a 'mistake' to one person, is just a different decision to another person. For example, in /my/ campaign I tell my players to think of one silver piece as having the approximate purchase power of $2 today (that's Canadian, BTW). And so a copper is about 20 cents. On the other hand, one of my players, when /he/ is the DM, he says a silver piece has the purchase power of about $5 and so a copper is about 50 cents. To each his (or her) own -- I just have to remember what his system is when I'm a player in his game and he has to remember mine when he's a player in mine. Anyway, I think that Rookie DM's should be allowed to learn by making mistakes and the Experienced Players under Rookie DM's should provide /suggestions/ and /advice/ (if asked for) and /constructive criticism/ AFTER THE FACT (i.e., not during play, because it spoils the flow and can ruin the fun for all). Just my $0.02 (or 1/10 of a copper) worth ;-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #86 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #87 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, May 24 1997 Volume 02 : Number 087 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:08:08 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Let's Keep Personal Spats Off The List I think the subject line says it all, eh? Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:21:02 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number > 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing > female characters and females playing male characters? I have never really had trouble with this in any of my campaigns, so I allow my players to play either gender as they wish. 2 campaigns I currently DM involve several of my cousins, the youngest of whom is 11 (IIRC), and in these campaigns I forbid any but the most innocent of relationships. Generally, so long as the player is able to handle it, I don't have a problem with it. > 2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters > in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers)? > With respect to #2, this is another case where I, and most of the DM's > I play with, tend to say "It's okay to play multiple characters in different > campaigns, but not in the same campaign". Just as NPC interaction tends > to get 'fractured' due to the fact that the DM usually has to contend with > more than one at a time, one player with multiple PC's can't play both > parts fully. For one thing, its very difficult for the two different > characters to have a conversation, and it also makes it harder for the > player to remember what 'secrets' that person a doesn't yet know about > person b and vice versa. I completely agree with Jenni on this one. When other players have left the game for whatever reason, I have played one-on-one campaigns for a while rather than allow the player to play more than 1 character. There were a few NPCs who frequently adventured with him, but I refused to give the players two characters, basically for the same reasons that Jenni mentioned > Again, there are always exceptions to the rules. I once played in a > game where one of the Players played to identical twins. It was pretty > funny, and since they "had always stuck together since child hood" and > "never kept secrets from one another" it worked. I suppose I could allow this, but this could cause RW problems, i.e. "Why does So&so get 2 players but I only have 1? It's just not fair ":) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:10:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Question... On Wed, 21 May 1997, Sebastian Quiles wrote: > > On Thu, 15 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > > > > > with his PK-47 assault rifle!"). Also thought to be good (and here I > > > actually agree for a change) is the Star Wars "D6" system. I have > > > numerous times thought about grafting bits of Star Wars rules into D&D. > > > Perhaps replacing the skill system, for instance. > > > The D&D system it's great because it's SIMPLE...you can make a new rule > in somes seconds, and take that as an standart. It's very simple to memorize > and to learn... I don't think it's "realistic"... it's more a system than > lets you become a GREAT and POWERFULL heroic warrior, so you don't will be > killed by a one-eyed Kobold, at least a Big Red Dragon... > > I don't like the SW system, because the "dificulty" of a task it's > imposed by the DM... I prefer the systems with more mathematicals > based results like the percentile... so IMO th best RPG system it's > the RuneQuest one (Chtulhu, Aquelarre...) Have you tried Pendragon? Much like Runequest but with d20 rather than d% Makes thingsrun easier. Im in favour of few rules so that the Roleplaying gets more attention than the actual rules. Sure. I had lots of fun with good old D&D, but recently Ive got the 'level'systems stuck in my throut. D&D is simple, but if you want simple you could just as well go for the White Wolf systems, right? (though a bit too simple and not too suited for fantasy IMHO) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:36:22 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Achelos Story This story should be generally known to the characters, but they might need to go to a bard or sage, or even just a local, if they do not come from Karameikos or if the DM determines they don't know the story. Two stories are here: first the Traladaran version, second the Thyatian version. The differences are subtle, but important. This is the story of the conquest of the Cruth Lowlands of Traladara by the Tyatian invaders around 900 A.C. These stories are fairly well-known in Karameikos, each race knowing its own version, but the facts of the conquest outweigh it: no significant magic was used in the conquest of Traladara except at Marilinev, and even there they used nothing comparable to this "magic army" which has since disappeared. People everywhere, especially Thyatians, view the magic army as sheer fiction, and this is viewed as a children's story. Traladaran version: King Achelos II was a great king of his land more than a hundred years ago. Things were different then. The Traladaran people ruled themselves, living free in the woods and hills of their beautiful homeland. King Achelos II ruled wisely and honorably, and there were those who said that, perhaps, the great King Achelos of old had returned in this, his descendent. The Traladaran people lived free lives in the wilds, protected by their generous king and queen, Achelos and Darilla, his beautiful wife. However, the peace of the Traldarans was not to last. Invaders came from the land of Thyatis. They desired to take the land of Traladara, to use it to further the aims of their emperor. King Achelos II led his people in the fight to defend their land against the invaders. The forces of Achelos held the Thyatians off, repelling their attacks. The Thyatians would occasionally win a battle against isolated villages of small groups they ambushed, but every time the Traldaran heroes of the time tried to stand against the Thyatians in a fair fight, the craven enemies simply fled. The Thyatians did not seem to have any chance against the honorable Achelos. But then came the Thyatian General, Mahmud. He took over the army invading Achelos' lands, and he forced them to fight. Mahmud personally led the charges against the Traladarans, standing his ground, even against the odds. The cowardly Thyatian soldiers were forced to fight by this fearless leader. The Traldarans resolved to fight even harder against this new threat. For years the war slowly continued, with each side winning and losing victories. The Thyatians brought in a neverending stream of soldiers and equipment from their empire, but the Traladarans fought on bravely. They fought to defend every inch of their land, making the Thyatians pay dearly for every victory. One day, in the shadows of Achelos' Mountain, General Mahmud led a battle against a much larger force of defenders. The Traldarans were routing the Thyatians when Mahmud, for the first time in his life, called a retreat. The General stayed behind defending the escape each of his soldiers, but in his valiant attempt to protect his men, he was captured by King Achelos II, himself. All the king's advisors told him that he must kill Mahmud. But Achelos was honorable, and he had been impressed with the general's valiant behaviour. The two leaders spoke in private for many hours, and then Achelos let Mahmud go. Mahmud returned to his camp, and soon repayed Achelos' kindness by sending a magical army against the Traladarans. Mahmud wanted to defeat the Traladarans with the magical army, but he insisted that the army not kill the King. The magical army did its job quickly, before the Traladarans even knew what was happening, King Achelos had surrendered to the rule of the Thyatians. The king retreated into the depths of the earth, where he sleeps in his stronghold, with his ancestor and namesake, until the time when Traladara needs him again. Now there are rumors that Achelos has returned to save his people from the burdensome yoke of oppression under the Thyatians... Now the Thyatian version: The effort to add Traladara to the Thyatian Empire began over a century ago. Nowhere was the struggle as fierce as in the Cruth Lowlands of what is now western Karameikos. The legions fighting in this area were predominantly bands from the Duchy of Tel Akbir, and they met fierce resistance from the natives. Elsewhere in Trladara, the aboriginal inhabitants skulked around, sabotaging the Thyatian war effort. The dogs also tried these tactics in the Cruth, but their king, Achelos II, did not allow this. He tought his subjects to stand up and fight like men, and the legions were at a disadvantage because they did not know the territory. The emperor, in his great wisdom, sent a new general to the Cruth, General Mahmud the Valiant. He tought the soldiers fighting in Traladara that they must be strong and brave to fight against these armies. He personally led them into battle against the Traladarans, standing his ground, even against the odds. But the Traladarans continued to fight, and the Thyatians lost many men. But they continued to press forward, forcing the Traldarans to retreat ever farther in the face of progress and civilization. One day, in the foothills of the Black Peak Mountains, the brave General Mahmud led a battle against a much larger force of natives. The Traldarans were routing the Thyatians when Mahmud, for the first time in his life, called a retreat. The General stayed behind defending the escape each of his soldiers, but in his valiant attempt to protect his men, he allowed himself to be take prisoner by Achelos so that the king would allow his forces to escape. All the Achelos' advisors told him that he must kill Mahmud. But Achelos was honorable, and he had been impressed with the general's valiant behaviour. The two leaders spoke in private for many hours, and then the honorable Achelos let Mahmud go. Mahmud returned to Camp Riverfork. A few days after his return, he received an ultimatum from the Emperor: either force the surrender of Traladara in three months or face Hattian legions sent to defeat bothe the Traldarans and the Thyatian soldiers who, by failing, had proved their disloyalty to the emperor. Although the brave general cared not for his own life, he worried about his own men. He squandered his entire family fortune on a magic army to send to civilize the Traladarans. When he learned that the Hattian legion had landed only a few days' march away, he redoubled his efforts, sending the magical army with orders only to spare King Achelos II. Mahmud's efforts paid off, and he finally conquered the resistance effort. Western Traldara could now take its place as a great part of the empire under the guidance of Mahmud, but this was not to be. Soon after his victory, someone attempted to assasinate the general at a ceremony celebrating the conquest. A guard attacked the assasin just as a quarrel was fired, sending it off course. Mahmud saw the quarrel speeding toward a priest celbrating the ceremony, and he dove into its path. The quarrel was coated with a deadly poison, and Mahmud was instantly slain. The end The party should somehow learn from a magic-user or sage studying this tale who believes that there must be some truth to the legend of a magical army. An accomplice of the NPC recently investigated: he thought that it must still exist, but he was never heard from again. What is known is that he was somehow interested in some sort of horse festival in the village of Allia-Colba. The party should either be hired to investigate the magic army or else decide to investigate themselves. On the other hand, the party could begin the adventure simply trying to fix the corruption and hatred in this part of Karameikos. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:42:31 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) On Thu, 22 May 1997 Jenni asked: >1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing >female characters and females playing male characters? I would say no, I wouldn't let any of my players do this under ordinary circumstances... >2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters >in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) Again I wouldn't let them, except in special cases. (See below.) > With regards to #1, I (and most of the other DM's I happen to play with) >personally feel that, in general, it is difficult for a female to >'realistically' play a male and vice versa. As a result, we don't usually >allow it. And the rare times when we have allowed it, it usually just didn't >work out in the end. I agree, this is the reason I don't allow it. > I'll admit that I've met one player who could pull this trick off >phenomenally well -- there was this one guy I knew who could just BE a >woman character, and you /totally/ believed that she was a she. But he's >the only one I've run across who could do it. Many DM's I've known could >pull it off for NPC's, mostly because they were 'transient' -- you didn't >spend more than a few minutes with them at any particular point in the >game. And even when you did, because the DM is all the NPC's and other >general game mechanics, direct interaction with that particular >'personality' is frequently not as consistent as it is with a PC. Interesting perspective. I suppose you're right, NPCs aren't usually that solid. > With respect to #2, this is another case where I, and most of the DM's >I play with, tend to say "It's okay to play multiple characters in different >campaigns, but not in the same campaign". Just as NPC interaction tends >to get 'fractured' due to the fact that the DM usually has to contend with >more than one at a time, one player with multiple PC's can't play both >parts fully. For one thing, its very difficult for the two different >characters to have a conversation, and it also makes it harder for the >player to remember what 'secrets' that person a doesn't yet know about >person b and vice versa. Again, I agree with your reasons, they're my reasons too. > Again, there are always exceptions to the rules. I once played in a >game where one of the Players played to identical twins. It was pretty >funny, and since they "had always stuck together since child hood" and >"never kept secrets from one another" it worked. I actually did (still do in fact) have a campaign where one player plyed ideantical twins. Except that they were both Shadow Elves - one was a shaman, the other not. They were very close, and it worked fine. Each character had his own little quirks and personality, and it worked far better than I had thought it would. Anyway, it also has opened some pretty interesting plot opportunities. One of them came across a helmet of alignment changing, and decided to leave the party in the middle of a dangerous adventure. Worse, he has now been "transformed" by an Immortal into a slightly different character - the Immortal was tied in with the party because they saw him ascending to Immortality, and indeed they nearly stopped him. Of course, the character, Jaden, has now been shown the error of their ways, and is repenting by serving the Immortal... but the player doesn't know this - yet... ;-) I plan to eventually start up a parallel campaign (this is partly due to inavailability of the original two players) where Jaden adventures with another follower of the Immortal. Thus, I will have parallel campaigns in which the same player has a character in each. Cool, huh? Just goes to show, these hard and fast role-playing rules of ours can actually provide great opportunities if we break them occasionally... ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:09:08 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Achelos journey part 1 This details the first part of the adventure set in Western Karameikos and based on by Lloyd Alexander: *** NOTE: throughout this adventure, any time the party speaks to Traladarans, they should focus on the dastardly behaviour of the Fury--they are cowardly and cruel, focusing their attacks on women, children, and the old. Thyatians should describe Traladarans as dirty, uncivilized thieves without honor. The party is travelling toward Riverfork Keep when they see a tiny Traladaran village named Vijohrid. There are only 12 buildings, just off the road, in a semi-circle around a public well. As the characters watch, a band of goblins (or other appropriate humanoid) mounted on wolves ride up the road from the other side. If the characters interfere, one goblin per character attacks the party, while the others go to attack the village. People run screaming from the houses as the goblins set them on fire and begin attacking those who flee. The characters should probably deal with the goblins attacking them fairly quickly, or else simply ignore them. If the characters try to protect the villagers, make sure that the Thyatian character is simply in the right place at the right time to save the most Traladarans, including one tall, lanky young man. A minute or two after the last goblin dies, a group of Fury soldiers (members of the Fury in the West, the overwhelmingly Thyatian division of the Karameikos militia based at Riverfork Keep) comes alowly riding up the road from the direction the goblins came, casually walking their horses toward the burning village. When they see the party and the Traladarans, but no goblins, they rush forward to attack the party. If the party survives, the soldiers claim they thought that THEY were the ones who attacked the village, but the Traldarans will claim (out of the soldiers' earshot) that the Fury is lying. If the soldiers survive, they say that the PCs may rest up a bit, but then they must head directly to Riverfork Keep. If not, the party should head there on their own. Before the PCs go, the Traldarans thank them for saving them and insist they stay the night. The young man saved by the Thyatian character, Lino, offers to go along as their guide. He claims to be from the countryside very near Alba-Collia, and he knows all the short cuts and hidden trails in "All Achelos' Kingdom." Try to get the party to accept him. *** The next day the party leaves after a night of feasting, travel a full day, and arrive at Riverfork Keep in the evening. They should probably choose to stay in the inn, where their room, the "luxury suite," is about the size of a broom closet. This evening they should also report to the keep as instructed by the fury soldiers. They are granted an audience with the General the next afternoon. If they don't want to worry about their papers, have everyone they talk to warn them that they will be quickly executed if caught without the proper documentation. *** They should explore the village surrounding the Keep the next day. Lino is nowhere to be seen all day. As the characters explore the Traladaran market, cries of "Achelos, Achelos!" break out, and a massive riot begins. The characters witness mounted Fury soldiers beat Traladarans with clubs and other (mostly) non-lethal weapons. The party has to join the mass of fleeing people to avoid being trampled to death. The Thyatian PC notices a blind old woman who had been selling flowers in the market about to be trampled by a horse. Assuming that he (or she, but I'm just gonna say he from now on) goes to help her, he gets attacked by a Fury soldier. The party should all be attacked by a couple club-wielding soldiers, but the neutral character should get a massive knife wound in his arm from an unseen assailant. A great number more soldiers appear , these ones armed with lethal weapons, not just clubs. The party should try to retreat, saving themselves and the old lady. They will succeed in escaping into the crowd. *** Later, they should go to the Keep for their audience with the General. Nizar seems a genuinely good man, and he enjoys speaking about the scholarly aspect of the party's mission. Suleiman (his assistant who is also present) keeps returning him to the idea that it would be very dangerous for these "outlanders" to venture into the Cruth backcountry due to the civil unrest. Show the personalities of both here fairly accurately and in-depth (but don't tell the characters that the character descriptions are necessarily true). Make the party work for it, but the final conclusion is that Nizar will provide them with the papers, although he recommends against the trip. If they insist upon going, he will provide them with a temporary pass. Nizar also volunteers without the players asking that the army will provide them with supplies, including horses and a carriage to carry the characters and all the equipment necessary. The necessary visa, travel papers, weapon permits, and archaeological permits will take a couple days to process, but the characters, carrying only one weapon each, may head for Fort Gustos, a small outpost just below the first cataract of the Gustos River, the nearest outpost to Alba-Collia. The fort is about 30 miles away, but since the wagon will have to follow an indirect path, it should take them about 4 days. A couple of horsemen would be sent to the Fort as soon as the papers were in order, and they would meet the party at Fort Gustos, and the party will receive fresh supplies, as well as their weapons, at the fort. The General gives them a warning about "Ethnic Troublemakers," suggests they speak to Natasha, the Keep's magist, and wishes them well. *** Natasha has a fairly common Traladaran first name and an unmistakably Thyatian last name, and she could easily pass as either Traladaran or Thyatian. The neutral character is the only one to notice that she grows slightly pale at the mention of the "Magic Army." She is friendly and seems interested in the party's mission, but she tells them from the start that, although she has a small library of book with local significance, she fears they will find nothing of particular interest to them. Her words are true, and the characters find nothing that will help them. *** That evening a petty officer delivers the equipment, horses, and a beautiful, sturdy-looking, comfortable carriage, as promised by Nizar. *** The next morning the party learns that Lino has sold their carriage and purchased a much cheaper Traladaran wagon. Lino is terrified if any characters yell at him, but he sold the military's gift because the axle was nearly broken and only a couple of big bumps would make it completely undriveable. Lino kept the horses, saying that they were really top-notch, and he gives the party their change. *** The journey to Fort Gustos is marked by a barrage of irrelevant Traladaran proverbs intermingled with an occasional folk song performed by Lino. He leads them on many "shortcuts" through the cackcountry. Any character who rides in the carriage gets covered in bruises from the incredibly rough trail, but the DM should determine some unpleasant weather condition (constant rain, snow, humidity, oppressive heat, mosquitos, etc.) to make it horrible to walk. *** The third day on the road should have some sort of minor wandering monster encounter. *** The group spends the third night out in a small village on the banks of the Gustos. This village has an inn, Lino has a long conversation with a few rough-looking men and women, including one huge Traladaran fighter named Durlasan. Lino soon disappears, and the party should probably go to bed. *** The party is awakened by Lino 2 hours before sunrise. He warns them that there has been some trouble with ethnic insurrection, and the Thyatian soldiers are heading their way. Lino is afraid that some of the people he was talking to last night may have had something to do with the attack, so he feels that it would be best if they simply left as soon as possible. He seems very sincere and there is an extreme sense of urgency in his voice. The characters should agree. But remember that they probably cast some of their spells the day before (the wandering monster encounter), and they do not get a chance to rememorize spells. *** About an hour after sunrise, the group is bumping along one of Lino's shortcuts, and they suddenly pop out onto the main trail, right in front of a company of Fury soldiers! Unless the party wants to fight 60 soldiers, the company stops the wagon and searches it. They abuse Lino and give him grief, but they finally agree that the temporary papers given by Nizar allow the party passage. They apologize, state that they can not be too careful with these Traldaran dogs, and that they fought a band of the rebels only a few hours before. Because of the danger of travelling this area (there are rumors spreading around this area that Achelos is in the region), the militia offers the characters an escort the rest of the way to Fort Gustos. *** The soldiers are very boisterous and even fairly friendly, but they occasionally spit on Lino or mock him. In the late afternoon, a scout returns to the company and reports that another band of rebels has been sighted to the east, and the company whoops and hollers, and everyone rides off without even saying good-bye. *** Lino is rather quiet the rest of the day and until the next morning, when he brightens up and becomes firendly and outgoing again. *** After two more days (yes, the 4-day journey took six) of shortcuts, proverbs, and songs (and perhaps a wandering monster or 2), the party finally arrives at Fort Gustos, tired and sore. *** The fort is a small affair: a wooden stockade against the river, with a few wooden buildings, a couple tents, several horses grazing, and two rowboats of the dock. The rapids are visible upstream, and a very faint roar is constantly heard. Several gaunt looking Traladaran servants tend some goats grazing inside the stockade. *** Lino stays outside to watch the wagon and tend the horses while the characters go in to talk to Lieutenant alJusif, the commander of Ft. Gustos. The party must wait to see alJusif, and a few Fury soldiers (who appear to be receiving less than the standard military rations) tell the party that ever since an entire company was captured , stripped, and tied naked to trees in the hills south of the fort a couple days before, the lieutenant has been very busy. The characters learn that there was only one company of soldiers patrolling the Gustos region at the time, so battle with the rebels must have gone badly for the party's military escort. *** The lieutenant is an obscenely fat, oily man with slicked back, jet black hair. He informs the party that no riders have arrived from Riverfork in over a week. He does not have their papers or supplies, and he refuses to give them any supplies. He also tells them that, though their papers permit them freedom and one weapon each, they would not be permitted to arm themselves any further or receive any more supplies from the fort until the horsemen arrived. He then rudely indicates that the audience is over. *** Upon returning outside, they find Lino sitting with their packs in the dirt. The horses and wagon are gone. Lino sadly looks up and says, "AlJusif's orders." Althought the lieutenant refuses to see them again, his assistant tells them that their papers cover them and their personal equipment, not their horses or wagon. There is no place to sleep in the fort, so the party has to either camp out or walk to Allia-Colba (which should take all day). They should choose the latter, ford the Gustos, and head Northeast. *** After a brutal day of whatever weather condition is antagonizing the party, as well as the equally-agonizing Traladaran proverbs, the party finally arrives in the small, dusty town of Allia-Colba (about 120 inhabitants in the town, more in the surrounding countryside). This villae also ahs a small inn, and the characters get a tiny, cramped room and go to sleep. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:27:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Kogolor Gaz I wouldn't presume to speak for Mischa or Thorfinn, but here are my thoughts, based on some of my past work on the Kogolors (mainly through my Blackmoor canonical timeline): On Fri, 23 May 1997, DM wrote: > 1. Age: what is the maximum age for a Kogolor dwarf? I assume it's 400... > is it? I'd say so, yes. Recall that the first Regent of the Mines (can't think of his name offhand- I could shoot myself), was reckoned to be something like 900 or so. I'd say the Kogolors are probably on average, longer lived than Rockhome dwarves. But that might just be me. :) > 3. Kogolor clan: you wrote that it once was a powerful clan buit it has now > declined. How can this be possible considering the effect of the Spell of > Preservation? My understanding of the SoP is that it allows leeway among cultural elements, though it won't allow those elements to disappear completely. Ie, the Kogolors won't ever die out, but they can change in their degree of influence over time. Sort of like with the Azcans, and the decline in worship of Ixion and Ka, and the increased worship of Atzanteotl. > 5. Skiis: you wrote that they are the only population of the HW to use > skiis, but IIRC the Icevale Elves use them too. Do IRC? In this case, have > they adopted the skiis from the Kogolors? I don't recall for sure either, but my recollection and yours seem to go together. :) It could be that the Icevale elves have sleds instead... I'll have to check. > 6. Foreign relations: i think they should be more "interactive" with the > surrounding communities, but that's just my point of view. There aren't really all that many surrounding communities, IIRC. The Krugels and Schattenalfen don't get along with them at all. The only other neighbors, IIRC, are the Oltecs, and I don't see the Kogolors engaging in more than occasional interaction, maybe a little bit of trade, with them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:12:41 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: Working in a New DM (was Re: [Mystara] example) On Fri, 23 May 1997 "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" wrote: I agree with all of the stuff you said. :-) > You know, I've also noticed that what is a 'mistake' to one person, is >just a different decision to another person. For example, in /my/ campaign >I tell my players to think of one silver piece as having the approximate >purchase power of $2 today (that's Canadian, BTW). And so a copper is about >20 cents. On the other hand, one of my players, when /he/ is the DM, he >says a silver piece has the purchase power of about $5 and so a copper is >about 50 cents. To each his (or her) own -- I just have to remember what >his system is when I'm a player in his game and he has to remember mine >when he's a player in mine. That's interesting. In my campaign, Gold is worth 1 pound, Electrum 50p, Silver 10p, Copper 1p. That means that silver pieces are very useless - you need three to get a bar of chocolate! ;-) > Anyway, I think that Rookie DM's should be allowed to learn by making >mistakes and the Experienced Players under Rookie DM's should provide >/suggestions/ and /advice/ (if asked for) and /constructive criticism/ >AFTER THE FACT (i.e., not during play, because it spoils the flow and >can ruin the fun for all). Yes, I definitely agree with what you're saying. But it also helps to have some bad experiences! (not a joke.) Seriously, you truly can learn from your mistakes more than your successes. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:03:51 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Achelos journey part 2 The next section of the adventure set in Western Karameikos: *** The party is awakened in the middle of the night, in an inn later on the night of their arrival in Allia-Colba. This time it is the innkeeper who awakens them, begging them to leave his establishment. It seems that alJusif's men followed the heroes to this inn. They burst in and told the innkeeper that his business would be beurned down if the outlanders were allowed to stay. The soldiers inform them that they have learned of plans for a massive uprising, and alJusif did not want the characters to get involved. The innkeeper begs the characters to leave, and once they do, he refuses to let them back in. *** Lino leads the party to a barn at the edge of the village. The characters are exhausted, be sure to stress this to them, but if they ask about the barn, Lino tells them not to worry and just go to sleep. They curl up in the straw on the ground and go to sleep. *** The party is once-again awakened, this time by the returning inhabitants of the barn. Several goats wander in early the next morning, seeking refuge from the storm (either rain or snow) that has just broken. The goats, after a minor struggle, accept their new neighbors and settle in with them, occasionally trying to eat something in someone's hand. By the time the characters are recuperated enough to get up, the road is impassable from the storm. They'll be in Allia-Colba for a few days at least. *** The next couple days is spent hanging around Allia-Colba. AlJusif's men seem to have forgotten about the group, at least for now. The party gets to know some of the Traladaran natives better, and become friends with some of them. Lino seems always to be there except when he is needed. In such cases, he often cannot be found for hours at a time. The party learns of an upcoming festival to celebrate the beginning or middle or end of some season or another (in your campaign, it should prbably be a bit more specific). The inhabitants won't say anything about it except that it's a huge event and the "Maiden of the Spring" (or Fall, or winter...) would ride in on the white horse (clever characters might at this point remember that they heard something about a horse festival in Allia-Colba. One of the PCs think they see Durlasan in the village, but he ducks out of sight before they can be sure. *** After the second night in he barn, a party member finds something buried in the straw: a Karameikan Fury in the West militia uniform. Several more are located before Lino sees and says, "it is best to leave these where they are. The village has taken you under its wing--it is best not to question it." *** If the party mentions to Lino a desire to see the festival, he tells them that they should not attend, that they would be unwelcome. *** The Traladarans tell the party they are more than welcome at the festival. *** The festival is well-attended by many Traladarans, as well as a large contingent of the Fury. The night of the festival begins with a procession of a dozen or so strangely-dressed dancers.. There is a withered old man with white hair and a heavy coat, a pretty young girl wearing delicate green, etc. If the players figure it out, or perhaps with an intelligence check, there is one dancer who represents each of the twelve seasons. There is a massive bonfire, and everyone dances around the fire until the arrival of the Maiden of the Spring, riding her white mare.. As the maiden joins the wild dancing, there are loud, boisterous cheers, which soon change to cries of "Achelos, Achelos!" "Achelos has returned!" and, even most frightening, "Achelos is among us!" Near what the characters perceive as the center of the chant, they see Durlasan egging the villagers on. *** The Fury cavalry rides in, attacking with large clubs, even occasionally slashing with wicked-looking sabres. The party is forced toward the fire, and they must split up to avoid it. The Thyatian character(s) sees a young boy, about 12 years old, brandishing a burning branch at the oncoming Fury soldier. If he tries, the Thyatian can save the boy, but he is permanently seperated from the other half of the group. He continues to have opportunites to save Traladarans as long as it seems preactical. *** The Traladaran character(s), on the other hand, finds himself forced into the middle of a very different battle. Durlasan is leading a group of large Traladarans beating and toruring fallens soldiers laying in agony on the ground. They rob dying soldiers and stab others in the back. The character must make the decision who to help. *** More cavalry rides in from the outskirts of town, and all the Traladarans who can flee do, taking whatever PCs are with them. The party is reunited at Achelos' Fortress, a secret rebel base in one of the cave under the Black Peak Mountains. They are well-tended. A group of 4 men and one woman walk into the room, talking. Durlasan is telling them something; Lino and some other Traladarans are listening. As they enter the chamber, it falls quiet. After Durlasan finishes speaking, Lino nods his head at him and walks over to the party. Durlasan begins giving orders to various people hanging around the fortress. Lino explains that they are in Achelos' stronghold, and it is being considered whether they can be trusted to be let go. Lino sadly explains that he warned them not to come to the festival, for now, since no outlanders know of their secret, they might not be allowed to leave. A character should probably ask Durlasan for permission to leave. Durlasan will state that only Achelos himself may grant that permission, nodding toward Lino, who grins sheepishly. *** Unless the party has been really cruel to Lino, he grants them permission to leave, so long as they swear to tell no one. He also offers to journey with them again. *** The storm has mostly passed, and the party is able to leave. The first group of Traladarans to arrive after the refugees from Allia-Colba came up the River Achelos, and they arrive shortly before the group is ready to leave. The excitedly report that the storm had caused a fresh collapse at Achelos' Castle, allowing access to a secret dugeon beneath that no one knew existed. Lino suggests that they search this chamber, since it may provide clues to the final fate of King Achelos. *** It takes half a day to get to the "castle," sailing down the Achelos River. The castle is actually an ancient Milenian-style temple, collapsing from its great age. The party has to deal with soggy ground, unstable ruins, flooded chambers, and trapped creatures in exploring the dungeon. It is a fairly small undergound area, and they can quickly explore the whole area. Give the players a couple minor monster encounters to keep them on their toes. They also see a shelf covered with figurines between 20 and 25 cm tall, ornately decorated and gilded in the costumes of the dancers at the festival. An especially obeservant character MIGHT notice that there are 15 figurines, rather than 12. Mixed in with the other figurines are three chess peices of very similar construction: a Traldaran King, a Traladaran Queen, and a Patriarch of Chardastes. The three chessmen radiate magic, but each of the other figurines is worth at least 500 gp in Mirros. *** The real treasure in this secret dungeon, however, lies behind yet another secret door. In one passageway, there are a few feet of rubble littering the floor in front of an illusionary wall. Unless the characters climb unto the rubble or find another way of testing the phantasm, they don't notice the opening. Behind the opening they find a low table, unharmed by the age, on which rests a beautiful, ornately decorated giant onyx chess board. The entire Traladaran side, except for the King, Queen, and one bishop are there. On the Thyatian side, 2 pawns, a knight, and a rook are the only things. All these things radiate strong magic, so much so that any magi-using character, or any elf, can feel the powerful magic radiating from these items. *** Upon returning to the outer chamber, the group runs into Natasha Tibonerial. She (actually a projected image) thanks them for retrieving the artifact for her. She's bee searching for it for years. Now she can make sure that no one ever steals from her the power that is rightfully hers. She has a big long speech in which she explains how brilliant she is (classic villain speech), tells the heroes that it is rather ironic, they will die in the same place as King Achelos II did. She cackles maniacally, disappears, then begins sending fireballs in to collapse the tunnel. *** If the players are at least semi-intelligent, they retreat into the secret room, then try to claw their way out of their brand-new tomb.. They take too long to get out, and they fear that Natasha is long gone. But she is up in front of the ruins with Suleiman, arguing about who double-crossed whom. Natasha soon flees, but then it is Suleiman's turn to cackle maniacally, play the psycopathic villain, etc. It should be a thrilling battle, but the party should hopefully eventually triumph, perhaps with some divine assistance. However, Suleiman should be allowed to escape to plot even more evil, and to take his revenge on the players. *** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #87 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #88 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, May 24 1997 Volume 02 : Number 088 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:05:48 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Adventure modules > On Wed, 21 May 1997 DM wrote: > > I'd like some more information on these 2 modules: > >IM1 the Immortal Storm > >IM3 Best of Intentions > >Not that i'm planning to run them now, i'm just curious... > >Thanx > >PS: use the spoiler space please... Thorfinn wrote: > I can tell you a very small amount... > > SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IM1 involves travelling to an outer plane where magic doesn't work at > all, even Immortal magic. Essentially the plane is the real world, and > the Immortal characters travel to or in Chicago and New York. As to the > rest of the plot, I'm afraid I don't know. As it happens the IM1 is one of the three (i think) TSR published adventures I have DM:ed, so I think I can aswer to this one... The Basic plot of the IM1 is, that there is a new strange vortex at the end of the universum, threathning to destroy it all, and the High-immortals want to have it stopped by a rookie bunch of new immortals (the PC:s). First the players have to solve o puzzle to get the job. The puzzle is a poem, letters mixed to make an other poem. I didnt like the puzzle at all, as it testes the abilities of the players, not the characters. Also it is quite hard, at least for us foreigners... But the players did it (Alma, Omeos, Peleon and Catrin Pathfinder). Then they start a serie of adventures, collecting 'senses', or at least some kind of magical essences of senses. This takes them to 5 different planes. I disliked excpecially the one where they collected the sound. To play it well, the players needed a lot of information of musical terms and theories... Only the last one, the one in Chicago was good work IMO. And when the senses are collected, one of them gets to 'kill' the vortex with one of the Hierarching immortals... The adventure is not good. It needs wery well educated players in couple places. The plot isn't wery good, and the planes arent wery interesting, with the exception of the Chigago. But anyway... I modified it a lot, putting flesh on the bones, and I suppose it was eventually all right. Allthough I could make a better adventure my self any day. Bought it for 5 marks (a dollar) though, and it did have a couple of interesting ideas, so I am not too dissapointed. So There. Bee free to ask more. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 97 22:09:14 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] exampl e) Good questions. My (and my players) problem is that there are only two regular players in the group plus myself the DM. I have therefore allowed them to play multiple PC's one of whom is a woman (the character not the player). OK he called her Tartella (not a good start) but he does play her very well. Also there is a wide range of styles of play within the game. I can usually tell who is speaking and acting without asking. he player. I may be lucky in that my players can do this. Trimus D'Alberon. - ---------- From: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com on behalf of Jenni A. M. Merrifield Sent: 23 May 1997 06:23 To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Subject: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) At 05:27 AM 5/23/97 +0300, Nickolas Pavlis wrote: >P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players >(a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. This reminded me of two questions I'd been meaning to ask: 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing female characters and females playing male characters? 2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:55:51 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] example At 05:27 23-05-97 +0300, you wrote: >We are certaintly having fun.No doubt about it.But listen to this: >As they were closing into the conclusion of the last adventure they >faced an 10th level mage.And they beat the hell out of him easily. >In other cases some other monsters, which should be more or less >difficult for them, they destroyed them like a piece of cake. >So I'm thinking seriously make things harder because after all it's >meaningless if it's too easy for them,right? > >P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players >(a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. Hehehe... If you do cut his head off, make it a good story and post it here :) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:47:54 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] What to do. At 00:14 23-05-97 +0300, you wrote: >I am a new DM.I would like some opinions for the following things: >We've got here a:Magic user with an AC of 1 > Elf with an AC of -2 > Fighter with an AC of -3 > another Fighter with an AC of -3 > one more Fighter with an AC of -4 >So I would like to know:Is it too much?If so what should I do? >I'd like to add that all the above characters are at Level 3 and they >also have many magical items such as swords not less with a +3 bonus. Well...they do have a huge number of magical items. :) I suggest removing some items (by thieves or something) or let them be defeated once, give them some real tough opponent (don't kill the PCs, though). It might give a good adventure, if they try to get their items back (which they shouldn't, unless you want strong PCs....) Deathwatch, Proud member of Tau, Commodore of the MFRG Tool of Pain OT: Deathwatch, VDSM Dign/C Def/KCT MO:M O:J O:H *JHWMN* MIN:CHAN FIST DH ADSS [L/Ar L/Am S] iNavy: Primarch/iVA/Deathwaatch/TFCOM-EXE/ISDExe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:49:19 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks I just heard something about that some time ago, when I was looking for Mystara stuff. Maybe its not protected now...(I really hope so) Oh, Mystaros, nice page! At 14:04 22-05-97 -0500, you wrote: >Form: Reply >Text: (19 lines follow) >So, lesse if this clears Bruce and his nose for cpyright peculiarities: > >If I give Mystaros permission to use my posts, which, by the TOS should be >part-owned by me, would he have the power to (legally) include them on his >webpage? >What about my netMAGs? Just because I uploaded them to TSR/AOL does that >mean I lose the ability to determine where else they appear? I understand >that they are not copyrighted (or copyright-able) by me or anyone else, but >does that prevent them from being uploaded elsewhere, too? > >just some random off-topic ramblings > >LT Brant D. Guillory >3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR >TF Supply Officer >CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil >PH (408) 386-2137 >DSN 686-2710/2137 > >Original text: (34 lines follow) >>From CRLPTONI @ SMTP {CRlPTONITE@aol.com}, on 5/22/97 15:22: >>>>Why does it seem that most cool Mystara stuff is on AOL? :) >>>Is it? If so, I'm sure some of us non-AOL people would appreciate >>>kindly AOL subscribers redistributing that stuff to the list... >>>Any volunteers? ;-) >>> >>>Thorf. >> I think there is a copyright problem or something with that... >> Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl > >i just read over the terms of service >i was going to post the section but everyone would be asleep by the end of >it >plus youd probably have to read it a few times >to figure out what the hell theyre trying to say > >let me summarize: >aol has the rights to everything on aol >including posts to folders >once you post it they can do whatever they want with it >aol users can do what they want too >but only for their own personal use >the writer of the post is the only other one with full rights >mystaros mentioned putting his posts on a web page >he can do that with no problem >but if he put other peoples posts there would be > >anyways thats my interpetation >you could always check out tsr online yourself >with one of aols free packages >i think theyve sent me a thousand of them > >---Crip > >Use Proportional Font: true >Previous From: CRLPTONI @ SMTP {CRlPTONITE@aol.com} >Previous To: MYSTARA- @ SMTP {mystara-l@lists.io.com} >Original to: MYSTARA- @ SMTP {mystara-l@lists.io.com} > > Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:01:33 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) At 22:23 22-05-97 -0700, you wrote: >At 05:27 AM 5/23/97 +0300, Nickolas Pavlis wrote: >>P.S.:Do not pay any attention to George Milonas.He's one of my players >>(a female fighter).Actually IT'S HIS HEAD I'M THINKING TO CUT OFF. > > This reminded me of two questions I'd been meaning to ask: > >1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing >female characters and females playing male characters? As Player, I find it really hard to do realisticly, and as DM, I usually don't allow it, since it doesn't really work out. If someone in my group can play a woman real good, I would allow it, but otherwise, no. >2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters >in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) I think that when you do that, the players characters will always back each other up, and have the same opinions. I would allow it if the player can roleplay well, and has a good reason for playing two characters who are much alike. (Twins) > With regards to #1, I (and most of the other DM's I happen to play with) >personally feel that, in general, it is difficult for a female to >'realistically' play a male and vice versa. As a result, we don't usually >allow it. And the rare times when we have allowed it, it usually just didn't >work out in the end. > > I'll admit that I've met one player who could pull this trick off >phenomenally well -- there was this one guy I knew who could just BE a >woman character, and you /totally/ believed that she was a she. But he's >the only one I've run across who could do it. Many DM's I've known could >pull it off for NPC's, mostly because they were 'transient' -- you didn't >spend more than a few minutes with them at any particular point in the >game. And even when you did, because the DM is all the NPC's and other >general game mechanics, direct interaction with that particular >'personality' is frequently not as consistent as it is with a PC. > > With respect to #2, this is another case where I, and most of the DM's >I play with, tend to say "It's okay to play multiple characters in different >campaigns, but not in the same campaign". Just as NPC interaction tends >to get 'fractured' due to the fact that the DM usually has to contend with >more than one at a time, one player with multiple PC's can't play both >parts fully. For one thing, its very difficult for the two different >characters to have a conversation, and it also makes it harder for the >player to remember what 'secrets' that person a doesn't yet know about >person b and vice versa. > > Again, there are always exceptions to the rules. I once played in a >game where one of the Players played to identical twins. It was pretty >funny, and since they "had always stuck together since child hood" and >"never kept secrets from one another" it worked. I had two PCs play twins of each other. It was quite funny. They always fought about little things, but when an "outsider" came into the arguement, they started hitting on him (or her). It was quite funny. > So there's my take on the topics. I'd like to hear what you think. > >Jenni A. M. Merrifield >-=> strawberryJAMM <=- > >-- > Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs > strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ ><------------------------------------------------------------------> > God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. > Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" > And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" > > > > Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:57:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] re: Mystara netbooks In a message dated 97-05-24 06:53:00 EDT, Deathwatch wrote: << I just heard something about that some time ago, when I was looking for Mystara stuff. Maybe its not protected now...(I really hope so) Oh, Mystaros, nice page! >> I still don't know what's up legalities wise; I've placed copyright notices on my page concerning all the material I am posting. I *will not* ever post anything that is directly from any TSR product, only stuff I've developed myself, or has been developed by others. Preferably, wht I would like to see happen is that everyone develop their own pages dedicated to Mystara and what have you, then we simply link them all together! That way we can each keep our own ditinctiveness to our materials and our campaigns, while still showing a "united front", so to speak. I have a link to Thorf's page on mine, and I'll put a link to the Mystara-L page if it's kosher. I also have Kalamar material (Kenzer & Co.) that I will be putting up; it is legal, as I have obtained permission to do so... Thanks for the compliment! I'm still building all my links, and adding more every day (when my wife let's me on the computer that is :). My Blackmoor History is now completely posted, and I should have a few more up soon, though thereafter I will be concentrating on Kalamar for a week or two... Mystaros www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1437/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:59:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] MOrient On Sun, 4 May 1997, Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins wrote: > On Sun, 4 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > > > BTW, what have others done with Ochalea? I've seen one explanation elsewhere > > that it was hypothesised that the Ochaleans were a race native to the > > Alphatian continent when the Alphatians arrived (a lost Oltec colony, > > perhaps?), and that they were dumped on the Isle of Ochalea sort of as a > > penal colony/reservation, along with Common Alphatian "undesireables" (I > > think Isaw this on a web page once, perhaps Musseus? I'm not sure). I've also > > seen references to the "MOrient" project. Who is involved with that and what > > is it? > About the MOrient project, we are trying to develop oriental civilizations > in Skothar, starting with chinese and japanese ones, after having decided > for a basic outline of the countries in the continent. It is being very > quiet in the last month or two, but I hope it is just we are very busy > lately (I know I am). Anyway, you'd be welcome if you wanted to contribute > to it. Just a litle idea. In China there are myths of a Golden Age. The Empire of Xi IRC. If there is a similar myth in MChina, could there be a Xi/Blackmoor/Thonia analogy? :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:19:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) On Fri, 23 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > >Im planning on making something on the Church of thyatis and its various > >Temples, but there is very litle information in DotE. I'm not even sure > >which Immortals were the original Thyatian ones. > >Im thinking of making the Church of thyatis something like Roman > >Mythology. It is probably inspired by the Old Traldaran faith. > > I assume you know about the list of Immortals in Book II of Dawn of the > Emperors, then? It gives enough information for at least a good > starting point. It even tells you who the chief Immortal is! (Vanya, I > think.) Yes. From what is written there it seems that the major Immortals of Thyatis(in alfabethical order) are: Asterius Protius Tarastia Valerias Vanya (& the evil ones; Alphaks and Thanatos) The rest from the list are imported from other cultures/races. Mystaros mentioned something about Sun Templars, probably his own creation(?), but I too, feel that Ixion should have a major role in Thyatian religion. After all he is the Supreme Power Immortal according to the HW boxed set. He seems like the natural choice as a leader of the original Thyatian Pantheon. Something like Jupiter from Roman Mythology. Vanya is probably the most popular Immortal these days, but I think her popularity increased greatly after the Church was fractioned into several temples. BTW: Should Ixion be known as Ixion in Thyatis? Also, I find it a bit odd that Vanya is so popular when women are generally looked down upon in the Empire. Nyx should probably be included in the pantheon as well, though not neccesarily as one of the evil ones.. > > On the subject of Thyatian Immortals, in my campaign I have a PC who is > a cleric of Tarastia, and I sort of decided that her clerics are very > often military and civilian investigators/detectives. It seems to work > well. It's also quite fun having a PC who swears revenge and justice > for everything done against him... I had the PCs get ripped off by a > merchant, and the cleric PC is calmly plotting revenge, waiting for the > day they return to Thyatis City. Good idea. Have you worked out any more details on the Temple of Tarastia? > Even better, during the caravan trip they were attacked by ghouls, and > one of the dwarf mercenaries had his arm ripped off. When the PCs found > that one of the ghoul's eyes was a 1000 gp gem, the PC insisted they > give it to the dwarf in repayment for his arm. Needless to say, he got > some extra XP for that. :-) pretty cool :) I'd very much appreciate comments on what I've written above as it will help me develope those ideas further.. Haavard - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:48:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos On Wed, 21 May 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > The Church of Karameikos > > > > The White Light: The White Light is what we came from. In the beginning > > the world was created from the White Light. The White Light is Knowledge, > > Purity and Illumination > > > > The Darkness: As the word came between the White Light and the people, > > the world cast a shadow. People living in the darkness forgot the beauty > > and purity of the White Light. They learned about greed and selfishness, > > and thus, Evil came upon the world. > > I'd say that in the beginning it was the light: there weren't people but > only souls. Than we got a body and, with the body, all its mortal > temptations. The bodies casted the shadows and the darkness came. Cool. We could probably use both. In religions there are often several stories which are slightly different. Even contradictions can be cool. A true occultist knows logic is a distraction from the greater mysteries :) > > The Moon: There were many Prophets in the Old world. But Evil was also > > present. The Greatest of Prophets, Asterius saw that Darkness was evil, > > and warned the people of the Old World. But they would not listen. As > > Evil turned upon itself, the Old World was destryed, but the White > > Lights spared Asterius. > > Asterius asceneded to dwell among the Immortals, and he > > created the Moon to reflect the White Light at night. > > Great idea! I think the Church of Karameikos could have a special > religious service every night of full moon. And every follower must make > amends for his sins before the next full moon; otherwise he'll have to > spend a longer time in Limbo, before he can be admitted at the Crystal > Halls of the Five Moons. What do you think? That sounds good. Got any ideas on what those ceremonies should involve? I thought of giving Priests special benefits/disadvantages depending of the phases of the Moon, but then again rules are a bit booring.. On the Crystal Halls. This is the Church's equivalent of Heaven. The Homeplane of Asterius. My though was a huge crystal building, (maybe something like Superman's Fortress of Solitude) which was continually washed in white moonlight. In this place they would be reunited with their ancestors and dine with the immortals. (slightly inspired by the Jewish Heaven/Gehenna) Fulgar: This was originally one of Zeus titles, meaning hurler of lightning. In D&D they are Immortals who serve powerful lawful wizards/priests. They appear as winged babies or black cats or Hawks. As Patrick and I thought it makes more sense if they are servants of the imortals who are sent to aid clerics or other followers. An idea. Asterius sends his Fulgar(preferring the winged baby shape) to most of his devote clerics when they reach 10th level. Odins Fulgars are probably in the shape of Ravens (not exactly Hawks but..) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:17:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos Church wanted!! On Thu, 22 May 1997, DM wrote: > I have unwittingly erased the post detailing the Church of Karameikos by > Haavard (IIRC).. please, could you resend it to me? You know my address, thanks. It has been sent your way.. > > Also, adding to the thread, i think D&D already has its angels: the Archons, > which are the Ultimate Lawful (of course, this doesn't mean they're good, > but only that they despise chaos... and this arises an interesting question: > how could an Immortal from Energy have created Archons, Champions of Law, if > Energy is the foremost chaotic Sphere of them all after Entropy?) > As for demons, why not to call them Daimons (more philosophycally) or even > Draculi, which is a slavic term for demon (and the karameikos church could > have borrowed it from the Traladaran language)? I suppose Lawful Energy Immortals could create them. But still you have a point. What does Daimons mean? As for Darculi, I think maybe thats better to use as the Traldaran name for demons. I think the Traldaran and Karameikan Chuches should be kept as different as possible. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:55:15 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] example) At 22.23 22/05/97 -0700, StrawberryJAMM wrote: > This reminded me of two questions I'd been meaning to ask: Interesting questions. > >1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing >female characters and females playing male characters? Actually I've always played or DMed in male-only groups and none of them has ever being interested in playing a female character. When I started my Shadow Elf campaign I proposed one of my players to play a female Shaman (since most of the Shamans are females), but he choosed to be a male. Anyway I must admit that my campaign suffers from a bit of "sexism", because 80% of the NPC and monsters are males. I don't do that on purpose, but when I write down my adventures I rarely think about females NPC, probably because I'm not too god at playing them. > >2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters >in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) > I don't like that, even in players-poor campaigns. My current campaign has only 3 PC, the previous one had 3 PC and 1 NPC. I prefer to use some permanent NPCs guided by me, rather than letting a player play 2 characters. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:45:11 +0300 From: Nostradamus Subject: [Mystara] ideas I'd like some ideas for a new adventure. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:02:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) Haavard Roenne Faanes pontificated: > > Also, I find it a bit odd that Vanya is so popular when women are > generally looked down upon in the Empire. Not really, in China, where women are second class citizen for most of its history, there are many major goddess in the myth. Interestingly, one of the goddess actually was male when first introduced into China, but for some reason changed gender pretty soon afterward. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:41:33 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Achelos artifact Achelos' Chess Set: This beautiful artifact was created by the immortal Chardastes (aka, Achelos). The board is a huge, well-polished, beautiful black and white onyx chessboard. Each square is about 10 cm (4 inches) square, and there is gold between the squares. The 16 squares at the front and back (the first two rows of each side) have a likeness of the piece which belongs there within the onyx. On both sides (not the front & back) there is a storage rack for the pieces. Each piece has its own place on the rack. Thyatian side: All are ornately carved and decorated arabian-looking white onyx figurines, between 25 cm (vizier) and 12 cm (pawn) King=Muktar; Vizier=Muktar's chief assistant; White bishop: priest of Tarastia; black bishop: Priest of Vanya; Knights: Captains in the Thyatian Foreign Legion; Rooks: the Thyatian army magists; pawns: standard Thyatian foot soldiers. Traldaran side: All are ornately carved, vividly painted black onyx figurines, between 24 cm (king) and 12 cm (pawn): King: Achelos; Queen: Queen Darilla (Achelos' wife); White Bishop: priest of Achelos (Chardastes); Black Bishop: priest of Halav; Knights: Traldaran Paladins; Rooks: Traldaran druids; pawns: Traldaran peasants. In addition to the mental game power described above, the chess set has a few more powers: If the players make any sort of a wager on the outcome of the game, they must stick to their promise or suffer a double-strength geas (this effect may or may not be detected by normal methods, DM's choice). If any of the pieces ever become seperated from the board (a beautiful white marble and black onyx board with slots on the side for captured pieces or for when not in use), Anyone touching a square or a slot will automatically know the direction of the piece that belongs there. It is impossible to cheat at this game of chess (again, this may not be revealed). I made this a minor artifact using OD&D rules, but I don't know how well it would translate into AD&D: Powers... 1. The chess game can be played psychically. After a game is started (which can only be done when all pieces are present and in their place), the two players who begin the game can continue playing psychically. By focusing on the game for one round, the knowledge of where each piece should be on the board enters the players mind, and the player can mentally make his or her move. This continues to work even if the pieces are physically removed from the board, but no player may ever move out of turn. Each move costs 20 power points. 2. When someone touches the square on the board where a piece should be or its place in the holder, the knowledge of the direction (north, east, up, etc.) of the piece's actual location. This ability, a modified locate object, simply helps the user to find the pieces so a new game may start. The direction of the piece at the moment that the power is activated is learned, but this knowledge is instantaneous, and it could easily move. Plus, no distance is known, only direction, so it will usually take several activations to locate each piece. Each search for each individual piece costs 20 power points. 3. A character in physical contact with any part of the artifact may, by concentrating for one round, be healed of 7 hit points from a cure light wounds spell, but each use costs 15 power points. 4. A character who prays to Achelos or Chardastes (even just gasping the name) who is in physical contact with any part of the artifact is cured of 14 hp from a cure serious wounds, but this drains 25 power points from the artifact. The artifact can have up to 80 power points within, and it regains power at the rate of 5 points per turn, 30 points per hour. If the artifact does not have enough points when a power is activated, it simply has no effect. Penalty... Each time a power is activated, there is a chance that it will result in a penalty. When a penalty occurs, the character becomes immune to ALL healing magic (except immortal magic) for a number of days equal to the 1/5 the number of power points currently used up (for example, if a character uses the cure light wounds power twice in rapid succession, but the artifact has not yet been used that day, it has 30 pp used. If a penalty is indicated, the character is unaffected by healing magic for 1/5 of 30, or six days). The character cannot be healed by any form of mortal magic or magical item, even a wish, but natural healing is not hindered and the artifact will still work to heal the character. However, the duration of the resistance is cumulative, so characters should not rely solely on the artifact's healing powers. Check for a penalty each time a power is used. Power #1- 10% Power #2- 10% Power #3- 5% Power #4- 15% Handicap... Any character who uses a power of this artifact, or anyone in the middle of a chess game with this set, is automatically effected by a Truthtelling spell (as if cast by a level 40 cleric) every time the individual says anything regarding the artifact, even if the character is not willing to accept the spell, and there is no saving throw. This handicap lasts as long as the character is playing the game or has part of the artifact in his or her posession after using a power. Even after the game ends or the artifact leaves the character's posession, the handicap remains for 30 days. The truthtelling spell, described in GAZ2, The Emirates of Ylaruam, is a 3rd level clerical spell. Normally it can only be cast upon a willing target, but the artifact bypasses this requirement. GAZ2: "Any creature swearing an oath to perform an action or vouching for the truth of a statement will be cursed as the 3rd level clerical spell if they do not perform the action as promised or if the statement they have vouched for is false. The DM is the sole arbiter of whether an action has been performed acceptably or whether a statement is true. The DM determines the nature and timing of the curse. If appropriate, use the wording of the oath as a guide... make the curse fit the seriousness of the crime, and time the effect of the curse so that observers may recognize it as a judgement of the character's faithfulness to his oath." While this may not seem very serious, a very common mannerism among both the Thyatians and Traladarans of this region is to reply "Really?" or "Yeah?" or "Truly?" to even the most trivial statements, and saying yes after one of these questions qualifies as vouching for the truth of a statement. I haven't decided how the artifact could be destroyed, but it should be very difficult. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:42:35 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > On Wed, 21 May 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > > > Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > > > The Church of Karameikos > > > > > > The White Light: The White Light is what we came from. In the beginning > > > the world was created from the White Light. The White Light is Knowledge, > > > Purity and Illumination > > > > > > The Darkness: As the word came between the White Light and the people, > > > the world cast a shadow. People living in the darkness forgot the beauty > > > and purity of the White Light. They learned about greed and selfishness, > > > and thus, Evil came upon the world. > > > > I'd say that in the beginning it was the light: there weren't people but > > only souls. Than we got a body and, with the body, all its mortal > > temptations. The bodies casted the shadows and the darkness came. > > Cool. We could probably use both. In religions there are often several > stories which are slightly different. Even contradictions can be cool. A > true occultist knows logic is a distraction from the greater mysteries :) > Yes, you are right! And this could be one of the main differences between the doctrine of Olliver Jowett and the doctrine of Alfric Oderbry. Olliver, believing in the theory of the "soul before the body", states that we can always make amends for our sins, because once our souls saw the light and for this reason, even if now we live in the darkness, we still carry inside us the memory of the light. Alfric, who follows your theory, is much more severe about the forgiveness of our sins. What do you think? > > > The Moon: There were many Prophets in the Old world. But Evil was also > > > present. The Greatest of Prophets, Asterius saw that Darkness was evil, > > > and warned the people of the Old World. But they would not listen. As > > > Evil turned upon itself, the Old World was destryed, but the White > > > Lights spared Asterius. > > > Asterius asceneded to dwell among the Immortals, and he > > > created the Moon to reflect the White Light at night. > > > > Great idea! I think the Church of Karameikos could have a special > > religious service every night of full moon. And every follower must make > > amends for his sins before the next full moon; otherwise he'll have to > > spend a longer time in Limbo, before he can be admitted at the Crystal > > Halls of the Five Moons. What do you think? > > That sounds good. Got any ideas on what those ceremonies should involve? > I thought of giving Priests special benefits/disadvantages depending of > the phases of the Moon, but then again rules are a bit booring.. First of all, I think that Karameikan churches should have a big round window in the ceiling, through which the moon light can stream in. This is really important, because it brings the followers nearer the light. I had also a strange idea: these ceremonies should also involve lycanthropies. And again, we have a contradiction between the doctrine of Olliver Jowett and the doctrine of Alfric Oderbry: JOWETT: "The lycanthropies are evil beings, because when they see the light they turn to animals! This is because in the past their souls didn't see the light." ALFRIC: "The lycanthropies look like Traldarians: we show them the light, and they refuse it! We should kill'em all!" :) > On the Crystal Halls. This is the Church's equivalent of Heaven. The > Homeplane of Asterius. My though was a huge crystal building, (maybe > something like Superman's Fortress of Solitude) which was continually > washed in white moonlight. In this place they would be reunited with their > ancestors and dine with the immortals. (slightly inspired by the Jewish > Heaven/Gehenna) IMO it's perfect. And what about those who die as sinners? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:28:24 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Church of Thyatis (was Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) Hi! As one of the PCs has got a dominion in the hinterlands, he had to swear an oath before the emporer. In it I´ve also included the immortals, which IMC are part ot the official thyatian religion: I have taken the first two paragraphs from canon (I think), probably PWA or DotE. The third part is my doing, but as you can see, I´m not a poet. (And I had only some hours before we started to play!) Oath of Liege: - -------------- Mighty Thyatis, jewel of the world, Great is your glory, strong is your arm, lasting millenia, long lifes of men, Gen´rous your mercy, kindness your strength I hereby pledge obedience to you, mighty Thyatis, jewel of the world! Mighty Thincol, scion of strength hardened by battle and willing to rule You have the sceptre, crowned is your head, guide me, your servant, lead me ahead. I hereby pledge obedience to you, mighty Thincol, scion of strength! Mighty Gods, protectors of the jewel, guide us to victory and honor, Asterius, give us enough thought to destinquish between Merchants and Thieves, Korotiku, lend us your luck, to trick our enemies, Odin, let us be wise enough, to know when to battle, Protius, cruel as your sea, we fear your wrath, Tarastia, we will be just with the honorable but our revenge will be harsh, Thanatos, your necessary evil reminds us of the cost of failure, Thor, fierce as thunder guide our strong arm in battle, Vanya, model for all women, we conquer in your name! I hereby pledge obedience to you, Mighty Gods, protectors of the jewel! *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:28:26 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] example Hi! >This sounds exactly like the problems I used to have with my campaigns. >The PCs just get too powerful for any monsters to be able to truly >challenge them! Unless you throw something ridiculous at them, thereby >killing them, they defeat it far too quickly. That´s the point! Is it ridiculous, if there is a monster who is the better of a (say) 10th level party? If that is so, it is even more ridiculous, if the PCs reach 10th level! If the PCs suceed in getting powerful magical items, acceiving a high degree of mastering their class in about 5 - 10 years of the lives, there MUST be beings, which are far more powerful, which also have at least acceived these goals, just think of all the creatures which get much older than humankind! >They walked in, and the dragon breathed on them. [cut] >And soon they killed it. So what? They killed a dumb dragon, which didn´t anticipate an attack. With enough preparation the odds can be drasticaly changed in either way! I´ve DMed an adventure (Tallow´s Pole) from a Dungeon Magazine, which features a goblin-filled dungeon. The Goblins are ruled by an intelligent king (and I´ve allowed him to have advisors with some lesser magical abilities). I´ve sent a 12th Lvl. Dwarven Fighter and a 11th.Lvl Elven Fighter/Cleric(AD&D) in, and they just got out alive. Out of a dungeon filled with 1-1 HD-monsters. >Now, to me, it had been a bit of a strange experience since I thought it >had all been a mite to easy for them. But this combat, short as it was >in game time, took more than an hour, maybe even two. And the players >were very happy by the end of it. They had had great fun! Especially >trying to devise a way to fish all the treasure out of the mud... ;-) But then again, that´s okay! If the player´s (and the DM) have fun, why change it! >Now, having read bits of the AD&D High Level Campaigning book, I now >know that there are ways I could have made this encounter far more >interesting and far less predictable. I could have (and SHOULD have) >made the dragon's lair large enough to fly in. I could have given it >servants and minions. I could have placed magical wards on the entrance >to dispel their prepared magic. I could have done all number of things >to make things more interesting, even for such an "overpowered" party. Yes, you could have done all these things, but statistics are not everything. (Although I tend to power some of my monsters up) Often just a little change can do tremendous things. Depending on your players (and their characters) also the story behind monsters can be very important. Just think of the possibilities in the fight against the dragon, if the PCs should not or are not allowed to kill the dragon. (because they need some information from him, because they are good/lawful, because they know that he´s not evil, only got mad, and his madnness can be cured, ...) *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #88 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #89 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, May 25 1997 Volume 02 : Number 089 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:16:57 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) In a message dated 97-05-24 11:48:14 EDT, you write: << Also, I find it a bit odd that Vanya is so popular when women are generally looked down upon in the Empire. >> Well, in the real world, there is a lot of worship of Mary, the virgin mother, in Catholic countries, yet traditionally Catholicism also looks down upon women. Not to slam Catholics (I've been raised one meself), and of course the situation here in America (and perhaps elsewhere) is much improved, but the fact remains . . . And women didn't have it to great in ancient Greece, yet Athena is one of the more highly revered gods . . . No intentions to insult anybody's religion or nationality here, no flames please :) Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:21:36 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: Church of Thyatis (was Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) In a message dated 97-05-24 18:49:53 EDT, you write: << I hereby pledge obedience to you, Mighty Gods, protectors of the jewel! >> Protectors of the Jewels? Sounds more like an athletic cup than an Immortal! :) Sorry, couldn't resist this juvenile attempt at humor! :) Actually, your Thyatian oath is pretty cool, its going in my "to keep" folder on my hard drive! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:48:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara]example) > >1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing > >female characters and females playing male characters? Okay, I've never run across this IRL but I just want to say that while MUSHing, I have seen many instances of both. Men can play women just fine IMO. People are often surprised to find out I am male when I tell them, when they know me as female chars. I RP almost daily on MUSHes with people playing chars of opposite genders and I have seen only player have a problem with such an incident. So, unless any one in your group has a big complaint about it, feel free to allow it "We love your adherence to democratic principles and democratic processes" - - George Bush, 1981, to dictator Ferdinard Marcos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:20:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] Kogolor Gaz > Good work Mischa and Thorf. Only some minor things: Thanks :) > 1. Age: what is the maximum age for a Kogolor dwarf? I assume it's 400. ..is it? Well, basing this on the companion rulebook personally I used 400 as an equivalence to 100 for humans. Kogolor live past that age, but its rather rare. There is no maximum age of course, especially in a society with access to magic. > 2. Name: if they don't call their homeland Kogolor, then how do they call > it? Or better: do they feel as a unified nation at all? Well, they feel a kinship to all dwarves and will unite against trouble. They do not see themselves as a nation though. And they call the mountain region the 'Lurinac Mountains'. It doesnt bother them when others refer to them as Kogolor or to the area as such. They just find it rather silly. > 3. Kogolor clan: you wrote that it once was a powerful clan buit it has now > declined. How can this be possible considering the effect of the Spell of > Preservation? Well, Cthuluhudrew answered this already better than I could. Thanks :) > 4. Definitely more info on the clans, at least the Major ones. Well, all my answers have been starting with well :) Also, I had intended for DMs to create clans themselves. I offered the ones in the HWR as examples..note I said examples of clans or something like that, not clans of the Kogolor...if there was any specific kind of info you wanted, let me know and I'll add it in, for my next update (if I make one, which I might since Thorfinn wants to add an 'adventures' section, and your 2nd question would be added in as well..thanks for pointing out the problem). > 5. Skiis: you wrote that they are the only population of the HW to use > skiis, but IIRC the Icevale Elves use them too. Do IRC? In this case, have > they adopted the skiis from the Kogolors? D'oh. Forgot that. Will amend it if I do an update. Danke. Icevale elves invented them first. Kogolor invented them seperately at a much later date. > 6. Foreign relations: i think they should be more "interactive" with the > surrounding communities, but that's just my point of view. Well, seeing as how they barely have any contact with towns a few miles away, I see little reason why they would make contact with other cultures on a grand scale. > Ok guys, keep us updated... Will do :) "We love your adherence to democratic principles and democratic processes" - - George Bush, 1981, to dictator Ferdinard Marcos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:56:06 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Achelos Finale The end of this adventure is pretty much open. I think the way I finish it up will be like this (provided my players are still alive & cooperating): *** The party manages to dig or spellcast their way out of the collapsed cellar. *** When the party comes out of the ruined temple, they see Suleiman and a white-robed stranger standing arguing with Natasha. Natasha turns and casts a spell at the party. Suleiman attacks her, and, realizing she cannot hold her own, she uses her magic to teleport away. *** Suleiman's companion begins casting spells at the party. The PCs and Lino try to defend themselves, but they should quickly realize that they are outclassed, but before they are defeated, rapid hoofbeats should be heard approaching. *** A dashing young man with black hair and exotic, Ylari clothing, like a mythical hero straight out of "Alasiyan Nights," rides up brandishing a finely-crafted sabre. He is bleeding from a cut above his left eye, and that arm is at his side in a sling. "Nizam," he cries, "Halt!" *** The mage looks up at the oncoming horseman, eyes wide with terror. "Stay out of this, old man," he cries. "This is none of your concern!" *** "There you are wrong," replies the newcomer, swinging one-handed off his horse. "Anything that corrupst this land is my concern. I challenge you to leave this land and never return, or to fight me in honorable combat." *** The mage quickly looks at the horeman's injuries and decides that now will be the best chance he will get. "Then prepare to die, old man!" *** The two fight, the horseman with his sword, the wizard with his spells and staff. The fighter tells the PCs that this is his battle with the wizard, and asks them not to interfere. However, he tries to block any damage from either the mage or Suleiman that comes toward the party. The party should be able to contain Suleiman, although that's quite a struggle. Suleiman should soon flee once it is evident that the battle has turned. The PCs, by this time, are in such bad condition that he will be able to escape. *** The duel between the wizard and the swordsman is still raging, and neither one is in good condition. The fighter gets good swing, and the mage falls to the ground. The young "old man" backs up, allowing the mage to regain his feet. The wizard betrays this trust, pretending to be lifting himself as an excuse to flick out a dagger, dripping with a silverish liquid, which buries itself in the fighter's good arm. As the fighter staggers and drops his sword, the mage stands and prepares to cast another spell, the fighter swings as hard as he can with his right fist (even though the dagger is still buried in his arm). The punch connects with the mage's face, he staggers, and falls. *** The PCs should, and Lino will, come to check on the fighter. He hoarsely whispers, "Alas, I am slain. The poison is already cour coursing through my veins. Gasp. Please, do not let my death be in vain. Look in my sa saddllebags. Take... ...keep... ...peace, please... ...pray ....Achelos ....peace. *** *** *** A search of the saddlebags reveals the Thyatian King from the Chess Set (observant characters will notice that it looks very much like the dead man they just met), food, several potions, and a locked diary. The key is on a string around the fighter's neck. *** The diary details the life of Mahmud ibn-Amin for the past 150 years. See the background info for this story, but basically it provides the seeds for peace. *** The characters should bring the body and the Chess Set back to Riverfork Keep, they should arrange meetings between Lino and Nizar, and they should spread peace throughout the land:) *** A couple weeks after Mahmud's funeral, the party has a dream in which Mahmud, now immortal, and the immortal Chardastes thanks the characters for helping to bring peace to the region. There is still much work to be done, eradicating the evil which is still so deeply rooted in this region, but now is a time for rejoicing! Both immortals are very grateful, adn they reward the characters in whatever way is appropriate. If any character is a cleric of either the Church of Traladara or Karameikos, whichever immortal seems better-suited for the player should ask him or her to be his personal devotee, the first cleric ever of Mahmud, perhaps! *** As for future adventures, there are obviously many paths open to the characters. They can help to eliminate the refugees from the Black Eagle Barony, they can fight the remnants of Alfaric's followers, they can search for Suleiman, they can search for the missing chess pieces, or they can do anything else that presents itself . They have made some powerful allies, as well as some powerful enemies. King Stefan bestows them with some sort of medal or something. *** BTW: if anyone thinks to ask, the agent who was searching for the Magic Army at the Allia-Colba "horse fair" was simply wildly off-base. It was blind luck (and a little immortal intervention) that allowed the characters to move from the horse fair to the Chess Set;-) *** Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:36:57 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: question about Odin's servants (was [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) >An idea. >Asterius sends his Fulgar(preferring the winged baby shape) to most of his >devote clerics when they reach 10th level. Odins Fulgars are probably in >the shape of Ravens (not exactly Hawks but..) > My ancestors moved away from Norway centuries ago, so maybe one of the Scandinavians (or anyone well-read in mythology) on the list can help me. Could anyone tell me the correct (or most accepted) spelling and pronounciation of Odin's ravens and wolves? They're spelled differently in various sources. Is it that they vary in different regions, and if so, where? I'll be reading one of my poems that uses Scandinavian mythology out loud to my AP English class soon, but have no idea which is the right way to spell, let alone say Freke/Freki and Gere/Geri. Plus, it helps to know it for Mystara. Was anyone else suprised that WoTI excluded Odin's wolves? a a l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:37:10 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question At 08:42 PM 5/20/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 20 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > >> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >> >> > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> > >> > > Any other ideas for names of Entrophic planes? Im looking specifically for >> > > something hell-like for Thanatos' Homeplane. >> > >> > How about- "AAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!" >> >> Isn't that where the Castle of Aaaargh is located? > >I believe so. I think Thanatos hid the Holy Grail away there... > >"Surely he didn't write, "AAAAUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHH?" > >Of course, there are those who call Thanatos... Tim? > > Well, I was going to say Annwn if Thanatos is aka tim, but I reread about it and it turns out it's a nice place instead of a hellish one. I must have been remebering the Horned king and Lord of Death from The Chronicles of Prydain. Maybe an evil version of Castle Carbonek? Of course it would need a cave at the bottom inhabited by the hideous... Black Beast. a a l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:37:05 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: Time Travel (was: [Mystara] Prime Directive) >BTW, what don't you like about Planescape and Chronomancer (have you checked >out the Shaman supplement?)? > Well, I have nothing against Chronomancer itself, just time travel. My best friend, who also prefers old TSR stuff bought it, and it impressed him actually. I don't like Planescape because it warps the older planes (which were already warped enough), especially trying to remove religious or mythological words. And then there's that thing about having planar campaigns, even playing 1st level natives of the planes. It seems to take away from the mystery for the players, the planes are sort of supposed to be beyond the characters, you know, just as most monsters shouldn't have treasure. Sure, the DM should have the necessary info about the planes, for those rare times when characters actually go there, but IMO several boxed sets, and books detailing single planes are far more than enough. I'm glad in one way that they changed the names, because then they're no longer warped versions of earth mythology. I'd rather stick as close as possible to the original, or use it only for inspiration. a a l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:37:23 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: Church of Thyatis (was Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) At 12:28 AM 5/25/97 +0200, you wrote: > Hi! > >As one of the PCs has got a dominion in the hinterlands, he had to swear an >oath before the emporer. In it I´ve also included the immortals, which IMC >are part ot the official thyatian religion: > >I have taken the first two paragraphs from canon (I think), probably PWA or >DotE. The third part is my doing, but as you can see, I´m not a poet. (And I >had only some hours before we started to play!) > Are you sure? I didn't think I was a poet either, until I started writing poetry, which can take hours. It looks like a decent job. :) Do you mind if I write a different version or make suggestions? (that's all I have to say for now, but I didn't cut the poem) >Oath of Liege: >-------------- > >Mighty Thyatis, jewel of the world, >Great is your glory, strong is your arm, >lasting millenia, long lifes of men, >Gen´rous your mercy, kindness your strength > >I hereby pledge obedience to you, mighty Thyatis, jewel of the world! > >Mighty Thincol, scion of strength >hardened by battle and willing to rule >You have the sceptre, crowned is your head, >guide me, your servant, lead me ahead. > >I hereby pledge obedience to you, mighty Thincol, scion of strength! > >Mighty Gods, protectors of the jewel, >guide us to victory and honor, >Asterius, give us enough thought >to destinquish between Merchants and Thieves, >Korotiku, lend us your luck, >to trick our enemies, >Odin, let us be wise enough, >to know when to battle, >Protius, cruel as your sea, >we fear your wrath, >Tarastia, we will be just with the honorable >but our revenge will be harsh, >Thanatos, your necessary evil >reminds us of the cost of failure, >Thor, fierce as thunder >guide our strong arm in battle, >Vanya, model for all women, >we conquer in your name! > >I hereby pledge obedience to you, Mighty Gods, protectors of the jewel! > > >*************************************************************************** > Peter Balazs > (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) > http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs >*************************************************************************** > > > a a l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:22:29 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: [Mystara] linking Mystara pages Someone, Mystaros I think, mentioned that it would be cool if Mystara pages are linked. Coincedentally, a few days ago I thought it would be cool if there was a Mystara web ring... maybe at the lists homepage or something. I don't know, it might take a lot of work though... a a l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:32:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) In a message dated 97-05-24 11:48:14 EDT, you write: << Mystaros mentioned something about Sun Templars, probably his own creation(?), but I too, feel that Ixion should have a major role in Thyatian religion. After all he is the Supreme Power Immortal according to the HW boxed set. He seems like the natural choice as a leader of the original Thyatian Pantheon. Something like Jupiter from Roman Mythology.>> Yep, there I go again... the "Sun Templars" are not actually a unified group; IMC the major schism on the Old Thyatian Church was between the Vanyan and Solarian (or Ixion) worshippers; the parallel of RW history would be the followers of the Romano-Persian "Mithras" (Vanya) vs. the pagan Greco-Roman "Apollo" (Solarios/Ixion). The Imperials of the mainland continued to follow Vanya, while the Thyatian population of the Shadow Coast followed Solarios (these are the Amancerians of my campaign; the Italianate style principalities that make up the bulk of the lands on the Shadow Coast, from just south of Laticae to the southern plains north of Furmenglaive, again, IMC). There are several "Sun Temples"; the Narvaezan Temple of Ixion in the Savage Baronies is one such temple (IMC, the Ispans were from the IoD before migrating to the Savage Coast; I'll post a bit of their history on my page shortly). The Narvaezan Temple of Ixion is one of the Synchretic Temples that maintained a working relationship between Ixion and Vanya (as the Inquisitor, of course). In my Traldar Pantheon, Ixion, as Helios, was a combination of the RW Greek Helios and Apollo, and took over the pantheon after Khoronos/Khoronus; Ixion was adopted by the barbarian Thyatians of Davania as a major Immortal until the worship of Vanya was brought to the Thyatians by the Kerendans ca. 500 BC. <> Well, IMC she was always very popular after 500 BC, and again, IMC, she became the primary Immortal of Thyatis afer the schisms of the 6th century... << BTW: Should Ixion be known as Ixion in Thyatis?>> I have him both as Solarios and Ixion, depending on the temple in question; he is also still known as Helios among some of the Traldar groups on the IoD (IMC, Trikelios and Ekto). <> Among the Thyatians and Kerendans women are not equal, but they are not actively oppressed; among the Hattians, an utterly misogynist society, they are reviled, which I always thought odd, as their Immortal was supposed to be Vanya! I changed that, however. IMC the Hattian Immortal is known as Ares, and is an aspect of Orcus; Vanya is the Immortal of the Heldannic Knights, however, and the roles are reversed IMC between the Hattians and Heldannic Knights (in Canon Material, the Heldannic Knights are worse than the Hattians; IMC, the Hattians are the "Naziesque" types, while the Heldannic Knights are Prussians, not nice guys, but not raving lunatics like the Hattians; the schism between the two groups occured in the 930's, and led to the founding of the Heldannic Territories by the Knights). <> Definitely a good idea; she is not evil like Thanatos or Alphaks; IMC, she is the Patroness of Nosferatu and other Undead, vs. the Vampires, who are in Thanatos and Alphak's camp (for example, IMC, Count Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany started out in Traladara dedicated to Nyx as a Nosferatu, then later in Glantri was converted by ALphaks, as has happened IMC time and time again since the time of the Taymoran Empire). In Thyatis, she should have a more neutral stance, though she is a definite competitor of Ixions... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:53:18 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] Achelos info WARNING: I would not recommend reading this information until you have read through the adventure, so that you can get a feel for the suspense in the adventure. Also, much of this stuff is based on information in B1-9 in the adventure "Elwyn's Sanctuary." The true story of King Achelos II and Mahmud: The original Achelos Chardastes travelled forward in time to the year 897 A.C., met his distant descendent, the new Queen Darilla, and revealed himself to her. She agreed to "marry" him in a fake ceremony in which he became king. Most of the story of what follows is true as presented in the modern legends. Achelos did capture Mahmud, and they were both so impressed by one another that they spoke together about their hopes for the future. Achelos introduced Mahmud to his wife, and the two instantly fell madly in love. The two leaders agreed that peace was of the utmost importance, but they argued over who should be in control of the region. They agreed to a chess match to settle the dispute. Achelos was suffering from periodic bouts of insanity, a side-effect of the artifact he used to trave through time, so Mahmud agreed to wait to play until Achelos was better. Mahmud went back to Camp Riverfork and designed the Chess Set, paying for its construction out of his personal fortune. The magic was originally designed to only include the psychic playability, and Mahmud hired a cleric from his hometown to cast Truthtelling on both Mahmud and Achelos, both of whom willingly submitted. However, Chardastes (BTW-anytime I refer to Chardastes, it's Achelos acting as an immortal, not the actual character) bestowed more magic upon the magical item, making it an artifact (thus, Mahmud designed it and directed its creation, but Chardastes changed it to an artifact). Mahmud sent the Chess Set as a gift to both Achelos and Darilla, and as a means to play their game. They both swore they would receive no outside help, and they played a long, exhausting game until Mahmud finally checkmated the King. The shock of losing caused the insanity to return to Achelos, though not before he and Darilla begged their followers to halt the fighting and surrender, and Darilla knew that the only way to cure him would be to return him to his own time. She ventured alone with the madman into his "stronghold," deep down into the furthest depths of the caves under the Black Peak mountains, finally finding his artifact and sending him back to his own time. Mahmud, meanwhile, had forced his soldiers to stop attacking the Traladarans and turned instead toward the violent Hattians who attacked his soldiers and the Traladaran villages against orders. He brought some measure of peace to the region, but he was felled by the poisoned crossbow bolt. In the years since, the Hattians were organized by Ludwig vonHendriks, corrupt officials gained power, and the peaceful potential in the region was destoryed, until the PCs came. Chardastes: WotI does not fully detail Chardastes, so here is my take on him: Alignment: Neutral (good) Followers Aligment: any (no evil). Clerics must be lawful or neutral (good or neutral). Special Clerical Powers: Clerics of Chardastes can cast a cure light wounds spell once per day, although this is a special power, not a true spell. They also automatically have a healing general skill of proficiency without having to spens a slot. However, they cannot cast any healing spells reversed (ie. cause *** wounds, cause blindness, etc.). Personality: Chardastes is kind, gentle, and peaceful. He is actually ashamed of his behaviour in 900 AC--he thinks he was toointent on blindly defending his homeland, and he feels guilty for this bloodshed. However, he made that decision long ago, and he learned from it, and he tries to alleviate human suffering above and beyond any other goal now. He still favors his followers in the Cruth Lowlands, and he will try to help. However, his attention is focused on the dfficulties of Darilla and Mahmud (see below). Leptar: Alignment: Chaotic (evil) Followers alignment: chaotic (evil) Special Clerical Powers: Clerics of Leptar may use bows and arrows. History: In life, Leptar was a hideously deformed hill giant with a taste for anything that screamed. He grew very strong, torturing and killing thousands of elves and humans. He finally achieved immortality around the same time as Chardastes, and Leptar considered this an excellentway to hurt even more things. Leptar has been the personal enemy of Chardastes for centuries, because their philosphies are so diametrically opposed. Chardastes once interfered in one of Leptar's torture sessions, and they have been at each others' throats ever since. Leptar, unlike most Entropic immortals, dislikes dark, harsh colors because they upset him. All of Leptar's most faithful servants wear white, yellow, lavendar, or a combination. Leptar himself is a huge, fuzzy brute. Mahmud ibn-Amin: These are Mahmud's stats once he reaches immortalityand has a little bit of a chance to learn the ropes (when he appears in the final dream). Game Statistics: Initiate, Sphere of Energy. 1st level Immortal; Str-15, Int-16, Wis-14, Dex-17, Con-11, Cha-18. Powers: Call Other, Enhanced Reflexes, Multiple Attacks, Summon Weapon; AL--L(G). Followers' alignment: no chaotic (no evil). Clerics must be lawful. Special Clerical Powers: Clerics of Mahmud have the spell "Truthtelling" (as described in GAZ 2) in their spell choices for level 3 spells. They also receive the general skill, "Leadership" at first level without expending a skill slot. History: see below Appearance: as in life, a dashing young Alasiyani warrior, only now he's even bigger and better. Allies: Thor sponsored Mahmud. Mahmud is also a close ally of Chardastes, and he already has an enemy in Leptar. Personality: Mahmud is interested primarily in a warrior's code of honor. Unlike Thor, though, Mahmud is more thoughtful and would much rather settle problems peacefully. However, Mahmud feels that it is the duty of the strong to protect those weaker, and he generally is a nice guy. The Story of Mahmud and Darilla: Before the arrival of Achelos, Darilla was a young level 9 thief who had just taken the throne. Mahmud was already a level 16 fighter when he came to Traladara, so he had already accumulated quite a personal treasure. By the time he died, he was level 24. After sending Achelos back into time, Darilla went toward Camp Riverfork to try to be reunited with her one true love. She snuck into the camp disguised as a guard, arriving in the middle of a great peace celebration. When she finally saw Mahmud, she saw an assasin ready to shoot him. She tackled the assasin, but the arrow sped off toward a bystander and Mahmud blocked it, as is told in legends. No magic could bring Mahmud back, so Darilla stole his body in hopes of someday finding a cure. Unbeknownst to Darilla, Leptar had provided the assasin with this extremely strong poison. Darilla spent the next 50 years on a massive world-spanning quest for the cure for his condition. She found bits of information all over the world that finally pointed in the direction of the answer: homeward. Darilla returned to Traladara, where she was horrified at the plight of her people. She tried to help the Traladarans as best she could, and although she used an alias, the oldest Traldarans would say that she had the gentle touch and the kind face of Queen Darilla herself (Darilla used potions of longevity to mask her age). She investigated a giant realm of subterranean ruins beneath the hills of the Cruth Lowlands. In these ancient halls Darilla had to deal with hideous undead beastmen from before the time of Achelos I. To make things harder, the minions of Leptar were determined to defeat Darilla. She managed to single-handedly hold off both sets of enemies by using her wits, and she finally located the artifact for which she had so long been searching. She finally used the artifact to raise Mahmud, but she was severely weakened by the artifact. As she finally cured her true love, Leptar and his minions burst into the room. Mahmud and Darilla were able to kiss once, then Darilla, cast a spell from a scroll to send her true love and the artifact far, far away. Mahmud found himself with a strange artifact somewhere he was completely unfamiliar with. He made a long, dangerous journey back to Traladara, then around the world following Darilla's path. He finally returned to Karameikos, where he found the corruption that was rampant. He tried to fight it, dueling many of the most vile perpetrators of these atrocities. He also constantly searched for his beloved. Finally, underground in that same cavern, he found Darilla in a hideous torture device operated by Leptar for pleasure. He dueled the mortal identity of Leptar until he was near death, but finally vanquished his old enemy. Leptar had kept Darilla young (she was more fun to torture that way) so Mahmud drank the potions of longevity he had so that he would be the same age as Darilla. She was still weak, but Mahmud had a terrifying dream of Leptar conquering all of Western Karameikos, so he left Darilla to safely recover while he rode out to deal with the threat. He finally found the leader of the forces of Leptar, Alfaric, a white-robed magic-user in the finale of this adventure. Mahmud won the duel but ended up dying. What he did not know, though, is that he had finally reached immortality. He had completed the Quest of the Path of the Paragon when he found his scimitar, a powerful artifact of Thor. The Trial was completed when he made the psychic chess set (Chardastes' interference did not effect the results). The Testimony of Mahmud is the peaceful relationship between Traladarans and Thyatians that is somewhat begun and that is now able to grow (without Mahmud's efforts, there would be no Thyatians in Western Karameikos at all), and he has had numerous apprentices. The Task was finally completed with the defeat of Alfaric--Mahmud had already dueled plenty of high-level fighters when trying to root out the corruption in the Fury in the West. Darilla is now a 33rd level thief. She will not reveal herself to anyone for a while, for she does not want Leptar to know her whereabouts. Leptar occasionally talked to himself while torturing her, so she now knows the location of one of his most powerful artifacts, and she plans to destroy it an attempt to end the evil of Leptar. Darilla is on the path of the Epic Hero, under the patronage of Halav. She has already fulfilled her Quest, and, many years ago in her travels, she paid for and provided the materials for an extremely powerful magical arrow, "Evertrue," which has never missed its target yet. After she destroys Leptar's artifact (completing her Trial), she will reveal herself to her people, and Stefan Karameikos will probably give her an official title, possible even Archduchess. At any rate, she will become ruler of the Cruth Lowlands once again and she will train her heir to fulfill the rest of her Testimony. She still does not know what her Task will be, but she should reach immortality in around 10 years. In the mean time, Mahmud has created a mortal identity to allow him to be with her, but she is still in hiding and believes him dead (again), so it will be a while before these star-crossed lovers are finally and permanently reunited. Alfaric: This 28th level magic-user is the chief agent of Leptar on Mystara. He is cruel and sadistic, and his white robes usually make people think that he MUST be good. He has no ethics whatsoever, and shares his master's love for torture. (NOTE: if using very high-level characters, add a patriarch of Leptar in as Alfaric's accomplice) Natasha: She is as she seems in the basic description of the are, but it fails to mention that she has one of the Thyatian pawns from the Chess Set in her possession. Thus, though "her words are true," she tries to deceive the characters merciliessly. However, she is not truly evil, she only saw the potential for the greatest profit as coming from Suleiman (she had no idea that Alfaric was the mastermind). She knew some of the basic info about the Chess Set, but there is much more in Mahmud's diary. Suleiman: He is racist and evil and cruel, but he is not smart enough to plan this himself. Ever since Ludwig vonHendriks fell, Suleiman has taken orders from Alfaric, who seemed to be the best source of possible income. Lieutenant alJusif: DRAT! I knew I forgot something! Way back when the characters got to Achelos' stronghold, they should find their weapons, equipment, and papers. It all came to the fort, and the rebels raided the fort and found it. Yes, alJusif was lying through his greasy teeth; he was in the pay of Suleiman (who ever would have guessed). Lino: Lino is actually little more than he seems. He is an 18-charisma man who, although he is thoroghly good, has not yet had the experience to form the right opinions. He wants peace, but, until reading Mahmud's diary, he does not believe that peace is possible with the Fury. He refuses to beg for peace, and he is offended by anything that even sounds like this suggestion (once the characters know that he is Achelos). While the Fury soldiers believe that Achelos would never venture as far south as the Keep, Lino is really very brave, but he needed the PCs to cover his journey back to the high country. Durlasan: He is asically just a red herring designed to mislead the characters. Durlasan is a strong fighter, but he is not match for Lino in wits or charisma. The party's escort was in fact Traladarans wearing Karameikan uniforms that had just been stripped from the captured company. The abuse of Lino was just a show. Nizar: He is also basically as he seems in the initial description. He is, at heart, generous and good, but he feels his hands are tied. He cannot show weakness by giving in to Traldaran demands. Nizar will willingly admit that he will grant some concessions to the Traladarans if they ask humbly, but he will not allow them to be forced from him. He and Lino can not come to tems with one another until they have Mahmud's precedent to guide them. And Nizar will only make peace once Suleiman is gone, since Suleiman really runs the show. Chardastes would have been of more assistance in the adventure, but he was actually physically battling Leptar far away in another part of the multiverse, so he had very little time. That's all I can think of for now. I know that I left a whole bunch of stuff out, but I don't know what. Please let me know what you think of this adventure. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:59:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] MOrient Haavard Roenne Faanes pontificated: > > Just a litle idea. In China there are myths of a Golden Age. The Empire of > Xi IRC. If there is a similar myth in MChina, could there be a > Xi/Blackmoor/Thonia analogy? :) > Can you elaborate on that a little more? As I can't really recall any myth regarding to a golden age. Thanks. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:53:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] MOrient On Sun, 25 May 1997, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Haavard Roenne Faanes pontificated: > > > > Just a litle idea. In China there are myths of a Golden Age. The Empire of > > Xi IRC. If there is a similar myth in MChina, could there be a > > Xi/Blackmoor/Thonia analogy? :) > > > Can you elaborate on that a little more? As I can't really recall > any myth regarding to a golden age. Thanks. Keep in mind that I'm no expert in Chinese mythology. I did on the other hand take a course in Anthropology in which I read bits about Chinese history and religion. From what I recall there was supposed to be a dynasty before the Shang Dynasty. This one was supposedly the origin of Chinese culture. It was described as a Utopia of sorts. However most knowledge from those days were forgotten before the rise of Shang. The Xi(?) dynasty may very well have existed, but AFAIK we have too litle knowledge to determine the validity of those myths. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:10:18 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] What to do. At 14.47 23/05/97 +0200, Deathwatch wrote: >I suggest removing some items (by thieves or something) or let them be >defeated once, give them some real tough opponent (don't kill the PCs, >though). It might give a good adventure, if they try to get their items >back (which they shouldn't, unless you want strong PCs....) This reminds me of my former campaign. The campaign took place in Karameikos, but I wanted them to tour the KW (mainly because I had recently bought several Gaz :), so I had a thief stealing them an intelligent sword. They tried to get the sword back and ended up in Minrothad, where they only managed to spend a lot of money in taxes and port charges. From Minrothad they sailed west toward Sind, then they went North up to Akesoli and there my campaign ended because some the group splitted... unfortunately :( ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #89 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #90 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, May 26 1997 Volume 02 : Number 090 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:28:49 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] ideas On Sat, 24 May 1997 Nostradamus wrote: >I'd like some ideas for a new adventure. Where? What level of characters? What kind of characters? Do you know any of the players' (or characters') interests or goals? If you answer these questions I may be able to help. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:05:32 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis On Sat, 24 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Yes. From what is written there it seems that the major Immortals of >Thyatis(in alfabethical order) are: > >Asterius >Protius >Tarastia >Valerias >Vanya >(& the evil ones; Alphaks and Thanatos) > >The rest from the list are imported from other cultures/races. But don't discount them - remember that the Romans "imported" gods whenever they found another one they liked. >Mystaros mentioned something about Sun Templars, probably his own >creation(?), but I too, feel that Ixion should have a major role in >Thyatian religion. >After all he is the Supreme Power Immortal according to the HW boxed set. Yes, he should probably be worshipped in Thyatis too. >He seems like the natural choice as a leader of the original Thyatian >Pantheon. Something like Jupiter from Roman Mythology. Actually I don't agree that he should be the leader. He would be the equivalent of Phoebus Apollo in Roman and Greek religion. >Vanya is probably the most popular Immortal these days, but I think her >popularity increased greatly after the Church was fractioned into several >temples. > >BTW: Should Ixion be known as Ixion in Thyatis? I think yes, because I was always under the impression that the Immortals' names are the primary names for them in the Known World. Also, Ixion is a good Greek name anyway. >Also, I find it a bit odd that Vanya is so popular when women are >generally looked down upon in the Empire. Only as odd as in the real world - Athena was patron(ess) of the Athenian city-state in Ancient Greece, and they shut their women away inside their homes except on certain religious occasions. >Nyx should probably be included in the pantheon as well, though not >neccesarily as one of the evil ones.. Yes, I like Nyx. She's interesting. >> On the subject of Thyatian Immortals, in my campaign I have a PC who is >> a cleric of Tarastia, and I sort of decided that her clerics are very >> often military and civilian investigators/detectives. It seems to work >> well. It's also quite fun having a PC who swears revenge and justice >> for everything done against him... I had the PCs get ripped off by a >> merchant, and the cleric PC is calmly plotting revenge, waiting for the >> day they return to Thyatis City. > >Good idea. Have you worked out any more details on the Temple of Tarastia? I would say they would make good city guards, especially in positions of power in the field (like sergeants). They are probably less corruptable than the average Thyatian, and can pretty much always be trusted for a just and fair view. If they were to influence Thyatian foreign policy at all, Thyatis might become more reactionary. >I'd very much appreciate comments on what I've written above as it will >help me develope those ideas further.. I hope my comments helped. I haven't really worked much more on the Temple of Tarastia. Except I have a female cleric (a doctor) NPC called Demetria Katagara (half Thyatian, half Pearl Islander - her father was Katagara or maybe Katagaro). She is wise, pretty and friendly to PCs. :-) Last time we saw her she was attached to the century (ie regiment of 100 legionnaires) of Centurion (Captain) Antonius Maronis, stationed in the Zendrolium in Thyatis City. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:25:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Re: question about Odin's servants On Sat, 24 May 1997, David Melik wrote: > My ancestors moved away from Norway centuries ago, so maybe one of the > Scandinavians (or anyone well-read in mythology) on the list can help me. > Could anyone tell me the correct (or most accepted) spelling and > pronounciation of Odin's ravens and wolves? They're spelled differently in > various sources. Is it that they vary in different regions, and if so, > where? I'll be reading one of my poems that uses Scandinavian mythology out > loud to my AP English class soon, but have no idea which is the right way to > spell, let alone say Freke/Freki and Gere/Geri. Plus, it helps to know it > for Mystara. Was anyone else suprised that WoTI excluded Odin's wolves? The reasons for the differing spelling is that modern scandinavian languages are different from the Old Norse language. In most Norwegian books on Mythology the Wolves are called Freke and Gere. Generally i have been changed to e in many words. A norwegian e is pronounced like e in let and get. I prefer using Gere and Freke. Geri is much too Spice Girlish. Spice Wolf? Also, Old Norwegian uses cases. I dont know how much you know about gramar, but this basically means that words change according to their function in the sentence. You find cases in many other languages. Latin, German, Russian. However in modern norwegian, this system has been remomved. Thus we have to chose which forms of the words we'll use. This is why r's in many words have beem removed from Norwegian books, thought they appear in English books. r's at the end of words appear in Old norwegian in the form Nominative. (basically the active Noun). Thus we have names like: Yme=Ymer=Ymir (The first Giant) Slepner=Sleipnir (Odins Horse, I dont think anyone calls him Sleipne though... Ormr=Orm (Serpent, Wyrm, Worm) Mime=Mimer=Mimir etc..etc... Hope I didn't confuse you too much. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:47:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis On Sun, 25 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > On Sat, 24 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > >Yes. From what is written there it seems that the major Immortals of > >Thyatis(in alfabethical order) are: > > > >Asterius > >Protius > >Tarastia > >Valerias > >Vanya > >(& the evil ones; Alphaks and Thanatos) > > > >The rest from the list are imported from other cultures/races. > > But don't discount them - remember that the Romans "imported" gods > whenever they found another one they liked. I wont. The others are important, and possibly more important than some of the above. However, these +Ixion and Nyx are the original ones. Thus I feel that they should be most important in the older myths. Especially Creation Myths etc... There will ofcourse be myths about the new ones too, and these myths may be more popular. (Who wants to hear that old story about how the universe was created? right?) On Ixion > >After all he is the Supreme Power Immortal according to the HW boxed set. > Yes, he should probably be worshipped in Thyatis too. > >He seems like the natural choice as a leader of the original Thyatian > >Pantheon. Something like Jupiter from Roman Mythology. > Actually I don't agree that he should be the leader. He would be the > equivalent of Phoebus Apollo in Roman and Greek religion. hmm..Who do you think should be the leader then? Protius might be appropriate. I dont think Asterius should be leader.That would make him too important IMHO. He should be happy about getting the Church of Karameikos. Also I'm reluctant to give the female Imortals that role. Even if, as you and others have pointed, out female deities may have important roles ,even when their cultures are sexist, I believe that a male imortal should be leader..I believe there should be an equivalent of Jupiter/Zeus. This would help Strenghten the role of the Emperor. > >Vanya is probably the most popular Immortal these days, but I think her > >popularity increased greatly after the Church was fractioned into several > >temples. > >BTW: Should Ixion be known as Ixion in Thyatis? > I think yes, because I was always under the impression that the > Immortals' names are the primary names for them in the Known World. > Also, Ixion is a good Greek name anyway. Thats generally my impression too. > >Also, I find it a bit odd that Vanya is so popular when women are > >generally looked down upon in the Empire. > > Only as odd as in the real world - Athena was patron(ess) of the > Athenian city-state in Ancient Greece, and they shut their women away > inside their homes except on certain religious occasions. good point. Athena wasn't the leader though. Even if she probably was much more popular than Zeus. > >Nyx should probably be included in the pantheon as well, though not > >neccesarily as one of the evil ones.. > > Yes, I like Nyx. She's interesting. > >Good idea. Have you worked out any more details on the Temple of Tarastia? > > I would say they would make good city guards, especially in positions of > power in the field (like sergeants). They are probably less corruptable > than the average Thyatian, and can pretty much always be trusted for a > just and fair view. If they were to influence Thyatian foreign policy > at all, Thyatis might become more reactionary. > > >I'd very much appreciate comments on what I've written above as it will > >help me develope those ideas further.. > > I hope my comments helped. I haven't really worked much more on the > Temple of Tarastia. Except I have a female cleric (a doctor) NPC called > Demetria Katagara (half Thyatian, half Pearl Islander - her father was > Katagara or maybe Katagaro). She is wise, pretty and friendly to PCs. > :-) Last time we saw her she was attached to the century (ie regiment > of 100 legionnaires) of Centurion (Captain) Antonius Maronis, stationed > in the Zendrolium in Thyatis City. Yep. thanks. Btw. This might take a while, and I've got a lot of work to do next week, but I'll do my best. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:41:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Gianni Bianconcini Subject: [Mystara] the five shires hi ! i'm looking for data about the five shires. is it possible to find something useful on the net ? if so, where ? many thanks - ------------------------------------------- Gianni Bianconcini E-mail: bel0919@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:16:27 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis At 01.05 25/05/97 +0100, Thorfinn wrote: >>Mystaros mentioned something about Sun Templars, probably his own >>creation(?), but I too, feel that Ixion should have a major role in >>Thyatian religion. >>After all he is the Supreme Power Immortal according to the HW boxed set. > >Yes, he should probably be worshipped in Thyatis too. I see your point and agree with you, but won't this cause problems with canon, expecially with WotI? Moreover Ixion (i.e. the Sun) is already worshipped in many countries both in the surface world and HW: Alphatia & colonies, Ethengar, Sind, Darokin, somewhere in the westermost areas of the SC, Milenia, among Oltecs... I know he represents the Sun, but I don't think he needs yet more followers. Just my opinion. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:22:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: question about Odin's servants (was [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) forgot to mention Hugin and Munin. Any other way to spell the names of Odins ravens? the u is pronounced as the 'oo' in 'food.' The i is pronounced an in Ronin. couldn't think of better example offhand. anything else? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:13:31 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Sat, 24 May 1997, David Melik wrote: > Well, I was going to say Annwn if Thanatos is aka tim, but I reread about it > and it turns out it's a nice place instead of a hellish one. I must have > been remebering the Horned king and Lord of Death from The Chronicles of > Prydain. Maybe an evil version of Castle Carbonek? Of course it would need > a cave at the bottom inhabited by the hideous... Black Beast. Con't forget the Vorpal Bunny that guards it's front gates. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:15:21 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] linking Mystara pages On Sat, 24 May 1997, David Melik wrote: > Someone, Mystaros I think, mentioned that it would be cool if Mystara pages > are linked. Coincedentally, a few days ago I thought it would be cool if > there was a Mystara web ring... maybe at the lists homepage or something. I > don't know, it might take a lot of work though... The Amber pages (for the Amber DRPG) do something similar. They have a connection called the "Golden Circle" (from the Amber novels), that ties any pages that wish to be connected together. I'm not sure how it's done, nor how much work it takes, but I'm sure that if someone wanted to contact the people in charge of it, they could tell you. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:25:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis On Sun, 25 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > hmm..Who do you think should be the leader then? Protius might be > appropriate. I dont think Asterius should be leader.That would make him > too important IMHO. He should be happy about getting the Church of > Karameikos. Also I'm reluctant to give the female Imortals that role. Even > if, as you and others have pointed, out female deities may have important > roles ,even when their cultures are sexist, I believe that a male imortal > should be leader..I believe there should be an equivalent of > Jupiter/Zeus. This would help Strenghten the role of the Emperor. The only equivalent I can think of would be Khoronus (Cronos), who in Greek mythology is the father of the gods, slain by Zeus. Perhaps in Thyatis Cronos is the leader of the pantheon (though, yes, I realize he wasn't mentioned in any previous product as being a member of the Thyatian pantheon). The only other thing I can think of would be to allocate the Zeus role to Odin; they have many parallels in RW mythology, and it might not be too much of a stretch, particularly as Odin is revered in Thyatis. Bear in mind also that he is revered among Hinterlanders, from whom the Thyatians are descended. > > Only as odd as in the real world - Athena was patron(ess) of the > > Athenian city-state in Ancient Greece, and they shut their women away > > inside their homes except on certain religious occasions. > > good point. Athena wasn't the leader though. Even if she probably was much > more popular than Zeus. Heck, for that matter, towards the end, Dionysus/Bacchus was arguably the most popular figure in Greek mythology. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:19:47 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MOrient On Sun, 25 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > The Xi(?) dynasty may very well have existed, but AFAIK we have too litle > knowledge to determine the validity of those myths. Are you referring to XiXia? It is a (IIRC) major city along the silk road. It was among the first conquered by the Mongols under Genghis Khan (following, IIRC, Samarkand). It is an actual place. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] MOrient Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: > > > The Xi(?) dynasty may very well have existed, but AFAIK we have too litle > > knowledge to determine the validity of those myths. > > Are you referring to XiXia? It is a (IIRC) major city along the silk > road. It was among the first conquered by the Mongols under Genghis Khan > (following, IIRC, Samarkand). It is an actual place. > I think I know what he is talking about now (I have alot of problem with translating English back to Chinese sometime). Xi is an actual dynasty. IIRC, it is the first dynasty with an official name. But being something 3, 4 thousand years ago, its history have some mythical elements in there. A bit like myth of King Arthor or War of Troy ... based on facts, but storytellers over the centuries had some fun :) John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:50:37 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] More Kogolor notes Reading again the file i spotted some other minor problems: 1. If the Kogolor don't have a King, who is then Bifric III (PWA)? 2. Plural of Klaurmann is Klaurmaenner 3. Religion issue: it is not believable that Kagyar faith has the same importance as the church of Frey/Freya (as it is derived from what u wrote). IMO Kagyar should have NO MORE followers among the Kogolors while Frey and Freya should have much more importance in Kogolors' faith and everyday life (they were the first who gave the dwarves help and clerical spells, after all, according to HW) 4. Artifact: They have a Forge of Power? It's not likely, since it's Kagyar's relic. And this brings out another interesting issue: the origin of the Forge of Power has never been clearly detailed. When was it created and why? Any ideas? Also, to answer Cthul's letter: >> 5. Skiis: you wrote that they are the only population of the HW to use >> skiis, but IIRC the Icevale Elves use them too. Do IRC? In this case, have >> they adopted the skiis from the Kogolors? >I don't recall for sure either, but my recollection and yours seem to go >together. :) >It could be that the Icevale elves have sleds instead... I'll have to check. The Icevale have sleds AND skiis, i checked it out. So who's the real inventor of the skiis? DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:16:54 -0400 From: Hervé MUSSEAU Subject: [Mystara] Time travel For those of you interested in time travel in Mystara, I have adapted the Chronomancer supplement to our favorite world. I guess I posted it to the list a few months ago, so you can dug it out from the digests, or check it out on my homepage at : hhtp://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh Herve Musseau ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:44:50 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos Church wanted!! At 18.17 24/05/97 +0200, you wrote: >DM wrote: >> Also, adding to the thread, i think D&D already has its angels: the Archons, >> which are the Ultimate Lawful (of course, this doesn't mean they're good, >> but only that they despise chaos... and this arises an interesting question: >> how could an Immortal from Energy have created Archons, Champions of Law, if >> Energy is the foremost chaotic Sphere of them all after Entropy?) >I suppose Lawful Energy Immortals could create them. But still you have a >point. So, the Archons would be the Champions of Law, and in the name of Law could also commit any kind of injustices, but the church would advocate the famous "divine justice" to explain these acts (the archons as the Inquisitors and the Heldannic Knights?) >> As for demons, why not to call them Daimons (more philosophycally) or even >> Draculi, which is a slavic term for demon (and the karameikos church could >> have borrowed it from the Traladaran language)? > >What does Daimons mean? A "daimon" is essentially a figure of the greek philosophy (i think it's Plato's work, but i'm not 100% sure). Daimon doesn't mean "demon", but it's part of our soul: more properly, the greeks thought it was our soul, the emotional part of our self, the one responsible for feelings and animal instincts. So, if the Logic was what guided the pure and selfconsciuos man, the daimon was what caused men to fail to reach the light of Logic. >As for Draculi, I think maybe thats better to use as the Traldaran name >for demons. I think the Traldaran and Karameikan Chuches should be kept >as different as possible. > >Haavard R. Faanes Oh, well, as u like it. I agree, but this wouldn't be a major thing: just borrowing a name to make traladarans understan it better. Note that the daimon is a pure philosophical thing, quite the contrary of the Draculi, which is real (at least for Traladarans) and much more menacing. It all depends on how you like to portray the CoK. Maybe it could have daimons, whereas the Church of traladara would have Draculi, and therefore a sacred ritual to banish them (much like the Boldavian Procession. I think there should be something similar in Traladara, since the Boldavians are traladaran descendants) DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:54:26 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? At 01.32 25/05/97 -0400, mystaros wrote: > >Nyx is not evil like Thanatos or Alphaks; IMC, she is >the Patroness of Nosferatu and other Undead, vs. the Vampires, who are in >Thanatos and Alphak's camp (for example, IMC, Count Morphail >Gorevitch-Woszlany started out in Traladara dedicated to Nyx as a Nosferatu, >then later in Glantri was converted by ALphaks, as has happened IMC time and >time again since the time of the Taymoran Empire). >Mystaros > I think u got this one wrong. Morphail was a human when he was in Glantri, and he was made a Nosferatu by Alphaks when the immortal thanked him for his services (he asked to be an immortal so that he would have served Alphaks better and for the rest of his life, and Alphaks made him immortal... only not the kind of immortal Morphail had thought of...) So, he has never been a follower of Nyx "in his early days as a nosferatu in Traladara", but this doesn't mean he is one now, maybe he's trying to obtain Nyx' favour to plot against Alphaks and get rid of his yoke... DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:44:16 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) On Sat, 24 May 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > BTW: Should Ixion be known as Ixion in Thyatis? > I think so, since Ixion is a Greco-Roman name. > Also, I find it a bit odd that Vanya is so popular when women are > generally looked down upon in the Empire. > Women are looked down upon only by Ochaleans and Hattians. Elsewhere they are almost equal. And anyway, Vanya represents battle and conquest - things most dear to Thyatians. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:40:15 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) > Yes. From what is written there it seems that the major Immortals of > Thyatis(in alfabethical order) are: > > Asterius > Protius > Tarastia > Valerias > Vanya > (& the evil ones; Alphaks and Thanatos) > > The rest from the list are imported from other cultures/races. > There seems to be something unclear about Tarastia. Earlier sources (Dawn of the Emperors) say that she is Empress Valentia the Justicar who achieved immortality. But WotI says that she was an ancient Jennite woman (and Jennites still worship her). So which one is it? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:46:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] MOrient On Mon, 26 May 1997, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: > > > > > The Xi(?) dynasty may very well have existed, but AFAIK we have too litle > > > knowledge to determine the validity of those myths. > > > > Are you referring to XiXia? It is a (IIRC) major city along the silk > > road. It was among the first conquered by the Mongols under Genghis Khan > > (following, IIRC, Samarkand). It is an actual place. > > > I think I know what he is talking about now (I have alot of > problem with translating English back to Chinese sometime). Xi > is an actual dynasty. IIRC, it is the first dynasty with an > official name. But being something 3, 4 thousand years ago, its > history have some mythical elements in there. A bit like myth > of King Arthor or War of Troy ... based on facts, but storytellers > over the centuries had some fun :) My only source on this matter is a book called 'Kulturforstaaelse' (Cultural Understanding) by Jan Brogger, a norwegian professor in Antropology and Psychology. The book was unclear on the matter of whether this dynasty(Sorry about referring to it as an Empire earlier) actually had existed. None of the Authors sources seemed to be clear on the matter so he said that would be a matter for historians, not anthopologists. You may have other sources than he had. Haavard - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:42:32 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? > I think u got this one wrong. Morphail was a human when he was in Glantri, > and he was made a Nosferatu by Alphaks when the immortal thanked him for his > services (he asked to be an immortal so that he would have served Alphaks > better and for the rest of his life, and Alphaks made him immortal... only > not the kind of immortal Morphail had thought of...) So, he has never been a > follower of Nyx "in his early days as a nosferatu in Traladara", but this > doesn't mean he is one now, maybe he's trying to obtain Nyx' favour to plot > against Alphaks and get rid of his yoke... > > DM The Glantri boxed set implies that Morphail likes his current state. At any time he could choose to try to attain lichdom, but he chooses not to. I don't understand why he would try to "get rid of his yoke." Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:01:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) On Mon, 26 May 1997, Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: > > Yes. From what is written there it seems that the major Immortals of > > Thyatis(in alfabethical order) are: > > > > Asterius > > Protius > > Tarastia > > Valerias > > Vanya > > (& the evil ones; Alphaks and Thanatos) > > > > The rest from the list are imported from other cultures/races. > > > There seems to be something unclear about Tarastia. Earlier sources (Dawn > of the Emperors) say that she is Empress Valentia the Justicar who > achieved immortality. But WotI says that she was an ancient Jennite woman > (and Jennites still worship her). So which one is it? I believe this was dicussed earlier. Someone bointed out that she was originally a Jennite woman, but during her quest for immortality she was reborn as Empress Valentia.... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:59:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos Church wanted!! On Mon, 26 May 1997, DM wrote: > At 18.17 24/05/97 +0200, you wrote: > >DM wrote: > >> Also, adding to the thread, i think D&D already has its angels: the Archons, > >> which are the Ultimate Lawful (of course, this doesn't mean they're good, > >> but only that they despise chaos... and this arises an interesting question: > >> how could an Immortal from Energy have created Archons, Champions of Law, if > >> Energy is the foremost chaotic Sphere of them all after Entropy?) > > >I suppose Lawful Energy Immortals could create them. But still you have a > >point. > > So, the Archons would be the Champions of Law, and in the name of Law could > also commit any kind of injustices, but the church would advocate the famous > "divine justice" to explain these acts (the archons as the Inquisitors and > the Heldannic Knights?) Hmmm. I dont like the sound of that. I think the Archons should have a greater understanding of right and wrong since they have reached a higher spiritual level than us. And they should be too honest to even think of other motives than serving truth. How important is really alignment to the spheres anyway? The Spheres seem to be some kind of philosophy in addition to being a source of power for the immortals. However that philosphy seems to have room for various interpretations, thus allowing various alignments within the sphere.. > >What does Daimons mean? > > A "daimon" is essentially a figure of the greek philosophy (i think it's > Plato's work, but i'm not 100% sure). Daimon doesn't mean "demon", but it's > part of our soul: more properly, the greeks thought it was our soul, the > emotional part of our self, the one responsible for feelings and animal > instincts. So, if the Logic was what guided the pure and selfconsciuos man, > the daimon was what caused men to fail to reach the light of Logic. Sounds like Aristotle to me. He was the one who divided the soul into three categories. Anyway, this sounds quite good. I like the word Demon too though. Even if it isn't politically correct.. > Note that the daimon is a pure philosophical thing, quite the contrary of > the Draculi, which is real (at least for Traladarans) and much more > menacing. It all depends on how you like to portray the CoK. Maybe it could > have daimons, whereas the Church of traladara would have Draculi, and > therefore a sacred ritual to banish them (much like the Boldavian > Procession. I think there should be something similar in Traladara, since > the Boldavians are traladaran descendants) Interesting. What exactly is the Procession? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:12:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question On Sat, 17 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > (save IM3; the 24 Planes of Mazikeen are not true Planes in my campaign). No What have you done with these? I think some of them are pretty cool, but it is strange that one immortal should be in control of that many planes...Also I notice that you've used some of those names on other planes. i.e. Arcadia > Cthonia (Entropy; Homeplane of Thanatos) sounds like a mix of Chtulhu and Thonia. Was that your intention? > Niflheim (Entropy; Homeplane of Hel) Actually it might be more appropriate if Helheim is the homeplane of Hel while Niflheim is the Homeplane of Norse Frost Giants. Gaz7 seems to support this..Both are pretty cold places though... > Rainbow, The (Energy; Corridor in Space) The Mythological name for the Rainbow Bridge is Bifrost... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:35:45 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: [Mystara] Location of Haven Reading again my old copy of B3: Palace of the Silver Princess, I have found some interesting questions: 1- Where is Haven? The map of Gaz1 seems to locate it somewhere north of The Island of Lost Dreams (sorry, I don't know the english name), but that area is also described in the module B10: Night's Dark Terror, where Haven is nowhere to be found! Also in K:KoA there aren't info about Haven. For this reason I should locate it elsewhere. But where? We know that it is surrounded by mountains and that in Haven live elves, dwarfs, halfling and humans. Goblins, ogres and hobgoblins live near, too. 2- Who are the "protectors"? They are three magical beings. They look like elves, but they have green shining skins. They fight against evil and they struggle for the downfall of Arik. Could they be King Halav, Petra and Z.? But why should they use the forms of elves? 3- Who is Ellis the Strong and where does he come from? Has anyone developed his character? Where does the Knights of White Dragons come form? Probably not from Karameikos. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:07:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? In a message dated 97-05-26 05:05:25 EDT, you write: << >Nyx is not evil like Thanatos or Alphaks; IMC, she is >the Patroness of Nosferatu and other Undead, vs. the Vampires, who are in >Thanatos and Alphak's camp (for example, IMC, Count Morphail >Gorevitch-Woszlany started out in Traladara dedicated to Nyx as a Nosferatu, >then later in Glantri was converted by ALphaks, as has happened IMC time and >time again since the time of the Taymoran Empire). >Mystaros > I think u got this one wrong. Morphail was a human when he was in Glantri, and he was made a Nosferatu by Alphaks when the immortal thanked him for his services (he asked to be an immortal so that he would have served Alphaks better and for the rest of his life, and Alphaks made him immortal... only not the kind of immortal Morphail had thought of...) So, he has never been a follower of Nyx "in his early days as a nosferatu in Traladara", but this doesn't mean he is one now, maybe he's trying to obtain Nyx' favour to plot against Alphaks and get rid of his yoke... DM >> IMC Alert!!! Well, please note that I did say "IMC", meaning In MY Campaign... one thing about the Glantrian timeline that never fit in was the fact that he was converted in 720 AC, yet settlers other than Flaems did not arrive from elswhere until 730 AC. I fit Morphail into a whole other series of tales *IMC* that developed the northern reaches of the Traladaran territories; there he was known as the Black Count of Rymskigrad (the original Rymskigrad IMC). He attempted to conquer the northern towns of Traladara in the early 700's AC, and turned to Nyx in order to gain more power (Traladara having been a major center of the ancient Taymoran Empire (mentioned only in PC3, developed by me into a realm ruled by Undead)). He was defeated, and in the process the entire northern region of Traladara became depopulated. The survivors of those wars fled to Glantri with migrating Thyatians in 730 AC, and went on to found Boldavia, which later came under the Counts control yet again, and eventually the Count, later Prince, was converted by Alphaks into a Vampire, rather than Nosferatu... some of the details about the relationship *IMC* between the Immortals Nyx and Thanatos and the differences between Nosferatu and Vampires will be seen on my HomePage, once I get the info about Taymor up on the net... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Location of Haven In a message dated 97-05-26 17:54:31 EDT, you write: << 1- Where is Haven? The map of Gaz1 seems to locate it somewhere north of The Island of Lost Dreams (sorry, I don't know the english name), but that area is also described in the module B10: Night's Dark Terror, where Haven is nowhere to be found! Also in K:KoA there aren't info about Haven. For this reason I should locate it elsewhere. But where? We know that it is surrounded by mountains and that in Haven live elves, dwarfs, halfling and humans. Goblins, ogres and hobgoblins live near, too. >> I myself felt that Haven didn't fit completely into the area so described, so I fudged a little IMC... I made it into a reagion that was partially on the Prime Plane and partially in Faerie (the Spirit Plane IMC). I actually worked up a full almanac entry for it, which I will post here soon... << 2- Who are the "protectors"? They are three magical beings. They look like elves, but they have green shining skins. They fight against evil and they struggle for the downfall of Arik. Could they be King Halav, Petra and Z.? But why should they use the forms of elves? >> In the original, the Protectors were Elven-type creatures; in the B1-9 version, Thendara was a singular Protector who was an Immortal. I again fudged, and made the Protectors a race of Sidhe who live in the land of Faerie and watch over Haven; Thendara is an allied Immortal-level Spirit. The reason they are concerned with Arik is that due to the relation betwen the Spirit Plane, Prime Plane and Haven (in-between, so to speak), Arik can more easily manipulate things from the Prison Dimension and the Dimension of Nightmares (check out my Arik post, a couple weeks ago)... <<3- Who is Ellis the Strong and where does he come from? Has anyone developed his character? Where does the Knights of White Dragons come form? Probably not from Karameikos. >> Ellis the Strong is/was one of the Knights of the White Drakes (Order of the White Drake, OWD), an organization that was disbanded in AC 960 (DoE pg 7; ONLY reference throughout). IMC I made them into an old Hattian Order of Knighthood based in the northern Isle of Dawn (among the Daumancer, IMC another race from that region allied with the Hatttians); they cooperated with the Alphatians in the War of 959 AC, earming the emnity of the Thyatians, and thus were executed or absorbed after the war was over... Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #90 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #91 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, May 27 1997 Volume 02 : Number 091 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:09:01 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Location of Haven In a message dated 97-05-26 17:54:31 EDT, Diego writes: << Reading again my old copy of B3: Palace of the Silver Princess, I have found some interesting questions: 1- Where is Haven? >> IMC, I do place Haven just north of the Lake of Lost Dreams. Works well, IMHO. I feel that it wasn't described in the Karameikos Gazetter or the Karameikos boxed set because Haven is a "secret" of the Immortals :) << 2- Who are the "protectors"? >> I'll have to go back and reread my modules, 'cause I don't remember any green-skinned protectors. I do remember "The Protector" and a later reference (can't remember what product) that the Immortal Thendara was "The Protector" of Haven. Thendara is from the original Immortals boxed set (with a "update" blurb in the Hollow World boxed set ?). << 3- Who is Ellis the Strong and where does he come from? >> The Knights of the White Drakes were described as a related group to Knights of Retebius (Dawn of the Emperors), who all flew white dragons. A highly good and lawful order, nevertheless they were outlawed and hunted down by the powers that be (in just Retebius or in all of Thyatia . . . don't know). I don't think there is much more info than this, but these hints (and perhaps more) can be found in the "Dawn of the Emperors" boxed set. Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:36:26 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number > > As min ksehnai o mikros oti tha prepei ego na pliroso gia to internet > tou. > -- > Memento mori > paprika pu kenga? - -- Sebastian Quiles ================ Universidad de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:24:17 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Location of Haven On Sun, 25 May 1997 23:35:45 +0200 Diego Calugi writes: >Reading again my old copy of B3: Palace of the Silver Princess, I have >found some interesting questions: > >3- Who is Ellis the Strong and where does he come from? >Has anyone developed his character? Where does the Knights of White >Dragons come form? Probably not from Karameikos. > >-Diego > This is a lawful order from Thyatis, I believe. They were purged by Thincol when he gained the throne, and went underground in the Retebius Air Fleet. Aren't they also called the "Knights of the White Drake"? Nicholas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:50:14 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] What to do. > > At 00:14 23-05-97 +0300, you wrote: > >I am a new DM.I would like some opinions for the following things: > >We've got here a:Magic user with an AC of 1 > > Elf with an AC of -2 > > Fighter with an AC of -3 > > another Fighter with an AC of -3 > > one more Fighter with an AC of -4 > >So I would like to know:Is it too much?If so what should I do? > >I'd like to add that all the above characters are at Level 3 and they > >also have many magical items such as swords not less with a +3 bonus. > > Well...they do have a huge number of magical items. :) > I suggest removing some items (by thieves or something) or let them be > defeated once, give them some real tough opponent (don't kill the PCs, > though). It might give a good adventure, if they try to get their items > back (which they shouldn't, unless you want strong PCs....) > > I sudgest to do too.... One good way it's putting a GREAT / DAEMON / SORCERER / IMMORTAL / BIG / WARRIOR / ETC moster (like a HalflinG) and the unique way to kill him it's puting a magic creme in the weapon and hit him one time with it... (and without telling him) the result of the hit, it's both, the monster and the sword suddenly vanishes in the air - -- Sebastian Quiles ================ Universidad de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 03:48:00 +0300 From: George Milonas Subject: Re: [Mystara] ideas Nostradamus wrote: > > I'd like some ideas for a new adventure. I can give you some - -- Memento mori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:10:59 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis On Sun, 25 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >hmm..Who do you think should be the leader then? Protius might be >appropriate. I dont think Asterius should be leader.That would make him >too important IMHO. He should be happy about getting the Church of >Karameikos. Also I'm reluctant to give the female Imortals that role. Even >if, as you and others have pointed, out female deities may have important >roles ,even when their cultures are sexist, I believe that a male imortal >should be leader..I believe there should be an equivalent of >Jupiter/Zeus. This would help Strenghten the role of the Emperor. Protius would do, but I'm really not sure. On the other hand I don't see why we should stick rigidly to the real world structure - so Protius, Ixion, Asterius - any would do. >> >Also, I find it a bit odd that Vanya is so popular when women are >> >generally looked down upon in the Empire. >> >> Only as odd as in the real world - Athena was patron(ess) of the >> Athenian city-state in Ancient Greece, and they shut their women away >> inside their homes except on certain religious occasions. > >good point. Athena wasn't the leader though. Even if she probably was much >more popular than Zeus. Hmm. She was the patron on Athens, which means she was the "leader" of their religion. The problem is how to define leader - in a "who is most important/most worshipped" way or "who leads the gods in their land" way. The first is real, the second is just naive mortal perception. >> :-) Last time we saw her she was attached to the century (ie regiment >> of 100 legionnaires) of Centurion (Captain) Antonius Maronis, stationed >> in the Zendrolium in Thyatis City. > >Yep. thanks. Btw. This might take a while, and I've got a lot of work to >do next week, but I'll do my best. Okay. Oh, I forgot to mention to be careful if you ever use Maronis - my PCs kept on calling him "Moron" for the whole session. :-( Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:03:19 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) On Mon, 26 May 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> There seems to be something unclear about Tarastia. Earlier sources (Dawn >> of the Emperors) say that she is Empress Valentia the Justicar who >> achieved immortality. But WotI says that she was an ancient Jennite woman >> (and Jennites still worship her). So which one is it? > >I believe this was dicussed earlier. Someone bointed out that she was >originally a Jennite woman, but during her quest for immortality she was >reborn as Empress Valentia.... Either that or Valentia was a mortal form of Tarastia... Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:14:05 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis On Sun, 25 May 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >I see your point and agree with you, but won't this cause problems with >canon, expecially with WotI? >Moreover Ixion (i.e. the Sun) is already worshipped in many countries both >in the surface world and HW: Alphatia & colonies, Ethengar, Sind, Darokin, >somewhere in the westermost areas of the SC, Milenia, among Oltecs... >I know he represents the Sun, but I don't think he needs yet more followers. >Just my opinion. I agree with Fabrizio, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be worshipped at all in Thyatis. If he is worshipped in the same role as Apollo (music, poetry, arts and youth) then he won't have much pull as an Immortal of war anyway. Also since he is not the main patron Immortal he won't have half as much power in Thyatis. And remember that Valerias is worshipped in Thyatis, and yet she was on the Alphatian side during the war. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:17:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis On Sun, 25 May 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >The only equivalent I can think of would be Khoronus (Cronos), who in >Greek mythology is the father of the gods, slain by Zeus. Perhaps in >Thyatis Cronos is the leader of the pantheon (though, yes, I realize he >wasn't mentioned in any previous product as being a member of the >Thyatian pantheon). > >The only other thing I can think of would be to allocate the Zeus role to >Odin; they have many parallels in RW mythology, and it might not be too >much of a stretch, particularly as Odin is revered in Thyatis. Bear in >mind also that he is revered among Hinterlanders, from whom the Thyatians >are descended. Why all this clinging to real world stuff? We already have a lot of real world things in Mystara, but I always thought it was the twist on the cultures that made them part of the world and so interesting. We don't want to simply emulate the real world. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:02:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Kogolor notes On Mon, 26 May 1997 DM wrote: >Reading again the file i spotted some other minor problems: I hope you don't mind Mischa if I field a few of these. >1. If the Kogolor don't have a King, who is then Bifric III (PWA)? We only noticed him, along with some other little PWA discrepancies, after Mischa had completed his work. He decided not to try and make it fit since some of the ideas in the PWA were radically different from Mischa's ideas, instead leaving it to individual DMs to decide how to reconcile these two different views. I support him in this. But if you do want to fit all of the canon stuff with Mischa's HWR, feel free. In my opinion it wouldn't be so hard because although some stuff conflicts, it doesn't badly conflict. I am considering doing an adaptation with the PWA info fitted in (if it's okay with you, Mischa!). >2. Plural of Klaurmann is Klaurmaenner Not really important since the D&D language doesn't have to mirror the real world language exactly, but it's a minor change for DMs to make. >3. Religion issue: it is not believable that Kagyar faith has the same >importance as the church of Frey/Freya (as it is derived from what u wrote). >IMO Kagyar should have NO MORE followers among the Kogolors while Frey and >Freya should have much more importance in Kogolors' faith and everyday life >(they were the first who gave the dwarves help and clerical spells, after >all, according to HW) I got the impression from the Religion section that the Immortals structure went like this: 1. Garal Glitterlode 2. Fredar and Fredara 3. Kagyar Kagyar is below Fredar and Fredara, since he abandoned the Kogolor long ago. Fredar and Fredara are still quite important among the Kogolor, almost as important as Garal Glitterlode. >4. Artifact: They have a Forge of Power? It's not likely, since it's >Kagyar's relic. >And this brings out another interesting issue: the origin of the Forge of >Power has never been clearly detailed. When was it created and why? Any ideas? I wondered about this too, but demihuman relics seem to have a strange history. Do you know of a reference anywhere to the Forge originating with Kagyar? I haven't seen any. (Not that that means anything - I'm just curious.) If you're right though, the Kogolor would need a new relic. Any suggestions? Bear in mind that the Kogolor are not as craft-orientated as the Rockhome dwarves, so a Forge is not really appropriate. >Also, to answer Cthul's letter: >>> 5. Skiis: you wrote that they are the only population of the HW to use >>> skiis, but IIRC the Icevale Elves use them too. Do IRC? In this case, have >>> they adopted the skiis from the Kogolors? > >>I don't recall for sure either, but my recollection and yours seem to go >>together. :) >>It could be that the Icevale elves have sleds instead... I'll have to check. > >The Icevale have sleds AND skiis, i checked it out. So who's the real >inventor of the skiis? I think the way Mischa explained it was that they both developed skis independent of each other. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 04:57:02 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Player Problems Hi, I have a problem with one of my players. I have tried to work out how to get round it, but I can't work it out. First of all, he is my cousin, so it's not as simple as saying "you can't play if you won't cooperate". Second, he is quite hard to speak to about this sort of thing without him walking off in a huff. So with that in mind: (1) He always says he wants to play an evil character. Example: my first campaign we played he got it into his head that he wanted to be a Nagpa. I tried to tell him that it wouldn't fit, that he wouldn't enjoy it, that it would spoil the other players' game, and that Nagpa aren't very good. He wouldn't listen. To this day he moans about it, though he does acknowledge now that they really aren't very good. When we were going to play Middle-earth, he of course wanted to be a Nazgul. It's not as if he doesn't know how completely and utterly impossible that would be... but no, he insisted that either he would be a Nazgul or an Orc. He wouldn't accept anything else, eventually resulting in our not playing the game at all and my having wasted (well, not entirely since I'm interested anyway) about 50 pounds on it. Finally in our latest campaign he is from Thyatis, and he saw the Storm Soldiers and started to insist that he wanted to be one of them. Thankfully I managed to persuade him to be a Paladin (or rather Fighter) instead, and then he changed his mind and decided to secretly be a cleric of Tarastia, which is working out okay. Anyway, that isn't even the problem I was initially going to talk about, but do any of you on the list have problems with this too? The only way I could persuade him not to be a Storm Soldier is to say I would let him be one in a future campaign (currently dubbed "The Evil Campaign", though it is really neutral - evil only from a certain point of view). But the trouble is that he already has a far more interesting character lined up for it... (2) He refuses point blank (worse, when I asked him he sent me back an e-mail swearing at me very nastily) to work out any details of his character, to read anything whatsoever on his culture, to do anything for his background, etc.. Currently I know lot about the two other characters in the game, but nothing about him - including nothing about his interests for adventures. And yet he complains when I run adventures which he doesn't like, where he was railroaded into it. I try to tell him that if he doesn't tell me what he wants there is no way for me to work it out, but he doesn't listen. He also doesn't seem to understand the work I put into these adventures, in which he just sits at the table reading a magazine and barely participating. So, I am left in a situation where I have no idea what he wants to do adventure-wise, and whatever I decide to do next is more than likely to be "not to his liking". I will spend a few evenings on it only to be told that it's no good. All the other characters have goals, no matter how vague, for me to work something from. Finally since he knows nothing of his culture (Thyatis) and pretty much nothing of the game world, I have little means of interesting him in complex (or even simple) plots, politics and such. His excuse is that he "doesn't like reading D&D stuff". (He prefers women's magazines which he doesn't read but just looks at the pictures.) Perhaps the worst part of it is that he claims to like D&D! I have a terrible fear that he is only interested in doing boring monster-crawl dungeons. :-( Does anyone have any advice for me before I get thoroughly depressed? :-( Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:54:03 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: Player vs. Character Gender and Number (was Re: [Mystara] exampl Jenni A. M. Merrifield asked: > 1) How do the rest of you DM's out there feel about males playing > female characters and females playing male characters? Well, I dont have anything against it. Allthough I dont recommend it for the less experienced gamers. Nor to those I have previously had some bad excperience on the subject. And why not. If an urban, citydwelling, 25 years old student of technology, who has newer seen a war or a cow and can happily except to newer see them in his excpected 60-70 years of life can play a battlescarred Elf-veteran of 400 years old who has newer been to a city more than 10000 population, and even to those only for a evening of drinking or to buy something, rather living in woods with the wildlife, then how could he not play a woman too? Surely there are areas of life, the man can not understand 'correctly' but there allways is. And the human woman is surely allways nearer to a male player than a elf, or an dwarf. > 2) How do you feel about letting one player play two or more characters > in the /same/ campaign (i.e., both in the same party of adventurers) I dont usually allow that, or maybe it is that the players wouldnt want to play more than one character. Somethimes I let the others decide somethings to a character whose player is not attending though. Anyways I think its 'too{ hard for the players to take on two roles simultaneusly, after all, it is sometimes hard even to play one character well. Though as allways there are some exceptions too. We started a campaing just week ago, playing in the time just before the independence of the USA, using Boothill rules. The core of th campaing is an english war-batallion of some 150-200 men, who are just going inland to build a fort against the huron. And in the game all of us players have more than 1 character we command. We roleplay only one at a time though. Everyone has a commanding officer in one teem, a sergeant in couple others and some men in yet some others. And only one teem goes into 'adventure' at a time, so the character one plays is decided by the commander who decides which team goes out. At the moment i have the commander of 3rd team, sergeant major of construction works and two soldiers, and will have more when needed. But offcource this was only to serve as an excample of the other end. So there. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 02:34:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-26 15:26:52 EDT, you write: << > (save IM3; the 24 Planes of Mazikeen are not true Planes in my campaign). No What have you done with these? I think some of them are pretty cool, but it is strange that one immortal should be in control of that many planes...Also I notice that you've used some of those names on other planes. i.e. Arcadia>> I haven't really done anything with them, as I have personally discounted the entire adventure from my Mystara material... as to /Arcadia/, the Plane in IM3 was called /Arcade/, and was loosely based on a "Pinball" concept... <<> Cthonia (Entropy; Homeplane of Thanatos) sounds like a mix of Chtulhu and Thonia. Was that your intention?>> Sort of; in my campaign Thanatos is always on the brink of alliance with the Entities in the Prison Dimension, as he was ages ago; IMC, the Burrowers are a Nightmare creature, and Thanatos uses many other creatures from the Nightmare dimension... <<> Niflheim (Entropy; Homeplane of Hel) Actually it might be more appropriate if Helheim is the homeplane of Hel while Niflheim is the Homeplane of Norse Frost Giants. Gaz7 seems to support this..Both are pretty cold places though...>> Yes, in GAZ 7 Niflheim is the home of both the Frost Giants and to Hel; I guess her region is called Hel, or could easily be called Helheim as well; the land of the Frost Giants is simply the doorsep to her realm... << > Rainbow, The (Energy; Corridor in Space) The Mythological name for the Rainbow Bridge is Bifrost...>> This is the Rainbow of the Elves (between the Sylvan Realm and Alfheim of Mystara), not the Bifrost Bridge... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 02:48:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Haven Almanac Entry [Long] This is how I have developed Haven for My Campaign; this is not Canon, it is what I extrapolated and developed for My Campaign. Enjoy... The Lost Land of Haven Location: When in the Prime Plane, the Lost Land of Haven is found in the eastern most corner of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos, north of the Vyalia Elves and east of the Wufwolde Hills. Otherwise, the Lost Land of Haven is somewhere in the land of Faerie. Area: 1,344 sq. mi. Population: 2,880, including 1,440 Humans, 720 Elves, 480 Dwarves and 240 Halflings, as well as an indeterminate number of Faerie Folk (Haven Village, 480). Languages: Haven (archaic dialect of Traladaran with strong Daro admixture), Elvish (Londyrl dialect), Dwarvish (Haven Dialect), Lalor (old Halfling language). Coinage: Royal (gp), Noble (sp), Common (cp); barter is used more often, as coins are minted mostly for trade with the outside world. Government Type: Limited Monarchy, advised by the Clan Elder Council. Industries: Farming, cattle, mining Description: Haven only lies partially within the Prime Plane. The nature of the region is such that for part of the time Haven is in the Prime Plane and the other part of the time it is in the land of Faerie [the Spirit Plane, aka the Spirit World, aka the Otherworld]. Whether Haven is in the Prime Plane or in Faerie is determined by a mysterious and convoluted series of astrological calculations known only to a very few wise sages and Vyalia Elves. Thus, few can really tell when Haven will be on Mystara and when it will be in Faerie [in other words, DM's decision]. When Haven is in Faerie the area it normally covers on Mystara is an empty land of forest and hills, bathed in mists and fogs. Sometimes voices are heard out of the mists, and on rare occasions people slip into or out of Faerie. There are a few sites where it is easy to slip in between, if one knows the path. When Haven is in Faerie it is lit by a sun in the day and a moon and stars by night, though they are not the sun, moon or stars of Mystara. While Haven is in Faerie the borders of the land are bathed in mists, and those who step into them rarely return, as they end up elsewhere in Faerie [perhaps on the Ethengar Steppes or in the Dunadale Bogs, or somewhere else altogether, DM's choice]. While Haven is in Faerie a random amount of time passes on the Prime Plane for every day Haven spends in Faerie (roll once for the relationship for each period in Faerie): D10 Mystara 1 7 weeks 2-4 7 days 5+6 1 day 7-9 1 hour 10 1 minute Thus, a party can spend two months in Haven while it is in Faerie and when Haven returns to the Prime Plane discover that less than two hours have passed on Mystara, or discover that over 8 years have passed on Mystara! When Haven is in the Prime Plane it is located in eastern Karameikos. There the land is bordered by the Lake of Lost Dreams to the south, the River of Lost Dreams to the east, the Altan Tepes to the north and the Dymrak Ridge to the west. It is a land of rolling hills and meadows, with some small stands of forests in the east. The center of the land is dominated by the Silver Crown Mountains, a spur of low, weathered peaks reaching down from the Altan Tepes [the Silver Crowns are also known to the Traladarans as the Thunder Peaks]. In a wide valley in the middle of this circle of peaks lies Haven Village, which is the "capital" of the land, for this is where the Palace of the Silver Princess is found. The peoples of Haven are a goodly folk, as Haven is a land where Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings all live in harmony under the aegis of the Faeries. There are nine human clans while each of the other races are each made up of one clan. The Elders of each clan form the Elder Council, which is an advisory board for the Silver Princess. They are rarely called together, as there are few things that are required of the Council. They usually only meet once a year, the day before the Princesses Birthday, which is the largest festival in the land. Notable Sites: The Palace of the Silver Princess (in Haven Village); the Hectoliths, a stand of 100 dark and ominous Standing Stones (at the northernmost point of the Silver Crown Mountains, overlooking the Volaga Rift); the Citadel of the Silver Crown, the tower of the Black Knight of Haven (above the first valley into the Silver Crown Mountains); Dreamtree, the Clanhold of the Elves (on the west bank of the River of Dreams); Syrrak, the Clanhold of the Dwarves (on the highest peak in the Silver Crown Mountains); and Galass Downs, the Clanhold of the Halflings (in the first valley into the Silver Crown Mountains). History: The history of Haven began long ages ago in the chaos following the Great Rain of Fire. After the cataclysm, the Immortals brought the Spirit Plane, an Outer Plane charged with the essences of the four Spheres of Life, into conjunction with Mystara. The region of Haven became strongly tied with the Otherworld, and would often slip between the two planes, being part of one or the other or rarely both at the same time. The only inhabitants at the time were the native animals, as no Humans, Demihumans or Beastmen remained in the area. During the era of the Taymoran Empire the region of Haven earned a reputation to the Necromancer-Kings as a land of mists and strange magics; it became taboo to approach, and remained a land of verdant forest and wilderness until 2200 BC, when several clans of Elves broke off from Ilsundal's long march and settled in the area. They made the misty lands their home, and named it Haven, for to them it was such. The Elves lived quietly in the region until the destruction of the Taymoran Empire in 2000 BC, when the lands to the south were destroyed and formed the northern Sea of Dread. A great number of clans sailed out to the newly formed islands and reformed their society along the lines of the sea, for such were their ancient ways. Others remained in the region of Haven and on the mainland; the bulk of these clans formed the Vyalia Tribe, while a smaller number remained in Haven proper and formed the Londyrl Clan. The Londyrl lived in relative peace and tranquility for three hundred years until the explosion in the Highlands caused by another group of Elves in 1700 BC. The mystic damage caused to the Spirit Plane by the Blackmoorian Device affected the lands of Haven differently than they affected the Ethengar Steppes. The Planar Energies of the explosion caused Haven to be thrust into a secondary conjunction with the Dimension of Nightmares; thus, the dark beings from therein could use Haven as a stepping stone to enter Mystara. The Londyrl, while magically powerful, were not strong enough to stop the Nightmare creatures from entering on their own. Thus, they made an alliance with a clan of Sidhe native to the Spirit World. The alliance was cemented by the marriage of Lavenna, the Queen of the Sidhe to Aurille, the King of the Elves. With the assistance of the Sidhe and their magics the Elves were able to fend off the attacks from the Nightmare Dimension and seal many of the breaches between the two realms. Peace again settled across Haven, and ruled the land for centuries more. The Londyrl lived side by side with the Traldar fro, 1500 through 1000 BC; the Traldar regarded the land of Haven as a sacred land of Sylvan and Faerie folk, and gave the Londyrl wide and respectful berth. Then, in 1000 BC, the peace of Haven was shattered by the invasion of the Gnolls from the west. Many Elves of Haven stood by the Traldar in their battle against the Gnolls, and many fell, bringing the land of Haven nearly to ruin. During the next century, peace-loving Dwarves, Halflings and Humans were invited to live in Haven if they would aid in it's defense from attacks by the surrounding barbaric tribes. These peoples were the ancestors of the modern residents, and helped to rebuild the land of Haven. The allied peoples protected Haven from all outside forces for over a thousand years (Mystaran time); they kept mostly to themselves, leaving the Traldar alone in their Dark Age. During this period Haven was not even in the Prime Plane overly much, and as a result the very land of Haven became little more than a myth to the people of Mystara. Also during this period the relationship between the Sidhe and the others residents of Haven grew more distant as the threat from the Dimension of Nightmares fell into tales of myth and legend. The Elven King Aurille passed away in 1400 BC, and was succeeded by his wife, the Sidhe Queen Lavenna. Queen Lavenna passed on to her next incarnation in 1100 BC, leaving the land in the hands of her son, also named Aurille after his father. Aurille II ruled from 1100 through 400 BC. His son, Orollion, ruled from 400 BC through 200 AC; his wife was Rowena the Minstrel, an Elf from the Land of Aran on the Isle of Dawn. Aurille III, the son of Orollion and Rowena, ruled from 200 through 600 AC, and was a strong ally of the Attleson Kings of Darokin, especially in the face of the Thyatian threat. He opened the borders of Haven to the Daro peoples, and many Daro immigrants intermarried into the Human Haven clans during his rule. Orollion II took the throne in 600 AC; he ruled wisely for many years, until the Thyatian invasion of Traladara in 900 AC. He felt that the Thyatians would eventually turn to Haven, and thus sought out ways to defeat the Thyatians. Having been powerful in the ways of magic, he decided to seek out a solution to the threat in the land of Faerie, and went on a quest into the mists surrounding Haven. He left his daughter, Princess Argenta, to rule Haven in his stead. He has not been heard from since, and though it is believed by many that he has been killed on his quest, Argenta refuses to be crowned Queen until definitive proof is found. In 960 AC the Palace in Haven Village was nearly destroyed; for a brief period of time the entire realm was firmly grounded in the Prime Plane as the conjunction between Haven and the Spirit Plane was overshadowed by the conjunction between Haven and the Dimension of Nightmares. An Eye of Arik, one of his many artifacts, was to blame, as it was used by the priest Catharandamus to attempt to bring Arik's Avatar into the Prime Plane. The crops withered, the cattle sickened, and the land was overrun by Goblins, Hobgoblins and Orcs. A group of wandering adventurers brought an end to the threat, and cast Catharandamus and his allies out of the land. After rebuilding the Palace, Princess Argenta married Ellis the Pure, a Knight of the Order of the White Drake from the Isle of Dawn [Ellis had no part in the duplicity of the Order of the White Drake in the War of '59, and left the Order when it's treachery was discovered]. Prince Ellis, now known as the Black Knight (in mourning for his lost Order), guards Haven from any further incursions from the Dimension of Nightmares; he often brings in adventurers from elsewhere to send on missions to hunt down rumors of the followers of Arik and other Nightmare beings. Princess Argenta still believes her father may be alive; her Grandmother, Rowena, who appeared out of the mists of Faerie during the time of Catharandamus, knew nothing of his whereabouts, and Rowena's sponsor, Thendara (Ordana, an Immortal who works with the Sidhe-Protectors), also could not (or rather, would not) help her; thus, she seeks aid from adventurers who would brave the Mists of Faerie. Catharandamus, now mad and decrepit, keeps vigil at the Hectoliths, seeking some sign from his Patron Immortal. Important Figures: Argentum, the Silver Princess; Ellis, the Black Knight; Ariksbane, the White Dragon; Dyramil Mellirian, Elven Clanmaster; Syrak Derkrist, Dwarven Clanmaster; Ghaerosz Merrytoes, Hin Clanmaster; Catharandamus, the Mad Hermit; Thendara, Immortal-Level Sidhe-Protector. Flora and Fauna: Many normal animals inhabit the lands of Haven; of these, a fair number exhibit higher than normal intelligence, due to the nature of Faerie. Many Sylvan and Faerie creatures also inhabit the land of Haven, including Centaurs, Dryads, Fauns, Pixies, Sprites and even a few Treants. Very few baneful creatures inhabit the land; the most notable are a clan of Wood Imps in the region of the Hectoliths and a pride or two of Owlbears. There is also the rare foray or raid by the Goblins of the Dymrak and the Orcs of the Wufwolde Hills. Unbeknownst to the peoples of Haven, a small group of Beholder Cultists of Arik have set up shop at the Hectoliths, allied themselves with Catharandamus, and have begun contacting the local Goblin and Orc clans, who remember tales of the good times when they raided Haven 40 some years ago. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 03:02:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] KKoA Question In a message dated 97-05-27 02:49:49 EDT, you write: << <<> Cthonia (Entropy; Homeplane of Thanatos) sounds like a mix of Chtulhu and Thonia. Was that your intention?>> Sort of; in my campaign Thanatos is always on the brink of alliance with the Entities in the Prison Dimension, as he was ages ago; IMC, the Burrowers are a Nightmare creature, and Thanatos uses many other creatures from the Nightmare dimension... >> Sorry, I misread that; it's way to late to be writing! I intended a relationship between "Cthulhu" and Thanatos, not between Cthulhu and Thonia... "Cthon", IIRC, is a Greek word meaning "underground" or "earth" or some such, with darker intonations (Cthonians are a Lovecraftian race of beings not unlike the Burrowers... or rather, the Burrowers are not unlike the Cthonians)... and it sounded like Cthulhu, so I went with it... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:38:58 PDT From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [Mystara] linking Mystara pages On Sat, 24 May 1997, David Melik wrote: > Someone, Mystaros I think, mentioned that it would be cool if Mystara pages > are linked. Coincedentally, a few days ago I thought it would be cool if > there was a Mystara web ring... maybe at the lists homepage or something. I > don't know, it might take a lot of work though... Most homepages that hold Mystara-relevant material can be found on Shawn's homepage or in the Mystara FAQ (we keep each other informed of new pages we've found). Whenever we see someone mention he has set up his own Mystara page, or we stumble upon a link that leads to such a page, or even we find it thanks to a web serach engine, we had it to our list. Of course, I'd have nothing against an automated, systematic procedure... Herve Musseau Primary Email: herve@hotmail.com Also: musseauh@esiee.fr (old, checked once a month till July) Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh (till July) I'm a QSQWBEEEGGNFR Mystaran - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #91 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #92 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, May 28 1997 Volume 02 : Number 092 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:58:08 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Time travel > For those of you interested in time travel in Mystara, I have adapted the > Chronomancer supplement to our favorite world. I guess I posted it to the > list a few months ago, so you can dug it out from the digests, or check it > out on my homepage at : > hhtp://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh > > Herve Musseau excerpt from the chronomancy section of Herve's webpage: "Maelstroms: The maelstroms often form around events of particular importance to Mystaran history; it is speculated that some vortices that are part of such maelstroms go into alternate Mystaras, where the events has turned differently,..." i am in the process of dming the comeback inn module my campaigns are usually of the "mystery type" dealing with extensive investigations i can forsee many possibilities by sending the pcs back to 1014ac but with the great rain of fire never happening (on an alternate mystara) how do these maelstroms/vorticies work can they take people in??? are they like a swirling cloud sitting in front of you or can you only come in contact with them if you are time traveling??? - -Crip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:57:44 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Player Problems At 04:57 27-05-97 +0100, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have a problem with one of my players. > >I have tried to work out how to get round it, but I can't work it out. >First of all, he is my cousin, so it's not as simple as saying "you >can't play if you won't cooperate". Second, he is quite hard to speak >to about this sort of thing without him walking off in a huff. > >So with that in mind: > >(1) He always says he wants to play an evil character. Example: my >first campaign we played he got it into his head that he wanted to be a >Nagpa. I tried to tell him that it wouldn't fit, that he wouldn't enjoy >it, that it would spoil the other players' game, and that Nagpa aren't >very good. He wouldn't listen. To this day he moans about it, though >he does acknowledge now that they really aren't very good. > >When we were going to play Middle-earth, he of course wanted to be a >Nazgul. It's not as if he doesn't know how completely and utterly >impossible that would be... but no, he insisted that either he would be >a Nazgul or an Orc. He wouldn't accept anything else, eventually >resulting in our not playing the game at all and my having wasted (well, >not entirely since I'm interested anyway) about 50 pounds on it. > >Finally in our latest campaign he is from Thyatis, and he saw the Storm >Soldiers and started to insist that he wanted to be one of them. >Thankfully I managed to persuade him to be a Paladin (or rather Fighter) >instead, and then he changed his mind and decided to secretly be a >cleric of Tarastia, which is working out okay. > >Anyway, that isn't even the problem I was initially going to talk about, >but do any of you on the list have problems with this too? > >The only way I could persuade him not to be a Storm Soldier is to say I >would let him be one in a future campaign (currently dubbed "The Evil >Campaign", though it is really neutral - evil only from a certain point >of view). But the trouble is that he already has a far more interesting >character lined up for it... > >(2) He refuses point blank (worse, when I asked him he sent me back an >e-mail swearing at me very nastily) to work out any details of his >character, to read anything whatsoever on his culture, to do anything >for his background, etc.. Currently I know lot about the two other >characters in the game, but nothing about him - including nothing about >his interests for adventures. > >And yet he complains when I run adventures which he doesn't like, where >he was railroaded into it. I try to tell him that if he doesn't tell me >what he wants there is no way for me to work it out, but he doesn't >listen. He also doesn't seem to understand the work I put into these >adventures, in which he just sits at the table reading a magazine and >barely participating. > >So, I am left in a situation where I have no idea what he wants to do >adventure-wise, and whatever I decide to do next is more than likely to >be "not to his liking". I will spend a few evenings on it only to be >told that it's no good. All the other characters have goals, no matter >how vague, for me to work something from. > >Finally since he knows nothing of his culture (Thyatis) and pretty much >nothing of the game world, I have little means of interesting him in >complex (or even simple) plots, politics and such. His excuse is that >he "doesn't like reading D&D stuff". (He prefers women's magazines >which he doesn't read but just looks at the pictures.) > >Perhaps the worst part of it is that he claims to like D&D! I have a >terrible fear that he is only interested in doing boring monster-crawl >dungeons. :-( > >Does anyone have any advice for me before I get thoroughly depressed? >:-( > >Thorf. Thats easy....kick this damn ass out. If he doesn't want to play with YOUR rules, then no playing for him, cousin or no cousin.... He spoils your fun, and probably the fun of others as well... Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:20:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Kogolor notes > >1. If the Kogolor don't have a King, who is then Bifric III (PWA)? > > We only noticed him, along with some other little PWA discrepancies, > after Mischa had completed his work. He decided not to try and make it > fit since some of the ideas in the PWA were radically different from > Mischa's ideas, instead leaving it to individual DMs to decide how to > reconcile these two different views. I support him in this. I think I mentioned this in the disclaimer at the very end of the HWR actually.. > But if you do want to fit all of the canon stuff with Mischa's HWR, feel > free. In my opinion it wouldn't be so hard because although some stuff > conflicts, it doesn't badly conflict. I am considering doing an > adaptation with the PWA info fitted in (if it's okay with you, Mischa!). Fine by me :) > >2. Plural of Klaurmann is Klaurmaenner I didnt base the Kogolor words on any language so they need not follow any set of 'pluralizing' rules or whatever. > >3. Religion issue: it is not believable that Kagyar faith has the same > >importance as the church of Frey/Freya (as it is derived from what u wrote). > >IMO Kagyar should have NO MORE followers among the Kogolors while Frey and > >Freya should have much more importance in Kogolors' faith and everyday life > >(they were the first who gave the dwarves help and clerical spells, after > >all, according to HW) The Kogolor have no reason to believe that Kagyar abandoned them. So, some likely cling to the belief in him. And I didnt catch that reference to Frey and Freyja granting powers to the Kogolor. Where did you find this tidbit? I will update the religion section to gel with it, if need be. 4. Artifact: They have a Forge of Power? It's not likely, since it's Kagyar's relic. I don't ever recall seeing this. If you can find the source for me, I'll try to get an alternative worked up Thorfinn already answered the thing about skis so thats it.. Um, if anyone thinks this is just becoming me and Mystaros and Thorfinn talking to each other, I'm free to take it to private email and off the list proper "We love your adherence to democratic principles and democratic processes" - - George Bush, 1981, to dictator Ferdinard Marcos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:36:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MOrient On Sun, 25 May 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > Are you referring to XiXia? It is a (IIRC) major city along the silk > road. It was among the first conquered by the Mongols under Genghis Khan > (following, IIRC, Samarkand). It is an actual place. Duh. Leave it to my faulty memory. I had XiXia confused with Xinjiang, the area along the Silk Road. XiXia was the name of a dynasty. :p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:40:52 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ages of Wisdom Hi there -- thought I'd take the opportunity to cross-post an idea I've been toying with. This could have some applications for Mystara-Orient. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- A campaign setting with values based on Time. This is a place where age, wisdom, and the respect of ancestors seem to dominate, a bit like ancient China. The history and traditions of this ancient setting goes back some 5,000 years. This setting could be used in one of the Mystara regions that hasn't yet been covered (Mystara- Orient?) This worship of Time affects nobility in a great way. Unlike other civilizations, the magical nature of nobility causes its greatest figureheads to appear as these truly ancient, mysterious rulers. Nobility starts when the monarch, some ageless imperial figure, bestows knighthood (or oriental equivalent) upon a family. After holding its title for 300 years (ie. the emperor/empress has not stripped the family of its title, it always had legitimate heir, etc), the family title may be elevated to that of a barony (or oriental equivalent). At 400 years, the title is elevated to that of a viscount; to a count at 500, and so on until the title of prince after 900 years of continual dynasty. Aging Magic The unusual thing about this nobility is its ability to almost defeat time itself. As the family title "ages", the legitimate holder of the title slows his own aging process. It is a magical ability that is imbued on the holder of the title at the time it is knighted by the emperor. It is naturally inheritable and grows in strength. It is said that the life force is drawn from the subjects on the land of the title holder. The Ages of Wisdom (essentially in human terms) break down as follows: middle-age (45-59 human years), old-age (60-89), and venerable (90, possibly up to 130). Nobility magic does not affect the aging of young and mature adults. The chart below, however, shows how life span is affected at later ages: Enhanced Life Span Title Middle-Age Old-Age Venerable Knight 1.2 1.4 1.6 Baron 1.4 1.8 2.0 Viscount 1.6 2.2 3.0 Count 1.8 2.6 4.0 Marquis 2.0 3.0 5.0 Duke 2.2 3.5 6.0 Gd Duke 2.4 4.0 7.0 Prince 2.6 5.0 8.0 Emperor 3.0 6.0 10.0 Let's look at how an empress might age as a result of this power. At 45 she was considered a middle-aged woman. Her old age would normally occur 15 years later, however, due to the slower aging rate given in the chart above, old age would instead occur 45 years later (15 x 3 = 45). By then, although the empress really looks ninety years old, biologically she is more like a sixty-year old. A normal man reaches venerable age another 30 years later. For the empress this instead becomes 180 years (30 x 6 = 180). By then, the empress is 270 years old and appears frail and ageless, her skin parched and wrinkled by the endless worries of almost three centuries of dynastic rulership. Assuming a natural death occurring 40 years later for a normal man, this instead leaves the empress an amazing 400 more years to live (40 x 10 = 400). By then, she has lived a grand total of 670 years, presumably the maximum possible for a human empress. By then, she looks more like a dried up husk of her former self. When moving, her mummified flesh creaks slightly like old leather. Her eyes are nearly dried out and sunken deep in their sockets. Her raspy voice is almost reduced to a whisper. Compared to the empress, the best a knight could ever hope to achieve is a total life span of 169 years, 310 years for a count, or 423 years for a duke. This explains why it is necessary to hold a title in a family for so long before being elevated to the next. For the very old nobles, surviving long enough may allow them to gain the next title, and survive even longer as a result. For some, it becomes an end in itself. Inheritance and Succession Only princes can eventually hold the imperial throne, provided the empress dies heirless. The oldest family of princes normally takes the succession. This means these people would go to great lengths to keep track of genealogies. All titles are recorded in the Velvet Tome, a sacred, ancient book held by the Imperial Scribes. When a title is first awarded, it is assumed both the head of the family, the first spouse (if any or more than one), and all past ancestors bear the title as well. Naturally, the head of the family alone benefits from the title's slow aging magic. Inheritance is a critical issue. Gender never affects the mechanics of inheritance, age alone does. The eldest scion always comes before the others. The heir normally is the oldest direct descendant of the oldest branch -- and -- the heir must have reached the Ages of Wisdom. If not, then the first spouse of the dead noble can hold the title and receive its aging magic. The spouse effectively becomes "regent for life" -- in other words, permanently remaining the head of the family until his/her own death. If no spouse is alive at that time, the oldest sibling of the dead noble then holds the regency. If no sibling is alive, the emperor then names a regent. At the time of the regent's death, the title finally goes back to the original legitimate heir (if still alive), or the next available heir from his/her original branch. And so on. Regency is a perceived as a bad omen -- for very good reasons. It almost certainly guarantees the legitimate heir will seek the death of the regent when reaching the Ages of Wisdom. As a result, regents tend to eliminate such heirs before their can reach the Ages of Wisdom. This naturally provokes endemic wars of succession among the nobility. Here's an example: a baron dies at age 180, many years after his own spouse and offspring have all passed on. The heir should come from the branch of the oldest scion, which leads to an aging great, grand- daughter. She becomes the head of the barony. Should she die before her child reached 45, her spouse or her oldest sibling would then become the regent. If the holder of a title dies heirless (no direct descendants at all, or none expected at the time), the dynasty ends and the empress seizes all of its lands, wealth assets, and armies. If a spouse is still alive, the spouse retains the title and its magical power, which is referred to as a wardenship (as opposed to a regency). All assets finally revert to the imperial crown at the time of the spouse's death, regardless of the existence of any new progeny. The latter have no right to the title, but may move to the Imperial Court and receive imperial protection. The empress may parcel out the old dynasty's land and create new knighthoods. Throughout this process, inheritance can only be transmitted through legitimate blood ties -- the best spouses can accomplish is a regency or a wardenship. In other words, the inheritance eventually follows the strongest bloodline. The holder of a title cannot simply "choose" a successor or disinherit a direct heir. The inheritance and the passing of the aging magic is thought of as the divine order of the universe. The Temple of the Eternal Jade Dragon The inheritance is not in fact a divine and natural process. Far from it. There is a link here with the Nucleus of the Spheres in Glantri. The latter's goal was to assist the creation of Immortals in the Sphere of Energy. It was one of the causes of the Wrath of the Immortals -- supporters of the other spheres felt that the Nucleus supported a single philosophy at the expense of all the others. Unbeknownst to most Immortals, Immortals from the Sphere of Time therefore decided to create their own answer to the Nucleus. They created a comparable artifact whose goal was to support the creation of Immortals of Time -- the Eternal Jade Dragon. Once completed, they moved the artifact roughly 5,000 years back in time and placed it in a land far from the Known World (presumably somewhere on Eastern Skothar). The artifact sparked the founding of a local empire, quite ancient by Known World standards. The artifact conferred its owner an unlimited lifespan. It also allowed the owner to bestow upon others some of his/her own lifeforce. Over the years and centuries, the first holder of the Eternal Jade Dragon founded the present dynasty, the empire, and the first "knights" to hold together all the lands of the empire. Eventually, the artifact allowed these nobles to grow in power, age, and wisdom. Since the emperors have the ability to take back the power they once gave away, they can thus control nobility to a degree beyond that of normal imperial authority. Only the emperors and the high priests of the Temple of the Eternal Jade Dragon know of the artifact, and especially its link with the imperial throne and with the entire nobility caste. The idea behind the artifact is to allow long life to a selected few, in order for them to achieve the requirements to attain immortality in the Sphere of Time. Naturally, all these nobles and their emperors must follow the Path of the Dynast. To become eligible, nobles who inherited their titles must "add" another 50,000 subjects to their realms. As described above, the heir must be a direct blood relative (not an adopted scion). Being a noble however, ensures a Site for a Petition (the Temple of the Eternal Jade Dragon), where any of the Immortals of Time may be sought. A petition can be presented if the candidate survives a lonely journey through the Thousand Caves of Despair, supposedly lying underneath the Temple (it is likely these caves are outer-planar in nature). The candidate's own age then improves the petition results, at the rate of +1 for every full century. Except for the effect of the artifact on the petitioner's lifespan, aging must be natural; if not, magical steps may be taken to correct the petitioner's age. The temple is the ancient, sacred location for the artifact. There, all people may honor Immortals of Time. Its mortal protectors, the priests, are suitably well armed and trained. However, its true defense comes from the spirits of all the nobles' deceased ancestors -- of which there are many more than the priests and their mundane guards. Not to mention the occasional Immortal who just might be paying attention at the moment the temple is profaned. The ancestors' spirits also are the ones who control the Thousand Caves of Despair and devise the tests. The ancestors of the present nobility exist through the glory of their descendants -- the more powerful a living dynasty, the more powerful the spirit of its ancestors. A dynasty dying heirless is the worst possible fate for its ancestors, as they vanish into oblivion. The priests of the temple usually endeavor to prevent such from happening. Until a noble actually attains immortality, the fate of all his/her ancestors remains tied not only to the artifact but also the survival of their original dynasty. The ancestral spirits of a defunct dynasty forever become part of the artifact. In this lies the key to the artifact's destruction -- if all nobles, including the empress, and their legitimate heirs would ever come to die, the artifact would crumble into dust and blow away forever. Day Without Magic The artifact's power is not affected. However, in the event it would be, the aging magic reverses. In other words, instead of slowing down the aging process, it accelerates it for the duration of the magical blackout. For example, an emperor of venerable age multiplies its remaining lifespan by 10 -- without the artifact, the remaining lifespan is divided by 10 instead. - --------------------------------------------- Hope this sparked your imaginations! :) Bruce Heard  ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:26:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Location of Haven On Sun, 25 May 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > 1- Where is Haven? > The map of Gaz1 seems to locate it somewhere north of The Island of Lost > Dreams (sorry, I don't know the english name), but that area is also > described in the module B10: Night's Dark Terror, where Haven is nowhere > to be found! Also in K:KoA there aren't info about Haven. I'd place it more along the eastern shoreline of the lake, myself, as that is closest to the Vyalia grounds (from Dawn of the Emperors). I think that B10 was written well before it was established that Haven was to be set in Karameikos. B1-9 is essenntially a retcon of all those early basic modules, resetting them in Karameikos. > For this reason I should locate it elsewhere. But where? We know that it > is surrounded by mountains and that in Haven live elves, dwarfs, > halfling and humans. Goblins, ogres and hobgoblins live near, too. I'd put it where I said. Don't forget the presence of the Mighty Argos, the huge Green that lives around the lake of Lost Dreams. :) > 2- Who are the "protectors"? > They are three magical beings. They look like elves, but they have green > shining skins. They fight against evil and they struggle for the > downfall of Arik. Could they be King Halav, Petra and Z.? But why should > they use the forms of elves? According to B1-9, the Protector is Thendara (aka Ordana), as I recall. > 3- Who is Ellis the Strong and where does he come from? > Has anyone developed his character? Where does the Knights of White > Dragons come form? Probably not from Karameikos. I think others have mentioned this, but the Knights of the White Drake come from Thyatis. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:57:31 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? On Mon, 26 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Well, please note that I did say "IMC", meaning In MY Campaign... one thing > about the Glantrian timeline that never fit in was the fact that he was > converted in 720 AC, yet settlers other than Flaems did not arrive from > elswhere until 730 AC. IIRC, there have been stragglers flowing into Glantri over a period of time, though not steadily until c.730 AC (I may be misremembering), but when I made a major canonical timeline, this was indeed one of the discrepancies (and there were quite a few). I did something similar, saying that Morphail was sent to Glantri by Alphaks at some point after his conversion to Nosferatuism, and began to set up his own domain. He is one of the few nobles of Glantri to actually be present for most of the events that took place around there. Interesting stuff. I'll have to remember exactly what I did with him... [Interesting stuff on Morphail from Mystaros' campaign snipped] I'm curious, Mystaros, have you incorporated the (admittedly very sketchy) elements from CM8- the Endless Stair into your Glantri history? Specifically, the Barony of Two-Lakes, the Cheiromar, etc? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:22:58 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Player Problems In a message dated 97-05-27 00:48:49 EDT, you write: << Does anyone have any advice for me before I get thoroughly depressed? :-( Thorf. >> Dump the guy. Sounds like a real loser. It's not fair to yourself to have to put up with that kind of crap, cousin or not. You're the DM. You should acknowledge what your players want to do, or they won't have any fun . . . but that only goes so far. Decide how you're going to run your campaign, stick to it, and if the guy can't cope . . . ditch him! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:40:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? In a message dated 97-05-27 19:59:04 EDT, Cthulhudrew wrote: << I'm curious, Mystaros, have you incorporated the (admittedly very sketchy) elements from CM8- the Endless Stair into your Glantri history? Specifically, the Barony of Two-Lakes, the Cheiromar, etc? >> Nope... not in the least. It is one of the few things that I have discounted entirely from my Mystaran campaign. I suppose I should make a list of such... generally in order of importance, here are some major and minor things I have discounted or changed In My Campaign: 1) The sinking of Alphatia at the end of the WotI. Didn't happen IMC. Alphatia was way to cool to destroy so easily. It got smacked Big Time by the Doomsday Device, and fell into anarchy and civil war, but did not sink... 2) Gaz 4: The Kingdom of Ierendi. Pretty much in toto... I've adapted much of the material, but I felt it was just way too corny... 3) No offense Bruce, but... Gaz 10... I made this more serious. There wasn't anything wrong with it per se, but it was, well, a tad on the light side for my campaign... 4) PC 4... changed a lot concerning the origins of Lycanthropy; the Plague of the 5th century is still there, but it simply made Lycanthropes a lot more common... 5) Alfheim... still stands in 1014 AC. The Shadow Elves didn't win in their bid to take over, but a lot of nasty things are still going on in the Canolbarth... 6) Gaz 8... The Five Shires are a little more Tolkien, a little less Greenwood... 7) The Isle of Dawn... a lot more cultures, a lot more people! The lands between Thyatis and Alphatia have been settled since time immemorial... there should be a reason for holding onto these lands! My new cultures include the Daumancer of the North (Normans), the Helska of the Northwest (Anglo-Saxons), the Dunael of the Northeast (British/Scots), the Arans of Redstone (Irish), the Ispans of the Tigris Plains (as per Red Steel/Savage Coast), the Amancerians of the Shadow Coast (Italians), the Caerda of the southern coast (Scots Highlander/Norse), the Asieri of the Great Escarpment (Picts, Hyborian and Historical/Bedouin), the Aran Elves (a chaotic Elvish society), the Ispan Elves (as per Glantri's Belcadizian Elves), the Svirfneblin (Deep Gnomes of the Escarpment), the Hunakoi (red-skinned Greco-Amerindian Stone Giants of the Aurora Valley), the Hruka Stone Folk (an offshoot of the Rock Men), and a few others... in addition to the Traldar and Thothian peoples of the east coasts... 8) Modules... B8 didn't fit at all in the Known World (maybe elsewhere, I haven't worried over it); B9 fit here and there; XL-1 (yea, right!); CM6 was not on my Mystara (but the Oards have popped up here and there); IM2 hasn't happened; and IM3 just was too silly (IMO)... 9) Lots of other stuff here and there, as several have noted throughout my posts :)... Ochalea got the "Isle of Dawn" treatment for one; Bellissaria also; of course, IMC Blackmoor was on Skothar; Alphatian society is altered somewhat (Vance's Dying Earth meets Garret's Angevin Empire of Lord Darcy)... 10) Lots of stuff throughout the history of my campaign to account for discrepancies and editing mistakes. For example, IMC there were two major seismic convultions in the Known World: one in 2000 BC, that created the Minrothad Isles and the "Kikianu Caldera" of Ierendi, and another in 1700 BC, which destroyed the "Kikianu Caldera" and formed the Ierendi Isles and the Osltnad Isles. Also, cultures wise, there were the Taymoran peoples ca. 2500 BC (mentioned only in passing in PC3); I developed them into an Empire ruled by Necromancer-Kings (who were Nosferatu); that culture spawned a whole series of new cultures IMC, most notably the Nithian society... jus a few things off the top of my head... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:14:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? On Tue, 27 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > 1) The sinking of Alphatia at the end of the WotI. Didn't happen IMC. > Alphatia was way to cool to destroy so easily. It got smacked Big Time by the > Doomsday Device, and fell into anarchy and civil war, but did not sink... Agreed. I nuked Sundsvall (leaving some nasty magical radioactive fallout for years and miles around. Fun for all ages: the mages can study it (a la the Radiance of Glantri?), causes nasty mutations, etc. I utilize a form of Gamma World rules to deal with the radiation poisoning, mutations, etc.). The rest of the nation is pretty much in a civil war, using some interesting notes provided by Oeystein Lund eons ago on the list. Zandor is backed by one faction, his sister by another (the sister who rules, I think, Theranderol). Blackheart and the Shiye-Lawr have declared their independence, Arogansa is trying to annex territory to the south (Randel, primarily, IIRC). Lots of fun. :) All sorts of lobbying among the wizards that survived: some want to restore the Empire, some don't, some don't care... > 3) No offense Bruce, but... Gaz 10... I made this more serious. There wasn't > anything wrong with it per se, but it was, well, a tad on the light side for > my campaign... *Clutching heart in terror* What? I... I... I don't think I can talk to you anymore... GAZ10 was my favorite GAZ of all. And I think the light-hearted approach is pretty much the best (IMO) way to handle the 'noids. :) > 4) PC 4... changed a lot concerning the origins of Lycanthropy; the Plague of > the 5th century is still there, but it simply made Lycanthropes a lot more > common... I agree to a large extent. For one thing, lycanthropy was present in Blackmoor (at least in one isolated? case- the Baron of something or other... Glendower, maybe? Who was cursed with Lycanthropy by the Egg of Coot.) Not to mention that the Alphatians, who brought it, had been around for 1500 years prior to the major advent of lycanthropy... > 5) Alfheim... still stands in 1014 AC. The Shadow Elves didn't win in their > bid to take over, but a lot of nasty things are still going on in the > Canolbarth... That's pretty much my take. The SE control the major central portions of Alfheim, having raided in 1006 (or whatever it was). No damage to the ToL, or the forest, though the fighting has been bloody. Relations with Darokin are strained currently, as the AE are overflowing into the areas around Alfheim- which makes the borderlands rulers more than a little upset... > 7) The Isle of Dawn... a lot more cultures, a lot more people! The lands > between Thyatis and Alphatia have been settled since time immemorial... there > should be a reason for holding onto these lands! > the Hruka Stone Folk (an offshoot of the Rock Men), and a few others... I wondered about these folk, since you mentioned them back in your Nithia post from a while back. > 8) Modules... B8 didn't fit at all in the Known World (maybe elsewhere, I > haven't worried over it); I put it up on the Adri Varma plateau, where an outpost of the Chameleon Men civilization of eons ago was located. Due to the Spell of Forgetfulness (or whatever its called) cast by the Herathians, this place has gone largely forgotten, save by curious archaeologists. > XL-1 (yea, right!); Yep. Interesting module (though deadly as hell... yeesh!), but no likely location. Possibly the northern reaches/heldann/wendar area or something like that. Maybe Norwold... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:17:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Looking for Daniel... I seem to have misplaced Daniel Boese's address, and can't find it in my backlogs of the digest... :( If you're out there, or if anyone knows his address offhand, I'd love to get in touch with him. Thanks! :) Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:08:34 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? On Tue, 27 May 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >IIRC, there have been stragglers flowing into Glantri over a period of >time, though not steadily until c.730 AC (I may be misremembering), but >when I made a major canonical timeline, this was indeed one of the >discrepancies (and there were quite a few). I did something similar, >saying that Morphail was sent to Glantri by Alphaks at some point after >his conversion to Nosferatuism, and began to set up his own domain. He is >one of the few nobles of Glantri to actually be present for most of the >events that took place around there. Interesting stuff. I'll have to >remember exactly what I did with him... What sources did you use that conflicted, Drew? I've been working on the Glantrian history from GAZ3 lately for my timeline, and although I found a few discrepancies (I think) I don't recall anything about Morphail. Is it from the AD&D Glantri set or what? Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:42:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? On Wed, 28 May 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > What sources did you use that conflicted, Drew? I've been working on > the Glantrian history from GAZ3 lately for my timeline, and although I > found a few discrepancies (I think) I don't recall anything about > Morphail. Is it from the AD&D Glantri set or what? Not just about Morphail (the only one I can think of for him is the one Mystaros mentioned, about the Traladarans not having moved to Glantri prior to the onset of his becoming a Nosferatu). I was referring more to the discrepancies among various sources as to the ages of some of the notable figures there (notably Prinz Jaggar, and the discrepancies of his mother's age, his age, and his children's ages), as well as a few other errors I've noted. I don't recall all of them offhand, but I've noted most of them on my timeline, that I think should be available for perusal on Shawn Stanley's homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:35:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? In a message dated 97-05-27 22:28:45 EDT, you write: << > 3) No offense Bruce, but... Gaz 10... I made this more serious. There wasn't > anything wrong with it per se, but it was, well, a tad on the light side for > my campaign... *Clutching heart in terror* What? I... I... I don't think I can talk to you anymore... GAZ10 was my favorite GAZ of all. And I think the light-hearted approach is pretty much the best (IMO) way to handle the 'noids. :) >> Hey! Whoa! Settle down Big Guy, don't stir R'lyeh up over this! I never, ever, ever said I *disliked* Gaz 10, I just felt it was a bit too lighthearted to fit into my personal campaign scheme; I made it darker, more Mordorish, so to speak. I loved Gaz 10 for itself as it was... I even worked up another Beastman land in a similar vein, the Land of Ungri-La, lost under the Black Mountains of Hule. Ruled by the Grand Poo-Bah Ogre King Ungri-Lor, with his "beautiful" daughter Ungri-Lee and his twin sons, Jedh and Bhili-Babh, designed with the most fiendish puns I could concoct (nothing like Bruce's or Rogar of Moorias, but the worst I could do). Lot's of fun there... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:17:03 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Player Problems At 04.57 27/05/97 +0100, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have a problem with one of my players. > >I have tried to work out how to get round it, but I can't work it out. >First of all, he is my cousin, so it's not as simple as saying "you >can't play if you won't cooperate". Second, he is quite hard to speak >to about this sort of thing without him walking off in a huff. >Perhaps the worst part of it is that he claims to like D&D! I have a >terrible fear that he is only interested in doing boring monster-crawl >dungeons. :-( > >Does anyone have any advice for me before I get thoroughly depressed? >:-( >Thorf. > Do u want a real nasty advice to kick him out of the way? Well, try this: have his character be kidnapped or somehow thrown out of the game, but not permanently, and have the other PCs got a chance to rescue him. So in the meantime u will tell him: "Oh, well.. u can do other things this afternoon/evening, cause u know the others are gonna rescue your character and until they've done it, you're not in the game, so don't bother to come altogether" And the trick is to let the adventure for his rescue mission go on for a veery long time, so maybe he will forget about playing D&D and won't come anymore. I think it's a good solution, provided he doesn't want to change his character (so i think u should give him a big magical item or two to make him think that to change character in order to play again is not wise: too much loss) and provided you convince him that the "rescue mission" won't take too long... but then the problems lurk behind every corner, and it's not your fault if the adventure is taking so long... ;) That's my advice. (i can be really nasty sometimes, i assure you, especially with naughty players) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:05:37 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos Church At 20.59 26/05/97 +0200, Haavard wrote: >DM wrote: >> Note that the daimon is a pure philosophical thing, quite the contrary of >> the Draculi, which is real (at least for Traladarans) and much more >> menacing. It all depends on how you like to portray the CoK. Maybe it could >> have daimons, whereas the Church of traladara would have Draculi, and >> therefore a sacred ritual to banish them (much like the Boldavian >> Procession. I think there should be something similar in Traladara, since >> the Boldavians are traladaran descendants) > >Interesting. What exactly is the Procession? > It is detailed in every PWA and in GAZ3, but basically it's a procession during which the common Boldavians go around the town streets holding torches and garlic flowers to repel the forces of Darkness in the darkest of nights, IIRC. Anyway, i was thinking about your Crystal Halls of Seven Moons, and i came up with this idea: i think that, since this is paradise for the Church of Karameikos, it should be called the Crystal Halls of the FIVE Moons, one for each Immortal of the Church. There would be 5 different heavens, each one ruled by one of the Immortals of the Church, and they should be different somehow, even though i don't know how. And as for Hell, i think there should be FIVE hells, each one ruled by one Major Demon that is the counterpart of each Immortal in the Church's religion. So we won't have only Thanatos to oppose Asterius: certainly he's the leader as Asterius is for the Good Immortals, but he has also "trusted" fiends that help him trying to get the people away from the White Light. I think there should be 5 different hells, like in Chinese mythology (even though there are much more hells for the chinese): one for Thanatos, one for Demogorgon, one for Orcus, one for Talitha and one for Ranivorus. This is the clique of five immortals opposed to the Church of Karameikos IMO... there could even be an Evil Church worshipping it, the Black Church of Chaos (or something like this)? What do u think? DM ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #92 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #93 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, May 31 1997 Volume 02 : Number 093 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:38:52 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] CM8: The Endless Stair At 15.57 27/05/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I'm curious, Mystaros, have you incorporated the (admittedly very >sketchy) elements from CM8- the Endless Stair into your Glantri history? >Specifically, the Barony of Two-Lakes, the Cheiromar, etc? > OK Cthul, now u aroused my curiosity. I am not an adventure-modules-eater as you, so i admit i lack many (well, almost all) of the modules ever published for D&D. I've heard about this CM8 before, but the guy who told me about it didn't recommend it, so i never bought the stuff. What's it like, what's the plot and where is it staged (i know it's staged north of Glantri, is it?)? Thanx again DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:47:51 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Time travel At 11.58 27/05/97 -0400, you wrote: >how do these maelstroms/vorticies work >can they take people in??? >are they like a swirling cloud sitting in front of you >or can you only come in contact with them if you are time traveling??? > >-Crip > AFAIK, the maelstrom can be observed only from Temporal PRime, and they are huge vortex of energy from which many branches (more properly called vortex) departs. The Maelstrom usually creates in "strategic" point in Temporal Prime, that's to say in connection with events that shake the very fabric of time and space (suche as the Blackmoor catastrophe), so even though it's possible to go in Temporal Prime, reach a Maelstrom and using its highways to reach an alternate reality (as u wanna to), it's almost impossible to penetrate a maelstrom from the Prime Plane. Sure, there are good chances that if u go in the very center of the cataclismic event that originates the maelstrom you get sucked in Temporal Prime, but u have to somehow rip the fabric of time for this to occur, it's not automatic. Or u can simply assume there are already rips in the fabric of time and space in those points and u can simply step into one of these doorways to enter Temporal Prime and then use its Maelstrom. But remember: there are Immortals watching upon these Time Nexi, and they don't like mortals dabbling with the realities... DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:35:05 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Kogolor notes At 14.20 27/05/97 -0400, you wrote: >>1. If the Kogolor don't have a King, who is then Bifric III (PWA)? > > We only noticed him, along with some other little PWA discrepancies, > after Mischa had completed his work. He decided not to try and make it > fit since some of the ideas in the PWA were radically different from > Mischa's ideas, instead leaving it to individual DMs to decide how to > reconcile these two different views. I support him in this. I have a suggestion: maybe he is the Clanmaster of Kogolor clan, and since the outsiders think the Kogolors are the leaders, then they assumed he is their King. Sounds good? >>3. Religion issue: it is not believable that Kagyar faith has the same >>importance as the church of Frey/Freya (as it is derived from what u wrote). >>IMO Kagyar should have NO MORE followers among the Kogolors while Frey and >>Freya should have much more importance in Kogolors' faith and everyday life >>(they were the first who gave the dwarves help and clerical spells, after >>all, according to HW) > >The Kogolor have no reason to believe that Kagyar abandoned them. So, >some likely cling to the belief in him. When u pray someone and you receive no answer and no spells in a world where clerics can cast spells only when an Immortal is behind them, then i think that the faith cannot last that much long. Therefore i think Kagyar has no more followers in this land >And I didnt catch that reference to Frey and Freyja granting powers to the >Kogolor. Where did you find this tidbit? I will update the religion >section to gel with it, if need be. It's in the HW supplement, i think it's in the History part of their entry in DM's book >4. Artifact: They have a Forge of Power? It's not likely, since it's Kagyar's >relic. > >I don't ever recall seeing this. If you can find the source for me, I'll >try to get an alternative worked up The fact that Kogolors have a FoP is your stuff: it's written in the religion entry IIRC. As for the Forge being Kagyar's artifact, i think it's in GAZ6 but i don't remember it correctly... it could also be in WotI, Immortals' description section... >Um, if anyone thinks this is just becoming me and Mystaros and Thorfinn >talking to each other, I'm free to take it to private email and off the >list proper Ah..uhmm... I am sorry but i have to contradict u on this point: it's not Mystaros u're talking to, it's me! (look at the sign at the end of the letter) :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:37:13 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikos Church DM wrote: > And as for Hell, i think there should be FIVE hells, each one ruled by one > Major Demon that is the counterpart of each Immortal in the Church's > religion. So we won't have only Thanatos to oppose Asterius: certainly he's > the leader as Asterius is for the Good Immortals, but he has also "trusted" > fiends that help him trying to get the people away from the White Light. > I think there should be 5 different hells, like in Chinese mythology (even > though there are much more hells for the chinese): one for Thanatos, one for > Demogorgon, one for Orcus, one for Talitha and one for Ranivorus. This is > the clique of five immortals opposed to the Church of Karameikos IMO... > there could even be an Evil Church worshipping it, the Black Church of Chaos > (or something like this)? > What do u think? > > DM Good idea! IMO all the sinners of the same kind are punished together (with a pain suitable to their sin) in the same hell. For example: 1° hell - "sinners against the body" (killers, suiciders, etc) 2° hell - Traitors 3° hell - Thiefs 4° hell - Sinners of greed 5° hell - Followers of the darkness What do you think? Any ideas about suitable pains for these sinners? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:45:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? On Tue, 27 May 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Hey! Whoa! Settle down Big Guy, don't stir R'lyeh up over this! All right... I think I'll be okay... *deep breath*. :) > I never, ever, ever said I *disliked* Gaz 10, I just felt it was a bit too > lighthearted to fit into my personal campaign scheme; I made it darker, more > Mordorish, so to speak. Interesting. Did you keep Thar as Nosferatu, then? And if so, how did you work out his relationship with his "sponsor" as it were, Prince Morphail? > I loved Gaz 10 for itself as it was... I even worked up another > Beastman land in a similar vein, the Land of Ungri-La, lost under > the Black Mountains of Hule. Ruled by the Grand Poo-Bah Ogre King Ungri-Lor, > with his "beautiful" daughter Ungri-Lee and his twin sons, Jedh and > Bhili-Babh, designed with the most fiendish puns I could concoct (nothing > like Bruce's or Rogar of Moorias, but the worst I could do). Lot's of fun > there... Bhili-Babh, eh? :) "Come listen to a story 'bout a Beastman named Jedh; poor ogre-king, barely kept his fam'ly fed." :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:35:44 -0400 (EDT) From: B1Bard@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] FINALLY! Hey everybody! My webpage is finally up: http://members.aol.com/b1bar d check it out and send feedback! The Brantman B1Bard@aol.com "Their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, "Starship Troopers" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:16:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Morphail follower of Nyx? In a message dated 97-05-28 22:47:49 EDT, Cthulhudrew wrote: << Interesting. Did you keep Thar as Nosferatu, then? And if so, how did you work out his relationship with his "sponsor" as it were, Prince Morphail? >> IMC Alert!!! Actually, Thar grew to be a powerful Nosferatu, turned from the way of Ilneval and became a Disciple of Nyx. He is now a 36th level Orc. Because he became a Nosferatu, he was no longer limited in Shamani and Wokani levels, so he has now risen to Shaman 14, Wicca 6 as well (he picked up the Wokani abilities as a Disciple of Nyx, and lost a few Shamani levels when he left Ilneval for Nyx). IMC he lost control of the Broken Lands in 1006 AC, and went on to conquer the Dwarfgate Mountain tribes, ruling from a new citadel (Drakhold) built in the valley between C'kag, Dast and Xorg. His first goal is to reconquer the Broken Lands, then raid Darokin and Glantri. Thereafter, he is undecided; he feels he has plenty of time, though (he is no longer under the influence of Prince Jaggar, so his desire to destroy Rockhome has cooled somewhat). His forces include no small number of Undead as well as Beastmen; his new symbol, a black claw holding a full silver moon, is seen on Orcish shields from northern Karameikos through Wendar, as he sends his more trusted (and intelligent) minions after long lost artifacts and scrolls (Taymoran materials mostly; he also is forming an alliance with the Shadow Lord). Altogether, Thar is an even greater threat now than he ever was before... and as to his relationship with Morphail, well, before Morphail's conversion to Alphaks (also in 1006 AC), he had little contact with his "minion, and afterward, Nyx severed the tie between them. Now Morphail despises Thar more than just about anything else, as he represents one of his greatest failings... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:43:00 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] Time travel IMC Chronomancy is illegal for mortals and even immortals. Khoronus is the inforcer of this law. Only clerics of time who are on the path to immortality are an exception (they understand the importance). This makes it safe for my campaign. IMC & IMO time travel is too powerful and most immortals cant do it so why let mortals. Make it an immortal law that Chronomancy is illegal and taboo. Not too many know any secrets of Chronomancey but it is often debated in Alphatian and Glantri of the possibilities. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:28:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] More Kogolor notes On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > Um, if anyone thinks this is just becoming me and Mystaros and Thorfinn > talking to each other, I'm free to take it to private email and off the > list proper I dont see a need for that. Personally I enjoy reading this even if I dont always comment on it :) Keep going. Haavard - -- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:35:25 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara this is an excerpt from the tsr webpage about wotc http://www.tsrinc.com/wizards/wizards.html >Q: What are your plans for the ______ product line? >A: We are not making any plans at this time on what products to >emphasize in our promotions and release schedule. We prefer to wait >until the TSR people are on board and involve them in the planning >process. As usual, our perception of customer desires will have a >major impact on these decisions. >Stay on target, >Peter D. Adkison >Janitor, Wizards of the Coast of coarse mr adkison is actually the ceo of wotc from the way it sounds the deal should be completed any day now they have said they will not answer any personal email questions yet they will put some answers on the tsr website eventually is it time to let them (wotc) know our feelings on a "rebirth" of mystara? i know some people believe that its hopeless but id still like to give it a shot everyone has their own ideas on why mystara "died" if we all let them know our ideas then maybe they can find a reason to give it another try i dont want to bother them or harass them by flooding their email boxes but since "...our (wotc) perception of customer desires will have a major impact on these decisions." we should let them know about our desires maybe we could create one email with a bunch of us signing it or maybe it would be more effective if they received many individual emails from those of us who would like to see mystara come back so what is the consensus out there? 1) one email from many people 2) individual emails 3) letters or phone calls 4) wait for now 5) dont bother trying - ---Crip (in search of a leader who shares my goals, but also knows what the hell theyre doing) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:11:18 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara On Thu, 29 May 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: > this is an excerpt from the tsr webpage about wotc > http://www.tsrinc.com/wizards/wizards.html > > >Stay on target, > >Peter D. Adkison > >Janitor, Wizards of the Coast > > so what is the consensus out there? > > 1) one email from many people > 2) individual emails > 3) letters or phone calls > 4) wait for now > 5) dont bother trying > OK, I'd wait until WotC actually owns TSR first, after all there's no point in bothering them until the sale goes through and they get on there feet. WotC isn't going to really want to risk ressurecting a product line that might lose them money after such a large purchase. Also I think multiple E-mails would be best instead of one large one. While multiple E-mails are more convenient for them to read, many E-mails would appear to be a larger group. Figure it this way, if one E-mail goes they assume everyone signed it who was interested. If 100 E-mails go they assume 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100 bothered to actually send an E-mail to them. Also letters would be a good idea either instead of or in addition to E-mail since it just kind of seems more personal and professional, also it shows more effort and interest to actually write it down and send it. I wouldn't write in why we think TSR cancelled Mystara, instead write in why WotC should revive it. If we tell them all the good things we liked about Mystara we can show them that there really is reason to produce it again. Especially since we need to convince them that Mystara is worth reviving with Forgotten Realms still in production. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:41:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] TSR & SPI & WotC... Form: Memo Text: (58 lines follow) <> WotC would hardly be the first people to do so. Remember the board-wargaming industry? It's fallen by the wayside thanks to both computers and a general lack of interest in things military since the end of the cold war (besides, it's more interesting to be a simulated Apache pilot in a cockpit than to move Apache troops around a board simulating terrain, but I digress...) TSR bought SPI. who was, at the time, the most prolific wargame-producer in America. SPI and Avalon Hill were competing neck-&-neck, and although Avalon Hill had the sales edge, SPI was reknowned for sophistication and diversity, as well as the intellectual quality of the people working there (Jim Dunnigan springs immediately to mind...) Avalon Hill branched out into computers games, then an up and coming technology, and is still alive today, albeit with a limited, hard-core audience. SPI's top-heavy company was bought by then-upstart TSR and in TSR's purge of administrative wieght, the few good designers left on board jumped ship. Add to that the fact that in the two to five years immediately before TSR bought SPI, all SPI had produced were lower-quality reduxes of their previous highly-acclaimed successes, and TSR was buying their way into a bad deal where the creative muscle of the company was missing, and it was relying on brand name alone to sell product. Several relatively-new companies were also cutting into SPI's profit share with solid game systems that relied as much on flashy presentation as they did on quality gamesmanship. GDW was the leader of this charge, but there were others who have since lagged off after an initial flash to fill the loss of SPI. Fast forward to 1997: Up-and-coming WotC, a company whose biggest success lies in being the first major producer of a genre-busting game, spawning a highly-profitable industry rife with imitators, of both good and bad quality (TSR's first RPG?) After a few years of success, WotC decides to branch out, after initial in-house failures (how many people actually spent money on Everway?). TSR, a once-thriving company of intelligent, well-designed products has brand-name appeal and little else, its recent products having been plagued by poor design, editing, and playability, and, worst of all, erratic shipping. TSR's market share has slowly been chewed into by companies producing solid game systems that relied as much on flashy presentation as they did on quality gamesmanship (White Wolf, FASA) as well as some others that may or may not survive (think of Last Unicorn games as a latter day 3M for comparison). Seeing the brand-name appeal, WotC dives in after TSR. What they get, is a brain-dead company who's brand-name appeal is even headed south. FASA and White Wolf, the latter-day Avalon Hill's of the RPG industry, continue to cater to their devoted audiences with quality products and some diversity (think of Mechwarrior as the equivalent of AH's SSI partnership.) Realizing that they've aquired a dog, WotC leaves TSR to whither on the vine, not unlike TSR did to SPI so many years ago, ressurecting the brand name more for nastalgia releases than anything else (think Air War). just my 2c Brant Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:29:33 -0700 (PDT) From: David Melik Subject: Re: question about Odin's servants (was [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) At 12:22 AM 5/26/97 +0200, you wrote: >forgot to mention Hugin and Munin. Any other way to spell the names of >Odins ravens? the u is pronounced as the 'oo' in 'food.' The i is >pronounced an in Ronin. couldn't think of better example offhand. > Well, I've seen them with two n's on the end... >anything else? > yeah, what about "einherjar"... that looks like a tough one! David Melik darwin@nwinfo.net Humankind "Ever was/Will be ever/Twisting/Turning/Through the never"--James Hetfield ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:41:45 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Order of the White Drake Hey guys, i'm sure i've heard it before, but i'm not able to find the reference you're quoting in DotE. Where exactly is it? And have u got any more info on this phantomatic order? Thanx again DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:40:08 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara At 12.35 29/05/97 -0400, you wrote: >is it time to let them (wotc) know our feelings on a "rebirth" of mystara? >i know some people believe that its hopeless but id still like to give it a >shot >everyone has their own ideas on why mystara "died" >if we all let them know our ideas then maybe they can find a reason to give it >another try Do you think it's that wise to raise a distinguished dead from the tomb? Mystara died as a well developed campaign: ok, the last products (notably Glantri:KoM and the Survival Kits, along with Joshuan Almanac) were not that good, but TSR stopped the line before any further damage could be done. As far as we're concerned, we all remember Mystara as the BEST campaign setting ever. So i ask you again: do you really want to see it resurrected in the hands of the WotC, knowing (as we all know) what WotC did to Ars Magica? Do you really want to see what kind of corpse will be reanimated by these "would be Herbert West"? There are things better left untouched, and i think that maybe Mystara is one of these things. I prefer having it dead, but retaining a good memory of it, than to see it walk around as a dumb zombie, bumping in every corner and always on the verge of falling. If WotC could assure me they will revive Mystara leaving it in the capable hands of its fathers (Bruce Heard, Aaron Allston, Ann Dupuis and i'd add Ken Rolston too), i would be the happiest person in the world (and u too, i suspect), but if they cannot assure me this, than i'm not willing to take the risk of seeing a "Pet Sematary" staged in our favourite campaign world... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:42:04 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] Order of the White Drake It's in one of those history/timeline things - series of year-dated entries. Look for an entry around 950. In the big book. > Hey guys, i'm sure i've heard it before, but i'm not able to find the >reference you're quoting in DotE. Where exactly is it? > And have u got any more info on this phantomatic order? >Thanx again > >DM > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 07:06:12 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara > So i ask you again: do you really want to see it resurrected in the hands > of the WotC, knowing (as we all know) what WotC did to Ars Magica? Do you > really want to see what kind of corpse will be reanimated by these "would be > Herbert West"? What exactly did they do to Ars Magica, other than drop it before getting it to market? (of course, that could be what you mean.) Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:21:06 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR & SPI & WotC... In a message dated 97-05-29 22:32:15 EDT, Brant wrote: <> Gee, thanks anyway... Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:21:12 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles Following the material I had posted here recently (Ages of Wisdom), I was trying to find historical Chinese titles of nobility that I could adapt to a fantasy setting. I was hoping someone here could help me out. Here is what I found so far: Apparently, RW Chinese were using titles of nobility roughly comparable to those used in Europe, although these had more to do with the number of generations through which the titles were allowed to be inherited. Thus, the pedigrees of the descendants of Confucius were said to go back 2,500 years. (Source: Titles, How the King became His Majesty, by L.G. Pine; 1992 Barnes & Nobles). According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and Princes. I order to adapt this to the nobility rankings suggested in the Ages of Wisdom, you could do the following: Paak = Count, Nan = Knight. A lesser title was also used for "deputies" (Tsung), which could be substituted to Viscount. Originally, a Viscount was merely the deputy of a Count. It's only later that the office of a Viscount became a hereditary title. Of course, this leaves a few titles without pseudo-Chinese equivalents. Does anyone have any info on what a Gd Duke would be referred to in a Chinese context? Ditto Princes. These titles may not exist at all, so does anyone here speak Chinese well enough to make up ad hoc equivalents for a fantasy setting? Many Thanks. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:21:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Order of the White Drake In a message dated 97-05-30 08:09:14 EDT, you write: << Hey guys, i'm sure i've heard it before, but i'm not able to find the reference you're quoting in DotE. Where exactly is it? And have u got any more info on this phantomatic order? Thanx again DM >> The ONLY reference to the Order of the White Drake(s), save in module B3, was the DotE reference. Page 7 of the DM's Sourcebook: "AC 960... It takes Thyatis two full years to reclaim lost territories on the Isle ofDawn. All known knights of the Order of the White Drake are captured and executed. Any survivors from the underground are later taken into the Retebius Air Fleet and the Knights of the Air and are fervently anti-Thyatian". Now, originally (and officially) Retebius was an Alphatian Cleric who fought for Thyatis during their rebellion 1000 years ago... riding on the back of a White Dragon Book two, Player's Guide to Thyatis). So it could be surmised that the OWD was actually Alphatian, esp. because White Dragons would be a lot more common far to the north, where lies Alphatia. But IMOC I made the OWD a Hattian organization that was based on the northern IoD (modern Helskir and Westrourke); during the War of '59 they allied with the Alphatians, and thus when their territories were retaken, the Thyatians had them executed for treason (executing opposing soldiers must be against some sort of convention... should there be a "Geneva Convention" for the Known world)? Also, IMO it would be difficult for any Alphatians to enter into the Knights of the Air or the Retebius Air Corps; after all, they ALWAYS fought against Thyatis; at least Hattians would have some reasons to remain in the Empire... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:28:36 EDT From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR & SPI & WotC... On Thu, 29 May 1997 15:41:00 -0500 "GUILLORY: BRANT" >Fast forward to 1997: Up-and-coming WotC, a company whose biggest success >lies in being the first major producer of a genre-busting game, spawning a >highly-profitable industry rife with imitators, of both good and bad quality >(TSR's first RPG?) >After a few years of success, WotC decides to branch out, after initial >in-house failures (how many people actually spent money on Everway?). TSR, >a once-thriving company of intelligent, well-designed products has >brand-name appeal and little else, its recent products having been plagued >by poor design, editing, and playability, and, worst of all, erratic shipping. I really have to disagree with a couple points here. Many of the latest products TSR has made for their AD&D line are quite frankly excellent, much better in fact than anything they had ever done in the past (two that stick out in my mind are the NIght Below Underdark campaign and the Rod of Seven Parts boxed set, not to mention Dragon Mountain, Labyrinth of Madness, I could go on and on...) If your talking about Mystara stuff you're probably right, although Mark of Amber was excellent and a good value, and recall some of the dogs made in the old days (think IM1-3, M4, X1). I don't know about the poor shipping part, but they are definitely capable of putting out the best or products (I mean, have you gone back to read G123 lately? Talk about bare bones and being short on detail! Compare it to some of the stuff I mentioned above!) Nicholas nbamba@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:48:32 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara > Do you think it's that wise to raise a distinguished dead from the tomb? > So i ask you again: do you really want to see it resurrected in the hands > of the WotC, knowing (as we all know) what WotC did to Ars Magica? Do you > really want to see what kind of corpse will be reanimated by these "would be > Herbert West"? it dont think it could be "unwise" because nothing bad could come out of it many people on this list believe the ad&d mystara products were crap they didnt take anything away from my perception of mystara as a whole id love mystara even if they came out with 1000 adventures that couldnt top the ad&d glantri one ("hello, i am criptonite, 10th level wizard, what is your level, my halfling friend? i am a 9th level thief. how many hp do you have, kind human?") even if the wotc stuff did turn out to be crap we would ignore it when it comes to our overall thoughts on "the world of mystara" so if i had the choice id like to take the chance that something good comes out of them because i believe theres nothing to lose > If WotC could assure me they will revive Mystara leaving it in the capable > hands of its fathers (Bruce Heard, Aaron Allston, Ann Dupuis and i'd add Ken > Rolston too), i would be the happiest person in the world (and u too, i > suspect), but if they cannot assure me this, than i'm not willing to take > the risk of seeing a "Pet Sematary" staged in our favourite campaign world... > > > DM this is on the tsr webpage (http://www.tsrinc.com) it was written by a tsr employee "They (wotc) don't just want the AD&D trademarks and intellectual property, they want the TSR staff members that are responsible for creating that product. To us at TSR, we see this as AD&D being directed by gamers again." when youre talking mystara youre talking about the people you mentioned if mystara came back i think wotc would want those people working on it - --- -- -- Crip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:21:52 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara > From: starhawk@menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu (StarHawk) > OK, I'd wait until WotC actually owns TSR first, after all there's no point > in bothering them until the sale goes through and they get on there feet. i agree it seems like they are being flooded with email already > Also I think multiple E-mails would be best instead of one large one. > While multiple E-mails are more convenient for them to read, many E-mails > would appear to be a larger group. Figure it this way, if one E-mail goes > they assume everyone signed it who was interested. If 100 E-mails go they > assume 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100 bothered to actually send an E-mail to them. > Also letters would be a good idea either instead of or in addition to > E-mail since it just kind of seems more personal and professional, also it > shows more effort and interest to actually write it down and send it. letters are definatly a good idea it would show our effort plus it would give them something material something to hold in their hands i think when the time comes ill send an email followed by a letter to show them my interest > I wouldn't write in why we think TSR cancelled Mystara, instead write in > why WotC should revive it. If we tell them all the good things we liked > about Mystara we can show them that there really is reason to produce it > again. Especially since we need to convince them that Mystara is worth > reviving with Forgotten Realms still in production. if they were going to "revive" a world im sure they would like to know why it didnt work the first time and who knows better than us the customers id like to let them know the good and bad points they want to make money so id tell them how i think they could they make money - we get the product we want its mutually beneficial that way - --- -- -- Crip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:16:09 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara At 14:11 29-05-97 -0400, StarHawk wrote: > > >On Thu, 29 May 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: > >> this is an excerpt from the tsr webpage about wotc >> http://www.tsrinc.com/wizards/wizards.html >> >> >Stay on target, >> >Peter D. Adkison >> >Janitor, Wizards of the Coast >> >> so what is the consensus out there? >> >> 1) one email from many people >> 2) individual emails >> 3) letters or phone calls >> 4) wait for now >> 5) dont bother trying >> > >OK, I'd wait until WotC actually owns TSR first, after all there's no >point in bothering them until the sale goes through and they get on there >feet. WotC isn't going to really want to risk ressurecting a product line >that might lose them money after such a large purchase. >Also I think multiple E-mails would be best instead of one large one. >While multiple E-mails are more convenient for them to read, many E-mails >would appear to be a larger group. Figure it this way, if one E-mail goes >they assume everyone signed it who was interested. If 100 E-mails go they >assume 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100 bothered to actually send an E-mail to >them. >Also letters would be a good idea either instead of or in addition to >E-mail since it just kind of seems more personal and professional, also it >shows more effort and interest to actually write it down and send it. > >I wouldn't write in why we think TSR cancelled Mystara, instead write in >why WotC should revive it. If we tell them all the good things we liked >about Mystara we can show them that there really is reason to produce it >again. Especially since we need to convince them that Mystara is worth >reviving with Forgotten Realms still in production. And, ofcourse, Bruce could help us as well... :) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:14:42 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara At 12:35 29-05-97 -0400, you wrote: >this is an excerpt from the tsr webpage about wotc >http://www.tsrinc.com/wizards/wizards.html > >>Q: What are your plans for the ______ product line? >>A: We are not making any plans at this time on what products to >>emphasize in our promotions and release schedule. We prefer to wait >>until the TSR people are on board and involve them in the planning >>process. As usual, our perception of customer desires will have a >>major impact on these decisions. > >>Stay on target, >>Peter D. Adkison >>Janitor, Wizards of the Coast > >of coarse mr adkison is actually the ceo of wotc >from the way it sounds the deal should be completed any day now >they have said they will not answer any personal email questions yet >they will put some answers on the tsr website eventually >is it time to let them (wotc) know our feelings on a "rebirth" of mystara? >i know some people believe that its hopeless >but id still like to give it a shot >everyone has their own ideas on why mystara "died" >if we all let them know our ideas >then maybe they can find a reason to give it another try > >i dont want to bother them or harass them by flooding their email boxes >but since "...our (wotc) perception of customer desires will have a major >impact >on these decisions." >we should let them know about our desires >maybe we could create one email with a bunch of us signing it >or maybe it would be more effective if they received many individual emails >from those of us who would like to see mystara come back > >so what is the consensus out there? > >1) one email from many people >2) individual emails >3) letters or phone calls >4) wait for now >5) dont bother trying > > >---Crip >(in search of a leader who shares my goals, but also knows what the hell >theyre doing) We should try, and if we do we should wait till they are finished and then we should send one email from all of us, and if they don't reply, then we will have to send individual emails and letters/phonecalls and if that doesn't work, we shouldn't bother... So: 4,1,2/3,5 :) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles I'll try to help here, but I don't have any reference material with me, so all the stuff is off top of my head. Nor am I that good at Chinese history, probably only about low Jr. High level. TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > Apparently, RW Chinese were using titles of nobility roughly comparable to > those used in Europe, although these had more to do with the number of > generations through which the titles were allowed to be inherited. Thus, the > pedigrees of the descendants of Confucius were said to go back 2,500 years. Not quite sure what you meant here. AFAIK Confucius never had title of nobility of any kind. > According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa > ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and > Princes. Those are more commonly translated into Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, and Baron. Earl in dictionary is generally translated as an English Paak, and Baronet is generally translated to be lower rank than Nan. The Chinese translation of that book seems to be based on Cantonese instead of Mandarian. But I don't have a dictionary that gives English transliteration, so I can't be sure. I'm not sure of this but I think Tze and Nan might not existed until Ching Dynasty (the last one). And the titles doesn't quite work the same way as in western counterpart. It is not the duke control over several count who each control several barons who each has the law enforcement power over his land. Often the title is just a title, with no power associated to it. The Emperor just grant them out to people who done service for him, which happen most often when he comes to power or after a major war (or at the start of a dynasty, which have both of the above). The title could come with a grant of land, but the noble just own the property of that area of land but generally don't have law enforcement power upon it. The power of law is held by various levels of magistrates, who achieve their position through examinations and promotions (ideally, in less enlighten time, it is through bribry and other means). The system of examination for government post is set up at least by the time of Tang Dynasty, and might even be earlier. Also, I don't think nobility title is generally heritatory, but I could be wrong on that. Sometime the title of King, "Wong", is given out and that could come with law enforcement power over an area of land, generally away from the capital near the border, as he going to have a decent amount of military power too... > Of course, this leaves a few titles without pseudo-Chinese equivalents. > Does anyone have any info on what a Gd Duke would be referred to in a Chinese > context? Ditto Princes. These titles may not exist at all, so does anyone > here speak Chinese well enough to make up ad hoc equivalents for a fantasy > setting? Well, one thing is Chinese titles changes through out the dynasty. I'm pretty sure during Eun Dynasty (Mongols), the nobility titles were quite different. And with the function of nobility is different between Chinese and the West, the translation is just the best match between similar terms. Grand Duke can be translated to Da-Koong (Big Duke). Western prince is translated into "Wong Tzu" (King Son), however, I don't think that term is generally used by Chinese, as prince is son of the Emperior. The crown prince is called "Tai Tzu" and I can't quite remember what are the other prince is called. I think they generally just refer to by their title, which is equivlent to King. Military titles are often also given out by the Emperor, and titles generally come with a very flowery name, such as "Din Kuo Koong" (Duke who anchor the country), "Ping Shi How" (Marquis who stabilized the west), "Shao Ewo How" (Marquis who is relaxing, definatly a title without any power). The full name of those title could be over twenty characters long. Oh, in case you need it princess is "Koong Chou". Husband of Princess is "Phou Ma". If you need any other info on Chinese related stuff, feel free to contact me through private e-mail at scy2g@virginia.edu. John Yu ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #93 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #94 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, June 3 1997 Volume 02 : Number 094 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles I'll try to help here, but I don't have any reference material with me, so all the stuff is off top of my head. Nor am I that good at Chinese history, probably only about low Jr. High level. TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > Apparently, RW Chinese were using titles of nobility roughly comparable to > those used in Europe, although these had more to do with the number of > generations through which the titles were allowed to be inherited. Thus, the > pedigrees of the descendants of Confucius were said to go back 2,500 years. Not quite sure what you meant here. AFAIK Confucius never had title of nobility of any kind. > According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa > ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and > Princes. Those are more commonly translated into Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, and Baron. Earl in dictionary is generally translated as an English Paak, and Baronet is generally translated to be lower rank than Nan. The Chinese translation of that book seems to be based on Cantonese instead of Mandarian. But I don't have a dictionary that gives English transliteration, so I can't be sure. I'm not sure of this but I think Tze and Nan might not existed until Ching Dynasty (the last one). And the titles doesn't quite work the same way as in western counterpart. It is not the duke control over several count who each control several barons who each has the law enforcement power over his land. Often the title is just a title, with no power associated to it. The Emperor just grant them out to people who done service for him, which happen most often when he comes to power or after a major war (or at the start of a dynasty, which have both of the above). The title could come with a grant of land, but the noble just own the property of that area of land but generally don't have law enforcement power upon it. The power of law is held by various levels of magistrates, who achieve their position through examinations and promotions (ideally, in less enlighten time, it is through bribry and other means). The system of examination for government post is set up at least by the time of Tang Dynasty, and might even be earlier. Also, I don't think nobility title is generally heritatory, but I could be wrong on that. Sometime the title of King, "Wong", is given out and that could come with law enforcement power over an area of land, generally away from the capital near the border, as he going to have a decent amount of military power too... > Of course, this leaves a few titles without pseudo-Chinese equivalents. > Does anyone have any info on what a Gd Duke would be referred to in a Chinese > context? Ditto Princes. These titles may not exist at all, so does anyone > here speak Chinese well enough to make up ad hoc equivalents for a fantasy > setting? Well, one thing is Chinese titles changes through out the dynasty. I'm pretty sure during Eun Dynasty (Mongols), the nobility titles were quite different. And with the function of nobility is different between Chinese and the West, the translation is just the best match between similar terms. Grand Duke can be translated to Da-Koong (Big Duke). Western prince is translated into "Wong Tzu" (King Son), however, I don't think that term is generally used by Chinese, as prince is son of the Emperior. The crown prince is called "Tai Tzu" and I can't quite remember what are the other prince is called. I think they generally just refer to by their title, which is equivlent to King. Military titles are often also given out by the Emperor, and titles generally come with a very flowery name, such as "Din Kuo Koong" (Duke who anchor the country), "Ping Shi How" (Marquis who stabilized the west), "Shao Ewo How" (Marquis who is relaxing, definatly a title without any power). The full name of those title could be over twenty characters long. Oh, in case you need it princess is "Koong Chou". Husband of Princess is "Phou Ma". If you need any other info on Chinese related stuff, feel free to contact me through private e-mail at scy2g@virginia.edu. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles I'll try to help here, but I don't have any reference material with me, so all the stuff is off top of my head. Nor am I that good at Chinese history, probably only about low Jr. High level. TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > Apparently, RW Chinese were using titles of nobility roughly comparable to > those used in Europe, although these had more to do with the number of > generations through which the titles were allowed to be inherited. Thus, the > pedigrees of the descendants of Confucius were said to go back 2,500 years. Not quite sure what you meant here. AFAIK Confucius never had title of nobility of any kind. > According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa > ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and > Princes. Those are more commonly translated into Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, and Baron. Earl in dictionary is generally translated as an English Paak, and Baronet is generally translated to be lower rank than Nan. The Chinese translation of that book seems to be based on Cantonese instead of Mandarian. But I don't have a dictionary that gives English transliteration, so I can't be sure. I'm not sure of this but I think Tze and Nan might not existed until Ching Dynasty (the last one). And the titles doesn't quite work the same way as in western counterpart. It is not the duke control over several count who each control several barons who each has the law enforcement power over his land. Often the title is just a title, with no power associated to it. The Emperor just grant them out to people who done service for him, which happen most often when he comes to power or after a major war (or at the start of a dynasty, which have both of the above). The title could come with a grant of land, but the noble just own the property of that area of land but generally don't have law enforcement power upon it. The power of law is held by various levels of magistrates, who achieve their position through examinations and promotions (ideally, in less enlighten time, it is through bribry and other means). The system of examination for government post is set up at least by the time of Tang Dynasty, and might even be earlier. Also, I don't think nobility title is generally heritatory, but I could be wrong on that. Sometime the title of King, "Wong", is given out and that could come with law enforcement power over an area of land, generally away from the capital near the border, as he going to have a decent amount of military power too... > Of course, this leaves a few titles without pseudo-Chinese equivalents. > Does anyone have any info on what a Gd Duke would be referred to in a Chinese > context? Ditto Princes. These titles may not exist at all, so does anyone > here speak Chinese well enough to make up ad hoc equivalents for a fantasy > setting? Well, one thing is Chinese titles changes through out the dynasty. I'm pretty sure during Eun Dynasty (Mongols), the nobility titles were quite different. And with the function of nobility is different between Chinese and the West, the translation is just the best match between similar terms. Grand Duke can be translated to Da-Koong (Big Duke). Western prince is translated into "Wong Tzu" (King Son), however, I don't think that term is generally used by Chinese, as prince is son of the Emperior. The crown prince is called "Tai Tzu" and I can't quite remember what are the other prince is called. I think they generally just refer to by their title, which is equivlent to King. Military titles are often also given out by the Emperor, and titles generally come with a very flowery name, such as "Din Kuo Koong" (Duke who anchor the country), "Ping Shi How" (Marquis who stabilized the west), "Shao Ewo How" (Marquis who is relaxing, definatly a title without any power). The full name of those title could be over twenty characters long. Oh, in case you need it princess is "Koong Chou". Husband of Princess is "Phou Ma". If you need any other info on Chinese related stuff, feel free to contact me through private e-mail at scy2g@virginia.edu. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles I'll try to help here, but I don't have any reference material with me, so all the stuff is off top of my head. Nor am I that good at Chinese history, probably only about low Jr. High level. TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > Apparently, RW Chinese were using titles of nobility roughly comparable to > those used in Europe, although these had more to do with the number of > generations through which the titles were allowed to be inherited. Thus, the > pedigrees of the descendants of Confucius were said to go back 2,500 years. Not quite sure what you meant here. AFAIK Confucius never had title of nobility of any kind. > According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa > ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and > Princes. Those are more commonly translated into Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, and Baron. Earl in dictionary is generally translated as an English Paak, and Baronet is generally translated to be lower rank than Nan. The Chinese translation of that book seems to be based on Cantonese instead of Mandarian. But I don't have a dictionary that gives English transliteration, so I can't be sure. I'm not sure of this but I think Tze and Nan might not existed until Ching Dynasty (the last one). And the titles doesn't quite work the same way as in western counterpart. It is not the duke control over several count who each control several barons who each has the law enforcement power over his land. Often the title is just a title, with no power associated to it. The Emperor just grant them out to people who done service for him, which happen most often when he comes to power or after a major war (or at the start of a dynasty, which have both of the above). The title could come with a grant of land, but the noble just own the property of that area of land but generally don't have law enforcement power upon it. The power of law is held by various levels of magistrates, who achieve their position through examinations and promotions (ideally, in less enlighten time, it is through bribry and other means). The system of examination for government post is set up at least by the time of Tang Dynasty, and might even be earlier. Also, I don't think nobility title is generally heritatory, but I could be wrong on that. Sometime the title of King, "Wong", is given out and that could come with law enforcement power over an area of land, generally away from the capital near the border, as he going to have a decent amount of military power too... > Of course, this leaves a few titles without pseudo-Chinese equivalents. > Does anyone have any info on what a Gd Duke would be referred to in a Chinese > context? Ditto Princes. These titles may not exist at all, so does anyone > here speak Chinese well enough to make up ad hoc equivalents for a fantasy > setting? Well, one thing is Chinese titles changes through out the dynasty. I'm pretty sure during Eun Dynasty (Mongols), the nobility titles were quite different. And with the function of nobility is different between Chinese and the West, the translation is just the best match between similar terms. Grand Duke can be translated to Da-Koong (Big Duke). Western prince is translated into "Wong Tzu" (King Son), however, I don't think that term is generally used by Chinese, as prince is son of the Emperior. The crown prince is called "Tai Tzu" and I can't quite remember what are the other prince is called. I think they generally just refer to by their title, which is equivlent to King. Military titles are often also given out by the Emperor, and titles generally come with a very flowery name, such as "Din Kuo Koong" (Duke who anchor the country), "Ping Shi How" (Marquis who stabilized the west), "Shao Ewo How" (Marquis who is relaxing, definatly a title without any power). The full name of those title could be over twenty characters long. Oh, in case you need it princess is "Koong Chou". Husband of Princess is "Phou Ma". If you need any other info on Chinese related stuff, feel free to contact me through private e-mail at scy2g@virginia.edu. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles I'll try to help here, but I don't have any reference material with me, so all the stuff is off top of my head. Nor am I that good at Chinese history, probably only about low Jr. High level. TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > Apparently, RW Chinese were using titles of nobility roughly comparable to > those used in Europe, although these had more to do with the number of > generations through which the titles were allowed to be inherited. Thus, the > pedigrees of the descendants of Confucius were said to go back 2,500 years. Not quite sure what you meant here. AFAIK Confucius never had title of nobility of any kind. > According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa > ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and > Princes. Those are more commonly translated into Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, and Baron. Earl in dictionary is generally translated as an English Paak, and Baronet is generally translated to be lower rank than Nan. The Chinese translation of that book seems to be based on Cantonese instead of Mandarian. But I don't have a dictionary that gives English transliteration, so I can't be sure. I'm not sure of this but I think Tze and Nan might not existed until Ching Dynasty (the last one). And the titles doesn't quite work the same way as in western counterpart. It is not the duke control over several count who each control several barons who each has the law enforcement power over his land. Often the title is just a title, with no power associated to it. The Emperor just grant them out to people who done service for him, which happen most often when he comes to power or after a major war (or at the start of a dynasty, which have both of the above). The title could come with a grant of land, but the noble just own the property of that area of land but generally don't have law enforcement power upon it. The power of law is held by various levels of magistrates, who achieve their position through examinations and promotions (ideally, in less enlighten time, it is through bribry and other means). The system of examination for government post is set up at least by the time of Tang Dynasty, and might even be earlier. Also, I don't think nobility title is generally heritatory, but I could be wrong on that. Sometime the title of King, "Wong", is given out and that could come with law enforcement power over an area of land, generally away from the capital near the border, as he going to have a decent amount of military power too... > Of course, this leaves a few titles without pseudo-Chinese equivalents. > Does anyone have any info on what a Gd Duke would be referred to in a Chinese > context? Ditto Princes. These titles may not exist at all, so does anyone > here speak Chinese well enough to make up ad hoc equivalents for a fantasy > setting? Well, one thing is Chinese titles changes through out the dynasty. I'm pretty sure during Eun Dynasty (Mongols), the nobility titles were quite different. And with the function of nobility is different between Chinese and the West, the translation is just the best match between similar terms. Grand Duke can be translated to Da-Koong (Big Duke). Western prince is translated into "Wong Tzu" (King Son), however, I don't think that term is generally used by Chinese, as prince is son of the Emperior. The crown prince is called "Tai Tzu" and I can't quite remember what are the other prince is called. I think they generally just refer to by their title, which is equivlent to King. Military titles are often also given out by the Emperor, and titles generally come with a very flowery name, such as "Din Kuo Koong" (Duke who anchor the country), "Ping Shi How" (Marquis who stabilized the west), "Shao Ewo How" (Marquis who is relaxing, definatly a title without any power). The full name of those title could be over twenty characters long. Oh, in case you need it princess is "Koong Chou". Husband of Princess is "Phou Ma". If you need any other info on Chinese related stuff, feel free to contact me through private e-mail at scy2g@virginia.edu. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles I'll try to help here, but I don't have any reference material with me, so all the stuff is off top of my head. Nor am I that good at Chinese history, probably only about low Jr. High level. TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > Apparently, RW Chinese were using titles of nobility roughly comparable to > those used in Europe, although these had more to do with the number of > generations through which the titles were allowed to be inherited. Thus, the > pedigrees of the descendants of Confucius were said to go back 2,500 years. Not quite sure what you meant here. AFAIK Confucius never had title of nobility of any kind. > According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa > ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and > Princes. Those are more commonly translated into Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, and Baron. Earl in dictionary is generally translated as an English Paak, and Baronet is generally translated to be lower rank than Nan. The Chinese translation of that book seems to be based on Cantonese instead of Mandarian. But I don't have a dictionary that gives English transliteration, so I can't be sure. I'm not sure of this but I think Tze and Nan might not existed until Ching Dynasty (the last one). And the titles doesn't quite work the same way as in western counterpart. It is not the duke control over several count who each control several barons who each has the law enforcement power over his land. Often the title is just a title, with no power associated to it. The Emperor just grant them out to people who done service for him, which happen most often when he comes to power or after a major war (or at the start of a dynasty, which have both of the above). The title could come with a grant of land, but the noble just own the property of that area of land but generally don't have law enforcement power upon it. The power of law is held by various levels of magistrates, who achieve their position through examinations and promotions (ideally, in less enlighten time, it is through bribry and other means). The system of examination for government post is set up at least by the time of Tang Dynasty, and might even be earlier. Also, I don't think nobility title is generally heritatory, but I could be wrong on that. Sometime the title of King, "Wong", is given out and that could come with law enforcement power over an area of land, generally away from the capital near the border, as he going to have a decent amount of military power too... > Of course, this leaves a few titles without pseudo-Chinese equivalents. > Does anyone have any info on what a Gd Duke would be referred to in a Chinese > context? Ditto Princes. These titles may not exist at all, so does anyone > here speak Chinese well enough to make up ad hoc equivalents for a fantasy > setting? Well, one thing is Chinese titles changes through out the dynasty. I'm pretty sure during Eun Dynasty (Mongols), the nobility titles were quite different. And with the function of nobility is different between Chinese and the West, the translation is just the best match between similar terms. Grand Duke can be translated to Da-Koong (Big Duke). Western prince is translated into "Wong Tzu" (King Son), however, I don't think that term is generally used by Chinese, as prince is son of the Emperior. The crown prince is called "Tai Tzu" and I can't quite remember what are the other prince is called. I think they generally just refer to by their title, which is equivlent to King. Military titles are often also given out by the Emperor, and titles generally come with a very flowery name, such as "Din Kuo Koong" (Duke who anchor the country), "Ping Shi How" (Marquis who stabilized the west), "Shao Ewo How" (Marquis who is relaxing, definatly a title without any power). The full name of those title could be over twenty characters long. Oh, in case you need it princess is "Koong Chou". Husband of Princess is "Phou Ma". If you need any other info on Chinese related stuff, feel free to contact me through private e-mail at scy2g@virginia.edu. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles I'll try to help here, but I don't have any reference material with me, so all the stuff is off top of my head. Nor am I that good at Chinese history, probably only about low Jr. High level. TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > Apparently, RW Chinese were using titles of nobility roughly comparable to > those used in Europe, although these had more to do with the number of > generations through which the titles were allowed to be inherited. Thus, the > pedigrees of the descendants of Confucius were said to go back 2,500 years. Not quite sure what you meant here. AFAIK Confucius never had title of nobility of any kind. > According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa > ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and > Princes. Those are more commonly translated into Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, and Baron. Earl in dictionary is generally translated as an English Paak, and Baronet is generally translated to be lower rank than Nan. The Chinese translation of that book seems to be based on Cantonese instead of Mandarian. But I don't have a dictionary that gives English transliteration, so I can't be sure. I'm not sure of this but I think Tze and Nan might not existed until Ching Dynasty (the last one). And the titles doesn't quite work the same way as in western counterpart. It is not the duke control over several count who each control several barons who each has the law enforcement power over his land. Often the title is just a title, with no power associated to it. The Emperor just grant them out to people who done service for him, which happen most often when he comes to power or after a major war (or at the start of a dynasty, which have both of the above). The title could come with a grant of land, but the noble just own the property of that area of land but generally don't have law enforcement power upon it. The power of law is held by various levels of magistrates, who achieve their position through examinations and promotions (ideally, in less enlighten time, it is through bribry and other means). The system of examination for government post is set up at least by the time of Tang Dynasty, and might even be earlier. Also, I don't think nobility title is generally heritatory, but I could be wrong on that. Sometime the title of King, "Wong", is given out and that could come with law enforcement power over an area of land, generally away from the capital near the border, as he going to have a decent amount of military power too... > Of course, this leaves a few titles without pseudo-Chinese equivalents. > Does anyone have any info on what a Gd Duke would be referred to in a Chinese > context? Ditto Princes. These titles may not exist at all, so does anyone > here speak Chinese well enough to make up ad hoc equivalents for a fantasy > setting? Well, one thing is Chinese titles changes through out the dynasty. I'm pretty sure during Eun Dynasty (Mongols), the nobility titles were quite different. And with the function of nobility is different between Chinese and the West, the translation is just the best match between similar terms. Grand Duke can be translated to Da-Koong (Big Duke). Western prince is translated into "Wong Tzu" (King Son), however, I don't think that term is generally used by Chinese, as prince is son of the Emperior. The crown prince is called "Tai Tzu" and I can't quite remember what are the other prince is called. I think they generally just refer to by their title, which is equivlent to King. Military titles are often also given out by the Emperor, and titles generally come with a very flowery name, such as "Din Kuo Koong" (Duke who anchor the country), "Ping Shi How" (Marquis who stabilized the west), "Shao Ewo How" (Marquis who is relaxing, definatly a title without any power). The full name of those title could be over twenty characters long. Oh, in case you need it princess is "Koong Chou". Husband of Princess is "Phou Ma". If you need any other info on Chinese related stuff, feel free to contact me through private e-mail at scy2g@virginia.edu. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:06:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Church of Thyatis (was re: Church of Karameikos) In a message dated 97-05-24 11:48:14 EDT, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: << BTW: Should Ixion be known as Ixion in Thyatis?>> Sure, why not? No name change would be necessary unless Ixion is widely known under that name as a foe of Thyatis or a patron of an enemy of Thyatis. And, although he was indeed hostile to Thyatis in WotI, I don't think that fact is widely known among mortals. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:25:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles Have no idea why my message was posted 6 times. Sorry. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 19:02:30 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles In a message dated 97-05-31 04:19:55 EDT, you write: >> According to the same source we end up with Koong (Duke), How (Marquis), Pa >> ak (Earl), Tze (Baron), and Nan (Baronet), in addition to the Emperor and >> Princes. > Those are more commonly translated into Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, > and Baron. Okay, that makes more sense. Thanks. <> Yes, that's what I found out too. The issue is whether you want to use a system that is historically correct, or an adaptation that maintains the flavor but works better with your game world. That's up to you. <> Okay, that helps too. Incidentally, the Wong seems more like the European Margrave (Marquis). As the name implies, the responsibility of the Margrave or the Marquis was to defend a "mark" (or a march, basically some sizeable and problematic border). Just making sure we have the right Wong. :) <> Cool. That's plenty right there! Indeed -- the idea of the prince, as understood in medieval Germany, is a little peculiar. What you can do is adapt a title that would be approxiately equal in rank. After all, the idea is to come up with a fantasy system. <> ROFL! I'll definitely keep that on file! :) <> No problem. Happens to me too occasionally. Thanks again. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:35:50 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles On Sat, 31 May 1997 Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >If you need any other info on Chinese related stuff, feel free to >contact me through private e-mail at scy2g@virginia.edu. > > John Yu But please don't worry about posting this stuff to the list... I'm fascinated! :-) On a different note, Leroy - do you have any idea why some messages seem to get repeated sometimes? It happened to me a few times two weeks ago, and now John's message got repeated too. What's up? Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:00:42 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles In a message dated 97-05-31 07:29:21 EDT, JohnYu writes: << Not quite sure what you meant here. AFAIK Confucius never had title of nobility of any kind. >> That's right -- I think the author of the book was only relating how far back some of the families had been tracked. The 2,500 years long genealogy for Confucius is pretty impressive (with or without title). As far as European genealogies go, I think the oldest family that was able to retain its title and its land is the Grimaldi family who just recently celebrated their 7th century over the Principality of Monaco. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:50:45 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Multiple Copies... > On a different note, Leroy - do you have any idea why some messages seem > to get repeated sometimes? It happened to me a few times two weeks ago, > and now John's message got repeated too. What's up? These things happen on occasion. They are usually caused by either the senders ISP mail system or Majordomo "burping" during the send. Unless it starts becoming common, I generally don't stress on it. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 97 21:59:01 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC and Mystara > so what is the consensus out there? > > 1) one email from many people Count me in for a petition! Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 00:45:22 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: [Mystara] Spelljamming on Mystara (long) Hello All, I don't know if any of you guys play spelljammer, but now that Mystara has been converted to AD&D; and pretty much all info about Mystara on web sites is in AD&D form, I wanted to know if any of you guys had thought about creating Alphatian, Thyatin, or Glantrian spelljammers. Or put any thought into how Mystara interacts with the other spheres, or how the Elven Imperial Navy could interact with Mystara. (I realize this paragraph is poorly written) Since Mystara was never intended to be used with Spelljammer, anything we come up with will be totally independant of the cannon. However, Mystara could be introduced to spelljamming when an Elven Man-o-war discovers Mystara. This could happen at any time, maybe in the next almanac. Then the three main powers of Mystara could beguin a "space race" to explore space. This could bring a whole new era of warfare between Alphatia, Thyatis, and Glantri. Not to mention it would be a new way for NACE to reach Alphatia in the Hollow World. There was some mention of using spelljamming to reach the hollow world. It was a conversion page on the back of one of the hollow world gazateers, or maybe it was the last page to the DM guide of the Hollow World box set. Anyway I think it might be a good idea, and if anyone has any ideas about it please let me know. Also if any of the people that contributed to the almanac want to collabarate on an incredible expansion to the Mystara campaign I would be happy to give some ideas. I am not a good writer, but I have a lot of ideas on where to go with this. Just let me know if anyone is interested in this or has any ideas about. Thanks, Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 01:05:09 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: [Mystara] War Machine Hello all, I wanted to know if anyone has had any thoughts about converting od&d war machine stats to ad&d stats. I never liked the battlesystem rules. Thanks, Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 07:15:48 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spelljamming on Mystara (long) [a bunch of stuff snipped] Actually, this is a subject that has come up a time or two before on the list. Few people are big on it (not surprising, considering SJ's relative unpopularity). Still, there are some who do mix it, including myself. Actually, having another world to explore in SJ was the primary reason I got into Mystara (though I soon became fixated :) One of these days I am going to sit down and write-up the concepts I have come up with for Mystaraspace. I did write up some stuff on how certain Mystaran countries would react to spelljamming. It can be found at... ftp://ftp.io.com/public-web/mailing-lists/mystara-l/sjknwld.txt ...though I should warn you it is several years old and a little rough. Feel free to post your ideas. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:12:26 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: [Mystara] Where is the Cyclopedia Errata? Sniff! My bookmark file got trashed. Could someone please send me the URL for the Cyclopedia Errata? It's been mentioned on the list in recent months. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 19:50:38 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Where is the Cyclopedia Errata? Neal Daskal wrote: > > Sniff! My bookmark file got trashed. Could someone please > send me the URL for the Cyclopedia Errata? It's been > mentioned on the list in recent months. Thanks. You can find the Cyclopedia Errata VER4.0 written by Jason MacInnes at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JustJay/dderr4.htm Another copy can also be found at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:37:36 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] HWR3: The Milenian Empire Just yesterday night i was reading my copy of Milenian Empire and i found out 3 things that puzzled me: 1. In the entry for the High Magus' spells, it is mentioned at level 1: Analyze. Now, i went through the canon D&D spells and there was nothing with that name, and went i looked in the new spells detailed in HWR3, i found nothing again. So i ask you (maybe Bruce could enlight me on this point): what's the Analyze spell about? 2. In the entry for the Fountain of Time (or something like that, anyway, it' the first artifact listed), at the end it is written that to destroy it completely one need plunge into its waters the Heart of Entropy. I read further the description of the other Milenian artifacts, but there was no Heart of Entropy to be found. Once again i ask then: what is this and where is it mentioned? 3. Well, this last one is just my personal opinion, but i found a very powerful spell that is rated only 1st level in Milenia: Sure Strike, D: 1 turn, E: 1 weapon. The weapon touched by the caster automatically (without any roll) hits ONCE if used before the duration of the enchantment (1 turn) expires. Well, to me this is a really powerful spell, cause it also allows the weapon to strike as if it was magical! I don't see why you have rated it only 1st level for magic user... it's at least 3rd level if not higher IMO.. Well, that's all for today, thanks DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:23:46 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] HWR3: The Milenian Empire On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > Just yesterday night i was reading my copy of Milenian Empire and i found > out 3 things that puzzled me: > 1. In the entry for the High Magus' spells, it is mentioned at level 1: > Analyze. Now, i went through the canon D&D spells and there was nothing with > that name, and went i looked in the new spells detailed in HWR3, i found > nothing again. So i ask you (maybe Bruce could enlight me on this point): > what's the Analyze spell about? Analyze spell is found in Rules Cyclopedia. It's somewhat like the AD&D Identify spell (identifies magical items). Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:11:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: question about Odin's servants (was [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) On Thu, 29 May 1997, David Melik wrote: > At 12:22 AM 5/26/97 +0200, you wrote: > >forgot to mention Hugin and Munin. Any other way to spell the names of > >Odins ravens? the u is pronounced as the 'oo' in 'food.' The i is > >pronounced an in Ronin. couldn't think of better example offhand. > > > Well, I've seen them with two n's on the end... > > >anything else? > yeah, what about "einherjar"... that looks like a tough one! Now let me see. "ei" is a sound pronounced like the letter a. (When you say the letter, the word.) the j is a bit "softer" in norwegian..try using y. making the lkast part of the word yar... Let me know if I'm being unclear.... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #94 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #95 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, June 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 095 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:19:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] HWR3: The Milenian Empire DM pontificated: > > 3. Well, this last one is just my personal opinion, but i found a very > powerful spell that is rated only 1st level in Milenia: Sure Strike, D: 1 > turn, E: 1 weapon. The weapon touched by the caster automatically (without > any roll) hits ONCE if used before the duration of the enchantment (1 turn) > expires. Well, to me this is a really powerful spell, cause it also allows > the weapon to strike as if it was magical! I don't see why you have rated it > only 1st level for magic user... it's at least 3rd level if not higher IMO.. > Can the spell be cast on magical weapon? If not, it is no more powerful than Magic Missile, a ranged automatic hit that increases in power as caster goes up in argue. Of course, I seen people say MM is overpowered, which I agree to some extent. I don't think Sure Strike should be 3rd level even if it can be casted on magic weapon, as at 3rd level, you can do multiple dice of damage to many opponents with one spell. The only problem I see with Sure Strike is combine with some nasty magical weapon, but generally, if a character have that type of weapon, they don't have problem hitting things with it. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:35:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [Mystara] HWR3: The Milenian Empire > 3. Well, this last one is just my personal opinion, but i found a very > powerful spell that is rated only 1st level in Milenia: Sure Strike, D: 1 > turn, E: 1 weapon. The weapon touched by the caster automatically (without > any roll) hits ONCE if used before the duration of the enchantment (1 turn) > expires. Well, to me this is a really powerful spell, cause it also allows > the weapon to strike as if it was magical! I don't see why you have rated it > only 1st level for magic user... it's at least 3rd level if not higher IMO.. Well, all this means is that it allows a normal sword to be used once against a wight or something..rather a useless effect. Creatures which can only be hurt by magic or magic weapons shouldn't be met until a good portion of the party is armed with such weapons IMO, unless it is intended that the party flee. And the main effect of 1 sure hit is the same as a magic missile, a 1st level spell. "We love your adherence to democratic principles and democratic processes" - - George Bush, 1981, to dictator Ferdinard Marcos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 10:46:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] HWR3: The Milenian Empire On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > 1. In the entry for the High Magus' spells, it is mentioned at level 1: > Analyze. Now, i went through the canon D&D spells and there was nothing with > that name, and went i looked in the new spells detailed in HWR3, i found > nothing again. So i ask you (maybe Bruce could enlight me on this point): > what's the Analyze spell about? The Analyze spell first showed up (in D&D) in GAZ5. It's one of the Elf spells. It then showed up again in the canonical list of spells in the Rules Cyclopedia. It may have a different name, but I don't think so... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:52:12 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] WOTC Completes Acquisition of TSR the following is from the wotc web site: > WIZARDS OF THE COAST COMPLETES ACQUISITION OF TSR INC. > > June 3, 1997 (Renton, Wash.)--Wizards of the Coast Inc. today announced the > completion of its acquisition of TSR Inc., finalizing a transaction that > began in April when the two leaders of the adventure gaming industry > announced the signing of a letter of intent. Both companies are privately > held, and financial terms of the deal are not being disclosed. A product and > employee integration plan is currently being developed and details will be > announced at a later date. Wizards of the Coast is the publisher of the world' > s best-selling trading card game, Magic: The Gathering®. Lake Geneva, Wis.- > based TSR is the publisher of the world-renowned adventure game Dungeons & > Dragons. > > Peter Adkison, president and CEO of Wizards of the Coast, commented, "I am > personally and professionally thrilled with the finalization of this > agreement. The Dungeons & Dragons legacy has dominated the adventure > roleplaying game category for more than 22 years, and we are thrilled to be > new providers to its enormous worldwide audience." > > Founded in 1975, TSR rose to a market leadership position that endures today > with the introduction of Dungeons & Dragons. The internationally famous game > further generated a wide variety of best-selling adventure and roleplaying > games and merchandise, including the New York Times best-selling book series, > Dragonlance®. The game Dungeons & Dragons was featured in an early scene of > the 1982 Steven Spielberg hit movie, E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial. > > Wizards of the Coast is a privately held game company that publishes the > world's best-selling trading card game, Magic: The Gathering. Headquartered > outside of Seattle, Wash., in the city of Renton, Wizards of the Coast is the > leading authority on card games and adventure board games, with top-selling > titles such as the BattleTech® TCG and RoboRally®. Wizards of the Coast also > has international offices in Antwerp, Paris and London. For more information > on Wizards of the Coast, visit the company's website at com> or its CompuServe forum at . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:05:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Re: Mystara-art On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Hi there. oooops That opne was not intended for the list. sorry. Haavard R. Faanes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:02:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Mystara-art Hi there. Thankyou for those images you sent me. I especially liked the one with the angel. (Although it was a bit large) Do you have any with warriors, priests, wizards or the like? Preferably in the same style as the one in the angel image. Thanks... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:27:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Homepage My homepage has now reached some level of decency. It contains a couple of articles on the Church of Karameikos which I have submitted to this list earlier. I hope to add more info later. It also contains a list of links to other Mystara/D&D related websites. If you know of any more sites that should be added to the list, feel free to contact me. If you have produced any material(mystara-related) of some quality that you cant get on web, I might have some room for it. Any general comments are also welcome. Haavard :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:13:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Spelljamming on Mystara (long) On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Jay Herrington wrote: > Hello All, > > I don't know if any of you guys play spelljammer, but now that Mystara > has been converted to AD&D; and pretty much all info about Mystara on > web sites is in AD&D form, I wanted to know if any of you guys had > thought about creating Alphatian, Thyatin, or Glantrian spelljammers. > Or put any thought into how Mystara interacts with the other spheres, or > how the Elven Imperial Navy could interact with Mystara. (I realize this > paragraph is poorly written) > > Since Mystara was never intended to be used with Spelljammer, anything > we come up with will be totally independant of the cannon. However, > Mystara could be introduced to spelljamming when an Elven Man-o-war > discovers Mystara. This could happen at any time, maybe in the next > almanac. Then the three main powers of Mystara could beguin a "space > race" to explore space. This could bring a whole new era of warfare > between Alphatia, Thyatis, and Glantri. Not to mention it would be a > new way for NACE to reach Alphatia in the Hollow World. I think the spelljammer setting was both interesting and original. However it will not be introduced to my campaign. On the other hand I wouldn't mind more articles on mystara space. Marco(DM)and I had some discussions on Damocles and space voyagers from that world a while ago. I prefer using the rules for space travel presented by Bruce Heard in Champions of Mystara and Dragon Magazine. If you have any ideas on mystara space and the like I'd be very interested in hearing about it. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 10:24:56 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] WoC & TSR -- It's Official! Hey guys! Just found out that as of yesterday, WoC has officially bought out TSR! You can read the Press Release at: http://www.tsrinc.com/wizards/purchase.html Better Gaming To All! Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:11:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > Okay, that helps too. Incidentally, the Wong seems more like the European > Margrave (Marquis). As the name implies, the responsibility of the Margrave > or the Marquis was to defend a "mark" (or a march, basically some sizeable > and problematic border). Just making sure we have the right Wong. :) Thanks for the explaination of Marquis, I never knew where it came from. But I think translating Marquis to Wong could work too. As the dictionary people probably translated the titles by just seeing there are five ranks of western nobility and matched them up with the five ranks of Chinese nobility without thinking much about the responsibility of each actual rank. And by translating Marquis to Wong, the last two ranks of Chinese nobility would be dropped to Knights, which seems to me actually fits better. Problem will be that I'm not exactly sure what to translate Duke into, unless you just want two levels of Wong. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:53:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Chinese Titles TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > > That's right -- I think the author of the book was only relating how far back > some of the families had been tracked. The 2,500 years long genealogy for > Confucius is pretty impressive (with or without title). As far as European > genealogies go, I think the oldest family that was able to retain its title > and its land is the Grimaldi family who just recently celebrated their 7th > century over the Principality of Monaco. Yeah, I think that is actually an official world record. I guess when you have a famous ancestor, you want to keep track of it. But, I think Chinese in general worry more about keeping track of family tree than most other peoples. Also, Chinese have strong sense of home town and home province. The Ancestrial Home is listed on my Chinese ID even when like most Chinese born in the past couple generations, I have never came close to there (It is traced through father). And supposely in my ancestrial home town, like many other, have a family shrine with the official family book that records the family tree of the past and the form that newer generations given names should follow. And since until past hundred years or so, Chinese communities are pretty static, it is not hard to see that some of the family lines could be traced back a while. Even people who died away from home should be send back to home town for burial. Which lead to an interesting profession of Corpse Herder, who supposely animates the dead bodies and walks them home. And they are around as late as early 1900's. Supposly they just cut off the head of the dead, get someone else to pretend to be the walking corpse, and after they get to the right place, find a body and saw the head back on, and hope the grieving family wouldn't look too closely before giving them the money. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 19:43:38 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] HWR3: The Milenian Empire On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 DM wrote: >2. In the entry for the Fountain of Time (or something like that, anyway, >it' the first artifact listed), at the end it is written that to destroy it >completely one need plunge into its waters the Heart of Entropy. I read >further the description of the other Milenian artifacts, but there was no >Heart of Entropy to be found. Once again i ask then: what is this and where >is it mentioned? This is similar to something I was reading the other day in the Rules Cyclopedia. I was looking at the example artifact (the Mask of Bachraeus or something) and it says that it can only be destroyed when it is held in the view of the "Golden Mirror of Ka". Now as far as I know, there is no mention of that artifact anywhere. I think that what's happened is that they detailed the means of destruction to add to the legend of the artifact, but they thought that if anyone ever wanted to destroy it, the DM involved could detail the other artifact himself. It's a shame that these artifacts aren't detailed anywhere, but I do like the references to them anyway. :-) >3. Well, this last one is just my personal opinion, but i found a very >powerful spell that is rated only 1st level in Milenia: Sure Strike, D: 1 >turn, E: 1 weapon. The weapon touched by the caster automatically (without >any roll) hits ONCE if used before the duration of the enchantment (1 turn) >expires. Well, to me this is a really powerful spell, cause it also allows >the weapon to strike as if it was magical! I don't see why you have rated it >only 1st level for magic user... it's at least 3rd level if not higher IMO.. Nah, it's not too powerful, at least not for my campaign. Look at the spell "Striking" - clerical, 3rd level: adds 1d6 damage to every hit from any weapon it's cast on for 1 turn. Additionally, on a normal weapon it allows it to hit creatures normally only "hittable" (;-) by magic weapons. Now THAT is powerful - a bit too powerful for my campaign, where people routinely haste themselves and use two weapons! Just imagine a rakasta warrior with war claws and his bite attack (3 attacks per round, double damage on 19 or 20 with claws, 2d4 damage each claw, 1d4 for the bite) getting hasted and striking cast on his claws - OUCH! He managed to bring a Huge Red Dragon to is knees within two rounds (had to Dimension Door out of there to heal itself). So I don't think Sure Strike is too powerful unless it is cast on a weapon such as an "arrow of ... slaying", in which case it is unfair (so as the DM you say "the spell fizzles and dies. Sorry, it failed."). Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:04:15 +0200 (METDST) From: "Oystein H. Lund" Subject: Re: [Mystara] HWR3: The Milenian Empire On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > The Analyze spell first showed up (in D&D) in GAZ5. It's one of the Elf > spells. It then showed up again in the canonical list of spells in the > Rules Cyclopedia. It may have a different name, but I don't think so... > To be sure, I've never used this in the campaigns I run - and the players in my groups have mostly agreed with my desicion. 'Tis far too much information about the magical treasures and their nature for me to be comfortable with it... So any information of that nature must come from Lore spells, slates of identification, or similar high-powered magic. Of course, im my main campaign the wizard of the party has long since researched a Lore spell, and now he turns a tidy profit on the side, identifying magical items for lesser adventurers ;) _______________________________________________________________________ | Oeystein H. Lund ,kj160@lhg.hib.no | |"I still consider Southern California the best evidence we have that | | not only do aliens exist, but that they are here already. " | |_____________________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 14:21:06 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] HWR3: The Milenian Empire At 09.04 05/06/97 +0200, you wrote: >On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >> The Analyze spell first showed up (in D&D) in GAZ5. It's one of the Elf >> spells. It then showed up again in the canonical list of spells in the >> Rules Cyclopedia. It may have a different name, but I don't think so... >> > To be sure, I've never used this in the campaigns I run - and the >players in my groups have mostly agreed with my desicion. 'Tis far too >much information about the magical treasures and their nature for me >to be comfortable with it... So any information of that nature must come >from Lore spells, slates of identification, or similar high-powered magic. Analyze is not that powerful spell, for several reasons. 1) It doesn't work always, but there's a percentage of success that goes on with the level. 2) Low level PC cannot study too many Analyze, because they need offensive and defensive spells to survive. High level PC usually have Lore similar magic. 3) Most important: Analyze doesn't say exactly what a magical item does, it gives only general info. For example, when my PC tried to identify a dagger +1, +2 vs. lychantropes they learned that the dagger was slightly magical and a bit more powerful against hairy creatures. Not much info IMO. Just my opinion. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:51:36 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Sure Strike not powerful? At 19.43 04/06/97 +0100, you wrote: >DM wrote: >>3. Well, this last one is just my personal opinion, but i found a very >>powerful spell that is rated only 1st level in Milenia: Sure Strike, D: 1 >>turn, E: 1 weapon. The weapon touched by the caster automatically (without >>any roll) hits ONCE if used before the duration of the enchantment (1 turn) >>expires. Well, to me this is a really powerful spell, cause it also allows >>the weapon to strike as if it was magical! I don't see why you have rated it >>only 1st level for magic user... it's at least 3rd level if not higher IMO.. > >Nah, it's not too powerful, at least not for my campaign. Look at the >spell "Striking" - clerical, 3rd level: adds 1d6 damage to every hit >from any weapon it's cast on for 1 turn. Additionally, on a normal >weapon it allows it to hit creatures normally only "hittable" (;-) by >magic weapons. This comes also with Sure Strike, if u read the description. But what you maybe have failed to see is that a name level fighter with some decent weapon mastery (let's say Skilled-Expert level and above) could Smash on an otherwise UNTOUCHABLE foe (like, let's say, a Nightwalker) and do massive damage to him automatically (and that doesn't sound like Magic Missile to me). For example, if his To Hit Roll place his THAC0 to 12, that means he can only hit max AC-8 with his modified roll, and that he needs a roll of 20 on d20 to hit from AC-9 to -12 IIRC. But using Sure Strike, he could automatically hit a foe with -9 or even -13 and more without throwing a dice...and what if the caster memorize more than 1 Sure strike and Haste?.. Brr.. I don't dare to figure out what other combos can be done with this... Now: do u still think that Striking is better? DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 12:13:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sure Strike not powerful? On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > This comes also with Sure Strike, if u read the description. But what you > maybe have failed to see is that a name level fighter with some decent > weapon mastery (let's say Skilled-Expert level and above) could Smash on an > otherwise UNTOUCHABLE foe (like, let's say, a Nightwalker) and do massive > damage to him automatically (and that doesn't sound like Magic Missile to > me). For example, if his To Hit Roll place his THAC0 to 12, that means he > can only hit max AC-8 with his modified roll, and that he needs a roll of 20 > on d20 to hit from AC-9 to -12 IIRC. But using Sure Strike, he could > automatically hit a foe with -9 or even -13 and more without throwing a > dice...and what if the caster memorize more than 1 Sure strike and Haste?.. > Brr.. I don't dare to figure out what other combos can be done with this... Hey- if the characters are smart enough to plan ahead like this, and know the capabilities of the monsters they are going to confront, I say more power to them. If you really want to catch them offguard, though, ideally they won't _know_ there's going to be a Nightwalker confronting them in that dark room ahead. And if it's supposed to be a major confrontation or something, (again ideally) hopefully you've softened them up quite a bit beforehand, perhaps exhausting most or all of their strike spells in the process. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:01:15 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Analyse On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >> To be sure, I've never used this in the campaigns I run - and the >>players in my groups have mostly agreed with my desicion. 'Tis far too >>much information about the magical treasures and their nature for me >>to be comfortable with it... So any information of that nature must come >>from Lore spells, slates of identification, or similar high-powered magic. > >Analyze is not that powerful spell, for several reasons. I agree with Fabrizio here, Analyse isn't really too powerful. It very often fails at low levels, allowing a crafty DM to give some interesting but useless or even deceptive information on it. >1) It doesn't work always, but there's a percentage of success that goes on >with the level. >2) Low level PC cannot study too many Analyze, because they need offensive >and defensive spells to survive. High level PC usually have Lore similar >magic. I find this too. The magic-user in my Karameikos Campaign would never memorize an Analyse when he could memorize a Magic Missile instead. >3) Most important: Analyze doesn't say exactly what a magical item does, it >gives only general info. For example, when my PC tried to identify a dagger >+1, +2 vs. lychantropes they learned that the dagger was slightly magical >and a bit more powerful against hairy creatures. Not much info IMO. >Just my opinion. Yeah, I like Analyse too. The problem I have in my campaign is that all my players are far too familiar with magic items so even if I try to disguise what it is, they guess! I'm making a real effort to put more mysery back into the magic items in my campaign. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:25:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] netMAGs Form: Memo Text: (18 lines follow) I have #s 6 & 7 ready for mailing. They are .zip format. email me here and I will do ONE mass mailing to everyone who wants it. I'm sending them out on friday morning (california time). PLEASE do not email me after then for a personal copy... they will be available on my webpage after Friday: http://members.aol.com/b1bard on the webpage, they are available as both .sit and .zip files LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:33:22 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Sure Strike not powerful? On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 DM wrote: >This comes also with Sure Strike, if u read the description. But what you >maybe have failed to see is that a name level fighter with some decent >weapon mastery (let's say Skilled-Expert level and above) could Smash on an >otherwise UNTOUCHABLE foe (like, let's say, a Nightwalker) and do massive >damage to him automatically (and that doesn't sound like Magic Missile to >me). For example, if his To Hit Roll place his THAC0 to 12, that means he >can only hit max AC-8 with his modified roll, and that he needs a roll of 20 >on d20 to hit from AC-9 to -12 IIRC. But using Sure Strike, he could >automatically hit a foe with -9 or even -13 and more without throwing a >dice...and what if the caster memorize more than 1 Sure strike and Haste?.. >Brr.. I don't dare to figure out what other combos can be done with this... >Now: do u still think that Striking is better? You're right, it certainly can be exploited to great effect. Just imagine a weapon with BOTH enchantments cast on it... But in my experience no matter what you throw against your characters they will be able to hit them, often at least half of the time. Especially when using Weapon Mastery, THAC0s become lower and lower, what with weapon mastery to hit bonuses, magic item bonuses, strength bonuses, etc., so that Sure Strike would only insure one hit and the cleric would probably be better to try and hit himself rather than cast another one. If you still think it's too powerful, which I agree it certainly can be under the right circumstances (and with the right players ;-), then limit it so that it takes a turn to cast, or maybe a few rounds. Then not only can it be used only once per combat but only one weapon can have it, otherwise the other weapon's enchantment will run out as the second gets cast. Of course you can also just not tell your players about the spell... Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:36:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Re: Haven Almanac Entry... Does anyone have any comments about my Almanac Entry for Haven? Has anyone even read it? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 16:33:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Haven Almanac Entry... On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have any comments about my Almanac Entry for Haven? Has anyone > even read it? Read it. Thought it was interesting. ;) No, really. I liked the way you tied it in with the Spirit Realm- that goes a long way to explaining away it being not terribly familiar to the creatures living in and around that area. Seems to me there was something regarding that in the module, too. I thought the time differential stuff was a bit too in depth for my tastes; I'd much rather arbitrate that according to what fit my campaign rather than leave it to random chance, but some people might feel otherwise. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 21:39:19 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Timeline? Did anyone receive a copy of my timeline on Varellya/Vulture Peninsula? Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander Political Science IV Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 00:37:20 PDT From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Analyse >On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>> To be sure, I've never used this in the campaigns I run - and the >>>players in my groups have mostly agreed with my desicion. 'Tis far too >>>much information about the magical treasures and their nature for me >>>to be comfortable with it... So any information of that nature must come >>>from Lore spells, slates of identification, or similar high-powered magic. >> >>Analyze is not that powerful spell, for several reasons. > >I agree with Fabrizio here, Analyse isn't really too powerful. It very >often fails at low levels, allowing a crafty DM to give some interesting >but useless or even deceptive information on it. Yes, for example I once gave the players a Girdle of Giant Strength in a treasure hoard. The party wizard cast the spell to determine which kind of girdle that was (our muscled warriors were all afraid of that good ole girdle that switches sex, ya know), and the wizard roll an utter failure... I couldn't resist, of course... So no one wanted to try it, but a fighter who was so much willing a Girdle of Giant Strength, knowing how poor a wizard his friend was, decided to hire another wizard and have him analyse it, which revealed the object's true nature. So he got the magical stuff for nothing (well, he paid the wizard, but nobody discussed his right on the girdle). >>1) It doesn't work always, but there's a percentage of success that goes on >>with the level. >>2) Low level PC cannot study too many Analyze, because they need offensive >>and defensive spells to survive. High level PC usually have Lore similar >>magic. > >I find this too. The magic-user in my Karameikos Campaign would never >memorize an Analyse when he could memorize a Magic Missile instead. > >>3) Most important: Analyze doesn't say exactly what a magical item does, it >>gives only general info. For example, when my PC tried to identify a dagger >>+1, +2 vs. lychantropes they learned that the dagger was slightly magical >>and a bit more powerful against hairy creatures. Not much info IMO. >>Just my opinion. > >Yeah, I like Analyse too. The problem I have in my campaign is that all >my players are far too familiar with magic items so even if I try to >disguise what it is, they guess! I'm making a real effort to put more >mysery back into the magic items in my campaign. Try my trick. Or if there's no cursed object of similar shape, have them have an illusionary magic cast on them... Herve Musseau Primary Email: herve@hotmail.com Also: hmusseau@compuserve.com Also: musseauh@esiee.fr (old, checked once a month till July) Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh (till July) I'm a QSQWBEEEGGNFR Mystaran - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 12:48:27 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Haven Almanac Entry... At 18.36 05/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone have any comments about my Almanac Entry for Haven? Has >anyone even read it? > >Mystaros > Uhm.. interesting stuff, but unfortunately i don't own B10 and i don't know anything about Haven (once again). Anyway, i'll use your almanac for my campaign if i'll ever have the need to... May i also place it in my incoming webpage (giving u the full credit)? DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 12:46:37 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timeline? At 21.39 05/06/97 EDT, you wrote: > > Did anyone receive a copy of my timeline on Varellya/Vulture >Peninsula? > > Geoff I did, and if u don't mind i'd like to insert it in my homepage, giving u the full credit u deserve, of course. I found it interesting, although i don't know anything about the Varellyans. I think however that it's unlikely that they have spread their civilization so far, reaching the Savage Coast and the Arm of Immortals: if that was the case, why there is no mention of this in any thyatian, alphatian or other importan nation's history books? This is the only part i'm really uncertain about, but i'll leave it as u wrote... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 14:19:08 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] netMAGs At 13.25 05/06/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have #s 6 & 7 ready for mailing. They are .zip format. > >email me here and I will do ONE mass mailing to everyone who wants it. I'm >sending them out on friday morning (california time). PLEASE do not email >me after then for a personal copy... >they will be available on my webpage after Friday: > >http://members.aol.com/b1bard > I am sorry to inform you that i really cannot access your homepage. It seems your address doesn't belong to AOL. Are u sure u wrote it right? Anyway, i'm interested, if it's not too late... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 05:04:54 PDT From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name If you read the almanac for 1014 (which I'm sure you did) you know that there will be a new Karameikan expedition to the HW in 1015. Well, they will be using a skyship (the first they build) to send a team of explorers and diplomats to the HW. This would be a joint expedition from the Karameikans and their allies of the NACE. Well, telling more would be spoiling the fun of the surprise, but I'm trying to figure out a name for that skyship that would reflect that sense of unity/alliance of peoples. I first thought to the Uniter, which was later corrected to Unifier by Thorf, but this doesn't sound quite well. Thorf also proposed the Concordia (which BTW sounds latin so it's ok for a Karameikan name) but it seems it is also the name of the ship in Wing Commander (the computer game). So, does anyone have a good idea for that ship? Herve Musseau Primary Email: herve@hotmail.com Also: hmusseau@compuserve.com Also: musseauh@esiee.fr (old, checked once a month till July) Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh (till July) I'm a QSQWBEEEGGNFR Mystaran - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 16:16:16 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name At 05.04 06/06/97 PDT, Herve wrote: >If you read the almanac for 1014 (which I'm sure you did) you know that >there will be a new Karameikan expedition to the HW in 1015. Well, they >will be using a skyship (the first they build) to send >a team of explorers and diplomats to the HW. This would be a joint >expedition from the Karameikans and their allies of the NACE. > >Well, telling more would be spoiling the fun of the surprise, but >I'm trying to figure out a name for that skyship that would reflect >that sense of unity/alliance of peoples. I think Concordia (as Thorf suggested) is a good choice, but if u want to try another one, why not Unity Ship, or Pacem, or Societas (sort of Alliance in latin) ... or Arcadia (which is Captain Harlock's ship, BTW!!) Alternatively, you could name it with the Traladaran equivalent (who knows Rumanian or Slavic here?) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:12:52 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Battle Rules has anyone looked at the d.o.e. thyatis pc guide where they talk about a new system for battles? armor is not included when determining ac simply because armor will not help you avoid an attack it does protect your body if you get hit though therefore this system assigns an armor value (av) to each type of armor it sounds like a real good idea its much more realistic the problem is their rules for armor value heres an example: npc rolls a succesful to hit and rolls 8 damage with his long sword the pc is wearing plate mail which has a av of 6 (i think) the first point of damage automatically gets through the armor soaks up the next 6 points allowing one more point to get through doing 2 damage overall the obvious flaw in this system occurs when the characters can do large amounts of damage armor becomes close to useless if 30 points of damage is inflicted and wearing leather armor will only absorb 2 points of damage whats the point? has anyone developed an improved system on their own? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:54:53 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis I was just reading through the recipe for Haggis in Joshuan's Almanac, and, being Scottish myself, I found it quite amusing. Surely there must be someone out there who doesn't balk at the thought of eating it? It isn't that bad, you know! :-) Anyway, I thought someone might be interested to know that the "tatties 'n neeps" are also sometimes mixed together and called "clapshot". This is mainly an Orkney thing. Another thought struck me while looking through PC3 the other night - what is it about us Scots that many Mystara writers decide to place an estranged or fleeing or whatever Klantrian in their setting?! Not only is there one in Oenkmar, there's even one in Undersea! ;-) And finally, I know that "Mc" and "Mac" are common in Scottish names, but I think they might be just a tad over-stressed... Most of the people I know don't have a "Mc" at the beginning... Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #95 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #96 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, June 8 1997 Volume 02 : Number 096 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:59:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] web site Form: Memo Text: (18 lines follow) apparently my website [http://members.aol.com/b1bard/] has been inaccessible to some people (including me =8-0 ) netMAGs #6 and 7 will be uploaded as soon as I can get my upload program to work... AOL is giving me some different sets of technical stuff to try, so I'll have to let everyone know when it's all available. the address *is* good, though - I accessed it several times from work with the browser I have here. LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 18:36:22 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] netMAGs At 14:19 6-06-97 +0000, you wrote: >At 13.25 05/06/97 -0500, you wrote: >>I have #s 6 & 7 ready for mailing. They are .zip format. >> >>email me here and I will do ONE mass mailing to everyone who wants it. I'm >>sending them out on friday morning (california time). PLEASE do not email >>me after then for a personal copy... >>they will be available on my webpage after Friday: >> >>http://members.aol.com/b1bard >> >I am sorry to inform you that i really cannot access your homepage. It seems >your address doesn't belong to AOL. Are u sure u wrote it right? Anyway, i'm >interested, if it's not too late... > >DM I got several problems contacting friends on AOL. Maybe some part of it is down... Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:16:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Haven Almanac Entry... On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have any comments about my Almanac Entry for Haven? Has anyone > even read it? Read it. I think it was cool. I havent decided yet what to think of the spirit world/otherworld/faery which is the main reason for not commenting on this matter. I thought of faery much like the Fairy world in Sandman. More like a home of fairitales. Home of Pixies and Sidhe and even Hags and Crones of chaos? I suppose there is no reason why this shouldn't be the same plane as the spiritworld. However the D&D presentation of faeries does not give me the impression of them as spirits. My idea of spirits is greatly influenced by RuneQuest. Ive presented the faerie as more material creatures and spirits as rather immaterial. I could change that though. What are everybody elses opinoin on this? Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:07:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Battle Rules On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: > has anyone looked at the d.o.e. thyatis pc guide > where they talk about a new system for battles? > armor is not included when determining ac > simply because armor will not help you avoid an attack > it does protect your body if you get hit though > therefore this system assigns an armor value (av) to each type of armor > has anyone developed an improved system on their own? I have used the system you described, but I haven't developed it much further. It is true that leather and such seem less important at higher levels, but that happens if you use the old rules with players with great attack-skills too (good thac0). Also according to these rules armour protects against spells like fireball IIRC. Even if just a litle bit. In one campaign where I was a player, the DM used these rules combined with hit location rules (from Orcs of Thar), but I found that that slowed down the combat speed considerably. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:45:07 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: Church of Thyatis (was Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) Hi! >>Oath of Liege: >>-------------- >Are you sure? I didn't think I was a poet either, until I started writing >poetry, which can take hours. It looks like a decent job. :) Do you mind >if I write a different version or make suggestions? No, I would be glad to get some suggestions! Keep in mind that I play AD&D in Mystara (now for at least seven years) and I mix Immortals and gods, I´m still trying to find a way how planescape match naturaly and logically with Mystaran Immortals. On another topic: I do use Chronomancer and Planescape, but try to keep the Mystaran spirit. I can´t say anything specific now, it´s more an overall thing! Mayber I will come to a situation where I can tell you what I mean. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:49:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name Herve Musseau pontificated: > > So, does anyone have a good idea for that ship? > Few names off the top of my head. United (like the soccer/football team :) Harmony Peace Pacifica Hope/Mirro Alliance Friendship And you can also just give it any name that sounds good and say that is the name of the star/animal/flower that represent the idea of unity, or it meant unity in some language other than Common. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 97 16:13:19 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timeline? > > I did, and if u don't mind i'd like to insert it in my homepage, giving u > the full credit u deserve, of course. Hey, thanks!!! Could you give me your site address? > I found it interesting, although i don't know anything about the Varellyans. > I think however that it's unlikely that they have spread their civilization > so far, reaching the Savage Coast and the Arm of Immortals: if that was the > case, why there is no mention of this in any thyatian, alphatian or other > importan nation's history books? This is the only part i'm really uncertain > about, but i'll leave it as u wrote... My theory on this is that at the times I mentioned, neither the Thyatians nor the Alphatians has extended their empires that far west or south. Remember, the contemporaries of the Varellyans were the Milenians and the Nithians, neither of whom exist anymore as cohesive units on the planet's surface, except for Thothia and the Davanian city-states. Any culture they would have had contact with has long since forgotten them. The Varellyans were starting their decline just as the Thyatians were getting their s__t together (c. 400-600 BC), and besides, the Thyatians during that time were too primitive, and too distant (on Brun) for there to be regular contact. As for the Alphatians, I don't think they seriously explored as far south as Davania, let alone the Vulture Peninsula, until the days of Haldemar. IMC, they were too busy beating up the Minaeans and the Jennites to care about some distant continent of "savages", until recently. Besides, the Thyatians has been a thorn in their side since day one, practically. As for the Savage Coast, much of it is still shrouded in mystery, and there are numerous ruins of obscure civilizations (Monoliths of Zul, Risilvar, etc.) in the area, I figured one more wouldn't hurt. The Arm of the Immortals colony is rather small, being a few scattered towns and villages, and until recently very reclusive. On my map, it measures only about 5 or 6 8-mile hexes across, and occupies the southernmost tip of the peninsula. Also, most of the nations of the Savage Coast are quite young (less than 300 years old), and are too busy worrying about Hule and each other to delve extensively into forgotten ruins (save for adventurers, of course). Anyhow, the only people who would know of the colony would be experienced explorers. As my timeline says, the colony only exists on the Arm, not the rest of the Savage Coast, nor did Varellyans establish any settlements on the Coast. As for the as-yet-unnamed Varellyan-descended nation in southwestern Davania, I leave this totally up to the member of this list. I just thought it would be cool to throw something in there. Heck, I'll leave it open to the list to name the country, maybe have a contest... Sorry if this is a bit verbose, but your insight prompted me to fill in some extra details. Hope this helps clear things up, Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Studentus Emeritus Ad Nauseam Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 16:55:29 -0400 (EDT) From: B1Bard@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] netMAGs OK, they appear to be up and working. the address (in full) is: http://members.aol.com/b1bard/Mystara there are copies of 1,3,4,5,6 & 7. For those of you that didn't know, #2 was compiled by Amaldis@aol.com. Since I didn't compile it I'm not going to put it on my page and mislead anyone into thinking I did something I didn't do. From now on, please retrieve the netMAGs from the webpage instead of emailing me for a copy. Comments, complaints, money, suggestions, and submissions can be sent to me either here or at [ cah2774@texcom-hood.army.mil ]. If you're interested, the rest of the webpage can be found at http://members.aol.com/b1bard/ The Brantman B1Bard@aol.com "Their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, "Starship Troopers" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 17:24:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Haven Almanac Entry... In a message dated 97-06-06 13:18:55 EDT, DM wrote: << May i also place it in my incoming webpage (giving u the full credit)? DM >> Sure! Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 14:46:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > Another thought struck me while looking through PC3 the other night - > what is it about us Scots that many Mystara writers decide to place an > estranged or fleeing or whatever Klantrian in their setting?! Not only > is there one in Oenkmar, there's even one in Undersea! ;-) Having Scottish ancestry myself, I can sympathize with your sentiment. :) In all fairness, though, I don't think it is a dig at Scotland, necessarily, as it is simply (IMO) a natural result of the nature of Klantyre. I mean, let's face it, it's not much more hospitable than say, Boldavia. All those nasty undead running around, not to mention hostile mages. > And finally, I know that "Mc" and "Mac" are common in Scottish names, > but I think they might be just a tad over-stressed... Most of the > people I know don't have a "Mc" at the beginning... Yeah- where are all the Scotts? (My grandmother's side of the family is of Scott Clan descent). I've a great map of all the clan holdings in Scotland, with their coats of arms. Seems to me there's plenty of non- Mc and Macs there (although it also seems to me that the Macfarlane clan had quite a bit of land between all the various families...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 17:41:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Battle Rules On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: [In re: AV rules from Dawn of the Emperors] > the obvious flaw in this system occurs > when the characters can do large amounts of damage > armor becomes close to useless > if 30 points of damage is inflicted > and wearing leather armor will only absorb 2 points of damage > whats the point? > has anyone developed an improved system on their own? I have used something similar in the past, with my own modifications: Basically, instead of (as suggested) using the AC for magical armor as normal, and using the same AV for armor therein (ie, Plate +3 has AC of 0, AV of 6), I say that the magic makes the armor more difficult to damage, and thus adds it's bonus to AV instead. Hence, in my system: Plate +3 would have an AC of 9 (modified by Dex, Shield, etc), and an AV of 9. Thus, from your example, the first point of damage would go through, and the next 9 points would be absorbed. Additionally, I allow differences for different types of materials. For example, Mithril Plate Mail would have a higher AV than would Steel Plate Mail (say, 2-3 points more). So, for instance, Mithril Plate +3 would have an AV of something like 11-12. I find that this, combined with the expanded combat rules (parrying, deflecting, disarming, etc) helps to offset the massive damage at high levels. The characters still have relatively low ACs, but their abilities to avoid damage (from their weapon mastery abilities- note that the AC bonuses from high weapon mastery are also somewhat more balanced this way) will combine with the higher AV's to help them avoid damage, and drag combat out somewhat longer and (hopefully) more dramatically. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:32:09 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Battle Rules The Armor Value system in Dawn of the Emperors (that of which you speak) is, IMHO, a bitchin' system. Leave it to good ol' Aaron Allston to devise one of the more clever and useful (and elegant) combat systems to add to D&D. I use this combat add-on in my AD&D Mystara campaign and so far it has worked extremely well. It's more work, of course, but IMO, its worth it! Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:54:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name How about the HMS Hyraksos, after the late Admiral Lucius Hyraksos? He was the founder of the Karameikan navy, plus he had an excellent relationship with the Traladarans (his wife was a famous Traladaran singer and entertainer, and he had an excellent relationship with the Vorloi Clan). Not to mention that his son, Lord Devon Hyraksos is the Prince Consort of Adriana, the next Queen of Karameikos, meaning that her Heir, the young Lucien (named after his grandfather) will be the first Karameikan King with Traladaran blood (1/4 to be exact). That's about as unified as they can get, really... and besides, the HMS Hyraksos sounds real cool... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:11:15 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Fenswick-Laterre Link??? on the last entry on the last page of the MoA adventure book while describing the npcs they mention the valet, wilton wyatt this is what is said "The perfect valet, Wilton hails not from Nouvelle Averoigne but from Fenwick, a tiny duchy populated by fold who, like the d'Ambrevilles, originally hailed from Laterre. They followed their neighbors from Old Averoigne over a century ago but kept their own distinct language and culture." the language is called Anglais btw is fenwick a misprint of fenswick? the word is used again later in the description also spelled fenwick i have never heard of the people of fenswick coming from anywhere else so id guess theyre talking about a place i havent heard of when they say they came from laterre "over a century ago" it leads me to estimate 120 years ago, 150 years ago, etc 979ac etienne brought white wolf, genevieve de sephora etc... 743ac he brought mcgregor, house of crownguard etc 728ac he brought his own family 35ish years ago, 270ish years ago and 285ish years ago if he brought them (whoever they are) with him in 743 or 728 i would describe it as "a few centuries ago" maybe its just me but i think theres something screwy with that wording - --- -- -- Crip professional overanalizer (just wait for me to post my "old ones" history + analization ive been working on) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:13:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > > Another thought struck me while looking through PC3 the other night - > > what is it about us Scots that many Mystara writers decide to place an > > estranged or fleeing or whatever Klantrian in their setting?! Not only > > is there one in Oenkmar, there's even one in Undersea! ;-) > > Having Scottish ancestry myself, I can sympathize with your sentiment. :) > > In all fairness, though, I don't think it is a dig at Scotland, > necessarily, as it is simply (IMO) a natural result of the nature of > Klantyre. I mean, let's face it, it's not much more hospitable than say, > Boldavia. All those nasty undead running around, not to mention hostile > mages. > > > And finally, I know that "Mc" and "Mac" are common in Scottish names, > > but I think they might be just a tad over-stressed... Most of the > > people I know don't have a "Mc" at the beginning... > > Yeah- where are all the Scotts? (My grandmother's side of the family is > of Scott Clan descent). I've a great map of all the clan holdings in > Scotland, with their coats of arms. Seems to me there's plenty of non- Mc > and Macs there (although it also seems to me that the Macfarlane clan had > quite a bit of land between all the various families...) Todd's people? Whats the difference between Mc and Mac(if any)? What do are other scottish names like? Why dont you scotts make up some stuff on Klantyre culture? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:08:54 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: Church of Thyatis (was Re: [Mystara] Church of Karameikos) Hi! At 13:45 25.05.1997 +0200, Peter Balazs wrote: >>>Oath of Liege: Pfuuh, this mail needed 13 days to arrieve. I wonder where it has been! (Nirvana, Limbo,..) *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:48:36 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > At 05.04 06/06/97 PDT, Herve wrote: > >If you read the almanac for 1014 (which I'm sure you did) you know that > >there will be a new Karameikan expedition to the HW in 1015. Well, they > >will be using a skyship (the first they build) to send > >a team of explorers and diplomats to the HW. This would be a joint > >expedition from the Karameikans and their allies of the NACE. > > > >Well, telling more would be spoiling the fun of the surprise, but > >I'm trying to figure out a name for that skyship that would reflect > >that sense of unity/alliance of peoples. > > I think Concordia (as Thorf suggested) is a good choice, but if u want to > try another one, why not Unity Ship, or Pacem, or Societas (sort of Alliance > in latin) ... or Arcadia (which is Captain Harlock's ship, BTW!!) > Alternatively, you could name it with the Traladaran equivalent (who knows > Rumanian or Slavic here?) > I can provide any word in Russian, just ask. What is this ship supposed to be named as, anyway? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:17:08 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: [Mystara] Vorloi clan > entertainer, and he had an excellent relationship with the Vorloi Clan). Not I'm unclear about this thing. Is Vorloi clan Thyatian or Traladaran? The name sounds Traladaran, but GAZ1 said that Philip Vorloi came along with Stefan Karameikos when he came to the land. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:22:08 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fenswick-Laterre Link??? On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: > the language is called Anglais btw > is fenwick a misprint of fenswick? > the word is used again later in the description > also spelled fenwick Yes, there are a lot of such little inconsistencies between OD&D and new AD&D Mystara. Even some people nowadays look completely different than they used to (Harald Haaskinz shaved his beard and moustache, Diane de Moriamis drank grew hair again and became 50 years younger, Prince Morphail grew long hair, etc ;) > i have never heard of the people of fenswick coming from anywhere else > so id guess theyre talking about a place i havent heard of > BTW, does it seem to anyone that John Beaumarys-Moorcroft is of the same stock as the people of Fenswick? Is there any more info on him? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 19:38:47 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] web site At 08:59 6-06-97 -0500, you wrote: >Form: Memo >Text: (18 lines follow) > >apparently my website [http://members.aol.com/b1bard/] has been inaccessible >to some people (including me =8-0 ) > >netMAGs #6 and 7 will be uploaded as soon as I can get my upload program to >work... AOL is giving me some different sets of technical stuff to try, so >I'll have to let everyone know when it's all available. > >the address *is* good, though - I accessed it several times from work with >the browser I have here. > >LT Brant D. Guillory >3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR >TF Supply Officer >CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil >PH (408) 386-2137 >DSN 686-2710/2137 > >Use Proportional Font: true I've seen the page...it works :) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 97 12:49:33 EDT From: Dave Brohman Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis Thorfinn Tait writes: > I was just reading through the recipe for Haggis in Joshuan's Almanac, > and, being Scottish myself, I found it quite amusing. Surely there must > be someone out there who doesn't balk at the thought of eating it? It > isn't that bad, you know! :-) I love it myself. Of course, I have Scottish blood on me, err, I mean in me... > And finally, I know that "Mc" and "Mac" are common in Scottish names, > but I think they might be just a tad over-stressed... Most of the > people I know don't have a "Mc" at the beginning... Actually, Mc is almost always Irish rather than Scottish but, with all the movement between the two there is some crossover. However, one cannot overstress the Mac prefix in Scottish names. It is very common indeed. It must be remembered though that this is not Scotland by Klantyre, and I guess that it is even more common among the people of Klantyre. P.S. - Go see "The 5th Element"...NOW! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbrohman@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University "Dogs are not like cats, who ammusingly tolerate humans until somone comes up with a tin-opener that can be operated with a paw." - Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 13:30:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vorloi clan On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: > I'm unclear about this thing. Is Vorloi clan Thyatian or Traladaran? The > name sounds Traladaran, but GAZ1 said that Philip Vorloi came along with > Stefan Karameikos when he came to the land. I believe they are a Thyatian family, yes. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 13:33:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fenswick-Laterre Link??? On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: > BTW, does it seem to anyone that John Beaumarys-Moorcroft is of the same > stock as the people of Fenswick? Is there any more info on him? Actually, I always figured him for a Boldavian mix (with some other ethnicity- Flaemish or Alphatian, perhaps). The only "info" on J B-M (however indirect) would be in CM7: The Tree of Life, where the evil sorceror Moorkroft Elvensbane (J B-M's distant cousin) is described. He is the sorceror who drove the Feadiels out of the Sylvan Realm centuries ago. Both products were done by Bruce Heard, so there's your connection. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:11:30 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> Yeah- where are all the Scotts? (My grandmother's side of the family is >> of Scott Clan descent). I've a great map of all the clan holdings in >> Scotland, with their coats of arms. Seems to me there's plenty of non- Mc >> and Macs there (although it also seems to me that the Macfarlane clan had >> quite a bit of land between all the various families...) > >Todd's people? > >Whats the difference between Mc and Mac(if any)? What do are other >scottish names like? There may be a very small amount of difference - for instance all "Mc" and "Mac" names are very definitely one or the other, never both - but as far as I know, there's not a lot of difference. Other scots names... hmm, I find it hard to think of any now that you ask, thought they surround me on all sides. ;-) Let's see: there's Budge, Colquhoun (sp?), Scott, Campbell, Tait, Stewart, Burns, Murdoch, Shearer. Some Orkney names (sort of Scottish but not quite): Moffat, Flett, Bews, Rendall, Harcus, Grieve, Marwick. I think I classified them right, but I'm not sure. Anyway, there are hundreds and thousands more, but it's hard (at least for me) to see any trends or "rules". >Why dont you scotts make up some stuff on Klantyre culture? Well, that's a nice idea. Are there any other scots out there on the list other than those who've already confessed to their scottish blood in this thread? ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:16:26 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 Dave Brohman wrote: >> I was just reading through the recipe for Haggis in Joshuan's Almanac, >> and, being Scottish myself, I found it quite amusing. Surely there must >> be someone out there who doesn't balk at the thought of eating it? It >> isn't that bad, you know! :-) > > I love it myself. Of course, I have Scottish blood on me, err, I mean > in me... FINALLY, a (semi) non-scot who likes haggis... > Actually, Mc is almost always Irish rather than Scottish but, with all > the movement between the two there is some crossover. However, one > cannot overstress the Mac prefix in Scottish names. It is very common > indeed. It must be remembered though that this is not Scotland by > Klantyre, and I guess that it is even more common among the people of > Klantyre. Interesting. You may be right - I was always told there wasn't much different other than the two distinct spellings. And I suppose you're right, Klantye isn't Scotland, but being based on Scotland is worth something. I think that, being based on Scotland, it tends to be the most stereotypical aspects that come through (Mc/Mac, haggis, kilts, tartan - what, no bagpipes? ;-). As for myself, my name doesn't have a Mc, I eat haggis but once a year or so, I don't own and have never worn a kilt or any kind of tartan and I don't play the bagpipes - though I do like most of the above. :-) And yet I'm still Scottish... > P.S. - Go see "The 5th Element"...NOW! I was considering it since it comes out over here on Friday, which is my birthday. Is it worthy? :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 20:19:44 -0400 From: Urklore The Iron Subject: [Mystara] Netbook Is anyone compiling another Mystara Netbook? ************************************************************************ * Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord * * Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) * * Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord * * Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the NetHOARD, Keeper of 79 RPG Systems * * Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling * * Hot Chocolate King, "Welcome", "You've got Mail", ROBOTECH Master * * Official Tiac "SENIOR" Customer Support/Web Team Employee! * * Muad'dib Disciple, "Predacons TERRORIZE!" "Maximals MAXIMIZE!" * * "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" * * "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." * * "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" UNIX Neophyte * * "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never ever lie * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:48:46 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > >> Another thought struck me while looking through PC3 the other night - >> what is it about us Scots that many Mystara writers decide to place an >> estranged or fleeing or whatever Klantrian in their setting?! Not only >> is there one in Oenkmar, there's even one in Undersea! ;-) > >Having Scottish ancestry myself, I can sympathize with your sentiment. :) > >In all fairness, though, I don't think it is a dig at Scotland, >necessarily, as it is simply (IMO) a natural result of the nature of >Klantyre. I mean, let's face it, it's not much more hospitable than say, >Boldavia. All those nasty undead running around, not to mention hostile >mages. No no, I wasn't taking offense at it. I just thought it was a wee bit funny. And on the other hand there is a Scottish tradition of emigration (mostly to Canada but also America), so it's only natural to have Klatrians all over the place... >> And finally, I know that "Mc" and "Mac" are common in Scottish names, >> but I think they might be just a tad over-stressed... Most of the >> people I know don't have a "Mc" at the beginning... > >Yeah- where are all the Scotts? (My grandmother's side of the family is >of Scott Clan descent). I've a great map of all the clan holdings in >Scotland, with their coats of arms. Seems to me there's plenty of non- Mc >and Macs there (although it also seems to me that the Macfarlane clan had >quite a bit of land between all the various families...) Yes, there *are* a fair few Mcs and Macs, but what I was trying to say is that not everyone has to be one of them - like Scott, as you say. There are loads of other good Scottish names. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:33:28 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis > And I suppose you're right, Klantye isn't Scotland, but being based on > Scotland is worth something. I think that, being based on Scotland, it > tends to be the most stereotypical aspects that come through (Mc/Mac, > haggis, kilts, tartan - what, no bagpipes? ;-). As for myself, my name > doesn't have a Mc, I eat haggis but once a year or so, I don't own and > have never worn a kilt or any kind of tartan and I don't play the > bagpipes - though I do like most of the above. :-) And yet I'm still > Scottish... Hi everyone I'm trying to catch up on my e-mail, and it's not gonna happen soon, but I wanted to comment on this. As far as haggis, I've never tried it, it's just the thought that's disgusting (but then again, so is thinking about sausauges of any sort, eeeewwwwww). As for bagpipes, of course the people of Klantyre play them! Check PWA3 p. 204 (what's especially scary is that it took me only 30 seconds to find that passage). Of course the stereotypical features of every culture are included in any national description for Mystara. Also, remember that it is based on historical Scotland more than modern. After all, i live in the heart of America's "Wild West," but I have never touched a handgun, ridden a horse, or chewed tobacco (double eeeewwwwwwwwww!), and I refuse to say "ain't" or "dude"-- my life as a somewhat normal resident of the Southwestern U.S.A. is nothing like one in Cimmaron, and the difference here is a mere century. Is there much in particular that distinguishes a modern Scot from anyone else? As for the initial question, I'm not sure about Oenkmar, but how could Jim Bambra have resisted putting an absent-minded man in a kilt in Undersea who changes people into cats? It's just too perfect:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:39:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Emerondians A while ago someone posted some theories on the Emerondians (Gabriele Ferri? sp?) Somethin about the Emerondians actually being plants. Does anyone have that post? Could someone send it to me? Thanks. Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:33:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > Yes, there *are* a fair few Mcs and Macs, but what I was trying to say > is that not everyone has to be one of them - like Scott, as you say. > There are loads of other good Scottish names. I read in a Pendragon RPG(by Chaosium) accessory that common clan names in scottland often begin with Mc or O. Mc actually meaning "son of" and O meaning decendant within 4 generations. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 14:21:14 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis At 15.54 06/06/97 +0100, you wrote: >I was just reading through the recipe for Haggis in Joshuan's Almanac, >and, being Scottish myself, I found it quite amusing. Surely there must >be someone out there who doesn't balk at the thought of eating it? It >isn't that bad, you know! :-) When I went to Scotland last summer I ate Haggis a few times and I found it quite good. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 14:37:18 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Battle Rules At 11.12 06/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >has anyone looked at the d.o.e. thyatis pc guide >where they talk about a new system for battles? >armor is not included when determining ac >simply because armor will not help you avoid an attack >it does protect your body if you get hit though >therefore this system assigns an armor value (av) to each type of armor > But IMO armor doesn't help to avoid an attack also in the standard system. Now I explain better what I mean: if I have AC 3 and my opponent hits AC 4 it doesn't necessarily mean that he missed me or that I avoided the attack, maybe he did hit, but the armor absorbed the blow preventing me from being wounded. I developed this theory on how AC works when one of my PC (an elf) pretended of not losing the concentration needed to cast a spell because he wasn't wounded by his opponents. Not hurted doesn't mean not hit and if you're hit you lose the spell you're casting. To determine if the opponent's blow misses or if it strikes without causing damage I use the unarmored AC. Let's suppose, for example, that you have AC=3 and unarmored AC=9, if your opponent hits less that AC9 than he doesn't it you, from 9 to 4 he hits without causing damage, more than 3 you're wounded. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #96 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #97 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, June 11 1997 Volume 02 : Number 097 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 15:06:38 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name At 16.16 06/06/97 +0000, you wrote: >At 05.04 06/06/97 PDT, Herve wrote: >>If you read the almanac for 1014 (which I'm sure you did) you know that >>there will be a new Karameikan expedition to the HW in 1015. Well, they >>will be using a skyship (the first they build) to send >>a team of explorers and diplomats to the HW. This would be a joint >>expedition from the Karameikans and their allies of the NACE. >> >>Well, telling more would be spoiling the fun of the surprise, but >>I'm trying to figure out a name for that skyship that would reflect >>that sense of unity/alliance of peoples. > >I think Concordia (as Thorf suggested) is a good choice, but if u want to >try another one, why not Unity Ship, or Pacem, or Societas (sort of Alliance >in latin) ... or Arcadia (which is Captain Harlock's ship, BTW!!) :-) >Alternatively, you could name it with the Traladaran equivalent (who knows >Rumanian or Slavic here?) I can try with some Russian, but I'm not sure about the english equivalent of cyryllic letters. Maybe our Russish friend can be of more help. ... Wait! I found a Slovenian-Italian dictionary among my books (BTW: I don't speak Slovenian, only a bit of Russish). They don't use cyrillic alphabet. Let's see: Unity: enotnost, enota Alliance: zaveza, zveza Peace: mir Friendship: (.. better if I don't write it.. :) Harmony: harmonija I think Mir is good, though it's also the name of the real world Russian space station. BTW: Soyuz in Russian means something like unity/alliance IIRC. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:34:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Boese Subject: [Mystara] A few random ideas Here's what I get for not posting for a few weeks - a backlog of ideas. :) I was thinking about Glantrian wines while reading "Wine for Dummies", and got the idea for a certain winery that adds a touch more magic than usual... "Champagne du Animal Control", anybody? (Of course, the word "Champagne" is an import from Laterre, originally referring to a certain region there noted for its sparkling wines. There are quite a few other wine terms that have come to Mystara the same way; Port, Sherry, etc.) This directly contradicts some of the canon information, but I was wondering... what if the Nucleus of the Spheres didn't drain magic from Mystara, but from all of Mystaraspace, creating sargassos (magic-dead zones of wildspace) every time it's used? The "Day of Dread" would have come about when a planet-sized sargasso formed right in Mystara's orbit... this would also help explain why there's so little spelljamming traffic in Mystaraspace. I had another idea to explain that lack of traffic - spelljamming helms work differently in Mystaraspace than in most other crystal spheres. There are two main differences - things fall in the same direction on both sides of the gravity plane, and air isn't automatically kept in an "envelope" - if the ship isn't airtight, the crew takes a quick lesson in how to breathe vacuum. (I'm thinking of the rules from "Champions of Mystara", if you're wondering.) Although Mystaran skyship engineers are aware of the difficulties in building voidships, most visitors to the sphere tend to either leave very quickly or simply leave a ship filled with corpses near the spherewall. Using that third idea, I'm working on an adventure plot... Or at least an entry for the next Almanac. :) A gnomish-crewed Angelship finds Mystaraspace, and manages to make the ship mostly air-tight when they find all their air disappearing.. (Mind you, all their neat inventions in the cargo deck get trashed when they fall to the "ceiling".) Using their Planetary Locator, they limp to Mystara and crash-land, conveniently, in the mountains between Sind and Glantri. After some adventurers are hired to investigate the crashed skyship, and the news spreads about it, Prince Kol decides that he wants it. Strangely enough, he's able to retrieve it simply by sending a small horde - apparently nobody else had such a force in the area. Unfortunately (for Kol, at least), after the Kobold Prince tries it out for the first time, a greedy little tribe of kobolds steal the ship - tossing the spell-less Kol unceremoniously overboard. Kol, after he was found and healed up, was naturally furious. He posted rewards for the capture of the ship or clan, hired adventurers, and so on... with no results. The happy little kobolds on the ship, on the other hand, were having a grand ol' time, raiding, looting, capturing prisoners, tossing their garbage on unsuspecting elves below... until the Day of Dread grounds them, and they almost get arrested by the local hin (they got around a lot..). After almost getting lynched, the shaman manages to decipher some of the gnomes' writings, and Kol's notes, and realizes there's a whole world above the Skyshield... Comments, opinions, suggestions? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca Unofficial Official Keeper of the Unofficial Official Timeline of Mystara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:52:41 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random ideas In a message dated 97-06-08 18:45:39 EDT, you write: << I was thinking about Glantrian wines while reading "Wine for Dummies", and got the idea for a certain winery that adds a touch more magic than usual... "Champagne du Animal Control", anybody? >> Of course, that would be "Champagne d'Animal Control", to be more correct. You can also throw in Chateau Lafifite-Rotschild, and Boisjoli-Nouveau, both from Savage Coast's Renardie. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:07:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Haven Almanac Entry... In a message dated 97-06-07 03:03:27 EDT, you write: << Ive presented the faerie as more material creatures and spirits as rather immaterial. I could change that though. What are everybody elses opinoin on this? Haavard >> Well, IMC, the "Faeries" of the Spirit Plane are actually a mixture of groups... Sidhe, Pixies, Sprites and Elves from Mystara who retreated into the Spirit Plane from various regions during various eras. There are also lots of other groups IMC that retreated into the Spirit Plane, including Giants, Beastmen, Nagas and others. Some have a friendly relationship with the native Spirits, others are more inimical. The Spirit Plane is many different things, and there are many different regions of the Spirit Plane that have gates, wormholes and nodes to Mystara (that's my interpretation of the changing nature of the Spirit Plane on the Ethengar Steppe; there are an incredible number of nodes to a wide range of areas of the Spirit Plane, thus unless a Shaman is very, very careful, he goes to different regions every time he goes there). Other regions of Mystara that have more stable ties to the Spirit Plane IMC are the Atruaghin Lands, the Isle of Dawn, the Northern Reaches (home to the Alfar, IMC a Spirit World version of Sidhe), the Jungle Coast of Davania, and numerous other areas. Some have more stable relations to the Spirit Plane than others (for example, the nodes between the Northern Reaches and the Spirit Plane almost exclusively lead to Alfreik, the Land of the Northern Elves). But then again, all this is IMC... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:25:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Vorloi clan In a message dated 97-06-07 12:37:58 EDT, you write: << I'm unclear about this thing. Is Vorloi clan Thyatian or Traladaran? The name sounds Traladaran, but GAZ1 said that Philip Vorloi came along with Stefan Karameikos when he came to the land. Aleksei >> IMC I always had Philip as a Thyatian follower of Stefan who was already based in Traladara; he had married into the native Vorloi clan and been "adopted" as a Traladaran. I've got it somewhere in my histories, I'll have to check on it... he has had two children, Grygori and Marianna (one a Traladaran name, the other Thyatian), so presumably his wife was likely Traladaran. The module in which the Traladaran Clans were introduced (B6 The Veiled Society) is unclear on the nature of the clans; the Vorloi is seen as an "upstart clan", but this could mean many things. The names of the Vorlois in the module run the gamut from Romanian, Greek and Italian (but then, so did most of them in the module). So really, the only persons who might know the Canonical nature of the Vorlois would be David Cook and Aaron Allston. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:40:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fenswick-Laterre Link??? In a message dated 97-06-07 11:04:59 EDT, you write: << BTW, does it seem to anyone that John Beaumarys-Moorcroft is of the same stock as the people of Fenswick? Is there any more info on him? Aleksei >> In GAZ 3 it states that John Beaumarys-Moorkroft, cousin to Lord Moorkroft Elvensbane is the Duke of Hightower, placing his lands smack dab between Fenswick and Blackhill, so I would surmise that he would be either of Alphatian or Fenswick (Anglish?) descent. He is only mentioned in passing in the KoM, as an ally of the Prince of Krondahar. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 18:47:16 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Emerondians On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > A while ago someone posted some theories on the Emerondians (Gabriele > Ferri? sp?) Somethin about the Emerondians actually being plants. They're spies? For who? Some intergalactic empire, would be my guess... Oh- wait... you meant they're _plants_, not plants. Sorry. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 19:26:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Fenswick-Laterre Link??? On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > In GAZ 3 it states that John Beaumarys-Moorkroft, cousin to Lord Moorkroft > Elvensbane is the Duke of Hightower, placing his lands smack dab between > Fenswick and Blackhill, so I would surmise that he would be either of > Alphatian or Fenswick (Anglish?) descent. He is only mentioned in passing in > the KoM, as an ally of the Prince of Krondahar. True, but that is only his most recent acquisition (also, according to PWA1012, he is now the Archduke of Westheath. Which, IMO, is what should be, and not that stuff in G:KoM). He has played off of most every House on his way up the ladder of success. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:29:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random ideas On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: ><< I was thinking about Glantrian wines while reading "Wine for Dummies", > and got the idea for a certain winery that adds a touch more magic than > usual... "Champagne du Animal Control", anybody? >> >Of course, that would be "Champagne d'Animal Control", to be more correct. Actually, this reminds me of a point brought up a while ago - "Champagne du Stomp", from the D&D module 'Rahasia'. IMC, it was produced by a (now long defunct) cut-rate Darokinian winery that did its best to seem upscale, snobbish, and Glantrian, the better to sell its wines across the Known World... of course, they never got any repeat sales. (It /was/ the worst of the three wines in the module. :) ) >You can also throw in Chateau Lafifite-Rotschild, and Boisjoli-Nouveau, both >from Savage Coast's Renardie. :) True enough - any suggestions on what magic their wines might have? Or any other Mystaran "wine potions"? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 23:03:46 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random ideas Daniel Boese wrote: > > This directly contradicts some of the canon information, but I was > wondering... what if the Nucleus of the Spheres didn't drain magic from > Mystara, but from all of Mystaraspace, creating sargassos (magic-dead > zones of wildspace) every time it's used? The "Day of Dread" would have > come about when a planet-sized sargasso formed right in Mystara's orbit... > this would also help explain why there's so little spelljamming traffic in > Mystaraspace. I like this idea! I think it could be mixed-in with the canon material. I was looking for good reasons for the "Day of Dread" and mixing spelljamming. I will give it some thought! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 06:17:06 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Klantyre and Haggis In a message dated 97-06-06 14:19:29 EDT, Thorfinn writes: << Surely there must be someone out there who doesn't balk at the thought of eating it? It isn't that bad, you know! :-) >> Indeed. I had a taste of haggis at Harrods the last time I went to Euro-Gencon -- not bat at all. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:04:31 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Interupted Spell Casting > I developed this theory on how AC works when one of my > PC (an elf) pretended of not losing the concentration needed > to cast a spell because he wasn't wounded by his opponents. > Not hurted doesn't mean not hit and if you're hit you lose the > spell you're casting. if your spell casting is interupted do you lose the spell from your memory? i used to think that then one day while reading about it in the PH i got the impression that if distracted you cant cast the spell but its still in your memory so you can try to cast it again i think is says something like you have to fully cast the spell to unlock the pattern to release the magic does anyone else see it the same way? - --- -- -- Crip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 06:24:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: re: [Mystara] Netbook Form: Reply Text: (17 lines follow) #s 1,2,3,4,5,6&7 are all available at members.aol.com/b1bard/mystara send submissions for the next few to either: cah2774@texcom-hood.army.mil (no attachments! if the entire text fits in a message, then send it here!) or B1bard@aol.com - send attachments to this one... LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 Original text: (19 lines follow) From URKLORE @ SMTP (Urklore The Iron) {urklore@tiac.net}, on 6/7/97 19:19: Is anyone compiling another Mystara Netbook? ************************************************************************ * Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord * * Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) * * Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord * * Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the NetHOARD, Keeper of 79 RPG Systems * * Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling * * Hot Chocolate King, "Welcome", "You've got Mail", ROBOTECH Master * * Official Tiac "SENIOR" Customer Support/Web Team Employee! * * Muad'dib Disciple, "Predacons TERRORIZE!" "Maximals MAXIMIZE!" * * "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" * * "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." * * "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" UNIX Neophyte * * "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never ever lie * ************************************************************************ Use Proportional Font: true Previous From: URKLORE @ SMTP (Urklore The Iron) {urklore@tiac.net} Previous To: MYSTARA- @ SMTP {mystara-l@lists.io.com} Original to: MYSTARA- @ SMTP {mystara-l@lists.io.com} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:24:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random ideas Rob Richard wrote: >> This directly contradicts some of the canon information, but I was >>wondering... what if the Nucleus of the Spheres didn't drain magic from >>Mystara, but from all of Mystaraspace, creating sargassos (magic-dead >>zones of wildspace) every time it's used? The "Day of Dread" would have >>come about when a planet-sized sargasso formed right in Mystara's orbit... >>this would also help explain why there's so little spelljamming traffic in >>Mystaraspace. >I like this idea! Thankee kindly. :) >I think it could be mixed-in with the canon material. Well, mixed-in, yes, but it still directly contradicts the datum about the effects of the Day of Dread ending at the skyshield, and depending on Mystara's orbital speed, the fact that magic fails everywhere on Mystara at once. Don't let these caveats stop you from using the idea if you want to, though. I'm just making sure you know what canon it contradicts. :) A few possible modifications to the idea: a) Damocles was somehow held together magically - perhaps its civilization was remnants of the mostly-unknown-on-Mystara "Earth" and "Water" groups from Old Alphatia. One day, the planet ran into a large sargasso, which cancelled the magics holding the planet together... b) Mystaraspace is quite the dangerous little crystal sphere, what with all those sargassos, meteors and asteroids from poor Damocles, and freezing temperatures (and depending on your campaign, changes to incoming spelljammers' gravity and air envelopes). There are probably thousands, if not millions, of defunct ships floating around wildspace... why hasn't anybody found them? Perhaps somebody, maybe an Immortal, has, and is collecting them for their own purposes... c) I'm not quite sure how this one would work, but what if the magic- dead regions weren't actually sargassos, but were fragments of space from the Beagle's home dimension? The Nucleus might be trying to go home - - or at least bring home to it... >I was looking for good reasons for the "Day of Dread" and mixing >spelljamming. I will give it some thought! Go right ahead. If you come up with any ideas of your own, please, share them with us. :) Opinions, Comments, Suggestions? - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:24:38 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Interupted Spell Casting On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: >> I developed this theory on how AC works when one of my >> PC (an elf) pretended of not losing the concentration needed >> to cast a spell because he wasn't wounded by his opponents. >> Not hurted doesn't mean not hit and if you're hit you lose the >> spell you're casting. > >if your spell casting is interupted do you lose the spell from your memory? >i used to think that >then one day while reading about it in the PH >i got the impression that if distracted you cant cast the spell >but its still in your memory so you can try to cast it again >i think is says something like you have to fully cast the spell >to unlock the pattern to release the magic Talking of Interrupted Spell Casting, we never used that rule in D&D and I've been looking for it lately but can't find it. Can someone point me to it in the Basic or Rules Cyclopedia please? I'm starting to think I imagined the rule... Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 12:12:53 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Interupted Spell Casting CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: > > > I developed this theory on how AC works when one of my > > PC (an elf) pretended of not losing the concentration needed > > to cast a spell because he wasn't wounded by his opponents. > > Not hurted doesn't mean not hit and if you're hit you lose the > > spell you're casting. > > if your spell casting is interupted do you lose the spell from your memory? > i used to think that > then one day while reading about it in the PH > i got the impression that if distracted you cant cast the spell > but its still in your memory so you can try to cast it again > i think is says something like you have to fully cast the spell > to unlock the pattern to release the magic > > does anyone else see it the same way? > > --- -- -- Crip IMC if you are distracted you can't cast the spell, but you don't even forget it. However if the spell is written on a scroll, the scroll become useless. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:08:45 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Interupted Spell Casting >Talking of Interrupted Spell Casting, we never used that rule in D&D and >I've been looking for it lately but can't find it. Can someone point me >to it in the Basic or Rules Cyclopedia please? I'm starting to think I >imagined the rule... This is one of those rules last seen in the 1981 version of the Basic (red book) rules. It got left out (along with the healing by resting rule and others) in the 1983 update when TSR did a rewrite for a lower reading comprehension level and forgot to include all the details. IMC (and working only with "between the lines" inferences from the 1983 rules at the time), the spell was lost from memory if the caster was meleed even if the attack didn't hit. IIHITDOA (new abbreviation - if I had it to do over again) I would follow the example of combat from the 1981 rules and warn a caster who had lost initiative that his opponents might attack and might disrupt his spell and give him a chance to change his intentions. BTW, my interpretation has always been that a melee attack disrupts concentration whether the die indicates a hit or not because the caster had to duck to avoid the blow. On the other hand a missile attack may have simply missed through no action of the caster and a miss by a missile does not disrupt concentration. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:04:40 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > I can try with some Russian, but I'm not sure about the english equivalent > of cyryllic letters. Maybe our Russish friend can be of more help. > ... > Wait! I found a Slovenian-Italian dictionary among my books (BTW: I don't > speak Slovenian, only a bit of Russish). They don't use cyrillic alphabet. > Let's see: > Unity: enotnost, enota > Alliance: zaveza, zveza As you pointed out below, Soyuz in Russian is like union or alliance. This word was the first one used in the name of USSR ;) Unity can also be 'edinost' > Peace: mir Same in Russian > Friendship: (.. better if I don't write it.. :) In Russian it's "druzhba"... where 'zh' is like the French 'j'. > Harmony: harmonija > Or 'garmoniya' in Russian. When Russians spell words that originated in foreign languages, 'h' is often replaced with 'g'. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:12:53 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] Lost Messages! Dear Mystarans: Due to the loss of an old email address which was, unfortunately, the address I was subscribed to MML with after Leroy rebuilt the list from scratch, I have /missed/ all the discussions and topics since Mid May. (I noticed things were too quiet, but I was busy...) I've fixed the problem, but now far out of touch! Anyway, I'm going to go through the digests, but if there was anything IMPORTANT being discussed (i.e. anything seriou regarding TSR and WoC) I'd appreciate it if someone could write to me DIRECTLY and fill me in on what's up. The address is in my sig. Thanks a bunch, Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:33:33 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name At 15.06 07/06/97 +0200, Fabrizio wrote: About the name of the Karameikan Ship >... >Wait! I found a Slovenian-Italian dictionary among my books (BTW: I don't >speak Slovenian, only a bit of Russish). They don't use cyrillic alphabet. >Let's see: >Unity: enotnost, enota >Alliance: zaveza, zveza >Peace: mir >Friendship: (.. better if I don't write it.. :) >Harmony: harmonija > >I think Mir is good, though it's also the name of the real world Russian >space station. Mir! That's it, definitely! But if u want to be politically correct (:-)), then i suggest Armonia (or Harmonija in Traladaran) is a good choice.. of course, there's always Concordia, as Thorf first suggested.. DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:01:22 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random ideas At 17.34 08/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > Here's what I get for not posting for a few weeks - a backlog of ideas. Hey! I was wondering where the heck you were in the last months! Thought you lost in one of those magekiller sargassos... ;) > This directly contradicts some of the canon information, but I was >wondering... what if the Nucleus of the Spheres didn't drain magic from >Mystara, but from all of Mystaraspace, creating sargassos (magic-dead >zones of wildspace) every time it's used? The "Day of Dread" would have >come about when a planet-sized sargasso formed right in Mystara's orbit... >this would also help explain why there's so little spelljamming traffic in >Mystaraspace. REALLY good idea!!! I've tried to answer to the post regarding Sjr sent a few weeks ago, but seems it never arrived. Anyway, i'm a Spelljammer fan too, and i'm trying to write something about using Sjr and Mystara, and this idea of yours fits really well.. > I had another idea to explain that lack of traffic - spelljamming helms >work differently in Mystaraspace than in most other crystal spheres. There >are two main differences - things fall in the same direction on both sides >of the gravity plane, and air isn't automatically kept in an "envelope" - >if the ship isn't airtight, the crew takes a quick lesson in how to >breathe vacuum. (I'm thinking of the rules from "Champions of Mystara", if >you're wondering.) Although Mystaran skyship engineers are aware of the >difficulties in building voidships, most visitors to the sphere tend to >either leave very quickly or simply leave a ship filled with corpses near >the spherewall. YES!! That is my idea too. The physics rules work differently in Mystaraspace (that's to say, according to CoM and not to Sjr boxed set). Also, there is a main difference between the spelljamming worlds and Mystara: Mystarans don't know how to build spelljamming engines! They can craft skyships with Fly spells and other magics, but these methods are a bit obsolete in comparison to Spelljammers. That's why they don't have yet prowled the space extensively: it's rather difficult and it takes too much time to build skyships to risk them sending them out of the Skyshield. Besides, keep in mind that Mystara Skyshield is different from other world's atmosphere: it cannot be penetrated from the inside to the outside so easily (or maybe this is just a problem that only non-spelljamming ships have?) and so it's not easy to go into space and explore it! As for the kobolds idea, it's interesting, but i think that kobolds don't deserve discovering there are other worlds up there in the first place: they're such a mean race...:) (how racist i am...:)) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:17:16 +0000 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas At 15.24 09/06/97 -0400, Daniel wrote: > Well, mixed-in, yes, but it still directly contradicts the datum about >the effects of the Day of Dread ending at the skyshield, and depending >on Mystara's orbital speed, the fact that magic fails everywhere on >Mystara at once. > Don't let these caveats stop you from using the idea if you want to, >though. I'm just making sure you know what canon it contradicts. :) > A few possible modifications to the idea: > a) Damocles was somehow held together magically - perhaps its >civilization was remnants of the mostly-unknown-on-Mystara "Earth" and >"Water" groups from Old Alphatia. One day, the planet ran into a large >sargasso, which cancelled the magics holding the planet together... I assumed Damocles (i have to find a better name for it, though) ceased to be during the Wrath of the Immortals, and the asteroid that crashed on Glantri was a large chunk of it. The rest of the planet went in 2 different directions: one has become Mercury (Rathanos) and the other Pluto (Alphaks or Hel) However, the reason of the disaster is unknown to me, so i think this explanation can work... > b) Mystaraspace is quite the dangerous little crystal sphere, what with >all those sargassos, meteors and asteroids from poor Damocles, and >freezing temperatures (and depending on your campaign, changes to >incoming spelljammers' gravity and air envelopes). There are probably >thousands, if not millions, of defunct ships floating around >wildspace... why hasn't anybody found them? Perhaps somebody, maybe an >Immortal, has, and is collecting them for their own purposes... Oh, and that brings forth a major problem i'm having: is Mystara a Crystal Sphere? If u want to use it with Spelljammer, it's OK to adopt its view of the prime, but i think it could be more interesting if we don't extend the Crystal Spheres to all the Multiverse. Another pet hypothesis could be that the Phlogiston fills only a BIIIG Nebula located far away from Mystara, and that within the Phlogiston Nebula things work according to Spelljammer rules (air envelope, gravitiy wells, travel from sphere to sphere), whereas therest of the Multiverse is just like Mystaraspace (that's to say, it's cold, without air envelope around ships, no bidirectional gravity fields, and no crystal spheres whatsoever). You could link the Nebula and Mystaraspace via a magical Wormhole (DS9 style) that when discovered will inhevitably cause a major war for its control, cause it connects directly Mystaraspace and one of the Major Three Spheres of the Nebula (Oerth, Krynn or Toril... btw, Krynn is now cut off the rest of the universe, isn't it?) and it's a great deal for merchants and any space traveler... Just my personal ideas... > c) I'm not quite sure how this one would work, but what if the magic- >dead regions weren't actually sargassos, but were fragments of space >from the Beagle's home dimension? The Nucleus might be trying to go home >- or at least bring home to it... According to my hypothesis, the Beagle home planet is in the Multiverse, not in another dimension, only very very far from here, where magic didn't work. They entered a sort of warp speed but some magic fields interfered with their mechanic engines and caused them to be thrust 70.000 LY away from home (eh eh... remind you of something?) and landed on Mystara, becoming stranded forever. Anyway, your idea is thrilling and acceptable as well, and may lead to a run to save Mystara from colliding with another reality, resulting in the annihilation of one of the two (or possibly both...) worlds. Do you know what happens when matter and anti-matter touch each other? That's the idea. Ok, that's all for now! Have a good time! DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:22:37 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Karameikan ship name On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > >I think Mir is good, though it's also the name of the real world Russian > >space station. > > Mir! That's it, definitely! But if u want to be politically correct (:-)), > then i suggest Armonia (or Harmonija in Traladaran) is a good choice.. of > course, there's always Concordia, as Thorf first suggested.. > Why would Mir be politically incorrect? It's an everyday Russian word, nothing special. And I doubt that the Russian government is going to sue us over copyright issues ;) Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:16:03 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] WotC's TSR Survey i thought id let you know last week i sent an email to the wotc customer service dept i asked them where to send questions regarding tsr products i asked if they were going to set up a new email box for something like that i also asked if they would rather recieve letters than email basically what would be easier for them the response i recieved was a copy of a their small faq which answered nothing of what i asked but i have just found a tsr survey by wotc it asks many questions including what is your favorite world you have purchased products from which world are you concerned about ____________ what do you think about ____________ it ends by asking you for three suggestions for wotc this survey can be found at http://www.wizards.com/Misc/TSRSurvey.html - --- -- -- Crip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:23:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > I assumed Damocles (i have to find a better name for it, though) ceased to > be during the Wrath of the Immortals, and the asteroid that crashed on > Glantri was a large chunk of it. The rest of the planet went in 2 different > directions: one has become Mercury (Rathanos) and the other Pluto (Alphaks > or Hel) Interesting. I think I've seen this proposed here before, and I certainly recall the Damocles thing in the Gold Box. What does everyone else think? Does this sound like a good idea? If so, we could have some Mystaran astronomer notice the new planets far off in the distance in the Almanac this year. > According to my hypothesis, the Beagle home planet is in the Multiverse, not > in another dimension, only very very far from here, where magic didn't work. That's the way I work it too. I put the Beagle's home territory near the Hub of the Galaxy, many millions of billions of light years from Mystara (an unimportant little planet located in the distant western spiral arm of the milky way galaxy) :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:19:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > > > I assumed Damocles (i have to find a better name for it, though) ceased to > > be during the Wrath of the Immortals, and the asteroid that crashed on > > Glantri was a large chunk of it. The rest of the planet went in 2 different > > directions: one has become Mercury (Rathanos) and the other Pluto (Alphaks > > or Hel) > > Interesting. I think I've seen this proposed here before, and I certainly > recall the Damocles thing in the Gold Box. What does everyone else think? > Does this sound like a good idea? If so, we could have some Mystaran > astronomer notice the new planets far off in the distance in the Almanac > this year. > What DM mentions is detailed in the Gold Box. The exact date was never mentioend there, but I support the idea of Damocles' destruction happening during Wrath and that part of it becamer the Comet of Alphaks. I dont really like the idea of naming the planets after immortals though. I think we could just make up some bizarre fantasy names. Parts of Damocles became MMercury and MPluto(Mentioned in the Gold Box). Another part became Alphaks Comet, while others might still roam space. It has been speculated that some of them ended up in MOrient or Myoshima, but I'll leave that to the people working on those projects. Why did Damocles blow up? My theory is that most of Damocles civilization was part of a mighty Kingdom. The true power behind this kingdom was a powerful artifact known as the Swordworks. The Swordoworks drained power from Damocles' core and used that energy to power a great number of magical devises(possibly technomagical) on witch society depended greatly. However, deep below the mighty kingdom, there was a large amomunt of Blackrock(the same mineral which could be found in Blackmoor). Earthquakes in caves below the kindom caused the Blackrock to get in contact with the Swordworks. This in turn made the Swordworks absorb too much energy and the Planet exploded. Diviners had forseen this, but society depended so greatly on the artifact that the King chose to ignore the warnings. However a group of Damocleans who knew about the profecy abandoned the World before its destruction. > > According to my hypothesis, the Beagle home planet is in the Multiverse, not > > in another dimension, only very very far from here, where magic didn't work. > > That's the way I work it too. I put the Beagle's home territory near the Hub > of the Galaxy, many millions of billions of light years from Mystara (an > unimportant little planet located in the distant western spiral arm of > the milky way galaxy) :) > The Old Immortals' Box speculated on an empire in the hub, so that would make sense. Also since the suns there are so close, the amound of energy present could have some effect on magic. (Even if there is magic there it could be very different) Haavard. - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts..edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:22:26 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: [Mystara] TSR Worlds in Limbo I just received the GEN CON mag. On pg141 it gives times for seminars about worlds that are out of print. I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT DARKSUN WAS CANNED!!! I know about a reprint they did, I think it was redone into a new version??? But it went under too. Strange that Greyhawk, Dark Sun, and our loved Mystara went under after TSR tried to 'redo' the worlds. I wounder how the New DragonLance is doing or if its done? Anyway, and I quote; "These worlds are not dead, mearly lost in limbo for a time." "....help determine the destiny of your favorite lost realms...." Cool! I will make sure to visit these seminars. How many of you are going to GEN CON? ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #97 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #98 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, June 13 1997 Volume 02 : Number 098 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 18:25:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > I dont really like the idea of naming the planets after immortals though. > I think we could just make up some bizarre fantasy names. How about naming it after the astronomer who discovers it? > Parts of Damocles became MMercury and MPluto(Mentioned in the Gold Box). > Another part became Alphaks Comet, while others might still roam space. It > has been speculated that some of them ended up in MOrient or Myoshima, but > I'll leave that to the people working on those projects. As has been proposed elsewhere, the sudden appearance of the comet is somewhat unlikely. It would likely have been seen by someone before it hit- unless it was somehow magically moved by Alphaks (as also proposed). Which could lead to questions of how it got where it was. > The Old Immortals' Box speculated on an empire in the hub, so that would > make sense. Also since the suns there are so close, the amound of energy > present could have some effect on magic. (Even if there is magic there it > could be very different) That's where I got it, actually. I was once toying with playing a Galactic Federation campaign, where the "human" type race would be the green skinned people of the Beagle; the Rakasta would have a competing alliance; the Planar Spiders would have a mercantile empire; the Adaptors would be present; etc. Or the Oards could have a competing empire with the Federation (gee- where have I seen that before? :) As to the magic situation, my explanation for that wasn't that there was no magic present, simply that the populations had either fogrotten it over the eons, or evolved beyond the use of magic (using technology in its place)- at least for the most part. Certain races- notably the Planar Spiders, still used magic; though it's existence was scoffed at by the more "knowledgable" races. As for Immortals- I would have had more (and different) Immortals, with varying degrees of interest in the fortunes of the Empire and its surroundings. Many of them would have more direct interactions with the people than they do around Mystara (at least, that's what I was planning. Things such as organized religions, etc. as well as playing them sort of like the Mentzer Gold Box version- as superpowered cosmic scientists/explorers as opposed to gods. Anyway, I never got around to doing much with that campaign idea... :( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:20:12 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Urggrik-Graastok: The Future? Okay, so that's my take on the twisted forest and the environs of Graakhalia. A fragile ecosystem. I'll have more thoughts on the origins, culture, and society of the Dusanu in another post, but for now, here are some thoughts of mine- I mentioned (made a big point of, actually) the fragile nature of the ecosystem of the underground realm. So what happens when, say, a whole shitload of humanoid invaders from the Black Mountains, unknowledgable in the ways of Graakhalia, stumble in and boot out the current inhabitants? Well, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, right? And humanoids are notoriously damn slow learners. The natural result would seem to be that they would stumble across the Dusanu, and gradually be assimilated by them. They Dusanu would have to accomodate greatly increased populations, thus spreading their numbers and expanding their territory, and causing lots of problems for the humanoid intruders who aren't smart enough to get out of the way. Of course, the former inhabitants, now reduced to a fraction of their former strength (although PWA 1011 and 1012 have the Graakhalian populations at around 14,000... sure, it's a fraction of 25,000, but not as shabby as it is sometimes made out)... anyway, they'd be quick to take advantage of the situation, and perhaps use it to get their territory back in time. Which would shatter the Master's hold on the Plain of Fire... and once his major route for reinforcements is shattered, he'll have a tough time keeping his mitts on Sind... which, as our current almanac for 1014 has it, is having massive problems of its own, to date. Anyway, what do you all think? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:13:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Urggrik-Graastok: My take on it Deep within the heart of Graakhalia lay the twisted depths of Urggrik-Graastok, a dark forest filled with unknown horrors. Well, mostly unknown. :) I've been toying with this for a while now, and I finally worked out a scenario that I enjoy for this area that lay beneath the Plain of Fire. The story begins: Millenia ago, the depths of Graakhalia were untouched by the hand of outside civilization. It was a place of unknown and unknowable horrors- strange, twisted flora and fauna that survived in a deadly ecosystem. It was to this harsh realm that Gruugrakh gnolls, fleeing persecution from the west, found themselves in. Little more hospitable than the Plain of Fire above, it at least provided shelter and food for the refugees. Over time, they began to adapt to their new environs, their interest in the strange creatures they found there at a minimum. Not long after their arrival, a group of gnollish explorers stumbled across a vast cavern, full of lush plant life- much of it like that of the surface world, though adapted to the underground. They settled there, in the place they called Graastok, meaning "forest" in their tongue. It was a veritable haven for the beleaguered gnolls... for a time. They soon found that the forest held more horrors than even the outside caverns. Strange killer trees and horrid beasts stalked the gnollish intruders, slaughtering and feeding on them. The gnolls might have held out, and turned things around, but for a sudden, unexpected turn of events. During the season that later became known as Braatkrahl, certain of the beasts of the forest- creatures that possessed the qualities of plants and animals- began to release spores. A few survivors managed to escape back to other gnollish camps, bearing horror stories of their encounters, and bringing with them a new name for the cavern- Urggrik-Graastok (roughly "twisted forest", though english doesn't do justice to gnollish profanity). Gnollish bands break camp and move away from the area. A period of avoidance of the cavern begins. Later, a Gruugrakh wokan and his companions find themselves lost in the caverns, and find themselves in Urggrik-Graastok. Intrigued, the wokan manages to convince his companions to explore it, despite the rumors. In their explorations, they find a curiosity- a group of humanoid creatures living in the forest. Closely resembling gnolls, but seeming to be fungal in nature, the wokan begins a serious study of them. They are benevolent, unlike most of the creatures of the forest, and are seemingly related to similar creatures that have been found in the caverns- though not bestial like them. They even display a primitive intellect. Disaster strikes when one of the gnolls is slain by the creatures during Braatkrahl. Outraged, the others strike back at the perceived threat, as the wokan protests. They entreat him once more to leave, but he demurs, and is abandoned by his fellows. Shortly thereafter, the slain gnoll seemingly rises from the dead, bearing the fungal qualities of his slayers. The wokan is intrigued, and at first views them as a form of undead, but lacking the evil natures of others of undead kind. As he studies them, he realizes the folly of this. Further, he is intrigued by their ability to teach one another. They have picked up on certain mannerisms of the gnolls, and the wokan establishes a primitive form of communication with them. Over time, he begins to arrange the abduction of gnolls from nearby areas within Graakhalia, and oversees the process of turning them into fungoid creatures. He removes himself from the vicinity during the sporing season, and manages to avoid becoming a fungoid himself. Having overseen the creation of nearly a dozen of the creatures, and taught them gnollish ways, he brings the fungoids back to his camp, to display his accomplishment. The other gnolls, having heard tales of the creatures, won't listen to the wokan's tales, and attack he and the things on sight. Only a few remain. The wokan tries to rally them, to convince them they can grow strong and dominate the gnolls, but to no avail. The creatures turn on the wokan and assimilate him into their population. Soon, tales of gnollish camps that have been devastated, leaving no survivors, begin to be passed around Graakhalia. They are dismissed at first, but they come with more frequency, and the gnolls realize there is a problem. The fungoid creatures are on the rise, and war quickly breaks out between the two populations. Though at first driven back by the gnolls, the advent of Braatkrahl quickly turns the tide back in the favor of the fungoids. The war rages for years, with fluctuations in the success of both sides. Finally, a gnollish shaman, having studied the creatures, suggests the Gruugrakh flee into the upper caverns, far from the creatures. They do this, and over time, the attacks decrease in frequency, finally dwindling completely over a period of a few decades. The gnolls begin to move back into the lower caverns, but strictly avoid Urggrik-Graastok, a territory which has become taboo. Many centuries later, Sheyallia elves, fleeing northwards from the Serpent Peninsula, find themselves sharing territory with the Gruugrakh gnolls. Fighting breaks out between the two groups, and the elves begin to settle into areas not already claimed by gnolls. Among these are the caverns surrounding Urggrik-Graastok. They soon find the forest, and like the gnolls before them, hope to claim it for themselves, as it is reminiscent of their aboveground homelands. They find small groups of the fungoid creatures, and though they first mistake them for gnolls, soon realize their plantlike nature. They are intrigued by the creatures (now primitive once more, having forgotten any vestiges of gnollish culture they might have picked up), and study them. Again, like the gnolls before them, a few elves fall victim to the creatures' spores during Braatkrahl. The elves react differently however; more in tune with nature, they don't view this as a hostile act, but rather as a natural floral activity. Rather than attack the creatures, they allow them to remain, and fulfill their natural life cycles. Over time, the creatures, whom the elves call "Dusanu" (roughly, "Fungus People")- and to whom they equate a status among the underground flora that the Treants have in the above world- settle into a pattern of cooperation with the Sheyallia. Their remarkable learning ability proves intriguing, and the elves begin to teach them Sheyallian culture, and a form of sign language. They avoid the Dusanu during sporing season, and (aside from an occasional incident) do not antagonize them and cause the release of spores. The two races live in harmony in the forest. The attacks of the gnolls have become less frequent as the elves move into the forest, for they still fear to get too close. Unfortunately, this proves to be a bad thing for the Sheyallia. As the gnolls are the primary source of sustenance and reproduction for the Dusanu, the fungoids are forced first to increase the range of their attacks- venturing further into gnollish territory; an event that causes the gnolls (whose shamans still tell tales of the horrors of the fungus men) to retreat into the upper levels. Thus the Dusanu are forced to turn inwards for their food- to their "allies", the elves. The elves, unawares at first, are slow to respond to the threat. Though more powerful than the Dusanu, who disdain the use of weapons (though they use other tools), they quickly find themselves outnumbered, both by the Dusanu as well as the other horrors of the forest, which they have yet to fully tame. They begin to flee into the upper levels of Graakhalia, where they must fight the gnolls already present. The elves and gnolls eventually come to an accord, realizing they must share this space underground, and form a tentative peace (that eventually unifies them as a people). They initially form loose agreements to occupy separate areas of Graakhalia. Both groups mutually agree to avoid Urggrik-Graastok. Slowly, the two groups begin to venture forth once more, as the Dusanu menace dies down. The relatively short lifespans of the creatures insure that, without a constant influx of new specimens, they will gradually die down to subsistence levels. The elves make contact with them once more, and enter into cooperative talks with them. They agree to leave the areas around Urggrik-Graastok as a "neutral zone", with aggressive acts beyond the bounds being tantamount to war. The two peoples begin peaceful coexistence once more, with elves periodically venturing into the forest to partake of the fruits of that place, and to remember the wonders of the aboveground. The Dusanu, in exchange, benefit from elven culture and civilization (and later, Gnollish as well.) Both elves and gnolls take special precautions not to cause the Dusanu populations to rise beyond their natural, stable levels, preferring to allow nature to keep them at population levels the underground can handle. The threat of the Dusanu has taught the elves a valuable lesson in tampering with an established ecosystem. The three races live in relative peace for a long, long time. So long as nothing disturbs the natural ecology of Graakhalia, things remain (relatively) quiet... More on this in my next post... :) Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:33:03 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: [Mystara] Elven Names Hello all, I am in the process of creating an elven sphere. This sphere is going to be way off canon, though. I plan on incorporating Mystara info with spelljammer info. There will be a little technomagic and several new chracteristics for these elves. These elves will be more human than elven in attitude, because of a spin off of the Elf war. All will explain all this in detail in a few weeks when I get the history info written. What I need is a list of Elven clan names, general elf names, and some ideas for names of planets. I can turn out a lot of creative material, but I hate naming places, ships, cities, people, and clans. As soon as I decide on a name I change my mind and want to change it. Thanks, Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:04:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR Worlds in Limbo In a message dated 97-06-11 19:53:35 EDT, you write: << How many of you are going to GEN CON? >> I might go for a day or two if my wife lets me... :) Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:03:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas In a message dated 97-06-11 15:46:35 EDT, you write: << What DM mentions is detailed in the Gold Box. The exact date was never mentioend there, but I support the idea of Damocles' destruction happening during Wrath and that part of it becamer the Comet of Alphaks. I dont really like the idea of naming the planets after immortals though. I think we could just make up some bizarre fantasy names. Parts of Damocles became MMercury and MPluto(Mentioned in the Gold Box). Another part became Alphaks Comet, while others might still roam space. It has been speculated that some of them ended up in MOrient or Myoshima, but I'll leave that to the people working on those projects. Haavard >> Personally I would be against the destruction of /Damocles/ in the WotI; we already lost most of Alphatia (officially), so why destroy yet another opportunity for adventure and exploration? IMC, /Damocles/ is known as "Vanya" to the people of the Known World, due to the burnished-steel coloration seen by observers from Mystara. IMC it is a planet not unlike that of Titan in James P. Hogans novel Code of the Lifemaker. The dominant lifeform is biomechanical; there are a series of races of "Androids" that correspond to the various Human, Demihuman and Beastmen races; there are also a number of more alien races, which were the progenitors of the biomechanical lifeforms (actually, biomechanical might be misleading; they are entirely a mechanical lifeform, not cyborgs in the least, though a cyborg lifeform does exist). IMC /Damocles/ originated as a gigantic warship of an alien race from another galaxy; when it was struck by a massive, dimension warping weapon it slipped through space to Mystaras solar system and took up residence in the space of another planet, which was vaporised in the gravitic energies; the remnants of that planet collided with /Damocles/ and finished off the remaining civilization. Millions of years passed and the various robotic and android servants that remained evolved into new forms; the few survivors of the old race, the Aboleths and various allies, including Illithids and such ilk, survived deep below ground. During the Age of Blackmoor the Aboleths and Illithids ruled the surface and traded and warred with the peoples of Mystara, but their civilization fell in it's own version of the GRoF. Today the planet is much like Mystara, with numerous states at levels of technology ranging up to about the late renaissance. Again, all IMC. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:14:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas In a message dated 97-06-11 23:00:23 EDT, you write: << As to the magic situation, my explanation for that wasn't that there was no magic present, simply that the populations had either fogrotten it over the eons, or evolved beyond the use of magic (using technology in its place)- at least for the most part. Cthulhudrew>> IMC, which does not use the SJR system in the least, Magic is not ubiquitous throughout the Prime Material Plane (the "Universe"); some regions are strong in it (like the old Alphatian system), some regions have none (like the region of the Federation). In general, the energies that supply "magic" are dominated by the major element present in the solar system in question; thus, the great star of Sol in the Mystaran Solar System results in Energy being the most dominant form of magic. Large Gas Giants in other systems allow for Thought to be dominant, large planetary masses for Order (Matter), large ice or water masses for Time, and "anti-matter" for Entropy. This is not purely a "size" thing, as the stars are almost always the dominant "matter", it is a magical/mystical thing. Multi-star systems can have a very unusual magical nature, as does the Hub, which has a lot of overlapping or dead regions of magic. This makes magical travel throughout the Primne Plane a dangerous prospect for mortals (Immortal magic is not affected by the differences). Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:56:56 +-200 From: Gabriele Ferri Subject: Re: [Mystara] Emerondians Well, first of all, sorry for not talking too much, but school, waterpolo and my girlfriend don't allow me to spend much time playing D&D... Haavard Roenne Faanes asked me to send again what I told about Emerond... here it is: <> Well, I still haven't developed anything yet mainly because my PGs prefer playing in Karameikos. Just another tip: my Emerondian session ended up in a slaughter (my fault) because I wasn't able to think fast enough some nice traps to protect sleeping Emerondians, so be prepared! Enjoy! Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:34:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] City of Brass- Mystaros Look! :) Say, Mystaros (as well as other fellow Mystarans), I was going over GAZ2 last night, and noted the references to the fabled Ylari "City of Brass". It is seemingly located somewhere in Ylaruam, but it's shifting presence (at least, that's the sense I got of it from it's description in the adventure section) might make it a suitable candidate for a Haven type of setting- in Mystaros' campaign scenario. In other words, it occupies a sort of unique area both in the Prime Plane and the Spirit World, and only occasionally shows up in the Prime. Or another option, relating to the Chronomancy supplement, could be that it shifts back and forth through time (as is also implied in the description), and could thus be a sort of Temporal Anomaly. Just some thoughts... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:20:50 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? Hi everyone I've got a topic I'd like to throw out to the group: the WotC survey asked about AD&D worlds changing to MAGIC: The Gathering settings. It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of ever again seeing production. What do you all think? Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:02:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Patrick wrote: > It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so > intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be > converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although > it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to > oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of > ever again seeing production. What do you all think? I guess I'm not exactly sure what "changing [Mystara] to a Magic: the Gathering world" entails. Does it mean that we'll see M:tG- the World of Mystara card games? Does it mean that the wizards will become Planewalkers and that sorcery will summon Wooly Mammoths and Forest Apes? If so, I am not particularly fond of the idea at all... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:34:52 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? > I guess I'm not exactly sure what "changing [Mystara] to a Magic: the > Gathering world" entails. Does it mean that we'll see M:tG- the World of > Mystara card games? Does it mean that the wizards will become > Planewalkers and that sorcery will summon Wooly Mammoths and Forest Apes? I really don't know. It seems like either the game or the setting would have to be drastically revamped. > If so, I am not particularly fond of the idea at all... I'll second this, but I certainly hope that if WotC is looking at this as a possibility, they will make it better than simply smacking a Mystara label on the latest MAGIC expansion pack. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:08:24 +0800 (WST) From: Jason MURPHY Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Patrick wrote: > > > It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so > > intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be > > converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although > > it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to > > oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of > > ever again seeing production. What do you all think? > > I guess I'm not exactly sure what "changing [Mystara] to a Magic: the > Gathering world" entails. Does it mean that we'll see M:tG- the World of > Mystara card games? Does it mean that the wizards will become > Planewalkers and that sorcery will summon Wooly Mammoths and Forest Apes? > > If so, I am not particularly fond of the idea at all... > i have to agree with you here. I think it is much preferable to leave the Mystara world in the hand of the people who have a genuine interest in it, rather than let someone else bastardize it to whatever nefarious ends they see fit. Somehow the merging of Magic:The Gathering and Mystara under the guidance of WotC does not make me jump for joy. Jason tzbyxx@echidna.stu.cowan.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:47:36 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Patrick wrote: > > > It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so > > intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be > > converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although > > it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to > > oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of > > ever again seeing production. What do you all think? > > I guess I'm not exactly sure what "changing [Mystara] to a Magic: the > Gathering world" entails. Does it mean that we'll see M:tG- the World of > Mystara card games? Does it mean that the wizards will become > Planewalkers and that sorcery will summon Wooly Mammoths and Forest Apes? > > If so, I am not particularly fond of the idea at all... I didnt get into the baseball card thing, I had nothing to do Magic the Gathering, and I will NOT support MYSTARA the card game. If WOTC even try to transform MYSTARA in to a CARD GAME I will lose all respect for WotC. If MYSTARA is comes back again in a lesser format the world will die that much more. I say bring it back in GAZ form with Bruce and Allan as the directors or not at all. .....Sorry Im tired and need sleep. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:47:31 -0500 From: Enrique Pacheco Subject: [Mystara] Goodbye Since I am getting married next week I am going to have to temorarily suspend my subscription to the list. I want to thank everyone for the great amount of stuff I have learned and enjoyed and hope to be back soon. until later, - -- "Listen what people do to other souls They take their lives - destroy their goals." Heaven for everyone. Queen, 1995. Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:47:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Patrick wrote: > I really don't know. It seems like either the game or the setting would > have to be drastically revamped. That's what I'm not so sure about. Hopefully it would be the card game that needed revamping, and not Mystara, though. :) > I'll second this, but I certainly hope that if WotC is looking at this as a > possibility, they will make it better than simply smacking a Mystara label > on the latest MAGIC expansion pack. It would be kind of keen to whip out the artifact "Volospin's Dragonfly of Doom" though... ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 06:20:19 +0200 From: "J.R.S" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? At 19:34 12.06.97 -0700, you wrote: >> I guess I'm not exactly sure what "changing [Mystara] to a Magic: the >> Gathering world" entails. Does it mean that we'll see M:tG- the World of >> Mystara card games? Does it mean that the wizards will become >> Planewalkers and that sorcery will summon Wooly Mammoths and Forest Apes? > Hi Well i dont like this idia at all I really hope they will start up mystara again but as a card game NO WAY. JRS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:35:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Elven Names In a message dated 97-06-12 14:33:15 EDT, you write: << What I need is a list of Elven clan names, general elf names, and some ideas for names of planets. I can turn out a lot of creative material, but I hate naming places, ships, cities, people, and clans. As soon as I decide on a name I change my mind and want to change it. Thanks, Jay John7999@frontiernet.net >> If you want to be REAL Elvish, check out various Tolkien sources, notably The Languages of Middle Earth by Ruth S. Noel, A Guide to Middle Earth by Robert Foster, and any one of a number of ICE MERP sourcebooks, notably Elves. Can't get more Elvish than that. Also, you might consider using Norse, Anglo-Saxon or Celtic names, as people often associate Elves with those cultural groups... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:57:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] City of Brass- Mystaros Look! :) In a message dated 97-06-12 20:41:42 EDT, Cthulhudrew wrote: << Say, Mystaros (as well as other fellow Mystarans), I was going over GAZ2 last night, and noted the references to the fabled Ylari "City of Brass". It is seemingly located somewhere in Ylaruam, but it's shifting presence (at least, that's the sense I got of it from it's description in the adventure section) might make it a suitable candidate for a Haven type of setting- in Mystaros' campaign scenario. In other words, it occupies a sort of unique area both in the Prime Plane and the Spirit World, and only occasionally shows up in the Prime. Or another option, relating to the Chronomancy supplement, could be that it shifts back and forth through time (as is also implied in the description), and could thus be a sort of Temporal Anomaly. >> Sounds like a possibility... I favor an Efreeti City of Brass myself; thus, it would be found in either an Energy dominated Outer Plane or in the Elemental Plane of Fire IMC (or possibly even somewhere in the Spirit Plane, if not an Efreeti citadel). There is some sort of real myth about the City of Brass (I can't remember if it is in the Thousand and One Arabian Nights or not). It definitely would make for an exciting adventure one way or another... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:50:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? Here's the rest of the list of stuff... never got too far with these, I was still tweaking the Karameikos stuf when I stopped... Ylaruam Ylari Nomads Ylari Dervish Ylari Faris Makistani Sorcerer Magian Fire Worshippers Kin Assassin Lesser Efreet Greater Efreet Noble Efreet (LC) Djinn Manscorpion Blue Dragon Barimoor (LC) The Sparkling Spear (A) +4 vs Efreet, See Invisible Seal Ring of Al-Kalim (A) Curse of the Mummy (E Artifact) Desert (L) The Dead Place (LL) Glantri Glantrian Wizard Glantrian War Wizard Boldavian Vampire Skeletal Legions Gold Dragon Canine Protection Society Sire Malachie du Morais (LC) Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany (LC) Prince Jaggar von Dracenfels (LC) Prince Brannart McGregor (LC) Globe of the Radiance (A) Control Destiny (S) Gnomish Warbeast (AC) Flamenco Curse (E Creature) Alchemical Laboratory (L) Dracology (E Creature) Elemental Conjuration (E) Dreamlands (LL) Necromantic Potency (E) Truename (S) Witchcraft (S) Ierendi Ierendian Pirate Ierendian Merchantman Ierendian Warship White Island Ape White Island Priest Sea Dragon Dragon Turtle Gnomish Engine (AC) Honor Island (LL) Alfheim Alfheim Elves Chossum Merchant Red Arrow Warrior Long Runner Wizard Erendyl Artisan Mealidil Bard Grunalf Woodsman Feadiel Treekeeper Elven Horse Pooka Sprites Sidhe Elven Longsword (A) Elven Bow (A) Elven Cloak (A) Elven Boots (A) Urgham the Quiet (LC) Doriath Erendyl (LC) Tree of Life (A) Woodmastery (S) Thornbush (LL) Dragontree (LL) Stalkbrow (LL) Dreamland (LL) Turnclaw (LL) Ironbark (LL) Rockhome Rockhome Dwarves Buhrodar Priest Everast Administrator Hurwarf Miner Skarrad Technologist Syrklist Merchant Torkrest Soldier Wyrwarf Farmer Everast XV (LC) Denwarf the Dwarf-King (LC) Clanforge (A) Battlecry (Ins) Mount Everast (LL) Dengar (LL) Jhyrrad (LL) Karrak (LL) Northlands Norse Warriors Ostlander Gotar Soderfjord Berserker Vestlander Magician Norse Dwarf Modrigswerg Sorcerer Great Troll Linnorm Bog Doomed King Hord Dark-Eye (LC) Asgrim the Bowed (LC) Psa'gh (LC) Micro-Golems (AC) The Suit of Silver (A) Witch-Queen of Hel (LC) Runestone (E) Runic Wisdom (S) Trollheim (LL) The Great Marsh (LL) Falun Caverns (LL) Five Shires Hinlings Yallaran Hin Hero Hin Storyteller Hin Sheriff Hin Master Shire Fang Hin Pirates Hin Keeper Faerie Dragon Loberlinn Mulgor (LC) Crucible of Blackflame (A) Shire Pipeweed (A) Denial (Int) Minrothad Minrothian Guildsmen Guild Elsan Shipmaker Guild Verdier Woodcrafter Guild Hammer Smith Guild Quickhand Craftsman Guild Corser Merchant Minrothian Mercenary Marines Minrothian Privateers Blue Eel Agent Merchant-Prince of Minrothad Guildmaster Regent Pearl of Power (A) The Carven Oak (A) Sea Squall (S) Lycanthropy (E Creature) Shipyard of Minrothad Broken Lands Tharian Legionaire Tharian Horde Tharian Whelps Tharian War Machine (AC) Bad Juju (S) Darokin Daro Merchant Daro Duelist Daro Moneylender Itheldown Wand (A) Fair Trade (Int) Ethengar Ethengarian Hakomon Ethengarian Royal Guard Ethengarian Horse Battle Standard of the Great Khan (A) Spirit Guide (E) Shadow Elves Shadow Elf Spy Shadow Elf Shaman Shadow Elf Skinwing Rider Shadow Elf Soulstone (A) Atruaghin Atruaghin Brave Atruaghin Shaman Atruaghin Spirit Warrior Medicine Pouch (A) Thyatis Thyatian Senator Kerendan Cavalier Hattian Hound of Ares Retebian Skyknight Vyalian Forester Crown of the Emperors (A) Alphatia Alphatian Wizard Alphatian Guildmage Shraek Necromancer Aquan Seamage Thothian Mystic Alphatian Skyship (AC) Heldannic Territories Heldannic Knight Heldannic Warrior Priest Heldannic Knightrix of Vanya Heldannic Warbird (AC) Wendar Wendarian Elfmage Bensarian Hermit Wendarian Forest Runner Elfstone of Gylharan (A) Sind Sindhi War Elephant Sindhi Himaya Warrior Sindhi Rishiya Priest Jaibuli Jadugerya Wizard Sun Spear of Ayazi (A) Katar of Kala (A) Iron Warbeast (AC) Thanegioth Archipelago Thanegian Tribesmen Thanegian Tyrannosaurus Rex Thanegian Orcs Black Pearl of the Kopru (A) Light Spear of the Ancients (A) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:47:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? [LONG] In a message dated 97-06-12 23:47:31 EDT, you write: << Hi everyone I've got a topic I'd like to throw out to the group: the WotC survey asked about AD&D worlds changing to MAGIC: The Gathering settings. It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of ever again seeing production. What do you all think? Patrick >> Actually, I started working on just such a set. Here's what I started out with; never got much further, as other projects took precedence... never actually laytested, these were just some musings; any playtesting would have whittled each nations representation down significantly, of course. I was designing this as a full-blown set, like Ice Age or Mirage... here's the Karameikos stuff I came up with... Mystaran Supplement to Magic: The Gathering R= One Red Mana G= One Green Mana U= One Blue Mana B= One Black Mana W= One White Mana (#)= # Generic Mana (X)= Variable amount of Generic Mana T= Tap to activate... Karameikos Traladaran Freeholders GG Summon Farmers 1/2 Bands with Walls. G T: Put a 0/1 Wall token into play. "The Traladaran Freeholders of the deep forests are more than capable of defending themselves... they have little need for mercenary Thyatian knights!" Pyotr Sukiskynev, Clan Leader Karameikan Knight WW Summon Knight 2/2 Flanking, First Strike. "The Knights of Karameikos are unparalleled in their valor and piety, as the dangers of the land of Karameikos are unparalleled in danger and darkness." Duke Stefan Karameikos III Thyatian Noble WU Summon Noble 1/1 Upkeep: W or U W: +0/+1. You may use no more than WWW in this manner in any one turn. U: +1/+0. You may use no more than UUU in this manner in any one turn WU T: Put a 1/1 Soldier token into play. "My followers from Thyatis are loyal and brave; Asterius and Vanya smile on our endeavor to bring civilization to this land." Duke Stefan Karameikos III Karameikan Priest (2)WU Summon Priest 1/2 T: Prevent 2 damage to any creature. W T: Target Skeleton, Zombie, Ghoul or Vampire takes 2 damage. U T: Target Knight, Soldier or Hero gains +1/+1 until end of turn. "The Immortals provide for those who provide for themselves." Oliver Jowett, Patriarch of Specularum Traladaran Priest WUR Summon Priest 1/1 W T: Look at the top card on target players library, then place it back on top of that players library. UR T: Look at the top card on target players library; you may either place it back on top of target players library or on the bottom of target players library. "Interesting lifeline... just don't make any long-term plans..." Aleksyev Nikelnevich, Patriarch, Church of Traladara Cultists of Halav (3)W Summon Cultists 0/2 Cultists gain +3/+3 when Duke Stefan Karameikos III is in play. T: Regenerate. T: Sacrifice Cultists of Halav to regenerate Duke Stephen Karameikos III. "The Immortals alone know whence comes their magic... but they are a force to be reckoned with, that I will grant." Aleksyev Nikelnevitch, Patriarch, Church of Traladara Calarii Cavalier (3)GR Summon Elven Knight 2/2 Flanking G: Protection from Red. RR: Protection from Beastmen. GG T: Target permanent gains Protection from Red. "Ilsundal! Grant me the courage to vanquish thine enemies!" Larellian Harfallon, Elven Cavalier Knight of Haven (4)GU Summon Legend 3/4 Flanking, First Strike, Rampage:1 Upkeep: GU Phases UU T: Target permanent phases. "There are those who believe the Kingdom of Haven is nothing more than a myth; there are those who believe it really exists. Both beliefs are true..." Text from the Sclaran Codex, Volume VI Veiled Society Thugs (1)BB Summon Thugs 3/1 T: Veiled Society Thugs does its power in damage to target creature; target creature does its power in damage to Veiled Society Thugs. "Uhhh, boss? You sure this is a good idea?" Oleg the Dim, his last and best words... Darine Gypsies GU Summon Gypsies 1/1 Upkeep: G or U T: Tap target creature. T: Flip a coin; if result is in your favor, take permanent control of target artifact; if result is against you, bury all Darine Gypsies you control and an additional permanent of your choice that you control. This ability may be used only if the controller of the target artifact has no untapped creatures in play. "The Gypsies always work together; but do not be fooled! Though they are always loyal to each other, they cannot be trusted..." Flameflicker, the Thief-King Goblins of the Dymrak Forest BR Summon Beastmen Goblins 2/1 Bands with Wolves Cannot attack an opponent who has untapped creatures with a power greater than that of the Goblins, unless Goblins are Banded with Wolves. "It is said that the Goblins have no courage save that granted by the howl of a wolf; that may be so, but they are still canny fighters." Pyotr Sukiskynev, Clan Leader Dymrak Wolves B Summon Wolves 1/2 "The wolves of the Dymrak are said to be the souls of those slain by the Nosferatu... whatever the truth, there is nothing more forlorn than the howl of the Dymrak Wolves." Kuzma Sukiskynev, Clan Matriarch Deaths Head Gnolls (1)BR Summon Beastmen Gnolls 2/2 BB: First Strike. RR: Bands with Beastmen. "The Gnolls are the ancient enemy of the Traldar. Now that our King has returned in the form of Duke Stefan, the Beastmen shall again be purged from our sacred lands!" Sergyev, Patriarch of the Cult of Halav Doom Legion (X)BR Summon Beastmen Horde 0/1 Cumulative Upkeep: One Life. Trample When Legion is brought into play, put X +1/+1 horde counters on it. For every point of damage dealt to Legion, remove one horde counter unless controller spends B or R. BB: Place a horde counter on Legion. You may do this only during your upkeep phase. R: Remove one horde counter from the Legion. Place one 1/1 Goblin token into play. You may only do this during your upkeep phase. "The Legions of the Black Eagle are fierce, but he has difficulty controlling them. Hopefully, the might of his own forces will weaken him sufficiently that we may free our lands of his curse!" Mistress Sascia of Luln Traladaran Nosferatu (3)BB Summon Vampire 3/4 Upkeep: One Life. Flying. BB: Regenerate. For each point of damage Traladaran Nosferatu deals, you gain 1 life. You cannot gain more life in this way than the toughness or life total of the Creature or player damaged. "Blood is the essence of Life. Without it, even we undying shall wither..." Fragment from the diary of the Black Count of Rymskigrad Traladaran Greater Werewolf (2)BB Summon Lycanthrope 4/3 Sacrifice a creature when Traladaran Werewolf comes into play, or Traladaran Werewolf is countered. Put a counter on Werewolf when it comes into play and during your upkeep. Werewolf gets -1/-1 if it has 1 counter and +1/+1 if it has 3 counters. Remove all counters when there are 4 counters on Werewolf. Agent of the Iron Ring (3)BU Summon Agent 2/2 B: +1/+0 until end of turn. You may use no more than BBB in this manner during any one turn. If Agent of the Iron Ring attacks and is not blocked, you may have it deal no damage and sacrifice it to take control of target artifact defender controls. This artifact now has a cumulative upkeep of U. "The Iron Ring is most notorious in its lust for magical power. If they cannot use an item, they would rather destroy it". Flameflicker, the Thief-King Loshad the Chevall (3)GW Summon Legend 2/3 Flanking G: Regenerate. WW T: Target Black creature takes 2 damage. "Halav, Petra, Zirchev... yes, they were mighty heros of old. But Loshad was at the side of The Mother long before their time..." Kuzma Sukiskynev, Clan Matriarch Great Red Dragon of the North (2)RRRBBB Summon Elder Dragon Legend 6/6 Upkeep: (1)RB Flying, Rampage 1 R: +1/+0 until end of turn. B: Add R to your Mana Pool. This effect is a Mana Source. Great Green Dragon of Achelos (2)GGGBBB Summon Elder Dragon Legend 5/7 Upkeep: (1)GB Flying G: Add B to your Mana Pool (X)GG T: Do X damage, divided equally among any number of targets (round down). Pay G for each target beyond the first. Duke Stefan Karameikos III (4)WWUU Summon Legend 4/5 Upkeep: W or U Flanking, First Strike, Protection from Black Duke Stefan does not tap when attacking. (X)W T: X Knights and Heroes gain +1/+1 until the end of the turn. No one Knight or Hero may gain more than +1/+1 in this manner in any one turn. (X)U T: X Knights and Heros do not tap when attacking this round. "Stefan stands as an example for all in bravery, valor and dignity. He is the greatest of Knights." Oliver Jowett, Patriarch of Specularum Baron Ludwig von Hendricks, the Black Eagle (4)BB Summon Legend 2/4 Upkeep: B When Baron Ludwig comes into play, put 3 Serf tokens into play. Treat these tokens as 0/1 Black creatures. BB: Regenerate. B T: Sacrifice a Beastman. Put 2 Serf tokens into play. If Baron Ludwig leaves play or leaves your control, bury all Serf tokens you control. Freedom (X)WW Sorcery Gain control of X Serf tokens in play. Sacrifice all Serf tokens you control. For every 2 tokens thus sacrificed, put one Soldier token into play. Treat these tokens as 1/1 White creatures. Bargle the Infamous (2)BBRRUU Summon Legend 2/6 Upkeep: B or U or R B: Regenerate. BB T: Sacrifice a creature. Bring a summon spell from your graveyard that has a casting cost less than or equal to that of the creature sacrificed to your hand. RR T: Sacrifice a land. Do 3 damage to one target. UU T: Sacrifice an artifact. Counter target spell as it is being cast. Sword of Halav (4) Legendary Artifact T: Target creature gains Protection from Beastmen until end of turn. (X) T: Sacrifice a Knight or Hero. Do X damage to target Beastman. Return Sword of Halav to your hand at end of turn. Shield of Petra (4) Legendary Artifact (2): Prevent 1 damage to target creature. Tap target creature if untapped. (X): Spell targeting target creature is countered; X equals cost of target spell. Return Shield of Petra to your hand at end of turn. City of Specularum Legendary Land Comes into play tapped. You may leave Specularum tapped to put a counter on it during your upkeep. T: Remove 1 counter. Add W to your Mana Pool. T: Remove 2 counters. Add U to your Mana Pool. T: Remove 3 counters. Gain one life. Town of Threshold Legendary Land Comes into play tapped. You may leave Threshold tapped to put a counter on in during your upkeep. T: Remove 1 counter. Add G to your Mana Pool. T: Remove 2 counters. Add R to your Mana Pool. T: Remove 3 counters. Put a 1/1 Hero counter into play. This Hero has Banding, and counts as a White creature. Land of Haven Legendary Land Phases T: Add U to your Mana Pool. U T: Target permanent Phases. UU T: Put a 0/1 Pixie token into play. This Pixie Flies, and counts as a Green creature. Koriszegy Keep Legendary Land T: Add B to your Mana Pool. B T: Tap target Knight or Hero. BB T: Put a 1/1 Spider token into play. This Spider has poison, and counts as a Black creature. Radlebb Woods Legendary Land T: Add G to your Mana Pool. G T: Untap target Elf attacker you control. That Elf neither deals nor receives damage as a result of combat this turn. GG T: All Elves you control gain +1/+1 Dymrak Forest Legendary Land T: Add B to your Mana Pool. T: Sacrifice a Forest. All Goblins you control gain +0/+1 until end of turn. B T: Sacrifice a Forest. All Goblins you control gain +1/+1 Castellan Keep Legendary Land T: Add W to your Mana Pool. W T: Tap Knight, Soldier or Hero you control. Tap target Giant. WW T: Put a 1/1 Soldier token into play. This soldier has Flanking, and couts as a White creature. Kelvin Moors Legendary Land T: Add G your Mana Pool. G T: Add B to your Mana Pool. GG T: Put a 1/1 Horse token into play. This Horse token has Banding, and counts as a Green creature. Ruins of Krakatos Legendary Land T: Add U to your Mana Pool. T: Tap Target Beastman. U T: Sacrifice a Knight, Soldier or Hero. Destroy target Beastman with power less than or equal to the power of the Knight, Soldier or Hero sacrificed. Ruins of Auld Rymskigrad Legendary Land T: Add B to your Mana Pool. B T: Sacrifice a creature. Add BBB to your Mana Pool. BB T: Double target Vampire's power and give it Trample ability until end of turn. If it attacks, destroy target Vampire at end of turn. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #98 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #99 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, June 15 1997 Volume 02 : Number 099 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:29:04 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? JRS wrote: > Hi > Well i dont like this idia at all I really hope they will start up mystara > again but as a card game NO WAY. I agree that it isn't a good idea to make ANY Magic cards from ANY add or dd settings. But it would bee nice to see Mystara as a Spellfire-booster. And glantri as a second mystaran spellfire booster. I would even volunteer to plan them. That would be nice. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:15:19 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Old Alphatia At 10.14 12/06/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: > >IMC, which does not use the SJR system in the least, Magic is not ubiquitous >throughout the Prime Material Plane (the "Universe"); some regions are strong >in it (like the old Alphatian system), some regions have none (like the >region of the Federation). I agree with the hypothesis that magic doesn't work the same way in all the universe, but i want to rmind you all that Old Alphatia is NOT in the Prime Plane, but lies in one of the Outer Planes (Draesten) as written in M1 and WotI! In fact, this is the only case we know about mortals of the Outer Planes that have become immortals (Razud, Alphatia, even Alphaks), and this is extremely interesting to me, cause it demonstrates that you don't have to come from the Prime to be eligible for immortal status! DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:34:30 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas At 09.23 11/06/97 -0700, Cthul wrote: >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > >> I assumed Damocles (i have to find a better name for it, though) ceased to >> be during the Wrath of the Immortals, and the asteroid that crashed on >> Glantri was a large chunk of it. The rest of the planet went in 2 different >> directions: one has become Mercury (Rathanos) and the other Pluto (Alphaks >> or Hel) > >Interesting. I think I've seen this proposed here before, and I certainly >recall the Damocles thing in the Gold Box. What does everyone else think? >Does this sound like a good idea? If so, we could have some Mystaran >astronomer notice the new planets far off in the distance in the Almanac >this year. > Yes, it's from the old Golden Box. And i think the idea to make an astronomer notice the 2 new planets in the incoming almanac is good. You've got my vote for it! DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:31:01 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? [LONG] At 00.47 13/06/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: > >Actually, I started working on just such a set. Here's what I started out >with; never got much further, as other projects took precedence... never >actually laytested, these were just some musings; any playtesting would have >whittled each nations representation down significantly, of course. I was >designing this as a full-blown set, like Ice Age or Mirage... here's the >Karameikos stuff I came up with... > >Mystaran Supplement to Magic: The Gathering Frankly, Mystaros, i'm glad you didn't got much further, and i sincererly hope nobody at WotC will go that much further to dissacrate Mystara in this deprecable way. I do think it's rather bad taste to associate Mystara with CCG, that's to say with the very cause of its death. Please, do not insist on this attempt any further, or you'll cause me a nervous breakdown. Of course, this is only MY personal opinion and i don't know if anyone agrees, so don't flame. DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:46:14 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas At 20.19 11/06/97 +0200, Haavard wrote: >I dont really like the idea of naming the planets after immortals though. >I think we could just make up some bizarre fantasy names. >Parts of Damocles became MMercury and MPluto(Mentioned in the Gold Box). Actually, we discussed this idea in the past and we came to the conclusion that it was a logic choice to name the planets after the immortals, just like the old cultures of our world have done. IIRC the list was something like this: Venus (Valerias, cause it was the closest to the Sun -Ixion- before the Damocles disaster and since they are lovers it's the best choice) Earth (Mystara) Mars (Tarastia, since it's red body associated with energy) Damocles (who knows? Anyway, one chunk became Mercury and it's named Rathanos, because it's a fire body. The other chunk became Pluto and the name can be Alphaks or Hel) Jupiter (Vanya, cause it's big and Vanya is the most important immortal in Thyatis -btw, we gave the planets thyatian names) Saturn (Khoronus) Neptune (Protius, since it's a water body) Uranus (maybe Odin or Asterius) Charon (from the Golden Box, Thanatos, since it's dark and frightening) Pluto (maybe Hel or Alphaks, or even Alphatia, to remember the fate of that land - As i've said, after the Damocles bang it becomes the 10th planet of the galaxy) >Another part became Alphaks Comet, while others might still roam space. It >has been speculated that some of them ended up in MOrient or Myoshima, but >I'll leave that to the people working on those projects. What's this Alphaks Comet? never heard about... could u enlighten me? DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:12:23 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Ixion Church I was wondering if any of you has ever detailed the Church of Ixion like Haavard did with Karameikos. Also, where do u think the main Ixion Cathedral should be placed in the Old World, now that Alphatia (who sure had the major following) has sunk? Another issue: has any of you ever detailed the relics owned by each church of the Old World (for example, IMC the Church of Traladara in Mirros has the Sword of Halav as sacred relic) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:36:03 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] City of Brass- Mystaros Look! :) On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > Say, Mystaros (as well as other fellow Mystarans), I was going over GAZ2 > last night, and noted the references to the fabled Ylari "City of Brass". > It is seemingly located somewhere in Ylaruam, but it's shifting presence > (at least, that's the sense I got of it from it's description in the > adventure section) might make it a suitable candidate for a Haven type of > setting- in Mystaros' campaign scenario. In other words, it occupies a > sort of unique area both in the Prime Plane and the Spirit World, and > only occasionally shows up in the Prime. > In fact there's a City of Brass detailed in Al-Qadim setting (Secrets of the Lamp box). It's the capital of efreet. I wonder if it's the same one? BTW, I found that Al-Qadim materials are quite useful for detailing Ylaruam. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:55:58 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Anias Pasi wrote: > JRS wrote: > > Hi > > Well i dont like this idia at all I really hope they will start up mystara > > again but as a card game NO WAY. > > I agree that it isn't a good idea to make ANY Magic cards from ANY add or > dd settings. But it would bee nice to see Mystara as a Spellfire-booster. > And glantri as a second mystaran spellfire booster. I would even volunteer > to plan them. That would be nice. > I agree! Think about it! Etienne d'Ambreville could be one of those powerful super-rare cards that everyone drools over ;) Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:29:29 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Here's the rest of the list of stuff... never got too far with these, I was > still tweaking the Karameikos stuf when I stopped... > > Glantri > Glantrian Wizard > Glantrian War Wizard > Boldavian Vampire > Skeletal Legions > Gold Dragon > Canine Protection Society > Sire Malachie du Morais (LC) > Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany (LC) > Prince Jaggar von Dracenfels (LC) > Prince Brannart McGregor (LC) > Globe of the Radiance (A) > Control Destiny (S) > Gnomish Warbeast (AC) > Flamenco Curse (E Creature) > Alchemical Laboratory (L) > Dracology (E Creature) > Elemental Conjuration (E) > Dreamlands (LL) > Necromantic Potency (E) > Truename (S) > Witchcraft (S) > That was fun... but you forgot the greatest: Prince Etienne d'Ambreville. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:46:40 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? > I didnt get into the baseball card thing, I had nothing to do Magic the > Gathering, and I will NOT support MYSTARA the card game. If WOTC even > try to transform MYSTARA in to a CARD GAME I will lose all respect for > WotC. > If MYSTARA is comes back again in a lesser format the world will die > that much more. I say bring it back in GAZ form with Bruce and Allan as > the directors or not at all. .....Sorry Im tired and need sleep. i agree with patrick when he said >> I can think of many reasons to oppose this, >> but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of >> ever again seeing production. i think we can all agree on the perfect situation having bruce, allan, etc doing mystara again but us mystarans arent in a healthy situation here our world has been cancelled mystara coming back in a "lesser" format could cause enough outside intrest in our world so that it may once again be produced it cant "die more" it cant be worse than this it can only get better so, id support magic: the mystara supplement with the hopes that one day well see the 1020AC gazs done by people from mystaras golden age - --- -- -- Crip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:10:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? Patrick pontificated: > > Hi everyone > I've got a topic I'd like to throw out to the group: > the WotC survey asked about AD&D worlds changing to MAGIC: The Gathering > settings. > It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so > intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be > converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although > it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to > oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of > ever again seeing production. What do you all think? Interesting, I didn't really thought that WotC are thinking about such a thing. Personally, I like the idea if this mean the rpg part of Mystara could be revived. If they going to just do a card expansions, then I don't really care, unless it have some really good arts of the well known people and placed in Mystara. Also, if they do make it into a card game, I hope they clearify that the card game is based on the world of Mystara but not the Mystara setting that is used in rpg. So people wouldn't scream when there are difference between the two. I think this should be a product we should support if there is any possibility that the extra name regonization can spin off more Mystara products, even if it is just some novels. Of course, the computer and arcade games based on Mystara didn't help it much, there are probably no reason to assume that the card game will. Just my 2 cents. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:16:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? > > I agree that it isn't a good idea to make ANY Magic cards from ANY add or > dd settings. But it would bee nice to see Mystara as a Spellfire-booster. > And glantri as a second mystaran spellfire booster. I would even volunteer > to plan them. That would be nice. What would be the difference between Spellfire and Magic? Beside isn't Spellfire mostly dead already? I doubt WotC would bring back a product that was designed to compete with Magic, especially now Magic is coming out with Magic expansions with simpler rules, which is the main advantage of Spellfire over Magic. BTW, there was a Spellfire expansion that had some Mystara stuff in there, but they are consider as generic AD&D cards. It is call Ruins and something, I can't remember. John Yu > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:42:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? DM pontificated: > > I do think it's rather bad taste to associate Mystara with > CCG, that's to say with the very cause of its death. Wasn't Mystara was pretty much dead already before the coming of CCGs? I seems to remember it was in the same GenCon that I heard about Magic and the attempt of bringing Mystara back in AD&D system. Beside, think of the irony :) John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:38:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] A few random SJR ideas DM pontificated: > > Yes, it's from the old Golden Box. And i think the idea to make an > astronomer notice the 2 new planets in the incoming almanac is good. You've > got my vote for it! > Shouldn't they notice one of the planets disappear first? Also, it will take powerful magic to detect the outer planets. Pluto wasn't discovered until this century, and Neptune sometime in mid 1800's. Quite a bit of understanding of physics and mathematic is required to find those planets (or Commune spell, I guess, if you know what to ask). Speaking of fantasy planets, does anyone want to add Vulcan into Mystara's planets mix? Supposely it is a planet inside the orbit of Mercury, but too close to the sun to be seen. Some scientist thought it is there earlier this century based on calculation on Mercury's orbit. A fun way of discovering planets just popped into my head. Perhaps some planets can be discovered when some astrologers find their prediction of future based on the known planets is not accurate enough, and theroize that there must be other planets out there influencing peoples life. And tell their astronomer friend where to look... John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:48:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [Mystara] WotC survey. Don't remember whether this has been said on here or not, if so I'm sorry. But on WotC web page there is a survey regarding to TSR's products, so I would like everyone take a minute or two to complete the survey and show support of Mystara. The URL is http://www.wizards.com/Misc/TSRSurvey.html. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:23:43 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Goodbye At 21:47 12-06-97 -0500, you wrote: >Since I am getting married next week I am going to have to temorarily >suspend my subscription to the list. I want to thank everyone for the >great amount of stuff I have learned and enjoyed and hope to be back >soon. > >until later, > > >-- >"Listen what people do to other souls >They take their lives - destroy their goals." >Heaven for everyone. Queen, 1995. >Enrique Pacheco. Email: pach@mail.geocities.com Good luck! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:53:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: hazel@dei.unipd.it Subject: [Mystara] Glantri Hello everybody! I have a few questions about the Glantri Gazetteer (the original D&D one, which is IMHO far,far better than AD&D one). Could anybody who answers me be so kind as to answer me by e-mail as well at hazel@dei.unipd.it, as I'm not subscribed to the list? Thanks! 1) Could a mage be member of more than one of the seven secret crafts? As it doesn't say otherwise, I guess the answer is yes, at least theorically. It's IMHO reasonable though that the disciple might have problems: the orders are rival factions, and very jealous of their secrets, and might question the disciple's loyalty if they discover his other alliances. 2)How's that witches lose 2 pts of Charisma every circle and most witches in the Marauders, Mages and Masters section have a high Charisma (the High mistress should have no more than 18-5*2=8 and Carnelia has 13, for example). 3)The Nucleus is said to have drained 50 rad points in AC1000. How's that some gazetteers (only some- notably Alpathia) report of a day without magic? (And how does Floating Ar avoid crashing on such a day?) 4)Why did the immortals wreck mystara on the problem of the nucleus' magic drain when the drain can be temporarily avoided by the sacrifice of a life force of a wizard failing in its attempt to reach immortality (and this has occured in the past, as one can read in the shadow-elves Gaz and also indirectly deduce from the fact that the Nucleus has been used for more than 50 years by AC 1000)? A smarter strategy would have been to lure a steady "income" of powerful wizards to use of the trascend life force spell, and set a VERY tough challenge ahead of them, so that only the very best would gain immortality and the rest would "feed" the artifact. 5)It's stated that Innocenti helped one of his Viscounts creating his dominion, and also in the "order of the radiance" part it's stated "baronies can't be created closer than so and so, viscounties closer than so and so etc. Can a dominion of higher "rank" than a barony be created by someone who's not yet a noble or who's a low rank noble (e.g. could a baron create a county and become count of that and release his old dominion, or a non-noble wizard create a duchy -of course subject to the council's approval?). BTW, about an act of enfiefment: is it automatic as soon as one gets the approval of the 5000 people or does someone still need the approval of the council? Thanks a lot in advance to anybody answering me (at hazel@dei.unipd.it ) E.P. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:57:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: How about some more additions- > Ylaruam Brass Horseman City of Brass Undead Lizardmen (Possibly, just due to the nature of Ylaruam) Sollux/Sun Brothers Old Man of the Sea > Glantri Volospin's Dragonfly of Doom > Broken Lands Oenkmarian Priest Oenkmarian Slave > Darokin Borderlands Baron Borderlands Militia > Atruaghin Tiger Clan Priest Tiger Clan warrior Sacrificial Altar > Thanegioth Archipelago Rakasta Tribesman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:51:16 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? At 14.20 12/06/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi everyone >I've got a topic I'd like to throw out to the group: >the WotC survey asked about AD&D worlds changing to MAGIC: The Gathering >settings. >It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so >intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be >converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although >it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to >oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of >ever again seeing production. What do you all think? NOOOOOOOOOO! In the survey I even suggested WotC to sto producing MAGIC :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:43:25 -0400 (EDT) From: BZuber5988@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantri In a message dated 97-06-13 14:52:06 EDT, EP writes: << 1) Could a mage be member of more than one of the seven secret crafts? >> IMC, a mage *could* join anywhere from one to all seven of the secret crafts, but none has done so because finding and joining just one secret society is pretty tough by itself, and each craft tends to attract a certain mindset that isn't compatible with the other crafts. Plus, if your compatriots of one craft find out you belong to one of the rival schools, they wouldn't take kindly to it. << 2)How's that witches lose 2 pts of Charisma every circle and most witches in the Marauders, Mages and Masters section have a high Charisma? >> IMC (again), all witches (wokans, warlocks . . . whatever) suffer this Charisma loss, but may "cover" it up with illusion and/or polymorph type magicks . . . which most do since their ugliness would be a clue as to their secret affiliation with the craft of witchcraft. << 3)The Nucleus is said to have drained 50 rad points in AC1000. How's that some gazetteers (only some- notably Alpathia) report of a day without magic? (And how does Floating Ar avoid crashing on such a day?) >> The answer is not simple and is spread out among several products and Dragon articles. I'll do my best to remember :) (Bruce, you'd be perfect to answer this one!). The Nucleus of the Spheres (Glantri) and the Chamber of the Spheres (Shadowelves) are two separate artifacts and their "magic drain" is not cumulative. In fact, the shadowelven artifact doesn't drain magic from Mystara at all! The exact score of "rad points" hasn't really been tallied, but ya gotta figure all those mages in Glantri usin' up Radiance, a few "transcending" right into the artifact, and the Immortals put a little bit o' juice back in the artifact to prevent widescale magic loss. The magic drain only effects mortal magic, so Immortal magics (and IMC, true dweomers cast by mortals) are not affected by the Day of Dread (so Floating Ar, powered by Palartarkan's magic, does not sink). << 4)Why did the immortals wreck mystara on the problem of the nucleus' magic drain when the drain can be temporarily avoided by the sacrifice of a life force of a wizard failing in its attempt to reach immortality A smarter strategy would have been to lure a steady "income" of powerful wizards to use of the trascend life force spell, and set a VERY tough challenge ahead of them, so that only the very best would gain immortality and the rest would "feed" the artifact. >> Can we say "ENTROPY"! :) Tricking mortals into feeding themselves to a lifeforce eating artifact is a way evil act, and most Immortals (especially Rad, caretaker of the Radiance) are not evil. Of course, most wizards who do cast "Transcend Life Force" fail and feed the artifact. Rad didn't mean for Alphatia to sink, the Week of No Magic to happen, or for the Day of Dread to annually plague Mystara. Even Immortals say "oops" every once and a while :) Delarius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:42:46 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? > > it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to > oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of > ever again seeing production. What do you all think? > Patrick > Maybe you're in the truth, but if they change mystara to adapt it to the Magic settings, all the stuff they will produce will be unusable for us, the D&D players... - -- Sebastian Quiles ================ Universidad de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:44:04 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? > > > > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Patrick wrote: > > > > > It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so > > > intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be > > > converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although > > > it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to > > > oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of > > > ever again seeing production. What do you all think? > > > > I guess I'm not exactly sure what "changing [Mystara] to a Magic: the > > Gathering world" entails. Does it mean that we'll see M:tG- the World of > > Mystara card games? Does it mean that the wizards will become > > Planewalkers and that sorcery will summon Wooly Mammoths and Forest Apes? > > > > If so, I am not particularly fond of the idea at all... > > > i have to agree with you here. I think it is much preferable to leave the > Mystara world in the hand of the people who have a genuine interest in > it, rather than let someone else bastardize it to whatever nefarious ends > they see fit. Somehow the merging of Magic:The Gathering and Mystara > under the guidance of WotC does not make me jump for joy. > > Jason > tzbyxx@echidna.stu.cowan.edu.au > I agree both ... - -- Sebastian Quiles ================ Universidad de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:14:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Treman1997@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC survey. >Don't remember whether this has been said on here or not, if >so I'm sorry. But on WotC web page there is a survey regarding >to TSR's products, so I would like everyone take a minute or >two to complete the survey and show support of Mystara. The >URL is http://www.wizards.com/Misc/TSRSurvey.html. Hey, I filled out one, now I am going to fill out another, and another, and another.................. -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:31:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantri On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 hazel@dei.unipd.it wrote: > 1) Could a mage be member of more than one of the seven secret crafts? As it > doesn't say otherwise, I guess the answer is yes, at least theorically. It's > IMHO reasonable though that the disciple might have problems: the orders are > rival factions, and very jealous of their secrets, and might question the > disciple's loyalty if they discover his other alliances. Probably so, yes. Though I liken them to something akin to cults- and anyone that is not fully devoted to their particular sect, and is discovered, will be subject to severe penalties- possibly worse than death (turned into an undead for Necromancers, trapped in the Dimension of Nightmares for Illusionists, etc.) > 2)How's that witches lose 2 pts of Charisma every circle and most witches in > the Marauders, Mages and Masters section have a high Charisma (the High > mistress should have no more than 18-5*2=8 and Carnelia has 13, for example). I always wondered this one myself. You notice that this requirement was dropped in G:KoM boxed set... Bruce, any thoughts on this? > 3)The Nucleus is said to have drained 50 rad points in AC1000. How's that > some gazetteers (only some- notably Alpathia) report of a day without magic? > (And how does Floating Ar avoid crashing on such a day?) I'm not sure what you mean by this? As for Floating Ar, the islands are permanently enchanted by a near-Immortal (and one would think that Ar must have reinforced that with his Immortal powers once he actually reached Immortality). > 4)Why did the immortals wreck mystara on the problem of the nucleus' magic > drain when the drain can be temporarily avoided by the sacrifice of a life > force of a wizard failing in its attempt to reach immortality (and this has > occured in the past, as one can read in the shadow-elves Gaz and also > indirectly deduce from the fact that the Nucleus has been used for more than > 50 years by AC 1000)? A smarter strategy would have been to lure a steady > "income" of powerful wizards to use of the trascend life force spell, and > set a VERY tough challenge ahead of them, so that only the very best would > gain immortality and the rest would "feed" the artifact. It wasn't just a matter of the artifact, but of insubordination, and reigning in a "rogue" Immortal. Ixion and the other Immortals overreacted to this particular event- one of the main points of the whole WotI adventure. > 5)It's stated that Innocenti helped one of his Viscounts creating his > dominion, and also in the "order of the radiance" part it's stated "baronies > can't be created closer than so and so, viscounties closer than so and so > etc. Can a dominion of higher "rank" than a barony be created by someone > who's not yet a noble or who's a low rank noble (e.g. could a baron create a > county and become count of that and release his old dominion, or a non-noble > wizard create a duchy -of course subject to the council's approval?). I don't know that this would be allowable. I suppose it's possible, but there would have to be a darned good reason for it. I think the council would be far more likely to approve a new barony in the outer lands than they would to approve a higher rank. It might explain the discrepancy of Baronies to higher dominion ranks, though (when one would have to progress upwards, and there are seemingly not enough Baronies to account for all the nobles). As for Innocenti helping his Viscount, I think that refers more to him using his political clout to push a cooperative Baron through the ranks to Viscount rather than actually enfieff his dominion. > BTW, about an act of enfiefment: is it automatic as soon as one gets > the approval of the 5000 people or does someone still need the approval > of the council? I think this is explained, but yes- the council must still approve the act of Enfieffment. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:09:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? In a message dated 97-06-13 08:18:07 EDT, you write: << That was fun... but you forgot the greatest: Prince Etienne d'Ambreville. Aleksei >> Well, I was just putting the list together... not all of the "Legends" were done yet... Etienne *would* be one nasty card though, eh? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:07:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? [LONG] In a message dated 97-06-13 05:52:30 EDT, you write: << Frankly, Mystaros, i'm glad you didn't got much further, and i sincererly hope nobody at WotC will go that much further to dissacrate Mystara in this deprecable way. I do think it's rather bad taste to associate Mystara with CCG, that's to say with the very cause of its death. Please, do not insist on this attempt any further, or you'll cause me a nervous breakdown. Of course, this is only MY personal opinion and i don't know if anyone agrees, so don't flame. DM >> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:27:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Old Alphatia In a message dated 97-06-14 03:44:13 EDT, you write: << I agree with the hypothesis that magic doesn't work the same way in all the universe, but i want to rmind you all that Old Alphatia is NOT in the Prime Plane, but lies in one of the Outer Planes (Draesten) as written in M1 and WotI! In fact, this is the only case we know about mortals of the Outer Planes that have become immortals (Razud, Alphatia, even Alphaks), and this is extremely interesting to me, cause it demonstrates that you don't have to come from the Prime to be eligible for immortal status! DM >> QUOTES from M1 [Emphasis mine] "Vanya opened a huge gate that actually communicates with another part of the *galaxy*". Page 7. ""The party has just crossed Vanya's maelstrom into this area of the *galaxy*" Page 8. QUOTES from DotE Book 1 [Emphasis mine] "Far across the *galaxy*, on another world, a race of pale-skinned humans called Alphatians begin to rise to preeminence and to studymighty magics". Page 5. Now, in the WotI set, the Alphatian Homeworld *was* placed in an Outer Plane. This contradicted EVERYTHING ELSE ever written about Alphatia. So, the Canonical nature of the origin of Alphatia depends on whether you determine Canon from the most recent information (rejecting everything else ever written prior) OR whether you base Canon on the preponderance of evidence (in correspondence to each other). I personally use the latter method for determining "Canon", and find it to be the more sensible manner, rather than having to change everything once a new editorial glitch (or personal preference on the part of the author) slips in... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:55:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? In a message dated 97-06-13 20:38:38 EDT, you write: << How about some more additions- > Ylaruam Brass Horseman City of Brass Undead Lizardmen (Possibly, just due to the nature of Ylaruam) Sollux/Sun Brothers Old Man of the Sea > Glantri Volospin's Dragonfly of Doom > Broken Lands Oenkmarian Priest Oenkmarian Slave > Darokin Borderlands Baron Borderlands Militia > Atruaghin Tiger Clan Priest Tiger Clan warrior Sacrificial Altar > Thanegioth Archipelago Rakasta Tribesman >> All great ideas; I will add them if I ever get around to doing anything with the stuff again... Also, I've never encountered such a vehement attitude against Magic (and I've met a LOT of people who dislike Magic). I don't understand how a M:tG set based on Mystara would be so sacreligious (especially when a number have expressed approval for a set dedicated to Spellfire). Personally, I prefer the Magic card game to the Spellfire card game; sure, I too laughed at Magic when it first came out, but when I finally played it I thought that it was a pretty neat game (though the tournament games have way too much testosterone involved for my tastes). I've been playing in Mystara since it first came out back in '80, and I don't feel that a Magic set of Mystara would be sacreligious at all; it would simply be a way for more people to learn about Mystara, and possibly desire to play in Mystara... besides, there is ALREADY a Mystara Magic set... it's called Weatherlight... :) And please remember, this is all conjecture! No one is planning any sort of "official" Mystara Magic card set! Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:46:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantri In a message dated 97-06-13 14:52:06 EDT, you write: << 1) Could a mage be member of more than one of the seven secret crafts? As it doesn't say otherwise, I guess the answer is yes, at least theorically. It's IMHO reasonable though that the disciple might have problems: the orders are rival factions, and very jealous of their secrets, and might question the disciple's loyalty if they discover his other alliances.>> Personally, I would say no. The necessary vigor and strength of mind to master even the smallest secrets of these crafts would make it difficult to concentrate on anything else. Remember, these kinds of things are NOT like double-majors in College! Also, each of the Secret Crafts is not only a series of magical powers, it is also a series of alliances and goals, most of which would be mutually exclusive if not directly in opposition. You can't be a "Weekend Warrior" Dracologist; you are either 100% WITH them or you are AGAINST them... <<2)How's that witches lose 2 pts of Charisma every circle and most witches in the Marauders, Mages and Masters section have a high Charisma (the High mistress should have no more than 18-5*2=8 and Carnelia has 13, for example).>> Most likely covered up with magic... especially since witches are the "best users of decieit, charms and shapechange, to avoid being shunned or persecuted by others". Page 76. <<3)The Nucleus is said to have drained 50 rad points in AC1000. How's that some gazetteers (only some- notably Alpathia) report of a day without magic? (And how does Floating Ar avoid crashing on such a day?)>> IIRC, the various Days without Magic are all only on a % chance, in conjunction with a (localized?) "Stellar Cataclysm"; a comet, meteor shower, etc. In Alphatia, the Day When Magic Fails is an isolated (regional) event (not mentioned in any other GAZ). As this is the day prior to the New Year, it might be an event generated by the Immortals as a reminder to Mortal wielders of Magic that they are merely Mortals; just my own supposition. As to the Floating Isles of Ar; IMC, their Mortal Magic was boosted by a very subtle Immortal Magic (generated by Palartarkan, who was Ar in his mortal life); that way, even during other No Magic days (not generated by the Immortals), the Isles wouldn't plummet to destruction. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 10:23:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] MDaemon The MDaemon keeps telling me that malacoda@metro.lebois.com is no longer in service. It is filling my mailbox with these notices. Can someone do something? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 10:35:35 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [ADMIN] Your Friendly Neighborhood Administrator's New Address (was: Re: [Mystara] MDaemon) > The MDaemon keeps telling me that malacoda@metro.lebois.com is no longer in > service. It is filling my mailbox with these notices. Can someone do > something? I guess this is a good chance for me to inform everyone that my e-mail address has been temporarily changed to the first address in my .sig. I am not sure why Mystaros is receiving these messages, but I will look into it. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:57:54 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC survey. Ambyrus (and anyone else with similar thoughts): At 09:14 AM 6/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >>URL is http://www.wizards.com/Misc/TSRSurvey.html. > > Hey, I filled out one, now I am going to fill out another, and another, >and another.................. Hey, stop and think before you do this. You may think that it will look like there are more people begging for Mystara to come back, but you have no way of knowing if they aren't taking other information from your browser - -- i.e. the IP address you are logging in from and what page you accessed prior to accessing thier page, etc. If they even think that their statistics are getting skewed by having multiple entries from one (or more) persons they won't take the results nearly as seriously as they otherwise might. One form, with a very well thought out comment at the end will go a lot farther towards aiding our hopes for Mystara than many forms with nothing but "Bring Back Mystara!" in it. To this end I filled in the form and tried to leave a comment that explained my reasons for wanting to see Mystara revised and gave alternate suggestions based on whether they revised (O)D&D or decided to continue the move to AD&D. I also talked about what sort of products I wanted to see: New Gaz's on areas that haven't been covered yet in the same style and price range as the old Gaz's, New modules for all character levels in as many different areas as possible. And I suggested that they should consider re-issuing the /existing/ gaz's with few changes except to maybe add 'standard' information that was not put into some of the the earlier ones and possibly converted to AD&D if they decide to go that route -- it would a great world for new commers if these players could get their hands on all the same information we have access to. This is the kind of information that will help them see that (a) we've given the situation some thought and (b) we are seriously interested in helping them figure out how to do what we, as fans, would like them to do while still allowing them to make them money (the whole reason why they sell ANY product). So the point of my comments is that do fill in the form, think twice before deciding to fill it in more than once, and prepare a thoughtful set of useful comments to add at the end when you do fill it out. Just my $0.02 (Can) Jenni - -=>strawberryJAMM<=- PS: For the comments area they ask that you only discuss your TOP THREE ideas/concerns. You might want to keep this in mind if you want to frame out your comments before going to the form. -JAMM - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #99 **************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #100 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, June 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 100 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 13:08:15 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? Patrick writes: > > > Hi everyone > I've got a topic I'd like to throw out to the group: > the WotC survey asked about AD&D worlds changing to MAGIC: The Gathering > settings. > It seems to me that Mystara would be the ideal setting, since it is so > intensely based on the 5 spheres. It would probably be able to be > converted into a MAGIC or MAGIC/D&D hybrid setting fairly easily, although > it will require a great deal of change. I can think of many reasons to > oppose this, but perhaps it would be the best chance that Mystara has of > ever again seeing production. What do you all think? > Patrick Well, I think the whole idea is nothing short of blasphemy!! Let's face it, without games like D&D, MtG would never have gotten off the ground (even their execs admit to admireing D&D and AD&D in the press release - evidence that they credit their early experiences to their success). For a world as rich and vibrant as Mystara to be reduced to a simple card game, with no co-operation, no characters, no presonality - no, I will never support the destruction of what I believe to be the greatest roleplaying game the world has ever known! I agree with another respondant - - let Bruce Heard, Allen Varney, and the other wizards of TSR remain in command and produce a Gazetteer-style game, like it was in the early 90's. No other system that I know of was so rich in depth. So count me out if the only way Mystara can live again is as a card game. That's not roleplaying, plain and simple. Geoff> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Studentus Emeritus Ad Nauseam Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 13:14:20 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: [Mystara] Re: Golden Box? > > > Yes, it's from the old Golden Box. And i think the idea to make an > astronomer notice the 2 new planets in the incoming almanac is good. You've > got my vote for it! > > > DM > Excuse me for sounding ignorant, but what exactly is the Gold Box? Is it the old Immortal Rules boxed set? Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Studentus Emeritus Ad Nauseam Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 20:21:00 MET From: Sven Munther Subject: [Mystara] Let WotC know Hello all I do not know if this list still exist - I have not seen any postings for ages, but: use http://www.wizards.com/Misc/TSRSurvey.html to let WotC know we are many who want Mystara back Sven ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:59:16 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? At 09.55 15/06/97 -0400, Mystaros wrote: > >Also, I've never encountered such a vehement attitude against Magic (and I've >met a LOT of people who dislike Magic). I'm one of them. >I don't understand how a M:tG set >based on Mystara would be so sacreligious (especially when a number have >expressed approval for a set dedicated to Spellfire). Personally, I prefer >the Magic card game to the Spellfire card game; sure, I too laughed at Magic >when it first came out, but when I finally played it I thought that it was a >pretty neat game This is the reason why I've never played that game, though I know a lot of people that enjoy playing it (actually, they're sort of Magic-addicted...) >(though the tournament games have way too much testosterone >involved for my tastes). I've been playing in Mystara since it first came out >back in '80, and I don't feel that a Magic set of Mystara would be >sacreligious at all; it would simply be a way for more people to learn about >Mystara, and possibly desire to play in Mystara... besides, there is ALREADY >a Mystara Magic set... it's called Weatherlight... :) > It would be sacrilegious simply because CCG aren't RPG. I play also Dragon Dice and like it, but I wouldn't like to have a Mystara DD set, because that's not RPG. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:12:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MDaemon On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > The MDaemon keeps telling me that malacoda@metro.lebois.com is no longer in > service. It is filling my mailbox with these notices. Can someone do > something? I've been getting that, too. :( ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:11:31 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Also, I've never encountered such a vehement attitude against Magic (and I've > met a LOT of people who dislike Magic). I don't understand how a M:tG set > based on Mystara would be so sacreligious (especially when a number have > expressed approval for a set dedicated to Spellfire). You know, after reading your bit on the possible Mystara combinations with Magic, and adding some of my own, I don't think it would be that bad an idea- sort of an alternative to playing *D&D on Mystara. It would be kind of fun. What I object to, is the transition of Mystara _exclusively_ to a Magic: The Gathering type setting. I wouldn't mind seeing a card game based on Mystara, provided that didn't mean that the game itself was not going to get any other kind of support, product wise. > Mystara, and possibly desire to play in Mystara... besides, there is ALREADY > a Mystara Magic set... it's called Weatherlight... :) I'm not sure I follow here, but then, I don't often play Magic (and only own a deck or two of the original and an Ice Age deck...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:15:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC survey. On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > One form, with a very well thought out comment at the end will go a > lot farther towards aiding our hopes for Mystara than many forms with > nothing but "Bring Back Mystara!" in it. > > To this end I filled in the form and tried to leave a comment that > explained my reasons for wanting to see Mystara revised and gave > alternate suggestions based on whether they revised (O)D&D or decided > to continue the move to AD&D. I did the same- and mentioned the oft repeated discussion of how the transition from D&D to an "introductory-level" AD&D campaign setting seemed to do it in. I think that if (even with the transition to AD&D) if things hadn't been "introductized" it might have done better than it did. > I also talked about what sort of products I wanted to see: Nuts. Didn't think to do that, myself. :( > So the point of my comments is that do fill in the form, think twice > before deciding to fill it in more than once, and prepare a thoughtful > set of useful comments to add at the end when you do fill it out. I agree. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:42:14 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >> Also, I've never encountered such a vehement attitude against Magic (and I've >> met a LOT of people who dislike Magic). I don't understand how a M:tG set >> based on Mystara would be so sacreligious (especially when a number have >> expressed approval for a set dedicated to Spellfire). It kinda surprises me too. At least over here in Scotland, CCGs haven't killed RPGs to any extent whatsoever. Take my brother for example - he played D&D almost as much as I did when we were younger, and it gradually faded away a few years ago. Then a few years AFTER that, he got into CCGs, and he is still into Magic. BUT... he still plays D&D now that I've gotten back to the game. CCGs and RPGs aren't competitors for us, they're just different things you can do, and neither really takes over from the other because they're so different - each has its own time to be played, when you're in the right mood. So you shouldn't be nasty about Magic just because it is percieved as being a major competitor of RPGs. Over here, perhaps the real competitor with RPGs is miniature wargaming. Besides, if you've never played it, how can you possibly know Magic is so bad? Saying that you've seen people get "addicted" to it is silly - just because you have fun playing something and spend lots of money on it doesn't mean it's bad for you! Plus, how addicted are you to RPGs if you make enough time for yourself every day to read this whole list. Addiction can be quite healthy, otherwise known as devotion or loyalty. In case you are wondering from that what my personal opinion of Magic is, I do play it occasionally (with my brother and cousins) and it can be quite fun. The main reasons I don't particularly enjoy it are (1) it is a little too competitive and sometimes makes you fall out with people (just like a great many games - RPGs being the general exception) and (2) I really dislike the (lack of) storyline, which is really awfully dull and boring. The new set was supposed to fix this (apparently) but there's not a lot of difference IMO. In general it is an okay game, but I'd mostly rather play either D&D or a different CCG (Middle-earth, which has it's own problems - but that's another matter entirely; in any case I think a system like the MECCG one would be better for Mystara). And as I said, it isn't really a matter of "Let's play D&D tonight!" "No, let's play Magic instead." It depends on how you feel at the time. >What I object to, is the transition of Mystara _exclusively_ to a Magic: >The Gathering type setting. I wouldn't mind seeing a card game based on >Mystara, provided that didn't mean that the game itself was not going to >get any other kind of support, product wise. I agree, but the point (as I know some of you have realised) is that it might be a means to an end - Mystara CCG comes out (I would be a very strong proponent of them making it a new CCG rather than just a Magic expansion) and interest in Mystara becomes far more widespread again. That could pave the way for Mystara's return, preferably IMO in a new, more flexible TSR RPG system all of is own, nothing like AD&D which is a little out-of-date. (Not that important as I've said before, but why not start a new system rather than trying to overcrowd AD&D yet more? Maybe it could be a revised and remodelled Original Dungeons & Dragons.) I should note however that I am only in favour of the Magic TO Mystara conversion, not vice versa. :-) >> Mystara, and possibly desire to play in Mystara... besides, there is ALREADY >> a Mystara Magic set... it's called Weatherlight... :) > >I'm not sure I follow here, but then, I don't often play Magic (and only >own a deck or two of the original and an Ice Age deck...) Over here Weatherlight is commonly referred to as the "Princess Ark" expansion - perhaps due to it being based around the exploits of a flying ship and her crew... Also the Weatherlight itself looks VERY like a Spelljammer. Anyway, though it kinda annoys me, it certainly shows how many people have knowledge of Mystara over here... Finally, remember, Magic is just another game, don't get all riled up about it! The people who play it are no more obsessed or addicted than we are with Mystara. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:11:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Treman1997@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC survey. << Hey, stop and think before you do this. You may think that it will look like there are more people begging for Mystara to come back, but you have no way of knowing if they aren't taking other information from your browser - -- i.e. the IP address you are logging in from and what page you accessed prior to accessing thier page, etc. If they even think that their statistics are getting skewed by having multiple entries from one (or more) persons they won't take the results nearly as seriously as they otherwise might.>> Yeah, I didn't get to actually "filling out" more than one, but the one I did fill out was truly sincere. Thank you for letting me know I would confuse things. I love Mystara and I would love to see it back in its full effect, but I would take any sort of comeback. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:21:42 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC survey. On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 Treman1997@aol.com wrote: > >Don't remember whether this has been said on here or not, if > >so I'm sorry. But on WotC web page there is a survey regarding > >to TSR's products, so I would like everyone take a minute or > >two to complete the survey and show support of Mystara. The > >URL is http://www.wizards.com/Misc/TSRSurvey.html. > > > Hey, I filled out one, now I am going to fill out another, and another, > and another.................. > That's exactly my problem. After all, besides Mystara, I also love Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Al-Qadim. What am I going to do?!!! Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:36:06 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantri On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > 2)How's that witches lose 2 pts of Charisma every circle and most witches in > > the Marauders, Mages and Masters section have a high Charisma (the High > > mistress should have no more than 18-5*2=8 and Carnelia has 13, for example). > > I always wondered this one myself. You notice that this requirement was > dropped in G:KoM boxed set... Bruce, any thoughts on this? > Maybe the Charisma penalty only applies if it is known that she is a witch? Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:39:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] responses to posts Form: Memo Text: (29 lines follow) > it, rather than let someone else bastardize it to whatever nefarious ends > they see fit. Somehow the merging of Magic:The Gathering and Mystara > under the guidance of WotC does not make me jump for joy. > > Jason > tzbyxx@echidna.stu.cowan.edu.au > I agree both ... - -- Sebastian Quiles ****************************** Please snip responses!... especially if you're reposting a 28-line message just to type 3 words at the bottom! thank you LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 webpage: members.aol.com/b1bard/ Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:05:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Re: [ADMIN] Your Friendly Neighborhood Administrator's New Address (was: Re: ... In a message dated 97-06-15 13:38:43 EDT, you write: << I guess this is a good chance for me to inform everyone that my e-mail address has been temporarily changed to the first address in my .sig. I am not sure why Mystaros is receiving these messages, but I will look into it. >> Thank you! Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:16:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? In a message dated 97-06-15 20:58:30 EDT, you write: << What I object to, is the transition of Mystara _exclusively_ to a Magic: The Gathering type setting. I wouldn't mind seeing a card game based on Mystara, provided that didn't mean that the game itself was not going to get any other kind of support, product wise.>> Personally I would love to see ANYTHING about Mystara, so long as it is done well in it's own idiom (heck, a well done series of 3 and 1/4 inch tall figures like the Star Wars figures would be cool). Anything done well would have a positive impact on the possibility of seeing Mystara as an RPG setting once again.. <<> Mystara, and possibly desire to play in Mystara... besides, there is ALREADY > a Mystara Magic set... it's called Weatherlight... :) I'm not sure I follow here, but then, I don't often play Magic (and only own a deck or two of the original and an Ice Age deck...) >> Well, the Weatherlight sets "grand scheme" is that it tells the tale of a magical flying ship that is exploring the various lands of the Domains, encountering new and old Dominarian races in their varous countries... sound familiar? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:20:33 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC survey. Aleksei At 11:21 AM 6/16/97 +0300, you wrote: >On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 Treman1997@aol.com wrote: > >> Hey, I filled out one, now I am going to fill out another, and another, >> and another.................. >> >That's exactly my problem. After all, besides Mystara, I also love >Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Al-Qadim. What am I going to do?!!! I would suggest that you /SAY SO/ in your comments field. In other words, fill it in the first time and say something like:: "I happen to have comments and concerns regarding the following TSR Worlds: Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun and Al-Qadim. You have asked for my 'top three' comments only, but this would stop me from commenting on at least one of these worlds. So, I will give you my top three comments for each world, since this seems like a better solution than filling in your form multiple times." and then go on with your comments. If you are thoughtful and mature I believe that such comments would still get considered by WoC. That's what I think anyway, YMMV. Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:26:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Golden Box? On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Geoff Gander wrote: > Excuse me for sounding ignorant, but what exactly is the Gold Box? > Is it the old Immortal Rules boxed set? yep. The old rules were the basic set(red box) expart(blue) companion (green), master(black) and Immortal(gold). I suppose its better to refer to the rules sets with proper names since people who dont have the books or own them in a different formates might get confused. Who said only mages can cause Confusion? ;) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:28:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Let WotC know On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Sven Munther wrote: > > Hello all > > I do not know if this list still exist - I have not > seen any postings for ages, but: Then you have a problem. There has been several postings on this list recently. Try resubscribing or contacting Leroy for help. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:12:38 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? At 01.42 16/06/97 +0100, you wrote: >It kinda surprises me too. At least over here in Scotland, CCGs haven't >killed RPGs to any extent whatsoever. Take my brother for example - he >played D&D almost as much as I did when we were younger, and it >gradually faded away a few years ago. Then a few years AFTER that, he >got into CCGs, and he is still into Magic. BUT... he still plays D&D >now that I've gotten back to the game. CCGs and RPGs aren't competitors >for us, they're just different things you can do, and neither really >takes over from the other because they're so different - each has its >own time to be played, when you're in the right mood. CCGs haven't killed RPGs here in Italy too, but they're stealing possible RPG players. Now I explain better what I mean. The people who played RPGs before the birth of Magic still play RPGs, instead the younger generation started playing Magic before playing RPGs and consider RPGs something "old". A few years ago when Magic was at its top you could buy it even at news-stands ! But probably the reason I don't like Magic is another one. In my hometown there's a big (well, at least for Italians) gaming convention twice a year. Since the birth of Magic about half of the convention area was devoted to Magic with scores of young guys trading cards (and leaving empty envelopes on the ground...) leaving to RPGs only a small area. BTW: there's an italian newsgroup (it.hobby.giochi.rpg) where they're discussing if D&D and AD&D are really RPG and if OD&D has a setting (someone describes Mystara as "anonymous", "not plausible" and "not consistent")! Well, enough rambling. Leroy, stop us before we get really off-topic ! ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:30:17 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] I See (Almost) All... (was: MAGIC: Mystara?) [stuff on Magic mercilessly expunged] > Leroy, stop us before we get really off-topic ! Fear not, the glassy eyes of Big Brother sees all, knows all that conspires [1] on the list, and will stop you before you harm yourself... [1] Except when he doesn't, which happens when he doesn't read all posts to the list. Big Brother is s shiftless being, easily distracted. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:20:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Personally I would love to see ANYTHING about Mystara, so long as it is done > well in it's own idiom (heck, a well done series of 3 and 1/4 inch tall > figures like the Star Wars figures would be cool). Anything done well would > have a positive impact on the possibility of seeing Mystara as an RPG setting > once again.. Remember, TSR did have those action figures years ago- Strongheart, Good Paladin; Warduke, Evil Warlord. With XL-1, these personalities became Mystara-ized. :) > Well, the Weatherlight sets "grand scheme" is that it tells the tale of a > magical flying ship that is exploring the various lands of the Domains, > encountering new and old Dominarian races in their varous countries... sound > familiar? Ahh, yes... "To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before." Oh- wait. You meant the Princess Ark? :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:31:29 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] responses to posts GUILLORY: BRANT wrote: > > [...snipped again...] > > Please snip responses!... especially if you're reposting a 28-line message > just to type 3 words at the bottom! Thanks for sending this reminder out Brant. I've been meanning to suggest this myself for a while but kept hoping that it would work itself out on its own. (I know, I'm such an optimist) Please everyone, as Brant has commented -- if you are responding to a message, snip out all parts of the response that are unnecessary for understanding of the context. ESPECIALLY if you are adding only a few words. The rest of us have already read the message you are responding to and don't need to see /all/ of it again -- only the parts that are relevant to what you are saying. Also, 'me too' posts should really be kept to a minimum. And when you do send them, try and say more than just 'me too' -- say /why/ you agree with the post you are responding to. I, for one, am more interested in knowing that than knowing just that you agree. Did you know that, in the past, there were some Mail and USENET News programs that wouldn't let you send a response unless there was more than 50% new text? Not all that bad an idea, really. This is really just common 'Netiquette'. If you plan to use mail lists and/or USENET news a lot, you should learn to do this. For more information on general Netiquette read RFC1855 which can be found at the URL: ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc1855.txt Jenni PS: Sorry, Leroy, for making 'admin' type comments, but it is a problem that has been noticable on this list. -JAMM PPS: We don't have to continue discussing this on list since it is sort of off topic. Anyone who wants to discuss it with me (or Brant) further should probably write to us privately. -JAMM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:01:18 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: [Mystara] Alphatian Wizards This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------3AA97555199E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just came up with this new kit for an Alphatian Wizard. I'm interested in any feedback you guys may have. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am also in the process of creating an Alphatian Commando kit. I'll get that one out in a few days. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net - --------------3AA97555199E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="Alphatian1.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Alphatian1.htm" Content-Base: "file:///A|/Alphatian1.htm"

Alphatian Wizard

Requirements: Alphatian Wizards must always be of Alphatian decent. They may be of either sex, and must have an Intelligence score of at least 9. Speciality wizards are almost always from elemental school of air, although any school is possible. Fire wizards are not trusted.

Description: Alphatian wizards feel they are superior to all non-spell casters, but being able to cast any spell is enough to be considered nobility in their empire. Alphatian Wizards will eventually have access to just about every common spell at some point in their career. Alphatians are experts at magical engineering, and most have very unusual if not unique magic items. The only reason Alphatian Wizards adventure is to accumulate money to build a laboratory and create magic spells and items. They also like to conquer other people.

Weapon Proficiencies: As for the wizard class.

Nonweapon Proficiencies: Bonus: monster lore, spellcraft, reading/writing

Required: none

Suggested: magical engineering

Armour and Equipment: As for wizard class

Special Benefits: Alphatian Wizards are natural born spell casters. Because of their ancestry Alphatian Mages can automatically learn one additional spell per level that the wizard can cast. Alphatian specalists are rare because of the war that destroyed their old world, but their are a few schools around the continent. Alphatian specialists still only get the one extra spell per level, and it must be in their school. So the mage class is the most popular. Alphatian Wizards also get bonus spells for high intelligence just like clerics do fo high wisdom.

Special Limitations: Alphatians tend to be very arrogant towards non-spell users. So with these classes Alphatian Wizards take a -2 penalty to reaction rolls. However, this can be overcome by experienced adventurers. For every six levels gained there is a +1 bonus to this reaction roll. At level 12 there is a normal reaction roll, and the bounuses stop there. - --------------3AA97555199E-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:46:33 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Al-Kalim Question Say- anyone else notice how much the Al-Kalim aspect of Ylari religion was played up in post-GAZ2 products? I mean, in GAZ2, it is explicitly stated that the bidding/honoring of Immortals is the top priority of Ylari, then comes the Dream of the Desert Garden, and then the Word of Al-Kalim (if I'm remembering correctly- I do know that the Immortals are number one, though). It seems they've become a bit more fanatic about Al-Kalim's teachings of late... :( ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:29:28 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Al-Kalim Question At 21.46 16/06/97 -0700, Cthul wrote: >Say- anyone else notice how much the Al-Kalim aspect of Ylari religion >was played up in post-GAZ2 products? I mean, in GAZ2, it is explicitly >stated that the bidding/honoring of Immortals is the top priority of >Ylari, then comes the Dream of the Desert Garden, and then the Word of >Al-Kalim (if I'm remembering correctly- I do know that the Immortals are >number one, though). > >It seems they've become a bit more fanatic about Al-Kalim's teachings of >late... :( Well, i surmise that since the Nahmeh comprises the teachings of the Dream of the Desert Garden and the proper way to behave and honor the Immortal Guardians, then the Ylari tend to see it as the Word of the Immortals themselves, and so pay it much more attention than what Al-Kalim intended, maybe. But another issue has come to my mind. It is said that Ylari are religious bygots that cannot accept there are other immortals besides Al-Kalim and the Old Man of the Sea (Ethengar Gaz reports this, as well as the general attitude Ylari vs other beliefs and descriptions found in other gazetteers testifies). But IIRC, Al-Kalim talks about Immortal GuardianS, so i presume that the Ylari actually worship others beside Al-Kalim and Protius, but this is nowhere specified. What is the truth, then? DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:01:41 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Attachments Mystarans, Since someone just sent an attachment to the list this seems like a good time to mention that it is best to put any text in the body of the e-letter. Attachments are notorious for causing problems with the list, plus many end up not getting them. Yes, yes, this should be in the FAQ. When I next update it it will be added. What I need to do is win the lottery so I can quit work and devote my time to updating the MML page. Or I could start charging everyone $100 to subscribe. Hmmm... at ninety-some subscribers that would a fair bit of money... :) Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:09:27 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Netiquette and The Force That Is The Administrator (was: responses to posts) > PS: Sorry, Leroy, for making 'admin' type comments, but it is a problem > that has been noticable on this list. -JAMM Actually, when it comes to stuff like this, as long as people are civil I prefer to see the list police itself. For some things, such as one person telling another to end a discussion because it is off topic, I prefer that was left up to me. But a friendly reminder from one person to another on netiquette is much better than the Admin stepping in. No use having The Man put his foot down on trivial stuff. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:44:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Al-Kalim Question On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > Well, i surmise that since the Nahmeh comprises the teachings of the Dream > of the Desert Garden and the proper way to behave and honor the Immortal > Guardians, then the Ylari tend to see it as the Word of the Immortals > themselves, and so pay it much more attention than what Al-Kalim intended, > maybe. That's a good way of looking at things. > But another issue has come to my mind. It is said that Ylari are religious > bygots that cannot accept there are other immortals besides Al-Kalim and the > Old Man of the Sea (Ethengar Gaz reports this, as well as the general > attitude Ylari vs other beliefs and descriptions found in other gazetteers > testifies). But IIRC, Al-Kalim talks about Immortal GuardianS, so i presume > that the Ylari actually worship others beside Al-Kalim and Protius, but this > is nowhere specified. What is the truth, then? See- this is what I was talking about. GAZ2 mentions this bit about the Immortal Guardians, and paying them homage, but it seems like every subsequent product discounted this and made the Ylari into fanatical, singleminded followers of Al-Kalim, and completely discounted any thought of any other Immortal. There should definitely be other Immortals worshipped in the Emirates, as much as (if not moreso) than Al-Kalim. For one thing, Al-Kalim's ascension to Immortality was only recent, and his contribution to Emirates society and culture (though massive) was also only recently, in historical terms. Whereas Ylaruam itself, consisting of a number of social and cultural groups, has been around for a much longer time. Just the fact that Al-Kalim sought out the aid of the Old Man in the Sea in the first place should be evidence of the place the Immortal Guardians have in Ylari society. IIRC, there are a couple of other Immortals mentioned therein- the Old Man in the Sea (Protius), Thanatos (reviled and hated), his ally Corona (Ranivorus), and the Old Man's ally and friend Zephyr (Ixion, maybe?). Maybe a clarification of Ylari religion is in order... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:52:02 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Confusion (was Re: Golden Box?) On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Who said only mages can cause Confusion? ;) Talking of which (I know you weren't, but I'm going to...), has anyone else noticed how great a spell Confusion is? I was recently playing a game which climaxed in the three players trying to kill a wizard. One of his tactics was to cast levitate, protection from normal missiles and confusion, causing the PCs to start picking on each other and not be able to plan to get round his levitated position. The reason the spell is so nasty is that it lasts for 12 rounds, and any unaffected character still has to make a saving throw EACH of those rounds, which means even a 2+ save will probably fail eventually! Within five rounds, in my game, all three PCs were "under the influence," so to speak. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:22:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] MAGIC: Mystara? In a message dated 97-06-17 04:04:15 EDT, you write: << Remember, TSR did have those action figures years ago- Strongheart, Good Paladin; Warduke, Evil Warlord. With XL-1, these personalities became Mystara-ized. :)>> Remember... I did say anything done *well*... <> As they say, "There's nothing new under the sun"... but Weatherlight is still more "Princess Ark" than Star Trek... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:28:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Al-Kalim Question In a message dated 97-06-17 07:08:04 EDT, you write: << But another issue has come to my mind. It is said that Ylari are religious bygots that cannot accept there are other immortals besides Al-Kalim and the Old Man of the Sea (Ethengar Gaz reports this, as well as the general attitude Ylari vs other beliefs and descriptions found in other gazetteers testifies). But IIRC, Al-Kalim talks about Immortal GuardianS, so i presume that the Ylari actually worship others beside Al-Kalim and Protius, but this is nowhere specified. What is the truth, then? DM >> I would suppose that the religio-philosophical structure of the Ethengar (Spirit World Oriented) would not mingle well with the religio-philosophical structure of the Ylari (Mystara/Immortals Oriented). Shaman vs. Imam, so to speak. Or perhaps the Immortals of the Ethengar are not "Enlightened", to use an Al Qadim term. In this case, who would the "Enlightened" Immortals of the Ylari be? Protius and Al Kalim, for certain, but who else? Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #100 *****************************