From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #101 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, June 22 1997 Volume 02 : Number 101 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:09:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Confusion (was Re: Golden Box?) On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > Talking of which (I know you weren't, but I'm going to...), has anyone > else noticed how great a spell Confusion is? I was recently playing a > game which climaxed in the three players trying to kill a wizard. One > of his tactics was to cast levitate, protection from normal missiles and > confusion, causing the PCs to start picking on each other and not be > able to plan to get round his levitated position. As a DM, I *hate* the confusion spell with a passion, because it slows down the game tremendously having to roll saves and outcomes and record them for everyone affected EVERY round. The idea is cool, but it's far too much of a pain in my rear. I'm keeping it out of my current campaign. Just my view, / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:18:36 +0200 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: Re: [Mystara] Al-Kalim Question At 09.44 17/06/97 -0700, Cthul wrote: > >See- this is what I was talking about. GAZ2 mentions this bit about the >Immortal Guardians, and paying them homage, but it seems like every >subsequent product discounted this and made the Ylari into fanatical, >singleminded followers of Al-Kalim, and completely discounted any thought >of any other Immortal. > >There should definitely be other Immortals worshipped in the Emirates, as >much as (if not moreso) than Al-Kalim. For one thing, Al-Kalim's >ascension to Immortality was only recent, and his contribution to >Emirates society and culture (though massive) was also only recently, in >historical terms. Whereas Ylaruam itself, consisting of a number of >social and cultural groups, has been around for a much longer time. Maybe, but just maybe, Al-Kalim wanted the ylari to worship all the good (Guardian) Immortals in the same way, saying that there was no difference among them as there was not between the men of the desert. However, his interpretation of the behaviour towards immortals may have been misinterpreted by his successors (it's understandable: look how many different sects and religions exist that base themselves on different interpretations of the same text, the Bible). So now the Ylari only worship the one who united and taught them the way of the honor, Al-Kalim the High Prophet, and the Immortal who aided and believed in him, Protius (whose connection with water -life-, which is absent in Ylaruam, has been well noticed by the followers). >Just the fact that Al-Kalim sought out the aid of the Old Man in the Sea >in the first place should be evidence of the place the Immortal Guardians >have in Ylari society. IIRC, there are a couple of other Immortals >mentioned therein- the Old Man in the Sea (Protius), Thanatos (reviled >and hated), his ally Corona (Ranivorus), and the Old Man's ally and >friend Zephyr (Ixion, maybe?). Ok, this is not conpletely correct. According to GAZ2, three Immortals planned the corruption of Nithia: Thanatos, his secret ally Corona and the Gnoll. Obviously the Gnoll is Ranivorus, so Corona cannot be another name of Ranivorus. My question is then: who the heck is this guy? It's the second time i ask it, so don't answer with the Corona-Tequila stuff again, ok (it was really funny, though)... ;) As for Zephyr, i think this has not been detailed cause he was only mentioned once (like Corona) and played not a major role in any other known events. Maybe he and Corona are now dead, so that's why they've not been detailed. Zephyr could also be Sinbad: zephyr is a kind of air current, and Sinbad is from the Sphere of Thought IIRC, so this is the connection (a tenuus one for the best). The same fate has befall Forsetta (or Forseti)... >Maybe a clarification of Ylari religion is in order... Definitely. This is my take on it, but since the issue is very ambigous and not well detailed, others' comments are welcomed.. DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:38:33 +0200 From: dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it Subject: Re: [Mystara] Confusion At 19.52 17/06/97 +0100, you wrote: >Talking of which (I know you weren't, but I'm going to...), has anyone >else noticed how great a spell Confusion is? I was recently playing a >game which climaxed in the three players trying to kill a wizard. One >of his tactics was to cast levitate, protection from normal missiles and >confusion, causing the PCs to start picking on each other and not be >able to plan to get round his levitated position. > >Thorf. > Mmhh.. personally i don't like it very much only for 1 reason: the affected creatures can either turn against themselves, OR against the enemy OR do nothing. This means that they don't automatically turn against themselves, and so this could prove quite useless (i don't remember the chance offhand, but i think it's 1/3 to go one against the other... not much for a 4th level spell) DM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:28:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] netMAG correction Form: Memo Text: (25 lines follow) As soon as I get around to updating my webpage, I'll include this comment there, but for the record: The Varellya timeline in the recent netMAG (#6 or 7) was done by Geoff Gander. I accentally attributed it to Shawn down under in Australia. One of my personal pet peeves is to have things mis-attributed, so I'm really miffed at myself for messing this up. Geoff - I'm sorry, and I hope this doesn't prevent you (or anyone else) from emailing me contributions for the next netMAG (probably 4th of July wknd 'cause I have 4 days off...) Take care everybody. LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 webpage: members.aol.com/b1bard/ Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:51:52 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Confusion (was Re: Golden Box?) At 19.52 17/06/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >>Who said only mages can cause Confusion? ;) > >Talking of which (I know you weren't, but I'm going to...), has anyone >else noticed how great a spell Confusion is? I was recently playing a >game which climaxed in the three players trying to kill a wizard. One >of his tactics was to cast levitate, protection from normal missiles and >confusion, causing the PCs to start picking on each other and not be >able to plan to get round his levitated position. > >The reason the spell is so nasty is that it lasts for 12 rounds, and any >unaffected character still has to make a saving throw EACH of those >rounds, which means even a 2+ save will probably fail eventually! >Within five rounds, in my game, all three PCs were "under the >influence," so to speak. I used it once in my campaign. The PC were escorting a mage out of Boldavia. After several attacks by zombies, ghouls and the like, a night they were attacked by a pack of wolves, one of wich was a vampire. The PC, having already used most of their spell, were in deep trouble defending the mage, so he decided to cast Confusion... and that's what happened: a great confusion. In the end one of my PC beheaded the mage and the vampire went away (not before touching another PC that foolishly attacked him). Really a great spell. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 20:43:35 EDT From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Mystara] netMAG correction > Geoff - I'm sorry, and I hope this doesn't prevent you (or anyone else) from > emailing me contributions for the next netMAG (probably 4th of July wknd > 'cause I have 4 days off...) Hey, no problem! I'm glad that it's now in a place where everyone can use it, and make their campaigns livelier for it! Geoff - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Studentus Emeritus Ad Nauseam Carleton University General wanderer by principle, adventurer by profession Email address: ggander@chat.carleton.ca - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:17:25 +0800 (WST) From: Jason MURPHY Subject: Re: [Mystara] Confusion On Wed, 18 Jun 1997 dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it wrote: > At 19.52 17/06/97 +0100, you wrote: > >Talking of which (I know you weren't, but I'm going to...), has anyone > >else noticed how great a spell Confusion is? I was recently playing a > Mmhh.. personally i don't like it very much only for 1 reason: the affected > creatures can either turn against themselves, OR against the enemy OR do > nothing. This means that they don't automatically turn against themselves, > and so this could prove quite useless (i don't remember the chance offhand, > but i think it's 1/3 to go one against the other... not much for a 4th > level spell) > > DM > Actually i think a great deal of it. In most campaign i have DM'ed or played a party would consist of on average 6 characters. Now if even one of these characters was turned upon the party, the dillemma caused would always far outway the actual physical/numerical difference made to the competing sides. The main reason being the party would always be torn between alowwing the character to hopefully come back around before he did two much damage, or trying to put him out of commission by attacking him back. Noone likes to kill a fellow character, well except in certain politically based campaigns that i have played... but i digress. In short Confusion can be one hell of nasty spell. All IMO of course. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:59:30 +0200 From: Ivar Brath Lien Subject: [Mystara] Dragonlord Hi! I'm currently reading "Dragonlord of Mystara", wnich by the way is a great and very well-written book. It's just one thing that wonders me. The party (Thelvyn and the gang) prepared an artifact of entropy to make it easier to fight a dragon. They were going to The World Mountain to put entropy in to the artifact. The one thing I'm wondering about is: How was the artifact prepared so that it later could contain entropy? Anyone? - -- Levandi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:09:46 +0800 (WST) From: Jason MURPHY Subject: [Mystara] Upcoming Projects Well with the eventual demise of the university semester, i will find my self with some spare time on my hand... what a novel idea. Now i am sure that if i dont make use of this time my girlfriend will make use of it for me... so I am wondering if there are any Mystara projects being developed or impending that i may assist on. I would much rather spend my spare time doing something for the campaigning world i adore, than for example cleaning the gutters of our house. Actually i will probably have to clean the gutters as well anyway. :( Thanx in advance. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:29:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Al-Kalim Question On Wed, 18 Jun 1997 dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it wrote: > >Just the fact that Al-Kalim sought out the aid of the Old Man in the Sea > >in the first place should be evidence of the place the Immortal Guardians > >have in Ylari society. IIRC, there are a couple of other Immortals > >mentioned therein- the Old Man in the Sea (Protius), Thanatos (reviled > >and hated), his ally Corona (Ranivorus), and the Old Man's ally and > >friend Zephyr (Ixion, maybe?). > > Ok, this is not conpletely correct. According to GAZ2, three Immortals > planned the corruption of Nithia: Thanatos, his secret ally Corona and the > Gnoll. Obviously the Gnoll is Ranivorus, so Corona cannot be another name > of Ranivorus. My question is then: who the heck is this guy? It's the > second time i ask it, so don't answer with the Corona-Tequila stuff again, > ok (it was really funny, though)... ;) Hmm... according to my GAZ2, in the entry for the Bead of Oblivion (page 61), it says the Bead was created by the Old Man in the Sea, The Gnoll, and Zephyr, to guard against the evils wrought by Thanatos (and his secret ally, Corona). Maybe they changed this in later printings, or overseas... Given the above, and taking into account later canon, it does seem odd that The Gnoll would be a "good" ally- unless The Gnoll is simply a name the Ylari have for, say Pflarr (who is gnoll-like). I suppose this bit was overlooked in later editions, and thus the apparent inconsistency. > As for Zephyr, i think this has not been detailed cause he was only > mentioned once (like Corona) and played not a major role in any other known > events. Maybe he and Corona are now dead, so that's why they've not been > detailed. Zephyr could also be Sinbad: zephyr is a kind of air current, and > Sinbad is from the Sphere of Thought IIRC, so this is the connection (a > tenuus one for the best). I'd say Zephyr would be some sort of wind/air related Immortal, but I can't think of any offhand. > The same fate has befall Forsetta (or Forseti)... Alas, yes. Poor, ignored Forsetta... :( > >Maybe a clarification of Ylari religion is in order... > > Definitely. This is my take on it, but since the issue is very ambigous and > not well detailed, others' comments are welcomed.. Indeed. Anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:07:43 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue Ok, this is a very difficult Rule Application problem, so concentrate. According to GAZ9, the Merchant Prince is a class that can be used by any character that already belongs to another class (ex: a fighter, an elf, a mage). To advance as a Merchant Prince, the character has to earn XP according to the table in GAZ9, and these are extra XP the PC must gain besides the ones required for his originary class advancement. Now, looking at the XP for the Merchant Princes, this means much work to do, cause to reach 20th level you need over 3 millions XP. But let's assume this is ok, this is the correct interpretation. Now, what really puzzles me is the statement regarding the spell progression table: "The Merchant Prince Spell Progression Table supercedes the one appropriate for the class the character originally belongs. Of course, magic-users and priests will have a much broader array of spells to choose from..." END QUOTE (more or less) > Now, since the MP spell progression table arrives only at 7th level of power, can any of you explain me where's the advantage for the Wizards who turn MP? they still have to earn the XP for their class, but they don't get any 8th or 9th level spells, and their "vast array" of spells to choose from is limited to 7th level, only 2 levels above the normal elf (and note that if an elf turns MP, he too can cast 6th and 7th level spells!)! Where's the advantage here??? Certainly i must be missing something, but i am not able to see it. Can anyone of you please enlighten me on this tricky subject? Thanx DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:13:58 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: [Mystara] Re: Dragonlord > Hi! > > I'm currently reading "Dragonlord of Mystara", wnich by the way is a > great and very well-written book. > > It's just one thing that wonders me. > The party (Thelvyn and the gang) prepared an artifact of entropy to make > it easier to fight a dragon. They were going to The World Mountain to > put entropy in to the artifact. > > The one thing I'm wondering about is: How was the artifact prepared so > that it later could contain entropy? > > Anyone? > > -- > Levandi You need to keep reading Levandi, any attempt to explain it would spoil what happens later. Suffice it to say that your question will be answered in the book. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:10:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > According to GAZ9, the Merchant Prince is a class that can be used by any > character that already belongs to another class (ex: a fighter, an elf, a > mage). To advance as a Merchant Prince, the character has to earn XP > according to the table in GAZ9, and these are extra XP the PC must gain > besides the ones required for his originary class advancement. Now, looking > at the XP for the Merchant Princes, this means much work to do, cause to > reach 20th level you need over 3 millions XP. But let's assume this is ok, > this is the correct interpretation. I've had the same thoughts, and dislike the sub-class for that reason. I much prefer to make it a class of its own, separate from any other classes, but haven't entirely figured out how to make that work yet... :( > Now, since the MP spell progression table arrives only at 7th level of > power, can any of you explain me where's the advantage for the Wizards who > turn MP? they still have to earn the XP for their class, but they don't get > any 8th or 9th level spells, and their "vast array" of spells to choose > from is limited to 7th level, only 2 levels above the normal elf (and note > that if an elf turns MP, he too can cast 6th and 7th level spells!)! > Where's the advantage here??? See there's that problem, not to mention another one I've noted, which is- Why can't Merchant-Princes learn to cast spells other than the ones listed for M-Ps? The Merchant-Prince spells were created jointly by Alphatian and Elven mages, so shouldn't they theoretically be able to learn normal Wizard spells from other wizards? And are Halflings and Dwarves who are Merchant-Princes able to cast spells? Seems a bit odd to me... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:29:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue The only advantage that a Mage would get would be an increased choice of spells -- presumably only a Merchant Prince can learn and cast Merchant Prince spells. But I would agree that the loss of 8th and 9th level spells does not compensate for this minor advantage. The way I would handle the Merchant Prince class is to make it available only to non-Mages. Clerics would still be able to learn 7th level spells, so they would work well as Merchant Princes. Mages who meet the requirements of the Merchant Prince class and are trained for it acquire the title of Merchant Prince but remain pure Mages -- although they now have access to Merchant Prince spells. The Merchant Prince spells are not so powerful that such characters would have an overwhelming advantage. As for Elves, that would depend on whether you are allowing them the option of advancing past 10th level as Mages. If so, then treat Elves as Mages for this purpose. However, if they are normally prohibited from gaining access to spells above level 5, then it would make sense to allow them to become Merchant Princes -- at very high levels, they would have access to spells of up to level 7 from both the Mage and Merchant Prince lists. The XP penalty is fair compensation for the increase in spell power. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:08:15 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Just A Test... Haven't seen any posts for a two days, which can make and Admin paranoid. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:17:23 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] PWA Errata Say- here's something to allay Leroy's paranoia. :) I was reading Dragon #189 last night (actually, all of the Known World Grimoire articles that deal with dominions and economica), and noticed something interesting. The article came out right after the first PWA, and Bruce listed bits of errata that were overlooked in the first one. Most interesting was where he clarified the square mileage of the Isle of Dawn territories to match what was given on the map included- for instance, Furmenglaive is given an area of 38,000 odd square miles, but it actually only (according to the map) covers about 9,000 odd square miles. What's even more interesting is that later editions of the PWA went by the information given in the first PWA, even though it is obviously false- and there is even a map of the Isle of Dawn in the third PWA that lists the more accurate (Bruce Heard given) areas of the dominions there. Hmmm.... On another note, does anyone else think that the armies of the Known World gives armies that are far too large to be reasonable? I mean, Aaron Allston doubled the size of Glantri's wartime army from the information given in GAZ3, and yet left Ethengar's army exactly the same size (sure, it's supposed to be their standing army in the PWA- presumably their wartime army is much larger- but the info in GAZ12 says that the army sizes given in the PWAs is the size of their wartime army). Just a couple of things to mull over... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:19:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Relics On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > Another issue: has any of you ever detailed the relics owned by each church > of the Old World (for example, IMC the Church of Traladara in Mirros has the > Sword of Halav as sacred relic) I think this is a good idea. Wasn't there a Shield of Halav mentioned in Hail of Heroes(I never bought it) Also, I suppose the churches will do anything to get their hands on artifacts created by their immortal. Why should some bizarre hero wield the blade of Vanya when it can rest protected in the vault of our temple? Ideas for relics Bow of Athruagin Screwdriver of Benekander Pearl of Calitha Diamond of err Diamamond.. Spear of Diulanna Chalice of Faunus Scull of HEl LEaf of Ilsundal Sunstones of Ixion Hourglass of Khoronus Rope of Korotiku Trident of Protius Granite Tree of Razud Tourches of Thanatos Anyone want to add something to the list, or perhaps work on some statistics? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:03:58 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue I'm still here Leroy :) On the Merchant Princes of Minrothad. I think they are plain silly. A better way to deal with them IMHO would be to replace them with a class simular to the Mercheants of Darokin. It would be an additional class Which experience points are gained only from the value of profits made by trading. The Merchant Princes could gain spells but not of such great power. Spells which are handy for trading and living at sea, but no combat oriented spells. What magic is this really. Im thinking this has nothing to do with clerical or wizardly spells. Rather this magic is ancient tricks taught to Man by the spirits. Clerical magic requires the attunement to an immortal and involves using your share of that holy power. Wizard Magic requires years of study and involves the control of strange energy fields. Merchant magic is different. Its is part of whats called commoners magic. It requires no more than talent and will. just my thoughts. For you guys out there using AD&D, you could just change the class into a kit giving it a few magical powers and matching disadvantages. Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:42:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > On the Merchant Princes of Minrothad. I think they are plain silly. > A better way to deal with them IMHO would be to replace them with a class > simular to the Mercheants of Darokin. It would be an additional class > Which experience points are gained only from the value of profits made by > trading. I was thinking something along these lines myself, but I do sort of like the Merchant-Prince having many of those spells described. I'm torn between doing a Darokin Merchant type thingy with it, or with making it a separate class of its own (a la, Fighter, Cleric, Merchant-Prince, Mage, etc.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:41:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Ideas for relics > > Anyone want to add something to the list, or perhaps work on some > statistics? You're forgetting the infamous Blue Knife, of course. :) (FWIW, I think the Blue Knife is more than just a +1 dagger as Bruce describes in GAZ10- I'm working on developing it's artifact-like powers more. It will be something along the lines of: +1 dagger with certain abilities (Commanding, Ruling, something like that). Of course, one of it's handicaps/penalties will be that everyone who sees it wants it- can't think of what that was offhand, but there's an actual name for it.) Another couple of Relics would be the two maces described in the DA series of modules- one in the hands of the "Flying Monk" and the other is with (I believe) Scotty Debelfry. Two icons of the North. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:42:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One pontificated: > > (FWIW, I think the Blue Knife is more than just a +1 dagger as Bruce > describes in GAZ10- I'm working on developing it's artifact-like powers > more. It will be something along the lines of: +1 dagger with certain > abilities (Commanding, Ruling, something like that). Of course, one of > it's handicaps/penalties will be that everyone who sees it wants it- > can't think of what that was offhand, but there's an actual name for it.) > Are there differences between relics and artifacts? To me, artifacts are powerful magical items created by immortal, while relics are just something holy to a perticular religion, such as items used by the immortal while they are still mortal. While some artifacts might be consider as relics by certain religion, alot of relics are only normal items that happen to have some religious signifigance. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 14:53:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Are there differences between relics and artifacts? To me, artifacts > are powerful magical items created by immortal, while relics are just > something holy to a perticular religion, such as items used by the > immortal while they are still mortal. While some artifacts might > be consider as relics by certain religion, alot of relics are only > normal items that happen to have some religious signifigance. I'd say all artifacts are relics, since they have been created by immortals and should this be considered holy. But as you say, normal items with religios are also relics. Holy symbols is one example. Thats my interpretation of the terms anyway. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 14:46:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > Ideas for relics > > > > Anyone want to add something to the list, or perhaps work on some > > statistics? > > You're forgetting the infamous Blue Knife, of course. :) > > (FWIW, I think the Blue Knife is more than just a +1 dagger as Bruce > describes in GAZ10- I'm working on developing it's artifact-like powers > more. It will be something along the lines of: +1 dagger with certain > abilities (Commanding, Ruling, something like that). Of course, one of > it's handicaps/penalties will be that everyone who sees it wants it- > can't think of what that was offhand, but there's an actual name for it.) I've been thinking about that myself. Having the Blue Knife being just a knife +1 was fit with the silly humour style of the Broken Lands Gaz (Orcs of Thar), but if you want to take them a bit more seriously, their artifact should be a bit more powerful. Maybe the other powers havent been discovered yet. Some artifacts have to be activated through some ritual. Perhaps it must drain the blood of a prominent human or demihuman leader before the other powers can be activated? If Thar got his hands on it, he might get a chance of regaining his power. > Another couple of Relics would be the two maces described in the DA > series of modules- one in the hands of the "Flying Monk" and the other is > with (I believe) Scotty Debelfry. Two icons of the North. What are these? Who made them? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 15:01:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > On the Merchant Princes of Minrothad. I think they are plain silly. > > A better way to deal with them IMHO would be to replace them with a class > > simular to the Mercheants of Darokin. It would be an additional class > > Which experience points are gained only from the value of profits made by > > trading. > > I was thinking something along these lines myself, but I do sort of like > the Merchant-Prince having many of those spells described. I'm torn > between doing a Darokin Merchant type thingy with it, or with making it a > separate class of its own (a la, Fighter, Cleric, Merchant-Prince, Mage, > etc.) Well. It depends on how many classes you feel comfortable with. I prefer as few classes as possible and as many options for these as possible. Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Thief, and possibly Mystic (IMC Mystics are replaced by martial artist psionicists. Blanacers are clerics of the Nature Triad, Ordana, Djaea and Terra, and Druids are considered mages with nature magic) As for the spells of _Merchant Princes, I think they are a bit too powerful. Fireball, Lightning bolt, ball lightning. They should leave that to sea mages... My opinion ofcourse... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 14:04:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > I've been thinking about that myself. Having the Blue Knife being just a > knife +1 was fit with the silly humour style of the Broken Lands Gaz (Orcs > of Thar), but if you want to take them a bit more seriously, their > artifact should be a bit more powerful. Maybe the other powers havent been > discovered yet. Some artifacts have to be activated through some ritual. > Perhaps it must drain the blood of a prominent human or demihuman leader > before the other powers can be activated? Hmm- the sacrifice bit is interesting. Of course, the knife already has some sort of sacrificial power, as shown in GAZ10 (in the Oenkmar adventure, when PCs get their hearts cut out.) > > Another couple of Relics would be the two maces described in the DA > > series of modules- one in the hands of the "Flying Monk" and the other is > > with (I believe) Scotty Debelfry. Two icons of the North. > > What are these? Who made them? One is known as the "Holy Mace Icon of the North" and its twin (held by Scotty Debelfry) is another icon. No information as to who made them, but they are powerful magical maces. One of them is feared by orcs, and causes a morale check among that kind; the other does something similar as well. I'd imagine that they are probably artifacts that formerly belonged to the Thonian Church, and one was lost (ending up in the thief Debelfry's hands) while the other was given to the "Flying Monk", a cleric of Blackmoor. I'll look these up later and see what else I can find. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:57:51 -0400 (EDT) From: RLaRue@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics Greetings! Me again. Here's a magical item I created for my campaign. It's not an artifact, but it would be of some worth to a priest of Ordana (or any one else). Rick The Oak Leaf Pendent of Thendara This silver pendent is of exceptional craftsmanship, appearing to be a real oak leaf grown of silver. Upon placing the slender silver chain around ones neck, the wearer gains several exceptional abilities. If the wearer is a cleric of Ordana, they gain additional powers described below. The pendent bestows a +1 AC bonus to its wearer, as long as they are within a forest. Additionally, the pendent gives its owner a +2 reaction bonus from all non-evil forest creatures including elves, centaurs, dryads and treants as well as all normal forest animals. The pendent allows its owner to Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants once per day. If the owner is a cleric of Ordana the AC and reaction bonuses are doubled, plus the priest is allowed to memorize one additional spell for each spell level from one to four from the clerical spheres of Plant or Animal. The priest gains the extra spell slots only while wearing the pendant, and only if they have access to spells of that level. If the pendant is removed, the spells are lost. The pendent is an exceptional magical item and holy symbol of Ordana, lost centuries ago during the Rain of Fire that destroyed Blackmoor. Since then it has traveled from one treasure horde to the next, mistakenly believe to be merely a finely made trinket. XP Value: 4,000/6,000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:57:19 -0400 (EDT) From: RLaRue@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue Greetings! I'm new to the list, so I though I'd start by posting something I did a while ago. It kinda relates to the Merchant Prince/Darokin Merchant thread you've got going. I hope you enjoy it. Rick Darokin Merchant An AD&D (2nd. Ed.) Thief Character Kit for Mystara This class is a special Thief kit for merchants from the Republic of Darokin in the Known World of Mystara. It is based loosely on the Merchant D&D character class first presented in GAZ11 Republic of Darokin. Changes were made to remove magical abilities and replace them with mercantile skills. The class was changed to a thief kit and updated to AD&D. Kit Description: Darokin Merchants are the ultimate traders and businesspersons. They live for the sale and enjoy nothing more than skillful haggling with intelligent customers. Many love to travel, moving from town to town buying goods low and selling them high. These honest merchants are often welcomed where ever they go and sought out above other, less honorable traders. Some search for unique and wondrous goods in strange and distant lands. They will cross many miles of dangerous territory in search of something new that might be sold elsewhere for a fortune. They are an adventuresome lot that finds danger and excitement as often as profit. To help them in their mercantile ventures, they must learn many useful skills and abilities. Minimum Ability Scores: Intelligence 13 Charisma 12 If both Int and Cha are 16+ add 10% to earned experience points. Available Races: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf and Halfling. Level Advancement: As Thief Hit Dice: D6 Saving Throws: As Thief Combat: As Thief Weapons Allowed: As Thief Non-Weapon Proficiencies: General, Rogue and Warrior. Alignments Allowed: Any non-chaotic Merchant Abilities: (i.e. Thief Abilities) Ability: Base Score: Bribe 10% (see below) Detect Lie/Alignment 20% (see below) Find/Remove Traps 5% Read Languages 10% Followers (see below) Darokin Merchants begin at first level with 30 discretionary skill points to be applied to their abilities. They gain an additional 15 points for every level after. They do not have any other abilities normally associated with thieves. Bribe: The bribe ability is not used as often in Darokin business transactions as in other cultures. Since not all business people share Darokin business ethics, the ability represents a merchant's understanding of the subject, and is saved for times when less scrupulous merchants, tax collectors, or customs agents require such added motivation. Darokin Merchants' code of ethics prevents them from using this skill, except when all else fails and never on a fellow Darokin. This ability cannot be used to circumvent normal law, only as a defense against already dishonest business people. Detect Lie/Alignment: Since merchants deal with people every day of their lives, they tend to become good judges of character. On a successful roll the merchant can determine if someone is lying to them OR what their general alignment is. Followers: Darokin merchants will begin to attract employees as soon as they establish a trading company or a branch of an already established company. These employees will need to be paid, but are exceptionally loyal will stick by the merchant even when profits are down. The number, type and quality of the followers is up to the DM, but the reputation of the merchant and the recruiting location should be taken into consideration. Bonus Non-Weapon Proficiencies: Appraising, Etiquette, Fast Talk, Merchant, Orientation, Packing, Survival(Temperate), Teamster and Weather Knowledge. Suggested: Alertness, *Non-Weapon Prof. listed in Italics are new and are described below. Special Advantages: 1. All Darokin Merchants have the ability to estimate quantities of items after only a quick inspection. They are accurate within 20% -1%/level high or low. 2. Darokin Merchants are trained to be friendly and personable. This confers a reaction bonus of +2 to anyone they encounter. The bonus is increased to +4 in business situations were the other person knows the merchant is from Darokin due to their excellent reputation. 3. Darokin Merchants receive only 1 experience point per gold piece of treasure found. They gain 3 xp. for every gold piece of PROFIT they acquire in business transactions. This bonus is for net profit only, meaning any expenses incurred while the deal is being made are subtracted from the gross profit. This includes stock costs, overhead or any other expense directly related to the current deal. Special Disadvantages: Darokin Merchant's Guild: All Darokin Merchants must become members of the Darokin Merchants Guild. The Guild is highly respected in Darokin. In order to join the guild, you must be sponsored by an existing member in good standing and be approved by the membership committee. Annual dues are 1000 daros plus one-half a percent of all wholesale transactions made by the merchant. Guild members may not deal with non-guild members, but this prohibition does not include merchants from lands outside Darokin. Members can be expelled cheating a fellow guild member, doing anything to give the guild a bad name or committing a major crime. Honesty: In general, Darokin merchants are scrupulously honest and fair. They believe that anything achieved unfairly isn't worth it. This gives them an excellent reputation but limits their behavior. All transactions should be conducted honestly. This does not mean a merchant cannot sell shoddy goods, he just has to be honest with the customer about their quality. It also means that a deal is a deal. If a Darokin Merchant makes a deal, he will not break it later if someone comes along offering more gold. Merchants behave with honor and expect it in return. Anyone who cheats a Darokin merchant will soon find that other Darokin merchants refuse to deal with them. New Non-Weapon Proficiencies: Proficiency Type Cost Ability Fast Talk General 1 Cha+2 Merchant General 1 Int Packing General 1 Int +1 Smuggling Rogue 2 Int -1 Teamster General 1 Wis +2 Fast Talk: This skill allows the user to convince others that his point of view is correct. A successful roll gives a +4 reaction bonus to situations where the reactions of others can be influenced by the character. Merchant: This skill provides basic understanding of business and mercantilism. It includes skill in book keeping and accounting, inventory maintenance, advertising, customer service and sales. It provided characters with knowledge of the laws governing trade in their homeland. It allows characters to maintain a business on a day to day basis. A successful roll once a month can increase profit by 1-10%. A failed roll will reduce profits by the same amount. If no profits were made for that month, this skill has no effect. Packing: This skill provides knowledge of packing containers, animals and vehicles for travel. No roll is needed to pack something properly. If items are prepared for travel by someone with this skill, the chance of damaged goods is reduced by 25% and the distance traveled in a day is increased by 10%. A roll is required for extraordinary circumstance. Smuggling: This skill provided an understanding of smuggling. It includes knowledge of customs laws for a specific area as well as punishments for smuggling. Player's still have to come up with how they intend to smuggle something. The exact effects of a successful roll are left up to the DM, but successes should increase the chances of their plan working. Failure does not mean capture or discovery (unless they fail by a lot), but should make the player's jobs much more difficult and provide suitable role-playing opportunities. Teamster: This skill is identical to Animal Handling, but is specific to animals used for transporting goods. APPENDIX 1: Spell Casting Darokin Merchant For those of you who are purists, use the following rules to create a spell casting merchant . Spell casting merchants gain the use of low level spells at the cost of an increase in the number of experience points need to achieve new levels, fewer bonus non-weapon proficiencies and higher ability requirements. Their choice of spells is limited to those that are somehow related to the daily life of a merchant. Spell casting merchants must have a minimum 12 Dex in addition to those listed above. Level Advancement: As Thief + 25% Bonus Non-Weapon Proficiencies: The spell casting merchant may choose any five of the following as bonus non-weapon proficiencies: Appraising, Etiquette, Fast Talk, Merchant, Orientation, Packing, Survival(Temperate), Teamster and Weather Knowledge. Special Advantages: Spell casting Darokin Merchants have the same special advantages as listed above. Spell Casting Abilities: This type of merchant gains limited spell casting ability at fifth level. Use Table 1 to determine spell progression. Spell casting merchants have a limited choice of available spells, see Table 2 for a list. When determining the caster's level for range etc., subtract 4 from the caster's actual level (i.e. a fifth level Merchant casts spells as a first level mage). All spells must be memorized from a spell book as a magic-user and require 10 rounds of study per level per spell. Table 1. Spell Progression Level 1 2 3 1 - - - 2 - - - 3 - - - 4 - - - 5 1 - - 6 1 - - 7 1 1 - 8 2 1 - 9 2 1 1 10 2 2 1 11 3 2 1 12 3 2 2 13 3 3 2 Table 2. Spell List 1st Level: Affect Normal Fires Alarm Cantrip Charm Person Clear Sight Comprehend Languages Detect Magic Enlarge Friends Identify Ignore Road Conditions Light Magic Missile Mending Message Mount Protection from Evil Read Magic Tenser's Floating Disk Unseen Servant Wizard Mark 2nd Level: Animal Friendship Calm Animal Crowd Summoning Continual Light Deeppockets Detect Evil Detect Invisibility Endure Heat/Cold Knock Know Alignment Know Direction Leomund's Trap Levitate Locate Object Misdirection Magic Mouth Scare Strength Wizard Lock 3rd Level: Detect Lie Dispel Magic Explosive Runes Find Traps Hold Animal Hold Person Infravision Item Know Custom Lighten Load Non-Detection Phantom Steed Protection from Normal Missiles Secret Page Suggestion Tongues Weather Prediction New Wizard Spells: 1st Level: Clear Sight (Divination) Range: 500 feet per level Components: V, S, M Duration: 2 rounds/level Casting Time: 2 Area of Effect: 30 foot radius Saving Throw: None This spell allows the caster to view distant locations as if they were ten feet away. The caster must have a direct line of sight to the spot to be viewed. This spell does not allow the caster to see through objects or inside buildings and such. The material components for this spell are two magnifying glasses held up to the eyes, , which are not expended in the casting.. Ignore Road Conditions (Enchantment/Charm) Range: Touch Components: V, S, M Duration: 2 hours/level Casting Time: 1 round Area of Effect: One creature per level Saving Throw: None This spell can be cast on the animals and drivers of a caravan. It provides them with the ability to choose the best course over whatever terrain they are traveling, reducing movement penalties. It does not increase the rate of movement so much as decrease the negative effects of terrain on movement. The spell negates penalties of one mile per day per level up to the normal maximum for the creature concerned moving over a good quality road. This spell does not effect a creature's combat movement, only their ability to move safely and quickly over long distances. The material component of this spell is a small silver horseshoe of 100gp value, which is not expended in the casting. 2nd Level: Animal Friendship As the 1st level priest spell of the same name. PHB p.198 Calm Animal As the 1st level priest spell of the same name. PO:S&M p.161 Crowd Summoning (Conjuration/Summoning) Range: Special Components: V, S Duration: 1 round/level Casting Time: 1 round Area of Effect: 25 foot radius per level Saving Throw: Neg. This spell allows the caster to attract the attention of any intelligent creatures in the area of effect. Their attention will be subtly drawn to the casters' actions and words. The spell does not provide the caster with the ability to influence the summoned crowd, he or she just holds their attention for the duration of the spell. All intelligent creatures are entitled to a saving throw versus magic each round to attempt to break the spells hold if they wish. A successful save frees the recipient before the end of the spell duration. His attention is still momentarily drawn to the caster, but not long enough to disrupt spell casting. Endure Heat/Cold As the 1st level priest spell of the same name. PHB p.200 Know Direction As the 1st level priest spell of the same name. TOM p52. 3rd Level: Detect Lie As the 4th level priest spell of the same name. PHB p.217 Find Traps As the 2nd level priest spell of the same name. PHB p.204 Hold Animal As the 3rd level priest spell of the same name. PHB p.211 Know Custom As the 3rd level priest spell of the same name. TOM p.67 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #101 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #102 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, June 27 1997 Volume 02 : Number 102 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:07:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics On the question of what the difference between Relics and Artifacts is, here's a suggestion: Artifacts are creations of the Immortals, with various imbued powers, that are used by Immortals, or placed on the Prime Plane (or elsewhere, I suppose) to aid in the realization of their schemes. The most common way for them to be used is for them to be given to mortals who further the goals of the Immortals, but there are many other ways as well. Being the creations of Immortals, these artifacts have side effects in the hands of mortal creatures. Example: The Fiery Brand is an artifact created by the Entropic Immortal Masauwu. Normally it is used by Masauwu as a weapon against other Immortal foes, but he has been known to leave it on the Prime Plane on occasion, for a suitably corruptable mortal to find and use. Each time the Brand is used, it's influence furthers the cause of Entropy by it's destructive powers. Relics, on the other hand, are items created by and for the use of mortals. They tend to be very powerful, and usually come to be associated with a cause or ideology, and thus gain legendary reputations, not unlike the reputations gained by many artifacts. They do not have the side effects associated with Immortal artifacts, but they are not as indestructable, either. Example: The Great Holy Mace Icon, a mace +2, was created by clerics of the Thonian High Church, back in the early days of Blackmoor. It was used in many battles against orcs by champions of the church, and it's reputation among their kind causes them to face morale checks within 50 feet of the weapon (I don't recall if that's it exactly, but I think that's right). Additionally, the mace bestows a +4 and +2 to the strength and intelligence of the bearer, respectively. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:39:15 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] New Almanac Format A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? Just to know... thanx DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:38:33 +0200 (MSZ) From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format Hi! > A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac > to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? > Just to know... thanx I´d prefer AD&D-statistics, as I have been playing AD&D in Mystara for quite soem time now. But I´m used to converting D&D stats, so I don´t really care. Peter Balazs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:14:20 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format DM wrote: > > A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac > to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? > Just to know... thanx > > DM I like the ad&d rules. I combine spelljammer with mystara. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:20:49 PDT From: "Luca Luca Toni" Subject: [Mystara] Priest Spell Can an Ixion Priest accept a blessing by another immortal ( or by a priest of another religion)? - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 12:48:40 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics IMO this is the difference between artifact and relics: Artifacts are powerful items created by Immortals: 1) for their personal use, 2) to help their followers to further their goals 3) to test likely candidates for Immortality (e.g. the Shadow Belt of Orcus described in M4) Relics IMO are object owned by an Immortal during is mortal life. For example the Sword of Halav could be: 1) a normal sword which, being wield by Halav against the Gnoll King, has became sacred. 2) a magic sword 3) an artifact given to Halav by his sponsor. Sometimes Immortals replace an useless relic (such as a normal sword) with an exact copy with magic powers (such as a powerful magic sword) to show their might to their followers. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:53:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics In a message dated 97-06-22 23:52:04 EDT, you write: << Greetings! Me again. Here's a magical item I created for my campaign. It's not an artifact, but it would be of some worth to a priest of Ordana (or any one else). Rick >> Cool item, Rick. I think there should be more than one, though... perhaps one per Great Druid (IMC, Priests of Ordana form one of the Druidic Priesthoods)? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:58:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics In a message dated 97-06-23 07:35:33 EDT, you write: << On the question of what the difference between Relics and Artifacts is, here's a suggestion: Cthulhudrew >> Soundsgreat, Drew. However, perhaps some Relics can achieve Artifact status as well; for example, should the Evil High Priest Mung the Magnificent wield the Relic Bonebreaker (an Unholy Mace of Slaying), and later achieve Immortality, he might well recreate Bonebreaker as an Artifact, making it both an Atifact and Relic. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:01:56 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksej Andrievskij Subject: Re: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > The only advantage that a Mage would get would be an increased choice > of spells -- presumably only a Merchant Prince can learn and cast Merchant > Prince spells. But I would agree that the loss of 8th and 9th level spells > does not compensate for this minor advantage. > > The way I would handle the Merchant Prince class is to make it available > only to non-Mages. Clerics would still be able to learn 7th level spells, so > they would work well as Merchant Princes. Mages who meet the requirements > of the Merchant Prince class and are trained for it acquire the title of > Merchant Prince but remain pure Mages -- although they now have access > to Merchant Prince spells. The Merchant Prince spells are not so powerful > that such characters would have an overwhelming advantage. > > As for Elves, that would depend on whether you are allowing them the option > of advancing past 10th level as Mages. If so, then treat Elves as Mages for > this purpose. However, if they are normally prohibited from gaining access > to spells above level 5, then it would make sense to allow them to become > Merchant Princes -- at very high levels, they would have access to spells of > up to level 7 from both the Mage and Merchant Prince lists. The XP penalty > is fair compensation for the increase in spell power. > I don't have the Minrothad Gaz, so I may be way off the mark here, but why don't you handle the Merchant Prince like the Merchant class from Darokin Gaz? That is, it's a separate class (making a character multi-classed) that can be taken with any other class. The Merchant has his own spell progression AND his own spells, which are separate from the spells (if any) of his other class. There. Nice and easy. Aleksei ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:45:10 -0300 From: Victor Caminha Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format At 09:39 23/06/97 +0200, you wrote: > A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac >to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? > Just to know... thanx > >DM OD&D ;))))))) []s Victor Caminha "Receive the bounty of your hero's deed Tainting thy life by the gift of the dead Eternally running from a priestly bead Unable to bear the Orb in your head You'll walk in the darkness so alluring Without Hope to cleanse your sin Away from the joy of the living Forever to serve your Twin" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:12:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics Diego Calugi pontificated: > > Relics IMO are object owned by an Immortal during is mortal life. For > example the Sword of Halav could be: > 1) a normal sword which, being wield by Halav against the Gnoll King, > has became sacred. > 2) a magic sword > 3) an artifact given to Halav by his sponsor. > Another possibility, a normal item that have magic-like power because people believe in it. For example, the sword might give a moral boost and combat bonus to all the followers of Halav, because they belive they are stronger in the presence of the sword, and gnolls suffer penaties because they still have some legends of how the sword decimated their army. But the effect is not magical and can't be dispelled. However, the bonus would be quickly lost if people start lossing faith in it, such as when the Halav's follows suffer heavy combat lost and in danger of losing the battle (in game term, probably when they fail their first moral check). Also, a relic could be a normal item, but gained magical power becaused it has been placed in a place of great power (such as an alter of a temple) and/or been worshipped by many people over a long period of time. Relics could also be body parts of an holy person. Such as skull, teeth, hair, etc. In which case, they are more likely to be normal than magical. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:09:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] re: new almanac format Form: Memo Text: (18 lines follow) Let's return Mystara to it's roots - OD&D. I can't realistically even suspect that Mystara is going to get revived any time soon, so until then, let's put stuff together with the same stats as the majority of the material, so that folks just picking it up will fit in easier. Besides, to me the simplicity of the D&D systems, as presented in the Rules Cyclopedia (minus the Mystic - I never did like the monk anyway) is the best system that TSR has put out. LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 webpage: members.aol.com/b1bard/ Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:32:52 -0400 (EDT) From: RLaRue@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format Greetings! >>A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? Just to know... thanx DM << I would prefer AD&D 2nd Ed, but OD&D is not so different as to be useless to me. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 20:11:45 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] New Almanac Format OD&D Please. Trimus D'Alberon - ---------- From: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com on behalf of DM Sent: 23 June 1997 08:39 To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Subject: [Mystara] New Almanac Format A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? Just to know... thanx DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:07:16 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format > A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac > to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? > Just to know... thanx Well, why not both? This is a net.book, after all, where things like page count and cost are not a factor. Simply put both sets of stats in. Or, if this sounds cumbersome, two versions could be made, one with each. This kind of stuff is cake with a word processor. And, if it sounds like too much work, perhaps someone could take charge of converting one set of stats into the other system. If this is not going to happen, I think OD&D is the way to go. It is generally far easier to convert from OD&D to AD&D than vice versa. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:38:46 +0800 (WST) From: Jason MURPHY Subject: RE: [Mystara] New Almanac Format > > A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac > to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? > Just to know... thanx > > DM > > OD&D for sure. The mystara format on AD&D was only an after thought by TSR, so i think production of supplements using the OD&D format is more appropriate. Jason Student extraordinaire.... well not for long hopefully. jmurphy@mitswa.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:48:41 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format > > A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac > to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? > Just to know... thanx > > DM > > I prefer the OD&D version... Mystara was writed for OD&D - -- Sebastian Quiles ================ Universidad de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:10:42 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Merchant Prince Issue On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 Aleksej Andrievskij wrote: >I don't have the Minrothad Gaz, so I may be way off the mark here, but why >don't you handle the Merchant Prince like the Merchant class from Darokin >Gaz? That is, it's a separate class (making a character multi-classed) >that can be taken with any other class. The Merchant has his own spell >progression AND his own spells, which are separate from the spells (if >any) of his other class. There. Nice and easy. That's how I always assumed it to be. The way I see it, it was a class designed to be "built on" to other classes, to help cultivate the heroic merchant-prince image in the game. Since it is primarily for already experienced characters, it wouldn't make sense for it to be a fully- fledged character class of its own. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:05:09 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 DM wrote: > A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac >to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? > Just to know... thanx OD&D. I don't mind AD&D but the way I see it, most AD&D players and/or DMs will already be used to the conversion from D&D to AD&D. On the other hand, most D&D players won't be - for example I play D&D but know the rules (roughly) for AD&D, and I find the conversion from D&D to AD&D easy, whereas back again (eg PWA3 and JA) is much harder for me, to the point of great annoyance. Besides that, it makes sense to keep the stats in line with the vast majority of source material, ie D&D. This helps for continuity and for comparison. I find myself wondering what D&D level Commander Broderick is/was, and it constantly bugs me when I see that level 36th magic-users have been reduced to 20th level, except Jaggar, who was 30th but is now 24th...??? So definitely D&D. If there are a lot of opinions like mine on either side I would say a compromise could be reached easily by simply including BOTH sets of statistics. They don't take up much space anyway, and some are common to both systems. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:18:42 -0700 From: Martin Johansen Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format DM wrote: > Mystara Almanac to be issued using AD&D or OD&D > Just to know... thanx I would prefer AD&D, but OD&D is easily converted, so....... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:17:39 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics I have developed some relics for the Immortals Halav, Petra and Zirchev using the "Song of King Halav" as source of info. If someone is interested I can post them on the mailing list. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:42:30 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format >> A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac >> to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? >> Just to know... thanx > Well, why not both? This is a net.book, after all, where things > like page count and cost are not a factor. Simply put both sets of > stats in. Or, if this sounds cumbersome, two versions could be > made, one with each. This kind of stuff is cake with a word > processor. And, if it sounds like too much work, perhaps someone > could take charge of converting one set of stats into the other > system. i agree with leroy both sets of stats would solve all the problems if it couldnt be done for some reason id choose the AD&D stats - --- -- --Crip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:36:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "David 'Azure' Leland" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Another possibility, a normal item that have magic-like power because > people believe in it. For example, the sword might give a moral boost > and combat bonus to all the followers of Halav, because they belive > they are stronger in the presence of the sword, and gnolls suffer > penaties because they still have some legends of how the sword decimated > their army. But the effect is not magical and can't be dispelled. > However, the bonus would be quickly lost if people start lossing faith > in it, such as when the Halav's follows suffer heavy combat lost and > in danger of losing the battle (in game term, probably when they fail > their first moral check). Also, a relic could be a normal item, but > gained magical power becaused it has been placed in a place of great > power (such as an alter of a temple) and/or been worshipped by many > people over a long period of time. Relics could also be body parts > of an holy person. Such as skull, teeth, hair, etc. In which case, > they are more likely to be normal than magical. I like these ideas a great deal. It offers interesting opportunities for adventure, for example, the PCs discover that a great relic which is largely responsible for the success of an enemy nation/group/etc. against their own is not truly magical. This is discovered via a combination of clues, such as immunity to dispel magic, nondectability by detect magic, legends. Their daunting task is to undermine the faith the enemy has in the relic, and to convince their own side that the relic is not truly magical, something particularly difficult when the relic is in the hands of the enemy! Only in this way can they change the odds and save their people. Or, on the flip side, the PCs discover that one of thier own culture's relics is not truly magical, and that enemies are attempting to subvert faith in it, such that they must do what they can (including lie?) to preserve that faith so that the relic crucial to survival/success remains effective. / ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ \ : David "Azure" Leland ~|~ dleland@cogsci.ucsd.edu : | UCSD Cognitive Science ~|~ Phone/Fax: (619) 642-6709 | : Graduate Research Fellow ~|~ http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dleland : \ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ / ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:20:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics Please do! I just started an early expert level campaign in Karameikos and the churches are playing an important role. Something like this would be and ideal adventure springboard for me. Thanx! ray On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > I have developed some relics for the Immortals Halav, Petra and Zirchev > using the "Song of King Halav" as source of info. If someone is > interested I can post them on the mailing list. > -Diego > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:39:10 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics > Another possibility, a normal item that have magic-like power because > people believe in it. IMC we have somethin called heart(for lack and a better term). If a weapon or item has been on a many quests ie. normal sword that killed many orcs for years or a mace that helped a cleric fend off undead for a culture would have 'heart' and if it was to be enchanted it would gain a magic pluse to undead or orcs. We had a great hero that was strong and always tried to strike and cut of limbs and and heads of his victims. The sword was just enchanted to be magical so he could attack creatures that could only be attacked be magic. the sword gained the power of vorpal wich he later found out durning a battle. I also give the character a pluse if is using a relic of his immortal or someone important to him. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:09:47 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format At 16:32 23-06-97 -0400, you wrote: >Greetings! > >>>A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara Almanac >to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? Just to know... thanx > >DM << > >I would prefer AD&D 2nd Ed, but OD&D is not so different as to be useless to >me. > >Rick What about both? Or would that take too much time/space? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:39:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Treman1997@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics <> yes, I would be interested. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:50:30 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Those Pesky Messages & My Account Well, after bashing heads with the people at my ISP I hope to fix the problem of people getting error messages about my account when they post to the list. If luck is with me (and it usually ain't) it should be resolved tomorrow. Thanks for your patience. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:02:04 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Relics At 13:17 23-06-97 +0200, you wrote: >I have developed some relics for the Immortals Halav, Petra and Zirchev >using the "Song of King Halav" as source of info. If someone is >interested I can post them on the mailing list. >-Diego Sure, post 'em! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:09:03 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: [Mystara] Relics of Halav, Petra and Zirchev (long) IMC I have developed some relics for the Immortals Halav, Petra and Zirchev using "The Song of King Halav" as source of informations. The song states that the Immortals taught them how to defeat the beast-men. To do this, they gave them 3 artifacts: a sword (Halav), a long bow (Petra) and a spear (Zirchev). THE SWORD OF KING HALAV: It looks like a common bronze sword with a red handle, but it is a sword - -3, +10 against humanoids. Though it is -3 to hit against normal foes, it is not cursed: it is made of bronze and it is not well forged and so it is really difficult to handle. However against humanoids it becomes a powerful sword +10! Special powers: - - Victory: as a Rod of Victory - - Rulership: as a Rod of Ruling - - Weapon damage bonus against gnolls: it triplicates the damage done to gnolls - - Knowledge of weaponsmithing: the owner of the sword can forge any bronze item Penalties: - - Body part change: The user's hair becomes slowly red. - - The user must always fight with this sword, even if the enemy isn't an humanoid. - - If the user is fighting with a gnoll, he can't flee. Location: It is buried in the Tomb of King Halav, which can be found somewhere in the catacombs of Lavv, under Kelvin. Sergyev, the Patriarch of the Cult of Halav, is searching for the Tomb of King Halav, looking for his Sword. For this reason he might be interested in adventurers willing to explore the depths under Kelvin. THE ARMOUR OF KING HALAV Originally it was a common bronze armour, forged by Halav himself. When he became an Immortal, he made of it a lesser artifact. Special powers: - - Armor Class bonus +5 - - Dodge normal missiles - - Protection from some creatures (5HD) Penalties: - - Obsession: The user's mind becomes fixed upon religion Location: Sergyev has recovered the Armour of King Halav in 987 AC, when he was a devout member of the Curch of Traldara. Wearing the artifact, he activated the penalty and became obsessed by King Halav and Duke Stefan. For this reason he left the Church of Traldara to create the Cult of King Halav. Sergyev is very jealous of the Armour of King Halav and he keeps it savely hidden in his quartiers. He is obsessed by the idea that someone is trying to steal his own relic. THE LONG BOW OF PETRA Petra was given this artifact by the Immortals to learn the art of the bow, the craft of medicine, the use of the potter's wheel and so on. The Long Bow of Petra looks like an old bow made of wood and it hasn't got any hit bonuses. The Immortals wanted Petra to be a symbol of peace and they wanted her to use the bow for hunting and not for killing foes: for this reason they didn't create the artifact with hit bonuses, so that the hunter was not advantaged on the prey. Special powers: - - Weapon damage bonus: it triplicates the damage, so that the prey might die without suffer from wounds. - - Knowledge of the art of bow, the craft of medicine, the use of the potter's wheel, the spinning of flax and the use of the loom. - - Repair normal object Penalties: - - If it is used more then four times a day (enough to get food), the arrows hit the user and do the biggest damage possible (with the weapon damage bonus). Location: The Long Bow of Petra belongs to the Church of Traldara. It was not built as a weapon and for this reason it is now used by the church as a symbol of peace. THE HOLY SYMBOL OF PETRA This is a normal holy symbol made of wood, used by Petra during her mortal life. It is located in a forgotten church, which was destroyed long ago by goblins, somewhere east of Krakatos (the city ruled by Petra in her mortal life). The Church of Traldara would pay a lot of money for it. THE ROBE OF PETRA It is an elegant robe made of silk. It is red and yellow (a picture can be found on page 6 of K:KoA) and she used to wear it in the throne room of Krakatos. It was found in a locked chest in the ruins of Krakatos in 1010 AC, during the construction of the Karameikan School of Magecraft. Now it belongs to the Church of Traldara. THE SPEAR OF ZIRCHEV This is a two handed spear, made of wood and bronze. It looks quite common. It is a spear +5. Special powers: - - Hide in shadow - - Move silently - - Hear noise - - Set normal trap - - Control animals Penalties: - - Behavior change: the user becomes unsociable, wild, with rough manners. He often spends many days alone in the woods, he starts talking with animals and loosing friends. - - Body part change: the user gets more and more similar to animals. Hair grows on his body, his teeth become sharper and so on. Location: Now the Spear of Zirchev belongs to the tresure of the adult green dragon who lives in the Dymrak Forest. Zirchev himself gave the spear as a gift to the dragon's mother, when she saved his life. THE ELM OF ZIRCHEV It a bronze elm which allows the user to speak with animals. It was found by the goblins "Wolf's Skull" (B10) in an old cave, where Zirchev used to spend his night. Their leader discovered his powers only years after. SHIELD OF KING HALAV I've heard that this relic is described in an adventure. Can someone give me some details? That's all, folks! Sorry for my english. Suggestions are really welcomed. Of course everything is *IMC*. The only informations available can be found in Gaz1 and K:KoA. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:48:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystic In a message dated 97-06-23 22:24:49 EDT, you write: << Besides, to me the simplicity of the D&D systems, as presented in the Rules Cyclopedia (minus the Mystic - I never did like the monk anyway) is the best system that TSR has put out. LT Brant D. Guillory >> I always thought that the Mystic was a neat class, when used in a cultural context (i.e., Ochalea, Sind, etc.; the Thothian Mystic never really fit the class IMO). Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 18:32:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > > > A plain question to everyone out there: do you prefer the Mystara > Almanac to be issued using AD&D or OD&D statistics & rules? > Well, why not both? I'm with Leroy and others on this one. I know ICE published all Middle Earth accessories with statistics for both MERP and Role Master. I hoped TSR would do the same with the PWAs, but they did not. If noone wants to take upon themselves the job of coverting, either way, the people working on various parts of the almanac could just post info on the list and we'll work it out together. Also some NPCs in Glantri KoM and Karameikos KoA, the AD&D supplements should be modified. some might have advanced levels after AC1000. Also there are the matters of Jaggers alignment and Kols race. On the Kol matter I think the stats should belisted for kobold but the subtext could say something like: "It has been rumored that Kol is a Kobold, though the truth in this is yet to be learned. On Creatures: Creatures existing on Mystara are: - -All animals of Earth - -All monsters described in the OD&D rulebooks. (Should that include the Balrog from the original D&D rules? - - All monsters from old D&D Moldules and GAz's - - All monsters from PC series and HW products. - - All monsters from AD&D products specifically written for Mystara/Red Steel. I see nothing wrong in introducing new monsters in addition to these. Whether the new monsters are created by people on this list or imported from other sources. (ie. other AD&D books) However if using these monsters you should be aware that you are importing a new monster to Mystara and statistics should be included (AD&D & OD&D) Again. My opinion. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 18:01:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Also some NPCs in Glantri KoM and Karameikos KoA, the AD&D supplements > should be modified. some might have advanced levels after AC1000. > Also there are the matters of Jaggers alignment and Kols race. > On the Kol matter I think the stats should belisted for kobold but the > subtext could say something like: "It has been rumored that Kol is a > Kobold, though the truth in this is yet to be learned. Not to mention that some of their stats are just simply dumb. In G:KoM, it mentions that Herr Rolf von Graustein is a 15th level wizard in ADD terms, and he's 15th level in DD terms in GAZ3. Using the level conversion in the back of the Cyclopedia, that means that he should either be a 13th level wizard in ADD, or else a 21st level wizard in DD terms; he apparently gained 6 levels between AC1000 and AC1013. Dame Genevieve de Sephora went from something like 20 (I think that's what GAZ3 gave her) to level 18 (ADD) in G:KoM- she went from an 20th level wizard to a 30th level wizard in the span of 13 years... hmmm. I don't know if I buy all of those. It's like the designers weren't always sure whether to convert levels according to the guidelines they gave in the Cyclopedia or else to just transfer the levels over, so they made arbitrary and inconsistent decisions. "Let's keep So-and-so as a 15th level fighter, but, umm... let's convert such-and-such accordingly..." Eh, bag 'em. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:46:51 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Administrative Test Move along, move along. Nothing to see here. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:07:33 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Converting AD&D to OD&D Actually, i don't think the conversion is that much difficult. The only thing u should have clear in your mind from the beginning is: do i want to convert stats basing on the levels or basing on the XPs? Personally i use the Xps whenever it's possible, but since i've not AD&D DM's Guide, then most of the times i stick to levels in general. However, looking at the XP progressing tables of AD&D and OD&D classes, i noticed that almost every class common to both systems is quite the same up to 12th level (talking about Xps, spells and skills in general). From 12th level and up the things change drastically. So, if u want to assume that OD&D max level is 36th (which in fact is!) and AD&D maximum is 20th (which is arbitrary for most DM, according to new supplements detailing wizards that go beyond 20th level... munch*** to me), then this is the rule: to find out the OD&D level of an AD&D character above 12th level, simply consider each level after 12th as corrisponding to 3 levels, and choose one of the three in the range. EX: 13th level AD&D warrior would be a 13th, 14th, OR 15th level OD&D fighter. 17th AD&D wizard would be a 25th, 26th or 27th level OD&D magic user. The reverse applies for converting oD&D to AD&D. As for the Characteristic points above 18, I simply consider AD&D 18/** as OD&D 19, AD&D 19 as OD&D 20, etc. I know this is not the same, but i'm able keep the OD&D game more balanced this way. OK, this is the way I handle the issue. As for the Almanac Format, we'll probably leave some stats vague and we'll see what we can do to accomodate both AD&D and OD&D fans. DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:13:43 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] World Games In the 1014 AC Almanac we wrote that WDL realised that helding the World Games each year requires really a lot of money and so decide to change the schedule. In 1015 AC the games will take place in the Five Shires, the last of the WDL nations. From now on do you prefer the Games to be held: - - each year as now - - once every 2 years - - once every 3 years - - once every 4 years - - once every 5 years - - never - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/ - -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:03:41 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > In the 1014 AC Almanac we wrote that WDL realised that helding the World > Games each year requires really a lot of money and so decide to change the > schedule. > In 1015 AC the games will take place in the Five Shires, the last of the > WDL nations. > >From now on do you prefer the Games to be held: > - each year as now > - once every 2 years > - once every 3 years > - once every 4 years > - once every 5 years > - never Every 4 years ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 02:23:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > >From now on do you prefer the Games to be held: I think at most every 2 years, and every 4 or 5 years would be more reasonable. Perhaps the almanic can mention a bit about the reason for the change, such as difficulty of travel, money, decreasing attendance after the novelity worned out a bit. And although World Games might not be held every year, each nation could have its own Game every year or every other year. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:35:56 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet So, now that the WotC-TSR business has been solved, could someone tell me when the products scheduled for 1997AD will be released? That is, if the WotC plans to go on with RPGs... PS: TO Brant Guillory: i am not able to access your homepage. I tried several times with different entries beside the normal one, but i really cannot. Can u give me some help? DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:54:29 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] MY WEB PAGE OK, sorry for interrupting your meditations, but this is an official announcement: My WebPage is Open and Operative! If u want to visit it, just go to: www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/3090 For any comments, articles and improvement ideas, feel free to lobby me or to sign my guestbook with your comments. Thanks for your time DM ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #102 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #103 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, June 28 1997 Volume 02 : Number 103 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 02:49:36 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games At 22:13 26-06-97 +0200, you wrote: >In the 1014 AC Almanac we wrote that WDL realised that helding the World >Games each year requires really a lot of money and so decide to change the >schedule. >In 1015 AC the games will take place in the Five Shires, the last of the >WDL nations. >>From now on do you prefer the Games to be held: >- each year as now >- once every 2 years >- once every 3 years >- once every 4 years >- once every 5 years >- never Once every 4, just like here. That would sound logical. The countries would have set up several tournaments during the years between the Games to get the best people. Also, what games are played at those games, and what rules do they have (and how to use them with dice, etc...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:26:07 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] To B. Guillory (the others can just trash this e-mail, sorry) I was finally able to access your site. The fault was mine: i typed blbard instead of b1bard. Really sorry for bothering you. Anyway, just 2 things to point out: 1. where's Mystara2.zip? 2. is Mystara7.zip available (the url doesn't seem to exist)? Ok, sorry again for the misunderstanding DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:02:55 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Glantrian OK, since i've noticed that the pace is going too much slow, i'd like to heat a bit the already hot summer of this list by putting forward the issue of the Glantrian language (i'm about to detail it in my homepage and i'd like to know your opinion on the matter). Is Glantrian a proper language, or is it a combination of all the dialects spoken in Glantri? Or can it be a sort of magical code used only by the Glantrian nobility, that's to say by those who have studied at the Great School of Magic or in general by Glantrian Nobles? And in this case, what could its ties with the magic that permeates the universe be?? I'm waiting for answers, else i'll have to make myself one acceptable ;) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:21:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] WotC takes another bite Form: Memo Text: (14 lines follow) Just in case anyone else missed the news - WotC is buying Five Rings publishing. I guess they're just trying to buy out there competition, rather than compete with it. Memo to Steve Jackson: DON'T SELL! LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 webpage: members.aol.com/b1bard/ Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:08:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [Mystara] Comments from WotC. Following is a message posted by Peter Adkison, CEO of WotC, in regarding to the future of TSR's product lines. No mention of Mystara, unfortunatly, but there are a few encourging comments in there. Than again, anyone can make a PR message look good... Reposting without permission, hopefully it wouldn't get me in trouble :) By Peter D. Adkison, Janitor, CEO, and Acting TSR Brand Manager mavra@wizards.com We are into the fourth week of the new marriage of TSR and WotC and I figured you might be interested in my thoughts on what's happening out here in Lake Geneva. Basically things are going very well. The TSR folk are great and we're making a lot of new friendships. I've even had the chance of playing some AD&D while I'm out here; I'm playing my 5th level female bard named Hope in Ted Stark's campaign with Cindi Rice, Stan Brown, Lisa Stevens, Julia Martin, and Cindi's and Julia's husbands. So far no one in the party has tried to backstab me so I guess that's a good sign! This week we finalized the schedule for the rest of 1997 and we're cutting purchase orders for new products and some backlist products. Everyone's excited to have the presses rolling again! In fact, when the first shipment comes to the warehouse we thought of running out to the trucks with cookies for the drivers, a film crew, etc., "So, Mr. Truckdriver (or Ms. Truckdriver), how does it feel to be making the first big delivery of TSR products? How was the drive in? Did you have trouble with crowd control along the way?" Yeah, okay, so we're getting a little giddy out here but that pretty much describes the mood right now. Obviously it will take a few weeks to get products printed, assembled, and distributed. The first backlist and new products should start showing up in stores in early August. I think the first new product will be the next issue of Dragon Magazine. BUSINESS STUFF It is no secret that TSR has had severe financial difficulties in recent years. TSR has operated at a loss for almost three years, and even when it was profitable it was only barely so. If your image of TSR is that of a large, wealthy corporation swimming in money, you're in for a surprise. TSR operates on a shoestring budget with employees who barely make a living and for the most part are working on out of date computers, with only nominal funds for marketing and promotions. Our goal, of course, is to turn the business around and make it a profitable enterprise. While we obviously have a duty to our shareholders to make a profit, we also have a similar duty to our customers and to the adventure gaming industry. A financially healthy TSR will have the strength to support gaming through a regular release of quality products, to support organized play programs like the RPGA, to attract new people into gaming through advertising and promotions, and to take risks in launching new lines that may or may not turn out to be long term profitable ventures. On the other hand, an unhealthy TSR causes damage to the entire industry, not just WotC shareholders. During the six months that TSR did not release any products sales went down dramatically not just for TSR, but for everyone who participates in the TSR distribution--distributors, retailers, mail order companies, and so on. This caused retailers to have less cash flow for investments in other game products, possibly hurting other manufacturers as well. So now that we hopefully agree that it's to everyone's best interest to turn TSR around to become a profitable business, we'd like to share with you our plan for doing so. We want you to understand the full picture because we think you deserve to know. You love this company as much as we do, so you are probably very interested in understanding this. Making a business more profitable is fairly simple on paper. You simply need to find ways of increasing sales without increasing expenses by the same amount, or find ways of decreasing expenses without decreasing sales by the amount. We are considering the following initiatives to do this: * Reduce printing costs. We plan to work very hard at reducing printing costs by introducing a competitive bidding process instead of having an exclusive arrangement with a single printer. By doing this we can always be assured of getting the best price possible on a given product. This should decrease expenses with no decrease in sales. * Returns and inventory management. Many have speculated correctly that TSR suffered numerous financial setbacks from sales returns in the book trade. This is true, and these returns cost the company a lot of money, particular if the product returned can't be resold at a later date. We hope to manage TSR's inventory and sales volumes more precisely to reduce the costs associated with sales returns and overstocking of inventory. * Review product formats. TSR has published products in a variety of formats, including paperback books, hardback books, boxed sets, and so on. Some of these products are more profitable than others, and some are barely profitable at all. We will be examining this product mix to make sure that each format stands on its own and is profitable in its own right. The company simply cannot afford to have some products that do not carry their weight. This move may decrease sales because we make some format changes customers don't like as much as the current format, but if we do it right it will decrease expenses even more. For example, we sold a ton of Encyclopedia Magicas but lost money on every copy sold because the cost of goods was so high. That is why we changed formats for spell compendiums. Yes, the customer gets less for the same money, but that's because the previous ones were priced too low. * Review product lines. What was said in the previous paragraph about types of products can also be said about some of TSR's product lines. We cannot have highly profitable lines like Forgotten Realms and AD&D "carrying" poor performing lines. If a product line is not performing we should reduce our investments in that line to nominal levels and redirect that talent to supporting a line that has more promise. In some cases perhaps a line is flailing but needs more investment in it. We will be examining the TSR product lines on a case by case basis, regularly, through customer surveys and reviews of sales data, to try and determine where our best investment opportunities are. All that said, we do have a saying around here: "lines never die, they simply go into hiatus for a while." We will never completely give up on a line. Rather, we hope to do what Disney does with old properties: bring them back every once in a while for a new treatment and revival. * Price increases. We are considering some moderate price increases on a number of products. We understand that this will not be a popular development, but the fact is that most products do not sell in high enough volume to warrant a low price. The roleplaying industry is small, yielding only a few thousand sales of products that often take 1-2 years to develop. Because of this the profitability of the entire industry is dangerously low. The price of roleplaying products simply has to go up if the adventure gaming industry is to remain viable. * Smaller staff. With TSR operating as a product group within WotC there are a number of jobs that can be eliminated. We don't need two legal departments, two accounting departments, and so on. This will lower expenses related to administrative functions mostly, and help somewhat in sales, marketing, and international functions as well. The need for game designers, developers, editors, and graphic designers will remain constant since this type of work is not subject to the same types of economies of scale. In some areas we plan on spending more money, not less. We plan on spending more on market research and marketing. With increased expenditures in market research we hope to make more accurate decisions on what types of products to develop, how much to produce, and how to promote it. With increased expenditures in marketing we plan to invest primarily in organized play activities like the RPGA, conventions, and other support for grass roots play. With marketing and market research these additional expenditures will hopefully pay for themselves with increased sales. TSR PRODUCT LINES Of course everyone wants to know what product lines we plan to support aggressively versus ones we plan to keep low key for possible revivals downstream. Overall we will base these decisions on consumer interest--which is typically expressed in sales. Here's a summary of where we stand on the key lines. AD&D Core, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance: These are great product lines with strong sales. We will certainly continue to invest in these. Planescape, Ravenloft: These are great product lines but with modest sales. We believe they can be managed profitably and we plan to do so. Birthright, Spellfire, Dragon Dice: These lines are built on intriguing concepts, but sales have been weak. We have some ideas that we will be trying during the second half of this year to see what we can do to build up these lines. If those ideas don't work we will let the lines slip into hiaitus for a while and consider relaunches at a later date. Greyhawk: There seems to be a lot of pent up demand for bringing Greyhawk back. We are giving this serious consideration. Alternity: This is an amazing product with great potential. We are delaying the launch til 1998 so that it can be better supported through marketing at the time of launch. As a gamer you may not value marketing, but as a publisher I can tell you that the days of launching a new game and hoping it grows on its own are long gone. If this game is going to have the chance it deserves it's going to have to come out with a well planned launch program. Dragon, Dungeon, Polyhedron: These are excellent publications that, even though they don't really make money, are important products for supporting TSR customers and products. We will continue all these magazines. Novels: The book publishing department at TSR is an excellent, efficient operation that produces some outstanding fiction. We will continue to invest here, and the novel lines will generally overlap with the game lines, with occassional exceptions. Dominia Campaign Set: We of course are seriously considering the possibility of publishing an AD&D campaign setting for Dominia, the universe Magic: The Gathering is set in. Other lines: There are some other TSR properties that are not currently supported but are mentioned frequently in e-mails and such by gamers; Dark Sun is an excellent example. We will be doing some market research to test awareness and interest, and based on those studies and our own thoughts about where we think the exciting prospects are we will consider relaunch options. GROWTH OPPORTUNITIES In addition to making TSR a profitable business once again we hope to grow the TSR business as well. We see the following activities as avenues for directing our growth efforts: * International markets. International sales represent only 10-20% of TSR's worldwide sales. International should be in the 50-60% range. * Invest in new lines. We must continuously make investments in the development of new games and campaign settings. The creation of new properties is the heart and soul of a gaming company and is critical for long term profitability. Our next big push will be the Alternity science fiction roleplaying game. * Electronic media. We must develop a comprehensive strategy for dealing with the internet and PC platforms. TSR has tried doing its own software development, and has done an extensive amount of licensing. We need to explore all options and develop a vision. THE TSR STAFF I consider it one of the greatest privileges of my life to have become associated with the employees of TSR. These are people who have inspired me personally through their integrity and committment to TSR. In spite of the hardships they've seen in the first six months of the year, very, very few of them left the company. They stayed on, steadily tending their watch through the most turbulent times. And after the acquisition, those who could not come to Seattle could have run off immediately looking for another job, but instead, most of them stayed on right up through the relocation to help with Gencon and insuring a smooth transition. In my years of running a gaming company I have seen many heroic efforts where people put duty above all personal considerations, and this particular case ranks among the greatest of those tales. TARGET AUDIANCE TSR made a strategic decision a number of years ago to target a younger audiance in its marketing decisions and product content. We are reversing that course. We will market our games as serious products for a mature audiance. We do this not because we don't want young people to buy our games, but because we believe that the young people who buy these games are generally very mature for their age and take gaming as seriously as adults. This doesn't mean we're going to go off the deep end and turn the line into a bunch of R rated products; it simply means that we will assume that our audiance is generally mature enough to handle serious topics and perhaps the occassional demon or something. :-) 1997 RELEASE SCHEDULE Here are the game releases planned for the rest of this year from TSR (thought you might be curious). Listed on each is the month they "ship;" you'll probably see them in the stores the month after. AD&D, Games: Tale of the Comet (Jul), Sea Devils Monstrous Arcana (Jul), Evil Tide Monstrous Arcana (Aug), Of Ships & The Sea (Sep), Wizard Spell Compendium II (Sep), Night of the Shark Monstrous Arcana (Oct), and Sea of Blood (Dec). Novels: Tale of the Comet Novel (Jul). Birthright: King of Giantdowns (Jul), Book of Priestcraft (Oct), Tribes/Heartless Wastes Sourcebook (Dec). Forgotten Realms: Powers & Pantheons (Jul), Lands of Intrigue Campaign Set (Aug), Castle Spulzeer (Sep), Four from Cormyr (Oct), Prayers from the Faithful (Nov). Novels: Harpers #15 Finder's Bane (Jul), Shores of Dusk (Aug), Passage to Dawn (Aug, reprint), Council of Blades, Nobles #5 (Sep), The Simbul's Gift, Nobles #6 (Oct), Elminster in Myth Drannor (Nov), Realms of the Arcane (Nov), Tymora's Luck (Dec). Planescape: Faces of Evil: Fiends (Aug), The Great Modron March (Sep), Dead Gods (Oct), Planar Powers, The Blood War Trilogy #3 (Jul), Pages of Pain (Dec). Ravenloft: Domains of Dread (Jul), Forgotten Terror (Sep), Ghosts (Nov). Novels: Lord of the Necropolis (Oct). Dragonlance: Heroes of Defiance (Jul), Fate Cards Deck (Aug), Last Tower Adventure (Oct), Heroes of Sorcery (Nov). Novels: Lord Soth (Jul), The Day of the Tempest (Aug), Vinas Solamnus King (Aug), The Wayward Knights (Sep), Fistandantilus Reborn (Oct), Tales of Uncle Trap-Springer (Nov), Dragons of Chaos (Dec). Dragon Dice: Manual (Aug), Kicker #6 (Sep), Kicker #7 (Dec). Note that these releases are tentative. Marvel Super Dice: Starter Set (Oct). Spellfire: Dungeon! Booster #12 (Aug). Periodicals: Dragon every month, Dungeon every other month, Polyhedron every other month opposite Dungeon starting in October. BUILDING BRIDGES One of the things I've been working on personally is building bridges and mending fences, that is, trying to improve relationships with some of the people who used to work here but don't anymore. I've had conversations with Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Zeb Cook, Margaret Weis, Tracy Hickman, and so on. It is too early to tell where these discussions will lead, but I'm cautiously optimistic that we will be able to work with some of these people once again. We're also doing some things to improve relations with the art community. There is a storage area here with a bunch of original art, which we're returning to the artists to did the paintings. We will also grant back certain rights to artists, like the rights to do prints and retrospective works. Overall everyone has been friendly and excited about the new marriage between TSR and WotC and are hopeful for the future. I for one certainly plan to have a helluva lot of fun in the coming years! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:16:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: re: [Mystara] for everybody Form: Reply Text: (22 lines follow) to let everyone know: the address for my webpage is : MEMBER.AOL.COM/B1BARD/ with a "one" not an "el" Also, netMAG #2 was compiled by Amaldis@aol.com. I didn't do it, so I don't feel right including it in my archives. Also, this email address will be going away within a week. I'll try to keep up with the mail from my AOL address, but I'm moving this summer and it'll be touch-&-go for a little while. BTW - can anyone give me the address I need to email about a JUNO account? Thanks! LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 webpage: members.aol.com/b1bard/ Original text: (12 lines follow) From DALMONTE @ SMTP (DM) {dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it}, on 6/27/97 10:26: I was finally able to access your site. The fault was mine: i typed blbard instead of b1bard. Really sorry for bothering you. Anyway, just 2 things to point out: 1. where's Mystara2.zip? 2. is Mystara7.zip available (the url doesn't seem to exist)? Ok, sorry again for the misunderstanding DM Use Proportional Font: true Previous From: DALMONTE @ SMTP (DM) {dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it} Previous To: MYSTARA- @ SMTP {mystara-l@lists.io.com} Original to: MYSTARA- @ SMTP {mystara-l@lists.io.com} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:22:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > So, now that the WotC-TSR business has been solved, could someone tell me > when the products scheduled for 1997AD will be released? That is, if the > WotC plans to go on with RPGs... I'm pretty sure they're going ahead as planned- albeit a bit later than originally expected. I know Bruce has been very busy lately working (hence why he hasn't popped up around here lately). Last I heard, the latest Dragon had just gone to the printers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:47:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Comments on the WotC post That rocks! I'm glad to see that some serious thought has been put into revamping the TSR line, especially the part about targeting marketing towards mature gamers rather than newbies. I really think this was one of the areas that screwed over TSR in the recent past, trying to reach the "younger" audience. Some of the bits in the Code of Ethics were ludicrous, IMO. I'm hoping this will actually be a very good move for TSR. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:35:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > Is Glantrian a proper language, or is it a combination of all the dialects > spoken in Glantri? Or can it be a sort of magical code used only by the > Glantrian nobility, that's to say by those who have studied at the Great > School of Magic or in general by Glantrian Nobles? And in this case, what > could its ties with the magic that permeates the universe be?? IMO, there isn't just one Glantrian language, but a number of languages, and a number of dialects of those languages. There is Alphatian (and a Flaemish dialect), Traladaran, Thyatian (and a Hattian dialect), French, and English (well, Scottish, really). There are a number of Baronial dialects that are combinations of these languages, especially in the more isolated Baronies (such as the Viscounty of Blofeld, for one). In game terms, however, this doesn't work out quite so well. With so many languages, communication is difficult. So, it may be just as well to designate a more official language. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:01:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Another comment on the WotC post Say, rereading the post I noted something else. It is mentioned that international sales make up only 10-20% of TSR's worldwide sales, and that WotC want to push for a 50-60% demographic in that area. This could be the chance we're looking for to get Mystara revived. As I think has been shown somewhat on this list (and, admittedly, we're probably a very small sample of Mystara fans, not to mention *D&D fans, overall), it seems that Mystara has a large following overseas. If WotC/TSR is able to see this, maybe Mystara will have a good shot at being revived. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:22:14 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games At 02.49 27/06/97 +0200, you wrote: >Once every 4, just like here. That would sound logical. Funny! We thought that 4 was too much like the real world Games. >The countries would >have set up several tournaments during the years between the Games to get >the best people. Good idea. > >Also, what games are played at those games, and what rules do they have >(and how to use them with dice, etc...) Well, I had in mind of writing something about the Games last year but then I had no time. Hope I'll do something for this almanac, someone is willing to help? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:17:27 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games At 02.23 27/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: >> >> >From now on do you prefer the Games to be held: > >I think at most every 2 years, and every 4 or 5 years would >be more reasonable. Perhaps the almanic can mention a bit >about the reason for the change, such as difficulty of travel, >money, decreasing attendance after the novelity worned out a >bit. And although World Games might not be held every year, >each nation could have its own Game every year or every other >year. Don't worry. Reasons for change will be certainly mentioned. The next almanac is going to be really full of info. (I hope :) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:46:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Ben3181@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Tale of the Comet In a message dated 97-06-27 23:42:22 EDT, you write: << So, now that the WotC-TSR business has been solved, could someone tell me when the products scheduled for 1997AD will be released? That is, if the WotC plans to go on with RPGs... >> The products will be appearing as soon as July. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:49:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Ben3181@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another comment on the WotC post In a message dated 97-06-27 23:44:07 EDT, you write: << This could be the chance we're looking for to get Mystara revived. As I think has been shown somewhat on this list (and, admittedly, we're probably a very small sample of Mystara fans, not to mention *D&D fans, overall), it seems that Mystara has a large following overseas. If WotC/TSR is able to see this, maybe Mystara will have a good shot at being revived. :) >> Unfortunetly, it does not look like this will happen. I read through the press release too, and it did not mention Mystara at all. The good news is that instead of restarting the line again, they would bring out something new every few years. As to what this "something would be" I don't know. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:10:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Treman1997@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games In a message dated 97-06-28 00:48:13 EDT, you write: << >Once every 4, just like here. That would sound logical. Funny! We thought that 4 was too much like the real world Games. >> But isn't Mystara alot like Earth in many ways anyway - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:07:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Treman1997@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Netmag/Almanac questions I'm wondering if anyone knows how to open the net mags for Mystara. They are *.sit files and I cannot open them. Also, what ALmanac are you refering to? I was under the impression that TSR is not printing new Almanacs[ as of Joshuans(1013)]. Can someone please let me in on this puzzle? And, if there is an almanac, I'd be interested in having it. Thank you - -Ambyrus Vylestraan, Flaemish Mage Extrordinaire ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:48:55 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >From now on do you prefer the Games to be held: > - once every 4 years > This seems a good choice - not too often, but often enough. And after all, Mystara *is* modelled after real world... ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:29:09 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another comment on the WotC post Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > Say, rereading the post I noted something else. It is mentioned that > international sales make up only 10-20% of TSR's worldwide sales, and > that WotC want to push for a 50-60% demographic in that area. > > This could be the chance we're looking for to get Mystara revived. As I > think has been shown somewhat on this list (and, admittedly, we're > probably a very small sample of Mystara fans, not to mention *D&D fans, > overall), it seems that Mystara has a large following overseas. If > WotC/TSR is able to see this, maybe Mystara will have a good shot at > being revived. :) Good idea! Here in Italy Mystara is the most famous world because it is the only one which has been traslated in italian. Every Italian player has been in Threshold at least once :). - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:36:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Netmag/Almanac questions On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 Treman1997@aol.com wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone knows how to open the net mags for Mystara. > They are *.sit files and I cannot open them. > Also, what ALmanac are you refering to? I was under the impression that > TSR is not printing new Almanacs[ as of Joshuans(1013)]. Can someone please > let me in on this puzzle? And, if there is an almanac, I'd be interested in > having it. Thank you > -Ambyrus Vylestraan, Flaemish Mage Extrordinaire There is a 1014 Almanac available on Web. It was made by Michael Roy and other people on this list. (sorry about not mentioning all your names) Also people out there are working on one for 1015 whihc will be released this year(from what I hear) The Spirit is alive. This is the best illustration that mystara is not dead yet. I have the PWA1014 v 1.2 If you want it IO can send it to you. It is also available on WWW, but I cant remember any URL's for that right now. Any questions on the almanacs is probably better answered by Fabrizio or others on the list actually working on the product. I'm more of a hangaround really :) Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:46:38 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, DM wrote: > OK, since i've noticed that the pace is going too much slow, i'd like to > heat a bit the already hot summer of this list by putting forward the issue > of the Glantrian language (i'm about to detail it in my homepage and i'd > like to know your opinion on the matter). > Is Glantrian a proper language, or is it a combination of all the dialects > spoken in Glantri? Or can it be a sort of magical code used only by the > Glantrian nobility, that's to say by those who have studied at the Great > School of Magic or in general by Glantrian Nobles? And in this case, what > could its ties with the magic that permeates the universe be?? > According to the Almanacs, the common language of Glantri is Thyatian. There are also some regional languages, spoken in different principalities. Here they are, IIRC: New Averoigne: Averoignian Aalban: Thyatian, Alphatian Linden: Flaemish Klantyre: can't remember the exact name Boldavia: Traladaran Caurenze: Thyatian Blackhill: Alphatian Krondahar: Ethengarian Belcadiz & Erewan: Elvish ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:01:15 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [Mystara] TSR's Standard of Conduct The nes TSR's standard of conduct includes the following: In addition to adhering to these Content Standards, TSR requests that all TSR products add the following statement to their legal page. "This product is a work of fiction; any similarities to actual people, organizations, places, or events is purely coincidental." I wonder how they will explain things in Mystara as "purely coincidental" ;) ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:54:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > Not to mention that some of their stats are just simply dumb. In G:KoM, > it mentions that Herr Rolf von Graustein is a 15th level wizard in ADD > terms, and he's 15th level in DD terms in GAZ3. Using the level > conversion in the back of the Cyclopedia, that means that he should > either be a 13th level wizard in ADD, or else a 21st level wizard in DD > terms; he apparently gained 6 levels between AC1000 and AC1013. Dame > Genevieve de Sephora went from something like 20 (I think that's what > GAZ3 gave her) to level 18 (ADD) in G:KoM- she went from an 20th level > wizard to a 30th level wizard in the span of 13 years... hmmm. I don't > know if I buy all of those. Maybe we could make an errata on the statistics of these people. would that violate the copyright? How do we determine reasonable level increase during Wrath? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:51:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > According to the Almanacs, the common language of Glantri is Thyatian. > There are also some regional languages, spoken in different > principalities. Here they are, IIRC: > New Averoigne: Averoignian > Aalban: Thyatian, Alphatian > Linden: Flaemish > Klantyre: can't remember the exact name Klantrian? > Boldavia: Traladaran > Caurenze: Thyatian > Blackhill: Alphatian > Krondahar: Ethengarian > Belcadiz & Erewan: Elvish Remember that elvish dialects are quite dissimilar. Even though elves speaking different dialects would probably understand eachother, the dialects should be noted whenever a character tries to learn a language. I agree with you that the standard language in Glantri is thyatian. They might refer to it as Glantrian, and it might be slightly different. Like English and American perhaps? After all Alexander Glantri was Thyatian. It makes sense that people use languages of their own region, but they would need a common language for practical reasons. This would also be the language in which the Glantrian constitution(if any) is written. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:13:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC takes another bite On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, GUILLORY: BRANT wrote: > Form: Memo > Text: (14 lines follow) > Just in case anyone else missed the news - WotC is buying Five Rings > publishing. I guess they're just trying to buy out there competition, > rather than compete with it. > Memo to Steve Jackson: DON'T SELL! Hope you read that Steve :) Whats five rings publishin anyway? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:16:37 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian At 14.46 28/06/97 +0300, you wrote: >According to the Almanacs, the common language of Glantri is Thyatian. But according to a couple of a Gaz and a PC book there exists something known as "Glantrian". Note: I prefer the Almanacs version anyway. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:11:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian In a message dated 97-06-27 23:48:38 EDT, you write: << Is Glantrian a proper language, or is it a combination of all the dialects spoken in Glantri? >> IMC Glantrian is a proper language of it's own, derived from the original Flaemish language of the first settlers and highly modified by two other languages: Thyatian and Daro (Daro is now, after some modification to my original hypothesis, a Hattian derived language). Thus, in RW terms, it could be equated to French (Thytian=Latin, Hatian=German, Original Flaemish="Celtic Equivalent"). There would be specific Cants or special sub-languages used by the various Secret Crafts that would have been influenced by other languages. But IMC, the common Glantrians do not speak Thyatian (Common), they speak Glantrian... Mystaros ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #103 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #104 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, June 30 1997 Volume 02 : Number 104 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:25:30 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Netmag/Almanac questions At 13.36 28/06/97 +0200, you wrote: >I have the PWA1014 v 1.2 >If you want it IO can send it to you. It is also available on WWW, but I >cant remember any URL's for that right now. The URL is ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/ ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:19:53 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Comments on the WotC post On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > That rocks! I'm glad to see that some serious thought has been put into > revamping the TSR line, especially the part about targeting marketing > towards mature gamers rather than newbies. I really think this was one of > the areas that screwed over TSR in the recent past, trying to reach the > "younger" audience. Some of the bits in the Code of Ethics were > ludicrous, IMO. I'm hoping this will actually be a very good move for > TSR. :) I agree. However I hope this mature thingie doesn't and up in making Wotc products like White Wolf ones...OH no, another depressing dark and sinister campaign setting? On the other hand I am positive to getting more Demons and if Wotc products will have more information of settings, campaign feel etc that will be great. Also Im not to sorry about there being no mention of First Quest... Later.. Havard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:10:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Planescape or not. Spoiler!This mail contains info about DArk Knight of Karameikos Dark Knight of Karameikos connects Mystara with Planescape and Blood Wars. In spite of this, it is not a bad novel. However, for those of us who dont use these elements in our campaigns I have some ideas. I think this would be useful, especially since DArk Knight is being made part of the "official" timeline in the almanacs. IMC the BloodWars, Tanar'ri and Bateezu(not in this dimension anyway) dont exist. However they can be replaced to fit with the Mystara Multiverse. Tanar'ri: Replace these with the Demons(fiends) of Orcus. Bateezu: Fiends of Demogorgon. Bloodwars: On the borders of the planes of the Demons rulers, large armies clash. Even though Orcus and Demogorgon are allies, they are competitors and fight over planes sending their minions to battle. This is a legal way of contesting for planes. The constant war does not seem to be making much progress though. Note on Demons: I usually refer to Fiends as Demons. I like the later term better and it sounds better in my own language(norwegian) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:40:34 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Comments from WotC. At 14.08 27/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >BUSINESS STUFF > >It is no secret that TSR has had severe financial difficulties in recent >years. TSR has operated at a loss for almost three years, and even when >it was profitable it was only barely so. If your image of TSR is that of >a large, wealthy corporation swimming in money, you're in for a surprise. >TSR operates on a shoestring budget with employees who barely make a >living and for the most part are working on out of date computers, with >only nominal funds for marketing and promotions. I can't believe it! TSR, the world leading RPG producer, operated at a loss for almost three years. I always imagined TSR as a big company with a lot of money. =8-[ >* Reduce printing costs. We plan to work very hard at reducing >printing costs by introducing a competitive bidding process instead of >having an exclusive arrangement with a single printer. By doing this we >can always be assured of getting the best price possible on a given >product. This should decrease expenses with no decrease in sales. Typical of the worst mass-production system. Never heard of TQM and comakership? (Sorry for going off-topic, don't flame me, please :) >* Review product formats. TSR has published products in a variety >of formats, including paperback books, hardback books, boxed sets, and so >on. Some of these products are more profitable than others, and some are >barely profitable at all. We will be examining this product mix to make >sure that each format stands on its own and is profitable in its own >right. The company simply cannot afford to have some products that do not >carry their weight. This move may decrease sales because we make some >format changes customers don't like as much as the current format, but if >we do it right it will decrease expenses even more. For example, we sold >a ton of Encyclopedia Magicas but lost money on every copy sold because >the cost of goods was so high. That is why we changed formats for spell >compendiums. Yes, the customer gets less for the same money, but that's >because the previous ones were priced too low. Hope that the Gaz and PWA format are profitable ones :-) > >* Review product lines. What was said in the previous paragraph >about types of products can also be said about some of TSR's product >lines. We cannot have highly profitable lines like Forgotten Realms and >AD&D "carrying" poor performing lines. If a product line is not >performing we should reduce our investments in that line to nominal levels >and redirect that talent to supporting a line that has more promise. In >some cases perhaps a line is flailing but needs more investment in it. We >will be examining the TSR product lines on a case by case basis, >regularly, through customer surveys and reviews of sales data, to try and >determine where our best investment opportunities are. > > All that said, we do have a saying around here: "lines never die, >they simply go into hiatus for a while." We will never completely give up >on a line. Rather, we hope to do what Disney does with old properties: >bring them back every once in a while for a new treatment and revival. Don't you think this is the right time to let them know that we love Mystara? > >* Price increases. We are considering some moderate price increases >on a number of products. We understand that this will not be a popular >development, but the fact is that most products do not sell in high enough >volume to warrant a low price. The roleplaying industry is small, >yielding only a few thousand sales of products that often take 1-2 years >to develop. Because of this the profitability of the entire industry is >dangerously low. The price of roleplaying products simply has to go up if >the adventure gaming industry is to remain viable. :-( >THE TSR STAFF > >I consider it one of the greatest privileges of my life to have become >associated with the employees of TSR. These are people who have inspired >me personally through their integrity and committment to TSR. In spite of >the hardships they've seen in the first six months of the year, very, very >few of them left the company. They stayed on, steadily tending their >watch through the most turbulent times. And after the acquisition, those >who could not come to Seattle could have run off immediately looking for >another job, but instead, most of them stayed on right up through the >relocation to help with Gencon and insuring a smooth transition. In my >years of running a gaming company I have seen many heroic efforts where >people put duty above all personal considerations, and this particular >case ranks among the greatest of those tales. My congratulations to TSR staff. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:44:16 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > practical reasons. This would also be the language in which the Glantrian > constitution(if any) is written. > Glantrian constitution, eh? Like "wizards rule and the rest of you get out from underfoot". ;) ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:07:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] WotC takes another bite Haavard Roenne Faanes pontificated: > > Whats five rings publishin anyway? They produce Legends of the Five Rings CCG, and recently acquire the right to produce Rage CCG, based on White Wolf's Werewolf. They are generally regarded as one of the best operated gaming company. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:05:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian To me, Glantrian and some other KW languages such as Darokinian are all just variation of Thyatian. This is just to make the life a bit easier on the PC so they don't have to learn a new language whereever they go. But someone from Glantri can still learn Thyatian, so he can speak like a native Thyatian, without the Glantri accent. John Yu. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:02:48 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] What about Bruce? Hey all. I just realized that we haven't heard from Bruce in a bit. Anyone know if he has stayed on after the move to Seattle or if he's left TSR? Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:59:55 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another comment on the WotC post At 11:49 PM 6/27/97 -0400, Ben3181@aol.com wrote: ><< This could be the chance we're looking for to get Mystara revived. >[...snip...]>> > >Unfortunetly, it does not look like this will happen. I read through the >press release too, and it did not mention Mystara at all. [...] While it didn't specifically mention Mystara, there was a mention of reviving lines which were currently not supported. The example they gave was Dark Sun, but Mystara certainly falls into this category. I think we need to let WotC know how many Mystara fans there are, and how much we'd like to see it supported again. Personally, I don't care whether it comes out as AD&D or OD&D -- I just want to see more stuff! I'd love to see any kind of Gaz'es for some of the undeveloped areas of Mystara! The fact that they want to boost their international sales does make for a good first hand hold -- all of the 'international' people on the list should really make an effort to let them know how much you appreciate Mystara and how you'd like to have more stuff to use in your campaigns. We have a great opportunity here, lets see what we can do with it. :-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 22:37:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > practical reasons. This would also be the language in which the Glantrian > > constitution(if any) is written. > > > Glantrian constitution, eh? Like "wizards rule and the rest of you get out > from underfoot". ;) Yes, but they have written it so that it fills an entire book. :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:17:38 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Bruce? On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > I just realized that we haven't heard from Bruce in a bit. Anyone know > if he has stayed on after the move to Seattle or if he's left TSR? He's still there, just hard at work, and won't be available for a while now. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:29:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Maybe we could make an errata on the statistics of these people. would > that violate the copyright? I think this would be a good idea. After going over the G:KoM stats again the other night, I have come to the conclusion that many of the level changes due to conversion to AD&D were very arbitrary on the part of the designer of that set. > How do we determine reasonable level increase during Wrath? It depends on level of activity, and level of the person before the war. Someone like, say, Jaggar, who had a great deal of involvement in the war would get more points than, say, his friend Herr Rolf, who likely didn't actively participate in the war. And then, Jaggar wouldn't show as great a level increase as say, the Black Eagle (who was terrorizing the Hin), due to his already greater levels. I did a writeup a while back on the Glantrian nobles, where I extrapolated all the experience that they would have gained from ruling their dominions over the course of the Wrath of the Immortals. I'll certainly post it if anyone is interested. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 16:38:11 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > I did a writeup a while back on the Glantrian nobles, where I > extrapolated all the experience that they would have gained from ruling > their dominions over the course of the Wrath of the Immortals. I'll > certainly post it if anyone is interested. I'm really interested! - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 16:38:06 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian DM wrote: > > Is Glantrian a proper language, or is it a combination of all the dialects > spoken in Glantri? Or can it be a sort of magical code used only by the > Glantrian nobility, that's to say by those who have studied at the Great > School of Magic or in general by Glantrian Nobles? And in this case, what > could its ties with the magic that permeates the universe be?? > I'm waiting for answers, else i'll have to make myself one acceptable ;) > > DM I like the idea of the Glantrian being a sort of magical code used by the students of the GSoM (this could be an useful new abbreviation :). Maybe in these years some students have developed an "higher" language: a faster, clearer and more refined way of speaking. IMO, this is not a normal language, it's something more complete: it should involve the movement of the hands, the expression of the face and so on. It is much better than any other known language and it is as complete as ESP. Of course, just a few people are enough intelligent to speak this language. Maybe some of you have read the book "Second Foundation" by Issac Asimov. IMO, the Glantrian looks like the language spoken by the members of the Second Foundation. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:12:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > How do we determine reasonable level increase during Wrath? > > I did a writeup a while back on the Glantrian nobles, where I > extrapolated all the experience that they would have gained from ruling > their dominions over the course of the Wrath of the Immortals. I'll > certainly post it if anyone is interested. I am, send it my way Cthul :) Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:27:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games If the last annual games are to be held in AC 1015, then every five years would be easiest to keep track of. If they want to go to every four years, then they may want to shift gradually -- hold games in 1017, then 1020, then every four years thereafter. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:27:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] TSR's Standard of Conduct In a message dated 97-06-28 08:36:13 EDT, k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi (Aleksei Andrievski) writes: << "This product is a work of fiction; any similarities to actual people, organizations, places, or events is purely coincidental." I wonder how they will explain things in Mystara as "purely coincidental" ;) >> Movies such as "Hot Shots!" and "Naked Gun" have the same disclaimer -- even though both contain obvious parodies of real people. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:28:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Another comment on the WotC post In a message dated 97-06-28 17:37:29 EDT, strawberry@jamm.com (Jenni A. M. Merrifield) writes: << Personally, I don't care whether it comes out as AD&D or OD&D -- I just want to see more stuff! I'd love to see any kind of Gaz'es for some of the undeveloped areas of Mystara! >> Unless they revive OD&D as well as AD&D, I think it would be a mistake to revive Mystara as an OD&D line. Maybe they could bring it back as their first 3d edition world -- especially if 3d edition has enough OD&D-like features to make the combination seem natural. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:27:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian In a message dated 97-06-27 23:48:38 EDT, you write: << Is Glantrian a proper language, or is it a combination of all the dialects spoken in Glantri? Or can it be a sort of magical code used only by the Glantrian nobility, that's to say by those who have studied at the Great School of Magic or in general by Glantrian Nobles? And in this case, what could its ties with the magic that permeates the universe be?? >> Glantri would appear to be a multi-lingual country -- most of the languages of the Known World are spoken somewhere in that country. I would imagine that none of them are spoken in "pure" form -- all borrow extensively in vocabulary from one another. From "official" sources, it would appear that the "Common" tongue of Glantri is a dialect of Thyatian (the language of the nation's founder and hero, Alexander Glantri), while "Glantrian" as such could be that language, the Flaemish dialect of Alphatian (the language of the original inhabitants), or the French-sounding language spoken in New Averoigne (in homage to the greatest Mage in Glantri, Etienne d'Ambreville). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:36:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > I like the idea of the Glantrian being a sort of magical code used by > the students of the GSoM (this could be an useful new abbreviation :). > Maybe in these years some students have developed an "higher" language: > a faster, clearer and more refined way of speaking. IMO, this is not a > normal language, it's something more complete: it should involve the > movement of the hands, the expression of the face and so on. It is much > better than any other known language and it is as complete as ESP. > Of course, just a few people are enough intelligent to speak this > language. I think that is a good idea. However there should be an official language that all glantrians and forreigners can learn. In addition there could be one or several magic cants which work as you describe.. > Maybe some of you have read the book "Second Foundation" by Issac > Asimov. IMO, the Glantrian looks like the language spoken by the members > of the Second Foundation. Ive just read "Foundation" but I will read the rest as soon as I get around to buying them :) Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:42:02 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian At 23.36 29/06/97 +0200, you wrote: >On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > >> I like the idea of the Glantrian being a sort of magical code used by >> the students of the GSoM (this could be an useful new abbreviation :). >> Maybe in these years some students have developed an "higher" language: >> a faster, clearer and more refined way of speaking. IMO, this is not a >> normal language, it's something more complete: it should involve the >> movement of the hands, the expression of the face and so on. It is much >> better than any other known language and it is as complete as ESP. >> Of course, just a few people are enough intelligent to speak this >> language. > >I think that is a good idea. However there should be an official language >that all glantrians and forreigners can learn. >In addition there could be one or several magic cants which work as you >describe.. Last year in a thread about Glantrian someone suggested that only the mages (i.e. former students of the GSoM) know the common language, so that commoners from different principalities are less likely to band together and overthrow the rulers. I think this is a good idea and fits very well with the Glantrian setting. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it Home Page:http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/ - -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 01:00:59 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games On Sun, 29 Jun 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >If the last annual games are to be held in AC 1015, then every five years >would >be easiest to keep track of. If they want to go to every four years, then >they >may want to shift gradually -- hold games in 1017, then 1020, then every four >years thereafter. I agree with the 5 years figure, it is definitely the easiest. But if four years is preferred, I think there should be a 1016 games rather than 1017, thus allowing the games to be held in an "acceptable" pattern from then on. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:17:25 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >...and English (well, Scottish, really).... Just a little note: Scottish (the language, i.e. collection of dialects, as opposed to the accent of English) is usually referred to as Scots. It is pretty much the same as English in a great many words, but there exists in Scots a large number of unique Scottish words too. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:50:20 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >How do we determine reasonable level increase during Wrath? This is a very interesting question I've been wondering about for a while. Exactly how fast, in game time, are characters supposed to advance? Official sources seem to differ wildly on this, alternately suggestion very short and very long times, so what do you all think? With demi-humans it becomes even harder to figure into a game, because the official view seems to be that they advance very slowly compared to humans. This is reflected only minorly in the XP charts, so that elven characters do fall behind their human counterparts in levels, but not really noticeably. It's an interesting question. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:45:02 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> Belcadiz & Erewan: Elvish > >Remember that elvish dialects are quite dissimilar. Even though elves >speaking different dialects would probably understand eachother, the >dialects should be noted whenever a character tries to learn a language. As a little side note, in case anyone disagrees with this, I can tell you from personal experience that, even within a country, there can be wildly different accents, to the point of comprehension problems. One of the reasons that a lot of Scottish people are prejudiced against (Southern) English people is that, while we understand them perfectly, they often have difficulty understanding the more broad Scots accents. And there are some accents pretty close to Orkney, where I hail from, that even I have difficulty working out - Shetland, Western Isles, etc.. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 01:19:08 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format Diego Calugi wrote: > > Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > > I did a writeup a while back on the Glantrian nobles, where I > > extrapolated all the experience that they would have gained from ruling > > their dominions over the course of the Wrath of the Immortals. I'll > > certainly post it if anyone is interested. I'd like a copy. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:40:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > >> Belcadiz & Erewan: Elvish > > > >Remember that elvish dialects are quite dissimilar. Even though elves > >speaking different dialects would probably understand eachother, the > >dialects should be noted whenever a character tries to learn a language. > > As a little side note, in case anyone disagrees with this, I can tell > you from personal experience that, even within a country, there can be > wildly different accents, to the point of comprehension problems. One > of the reasons that a lot of Scottish people are prejudiced against > (Southern) English people is that, while we understand them perfectly, > they often have difficulty understanding the more broad Scots accents. I do disagree, though, and I'll tell you why. While I agree that languages can change greatly even within a short range- as you point out, Thorf- that is going from a human perspective, wherein there are many generations within a (historically speaking) short period of time. The same doesn't hold true for elves, who live up to 8 times as long as humans do. The elvish languages would likely have changed somewhat, to the point where they have distinctions from one another (particularly in areas where the elves are greatly separated from their kin- the Shadowelves come to mind), but they would likely not be so dissimilar as dialects of human languages. An example from a project I'm working on would be that, while Blackmoorian humans would not be able to communicate with humans from say, modern day Thyatis (due to the generations of language dissemination that have gone on over the course of 4000 years), a modern day Alfheim elf would likely be able to communicate with a Blackmoor era elf, if erratically. Something akin to a modern day English speaking person conversing with, say, a middle-English speaking person. Whereas 40+ generations of humans have come and gone in the days since the destruction of Blackmoor, and migrated and interbred, etc., the elvish races have had only upwards of 6+ generations since those days, and have remained in relatively stable groups. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 04:36:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian In a message dated 97-06-30 02:48:44 EDT, you write: << The same doesn't hold true for elves, who live up to 8 times as long as humans do. >> And I, in turn, must disagree with your view. While it is indeed true that the Elves are much more long lived than Humans, and there have been fewer generations since the GRoF (40 for humans/6 for Elves by the "Longest Age" calculation, or more accurately, ~200 for Humans and ~20 for Elves (I use the "Reproductive Generation" calculation; i.e., the average age of highest level of "reproductive utility", which I place at 20 for Humans and 200 for Elves)), IMO Elves are as likely if not moreso than Humans to have a rapid, "personal" evolution to their language. This is my arguement (off the cuff, as it were): First, the Elves of Mystara are *extremely* clan oriented; this is obvious from all evidence in all the Canonical materials; while Elves do have an overall identity, they are more likely to identify with their respective clans than as "Elves", though quite naturally they will identify as "Elves" versus other races... Second, the Elves of Mystara have undergone *intensive cultural evolution* since the Great Rain of Fire; even the Returnists, under Ilsundal, evolved greatly during the period following the GRoF, and their descendents evolved even further in their various regions (usually in isolation from one another). Elven cultural evolution takes place within the Clan structure, as is evidenced from the materials in GAZ5 The Elves of Alfheim (and other sources, notably GAZ9 The Minrothad Guilds). The Alfheim Clans alone are tremendously different even though they live within the same kingdom, and share the same history (save the Feadiels). Third, imagine the differentiation that has taken place between the various isolated clans; now remember that language is reflectant (and reinforcing of) cultural forms, and then reflect on how the various Elven clans have had to adapt differing survival techniques over the centuries, not to mention the different peoples they have interacted with (for example, consider the environment of the Shiye Elves versus the Sheyallia Elves of Graakhalia)... Now, mix it all together and what do you get? 1) Isolated Clans that have developed not mere "dialects", but their own *languages*. 2) Groups of related Clans that have developed a "Common Elvish" Language, yet each maintaining their own dialect of that "Common Elvish". 3) Clans that fall somewhat in between, like the Shiye, who are closely related to various other groups but have developed in relative isolation over the last centuries. Thus you get the following relationships (approximately, again, off the cuff): (#) denotes point at which group broke off from prior group... Level of Understanding is equal to INT, plus any additional levels taken in the native dialect (which can be improved by 2 points per slot if a native speaker, or one point per slot if taken as a secondary language or as a general skill). Thus, your average Elf would have a Level of Understanding in his native dialect of ~10 or 11... each * denotes 1 point of difference on a scale of 1 to 20. Compare to the following table to note the level of seperation: # Relation 1 Accent Difference (Yankee versus Southern American English) 2-5 Closely related dialect (American English versus Queens English) 6-10 Distantly related dialect (Scots English versus American English) 10-15 Seperate language, close in family (English versus Dutch; "Germanic") 16+ Seperate language, distant in family (English versus Persian; "Indo-European") Total up the * by tracing back to the last common point and then up the (#)'s to reach the other language in question... thus, to get from an Alfheim Dialect to the language of the Sheyallia would require a path of: Alfheim (5) to Sylvan Realm (4) to Ilsundal (3) and back to Sheyallia (4), a total of 8 *'s, which would classify as a (rather) distantly related dialect; Blacklore Elvish versus Alfheim Elvish would be a 10 point difference, meaning that an Alfheim Elf would think that a Blacklore Elf was pretty much speaking gibberish (which is the way it should be) [while Blacklore has not essentially changed in over 3400 years, it is rife with technical terminology, as the Blacklore Elves were very intense into technology, sort of like the difference between modern American English and Lawyerese]. [D] denotes a Dead or Hypothetical language (1)Southern Elvish (Davania)* [D; modern Blacklore Elvish+***] (2)Returnist** [D] (3)Ilsundal** [D] (4)Sylvan Realm* (5)Feadiel* (5)Alfheim* [minor clans+*] (6)Chossum* (6)Erendyl (7)Erewan* (6)Grunalf* (6)Long Runner* (6)Mealidil (7)Red Arrow* (6)Shiye*** (4)Shelliya**** (3)Southern Clans* [D] (4)Vyalia** (5)Verdier* (5)Meditor** (4)Londryl** (2)Second Group* [D] (3)[D]** (4)Becadizian Dialect*** (1)Eastern Elvish (Blackmoorian) Would include all the various Shadow Elven dialects, Schattenalfen, Icevale Elvish, and Gentle Folk Elvish, as well as (Canonical, that is) the Wendarian Elves. As a general guide, for every 200 years of seperation, subtract 1 point of understanding up to 5 points (1000 years), and 1 point for every 500 years thereafter (thus, an Elf transported from 4000 BC would lose 15 points of understanding, so he would not understand much modern Elvish at all unless he had a high INT or he had studied his mother tongue quite intensely). Note that this quick system doesn't fit exactly with the numbers above, as the above numbers reflect the fact that there was some connection between groups. Just a few ideas... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:47:04 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > At 23.36 29/06/97 +0200, you wrote: > >On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > > > >> I like the idea of the Glantrian being a sort of magical code used by > >> the students of the GSoM (this could be an useful new abbreviation :). > >> Maybe in these years some students have developed an "higher" language: > >> a faster, clearer and more refined way of speaking. IMO, this is not a > >> normal language, it's something more complete: it should involve the > >> movement of the hands, the expression of the face and so on. It is much > >> better than any other known language and it is as complete as ESP. > >> Of course, just a few people are enough intelligent to speak this > >> language. > > > >I think that is a good idea. However there should be an official language > >that all glantrians and forreigners can learn. > >In addition there could be one or several magic cants which work as you > >describe.. IMC, for a matter of simplicity, the language spoken in all the principalities is Thyatian common. However every principality has its own dialect or proper language: Sylaire, Flaemish, Elvish and so on. About the "magic" Glantrian, it's spoken IMHO *only* by the students of the GSoM. > Last year in a thread about Glantrian someone suggested that only the mages > (i.e. former students of the GSoM) know the common language, so that > commoners from different principalities are less likely to band together > and overthrow the rulers. > I think this is a good idea and fits very well with the Glantrian setting. IMO the Glantrian has been developed also to diffuse a sense of unity inside the ruling class, maybe after the events of WotI. Speaking the same "noble" language, all the magic users of Glantri feel a sense of fellow-citizenship. What do you think? - -Diego ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #104 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #105 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, July 2 1997 Volume 02 : Number 105 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:55:31 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games IMC time moves slowly. I dont think that any of my characters would get involved because it would take too many years to go to. I think that every two years would be good. One year for tryouts to see who makes the cut, the next to go. The games would always be an active part of the campaign this way. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:07:45 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] What about Bruce? In a message dated 97-06-28 17:28:59 EDT, you write: << I just realized that we haven't heard from Bruce in a bit. Anyone know if he has stayed on after the move to Seattle or if he's left TSR? >> Sorry -- didn't mean to ignore you. I've just been way too busy these past weeks. As far as Seattle goes, I guess I'm one of the *undecided* ones. More after GenCon. (Thanks for asking!) :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:50:16 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Glantrian On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > And I, in turn, must disagree with your view. While it is indeed true that > the Elves are much more long lived than Humans, and there have been fewer > generations since the GRoF (40 for humans/6 for Elves by the "Longest Age" > calculation, or more accurately, ~200 for Humans and ~20 for Elves (I use the > "Reproductive Generation" calculation; i.e., the average age of highest level > of "reproductive utility", which I place at 20 for Humans and 200 for > Elves)), For the record, your generation calculation is a lot closer to my actual projected generation gap. I just used the Longest Age progression for argument's sake, but, on to other things... :) > IMO Elves are as likely if not moreso than Humans to have a rapid, > "personal" evolution to their language. This is my arguement (off the cuff, > as it were): Hmm... looks intriguing thus far, but here are some comments: > First, the Elves of Mystara are *extremely* clan oriented; this is obvious > from all evidence in all the Canonical materials; while Elves do have an > overall identity, they are more likely to identify with their respective > clans than as "Elves", though quite naturally they will identify as "Elves" > versus other races... Sure, but see below. > Second, the Elves of Mystara have undergone *intensive cultural evolution* > since the Great Rain of Fire; even the Returnists, under Ilsundal, evolved > greatly during the period following the GRoF, and their descendents evolved > even further in their various regions (usually in isolation from one > another). I don't see this so much. For one thing, it is continually stated that the elves returned to their former ways, dispensing with the cultural influences of Blackmoor. IMO, they would have become even more rigid and unchanging of their cultural traditions in light of the Blackmoor disaster, determined not to let outside influences disrupt their lifeways. > Elven cultural evolution takes place within the Clan structure, as > is evidenced from the materials in GAZ5 The Elves of Alfheim (and other > sources, notably GAZ9 The Minrothad Guilds). The Alfheim Clans alone are > tremendously different even though they live within the same kingdom, and > share the same history (save the Feadiels). I tend to view the various clans of elves as being more "political tribes" rather than "cultural tribes". To use your example of the Alfheim elves, IMO, the various clans all share the same cultural continuity and "traditional" elements of elven culture (with some minor variations), but are politically oriented. The Red Arrow clan is a group that became politically distinct because of their warfare oriented ways; elves who were more interested in those arts came together to form the Red Arrow clan- they weren't necessarily related, though after centuries, the result is that many of them currently are blood relatives. By a similar token, the Mealidel "political" clan was formed from elves who shared similar interests in history (or whatever the hell it was). The closest real world analogue I can think of would be the political tribes of the Pai; the southwest indian group that resulted in the modern day Havasupai and Hualapai. The Hualapai and Havasuapai were political regional bands of the Pai tribe; they shared a similar culture and history, but were distinct political units (and rarely came together for common action, but the elves are a bit more united than this.) > Third, imagine the differentiation that has taken place between the various > isolated clans; now remember that language is reflectant (and reinforcing of) > cultural forms, and then reflect on how the various Elven clans have had to > adapt differing survival techniques over the centuries, not to mention the > different peoples they have interacted with (for example, consider the > environment of the Shiye Elves versus the Sheyallia Elves of Graakhalia)... Sure, and in some isolated instances, I would agree with you that the languages would be very dissimilar. The Shadowelves and Sheyallia in particular would have likely very different, if not totally so, languages from outer world elves. Geographic isolation will play a key as well- the Savage Coast Elves and the Known World Elves will have more difficulty understanding one another than will two clans of Known World Elves. But I don't believe that the elvish language will be nearly as dissimilar as human languages, or languages of any of the shorter lived races. > Thus you get the following relationships (approximately, again, off the > cuff): [language breakdown snipped] Interesting. A lot to look at. Expect a more detailed response on this bit in a later post, after I absorb it all. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:33:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > I agree with the 5 years figure, it is definitely the easiest. But if > four years is preferred, I think there should be a 1016 games rather > than 1017, thus allowing the games to be held in an "acceptable" pattern > from then on. Do we need an easy approach? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Gary Gygax (was Re: Comments from WotC.) > One of the things I've been working on personally is building bridges and > mending fences, that is, trying to improve relationships with some of the > people who used to work here but don't anymore. I've had conversations > with Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Zeb Cook, Margaret Weis, Tracy Hickman, and > so on. It is too early to tell where these discussions will lead, but I'm > cautiously optimistic that we will be able to work with some of these > people once again. i was under the impression that gary gygax had recently passed away i believe i was told this a year or two ago i guess i was misinformed if peter adkinson is having conversations with him but just to make sure its not a misprint ill ask you is gary gygax alive? - --- -- --Crip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:45:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Ethengar question Here's one: During the Week of No Magic, what happened to Jaku the Render (possessing the body of one of the Khans- I forget which). Anyway, what happened to him? Was a) the body vacated by Jaku, who was forced to linger on the Spirit Plane for a week and fume? - - or - b) the body vacated by Jaku, and the Khan's spirit released, where he was able to realize that he had been possessed for years by an evil spirit? In case A, one would figure that the Khan's body goes comatose every year on Kaldmont 28th (and somebody should get suspicious, I'd think). In case B, one would wonder that the Khan didn't take some sort of precautions against a "repossession" as it were, by Jaku. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:54:54 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games At 09.55 30/06/97 -0500, you wrote: >IMC time moves slowly. I dont think that any of my characters would get >involved because it would take too many years to go to. I think that >every two years would be good. One year for tryouts to see who makes >the cut, the next to go. > >The games would always be an active part of the campaign this way. This is the main reason that prompted part of the Almanac team (only me actually :) to support the two years schedule. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/ - -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:51:34 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gary Gygax (was Re: Comments from WotC.) > i was under the impression that gary gygax had recently passed away > i believe i was told this a year or two ago Biologically, Gygax is still alive. Career-wise, now that is debatable. > i guess i was misinformed if peter adkinson is having conversations with him Not necessarily. Could be one of those Hillary Clinton/Eleanor Roosevelt kind of things. > but just to make sure its not a misprint ill ask you > is gary gygax alive? Yup. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:47:00 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> I agree with the 5 years figure, it is definitely the easiest. But if >> four years is preferred, I think there should be a 1016 games rather >> than 1017, thus allowing the games to be held in an "acceptable" pattern >> from then on. > >Do we need an easy approach? It does make things easier, doesn't it! ;-) Seriously, for some reason I like it more if the games are held in a regular pattern, for instance every five years at the beginning and middle of a decade (and the end/beginning of the next). For instance, an every five years figure starting in 1016 or 1017 is "messy". It just makes more sense (to me) to have it nice and "tidy". :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:55:13 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] The Northern Reaches - Udal Law Here is an extract from a book written by my dad about Orkney. It may be of interest to anyone who likes the Northern Reaches setting, since it is an old Norse idea. I think it would be cool to figure this method of land-ownership into Vestland or Soderfjord, or maybe Ostland at a push. It probably works best in Soderfjord. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ UDAL LAW Udal Law, from ON odal - land held in allodial tenure, is the ancient Norse system of inheritance and law which the Viking settlers brought to Orkney. No trace remains of the previous legal system, which no doubt derived from the distant past with influences from previous incomers, but there is evidence that the Norse took over control of an existing pattern of settlement. About 1280 King Magnus Lagabote (the Lawmender) supervised a revising and codification of the old laws, which of course applied to Orkney as part of Norway. Udal Law is totally different to Scots Law. Udallers have absolute ownership of their land, with no superior, gained by holding the land over a number of generations, normally originally by settlement. This land was held in unwritten freehold, with no obligation except a duty to pay tax or skat to the king. The eldest son inherited the father's house, while the rest of the property was shared among siblings, daughters inheriting half as much as sons. Over the years this led to an extreme fragmentation of land ownership and, despite reform, left Orkney wide open to exploitation. The fact that no written documents were required to substantiate possession greatly confused the Scots. The lack of Title Deeds was much used by Scottish "landlords" and their lawyers, as one of the means of grabbing lands from the real owners. Considerable amounts of hill land are still held in this ancient manner, which can cause problems for public bodies at times. There was a policy on the part of the Scottish Crown to acquire the Udal rights to land, because although the Scottish Parliament had "abolished" Norse Law in 1611, this could not be retrospective. Indeed in view of the pawned nature of the islands any Scottish Act over the Norse Law even now may be in doubt. Steadily Scots "landowners" acquired "ownership" of Udal lands by often dubious means, until the Udallers were very much reduced. Ironically this was eventually to lead to the downfall of the incoming laird class themselves. The fundamental difficulty with Scotland was that the King was nominally the owner of all of the land, which was held by landlords with the Crown as superior, and with services and payments to be made, as well as a written title, whereas the Udal system was virtually the direct opposite. This remains incomprehensible to Edinburgh lawyers, well versed in Feudal Law but not in Udal Law. Udal Law still exists today, most apparent in the ownership of the coastline. Whereas in the rest of Britain ownership of land extends only to the High Water mark, in Orkney and Shetland this extends to the lowest Spring ebb, plus variously as far as a stone can be thrown, or a horse can be waded, or a salmon net can be thrown. This has enormous implications to building work, inshore fisheries and piers. Also anything arriving fortuitously on the shore is technically the property of the landowner. Naturally the lairds used Udal Law to control their lucrative Kelp-making trade. Since the foreshore belongs to the adjacent landowner and is not Common Land, there is no absolute right of access to the inter-tidal zone in Orkney (or Shetland). However traditionally no one objects to folk going along the shore. If in doubt it is polite to ask. Another anomaly is the Mute Swan. About 1910 a Kirkwall lawyer was determined to prove that Udal Law still had force, and accompanied by his friend, the Procurator Fiscal, went out to Harray Loch and shot a swan. The case went to the High Court and the Crown lost. Everywhere else in UK the Crown owned the swans - in Orkney they were, and still are, the property of the people. Nowadays we do not shoot swans, but the principles of the old Norse Udal Law still stand. In the mid-1970s when the Occidental Oil Company was building its pipeline to Flotta, it negotiated with the Crown Estate for rights to cross the foreshore at the end of the 4th Barrier at Cara without realising that the Crown has no authority over the intertidal zone in Orkney. The Company had apparently even paid the Crown Commissioners for a privilege that they had no authority to dispense when the landowner realised that his rights had been infringed. Thus state ignorance of Udal law continues to this day. The Crown had to admit the supremacy of Udal Law in this respect and refund their charges in favour of the actual landowner. Thus there has been little change in the attitude of Edinburgh lawyers in the last 600 years - they still treaty the Udal Law with contempt - hopefully at their continued peril! Orcadians still like to think that the classless society of today derives from the Udal tradition, where every man is equal, but also every man has an equal duty to society. Today's Orcadian may be a mixture of Norse, Scots and others, but he or she is nevertheless still independent by nature. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ All of the above text is of course copyright 1997 Charles Tait (my dad). Please feel free to use it but don't print it out and sell it (as if you could... ;-). Anyway, I'll be happy to (try to) field any questions on this. I hope some of you find it interesting. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:46:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Mark of Amber Okay. I just got this module today, and so far it's looking pretty good (although there are a few questionable bits, mostly from the conversion to AD&D- A Mind Flayer?!?!?!). Don't know if I need to put spoilers, as we've discussed this quite a bit in the past, but I'll do it anyway... Okay. So Etienne comes back in the end. We all know this, though it's questionable exactly what condition he returns in. My question, though, is this. Before I got the module, I recall someone who had it asking what precisely took place in 1012, when everyone returns to Castle Amber (as detailed in the 1012 Almanac), since the module takes place in 1013. To this, now that I own the module, I must say, "What?" The module is clearly stated to take place in 1012 (thus explaining the return to Castle Amber bits in the Almanac). This being the case, then, Etienne has been back in Glantri since 1012, in some capacity. The question is, what shall we do with him? I can buy the story that he has been laying low for a couple of years, learning to deal with the lessons that his recent life has taught him. Is this what we want him to do, though? I ask mainly because the question has come up among the Almanac compilers, and it was agreed to let him lie low for the time being (of course, at the time, I didn't realize that he had already returned in 1012; I thought it wasn't until later; wasn't even sure if it was specified). Thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:53:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games Fabrizio Paoli pontificated: > > This is the main reason that prompted part of the Almanac team (only me > actually :) to support the two years schedule. How about something like this, hold world games every 2.5 years, and alternating between summer and winter games (not sure what classic winter games are there, but I assume there must be some). So the next game could be 1117 winter then 1120 summer. This way it sort of kept the 5 years cycle that some people suggested but also have some sort of world game not too far apart in time. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 12:16:46 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ethengar question At 12.45 30/06/97 -0700, Cthul wrote: >Here's one: > >During the Week of No Magic, what happened to Jaku the Render (possessing >the body of one of the Khans- I forget which). Anyway, what happened to him? > >Was a) the body vacated by Jaku, who was forced to linger on the Spirit >Plane for a week and fume? > >- or - > >b) the body vacated by Jaku, and the Khan's spirit released, where he was >able to realize that he had been possessed for years by an evil spirit? None of the above, IMHO. Since Jaku possessed the body of the Khan, the question is where was the Khan's spirit exiled? If he was in another plane (Spirit Plane), unable to reach his body, then with the Week of No Magic what happened is simply that Jaku was not able to exert power over its body, but he couldn't leave it either (this would call for a planar travel, and since no magic works and he's not an immortal...). So he would remain comatose (as u suggested below), unable to move or speak for the entire time. If on the other hand the Khan's spirit was in his body too, but unable to exert control over it for the presence of Jaku, then in the Week with No Magic he simply "awoke" to conscience while Jaku entered a comatose state, like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, and then, at the end of the Week, Jaku would have tried again to regain control over the body of the Khan (and i think he succeeded). So that's what i think should happen in the following Days of Dread to the Khan (drat! I cannot remember his name!): either remains comatose, or the real personality takes over the body, knowing that he will be possessed again at the end of the day (well, this could definitely be a really nasty curse for the poor fellow... and maybe one of these days he will commit suicide... only to find that Jaku is able to reanimate his body and that he's trapped until he finds a way to escape or destroy Jaku... this is a good scenario IMO)... DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 12:31:07 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber At 18.46 30/06/97 -0700, Cthul wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E >Okay. So Etienne comes back in the end. We all know this, though it's >questionable exactly what condition he returns in. Will it be then next topic of the polls here on the mailing list? :) >This being the case, then, Etienne has been back in Glantri since 1012, >in some capacity. The question is, what shall we do with him? I can buy >the story that he has been laying low for a couple of years, learning to >deal with the lessons that his recent life has taught him. Is this what >we want him to do, though? Ok, here's my ramblings: OPTION 1 if he's back as a mortal, he needed time to understand what happened and to test the might of his rivals. So he has traveled Glantri in disguise to test who's loyal to him and to Glantri and who's not, carefully avoiding being discovered (and he can). He has noticed that something evil and wild is going on since his disappearence and now wants to locate the source of the troubles and to eradicate it before it's too late and Glantri is tainted (becoming a twisted parody of its former self). Only when his researches and investigations will lead him to the core of the problem (read Synn), he will reveal himself and rally his allies to put an end to the Dark Side of Glantri (possibly resulting in a civil war and 2 new different countries - i know it's a bit apocalyptic, but i like it this way :)) OPTION 2 the same description detailed above applies, but this time he will undoubtedly discover very soon the real identity of Synn and possibly also guess her plans (if he's back in 1012 then by the end of 1013 he will have figured out all these things). But if he's immortal, he'll have other issues to solve (more pressing ones for this matter): explain how he's back, who was the Stranger that took him away, where he's been and WHAT the HECK has he SEEN! So he will have to move very secretly to go unchecked before it's the right time to act. Probably now his mission is to make the other immortals understand that they cannot abuse of their powers, and he will be like a sort of Controller or Guardian of the Immortals themselves (maybe he's got new powers), and this will surely arouse the other immortals' suspicion if not hatred. Note that in this case i'm also assuming the Rad is Gareth (returned from the Vortex) and not little Rheddrian Benekander. Ok, that's my guess... DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:38:46 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [Mystara] Alfheim and Minrothad Hello, As the gazetteers mentioned in the subject header are the ones that I don't have, could someone be so kind as to send me a short list of important personalities of those two lands (like elven clan heads or Minrothad guildmasters), with classes and levels if you can. I would appreciate that greatly. Thank you, ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 12:44:31 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Elven dialects (was: Glantrian) I tend to agree with Mystaros when he says that elves are very much similar to humans as long as the linguistic issue is concerned. We don't have to forget that a language is mainly influenced by three things: - -cultural and historical background of the speakers - -presence of other languages (and culture) on the same territory - -presence of natural barriers (rivers, oceans, mountain ranges) If u take this into account, then you will clearly notice that all the different elvish groups (clans) have been somehow separated from one another for a certain period of time, have interacted with different other (mainly human) cultures and have therefore (despite the strong cultural identity of the elvish race) been influenced by their customs and languages TO SOME EXTENT. In some cases the influence has been heavy (Belcadiz), in some other faint (Alfheim). But aside from the other culture's influence, huge or slight, we must also consider that if two tribes of the same ethnic stock live separate for decades or in this case for centuries, they will inevitably alter somehow their language, using particularly some words and forgetting others, creating new words, perhaps new idiomatic sentences, and above all adopting a distinct slang, accent and background references (the background references are the information and topics that all the speakers of a certain culture share and need not express when they talk among each other). This explains well the existence of many different elvish dialects, which for the most share a common matrix, but which have gone far from it with the passing of years. If you're interested in this topic, there is something about it in my homepage: the revised version of Fabrizio Paoli's Essay on Mystaran Languages, where i've included the genealogy of all the demi-human tongues. Check it out and see if u agree or if u have some more specifications to make. DM dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/3090 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:01:00 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ethengar question On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > Days of Dread to the Khan (drat! I cannot remember his name!): either > It's Kadan Khan. ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:03:44 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > immortals' suspicion if not hatred. Note that in this case i'm also > assuming the Rad is Gareth (returned from the Vortex) and not little > Rheddrian Benekander. > Hey, this could lead to another Rad-Ixion conflict! Rad (as Gareth) is stealing the Sindhi worshippers of Ayazi-Himayeti-Aksyri (Ixion). Time for another WotI?! ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:50:46 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > I ask mainly because the question has come up among the Almanac > compilers, and it was agreed to let him lie low for the time being (of > course, at the time, I didn't realize that he had already returned in > 1012; I thought it wasn't until later; wasn't even sure if it was > specified). > > Thoughts? > I think a good idea may be that Etienne gets a hint that something is going on with Dolores Hillsbury (perhaps from Malachie du Marais, who already has suspicions). He would then lie low, quietly gather his allies (all the Averoignian nobles, also maybe Erewan elves) and work to undermine her influence. This could lead to a lot of behind-the-scenes struggle and intrigue - the way of life in Glantri. ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 15:34:35 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber At 15.03 01/07/97 +0300,Aleksei wrote: >On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > >> immortals' suspicion if not hatred. Note that in this case i'm also >> assuming the Rad is Gareth (returned from the Vortex) and not little >> Rheddrian Benekander. >> >Hey, this could lead to another Rad-Ixion conflict! Rad (as Gareth) is >stealing the Sindhi worshippers of Ayazi-Himayeti-Aksyri (Ixion). Time for >another WotI?! > Wow man, slow down! I wasn't pointing to this end with my idea, although you're right, this could very well happen... Never thought about this new clash... maybe Rad is only trying to get Ixion's attention to explain to him first what all the Immortals are asked to do by the Old Ones... dunno really.. DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:16:33 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > OPTION 1 > if he's back as a mortal, he needed time to understand what happened and > to test the might of his rivals. So he has traveled Glantri in disguise to > test who's loyal to him and to Glantri and who's not, carefully avoiding > being discovered (and he can). i cant agree with this if for no other reason the duel between etienne and henri is done in the public eye the d'ambreville family is there very few have any type of loyalty to etienne from erewan, princess cartolina's sister is there (dona i think) from (who knows where) are the pcs from boldavia is a spy claude d'ambreville from morlay-malinbois is dian moriamis i think synn may have had agents there also there is no way etienne can keep this a secret and he knows that i forget what the end of the module says but this is what i did i had etienne reclaim his position as prince and to prove that hes back various princes visited the castle within a couple of weeks including prince malachie, princess valerdoen and prince haaskins > OPTION 2 > Note that in this case i'm also > assuming the Rad is Gareth (returned from the Vortex) and not little > Rheddrian Benekander. > > Ok, that's my guess... > > DM now that is interesting when in the almanacs did gareth appear? after MoA takes place? imc etienne came back immortal i like this for the main reason that hes unique actually being a half-immortal im sure he could come back as a mortal and become immortal again but that would make him just like the other immortals the way he achieved immortality was unique and the results of it was also unique id like to keep it that way - --- -- --Crip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:09:08 -0500 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 09.55 30/06/97 -0500, Rob Rickard wrote: > >IMC time moves slowly. I dont think that any of my characters would > get > >involved because it would take too many years to go to. I think that > > >every two years would be good. One year for tryouts to see who makes > > >the cut, the next to go. > > > >The games would always be an active part of the campaign this way. > > This is the main reason that prompted part of the Almanac team (only > me > actually :) to support the two years schedule. When I am faced with a decision like this I try to think who in Mystara controls it and what would they do. After thinking about it I could not come up with too many countries that would want the "world games" I do not have world games IMC yet. I try to keep cultures from mixing too much. The world is too big and it takes too long to get from place to place with out magic. I feel that 2 years is better because the people of most countries would want to hear results as soon as possible. I also feel that we are only trying to put it in a 5 year span to make it easy on us. I know that my players would not care for the world games if it was every 5 years. That would be about every 3 real years IMC. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 11:23:06 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Ethengar question On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > None of the above, IMHO. Since Jaku possessed the body of the Khan, the > question is where was the Khan's spirit exiled? I believe it is mentioned that the Khan's spirit is confined in a magic jar on the Spirit Plane. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 23:50:37 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Module Idea Say- A thought just occurred to me. Has anyone ever considered playing module X1: Isle of Dread, as a sort of Mystaran Jurassic Park? You know, a wealthy Minrothaddan/Ierendi/Thyatian entrepreneur learns of the island and decides to use it as a resort park for travellers. If nothing else, it could be used as a followup scenario to the one presented in X1. Ie, years after exploring and mapping the Isle, the adventurers learn that it is being utilized as a resort. They must set off immediately to warn the tourists of the dangers!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 11:23:34 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] World Games At 21:33 30-06-97 +0200, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > >> I agree with the 5 years figure, it is definitely the easiest. But if >> four years is preferred, I think there should be a 1016 games rather >> than 1017, thus allowing the games to be held in an "acceptable" pattern >> from then on. > >Do we need an easy approach? I what year did they start? 1012? Why should there be a logic to it? If we use once in a four years, then it will eventually change...so it doesn't really matter... Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:19:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > How do we determine reasonable level increase during Wrath? > > > > I did a writeup a while back on the Glantrian nobles, where I > > extrapolated all the experience that they would have gained from ruling > > their dominions over the course of the Wrath of the Immortals. I'll > > certainly post it if anyone is interested. > > I am, send it my way Cthul :) > > Haavard I'd be really interested in seeing that too. ray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 13:24:08 -0400 From: MRJohnson Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber DM wrote: > > At 15.03 01/07/97 +0300,Aleksei wrote: > >On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > > > >> immortals' suspicion if not hatred. Note that in this case i'm also > >> assuming the Rad is Gareth (returned from the Vortex) and not little > >> Rheddrian Benekander. > >> > >Hey, this could lead to another Rad-Ixion conflict! Rad (as Gareth) is > >stealing the Sindhi worshippers of Ayazi-Himayeti-Aksyri (Ixion). Time for > >another WotI?! > > > Wow man, slow down! I wasn't pointing to this end with my idea, although > you're right, this could very well happen... Never thought about this new > clash... maybe Rad is only trying to get Ixion's attention to explain to > him first what all the Immortals are asked to do by the Old Ones... dunno > really.. > > DM The difficulty here is that Gareth first shows up in 1011, a year before Mark of Amber. This leaves the mystery of Gareth unsolved, as he can't be Rad. Personally, I think that Benekander is an unlikely candidate as well, mainly because WotI makes it fairly clear that he has clerics already under the name "Benekander". Somehow Gareth has always seemed a rather sinister character to me anyway, although there's really no evidence to support the idea. Michael. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 11:32:31 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > Hey, this could lead to another Rad-Ixion conflict! Rad (as Gareth) is > stealing the Sindhi worshippers of Ayazi-Himayeti-Aksyri (Ixion). Time for > another WotI?! The major problem with this is, didn't Gareth show up in 1011, and not 1012? Which means his appearance was too early for it to be Rad. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #105 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #106 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, July 4 1997 Volume 02 : Number 106 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 11:41:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Tue, 1 Jul 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > > > > OPTION 1 > > if he's back as a mortal, he needed time to understand what happened and > > to test the might of his rivals. So he has traveled Glantri in disguise to > > test who's loyal to him and to Glantri and who's not, carefully avoiding > > being discovered (and he can). > i cant agree with this > the duel between etienne and henri is done in the public eye > the d'ambreville family is there > from erewan, princess cartolina's sister is there (dona i think) It's Dona Carmina of Belcadiz, actually, which makes things that much worse, as those Belcadiz elves are terrible gossips. :) > from (who knows where) are the pcs > from boldavia is a spy claude d'ambreville Possibly found out, though, as a spy and returned to life. > from morlay-malinbois is dian moriamis Who is loyal to Averoigne, though. > i think synn may have had agents there also Other than Henri, none explicitly mentioned. > there is no way etienne can keep this a secret > and he knows that > i forget what the end of the module says > but this is what i did > i had etienne reclaim his position as prince > and to prove that hes back > various princes visited the castle within a couple of weeks > including prince malachie, princess valerdoen and prince haaskins The end does mention that various Princes visit. Myself, I might buy that he allows Isidore to continue ruling for a few years while he recuperates and regains allies, etc. (though his return will likely be well known). Another possibility is that Isidore refuses to relinquish the position. She is the legal ruler, now, not Etienne... could lead to a political battle between the two. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 03:48:03 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: Re: [Mystara] netMAGs GUILLORY: BRANT wrote: > > Form: Memo > Text: (18 lines follow) > I have #s 6 & 7 ready for mailing. They are .zip format. ... > on the webpage, they are available as both .sit and .zip files What it's the .sit format? How can I read it... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:51:47 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: [Mystara] Newbie Question Greetings all, I'm brand-spanking-new to the mailing list and I have a question: has anyone here put much thought towards Herath? I'd love to know what anyone has to say; I played a Herathian for a while, and I always regretted that Herath didn't get more ink. J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 04:14:28 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: [Mystara] OD&D Games... via email??? Hi all, I'm a recent subscriber to the listserve, and am quite interested in OD&D (Old Dungeons and Dragons)... I used to own all the sets and modules... but in a fit of stupidity and ignorance, gave the stuff away (sigh). Anyways, does anyone play OD&D via email? I know it is being done for AD&D... but I have always enjoyed the original game... mostly for sentimental reasons. Thanks much, ____________________________________________________ | || | Chris Paul Billows B.S.W. B.A. || | Renewal or Regression - www.gatewest.net/~cpb || |_________________________________________________|| \_________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:54:24 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: [Mystara] Test Hi all, I'm new to the mailing list. I sent this message yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have gotten through. Anyway, has anyone here put much thought towards Herath? I played a Herathian for a while, and always regretted that Herath didn't get more ink. J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 12:59:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ray Brooks wrote: > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > > > > I did a writeup a while back on the Glantrian nobles, where I > > > extrapolated all the experience that they would have gained from ruling > > > their dominions over the course of the Wrath of the Immortals. I'll > > > certainly post it if anyone is interested. > > > I'd be really interested in seeing that too. I seem to have misplaced it, but I'm still looking. I hope to find it by this evening. There's a couple of places I haven't looked yet. My house is such a pit... :( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:02:20 -0400 (EDT) From: DUFFISGOD@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber IMC ettinne returned as an Immortal. His first priority after his return was to contact the fellowship of the star. he explained his absence as "trying to get resituated to the many changes" . apon his return he starts to work on several plots 1 reclaim his place as head of the Great School of Magic. this will allow him more pull in the council. but will make harold of haaskinz an enemy. 2 establish relations with prince kol. a new prince is an easy ally. and since kol is a shadow elf and because of his relationship with rafiel he feels he must look out for the kobold. 3 expand the shepards of rad . as a group the shepards have not been exactly active lately. ettinne triesz to reorganise and expand their are of influence. he also supports programs against ant-religious discrimination. 4 kick synns butt. rad was very angry when he learned that an entropic fiend would DARE set foot in his Glantri. there are more but this is kind of long as is "Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats." Howard Aiken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:33:00 -0500 From: "GUILLORY: BRANT" Subject: [Mystara] my address Form: Memo Text: (20 lines follow) As of tomorrow, this address will be shut down. I intend to resubscribe in digest form from my AOL account. The problem is, I'm heading to Ft. Irwin, and there's no AOL local# there. I expect to have a JUNO account up and running for emaila ccess. I will maintain my AOL account for both the webpage and some selected email, but I will be on the limited-use plan and won't check it too often. As soon as I'm up and running, I'll let the list know. In the meantime, I've almost completed netMAG#8 - gimme a week or so and I should be done. party ever onward LT Brant D. Guillory 3rd Platoon, TF 1-40 AR TF Supply Officer CAH2774@texcom-hood.army.mil PH (408) 386-2137 DSN 686-2710/2137 webpage: members.aol.com/b1bard/ Use Proportional Font: true ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 08:59:33 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alfheim and Minrothad >As the gazetteers mentioned in the subject header are the ones that I >don't have, could someone be so kind as to send me a short list of >important personalities of those two lands (like elven clan heads or >Minrothad guildmasters), with classes and levels if you can. I would >appreciate that greatly. > I'd like to answer this on a web page, but I am concerned about the TSR-online police. So I went to http://www.tsrinc.com to check the policy and Netscape says "The server does not have a DNS entry." Is the tsrinc.com domain dead? Is there currently a good place online to get a copy of the online/copyright policy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:45:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Wassellj@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion I am new to the mailing list, Has anyone got any information about the running of Dominions. I am aware that there was a lot of discussion at one time about the economics of dominions, and some on the running costs involved. I had some notes on this at one time, but I must have lost them at some time I think that the Rules have a lack of realism about them. I believe that in one of the publications it said that the Rules had been established to force Dominion-holders to adventure to pay for the overheads. Any help would be appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:47:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Module Idea On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > Say- A thought just occurred to me. Has anyone ever considered playing > module X1: Isle of Dread, as a sort of Mystaran Jurassic Park? You know, > a wealthy Minrothaddan/Ierendi/Thyatian entrepreneur learns of the island > and decides to use it as a resort park for travellers. > > If nothing else, it could be used as a followup scenario to the one > presented in X1. Ie, years after exploring and mapping the Isle, the > adventurers learn that it is being utilized as a resort. They must set > off immediately to warn the tourists of the dangers!!! I dont think it is a bad idea. However, the thought of Mystaran tourists make me shiver. This phenomenon is also mentioned, I believe, in the Ierendi GAz. IMO people in a fantasy world should be more like people in a medeival world. Their main concerns should be taking care of the animals(livestock), harvesting, fishing, supporting their wife and children. They dont have time to go on vacation, see dino's and all that. Also, to the common man it would be pointless. Why would they want to see creatures who should be dead long ago. Nobles would mostly be involved in wars and maintaining order in their dominions. On the other hand, there are the sons(or in a few cases daughters) of nobles who dont care much for responsibilities and want to go out adventuring. They might fancy a litle dinosaur hunt.Also, mages might want components from these beasts of the past. However I ndont think anyone could actually make a living by bringing people there. Ofcourse, sometime in the future this might change. IF there still are dinosaurs there in that time. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:21:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: (On Glantrian Nobles) > I seem to have misplaced it, but I'm still looking. I hope to find it by > this evening. There's a couple of places I haven't looked yet. My house > is such a pit... :( You mean the house in the Pacific? ;) Or whichever sea it was located under.... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:14:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Games... via email??? On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Chris Paul Billows wrote: > Anyways, does anyone play OD&D via email? I know it is being done for AD&D... > but I have always enjoyed the original game... mostly for sentimental reasons. I know there has been email campaigns. Some have been announced on this list so stay in touch. If you are planning on staring your own campaign, I'm sure many here would be interested. I might join in myself, but not before school starts again. Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:19:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Test On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, John W. Mangrum wrote: > Hi all, I'm new to the mailing list. I sent this message yesterday, but > it doesn't seem to have gotten through. > > Anyway, has anyone here put much thought towards Herath? I played a > Herathian for a while, and always regretted that Herath didn't get more > ink. I got both of your mails. Maybe you're not properly subscribed? Anyway, while im at it: welcome to the list. :) I've never playedin any campaigns set on the Savage Coast. However Herath is as good a place as any. Perhaps even better than some. There was some info on Araneans of the Known World in the new PWA (1014) which is available on the MPGN site. haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:40:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > Okay. I just got this module today, and so far it's looking pretty good > (although there are a few questionable bits, mostly from the conversion > to AD&D- A Mind Flayer?!?!?!). Couldn't we make him a brain collector or something? I dont want him in my world! :) Haavard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:05:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, MRJohnson wrote: > The difficulty here is that Gareth first shows up in 1011, a year before > Mark of Amber. This leaves the mystery of Gareth unsolved, as he can't > be Rad. Personally, I think that Benekander is an unlikely candidate as > well, mainly because WotI makes it fairly clear that he has clerics > already under the name "Benekander". Somehow Gareth has always seemed a > rather sinister character to me anyway, although there's really no > evidence to support the idea. Okay. Then Gareth aint Rad. Unless Rad travelled back in time, but that is a bit too silly. I agree that Gareth shouldn't be Benekander either. Gareth says: I have returned from the Vortex. By the "Vortex" I assume he means the Vortex dimension. There is no reason why he should lie about that since mortals dont know about it anyway. So. Gareth is either an old one or an immortal who has ventured into the Vortex dimension and made it back. He could be Sinbad or Verthandi..or someone else. Speculations. If Gareth is an immortal, he could be mad, his psyche severly damaged by his journeys in the Vortex. OR he could secretly be an agent of the Old Ones. He might not even know it himself. What does he know of the lands beyond the Vortex.( if any) What happened in there if he remembers anything. I think this might change a lot in immortal society. I think Gareth is a "good" guy. But if he isn't, well that is also possible. another idea. He could be Harrow. It is said that Diaboli might be better suited to survive travel in the vortex.... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:35:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Rad's Plans (was: Mark of Amber) On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 DUFFISGOD@aol.com wrote: > IMC ettinne returned as an Immortal. His first priority after his return was > to contact the fellowship of the star. he explained his absence as "trying to > get resituated to the many changes" . apon his return he starts to work on > several plots > 1 reclaim his place as head of the Great School of Magic. > this will allow him more pull in the council. but will make harold of > haaskinz an enemy. Interesting. > 2 establish relations with prince kol. > a new prince is an easy ally. and since kol is a shadow elf and because of > his relationship with rafiel he feels he must look out for the kobold. The rumours of Kol's ascendance into shadowelfhood is debatable. But for the sake of argument I like this. Does Kol know/believe that he is a shadow elf? thats quite important. If he is he would be a servant of rafiel. Otjerwise Rafiel might have fooled Kol into believing that he is a shadow elf and serve Rafiel anyway.. > 3 expand the shepards of rad . > as a group the shepards have not been exactly active lately. ettinne triesz > to reorganise and expand their are of influence. he also supports programs > against anti-religious discrimination. I like this. However Etienne might make many enemies if he is to involve himself in that conflict. Does Rad really want clerics? He might even lose popularity among the public if more religious practice is allowed. Rad would want to make sure that he is the only immortal followed in Glantri.. > 4 kick synns butt. > rad was very angry when he learned that an entropic fiend would DARE set foot > in his Glantri. > there are more but this is kind of long as is I was intrigued by what other wrote about Glantri having become a twisted version of its former self. (The referance could have been to the new boxed set, but it was ofcourse not) Perhaps it should be portrayed more so in the upcoming almanac. The battle with synn should not be easy and should be fought over years. This battle will make both Drachenfels and Morphail his allies... I dont think Rad and Ixion will have another conflict in the future. They both should have learned from the confrontation with the Old One (or whatever it was) In fact this event may have brought the two (Sun and MAgic) closer together and they may and up as allies. Especially since the Radience now is of entrophy and that should be all immortals prime concern! Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 16:17:03 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Test Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, John W. Mangrum wrote: > > > Hi all, I'm new to the mailing list. I sent this message yesterday, but > > it doesn't seem to have gotten through. > > > > Anyway, has anyone here put much thought towards Herath? I played a > > Herathian for a while, and always regretted that Herath didn't get more > > ink. > > I got both of your mails. Maybe you're not properly subscribed? > Anyway, while im at it: welcome to the list. :) > I've never playedin any campaigns set on the Savage Coast. However Herath > is as good a place as any. Perhaps even better than some. > There was some info on Araneans of the Known World in the new PWA (1014) > which is available on the MPGN site. > Thanks for the notice. My first post turned up less than an hour after I sent the second. No idea what hung it up for so long... J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 16:52:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] New Almanac Format On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > You mean the house in the Pacific? ;) > Or whichever sea it was located under.... Erm... yeah... my house here at R'lyeh, in the ocean. All this seaweed and crap. Makes it tough to find anything. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:59:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber Haavard Roenne Faanes pontificated: > > So. Gareth is either an old one or an immortal who has ventured into the > Vortex dimension and made it back. He could be Sinbad or Verthandi..or > someone else. Just pop into my head. It has been speculated an immortal can become an old one by return to mortal and achieve immortal again, could an old one achieve something even higher by becoming immortal then work back to an old one again? If so, could Gareth be an old one that want to test that theory? John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 16:53:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > > Okay. I just got this module today, and so far it's looking pretty good > > (although there are a few questionable bits, mostly from the conversion > > to AD&D- A Mind Flayer?!?!?!). > > Couldn't we make him a brain collector or something? I dont want him in my > world! :) Since he essentially fills the role of the Brain Collector (he's in the same room as the one in X2) I'd say that he should be one, yes. :) BTW, does the AD&D description of the Brain Collector have it using magic user spells, like the D&D version, or psionics? Anyone with the Mystara Compendium know the answer? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 17:19:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Gareth says: I have returned from the Vortex. By the "Vortex" I assume he > means the Vortex dimension. There is no reason why he should lie about > that since mortals dont know about it anyway. That's a good point. I could see lying about it to the Immortals, but most mortals wouldn't know anything of it... > So. Gareth is either an old one or an immortal who has ventured into the > Vortex dimension and made it back. He could be Sinbad or Verthandi..or > someone else. Perhaps someone far more ancient. One of the older Immortals that is unknown among current Immortal society- one of the sponsors of say, Thanatos or Odin or those other ancients that don't remember a time before themselves? > Speculations. If Gareth is an immortal, he could be mad, his psyche > severly damaged by his journeys in the Vortex. OR he could secretly be an > agent of the Old Ones. He might not even know it himself. What does he > know of the lands beyond the Vortex.( if any) What happened in there if he > remembers anything. I think this might change a lot in immortal society. Those are some interesting speculations. I hadn't considered them. A mad Immortal? I sort of like that... :) > another idea. He could be Harrow. It is said that Diaboli might be better > suited to survive travel in the vortex.... And there was a group of Diaboli who came to Mystara in the year 1010... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:20:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rad's Plans (was: Mark of Amber) > > > 1 reclaim his place as head of the Great School of Magic. > > this will allow him more pull in the council. but will make harold of > > haaskinz an enemy. > It seems to me that Haaskinz was not that interested in power nor politic. He became the head of Great School of Magic mostly because he is the only one that all the prince could agree on because he is so "harmless". So I don't think he would really object of handing over the title back to Etienne, but other princes probably will. > > 3 expand the shepards of rad . > > as a group the shepards have not been exactly active lately. ettinne triesz > > to reorganise and expand their are of influence. he also supports programs > > against anti-religious discrimination. > > I like this. However Etienne might make many enemies if he is to involve > himself in that conflict. Does Rad really want clerics? He might even lose > popularity among the public if more religious practice is allowed. > Rad would want to make sure that he is the only immortal followed in > Glantri.. I think the new Etienne will be more of a moderate than before, and would be careful not to start anything that might cause more conflicts between immortals or consider mortals as mere pawns in his game. So I don't think he would try to do this. > > > 4 kick synns butt. > > rad was very angry when he learned that an entropic fiend would DARE set foot > > in his Glantri. > > The battle with synn should not be easy and should be fought over years. > This battle will make both Drachenfels and Morphail his allies... I still don't see the reason that Etienne would particularly hate Synn. But with a such a powerful figure returning to Glentri politic, Synn would probably lose some power and the ability to manuplate other nobles of Glentri, which might cause her to make the first move againest Etienne. He, of course, will make her very, very sorry for doing that, and might even toy with her a bit. Alot of how the conflicts between those two would turn out depends on whether Synn have an immortal backer or not, and if so, who. > I dont think Rad and Ixion will have another conflict in the future. They > both should have learned from the confrontation with the Old One (or > whatever it was) In fact this event may have brought the two (Sun and > MAgic) closer together and they may and up as allies. Agreed. Might not be allies, but definatly have much more respect for each other. Another question I have been wonder about Etienne. Now that he has returned, how will he resolve the difference between his girlfriend (Sophia?, name escape me for the moment), and the White Wolf, who is his strongest ally in the council of princes. Consider how much those two hates each other, Etienne might have some interesting juggling act to do. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 17:57:06 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 Wassellj@aol.com wrote: > Has anyone got any information about the running of Dominions. I am aware > that there was a lot of discussion at one time about the economics of > dominions, and some on the running costs involved. I had some notes on this > at one time, but I must have lost them at some time A good module for running a dominion is CM5: Legacy of Blood (I think that's the number). In it, the characters receive a dominion in Darokin, and are forced to deal with a number of problems. It gives a good idea about how to run a dominion. For that matter, many of the early CM modules set in Norwold give some useful material in this area. > I think that the Rules have a lack of realism about them. I believe that in > one of the publications it said that the Rules had been established to force > Dominion-holders to adventure to pay for the overheads. Bruce Heard wrote a revised set of rules for Dominions in the Known World Grimoire articles in Dragon magazine a while back. I don't recall the exact issue numbers offhand, but I can get them for you. There were something like 4 or 5 of them. He basically started the series by revising the costs for retainers, etc., that were given in the Rules Cyclopedia, and changing the gold standard in the Dominion rules to a more realistic economic structure for a feudal world. Other articles included size and makeup of dominions, changes in dominion population over time, military makeup, etc. All in all, very good material. IMO, they are far better and more realistic than the rules established in the Cyclopedia. If any of the characters in any of the campaigns I've run over the years had ever made it to high enough levels, I'd have used these revised rules. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:05:13 +0800 (WST) From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gareth and the vortex > > On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > Gareth says: I have returned from the Vortex. By the "Vortex" I assume he > > means the Vortex dimension. There is no reason why he should lie about > > that since mortals dont know about it anyway. > > That's a good point. I could see lying about it to the Immortals, but > most mortals wouldn't know anything of it... > Perhaps it is just a subtle means of lying to the immortals. Much better than lying to their face. It lets them think they have uncovered a secret. Those immortals interested in Gareth will find this out and are thus unlikely to take action against this immortal (or priests). Too risky. Gives a measure of safety to a new(?) immortal. - -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | "You're not very religious are you" glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | Spoken by the goddess Kylara to finger -l for pgp key | Lynard, her high priest http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:05:10 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > > > > > Okay. I just got this module today, and so far it's looking pretty good > > > (although there are a few questionable bits, mostly from the conversion > > > to AD&D- A Mind Flayer?!?!?!). > > > > Couldn't we make him a brain collector or something? I dont want him in my > > world! :) > > Since he essentially fills the role of the Brain Collector (he's in the > same room as the one in X2) I'd say that he should be one, yes. :) > > BTW, does the AD&D description of the Brain Collector have it using magic > user spells, like the D&D version, or psionics? Anyone with the Mystara > Compendium know the answer? > The Neh-Thalggu still use spells up to 12 of levels 1-3. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:19:00 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Herath At 15.54 02/07/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi all, I'm new to the mailing list. I sent this message yesterday, but >it doesn't seem to have gotten through. Don't panic John: it happens sometimes that the message lingers in the WebLimbo and pops out two or three days after -as it did (and since you've subscribed to other two lists you should have been used at this) ;). Anyway, i'm happy you joined us in this mailing list and hope it will be interesting to you as much as Ravenloft is... >Anyway, has anyone here put much thought towards Herath? I played a >Herathian for a while, and always regretted that Herath didn't get more >ink. > >J.W.Mangrum > Unfortunately none of us has ever mentioned anything about Herath on this list, but this doesn't mean somebody has his personal plans on it... As for me, i'm not that much involved in the Savage Coast, sorry... If u want you could do a writeup of yours on Herath, maybe fleshing it out a bit and letting us know how the thing went (i know u've the guts) :) PS: maybe you're trying to figure out who i am and how the heck do i know u? eh eh... Call me Caller... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:13:48 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Adventure Idea At 23.50 01/07/97 -0700, Cthul wrote: >Say- A thought just occurred to me. Has anyone ever considered playing >module X1: Isle of Dread, as a sort of Mystaran Jurassic Park? You know, >a wealthy Minrothaddan/Ierendi/Thyatian entrepreneur learns of the island >and decides to use it as a resort park for travellers. > >If nothing else, it could be used as a followup scenario to the one >presented in X1. Ie, years after exploring and mapping the Isle, the >adventurers learn that it is being utilized as a resort. They must set >off immediately to warn the tourists of the dangers!!! > That's a really nice idea. We could put it in the next almanac as an adventure hook for players (and do you have already thought about Lost World, the second part of the adventure?:)) I once had this idea about the Isle of Dread: some powerful and important adventurer go there and subjugate many monsters, then creates a park of adventures (much like Gastenoo's on Ierendi) with the monsters he puts in there (for example a dragon who gets "into business" with the adventurer: "you make yourself beat a bit by the tourist and i give you a small amount of the month treasure")... But then not all the isle is controlled by the adventurer and many monsters can creep in and become dangerous... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:21:24 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Gareth and Etienne (was: Mark of Amber) At 17.02 02/07/97 -0400, Duffisgod wrote: >IMC etienne returned as an Immortal. His first priority after his return was >to contact the fellowship of the star. he explained his absence as "trying to >get resituated to the many changes" . apon his return he starts to work on >several plots >1 reclaim his place as head of the Great School of Magic. >this will allow him more pull in the council. but will make harold of >haaskinz an enemy. Uh.. dunno really. Haaskinz is a good fellow and he knows that Etienne could best any other Glantrian mage. So, since the High Master of the Great School of Magic should be the most powerful wizard in Glantri, Harald will undoubtly agree to give the seat back to Etienne. I don't see him so power-hungry as other lords are... and consider also that he is a memeber of the Brotherhood of the Radiance, and that Rad has power over it, too. >2 establish relations with prince kol. >a new prince is an easy ally. and since kol is a shadow elf and because of >his relationship with rafiel he feels he must look out for the kobold. Wait ! Wait! Kol is a kobold!!! I know that there are deformed shadowelves that could resemble kobolds, but hey man, this is not really the case :) >4 kick synns butt. >rad was very angry when he learned that an entropic fiend would DARE set foot >in his Glantri. We all definitely seem to agree on the fact that there will be a Synn vs Etienne miniwar very soon... Anyway, about my speculation on the true identity of Gareth, as many of you pointed out since he appeared one year before the events in MoA take place, he cannot possibly be Etienne... unless Rad traveled back in time... But anyway, assumed this: who is then Gareth (cause i refuse the explanation that he's Benekander. I really like Benny, but this Gareth stuff seems a wee bit to powerful for him to handle. And remember that Gareth is "returned from the Vortex". Could he be an Old One? Could he be one of those Immortals who were absorbed by Blackballs or drawn into the Vortex after they succeeded twice in reaching the high hierarchy of immortality? Could he be Sinbad, whose origins are unclear to us? Or Thanatos, who's playing behind the scenes for the Old Ones know what twisted reason? I still think that Gareth is up to now the more intriguing and unexplicable mystery that TSR left us, together with Gentleman Caller's masterplan, but that's another story (and another campaign world...) :) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:45:16 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion At 05:57 PM 7/3/97 -0700, Cthul wrote: >On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 Wassellj@aol.com wrote: > >> Has anyone got any information about the running of Dominions. I am aware >> that there was a lot of discussion at one time about the economics of >> dominions, and some on the running costs involved. I had some notes on this >> at one time, but I must have lost them at some time > >A good module for running a dominion is CM5: Legacy of Blood (I think >that's the number). Actually it's CM9 (yeah... yeah... i know... i'm a darn maniac of precision);) >In it, the characters receive a dominion in Darokin, >and are forced to deal with a number of problems. It gives a good idea >about how to run a dominion. For that matter, many of the early CM >modules set in Norwold give some useful material in this area. Mmh.. actually the rules given in CM1 reflect very much the old Companion... resulting in VEERY rich dominions, especially the wilderness ones. >> I think that the Rules have a lack of realism about them. I believe that in >> one of the publications it said that the Rules had been established to force >> Dominion-holders to adventure to pay for the overheads. That's true. I have always had mostly 3 problems with dominion handling: 1. population growth (the rate given in Companion is too unbalancing, cause a nation with more than 5.000 people has a pop growth rate of 1-5% per year, and more guys means more (much more) Xps and gold for the Lord. 2. gold vs goods: it's stated in Master and Companion rules that not the whole income of the dominion comes in gold pieces, but only 10-50% of it, the rest being made up of trading goods, cattle and minerals. Ok, the point is (as my players always say): what do i do with 200.000 cows??? That's to say: how can be those "trading goods" handled to earn more cash? I understand this was a trick in order not to enrich too much the PCs, but it's frustrating to know that you've got goods for a value of 200.000 gp and cannot use them. I was thinking of using rules for merchants as proposed in Gaz11 and Gaz9, but i'll have to calculate the amount of "stocks" and "wagons" for the goods, and it's not an easy task. 3. theft: it's suggested that the treasure can be stolen or that the tithes can be faked by the tax collectors, but since the player knows exactly how much he will earn, it's difficult to do, unless you cheat on pourpose on the population number. >Bruce Heard wrote a revised set of rules for Dominions in the Known World >Grimoire articles in Dragon magazine a while back. I don't recall the >exact issue numbers offhand, but I can get them for you. There were >something like 4 or 5 of them. > >He basically started the series by revising the costs for retainers, >etc., that were given in the Rules Cyclopedia, and changing the gold >standard in the Dominion rules to a more realistic economic structure for >a feudal world. Other articles included size and makeup of dominions, >changes in dominion population over time, military makeup, etc. All in >all, very good material. IMO, they are far better and more realistic than >the rules established in the Cyclopedia. If any of the characters in any >of the campaigns I've run over the years had ever made it to high enough >levels, I'd have used these revised rules. :) I knew about these things, but i've never gotten my hands on the books. I know this is a big task, but if you've got spare time and the will to do it (and this is the main thing, basically ;)), could you please write the info on the PC and send them to me, Cthul? I could also put them on my webpage to everyone else's joy and relief. Thanx for reading. DM ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #106 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #107 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, July 8 1997 Volume 02 : Number 107 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:51:38 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion Hi! > 3. theft: it's suggested that the treasure can be stolen or that the >tithes can be faked by the tax collectors, but since the player knows >exactly how much he will earn, it's difficult to do, unless you cheat on >pourpose on the population number. Don´t let the PCs know, which rules you use for the taxes! And much more important, don´t let the PC know, exactly how many peasants live in his dominion. (Only if he has just arrieved or has counted them!) >I knew about these things, but i've never gotten my hands on the books. I >know this is a big task, but if you've got spare time and the will to do it >(and this is the main thing, basically ;)), could you please write the info >on the PC and send them to me, Cthul? I could also put them on my webpage to >everyone else's joy and relief. 1.) I´ve started to compile the infos by Bruce, the infos of the RC, and some ideas of mine into a word-file. I´m not finished, but I could send the version -4.0 to you, BUT 2.) I´m not quite sure, what the legal status is, I´m definitly sure, that I´m allowed to send it to you personally, but I don´t think that I should post it to the list, and I´m sure that you shouldn´t put it on your web-page without express permission by Bruce. Bruce? 3.) I would be quite interested in all the Mailing-List people´s input, especially Bruce´s, so I´ll ask him about sending it to you! But then again, didn´t Leroy say, that attachments work badly with the list? 4.) I´m planning to work on it again, but can´t say, when I will have enough time. And to say it again, it is NOT finished. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:01:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion DM pontificated: > > 1. population growth (the rate given in Companion is too unbalancing, > cause a nation with more than 5.000 people has a pop growth rate of 1-5% per > year, and more guys means more (much more) Xps and gold for the Lord. Adjust it down to your liking. > 2. gold vs goods: it's stated in Master and Companion rules that not the > whole income of the dominion comes in gold pieces, but only 10-50% of it, > the rest being made up of trading goods, cattle and minerals. Ok, the point > is (as my players always say): what do i do with 200.000 cows??? That's to > say: how can be those "trading goods" handled to earn more cash? I > understand this was a trick in order not to enrich too much the PCs, but > it's frustrating to know that you've got goods for a value of 200.000 gp and > cannot use them. I was thinking of using rules for merchants as proposed in > Gaz11 and Gaz9, but i'll have to calculate the amount of "stocks" and > "wagons" for the goods, and it's not an easy task. Well, that suppose to be the fun part, I think. If you and your player don't like that, perhaps you can get a merchant contact your players' characters offer to sell those goods to other areas, at say 50% commission. Then a few month later, the merchant can come back complient about how the bandit stole everything, and ask for more protaction, or wheather has prevented travel, and he can't sell the goods this month or next, or the market has fallen on cows, and just can't get as much money out of them any more, etc. Making that income not as reliable, and give things for PC to think about whether the merchant is telling the truth, or taking more than his fair share. > 3. theft: it's suggested that the treasure can be stolen or that the > tithes can be faked by the tax collectors, but since the player knows > exactly how much he will earn, it's difficult to do, unless you cheat on > pourpose on the population number. Well, I don't think the PC should know exactly how many people are there in his domain. Unless he hire a censor which would take time, money, and probably still not accurate. The tax collector could also come back and say they can't find certain number of families. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:58:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber Spoiler ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:05:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber In a message dated 97-07-03 06:31:14 EDT, DUFFISGOD@aol.com writes: << 1 reclaim his place as head of the Great School of Magic. this will allow him more pull in the council. but will make harold of haaskinz an enemy. >> Why should he bother doing that? Harold is already a firm ally of Rad (through his membership in the Fellowship of the Radiance) and would comply with almost any reasonable request from him (given their similarities in outlook). And Etienne/Rad can probably get away with at least one unreasonable request by offering to cure Harold's withered arm. No, that particular plot does not make much sense. It would be much wiser for Etienne to use Harold than to antagonize him. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:58:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber In a message dated 97-07-03 21:31:15 EDT, jsmill@IMAP1.ASU.EDU (Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One) writes: << BTW, does the AD&D description of the Brain Collector have it using magic user spells, like the D&D version, or psionics? Anyone with the Mystara Compendium know the answer? >> The AD&D version uses Wizard spells, just like the D&D version. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:58:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Web site for TSR (was Re: Alfheim and Minrothad) In a message dated 97-07-03 21:58:43 EDT, URND@MUSICC.MARIST.EDU (Neal Daskal) writes: << I'd like to answer this on a web page, but I am concerned about the TSR-online police. So I went to http://www.tsrinc.com to check the policy and Netscape says "The server does not have a DNS entry." Is the tsrinc.com domain dead? Is there currently a good place online to get a copy of the online/copyright policy. >> That was probably a temporary problem with your browser or with your ISP -- I have on occasion gotten similar messages when attempting to access "yahoo.com". My suggestion is to try again -- as far as I know, TSR's Web site is still there. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:36:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gareth: a Mystaran Buddha? In a message dated 97-07-04 13:39:21 EDT, you write: << And remember that Gareth is "returned from the Vortex". Could he be an Old One? Could he be one of those Immortals who were absorbed by Blackballs or drawn into the Vortex after they succeeded twice in reaching the high hierarchy of immortality? Could he be Sinbad, whose origins are unclear to us? Or Thanatos, who's playing behind the scenes for the Old Ones know what twisted reason? >> IIRC, Gareth has thus far mostly made his (its?) presence known in Sind (all my stuff is boxed to move, so I can't check any of this; correct me if I'm wrong, please). Now, Sind is supposed to be the Mystaran equivalent of India, correct? Prior, Sind has pretty much been shown to have a general "Hindu" style Immortal structure, with a smattering of various Mystic Cloisters that really weren't all that terribly well defined. The one thing that was missing was a Mystaran Buddha, or any real indication of the existence of Bodhisatvas (those who could pass on to Nirvana but remain behind to help others reach enlightenment). Perhaps the "Vortex" Gareth refers to would be a point "Beyond Limbo" in Sindhi Mythology (Limbo being the plane where Mystaran souls go en route to their Final Reward). So then, you would have the normal Sindhi mythic structure of the soul going to Limbo, encountering the Vortex beyond which is Nirvana, and having failed to achieve state of Karma high enough, the soul would be reincarnated to Mystara for another life cycle. Now enters Gareth, the Mystaran Buddha, who attained Nirvana *during his lifetime* and returned to aid others in achieving this state; he of course returns as an Immortal. Now, the MOrient group has developed Rohindhartha for their version of MIndia, but his focus is on Undead rather than Reincarnation and Enlightenment. Perhaps Gareth could be used in such a manner, as the Canonical MBuddha... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:07:29 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion > > Bruce Heard wrote a revised set of rules for Dominions in the Known World > Grimoire articles in Dragon magazine a while back. I don't recall the > exact issue numbers offhand, but I can get them for you. There were > something like 4 or 5 of them. > > He basically started the series by revising the costs for retainers, > etc., that were given in the Rules Cyclopedia, and changing the gold > standard in the Dominion rules to a more realistic economic structure for > a feudal world. Other articles included size and makeup of dominions, > changes in dominion population over time, military makeup, etc. All in > all, very good material. IMO, they are far better and more realistic than > the rules established in the Cyclopedia. If any of the characters in any > of the campaigns I've run over the years had ever made it to high enough > levels, I'd have used these revised rules. :) > Hey Bruce... It's any way to get this material, I'm very interested but I Haven't access to the Olds Dragon magazines here in Argentina... - -- Sebastian Quiles ================ Universidad de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:20:09 +0300 (GMT) From: sq7s@dc.uba.ar (Sebastian Quiles) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion > 2. gold vs goods: it's stated in Master and Companion rules that not the > whole income of the dominion comes in gold pieces, but only 10-50% of it, > the rest being made up of trading goods, cattle and minerals. Ok, the point > is (as my players always say): what do i do with 200.000 cows??? That's to > say: how can be those "trading goods" handled to earn more cash? I > understand this was a trick in order not to enrich too much the PCs, but > it's frustrating to know that you've got goods for a value of 200.000 gp and > cannot use them. I was thinking of using rules for merchants as proposed in > Gaz11 and Gaz9, but i'll have to calculate the amount of "stocks" and > "wagons" for the goods, and it's not an easy task. I have made a Rule for these goods... U can use it only to construct things, if U whant to build a 30.000 gp tower U can use 30.000 of the minerals and cows to feed the pawns, but U MUST pay a 10% in efective cash to pay somes obligatory costs... example: U want to build a 30K tower, U can pay 30K on goods AND 3K on golden pieces.... OR U can pay 15K on goods AND 16.500 gp (15.000 + 1.500) so when the player will be finish to contsruct his castle he will be incentivated to continjue building (Walls, Roads, Keeps, etc..) unless he wish to loses this values... > >levels, I'd have used these revised rules. :) > > I knew about these things, but i've never gotten my hands on the books. I > know this is a big task, but if you've got spare time and the will to do it > (and this is the main thing, basically ;)), could you please write the info > on the PC and send them to me, Cthul? I could also put them on my webpage to > everyone else's joy and relief. > Thanx for reading. > > DM > > I WANT a copy too... - -- Sebastian Quiles ================ Universidad de Buenos Aires ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 04:10:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Wassellj@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion In a message dated 04/07/97 21:25:49, it was written: << I knew about these things, but i've never gotten my hands on the books. I >know this is a big task, but if you've got spare time and the will to do it >(and this is the main thing, basically ;)), could you please write the info >on the PC and send them to me, Cthul? I could also put them on my webpage to >everyone else's joy and relief. 1.) I've started to compile the infos by Bruce, the infos of the RC, and some ideas of mine into a word-file. I'm not finished, but I could send the version -4.0 to you, BUT 2.) I'm not quite sure, what the legal status is, I'm definitly sure, that I'm allowed to send it to you personally, but I don't think that I should post it to the list, and I'm sure that you shouldn't put it on your web-page without express permission by Bruce. Bruce? 3.) I would be quite interested in all the Mailing-List people's input, especially Bruce's, so I'll ask him about sending it to you! But then again, didn't Leroy say, that attachments work badly with the list? 4.) I'm planning to work on it again, but can't say, when I will have enough time. And to say it again, it is NOT finished. >> I would be interested in the information that you have at this point. Discussing it with other people we all remember the information in those issues of Dragon, but no-one has a copy. Getting copies of particular back-issues is a nightmare. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 15:34:35 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion At 09.45 04/07/97 +0200, you wrote: > >I knew about these things, but i've never gotten my hands on the books. I >know this is a big task, but if you've got spare time and the will to do it >(and this is the main thing, basically ;)), could you please write the info >on the PC and send them to me, Cthul? I could also put them on my webpage to >everyone else's joy and relief. I think putting that info on your web page would be copyright infringment (STOP! I used the "forbidden word" "copyright", but this doesn't mean that we'll have to start a new copyright thread :). Moreover TSR started putting some old Dragon Magazine articles on their web page, nothing about Mystara is there yet, but Bruce told me : "I think eventually that material will find its way to the TSR site. Time is a problem since there only is one person running that site." So, just wait and hope :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 21:58:51 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gareth and Etienne (was: Mark of Amber) At 08.21 04/07/97 +0200, you wrote: > >Uh.. dunno really. Haaskinz is a good fellow and he knows that Etienne could >best any other Glantrian mage. So, since the High Master of the Great School >of Magic should be the most powerful wizard in Glantri, Harald will >undoubtly agree to give the seat back to Etienne. I don't see him so >power-hungry as other lords are... and consider also that he is a memeber of >the Brotherhood of the Radiance, and that Rad has power over it, too. I agree with you, Marco. >Wait ! Wait! Kol is a kobold!!! I know that there are deformed shadowelves >that could resemble kobolds, but hey man, this is not really the case :) > It's G:KoM (the AD&D boxed set) that states that Kol is a Shadow Elf. I don't like this, but, after all, I don't own G:KoM... :) >I still think that Gareth is up to now the more intriguing and unexplicable >mystery that TSR left us, together with Gentleman Caller's masterplan, but >that's another story (and another campaign world...) :) What about Rafiel and his Chamber of the Spheres ? :) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 10:46:07 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] Getting Dragon Articles Online (Was: Mechanics of Running a Dominion) At 03:34 PM 7/4/97 +0200, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > [...snip...] >Moreover TSR started putting some old Dragon Magazine articles on their web >page, nothing about Mystara is there yet, but Bruce told me : "I think >eventually that material will find its way to the TSR site. Time is a >problem since there only is one person running that site." >So, just wait and hope :-) Bruce: Is this true? There's only one "webmaster" for TSR (or was only one. I guess there's at least two now -- one at WotC and one at TSR). Do you know if he/she would be interested in getting any help? I mean, if the delay in getting /any/ stuff up is a simple case of "so much HTML to do and not enough time to do it all in..." perhaps using 'volunteer work' would be a worthwhile idea. I'm /sure/ a lot of RPG'ers who have access to the info and also do HTML would be willing to pitch in just to make the stuff available to others. Just a thought... Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 14:12:59 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > I'd be interested in knowing what Dragon Issues those were too. When > you find out could you zap those number my way too? The Dragon "Known World Economics" issues were 187, 189, 190, and 191. #187 covers revised prices for dominion retainers, and revised tax information. #189 covers dominion size and population. #190 is population growth, as well as dominion resources, and #191 covers military of dominions. :) Hope this helps. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:13:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Getting Dragon Articles Online (Was: Mechanics of Running a Jenni A. M. Merrifield pontificated: > > Do you know if he/she would be interested in getting any help? I mean, > if the delay in getting /any/ stuff up is a simple case of "so much > HTML to do and not enough time to do it all in..." perhaps using > 'volunteer work' would be a worthwhile idea. A while back one of the TSR rep was asking for people to proofread the old modules that they are putting up on the web, so appreantly they are getting some help with that. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:13:16 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Herath On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 "John W. Mangrum" wrote: >Greetings all, I'm brand-spanking-new to the mailing list and I have a >question: has anyone here put much thought towards Herath? I'd love to >know what anyone has to say; I played a Herathian for a while, and I >always regretted that Herath didn't get more ink. Hi John, welcome to the list. Have you read the Savage Coast novel The Black Vessel? One of its principal characters is a Herathian mage. It's a good book, and I like the perspective it gives of the Savage Coast. As far as I know there isn't a great deal of interest (here on this list - - correct me if I'm wrong) in the Savage Coast, but I could be considered one of the more interested. My web page (shameless plug: www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1413) has a very small narrative built into it using some SC characters from The Black Vessel, but otherwise nothing new for the SC. Anyhow, I am interested in doing some development of the Savage Coast. The tricky bit is, what would we do? Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:29:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Herath I am interested in the Savage Coast, but I just don't get it. I am under the impression that if you travel to the Savage Coast, you become afflicted with the red curse. Then you must remain on the Savage Coast, or bad things will happen to you. I think the Lupins and the Rakasta are cool, but I don't even know if they could travel to Karameikos,(interesting: A Lupin Were-hunter). Could someone please explain to me what happens when you venture to the Savage Coast, and if I'm correct about the fact that If you go there, there is no coming back? Thanks - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:56:36 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Savage Coast (was: Herath) At 02.29 07/07/97 -0400, Ambyrus wrote: > I think the Lupins and the Rakasta are cool, but I don't >even know if they could travel to Karameikos,(interesting: A Lupin >Were-hunter). In my previous campaign one of my players actually used a rakasta defender of Pax Bellanica that had traveled from Bellayne to the Known World to escape some embarassing assassination attempts from the brothers and uncles of a female rakasta of noble origins he had had an affaire with... Finally he arrived in Darokin and earned himself a reputation as swashbuckler and great expert of martial arts (he had torasta as general skill -proficiency). He integrated well in the group and was really fun to play for the player, so i think it is possible to have someone from Savage Coast to use in the old world: the only thing u need is a good cause to place him there. > Could someone please explain to me what happens when you >venture to the Savage Coast, and if I'm correct about the fact that If you go >there, there is no coming back? Thanks >-Ambyrus Ok, basically the thing is: after 1009 and the week of no magic, the Red Curse (previously confined to the Savage Baronies) spread to all the Savage Coast (excluding Jibarů, part of Herath and Wallara Tribal Lands IIRC). This caused much more people to become Afflicted and much more Inheritors to pop out. Basically what happens when you travel to a zone affected with the Red Curse is that if u stay there for too much time (don't remember it offhand but it's either one week time or one day per Con point) you become afflicted by the Curse, gaining a Legacy. Then, when u leave the land you retain the use of the Legacy for one day per Constitution point, and after this time the Legacy "burst out" and you cannot use it anymore... unless you return to the Savage Coast. Remember that when u become afflicted u loose one point from one of the characteristics, and this loss remains even if u travel outside the Savage Coast and loose your Legacy... So, basically u could travel to other foreign lands, but there you wouldn't have the legacies for use... Remember also that the cinnabryl is poisoning outside the Savage Coast and it drains Con points... DM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:03:40 +0300 From: "NOSTRADAMUS" Subject: [Mystara] OPINIONS I'M THINKING OF USING THE MAP EDITOR OF THE HEROES OF MIGHT AND MAGIC II(THE COMPUTER GAME).WE USUALLY PLAY THE ADVENTURES ON A COMPUTER BASIS SO THIS COULD BE A LOT EASIER FOR ME SINCE ALL OF MY ARCHIVES ARE PLACED IN MY HARD DRIVE.WHAT DO U THINK ABOUT IT? - ------------------------------------ mess with the best-die like the rest ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 11:49:12 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Herath Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 "John W. Mangrum" wrote: > >Greetings all, I'm brand-spanking-new to the mailing list and I have a > >question: has anyone here put much thought towards Herath? I'd love to > >know what anyone has to say; I played a Herathian for a while, and I > >always regretted that Herath didn't get more ink. > > Hi John, welcome to the list. > > Have you read the Savage Coast novel The Black Vessel? One of its > principal characters is a Herathian mage. It's a good book, and I like > the perspective it gives of the Savage Coast. > Cripes. That dang book has been sitting in one of my "read these" piles. Now I'll have to bump it to the top of the list.... J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:38:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Herath On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > I am interested in the Savage Coast, but I just don't get it. I am under > the impression that if you travel to the Savage Coast, you become afflicted > with the red curse. Then you must remain on the Savage Coast, or bad things > will happen to you. I think the Lupins and the Rakasta are cool, but I don't > even know if they could travel to Karameikos,(interesting: A Lupin > Were-hunter). Well, there are both Rakasta and Lupins outside of the Savage Coast. Lupins live in some numbers in Glantri, where they fight a losing battle against the many werecreatures there; Bruce Heard has also written an article on the Lupins that should hopefully be in the upcoming issue of Dragon Magazine. I believe he mentioned something about Norwold Malamutes (northern Lupins). Rakasta can be found, among other places, on the Thanegioth Archipelago, as well as in copius numbers on the second moon of Mystara, Patera. I have a theory that I'm developing that places some small amount of them in Sind (where they migrated to the Savage Coast from). > Could someone please explain to me what happens when you venture to the > Savage Coast, and if I'm correct about the fact that If you go there, > there is no coming back? The original conception of the Savage Coast had it that the seed of Cinnabar in the soil of the SC would only gradually infect one over a period of time- and a long time at that- at which point one would either need to begin using Cinnabryl (undepleted) in order to stave off the effects of the poison, or else leave the Savage Coast in order to be purged of the effects (which would return when one went back to the SC, after a period of time). Outsiders were poisoned by direct contact with undepleted Cinnabryl. I'm not entirely sure how the Red Curse works since the changeover to AD&D, but I know that it does affect you and gives you abilities (originally only gained through ingestion of cinnabryl directly into the body). I think that you must remain in the Savage Coast now, or at least have direct access to some type of Cinnabryl, in order to survive away from the region. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:59:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) AVENGER: New to Mystara is the avenger.They are very much like paladins, except everything is perverted. They are chaotic evil and love to spread doom. Basically, this is the most fun character out there, but you need to watch out, because like the paladin, a drop in the tyranny and mass hysteria and you will be sweeping your ashes off the floor from your dark Immortal's wrath. Recommendation: If you're the kind of player that wants to kill everything in sight, or if you just like to cause problems with the group, this bugger is for you. Does anyone else think that this kind of stuff should be stopped?! I would never allow a player to be such a pain! This kind of thing ruins adventures. He/she would kill important NPCs and just mess everything up. This kind of chaos destroys campaigns! If a player thinks that it's fun to kill everyone he sees, then he/she shouldn't be role-playing. He/she should be seeing a psychologist! Please gimme some feedback. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:20:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Meks Has anyone any thoughts on the origin of Meks? They are tall metallic constructs who were created long ago by an ancient long dead race of sorcerers. The meks were mostly used as bodyguards and most of them resemble their masters (insectlike). They are quite powerful 11-16 HD and immune to all spells except cold based spells (which slow them) and Disintegrate. Who created these things? IIRC, many have been mentioned as planar encounters (in immortal adventures and the like). I think it is most likely that the said race of Sorcerers originated from an outer plane, but probably dominated several, thus spreading their servants throughout the inner and outer planes. Why did they die? How can such a powerful Race be totally destroyed? Only by something more powerful? (ie. the immortals, though thats beginning to sound like a cliche) Could there still be some left of these Insectlike beings? What were their role in the history of the multiverse? Were they involved in the elemental wars? Or were they gone long before that? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 22:44:51 -0300 From: Victor Caminha Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks At 18:20 07/07/97 +0200, you wrote: >Has anyone any thoughts on the origin of Meks? > Hmm thats a good question :)) Just to drop 3 hypothesis that come to me.. 1) I saw the meks a bit like a golem with some direction through tecnology..no i am not saying they are robots :) Perhaps some kind of blackmore_tech/magic mix 2) A remnant of the the Adaptors who perhaps tried to colonize mystara and failed (imortal interventon?) 3) What about the Horde? If the elemental wars were involved (though i truly dont know what it is..) pehaps a gift of this race to the human or any prime plane race who helped them in their wars...the hordes have an insectoid appearance and are much older than humankind if i am correct Sorry the rambling..just some out-of-lurking ideas []s Victor Caminha "Receive the bounty of your hero's deed Tainting thy life by the gift of the dead Eternally running from a priestly bead Unable to bear the Orb in your head You'll walk in the darkness so alluring Without Hope to cleanse your sin Away from the joy of the living Forever to serve your Twin" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:51:17 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] Where You Can Stick Your Rakasta (was: Herath) Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One meandered fecklessly... > > I think the Lupins and the Rakasta are cool, but I don't > > even know if they could travel to Karameikos,(interesting: A Lupin > > Were-hunter). > > Lupins live in some numbers in Glantri, where they fight a losing battle > against the many werecreatures there; I have always placed a fair number of Lupins in Karameikos, warring against the werewolves in the dark, Romanianesque forests. But, then again, I have always emphasized the gothic, dark, horrific aspects of the Karameikos wilderness. When the Ravenloft setting came out I said "Gee, that looks familiar." > Rakasta can be found, among other places, on the Thanegioth Archipelago, > as well as in copius numbers on the second moon of Mystara, Patera. I > have a theory that I'm developing that places some small amount of them > in Sind (where they migrated to the Savage Coast from). When I first got into Mystara and OD&D (after many years of already playing AD&D) one of the things that really caught my imagination were the Rakasta, though I am not sure why (they're just cat-people). Without much reference material available, I made up my own stuff on them. I made them a nomadic people who wandered the plains of Darokin, with some ranging into northern Thyatis, as well as a relatively fair number of them in the low lands of Glantri, as well as in the plateau/plains northwest of Glantri. There were also isolated bands of them wandering the Ethengar plains, avoiding the natives. When the Princess Ark redefined the Rakasta, I simply like what I had better, so I kept it. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@support.lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:37:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) Keep in mind that the "Avenger" was written for D&D, not for AD&D. Thus, while he is required to be of chaotic alignment, he is not required to be chaotic evil. The AD&D counterpart of the Avenger would be the Defender serving a chaotic Immortal. I would agree that a player whose ethos requires him to be truly evil and/or mindlessly destructive would be a pain in the rear. But a character who takes control of rather than destroying undead and who befriends rather than kills monsters (to cite two of his more interesting abilities) could be rather amusing. Needless to say, a party that contains a paladin should not contain an avenger and vice versa. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 21:21:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > Who created these things? IIRC, many have been mentioned as planar > encounters (in immortal adventures and the like). I think it is most > likely that the said race of Sorcerers originated from an outer plane, but > probably dominated several, thus spreading their servants throughout the > inner and outer planes. I've always thought about making them the creations of the Egg of Coot and his minions (from the Blackmoor era DA series of modules). Another thought might be to have them be the creations of the Pyrithians (the race from which the Emerondans are descended). Recall that they use insects and plantlike weapons, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 22:40:09 -0800 From: NICHOLAS A HUDSON Subject: [Mystara] Re:Meks According to the Companion Set description, meks can look like objects other than insects. I have module IM3, The Best of Intentions, or something like that, and there is one segment where the characters come to a plane where meks have run amok. Their master issused the command "Avenge my death" just before dying. However, the meks were unsure who the master meant, so to be safe, they started killing anything that moved. The module describes the meks as looking like giant robots from Japanese animation, so I think that was probably the impetus for meks (meka is a Japanese transliteration of machine, and is used to describe anything high-tech). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:32:48 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > Has anyone any thoughts on the origin of Meks? > I have written a quite long story about the meks and their fool masters. Maybe, if someone is interested, I can post a summary. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:47:47 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) At 23.37 07/07/97 -0400, Kaviyd wrote: >Keep in mind that the "Avenger" was written for D&D, not for AD&D. Thus, >while he is required to be of chaotic alignment, he is not required to be >chaotic evil. The AD&D counterpart of the Avenger would be the Defender >serving a chaotic Immortal. Couldn't have said it better :) >I would agree that a player whose ethos requires him to be truly evil and/or >mindlessly destructive would be a pain in the rear. But a character who >takes control of rather than destroying undead and who befriends rather >than kills monsters (to cite two of his more interesting abilities) could >be rather amusing. Needless to say, a party that contains a paladin should >not contain an avenger and vice versa. I completely agree with the first part of your sentence. However i can assure u that a paladin and an avenger CAN co-exist inside a party, provided that the paladin isn't excessively single minded and obsessed with law and the avenger isn't utterly evil and treacherous. IMC the two types lived and fought near one another for over five years, and they were cousins (in the game, i mean)! At the end the Paladin founded his barony in the Isle of Dawn and the Avenger went to live with him, doing a little scheming behind his back (of course). BTW, this brings to my mind an issue i've never fully understood: why should a D&D Paladin renounce to his exalted status and become a normal Fighter when he becomes the Ruler of a dominion (as per Companion Rules, Player's Book)? Could someone explain this to me? I've always let the PC remain Paladin even if he reigned cause i didn't see a logic in that rule (if there ever was...) DM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:07:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > I have written a quite long story about the meks and their fool masters. > Maybe, if someone is interested, I can post a summary. sure :) Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 04:09:54 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: [Mystara] AD&D Priest Heyas, since I play Mystara in AD&D I ran into a small problem. What spheres do Immortals give their priest access too, or do they just give spells when needed? Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #107 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #108 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, July 10 1997 Volume 02 : Number 108 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 21:01:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Priest On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Deathwatch wrote: > since I play Mystara in AD&D I ran into a small problem. What spheres do > Immortals give their priest access too, or do they just give spells when > needed? Bruce Pierpont did a series of writeups on the Immortals and their Specialty Priests a while back on the list. You should be able to find what he wrote on Leroy's homepage for the list, or any number of other web pages by list members: Shawn Stanley, Herve Musseau, etc... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 00:22:24 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Diego Calugi wrote: > > > I have written a quite long story about the meks and their fool masters. > > Maybe, if someone is interested, I can post a summary. > > sure :) I'd loke a copy also. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 00:14:21 -0400 From: Jay Herrington Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion > > Bruce Heard wrote a revised set of rules for Dominions in the Known World > Grimoire articles in Dragon magazine a while back. I don't recall the > exact issue numbers offhand, but I can get them for you. There were > something like 4 or 5 of them. I would like a copy of those also. Jay John7999@frontiernet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:04:34 +0800 (WST) From: Jason MURPHY Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Jay Herrington wrote: > > > > Bruce Heard wrote a revised set of rules for Dominions in the Known World > > Grimoire articles in Dragon magazine a while back. I don't recall the > > exact issue numbers offhand, but I can get them for you. There were > > something like 4 or 5 of them. > > > I would like a copy of those also. > Jay > John7999@frontiernet.net > Oooh oohh yes please. Me too. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 15:51:48 +0200 From: Tomás Sánchez Subject: [Mystara] A brief introduction Greetings . I'm 24 years old and i live in Spain. I'm currently studying computer engineering and it keeps me really occupied. I've been readying you all for a long time and i've enjoyed it too much. This past weeks i've seen the rate of digests growth greatly reduced and this has made me take the firm decision of supporting the list contributing with my experience both as a player and as DM. Tomás Sánchez deckard@encomix.es ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:56:21 +0200 From: Tomás Sánchez Subject: [Mystara] Missing Digests Some of the listed digests - v01.n318, v01.n319, v01.n320 and v01.n321 - can't be retrieved. Did someone manage to get them ? If you did, please send them to me to the address below. Thanks in advance. Tomás Sánchez deckard@encomix.es ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:15:49 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks At 13:32 7-07-97 +0200, you wrote: >Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >> >> Has anyone any thoughts on the origin of Meks? >> >I have written a quite long story about the meks and their fool masters. >Maybe, if someone is interested, I can post a summary. >-Diego Yeah, post it. Should be quite interesting. Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-08 13:56:34 EDT, DM writes: << ... At the end the Paladin founded his barony in the Isle of Dawn and the Avenger went to live with him, doing a little scheming behind his back (of course) >> Cute... Did they live happily forever after and have many children? :) (Okay, that would be bad since they are cousins -- gotta watch 'em paladin-types). <> Actually, there could be a reason for this. Paladins derive their powers from faith and service to an Immortal or a temple. This means they must devote their lives, thoughts, and all of their material possessions to such (including any land and their subjects). When they retain rulership over dominions and their people, they effectively end these *most exalted* relationships with their spiritual suzerains. The result is that they lose their powers and become plain fighters. They still remain truly benevolent beings though... Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:17:32 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Getting Dragon Articles Online (Was: Mechanics of Running a In a message dated 97-07-06 03:37:59 EDT, John Yu writes: << A while back one of the TSR rep was asking for people to proofread the old modules that they are putting up on the web, so appreantly they are getting some help with that. >> Still true. Go for it, folks! If you don't the lion share of the space will go to other popular game worlds. Bruce Heard There... Anything left? :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:16:48 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion In a message dated 97-07-04 22:48:22 EDT, Sebastian writes: << Hey Bruce... It's any way to get this material, I'm very interested but I Haven't access to the Olds Dragon magazines here in Argentina... >> Oops, here goes another one. Well, I guess this falls under the *scan it and paste it on the TSRInc site* (c/o Sean Reynolds), or on the AOL site of course. It would be nice indeed having all the material in one place. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:16:50 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion In a message dated 97-07-05 04:55:49 EDT, Wasselj writes: << 2.) I'm not quite sure, what the legal status is, I'm definitly sure, that I'm allowed to send it to you personally, but I don't think that I should post it to the list, and I'm sure that you shouldn't put it on your web-page without express permission by Bruce. Bruce? >> You're right, you should not copy and distribute the material directly, much less post it on a public forum, unless of course it's TSR/AOL or the TSRInc web site. Actually, to be accurate, permission to post this stuff anywhere else should come from TSR/WotC legal dept. Not me -- although I wished! :) All this stuff legally belongs to my employer. << 3.) I would be quite interested in all the Mailing-List people's input, especially Bruce's, so I'll ask him about sending it to you! But then again, didn't Leroy say, that attachments work badly with the list? >> I believe he did. << 1.) I've started to compile the infos by Bruce, the infos of the RC, and some ideas of mine>> I'm curious about your ideas, Care to post a few here for general discussion? :) Thanks. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:16:43 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Getting Dragon Articles Online (Was: Mechanics of Running a Dom... In a message dated 97-07-05 14:18:46 EDT, Jenni writes: << Bruce: Is this true? There's only one "webmaster" for TSR (or was only one. I guess there's at least two now -- one at WotC and one at TSR). Do you know if he/she would be interested in getting any help? I mean, if the delay in getting /any/ stuff up is a simple case of "so much HTML to do and not enough time to do it all in..." perhaps using 'volunteer work' would be a worthwhile idea. I'm /sure/ a lot of RPG'ers who have access to the info and also do HTML would be willing to pitch in just to make the stuff available to others. >> [[sorry for the delay]] Yes, this is true. TSR-Lake Geneva only has one single (so-far), brave-hearted (always), level-minded (usually) guy who handles all that goes on the TSRInc web site, and some other issues on AOL. Redefining Virtual-Hercules! If you want to help out (scanning, proofing, etc), please email TSRInc@AOL.com (that's Sean Reynold's email address), and let him know that you are available. He'll explain in more detail how to proceed from there. Thanks & Good Gaming! :) Bruce Heard PS -- BTW, due to my present workload it's been difficult monitoring emails from this list. I must have missed questions addressed to me (???). If so and if no answer is coming forth, please email me directly with some reminder (Yo, Bruce, someone in Mystara-L has a question), or something like that, just to catch my attention. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:11:14 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) > Does anyone else think that this kind of stuff should be stopped?! are you saying there should be no evil characters in d&d? the game needs evil what fun would it be if every country was always at peace and no one had any problems > I would never allow a player to be such a pain! This kind of thing ruins > adventures. it depends on the adventure youre running when i play the dm usually gives a general alignment we should choose he might say choose anything from lawful good to true neutal but i have played in 2 evil campaigns one in mystara and one in ravenloft the dm made the adventure suitable for evil characters both were a lot of fun and a nice change of pace > He/she would kill important NPCs and just mess everything up. > This kind of chaos destroys campaigns! i think the campaign is always changing depending on what the pcs do a dm should know the beginning but not the end of the story roleplaying is more like a "choose your own adventure" book if a pc has a reason to kill a npc or a pc no matter how important he or she is you have to let them do what they want even if its not what you want players have no fun if you control their characters too > If a player thinks that it's fun to > kill everyone he sees, then he/she shouldn't be role-playing. chaotic evil doesnt mean you are a mindless being killing every living thing its more like this you put your own needs and goals above anyone elses and you accomplish these goals whatever way you want ex. you rob the only bank in your small town holding a dagger to the tellers throat threating him you take everyones life savings because you need to buy a boat to sail across the sea thats chaotic because you choose to break multiple laws even though you know its "wrong" and evil because you dont care about all the lives youre hurting you get what you want though > He/she should > be seeing a psychologist! Please gimme some feedback. > -Ambyrus how about if the dm roleplays someone like that should he or she be seeing a psychologist too? if so what do you do with thanatos, orcus, leptar, etc..... - --- -- --Crip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 23:27:57 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Priest At 21:01 8-07-97 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Deathwatch wrote: > >> since I play Mystara in AD&D I ran into a small problem. What spheres do >> Immortals give their priest access too, or do they just give spells when >> needed? > >Bruce Pierpont did a series of writeups on the Immortals and their >Specialty Priests a while back on the list. You should be able to find >what he wrote on Leroy's homepage for the list, or any number of other >web pages by list members: Shawn Stanley, Herve Musseau, etc... I've checked Shawns, and its very helpfull, but I do miss info on some immortals (like Valerias). Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 04:16:21 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion On Wed, 9 Jul 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-05 04:55:49 EDT, Wasselj writes: > > << 2.) I'm not quite sure, what the legal status is, I'm definitly sure, that > I'm allowed to send it to you personally, but I don't think that I should > post it to the list, and I'm sure that you shouldn't put it on your > web-page > without express permission by Bruce. Bruce? >> > > You're right, you should not copy and distribute the material directly, much > less post it on a public forum, unless of course it's TSR/AOL or the TSRInc > web site. Actually, to be accurate, permission to post this stuff anywhere > else should come from TSR/WotC legal dept. Not me -- although I wished! :) > All this stuff legally belongs to my employer. > I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong (someone official from TSR can correct me, no I don't care about the legal status of anything I've heard enough of it already, I only care if the follwing statement is correct, and nobody better start a damn copyright thread again!) ... Anyway...correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe TSR's net policy allows the posting and discussion of RULES ONLY on mailing lists and newsgroups otherwise none of us could really argue rules, neither could the AD&D list or rec.games.frp.dnd, and no one could run a Web/Email based AD&D game. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 04:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Priest On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Deathwatch wrote: > At 21:01 8-07-97 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > >On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Deathwatch wrote: > > > >> since I play Mystara in AD&D I ran into a small problem. What spheres do > >> Immortals give their priest access too, or do they just give spells when > >> needed? > > > >Bruce Pierpont did a series of writeups on the Immortals and their > >Specialty Priests a while back on the list. You should be able to find > >what he wrote on Leroy's homepage for the list, or any number of other > >web pages by list members: Shawn Stanley, Herve Musseau, etc... > > I've checked Shawns, and its very helpfull, but I do miss info on some > immortals (like Valerias). > I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm now up to Rathanos working through WotI alphabetically. So that's about 10 more to go. Then I get to start on the HW box, then random lesser Immortals. Should I repost the one's I've written before? I know I've had a few requests now. And of course include the new ones. I have a feeling that Valerias may wind up with a few PG/PG-13 jokes built into the abilities. (Like bonus proficiencies in Whip and Rope Use.) If you'd like something more tame let me know shortly, but this is the goddess of passion and love and all that. As always: If your children get these jokes ... ITS NOT OUR FAULT! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:30:47 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Slow Emails I sent four emails to Mystara-L yesterday noon and noticed only the last one made it through so far. Does this happen a lot? How long does it usually take for an email to reach everyone? How long should I wait before sending duplicates? Bruce Heard 7/10/97 -- 8:30 central. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:05:31 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Priest At 04:27 AM 7/10/97 -0400, StarHawk wrote: >I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm now up to Rathanos working >through WotI alphabetically. So that's about 10 more to go. Then I get >to start on the HW box, then random lesser Immortals. Good to hear that you're working on this! These were one of the best things to roll through the list at its start. (BTW: /Is/ This Bruce P? When did you become 'StarHawk'?) >Should I repost the one's I've written before? I know I've had a few >requests now. And of course include the new ones. You could if they've changed any. Otherwise, I belive their all currently available from the mailing list. You can get a help file that tells you how to get an index and any of the available files by sending a message with only the word 'help mystara-l' to (I believe) majordomo@lists.io.com. >I have a feeling that Valerias may wind up with a few PG/PG-13 jokes built >into the abilities. (Like bonus proficiencies in Whip and Rope Use.) If >you'd like something more tame let me know shortly, but this is the >goddess of passion and love and all that. Oh that's great! Go with it, I think that subtle jokes like this are the perfect touch in things like these. >As always: If your children get these jokes ... ITS NOT OUR FAULT! Ain't that the truth! Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:34:00 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Slow Emails At 09.30 10/07/97 -0400, Bruce Heard wrote: >I sent four emails to Mystara-L yesterday noon and noticed only the last one >made it through so far. Does this happen a lot? How long does it usually take >for an email to reach everyone? How long should I wait before sending >duplicates? I assure u they all went through, cause i've read them. This problem has been also reported by JW Mangrum (Albany), and so far Leroy has not explained it at all. All i can tell u is that eventually the e-mails arrive, so be patient Bruce :) I think u should wait maximum two days before sending duplicates (that's what i do, at least)... DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:20:54 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks Haavard R. Faanes wrote: <> First of all, the entry in the Master set 4th edition (DM's book) says that Meks were "created by a race of INHUMAN sorcerers" who died a long ago. Referring to this specific quote, we must then exclude the possibility that either the Blackmoorians (as Cthul and Victor Caminha suggested) or any other HUMAN race could have built them. Second thing is that these sorcerers are now extinct and that the meks are "huge metallic beings". We must therefore exclude the Pyrithians too, because they're not extinct (the Emerondians ARE Pyrithians: they've only renamed themselves after their new kingdom) and above all because they don't mess with anything "unnatural" (such as metallic constructs like meks): theirs is a druidic culture, and they "grow" monsters rather then construct them. [Oh, BTW, where do you think the Pyrithian Archipelago is located exactly? I was thinking about one of the moons of Vanya or Khoronus (Jupiter or Saturn)…] Third point is that the Horde (as Victor Caminha suggested) is not a plausible solution, because Hordes are not capable of mastering such a high level of technology. They are a strange lifeform of the elemental plane of Earth, a very powerful one, but not able to use magic as to be defined "a race of sorcerers". Also, as for the above mentioned races, they're not extinct. Victor also suggested the Adaptors were the Meks' creators and the possibility that Meks found on Mystara are the testimony of their attempt to colonize it in the early days. This could be the most intriguing and acceptable theory, was it not for the fact that the Adaptors too aren't extinct nor are they a race of sorcerers. Sorry if i've insisted a bit too much on this concept, but i'm only trying to stick to canon sources, i hope you'll understand… So who created the Meks, which (as Nicholas Hudson pointed out correctly) are nothing more than Japanese Mechas (btw, how tall is a Mek??)? Remember also that meks come out in many shapes that "resemble their creators": insects, lizards, giants, and many other creatures (Master set, DM's book). If we accept all these hints as true (and that's what i'm doing: i've never thought about the possibility of TSR folks lying at their readers), then we must conclude that Meks were created either by many different races (remember the different shapes of meks) or by a race of long dead and forgotten Metamorphs that probably originated in the Outer Planes (as IM3 hints). <> I think that the cause of their creators' doom is probably to be found inside their own society. A civil war of planar proportions, that's my take on it. Probably, the sorcerers were divided into two or more factions (like the Air and Fire Wizards on Old Alphatia, for example) and in their final attempt to annihilate the enemy factions, these wizards destroyed themselves and their whole race. It could be that the Meks were the Ultimate Weapon that some of them wanted to use to destroy any opposing side, but probably at the end of the war every faction had its own Meks, and this resulted in a no-winner conflict, during which they eliminated each other because their strength was equal. The remaining Meks in the outer and inner planes (and in Mystara) are very powerful golems that testify the epic proportions of this cross-planar war. There is however another possible scenario to consider. Not all the sorcerers of this race have died, but some of them, the wisest and most foresighted, anticipating the outcome of the conflict, have gone into a state of suspended animation inside "sleeping chambers" buried deep beneath the earth of Mystara (considered far away enough to avoid being noticed by their enemies), leaving meks on the surface to guard their sleep. They planned to awaken in a couple of centuries or so, but unfortunately something went wrong (maybe the Carnifex Incident or the GRoF altered their artifacts or their magic) and they remained imprisoned in their sleeping chambers, unable to exit by themselves. Or maybe some awry magical effect has altered the timer of their chambers, and the awakening date has been postponed of a couple of millennia. Whichever of the two solutions is chosen, this is an interesting campaign hook that could be exploited by everyone: either the sorcerers can be awakened by some unaware adventurer or archeologist, or the Awakening is near or it has already occurred (during the Week of No Magic) and now some of these sorcerers roam Mystara trying to understand what happened and to rally a squadron of Meks to use in their conquer of the world… Also, since there are so many different meks on Mystara, there's also the possibility that someone has studied the inactive meks during the centuries and has managed to build other new meks (the Egg of Coot might be one as Cthulhudrew suggested; the Adaptors and Oards are other possible candidates, as well as any other powerful sorcerer -like Gargantua IMC- or race well versed in technology). DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:47:41 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) At 13.16 09/07/97 -0400, Bruce Heard wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-08 13:56:34 EDT, DM writes: > ><< ... At the end the Paladin founded his barony in the Isle of Dawn > and the Avenger went to live with him, doing a little scheming behind his > back (of course) >> > >Cute... Did they live happily forever after and have many children? :) >(Okay, that would be bad since they are cousins -- gotta watch 'em >paladin-types). Actually that's not really what happened... During one of the adventures, while the good ole paladin was out to save the world for the hundred and twenty fourth time, the Avenger ruled in his absence, then entered in league with the Court Mage and they both stole the treasure and sailed for an unknown destination... The Paladin is still trying to recover his treasure (more than 4 years of reign!!) and to test his new sword on his cousin's neck... ;) >Paladins derive their powers from faith and service to an Immortal or a temple. >This means they must devote their lives, thoughts, and all of their material >possessions to such (including any land and their subjects). When they retain >rulership over dominions and their people, they effectively end these *most >exalted* relationships with their spiritual suzerains. The result is that they lose >their powers and become plain fighters. They still remain truly benevolent >beings though... What happens then when they leave the dominion to go adventuring again? Do they become Paladin again only for that lapse of time? In this case, every Paladin should be considered only a warrior when inside his dominion and returns a Paladin when he goes out? (hey, darn vampire! Come here! I'm out of the boundaries of my county and now i can cure myself and turn you! I'll make you sweat blood, by the Holy Ixion!) ;) DM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:11:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Slow Emails TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > I sent four emails to Mystara-L yesterday noon and noticed only the last one > made it through so far. Does this happen a lot? How long does it usually take > for an email to reach everyone? How long should I wait before sending > duplicates? > > Bruce Heard > 7/10/97 -- 8:30 central. I got all 4 last night and this one at 11:00 eastern. I think generally the posting make it through sooner or later. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:49:38 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Slow Emails Bruce: TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > > I sent four emails to Mystara-L yesterday noon and noticed only the last one > made it through so far. Does this happen a lot? How long does it usually take > for an email to reach everyone? How long should I wait before sending > duplicates? I got all four emails through the list yesterday. If you haven't got them yet, then it's probably something at your mail server's end (i.e., AOL rather than IO) Jenni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:41:44 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Priest On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, StarHawk wrote: > I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm now up to Rathanos working > through WotI alphabetically. So that's about 10 more to go. Then I get > to start on the HW box, then random lesser Immortals. C'mon! Pick it up! You've still got S&P writeups to do for them! ;) BTW, if you'd like some help with the lessers, I could do a writeup for Forsetta and/or Cretia... though you do such a better job. :) > I have a feeling that Valerias may wind up with a few PG/PG-13 jokes built > into the abilities. (Like bonus proficiencies in Whip and Rope Use.) If > you'd like something more tame let me know shortly, but this is the > goddess of passion and love and all that. Armor: Leather or Studded Leather only. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:23:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > First of all, the entry in the Master set 4th edition (DM's book) > says that Meks were "created by a race of INHUMAN sorcerers" who died a long > ago. Referring to this specific quote, we must then exclude the possibility > that either the Blackmoorians (as Cthul and Victor Caminha suggested) or any > other HUMAN race could have built them. Not so, my friend. I mentioned that I have them built by the Egg of Coot, who is rumored to be an alien being. Few know exactly what he/it looks like, nor do any know where he/it is from. All that is known is that it arrived about 20 years before events depicted in DA1, and that it used its massive magical powers to raise the peninsula that it's home is located on. That, and it seems intent on world domination. :) My take is that the EGG is not of this Earth (or Mystara). > Second thing is that these sorcerers are now extinct and that the > meks are "huge metallic beings". We must therefore exclude the Pyrithians > too, because they're not extinct (the Emerondians ARE Pyrithians: they've > only renamed themselves after their new kingdom) and above all because they > don't mess with anything "unnatural" (such as metallic constructs like > meks): theirs is a druidic culture, and they "grow" monsters rather then > construct them. That's a good point, though it's possible that something destroyed the Pyrithians in recent memory, and only the Emerondans survive (to make a distinction between them, as they are both very different cultures now.) Perhaps it is only after Landfall that the Emerondan/Pyrithians became the druidic culture they are currently. Certainly, the warlike nature of their space Pyrithian ancestors doesn't seem well suited to the traditional Druidic society- though it could be a more "real world" one). > [Oh, BTW, where do you think the Pyrithian Archipelago is located exactly? I > was thinking about one of the moons of Vanya or Khoronus (Jupiter or Saturn)…] I was thinking more like the nearest real world asteroid belt- whatever it's called... > Also, since there are so many different meks on Mystara, there's > also the possibility that someone has studied the inactive meks during the > centuries and has managed to build other new meks (the Egg of Coot might be > one as Cthulhudrew suggested; the Adaptors and Oards are other possible > candidates, as well as any other powerful sorcerer -like Gargantua IMC- or > race well versed in technology). As to other possibilities, one of Bruce's Princess Ark articles mentions that, to the east of the N'djatwa lands in Vulcania, there live powerful metallic creations that spend the days beating one another to a pulp. Not much else is mentioned about this, and I have always taken it to mean that was the land of the Earthshakers (in large part due to the Gargantoid entry, also by Bruce, in AC10: Wonderful Inventions). Perhaps it isn't the land of Earthshakers, but of Meks? Or perhaps the ice gnomes in the region built their Earthshakers in imitation (scientific imitation) of the powerful magical Meks that shared their southern lands? And the Earthshakers are at war with the Meks of Vulcania- hence their constant combats? And what about the airships like Haldemar's that the N'djatwa mentioned seeing in the same region? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:35:10 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion Subj: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion Date: 97-07-09 14:17:41 EDT (DUPLICATE COPY #1) From: TSR Bruce To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sent on: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 In a message dated 97-07-04 22:48:22 EDT, Sebastian writes: << Hey Bruce... It's any way to get this material, I'm very interested but I Haven't access to the Olds Dragon magazines here in Argentina... >> Oops, here goes another one. Well, I guess this falls under the *scan it and paste it on the TSRInc site* (c/o Sean Reynolds), or on the AOL site of course. It would be nice indeed having all the material in one place. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:13:59 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Bad News Bad news, folks. For all those who were hoping to see the projected level changes of the Glantrian nobles that I mentioned a while back, well... it seems I have misplaced the paper I wrote those figures down on, possibly even threw it out a while back... :( I'll keep checking, but I thought I'd update you all, in case you were wondering what the hell was taking me so long to post it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:36:00 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion Subj: Re: [Mystara] Mechanics of Running a Dominion Date: 97-07-09 14:17:43 EDT (DUPLICATE COPY #1) From: TSR Bruce To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sent on: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 In a message dated 97-07-05 04:55:49 EDT, Wasselj writes: << 2.) I'm not quite sure, what the legal status is, I'm definitly sure, that I'm allowed to send it to you personally, but I don't think that I should post it to the list, and I'm sure that you shouldn't put it on your web-page without express permission by Bruce. Bruce? >> You're right, you should not copy and distribute the material directly, much less post it on a public forum, unless of course it's TSR/AOL or the TSRInc web site. Actually, to be accurate, permission to post this stuff anywhere else should come from TSR/WotC legal dept. Not me -- although I wished! :) All this stuff legally belongs to my employer. << 3.) I would be quite interested in all the Mailing-List people's input, especially Bruce's, so I'll ask him about sending it to you! But then again, didn't Leroy say, that attachments work badly with the list? >> I believe he did. << 1.) I've started to compile the infos by Bruce, the infos of the RC, and some ideas of mine>> I'm curious about your ideas, Care to post a few here for general discussion? :) Thanks. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:33:17 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) Subj: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) Date: 97-07-09 13:17:09 EDT (DUPLICATE COPY #1) From: TSR Bruce To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sent on: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 In a message dated 97-07-08 13:56:34 EDT, DM writes: << ... At the end the Paladin founded his barony in the Isle of Dawn and the Avenger went to live with him, doing a little scheming behind his back (of course) >> Cute... Did they live happily forever after and have many children? :) (Okay, that would be bad since they are cousins -- gotta watch 'em paladin-types). <> Actually, there could be a reason for this. Paladins derive their powers from faith and service to an Immortal or a temple. This means they must devote their lives, thoughts, and all of their material possessions to such (including any land and their subjects). When they retain rulership over dominions and their people, they effectively end these *most exalted* relationships with their spiritual suzerains. The result is that they lose their powers and become plain fighters. They still remain truly benevolent beings though... Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 19:15:06 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks 7Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > > Has anyone any thoughts on the origin of Meks? > This is what I wrote about meks and their masterssome years ago. The only informations available can be found in the master rules, in M5: Talons of Night (where a mek is guarding the Temple of Dawn) and in IM3: The Best of Intentions (where 30 meks are killing every lifeform in the outer plane of Pyx to obey the last order of their master). The main question is: who are the masters of the meks and how did they die? As DM suggested, they must be some kind of inhuman race, whose civilization came suddenly to an end. But why? IMHO Immortals didn't killed them as someone suggested: infact IM3 states that the Immortal Mazikeen is going to study some mek to research their origin (IIRC). So the Immortals know only a few informations about them, which means that they have never dealt with meks before. So, how did they die? This is my own version [What follows is all IMC]. STARLESS' SKY The outer plane of Starless is indeed a strange one. Its only planet (called Starless, too) hangs in the sky, surrounded by millions of miles of empty space. Not a single star can be seen from its surface and only a little weak and pale sun lights its wastes. On this lonely planet an ancient race of insect-like creatures acquired the spark of intelligence: they learnt to talk. Eons after they developed magical abilities. They manage to unite their whole world under an unique kingdom and they called themselves 'The Masters'. However, life on Starless was very hard: little water and many famines; few people and a lot of free space. Magic was the only way to survive the rigours of a "weary" world. GOODBYE, BLUE SKY But the fate of Starless was already written in the stars. Its little sun was burning out; year after year its pale light faded away... The Masters, with the most powerful of all their spells, created big caves under the surface of Starless, summoning big fire elementals to warm their bones. Like bears, the powerful Masters go into hibernation in the depths of their own cruel world. And so they died one after one, frozen while they were fighting for a piece of bread. GOODBYE, CRUEL WORLD But Pyx, the biggest hero of The Masters, knew that their magic could not help them. The solution to the problems of Starless was far away from it, somewhere in the darkness which surrounded it. Somehow Pyx intuited the existence of others plane of life, first among all the magic-users of his race. He roused some of his companions from their torpor and urged them to act! Magic was useless, and so they had to rely upon the mundane arts of technology. A few years before the last sunbeam hit the surface of Starless, some "point of flame" were seen rising and heading straight into the darkness. BEYOND THE HORIZON Pyx had managed to do it! He and his friends had built a new race, a new kind of servants: the Meks. On Starless nobody trusted them: "If even magic is useless, - they said - nothing can help us now". But he persisted in his opinion, and now he was traveling beyond the horizon of the place where he was born, with a dozen of companions and hundreds of meks... PYX WOZ HERE But their journey, their space odyssey, was long and difficult. During the trip many of his friends left his side to colonize nearer planets. But Pyx continued along his way, leaving meks in all the planets he could find. He ordered those meks to obey the natives of the planet, and he became soon a symbol of civilization. Infact he wanted to spread the knowledge of technology, which was in his opinion the key to a better life. Old by now, he settled in an outer plane (later this plane became one of the 24 planes of Mazikeen - See IM3), where he built a temple to house the informations needed to built the meks. He had fulfilled his fate and now he was waiting for the death to come. And he did die, but by the hand of a Draeden (see old Immortall rules - pag.38). This powerful lifeform entered the plane of Pyx, overcame nearly all the meks of Pyx and destroyed him and the informations in the temple. Why did it do this? Nobody knows, but many belive that the Dreaden wanted to stop the construction of meks. Why? Because they are DANGEROUS! COMFORTABLY NUMB The hope of Pyx for a better world, built around the work of the meks, died with him. The meks (only 30) which survived the attack of the Dreaden, destroyed all the lifeforms in the plane, willing to obey the last order of Pyx. But, what's happened to the meks of the campanions of Pix? After leaving Pyx, they reached empty worlds, where they built some colonies. Here, they just seat down, waiting fot their meks to do all the work. They didn't need friends or relatives anymore and so, years after years, the family ties became less and less important. After a few generations all the descendants of the first settlers were spending their lifes alone, surrounded by hundreds of miles of fields and woods managed by the meks themselves. In these world, everyone was as lonely as the "now frozen" Starless was alone in the black sky. Nobody was interested anymore in relationships and in this situation no coupling was possible. These "sons of Pyx's Dream" died alone, without an offspring, each surrounded by hundreds of meks who, after saving their lifes on Starless, had slowly killed them. Maybe the Dreaden was right... THE MEKS: The meks are the most perfect robots ever created. They were built by their masters to take care of them and to do all the hard work on their planet. Every mek was designed for a special task and was built with the form that suits better this task. For this reason they can look like many different animals or objects. Mek Bodyguard: Today these are the most common meks (see below). They are very resistent (AC -4, immune to fire, and so on) and strong. They are born to fight for protecting their master. They can even change their shape to offer a better protection (such as the mek in M5). Usually they can fly and swim, so that they can follow their master everywhere or pursue his enemies. They are very good fighter, but they aren't very intelligent. Mek Farmer: It is built to work in the fields. Usually it has the shape of a farm tractor. They are not intelligent and they never fight. Mek Technician: His task is to work in the factories. It looks like an humanoid with many arms. Some of them can repair or built others meks. Mek Miner: It works in the mines. Mek Supervisor: This is the most intelligent mek. They have the shape of a man and they usually control many less intelligent meks. They can direct the work in the fields or the production of a factory. Today there are only a few exemplaries of supervisors left, who are still running the old colonies! Since they are the only really intelligent meks, they are the only ones who can tell the true story of their masters. That's all. I have used a lot of my immagination. Maybe some of you will think that this story is a bit strange: it is! :) I hope you've enjoyed it. Any comments? - -Diego ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #108 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #109 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Friday, July 11 1997 Volume 02 : Number 109 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:34:09 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Getting Dragon Articles Online Subj: Re: [Mystara] Getting Dragon Articles Online (Was: Mechanics of Running a Dom... Date: 97-07-09 14:17:36 EDT From: TSR Bruce To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sent on: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 In a message dated 97-07-05 14:18:46 EDT, Jenni writes: << Bruce: Is this true? There's only one "webmaster" for TSR (or was only one. I guess there's at least two now -- one at WotC and one at TSR). Do you know if he/she would be interested in getting any help? I mean, if the delay in getting /any/ stuff up is a simple case of "so much HTML to do and not enough time to do it all in..." perhaps using 'volunteer work' would be a worthwhile idea. I'm /sure/ a lot of RPG'ers who have access to the info and also do HTML would be willing to pitch in just to make the stuff available to others. >> [[sorry for the delay]] Yes, this is true. TSR-Lake Geneva only has one single (so-far), brave-hearted (always), level-minded (usually) guy who handles all that goes on the TSRInc web site, and some other issues on AOL. Redefining Virtual-Hercules! If you want to help out (scanning, proofing, etc), please email TSRInc@AOL.com (that's Sean Reynold's email address), and let him know that you are available. He'll explain in more detail how to proceed from there. Thanks & Good Gaming! :) Bruce Heard PS -- BTW, due to my present workload it's been difficult monitoring emails from this list. I must have missed questions addressed to me (???). If so and if no answer is coming forth, please email me directly with some reminder (Yo, Bruce, someone in Mystara-L has a question), or something like that, just to catch my attention. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:58:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks >Not so, my friend. I mentioned that I have them built by the Egg of Coot, >who is rumored to be an alien being. I'd just like to re-point out that in Dave Arneson's original description of the "Egg of Coot" is a very humourous exaggeration of none other than that oldest coot of RPGs, E. Gary Gygax. :) >> [Oh, BTW, where do you think the Pyrithian Archipelago is located >>exactly? I was thinking about one of the moons of Vanya or Khoronus >(Jupiter or Saturn)…] >I was thinking more like the nearest real world asteroid belt- whatever >it's called... Don't forget, Damocles is home to an advanced civilization.. before it blows itself up and turns into the asteroid belt between MMars and MJupiter, anyway. (Hm... if the Pyrithians do live there, and did have Meks, could it be that the Mek-war was what blew up the planet?) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca Unofficial Official Keeper of the Unoffocial Official Timeline of Mystara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:11:53 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Priest At 04:27 10-07-97 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Deathwatch wrote: > >> At 21:01 8-07-97 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >> >On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Deathwatch wrote: >> > >> >> since I play Mystara in AD&D I ran into a small problem. What spheres do >> >> Immortals give their priest access too, or do they just give spells when >> >> needed? >> > >> >Bruce Pierpont did a series of writeups on the Immortals and their >> >Specialty Priests a while back on the list. You should be able to find >> >what he wrote on Leroy's homepage for the list, or any number of other >> >web pages by list members: Shawn Stanley, Herve Musseau, etc... >> >> I've checked Shawns, and its very helpfull, but I do miss info on some >> immortals (like Valerias). >> >I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm now up to Rathanos working >through WotI alphabetically. So that's about 10 more to go. Then I get >to start on the HW box, then random lesser Immortals. > >Should I repost the one's I've written before? I know I've had a few >requests now. And of course include the new ones. > >I have a feeling that Valerias may wind up with a few PG/PG-13 jokes built >into the abilities. (Like bonus proficiencies in Whip and Rope Use.) If >you'd like something more tame let me know shortly, but this is the >goddess of passion and love and all that. > >As always: If your children get these jokes ... ITS NOT OUR FAULT! Hehe...that would be nice (Both the repost and PG jokes) Maybe the Valerias Priest must wear leather :) Too bad I don't own the WotI box yet (I've ordered it, I expect to have it in a month or so), so I can't really offer any help... Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:08:12 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Lupins on the Way! That's it folks! I just received my copy of DRAGON magazine #237. It's shipping as I write. I finally had a chance to see the article on Mystara lupins in final print, complete with art from Bob Klasnich and all the necessary tables to roll up your favorite lupin PC (pull out your magnifiers, tables are printed in 7 or 8-pt type). I noticed a couple of typos involving foreign accuentuation -- no biggie. It's written for the AD&D rules, but you should not have too much trouble converting it to D&D if that's what you are using. Hope you like it. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:20:04 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Lupins on the Way! That's it folks! I just received my copy of DRAGON magazine #237. It's shipping as I write. I finally had a chance to see the article on Mystara lupins in final print, complete with art from Bob Klasnich and all the necessary tables to roll up your favorite lupin PC (pull out your magnifiers, tables are printed in 7 or 8-pt type). I noticed a couple of typos involving foreign accuentuation -- no biggie. It's written for the AD&D rules, but you should not have too much trouble converting it to D&D if that's what you are using. Hope you like it. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:33:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Priest In a message dated 97-07-09 14:45:05 EDT, you write: << since I play Mystara in AD&D I ran into a small problem. What spheres do Immortals give their priest access too, or do they just give spells when needed? >> Most Mystaran Priests would have access to the same spheres as a standard Cleric, unless there is something in their description that states or implies otherwise. More to the point -- try figuring out the spheres for such unique character types as the Halfling Master or the Ethengar Shaman. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:42:37 -0500 From: "George E. Hrabovsky" Subject: Re: [Mystara] OD&D Games... via email??? I run an OD&D Game by e-mail. Details are located at www.msn.fullfeed.com/~george. George - ---------- > From: Chris Paul Billows > To: mystara-l@lists.io.com > Subject: [Mystara] OD&D Games... via email??? > Date: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 11:14 PM > > Hi all, > > I'm a recent subscriber to the listserve, and am quite interested in OD&D (Old > Dungeons and Dragons)... I used to own all the sets and modules... but in a fit > of stupidity and ignorance, gave the stuff away (sigh). > > Anyways, does anyone play OD&D via email? I know it is being done for AD&D... > but I have always enjoyed the original game... mostly for sentimental reasons. > > Thanks much, > > > ____________________________________________________ > | || > | Chris Paul Billows B.S.W. B.A. || > | Renewal or Regression - www.gatewest.net/~cpb || > |_________________________________________________|| > \_________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:44:37 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks Daniel Boese wrote: > > >Not so, my friend. I mentioned that I have them built by the Egg of Coot, > >who is rumored to be an alien being. > > I'd just like to re-point out that in Dave Arneson's original description > of the "Egg of Coot" is a very humourous exaggeration of none other than > that oldest coot of RPGs, E. Gary Gygax. :) Ah, so then he's definitely an alien being! ;) J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:43:38 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Slow Emails DM meandered fecklessly... > At 09.30 10/07/97 -0400, Bruce Heard wrote: > >I sent four emails to Mystara-L yesterday noon and noticed only the last one > >made it through so far. Does this happen a lot? How long does it usually take > >for an email to reach everyone? How long should I wait before sending > >duplicates? > > I assure u they all went through, cause i've read them. This problem has > been also reported by JW Mangrum (Albany), and so far Leroy has not > explained it at all. All i can tell u is that eventually the e-mails arrive, > so be patient Bruce :) > I think u should wait maximum two days before sending duplicates (that's > what i do, at least)... Leroy has not explained it because this is the first he has heard of it (or my brain is turning to mush, which is entirely possible). If anyone has a problem with the list, e-mail should be sent directly to me. I read most of the posts to the list, but depending on my real-world schedule, and how many other letters I get in my inbox (I am on about a dozen mailing lists, and thus get close to 400 e-letters a day), I may end up skipping some. So, if anyone is having problems feel free to send me a letter with as many details as possible. Thanks Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:06:38 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks Diego Calugi wrote: > > I hope you've enjoyed it. Any comments? > -Diego Very, very interesting. J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:25:22 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins on the Way! TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > > That's it folks! > > I just received my copy of DRAGON magazine #237. It's shipping as I write. WOO-HOO! J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:17:37 -0300 From: Victor Caminha Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks DM wisely wrote: > First of all, the entry in the Master set 4th edition (DM's book) >says that Meks were "created by a race of INHUMAN sorcerers" who died a long >ago. Referring to this specific quote, we must then exclude the possibility >that either the Blackmoorians (as Cthul and Victor Caminha suggested) or any >other HUMAN race could have built them. Truly...i have forgotten this detail...sorry..perhaps enthusiasm blocked me from researching and reading carefully the Master set ;) > Third point is that the Horde (as Victor Caminha suggested) is not a >plausible solution, because Hordes are not capable of mastering such a high >level of technology. They are a strange lifeform of the elemental plane of >Earth, a very powerful one, but not able to use magic as to be defined "a >race of sorcerers". Also, as for the above mentioned races, they're not extinct. Agreed...it was just a wild kick..as i did not know much about the Hordes beyound companion set, and the elemental races were considered far older than humankind...but it was albeit a very unlikely hypothesis for their origins...even that the Hordes still live... > Victor also suggested the Adaptors were the Meks' creators and the >possibility that Meks found on Mystara are the testimony of their attempt to >colonize it in the early days. This could be the most intriguing and >acceptable theory, was it not for the fact that the Adaptors too aren't >extinct nor are they a race of sorcerers. Sorry if i've insisted a bit too >much on this concept, but i'm only trying to stick to canon sources, i hope >you'll understand… Hey, no prob after all :) it was my fault to not re-read about meks upon first instance.. Oards are other possible candidates, as well as any other powerful sorcerer - -like Gargantua IMC- or >race well versed in technology). This made me record the Module where chaos reigns when the pcs stop the menace of Oards in another planet of name Aelos (i am right?). But before continue, just in case: S P O I L E R S P A C E Ok..in the end of the module the adventures finally assault the last bastion of the Oards, the entropy bubble, and from there,stop the menace,returning to Mystara. Unfortunately, i did not read the module ;with the End of the Entropy bubble (i do not know if this is the true name..DM, if i am wrong , drop me a hint ;) is this mean the End of ALL OARD Civilization in Aelos? So, could be possible that the Oards (perhaps helped by an entropic immortal, such as Orcus, Thanatos,and those especially bent in the destruction of worlds and civilizations) designed a plan b, with intent of escaping total destruction? Perhaps they could arrive in mystara and try to colonize just as suggested in adaptor hypothesis, with the exception that either the immortals(i especially think about as intervention of Djaea) or any other factor interferred with their colonization, destroying forever the Oardic civilization (or what remained since its escape from Aelos). Now, they could be this "long, ancient and extinct race". The only problem as in Master set its told the mek masters were a race of sorcerers...Anyway, the use of powerful technologies could be well mistaken as magic when seen by younger and primitive races..so this could be a kind of "canonic creative interpretation" :) []s Victor Caminha "Receive the bounty of your hero's deed Tainting thy life by the gift of the dead Eternally running from a priestly bead Unable to bear the Orb in your head You'll walk in the darkness so alluring Without Hope to cleanse your sin Away from the joy of the living Forever to serve your Twin" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:09:33 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone else think that this kind of stuff should be stopped?! I >would never allow a player to be such a pain! This kind of thing ruins >adventures. He/she would kill important NPCs and just mess everything up. >This kind of chaos destroys campaigns! If a player thinks that it's fun to >kill everyone he sees, then he/she shouldn't be role-playing. He/she should >be seeing a psychologist! Please gimme some feedback. Aside from the things already pointed out about Avengers (ie Chaotic but not necessarily evil, etc.), I agree wholeheartedly with you. And I'm not talking from an idealist perspective either - I have (unfortunately) some experience with players who always want to play evil characters. In fact I recently wrote a message to this list about exactly that when I was having problems with one of my players. (In case anyone was wondering, I didn't kick him out. I just left him be, and he's been better since.) The problem is, I just don't understand why people would ever want to play a truly evil character. You can cite the "violent computer games" argument - ie that loads of people play them and no one is affected adversely (that is, any psychological disorders they had were already present regardless of playing) - but then role-playing is a lot less artificial and a lot more involved and realistic than computer games. Most of all, what fun is it? What's so great about being able to run around killing, hurting and being generally nasty to people? If you wouldn't do it (or want to do it) in real life, why do it in a game? There are, however (of course), exceptions. I know some people are heavily into revenge, and a certain amount of violence and even nastiness is inherent to role-playing - which is okay so long as it doesn't dominate the campaign. I can even imagine situations where a D&D Chaotic character could be an Avenger and still co-exist with the rest of the party very well - for instance an Avenger of Nyx. Nyx isn't evil, she is just the "Terra" of the Undead (as opposed to the Terra of the living). So having a chaotic Avenger could be fine, even in a predominantly good party, in some situations. The problem that I see for other situations is that a great many DMs want their players to cooperate, and indeed make sure that it is mandatory in order for people to have fun. With a disruptive player, things can quickly become un-fun for all involved. And evil, in my mind, = disruptive. Now, having a chaotic CAMPAIGN, wherein all players have chaotic characters, is a different matter. The whole foundation of the game is based on intrigue, in-fighting, non-cooperation and politics. I can see that such a campaign might work, even if I wouldn't ever want to put time and effort into one myself. That's enough for the moment. Anyone have any comments? (I bet you do!) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:52:24 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] Mystaran Priests Under AD&D Rules... Kaviyd@aol.com meandered fecklessly... > Most Mystaran Priests would have access to the same spheres as a > standard Cleric, unless there is something in their description that states > or implies otherwise. Just to toss out a disenting opinion: I think making Mystaran priests slight variations of the standard AD&D would do them an injustice. Personally, I find find standard clerics to be short on flavor, which is one of the many reasons I liked the move to 2nd Edition. Speciality Priests, to me, are much more intersting. I know many on this list are anti-Forgotten Realms, but anyone who has the opportunity should take a look at Faiths & Avatars, a supplement detailing the FR gods and their religions. Even if you don't like the Realms, this book is chock full of examples of what variety, depth and color can do for fantasy religion. > More to the point -- try figuring out the spheres for such unique character > types as the Halfling Master or the Ethengar Shaman. Well, for shamans I would use the system from the supplement Shaman. Although the choices of classes in that accessory was kinda screwy, the magic and information on spirits was very good. It wouldn't take too much to fit it into Mystara. As for Halfling Masters, I wasn never big on the idea. Kinda seemed to me like they said "Hey, Halflings need to be powerful too!" and so made up a system for it. Of course, this is just one man's humble opinion. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:33:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Slow Emails In a message dated 97-07-11 04:18:34 EDT, you write: << TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > > I sent four emails to Mystara-L yesterday noon and noticed only the last one > made it through so far. Does this happen a lot? How long does it usually take > for an email to reach everyone? How long should I wait before sending > duplicates? I got all four emails through the list yesterday. If you haven't got them yet, then it's probably something at your mail server's end (i.e., AOL rather than IO) Jenni >> AOL is acting REALLY strangely lately. I got Jenni's post on this subject before I got Bruce's!!! (Actually, I still haven't got Bruce's). I HAVE gotten multiple mailings of the same post, though, which is quite strange indeed... it must be AOL... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:52:01 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, MRJohnson wrote: > The difficulty here is that Gareth first shows up in 1011, a year before > Mark of Amber. This leaves the mystery of Gareth unsolved, as he can't > be Rad. Personally, I think that Benekander is an unlikely candidate as > well, mainly because WotI makes it fairly clear that he has clerics > already under the name "Benekander". Somehow Gareth has always seemed a > rather sinister character to me anyway, although there's really no > evidence to support the idea. > Maybe Gareth is actually Hel, trying to gather worshippers in the name of goodness like she did in WotI. She could aim to regain power and become the ruling hierarch again. Think about it - the bitter people of Sind gradually convert to Gareth, creating conflicts (possibly violent), and then blam - half the country worships Entropy... ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:39:28 -0800 From: NICHOLAS A HUDSON Subject: [Mystara] Re: Meks Thank you DM. As to the question of size, I also have Robotech and Rifts (both tm by Palladium Games), both of which rely extensively on mecha. According to the Master book, meks range from 11 to 16 HD. Looking at this and comparable mechs in the aforementioned games, I would say that meks can range from 16ft. to over 30ft. Regarding Victor Camihan's comments about oards, I have Where Chaos Reigns and I hope I can shed some light on the subject. Destroying the Entropy Bubble does not destroy all of the oards in the multiverse; it's not even supposed to exist. In Aelos' "standard" timeline, that is, where the immortals do not send the characters to Aelos' prehistory, the oards take over through their temporal manipulations, and they have, I assume, a fully functioning and extensive empire spread throughout the planet. What the Entropy Bubble does is separate an area from temporal and possibly planar disturbances. Regardless of what someone does in the past, it will not affect the area inside of the Entropy Bubble. If I am inside a Entropy Bubble and someone travels back in time and kills my grandparents, I am still safe. The oards' Entropy Bubble is there ace in the hole: if, on any world, other races use the oards' tricks against them, the oards are still safe from annhilation, and can escape to another planet. I theorize that the oards on Aelos placed their Entropy Bubble at the end of time, or the end of Aelos, based on the description of the outside world (a desolate wasteland, spectral hounds roaming the countryside, et c.). The module points out that there is no connection between the Entropy Bubble and the Sphere of Entropy: the names are coincidences. The oards and immortals are opposed to one another, representing the extremes of technology and magic, respectively (incidentally, I always play that technology does normal damage to immortals; otherwise, the war between the two wouldn't make much sense). Furthermore, the oards are an extremely ordered and lawful race, and if they were to work with any Sphere, it would most certainly not be Entropy. On a final note, I see that in the intelligence listings of the Master rules, even the stupidist constructs have an intelligence of 3, and even zombies have an intelligence of 1. Meks are listed not under constructs, but under monsters, and their intelligence is "not ratable." My theory, based on the real origins and the fact that they need a master for intelligence, is that they act just like Japanese mecha: that is, they are effectively giant suits of robotic armor that one enters and controls. This is a rather common theme in Japanese animation; I recommend either Robotech or Neo Genesis Evangelion, both of which should be available anywhere. Hope I've helped. Nicholas Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:00:44 +0800 (WST) From: Glenn Butcher Subject: [Mystara] Fluff URL A campaign set in Mystara. http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/campaign/cu.html I'll be updating it about every two weeks. Glenn - -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | "You're not very religious are you" glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | Spoken by the goddess Kylara to finger -l for pgp key | Lynard, her high priest http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:59:11 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Meks NICHOLAS A HUDSON wrote: > > Thank you DM. As to the question of size, I also have Robotech and > Rifts (both tm by Palladium Games), both of which rely extensively on > mecha. According to the Master book, meks range from 11 to 16 HD. Looking > at this and comparable mechs in the aforementioned games, I would say that > meks can range from 16ft. to over 30ft. As I have written before, their aspect depends IMO on their task. If the masters have created the meks to be helpful servants, they have likely built them with the shape that suits better these task. So a mek used in the mines would be very small, but one used as bodyguard could be very very high. > What the Entropy Bubble does is separate an area from temporal and > possibly planar disturbances. Regardless of what someone does in the past, > it will not affect the area inside of the Entropy Bubble. If I am inside a > Entropy Bubble and someone travels back in time and kills my grandparents, > I am still safe. The oards' Entropy Bubble is there ace in the hole: if, > on any world, other races use the oards' tricks against them, the oards > are still safe from annhilation, and can escape to another planet. I > theorize that the oards on Aelos placed their Entropy Bubble at the end of > time, or the end of Aelos, based on the description of the outside world > (a desolate wasteland, spectral hounds roaming the countryside, et c.). The nature of the Entropy Bubble is really a difficult topic. IMHO it is not placed at the end of time; it is simply a dome-shaped field of energy that "encloses a pocket of realty which is cut off from the rest of the multiverse". This means that it isn't on Aelos, but in the present of the multiverse. Probably it can be found in the astral plane, because the module says that it is surrounded by chaos. But how can this bubble cut off a piece of realty from the multiverse? IMO, and I may be wrong here, the bubble prevents time from passing. Any ideas? > On a final note, I see that in the intelligence listings of the > Master rules, even the stupidist constructs have an intelligence of 3, and > even zombies have an intelligence of 1. Meks are listed not under > constructs, but under monsters, and their intelligence is "not ratable." > My theory, based on the real origins and the fact that they need a master > for intelligence, is that they act just like Japanese mecha: that is, they > are effectively giant suits of robotic armor that one enters and controls. > This is a rather common theme in Japanese animation; I recommend either > Robotech or Neo Genesis Evangelion, both of which should be available > anywhere. This could be a really good idea, but the info in M5 e IM3 contradict with it. For example the 30 meks of the plane of Pyx are following "blindly" the last order of their lost master. IMHO, 'not ratable' means that every mek has been built with a specific task and all it can do is perform it. If a mek faces an anomalus situation, it can't react or it react in the most obvious way (such as the meks in IM3). One last thing. I exclude the oard-hypothesis because the masters of the meks are insect-like creatures and the oard are humanoids. However, as stated in CM6, the oards have created many servants, both robots and humanoids (called Talaks IIRC). - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:39:45 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks At 09.23 10/07/97 -0700, Cthulhudrew wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > >> First of all, the entry in the Master set 4th edition (DM's book) >> says that Meks were "created by a race of INHUMAN sorcerers" who died a long >> ago. Referring to this specific quote, we must then exclude the possibility >> that either the Blackmoorians (as Cthul and Victor Caminha suggested) or any >> other HUMAN race could have built them. > >Not so, my friend. I mentioned that I have them built by the Egg of Coot, >who is rumored to be an alien being. Few know exactly what he/it looks >like, nor do any know where he/it is from. Mmhh, maybe i have not made myself clear. I didn't say the Egg of Coot didn't create Meks, but that Blackmoorians couldn't have built them. >My take is that the EGG is not of this Earth (or Mystara). I don't know anything about Old Blackmoor and the Egg of Coot, so i go with your hypothesis. Just one question: could he be (from what u know) a Chronomancer? And could he have invented such complex mechanisms such as Meks with his magic alone? And where's he now? Among the Immortals?? >> Second thing is that these sorcerers are now extinct and that the >> meks are "huge metallic beings". We must therefore exclude the Pyrithians >> too, because they're not extinct (the Emerondians ARE Pyrithians: they've >> only renamed themselves after their new kingdom) and above all because they >> don't mess with anything "unnatural" (such as metallic constructs like >> meks): theirs is a druidic culture, and they "grow" monsters rather then >> construct them. > >That's a good point, though it's possible that something destroyed the >Pyrithians in recent memory, and only the Emerondans survive (to make a >distinction between them, as they are both very different cultures now.) >Perhaps it is only after Landfall that the Emerondan/Pyrithians became >the druidic culture they are currently. I don't have the Dragon issue about the Emerondians, but i've always thought that they had "druidic" attitudes and a nature-loving culture even before they made their Landfall on Mystara... but then again, i may be wrong since i lack the source where they're firstly mentioned... >> [Oh, BTW, where do you think the Pyrithian Archipelago is located exactly? I >> was thinking about one of the moons of Vanya or Khoronus (Jupiter or Saturn)…] > >I was thinking more like the nearest real world asteroid belt- whatever >it's called... As Daniel Boese pointed out, the Asteroid Belt (i've named it the Tears of Asterius, since i named Damocles Asterius) is created only after Damocles explodes (see old Immortal set), and so it's not likely the Pyrithians come from Damocles... unless a time travel occurred! During the escape flight from the planet (or from the moons of the planet, because the entry in PWA says the "emerondians came from the Pyrithian Archipelago") the survivors got stuck in a strange magical wormhole and they must make a emergency landing on Mystara. They arrive in northern Davania and, unable to rebuild their crafts, they decide to settle in the forest... Ignoring that the wormhole has brought them a couple of centuries in the past, and that their homeworld is still up there, among the stars, and that they could save it... if they only knew... (such a sad story, isn't it?) >As to other possibilities, one of Bruce's Princess Ark articles mentions >that, to the east of the N'djatwa lands in Vulcania, there live powerful >metallic creations that spend the days beating one another to a pulp. Not >much else is mentioned about this, and I have always taken it to mean >that was the land of the Earthshakers (in large part due to the >Gargantoid entry, also by Bruce, in AC10: Wonderful Inventions). Perhaps >it isn't the land of Earthshakers, but of Meks? Or perhaps the ice gnomes >in the region built their Earthshakers in imitation (scientific >imitation) of the powerful magical Meks that shared their southern lands? >And the Earthshakers are at war with the Meks of Vulcania- hence their >constant combats? This could be an interesting hypothesis. It could be the place where the ancient dormant sorcerers that created the meks lay, waiting for their awakening (as i mentioned in my previous post) and the meks are just defending them from the gnomes, who want to tunnel the "lair" of their masters with the earthshakers (built after the meks... more or less). This is what i call a perfect crossover between two similar ideas! >And what about the airships like Haldemar's that the N'djatwa mentioned >seeing in the same region? Well, better ask Per Kirvik... :) Or maybe Herr von Klagendorf (there's a Heldannic outpost at Green Bay IIRC, and it's not that far from there) DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:09:04 +0200 From: DM Subject: [Mystara] Meks and Oards At 02.39 11/07/97 -0800, you wrote: > Thank you DM. As to the question of size, I also have Robotech and >Rifts (both tm by Palladium Games), Hey, another Macross fan!! Nice to know we're not alone out there :) Do u also like Spelljammer and anime/manga in general?? >both of which rely extensively on mecha. Eh eh... don't tell it to me. I happen to be the demi-official Italian translator for Robotech (the Rulebook) and the Southern Cross supplement. >According to the Master book, meks range from 11 to 16 HD. Looking >at this and comparable mechs in the aforementioned games, I would say that >meks can range from 16ft. to over 30ft. A dwarf in comparison with Mazinger or Veritech (Walkirye) fighters... Anyway, that's the way i imagined them too. > Regarding Victor Camihan's comments about oards, I have Where >Chaos Reigns and I hope I can shed some light on the subject. Destroying >the Entropy Bubble does not destroy all of the oards in the multiverse; Wait, wait: what?? I've always thought that the oards lived only on Aelos... and that the PCs final goal in CM6 is to ANNIHILATE the oard civilization, to erase it from the universe: isn't it? > In Aelos' "standard" timeline, that is, >where the immortals do not send the characters to Aelos' prehistory, the >oards take over through their temporal manipulations, and they have, I >assume, a fully functioning and extensive empire spread throughout the >planet. The point is, IMO: where do the Oards come from? Diego Calugi and me came up with 2 possible solutions: 1. they are simply aelosians that refused to use magic and that evolved based on their techonlogic knowledge. At the end they discovered the means to travel throughout time and they went back in time to change the history of Aelos in order to convert ALL the aelosians to their thoughts and culture, thus founding an immense empire in the present (or future?). The Entropy Bubble is located in the oards' present and it's simply a "twilight zone" on Aelos, a sort of huge Force Field that blocks everything from coming in and that isolates the oards inside the bubble from the rest of the universe and of Time. 2. the oards are a temporal anomaly. They originated from a time paradox and are bound to a moebius loop into the world of Aelos, that prevents them from escaping or colonizing other civilizations. To explain a bit better: the PC went there and destroyed them, then returned to Aelos because they needed the oards' knowledge to solve a problem. They rebuilt a dead oard following the instructions and with his help solved their problem, but in exchange they gave him freedom. He then invented a time machine and traveled back to Aelos past, where he created other oards and started the plan to colonize the entire planet using time travel. The name of this oard is obviously Qartanaq... (a bit convoluted, i must admit) > What the Entropy Bubble does is separate an area from temporal and >possibly planar disturbances. Regardless of what someone does in the past, >it will not affect the area inside of the Entropy Bubble. If I am inside a >Entropy Bubble and someone travels back in time and kills my grandparents, >I am still safe. The oards' Entropy Bubble is there ace in the hole: if, >on any world, other races use the oards' tricks against them, the oards >are still safe from annhilation, and can escape to another planet. I >theorize that the oards on Aelos placed their Entropy Bubble at the end of >time, or the end of Aelos, based on the description of the outside world >(a desolate wasteland, spectral hounds roaming the countryside, et c.). OK, they can escape to another planet but only if they survive! At the end of the module it's specifically stated that if the PCs destroy the nucleus of the base, the whole Bubble implodes, killing everyone inside (except the Pcs, of course). So IMC when the characters killed the oards and destroyed the bubble, no oard survived... Are u theorizing that some of them could have escaped? How? Also, for those of u who are about playing CM6, this is my advice: play the Talaks as T-800 and T-1000... it's just much funnier than having Talaks resemble trolls... > The module points out that there is no connection between the >Entropy Bubble and the Sphere of Entropy: the names are coincidences. The >oards and immortals are opposed to one another, representing the extremes >of technology and magic, respectively (incidentally, I always play that >technology does normal damage to immortals; otherwise, the war between the >two wouldn't make much sense). Interesting. And do u think that normal gun bullets could harm Immortals then? Or those protected by Protection from normal missiles, for that matter? >Furthermore, the oards are an extremely >ordered and lawful race, and if they were to work with any Sphere, it >would most certainly not be Entropy. I agree, definitely... IIRC there was a monster entry in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium that deals with a similar monster race of extremely lawful beings that want to convert every creature to their culture by assimilating it... the Borgs are coming.... >My theory, based on the real origins and the fact that they need a master >for intelligence, is that they act just like Japanese mecha: that is, they >are effectively giant suits of robotic armor that one enters and controls. >This is a rather common theme in Japanese animation; I recommend either >Robotech or Neo Genesis Evangelion, both of which should be available >anywhere. Mmmh.. a new point of view, certainly a nice one. I hope we will go on with this topic in the future... DM ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #109 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #110 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, July 14 1997 Volume 02 : Number 110 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:24:51 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Meks At 14.59 10/07/97 +0200, Diego Calugi wrote: >NICHOLAS A HUDSON wrote: >> > >> On a final note, I see that in the intelligence listings of the >> Master rules, even the stupidist constructs have an intelligence of 3, and >> even zombies have an intelligence of 1. Meks are listed not under >> constructs, but under monsters, and their intelligence is "not ratable." >> My theory, based on the real origins and the fact that they need a master >> for intelligence, is that they act just like Japanese mecha: that is, they >> are effectively giant suits of robotic armor that one enters and controls. >> This is a rather common theme in Japanese animation; I recommend either >> Robotech or Neo Genesis Evangelion, both of which should be available >> anywhere. > >This could be a really good idea, but the info in M5 e IM3 contradict >with it. For example the 30 meks of the plane of Pyx are following >"blindly" the last order of their lost master. >IMHO, 'not ratable' means that every mek has been built with a specific >task and all it can do is perform it. If a mek faces an anomalus >situation, it can't react or it react in the most obvious way (such as >the meks in IM3). OK, the dilemma we face here is clear to me: how are the Meks built (their internal structure)? Are they simply "powerful golems" entirely made of iron or steel or adamantium (no cranks or machinery pieces inside)? Are they robots with an internal powersource and a calculator in place of the brain (androids)? Or are they Battle Suites whose real purpose and user manual has been lost (like Nicholas was suggesting)? Or are they divided into different types, according to their task and shape (as Diego suggested)? And above all: are the MAGICAL or MECHANICAL? That's the main point. Master set says they were created by a race of sorcerers, but could it be that those who compiled the Master set were hinting at the fact that the technology used was so advanced that could have been described only as "magical"? Could it be that the sorcerers were not "wizards" but technicians like the Blackmoorians (or the Beagle crew)? This is our dilemma, the last veil before the final truth... DM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:13:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Meks On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, NICHOLAS A HUDSON wrote: > On a final note, I see that in the intelligence listings of the > Master rules, even the stupidist constructs have an intelligence of 3, and > even zombies have an intelligence of 1. Meks are listed not under > constructs, but under monsters, and their intelligence is "not ratable." > My theory, based on the real origins and the fact that they need a master > for intelligence, is that they act just like Japanese mecha: that is, they > are effectively giant suits of robotic armor that one enters and controls. > This is a rather common theme in Japanese animation; I recommend either > Robotech or Neo Genesis Evangelion, both of which should be available > anywhere. In that vein, could the armor wielded by the Dragonlord in the Dragonlord Trilogy be a Mek? Just a smaller, more compact version of one? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:37:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > Mmhh, maybe i have not made myself clear. I didn't say the Egg of Coot > didn't create Meks, but that Blackmoorians couldn't have built them. Oh. I would agree with you on that point, then. :) > I don't know anything about Old Blackmoor and the Egg of Coot, so i go with > your hypothesis. Just one question: could he be (from what u know) a > Chronomancer? And could he have invented such complex mechanisms such as > Meks with his magic alone? And where's he now? Among the Immortals?? Interesting thought. There's actually very little information given on the EGG (aside from the joking description of him in First Fantasy Campaign, where the analogies of the EGG to E.Gary Gygax are evident). It does note that he gave his "number one"- a former Skandaharian who converted to the service of the EGG- his own personal Bronze Golem bodyguards, so I take it that his powerful magic could create Meks, quite possibly. Does it say that the Meks are mechanical creations, or just magical? I forget. > I don't have the Dragon issue about the Emerondians, but i've always thought > that they had "druidic" attitudes and a nature-loving culture even before > they made their Landfall on Mystara... but then again, i may be wrong since > i lack the source where they're firstly mentioned... I don't think the PWA entry changed much from the article by Bruce, but I'd have to check myself. > This could be an interesting hypothesis. It could be the place where the > ancient dormant sorcerers that created the meks lay, waiting for their > awakening (as i mentioned in my previous post) and the meks are just > defending them from the gnomes, who want to tunnel the "lair" of their > masters with the earthshakers (built after the meks... more or less). This > is what i call a perfect crossover between two similar ideas! I agree, and I do believe the ideas were based on the same concept, in all likelihood. Much like Jaggar's Transforming Gargantoid. :) > Well, better ask Per Kirvik... :) Or maybe Herr von Klagendorf (there's a > Heldannic outpost at Green Bay IIRC, and it's not that far from there) "A battle of Three armies?"- Bilbo Baggins... before it turns into a battle of Five armies. :) The Meks vs. The Gnomes and their Earthshakers vs. The Heldannic Knights. No wonder Vulcania is a wasteland... :) BTW, this idea just occurred to me as well. The Earthshakers are something on the order of 150 feet tall, and the Meks are (IIRC) somewhat shorter, perhaps there are very few Earthshakers (as I would surmise would and should be the case anyway). A lot of Meks vs. one Earthshaker could even the odds somewhat. Also, I don't recall exactly, but I believe the entry on Jaggar's Transforming Gargantoid mentioned the Earthshaker were at war with Alphatia. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:13:11 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-11 17:39:57 EDT, you write: << Do they become Paladin again only for that lapse of time? >> That would be nice, wouldn't it? But it just doesn't work that way. Immortals are a fickle and jealous bunch. Once paladinhood is lost, it's forever. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:15:44 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Slow Emails In a message dated 97-07-11 17:41:07 EDT, DM writes: << I think u should wait maximum two days before sending duplicates >> Yeah, I just found out... O well. Sorry for the foul up. I also noticed people responding to my emails before these get back to me though the list. That's also somewhat confusing. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:31:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Bad News On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > Bad news, folks. For all those who were hoping to see the projected level > changes of the Glantrian nobles that I mentioned a while back, well... it > seems I have misplaced the paper I wrote those figures down on, possibly > even threw it out a while back... :( > > I'll keep checking, but I thought I'd update you all, in case you were > wondering what the hell was taking me so long to post it. Oh well. I suppose shit happens.(can I say shit here? :) keep up the good work drew :) Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:07:18 -0300 From: Victor Caminha Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mark of Amber >> >Maybe Gareth is actually Hel, trying to gather worshippers in the name of >goodness like she did in WotI. She could aim to regain power and become >the ruling hierarch again. Think about it - the bitter people of Sind >gradually convert to Gareth, creating conflicts (possibly violent), and >then blam - half the country worships Entropy... > > Hmm thats a very interesting idea...Illuding worshippers as a New Immortal may be an activity favored by Hel (as Balthac in WotI)...And what action could loki assume as he is Bozdogan, Immortal of Hule,now fully influencing Sind? I bet he is probably more inclined to have Hel than Thanatos as Ruling hierarch... []s Victor Caminha "Receive the bounty of your hero's deed Tainting thy life by the gift of the dead Eternally running from a priestly bead Unable to bear the Orb in your head You'll walk in the darkness so alluring Without Hope to cleanse your sin Away from the joy of the living Forever to serve your Twin" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:50:47 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupin Glitch Sure enough... I think I found a mistake in the article on lupins (mine). The table stating class limitations for each lupin sub-race lists the Ochalean Crested with a 18th level max limitation as a druid. It should be instead limited to 18th level max as a wizard (the footmark is in the wrong column). The Ochalean Crested is a little guy (halfling size), almost totally hairless, with black or dark brown skin, a white tuft flowing from the top of its head down to its shoulders, and white hair growing on the back of its hands and on its feet. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 02:08:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Immortals & Religions; was Mystaran Priests Under AD&D Rules In a message dated 97-07-11 16:22:09 EDT, you write: << I know many on this list are anti-Forgotten Realms, but anyone who has the opportunity should take a look at Faiths & Avatars, a supplement detailing the FR gods and their religions. Even if you don't like the Realms, this book is chock full of examples of what variety, depth and color can do for fantasy religion. >> My friend DM's a FR Campaign, and he owns the Faiths & Avatars book. I think that it is a great book! Well, my point is, you know about the non-canon 1014 Almanac right, well I think that it would be neat to see a non-canon tome done in a similar fasion to that of the Faiths & Avatars book for the Immortals. I have no idea, offhand, who put the 1014 Almanac together, but I hope someone agrees with me on this idea. I would be willing to offer any support that I can. Please give me some feedback. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:25:58 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Yo Bruce! (Dragons) On Wed, 9 Jul 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > PS -- BTW, due to my present workload it's been difficult monitoring emails > from this list. I must have missed questions addressed to me (???). If so and > if no answer is coming forth, please email me directly with some reminder > (Yo, Bruce, someone in Mystara-L has a question), or something like that, > just to catch my attention. Thanks! I've got a couple of questions on Dragons. 1. The DragonLord Triology describes a society known as the nation of Dragons. It states that all Dragons are part of this society. The only exception is the Renegades. How well does this fit with your article about the dragons of the known world? IIRC there is even a Gold Dragon among these. Why would a Lawful Dragon be a renegade? Should the DragonLord triology be considered "What if?" 2. Remember the Old D&D product Giants and Dragons? (AC2?) It shows a picture of Giants and Dragons to a scale. Of what size are these dragons? Small, Large or Huge? Though these were specifically directed to Bruce Heard, I suppose it wouldn't hurt if you other Ladies and Bruces commented on them either... Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:40:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins on the Way! On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > I just received my copy of DRAGON magazine #237. It's shipping as I write. I > finally had a chance to see the article on Mystara lupins in final print, > complete with art from Bob Klasnich and all the necessary tables to roll up > your favorite lupin PC (pull out your magnifiers, tables are printed in 7 or > 8-pt type). I noticed a couple of typos involving foreign accuentuation -- no > biggie. It's written for the AD&D rules, but you should not have too much > trouble converting it to D&D if that's what you are using. Hope you like it. Looking foreward to it. It would be great if people on this list kept up the tradition of informing us whether coming Dragon Mags contains useful info. I only buy the mag occationally these days. (Since the Grimoire line stopped the amount of interesting stuff in the mags has decreased considerably. What I'm trying to say is, Whenever you get your hands on a new Dragon Magazine with something interestin in it: Let me know :) Haavard Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:45:36 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] Gareth, was Mark of Amber At 12.52 11/07/97 +0300, you wrote: >Maybe Gareth is actually Hel, trying to gather worshippers in the name of >goodness like she did in WotI. She could aim to regain power and become >the ruling hierarch again. Think about it - the bitter people of Sind >gradually convert to Gareth, creating conflicts (possibly violent), and >then blam - half the country worships Entropy... Interesting, but Hel is already known in Sind under the name of Kala, so it sounds strange to me that she's also Gareth. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:42:41 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Immortals & Religions; was Mystaran Priests Under AD&D Rules Ambyrus@aol.com meandered fecklessly... > My friend DM's a FR Campaign, and he owns the Faiths & Avatars book. I > think that it is a great book! Well, my point is, you know about the > non-canon 1014 Almanac right, well I think that it would be neat to see a > non-canon tome done in a similar fasion to that of the Faiths & Avatars book > for the Immortals. I have no idea, offhand, who put the 1014 Almanac > together, but I hope someone agrees with me on this idea. I would be willing > to offer any support that I can. Please give me some feedback. A while back I considered the idea of writing up the major Immortals in F&A fasion, but it really is a huge task. The detail in F&A is extensive, and their is a large number of Immortals. I may get around to it some day, when my free time becomes a bit more voluminous. I would certainly love to see someone else take up the challenge. Or, multiple people... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:37:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] WOTI Boxed Set In a message dated 97-07-12 12:47:35 EDT, you write: << Too bad I don't own the WotI box yet (I've ordered it, I expect to have it in a month or so), so I can't really offer any help... >> You ordered it?! You can do this? Can you offer me some info so that I can order me the WotI boxed set. Thanx - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:31:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-12 03:32:36 EDT, you write: << The problem that I see for other situations is that a great many DMs want their players to cooperate, and indeed make sure that it is mandatory in order for people to have fun. With a disruptive player, things can quickly become un-fun for all involved. And evil, in my mind, = disruptive. >> Yeah, but my problem is that of 4 or so people that I will be DMing will probably want to be evil characters. What are they going to do when I announce that evil alignment is going to be barred from PCs in my Mystara Campaign? - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 23:31:50 -0700 From: "S.B. Wilson" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) > Yeah, but my problem is that of 4 or so people that I will be DMing will >probably want to be evil characters. What are they going to do when I >announce that evil alignment is going to be barred from PCs in my Mystara >Campaign? >-Ambyrus ::Lurker mode off:: :) Let them know that a Mystara campaign is about being a hero. You could try to steer them in a "Robin-Hood" style campaign if they are really set on being shadowy figures. Still, IMHO, I believe that Mystara strives for larger-than-life characters, those from humble beginnings rising up to be legends in their own time. See if they are willing to try something different for awhile. Or maybe you could institute some sort of "fame scale" - the more they help out others, the more fame they get, thus the better adventuring opportunities they come across. If they stay on the low end of the scale they would always end up working for someone else for a low cut of the profits...If you explain it right (even if you don't actually make up a "fame scale") you might convince them to at least give it a try. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:49:21 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] WOTI Boxed Set At 13:37 12-07-97 -0400, Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-12 12:47:35 EDT, you write: > ><< Too bad I don't own the WotI box yet (I've ordered it, I expect to have it > in a month or so), so I can't really offer any help... > >> > You ordered it?! You can do this? Can you offer me some info so that >I can order me the WotI boxed set. Thanx >-Ambyrus Go to Dragons Trove (http://www.dragontrove.com) for info...I think he still got one or two of them left (maybe used ones) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:31:11 -0800 From: NICHOLAS A HUDSON Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks and Oards On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, DM wrote: > > Thank you DM. As to the question of size, I also have Robotech and > >Rifts (both tm by Palladium Games), > > Hey, another Macross fan!! Nice to know we're not alone out there :) Do u > also like Spelljammer and anime/manga in general?? Never seen an anime I didn't like. > > Regarding Victor Camihan's comments about oards, I have Where > >Chaos Reigns and I hope I can shed some light on the subject. Destroying > >the Entropy Bubble does not destroy all of the oards in the multiverse; > > Wait, wait: what?? I've always thought that the oards lived only on Aelos... > and that the PCs final goal in CM6 is to ANNIHILATE the oard civilization, > to erase it from the universe: isn't it? There is no reason not to suppose that oards live on other planets as well. At the TSR site, in the paper on world-specific Chronomancer information, they allude to the possibility that oards live in Mystara's future, too. Whether they are natives from Aelos who somehow escaped before the players destroyed their empire ( if they posses the secrets of time travel, escaping to another planet, plane, or even dimension should pose no difficulty), or a "home grown", is not clear. As oards are nothing more than a cybernetically evolved race of humans, they could develop anywhere humans could. > > In Aelos' "standard" timeline, that is, > >where the immortals do not send the characters to Aelos' prehistory, the > >oards take over through their temporal manipulations, and they have, I > >assume, a fully functioning and extensive empire spread throughout the > >planet. > > The point is, IMO: where do the Oards come from? Diego Calugi and me came up > with 2 possible solutions: > > 1. they are simply aelosians that refused to use magic and that evolved > based on their techonlogic knowledge. At the end they discovered the means > to travel throughout time and they went back in time to change the history > of Aelos in order to convert ALL the aelosians to their thoughts and > culture, thus founding an immense empire in the present (or future?). The > Entropy Bubble is located in the oards' present and it's simply a "twilight > zone" on Aelos, a sort of huge Force Field that blocks everything from > coming in and that isolates the oards inside the bubble from the rest of the > universe and of Time. > > 2. the oards are a temporal anomaly. They originated from a time paradox and > are bound to a moebius loop into the world of Aelos, that prevents them from > escaping or colonizing other civilizations. To explain a bit better: the PC > went there and destroyed them, then returned to Aelos because they needed > the oards' knowledge to solve a problem. They rebuilt a dead oard following > the instructions and with his help solved their problem, but in exchange > they gave him freedom. He then invented a time machine and traveled back to > Aelos past, where he created other oards and started the plan to colonize > the entire planet using time travel. The name of this oard is obviously > Qartanaq... (a bit convoluted, i must admit) I see three seperate time schemes available for the oards on Aelos. Only two of these can ultimately exist in the end. 1. This is the timeline that exists if: A)The characters fail, either dying or somehow leaving Aelos without defeating the oards. Note that the second timeline will exist for a while if this scenario takes place. B)The Immortals never send the characters. This could happen for a variety of reasons: the oards are not detected (possible, but, as the two are diametrically opposed, this may be highly unlikely); the Immortals do not consider the oards a threat (given the combined intelligence and wisdom of the collected Immortals, this probably would not happen); the Immortals are preoccupied, such as an invasion of draedens (plausible, but unlikely as little energy from the Immortals is required to send the characters through the nexus); due to bickering and infighting, the Immortals cannot decide on the course of action, who to send, which Sphere gets the credit, and so on (the most likely course; this sort of thing happens all of the time in the United Nations) C)The Immortals send a party of adventurers, but they are NPCS, that the characters may or may not know. These characters fail, temporarily creating timeline 2, but ultimately ending in timeline 1. In timeline 1, the oards' empire exists only due to a paradox. Unable to defeat the powerful magic wielded by the humans and demi-humans, the small group of scientists who turned themselves into oards travel back to key points in time, designed to thwart the advance of the demi-humans and magic. In the prehistoric age, they force human and hominid dominance and prevent the human tribes from learning spells. Later, they ensure that only humans will obtain the nesscary technological skills by eliminating the Dwarven forges. In Aelos' Bronze Age, the oards neutralize the magic-using tribes, stop the growth of druidism, and pre-emptively eliminate the halflings. Finally, in "comtemporary" Aelos (the time in Aelos that correspondes to normal Mystara), the premier wizards of their day are kidnapped and hypnotized at the Mecca of magical lore, the Bibliotheca, in a dastardly attempt to derail all magical knowledge. As you can see, most of the temporal changes are contingencies: any one of them would allow the oards to take over, but, being a highly developed and logical species, or perhaps in response to attacks from the Immortals, they placed these stop-gaps into Aelos' time stream. In any of the above events, the oards empire succeds, and all of Aelos falls before their mechanical might. Since the module states that time travel requires vast amounts of energy (thus the relatively small amount of agents sent through), the empire would most likely remain in their time, although watchposts would undoubtably be kept in the pasts, and as the technology improved, the oards might even colonize the past. Aelos would serve as a base from which the oards would conquer other planets, either by temporal warfare or outright technological might. I suppose that their ultimate goal for the defeat of the Immortals would be to kill them before they became immortal, rather than risk a standard war on the Outer Planes. Perhaps oard interference had something to do with the dislocation of the Old Ones. 2.This is a temporary timeline that exists if: A) A party of adventurers attempts to defeat the oards and fails. This timeline would eventually become the above, but the impact of the adventurers would certainly cause fluctuations in the history of Aelos until the oards fixed the problem by traveling back to point of disturbance. For example, the oards may briefly find themselves caught in a war in the native time with the demi-humans, who were not so long ago extinct. 3.This is the timeline that exists if: A) A party of adventurers defeats the oards and destroys the Entropy Bubble. In this event, the oard menace has been eradicated from Aelos. In this tiemline, the oards, if they even exist (it is possible that through the characters actions throughout the module that they change history to the point that the oards never develop), are nothnig more than a brief footnote in the histroy books as an obscure band of ethnocentric "mages" who were ignomiously destroyed when they managed to offend a clan of kobolds. An interesting variation on this end would be if the characters do not travel to the Entropy Bubble. If the characters believe their work to be done after the Bibliotheca (and, in a way, it is) and posses the means of planar travel, they can return to their home. In this event, Aelos is safe, but the oards living in the Entropy Bubble at the end of time are safe, and, according to the module, are waiting until they can leave the planet, presumably by a spaceship or a gate of some sort. They will not threaten Aelos until they have more power, such as another planet, but will undoubtably remember the characters and will certainly seek them out for a reckoning. As the module implies that the oards can leave Aelos, the concept that they are bound to Aelos does not seem to make sense. I have a brief little treatise on why temporal travel as it is usually accepted must include spatial travel, but it is fairly boring and I'll only reprint it if someone wants it. > > What the Entropy Bubble does is separate an area from temporal and > >possibly planar disturbances. Regardless of what someone does in the past, > >it will not affect the area inside of the Entropy Bubble. If I am inside a > >Entropy Bubble and someone travels back in time and kills my grandparents, > >I am still safe. The oards' Entropy Bubble is there ace in the hole: if, > >on any world, other races use the oards' tricks against them, the oards > >are still safe from annhilation, and can escape to another planet. I > >theorize that the oards on Aelos placed their Entropy Bubble at the end of > >time, or the end of Aelos, based on the description of the outside world > >(a desolate wasteland, spectral hounds roaming the countryside, et c.). > > OK, they can escape to another planet but only if they survive! At the end > of the module it's specifically stated that if the PCs destroy the nucleus > of the base, the whole Bubble implodes, killing everyone inside (except the > Pcs, of course). So IMC when the characters killed the oards and destroyed > the bubble, no oard survived... Are u theorizing that some of them could > have escaped? How? > Also, for those of u who are about playing CM6, this is my advice: play the > Talaks as T-800 and T-1000... it's just much funnier than having Talaks > resemble trolls... To be honest, I don't see many original ways that Aelosian oards could escape, but: 1. They had another Entropy Bubble hidden somewhere, and the Immortals couldn't find it, so the nexus didn't take the adventurers there. From a dramatic and literary standpoint, this is a terrible plot development, but for the oards it makes sense: Oards are very thorough, meticulous to the point of redundancy. An example of this is the fact that the oards intervene in four different times when one would serve their purposes. This other bubble would only require a few oards, taleks, and breeding tanks to create a sizeable force for the Multiverse to contend with. 2. It is possible that some oards escaped from the Entropy Bubble to another location before the destruction of the Entropy Bubble. The oards may have had a contingency evacuation plan that was activated as soon as the characters started to interfere with their plans in Aelos' prehistory. The problem here is how the escaped oards survive once the characters change time and destroy the Entropy Bubble. If the oards escape to another planet or another plane, they would still be affected temporaly, but (depending on the campaign) traveling to another dimension may allow them to escape the collapse of the Entropy Bubble. 3. As I said earlier, oards are simply humans who have evolved with cybernetics. Anywhere that humans can develop, oards can develop. Any oards encountered on Mystara need not be native to Aelos. On a collary to that note, the Aelosian oards may not be native to Aelos. If there is an Oardian home planet, vast numbers of oards would be unaffected by the developments on Aelos. The standard tactic of the oards may be to send a small force to set up an Entropy Bubble on a planet at the end of time, and from there proceed to take over the planet. Actually, I believe that what I have just said in this number could easily be refuted by the text, and I would agree: this goes against what I feel the module is trying to say. However, this may work for another race of beings, or for oards in other campaign worlds, such as Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, et c., or one of your own creation. > > The module points out that there is no connection between the > >Entropy Bubble and the Sphere of Entropy: the names are coincidences. The > >oards and immortals are opposed to one another, representing the extremes > >of technology and magic, respectively (incidentally, I always play that > >technology does normal damage to immortals; otherwise, the war between the > >two wouldn't make much sense). > > Interesting. And do u think that normal gun bullets could harm Immortals > then? Or those protected by Protection from normal missiles, for that matter? I once was looking through my friend's modules and I saw an Immortal-level adventure (I think it was IM1, and the title had "storm" in it). I never read it, and I have never been able to find it. From (very) briefly glancing through it, I saw that somehow the immortal characters had been sent to 1984 America, the real world, specifically Chicago and Washington, D.C.. I can only guess how guns are treated, but I theorize that, as the immortals will need challenges on the real world from the locals, guns inflict standard damage on both mortals and immortals. As for Protection from Normal Missiles, I would probably base my decision on the caliber used. Bullets and shells aren't exactly "normal" missiles. I have a request for any DMs who have run a campaign with "Where Chaos Reigns" and allowed the players to use the oardian technology (I know the module says they can't). Did you encounter any balance problems, and if so, how did you fix them? Thank you. Nicholas Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:57:18 -0800 From: NICHOLAS A HUDSON Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Meks I have a new proposal regarding meks. It will not solve the issue of who created the "canon" meks (I'll explain soon), but it may provide a consensus. I'm not really providing anything new, but it might provide a common taxonomy. Let us begin with what we know: Meks are mechanical, i.e. technological, creations. They are not naturally occuring, were created by "sorcerers" (either actual magic-users, or, much more likely given meks' nature, beings of sufficently advanced technology to be labeled sorcerers by more primitive species), and are found in several planes. They, in and of themselves, are not intelligent. Meks vary in hit dice, which would imply that they vary in size, construction, power, and use. Many meks are insectoid, but among the non-insectoid, there is considerable variation. According to the Master DM Book, meks were created by "inhuman" entities (what I mean by canon meks). According to IM3, meks are not intelligent enough to travel to other planes are their own. This implies that meks are native to several planes. Extrapolation: Not all meks were created by the same race. Given the variation and the distribution of meks in several places throughout the Multiverse, one race does not seem to fulfil all of the requirements necessary for mek creation and placement. As they cannot travel to other planes on their own, and presumably do not reproduce, to be found on other planes in (relatively) large numbers would require meks being created on said plane. My proposal is that "mek" refers to a giant robot created for some purpose. Under this definition, both my description and Diego Calugi's apply, as well as any other I have seen. The meks could be brainless armor, or they could be semi-intelligent, autonomous drones, or even a combination of the two: roboticized armor with intelligent features (autopilot, weapon targeting, et c.). Thus there can be many meks, with many different attributes. Unfortunatly, I cannot explain who the inhuman sorcerers are mentioned in the description. A theory I came up with involved the Beagle. The crew is technically inhuman, and the locals see them as gods with powerful magic. Escalating warfare between Captain Riesling and Saint Stephen may lead the two to develop powered armor, which they would use to harass one another. Nicholas Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:31:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks and Oards In regard to the effects of technology on Immortals -- all technology could be assigned a magic equivalent. Thus, while an Immortal could easily shrug off a pistol bullet (which is probably no better than +1 -- maybe less, as in TV and movies such bullets do not usually affect werewolves), he might have considerably more trouble with more massive firepower, as from an artillery piece. The sophistication and sheer destructive power of the weapons should be the deciding points. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:00:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] AD&D Priest In a message dated 97-07-12 12:47:35 EDT, you write: << Maybe the Valerias Priest must wear leather :) >> At most -- I could certainly see good reason for a Priest of Valerias to wear nothing at all (for armor, of course....). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:56:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Gianni Bianconcini Subject: [Mystara] immortals = gods ? i wonder if there is a limit to an immortal's power : are there things that he can't do ? do immortals fear anything ? are all immortals on the same level or some have more power than others ? - ------------------------------------------- Gianni Bianconcini E-mail: bel0919@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 01:44:50 -0800 From: NICHOLAS A HUDSON Subject: Re: [Mystara] immortals = gods ? On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Gianni Bianconcini wrote: > i wonder if there is a limit to an immortal's power : are there things that > he can't do ? > do immortals fear anything ? > are all immortals on the same level or some have more power than others ? > > > > ------------------------------------------- > Gianni Bianconcini > > E-mail: bel0919@iperbole.bologna.it > There are extreme limits placed on the powers of an Immortal, both natural and arbitrary. Immortals live in their own society, and make laws that they govern themselves with. A perfect example of this is the law forbidding, in most instances, direct involvement in the Prime Plane. There are several different tiers of power, comprising 42 levels of the immortal "class". I take you have not read either Wrath of the Immortals or the original Immortals boxed sets. If you can obtain a copy of either of these (preferably Wrath, as it is revised and offers a very important series of adventures), you can see the layout of the immortal world. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:04:17 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks and Oards Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > In regard to the effects of technology on Immortals -- all technology could > be > assigned a magic equivalent. Thus, while an Immortal could easily shrug off > a pistol bullet (which is probably no better than +1 -- maybe less, as in TV > and movies such bullets do not usually affect werewolves), he might have > considerably more trouble with more massive firepower, as from an artillery > piece. The sophistication and sheer destructive power of the weapons should > be the deciding points. That's a good idea! However, as Nicholas Hudson suggested, are there any rules in IM1 about the effects of technology on Immortals? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:19:38 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Slow Emails > AOL is acting REALLY strangely lately. I got Jenni's post on this subject > before I got Bruce's!!! (Actually, I still haven't got Bruce's). I HAVE > gotten multiple mailings of the same post, though, which is quite strange > indeed... it must be AOL... > > Mystaros that happens all the time for me im used to it now since no one else had mentioned it ive always assumed it was aol but it has been going on for a while - --- -- --Crip ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #110 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #111 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Tuesday, July 15 1997 Volume 02 : Number 111 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:53:40 -0700 From: "valerya@hotmail.com" Subject: [Mystara] More on RLaRue's "Traladaran Gypsies" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------4B424154795C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there! This is valerya (valerya@hotmail.com)...Thought everyone might like this...I'd like to know what you think...Also, 2 questions: Has anyone developed the Seven SecretCrafts (Glantri) any more than in the boxed set? And does anyone have any info on the Demiplane of Nightmares (as you can guess, one of my players is a Dream Master)...Looking forward to hearing from you...Valerya - --------------4B424154795C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="DARINE.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline; filename="DARINE.TXT" Back in June when I joined the mailing list, I found a "Ramble on Tralada= ran Gypsies," by RLaRue. He talked about a possible "Gypsy"-like class o= f Traladarans, to be called the Darine. I took that idea and ran with it= , and combined RLaRue's thoughts with the entry in the Monstrous Compendi= um Annual Volume Two on the Vistani, and came up with something I really = like. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks, and so if you have any= ideas or comments, I'm at valerya@hotmail.com. Oh, by the way, I've pos= ted some questions at the end of this. This entry is pretty long, so enj= oy! THE DARINE The Darine (singular, "Daro" or "Dara") are the "gypsies" of Traladara.= They are descended from the Traldar that migrated west into Sind during= the invasion of the Red Orcs in 1000 BC. Never quite fitting into the l= ocal culture, the Traldar tribe that formed from these refugees moved out= of the region in 600 BC and hasn't ever really settled down since; thoug= h the region of Traladara has become a "homeland" for many of the clans, = the Darine range as far north as Darokin and Rockhome; west to the Five S= hires, Sind and the Burning Waste; east to Vyalia and western Thyatis; an= d south to Ierendi. = The Darine resemble most Traladarans in appearance: dark hair, light to = olive skin, dusky eyes. They dress in even more vibrant clothing than th= eir Traladaran cousins, preferring bright kerchiefs, scarves, and sashes,= along with embroidered trousers and vests worn with billowing shirts. B= oth men and women typically wear a great deal of jangling jewellry, and m= en pierce their ears as often as women. They earn their living in various ways, mostly through services, trade, = fortune telling, and entertaining, although they have a reputation for th= ievery. They occasionally hire out as guides. They have a knack for gui= ding parties safely to wherever they wish to go. They are clever, and al= ways find ways to honour their agreements, even if these have been made w= ith conflicting sides. The Darine diet consists of roasted meat, goat's and mare's milk, berrie= s and other fruit, and strong coffees. Many Darine are skilled as warriors and thieves. Spellcasters are rarer= and usually women. Darine typically arm themselves with swords, daggers= , cudgels, light axes, and similar weapons. Missile weapons are uncommon= ; longer distance weapons tend to be light crossbows or slings, while thr= owing daggers are popular for short-ranged work. Religiously, the Darine feel a strong connection to the land, and honour= Zirchev above all other Immortals. (They also honour Halav and Petra, b= ut not as universally.) This Darine connection to the land is strange: t= hey love the land and its creatures, but seem unable to settle down. Thi= s is because of curse called down upon the Darine long, long ago. During= their travels in Sind over a thousand years ago, the tribes that would b= ecome the Darine encountered a treacherous priest of Thanatos who was sys= tematically exterminating a small pocket of scrub forest along with the c= reatures that lived there, a clear and precious (especially so near the e= dge of the desert) stream, and a tiny sub-clan of elves. They confronted= the priest over a series of both chance meetings and organized raids; fi= nally, a daring group of Darine warriors captured the evil priest and rai= sed their swords to strike him down. In that instant, the priest pronoun= ced a terrible curse: for their meddling, the Darine and their families f= or all time would wander, homeless and unable to settle in even the lands= they loved most. Being without roots, they would resort to trickery and= deceit for a living. Men would hate and fear them, and would persecute = them wherever they would attempt to settle. And, according to the priest= 's words, none but Thanatos himself could break the curse. Ever since that fateful day, the Darine have wandered. The few individu= als who try to settle down are usually restless, secretly longing for the= ir old life. The Darine blood of these few infects them with a similar d= esire to wander, causing them to seek lives as adventurers. A Darine clan consists of a caravan of 5 to 50 members, and is usually a= n extended family. The Darine travel in wooden wagons called "vardos" (s= mall wagons with a high arching roof and a door at the back with the driv= er sitting in front). Vardos are painted in vivid colours and might even= have tiny windows of tinted glass, if the owner is prosperous. The vard= o travels with a small menagerie of dogs, goats, and crated chickens. Ea= ch caravan is led by the elders (oldest male and female). These elders h= ave the final say on all matters that affect the whole clan. They arrang= e marriages between clans to form alliances and diffuse feuds. A clan mi= ght consist of one set of grandparents, one or two of their sons, their s= ons' families and maybe their grandsons' families. Typically, only unmar= ried daughters live with their blood relatives, going to live with their = husbands' families upon marriage. = Non-Darine are derisively called "giorgios." While these individuals ma= y be befriended of Darine, they can never be considered part of the Darin= e fellowship. There are no "honorary" Darine. Darine trade with giorgio= s for everything, preferring goods, services, and even trinkets over Roya= ls or Daros, or the like. They often accept promises for later services = in place of immediate payment. They interpret promises literally, so car= e must be taken on the exact wording. = Darine follow their own law, such that it is. They ignore laws they don= 't like, completely unfettered by guilt. To the Darine, justice is more = important than the law. They also view property differently (much like t= he Nuari or older Makai), and so do not feel remorse over petty thefts. = They view murder and rape much more harshly than even the King's courts, = though, and punish both appropriately. They also dislike broken promises= and lies, but think nothing of twisting the truth in their favour. Dari= ne punishments for crimes are always fitting: for example, rape is punish= able by castration, a broken promise for services by the kidnapping of a = member of the offender's family (to carry out that promised service), and= assault by a curse (see below) or--at the very least--a thorough pummell= ing. The Darine consist of two large tribes subdivided into several clans. E= ach tribe has its own manner of dress, appearance and traditions, though = members of one tribe acknowledge members of the other as Darine. All cla= ns have at least some fortune tellers and entertainers, and characters of= nearly any rogue class. Pure warriors are rare. While the Darine do no= t have clerics or priests of any organized religion (including that of Zi= rchev), this role is fulfilled by individuals who functions as healers, m= ystics, or oracles. Most of these are women, especially the elder women.= The two distinct Darine tribes (including the subdivision in the Kaldres= h tribe) and some related clans include: Kaldresh The Kaldresh tribe consists of two separate subgroups, the Kaldresh and = the Manusa. The Kaldresh are "camp followers": tinkers, smiths, animal t= rainers, and healers. They pride themselves in their ability to supply a= rmies, trade caravans, adventurers, and others with the proper tools need= ed to defeat enemies, as well an needed healing after a battle. The Kald= resh have been known to supply both sides in a conflict, not really carin= g about the disputes of non-Darine, but more interested in making a livin= g. Clans of Kaldresh include the Kamii, Equarr, and Vatraska. The Manusa are the rarest of Darine and are seldom encountered in number= s larger than a single family. They are the most mysterious and reclusiv= e of the Darine and the ones closest to the oldest legends of the race. = They are tinkerers in the arcane: amulets, charms, potions, and lore. Ru= mour says they have the power to bend time and space to their will, and t= hat they know much of ancient evils and how best to ward off or escape th= em. It is believed they guard the other Darine from further assaults by = Thanatos. Clans of Manusa include the Naiat and the Zarovan. Vistani The Vistani are consummate entertainers. Their camps are rife with bard= s, dancers, musicians, and con men. They seem to have the ability to tur= n even the most hostile audience into an adoring crowd, and frequently a = charming Vistana can convince an entire village to gamble away months of = savings on a rigged game with a smile and a few well-placed words. It is= the Vistani who occasionally agree to perform as guides, having seen mor= e of Brun than most Kaldresh clans. In these cases, the Vistana performs= exactly according to the contract, not going beyond the letter of the ag= reement, but not falling short of it, either--although they are not adver= se to negotiating a new contract if the other party wishes, for just a fe= w more coins . . . The Vistani have a darker side; they also hire out as= smugglers, kidnappers, and (in a very few instances) assassins, using th= eir innate charm to circumvent obstacles that stymie others. Like the Ka= ldresh, the Vistani might accept such assignments from all sides in a con= flict, performing what they view as necessary, preordained tasks. Tribes= include the Canjar and the Corvara. DARINE KITS There are two primary Darine kits which combine abilities from other, ge= neral kits as well as new abilities: the Darine Mystic and the Darine Sha= rpster. Darine Mystic The Darine Mystic is especially found in the Kaldresh tribe. This chara= cter is usually a woman. The Mystic is a master of will over spirit and = matter. A such, she is a consummate fortune-teller, charmer, and faith h= ealer, with other abilities similar to a Wokani. The Mystic has a gaze attack called the "evil eye." This focuses powerf= ul negative emotions--hate, anger, jealousy--against a creature meeting t= heir gaze. The attack is usable thrice per day, and can manifest in one = of five ways. The most common are a "hold" (person or monster) or a "cur= se" (though "fear," "charm," and "suggestion" effects are not unknown). = To avoid the effect, the target creature must save vs. paralyzation. Fai= lure against any except the "curse" afflicts the creature for 2-5 rounds;= failing against the "hold" by 4 or more inflicts disabling convulsions u= pon the victim for three rounds. The "curse" effect is similar to the re= verse of the 4th-level wizard spell "remove curse." It can affect either= a creature or an item, but the curse itself must be spoken. Mystics advance as clerics, with the Hit Dice of a wizard, though with a= n additional 2 hp per level. They can automatically cast the first-level= priest spell "cure light wounds" three times a day, as well as the first= - -level wizard spell "charm person" once a day. The Mystic can also make = "brews and philtres," including potions and poisons of various effects an= d durations (these must always be liquid, and act as the potions of the m= agical item list in the DMG). The Mystic can make one such potion per we= ek. = Mystics for the purposes of spellcasting progress as priests, though wit= h a difference: the spells the Mystic receives at first level are first-l= evel priest spells. Additional spells received at second level are first= level wizard spells. Spells received at third level are second level pr= iest spells, and so one, to the fifth level of spellcasting. In other wo= rds, = Mystic Spells Received Level 1 One L1 priest (P) spell 2 One L1 priest (P) spell, one L1 wizard (W) spell 3 One L1 P, one L1 W, one L2 P 4 Two L1 P, one L1 W, one L2 P, one L2 W 5 Two L1 P, one L1 W, two L2 P, one L2 W, one L3 P 6 Two L1 P, one L1 W, two L2 P, one L2 W, one L3 P, one L3 W 7 Two L1 P, one L1 W, two L2 P, one L2 W, one L3 P, one L3 W, one L= 4 P 8 Two L1 P, one L1 W, two L2 P, one L2 W, two L3 P, one L3 W, one L= 4 P, one L4 W 9 Two L1 P, two L1 W, two L2 P, two L2 W, two L3 P, one L3 W, one L= 4 P, one L4 W, = one L5 P 10 Two L1 P, two L1 W, two L2 P, two L2 W, two L3 P, one L3 W, two L4= P, one L4 W, = one L5 P, one L5 W 11+ --No additional spells are granted past this level-- = Mystics may not carry or use any weapon other than a small sickle-shaped= dagger with which to cut herbs for potions. Darine Sharpster This character is usually found among the Vistani. The Sharpster can be= a man or a woman, but is typically a man. The Sharpster is a talented c= harmer, confidence man, pilferer, and entertainer (usually of the hand-is= - -quicker-than-the-eye variety). = Sharpsters are, first and foremost, con-men. They specialize in all sor= ts of tricks and games designed to liven spirits and to earn a living (wh= at giorgio morality says of this way to earn a living is of no consequenc= e to a Daro, anyway). To this end, Sharpsters can automatically cast the= first-level wizard spells "charm person" and "alter self" an unlimited n= umber of times per day, and the third-level spell "suggestion" three time= s a week. They gain +5% to the thief ability Pick Pockets, and know Thie= ves' Cant wherever they travel regularly. They can also influence crowd = reactions as a bard, whereupon when a Sharpster is addressing a crowd the= audience must save vs. paralyzation, with a -3 penalty for every three = experience levels of the Sharpster. Should the saving throw fail, the gr= oup's reaction is automatically shifted to friendly; those who save feel = animosity toward the Sharpster, suspecting the nature of his scheme. Sha= rpsters advance as thieves, and may use the weapons of that class. Some = Sharpsters have been known to be multiclass fighter/thieves, but never ma= ge/thieves or fighter/mage/thieves. BY THE WAY . . . I have a few questions that I was wondering if anyone could answer, if y= ou're interested. = I'm working on a list of the emperors of Alphatia from Landfall to the W= OTI--does anyone have any more info other than the bits and pieces in Daw= n of the Emperors? Does anyone have specifics on Alphatian Airships? I have the "Big Magica= l Item Creation" from DOE, of course, but what was the tactics of warfare= with airships? Terari (Tylion IV of Alphatia) plays a large role in my campaign. Does = anyone have any information on his reign aside from the Spike Assault and= his resignation. Again, thanks for your help--if you have any thoughts on my above questi= ons, please e-mail me personally at valerya@hotmail.com. = - --------------4B424154795C-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:52:07 -0400 (EDT) From: B1Bard@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Brant's Back yep... I'm back from my AOL account for now, but I'm still searching for a more internet-friendly and less expensive account elsewhere. Juno, for all of it's ravings about email for the masses, does not support MACs. Oh well, I guess I'm above the masses. (Insert snide remark about getting what you pay for... PCs as lowest common demoninator... etc.) Anyway netMAG #8 is almost done. I'm still working on the .gif files. I heard that some people couldn't open the .gifs from the last netMAG. If that's true can you please email me and tell me what yu tried to get it to work. I may just use .jpgs this time. Also, I've been off the lost for over a week. If any good articles were posted, could someone please forward them to me so I can include them. Thanks! Brant http://members.aol.com/b1bard/ b1bard@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:30:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Meks and Oards In a message dated 97-07-14 07:46:38 EDT, scalugi@biuno.dada.it (Diego Calugi) writes: << That's a good idea! However, as Nicholas Hudson suggested, are there any rules in IM1 about the effects of technology on Immortals? >> The high tech world in that module is described as a tri-space (a term from the Gold Box rules) where magic does not work (although "Power" and "Aura" attacks still do -- but most Immortal magic is likewise forbidden). Flying is possible for Immortals, but is not recommended. Also, because its inhabitants are humans who are theoretically capable of attaining Immortality, the Immortal adventurers are forbidden to do anything to call excessive attention to themselves -- "Their society must be preserved and undisturbed". As for firearms -- they work normally in a trispace, but the ammunition has a 50% chance of exploding in a tetraspace and a 75% chance of exploding in a pentaspace (such as the Prime Material Plane that contains Mystara). They do affect Immortals, although they can save vs. "Physical Blow" for half damage -- I am not sure whether that save is even part of the WotI rules, but I think you get the idea. But if I understand this module correctly, normal weapons affect Immortals on this world -- their only advantage over mortals is that they have lots of hit points and a superior armor class. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:42:05 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gareth, was Mark of Amber On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Interesting, but Hel is already known in Sind under the name of Kala, so it > sounds strange to me that she's also Gareth. > Well, not many people would start worshipping Kala, so she's posing under another name to attract followers... ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:59:07 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Meks NICHOLAS A HUDSON wrote: > According to IM3, meks are not intelligent enough to travel to other > planes are their own. This implies that meks are native to several planes. They can't travel *alone* to other planes, but they can do it if they are escorted by their masters. So, this doesn't mean necessarily that they are native to several planes. However, this point isn't in contrast with your good hypothesis. > Extrapolation: Not all meks were created by the same race. Given > the variation and the distribution of meks in several places throughout > the Multiverse, one race does not seem to fulfil all of the requirements > necessary for mek creation and placement. As they cannot travel to other > planes on their own, and presumably do not reproduce, to be found on other > planes in (relatively) large numbers would require meks being created on > said plane. Yes, you are right! And they also seem to be found in different ages. For example, if the mek in M5 is guarding the Temple of Dawn, it means that the mek has been built before the construction of the temple itself. > My proposal is that "mek" refers to a giant robot created for some > purpose. Under this definition, both my description and Diego Calugi's > apply, as well as any other I have seen. The meks could be brainless > armor, or they could be semi-intelligent, autonomous drones, or even a > combination of the two: roboticized armor with intelligent features > (autopilot, weapon targeting, et c.). This is a good proposal, but there is one problem: hit dices. Robots can be as small as a dog (such as the Pathfinder) or as big as a palace. Meks are described as constructs with 11-16 HD. A dog with 11 HD is a bit too powerful, isn't it? :) So, this is my counter-proposal: meks aren't robots, but a category of robots. This is reasonable since they were built by sorcerers and their masters, as you suggested, seem to be more than a single race of sorcerers. So IMHO, with the word 'mek' we mean a sort of constructs, which share the same main features (material, dimensions, power, AC, number of attacks, and so on) and maybe the same system of building. So they are all made of steel and created as bodyguards, they can change shape and are resistent to magic. What do you think? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:13:16 -0400 (EDT) From: RLaRue@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on RLaRue's "Traladaran Gypsies" Valerya wrote: << He talked about a possible "Gypsy"-like class of Traladarans, to be called the Darine. >> Why, yes I did and thanks for actually reading it. :) For the record, I must give credit where it is due. The name "Darine" comes from Mystaros. I believe it is the name he uses in his campaign and pre-dates my ideas. Valerya's work looks excellent and has saved me a lot of time. Great job! Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:44:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Demihuman Clans Five clans of Earth Gnomes live in Highforge, Karameikos. Is any ifo published on them? Doesn anyone have ideas for names for these clans? Also, I've heard rumours of a Polyhethron article on Halfling Clans. Was this ever published? Has anyone done any work on the clans of the Five Shires? Was this too many Questions at once? Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:39:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on RLaRue's "Traladaran Gypsies" On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, valerya@hotmail.com wrote: > Hi there! This is valerya (valerya@hotmail.com)...Thought everyone might > like this...I'd like to know what you think...Also, 2 questions: Has > anyone developed the Seven SecretCrafts (Glantri) any more than in the > boxed set? And does anyone have any info on the Demiplane of Nightmares > (as you can guess, one of my players is a Dream Master)...Looking > forward to hearing from you...Valerya More on Gypsies later when I get to read it more carefully. As a matter of fact I've been working on the Dream Mages. I havent posted it yet since it isn't finnished, but it will change them dramatically. One of the changes is that the Dream Mages or Oneiromancers as I call them are no longer connected to the Demiplane of Nightmares (The Dimension of Nightmares is a better term IMHO) Rather this is replaced by a plane I call The Dreaming.(inspired by Neil Gaiman's Sandman) The Dimension of Nightmares was extrapolated by Mystaros(or was that Cthuludrew?) as a dimension where Lovecraftlike critters breed. My theory is that Nightmare creatures from The Dreaming can escape to this Dimension and gain a life of their own. If there is any interest, I'll post more on this later... Haavard. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:02:42 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on RLaRue's "Traladaran Gypsies" valerya@hotmail.com wrote: > > Hi there! This is valerya (valerya@hotmail.com)...Thought everyone might > like this...I'd like to know what you think...Also, 2 questions: Has > anyone developed the Seven SecretCrafts (Glantri) any more than in the > boxed set? And does anyone have any info on the Demiplane of Nightmares > (as you can guess, one of my players is a Dream Master)...Looking > forward to hearing from you...Valerya > Good work, valerya (but I have already told you this :) ! Just two question: 1) How do the local governments deal with these gypsies? 2) How do they rule themselves? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:00:27 -0400 (EDT) From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: >>If a player thinks that it's fun to >>kill everyone he sees, then he/she shouldn't be role-playing. He/she should >>be seeing a psychologist! Please gimme some feedback. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) wrote : >The problem is, I just don't understand why people would ever want to >play a truly evil character. (snip) >Most of all, what fun is it? What's so great about being able to run >around killing, hurting and being generally nasty to people? >If you wouldn't do it (or want to do it) in real life, why do it in a game? One of my primary reasons for roleplaying is to assume the identity of of someone other than myself. To take actions that i wouldn't normally take in real life, or can't take in real life. To be the hero that we always see in the movies. To be able to wield weapons like an expert. These are some of the biggest reasons that people roleplay for. In real life, we can't spend all our time learning to wield a battle-axe in hopes that we will one day prove to a king that we are trustworthy enough to mount his Ruby dragon. Some people might only wish to see things from the hero's perspective, but how about attempting to play as an evil character. To see what they go through in life, how they become evil, and what evil can drive them to do. The advantages and disadvantages of playing someone looking at the world from the other way around. People are driven to roleplaying because of the freedom of character. Different races, classes, and alignments are the major traits that make up the difference of characters. If you don't like playing evil that's fine, but why not try a campaign with evil characters, or just one of the characters evil, or being driven evil by someone or something. It's worth a try. - --- -- --Crip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:57:03 -0400 (EDT) From: RLaRue@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on RLaRue's "Traladaran Gypsies" Greetings! I would love to see your ideas on Dream Mages and "The Dreaming". I plan to introduce dream magic into my own campaign in a few weeks, but so far I've been disapointed by published TSR material. I have resigned myself to having to make it all up from scratch. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:05:19 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman Clans >Also, I've heard rumours of a Polyhethron article on Halfling Clans. Was >this ever published? Has anyone done any work on the clans of the Five >Shires? Ed Greenwood was supposed to publish the names of the clans of the Five Shires in Polyhedron. But if it was done, it does not show up in Polyhedron's index. I have not seen the names in other products, but I know that they were dropped by accident from GAZ8, so they are at TSR. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:01:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman Clans In a message dated 97-07-15 13:46:34 EDT, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no (Haavard Roenne Faanes) writes: << Also, I've heard rumours of a Polyhethron article on Halfling Clans. Was this ever published? Has anyone done any work on the clans of the Five Shires? >> The names of the 100 clans and where they live can be constructed by doing research in the Five Shires gazetteer. However, any information beyond those mere facts must be invented by an ambitious fan of Mystara. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:26:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) This may have nothing to do with my initial post(I posted this whole Evil thing by the way), but it is just something that I am trying to understand. As you all know, alignment was different for OD&D. Your options were Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful. In AD&D, they introduced Good and Evil. Now, my question is: How much does this affect everything? I mean, in the AD&D makeover that Mystara got, the alignments were updated in an AD&D format, and a lot of the NPC's got updated alignments. I want to know if the three original alignments meant something different then, than they do now. Did it have anything to do with the characters morals, or was it an incomplete type of alignment? Can someone please gimme some feedback...thanx - -Ambyrus Flavion Vylestraan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:10:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Wassellj@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 15/07/97Crip wrote: << One of my primary reasons for roleplaying is to assume the identity of of someone other than myself. To take actions that i wouldn't normally take in real life, or can't take in real life. To be the hero that we always see in the movies. To be able to wield weapons like an expert. These are some of the biggest reasons that people roleplay for. In real life, we can't spend all our time learning to wield a battle-axe in hopes that we will one day prove to a king that we are trustworthy enough to mount his Ruby dragon. >> Absolutely. Have you lot that can't understand the attraction of an evil character never seen an anti-hero in a book or film and wanted to play that character ? In Anthony Hope's 'The Prisoner of Zenda' there is the Count of Hentzau. An experienced and ruthless killer, but a magnificent romantic character. Running from a sword fight with the hero he escapes by diving headlong out of the window and into the castle moat. Stopping only to turn and tell the hero that 'he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day'. To say that people who want to play evil characters need psychiatrists is absolute rubbish. These are probably the people who won't need a psychiatrist, because they understand the barriers between fact and fiction. Rember that when you have to explain to non-role players how this system works there is one basic rule. THE MORE PEOPLE YOUR CHARACTER KILLS THE MORE POWERFUL IT BECOMES. Justify that as you will, but you still go around cutting people down with an axe or turning them into molten with a fireball. People in glass houses should not throw stones - especially when it comes to morality, or the state of minds of other role-players. Glad I got that off my chest ! I loved playing an Avenger in a previous campaign. I teamed up with evil monsters, did deals with corrupt politicians, and eventually toppled two or three law-loving countries. I also betrayed some nasty characters and had the bumped off, a good turn for a change. Fantastic fun and done with some flair if I do say so myself. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:30:56 -0800 From: NICHOLAS A HUDSON Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Meks Thanks Diego. Just after I send the message I realized that I wasn't as clear as I meant to be. What I emant was jsut what you said: that meks are a class of similar beings. As for the hit dice, you could easily amke smaller or larger meks by modifying their statistics any way you want. There is no room for myriad possibilities involving meks, some with missilies, some who change forms (ala Macross), others who shoot fire. As robots can be configured as the builder pleases, virtually infite variety can result, including vast differation in hit dice. As for the 11 HD dog, ever play Counterstrike for Red Alert? It is a robotic dog, after all. Another mek sighting. In M2, Vengence of Alphaks (an epic dungeon crawl and war saga, that doesn't seem as though it can quite fit in with the chronology presented in Wrath of the Immortals), a Chaotic cleric, Coiger de Mory, has nine meks patrolling his castle/cave. No information is presented, and I assume that they are assumed simply to be constructs, as Coiger also has drolems, et c. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:44:08 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on RLaRue's "Traladaran Gypsies" Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: > The Dimension of Nightmares was extrapolated by Mystaros(or was that > Cthuludrew?) as a dimension where Lovecraftlike critters breed. My theory > is that Nightmare creatures from The Dreaming can escape to this Dimension > and gain a life of their own. > > If there is any interest, I'll post more on this later... > > Haavard. Yes! Please do it, I'm very interested. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:31:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Demihuman Clans In a message dated 97-07-15 16:46:43 EDT, davidk@Synopsys.COM (David Keyser) writes: << Ed Greenwood was supposed to publish the names of the clans of the Five Shires in Polyhedron. But if it was done, it does not show up in Polyhedron's index. I have not seen the names in other products, but I know that they were dropped by accident from GAZ8, so they are at TSR. >> The names of the clans are in Gaz 8 -- see pp. 37-54 of the Dungeon Master's booklet, the section entitled "A Visitor's Guide to the Five Shires". The listing for each town includes a list of "Clan Holds" -- presumably those are the names of the clans based in that town, right? Of course, if those are the clan names, note that they do not match any Halfling surnames given in Gaz 8 -- perhaps family names and surnames for Halflings are distinct? But if anybody at TSR has information beyond what is given in Gaz 8 -- I would love to see it. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1997 18:48:26 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) >>>>> "A" == Ambyrus writes: A> As you all know, alignment was different for OD&D. Your options A> were Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful. In AD&D, they introduced Good A> and Evil. I've always felt that the AD&D method of alignments fit a bit better than strict D&D. A lot of strict D&D made the judgment that Chaotic==Evil and Lawful==Good. This is not always the case. In DDA1: Arena of Thyatis, they describe Friedrich Lagmann as Lawful, but certainly not good. So, I think that the good/evil has been implicit in the character descriptions all throughout Mystara's history, though it might have required extra DM decisions. I haven't seen much of the AD&D stuff, but I doubt it changed much of the intent there. - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted Chemist who falls in acid will be tripping for weeks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:58:24 -0400 (EDT) From: DUFFISGOD@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) I believe the alignments wher supposed to imply more than they did I usually interpreted lawful as LG neutral as either LN or CN and chaotic as CE. it was more understandable top update them in ad&d because what do you do with a character like prince malachie who should be CE but is Way closer to CG but even further from LG. duff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:27:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 Wassellj@aol.com wrote: > In Anthony Hope's 'The Prisoner of Zenda' there is the Count of Hentzau. An > experienced and ruthless killer, but a magnificent romantic character. > Running from a sword fight with the hero he escapes by diving headlong out > of the window and into the castle moat. Stopping only to turn and tell the > hero that 'he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day'. Heck, for that matter, there's one of the greatest (IMO) "villains" of all time, Neocount Gerald Tarrant from CS Friedman's _Coldfire Trilogy_. He is "evil" and selfish (probably NE in D&D terms), but he is one of the two main characters in the book (and the most interesting of all of them, to boot.) > To say that people who want to play evil characters need psychiatrists is > absolute rubbish. These are probably the people who won't need a > psychiatrist, because they understand the barriers between fact and fiction. Personally, I don't much care for alignment, since I don't believe in absolutes in terms of morality anyway. People just don't fit into "black or white" molds, and I don't like playing characters that do. Very few of the characters I've ever played are either wholly good or wholly evil, and of the few that were, they had specific reasons for being so. I think it is much more fun to play morally ambiguous characters, and I tend not to use alignment in my campaigns at all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:34:53 +0800 (WST) From: Jason MURPHY Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 Wassellj@aol.com wrote: > > << One of my primary reasons for roleplaying is to assume the identity of of > someone other than myself. To take actions that i wouldn't normally take in > real life, or can't take in real life. To be the hero that we always see in > the movies. To be able to wield weapons like an expert. These are some of > the biggest reasons that people roleplay for. In real life, we can't spend > all our time learning to wield a battle-axe in hopes that we will one day > prove to a king that we are trustworthy enough to mount his Ruby dragon. >> > > Absolutely. Have you lot that can't understand the attraction of an evil > character never seen an anti-hero in a book or film and wanted to play that > character ? > also betrayed some nasty characters and had the bumped off, a good turn for a > change. Fantastic fun and done with some flair if I do say so myself. > > > > Actually i probably do need a psyche type guy to assess me, but that is beside the point. :> Anyone remeber Test of the Warlords. What a great module. I actually decided that my character was going to play a political villain and go against the King of Nrwold and side with Thyatis against my fellow PC's. This i obviously kept a secret from everone except the DM. This villainy was teamed up with the fact that i was playing a fighter with a str of 7, and cha of 18 and fairly high int. During the adventure i curried favour with King Ericall, by exposing treachory withing the PC's. Thiss treachory was all a frame up by me of course. It resulted in one PC being executed and another escaping just before execution. Alas i was deafeated in the end when the big battle came and i traitorously joined with the thyatian... we were defeated. But the politics an such made this one of the most enjoyable adventures ever. Throughout the entire adventure the only things that i actually killed were creatures present in the small mini adventures that occured during the campaign. And with such a low str there werent to many of those either. All in all i would say playing a decidedly evil character does have its merits. Jason "I dont believe in ism's i just believe in me" John Lennon said it first but Ferris Beuller said it better. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #111 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #112 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, July 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 112 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:32:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-15 19:34:42 EDT, you write: << Glad I got that off my chest ! I loved playing an Avenger in a previous campaign. I teamed up with evil monsters, did deals with corrupt politicians, and eventually toppled two or three law-loving countries. I also betrayed some nasty characters and had the bumped off, a good turn for a change. Fantastic fun and done with some flair if I do say so myself. >> You must have had a great DM! I just know that the players are going to ruin my campaign by trying to befriend Bargle and Hendriks! That would be just lik reading a book with a bad ending! - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:06:56 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 Wassellj@aol.com wrote: > > > In Anthony Hope's 'The Prisoner of Zenda' there is the Count of Hentzau. An > > experienced and ruthless killer, but a magnificent romantic character. > > Running from a sword fight with the hero he escapes by diving headlong out > > of the window and into the castle moat. Stopping only to turn and tell the > > hero that 'he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day'. > > Heck, for that matter, there's one of the greatest (IMO) "villains" of > all time, Neocount Gerald Tarrant from CS Friedman's _Coldfire Trilogy_. > He is "evil" and selfish (probably NE in D&D terms), but he is one of the > two main characters in the book (and the most interesting of all of them, > to boot.) Tarrant is most definately Lawful Evil, the powers he serves require far to much of a commitment to allow anything less. Remember the entire first book happens because he might not have completely kept a promise. Making him definately Lawful. And I think making a pact with the single most evil entity known or unknown to mankind is grounds for being termed Evil. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > This may have nothing to do with my initial post(I posted this whole Evil > thing by the way), but it is just something that I am trying to understand. > > As you all know, alignment was different for OD&D. Your options were > Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful. > In AD&D, they introduced Good and Evil. Now, my question is: How much does > this affect everything? I mean, in the AD&D makeover that Mystara got, the > alignments were updated in an AD&D format, and a lot of the NPC's got updated > alignments. I want to know if the three original alignments meant something > different then, than they do now. Did it have anything to do with the > characters morals, or was it an incomplete type of alignment? Can someone > please gimme some feedback...thanx > -Ambyrus Flavion Vylestraan > The OD&D alignment system was supposed to be whether you followed the law or not. This isn't quite the way it actually worked, but that was the way it was described. OD&D assumes quite a bit about the law, mostly that its always fair and just and morally correct. And that its the same everywhere. Orcs are described as Chaotic, but they have laws, and their laws see nothing wrong with (and perhaps may even require) the occasional raid on humans and demi-humans. Just as human law does not consider the death of an Orc murder. If you live in the Black Eagle Barony, does a Lawful character follow the obviously wrong or unjust laws even though they are created by a person who cares nothing for law? Basically I've always considered Lawful alignment as either Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral or (in rare cases) Neutral Good. Neutral Alignment is usually Neutral (Good|Neutral|Evil) which ever fits best. Sometimes these characters wind up best fitting under Chaotic Good. Chaotic could be anything from Chaotic Evil (which is what OD&D usually meant by Chaotic though not always) to Neutral Evil or even Lawful Evil. Pretty much OD&D was based on the status quo. Thanatos is Chaotic in OD&D, he goes against the established order. So is Orcus. But in terms of AD&D alignments Thanatos tends to follow the rules, true he bends them to the point of unrecognizability every chance he gets. He has a sense of planning and organization, logical methods, standard tactics. I'd call him Lawful Evil, perverting the system to further his own devious ends. Orcus on the other hand has as his general method: SMASH! KILL! DESTROY! No organization, no planning, just mayhem and spontaneous destruction. Definately Chaotic Evil. Hope that helps a little. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:10:05 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: [Mystara] Razud Does anybody know anything at all about Razud or his goals, etc. WotI isn't very helpful. It says he helps those who are self-sufficient (I assume this means those who try to be since if they were self sufficient they wouldn't need him). I've been trying to think of abilities (granted powers or spheres of access) his specialty priests would have but I can't come up with much. I don't even know what kind of spells he would grant. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) Ambyrus@aol.com pontificated: > > As you all know, alignment was different for OD&D. Your options were > Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful. > In AD&D, they introduced Good and Evil. Now, my question is: How much does > this affect everything? I mean, in the AD&D makeover that Mystara got, the > alignments were updated in an AD&D format, and a lot of the NPC's got updated > alignments. I want to know if the three original alignments meant something > different then, than they do now. Did it have anything to do with the > characters morals, or was it an incomplete type of alignment? Can someone > please gimme some feedback...thanx IMO, D&D at first was intended as a simpler game of AD&D, and they simplify the alignment down to three, but with Law and Chaos just as cooler ways of saying Good and Evil. Then they seems to try to change it later with Law and Chaos go back to more of their oringal meaning with Good and Evil axis added back in. This, I think, is most evidend in monster descriptions. In the Red and Blue box, Lawful creature is good and Chaoic creature is evil, but in later boxes, they have creatures that are Chaoic, but good. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:50:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > You must have had a great DM! I just know that the players are going to > ruin my campaign by trying to befriend Bargle and Hendriks! That would be > just lik reading a book with a bad ending! "Befriend" Bargle and Hendriks? Those two-timing, backstabbing, sons of bitches? I'd let 'em try. 'Course, I'm often a cruel and callous DM to my peons... err, players. ;) If they want to be evil, make sure they know exactly what evil is all about. The good guys always win because they have teamwork; the baddies always betray one another, as a general rule. Let them find out for themselves just how evil and nasty and tough it can be to play an evil character in Mystara. Lots of things worse than they hanging out there... and even if they do survive and choose not to repent of their evil ways, make sure they're always looking over their shoulders for someone as nasty as them to come along and stab them in the back. Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:10:42 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] More on RLaRue's "Traladaran Gypsies" Hi! >If there is any interest, I'll post more on this later... Cthulhu and Sandman in Mystara, sounds ..ehh .. fun. POST IT, please! *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:16:08 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) At 05:27 PM 7/15/97 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Personally, I don't much care for alignment, since I don't believe in >absolutes in terms of morality anyway. People just don't fit into "black >or white" molds, and I don't like playing characters that do. Very few of >the characters I've ever played are either wholly good or wholly evil, >and of the few that were, they had specific reasons for being so. I think >it is much more fun to play morally ambiguous characters, and I tend not >to use alignment in my campaigns at all. My feelings exactly! In fact, a while ago I found an interesting file on the net called the RPG Personal Code. The document was put forth as an alternative to traditional Alignment. Basically, it asks a whole BUNCH of questions about the character, including details of their life up until they started adventuring. Most of the questions are judgement calls -- would you lend money to a friend who needed it, would you lend money to a stranger who needed it. When would you consider killing another sentient being? Do you enjoy killing? If so why? Would you ever commit torture? Would you obey a law you felt was wrong? The groups I play with use this by getting each player to answer the questions for their character instead of 'selecting' an Alignment. For the sake of spells that need alignment, is is usually fairly easy to determine roughly what alignment the results fit to. I find this method to be more free-form and interesting -- every character has different reasons for responding in the same or different ways to different questions. We also update the codes as the player's mature. I usually leave the original notes there with square brackets [] indicating what has been removed or changed. For example, I have a female MU from Minrothad who was very naive when she started adventuring (Me: "Do we have to kill these poor innocent Kobolds we captured? They haven't done anything to us and we've invaded their home?" One of my companions: "This country [Karmeikos] is at WAR with these creatures!" Me: "Yes, but these men weren't fighting us until we attacked their home. We should just tie them up so that they won't be in our way." Another of my companions: "Fine! Anything to get moving again!" Needless to say, they escaped their bonds and we ended up having to kill them anyway.) My character has since been introduced to the realities of Adventuring and is now less hesitant to kill when necessary. Thus, her personal code has been updated to reflect this change in attitude. If anyone is interested, I believe I still have a copy of the original Personal Code text document, with the author's name and other info in it. I also have a Word 97 Document Template that is based on it and contains what we actually use for our characters -- it is a much shortened version, providing only a few questions that we felt were the most useful for our purposes. I'd be willing to email both to anyone who would like it. (BTW: IF all you are doing is responding to say "please send me a copy", just write directly to me at strawberry@jamm.com, there's no point in filling up the mailing list with lots of "me too's" ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:24:02 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] Befriending Evil NPC's (Was Re: Horrible class ...) At 09:50 PM 7/15/97 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >> You must have had a great DM! I just know that the players are going to >> ruin my campaign by trying to befriend Bargle and Hendriks! That would be >> just lik reading a book with a bad ending! > >"Befriend" Bargle and Hendriks? Those two-timing, backstabbing, sons of >bitches? I'd let 'em try. > [...] Cthulhudrew, you beat me too it! I was planning on saying pretty much the same thing. Ambyrus, go ahead and let your "Evil" Characters try to side with Bargle and Hendriks, and let Bargle and Hendriks make them think that they are the best of friends -- and then let the two Evil Ones use the PC's for the patsy's they are, getting them to do much of their "dirty work" and then discarding them when they get into trouble. The problem with 'befriending' a coniving Evil mastermind is that, to them, you are but an insect -- potentially useful for the pollination or germination of some great plan, but ultimately deserving of no more than being crushed beneath a boot heel. They will promise you fame, fortune, glory and aid, but when you get caught they will abandon you to find other useful minions. I might also add that, at least in all the D&D games/modules I've ever seen, ultimately, Good always Prevails over Evil. Let your PC's find that out by direct experience -- if they then want to continue their Evil ways, they will have to learn how to be tricky and look out for their own interests as a result. Could make for an interesting campaign in the long run. On the other hand, they may change their minds and opt for the Good Hero who will ultimately prevail. Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:19:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Wassellj@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Befriending Evil NPC's (Was Re: Horrible class ...) In a message dated 16/07/97 16:02:59, you write: << Cthulhudrew, you beat me too it! I was planning on saying pretty much the same thing. Ambyrus, go ahead and let your "Evil" Characters try to side with Bargle and Hendriks, and let Bargle and Hendriks make them think that they are the best of friends -- and then let the two Evil Ones use the PC's for the patsy's they are, getting them to do much of their "dirty work" and then discarding them when they get into trouble. >> Point taken, that evil characters are not to be trusted. But would it not be wrong for you to manipulate the fortunes of your characters and say that they can never win, just because there is a hang up about Evil Characters. If your Evil Character, or Avenger as this started out, is of high enough level and has the necessary cunning then why not have them befriend Bargle. It might well be Bargle who finds himself swimming with the fishes when he is no longer helpful. That wouldn't be easy because he does not trust anyone. But D&D campaigns are all about toppling evil villians, evil characters should be able to do it - just as the good guys can. Think about it an Avenger within the Black Eagle Barony might have a lot more opportunites at getting to Bargle over the Dinner table or out on a mission. Rather than that noble Paladin who battles his way into the Fort, through all the guards on the lower levels, and into Bargle's chambers for a head on fight. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:47:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Alignment (Was: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion)) On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > My feelings exactly! In fact, a while ago I found an interesting file > on the net called the RPG Personal Code. The document was put forth as > an alternative to traditional Alignment. Basically, it asks a whole BUNCH > of questions about the character, including details of their life up until > they started adventuring. Most of the questions are judgement calls -- > would you lend money to a friend who needed it, would you lend money to > a stranger who needed it. When would you consider killing another sentient > being? Do you enjoy killing? If so why? Would you ever commit torture? > Would you obey a law you felt was wrong? Interesting. It sounds a little like the Personality Traits that were introduced in GAZ7: The Northern Reaches. I rather liked the PT's there, and think they could fit into an alignment niche rather well (in lieu of Chaos/Law/etc, that is). For instance, a "Detect Alignment" spell, in the absence of alignments, could be used to detect extreme traits in the PT system ("You sense he is very dogmatic/brave/etc"). Or you could develop multiple "Detect alignment" spells, one per axis (ie, one that detects extremes in the Brave/Cowardly axis, etc). > The groups I play with use this by getting each player to answer the > questions for their character instead of 'selecting' an Alignment. For > the sake of spells that need alignment, is is usually fairly easy to > determine roughly what alignment the results fit to. I find this method > to be more free-form and interesting -- every character has different > reasons for responding in the same or different ways to different questions. I, too, prefer using a general "alignment" detection, as proposed above. "You sense that this individual seems to be very selfish" or, better, "there is an aura of darkness about this individual"- to give a more vague sense that it is up to the players to determine. What's the darkness from? Is he evil, under a curse, or carrying some dark secret? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:52:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) the original D&D rules had only three alignments ... lawful, neutral, and chaotic. This was not just a "cooler version" of good and evil; rather nobody had good and evil in mind at the time (i've always thought the idea that *any* D&D character is good is kind of stupid, since to my mind violence and extreme self-interest are the definition of evil ... and almost every character i've ever seen fits both of these ...) ... the idea was that some characters were aligned with law and order and the status quo, and some were aligned against it ... which makes no judgement on the relative value of the two. these terms may have been inspired by the Elric of Melnibone series, where the great struggle is between law and chaos and everyone is basically more or less evil ... the hero murders his wife, among thousands of other people ... the good/evil axis was added to the lawful/chaotic one later, with the advent of AD&D in the late 70's. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Ambyrus@aol.com pontificated: > > > > As you all know, alignment was different for OD&D. Your options were > > Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful. > > In AD&D, they introduced Good and Evil. Now, my question is: How much does > > this affect everything? I mean, in the AD&D makeover that Mystara got, the > > alignments were updated in an AD&D format, and a lot of the NPC's got updated > > alignments. I want to know if the three original alignments meant something > > different then, than they do now. Did it have anything to do with the > > characters morals, or was it an incomplete type of alignment? Can someone > > please gimme some feedback...thanx > > IMO, D&D at first was intended as a simpler game of AD&D, > and they simplify the alignment down to three, but with Law and > Chaos just as cooler ways of saying Good and Evil. Then they > seems to try to change it later with Law and Chaos go back to > more of their oringal meaning with Good and Evil axis added > back in. This, I think, is most evidend in monster descriptions. > In the Red and Blue box, Lawful creature is good and Chaoic > creature is evil, but in later boxes, they have creatures that > are Chaoic, but good. > > John Yu > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:48:22 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Udal Law Apparently this didn't come through the first time, so I apologise if you're reading this for the second time. So did anyone read my post on using Udal Law in the Northern Reaches? I haven't heard back from anyone. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:46:03 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Alignment YET ANOTHER which didn't get through first time. On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >Personally, I don't much care for alignment, since I don't believe in >absolutes in terms of morality anyway. People just don't fit into "black >or white" molds, and I don't like playing characters that do. Very few of >the characters I've ever played are either wholly good or wholly evil, >and of the few that were, they had specific reasons for being so. I think >it is much more fun to play morally ambiguous characters, and I tend not >to use alignment in my campaigns at all. I agree completely here. Alignment has always been a problem for me in D&D. The problem is principally in NPC alignment since we generally ignore PC alignment after writing whatever one the PCs chose on their character sheets. The question is, how much does "Lawful" tell you about an NPC? When I was slightly younger, "L" in a character would tell me "he's good", "C" that "he's evil". But that has been getting less and less useful as the years have passed. AD&D alignments are perhaps a little more defining, but not necessarily better. What do two CE characters have in common? What does being evil *mean* when we don't know what lies behind that evil? Is it mere selfishness, or a desire for power, or what? This is usually not so much a problem with major NPCs as it is with minor ones who have few details and don't "interact" much with the setting around them. For example, some of the Glatrian Princes. Dolores (Synn) is clearly a nasty, plotting, scheming creature of entropy, so we understand her without even reading the "C" or "?E" of her alignment. But what about Prince Jaggar? I always thought he was good, as well as being Lawful, which probably equates to AD&D LN. But no, apparently he is LE. What is the basis for this? And there are far worse examples in less detailed settings such as the Isle of Dawn and the lesser areas of the DotE set. Wouldn't it be better to try to summarise the character and motivations of a character than their (meaningless) "alignment"? We can tell much more by knowing that the Furmenglaives are aligned with Thyatis and are "reluctant lycanthropes" than that they are "L". Perhaps this is one reason why I am so opposed to "evil" PCs - truly evil in my eyes is not a realistic approach. You might say your character is CE and be out for yourself all the time, but it would be nigh-on impossible to be evil 100 % of the time. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:43:19 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Befriending Evil NPC's (Was Re: Horrible class ...) Jenni wrote: ><< Cthulhudrew, you beat me too it! I was planning on saying pretty much > the same thing. Ambyrus, go ahead and let your "Evil" Characters try to > side with Bargle and Hendriks, and let Bargle and Hendriks make them think > that they are the best of friends -- and then let the two Evil Ones use > the PC's for the patsy's they are, getting them to do much of their "dirty > work" and then discarding them when they get into trouble. >> Firstly, I agree with Jenni and Cthuludrew about this. Evil villains are simply not to be made friends with - it's not in their nature. Sooner or later they will betray or otherwise discard the PCs when a more fruitful road appears to them. Of course, there's nothing to say the PCs can't do this first - the point is simply that Bargle and von Hendriks would not make good, reliable allies. On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 Wassellj@aol.com wrote: >Point taken, that evil characters are not to be trusted. But would it not be >wrong for you to manipulate the fortunes of your characters and say that they >can never win, just because there is a hang up about Evil Characters. Let me see now... no. The reason being that the so-called "hang up" about evil characters is that they are evil. In my campaigns the good guys often win, at least in the end. I think this is partly due to the action of the PCs, but it's also the view I have of Mystara - good wins through eventually, with a lot of toil and strife in between. Things may be bad, but they will eventually change for the better. Indeed many good campaigns are based on that very premise. Firstly, if consistency is to be maintained between campaigns (which is by no means necessary), this should be carried over into an evil campaign. More importantly, the DM has to challenge the PCs, and in an evil campaign if the evil PCs are allowed to stomp all over the world it will descend into unreality. The fact is, bad guys are caught... eventually. Just my opinion, of course. :-) >If your Evil Character, or Avenger as this started out, is of high enough >level and has the necessary cunning then why not have them befriend Bargle. > It might well be Bargle who finds himself swimming with the fishes when he >is no longer helpful. That wouldn't be easy because he does not trust >anyone. (1) Bargle would not want to become someone else's lapdog. (2) Bargle is hard to befriend because he is completely out for himself. (3) Bargle is more likely to pretend to be friends and then betray at the best opportunity. Yes, the PCs can get involved with Bargle in a non-good-guy way, but no it won't turn out very well for them, because Bargle is a very experienced villain. Even if they double-cross him themselves, he is likely to have already done something rather troublesome for them. >But D&D campaigns are all about toppling evil villians, evil characters >should be able to do it - just as the good guys can. Think about it an >Avenger within the Black Eagle Barony might have a lot more opportunites at >getting to Bargle over the Dinner table or out on a mission. Rather than >that noble Paladin who battles his way into the Fort, through all the guards >on the lower levels, and into Bargle's chambers for a head on fight. Yes, bad PCs can topple bad guys just as good guys can, and in more diverse ways. They have all the same options plus a whole new set involving trickery and deceit, as well as the ability to replace the evil villain once he is defeated. But then, a Paladin can still come along and cause major problems for the new PC villain. Even in an evil campaign, there should always be good guys to try to topple the bad PCs. :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:44:55 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Evil PCs Another one that didn't get through the first time. What's up, Leroy? On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: >Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk (Thorfinn Tait) wrote : >>The problem is, I just don't understand why people would ever want to >>play a truly evil character. (snip) >>Most of all, what fun is it? What's so great about being able to run >>around killing, hurting and being generally nasty to people? >>If you wouldn't do it (or want to do it) in real life, why do it in a game? > >One of my primary reasons for roleplaying is to assume the identity of of >someone other than myself. To take actions that i wouldn't normally take in >real life, or can't take in real life. To be the hero that we always see in >the movies. To be able to wield weapons like an expert. These are some of >the biggest reasons that people roleplay for. In real life, we can't spend >all our time learning to wield a battle-axe in hopes that we will one day >prove to a king that we are trustworthy enough to mount his Ruby dragon. I agree with all this - more specifically (for me), it is far easier to act "heroically" and to "do the right thing" and be "honourable" in role-playing. It isn't as complex as it is in modern life, because not only is the game set in the equivalent of the past, it is also a world of strife and struggles, heroes and demons, etc. I also agree with your saying you can pretend to do things that you wouldn't or couldn't do in real life, but only to a certain extent. The thing is, I don't see why you would ever want to pretend to do things that you don't do in real life because you don't *want* to. Hence my dislike of evil characters - I wouldn't want to play with that sort of motivations or actions. >Some people might only wish to see things from the hero's perspective, but >how about attempting to play as an evil character. To see what they go >through in life, how they become evil, and what evil can drive them to do. > The advantages and disadvantages of playing someone looking at the world >from the other way around. On the other hand I can see why you might want to do the kind of experiment you are describing above. A great many authors do that with their own villains - in fact nowadays it is almost required in order to make villains credible. But I have not yet met a player who wants to play an evil character "seriously" (ie as you describe above). I have one friend (cousin actually) who always insists he wants to play an evil character (examples: in D&D a Storm Soldier, a Nagpa; in MERP a Nazgul, a Half- Orc), but it is never based on this kind of reasonable idea, rather he wants (1) to irritate me (at least I have to assume this since I know he knows it does) and (2) to cause as much turmoil in the gaming world as he possibly can (ie he doesn't even pretend to view it as a real place). This has the general effect of making the other players' characters want to kill his character, and indeed the other players annoyed at him. Now I know this is probably an extreme example of the problem, but this is my experience and what I am arguing against. >People are driven to roleplaying because of the freedom of character. >Different races, classes, and alignments are the major traits that make up >the difference of characters. If you don't like playing evil that's fine, but >why not try a campaign with evil characters, or just one of the characters >evil, or being driven evil by someone or something. It's worth a try. I think people role-play simply to have fun by taking on the role of someone who is often different from them and lives in a different world/situation from real life. It allows you to "live" in a different way in which you can experience a range of feelings and emotions not normally easily accesible in the real world (at its best, that is). Short of that kind of drama, it lets you have fun! Plain and simple. In the highest form, I agree this viewpoint could really add great depth to a campaign, and also get the players involved in a unique way. But in a less ambitious campaign, especially where the players are only really interested in "hack and slash", getting treasure and cool magic items, and refuse to get involved in anything which smells of "plot" or find out anything which might make the setting more believable, evil is *not* a good idea. Again, I am obviously talking about my own position here, and I would really love to have players who were more interested in role-playing than roll-playing, but I don't. :-( Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:17:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Befriending Evil NPC's (Was Re: Horrible class ...) On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 Wassellj@aol.com wrote: > >Point taken, that evil characters are not to be trusted. But would it not be > >wrong for you to manipulate the fortunes of your characters and say that they > >can never win, just because there is a hang up about Evil Characters. Though I may have implied it in my earlier post on evil characters, the fact is, I wouldn't make it impossible for evil characters to win. Not at all. They could certainly win, but they would have a number of problems to contend with that "good" characters might not have (and the reverse is true of good characters as well) The "evil" characters will find it more difficult to find reliable allies than "good" characters; evil people are a generally untrustworthy, treacherous lot. They would have to watch their backs for betrayals. It would be difficult, particularly at high levels, when they are running dominions, etc, to find allies, etc. I wouldn't make it so they couldn't succeed, just (perhaps) a bit more difficult for them, and certainly give them many different problems than "good" characters. I don't have a hangup about evil characters, at least not any more than I have about one-dimensional, stereotypical characters (I'm a Chaotic Evil megalomaniac! Why? Because it's my alignment!!!); I'm not a fan of any sort of a one-trick pony like that. As long as they have some depth, I don't care if they're good or evil, neutral, or politically correct. :) > Yes, the PCs can get involved with Bargle in a non-good-guy way, but no > it won't turn out very well for them, because Bargle is a very > experienced villain. Even if they double-cross him themselves, he is > likely to have already done something rather troublesome for them. Certainly. And, if the heroes... err, villains, are scheming and clever enough, I personally wouldn't have any problems with them one-upping Bargle. They'd just better be prepared for the result... > Yes, bad PCs can topple bad guys just as good guys can, and in more > diverse ways. They have all the same options plus a whole new set > involving trickery and deceit, as well as the ability to replace the > evil villain once he is defeated. Very true. They also have all sorts of baggage that good guys don't have- bad reputation ("honor among thieves?" Bah!) being a major factor. It's tougher to get someone to help you with a bad reputation than a good one, almost universally; neither the good guys nor baddies trust you. The reverse is true as well- being evil can certainly get you contacts and open doors that being notoriously goody-goody won't. I guess my main point, then, is that if you're going to play good or bad, or whatever, you'd just better be prepared for the results. :) > But then, a Paladin can still come along and cause major problems for > the new PC villain. Even in an evil campaign, there should always be > good guys to try to topple the bad PCs. :-) There's another drawback to being evil. Those obnoxious Paladins who are determined to snuff out your existence in the name of "truth, justice," and all that rot... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:27:05 PDT From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Udal Law >So did anyone read my post on using Udal Law in the Northern Reaches? I >haven't heard back from anyone. > >Thorf. > Yes I read it Thorf, and I think it's interesting for use with Soderfjord. Sounds pretty cool for this land that seems lawless (at least to other, civilized lands that use written laws). Is it in contradiction with anything written in Gaz 7, or was this subject not thoroughly covered in it? If it was left open, we could do a write-up on it, eg in the next almanac, as a correspondant for the almanac, who goes there to cover the events in Soderfjord in lieu of Astrid, discovers the strange customs and laws of the land (Astrid never made a report on this, as it was normal to her and she would have never had imagined that the udal law could look strange to others). __________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau Primary Email: herve@hotmail.com Also: hmusseau@compuserve.com Also: musseauh@esiee.fr (old, no more in use) Homepage: http://www.esiee.fr/~musseauh (not for very long) I'm a QSQWBEEEGGNFR Mystaran ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #112 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #113 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, July 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 113 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:13:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs Well, I have other problems besides alignment, actually. Well ,I'll explain. I'm 17. All of my other friends are like 21. You would think they would be more mature than me, but..... Most of my friends have been playing AD&D a few years before me. They are used to Forgotten Realms and DragonLance, etc. I made up this hand-out for the players(as I'm trying to start my first successful,Mystara campaign, or any campaign for that matter). It's all about what your Karameikan character knows about his world. One of my friends said that he thought the people who created the races of Karameikos was racist (he jests). He explains that they go all into detail about these Thyatians and Traladarans (the humans was his point), and they have this short explanation for the elves saying that they are aloof and merry. In saying this he is concluding that elves are clearly a superior race when compared to humans and that they shouldn't be saying that the elves are so un-serious and nieve(sp?). He always gives me a hard time. Now he won't give me a straight answer about what he wants to be--he keeps saying that he wants to be a crippled Thyatian kid,his way of joking around. Can anyone identify with this problem with players, and if so, can you offer me some advice on how to handle them. I don't know, maybe I'm just too serious, but that's just me. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:07:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs Okay. I've been trying to avoid this topic, since I tryly *hate* alignments. As I see it, Alignments is a good way to ruin role playing. These days, none of the campaigns I am involved with use alignment, and I truly feel that this has helped me develope more realistic characters, which has proven to be a key to successful roleplaying. I dont want to say anything bad about Hack and Slash. I've had a lot of fun Crawling through dungeons, but at one point you have to ask yourself, why is my character doing this? At one time, I was playing a Krynnish Half elf fighter who had taken it upon himself to rid the worlf of all evil. He was determined to kill any evil creature that crossed his path. He would use any means neccesary to do this. I decided that CG would be a good choise in alignment. During play I and a lawful Good cleric/mage attacked and killed an old man because a detection spell revealed that he was of evil aligment. Now, my DM got really angry with this and said that since the man had never done anything to us, we had been roleplaying poorly. WE had acted against our aligment. Because of this, we lost quite a bit of experience points from this adventure. Maybe he was right, but that isnt really my point. Maybe CG wasn't the right choise of aligment for my character, but what I did was to make up a personality for my character and acted according to that. (Maybe a quite stereotypical character bu never the less) I had not IMHO been playing my character poorly. The problem was that our interpretations of the aligments differed. However, what was written on my character sheet decided how I should have acted, not how I had been playing my character all along. Another matter: The Deck of Many Things(or whatever it is called) is an item which has appeared frequently in our AD&D campaigns. There are many reasons why I dont like this item, but one especially: the aligment change. This is IMHO much worse than killing a character. At one time I was playing a female Bard, who became NE from this deck. After this happened she killed one fellow player, took his magical items, ran away, and was retired. Cthulhudrew mentioned the personality trait system from the Northern Reaches Gaz. For those of you who like this, I heartliy recommend that you take a look at the Traits&Passions system in Pendragon RPG. It is very similar to the Northern Reaches system only more detailed and can easily be used with D&D and AD&D and many other systems. More rambling in my next mail.. Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:22:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: [Mystara] Evil Campaigns As I see it, evil PCs appear in two types of campaigns. (1) All the PCs are evil. This is usually the best option. In an evil campaign, the characters will probably stick to eachother cooperating as long as they dont make any profits from betraying eachother. However many such campaigns tend to get kinda silly, like ORCs of Thar Campaigns. One reason for this, I think is that evil characters are pathetic. Neutral characters are okay, they can be quite merciless and do many cruel things for their own gains. Evil characters tend to be cruel because they like it. They twist words and laws, not merely for self interest, but because they are completely psycho. Ecil characters are not only selfish to the extreme, but they have to see others fail in order for their success to be complete. I personally have problems playing a character I cant relate to in any way. I can enjoy playing a MAchiavellan typer neutral character, but no evil ones (2) Mixed alignments The problem with this kinda group is: why on earth do the characters hang out together. There are many ways to explain this, but in most cases it is ignored. Okay, maybe the other characters dont know that one of their friends is evil, but the will find out. HAs any of you played a campaign where the characters have decided to go their separate ways because of internal conflicts? In one campaign that I was involved with we had a group of adventurers travelling with an evil Wizard. We all knew he was evil, but he could also easily destroy us, so we didn't object to him coming along. However, most of our time we spent plotting against him, we even tried to get outerplanar help to destroy him. It was fun in one way, however, when some PCs try to kill other PCs things tend to get a bit personal. Noone wants to see their character killed and especially not by your friends character. some of the fun is ruined... Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1997 11:13:08 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Evil PCs >>>>> "A" == Ambyrus writes: A> I made up this hand-out for the players(as I'm trying to start my A> first successful,Mystara campaign, or any campaign for that A> matter). It's all about what your Karameikan character knows about A> his world. Sounds very good. Would you consider posting it? A> One of my friends said that he thought the people who created the A> races of Karameikos was racist (he jests). He explains that they go A> all into detail about these Thyatians and Traladarans (the humans A> was his point), and they have this short explanation for the elves A> saying that they are aloof and merry. Well, the majority of Karamiekans might be racist. There are definitely racist cultures in Mystara, which strikes me as realistic, esp. considering the lack of contact most individuals in Karamiekos have with outsiders. A> In saying this he is concluding that elves are clearly a superior A> race when compared to humans and that they shouldn't be saying that A> the elves are so un-serious and nieve(sp?). Let him play the great Elven Rights activist then. Should spice up the campaign a lot. It certainly won't be easy on him, but might be thought provoking. A> He always gives me a hard time. Now he won't give me a straight A> answer about what he wants to be--he keeps saying that he wants to A> be a crippled Thyatian kid,his way of joking around. Ok, let him be one. What I'd do is let him joke around as much as he wants, but take him seriously. His crippled Thyatian kid could certainly be a good character for roleplaying if he took it seriously. And when the kid goes spouting off about how Elves are superior, he'd probably get brushed aside and not taken seriously. (He probably wouldn't get taken seriously in any case, since he's a kid.) I'd say he'd have to be a thief or a rake (from the Pearl Islands as well as DDA1, a Thyatian adventure). Big thing is, don't let him bug you. You are the DM, and he's going to have to start taking something seriously or he won't be playing in the campaign too long. - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted Mommy, what happens to your files when you die? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:57:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Priests Under AD&D Rules... On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > I know many on this list are anti-Forgotten Realms, > but anyone who has the opportunity should take a look at > Faiths & Avatars, a supplement detailing the FR gods and > their religions. Even if you don't like the Realms, this > book is chock full of examples of what variety, depth > and color can do for fantasy religion. Can you give a list of what kind of information this book (Faith and Avatars) give? Haavard. - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:52:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Wed, 9 Jul 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-08 13:56:34 EDT, DM writes: > > << ... At the end the Paladin founded his barony in the Isle of Dawn > and the Avenger went to live with him, doing a little scheming behind his > back (of course) >> > > Cute... Did they live happily forever after and have many children? :) > (Okay, that would be bad since they are cousins -- gotta watch 'em > paladin-types). Actually, marriage between cousins are very coomon in some cultures. Like in the Middle East. By marrying your cousin, you make sure that the wealth stays within the family. The family being much more important than the individual in such cultures as opposed to what most of us in the West are used to. So if these cousins were from Ylaruam it would proabably be okay... Haavard - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:31:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Wassellj@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Paladins the real horrible class ! jsmill >> said that There's another drawback to being evil. Those obnoxious Paladins who are determined to snuff out your existence in the name of "truth, justice," and all that rot... Well at least we can all agree that Paladins are obnoxious. If we are having so much trouble about evil characters and their alignments, what about those paladins. As I have always played Neutral or Chaotic characters, they seem just a little bit to zealous for my liking. Anyone heard of authoritarianism, where the law or state is absolute over the wishes of the individual ? Or are we straying away from Role-Playing and into politics ? The OD&D Paladins were lawful but those AD&D Paladins were lawful good. Is there a wider scope for the behaviour of OD&D paladins ? My apologies if I got that wrong as I have never played AD&D. Do they get to carry on a little less goody-goody than the normal obnoxious paladins ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:43:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Wassellj@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Neutral Fighters Did anyone else think that it was unfair that in OD&D lawful wandering fighters could be Paladins and that chaotic characters could be Avengers. Both with spell casting and turning abilities. Whilst neutral fighters could only be Knights, which was also open to other alignments ?!. I read something in Dragon about a Druidic Knight which seemed very good, but what if your character is neutral but not druidic by nature. Are there any other updates, articles, rules that I have missed ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:13:47 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Evil PCs Alan Shutko wrote: > > >>>>> "A" == Ambyrus writes: > > There are > definitely racist cultures in Mystara, which strikes me as realistic, > esp. considering the lack of contact most individuals in Karamiekos > have with outsiders. > One of the more interesting racist cultures are the Herathians; a bit ironic, considering one of Herath's nicknames is "the land of equality." Within Herath's borders men and women, and all the races (well except for those @#&$ goblins and phanatons) live and work side by side, mingling freely with no trace of inequity. The truth is, the true natives of Herath see ALL humans, demihumans, etc. as lesser beings; since they're all equally inferior, why pick on any one group? J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:48:00 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) At 00.00 16/07/97 -0400, you wrote: >The OD&D alignment system was supposed to be whether you followed the law >or not. This isn't quite the way it actually worked, but that was the way >it was described. Exactly. >OD&D assumes quite a bit about the law, mostly that its >always fair and just and morally correct. And that its the same >everywhere. And this sounds quite strange. You mentioned Orcs, but another example are Shadow Elves. Shadow Elves are considered chaotic (Gaz 5 and Creature Catalog) because according to surface elves (i.e. Alfheim) they're evil. But if you look at Gaz 13 you'll discover that Shadow Elves are mostly Lawful and only a very small group of them has a Chaotic alignment. Probably OD&D rules were written by Alfheim elves :-) Do surface elves work for TSR ? :) I've not converted Mystara to AD&D, but IMO Lafwul=Good, Neutral=Neutral and Chaotic=Evil. Whether Lawful is Lawful Good, Neutral Good or Chaotic Good it depends from the PC/NPc you're considering. BTW: don't you think the alignment language stuff is quite silly? (I've removed it from my campaign). ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:56:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) Haavard Roenne Faanes pontificated: > > Actually, marriage between cousins are very coomon in some cultures. Like > in the Middle East. By marrying your cousin, you make sure that the wealth > stays within the family. The family being much more important than the > individual in such cultures as opposed to what most of us in the West are > used to. > > So if these cousins were from Ylaruam it would proabably be okay... Actually, i think marriage between cousins is quite common in most regions during the middle ages. Even today, I believe several states in US allow for marriage between first cousins. I would think in Mystara, most nations allows marriage between cousins. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:23:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs Haavard Roenne Faanes pontificated: > > Okay. I've been trying to avoid this topic, since I tryly *hate* > alignments. As I see it, Alignments is a good way to ruin role playing. I think alignments help inexperience players to define their character more, makes it a little easier for them to roleplay, but it is probably not necessary for more experienced player, especially in a campaign that is not all black and white. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:16:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Neutral Fighters Wassellj@aol.com pontificated: > > Did anyone else think that it was unfair that in OD&D lawful wandering > fighters could be Paladins and that chaotic characters could be Avengers. > Both with spell casting and turning abilities. Whilst neutral fighters > could only be Knights, which was also open to other alignments ?!. Well, I think one of the problem is that both lawful and chaotic characters can easily find immortals to sponsor their generic causes (reduce the influence of the opposing side, etc). but as neutral characters don't have such a clear objective, it is more difficult for them to find immortal to grant them extra abilities. But if a neutral fighter can come up with a cause to fight for, that matches the goal of certain immortal, he can probably request for some extra power at the temple of that immortal. Basically sort as a payment for fighting in the name of the immortal. DM will have to come up with some approprate ability for the character. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:14:26 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Alignment On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >I, too, prefer using a general "alignment" detection, as proposed above. >"You sense that this individual seems to be very selfish" or, better, >"there is an aura of darkness about this individual"- to give a more >vague sense that it is up to the players to determine. What's the >darkness from? Is he evil, under a curse, or carrying some dark secret? And you can carry this further, too - a Helm of Alignment Changing will now change a character only in one of his most radical axes, eg from "lawful" to "chaotic", in the D&D sense of the words - ie from unselfish to completely selfish and self-centred. So if your character is very brave, he may end up very cowardly. On the other hand a less "extreme" character may only experience a subtle change, which is suiting to the kind of player who plays a less "black and white" character in the first place. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:17:40 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Befriending Evil NPC's (Was Re: Horrible class ...) > >The "evil" characters will find it more difficult to find reliable allies >than "good" characters; evil people are a generally untrustworthy, >treacherous lot. They would have to watch their backs for betrayals. It >would be difficult, particularly at high levels, when they are running >dominions, etc, to find allies, etc. I wouldn't make it so they couldn't >succeed, just (perhaps) a bit more difficult for them, and certainly give >them many different problems than "good" characters. > So, how can you put together an all-evil party ? When I played in Forgotten Realms we had a CE thief in our group and every session there was a discussion between him and the Paladin, with most of the others (2 CE and a true neutral) siding with the Paladin except my CN gnome. We managed to keep the group togheter until the thief was arrested, but it was quite difficult. I think a group made only out of CE PC would be unrealistic and very dofficult to manage. >I don't have a hangup about evil characters, at least not any more than I >have about one-dimensional, stereotypical characters (I'm a Chaotic Evil >megalomaniac! Why? Because it's my alignment!!!); CE? I'm Chaotic Neutral :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:06:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Alignments and a Proposal (was: Evil PCs) On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >Okay. I've been trying to avoid this topic, since I tryly *hate* >alignments. As I see it, Alignments is a good way to ruin role playing. I have to say that I agree with you, Haavard. I think that alignments were originally concieved of for two reasons: (1) to try to bring some realism to role-playing in an enforcable way, preventing first-time players and players who have problems with so-called "suspension of disbelief" from creating and playing contradictory characters; (2) to help the DM see what sort of people NPCs created by other DMs and designers are. To deal the the second point first, clearly NPC alignments do NOT work too well, as shown up nicely in both the controversy over the good-evil axis' part in D&D alignments and the (related) controversy in converting D&D alignments to AD&D. Equally clearly, the alignment system is neither accurate, nor necessary - - indeed often not even helpful - for experienced role-players, or even for beginning role-players who have a good grip on the "reality" of the game world. >Cthulhudrew mentioned the personality trait system from the Northern >Reaches Gaz. For those of you who like this, I heartliy recommend that you >take a look at the Traits&Passions system in Pendragon RPG. It is very >similar to the Northern Reaches system only more detailed and can easily >be used with D&D and AD&D and many other systems. While we're at it, MERP (Middle-earth Role-Playing) also has a good system for "alignments", which, much like GAZ7, involves picking descriptive words from lists and scales (along the lines of strong...weak, with about five words which fit in between, but with personality descriptions rather than physicality). You know, this alignments discussion could yet have some important consequences for our game if we want to carry it a little further. I know a while ago there was a lot of discussion of AD&D specialty priests, resulting now in a list which has most of the major Immortals listed. Well, why not do the same for the major NPCs, except this time we would be choosing not spell lists but personality descriptions? It could be quite fun, and would be a very useful resource for the Almanacs' Personalities sections and indeed for ironing out disagreements over some major NPCs' alignments (eg Jaggar von Drachenfels). So, are you interested? Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:34:40 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > Well, I have other problems besides alignment, actually. Well ,I'll >explain. I'm 17. All of my other friends are like 21. You would think they >would be more mature than me, but..... Sounds a bit familiar. Don't bother trying to make judgements based on age once you get to about 16 - they usually let you down. > Most of my friends have been playing AD&D a few years before me. They >are used to Forgotten Realms and DragonLance, etc. > I made up this hand-out for the players(as I'm trying to start my first >successful,Mystara campaign, or any campaign for that matter). It's all about >what your Karameikan character knows about his world. Sounds very interesting, and also very familiar. I put together three different perspectives of Thyatis (for my own Karameikan Campaign), based on the Dawn of the Emperors descriptions of "What Everyone Knows", one from the Thyatian character's point of view, the second from a Traladaran's, the third from an Alphatian's. Incidentally I think only one or two of my players actually read these... I'd love to see a copy of your hand-out. If anyone wants to see mine, I'll be happy to post them. >One of my friends said >that he thought the people who created the races of Karameikos was racist (he >jests). He explains that they go all into detail about these Thyatians and >Traladarans (the humans was his point), and they have this short explanation >for the elves saying that they are aloof and merry. In saying this he is >concluding that elves are clearly a superior race when compared to humans and >that they shouldn't be saying that the elves are so un-serious and >nieve(sp?). > He always gives me a hard time. Now he won't give me a straight answer >about what he wants to be--he keeps saying that he wants to be a crippled >Thyatian kid,his way of joking around. > Can anyone identify with this problem with players, and if so, can you >offer me some advice on how to handle them. I don't know, maybe I'm just too >serious, but that's just me. Yes, I routinely have this type of problem with my players, a few in particular who are notoriously hard to deal with. There are lots of ways to go in trying to deal with this problem, and to be honest I'm not sure which works best - it kinda depends on the situation (including all the little things which you probably didn't tell us which make it all the more awkward). First of all, you are not being too serious. I am currently having the same problem, which I think basically stems from the player's lack of respect for the "reality" of the game world. That is, they view it as a simple game, where they can do what they like within the rules, with no consequences except for those brought on through the rules. What I am describing is hack and slash, but it works for other situations too. Your player wants to be a crippled kid, but if you let him be one he will doubtless conveniently "forget" that he is crippled and only a kid every time it helps him. One way to deal with this, as someone suggested earlier, is to go ahead and allow him to be a crippled kid. Then, as soon as he tries to do something that the kid couldn't do, tell him so, and don't let him. He should either start to get frustrated and ask for a new, more sensible character, or else (as most DMs would hope without hope for) react by circumventing the restrictions in cunning and original ways, just as a kid would do - in other words, unless he for some reason wants to remain frustrated, he will either change to a more reasonable character or become far more realistic and fun in playing his current character. I think it's worth a try. One problem here is that it involves effectively a whole adventure possibly being spoilt for him, and possibly for everyone else, resulting in a lot of wasted effort from you. But the result might be worth it, if he becomes more reasonable. The simpler way is just to say "if you want to play, choose a reasonable character, or I'll choose one for you." This has the obvious disadvantage that he might simply say "fine, I won't play," which you prsumably want to avoid. Anyway, I hope I've helped you a little. Just remember you're not the only one with players like this! And don't get too frustrated. :-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:45:45 -0400 (EDT) From: DUFFISGOD@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs I had a similar problem with a group i played with my older brother. he would always say things like how he was going to burn my world to the ground. he even had a character who told everyone the world was round. at first i made him encounter difficulty. "what your crazy as a loon". but after that i just made him justify his characters. how did he know the world is round? how could he prove it? then i did some research and provided evidence that the world was flat. "how ya like dem apples." after he rolled up another character whose idea was that elves where the supreme race i just killed him off. I ironically did it with a heldannic knight who i use as kind of midevil skinheads. all in all my advice for difficult players is make it difficulut for them to be difficult. after that kill them. "It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety." isaac asimov duff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:19:53 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignments and a Proposal (was: Evil PCs) On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > You know, this alignments discussion could yet have some important > consequences for our game if we want to carry it a little further. I > know a while ago there was a lot of discussion of AD&D specialty > priests, resulting now in a list which has most of the major Immortals > listed. Well, why not do the same for the major NPCs, except this time > we would be choosing not spell lists but personality descriptions? It > could be quite fun, and would be a very useful resource for the > Almanacs' Personalities sections and indeed for ironing out > disagreements over some major NPCs' alignments (eg Jaggar von > Drachenfels). > > So, are you interested? Count me in Thorfinn. Only I'm going to Italy on Monday and will probably not be able to help any for about 14 days. Hope you guys will manage without me :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1997 18:26:11 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Evil PCs >>>>> "T" == Thorfinn Tait writes: T> I'd love to see a copy of your hand-out. If anyone wants to see T> mine, I'll be happy to post them. Yes, definitely interested! T> I think it's worth a try. One problem here is that it involves T> effectively a whole adventure possibly being spoilt for him, and T> possibly for everyone else, resulting in a lot of wasted effort T> from you. But the result might be worth it, if he becomes more T> reasonable. If he doesn't, it would probably still result in a spoiled adventure for all involved. (Besides, if he wants to go hack and slash without a plot, tell him to play Magic.) - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted You're working under a slight handicap. You happen to be human. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:36:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > And you can carry this further, too - a Helm of Alignment Changing will > now change a character only in one of his most radical axes, eg from > "lawful" to "chaotic", in the D&D sense of the words - ie from unselfish > to completely selfish and self-centred. Interesting. The thought hadn't occurred to me, to be quite honest. Huh. I kind of like it. Though I'd make it a bit easier to dispel than alignment changing helms in AD&D... something about forcing a character to change his personality without their consent has never really felt right to me... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:45:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-16 01:31:59 EDT, you write: << The OD&D alignment system was supposed to be whether you followed the law or not. This isn't quite the way it actually worked, but that was the way it was described. >> Actually, (waaay back when) OD&D's alignment was lifted from Moorcocks "Eternal Champion" series, notably the "Elric of Melnibone" line of books. Law, Chaos and even "Neutrality" (Balance) were actual "alliances", rather than simple ethical codes; morality had no part in it whatsoever. While there were some ethical considerations within the alliances, the major concern was what metaphysical/philosophical group you were allied with. The more modern ethical/moral characteristics developed early, by the Blue Book edition, and after that branched off into the D&D and AD&D versions. Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:58:11 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Actually, i think marriage between cousins is quite common in >most regions during the middle ages. Even today, I believe several >states in US allow for marriage between first cousins. I would >think in Mystara, most nations allows marriage between cousins. My dad has a cousin and a second cousin who are themselves first cousins to each other who are married. :-) It's not very common, but it does happen and it is legal here in Britain. From my experience of it, I have heard a few comments along the line of "aren't they a bit too closely related to each other?" but they usually end with a reply of "no." The only dodgy bit is that children have a higher chance of being handicapped in some way, but I don't think the risk is that much worse than normal for cousins. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:53:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [Mystara] Alignment On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>OD&D assumes quite a bit about the law, mostly that its >>always fair and just and morally correct. And that its the same >>everywhere. > >And this sounds quite strange. You mentioned Orcs, but another example are >Shadow Elves. Shadow Elves are considered chaotic (Gaz 5 and Creature >Catalog) because according to surface elves (i.e. Alfheim) they're evil. >But if you look at Gaz 13 you'll discover that Shadow Elves are mostly >Lawful and only a very small group of them has a Chaotic alignment. >Probably OD&D rules were written by Alfheim elves :-) >Do surface elves work for TSR ? :) > >I've not converted Mystara to AD&D, but IMO Lafwul=Good, Neutral=Neutral >and Chaotic=Evil. Whether Lawful is Lawful Good, Neutral Good or Chaotic >Good it depends from the PC/NPc you're considering. That's right - alignment is only valid from a certain point of view. I think some of the designers had different ideas about which view alignment was supposed to be from, which causes problems in our perceptions. Anyone who reads GAZ13 will come away thinking that the Shadow Elves are both Lawful and Good - though a little misinformed and naive. Of course they have their faults, but the strife between the Alfheim and Shadow Elves is mutually grounded in distrust, misinformation, resentment, jealousy and anger. The Shadow Elves are not the bad guys any more than the Alfheim Elves are the good guys. On the other hand, GAZ5 gives an entirely different view, wherein all Shadow Elves are the scum of the earth. It even goes so far as to say they are in league with orcs! The point is, in Mystara, just as in the real world, there really is *no* good or bad, lawful or chaotic, without a point of view. The world is such that it is likely there are no or very few truly good and lawful people, who don't have any prejudices at all (which by the way means no loyalties either, or more specifically no patriotism or loyalties to groups of people). So, we have chaotic orcs - do we consider them an anarchic bunch, a bunch of evil-doers, or a bunch of evil-doing anarchists? Or are they chaotic only from the point of view of the human cultures (specifically Thyatis and Karameikos)? Perhaps they are chaotic in that they break human laws but lawful in that they stick to what few laws they have for themselves? That would be much like the other side of this situation, because human cultures tend to have one rule for humans and quite another for orcs - it is not acceptable to murder a human, but killing orcs is considered pest control! But the real problem with taking lawful as good is that the rule only seems to hold true for certain sources, while others disagree. Eriadna, for instance, is listed as chaotic, but I am pretty sure she is not evil. Like most characters, she fits best into the neutral bracket - just as most people in real life would (I think). Similarly, Terari/Tylion is also Chaotic (isn't he?), but he is clearly what you might call "wizard chaotic" - that is, he is reclusive and self-absorbed due to his intense interest in magic (ie he's a 36th level m-u). >BTW: don't you think the alignment language stuff is quite silly? (I've >removed it from my campaign). Me too! I never really used it in the first place, and then I noticed it again after a while and thought "How ridiculous!" so stopped giving alignment languages to characters. Why should a lawful person be able to communicate without talking to another lawful person he has never met?!! That sort of communication is only usually possible in the real world with either a lasting and close friendship or intense training! Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #113 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #114 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Saturday, July 19 1997 Volume 02 : Number 114 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:54:51 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >> And you can carry this further, too - a Helm of Alignment Changing will >> now change a character only in one of his most radical axes, eg from >> "lawful" to "chaotic", in the D&D sense of the words - ie from unselfish >> to completely selfish and self-centred. > >Interesting. The thought hadn't occurred to me, to be quite honest. Huh. >I kind of like it. Though I'd make it a bit easier to dispel than >alignment changing helms in AD&D... something about forcing a character >to change his personality without their consent has never really felt >right to me... A bit hard to enforce, too. I mean, telling someone they're acting out of character is tricky enough under normal circumstances, but with the Helm it becomes outright annoying. Some players do have fun with them, though, as long as you make it relatively easy to get rid of the effect quite soon. I think if you were ever to force a player to deal with a Helm of Alignment Changing permanently it could be very damaging to both that player's enjoyment of the game and the campaign in general, unless you have very adaptable players who don't resent you messing with their characters' minds! Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:05:12 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignments and a Proposal (was: Evil PCs) On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 Haavard Roenne Faanes wrote: >On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >> You know, this alignments discussion could yet have some important >> consequences for our game if we want to carry it a little further. I >> know a while ago there was a lot of discussion of AD&D specialty >> priests, resulting now in a list which has most of the major Immortals >> listed. Well, why not do the same for the major NPCs, except this time >> we would be choosing not spell lists but personality descriptions? It >> could be quite fun, and would be a very useful resource for the >> Almanacs' Personalities sections and indeed for ironing out >> disagreements over some major NPCs' alignments (eg Jaggar von >> Drachenfels). >> >> So, are you interested? > >Count me in Thorfinn. Okay. Is this a thing we should do on or off the list? Personally I think on sounds more interesting. That way we can discuss individuals with a far wider range of opinions, and also people can lurk and only speak out when they really have something to say in a way not possible off the list. In any case, the first thing we need to do is compile an ordered list of those questions/adjectives we want to use, and then shorten it to a few different categories. I know there are already a few of these lists lying around out there, so what we probably want to do is get ahold of them all and pick the best bits from each. Any volunteers for typing them in? I could probably handle the MERP lists. The others I know of are the Pendragon one and GAZ7. Oh, and Jenni's questions list (which is probably more useful for PCs, right?). Beyond that, we need to get a schedule of NPCs worked out to discuss. Anyone care to submit a few names, or even a list of names? If so, I suggest you e-mail them to me privately so as to cut down on wasted bandwidth, and I will compile a list based on demand for the "personality" of each character. :-) In the meantime, while all this is being done, I will suggest the first character we can try. Don't post anything about him yet, just start thinking about how you would describe his personality. The idea is to use whatever sources you have along with your own feelings to work out/create his personality. The NPC is... Haldemar! I think he's a good first choice because he probably has the most source material of any Mystara character from which to determine his personality. >Only I'm going to Italy on Monday and will probably not be able to help >any for about 14 days. Hope you guys will manage without me :) Well, have a good time! All this will still be waiting for you when you get back. ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:39:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-17 16:39:48 EDT, scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu writes: << Actually, i think marriage between cousins is quite common in most regions during the middle ages. Even today, I believe several states in US allow for marriage between first cousins. I would think in Mystara, most nations allows marriage between cousins. >> If I am not mistaken, the first culture in the real world to absolutely outlaw marriages between first cousins was European Christendom -- nothing less than a dispensation from the Pope would permit such a marriage. Other cultures either permitted such marriages or had varying rules according to the sibling relationship of the cousins' parents -- for example, it might be legal to marry a cousin if your respective parents were brother and sister but not if they were of the same gender, to cite a particularly bizarre rule that may actually have been in use. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:30:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-17 23:52:05 EDT, brizio@lunet.it (Fabrizio Paoli) writes: << Do surface elves work for TSR ? :) >> No, because elves have a life span of several centuries. The turnover of personnel at TSR is too high for them to be elves. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:30:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Neutral Fighters In a message dated 97-07-17 15:39:58 EDT, Wassellj@aol.com writes: << I read something in Dragon about a Druidic Knight which seemed very good, but what if your character is neutral but not druidic by nature. Are there any other updates, articles, rules that I have missed ? >> The "Red Steel" boxed set contains a kit called the "Defender", which pretty well subsumes the D&D classes of Paladin, Avenger, and Druidic Knight. Basically, a Defender is a single-classed Fighter who is fanatically devoted to a single Immortal. He may be of any alignment available to Priests of his patron Immortal and must follow all of that Immortal's ethical restrictions but in return receives many (but not all) of the powers of an AD&D Paladin. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:00:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Evil PCs In a message dated 97-07-18 00:26:27 EDT, you write: << If he doesn't, it would probably still result in a spoiled adventure for all involved. (Besides, if he wants to go hack and slash without a plot, tell him to play Magic.) >> Oh, I don't think he plays Magic anymore; too expensive. It's much cheaper for him to just ruin Mystara for me, ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:51:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs In a message dated 97-07-17 20:18:09 EDT, you write: << I'd love to see a copy of your hand-out. If anyone wants to see mine, I'll be happy to post them. >> Well, it's not exactly finished, but it is quite extensive as it is(i.e. 6 or so pages already). It's a MS Works *.wps file. If you want it I can send it to you though. Also, I would love a copy of all three of your handouts. If you could E-mail them to me I would appreciate it greatly. I think I may be going about making this hand-out all the wrong way. << I think it's worth a try. One problem here is that it involves effectively a whole adventure possibly being spoilt for him, and possibly for everyone else, resulting in a lot of wasted effort from you. But the result might be worth it, if he becomes more reasonable. >> I don't know if I'm willing to have my whole adventure spoiled. It takes me a long time to think up an adventure (does that mean I'm not cut out to be a DM??). Also, I feel that if I let him be a crippled kid, then if he changes his mind once he realizes that being a crippled kid isn't very heroic[no offense to any of the crippled kids on the list :-) ] and wants to be something else, It'll be hard to get him back into this particular adventure. Well let me just explain how this whole crippled kid thing got started. I am really tired of the attribute rolling system that my friend made[ 3d6 + 1d8 - the lowest die]. This is rediculous!!!! He chose this under the reasoning that PCs are supposed to be heroes, not normal people. I get sick and tired of playing in campaigns where every other attribute is an 18, and no other attribute goes below 15!!! Well anyways, I decided that in my campaign I was going to tone down the attributes and I think they are kinda pissed. I decided that I want them to roll the original, [ 3d6]. Well, I watched everyone roll and the the guy that always has 18/00 strength got a 4 for an attribute, by the way, that's the crippled kid :-). Well, believe it or not, even I was upset with that roll. But he so stubbornly replied, "no, you wanted us to roll that way so I'm keeping that 4. I'm going to put it on my intelligence." So I let everyone pick one attribute to change to anything reasonable. So the one that got the 4 changed a 13 into a 3 so that he may put it as his wisdom. I was so angry. I had everyone reroll with a different method, [3d6, reroll 1's].So these are the three results for my players: Jimmy--8, 16, 15, 14, 9, 13 Scott--11, 14, 17, 11, 15, 14 John Paul--15, 14, 10, 11, 9, 13 I guess I'm still upset that none of the characters have any 18's. That's one thing that I dislike about D&D: Some characters are more powerful than others. Well everyone remembers Rath from the Player's Handbook; how they gave him an attribute explanation. I thought that that was a really neat way to give flavor to a character. I even included a space on my character sheets entitled, ATTRIBUTE EXPLANATION. It's cool to write up one for your character, but it's no fun to write one up when your attributes are: 18, 18, 17, 18, 17, 17!!!!! Well, I seem to be rambling again, so I'll end the letter now. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] This is really crazy!!! I would like everyone to take a look at this really dumb man's website. Us Satanic role-players should know thy enemy 'eh. www.jyu.fi/~np/satangame.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:02:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Paladins the real horrible class ! In a message dated 97-07-18 03:22:51 EDT, you write: << The OD&D Paladins were lawful but those AD&D Paladins were lawful good. Is there a wider scope for the behaviour of OD&D paladins ? My apologies if I got that wrong as I have never played AD&D. Do they get to carry on a little less goody-goody than the normal obnoxious paladins ? >> I think they're even more obnoxious in AD&D ! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:25:44 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment I must say, I really dont like this subject- usually I just leave the forum, if aligment is the only subject going- but, well I suppose I can try to speak my mind too, if that pleases you. For me, and in my games, the aligment is something that describes the common attitude of the character. Note the order: The character and his/her actions define the aligment, NOT vice verse. When a player of mine makes the character he should (and does) have a picture of the character in his/her mind. Who the character is? Where did he come from? What kind of he is? how did he became like that? What he thinks about things? After that we make the character. The stats, skills, traits and aligment. Yes, both the traits (from Norther Reach Gaz) and the aligment is used. But not by the rules. The traits are hardly ever rolled, rather the player has to give numbers for each trait, according to the picture he/he has of the character. And also, he/she has to decide the aligment too. But these decisions are not for ever. When the character matures and gets older, more excperienced, the player can change the traits and even the aligment to better suit the new personality of the character. Also, if I think the charcter acts badlly out of aligment, I may suggest to the player that he/she changes the aligment or the trait, to better suit the actions, unles he/she can explain the actions. And I'm knownt to have forced them to do it one or two times too. Then in game the traits and aligment are used for 3 purposes: 1. The character can use the traits to better concentrate to the character in problematic situations. 2. I can use the traits and aligment to judge the characters actions when the player is absent. 3. The know aligment kind of spells and such can either see the aligment, or sometimes the traits too, if they are strong. And of cource, when somebody gets to know somebody other well enough hell get to know some of the fellows traits too. Lastly, I would like to underline the fact, that altough the stats and such given to different character types and monsters are common enough, they are not absolute. There are allways renegades to these rules, to both ways. There are Lawful and good goblins and drow. they are just not common. From OUR point of view. Pasi P.S. Enyone heard about the famous ring of greedy, causing the trait of *greedy* go up to skies? :) - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:41:38 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats (was: Re: Evil PCs) Ambrus: At 04:51 AM 7/18/97 -0400, Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > Well let me just explain how this whole crippled kid thing got started. > [...snip...] Regarding your rolling system -- We use the following system in the campaigns I've played: Role 4d6 and keep the top three values. Any stat less than 6 should definitely be re-rolled. The first stat less than 9 should be kept but re-roll if any more occur. Roll enough times for all stats and allow the player to decide which values go where so that they can have the kind of character they would prefer to play. After that, we also usually allow players to take two points from any stat to put any one stat up one point. No stat can be reduced below 9 or (obviously) put above 18 using this method. For HP, we always give full HP plus con bonuses at first level, and then roll for all other levels. Rolling HP -- if you don't like what you've rolled, you may try again, but you MUST take whatever you roll the second time. I find this system works quite well. You might consider trying these methods with your annoying player. :-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:07:13 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil Campaigns At 18.22 17/07/97 +0200, you wrote: >As I see it, evil PCs appear in two types of campaigns. > >(1) All the PCs are evil. >This is usually the best option. In an evil campaign, the characters will >probably stick to eachother cooperating as long as they dont make any >profits from betraying eachother. My guess is that they won't cooperate for a long time. An evil PC will try to side with the first villain he finds, even betraying his friend, if this means acquiring more power. Moreover, a smart villain, like Bargle for example, will certainly try to put the PC one against the other to further his own goals... or just for fun... > >(2) Mixed alignments >The problem with this kinda group is: why on earth do the characters hang >out together. There are many ways to explain this, but in most cases it is >ignored. Okay, maybe the other characters dont know that one of their >friends is evil, but the will find out. HAs any of you played a campaign >where the characters have decided to go their separate ways because of >internal conflicts? Yes, I wrote about this in my previous mail. <...> >It was fun in one way, however, when some PCs try to kill other PCs things >tend to get a bit personal. Noone wants to see their character killed and >especially not by your friends character. some of the fun is ruined... About this I have another history from my campaign. There's a friend of mine whose PC always do something against the local law. In my first campaign he had a Karameikan fighter and he killed a soldier that wanted to prevent him from entering the mansion of Baron Halaran in Treshold, he was arrested and brought to trial. Since I didn't want him to be put to death I decide to have him pay a huge sum of money and serve for the Karameikan government for a certain time. During another adventure he refused to obey the orders of another important NPC and fled the battleground. He was declared 'wanted', so the other PC started searching him and in the end killed him! After that session he created a new PC, but things have not been the same since then... and in the end that gaming group broke up. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:44:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Dleggend@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs In a message dated 97-07-18 05:38:47 EDT, you write: << Well anyways, I decided that in my campaign I was going to tone down the attributes and I think they are kinda pissed. I decided that I want them to roll the original, [ 3d6]. Well, I watched everyone roll and the the guy that always has 18/00 strength got a 4 for an attribute, by the way, that's the crippled kid :-). Well, believe it or not, even I was upset with that roll. But he so stubbornly replied, "no, you wanted us to roll that way so I'm keeping that 4. I'm going to put it on my intelligence." So I let everyone pick one attribute to change to anything reasonable. So the one that got the 4 changed a 13 into a 3 so that he may put it as his wisdom. I was so angry. I had everyone reroll with a different method, [3d6, reroll 1's].So these are the three results for my players: >> I don't like the powered up players also, but I also don't like players with low ability scores who can't defend themselves (nether do the playes!). So what I do is have them roll 4d6 and drop the lowest one. Do this 9 times and take the best 6 out of 9. Players will not always be super heroes, but they will not be cripples ether. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:32:28 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs Thorfinn Tait wrote: > I'd love to see a copy of your hand-out. If anyone wants to see mine, > I'll be happy to post them. Me, too. This is the sort of things that are really useful. Maybe they can find some space on someone's homepage. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:54:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignments and a Proposal (was: Evil PCs) Thorfinn Tait pontificated: > In the meantime, while all this is being done, I will suggest the first > character we can try. Don't post anything about him yet, just start > thinking about how you would describe his personality. The idea is to > use whatever sources you have along with your own feelings to work > out/create his personality. > > The NPC is... Haldemar! I would think it might be better to start with some other NPC. I don't think every one have access to all the Princess Ark material. IMO, Duke/King Karameiko might be a better starting point as he is known better by more people (I think). John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:32:30 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignments and a Proposal (was: Evil PCs) Thorfinn Tait wrote: > >> So, are you interested? Yes, I am. > Okay. Is this a thing we should do on or off the list? Personally I > think on sounds more interesting. That way we can discuss individuals > with a far wider range of opinions, and also people can lurk and only > speak out when they really have something to say in a way not possible > off the list. Since the number of npcs is realy big, I would suggest that those who are interested write a first version off the MML and then they post it to the list, where it can be freely discussed. This could also be the right time to calcolate the xps earned by npcs during WotI. What do you think? > Beyond that, we need to get a schedule of NPCs worked out to discuss. > Anyone care to submit a few names, or even a list of names? If so, I > suggest you e-mail them to me privately so as to cut down on wasted > bandwidth, and I will compile a list based on demand for the > "personality" of each character. :-) I will, as soon as I have some spare time. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:11:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats (was: Re: Evil PCs) In a message dated 97-07-18 12:04:50 EDT, you write: << For HP, we always give full HP plus con bonuses at first level, and then roll for all other levels. >> We have done this since the dawn of time :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:21:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs In a message dated 97-07-18 15:48:34 EDT, you write: << > I'd love to see a copy of your hand-out. If anyone wants to see mine, > I'll be happy to post them. Me, too. This is the sort of things that are really useful. Maybe they can find some space on someone's homepage. -Diego >> The thing is it is a MS Works file. When I make things for Role-playing games on my computer, I spend most of the time making it look "attractive". I add designs and word art; different fonts and colors--I spice it up. I think that it would loose alot of personality if I converted it. Also, it's not finished yet. I still need to include info on religion, thieving guilds, geography, famous personalities, etc. I promise I'll post the file on the list when it's done, however it is a .wps file for MS Works and it was done using Works 3.0--I know that 4.0 is kinda sorry,(IMHO) so it may make a difference. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 1997 19:44:50 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Evil PCs >>>>> "A" == Ambyrus writes: A> The thing is it is a MS Works file. When I make things for A> Role-playing games on my computer, I spend most of the time making A> it look "attractive". I add designs and word art; different fonts A> and colors--I spice it up. I think that it would loose alot of A> personality if I converted it. If you can create a postscript file, someone can convert it to PDF. Either someone who has Acrobat Exchange on the list, or I can give it a try with Ghostscript. - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted Life is fraught with opportunities to keep your mouth shut. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:04:19 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The Site is a Joke (was: This is really crazy!!!) > I would like everyone to take a look at this really dumb man's website. Us > Satanic role-players should know thy enemy 'eh. www.jyu.fi/~np/satangame.html Before anyone checks this site and goes ballistic, I just want to let you know this site is a Joke. The site's owner (Niilo Paasivirta) plays AD&D, and has been active on the AD&D mailing list at times, as well as the D&D Usenet group. If you give it a read you can probably tell it was meant to be satirical. Thanks for you time. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:04:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] The Site is a Joke (was: This is really crazy!!!) I guess I knew it was ajoke all along. Okay, so maybe I thought it was real for a second... - -ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:03:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Evil PCs In a message dated 97-07-19 00:19:58 EDT, you write: << If you can create a postscript file, someone can convert it to PDF. Either someone who has Acrobat Exchange on the list, or I can give it a try with Ghostscript. >> I don't know what a postscript file is. Sorry. Also, I did a lot of word for word copying for my handout. Do I need to include something in the text to make it legal, or is it legal anyways? I don't plan on selling it; just having my friends look at it and possibly people on the list. Can someone answer my questions? thank you - -ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:53:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > Ambrus: > > At 04:51 AM 7/18/97 -0400, Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > > Well let me just explain how this whole crippled kid thing got started. > > [...snip...] < Jenni's rolling system snipped> Sounds like a good system Jenni. much like the ones we used. I havent been playing AD&D for at least a year now. However, in my opinion, the most important thing is for the players to have characters that they like. It doesn't really matter what the numbers are as long as the players are happy with their characters. However the problem with systems where you have to roll for statistics is that even if you originally are happy with a character with 17 in all stats, you might not be as your friend shows you his PC with all 18's I've considered letting the players chose their own ability scores. This can be a good system, though it requires a certain level of maturity from the players, something which might be a problem in Ambyrus' campaign (right? :) enough from me for a while. later folks :) Haavard. - --- Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:57:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-16 01:31:59 EDT, you write: > > << The OD&D alignment system was supposed to be whether you followed the law > or not. This isn't quite the way it actually worked, but that was the way > it was described. >> > > Actually, (waaay back when) OD&D's alignment was lifted from Moorcocks > "Eternal Champion" series, notably the "Elric of Melnibone" line of books. > Law, Chaos and even "Neutrality" (Balance) were actual "alliances", rather > than simple ethical codes; morality had no part in it whatsoever. While there > were some ethical considerations within the alliances, the major concern was > what metaphysical/philosophical group you were allied with. The more modern > ethical/moral characteristics developed early, by the Blue Book edition, and > after that branched off into the D&D and AD&D versions. Should this be given more importance in Mystara? This has always seemed secondary especially among the immortals. Spheres seem to be more important than alignments when it comes to alliances. Any opinions on this? Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:44:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-18 02:19:37 EDT, Thorf wrote: << It's not very common, but it does happen and it is legal here in Britain. From my experience of it, I have heard a few comments along the line of "aren't they a bit too closely related to each other?" but they usually end with a reply of "no." >> Weren't Prince Charles and Princess Diana sixth cousins or something? Also, close-relation marriage was pretty much the only way to get married among the nobility in Europe till this century. Remember the great Hapsburg Empire (and the interesting Hapsburg genetic permutations)? Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:00:43 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats (was: Re: Evil PCs) At 07.41 18/07/97 -0700, you wrote: > > Regarding your rolling system -- We use the following system in the campaigns >I've played: Role 4d6 and keep the top three values. Any stat less than 6 >should definitely be re-rolled. The first stat less than 9 should be kept >but re-roll if any more occur. Roll enough times for all stats and allow >the player to decide which values go where so that they can have the kind >of character they would prefer to play. We do something like this too, anyway sometimes it's not bad to have PC with one (or two) low stats especially if you're interested in role-playing instead of roll-playing. I've recently played a Ranger (AD&D) with Dex 18, but Int 6 and it was fun to play such a "stupid" character. > For HP, we always give full HP plus con bonuses at first level, and then >roll for all other levels. Rolling HP -- if you don't like what you've >rolled, you may try again, but you MUST take whatever you roll the second >time. We usually give full HP at first and second level, than we roll only once for following levels. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:46:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Warrior Mage Here's a little sub-class I worked up for D&D, in the same vein as the Paladin, Knight and Avenger. It's the Warrior Mage, a fighter with some magic-using abilities (though they don't always work as planned). I also have the D&D Ranger (Neutral, with Druid spells), my own version of the Forester (basically a Lawful Warrior Mage with no armor restrictions, but dedicated to the service of Ilsundal and the Elves), and the Barbarian (a Fighter with some Thieving skills and a few new combat options). Hope this is of some use to those that use D&D... Warrior Mage Any traveling Fighter may become a Warrior Mage beginning at 9th level. To become a Warrior Mage, a Fighter must make a pact with a Wizard (or Elven Warrior-Wizard, or Sidhe Warrior- or Rogue- Wizard) of at least 18th level. This pact will require that the Fighter serve his Master as a Knight, and the Warrior Mage gains all abilities, rights and responsibilities of a Knight in regards to the Wizard, the Wizard's allies and enemies, etc. (as outlined on page 18 of the Cyclopedia under the entry for Knight); in return, the Wizard will take the Fighter on as an apprentice. The following rules apply to Warrior Mages. 1) A Warrior Mage may read Magic-user scrolls as a name-level Thief. Thus, there is always a 10% chance that the spell will backfire, creating an unexpected result, as the Warrior Mage has an imperfect understanding of the nature of magic. 2) A Warrior Mage may use any magical items that are restricted to the use of Magic-users, though as with the casting of scrolls, above, there is a 10% chance that the magic item will malfunction in some manner. 3) If the Warrior Mage's Intelligence score is 13 or greater, the character can learn and cast Magic-user spells as if he were a Magic-user of one-third his actual experience level (round any fraction down); if a Fighter becomes a Warrior Mage right at 9th level, he will immediately gain the spellcasting abilities of a 3rd level Magic-user. Base study time to gain spellcasting abilities is 2 weeks per current level of the prospective Warrior Mage (thus, if a Fighter determines that he wishes to become a Warrior Mage at 15th level, the character must spend 30 weeks of game time learning the basics of magic use). If his Intelligence score is 12 or lower, the Fighter can still become a Warrior Mage, but cannot cast spells. A Warrior Mage with an Elven or Sidhe Master will learn spells from the appropriate list (see GAZ 5, Elves of Alfheim and PC 1, Tall Tales of the Wee Folk). A Warrior Mage must maintain a Spellbook. A Warrior Mage will learn spells from his Master according to the terms of their pact; a Warrior Mage may learn spells ONLY through training with their Master. He may not inscribe spells from scrolls into his Spellbook or research them on his own (though see #6, below). Some pacts may require that the Warrior Mage gift his Master with a magic item of appropriate power according to the level of spell to be learned, other pacts require monetary payment, and yet others may require quests or further oaths. A base value of 10,000 gp per magical spell level learned is the average, whether this is in coin or in kind. Time is also required to learn the spell; this is equal to 1 week per spell level. At the end of the period, the spell is inscribed in the Warrior Mage's Spellbook. A Warrior Mage's spells have a 5% chance of failure or malfunction per spell level (1st level=5%, 2nd=10%, 3rd=15% and so on, up to 6th=30%). Results could be disastrous or merely humorous at the DM's whim. In any event, the memorized spell is lost. 4) A Warrior Mage may continue to wear armor and wield Fighter weapons. He may wear armor and cast spells, but at a cost. His chance of spell, scroll and magic-item failure (or malfunction) increases by 5% per point of protection that the armor provides (magic pluses excepted). Thus, Plate Mail provides an additional +30% chance of spell failure or malfunction, though a suit of leather armor +3 only provides a +10% chance. Thus, a Warrior Mage casting a memorized 3rd level spell and wearing chain mail would have a 35% chance of having his spell fail or malfunction. 5) Warrior Mage's are generally well-known as being apprenticed to their Wizardly mentors, at least among the magic-using community, and thus they are subject to any and all manner of attack and harassment based on the nature of their Master and his relationship with other Magic-users. 6) Beginning at 9th level of magical ability (27th level as a Fighter) a Warrior Mage may create magic items. Also at this level he no longer requires a Wizardly mentor/Master in order to rise in magical ability; he may research spells on his own (provided he has a library or other resources), though it requires twice as much time to inscribe a spell into his spellbook (2 weeks per spell level). Naturally, the relationship with the Master may continue as before, though if the Warrior Mage breaks the pact the Wizard will usually become a sworn enemy. Enjoy! Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1997 10:55:06 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Re: Evil PCs >>>>> "A" == Ambyrus writes: A> In a message dated 97-07-19 00:19:58 EDT, you write: << If you can A> create a postscript file, someone can convert it to PDF. Either A> someone who has Acrobat Exchange on the list, or I can give it a A> try with Ghostscript. >> A> I don't know what a postscript file is. Basically, install the Postscript printer driver in windows, then when you print, tell it to print to a file instead of the printer. (The postscript driver has that option when you print.) You might play around with it when you've got a slow afternoon. A> Also, I did a lot of word for word copying for my handout. Do I A> need to include something in the text to make it legal, or is it A> legal anyways? I don't plan on selling it; just having my friends A> look at it and possibly people on the list. Can someone answer my A> questions? Well, you wouldn't be able to post it on random FTP sites because of TSR's online policy, but you could post it on ftp.mpgn.com and have people get it from there. Email tsrinc@aol.com with questions. - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted Vote anarchist. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:32:48 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" meandered fecklessly... > Regarding your rolling system -- We use the following system in > the campaigns I've played: Role 4d6 and keep the top three values. > Any stat less than 6 should definitely be re-rolled. The first > stat less than 9 should be kept but re-roll if any more occur. Roll > enough times for all stats and allow the player to decide which > values go where so that they can have the kind of character they > would prefer to play. 0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 When I GM I generally just let players pick whatever stats they want, with one caveat: get carried a way and I will think more of your character when springing bad stuff on the group. One 18 is OK, but more is getting carried away. I should add, though, that although I use AD&D, I have replaced its stat bonus system with OD&D's, including removing Exceptional Strength. So, the players don't feel as inclined to pump up all of their stats, since they start getting bonuses at 13 rather than 15. But, then again, I have altered so much of AD&D with house rules (New magic system, new skill system, new saving throw system, etc.) that some might claim it is no longer AD&D. > For HP, we always give full HP plus con bonuses at first level, and then > roll for all other levels. Rolling HP -- if you don't like what you've > rolled, you may try again, but you MUST take whatever you roll the second > time. Same here. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #114 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #115 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, July 20 1997 Volume 02 : Number 115 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:06:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Also, close-relation marriage was pretty much the only way to get married > among the nobility in Europe till this century. Remember the great Hapsburg > Empire (and the interesting Hapsburg genetic permutations)? You mean Queen V's hemophilia? Or something else? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:50:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Re: Evil PCs In a message dated 97-07-19 12:49:22 EDT, you write: << Well, you wouldn't be able to post it on random FTP sites because of TSR's online policy, but you could post it on ftp.mpgn.com and have people get it from there. Email tsrinc@aol.com with questions. >> Actually, I didn't plan on posting on any website. I was going to attach the file to E-mail that I will send to the list. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:47:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Re: Evil PCs In a message dated 97-07-19 12:49:22 EDT, you write: << Basically, install the Postscript printer driver in windows, then when you print, tell it to print to a file instead of the printer. (The postscript driver has that option when you print.) You might play around with it when you've got a slow afternoon. >> Nope. not a clue...sorry...that still doesn't tell me what a "postscript" is. Thanks for trying, but otherwise let me know if you can explain it in "dummy english" for me. thanks again - -ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:55:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats just wanted to chime in with my unsolicited two bits worth of opinion on the stats issue ... when D&D was designed way back when, the 3d6 method was chosen over, for instance, a single d20, as an appropriate method for stats PRECISELY BECAUSE IT CREATES A BELL CURVE WHERE THERE ARE A VERY FEW CHARACTERS WITH HIGH STATS, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE ONES, AND A FEW WITH LOW STATS ... on the traditional method, an 18 stat occurs for a given ability on one in 216 characters ... not impossible but pretty rare. Therefore, it is valuable. As I recall, in the original rules characters with a "3" stat were considered quite playable ... otherwise 3 would have not been a possible stat for characters to have ... dig? What has happened over time is that pushy players have demanded higher and higher stats of weak-willed DM's, and the official rulebooks have followed along with a general inflation of ability scores ... and it is exactly that, an inflation. When currency is inflated, that means it is devalued ... eventually it becomes worthless. The same thing seems to be happening with ability scores in D&D. Of course, this is not to say that all players or DM's are bad for wanting it this way .. it has just become so much the norm that it is very hard to work against it, especially when it often seems as if monsters have grown more and more powerful to compensate. There is a weird sense in which every player has to have high stats in order to make their character "special" ... but every character is special in that way! a little bit ridiculous, i think, and also less challenging , because now instead of having weaknesses or flaws, characters simply have areas in which they are a little less godlike than others. I think this is part of the general problem of fantasy becoming power fantasy ... as if there were no other sort. Some of my favorite literary (and other) heroes are the ones who were able to do interesting things *without* being human tanks ... and while i enjoy a good hack and slash game as much as the next guy, even there it is more interesting when your characters are vulnerable human beings. If you ask me (which nobody did, I know), the whole idea Gygax put forth about PC's being superior to the average population is horse shit. In my campaign, I make all characters roll 3d6 for each stat with no exceptions and no rerolls ... i even sometimes (though not frequently) am able to convince people to play 0-level characters with interesting skills ... and my campaigns aren't even all that low in combat, just not so power-focused. nar. yours truly (though grumpy), m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > > > "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" meandered fecklessly... > > Regarding your rolling system -- We use the following system in > > the campaigns I've played: Role 4d6 and keep the top three values. > > Any stat less than 6 should definitely be re-rolled. The first > > stat less than 9 should be kept but re-roll if any more occur. Roll > > enough times for all stats and allow the player to decide which > > values go where so that they can have the kind of character they > > would prefer to play. > > 0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 > When I GM I generally just let players pick whatever stats they > want, with one caveat: get carried a way and I will think more of your > character when springing bad stuff on the group. One 18 is OK, but > more is getting carried away. > I should add, though, that although I use AD&D, I have replaced > its stat bonus system with OD&D's, including removing Exceptional > Strength. So, the players don't feel as inclined to pump up all > of their stats, since they start getting bonuses at 13 rather than > 15. > But, then again, I have altered so much of AD&D with house rules > (New magic system, new skill system, new saving throw system, etc.) > that some might claim it is no longer AD&D. > > > For HP, we always give full HP plus con bonuses at first level, and > then > > roll for all other levels. Rolling HP -- if you don't like what > you've > > rolled, you may try again, but you MUST take whatever you roll the > second > > time. > > Same here. > > Leroy Van Camp III > malacoda@lesbois.com > owner-mystara-l@io.com > > "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." > MST3K > > ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1997 18:38:56 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Re: Re: Evil PCs >>>>> "A" == Ambyrus writes: A> Nope. not a clue...sorry...that still doesn't tell me what a A> "postscript" is. Thanks for trying, but otherwise let me know if A> you can explain it in "dummy english" for me. thanks again Oops, sorry, forgot about that part. Postscript is a printer language developed by Adobe. It allows you to represent graphics without worrying about the printer resolution -- kind of like outline fonts can be scaled as big as you want without getting jaggy. Lots of laser printers use it. Adobe developed something called Acrobat which takes Postscript output and converts it into something you can view online. Check out http://www.adobe.com for more info on Acrobat (and readers). Basically, it's a way to view documents online with pictures, fonts, layout just like you'd have on paper, but it can be viewed on lots of platforms. - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted The more things change, the more they'll never be the same again. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:38:31 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Priests Under AD&D Rules... At 18:57 17-07-97 +0200, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > >> I know many on this list are anti-Forgotten Realms, >> but anyone who has the opportunity should take a look at >> Faiths & Avatars, a supplement detailing the FR gods and >> their religions. Even if you don't like the Realms, this >> book is chock full of examples of what variety, depth >> and color can do for fantasy religion. > >Can you give a list of what kind of information this book (Faith and >Avatars) give? I'm not so sure anymore, but I think that the book detailed each God, telling its goals, its avatars, what its priests do, etc. Its a real handy book if you run a FR campaign... (We really should have a Mystaran version :) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:22:36 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Dream Mages; was Re: [Mystara] More on RLaRue's "Traladaran Gypsies" At 17:39 15-07-97 +0200, you wrote: >On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, valerya@hotmail.com wrote: > >> Hi there! This is valerya (valerya@hotmail.com)...Thought everyone might >> like this...I'd like to know what you think...Also, 2 questions: Has >> anyone developed the Seven SecretCrafts (Glantri) any more than in the >> boxed set? And does anyone have any info on the Demiplane of Nightmares >> (as you can guess, one of my players is a Dream Master)...Looking >> forward to hearing from you...Valerya > >More on Gypsies later when I get to read it more carefully. >As a matter of fact I've been working on the Dream Mages. I havent posted >it yet since it isn't finnished, but it will change them dramatically. > >One of the changes is that the Dream Mages or Oneiromancers as I call them >are no longer connected to the Demiplane of Nightmares (The Dimension of >Nightmares is a better term IMHO) Rather this is replaced by a plane I >call The Dreaming.(inspired by Neil Gaiman's Sandman) > >The Dimension of Nightmares was extrapolated by Mystaros(or was that >Cthuludrew?) as a dimension where Lovecraftlike critters breed. My theory >is that Nightmare creatures from The Dreaming can escape to this Dimension >and gain a life of their own. I always thought that the creatures on the Demiplane of Nightmare could also escape, and life somewhere else... The G:KoM box explains the Secret Craft of Dream Magic (I think it was that, don't have access to my small amount of Mystara stuff now...) quite good, and some other book (forgot which one) explained that demiplane even better... >If there is any interest, I'll post more on this later... Yeah, Interested in it. Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 21:00:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Re: Evil PCs In a message dated 97-07-19 18:29:47 EDT, Ambyrus@aol.com writes: << Actually, I didn't plan on posting on any website. I was going to attach the file to E-mail that I will send to the list. >> Please don't do that -- many people on this list have mail-servers that do not react well to binary attachments. And I think that the maintainer of the list has asked us not to do that sort of thing anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:36:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hand-outs In a message dated 97-07-19 20:15:27 EDT, you write: << Adobe developed something called Acrobat which takes Postscript output and converts it into something you can view online. Check out http://www.adobe.com for more info on Acrobat (and readers). >> Well, I went to this site and a free Acrobat Reader was avaliable for download, but I don't know if that's what I need, much less knowing how to do it if I actually did download it. Can I send the file to you and maybe you could do it? Or, if you cannot do it, then maybe someone else can.......but it's not even finished yet. - -ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:46:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystaran Priests Under AD&D Rules... In a message dated 97-07-19 21:01:23 EDT, you write: << Can you give a list of what kind of information this book (Faith and >Avatars) give? I'm not so sure anymore, but I think that the book detailed each God, telling its goals, its avatars, what its priests do, etc. Its a real handy book if you run a FR campaign... (We really should have a Mystaran version :) >> Also, it tells of the different locations that major temples are located for that god or goddess. It also introduced a few new spells for each particular god--spells that had to do with that particular god/goddess. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:53:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Hand-outs In a message dated 97-07-19 21:38:15 EDT, you write: << << Actually, I didn't plan on posting on any website. I was going to attach the file to E-mail that I will send to the list. >> Please don't do that -- many people on this list have mail-servers that do not react well to binary attachments. And I think that the maintainer of the list has asked us not to do that sort of thing anyway. > > Okay, then anyone who wants this file let me know if you can recieve binary files and I will E-mail it to you directly. Also let me know your full E-mail address. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:06:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Warrior Mage Mystaros@aol.com pontificated: > > Warrior Mage Wouldn't a better name be Mage Warrior? To me, warrior mage sounds more like a magician that also learn some fighting, not the other way around. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:29:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Matthew Levy pontificated: > > What has happened over time > is that pushy players have demanded higher and higher stats of weak-willed > DM's, I think this is true more in AD&D than D&D, because id D&D a very high ability score doesn't help that much, but 17 and 18 in AD&D gives some very nice bonuses to a character. > monsters have grown more and more powerful to compensate. There is a I always thought it is interesting you can date a module by looking at the pre-generated PCs or NPC's ability score. If they are from 3d6 distribution then it is an early module, if they average around 14 it is later module, some of the very late characters, gazeteers and after, have very high ability scores. I think several of those NPCs have 2 or 3 18s and quite a few have ability score sum of over 90, I think one even have a sum of ove 100, but don't remember who. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:20:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Leroy Van Camp III pontificated: > > When I GM I generally just let players pick whatever stats they > want, with one caveat: get carried a way and I will think more of your > character when springing bad stuff on the group. One 18 is OK, but > more is getting carried away. Actually one 18 per character sounds a bit high. Remember 18 is the highest possible for human, so 18 str is the greatest olympian weight lifter, 18 int is someone like Einstian and Newton, etc. A group of people each with one 18 in something seems a bit too much for me. In one of the campaign I'm in but never got started we were allow to pick stats the highest a fighter have something like 14, 16, 16, 15, 12, 17 well the lowest is 13, 10, 12, 13, 12, 12, a cleric. I think there were only one 18 in the group, and there were actually a few stats below 9. Everyone come up with a character story first then pick the most appropriet attributes for the character. A few characters, however, have some special abilities. The mage could detect magic at well, the fighter have fairy blood, etc. > I should add, though, that although I use AD&D, I have replaced > its stat bonus system with OD&D's, including removing Exceptional > Strength. So, the players don't feel as inclined to pump up all > of their stats, since they start getting bonuses at 13 rather than > 15. Also, I think the skill system with some modification would also help. So that high ability score will help, but not too much. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:51:26 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [Mystara] This is really crazy!!! > I would like everyone to take a look at this really dumb man's website. Us > Satanic role-players should know thy enemy 'eh. www.jyu.fi/~np/satangame.html Dont take it seriously. The man (Niilo Paasivirta) is a roleplayer himself. Has a lot of Dd stuf too. Just likes to get some attention.... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 1997 10:00:04 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Hand-outs >>>>> "A" == Ambyrus writes: A> Well, I went to this site and a free Acrobat Reader was avaliable A> for download, but I don't know if that's what I need, much less A> knowing how to do it if I actually did download it. Unfortunately, Acrobat Reader is only a reader. But if you create a postscript file, someone who has Acrobat Exchange (or me, with Ghostscript) can give a try at converting it. Unfortunately, I don't have Works available anywhere, or I could convert it the whole way for you. - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted It now costs more to amuse a child than it once did to educate his father. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:59:55 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re : Neutral Fighters At Name Level, the fighter has to decide whether he intends to be a land-owning fighter or a travelling fighter. Travelling fighters don't usually have the political power that land-owning fighters do, but they can receive special abilities to help compensate for that. Lawful traveling fighters may become paladins, Neutral may become Knights and Chaotics may become Avengers. Knight's path has been specially mistreated because their only gain are a good lot of duties and the possibility of visiting anyone's castle - weird, isn't it ? -. Obviously all neutral fighters will try to become land-owners better than knights. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 97 17:52:22 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] Re: Hand-outs Here's my 2p's worth - I have works and Exchange if you want me to do it. Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon - ---------- From: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com on behalf of Alan Shutko Sent: 20 July 1997 16:00 To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Subject: [Mystara] Re: Hand-outs >>>>> "A" == Ambyrus writes: A> Well, I went to this site and a free Acrobat Reader was avaliable A> for download, but I don't know if that's what I need, much less A> knowing how to do it if I actually did download it. Unfortunately, Acrobat Reader is only a reader. But if you create a postscript file, someone who has Acrobat Exchange (or me, with Ghostscript) can give a try at converting it. Unfortunately, I don't have Works available anywhere, or I could convert it the whole way for you. - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted It now costs more to amuse a child than it once did to educate his father. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:01:23 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Shin Chyang Yu meandered fecklessly... > Leroy Van Camp III pontificated: > > > > When I GM I generally just let players pick whatever stats they > > want, with one caveat: get carried a way and I will think more of your > > character when springing bad stuff on the group. One 18 is OK, but > > more is getting carried away. > > Actually one 18 per character sounds a bit high. Remember 18 is > the highest possible for human... Got it, I remember. Yes, every character having an 18 would be silly. I should go on to say that since I have started to use this method I have seen two, maybe three 18's in a dozen or so campaigns. If you have powergaming players, this is not the method to go with. Luckily, my players don't get carried away. Generally speaking, I prefer player enjoyment over reality. If, for some reason, every one of my players gave their character an 18, I would just go with it. > Also, I think the skill system with some modification would also > help. So that high ability score will help, but not too much. My skill system is based on giving characters a large number of skills, but they start out less capable with them than was typical in the old AD&D system. In addition, advancement is easier than in the previous system. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:45:26 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Sending Attachements to the List (was: Evil PCs) Kaviyd meandered fecklessly... > In a message dated 97-07-19 18:29:47 EDT, Ambyrus@aol.com writes: > > << Actually, I didn't plan on posting on any website. I was going to attach > the file to E-mail that I will send to the list. >> > > Please don't do that -- many people on this list have mail-servers that do > not react well to binary attachments. And I think that the maintainer of > the list has asked us not to do that sort of thing anyway. Kaviyd is correct. Not only can attachments over the mailing list cause problems for individual subscribers, it can wreak havoc on the list server as well. Thank you. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:42:05 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Matthew Levy meandered fecklessly... > when D&D was designed way back when, the 3d6 method was chosen over, for > instance, a single d20, as an appropriate method for stats PRECISELY > BECAUSE IT CREATES A BELL CURVE WHERE THERE ARE A VERY FEW CHARACTERS > WITH HIGH STATS, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE ONES, AND A FEW WITH LOW STATS ... on > the traditional method, an 18 stat occurs for a given ability on one in > 216 characters ... not impossible but pretty rare. This is all well and good, if this is what you are looking for. Personally, I prefer that my players have characters they enjoy over enforcing some mathematical equation. As long as they don't get carried away, and are happy with their character, I just don't see the problem. I do not like random stat rolls in games (with a few exceptions). When I get ready to play a game, I put a lot of thought into coming up with a character concept, including personality and history. So, if after I put all that thought and work into a character concept, and the dice don't cooperate, I am going to be unhappy. Since I have started to let my players choose their own stats I have seen a general increase in the creativity of characters. > Therefore, it is > valuable. As I recall, in the original rules characters with a "3" stat > were considered quite playable ... otherwise 3 would have not been a > possible stat for characters to have ... dig? No, I guess I don't "dig." Though a 3 might be playable in terms of the penalties it hands out, in terms of in game "reality" and roleplaying, I find a 3 pretty much unplayable. The idea of playing an AD&D character who is, for example, barely strong enough to carry his own body masss, or barely intelligent enough to string coherent sentences together just doesn't appeal to me. > There is a > weird sense in which every player has to have high stats in order to make > their character "special" ... but every character is special in that way! I think "every" is an overstatement. Since I have started letting my players pick their own stats I have seen a variety of occasions where a character had surprisingly pitiful stats, simply because the player had a certain vision in mind. > a little bit ridiculous, i think, and also less challenging , because now > instead of having weaknesses or flaws, characters simply have areas in > which they are a little less godlike than others. Sorry, but I think you are giving stats a bit too much emphasis here. I have played in games where one or more characters rolled _amazing_ stats. (I once, as a GM, watched one of my players roll two 18's, a 17 and a 16 right in front of me, with my own dice!) And in none of these was the character "godlike". And, as the characters advanced through levels, the bonuses from stats began to make less and less of a difference. > Some of my favorite literary (and other) heroes are the > ones who were able to do interesting things *without* being human tanks Of coure, as have I. But then I have read a lot of fantasy novels where the characters obviously had one or more stats at high levels. Besides, with the word "tank" you seem to have focused on physical stats. In these books how many of these non-tanks probably had a high Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma? > ... and while i enjoy a good hack and slash game as much as the next guy, > even there it is more interesting when your characters are vulnerable > human beings. And I have yet to have a problem with this. Better than average stats don't change this, don't turn a game into Hack 'n' Slash. > If you ask me (which nobody did, I know), the whole idea > Gygax put forth about PC's being superior to the average population is > horse shit. I have to admit I have a problem with this statement (other than just the language). It implies that one style of gaming is superior over another, which I feel is nonsense. Why is this style any less valid? It is a common theme in both written fiction and cinema, so why is it suddenly "horse shit" in a game? How is the "PC's are average Joes" style any more valid? > In my campaign, I make all characters roll 3d6 for each stat > with no exceptions and no rerolls ... So what do you do when a player is genuinely dissatisfied with his characer because he rolled a gimp? Tell him to lump it? Doesn't this defeat the purpose of playing a _game_ for _enterainment_? I am not trying to just bash you or your style, but if someone asked me ot play xD&D, and I came to the table with a character concept in mind, then proceeded to roll atrociously, not allowing me to even come close to the concept, and the GM said "Too bad", I would start finding excuses not to play. (How's that for a run on sentence?) > i even sometimes (though not > frequently) am able to convince people to play 0-level characters with > interesting skills ... and my campaigns aren't even all that low in > combat, just not so power-focused. The implication here is that "Good Stats" = "Power Focused" which is simply not true. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 97 19:52:17 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Leroy Van Camp III said --- >> No, I guess I don't "dig." Though a 3 might be playable in >>terms of the penalties it hands out, in terms of in game "reality" >>and roleplaying, I find a 3 pretty much unplayable. The idea of >>playing an AD&D character who is, for example, barely strong >>enough to carry his own body masss, or barely intelligent enough >>to string coherent sentences together just doesn't appeal to me. I think that fairly describes two of my players! Alan Jones AKA Trimus D'Alberon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:34:17 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats At 14.55 19/07/97 -0700, Matthew Levy wrote: >just wanted to chime in with my unsolicited two bits worth of opinion on >the stats issue ... For once I agree with you Matthew, except the following statement: >As I recall, in the original rules characters with a "3" stat >were considered quite playable ... IMO it depends on the stat. A 3 in Cha is still playable, but a 3 in Int or Con is quite difficult to play, because it would result in a very stupid or very weak character. What about rolling for treasure: do you usually re-roll if the treasure is too less or too much or not? Or maybe you choose the treasure without rolling dice? To me it happens sometimes to reroll poor treasures... and I usually end picking up the right amount myself whitout using dice :) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:30:02 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [Mystara] My Homepage Maybe someone among you noticed that my homepage (http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html ) didn't work in the last 2 months or so. That problem was caused by the University's net rep. that suddenly deleted all students accounts :-( Until I'll have a new account at the university, maybe next week... maybe next month..., my Homepage has been transferred to the following address: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 The Mystara related stuff should be at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560/diary In future I plan to make an Home Page completely devoted to Shadow Elves. Bye. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:43:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > > > > Matthew Levy meandered fecklessly... and I'm gonna do it again, to respond to some of the things you've said. Please bear with me ... > > when D&D was designed way back when, the 3d6 method was chosen over, > for > > instance, a single d20, as an appropriate method for stats PRECISELY > > BECAUSE IT CREATES A BELL CURVE WHERE THERE ARE A VERY FEW CHARACTERS > > WITH HIGH STATS, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE ONES, AND A FEW WITH LOW STATS ... > on > > the traditional method, an 18 stat occurs for a given ability on one > in > > 216 characters ... not impossible but pretty rare. > > This is all well and good, if this is what you are looking for. > Personally, I prefer that my players have characters they enjoy over > enforcing some mathematical equation. As long as they don't get > carried away, and are happy with their character, I just don't see > the problem. > I do not like random stat rolls in games (with a few exceptions). > When I get ready to play a game, I put a lot of thought into coming > up with a character concept, including personality and history. So, > if after I put all that thought and work into a character concept, and > the dice don't cooperate, I am going to be unhappy. > Since I have started to let my players choose their own stats I > have seen a general increase in the creativity of characters. > I absolutely agree with you, actually. If you have players who are mature enough to choose their stats rather than generating them randomly, that's wonderful. In fact, it's much BETTER than rolling dice but dropping low rolls, which tends to automatically inspire "dice fever" on the part of the most un-power hungry characters, because it makes everything seem like a competition to get more stats above 15, or above 16, or whatever ... and when I have players who start out with a clear character concept, I allow them to fudge or change rolls to fit the concept. But the simple truth is that most of the time players just make up the character as they go along, and their fear of low rolls has little to do with character concept and a lot to do with infantile perceptions of advantage. Believe me, I really have played in more games than I can even count with people who believed a character with 3 or 4 "18" stats was perfectly reasonable and that any stat which didn't receive a bonus (AD&D rules) was a complete waste of time. Anyway, I don't see random rolls as being incompatible with good character concept anyway. Since I let players rearrange the sequence of the stats, they can put their highest and lowest ones where they like ... but of course, highest and lowest here is relative to the average, rather than relative to some inflated standard. And when I create my own characters, I like to take the rolls as they fall and make the character around them. I find it more challenging and more interesting. Now, don't get me wrong, I've played in games with high-stat characters before, but they always felt implausible and uninteresting. Such games also tend to be high in treasure and rate of experience gain, so before you really get a chance to develop an interesting character in between wading hip deep through bone devil carcasses and alphebatizing your magic item collection, you're already so powerful that nothing is fun anymore. Also, there is never any real danger in such campaigns, because the only thing that can possibly kill you is having the stupidity to stand and fight in the face of the hundreds of monsters the DM throws at you. Admittedly I'm being slightly radical in the opposite direction, but I think it's appropriate. The AD&D game now has more resources than ever for running low-powered, but interesting, campaigns, and hardly anyone ever seems to use them. > > Therefore, it is > > valuable. As I recall, in the original rules characters with a "3" > stat > > were considered quite playable ... otherwise 3 would have not been a > > possible stat for characters to have ... dig? > > No, I guess I don't "dig." Though a 3 might be playable in > terms of the penalties it hands out, in terms of in game "reality" > and roleplaying, I find a 3 pretty much unplayable. The idea of > playing an AD&D character who is, for example, barely strong > enough to carry his own body masss, or barely intelligent enough > to string coherent sentences together just doesn't appeal to me. > I can see your point about the 3 intelligence character, in the sense that it's hard to role play someone whose brain works fundamentally differently from yours ... but it can still be done (although it usually ends up with a lot of "dumb and dumber" type humor) ... but a 3 strength character can be fascinating, especially if she's a mage or priest type who has to get everywhere by the powers of the mind ... or even a thief who always ducks combat ... but at any rate a 3 stat is NOT the lowest possible ... I suppose that would be a "1"; a 3 is just the lowest found within a normal population. so a 3 might be the equivalent of moderately disabled, rather than (as someone so indelicately put it earlier) "crippled". It's all a matter of what you take the stats to represent, and how you use them. Of course a 3 strength makes you an ineffective combatant ... but combat is not the key to a good role playing game. > > There is a > > weird sense in which every player has to have high stats in order to > make > > their character "special" ... but every character is special in that > way! > > I think "every" is an overstatement. Since I have started letting > my players pick their own stats I have seen a variety of occasions > where a character had surprisingly pitiful stats, simply because the > player had a certain vision in mind. > okay, point taken. > > a little bit ridiculous, i think, and also less challenging , because > now > > instead of having weaknesses or flaws, characters simply have areas > in > > which they are a little less godlike than others. > > Sorry, but I think you are giving stats a bit too much emphasis > here. I have played in games where one or more characters rolled > _amazing_ stats. (I once, as a GM, watched one of my players roll two > 18's, a 17 and a 16 right in front of me, with my own dice!) And in > none of these was the character "godlike". And, as the characters > advanced through levels, the bonuses from stats began to make less > and less of a difference. of course they did. that's because all the stats were relatively high ... if you'd had characters with really low stats in these games, they still would have been handicapped at higher experience levels ... thus making the game more interesting. and having 2 18's, a 17 and a 16 may not literally be godlike, but it's certainly absurd. who could relate to a character like that? if i wanted that sort of thing i would play marvel superheroes instead. > > > Some of my favorite literary (and other) heroes are the > > ones who were able to do interesting things *without* being human > tanks > > Of coure, as have I. But then I have read a lot of fantasy novels > where the characters obviously had one or more stats at high levels. > Besides, with the word "tank" you seem to have focused on > physical stats. In these books how many of these non-tanks probably > had a high Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma? > you're right, of course ... i've been thinking in the realm of st, dx, and con, which is where the worst offenses usually occur. but anyway, my point is that of all the different types of fantasy novels, my favorites are the ones where the people are essentially ordinary even though the world is fantastic ... i don't get into "hero" kind of stuff very much. in star wars, i always liked han solo much better than luke skywalker, who was just an annoying gifted kid ... > > ... and while i enjoy a good hack and slash game as much as the next > guy, > > even there it is more interesting when your characters are vulnerable > > human beings. > > And I have yet to have a problem with this. Better than average > stats don't change this, don't turn a game into Hack 'n' Slash. > You may be right, but I wonder what motivates players to feel a need for stats higher than average, if it isn't a desire to be superior and more powerful than everyone else ... which tends to go hand in hand with the hack and slash mentality. I actually don't mind hack and slash so much, as long as there is real danger for the PC's, which in turn is easier in a low-powered game. I also like the new critical rules for this purpose ... even the most mega character is always in danger. > > If you ask me (which nobody did, I know), the whole idea > > Gygax put forth about PC's being superior to the average population > is > > horse shit. > > I have to admit I have a problem with this statement (other than > just the language). It implies that one style of gaming is superior > over another, which I feel is nonsense. Why is this style any less > valid? It is a common theme in both written fiction and cinema, so > why is it suddenly "horse shit" in a game? How is the "PC's are > average Joes" style any more valid? > Well, I am simply offering a considered opinion ... I apologize if my coarse language has offended you, and I will desist from using that phrase in the future. However, I don't think every style of gaming is equally valid. You are of course free to play however you like ... ain't nothin' I can do about that anyway, and why would I care? What I am trying to say is that in my experience, the superhero motif from fiction and cinema eventually makes for a poor roleplaying experience ... in a heroic novel or movie, you always know the hero will win, and I find such books and movies relatively boring. I could offer you some dimestore psychoanalytic mumbo-jumbo about why I think people find that stuff appealing (power fantasies and the oedipal complex, whatever ...) but that's really beside the point. The point is, even if you LIKE it that way, your game will eventually degenerate into an overpowered mess ... I've seen it happen again and again. I think Gygax's attitude about PC's opened the door for an upward spiral of stat inflation which eventually distorted and almost destroyed the original scope of the rules (there were other major factors, like Monty Haul treasure hoards) ... what I find most fascinating about some of the earlier D&D stuff is the implication that you could actually make a functional world out of the rules as given, a world in which heads of state are often mid level characters or even non-adventurers, where PC's have a commensurately restricted social sphere where they actually have to work within society as opposed to against it to survive, where high level magic users are actually so rare as to be truly special, where you don't need to have the avatars of gods walking the earth to make your campaign interesting. Now, Mystara has not been such a world in a long time, nor should it be ... I know that. Part of Mystara's charm is actually the way in which it completely destroys that in the opposite direction, if that makes any sense .... Mystara is just so absurd that it's workable. But Mystara is also so richly complex that world wide high powered campaigns on it become almost silly, whereas really detailed small scale campaigns take on a new life in the shadow of all the mega-beings around ... when your characters are low level and you are wandering through the known world trying to make ends meet, you ALWAYS are reminded of the number of beings around who are infinitely more powerful than you are, and I guess that is a good thing... but when you start having PC's who can challenge the wizards of glantri or (neo-) alphatia, and you don't have the incredible brain capacity needed to figure out all the complexities of the politics which would likely surround that, then you're destined for frustration. i like my characters at a level where they can participate in the plot of world history, but not powerful enough to really shape it. > > In my campaign, I make all characters roll 3d6 for each stat > > with no exceptions and no rerolls ... > > So what do you do when a player is genuinely dissatisfied with > his characer because he rolled a gimp? Tell him to lump it? Doesn't > this defeat the purpose of playing a _game_ for _enterainment_? Number one, I find it funny that you find my language offensive considering the sort of slurs you find acceptable. Two, if a player is genuinely incapable of enjoying playing the character, then of course I'll let him reroll. I'm not a rules Nazi, and I'm not going to chase players away for the sake of purism ... that would be stupid. however, 3) I think that players can learn to play a character that they might otherwise find unacceptable, especially when everyone else has disadvantages too ... and 4) there is a difference between genuinely dissatisfied and just plain pushy, and i have enough experience to tell the difference, and I have to use a firm hand as a DM in such situations, because the alternative is a game where character power is based on a player's ability to be irritating, and that's no fun for anyone (i've played in those too). > I am not trying to just bash you or your style, but if someone > asked me ot play xD&D, and I came to the table with a character > concept in mind, then proceeded to roll atrociously, not allowing me > to even come close to the concept, and the GM said "Too bad", I > would start finding excuses not to play. (How's that for a run on > sentence?) > it's ok, I'm not a grammar nazi either. :) As i've already said, i would allow you to reroll if you really felt it was appropriate to your concept ... but what does that mean to you? do you start out with a concept like "intelligent, attractive, but clumsy, average build" or do you start out with a concept like "supergenius intelligence, amazing powers of mental observation and hairtrigger reflexes, but only just above average looks ... can't quite bend steel bars with his thumb and forefinger ...)? if you came to me with a concept like the second one i would try to encourage you to tone it down a bit ... failing that i would probably just let you make the mega character, and then proceed to design a trap that your excessive player pride would draw you into, killing you off summarily and irrevocably. i would then let you make another character, or leave the game, or (if other players wanted to) we would switch gears and do a high powered mega campaign where EVERYONE plays a ridiculous character like that ... probably very similar to many people's ordinary campaigns ... but depending on the type of players involved, everyone would probably get sick of that very quickly. i would also probably let somebody else DM it, because it's not fun. > > i even sometimes (though not > > frequently) am able to convince people to play 0-level characters > with > > interesting skills ... and my campaigns aren't even all that low in > > combat, just not so power-focused. > > The implication here is that "Good Stats" = "Power Focused" which > is simply not true. > why else would you care to inflate the stats that way? if ten is REALLY average, then a thirteen is a really good stat and if you're just worried about role playing, you can be happy with a 13 ... just like most people would be happy to score a 130 IQ ... it's certainly pretty rare in the average population. but when you start to worry about stat bonuses (and tangible power increases for your character) then 13's won't cut it ... it's a matter of relative perception. I think wanting to inflate stats above what the original rules would provide for indicates a power and superiority - oriented psychology which makes the game less interesting. > > Leroy Van Camp III > malacoda@lesbois.com > owner-mystara-l@io.com > > "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." > MST3K > > I hope that's not personal ... nothing I've said here was meant as an attack, just a rant. Hope it comes across that way. peace, m@2 ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #115 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #116 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Monday, July 21 1997 Volume 02 : Number 116 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:16:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy Subject: [Mystara] Treasure and Divine Justice Another interesting topic! It seems to me that both character stats and treasure granting are both symptoms of a larger conflict of worldviews that I have with much of the mainstream in gaming circles ... it seems there are two schools of thought about how and why we should game. Some people, like Leroy, think that gaming is essentially about acting out fantasies that you already have ... about emulating your favorite heroes from fiction or being the uberstud you always wanted to be in real life. that's all well and good, but I prefer to think of gaming as a place where i can just explore what it's like to be in different surroundings ... not to act out a fantasy about myself, really, but to be in a fantastic world. this can include being inside of a very different body, or having different personality traits, but it's not really a "fantasy" in Leroy's sense ... sometimes i want to play someone who is generally less blessed than my real self in just about every way. the fun comes from knowing you can do things, see things, and take risks that you can't do, see, or take in the real world. similarly, some fantasize about a world in which treasure is given out on the basis of merit to adventurers who "earn" it through struggle ... this seems to be what Brizio is saying. My view in this would be that the D&D world should be no fairer than the real world (and perhaps less) ... sometimes PC's should work really damn hard to kill a dragon just to find that he's poor as heck. I think it's important to keep treasure to manageable levels so the whole campaign's economy doesn't hit an inflationary spiral ... but I do it randomly within those bounds. This can work to player's advantage too, since 1st level PC's can often accidentally stumble upon powerful items by the random tables ... of course, then they have to figure out how it works, keep away from more powerful NPC's who want to take it, etc. ... Once two very low level PC's (yes, a party of just two) ended up accidentally getting involved in and narrowly surviving (by hiding under furniture) an enormous shooting match between mid-to-high level mages, only to get away with all of the magic items belonging to one of the two, who was killed in the fight, while the other wasn't looking. They've been on the run ever since, but they made out like bandits, and with no special help from me the DM ... no dice roll fudging, no special rerolls, nothing. On the other hand, there is also something of a PC casualty rate inherent to the way I run my campaign. I'm not the sort of DM who goes looking to kill off PC's ... and usually there is very little violence and plenty of opportunity to run away in my game. However, when there is violence, it is deadly, risky, and unpredictable ... just like the real world. Player characters are human and fragile and limited ... just like the real world. I have no great feelings of justice or desire to help players indulge their preconceived fantasies. what I DO provide is a place for them to TRY to make their fantasies come true actively, without the actual risks of the real world. After all, you can always make another character. I like making them, and if players don't want to spend the two hours or so required, I will gladly make a character for them ... even to specifications (within reason). I kinda like the fact that I don't know how my plots will turn out ... characters die unexpectedly, things go all wrong ... all i have to do is keep up with the players in creating an interesting (if harshly random) world around them. so that's my little blurb. i totally understand the kind of gaming that leroy is talking about, but i guess i'm just bored of it. i like the messiness of Mystara for this reason ... there are grand plots but no grand purpose, no clear alignment of good or evil with one country or another on earth, no ultimate meaning ... just a lot of cool adventures. in a world like that, you may still be just dust in the wind, but the wind is cooler and the dust is earthier .... now i'm just rambling incoherently. would you believe i haven;t had my coffee yet today? peace, love, & understanding, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 14.55 19/07/97 -0700, Matthew Levy wrote: > >just wanted to chime in with my unsolicited two bits worth of opinion on > >the stats issue ... > > For once I agree with you Matthew, except the following statement: > > >As I recall, in the original rules characters with a "3" stat > >were considered quite playable ... > > IMO it depends on the stat. A 3 in Cha is still playable, but a 3 in Int or > Con is quite difficult to play, because it would result in a very stupid or > very weak character. > > What about rolling for treasure: do you usually re-roll if the treasure is > too less or too much or not? Or maybe you choose the treasure without > rolling dice? > To me it happens sometimes to reroll poor treasures... and I usually end > picking up the right amount myself whitout using dice :) > > > ************** > Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it s153349@studenti.ing.unipi.it > DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms > Leader of Privateers - Trip Bomb Master > Lord of Firewalkers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering > Home Page: http://www.ing.unipi.it/~s153349/index.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:14:54 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Alan Jones meandered fecklessly... > >> No, I guess I don't "dig." Though a 3 might be playable in > >>terms of the penalties it hands out, in terms of in game "reality" > >>and roleplaying, I find a 3 pretty much unplayable. The idea of > >>playing an AD&D character who is, for example, barely strong > >>enough to carry his own body masss, or barely intelligent enough > >>to string coherent sentences together just doesn't appeal to me. > > I think that fairly describes two of my players! Players or their characters? 'Cause if that describes actual people, sounds like they have some problems! :) Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 1997 19:42:26 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Treasure and Divine Justice >>>>> "M" == Matthew Levy writes: M> Some people, like Leroy, think that gaming is essentially about M> acting out fantasies that you already have ... about emulating your M> favorite heroes from fiction or being the uberstud you always M> wanted to be in real life. You know, I have absolutely no idea where you got that idea. It makes me doubt you've read Leroy's post. His point was _not_ that he wants a high-powered campaign, or inflated stats, or anything like that. He _did_ say (and I agree) that he prefers campaigns in which players come in with a character vision and you assign stats to fit. He made a rather big point that his characters tended not to go for high-powered characters. Rather, they went for concept: like that crippled Thatian kid we were discussing earlier. I think it would be a great character, full of roleplaying potential and not a score around 18. I could do it without a problem in Leroy's campaign. In yours, I'd have to role and then ditch my character concept because the scores were too good. Your emphasis on M> no dice roll fudging, no special rerolls, nothing. suggests that you're roll-playing and Leroy's role-playing. M> After all, you can always make another character. I like making M> them, and if players don't want to spend the two hours or so M> required, I will gladly make a character for them ... How much investment can you have in a character when they die off quickly, and you can't even develop much of a background because you have no idea what you'll have when you roll? I much prefer campaigns where people spend time developing motivations, personality and background and play to that rather than waste a few months of roleplaying while I'm trying to figure out who I am. - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted Lensmen eat Jedi for breakfast. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 21:30:07 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Matthew Levy wrote: > > I can see your point about the 3 intelligence character, in the > sense that it's hard to role play someone whose brain works fundamentally > differently from yours ... but it can still be done (although it usually > ends up with a lot of "dumb and dumber" type humor) ... I had a friend who played a 3 Int fighter once, in a humorous campaign. He was told to come up with a list of 20 words: EVERYTHING the PC said had to come from that 20 word vocabluary. Tons of fun. Off the top of my head, I can't remember much of his vocab, except that all weapons were "sticks," and he combined two of his words to descibe a potion: "magic-beer." J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 20:08:03 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Matthew Levy meandered fecklessly... > On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > > > Matthew Levy meandered fecklessly... > > and I'm gonna do it again, to respond to some of the things you've said. > Please bear with me ... No problem. Just for the record, the "meandered fecklessly" thing goes on every e-mail I respond too. Hopefully it wasn't taken as any sort of attack. > But the simple truth is that most of the time players just make > up the character as they go along, and their fear of low rolls has little > to do with character concept and a lot to do with infantile perceptions of > advantage. I guess this is just a difference in groups of players. The group I regularly game with comes up with character concepts before actually sitting down and using the rules to create the character. But, this statement should _not_ be construed as a statement that one method is better than the other. I have met people who have no hard and fast concept of their character until after a session or two of play, yet still come up with intersting, fleshed out PC's. > Believe me, I really have played in more games than I can even > count with people who believed a character with 3 or 4 "18" stats was > perfectly reasonable and that any stat which didn't receive a bonus (AD&D > rules) was a complete waste of time. Absolutely. I have run across such people often. Fortunately I am blessed with a group of players that don't feel this way. I understand not everyone is as lucky. > Anyway, I don't see random rolls as being incompatible with good > character concept anyway. Since I let players rearrange the sequence of > the stats, they can put their highest and lowest ones where they like .. > but of course, highest and lowest here is relative to the average, rather > than relative to some inflated standard. I agree that Random Rolls and Characer Concepts are not mutually exlusive, but it is possible for the dice and concept to end up not agreeing at times. It depends on certain extremes in concept. I have had concepts where stats were mostly irrelevant. But I have had concepts that were based on at least medium-high stats as well. For example, I was going to be playing in a Greyhawk campaign, and had a concept for a thief character. The character was more a sales- man than anything; he felt he could sell anything to anybody He was conceived as very Charismatic. When rolling stats, the best I rolled was a 13. Not exactly what I had in mind. No matter what I said, the GM made me stick with the rolls. I offered to move points, even on a 3:1 ration. Nope, too bad, play with what you got. Not surprisingly, I didn't have a lot of fun in the game, and wasn't dissapointed when scheduling conflicts ended it. > And when I create my own > characters, I like to take the rolls as they fall and make the character > around them. I find it more challenging and more interesting. As I said above, I find this method perfectly valid. Whether it is more intersting would certainly be a matter of taste, though. I don't particularly see it as more challenging or at least not in any way that is better than the other method. > Now, don't > get me wrong, I've played in games with high-stat characters before, but > they always felt implausible and uninteresting. A few things. One, this seems to have turned into more of a "High Stat vs. Low Stat" thing, which doesn't mean much to me. In my experience as a GM, I find high stats in D&D don't really mean that much. Sure, their handy, but not enough that I, as the GM, have to think or plan differently for the party and their adventures. Of course, this isn't true of all games. An 18 in GURPS means a lot more than it does in AD&D. Two, I am not sure what exactly you mean by "high-stat characters" If you mean one or more 18's and 17's, then, again, this doesn't mean much to me since this doesn't happen in my games. Third, I guess the concept of what makes a character intersting is a judgement that each person makes based on different criteria. I base such things on the character concepts, personality and background, not his stats, unless the player has got carried away. Finally, although it depends on how you define high stats, I don't don't necessarily see such things as implausible. I have met many groups of people in my life that were made up of people with what would be high stats. Hell, what kind of stats do you think Arnold Schwartzenegger (SP?) has? He is Strong, Healthy, probably fairly Dextrous, Intelligent and Charismatic. Besides, it is a fantasy game. I can do implausible. :) > Such games also tend to > be high in treasure and rate of experience gain, so before you really > get a chance to develop an interesting character in between wading hip > deep through bone devil carcasses and alphebatizing your magic item > collection, you're already so powerful that nothing is fun anymore. Also, > there is never any real danger in such campaigns, because the only thing > that can possibly kill you is having the stupidity to stand and fight in > the face of the hundreds of monsters the DM throws at you. Well, I think you are over generalizing here, as well as getting a bit extreme. High stats don't make Monty Haul campaigns, people do. Although MH campaigns tend to have characters with super-stats, there is no reason thereversemust be true. IMHO any GM worth his salt will simply not have a problem with this, if they wish to avoid such things. I mean its not like having an 18 Str means every creature is going to have a hoard of magic items for treasure. I feel there are many other factors that have far more affect on the game's level of power than stats, unless we are talking about character's with three 18's or whatever. > Admittedly I'm being slightly radical in the opposite direction, > but I think it's appropriate. The AD&D game now has more resources than > ever for running low-powered, but interesting, campaigns, and hardly > anyone ever seems to use them. But then my question is: "Should they?" What if they like intersting but high-power games? Though high power, at least at low levels, is not my style of gaming, I see nothing wrong with it. I don't believe in some objective decree that low-power games are "Good" and high-power is "Bad". It is, after all, a game, an people should play in whatever manner provides them the most entertainment. > I can see your point about the 3 intelligence character, in the > sense that it's hard to role play someone whose brain works fundamentally > differently from yours ... but it can still be done (although it usually > ends up with a lot of "dumb and dumber" type humor) I feel it would go beyond this. In AD&D a 3 Int is only two points more than Animal. A war or wild dog has in Int of 3! I think a human with an Int of 3 would be mentally retarded. > > (I once, as a GM, watched one of my players roll two > > 18's, a 17 and a 16 right in front of me, with my own dice!) And in > > none of these was the character "godlike". And, as the characters > > advanced through levels, the bonuses from stats began to make less > > and less of a difference. > > of course they did. that's because all the stats were relatively > high ... if you'd had characters with really low stats in these games, > they still would have been handicapped at higher experience levels .. > thus making the game more interesting. and having 2 18's, a 17 and a 16 > may not literally be godlike, but it's certainly absurd. who could relate > to a character like that? if i wanted that sort of thing i would play > marvel superheroes instead. I am not sure where you make the assumptory leap that all the other characters had high stats. Anyway, I certainly am not espousing play characters with stats like that; it is not the kind of stats my games have. Whether it is absurd or not is certainly debatable. I am sure their are people in this world with stats like that. Very rare of course, but they exist. > > And I have yet to have a problem with this. Better than average > > stats don't change this, don't turn a game into Hack 'n' Slash. > > > > You may be right, but I wonder what motivates players to feel a > need for stats higher than average, if it isn't a desire to be superior > and more powerful than everyone else ... The answer seems simple: because their character concept calls for it. Some concepts call for a character to be stronger, smarter, quicker or more charming than the average man. Always playing a character that has nothing to differentiate him from Joe Average strikes me as boring as always playing a super character. I agree that a novel base on the premise that the main character is average can be good, but how many are _truly_ based on this? IME, most such novels _seem_ to go with this, but there is almost always something that seperates the character from the masses. Most common this would be a higher Int or Wis. Besides, the concept of Joe Average does not have to mean _all_ low stats! I know of many people whom I would consider very average, but have one feature that would, in AD&D terms, equate to a high stat. The temp who runs the folding machine at work is quite the average guy, but is quite strong (15 or 16). A friend of mine is basically an average guy, but with a high Charisma. I know of several poeple in our MIS department who are very average, but would have high Intelligence scores. > > I have to admit I have a problem with this statement (other than > > just the language). It implies that one style of gaming is superior > > over another, which I feel is nonsense. Why is this style any less > > valid? It is a common theme in both written fiction and cinema, so > > why is it suddenly "horse shit" in a game? How is the "PC's are > > average Joes" style any more valid? > > > > Well, I am simply offering a considered opinion ... I apologize if > my coarse language has offended you, and I will desist from using that > phrase in the future. Offended me? Nope. In real life I could make a sailor blush (comes from growing up in California). I just don't see that as generally appropriate for a public list, though hardly a crime against humanity. :) > However, I don't think every style of gaming is > equally valid. Every style? I would agree. Most would. But not when simply comparing high-power and low-power. > You are of course free to play however you like ... ain't > nothin' I can do about that anyway, and why would I care? Sorry if this is not what you are trying to say, but the implication of this is that you think I play the kind of high-power, hack and slash games you mention frequently, and this owuld be an error. > What I am > trying to say is that in my experience, the superhero motif from fiction > and cinema eventually makes for a poor roleplaying experience ... A difference in experience, then. In my experience, a good player can role-play in a cinemstic game just as well as in a more normal level game. Seen it done many times. > in a > heroic novel or movie, you always know the hero will win, and I find such > books and movies relatively boring. To each his own. I watch different moves with different states of mind. I didn't watch Fifth Element because I though Bruce Willis' character might fail, I wathced it to see the manner in which he would succeed, hoping it would be new or intersting. Besides, the protaginist winning in the end in hardly exclusive to "heroic" fiction. Lots of more realistic, or dark and gritty films end in a similar manner. In addition, we are talking games, not books. The end of a game is generally left to be opened ended. How many GM's fully script their games, pre-deciding all notable outcomes? No good ones, IMHO. > > > In my campaign, I make all characters roll 3d6 for each stat > > > with no exceptions and no rerolls ... > > > > So what do you do when a player is genuinely dissatisfied with > > his characer because he rolled a gimp? Tell him to lump it? Doesn't > > this defeat the purpose of playing a _game_ for _enterainment_? > > Number one, I find it funny that you find my language offensive > considering the sort of slurs you find acceptable. To clarify, the word "gimp" should have been capitalized, and was a reference to a character from the film Pulp Fiction. It is the term our group often uses to refer to pitiful characters. It started after an evening's play when one of the players simply could not suceed with just about anything; his dice were not cooperating. Sorry to toss out inside referrences like that. > Two, if a player is > genuinely incapable of enjoying playing the character, then of course I'll > let him reroll. I'm not a rules Nazi, and I'm not going to chase players > away for the sake of purism ... that would be stupid. Sounds good. > however, 3) I think > that players can learn to play a character that they might otherwise find > unacceptable, especially when everyone else has disadvantages too ... Agreed, for the most part. > > The implication here is that "Good Stats" = "Power Focused" which > > is simply not true. > > why else would you care to inflate the stats that way? I don't recall inflating stats. Not sure what you mean here. > if ten is REALLY > average, then a thirteen is a really good stat and if you're just worried > about role playing, you can be happy with a 13 Looking at the scale, I would not call 13 "really good" in AD&D. Decent, yes. Certainly well above average. And I have played characters who had 13 as their highest stat. But not all concepts would work with a 13, though looking back I don't think I ever had a character in mind that required an 18. > > Leroy Van Camp III > > malacoda@lesbois.com > > owner-mystara-l@io.com > > > > "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." > > MST3K > > I hope that's not personal ... nothing I've said here was meant as an > attack, just a rant. Hope it comes across that way. Are you refering to the MST3K quote? That has been my standard .sig quote for quite some time. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 20:20:44 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Treasure and Divine Justice Matthew Levy meandered fecklessly... > Some > people, like Leroy, Whoah, whoah, whoah! If you are going to toss out people's names in these kinds of discussions, you really should know what you are talking about! > think that gaming is essentially about acting out > fantasies that you already have ... about emulating your favorite heroes > from fiction or being the uberstud you always wanted to be in real life. None of these describe my approach to gaming. Actually, I don't think I have ever explained what my approach to gaming is on this list, and am not real fond of people making assumptiions so they can use me as an example. > to act out a fantasy about myself, really, but to be in a fantastic world. > this can include being inside of a very different body, or having > different personality traits, but it's not really a "fantasy" in Leroy's > sense ... How did you arrive at my definition of what a "fantasy" is? > so that's my little blurb. i totally understand the kind of > gaming that leroy is talking about, but i guess i'm just bored of it. Again, I feel the need to say that the kind of gaming you are referring to is not how I play, which is what the above implies. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:16:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] [ADMIN] Sending Attachements to the List (was: Evil PCs) In a message dated 97-07-20 15:43:16 EDT, you write: << Kaviyd is correct. Not only can attachments over the mailing list cause problems for individual subscribers, it can wreak havoc on the list server as well. Thank you. >> Thanks for letting me know - -ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:14:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Hand-outs In a message dated 97-07-20 15:06:42 EDT, you write: << Here's my 2p's worth - I have works and Exchange if you want me to do it. Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon >> That'd be great! When it's finished I'll let you know. Also, I would still like to know what I have to put in the text to avoid plageurism(sp?).....if anyone could tell me what to write, it would help a bunch..thanks again - -ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:43:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores OKAY, I am going to try a new subject over you. Here it goes: Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such as weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:55:26 -0400 (EDT) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Re: Evil PCs On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-19 12:49:22 EDT, you write: > > << Basically, install the Postscript printer driver in windows, then when > you print, tell it to print to a file instead of the printer. (The > postscript driver has that option when you print.) You might play > around with it when you've got a slow afternoon. > >> > Nope. not a clue...sorry...that still doesn't tell me what a "postscript" > is. Thanks for trying, but otherwise let me know if you can explain it in > "dummy english" for me. thanks again > -ambyrus > Postscript is a printing standard basically. Its a way to tell the printer what to print. I think its vector-based which means you tell it to draw lines and curves instead of As and Bs, which helps with scaling and print sizes and such. There are programs that will read the same format a postscript printer will read and then show you what will be printed. If you print to a file (its an option on the print dialog) you'll get a fie you could just take and copy to the printer without any programs, or that you can read in one of these programs. Windows comes with a driver that will allow you to use this format. So install a Postscript Printer (even if you don't have one) and then print your document to it, but check print to file. It'll ask for a name. Instead of printing it will save the data it woud have sent to the printer to the file. You will then have a file in Postscript format. Any better? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:24:06 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores Hi! > Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such as >weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase >Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. > I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. IMC, there´s always the change to improve something or learn something through exercise. So if a PC invests 90 days for learning, he will get one proficiency slot, which he can invest only on the skill, he was learning for. The same is true for stats, I don´t know the rule exactly, but it´s something like: for every month training you´ll get 0.1 (or 10%) on this stat, except for high stats, where you´ll get less. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:27:07 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats > > What has happened over time > > is that pushy players have demanded higher and higher stats of weak-willed > > DM's, I completely agree with this statement (even if it hurts because I have, at times, been that DM). > I think this is true more in AD&D than D&D, because id D&D a very > high ability score doesn't help that much, but 17 and 18 in AD&D > gives some very nice bonuses to a character. This is a great point, and I think it's one reason why AD&D grew so much more popular tha OD&D despite it's enormous pricetag and various shortcomings (no offense to any AD&D fans, no system's perfect:-) Many people would just rather play a superhero. > I always thought it is interesting you can date a module by looking > at the pre-generated PCs or NPC's ability score... > I think one even have a sum of ove 100, but don't remember > who. i agree that this is an interesting quirk in the chronology of xD&D supplements, but higher-than-average scores for NPCs can often be explained by the fact that they are prominent people who have obtained their positions of power or influence because they are exceptional in some way. Particularly among demihumans, who have minimum score requirements, this could be true. > the traditional method, an 18 stat occurs for a given ability on one > in 216 characters ... not impossible but pretty rare. About a year ago, some of my players were having difficulty understanding the differences between high and low ability scores, so I made a graph to show them just how their scores stacked up (i.e., in a random sample of 216 people, only 1 has a Cha of 18, 1 has 3, but 110 people have Charismas in the average, or 9-12 range ..). By drawing this on normal graph paper, it was much more obvious how rare high and low scores really are. > This is all well and good, if this is what you are looking for. >Personally, I prefer that my players have characters they enjoy over >enforcing some mathematical equation. Wow, Leroy's criticizing me before I even send this! :~) But seriously, I agree that player (and DM) enjoyment are paramount. If your players are mature enough to handle it, score selection is certainly a great idea. It's just interesting to see how scores stack up against each other across the whole population. I disagree with the idea of generating scores mathematically, it's just to show the realtive frequencies. After all, it's mathematically possible to roll a character with all 18's, just REALLY unlikely:~) Then again, DMs could enforce mathematics and make every score be 10.5... Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:48:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores In a message dated 97-07-21 02:02:18 EDT, you write: << Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such as weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. -Ambyrus >> The old Cavalier Class from Unearthed Arcana had a method by which the Cavalier was allowed to raise abilities (STR, DEX and CON) slowly through training and experience. Each ability would be assigned a random %, like Exceptional Strangth (though the % wouldn't mean anything score wise, it would default to the base score). Thus, a Cavalier would have STR 16/56, DEX 14/23 and CON 17/92, but his abilities would only be 16, 14 and 17 respectively. He would then add 2d10 every level to the % score, and once a score would go above 100, it would roll over to the next level and begin again. Thus, if he added 2d10=12 to his CON of 17/92, it would become 18/04, and he would gain the bonuses appropriate to the new score from then on. I once adapted this to all classes, allowing them to assign a total of 6d10 to any number of abilities they wanted (the ability concentrated on could be changed from level to level). Thus, every ability could improve over time slowly (1d10 to each ability), or a few abilities could be concentrated on at a certain time (2d10 to three abilities), or even a single ability could be concentrated on (all 6d10 to one ability, though even that one ability would roll over only once every 3 or 4 levels on the average). Maximum was 18/00 in any case. It worked, but was slow... IIRC, the RPGA Living City characters get ability score raises by level, though I don't recall how often. I think it was every level up to 9th they got 1 point to add to any one ability, then 1 point every 2 levels thereafter. Now THAT'S power-gaming for you!!! But, if that's what you wnat, then it works... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:43:43 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Even though the question of the best way to roll the abilities will never be answered (it seems), here's my way... The player rolls 18d6 for the six abilities, assignating 3 dices for each ability. And to take off the really bad scores there are some options: 1. The player can roll all the dices again once. 2. The player can roo all one's again once. That is the player first rolls all the dices. After that he can roll either all of them or only 1's again if he wishes. And then either all of them or only ones (different from the first re-roll) again, if he wishes. This gives the player a chance to get about the kind of character he wants, but one that has some stability too. If you want a couple of really good stats, youll most propably get couple of bad ones too. Also note that the re-roll of ones will make the average go up a bit, so the characters wont usually bee too bad either. Then on the subject of rising the stats... (without magic) In my campaings you can raise at least some of the stats with hard work. But only with hard work. And sometimes with some side effects... Excample: Brother Theron of Vanya, a cleric was sentenced to hard labour for three years. He spent the time pushing carts at a stony field. In three years his strength raised from 12 to 14 thaks to the hard labour. BUT. Due to the dullness of the work, and to the shock of being convicted, living 3 years with stupid criminals, hes Intelligence dropped 1. Or then there was Brediric the barbarian, who wished to raise his int by studying in an university. And Behold, his intelligence did raise by one in a year, BUT at the same time, after spending so long a time in darkness, he did gain the disadvantage of the sun hurting his eyes. Giving him -1 to hit in daylight, -2 to thrown weapons (hit) Raising the stats takes time, work and (often) money. It's easyer to lower them stats though... 'The raise dead spell seamed to work. Icaros heart started to strike again. He took breath weakly. And then his eyes opened with a scream. The cleric Dagos took hold of he's friend, holding him thrue the worst moments. In a while Icaro relaxced a bit. But he was newer the same' Roll for CON failed, Con dropped by one, Wisdom dropped by one, gained a mild phobia for darkness and aged (bodily) for 6 years... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:53:35 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Evil PCs On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > Well, it's not exactly finished, but it is quite extensive as it is(i.e. >6 or so pages already). It's a MS Works *.wps file. If you want it I can send >it to you though. That would be great, if you could. Just send it as an attachment to me at (not to the whole list). > Also, I would love a copy of all three of your handouts. If you could >E-mail them to me I would appreciate it greatly. I think I may be going about >making this hand-out all the wrong way. Okay. Is anyone else interested, before I send them? I know one other person already said, and I have a note of your address already. Anyone else that wants a copy please e-mail me within a day or two (preferably). > << I think it's worth a try. One problem here is that it involves > effectively a whole adventure possibly being spoilt for him, and > possibly for everyone else, resulting in a lot of wasted effort from > you. But the result might be worth it, if he becomes more reasonable. >> > > I don't know if I'm willing to have my whole adventure spoiled. It takes >me a long time to think up an adventure (does that mean I'm not cut out to be >a DM??). Also, I feel that if I let him be a crippled kid, then if he changes >his mind once he realizes that being a crippled kid isn't very heroic[no >offense to any of the crippled kids on the list :-) ] and wants to be >something else, It'll be hard to get him back into this particular adventure. I wouldn't get to worried about not being "cut out to be a DM". I often have problems with coming up with good ideas too, as do all the DMs I know. The way I get round it is to go through reading interesting looking bits of the Gazetteer (or whatever) for the place you want the adventure to be. Not necessarily just the adventure section, but the personalities and location descriptions too. As you go, take a few notes when something sounds interesting, or when you think of a way to use a certain NPC, or whatever. Then when you're done, you should have enough to come up with at least a few adventures. And once you get going, your players will (if you're lucky) give you some ideas too. And I sympathise entirely with you about spoiling the adventure. When I had the same situation recently I decided it was better to force him to be something reasonable than to ruin an adventure for everyone. After the first adventure or two he started to get into his character a bit, so it's not so bad now. The other thing that you mentioned is one of the biggest pains - maintaining realism when your players have no respect for the "realism" of the setting. This is especially annoying with the kind of situation you have with an unrealistic character (at least in the hands of less experienced or skilled players) who spoils the sense of realism. I'm afraid I'm stuck for advice here. :-( > Well let me just explain how this whole crippled kid thing got started. >I am really tired of the attribute rolling system that my friend made[ 3d6 + >1d8 - the lowest die]. This is rediculous!!!! He chose this under the >reasoning that PCs are supposed to be heroes, not normal people. I get sick >and tired of playing in campaigns where every other attribute is an 18, and >no other attribute goes below 15!!! Yes, I know the feeling. There are a few approaches: (1) Don't let it bother you. Simply ignore it and apply negative modifiers to every dice roll the PCs ever make. Or you can be more cunning and (2) just give all monsters and NPCs similar scores. Things get kinda tough when every orc has a +3 to hit and damage bonus. ;-) (3) You can impose strict rules on rolling up stats, as you did. This is a little hard on players who are used to characters with no score below 15, let alone one below 9. So then there is (4) devise a system whereby the characters will have one or more high scores but at the cost of having some mediocre scores too. This last one is the method I have used recently. > Well anyways, I decided that in my campaign I was going to tone down the >attributes and I think they are kinda pissed. I decided that I want them to >roll the original, [ 3d6]. Well, I watched everyone roll and the the guy that >always has 18/00 strength got a 4 for an attribute, by the way, that's the >crippled kid :-). Well, believe it or not, even I was upset with that roll. >But he so stubbornly replied, "no, you wanted us to roll that way so I'm >keeping that 4. I'm going to put it on my intelligence." So I let everyone >pick one attribute to change to anything reasonable. So the one that got the >4 changed a 13 into a 3 so that he may put it as his wisdom. I was so angry. >I had everyone reroll with a different method, [3d6, reroll 1's].So these are >the three results for my players: There are lots of ways round this sort of thing, but the real problem here is with the player, not the rolling method. Just be firm and don't let him bug you. If he insists on keeping it, force him to put it in something which affects the rules rather than the role-playing, like Con or Str or Dex. The reroll 1's rule is a good one, by the way. >Jimmy--8, 16, 15, 14, 9, 13 >Scott--11, 14, 17, 11, 15, 14 >John Paul--15, 14, 10, 11, 9, 13 > I guess I'm still upset that none of the characters have any 18's. That's >one thing that I dislike about D&D: Some characters are more powerful than >others. Yep. The way I get round this is to assign points to each character, and allow the player to assign them to whatever scores they like. The template is three scores at 9, three at 18, which is a total of 81. Now if a player wants to have an 18, he will have to have a score of about 9-12 to compensate. This way you get equal characters but hopefully with a slightly different distribution of scores. I suggest you try proposing that to your players. > Well everyone remembers Rath from the Player's Handbook; how they gave >him an attribute explanation. I thought that that was a really neat way to >give flavor to a character. I even included a space on my character sheets >entitled, ATTRIBUTE EXPLANATION. It's cool to write up one for your >character, but it's no fun to write one up when your attributes are: 18, 18, >17, 18, 17, 17!!!!! I know what you mean. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #116 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #117 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Wednesday, July 23 1997 Volume 02 : Number 117 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:28:13 +0100 From: Martin Johansen Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such > as weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase > Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. > I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. > -Ambyrus Well, in my campaign (Mystara AD&D) I've developed my own rules for characters increasing abilities, slowly during their career. At first when the character is created, I'll roll percentage dice for the 4 most fitting stats for his class. The player is unaware of what exactly that number is! The rules are based somewhat on the Cavalier-rules from Unearthed Arcana, but improved to include all classes. I won't go into details at this moment, but in short: When a character has an opportunity to train and increase his other skills (= rises in level) he is going through some very demanding exercises designed for his particularly class. (fighters use their brawn, mages their brain, so to speak :) If he makes through without loosing a step (the player has to make some modifyed con-checks), he'll get from 3d10 to 1d10 added to some appointed stats, but changes only apply if a stat increases wholy to the next number. He'll also gain an extra bonus (+1 or +2) for hitpoints. If somebody are interested in more precise information, I could type it all in, so just ask. Martin - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - -Bilbo Baggins - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Johansen (m.johansen@aarslev.ou.dk) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:21:01 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] My name is not Mystara but Urt Reading the DM'S Guide to Inmortals i have come to a point that still puzzles me. Mystara, our precious home planet, is alive. And it's a Megalith, a creature from the Sphere of Matter with Empyreal rank, the largest known life form of the universe whose name it's Urt - I also think it sounds horrible -. A megalith's body has two distinct parts. You guessed, the core - in which the life essence resides - and the mantle. All this statements have answered me an old question and have suggested me new ones. 1) The answer : Before getting my hands on this book i always wondered who gave druids their clerical spells. Now i'm pretty sure earth does. A megalith starts with 5,000 power points, enough power to grant their follower prayers and do some other tricky things. It also can communicate by subtle manipulations of its mantle at no cost. 2) The Questions : ż How did it manage to survive with this hollow world inside ? The world-shield keeps it's mantle but ż what keeps it's core ? The book stats that the inmortals made special agreements with her ż Which benefits did she won for all this damage ? ż Are the rest of the planets, suns and moons megaliths too ? ż Can they communicate with their own relatives ? Please post your answers and questions too. I'm intrigued to see your thoughts about this topic. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:07:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [Mystara] Treasure and Divine Justice Leroy (and whoever else cares), My apologies for assuming too much about your playing style. i get a little carried away when the soapbox is under my feet. After reading your posts I see that we actually agree on a lot more than I had thought anyway ... and nothing I said was intended as other than friendly disputatiousness. Anyway I managed to ramble far away from my original quibble, which had nothing to do with you personally nor with your gaming style (which seems to involve choosing, rather than rolling, stats) ... my original point was that 4d6 (drop the lowest die) and other "improved stat generation" methods, which have been popular and in general use at least since the first publication of AD&D, inflate the stats of characters in such a way that the original balance of the rules is distorted and tend to lead to a general rule-bending competition based on incremental increases in PC power ... PC's (at whatever level) are generally far more powerful than they were "in the old days", and I think it makes the game less fun. I think if we could return to some of the challenges inherent in a stripped-down version of the game, it would be more fun to play. I can't singlehandedly convince everybody of that, and I know I'm in the minority. I just thought that perhaps I could win over a few people with my smooth logic ... :). For the record, I don't oppose powerful PC's in and of themselves. If somebody in my campaign beats the odds and gets a character with a couple of 18 stats and no flaws (which is hard to do with the traditional method), they're welcome to play it. often, I will even purposefully design special characters that are more powerful than average because they serve the plot in some way ... but i will then give them to the shyest, most unassuming players, so they won't get out of hand. I guess what I am really wary of is PLAYERS who WANT to have powerful PC's ... I don't trust them. I know that D&D is a fertile soil for many players' (and DM's) ego problems; this is why i try to keep the power level low and within the bounds of a tight interpretation of the rules. I will fudge rules from time to time if it makes the game go more smoothly, but not to protect players from risk or to (obsessively) further my own plot fixations ... both of these seem to circumvent the point of the game. And players who want to be invincible are the most likely to argue with the DM and disrupt the flow of the game needlessly ... players who are there mostly to role play as a kind of anthropological exercise and take the risks as they come are usually the most interesting. that's all. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:02:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores In a message dated 97-07-21 15:21:51 EDT, you write: << If somebody are interested in more precise information, I could type it all in, so just ask. >> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO THIS.....it sort of sounds like Chaosiums' Call of Cthulhu RPG in that you could raise the skills that you used during the adventure. Great! Post your rule.......thanks - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:16:44 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores At 00.43 21/07/97 -0400, you wrote: > OKAY, I am going to try a new subject over you. Here it goes: > > Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such as >weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase >Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. > I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. > I don't think you can raise your attributes, but nothing prevents you from raising your skills beyond your attributes. For example, let's suppose you have a Str 10 and let's suppose there exists a "weight lifting" skill. Using several skill slots on weight lifting you can end with a weight lifting skill of 10+3. BTW: are you sure that studying increases someone's Int also in real world? I know a few guys... :) Bye. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 19:46:11 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Depends on how late in the session and how many beers we've had! - ---------- From: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com on behalf of Leroy Van Camp III Sent: 21 July 1997 01:14 To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Alan Jones meandered fecklessly... > >> No, I guess I don't "dig." Though a 3 might be playable in > >>terms of the penalties it hands out, in terms of in game "reality" > >>and roleplaying, I find a 3 pretty much unplayable. The idea of > >>playing an AD&D character who is, for example, barely strong > >>enough to carry his own body masss, or barely intelligent enough > >>to string coherent sentences together just doesn't appeal to me. > > I think that fairly describes two of my players! Players or their characters? 'Cause if that describes actual people, sounds like they have some problems! :) Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:19:08 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats At 21.30 20/07/97 -0400, you wrote: >Matthew Levy wrote: >> >> I can see your point about the 3 intelligence character, in the >> sense that it's hard to role play someone whose brain works fundamentally >> differently from yours ... but it can still be done (although it usually >> ends up with a lot of "dumb and dumber" type humor) ... > >I had a friend who played a 3 Int fighter once, in a humorous campaign. >He was told to come up with a list of 20 words: EVERYTHING the PC said >had to come from that 20 word vocabluary. Tons of fun. Off the top of >my head, I can't remember much of his vocab, except that all weapons >were "sticks," and he combined two of his words to descibe a potion: >"magic-beer." Nice, but Int is not only talking. What about listening? Did he understood what his friends told him, especially when preparing a battle? And what happened when dividing treasures? Did he get a whole share or do the others easily cheated? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - PC in the Forgotten Realms Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 19:52:48 UT From: "Alan Jones" Subject: RE: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores I have used this in the past when a fighter was badly injured and laid up for some time. His muscles had weakened and I had reduced his strength. He trained with a gladiator school and rebuilt his muscles just before the Arena Of Thyatis adventure. It cost him time away from the party and much wonga but it gave him an insight into the characters of the Arena and helped flesh out the module. I only raised his stat back to the original maximum not above it. I would use the same techniques for other stats but again not to raise only to restore. Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon - ---------- From: owner-mystara-l@lists.io.com on behalf of Ambyrus@aol.com Sent: 21 July 1997 05:43 To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores OKAY, I am going to try a new subject over you. Here it goes: Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such as weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:45:38 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignments and a Proposal (was: Evil PCs) Diego Calugi wrote: > > Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > > > Beyond that, we need to get a schedule of NPCs worked out to discuss. > > Anyone care to submit a few names, or even a list of names? If so, I > > suggest you e-mail them to me privately so as to cut down on wasted > > bandwidth, and I will compile a list based on demand for the > > "personality" of each character. :-) > > I will, as soon as I have some spare time. > -Diego I started to write down a few names of npcs from the Kingdom of Karameikos which is, as someone suggested, the best known setting. The question is: how much accurate do we want this list to be? Should I consider every single npc from Gaz1 and K:KoA (not speaking of those in the modules...) or only the most important of them? Should we include also those who are death/disappeared? BTW Has anyone worked out the personal traits we are going to use in the descriptions? Thorfinn??? :-). - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:51:02 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Treasure and Divine Justice Matthew Levy meandered fecklessly... > Leroy (and whoever else cares), > My apologies for assuming too much about your playing style. i > get a little carried away when the soapbox is under my feet. After > reading your posts I see that we actually agree on a lot more than I had > thought anyway ... and nothing I said was intended as other than friendly > disputatiousness. These things happen. Apology happily accepted. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:59:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] My name is not Mystara but Urt Tomas Sanchez pontificated: > > Reading the DM'S Guide to Inmortals i have come to a point > that still puzzles me. Mystara, our precious home planet, is alive. > And it's a Megalith, a creature from the Sphere of Matter with > Empyreal rank, the largest known life form of the universe whose > name it's Urt - I also think it sounds horrible -. A megalith's > body has two distinct parts. You guessed, the core - in which the > life essence resides - and the mantle. I think the part of Mystara being a Megalith was removed when Hollow World is introduced. John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:58:00 -0400 From: "John W. Mangrum" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > Nice, but Int is not only talking. What about listening? Did he understood > what his friends told him, especially when preparing a battle? > And what happened when dividing treasures? Did he get a whole share or do > the others easily cheated? > I suppose the emphasis should have been on HUMOROUS campaign. To be specific, we were playing through Castle Greyhawk. In my case, I was playing a carnival performer -NOT a thief, thank you very much!- who's pet was Raimundo, the Amazing Elastic Weasel. In other words, this wasn't anything to be taken seriously. J.W.Mangrum ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:31:39 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [Mystara] My name is not Mystara but Urt On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 09:20:41PM +0200, Tomas Sanchez wrote: [Snip] > > 1) The answer : > [Snip] Certainly makes sense. > 2) The Questions : > > How did it manage to survive with this hollow world inside ? > The world-shield keeps it's mantle but ż what keeps it's core ? > I think that the HW assumes that Urt doesn't exit, and that Mystara is just made up of dirt etc. > The book stats that the inmortals made special agreements with > her Which benefits did she won for all this damage ? > Perhaps help for one of her(?) brethren elsewhere in the multiverse. > Are the rest of the planets, suns and moons megaliths too ? > Can they communicate with their own relatives ? > I guess that the suns would be kinda like fire elemental megaliths, since their makeup would be quite different to that of the planetary ones. Then again, look at the difference in the planetary megaliths. Perhaps only some of the planets are megaliths (Mystara/Earth, Mars, Mercury) while the others are not (Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun). > Please post your answers and questions too. I'm intrigued to > see your thoughts about this topic. Of interest is that Wrath made no mention of megaliths. I think the idea was dropped. Do DM's out there go by the latest canon material in this case (ie: Mystara is a planet) or by the gold box (ie: Mystara is also called Urt)? - -- "For a copper!" [The battle cry of Lynard the fire elemaster] knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au Home page: http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ finger -l for pgp public key ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:44:22 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > OKAY, I am going to try a new subject over you. Here it goes: > > Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such as > weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase > Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. > I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. > > -Ambyrus I generally allow training to increase ability scores, but certain stats are harder to increase than others. Also, the character must spend time each day training to keep the stat at it's new level or it will degrade back to it's old level. It allows some degree of increase, but is often more effort than it's worth. It's like going to the gym everyday. It's nice to be stronger, but is it worth the hassle? I think that strength is the easiest to increase, intelligence the hardest. Con or dex the next easiest, wis or charisma the next hardest. Glenn - -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | If you were plowing a field, what you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | rather use: two strong oxen or 1,024 http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | chickens? - Seymour Cray on parallel finger -l for pgp public key | processing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:06:57 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores > > Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? > I don't think you can raise your attributes, but nothing prevents you from > raising your skills beyond your attributes. I agree with Fabrizio here. Unless the scores have been temporarily lowered by something like illness, they cannot be raised (although, as mentioned, skills can.) When I DM, I have recently begun requiring characters with particularly high attributes practice for a certain time each day (for example, a character with 17 or 18 STR has to lift weights for an hour or two each day, and a high CHA character must spend time applying makeup or fixing hair, etc.) I still haven't formulated any real system for this, and it varies from campaign to campaign. If they continually neglect their exercise, the attributes will drop, but they can usually be restored through extra practice. The only other case where I would say practice might be able to change attributes is if someone pulls a "Drunken Fortnell" (WotI reference): if a character abandons his or her original class to start over again at lev. 1 in another class, the character might be able to change stats through practice (although this should be trading, not simply raising, points.) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:45:41 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] My name is not Mystara but Urt >On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 09:20:41PM +0200, Tomas Sanchez wrote: >Do DM's out there go by the latest canon material in this case >(ie: Mystara is a planet) or by the gold box (ie: Mystara is also=20 >called Urt)? I go by the "canon" that is the most useful to me (i.e. that which provides a small, usable set of game mechanics, interesting and playable adventures, and a detailed campaign world as a setting). The gold box is a lousy product. WotI is better, but Aaron was clearly rushed and did not finish thinking through all the ramifications (e.g. his Demons (Fiends - sheesh) have unlimited spell-casting abilities - this is SEVERELY unbalancing). In this case, I go by the Known World (Mystara - sheesh) is a planet because the megalith stuff from the otherwise brain-dead gold box adds nothing useful to my campaign but introduces unnecessary complications. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:22:43 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > > Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such as > weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase > Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. > I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. > > -Ambyrus IMO ability scores can't be raised with exercise, but I like the idea of raising skills (grazie, Fabrizio). However IMC I make ability scores change with time: a man is stronger than a boy, but as time passes, he will grow older (loosing strenght) and the boy will grow stonger. In the same way, an old man is wiser than a boy, though a boy is faster than him. Usually I don't change the ability scores themselves, but only their bonuses. So a boy with 18 at strenght will have only a +2 bonus (instead of +3), but when he will become an adult he will gain another point, loosing it during his old age. In this way, if an old man (strenght 18 +2) loose a point by magical means, he will be still 17 +2. I don't know if I have explain it clearly, but I don't think so... :-( - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:22:40 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] My name is not Mystara but Urt Glenn Butcher wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 09:20:41PM +0200, Tomas Sanchez wrote: > [Snip] > > > > Are the rest of the planets, suns and moons megaliths too ? > > Can they communicate with their own relatives ? > > > > I guess that the suns would be kinda like fire elemental megaliths, > since their makeup would be quite different to that of the planetary ones. > Then again, look at the difference in the planetary megaliths. The sun of our most loved world, is described in M4: Five Coins for a Kingdom (IMO a good adventure, full of interesting settings). Its core is formed by a large, hollow sphere, whose walls are pure black. Within it, there's a Fire Elemental Ruler (a 80 HD, 600 hp creature!) who rules over all the creature that can be found in the sun (which looks like the the Elemental Plane of Fire). > Perhaps only some of the planets are megaliths (Mystara/Earth, Mars, Mercury) > while the others are not (Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun). IMHO, only a few planets are indeed megaliths and most of them are found in the outer planes. I have my own theory about megaliths and immortals: Since they were created "at the same time as the multiverse", they were probably the first creatures which gained an immortal status. So, because mortals need a sponsor to attain Immortality (except Rad and some others, of course), who created the first immortals, who sponsored the others? This question has hunted me for years... Could it be possible for the life force of a megalith to leave its material body and become a "normal" immortal? This could explain many things, first of all the magalith's long dormant phase: during this long hibernation they simply become immortals. And it is also explained the mistery of Urt. Urt was a megalith who lived in the Prime. When the immortals became aware of the importance of that area, they beg him to leave his body, so that they could "cultivate life forms upon and within it" (maybe with this phrase someone at TSR anticipated the HW setting... :). What do you think? This is an interesting topic, any other ideas? > > Please post your answers and questions too. I'm intrigued to > > see your thoughts about this topic. Me, too. > Do DM's out there go by the latest canon material in this case > (ie: Mystara is a planet) or by the gold box (ie: Mystara is also > called Urt)? I usually try to make them fit together. When it isn't possible, I choose the one that looks better (in this case I would choose WotI). - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:09:11 PDT From: "Coreil Inveir" Subject: [Mystara] Mystara This is Coreil again. Sorry. I forgot- does anyone have or know where to get ZIP's of the Digests? EMail me: coreil@hotmail.com Visit my site: www.angelfire.com/co/coreil ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:05:25 PDT From: "Coreil Inveir" Subject: [Mystara] Mystara Hello! I'll post some stuff about my own Oriental setting in a little while, but does anyone have most of the GAZ's? I'm looking for: 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10. Send me some E's with anything that you have or any info on Mystara. I won't fill up the list with messages like this, though, so don't worry. Does anyone have information on the isle of Zxyl (or something spelt that way) off the coast of far-western Brun/Skothar? Who lives there? What kind of society? History? Classes? Pantheons? Drop me some E and we'll talk about Z. Thanx. EMail me: coreil@hotmail.com Visit my site: www.angelfire.com/co/coreil "When all else is gone, the game must be played by those who remember the day. For the day was long ago, when heroes were unique and tales were being woven for the first time. Spread the word that the past must return- we have let our wheels burn up, and the carriage must be splashed with water before it can move on to greater places." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:32:29 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [Mystara] Note about RPG Personal Code This note is to all who have written directly to me about obtaining a copy of the RPG Personal Code and to those who are interested but haven't written to me yet: I'm compiling a list of names and will mail out the files this weekend. If you want a copy and haven't asked for one yet, please mail me privately at asking for them. I currently have a text version of the original (which is very long) and a Word 97 'template' (which is much shorter and is really only nominally based on the original, but is what I use in my campaigns). I'm also going to make a 'text-only' version of the template. I will be sending all three files (text, template and text-only template) as attachments to all the addresses I've collected. I appologize, in advance, for sending more to each individual than they may need (i.e., some may not be able to use the Word 97 template), but it is easier for me to send the same thing to everyone. Jenni PS: If anyone is interested in a document for an earlier version of Word, please say so. I should be able to convert the template to Word for Windows 2.0 or 6 document -- Its plain enough that it should translate to either format easily. - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:24:17 +0100 From: Martin Johansen Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO THIS.....it sort of sounds like Chaosiums' > Call of Cthulhu RPG in that you could raise the skills that you used > during the adventure. Great! Post your rule.......thanks > -Ambyrus Well, here you are! I've just finished translating it from Danish, so please excuse me, if there are a few bugs. Just ask if something is unclear, comments are welcome. I might add that my players seems quite happy about the rules, but they are not exploiting them! MYSTARA - Rules for characters to increase their abilities. When a character initially is created, the DM rolls 5d10 for each of the following prime-requisites in the characters class: (modify them at your own pleasure, this is just my suggestions!) Table 1: Priority 1 2 3 4 - ------------------------------------------- Fighters Str Con Dex (?)* Priests(Clerics) Wis Con Str (?)* Priests(Druids) Wis Char Con (?)* Wizards Int Con Dex (?)* Thieves Dex Int Con (?)* - ------------------------------------------- * The 4th ability is chosen by the DM or randomly by dice. When a character rises in level, they have to spend at least two weeks of heavy training and concentration to increase their abilities. For each week the player has to roll 4 con-checks (a 1 means two checks made, 20 equals two checks failed!) In my opion, the kind of endurance that is needed during training is directly linked to the characters class and the prime-requisites mentioned above. The players therefore get a bonus to each of their con-checks, depending on their present value in ability number one. (see table 1) Value Bonus 01 - 14 : 0 15 - 16 : +1 17 : +2 18 : +3 Now to the training. I haven't described exactly what the characters are put through during this time, that's up to your own imagination. :) Notice the number after the VALUE tag! First period (1.-2. week): The player rolls eight modified con-check - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Missed roles 0 Training completed. VALUE : 0 1 One week's extra training with 4 con-checks more. ( -1 penalty on check ) 2 Two week's extra training with 8 con-checks more. ( -2 penalty on check ) 3 - ? Two week's extra training. (but the player doesn't need to roll any more check. His character simply cannot keep up!) VALUE : 5 Second period (3rd week): The player rolls four modified con-check - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Missed roles 0 Training completed. VALUE : 1 1 One week's extra training with 4 con-checks more. ( -2 penalty on check ) 2 - ? One week's extra training. (but the player doesn't need to roll any more check. His character simply cannot keep up!) VALUE : 4 Third period (4th week): The player rolls four modified con-check - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Missed roles 0 Training completed. VALUE : 2 1 - ? Training completed, just barely. VALUE : 3 CALCULATION OF INCREASE: Table 2: - --------------------------- Prime Requisite Rise 1 - 5 6d10 6 - 9 5d10 10 - 13 4d10 14 - 15 3d10 16 - 17 2d10 18 1d10 (only fighter-class) Note: Applied hitpoints cannot increase above the characters normal maximum! FINAL RESULT: (remember the value of VALUE? ;-) 0 +2 hitpoints for next level. Has increased all his prime-requisites mentioned in table 1. including the 4th ability with the number from table 2! 1 +1 hitpoints for next level. Has increased prime-requisites 1-3 mentioned in table 1 with the number from table 2!. 2 Normal hitpoints for next level. Has increased prime-requisites 1-2 mentioned in table 1 with 1d10 less than noted in table 2 above. 3 Normal hitpoints for next level. Has increased prime-requisite 1 from table 1 with 1d10 less than noted in table 2 above. 4 Normal hitpoints for next level. Has increased prime-requisite 1 from table 1 with 2d10 less than noted in table 2 above. 5 Normal hitpoints. No increase in abilities. That's it! Hope somebody can use it! - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - -Bilbo Baggins - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Johansen (m.johansen@aarslev.ou.dk) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:56:42 +0200 From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores At 00:43 21-07-97 -0400, Ambyrus@aol.com wrote: > OKAY, I am going to try a new subject over you. Here it goes: > > Is there a way to increase your Attributes without magical means? Such as >weight lifting to increase Strength//exercise to increase >Constitution//studying to increase Intelligence,etc.. > I would really like to hear some comments on this topic. > >-Ambyrus Hmmm, I've been thinking on this one. When you are lifting weights, you build up your muscles, and get stronger. But when you stop doing that (and not doing any more weight lifting and the like), you will probably get back to your normal strenght after a while. For INT, studying doesn't really help. Okay, you get some knowledge, but you learn faster and remember more. (What I've said might be incorrect...I'm only guessing) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:14:00 -0400 From: MRJohnson Subject: [Mystara] Lupins I recently got the new Dragon magazine and I thought I'd comment on Bruce Heard's article on lupins. It's great! The lupin history is great to have. It's good to have an indication of where they came from and the Hutaakan heritage makes a lot of sense. The various breeds also helps to add a whole new dimension to lupins, not to mention that some of the breeds are just downright hilarious! (I particularly like the Slagovic Gonic and the mention of the Beagle that was a pilot on Serraine.) I just have a couple of questions for Bruce. 1) The alignments for the Torreon Pit-Bull are listed as chaotic neutral to neutral evil. Does this include true neutral, or is it just chaotic neutral, chaotic evil, and neutral evil? A similar question applies to the Narvaezan Maremma, the Glantri Mountaineer, and the Grand Bloodhound which have alignments of lawful neutral to neutral good. Again, does this include true neutral? 2) What exactly is a foo-dog? Tabes 5 and 6 mention that some lupins have foo-dog bloodlines, but I'm afraid I don't know what a foo-dog is. Thanks. Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:34:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]: [Mystara] Increasing Ability Scores In a message dated 97-07-22 15:49:43 EDT, you write: << That's it! Hope somebody can use it! >> Thanks, I believe that I will adapt a system of raising attributes based roughly on your system...thanks again. - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:31:50 -0300 (EST) From: Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mystara On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Coreil Inveir wrote: > Hello! I'll post some stuff about my own Oriental setting in a little > while, but does anyone have most of the GAZ's? I'm looking for: 1, 3, > 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10. Send me some E's with anything that you have or any > info on Mystara. I won't fill up the list with messages like this, > though, so don't worry. Does anyone have information on the isle of > Zxyl (or something spelt that way) off the coast of far-western > Brun/Skothar? Who lives there? What kind of society? History? > Classes? Pantheons? Drop me some E and we'll talk about Z. Thanx. There is a group working on Skothar, on a project called MOrient (for Mystaran Orient). Our plans include Zyxl, that is just the a variant name created by a thyatian(?) merchant of the islandreal name in japanese, but I won't be telling more, for now. Things have been very slow there in these last months, I believe due to your summer, but we have already discussed much of it. It will only be sent to the list when we have something ready, so you might have to wait some months for it. Andre Martins ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:01:19 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: [Mystara] MOrient Project Since the topic came up on the list again and I have seen a number of new people on the list recently, I'll bring this up again. The MOrient group has been working on creating an Asian analogue on Skothar and Zyxl in Mystara. Things have been moving very slowly recently, as Andre mentioned, but if anyone is interested in joining the group, we could probably take another contributer or two. If you are interested in creating Oriental cultures on Mystara, you are creative, and you are willing to commit to this project, let us know. As Andre mentioned, we have many ideas that we have already agreed upon. This project has been evolving for many months now, and we've still got a long way to go, so anyone who would like to join will need to be willing to work with what the group as already decided (not that this will likely be a problem, but just in case...) So, if anyone is interested, go ahead and e-mail me & I will forward it to the whole group:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:18:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [Mystara] Oriental Stuff (Was:Re: [Mystara] Mystara) On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Andre Cavalcanti Rocha Martins wrote: > There is a group working on Skothar, on a project called MOrient (for > Mystaran Orient). Our plans include Zyxl, that is just the a variant name > created by a thyatian(?) merchant of the islandreal name in > japanese, but I won't be telling more, for now. I've been working on Patera/Myoshima, and have just sent a preliminary timeline off to Daniel Boese (though I'm not sure if he's around/available to answer email for the summer; I hope), and am eagerly awaiting his thoughts/additions/etc. As we clean it up a bit, I will post it to the list for further thoughts, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:21:05 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins At 16.14 22/07/97 -0400, you wrote: >I recently got the new Dragon magazine and I thought I'd comment on >Bruce Heard's article on lupins. > Lucky you! I guess I'll have to wait a few weeks before I see my copy in my mailbox (the real one :) ><...> mention of >the Beagle that was a pilot on Serraine.) I have a Beagle, but I don't think it would make a good pilot :) <...> >1) The alignments for the Torreon Pit-Bull are listed as chaotic neutral >to neutral evil. Does this include true neutral, or is it just chaotic >neutral, chaotic evil, and neutral evil? A similar question applies to >the Narvaezan Maremma, the Glantri Mountaineer, and the Grand Bloodhound >which have alignments of lawful neutral to neutral good. Again, does >this include true neutral? Narvaezan Maremma ? Maremma is an area of Italy not far (about 150 Km) from my hometown, it's an area like the Camargue in French and the "Pastore Maremmano" (Maremman Sheperd?) is also a kind of dog, but I don't see why "Narvaezan Maremma". Moreover Narvaez is a very religious country, while Maremma is often used instead of Madonna (the Lady) by swearing people (a popular pastime here in Tuscany :) Narvaezan Maremma sounds quite ironic. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #117 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #118 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, July 24 1997 Volume 02 : Number 118 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:24:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [Mystara] Paladins the real horrible class ! what's wrong with straying into politics? Mystara already has Nazis (storm soldiers), various radical subversives in Glantri, two "parties" (actually sects with political importance) in Ylaruam, etc., nationalist resistance in Karameikos (the Marilenevs and their Traldar allies) ... internal political struggle should be an even bigger part of Mystara storylines, if you ask me, and this is one place where alignment would actually be useful instead of just a pain in the ass. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 Wassellj@aol.com wrote: > jsmill >> said that > There's another drawback to being evil. Those obnoxious Paladins who are > determined to snuff out your existence in the name of "truth, justice," > and all that rot... > > Well at least we can all agree that Paladins are obnoxious. If we are having > so much trouble about evil characters and their alignments, what about those > paladins. As I have always played Neutral or Chaotic characters, they seem > just a little bit to zealous for my liking. Anyone heard of > authoritarianism, where the law or state is absolute over the wishes of the > individual ? Or are we straying away from Role-Playing and into politics ? > > The OD&D Paladins were lawful but those AD&D Paladins were lawful good. Is > there a wider scope for the behaviour of OD&D paladins ? My apologies if I > got that wrong as I have never played AD&D. Do they get to carry on a little > less goody-goody than the normal obnoxious paladins ? > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:24:49 -0400 From: MRJohnson Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > Narvaezan Maremma ? > Maremma is an area of Italy not far (about 150 Km) from my hometown, it's > an area like the Camargue in French and the "Pastore Maremmano" (Maremman > Sheperd?) is also a kind of dog, but I don't see why "Narvaezan Maremma". > Moreover Narvaez is a very religious country, while Maremma is often used > instead of Madonna (the Lady) by swearing people (a popular pastime here in > Tuscany :) > Narvaezan Maremma sounds quite ironic. I suspect the irony is intentional. The Narvaezan Maremma is described as a tall, snow-white lupin that is brave and amiable, and has very good visual senses, making it difficult to surprise (1 in 6) and capable of noticing hidden foes on a successful wisdom check. The Narvaezan Maremma is also called "The Serene Master of All He Surveys". The Maremma is also capable of becoming a paladin, which is not normally not allowed for non-human characters in AD&D (there are also a couple of other breeds of lupins that can become paladins, but not many). Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:38:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: Treasure and Divine Justice On 20 Jul 1997, Alan Shutko wrote: > >>>>> "M" == Matthew Levy writes: > > M> Some people, like Leroy, think that gaming is essentially about > M> acting out fantasies that you already have ... about emulating your > M> favorite heroes from fiction or being the uberstud you always > M> wanted to be in real life. > > You know, I have absolutely no idea where you got that idea. It makes > me doubt you've read Leroy's post. hang on! to the extent that i misinterpreted Leroy, I've already apologized. but I think you are misreading me ... I still think I've something of a valid point. to wit: > > His point was _not_ that he wants a high-powered campaign, or inflated > stats, or anything like that. no, he doesn't want inflated stats. but he insists that rolling stats the old way isn't good enough, because often the stats are too low ... which means that the only way he can solve his problem is to inflate stats ... but to his credit he also is worried about stats being too high! which is what you are also emphasizing ... i overlooked that. so he may not be focused on studdom, but he IS still focused on living out a fantasy - he thinks it's important for players to be able to live out a character which appeals to them conceptually. i don't share the same view of roleplaying, and that's what i've been arguing. > > He _did_ say (and I agree) that he prefers campaigns in which players > come in with a character vision and you assign stats to fit. He made > a rather big point that his characters tended not to go for > high-powered characters. Rather, they went for concept: like that > crippled Thatian kid we were discussing earlier. I think it would be > a great character, full of roleplaying potential and not a score > around 18. I could do it without a problem in Leroy's campaign. In > yours, I'd have to role and then ditch my character concept because > the scores were too good. > no, you wouldn't. now it looks like you haven't read my post, because i have already said that i often allow fudging of stats to fit character concept, just like Leroy, when it is really important to a player. ... especially when it makes the stats lower rather than higher (since i know the player isn't trying to gain raw power, just a character that fits their template) > Your emphasis on > > M> no dice roll fudging, no special rerolls, nothing. > > suggests that you're roll-playing and Leroy's role-playing. now hang on a blasted second!!! what I said was that i do not fudge or reroll dice in order to A) save characters from player decisions or B) force the story into a preconceived plot. In my campaigns, I am confident there is as much real role-playing as in any game. Often we will have entire sessions without combat, devoted solely to player character interaction, developing the nuances of character motivations, expanding their familiarity with the campaign background ... but my view is that if players want to take risks and enjoy the thrill of combat, they had better be prepared to take the risks, and if a favorite PC dies, they die. This encourages some of the most careful planning and character development ... when players know they can't just wade into combat without thinking, they find every strength and nuance in an inherently vulnerable character that they can. I know too many DM's who allow players to make characters that are geared towards heroic fantasy, who create elaborate "be tricked by the evil genius then discover his sick ploy rescue the princess kill the summoned entity with massive prejudice get the powerful magical hoard and return home" story lines, and then in practice what happens is that the PC's are led around by the nose from preplanned scenario to preplanned scenario, facing a lot of combat and dice rolling but never any real *danger*, since the DM often fudges things in their favor as long as they do not dare to deviate from his plot, and the worst trauma is when a PC gets knocked unconscious and has to resuscitated, or maybe even worse when the clerics run out of healing spells and can't restore everyone to their full massive hit point total after every combat ... it's an inherent flaw in the original D&D system that hit points serve as a kind of combat fuel gauge ... it's always easy to tell by looking at your total when you are running low, and it makes characters into power storage units who just have to find a space to recharge before going to the next room or level or encounter or whatever ... spell memorization rules do the same thing. i like D&D anyway because it is a richly elaborated and convenient system, but as far as combat realism goes i think the new critical hit rules are an incredible improvement, though not even as good as (i cringe when saying this, and hate myself), something like Rolemaster, which is totally unweildy but much more realistic about the nature of violence. So what I am talking about is not roll-playing for the sake of competitive crapshooting ... I am just talking about adding a more significant random element that ought to be there in risk situations, to make the risk real. without it, DM's and players can too easily subconsciously conspire to make everything always come out happily in the end, and I hate that. I should have added to my earlier comments about fantasy fiction that my favorite novels or stories are ones where my favorite character dies randomly and without meaning ... or at least i wish there were more stories like that. I also enjoy Mystara especially because I know it well enough and it is detailed enough that I can create a story around PC's spontaneously as they go without having to constantly plan everything and then forcefully guide them to stick within the plot ... I often have grand plot schemes like any DM, of course, but I resign myself to the probability that they will not turn out how i like ... case in point, here is the story of just one PC in my campaign ... The Amazing Lorelei is the daughter of a master bowyer from the Alphatian colonies on Belissaria (she is from a small town near Alinquin) ... she was the rebel black sheep of her family and in her teenage years began clandestinely seeing a local thug who was intimately connected to Zz'onga smuggling. After discovering exactly how evil he was, she stole money from him and ran away, catching passage on a ship to Trikelios on the Isle of Dawn. There, she used her skill at archery (she is a specialized sharpshooter-thief) to gain a job as a trickshooter with a traveling circus, where she befriended another PC, a quasi-civilized Orc fortune teller who was seeking arcane magical knowledge ... this Orc became entangled with a man named O'Shaughnessy, a criminal type from Dunadale (but actually a powerful and important NPC from my campaign in disguise), who had a very important magical item, which he had stolen through trickery from a minor Karameikan nobleman named Baron Redburgh (recently given a title in my campaign) with ties to the Veiled society and various sections of the Glantri underground. This O'Shaughnessy needed to get the item to the high priest of a tribe of humans called the Mehirgudi living in the Isle of Dawn highlands west of Thothia, and was hoping he could use the naive curiosity of the Orc to his advantage my using him to carry it there (since he knew that low level characters couldn't use the item, and that his enemies, who wanted the item back, would never suspect two low level nobodies) ... things went awry when the two PCs were trying to figure out an unrelated subplot at the travelling circus and happened upon an Elvish smuggler named Lathrian Jarrow who knew about magic items and showed him their prize ... Jarrow was being stalked by a hired assassin-mage named Ronson Grunwald, and the two PCs ended up being present at a confrontation between the two, which turned into a mid level mage shootout, bringing the roof of the inn down around them ... both PC's narrowly escaped (no fudging), and even managed to make off with a stash of magic items; but because of the chaos caused and because of Jarrow, the Karameikan baron and his underworld allies discovered them, almost capturing them in the streets of Trikelios before they escaped and fled to a small fishing village on the coast nearby ... here they stuck out like sore thumbs due to their complete inexperience and unfamiliarity with native culture, so they were discovered by a powerful NPC gold dragon who lives in the village (and this was NOT me throwing in things intentionally ... the dragon has been there in my campaign for years, and it was really dumb luck they ended up in the right village) ... the gold dragon figured out (sort of) what was going on, and decided for their own safety, until he could figure out where the magic item came from and who wanted it and why, to teleport them to stay with a friend of his, a mage who lived on a small island in Minrothad. This mage decided that he didn't want them around his island, and figured they could figure out for themselves what the item was in Glantri!!!!! He teleported them there, at which point the naive Orc PC tried to get people at the Great School and the Library to look at his magic item (which was a book), and as luck would have it, he attracted the attention of Angus McGregor, who captured him and stole the book. Meanwhile, Lorelei had managed to attract the attention of a cartel of Glantrian subversives (another party of PCs that she linked up with), who were stalking Angus. They arranged an elaborate plan to capture Angus at the City Library, which failed miserably and ended up getting the leader of the cartel captured and taken back to Castle Crownguard. Lorelei and her new friends then retreated to the group's secret hideaway in Vyonnes, where they planned (naively) a commando assault on Castle Crownguard!!! this was also a miserable failure, ending in several PC deaths, but the cartel leader managed to get free anyway. The party fell to bickering and every-man-for-himself behavior, and the Orc PC decided to go hide in a cave nearby and try to acheive inner peace (i.e. the player quit the campaign ... i don't feel too bad, he didnt seem happy with D&D in general) ... Lorelei managed to make off with a couple of minor magic items on loan from the Glantrian subversives (she is chaotic neutral after all), then found herself work as an archer-guard for a caravan travelling to Selenica ... and she got a pay bonus along the way by agreeing to be a courier when the trip was over by hand-carrying a letter which had been magically sent by a Glantrian citizen in Tanakumba to her brother in a mining town in the Altan Tepe through the Glantrian consulate (which is set up to receive magical communiques) ... Lorelei went to deliver this letter (which was written by a PC in another subcampaign i am running, and contains politically vital information about the activities of the heldannic knights and hattian storm soldiers in the far west) and walked right into an already ongoing plot (another PC party) involving competition between the Heldannic Knights and the Selenica Thieves' guild over the ruins of an ancient dwarvish city hidden under a cobalt mine in the wilderness on the Rockhome border, which dates to the time of the Rain of Fire and contains important evidence about the radiance (though no-one except a Glantrian spy who is manipulating the Selenica crime syndicate knows this) ... Lorelei ended up delivering her letter without knowing what was going on, thus making her a target for the Heldannic Knights, who are paranoid about Glantrians in general and have been watching the person she delivered the letter to ... the local Heldannic commander tried to have her assassinated, at which point she joined a group of PC assassins, originally hired by the Knights, who had since turned against them and were trying to manipulate the whole situation to their advantage as a third party ... this group then decided to make a counterattempt on the life of the Knight's commander, and walked into a carefully prepared ambush which resulted in Lorelei getting shot point blank with a harquebus ... at which point an argumentative and pushy player (one who doesn't like not controlling his character's reality) disrupted the game and we never got back to it ... so we don't know if Lorelei has survived or not. Now, you may think this sounds like fun roleplaying or a bewildering mess, but the point that's interesting to me is that there is absolutely no way anyone could have known how the campaign would turn out or where the twists of fate would take Lorelei ... but the player had a good time and so did I. Less flexible players do admittedly find my DMing style frustrating, but I stand by my theory and I love the richly layered detail my Mystara campaign has developed over the last 16 years. > > M> After all, you can always make another character. I like making > M> them, and if players don't want to spend the two hours or so > M> required, I will gladly make a character for them ... > > How much investment can you have in a character when they die off > quickly, and you can't even develop much of a background because you > have no idea what you'll have when you roll? I much prefer campaigns > where people spend time developing motivations, personality and > background and play to that rather than waste a few months of > roleplaying while I'm trying to figure out who I am. > first of all, you begin making character background AFTER you roll the character's stats, or maybe during ... and i use random background events etc. too ... this does NOT inhibit player creativity, in fact it encourages it. And the player characters i've seen are pretty well developed, though new detail is always added as we go along. my style doesn't just result in a higher casualty rate, it results in more caution about getting into combat, which produces a more believable world and better role playing. there are players whose characters die off quickly, but that's usually because they are used to playing in the more mainstream cartoonish style of D&D where swords and arrows don't really hurt and combat is the default mode for dealing with everything. in my experience anyway, when a player creates a character out of whole cloth in their mind before they generate stats, the character is often less well detailed and/or plausible and interesting than by my method. Players are too quick to create characters who are superhuman, or ridiculously weird, or superdistinctive in some way. ... even the "cripples" are still "special" in a really specific way. i think this is just modern society ... we all want to be unique and special. i'm like that too. but in D&D the nice thing actually is that i can get away from that and just be some random dude ... and often i learn some interesting things about human nature that way. i guess it's the difference between being a character actor and a leading man ... i always think leading men are boring. anyway, that's my rant for today. if this is getting old just smack me, i can take it. peace, m@2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:42:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [Mystara] MOrient Project You know, I think I agreed to help with this a long time ago, but forgot about it when I signed off the list after the messages got too many during crunch time in the school year. Now I'm back, but I don't know what you guys have done in the meantime ... last I remember there were to be amazon samurais on Zyxl, and black demi-ogres on Skothar ... and something like Burma a little west of that. That's all I can recall. What else is up? m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Patrick wrote: > > Since the topic came up on the list again and I have seen a number of new > people on the list recently, I'll bring this up again. > The MOrient group has been working on creating an Asian analogue on Skothar > and Zyxl in Mystara. Things have been moving very slowly recently, as > Andre mentioned, but if anyone is interested in joining the group, we could > probably take another contributer or two. If you are interested in > creating Oriental cultures on Mystara, you are creative, and you are > willing to commit to this project, let us know. > As Andre mentioned, we have many ideas that we have already agreed upon. > This project has been evolving for many months now, and we've still got a > long way to go, so anyone who would like to join will need to be willing to > work with what the group as already decided (not that this will likely be a > problem, but just in case...) > So, if anyone is interested, go ahead and e-mail me & I will forward it to > the whole group:) > Patrick > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:08:07 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins Michael & Fabrizio wrote the following comments: >1) The alignments for the Torreon Pit-Bull are listed as chaotic neutral >to neutral evil. Does this include true neutral, or is it just chaotic >neutral, chaotic evil, and neutral evil? A similar question applies to >the Narvaezan Maremma, the Glantri Mountaineer, and the Grand Bloodhound >which have alignments of lawful neutral to neutral good. Again, does >this include true neutral? Good point. Pit Bull (no -- no true neutral, ever). Narvaezan Maremma, Glantri Mountaineer, Grand Boudhound -- yes, although this may be an unusual alignment choice for these lupins. >What exactly is a foo-dog? Tabes 5 and 6 mention that some lupins >have foo-dog bloodlines, but I'm afraid I don't know what a foo-dog is. A foo-dog was an AD&D oriental adventures creature, some sort of magical Chinese dog. Suddenly, I wonder if the foo-dog was a 1st Edition monster. Is it not available in 2nd Edition AD&D? Have I erred somehow? (a doubt, a cruel doubt...) >Maremma is an area of Italy not far (about 150 Km) from my hometown, it's >an area like the Camargue in French and the "Pastore Maremmano" (Maremman >Sheperd?) is also a kind of dog, but I don't see why "Narvaezan Maremma". >Moreover Narvaez is a very religious country, while Maremma is often used >instead of Madonna (the Lady) by swearing people (a popular pastime here in >Tuscany :) >Narvaezan Maremma sounds quite ironic. Correct. The real world Maremma is a dog breed from Italy, from which the Navaezan Maremma lupin was inspired. This was intentional (and meant as an ironic choice) on my part. The Maremma lupin is one of the few lupins that can be a paladin, although it is not human. As a side note, I would not allow mongrels unlimited paladin levels, as the article presently shows (8th level is probably better). It was difficult in some case coming up with fantasy names for the lupins' *derivatives* since many of the names given to dog breeds are real world geographic names (try this -- Yorkshire, Pekingese, Dalamatian, Great Dane, German Shepard, French Hound, Old English Sheep Dog, Mexican Hairless, Chinese Crested, etc...) Some got *translated* into new lupin terms that were still reminiscent of the connection with the real world dog breed, in other cases, like the Maremma, it got a bit harder without losing something in the process. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:20:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins I was wondering: Does this article on Lupins place Lupins in places besides the Savage Coast? - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:45:19 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins In a message dated 97-07-23 15:11:41 EDT, you write: << I suspect the irony is intentional. The Narvaezan Maremma is described as a tall, snow-white lupin that is brave and amiable, and has very good visual senses, making it difficult to surprise (1 in 6) and capable of noticing hidden foes on a successful wisdom check. The Narvaezan Maremma is also called "The Serene Master of All He Surveys". The Maremma is also capable of becoming a paladin, which is not normally not allowed for non-human characters in AD&D (there are also a couple of other breeds of lupins that can become paladins, but not many). >> Gee, I could not have said this better! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:29:28 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Shin> I think the part of Mystara being a Megalith was removed when Shin> Hollow World is introduced. I have not the Hollow World Box. Thanks anyway for the appointment. Glenn> Perhaps help for one of her(?) brethren elsewhere in the Glenn> multiverse. I'm wondering where all this material went. Maybe Matera and Patera were created from her own mantle. But i'm still uncertain about its purpose. Glenn> I guess that the suns would be kinda like fire elemental Glenn> megaliths, since their makeup would be quite different to Glenn> that of the planetary ones. Then again, look at the difference Glenn> in the planetary megaliths. Perhaps only some of the planets Glenn> are megaliths (Mystara/Earth, Mars, Mercury) while the others Glenn> are not (Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun). It sounds plausible that natives from the elemental planes could assume Megalith state after reaching empyreal status. Then Megaliths would be mostly composed of the appropiate element. Glenn> Of interest is that Wrath made no mention of megaliths. I think Glenn> the idea was dropped. I have not the Wrath of the Inmortals yet. I hope my players didn't forget my birthday and send a request to dragontrove - If they want to keep alive :) Glenn> Do DM's out there go by the latest canon material in this case Glenn> (ie: Mystara is a planet) or by the gold box (ie: Mystara is Glenn> also called Urt)? Neal> In this case, I go by the Known World (Mystara - sheesh) is a Neal> planet because the megalith stuff from the otherwise brain-dead Neal> gold box adds nothing useful to my campaign but introduces Neal> unnecessary complications. Well, I'll be glad to hear whatever argument you've developed to explain where do your druids gain their spells from. Diego> The sun of our most loved world, is described in M4: Five Coins Diego> for a Kingdom (IMO a good adventure, full of interesting Diego> settings). Its core is formed by a large, hollow sphere, whose Diego> walls are pure black. Within it, there's a Fire Elemental Ruler Diego> (a 80 HD, 600 hp creature!) who rules over all the creatures that Diego> can be found in the sun (which looks like the Elemental Plane of Diego> Fire). Weird, I'll take good note of it. I conclude by your words he's on the way to complete the task we referred above of becoming a Megalith. If my guesses are right all other elementals would have been summoned by him to aid his cause. Anyway, it would help too much to have a deeper report about this case. Diego> who created the first immortals, who sponsored the others? The Old Ones ? Diego> Could it be possible for the life force of a megalith to leave Diego> its material body and become a "normal" immortal? Interesting idea. Maybe we should ask ourselves if her present body is or not a mere avatar. At least, you could argue she is in the prime plane which is clearly not an outer. Anyway, we should have present that TSR tried to create an alternate Gaia. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:22:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins Bruce; Just curious, did you base "Arsane Lupin", the Blue Bandit, on the series of novels or the more recent cartoon? (I couldn't help chuckling when I read the reference.. :) ) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:39:31 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt > It sounds plausible that natives from the elemental planes could > assume Megalith state after reaching empyreal status. Then Megaliths > would be mostly composed of the appropiate element. You should pick another name, though, for other elements than matter: megalith means enormous rock :~) > I have not the Wrath of the Inmortals yet. I hope my players didn't > forget my birthday and send a request to dragontrove - If they want > to keep alive :) Indeed, not having WotI could drive anyone to murder! I advise you to get it ASAP. > Well, I'll be glad to hear whatever argument you've developed to explain > where do your druids gain their spells from. I can't answer for Glenn, but IMC, druids may receive spells from any of a number of nature-oriented immortals, i.e. Zirchev, Ordana, Terra, Djaea, etc. > Diego> who created the first immortals, who sponsored the others? > > The Old Ones ? That's what I think. Of course, the question becomes "Who created the Old Ones?" but that can go on forever > Diego> Could it be possible for the life force of a megalith to leave > Diego> its material body and become a "normal" immortal? > > Interesting idea. Maybe we should ask ourselves if her present body > is or not a mere avatar. At least, you could argue she is in the prime > plane which is clearly not an outer. Anyway, we should have present > that TSR tried to create an alternate Gaia. Perhaps the immortal Djaea is Urt herself? patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:49:01 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins In a message dated 97-07-23 17:59:35 EDT, you write: << Does this article on Lupins place Lupins in places besides the Savage Coast? >> Depending on the lupin *breed*, pretty much anywhere in the Known World, Ochalea, Savage Coast, Norwold, and even... Nithia (sorta). Now how about some further *half-breeds* with ogrish blood, or other demi-human blood, just for kicks? Anyone cares to jump in? :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:05:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Alignment; was Horrible class (in my opinion) In a message dated 97-07-19 09:01:40 EDT, you write: << Spheres seem to be more important than alignments when it comes to alliances. Any opinions on this? Haavard R. Faanes >> Exactly. And the various alliances (groups, cliques and such) are even more important than Sphere at times. I've been trying to develop an alignment system predicated on this phenomenon, but not terribly successfully to date. It's something like the alignment system from the old Powers & Perils game from Avalon Hill, with a mix and match of Pantheons, Churches and Sects. Needless to say it is somewhat more convoluted than the current system, but more accurate without being overly influenced by modern concepts of ethics and morality... truly medieval, one might say... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:48:04 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > Depending on the lupin *breed*, pretty much anywhere in the Known World, > Ochalea, Savage Coast, Norwold, and even... Nithia (sorta). Now how about > some further *half-breeds* with ogrish blood, or other demi-human blood, just > for kicks? Anyone cares to jump in? :) Only to say I picked up the article today (after eagerly anticipating it for months) and I must say, it was quite a bit more than I was expecting. I know you mentioned you had created a few breeds of Lupins, but I was expecting maybe three or four. Wow. I am overwhelmed. :) Of course, that merely serves to whet my appetite. I want to know more about the various breeds of Lupins- where's the history, man? Not to mention the timeline of the Lupins in general... ;) On another note: in a similar vein to Bruce's article, I have developed a few breeds of Rakasta from Patera... well, really only one, that being based on the Iriomote cat of Japan (which as far as I can tell, is the only indigenous feline to the Japanese islands). Of course, the obvious Siberian Tigers of Rajahstan, and all the cats that exist in the various Southeast Asian countries. Not to mention Mystaran breeds of cats, from the varied migrations of the Rakasta to that planet. Anyone care to have a go at them? I've only got the barest ideas of differing breeds worked out, myself, as there is a lot of other work to be done on the (merely preliminary! yeesh...) moon of Patera, home to all those cuddly widdle cats we know and love... :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:19:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins In a message dated 97-07-23 22:31:11 EDT, you write: << Depending on the lupin *breed*, pretty much anywhere in the Known World, Ochalea, Savage Coast, Norwold, and even... Nithia (sorta). Now how about some further *half-breeds* with ogrish blood, or other demi-human blood, just for kicks? Anyone cares to jump in? :) Bruce Heard >> Any in the "known world"? - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:14:09 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [Mystara] Rising to My Defense Once Again (was: Treasure and Divine Justice) Yes yes, this is getting old, I know. Hopefully this is petering out. Still, something incorrect about me has been posted and I must again clarify. Matthew Levy meandered fecklessly... > > His point was _not_ that he wants a high-powered campaign, or inflated > > stats, or anything like that. > > no, he doesn't want inflated stats. but he insists that rolling stats > the old way isn't good enough, because often the stats are too low .. > which means that the only way he can solve his problem is to inflate stats Sorry, but this is incorrect. As I said often in my posts (which I went back and read), I do not inflate stats. I am not sure where you get this. And, again, I do not allow characters to choose their stats because I think random methods produce low rolls. Again, I let players choose stats because it allows them to more accurately model the characters they had in mind before they came to the table. I do not feel stats are too low. As I said, unless the players get carried away, I don't really feel _anything_ about stats! I don't "inflate" stats because I don't really care! I am more intersted in intersting character concepts than numbers, in my players having a good time with a character they enjoy than with attribute logistics. I have mentioned it before, and I will say it once more (that rhymes!): The stats of my player's characters have no real influence on the stories I create, and they have only a minimal influece on the progression of the game. A strong fighter will kill some creatures more easily. A wise priest will be able to heal people a bit more often. BUT, in my experience high stats have less of an impact than thoughtful actions and good roleplaying. > ... but to his credit he also is worried about stats being too high! which > is what you are also emphasizing ... i overlooked that. Yes, this is mostly correct. I concur that a plethora of high stats starts to strain believability. > so he may not be > focused on studdom, but he IS still focused on living out a fantasy This is just a bizarre leap of logic. I have no idea where you get this from, this "living out a fantasy" thing you have come up with. I have not given anyone enough information for anybody to judge what it is I play a game for. Sorry, but you have no clue on what I focus on in a game. All I have said in my posts is basically... 1) I prefer that my players be allowed to fully realize their character concepts through choice rather than the fickleness of dice rolls, as long as they are within certain bounds. 2) That if people enjoy playing high-stat characters, there is nothing wrong with this. Having high stats in a game does not mean it will descend into Monty Haulism or poor roleplaying I never stated that I prefer these types of games. How does any of this imply that I trying to live out a fantasy of mine? Where do you get this? - - he > thinks it's important for players to be able to live out a character which > appeals to them conceptually. i don't share the same view of roleplaying, > and that's what i've been arguing. OK, this statement is not totally clear, so it is hard to respond. The phrase "live out" seems to harken back to the whole "live out a fantasy" silliness. If this is true, then I won't bother with it. Now, if by "live out" you simply mean "roleplay", then I have to fully agree. AAMOF, I am fully unable to comprehend playing any other way. How can someone play a character well if they have no interest in the concept behind the character? It's like regularly eating a food you don't like, despite that there is plenty of stuff you do like available. "I hate red, but I think I will buy a red car anyway." Are you saying you prefer to play characters you have no interest in? Did I seriously misread this? > anyway, that's my rant for today. if this is getting old just smack me, i > can take it. Matthew, I don't want to smack you. I don't hate you, am not looking for bad blood or a flame war. But, for some reason you keeping using my name in sentences where it does not belong. You have made some weird leap in logic about me and how I play, and insist it sharing your thoughts with others on the list. I simply have not given enough information for you to come up with the conclusions you have. Some of your statements are in direct conflict with what I have said in previous posts. I hope this is cleared up. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@io.com "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:32:38 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 04:39:11PM -0700, Patrick wrote: > > It sounds plausible that natives from the elemental planes could > > assume Megalith state after reaching empyreal status. Then Megaliths > > would be mostly composed of the appropiate element. > > You should pick another name, though, for other elements than matter: > megalith means enormous rock :~) > Megapyre? Megawave? Best watch out for their parents, Gigawave and Terawave. Of course, the biggest one of all....googolwave! > > I have not the Wrath of the Inmortals yet. I hope my players didn't > > forget my birthday and send a request to dragontrove - If they want > > to keep alive :) > Indeed, not having WotI could drive anyone to murder! I advise you to get > it ASAP. > Definitely. > > Well, I'll be glad to hear whatever argument you've developed to explain > > where do your druids gain their spells from. > I can't answer for Glenn, but IMC, druids may receive spells from any of a > number of nature-oriented immortals, i.e. Zirchev, Ordana, Terra, Djaea, > etc. Ditto. I don't have Mystara as a megalith, although I could change it with no one the wiser I suppose :) > > Diego> who created the first immortals, who sponsored the others? > > > > The Old Ones ? > > That's what I think. Of course, the question becomes "Who created the Old > Ones?" but that can go on forever > Thus we have the question of who created the universe. > > Diego> Could it be possible for the life force of a megalith to leave > > Diego> its material body and become a "normal" immortal? > > > > Interesting idea. Maybe we should ask ourselves if her present body > > is or not a mere avatar. At least, you could argue she is in the prime > > plane which is clearly not an outer. Anyway, we should have present > > that TSR tried to create an alternate Gaia. > I think that Urt is much like the idea of Gaia. Perhaps there are priests out there who preach the idea of the planet as a living thing, and so it should be left alone. Then one day they get spells? "Those peasky immortals aren't doing what thery said they would. Those mortals are sticking big holes in me etc. I'm just have to do something about it myself." The shaft(s) to the hollow world anyone? > Perhaps the immortal Djaea is Urt herself? > Perhaps. Perhaps Djaea is an avatar of Urt? > patrick - -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | If you were plowing a field, what you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | rather use: two strong oxen or 1,024 http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | chickens? - Seymour Cray on parallel finger -l for pgp public key | processing ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #118 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #119 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Sunday, July 27 1997 Volume 02 : Number 119 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:19:43 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 11:29:08PM +0200, Tomas Sanchez wrote: > Glenn> Perhaps help for one of her(?) brethren elsewhere in the > Glenn> multiverse. > > I'm wondering where all this material went. Maybe Matera and Patera > were created from her own mantle. But i'm still uncertain about its > purpose. Maybe Matera and Patera are her children? > It sounds plausible that natives from the elemental planes could > assume Megalith state after reaching empyreal status. Then Megaliths > would be mostly composed of the appropiate element. Sounds like a good idea actually. > Diego> The sun of our most loved world, is described in M4: Five Coins > Diego> for a Kingdom (IMO a good adventure, full of interesting > Diego> settings). Its core is formed by a large, hollow sphere, whose > Diego> walls are pure black. Within it, there's a Fire Elemental Ruler > Diego> (a 80 HD, 600 hp creature!) who rules over all the creatures that > Diego> can be found in the sun (which looks like the Elemental Plane of > Diego> Fire). > > Weird, I'll take good note of it. I conclude by your words he's on the > way to complete the task we referred above of becoming a Megalith. If > my guesses are right all other elementals would have been summoned by > him to aid his cause. Anyway, it would help too much to have a deeper > report about this case. Sounds like it doesn't it? He/it becomes a megalith. Hey, thats an idea. Planets are female megaliths, and suns are male megaliths :) (Not to be taken seriously) Another idea is that the megaliths are one of the original creatures of the multiverse, having slowly gained sentience. They may have created the first immortals (elemental ones of course). Then those immortals made lesser (mortal) creatures, composed of part of each element. This would mean megaliths are the most powerful creatures around, unless the old ones are creations who have outstripped them.Or they are the old ones. Anyway, lots of conjecture. Glenn - -- knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | "You're not out only customer you glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au | know" http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | "But we're one of the few with tactical finger -l for pgp public key | nuclear weapons" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:29:52 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Tomas Sanchez wrote: > Well, I'll be glad to hear whatever argument you've developed to explain > where do your druids gain their spells from. IMC druids gain their power from the planet they live on. When a druids becomes such, he isn't related to immortals anymore. This involve that every planet has some kind of magical energy with which it can "power" the spells of its druids. So I would say that druids who live on a megalith, which is much more powerful than a normal planet, have more magic power. However I have to think of this a bit more... any suggestions? > Diego> The sun of our most loved world, is described in M4: Five Coins > Diego> for a Kingdom (IMO a good adventure, full of interesting > Diego> settings). Its core is formed by a large, hollow sphere, whose > Diego> walls are pure black. Within it, there's a Fire Elemental Ruler > Diego> (a 80 HD, 600 hp creature!) who rules over all the creatures that > Diego> can be found in the sun (which looks like the Elemental Plane of > Diego> Fire). > > Weird, I'll take good note of it. I conclude by your words he's on the > way to complete the task we referred above of becoming a Megalith. If > my guesses are right all other elementals would have been summoned by > him to aid his cause. Anyway, it would help too much to have a deeper > report about this case. In M5, as well as in all the other canon material, there is no referance about elementals becoming megaliths. However in the old immortals rules is introduced the elemaster (an elemental which acquired an exalted status), which is the highest position in the hierarchy of the elementals. However, your idea is very good. In fact the heavenly bodies can be divided in 4 categories on the ground of the element that forms them: - - gaseous (as our Juppiter - an air megalith), - - earth (as Mars or Earth - an earth megalith), - - fire (all the suns - a fire megalith), - - water (I don't know any planet of this kind, but there must be one somewhere! :-). I have also two ideas about elementals who want to become megalith: 1) It is stated in the old immortal rules that elemasters don't want other elementals to acquire an immortal status. For this reason, some elemental rulers (which are aware of their immense power) could try another way to gain even more power and so they could start to evolve into a megalith. 2) As immortals can become old ones loosing immortality and acquiring it once more; maybe elemasters can become megaliths with the same process. Do you like these ideas? > Diego> Could it be possible for the life force of a megalith to leave > Diego> its material body and become a "normal" immortal? > > Interesting idea. Maybe we should ask ourselves if her present body > is or not a mere avatar. At least, you could argue she is in the prime > plane which is clearly not an outer. Anyway, we should have present > that TSR tried to create an alternate Gaia. I didn't mean exactly this. My theory was that in the past Mystara was a megalith (Urt - as stated in the old immortal rules). Soon however the immortals grew more and more interested in the Prime and, of course, they didn't want a megalith to host the cradle of their most important followers in the Prime Material Plane. So they ask her to leave forever her material body (that of a big planet), so that they could cultivate life forms upon and within it. Maybe Urt's life force created another body and became again a megalith or maybe she became somehow a normal immortal. Or maybe the immortals managed to remove her core (creating in this way the big hole which later will have hosted the HW). I like this theory because it makes the old canon fit in the new one, or at least I think so. - -Diego - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:47:29 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Glenn Butcher wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 04:39:11PM -0700, Patrick wrote: > > > Diego> who created the first immortals, who sponsored the others? > > > > > > The Old Ones ? > > > > That's what I think. Of course, the question becomes "Who created the Old > > Ones?" but that can go on forever > > > > Thus we have the question of who created the universe. > IMHO, megaliths are involved in the process that bred the first immortals. In fact the old immortal rules state that the megaliths "were created at the same time as the multiverse"; if I'm not wrong, this means that they were created before immortals (since we know that immortals didn't create the multiverse). For this reason, megaliths were probably the first creatures to acquire an "immortal status" and I would bet that they have something to do with the first immortals. Any theories? > > > Diego> Could it be possible for the life force of a megalith to leave > > > Diego> its material body and become a "normal" immortal? > > > > > > Interesting idea. Maybe we should ask ourselves if her present body > > > is or not a mere avatar. At least, you could argue she is in the prime > > > plane which is clearly not an outer. Anyway, we should have present > > > that TSR tried to create an alternate Gaia. > > > > I think that Urt is much like the idea of Gaia. Perhaps there are priests > out there who preach the idea of the planet as a living thing, and so > it should be left alone. Then one day they get spells? With the word 'Gaia' do you mean the world created by Isaac Asimov? - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:08:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Wassellj@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rising to My Defense Once Again In a message dated 24/07/97 16:17:10, Leroy Van Camp III writes: << I simply have not given enough information for you to come up with the conclusions you have. Some of your statements are in direct conflict with what I have said in previous posts. I hope this is cleared up. >> It does seem that some people are not reading the postings with an objective eye. They are not fully taking in the information before making some spurious statements. But that is always going to be the way when we talk about opinions. Lets leave this topic and move on. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:21:01 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins And of course all my email responses about lupins are all showing up in the wrong order and late it would seem... Harumpf. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:22:20 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins In a message dated 97-07-24 03:03:09 EDT, Daniel write: << Just curious, did you base "Arsane Lupin", the Blue Bandit, on the series of novels or the more recent cartoon? (I couldn't help chuckling when I read the reference.. :) ) >> Yes and no. I based it on an old French TV and novel series (Arsene Lupin, which for some reason my editor decided to spell differently). I didn't know there was a cartoon series -- but I suspect we are talking about the same thing -- the French gentleman thief from the early 1900's. I just couldn't resist working that one into the article. There are a few more of these pleasantries hiding in the article. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:40:57 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Diego Calugi wrote: > - water (I don't know any planet of this kind, but there must be one > somewhere! :-). Pluto is supposed to be a frozen ball of something. Also, aren't Comments "dirty Balls of Ice"? Just two possible alternatives for "Water/Liquid" :-) Jenni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:00:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins > > Yes and no. I based it on an old French TV and novel series (Arsene Lupin, > which for some reason my editor decided to spell differently). I didn't know > there was a cartoon series -- but I suspect we are talking about the same > thing -- the French gentleman thief from the early 1900's. I just couldn't > resist working that one into the article. There are a few more of these > pleasantries hiding in the article. :) This is cool. I read the Chinese translation of that novel series a long time ago and really like it, but couldn't find any of it after I come to America, or even any one heard of him. So, Bruce would you like to share what else you hide in the article, or do you prefer us to find it? Also, when is that issue of Dragon suppose to reach the stores? John Yu > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:57:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > Also, aren't Comments "dirty Balls of Ice"? Actually, comments are remarks one makes that expresses an opinion. Comets, on the other hand... :) Sorry... I couldn't resist (and I needed to try and take my mind off the fact that I work with a bunch of idiots... :( ) Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:59:20 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Glenn> Maybe Matera and Patera are her children? That's the point. Glenn> Sounds like a good idea actually. Glenn> Another idea is that the megaliths are one of the original Glenn> creatures of the multiverse, having slowly gained sentience. Glenn> They may have created the first immortals (elemental ones of Glenn> course). Then those immortals made lesser (mortal) creatures, Glenn> composed of part of each element. Glenn> This would mean megaliths are the most powerful creatures Glenn> around, unless the old ones are creations who have Glenn> outstripped them. Or they are the old ones. Right, they were created at the same time as the multiverse. But first inmortals came from beyond. Anyway, i like your theory. Specially the first paragraph. Maybe, that's the way it's related in the elemental planes. Giving more importance to their own relatives. What do you think about it ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:52:29 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Patrick> You should pick another name, though, for other elements Patrick> than matter: megalith means enormous rock I suppose natives from the respective elemental planes refer to the solid matter they step over as "ground". And you'll agree theirs is a different composed "ground" ( Aplicable to Megaliths ). Anyway, i'll be glad to hear what names were you thinking about to replace it. Patrick> Indeed, not having WotI could drive anyone to murder! Patrick> I advise you to get it ASAP. My players are gonna be really frightened when they read this :) Patrick> IMC, druids may receive spells from any of a number of Patrick> nature-oriented immortals, i.e. Zirchev, Ordana, Terra, Patrick> Djaea, etc. After a deeper research i found two interesting paragraphs at the Alfheim Gazetteer : The Elven Magic section states : After Ilsundal became an inmortal he granted clerical magic to elves. Instead of creating a separate class he expanded upon the native elven magic skills. And the Spells section states : Elves have their own higher magical system which is similar to that of human wizards, but due to their connection with the inmortal Ilsundal and the Trees of Life, partakes quite a bit of druidic magic. So you're right, nature oriented inmortals may provide druidic spells too. Now, everyone can choose whatever argument fits better within their campaigns. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:57:02 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Diego> IMHO, megaliths are involved in the process that bred Diego> the first immortals. In fact the old immortal rules Diego> state that the megaliths "were created at the same time Diego> as the multiverse"; if I'm not wrong, this means that Diego> they were created before immortals (since we know that Diego> immortals didn't create the multiverse). Diego> For this reason, megaliths were probably the first Diego> creatures to acquire an "immortal status" and I would Diego> bet that they have something to do with the first Diego> immortals. Any theories? I wouldn't be so sure. The DM's Guide to Inmortals states in "The Secrets of the Multiverse" section : Coming from a place now lost in the mists of forgotten time and memory, the first Inmortals found the multiverse. As you see the origin of the first inmortals remains unveiled. Who were they ? Where did they came from ? Any ideas ? Diego> With the word 'Gaia' do you mean the world created by Diego> Isaac Asimov? I think i don't. I refer to a strange philosophy whose base believing is that our world is alive. Maybe someone on the list could tell us about this topic a little bit more. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:55:21 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Diego> IMC druids gain their power from the planet they live on. Diego> When a druid becomes such, he isn't related to immortals Diego> anymore. This involves that every planet has some kind of Diego> magical energy with which it can "power" the spells of its Diego> druids. So I would say that druids who live on a megalith, Diego> which is much more powerful than a normal planet, have more Diego> magic power. However I have to think of this a bit more... Diego> any suggestions? I do not fully agree. I think Urt should have a way of recovering from all this power drainage or druids would not be druids anymore but defilers ( oh, no dark sun ! ). Seriously, power points are the easier way to provide our druids with their precious spells. Diego> In fact the heavenly bodies can be divided in 4 categories Diego> on the ground of the element that forms them: Diego> - gaseous (as our Juppiter - an air megalith), Diego> - earth (as Mars or Earth - an earth megalith), Diego> - fire (all the suns - a fire megalith) Diego> - water (I don't know any planet of this kind... You're reading my mind. Diego> I have also two ideas about elementals who want to become Diego> megaliths : Diego> 1) It is stated in the old immortal rules that elemasters don't Diego> want other elementals to acquire an immortal status. For this Diego> reason, some elemental rulers (which are aware of their immense Diego> power) could try another way to gain even more power and so Diego> they could start to evolve into a megalith. Diego> 2) As immortals can become old ones loosing immortality and Diego> acquiring it once more; maybe elemasters can become megaliths Diego> with the same process. Your first guessing seems right. I think elementals that have raised to inmortals status may find all their ambitions satisfied and decide to become a Megalith. Other ones may dare to advance further even knowing the elemaster's policy. Those few ones would remain in their original form not the Megalith's, even if Empyreals. Diego> My theory was that in the past Mystara was a megalith (Urt - Diego> as stated in the old immortal rules). Soon however the Diego> immortals grew more and more interested in the Prime and, Diego> of course, they didn't want a megalith to host the cradle Diego> of their most important followers in the Prime Material Plane. Diego> So they ask her to leave forever her material body (that of a Diego> big planet), so that they could cultivate life forms upon and Diego> within it. Diego> Maybe Urt's life force created another body and became again a Diego> megalith or maybe she became somehow a normal immortal. Or maybe Diego> the immortals managed to remove her core (creating in this way Diego> the big hole which later will have hosted the HW). The DM's Inmortals Guide stats that inmortals made special arragements with Urt before startinng to cultivate life forms upon and within it. I don't think she leaved her material body. Inmortals created Matera ans Patera from her own matter, digging what would be known the Hollow World. They also made some physical and magical changes to it in order to preserve their life and her new neighboors'. Her core reamined floating amidst this new world becoming the eternal sun we went to know. I believe elemental empyreals who choose the Megalith's path have no way back. Theirs is a very special oath that should never be broken. The task of sheltering all this life forms should not be disdained. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:46:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins In a message dated 97-07-24 01:46:55 EDT, you write: << Depending on the lupin *breed*, pretty much anywhere in the Known World, Ochalea, Savage Coast, Norwold, and even... Nithia (sorta). Now how about some further *half-breeds* with ogrish blood, or other demi-human blood, just for kicks? Anyone cares to jump in? :) Bruce Heard >> Hmmm.. you have Hutakaan, Gnollish, Blink Dog and Foo Dog bloodlines... how about *Hellhound* bloodlines... heh, heh, heh... Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:16:41 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt > I wouldn't be so sure. The DM's Guide to Inmortals states > in "The Secrets of the Multiverse" section : Coming from a > place now lost in the mists of forgotten time and memory, the > first Inmortals found the multiverse. As you see the origin > of the first inmortals remains unveiled. Who were they ? > Where did they came from ? Any ideas ? If you just want to go off the gold box, I don't know. But WotI states in the descriptions of several of the oldest immortals (Ixion, Hel, Djaea, Terra...) that they CANNOT remember their early history. IMO, this would imply some sort of massive barrier (something like the spell of oblivion, perhaps) is blocking the ancient history of the multiverse from scrutiny--Perhaps the Old Ones? And where did they come from? From Earth, of course :~) But anyway, the Old Ones may have erected this barrier across time to protect their secrets. > Diego> With the word 'Gaia' do you mean the world created by > Diego> Isaac Asimov? > > I think i don't. I refer to a strange philosophy whose base > believing is that our world is alive. Maybe someone on the list > could tell us about this topic a little bit more. Asimov based his "Gaia" on an ancient concept of unity throughout all nature. I know little about it, but I think theological historians believe that this notion predates any sort of concept of "gods." The word Gaia comes from the ancient Greek word for earth, I think (perhaps someone on the list who knows Greek could help us here?). In English and most Romance languages, "geo" (or something close to that) is a prefix meaning earth, e.g. geology, geography, geode, etc. TSR rather obviously used this as the root for the name Djaea, and the latin root "terra" gave us...Terra! (surprise!) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:02:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > Hmmm.. you have Hutakaan, Gnollish, Blink Dog and Foo Dog bloodlines... how > about *Hellhound* bloodlines... heh, heh, heh... Or Yowler bloodlines (they're canines, aren't they?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:43:57 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re: My name is not Mystara but Urt - - Answer to Patrick - Patrick> WotI states in the descriptions of several of the oldest Patrick> immortals (Ixion, Hel, Djaea, Terra...) that they CANNOT Patrick> remember their early history. IMO, this would imply some Patrick> sort of massive barrier (something like the spell of Patrick> oblivion, perhaps) is blocking the ancient history of the Patrick> multiverse from scrutiny--Perhaps the Old Ones? I agree with you. We must see that the Old Gold Box is related from inmortals' point of wiew. And every reference to the Old Ones is kept in secrecy. I'm sure they believe they came from a place now lost in the mists of forgotten time and memory. But the truth is that the Old Ones created them from nothingness giving them the memories that suited best their interests. So, they forged an appropiate character for each one printing deep within their souls the desire to breed new life forms and manage the multiverse. Patrick> Asimov based his "Gaia" on an ancient concept of unity Patrick> throughout all nature. I know little about it, but I Patrick> think theological historians believe that this notion Patrick> predates any sort of concept of "gods." The word Gaia Patrick> comes from the ancient Greek word for earth, I think Patrick> (perhaps someone on the list who knows Greek could help Patrick> us here?). In English and most Romance languages, "geo" Patrick> (or something close to that) is a prefix meaning earth, Patrick> e.g. geology, geography, geode, etc. I think you're right. Anyway, I make a help call to our readers too in order to illustrate us about this matter. Tomás Sánchez deckard@encomix.es ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:32:42 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Tomas Sanchez wrote: > > Diego> IMC druids gain their power from the planet they live on. > Diego> When a druid becomes such, he isn't related to immortals > Diego> anymore. This involves that every planet has some kind of > Diego> magical energy with which it can "power" the spells of its > Diego> druids. So I would say that druids who live on a megalith, > Diego> which is much more powerful than a normal planet, have more > Diego> magic power. However I have to think of this a bit more... > Diego> any suggestions? > > I do not fully agree. I think Urt should have a way of recovering > from all this power drainage or druids would not be druids anymore > but defilers ( oh, no dark sun ! ). Seriously, power points are the > easier way to provide our druids with their precious spells. Druids IMO don't waste Urt's PPs, they simply transform them in something different: they don't drain the energy of the land, they change its nature. Of course, IMC :-). However, as you said in a foregoing mail, the canon in the Alfheim Gazetteer seems different; still, I prefer to create a stronger connection between the druids and the land. > Diego> My theory was that in the past Mystara was a megalith (Urt - > Diego> as stated in the old immortal rules). Soon however the > Diego> immortals grew more and more interested in the Prime and, > Diego> of course, they didn't want a megalith to host the cradle > Diego> of their most important followers in the Prime Material Plane. > Diego> So they ask her to leave forever her material body (that of a > Diego> big planet), so that they could cultivate life forms upon and > Diego> within it. > Diego> Maybe Urt's life force created another body and became again a > Diego> megalith or maybe she became somehow a normal immortal. Or maybe > Diego> the immortals managed to remove her core (creating in this way > Diego> the big hole which later will have hosted the HW). > > The DM's Inmortals Guide stats that inmortals made special arragements > with Urt before startinng to cultivate life forms upon and within it. > I don't think she leaved her material body. Inmortals created Matera > ans Patera from her own matter, digging what would be known the Hollow > World. They also made some physical and magical changes to it in order > to preserve their life and her new neighboors'. Her core reamined > floating amidst this new world becoming the eternal sun we went to > know. So, if I have understood correctly, you are saying that Urt is still alive. It could be a possibility, but I don't think so. In fact, how would she have reacted to alphatians digging big tunnels in her mantle to reach the HW (at the beginning of WotI) or to immortals using her body as a battlefield? "Ehi, those petty immortals are using my ass as a shooting-range for their little meteors! Cool! There must be a party up there!" :-) > I believe elemental empyreals who choose the Megalith's path have no > way back. Theirs is a very special oath that should never be broken. > The task of sheltering all this life forms should not be disdained. Yes, you are right. And the "path of the megalith" should also require a lot of time to complete (millions of years IMO). - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:52:15 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: My name is not Mystara but Urt Tomas Sanchez wrote: > Patrick> Asimov based his "Gaia" on an ancient concept of unity > Patrick> throughout all nature. I know little about it, but I > Patrick> think theological historians believe that this notion > Patrick> predates any sort of concept of "gods." The word Gaia > Patrick> comes from the ancient Greek word for earth, I think > Patrick> (perhaps someone on the list who knows Greek could help > Patrick> us here?). In English and most Romance languages, "geo" > Patrick> (or something close to that) is a prefix meaning earth, > Patrick> e.g. geology, geography, geode, etc. > > I think you're right. Anyway, I make a help call to our readers > too in order to illustrate us about this matter. I think that the last step of the evolution of a megalith is the completion of this process of unity throughout all nature. The developement of some kind of common consciousness and knowledge, some kind of unity of all the life forces that live on it (minerals, plants and live beings). Those of you who have read Asimov's 'The Edge of Foundation', will know that this could be really an interesting setting for adventures. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:52:04 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Tomas Sanchez wrote: > > Diego> IMHO, megaliths are involved in the process that bred > Diego> the first immortals. In fact the old immortal rules > Diego> state that the megaliths "were created at the same time > Diego> as the multiverse"; if I'm not wrong, this means that > Diego> they were created before immortals (since we know that > Diego> immortals didn't create the multiverse). > Diego> For this reason, megaliths were probably the first > Diego> creatures to acquire an "immortal status" and I would > Diego> bet that they have something to do with the first > Diego> immortals. Any theories? > > I wouldn't be so sure. The DM's Guide to Inmortals states > in "The Secrets of the Multiverse" section : Coming from a > place now lost in the mists of forgotten time and memory, the > first Inmortals found the multiverse. As you see the origin > of the first inmortals remains unveiled. Who were they ? > Where did they came from ? Any ideas ? You are right! I had forgotten those paragraphs (I should read again the immortals rules someday). However try this one: The Old Ones created the multiverse and the immortals, who should have guarded it. Then they thought: "What if those immortals start spending all their time drinking beer?". So they created also the megaliths who could protect the lifes upon and within them if someday for some reason the immortals would have failed in doing so. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:30:05 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupin In a message dated 97-07-25 05:02:40 EDT, John Yu write: << This is cool. I read the Chinese translation of that novel series a long time ago and really like it, but couldn't find any of it after I come to America, or even any one heard of him. So, Bruce would you like to share what else you hide in the article, or do you prefer us to find it? Also, when is that issue of Dragon suppose to reach the stores? >> I had no idea there were Chinese translations. (Neat!) I think I'll wait before revealing more of these little surprises. I'd like people to have a chance to read the article before I start unveiling too many things. This issue of Dragon should be at the stores by now, or if not, it should be very soon (slow truck drivers? slow distributors?) BTW I'm in the process of switching screen names. I am more increasingly using Ambreville@AOL.com now, although the TSR Bruce account will stay active until the end of August. Ambreville is already susbribed to Mystara-L. :) Bruce Heard Still TSR Bruce, but soon to be a free man! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:35:28 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Gazetteer display font? Anybody know what font was used for the headings in the Gazeetteer series? And if it's available as a Type 1 from any of the normal font houses? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:21:44 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins In a message dated 97-07-25 17:16:19 EDT, you write: << Or Yowler bloodlines (they're canines, aren't they?) >> Maybe a little difficult to breed with... Heh... :) Bruce Heard Also Ambreville@AOL.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:11:02 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gazetteer display font? In a message dated 97-07-25 17:01:52 EDT, you write: << Anybody know what font was used for the headings in the Gazeetteer series? And if it's available as a Type 1 from any of the normal font houses? >> That would have been Feinen Bold. Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 1997 18:31:36 -0500 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [Mystara] Re: Gazetteer display font? >>>>> "TSRBruce" == TSRBruce writes: TSRBruce> That would have been Feinen Bold. Thanks! Unfortunately, I've been unable to find it anywhere on the net... if anyone hears tell of a place to buy it, let me know! - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted The only constant is change. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:03:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupin In a message dated 97-07-25 14:38:54 EDT, you write: << BTW I'm in the process of switching screen names. I am more increasingly using Ambreville@AOL.com now, although the TSR Bruce account will stay active until the end of August. Ambreville is already susbribed to Mystara-L. :) Bruce Heard Still TSR Bruce, but soon to be a free man! >> <>??? Does this mean you have left TSR/WotC???? - -Ambyrus@AOL.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:19:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: My name is not Mystara but Urt In a message dated 97-07-25 16:24:06 EDT, scalugi@biuno.dada.it (Diego Calugi) writes: << I think that the last step of the evolution of a megalith is the completion of this process of unity throughout all nature. The developement of some kind of common consciousness and knowledge, some kind of unity of all the life forces that live on it (minerals, plants and live beings). >> That "evolution" could lead to some interesting conflicts, as I imagine many (or even most) intelligent beings would rebel against being forced into that sort of unity. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:51:26 -0400 From: MRJohnson Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupins TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: > >What exactly is a foo-dog? Tabes 5 and 6 mention that some lupins > >have foo-dog bloodlines, but I'm afraid I don't know what a foo-dog is. > > A foo-dog was an AD&D oriental adventures creature, some sort of magical > Chinese dog. Suddenly, I wonder if the foo-dog was a 1st Edition monster. Is > it not available in 2nd Edition AD&D? Have I erred somehow? (a doubt, a > cruel doubt...) It's not in the Monstrous Manual (or, if it is, I can't find it). However, there are so many appendices, it could well be in one of those. Wasn't there an Oriental Adventures appendix, or a Kara Tur appendix, or something like that? Michael Ray Johnson. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:36:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [Mystara] Re: TSR Bruce/Ambreville In messages dated 97-07-26, these questions came up: <> << <>??? Does this mean you have left TSR/WotC???? -Ambyrus@AOL.com >> My last day at TSR will be August 29. Possible arrangements with WotC regarding my move to Seattle were not compatible with my current family situation - thus my departure from TSR. You know -- all best things must come to an end! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:55:09 -0300 From: Victor Caminha Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR Bruce/Ambreville >My last day at TSR will be August 29. Possible arrangements with WotC >regarding my move to Seattle were not compatible with my current family >situation - thus my departure from TSR. You know -- all best things must come >to an end! :) > >Bruce Heard > Thats a pity..:(((( I am sure that not only me,but ALL list will grieve for that...how many times we were enlightened by the (canonic or not) answers by Mr Heard? At least, at the very least, i hope you continue here Bruce.Do not lose contact with Mystara Mailing list....your departure from TSR/WoTC means that the release of our most beloved world will begin a bit less shiny... Best Wishes, Victor Caminha ps: Folks..i know this answer could well be delivered in pvt, but due to Bruce's work in Mystara, i thought a public acknowledgement of his works could be a form of "thank you for all you have done here" . Anyway...sorry fr the incovenient "Receive the bounty of your hero's deed Tainting thy life by the gift of the dead Eternally running from a priestly bead Unable to bear the Orb in your head You'll walk in the darkness so alluring Without Hope to cleanse your sin Away from the joy of the living Forever to serve your Twin" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 21:05:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR Bruce/Ambreville In a message dated 97-07-26 14:42:22 EDT, you write: << Thats a pity..:(((( I am sure that not only me,but ALL list will grieve for that...how many times we were enlightened by the (canonic or not) answers by Mr Heard? At least, at the very least, i hope you continue here Bruce.Do not lose contact with Mystara Mailing list....your departure from TSR/WoTC means that the release of our most beloved world will begin a bit less shiny... >> Thanks. I plan on sticking around the Mystara list. If anything, I might now have more time available to write new stuff, even if it doesn't see print elsewhere than DRAGON Magazine, or through this list! :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 21:45:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: TSR Bruce/Ambreville In a message dated 97-07-26 12:41:00 EDT, you write: << My last day at TSR will be August 29. Possible arrangements with WotC regarding my move to Seattle were not compatible with my current family situation - thus my departure from TSR. You know -- all best things must come to an end! :) >> You'll be missed--I'm sure - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:29:14 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt - - Answer to Diego Calugi (2) - Diego> I think that the last step of the evolution of a megalith Diego> is the completion of this process of unity throughout all Diego> nature. The developement of some kind of common consciousness Diego> and knowledge, some kind of unity of all the life forces that Diego> live on it (minerals, plants and live beings). Those of you Diego> who have read Asimov's 'The Edge of Foundation', will know Diego> that this could be really an interesting setting for adventures. I think it suits with the druids' believings. You've convinced me, i'll buy the book. Tomás Sánchez deckard@encomix.es ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:25:00 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt - - Answer to Diego Calugi (1) - Diego> Druids IMO don't waste Urt's PPs, they simply transform them Diego> into something different: they don't drain the energy of the Diego> land, they change its nature. Of course, IMC :-). Of course, inmortals should have a different way of providing those spells. Anyway, it's not mentioned in the DM's Guide to Inmortals and i haven't bought the Wrath yet. So it's up to you to confirm or refuse my suspicions. Diego> However, as you said in a foregoing mail, the canon in the Diego> Alfheim Gazetteer seems different; still, I prefer to create Diego> a stronger connection between the druids and the land. I have good news for you. Lost in my own thoughts i missed a very important point. Unlike Druids, elf wizards must learn and remember the spells, just like any "normal" magical spell. You'll agree with me it doesn't sounds very priestly. So, i still maintain our theory is the most coherent - from a OD&D point of wiew . Diego> So, if I have understood correctly, you are saying that Urt Diego> is still alive. Right. Diego> It could be a possibility, but I don't think so. In fact, Diego> how would she have reacted to alphatians digging big tunnels Diego> in her mantle to reach the HW (at the beginning of WotI) or Diego> to immortals using her body as a battlefield? I think she'd have ignored the damage if it was minor ( compare the tunnel's volume with the megalith's ) and probably she'd have followed a non intervention policy during the conflict. Maybe, she caused more frequent tremors and volcanic phenomena to advice their neighbours something was going wrong. Tomás Sánchez deckard@encomix.es ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #119 ***************************** From: owner-mystara-digest@ (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.io.com Subject: mystara-digest V2 #120 Reply-To: mystara-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-mystara-digest@ Errors-To: owner-mystara-digest@ Precedence: bulk mystara-digest Thursday, July 31 1997 Volume 02 : Number 120 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:22:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupin Sure enough, again... I finally got a chance to look at my original computer file and compare with the table listing Class Level Limitations for lupins (DRAGON Magazine 237). I found two big errors. #1 Wee Folk: cannot be rangers. The line listing the levels for wee folks, starting with rangers, was printed one column too far to the left. In other words, there should be no number (zero) in the column for Rangers, 15L should go under Wizards, 15 under cleric, 9M under Druids, 13 under Thieves, and 6 under Bards. #2 Mongrels: same mistake. Mongrels should not be paladins -- there should be no number (zero) in the column for Paladin; the "U" should be located in the Rangers column, the 12 under Wizards, the 15 under Clerics, the 13 under Druids, the next 13 under the Thieves, and the 9 under the Bards. Looks like some typographical error. Bruce Heard Also TSR Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:18:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambyrus@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] ((((HELLO))))..... I was just wondering why there have been no posts. It's been like three days now since I have seen a post. Could someone clue me in??? - -Ambyrus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:24:43 -0700 From: Sebastian Quiles Subject: [Mystara] Anachronism Hi there.... I've get the Gaz3 (Glantri) and I must to say something: Bruce.... It's great! but I have a doubt... in the chronology you situate Red Arow Black Shield in 1200 (This is not the first time I saw that) but in the module Thincol, Duque (not king) Stefane Karameikos, Von Hendriks, are mentioned... so where is the mistake? - -- Sebastian Quiles Universidad de Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA mailto:sq7s@dc.uba.ar ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:59:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: [Mystara] Anachronism >Hi there.... I've get the Gaz3 (Glantri) and I must to say something: > >Bruce.... It's great! > >but I have a doubt... in the chronology you situate Red Arow Black >Shield in 1200 (This is not the first time I saw that) but in the module >Thincol, Duque (not king) Stefane Karameikos, Von Hendriks, are >mentioned... so where is the mistake? I'll field this one, Bruce, if you don't mind. :) X10 was published before the Gazeteers were, and was supposedly set sometime around the other modules.. say, somewhere between 970 AC and 1005 AC. (They didn't have anything approaching a consistent chronology yet. :) ) Then came the Gazeteers, and they decided to push back the world- shaking events of the module by 200 years, to give campaigns a little breathing time; but the names in X10 were still from around 1000 AC. The "official" statement was that the ruler of Karameikos in the module is ArchDuke Stefan Karameikos III, with a similar change for the Black Eagle Baron (I don't recall the specific name offhand.) (To make things even more confusing, after the Gazeteers came out, the Wrath of the Immortals box was published - putting X10 in a very awkward position. The current "official" timeline entry reads: 1200 AC: Great War with the Master of the Desert Nomads. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X10, .] ) I hope that cleared things up for you a little, Mr. Quiles. :) PS: To really obfuscate the matter, I could mention that in the original english, it was "Duke Stefan" instead of "Duque Stefane"... but that would be pointless. :) - -- Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca Unofficial Official Keeper of the Unofficial Official Timeline of Mystara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:18:50 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: [Mystara] Dominion & Austria & ((((HELLO))))..... Hi! >I was just wondering why there have been no posts. It's been like three days >now since I have seen a post. Could someone clue me in??? The list is just a little low the last few days! But if you truly received no posts in the last three days, I would blame your provider. I´m just trying to bring enough of my own thoughts and ideas in the dominion-rules to publish them here, but it will take a while as I´m also trying to get my master in math and have got a new computer (you know: trying all the games you couldn´t run the last 2 years!). On the other side you, Bruce (or shall I say Etienne), may be a little less strict about TSR-Copyright now. So if my mail sounds a little bit like your original article, it wil not be such a big problem, I hope. But of course without enough work of my own, I could just mail the issue-numbers of the Dragon for you to read them. BTW: If somebody of the mailing list users happens to come to Austria (you know the little country in Europe, not the one with kangaroos, ..., yes, I know, we do have kangaroos, but only in a zoo or circus, .....), just let me know, maybe we could meet, drink some REAL coffee and talk. *************************************************************************** Peter Balazs (a9003307@unet.univie.ac.at) http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:56:42 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Anachronism There are notes in the chronology in the back of Immortal's Fury suggesting the use of X10 in the 1005-6 timeframe. I played it there IMC and it worked just fine. Incidentally, I found the "world view" from X10 more useful than most of the Gazetteers. My campaign was built on published modules with Immortal's Fury running in the background and popping up when it's adventures occurred. I essentially ignored the Gazetteers for Ylaruam, Ierendi, Shires, Minrothad, Orcs, and Darokin and used about one page worth of material each from Rockhome, Northern Reaches, and Ethengar. X10 provided a better setup for "the Continent", X13 for Vestland. The first PWA (had it been available at the time) would have been a superior replacement for all the Gazetteers mentioned above. > X10 was published before the Gazeteers were, and was supposedly set >sometime around the other modules.. say, somewhere between 970 AC and 1005 >AC. (They didn't have anything approaching a consistent chronology yet. :) >) Then came the Gazeteers, and they decided to push back the world- >shaking events of the module by 200 years, to give campaigns a little >breathing time; but the names in X10 were still from around 1000 AC. The >"official" statement was that the ruler of Karameikos in the module is >ArchDuke Stefan Karameikos III, with a similar change for the Black Eagle >Baron (I don't recall the specific name offhand.) > (To make things even more confusing, after the Gazeteers came out, the >Wrath of the Immortals box was published - putting X10 in a very awkward >position. The current "official" timeline entry reads: 1200 AC: Great War >with the Master of the Desert Nomads. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline >that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X10, Arrow, Black Shield>.] ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:16:30 -0500 From: "Charles E. Dickey, IV" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Timeline for X10 (was Anachronism) > >but I have a doubt... in the chronology you situate Red Arow Black > >Shield in 1200 (This is not the first time I saw that) but in the module > >Thincol, Duque (not king) Stefane Karameikos, Von Hendriks, are > >mentioned... so where is the mistake? > > X10 was published before the Gazeteers were, and was supposedly set > sometime around the other modules.. say, somewhere between 970 AC and 1005 > AC. (They didn't have anything approaching a consistent chronology yet. :) > ) Then came the Gazeteers, and they decided to push back the world- > shaking events of the module by 200 years, to give campaigns a little > breathing time; but the names in X10 were still from around 1000 AC. The > "official" statement was that the ruler of Karameikos in the module is > ArchDuke Stefan Karameikos III, with a similar change for the Black Eagle > Baron (I don't recall the specific name offhand.) > (To make things even more confusing, after the Gazeteers came out, the > Wrath of the Immortals box was published - putting X10 in a very awkward > position. The current "official" timeline entry reads: 1200 AC: Great War > with the Master of the Desert Nomads. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline > that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X10, Arrow, Black Shield>.] ) I thought I had read somewhere in WotI that playing X10 around something like 1007 or something would fit b/c of all the things going on in the world. It also mentioned a time that the events of that module should end. As I do not own the module I am at a disadvantage but I always thought this cleared up what the Gazs had said. I am just as curious as the next person and would love for Bruce to clear all of this up. Chad Dickey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:54:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [Mystara] Anachronism On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Daniel Boese wrote: > >Hi there.... I've get the Gaz3 (Glantri) and I must to say something: > > > >Bruce.... It's great! > > > >but I have a doubt... in the chronology you situate Red Arow Black > >Shield in 1200 (This is not the first time I saw that) but in the module > >Thincol, Duque (not king) Stefane Karameikos, Von Hendriks, are > >mentioned... so where is the mistake? > > I'll field this one, Bruce, if you don't mind. :) > X10 was published before the Gazeteers were, and was supposedly set > sometime around the other modules.. say, somewhere between 970 AC and 1005 > AC. (They didn't have anything approaching a consistent chronology yet. :) > ) Then came the Gazeteers, and they decided to push back the world- > shaking events of the module by 200 years, to give campaigns a little > breathing time; but the names in X10 were still from around 1000 AC. The > "official" statement was that the ruler of Karameikos in the module is > ArchDuke Stefan Karameikos III, with a similar change for the Black Eagle > Baron (I don't recall the specific name offhand.) > (To make things even more confusing, after the Gazeteers came out, the > Wrath of the Immortals box was published - putting X10 in a very awkward > position. The current "official" timeline entry reads: 1200 AC: Great War > with the Master of the Desert Nomads. [NOTE: This is a variant timeline > that is now unlikely to take place. See adventure D&D module X10, Arrow, Black Shield>.] ) Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an updated timeline in Champions of Mystara that puts all of the "Desert Nomad" events in synch with the events of the Almanacs and sets the scene for WotI? I've just been going through this material for my own campaign and that seems to be the case. There is an intro in "Champions" that includes timeline adjustment info for X4, X5, X10 and "Quagmire!" (X8?). I can't recall the exact years and I may be mixing up my facts, but that seemed to be what was going on. ray ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:58:13 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re : My name is not Mystara but Urt Tomas Sanchez wrote: > Diego> So, if I have understood correctly, you are saying that Urt > Diego> is still alive. > > Right. > > Diego> It could be a possibility, but I don't think so. In fact, > Diego> how would she have reacted to alphatians digging big tunnels > Diego> in her mantle to reach the HW (at the beginning of WotI) or > Diego> to immortals using her body as a battlefield? > > I think she'd have ignored the damage if it was minor ( compare > the tunnel's volume with the megalith's ) and probably she'd have > followed a non intervention policy during the conflict. Maybe, she > caused more frequent tremors and volcanic phenomena to advice their > neighbours something was going wrong. > Well, now it's just a matter of opinions. I still prefer Mystara aa a "normal world" instead of a megalith and probably I won't be able to persuade you :). - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:18:19 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: My name is not Mystara but Urt Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-07-25 16:24:06 EDT, scalugi@biuno.dada.it (Diego > Calugi) writes: > > << I think that the last step of the evolution of a megalith is the > completion of this process of unity throughout all nature. The > developement of some kind of common consciousness and knowledge, > some kind of unity of all the life forces that live on it (minerals, plants > and live beings). >> > > That "evolution" could lead to some interesting conflicts, as I imagine many > (or even most) intelligent beings would rebel against being forced into that > sort of unity. Good point. However, IMO, the process will be accomplished in many years, so that every internal conflict might be avoided. The prcess will be subdivided in various steps: 1) The megalith begins to grant druidic powers. 2) The druids become very important because of their powers and their number. They introduce a new religion, which has only one god: the megalith itself. 3) Slowly the world is united under an oligarchy formed by druids (druidarchy?) and ruled in the name of the megalith. 4) People are thought the importance of nature. 5) Life becomes more and more wild, but peace reigns over the land. 6) The products of the land are shared fairly among all the inhabitants of the megalith. With the help of the druids the crops grow healty. Famines and plagues are nothing more than a bad memory. 7) The druids are "united" with the megaliths. People facing this event become aware of its advantages. 8) Slowly everybody wants to be a part of this better lifeform and choose spontaneously to join the druids and the megalith. 9) Those who reject are cut off from the sharing of products and the druids don't help them anymore. They become isolated and disconcerted by a world that seems to avoid them. Sooner or later they join the "mental unity" or they continue to spend a lonely life in the wood, not willing to fight a battle against a whole world. In this project the megalith seems to be cruel against its inhabitants; it looks like it is using them to accomplish its goals. That's not true! The megalith is deeply persuaded by the lawfulness of this action. It is aware that a mental unity between itself, the sentient beings and the inanimate nature is the best choice for everyone and the key to a better life. But what does this "mental unity" involves? This is *very* diffucult to explain. These are the main features I have come up with: 1) The needs of the single individual (or object or plant) is less important than the needs of the community. So if the deaths of 100 people could save the comunity, those 100 souls would be willing to sacrifice their lifes for the cause. 2) Personal goals are less important then common goals, but are still important. If a person is happy, all the community is happy for him and gets pleasure from it as much as the individual does. 3) There is no more a concept of individuality. Every person isn't himself anymore, but it is a part of the community. Every person, every plant or object is part of the community and it act accordingly. 4) Every member of this unity is a part of it on the ground of his possibilities. This means that a person is "more" part of the community than a plant, which is "more" part of it than a rock, and so on. 5) Every member of the unity is consious of everything that happens to the other members. The members' life forces are in fact all tied together and work as one. For this reason the intelligence and wisdom of every individual is as high as possible. Besides this, every member has access to all the memory of the community. 6) And so on. Again, you should read Asimov's books to understand how does it work. Any questions or comments? I'd love to discuss this topic... - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:01:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: My name is not Mystara but Urt In a message dated 97-07-29 20:55:34 EDT, scalugi@biuno.dada.it (Diego Calugi) writes: << In this project the megalith seems to be cruel against its inhabitants; it looks like it is using them to accomplish its goals. That's not true! The megalith is deeply persuaded by the lawfulness of this action. It is aware that a mental unity between itself, the sentient beings and the inanimate nature is the best choice for everyone and the key to a better life. >> "The megalith is deeply persuaded by the lawfulness of this action"???? I thought that the megalith and its druidic followers were neutral, not lawful. And yes, I have read Asimov's "Foundation" novels and am very familiar with the Gaia concept. I just see nothing in the description of Mystarans in the 11th century AC to suggest that they are anywhere near ready for such a concept. We in the real world aren't, and I suspect that the people of Mystara have a ways to go before they can achieve as much unity as the real world has, let alone the unity of Gaia. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:19:28 -0230 (NDT) From: Mark McDonald Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: My name is not Mystara but Urt The concept of a single, world-encompassing sentience is certainly an interesting idea and would make a potentially interesting adventure module if executed correctly, perhaps taking place in an alternate reality or future. However, unless you REALLY think about this "Gaia" effect in advance or read Asimov's "Foundation's Edge" and "Foundation and Earth" to cover the basics, you're better off staying away from this altogether. Still, its interesting to contemplate the possible future of Immortal planet-size lifeforms... :) Mark McDonald mmcdonld@kelvin.physics.mun.ca MUN ext. 8844 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:50:11 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: My name is not Mystara but Urt Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-07-29 20:55:34 EDT, scalugi@biuno.dada.it (Diego > Calugi) writes: > > << In this project the megalith seems to be cruel against its inhabitants; > it looks like it is using them to accomplish its goals. That's not true! > The megalith is deeply persuaded by the lawfulness of this action. It is > aware that a mental unity between itself, the sentient beings and the > inanimate nature is the best choice for everyone and the key to a better > life. >> > > "The megalith is deeply persuaded by the lawfulness of this action"???? > > I thought that the megalith and its druidic followers were neutral, not > lawful. > I have to admit that I wasn't very clear on this point. I was trying to say that the megalith is persuaded that the unity is the best thing for everyone. He seems to manipulate the life forms who live upon him to accomplish its goals, but it is not evil: it is just acting to a good purpose in the name of the common good. IMHO this reflects a neutral personality. BTW with 'lawfulness of this action' I meant 'legitimacy of this action'. I was not refering to the moral alignment. Sometimes I wish I could speak english a little better :( > And yes, I have read Asimov's "Foundation" novels and am very familiar with > the Gaia concept. I just see nothing in the description of Mystarans in the > 11th century AC to suggest that they are anywhere near ready for such a > concept. We in the real world aren't, and I suspect that the people of > Mystara > have a ways to go before they can achieve as much unity as the real world > has, > let alone the unity of Gaia. Of course, not! As I have written in many foregoing mails, I don't think Urt still exist at the same time of the Gazs but, if Mystara is indeed a megalith (as Tomas suggested), it is surely *far away* from a mental unity with its inhabitants. When I was writing about this mental unity, I was refering to some far away megalith in some lost outer plane of existance. In fact IMHO one of the most important condition required in order to achive this mental unity is the complete isolation from the mutiverse. If for example Immortals or some very powerful life form (an emperor, for example) manage to bias the public opinion about this mental unity, all the project is corrupted. The evolution process I have dveloped is nothing more than a possible scenario for an outer plane. - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:03:40 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats Matthew said: >> when D&D was designed way back when, the 3d6 method was chosen over, >for >> instance, a single d20, as an appropriate method for stats PRECISELY >> BECAUSE IT CREATES A BELL CURVE WHERE THERE ARE A VERY FEW CHARACTERS >> WITH HIGH STATS, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE ONES, AND A FEW WITH LOW STATS ... >on >> the traditional method, an 18 stat occurs for a given ability on one >in >> 216 characters ... not impossible but pretty rare. I think the actual chance to roll an 18 is 1 in 36, which means out of every 6 characters (6 PCs X 6 scores = 36) there should be one 18, so I'm afraid your 1 in 216 is a slight exaggeration. Also, in regard to someone's analogy with 18 Int being Einstein or Leonardo da Vinci or such, I think that there is a difference between what we perceive as genius and the ability to really apply that genius. I'm sure there are lots of people who have the potential to be as brilliant in some way as all of those famous "geniuses", but under normal circumstances it will never have a chance to show itself, either from lack of opportunity or lack of motivation. The point is, 18 intelligence is only going to make someone "special" if they try to use it - which can be hard, playing someone who is a lot more intelligent than yourself. In other words, it will mostly only affect the stats. Physical stats are another matter, because they don't have a great deal of application for role-playing. Yes, they make a difference to how you think and do things, but not as much as the other stats. This is one reason why people like "super" characters, and why they are usually super in Str, Dex and Con - because these stats affect standard "physical" game actions, ie fighting, dying (or not dying), dodging, etc. So if you think about it, players who are used to role-playing mainly in cerebral ways will probably want to have high physical stats since they make little difference to the run of the game beyond game mechancics. I'm going to stop now because one thought is leading to a new one and soon I'll have argued full circle back to the beginning. ;-) On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > This is all well and good, if this is what you are looking for. >Personally, I prefer that my players have characters they enjoy over >enforcing some mathematical equation. As long as they don't get >carried away, and are happy with their character, I just don't see >the problem. I agree. The problem comes with players who know about my little argument above (a few of mine do) and refuse to play without these "insurances" against random death. Some players require a degree of randomness in their character, or they get carried away (as I know you agree with from your other comments). But yes, player satisfaction should always be top of the agenda, as long as it doesn't ruin the game. > I do not like random stat rolls in games (with a few exceptions). >When I get ready to play a game, I put a lot of thought into coming >up with a character concept, including personality and history. So, >if after I put all that thought and work into a character concept, and >the dice don't cooperate, I am going to be unhappy. > Since I have started to let my players choose their own stats I >have seen a general increase in the creativity of characters. I sympathise, but some players (the majority of mine) simply don't do this. I have problems with players making up characters anyway, as I've mentioned before, especially when it comes to motivation and background, ambitions and desires, etc. Rolling the dice doesn't usually play a big part, I have to admit, but if I was to allow them to choose, the results would almost certainly include no (or very few) scores below 16. This can be annoying for skills and for ability checks, where it is plain that the character will very very rarely fail. > No, I guess I don't "dig." Though a 3 might be playable in >terms of the penalties it hands out, in terms of in game "reality" >and roleplaying, I find a 3 pretty much unplayable. The idea of >playing an AD&D character who is, for example, barely strong >enough to carry his own body masss, or barely intelligent enough >to string coherent sentences together just doesn't appeal to me. John Mangrum's little note on this gives a fun and useable way of playing an Int 3 character, but I think it only works if you set out to play such a character - rolling a 3 with another idea in mind probably will not work, ending in player dissatisfaction. > I think "every" is an overstatement. Since I have started letting >my players pick their own stats I have seen a variety of occasions >where a character had surprisingly pitiful stats, simply because the >player had a certain vision in mind. In Matthew's defence, if I let my players choose stats there would be at least two 18s, probably three each. My current method of 84 points has the additional limit of only one 18, two if the player has a very good reason. Please remember here my view of 18s outlined above. > Sorry, but I think you are giving stats a bit too much emphasis >here. I have played in games where one or more characters rolled >_amazing_ stats. (I once, as a GM, watched one of my players roll two >18's, a 17 and a 16 right in front of me, with my own dice!) And in >none of these was the character "godlike". And, as the characters >advanced through levels, the bonuses from stats began to make less >and less of a difference. My brother's MERP character has no less than THREE 100s (00 on a d100), ALL of which he rolled in front of me with no cheating, two consecutively. The funny thing is that before that he had rarely if ever rolled a 00, so we think it must have been payback. ;-) Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:01:52 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" wrote: >On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > >> Also, close-relation marriage was pretty much the only way to get married >> among the nobility in Europe till this century. Remember the great Hapsburg >> Empire (and the interesting Hapsburg genetic permutations)? > >You mean Queen V's hemophilia? Or something else? Haven't you seen "The Madness of King George"? :-) Madness as well as haemophilia, yes. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:59:08 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Horrible class (in my opinion) On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: >Weren't Prince Charles and Princess Diana sixth cousins or something? Probably. (I'm not a royalist so I'm not sure.) >Also, close-relation marriage was pretty much the only way to get married >among the nobility in Europe till this century. Remember the great Hapsburg >Empire (and the interesting Hapsburg genetic permutations)? Yep, very true. Which is why jokes about the inbreeding of the monarchy are pretty common over here in Britain. Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:55:19 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Gazetteer display font? On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 TSRBruce@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-25 17:01:52 EDT, you write: > ><< Anybody know what font was used for the headings in the > Gazeetteer series? And if it's available as a Type 1 from any of the normal > font houses? >> > >That would have been Feinen Bold. Thanks for letting us know, Bruce. While we're at it, do you happen to know the Gazetteer standard type font, or for that matter the old (two line) or new (wax seal) Dungeons & Dragons logos? I'm guessing the standard typeface is Palatino, but the others have got me stumped. Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:43:54 +0100 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [Mystara] Anachronism On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 Ray Brooks wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an updated timeline in Champions >of Mystara that puts all of the "Desert Nomad" events in synch with the >events of the Almanacs and sets the scene for WotI? I've just been going >through this material for my own campaign and that seems to be the case. >There is an intro in "Champions" that includes timeline adjustment info >for X4, X5, X10 and "Quagmire!" (X8?). I can't recall the exact years >and I may be mixing up my facts, but that seemed to be what was going on. I haven't seen this, but if it is there it would help greatly for my timeline project. If anyone can find this, please supply the page references. Thank you kindly, Thorf. ===================================================================== "He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the House of Finwe, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair." - "Of Beren and Luthien", The Silmarillion Thorfinn Tait. Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:28:06 -0500 From: David Leland Subject: Re: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats -Reply >>> Thorfinn Tait 07/30/97 12:03pm >>> I think the actual chance to roll an 18 is 1 in 36, which means out of every 6 characters (6 PCs X 6 scores = 36) there should be one 18, so I'm afraid your 1 in 216 is a slight exaggeration. The chance of rolling an 18 is the chance of rolling three sixes in a row, which is 1/6 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/216. 1 in 36 is the chance of rolling 12 on 2d6, or of one of the attributes being 18 (1/216 * 6). So 18's are supposed to be quite rare, less than a half of a percent of all attributes and less than 3% of characters will have an 18 for any score. In a group of 6 PCs (6 scores each), there is a 1/6 chance that there will be an 18 on any sheet for any attribute. - --Azure ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:37:53 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [Mystara] Rolling For Stats >I think the actual chance to roll an 18 is 1 in 36, which means out of >every 6 characters (6 PCs X 6 scores = 36) there should be one 18, so >I'm afraid your 1 in 216 is a slight exaggeration. The chance of rolling an 18 for any one stat using the 3d6 method is 1 in 216. The chance of getting a not-18 is 215 in 216. A character rolls for 6 stats. The chance of having at least one 18 is one minus the chance of rolling 6 not-18s or 1 - ((215/216)**6) = .0275. One out of 36 (1/.0275) characters is expected to have at least one 18 stat. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:29:11 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [Mystara] Anachronism On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Thorfinn Tait wrote: > I haven't seen this, but if it is there it would help greatly for my > timeline project. If anyone can find this, please supply the page > references. It's on the very first page of the Sind/Graakhalia/Yavdlom/Ulimwengu supplement (can't recall the name of that particular book offhand). Right in the intro section. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:50:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupin TSRBruce@aol.com pontificated: > > I had no idea there were Chinese translations. (Neat!) He (Lupin) is actually quite popular in Taiwan. I read about him before Sherlock Holmes, and always thought Lupin was much cooler :) > BTW I'm in the process of switching screen names. I am more increasingly > using Ambreville@AOL.com now, although the TSR Bruce account will stay active > until the end of August. Ambreville is already susbribed to Mystara-L. :) We have an immortal among us! > Bruce Heard > Still TSR Bruce, but soon to be a free man! Sorry to hear the plan didn't work out. We lost an inside man in TSR. Do you have any plan on what to do next? John Yu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:46:25 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: My name is not Mystara but Urt Mark McDonald wrote: > > The concept of a single, world-encompassing sentience is certainly an > interesting idea and would make a potentially interesting adventure > module if executed correctly, perhaps taking place in an alternate > reality or future. However, unless you REALLY think about this "Gaia" > effect in advance or read Asimov's "Foundation's Edge" and "Foundation > and Earth" to cover the basics, you're better off staying away from this > altogether. Still, its interesting to contemplate the possible future of > Immortal planet-size lifeforms... :) > That's what I'm trying to do. I want to write the plot and the basic facts for an high-level adventure about megalith. The main feature of the module is a bitter quarrel which arose between immortals after the discovery of megalith in an outer plane who had reached a mental unity with its inhabitants. IMO this idea is quite good, but I haven't planned very well yet how the various sphere of power will react to this new world. This is what I've written so far; I'd love to hear your ideas... THOUGHT: They want to study the phenomenon to acquire as much information as possible. MATTER: The mental unity between life forms and objects cause a loss of control on matter. This means that Gaia must be destroyed before it becomes too big a problem. ENERGY: They are interested in the potentialities of a life force formed by millions of smaller life forces. TIME: This mental unity could lead to a total lack of change: the loss of personal ambitions and motivations will lead to an inevitable steadiness of ideas which will come to an everlasting stability. ENTROPY: They are interested in a world which thinks as an unique brain: what would happen if that brain is an evil one??? OLD ONES: They could be interested in Gaia as a way of preserving lifes in the multiverse. GAIA: It's intrested in spreading its mental control... Gaia loves the idea of a "multiverse-wide" mental unity! - -Diego ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:24:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Lupin In a message dated 97-07-31 12:20:05 EDT, you write: << Do you have any plan on what to do next? >> Several things -- but it's a little premature to talk about them at this point. Thanks for asking though. :) Bruce Heard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:08:14 +0200 From: Diego Calugi Subject: Re: [Mystara] Anachronism Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 Ray Brooks wrote: > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an updated timeline in Champions > >of Mystara that puts all of the "Desert Nomad" events in synch with the > >events of the Almanacs and sets the scene for WotI? I've just been going > >through this material for my own campaign and that seems to be the case. > >There is an intro in "Champions" that includes timeline adjustment info > >for X4, X5, X10 and "Quagmire!" (X8?). I can't recall the exact years > >and I may be mixing up my facts, but that seemed to be what was going on. > > I haven't seen this, but if it is there it would help greatly for my > timeline project. If anyone can find this, please supply the page > references. Here you are, Thorfinn: "Explorer's Manual", Introduction, pag. 2: X4: MASTER OF THE DESERT NOMADS should begin in the spring of 1005 AC, when the armies of the Master of Hule first overrun the Great Waste and the Kingdom of Sind. X5: TEMPLE OF DEATH follows. X10: RED ARROW, BLACK SHIELD should take place in the fall or winter of 1005 AC and would probably and sometime around the spring or summero of 1006 AC. If you wish to play X6: QUAGMIRE! in its entirity, you should set the adventure in 425 BC, while the People of Yav were exiled to the Immortals' Arm. [...] All encounters with people from the Kingdom of Ierendi should be changed to refer instead to traders from Nithian colonies on the eastern islands - - the Kingdom of Ierendi will not exist there until 602 AC. I hope this helps you! BTW I'd love to see you timeline project posted... - -Diego ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V2 #120 *****************************