mystara-digest Sunday, December 28 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The MML is Dead! Long live the MML! [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:11:46 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth On Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:47:38 EST Alex295 writes: >Sometime long ago, one of the List Members proposed a contest concerning >undersea races. That would be me. [snip] >During the Golden Age of the Traldar, the creature awoke. It ran its >gambit of distruction during the migration of the Traldar under King Milen. >Enraged that the Milenians hadn't paid him proper homage, Protius allowed the >creature to wreak havoc among the escaping Traldar. >These attacks were finally halted by the intervention of other >Immortals. They "pursuaded" Protius to return the beast to its state of >slumber. Enforcing the Immortal decree was the Immortal Noland (Immortal of my >own creation). If Protius couldn't or wouldn't place the creature into a >slumber, then the Enforcer was to slay the creature. This is really an interesting idea. The Big Fish and the behemoth... Good idea! [snip] "Ooops." -PC after damaging the Doomsday device *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:02:27 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The MML is Dead! Long live the MML! >For the hell of it, here is the new FAQ... >--- INTRODUCTION --- >Mystara is one TSR's fantasy game settings for use with=20 it's xD&D games, and the Mystara Mailing List is for=20 discussing this setting. In addition, the list is also a=20 place for discussing the Original Dungeons and Dragons game.=20 I have to say I am quite pleased with the final sentence of the = introduction. Does this mean that we can discuss any homebrew campaign as long as its Classic/Original D&D? With this in place there is definately no reason for me to try and create= a OD&D mailing list... unless the maintainer has a limit to what can be = discussed? Looking forward to your reply. Keep up the good work. - - Chris *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:06:16 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan I'm still having trouble. Is everyone saying an elven baby can be thirty years old and still a toodler? Or do they mature the same rate as humans with an extended lifespan? - -- Galwylin Email: galwylin@airnet.net Home Page: http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Enter the Mystara Netlogo Contest! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:32:50 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan In a message dated 97-12-28 20:22:13 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >I'm still having trouble. Is everyone saying an elven baby can be >thirty years old and still a toodler? Or do they mature the same rate as humans with an extended lifespan? I would imagine that their early childhood is about the same length as that of humans -- but that they take a lot longer to reach sexual maturity. So a five year old elf would not be very different from a five year old human, but after that the aging of an elf would slow down drastically compared to a human. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, December 30 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Day of Dread Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Elven Lifespan [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Gobloniod Names Re: [MYSTARA] - Day of Dread Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Operation Hydra? Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Operation Hydra? [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Elven Lifespan [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 07:05:57 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Day of Dread Well another Day of Dread passes and I thought I'd share a few mishaps that happened around here. Seems like we forgot to make sure the black puddings were safely locked in non-magic containers. Just when the cook was making her special marble cake... oh well, relatives always stay too long anyway. And poor Uncle Tabius.. after achieving lich status only one week ago he's now a pile of dust and rags someone's taken the Hoover to. I don't think Sir Drakar, who was secretly a werewolf, will ever get over the sexual assualt of the doberman down the street. Perhaps the worst that happen was the timeshift spell we finally found strong enough to make the AD&D Mystara box sets useable and sucessful! Now if Asiv the Mage hadn't tried licking the marble cake bowl.... - -- Galwylin Email: galwylin@airnet.net Home Page: http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Enter the Mystara Netlogo Contest! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:39:08 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth In a message dated 97-12-28 00:32:46 EST, you write: << >Sometime long ago, one of the List Members proposed a contest cconcerning >undersea races. That would be me. >> Sorry about the delay. <> Thanks, but I cannot take all of the credit. The connection between the two was there in Mystara publications. The means for tying the two together were the main obstacles. It's a bit rough, but the foundation is there. Sorry about the Noland references. For the record he is a pre-tech Blackmoor in origin. He is one of the old Immortals. He acts as a sort of Enforcer or Sergeant of Arms for the Immortal Council. IMC he is often called upon to enforce Immortal Law or execute punishment. For the most part, his talents have been used mostly on new Initiates that cannot conform to Immortal Law. There have been several occasions where he has gone up against higher ranking Immortals. One of which involved the imprisonment of one that will remain nameless to the Void. Which, IMC, is the DemiPlane of Dread aka Ravenloft. Perhaps if time allows, I'll get around to posting his info on the List. Might even toss in his ally, Nemesis. For now, I'll place it upon the things to do list. It might take a while cause I have a Half Elf Class, Adventures in Alphatia, a RL adventure for a friend, revamping the Divergans, revamping the various averial Clans within the Havens of Diverga, working on a vampiric avariel, and of course the ongoing posting of Operations Hydra. I also have gotten my hands upon some software to convert those BMPs to either GIF or JPG. Now all I have to do is finish transfering them from paper to computer. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:49:36 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Elven Lifespan On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Galwylin wrote: >I'm still having trouble. Is everyone saying an elven baby can be thirty years old and still a toodler? Or do they mature the same rat= e >as humans with an extended lifespan? >Home Page: http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ In spite of Fabrizio's excellent posting on this matter earlier(Thanks Brizio) I'm still in favour of the latter. Even though Shadow Elves can= not complete initiate training before they reach 120 years, that doesnt mea= n that they arent considered adult before that time. Perhaps they mature as fast as humans but are considered addolecent til= l they have lived at least a century. My opinion, anyway. H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:51:46 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Gobloniod Names Anyone know a good Traldaran name for the categories Goblonoid or Humanoid? Anyone here who knows any eastern European languages? Thanks H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:30:41 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Day of Dread On Mon, 29 Dec 1997, Galwylin wrote: >I don't think Sir Drakar, who was secretly a werewolf, will ever get over the sexual assualt of the doberman down the street. Ouch! :) H=E5vard. Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:23:49 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan << I'm still having trouble. Is everyone saying an elven baby can be thirty years old and still a toodler? Or do they mature the same rate as humans with an extended lifespan? >> Since Elves hit adolesence soon after a century of age, i do have them mature and grow at far slower rates then humans in my campaigns. To me, they seem to be more of a majestic race that has no real necessity to mature/reproduce/grow in short spans of time. Orcs adolesence is even earlier than humans. Due to their lack of intelligence they must grow quickly to be able to defend themselves and to reproduce. The Elves have no such need due to thier community which allows protection for and from all. Due to thier adaption to enviornment and magical capabilities, it is rare for a child to die before adolesence. That's at least my explanation for it. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:32:33 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Operation Hydra? >I have a Half Elf Class, Adventures in Alphatia, a RL adventure for a= friend, >revamping the Divergans, revamping the various averial Clans within t= he Havens >of Diverga, working on a vampiric avariel, and of course the ongoing = posting >of Operations Hydra. I also have gotten my hands upon some software t= o convert >those BMPs to either GIF or JPG. Now all I have to do is finish trans= fering >them from paper to computer. Is Opreation Hydra available on Web? H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:04:30 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Operation Hydra? At 18.32 29/12/97 +0100, H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >Is Opreation Hydra available on Web? Check DM's site. He probably has it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 1997 20:34:22 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - Can you send me information about the rules of the cities in the Known World? , like Specularum. Also I want to know more about the Poor Wizard's Almanac (or something like that) and the Northern Realms. What kind of monsters can I find in the Monster Compendium? Thanks, Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:30:00 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Elven Lifespan At 17.49 29/12/97 +0100, H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >In spite of Fabrizio's excellent posting on this matter earlier(Thanks Brizio) I'm still in favour of the latter. Even though Shadow Elves cannot complete initiate training before they reach 120 years, that doesnt mean that they arent considered adult before that time. >Perhaps they mature as fast as humans but are considered addolecent till they have lived at least a century. After further research I've found more canon stuff on this matter. GAZ 5, page 11: "Growing Up Elven" "Elves live naturally to between 600 and 800 years old". A very few have reached 1000 years old; and more have died of disease or violent deaths before their 600th birthday. Elves take about 20 years to grow to full size, then have a free-spirited 'adolescence' of about 80 years. During this time, an elf chooses one of three paths to walk in his or her future life." Same page: "Infant elves (between birth and when they are weaned at abouth three years of age) are rare at any given time. There might be four in a clan of 1000."= =20 - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - --------------=20 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 1997 09:06:34 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - Known World I'd like to know more about the Known World. Jonahan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:58:50 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan In a message dated 97-12-29 15:58:48 EST, you write: << Orcs adolesence is even earlier than humans. Due to their lack of intelligence they must grow quickly to be able to defend themselves and to reproduce. The Elves have no such need due to thier community which allows protection for and from all. Due to thier adaption to enviornment and magical capabilities, it is rare for a child to die before adolesence. That's at least my explanation for it. >> Orcs are not necessarily stupid. In AD&D stats, they are of Average intelligence (8-9). Looked for a D&D equivilent but found none. I think this has been discussed before; intelligence of humanoids. I do agree that Orcs probably wouldn't be as smart as the average human. But in "smart" I mean literate. They surely don't dwell on "civilized" subjects such as reading, writing, farming, and craftmanship. But then again, the literacy rate of the Mystaran nations have never been documented AFAIK. The one thing orcs, as well as all humanoids, are adept at is survival. How long do you suspect a human community could last in the BrokenLands? IMO not too long. And despite how many times the humanoid villians are challenged they always pop up later on to wreak further havoc. They should be used for more than simple "Fighter Fodder". I have often seen humanoids used badly in a Game. It is truly a shame. Stupid, no. Primal more likely. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, December 31 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia(LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan [MYSTARA] - Netlogo Contest is now officially... held over [MYSTARA] - Mystara PBeM Opening Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:49:01 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World >I'd like to know more about the Known World. (Information comes from a wide array of sources. The Dawn of the Emporers boxed set and the Gazzetteer series are the best sources I think) Oo boy! That's a doozy. Well, the Known World is the world of Mystara, that is the outside face of the planet. The interior of the planet is the Hollow World, a separate entity. The Known World consits of 3 major continents I believe..a large,fairly primitive southern one, an eastern one of empires long past their glory day and the main northwestern one (kind of an American-centric view of the world,hmm?) (This is the general feel I get from reading the info). Anywho, most of the writings about the KW thus focus on the NW continent. Here is where the major civilizations exist. Thyatis,Norworld,Rockhome,Karameikos and several others. These are described in module X1 briefly, in more detail in individial GAZes generally. GAZes were a 14-book (?) series detailing each culture. Thyatis and Alphatia (an island in the north) are the main forces in the KW before the War of the Immortals (which I don't have..I focus on the period before it). Thyatis is a Roman-style culture..they assimilate those around them, are fairly corrupt, are very militaristic, fairly educated and of course believe in colonization. Alphatia is a more..well..snobbish society. Only mages are really treated with respect and everyone else is dirt, even if related to the royalty. Drug use is common and magical skill is the by all and end all. They treat non-Alphatians as lesser forms of life. Both groups are heavily involved in plotting against one another and trying to grab land to further themselves. The main colonies are: Ochalea - an Asian-style island near Thyatis and ruled by Thyatis. Conformity is the norm. Pearl Islands - islands inhabited by dark-skinned people ruled by Thyatis. High emphasis is put on developing skills to a high degree. Achievement and success are to be strived for. Isle of Dawn - a land ripped apart by Thyatian-Alphatian conflict. Each has territory here and this is where their battles are fought. Quite a chaotic mess. Hinterlanders - primitive Germanic(?)Celtic(?) peoples with a generally nature-oriented clergy. Currently being conquered by Thyatis. Jen - the Jennites are a people being persecuted,enslaved and destroyed by the brutal Alphatians. They are also rather primitive people..horsemen I think Norworld - a recently free former Alphation colony (in my timeline, post the modules CM1 and M2 and before WOTI). Ruled by a strong,independent former Alphation noble named Ericall and his lovely wizardess wife Christina. Adventurers are a common profession here unlike in many of the civilized lands and powerful monsters still reside everywhere. Qeodhar - Island ruled by the Alphations from afar, but whose reckless and stubborn leader Baron Norlan wishes independence (and the hand in marriage of one of the Alphatian princesses who is devoted to him) Now, for the rest of the NW continent:(Most of these have 1 GAZ written about them) Rockhome- the land of the dwarves and therefore the pinnacle of all that is right in the world Alfheim - home of the wussy elven types Karameikos - territory recently free of Thyatis. Similar to Norworld in many ways, though smaller and more civilized. Glantri - an area ruled by several princes and princesses. Magic is in high regard here even more than in Alphatia, but the country is smaller and less influential. Lots of squabbling between various factions here. Atraughin - Ameridian style culture I believe Thar - Orcish and other non-human stronghold Ostland,Vestland,Soderfjord- Nordic peoples off to the eastern coast, north of Thyatis. One is run by pirates, one by local powers, one by a monarchy I believe Ethengar,Heldann -as far as I can tell these are primitive peoples near Thar. Ethengarians are clan-oriented and in-fighting and are modeled after the horsemen of the Asian Steppes. Heldann is more similar to medieval Iceland. Shadow Elves - Even more of a scumbag type than the normal elves, they hate Alfheim with a passion and seek to overthrow it. Shires - halfling territories run by 5 local heads. Their main occupations consist of holding back orcish invations and acting like hobbits do. Darokin - a republic in which merchant families have a large say. Fairly interesting I think though I know little of it Ylaurum - desert community wherein religion plays a prominent role. Recently free of Thyatian colonization Minrothad - a merchant trader community closely allied with Thyatis. Located south of Karameikos on a series of islands As for the eastern half of this continent and the other 2, much of the knowledge we have is due to the efforts by list members on various projects. Most of the projects are available off the web I think. Long .sig for once: Before the victory is won, some more will probably have to be thrown in jail. Before the victory is won, some more will have to be beaten up. Before the victory is won, some more will be called bad names and dismissed as rabble rousers, agitators, Communists and Reds simply because they believe in the brotherhood of man. Before the victory is won, some more may even have to face what Medgar Evers faced and go down into the Valley of Death. But if the death is the price that some must pay to free their children and their white brothers from a permanent death of the spirit, then nothing can be more redemptive . -Martin Luther King,Jr. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:58:49 +0100 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia(LONG) hi! As the mailinig list is now quite slow, I=B4m trying to catch up with it,= so it may well be that I will write some answer to mail sent years (.. okay, month) ago. >Matthew Levy wrote: >><>just can't see how all those 36th level guys wouldn't rampage all over Mystara conquering everything in sight and carving it up into little mini-kingdoms of various sorts, or just plain wandering around>> =20 >>I don't know if you've ever had a powerful Mage in your party or campa= ign >>(be him PC or NPC), but i assure you this is not what normally happens= . >yes i have had powerful mages in my campaign and this is EXACTLY what th= ey >did ... one took over Ierendi and started mass manufacturing high powere= d >air rifles, another one built a giant flying castle and a fleet of adamantine clad warships, another subdued a whole tribe of dragons and made them into mounts for his elite force, etc. In fact I can't think o= f >any that didn't do this. And these guys weren't even all that high in level. But that=B4s the problem!=20 One of the majot advantages of Mystara is that you have NPCs not only wit= h very different thinking but also with different power levels! There are quite some major NPCs past the 3oth level. And even they have no personal power, some leaders have quite some political or economical powers. So if IMC someone would take over Ierendi by force, first he would have t= o fight resistance, if he is a cruel ruler, second other nations would try = to investigate and find out, if the new ruler is a threat. If he is, they would also try to change this one way or other. I don=B4t know, what you mean by "tribe", but if the mage subdues too man= y dragons, some dragon rulers (see Dragon-magazine) might counteract! Or ev= en the Dragon-state from the Dragonlord-Trilogy. With the other things I don=B4t see a problem, except when the mages uses this items to attack or conquer something, then someone will resist. And = if "these not that high in level guys" could do such things, just think of what real high level NPCs could do. The rule of thumb IMC for nearly any situatution, but also for this one i= s: "What the PCs can do, NPCs could also do!". If the PCs have a good idea, fine, let them exploit it, but if they use it too often, word of it will get around, and others will use them, and they may even improve it! >fantasy >characters (and especially D&D characters) as a rule are power hungry, even those who are nominally good-aligned. =20 And why do you think so?=20 How is Sam, Legolas or even Gandalf power-hungy? How is Caramon or any Kender?=20 >in my Mystara, [cut]... but everybody uses violence to serve whatever goals they >have. That's what makes it dangerous, and hence, a world of adventure. and subtler methods are fine, but it would STILL mean that Alphatians would be involved in the politics of other countries far more often than they seem to be ... where is the Alphatian CIA? If you want a cruel world for your campaign, okay, but my Mystara is far different! >>2) It is not so easy to go all over the world and conquering others' dominions, you know? Sure, u could kill the rulers, but then u'd have = to >>find a way to control many domains scattered around great wastes: no e= asy >>task even for a high level mage, i assure u! iit's easier for a high level mage than it is for a low level fighter. =20 plus which, you don't actually have to administrate anything, all you ha= ve >to do is wander about with impunity raping and pillaging what you like .= .. >passwall into the vault, stick the gold in the bag of holding, and wraithform away ... easy as pie. 1.) But that has nothing to do with politics, with ruling a country. 2.) The above trick will work o0nce or twice, even more often if the PCs change the location of their thefts, but sometime they will come to the vault of a high-level NPC or to a better guarded one. And of course word will get around about their tactic. >>Wait, wait. Sure Alphatia was a superpower, but so is and was Thyati= s. >till a backwater relatively. kinda like China today compared to the US, maybe. Well, well, is there somebody having some prejudice?=20 But to stay on your line or argumentaion, why doesn=B4t the US conquer Ch= ina? >this brings us back around the cycle again ... if they don't cooperate, why don't they fight each other? away from one leads towards the other. Sorry, but is "not cooperating" and "fighting" the same? I definitly don=B4= t think so! I don=B4t cooperate with the Communistic Party in our country, = but I don=B4t fight them. Switzerland didn=B4t cooperate with the Allies in W= WII, does that mean that it was figthing them? >Many others didn't want to wage war on the other nations bbbecause they already had whatever they wanted and didn't want to risk = their >>welfare just for Alphatia's pride. >this is an old hat explanation by now. i find it somewhat possible but still quite sloppy. It may be old, but it is never the less valid.=20 I don=B4t know, what you do for a living, Mathew, but why don=B4t you tak= e on another job to get a bigger car, a bigger home, etc...? >>Obviously on its part Alphatia served as political power to hhinder >>Thyatis' expansionism in the same way: without Alphatia Thyatis would = have >>surely been unstoppable in the Old World, and many of the nations as w= e >>know them now wouldn't exist. >if that's true, that means the Alphatians must have consciously been engaging in a system of sovereignty guarantees towards various small nations such as Ylaruam, Darokin, and Minrothad ... if so that's fascinating, but why hasn't it showed up in the histories at all? Perhaps it is a high level diplomatic secret. To be honest, I don=B4t really get your ideas, Mathew or understand your aruments very often. Why does such a thing have to be official? To again take WWII as an example, the reason, why Germany was allowed to grow aggresivly quite some time unmolested, is because the Western countries hoped that Germany would be a power against the Commies in Russia. BUT there never was an official contract or anything.=20 >you are missing the point again: in a realistic fantasy world, EVERYBOD= Y >would be concerned about the presence of high level people, BECAUSE THEY ARE SO DAMN POWERFUL. if i live next door to a guy who can slay armies by pointing his finger and mumbling, i will be VERY concerned to see tha= t >he is happy with me all the time. =20 Sorry, I know some guys living near me, who have guns and know how to use them, that means they can slay some people by "pointing their finger".And I=B4m not trying to lick his ***. But I think you are right, that there a= re people, who are impresed by power. But that also means that they know abo= ut the power! Nobody can distinquish a o-lvl.-baker and a 36th level=F6 mage= , who decided to live his life as a baker. At least not at the first glance= . even if said badass lives a mile away, >or ten miles, or even a hundred or a thousand (depending on HOW powerful he is exactly), his very existence will affect my life constantly. That doesn't mean that as a DM I would throw characters against hopeless odds ... it means that as low level characters, they will have to rely on contacts with high level NPCs to protect them frequently, they will have to get good at keeping their head down and figuring out who's tougher th= an >they are, so they can AVOID fights when necessary. Players in my game learn quickly the moral value of cowardice. This has to be so because Alphatia's might (or whoever's) is there whether you like it or not. I think i see your point. But isn=B4t that the reason, why people live in complex political constructs? So like an US citizen relies on his government to protect him from the might of the USSR (atomic bombs or something) and could care not much about politics, it=B4s the same with a Thyatian farmer. >polemic understood but not accepted as valid. i do not dispute the indisputable and absolute supremacy of Mystara over all other worlds. But I think that many people on this mailing list think Mystara is the best, including me. >I only further assert the supremacy of my Mystara over yours. :) If it weren=B4t for the ";)" I would get angry and fed up.... >i was suggesting a rules change for the sake of new possibilities in gam= e >play. if you think it ought not to be, okay, but why not? if a 9th lev= el >guy can do it as a wand, why can't a 5th level guy do it as a tripod-mounted 40 lb. machine gun? or a 1000 lb. cannon? =20 Because you have to know something about gunpowder, modern mechanics, modern metallurgy, etc...? ************************************************************ =20 Peter Balazs Wurlitzerg. 37/12 1160 Wien 9003307@unet.univie.ac.at http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs ************************************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:10:46 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan >>Orcs adolesence is even earlier than humans. Due to their lack of intelligence they must grow quickly to be able to defend themselves and to reproduce. >> The Elves have no such need due to thier community which allows protection for >>and from all. Due to thier adaption to enviornment and magical capabilities, it >>is rare for a child to die before adolesence. That's at least my explanation for it. >Orcs are not necessarily stupid. In AD&D stats, they are of Average intelligence (8-9). Looked for a D&D equivilent but found none. I think this has been discussed before; intelligence of humanoids. I never said that orcs are stupid, but that they have a lack of intelligence, which i was comparing to Elves' intelligence. >The one thing orcs, as well as all humanoids, are adept at is survival. How long do you suspect a human community could last in the BrokenLands? IMO not too long. And despite how many times the humanoid villians are challenged they >always pop up later on to wreak further havoc. I'm not sure if you are argueing this point with me here. I never did comment on there survival capibilities. Obviously they are adept to survival, if not the Broken Lands wouldn't exist nor the race for that matter. All races are adept to survival. I merely stated that they reproduce and mature far quicker then elves do. It even states in the Cyclopedia that in the average encounter with orcs, half of them are children. This is hardly the case with Elves. That is why it would be rare for a child elf to die, and far more common for an orcish child to die. >They should be used for more than simple "Fighter Fodder". I have often seen humanoids used badly in a Game. It is truly a shame. Stupid, no. Primal more likely. I don't know where you get off saying this. I NEVER stated anything about the prowess of orcs. Also, please don't use "quotation marks" unless you are actually quoteing someone. I really don't see a reason for this whole post about how orcs aren't just "Fighter Fodder" when my post was about Elven lifespans. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:58:20 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Netlogo Contest is now officially... held over Well... I'm waiting on Sean to get back to me and then the voting will begin so I guess we'll hold it open till that time. So, all you that are little behind you can take a breather... done? Good, now back to work! ;D - -- Galwylin Email: galwylin@airnet.net Home Page: http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Enter the Mystara Netlogo Contest! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:24:04 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara PBeM Opening Greetings! Well, I've decided to give this a shot and see if I can pull it off. I'm accepting players for a Mystara Play By E-Mail game (about six). I will be incorporating character history into the game before it starts thanks to a wonderful suggestion (thanks, Daniel!). I've a webpage up with the rules used and how to create characters at http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/mystara_pbem.html. If you don't have web access just let me know and I'll mail the guidelines to you (I will do that for everyone as soon I get them into a readable file ;). I'm calling the game Champions of the Known World since I plan for it to involve multiple adventures and to see all the Known World (and maybe out to the Savage Coast too). If interested, email me and I'll get started incorporating character histories as they come in. My approach will be to follow the players lead and provide adventures on their journey. BTW, the game will use oD&D almost exclusively but there will be a little AD&D. And tell me what ya think about the page... I worked a whole day on it almost! ;D - -- Galwylin Email: galwylin@airnet.net Home Page: http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Enter the Mystara Netlogo Contest! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:55:39 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan In a message dated 97-12-31 02:15:25 EST, you write: << >> Orcs adolesence is even earlier than humans. Due to their lack of iiintelligence they must grow quickly to be able to defend themselves and to reproduce. >> The Elves have no such need due to thier community which allows protection for >>and from all. Due to thier adaption to enviornment and magical capabilities, it >>is rare for a child to die before adolesence. That's at least my explanation for it. >Orcs are not necessarily stupid. In AD&D stats, they are of Average intelligence (8-9). Looked for a D&D equivilent but found none. I think this >has been discussed before; intelligence of humanoids. <> Actually you did. In the original message you wrote "Orcs adolesence is even earlier than humans. Due to their lack of intelligence they must....." One that lacks intelligence could easily qualify as stupid. The comparison with Humans was only natural since the subject of Orc intellect was preceded by a Human reference. As such, the assumption you were comparing the two seemed an obvious choice. <<> The one thing orcs, as well as all humanoids, are adept at is survival. How >long do you suspect a human community could last in the BrokenLands? IMO not >too long. And despite how many times the humanoid villians are challenged they >always pop up later on to wreak further havoc. <> I was merely showing a venue in which humanoids use their intelligence in; survival. Where as Humans use their intelligence to build cities, raise crops, herd animals, learn to read, etc. , humanoids tend to focus upon survival. Which usually includes raiding, warfare, mercenaries for the proverbial villians, etc. >They should be used for more than simple "Fighter Fodder". I have often seen >humanoids used badly in a Game. It is truly a shame. Stupid, no. Primal more likely. << I don't know where you get off saying this. I NEVER stated anything about the prowess of orcs. Also, please don't use "quotation marks" unless you are actually quoteing someone. I really don't see a reason for this whole post about how orcs aren't just "Fighter Fodder" when my post was about Elven lifespans. >> But you did mention the subject of an Orc's "lack of intelligence" As with all or most of my response, this was a comment and/or observation. Call it an expanding of the subject matter. I associate it with the way that Orcs were brought into the discussion of Elven Lifespans. I was merely commenting upon one of the items you made mention of. I guess from now on, I'll just have to comment upon a whole post. As for my use of quotation marks, I will use them whenever I wish. In the case of "Fighter Fodder" I used them to point out a term. Still another use of quotation marks includes sarcasm. In using them for "Fighter Fodder" I intended a little of both; terminology and sarcasm. Various usage of quotes to represent different things is quite common on this and other forums. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, January 1 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA]The final christmas quiz [MYSTARA] - Dragon#241 Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA]The final christmas quiz [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Various Things... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:58:52 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA]The final christmas quiz This discussion about Shadow Elves as Jews is strange but interesting. As I've argued before, I think the way that Mystara (or any D&D world) portrays different demi-human "races" as having essential characteristics is just a coded way of dealing with the politics of race and ethnicity ... being of mixed Jewish descent, politically radical, and anti-Zionist, I find this discussion is a good example of how this can play out. It occurs to me that I have always thought of Gnomes as being more similar to Jews, since I was thinking historically ... MEDIEVAL Jews (i.e. those who were in the time period supposed to be represented by 11th century Mystara) did not have a kingdom of their own, were allowed to settle in various areas by specific rulers, were often highly concentrated in financial and technical specializations, etc. ... much like the Gnomish ghetto of Highreach they were "supposed" to be insular and distinct. Of course, Mystara is often a better metaphor for current real world politics than for medieval history. So on second thought I kind of like the Shadow Elf analogy ... but then if we wanted to get really strange why don't we blur our historical periods and have Hattian Storm Soldiers persecuting Shadow Elves and invading Aengmor? Or racist High Elves insisting that Shadow Elves are an impure element which is infiltrating their society? Or perhaps there can be Alfheimer refugee camps in Aengmor being policed by Shadow Elves with powerful boltthrowers who gun down teenage surface elves throwing rocks, and even international mediation efforts by Alphatia Thyatis and Darokin? who knows. these are just some thoughts about how we could play with this idea for future almanacs ... m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Patrick wrote: >>>Which nation represents us Jews? I can't think of one that does. >>Shadow Elves. >>Great Rain of Fire = Holocaust, Alfheim = promised land, 14 verses = 10 Commandments and many other resemblances that Herve made me notice a few years ago. >>Unfortunatley I haven't got that message anymore, but I guess you can find other likeness if you look at it. >Exactly. Rafiel's Chosen People show many parallels to RW Jews. They have been repeatedly exiled from their homeland; they have been persecuted; Rafiel, while essentially good, frequently comes across as cruel and harsh. Obviously the simile is not perfect, but it is pretty close:) Happy Holidays, everyone! >Patrick >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:05:20 +0100 From: Peter Balazs Subject: [MYSTARA] - Dragon#241 Hi! In Dragon#241 Dave Gross asked about opinions about the favorite campaign-settings. He wants to get mail, about what your favorite world ist. More importantly he wants to know, why that is so. So send an E-mail to dmail@tsr.com and include your full adress.=20 In the same issue there is a survey, which I think would be good, if everybody of us tries to fill out and send in. (If it=B4s not to late now= ! That=B4s the disadvantage of living in Europe, I=B4ve only got the #241 n= ow!) By the way, if you want to read something about my campaign, look at the page of a friend of mine: http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e8826343/FG.htm (a little story in english) or http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e8826343/thorsnod.html (this is in German, wit= h only some parts in english) ************************************************************ =20 Peter Balazs Wurlitzerg. 37/12 1160 Wien 9003307@unet.univie.ac.at http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs ************************************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:28:34 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA]The final christmas quiz Aaron E Nowack wrote: >Which nation represents us Jews? I can't think of one that does. >Aaron Nowack >Happy Hanukah everyone! >From my studies, I came to understand that a major part of the Jewish identity comes from the centuries they spent wandering without a true homeland. There may not be a people exactly like that on Mystara but I always thought the elves had the makings of a culture like that. With the conquest of Alfheim/Aengmor, it may not be much of a stretch. After all, they were forced from their homeland by the GRoF and have wandered a huge part of Mystara since. They settle down in various places only to eventually run into serious difficulty in at least a couple of them (the Sylvan Realm and Alfheim come to mind). I always thought that if someone wanted to have a Mystaran culture that was reminiscent of RW Jewish culture, the elves would be prime candidates.... Just some thoughts. Happy Hanukah, Merry Christmas and a Joyous Holiday Season to All! Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:19:36 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia Hi folks, you might wonder what I have meant with the subject title. It's a simple question: What happens to the water from Alphatian rivers pouring over the edge of the flying continent? Please write your ideas. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 19:44:16 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) At 12.58 31/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >Of course, Mystara is often a better metaphor for current real world politics than for medieval history. So on second thought I kind of like the Shadow Elf analogy ... but then if we wanted to get really strange why don't we blur our historical periods and have Hattian Storm Soldiers persecuting Shadow Elves and invading Aengmor? Or racist High Elves insisting that Shadow Elves are an impure element which is infiltrating their society? Or perhaps there can be Alfheimer refugee camps in Aengmor being policed by Shadow Elves with powerful boltthrowers who gun down teenage surface elves throwing rocks, and even international mediation efforts by Alphatia Thyatis and Darokin? >who knows. these are just some thoughts about how we could play with this idea for future almanacs ... Just a few years ago in Real World there was a peace agreement between Rabin and Arafat with the mediation of USA. At the same time me and Herve thought about a peace agreement between Alfheim elves and Shadow elves with the mediation of Darokin. Then many things changed in RW, but we decided to keep the peace process going in Mystara. Anyway your idea about Alfheimer refugees camps in Aengmor sounds very good. Thanks. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:15:40 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Various Things... Mystarans, The call has been made to io.com, and my account with them has been terminated. Because I am paid through til January 8th, this will take affect the 9th. Still, I recommend all mail now be sent exclusively to the MPGN addres (mystara-l@lists.mpgn.com) to avoid problems when the IO list does disappear. Then old Website is still up, and will continue to be until the account is gone. Right now I am just waiting for the people from my local ISP to send me the info on what it takes to get my files to their server for the new web pages. Once the old pages are in there new home I will begin work on new pages (but then again, you have that line before, eh? :) Other stuff to take care of... Chris Paul Billows meandered fecklessly... >I have to say I am quite pleased with the final sentence of the introduction. >Does this mean that we can discuss any homebrew campaign as long as its Classic/Original D&D? >With this in place there is definately no reason for me to try and create a OD&D >mailing list... unless the maintainer has a limit to what can be discussed? Hmmm, I don't really see why not. At this point I say go ahead. If the list starts to get flooded with stuff on homebrew OD&D campaigns, though, and I get enough mail indicating most people don't want this, I might have to reverse that decree. For the time being, though, post away! Tal Meta meandered fecklessly... >Is the MPGN list EVER going to leave Digest Issue #1? I've got something like ELEVEN issue #1's sitting in my inbox. :) Right now the digests are a little goofy, plus they have yet to make any of the digests, old or new, available on MPGN's ftp site. I have done some work to take care of it, but have yet to receive a response. Hardly surprising, considering the holiday season. To those on the digest: if you have all of the back issues of the digest, save them! The list may need them when things get back in order. That's it! Hope everyone had a happy holidy season! Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, January 2 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - Dragon#241 Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World [MYSTARA] - Re: [Admin] Various Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World [MYSTARA] - Netlogo Contest is Closed! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 19:03:55 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World A good overall summary. But I have a question for all of you. As a loyal player of the D&D game and eventually the Mystaran campaign setting (as it was later revealed) for nearly 20 years...I have been a defender of the game and ready with an explanation of the two games' (AD&D and D&D) differences. I found the support given in the gazetteer series and Dragon magazine articles (The Voyage of the Princess Ark) to be refreshing and promising. It was with hope and trepidation mixed that I viewed the discarding of D&D and the conversion of Mystara to AD&D. Without going into this too much, I saw the main mistake by TSR to be one of marketing. Mystara was billed as one of the oldest campaigns rich with adventure to excite the most experienced players. But the products that came out were hopelessly geared toward new players. Don't misunderstand what I say. The point of this is to say that the game was marketed in a halfway manner to two very opposed camps. Our campaign world did not stand a chance under the conditions. Anyway, my first question is this: How many of you use the Mystara setting prior to the Wrath of the Immortals (personally I think it is more interesting in many ways because of the presence of the Empire of Alphatia. But the drama present afterward with so much death and destruction is difficult to resist.) and how many of you use the setting after those events? Why? Second question: Apparently there is a Wizard's of the Coast website which has a questionaire for old products. Supposedly if enough people vote on a product they will resurrect it. Do you think Mystara stands a chance with Wizard's of the Coast in charge? Do you think if there is a resurrection then history will repeat itself? At 11:49 AM 12/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >>I'd like to know more about the Known World. >(Information comes from a wide array of sources. The Dawn of the Emporers boxed set and the Gazzetteer series are the best sources I think) >Oo boy! That's a doozy. Well, the Known World is the world of Mystara, that is the outside face of the planet. The interior of the planet is the Hollow World, a separate entity. The Known World consits of 3 major continents I believe..a large,fairly primitive southern one, an eastern one of empires long past their glory day and the main northwestern one (kind of an American-centric view of the world,hmm?) (This is the general feel I get from reading the info). Anywho, most of the writings about the KW thus focus on the NW continent. Here is where the major civilizations exist. Thyatis,Norworld,Rockhome,Karameikos and several others. These are described in module X1 briefly, in more detail in individial GAZes generally. GAZes were a 14-book (?) series detailing each culture. Thyatis and Alphatia (an island in the north) are the main forces in the KW before the War of the Immortals (which I don't have..I focus on the period before it). Thyatis is a Roman-style culture..they assimilate those around them, are fairly corrupt, are very militaristic, fairly educated and of course believe in colonization. Alphatia is a more..well..snobbish society. Only mages are really treated with respect and everyone else is dirt, even if related to the royalty. Drug use is common and magical skill is the by all and end all. They treat non-Alphatians as lesser forms of life. Both groups are heavily involved in plotting against one another and trying to grab land to further themselves. The main colonies are: >Ochalea - an Asian-style island near Thyatis and ruled by Thyatis. Conformity is the norm. >Pearl Islands - islands inhabited by dark-skinned people ruled by Thyatis. High emphasis is put on developing skills to a high degree. Achievement and success are to be strived for. >Isle of Dawn - a land ripped apart by Thyatian-Alphatian conflict. Each has territory here and this is where their battles are fought. Quite a chaotic mess. >Hinterlanders - primitive Germanic(?)Celtic(?) peoples with a generally nature-oriented clergy. Currently being conquered by Thyatis. Jen - the Jennites are a people being persecuted,enslaved and destroyed by the brutal Alphatians. They are also rather primitive people..horsemen I think >Norworld - a recently free former Alphation colony (in my timeline, post the modules CM1 and M2 and before WOTI). Ruled by a strong,independent former Alphation noble named Ericall and his lovely wizardess wife Christina. Adventurers are a common profession here unlike in many of the civilized lands and powerful monsters still reside everywhere. Qeodhar - Island ruled by the Alphations from afar, but whose reckless and stubborn leader Baron Norlan wishes independence (and the hand in marriage of one of the Alphatian princesses who is devoted to him) >Now, for the rest of the NW continent:(Most of these have 1 GAZ written about them) >Rockhome- the land of the dwarves and therefore the pinnacle of all that is right in the world >Alfheim - home of the wussy elven types Karameikos - territory recently free of Thyatis. Similar to Norworld in many ways, though smaller and more civilized. Glantri - an area ruled by several princes and princesses. Magic is in high regard here even more than in Alphatia, but the country is smaller and less influential. Lots of squabbling between various factions here. Atraughin - Ameridian style culture I believe Thar - Orcish and other non-human stronghold Ostland,Vestland,Soderfjord- Nordic peoples off to the eastern coast, north of Thyatis. One is run by pirates, one by local powers, one by a monarchy I believe >Ethengar,Heldann -as far as I can tell these are primitive peoples near Thar. Ethengarians are clan-oriented and in-fighting and are modeled after the horsemen of the Asian Steppes. Heldann is more similar to medieval Iceland. >Shadow Elves - Even more of a scumbag type than the normal elves, they hate Alfheim with a passion and seek to overthrow it. Shires - halfling territories run by 5 local heads. Their main occupations consist of holding back orcish invations and acting like hobbits do. >Darokin - a republic in which merchant families have a large say. Fairly interesting I think though I know little of it Ylaurum - desert community wherein religion plays a prominent role. Recently free of Thyatian colonization >Minrothad - a merchant trader community closely allied with Thyatis. Located south of Karameikos on a series of islands >As for the eastern half of this continent and the other 2, much of the knowledge we have is due to the efforts by list members on various projects. Most of the projects are available off the web I think. >Long .sig for once: >Before the victory is won, some more will probably have to be thrown in jail. Before the victory is won, some more will have to be beaten up. Before the victory is won, some more will be called bad names and dismissed as rabble rousers, agitators, Communists and Reds simply because they believe in the brotherhood of man. Before the victory is won, some more may even have to face what Medgar Evers faced and go down into the Valley of Death. But if the death is the price that some must pay to free their children and their white brothers from a permanent death of the spirit, then nothing can be more redemptive . -Martin Luther King,Jr. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:32:20 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dragon#241 In a message dated 98-01-01 07:24:15 EST, you write: << In the same issue there is a survey, which I think would be good, if everybody of us tries to fill out and send in. (If it´s not to late now! That´s the disadvantage of living in Europe, I´ve only got the #241 now!) >> I think the survey also appeared in the Nov/Dec issue of Dungeon too. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:20:11 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World (Interesting idea on the failure of marketing strategy clipped) >Anyway, my first question is this: How many of you use the Mystara setting prior to the Wrath of the Immortals (personally I think it is more interesting in many ways because of the presence of the Empire of Alphatia. But the drama present afterward with so much death and destruction is difficult to resist.) and how many of you use the setting after those events? Why? I use pre-WOTI simply because,well,I never bought WOTI. I don't game actively right now so this hardly matters. I just like the old setting as it was and would have preferred info on undeveloped areas instead of advancing the world chronologically. I hated Krynn as they advanced from the War of the Lance on..gaming worlds should be in stasis. With Mystara, there was no marketing of novels (which does require change in the world) so they could have left well enough alone. They didn't. I just found that..well..wrong. >Second question: Apparently there is a Wizard's of the Coast website which has a questionaire for old products. Supposedly if enough people vote on a product they will resurrect it. Do you think Mystara stands a chance with Wizard's of the Coast in charge? Do you think if there is a resurrection then history will repeat itself? Do we want Mystara back? That is, by a company. I like it as is, what with the list making almanacs, gazzetters for Hule and Wendar and the Kogolor and Malpheggi and the Empire of Selhomarr, specialty priests by the ADND rules and what have you. Heck, I can't wait for the final Mystara-Orient information as it's been in the works by the list far longer than I think any TSR Mystara product was. It's now the fans' world for us to do with as we please. I haven't seen WOTC's work, but I just don't see quality from gaming companies. They aim at young audiences or people seeking the melodramatic...I don't want Mystara to be in that light (though some nations obviously veer to one side of the good-bad spectrum like the Schattenalfen,Azcan or Ochalea). I think we're doing a good job of handling the world. Hopefully it will continue to go that way. Long live Mystara! ;) Some more may even have to face what Medgar Evers faced and go down into the Valley of Death. But if the death is the price that some must pay to free their children and their white brothers from a permanent death of the spirit, then nothing can be more redemptive . -Martin Luther King,Jr. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 19:59:25 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Admin] Various >Tal Meta meandered fecklessly... >>Is the MPGN list EVER going to leave Digest Issue #1? I've got something like ELEVEN issue #1's sitting in my inbox. :) >Right now the digests are a little goofy, plus they have yet to make any of the digests, old or new, available on MPGN's ftp site. Ah, but they have! It's just that every time they produce a new v1997.n001 file, it overwrites the one before it. >To those on the digest: if you have all of the back issues of the digest, save them! The list may need them when things get back in order. If nothing else, I've got copies of all the issues so far. (I've been saving them as 001a, 001b, etc.,) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:47:46 -0600 From: "Galwylin" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World >Without going into this too much, I saw the main mistake by TSR to be o= ne of >marketing. Mystara was billed as one of the oldest campaigns rich with adventure to excite the most experienced players. But the products tha= t >came out were hopelessly geared toward new players. Don't misunderstan= d >what I say. The point of this is to say that the game was marketed in = a >halfway manner to two very opposed camps. Our campaign world did not stand >a chance under the conditions. I agree. I saw no reason for them to market the setting as if it were on= ly for 1st timers. Seems like the attitude is that player's of oD&D were beginners or have to be eased into the complex system of AD&D. I could have accepted this but the box sets presented didn't have enough for thos= e who weren't new to it. The artwork was great but everything else seemed = to be repeating what the Gazatteers presented with no real updates. In fact= , it looked to me that anything that presented a problem to convert was jus= t lefted out. >Anyway, my first question is this: How many of you use the Mystara setting >prior to the Wrath of the Immortals (personally I think it is more interesting in many ways because of the presence of the Empire of Alphatia. >But the drama present afterward with so much death and destruction is difficult to resist.) and how many of you use the setting after those events? Why? I use the setting after WotI. My first PBeM is set well after these (101= 4 AC). I like this for two reasons mainly. First to keep current with the released materials so as there are no conflicts with what the players do and change. I figured I wouldn't run into those problems until a rerelea= se (if and when) and my campaign would be firmly entrenched enough to withstand any problems that might arise from this. The second reason is stability it affords shifting the Thyatis/Alphatia conflict away allowing the other countries to shine forth presenting a more focused Known World approach and conflict potiential. I also like the influence Alphatia as hinted at for the Hollow World. >Second question: Apparently there is a Wizard's of the Coast website which >has a questionaire for old products. Supposedly if enough people vote on a >product they will resurrect it. Do you think Mystara stands a chance with >Wizard's of the Coast in charge? Do you think if there is a resurrectio= n >then history will repeat itself? I've inquired about this and was told there are no present plans to reviv= e the setting but they can't guess to far into the future. I mainly have hope in the revival of oD&D with Mystara as the setting of choice for it.= =20 Not because I dislike AD&D but because oD&D offers a fair bit of more realistic options for campaigns. The only change I would make in this is demi-humans as classes but the Gazatteers handled this change but the rul= es only compiled into a newer and consise resource instead of over many OOP products. - -------------------------------------------------------- This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:10:10 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan >Actually you did. In the original message you wrote "Orcs adolesence is even earlier than humans. Due to their lack of intelligence they must....." One that lacks intelligence could easily qualify as stupid. The comparison with Humans was only natural since the subject of Orc intellect was preceded by a Human reference. As such, the assumption you were comparing the two seemed an obvious choice. Orcs do have a lack of intelligence AND they are stupid whether being compared to elves OR humans The lack of intelligence is documented just about everywhere ex. Rules Cyclopedia normal elf intelligence is 13 (reads & writes native languages, +1 additonal language) normal human intelligence is 10 (reads and writes native language (usually 2)) normal orc intelligence is 7 (can write simple common words) here is webster's primary definition of stupid stupid - very slow of apprehension or understanding; dull-witted; sluggish so the AVERAGE orc is stupid, not all, but the average one is the average human has a 10 int the average human PC has a 9-12 int but we all know a human could have anywhere between a 3 and 18 int >I was merely showing a venue in which humanoids use their intelligence in; survival. Where as Humans use their intelligence to build cities, raise crops, >herd animals, learn to read, etc. , humanoids tend to focus upon survival. Which usually includes raiding, warfare, mercenaries for the proverbial villians, etc. i dont understand this orcs use their intelligence to do the same things they build cities, raise crops, and herd animals if they have the natural resources in the area which they settle but because of their lack of intelligence they may not be able to, for example, build buildings as beautiful or as sturdy as the humans could every race knows how to survive if they didnt they would not exist and i dont see the humans becoming extinct anytime soon Happy New Year Everyone!!! - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:11:40 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Hey Fabrizio: I didn't realize you guys were already thinking along these lines so actively ... I guess I haven't kept up (I only read the messages from the list haphazardly and surf the mystara websites from time to time ... too few hours in the day, and anyway i haven't been running any games set near alfheim/aengmor since last summer). anyway sounds like you guys have some pretty interesting metaphors working out. what else? m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >At 12.58 31/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >>Of course, Mystara is often a better metaphor for current real world politics than for medieval history. So on second thought I kind of like the Shadow Elf analogy ... but then if we wanted to get really strange why don't we blur our historical periods and have Hattian Storm Soldiers persecuting Shadow Elves and invading Aengmor? Or racist High Elves insisting that Shadow Elves are an impure element which is infiltrating their society? Or perhaps there can be Alfheimer refugee camps in Aengmor being policed by Shadow Elves with powerful boltthrowers who gun down teenage surface elves throwing rocks, and even international mediation efforts by Alphatia Thyatis and Darokin? >>who knows. these are just some thoughts about how we could play with this idea for future almanacs ... >Just a few years ago in Real World there was a peace agreement between Rabin and Arafat with the mediation of USA. At the same time me and Herve thought about a peace agreement between Alfheim elves and Shadow elves with the mediation of Darokin. >Then many things changed in RW, but we decided to keep the peace process going in Mystara. >Anyway your idea about Alfheimer refugees camps in Aengmor sounds very good. Thanks. >-------------- >Fabrizio Paoli >brizio@lunet.it >Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 -------------- >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 10:19:50 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Sounds good. I like the idea of Storm Soldiers starting a first political then military campaign against some race or other...be it the Aengmor Shadowelves, the displaced Alfhiem elves, or the gnomes without a country. Just to throw my 2 cents in: I think the above are fine ideas for Jewish metaphors in general. But remember that Hitler (and others throughout history) did not merely attempt to exterminate the Jews. He set up horrid experiments involving live Jewish subjects...as far as the experimentation is concerned I think the dwarves in Glantri are an example. As for the extermination...one could argue that clerics in Glantri (pre-WotI) are a good example. Think of it. The Nazis drummed up support for their group by picking on a group that had some economic power. They took class warfare to its lowest limit. The Glantrians feared Clerical power (similar but not the same) and so exterminated them from their nation. They are not terribly aggressive toward other countries, though factions would wish them to be, therefore the analogy is sticky at some points. And some may argue that Clerics are not a race like Jews. Well, of course this is true. But the Jewish people are bound by both race and faith. Probably the last of its kind... >>At 12.58 31/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >>>Of course, Mystara is often a better metaphor for current real world politics than for medieval history. So on second thought I kind of like the Shadow Elf analogy ... but then if we wanted to get really strange why don't we blur our historical periods and have Hattian Storm Soldiers persecuting Shadow Elves and invading Aengmor? Or racist High Elves insisting that Shadow Elves are an impure element which is infiltrating their society? Or perhaps there can be Alfheimer refugee camps in Aengmor being policed by Shadow Elves with powerful boltthrowers who gun down teenage surface elves throwing rocks, and even international mediation efforts by Alphatia Thyatis and Darokin? >>>who knows. these are just some thoughts about how we could play with this idea for future almanacs ... >>Just a few years ago in Real World there was a peace agreement between Rabin and Arafat with the mediation of USA. At the same time me and Herve thought about a peace agreement between Alfheim elves and Shadow elves with the mediation of Darokin. >>Then many things changed in RW, but we decided to keep the peace process going in Mystara. >>Anyway your idea about Alfheimer refugees camps in Aengmor sounds very good. Thanks. >>-------------- >>Fabrizio Paoli >>brizio@lunet.it >>Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 -------------- >>*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:10:10 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia In a message dated 98-01-01 14:12:51 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: >What happens to the water from Alphatian rivers pouring over the edge of tthe flying continent? Since a flying continent requires magical tinkering with gravity, it should be little problem for the Immortals to magically fix the flow rates of the rivers so that they are unchanged from what they were in the outer world. Still, I would imagine that they make (from the point of view of the inhabitants of Alphatia) some most impressive waterfalls. Those who live below where Alphatia passes would get a bit of rain -- I am assuming that the water would be made to disperse rather than fall in a single mass. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:20:04 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia In a message dated 98-01-01 14:12:51 EST, you write: << What happens to the water from Alphatian rivers pouring over the edge of the flying continent? >> Awhile back, when AOL had the TSR Boards (argh!!) I asked a simular question that dealt with the coastal towns and cities of Alphatia that depended upon the sea for existence. Also asked about vampires and how the eternal red sun of HW affected them, besides turning them to dust. But that is another subject. Never really thought about the rivers and streams. I would say that the running waters still follow their courses. Upon reaching the "coast" they dissipate. What happens to them, I don't know. I am certain the Skyshield would keep the water from cascading upon the lands below. But with that in mind, the atmosphere surrounding the floating continent would eventually fill to capacity, drowning everyone upon her plains. I would assume that the Immortals, in their infinite wisdom, created a magical ward to transport this travelled water back to its point of origin (upstream) to begin the process anew. Nice question. Definite change of pace. Any other ideas? Theories? Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 15:31:10 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) At 22.11 01/01/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hey Fabrizio: >I didn't realize you guys were already thinking along these lines so actively ... I guess I haven't kept up (I only read the messages from the list haphazardly and surf the mystara websites from time to time ... too few hours in the day, and anyway i haven't been running any games set near alfheim/aengmor since last summer). anyway sounds like you guys have some pretty interesting metaphors working out. what else? Most of the work has been done in private e-mail. Next almanac will be full of unexpected events and will certainly rise many questions and comments from you all. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 15:29:02 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World At 19.03 01/01/98 -0500, Daly wrote: >Anyway, my first question is this: How many of you use the Mystara setting prior to the Wrath of the Immortals (personally I think it is more interesting in many ways because of the presence of the Empire of Alphatia. But the drama present afterward with so much death and destruction is difficult to resist.) and how many of you use the setting after those events? Why? What about using Mystara setting during WotI? :) My players just entered 1004 AC, so I'm still using pre-WotI Mystara, but soon things will change. If I should start a new campaign now I would probably use a post-WotI Mystara (1010 AC) because of the Almanacs, or maybe I'll start right with WotI. A campaign set far in the past (e.g. Dragonlord time) would be nice too. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 20:21:49 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Netlogo Contest is Closed! The deadline for entry is over and voting begins today! Many hard choices but.. there can be only one. Thanks to all the contestants and good luck to all of you! - --=20 This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Vote in the Mystara Netlogo Contest! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:58:46 -0500 From: owner-mystara-l@lists.MPGN.COM (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #1 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com Sender: owner-mystara-l@lists.MPGN.COM mystara-digest Saturday, January 3 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [none] [MYSTARA] - Netlogo Contest Entrance is Closed and Voting Begins! [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan Re: [MYSTARA] - Dragon#241 [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - Murdoch's letter [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Register With the NEW MML Directory! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 23:22:50 -0500 From: Daly Subject: [none] In my heart I am a coward. This is a difficult letter for me to write fathers. No doubt many of you will deny that it is truly I who write this letter. No doubt you will claim this letter a forgery and that it should be burned away like a bad memory. But it is memory of which I would speak. It was I who stood against the mad priest Lumar in the northeast. "The Keep on the Borderlands" some called it. But its rightful name is Castellan keep. It was I too who wrested the golden skull with its twin ruby eyes from the grip of that Thyatian wizard who would surely have destroyed us all. This is all common knowledge and does not prove who I am. But you know what comes next... Think back, fathers, to that time when I brought the skull to you. It was an evil yet tempting artifact. There were factions who would have chosen to make use of it for their own ends, for "good" they would have argued. So I stole the thing again. I stole it and destroyed it. There. That much is not common knowledge. You know that I am who I claim to be. It was part of the quest to destroy the thing that took me back in time. I met and spoke with Halav himself (I can hear the gasps of disbelief. The cries of "heresy!"). But that is not all. I spoke with Halav, and Petra and their comrade King Galen Glintblade. He was so named for the sword of cosmic steel which hung ever at his side. He swore upon that blade that Arik would be destroyed. Oh yes. I met him too. There are many misperceptions in our time, fathers. Arik was neither demon nor god. He was not a beholder or any of their kin. He was human and monster. He was a horribly evil man the likes of which ancient Traladara had never seen. But I get ahead of myself. King Halav was a mere boy who had been catapulted into his position. Please open your minds. He did not heroically slay the king of his village for the man's cowardice and unwillingness to face the beastmen. Actually it was to save his friends King Galen and Queen Petra and the huntsman Zirchev. They had met him on their way to entreat Halav's liege for help against the beastmen. But that ruler would hear none of it and ordered them slain. It was an accident really. For Halav could no sooner kill his king as himself. But once the deed was done he had no choice but to take leadership of the village. Besides, his kindness was well known and the people loved him. The former king's soldiers had been disgusted with their old ruler and were quick to give the boy-king their allegiance. Did I mention that Petra and Galen were engaged? Oh yes. It was only the impending attack of the beastmen that kept the two from tying the knot. That and a certain war that had to be fought and won in the east. While Petra's respect for the boy-king Halav grew as they traveled, Galen's jealousy grew to match it. Well to make a long story short, the four broke the army of Arik and defeated him in his lair. But the cretin had a certain magical gate which allowed him to visit a pocket dimension to recuperate. Zirchev and Petra were both out of it by now, Zirchev having been grievously injured back at the mass battle and Petra within the lair itself. King Galen ordered King Halav to take Queen Petra away from the gate. Galen stepped within and closed it from the opposite side trapping Arik on the other plane. Some of this I gleaned from communing with an unknown immortal while I was there. For instance, I know now that the part the immortals played in this was giving Galen eternal life so that he could stand between planes and keep Arik from returning forever...or at least for a long time. I also know the immortals were instrumental in planting the idea for using the pocket plane in Arik's mind in the first place. The man was evil and powerful. I was terribly afraid. It is my thought that the immortals were more than a little afraid too! As for the "Hundred Eyes" of Arik...the pocket plane he used was bound on all sides by what apparently are the sides of a ruby. Now I don't know if this thing floats in the Astral as a giant ruby or if it is completely imperceptible except by extremely difficult means. But I do know that Arik has been using the intervening centuries to chip away at the walls and infuse some of his power into these pieces of ruby. They become his "eyes" and are filled with his evil as well as his power. Where did he get his eternal life? I have two thoughts on the matter. The first is that somehow he attained immortality or an evil immortal granted him a measure of immortal life and power. But my 2nd thought is the one I favor. The idea that his hate has kept him alive...perhaps it is only my imagination, my tendency to daydream as you have often told me. I await your response. Murdoch, servant of Halav *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 00:39:24 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Netlogo Contest Entrance is Closed and Voting Begins! Oops... got that back and it looked like the whole contest was closed so here's the correct subject heading. Remember, deadline is Jan. 31. - --=20 This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Vote in the Mystara Netlogo Contest! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 11:21:01 +0100 From: Peter Balazs Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Re: Just a comment: >In my heart I am a coward. =20 [cut] Nice work! I=B4ve liked it! ************************************************************ =20 Peter Balazs Wurlitzerg. 37/12 1160 Wien 9003307@unet.univie.ac.at http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs ************************************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:39:44 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia In a message dated 98-01-02 14:35:30 EST, you write: << << What happens to the water from Alphatian rivers pouring over the edge of the flying continent? >> Awhile back, when AOL had the TSR Boards (argh!!) I asked a simular question that dealt with the coastal towns and cities of Alphatia that depended upon the sea for existence. Also asked about vampires and how the eternal red sun of HW affected them, besides turning them to dust. But that is another subject. Never really thought about the rivers and streams. I would say that the running waters still follow their courses. Upon reaching the "coast" they dissipate. What happens to them, I don't know. I am certain the Skyshield would keep the water from cascading upon the lands below. But with that in mind, the atmosphere surrounding the floating continent would eventually fill to capacity, drowning everyone upon her plains. I would assume that the Immortals, in their infinite wisdom, created a magical ward to transport this travelled water back to its point of origin (upstream) to begin the process anew. Nice question. Definite change of pace. Any other ideas? Theories? This reminds me of an illustration of one of the shard worlds which appeared in M1... will look and see what they said about the rivers there, also seem to remember Ashmorain (sp?) in the Blood Brethren Trilogy having a river which flowed off the edge too. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:37:41 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan I appologize to the other readers for this. However, I feel I must respond. There is some added info to the original post at the bottom concerning Orc lifespans, gestation, etc. If the current discussion is a bother please scroll down and accept my humble appologies. In a message dated 98-01-02 01:30:28 EST, you write: << >Actually you did. In the original message you wrote "Orcs adolesence is even >earlier than humans. Due to their lack of intelligence they must....." One that lacks intelligence could easily qualify as stupid. The comparison with Humans was only natural since the subject of Orc intellect was preceded >by a Human reference. As such, the assumption you were comparing the two seemed an obvious choice. Orcs do have a lack of intelligence AND they are stupid whether being compared to elves OR humans>> I agree that Ors are not as smart as the average human or elf. But, elves and humans also have a variation in intelligence. A Thyatian living in the slums of Thyatis City cannot sit and parlay with a Thyatian aristocrat on an equal intellectual footing. However, I still cannot say that orcs are stupid. I think the main factor is just how less intelligent the Orcs are than their human (and elven) counterparts. IMO the intelligence balance is slight (8-9 for an Orc & 10 for a human). The question is how much a difference does that one point of Int. count. <> I don't have the RC and have to go by the Basic Rules Box and AD&D. The Red Box states little on Orc know how. AD&D Monstrous Manual has them listed as of average int (8-9). Monstrous Comp. Vol3 has the orcs' cousins, the peaceful Odonti, at a same Int. level. The difference being disposition and lifespan. AD&D has the Orc as able to speak two languages. Better stop before we get into another D&D vs. AD&D contest. MM does mention that Orcs are stereotyped as stupid (paraphrased) but cites that they are in fact adept tactitians. Skilled miners. And excellent weapons smiths. Not bad for a stupid race. There are also D&D references of humanoid cunning (not going to give definition of cunning). PWA gives a few. And I am sure the Orcs of Thar has some examples. <> I'm not arguing that Orcs are smarter than humans. I am just saying they are not dumb animals. I appreciate the inclusion of the part about ordinary humans and the variation of their intelligence. << > I was merely showing a venue in which humanoids use their intelligence in; >survival. Where as Humans use their intelligence to build cities, raise crops, >herd animals, learn to read, etc. , humanoids tend to focus upon survival. Which usually includes raiding, warfare, mercenaries for the proverbial villians, etc. i dont understand this orcs use their intelligence to do the same things they build cities, raise crops, and herd animals if they have the natural resources in the area which they settle but because of their lack of intelligence they may not be able to, for example, build buildings as beautiful or as sturdy as the humans could every race knows how to survive if they didnt they would not exist and i dont see the humans becoming extinct anytime soon>> Exactly my point. Orcs as well as other humanoids are not as smart as the average human. Never said they were. BTW- Since lifespans and offspring originated this thread- A standard Orc lives about 40 years. 10 months gestation period. 2-3 offspring per birth. High mortality rate. Ondonti Orcs live 60 years. The rest is identical to the standard orc. IMO the longer lifespan and possibly a lower infant mortality rate, are due to a more stable living environment and better diet. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:44:30 -0500 (EST) From: rdroe@iupui.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dragon#241 When do you all usually get your Dragon magazines? I ordered it at least 10 weeks ago and am still buying off the shelf. They accepted my check so where's my magzine? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:08:52 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan Okay, this time I have done my homework! :) According to the Elves of Alfheim(The Gazetteer, I havent actually spok= en with any of the elves themselves) elves usually adventure between ages = 25 and 100. 25 equals about 16 in human years, 100 equals about 25. I would assume this would be similar with shadow elves though they go through training til the age of 120.=20 H=E5vard. - --- Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll ***************************************************************************To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:17:51 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World >At 19.03 01/01/98 -0500, Daly wrote: >>Anyway, my first question is this: How many of you use the Mystara = setting >>prior to the Wrath of the Immortals (personally I think it is more interesting in many ways because of the presence of the Empire of Al= phatia. >>But the drama present afterward with so much death and destruction i= s >>difficult to resist.) and how many of you use the setting after thos= e >>events? Why? My campaign is set in AC 999, and I'm planning to run the campaign thro= ugh the Wrath of Immortals period, though not the actual adventures themselves, because those have been played out earlier with the same players, whose other characters also exist in the same setting, though most of those characters die in 1010. (did I make this sound complicate= d?) I want to make my players comfortable with their new characters and the setting before my campaign reaches the timeline described in the variou= s almanacs, also, since my campaign is set in Karameikos, I want to give = my players a feel of a low power campaign at the start. Karameikos becomes= a bit more highly profilated after the War, doesn't it? any comments or suggestions appreciated. H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:38:17 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) I think it is time that I put on my false beard and my fatherly voice a= nd warn you all not to overdo this jews are shadowelves metaphor. Though in many ways it makes sense, I still feel that those damn Shadowelves have no buisness in Alfheim. That has nothing to do with my opinion on the Israel conflict, though. =20 I'm not quite done yet: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Daly wrote: >Sounds good. I like the idea of Storm Soldiers starting a first poli= tical >then military campaign against some race or other...be it the Aengmor Shadowelves, the displaced Alfhiem elves, or the gnomes without a cou= ntry. Well, why not? But I dont think they would do it if it didn't serve any higher purpose. Ie, Hitlers anti-jew propaganda did help unite the Germ= ans ( and other people feeling German) Who would the Storm Soldiers campaign against? I doubt that it'd be the Shadowelves, since they are so far away. It could be demihumans in gene= ral though..or does that sound a bit too much like Krynn in the days of Ist= ar? >Just to throw my 2 cents in: I think the above are fine ideas for Je= wish >metaphors in general. But remember that Hitler (and others throughou= t >history) did not merely attempt to exterminate the Jews. He set up h= orrid >experiments involving live Jewish subjects...as far as the experiment= ation >is concerned I think the dwarves in Glantri are an example. As for t= he >extermination...one could argue that clerics in Glantri (pre-WotI) ar= e a >good example.=20 good point. Also, you could see the Shadowelves as the nazis, fighting for Lebensraum....... >The Glantrians feared Clerical power (similar but not the same) and s= o >exterminated them from their nation. They are not terribly aggressiv= e >toward other countries, though factions would wish them to be, theref= ore the >analogy is sticky at some points. And some may argue that Clerics ar= e not a >race like Jews. Actually this fits very well IMO. Both are religious groups with strange(?) customs and practices. Ofcourse I dont think the anti-cleric politics have much appeal to the people of Glantri though. >Well, of course this is true. But the Jewish people are bound by bot= h race >and faith. Probably the last of its kind... Hmmm... I think I'll choose not to comment on this, since it could result in a political debate, with litle to do on this mailinglist. H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:54:52 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Magesmiley wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-02 14:35:30 EST, you write: =20 ><< << What happens to the water from Alphatian rivers pouring over th= e edge of >the flying continent? >> >=20 >Awhile back, when AOL had the TSR Boards (argh!!) I asked a simular = question >that dealt with the coastal towns and cities of Alphatia that depend= ed upon >the sea for existence. Also asked about vampires and how the eternal= red sun >of HW affected them, besides turning them to dust. But that is anoth= er >subject. The Red Sun does turn vampires to dust, should it do anything else? The= re are ofcourse undead in the HW who endure the suns harmful effects, but = I wont go into this since you werent really asking... So, what happens to all that water? There could be different effects for each Continent I suppose.. I personally dont like water running off the edge. I this the idea of t= he water dissipating is much better, wouldn't this create an area of mist surrounding the continents? H=E5vard ****** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:04:09 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Murdoch's letter On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Daly wrote: >In my heart I am a coward. =20 =20 >Murdoch, servant of Halav Hey I like this. A forgery ofcourse, but still intriguing. So how long can Galen keep his position? (One minor thingy: Galens blade made of cosmic steel? remember Halav brought bronze to the Traldar, they cound't know much about steel could they? So, whatabout that skull, who made it? Who is this Murdoch-person anyway? H=E5vard servant of no man (or woman, for the sake of political correctness ;) *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:21:24 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth I really like this.=20 I'm especially interested in the submarine. An AI you say? Does the AI have a name? I dont know about that love-affair thingie. Reminds me of something I s= aw on Star Trek TNG, about this thing thinking the Enterprise was its moth= er, but okay, I can deal with it :) Is this going to be in the Almanac. Whatabout the Undersea Timeline? H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:29:29 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - On 29 Dec 1997 3@giga.com.ar wrote: >Can you send me information about the rules of the cities in the Know= n >World? >, like Specularum. Hmmm. Those are pretty wide questions youre asking, Could you be a bit more specific? >Also I want to know more about the Poor Wizard's Almanac (or somethin= g >like that) and the Northern Realms. The Alamanacs; Poor Wizards Alamancs and the Joshuan Almanac describes Mystaras countries and the events of each year starting in AC1011 IRC. This work has been continued by people on this list in the Net Almanacs >What kind of monsters can I find in the Monster Compendium? you mean the Mystaran Monsterous compendium? Various creatures. Most of them are a bit too strange for the average campaign IMO. You dont really need it if you have the monsterous manual... If you feel that this is a bit too short a response, do tell. H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:35:26 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Kaviyd wrote: >Neither. Darokin is more like the USA in terms of attitudes. But of= course=20 >only pre-Wrath Alphatia would compare with the USA in terms of relati= ve=20 >power in its world. So, youre saying American Senators are 36th level wizards...? ;) Happy New Year people. H=E5vard - ---- Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:41:35 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >Just a few years ago in Real World there was a peace agreement betwee= n >Rabin and Arafat with the mediation of USA. At the same time me and H= erve >thought about a peace agreement between Alfheim elves and Shadow elve= s with >the mediation of Darokin. Im really disappointed you didnt mention Norways role in this Brizio, w= ith the Oslo treaty and all that. Well, I guess we dont have much to be pro= ud of since its all a mess again now. Funny. I dont see the Northern Reaches playing a role in a peace proces= s on Mystara. How strange ;)=20 >Then many things changed in RW, but we decided to keep the peace proc= ess >going in Mystara. Weren't you talking about a war in 1020? I guess I should just shut up and wait for upcoming Almanacs eh? H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:35:51 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Register With the NEW MML Directory! Mystarans, As I mentioned in a previous post, the MML is getting a facelift, and this includes the Member Directory. So, if you want your name in the directory, just fill out the "form" below and send it to me. Note that the entries from the old registry page will _not_ be used. Some of these are outdated, and starting from scratch is far easier. So, even if your name was on the old page, sign up! The only required components are the first two: Name and E-Mail Address. The ones thereafter are all optional, merely suggestions. Add additonal material if you like (although the Admin reserves the right to edit for brevity and relavence. We don't need a four paragraph description of your dog, for example :) Please send all responses to me rather than the list (unless you really want to send it to the list, though we had a thread like this not too long ago). I encourage everyone to join! >>>>>>>Snip -- Send this part only<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Name: E-Mail: Home Page: Home City/State/Country: Year I Started Playing RPG's: Year I Started Playing Mystara: Current Mystara Projects I Am Working On: Other xD&D Settings I Play: Other RPG's I Play: Occupation: Year of Birth: Other Hobbies: General Comments: >>>>>>>Snip -- Send this part only<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, January 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Get a Link to Your Mystara Page on the MML Home Page! [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The Digest Archives Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Huminoid Int. (Elven Lifespan) Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Huminoid Int. (Elven Lifespan) [MYSTARA] - Re: Murdoch, servant of Halav Re: [MYSTARA] - Murdoch's letter Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth [MYSTARA] - Underocean Timeline AC 1012 [MYSTARA] - AC 1012, Kaldmont 28 Re: [MYSTARA] - AC 1012, Kaldmont 28 Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA]The final christmas quiz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:40:10 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Get a Link to Your Mystara Page on the MML Home Page! Mystarans, Do you have a Mystara web page out there? If you do feel free to send the URL to the list Admin at one of the addresses below to have your page listed on the MML home page Mystara Links page. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:44:52 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The Digest Archives Tal Meta meandered fecklessly... >>>Is the MPGN list EVER going to leave Digest Issue #1? I've got something like ELEVEN issue #1's sitting in my inbox. :) >>Right now the digests are a little goofy, plus they have yet to make any of the digests, old or new, available on MPGN's ftp site. >Ah, but they have! It's just that every time they produce a new v1997.n001 file, it overwrites the one before it. Your right. After I read this I went and searched, and the archives are there, just not where I thought they would be (They are not archived with the other mailing list archives for some reason). Again, I have sent e-mail off to those in control and hopefully it will be fixed soon. Thanks for the pointer! Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:50:16 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan In a message dated 98-01-03 21:25:15 EST, you write: << According to the Elves of Alfheim(The Gazetteer, I havent actually spoken with any of the elves themselves) elves usually adventure between ages 25 and 100. 25 equals about 16 in human years, 100 equals about 25. >> was there a table comparing age categories in the gaz? and if it went further than 100 = 25, could you post the rest? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:46:40 EST From: Inconu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Huminoid Int. (Elven Lifespan) << MM does mention that Orcs are stereotyped as stupid (paraphrased) but cites that they are in fact adept tactitians. Skilled miners. And excellent weapons smiths. Not bad for a stupid race. >> In d&d rules, intelligence mostly effects languages known and Weapon/Nonweapon proficiencies. I agree that an orc could be a skilled miner or whatever, but the process of learning trades for humanoids would be at a slower rate then humans/demihumans. In ad&d I believe orcs get a (-1) intelligence and (-1) charisma. Also, thier maximum scores in those areas are 17....not 18 as with humans, or even 19 and 20 for some Elven clans. With the average orc being of less intelligence and charisma than the average human, orcs are sterotyped as stupid and mishappen looking creatures; and rightfully so. Not to mention ogres or trolls intelligence scores, which are far lower than even orcs. The huminoid races are just typically slow in the mental aspect, with thier physical prowess offsetting that defficiency. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:20:38 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia In a message dated 98-01-03 23:44:42 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >So, youre saying American Senators are 36th level wizards...? ;) No, but the amount of military might that Alphatia threw around in the _Wrath of the Immortals_ war is comparable to what the USA could do in the real world. And I do see another parallel -- if we regard the Known World as corresponding to Europe, the US fits in well as a large and powerful country that is located on another continent. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 04:42:53 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth In a message dated 98-01-03 23:47:32 EST, you write: << I really like this. I'm especially interested in the submarine. An AI you say? Does the AI have a name? I dont know about that love-affair thingie. Reminds me of something I saw on Star Trek TNG, about this thing thinking the Enterprise was its mother, but okay, I can deal with it :)>> Thanks. The sub's cybercomputer is not AI. It is an actual living person. At its conception the Blackmoor techs saw the need for a computer to oversee the goings on of their warmachines. They had developed standard computers with limited AI but found these too irrational for proper use. Instead they focused upon combining the speed and calculations of a computer with the morality and common sense of a human. The Blackmoor techs devised a means to take the living bodies of people, primarily terminally ill, and give them a new reach on life. Extensive mental screenings were done to weed out potential "bad seeds". The Cyber Computer was designed for the new Talkeria (subject to change) Class Assault Submersible. Plans were underway for incorporating this new computer sysytem into existing defense networks to replace the "tricky" standard AI units already in use. The GRoF stopped this upgrade. The set up for the Cyber Computer is fairly simple. Within the vehicle of choice is a high security chamber. In this chamber is a cylinder containing the dormant body of the person. The cylinder is filled with a greenish colored fluid which sustains and preserves the body. The body is clothed in a tight fitting one peice jump suit. Hoses, wires, etc attach to the suit to provide an interface to life support and the computer hardware. There are of course backup systems and an armoured casing that can be closed around the cylinder if a threat is present. The Computer's job is to run and monitor the accumulated mass of little things that build up in a sub or battle base. In times of crisis, it is used to calculate plotting solutions for the weaponry. It has access to the ship/facility's databanks. The officers have direct links to the computer via mastoid implants and can communicate via thought. NCOs and enlisted men access via mounted devices about the ship. Their communication is limited to verbal means. The computer respects the chain of command; a higher ranking officer overrides a lesser. Another role the Comp. plays is as advisor. Any of the crew can speak with her. To aid this role, the computer has been given the means to project an image (of itself before being "computerized")anywhere inside the ship/facility via projection devices mounted to the ceiling of each room. The sub and computer in question currently has not been named. For now, I'll call her Meg and the sub the Eel. More appropriate names will be used in the final draft. Meg is in bad shape. Her body is dormant but her mind active. Vivid are the memories of the crew of the Eel being killed by the sub's contingent of Battle Robots. She does her best to block out these memories but they often sneak up on her while she "sleeps". The presense of the Battle Robots and the remains of the crew do little to help. Her duties to maintain the sub are limited and she has much free time. The centuries of isolation have almost driven her insane several times. She has turned her free time to repeatedly going through the ship's databases, paying particular attention to the personnel records and crew entertainment (films, music, etc.). The recent visits by the strange man Noland has been a godsend to her. Meg wishes to be a normal human again. When she volunteered for the computer project, she was suffering from an incurable disease. She hoped that the project would allow her time to live on until a cure could be discovered. And in fact a treatment was developed prior to GRoF. Meg was to begin the treatments at the end of the Eel's tour. Meg cannot be returned to her previous health even if a cure (clerical) was used. She has been in stasis too long. Her body is too dependant upon the preserving fluids of the cylinder. The only option is Ressurection, Reincarnation, or some other simular spell. The machinery that keeps Meg "alive" is failing. It is currently alternating on backup systems. At the current rate, Meg will die in 10-20 years. Noland knows this as does Meg. Meg does not know that Noland is an Immortal. Noland is debating on how to act. Meg is aware of the demise of the Blackmoor and the emmense expanse of time that has passed. Beyond that she has limited knowledge of the goings on since that time. What she has discovered comes from Noland. The Eel is also in bad shape. When the Battle Chassises "revolted"and killed the crew, several peircing shots breeched the hull. Also, Meg followed the captain's orders and "bottomed the boat". In doing so, a gash was created along the bottom of the sub. As a result about a fifth of the sub is flooded. There is also some structural damage (the sub's spine). The Battle Robots are still active. They follow their last set of orders as delivered by the malfunctioning computer on Davania "Kill All Humans Onboard and Proceed to Davania Base". The Battle Bots have accomplished the clearing of huimans but have not the means to move the ship as Meg cannot and will not do it for them. Meg despises the Bots, seeing them as a bunch of stupid bots that killed her friends. Besides, the Davania base is well inland and away from the sea. <> No to both questions. To date, the whole thing is unfinished. I dug myself a deep hole with this as I have to work out histories for Meg as well as the crew (focusing upon the officers and NCOs). Another problem I have that fits with thye base on Davania is keeping the Setting balanced. I don't want the Blackmoor weaponry to be let loose upon Mystara. Access to the hand weapons, tanks, planes, and missiles of the Blackmoor would be a Munchkin's dream. The two (sub and base) are linked. One can lead to the discovery of the other. In the case of the base, the objective lays with the PCs aiding the Divergans to destroy the base. The objectives for the sub, are pretty obvious. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 05:54:22 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Huminoid Int. (Elven Lifespan) In a message dated 98-01-04 03:23:30 EST, you write: << In d&d rules, intelligence mostly effects languages known and Weapon/Nonweapon proficiencies. I agree that an orc could be a skilled miner or whatever, but the process of learning trades for humanoids would be at a slower rate then humans/demihumans. In ad&d I believe orcs get a (-1) intelligence and (-1) charisma. Also, thier maximum scores in those areas are 17....not 18 as with humans, or even 19 and 20 for some Elven clans. With the average orc being of less intelligence and charisma than the average human, orcs are sterotyped as stupid and mishappen looking creatures; and rightfully so. Not to mention ogres or trolls intelligence scores, which are far lower than even orcs. The huminoid races are just typically slow in the mental aspect, with thier physical prowess offsetting that defficiency. >> I'll agree with that. My case all along was that Orcs as well as humanoids are not stupid. I agree that on average they are not up to par with a human or elven counterpart. It's just a personal quirk of mine when I see humanoids used as a bunch a bumbling fools. Especially in their own environment (BrokenLands). IMC Orcs are worthy adversaries that can and will (if properly led) challenge the PCs. IMC I often play upon the misconceptions humans have toward humanoids. I do the same with humans and demihumans. It tends to make for a better game. In particular, it makes the PCs think things out. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 1998 11:48:22 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Murdoch, servant of Halav When the gates will open... I'll fall into my dippest side of my sadness. I like very much your resume. Can you tell me more about Halav and the Inmortals? I thing that what keeped Halav in life was his hate. It's really good story. Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 10:07:36 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Murdoch's letter A Response to a witty and intelligent Scholar of our world of Mystara, At 03:04 AM 1/4/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Daly wrote: >>In my heart I am a coward. > >>Murdoch, servant of Halav >Hey I like this. >A forgery ofcourse, but still intriguing. >So how long can Galen keep his position? Good question. And a timely one at that. You see, Galen was given immortal life by those we worship. It was the least our immortal liege could do for the poor fellow once he and Queen Petra attained immortality. Problem is, here in our modern day, Galen's memory is fading. He is growing more and more forgetful about what he is and what his purpose is. A dangerous situation indeed... >(One minor thingy: Galens blade made of cosmic steel? remember Halav brought bronze to the Traldar, they cound't know much about steel could they? Very astute. Remember that it was I who traveled back in time and observed these strange and troubling things. Galen was jealous of Halav's popularity and apparently destiny driven life. He saw himself as much more fit to be destiny's pawn. He went on his own quest to a far off land and brought the blade back with him. I referred to it as Cosmic Steel because I am familiar with steel. The actual material of the blade could be something all together different. Interesting sidenote: The people of Halav's time referred to the blade as "Silverbronze". >So, whatabout that skull, who made it? Arik made it. Calling upon the power of the Ancient One--He Who's Name I Fear To Speak. Nasty fellow who goes about in tattered black robes and wields a scythe... >Who is this Murdoch-person anyway? Me. I was born of a Traldar mother and a Thyatian father. The priesthood was a good place for me. Murdoch, servant of Halav. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:32:09 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Inconu wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-03 21:25:15 EST, you write: ><< >According to the Elves of Alfheim(The Gazetteer, I havent actually spoken >with any of the elves themselves) elves usually adventure between ages 25 >and 100. 25 equals about 16 in human years, 100 equals about 25. >> >was there a table comparing age categories in the gaz? and if it went further >than 100 = 25, could you post the rest? Sorry, there was no table. What I've said above is pretty much it. Elves above 100 years have usually chosen their path and are thus usually not adventurers. Elves are expected to live til about the age of 600-1000. (Information below in quotation marks are direct quotes from the text. All the info is from the Alfheim Gaz) I've had a look at some NPCs from the Alfheim Gaz though: Beasthunter, Clanmaster of the Longrunners is 650 and noted to be the youngest of all the clanmasters Brendian Erendyl, Clanmaster of Clan Erendyl is referred to as an old elf, aged 800. Brightsword, captain of the Guard of Clan Red Arrow is referred to as quite young, a mere 450 years. "Carlisan, Counselor to the Clanmaster Chossum came to Chossum Clan quite young (about 35 years old)" Starwatcher: His hair is prematurely white ("He is only 700 years old") Taragin Oakbranch Guardian of Alheim Town and Counselor of Clan Grunalf "He still looks quite youthful, though the problems of his position have given him more care wrinkles than are commonly seen on an elf of his age (about 650)" Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:54:08 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] The Bohemoth On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:21:24 +0100 (MET) =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= writes: II really like this.=20 >I'm especially interested in the submarine. An AI you say? Does the AI have a name? >I dont know about that love-affair thingie. Reminds me of something I s= >aw >on Star Trek TNG, about this thing thinking the Enterprise was its moth= >er, >but okay, I can deal with it :) >Is this going to be in the Almanac. Whatabout the Undersea Timeline? Its not in the Undersea timeline yet, but its possible that the sub might be discovered by Underocean in the future. Perhaps in 1014 at the earliest. >H=E5vard >Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy >toves >Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the >wabe: >or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the >borogoves, >http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= >ll >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. "Ooops." -PC after damaging the Doomsday device *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:50:18 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Underocean Timeline AC 1012 Here it is. The next part of the Underocean Timeline. Anyone with comments or ideas, e-mail me. AC 1012 Nuwmont 1 New Year Underocean celebrates the New Year. The Army begins to investigate yesterday's attacks. The mage Aharon prepares his report on the DoD. Nuwmont 18 Report Filed The mage Aharon files his report on the Day of Dread. Vatermont 11 Clashes with Zandor Some patrols are attacked by submesiles from Aquas. Many of the soldiers in the patrols die. Juliast orders that patrols keep their distance from Aquas submersiles. Thaumont 8 Spies Sent Juliast sends spies to Aquas. Flaumont 23 Attack Repulsed A patrol repulses an attack by aquatic beholders. EDITOR'S NOTE: These aquatic beholders' large eye has a undead beholder's spell reflection power, instead of the ability to flash brightly. Yarthmont 15 City found Patrols discover a city of Aquatic beholders. They immediatly return to the capital. Yarthmont 17 Ambassadors Sent Juliast sends ambassadors to the aquatic beholder city. Klarmont 6 Spies Report Spies in Aquas report of a growing resitance to Zandor's rule. Juliast orders the spies to aid the resistance, without letting them learn of Underocean. Felmont 7 Ambassadors report The ambasadorrs to the Aquatic beholder city report that the attacks have been due to enchroachment on territory claimed by the beholders. Juliast orders withdrawal from akk disputed territory. Felmont 11 Attack Cease Aquatic beholder attacks cease. Frymont 8 Votes held Elections for the Council of Advisors are held. The members of the council: The Capital: Aharon (triton mage, Monarchist) Maestrom: Maed, commander of the Maelstrom Guards (Popular) S Area: Arantria (Aquaendri, Monarchist) W Area: Atrori, triton cleric (Popular) E Area: Tehar, triton mage (Monarchist) N Area: Gehan, triton cleric/mage (Popular) Ambrymont 23 Troops Sent The Council unaminously votes to secretly send troops to Aquas to aid the resistance. Kaldmont 12 Coup in Aquas Zandor is deposed today. Underocean troops aid in fighting off loyalist soldiers, withoutrevealing their identities Kaldmont 13 Alphatain Council formed The Alphatain Council is formed. The Council of Advisors votes not to establish relations. Kaldmontt 28 The Day of Dread Magic fails all over Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 1998 19:29:18 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - AC 1012, Kaldmont 28 Why in 28 of Kaldmont in the year 1012 AC the magic fails? Do the meteor have any connection? Jonathan Lebiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:03:43 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AC 1012, Kaldmont 28 In a message dated 98-01-04 20:30:30 EST, 3@giga.com.ar writes: >Why in 28 of Kaldmont in the year 1012 AC the magic fails? Since the end of the War of Wrath in 1009 AC magic has failed throughout Mystara on that day every year. There is nothing unique about 1012 AC in that regard. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:02:57 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA]The final christmas quiz On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Aaron E Nowack wrote: >Which nation represents us Jews? I can't think of one that does. Herath has got some Jewish-sounding names, though it doesn't really represent the culture. ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, January 6 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - War of Wrath in 1009 AC Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The MML Page is Up! (Sorta...) [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark Articles Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jan 1998 13:37:06 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - War of Wrath in 1009 AC What is the War of Wrath in 1009 AC? There is a connection with the Wrath or the Inmortals? What is Wrath of the Inmortals? Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:09:48 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-03 23:44:42 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: =20 >>So, youre saying American Senators are 36th level wizards...? ;) ==20 >No, but the amount of military might that Alphatia threw around in=20 the _Wrath of the Immortals_ war is comparable to what the USA=20 could do in the real world. And I do see another parallel -- if we=20 regard the Known World as corresponding to Europe, the US fits=20 in well as a large and powerful country that is located on another=20 continent. =20 yup. However, Thyatis' relationship with the countries of the known world se= ems similar to that between the US and Europe, while Alphatia conquers land= s like Belisaria (Russia and eastern Europe?) The comment I made about wizards and senators was ofcourse a joke :) H=E5vard **** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:34:28 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, [iso-8859-1] H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >=20 >I think it is time that I put on my false beard and my fatherly voice and warn you all not to overdo this jews are shadowelves metaphor. sounds to me like somebody is developing a Yahweh complex ... just kidding, I'm not out to start a fight (but flame back if you like, I can take it). :) >=20 >Though in many ways it makes sense, I still feel that those damn Shadowelves have no buisness in Alfheim. That has nothing to do with my opinion on the Israel conflict, though. hm? i thought the connection between RW and Mystara WAS the point. >=20 >I'm not quite done yet: >=20 >=20 >On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Daly wrote: >=20 >>Sounds good. I like the idea of Storm Soldiers starting a first politi= cal >>then military campaign against some race or other...be it the Aengmor Shadowelves, the displaced Alfhiem elves, or the gnomes without a count= ry. >=20 >Well, why not? But I dont think they would do it if it didn't serve any higher purpose. Ie, Hitlers anti-jew propaganda did help unite the German= s >( and other people feeling German) >=20 the "explanation" for Nazi anti-semitism is an old and contested issue for political scientists (like me) and other historical explainers. One way of looking at it is to say that Hitler actually did imagine Jews to be his enemy, and that he was not cynically manipulating popular opinion for some other purpose - he was really that hateful. This seems pretty reasonable given that he wrote Mein Kampf long before he had any actual political power - but it doesn't explain the way that his messages resonated with so many Germans. On the other hand, saying that propaganda is just that and only exists to serve a "higher purpose" is to say that the Nazis were actually rational ... and I think that's kind of ridiculous, actually. I tend to think that most cultures founded upon racial or ethnic distinctions (including my own) are potentially susceptible to Nazi-like movements, and that the complex psychological, sociological, economic, and political process by which that happens is not something that can be quickly or easily understood. Of course, D&D is a game and Mystara is a fantasy world, not a social science research project. How Storm Soldiers think and act depends on how we want them to ... let's face it, they're our pet Nazis. I was just pointing out that we can fire up our imaginations in interesting ways by thinking about this. So I guess that's what we're doing. Maybe we could create a set of adventures around the question "why the hell do the Storm Soldiers want to persecute Shadow Elves, anyway?" The PC's could even be some sort of anti-fascist "activists". >Who would the Storm Soldiers campaign against? I doubt that it'd be the Shadowelves, since they are so far away. It could be demihumans in genera= l >though..or does that sound a bit too much like Krynn in the days of Istar= ? >=20 Perhaps some group that is perceived as internationally influential and prestigious but lacks real political power (like real world Jews before Hitler) ... a good example I mentioned earlier was Gnomes. Shadow Elves don't work because they actually do have a state (therefore are more like post-WWII Israelis), although the "threat of assimilation" when Shadow Elves infiltrate Alfheim is an interesting metaphor for race-purity notions. =20 >>Just to throw my 2 cents in: I think the above are fine ideas for Jewi= sh >>metaphors in general. But remember that Hitler (and others throughout history) did not merely attempt to exterminate the Jews. He set up hor= rid >>experiments involving live Jewish subjects...as far as the experimentat= ion >>is concerned I think the dwarves in Glantri are an example.=20 Interesting, although RW Nazi Germany was not the only country to perform horrible research on human subjects. But then Dwarves could certainly be perceived as an international minority with wealth and technical prestige but little power ... and look at the infamous anti-Dwarf pogrom in Rhoona (module X3 - do we have a canon date on that?) ... maybe Dwarves are a target of storm soldiers instead of elves. As for the >>extermination...one could argue that clerics in Glantri (pre-WotI) are = a >>good example.=20 >=20 the anti-clerical laws in Glantri always seemed to me to be a reference to the Soviet bloc ... which brings up a good point, does communism exist on Mystara in any form? how exactly do Mystarans understand their political and economic systems? do different guilds riot in the streets against competitors (as happened in Machiavelli's Italy)? The global economy (such as it is) of Mystara might be an even better source of adventures than the usual feudal politics of D&D games. In one of my games (just to illustrate what I am talking about), the Aengmorian mercenary and assassin Xorex Forestburner, bane of the Grunalfs during the invasion, was hired alongside his Orc companion Snorc by the Hattian merchant G. Wilhelm Hoffman, who owns a Selenica-based mining company with ties to the Heldannic Knights, to break up resistance among enslaved Orcs and humans who were being used to mine Cobalt in the Altan Tepe. The miners, you see, had begun protesting dangerous working conditions through strikes and sabotage, and were being led by shamans worshipping Yagrai, who they conceived of as a savior of the oppressed and downtrodden. However, mistrust between Xorex and the Hattians, as well as between PC's, shut down the game ... but that was the idea. =20 >good point. >=20 >Also, you could see the Shadowelves as the nazis, fighting for Lebensraum....... >=20 I thought the more direct analogy was to the Israelis (and I am not afraid to make the controversial statement that the Israeli's settlements in the West Bank and in fact in Israel itself aren't anything different from "Lebensraum" thinking). >=20 >>The Glantrians feared Clerical power (similar but not the same) and so exterminated them from their nation. They are not terribly aggressive toward other countries, though factions would wish them to be, therefor= e the >>analogy is sticky at some points. And some may argue that Clerics are = not a >>race like Jews. see my above comments about the Soviets ... though again the analogy is only what we make of it. I guess a good way of conceiving of this discussion is to say that we are discussing which metaphors make sense to us to we can get our imaginations in sync (as opposed to arguing over whether the metaphors are "right" or not). =20 >>Actually this fits very well IMO. Both are religious groups with sstrange(?) customs and practices. Ofcourse I dont think the anti-cleric politics have much appeal to the people of Glantri though. well what exactly do the people of Glantri believe? Is Rad-worship just a a kind of forced religion that Etienne has created ham-handedly (like Stalin's Cult of Personality)? >=20 >>Well, of course this is true. But the Jewish people are bound by both race > > and faith. Probably the last of its kind... Oof! I realize that this is indeed the way many Jews see themselves (and are seen by just about everybody else) but it still freaks me out. Especially since the notion of a race is so much of a modern notion ... Jews were not seen as a race at all during the inquisition, for instance. Anyway I could probably start going off here and I don't have time to do the topic justice. If anybody's interested Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism is a great book on the subject. But this is getting less and less Mystara-relevant. >=20 >Hmmm... >I think I'll choose not to comment on this, since it could result in a political debate, with litle to do on this mailinglist. as you say. take care, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 21:22:18 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia At 08:09 PM 1/5/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >>In a message dated 98-01-03 23:44:42 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: =20 >>>So, youre saying American Senators are 36th level wizards...? ;) ===20 >>No, but the amount of military might that Alphatia threw around in=20 the _Wrath of the Immortals_ war is comparable to what the USA=20 could do in the real world. And I do see another parallel -- if we=20 regard the Known World as corresponding to Europe, the US fits=20 in well as a large and powerful country that is located on another=20 continent. =20 >yup. >However, Thyatis' relationship with the countries of the known world seems similar to that between the US and Europe, while Alphatia conquers lands like Belisaria (Russia and eastern Europe?) Did Alphatia conquer Belisaria? I mean aside from the initial invasion of the Alphatians against the Cypri savages? Am I the only one old enough to remember CM1 Test of the Warlords? In which Alphatia was first introduced? The reason I ask is that I am currently reading the 2nd book of the Dragonlord trilogy and am remembering a time when the Alphatians were the "good guys" and the Thyatians were the power hungry expansionists... Back then I saw Alphatia as a kind of England (or empirical Europe in general) and Norwold as an American-like colony. Thyatis was a rival of the mother country in my campaign and Alphatia was the beneficial mother country. Of course, once the threat of Thyatis was less looming the characters started to feel the bite of the mother's heavy taxes and began thinking of independence. The moving of beneficial mother country to power hungry despotic mother country made that campaign interesting. >The comment I made about wizards and senators was ofcourse a joke :) >H=E5vard >**** >Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves >Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: >or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, >http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:07:33 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The MML Page is Up! (Sorta...) Mystarans, Well, I have added the directory entries I have recieved so far (keep them coming!), and have decided to go ahead and make the site available. I will warn you that it is far from complete. Although my site will not be graphics heavy, it has little more than text links at the moment (Hey, I can't just let Photoshop sit there on my HD, going unused! So expect a few graphics). Again, a warning that the site is not done. What is there is the newest version of the FAQ, a link to the digests at MPGN, the directory (which is not even alphabetized yet), plus a few other miscellaneous links (including a link to get the Shadow Elf Gazetteer for free!). So, check it out, especially if you have sent in a directory entry, so you can proof it and clue me into any errors. Besides, you just might find a picture of your Admin there somewhere... http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 06:49:24 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark Articles Greetings! I don't have Bruce Heard's address so if your out there Bruce... Do you have an idea why the TSR website doesn't have plans to add your Princess Ark articles to their Dragon Magazine section? - --=20 This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ ICQ #6755972 Vote for the Mystara Netlogo! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:11:14 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, [iso-8859-1] H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >>I think it is time that I put on my false beard and my fatherly voi= ce and >>warn you all not to overdo this jews are shadowelves metaphor. >sounds to me like somebody is developing a Yahweh complex ... just kidding, I'm not out to start a fight (but flame back if you like, I = can >take it). >:) As they say: On the internet noone knows who is the God..or was that do= g? :) >>Though in many ways it makes sense, I still feel that those damn Shadowelves have no buisness in Alfheim. That has nothing to do wit= h my >>opinion on the Israel conflict, though. >hm? i thought the connection between RW and Mystara WAS the point. Ah yes. My point was that while I find this interesting, forging these links too strong might actually restrict the way we think about Mystara= s peoples. If we establish that Shadowelves _are_ jews then could the Shadowelves do anything the jews wouldn't do? >>I'm not quite done yet: >>=20 >>=20 >>On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Daly wrote: >>=20 >>>Sounds good. I like the idea of Storm Soldiers starting a first = political >>>then military campaign against some race or other...be it the Aen= gmor >>>Shadowelves, the displaced Alfhiem elves, or the gnomes without a= country. >>=20 >>Well, why not? But I dont think they would do it if it didn't serve= any >>higher purpose. Ie, Hitlers anti-jew propaganda did help unite the = Germans >>( and other people feeling German) >>=20 >=20 >the "explanation" for Nazi anti-semitism is an old and contested issu= e >for political scientists (like me) and other historical explainers. One way of looking at it is to say that Hitler actually did imagine J= ews >to be his enemy, and that he was not cynically manipulating popular opinion for some other purpose - he was really that hateful. This se= ems >pretty reasonable given that he wrote Mein Kampf long before he had a= ny >actual political power - but it doesn't explain the way that his mess= ages >resonated with so many Germans. On the other hand, saying that propa= ganda >is just that and only exists to serve a "higher purpose" is to say th= at >the Nazis were actually rational ... and I think that's kind of ridiculous, actually. I tend to think that most cultures founded upo= n >racial or ethnic distinctions (including my own) are potentially susceptible to Nazi-like movements, and that the complex psychologica= l, >sociological, economic, and political process by which that happens i= s not >something that can be quickly or easily understood. I didnt know Hitler personally (and Im not too sorry about that) so its hard for me to guess what exactly he was thinking, but while his motivations may have been solely his hate, others working with him seem= ed to use that to unite his followers. While it may be silly to say that the nazis were completely rational, I would think it would be equally silly to say that they were completely irrational. Probably somewhere in between, just like us..(scary isnt it= ?) =20 >Of course, D&D is a game and Mystara is a fantasy world, not a social science research project. How Storm Soldiers think and act depends o= n how >we want them to ... let's face it, they're our pet Nazis. I was just pointing out that we can fire up our imaginations in interesting ways= by >thinking about this. So I guess that's what we're doing. Maybe we c= ould >create a set of adventures around the question "why the hell do the S= torm >Soldiers want to persecute Shadow Elves, anyway?" The PC's could eve= n be >some sort of anti-fascist "activists". Sure, why not? But I think it would be more interesting if the leaders = of the SS had some rational reason for doing this. I like totally rational= , intelligent, and completely evil villains, dont you? >>Who would the Storm Soldiers campaign against? I doubt that it'd be= the >>Shadowelves, since they are so far away. It could be demihumans in = general >>though..or does that sound a bit too much like Krynn in the days of= Istar? >Perhaps some group that is perceived as internationally influential a= nd >prestigious but lacks real political power (like real world Jews befo= re >Hitler) ... a good example I mentioned earlier was Gnomes. Shadow El= ves >don't work because they actually do have a state (therefore are more = like >post-WWII Israelis), although the "threat of assimilation" when Shado= w >Elves infiltrate Alfheim is an interesting metaphor for race-purity notions. >As for the >>>extermination...one could argue that clerics in Glantri (pre-WotI= ) are a >>>good example.=20 >the anti-clerical laws in Glantri always seemed to me to be a referen= ce to >the Soviet bloc ... which brings up a good point, does communism exis= t on >Mystara in any form? how exactly do Mystarans understand their polit= ical >and economic systems? do different guilds riot in the streets agains= t >competitors (as happened in Machiavelli's Italy)? The global economy (such as it is) of Mystara might be an even better source of adventur= es >than the usual feudal politics of D&D games. I think communism(or perhaps marxism is a better word) is too closely linked to the class systems of last century to have been developed in a medeival world. A totalitarian system could possibly have been develope= d from the monarchies through the use of magic though. (A totalitarian system means you haver to control people to a greater extent than in a monarchy) I have on the other hand been toying with the idea of having the Federation bein communists. Communists in the good meaning of the word,= as in work as much as you can and receive what you need. Some people I know had read some specualtions about this being the fact= in the Star Trek universe so I figured it could be a nice touch. >>Also, you could see the Shadowelves as the nazis, fighting for Lebensraum....... >I thought the more direct analogy was to the Israelis (and I am not a= fraid >to make the controversial statement that the Israeli's settlements in= the >West Bank and in fact in Israel itself aren't anything different from "Lebensraum" thinking). could be.... >>>The Glantrians feared Clerical power (similar but not the same) a= nd so >>>exterminated them from their nation. They are not terribly aggre= ssive >>>toward other countries, though factions would wish them to be, th= erefore the >>>analogy is sticky at some points. And some may argue that Cleric= s are not a >>>race like Jews. >=20 >see my above comments about the Soviets ... though again the analogy = is >only what we make of it. I guess a good way of conceiving of this discussion is to say that we are discussing which metaphors make sens= e to >us to we can get our imaginations in sync (as opposed to arguing over whether the metaphors are "right" or not). =20 >>>Actually this fits very well IMO. Both are religious groups with ssstrange(?) customs and practices. Ofcourse I dont think the anti-cl= eric >>politics have much appeal to the people of Glantri though. ==20 >well what exactly do the people of Glantri believe? Is Rad-worship j= ust a >a kind of forced religion that Etienne has created ham-handedly (like Stalin's Cult of Personality)? Well it could be that people in the medeival world believe exactly what the authoroties tell them. This could be the case of farmers and the su= ch though mercheants who have seen customs in several countries could have more reason to think differently.. >>>Well, of course this is true. But the Jewish people are bound by= both >race > > and faith. Probably the last of its kind... =20 >Oof! I realize that this is indeed the way many Jews see themselves = (and >are seen by just about everybody else) but it still freaks me out. Especially since the notion of a race is so much of a modern notion .= .. >Jews were not seen as a race at all during the inquisition, for insta= nce. >Anyway I could probably start going off here and I don't have time to= do >the topic justice. If anybody's interested Hannah Arendt's The Origi= ns of >Totalitarianism is a great book on the subject. But this is getting = less >and less Mystara-relevant. Yes. every time someone uses the word race someone should be ready with the warning flag. Its a silly word with loads of different meanings. Th= e majority of those meanings are outright silly IMO >>Hmmm... >>I think I'll choose not to comment on this, since it could result i= n a >>political debate, with litle to do on this mailinglist. ==20 >as you say. Hope Leroy's not going to kick us off anytime soon... no flames please bye, H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, January 7 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - War of Wrath in 1009 AC Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Shattenalfen [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Detect Good/Evil [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Elven Lifespans Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) [MYSTARA] - WotI vs Immortal rules [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara Re: [Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) [MYSTARA] - War of the Elves; Dates ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:59:26 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - War of Wrath in 1009 AC On 5 Jan 1998 13:37:06 -0300 3@giga.com.ar writes: >What is the War of Wrath in 1009 AC? I believe you are talking about the Great War (AC 1005-1009). Basicaly, there's a schism among the Immortals over Rad's studies of the Radience, and Alphatia and Thyatis go to war as a result. >There is a connection with the Wrath or the Inmortals? In WotI, the Great War is detailed. >What is Wrath of the Inmortals? A boxed set replacing the old Immortals rules, it also contains "The Immortal's Fury" campaign, in which the PCs do a lot of mucking about during the Great War, and a Ac 1004 - 1009 timeline. >Jonathan Leibiusky >edu@giga.com.ar Aaron Nowack "Ooops." -PC after damaging the Doomsday device *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:10:29 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) >>alfheim/aengmor since last summer). anyway sounds like you guys have some pretty interesting metaphors working out. what else? >Most of the work has been done in private e-mail. Next almanac will be full of unexpected events and will certainly rise many questions and comments from you all. >-------------- >Fabrizio Paoli >brizio@lunet.it >Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 -------------- fair enough I suppose - but did the list actually take a vote that you guys would do the almanacs in private? I don't want to step on anybody's toes if this has already been decided, but if it's possible I too would like to be involved in/have input into the run of events in future almanacs. For one thing, I have been thinking about ways to manipulate my own 16 year (real time) Mystara campaign into the widely disparate canon timeline that has been published since about 1985 or so ... yeah yeah kind of difficult, but one thing I thought I could do is put much of the campaign timeline that I have into the FUTURE of Mystara, starting about 1015 or so and running till about 1050 ... this would work well because as much as the politics of Mystara have been changed around by WotI, most of the same countries are around except for Alphatia (which wasn't included in the original KW my campaign is based on), and Sind which has been conquered by Hule (which is good because in my campaign X4-X5-X10 figured prominently). Anyway it would just be interesting to take a sequence of events that I already have mostly worked out and then drop them in year by year into the timeline. But since no one DM can have everything his way for canon, I will try to limit it to bare minimal details. What do you think about this? Matt *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:28:28 -0700 From: "Patrick" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Shattenalfen Since the subject of this thread on elven lifespans is Shattenalfen, it occurred to me that Shattenalfheim has experienced massive population growth since the tiny group of Shadow Elves first discovered the Hollow World. Even presuming that they benefit unfairly from their neighbors inability to change (thanx to the spell of preservation), this fact alone makes me believe that there must be great cultural variation from one race of elves to another. Similarly, the elves of Graakhalia managed to increase in number for years despite the many hardships and incredibly high casualties they experienced. Birth rates are probably particularly high among the quickly-increasing elves of Shattenalfheim, the suicide-prone Blacklore, and the rugged Icevale elves. Moderate birth rates probably are common among the more "humanized" clans of Belcadiz, the Savage Coast, and many Alphatian clans. Low birthrates seem to be the rule among the "high" elves of Mystara, those in Alfheim and Erewan, as well as the Gentle Folk. Most other groups of elves probably are somewhere in the middle, but I do not believe the elven race is naturally declining in number. Through war, many of the more "civilized" elven groups may lose a great part of their population, but this is very different from decline or stasis from low birth rates. Patrick *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:04:46 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Detect Good/Evil mar0173@ibm.net pontificated: >I knew somebody would ask it. Personally, I feel wizards shouldn't have access to the spells as they require a moral judgement, unless they get some kind of connection to the Immortals. Perhaps the spell uses the wizard's own moral standard as a comprason. If the target's moral is similar to the wizard's, the spell returns a good feeling, if the target's moral is very different from the wizard's, the spell returns a bad feeling. Or perhaps the spell is depended upon the moral standard of the original creator of the spell, which might creat confusion if the castor was not aware of it. For example, if the spell originated from the elves, someone who hunts animal for fun might register as evil by the spell, even though no human would consider him as evil. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | UVa, Material Science Dept. |"Earth is too small and fragile a basket IPM Lab | for Mankind to keep all his eggs in." (804) 984-3789 | -- Robert Anson Heinlein *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:10:40 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Elven Lifespans As far as I know this one didnt get through so I'm posting it again. Sorry if youre getting it twice.. Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Inconu wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-03 21:25:15 EST, you write: ><< >According to the Elves of Alfheim(The Gazetteer, I havent actually spoken >with any of the elves themselves) elves usually adventure between ages 25 >and 100. 25 equals about 16 in human years, 100 equals about 25. >> >was there a table comparing age categories in the gaz? and if it went further >than 100 = 25, could you post the rest? Sorry, there was no table. What I've said above is pretty much it. Elves above 100 years have usually chosen their path and are thus usually not adventurers. Elves are expected to live til about the age of 600-1000. (Information below in quotation marks are direct quotes from the text. All the info is from the Alfheim Gaz) I've had a look at some NPCs from the Alfheim Gaz though: Beasthunter, Clanmaster of the Longrunners is 650 and noted to be the youngest of all the clanmasters Brendian Erendyl, Clanmaster of Clan Erendyl is referred to as an old elf, aged 800. Brightsword, captain of the Guard of Clan Red Arrow is referred to as quite young, a mere 450 years. "Carlisan, Counselor to the Clanmaster Chossum came to Chossum Clan quite young (about 35 years old)" Starwatcher: His hair is prematurely white ("He is only 700 years old") Taragin Oakbranch Guardian of Alheim Town and Counselor of Clan Grunalf "He still looks quite youthful, though the problems of his position have given him more care wrinkles than are commonly seen on an elf of his age (about 650)" Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:11:42 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) I'm posting this again as I didnt get it back the first time i posted i= t.. On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, [iso-8859-1] H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >>I think it is time that I put on my false beard and my fatherly voi= ce and >>warn you all not to overdo this jews are shadowelves metaphor. >sounds to me like somebody is developing a Yahweh complex ... just kidding, I'm not out to start a fight (but flame back if you like, I = can >take it). >:) As they say: On the internet noone knows who is the God..or was that do= g? :) >>Though in many ways it makes sense, I still feel that those damn Shadowelves have no buisness in Alfheim. That has nothing to do wit= h my >>opinion on the Israel conflict, though. >hm? i thought the connection between RW and Mystara WAS the point. Ah yes. My point was that while I find this interesting, forging these links too strong might actually restrict the way we think about Mystara= s peoples. If we establish that Shadowelves _are_ jews then could the Shadowelves do anything the jews wouldn't do? >>I'm not quite done yet: >>=20 >>=20 >>On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Daly wrote: >>=20 >>>Sounds good. I like the idea of Storm Soldiers starting a first = political >>>then military campaign against some race or other...be it the Aen= gmor >>>Shadowelves, the displaced Alfhiem elves, or the gnomes without a= country. >>=20 >>Well, why not? But I dont think they would do it if it didn't serve= any >>higher purpose. Ie, Hitlers anti-jew propaganda did help unite the = Germans >>( and other people feeling German) >>=20 >=20 >the "explanation" for Nazi anti-semitism is an old and contested issu= e >for political scientists (like me) and other historical explainers. One way of looking at it is to say that Hitler actually did imagine J= ews >to be his enemy, and that he was not cynically manipulating popular opinion for some other purpose - he was really that hateful. This se= ems >pretty reasonable given that he wrote Mein Kampf long before he had a= ny >actual political power - but it doesn't explain the way that his mess= ages >resonated with so many Germans. On the other hand, saying that propa= ganda >is just that and only exists to serve a "higher purpose" is to say th= at >the Nazis were actually rational ... and I think that's kind of ridiculous, actually. I tend to think that most cultures founded upo= n >racial or ethnic distinctions (including my own) are potentially susceptible to Nazi-like movements, and that the complex psychologica= l, >sociological, economic, and political process by which that happens i= s not >something that can be quickly or easily understood. I didnt know Hitler personally (and Im not too sorry about that) so its hard for me to guess what exactly he was thinking, but while his motivations may have been solely his hate, others working with him seem= ed to use that to unite his followers. While it may be silly to say that the nazis were completely rational, I would think it would be equally silly to say that they were completely irrational. Probably somewhere in between, just like us..(scary isnt it= ?) =20 >Of course, D&D is a game and Mystara is a fantasy world, not a social science research project. How Storm Soldiers think and act depends o= n how >we want them to ... let's face it, they're our pet Nazis. I was just pointing out that we can fire up our imaginations in interesting ways= by >thinking about this. So I guess that's what we're doing. Maybe we c= ould >create a set of adventures around the question "why the hell do the S= torm >Soldiers want to persecute Shadow Elves, anyway?" The PC's could eve= n be >some sort of anti-fascist "activists". Sure, why not? But I think it would be more interesting if the leaders = of the SS had some rational reason for doing this. I like totally rational= , intelligent, and completely evil villains, dont you? >>Who would the Storm Soldiers campaign against? I doubt that it'd be= the >>Shadowelves, since they are so far away. It could be demihumans in = general >>though..or does that sound a bit too much like Krynn in the days of= Istar? >Perhaps some group that is perceived as internationally influential a= nd >prestigious but lacks real political power (like real world Jews befo= re >Hitler) ... a good example I mentioned earlier was Gnomes. Shadow El= ves >don't work because they actually do have a state (therefore are more = like >post-WWII Israelis), although the "threat of assimilation" when Shado= w >Elves infiltrate Alfheim is an interesting metaphor for race-purity notions. >As for the >>>extermination...one could argue that clerics in Glantri (pre-WotI= ) are a >>>good example.=20 >the anti-clerical laws in Glantri always seemed to me to be a referen= ce to >the Soviet bloc ... which brings up a good point, does communism exis= t on >Mystara in any form? how exactly do Mystarans understand their polit= ical >and economic systems? do different guilds riot in the streets agains= t >competitors (as happened in Machiavelli's Italy)? The global economy (such as it is) of Mystara might be an even better source of adventur= es >than the usual feudal politics of D&D games. I think communism(or perhaps marxism is a better word) is too closely linked to the class systems of last century to have been developed in a medeival world. A totalitarian system could possibly have been develope= d from the monarchies through the use of magic though. (A totalitarian system means you haver to control people to a greater extent than in a monarchy) I have on the other hand been toying with the idea of having the Federation bein communists. Communists in the good meaning of the word,= as in work as much as you can and receive what you need. Some people I know had read some specualtions about this being the fact= in the Star Trek universe so I figured it could be a nice touch. >>Also, you could see the Shadowelves as the nazis, fighting for Lebensraum....... >I thought the more direct analogy was to the Israelis (and I am not a=fraid >to make the controversial statement that the Israeli's settlements in= the >West Bank and in fact in Israel itself aren't anything different from "Lebensraum" thinking). could be.... >>>The Glantrians feared Clerical power (similar but not the same) a= nd so >>>exterminated them from their nation. They are not terribly aggre= ssive >>>toward other countries, though factions would wish them to be, th= erefore the >>>analogy is sticky at some points. And some may argue that Cleric= s are not a >>>race like Jews. >=20 >see my above comments about the Soviets ... though again the analogy = is >only what we make of it. I guess a good way of conceiving of this discussion is to say that we are discussing which metaphors make sens= e to >us to we can get our imaginations in sync (as opposed to arguing over whether the metaphors are "right" or not). =20 >>>Actually this fits very well IMO. Both are religious groups with >>strange(?) customs and practices. Ofcourse I dont think the anti-cl= eric >>politics have much appeal to the people of Glantri though. >=20 >well what exactly do the people of Glantri believe? Is Rad-worship j= ust a >a kind of forced religion that Etienne has created ham-handedly (like Stalin's Cult of Personality)? Well it could be that people in the medeival world believe exactly what the authoroties tell them. This could be the case of farmers and the su= ch though mercheants who have seen customs in several countries could have more reason to think differently.. >>>Well, of course this is true. But the Jewish people are bound by= both >race > > and faith. Probably the last of its kind... =20 >Oof! I realize that this is indeed the way many Jews see themselves = (and >are seen by just about everybody else) but it still freaks me out. Especially since the notion of a race is so much of a modern notion .= .. >Jews were not seen as a race at all during the inquisition, for insta= nce. >Anyway I could probably start going off here and I don't have time to= do >the topic justice. If anybody's interested Hannah Arendt's The Origi= ns of >Totalitarianism is a great book on the subject. But this is getting = less >and less Mystara-relevant. Yes. every time someone uses the word race someone should be ready with the warning flag. Its a silly word with loads of different meanings. Th= e majority of those meanings are outright silly IMO >>Hmmm... >>I think I'll choose not to comment on this, since it could result i= n a >>political debate, with litle to do on this mailinglist. >=20 >as you say. Hope Leroy's not going to kick us off anytime soon... no flames please bye, H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:36:31 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) At 00.43 07/01/98 GMT, you wrote: >Good. I realize I am a little late to contribute this year, but let me know when you start disccussing the events for the next one. I do have a couple of ideas I'd like to propose then. 1015 Almanac should be out in a couple of months and then we'll start discussing the events for next one. I would like to have more feedback from the list, not just "Great Work" or "Cool!", but ideas and comments on specific events like "This is great because...", or "I didn't like this event at all because so and so..." >Basically it is just a question of >language, but any society or group can find a philosophical reason why they are the right ones, why they are doing what is good. It reminds me of an e-mail wargame I'm playing to right now. First I allied with a group who considered itself the "Good guys", then I sided with my former enemies who considered them the "good ones" too... >I can check the dates. I still have the votes saved in my university account and I can check the dates there. I'll try to connect there later and let you know the time. Good. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:36:51 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) At 18.07 06/01/98 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >cool. let's move on this one, if we can get the major almanac players (that means you Fabrizio and Herve) to agree. Don't forget Marco Dalmonte, he's in charge of Wendar elves and thus also Alfheim elves and he has strange ideas... >Yes this is important, and the issue of economic interest is a good point (no oil means different politics) ... what about the Selenica Caravan route? this seems to be the key strategic resource in the region, especially in times when the Streel River trade is insecure (because of Ethengar militarism) ... everything coming from the Northern reaches, Rockhome, and Ylaruam has to move over the mountains from Makistan to Darokin. Either or both groups of elves could threaten this caravan trade. After the events described in last year almanac (raising of Oenkmar) the trade route through Corunglain and the former Broken Lands is practically closed. I'm working on the economic section for the almanac right now and there're no good news for Corunglain and local traders. Your ideas about elves threatening the Selenica caravan route is good. I was also thinking to Alfheim Avengers acting as terrorist at major events, like the World Games or some Coliseum games in Thyatis City. I would like to explain my ideas in more detail, but then I would have to spoil some of this year events. Anyway thanks to both of you for suggestions. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 14:43:54 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >=20 >I'm posting this again as I didnt get it back the first time i posted i= t.. >=20 >On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: =20 >>On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, [iso-8859-1] H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >=20 >>>I think it is time that I put on my false beard and my fatherly voi= ce and >>>warn you all not to overdo this jews are shadowelves metaphor. >=20 >>sounds to me like somebody is developing a Yahweh complex ... just kidding, I'm not out to start a fight (but flame back if you like, I = can >>take it). >=20 >>:) >=20 >As they say: On the internet noone knows who is the God..or was that do= g? >:) I believe in the "false beard" comment the writer was taking on the role of a Jewish rabbi--not God. But what exactly do you mean with your "dog" comment? >I didnt know Hitler personally (and Im not too sorry about that) so its hard for me to guess what exactly he was thinking, but while his motivations may have been solely his hate, others working with him seem= ed >to use that to unite his followers. >=20 >While it may be silly to say that the nazis were completely rational, I would think it would be equally silly to say that they were completely irrational. Probably somewhere in between, just like us..(scary isnt it= ?) I definately agree with the comments regarding the Nazis being rational. It is too easy to brush a maniac (I am aware of my self contradictory word usage) like Hitler off as being irrational. It is much more scary (in terms of creating villains for our fantasy worlds) to think of such a world leader as a brilliant, though thoroughly evil, man. >I have on the other hand been toying with the idea of having the Federation bein communists. Communists in the good meaning of the word,= as >in work as much as you can and receive what you need. Some people I know had read some specualtions about this being the fact= in >the Star Trek universe so I figured it could be a nice touch. And what race or country (in Mystara) are you proposing would have such noble motives as to each work for the good of his fellow man and not for his own gain? >=20 >***********************************************************************= **** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the = line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 20:21:42 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: [MYSTARA] - WotI vs Immortal rules I have heard many references to the Wrath of the Immortals box set = replacing tbe Gold Box Set #5 called the Immortal Rules? How does it = replace it? Is not WotI more campaign/mystara specific? Interested to know if I should get WotI... __________________________________ | |\ | Chris Billows | | | Check out my Gaming Memoirs | | | www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/ | | |_________________________________| | \_________________________________\| *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:08:03 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara Well, I will give my opinion about this topic, quite nice to me, because, last year I got my MA in Jewish and Middle Eastern Studies: To me, the most Jewish -or Israel-like- place in Mystara is the nation of Yavdom (or is it Yavdlom?): look, prophecy has been important in its founding and it continues to be in the course of its ruling and society; it is an "exotic" place, not the kind of country you find two weeks away from Karameikos; its is menaced by a powerful empire (the Divinarchy of Hule). I am thinking, of course, about the Israel of Biblical times, oppresed by many empires and influenced by prophets, who had the power to annoint kings. I prefer to base the Mystaran nations on ancient counterparts (as it has always been done: look at Thyatis, the Milennians, Nithians...), not on nearly contemporary events, because today politics are not so easily defined in the Good-Neutral-Evil axis which works so well for an epic fantasy setting. Andres Piquer Otero *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:40:59 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) I wouldn't want to spoil events for everybody, but can I get a private peek if I ask for it? Or are you keeping it secret just on principle? just asking, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >At 18.07 06/01/98 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >>cool. let's move on this one, if we can get the major almanac players (that means you Fabrizio and Herve) to agree. >Don't forget Marco Dalmonte, he's in charge of Wendar elves and thus also Alfheim elves and he has strange ideas... >>Yes this is important, and the issue of economic interest is a good point (no oil means different politics) ... what about the Selenica Caravan route? this seems to be the key strategic resource in the region, especially in times when the Streel River trade is insecure (because of Ethengar militarism) ... everything coming from the Northern reaches, Rockhome, and Ylaruam has to move over the mountains from Makistan to Darokin. Either or both groups of elves could threaten this caravan trade. >After the events described in last year almanac (raising of Oenkmar) the trade route through Corunglain and the former Broken Lands is practically closed. >I'm working on the economic section for the almanac right now and there're no good news for Corunglain and local traders. Your ideas about elves threatening the Selenica caravan route is good. I was also thinking to Alfheim Avengers acting as terrorist at major events, like the World Games or some Coliseum games in Thyatis City. >I would like to explain my ideas in more detail, but then I would have to spoil some of this year events. >Anyway thanks to both of you for suggestions. >************** >Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com >DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:15:30 -0200 (EDT) From: Andre Martins Subject: [MYSTARA] - War of the Elves; Dates Hi, I have just checked the dates of the discussions. They started in September, 1996 and went on at least until the end of the year, with some discussion after that. I have a copy of most of it, separated in a file, so I can send it to whomever wants to see it. I'll not post it to the list as it is a huge file (+260K), but I'll send it to anyone who asks. The file should also contain the private disccussions I had first with only with Herve, so part of it is not available in the list archives. Andre Martins *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, January 8 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - A message from our Host Re: [MYSTARA] - WotI vs Immortal rules Re: [MYSTARA] - WotI vs Immortal rules Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Detect Good/Evil Re: [MYSTARA] - WotI vs Immortal rules Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] XSOLO, and the Sea of Dread Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara [none] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 17:19:42 -0500 From: Rob Miracle Subject: [MYSTARA] - A message from our Host Our most gracious host has asked that I post a message to you about MPG-Net Services. MPG-Net would like to announce the availability of a Free version of the Award winning Online Role Playing game, the Kingdom of Drakkar. Wanted to try MPG-Net but didn't want to use your credit card? Now you can, MPG-Net has created a special web browser plug in that you can download and install and play in a limited version of the game. The full game has many more areas to explore and you get all the other MPG-Net games and services. To check out that completely FREE and no obligation, go to the page: http://www.mpgn.com/webdrakkar/ And download the plug in. You will need IE or Netscape versions 3.0 or later to use this plug in. All you need to do after installing the plugin to play, is to return to the page and put in an email address for us to email you your account number and password and within minutes you will be playing the most successful online, massive multi-player, persistent world game on the Internet. Admin note: The list is still somewhat backed up. I am getting a lot of deferred sites and it is backing things up. I am trying to get more resources to fix the problem. Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 17:12:35 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - WotI vs Immortal rules If you can find it, get it. It does have rules that replace the gold box but it also has an adventure with huge, Mystara-shaking events in it. If you are interested in keeping up with canon (a bit of a moot point now), and even with developments from this list, WotI is very useful. I know that there were a couple of little rules changes for running immortals that I didn't agree with, but it is probably one of my most used box sets. Ray Chris Paul Billows wrote: >I have heard many references to the Wrath of the Immortals box set replacing tbe Gold Box Set #5 called the Immortal Rules? How does it replace it? Is not WotI more campaign/mystara specific? >Interested to know if I should get WotI... __________________________________ >| |\ >| Chris Billows | | >| Check out my Gaming Memoirs | | >| www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/ | | >|_________________________________| | >\_________________________________\| >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 18:03:43 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - WotI vs Immortal rules At 08:21 PM 1/7/98 GMT, you wrote: >I have heard many references to the Wrath of the Immortals box set replacing tbe Gold Box Set #5 called the Immortal Rules? How does it replace it? In many ways I like the old Immortals set better. It has some rather complex descriptions of planes and multi dimensions. Because of this complexity though, the powers-that-be decided to write a new version (and one that would fit in better with Mystara as it had become) that would appeal to less experienced players. Is not WotI more campaign/mystara specific? Sort of. The old set does explain some interesting things regarding the world map. It says that the world depicted is Pangea (You know, the first three continents that were born from the seperation of Gondwanaland) and that the events played out in D&D were set several millenia before our (as in OUR) time on an earth that was either another reality or our own. When Mystara became Mystara, under Bruce Heard's very capable hands, this idea was done away with. >Interested to know if I should get WotI... __________________________________ >| |\ >| Chris Billows | | >| Check out my Gaming Memoirs | | >| www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/ | | >|_________________________________| | >\_________________________________\| >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:30:10 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara jdaly rambled (jdaly@friend.ly.net): >H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >>As they say: On the internet noone knows who is the God..or was that = dog? >>:) >=20 >I believe in the "false beard" comment the writer was taking on the rol= e >of a Jewish rabbi--not God. >=20 >But what exactly do you mean with your "dog" comment? "On the internet, noone knows you are a dog" [Image: picture of dog sitting at a keyboard] Back to the topic: Is anybody else somewhat disturbed by the degree of cross-referencing between Mystara and the real world being discussed on this list? Obviously Mystaran countries are based fairly heavily on real world countries, wrt culture. I find this good for play, because I can say "oh, that country is similiar to x" and the players immediately have a fair idea. However, too much crossover can be just corny. It's difficult to take a setting seriously when it seems to be an imitation of the real world. How many people would take a famous bard called Elvis seriously? I remember a campaign where the Kith (drow equivalent) deity was called Keith. None of the players could take it seriously. I told the DM that even if Keith the Kith god appeared before us, I'd just laugh. It's fine having symbolic representations (like Shadow Elves=3DJews), but when it's carried too far, I feel that Mystara starts to lose it's lustre, it's appeal of a fantasy world. I might as well be playing a campaign set in the real world. Sorry for the rant, but it's bugged me for a while. - --=20 Glenn Butcher | knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au "One of the things that hamper Linux's climb to world domination is the shortage of bad Computer Role Playing Games, or CRaPGs. No operating system can be considered respectable without one." (Brian O'Donnell , on c.o.l.announce) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 03:33:05 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Detect Good/Evil As an additional complication, the version of "Detect Evil" given in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia has no reversed "Detect Good" form. What "Detect Evil" detects is not alignment but hostility towards the caster. Thus, to some Clerics a Paladin could radiate "Evil". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 04:33:16 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - WotI vs Immortal rules In a message dated 98-01-07 17:46:54 EST, cpb@gatewest.net writes: >I have heard many references to the Wrath of the Immortals box set replacing tbe Gold Box Set #5 called the Immortal Rules? How does it replace it? Is not >WotI more campaign/mystara specific? _Wrath of the Immortals_ replaces the _Immortal Rules_ in the sense that it provides a different set of rules for Immortal characters that most players regard as superseding the earlier rules -- certainly the later rules do seem to be a bit simpler and more playable. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:28:09 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, jdaly wrote: >H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >=20 >I believe in the "false beard" comment the writer was taking on the r= ole >of a Jewish rabbi--not God. >=20 >But what exactly do you mean with your "dog" comment? I believe Glenn Butcher Knight explained that as well as I could hope t= o :) >>I have on the other hand been toying with the idea of having the Federation bein communists. Communists in the good meaning of the w= ord, as >>in work as much as you can and receive what you need. Some people I know had read some specualtions about this being the = fact in >>the Star Trek universe so I figured it could be a nice touch. >=20 >And what race or country (in Mystara) are you proposing would have su= ch >noble motives as to each work for the good of his fellow man and not = for >his own gain? The Federation that I was referring to is the intergalactic federation = of green skinned men living in the galaxy's core . The civilization the FS= S Beagle came from. Sincerely H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:29:53 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara Glenn Butcher wrote: >=20 >jdaly rambled (jdaly@friend.ly.net): >>H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >=20 >>>As they say: On the internet noone knows who is the God..or was tha= t dog? >>>:) >>I believe in the "false beard" comment the writer was taking on the r= ole >>of a Jewish rabbi--not God. >>But what exactly do you mean with your "dog" comment? >=20 >"On the internet, noone knows you are a dog" =20 >[Image: picture of dog sitting at a keyboard] Thanks for the reference information. I hate it when a joke is told that I just don't get. In this case I was totally unaware of the reference. >=20 >Back to the topic: >=20 >Is anybody else somewhat disturbed by the degree of cross-referencing between Mystara and the real world being discussed on this list? Mm...no, at least I don't. >=20 >Obviously Mystaran countries are based fairly heavily on real world countries, wrt culture. I find this good for play, because I can say "o= h, >that country is similiar to x" and the players immediately have a fair idea. Yeah, that is useful. In fact back in the days of X1 The Isle of Dread, when that module was the sole source for our campaign world, those paragraph descriptions of each country were all we had to go on. You know, "Thyatis is like the Byzantium Empire" Not knowing really what the Byzantium Empire was like, I would say this with authority and my players would just nod their heads not wanting to appear ignorant. >=20 >However, too much crossover can be just corny. It's difficult to take a setting seriously when it seems to be an imitation of the real world. H= ow >many people would take a famous bard called Elvis seriously?=20 But the elf named Elvis example is just plain silly. Silliness even in moderation can be bad for a campaign. So far I have never really gotten it to work well in my campaigns. Although I have a friend who runs a campaign with a regular bounty hunter/villain named Terrance Two-Swords. He is a bit silly and arrogant at the same time. Makes for a good villain. I think mine were always too overdone. I remember a >campaign where the Kith (drow equivalent) deity was called Keith. None =of >the players could take it seriously. I told the DM that even if Keith t= he >Kith god appeared before us, I'd just laugh. I could be misinterpreting your description but it sounds to me like the problem here is one of the PLAYERS taking a word and applying it to real life. That can be disruptive but I do not see it as the DM's fault unless he meant for the relating of Kith=3DKeith to have that effect. >=20 >It's fine having symbolic representations (like Shadow Elves=3DJews), b= ut >when it's carried too far, I feel that Mystara starts to lose it's lustre, it's appeal of a fantasy world. I might as well be playing a campaign set in the real world. But I have to point out that this is your preference. I agree with your preference to some extent. Though there are certain political movements in my campaign (for example a politician in Darokin: "A simple dagger for personal defense is one thing, but two handed swords were crafted with one sole purpose in mind. Such life taking weapons have real effects on real people. If you elect me I will see to it that no children get their hands on such weapons! The government must take a more responsible role in personal weapon control.") Such things, if done in moderation, lead to experiences which are easier for some people to roleplay because they are closer to their personal experiences. I can expand on this if you really want me too... >=20 >Sorry for the rant, but it's bugged me for a while. Hey no problem. >=20 >-- >Glenn Butcher | knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au "One of the things that hamper Linux's climb to world domination is the shortage of bad Computer Role Playing Games, or CRaPGs. No operating system can be considered respectable without one." (Brian O'Donnell , on c.o.l.announce) ***********************************************************************= **** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the = line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 13:10:36 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) >=20 >The Federation that I was referring to is the intergalactic federation = of >green skinned men living in the galaxy's core . The civilization the FS= S >Beagle came from. I believe THAT federation was a bureacracy. Remember the references in DA1 to the size of the government? I don't have it right in front of me but it described a rather huge organization that had no trouble missing one expedition who's sole purpose was mapping unknown quadrants of the galaxy. Seems to me it would be more like a loose organization of planetary governments weakly tied together by a huge central government bogged down in alot of paper. A visit to such a place by our fantasy characters could have some fairly humorous results... >=20 >Sincerely >H=E5vard >=20 >Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves >Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: >or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, >http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Car= oll >=20 >***********************************************************************= **** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the = line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:11:14 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] XSOLO, and the Sea of Dread Hi Daniel, About a year and a half ago you posted to the list a map of the sea of dread region that contained a reference to the Lost Temple of Araknee on Spider Island. I just was going through my old files and found this again ... I am a big fan of the Aranea and I can only assume that this ancient ruin was left by that race. Do you have any more information on this developed? I have been trying for some time to figure out the whole history of the Aranea and the Phanatons (which are of course linked) ... it seems like they started out in the far west in Herath on the savage coast, but then Arachne Prime, goddess of the race, lives under the Isle of Dawn (M5) and protects a gate to the world of Thorne, which is the original homeland of both races. So they must have come through this gate first before they moved to Herath/Jibaru. One theory I have is that they came through the gate on the Isle of Dawn but then went through a more local Mystaran gate to the Savage Coast/Yazak region (I read some webpage that had the prehistory of the western region, I can't remember whose it was), where they developed for a while before finally spreading across the planet and finding their way back to the Isle of Dawn and their goddess ... they must have travelled across and built temples in the Sea of Dread during this time, and left scattered Aranea and Phanaton tribes in the Thanegioth Islands and Yavdlom. This was probably during the time of the Taymoran empire, or perhaps between its collapse and the rise of the Nithians. Lizard men may also have been involved in these migrations, and also Caymen, which seem to have been bred from lizard men by the Herathians ... Caymen are now thought to live only in the Bayou, but way back in AC1 (I think - the DM's screen for OD&D from the mid-80's) they were located in what was probably either the Halag or possibly Malpheggi swamps. What if Aranea from Herath were seriously involved in the commerce and politics of the Sea of Dread region during the Taymoran period and left their mark in various places, as well as introducing Phanatons and Lizardkin to the region? Anyway the Red Steel stuff is not very clear on exactly how long the Aranea have been around on the Savage Coast ... and anyway it implies that they evolved there originally which is flat out bullshit when compared to the much cooler info from M5, which says they evolved from planar spiders on Thorne and travelled through a gate into Mystara on the Isle of Dawn. Having them jump from there to the west is not a problem, considering the already established existence of magic points/ transport gates in the land of Aran on the IoD and in the Yazak/Savage Coast region. (It seems to me someone had the land of Aran linked to Haven also, which could complicate matters further ... can Aranea be living in Karameikos secretly?) I already have some suspicions on these questions but I wanted to know what else you have developed. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:13:02 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara At 09.30 08/01/98 +0800, you wrote: >Is anybody else somewhat disturbed by the degree of cross-referencing between Mystara and the real world being discussed on this list? >It's fine having symbolic representations (like Shadow Elves=Jews), but when it's carried too far, I feel that Mystara starts to lose it's lustre, it's appeal of a fantasy world. I might as well be playing a campaign set in the real world. I agree completely. The Shadow Elves=Jews representation is nice, but describing the Shadow Elves-Alfheim Elves relationship on the lines of the middle east peace process is probably too much, though this gave birth to some nice ideas. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 18:32:11 -0500 From: Daly Subject: [none] In a message dated 00-01-07 AC, Kylanderen wrote: < You asked me for information regarding our paladinnic orders here in Alphatia. < Well there is only one though there are several branches of that one. < The Paladins of the Dawn Branch are very serious minded group which is in < charge of our western frontier along the Isle of Dawn. You see, the isle is a < large body of land which is constantly being contested between the empires of < Alphatia and Thyatis. They are led by the able Morokaran who it is said < wields a greatsword and wears a magical armband. I have not yet met him. < The Paladins of the Sun are situated on the central continent of Alphatia. < Though they have an important job being so close to the capital, the fortress < there is not considered the most important or strategic. The Alphatian navy < is so strong as to make their military presence almost meaningless. However < it is terribly important to have representatives of our order there to remind < the mages that they are not the only ones who can cast spells and to give the < warriors someone to look up to and believe in. Many of our recruits come from < what some would call "the oppressed" of that continent. < The Colonial Branch is often overlooked but it is one of the most important. < They administer to the colonies and outlying islands including the Jennite < Holdings and the Isle of Gaity. They have a main fortress here on the < continent of Belisaria but they rarely travel their en masse. Instead they < tend to make pilgrimages individually to renew their commitment to the church. < Looking over the Colonial Branch's oft empty fortress and maintaining their < own here at Spearpoint is the Spearpoint Branch. Our job is more active than < The Paladins of the Sun as we are to make sure that no major wars break out < between the kings of Belisaria. The kings of Belisaria as well as the people < tend to look with irritation on any imperial involvement in their affairs and < so we see it as our patriotic duty, as well as our duty to the immortals, to < see that peace reigns here on Belisaria. We are careful not to be heavy < handed though. Many young men seeking a life of adventure and escape from the < typical boredom of Belisaria join our branch. We are considered newcomers < even though we have been here only one century shorter than the other < inhabitants. The church originally came here to establish a stronghold away < from the central authority of the empire so as to have a stronger voice at < the capital. This may sound a little odd but it is true. Perhaps in a later < These are the paladinnic orders of Alphatia. Each one has followers of individual immortals or the entire pantheon as a whole. I understand the Known World may do it a little differently. > < Yours, > < Kylanderen, Paladin of Alphatia > < Btw, I speculate that your people are descended of Blackmoor? I base this on your geographic location. Any chance I am correct? > To Kylanderen, a noble fellow though a little misguided, I find your references to "the known world" to be somewhat amusing. Until several months ago I and my people had never heard of you. Therefore to us, we are the known world and you are a strange foreign power. Our seclusion is really no mystery as we are a small kingdom surrounded on all sides by savages, barbarians and pirates. We have always figured that if more of the same is all we can expect, then why explore any further? Besides, as the ruins of beloved Mithros can attest, we must be ever on our guard against incursion. I have no knowledge of this Blackmoor of which you speak. Our history only goes back as far as three centuries ago when the 4 kings established a central city for the priesthood. Because faith is so important to my people, the church has been well provided for since that time. They are the educated ones who write the histories. But the histories only stretch back 300 years. Much like your own country I think, the priesthood and the especially the battle-priests stand between the kings and their wars. Little time indeed for exploration. Karas, Paladin of Tumar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, January 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 001 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] XSOLO, and the Sea of Dread Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Hitler/Communism and Mystara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:18:39 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) >>While it may be silly to say that the nazis were completely rational, I would think it would be equally silly to say that they were completely irrational. Probably somewhere in between, just like us..(scary isnt it?) >I definately agree with the comments regarding the Nazis being rational. It is too easy to brush a maniac (I am aware of my self contradictory word usage) like Hitler off as being irrational. It is much more scary (in terms of creating villains for our fantasy worlds) to think of such a world leader as a brilliant, though thoroughly evil, man. Why do you guys always do this to me? My other life (outside of being a Mystara addict) is as a graduate student in political theory working on a dissertation on the very topic of rationality and morality in politics. I keep trying to stay on topic on the list but then you guys keep bringing up these other topics like Hitler and I keep trying with all my might to keep my mouth shut ... anyway I'll just say this and then let it go, I think (after much reading on the subject) that to ask whether Hitler was rational or not is barking up the wrong tree ... the meanings of words like rational and irrational are too tied up in the particular politics of the person using them to have any coherent or objective frame of reference, and they obscure rather than answer the real question, which is "What the hell WAS Hitler thinking?" - characterizing him as rational doesn't make sense because it implies that he knew what he was doing and anyone else in the same situation and with the same goals would have done the same thing. That makes no sense to me because Hitler clearly did not have coherent plans in many areas (but then again, have you ever tried to run an Empire singlehandedly?) - and also because (for most of us at least) it is really fucking hard to imagine what possible reasons he might have had for the things he did, which is part of what makes his actions seem so monstrous. However, it also doesn't make sense to characterize him as irrational, because that just means we have given up on trying to understand him, and that we are insisting their was no thought process that we could possibly understand behind his actions. That seems to me to be dangerous as far as understanding our world goes, because there is plenty of latent and not-so-latent fascism in ourselves and in the people around us (perhaps one reason we continue to find Hitler so fascinating) and we need to watch that or we are in trouble. Far better to try to understand our own psychology and try to relate it to Hitler's, so that we can see where the danger lies ... tricky and unpleasant, but important. Anyway I'll shut up now. >>>I have on the other hand been toying with the idea of having the >>Federation bein communists. Communists in the good meaning of the word, as in work as much as you can and receive what you need. Some people I know had read some specualtions about this being the fact in the Star Trek universe so I figured it could be a nice touch. As far as I know Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) was really interested in political and social theory (as were many science fiction writers of the time) but I don't think he was precisely a communist. One of his ideas was that incredibly sophisticated technology (such as agricultural breakthroughs or matter replicators) would make anything people needed available to them and eliminate material need, so that society could be based on something other than economic competition (this idea does come straight from Karl Marx) ... but what's interesting is that the world he presents is one in which society (or at least the society we get to see in the shows) is modelled on a military structure ... even though their mission is said to be primarily scientific. That's really interesting because there seems to be something vaguely fascist about the hierarchy and bureaucracy of Starfleet, even though we can see how benevolent they are. Very strange. >And what race or country (in Mystara) are you proposing would have such noble motives as to each work for the good of his fellow man and not for his own gain? are you one of those libertarian cynics who thinks human beings have to be either totally self-interested or totally altruistic (and is sure they are the former)? In the real world nobody falls into either of these categories ... people have personal needs and desires but they are also part of a community and they work within that community, sometimes for the common good and sometimes for self, and sometimes for both simultaneously (and sometimes for neither). There are plenty of communities on Mystara whose social structure probably involves a LOT of sharing of material resources, probably mediated by elaborate dominance hierarchies or kinship networks, but still not individualistically capitalist. In fact there is no true capitalism on Mystara ... even the most economically oriented nations (Darokin and Minrothad) have guild systems, where wealth is distributed within the guild by the guildmasters. I don't know of any reference material on Mystara that suggests there exists any stock market, or free wage labor system, nor even investment banking (I could be wrong on this last one). I would tend to agree that "true communism" in the Marxist sense is extremely unlikely to exist on Mystara, but primitive communism of various types ... tribal networks, village communes, city-state republics, etc. seems pretty plausible. What would you call the Atruaghin clans, for instance? And for that matter, what about the bloody Orcs? Matt *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 22:05:51 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] XSOLO, and the Sea of Dread Actually the Temple of Arachne is mentioned in Xsolo Latham's Gold. A pretty good solo module which details the little islands south of the main continent in the sea of dread. At 12:11 PM 1/8/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Daniel, >About a year and a half ago you posted to the list a map of the sea of dread region that contained a reference to the Lost Temple of Araknee on Spider Island. I just was going through my old files and found this again ... I am a big fan of the Aranea and I can only assume that this ancient ruin was left by that race. Do you have any more information on this developed? I have been trying for some time to figure out the whole history of the Aranea and the Phanatons (which are of course linked) ... it seems like they started out in the far west in Herath on the savage coast, but then Arachne Prime, goddess of the race, lives under the Isle of Dawn (M5) and protects a gate to the world of Thorne, which is the original homeland of both races. So they must have come through this gate first before they moved to Herath/Jibaru. One theory I have is that they came through the gate on the Isle of Dawn but then went through a more local Mystaran gate to the Savage Coast/Yazak region (I read some webpage that had the prehistory of the western region, I can't remember whose it was), where they developed for a while before finally spreading across the planet and finding their way back to the Isle of Dawn and their goddess ... they must have travelled across and built temples in the Sea of Dread during this time, and left scattered Aranea and Phanaton tribes in the Thanegioth Islands and Yavdlom. This was probably during the time of the Taymoran empire, or perhaps between its collapse and the rise of the Nithians. Lizard men may also have been involved in these migrations, and also Caymen, which seem to have been bred from lizard men by the Herathians ... Caymen are now thought to live only in the Bayou, but way back in AC1 (I think - the DM's screen for OD&D from the mid-80's) they were located in what was probably either the Halag or possibly Malpheggi swamps. What if Aranea from Herath were seriously involved in the commerce and politics of the Sea of Dread region during the Taymoran period and left their mark in various places, as well as introducing Phanatons and Lizardkin to the region? Anyway the Red Steel stuff is not very clear on exactly how long the Aranea have been around on the Savage Coast ... and anyway it implies that they evolved there originally which is flat out bullshit when compared to the much cooler info from M5, which says they evolved from planar spiders on Thorne and travelled through a gate into Mystara on the Isle of Dawn. Having them jump from there to the west is not a problem, considering the already established existence of magic points/ transport gates in the land of Aran on the IoD and in the Yazak/Savage Coast region. (It seems to me someone had the land of Aran linked to Haven also, which could complicate matters further ... can Aranea be living in Karameikos secretly?) I already have some suspicions on these questions but I wanted to know what else you have developed. >peace, >m@2 >"You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" >- said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 15:43:55 +0100 From: Deathwatch Naranek Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World At 07:03 PM 1/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >A good overall summary. But I have a question for all of you. As a loyal player of the D&D game and eventually the Mystaran campaign setting (as it was later revealed) for nearly 20 years...I have been a defender of the game and ready with an explanation of the two games' (AD&D and D&D) differences. I found the support given in the gazetteer series and Dragon magazine articles (The Voyage of the Princess Ark) to be refreshing and promising. It was with hope and trepidation mixed that I viewed the discarding of D&D and the conversion of Mystara to AD&D. >Without going into this too much, I saw the main mistake by TSR to be one of marketing. Mystara was billed as one of the oldest campaigns rich with adventure to excite the most experienced players. But the products that came out were hopelessly geared toward new players. Don't misunderstand what I say. The point of this is to say that the game was marketed in a halfway manner to two very opposed camps. Our campaign world did not stand a chance under the conditions. >Anyway, my first question is this: How many of you use the Mystara setting prior to the Wrath of the Immortals (personally I think it is more interesting in many ways because of the presence of the Empire of Alphatia. But the drama present afterward with so much death and destruction is difficult to resist.) and how many of you use the setting after those events? Why? My campaign is currently set before/during the WOTI events (players won't get involved with the adventure), cause I think that WOTI is also a good part of Mystara. (It shows what can go wrong if Immortals fight....) Before that, I had a campaign set after the WOTI events, although I didnt have a lot of information back then (only the K:KoA boxed set). Now I've aquired more stuff and I thought its nicer to have my campaign before the WOTI events, and let them pass during it. (I currently have K:KoA, G:KoM, WOTI, DOE, CoM, Top Balista, Gaz 2, Gaz 4, Gaz 9, Gaz ? (Alfheim Elves), Gaz ? (Rockhome Dwarves), AD&D Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix, Night of the Vampire and Hail the Heroes adventures, 1012 Almanac, Joshuans Almanac, Player Survival Kit) >Second question: Apparently there is a Wizard's of the Coast website which has a questionaire for old products. Supposedly if enough people vote on a product they will resurrect it. Do you think Mystara stands a chance with Wizard's of the Coast in charge? Do you think if there is a resurrection then history will repeat itself? I hope it will be revived, but I don't really count on it. Hopefully, they will publish the Gazetteers again, even if its for a short while (as long as they keep the original prizes, ofcourse...) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 08:14:01 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) >>And what race or country (in Mystara) are you proposing would have such noble motives as to each work for the good of his fellow man and not for his own gain? >are you one of those libertarian cynics who thinks human beings have to be either totally self-interested or totally altruistic (and is sure they are the former)? Well I can already see your bias... I would tend to agree that "true communism" in the >Marxist sense is extremely unlikely to exist on Mystara, This was the only point I was making. Thank you. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:50:34 EST From: Wassellj Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hitler/Communism and Mystara << >And what race or country (in Mystara) are you proposing would have such noble motives as to each work for the good of his fellow man and not for his own gain? Don't you read your Marx ? The Proleteriat do not move to Communism because of noble motives, it is a natural inevitable evolutionary progression. I had to check to make sure I was not reading correspondance from my political studies mailing lists. I am another of those Role Players who has a Masters Degree in Political Science. Is there some kind of ability to understand and imagine new fantasy nations/races/cultures and political systems that can help understand the political theories of the Real World ? The debate on facism, and now communism, is very interesting but I think that we are trying to read too much, and transfer too much to Mystara. You are trying to transfer communism into an environment without capitalism. Marx would be very disappointed with the lack of understanding of his teachings. Politics and its idealogies have to be linked to a history, and a set of particular circumstances. Mystara has a different history, and some similar circumstances. The other ideology being discussed, Facism, evolved because of certain conditions in the RW, because of the experiences of people like Mussolini and Hitler - ie Eperiences of the First World War, Opposition to Soviet Union, Unemployment in Italy, Depression and Starvation in Germany, The Treaty of Versailles, Lack of a credible political alternative. I could go, and did during my fanatastically interesting essay on 'Facism - Its emergence in Europe'. Not available in the shops unfortunately. My message is don't try and relate Mystara too closely to the Real World. Use some of our political systems as inspiration. But don't think that you can use the Real World to support your views on how a country should develop. I also fear that we will soon move into the area of making judgement on political systems. Who is going to be the first to try and put alignments on political systems and raise the issue of good and evil ? Bye the Now Jason *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #1 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, January 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 002 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Huminoid Int. (Elven Lifespan) Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor? Aghhh!! Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor? Aghhh!! Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan [MYSTARA] - Elven Lifespans Re: [MYSTARA] - War of Wrath in 1009 AC Re: [MYSTARA] - War of Wrath in 1009 AC [MYSTARA] - The Master of the Desert Nomads PBeM RE: [MYSTARA] - Hitler/Communism and Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Careful With the "Jews In Mystara" Thread... Re: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark Articles Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor? Aghhh!! Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Thyatin and Alphatian Mages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:59:04 -0800 (PST) From: Diego Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Huminoid Int. (Elven Lifespan) >I'll agree with that. My case all along was that Orcs as well as humanoids are not stupid. I agree that on average they are not up to par with a human or elven counterpart. >It's just a personal quirk of mine when I see humanoids used as a bunch a bumbling fools. Especially in their own environment (BrokenLands). IMC Orcs are worthy adversaries that can and will (if properly led) challenge the PCs. IMC I often play upon the misconceptions humans have toward humanoids. I do the same with humans and demihumans. It tends to make for a better game. In particular, it makes the PCs think things out. I agree, i think that all humanoids are good at what they do. They are tougher than the average human and have lived in treacherous places longer. But I do not think that they take well to "civilization" and "culture." They have an "evil" bent, for lack of a better word, that makes them unable to come together and work unless there is a powerful leader, and even then the fact that all of the things that they are doing is so new to them makes them willing to drop it when the leader dies. All humanoids are so wrapped up with survival that they do noty have the leisure nor the inclination to make art or liturature. Humanoids are very dangerous when met in the wilderness though and should give PC a pause. They may not be very good if asked to debate and not think in purley terms of survival. Humanoids are out of their environment in cities however. There nature against order is too strong, unless their need for survival kicks in as is the case with the ex-orcs of Alfheim. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:37:37 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor? Aghhh!! >I understand the source of magic comes from the former power-core of the starship that crashed into Mystara. Was this the one that brought this technology to Mystara? All the tech came from the same spaceship, the FSS Beagle. How Blackmoor gained most of it I have no clue, as the ship had some rather formidable defenses and Blackmoor had many other enemies to deal with. (For you other Blackmoor fans, how about this theory- Perhaps it was a treaty of some sort worked out by the Fetch in which Blackmoor's mages taught some of the crew so Sgt Rocklin could protect himself from the Froggies while Rocklin gave Blackmoor tech in return?) >What was the identity of this alien race? Where they humanoid? What did they call themselves? The aliens were from the Galactic Federation and didn't have a specific name for themselves. They are very easily mistaken for humans, the only different being a slightly greenish skin tone. ( The Sand Folk actually seem more alien in comparison, huh, with their 4 arms and odd blood composition? ) >Are any other alien races mentioned? Nope. Anyways, all that info was basically from DA3, though the alien tech was first introduced in DA2. Not great adventure models, but interesting source info, much like DA1 (the best of the 3 IMO). Are those guys crazy? - Decepticon jet, referring to Aerialbots Crazy...or even dumber than I expected - Starscream *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:31:39 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor? Aghhh!! On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Cunningham wrote: >I'm currently running a cross-over campaign with Tale of the Comet in= my >Mystara game, and I was interested in making some historical connecti= ons >with Blackmoor. Now, all my knowledge of Blackmoor comes from the sin= gle >Gazzeteer I own: The Shadow Elves. I know that Blackmoor had a reason= able >degree of technology which they aquired from a crashed spacecraft (I think). I've got >a few questions on this: >=20 >I understand the source of magic comes from the former power-core of = the >starship that crashed into Mystara. Was this the one that brought thi= s >technology to Mystara? >What was the identity of this alien race? Where they humanoid? What d= id >they call themselves? >Are any other alien races mentioned? >=20 >If anyone can help me with these questions, I'd be greatful. My knowl= edge >of Mystara is growing, and is only ever enough for me to continue my = next >game... please help! *desperate cry* Okay, I'll have a try. I admit that I am no expert on this and if those who are haven't taken a vacation from this list in order to wrap in presents or whatever, then by all means step in. Blackmoor is mentioned in many accessories, first, I believe in the DA-series of adventure modules. There are also references to Blackmoor = in most of the gazetteers. GLantri, the gaz, is a good source. Another is Wrath of the Immortals, boxed set, which describes some of the events around the arrival of the FSS Beagle, the spaceship you mentioned. The Powercore, now known as the Nucleus of the Spheres or the Radiance,= is located below glantri city. It is not the source of magic, but it is connected to the Sphere of energy, slowly draining magic from Mystara(t= his all changed after the events described in Wrath of the Immortals) The Aliens: They were a race of green skinned humans from a political b= ody known as the Federation, existing somewhere far away from Mystara. (Probably in the core of the galaxy) One member of the crew is still alive and immortal. His name is Rheddri= an Benekander. If you want to know more about the blackmoor era you should check out Mystaros Blackmoor timeline on his homepage. I think Cthulhudrew was planning to put some blackmoor stuff on his pag= e aswell, but I dont know if thats out yet. Both sites can be reached via my Mystara page at http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc/mystara If something was unclear, feel free to ask :) H=E5vard ***** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:23:16 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara jdaly rambled (jdaly@friend.ly.net): >Glenn Butcher wrote: >>jdaly rambled (jdaly@friend.ly.net): >>>H=E5vard R=F8nne Faanes wrote: >>Back to the topic: >>However, too much crossover can be just corny. It's difficult to take= a >>setting seriously when it seems to be an imitation of the real world.= How >>many people would take a famous bard called Elvis seriously?=20 >=20 >But the elf named Elvis example is just plain silly. Silliness even in moderation can be bad for a campaign. So far I have never really gotte= n >it to work well in my campaigns. Although I have a friend who runs a campaign with a regular bounty hunter/villain named Terrance Two-Swords. He is a bit silly and arrogant at the same time. Makes fo= r >a good villain. I think mine were always too overdone. I didn't mean that the _characters_ can't be silly. What I meant was more to do with events. It is difficult to remain objective when events are shadowing real world events. My personal opinion will colour the way I portray events happening. It also reduces my ability to believe in Mystara as a "real" world. >I remember a >>campaign where the Kith (drow equivalent) deity was called Keith. Non= e of >>the players could take it seriously. I told the DM that even if Keith= the >>Kith god appeared before us, I'd just laugh. >=20 >I could be misinterpreting your description but it sounds to me like th= e >problem here is one of the PLAYERS taking a word and applying it to rea= l >life. That can be disruptive but I do not see it as the DM's fault unless he meant for the relating of Kith=3DKeith to have that effect. He didn't, and that is the point. If I name my bard Elvis, the characters don't know the significance of the name, it's the _players_ who will throw things at me. It was the same with Keith the Kith god.=20 We had a discussion (well, the rest had a discussion, my character left and went to sleep, leaning against her very large black cat familiar/bodyguard/lover-when-in-human-form. Sheesh, that was a complicated campaign.) Where was I...Well, after 20 minutes of talking=20 about Keith the Kith god, nobody could keep a straight face.=20 It was unfortunate that we were meant to be frightened of this deity striking back for the destruction of his temple. When he did, the other players (my char was spared due to non-involvement) were more annoyed. "How dare he do that to us?" was the general attitude. Everybody was too good at roleplaying to act that way in character, but it was there. Most of the players quietly ignored the=20 event from their characters perspective.=20 This wasn't really my point anyway. >>It's fine having symbolic representations (like Shadow Elves=3DJews),= but >>when it's carried too far, I feel that Mystara starts to lose it's lustre, it's appeal of a fantasy world. I might as well be playing a campaign set in the real world. >=20 >But I have to point out that this is your preference. I agree with you= r >preference to some extent. Though there are certain political movement= s >in my campaign (for example a politician in Darokin: "A simple dagger for personal defense is one thing, but two handed swords were crafted with one sole purpose in mind. Such life taking weapons have real effects on real people. If you elect me I will see to it that no children get their hands on such weapons! The government must take a more responsible role in personal weapon control.") I'd like to see a child wielding a two-handed sword. Yes, it is my perference. Some degree of cross-over is good, Serraine being a nice example. The players love it. They do realise that "serious" events aren't going to be corny tho.=20 >Such things, if done in moderation, lead to experiences which are easie= r >for some people to roleplay because they are closer to their personal experiences. I can expand on this if you really want me too... I'm not saying not to have things that happen in the real world, but the large scale events don't have to be. If I described the Shadow Elf invasion of Alfheim as being like the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, people immediately have opinions on the matter. (yes, I know it's not a good example). Most character opinions and personalities are formed by small incidents, they are revealed by large incidents and/or their opinion of them Having real-world events does increase the realistic feel of the world, but they don't have to be blatant. For instance, you can have corruption = in Thyatis without tying it to corruption in any other country at any time period. - --=20 Glenn Butcher mailto:knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | "We have plenty of time to finger -l for PGP public key | kill ourselves." http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 22:11:51 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Elven Lifespan At 13.37 03/01/98 EST, Alex295 wrote: >BTW- Since lifespans and offspring originated this thread- >A standard Orc lives about 40 years. 10 months gestation period. 2-3 offspring per birth. High mortality rate. There's a whole book about Orcs&friends: GAZ10. About orcs lifespan: Young adult orc: 18+1d6 years Mature orc: 28 years Elder orc: 55+ year Anyway we should consider that orcs have a higher mortality rate if compared to humans, because of their warlike nature. Orcs Int has a maximum of 16 and no special bonus/malus. All 'noids have a 16 max Int, but Trolls have -2 on their dice roll. >Ondonti Orcs live 60 years. The rest is identical to the standard orc. IMO the >longer lifespan and possibly a lower infant mortality rate, are due to a more stable living environment and better diet. What are Ondonti Orcs? - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:21:09 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Elven Lifespans Did anyone get my mail with the list of NPCs and their age from the Alfheim Gaz? H=E5vard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:19:46 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - War of Wrath in 1009 AC On 5 Jan 1998 3@giga.com.ar wrote: >What is the War of Wrath in 1009 AC? >There is a connection with the Wrath or the Inmortals? What is Wrath of the Inmortals? The Events between 1000 and 1009 are detailed in the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set. The War takes place mainly in the years 1003-1009 AC(After the crowning of the first emperor of Thyatis) This war and the related events change the mystara setting dramatically= . (The sinking of Alphatia, the Invasion of Alfheim, the Day without magi= c etc..) Wrath of the Immortals, the boxed set includes a campaign in which thes= e events take place and another book with all the information you'll need about the Immortals. H=E5vard=20 Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caro= ll*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 20:30:26 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - War of Wrath in 1009 AC At 13.37 05/01/98 -0300, 3@giga.com.ar wrote: >What is the War of Wrath in 1009 AC? >There is a connection with the Wrath or the Inmortals? The War of Wrath, as Kavyid called it, is the war that take place between 1004 AC and 1009 AC and it's described in the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set. >What is Wrath of the Inmortals? It's one of the last boxed sets for Mystara. Inside the boxed set you'll find a guide to the Immortals and immortals level campaigns and a smaller campaign booklet that describes the worldshaking events from 1004 AC to 1009 AC including 3 adventures for your PC and more. You'll find more answer to this and other questions in the Mystara FAQ that you can find at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/ - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 18:16:02 +1200 From: John Howell Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Master of the Desert Nomads PBeM Hi all. I have been playing in a PBeM oD&D setting for about four months now. With the help of the gamemaster, Liam Jones, the previous adventures of the party are now on the web! The game is based on the X4 & X5 series of modules ("The Master of the Desert Nomads" and "The Temple of Death"). If you would like to check the adventure out, go to: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/6239/ Regards, John *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:41:37 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Hitler/Communism and Mystara I would like to point, as I did on a previous mail, that real-world inspiration is the basis of Mystara, but a kind of real world which does not follow history and politics by book or manual. It is normal the lack of true capitalism in Mystara, and so true communism too, as somebody else pointed, but we should go further: there is a lack of anything true: feudal states in Mystara are quite far away from our Middle Ages feudalism: there are no serfs, people are not bound to the land and can run freely. I am writing a book on France at the XIth Century for a "real history" publishing house and I may assure you that a party of adventurers would have quite a dull life in true feudal lands if they all did not sprign from the nobility. So everything can be adapted and used to make a backround which is appealing and playable for a fantasy game. The best example of that are the Principalities of Glantri. They are a fantasy version of feudalism: instead of birthrights, the right of magic rules there. Take the Savage baronies: Being from Spain, I have always been double-minded about the history of the Conquistadores: they aspired to great deeds but they carried them out in bloody (no pun intended) ways. The search for Eldorado (the mythical city of gold) is quite nicely rendered into the craving for Cynnabril and Red Steel. We have a basis of truth, but our gaming universe is (fortunately), more romantic and fantastic. Just some musing Virgilios Nikomenos Court Poet of Thyatis *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:23:22 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, jdaly wrote: >>>And what race or country (in Mystara) are you proposing would have such noble motives as to each work for the good of his fellow man and not for his own gain? >>are you one of those libertarian cynics who thinks human beings have to be either totally self-interested or totally altruistic (and is sure they are the former)? >Well I can already see your bias... and I can see yours. What's your point? If we're going to discuss the way people on Mystara behave and model it on our view of human behavior in the real world, it's pertinent to discuss those views and the reasons we hold them. I am prepared to back up my opinions ... are you? >I would tend to agree that "true communism" in the >>Marxist sense is extremely unlikely to exist on Mystara, >This was the only point I was making. Thank you. I guess this means you're not interested in further discussion. I was not the one who originally suggested Communists in Mystara (I think someone else actually was referring to the Federation, a different matter entirely). I was instead trying to question your statements about self-interest and altruism to see if I could get a really philosophical discussion about human nature and social order going that might help us develop Mystara more richly. Guess not. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:07:49 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Careful With the "Jews In Mystara" Thread... I hate to step in like this, but I must warn those involved in the "Jews In Mystara" top keep it on topic. That is, keep it entirely relavent to Mystara. This is not the best forum for discussing the (ir)rationality of Hitler. Thanks you. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 10:25:15 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark Articles Galwylin wrote: >Greetings! >I don't have Bruce Heard's address so if your out there Bruce... >Do you have an idea why the TSR website doesn't have plans to add your Princess Ark articles to their Dragon Magazine section? >-- >This has been a Galwylin© Production >http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ >ICQ #6755972 >Vote for the Mystara Netlogo! >http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. You know, I saw one Princess Ark article listed and several Known World Grimoires. They did not have links yet but I believe the database is as yet unfinished. If anyone else has any information I would be very interested to hear it. Not only would it be useful to have these in electronic form, but I missed a Mystara related article regarding the Immortal dragons... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:56:57 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor? Aghhh!! Blackmoor....hmm. Let me see if I can help. I have done a bit of work in regards to the Blackmoor in fleshing out my Divergans. Resource info on Blackmoor is sketchy. It is worse in regards to the tech period. Mystaros did a history on them. Note that some of this is of my own making. As such, you can take it how you wish. In a message dated 97-12-22 09:57:26 EST, you write: << I understand the source of magic comes from the former power-core of the starship that crashed into Mystara. Was this the one that brought this technology to Mystara?>> Not all magic. Mainly the Radiance based spells of Glantri and Shadow Elf Shamans. The spaceship, the BEAGLE, is shown in City of the Gods (DA# series). It is also spoken of in the WotI. The Blackmoor were pro technology due to their king. When the Beagle crashed, King Uther sent his people to seek out this technology. IMO the Blackmoor's technology is based upon and rooted on the Beagle. <> Not really sure if a name was given. Might be in City of the Gods. Don't have it handy. The Beagle crew, or at least Benekander, was green skinned, tall, black hair. Simular to the Emerond minus the hair and elven appearance. The Beagle was a Federation Ship, an exploration type IIRC. From what I remember it is safe to say that they were very simular to humans in appearance. <> None I can think of off hand. Alien races are seen in other modules. Oards come to mind immediately. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 14:01:49 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews in Mystara (was something else :) At 03.41 04/01/98 +0100, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >Im really disappointed you didnt mention Norways role in this Brizio, with the Oslo treaty and all that. Well, I guess we dont have much to be proud of since its all a mess again now. Sorry Håvard. I was thinking to the Rabin-Arafat meeting in Washington and I completely forgot about the Oslo treaty. Let's go back to Mystara and stop talking about politics. >Funny. I dont see the Northern Reaches playing a role in a peace process on Mystara. How strange ;) On a similar issue. I don't mind having occasional parallels between the real world and Mystara, but I think we should not go too far. Mystara is our fantasy world, making it like our real world wouldn't probably be fun. We have the Storm Soldiers-SS in Hattias and the Shadow Elves-Jews in Aengmor, but there's no good mystaran reason IMO to have the Storm Soldiers attack the Shadow Elves just because of what happened in real world during WW2. Just my opinion. >Weren't you talking about a war in 1020? Yes. Someone talked about a war in 1020, but I thought it was too early and said that maybe it 1020... >I guess I should just shut up and wait for upcoming Almanacs eh? :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:58:18 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Thyatin and Alphatian Mages On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Matthew Levy wrote: In my campaign i let my PC's use the Players Option: Skills and Powers... A cleric of Ixion chose Wizardly Priests with acess to evoker. I think it fits perfectly that she can cast Fireball and flameing sphere... >you are jumping to conclusions. i don't let them have just any spells ... the point is, as i conceive of clerics and wizards the difference is in how they get their powers ... priests worship deities, wizards study from books, that simple. now, priests of fire deities (for instance Ixion) might very well get granted powerful fire spells like fireball, but they >would not have a free range of wizard spells by any means ... they would not, for instance, have any ability whatsoever with illusions. hmm....If you use Players Option: Spells and Magic they might have acess to Orisions, A preistly version of cantrip . . . >with priests ... such as control over plants ... but would never have distinctly clerical abilities like healing (which can be done ONLY through immortal grace, which is what keeps glantri limited). the point is to expand the flavor of the game ... and i think having wizards wear armor is reasonable too, if they are limited in other ways. look at the spells & magic player's option book. and don't tell me that metal blocks spellcasting, because that's certainly not true for elves, bards, etc. ... the point anyway is not to blur the distinctions of what is essential to mages and what is essential to clerics, but to rethink the grey areas and spice up Mystara, make it more distinctive. i always thought much of the segregation of powers between the two classes is arbitrary and based on a feudal european model, which doesn't work everywhere. i would think that you as a fan of the Steppe people would see the advantages of having Hakomons whose powers are distinctly different in conception and range than their enemies across the Dol Anur to the west ... >m@2 >"You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" >- said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... >On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, JamugaKhan wrote: >><< one thing i've done to spice up the magic system is to create my own spell >>lists, which often mix wizard and priest (and shaman) spells together under a common theme >> >>What are you doing? Nullifying the clerics? If magic-users can do the work of clerics, what is then the reason for the existnce of clerics? If you give more clerical spells to magic-users, you must give more magic-users spells to clerics, vice versa. In the end we have two guys with exactly the same spells with only two differences: The one memorizes his spells from a book and wears no armour, and the other gets his spells from an immortal and wears armour. This we don't want surely. >>Jamuga Khan >>"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #2 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, January 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 003 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Elven Lifespans Re: [MYSTARA] - The Master of the Desert Nomads PBeM Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Other Sources (Elven Lifespan) [MYSTARA] - New/Revised Mystara Products? Re: [MYSTARA] - Gazetteer for the Empire of Selhomarr is now available [MYSTARA] - How's the Mystara NetLogo Contest Going? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hitler/Communism and Mystara [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Death, Taxes, and Spam... Re: [MYSTARA] - Hitler/Communism and Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor? Aghhh!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:14:19 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Elven Lifespans =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= pontificated: >Did anyone get my mail with the list of NPCs and their age from the Alfheim Gaz? I think I got that twice. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:34:59 +0100 From: kris Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Master of the Desert Nomads PBeM At 18.16 06/01/98 +1200, you wrote: >Hi all. >I have been playing in a PBeM oD&D setting for about four months now. >With the help of the gamemaster, Liam Jones, the previous adventures >of the party are now on the web! >The game is based on the X4 & X5 series of modules ("The Master of the >Desert Nomads" and "The Temple of Death"). If you would like to check >the adventure out, go to: >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/6239/ >Regards, >John Really a good work! I'm a lurker of your game and I'm really enjoying myself. I wish you all of Master of the Desert Nomads PBeM a good trip in the swamp and in the desert ... Again my compliments Cronwyn Thraddan. I have to thank you for teaching me what is a PBeM game and how to menage it, I hope this would help me in my first attempt as a player in the CotKW PBeM ruled by Galwylin ... Cristiano ========================= Ombra Kris Ivanov Kris@spm.it ========================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:48:50 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World >(Interesting idea on the failure of marketing strategy clipped) >>Anyway, my first question is this: How many of you use the Mystara setting prior to the Wrath of the Immortals (personally I think it is more interesting in many ways because of the presence of the Empire of Alphatia. But the drama present afterward with so much death and destruction is difficult to resist.) and how many of you use the setting after those events? Why? I use pre-WOTI right now as well, even though I have pretty much everything made on Mystara, except for the AD&D boxed adventures with the audio CDs (I'm a bit of a purist in this respect - it's Gazetteer D&D or nothing, as far as I'm concerned). I, too, prefer to have the players deal with the machinations of two empires - and I find WOTI to be a bit disruptive in this respect, though this is still an excellent product as far as it goes. >>Second question: Apparently there is a Wizard's of the Coast website which has a questionaire for old products. Supposedly if enough people vote on a product they will resurrect it. Do you think Mystara stands a chance with Wizard's of the Coast in charge? Do you think if there is a resurrection then history will repeat itself? I have visited the site and cast my vote for bringing back Mystara, and I think that, if we even organize ourselves as well as the Greyhawk camp, or even make ourselves a little more vocal (though not insulting or confrontational, of course!), we might get to see some products hit the shelves. Anything is possible at the moment. Someone on this list mentioned a while back that they spoke with a WotC rep about Mystara, and this rep apparently said that there might be one product released for our world, in order to judge market demand for it. If they do so, I pray that this item will be of good quality, such as another Gazetteer or a well-written adventure, and not another audio CD monster - otherwise Mystara will be doomed, I think. Even if Mystara hits the shelves again, I still think there is a need for our work on the Almanac, various campaign settings (thanks for mentioning Selhomarr, Mischa!), and other new classes and rules. Heck, I've had too much fun doing this to quit now! :) Our ideas are great - let's keep up the good work no matter what. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:50:00 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Other Sources (Elven Lifespan) In a message dated 98-01-10 06:40:32 EST, you write: << At 13.37 03/01/98 EST, Alex295 wrote: >BTW- Since lifespans and offspring originated this thread- >A standard Orc lives about 40 years. 10 months gestation period. 2-3 offspring per birth. High mortality rate. There's a whole book about Orcs&friends: GAZ10. About orcs lifespan: Young adult orc: 18+1d6 years Mature orc: 28 years Elder orc: 55+ year Anyway we should consider that orcs have a higher mortality rate if compared to humans, because of their warlike nature. Orcs Int has a maximum of 16 and no special bonus/malus. All 'noids have a 16 max Int, but Trolls have -2 on their dice roll.>> Unfortunately I do not have Orcs of Thar. It is on my "list" of products to get. Still, I thank you for this insight as it somewhat supports my case that Orcs are not bumbling idiots. At worst, they are a tad slow. << >Ondonti Orcs live 60 years. The rest is identical to the standard orc. IMO the >longer lifespan and possibly a lower infant mortality rate, are due to a more >stable living environment and better diet. What are Ondonti Orcs?>> Ondonti Orcs are illustrated in Monstrous Compendium Vol. 3. From what I recall of the text (working from memory) the Ondonti are "cousins" of regular Orcs. Unlike their brethren, they are farmers, peaceful, trustworthy, and pacifists. "Lore" tells that the Ondonti were placed in a remote area of Toril(?) by a peace loving, pacifist God. The god gave them certain magical aspects for foregoing their normal warlike manner and to aid in their survival. Cannot recall them all, but BarkSkin is one. And maybe a Protection or Detect spell. MC#3 goes on to say that the Ondanti live longer than standard Orcs 60 years. I assume this to be from a better diet from farming and the docile nature. I would also suspect that the infant mortality rate would also be lower. Other than these, the Ondanti and standard Orc are the same. I know that the MC#3 is AD&D but I have found several creatures that could easily be added to offer great advantages to the Mystara Setting. This is especially so in the less travelled roads of Davania and Skothar. Never know what might be around the corner. Creatures that caught my eye were the Amber Dragon, Ondanti, Dragon Slayer, and Bone Bane to cite a few. Then there is the Jabberwocky. Interesting creature based upon Lewis Carol's little rhyme. TSR made good use of the rhyme to give it ample powers and defenses (Babble, Vorpal Sword, and Light Casting Eyes). Though a bit silly, if DM'd right it could work out good in a Game. Another example of using other world stuff, is the use of GreyHawk's City of Skulls to create a humanoid stronghold in the BrokenLands. You could also scale it down and present Kol a dandy little siege. Yet another is Ravenloft. In particular are the Van Ritchen Guides. A neat little way to spice up an undead adversary for that group of PCs that think they know their undead. The Children of the Night series is slowly coming out. Offers some splendid examples of Vampires and Ghosts. In particular, Jander Sunstar a vampire hunting elven nosferatu that hates the "devil Strahd". Jander also looks alot like the god Morninglord. BTW any RL people ever connected the Morninglord to Ixion. The decription of both are very simular. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:54:10 +0100 From: Deathwatch Naranek Subject: [MYSTARA] - New/Revised Mystara Products? Hey, When I talked to a friend of mine yesterday, he told me that he had seen that a new (or revised, he wasn't sure) Karameikos boxed set was to come out later this year. (He had seen it in a store's books) Now, I was wondering. Is this just an revised box, or is it the 'old' K:KoA box? (I think the latter, though) Bas van Doornspeek - deathw@xs4all.nl *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:39:19 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Gazetteer for the Empire of Selhomarr is now available >What't the joke? I tried it -- there is nothing there but a counter. Whoops, my mistake! Go to Shawn's site (the address I gave you before), scroll down to the link for geography, click that and scroll down to the Hollow World section, and under the subsection for Suridal you'll see a bunch of HTML files detailling all things Lhomarrian. Sorry about that, should have given you all the full address. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:41:43 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - How's the Mystara NetLogo Contest Going? Hey Galwylin: Just wondering if you could give the list an idea of how the NetLogo Contest is coming along after the first week and a bit. Obviously you can't give out any specific voting results since voting is still open until the end of January, but it would be nice you could pass along some of the less critical details (i.e., approximately how many votes have come in so far, and whether there happens to be one of the entries which seems to be clearly in the lead, or if there are two or three which are vying for the top place, etc.) Inquiring minds want to know! Let us in on what you can tell us.;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:11:53 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hitler/Communism and Mystara Nothing that you say here is untrue. But my point was not "how could communism have developed on Mystara" rather "what Mystaran race would be best suited". In other words, forget the development for a moment. Let's postulate "a communist setting on Mystara". How we arrived here, for the moment, is unimportant. What race could actually exist in such a system? I know for a fact, being one, that humans are too selfish or motivated or individualistic to all exist for the betterment of each other. For every man to work his best for every other man's benefit is not something you are going to see among the human race. Perhaps the elves might have such a system. I could much easier see elves looking out for each other in such a manner. Their long view of the world might take them beyond "what's in it for me" or "what is the point of striving when their is nothing to gain". Dwarves may work under such a system. I know the first thing you may think of is the difficulty to work in the greed/gold thing. But my personal reading of dwarves (at least in the Mystara setting) is that they do not strive for gold for the sake of gold. Rather the gold is an ingredient for making beautiful things and is sought more for that reason. In any case, as for communism, I believe their self discipline would keep their spirit of work going despite the lack of reward. For a dwarf, work is its own reward. I have only addressed communism as it looks on paper. Of course, we all know, that communism does not work out quite that way in real life. Conservatives like myself would say that this is because human beings cannot exist under such an institution. But my main point in bringing this up is that communism as it exists in the real world might be found among the orcs where you might find few holding the power over the many. In any case these are my opinions and a little more detail on what I asked earlier. At 03:50 PM 1/9/98 EST, you wrote: ><< >>And what race or country (in Mystara) are you proposing would have such noble motives as to each work for the good of his fellow man and not for his own gain? >Don't you read your Marx ? The Proleteriat do not move to Communism because of noble motives, it is a natural inevitable evolutionary progression. >I had to check to make sure I was not reading correspondance from my political studies mailing lists. I am another of those Role Players who has a Masters Degree in Political Science. Is there some kind of ability to understand and imagine new fantasy nations/races/cultures and political systems that can help understand the political theories of the Real World ? >The debate on facism, and now communism, is very interesting but I think that we are trying to read too much, and transfer too much to Mystara. You are trying to transfer communism into an environment without capitalism. Marx would be very disappointed with the lack of understanding of his teachings. >Politics and its idealogies have to be linked to a history, and a set of>particular circumstances. Mystara has a different history, and some similar circumstances. The other ideology being discussed, Facism, evolved because of certain conditions in the RW, because of the experiences of people like Mussolini and Hitler - ie Eperiences of the First World War, Opposition to Soviet Union, Unemployment in Italy, Depression and Starvation in Germany, The Treaty of Versailles, Lack of a credible political alternative. I could go, and did during my fanatastically interesting essay on 'Facism - Its emergence in Europe'. Not available in the shops unfortunately. >My message is don't try and relate Mystara too closely to the Real World. Use some of our political systems as inspiration. But don't think that you can use the Real World to support your views on how a country should develop. >I also fear that we will soon move into the area of making judgement on political systems. Who is going to be the first to try and put alignments on political systems and raise the issue of good and evil ? >Bye the Now >Jason >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:41:18 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Death, Taxes, and Spam... Mystarans, As many have noticed, the list was spammed. With this I feelt he need to point out a few things... 1) When the list is spammed I get a definite sense of how much people care about the list. How? The amount of e-mail I recieve. The motivation behind this is very cool; you like the list and don't like seeing it messed with. I appreciate that Still, at the risk of sounding like a grump, I have to ask that you refrain. With this last spamming alone I recieved 14 e-letters indicating we were spammed and something needed to be done about it. I once recieved nearly 30 such letters after a spamming incident early last year. Fear not, though, because I notice these things like everyone else. The moment I see spam on the list I send off several letters of complaint to those who might have the power to put a stop to it, such as the originating addresses postmaster. Rest assured something is being done. 2) Similar to the above, if the list is spammed, please do not post anything to the list about it. The end result is basically more spam. If the spam post indicates anything about removal, please don't send such requests to the list, since that is unlikely to achieve anything. 3) If you feel the need to write an e-letter of complaint, go ahead and send it privately to someone who might be able to help us out. The addresses I get the best results from are... The original senders address postmaster@whatever.domain admin@whatever.domain administrator@whatever.domain Again, I will be doing the same. Make sure you mention the address of the list, and always be polite. Site admins have better things to do than help rude people. 4) This list, unlike the last one, is closed to non-subscribers. This does not necessarilly stop people from spammnig us, as all they have to do is subscribe. After they have hit us I can then go ahead and unsubscribe them, which I will do. 5) Finally, the words you did not want to hear... spam is currently a fact of life, one everyone will have to get used to until someone passes a law making it illegal. If we get spammed, the best thing to do is delete it and move on. People always ask, "Isn't there something you can do? Some sort of drastic measures you can take?" And the answer to this is "No." Even with the list being closed we will still see spam. I have seen spam on every list I am on (and I am on about 15 or more). Thank you for your time. Good gaming! Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:23:33 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hitler/Communism and Mystara On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Wassellj wrote: >I had to check to make sure I was not reading correspondance from my political studies mailing lists. I am another of those Role Players who has a Masters Degree in Political Science. Is there some kind of ability to understand and imagine new fantasy nations/races/cultures and political systems that can help understand the political theories of the Real World ? I tend to see the two as related, in fact. Being a DM means being able to imagine an entire world into existence and make it plausible ... this means being able to see how complex systems work, especially social systems (since most of the tension in good D&D games comes from interaction with intelligent, social beings, who make the toughtest opponents and most interesting friends) ... and this is of course what social scientists do. In fact though I was trying to suggest the opposite of what you're talking about ... I meant to say that understanding political theories about the real world might help us imagine new fantasy nations/races/cultures/political systems on the model of our RW theories. >The debate on facism, and now communism, is very interesting but I think that we are trying to read too much, and transfer too much to Mystara. You are trying to transfer communism into an environment without capitalism. Marx would be very disappointed with the lack of understanding of his teachings. for the last freakin time, nobody suggested that capitalism or developed communism does, did, or could exist in Mystara! i think we're all in agreement that the only time period in Mystaran history with the technological development to be analyzed on Marxist lines would be blackmoor ... and even then it seems Blackmoorian society was very different from the RW industrial age in many ways. I understand Marxist theory just fine, thank you. In fact however I think Marxist theory is underdeveloped for understanding the real workings of pre-modern or non-western societies (I prefer a theorist like Geertz instead) and i was trying to get whoever made the self-interest comment to step back and take a look at their assumptions about human nature. >Politics and its idealogies have to be linked to a history, and a set of particular circumstances. Mystara has a different history, and some similar circumstances. The other ideology being discussed, Facism, evolved because of certain conditions in the RW, because of the experiences of people like Mussolini and Hitler - ie Eperiences of the First World War, Opposition to Soviet Union, Unemployment in Italy, Depression and Starvation in Germany, The Treaty of Versailles, Lack of a credible political alternative. I could go, and did during my fanatastically interesting essay on 'Facism - Its emergence in Europe'. Not available in the shops unfortunately. too bad. what do you think about the elite theorists (Michels, Mosca, Pareto)? - reply to me in person if you like so we don't keep annoying everyone else on the list. >My message is don't try and relate Mystara too closely to the Real World. Use some of our political systems as inspiration. But don't think that you can use the Real World to support your views on how a country should develop. now you're losing me again. of COURSE Mystaran history is not real world history. But everything we have collectively imagined into Mystaran existence has its roots in the RW in one form or another, and our minds constantly refer to the RW to judge the plausibility of our imaginings, whether we like it or not (at least mine does). This isn't a strict "could this physically occur" kind of questioning, otherwise it wouldn't be a fantasy world, but it's more along the lines of "can i suspend disbelief and get into the flow of events?" ... if something just seems lame, whether it's because it seems impossible, or the real world references are too obvious, or the characters are too shallow, or the plot isn't compelling, or whatever, then the game isn't fun anymore. and i, being someone who thinks way too much about these things, find fantasy worlds with really simplistic political systems implausible and therefore not fun. of course everyone is entitled to whatever kind of fun they like, and i am not suggesting that someone COULD NOT have a capitalist or communist or whatever fantasy setting, i am just suggesting that i would think it was kinda dumb and therefore not compelling. but whatever the setting is, and no matter what the game, i do check it against my understanding of "the real world" in one way or another. i can't really imagine how you could not do so. >I also fear that we will soon move into the area of making judgement on political systems. Who is going to be the first to try and put alignments on political systems and raise the issue of good and evil ? again, this is just my point. we all DO in real life have feelings toward different political systems or world events, and these feelings are part of a set of beliefs about the world that help to form our imagination and thus what kinds of fantasy we find satisfying. This is what post-freudian film critics spend their energy analyzing ... the way that cultural or psychological anxiety of various kinds plays itself out in the form of fantasy. just like there are reasons people like star wars or rambo (and just as their political leanings play a part in this enjoyment), there are also reasons people like Mystara and, whether they will admit it or not, their subconscious IS playing itself out in the fantasy of the game. As a player and DM, you can either ignore this (which makes for a very flat and ultimately uninteresting game, IMHO) OR you can USE it to make the game that much more compelling. Example: A paladin gets sent by his church/king to go to a foreign land and kill orcs who are worshipping demons and raiding humans. he has detect evil spells and thus knows the good guys from the bad automatically. his job is to kill the bad guys. he goes and does it. lots of fighting, lots of killing, occasional close scrapes or tactical decisions to be made, sort of fun but ultimately kind of cliche. now change this setting a little. The paladin is sent to another land to kill orcs as before, but this time he only hears rumors of demon worship. the people being raided are also orcs, and he can't necessarily tell the ones he's defending from the ones he's supposed to kill. not only that, detect evil spells don't always work reliably, and the rumored demons are said by some other people in his community to actually be good spirits. people around him (some on his own side) are critical of his church/state, and even the paladin himself has some suspicions about the people he is taking orders from. he begins to wonder whether the lawful side of his vows is overwhelming the good element. to make matters worse, he now has more contact with orcs than ever before, and begins to see them as living sentient beings with emotions and families and homes and everything else just like humans. perhaps some orcs help him or even save his life ... perhaps he is ordered by his superiors to exterminate an orc village, women and children included, and his conscience bothers him so much that he can't do it ... whereupon he is excommunicated by his own church! or maybe even better, he carries out the orders and then is later turned upon and scape-goated by higher ups in the organization, etc. In this second case, the emotional tension and the degree of role playing required increase exponentially, and there is no loss of combat excitement or dangerous situations either. obviously my second formulation is meant to play upon the player's political understanding of the Vietnam war (or perhaps the German troops in Russia in WWII) ... without these elements, it can still work, but with them it works even better (especially if the view of the conflict that i am presenting is slightly different from the one the player starts with ... not so different as to cause them to quit the game, but just different enough to make them think) ... the trick is that the tension lies in the difference between player's and DM's conception of the world, not in the danger (which is only a fleeting thrill in my experience). this is a very tricky kind of campaign to do but it can be extremely interesting. m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:08:36 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor? Aghhh!! Daly wrote: >Regarding the nucleus of the spheres as "the source of magic": The Shadowelves Gazetteer does indeed give the impression that this is the case. This does not mean that it must be so as other gazetteers and other gaming material gives a different impression. Its been a while since I read the Shadowelves Gazetteer. Gonna have to take a look at it again. I haven't had a chance to take a close look at some of the compiled timelines that people have constructed so I may be wrong, but I thought the creation of the Nucleus of the Spheres happened at the fall of the Blackmoor civilization (or at least after it was very well established). The DA series of modules (the Blackmoor ones) take place just as Blackmoor is becoming an independant power. Magic use does exist in these modules. Since that is so, I guess we've found another one of the plethora of contradictions that exist in canon material. If the Nucleus was the source of all magic on Mystara, then there couldn't be magic use before its creation. Now I'll have to see exactly what the Shadowelves gazetteer says and figure out what's what. Hmmmm.... >The answer will come at the end of the Tale of the Comet when they discover that the destroyed civilization is that ancient one they are familiar with. This will hopefully produce a certain haunting effect that I am after... Ooohhh! Creepy. I like that very much! Good luck with it! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #3 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, January 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 004 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Hello list? [MYSTARA] - Mailing List Problems (yet again) [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Module Trade [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - Re: Mystara Netlogo Contest Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - The Master of the Desert Nomads PBeM [MYSTARA] - Darokin Merchant Lords Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:57:32 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hello list? Leroy changed the e-mail address on my subscription and I haven't gotten any posting since then. So ... this is a test to see if my own post gets sent back to me. Sorry for the noise. (Although if ONLY one of you could send me e-mail to let me know you saw this ;). A catch-22 of course.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:48:31 -0500 From: Rob Miracle Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mailing List Problems (yet again) We think we have the list working again. Things seem to be operating a lot smoother now. Give it a spin. Rob - -- Rob Miracle Play WebDrakkar (http://www.mpgn.com/web-drakkar.html) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:04:56 -0500 From: Aron Reif Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Module Trade I just found some old modules in a used-book store that I thought some of you guys might like: X8 - Drums on Fire Mountain X10 - Red Arrow, Black Shield! X12 - Skarda's Mirror All three are in near-perfect condition (the only flaw that I can find on any of them is a price tag) and come complete with all the counters and maps and such. I've never seen a book in such good condition from a used-book store (and even from some new-book stores). Here's what I want to do: I'm looking for a good copy of B10 - Night's Dark Terror (in good condition with all the pieces--no missing pages or writing all over the book). I want to trade any or all three of these books for B10. Right now, trades are all I'm interested in (B10 is the only Mystara book that I don't have, and I've been looking for years). If I don't get any offers after a while, I'd be willing to sell them. I'll post another message if and when I decide to sell. Please post any replies to me personally, since I'm sure the rest of the MML doesn't want to read all those. Thanks. Aron Reif areif@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:23:00 -0500 From: Michael Southon Subject: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Gudday, Just a question to sir you brainiacs up: Concerning the prime material plane, 1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe 2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? 3) Is thunder-rift another plane or another planet? (ditto with forgotten realm and every other world, for that matter) 4) Has anyone considered the effects of applying Relativity to magic in this kind of world? 5) What is a dimention? How do they differ from planes? Leadryl Dracos *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:05:13 -0600 From: "Galwylin" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Mystara Netlogo Contest This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01BD1FA6.288244A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Just wondering if you could give the list an idea of how the NetLogo Contest is coming along after the first week and a bit. Gotten 45 votes so far but I really couldn't tell you which is most = popular so far. I haven't really been paying attention till the contest is = closer to finish and then I'll start counting and keeping closer tabs on which looks most popular. ________________________________ This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ ICQ #6755972 Vote for the Mystara Netlogo! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm - ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01BD1FA6.288244A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>  Just wondering if you could give the list an idea of how = the=20 NetLogo
>Contest is coming along after the first week and a=20 bit.


Gotten 45 votes so far but I really couldn't tell you = which is=20 most popular
so far.  I haven't really been paying attention = till the=20 contest is closer
to finish and then I'll start counting and keeping = closer=20 tabs on which
looks most popular.
________________________________
This has=20 been a Galwylin© Production
 
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/<= /A>
ICQ=20 #6755972
 
Vote for the Mystara Netlogo!
http://www.air= net.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm
- ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01BD1FA6.288244A0-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:17:40 GMT From: mar0173@ibm.net Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions At 12:23 13/01/98 -0500, Michael Southon wrote: >Concerning the prime material plane, >1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe >2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? >3) Is thunder-rift another plane or another planet? (ditto with forgotten realm and every other world, for that matter) >4) Has anyone considered the effects of applying Relativity to magic in this kind of world? >5) What is a dimention? How do they differ from planes? I guess I should try to answer this, specially the last ones, as the list physicist. It got long and with too much rambling, so I thought I'd better advise you about it, before you start reading. Let me see. 1) IIRC, in DotE, there is an adventure where the alphatians go to the other side of the galaxy where Mystara exists. This way, there is at least a whole galaxy out door, according to that box. 2) I suppose the federation is the one the Beagle came from. The WotI says: "far away in another dimension, ...", so it seems the federation EXISTS in another universe (it IS not a universe). 3) No idea, never read any of the thunder rift acessories. 4) I have no idea what you mean here. Relativity is just a theory of movement, both the Special and the General. They just describe how things move, the General taking in consideration the effects of mass and energy have in the space. There are a few odd consequences, certainly, but relativity is only about how things move. So, I can't see what you mean by consequences to magic. Not to mention a few important problems: - - Unless you create a mathematical theory of magic, describing precisely how it works and what effects it has in the world, it would be hard to integrate the theory of relativity into magic. - - There is instant travel in Mystara, so one of the most important basis of Relativity is gone, that being the speed of light as the limit for ANY movement. So, you can not use relativity in this contest. - - If you use time travel, things get worse. All our science is based in cause-effect, meaning that any effect has a cause that happens BEFORE the effect. I know there are some physicists who talk about time travel, but it is pure non-sense. I am not saying time travel is impossible in our universe, but they disccuss the possibility of it based on science theories that suppose cause-effect is ALWAYS true. And if cause-effect is always true, then there is no time travel. Of course, the theories might be wrong, but anything you say about it will have to be pure speculation. This way, you can use Relativity as inspiration to your ideas, but you can't apply it to a fantasy world. At least not until you define the physics of it, including magic, also. 5) That is one that always makes me angry. Dimension as used in any fantasy, comics or science fiction is NOT what fimension really means. Anyway, assuming the wrong definitions from the WotI, I can give you a better picture of it with an illustration. Imagine you are a being with only 2 spatial dimensions, living in a sheet of paper. That sheet of paper would be what people usually calls a plane. Now imagine your sheet is not alone, but is in a book, with many other sheet-planes next to it. As you live only in your sheet, you wil never know about it, but there might be ways to change sheets, so that you'd go to other planes. What WotI cals a dimension, would be the whole book. Other dimensions would be other books, with many sheet-planes inside it. That is a wrong use of the term dimension, as many other uses I have seen in many places including this list. But it is how someone who had no idea what he was talking about first understood it several decades ago and then spread this meaning to sci-fi, comics and fantasy. But I'll not try to explain why this is wrong, as this letter already got too long and too off-topic for the list. Andre Martins *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:54:53 +0100 From: Kris Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Master of the Desert Nomads PBeM At 18.16 06/01/98 +1200, you wrote: >Hi all. >I have been playing in a PBeM oD&D setting for about four months now. With the help of the gamemaster, Liam Jones, the previous adventures of the party are now on the web! >The game is based on the X4 & X5 series of modules ("The Master of the Desert Nomads" and "The Temple of Death"). If you would like to check the adventure out, go to: >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/6239/ >Regards, >John [ Between 9/1 and 12/1 I got no messages from the list - This message was already sent on 11/1/98 but never reached the list ...] Really a good work! I'm a lurker of your game and I'm really enjoying myself. I wish you all of Master of the Desert Nomads PBeM a good trip in the swamp and in the desert ... Again my compliments Cronwyn Thraddan. I have to thank you for teaching me what is a PBeM game and how to menage it, I hope this would help me in my first attempt as a player in the CotKW PBeM ruled by Galwylin ... Cristiano Cristiano.Perani@spm.it kris@spm.it *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:09:20 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - Darokin Merchant Lords As you know, GAZ11 does not give a great deal of information on important persons of Darokin (instead choosing to concentrate on unimportant ones ;) So I present here the proposed ages and levels of merchant house lords, along with reasons for choosing a specific age. Proposed ages of Darokin Merchant House Leaders, AC1000 Corwyn Mauntea 46 (PWAs), Merchant 25 Lucius Linton 67, Merchant 23 * His third son, Corwyn Linton, is 38, and I assumed he got the third son around age 30. Bertram Hallonica, 59, Merchant 20 * His father Rypien died in 988, probably around 70-80 years old. Nathalie Kalimi, 68, Merchant 18 * She is the widow of Vardon Kalimi, who retired in 971 (probably dying shortly thereafter). So Nathalie is probably quite old as well. Elissa Pennydown, 26, Merchant 17 * Pennydown was founded around 930, and Elissa is the great- granddaughter of the founder, so she should be quite young. Greenleaf Vickers, 27, Merchant 15 * He is a descendant of Sasheme Vickers, the first great diplomat, which presumably means he is not a son but farther along the line. Assuming the DDC was founded around the Great Merger or some time later, Greenleaf should be quite young. Eshram al-Azrad, 44, Merchant 14 * This is arbitrary. Arturo Franich, 51, Merchant 13 * Franich was founded in 937, and Arturo is the son of the founder, so he should be in the late middle age. Mendel Callister, 47, Merchant 12 * Again, this is arbitrary. This is open to comments... ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:19:23 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Michael Southon wrote: >Gudday, >Just a question to sir you brainiacs up: Wasn't Brainiac a bad guy? Just kidding. >Concerning the prime material plane, >1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe Well according to the original rules (in which Mystara=Earth) there are 9 planets in the solar system with and additional (10th) planet between the Earth and Mars. Because it would be later destroyed its name was Damocles. >2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? The Federation is in the same galaxy but closer to the center. It spans hundreds of solar systems and thousands of planets. Mystara is a backwater planet easily overlooked by the Federation. >3) Is thunder-rift another plane or another planet? (ditto with forgotten realm and every other world, for that matter) No idea. >4) Has anyone considered the effects of applying Relativity to magic in this kind of world? You mean like "matter can neither be created nor destroyed?". This is a scientific formula that I apply directly to magic (especially wishes). It works rather well. What is the wording of the theory of Relativity? It has been a while. >5) What is a dimention? How do they differ from planes? Much like mathematical dimensions. A one dimensional plane has length. A two dimensional plane has length and width. A three dimensional plane has the three dimensions that we all know and love. The 4th dimension is the direction we travel when we teleport. Since we cannot perceive that dimension the example of teleporting is the best description I can think of. Does that answer you question adequately? >Leadryl Dracos >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:22:41 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions mar0173@ibm.net wrote: I really hope you read my response to the same message! Your comments about dimension are excellent and mirror exactly what was described in the original Immortals set! You would have enjoyed that boxed set. >At 12:23 13/01/98 -0500, Michael Southon wrote: >>Concerning the prime material plane, >>1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe >>2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? >>3) Is thunder-rift another plane or another planet? (ditto with forgotten realm and every other world, for that matter) >>4) Has anyone considered the effects of applying Relativity to magic in this kind of world? >>5) What is a dimention? How do they differ from planes? >I guess I should try to answer this, specially the last ones, as the list physicist. It got long and with too much rambling, so I thought I'd better advise you about it, before you start reading. Let me see. >1) IIRC, in DotE, there is an adventure where the alphatians go to the other side of the galaxy where Mystara exists. This way, there is at least a whole galaxy out door, according to that box. >2) I suppose the federation is the one the Beagle came from. The WotI says: "far away in another dimension, ...", so it seems the federation EXISTS in another universe (it IS not a universe). >3) No idea, never read any of the thunder rift acessories. >4) I have no idea what you mean here. Relativity is just a theory of movement, both the Special and the General. They just describe how things move, the General taking in consideration the effects of mass and energy have in the space. There are a few odd consequences, certainly, but relativity is only about how things move. So, I can't see what you mean by consequences to magic. Not to mention a few important problems: - Unless you create a mathematical theory of magic, describing precisely how it works and what effects it has in the world, it would be hard to integrate the theory of relativity into magic. >- There is instant travel in Mystara, so one of the most important basis of Relativity is gone, that being the speed of light as the limit for ANY movement. So, you can not use relativity in this contest. - If you use time travel, things get worse. All our science is based in cause-effect, meaning that any effect has a cause that happens BEFORE the effect. I know there are some physicists who talk about time travel, but it is pure non-sense. I am not saying time travel is impossible in our universe, but they disccuss the possibility of it based on science theories that suppose cause-effect is ALWAYS true. And if cause-effect is always true, then there is no time travel. Of course, the theories might be wrong, but anything you say about it will have to be pure speculation. This way, you can use Relativity as inspiration to your ideas, but you can't apply it to a fantasy world. At least not until you define the physics of it, including magic, also. >5) That is one that always makes me angry. Dimension as used in any fantasy, comics or science fiction is NOT what fimension really means. Anyway, assuming the wrong definitions from the WotI, I can give you a better picture of it with an illustration. >Imagine you are a being with only 2 spatial dimensions, living in a sheet of paper. That sheet of paper would be what people usually calls a plane. Now imagine your sheet is not alone, but is in a book, with many other sheet-planes next to it. As you live only in your sheet, you wil never know about it, but there might be ways to change sheets, so that you'd go to other planes. What WotI cals a dimension, would be the whole book. Other dimensions would be other books, with many sheet-planes inside it. That is a wrong use of the term dimension, as many other uses I have seen in many places including this list. But it is how someone who had no idea what he was talking about first understood it several decades ago and then spread this meaning to sci-fi, comics and fantasy. But I'll not try to explain why this is wrong, as this letter already got too long and too off-topic for the list. >Andre Martins >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:48:39 -0000 From: "Alan Jones" Subject: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions Thunder Rift was intended to be a place where novice DM's could start a campaign and as such it was not milieu specific. I placed it in the mountains of Northern Karameikos. In fact my PC's still own a property in the town of Melnir..... I wonder if that dragon's egg has hatched yet Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon "May you live in interesting pants." http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #4 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, January 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 005 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - Alfheim Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra: Day 13 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 9:44:00 -0500 From: Michael Southon Subject: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Previously on NYPD Blue: >4) I have no idea what you mean here. Relativity is just a theory of movement, both the Special and the General. They just describe how things move, the General taking in consideration the effects of mass and energy have in the space. There are a few odd consequences, certainly, but relativity is only about how things move. So, I can't see what you mean by consequences to magic. Not to mention a few important problems: - Unless you create a mathematical theory of magic, describing precisely how it works and what effects it has in the world, it would be hard to integrate the theory of relativity into magic. >- There is instant travel in Mystara, so one of the most important basis of Relativity is gone, that being the speed of light as the limit for ANY movement. So, you can not use relativity in this contest. - If you use time travel, things get worse. All our science is based in cause-effect, meaning that any effect has a cause that happens BEFORE the effect. I know there are some physicists who talk about time travel, but it is pure non-sense. I am not saying time travel is impossible in our universe, but they disccuss the possibility of it based on science theories that suppose cause-effect is ALWAYS true. And if cause-effect is always true, then there is no time travel. Of course, the theories might be wrong, but anything you say about it will have to be pure speculation. This way, you can use Relativity as inspiration to your ideas, but you can't apply it to a fantasy world. At least not until you define the physics of it, including magic, also. This is precisely what I meant, but there are some other interesting effects. Time, Matter and Energy are all inter-related, allowing you to screw with one by screwing with the others (move faster, time slows down etc). Since the Immortals are not entities of Time/Matter/Energy etc but people (I use that term loosely) who study those spheres of knowledge, then surely the three "physical" (time, matter, energy) spheres would grow fairly close on the advent of a theory of relativity being realised. As these immortals have much greater control over thier spheres, then this leaves many interesting possibilities. It also leaves a much broader scope for the interpretation and relationships between the three "physical" spheres, thought and entropy. >5) That is one that always makes me angry. Dimension as used in any fantasy, comics or science fiction is NOT what fimension really means. Anyway, assuming the wrong definitions from the WotI, I can give you a better picture of it with an illustration. Imagine you are a being with only 2 spatial dimensions, living in a sheet of paper. That sheet of paper would be what people usually calls a plane. Now imagine your sheet is not alone, but is in a book, with many other sheet-planes next to it. As you live only in your sheet, you wil never know about it, but there might be ways to change sheets, so that you'd go to other planes. What WotI cals a dimension, would be the whole book. Other dimensions would be other books, with many sheet-planes inside it. That is a wrong use of the term dimension, as many other uses I have seen in many places including this list. But it is how someone who had no idea what he was talking about first understood it several decades ago and then spread this meaning to sci-fi, comics and fantasy. But I'll not try to explain why this is wrong, as this letter already got too long and too off-topic for the list. I hate the Dimension term-abuse too. So A plane holds many planets, and a dimension (sigh!) holds many planes. Do the Immortals span the dimentions, or are they cooped up in thier own? Also, does that mean that the beagle was one of the most powerful travelling vehicles ever, if it could travel between dimensions? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 9:51:00 -0500 From: Michael Southon Subject: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Previously on NYPD Blue: >Wasn't Brainiac a bad guy? Just kidding. Duh??? >>Concerning the prime material plane, >>1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe >Well according to the original rules (in which Mystara=Earth) there are 9 planets in the solar system with and additional (10th) planet between the Earth and Mars. Because it would be later destroyed its name was Damocles. Is Mystara = Earth? Or have they dumped that one? >>2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? >The Federation is in the same galaxy but closer to the center. It spans >hundreds of solar systems and thousands of planets. Mystara is a >backwater planet easily overlooked by the Federation. Aha! Conflicting answers! (See previous reply) Is it a dimension-spanning or planet-spanning or plane-spanning civilisation? Do the resources contradict eachother? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:33:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Michael Southon wrote: >Concerning the prime material plane, >1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe Plenty of other planets. In fact, the Mystara solar system (as described in the original Gold Box Immortals set by Frank Mentzer) is similar to our own RW solar system- substitute Mystara for Earth, and add a few planets (I forget offhand which), though. As for other inhabited planets- Mystara's invisible second moon, Patera, is home to Rakasta. The Pyrithians (ancestors of the Emerondians) live in one of the asteroid belts (I forget the name offhand). Khoronus is also said to have colonized another planet many thousands of years ago, with members of the Blackmoor civilization; one presumes that planet is either one of the planet's in Mystara's solar system, or nearby. I think Nyx was also an otherplanetary mortal, and the Diaboli are said to have colonized planets in the Mystaraverse. There is also the central hub of the galaxy (according to the Gold Box), which is millions of light years from Mystara (Mystara is on the outer rim), where, presumably, the Galactic Federation makes its home (the Beagle is from the GF)- though it has been speculated that the GF is actually from another dimension. >2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? Going from the above info, I've always assumed it was a Prime Plane civilization, centered in the hub of the galaxy, millions (or was it billions?) of light years away from Mystara. The Wrath of the Immortals boxed set makes it another dimension, though. In any case, I'd say that they are primarily centered in only one plane. There might be instances of plane-crossing technological advances (teleporter type things- maybe even along the lines of the parallel universe often seen in Star Trek), but those would be rare. >3) Is thunder-rift another plane or another planet? (ditto with forgotten realm and every other world, for that matter) As far as I recall, Thunder-Rift is a pocket plane or demi-plane. >4) Has anyone considered the effects of applying Relativity to magic in this kind of world? How do you mean? >5) What is a dimention? How do they differ from planes? Definitions of dimensions have changed over the years. In the Gold Box, they were exactly what they mean, definition wise. IE, the first dimension is height, second is width, third is breadth... from there it gets a bit confusing, but only because we mere mortals can't perceive them. The fourth would be a line perpendicular to the first three, same with the fifth, etc. Mortals live in the Fourth, but can only perceive three. Immortals live in the Fifth, but can perceive four. There is a Barrier (presumably created by the Old Ones) that blocks off the sixth and higher dimensions. In the Wrath of the Immortals, dimensions were just changed to be, essentially, parallel universes. There could be many planes in one dimension, in other words. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:37:04 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Well, I see a very interesting discussion (or sahring of opinions) trend ahead behind your answers... 1) 2) and 3) have already been nicely answered. 4) I have some suggestions to our List physicist (I quite far from professional Physics, I have a MA, but a girl friend of mine is and, as may physicists do, has a penchant for hours of talking abou time-travel, light speed and that funny cat in a poisoned cage...): A) Teleport spell and so on: IMC, I don´t allow instantaneous travel, only light-speed. It is nice, because it allows travel from one place to its antipodes in less than seconds. I suppose that the tapping of magic powers transmutes the caster´s mass into energy (if e=mc2 squared I mean), the magic source would provide enough energy to balance the equation (so that a 9th level caster can start with his minimum, a person´s average mass, and it gets bigger as his level increases). Reaching destination, energy turns again into matter. This system solves some BIG fuss about teleport spells: Teleporting from a lower to a higher place would harm the caster, because an increase in height gives potential energy to a body; as energy doesn´t vanish, it would appear in the form of heat of a magical outburst. Teleporting to the last story of your tower could kill you! It doesn´t happen if you are in "energy" form, because it is "burned" out in the transmutation back into matter (taking less "raw" magic power than the initial step) B) there is some objective evidence, as you probably know, about differences between subjective and objective time: there is a kind of micro-particule (sorry about mistakes, my scientific English is So bad...) coming from the highest layers of our athmosphere which can be also be found on Earth´s surface. Nothing strange, were not that when these particules are studied at rest (where all reference systems coincide), it is found that their "life cycle" would be too short to touch Earth before vanishing. Well, it is just a note to make happy would-be time travellers. They should, anyway, be aware of another hazard: planets, like Earth or Mystara, have a magnetic field, and it changes from time to time; in Prehistory, the Poles could be inverted or moved (it explicitly happened in Mystara, in an artificial way, when Blackmoor was destroyed). It is not very healthy to suddenly pop into a magnetically alien environment (I heard some big lizards of times past could have died from this...), you can develop a series of unpleasant and lethal diseases like cancer and you head would probably ache too much to be able to cast the spell back. Unless you can afford MANY Heal spells or you are an undead, stay safe at present... C) Dimensions: I agree with you. "Dimension" is an popular but unfortunate term. The only fantasy setting in which I have read a good treatment of planes and dimensions is the Corum saga by Michael Moorcock: all the 15 planes in Corum´s world overlap: You can see into (in AD&D terms) th Astral Plane without going away from the Prime, you only need "second sight". Space (our three dimensions) is a constant for the planes. Time-flow (4th dimension) may change (you get pretty old in faerie land, Rip van Winkle...) and, in fact, changing from plane to plane is putting a 5th axis into system. It is done through magic, perhaps tampering with densities and gravitation, so making a "black hole" which draws everything into it and makes it slide along the "5th axis". When talking about the oD&D "dimensions", I see that they could refer to other axis beyond the 5th. For instance, the Dimension of Nightmares. People in the Outer and Elemental Planes who can get to rest are able to sleep and dream, so it must be at the same level of all the others. Incompatibilities, like the Outer Planes not touching the Inner, would probably spring from incompatibilities in the equations defining the system and vector lines. I think that, whe it comes to the making of the Planes, we should turn to quantum Physics, although my knowledge of that is very feeble. Sorry for this longuish and perhaps boring message, but I am madly in love with a Physicist and I could not help it! Andrés Piquer Otero aka Virgilios Nikomenos, Cort Poet of Thyatis *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 1998 21:57:02 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim Can anybody send me information about Alfheim? I wanna know about what the Gaz tells about Alfheim. It's very urgent. Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:48:03 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions In a message dated 98-01-13 15:43:35 EST, alanderekjones@msn.com writes: >Thunder Rift was intended to be a place where novice DM's could start a >campaign and as such it was not milieu specific. I placed it in the mountains of Northern Karameikos. In fact my PC's still own a property in the town of Melnir..... I wonder if that dragon's egg has hatched yet Officially, Thunder Rift is an alternate Prime Plane -- in fact, one of the last Thunder Rift adventures has the adventurers make a brief visit to Karameikos in Mystara through a gate of some sort. But given the relatively small area covered by Thunder Rift, there are many places in Mystara where the entire region could be dropped in its entirety without disrupting things too much. My personal choice would be a valley in western Rockhome. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:48:07 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-13 18:57:00 EST, ANDREW.THEISEN@ASU.Edu writes: >Going from the above info, I've always assumed it was a Prime Plane >civilization, centered in the hub of the galaxy, millions (or was it billions?) of light years away from Mystara. Unless you are positing a galaxy much bigger than ours, "thousands" of light years would make more sense. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:48:05 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-13 18:09:32 EST, msouthon@soh.nsw.gov.au writes: >Aha! Conflicting answers! (See previous reply) Is it a >dimension-spanning or planet-spanning or plane-spanning civilisation? Do the resources contradict eachother? Yes, the sources do contradict one another. Early sources suggest that the Beagle came from elsewhere in the galaxy -- later sources suggest that it came from another plane or another dimension. Given the way the magical environment of Mystara is supposed to have modified the Nucleus and other parts of the Beagle, I would suggest that it reached Mystara by some means other than "normal" space travel. That also saves us the trouble of explaining why nobody ever came to Mystara looking for the Beagle. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:37:44 GMT From: mar0173@ibm.net Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions At 00:37 14/01/98 +0100, Andrés Piquer Otero wrote: >4) I have some suggestions to our List physicist (I quite far from professional Physics, I have a MA, but a girl friend of mine is and, as may physicists do, has a penchant for hours of talking abou time-travel, light speed and that funny cat in a poisoned cage...): You should call the cat undead :) >A) Teleport spell and so on: IMC, I don´t allow instantaneous travel, only light-speed. It is nice, because it allows travel from one place to its antipodes in less than seconds. I suppose that the tapping of magic powers transmutes the caster´s mass into energy (if e=mc2 squared I mean), the magic source would provide enough energy to balance the equation (so that a 9th level caster can start with his minimum, a person´s average mass, and it gets bigger as his level increases). Reaching destination, energy turns again into matter. This system solves some BIG fuss about teleport spells: Teleporting from a lower to a higher place would harm the caster, because an increase in height gives potential energy to a body; as energy doesn´t vanish, it would appear in the form of heat of a magical outburst. Teleporting to the last story of your tower could kill you! It doesn´t happen if you are in "energy" form, because it is "burned" out in the transmutation back into matter (taking less "raw" magic power than the initial step) When you go from lower to higher you increase your potential energy related to gravity. If you are telling the energy from the magic can't be used to compensate (it frequently does as in fly and levitation spells), you should LOSE energy, as that increase should come from somewhere. You'd get colder, not hotter. But any respectable wizard would account for that and research a new spell that covered this, after seeing it fail once. And you wouldn't lose that much energy to be noticeable anyway. >B) there is some objective evidence, as you probably know, about differences between subjective and objective time: there is a kind of micro-particule (sorry about mistakes, my scientific English is So bad...) coming from the highest layers of our athmosphere which can be also be found on Earth´s surface. Nothing strange, were not that when these particules are studied at rest (where all reference systems coincide), it is found that their "life cycle" would be too short to touch Earth before vanishing. Well, it is just a note to make happy would-be time travellers. WRONG! Yes, there is a difference in their proper time and we see the particles as lasting longer. However, in their own frame, they last as long as when in rest and there is no connection from here to possible time-travels. Unless you consider just travel to the future, as the particle seems to get there faster, but that's hardly what people mean by time-travel. Those are just the differences that arise from observing from different frames; there are no frames that would allow reverse of the time direction. Anyway, we all travel to the future at the rate of 24 hours per day, you know. You can change the rate, as in these and many other experiments (the same effect was also detected in airplanes, but there we have a diference of just a very small fraction of a second in hours), but you can't reverse the direction. Relativity doesn't allow that, and no other current physics theory does. That doesn't mean it has to be impossible, just that under the laws we have created to describe the universe so far, it doesn't happen. And these laws describe all these facts very precisely, as well as everything else. I'd prefer to live in a time where experiment and theory wouldn't agree, but I didn't have that luck... >C) Dimensions: I agree with you. "Dimension" is an popular but unfortunate term. The only fantasy setting in which I have read a good treatment of planes and dimensions is the Corum saga by Michael Moorcock: all the 15>planes in Corum´s world overlap: You can see into (in AD&D terms) th Astral Plane without going away from the Prime, you only need "second sight". Space (our three dimensions) is a constant for the planes. Time-flow (4th dimension) may change (you get pretty old in faerie land, Rip van Winkle...) and, in fact, changing from plane to plane is putting a 5th axis into system. It is done through magic, perhaps tampering with densities and gravitation, so making a "black hole" which draws everything into it and makes it slide along the "5th axis". When talking about the oD&D "dimensions", I see that they could refer to other axis beyond the 5th. For instance, the Dimension of Nightmares. People in the Outer and Elemental Planes who can get to rest are able to sleep and dream, so it must be at the same level of all the others. Incompatibilities, like the Outer Planes not touching the Inner, would probably spring from incompatibilities in the equations defining the system and vector lines. I think that, whe it comes to the making of the Planes, we should turn to quantum Physics, although my knowledge of that is very feeble. Rip van Winkle is the guy who slept one night and woke up one century later, right? That would be possible according to relativity, he would just have to travel VERY fast. But notice that this is just another trip to the future, not to the past. The problems with the planes doesn't require quantum physics but differential geometry. I thought about explaining it in my previous email, but that would be going too far. I'll give it a try, now that you brought it up. Remember my analogy with a book. Now let's examine the third dimension, to which we have no access. It doesn't have to be exactly equal to the first two, in the sense that each point of this dimension has a whole plane (the sheet) associated to it, but the planes doesn't really meet. The whole picture is called a manifold or a fiber-bundle, with each sheet being one fiber. The real problem with this is that the 3rd dimension is a continuum, so you don't have numbered but infinite planes, as in 1,2,3, ..., infinity, but you have infinite planes between 1 and 2 (Prime and Astral?), making the conversion somehow smooth, with infinite planes between them, changing from one to the other (if you will allow the change of planes, you would want a connection the planes and, unless you go to very weird, pathological cases, you will want to make the changes smooth). Of course, we may define a new mathematics where only the entire numbers exists as real planes, the ones between them being only mathematical entities with no real meaning that some alphatian wizards study to understand the travel between the planes better. And that could also explain why it is so difficult to travel between planes. Our 3 dimensions are continuous and easy to move around, to change planes you must jump the discontinuity. I am not sure if I made myself clear, but I'll not go on and transform this list into a disccussion of differential geometry. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:23:09 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Michael Southon wrote: many of these questions have been sufficiently answered earlier. I tend to agree with what Cthulhudrew wrote. >Concerning the prime material plane, >1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe Its a whole universe. I use the information from the old immortal set. This seems to fit well with Bruce Heards article in Dragon about space travel in Mystara. >2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? I'd say Prime Plane only. But if anyone comes up with a good idea which involves other planes, I'd be willing to accept it. >3) Is thunder-rift another plane or another planet? (ditto with forgotten realm and every other world, for that matter) I think the best way to treat it is as a pocket plane. >4) Has anyone considered the effects of applying Relativity to magic in this kind of world? Not me. Would it really matter in any way? I read that part about Teleport being only light speed travel, but I didn't care much for that idea. >5) What is a dimention? How do they differ from planes? Seems like there are two definitions and both apply to mystara. I wont go into detail here, but I generally use the dimensions as described in WotI as well as the mathematical ones. (Note that time is not the 4th dim.) I usually dont think about mystara in mathematical terms though... IMC the AD&D multiverse exists as another dimension.. Sincerely Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 1998 09:53:44 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions MY>Gudday, MY>Just a question to sir you brainiacs up: MY>Concerning the prime material plane, MY> 1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole MY>universe MY> 2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane MY>only) or plane-spanning civilisation? MY> 3) Is thunder-rift another plane or another planet? (ditto with MY>forgotten realm and every other world, for that matter) Thunder Rift appears in an adventure called "Escape from Thunder Rift". The players are in the BlackRocks (in think) and they have to escape entering in a portal that send them near ByWater. If you want to know more about the adventure I can send it to you. MY> 4) Has anyone considered the effects of applying Relativity to MY>magic in this kind of world? MY> 5) What is a dimention? How do they differ from planes? MY>Leadryl Dracos MY>*************************************************************************** MY>To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line MY>'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:42:18 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Michael Southon wrote: >I hate the Dimension term-abuse too. So A plane holds many planets, and a dimension (sigh!) holds many planes. Do the Immortals span the dimentions, or are they cooped up in thier own? It really does still depend on how you use the term dimension. According to the Immortals rules (gold box), there are an infinite number of dimensions, a dimension being a direction that is perpendicular to all others (get your head around that one). The Prime Plane is a 5 dimensional space because the Old Ones blocked off the rest of the infinite dimensions to use for themselves. Most mortals are 3 dimensional beings (length, width, depth). Teleport works by stuffing yourself into the forth dimension and zipping along there until you arrive where you want to be. The dimension of Nightmares is actually just the third, fourth, and fifth dimensions. Nightmare creatures (diaboli and others) only share the third dimension with conventional mortal reality, thus interaction is impossible without magic that allows a shift in dimensional perspective. And to top it all off, mortals have their own dimensional awareness shifted up one dimension while travelling in the astral plane. Everyone who is a 3 dimensional being existing in the 1st through 3rd dimensions would appear to be flat like a piece of paper because the mortal viewing them now sees the 2nd through 4th dimensions (whick allows one to see Nightmare creatures that may be travelling in the astral plane as well, though they would be flat as well). Immortals on the other hand are 4 dimensional beings. They would appear to be fully real to any mortal viewing them in the astral plane, not flat like standard 3 dimensional beings. This allows mere mortals to figure out that, hey, this person must be important. Personally, in my own campaigns, I use the term dimension very strictly in the way it is used in the gold box. The multiverse is the whole shebang, being a space with infinite dimensions that contains many planes. Part of it has been cut off from the rest. The planes themselves can be anywhere between 1 and 5 dimensional spaces. If I want to start getting into alternate realities, then I would probably look at the idea of a whole seperate multiverse, with its own set of dimensions. I guess alternate primes are also possible, but you are left with only one multiverse still. If I want to make use of the differences in cosmology across settings, whole seperate multiverses seems to be the way to go. As for the Beagle and the Federation it comes from, I have debated on how to work it in. I like the idea of just making the federation exist in the same galaxy, just _very_ far away. And, hey, if Gilligan can be marooned that long, who's to say Mystara will ever be discovered by the federation. Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:28:19 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra: Day 13 Operation Hydra: Day 13 Force A- Gen. Xerathas orders his troops to move out. The begin their march onto Minrothad City. They arrive by mid afternoon. Gen. Xerathas has them to take up positions around the capital. He focuses the artillery of 27th Cohort to focus in on one area of the Capital. He knows that the defenses are formidable and there is little hope that all artillery positions can be engage. This way, he hopes to focus multiple artillery pieces upon singular Minrothad artillery revetmants. Gen. Xerathas does position several ballista peices along the Lithwillow River to focus on shipping as well as the Sea Gate. Gen. Xerathas has little hopes of breeching the walls. His hopes are in laying a sucessful seige. This feeling is shared by most of Xerathas's staff and subordinate officers. Even Adm. Helena voices concern when she is landed and travels to the forward area to view the defenses. The naval units attached to cover the troops during the night set sail at dawn to join the other ships. Force B: The Thyatian landforces at Harbortown finish erecting their defenseworks around the city's perimeter. Artillery peices of 28th Assault Cohort are placed with range and the barrage is began. Gen. di Cicero conveys his previous days change of plan to Adm. Helena. She is furious at his acting without consent from herself. She does let the order stand. This is due to the validity of the move plus her own witnessing of Minrothad City. Adm. Helena does remind him to put such changes before her in the future. The troops of 20th Cohort under Gen. Valicius are enrout to Harbortown. They are still a days march away. They proceed at a steady march. They stop at the beachhead camp for the night and use its already prepared defenses. The Indigenous Banner under the command of Capt. Ostenphius continues onto Bright Cliff. From this day on, this aspect of Hydra will be referred to as Force E nicknamed Head "Ellana". It is named that by the troops after a popular Thyatian songstress. Force C: After an hour long bombardment, Gen. Nikkos order a renewed assault upon Malfton. This time, the assault force is a sizable one. Going in are 4th and 3rd Banners of 28th Cohort. Their task is to race toward the walls and establish a foothold inside the Malfton walls. Behind them, are 1st and 4th Banners of 6th Cohort. The foot infantry will rush behind the horse troops, using the dust stirred up dust to mask their numbers. With Gen. Trassis leading, the troops of 28th Cohort ride to the walls as the last volley leave the ballista. Behind them are the troops of 6th Cohort. The Kerendas troops penetrate the wall and force a sizable foothold. The troops of 6th Cohort arrive just behind them and work with them to expand this hold. The fighting is harsh but the Hin cannot match the troop quality of the Thyatians. Most fall back or are crushed by the steady press of the Thyatian wall. Despite the mismatch, the Thyatians are held as they must stop and clear each Hin burrow and shop. By nightfall, most of Malfton Proper is under Thyatian control. The exception is a small enclave opposite the Fortress of Prosperity Hill. The Thyatians are content to await til the next day to assault this final obstacle. Over in the Prosperity Hill Suburb, the marines sweep through the area and have it firmly in control. The only exception being the fort. The marines offload three ballista from their ships and set them up to fire upon the fort. This takes most of the day and nightfall cuts short any assault upon the fort. Gen. Nikkos is pleased by the advancements but feels some regret to the Hin. He has inspected the held portions of the town and had taken note of the crude weaponry. He orders that the Hin fought bravely and will be given the proper burial rights. During the night, a Thyatian small wargalley observes Hin swimming across the Quickhand. They stem from Malfton and appear to be heading for Prosperity Hill's fort. The wargalley gives a cry of alarm and begins firing upon the Hin. It is quickly joined by two other small galleys who focus their attentions upon the fleeing Hin. This action halts the swimming for the moment. However, several other groups are witnessed crossing the river during the night. Force D: Gen. Nikkos tells the troops of 14th Cohort are told that they are not expected to partake in any fighting to take Malfton. Gen. Nikkos tells Gen. Delagro (CO of 14th Cohort) that his men and women have done their part in regards of Cove Harbor. He aplauds their efforts and tells them "Job well done" in erasing the hated Privateers. He goes on to express his hopes that his own troops (6th and 28th Cohorts) can do so well. Then Gen. Nikkos tells Gen. Delagro that Force D is no more. Adm. Helena has ordered Force C and Force D to combine their forces into Force C. Force D will be assigned to the convoy ferrying the spoils of Cove Harbor back to Thyatis City. Speaking of the Loot Convoy, Adm. Pentalon is given command. The new Force D nicknamed "Denarius" after the Thyatian copper piece. Originally, Force D is composed of just a few ships. Adm. Pentalon objects at this and demands 5th and 23rd Fleet plus a number of unneeded transports. Adm. Corso and Gen. Nikkos confer and agree to allow Pentalon the use of 5th Fleet and several transports. Pentalon is furious but after a stern warning from Adm. Corso, not to mention speaking to Adm. Helena, he accepts the terms. The ships of 5th Fleet are stuffed with loot, prisoners, and wounded capable of the journey. Two transports are added to free up four sailing ships and two small galleys to act as an escort for the convoy. The Force sets sail that day for Thyatis City. It will be escorted out to sea by ships of 23rd Fleet until it reaches open water. The Thyatians are still wary of the Minrothad Naval Forces, not to mention the Privateers. With this in mind, Force D and its escort sail around the eastern side of Open Island in hopes of avoiding any Minrothad ships. By nightfall, the Force is north of Open Island. In Thyatis City, Emperor Eusebius is updated on Hydra by Adm. Helena. Things are going well. Minrothad City and Harbortown are under seige. Cove Harbor is a memory. Malfton is about to fall. And Pentalon is enrout to Thyatis City with the spoils of the Privateers. Eusebius is advised that a military governor will be need for Open Island once it is completely taken. At first, Eusebius suggests Adm. Pentalon, but Adm. Helena calls him a fool. Instead she suggests Gen. Nikkos. As she says, he is a good soldier as well as a fair man. Eusebius consents and orders it so. He tells Helena Daphotarthius to inform Gen. Nikkos of this after Malfton is completely under Thyatian rule. Emperor Eusebius sends two supply convoys to both Open Island and Trader Island. The Trader Island Convoy is composed of 10 sailing ships. The Open Island is composed of six. Each sailing ship is a converted merchant vessel. Each has had a ballista mounted onboard. Each is crewed by 25 nonfighting sailors. Defense is supplimented by 20 "green" Marines. Sailing through the dark, the Minrothad force sent to relieve Malfton begins arriving at it assembling point about 20 miles southwest of Open Island. By nighfall, all of the ships have joined up, the final being the 3rd and 4th Squadrons of 3rd Fleet sailing from Fortress Island. They had been slowed down by the Nithian Reef. The Strike Force has been codenamed the Malfton Expeditionary Force (MEF) by aspects of the venture. It is commanded by none other than the Master of Marines Matin Dirkson. Matin Dirkson will accompany the troops once they have landed. Control of the naval forces will go to the senior officer of each respective Squadron. Dirkson begins arranging his forces. The two HG regiments will land as usual. The Naval units will land most of of their marines to act as infantry to suppliment the HG regiments. Thanks to "reserve" status marines back on Gapton, 5 marines will be left aboard each ship to offer the vessel some protection against boarders. This will give the land force twenty platoons of 50 marines for a total of 1000 marines. Dirkson hates having to use all of the marines and leave his ships unprotected in the event of being boarded. With 1000 marines and 260 cavalry, 80 of which being rookies of the 3rd HG, he knows that his forces are still dreadfully small, he takes the gamble. The exact number of Thyatians are not known, but from the reports there is at least one regular Cohort and a contingent of cavalry. He estimates at least 3000 Thyatian troops. With the numbers against him, he takes the gamble regarding the ships. The ships will be hard pressed to stave off a concerted boarding attempt. He hopes that the ships' ballistae will suffice for protection. He has the Privateers but doesn't have a high level of confidence for them. Still, he has given orders that they be given self command in attacking the Thyatians. None of his officers will command them anyway and he suspects the pirates will spurn any form of military authority. The MEF sets a wide course to go around the southern tip of Open Island. They will land at a spot along the eastern coast. They will march onto Malfton. Dirkson doesn't like the thought of breaking through the Thyatian lines to join up with the Halflings. If his forces join the defenders, they will just add a burden to the populace. The rapid deployment limited the amount of food his forces carry. Each man carries but a weeks supply of food. If they are forced into a seige then they are in trouble. Another thing Dirkson dislikes is the term MEF. He berates his troops anytime he hears the slogan. He prefers the more military term of Minrothad Mercenary Force (MMF). The troops, mainly marines, have jumped upon this as well, and coined the initials to stand for "Matin's Misguided Fellows". This new nickname is kept from Dirkson, though he knows of it. In typical marine fashion, he likes it. Oran Meditor is updated on the MEF/MMF. He is pleased. He hopes for a victory that will break the invader's supply lines and force Thyatis to the peace table. In response to this, he contacts the Darokin Ambassador and asks if the DDC would be interested in negotiating a treaty. The ambassador forwards this message to Darokin City. Ever anxious to stick their noses into other nations business, the response is yes. The Darokin Ambassador in Thyatis City receives the request and has it passed onto the Emperor. Eusebius states that there is no need for the DDC yet. As he puts it it is too early for talk of peace. Eusebius does view the matter as a sign of weakness on the part of the Thadders. The Thyatian response is channelled back through Darokin and Minrothad. Chancellor Mauntea is obliged to wait. Oran Meditor is worried. He contemplates summoning the Thyatian Ambassador but opts to await the outcome of the Open Island offensive Dirkson is leading. If Dirkson suceeds, then perhaps the Thyatians will see the invasion as too costly. As night falls, Dirkson secludes himself in his cabin. He takes quill and ink and paper and begins writing a speech to his troops to be read prior to the landings. He hopes that it will give them a morale boost to help even the odds a bit. As the hours pass, his floor is covered with crumpled peices of parchment attesting to his dissatisfaction with his work. By midnight, the old marine has finished his speech. He makes several copies and sends one to each ship to be read later on. Dirksen then retires for the night. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #5 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, January 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 006 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] The Mighty Khan is back [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] NACE/Esterhold Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - Quoting Messages Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:21:58 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions Kaviyd wrote: >But given the relatively small area covered by Thunder Rift, there are many places in Mystara where the entire region could be dropped in its entirety without disrupting things too much. My personal choice would be a valley in western Rockhome. I haven't chosen a place for Thunder Rift yet, but that sounds as good as any. I do recall looking at the scale on the maps and figuring out that it would probably fit in one or two 24 mile hexes at most. I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but if the scale is indeed that, it would be very easy to put Thunder Rift just about anywhere. Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:48:00 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions I goofed. Looking at other reponses, I realized I had forgotten the whole "mortals-being-4-dimensional" thing and "immortals-being-5-dimensional. Oh well, its been a while.... Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:09:03 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Michael Southon wrote: >Previously on NYPD Blue: >>Wasn't Brainiac a bad guy? Just kidding. >Duh??? I'm sorry. I was referencing the old Jusice League cartoon from maybe 20 years back. >>>Concerning the prime material plane, >>>1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe >>Well according to the original rules (in which Mystara=Earth) there are 9 planets in the solar system with and additional (10th) planet between the Earth and Mars. Because it would be later destroyed its name was Damocles. >Is Mystara = Earth? Or have they dumped that one? >>>2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? >>The Federation is in the same galaxy but closer to the center. It >spans >hundreds of solar systems and thousands of planets. Mystara is a >backwater planet easily overlooked by the Federation. >Aha! Conflicting answers! (See previous reply) Is it a dimension-spanning or planet-spanning or plane-spanning civilisation? Do the resources contradict eachother? The resources contradict each other but the designers did apologize sort of. It makes me feel better anyway... But seriously: DA1, in which the whole Blackmoor campaign first appears, explains very clearly where the Beagle comes from. Not only is it from the same universe as the campaign world (only much later known as Mystara) but it is a huge planet spanning bureacracy. Anyone who has ever had trouble around tax time will be perfectly capable of understanding how the Beagle is lost and how the government is not even aware of the loss perhaps for at least 3000 years. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:11:00 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Michael Southon wrote: Sorry, I missed the middle question. >Previously on NYPD Blue: >>Wasn't Brainiac a bad guy? Just kidding. >Duh??? >>>Concerning the prime material plane, >>>1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe >>Well according to the original rules (in which Mystara=Earth) there are 9 planets in the solar system with and additional (10th) planet between the Earth and Mars. Because it would be later destroyed its name was Damocles. >Is Mystara = Earth? Or have they dumped that one? Mystara no longer equals Earth. That was indeed the original intention though. I believe enough players were opposed to the idea that they decided to quietly drop it. However it does certainly explain the general shape of the continents on the world map. >>>2) if the latter, Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation? >>The Federation is in the same galaxy but closer to the center. It >spans >hundreds of solar systems and thousands of planets. Mystara is a >backwater planet easily overlooked by the Federation. >Aha! Conflicting answers! (See previous reply) Is it a dimension-spanning or planet-spanning or plane-spanning civilisation? Do the resources contradict eachother? >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:14:15 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Michael Southon wrote: >Previously on NYPD Blue: >>4) I have no idea what you mean here. Relativity is just a theory of movement, both the Special and the General. They just describe how things move, the General taking in consideration the effects of mass and energy have in the space. There are a few odd consequences, certainly, but relativity is only about how things move. So, I can't see what you mean by consequences to magic. Not to mention a few important problems: - Unless you create a mathematical theory of magic, describing precisely how it works and what effects it has in the world, it would be hard to integrate the theory of relativity into magic. >>- There is instant travel in Mystara, so one of the most important basis of Relativity is gone, that being the speed of light as the limit for ANY movement. So, you can not use relativity in this contest. - If you use time travel, things get worse. All our science is based in cause-effect, meaning that any effect has a cause that happens BEFORE the effect. I know there are some physicists who talk about time travel, but it is pure non-sense. I am not saying time travel is impossible in our universe, but they disccuss the possibility of it based on science theories that suppose cause-effect is ALWAYS true. And if cause-effect is always true, then there is no time travel. Of course, the theories might be wrong, but anything you say about it will have to be pure speculation. This way, you can use Relativity as inspiration to your ideas, but you can't apply it to a fantasy world. At least not until you define the physics of it, including magic, also. >This is precisely what I meant, but there are some other interesting effects. Time, Matter and Energy are all inter-related, allowing you to screw with one by screwing with the others (move faster, time slows down etc). Since the Immortals are not entities of Time/Matter/Energy etc but people (I use that term loosely) who study those spheres of knowledge, then surely the three "physical" (time, matter, energy) spheres would grow fairly close on the advent of a theory of relativity being realised. >As these immortals have much greater control over thier spheres, then this leaves many interesting possibilities. >It also leaves a much broader scope for the interpretation and relationships between the three "physical" spheres, thought and entropy. >>5) That is one that always makes me angry. Dimension as used in any fantasy, comics or science fiction is NOT what fimension really means. Anyway, assuming the wrong definitions from the WotI, I can give you a better picture of it with an illustration. Imagine you are a being with only 2 spatial dimensions, living in a sheet of paper. That sheet of paper would be what people usually calls a plane. Now imagine your sheet is not alone, but is in a book, with many other sheet-planes next to it. As you live only in your sheet, you wil never know about it, but there might be ways to change sheets, so that you'd go to other planes. What WotI cals a dimension, would be the whole book. Other dimensions would be other books, with many sheet-planes inside it. That is a wrong use of the term dimension, as many other uses I have seen in many places including this list. But it is how someone who had no idea what he was talking about first understood it several decades ago and then spread this meaning to sci-fi, comics and fantasy. But I'll not try to explain why this is wrong, as this letter already got too long and too off-topic for the list. >I hate the Dimension term-abuse too. So A plane holds many planets, and a dimension (sigh!) holds many planes. Do the Immortals span the dimentions, or are they cooped up in thier own? >Also, does that mean that the beagle was one of the most powerful travelling vehicles ever, if it could travel between dimensions? Originally the Beagle was not from another "dimension" at all but from the characters' own universe. Also the very word dimension was closer to its true meaning. If you have the chance pick up the original Immortals boxed set. It is full of excellent (IMO) campaign material based on a mathematical definition of dimension and plane. Also, the "Mystaran" idea of the multiverse seemed more unique instead of (the way it is now) merely being another part of the AD&D universe. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:59:17 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions This discussion of astral travel and the dimension of nightmares as a shift in dimensional perspective totally fascinates me ... it's a cool way of using physics cleverly which I would like to use, except I see one problem: As far as I can tell, the human visual system requires all three dimensions in order to perceive anything at all in the 3 dimensional world - - look at it this way: if you lose depth from the visual field, this won't make it flat, it will take away the stimulus completely (because light moving through that dimension won't interact with the eye, right?) ... if you lose either width or length, you would just see an infinitely thin line either sideways or up&down, and you would see whatever other dimension around that, but you wouldn't perceive the real world as flat images at all - you would perceive it as ONE dimensional, because the second dimension would be the one you see it through. Does this make sense? think of it another way: to look at a two dimensional photo, you need a third dimension to view it, otherwise you would be IN THE PHOTO, which wouldn't work very well. on a related note, someone was talking about how adjacent planes should be infinite and incrementally similar ... I really like the idea of an infinite number of Mystaras for instance, each slightly different in some respects, blending away eventually into very alien realities .... perhaps the dimension of nightmares involves jumping too fast between these realities. is anyone a Zelazny fan? as i understand the workings of Amber magic, the idea is that you choose the world you want to be in and provide yourself with the reality you want to experience (or which is useful in your struggles with others) by locking in on elements of the world that you see and using them as a kind of stepping stone to an adjacent reality ... by doing this repeatedly you can slowly alter the world around you drastically and provide yourself with the things you want. now if ALL magic worked like that (with lower level casters just not as capable of the necessary focus to make big shifts), then that means that a highly magical world like Mystara is just one where people are moving back and forth from adjacent planes ALL the TIME ... it's kind of fuzzy along the fourth dimension, if you will. (or maybe the eighth dimension!) ... being a mage means being able to consciously manipulate the quantum uncertainties of the world around you, especially the movements of time, so that you get what you want. Being an immortal means reaching a state where you are ALWAYS doing this, and have assumed a certain kind of responsibility for the world and the lesser beings in it. Being an Old One means having a perceptual frame of reference so incomprehensibly vast that you can actually see things Immortals can't - including perhaps the future itself, or the minds of Immortals, etc. Maybe the Old Ones are even constantly manipulating the Immortals into doing things the Immortals THINK are in their interests ...kind of like the Immortals do to mortals. anyway i sense a SAN loss coming on so I think I will pause here. Any thoughts? m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:29:53 +0100 From: Staffan Johansson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions At 09:59 1998-01-14 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >This discussion of astral travel and the dimension of nightmares as a shift in dimensional perspective totally fascinates me ... it's a cool way of using physics cleverly which I would like to use, except I see one problem: As far as I can tell, the human visual system requires all three dimensions in order to perceive anything at all in the 3 dimensional world - look at it this way: if you lose depth from the visual field, this won't make it flat, it will take away the stimulus completely (because light moving through that dimension won't interact with the eye, right?) ... if you lose either width or length, you would just see an infinitely thin line either sideways or up&down, and you would see whatever other dimension around that, but you wouldn't perceive the real world as flat images at all - you would perceive it as ONE dimensional, because the second dimension would be the one you see it through. Does this make sense? think of it another way: to look at a two dimensional photo, you>need a third dimension to view it, otherwise you would be IN THE PHOTO, which wouldn't work very well. The thing is that the mortals still have a "third" dimension in which to preceive things, it's just that they don't exist themselves in that one. It's like this: First Second Third Fourth Fifth B Sixth... |Mortals exist here | A Old Ones |Mortals perceive here | R are here, |Immortals exist here | R IIRC |Immortals perceive here |I |Diaboli exist here |E |Diaboli perceive here | R That is when they're on the Astral plane, of course. Usually, IIRC, the perception is the same as existence. >anyway i sense a SAN loss coming on so I think I will pause here. Any thoughts? Wrong game :-) . I've already lost all my SAN anyway, so I don't bother. - -- Staffan Johansson (d96sj@efd.lth.se) Did you know that "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:14:31 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] The Mighty Khan is back Hi folks, you didn't hear anything about me for quite a while. Here is the explanation: The mad wizard Quantum sent me one of his Bigfoots to serve me. Unfortunately the poor creature died short before Christmas. I demanded a new one from the wizard, but he refused to send one. So I had to battle the wizard and finally he agreed to fulfill my will. He send me a Bigfoot, but it disappeared on the way. At this point the wizard from the Seagate send me one of his servants as a replacement. Now I have time enough to look to MML. As it should be quite a number of mails, it might take a long time before I will have checked all. If anybody said anything important for me personally, please consider repeating it. TIA Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:55:56 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia Has anybody an idea how it can work with not too many magic? The rivers fall into the void, but what happens to the water, and where comes the rain from? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:55:52 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] NACE/Esterhold To the editors of "The Mystaran Almanac". What will be the name of the republik of Esterhold? I suggest United States of Esterhold abbreviated to U.S.E. and the secret service could be named "USENET". Jamuga Khan "Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm proud to present now the President of the United States of Esterhold to you! Welcome, Mr President!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:34:28 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Staffan Johansson wrote: >The thing is that the mortals still have a "third" dimension in which to preceive things, it's just that they don't exist themselves in that one. It's like this: >First Second Third Fourth Fifth B Sixth... |Mortals exist here | A Old Ones >|Mortals perceive here | R are here, >|Immortals exist here | R IIRC >|Immortals perceive here |I >|Diaboli exist here |E >|Diaboli perceive here | R >That is when they're on the Astral plane, of course. Usually, IIRC, the perception is the same as existence. Great diagram! I think I'll have to print that one out. It really helps illustrate the idea of perception vs. existence when it comes to the dimensions. Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:38:29 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Quoting Messages To all: I'd like to make a comment about a bad quoting habit that seems to be prevalent among several of the estemed members of Mystara-L. Basically, I've been noticing an awful lot of replies where the entire original message has been left intact, with only three or four new lines added at the end, or (occationally) embeded in the middle of the text. I can't claim to speak for all Mystara-L members, but I can state that it is generally prefered by the members of many of the other mailing lists I belong to, that we see replies where the only quoted material that has been left in the message is that which is directly related to the reply. This not only saves bandwidth, and makes it easier to find the actual reply, but it also reduces the frustration level for those receiving the digest version -- they no longer have to read the same message four or five times over. I hope the list membership (and Leroy, our estemed leader) takes this note in the light it was intended -- one of a friendly suggestion among friends. :-) Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:41:12 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Matthew Levy wrote: >This discussion of astral travel and the dimension of nightmares as a shift in dimensional perspective totally fascinates me Yeah, me too. Though I am not an expert and never even really liked math all that much, I love it when math and science laws can be applied to our fantasy world. As far as I can tell, the human visual system requires all three >dimensions in order to perceive anything at all in the 3 dimensional world - look at it this way: if you lose depth from the visual field, this won't make it flat, it will take away the stimulus completely (because light moving through that dimension won't interact with the eye, right?) ... if Absolutely. This is very close to the way dimensions were defined in the original Immortals set. is anyone a Zelazny fan? My favorite series. Let's all have a moment of silence for the great master of fantasy: Roger Zelazny as i understand the workings of Amber >magic, the idea is that you choose the world you want to be in and provide yourself with the reality you want to experience (or which is useful in your struggles with others) by locking in on elements of the world that you see and using them as a kind of stepping stone to an adjacent reality ... by doing this repeatedly you can slowly alter the world around you drastically and provide yourself with the things you want. >now if ALL magic worked like that (with lower level casters just not as capable of the necessary focus to make big shifts), then that means that a highly magical world like Mystara is just one where people are moving back and forth from adjacent planes ALL the TIME ... it's kind of fuzzy along the fourth dimension, if you will. (or maybe the eighth dimension!) ... being a mage means being able to consciously manipulate the quantum uncertainties of the world around you, especially the movements of time, so that you get what you want. Being an immortal means reaching a state where you are ALWAYS doing this, and have assumed a certain kind of responsibility for the world and the lesser beings in it. Being an Old One means having a perceptual frame of reference so incomprehensibly vast that you can actually see things Immortals can't - including perhaps the future itself, or the minds of Immortals, etc. Maybe the Old Ones are even constantly manipulating the Immortals into doing things the Immortals THINK are in their interests ...kind of like the Immortals do to mortals. Neat ideas. You blow my mind. >anyway i sense a SAN loss coming on so I think I will pause here. Any thoughts? >m@2 >"You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" >- said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:47:56 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Staffan Johansson wrote: >At 09:59 1998-01-14 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >>This discussion of astral travel and the dimension of nightmares as a shift in dimensional perspective totally fascinates me ... it's a cool way of using physics cleverly which I would like to use, except I see one problem: As far as I can tell, the human visual system requires all three dimensions in order to perceive anything at all in the 3 dimensional world - look at it this way: if you lose depth from the visual field, this won't make it flat, it will take away the stimulus completely (because light moving through that dimension won't interact with the eye, right?) ... if you lose either width or length, you would just see an infinitely thin line either sideways or up&down, and you would see whatever other dimension around that, but you wouldn't perceive the real world as flat images at all - you would perceive it as ONE dimensional, because the second dimension would be the one you see it through. Does this make sense? think of it another way: to look at a two dimensional photo, you need a third dimension to view it, otherwise you would be IN THE PHOTO, which wouldn't work very well. >The thing is that the mortals still have a "third" dimension in which to preceive things, it's just that they don't exist themselves in that one. It's like this: >First Second Third Fourth Fifth B Sixth... |Mortals exist here | A Old Ones >|Mortals perceive here | R are here, >|Immortals exist here | R IIRC >|Immortals perceive here |I >|Diaboli exist here |E >|Diaboli perceive here | R >That is when they're on the Astral plane, of course. Usually, IIRC, the perception is the same as existence. Lesse, as I recall the first explanation in the old rules was the way dimensions work in general. To perceive a line (1 dimension: length) you need a plane (length and width) but to perceive that plane you need a 3rd dimension (like a piece of paper for instance). Theorizing from those 3 easy to imagine dimensions we can postulate a 4th dimension in which we prime plane mortals exist. So we exist in the first 4 dimensions. The Diaboli overlap our dimensions but exist further out. This is what makes them so repugnant to normals and vice versa. One more explanation of dimensions: Spells. A levitate spell is 2 dimensional travel. A fly spell is 3 dimensional travel. Teleport accesses the 4th dimension and a special astral teleport accesses the 5th dimension. The teleport spell is similar to the idea of the tesseract. >>anyway i sense a SAN loss coming on so I think I will pause here. Any thoughts? >Wrong game :-) . I've already lost all my SAN anyway, so I don't bother. Not aware of the game. >-- >Staffan Johansson (d96sj@efd.lth.se) >Did you know that "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up. You very nearly got me! >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:12:21 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions << >But given the relatively small area covered by Thunder Rift, there are many places in Mystara where the entire region could be dropped in its entirety without disrupting things too much. My personal choice would be a valley in western Rockhome. I started my first campaign with the Thunder Rift. After it became a major campaign i decided where to place it in Mystara, and i put it north of the known world. It made it easier for me to start detailing more of Brun with that. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:36:25 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia JamugaKhan wrote: >Has anybody an idea how it can work with not too many magic? >The rivers fall into the void, but what happens to the water, and where comes the rain from? Not to be disrespectful to the mighty khan, but... huh? >Jamuga Khan >"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:42:42 +0100 From: Staffan Johansson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions At 14:47 1998-01-14 -0800, jdaly wrote: >>>anyway i sense a SAN loss coming on so I think I will pause here. Any thoughts? >>Wrong game :-) . I've already lost all my SAN anyway, so I don't bother. >Not aware of the game. Call of Cthulhu. A game based on H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos, where the stories usually are told from the perspective of an investigator who gradually goes mad when he discovers the secrets of the universe. In the game, this is mimicked by a stat called SAN (Sanity), that starts out equal to the character's POW x5 (on a 3d6 system) and is gradually reduced by meeting horrible monsters, reading evil books, casting the occasional spell, etc. - -- Staffan Johansson (d96sj@efd.lth.se) Did you know that "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:53:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-13 18:57:00 EST, ANDREW.THEISEN@ASU.Edu writes: >>Going from the above info, I've always assumed it was a Prime Plane >>civilization, centered in the hub of the galaxy, millions (or was it billions?) of light years away from Mystara. >Unless you are positing a galaxy much bigger than ours, "thousands" of light years would make more sense. Err... That's what I meant. Really. I mean it. Okay, so I'm not an astrophysicist. :p Seriously, though, I'll have to recheck, but I thought the Gold Box said the hub was millions of light years away; maybe it was talking about another galaxy? Or- and this is entirely possible- maybe I'm misremembering. Thousands does seem to have a certain ring to it, now that I think on it. In any case, if it were thousands (and probably is) that would still mean that it would take the Federation thousands of years to discover Mystara, presuming that the disappearance of the Beagle is eventually noted, and a rescue mission sent out. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #6 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, January 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 007 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Dragon Magazine Index RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Quoting Messages Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara PBeM Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:06:32 -0000 From: "Alan Jones" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Dragon Magazine Index Is there a on-line index of TSR's Dragon magazine? Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon "May you live in interesting pants." http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:32:47 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Reorganizing my thoughts after yesterday´s rush of mad Mystaran Physics: 1) I forgot to mention (took for granted) that with my reference to subjective time variations, you can only travel to the future! At least you travel faster. I think that the AD&D rule about aging after casting some spells reflects this: Haste (it does not give ultra-speed, it changes pace in your subjective timeline, so that you see everybody move slower; if it were just ultra-speed, you would lose accuracy and have attack penalties, no bonuses, for instance; you don´t see yourself acting faster). 2) I like the idea of Matt about seeing infinite Mystaras, each slightly different from the other. Perhaps people think of having travelled to the "past" (something impossible to me, too, because magic should follow cause-effect rules, too), but they have just slipped to a "paralell Mystara". I think that it could be done with a Wish spell: its casting opens an instantaneous duct through layer after layer along a dimension (in the strict term of it) of probability to get to the Mystara of their choosing. The usual use of a Wish teleports the effect back to their own coordenates (10.000 gold ducats or a friend resurrected), but it could also plunge the wizard into the new position (it is the typical DM "punishment" for wishing someone dead: the wizard is plunged to a probability Mystara in which the enemy no longer lives), which could have a different timing pace. So wording is so important, some ambiguity and the consequences of the result won´t please you. 3) This takes us to seeing magic as a tampering (as Matt suggested) on the laws of probability: a) mortals must act to know (not guess) the results of their actions. b) magic can temporally make us know and then decide the laws of probability beforehand. It is done through eldritch systems (everyone could fall dead on the spot at any time; Power Word Kill just alters the probability of it at the whims of the caster), but any spell is a reduced form of Wish. Mages don´t think of it like that and they explain it through symbology, sympathy and so on. Only the true powerful see that they can do anything (9th lvl Wish) as long as they negotiate well along a dimensional axis to the probability of their choosing. So magic is a mystical and ritual form of Physics, as Alchemy was a ritual and symbolized granny to modern Chemistry. c) An Immortal has an innate power to control probability at his whim. They know the results of their actions without performing them (only when facing another immortal things may go awry). They can toy with mortals, changing their chances at their whim. d) Old Ones know results of their actions *without conceiving them* : they exist symultaneously and conciounsly in all "probability Mystaras". You know, during the Middle Ages, there was a debate about God being able to change the Past. An Immortal cannot, an Old One could, they exist in all times that have, do, will, can, could and could have happened. Mortals are mortal, Immortals are immortal and Old Ones are eternal, al due to their control over probability and uncertainty. Not very scientific, but nice for role-playing. There are a lot of possibilities springing from this idea. I hope you come along and share them. Virgilios Nikomenos aka Andrés Piquer Otero *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:05:45 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >This discussion of astral travel and the dimension of nightmares as a shift in dimensional perspective totally fascinates me ... it's a cool way of using physics cleverly which I would like to use, except I see one problem: As far as I can tell, the human visual system requires all three dimensions in order to perceive anything at all in the 3 dimensional world - look at it this way: if you lose depth from the visual field, this won't make it flat, it will take away the stimulus completely (because light moving through that dimension won't interact with the eye, right?) ... if you lose either width or length, you would just see an infinitely thin line either sideways or up&down, and you would see whatever other dimension around that, but you wouldn't perceive the real world as flat images at all - you would perceive it as ONE dimensional, because the second dimension would be the one you see it through. Does this make sense? think of it another way: to look at a two dimensional photo, you need a third dimension to view it, otherwise you would be IN THE PHOTO, which wouldn't work very well. This is actually noted in the Gold Box. It mentions that, while humans are indeed three dimensional creatures (ie, can perceive the 1st through 3rd dimensions), they exist (as they must) in 4 dimensional space. Immortals are 4 dimensional creatures (perceiving 4 dimensions) but exist in 5 dimensional space. Nightmare creatures, as humans, are 3 dimensional, existing in 4 dimensions, but whereas humans live in the 1st through 4th dimensions, Nightmare creatures live in the 5th through 2nd dimensions. As the Nightmare's third dimension roughly corresponds (from their point of view) to Humans' third dimension, there is some occasional overlap between the two peoples. As I understand it. (Conversely, as humans can't perceive their 4th, and Nightmare creatures can't perceive their 4th- humans 2nd- there is no overlap there. I suppose Nightmare Immortals and Human Immortals would share two dimensions, though.) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:35:46 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions mar0173@ibm.net pontificated: >When you go from lower to higher you increase your potential energy relat= ed >to gravity. If someone want to be really realistic, the kinetic energy also increase when you gets higher, as you are farther outside of the spinning sphere (assuming the world is a sphere, I guess). Also, teleporting towards the equator will also increase the kinetic energy. However, personally, unless I'm playing a game with all engineers, who might enjoy this type of thing, I think fantasy should probably remain as fantasy and not worry too much about matching it with physics. >but >you can't reverse the direction. Relativity doesn't allow that, and no ot= her >current physics theory does. I havne't had modern physics in a while, but I thought relativity doesn't care which direction time flows? - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:14:10 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-14 17:09:18 EST, ANDREW.THEISEN@ASU.Edu writes: >In any case, if it were thousands (and probably is) that would still mean >that it would take the Federation thousands of years to discover Mystara, presuming that the disappearance of the Beagle is eventually noted, and a rescue mission sent out. That depends on just how fast the Federation ships can travel -- we would have to assume some sort of FTL (faster than light) travel, or else the time required for the journey would be too long to justify the trip itself. And if they can make the trip in a reasonable amount of time once, they can do it again in fairly short order. For that reason I would have to assume either that the Beagle started out in another dimension and met with some sort of accident or that it "misjumped" in a way that is not easily reproduced. But the simple fact is -- in order for nobody to have tracked down the Beagle from the Federation for several thousand years, then the Mystara system must be one that they were not deliberately trying to reach and that they were very unlikely to have entered by chance. The only other alternative that I can think of would be a complete collapse of Federation civilization shortly after the Beagle left, but that explanation would raise even more questions that it answered. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:43:53 GMT From: mar0173@ibm.net Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions At 20:35 14/01/98 -0500, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >If someone want to be really realistic, the kinetic energy also increase when you gets higher, as you are farther outside of the spinning sphere (assuming the world is a sphere, I guess). Also, teleporting towards the equator will also increase the kinetic energy. However, personally, unless I'm playing a game with all engineers, who might enjoy this type of thing, I think fantasy should probably remain as fantasy and not worry too much about matching it with physics. If you go up naturally without any kind of propulsion, your kinetic energy gows down, as you will lose speed. But, as you get up there and you are at rest when compared to the earth, your kinetic energy doesn't change at all. Unless you are refering to the negligible effect that, being a little higher, your distance to the center of Mystara would ba slightly bigger, meaning a slightly bigger velocity of rotation. But that would be a VERY small variation. >>but >>you can't reverse the direction. Relativity doesn't allow that, and no ot= her >>current physics theory does. >I havne't had modern physics in a while, but I thought relativity doesn't care which direction time flows? It does care in a sense. Yes, mathematically there is no difference in the treatment of both directions (we even represent antiparticles as particles going to past, not that they are really doing it, but it is useful due to some symmetries involved in this problem), but once you are going to the future, there is no way you can reverse it, you can just make your trip faster. But, I must make it clear that this is just our current theories. They don't have to apply to fantasy worlds and I personally agree I wouldn't use them in my game, and I used to play with a group of physicists. Also even our world doesn't have to obey these laws. These are just what we have observed so far and the conclusions drawn from there and the fact that the experiments match the theories quite well doesn't mean they will always do for any experiments. I did get a little carried away, as the misuse of the term dimension really bothers me, the same way I get bothered EVERY time I watch or read scientific news in the normal media. I don't know how it is in your country, but outside specialized magazines or such, everything that is taken to a greater public here is wrong in some way. So, be careful when saying you are borrowing ideas from physics, as you were probably misinformed. But, of course, you can make all the physical laws in your game, so however way you say things happen there, they do. Even if it is completely contrary to our world or to common sense. Our own world works in many ways that are completely contrary to common sense. Andre Martins *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:50:18 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >Has anybody an idea how it can work with not too many magic? >The rivers fall into the void, but what happens to the water, and where comes the rain from? Didn't we talk about this last year? Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:53:26 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Quoting Messages On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >To all: Well spoken Jenni. Its something that has annoyed me for a while. Peace Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:43:54 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara PBeM When do you plan to start? I might be interested, too. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:43:55 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World << Alphatia is a more..well..snobbish society. Only mages are really treated with respect and everyone else is dirt, even if related to the royalty. >> Not again please! GLANTRI is the realm of mages! ALPHATIA is the empire of spellcasters! You see the difference? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:01:54 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia << No, but the amount of military might that Alphatia threw around in the _Wrath of the Immortals_ war is comparable to what the USA could do in the real world. And I do see another parallel -- if we regard the Known World as corresponding to Europe, the US fits in well as a large and powerful country that is located on another continent. >> At least the Known World countries (including Thyatis mainland, excluding Sind, Heldann and Wendar, of course) are as small as Europe. BTW, Scandinavia and the Arabian Peninsula are not neighbours, but please compare latitudes in Europe and America. You might find some interesting facts. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:01:55 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia << Did Alphatia conquer Belisaria? I mean aside from the initial invasion of the Alphatians against the Cypri savages? >> No, and there was no such thing like Cypri savages on Mystara. The Cypri came together with the pure Alphatians from the original home and wascivilized and the main body of the Alphatians. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:29:29 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >The Diaboli overlap our dimensions but exist further out. This is what makes them so repugnant to normals and vice versa. while we're on the topic of Diaboli, I wanted to mention an episode of Star Trek Voyager that I watched last night ... not sure if it was new or a rerun. The premise was that a race of aliens who were constantly asleep attacked the crew in their dreams ... they forced everyone into the same nightmare (so they had a collective unconscious) and then wouldn't let them wake up. They did this because they were a race who slept all the time in the "real world", communicating through dreams, and they were afraid the "normal" races would find their sleeping places and kill them ... so they preemptively struck in nightmares, causing the "wakers" to waste away of starvation while they dreamt. As usual, the episode was kind of low-quality writing and acting, but the premise was neat ... and well suited to the notion of a nightmare dimension in Mystara. What if there were some creature or race in Mystara who behaved this way, attacking through nightmares when waking creatures approached its lair too closely? >>>anyway i sense a SAN loss coming on so I think I will pause here. Any thoughts? >>Wrong game :-) . I've already lost all my SAN anyway, so I don't bother. >Not aware of the game. Call of Cthulhu. SAN stands for sanity and it's what you lose when you discover things you weren't ready to know about. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:49:57 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >In any case, if it were thousands (and probably is) that would still mean that it would take the Federation thousands of years to discover Mystara, presuming that the disappearance of the Beagle is eventually noted, and a rescue mission sent out. no it wouldn't, if the Federation has warp drive (which I would guess they do). I have another idea ... what if the Federation really is the UFP from Star Trek? The hint is so thinly veiled I think we might as well use this (especially since we are being unofficial, so WotC/TSR can't get sued by Paramount). What if Mystara were in a section of frontier space once accesible to the Federation, but later "blocked off" by shifts in Galactice politics ... perhaps its a backwater within or beyond the boundaries of the Klingon or Romulan Empires (or the Cardassian, Gorn, or some other now-defunct Empire in the past) ... or maybe it's in the Gamma Quadrant and the Beagle went through the Bajor wormhole ... If any of these is true, it presents the small but real possibility of an attempted colonization of Mystara by Klingons, Jem'Hadar, etc. ... but then again, with Immortals around, that wouldn't likely succeed very well. Are there any Star Trek fans who remember the Organians from the original series? They were a race of super-powerful but peaceful energy beings (lawful Immortals?) who "lived on" a medieval-like world that Kirk was fighting the Klingons over ... they were both arguing over who could "develop" the planet better. The Organians were able to disarm both sides and force them to the negotiating table. But what if aliens like the Federation or the Klingon Empire visited a planet with powerful immortal beings who were fighting each other (WotI?) and got caught up in the conflict? If things came down to it, some of the more "rogue" immortals, like Alphaks or Rad or Atzanteotl or Arachne Prime, might not be above violating Immortal law to make an alliance with a race that has access to photon torpedoes ... Can you imagine what Glantrians would do with that kind of power? Interesting implications for the future ... but then photon torpedoes are just so *destructive*, and we want a campaign that keeps on going, even if it keeps getting constantly rearranged, right? So how about Ferengi traders trying to break into the Mystara market? They might even choose to trade with Goblinoids (who look less alien to them) rather than with humans ... now imagine Kobolds with phasers .... aaarrrggghhhhhhhh! bree-yark!, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:01:56 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments << what about druids? (who are neither good nor evil) >> Who said this??? In D&D they are neither lawful nor chaotic, but this don't mean that there are not neutral good and neutral evil druids. Jamuga Khan "Druids! Who needs druids if he has shamans?" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:01:50 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia << Didn't we talk about this last year? >> Last year? Long ago!! The point is, I've forgotten that I asked this question before. I knew I had the intention, but I thought I hadn't do before the breakdown. I've found my question already and finally I will find your answer (I hope). Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:01:53 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia << Any other ideas? Theories? >> One! After making waterfalls the water rains down on the underside and finally ends in a big lake, from it dissipates. But than it would be necessary to have a reversed gravity on the underside, more Spelljammer than Mystara style. Anyhow, what about mages' towers on the underside (hanging towers) ? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:01:56 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route << Yes this is important, and the issue of economic interest is a good point (no oil means different politics) ... what about the Selenica Caravan route? this seems to be the key strategic resource in the region, especially in times when the Streel River trade is insecure (because of Ethengar militarism) ... everything coming from the Northern reaches, Rockhome, and Ylaruam has to move over the mountains from Makistan to Darokin. Either or both groups of elves could threaten this caravan trade. >> The Selenica Caravan Route should decrease dramatically in importance as Ylaruam is now closed to foreigners? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:21:07 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Known World At 12:43 PM 1/15/98 EST, JamugaKhan wrote: ><< Alphatia is a >more..well..snobbish society. Only mages are really treated with respect and everyone else is dirt, even if related to the royalty. >> >Not again please! GLANTRI is the realm of mages! ALPHATIA is the empire of spellcasters! You see the difference? Of course. The difference is that in GLANTRI, only mages (i.e., Magic Users) are treated with respect while in ALPHATIA, anyone capable of spellcasting (i.e., Magic Users, Clerics, Palidins, and probably Shaman and Wokani now that I think about it) would be treated with the utmost respect. Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:15:15 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >Staffan Johansson wrote: >>The thing is that the mortals still have a "third" dimension in which to preceive things, it's just that they don't exist themselves in that one. It's like this: this helps somewhat, but not completely. What you are saying is that when a mortal shifts one dimension into the astral plane, they become two dimensional to ordinary sight (and thus probably look like a duo-dimensioned wizard, invisible from the side) ... this requires a bit of stretching of our ordinary physics notion of light, since my presupposition would be that an infinitely thin (two-dimensional) object could not possibly reflect light since there would be no substance for the light to bounce off of ... maybe this means astral travellers are completely invisible? I guess this makes sense. Or we can simply ignore the particle version of light since this is a fantasy world. But the real problem to my mind comes when we say that the person can now "see" into the fourth dimension ... it's hard for me to conceive of how that would work. If they're still going to see the physical world, then as I've pointed out they have to retain all three dimensions for sight to work at all, and if you ADD a fourth dimension to sight, how would that "appear"? I guess I just can't "visualize" it (all irony intended). But if you SHIFT a dimension so that you can SEE into the astral plane, that would mean completely giving up normal sight into the physical world (for the reasons I've pointed out). I'm not a big expert on the astral plane anyway ... in common literary/game descriptions, can you normally "see between two worlds" or is it more of an intuitive sense? sorry for all the questions, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:46:01 -0600 From: "Galwylin" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Depends on your perspective. Druids are good basically but if a city is increasing encroaching into a protected forest, a druid might possibly release some of nature's fury and kill a few inhabitants. Some might see that as evil but it's really self-protection of the forest which the druid is trying to remain in symbiosis with. In regards to nature, a druid is lawful to nature which men see as neutral to society. Then there's also the possibility of fanaticism on the part of the druid so that his actions seem overtly harsh. There a good bit of play within the confines of neutrality and good. Evil on the other hand is too absorbed in it's self to enable a druid to fulfill his position effectively. - ------------------------------------------------------------ This has been a Galwylin© Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ ICQ #6755972 Vote for the Mystara Netlogo! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm - -----Original Message----- From: JamugaKhan To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 2:03 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments >In D&D they are neither lawful nor chaotic, but this don't mean that there are not neutral good and neutral evil druids. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:30:18 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions this whole discussion of phantasy fysics is getting REALLY INTERESTING. I must admit that much of what I know about Physics is "pop science", but what I do know something about is philosophy and ideas about magic and how these relate back to physics. There is something very essential about the notion of magic as manipulation of probability which Andres has elaborated ... there is a basic idea that, no matter what the laws of physics, there is always an infinite range of possibilities, and our possible futures are always limited only by our ability to perceive and manipulate those possibilities. This shows up, among other places, in Douglas Adams' Hitchiker novels, in witchcraft, in Zelazny's Amber series, well actually all over the place. I am not sure if I can really explain what I am talking about because I always start ranting about psionics and Zen Buddhism and LSD trips and quantum physics and all sorts of other stuff and sound like I'm full of shit (which I often am). Let's just say that a view of magic which I find plausible for a fantasy universe would ultimately rest upon the view that Andres has presented, and it would not matter what the "normal" physical laws were ... all that would matter would be the number of individuals who had a complex understanding of the nature of parallel realities and the ability to shift between planes along a dimensional axis (which would appear to be nothing other than casting spells in one ordinary plane) ... but the funny thing about this view is that it leaves out a very interesting problem in the idea of "control" ... as we know, wishes don't always get us what we really wanted, because they bring us unexpected consequences. This is the key way that DM's maintain control over the world in D&D ... but then, this is true of all of D&D, even when spells aren't being cast. The DM as storyteller/God manipulates the situation to stay within some range of possible plots, but she must always work with (rather than against) the unruly wills of the players to get there. Some views of this world say this is how the real universe works (even when we think we are simply individuals, there is still a "divine plan" that incorporates our actions ... think of Kant, or Adam Smith, or Hinduism, or whatever) Now I am getting crazy again. I think of the philosopher Schopenhauer, who wrote about "The World as Will and Idea". His central premise was that if we want to see the world as completely rational, predictable, calculable, scientific, and orderly (as corresponding perfectly to a set of "ideas"), what we leave out is the "will" that makes us want to see it that way, that motivates our consciousness, that (if you want to take the argument to its conclusion) makes us limit our own possible futures. We make our will mysterious and turn it into the subconscious and into instincts which we think are incomprehensible and unmasterable. In doing so, we surrender control over our own wishes to a subconscious which we think is eternal and immutable (think of Darwinian survival of the fittest, or Freud's erotic and thanatic drives - both were influenced by Schopenhauer) and thus lose the control over our own fate which we start out seeking. Now, in a world where mages seek control over their own destiny through various forms of ritual, one of the most important problems they would face would be the task of mastering their own subconscious will ... let's say a mage keeps continually wishing for more power and keeps having parts of his body replaced by cybernetic prostheses which make him stronger but also deaden his feelings and make him psychotic. We can interpret this as the DM seeking to limit player greed, but we can furthermore say that perhaps this mage consciously desires more power, but subconsciously desires to destroy his own humanity (which he perceives as weak and vulnerable) ... then in order to gain the power he seeks without in the process destroying himself, he must learn to be conscious of and finally to gain mastery over his own subconscious self-loathing. An older, pre-Freudian way of saying this would be to say that the mage must recognize the limitations of his own will and learn to align himself with the will of God, not against it, so that he may acheive inner peace. yes i realize i am not explaining this well... but i hope you recognize what i am circling around in some form because i think these kinds of philosophical or magical questions are much older than Mystara or D&D and gaming is a wonderful place to explore them. anybody game for psychomasochistic planar probability surfing? m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #7 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:47:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #8 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Friday, January 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 008 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimensions Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes [MYSTARA] - Idea for skills RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? [MYSTARA] - Classic | Original D&D Campaigns [MYSTARA] - Jews of Mystara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:27:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >That depends on just how fast the Federation ships can travel -- we would have to assume some sort of FTL (faster than light) travel, or else the time required for the journey would be too long to justify the trip itself. And if they can make the trip in a reasonable amount of time once, they can do it again in fairly short order. For that reason I would have to assume either that the Beagle started out in another dimension and met with some sort of accident or that it "misjumped" in a way that is not easily reproduced. My understanding (and I forget exactly what DA3 says about it) is that the Beagle slipped through some sort of spatial anomaly- a wormhole (a la Voyager), or something- and ended up thousands of light years away from Federation space. To borrow even further from the Star Trek-verse- even given some form of FTL travel (a la warp speed), I'd say it's still significantly slower than say, a teleport or dimension door spell- ie, it would still take an extremely long time to reach Mystaraspace. 'Course, it's been almost 4000 years now, maybe they'll turn up in the near future? Who knows, but it could make for an interesting campaign... - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:45:56 -0500 From: "Mr. Brunciak" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kaviyd wrote: <<>> <> Well our galaxy is 100,000 light years in diameter (WOW!) so if the Federation is near the hub and Mystara is near the edge like Earth, then they'd be about 40k-50k light years apart. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:46:07 -0500 From: "Mr. Brunciak" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions Inconu wrote: <> I also started my first campaign in Thunder Rift. In fact, I began DMing and playing there as well. Many people find it too simple and for beginners. While this may be true, the area is great for any low level role-playing and a great place to introduce new players to D&D. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:45:38 -0500 From: "Mr. Brunciak" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Matthew Levy wrote: > Hey why not? There's plenty of room left in the galaxy that thousands of world can exist. Mystara is a real planet after all :) > Hey I actually remember that one! (somewhat) I think though that Immortals would be powerful enough to prevent such a thing like a starship from even coming close to Mystara (Hey this is our part of theMultiverse!) Fascinating ;:-] (A bad Spock with eyebroe raised) Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:45:27 -0500 From: "Mr. Brunciak" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route <> Why? As I see it, just because a nation closed its borders off won't stop or even deter merchants, especially in Darokin. On top of this, Darokin needs to recover from the Great War of Wrath and keeping the route busy would be very beneficial. The NACE is a great new market and so is Karameikos what with its flourishing state. The route would just be redirected to head south from Selenica to Karameikos. Goods from up north would be diverted from Ylaruam to Rockhome down the Nithian and Larodar rivers to Selenica. Nothing stops business and the opportunity to become rich. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:46:20 -0500 From: "Mr. Brunciak" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions jdaly wrote: >Staffan Johansson wrote: >>It's like this: >>First Second Third Fourth Fifth B Sixth... |Mortals exist here | A Old Ones >>|Mortals perceive here | R are here, >>|Immortals exist here | R IIRC >>|Immortals perceive here |I >>|Diaboli exist here |E >>|Diaboli perceive here | R Okay, let's see if I have this: We exist in four dimensions, length, width, height and time. Yet we can only perceive three of these. We cannot see time but know of its existence because we see its effects. So this means that the diagram would be reversed: We are in four dimmensions yet perceive three, Immortals exist in five dimmensions and perceive four. How does this sound? Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:45:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >Are there any Star Trek fans who remember the Organians from the original series? They were a race of super-powerful but peaceful energy beings (lawful Immortals?) who "lived on" a medieval-like world that Kirk was fighting the Klingons over ... they were both arguing over who could "develop" the planet better. The Organians were able to disarm both sides and force them to the negotiating table. For that matter, the Q Continuum seem very much like Immortals- mostly hands off observers, save for the occasional rogue (John DeLancie's Q) that interferes with them. Heck, in ST:TOS, there was that episode about the Olympian Gods (with Apollo)- there are any number of creatures in the ST series that would fit the classification of Immortals... anyone want to be that Kahless, Klingon Hero, actually ascended to Immortality? Again, I'll postulate the theory that the Beagle fell through a wormhole similar to the Voyager... - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:52:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? Here's a little something I noticed recently. I haven't had much opportunity to do anything with it, but maybe we all can contemplate it for a bit. I've noticed that there are a number of Stonehenge-like monuments located all over the Known World- the Stones of Sky in Vestland(from GAZ7 and X13); the Septahenge in the Broken Lands (from M5 and mentioned- though not by name- in the Red Orcland entry in GAZ10); the rock formation on the hill of Ringrise, in the Five Shires (from GAZ8). All of these formations are mentioned as being ancient, their origins shrouded in mystery, and their functions (aside from the Septahenge) unknown. Any thoughts on this? Or any other famous Stonehenge-like formations out there I haven't mentioned? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:28:15 +0100 From: Staffan Johansson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments At 14:01 1998-01-15 EST, JamugaKhan wrote: ><< what about druids? (who are neither good nor evil) >> >Who said this??? >In D&D they are neither lawful nor chaotic, but this don't mean that there are not neutral good and neutral evil druids. An odd thing happened when Druids were described in the Karameikos box (AD&D version). In D&D, the restriction was that they could neither be Lawful nor Chaotic. In "normal" AD&D, Druids have to be True Neutral. For some reason, "Karameikan" druids can be either Lawful Neutral, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. A bit of an odd change really. - -- Staffan Johansson (d96sj@efd.lth.se) Did you know that "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:36:21 -0800 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimensions >>Lesse, as I recall the first explanation in the old rules was the way dimensions work in general. To perceive a line (1 dimension: length) you need a plane (length and width) but to perceive that plane you need a 3rd dimension (like a piece of paper for instance). Theorizing from those 3 easy to imagine dimensions we can postulate a 4th dimension in which we prime plane mortals exist. So we exist in the first 4 dimensions. >Okay, let's see if I have this: We exist in four dimensions, length, width, height and time. Yet we can only perceive three of these. We cannot see time but know of its existence because we see its effects. >So this means that the diagram would be reversed: We are in four dimmensions yet perceive three, Immortals exist in five dimmensions and perceive four. Although I have never played an Immortals campaign, I love the old Gold box. It's pseudo mathematics and physics to explain the multiverse always appealed to me. But I still see a problem with reconciling the dimensions, the problem being time. The 4th dimension is only described as the dimension you traverse when you teleport. But in the real world, it is time. And time is not a dimension according the Gold Box, but is a sphere of interest for Immortals. Perhaps we should change things around to make time the 4th dimension in D&D? Maybe merge teleportation travel with time, so that teleport magics is a matter of time displacement, similar to chronomancy? Then again, this is probably not a matter of pressing relevance for most campaigns. Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1998 00:29:15 +0000 From: Alistair Young Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:55:56 EST, in message , JamugaKhan (== JamugaKhan) praised Shub-Internet thus: >Has anybody an idea how it can work with not too many magic? The rivers fall into the void, but what happens to the water, and where comes the rain from? The simplest way I can see is if the rivers just fall over the edge, and eventually arrive spread over a wide area of the ground-level Hollow World as a light rain. Meanwhile, normal evaporation from the seas there produce clouds as normal - and the floating continents just *happen* to fly low enough to get rain from those clouds... Alistair, lurker - -- Computational Thaumaturge -- Sysimperator, dominus retis deusque machinarum. e-mail: avatar-sig@arkane.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/ "You know, I think we ought to name this server hastur_the_unpingable." -- me *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:56:00 -0500 From: Michael Southon Subject: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Gudday, Another brain-twister, since there are so many brainiac's around thislist (no, not the super-villain ;) Somebody just brought up (in the massive response to my innocent little post ;) the fact that time is both a dimension and a sphere, and that, on top of everything else that I have been thinking, got me wondering... 1) What is a Sphere? As I understood it, it is merely a general description of a field of study that Immortals devote thier time to. 2) Cannot Time be both a Spere and a dimension? As it is the "Static" dimention that mortals exist in (but cannot change), and it is within the scope of control from the Immortals, then this most governing of topics would naturaly be a major interest of Immortals, who previously were time-bound mortals, hence it being a Sphere as well. 3) If time is not the 4th Dimension, then what is? What is time? I see no other possibility than that time is the 4th. Have fun... Leadryl Dracos *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:06:03 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Idea for skills Hey there! Did any of you see my piece of a new idea for non weapon skills in D&D? Just checking to see if it came through ok. Thanks, Geoff P.S. Please respond to: ganderg@tc.gc.ca Thanx! - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:09:30 +0100 From: Peter Balazs Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Hi! >4) I have some suggestions to our List physicist (I quite far from I´m also just making my Masters in physics, so I have to toss my two cents in! (Although my premium science is maths!) >A) Teleport spell and so on: IMC, I don´t allow instantaneous travel, only light-speed. It is nice, because it allows travel from one place to its antipodes in less than seconds. [cut] >Teleporting from a lower to a higher place would harm the caster, because an increase in height gives potential energy to a body; as energy doesn´t vanish, it would appear in the form of heat of a magical outburst. [cut] IMHO the teleporting mage will neither freeze nor get boiled! The potential energy is just that: "potential"! As you move something up, you will have to work against gravity and use energy for that! This energy will be added to the potential energy of the object! When the object is pushed away from the (say) mountain, the potential energy transforms to kinetic energy and it will fall down and probably reach quite some speed! >B) there is some objective evidence, as you probably know, Uh, oh, "objective evidence" should not be talked about! At least not in a scientific community! (Which we aren´t!) >about >differences between subjective and objective time: To the best knowledge of today´s science: WRONG! there is nothing like "objective" time! There are differences between two subjective times. there is a kind of >micro-particule (sorry about mistakes, my scientific English is So bad...) I think you talk about Myons! (Hmm?) >is found that their "life cycle" would be too short to touch Earth before vanishing. Well, it is just a note to make happy would-be time travellers. No. Would be "to the future" travellers! Hoops, Andrés nearly said it all! >You should call the cat undead :) Nice!!! Use some fuzzy logic with Quantumphysics and you may just get Undead ;-) >You can change the rate, as in these and many other experiments (the same effect was also detected in airplanes, but there we have a diference of just a very small fraction of a second in hours), but you can't reverse the direction. Thank God, you can´t! It wozuld be great to timetravel, but non-causal physics must be a pain-in-the-*ss! (If it can be formulated probably!) >The problems with the planes doesn't require quantum physics but differential geometry. I thought about explaining it in my previous email, Thanks! I never thought somebody would try to explain differential geometry on a fantasy RPG list, and you did it quite well! >Our 3 dimensions are continuous and easy to move around, to change planes you must jump the >discontinuity. But isn´t the continuity of "ou" 3 dimension not also a mathematical concept, which makes it easier to work with it? >As far as I can tell, the human visual system requires all three dimensions in order to perceive anything at all in the 3 dimensional world - look at it this way: if you lose depth from the visual field, this won't make it flat, it will take away the stimulus completely (because light moving through that dimension won't interact with the eye, right?) Not a bad point, but when you travel to the Astral and get to the second, third und fourth dimensions, your whole body is transformed, so are your eyes. And you will the see in th 2,3. and 4. Dimension! >1) I forgot to mention (took for granted) that with my reference to subjective time variations, you can only travel to the future! At least you travel faster. I think that the AD&D rule about aging after casting some spells reflects this: Haste (it does not give ultra-speed, it changes pace in your subjective timeline, so that you see everybody move slower; if it were just ultra-speed, you would lose accuracy and have attack penalties, no bonuses, for instance; you don´t see yourself acting faster). That´s a very nice explanation! >>I havne't had modern physics in a while, but I thought relativity doesn't care which direction time flows? >It does care in a sense. Yes, mathematically there is no difference in the But thermodynamics care about the direction of time! There are irreversible processes. Entropy (heh, another sphere!) will grow with time! (yes, I know that´s not really right, but to state the right thing will take too long!) ************************************************************ Peter Balazs Wurlitzerg. 37/12 1160 Wien 9003307@unet.univie.ac.at http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs ************************************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:28:16 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia JamugaKhan pontificated: >The rivers fall into the void, but what happens to the water, and where comes the rain from? The idea I like the best is the air shield (Alphatia does have its own air shield, right?) holds the water in. And Alphatia has its own water cycle inside the shield. This bottom of the shield is filled with water, therefore, in effect Alphatia have it own floating sea around it. This also answers the question what happen to all the boats and what happen to all the people who make their living based on the sea (fisherman, ocean trader, etc). Does this contradict any canon material? - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:34:14 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes In a message dated 98-01-15 21:20:09 EST, msouthon@soh.nsw.gov.au writes: >3) If time is not the 4th Dimension, then what is? What is time? I see >no other possibility than that time is the 4th. I would submit that in the Mystara universe, time is not the 4th dimension or anything at all space-like. Relativity and quantum mechanics have no place in a universe where the elementary particles are not neutrons, protons, and electrons but earth, air, fire, water, and positive and negative energy. Without relativity, we have nothing connecting time and space -- each is distinct in the classical, Newtonian sense. As for the 4th and 5th dimensions, they would simply be additional spatial dimensions that are not visible to normal humans -- directions that are at right angles to each other and to all three visible axes of direction. Clear as mud, right? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:05:23 +1030 From: "Cunningham" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions I has an argument on the AD&D list. It started with my trying to explain that Old Ones are so beyond the scope of mortal comprehension that to call them Overpowers is incorrect. Eventually though, the thread lead to dimensions, and it is here that I realised the limitations of many people's knowledge (especially those who claim to have been RPing way back when, and 'understand it better than you newcomers'). They actually suggested that the dimensions become seperate demiplanes. Uh-huh! The demiplane of width. Hmm... travel through the Ethereal for a while, and look! Its the demiplane of singularity! Migosh! >>>anyway i sense a SAN loss coming on so I think I will pause here. Any thoughts? >>Wrong game :-) . I've already lost all my SAN anyway, so I don't bother. >Not aware of the game. Its from Call of Cthulhu. Though I've never played it (I know, shame on me) I understand the PCs have SAN points representing Sanity. Different beasties reduce this to a varying degree. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. :-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:58:13 +0200 (EET) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? Cthuludrew wrote: >Any thoughts on this? Or any other famous Stonehenge-like formations out there I haven't mentioned? Yes, there was one in the PC1 i think, Thats the one with the forest-folk in it. Cant remember the details though, except that there was a cool picture of the henge included. Nice note You have made here. A grid of stonehenges... might be a good storyhook... By the way, there was one more note of the henge in Ringrise. The hill it is on top of is filled with bones of the hin, orcs and gentle folk. And its forbidden to dig into the hill... I wonder if my players would be interested to hear about a treasure hidden into the hill... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:16:39 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Classic | Original D&D Campaigns Hi all, I am collecting web pages/email addresses of any Classic or Original Dungeons & Dragons games played over the Internet. These are games using the Basic, Expert, Companion, Master and Immortal rule sets plus any additional accessories. It is not for Advanced D&D campaigns. Please send me your DMs name, the date the campaign started and the web or email address. Thanks. The site is at www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/dnd *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:12:17 +0100 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Jews of Mystara Matthew Levy wrote: <> Now that you mention it, you're right: i think the gnomes can be considered the medieval fantasy figures for the medieval Jews. But as you say later in the letter, Mystara, even if technically settled in the Middle Ages, normally reflects different eras of our own history, particularly the modern (XX century) era. For this reason, i think your hypothesis can hold, but so can also the Shadowelves idea, or for that matter, the paragon with dwarves persecuted in Glantri made by J. Daly in one of his letters. For this reason i think that all the demi-human races, where they're considered as ethnic minorities in a country, can be the mirror of the jewish society of real world. <> eh eh. Actually IMC the Storm Soldiers will be rounding up halflings after AC 1050, when Oesterhaus' son will seize the throne during a difficult political and financial situation for Thyatis after another world conflict. Then, pushed by his father, he will begin to hunt down halflings using many excuses and having them as scapegoat of the difficult thyatian situation. But the real cause behind this persecution is that Thanatos (Oesterhaus) knows that a halfling has been prophesized to be the saviour of the millennium, the one who will slay him, and wants to prevent it at all costs. As you see a strange mix between WW2 and Christ's history, but this is tightly fit to My Campaign, so i won't insist on this here. ;) It's just to show you that nearly every demi-human race can be used as ethnical minority that "deserves" the unwanted attention of the Storm Soldiers. <> This is actually very interesting as also Fabrizio pointed out and i think we could exploit the idea in the almanac, thus going deeper in the SE-Jews paragon, with the Alfheimers obviously being the Palestianians. PS: Matthew, i hope u don't mind if i've used your article about the genealogy of antalians in my homepage (the credits are yours of course).. :) J. Daly wrote: <> Actually, in my theory i had the whole elven race resembling the Jews, and i've already created a situation similar to WW2 (with segregated elves and mass etermination of the elven race) in the timeline for Wendar and Denagoth that Shawn and i wrote together (u can read it in my webpage in "The Lost History" section: www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967). And the story is not over yet.. ;) DM (back into town) Check out my updated webpage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #8 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:35:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #9 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Friday, January 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 009 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Fourth Dimension (was: Space, Planes and Dimensions) [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe [MYSTARA] - List Homepage RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:15:25 +0100 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Fourth Dimension (was: Space, Planes and Dimensions) At 16.36 15/01/98 -0800, Dave Keyser wrote: >But I still see a problem with reconciling the dimensions, the problem being time. The 4th dimension is only described as the dimension you traverse when you teleport. But in the real world, it is time. And time is not a dimension >according the Gold Box, but is a sphere of interest for Immortals. >Perhaps we should change things around to make time the 4th dimension in D&D? Maybe merge teleportation travel with time, so that teleport magics is a matter >of time displacement, similar to chronomancy? I'm really sorry to have been absent for so long, but i may let you know my opinion about this topic in the following days if i'm able to read and summarize all the relating posts about planes & dimensions. For now, suffice to say that for those interested in Mystaraspace i have a complete description of it (a schematic one though) in my homepage in the Spelljammer section (which also deals with how integrate Mystara & Spelljammer rules for the purists of both games). Regarding the issue of 4th dimension, i'd say that it is not really the dimension of Time: Temporal Prime is well featured in Chronomancer supplement and can be easily adapted to Mystara setting (it is a demiplane). The Fourth Dimension defines instead the link between the first three dimension and time: it's the place of "space-time link". Not properly time and not properly space, but a combination of the two, the ring that link the two parts of the chain. Mortals exist in the first four dimensions but can perceive only the first three, while immortals (who exist in five dimension) can also perceive the fourth one. Essentially, when u say that 4th dimension is the dimension of Teleport you simply mean that Teleport (or Dimension Door for example) makes u travel in the fourth dimension, where the first three and time are one (hence u can cross extreme distances in no time!). Hope i've made myself clear! :) DM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:40:45 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright Hello, Did anybody actually see my post about Darokin merchant lords? Or was it so good (or so bad) that no comments were needed on it? :) Anyway, I'm making a conversion of Mystaran countries to Birthright rules (Old World only). It's not quite ready yet, but I'll start taking requests now. Since it's rather long, and I doubt the entire list would be interested, I'll send it as an attachment (DOC file, ZIPped) in a week or so. Please send requests to me personally. ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:14:06 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >Hello, >Did anybody actually see my post about Darokin merchant lords? Or was it so good (or so bad) that no comments were needed on it? :) I think it looked allright. I also think it would be great if we developed these houses further. Anyone done any work on the major houses or created lesser houses? Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:20:43 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews of Mystara >AC 1050, when Oesterhaus' son will seize the throne during a difficult political and financial situation for Thyatis after another world conflict. Then, pushed by his father, he will begin to hunt down halflings using many excuses and having them as scapegoat of the difficult thyatian situation. But the real cause behind this persecution is that Thanatos (Oesterhaus) knows that a halfling has been prophesized to be the saviour of the millennium, the one who will slay him, and wants to prevent it at all costs. As you see a strange mix between WW2 and Christ's history, but this Wow! Mind if I use this?? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:05 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - High level Campaigns and Alphatia JamugaKhan wrote: ><< Did Alphatia conquer Belisaria? I mean aside from the initial invasion of >the Alphatians against the Cypri savages? >> >No, and there was no such thing like Cypri savages on Mystara. The Cypri came together with the pure Alphatians from the original home and was civilized and the main body of the Alphatians. Thanks! Actually I just reread the gazetteer and realized what an idiotic thing it was I said. Sorry. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:43:15 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments JamugaKhan wrote: ><< what about druids? (who are neither good nor evil) >> >Who said this??? >In D&D they are neither lawful nor chaotic, but this don't mean that there are not neutral good and neutral evil druids. In fact I am currently running a Norwold campaign in which the native tribal barbarians are fairly close to resembling Celts. The druids are more like their historical counterparts (human sacrifice, rule through terror) than their AD&D counterparts. So far it has been an interesting campaign. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:54:08 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions > >Okay, let's see if I have this: We exist in four dimensions, length, width, height and time. Yet we can only perceive three of these. We cannot see time but know of its existence because we see its effects. >So this means that the diagram would be reversed: We are in four dimmensions yet perceive three, Immortals exist in five dimmensions and perceive four. >How does this sound? Sounds right to me! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:08:20 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes >1) What is a Sphere? As I understood it, it is merely a general description of a field of study that Immortals devote thier time to. Well, the descriptions differ. Around the time of the Companion rules the spheres were first discussed. I believe the first mention of a sphere was the "Sphere of Entropy" in the companion module "Death's Ride". In that module the sphere was referred to as a place. I believe it was discussed similarly in M1 Into the Maelstrom in which Alphaks had a gate that lead to the Sphere of Entropy. But most of the more current materials describe it more as a sphere of being or belief. So as I understand it a plane or an immortal might be "of" the Sphere of Matter or the Sphere of Time but there is no physical location known as the Sphere of Time. Spheres are not only a relationship among the mortals though. They are a way of defining magic. Each spell can be seen to further a particular sphere's goal in some way. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments >In fact I am currently running a Norwold campaign in which the native tribal barbarians are fairly close to resembling Celts. The druids are more like their historical counterparts (human sacrifice, rule through terror) than their AD&D counterparts. well, some might debate your characterization of the historical druids ... but it sounds interesting nonetheless. Do you use any of the material that list members have worked out on the Northern areas of Brun? From my understanding the Norwold barbarians in the south are, like the Heldanners, related to the Antalians-Norsemen, whereas those in the north are Finnish-based. I believe there are also Eskimo Dwarves in the far north. Of course, Celtic types in Norwold could be relatives of the Dunael on the Isle of Dawn. As always, YMMV. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:53:05 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jews of Mystara Marco: My compliments on you projected events for the Storm Soldiers, and thank you for honoring my efforts by posting them on the web. I think we are thinking along similar lines for the future history of Mystara ... Maybe we can discuss further possibilities for the almanacs over the next few years ... My campaign also is sketched out in at least rough form as far into the future as 1050 AC and I hope that as the campaign "official" timeline progresses we can make these "future histories" available to stimulate each other's creativity. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:07:35 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? In a message dated 98-01-15 19:08:11 EST, you write: << I've noticed that there are a number of Stonehenge-like monuments located all over the Known World- the Stones of Sky in Vestland(from GAZ7 and X13); the Septahenge in the Broken Lands (from M5 and mentioned- though not by name- in the Red Orcland entry in GAZ10); the rock formation on the hill of Ringrise, in the Five Shires (from GAZ8). All of these formations are mentioned as being ancient, their origins shrouded in mystery, and their functions (aside from the Septahenge) unknown. Any thoughts on this? Or any other famous Stonehenge-like formations out there I haven't mentioned?>> First off I'd suggest the obvious. A meeting place for druids. But I would also give the stone circles a different background. Perhaps link them to the ancient Blackmoor. Make them to originally be the center of some Blackmoor town/city in the form of an administration building. Or make what the druids see as a religious place as being little more than some common Blackmoor structure such as a public restroom. I suspect the druids would be a little more than upset to discover the truth behind their holy ground. I also suspect they would wish to hush up anyone that uncovers the truth. Better yet, take a page from the movie/television series StarGate and have the circles as portals to each other as well as other circles elsewhere. The Blackmoor could have techno emgineered some device to give cause to instant transportation. Whether it reaches to the stars is another matter. If the Blackmoor are not your cup of tea, then ancient Nithia could be substituted to offer a more magical powersource. Nithia would also work with the StarGate reference. The Nithian's note on expansion and colonization also would work well with this. Gates to various parts of the KW, Mystara, and beyond are feasible. The Thothian Plateau could then hold a number of henges. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:30:16 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright At 02:14 PM 1/16/98 +0100, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >>Did anybody actually see my post about Darokin merchant lords? Or was it so good (or so bad) that no comments were needed on it? :) >I think it looked allright. >I also think it would be great if we developed these houses further. Anyone done any work on the major houses or created lesser houses? To answer Håvard's question, I could say that I sort of accidentally created a lesser house. Basically, in the first adventure I threw at my PC's (a VERY modified version of the module B1-"In Search of The Unknown") I created a story to explain why the Magician Zeligar and the great Fighter Rogahn had abandoned their Hideout. The short version is that they went to attack Humanoids on behalf of Darokin in the Broken lands but never returned (I placed the Module in the Mountains North of Akorros). Part of that story included the fact that Rogahn's mistress, who was also a great Fighter ("Melissa") was pregnant and so they sent her to Corrunglain(sp?) with Erig, Rogahn's Man At Arms as a bodyguard. The two Heroes never returned, leaving Melissa with a young child to raise. In order survive, the remaining three hero's formed a small Art and Antiquities dealership, starting with some of the items they had brought with them from the hideout. Of course, they are using false names: Merreth Ashbridge and Arok Toras. I brought the PC's together by having them hired by Melissa & Erig to go to the hideout and bring back Zelligar's spellbooks (for Melissa's son, who, oddly as the son of two fighters, has the makings of a great Mage) and a beautifully carved box of love notes and trinkets from Rogahn to Melissa that had been left behind. The rest of the plunder was theirs to keep, though the "Ashbridges" wanted to have first right of refusal. (Melissa's son is now about 18 and Melissa didn't want to risk entering the abandoned keep herself because she didn't want to leave her child) Anyway, since then, the "Ashbridges" have re-occured in the campaign as an way of providing incentives to the PC's and as a contact for potentially selling off the occational rare antiquities (at a 30% commission rate -- *ouch!*). As a result, the "House of Ashbridge" (based in Corrunglain, with dealings in Darokin City and Akorros) is a VERY, VERY small house but it is useful to the DM and the PC's. ;-) How's that for the development of an 'accidental' lesser house in Darokin? Jenni PS: Darokin is probably my favourite Realm in the Known World. The otherplace I like (and am hoping to steer my PC's at) is the area covered by Champions of Mystara: Sind, and the Serpent Peninsula. --JAMM - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:37:18 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments >From my >understanding the Norwold barbarians in the south are, like the Heldanners, related to the Antalians-Norsemen, whereas those in the north are Finnish-based. I believe there are also Eskimo Dwarves in the far north. Of course, Celtic types in Norwold could be relatives of the Dunael on the Isle of Dawn. As always, YMMV. I may take a look at the material you mention. When I started the campaign all I had to go on was the CM1 module "Test of the Warlords" and a few sparse comments in the official compendiums. So I built the culture around the AD&D supplement "The Celts" and some historical research that was paralleling some genealogical research of my own... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:42:37 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? >First off I'd suggest the obvious. A meeting place for druids. But I would also give the stone circles a different background. Perhaps link them to the ancient Blackmoor. Make them to originally be the center of some Blackmoor town/city in the form of an administration building. Or make what the druids see as a religious place as being little more than some common Blackmoor structure such as a public restroom. I suspect the druids would be a little more than upset to discover the truth behind their holy ground. I also suspect they would wish to hush up anyone that uncovers the truth. I love it! Consider your idea used! >Better yet, take a page from the movie/television series StarGate and have the circles as portals to each other as well as other circles elsewhere. The Blackmoor could have techno emgineered some device to give cause to instant transportation. Whether it reaches to the stars is another matter. Actually, basing the henge=gate idea on a book I read, I created a series of world gates a long time ago. The book was...(thinking)..."Riddle of the Wren" I would recommend that novel to anyone interested in a good story centered around a believable female character. >If the Blackmoor are not your cup of tea, then ancient Nithia could be substituted to offer a more magical powersource. Nithia would also work with the StarGate reference. The Nithian's note on expansion and colonization also would work well with this. Gates to various parts of the KW, Mystara, and beyond are feasible. The Thothian Plateau could then hold a number of henges. Given the geographical location that is probably the most logical choice. This reminds me of something else but I will save that for a different message. The tortles of the west have some interesting ruins north of the Orc's Head Peninsula. It was detailed in an old Dungeon magazine. If you are interested I could describe further... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:46:25 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe Remember the ancient matriarchal tribe that was kicking tail all over the Empire of Thonia? Who do you suppose they are related to? Did any remnants survive the cataclysm? My proposal is that they are among the tribes who fled westward colonizing Minaea, the Jennite plateau, and maybe the continents of Alphatia and Belissaria. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:13:56 +0000 From: Rob Rickard Subject: [MYSTARA] - List Homepage Where is the Mystara List Homepage? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:38:20 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >Uh, oh, "objective evidence" should not be talked about! At least not in a scientific community! (Which we aren´t!) can you explain what you mean by this? I am not particularly hung up on conventional science as some are ... what about alternative philosophical formulations of the nature of reality (the world as a vast illusion, etc.)? >>>about >>differences between subjective and objective time: >To the best knowledge of today´s science: WRONG! there is nothing like "objective" time! There are differences between two subjective times. correct. >>You should call the cat undead :) >Nice!!! >Use some fuzzy logic with Quantumphysics and you may just get Undead ;-) hmm. this is interesting. what if the continued undead existence of certain persons is a manifestation in this world of a disjuncture in their probabilistic existence in a parallel dimension ... i.e. their quantum soul is out of phase. ? whaddaya think? >Thank God, you can´t! It wozuld be great to timetravel, but non-causal physics must be a pain-in-the-*ss! (If it can be formulated probably!) good thing we're working with a fantasy world so we don't have to have all the decimal places figured out to do what we came here for. >>As far as I can tell, the human visual system requires all three dimensions in order to perceive anything at all in the 3 dimensional world - look at it this way: if you lose depth from the visual field, this won't make it flat, it will take away the stimulus completely (because light moving through that dimension won't interact with the eye, right?) >Not a bad point, but when you travel to the Astral and get to the second, third und fourth dimensions, your whole body is transformed, so are your eyes. And you will the see in th 2,3. and 4. Dimension! okay fine, but my point is that when you are thus transformed, you will become completely unable to perceive objects in the normal world as such ... you won't see them as flat or two-dimensional, because you won't see them at all. What you would see would be an image formed out of an infinite number of infinitely thin slivers of conventional reality which exist in incremental parallel to one another in the fourth dimension. That is, this is what you would see if light were still coming to you along either the third or the second dimension ... but if light can travel through the fourth dimension (an interesting question) then this complicates things even more. Actually this brings up an interesting question .... what exactly do we mean when we refer to the three dimensions in the real world? certainly there is no universal reference point for up, down, forwards, backwards, right, or left ... these depend on the vantage point and frame of reference of the observer, and our eyes can move around within the three dimensional space such that there is no clear distinction between these dimensions except RELATIVELY. Now this should mean that if we were able to shift our perception into a fourth dimension, we would also not be able to distinguish it automatically from the others, and if we were able to move around in it it would become just another facet of the world ... i.e. the Astral plane would look just like three dimensional space except with totally different objects (perhaps very weird arrangements of objects) and possibly different physical laws. Any of you physics guys prepared to give us a mini-lecture on string theory and the four forces? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:31:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >Did anybody actually see my post about Darokin merchant lords? Or was it so good (or so bad) that no comments were needed on it? :) Oh- shoot. I knew I forgot something. I saw it, and liked it... I just took it home to check against my own information on the Merchant Lords to see if anything contradicted, or else if there was any additional information I could give to you. I just forgot to check it. :p It looks pretty good, though, thus far. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:24:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Michael Southon wrote: >1) What is a Sphere? As I understood it, it is merely a general description of a field of study that Immortals devote thier time to. As originally intended, the Spheres were just what you say- esoteric areas of interest that represented one particular aspect of the nature of the cosmos. Over the years, though, and through the various authors of Mystara products, this definition got muddied somewhat, such that you occasionally get references to the Spheres as actual locations or objects. Bruce Heard answered this question once, about a year ago, and gave a really good description of both the problem and the answer. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:40:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, jdaly wrote: >Remember the ancient matriarchal tribe that was kicking tail all over the Empire of Thonia? Who do you suppose they are related to? Did any remnants survive the cataclysm? Yes, my old favorites, the Afridhi. :) >My proposal is that they are among the tribes who fled westward colonizing Minaea, the Jennite plateau, and maybe the continents of Alphatia and Belissaria. Another theory that I've proposed before is that they may have fled even further, ending up in the area now known as the Matriarchy of Pelatan (on some Thyatian maps). Steve Wilson did a nice writeup for the surrounding Izondan region for a setting similar to pre-colonial Africa. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:35:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >I also think it would be great if we developed these houses further. Anyone done any work on the major houses or created lesser houses? I've created one or two lesser houses. The one I recall offhand is the 11th house I created, House Ironboot. It's primarily a dwarven house, and the head of the household is also the head of the Cobbler's Guild... that's how the house initially made it's fortune, in shoes, though their interests have expanded somewhat. I designed it for an NPC in one of my campaigns. He was a Darokin dwarf whose primary trade was as a cobbler, so the PCs were always making fun of him for being a shoemaker. So I decided to play a trick on them by making him the son of head of House Ironboot. Everywhere they went in Darokin, Ironboot shoes were the most popular form of footwear- sort of the Darokinian equivalent of Nike. :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:49:28 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >How's that for the development of an 'accidental' lesser house in Darokin? >Jenni What a great expansion! I've always been intrigued by the background story in B1. My players will be venturing into Darokin soon. That sounds like a possible adventure.... Of course since they are all Expert/Companion level, the module will need some juicing up. And the mage of the group may be looking for an apprentice soon. Thanks for the inspiration! Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:21:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Mr. Brunciak wrote: >Why? As I see it, just because a nation closed its borders off won't stop or even deter merchants, especially in Darokin. On top of this, Darokin needs to recover from the Great War of Wrath and keeping the route busy would be very beneficial. The NACE is a great new market and so is Karameikos what with its flourishing state. The route would just be redirected to head south from Selenica to Karameikos. Goods from up north would be diverted from Ylaruam to Rockhome down the Nithian and Larodar rivers to Selenica. Nothing stops business and the opportunity to become rich. Well, for one thing, even Rockhome has become somewhat xenophobic ever since the events of 1010- if you read the description of Rockhome in Joshuan's Almanac, you get a real feeling for the sentiment of the region- they are very anti-anything-other-than-dwarves, following their civil war and their recent "betrayal" of the WDL (who refused to back them in their attempts to take over Oenkmar). While I agree that the Overland Trade Route in Rockhome will probably be the subject of much discussion and wheedling by both Darokin merchants and Northern Reaches merchants (particularly Vestland), I don't think traffic will increase dramatically along the route you suggest. (BTW, doesn't Selenica's trade route already go south into Karameikos?) What I think will likely happen is that sea trade will become a much more vital area to the Northern Reaches nations- Vestland will probably have to expand it's interests in that direction, commissioning more merchant trade vessels, and expand to include the northern regions (ie, Alpha, Leeha, etc.) and Isle of Dawn Territories, and Qeodhar. Also, the Minrothad Guilds would likely benefit greatly from the reduced overland trade (and may even benefit enough that some more greedy members of the nation will seek to ensure things remain the way they are.) As for Darokin, it will have to expand it's interests elsewhere than the Eastern Old World. Joshuan's Almanac mentions that Darokin traders have finally begun to renew contacts with the Sindhi (which should become a very vital trading partner now), and the increased activities with the Atruaghin peoples will become another vital trading interest... and will likely lead to greater contacts with the various clans there than in previous years, which will (IMO) inevitably lead to major changes in the lifeways of the Children of Atruaghin- slow changes to be sure, but big ones down the road. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #9 ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:33:43 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #10 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Saturday, January 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 010 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - the Astral Plane RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions RE: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimensions RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Thunder Rift Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe Re: [MYSTARA] - the Astral Plane Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands Re: [MYSTARA] - Adventures in Alphatia pt2 Re: [MYSTARA] - the Astral Plane Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:00:10 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: [MYSTARA] - the Astral Plane Personally, I think that the idea of beings losing dimensions in the Astral would be unplayable. A duo-dimensional character could not TURN AROUND! He would have to continue looking and moving along his original orientation (or move backwards). If a party were not oriented the same way, they would hopelessly scatter to the Astral winds. A bit boring, unfair and inaccurate. Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:31:47 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions - ---------- >De > >Okay, let's see if I have this: We exist in four dimensions, length, width, height and time. Yet we can only perceive three of these. We cannot see time but know of its existence because we see its effects. >So this means that the diagram would be reversed: We are in four dimmensions yet perceive three, Immortals exist in five dimmensions and perceive four. >How does this sound? Well, I think that any being exists (owns a place in a system of axes) in ALL dimensions (or, better, possesses all dimensions); the difference lies in the ability to INTERACT with them: mortals can interact with three ("ordinay" space), immortals with one more, whatever be it, and Old Ones with other (time), they are eternal. Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:44:11 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Well, I will go back to my fields of proficiency: Spheres and planes in D&D obey to Physics, but to the Physics of Aristotle and other Ancient Greek philosophers and sages (not in a strict way, of course). Aristotle bases the world on matter (one sphere), form or idea (the sphere of thought), potency of becoming or being something (the sphere of energy) and the act of being (the sphere of time, a linking of acts and events). As these three interact, matter takes the shape of the four elements, which in turn mix up to form the prime material plane. The Ethereal and Astral are transitional spaces: ether is where the elements process into physical "gruel", Astral a field of pure notions (like the world of ideas of Plato). They take the form of "space": in Greek thought, ether filled up the space between planets. The space beyond the Moon was another state of reality (the supralunar world was it called) and the further you moved, the nearer you got to the absolute perfection: beyond the star was the cause of everything, something akin to the sphere of Prospotitium. Entropy is not featured in Plato, but it springs from the traditional view of Greeks (and Indians and many others) of the multiverse being cyclical, and progressively "degenerating" until it must blow up and start all over again. So, we can mold the Prime as we like, because it is a Physical world (be it Greek, Newtonian, Quantum, Relativity or something of our own devising), but it is difficult to adapt modern theories to the Planes and Spheres, which are neat Aristotelian metaphysical abstracts. Whoever does it, will deserve a big prize! Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:55:01 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimensions >Perhaps we should change things around to make time the 4th dimension in D&D? >Maybe merge teleportation travel with time, so that teleport magics is a matter >of time displacement, similar to chronomancy? As I pointed in a previous mail, it is less messy to consider that teleport is not "instantaneous", just a transformation of your body into energy that allows you to travel to near-light speed (without reaching it, if you want to avoid fussing with relativity and time effects). 200.000 kilometers per second is quite fast to work on a single planet and it is safer for Mystara, too. Imagine a powerful world which sends a spaceship to ou world. After studying an strategic place for some years, their mages could teleport back home and give an accurate description of it to a whole army of spellcasters (Alphatian-style), who would quickly pop into the main streets of, let´s say, Mirros or Thyatis. Gruesome. With my system, mages would spend years (it would be longer than a light year) in space. Perhaps they would not age (magic would care for that), but in 20 or 100 years (or 1000!), the empire which sent them could be nothing but ashes.I also think that, as energy is affected by magnetic fields, planet-to-planet teleport would become dangerous, thus giving way to more interesting adventures, like making a magic portal or traveling across through the planes of existence. The "old" D&D 4th "dimension" is IMO just a label appliable to its description of the Astral plane and it works fine there. It was devised with a philosophical, not physical, idea in mind: it is a plane of the mind, a transition space to the Outer Planes and the awareness of beings (mortals, immortals and old ones) is translated into geometrical "complexity": items don´t exist without an owner (the Astral is empty), nor do plants. Normal animals would have just a dimension, rationals two, immortals three and so on. Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:24:44 GMT From: mar0173@ibm.net Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions At 09:38 16/01/98 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >>Uh, oh, "objective evidence" should not be talked about! At least not in a scientific community! (Which we aren´t!) >can you explain what you mean by this? I am not particularly hung up on conventional science as some are ... what about alternative philosophical formulations of the nature of reality (the world as a vast illusion, etc.)? Wait for the conclusion of the MOrient project :) It is going really slow, but I have made some suggestions and will probably add a few others based on the concept of the world as illusion. And what Mathew probably meant (I hope you don't get mad at me for answering in your place) was that there is no such a thing as objective, in the sense that experiments always depend on the observer (if he exists or not and what he is trying to observe). >>>You should call the cat undead :) >>Use some fuzzy logic with Quantumphysics and you may just get Undead ;-) >hmm. this is interesting. what if the continued undead existence of certain persons is a manifestation in this world of a disjuncture in their probabilistic existence in a parallel dimension ... i.e. their quantum soul is out of phase. ? whaddaya think? I meant it more as a joke than anything else but that is no reason for you not to go ahead. The problem with the cat in the box refered, as a matter of fact, to we not checking his state and, as the fact of it being alive or not depended on quantum observables that we must suppose to be two things at the same time. This way, if you wanted to create Schrodinger undeads (after the cat and the physicist and if you want to make fantasy physics work similar to the RW one), you should describe what kind of lack of knowledge lead them to a state that is life and death mixed. And it would be different anyway, as the cat is both completely alive and completely death at the same time, not in a transition state. >>Thank God, you can´t! It wozuld be great to timetravel, but non-causal physics must be a pain-in-the-*ss! (If it can be formulated probably!) >good thing we're working with a fantasy world so we don't have to have all the decimal places figured out to do what we came here for. In many cases, we don't need even a rough aproximation. Much easier. >Actually this brings up an interesting question .... what exactly do we mean when we refer to the three dimensions in the real world? certainly there is no universal reference point for up, down, forwards, backwards, right, or left ... these depend on the vantage point and frame of reference of the observer, and our eyes can move around within the three dimensional space such that there is no clear distinction between these dimensions except RELATIVELY. Now this should mean that if we were able to shift our perception into a fourth dimension, we would also not be able to distinguish it automatically from the others, and if we were able to move around in it it would become just another facet of the world ... i.e. the Astral plane would look just like three dimensional space except with totally different objects (perhaps very weird arrangements of objects) and possibly different physical laws. >Any of you physics guys prepared to give us a mini-lecture on string theory and the four forces? That is not really what you were asking, right? I could talk about the four forces, but string theory would be beyond me. I know what it is about, but strings sound to me like crazyness (we don't know how to solve many things in 4 dimensions, so we try to solve it in 23 or such dimensions..., never liked the sound of it). Anyway, back to your comments. Yes, there is no distinction between the three dimensions, it is just a question of your choice of a system of coordinates. Relativity included time in this picture, in the sense that time and space does change with your coordinate system and you will see things getting bigger or smaller and taking more or less time to happen based in your coordinates and that is one the main reasons why time started to being refered as the 4th dimension. Also, you should notice that one eye views the world as bidimensional, not three, as it doesn't recognize depth. We do see in three dimensions because we have a second eye that can add perspective to this picture. The point of what you are seeing should depend basically on what light you are detecting and where your eyes are placed. The light we are able to see is the one that travels in our three dimensions. Personally, it makes much more sense to me to think about the "4th dimension" (not time) as I described previously, a dimension where only integer multiples of a certain scale exists. This way, the Ethereal is at the distance of 1 unit of the Prime, the next plane would be at a distance of 2 units along this dimension and so on. That would mean we have just 2 neighboring planes to each plane, if we introduce just one extra dimension. If we get 2 extra ones, we would have 4 neighboring planes, d extra dimensions would give each plane 2d nearest neighbors. Or, maybe, the extra dimensions don't work in the exactly same way and that would explain the planes and "Dimensions". Suppose our 4th dimension requires a jump of 1 unit to change to the next plane, but in the 5th dimension the jump is equivalent to a 100 units change. Like a huge lattice (could it be that I am suggesting this because lattices were my prymary topic in my PhD thesis as well as in my current researches?). That would gather the planes in "Dimensions", as moving in the 4th direction can be accomplished reasonably easily, compared to moving in the 5th dimension (and so on, if you want to add extra ones). That leads to a graphic where horizontal lines (-) represent the 4th dimension and vertical ones(|) tyhe 5th: | | | - Nightmare - Nightmare - Nightmare - Astral (diaboli) Ethereal? | | | | | | | | | other planes - Astral - Prime - Ethereal - other planes | | | | | | | | | - ????? - ????? - ????? - | | | The graphic leads to many questions, as what exists in the other direction in the 5th dimension (maybe AD&D multiverse). Also I am not sure Astral and Ethereal are the closest planes to Prime, but I assume that is true. Which doesn't mean by any ways that you can't find a way of travelling to two, three or more planes away. Suggestions? Comments? Andre Martins *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:14:44 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions To borrow even further from the Star Trek-verse- even given some form of FTL travel (a la warp speed), I'd say it's still significantly slower than say, a teleport or dimension door spell- ie, it would still take an extremely long time to reach Mystaraspace. 'Course, it's been almost 4000 years now, maybe they'll turn up in the near future? Who knows, but it could make for an interesting campaign... I agree that it would be an interesting campaign, but assuming this is the Federation from Star Trek, it may not be possible. Traveling at Warp 1 (speed of light), it would take thousands of years to get to Mystara. Now, the finest starships (i.e. The Enterprise-D) can travel up to Warp 9. I'm not sure exactly if warp nine is 9x the speed of light, but if it is then we can assume it would take probably in the upper hundreds of years of straight travel. I don't think that the Federation would send out a rescue ship that far out of the way so that the overall mission would take approx. 1-2 thousand years. Of course their could be a special reason to obtain this vessel back, but it probably wouldn't be searched for till the federation's territory had spread into the vicinity of Mystara. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:22:23 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Thunder Rift << I also started my first campaign in Thunder Rift. In fact, I began DMing and playing there as well. Many people find it too simple and for beginners. While this may be true, the area is great for any low level role-playing and a great place to introduce new players to D&D. >> I agree completely. Plus, the campagin I started (back around '90) is still continueing till now. It's developed quite a bit over the years, and has now become a midlevel campaign. The continueously try to get recognized as a nation by the Known World, and there's lots of major racial conflicts and alliances that have developed as well. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:50:55 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments << Who said this??? In D&D they are neither lawful nor chaotic, but this don't mean that there are not neutral good and neutral evil druids. In AD&D they stated that druids are all of true neutral alignment i believe. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:09:01 EST From: Inconu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments << Druids are good basically but if a city is increasing encroaching into a protected forest, a druid might possibly release some of nature's fury and kill a few inhabitants. Some might see that as evil but it's really self-protection of the forest which the druid is trying to remain in symbiosis with. >> i agree. i don't know about killing and all that. I'm sure druids would plead a case to the threatening party and give a fair warning before haveing to resort to violence. Usually if not convincing by words, a display of power should be enough to convince that going in the other direction isn't such a bad idea after all. The neutral alignment should show no predudice to race, and show no leanancy to reason of the intrusion. - -Inconu ***************************************************************************To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:15:16 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments << An odd thing happened when Druids were described in the Karameikos box (AD&D version). In D&D, the restriction was that they could neither be Lawful nor Chaotic. In "normal" AD&D, Druids have to be True Neutral. For some reason, "Karameikan" druids can be either Lawful Neutral, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. A bit of an odd change really. >> I myself, just limit Druids to either Lawful Neutral, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. I don't completly agree with the ad&d rules on that. You should have a little more choice on alignment that just True Neutral. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:45:18 +0100 From: Staffan Johansson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions At 08:14 1998-01-17 EST, Inconu wrote: >I agree that it would be an interesting campaign, but assuming this is the Federation from Star Trek, it may not be possible. Traveling at Warp 1 (speed of light), it would take thousands of years to get to Mystara. Now, the finest starships (i.e. The Enterprise-D) can travel up to Warp 9. I'm not sure >exactly if warp nine is 9x the speed of light, but if it is then we can assume >it would take probably in the upper hundreds of years of straight travel. I don't think that the Federation would send out a rescue ship that far out of the way so that the overall mission would take approx. 1-2 thousand years. IIRC, the warp speeds up to 9 are supposed to be the cube roots of the velocity/c (Warp 2 would be 8c, warp 3 would be 27c etc.). After 9, it goes into a weird curve where warp 10=infinite speed. The Intrepid class (Voyager), which is the fastest ship type the Federation has, would take 70 years, IIRC to get from the other side of the galaxy to Earth. - -- Staffan Johansson (d96sj@efd.lth.se) Did you know that "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:48:41 +0100 From: Staffan Johansson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments At 09:15 1998-01-17 EST, Inconu wrote: [I wrote:] ><< >An odd thing happened when Druids were described in the Karameikos box (AD&D version). In D&D, the restriction was that they could neither be Lawful nor Chaotic. In "normal" AD&D, Druids have to be True Neutral. For some reason, "Karameikan" druids can be either Lawful Neutral, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. A bit of an odd change really. >> >I myself, just limit Druids to either Lawful Neutral, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. I don't completly agree with the ad&d rules on that. You should have a little more choice on alignment that just True Neutral. I can agree that TN might be a bit too strict, but I found it odd that the non-lawful, non-chaotic D&D druids could be Lawful or Chaotic in AD&D, but not Good or Evil. A better translation would have been to allow them to be NG and NE instead of LN and CN - like nature itself, they can be benevolent or malevolent toward mankind, but they don't give two hoots about order or chaos. - -- Staffan Johansson (d96sj@efd.lth.se) Did you know that "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:16:44 EST From: Inconu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments << I can agree that TN might be a bit too strict, but I found it odd that the non-lawful, non-chaotic D&D druids could be Lawful or Chaotic in AD&D, but not Good or Evil. A better translation would have been to allow them to be NG and NE instead of LN and CN - like nature itself, they can be benevolent or malevolent toward mankind, but they don't give two hoots about order or chaos. >> I don't really think that they could be true to nature if they were of good or evil alignments. Or at least nature wouldn't be the #1 priority anymore. If the charecter were evil, he would put his own goals ahead of the betterment of nature. If he were good, he would choose (for example) saving lives in a decision even if it hurt nature to a minor degree. I think that druids have to be neutral to be true to nature, but can go about it in a lawful, neutral, or chaotic way. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:34:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Morrow Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands A grey bearded list lurker pokes his aged head out of his cave and begins to ramble... Is anyone else irritated by the change in the Hinterlands between DotE and the PWAs? After reading DotE I had visions of the pseudo- Celtic tribes fighting valiantly for their freedom against the invading Roman-esque legions. However, someone apparently figured out that the Hinterlands were at the wrong latitude to have a climate similar to the British Isles. This maybe the first time that the creators of Mystara allowed a little thing like climate discrepencies to stand in the way of a good idea. I just don't find the Hinterlanders as jungle warriors very compeling. I mean, the Rhino Clan, what were they thinking? Obviously, I ignore the change, but what about the rest of you? Has anyone done anything interesting with the Hinterlands as they were meant to be? - -Andy Morrow III *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:11:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Morrow Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos The mysterious list lurker speaks again... I'd like to start a little discussion about what Thanatos is up to. Bear with me a little while as I produce what we already know: 1- He has considerable influence in the County of Hattias and with the Hattian Storm Soldiers. (DotE) 2- He recently completed a major plot in which he freed a pair of Nithian created servants from their long imprisonment and used them in an attempt to corrupt the Hollow World. Although he failed, there is no evidence that his fellow Immortals were ever able to punish him for his efforts. (The Blood Bretheren Trilogy- HWA1-3) 3- He has a tower full of followers in the Nithian desert, working with the followers of Ranivorous (sp?) to corrupt the nobility through the Pharoh's new wife (what is her name?) and generaly wreak havok in Nithia. (HWR2 and the PWAs) 4- At the end of WotI Thanatos usurped Hel's place as Reigning Hierarch of Entropy. (And if you think that wasn't planned somehow, you haven't been paying attention.) (WotI) Now that the facts are in place, here are some ideas, suggestions, and random flights of fancy: The Hattian invasion of the Heldann Freeholds wasn't entirely their idea, or Vanya's. Thanatos has an incredible ability to get other Immortals to do what he wants, and I think this was just one example. This move got Vanya's clerics out of Thanatos' hair back in Hattias, and provided him with a toe hold in the north as he slowly worked to subtly push them into becoming a truly nasty group of characters, instead of just generaly unpleasent. The big-T did his job so well, that it wasn't until the inquisition in 1013 AC that Vanya started to realize that her clerics were drifting away from her precepts. Now let's shift gears a little. The Voyage of the Princess Ark (VotPA) series in Dragon introduced us to the Isle of Oceania, and its major inhabitants, the Night Dragons. Synn, their queen, has become very important in Mystara. She appears in VotPA and CoM, then later, as her alter ego Lady Dolores of Hillsbury in the PWAs, JA, and G:KoM. The VotPA also introduces us to a Heldannic Knight named Herr Rolf, who eventualy became the head of that order and ruler of the Heldannic Territories. (Could somebody provide his real name as it appears in the PWA's? I'm working from memory here.) It is implied that Synn is working for an Entropic Immortal. In the VotPA, she kills Herr Rolf and claims his body. The next time Rolf is mentioned, he is alive and heading the Heldannic Knights. So who raised him? Even more importantly, the Night Dragon's description specifies that they have the power to claim the souls of their victims. So the soul of the head of the Heldannic Knights is in the posession of a Night Dragon working for a mysterious Entropic Immortal. And which Entropic Immortal are we fairly certain is already involved with the Knights? You do the math. One thing further- Lady Dolores of Hillsbury is now Princess Dolores Hillsbury in Glantri. She already controls Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels (although her influence is slipping, or gone if you read the Net Almanac) and Prince Kol. What if Thanatos, through Synn, offered Prince Brannart McGregor the secrets of the path of Immortality for the Sphere of Entropy that he's been searching for so long? I think he'd be up for wreaking a little havok. And while we're on the theme, what if Thanatos managed to co-opt Alphaks' pawn, Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany? Alphaks couldn't refuse, even if Thanatos was nice enough to ask first. So it all boils down to this- Thanatos has his fingers in pies in Hattias, Nithia, Glantri, and the Heldannic Territories. What is he up to? Are all these plots connected? Will he bring back the Blood Bretheren to help in Nithia? (Even if they died in your campaign, that shouldn't even slow him down.) What was Synn guarding on Oceania- is it something she doesn't want found, or something Thanatos wants kept under wraps, but on the Prime Plane ready for use if need be? I have my own ideas, but I've rambled on long enough. What do you all think? What is everyone's favorite Entropic Immortal up to? - -Andy Morrow III *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:40:12 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe In a message dated 98-01-16 14:02:03 EST, you write: << Remember the ancient matriarchal tribe that was kicking tail all over the Empire of Thonia? Who do you suppose they are related to? Did any remnants survive the cataclysm? My proposal is that they are among the tribes who fled westward colonizing Minaea, the Jennite plateau, and maybe the continents of Alphatia and Belissaria. >> Yeah the Afridi (sp). I always wondered what happened to them. With some tweaking, Minea and Jennites are both feasible options. Alphatia and Belissaria are not. I know that Mainland Alphatia was covered with ice prior to the GRoF. I assume the same with Alphatia's "bread basket". >From what I remember (Duchy of Ten is upstairs and I am feeling lazy) the Afridhi (sp) are rather adaptive. Not sure how "whats her names" HandMaidens would fit into the Jennite social structure. Perhaps the Afrihdi (I'll spell it right eventually) were the predecessors of the Ethengar. The Ethie are an old race. Perhaps the Handmaiden religion faltered after the GRoF as the "power of the diety was tarnished". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:56:01 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - the Astral Plane Andrés Piquer Otero wrote: >Personally, I think that the idea of beings losing dimensions in the Astral would be unplayable. A duo-dimensional character could not TURN AROUND! He would have to continue looking and moving along his original orientation (or move backwards). If a party were not oriented the same way, they would hopelessly scatter to the Astral winds. A bit boring, unfair and inaccurate. That would be true IF an astral character _lost_ dimensions. They don't. They remain exactly the same, just the dimensions they _see_ is altered. "Its all in how you look at it" so to speak. Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:00:53 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands In a message dated 98-01-17 10:46:18 EST, you write: << Is anyone else irritated by the change in the Hinterlands between DotE and the PWAs? After reading DotE I had visions of the pseudo- Celtic tribes fighting valiantly for their freedom against the invading Roman-esque legions. However, someone apparently figured out that the Hinterlands were at the wrong latitude to have a climate similar to the British Isles. This maybe the first time that the creators of Mystara allowed a little thing like climate discrepencies to stand in the way of a good idea. I just don't find the Hinterlanders as jungle warriors very compeling. I mean, the Rhino Clan, what were they thinking? Obviously, I ignore the change, but what about the rest of you? Has anyone done anything interesting with the Hinterlands as they were meant to be? >> I agree with the climate thing. Mystara is notorious for having conflicting climate areas bordering each other. I think there was an official explanation for this which basically summed it up as a fantasy plot tool. I'll except that. The Hinterlanders are interesting. I have them as being Celtic or more accurately Scottish. Scottish goes with the Clan aspect. The environment (jungle) is of little consequense. If anything, the "dense foreboding jungle" buys the Clans time against the Thyattian encroachment. Breaks up the large well deciplined ranks into less effective smaller units. Whallah...you have the opportunity for guerrilla warfare. IMC I have the hinterlanders wearing kilts. The kilts go with the humid jungle sort of. Social structure still surrounds the Clans. However, the big four are not the only clans. There are many. IMC there are at least 37. Families, tribes and small clans ally themselves with each other to form the big four. A sort of conglomorate. Some day I'll finish up the Hinterland deal and will post it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:06:02 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Adventures in Alphatia pt2 Some time back I spoke of posting more descriptive adventure ideas to the List. Starting with Ambur, I was stumped. I had never adventured nor had I DM'ed there. I called an old Gaming friend and discussed the matter with him. He had ran an adventure or two there. We also talked over a few possible adventures. So, I have bridged this gap, I'll soon post the Adventures in Ambur and then carry on with the rest of Alphatia proper. As a side note, in putting these adventures together, I was given an opportunity to go back over some old campaigns. Ah the memories. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:20:22 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - the Astral Plane At 01:00 AM 1/17/98 +0100, you wrote: >Personally, I think that the idea of beings losing dimensions in the Astral would be unplayable. A duo-dimensional character could not TURN AROUND! He would have to continue looking and moving along his original orientation (or move backwards). If a party were not oriented the same way, they would hopelessly scatter to the Astral winds. A bit boring, unfair and inaccurate. It is completely playable. Imagine a bunch of paperdoll adventurers travelling about the cosmos. Admittedly a little odd but visualizing is possible. A 2-d person of course would not HAVE to turn around. Or you could have them turn around just as a paper person would. It's fantasy! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:35:04 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands >Is anyone else irritated by the change in the Hinterlands between DotE and the PWAs? I am not sure what PWA stands for but as I recall from DotE the barbarians are indeed pseudo-Celtic warriors running about the jungle fighting for their freedom. I like the idea too and eventually the players in my campaign are going to become aware of the Hinterlands(they already are to a small degree as I am running a Thyatian slave campaign in which one of the gladiators is formerly of the Hinterlands). Where are they described as being "jungle warriors"? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #10 ******************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:52:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #11 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Saturday, January 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 011 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimensions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:18:47 +0000 From: Rob Rickard Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Andrew Morrow wrote: >I'd like to start a little discussion about what Thanatos is up >to. Bear with me a little while as I produce what we already know: >1- He has considerable influence in the County of Hattias and with the >Hattian Storm Soldiers. (DotE) >2- He recently completed a major plot in which he freed a pair of Nithian >created servants from their long imprisonment and used them in an attempt >to corrupt the Hollow World. Although he failed, there is no evidence >that his fellow Immortals were ever able to punish him for his efforts. >(The Blood Bretheren Trilogy- HWA1-3) The Blood Bretheren were Goblin "like". HWA1 stated that they might of been deformed Shadowelfs casted off (as the shadowelfs do). >3- He has a tower full of followers in the Nithian desert, ... >4- At the end of WotI Thanatos usurped Hel's place as Reigning Hierarch of >Entropy. ... >Now that the facts are in place, here are some ideas, suggestions, >and random flights of fancy: >The Hattian invasion of the Heldann Freeholds wasn't entirely their idea, or Vanya's. Thanatos has an incredible ability to get other >Immortals to do what he wants, and I think this was just one example. This move got Vanya's clerics out of Thanatos' hair back in Hattias, and >provided him with a toe hold in the north as he slowly worked to subtly >push them into becoming a truly nasty group of characters, instead of just >generaly unpleasent. The big-T did his job so well, that it wasn't until >the inquisition in 1013 AC that Vanya started to realize that her clerics >were drifting away from her precepts. I dont agree with this. In or about 950AC the Hattians left to the Heldans. I feel that Thantos killed the Count after the Hattians left. It stated the he raised the counts son to his own liking, not gave birth to him, so 50 years is too far a stretch.He could of planed to get rid of the Vanya clerics in Hattias. Planted thoughts or spread Ideas of glory to the high clerics of Vanya about Heldan to get rid of them so he could warp the SS. Then after the Clerics of Vanya left for Heldan and started to get settled he killed the count and started to warp the SS. I feel that if the clerics of Vanya didnt like the SS ways they would of started a civil war in the county so they could of stayed in their home land next to the great church of Vanya in Thyatis City. IMC Anya down in Thyatis (AC1006) could see for her self that the SS were not followers of Vanya. >Now let's shift gears a little. The Voyage of the Princess Ark >(VotPA) series in Dragon introduced us to the Isle of Oceania, and its >major inhabitants, the Night Dragons. Synn, their queen, has become very >important in Mystara. She appears in VotPA and CoM, then later, as her >alter ego Lady Dolores of Hillsbury in the PWAs, JA, and G:KoM. The VotPA also introduces us to a Heldannic Knight named Herr Rolf, who eventualy became the head of that order and ruler of the Heldannic Territories. (Could somebody provide his real name as it appears in the >PWA's? I'm working from memory here.) ...The next time Rolf is mentioned, he is alive and heading the Heldannic Knights. So who raised him? ... I dont have access to my books either. Sorry, but I think it is Her Wulf von Kl...? He is or was called Her Rolf by his old adventuring parties. I never put a lot of thought into it. I went with the fact that synn let him live and placed him on the fast track to leadership so he would be a thorn in Alphatia's side. >... Lady Dolores of Hillsbury is now Princess Dolores Hillsbury in Glantri. She already controls Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels ????? Is this all from the the Net Almanac? >What if Thanatos, through Synn, offered Prince Brannart McGregor the secrets of the path of Immortality for the >Sphere of Entropy that he's been searching for so long? ... what if Thanatos managed to co-opt Alphaks' pawn, Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany? Alphaks couldn't refuse, even if Thanatos was nice >enough to ask first. I like to play with Thantos but lets give the other immortals of Entropy some game time. I personally like Hel to have little bench time as possible. I am starting to break in some others too (Orcus in Karameikos, Masauwu & IMC young Talitha). >So it all boils down to this- Thanatos has his fingers in pies in >Hattias, Nithia, Glantri, and the Heldannic Territories. What is he up >to? Are all these plots connected? Will he bring back the Blood Bretheren to help in Nithia? ... >What was Synn guarding on Oceania- That is the Golden Question. For years I have thought what it could be. I want it to be something so great the the immortals themselves are helpless and in harms way. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:34:48 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes In a message dated 98-01-16 09:59:12 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >So as I understand it a plane or an immortal might be "of" the Sphere of >Matter or the Sphere of Time but there is no physical location known as the Sphere of Time. However, each Sphere does have at least one plane that it almost utterly dominates -- see WotI for details. For example, the Plane of Pyts is probably what is meant if somebody is looking for a physical location for the Sphere of Entropy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:08:43 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia << Does this contradict any canon material? >> Yes, the beaches of the tourist land Arongansa are now facing nothing (PWA). Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:08:40 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route << Why? As I see it, just because a nation closed its borders off won't stop or even deter merchants, especially in Darokin. On top of this, Darokin needs to recover from the Great War of Wrath and keeping the route busy would be very beneficial. The NACE is a great new market and so is Karameikos what with its flourishing state. The route would just be redirected to head south from Selenica to Karameikos. Goods from up north would be diverted from Ylaruam to Rockhome down the Nithian and Larodar rivers to Selenica. Nothing stops business and the opportunity to become rich. >> I doubt that these rivers are navigable. Of course the merchants will make even more profit than before. I remind at the Ferengi rule 34: "War is good for business". The Al-Azad house might impose as "true" Ylari and conduct the trade. But the amount of cargo and the number of merchants will decrease. The Darokinian are living in interesting times, as an old Chinese saying says. Aengmor (land) in the middle, Aengmor (City) in the north, Hule-occupied Sind in the west, Ylaruam in the east. That means that there are no much secure trade routes left. Vice versa Glantri, Ethengar and Rockhome are cut off from the south. Jamu ga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:08:45 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes I once read an article which tried to explain the sources of clerics and magic-users. One idea was, that alien forces are fighting a silent war for the world. Great space ships are circling in the orbit and each spellcaster has a special magical object (a communicator) to hold contact with the powers in the sky. A lightning is a fired phaser, a teleport is transporter and a creation spell a replicator/transporter etc. It doesn't fit very well into our well-developed immortal society, but it's a really weird idea. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:08:44 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circles on Alphatia << The simplest way I can see is if the rivers just fall over the edge, and eventually arrive spread over a wide area of the ground-level Hollow World as a light rain. Meanwhile, normal evaporation from the seas there produce clouds as normal - and the floating continents just *happen* to fly low enough to get rain from those clouds... >> Probably not! Alphatia flies out of the HW skyshield and has its own. I doubt that water can penetrate it. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:13:47 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Andrew Morrow wrote: >Is anyone else irritated by the change in the Hinterlands between DotE and the PWAs? I thought it was a bit sudden and jarring, but also somewhat more believable. And, both PWA 1010 and DotE were written by Aaron Allston (though I don't recall which PWA made the change- was it Ann Dupuis'?) >I just don't find the Hinterlanders as jungle warriors very compeling. I mean, the Rhino Clan, what were they thinking? Obviously, I ignore the change, but what about the rest of you? Has anyone done anything interesting with the Hinterlands as they were meant to be? I don't see why they can't still be Celtic-types. After all, they are still the descendants of Antalian/Heldannic tribes that were brought over to the southern continent as Nithian slaves (Bruce Heard mentions this in one of his earliest Princess Ark articles- I don't recall if anything else has been made of this, but it sounds the most reasonable to me). As such, they could still maintain many of their former customs and culture, just adapted for the different climate. As for the names of the tribes, I think they are somewhat more reasonable for the particular climate- certain types of the original 'totem' animals shouldn't be particularly suited for that environment they are in. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:27:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Andrew Morrow wrote: >I'd like to start a little discussion about what Thanatos is up to. Bear with me a little while as I produce what we already know: >2- He recently completed a major plot in which he freed a pair of Nithian created servants from their long imprisonment and used them in an attempt to corrupt the Hollow World. Although he failed, there is no evidence that his fellow Immortals were ever able to punish him for his efforts. (The Blood Bretheren Trilogy- HWA1-3) I'd argue that he was probably dropped in rank as reigning Hierarch (thus explaining how he dropped from that rank between the Hollow World boxed set and WotI). Which means that this plot probably took place between 1000-1004 AC. >The Hattian invasion of the Heldann Freeholds wasn't entirely their idea, or Vanya's. Thanatos has an incredible ability to get other Immortals to do what he wants, and I think this was just one example. This move got Vanya's clerics out of Thanatos' hair back in Hattias, and provided him with a toe hold in the north as he slowly worked to subtly push them into becoming a truly nasty group of characters, instead of just generaly unpleasent. The big-T did his job so well, that it wasn't until the inquisition in 1013 AC that Vanya started to realize that her clerics were drifting away from her precepts. There is certainly some support (if only by extrapolation) of this theory, and I think there are more than a few people on the list that would tend to agree, to some extent or another. I've proposed this, and Mystaros (or was it DM?) has written a short article on the relationship between Thanatos, the Knights, and Vanya. It should be available on Shawn Stanley's homepage. >Now let's shift gears a little. The Voyage of the Princess Ark (VotPA) series in Dragon introduced us to the Isle of Oceania, and its major inhabitants, the Night Dragons. Synn, their queen, has become very important in Mystara. She appears in VotPA and CoM, then later, as her alter ego Lady Dolores of Hillsbury in the PWAs, JA, and G:KoM. The VotPA also introduces us to a Heldannic Knight named Herr Rolf, who eventualy became the head of that order and ruler of the Heldannic Territories. (Could somebody provide his real name as it appears in the PWA's? I'm working from memory here.) Wulf von Klagendorf. I always liked him as a villain. >It is implied that Synn is working for an Entropic Immortal. In the VotPA, she kills Herr Rolf and claims his body. The next time Rolf is mentioned, he is alive and heading the Heldannic Knights. So who raised him? Even more importantly, the Night Dragon's description specifies that they have the power to claim the souls of their victims. So the soul of the head of the Heldannic Knights is in the posession of a Night Dragon working for a mysterious Entropic Immortal. And which Entropic Immortal are we fairly certain is already involved with the Knights? You do the math. I agree. This has been my theory for some time. >One thing further- Lady Dolores of Hillsbury is now Princess Dolores Hillsbury in Glantri. She already controls Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels (although her influence is slipping, or gone if you read the Net Almanac) and Prince Kol. What if Thanatos, through Synn, offered Prince Brannart McGregor the secrets of the path of Immortality for the Sphere of Entropy that he's been searching for so long? I think he'd be up for wreaking a little havok. And while we're on the theme, what if Thanatos managed to co-opt Alphaks' pawn, Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany? Alphaks couldn't refuse, even if Thanatos was nice enough to ask first. Interesting, though I don't necessarily agree that Thanatos could just co-opt Morphail. Even though Alphaks was sponsored by Thanatos, the two don't really get along well any longer, and Alphaks is past the point where he must follow the commands of his sponsor. I'd think Thanatos would have to provide Alphaks with some motivation- not that T-Bone couldn't do it, just that it wouldn't be as simple as just saying, "By the way, I'm taking your vampire." >So it all boils down to this- Thanatos has his fingers in pies in Hattias, Nithia, Glantri, and the Heldannic Territories. What is he up to? Are all these plots connected? Will he bring back the Blood Bretheren to help in Nithia? (Even if they died in your campaign, that shouldn't even slow him down.) What was Synn guarding on Oceania- is it something she doesn't want found, or something Thanatos wants kept under wraps, but on the Prime Plane ready for use if need be? I'd say that any plans Thanatos might have for the Blood Brethren would be put off due to the fact that the goblinoids no longer control the Broken Lands. It would be far more difficult for them to expand their power base... of course, they might be more effective in Glantri, where their magical skills would suit them... As for Oceania, I don't know. I'd say that whatever it was is going to be going into action fairly soon, as Synn has apparently been released from her guardianship duties. Perhaps it is the location of yet another Entropic artifact (a la the altered Radiance) like Bruce Heard proposed some time ago? If so, that puts two Entropic artifacts under Thanatos' seeming control (the one in Oceania and Synn guarding the one in Glantri). Maybe something similar is held by the Heldannic Knights, and Thanatos hopes to alter that one to become an Entropic artifact as well? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:32:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Alex295 wrote: >Yeah the Afridi (sp). I always wondered what happened to them. With some tweaking, Minea and Jennites are both feasible options. If you go with the canonical interpretation of Blackmoor in Skothar, I'd say it's more likely that the Jennites are descended from the Peshwa peoples. The Minaens are (pre PWA 1012) mixtures of Milenians and Jennites. The Afridhi probably went elsewhere. It's possible they migrated westward, becoming the "original" stock of the Ochalean isles (the theory of original Ochaleans has been proposed on the list) that were eventually assimilated into Alphatian society. Or else the Bellisarians, or maybe they went somewhere else. >Alphatia and Belissaria are not. I know that Mainland Alphatia was covered with ice prior to the GRoF. I assume the same with Alphatia's "bread basket". From what I remember (Duchy of Ten is upstairs and I am feeling lazy) the Afridhi (sp) are rather adaptive. Not sure how "whats her names" HandMaidens would fit into the Jennite social structure. Perhaps the Afrihdi (I'll spell it right eventually) were the predecessors of the Ethengar. The Ethie are an old race. Perhaps the Handmaiden religion faltered after the GRoF as the "power of the diety was tarnished". The Ethengar are probably related to the Peshwa as well. My theory is that Zugzul's followers, the Afridhi, eventually succumbed to the internal rivalry between followers of his fire aspect and his ice aspect, and this (along with outside events) led to the fracturing of the Afridhi peoples. The followers of the fire aspect retained their matriarchal ways and the others became a more male-dominated society. I have theories on where they went to, but I'm (still) a Blackmoor on Brun believer, so my theories may not entirely work with the canonical interpretation. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:34:25 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-17 08:24:49 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >Of course their could be a special reason to obtain this vessel back, but it >probably wouldn't be searched for till the federation's territory had spread >into the vicinity of Mystara. If you are basing this on something similar to the Star Trek universe, I would be very surprised if the Federation waited that long. The only thing likely to stop them would be the possibility that Mystara is located in space claimed by a hostile race -- but then why has not said hostile race explored Mystara? And remember that starfaring civilizations can grow quickly -- is it really likely that they could send one ship to a system and then not send another, either accidentally or on purpose, for thousands of years afterwards? The only way I see that happening would be if the Federation collapsed soon after the Beagle's mission or if the accident that sent it to Mystara is such a rare event that it happens no more than once every few thousand years. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:34:08 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimensions In a message dated 98-01-16 20:59:58 EST, anpro@cros.es writes: >As I pointed in a previous mail, it is less messy to consider that teleport >is not "instantaneous", just a transformation of your body into energy that allows you to travel to near-light speed (without reaching it, if you want to avoid fussing with relativity and time effects). Transforming a physical body into energy and back again is just about the "messiest" process that I can think of. It creates a lot more problems than it solves, IMO. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:34:23 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-17 08:24:49 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >I'm not sure exactly if warp nine is 9x the speed of light, but if it is then we can >assume it would take probably in the upper hundreds of years of straight travel. No, warp 9 (in TOS) was 9x9x9 (not a mere 9x3!) or 729 times the speed of light -- I think with the recalibration for ST:TNG it is now even faster. But the bottom line is this -- if the Beagle reached Mystara by means that are easily reproduced by other ships, it should have been followed within a few years by other ships. Note that Voyager requires only some 70+ years to cross the galaxy -- so unless the Mystara solar system has some sort of special properties that keep out advanced starships, it would be very surprising for this planet to remain unvisited for over 4000 years. Since no other ships arrived for thousands of years afterwards, we must assume that the Beagle was the victim of some sort of freak accident that made it the only advanced starship ever to reach the Mystara solar system. I seriously doubt that there are any interstellar civilizations in the same galaxy as the Mystara solar system, assuming for the moment that it is even part of a galaxy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:59:23 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands If you think about it, many features of Celtic culture actually work better in a tropical environment anyway. After all, Scotland's climate is hardly conducive for wearing kilts or for painting oneself blue and entering combat naked. But I guess with the warmer climate this "macho" aspect is lost. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:59:09 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) In a message dated 98-01-17 18:23:24 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: >The Darokinian are living in interesting times, as an old Chinese >saying says. I did a little research on that one, and I discovered something interesting - -- if this saying is Chinese in origin, it has been so distorted from the original that no Chinese scholar recognizes it. The best theory so far about this saying is that Robert Kennedy made it up during a speech in South Africa -- do a Web search for "Chinese curse" for more info. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:04:25 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos >I'd say that any plans Thanatos might have for the Blood Brethren would be put off due to the fact that the goblinoids no longer control the Broken Lands. It would be far more difficult for them to expand their power base... of course, they might be more effective in Glantri, where their magical skills would suit them... But what if it all fit in with the BIG PLAN! What if he intended for the goblinoids to be pushed out of the Broken Lands so that the brethren would be in the right place at the right time... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:56:06 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions << And remember that starfaring civilizations can grow quickly -- is it really likely that they could send one ship to a system and then not send another, either accidentally or on purpose, for thousands of years afterwards? >> Very true. There would obviously be an investigation as to the Beagles whereabouts and the search would probably begin at the last known co-ordinates of the vessel. The wormhole suggestion is a good one seeing as heavy damage could have been taken through the travel, or perhaps the Beagle wasn't fareing well in a battle and decided to cast itself through a wormhole and crash- landing on the nearest hospitable planet. Then again, if Mystara was already in federation space, the prime directive would not allow any interference with a world that has not become technologically advanced to warp drive capability. There's too many possibilities here for a clear answer as to why no one has come for it or whether or not there is a rescue vessel arriveing in any near century. However, we can safely assume that for some reason, wherever the Beagle came from.... probably has given up by now if they haven't found it yet, or have not been able to locate it, or have not been able to travel to Mystara yet. It's pretty much a DM's field day as far as i can see. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:08:38 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >Since no other ships arrived for thousands of years afterwards, we must assume that the Beagle was the victim of some sort of freak accident that made it the only advanced starship ever to reach the Mystara solar system. I seriously doubt that there are any interstellar civilizations in the same galaxy as the Mystara solar system, assuming for the moment that it is even part of a galaxy. Actually I am still partial to the idea that the Federation is a massive bureacracy in which economic cutbacks and loads of paperwork made one little expedition of exploration just too easy to lose Although, truth be told, imc the Federation did destroy itself. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:52:40 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions << I seriously doubt that there are any interstellar civilizations in the same galaxy as the Mystara solar system, assuming for the moment that it is even part of a galaxy. i wouldn't go that far. Its very possible for it to have been lost. If there was no distress beacon, what are the chances of it being found? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:09:30 -0500 (EST) From: rdroe@iupui.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Well Mystara could be located in federation space, and the Federation could be following the Prime Directive and not interfearing. And if they are doing research there wouldn't they be disguise? Counselor Troy has been a Romulan, Reiker almost everything, Kirk Romulan, and Warf was even back in time on the enterprise so if they are there on Mystara they probably don't want anyone to know. The Federation is known for studying planets before they make contact. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 04:50:39 GMT From: mar0173@ibm.net Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos At 16:11 17/01/98 +0000, Andrew Morrow wrote: >I'd like to start a little discussion about what Thanatos is up to. Bear with me a little while as I produce what we already know: Great! I have posted to the list my own theory about Thanatos and Vanya several years ago. Now that you are asking, I may send it again. Btw, I have the original post available in the net in my university account, but the machines seem to be off now and I can't confirm the URL :( >1- He has considerable influence in the County of Hattias and with the Hattian Storm Soldiers. (DotE) >2- He recently completed a major plot in which he freed a pair of Nithian created servants from their long imprisonment and used them in an attempt to corrupt the Hollow World. Although he failed, there is no evidence that his fellow Immortals were ever able to punish him for his efforts. (The Blood Bretheren Trilogy- HWA1-3) >3- He has a tower full of followers in the Nithian desert, working with the followers of Ranivorous (sp?) to corrupt the nobility through the Pharoh's new wife (what is her name?) and generaly wreak havok in Nithia. (HWR2 and the PWAs) >4- At the end of WotI Thanatos usurped Hel's place as Reigning Hierarch of Entropy. (And if you think that wasn't planned somehow, you haven't been paying attention.) (WotI) Let me add a few facts I noticed: 5 - The Hattians are supposed to be followers of Vanya, however their chief is Thanatos in a mortal identity. One of the few reasons a Immortal can act directly in Mystara is to punish her followers, so, unless the count is following Vanya's orders, she would very likely have acted against him. And I don't see Thanatos getting an identity where he must obey someone to go undetected. 6 - Why has Vanya instructed her followers to stop Alphatia during the WotI? She certainly knew Thyatis would not be able to stand long against the forces of Alphatia, specially with rumours of the glantrians tampering and menacing the magic in Mystara (Haldemar heard it in 1000 AC, so there must have been some whispers going around in Alphatia and getting more wizards to support the war, just in case). And Thyatis is one of the major nations that worship her, she wouldn't want to lose ground there and loss power. And Thyatis was far from its better, with all the corruption and drugged officials it had to do anything else than to buy Glantri some extra time. She has no interest in Glantri, so why risk losing ground to protect other people interests? 7 - The Hattians have a strong prejudice against women, Vanya has Rathanos as her enemy simply because he preaches male superiority. Many of the Storm Soldiers are her clerics, so she could easily force them to review that society's view. And she does nothing. 8 - Take a look ate the fighting orders in Thyatis. The Player's Guide describe 4. One of them follows Ilsundal. Two are said to be followers of Vanya, the Storm Soldiers and the Brotherhood of the Grey Lady. The last one, the Sisterhood of the Sword only accepts women and certainly would have Vanya followers among its members. That is a lot of influence in Thyatis. She could have forced Thanatos out of control of the SS if she wanted and could have used to war between Glantri and Alphatia to make Thyatis stronger. She decided to put the empire into destruction's way to make the Heldannic Knights stronger. >Now that the facts are in place, here are some ideas, suggestions, and random flights of fancy: >The Hattian invasion of the Heldann Freeholds wasn't entirely their idea, or Vanya's. Thanatos has an incredible ability to get other Immortals to do what he wants, and I think this was just one example. This move got Vanya's clerics out of Thanatos' hair back in Hattias, and provided him with a toe hold in the north as he slowly worked to subtly push them into becoming a truly nasty group of characters, instead of just generaly unpleasent. The big-T did his job so well, that it wasn't until the inquisition in 1013 AC that Vanya started to realize that her clerics were drifting away from her precepts. But DotE shows a different picture with Vanya having still too much influence in Thyatis. And remember she was the moving force that lead the empire to war, a simple mistress to the emperor wouldn't be able to do such a thing if the idea didn't have a great support, either among the populace or in the Senate. Vanya is strong in Thyatis, even after the Heldanic Knights left for the Freeholds. >Now let's shift gears a little. The Voyage of the Princess Ark (VotPA) series in Dragon introduced us to the Isle of Oceania, and its major inhabitants, the Night Dragons. Synn, their queen, has become very important in Mystara. She appears in VotPA and CoM, then later, as her alter ego Lady Dolores of Hillsbury in the PWAs, JA, and G:KoM. The VotPA also introduces us to a Heldannic Knight named Herr Rolf, who eventualy became the head of that order and ruler of the Heldannic Territories. (Could somebody provide his real name as it appears in the PWA's? I'm working from memory here.) >It is implied that Synn is working for an Entropic Immortal. In the VotPA, she kills Herr Rolf and claims his body. The next time Rolf is mentioned, he is alive and heading the Heldannic Knights. So who raised him? Even more importantly, the Night Dragon's description specifies that they have the power to claim the souls of their victims. So the soul of the head of the Heldannic Knights is in the posession of a Night Dragon working for a mysterious Entropic Immortal. And which Entropic Immortal are we fairly certain is already involved with the Knights? You do the math. Here, I'll agree with you. But notice that again Thanatos is behind the scenes where Vanya is involved, exactly where she is stronger. >One thing further- Lady Dolores of Hillsbury is now Princess Dolores Hillsbury in Glantri. She already controls Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels (although her influence is slipping, or gone if you read the Net Almanac) and Prince Kol. What if Thanatos, through Synn, offered Prince Brannart McGregor the secrets of the path of Immortality for the Sphere of Entropy that he's been searching for so long? I think he'd be up for wreaking a little havok. And while we're on the theme, what if Thanatos managed to co-opt Alphaks' pawn, Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany? Alphaks couldn't refuse, even if Thanatos was nice enough to ask first. >So it all boils down to this- Thanatos has his fingers in pies in Hattias, Nithia, Glantri, and the Heldannic Territories. What is he up to? Are all these plots connected? Will he bring back the Blood Bretheren to help in Nithia? (Even if they died in your campaign, that shouldn't even slow him down.) What was Synn guarding on Oceania- is it something she doesn't want found, or something Thanatos wants kept under wraps, but on the Prime Plane ready for use if need be? The Blood Bethren presents a new problem. Thanatos knew he was going to fail at that time. Even if he succeeded, the Immortals would sooner or later return. And they would correct everything if Thanatos had upset things too much. The rule against action in Mystara is obviously ignored when most Immortals agree on that, in a way that they transplant full countries out of harm's way, per example. So, should he had succeeded, the Immortals would just recast the Spell of Preservation. He was probably working just in making the Spel of Preservation weaker, not on destroying it completely. And, maybe, relocating a few burrowers to more strategic locations. And he wanted the Immortals to believe he had been defeated, so that they wouldn't try to undo his work. >I have my own ideas, but I've rambled on long enough. What do you all think? What is everyone's favorite Entropic Immortal up to? So, after showing how Thanatos and Vanya are much more linked than would be reasonable, here is my old suggestion: Vanya was a normal warrior of the Kerendan people, one of their greatest heroes at her time. She was captured by the Milenians and freed by a cleric who helped her and pointed the Path of the Dynast to her, according to the WotI. What was not told to us was what really happened there. The cleric was the main priest of Thanatos in the area and Thanatos had a few chosen of his servers looking for a might hero or heroine. The cleric contacted Thanatos and his master liked what he saw. There was a woman who could very well become Immortal and her feats had already been noticed in Pandius. Exactly what he was looking for. The cleric lead her to Oceania, that was already ruled at that time by a community of dragons that Thanatos had perverted to his own purposes. There she was submitted to a spell Thanatos had been preparing for a long time. The greatest part of her soul was imprisoned in a artifact that was hidden in the deepest dungeon of the island, guarded by the night dragons. And Thanatos created a special kind of avatar. This avatar was a mortal one, that assumed control of Vanya's body, where only a small portion of her own soul had remained so that any magic would still detect her as Vanya. Thanatos then embarked in a path to Immortality under Khoronus and has ever since gained more power as Vanya as well. He had to renounce to some of his power at the time, but he has certainly regained it since then. Now two important questions: 1 - Has he done it more than once, in other Sphere? I have to check the other Immortals, but I would assume he already has done it at least one more time and one Initiate in some other Sphere is, a matter of fact Thanatos. Suggestions? 2 - Why is he doing this? First, he has nothing to lose with the power of more than one Immortal working for him. If he can make it to Hierarch of the 5 Spheres, nobody would be able to stop him. But there is something even more sinister behing it. Thanatos have researched the problem of becoming and Old One very carefully and he is not willing to risk becoming a mortal. He knows he has to reach Hierarch status twice to gain Old One status and he might be able to do it this way. And, should he prove to be wrong, he will be in a much more powerful position. Opinions? Andre Martins *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #11 ******************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:09:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #12 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Sunday, January 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 012 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:51:38 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos >Opinions? >Andre Martins More of a clarification about Vanya than an opinion. It is only lately that she is being seen as benevolent. During her first appearance (M1 Into the Maelstrom) she is a patron of CONQUERORS. Meaning she will side with whomever is winning at the time. She tends to favor the hero who faces unbeatable odds though, as opposed to the guy with all the guns. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 02:19:45 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) Kaviyd pontificated: >In a message dated 98-01-17 18:23:24 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: >>The Darokinian are living in interesting times, as an old Chinese >>saying says. >I did a little research on that one, and I discovered something interesting -- if this saying is Chinese in origin, it has been so distorted from the original that no Chinese scholar recognizes it. Thanks for saying this. This saying has bothered me quite a while. I have no idea where that came from. No one in my family can figure out where it came from (both of my parents were Chinese and Chinese history professors). So if it is based from Chinese, it is either, as you said, distorted from the original, translated strangely, or it is based on some saying that is limited to a region of China. However, once when I posed this question on the net, someone told me that her Chinese professor, a Chinese, did say that saying is indeed from China, but she couldn't help me anymore in tracking down the original. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 04:31:51 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-17 21:15:36 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >Then again, if Mystara was already in federation space, the prime directive >would not allow any interference with a world that has not become technologically advanced to warp drive capability. But of course you have seen just how well the "Prime Directive" is enforced. Do you really think that the Federation could successfully interdict a world for 4000+ years? For that reason alone I would be pretty sure that Mystara is outside of any "civilized" space. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 04:31:56 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-17 22:06:40 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >i wouldn't go that far. Its very possible for it to have been lost. If there >was no distress beacon, what are the chances of it being found? True. But there are two other possibilities to consider: 1) The Beagle went to Mystara deliberately. If so, they would not be the only ones who thought of going there. Eventually, others would come up with the same idea and go there themselves. Whether they know of the Beagle's mission would be irrelevant -- somebody would almost certainly be there in a century or two at most, unless the Federation collapsed to the point of losing interstellar travel capability. 2) The Beagle went to Mystara by accident. This would delay the next arrival from the Federation even longer, but the exact delay would depend on just how common it is for such an accident to dump a starship in or near the Mystara solar system. Obviously, given the lack of subsequent ships showing up, this sort of accident must be rare indeed. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:10:16 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments << I can agree that TN might be a bit too strict, but I found it odd that the non-lawful, non-chaotic D&D druids could be Lawful or Chaotic in AD&D, but not Good or Evil. A better translation would have been to allow them to be NG and NE instead of LN and CN - like nature itself, they can be benevolent or malevolent toward mankind, but they don't give two hoots about order or chaos. >> You got exactly the point. As I wrote it before, D&D druids have to be neutral, but this says nothing about good and evil. A druid cares for his wood (or other terrain) and doesn't care for anything else, but he can be good or evil or pure neutral. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:10:23 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos << (Could somebody provide his real name as it appears in the PWA's? I'm working from memory here.) >> Wulf von Klagendorf << It is implied that Synn is working for an Entropic Immortal. In the VotPA, she kills Herr Rolf and claims his body. The next time Rolf is mentioned, he is alive and heading the Heldannic Knights. So who raised him? Even more importantly, the Night Dragon's description specifies that they have the power to claim the souls of their victims. So the soul of the head of the Heldannic Knights is in the posession of a Night Dragon working for a mysterious Entropic Immortal. And which Entropic Immortal are we fairly certain is already involved with the Knights? You do the math. One thing further- Lady Dolores of Hillsbury is now Princess Dolores Hillsbury in Glantri. She already controls Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels (although her influence is slipping, or gone if you read the Net Almanac) and Prince Kol. What if Thanatos, through Synn, offered Prince Brannart McGregor the secrets of the path of Immortality for the Sphere of Entropy that he's been searching for so long? I think he'd be up for wreaking a little havok. And while we're on the theme, what if Thanatos managed to co-opt Alphaks' pawn, Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany? Alphaks couldn't refuse, even if Thanatos was nice enough to ask first. So it all boils down to this- Thanatos has his fingers in pies in Hattias, Nithia, Glantri, and the Heldannic Territories. What is he up to? Are all these plots connected? Will he bring back the Blood Bretheren to help in Nithia? (Even if they died in your campaign, that shouldn't even slow him down.) What was Synn guarding on Oceania- is it something she doesn't want found, or something Thanatos wants kept under wraps, but on the Prime Plane ready for use if need be? I have my own ideas, but I've rambled on long enough. What do you all think? What is everyone's favorite Entropic Immortal up to? -Andy Morrow III Good, er, I mean, evil old Thanatos. Sometimes he is so subtle that he stands in his own way. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:10:24 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe << Yeah the Afridi (sp). I always wondered what happened to them. With some tweaking, Minea and Jennites are both feasible options. Alphatia and Belissaria are not. I know that Mainland Alphatia was covered with ice prior to the GRoF. I assume the same with Alphatia's "bread basket". From what I remember (Duchy of Ten is upstairs and I am feeling lazy) the Afridhi (sp) are rather adaptive. Not sure how "whats her names" HandMaidens would fit into the Jennite social structure. Perhaps the Afrihdi (I'll spell it right eventually) were the predecessors of the Ethengar. The Ethie are an old race. Perhaps the Handmaiden religion faltered after the GRoF as the "power of the diety was tarnished". >> There was an horse-riding steppe culture in Blackmoor, the Peshwar, if I remember correct. The Afridhi, mountain people, took away some of their homelands. It would be pure irony, if their successors were the Ethengars. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:10:19 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments << I don't really think that they could be true to nature if they were of good or evil alignments. Or at least nature wouldn't be the #1 priority anymore. If the charecter were evil, he would put his own goals ahead of the betterment of nature. If he were good, he would choose (for example) saving lives in a decision even if it hurt nature to a minor degree. I think that druids have to be neutral to be true to nature, but can go about it in a lawful, neutral, or chaotic way. >> Are we starting a new discussion about the perception of alignments? IMO we should drop the alignments altogether. They are making more trouble than they are really worth. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:10:25 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos << I dont agree with this. In or about 950AC the Hattians left to the Heldans. I feel that Thantos killed the Count after the Hattians left. It stated the he raised the counts son to his own liking, not gave birth to him, so 50 years is too far a stretch.He could of planed to get rid of the Vanya clerics in Hattias. Planted thoughts or spread Ideas of glory to the high clerics of Vanya about Heldan to get rid of them so he could warp the SS. Then after the Clerics of Vanya left for Heldan and started to get settled he killed the count and started to warp the SS. I feel that if the clerics of Vanya didnt like the SS ways they would of started a civil war in the county so they could of stayed in their home land next to the great church of Vanya in Thyatis City. >> Oh, right! IIRC the Heldannic Knights left Hattias because of the rising influence of Thanatos. There was a great quest for the remnants of Vanya which led them to Davania obviously. (There was nothing like that, but Vanya probably created some after beginning of the quest.) This ended in the construction of the fortress at Green Bay ("Vanya's Rest" ?) and the exodus to the Heldann Freeholds. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:08:49 +-100 From: Gabriele Ferri Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) >>>The Darokinian are living in interesting times, as an old Chinese >>>saying says. >>I did a little research on that one, and I discovered something interesting -- if this saying is Chinese in origin, it has been so distorted from the original that no Chinese scholar recognizes it. Well, I don't know anything about Chinese sayings, but in a Terry Pratchett's fantasy book "Interesting Times", the words _May you live in interesting times_ are a terrible curse. Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:57:56 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE Space Planes and Dimensions After wading through a *very* full mailbox on this topic I am not going to include the sources of these thoughts, since several folks brought up these points. My own thoughts on the topic... First a correction. One of the early messages said going by the gold box that there were nine planets and a tenth undiscovered one. This is close but not quite right. There were nine planets total (including the undiscovered one) in the solar system according to the gold box. Using earth's solar system for names it goes: Venus, Earth, Mars, Damocles (where asteroid belt is), Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Charon (I think that was the name they used). Mercury, Pluto and a number of the moons of the gas giants were created when the planet Damocles was destroyed. On another tangent... I hold to the theory that the federation is located in another dimension... that is why there hasn't been a rescue mission for thousands of years. Speaking of the rescue mission, I submitted a proposal involving the Federation to the esteemed editor of the net almanc. Unfortunately most of the work for the current almanac had already been hashed out and done, so it was too late. He did like it though, so it may pop up in a future almanac, depending on whether the rest of the almanac folks like the idea. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:47:40 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >1) The Beagle went to Mystara deliberately. If so, they would not be the only ones who thought of going there. Eventually, others would come up with the same idea and go there themselves. Whether they know of the Beagle's mission would be irrelevant -- somebody would almost certainly be there in a century or two at most, unless the Federation collapsed to the point of losing interstellar travel capability. I don't know, space is pretty darn big. I mean it is the biggest thing you can think of. Actually it is so darn big that we have a difficult time thinking of it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:06:44 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions << Obviously, given the lack of subsequent ships showing up, this sort of accident must be rare indeed. >> well, what exactly is your theory then, Kaviyd, on this? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:11:42 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments << Are we starting a new discussion about the perception of alignments? IMO we should drop the alignments altogether. They are making more trouble than they are really worth. >> IMC alignments are usually just used as a starting guideline for the characters. I really don't think that all charecters fall into one of these 9 slots, but it's still a good idea to grab some of the basics of your character. Also, with the Druidic alignments, I think that it's a good idea to base your character as neutral. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:31:38 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-18 10:17:21 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >well, what exactly is your theory then, Kaviyd, on this? I lean towards the dimensional rift explanation myself -- some sort of accident that would normally destroy a starship deposited the Beagle in the Mystara solar system, where it crashed because the physical laws of Mystara were incompatible with nuclear reactors and other such technology. There has been no rescue mission because there is no way for anyone back in the Federation to know where the Beagle went -- and anybody who could work out the math would be reluctant to try because the chance of surviving the trip would be very small. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:41:40 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions << >1) The Beagle went to Mystara deliberately. If so, they would not be the only >ones who thought of going there. Eventually, others would come up with the same idea and go there themselves. Whether they know of the Beagle's mission would be irrelevant -- somebody would almost certainly be there in a century or two at most, unless the Federation collapsed to the point of losing interstellar travel capability. That's not completely true. There are an infinite amount of planets to be discovered and the chances of actually singleing out and finding Mystara would be improbable. The Federation was continueously finding new planets and races that were already in federation territory in the first place. Usually the search efforts for a presumed lost vessel are around 24 hours. If they can't find em by then, it just gets reported to starfleet. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:42:58 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions << I don't know, space is pretty darn big. I mean it is the biggest thing you can think of. Actually it is so darn big that we have a difficult time thinking of it. >> woah, good point. i had no idea. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:04:16 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-18 10:54:20 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >That's not completely true. There are an infinite amount of planets to be >discovered and the chances of actually singleing out and finding Mystara would be improbable. The Federation was continueously finding new planets and >races that were already in federation territory in the first place. Usually the >search efforts for a presumed lost vessel are around 24 hours. If they can't >find em by then, it just gets reported to starfleet. But you missed the premise of my statement -- that the Beagle went to Mystara deliberately. If they did go there deliberately, they must have had a reason for going there -- and surely that same reason would apply for anyone who goes there afterwards. But even if the Beagle was "just exploring" with no particular destination in mind, remember that the Federation would be keeping track of the results brought back by those explorers who were successful. Future explorers would check the results of those surveys to find new places to explore. Since the Beagle did not return from its mission, none of the places it visited would be in the survey files and so would be likely targets for future explorers. If the Federation managed to expand around and beyond Mystara, the lack of information about that Solar System would become quite noticeable, I assure you. They do not have an infinite number of worlds to choose from for exploration -- they would definitely be biased towards exploring those that they are near worlds they already know about. They would be unlikely to overlook a world that is just outside their space -- and even less likely to ignore any worlds that are within their space. Think about it -- you have an unknown world within your space from which no starship has ever returned. Would you not view that world as a potential threat? Forget any Prime Directive -- for all you know, this world is more advance rather than less advanced than the Federation. If Mystara were anywhere near Federation space, the Federation could not afford to ignore it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:25:16 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos << I'd think Thanatos would have to provide Alphaks with some motivation- not that T-Bone couldn't do it, just that it wouldn't be as simple as just saying, "By the way, I'm taking your vampire." >> If he like this nickname? :-) BTW, nothing, what Thanatos do is really simple. He might take over Morphail without Alphaks (and Morphail) even knowing it. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:25:19 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) << I did a little research on that one, and I discovered something interesting -- if this saying is Chinese in origin, it has been so distorted from the original that no Chinese scholar recognizes it. The best theory so far about this saying is that Robert Kennedy made it up during a speech in South Africa -- do a Web search for "Chinese curse" for more info. >> Let us all mourn for the death of another legend. :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:25:22 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos << And I don't see Thanatos getting an identity where he must obey someone to go undetected. >> Why not? Remember, he is very subtle. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:53:26 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands Is anyone else irritated by the change in the Hinterlands between >DotE and the PWAs? I just don't find the Hinterlanders as jungle warriors very compeling. I mean, the Rhino Clan, what were they thinking? Obviously, I ignore the change, but what about the rest of you? Has anyone done anything interesting with the Hinterlands as they were meant to be? I still consider the Hinterlands to be Celtic, though I've downplayed the tribal element somewhat. The tribal names are not all that important, because the Hinterlanders are not truly indigenous to Davania, so really it is not silly to imagine Celtic tribes calling themselves the Leopard Clan or what have you. Imagine what would have happened if early Britain were invaded, and thousands of Celts were rounded up and sent to some place like central Africa. Now imagine they managed to free themselves, but had no way of getting back. They would likely have much of their original culture, and would basically be a transplanted people. But really, TSR's move to change the tribal names was really unnecessary - this is a fantasy world after all! Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:46:33 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route >(BTW, doesn't Selenica's trade route already go south into Karameikos?) Yes, it does, by way of Reedle and over the border into Duke's Road Keep, IIRC. >What I think will likely happen is that sea trade will become a much more vital area to the Northern Reaches nations- Vestland will probably have to expand it's interests in that direction, commissioning more merchant trade vessels, and expand to include the northern regions (ie, Alpha, Leeha, etc.) and Isle of Dawn Territories, and Qeodhar. Also, the Minrothad Guilds would likely benefit greatly from the reduced overland trade (and may even benefit enough that some more greedy members of the nation will seek to ensure things remain the way they are.) I think so too. We could also see the more enterprising of the Milenian city-states, such as Kastelios (which has already been described by the PWAs as becoming more adventurous every year) opening up trade with Ierendi and Minrothad, and possibly Thyatis, for a start. It already has links to Yavdlom and Sind (as mentioned by the PWAs), and it represents another gateway to Davania. If you're interested, check out my article describing the cities of the Addakian Sound region on Shawn Stanley's site (geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/geog.html, scroll down to Davania) for more on the subject. >As for Darokin, it will have to expand it's interests elsewhere than the Eastern Old World. Joshuan's Almanac mentions that Darokin traders have finally begun to renew contacts with the Sindhi (which should become a very vital trading partner now), and the increased activities with the Atruaghin peoples will become another vital trading interest... and will likely lead to greater contacts with the various clans there than in previous years, which will (IMO) inevitably lead to major changes in the lifeways of the Children of Atruaghin- slow changes to be sure, but big ones down the road. Darokinian merchant fleets could also expand farther afield, through lucrative trade in exotic animals in the Thanegioth Archipelago, or in getting first dibs in opening trade routes to the northern Davanian coast, where captive markets await. I'm certain that some merchant houses have already drawn up plans to explore and exploit the region, and to head off Minrothad competition. Darokin is ideally situated to take advantage of trade with civilized regions of Davania, as well as places such as Slagovich and other city-states, possibly through an agreement with Sind. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:57:50 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands >Some day I'll finish up the Hinterland deal and will post it. I'd be interested in seeing what you've got. Davania's a cool place, and I'm trying to collect what people are doing for it. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:01:43 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Hinterlands >I don't see why they can't still be Celtic-types. After all, they are still the descendants of Antalian/Heldannic tribes that were brought over to the southern continent as Nithian slaves (Bruce Heard mentions this in one of his earliest Princess Ark articles- I don't recall if anything else has been made of this, but it sounds the most reasonable to me). The transplant of Antalian slaves by the Nithians is mentioned in the Hollow World boxed set. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:09:36 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos >As for Oceania, I don't know. I'd say that whatever it was is going to be going into action fairly soon, as Synn has apparently been released from her guardianship duties. Perhaps it is the location of yet another Entropic artifact (a la the altered Radiance) like Bruce Heard proposed some time ago? Interesting, or how about this: Oceania lies at a nexus point between dimensions, where various Outer Beings (who defy rational description, but are worshipped in the darker corners of Mystara and the Hollow World) have accessed the Prime Material Plane in the past. Ages ago, the Night Dragons committed a grave affront to dragonkind, the Old Ones, or possibly Immortals so ancient they are unknown today, and as penance they were forced to guard the gate against any intrusions. So the peace was kept for millennia. Oltec colonists, long ago, landed upon the shores of a rocky island, which is now called Oceania, and settled there. Their culture grew great, but their delvings within their own land took them too far into the mountains, where they encountered the Night Dragons, many of whom were driven mad by their confinement and servitude. Those Oceanians unable to flee to the Varellyan domain of Cestia were slaughtered. This past has now been forgotten, but now, with Synn, and other Night Dragons, free at last, perhaps the Outer Beings will probe this weak point in the fabric of the Plane, and extend their influence once again, as they had in ages past. Some of this relates to my campaign, but I think this is workable. What do you guys think? Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #12 ******************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:29:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #13 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, January 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 013 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - the Astral Plane Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos RE: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe Re: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] The Beagle, the Federation, and Warp Speed. [MYSTARA] - Nonhumans of Eastern Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments [MYSTARA] - Re: Thanatos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:12:29 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - the Astral Plane On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, [ISO-8859-1] Andrés Piquer Otero wrote: >Personally, I think that the idea of beings losing dimensions in the Astral would be unplayable. A duo-dimensional character could not TURN AROUND! He would have to continue looking and moving along his original orientation (or move backwards). If a party were not oriented the same way, they would hopelessly scatter to the Astral winds. A bit boring, unfair and inaccurate. perhaps, but also interesting when you compare this to time: one way of understanding memory is as a rear-view of time as a dimension ... we can see only one direction in the fourth dimension, things farther into our past are harder to remember than things closer and we can't see into the future or "turn around". Maybe this is jsut what astral travel is like, which is why it's so hard to understand. I've been reading the chronomancer supplement, which I just picked up last night, and a lot of the way it presents Temporal Prime reminds me of the discussions we've been having about dimensions ... that is, existing in the Plane of Time is essentially just perceiving the fourth dimension of time from an outside vantage point ... here's how i conceptualize this: The entirety of someone's three dimensional existence in chronological Reality exists as a single point in Temporal Prime; the sequence of all of a person's moments of existence from birth to death exists as a line. The reason that these appear as "cords" is because ALL of a person's possible lifelines in adjacent parallel realities are bundled together, giving them thickness and depth as well as length (which is equal to the potential length of a person's life ... their cord "frays out" at the end until all the sequences end). Lifelines appear to "turn" or "bend" where major disruptions in the course of a person's life appear ... things that change their potential future in some way. Alternatively, these are simply manifestations of ONE and ONLY ONE of the three normal dimensions of the real world ... but this is very strange considering the relativity of the three dimensions that I discussed earlier. A strange possibility is this ... what if there is some ABSOLUTE, non-relative point to which the three dimensions of reality are fixed, and this point is NOT the planet the person is standing on ... if this is true, their lifeline (unless they are able in some way to travel through space along the one dimension which can be perceived in Temporal Prime) would spiral around over and over again, with incremental variations (because, for most people, the distance they will ever travel on their own power is very small relative to the distances they move across because of their planet's orbit and rotation). this means Temporal Prime represents the third, fourth, and fifth dimensions ... the third being any one of the three normal dimensions fixed to some absolute reference (possibly unknown to any except chronomancers), the fourth being time (perceived here as the direction along which lifelines extend), and the fifth being probability (which is where parallel versions of the same person's experience exist adjacent to one another in a bundle). By existing in temporal prime, then, a chronomancer can not only negotiate time but can also move between related probabilistic parallel universes. Follow me? Now I have a question: what happens if a person's frame of reference is shifted so that time (which we normally perceive only through memory and motion) becomes seen as an ordinary static dimension BUT one of the three ordinary dimensions then comes to be perceived in the way we see TIME? In other words, what if you could "see" time but only "remember" the visual world around you? i think i have done too many drugs, i am starting to make sense to myself. fuck. m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:17:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >I seriously doubt that there are any interstellar civilizations in the same galaxy as the Mystara solar system, assuming for the moment that it is even part of a galaxy. The Pyrithians (ancestors of the Emerondians) could, IMO, be construed as being an interstellar civilization. They are space pirates in the closest asteroid belt. If you mean technologically advanced interstellar civilizations, I'd tend to agree, though. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:21:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Inconu wrote: >Then again, if Mystara was already in federation space, the prime directive would not allow any interference with a world that has not become technologically advanced to warp drive capability. That's an interesting point, and a good one. DA3 mentions specifically that Captain Riesling has prohibited contact with the people of Mystara, as it is in violation of their "prime directive". I could definitely see this answer. Which doesn't prevent the Federation from sending agents to unobtrusively observe the Mystarans- shades of the ST:TNG episode "First Contact". - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:22:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Inconu wrote: >i wouldn't go that far. Its very possible for it to have been lost. If there was no distress beacon, what are the chances of it being found? There was one, but it can easily be assumed that for some reason (distance, nature of Mystara, etc.) it never reached the Federation. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:22:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 rdroe@iupui.edu wrote: >Well Mystara could be located in federation space, and the Federation could be following the Prime Directive and not interfearing. And if they are doing research there wouldn't they be disguise? Counselor Troy has been a Romulan, Reiker almost everything, Kirk Romulan, and Warf was even back in time on the enterprise so if they are there on Mystara they probably don't want anyone to know. The Federation is known for studying planets before they make contact. Yes. I am really starting to like this idea, myself. Don't forget all the mysterious "alien" activity reported in Joshuan's Almanac... - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:29:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 mar0173@ibm.net wrote: >Let me add a few facts I noticed: >6 - Why has Vanya instructed her followers to stop Alphatia during the WotI? She certainly knew Thyatis would not be able to stand long against the forces of Alphatia, specially with rumours of the glantrians tampering and menacing the magic in Mystara (Haldemar heard it in 1000 AC, so there must have been some whispers going around in Alphatia and getting more wizards to support the war, just in case). And Thyatis is one of the major nations that worship her, she wouldn't want to lose ground there and loss power. And Thyatis was far from its better, with all the corruption and drugged officials it had to do anything else than to buy Glantri some extra time. She has no interest in Glantri, so why risk losing ground to protect other people interests? Perhaps she realizes that subversive influences (not necessarily aware of who- Thanatos) are taking hold of the Hattians, and hence she sent her most loyal followers to take over the Heldann Freeholds, and hoped to wipe out a number of the "straying flock" by pushing Thyatis into battle with Alphatia? >7 - The Hattians have a strong prejudice against women, Vanya has Rathanos as her enemy simply because he preaches male superiority. Many of the Storm Soldiers are her clerics, so she could easily force them to review that society's view. And she does nothing. Again, this could very well go with the above theory. She has expanded her interests, mainly through her "loyal" followers, the Heldannic Knights- they are on Davania, in the Hollow World, in the Savage Coast. She may have given up on the corrupt Thyatis based Hattians. Perhaps that was what the inquisition was about originally? Rooting out the corrupt non-Vanya followers? But it blossomed out of control quickly, and Vanya withdrew her support in order to bring it back under control. >And, maybe, relocating a few burrowers to more strategic locations. And he wanted the Immortals to believe he had been defeated, so that they wouldn't try to undo his work. I think this is the most likely effect- maneuvering the Burrowers (like the one he has in Nithia, that spreads its corrupting influence even while "dead") into more strategic locations, so that when the SoP was restored, they could corrupt even more societies. Perhaps he even maneuvered some out of the Hollow World? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:35:51 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, [ISO-8859-1] Andrés Piquer Otero wrote: >Well, I will go back to my fields of proficiency: >Spheres and planes in D&D obey to Physics, but to the Physics of Aristotle and other Ancient Greek philosophers and sages (not in a strict way, of course). Aristotle bases the world on matter (one sphere), form or idea (the sphere of thought), potency of becoming or being something (the sphere of energy) and the act of being (the sphere of time, a linking of acts and events). As these three interact, matter takes the shape of the four elements, which in turn mix up to form the prime material plane. The Ethereal and Astral are transitional spaces: ether is where the elements process into physical "gruel", Astral a field of pure notions (like the world of ideas of Plato). They take the form of "space": in Greek thought, ether filled up the space between planets. The space beyond the Moon was another state of reality (the supralunar world was it called) and the further you moved, the nearer you got to the absolute perfection: beyond the star was the cause of everything, something akin to the sphere of Prospotitium. Entropy is not featured in Plato, but it springs from the traditional view of Greeks (and Indians and many others) of the multiverse being cyclical, and progressively "degenerating" until it must blow up and start all over again. So, we can mold the Prime as we like, because it is a Physical world (be it Greek, Newtonian, Quantum, Relativity or something of our own devising), but it is difficult to adapt modern theories to the Planes and Spheres, which are neat Aristotelian metaphysical abstracts. Whoever does it, will deserve a big prize! I think YOU deserve a big prize for this excellent explication of the presence of Aristotelian concepts in the Mystaran multiverse ... I know a little bit about Greek thought but had never made the connection so explicit (though I did recognize the four elements, which are much more obvious). But I must say I am not so sure as you that Aristotelian and modern physics are so mutually incompatible. Certainly some of Aristotle's ideas have been discredited, but they are also a fascinating system amongst many fascinating systems which have been proposed to describe an infinitely complex (and thus not perfectly describable) universe. Some (post-)modern philosophers are of the opinion that Greek metaphysics is still superior in some respects to modern post-Newtonian systems (which tend to emphasize matter and energy to the detriment of time, entropy, and especially thought) ... some also find analogies between Greek and Hindu thought, or find metaphysical elements peeking through the twists in Relativity or Quantum Physics. So why not try to take these five spheres and find their counterparts in post-enlightenment scientific paradigms? (relativity-time, quanta-energy, black holes-matter, psychology and semiotics-thought, ecological marxism- entropy ... there are all kinds of things we could fit here but I realize I am not explaining these well. it would take too long, and i don't know if you're interested anyway). for an example of how to use this in the game, what if the Beagle was able to reach Mystara through the use of the gravitic field of black hole to bend time and modify probability,casting it through the 4th&5th dimensions to an alternate plane (possibly also using Vulcan techniques of mind-over-matter to manipulate the thought-projections or will-power which propelled the crew from one place in the multiverse to another through these physical processes ... tell me if this makes any sense). perhaps the "final solution" to the nucleus-problem which presented itself in WotI actually must involve the cooperation of all five spheres through player characters who have reached a level of consciousness profound enough to be able to shift between awareness of being, form, matter, energy, and decay in such a way as to directly alter the meta-temporal process by which the Beagle enters Mystara and becomes the Nucleus, thus compelling the fated end of magic. follow me? m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:41:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: >Oceania lies at a nexus point between dimensions, where various Outer Beings (who defy rational description, but are worshipped in the darker corners of Mystara and the Hollow World) have accessed the Prime Material Plane in the past. Ages ago, the Night Dragons committed a grave affront to dragonkind, the Old Ones, or possibly Immortals so ancient they are unknown today, and as penance they were forced to guard the gate against any intrusions. So the peace was kept for millennia. Or yet another theory, based on a proposal of another post: Oceania lies directly above the resting place of a Burrower in the Hollow World. It was conquered many hundreds of years ago, its peoples driven out, as the forefront of a plan set in motion by Thanatos to bring the Burrower to the surface world to wreak havoc there, uncontained by the Spell of Preservation. Synn was the guardian of the land, and acted to ensure that no one retook the island, while Thanatos' plots went in motion. What exactly was the plan? Three ideas: 1) To dig down through the center of the planet and bring the Burrower up, or... 2) Tying in with the Nightrage/Howl/Storm modules, Thanatos planned to distract the Immortals, undo the SoP (albeit temporarily) and awaken the Burrowers, sending them into strategic locations in the Hollow World, and sending this particular one up to the surface world, or... 3) Either of the above, or neither, but when during the Week of No Magic,Thanatos was able to assist the Burrower in reaching the surface world of Mystara. In any case, the fact that Synn is no longer acting as guardian of Oceania seems to indicate that Thanatos' plan has achieved fruition. Which means there is a very dangerous, Immortal-level (in terms of power) creature on the surface of Mystara. An extremely powerful tool for evil. Whattaya think? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:06:37 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >I agree that it would be an interesting campaign, but assuming this is the Federation from Star Trek, it may not be possible. Traveling at Warp 1 (speed of light), it would take thousands of years to get to Mystara. Now, the finest starships (i.e. The Enterprise-D) can travel up to Warp 9. I'm not sure exactly if warp nine is 9x the speed of light, but if it is then we can assume it would take probably in the upper hundreds of years of straight travel. I don't think that the Federation would send out a rescue ship that far out of the way so that the overall mission would take approx. 1-2 thousand years. As I remember it, the Warp measurement system is NOT linear, it is exponential ... I don't remember the exact curvature of the scale, but a ship travelling at warp 9 is able to traverse hundreds of light years in just days ... plus which there is the presence of wormholes as potential shortcuts. Also, there is an episode of Voyager in which they develop the ability to travel at warp 10, which is the point at which the "curve" becomes infinite ... when this happens, the pilot of the shuttle who makes the attempt begins to exist at every point in space simultaneously, then (when returned to normal space) begins hyper-evolving into an amphibian crocodile-like creature (which is posited as the future potential form of human descendents ... an interesting divergence from the usual assumption that human evolution is "progressive" and oriented towards increasing complexity), and is finally brought back to normal. Now, integrating this with our discussion of dimensions, planes, and time, we can say perhaps that the Beagle was able to reach Mystara by shifting its dimensional frame of reference to shunt through temporal prime (a kind of hyper-hyperspace) and then return to a parallel reality where the sphere of thought (form and idea in Aristotelian terms) is more relatively powerful, enabling magic to overcome physical laws (mind over matter). Adventurers who wanted to deliberately go looking for the Beagle's source might try using high-level chronomancy to "jump" through temporal prime into Federation space ... where they MIGHT then lose the magical ability to jump back, requiring them to locate and commandeer a starship capable of negotiating a powerful gravitic field or temporal anomaly in the manner necessary to return to their own time/space (possibly requiring the help of a mystic who understands the rules of "psychic power" in the Star Trek universe well enough to help them find their way back to a reality where magic as they know it works) .... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:49:33 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) I saw a version of this recently as a bumper sticker that said: "May you live in interesting pants". m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: ><< I did a little research on that one, and I discovered something interesting >-- if this saying is Chinese in origin, it has been so distorted from the original that no Chinese scholar recognizes it. The best theory so far about this saying is that Robert Kennedy made it up during a speech in South Africa -- do a Web search for "Chinese curse" for more info. >> >Let us all mourn for the death of another legend. :-) >Jamuga Khan >"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:45:06 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RE: Blackmoor and an ancient tribe >Yeah the Afridi (sp). I always wondered what happened to them. With some tweaking, Minea and Jennites are both feasible options. Alphatia and Belissaria are not. I know that Mainland Alphatia was covered with ice prior to the GRoF. I assume the same with Alphatia's "bread basket". interesting, but Bellissaria is more southerly and probably would have been outside the glaciers ... anyway Alphatia had inhabitants before the conquest (Yannifey), but there is no canon reference to the initial inhabitants of Bellissaria. IMC the original inhabitants were mostly beastmen descendants ... especially the Xvarts, blue goblins from the old fiend folio who can cast spells and who are the ancestors of the goblins who serve the Honor Island wizards in Ierendi (who are Alphatian-Bellissarian exiles). As Alphatia colonized the island, the orcs, xvarts, and kobolds were either wiped out or made into slaves or hired as auxiliaries by the Alphatian army for use as cannon fodder elsewhere in their colonies ... IoD, Esterhold, etc. ... some may have been taken back to the mainland and been given their freedom in Limn. m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:01:14 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stonehenge(s)? also, remember the Star Trek: TOS episode City on the Edge of Forever? (the one with Joan Collins)? it featured an ancient ruin which served as a gate through time. This ruin was way older than the sentient races known to the Federation ... I think it's been suggested by Star Trek scholars that the city was built by the race otherwise known as the Seeders, who were the first humanoids and who seeded genetic material around the galaxy in such a way as to produce the diverse humanoid species ... an interesting kind of Darwinian creation myth. Now if this race was responsible for the development of hominids on Mystara (perhaps in the form of Immortals of some sort), they could have been involved in the creation of stonehenge-like gates WAY back in prehistoric times ... and if these beings are perhaps connected with the Entities who the Carnifex worshipped, then it is possible that the Carnifex themselves provided the labor for building these momuments (possibly using Dinosaurs as slaves to lift the heavy stone slabs into place -- think Flintstones meets H.P.Lovecraft). Maybe also the placement of the various groups of monoliths is related in some geometric fashion to ley lines or natural gates to alternate realities, so that discovering ALL of the henges on Mystara might allow the opening of a symmetrical circuit which could allow time travel or some massive gate to another reality, possibly even the fabled dimension of nightmares. perhaps the poor bloody druids don't have the faintest clue what they are guarding or how dangerous it is ... or perhaps they DO! now what if servitors of Arik of the One Hundred Eyes or some other Entity were to start figuring out the arrangement of the henges ... now picture a small army of beholders attempting to seize control of all of the gates simultaneously, possibly with the aid of a spelljammer ship ... i will leave off here before i say too much. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:11:18 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-18 19:34:29 EST, you write: << >i wouldn't go that far. Its very possible for it to have been lost. If there >was no distress beacon, what are the chances of it being found? There was one, but it can easily be assumed that for some reason (distance, nature of Mystara, etc.) it never reached the Federation. >> distance would be an interesting idea..... If the DM wanted to integrate all this into the campaign, it could be a Federation ship ( after Federation space had spread into the area) picking up a distress beacon on a frequency that hasn't been used in thousands of years..... ya know , one of those things. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:23:04 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions In a message dated 98-01-18 19:34:49 EST, you write: << The Federation is known for >studying planets before they make contact. Yes. I am really starting to like this idea, myself. Don't forget all the mysterious "alien" activity reported in Joshuan's Almanac. >> True, so maybe they have sent some people down there in search of remnants of the Beagle. They would have to be undercover and try not to contact the natives of Mystara. However they'ld probably want to go to somewhere they could find info on the Beagle. I dunno....sounds like an adventure to me. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:50:37 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] The Beagle, the Federation, and Warp Speed. Just like to throw my 2 cents into the discussion of the Beagle and Federation. Personally, I don't really like the idea of more Federation involvements in Mystara. A single ship from there has caused two major changes to Mystara, more contacts with the Federation will change the world too much. Also, I never felt comfortable with the Federation located in the same galaxy as Mystara. It is clear the Immortals doesn't really understand technology, and I would think the Immortals have able to explored most of the galaxies (depended on the "travling speed" of the teleportation spell. Based on the Gold Box, however, teleportation can travel faster than light). So if the Federation is located in the same galaxy, the immortals should have a chance to study technology in depth already. I like the Beagle to be here just due to a single freak accident that is almost impossible to duplicate. Also, even if there are more Federation explorers arrived at Mystara, wouldn't Beneker try to stop them from messing with Mystara? It seems that Beneker has grow quite fond of the natives, and dislike other people interfere with their growth too much. Another possibility, the Federation consider the immortals to be the "residents" of the planet, and has established diplomatic tie with them, while ignoring the locals on Mystara. As to some others question regarding to Star Trek's warp speed. As with most other science in ST, it is pretty inconsistance. There has been at least three warp speed scale. The original series was cube of warp factor x speed of light. By the time of Next Generation, warp 10 was set to infinate speed, and warp speed is re-scaled to that. Lower warp speeds aren't much different from the old scale, but at speed about warp 7 or so, the two scales are very different. In the future, it seems warp speed scale is changed again, as in the finale of the next generation, a ship was flying at warp above 10. Voyager supposely needs about 70 years to go home, but in one of the movie, Kirk flew Enterprise to the center of the galaxy in a very short time. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:33:31 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Nonhumans of Eastern Karameikos I have a question for those who have B10-Night's Dark Terror. What are the names and symbols of any of the nonhuman tribes mentioned in it? Thanks for the information! Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:32:39 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >You got exactly the point. As I wrote it before, D&D druids have to be neutral, >but this says nothing about good and evil. A druid cares for his wood (or other >terrain) and doesn't care for anything else, but he can be good or evil or pure >neutral. Urk. Alignments..Booring. (Sorry about this blatant and bombastic statement) Why dont we rather put up a list of rules for Druids to follow? Or better: write down a general philosofy. Where do Druids fit in anyway? What I have worked out so far is that they are part of a small religion with cults all over Eastern Brun(They may exist elsewhere aswell) who follow the Three Godesses, aka the Sisters of Nature. These are Djaea, Ordana and Terra. Usually represented in the form of three women. One old, one midleaged and one young. Any thoughts? (a note on my terminology: I tend to use the word God/Goddess rather than Immortal mainly because I find the latter a bit clunky. Also I think people on Mystara see the Imortals as Gods.) Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:43:55 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Druidical alignments On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >Are we starting a new discussion about the perception of alignments? IMO we should drop the alignments altogether. They are making more trouble than they are really worth. The Khan Speaks wisely. I wouldn't go as far as to decide which rules other Game Masters should use in their campaigns, but what I would like to see is descriptions of each religios' beliefs and requirements for clerics. Not stat reqiurements but what is required of them when it comes to behaviour. It would make a lot more sense than just an alignment requirement. Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:28:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Morrow Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Thanatos << << I'd think Thanatos would have to provide Alphaks with some motivation- not that T-Bone couldn't do it, just that it wouldn't be as simple as just saying, "By the way, I'm taking your vampire." >> If he like this nickname? :-) BTW, nothing, what Thanatos do is really simple. He might take over Morphail without Alphaks (and Morphail) even knowing it. Jamuga Khan>> My point exactly Khan. I did not mean to imply in my first post that Thanatos and Alphaks would just get together for a beer in Pandius and the Big T would ask for a loaner. In fact, if Thanatos felt that his contingent of supporters in Glantri wasn't strong enough he could undoubtedly push any of the princes into doing what he wanted, its just that Prince Morphail seemed like an aesthetic addition to the group. - -AMIII *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #13 ******************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:06:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #14 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Tuesday, January 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 014 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - Re: Thanatos [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Adventures in Alphatia: Ambur Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Druidical alignments [MYSTARA] - The Beagle [MYSTARA] - A New Idea for Skills Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - A New Idea for Skills Re: [MYSTARA] - A New Idea for Skills Re: [MYSTARA] - A New Idea for Skills RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:29:11 -0500 From: Eric Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Hello I had a strange idea about the rescue of the Beagle.Maybe the federation came back during the great rain of fire. The rescue of the Beagle, in that period would be praticly impossible... The change of axis of the planet will allow praticly no survivors... So the federation could considere Mystara and is solar system a risky place and don't go there anymore (except from some strange alien activity noticed in the Joshuan Almanac who could be some rogues...) Eric *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:44:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Morrow Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Thanatos Rob Rickard Wrote: <> You are right that Thanatos probably killed the Count and did most of the corrupting of the SS after the Hattian invasion of the Heldann Freeholds. In fact, its quite possible that the one of the reasons that the Count was killed was that he had uncovered some evidence of corruption in the hierarchy of the SS. I doubt that the clerics of Vanya would have started a civil war, but they certainly would have drawn Vanyas attention to the whole situation. The SS wouldnt be walking around wearing t-shirts with, Entropy or Bust, on them. In fact their attitudes were probably very similar to those of the Heldannic Knights leading up to the Inquisition (and if you remember from the PWA and JA, Vanya got angry with her clerics only after the Inquisition began.) - -AMIII *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:11:29 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world All this recent discussion of Blackmoor got me thinking..what about gazetteer-type projects for the Blackmoor societies? Mr. Arneson left a lot of room to work with and some areas (Egg of the Coot,Mainland Thonia,Duchy of the Peaks,Afridhi lands) just beg to be put into more detail. Well, to me at least. Not sure how the rest of you view this but just wanted to toss out the idea in case anyone has the time,ideas,desire and will to create a GAZ for some Blackmoor culture. -Mischa Trent Lott murdered campaign reform and now he's looking for the killer..makes you wonder if Trent Lott drives a White Ford Bronco. -Mark Russell *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:29:15 EST From: Alex295 Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Adventures in Alphatia: Ambur Ambur- Ambur is fairly tame by Alphatian standards. The stand out notions are the theatre and astrology. I admit to not doing much adventuring there. In fact, I used it as a stopping place to relax and spend some of that loot. The party that did go there stayed only a short period as it became boring. To give some examples of adventures for Ambur, I gave a call to an old gaming friend. Between the two of us, we came up with a couple of ideas. All of which are pre-WotI. Adventure #1 based on a real adventure A few months back, the Thieves Guild was approached by an actress who wishes to acquire the amulet. Her reasons are exactly what they appear to be; to keep the art clean. The Thieves Guilds in most parts of Alphatia are handicapped in their pursuits by the surplus of magic. The Guild in Ambur share this burden. To compensate and survive they have turned their attentions to smuggling, loansharking, and "the entertainment field". The amulet job was excepted to save face. As expected, the Guild is too rusty to gain the amulet. Since the real employer has already paid them half of the money up front, they are compelled to continue. They cannot return the money as most of it has been "invested" in other ventures. With each failed attempt the Guild has gotten more desperate. In this state, they have hired the PCs to retreive the amulet. They will give the party the balance of the money owed them by the real employer. The Guild gets one of its own to act as the real employer. He is an actor by trade. His parents are of the Guild. The Guild has often used him to interact between the Guild and the Alphatian Mages. He is well cultured and a formidable magist in his own right. He also has some fairly good contacts with the mages as well as his ties with the Guild. He will tell his reasons for wanting the amulet as the same as the reasons the real employer has given. The real employer is an Alphatian Mage that is an active patron of the performing arts. She is quite sincere at her attempts to keep her beloved theatre clean of posers. She discovered the truth behind the actor's skill some time ago. As a high standing member of Alphatian society, she will not soil her hands with the matter. She prefers to pay others to do the task for her. She is getting impatient with the lack of response from the Guild. She has already sent word of her concerns and hinted at seeking others to do the job. The PCs could discover that the supposed employer is of the Guild and that the promised payment is half of what could be acheived by working directly for the real employer. The Guild will obviously take offense at this and will be hard pressed to refund the forwarded money to the employer. As such, they will be quite displeased with the PCs. The target is a minor mage and a fair actor. The main strength of this NPC comes from the multitude of admirers that flaunt their praise and money upon him. The amulet as well as several other enchanted items fill out the inventory. BTW the amulet and items were presents from a patron that the actor has long since done away with. The Amulet gives the wearer a +4 to the Acting Skill. It also affords the wearer a +2 to Charisma. The actor has a big performance coming soon. The real employer wishes to have the amulet in hand prior to this in order to expose him as a fraud in front of everyone. As you might guess, the actor not getting harmed by the PCs is highly stressed. If the real employer wanted the poser killed, she would have done so herself. She sees exposing him as the best option. Whatever happens, the PCs will gain some prestige if their involvement in the matter is known. The Guild doesn't really want the attention but also doesn't want the fact that they had to go outside the Guild to get the job done to get out. The are even willing to up the ante to buy this secrecy. If any of the Guild gains any attention then it will be the pseudo employer and he will distance himself from the Guild. An increase of prestige on his part will only aid the Guild in the long run. Adventure #2 rough idea A crisis has befallen StarReach. Its up to the DM but anything will suffice. A lich, a vampire, or even a reappearing villian of the PCs could all set up shop in the capital. The baddies are playing things smart and acting like good upstanding citizens. All the while, they are continuing in their certain expertise of evil. The PCs see them for what they are and go about trying vanquish the city of the threat. They are hampered by a sense of disbelief and disinterest by the Alphatian mages. The DM should utilize the Law to handicap the PCs. Also a great opportunity to show the frivilous nature of the Alphatians. The PCs must find evidence and more importantly find NPCs they can count on to show this evidence to. Once this has been done, the PCs will be able to do as they please concerning the threat. They may even have the blessing of the Ambur elite. But don't forget a strong warning by them to not make a mess in the process. Depending on the threat and the evidence, the threat may be out of the range of the PCs. Aid from the Alphatians is feasible. Adventure #3 based upon an actual adventure An Alphatian astrologer has sighted a strange occurance while studying the Mystaran moon Matera. Using Detect spells and such, he has noticed influxes of powerful magics coming from the surface. Presenting his findings to his fellows, he has been joined and supported in sending an expedition there to investigate. The PCs are hired to suppliment the contengent of adventurers and crew aboard a skyship capable of travel through the Void. The influx is the gateway to the Immortal City of Pandius. On the moon, the party will encounter all manner of beasts, some unknown to Mystara proper. Eventually, they will come to the gateway. What happens from there is up to the DM. The PCs and NPCs could enter the Immortal City. The reception may vary from experiences the players have had with Immortals in the past. Either way, any visit no matter how long can be balanced out gamewise as the Immortals erase all memory of it from their minds. Adventure #4 based on a under construction campaign. An Alphatian Astrologer discovers some alarming predictions while reading the astral bodies. He sees the fore telling of the events described in the Wrath of the Immortals and resulting sinking of Alphatia. None of his contemporaries beleive him, so he is forced to act on his own. He hires the PCs to thwart the demise of Alphatia be confronting the foretold threats. The DM is urged to make the predictions vague. And I would suggest keeping away from the Immortal's Fury. Instead focus on events the PCs could not address. The main reason for this adventure is to give another facet to the Great War. Who knows, maybe the PCs on this adventure could meet up with those playing the Immortal's Fury. Could be interesting. I am sure the other Immortals inspired followers to act on their and their side's behalf. Well here is that chance. Just imagine pro Alphatian PCs trying to stop Thincol from joining the Glantri cause. Or pro Alphatian PCs getting the elf spy out of Glantri before Brannart can "fit him with cement shoes". Have fun with it. Fill in some of those spots that you may of felt were ommitted from WotI. Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to alter the entire events as described in WotI. PCs don't always suceed in their adventures. Point them in directions where they seem to suceed yet circumstances beyond their control cause the given canon chain of events to basically happen. Next installment....... Ar yep I'm going down the list. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:04:22 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments << Why dont we rather put up a list of rules for Druids to follow? Or better: write down a general philosofy. >> That's a good idea. Druids of different areas should have different oaths to fulfill to show thier dedication and loyalty. I'll try to come up with something by tonight on this. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:00:14 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments << Where do Druids fit in anyway? >> Druids act as protectors of a certain terrain, much like sprites, Acteon, dryads, and creatures like that. However, the Druids are humans, may acess the druidic sphere for spells, and may be played as a PC. They mostly serve a nook the ecosystem of thier terrain. Like how an enviornmentalist picks up aluminum cans on the side of the road. The druid trys to keep nature's balance steady. Make sure there is no gaps in the food chain, no creatures are going extinct, things like that. Also, he/she will make choices concerning the welfare of the area as well. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:09:01 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Chinese saying (was [Mystara] Selenica Caravan Route) On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >I saw a version of this recently as a bumper sticker that said: "May you live in interesting pants". Ah. Thats Terry Pratchett's Character Cohen the Barbarians favourite reply to those annoying Chinese-like people living on the other side of Discworld when they told him: "May you live in interesting times." Maybe Pratchett is the origin of the entire thing? Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:09:05 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions << (except from some strange alien activity noticed in the Joshuan Almanac who could be some rogues...) It is very possible for a rogue ship to have tried coming to Mystara. It would explain how there have already been sightings. Rogue ships usually would have a small amount of utilities at thier disposal(for concealment of them or thier ship). Also, rogue ships could be forged of any race or even a mix of races. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:02:39 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments << (a note on my terminology: I tend to use the word God/Goddess rather than Immortal mainly because I find the latter a bit clunky. >> God/Goddesses exist on most Prime Planes and heavily throughout the astral plane, but on Mystara there is no gods. There are Immortals. They go by completely different rules in almost every aspect. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:47:01 +0100 From: Staffan Johansson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Druidical alignments At 12:02 1998-01-19 EST, Inconu wrote: ><< >(a note on my terminology: I tend to use the word God/Goddess rather than Immortal mainly because I find the latter a bit clunky. >> >God/Goddesses exist on most Prime Planes and heavily throughout the astral plane, but on Mystara there is no gods. There are Immortals. They go by completely different rules in almost every aspect. However, they *are* regarded the same way gods are regarded in (for example) FR. I doubt Joe Farmer knows the difference between an Immortal and a God. I believe that was the poster's point. - -- Staffan Johansson (d96sj@efd.lth.se) Did you know that "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:03:25 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Beagle The ideas of incorporating the Star Trek Federation or other "aliens" are very good. But the Beagle being part of this is impossible. It seems like many of us dont know the facts of the matter. First of all, the Beagle didnt come from this galaxy, universe or even this dimension. In its original dimension it was exploring parts of their galaxy. It happened to be caught in a freak energy vortex which took it through dimensional barriers. Out of control, the ship crashed on Mystara in 4000BC. A distress beacon was set up. It didnt reach their home, not because of distance, but because it was in a different dimension. To understand the importance of the ship coming from a different dimension I'll give you a valid example: The Old Ones are in a different dimension than Mystarans. Since they cant breed they set up an experiment to create new Old Ones. This experiment is known as the Multiverse. Imagine a planet which the Old Ones live on. And the multiverse is just an experiment to them. Now imagine a space ship flying by the Old Ones planet. Because of their experiments something crazy happens where that space ship is actually sucked into their experiment. That's what we have in this instance, a dimensional crossing. That's why the distress beacon will never be answered. And although a Star Trek-like Federation could exist, the Beagle couldnt be part of it.If you are looking at DA3 you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. In that module the ship was from our own galaxy. It crashed into our planet because of a malfunction. The module mentions the FSS (Federation Survey Ships) Foxglove. It was lost just like the FSS Beagle. One of the reasons for the crewmen wanting to leave the ship is because it took nearly 50 years for a rescue ship to get the FSS Foxglove. If 50 years was a long time, the GSB (Galactic Survey Bureau) had hundreds of years to rescue the Beagle before it imploded. And with still no sign of them it has now been 5000+ years. Years after that module, WotI came out with a new explanation and became canon. The rule being the latest material is canon. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:33:33 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - A New Idea for Skills As promised, here is the article I wrote some time back: A New Idea for Skills: Ever notice that, as characters advance, their skills do not increase by a large margin? By this I mean their nonweapon skills. For example, according to the rules, a character with an 18 Intelligence will get seven skill slots when created at first level - there is a base of four, plus three extra for his or her high Intelligence, which corresponds to bonus languages. While this is good, when the PC reaches fifth level, he or she only gets one extra skill slot - which in some cases does not reflect what a high Intelligence can gain from life's experiences. To me, it would be far more logical to apply the initial bonus for higher Intelligence at all levels at which bonus skills are gained. This reflects the view that, the more intelligent a person is, the more likely they are going to pick up new things, or improve what they already know. This would also make gaining skills more meaningful, and more open to possibilities. Having one extra skill slot every four levels' worth of adventuring is quite paltry given the time it takes, and the number of experiences a PC is sure to have along the way. Let me include an example of how this would work. First, let's see how added skills work under the official system: Rolf the Warrior has an Intelligence of 15, which not only grants him an extra language when he is created, or for later in life; it also grants him one extra skill slot on top of the four he begins play with when he is created - giving him five total. He decides to take Swimming (CON), Boating (INT), Glassblowing (DEX - his profession before he decided to take up monster bashing), Tracking (INT), and Drinking (CON). For his extra language he chooses Thyatian on top of his native Heldannic. As he adventures, Rolf crosses the Sea of Dread many times (no small feat in itself) and makes himself known in many cities. He is even imprisoned in Kastelios for two months for theft; he ends up spending a total of one and a half years in the city and its environs. When he reaches fifth level, Rolf would normally be allowed one extra skill slot, as per the rules. He would have a great range of choices, but could take only one. He decides to take Navigation (INT) - a logical choice, given that he would have picked up a thing or two from the sailors he met on his journeys. Unfortunately, this rule does not reflect Rolf's whole experience - he could have picked up the local dialect of Milenian, or he could have learned about the local legends. Under my new system, Rolf would gain two slots. This is a slight improvement, I admit, but it is not one that bends canon rules too much, and it allows Rolf's player to have his character benefit more from his experiences. Rolf decides to take Navigation (INT) and Milenian - Kastelios dialect (INT), though he could have taken Local History - Kastelios (INT) instead, or something else entirely. In any case, Rolf's development as a PC is now a better reflection of his experiences. Compared to other fantasy RPGs, D&D falls a bit behind in the area of skills - an essential element for rounding out a character in my view. I believe my modification, which simply extends the Intelligence bonus to all levels at which skill slots are gained, can even this score somewhat - without changing the system dramatically. Also, when looking at the PC's entire adventuring career, the extra skill slots they gain, on average, will not be very high. Many players will likely invest their characters' slots in improving skills they already have, or will take skills that round out their characters a bit more. Nonweapon skills are, after all, a playing aid to add some realism and depth to the game. So, there it is (finally). This article is also available on Shawn's site (though this is an older version), and my own. Feel free to think about what I've put up here - I just thought I'd share what I do in my campaigns, and my players sure like the idea. Cheers, Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:39:08 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thanatos >Oceania lies directly above the resting place of a Burrower in the Hollow World. It was conquered many hundreds of years ago, its peoples driven out, as the forefront of a plan set in motion by Thanatos to bring the Burrower to the surface world to wreak havoc there, uncontained by the Spell of Preservation. >Synn was the guardian of the land, and acted to ensure that no one retook the island, while Thanatos' plots went in motion. >What exactly was the plan? Three ideas: >1) To dig down through the center of the planet and bring the Burrower up, or... >2) Tying in with the Nightrage/Howl/Storm modules, Thanatos planned to distract the Immortals, undo the SoP (albeit temporarily) and awaken the Burrowers, sending them into strategic locations in the Hollow World, and sending this particular one up to the surface world, or... >3) Either of the above, or neither, but when during the Week of No Magic, Thanatos was able to assist the Burrower in reaching the surface world of Mystara. >In any case, the fact that Synn is no longer acting as guardian of Oceania seems to indicate that Thanatos' plan has achieved fruition. Which means there is a very dangerous, Immortal-level (in terms of power) creature on the surface of Mystara. An extremely powerful tool for evil. >Whattaya think? This is pretty interesting, too. Either my idea or this one would be good. Or how about a synthesis of the two: The Outer beings have struck a deal with Thanatos (who is ever eager to sow discord and death): he works to weaken the dimensional barrier, and the Outer Beings work to serve his chaotic ends, in repayment for his aid? So, he works to free the Burrowers (who themselves might even be creations of the Outer Beings - they are rmeiniscent of the Cthonians from Brian Lumley's "The Burrowers Beneath" - good fiction in the Lovecraftian style, but I digress). Whether or not he will honour this deal is up to us - knowing what he's like, he could just as easily try to double-cross them. I'll email you more tomorrow on this Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:52:07 +0100 From: Staffan Johansson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A New Idea for Skills At 20:33 1998-01-19 -0500, Geoff Gander wrote: >As promised, here is the article I wrote some time back: >A New Idea for Skills: >Ever notice that, as characters advance, their skills do not increase by a large margin? By this I mean their nonweapon skills. For example, according to the rules, a character with an 18 Intelligence will get seven skill slots when created at first level - there is a base of four, plus three extra for his or her high Intelligence, which corresponds to bonus languages. While this is good, when the PC reaches fifth level, he or she only gets one extra skill slot - which in some cases does not reflect what a high Intelligence can gain from life's experiences. IMO, this is the sole saving grace of Skills & Powers. The system for NWPs is much better. You start off at a lower level in yuor profs, your stats don't mean that much, but you advance much faster (as fast as +3 to skills in one level if you concentrate on that). - -- Staffan Johansson (d96sj@efd.lth.se) Did you know that "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:39:57 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A New Idea for Skills Geoff Gander rambled (au998@freenet.carleton.ca): [Snip] >To me, it would be far more logical to apply the initial bonus for higher Intelligence at all levels at which bonus skills are gained. This reflects the view that, the more intelligent a person is, the more likely they are going to pick up new things, or improve what they already know. [Snip] I agree that the advancement of skills in OD&D is pretty poor. I also agree that the system of non-weapon proficiencies in Skills and Powers is much better. I don't agree that a high-int character should gain the int bonus every time they advance. Consider that the effects of inteligence on the number of skill slots agined will then be very large, much larger than it otherwise would have been. Mages (who by virtue of their character class will have good int) will gain many more skill slots than a warrior. While it is appropriate for a magic user to know many things, that should be represented by knowledge in fields which others don't have. A powerful, skilled, elderly magic user may know much on the nature of the outer planes, but that doesn't stop the powerful, skilled, elderly warrior from knowing much on the nature of blacksmithing. Of course, there is nothing to stop the warrior from taking high intelligence, but the magic user is generally always going to have one of the highest int's anyway, and would gain a double advantage. Perhaps a better solution would be to increase the number of skill slots gained to, say, one every two levels rather than four. (A DM of mine tried to introduce a similiar rule in a AD&D Skills and powers campaign. I saw my warrior character (int 14) being left in the dust, having about 20-25 CP's, while the mage had 40-45. I kicked and screamed until the idea was dropped.) - -- Glenn Butcher | knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au "Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)" (Linus Torvalds, about his failing hard drive on linux.cs.helsinki.fi) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:57:11 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A New Idea for Skills The situation that you describe does not sound excessive, but for a character with an intelligence of 18 it could get excessive -- 4 slots all at once every four levels? One possibility to consider might be to adjust the rate at which skills are gained according to intelligence. Let us say that a character gains one slot at level x and one slot per x levels thereafter. For a character of average (9-12) intelligence, x = 5, which gives him slightly fewer skills than under the official system. Add intelligence penalty to x, or subract intelligence bonus from x, for characters who do not have average intelligence. In the worst case, a character with intelligence 3 gains one slot at level 8 and another every 8 levels thereafter. In the best case, a character gains one slot at level 2 and another every 2 levels thereafter - -- still pretty good, but not quite as excessive as the earlier proposal. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:21:49 +0100 From: Peter Balazs Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Hi! >>Uh, oh, "objective evidence" should not be talked about! At least not in a scientific community! (Which we aren´t!) >can you explain what you mean by this? I am not particularly hung up on conventional science as some are ... what about alternative philosophical formulations of the nature of reality (the world as a vast illusion, etc.)? 1.) There are the philosophical-theological problems. How can sombeody decide, if he really lives on earth at this time, etc.. and is not just imagining everything (solipsism). Or how do you know that the laws you find for physics (or any other science) truly have something to do with reality, and not the reality (or god or somebody) adapts to match this laws, you´ve found (because they are sound, beautiful, holy, or anything else). And so on, and so on,..... As a natural scientist you normally ignore such thoughts, because one of your axioms is that there is something like reality! 2.) But on a more practical level: You will NEVER know, if a theory truly is right, if it is true. Because you can never prove a physical theory, you can only disprove it. (Popper; Induction-Deduction) So a theory in Physcis is excepted, when many tries to disprove it, have failed, then it is called a "good" theory. Practically it is some kind of democratic (or better consentic) decision, if nobody (meaning no known scientist) tries to argue against the theory or tires to disprove it (seriously), it is excepted. But as you can see, this is not always right. For example the laws of newton were excepted for two centuries, but then they were disproved (relativity & quantum physics) >hmm. this is interesting. what if the continued undead existence of certain persons is a manifestation in this world of a disjuncture in their probabilistic existence in a parallel dimension ... i.e. their quantum soul is out of phase. ? whaddaya think? Nice!! But the problem is that that will have no effect on play! >>Thank God, you can´t! It wozuld be great to timetravel, but non-causal physics must be a pain-in-the-*ss! (If it can be formulated probably!) >good thing we're working with a fantasy world so we don't have to have all the decimal places figured out to do what we came here for. But time travel is a problem also for the logic of the gaming world! So it is a problem for the DM! >okay fine, but my point is that when you are thus transformed, you will become completely unable to perceive objects in the normal world as such ... you won't see them as flat or two-dimensional, because you won't see them at all. What you would see would be an image formed out of an infinite number of infinitely thin slivers of conventional reality which exist in incremental parallel to one another in the fourth dimension. That is, this is what you would see if light were still coming to you along either the third or the second dimension ... but if light can travel through the fourth dimension (an interesting question) then this complicates things even more. No, why? A picture is two-dimensional, right? But if you look at it, you will see something, don´t you? Or am I missing something? >1) I forgot to mention (took for granted) that with my reference to subjective time variations, you can only travel to the future! At least you travel faster. I think that the AD&D rule about aging after casting some spells reflects this: Haste (it does not give ultra-speed, it changes pace in your subjective timeline, so that you see everybody move slower; if it were just ultra-speed, you would lose accuracy and have attack penalties, no bonuses, for instance; you don´t see yourself acting faster). That´s a nice idea! >2) I like the idea of Matt about seeing infinite Mystaras, each slightly different from the other. I don´t like it! Because IMO if somebody believs in it, it will lead to a very solipsistic, very evil point of view, anything that matters will be you! Because where´s the point in helping somebody, where´s the point in not killing anybody, in protecting the world, in anything except making yourself mor comfortable, as every possible thing will happen to the others, and why should Klaus from this universe, who dies because you didn´t help him, be any more important than the same Klaus from another universe, who will not die. >3) This takes us to seeing magic as a tampering (as Matt suggested) on the laws of probability: What´s "eldritch system"? But nice thought! I will think about it, and maybe comment it somewhen in the future! >Let's just say that a view of magic which I find plausible for a fantasy universe would ultimately rest upon the view that Andres has presented, and it would not matter what the "normal" physical laws were ... all that would matter would be the number of individuals who had a complex understanding of the nature of parallel realities and the ability to shift between planes along a dimensional axis (which would appear to be nothing other than casting spells in one ordinary plane) ... 1.) If you accept magic as changing the plane, I would think it would the more difficult the more physical laws you disregard and the more you change it. Because I would think that the "parrallel" universes are the similar the nearer they are. So if you chnage to a universe, where you can fly, it is farther away than a universe, where your food tastes better (cantrip, for example). 2.) It just will be the same, if you don´t accept "parallel" universes (like me), and magic tempers with the dimension of probability. The more you chaqnge the probability the more magic you need. ************************************************************ Peter Balazs Wurlitzerg. 37/12 1160 Wien 9003307@unet.univie.ac.at http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs ************************************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #14 ******************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:08:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #15 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Tuesday, January 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 015 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - Mystara NetLogo Contest? Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara NetLogo Contest? Re: [MYSTARA] - Nonhumans of Eastern Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] The Beagle, the Federation, and Warp Speed. Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - Sphere of Time or Dimension of Time? [MYSTARA] - The Federation [MYSTARA] - Mystara Universe & Alien Cultures [MYSTARA] - Immortal Spheres [MYSTARA] - Thunder Rift & AD&D Multiverse RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:59:09 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Beagle >Years after that module, WotI came out with a new explanation and became canon. The rule being the latest material is canon. Who made that rule? MY rule is the best material is canon. My observation is that in most cases for OD&D older material is better. Aaron Alston usually did a good job, but there are numerous holes in WotI indicative of a rush job and sloppy editting. The inconsistancy between DA3 and WotI is minor compared to some of the other stuff (like giving demons unlimited spell-casting). Use the Beagle as you wish in your campaign, but if you give me "The rule being the latest material is canon." I will agree to disagree ... vehemently. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:10:36 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Peter Balazs wrote: >Hi! >>>Uh, oh, "objective evidence" should not be talked about! At least not in a scientific community! (Which we aren´t!) >>can you explain what you mean by this? I am not particularly hung up on conventional science as some are ... what about alternative philosophical formulations of the nature of reality (the world as a vast illusion, etc.)? >1.) There are the philosophical-theological problems. How can sombeody decide, if he really lives on earth at this time, etc.. and is not just imagining everything (solipsism). Or how do you know that the laws you find for physics (or any other science) truly have something to do with reality, and not the reality (or god or somebody) adapts to match this laws, you´ve found (because they are sound, beautiful, holy, or anything else). And so on, and so on,..... >As a natural scientist you normally ignore such thoughts, because one of your axioms is that there is something like reality! >2.) But on a more practical level: You will NEVER know, if a theory truly is right, if it is true. Because you can never prove a physical theory, you can only disprove it. (Popper; Induction-Deduction) So a theory in Physcis is excepted, when many tries to disprove it, have failed, then it is called a "good" theory. Practically it is some kind of democratic (or better consentic) decision, if nobody (meaning no known scientist) tries to argue against the theory or tires to disprove it (seriously), it is excepted. But as you can see, this is not always right. For example the laws of newton were excepted for two centuries, but then they were disproved (relativity & quantum physics) >>hmm. this is interesting. what if the continued undead existence of certain persons is a manifestation in this world of a disjuncture in their probabilistic existence in a parallel dimension ... i.e. their quantum soul is out of phase. ? whaddaya think? >Nice!! But the problem is that that will have no effect on play! >>>Thank God, you can´t! It wozuld be great to timetravel, but non-causal physics must be a pain-in-the-*ss! (If it can be formulated probably!) >>good thing we're working with a fantasy world so we don't have to have all the decimal places figured out to do what we came here for. >But time travel is a problem also for the logic of the gaming world! So it is a problem for the DM! >>okay fine, but my point is that when you are thus transformed, you will become completely unable to perceive objects in the normal world as such ... you won't see them as flat or two-dimensional, because you won't see them at all. What you would see would be an image formed out of an infinite number of infinitely thin slivers of conventional reality which exist in incremental parallel to one another in the fourth dimension. That is, this is what you would see if light were still coming to you along either the third or the second dimension ... but if light can travel through the fourth dimension (an interesting question) then this complicates things even more. >No, why? >A picture is two-dimensional, right? But if you look at it, you will see something, don´t you? Or am I missing something? >>1) I forgot to mention (took for granted) that with my reference to subjective time variations, you can only travel to the future! At least you travel faster. I think that the AD&D rule about aging after casting some spells reflects this: Haste (it does not give ultra-speed, it changes pace in your subjective timeline, so that you see everybody move slower; if it were just ultra-speed, you would lose accuracy and have attack penalties, no bonuses, for instance; you don´t see yourself acting faster). >That´s a nice idea! >>2) I like the idea of Matt about seeing infinite Mystaras, each slightly different from the other. >I don´t like it! >Because IMO if somebody believs in it, it will lead to a very solipsistic, very evil point of view, anything that matters will be you! Because where´s the point in helping somebody, where´s the point in not killing anybody, in protecting the world, in anything except making yourself mor comfortable, as every possible thing will happen to the others, and why should Klaus from this universe, who dies because you didn´t help him, be any more important than the same Klaus from another universe, who will not die. This exactly the concept explored in the Amber books which were referenced by Matt when he described his idea of multiple Mystaras. The princes of Amber were extremely self centered Machiavellian powerhouses who saw themselves as the center of the universe. Of course, they were. But in any case I have a similar idea in my own multiverse. It is just that the players are completely unaware of the situation and only a few npcs are. Maybe years down the road they will begin to become aware of the alternate Mystaras out there (one where Alphatia still exists, another where the radiance never existed) and they will start to wonder "Do we discover these alternate realities? Or do we create them? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:51:07 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara NetLogo Contest? Galwylin: Its closer to the end of the month, and so I thought I'd send a poke in your direction again, in case you've had the time to done any of the necessary calculations yet. Just interested in knowing if there is a 'clear winner(s)' yet (though I'm not interestsed in which one(s) they are), and approximately how many people have voted so far. ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:46:14 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara NetLogo Contest? I've had 67 votes so far. So far about four entries are getting the majority of votes with a few scattered around to the others. I just want to remind everyone to only vote once. I've tried to catch double voting and find out which vote they want to count. But if I miss some I'll have to throw out both votes when the deadline is reached. That deadline is Jan 31. Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >Galwylin: >Its closer to the end of the month, and so I thought I'd send a poke in your direction again, in case you've had the time to done any of the necessary calculations yet. >Just interested in knowing if there is a 'clear winner(s)' yet (though I'm not interestsed in which one(s) they are), and approximately how many people have voted so far. >;-) >Jenni >-- >Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs >strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> >God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. >Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" >And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production ICQ #6755972 Vote for the Mystara Netlogo! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:00:08 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Nonhumans of Eastern Karameikos << I have a question for those who have B10-Night's Dark Terror. What are the names and symbols of any of the nonhuman tribes mentioned in it? Thanks for the information! >> Sigh, here we go: Elves Vyalia: Oak tree set with stars Callarii: Sad elven woman on a white horse (their epic heroine, Callarii) Gnolls Death' Head (Galt-kalat): A half-decayed head Goblins Wolfskull (Kloss-lunk): Wolf's head Red-blade (Gnhasska): Bloodied sword Viper (Jaggadash): Snake Yellow-fang (Faz-plak): Ruined tower Hobgoblins Bloodhead (Vlackkag): Severed head Orcs Dark Web (Nyy-akk): Black spider Bald Dog (Pftark): Running Dog Pixies Ilya (No symbol) Some members of some of these clans work as mercenaries for the Queen in B12 - Queen's Harvest. The Callarii deem white horses as sacred (it's a part of the adventure). Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:00:03 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions << The Pyrithians (ancestors of the Emerondians) could, IMO, be construed as being an interstellar civilization. They are space pirates in the closest asteroid belt. If you mean technologically advanced interstellar civilizations, I'd tend to agree, though. >> An interplanetar or interstellar civilization need not to be a technological one. I remember the Void from CoM. Of course, magic must replace technology. BTW, there was the idea of Pyrithians (and Emerondians) to be successors of Beagle crewman who mastered enough magic to left Mystara. They are all "little, green men". Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:00:19 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world << All this recent discussion of Blackmoor got me thinking..what about gazetteer-type projects for the Blackmoor societies? Mr. Arneson left a lot of room to work with and some areas (Egg of the Coot,Mainland Thonia,Duchy of the Peaks,Afridhi lands) just beg to be put into more detail. Well, to me at least. Not sure how the rest of you view this but just wanted to toss out the idea in case anyone has the time,ideas,desire and will to create a GAZ for some Blackmoor culture. -Mischa >> Don't forget Skandahar and Peshwar! BTW, Dave Arneson created a giant 10-level-dungeon for the Egg of Coot. AFAIK it's unpublished. I heard about it three years ago from another surfer who knew somebody who played it. It was so difficult that Gary Gygax created a much worse dungeon (one of the old AD&D 'S' series, I believe). Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:00:06 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] The Beagle, the Federation, and Warp Speed. << Also, even if there are more Federation explorers arrived at Mystara, wouldn't Beneker try to stop them from messing with Mystara? It seems that Beneker has grow quite fond of the natives, and dislike other people interfere with their growth too much. >> Who is Beneker ??? Write ten thousand times "Rheddrian Benekander"! :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:00:09 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions << I had a strange idea about the rescue of the Beagle.Maybe the federation came back during the great rain of fire. The rescue of the Beagle, in that period would be praticly impossible... The change of axis of the planet will allow praticly no survivors... So the federation could considere Mystara and is solar system a risky place and don't go there anymore (except from some strange alien activity noticed in the Joshuan Almanac who could be some rogues...) >> Yeah, and probably they tried first to correct the problem. Sounds more like the ever-losing Defiant than the victorious Enterprise. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:50:19 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Sphere of Time or Dimension of Time? Michael Southon asked: <<2) Cannot Time be both a Spere and a dimension?>> Yes, it can and in fact it is. The Sphere of Time is an ideal concept or a way of relating oneself to the Multiverse (a "ring" of Immortals, so to speak), while the dimension of Time (aka Temporal Prime -see Chronomancer) is where the real essence of time flows (and this is a concrete albeit strange and nearly impossible to reach place). If u wanna to know more about Temporal Prime, buy Chronomancer: it deals with time travel, time creatures, time lords (Doctor Who's inheritors..) and time magics. DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:47:38 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Federation Michael Southon wrote: << 2) Is the Federation a universe (ie Prime Plane only) or plane-spanning civilisation?>> First of all we must clarify a point: the Beagle never arrived on Mystara volountarily. The adventure modules and WotI shed some light on this point when they say that the Beagle's technology reacted awry with Mystara's magic and caused the ship to loose power and crash. The same fact that nobody went to search for the Beagle in more than four thousands years testifies that probably the Beagle didn't really choose its route but found itself stuck in this part of the Universe. So, canon (WotI) says that the Federation exists in another dimension (or if u don't like the word just substitute it with "alternate universe", which must not be confused with "alternate reality"), and since nobody came to retrieve the Beagle, we can hypothesize the Beagle just was caught up in a rift of timespace (maybe caused by its experimental engine or other gear on board to be tested, or simply an existing rift in the continuum which the Beagle unknowingly stepped into) that transported it to Mystara. The Federation IMHO has not the power (technology) to cross dimensions (alternate universes), and may not even have the technology to cross planes of its universe of existence (after all, relying only on technology they could ignore the existence of other planes of existence which are not scientifically explained). So it is basically a universe spanning civilization very similar to Star Trek's UFP. Another idea could be that the Federation never searched for the Beagle because (as Andrew suggested) it collapsed after the Beagle's departure. Maybe it was indeed located in the hub of the Galaxy and the Beagle (even traveling at spelljamming speed -100 millions of miles per day) had to travel for a lot of time before arriving to Mystaraspace (after all the existence of the chambers of "stasis" inside the Beagle and the fact the crew members were sleeping in them when it crashed suggests that they expected a long trip). In that lapse of time (years? Decades?) the federation somehow collapsed and so nobody cared about the Beagle's fate anymore. Another idea involves again timetravel: the rift was not a dimensional but a temporal rift, so that the Federation exists somewhere else in the Prime but it hasn't sent anyone to retrieve the Beagle cause the incident hasn't happened yet on their homeworld! The Beagle could very well be coming from Mystara's own future!! Last thing to say is a clarification of my distinction between "alternate universe" (or dimension) and "alternate reality" or "timeframe". The concept of alternate universe has been masterfully explained by Andre Martins and i quote his definition here for the sake of clarity: " Imagine you are a being with only 2 spatial dimensions, living in a sheet of paper. That sheet of paper would be what people usually calls a plane. Now imagine your sheet is not alone, but is in a book, with many other sheet-planes next to it. As you live only in your sheet, you wil never know about it, but there might be ways to change sheets, so that you'd go to other planes. What WotI cals a dimension, would be the whole book. Other dimensions would be other books, with many sheet-planes inside it." Ok this fits perfectly with the concept of alternate universe. Now regarding alternate timeframe or reality, just imagine a scribe that copies the the text of a book (universe) and either volountarily or involountarily alters its contents in some parts: each time it alters its text he creates a completely different text even though it still deals with the same topic. Or easier: different universes (dimensions) are books that talk about different subjects, while different timeframes are books that deal with different versions of the same subject. So for each book we'll have different versions of it (though i don't believe infinite versions) to the point that nobody will be able to tell which one is the original one anymore. PS: if Mystarans aren't alone in the Prime it is likely the Immortals know it and have established other followers in other cultures living on other planets (not doing it would be fool!): this happens with gods in Spelljammer at least. DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:46:07 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Universe & Alien Cultures Michael Southon asked: <<1) is Mystara the only planet on this plane, or is there a whole universe?>> Mystara exists in the Prime Plane, which is basically the equivalent of our RW Universe, with many other galaxies, and as such other solar systems & other races. Just in case, this is the layout of Mystaraspace according to the Old Immortal Set (and WotI didn't change anything about it since it didn't deal with it): Real Name (Mystaran proposed one) Sun (Ixion)¹ Mercury (Alphatia) Venus (Valerias) Earth (Mystara) Mars (Tarastia) Damocles (Asterius)² Asteroid Belt (Tears of Asterius) Jupiter (Vanya) Saturn (Khoronus) Uranus (Ordana) Neptune (Protius) Pluto (Alphaks) Charon (Thanatos) Note 1: The core of the sun is formed by a large, hollow sphere, whose walls are pure black. Within it, a Fire Elemental Ruler (80 HD, 600 hp) rules over all the creature that can be found in the sun (which looks like the the Elemental Plane of Fire). See M4 for details. Note 2: Damocles is destined to explode after 1,000 AC (see old immortal set). Its fragments form the Asteroid belt between "Jupiter" and "Mars", while the largest two pieces shoot off and become "Mercury" and "Pluto". Other pieces become the gas giants' retrograde moons. Damocles is a flatworld (semisphere) with a thriving civilization living on it. Neither Mystarans nor Damoclites know of each other, though. There have been many discussions about other alien races, and in Joshuan Almanac there is even an article about the Circular Crop Cuttings phenomenon that stresses the ignorance of Mystarans about the existence of otherwordly civilizations. The strange fact seems to be that while most mages that plane-travel or know the existence of other Planes inhabited by other creatures have never thought about the possibility of other cultures living in the same Prime Plane where they live, only on other planets! Clearly it is for them easier to explore other planes of existence than other planets in the same plane: strange perverse effects of magic, i shall say. Anyway, we do know of at least other 3 alien cultures in the Prime: 1) the Damoclites that live(d) on Damocles (Asterius). They won't last much however, and hereafter i list some ideas about why and when they could disappear: Scenario 1 by Daniel Boese Damocles was somehow held together magically - perhaps its civilization was remnants of the mostly-unknown-on-Mystara "Earth" and "Water" groups from Old Alphatia. One day, the planet ran into a large sargasso (no-magic areas of Mystaraspace), which cancelled the magics holding the planet together, resulting in its utter destruction. If this is true, then the asteroid that crashed on Glantri and formed the Great Crater could have been a large chunk of Damocles, perhaps holding inside itself several new species of monsters and plants. Scenario 2 by DM Damocles boasted a high magic culture similar to that of Mystara and revered even the same immortals. However, during WotI it got caught up in a magical side effect of the Doomsady Device activation that spread all over Mystaraspace and this caused its highly magical core (which gave Damoclites incredible superpowers and magic capacities that exceeded those of Mystarans, as long as they lived on Damocles) to overload: it then exploded and created the two large asteroids that have now become Mercury and Pluto. Or maybe it was a Megalith and the combination of the surge of power from the Doomsday Device, the apparition of the Old One on the Prime and the Week of No Magic made it go crazy and ultimately it committed suicide (a bit silly, but who knows how the mind of a megalith works under stress?) 2) the pyrithians who lived in the Pyrithian Archipelago in some other part of the Galaxy. The Emerondians are descendants of the pyrithian culture (survivors from the destruction of their planet IIRC), but they're fairly dissimilar to their ancestors. If i may advance a strange hypothesis, the Pyrithians could be the survivors of Damocles' doom. Haldemar first encountered them on Davania back in the X century and they had already been living there for some time. However we normally assume Damocles didn't explode prior to AC 1000, so that's my theory: when they escaped they used magical skyships that got caught in a strange time rift phenomenon. Instead of traveling to another part of the galaxy, the energy released by their planet's doom caused them to travel to another part of time continuum and landing on Mystara (which was near to Damocles after all) in its past (maybe during the BC era?). This wouldn't create a temporal paradox or anomaly, since the first settlers will be long dead when they will see the light on their homeplanet in the future (prior the destruction) and so the lifelines won't be doubled (see Chronomancer supplement). More: they will think their planet is gone forever and will never suspect that one of the planets they see each night in the sky is their homeland. So they won't make any attempt to warn their fellows of the future catastrophe: they will not be able to change the course of the events, which will replicate forever and ever.. Alternatively you can have the Pyrithians simply be one of the faraway culture that visited Mystara long ago, maybe altering some of the species' evolution with their tampering and experiments, and later escaped their planet because of a long forgotten menace from another part of the space (or time) and fled to Mystara. 3) the inhabitants of Patera, which can be divided into rakastas (from official sources, see Voyages of the Princess Ark), pachidermions and rakshasas (from unofficial speculations inside the list). For more detail on these cultures, see Andrew Theisen's Patera Files in my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/dungeon/2967/mystsjr.html I think it's all for now. Next time, question number 2! DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:49:42 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Spheres Michael Southon asked: <<1) What is a Sphere? As I understood it, it is merely a general description of a field of study that Immortals devote thier time to.>> This issue already appeared in this same period of last year and it was incorporated in the debate about the actual power/fate of the Nucleus of the Spheres. If you are interested there's an article about it with all the conclusions we reached together with Bruce Heard in my site at this URL: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/nucleus.html However for the sake of clarity i'll quote below the definition that Haavard Roenne Faanes (hi Haavard!) gave regarding Spheres (since i like it!): "I see the Spheres of Power much like the Force in Star Wars. As Obi Wan Kenobi would have said it: "The Spheres of Power is what gives an Immortal his powers. It surrounds us, penetrates us, binds the Multiverse together." In the Multiverse of Mystara, however there are five such forces, not only one. Also not all the spheres are as abstract as the Force. The sphere of Matter appears only in its manifestation; rock, earth etc... The spheres are the building blocks of reality. They are present at all planes, because everything is the Spheres. Some places are stronger with some spheres. There are i.e. planes of Energy. Also, one can argue that Mountainious areas are stronger with matter. Creatures are also made up from Spheres. As the Prime material plane is a plane of balance between the spheres, humans and animals are creatures with no specific alegiance to one sphere. Elves and magical monsters are aligned with energy, Dwarves with Matter. Immortals are masters of the spheres, but can only belong to one sphere at a time. That means they can only drain power from one sphere. It would be a fair assumption IMHO that the Old Ones are masters of all the spheres and can drain power from all of them. If their power does not come from a greater source. Perhaps the Old Ones are sources of power like the Spheres themselves.." So as u can see the Sphere is an ideal concept or even a "bias" toward a certain field of study, a way of perceiving and studying the Multiverse that split the Immortals into different factions. DM Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:48:28 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thunder Rift & AD&D Multiverse Michael Southon asked: << 3) Is thunder-rift another plane or another planet? (ditto with forgotten realm and every other world, for that matter)>> Thunder Rift is a "pocket dimension" (could also be described as a demiplane if such a concept existed in D&D), or a small alternate universe (in the sense that it comprises only a small valley in the original design, but could have been developed further by the DM) where a similar setting to Mystara awaits the PCs. It has however many ties with Mystara, above all the presence of some typical Mystara creatures (such as rakastas) and powers. Nothing more than a starting campaign for beginners. Regarding AD&D worlds (Toril, Oerth, Krynn, Athas), there are two theories: a) they exist on a different dimension (universe), maybe the Dimension of Myth, since there is a Crystal Sphere in Spelljammer that resembles the earth with its many cultures in all its gold eras (much like the one that exists in the Dimension of Myth and where the immortals HAVE followers, thus proving that they CAN travel between dimensions but have chosen not to do so extensively probably not to have troubles with other deities of other dimensions -this happens IMC). b) They exist in the same dimension but in other parts of the galaxy (or even in another part of the universe, where solar systems are enclosed in crystal spheres and surrounded by the Phlogiston), like the Gamma Quadrant in ST:Voyager. The difference is that if you choose the first option, you'll have two different types of ultimate powers (gods and immortals), two different types of Multiverse (Planescape and WotI planar geography), two different types of physical-magical sets of laws (Spelljammer and Champions of Mystara) and also different types of creatures, whereas the second option forces you to choose either one or the other (we're not talking about rules systems, AD&D vs OD&D, but of campaign issues). PS: i won't answer question number 4 since i don't have the basis to do it and regarding question 5 i've already answered it in second part of my answer to question 2 (that's to say i agree with what has been said so far). I only wanted to stress one more thing: remember that we're talking about a FANTASY world, so we're not obliged to stick to RW physics. So if somebody else reasons using fantasy physics, do not flame: it's just RW physics doesn't fit that well into Mystara (and Blackmoor proved it ;)).. Still, i think those of you who want to make it more similar to RW have all the rights to do it and to argument in favour of it: i won't anyway. DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:05:49 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions (note to Ben and Rhonda who are not regular list people ... scroll down to find sections that may be of interest to you) On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Peter Balazs wrote: >1.) There are the philosophical-theological problems. How can sombeody decide, if he really lives on earth at this time, etc.. and is not just imagining everything (solipsism). Or how do you know that the laws you find for physics (or any other science) truly have something to do with reality, and not the reality (or god or somebody) adapts to match this laws, you´ve found (because they are sound, beautiful, holy, or anything else). And so on, and so on,..... >As a natural scientist you normally ignore such thoughts, because one of your axioms is that there is something like reality! I agree. Only, as far as philosophy goes, I tend to be partial toWittgenstein: "reality is whatever won't go away". In other words, we can never be sure of anything, as you say, but we still think that we are sure, inasmuch as we act on our practical beliefs. Of course, this is just as true of metaphysical beliefs as it is of beliefs in God ... Wittgenstein says it is no use arguing whether physics or religion has it right, the important thing is to learn to understand the internal logic of both. So *especially* in a fantasy universe, where we *know* (as much as it is possible to know anything) that the supernatural exists, the trick is to figure out whether there is some underlying logic to our perception of the world ... anybody out there a fan of structuralist anthropology (Levi-Strauss etc.)? >2.) But on a more practical level: You will NEVER know, if a theory truly is right, if it is true. Because you can never prove a physical theory, you can only disprove it. (Popper; Induction-Deduction) So a theory in Physcis is excepted, when many tries to disprove it, have failed, then it is called a "good" theory. Practically it is some kind of democratic (or better consentic) decision, if nobody (meaning no known scientist) tries to argue against the theory or tires to disprove it (seriously), it is excepted. But as you can see, this is not always right. For example the laws of newton were excepted for two centuries, but then they were disproved (relativity & quantum physics) Also correct, except that no one has yet convincingly dismissed with the Duhem-Quine hypothesis, which says (contra Popper) that it is also never possible to disprove any theorem, because theories depend upon the meanings of the terms used to formulate them, whose meanings can never be ultimately pinned down because they always depend upon the meanings of other words used to phrase any necessary postulates or preceding terms. Thus, because language is never "definite", science never is either, and theorems are only relative to the way they are understood and applied. By the way theories are "accepted", not "excepted". >>hmm. this is interesting. what if the continued undead existence of >>certain persons is a manifestation in this world of a disjuncture in their probabilistic existence in a parallel dimension ... i.e. their quantum soul is out of phase. ? whaddaya think? >Nice!! But the problem is that that will have no effect on play! maybe not. but if we can come up with wacky sounding pseudo-scientific explanations for various phenomena, we can possibly integrate these into a model which will point us towards new phenomena we hadn't previously noticed... plus which it gives mad-scientist type mages something to rant about and increase their role-playing XP (given an understanding DM). and anyway if undead really are a result of phase disjunction, that means mages who specialize in dimensional spells may possibly find ways of approximating clerical power over the undead, etc. ... it also means necromancers would have to study quantum theory in some form, etc. on a related note, i remember reading this wacky discover magazine article about bees being able to sense quantum states and mimicking electron fluctuation patterns in their "direction dances", thus indicating that their small brains perhaps relied directly on quanta and were able to sense these in a way the neuron-based brains of humans could not. now if we apply this to mystara ... how about a school of wizards who are constantly summoning and communing with bees in order to understand alternate dimensions or magical effects? wouldn't that make for a really weird and aesthetically disturbing type of magic? My younger brother is for some reason enamored of a strange deity called Bee-Zor. I wonder if this is in some way related. >>>Thank God, you can´t! It wozuld be great to timetravel, but non-causal physics must be a pain-in-the-*ss! (If it can be formulated probably!) >>good thing we're working with a fantasy world so we don't have to have all the decimal places figured out to do what we came here for. >But time travel is a problem also for the logic of the gaming world! So it is a problem for the DM! the DM doesn't have to have ALL of the logic worked out in order to run things, just enough to come up with cool ideas. I consider Mystaran physics pretty hopelessly messy, but that doesn't mean i don't like theorizing about it. By the way what's the deal with the exclamation points! They're kind of distracting! (all irony intended!) >>okay fine, but my point is that when you are thus transformed, you will become completely unable to perceive objects in the normal world as such ... you won't see them as flat or two-dimensional, because you won't see them at all. What you would see would be an image formed out of an infinite number of infinitely thin slivers of conventional reality which exist in incremental parallel to one another in the fourth dimension. That is, this is what you would see if light were still coming to you along either the third or the second dimension ... but if light can travel through the fourth dimension (an interesting question) then this complicates things even more. >No, why? >A picture is two-dimensional, right? But if you look at it, you will see something, don´t you? Or am I missing something? but you can't look at it if you are in the same two dimensional plane with it ... you have to stand some distance away. light bouncing off the two-dimensional surface moves through the third dimension and strikes the two dimensional surface of each of your two eyes (I am assuming you have two, my apologies if this is not the case), then is converted into electrical impulses which reach your brain and are manipulated so that, out of the difference between the two eye-images, a three dimensional visual model is constructed, within which exists the two-dimensional model of the picture, upon which your mind can particularly focus. Now, my question is, IF your perception were "shifted over" one dimension, so that you could physically perceive time as a dimension, wouldn't that mean that one of the three normal dimensions would have to serve as a new kind of time (so that you would "remember" things that are in front of you, even as you are constantly seeing a new image ... kind of like walking backwards across a room, only not), whereas you would be able to "see" all of a given time sequence as a linear expanse (presuming, as I've said, that light, or some equivalent particle, is able to "bounce off time" and move across some other dimension to be perceived by you). This kind of visual understanding makes my head hurt, and since I suspect that light does not move in all dimensions precisely, I would guess that time travel or astral "sight" would involve some radically different perceptual framework ... hey, why not smell? (I like smell). >>1) I forgot to mention (took for granted) that with my reference to >>subjective time variations, you can only travel to the future! At least you travel faster. I think that the AD&D rule about aging after casting some spells reflects this: Haste (it does not give ultra-speed, it changes pace in your subjective timeline, so that you see everybody move slower; if it were just ultra-speed, you would lose accuracy and have attack penalties, no bonuses, for instance; you don´t see yourself acting faster). >That´s a nice idea! okay, except all our canon material indicates it's possible to travel back in time. Plus which what respectable high fantasy campaign doesn't include time travel? If we don't have the ability to go back in time people from other campaign worlds will make fun of us (more than they already do). If I don't get to travel back in time, I'll cry. Right here in the supermarket. >>2) I like the idea of Matt about seeing infinite Mystaras, each slightly different from the other. >I don´t like it! >Because IMO if somebody believs in it, it will lead to a very solipsistic, very evil point of view, anything that matters will be you! Because where´s the point in helping somebody, where´s the point in not killing anybody, in protecting the world, in anything except making yourself mor comfortable, as every possible thing will happen to the others, and why should Klaus from this universe, who dies because you didn´t help him, be any more important than the same Klaus from another universe, who will not die. extremely insightful point. You will notice that the characters in the Zelazny series are kind of like this ... as are many "wizard" types in various fantasy worlds ... being able to visit other realities would tend to make this one seem less important, and thus induce antisocial tendencies. Unless, of course, one's ability to do this was never complete, and other people besides oneself also had this power ... or even greater powers. Now we are getting into the territory of religious magic ... If I can experience any universe I want within the will of God, then I need to learn to respect that will or I will constantly hurt myself with my wish to escape from the problems of any given reality. This was someone else's point about wish spells ... when you start to really think about it, wishing for things is a damn dangerous business ... there is SOME sort of intelligent being, like a deity or dungeonmaster, behind the granting, and you will NEVER be able to perfectly describe the entirety of the universe you want to live in in such a way that God or whoever is forced to grant to you your desired reality with no drawbacks or problems. I saw an excellent episode of the Simpson's on this subject last night at my friend Rhonda's house. In it, Homer gets to go back in time to the age of dinosaurs (he figures out how to make his toaster into a time machine), but he remembers that on his wedding night the advice his father gave him was a variation on the famous "butterfly principle" - don't touch anything because you'll change the future in unpredictable ways. Of course, Homer swats a mosquito and returns to a radically different future in which Flanders is undisputed ruler of the universe ... following this, Homer returns over and over again to the Jurassic and squashes various different critters, kills all the dinosaurs by sneezing on them, etc., and repeatedly goes "back to the future" only to find that the world is different in some strange way ... giant people, maggie as an ax-murderer, no donuts, etc. - then he finally makes it back to one where everything is normal except his family have frog-like 2-foot long tongues, and says "close enough" and the episode ends. This is quite a bit like a Star Trek Voyager episode in which this guy was flying a time ship through the probabilistic multiverse, trying to "restore" his own civilization which he had (in his own subjective time) inadvertently destroyed in the process of eliminating its enemies. The whole thing was fascinating because (unlike Homer Simpson) this guy was extremely scientifically sophisticated and was trying to mathematically master the universe itself, to give himself back what he had lost while eliminating all difficulties and dangers ... it was really tragic, actually. An interesting Mystara campaign could involve some demi-immortal being, less wise than Khoronus/Chronos, who attempts to tamper with the world through utterly powerful time-magic, only to discover in the end that he has through his own limitedness destroyed everything he truly cared about. The ultimate Greek tragedy, if you will ... total hubris with infinite power still cannot foresee its own self-wrought doom. I think the Oards/Borg fit into this nicely too ... I've always had this theory about Star Trek (which I will summarize briefly): The first humanoid race in the galaxy, the ones who created the time portals from City on the Edge of Forever, were much like humans, seeking knowledge of and mastery over their universe through constantly increasing technology and ignoring the effects of technology on them until they were overtaken by their own computers and became the Borg. Some of them, realizing what was happening and horrified by the prospect, built an enormous weapon to devour all of the planets "infected" by technology (and also "seeded" the universe with new genetic material which would recreate living beings like themselves ... ultimately producing the variety of humanoid races in the galaxy, as discovered by Picard in a ST:TNG episode) ... this weapon was the "doomsday machine" seen on ST:TOS. It failed in its task, thus leaving the borg roaming other parts of the universe assimilating the species which grew from their genetic seeds. My dark horror take on Star Trek is that all humanoids are ultimately doomed to assimilation, and the one sure means to liberty is self-destruction, which Q manipulated Picard into causing in ST:TNG's last episode, only Picard figured it out and stopped it. The irony there is supposed to be that Picard has almost inadvertently wrought the destruction of the human race ... whereas I like to make it even more twisted by saying that in fixing his mistake, Picard has brought about the ultimate enslavement of the universe. Of course, all this stuff rests on very interesting tensions between life and freedom, the individual and the group, etc. which are sort of the foundation of modern science-horror ... but since these themes work themselves out in sci-fi, wouldn't we expect them to show up in our fantasy worlds too? I've kind of strayed really far from the original point of my rant ... which had to do with magic, time travel, and nature of the universe. If the Borg represent some ultimate fear of the future, which is related to our desire for control and predictability and its tension with our desire for freedom and love, then we can use these themes in any time travel/probability magic campaign. There are other themes that recur too ... like insanity (Azathoth, Arik of the One Hundred Eyes, etc.) and rebirth (Osiris, Christ, Pink Floyd's The Wall, etc.) ... I think a really philosophical magic system will reflect these. >>3) This takes us to seeing magic as a tampering (as Matt suggested) on the laws of probability: >What´s "eldritch system"? "eldritch" is my second-favorite Lovecraftian cliche word, after "rugose". It means mysterious, more or less. It kind of implies ancientness, too, I think. >But nice thought! I will think about it, and maybe comment it somewhen in the future! >>Let's just say that a view of magic which I find plausible for a fantasy universe would ultimately rest upon the view that Andres has presented, and it would not matter what the "normal" physical laws were ... all that would matter would be the number of individuals who had a complex understanding of the nature of parallel realities and the ability to shift between planes along a dimensional axis (which would appear to be nothing other than casting spells in one ordinary plane) ... >1.) If you accept magic as changing the plane, I would think it would the more difficult the more physical laws you disregard and the more you change it. Because I would think that the "parrallel" universes are the similar the nearer they are. So if you chnage to a universe, where you can fly, it is farther away than a universe, where your food tastes better (cantrip, for example). sounds eminently reasonable. >2.) It just will be the same, if you don´t accept "parallel" universes (like me), and magic tempers with the dimension of probability. The more you chaqnge the probability the more magic you need. the reason i phrase this is terms of "parallel" universes is because I like the idea that there are unseen effects to tampering with probability ... take away one part of the world, you affect everything else, often irreparably. there was actually an episode of the old D&D cartoon in which Dungeon Master explained this to the naive teenage dimension-hoppers. It's basically just the idea of Karma rephrased so that it applies specifically to spellcasters. If you don't want to call it parallel universes, fine, but the same principle ought to hold in some fashion ... changing the world around you has consequences, and if you don't know what you are doing you can get yourself into trouble. i right now am getting myself into trouble by not getting ready for the presentation i have to give today on neoclassical economics, so i am going to stop now. m@2 to tune of jingle bells (shamelessly stolen from somebody else on this list): "Azathoth, Azathoth, Azathoth the King Center of the Universe Insanity he brings, hey!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #15 ******************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:12:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #16 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Wednesday, January 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 016 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Federation Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Spheres [MYSTARA] - My point in this physics (and meta-) debate Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions [MYSTARA] - Korrigans? Re: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Korrigans? Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Re: [MYSTARA] - Nonhumans of Eastern Karameikos [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Welcome to the Jungle... [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Economy and XP [MYSTARA] - House of Ritterburg [MYSTARA] - Nithia Re: [MYSTARA] - Nonhumans of Eastern Karameikos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:03:23 GMT From: mar0173@ibm.net Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Federation At 19:47 20/01/98 +0100, DM wrote: >Last thing to say is a clarification of my distinction between "alternate universe" (or dimension) and "alternate reality" or "timeframe". The concept of alternate universe has been masterfully explained by Andre Martins and i quote his definition here for the sake of clarity: Thanks :) Btw, you don't have to include the Martins. I use to make it clear who I am, as we do have also an Andrew and an Andres in the list, but I found it odd to read it. Anyway, do as you like. As long as nobody starting calling me names, of course. Andre (Martins) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:03:15 GMT From: mar0173@ibm.net Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Spheres At 19:49 20/01/98 +0100, DM wrote: >Immortals are masters of the spheres, but can only belong to one sphere at a time. That means they can only drain power from one sphere. It would be a fair assumption IMHO that the Old Ones are masters of all the spheres and can drain power from all of them. If their power does not come from a greater source. Perhaps the Old Ones are sources of power like the Spheres themselves.." Great. That way, you can explain better my idea about Thanatos and vanya that I posted a couple of days ago. Thanatos have guessed that much and is willing to become master of all Spheres. Andre Martins *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:59:44 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: [MYSTARA] - My point in this physics (and meta-) debate When taking part in this discussion about Physics in Mystara (especially magic), I thought that we should have two aims in mind: 1) quite practical for gaming: magic must be surprising to the PCsand controlled by the DM at the same time. We can base this "control" on Earth Physics theories, just as we base Mystaran cultures on Earthen ones. For instance, IMC, with a couple of PC mages above 18th level, you have two options to keep the game challenging: mega-monsters (quite boring, unless Godzilla is your ideal of a villain) or some quirks that both force players to devise intelligent answers (not just rolling dice) and give a "flavour" to the plot. Talking about topics which have crawled into the list: A type of "undead" not based on raised dead bodies, but on altering probabilities (a fantasy interpretation of the cat paradox), could be a nice surprise for a 16th level cleric who can destroy most humble undead without even rolling dice! A bad guy who is dead and living at the same time (not undead) could perhaps only be harmed by wounding and HEALING him at the same time (just an idea...). If we take teleportation to be a "transformation" into a kind of energy (with your atoms later reshaped thanks to the magic process), there will be no more merry assault by PCs into enemy citadels! A clever NPC mage can use Walls of Force (a kind of electromagnetic field ;-)?) to make PCs rebound or even trap them! These fantasy-Physics laws, which could be a lax blend of Aristotle, Newton, Quantum and Relativity, just as Mystara is a mix of Roman Empire, Renaissance, Feudal Europe and Conquistador-America (amongst many others), are there to make magic feel REAL, something PCs have to learn from experience, not just a bunch of dice, areas of effect and saving throws. 2) As Matt already pointed, putting science and philosophy into a campaign make it have more feel and scope. We can pit a party against an Evil Immortal of Entropy who wants to destroy everything. Query: why? Answer: because he is an Immortal of Entropy! Quite poor IMO. Giving Immortals and very powerful NPCs, who, as nearly omnipotent, are prone to extremes, a philosophical backround is more challenging for all. PCs may come to share part of their ideals, although they fight their misguided actions on the world. They may be shocked by morals too alien to beings of flesh and blood... Take a campaign based on an Immortal of Matter who looks for stabilty and (fashion topic) starts cloning beings without desires or ambitions, and, consequently, no grief or insatisfaction (think of Brave New World); or about a great prophet who sees a terrible cataclism in the future and starts using chronomancy to prevent it, only to find out that his actions taken to avoid it become the causes of the great disaster (the problem of fate from MacBeth taken to the extremes...). This backgrounds in which players have to wonder which is the right option (if there is a completely right or completely bad one), more than just finding out the name of the guy they have to smite down, will make any world worth-remembering. Andrés Piquer Otero *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:39:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >As I remember it, the Warp measurement system is NOT linear, it is exponential ... I don't remember the exact curvature of the scale, but a ship travelling at warp 9 is able to traverse hundreds of light years in just days ... plus which there is the presence of wormholes as potential shortcuts. This may sound a bit anal of me, but I just checked the Starfleet Tech Guide last night (relax, it's my brother's. Really.) Warp 9 is 1516 times the speed of light, and can be sustained for only a very short period of time (like, 12 hours or something). According to DA3, the Federation is 1/3 of a galaxy away from Mystara. Presuming the 100,000 LY distance of the galaxy posited by the Immortal DM's book, that means Mystara is something on the order of 50-75,000 LY from the Federation (50 presuming they're in the same galaxy; 75 otherwise). Given that, at Warp 5, the Federation could reach Mystara in around 300 years or so. Is this plausible? I don't think it entirely is. If you figure in that they still have to do things like, refuel, fix the ship, etc. I don't think it entirely unlikely that it would take far, far longer than that to reach Mystara, especially given that traveling at Warp 5 (normal speed) will burn up fuel more quickly than at lower Warp speeds. And going faster than 5 is a sure way to burn up fuel quickly. Anyway, just some thoughts on the issue. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:11:25 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Korrigans? Here's a thought that occurred to me last night while working on an Immortals project, that I thought I'd run past you guys and girls. The original Master DM's guide describes the Korrigans as a group of nine elves, friends in life, who, upon achieving Immortality, renewed their friendship and chose the Korrigan as their symbol. The thought is this: What if the Korrigans aren't a sort of "group" Immortal, as we have all assumed (along the lines of the Twelve Watchers), but are rather a clique, or a pantheon of existing Immortals? Ie, they are elvish Immortals who, collectively, have chosen the Korrigan to symbolize their pantheon (a pantheon not unlike, say, the Northern Reaches pantheon), but individually are all different? Now, presumably all 9 are of the Sphere of Energy, as the artifact created jointly by them is an Energy artifact. And we already have two elvish Immortals of the Sphere of Energy- Ilsundal and Mealiden- who are known to be close friends (both in mortal and immortal lives). So perhaps Ilsundal and Mealiden are two of the 9 Korrigans? Eiryndul could be one, possibly, except that he is 1) not friendly to Ilsundal or Mealiden, and 2) didn't follow the Path of the Paragon to the Sphere of Energy (he's Thought). Similarly, Calitha Starbrow, a first generation elf would seemingly be disqualified, having not likely known the other elves before her ascent to Immortality (and not being of the Energy sphere). Which still leaves 7 Korrigans. Presumably the creator of the Elvenstar (the Wendarian artifact) is one. Possibly the founder of the Ee'aar (whatever her name was) could be one as well. Perhaps Enoreth (from the Shrine of Enoreth in Wendar, module X11) could be one as well? Anyway, what do you all think? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:47:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Mischa E Gelman wrote: >All this recent discussion of Blackmoor got me thinking..what about gazetteer-type projects for the Blackmoor societies? Mr. Arneson left a lot of room to work with and some areas (Egg of the Coot,Mainland Thonia,Duchy of the Peaks,Afridhi lands) just beg to be put into more detail. Well, to me at least. Not sure how the rest of you view this but just wanted to toss out the idea in case anyone has the time,ideas,desire and will to create a GAZ for some Blackmoor culture. -Mischa Guess I'll have to post my stuff up soon. I've done some preliminary writeups (PWA style) for many of the Blackmoorian dominions, as given in the DA series. I've been meaning to post it on my web page, but I never seem to find the time... - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:46:45 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Eric wrote: >I had a strange idea about the rescue of the Beagle.Maybe the federation came back during the great rain of fire. The rescue of the Beagle, in that period would be praticly impossible... The change of axis of the planet will allow praticly no survivors... So the federation could considere Mystara and is solar system a risky place and don't go there anymore (except from some strange alien activity noticed in the Joshuan Almanac who could be some rogues...) Or, to go along with this theory, tie in with Mystaros' version of Blackmoor, and the Deathstalker series of books by Simon Green that I've been reading lately- maybe the Great Rain of Fire was actually caused by the Federation, who scoured the planet clean from outer space because the Mystarans were progressing at too fast a pace, and their technomantic practices were growing out of their control. The Federation, which would have made contact with them by that point in time (due to the Blackmoorians developing space technology), decided they had to remove all traces of technology from the planet, in order to spare others in the galaxy. The Immortals, sometimes credited with starting the GRoF, are, in a way, responsible, as they allowed the Federation to scour Mystara clean. Or clean enough, as there are still traces here and there of Blackmoor tech, etc. BTW, on another note, if anyone else has read the Deathstalker series, doesn't the squabbling/infighting/jockeying for position/etc among the Families of the Empire seem suitably appropriate for an Alphatian-type of atmosphere? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:10:51 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Korrigans? >Which still leaves 7 Korrigans. Presumably the creator of the Elvenstar (the Wendarian artifact) is one. Possibly the founder of the Ee'aar (whatever her name was) could be one as well. Perhaps Enoreth (from the Shrine of Enoreth in Wendar, module X11) could be one as well? Wow, you have been really thinking about this! I think it is a cool idea. A whole campaign could revolve around the revelation of who the first Korrigans are and then the names of the unknown 7. Perhaps a quest to reunite the Korrigans or something... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:36:48 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: a bunch of shit thinking he knew what he was talking about, and got slammed into place by Cthulhudrew with a whole lotta facts to back him up: techie talk snippets: >from the Federation (50 presuming they're in the same galaxy; 75 otherwise). Given that, at Warp 5, the Federation could reach Mystara in around 300 years or so. >(I don't) think it entirely unlikely that it would take far, far longer than that> to reach Mystara, especially given that traveling at Warp 5 (normal > speed) will burn up fuel more quickly than at lower Warp speeds. And >going faster than 5 is a sure way to burn up fuel quickly. sounds quite sensible. so Mystara is NOT in normal range of the federation, the beagle came there by wormhole ... or did it drift a long ways after its crew was put into suspended animation? wasnt it a city-ship designed for LONG voyages? what if the crew overshot their target destination and the ship failed to wake them up, so the Federation might not even still EXIST anymore ... no need to come to a particular consensus on this, unless we are actually planning a federation visit ... so i'm just making idle conversation. thanks for the accurate info on trek physics. m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:41:09 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions >Or, to go along with this theory, tie in with Mystaros' version of Blackmoor, and the Deathstalker series of books by Simon Green that I've been reading lately- maybe the Great Rain of Fire was actually caused by the Federation, who scoured the planet clean from outer space because the Mystarans were progressing at too fast a pace, and their technomantic practices were growing out of their control. The Federation, which would have made contact with them by that point in time (due to the Blackmoorians developing space technology), decided they had to remove all traces of technology from the planet, in order to spare others in the galaxy. The Immortals, sometimes credited with starting the GRoF, are, in a way, responsible, as they allowed the Federation to scour Mystara clean. or, following my earlier suggestion about shifting empires in federation space, it could be that it was some other group who obliterated blackmoor... say the Romulans or the Cardassians. This would allow us to keep our goody-goody image of the federation while still allowing us to use Mystara stuff. maybe some race even takes slaves from Mystara? they could just beam them up and sell them somewhere else .. it would look to mystarans like the person just got zapped by a disintegrate spell .. maybe this is how this works! who knows. i don't really tend to like reducing ALL magic to "mystified science", but then again why not? just a preference. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:49:23 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Nonhumans of Eastern Karameikos who is the Queen you mention from Queen's Harvest? Is that Princess Argenta of Haven made a full Queen, or is it the Queen of Karameikos (meaning presumably Stefan's daughter grown up)? Is there more information on Karameikos from that module that would be useful for those running campaigns in the area? m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 03:03:00 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Welcome to the Jungle... Ah, another mailing list, another fifty e-mails a day... Hello, everyone, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Glen Sprigg, and I am a long-time D&D/Mystara fan. (Ooh, big surprise; why else would he be here?) I hope to be able to contribute something useful, while enjoying the tremendous benefits of hearing the ideas of dozens (hundreds?) of fellow Mystarans. I suppose I should begin with a small contribution... ******************************************* THE SHIELD OF THE WINDS A Lesser Artifact of the Sphere of Thought Created by Diulanna (OD&D rules from WotI) The Shield of the Winds was one of the first artifacts created by Diulanna, shortly after she ascended to Immortality. It was first used on Mystara by the Milenian hero Perias who used its power to defeat a greater medusa, among many other heroic quests. When the hero died, the Shield was passed to his successor, who was killed in battle with a fierce minotaur. The Shield was lost for a long time, but eventually was unearthed by a band of giants who had moved into the area where the Milenians had once lived. The giants, in conflict with Hinterland barbarians, finally offered the shield as part of a peace offering, never knowing its true value. The Hinterlanders accepted the shield, and one of their priests was informed in a dream of the Shield's true value. He told his tribal leaders, who then began arguing over who should carry the wondrous item. The squabble became quite spirited, and several fatalities resulted. Then, a young Hinterlander stole the shield and fled, hoping to stop the fighting by removing the cause. He disappeared into unknown parts, and was never heard from again. Characteristics: Shield +4 (20 PP) Powers: Fly (25 PP) Predict Weather (10 PP) Gaseous Form (30 PP) Weather Control (80 PP) Invisibility (20 PP) Shield (10 PP) Reflection (15 PP) Totals: 210 PP Activation: Reflection, Predict Weather, Invisibility and Shield all work by mere concentration. To Fly, the wielder holds the shield in the air and calls the wind to carry him. Gaseous Form is activated by gripping the shield at the edges and holding it tightly against the body while praying to Diulanna. Weather Control requires holding the shield in both hands high in the air, praying to Diulanna, and commanding the spirits of air to produce the desired weather effect. Handicaps: The wielder of the Shield of the Winds becomes claustrophobic for as long as the Shield is possessed, and for 60 days following; the wielder must make a Wisdom check whenever he enters a cavern, and every four hours he remains in one. Failure means the wielder will immediately head for the surface, stopping only to defend himself or to rest. Once the surface is reached, the wielder will not attempt to re-enter the cavern for at least a day (Wisdom check required daily to enter a cavern). Note that houses and other civilized buildings are not considered caverns. In addition, the wielder suffers a -2 saving throw from earth-based attacks, including earth elementals and earthquake damage, as long as the shield is possessed. Penalties: Whenever Invisibility is invoked, there is a 10% chance that the wielder will assume Gaseous Form unwillingly; this penalty does drain the normal TP from the artifact (30 TP). When Weather Control is invoked, there is a 70% chance that the wielder will lose 1d6 points of Strength and Constitution due to the power invoked; this effect lasts as long as the Weather Control effect. Whenever the Reflection power is used, the character has a 10% chance of Fumbling and dropping the shield if it is struck by a spell of higher than 2nd level. The character requires two full rounds to recover the shield and properly wield it again. Every time the Shield blocks a spell, the chance for another Fumble increases 5% until it is dropped, at which time the chance is 10% again. ********************************** Right now, the Shield is the object of a quest, part of an NPC's Path to Immortality in the Sphere of Thought. However, who knows where it will turn up? That Hinterlander could have ended up anywhere, and so could the Shield... If anyone finds a use for this artifact, let me know! May your blades be ever-sharp! Glen Sprigg Barrie, Ontario *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:23:08 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Economy and XP Hello everyone, Since you already know that I'm crazy about Glantri, and I recently started attending a couple of accounting courses at my school, I'll start posting the statistics for Glantrian dominions. They will indicate the dominion population, income, and XP gained by the ruler. I used the rules Bruce posted several years ago in Dragon magazine, with a few additions of my own, which I list below: First, while Bruxe gave a system for determining the tax income, he did not speak anything about resource or standard income. Since the numbers in Rules Cyclopedia were not built to work with Bruce's alterations, here's a system I developed for determining the other income types. Resource Income First, determine the resources of the dominion. Either assign the number and the type based on the available info, or roll randomly on the tables in RC. Then, divide the population into groups according to territory type and check the following table: Territory Type Anim Veget Miner City 10 5 15 Large Town 8 4 12 Small Town/Suburban 6 3 9 Village/Rural 2 1 3 Borderland 1 0.5 1.5 Wilderness 0 0 0 Income is given in sp per inhabitant Example: suppose a dominion has a small town of 4000 people, and 20000 rural population. It also has 1 animal and 1 vegetable resource. Thus, the town generates 4000*6=24000 sp for animal and 4000*3=12000 sp for vegetable resources. The rural people generate 20000*2=40000 sp for animal and 20000*1=20000 sp for vegetable resources. The dominion's total resource income is 24000+12000+40000+20000=96000 sp, or 9600 gp. The rationale for this system is that people in rural areas use many resources themselves, while urban people often engage in trade, thus producing more revenue. Standard Income This one is also too excessive at 10gp per family, especially since you have to pay taxes on it in cash. I reasoned that people in urban areas would be more available for service than in borderlands, Here's the standard income table, in gp per inhabitant: City 2 Large Town 1.6 Small Town/Suburban 1.2 Village/Rural 0.8 Borderland 0.4 Wilderness 0 Example: the dominion mentioned above would generate 4000*1.2=4800 gp of standard income from the town, and 20000*0.8=16000 gp in rural areas. Standard income can be used for holidays, visiting nobles, and such. It can be used for paying taxes to a liege in a feudal system (e.g. Karameikos, but not Glantri, where taxes must be paid in cash). Okay, these are the additions, and now I'll explain the format in which I'm going to send those statistics. First, I mention the terrain, population level, and cash taxes. I assumed there is a village in every lesser dominion, where 20% of total population lives. Note that I determined the population using GAZ3's rules, not Bruce's (well, actually GAZ3's rules are also Bruce's :) I also tried to assign resources to each dominion. In case of principalities, the resources are usually known. For lesser dominions, I assumed that each has 2 resources (the most common result on the random table). Dominions with clear terrain have a vegetable resource, forests have animal or vegetable, hills have animal (or mineral if close to mountains), and mountains have mineral (or animal if close to other terrain). I then calculated resource income based on these. Then, I show the standard income. Next, I calculate the Council tax (which is 20% of all three income types, payable in cash). I then subtract the tax from the sum of tax and resource income to get net cash income. From this, I subtract the overhead (I used the table in Bruce's article). This gives me the cash available to the ruler each month (for paying troops, researching spells, etc.). Finally, I calculate the yearly XP. I included both tax and resource income in XP, I then calculated the XP for 10 years and showed the level each ruler would achieve by 1010 AC (I assume the starting XP was at midpoint of the level). I also presented an alternate XP calculation (for those who like less power) which includes only tax income in XP. OK, so, my first post will be on the house of Ritterburg. It should arrive along with this one. ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:26:16 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - House of Ritterburg Here's the first post. Feel free to comment/ask questions. House of Ritterburg Aalban Main resource: 1 animal (swine), 1 vegetable (cabbage/potatoes/ grain/beer) 13 hexes: clear; rural; pop. 14560; tax 1456 dc 9 hexes: clear with river; rural; pop. 15120; tax 1512 dc Leenz: small town; pop. 4500; tax 1350 dc Graez: village; pop. 1300; tax 130 dc Total Population: 4500 town/suburban, 30980 village/rural Tax Income: 4448 dc Resource Income: 13344 dc Standard Income: 30184 dc Council Tax: 9596 dc Net Cash: 8196 dc Overhead (60%): 4918 dc Available Cash: 3278 dc With 213504 XP/year, in 10 years Jaggar von Drachenfels gains 2135040 XP, rising from M30 to M36! Alternate: 53376 XP/year, rises from M30 to M34. Berrym Main resource: 2 animal 7 hexes: hills; rural; pop. 2800; tax 280 dc Berrym: village; pop. 700; tax 70 dc Total population: 3500 village/rural Tax Income: 350 dc Resource Income: 1400 dc Standard Income: 2800 dc Council Tax: 910 dc Net Cash: 840 dc Overhead (45%): 378 dc Available Cash: 462 dc With 21000 XP/year, in 10 years Narda Shelyn gains 210000 XP, rising from M15 to M16 Alternate: 4200 XP/year, does not rise in level. Blofeld Main resource: 2 mineral 6 hexes: mountains; borderland; pop. 336; tax 16.8 dc 1 hex: hills; rural; pop. 280; tax 28 dc Blofeld: village; pop. 154; tax 15.4 dc Total Population: 770 village/rural Tax Income: 60.2 dc Resource Income: 462 dc Standard Income: 616 dc Council Tax: 228 dc Net Cash: 294.2 dc Overhead (35%): 103 dc Available Cash: 191.2 dc With 6266 XP/year, in 10 years Rolf von Graustein gains 62660 XP, not rising in level (but he probably gains lots of XP from creating constructs, so he might actually rise a few levels). Alternate: 722 XP/year, does not rise in level. Adlerturm Main resource: 1 animal, 1 mineral 4 hexes: hills, river; rural; pop. 1680; tax 168 dc 3 hexes: hills; rural; pop. 840; tax 84 dc Adlerturm: village; pop. 630; tax 63 dc Total Population: 3150 village/rural Tax Income: 315 dc Resource Income: 1575 dc Standard Income: 2520 dc Council Tax: 882 dc Net Cash: 1008 dc Overhead (50%): 504 dc Available Cash: 504 dc With 22680 XP/year, in 10 years Franz Lowenroth gains 226800 XP, rising from M12 to M14. Alternate: 3780 XP/year, does not rise in level. General Statistics The House of Ritterburg provides the council with 11616 dc/month. Aalban: fairly good dominion, though not great. Berrym: I think this is not worth the bother... well, perhaps Narda Shelyn just wants the title. Blofeld: great resources, but no population to work them. Adlerturm: the lowest noble in Ritterburg controls a better dominion than the two others... ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:51:45 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - Nithia I was wondering why no references were made in the Almanacs about prince Neferes, son of the Nithian pharaoh. Why wasn't he asked to identify his father? Don't you think he'd have something to say about the succession for the throne. (I guess he was just forgotten, as he only has a one-line reference in Kingdom of Nithia book). ***************************** "We are the Harpers. We are the Lord ** ** Protectors of the Realms. Fools, all - but ** Aleksei Andrievski ** the Gods look down and smile glory upon us." ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** "Never cross spells with gods, archmages, ** aka Solmyr the Archmage ** liches - or Harpers." ** ** "Harpers rush in where fools fear to tread." ***************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:11:09 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Nonhumans of Eastern Karameikos On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >who is the Queen you mention from Queen's Harvest? Is that Princess Argenta of Haven made a full Queen, or is it the Queen of Karameikos (meaning presumably Stefan's daughter grown up)? Is there more information on Karameikos from that module that would be useful for those running campaigns in the area? I dont know who mentioned the Queen but, The Queen from Queens Harvest is Illiana Penhaligion, Illigitemate daughter of Lord Arturos Penhaligion. She is not actually a Queen but she claims her right as heir to the Barony of Penhaligion. She is also ravingly mad. I've incorporated her into a major NPC in my own campaign. On Non-humans. How many Vyalia clans are there in Karameikos? Just one? Any ideas for names of the clans? Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #16 ******************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:16:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #17 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Thursday, January 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 017 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Welcome to the Jungle... Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Welcome to the Jungle... RE: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Welcome to the Jungle... Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Economy and XP Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world Re: [MYSTARA] - Beagle stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Thanatos Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions Immortals [was Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments] Re: [MYSTARA] - House of Ritterburg Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals vs Gods [was Druidical alignments] [MYSTARA] - Spheres and Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - The Federation Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals vs Gods [MYSTARA] - Lycanthropy and demi-humans [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Re: A New Idea for Skills ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:15:58 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Welcome to the Jungle... Cool Artifact. Who would want shield? And who would see it destroyed? I just pictured an Indiana Jones like Thyatian archeologist searching the jungles for the shield being chased by both natives and Storm Soliders... Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:09:48 -0800 From: jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Welcome to the Jungle... >THE SHIELD OF THE WINDS >A Lesser Artifact of the Sphere of Thought Created by Diulanna (OD&D rules from WotI) I like it. Just enough info to make it worth sticking in any campaign. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1998 12:12:00 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Welcome to the Jungle... >THE SHIELD OF THE WINDS >A Lesser Artifact of the Sphere of Thought Created by Diulanna (OD&D rules from WotI) Do you have more of this? I liked it very much!!! Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:11:48 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Economy and XP >Since you already know that I'm crazy about Glantri, and I recently started attending a couple of accounting courses at my school, I'll start posting the statistics for Glantrian dominions. Brief sidenote: And here I thought I was the only one who got inspired to create Mystara projects based on classes I'm taken. The Kogolor HWR I wrote up was influenced rather heavily by the Cultural Anthropology course I was taking to kill off a social science requisite. Main part of post: I've just started my community organization class and it got me thinking...why don't we try to develop some of the larger cities of Mystara in detail? The simplistic maps and keys given in the Hollow World boxed set or Dawn of the Emporers or whereever (B6's Specularam map was just horrid IMO) obviously don't represent a truly vibrant city, with their diverse populations. I mean, imagine all the different nationalities and religions that make their home in Thyatis City (one of the few cities which was designed with any sense) or Alpha on Norworld. Or, on an even smaller scale, a place like the university of Blackmoor, with all the races being united for one of the first times in history. There are so many small locales that can be put into greater detail. I don't know if anyone on the list has the time or desire to work on such an in-depth description or any idea on what kind of format to use, but I think such projects would be appreciated by the list at large. Oh well, that's it for now. - -Mischa, who thinks he's getting better ideas for projects now that he longer has the time to personally work on them Trent Lott murdered campaign reform and now he's looking for the killer..makes you wonder if Trent Lott drives a White Ford Bronco. -Mark Russell *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:39:27 -0600 From: ccosman@huntingdon.edu (Cecil Cosman) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia >Any other ideas? Theories? Here's one... What happens to the spell of preservation during the time of no magic. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:22:05 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world >Guess I'll have to post my stuff up soon. I've done some preliminary writeups (PWA style) for many of the Blackmoorian dominions, as given in the DA series. I've been meaning to post it on my web page, but I never seem to find the time... Whenever you can get them up. I doubt anyone on the list minds the delay and many of us probably have little spare time for our own ideas as is. I really want to get that Krugel Orc HWR done but... Glad to know I'm not the only one out there who wants more in-depth info on the Blackmoor cultures though. Darn it, that setting is so well-done but leaves so much room to work with too. Another quick idea..Blackmoor in its glory days..don't know if anyone has tried using it, but it may be interesting to see how they handled the sudden rise to supremacy. Even with all their enemies at the time of DA1, I don't see them having any troubles with Uther and the Fetch in charge, with Thonia in rapid decline and with the likely assistance from the Beagle crew (and possibly the Sand Folk too) at the end of DA3. Then again if Uther dies...if the Iron Duke takes over Thonia..if the Afridhi and Coot make any alliance...one thing that may be interesting to work with is a Blackmoor timeline that details the 1000 years from DA1 till the end of the empire. Or a couple timelines, for several different possibilities. One thing I dislike about the Mystara net-almanac is that they give one chain of events for how things will turn out when there are so many ways to go with it. Oh well, might as well end this rant before it gets totally out of hand ;) >URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill One quick note - your link to the mailing list homepage needs changing. I think the new site is at http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html but I don't have frames so can't tell if this is the page or not. And very nice write-up on the one page about the Sand Folk. Don't ever remember that being posted to the list but looks like an interesting read when I have the time. Trent Lott murdered campaign reform and now he's looking for the killer..makes you wonder if Trent Lott drives a White Ford Bronco. -Mark Russell *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:34:59 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Beagle stuff There have been a surplus of messages pertaining to the FSS Beagle. I have watched the discussion at length. Now I feel it is time to toss in my take on the matter. Sorry if some of this has already been said before. Fist off, there are two accounts of the crash which vary, DA3 and WotI. City of the Gods was obviously written before the events in WotI were properly thought out. Instead of favoring one over another, why not incorporate the two. DA3 is the opening of the Beagle saga. Wrath ties it to the WotI and the Gaz not to mention filling in some holes. Say the Beagle was from another dimension. It was caught up in a "freak energy vortex" and sucked into the Mystara dimension. The mechanical problems mounted and the Beagle was forced down on Mystara. Say the Beagle crew were not aware of crossing the dimensional barriers (note the plural). They set up a distress beacon with a receivable range of a light year. Unfortunately the dimension thing prevented the chance of a Federation vessel coming within range of it. And who is to say the Federation knew the principles behind crossing dimensions. They may of not even known about other dimensions existing. High technology base does not necessarily mean they were all knowing. IIRC the Beagle's engineers couldn't explain why the Beagle's drive failed. Given the nature of a survey vessel, one disappearing would not be uncommon. Upon being missed, inquiries would be made. But given the unknown factor, the only thing to do would be to send another vessel out to trace its path. And that path may not even be known. The nature of communications available to the Beagle are unknown. It is possible that no such mission updates would be sent back to the Galactic Survey Bureau or the Federation. It is possible that the info is gathered and stored to be reported to the authorities upon the return home. The speed of a vessel doesn't matter. Warp 1 or 9 is insignifcant for a survey vessel. Lulls in activity (travel between systems) would have the crew in stasis to preserve them against the years. High speed is not an asset for exploration. It is more attune to transport and military vessels. High speed vessels would over shoot the things that the Beagle would be looking for. The only time high speed would be used would be in travelling between systems. The Federation may not even continue to exist. Loose confederations usually don't. Too much self interest often interferes in sustained unity. And remember that the former crewmember Benekander is an Immortal. Surely he would be capable of crossing the dimensional barriers to seek out the Federation. WotI says he has made Mystara his home. Could mean that the Federation is no more. Could even mean that Benekander's home planet is no more. The Federation was supposed to maintain internal peace and order. It is easy to assume it also served as an alliance against some outside threat such as Star Treks (OS) Klingons. Perhaps the "klingons" struck or did something to undermine the Federation's unity. Time to pull out Tale of the Comet if you want some of this to follow the Beagle to Mystara. You could also link Benekander's view of Immortal interferance to the loss of the Federation/home planet. Sort of a private war against the superpowers that cause some much unasked stuff to be fall the common folk through the abuse of power. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:34:12 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments << God/Goddesses exist on most Prime Planes and heavily throughout the astral plane, but on Mystara there is no gods. There are Immortals. They go by completely different rules in almost every aspect. >> And if Mystaran Immortals would feel like gods, they would call themselves gods and not immortals. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:48:08 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - (Mystara) Blackmoor world >One quick note - your link to the mailing list homepage needs changing. I think the new site is at >http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html but I don't have frames so can't tell if this is the page or not. (See, Leroy, I'm not the ONLY one ;) ) You can bypass Leroy's frames page and go directly to the MML page with: http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/mysthome.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:49:03 -0600 From: ccosman@huntingdon.edu (Cecil Cosman) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Water circle of Alphatia Responding to the message of Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:39:27 -0600 from ccosman@huntingdon.edu (Cecil Cosman): >>Any other ideas? Theories? >Here's one... What happens to the spell of preservation during the time of >no magic. I should really clarify what I mean. During the week magic takes a well deserved break. What happens with those little underground creatures that the spell of preservation keeps in check. Also. Could people abandon their culture without the downside during this time? ************************************************************************** >* >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:23:11 -0600 From: ccosman@huntingdon.edu (Cecil Cosman) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Thanatos On an immortal subject. my group of people are starting to head to the four winds (two army enlistments) and I wanna set up some type of pbm immortal camp. But I'm lacking ideas. If anyone has any immortal ideas and or might want to be included in this camp. Suggestions for a pbm camp would be nice too. C.Cosman *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:14:34 -0600 From: ccosman@huntingdon.edu (Cecil Cosman) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spheres, Dimentions and Planes Responding to the message of Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:56:00 -0500 from Michael Southon : >3) If time is not the 4th Dimension, then what is? What is time? I see no other possibility than that time is the 4th. As I understand it there are many '4th dimensions' mathmaticaly speaking... the fourth is just whatever is assigned after the usual length width and depth. So you could have time or temperature or any other measurable force. Hope that's not too terribly confusing. ;) By the by, I just got back to school and I'm catching up on a month worth of thoughts so that should explain this. ;) C.Cosman *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:23:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space, Planes and Dimentions On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >>On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >a bunch of shit thinking he knew what he was talking about, and got slammed into place by Cthulhudrew with a whole lotta facts to back him up: :) Not really. This whole discussion has been pretty interesting, to me, and it just prompted me to do a bit of research that I'd been putting off for a long time, to provide some sort of justification for a certain point of view (that being, that it's possible the Federation could have taken quite some time to reach Mystara). Either is still feasible, as I'llpoint out to you in a sec... >sounds quite sensible. so Mystara is NOT in normal range of the federation, the beagle came there by wormhole ... or did it drift a long ways after its crew was put into suspended animation? wasnt it a city-ship designed for LONG voyages? what if the crew overshot their target destination and the ship failed to wake them up, so the Federation might not even still EXIST anymore ... See- I still contend that it probably did hit a wormhole or something similar, in order to end up there in Mystara space, as it is such an incredibly long ways away (plus, it goes along with WotI, which implies something of the sort). However (and here's where more backing for your original point comes in), DA3 does mention that the Beagle was specifically in that area of space, mapping the unknown quadrants for the Federation. Which, to go back to your point, implies that the Federation did know where the Beagle was, and (unless something drastic happened to the Fed in the Beagle's absence), should have been able to send a rescue crew. Since they didn't, or seemingly didn't, it's my assumption that, as you suggest, they must have hit a wormhole or something. So it still remains one of those, argue it how you will thingies... much like a lot of things relating to Blackmoor, it seems. :) >no need to come to a particular consensus on this, unless we are actually planning a federation visit ... so i'm just making idle conversation. thanks for the accurate info on trek physics. No problem. I was really curious myself to see how long it might have taken the Beagle to reach Mystara, etc. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:13:20 -0600 From: "Galwylin" Subject: Immortals [was Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Druidical alignments] ><< God/Goddesses exist on most Prime Planes and heavily throughout the astral >plane, but on Mystara there is no gods. There are Immortals. They go by completely different rules in almost every aspect. >> >And if Mystaran Immortals would feel like gods, they would call themselv= es >gods and not immortals. My reasons for the Immortal not feeling like gods is for the fact they kn= ow they aren't. In one of my ideas for a creation myth (btw, is there one?) for Mystara concerning the Immortals' history is that at one time there w= ere gods that lifted or gifted the Old Ones the ability to teach the paths to Immortality. I've divided the gods along the paths of immortality and no= t spheres. The spheres are the power source for Immortals and since gods require worship to sustain form, that worship has debased into the paths = to immortality since their destruction by the Old Ones (this would also expl= ain Mystara's emphasise on lawful/neutral/chaotic axis without the inclusion = of good/neutral/evil). This is taking from the idea of Zues slaying Chronus and taking his position. With the destruction of the gods, Mystara was imbued with great amounts of the magical force that is present today (muc= h like the weave on Toril was strengthen by Mystra's destruction and thus fusion with the world). Another effect of the Mystarian gods destruction was possibly the destruction of the Old Ones and the memory loss of their now ancient immortal *children*. There is evidence of the gods existing = at one point hence the Immortals knowledge of their existance (but they're n= ot talking ;). The only problem I'm having with this idea is that the Immortals require worship to sustance form but that should only be a requirement of gods. Perhaps the Immortals aren't able to attain true godhood because they've kept Mystara cut off from the other primes (Toril= , Oerth, etc) trying to keep another god from entering their sphere of influence and usurping their power base until they've uncovered the secre= t of godhood? This is all just a few jumbled thoughts I've been trying to form into a cohesive theory so you'll pardon me for any inconsistanses, please ;) BT= W, how would a Mystarian know the difference if a true god entered Mystara compared to a new Immortal? I think the Immortals need a bit more definition so as to not confuse them with gods or make them true gods. A= ny ideas? - ------------------------------------------------------------ This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 Vote for the Mystara Netlogo! http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/mystara/netlogo.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:50:13 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - House of Ritterburg At 10.26 21/01/98 +0200, you wrote: >Here's the first post. Feel free to comment/ask questions. Ok, here I am. Ritterburg si my favourite Glantrian House. >House of Ritterburg >Aalban >Main resource: 1 animal (swine), 1 vegetable (cabbage/potatoes/ >grain/beer) Why not 1 animal and 2 vegetables? They produce cabbage/potatoes/grain and beer after all, not just 1 sort of vegetable. What about the war machines crafted in Aalban. Do they count as resources? Just this. PS: great work, I look forward to see the other dominions.... especially since I'm in charge of the economic section of the Net Almanac :-) - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:10:51 -0500 From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals vs Gods [was Druidical alignments] JamugaKhan wrote: ><< God/Goddesses exist on most Prime Planes and heavily throughout the astral >plane, but on Mystara there is no gods. There are Immortals. They go by completely different rules in almost every aspect. >> >And if Mystaran Immortals would feel like gods, they would call themselves gods and not immortals. But just because the Immortals call themselves that, why does this mean that their worshippers will? Although Immortals (from OD&D) follow different game rules (from AD&D), there is no reason to say that they can't be just two words for the same thing. They both serve the same purpose in the game world: that is, they are powerful beings worshipped by less-powerful beings. They both have organised religions based around them, and they are both dependant on these worshippers in order to maintain their own existences. When it comes down to it, the game mechanics that are used to describe these beings are ultimately irrelevant. After all, they would hardly think about themselves in terms of strength or dexterity scores (or any other ability scores) or levels and lists of skills/proficiencies. Of course, there is nothing to say that they are the same thing either, but my points is, how would their worshippers know any different? In fact, there are some people on Mystara that call the Immortals Gods. Gods seems to be the term of preference in the Northern Reaches. According to GAZ 7, an old saying in the North is, "Gods don't notice, but godar do." (page 24 of the players book). In Joshuan's Almanac, the correspondant Astrid Ragnisdottir uses the term "god" all the time instead of Immortal. So both terms are clearly in use on Mystara. IMC I have decided that Gods and Immortals are just two words for the same thing. Although it's never actually come into play, the Gods of places like Toril and Oerth were once mortal too and had to complete a quest for Immortality; their worshippers just aren't aware of this. However, in the end, the actual difference between Gods and Immortals is ultimately up to the individual DM. The worshippers, on the other hand are not likely ever to know the difference, if there is one. Michael Ray Johnson. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:14:00 -0500 From: Michael Southon Subject: [MYSTARA] - Spheres and Immortals Hiya all, One more question, as I build up my Grand Unified Theory of Mystaran Everything (GUT-ME) As I understand this, the spheres are the building-blocks of the multiverse (the old-one's lego - bags the red blocks) and as such are a source of power, and the immortals gain powers from, study, and attempt to further the cause of a specific sphere. As the spheres don't have an inteligence or guiding power, and the immortals are merely students of the concept of spheres, is it not highly possible the some immortals GET IT WRONG. Nyx (I think) is a possible example, are undead entropic, chaotic both or neither? if they are not truly furthering the cause of entropy, maybe Nyx THINKS that they are. Another example is the radience, it is not truly furthering the cause of Energy, but some think that it is. Comments? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:00:00 -0500 From: Michael Southon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Federation Previously on NYPD Blue: DM Wrote: <> To which the question can be asked: Why is the future of Mystara technology-oriented rather than magic-oriented? The answer is: The Radience / DOD / WWOM etc. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:23:37 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals vs Gods Michael Ray Johnson rambled (mrjohnson@videotron.ca): [Immortals and gods can do the same stuff, so they are the same thing] I'd agree with that. A Mystaran immortal, and a god from another world are basically the same thing. You could say that a god can do more, but I think that is simply due to the lack of mech describing (and limiting) their power. Personally, I think that a hierarch is more than a match when compared to other "gods". [The mortals can't tell the difference] I'd also agree with that too. IMC, mortals call the immortals "gods", since o them that is how they appear. Some immortals call themselves gods, while others call themselves immortals. It's a personal preference amongst them, although those that call themselves immortals think the others are pretentious. >Although it's never actually come into play, the Gods of places like Toril and Oerth were once mortal too and had to complete a quest for Immortality; their worshippers just aren't aware of this. Evidence for this would be the ascension of Midnight in FR, although the circumstances are quite different to the normal quest for immortality. >However, in the end, the actual difference between Gods and Immortals is ultimately up to the individual DM. The worshippers, on the other hand are not likely ever to know the difference, if there is one. Yep. The way I do the mech (sorry, the way the mech will be when it is finished) actually has no difference between mortals and immortals. Immortals just have more power. (Practically speaking, all immortals have a base set of abilities, like the ability to gain power from items/worshippers etc). - -- Glenn Butcher "Ka BOOM!" [The expected last battle cry of Lynard the elemaster] mailto:knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au mailto:glennb@ichr.uwa.edu.au *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:46:00 -0500 From: Michael Southon Subject: [MYSTARA] - Lycanthropy and demi-humans Gudday, I've got a campaign with 9 players, three of whom are human, and they are going to come face to face will a heck of a lot of were-rats. I know lycanthropy is supposed to kill demi-humans, but I want to know if there are any other rules out there?? Thanx, Leadryl Dracos *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:12:11 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Re: A New Idea for Skills I've been following this thread with interest -- I've always kind of thought that the non-weapon Skill system lacked a bit. Several people have offered interesting alternatives. However, I just had a thought, which occured from reading the following comment by Glenn: At 09:10 AM 1/22/98 +0800, Glenn Butcher wrote: >The problem is that magic users are going to have high int, the fighters high strength. It is that way due to the nature of the class. Basically it's handing extra skill slots to magic users, and quite a few of them too! What if, instead of basing the gaining of more Skills just on Intelligence it was somehow combined with the Prime Requesit of the Character? Then Fighters would get bonuses for their Strength, Clerics for the Wisdom, and Magic Users (of course) for their Intelligence. I'm not sure how to do it yet -- the thought isn't quite fully formed. However, I'm wondering if anyone else here has their imagination sparked by this idea.... Hmm. How's this for a first stab: All players get the regular 1 skill at the specified slots. However, if desired, a player can take up to their Stat Bonus (?) in extra skills that fit under their prime requisite? People with negative (or no) bonuses for their Prime Req. (a rare occurance anyway, I should think) are not pennalized, but only get thier base 1 skill. Well, this plan has a disadvantage for those people with a Prime Req in areas that don't have a lot of skills associated with them (Strength or Constitution for example). Perhaps the DM could assign a certain relative rank to Stats and then allow players to use one slot for Prime Req. skills, two (one and a half?) slots for "second tier" skills (based on the Prime Req.) and three slots (two?) for "third tier" skills. Here is a quick set of possible rankings: Clerics (and Druids) WIS - Prime Req STR, CON, CHA - Tier 2 (IMHO, Priests tend to be "Charismatic", but YMMV) INT, DEX - Tier 3 Fighters STR - Prime Req CON, DEX - Tier 2 INT, WIS, CHA - Tier 3 Magic Users INT - Prime Req WIS, DEX - Tier 2 STR, CON, CHA - Tier 3 Thieves DEX - Prime Req STR, INT, CHA - Tier 2 WIS, CON - Tier 3 Dwarves STR - Prime Req CON, WIS - Tier 2 DEX, INT, CHA - Tier 3 Elves STR, INT - Prime Req DEX, CON, CHA - Tier 2 WIS - Tier 3 Halflings STR, DEX - Prime Req INT, CHA - Tier 2 WIS, CON - Tier 3 Mystics STR, DEX - Prime Req WIS, CON, - Tier 2 INT, CHA - Tier 3 Any comments? Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #17 ******************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.