mystara-digest Sunday, February 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 100 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - Fighting in the water Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Fighting in the water Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Fighting in the water Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:15:15 -0600 From: "Galwylin" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! >From: bjm10@cornell.edu >=20 >This is all that I was worried about. It sounded to me like there was = a=20 >movement afoot to get this list to put forth certain materials beyond=20 those commercially published designated as being of higher status than=20 any materials that might come later and thus conflict with the earlier=20 material--even TSR didn't show that level of sacrosanct preservation wi= th >its own published material, cf Princess Ark vs. the original Known=20 World. Some of us *did* have a "Great Khanate" worked out, after all..= =2E I had hoped I hadn't been so unclear than non-conan material wouldn't be posted to the list. In any event, I would like to see what you have work= ed out on the 'Great Khanate' or anything even if it goes against TSR published materials. I apologize to the list for contributing to this conan/non-canon debate a= nd being unclear in the process too. - ------------------------------------------------------------- This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:36:43 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fighting in the water 3@giga.com.ar pontificated: >The players can fight under the water? >How much time can a player swiming under the water?. I invented a rule: constitution*20 seconds. And the movement is a 1/4 of the real. I think that is too long. Most average people (ie Con around 10) can only hold breath for about 2 minutes. And that is while inactive. Trying to fight at the same time will cut down that time by quite a bit. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:42:07 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Alex295@aol.com pontificated: >But a HE is attractive. More so to humans who see him/her as physically attractive. Afterall, the human parent must have been a looker as few elv= es >would bed down with a human and fewer would "do it" with a homely one. To elves, the attraction is less so. Prejudice for the "tainting of the elve= n >bloodlines" would surely make a HE less appealing to an elf. I'm not sure that would be the case. IMO, even the most attractive human would probably not very attractive to elves, so the elf are gererally attracted to some other aspect of human, and looks doesn't matter at all. Think it other way, if a human fall in love with an orc, it probably would not be due to the orcs look, no matter how attarctive that orc is among orcs. And I'm not sure elves would be so protactive of their bloodline. They might consider the HE a blessing as a rare product between an unlikely union. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:46:38 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes Daly pontificated: >I know it was not really the point of your post. But I prefer halflings not being thieves in Mystara. I see the Hin of the Five Shires as being somewhat more capable and independent than halflings of other settings. While they enjoy good food and a good pipe now and then, they are not so given to comfort that they are all pudgy little backwater people. While halflings could become the best thieves in the world, it doesn't meant they all are. My campaign description of halfling is they are naturally quiet and nimble, so if they decide to become thieves, they can generally surpass human. But very few halfling actually want to became thieves. In my D&D game, I given halfling some thief skills just because it seems to be they are a bit underpowered when compared to other classes. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | UVa, Material Science Dept. |"Earth is too small and fragile a basket IPM Lab | for Mankind to keep all his eggs in." (804) 984-3789 | -- Robert Anson Heinlein *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:47:01 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes << Which is why I suggested a while ago changing the rule to that elves can progress unlimited as magic users, dwarves as fighters, and halflings as thieves. While humans have level limitation but are the only race that can become multi-classed. It seems to fit classic fantasy a little better. >> This damned halfling thief stereotype! I knew first the D&D halflings, and I perceived them as merry, but dangerous wood- and grassland fighters. The typical thief perception came later, when I played in an AD&D campaign. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:47:00 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D << In other words, why do you like AD&D? I'm don't trying to judge you, just asking for opinions!!! >> I spit on AD&D! Jamuga Khan A player, who started playing AD&D and switched to D&D *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:46:58 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << What do you mean by "the pit"? Are you referring to the access to the Hollow World provided in WotI?>> Exactly! <island. Substitute what?>> The island of Alphatia! <number of spellcasters as Bellissaria is only thin settled. It has less population than the mainland continent of Alphatia. But that is not saying much as the mainland continent of Alphatia is incredibly dense. I would argue that there are still quite a few spellcasters in Bellisaria since there were before the sinking and there undoubtedly would be several survivors who would relocate to Bellisaria.>> Bellissaria has not as many inhabitants as Thyatis City and on the island of Alphatia are more than one that can match this megalopolis. << Unless you have some canonical reference...>> I'm, sorry, no... << I thought OW (Old World) was a new term for the Known World. Are you referring to the Hollow World or the Known World. I am just not sure of your point here. >> Outer World! I meant the Outer World! << What minimum scores? >> INT 16 for magic-users, WIS 16 for clerics required in the HW. Jamuga Khan "I'm in hurry, forgive me. There are so much new lands to conquer." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:47:06 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality << So if I'm don't wrong, the Inmortals are Gods. So the word "Inmortal" it's not correct when it used in D&D. >> You're wrong. If D&D Mystaran Immortals would feel themselves as gods, they would call themselves gods. Jamuga Khan "And next time, when somebody ask you, if you were a god, say 'yes' !" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:47:07 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D << More RPGers play AD&D than any other system. >> And most people use software products from Redmond. :-@ Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:47:06 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D << In AD&D you have all the weapons in the first level and all the fight and attacks forms. I mean, the whole game is the same, in the 1st and in the 20nd level!!! >> How disgusting... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:47:03 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics << You are assuming of course that all clerics must be able to cast spells. Remember that the ban on clerics is really the mages' attempt to regulate those who might challenge their own might. So the "Sheperds of Rad" could be considered backcountry clerics who don't have spells. Their words of wisdom and non-magical healing techniques make them beloved of many common people. >> Sorry, but the shepherds are mages. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:02:30 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << Actual conquest (with the intent of imposing their own culture) is clearly not a good way for the Alphatians to proceed. However, they can easily form alliances with any culture that does not have an absolute hatred of spell casters (i.e., with over 90% of them). They won't be controlling much of the surface of the Hollow World, but I would not be at all surprised if in a few years most of it is under Alphatian "protection". >> Okay, i can see your point here...i like that idea..... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:16:29 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << All the Alphatians would have to do is send promising young people to the outer world, where they can learn basic magic if they have sufficient talent. >> Exactly what I said. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:16:20 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << Why would the DM have to solve the problem of teaching magic to the youth? Because only an intelligence of 16 qualifies for a magic-user. Because only a wisdom of 16 qualifies for a cleric. But for the right Alphatia as we know it we need much more clerics and magic-users. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:32:40 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves In a message dated 98-02-21 20:56:35 EST, scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu writes: >And I'm not sure elves >would be so protactive of their bloodline. They might consider the HE a blessing as a rare product between an unlikely union. It would depend on whether anyone with human ancestry could ever be a "true" Elf. If we were to take what the AD&D PHB (2nd edition) says about Half-Elves, Elves would have very good reason to resist the "pollution" of their bloodlines -- random matings between Humans and Elves would eventually lead to the extincion of the Elves. On the other hand, if the human traits can be "bred out" by matings of later generations with pure Elves, then the Elves would have far less cause for concern. Also, in regard to social disadvantages of Half-Elves -- they would apply most strongly in places where the two races distrust each other or are considered unequal by those in power. In societies that are accepting of both Elves and Humans, being regarded as an Elf by Humans and as a Human by Elves would not be a big deal. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message.Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 05:56:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #100 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:32:35 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fighting in the water In a message dated 98-02-21 20:50:46 EST, scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu writes: >I think that is too long. Most average people (ie Con around 10) can >only hold breath for about 2 minutes. And that is while inactive. Trying to fight at the same time will cut down that time by quite a bit. The _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ is actually a good deal less generous. The time before Constitution checks become necessary works out to five seconds per point of constitution, or a little less than a minute for an average person. Then the character must roll Con or less on d20, then (Con - 1) or less on d20 ten seconds later, then (Con - 2) or less on d20 ten seconds after that, and so on. The chance of an average person lasting as long as two minutes is rather small, but a really tough character with 18 constitution could theoretically hold out for over four minutes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:32:41 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Here is a query for the D&D die-hards. I must admit that I personally prefer D&D over AD&D, but I can see the "handwriting on the wall" as it were. The problem is this -- the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ was published in 1991, nearly seven years ago. It probably went out of print a couple of years later. So my question is this: Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going to introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be getting difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other works on Mystara would be even tougher to track down. So -- how do you "keep the faith alive"? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:39:56 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! << Got all that? Good, now on to a few other points... >> Got it boss.....sorry for the trouble ;) - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:42:33 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: >Because only an intelligence of 16 qualifies for a magic-user. Because only a wisdom of 16 qualifies for a cleric. My post-apocalyptic Hollow World has a codicil in the peace treaty between New Alphatia and the Immortals: On the continent of New Alphatia, and there alone, the minimum talent is what would translate as an attribute score of 10 in D&D. However, those clerics or mages who "qualify" under this codicil (Int/Wis 10-15) only can cast magic upon the continent of New Alphatia. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:12:29 -0600 From: "Galwylin" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D >From: Kaviyd@aol.com >=20 >Here is a query for the D&D die-hards. I must admit that I personally prefer >D&D over AD&D, but I can see the "handwriting on the wall" as it were. The problem is this -- the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ was published in 1991= , >nearly seven years ago. It probably went out of print a couple of year= s=20 >later. So my question is this: >=20 >Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going = to >introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be gettin= g >difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other works >on Mystara would be even tougher to track down. So -- how do you "keep the faith alive"? I really don't see how we can except to carry the flag ourselves. Withou= t TSR at least keeping the Rules Cyclopedia or the D&D Classic box set in print it's alot harder (read impossible) to bring new people to the D&D rules except by doing so personally. Too bad they don't release the D&D rules to the public domain so at least they could circulate via the internet. There was talk about a 3rd Edition AD&D that would go back to its roots. I had thought it was going back to the D&D rules into 3rd Edition AD&D but was told it's 'roots' are 1st Edition AD&D. As much of = a waste of some fine material we think it is, I suppose that those that are in charge hold the final decision about what should be considered good. = I hope that Mystara is at least allowed to find its footing in AD&D before = it follows D&D in obscurity. I can see the desire to have one rule system used but if they would get someone who would put as much work in translating Mystara into AD&D as some of their other settings, I believe Mystara could rival many of the current settings. Though the information they have released via the internet (Savage Coast, Shadow Elves Gazatteer= ) is good, they also said they wouldn't release anything in such a way unle= ss they had no plans to expand on the material at a later time. This tells = me that perhaps Mystara has already been buried by TSR but we weren't invite= d to the funeral. Whatever the case is, I feel they have really missed a great oppurtunity with Mystara but who knows, there have been a few newcomers to the setting. Maybe there's hope yet but I think D&D will no= t ever return. - ------------------------------------------------------------- This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:19:35 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fighting in the water At 09:32 PM 2/21/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-21 20:50:46 EST, scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu writes: >>I think that is too long. Most average people (ie Con around 10) can >>only hold breath for about 2 minutes. And that is while inactive. Trying to fight at the same time will cut down that time by quite a bit. >The _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ is actually a good deal less generous. The time before Constitution checks become necessary works out to five seconds per point of constitution, or a little less than a minute for an average person. Then the character must roll Con or less on d20, then (Con - 1) or less on d20 ten seconds later, then (Con - 2) or less on d20 ten seconds after that, and so on. The chance of an average person lasting as long as two minutes is rather small, but a really tough character with 18 constitution could theoretically hold out for over four minutes. I did a little research several years back and found that an Olympic swimmer can hold his breath for about 2.5 minutes. So I generally go with the Con of the character divided by 10 unless he is a trained swimmer. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:28:42 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! >I apologize to the list for contributing to this conan... debate and being unclear in the process too. You know its funny...when I was in high school I made the Hyborea area a "Conan" setting. And I actually brought Conan into a game as an npc. I never use literary characters anymore though... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:38:01 -0600 From: "Galwylin" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! >>I apologize to the list for contributing to this conan... debate and being unclear in the process too. >=20 >You know its funny...when I was in high school I made the Hyborea area = a >"Conan" setting. And I actually brought Conan into a game as an npc. = I >never use literary characters anymore though... Unclear and a bad speller too.. just ain't my week ;) - ------------------------------------------------------------- This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 02:35:10 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Sorry to hear that the admin and others have been upset by the recent arguments, which I am probably more responsible for than any other single individual. I am satisfied with Leroy's decision not to have any official canon policy, and I will desist from further arguments. However, I hope I can beg your indulgence for just a few more lines in order to clarify what it was I was arguing for, as the original terms of the debate seem to have become drastically obscured. This whole argument started in a private discussion group formed voluntarily by just some of us from the larger list for the express purpose of further developing the history of the city of Cynidicea, as developed in B4. In this private group, there was some strong dissension as to reasonable approaches for creating new Mystara information for the mailing list. I proposed to that group that if our purpose was indeed to progressively develop Mystara beyond what was available in published sources, a good rule of thumb would be to make use of all previously posted net-information (i am deliberately avoiding the word "canon") to as great an extent as possible, both to add richness of background and to honor the work of previous contributors, as well as to minimize proliferation of alternate-net-timelines. This was intended as a reasoned argument, not an authoritative position, though I will admit I got a little emotional about it because I kept reiterating the argument and even within that small group forum some other contributors seemed to be refusing to take my logic seriously. I never once advocated censorship or the formation of any official principle or position, but I did ask the (I think permissible) question of why someone who was not interested in developing net-info would join a private discussion group devoted to developing net-info. At some point this debate was carried over into the larger mailing list, and turned into a discussion about "official" canon; at this point I became frightened that my own hard work and that of other contributors to the list would be censored or punished in some way by the formation of an official editorial body. Not wanting to see that happen, I attempted to present my reasoning as to what is wrong with that position. I realize I did get a bit belligerent in my choice of language, and I apologize if anyone was offended or hurt. My only interest is in cooperating with other DMs on the further development of Mystara, not in fighting flamewars. Thanks once again for your time, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 05:23:31 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << My post-apocalyptic Hollow World has a codicil in the peace treaty between New Alphatia and the Immortals: On the continent of New Alphatia, and there alone, the minimum talent is what would translate as an attribute score of 10 in D&D. However, those clerics or mages who "qualify" under this codicil (Int/Wis 10-15) only can cast magic upon the continent of New Alphatia. >> O.k., this is your campaign, but I don't like it and I wouldn't use it. For all who think like I there is another solution to be found. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 05:55:26 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-21 08:31:27 EST, you write: << In AD&D, the players see the dragons like a beast they can hunt. And the dragons in general no have importance. I mean, if you see the monster compendium 1, there are so many criatures with so much HD that the dragons seems like "babys". D&D is Dungeons & Dragons. So the dragons are important, no only because the name of the game. I think that in AD&D you only think in the XPs. I sure that many of you think like me: the dragons in AD&D are so stupid that it's a really shame. >> I think what happened to dragons in ad&d was that their frequency was increased for the power gamers. Look at some of the Settings. Dragons out the wahzoo. Bodies of dragons defending a city. Another body supplimenting the attackers. It is somewhat ironic that a system named "advanced dungeons and dragons" has deteriorated and even fostered power gaming by catering and fostering players to expect a dragon in every venture. More complicated and dice based game mechanics is one thing, but to sacrifice the core of an adventure, setting material, is almost shameful. That is one of reasons for my holding Mystara with such fondness. What other setting can boast such a well thought out and followed historical and substance basis. That is what I think sets us Mystarans apart, the details. Now whether you use D&D, AD&D, or like me a combo of the two the campaign setting is the same. And the setting is primary to the game. But speaking of dragons, it should be pointed out that Ravenloft is bare of dragons. Aside from a reference to a small red dragon in the novel "Knight of the Black Rose" no other dragons are to be found. BTW IMO RL is one of the other AD&D settings with a substance based background. Very well done. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #100 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:00:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #101 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Sunday, February 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 101 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why the authoritarianism? Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Half Elf Profiles Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Independence (was Stereotypes) [MYSTARA] - Time Travel Artifacts (was Immortal Candidates) Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Dragons... Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - Holier than thou Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 06:32:23 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why the authoritarianism? In a message dated 98-02-21 11:45:21 EST, you write: << << Fine, but that's published stuff. Adding an additional level of "net canon" is nothing more than ego stroking. >> Right, it could have nothing to do with helping to continue Mystara or anything.... If you don't like the idea then don't use it. There's no gun to your head here. -Inconu >> Finally someone said it. As Inconu said no one is forcing any of this stuff into your campaign. Even "official published TSR material " is subject to variation. And since TSR has stopped publishing Mystara stuff, what is a Mystara enthusiest to do upon playing through WotI and the PWAs? Quit? No you develope further on. The Net Almanac is just such an extension. Most of the guys' ideas were pretty much hinted at in the preceding "officially published TSR Almanacs". I see no problem with them. In fact the AC1014 almanac is pretty open to fit events from your own campaign. Most described events are beyond the reach of PCs as they center on governments and such. I cannot think of a single adv. module that has a concrete ending. And the modules should never be an automatic success. What is the use of playing if the adventure is heavy in the favor of the PCs. As for deviation it is naturall. As mentioned above the variation of outcomes gives cause for an overall deviation of sorts in each individuals campaign. I suspect few gamers have identical campaigns. God knows my campaigns vary even from each other. Imagine if the PCs fail in Castle Amber. Or if Emperor Thincol were assassinated in the adv. in DotE. Or what if Wendar had been brought into WotI. Or what if Alfheim had gotten wise to the Shadow Elf invasion before it commenced. Or if some PCs had saved the Alphatian Elf Spy before Brannart's minions got prior to WotI. How about Traldaran PCs deposing Duke Stefan during the Marlinev Rebellion. Or if some PCs were to intercept zzonga shipment headed for waiting Alphatian Mages in Thyatis City. How about Thincol falling in the arena by PCs forced into gladiator status simular to DDA1. What about Moglai not being rescued by the dwarf prior to being Golden Khan. Or Oran Meditor succomming to one of the multiple assassination attempts. Or Emperor Tylion not abiding by Eriadna's wishes to step down. Or what if Ixion had focused his war against Rad by using his following among the Khanates. Or a group of PCs attached to Haldemar's Princess Ark slew Synn. Or Kol being killed by humanoid hunting PCs. Be it these are for the most part major events of the time. However say back in the day Thincol was just another gladiator. This and that happens and you have a match held between him and some PC. He falls, is badly scarred, or is badly wounded possibly for life. His future in regards to the Thyatian Imperial Throne would be negligible. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 06:45:38 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) In a message dated 98-02-21 12:20:42 EST, you write: << >> little people. Where exactly does any canon material present this point of >>view of the hin? I've got nearly everything dealing with Mystara, but that >They were able to throw out the orcs and they're not borderline psycho? I'll admit that my copy of the Shires Gazetteer is in a box, somewhere, but still... Hey! We Americans kicked the Brits out and we weren't psycho! >> That is debatable. I should know since I am an American. In a way it was crazy to oppose the British Empire. Thumb your nose at the monarchy. But then again, America has always been observed as a curious if not different sort of nation. It's part of our national character. Heck we have an international crowd here on the List. I am sure more than one will attest to our sanity :-) Mystara wise such perceptions could explain the differing veiws of different nations by different peoples. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:12:01 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-21 17:07:26 EST, you write: << I think they have already figured out how the Hollow World "ticks". Actual conquest (with the intent of imposing their own culture) is clearly not a good way for the Alphatians to proceed. However, they can easily form alliances with any culture that does not have an absolute hatred of spell casters (i.e., with over 90% of them). They won't be controlling much of the surface of the Hollow World, but I would not be at all surprised if in a few years most of it is under Alphatian "protection". And that won't bother the Immortals at all -- in fact, that was part of their intention in placing Alphatia there in the first place. >> I have to agree with Kaviyd on this somewhat. Alliances with the Nithians is feasible given the links to Thothia. The Milenians may sway to the Alphatian standard. Lesser peoples such as the Icevale elves may need a show of force to demonstrate the futility of non cooperation. The main opposition will be the Schattenalffen and Azcan. These two will have to be dealt with at some point. IMO the Alphatians are at least beginning to understand the HW. Bypassing the Spell of Preservation should not be a big deal. Afterall, the Alphatians met a simular challenge when the made Landfall. The thing that puzzles me is the general mindset of the Alphatian peoples. Prior to the sinking, they were in a warlike "let's kick butt" attitude. Wouldn't that attitude still be present due to the Spell of Preservation. I know the Immortals alterred the general population's memory but wouldn't there be some lingering feelings of aggression. Though they do not know who they are ticked off at. Another thought is the alterred memories themselves and the possible paradoxes. Places such as Bluenose who boasted their beaches will find business down as the sea is replaced by open sky. This has got to strike even the lowest level NPC as strange. With so little income how did all these grand and expensive buildings get paid for. Or the random citizen that had a brother but doesn't know where he is. I know the deaths were explained as the result of an earthquake, but that had to of been one hell of a quake. Especially when brother was a soldier and posted .....now where was he posted at? Sundsvall? No. He sailed to his post...but there is no ocean. IMO these inconsistancies are starting to drive the people a bit loony. It should not be long before the whole of Alphatia is beginning to put things together or else go insane. What if someone figured it all out and managed to convince others? The truth spreads and eventually large numbers know what happened. Possibly making it neccessary for Eriadna to make an official proclamation about what has really transpired. Could this be a means of breaking the Spell of Preservation? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:33:52 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves In a message dated 98-02-21 17:07:46 EST, you write: << > Food suitability/weak stomach to either human or elven foods >(Con. Check). What do Elves eat that Humans don't? And vice versa? >> It was my understanding that elves do not eat as much as humans. Their palate requires more splendid meals. Meals consist of venison and vegtables. Since red meat stays in a human's digestive tract for an extended period I thought it would wreak havioc with an elves guts. Venison is a lean meat. Another example is drink. Elves like Feywine. Humans cannot comprehend nor handle its taste or effects. Complete Book of Elves mentions this. IMO since elves are viewed as uppity and snobbish by humans. Their selection of foodstuffs could be a deciding factor in this perception. Hence the tavernkeeper who is offended when an elf will not eat the food he prepared. Since he sees the elf as seeing that his food isn't good enough, the snobbish attitude is reinforced. But mainly I wished to offer a non standard disadvantage of a half elf. A weak stomach seemed logical. Inheriting part of her elven parent's palate will make dinners interesting. Besides, if Terandra is under the weather from eating a certain meal the handicap is different as a sore or upset stomach doesn't really fall to the Cure Disease Spell. Plus there is the implied intestinal gas that could be expected. Not only would it be less than appreciated by her fellows, it could also compromise their position if stealth is required. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:39:53 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves In a message dated 98-02-21 17:08:15 EST, you write: << > HEs age faster than humans and age quicker than elves. Did you mean that Half-Elves age SLOWER than humans, or are you introducing some really short lived Half-Elves? >> Oops. Kaviyd is correct. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Should have read "HEs age slower than humans and age quicker than elves" But on a side note, I did think about HEs with a life span of 30 years. Possibly a freak of nature or mutation. But I dismissed it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:47:46 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half Elf Profiles In a message dated 98-02-21 17:08:15 EST, you write: << She >displays an aversion to some foods. Red meats in particular cause her great discomfort and nausea. She admits to consuming only water and certain wines. Never meads or ales. Hmm. I wonder why she has an aversion to red meats? Elves are noted huntsmen... >> In Terenda's case red meats give her stomach problems. Gas, cramps, the runs, and vomiting are often seen as a result of eating red meats such as beef. Venison does not give her problems. Venison is lower in fat than beef. When you kill a deer and want deer burger meat the processor has to add beef fat to get it to clump together and cook right. Pork, chicken, and fish are easily digestable to her. Hence Terenda's problem probably lies with the fat content instead of the meat itself. BTW starchy foods often give her fits. And drinks such as beer have an adverse affect. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:16:53 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Concerning the article from: >From: Magesmiley@aol.com >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D ><< In AD&D, the players see the dragons like a beast they can hunt. And the >dragons in general no have importance. I mean, if you see the monster compendium 1, there are so many criatures with so much HD that the dragons seems like "babys". >D&D is Dungeons & Dragons. So the dragons are important, no only because the name of the game. >I think that in AD&D you only think in the XPs. I sure that many of you think like me: the dragons in AD&D are so stupid that it's a really shame. >> >... Later on you describe how a DM should play a monster especially a dragon. But WHY do you tell me that in AD&D a DMG can´t do this. I suggest it is "personal bad experience" because I mixed both systems and my players fear every monster regardless of hit-dice. Just think of an article (I think itt was in a dragon) about very dangerous 0-level-NPC. He is a merchant and has money, a politican, a judge that can sentence the PC to go to jail while they have been framed, ... SO PLEASE don´t tell me it´s AD&D. The situation about XP-hunting is (can be) more or less the same in OD&D and AD&D. Hope this problem could be put aside. Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:21:54 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Independence (was Stereotypes) I know this thread is not exactly Mystara oriented but it is. RW history could be a way to compare possible breaking aways from Thyatis. IIRC Thyatian IoD kingdoms are edging towards a more independent role from Thyatis (PWA). If these kingdoms could gain powerful allies to back them up, their bid for independence is feasible. Also after Alphatia was reawaken it almost broke apart. Only the iron will and tantrum fit of Eriadna convinced them the swear allegiance. In a message dated 98-02-21 19:11:48 EST, you write: << You can't deny the fact that England lost one of its most important colonies and that they did put up a fight and that for a time at least it did look like America would lose. The colonists had a fight they believed in and though they were outclassed and outnumbered they persevered and won.>> Actually, the colonies were less imortant materially. The colonies offered less income to the Crown than some of the minute island in the Carribean. There was a great deal of fighting between England, France, and Spain in the islands. The wealth of the plantations (indigo) warranted this. More importantly to England was keeping the colonies. This backward area of the Empire wanted to throw off the rule of the King. Therefore they were challenging his authority and divine right to rule. Plus if the Colonies did break away other holdings would see it as a possible future. This monarchy aspect was even more so to Spain and France. Challenging the right of a monarchy was cause for much of their foot dragging. If England's monarchy could be challenged then so could theirs. This was later proved to be a reality. The American Revolution planted the seed of the French Revolution. The French of course had their own "tea taxes" that cultivated sentiment against the French Monarchy. As for support, the colonies were split. Roughly a third were for independence, a third wanted to remain loyal to England, and the final third did not care. <> I agree. The Hin are stereotypically a peacefull folk. However, they do get pushed around. Perhaps the tension builds until finally they cannot take it anymore. Hence they push back. IIRC there is a Hin holiday (Ierendi or the Shires ?) where the hin celebrate independence from Thyatis. Says something about it is unwise to be a Thyatian and in the kingdom when the holiday occurs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:32:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Morrow Subject: [MYSTARA] - Time Travel Artifacts (was Immortal Candidates) <> Thanks Mage! I like it. So now we've got the Sapphire of Protius and the gnomish relic from CM4 Earthshaker. Does anyone have any others? I'm sure someone out there has detailed the artifacts that Yav and Khronos used... - -III *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:42:53 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) In a message dated 98-02-21 20:25:07 EST, you write: << Haha! Well, one problem with England was taxes. We fought a war to relieve ourselves of unfair taxes and now look where we are. So, yes, that's irony if ever there was any.>> Actually the taxes were only a problem in that they were imposed without input from the colonies. Taxation without representation. The actual taxes were slight. After independance was gained, taxes were much more higher than those imposed by England. And as pointed out this tax continued to its present status of where a large chunk of my paycheck goes to the coffers of the US Treasuries. Ironic yes. But much of history is. Look at the Alamo. "Remember the Alamo" was a rallying call for US troops against Santa Anna. But if you look at the situation, the Alamo was not neccessary. Men and material were wasted for little if any gain. <> I have to agree. Hin are not like Americans past or present. Who are they like? No one, they are Hin. IMO America doesn't mirror any single KW nation. Sure you can pick out simularities but the overall picture is different. Speaking of taxes, if any nation faces ruin due to taxes it is Thyatis. Their tax is what 25%. Though still less than the 35-45% Americans get it still is a burden. With Alphatia weakened as a world power the tie of protection the Empire offers is diminished. Hence you may see bids for independance by various kingdoms. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:53:03 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves In a message dated 98-02-21 20:56:35 EST, you write: << Alex295@aol.com pontificated: >But a HE is attractive. More so to humans who see him/her as physically attractive. Afterall, the human parent must have been a looker as few elv= es >would bed down with a human and fewer would "do it" with a homely one. To elves, the attraction is less so. Prejudice for the "tainting of the elve= n >bloodlines" would surely make a HE less appealing to an elf. I'm not sure that would be the case. IMO, even the most attractive human would probably not very attractive to elves, so the elf are gererally attracted to some other aspect of human, and looks doesn't matter at all. Think it other way, if a human fall in love with an orc, it probably would not be due to the orcs look, no matter how attarctive that orc is among orcs. And I'm not sure elves would be so protactive of their bloodline. They might consider the HE a blessing as a rare product between an unlikely union. I agree that looks may not be the deciding factor. Truly the human in question would have to be an extrordinary example of his race. As such, it is reasonable that the human would be physically attractive as well. What's the old saying? "Looks may not be everything but they sure do help." And given that a person's appearance is the first thing the elf will see, that is the basis of its first impression of that person. You also have to remember that we are talking about a elves. If a beautiful human is considered so-so in elven eyes, then where does a plain human fall? That is why I limit mixing of eleven blood to humans. Humans are the closest race to an elf. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:01:36 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Sorry folks, With regards to: >From: "Galwylin" >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D >>From: Kaviyd@aol.com >>Here is a query for the D&D die-hards. I must admit that I personally >prefer >>D&D over AD&D, but I can see the "handwriting on the wall" as it were. The problem is this -- the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ was published in 1991, nearly seven years ago. It probably went out of print a couple of years later. So my question is this: >>Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going to introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be getting difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other >works To be more drastic: Have you ever heard what you say. Your comments on this topic sound like a dogma to me. YOU decide that this or that system is better and EVERYBODY has to follow. Sorry but think it over or else a matter-of-fact discussion is impossible for me. Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:02:31 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics In a message dated 98-02-21 21:03:25 EST, you write: << << You are assuming of course that all clerics must be able to cast spells. Remember that the ban on clerics is really the mages' attempt to regulate those who might challenge their own might. So the "Sheperds of Rad" could be considered backcountry clerics who don't have spells. Their words of wisdom and non-magical healing techniques make them beloved of many common people. >> Sorry, but the shepherds are mages. >> Jamuga Khan How about Shepards being mage followers of Rad. If needed Rad, (who rarely intervenes) could grant clerical spells. Sort of like in DragonLord Trilogy. Of course these spells will be simular in effect as mage spells. It would be a paradox to propose the art of magic as the supreme power then cast an obvious cleric spell. Now here is another paradox. How about true clerics of Rad. They could present themselves as mages and cast only cleric like spells. Then they could cast heal spells in private and utilize fake Heal potions to give the mage affect. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:01:36 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Dragons... Only one comment on Leroy´s posting: >From: "Leroy Van Camp III" >Subject: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Dragons... >... >Sorry, looks like someone has a system preferrence, and tries to justify it with non-arguments that have no logic or proof behind them. Just one word: THANKS. Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:03:53 EST From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar In a message dated 98-02-21 18:19:04 EST, you write: << All the dates in that product are given under the Thyatian calendar, which is good for the DM to have as a reference, but obviously, the Milenians themselves would not use it, since they've been in the Hollow World for longer than Thyatis existed (since 100 BC according to both the Hollow World boxed set and HWR3) >> A comment I might throw in here is that I thought I read at some point that the Thyatian calendar is based off either the Thothian calendar. Since the Thothians are descended from the Nithians, its probably safe to assume that they also used the same calendar. How does this affect the Milenians? Well, if I read the Hollow World supplement right, the Traldar are descended from the Nithians, and the Milenians originated from a Traldar clan. So In my opinion they would probably use the same basic calendar set up as the Thyatians (12 months of 28 days), although obviously with different names for the months. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:10:46 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-21 21:04:19 EST, you write: << << What minimum scores? >> INT 16 for magic-users, WIS 16 for clerics required in the HW.>> What about Alphatian HW mages below this minimum score that were mages while Alphatia was topside? Can it be reasonable that the Spell of Preservation preserved their spellcasting ability. But Alphatians coming of age but below the minimum are out of luck. Given Alphatian spell casting ingenuity, it is possible that they adopt means simular to that used by the wizards on Honor Island (Ierendi) to help its youngsters that are deficient in spell casting. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:12:18 EST From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-22 08:29:40 EST, you write: << SO PLEASE don´t tell me it´s AD&D. The situation about XP-hunting is (can be) more or less the same in OD&D and AD&D. Hope this problem could be put aside.>> Sorry if there is some confusion here, I probably should have made myself a little clearer, the comments I posted applied to both systems equally... I have DMed both and been guilty of many of the errors myself. I was just trying to point out a possible solution to the XP-hunting problem. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:42:27 -0700 From: "Joe Gerber" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia - -----Original Message----- From: Alex295@aol.com >In a message dated 98-02-21 21:04:19 EST, you write: >>INT 16 for magic-users, WIS 16 for clerics required in the HW.>> >What about Alphatian HW mages below this minimum score that were mages while This restriction only applies to creatures born on the Hollow World side, and only for as long as they remain in the Hollow World (eg, "Warrior" Elves who leave can become "Normal" (magic-using) Elves). Joe *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:00:02 EST From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Holier than thou Howdy folks. Long time no see. I had a few minutes to scroll through weeks (!) of accumulated MML posts and noticed some arguments about canon Mystara. Look, the campaign is what you want to make of it. Everyone is free to come up with their own version and bring their ideas here. I've done enough myself on DRAGON! In many ways, I'm no different than most people on this net. I enjoy the world of Mystara, and naturally love to "tinker" with it. I've had a golden opportunity to publish my views in a magazine, and help in the development of the game world itself... Some people want to say that my stuff is gospel (thanks) -- but there's no point in bludgeoning each other to death with this. If you don't like something I wrote, fine! Just skip that part. It IS just a game, remember!? :) Bruce Heard I love the term "net canon". Sounds like something gnomes would have invented. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:54:35 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! << This is all that I was worried about. It sounded to me like there was a movement afoot to get this list to put forth certain materials beyond those commercially published designated as being of higher status than any materials that might come later and thus conflict with the earlier material--even TSR didn't show that level of sacrosanct preservation with its own published material, cf Princess Ark vs. the original Known World. Some of us *did* have a "Great Khanate" worked out, after all... >> O.k., that means that from now strictly discipline is highly necessary when writing about own stuff. I really don't want to read mails in which the authors writes about anything as everybody had to know it. This thing with Mortal Identities a few weeks ago, for example, was really annoying. I have to apoligize too. One word: Even if I were one who voted for a standardization, I talked about a common base for discussions, a base which in no way had to be closed up and of course all this couldn't have any influence on single masters. As I told before, discipline is necessary. Don't take it too light, otherwise we will get a new flame war on the list sooner or later. I promise not to participate (and I hope I can keep this promise). Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:00:16 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-21 21:46:30 EST, you write: << Here is a query for the D&D die-hards. I must admit that I personally prefer D&D over AD&D, but I can see the "handwriting on the wall" as it were. The problem is this -- the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ was published in 1991, nearly seven years ago. It probably went out of print a couple of years later. So my question is this: Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going to introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be getting difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other works on Mystara would be even tougher to track down. So -- how do you "keep the faith alive"? >> Kaviyd has a point. The RC is hard to get ahold of. Originally I had all of Boxed Rules Sets plus several other material peices but I sold them. Since getting back into gaming, the RC has been the most difficult item to get. In fact, I have seen only a few offered for sale online and they were gone when I enquired about them. One company had several but had all of them purchased by the same person, probably a collector. As yet I have no RC which isn't a problem as I rarely play straight D&D. The Box Rules are out there and in abundance so to speak. I have the Red Box as well as the Classic D&D Box. I''ll probably opt to get the rest of the Box Series if the RC is out of reach for much longer. Gazs are another problem product. I have most of them. Only lack about three or four of them. Most notably Glantri and Alfheim. All of this goes back to Kaviyd's premise of losing D&D enthuseists as the product becomes ever increasingly difficult to find. This is a shame. I would hope that WotC would reissue some of the Gazs at least. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #101 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:09:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #102 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Sunday, February 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 102 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - Italian words Re: [MYSTARA] - Russian words Re: [MYSTARA] - Half Elf Profiles Re: [MYSTARA] - Half Elf Profiles Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar [none] Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:13:48 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-22 07:23:59 EST, Alex295@aol.com writes: >The thing that puzzles me is the general mindset of the Alphatian peoples. >Prior to the sinking, they were in a warlike "let's kick butt" attitude. Wouldn't that attitude still be present due to the Spell of Preservation. I know the Immortals alterred the general population's memory but wouldn't there be some lingering feelings of aggression. Though they do not know who they are ticked off at. The PWAs (especially the first one) describe some events that appear to have at least shaken up the Alphatian aggression (especially for Eriadna herself). As for not knowing who they were ticked off at, I think they would remember the Glantrians, Thyatians, etc. However, those who do not remember the outer world would imagine remembering a catastrophe that wiped out the rest of the world, revealing a new "land below". The biggest things that most Alphatians have been made to forget are what they used to see in the sky -- a moon and stars as well as a yellow sun that seemed to circle the earth once a day. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:19:05 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! At 07:15 PM 2/21/98 -0600, you wrote: >I had hoped I hadn't been so unclear than non-conan material wouldn't be non-Conan? Where did he come into this debate? :-) >I apologize to the list for contributing to this conan/non-canon debate and being unclear in the process too. Actually, I can picture Conan with a cannon. He'd probably pick the thing up and throw it at the enemy... Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:40:38 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar At 09:03 AM 2/22/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-21 18:19:04 EST, you write: ><< All the dates in that product >are given under the Thyatian calendar, which is good for the DM to have as a reference, but obviously, the Milenians themselves would not use it, since they've been in the Hollow World for longer than Thyatis existed (since 100 BC according to both the Hollow World boxed set and HWR3) >> >A comment I might throw in here is that I thought I read at some point that the Thyatian calendar is based off either the Thothian calendar. Since the Thothians are descended from the Nithians, its probably safe to assume that they also used the same calendar. How does this affect the Milenians? Well, if I read the Hollow World supplement right, the Traldar are descended from the Nithians, and the Milenians originated from a Traldar clan. So In my opinion they would probably use the same basic calendar set up as the Thyatians (12 months of 28 days), although obviously with different names for the months. That is pretty cool. Maybe the names aren't terribly different though...Thaumont=Thauxmontis for example? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:43:03 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves In a message dated 98-02-21 21:46:59 EST, you write: << > And I'm not sure elves >would be so protactive of their bloodline. They might consider the HE a blessing as a rare product between an unlikely union. <> One item, Sergei ommitted (okay I forgot to add it) was the Elven notion as seeing HEs as longlived humans. This can be a positive veiw. But I tended to want to paint the elves as wanting to get rid of what they see as a blemish to elvenkind. In particular, the immediate family of the parent elf. This would be more so in the case of female elves. Afterall the females are "someones little girl" whereas male elf could be explained as "boys will be boys" Subsequent generations of offspring by a HE was something I wished to avoid. <> The social disadvantages is something that I suspect no one has completley thought about. I briefly touched on it. How a HE is perceived by its environment should be a prime factor in his or her behaviour and attitudes. Perhaps, even more of Sergei's research papers will come to light. Then there are a couple of other HE profiles. One of which is quite sinister. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:51:04 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) ><< Haha! Well, one problem with England was taxes. We fought a war to >relieve ourselves of unfair taxes and now look where we are. So, yes, that's irony if ever there was any.>> >Actually the taxes were only a problem in that they were imposed without input from the colonies. Taxation without representation. The actual taxes were slight. Not true. To finance England's activities over the sea the taxes were continually being raised and new ones imposed. For instance the Stamp Tax was one of the lines in the sand. It was imposed on items that were produced in the colonies. And extremely unfair tax. After independance was gained, taxes were much more higher than those >imposed by England. I have to question this. I do not know any specific numbers however I do know that there was no Income Tax. At all. Period. So an exact comparison between then and now might be tough. However the number of taxes we suffer now and the difficulty in figuring out an overall percentage that we pay is straining population vs government relations. And as pointed out this tax continued to its present >status of where a large chunk of my paycheck goes to the coffers of the US Treasuries. The turn of this century is when most of our present taxes were imposed. >Ironic yes. But much of history is. Look at the Alamo. "Remember the Alamo" was a rallying call for US troops against Santa Anna. But if you look at the situation, the Alamo was not neccessary. Men and material were wasted for little if any gain. Politically speaking leaders look for anything as a rallying cry. ><> >I have to agree. Hin are not like Americans past or present. Who are they like? No one, they are Hin. IMO America doesn't mirror any single KW nation. Sure you can pick out simularities but the overall picture is different. But going back to the original statement: A listmember suggested that because the Hin were able to kick out the orcs they were psycho. I responded that the American colonists were not psycho for kicking out England. The comparison still holds true. But I never suggested the Hin were American colonists and I would never suggest that England is a bunch of orcs! >Speaking of taxes, if any nation faces ruin due to taxes it is Thyatis. Their tax is what 25%. Though still less than the 35-45% Americans get it still is a burden. With Alphatia weakened as a world power the tie of protection the Empire offers is diminished. Hence you may see bids for independance by various kingdoms. I agree. In my campaign (circa AC1000) it is already pointed out that this country is one of the highest taxed countries. Players find this out when they adventure in Thyatis and find it is one of the few that tax adventure income at all (and 25% is going to be noticed!). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:36:43 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Italian words On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 Daly wrote: >>This discussion has me rather interested, not least because I come from the ORKney Islands. I'm not sure what the root is there, but I'd sure like to find out. It would be fun if it was related to "orc". It's probably derived from Old Norse, though. >Fraid not. But it is featured in Beowulf! And Frankenstien. :-) Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:20:10 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Russian words On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >>Well, it's basically like 'a' in just about every other language than English (like, say, French of German). Also sort of like in British pronunciation of 'last'. >The last time I spoke to some Brits (about ten minutes ago), and they did not say "lust" when they meant "last". The vowel was a little lower than the American vowel, but it was certainly not that incredibly far mutated. Also of course it depends a lot on what accent of "British" English you are talking about. The a in "last" (at least in RP, aka "Queen's English") is probably a lower back "a", while I think the "a" in French is the lower front one. This is why the pronunciation guide given in X1 is not ideal, because it gives the correct pronunciation for a certain accent of American English, which a lot of the people on this list obviously do not know or speak. Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:55:01 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half Elf Profiles At 07:47 AM 2/22/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-21 17:08:15 EST, you write: ><< She >>displays an aversion to some foods. Red meats in particular cause her great discomfort and nausea. She admits to consuming only water and certain wines. Never meads or ales. >Hmm. I wonder why she has an aversion to red meats? Elves are noted huntsmen... >> >In Terenda's case red meats give her stomach problems. Gas, cramps, the runs, and vomiting I should not have asked! are often seen as a result of eating red meats such as beef. >Venison does not give her problems. Venison is lower in fat than beef. When you kill a deer and want deer burger meat the processor has to add beef fat to get it to clump together and cook right. I did not know they added fat. But I did know that it was a leaner meat. Pork, chicken, and fish are easily >digestable to her. Hence Terenda's problem probably lies with the fat content instead of the meat itself. BTW starchy foods often give her fits. And drinks such as beer have an adverse affect. How come she finds pork easy to digest? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:51:10 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half Elf Profiles In a message dated 98-02-22 12:36:19 EST, you write: << At 07:47 AM 2/22/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-21 17:08:15 EST, you write: ><< She >>displays an aversion to some foods. Red meats in particular cause her great >>discomfort and nausea. She admits to consuming only water and certain wines. >>Never meads or ales. >Hmm. I wonder why she has an aversion to red meats? Elves are noted huntsmen... >> >In Terenda's case red meats give her stomach problems. Gas, cramps, the runs, >and vomiting << I should not have asked!>> But you did ask. And so you received. are often seen as a result of eating red meats such as beef. >Venison does not give her problems. Venison is lower in fat than beef. When you kill a deer and want deer burger meat the processor has to add beef fat to >get it to clump together and cook right. <> Yes. When I was in school I used to earn some extra cash dressing deer for my buddy Charles's uncle. $10 a pop for about 60 deer a day between us two. Not bad. He owned a deer processing facility. The fat came from the local grocery stores' meat markets. >Pork, chicken, and fish are easily >digestable to her. Hence Terenda's problem probably lies with the fat content >instead of the meat itself. BTW starchy foods often give her fits. And drinks >such as beer have an adverse affect. How come she finds pork easy to digest? >> Blame it on her human half. I was waiting for someone to point to the pork. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:11:00 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) In a message dated 98-02-22 12:07:05 EST, you write: << ><< Haha! Well, one problem with England was taxes. We fought a war to >relieve ourselves of unfair taxes and now look where we are. So, yes, that's irony if ever there was any.>> >Actually the taxes were only a problem in that they were imposed without input >from the colonies. Taxation without representation. The actual taxes were slight. Not true. To finance England's activities over the sea the taxes were continually being raised and new ones imposed. For instance the Stamp Tax was one of the lines in the sand. It was imposed on items that were produced in the colonies. And extremely unfair tax.>>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:09:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #102 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com Never said it was fair. Taxation without representation was unfair. Just wanted to state that the amount of the tax was not a true factor. The tax itself was. And for the most part these taxes were mostly withdrawn after outcry from the colonies and a public and personal appearance before PArliment from one of the future founding fathers (Jefferson or Adams) >After independance was gained, taxes were much more higher than those imposed by England. <> I think taxes centered at the state level. But then again political power was in the hands of the states until slavery became an issue. Federal money was from Tarrifs and the expected counter Tarrifs from other countries. Taxes were high and events such as the Whiskey Rebellion showed the populaces disdain for them. Not sure if the Whiskey Tax was state or federal. I think federal. >Ironic yes. But much of history is. Look at the Alamo. "Remember the Alamo" was a rallying call for US troops against Santa Anna. But if you look at the situation, the Alamo was not neccessary. Men and material were wasted for little if any gain. Politically speaking leaders look for anything as a rallying cry.>> Yep wait till the Randel description is finished. Yes the Randel Armed Forces have a rallying cry. ><> >I have to agree. Hin are not like Americans past or present. Who are they like? No one, they are Hin. IMO America doesn't mirror any single KW nation. Sure you can pick out simularities but the overall picture is different. But going back to the original statement: A listmember suggested that because the Hin were able to kick out the orcs they were psycho. I responded that the American colonists were not psycho for kicking out England. The comparison still holds true. But I never suggested the Hin were American colonists and I would never suggest that England is a bunch of orcs!>> Didn't mean it to come out that way. I did take advantage of the thread to toss in my spill on how America cannot be compared directly and conclusively to any single KW nation. >Speaking of taxes, if any nation faces ruin due to taxes it is Thyatis. Their >tax is what 25%. Though still less than the 35-45% Americans get it still is a >burden. With Alphatia weakened as a world power the tie of protection the Empire offers is diminished. Hence you may see bids for independance by various kingdoms. I agree. In my campaign (circa AC1000) it is already pointed out that this country is one of the highest taxed countries. Players find this out when they adventure in Thyatis and find it is one of the few that tax adventure income at all (and 25% is going to be noticed!). >> I agree with your agreement. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:35:41 -0500 From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar Magesmiley@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-21 18:19:04 EST, you write: ><< All the dates in that product >are given under the Thyatian calendar, which is good for the DM to have as a reference, but obviously, the Milenians themselves would not use it, since they've been in the Hollow World for longer than Thyatis existed (since 100 BC according to both the Hollow World boxed set and HWR3) >> >A comment I might throw in here is that I thought I read at some point that the Thyatian calendar is based off either the Thothian calendar. Since the Thothians are descended from the Nithians, its probably safe to assume that they also used the same calendar. How does this affect the Milenians? Well, if I read the Hollow World supplement right, the Traldar are descended from the Nithians, and the Milenians originated from a Traldar clan. So In my opinion they would probably use the same basic calendar set up as the Thyatians (12 months of 28 days), although obviously with different names for the months. >-Mage I did consider this. However, the difficulty comes with the different methods of keeping track of time in the Hollow and Outer Worlds. The Milenians are now using the floating continents as a basis for their time keeping, so the calendar that they had in the outer world would have been dropped once arriving in the Hollow World. The outer world calendar of twelve months would make no sense anymore, since the twelve months are based on the phases of the moon, and the Milenians have forgotten what the moon is. Thus, the floating continents became the basis for the "new" months. According to PWA3, the only large floating continent that circles the sun 12 times every year is Alphatia, but of course, the Milenians would have developed their calendar long before Alphatia showed up there, so the calendar had to be based on different continents. The next best was Cassia which revolves 6 times a year (there is one that revolves 7 times a year, but this doesn't divide down further very easily). Admittedly, there could be some smaller floating continents that revolve twelve times a year, but it seemed unlikely that the Milenians would ignore the larger continents in favour of the smaller ones. Perhaps, the Cassians could be further divided into two parts based on the movements of a smaller floating continent that revolves the sun 12 times a year. With the Milenians' love of philosophy and science, I can easily see them developing a really complex calendar. Michael. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:59:10 -0500 From: Daly Subject: [none] I am currently running Rahasia and I noticed not only do the elves have an Arabic flavor but there is a mage tower nearby that is connected to the temple by some tunnels. I was recently thinking of having Rahasia connected to The Lost City (B4)by means of changing the tower's location possibly (a magic gate would have to be used I think) or maybe by just having the party coming across an "obscure reference" in this out of the way holdless temple. Whaddya think? Does anyone have any thoughts? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:09:02 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) >Politically speaking leaders look for anything as a rallying cry.>> >Yep wait till the Randel description is finished. Yes the Randel Armed Forces have a rallying cry. Oh no!...I suppose I should come with one for Bettelyn... >><> >>I have to agree. Hin are not like Americans past or present. Who are they like? No one, they are Hin. IMO America doesn't mirror any single KW nation. Sure you can pick out simularities but the overall picture is different. That is absolutely true. When I was in high school and the only stuff about Alphatia was what was written in CM1, I played that empire as if it were the British and the colony of Norwold as if it were the American colonies. Now of course the comparison is a little more difficult to draw given latter day descriptions of these countries. But I still play the government in Norwold as the less centralized post colonial America but even less centralized. The lords of Norwold are free to rule their dominions as they see fit. Even though Ericall has made slavery illegal in his kingdom, lords are free to legalize it within their own boundaries. Lords are also free to war on each other but they are expected to rally together in case Norwold itself is threatened. Alphatia imposes taxes on Norwold generally treats the place as a "bastard son". This is not a direct correlation but it was influenced somewhat. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:20:16 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D << Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going to introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be getting difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other works on Mystara would be even tougher to track down. So -- how do you "keep the faith alive"? >> The best way to get new people to start playing would be for WOTC to bring the world back alive. Of course, the biggest problem is convincing WOTC that it would be highly profitable to bring it back. The only way new people are playing Mystara is by people converting people....which is a process that's far too slow and still won't make the ends that WOTC needs to bring it back. There were a few attempts to bring it back though... the AD&D Karameikos and Glantri box sets....and the most recent was in the newest Ravenloft hard cover book that featured a new land with a darklord who hailed from good 'ol Mystara. I don't know exactly how well these products did, but it was obvious that they don't think D&D will work anymore, so all their last attempts have been AD&D. Or maybe it was because all of thier worlds go by one system...except for Mystara, so it would be easier to produce items if everything fell into the same system. Either way, the products obviously didn't make enough of an impact or have enough of a response to make them revive the world completely. Either way, it doesn't look like it's gonna be too easy to get our world back online. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:47:32 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D << But speaking of dragons, it should be pointed out that Ravenloft is bare of dragons. Aside from a reference to a small red dragon in the novel "Knight of the Black Rose" no other dragons are to be found. BTW IMO RL is one of the other AD&D settings with a substance based background. Very well done. >> i agree. Ravenloft really has shown the aspect of how creatures without billions of HD and special abilities can still make the toughest adversaries. There are even darklords that are level zero. Dragonlance was good, but i think it was overdone especially with that new dragon that could capture a great wyrm black dragon in its maw. I don't really think it's a question of AD&D vs OD&D though. Regardless of what the source books say, it always ends up to the DM as to how many of whatever creatures exist or will be encountered. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:47:23 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar At 18.09 21/02/98 -0500, Michael Ray Johnson wrote: >MILENIAN CALENDAR >One SLEEP is the period between the time when someone goes to sleep and the next time that same person goes to sleep. It is equivalent to one day on the outer world. One CASSIAN is the amount of time it takes the floating continent, Cassia, to make one complete revolution around the sun. There are 56 sleeps in a Cassian. >One DEMICIRCLE is the amount of time it takes the floating continent, Tama, to make one complete revolution around the sun. There are 168 sleeps, or 3 Cassians in one demicircle. One CIRCLE is the amount of time it takes the floating continent, Kjell, to make one revolution around the sun. There are 336 sleeps, 6 Cassians, or 2 demicircles in one circle. BTW: did anyone notice that PWA3 gives path and revolution times for a lot of floating continents, but not for Alphatia (probably the most important floating continent)? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:37:20 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! At 15.05 21/02/98 -0000, you wrote: Thanks Leroy! I was just thinking of asking you to stop this "net-canon" discussion. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:03:58 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics At 09.02 22/02/98 EST, Alex295@aol.com wrote: >Now here is another paradox. How about true clerics of Rad. They could present >themselves as mages and cast only cleric like spells. Then they could cast heal spells in private and utilize fake Heal potions to give the mage affect. Nice trick, but do you really think there could be true clerics of Rad? Assuming that Rad is worshipped only in Glantri, it would be normal to think that a cleric of Rad should be a Glantrian... or at least someone who lives in Glantri. On the other hand a Glantrian, especially one who strongly believes in Rad, would never become a cleric, because he thinks that clerics are "bad" and inferior to mages. Don't you think so? Just my opinion. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:05:46 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) A few minutes ago I wrote: >BTW: did anyone notice that PWA3 gives path and revolution times for a lot of floating >continents, but not for Alphatia (probably the most important floating continent)? Obviously I was wrong! Alphatia _is_ there, but some floating continents are missing: the gnomish floating continent of Valoin-Flaemeker and Ashmorain, the floating continent introduced in HWA2. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #102 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 02:55:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #103 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, February 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 103 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Mystara Dragons [was Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D] Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Holier than thou Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail [MYSTARA] - Re: Mystara Dragons Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail [MYSTARA] - Dragons of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - Holier than thou Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:24:03 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >I am currently running Rahasia and I noticed not only do the elves have an Arabic flavor but there is a mage tower nearby that is connected to the temple by some tunnels. >I was recently thinking of having Rahasia connected to The Lost City (B4)by means of changing the tower's location possibly (a magic gate would have to be used I think) or maybe by just having the party coming across an "obscure reference" in this out of the way holdless temple. >Whaddya think? Does anyone have any thoughts? well first of all i would think you would need to have a really vigorous discussion as to the placement and background of B7. i have heard that it is supposed to be in eastern alfheim but there is something strange about this ... the Rahib seems like he could be Sindian or Hulean rather than Alasiyan (maybe I'm wrong about this) and the Siswa definitely seem like a non-alfheim cultural element. i always wondered if it ought not to be in a different time period entirely, like X6. but these are only thoughts; i have no clear sense of whether they are sound or not, as i don't have B7 accessible right now. anyway let me know what you think of because it could be helpful to those of us who are working on the history of Cynidicea, the Doulakki, Tuma, and the Salonikos Confederacy. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:31:54 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! I think everyone agrees that the canon debate ended up accomplishing nothing but giving us all a chance to voice our thoughts on what we see as canon. While interesting to some (and irritating to others) it was totally off topic. The only real official canon we have is from TSR and that doesn't have to be followed at all! Here's what I'd like to see (and it will need some type of leadership)... more net projects for Mystara. There are some great ideas from people but they sometimes get overlooked because they just consist of a post here or there. If no one collects them then they're gone from any newcomers to the list or to those that don't have a chance to give them the attention they deserve because of time constraints. The recent drinks of Mystara, Jenni's B1 posts, and Matthew's Cynidicea city are recent examples of lost treasures to those that didn't receive (or just joined the list) these items. Also, with net projects we'd have more than one person working on a topic and if some reason arose that kept one from finishing, the work done wouldn't be lost. I know this has been proposed before but it never seemed to go anywhere (like the recent idea of developing an online city) because we don't have a director to keep track of who is working on what. That also keeps those that would like to contribute by not letting them know there is a project in progress that they could join in. There are so many creative people here that their work shouldn't be read through over lunch and lost because of forgetfulness to save a message. We already have an almanac team formed but there have been some recent ideas that need to be expanded on. The differences of the Mystarian races would be great to see. If a whole country seems to daunting to some, how about just a section? I know nothing about the lands of the Callarii elves in Karameikos even though I've used them before and the same for other clans. What is it really like for a non-mage in Glantri? I've never seen a good description of Highforge area. Taking Jenni's idea about B1, how about the other modules? Anyway to give them closer ties to the area they were said to take place at in the Expert set or expand on? The ceremonies of the different churches would be nice. Are they the same thing with different names in different countries? I also think that we should stay away from rules system until we're able to show how Mystara would work under AD&D without sacrificing any of the idiosyncrasies it possesses. Just some random thoughts. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:42:15 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Mystara Dragons [was Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D] Alex295@aol.com wrote: >I think what happened to dragons in ad&d was that their frequency was increased for the power gamers. Look at some of the Settings. Dragons out the wahzoo. Bodies of dragons defending a city. Another body supplimenting the attackers. >It is somewhat ironic that a system named "advanced dungeons and dragons" has deteriorated and even fostered power gaming by catering and fostering players to expect a dragon in every venture. >More complicated and dice based game mechanics is one thing, but to sacrifice the core of an adventure, setting material, is almost shameful. That is one of reasons for my holding Mystara with such fondness. What other setting can boast such a well thought out and followed historical and substance basis. That is what I think sets us Mystarans apart, the details. I think the problem isn't the number of dragons really. It's DMs inability to play the dragons correctly. I've heard quite a few people telling about the time their 5th level party killed one (sometimes it was a 1st level party!). To me, these dragons could not have been played anywhere near their real potential. I know that a party can get lucky but the price is usually very high. If my players hear of a dragon in the area, they better believe it is there for something besides being slayed. If they choose to try and kill it (they have before, hehe), I play that dragon as the most crafty, sneaky, unfair beast they've ever met. Attacking a dragon with low levels is just a way to get into a bard's song if you ask me. As another idea of a net.project, why don't we develope some dragons like the recent Ed Greenwood articles in DRAGON magazine? Let's steal.. er, borrow that idea and give some personality to some Mystarain dragons. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:01:30 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Alex295@aol.com wrote: >But then again, America has always been observed as a curious if not different sort of nation. It's part of our national character. Heck we have an international crowd here on the List. I am sure more than one will attest to our sanity :-) >Mystara wise such perceptions could explain the differing veiws of different nations by different peoples. I think one characteristic of America is our materialism. This might be because we were a young nation when the Industrial Revolution (arguably the most important revolution in our history) began since it was only after the Civil War that we began to act like a nation and only after WW1 that we became an important nation in world affairs. Really, we're still a young nation compared to the European power nations. And if you go by government change, then we're reborn every 4-8 years. The Mystarain nations aren't allowed to enter the industrial age because of the changes it made in the real world. But eventually, they will reach that point and then what will happen? I ask this because it's not really clear just how backward the lands of the Known World are. Darokin seems to be entering a Renaissance but Thyatis seems to be a Roman or Byzantium Empire crumbling leaving those between as a toss-up on what age they are in. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:39:44 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Inconu@aol.com wrote: >There were a few attempts to bring it back though... the AD&D Karameikos and Glantri box sets....and the most recent was in the newest Ravenloft hard cover book that featured a new land with a darklord who hailed from good 'ol Mystara. Those box sets were actually an attempt to keep the setting since the D&D rules were killed. The little information in Ravenloft and Planescape are helping to keep the setting 'out there' but unless they provide more than a blurb, there's not going to be much interest in the origin of the statement. >I don't know exactly how well these products did, but it was obvious that they don't think D&D will work anymore, so all their last attempts have been AD&D. Or maybe it was because all of thier worlds go by one system...except for Mystara, so it would be easier to produce items if everything fell into the same system. Either way, the products obviously didn't make enough of an impact or have enough of a response to make them revive the world completely. I believe the Domains of Dread book is a success. The question is how many will want to know more about the Mystara reference. Remember, many people don't know that Mystara and the Known World are the same thing. >Either way, it doesn't look like it's gonna be too easy to get our world back online. I very much agree. If we could only get them to at least release something, if only a 32 page module, that they would have a sales figure on to gauge how well another product would do and then proceed from there. It incredibly hard to get a discontinued world a new lease without us constantly bothering them about it the way Greyhawk fans did. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:43:29 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holier than thou Ambreville@aol.com wrote: >Howdy folks. Long time no see. Yes! It has been a while! >itself... Some people want to say that my stuff is gospel (thanks) -- but there's no point in bludgeoning each other to death with this. If you don't I think I was one that said your work is gospel. Just remember not to say different. Remember in the real world, when a prophet starts spreading dogma that conflicts with previous teachings, they burn them at the stake and make them a saint - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:54:57 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Matthew Levy pontificated: >well first of all i would think you would need to have a really vigorous discussion as to the placement and background of B7. i have heard that it is supposed to be in eastern alfheim but there is something strange about this ... the Rahib seems like he could be Sindian or Hulean rather than Alasiyan (maybe I'm wrong about this) and the Siswa definitely seem like a non-alfheim cultural element. Or perhaps you can just change a few names in the module to fit it to whereever you want. IIRC, the module was originally a one-shot tournment adventure, and later adopted into a generic D&D module. Thus, it was never intended to be place in Mystara. So, I don't think there are much need to figure out exactly where the adventure suppose to take place. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:36:51 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Mystara Dragons << I've heard quite a few people telling about the time their 5th level party killed one (sometimes it was a 1st level party!). To me, these dragons could not have been played anywhere near their real potential. >> In the Council of Wyrms box set, there is one adventure that starts off right away as a hatchling emergeing from its shell, and instantly there are 2d6 ogres trying to steal eggs and noticeing you emerge from your shell....they attack. The situation is not too big of a problem for the hatchling to dispatch them. Using this example, think of what a juvenille (most commonly encountered) dragon is as an enemy...Galwylin was right...it's how the DM plays the dragon, and if you put yourself into the dragon's shoes.....it's not too hard to dispatch parties of heroes...especially those of lower levels. Only the DM has the power to make the players respect any creature. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:55:55 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail doesn't mean we can't try to fit it in. that's part of the challenge of developing mystara on the net. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Matthew Levy pontificated: >>well first of all i would think you would need to have a really vigorous discussion as to the placement and background of B7. i have heard that it is supposed to be in eastern alfheim but there is something strange about this ... the Rahib seems like he could be Sindian or Hulean rather than Alasiyan (maybe I'm wrong about this) and the Siswa definitely seem like a non-alfheim cultural element. >Or perhaps you can just change a few names in the module to fit it to whereever you want. IIRC, the module was originally a one-shot tournment adventure, and later adopted into a generic D&D module. Thus, it was never intended to be place in Mystara. So, I don't think there are much need to figure out exactly where the adventure suppose to take place. >-- >John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:29:43 -0600 From: "Galwylin" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Dragons of Mystara Here's one of my dragons I like to have my players encounter (usually nev= er knowing he is a dragon). This is only a rough sketch and I hope you enjo= y him. VALAMAERAEN THE BRONZE Valamaeraen makes his home along the coast of Karameikos below Vandevicsn= y Village. He keeps a sea cave as a lair in which he rarely spends much ti= me and so keeps little treasure. The cave is protected by the natural tides of the Dread Sea. It is only open during very low tide. He thinks of it more as a summer home that he returns to contemplate his next project. H= is most used form to polymorph into is a gnome named Val Sticklenose and is usually found in human and demi-human settlements. Val Sticklenose isn't unusual except for the bronze hair. He enjoys company, especially talkative company and immediately engages in it with a willing party. He once ran into a gnome from Highforge in Mirros while walking the streets = as Val and they spent the better part of a day engage in conversation. This lead to him taking part on the Gnome Caravan to Highforge where he spent the better part of a year with the little people. He is a valued friend = to the halflings of the Five Shires and recently helped them during their campaign against the Baron of Black Eagle Barony and was the one that suggested that they abduct King Stefan to see their plight. He keeps as small house in Vandevicsny Village and has rented many rooms in inns alon= g the coast. He is currently traveling with a party of adventuring elves i= n the eastern wood of Karameikos. He can also be found in the Duchy of Terentias where he attempts to romance a female bronze making her home on the island. Valamaeraen in dragon form is 145 feet long from nose to tail tip. He is just entering his fourth century of life making him an old dragon. His favorite spells to memorize are sleep, wall of fog, ESP, misdirection, non-detection, cure light wounds. He is one of the calmer individuals of=a party and is fascinated by all races. - ------------------------------------------------------------- This has been a Galwylin=A9 Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:32:00 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! In a message dated 98-02-22 19:22:01 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >I also think that we should stay away from rules system until we're able >to show how Mystara would work under AD&D without sacrificing any of the idiosyncrasies it possesses. Just some random thoughts. Excellent idea. D&D and AD&D are similar enough to make conversions between the two possible, and it does appear that Mystara can be made to work as an AD&D setting with relatively minor adjustments (some of which were caught in the AD&D products for Mystara, but many more were not). I posted the suggestion about handling level limits earlier -- I may post some other ideas later on. To provide some direction for where to start -- which aspects of Mystara under D&D seem most difficult to convert or adapt to AD&D? The worst area that I am aware of is the handling of ability scores, especially for Immortal level characters -- adapting Immortals to AD&D as characters is possible but would involve a lot of work. Are there other areas that suffer from similar problems? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:38:56 -0500 (EST) From: StarHawk Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holier than thou On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 Ambreville@aol.com wrote: >I love the term "net canon". Sounds like something gnomes would have invented. And anytime someone talks about it too much they get too tangled up for they're own good? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:39:38 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >To provide some direction for where to start -- which aspects of Mystara under D&D seem most difficult to convert or adapt to AD&D? The worst area that I am aware of is the handling of ability scores, especially for Immortal level characters -- adapting Immortals to AD&D as characters is possible but would involve a lot of work. Are there other areas that suffer from similar problems? Yes. The Immortals are probably the hardest to convert to AD&D because as far as I know there are nothing like them in AD&D. The easiest way to go with them would just to say they are powers (gods) and go from there eliminating those in other settings to avoid conflict and giving them specific areas of concerns that aren't conflicting (the whole greater, lesser, demi-god ordeal). Then making it impossible for mortals to attain mortality. Personally, I hope there's a different way to handle them. I can't think of any other conversions that would be a problem. More a matter of handling. Half elves, paladins and druids are some that I don't particularly care for from the AD&D PHB. Half elves are being or been addressed but one change I'd like to see is that paladins don't receive their ability without a period of proving themselves to their church. Also, which Immortals would have paladins. Lawful, yes. But all lawful Immortals? What about those that don't agree on everything? Will their paladins ever fight another Immortal's paladin in effort to promote their ideas? Should only a few lawful Immortals have paladins? Or maybe the Immortal aren't involved in calling paladins, maybe it's just certain churches. Would the church of Traladara have them? The Church of Karameikos (which branched off from the Church of Thyatis) would probably have them since the original church supported fighting forces in Thyatis. The conversion of the Immortals might have a effect on them. Druids are much better handled by the AD&D PHB since it's only in the higher levels that they begin to gain granted powers. I think it's 7th level before he can attempt to shape change with the lower levels only granting ability to identify plants, speak with animals and pass undetectable through forests. One class that would be tough to convert to AD&D is the mystic. 1st Edition used to have monks but they never were worked out well and I haven't heard any praises of the monk kits. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:58:43 -0500 (EST) From: StarHawk Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >>To provide some direction for where to start -- which aspects of Mystara under D&D seem most difficult to convert or adapt to AD&D? The worst area that I am aware of is the handling of ability scores, especially for Immortal level characters -- adapting Immortals to AD&D as characters is possible but would involve a lot of work. Are there other areas that suffer from similar problems? >Yes. The Immortals are probably the hardest to convert to AD&D because as far as I know there are nothing like them in AD&D. The easiest way to go with them would just to say they are powers (gods) and go from there eliminating those in other settings to avoid conflict and giving them specific areas of concerns that aren't conflicting (the whole greater, lesser, demi-god ordeal). Then making it impossible for mortals to attain mortality. Personally, I hope there's a different way to handle them. Personally I ignored AD&D's descriptions of Gods or Powers and use the D&D version completely. Since the Immortal's statistics are basically irrelevant until players become immortal they don't really matter, and once player's do all the rules have changed (in game as well as out) any way so you can use the D&D rules without any problems. If you wanted you could basically replace the rules for Immortals with any system you liked without affecting the game up to Immortality in any way. >I can't think of any other conversions that would be a problem. More a matter of handling. Half elves, paladins and druids are some that I don't particularly care for from the AD&D PHB. Half elves are being or been addressed but one change I'd like to see is that paladins don't receive their ability without a period of proving themselves to their church. Also, which Immortals would have paladins. Lawful, yes. But all lawful Immortals? What about those that don't agree on everything? Will their paladins ever fight another Immortal's paladin in effort to promote their ideas? Should only a few lawful Immortals have paladins? Or maybe the Immortal aren't involved in calling paladins, maybe it's just certain churches. Would the church of Traladara have them? The Church of Karameikos (which branched off from the Church of Thyatis) would probably have them since the original church supported fighting forces in Thyatis. The conversion of the Immortals might have a effect on them. I don't think all Lawful Immortals would have paladins. Atruaghin for example should not have paladins, nor would Diamond or Terra. They attitude of the Immortal doesn't fit that of the standard AD&D paladin. On the other hand Immortals like Tarastia, Petra, and Halav are good examples of Immortals who would have paladins. I also don't think the immortal needs to be Lawful to have paladins, though the alignment restriction should still apply. Vanya for example should have paladins, Diulanna, Ixion (esp. in Narveaz), Frey and Freya, Thor, and even Benekander should possibly have paladins. All of them deal with mortals in ways that would make them desire devoted, self-reliant examples of how to act. Benekander because he'd want people to give an example of how Immortals can still interact with the world and not interfere. As for the Church of Traladara, no I don't think it should have paladins, it not the kind of religion that calls out for shining examples of the faith, its a church for common people, and I would expect it to want common people as its examples to others. The Church of Karameikos (and hence Thyatis as well) seems very much like the kind of church that would want the classic "knight in shining armor". I also think the Church of Narvaez, and maybe even the Heldannic Knights should have paladins. >>Druids are much better handled by the AD&D PHB since it's only in the >higher levels that they begin to gain granted powers. I think it's 7th level before he can attempt to shape change with the lower levels only granting ability to identify plants, speak with animals and pass undetectable through forests. I agree that druids work well as they are, most of the AD&D classes fit well as replacements for the D&D ones. >One class that would be tough to convert to AD&D is the mystic. 1st Edition used to have monks but they never were worked out well and I haven't heard any praises of the monk kits. The monk kits are just priests with martial arts abilities. I figured something as close as possible to the mystic using Skills and Powers rules and you can almost come up with the Mystic starting with the Priest class (and hence the same XP table). So I think that it should be fairly balanced if you allow them exactly as they are in D&D, same XP and abilities, etc. Give them the same Saving Throws as in D&D, Fighter's Hit Rolls, d8 hit dice, and consider them as a paladin or ranger for purposes of weapon specialization. As for allowed magic items I'd say any non-protectvie items usable by fighters or thieves, count them as fighters for all the books or whatever that need to know what class you are. One note: mystics do not get the fighters multiple attacks per round, they use the same number of attacks as they do barehanded with melee weapons, I don't know how this should affect specialization, perhaps the easiest is to not allow them to specialize at all? After all they do a decen amount of damage with the fists at higher levels anyway. And they should never be allowed to specialize in martial arts. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:55:14 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) StarHawk wrote: >Personally I ignored AD&D's descriptions of Gods or Powers and use the D&D version completely. Since the Immortal's statistics are basically irrelevant until players become immortal they don't really matter, and once player's do all the rules have changed (in game as well as out) any way so you can use the D&D rules without any problems. If you wanted you could basically replace the rules for Immortals with any system you liked without affecting the game up to Immortality in any way. I wonder about Immortals mainly if the party ever goes planehopping (ie Planescape). There's never been anything that I remember about Mystara being cut off from other primes like Athas (Dark Sun) so they should encounter the same planes a traveler from Toril would but I'm not sure because of the question of just what exactly are the Immortals and where do they dwell. Planescape mentions Mystara (saying that Mystarians believe themselve the center of the universe) but it doesn't touch on exactly what the Immortals home are or where. I've got a copy of the Planescape sourcebook On Hallow Ground and hopes it expands on the Immortals more. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 02:05:12 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) To amplify on an area I mentioned in an earlier post: One feature that distinguishes Mystara from most other AD&D settings is that all characters have the potential to reach Immortality. One prerequisite for Immortality is the ability to reach high level (level 30 or so) in at least one class. To support this capability, the level limit rules need to be re-interpreted for Mystaran demi-humans. What we should do is this: divide the level that a demi-human character is attempting to reach by his maximum level in that class and round up. The result is a multiplier to be applied to the XPs required to reach the next level. To take the worst example from the standard race/class combinations, let us refer to the Halfling Cleric, who has a level limit of 8. Up to level 8, this character advances normally. However, advancing to levels 9-16 requires twice the normal amount of XPs. Levels 17-24 require 3x the normal amount of XPs, and levels 25+ require 4x the normal XPs. Thus, while it is extremely difficult for a Halfling Cleric to reach level 30, it is not impossible. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:55:07 +0200 (EET) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts Inconu wrote: >But...wouldn't you think it would be kinda weird when you see someone in front of you and they're not radiating heat?? It would probably be much easier to see considering how rare it is to see someone not radiating heat.. Thats the fun part of it: You just wont see that someone! The Infravision is described as showing the differences in the temperature. Usually this is pictured so that warmer shows red, colder blue. A living thing, radiating heat would show red while the wall behind would show blue or pale blue in a cave. Then if you have an undead skeleton, that does not generate warmth, it would show the same blue as the surroundings, and You could not see it with the same backround. Its like puttind a peace of white paper in front of white wall. Propably, if you really try you can separate it from the backround, but its hard. And that how it should be with the undead too. When a player is first being warned of the precence of something 'invisible' I do give him limitred possibilities to follow the movements ov the invisible thing. You know, sounds, airmovements, very small resolutions etc. He would be fighting with a lot of minuses though. Then, if there is something warmer behinh the undead it does show of cource, as it blocks the wiew to the warmth. Furthermore as it is pointed out, the infravision can not be used in normal light, so it would propably not work to identify anyone as an undead in normal day-to-day workings. >>Perhaps vampire spellcasters and liches have a "put out heat" spell. >I really doubt creatures as powerfull as vamps and liches will waste the time creating a spell like that and actually using it every time they go out at night. Well, Morphail just might do that, but i dont think that most undeads would bother. But then again, liches (if one can speak about them in general, as they shoul IMHO allways wary a bit) might generate some warmth themselves should they want to. There is no reason to think that these magic-invested monsters would be punished with the coldness of the grave. In fact I could easily believe them to be wery warm even hot to infravision. And still they could have a 'death cold grip' when touching a mortal... Actually once in a game of mine an elf did find himself in a bit of trouble, as he was the pointman of the troupe, walking just outside the light the others were using. It was a dark night in a forest, the leaves hiding even the light of the stars. Suddenly he felt something moving beside him, and heard the woosh of air as a scimitar hit him in the shoulder. He could only see the warmth of his own blood smearing the scimitar as it raised again to strike him again. Yelling his lung out to get help and some light he lunged his sword to where he logically ecpected the assailant to be, just missing the skeleton by the width of some flesh. Down came the scimitar again, the blood spilling all around. Weakly the elf backed, trying to keep his sword in between the now visible scimitar and himself. Suddenly, he noted something peculiar. Some of the blood he had spilled was moving after him. In the ground, a pool of blood was suddenly covered with something as cold as the ground, and a shadow, slightly colder than the backround covered the tree which was still cooling after a sunny day. The bleeding elf raised his sword, knowing that this would be his last chance, with the help still running somewhere behind his vision. He stroke with all the strenght he still had, hitting something hard, now broken. Something flew in the air, hitting a tree and bouncing twice in the ground. His friends found him sitting in the ground, holding a skeletar head, with the rest of the undead still standing over him, ready to strike, but unable to... Pasi P.S. It was nice thought someone had about the coldblooded creatures, I had overlooked the possibilities it gives... Evil grin :) - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #103 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:54:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #104 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, February 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 104 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - Why the authoritarianism? Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins [MYSTARA] - Rockhome Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: Mystara Dragons [was Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D] Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:20:56 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Gordon McCormick wrote: >Yup, always wondered about that. Hmm, well it could still be he doesn't have any clerics in Glantri, but perhaps a few on Pandius to tend his estate or something? Or on some other plane? Or in the Hollow World? Or his (brother is it? Simon?) that's a cleric, is actually a cleric of Rad, and the only one in existence... I always thought that Rad's "clerics" are Shepherds, who are actually wizards (GAZ3). The special powers from WotI apply to *them*. At least that's how I see it. And Etienne's brother Simon is a cleric of Razud (as mentioned in Mark of Amber, which despite being AD&D, I consider canon). ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:24:07 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 Alex295@aol.com wrote: >Oh yes, if an elf can see an undead, then what about Princesses Carnelia and Carlotina. Now Brannart is secluded away doing his lich thing. But Morphail is a fairly visible (at least at night) Prince. Wouldn't the two elf Princesses spill the proverbial beans on him. Surely, mages as powerful as Brannart and Morphail shoul be able to use magic to put up a little heat around themselves... Anyway, since I presume the elf princesses mostly see Morphail in well-lit areas, their infravision is of no use. Of course, if they saw him in total darkness... *wink-wink* ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:30:15 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why the authoritarianism? The reason to have any canon is to keep one's campaign consistant with that canon (optionally, of course). This makes it easier to use future canon (assuming the source of the canon follows canon, of course). When TSR was in the OD&D/Known World business, to the extent that they followed their own canon, also following that canon made it easier to integrate their new material into an ongoing campaign. With TSR gone and not expected to return, the canon to follow (if any) is that of some other prolific publisher (I nominate Mystaros) whose material is useful and who seems likely to produce more usable "stuff". >I am still trying to figure out why some folks on this list are on such an authoritarian head-trip. There is no need to designate material as being "net canon" or "canon" at all. We all know or can find out what has been published by TSR and by members of this list and other folks. What solid justification can there be for givine quasi-religious status to some of it as "canonical"? How is this "canon" to be enforced? What coercive powers does the enforcing body have? What means are to be taken to squelch heretics who don't agree with Holy Canon? Is it all nothing more than ego masturbation? >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:22:21 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! << One class that would be tough to convert to AD&D is the mystic. 1st Edition used to have monks but they never were worked out well and I haven't heard any praises of the monk kits. One adaption they came out with was the Complete Book on Ninjas. Personally i liked the Mystic from AD&D more, but a combo of both, and getting rid of some aspects of one and adapting parts of the Ninja book, might be a good idea for a replacement. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:27:45 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << Should only a few lawful Immortals have paladins? Or maybe the Immortal aren't involved in calling paladins, maybe it's just certain churches. Would the church of Traladara have them? >> Just remember how rare paladins really are. If there are any in the Known World, then there's probably not too many of them. I agree that they should have granted powers like the druids of ad&d. Something at 3rd and 7th or whatever. Either way, i do believe that any religion should have the possibility to have paladins. Paladins shouldn't just be for goodly characters in my opinion. I think that a true warrior that has more faith in even Thanatos then some priests have....should get granted powers. Maybe instead of the immunites and protection from evil radius, they can obtain some of the unique abilities priests of certain Immortals gain. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1998 09:39:34 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - Rockhome Can anybody tell me about Rochome? There are clans? Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:38:35 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Those box sets were actually an attempt to keep the setting since the D&D rules were killed. The little information in Ravenloft and Planescape are helping to keep the setting 'out there' but unless they provide more than a blurb, there's not going to be much interest in the origin of the statement. IIRC there was also a Shadow Elf character in Faces of Sigil accessory for Planescape. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:57:33 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) At 12:55 AM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >StarHawk wrote: >>Personally I ignored AD&D's descriptions of Gods or Powers and use the D&D version completely. Since the Immortal's statistics are basically irrelevant until players become immortal they don't really matter, and once player's do all the rules have changed (in game as well as out) any way so you can use the D&D rules without any problems. If you wanted you could basically replace the rules for Immortals with any system you liked without affecting the game up to Immortality in any way. >I wonder about Immortals mainly if the party ever goes planehopping (ie Planescape). There's never been anything that I remember about Mystara being cut off from other primes like Athas (Dark Sun) so they should encounter the same planes a traveler from Toril would but I'm not sure because of the question of just what exactly are the Immortals and where do they dwell. Planescape mentions Mystara (saying that Mystarians believe themselve the center of the universe) but it doesn't touch on exactly what the Immortals home are or where. I've got a copy of the Planescape sourcebook On Hallow Ground and hopes it expands on the Immortals more. If you go by the original Immortals set then the multiverse of Mystara is totally seperate from the multiverse of AD&D. Different rules apply. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1998 10:04:06 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D I'll try to be clear. When I wrote the first mail I said that I just looking for opinions. Now It seems to be a kind of "war". I don't want to be involved in this "war". Just an opinion: TSR made a game and latter they made another one. This last game have so much rules so the DM can't give the game is own style. What rules? Ok. here you have some: 1. The details of where do you put each one of things you have. 2. If you have 18 if strength you rol a percent dice for extra. So if you have 18 in strength and 00 in the percent, you finaly have a +6 in damage and +8 for hit (or something alike). 3. So many characters, like the berseker (if I wrote it in the correct form). I personaly thinks it's a very uninspiring character. I don't know well the AD&D so I can't say more. In any case, I think there are good things in AD&D but I personaly prefer D&D. I hope this e-mail was clear, because there are some who don't want to understand me and some who really don't understand (I don't know english very well). Thanks Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:08:20 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail At 06:54 PM 2/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >Matthew Levy pontificated: >>well first of all i would think you would need to have a really vigorous discussion as to the placement and background of B7. i have heard that it is supposed to be in eastern alfheim but there is something strange about this ... the Rahib seems like he could be Sindian or Hulean rather than Alasiyan (maybe I'm wrong about this) and the Siswa definitely seem like a non-alfheim cultural element. >Or perhaps you can just change a few names in the module to fit it to whereever you want. Only if you don't wish to go with canonical suggestions (isn't that a funny term?? "canonical suggestions") IIRC, the module was originally a one-shot >tournment adventure, and later adopted into a generic D&D module. You indeed remember correctly. It was placed in Alfhiem by either the module editors or some later canonical source. >Thus, it was never intended to be place in Mystara. As I recall the tournament rules used D&D rules. So, I don't >think there are much need to figure out exactly where the adventure suppose to take place. Well there is if one wants to run it in a campaign. I mean if you're going to run the module it has to take place somewhere...:) >-- >John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:19:51 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] >I think one characteristic of America is our materialism. Explain what you mean by "materialism". For instance, is America unique in materialistic goals? This might be >because we were a young nation when the Industrial Revolution (arguably the most important revolution in our history) began since it was only after the Civil War that we began to act like a nation What did we act like before the Civil War? and only after >WW1 that we became an important nation in world affairs. Mainly because of our own choice. The Monroe Doctrine. Really, we're >still a young nation compared to the European power nations. True. And if you >go by government change, then we're reborn every 4-8 years. But it is not a "government change". Elections produce new leaders in the same government. >The Mystarain nations aren't allowed to enter the industrial age because of the changes it made in the real world. Of course one could argue that dwarves and gnomes are in the Industrial Age. But their industries don't really produce anything practical enough or in large enough quantities. But eventually, they will >reach that point and then what will happen? I ask this because it's not really clear just how backward the lands of the Known World are. I think we have to assume a reluctance to invent too much. The lessons of Blackmoor are remembered by the elves and the elves aren't likely to let the humans forget too quickly. >Darokin seems to be entering a Renaissance but Thyatis seems to be a Roman or Byzantium Empire crumbling leaving those between as a toss-up on what age they are in. Darokin is an innovative young country much like America was. Not that democracy began with us, on the contrary Rome started as a type of democracy. But I do use Darokin somewhat as a curiosity for the, as yet, foreign pcs. "What? They all get together and VOTE for their leaders?? That is rather odd. It makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable."*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:35:50 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail >>I was recently thinking of having Rahasia connected to The Lost City (B4)by means of changing the tower's location possibly (a magic gate would have to be used I think) or maybe by just having the party coming across an "obscure >>reference" in this out of the way holdless temple. >>Whaddya think? Does anyone have any thoughts? >well first of all i would think you would need to have a really vigorous discussion as to the placement and background of B7. i have heard that it is supposed to be in eastern alfheim but there is something strange about this ... the Rahib seems like he could be Sindian or Hulean rather than Alasiyan (maybe I'm wrong about this) What is your reasoning? I think you might be right but some specific reasoning is good. For instance, culturally I suppose the bad guy is more along the deception lines of Bozdogan...I am not really well enough versed on the differences between Alasiyan culture and Hulean. I think you might be right though... and the Siswa definitely seem like a >non-alfheim cultural element. Well they are a non-mainstream-Alfhiem culture to be sure. My explanation to the pcs so far has simply been "they are a holdless clan living on the fringes of the Alfhiem/Dwarfgate border. In fact some might even argue that they are outside the border and just within Darokin territory. My thought is that there was some sort of cultural exchange during the time of the Nithian Empire and the elven attempts to change their environment. There was an expedition mentioned in the Alfhiem gazetteer involving a Nithian wizard entering Alfhiem territory during that time. I wonder if the two could be related in some way... Then again, like you say, Nithian culture does seem different from the one presented in Rahasia. So I figure the difference could just be the result of a group of Nithian survivors who lived with the holdless elves and bred with them. The culture was assimilated but mixed with so much elf as to make it unrecognizable. In addition/or/as an alternative: this particular holdless clan came across the Great Waste at some point and found itself influenced. Perhaps they were a surviving clan of the Grakhaalian expedition. i always wondered if it ought not to be in >a different time period entirely, like X6. but these are only thoughts; i have no clear sense of whether they are sound or not, as i don't have B7 accessible right now. Well since I am running it in AC1000 I want it in the same time period of course...:) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:37:49 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! At 07:37 PM 2/22/98 +0100, you wrote: >At 15.05 21/02/98 -0000, you wrote: > >Thanks Leroy! >I was just thinking of asking you to stop this "net-canon" discussion. So how many of these replies are we going to see? The Admin has spoken and we ALL should hang our heads. Let's just let that unpleasant thread die, ok? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:43:50 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: ><< So if I'm don't wrong, the Inmortals are Gods. So the word "Inmortal" >it's not correct when it used in D&D. >> Jamunga: When you quote other people, please let us know who you quote... >You're wrong. If D&D Mystaran Immortals would feel themselves as gods, they would call themselves gods. Who says they don't? Aron Alston(Spl?) has labeled the Immortals Immortals (Funny sentence.) It is never stated that the Immortals don't refer to themselves as Gods. And, whatabout other creatures? I bet there are at least two people in the Mystaran Mutiverse who refers to the Immortals as Gods. A word does not have an inherrent meaning. It all depends on the definitions of the speakers. I could come up with a couple of good definitions of the word god which would apply to the Immortals. The same goes for the other statement about the word Immortal being used incorrectly. You can use it any way you like as long as you define the word. The Term Immortal has a different meaning on Mystara than in the general english language, but the definition is given in WotI, so you can't say that it is wrong to use it in that manner. Thanks Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:18 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) At 12:05 AM 2/23/98 +0100, you wrote: >A few minutes ago I wrote: >>BTW: did anyone notice that PWA3 gives path and revolution times for a lot >of floating >continents, but not for Alphatia (probably the most important floating continent)? >Obviously I was wrong! >Alphatia _is_ there, but some floating continents are missing: the gnomish floating continent of Valoin-Flaemeker and Ashmorain, the floating continent introduced in HWA2. Good eye! Now how about developing those revolutions yourself and let us know what you came up with! :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:49:59 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: ><< Why would the DM have to solve the problem of teaching magic to the youth? >Because only an intelligence of 16 qualifies for a magic-user. Because only a wisdom of 16 qualifies for a cleric. >But for the right Alphatia as we know it we need much more clerics and magic-users. I think some sources, especially Dawn of the Emperors also suggests that only people with a certain talent can learn magic. That is beyond being sufficiently intelligent. Sorry, but I can't give you an exact quote on this. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:05:54 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics In a message dated 98-02-22 18:14:23 EST, you write: << At 09.02 22/02/98 EST, Alex295@aol.com wrote: >Now here is another paradox. How about true clerics of Rad. They could present >themselves as mages and cast only cleric like spells. Then they could cast heal spells in private and utilize fake Heal potions to give the mage affect. Nice trick, but do you really think there could be true clerics of Rad? Assuming that Rad is worshipped only in Glantri, it would be normal to think that a cleric of Rad should be a Glantrian... or at least someone who lives in Glantri. On the other hand a Glantrian, especially one who strongly believes in Rad, would never become a cleric, because he thinks that clerics are "bad" and inferior to mages. Don't you think so? Just my opinion. >> Like I said it would be a "paradox". Not to mention just another dirty little secret of Glantri. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:25:09 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: Mystara Dragons [was Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D] In a message dated 98-02-22 19:20:37 EST, you write: << > I think what happened to dragons in ad&d was that their frequency was >increased for the power gamers. Look at some of the Settings. Dragons out the >wahzoo. Bodies of dragons defending a city. Another body supplimenting the attackers. >It is somewhat ironic that a system named "advanced dungeons and dragons" has >deteriorated and even fostered power gaming by catering and fostering players >to expect a dragon in every venture. >More complicated and dice based game mechanics is one thing, but to sacrifice >the core of an adventure, setting material, is almost shameful. That is one of >reasons for my holding Mystara with such fondness. What other setting can boast such a well thought out and followed historical and substance basis. That is what I think sets us Mystarans apart, the details. <> Oh I agree. For some reason I ommitted the bad DMing notion from the original respnse. But it is true. Even the best laid out adventure module isn't worth doody if the DM runs it incorrectly. And IMO dragons are one creature that has to be played out. Do not rely on the stats. Play the dragon as an NPC. Give it a background, allies, minions, traps, and a way out (i love reoccurring villians) Vampires and Liches come to mind as other creatures that fall into this rank. <> I like this idea. I had always wanted to see more done to dragons such as the psuedo Uncle Anton (Raknar) in Glantri. Or those Reds that duked it out with the Heldannic Knights and their War Birds. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:42:20 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-23 07:55:56 EST, you write: << IIRC there was also a Shadow Elf character in Faces of Sigil accessory for Planescape. >> Was it a Mystaran Shadow Elf? The revamped RL Setting material Domain of Dread has a shadow elf darklord. However she is not a Mystaran SE. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:42:05 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >If you go by the original Immortals set then the multiverse of Mystara is totally seperate from the multiverse of AD&D. Different rules apply. The Birthright setting also exists outside the Plansecape world. Also Krynn has now officially been cut off from the rest of the AD&D worlds. No reason why we can't just ignore Planescape if we want to. IMO major changes will have to be done to Mystara if we want to fit it into planescape. And Mystaras Multiverse is fascinating aswell. why bother? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:52:59 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 Alex295@aol.com wrote: >I agree that looks may not be the deciding factor. Truly the human in question would have to be an extrordinary example of his race. As such, it is reasonable that the human would be physically attractive as well. What's the old saying? "Looks may not be everything but they sure do help." And given that a person's appearance is the first thing the elf will see, that is the basis of its first impression of that person. You also have to remember that we are talking about a elves. If a beautiful human is considered so-so in elven eyes, then where does a plain human fall? That is why I limit mixing of eleven blood to humans. Humans are the closest race to an elf. A comment on looks: Consider this: an elf may not see the difference between a plain human and a beautiful/handsome human. They may all look plain to him. Also keep in mind that looks may have more to do with culture than with race. The elves of Wendar may have learned to appreciate human looks more since they spend much more time with the humans. A comment on Genetics: There may actually be no such thing as genetics in Mystara. Things might work very differently. Especially with the Elves who are magical creatures. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #104 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:56:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #105 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, February 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 105 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Rockhome Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:57:25 CET From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia >>>4) In the coming years the Alphatians become the supreme power in th= >e HW >>>and re-establish contact with the outer world. >> >>>.....and how do you expect them to accomplish this??? >>=20 >>How do I expect them not to? If I assume the other points then this naturally follows. Their ability to dominate any society that is not a= >s >>powerful as they is not questionable. >I could see this happening. Unlike other nations of the Hollow World, many Alphatians have knowledge that they once dwelt elsewhere. That They are not the only people of the HW to remember they once dwelt elsewhere. Not to even mention the Beastmen or the SA that made their way from the outer world to the HW, you have the good example of the Azcans. The Azcans remember they once lived in a world of moving sun and seasons, but they think their world was destroyed (it was in fact the GRoF), and they've integrated this into their mythos, as to them it was one of the 5 (IIRC) turning points in their society, with the fifth one one being them dominating the world. You also have the Malpheggi as yet another example, that remember they once lived in another world where they were destroyed by a plague brought by the Nithians, and they were saved by the immortals. OTOH you have some people who don't remember their previous world, like the Nithians (for obvious reasons). Alphatians are in the middle, with most of the population not remembering another world (even Old Alphatia?), and the name level characters (which include many of the rulers) that do remember. >knowledge alone would compel them to find out where they are, which we've seen in PWAs. How it happened and why they were destroyed on the outer world would probably be next on their minds. The sheer number You forget one thing here: Almost no one knew of the existence of the HW, except for Eriadna and a few others. So how could they investigate the destruction of Alphatia etc? To use the example of the Azcans again (but you can take the Traldar as well, eg) they never tried to find out what happened to their old world. Likewise, most Alphatians, even if they remember the old world, would not even imagine they're still on the same planet! Now, there is the exception of Eriadna. Don't worry, that is explored in the net almanac. I would add another comment here. You could argue that all of the civilizations in the HW didn't know much of each others (save for Nithians/Hutaakans, Azcans/Oltecs, and maybe others), so they haven't made the link (except maybe at the Lighthouse where confronting various histories/legends might have led to such speculations), but OTOH Alphatia has many records of those extinct civs that they now find alive in the HW. Well, believe me, this is/will be covered in the net almanac too. of >mages on the continent would mean that Hollow World magic would be investigated and it's limits found faster with a work around for what doesn't work any longer. It's been one of the first things Empress Eriadna ordered, and certainly all wizards did it (it is very important to each of them to know how magic works, and the sooner the better as they may be able to use that knowledge to beat others). >Then they have all these ignorant nations that look (to them) to need to leadership. We've seen that all people when encountering others that don't meet their own kind of 'civilization' are >looked upon as 'lacking' in some way and searching for someone to show them the 'correct' way. I don't think that's the Alphatian way. Especially with Eriadna's new vision on the subject. They never enslaved the outer world, why would they do it here? >I think the Immortals may have unleashed something they might not be able to control into the Hollow World. I don't think so. I think they knew very well what they were doing. >The key to growing the Alphatian >civilization will be to destroy the Spell of Preservation. If that happens, there could be ancient civilizations wiped out that the Immortals had hope to preserve. This is all speculation but Alphatia shouldn't be counted on to remain complacent. Why would Alphatia's goal be to destroy the SoP? (more thoughts on this in another post). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:00:54 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >The Mystarain nations aren't allowed to enter the industrial age because of the changes it made in the real world. But eventually, they will reach that point and then what will happen? I ask this because it's not really clear just how backward the lands of the Known World are. Darokin seems to be entering a Renaissance but Thyatis seems to be a Roman or Byzantium Empire crumbling leaving those between as a toss-up on what age they are in. There may not be too much difference between a Renaissance cutlure and a classic one. (Roman Empire/Greeks) After all this was the age the renaissance wanted to ressurect. (Renaissance meaning rebirth) The Roman Empire was really very advanced and its fall caused Europe a huge technological setback which lasted through the Middle Ages. So the step from the Classic Age to the Rernaissance is quite short. Also I am totally opposed to a future where Thyatis is crumbling. What they all need is a new Emperor who can control the senate and reconquer the lost colonies. And then the World! Thyatis should be the most powerful nation in the world now that Alphatia is gone. Did you notice how fast the NACE rebuilt itself. Thyatis should be able to do the same. They have powerful mages, the retebius air fleet and the most advanced army in the world. I'd like to hear other peoples opinion on this. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:04:51 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Half elves >In a message dated 98-02-21 13:12:03 EST, Alex295@aol.com writes: >>Food suitability/weak stomach to either human or elven foods >>(Con. Check). >What do Elves eat that Humans don't? And vice versa? Only "don't" in the typical sense. Haven't you ever played a human PC regaled by elfish hosts with a feast of nuts and berries? ;) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:46:43 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:57:33 -0500 Daly writes: >At 12:55 AM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >>StarHawk wrote: >>>Personally I ignored AD&D's descriptions of Gods or Powers and use >the D&D >>>version completely. Since the Immortal's statistics are basically irrelevant until players become immortal they don't really matter, >and >>>once player's do all the rules have changed (in game as well as >out) any >>>way so you can use the D&D rules without any problems. If you >wanted you >>>could basically replace the rules for Immortals with any system you >liked >>>without affecting the game up to Immortality in any way. >>I wonder about Immortals mainly if the party ever goes planehopping >(ie >>Planescape). There's never been anything that I remember about >Mystara >>being cut off from other primes like Athas (Dark Sun) so they should encounter the same planes a traveler from Toril would but I'm not >sure >>because of the question of just what exactly are the Immortals and >where >>do they dwell. Planescape mentions Mystara (saying that Mystarians believe themselve the center of the universe) but it doesn't touch on exactly what the Immortals home are or where. I've got a copy of the Planescape sourcebook On Hallow Ground and hopes it expands on the Immortals more. >If you go by the original Immortals set then the multiverse of Mystara is >totally seperate from the multiverse of AD&D. Different rules apply. Acording to the RC, the OD&D and AD&D multiverses are seperate dimensions. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:27:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>The Mystarain nations aren't allowed to enter the industrial age because of the changes it made in the real world. But eventually, they will reach that point and then what will happen? I ask this because it's not really clear just how backward the lands of the Known World are. Darokin seems to be entering a Renaissance but Thyatis seems to be a Roman or Byzantium Empire crumbling leaving those between as a toss-up on what age they are in. >There may not be too much difference between a Renaissance cutlure and a classic one. (Roman Empire/Greeks) >After all this was the age the renaissance wanted to ressurect. (Renaissance meaning rebirth) The Roman Empire was really very advanced and its fall caused Europe a huge technological setback which lasted through the Middle Ages. >So the step from the Classic Age to the Rernaissance is quite short. Also I am totally opposed to a future where Thyatis is crumbling. What they all need is a new Emperor who can control the senate and reconquer the lost colonies. And then the World! Thyatis should be the most powerful nation in the world now that Alphatia is gone. Did you notice how fast the NACE rebuilt itself. Thyatis should be able to do the same. They have powerful mages, the retebius air fleet and the most advanced army in the world. >I'd like to hear other peoples opinion on this. I've not yet decided what will happen to Thyatis in my campaign (currently just starting WotI), but I rekon it will go one of two ways, either crumbling completely and being left open to attack by other nations of the known world (The alphatian islands IMC will not be as powerful as the NACE), or doing the above, having a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power. I think Minrothad, Ierendi, Five Shires and Karameikos could possibly fall to it, could be interesting anyway. Basically I'll have it one or the other, I don't like the idea of Thyatis being just another country the same as the rest. With it crumbling to bits it will be a tragic end to a once glorious empire, with it marching about the continent it will become a danger to the other nations which can lead to a war in the known world. I always felt that the known world didn't actually see that much fighting. The main conflicts were the Master (western darokin), the Orcs (Southern Glantri and northern Darokin) and Heldann (way up north). Well, and the Thyatian mainland of course :) Oh yeah and Alfheim, although that wasn't so much a war as a quick hostile takeover bid :) Hmm, maybe there was enough fighting going on :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:29:01 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D >Here is a query for the D&D die-hards. I must admit that I personally prefer D&D over AD&D, but I can see the "handwriting on the wall" as it were. The problem is this -- the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ was published in 1991, nearly seven years ago. It probably went out of print a couple of years later. So my question is this: >Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going to introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be getting difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other works on Mystara would be even tougher to track down. So -- how do you "keep the faith alive"? The same way any other craftsperson or hobbyist does, by using it in preference to the alternative. I am currently "retired" from roleplaying i.e. I don't play with my old group, although my wife still does. They play AD&D. Three out of five were in my now defunct D&D group. However, my wife and I play Saturday night with our 8 year old son. I DM and use D&D rules and plan to continue to do so as long as he or his younger brothers are interested. And so I "keep the faith" in a very small, personal way. In a larger sense, I believe OD&D will die out as time goes by. Perhaps AD&D will as well if some more engaging form of entertainment displaces it. Consider the games that have survived many years. They are either "public domain", like chess, or their publishers have kept the original game intact and relatively unchanged, like Monopoly. RPGs have yet to stand this test of time. They differ from games like chess and Monopoly in that quite a bit of creativity is required to generate scenarios to keep players interested. The way the industry has developed RPG publishers have chosen to generate revenues by changing the games rather than by producing a stream of accessories which allow the players to continue to use a set of fairly stable rules. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:41:44 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia >>I could see this happening. Unlike other nations of the Hollow World, many Alphatians have knowledge that they once dwelt elsewhere. That >They are not the only people of the HW to remember they once dwelt elsewhere. Not to even mention the Beastmen or the SA that made their way from the outer world to the HW, you have the good example of the Azcans. The Azcans remember they once lived in a world of moving sun Read instead that the Alphatians are unique in their knowledge that the outer world existed and STILL exists! >>knowledge alone would compel them to find out where they are, which we've seen in PWAs. How it happened and why they were destroyed on the outer world would probably be next on their minds. The sheer number >You forget one thing here: Almost no one knew of the existence of the HW, except for Eriadna and a few others. So how could they investigate the destruction of Alphatia etc? Actually quite a few knew. They had a whole colony down there. Themilitary certainly knew. I would imagine that no matter how secret they attempted to keep the place quite a few rumors were spread. To use the example of the Azcans again >(but you can take the Traldar as well, eg) they never tried to find out what happened to their old world. Likewise, most Alphatians, even if they remember the old world, would not even imagine they're still on the same planet! I would probably agree with this as one possible interpretation. >>Then they have all these ignorant nations that look (to them) to need to leadership. We've seen that all people when encountering others that don't meet their own kind of 'civilization' >are >>looked upon as 'lacking' in some way and searching for someone to show them the 'correct' way. >I don't think that's the Alphatian way. Especially with Eriadna's new vision on the subject. They never enslaved the outer world, why would they do it here? I agree and disagree. They did originally attempt to subjugate the outer world. They were less than successful in their first few attempts and never really put too much heart into it after AY1000. It is true that they do look on other cultures as inferior (as much as I favor the Alphatians I have to admit this). The only outerworld culture that they see as equal is the Thothian one. Though they still consider it a little backward. >>I think the Immortals may have unleashed something they might not be able to control into the Hollow World. >I don't think so. I think they knew very well what they were doing. I like the thought of them making a vital mistake. >>The key to growing the Alphatian >>civilization will be to destroy the Spell of Preservation. If that happens, there could be ancient civilizations wiped out that the Immortals had hope to preserve. This is all speculation but Alphatia shouldn't be counted on to remain complacent. >Why would Alphatia's goal be to destroy the SoP? (more thoughts on this in another post). Because it makes a neat storyline. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:45:23 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] At 04:00 PM 2/23/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>The Mystarain nations aren't allowed to enter the industrial age because of the changes it made in the real world. But eventually, they will reach that point and then what will happen? I ask this because it's not really clear just how backward the lands of the Known World are. Darokin seems to be entering a Renaissance but Thyatis seems to be a Roman or Byzantium Empire crumbling leaving those between as a toss-up on what age they are in. >There may not be too much difference between a Renaissance cutlure and a classic one. (Roman Empire/Greeks) >After all this was the age the renaissance wanted to ressurect. (Renaissance meaning rebirth) The Roman Empire was really very advanced and its fall caused Europe a huge technological setback which lasted through the Middle Ages. >So the step from the Classic Age to the Rernaissance is quite short. I agree with you so far. >Also I am totally opposed to a future where Thyatis is crumbling. I like the danger of crumbs in the latter days of Thincol's reing and then the surprise of a new powerful youthful leader in Eusebius. What >they all need is a new Emperor who can control the senate and reconquer the lost colonies. And then the World! I think this is basically what Eusebius is intending. Thyatis should be the most powerful >nation in the world now that Alphatia is gone. Well...actually I think Thyatis was great because it had an eternal enemy. Now that enemy is gone and the Senate will be pushing for less military spending and more bread for the commoners. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:06:15 CET From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia >>The key to growing the Alphatian >>civilization will be to destroy the Spell of Preservation. If that happens, there could be ancient civilizations wiped out that the Immortals had hope to preserve. This is all speculation but Alphatia >>shouldn't be counted on to remain complacent. >Alternatively, they may learn enough about the Spell of Preservation to understand it, accommodate it, work around its loopholes, and even exploit its benefits rather than destroy it, which may be a goal as much >beyond their power as destroying the Red Curse is for the folk who live on the Savage Coast. I agree. >Given the range of possibilities already implicit in Alphatian culture, I >would >imagine that the Spell of Preservation would not restrict them very much, >nor would they gain any sort of special compensations. The main thing that the Spell of Preservation stops the Alphatians from doing is destroying >or assimilating the "lesser" cultures -- and I suspect that the Alphatians >are well on the way to realizing that they don't want to do that anyway. yup >Also, the higher attribute requirements (16+ rather than 9+) for learning >magic would impede future generations of spellcasters -- but re-establishing >contact with the outer world would compensate for that restriction to some >extent. All the Alphatians would have to do is send promising young people to the outer world, where they can learn basic magic if they have >sufficient talent. Then they would be able to progress normally after they >return to the Hollow World. If the Alphatians develop a spell for detecting >magic talent, they could quite efficiently determine exactly which young >people should be sent on these expeditions. That an interesting option. There will be in the net almanac another workaround, which will help better integrate Alphatia in the HW. There will be one hint to it in the 1015 almanac, which will then be explorer in more detail in the 1016 almanac. This involves both Immortal meddling and Alphatian research, and will tie many apparently unrelated events into one grand scheme. >As to "benefits" of the Spell of Preservation -- note that Hollow World cultures that have not developed the use of iron can use weapons of their own technological level as if they were made of iron. This is a powerful advantage, and one that the Alphatians could readily exploit if they are able to form alliances with the more primitive peoples. They >could equip these mercenaries quite cheaply! _____________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/ Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:18:07 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rockhome At 09:39 AM 2/23/98 -0300, you wrote: >Can anybody tell me about Rochome? There are clans? >Jonathan Leibiusky >edu@giga.com.ar Rockhome has several clans. Here are brief descriptions of them, from GAZ6 (AC 1000) Buhrodar: Philosophical, clerical Everast: Aristocracy, professional rulership; King Everast is from this clan Hurwarf: Isolationists Skarrad: Technological development Syrklist: Mining, trade Torkrest: Military might Wyrwarf: protection of agricultural families These are the primary interests of the clans. There is a Senate in addition to the king, with each clan sending a varied number of senators. No clan has a majority of senators, but the Torkrest and the Syrklist clans have the most (49 and 51 respectively), controlling a total of 40% of the senate between them. What else did you want to know? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:31:58 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia If the Alphatians develop a spell for >detecting >>magic talent, they could quite efficiently determine exactly which >young >>people should be sent on these expeditions. There were already techniques in AY2000 Alphatia for determining magical talent in youngsters. For it states in the DotE that every child is tested for the talent and if he has it he joins the ranks of the blessed and if he does not then he is one of the many unfortunate souls possessing no talent and no station in life. Now whether they test the child through some arcane skill or lore or spell it does not really say. I would imagine it is all the above though. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:36:27 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves In a message dated 98-02-23 10:11:41 EST, you write: << A comment on looks: Consider this: an elf may not see the difference between a plain human and a beautiful/handsome human. They may all look plain to him. Also keep in mind that looks may have more to do with culture than with race. The elves of Wendar may have learned to appreciate human looks more since they spend much more time with the humans.>> Oh I agree. But IMO the two races are close enough in appearance to see familiar and physically attractive traits in one another. <> Once again I agree. Genetics are not as far reaching to Mystara as they are in the RW. When genetics are used they are broad and have specific results. The Nithian/Traldar. Traldar/Oltec. And the two Alphatian races. My half elf genetics are more based on fantasy and symbolism. The burden being on the part of the mother's race in determining traits and frequency of HE births. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:51:55 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Here is another way to look at this subject. Which is more important? The OD&D Rules System or The setting of Mystara. Since a large chunk of RPGers do use AD&D or a mix, isn't it possible that we should focus on maintaining the setting of Mystara. IMO the setting is most important. What rules system the DM and game group use are up to that game cell. I hate to say it but D&D will probably die given time. I do not play too often. But I do show my respects. The shrink wrapped Red Box Basic Rules on my shelf attests to that. And it is with great fondness that I reflect upon the old days when a few of us gathered together and played using the rules in that box. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:55:13 CET From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia ><< I think they have already figured out how the Hollow World "ticks". Actual >conquest (with the intent of imposing their own culture) is clearly not a >good way for the Alphatians to proceed. However, they can easily form alliances with any culture that does not have an absolute hatred of spell >casters (i.e., with over 90% of them). They won't be controlling much of >the surface of the Hollow World, but I would not be at all surprised if in >a few years most of it is under Alphatian "protection". And that won't >bother the Immortals at all -- in fact, that was part of their intention in >placing Alphatia there in the first place. >> >I have to agree with Kaviyd on this somewhat. Alliances with the Nithians is >feasible given the links to Thothia. The Milenians may sway to the Alphatian >standard. Lesser peoples such as the Icevale elves may need a show of force to >demonstrate the futility of non cooperation. The main opposition will be the >Schattenalffen and Azcan. These two will have to be dealt with at some point. IMO the Alphatians will try to go by diplomacy, as they did with the Neathar and Oostdok. So far they've had good contacts with the Milenians and with the Nithians (at least with Ramose's faction), and others. >IMO the Alphatians are at least beginning to understand the HW. Bypassing the >Spell of Preservation should not be a big deal. Afterall, the Alphatians met a >simular challenge when the made Landfall. I'd not say bypassing the SoP, rather getting used to it. >The thing that puzzles me is the general mindset of the Alphatian peoples. >Prior to the sinking, they were in a warlike "let's kick butt" attitude. >Wouldn't that attitude still be present due to the Spell of Preservation. I >know the Immortals alterred the general population's memory but wouldn't there >be some lingering feelings of aggression. Though they do not know who they are >ticked off at. The SoP preserves culture, not attitude. The Alphatian are not a warlike culture. The fact that they were in the middle of a war is irrelevant; the immortals just had to erase memory of the war (except from name level characters, obvioulsy) and the job is done. The Alphatians, not remembering they were at war, would just return to their usual occupations. >Another thought is the alterred memories themselves and the possible paradoxes. Places such as Bluenose who boasted their beaches will find business down as the sea is replaced by open sky. This has got to strike even >the lowest level NPC as strange. With so little income how did all these grand >and expensive buildings get paid for. Yes, that is a problem. I think that is something we should find a solution for when we discuss events for 1016, Alex. >Or the random citizen that had a brother but doesn't know where he is. I know >the deaths were explained as the result of an earthquake, but that had to of >been one hell of a quake. Especially when brother was a soldier and posted >.....now where was he posted at? Sundsvall? No. He sailed to his post...but >there is no ocean. Maybe the immortals planted memory of a recent war (a few years ago). But I don't think so. Yes, better if they planted memory of accidental deaths, earthquakes are fine for mass deaths, other memories could have been used for some others. >IMO these inconsistancies are starting to drive the people a bit loony. It >should not be long before the whole of Alphatia is beginning to put things >together or else go insane. >What if someone figured it all out and managed to convince others? The truth >spreads and eventually large numbers know what happened. Possibly making it >neccessary for Eriadna to make an official proclamation about what has really >transpired. Could this be a means of breaking the Spell of Preservation? I fail to see how this would break the SoP. The problem is that it would be difficult to convince many people that what their memory tells them is crap. Tell me Alex, you can't wait discussing Alphatia's future, eh? :) Well, we'll have plenty of time to do that for the 1016 almanac. And for some of the questions you have in mind, theyfind their answer in the 1015 almanac... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #105 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:47:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #106 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, February 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 106 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar [MYSTARA] - Mystics (was D&D to AD&D) Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:36:59 -0500 From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >A few minutes ago I wrote: >>BTW: did anyone notice that PWA3 gives path and revolution times for a lot >of floating >continents, but not for Alphatia (probably the most important floating continent)? >Obviously I was wrong! >Alphatia _is_ there, but some floating continents are missing: the gnomish floating continent of Valoin-Flaemeker and Ashmorain, the floating continent introduced in HWA2. Well, PWA3 does state that the ones given are only the eight largest floating continents, but there are many more. Now, an interesting contradiction does arise between this and the Hollow World boxed set. According to the boxed set, the Hiakrai (one of the Neathar tribes) lives on the floating continent of Hiak-lor, which is described as being the lowest and largest of the floating continents. This continent isn't mentioned in PWA3. Even assuming that the Hiakrai just use a different name for it than other parts of the Hollow World, it still doesn't work with the information in PWA3. If one ignores Alphatia (which wasn't present in 1000 AC, the time of the boxed set), the largest floating continent is Chijioke, but this one also has the highest altitude. This is most likely due to an oversight on the part of the writers but it does leave an interesting question: did something happen to Hiak-lor between 1000 and 1012? Michael. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:30:58 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia << The only flaw I see to the vampire hypothesis is that vampires cannot reproduce in the normal manner, so there would be no way for a vampire to beget a son at the age of 80+. Also, Ramenhotep X is still "alive" in M5, so there is no reason to believe that he or any of his successors continued to reign after becoming undead. >> Adoptions? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:31:07 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics << Now here is another paradox. How about true clerics of Rad. They could present themselves as mages and cast only cleric like spells. Then they could cast heal spells in private and utilize fake Heal potions to give the mage affect. Cool! Sounds like a typical Mystaran Immortal's idea. IMC I have introduced an NPC cleric of Rad to assist a magic-user who participated in X2. He is now a count in Thyatis and looked for a head cleric in his castle. Rad decided to send one of his clerics. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:31:01 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << What if someone figured it all out and managed to convince others? The truth spreads and eventually large numbers know what happened. Possibly making it neccessary for Eriadna to make an official proclamation about what has really transpired. Could this be a means of breaking the Spell of Preservation? >> I don't think so! It might be an immortal's flaw though. A proof that Mystaran Immortals are no gods. The isolationism of Alphatia is preserved too. Really interesting possibilities. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:31:03 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves << But mainly I wished to offer a non standard disadvantage of a half elf. A weak stomach seemed logical. Inheriting part of her elven parent's palate will make dinners interesting. Besides, if Terandra is under the weather from eating a certain meal the handicap is different as a sore or upset stomach doesn't really fall to the Cure Disease Spell. Plus there is the implied intestinal gas that could be expected. Not only would it be less than appreciated by her fellows, it could also compromise their position if stealth is required. >> Hm, my cleric ALWAYS uses the Cure Disease spell when getting a stomach-ache... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:46:47 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:00:16 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-21 21:46:30 EST, you write: ><< Here is a query for the D&D die-hards. I must admit that I personally prefer >D&D over AD&D, but I can see the "handwriting on the wall" as it were. The problem is this -- the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ was published in 1991, nearly seven years ago. It probably went out of print a couple of years later. So my question is this: >Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going to introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be getting difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other works on Mystara would be even tougher to track down. So -- how do you "keep the faith alive"? >> >Kaviyd has a point. The RC is hard to get ahold of. Originally I had all of Boxed Rules Sets plus several other material peices but I sold them. Since getting back into gaming, the RC has been the most difficult item to get. In fact, I have seen only a few offered for sale online and they were gone when I enquired about them. One company had several but had all of them purchased by the same person, probably a collector. >As yet I have no RC which isn't a problem as I rarely play straight D&D. The Box Rules are out there and in abundance so to speak. I have the Red Box as well as the Classic D&D Box. I''ll probably opt to get the rest of the Box Series if the RC is out of reach for much longer. >Gazs are another problem product. I have most of them. Only lack about three or four of them. Most notably Glantri and Alfheim. >All of this goes back to Kaviyd's premise of losing D&D enthuseists as the product becomes ever increasingly difficult to find. This is a shame. I would hope that WotC would reissue some of the Gazs at least. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. By the way, what is the Classic D&D boxed set put out... this is considered the sixth and last edition of the rules... does it contain all the rules (Basic to Immortals)? __________________________________ | |\ | Chris Billows | | | Check out my Gaming Memoirs | | | www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/ | | |_________________________________| | \_________________________________\| *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:46:22 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:32:41 EST, you wrote: >Here is a query for the D&D die-hards. I must admit that I personally prefer D&D over AD&D, but I can see the "handwriting on the wall" as it were. The problem is this -- the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_ was published in 1991, nearly seven years ago. It probably went out of print a couple of years later. So my question is this: >Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going to introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be getting difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other works on Mystara would be even tougher to track down. So -- how do you "keep the faith alive"? >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. One way would be to make sure the old stuff does not get lost... Please check out the Classic D&D Renewal Project at www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/dnd. I think the way to save D&D is through the Internet... this listserve is the perfect way to do this. If we were able to convince TSR to release their D&D stuff into the public domain... that too would help, but this is very unlikely. Maybe we need to petition them to put out a D&D module... or put all their stuff on CD-ROM and see how others would purchase it... __________________________________ | |\ | Chris Billows | | | Check out my Gaming Memoirs | | | www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/ | | |_________________________________| | \_________________________________\| *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:30:38 PST From: "Martin Edwards" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar >According to PWA3, the only large floating continent that circles the sun 12 times every year is Alphatia, but of course, the Milenians >would have developed their calendar long before Alphatia showed up there, so the >calendar had to be based on different continents. The next best was Cassia which >revolves 6 times a year (there is one that revolves 7 times a year, but this >doesn't divide down further very easily). There is a minor element of confusion in the Floating Continent data given in PWA3. The motions described for each body *do not include the rotation of Mystara*, i.e. while Alphatia is doing its 12 revolutions per year the Hollow World is also spinning 336 times a year beneath it. This is implied by the statements which talk about each continent’s shadow circumscribing a band of latitude as the world rotates (pp. 129 & 132) and also by the very short shadowfall durations (p.129). This has some implications for timekeepers on the HW (mostly useful ones). For a start, there’s a reasonable astronomical measure of one day/sleep: to an observer on the Hollow World all the planets appear to rotate around the sun once a ‘day’ and return approximately to their same positions (as rotation of the world is much faster than the orbits of the continents). Secondly, the continents appear (to an observer on the HW surface) to make many more rotations east-west than the number of annual orbits. E.g. Alphatia appears to make 324 revolutions (that’s 336 revolutions of Mystara minus 12 orbits in the same direction), Cassia 330, Chijioke 341 etc. However the apparent north-south motion is not affected, e.g. Cassia still makes 6 north to south journeys each year. Therefore observant HW astronomers (‘chthononomers’, anyone?) can still count the Cassians, Circles and Demicircles as per Michael’s excellent Milenian calender. If you prefer IYC to assume that the motions described are relative to the surface, i.e. *do* include the rotation of Mystara, then you will have to ignore the stuff about ‘circumscribing bands of latitude’, and lengthen the shadowfall durations considerably. Alphatia’s shadowfall would then last over 3 days and Chijioke’s over 4 days. IMC, I considered this unacceptable as such long periods of blackout could have major effects on the cultures below, especially with the sudden arrival of Alphatia. Apologies if I haven’t explained my thoughts very clearly. If find this subject rather difficult to think about. Martin Edwards ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:01:12 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystics (was D&D to AD&D) I was never all too thrilled with the Mystic, so I worked up a set of "martial artists" who don't deviate from the "norm" of the four main classes. It's not a single character class. It's a "cluster" of "high-level options" for each character class. In a nutshell, fighters can gain very limited clerical spells and some thief abilities. Clerics can gain some thief abilities and some fighter abilities. Thieves gain very limited magic-user spells and some fighter abilities. Magic-users gain some thief abilities and limited fighter abilities. All who enter this path basically become full-time flunkies of the monastary and are forbidden to own *ANYTHING*. If they think they need a magic item for a mission, they have to ask the Abbot for it. There are also some fairly hefty requirements for joining. Rare, indeed, would be the 9th-level character who actually qualifies. Generally, it involves having some levels of Weapon Mastery in Strikes and/or Wrestling, Weapon Mastery off a list of "peasant-style" weapons, the Mysticism skill, and some other requirements tossed on top for good measure. It is possible to be an "associate"-type member of these monastaries before 9th level, just as it is possible to be a particularly virtuous and honorable fighter before 9th level. However, the "Mystical Secrets of the Art" are not handed out to those who have not proven themselves. I simply found Mystics to be too far out for my taste... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:05:20 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >Explain what you mean by "materialism". For instance, is America unique in materialistic goals? I once read something very ironic in high school. Some high-school age students from the USSR participated in an exchange program and were then queried as to their opinions of Americans. They claimed that we were too "materialistic". This is hilariously ironic coming from the ideological standpoint of a dialectic materialistic Marxist-Leninistic society. >What did we act like before the Civil War? As Uncle Shelby Foote (no, he's not my uncle--I call him so in a sense of respect) said: "The Civil War turned us from an 'are' into an 'is'. Before the war, we always said 'the United States are', afterwards, it was always 'the United States is'. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:10:27 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >So the step from the Classic Age to the Rernaissance is quite short. Only according to the propaganda of the Renaissance. Believe me, there is an incredible gulf of social, technological, political, and economic differences between the Classical and Renaissance ages of Europe. Classical culture was a slave-based economy. Renaissance culture lived on the backs of bound but still at least theoretically free labor. Classical culture was pluralistic and adoptive. Renaissance culture presumed that the Western Church (pick your country's flavor) was right, and then hammered some elements of Classical culture into this model. There are many more vital differences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 12:12:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D >Even if we agree that D&D is vastly superior to AD&D, how are we going to introduce new people to D&D? I suspect that even now it must be getting difficult to find copies of the _D&D Rules Cyclopedia_, and that other works on Mystara would be even tougher to track down. So -- how do you "keep the faith alive"? Well, one way would be to create a net-version of D&D. It would have to be sanitized (by avoided TSR phrases and trademarks) but it could be mechanically identical... and you can't copyright mechanics. IMO it wouldn't need all the optional rules, like weapon specialization and domains and stuff, just the basics. You could probably get a functional system into about 10 pages. Anyway, this has worked for Fudge, and other systems to a lesser degree. The important thing is that players could download and print their own copy of the rules. I still think TSR should sell the rights to OD&D... :-) Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:55:15 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >I always thought that Rad's "clerics" are Shepherds, who are actually wizards (GAZ3). The special powers from WotI apply to *them*. At least that's how I see it. And Etienne's brother Simon is a cleric of Razud (as mentioned in Mark of Amber, which despite being AD&D, I consider canon). I think this idea works well. Rad is essentially a Immortal of magic so it would make sense that his followers would be mages and not clerics. I think the Glantri wizards show as much devotion to him as any clerics would to their Immortal. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:17:42 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D 3@giga.com.ar wrote: >I'll try to be clear. >When I wrote the first mail I said that I just looking for opinions. Now It seems to be a kind of "war". I don't want to be involved in this "war". >Just an opinion: TSR made a game and latter they made another one. This last game have so much rules so the DM can't give the game is own style. >I don't know well the AD&D so I can't say more. In any case, I think there are good things in AD&D but I personaly prefer D&D. Style is up to the DM. AD&D suffers under the illusion that if they make a rule then you must use it. If you feel the game is bogged down by the rules, you might consider a different rule system or just start trimming until you're comfortable. In my games, I let players go as far as they like with the available materials provided I'm familiar with it also. It can make the game slow at times and I personally think when you're worried about where an item is exactly in your backpack then the adventure is probably not the main attraction. Some like that, I assume, or maybe I just never was a good packer and never saw the allure ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:56:54 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! Inconu@aol.com wrote: >One adaption they came out with was the Complete Book on Ninjas. Personally i liked the Mystic from AD&D more, but a combo of both, and getting rid of some aspects of one and adapting parts of the Ninja book, might be a good idea for a replacement. Haven't had a chance to see this book but I never thought it would include a monkish type from the title. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:06:25 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Daly wrote: >If you go by the original Immortals set then the multiverse of Mystara is totally seperate from the multiverse of AD&D. Different rules apply. This goes back to the original problem of keeping Mystara alive in the here and now. How do you promote a rule system that isn't published? It's much easier to point a newcomer to something they can actually buy and read than something they would have to go on a hunt for. I've found an Immortals set I've ordered but haven't recieved yet and I'm a fan of the setting and the rules. Imagine introducing Mystara to someone that thinks AD&D was the the first D&D game. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:01:55 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Inconu@aol.com wrote: >Just remember how rare paladins really are. If there are any in the Known World, then there's probably not too many of them. I agree that they should have granted powers like the druids of ad&d. Something at 3rd and 7th or whatever. Either way, i do believe that any religion should have the possibility to have paladins. Paladins shouldn't just be for goodly characters in my opinion. I think that a true warrior that has more faith in even Thanatos then some priests have....should get granted powers. Maybe instead of the immunites and protection from evil radius, they can obtain some of the unique abilities priests of certain Immortals gain. We disagree on this point about any Immortal having paladins. Not because Immortals wouldn't grant certain abilities to their warrior devotees but the use of the word paladin. Paladin comes to the game with preconceived ideas of being just, loyal and good. But what ever they are called for other faiths, I think different abilities would add more to the uniqueness of any warrior/cleric not just the opposite of what the current paladin has. Maybe things like a fear aura or cause confusion one per day. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:49:26 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Aaron E Nowack wrote: >Acording to the RC, the OD&D and AD&D multiverses are seperate dimensions. One of which has been wiped from existence. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:05:46 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Daly wrote: >Well...actually I think Thyatis was great because it had an eternal enemy. Now that enemy is gone and the Senate will be pushing for less military spending and more bread for the commoners. If they don't find a way to appease the commoners there could be a revolution event that ends up making Thyatis a nation of terror for a few years then taking a totally different form afterwards. The French and Russian kings saw the error of not taking commoners needs seriously. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:47:46 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >The Birthright setting also exists outside the Plansecape world. Also Krynn has now officially been cut off from the rest of the AD&D worlds. No reason why we can't just ignore Planescape if we want to. IMO major changes will have to be done to Mystara if we want to fit it into planescape. And Mystaras Multiverse is fascinating aswell. why bother? Birthright also changes the standard rules of AD&D also, making me wonder why oD&D couldn't continue. The Realms, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape also change or add to them. Still a mystery to me why TSR saw oD&D as so different to kill it and switched to AD&D which is changed in favor of the setting in most cases. The main reason to bother is because, though it has a multiverse worked out, Mystara's version isn't likely to ever see print again. Which goes back to the question of how do we keep Mystara in print without it's rule system? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:59:01 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >After all this was the age the renaissance wanted to ressurect. (Renaissance meaning rebirth) The Roman Empire was really very advanced and its fall caused Europe a huge technological setback which lasted through the Middle Ages. True. But one reason for the technological setback was Rome's subjigation of other cultures making them depended on them. Once they lost that support, their way of life had been wiped from them making the fall much harder had they never been assimulated. Thyatis doesn't have that much control over the other nations making their fall have less impact to others. Also, their technology isn't much higher than other cultures around them. >So the step from the Classic Age to the Rernaissance is quite short. Also I am totally opposed to a future where Thyatis is crumbling. What they all need is a new Emperor who can control the senate and reconquer the lost colonies. And then the World! Thyatis should be the most powerful nation in the world now that Alphatia is gone. Did you notice how fast the NACE rebuilt itself. Thyatis should be able to do the same. They have powerful mages, the retebius air fleet and the most advanced army in the world. I like the idea of Thyatis crumbling. In Rome's fall (which didn't happen over night but was a matter of decades and even centuries depending of where you place it's destruction beginnings), it was a hotbed of scandal and corruption that reached into the highest parts of the society. The intrigues alone could sustain campaigns for years. Though Thyatis might not fall with the effect of Rome, it would be interesting to see it's slow decay as the Emperor tries to hold an empire together that is destined to fall. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:41:47 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Daly wrote: >Explain what you mean by "materialism". For instance, is America unique in materialistic goals? Not unique in it but I think unique in the lengths we go. This may be a world wide problem but since I haven't traveled out of the states, I hesitate to make this point on other countries. But I find that in the US, personal gain is more important than honestly, charity and even family to many more Americans than is healthy. >What did we act like before the Civil War? I think before the Civil War we were a country that wasn't very closely tied together. After the Revolutionary War, we were a nation where the states themselves were the power. After the Civil War, the central government starting becoming more powerful and imposing its will over that of the individual states. >>WW1 that we became an important nation in world affairs. >Mainly because of our own choice. The Monroe Doctrine. I don't think we could have become a powerful nation without WW1. It gave us a chance to show how powerful we were. But after the war, we wanted to go back to isolationism. I don't know if we had a choice in the matter once our strength was known. In any case, we didn't attempt to influence other nations without going to war until the formation of the UN. >But it is not a "government change". Elections produce new leaders in the same government. At times, it seems as if we head into a totally different direction and outlook. Technically, it is a government change though still democratic form. Through our history if you compare the original government to the current one, it's possible to think these are two different countries though both are democracies. >Of course one could argue that dwarves and gnomes are in the Industrial Age. But their industries don't really produce anything practical enough or in large enough quantities. I think dwarves and gnomes are always in a stage of industry of some type from their origins but I have no idea while they haven't risen in technology since their creation. >I think we have to assume a reluctance to invent too much. The lessons of Blackmoor are remembered by the elves and the elves aren't likely to let the humans forget too quickly. There's not been any hint at the elves taking any kind of action to stem off technology. Having never read anything about Blackmoor, I have only than vague ideas of what kind of technology they possessed. >Darokin is an innovative young country much like America was. Not that democracy began with us, on the contrary Rome started as a type of democracy. But I do use Darokin somewhat as a curiosity for the, as yet, foreign pcs. >"What? They all get together and VOTE for their leaders?? That is rather odd. It makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable." I've never saw Rome as a democracy though they did absorb some of the Greek ideas of government which is what I think of Darokin as emulating. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #106 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:54:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #107 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, February 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 107 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics (was D&D to AD&D) Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics (was D&D to AD&D) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts [MYSTARA] - The Isle of Gaity [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics (was D&D to AD&D) Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:11:21 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << I think some sources, especially Dawn of the Emperors also suggests that only people with a certain talent can learn magic. That is beyond being sufficiently intelligent. Sorry, but I can't give you an exact quote on this. >> IMO the problem is that a person with the ability to cast magic or the faith to become a cleric can have ability scores between 3 and 18. Those with scores between 3 and 15 will get no chance in the Hollow World. Therefore my suggestions a few days ago. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:11:24 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) << Yep wait till the Randel description is finished. Yes the Randel Armed Forces have a rallying cry. >> The R.A.F. ??? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:21:09 -0800 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D >Was it a Mystaran Shadow Elf? The revamped RL Setting material Domain of Dread has a shadow elf darklord. However she is not a Mystaran SE. The SE is from Mystara. Thrown through a gate by an Alphatian wizard. Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:44:33 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Chris Paul Billows wrote: >One way would be to make sure the old stuff does not get lost... Please check out the Classic D&D Renewal Project at www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/dnd. Great idea, btw. >I think the way to save D&D is through the Internet... this listserve is the perfect way to do this. If we were able to convince TSR to release their D&D stuff into the public domain... that too would help, but this is very unlikely. Well, it certainly would go along way in perserving it in some form for others. >Maybe we need to petition them to put out a D&D module... or put all their stuff on CD-ROM and see how others would purchase it... Man, I would sell my mother to have everything on CD-ROM (well, someone's mother ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:48:01 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Chris Paul Billows wrote: >By the way, what is the Classic D&D boxed set put out... this is considered the sixth and last edition of the rules... does it contain all the rules (Basic to Immortals)? I don't have that product but from the '94 catalog description, I got the impression is was a smaller box version of the large black box. I would guess then that it only went from 1-5 levels. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:02:07 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Just a few points... Herve Musseau wrote: >HW, except for Eriadna and a few others. So how could they investigate the destruction of Alphatia etc? To use the example of the Azcans again (but you can take the Traldar as well, eg) they never tried to find out what happened to their old world. Likewise, most Alphatians, even if they remember the old world, would not even imagine they're still on the same planet! Most Alphatians could believe that this is the world they came to from their original home. If they gave them memories of their second homeland being destroyed, we might have a whole different mindset from anyhting to apathy to eat, drink, merry. >in the HW. Well, believe me, this is/will be covered in the net almanac too. When's it due out? >>I think the Immortals may have unleashed something they might not be able to control into the Hollow World. >I don't think so. I think they knew very well what they were doing. Dieties are notorious for doing things that cause problems later on in which they have to fix. Probably the reason they do things wrong to first place so no one ever gets the chance to no longer need them. >Why would Alphatia's goal be to destroy the SoP? (more thoughts on this in another post). Maybe not a 'We're going to destroy this spell' attitude but human nature usually is such that they keep trying to go farther until they break whatever restraints were on them for no other reason other than they can. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:15:08 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics (was D&D to AD&D) bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >I was never all too thrilled with the Mystic, so I worked up a set of "martial artists" who don't deviate from the "norm" of the four main classes. It's not a single character class. It's a "cluster" of "high-level options" for each character class. In a nutshell, fighters can gain very limited clerical spells and some thief abilities. Clerics can gain some thief abilities and some fighter abilities. Thieves gain very limited magic-user spells and some fighter abilities. Magic-users gain some thief abilities and limited fighter abilities. Some interesting ideas. Though with any big gains (I consider acquiring magic and clerical spells a gain) I'd have some large disadvantages. One problem that I'd wouldn't mind knowing is, what exactly are the purpose of mystics? From their description in the rules, they sound like traveling monks but it doesn't mention Immortal beliefs of any type. The monks of medieval culture were scholars mainly, I thought. At least I know they were the ones that perserved knowledge during the dark ages. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:55:10 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics << Nice trick, but do you really think there could be true clerics of Rad? Assuming that Rad is worshipped only in Glantri, it would be normal to think that a cleric of Rad should be a Glantrian... or at least someone who lives in Glantri. On the other hand a Glantrian, especially one who strongly believes in Rad, would never become a cleric, because he thinks that clerics are "bad" and inferior to mages. Don't you think so? >> I don't believe. Your assumption is not correct, as Rad might try to expand his sphere of influence. On the other hand imagine a strong believer without the talent to become a magic-user. Rad may appear him and tell him about another way to casts spells, more dangerous, but profitable. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:55:14 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D << I also think the Church of Narvaez, and maybe even the Heldannic Knights should have paladins. >> As Vanya is neutral and has lawful, chaotic and neutral clerics, there should be Vanya avengers, too. Imagine the sqabbles between Vanya's paladins and avengers when fighting together... "Fanatic zealot!" - "Heretical mercenary!" Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:55:13 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Should only a few lawful Immortals have paladins? Or maybe the Immortal aren't involved in calling paladins, maybe it's just certain churches. >> Please, please, don't forget the avengers. They need not to be evil, only chaotic. As you might have noticed, the usage of avengers is one of my favorite projects. IMC we have two avengers, but not one paladin. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:14:14 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Everything I write for Mystara will use the D&D rules because I use the D&D rules in my own gaming. If the non-mechanical substance is strong enough, then other people will convert it, themselves. If it isn't, then nobody will bother. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:28:47 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics (was D&D to AD&D) On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Some interesting ideas. Though with any big gains (I consider acquiring magic and clerical spells a gain) I'd have some large disadvantages. And the disadvantages given to Paladins in the D&D rules aren't large enough? I based this class's abilities pretty much on the paladin/avenger model. >One problem that I'd wouldn't mind knowing is, what exactly are the purpose of mystics? From their description in the rules, they sound like traveling monks but it doesn't mention Immortal beliefs of any type. The monks of medieval culture were scholars mainly, I thought. At least I know they were the ones that perserved knowledge during the dark ages. In my post-apocalyptic campaign, my version is a sort of "stateless group". They formed during the Dark Age and sort of hung on thereafter. Most of them appear to follow a god called "The Eye-Opened One" or "He Who is Awake". The by-the-book mystics have as much place in Mystara as the AD&D 1st edition monks had in Greyhawk: There are always fan-boys out there with visions of Bruce Lee and that laughable actor whose initials are "D.C." but who oughtn't have his name actually mentioned in the same sentence as the founder of Jeet Kun Do. Unfortunately, the very last thing that most of them want is any kind of balanced interpretation of a martial artist--they want Manga. It is interesting to note that all the groups generally associated with mastery of "martial arts" had very strong weapon training--training that diminished only in the 20th century, once repeating firearms became very widespread and most melee weapons were declared illegal in most countries. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:30:33 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: ><< Should only a few lawful Immortals have paladins? >Or maybe the Immortal aren't involved in calling paladins, maybe it's just certain churches. >> >Please, please, don't forget the avengers. They need not to be evil, only chaotic. Yup, and the "Knight in Shining Armor" who rides out to right wrongs and seek justice could be a chaotic force. After all, what if justice requires rebellion? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:15:01 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts At 09.55 23/02/98 +0200, Anias Pasi wrote: >The Infravision is described as showing the differences in the temperature. Usually this is pictured so that warmer shows red, colder blue. A living thing, radiating heat would show red while the wall behind would show blue or pale blue in a cave. Then if you have an undead skeleton, that does not generate warmth, it would show the same blue as the surroundings, and You could not see it with the same backround. But if the skeleton moves you'll see the heat produced by the friction of his feet... ehm bones on the ground. Creatures skilled with infravision (e.g. Shadow Elves, 'noids of the Broken Lands) should be able to notice even the smallest changes in the temperature pattern. >But then again, liches (if one can speak about them in general, as they shoul IMHO allways wary a bit) might generate some warmth themselves should they want to. There is no reason to think that these magic-invested monsters would be punished with the coldness of the grave. In fact I could easily believe them to be wery warm even hot to infravision. And still>they could have a 'death cold grip' when touching a mortal... Why don't we make a list of "cold" creatures? BTW: what about a vampire in wolf or bat form, is he still "cold"? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:53:27 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << Paladin comes to the game with preconceived ideas of being just, loyal and good. >> You're right. It does come to the game with the charecter holding those qualities, but in my campaigns I've changed it to more of a loyalty issue...more than haveing to do with morality and goodness. I think that any Lawful character should have the possibilites to become a paladin. I guess it's sort of like the Avenger class from OD&D.......and....well.... there never really was a neutral paladin-type created, but i just think that the 3 sides should all be able to get special abilities for the bests of thier kind. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:14:04 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts At 03:15 PM 2/23/98 +0100, you wrote: >At 09.55 23/02/98 +0200, Anias Pasi wrote: >>The Infravision is described as showing the differences in the temperature. Usually this is pictured so that warmer shows red, colder blue. A living thing, radiating heat would show red while the wall behind would show blue or pale blue in a cave. Then if you have an undead skeleton, that does not generate warmth, it would show the same blue as the surroundings, and You could not see it with the same backround. >But if the skeleton moves you'll see the heat produced by the friction of his feet... ehm bones on the ground. >Creatures skilled with infravision (e.g. Shadow Elves, 'noids of the Broken Lands) should be able to notice even the smallest changes in the temperature pattern. But that is one of those things the character will only notice if he is specifically looking. >>But then again, liches (if one can speak about them in general, as they shoul IMHO allways wary a bit) might generate some warmth themselves should they want to. There is no reason to think that these magic-invested monsters would be punished with the coldness of the grave. In fact I could easily believe them to be wery warm even hot to infravision. And still they could have a 'death cold grip' when touching a mortal... >Why don't we make a list of "cold" creatures? BTW: what about a vampire in wolf or bat form, is he still "cold"? Yes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:18:23 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Isle of Gaity Got an interesting idea for the island of Gaity (or one of it's many "theme parks", at any rate) while reading _Deathstalker War_ last night. In one of the chapters, the heroes travel to a forbidden planet, formerly a pleasure world, where everyone mysteriously disappeared years before. When they arrive on the planet, they find the cause of everyone's deaths... SPOILERS for those of you who haven't read it but might and don't want to know... That should do it. Anyway, they find that the people were killed by an insurrection of the 'toys' that ran the planet- robots in the guise of toys that ran the rides, etc. The planet was a retreat for people who wanted to regain the lost child in all of them. A bunch of AI's gave the robots intelligence, and they went rogue. Now there is a civil war between the good toys and bad toys (the ones that didn't kill people and the ones that did). That could be one of the things that happened after the Week of No Magic. With no one around to reinstitute the magical wards, etc. the newly reactivated golem-toys went rogue and began attacking their creators in Fantasyland. Now that area of Gaity is avoided by living creatures... - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:31:34 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Here's one idea for paladins in Mystara that could use some fleshing out. This is a fighting order established by the Church of Karameikos after splitting from the Church of Thyatis. It uses the AD&D PHB 2nd Edition paladin experience table. The abilities gained are listed below which follow a gradual increase in power better than having it all at 1st level, in my opinion. 3rd level - detect evil up to 30' feet away 6th level - immune to all forms of disease, detect evil up to 60' feet 9th level - laying on hands, cure disease, aura of protection, clerical spells They are known as the Shield of Karameikos and function as the protection force of the church. They have a large garrison in Mirros but find themselves used mostly as royal guards participating in ceremony. As the church sees King Stephan as the Immortal's choice for their king, the Shields see to his and the royal family's personal safety. In the event of a war between another nation and Karameikos, these knights will be stationed around strategic areas for protection. They are also assigned to the various Churches of Karameikos around the kingdom with their major concentration in Mirros and Threshold. They also serve as guards to ambassadors of the church and accompany them on any official business. They will not desert the official even in the face of death unless dismissed by a higher official. Though not a much used fighting force they work to maintain their readiness should the need arise and they be called into battle. An elite force of the Shield known as the Sword are assigned missions directly from the king, queen or patriarch of the church. These warriors openly wear their emblems of rank proudly for all to see and so aren't useful for any subterfuge work. Loyalty, honesty and obedience are the virtues they hope to embody. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:39:21 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics (was D&D to AD&D) At 03:15 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >>I was never all too thrilled with the Mystic, so I worked up a set of "martial artists" who don't deviate from the "norm" of the four main classes. It's not a single character class. It's a "cluster" of "high-level options" for each character class. In a nutshell, fighters can gain very limited clerical spells and some thief abilities. Clerics can gain some thief abilities and some fighter abilities. Thieves gain very limited magic-user spells and some fighter abilities. Magic-users gain some thief abilities and limited fighter abilities. >Some interesting ideas. Though with any big gains (I consider acquiring magic and clerical spells a gain) I'd have some large disadvantages. >One problem that I'd wouldn't mind knowing is, what exactly are the purpose of mystics? From their description in the rules, they sound like traveling monks but it doesn't mention Immortal beliefs of any type. The monks of medieval culture were scholars mainly, I thought. At least I know they were the ones that perserved knowledge during the dark ages. You are thinking of European monks. The Eastern ones...Tibet, Shaolin...were more of a philosophy. They banded together to meditate and for protection. Sometimes escaped convicts joined them in the temple for sanctuary or to hide from the law. Then, when bandits picked on the monks, the former criminals taught them to fight. This is simplified and does not nearly tell the whole story. But I am developing a band of mystics for Alphatia. You will find that the martial arts thrived among a persecuted people. Anytime a ruler came into the villages and took all the weapons, martial arts would be practiced in secret. Alot of ritual and mysticism surrounded the art because of its necessary secrecy and the privilege of someone trusting someone else to instruct in the way. Interesting isn't it? That anytime an emperor or lord wishes to consolidate his power over a people the first thing he does is take their weapons? In any case, I am going to include this mystic order of Alphatia in my descriptions of kingdoms of Alphatia and post them to the list. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:43:03 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics At 16.55 23/02/98 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: >I don't believe. Your assumption is not correct, as Rad might try to expand his sphere of influence. Theoretically yes, but IMO Rad main interest is to study the Radiance and the Radiance is only in Glantri... at least until Rafiel completes his reactor. Moreover I don't see how the faith in Rad can expand in the nations bordering Glantri. >On the other hand imagine a strong believer without the talent to become a magic-user. Rad may appear him and tell him about another way to casts spells, more dangerous, but profitable. What about going to the Great School of Magic in Glantri City instead? :-) I don't see the need of talent to become a magic user. You need talent to become a great magic user, but IMO everyone (even someone with Int = 3) can be a magic user. He won't be a good MU (in game terms he won't reach high levels), but he would still be a MU. In RW not all football players are good, maybe some of them would have done better in another sport, but nevertheless they play football. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:54:18 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] At 01:41 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >Daly wrote: >>Explain what you mean by "materialism". For instance, is America unique in materialistic goals? >Not unique in it but I think unique in the lengths we go. This may be a world wide problem but since I haven't traveled out of the states, I hesitate to make this point on other countries. But I find that in the US, personal gain is more important than honestly, charity and even family to many more Americans than is healthy. *sigh* You are probably right considering the current state of apathy that has existed for all this President's foibles. But it does not have to be so. We fantasy buffs I think are a pretty good crowd. And there are many who still practice moral lives. >>What did we act like before the Civil War? >I think before the Civil War we were a country that wasn't very closely tied together. After the Revolutionary War, we were a nation where the states themselves were the power. After the Civil War, the central government starting becoming more powerful and imposing its will over that of the individual states. I disagree that we weren't closely tied together. I think there was great love and loyalty for what "America" was. But you are correct that the federal government has gained alot of power since that time. >>But it is not a "government change". Elections produce new leaders in the same government. >At times, it seems as if we head into a totally different direction and outlook. Technically, it is a government change though still democratic form. Through our history if you compare the original government to the current one, it's possible to think these are two different countries though both are democracies. But then one could say the same thing anytime a new king rises to the throne. So are you suggesting that a government lives only so long as its current ruler? >>Of course one could argue that dwarves and gnomes are in the Industrial Age. But their industries don't really produce anything practical enough or in large enough quantities. >I think dwarves and gnomes are always in a stage of industry of some type from their origins but I have no idea while they haven't risen in technology since their creation. I think it is Immortal influence. I believe every now and then a dwarf comes up with something really great that is silenced for unknown reasons by the dwarven clerics or by the Immortal himself. >>I think we have to assume a reluctance to invent too much. The lessons of Blackmoor are remembered by the elves and the elves aren't likely to let the humans forget too quickly. >There's not been any hint at the elves taking any kind of action to stem off technology. Having never read anything about Blackmoor, I have only than vague ideas of what kind of technology they possessed. Nuclear, man. The elves definitely remember. And I think if the situation came up they would definitely take steps... >>Darokin is an innovative young country much like America was. Not that democracy began with us, on the contrary Rome started as a type of democracy. But I do use Darokin somewhat as a curiosity for the, as yet, foreign pcs. >>"What? They all get together and VOTE for their leaders?? That is rather odd. It makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable." >I've never saw Rome as a democracy though they did absorb some of the Greek ideas of government which is what I think of Darokin as emulating. It started as a constitutional monarch...which by the way lasted about 200 years *gulp* Some suggest that democracies cannot last any longer that that. *gulp* Anyway, there were 3 branches of government. The Senate, which originally was made up of anyone wealthy enough to own a horse; the king who was voted for by the senate; and the commoners who voted for their sentator. I am relating this from high school memory so maybe one of our Roman scholars can step in and save me from embarassing myself? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #107 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:26:43 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #108 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, February 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 108 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - The Isle of Gaity Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - Hin and the Shires Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! [MYSTARA] - Creature Query Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) Re: [MYSTARA] - Creature Query Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:59:37 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 01:01 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >Inconu@aol.com wrote: >>Just remember how rare paladins really are. If there are any in the Known World, then there's probably not too many of them. I agree that they should have granted powers like the druids of ad&d. Something at 3rd and 7th or whatever. Either way, i do believe that any religion should have the possibility to have paladins. Paladins shouldn't just be for goodly characters >>in my opinion. I think that a true warrior that has more faith in even Thanatos then some priests have....should get granted powers. Maybe instead of >>the immunites and protection from evil radius, they can obtain some of the unique abilities priests of certain Immortals gain. >We disagree on this point about any Immortal having paladins. Not because Immortals wouldn't grant certain abilities to their warrior devotees but the use of the word paladin. Paladin comes to the game with preconceived ideas of being just, loyal and good. But what ever they are called for other faiths, I think different abilities would add more to the uniqueness of any warrior/cleric not just the opposite of what the current paladin has. Maybe things like a fear aura or cause confusion one per day. I agree with you, if I am reading your post correctly. Paladins are my favorite class and I see them standing for something beyond what they are intended to stand for. They should continue to be played as moral, lawful, good, reverent soldiers of the church. It is difficult to play a paladin. As such it represents a PLAYER making a moral choice and being a moral example within the RP group. As such, I see any arguments of "how do you define morality?" as being worthless. Good is good and evil is evil. Let Thanatos have soldiers who will fight for destruction and the tearing down of systems. And the degredation of humanity... Paladins have to stand for something above senseless destruction and personal gain. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:08:24 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >Yup, and the "Knight in Shining Armor" who rides out to right wrongs and seek justice could be a chaotic force. After all, what if justice requires rebellion? Not in my opinion and illustrates one of the best disadvantages of paladins. They have to balance the duties of law and of good. Which makes it very easy to fail since they are reaching for a state that is not naturally occuring. The idea that law if not good is foriegn to them. They are slow to act when having to choose between following the law and doing good. Even if they wait too long to act, they've allowed evil to happen so they lose their ability. Acting against good (not personal percieved good) loses their ability and acting against the law strips them of their honor which will usually lead them to going against their own percieved good and thus losing their abilities even if only in their mind. That's one thing that makes them heroic and for their tales to last so long. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:11:29 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Isle of Gaity That's a neat idea (yep, neat ;) It would make a fun adventure for players to arrived before the trouble was discovered. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:31:23 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 06:08 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >>Yup, and the "Knight in Shining Armor" who rides out to right wrongs and seek justice could be a chaotic force. After all, what if justice requires rebellion? >Not in my opinion and illustrates one of the best disadvantages of paladins. They have to balance the duties of law and of good. Which makes it very easy to fail since they are reaching for a state that is not naturally occuring. The idea that law if not good is foriegn to them. They are slow to act when having to choose between following the law and doing good. Even if they wait too long to act, they've allowed evil to happen so they lose their ability. Acting against good (not personal percieved good) loses their ability and acting against the law strips them of their honor which will usually lead them to going against their own percieved good and thus losing their abilities even if only in their mind. That's one thing that makes them heroic and for their tales to last so long. It is tragic indeed when a paladin finds himself stuck between doing "the right thing" and doing what authority says is the right thing. The proper decision in my never to be humble opinion, is to go ahead and do the right thing and then present himself to the authorities afterward. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:59:17 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Daly wrote: >You are probably right considering the current state of apathy that has existed for all this President's foibles. But it does not have to be so. You are right, it doesn't. And I think most people would like to see things change but for some reason we just can't see where to begin. I don't have any children myself but I have a niece and I just find myself so afraid for her. Not just physically brutalities of the world but that it will rob her of her potential. Like it has so many young people, convincing them they are worthwhile by their bank accounts. >We fantasy buffs I think are a pretty good crowd. And there are many who still practice moral lives. There's always hope. The only thing I dislike is the need to be creative that produces money. The real benefits to our lives has always come from the dreamers that didn't dream of money. >I disagree that we weren't closely tied together. I think there was great love and loyalty for what "America" was. But you are correct that the federal government has gained alot of power since that time. I think there were quite a few people that thought they'd push the British out and they could determine their own lives. They were proud to be Americans as long as it didn't mean giving up any freedoms to another 'king'. >But then one could say the same thing anytime a new king rises to the throne. So are you suggesting that a government lives only so long as its current ruler? I think a king or a president defines that nation pretty much. What ever he (or she if a queen) overcomes and makes for their country are the ones we remember the best. So in a sense, yes I believe that a government last only as long as the current ruler. The next election or king, remakes the government and to a certain extent the country. But you can also divide a country on the times it lived through. The different decades reflected as much in our government as the man in office. >I think it is Immortal influence. I believe every now and then a dwarf comes up with something really great that is silenced for unknown reasons by the dwarven clerics or by the Immortal himself. While not exactly the same but I think we lose the need for god(s) as our understanding of the world around us increases. Are you suggesting that the Immortals are attempting to keep this from happening? BTW, this is not meant to start a religious debate with anyone just an observation of societies. >Nuclear, man. The elves definitely remember. And I think if the situation came up they would definitely take steps... I thought it was nuclear but I wasn't sure if Blackmoor developed it or the Beagle brought it. I think if the Immortals detected it they would take steps. Wasn't that one reason for WotI? >Some suggest that democracies cannot last any longer that that. (200 years) That might be true. I don't consider the current democracy we are under to be what the founding fathers intended. What has had the worst effect on it and made the people uninterested in participating? Money. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:15:55 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hin and the Shires At 08:42 AM 2/21/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-20 08:58:37 EST, you write: ><< Here's a point to note: the Shires are the only halfling nation in any >TSR-canon material I've ever seen; another unique point about Mystara. >Not true, even on Mystara there is another, the Shire of Leeha in Norwold at the western end of the Great Bay. The amount of material detailing this area isn't very in depth, but it is there. I would call this a community as opposed to a nation... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:10:01 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics << Haven't had a chance to see this book but I never thought it would include a monkish type from the title. >> Well, it's not dedicated to the monk class, but it has a few noteable tables, systems, and rules in it. NWPs like escape, night vision, assimilation, hold breath, water walking, and things like that. They have different fighting styles too, including: Jujutsu, Karate, Kung fu, Ninjutsu, and a few others. The notable difference is the lack of damage in this book. Most attacks are a measly 1pt - 1d4 pts of damage. They handled the mystic ability to hit magical creatures differently too. To hit Magical creatures...you must have a proficiency in "Chi", which anyone who's seen a few of the old Jackie Chan movies should know, that chi is life/spirit energy. Energy from within. IMC I use a table for Chi: Mastery - ------------ BS able to hit as a weapon +1 SK able to hit as a weapon +2 EX able to hit as a weapon +3 MS able to hit as a weapon +4 GM able to hit as a weapon +5 ...and finally, the book has lots of ideas for how to play ninja-type charecters, which i know isn't exactly like the monk, but it's easy to just adapt this to a mystic. Other than the low damage, something that really got me was omitting the AC bonus per level that the mystics get in OD&D. I think that that should definately remain. Well, there's a few ideas for you all to play with..... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:16:00 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Daly wrote: >It is tragic indeed when a paladin finds himself stuck between doing "the right thing" and doing what authority says is the right thing. The proper decision in my never to be humble opinion, is to go ahead and do the right thing and then present himself to the authorities afterward. Many of the stories I've read of paladins are of them losing their honor (by disobedience). Once place in a situation where they have to act like they once were (even if they don't believe in themselves, there's always someone around who does), they find that it was only in their mind that they had lost any ability. It's cliché but so are shining knights ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:19:13 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? << The main reason to bother is because, though it has a multiverse worked out, Mystara's version isn't likely to ever see print again. Which goes back to the question of how do we keep Mystara in print without it's rule system? >> Well, that seems to be one of the magic questions that no one can answer. I think that the only way Mystara stays in print is if the rules are partially/completely thrown out or hopefully at least converted. Which would obviously make the most dedicated fans want to lash out and go knocking at WOTC's door with the rest of the MML .......and of course a few torches, pitchforks, and let us not forget the barking dogs. But, it may be the only way. If Mystara ever completely comes back, I really doubt it will be the same Mystara that we all have grown up with... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:33:20 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism >>I think it is Immortal influence. I believe every now and then a dwarf comes up with something really great that is silenced for unknown reasons by the dwarven clerics or by the Immortal himself. >While not exactly the same but I think we lose the need for god(s) as our understanding of the world around us increases. Are you suggesting that the Immortals are attempting to keep this from happening? BTW, this is not meant to start a religious debate with anyone just an observation of societies. I don't agree with this. If you are referring to the real world, then I believe our need for God only increases. We need direction, higher order, and a need to strive for something worthwhile that will last beyond our years. Materialism just doesn't cut it... Back to the fantasy world: Yes, I believe the Immortals step in to keep advancement from happening. But I don't believe they do it because they fear losing followers to technology. Well, maybe some do actually. Especially if they base their followers on the Immortals ability to free them from hardships. But I tend to think of that kind of manipulation as being the nastier side of Immortals. >>Nuclear, man. The elves definitely remember. And I think if the situation came up they would definitely take steps... >I thought it was nuclear but I wasn't sure if Blackmoor developed it or the Beagle brought it. I think if the Immortals detected it they would take steps. Wasn't that one reason for WotI? Yep. The people of Blackmoor developed technology at an alarming rate. They traded with the people of the Beagle and learned from what theybought/borrowed/stole. If our world was less than ready for such power this century then Mystara was 10 times unready. They mixed magic and technology with a young glee, similar to gnomes, never thinking of the consequences. >>Some suggest that democracies cannot last any longer that that. (200 years) >That might be true. I don't consider the current democracy we are under to be what the founding fathers intended. You are absolutely correct. What has had the worst effect >on it and made the people uninterested in participating? Money. I don't know that I agree with this. Money/Power is the root of all evil in every society. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:33:40 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics << From their description in the rules, they sound like traveling monks but it doesn't mention Immortal beliefs of any type. >> I believe it was meant for a class that believes in inside power, rather than getting powers from other forces outside of yourself. I think praiseing an Immortal would be against their nature. They try to become one with themselves and find an inner tranquillity. Master their body.....and not allow temptations to sway what they truly beleive........i guess the best way to describe how i picture them is as very wise and deep people. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:39:51 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics << And the disadvantages given to Paladins in the D&D rules aren't large enough? I based this class's abilities pretty much on the paladin/avenger model. >> I don't think the disadvantages are enough to offset all the bonuses you wrote down earlier. Perhaps for starters...there should be higher minimum scores in certain areas... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:41:21 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics << The by-the-book mystics have as much place in Mystara as the AD&D 1st edition monks had in Greyhawk: There are always fan-boys out there with visions of Bruce Lee and that laughable actor whose initials are "D.C." >> I'm not sure exactly what you mean here....do you think there is no place for this culture...or are you saying that D&D misrepresented this culture. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:45:05 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision << But if the skeleton moves you'll see the heat produced by the friction of his feet... ehm bones on the ground. Creatures skilled with infravision (e.g. Shadow Elves, 'noids of the Broken Lands) should be able to notice even the smallest changes in the temperature pattern. I don't think that friction would be picked up by infravision....that just doesn't seem believeable... If infravision were that sensitive then seeing normal body heat would be so intense it would be hard to continue seeing at that point..... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:50:52 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision >Why don't we make a list of "cold" creatures? I don't know how many creatures would put out a cold or cool aura.....All cold-blooded creatures can't be picked up using infravision....or undead for that matter. All i can really think of off hand would be creatures from the Ice and Water Elemental planes. >BTW: what about a vampire in wolf or bat form, is he still "cold"? a vampire would still be undead in those forms I'd imagine. So, depending on how you chose undead to be seen using infravision, should be the same for vamp's wolf/bat form. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:06:21 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics At 08:41 PM 2/23/98 EST, you wrote: ><< The by-the-book mystics have as much place in Mystara as the AD&D 1st edition monks had in Greyhawk: There are always fan-boys out there with visions of Bruce Lee and that laughable actor whose initials are "D.C." >> >I'm not sure exactly what you mean here....do you think there is no place for this culture...or are you saying that D&D misrepresented this culture. Even though I am not the one who wrote that comment I will give an answer: Yes. The culture represented is a misrepresentation of the Tibetan culture or society. It could be seen as a "fantastical representation of the West's image of Asian culture". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:05:09 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos << Here's one idea for paladins in Mystara that could use some fleshing out. This is a fighting order established by the Church of Karameikos after splitting from the Church of Thyatis. It uses the AD&D PHB 2nd Edition paladin experience table. The abilities gained are listed below which follow a gradual increase in power better than having it all at 1st level, in my opinion. >> Great ideas galwylin. Just an couple opinions to help you flesh out some loose ends. In.....i believe the PH...when it talks about Paladins it talks of how few there really are. And i think it refers to the Knights of the Round Table as being one of the largest contingents of Paladins ever grouped together....and if i'm correct...i believe there were 12...of them.. give or take a couple. I think it would be incredible to have something like this in Mystara...and maybe even in Karameikos....but the amount of Paladins you suggested far exceeds that amount..and i believe that Paladins are a rare class that's usually given the upmost respect. Given this....my suggestion would be to maybe lessen the amount you originally came up with, and maybe give them more power. How about if they don't work for the King or Patriach? They are a unit that has sworn to protect Karameikos...has a strict code of honor. Has a primary leader that proposes votes to the rest of the unit. I'm sure they would be in contact with the King and Patriach after proving themselves time and time again. Think of the countrymen.....how they would probably back these guys up....Bards songs would be exploding with the names of this unit's make-up.....A group everyone could look up too...... okay i've babbled enough on this one... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:30:56 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos At 09:05 PM 2/23/98 EST, you wrote: ><< Here's one idea for paladins in Mystara that could use some fleshing >out. This is a fighting order established by the Church of Karameikos after splitting from the Church of Thyatis. It uses the AD&D PHB 2nd Edition paladin experience table. The abilities gained are listed below which follow a gradual increase in power better than having it all at 1st level, in my opinion. >> >Great ideas galwylin. Just an couple opinions to help you flesh out some loose ends. In.....i believe the PH...when it talks about Paladins it talks of how few there really are. And i think it refers to the Knights of the Round Table as being one of the largest contingents of Paladins ever grouped together....and if i'm correct...i believe there were 12...of them.. give or take a couple. I think it would be incredible to have something like this in Mystara...and maybe even in Karameikos....but the amount of Paladins you suggested far exceeds that amount..and i believe that Paladins are a rare class that's usually given the upmost respect. Given this....my suggestion would be to maybe lessen the amount you originally came up with, and maybe give them more power. You have some strong arguments. However, I would say since Mystara is generally a more magic heavy world then paladins may very well be more numerous. Not only that, but Karameikos is a prime gathering place for paladins...a kind of Mecca if you will! Certainly in Darokin or Vestland for example, paladins would indeed be rare. >.Bards songs would be exploding with the names of this unit's make-up..... This is another good point. Did you know the earliest reference to King Arthur and his knights is an obscure reference in a bardic death ballad? It basically lists those knights present at the last battle and ends with the line: "...and the world's enigma, Arthur's grave." So the location of King Arthur's grave has always been considered a mystery, even in this earliest reference. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:52:11 +1100 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] A Post You NEED to Read! >Here's what I'd like to see (and it will need some type of leadership)... more net projects for Mystara. There are some great ideas from people but they sometimes get overlooked because they just consist of a post here or there. If no one collects them then they're gone from any newcomers to the list or to those that don't have a chance to give them the attention they deserve because of time constraints. The recent drinks of Mystara, Jenni's B1 posts, and Matthew's Cynidicea city are recent examples of lost treasures to those that didn't receive (or just joined the list) these items. Posts such as those you mentioned are the sort of thing that are placed on the Mailing List Archive homepage and therefore are not lost. However, as you suggest some threads are or may be lost if the final culmination of a thread is not posted in one coherent form at the end of the day. Shawn Stanley http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:59:28 +1100 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Creature Query I just obtained a copy of the original creature cruicible the other day and like always I got easily distracted by new ideas which came from within. I therefore have a query about two of the creatures that are detailed within the book, I would like to know where these creatures were originally detailed. I am interested in the Cryion (sp?) and a group of humans known as Quariks (sp?). If someone who knows could tell me what source these creatures originally appeared in (if any) that would be greatly appreciated. Shawn Stanley http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:59:28 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) At 12:36 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >Well, PWA3 does state that the ones given are only the eight largest floating continents, but there are many more. Now, an interesting contradiction does arise between this and the Hollow World boxed set. According to the boxed set, the Hiakrai (one of the Neathar tribes) lives on the floating continent of Hiak-lor, which is described as being the lowest and largest of the floating continents. This continent isn't mentioned in PWA3. Even assuming that the Hiakrai just use a different name for it than other parts of the Hollow World, it still doesn't work with the information in PWA3. If one ignores Alphatia (which wasn't present in 1000 AC, the time of the boxed set), the largest floating continent is Chijioke, but this one also has the highest altitude. This is most likely due to an oversight on the part of the writers but it does leave an interesting question: did something happen to Hiak-lor between 1000 and 1012? Maybe Thanatos did something to it (accidentally, of course) while he was fooling around with the whole corrupting the Spell of Preservation thing (detailed in the Blood Brethren trilogy of modules). Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:09:25 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Creature Query On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, stan wrote: >I am interested in the Cryion (sp?) and a group of humans known as Quariks (sp?). >If someone who knows could tell me what source these creatures originally appeared in (if any) that would be greatly appreciated. As far as I have been able to determine, the first appearance of these creatures was in the Creature Catalog. They aren't in any of the modules I own (and I'm only missing a few of the Basic modules), nor any accessory that I've ever seen. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:14:29 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 05:53 PM 2/23/98 EST, you wrote: >I guess it's sort of like the Avenger class from OD&D.......and....well.... there never really was a neutral paladin-type created, but i just think that the 3 sides should all be able to get special abilities for the bests of thier kind. Bruce Heard created the Druidic Knight in Robrenn for the Princess Ark series; they're a neutral paladin/avenger variant. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:19:29 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos At 05:31 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >Here's one idea for paladins in Mystara that could use some fleshing out. This is a fighting order established by the Church of Karameikos after splitting from the Church of Thyatis. It uses the AD&D PHB 2nd Edition paladin experience table. The abilities gained are listed below which follow a gradual increase in power better than having it all at 1st level, in my opinion. What about the Order of the Griffon? Where do they fit into this idea? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #108 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, February 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 109 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Dungeons and Democracy [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Creature Query Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead (was: Random Thoughts) [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) [MYSTARA] - Rockhome Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Rockhome ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:24:13 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Dungeons and Democracy At 06:54 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >*gulp* >Some suggest that democracies cannot last any longer that that. >*gulp* Britain has been a democracy for a long, long time, far more than 200 years, monarchy notwithstanding. I'll defer to the Brits on the list, but wasn't Magna Carta (1215 AD) what started the whole thing? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:42:36 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Paladins At 06:08 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >Not in my opinion and illustrates one of the best disadvantages of paladins. They have to balance the duties of law and of good. Which makes it very easy to fail since they are reaching for a state that is not naturally occuring. The idea that law if not good is foriegn to them. They are slow to act when having to choose between following the law and doing good. Even if they wait too long to act, they've allowed evil to happen so they lose their ability. Acting against good (not personal percieved good) loses their ability and acting against the law strips them of their honor which will usually lead them to going against their own percieved good and thus losing their abilities even if only in their mind. That's one thing that makes them heroic and for their tales to last so long. A good paladin (like there's any other kind?) recognizes the difference between a good law and a bad law. If a law is not in the interests of the common good, the paladin will take whatever steps are required to have that law removed. He might not break it himself, but he will not support it at all. Here's a thought. I saw the Untouchables (with Costner and Connery) for the first time a while back, and Eliott Ness sounds a lot like a paladin to me. He obeyed the prohibition law to the fullest extent, and stayed within the law as much as possible while taking down Capone's organization. At the end of the movie, after Capone's been put away, reporters ask what Ness will do now that Prohibition is being revoked. His response: "I think I'll have a drink." He's not breaking the law, since the law's been removed. Anyway, back to the thread. Paladins are not known for hesitating; if anything, they rush in where archons fear to tread. To say they'll sit around debating with themselves over a bad law is simply inaccurate. Paladins will always do good, and will stay within the laws as much as possible to promote the cause of good. Look at the penalties for alignment infractions; chaotic actions require atonement; evil actions cause permanent demotion to fighter. Example: let's look at a society based on Spain in the fifteenth century. Two really big things happening here; one is the discovery of America, which doesn't happen until the end. The other is the Spanish Inquisition, in which peasants and some nobles were tortured and forced to admit to heretical acts they had not committed. This was considered by the crown and the church acceptable practice, since it both 'purified' the populace of heretical sentiment, and brought in significant amounts of cash (since the Church confiscated the belongings of heretics). I defy anyone to say that a paladin would have gone along with this. A knight, yes, since the knights were mainly subject to the crown. But paladins, by definition, will not support unjust laws. In our fictional society, the paladins would work to stop the practice of torture. They might even help some people escape. They would speak out against the Inquisition, even at the risk of their own lives. There's no ambiguity here in the paladin's mind, no question about whether or not to obey the law. The law is wrong, and the paladin will NOT obey it, even on pain of death. If he is killed by the church, so be it; let his god judge him in person and find him in the right. Paladins are the ultimate soldier of right and good. If the law is wrong, the paladin will stay on the side of right. Glen Sprigg *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:48:38 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 06:59 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Nuclear, man. The elves definitely remember. And I think if the situation came up they would definitely take steps... >I thought it was nuclear but I wasn't sure if Blackmoor developed it or the Beagle brought it. I think if the Immortals detected it they would take steps. Wasn't that one reason for WotI? The Beagle did bring the technology, and the Blackmoorians learned it from a renegade engineer on the Beagle. Benekander tried to stop him, and the Beagle exploded (not really accurate, but I'm trying to be brief; check WotI for Benekander's background). As for the reason for WotI, it had nothing to do with technology; they were just having a spitting match and it got a little out of hand (huge war, destruction of Alfheim and the Broken Lands, sinking of Alphatia, etc.). They're like children sometimes, aren't they? And the Old Ones finally had to show up and spank Ixion and Rad to end it. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:50:29 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 08:19 PM 2/23/98 EST, you wrote: >Well, that seems to be one of the magic questions that no one can answer. I think that the only way Mystara stays in print is if the rules are partially/completely thrown out or hopefully at least converted. Which would obviously make the most dedicated fans want to lash out and go knocking at WOTC's door with the rest of the MML .......and of course a few torches, pitchforks, and let us not forget the barking dogs. But, it may be the only way. If Mystara ever completely comes back, I really doubt it will be the same Mystara that we all have grown up with... Ah, but we'll help WotC out with the relaunch of Mystara, making it bigger and better than ever! The Realms shall fall, Greyhawk shall collapse, and Ravenloft shall disappear into the mists. Mystara shall rule over all! Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:02:58 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Creature Query At 01:59 PM 2/24/98 +1100, you wrote: >I just obtained a copy of the original creature cruicible the other day and like always I got easily distracted by new ideas which came from within. I therefore have a query about two of the creatures that are detailed within the book, I would like to know where these creatures were originally detailed. >I am interested in the Cryion (sp?) and a group of humans known as Quariks (sp?). >If someone who knows could tell me what source these creatures originally appeared in (if any) that would be greatly appreciated. Do you mean the original Creature Catalogue (AC9)? If so, the Cryion first appears in this supplement, as do the Quariks. They were created for the catalogue, not taken from any other sources (as the Brain Collector or Rakasta were). Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:09:09 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Inconu@aol.com wrote: >Well, that seems to be one of the magic questions that no one can answer. I think that the only way Mystara stays in print is if the rules are partially/completely thrown out or hopefully at least converted. Which would obviously make the most dedicated fans want to lash out and go knocking at WOTC's door with the rest of the MML .......and of course a few torches, pitchforks, and let us not forget the barking dogs. But, it may be the only way. If Mystara ever completely comes back, I really doubt it will be the same Mystara that we all have grown up with... This makes me wonder. Does anyone recall the original creators of Mystara (the Known World) or those that contributed to it (besides Bruce and Aaron who aren't with TSR any longer I believe)? Just got me thinking that if it did return, there's a lot of background that could easily be overlooked. If TSR goes with a re-release then it's very likely that it won't be the same we all know unless they have someone on board that knows the setting without attempting to read through it in one sitting. Casually glancing through the Gazatteers, I see quite a few different writers probably indicating that there has never been anyone holding all its secrets. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:55:37 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 08:33 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >What has had the worst effect >>on it and made the people uninterested in participating? Money. >I don't know that I agree with this. Money/Power is the root of all evil in every society. To properly quote the Bible, "For the love of money is the root of all evils*" Money itself isn't a bad thing, it's just the way people react to it that causes all the problems. Personally I wouldn't want to have to trade steaks for gasoline, or whatever would be needed in a barter society. Money is a great invention. But like nuclear power, it has a nasty side, too. Glen Sprigg *1 Timothy, 6:10 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:20:05 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Daly wrote: >I don't agree with this. If you are referring to the real world, then I believe our need for God only increases. We need direction, higher order, and a need to strive for something worthwhile that will last beyond our years. Materialism just doesn't cut it... Comparing modern society with any primitive society (or advanced one, depending on your idea of societies) religion plays a much lesser role as a society advances in technology. Materialism can exist in both types since it's not depended on technology. >Back to the fantasy world: Yes, I believe the Immortals step in to keep advancement from happening. But I don't believe they do it because they fear losing followers to technology. Well, maybe some do actually. Especially if they base their followers on the Immortals ability to free them from hardships. But I tend to think of that kind of manipulation as being the nastier side of Immortals. Maybe not a nastier side but definitely a recognized need to survive. While not altruistic, its a common trait of many. >Yep. The people of Blackmoor developed technology at an alarming rate. They traded with the people of the Beagle and learned from what they bought/borrowed/stole. If our world was less than ready for such power this century then Mystara was 10 times unready. They mixed magic and technology with a young glee, similar to gnomes, never thinking of the consequences. If you just take half the time human kind developed nuclear power in the real world, this makes Mystara very old indeed. >I don't know that I agree with this. Money/Power is the root of all evil in every society. The love of money/power, really. But my view was that people don't see their input as important because money can buy votes legally. They say you can't but I can't believe that the number of lobbyist don't supply trips and vacations to congressmen just because they're nice folk. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:58:59 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Inconu@aol.com wrote: >Great ideas galwylin. Just an couple opinions to help you flesh out some loose ends. In.....i believe the PH...when it talks about Paladins it talks of how few there really are. And i think it refers to the Knights of the Round Table as being one of the largest contingents of Paladins ever grouped together....and if i'm correct...i believe there were 12...of them.. give or take a couple. I think it would be incredible to have something like this in Mystara...and maybe even in Karameikos....but the amount of Paladins you suggested far exceeds that amount..and i believe that Paladins are a rare class that's usually given the upmost respect. Given this....my suggestion would be to maybe lessen the amount you originally came up with, and maybe give them more power. Good points. >How about if they don't work for the King or Patriach? They are a unit that has sworn to protect Karameikos...has a strict code of honor. Has a primary leader that proposes votes to the rest of the unit. Could you provide a little more of what you mean? >I'm sure they would be in contact with the King and Patriach after proving themselves time and time again. Think of the countrymen.....how they would probably back these guys up....Bards songs would be exploding with the names of this unit's make-up.....A group everyone could look up too...... Yea, I saw them as the best a Karameikian warrior could be. Daly wrote: >You have some strong arguments. However, I would say since Mystara is generally a more magic heavy world then paladins may very well be more numerous. Not only that, but Karameikos is a prime gathering place for paladins...a kind of Mecca if you will! I think so too since Karameikos is a young and probably still looking for immigrates. Glen Sprigg wrote: >What about the Order of the Griffon? Where do they fit into this idea? They could just be a small branch of the Order since the Order is composed of warriors and clerics. If all of you would like, I'd appreciate the help to better detail them and build a stronger tie with the Order of the Griffon. And if you have any idea of other names, I'd love to hear them since I'm just not happy with Sheild and Sword. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:09:38 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Glen Sprigg wrote: >A good paladin (like there's any other kind?) recognizes the difference between a good law and a bad law. If a law is not in the interests of the common good, the paladin will take whatever steps are required to have that law removed. He might not break it himself, but he will not support it at all. The only difference I think we disagree on is the fact that they would do good over law. To me, the lawful aspect of them is as important as the good they do. Since good is so very much subject to self perception, I think the paladin looks to the law for guidince to do the good they hope to accomplish. I meant to convey the hesitation aspect of them only when confronted with having to decide between doing good and following the law. A chaotic good character would be able to act faster since they would never consider the law and the neutral good would be about the same. The pressures on a paladin should be pretty hard since they aren't your average warrior and have much more they are trying consider. Law is as important to a paladin as his life and his actions would reflect that. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:20:25 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Daly pontificated: >It is tragic indeed when a paladin finds himself stuck between doing "the right thing" and doing what authority says is the right thing. The proper decision in my never to be humble opinion, is to go ahead and do the right thing and then present himself to the authorities afterward. I don't see much of a problem for the paladin here. My interpretation of paladins is that they are basicly the sword of their god (or immortal, I use the terms interchangably). Therefore, they will always do what they believe is right based on their faith. And they will continue to have their power as long as their god agrees on what they are doing. If this meant they have to go against the King or even higher authority within the church, then they will do so. This also meant that paladins among different faith might not have the same interpretion of what is good. For example, the paladin follows the immortal of justice and revenge (can't spell her name), will probably lean more on the side of law, while paladin follows more peaceful immortals might even have the disadventage of can not kill or can not start a fight. In the computer game Ultima, in the character generation, one of the questions asked is something like you have been tracking a killer for years, trying to bring him to justice. After you find him, you found out he is a good person now, and is the only support for a little girl, what would you do. If faced with this situation, the first paladin I described above will bring him back for trial, while the the second one might let him go. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | UVa, Material Science Dept. |"Earth is too small and fragile a basket IPM Lab | for Mankind to keep all his eggs in." (804) 984-3789 | -- Robert Anson Heinlein *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:24:01 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Inconu@aol.com pontificated: >I don't think the disadvantages are enough to offset all the bonuses you wrote down earlier. Perhaps for starters...there should be higher minimum scores in certain areas... I really don't like the idea of high minumum abilities for certain classes. I felt it contribute to power gaming, as it gives the player idea that higher scores are better, as it allow you to play the more powerful classes. And I don't like been shut out from playing certain classes, just because the dice rolls didn't turn out high enough. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:26:39 +0200 (EET) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts >Fabrizio wrote: >But if the skeleton moves you'll see the heat produced by the friction of his feet... ehm bones on the ground. >Creatures skilled with infravision (e.g. Shadow Elves, 'noids of the Broken Lands) should be able to notice even the smallest changes in the temperature pattern. Inconu wrote: >I don't think that friction would be picked up by infravision....that just doesn't seem believeable... If infravision were that sensitive then seeing normal body heat would be so intense it would be hard to continue seeing at that point..... Well I would surely side with Fabrizio. Even the modern heat-cameras can detect friction, as it does generate warmth. And, as far as I know, normal body heat is generated mostly by friction... But the real question is that how accurate is the infravision. I would agree, that an elf COULD see the friction caused by the dragging steps of on undead. If he is dragging them and causing any friction that is. It just that Would he see it. Surely, if he's looking just for that. But who would be? After all, could You see a small stone moving an inch on the floor? Would you notist it? I dont think that I would, unless it kept some nose too. And as an added difficulty, I dont think that the landscape one sees with Infravision is so stabile, as to allow one to see so small movements. Just like our londscape is changed with leaves moving in the trees, dead leaves flying with wind, dust rolling on the floor etc, so is the infrasight too. Cold wind rolling in the air, water on the cavewalls, plants moving etc. And I dont think that most undeads nor other 'cold creatures woul drag their feet or otherwise cause great frictions while hunting. Stupid undeads maybe, but not the rally dangerous ones. >>Why don't we make a list of "cold" creatures? Nice idea... Here what comes to my mind: - -Cold blooded animals (lizards, snakes, fish) - -Cold blooded monsters (lizardmen) - -Undeads, constructions (with some exceptions like pronzegolem etc) - -Some elementals maybe And lets not forget the really cold creatures that are hard to notest in cold climates... - -White dragons - -Iceqiant - -Monsters made of ice (elementals) >>BTW: what about a vampire in wolf or bat form, is he still "cold"? I would suggest that he is. There is no reason to think otherwise. Afterall he doesn't change into a living bat or wolf. Just rambling... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:30:55 +0100 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead (was: Random Thoughts) Alex Benson wrote: <> You maybe forget one thing, Alex: infravision only works in absence of light. And since the undead don't leave any infrared trace, demihumans cannot spot them: they simply don't exist for infravision. This means it is not a boon, rather it's a bane (and i've always used it this way). Infravision cannot be used to detect invisible creatures nor creatures whose body temperature is equal to temperature of the surrounding space. Likewise, undead, who do not emanate heat, are invisible to infravision unless they block a obvious (visible) source of heat (say they pass in front of a candlelight or an oven). See the article about Infravision by Roger E. Moore in Dragon #211. PS: i think u could quote some passages if u have it, Brizio. DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:31:25 +0100 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) Jeff Daly wrote: <> Uhmm.. has it these effects over alphatians? They aren't able to create new magics and further their studies? I don't think so. You see, the essence of the SoP is that it has been designed to preserve the features of each particular culture, and givent the fact the alphatian society is based on magic and magical research, then it should actually PROMOTE it to mantain alphatia unique. Also, alphatia (as proposed by many) had in the outer world the role of balance of power in eastern Brun, and this role has been paricularly stressed with its arrival in the HW. Alphatia is now the HW United Nations, as stated clearly by Eriadna in PWA1012, after Jafilia's death. If the Immortals had thought even for a moment that they couldn't direct Alphatia this way, i don't think they would have reproduced it and placed it in the HW (with the memories of the past in the minds of the most powerful people), where all the other cultures are easy game for Alphatia's firepower. Alphatia is now more than ever the GOOD guy in Mystara. <<4) In the coming years the Alphatians become the supreme power in the HW and re-establish contact with the outer world. 5) They will actively seek to destroy the Spell of Preservation.>> Don't agree for the motives listed above. And besides, they cannot. That's all for me. DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 1998 11:04:16 -0300 From: 3@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - Rockhome >Rockhome has several clans. Here are brief descriptions of them, from GAZ6 (AC 1000) >Buhrodar: Philosophical, clerical >Everast: Aristocracy, professional rulership; King Everast is from this cla Hurwarf: Isolationists >Skarrad: Technological development >Syrklist: Mining, trade >Torkrest: Military might >Wyrwarf: protection of agricultural families These are the primary interests of the clans. There is a Senate in addition to the king, with each clan sending a varied number of senators. No clan has a majority of senators, but the Torkrest and the Syrklist clans have the most (49 and 51 respectively), controlling a total of 40% of the senate between them. >What else did you want to know? Tell me about the cities in Rockhome and how they see the strange, each of the characters. Thanks Jonathan Leibiusky *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:13:46 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << Bruce Heard created the Druidic Knight in Robrenn for the Princess Ark series; they're a neutral paladin/avenger variant. >> Really? i never heard of that..... was there a set of game mechanics for creating one of these....it sounds interesting. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:09:41 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics << Even though I am not the one who wrote that comment I will give an answer: Yes. The culture represented is a misrepresentation of the Tibetan culture or society. It could be seen as a "fantastical representation of the West's image of Asian culture". >> Okay, if that is what the original writer intended than i do agree with it. Only certain parts were stressed and many parts weren't focused on. TSR should have put out much more effort when creating the class....but then again it was probably one of their "lets see if the public likes this" type of idea. but either way....they didn't really do a complete job on it. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:32:59 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics << And I don't like been shut out from playing certain classes, just because the dice rolls didn't turn out high enough. >> I do think there should be minimums for special classes like the Mystic proposal that was made. If a certain class is rare....there is a reason for it. One of the reasons should be because most people just can't attain what a certain few can. Either they can't grasp a concept, can't work out the mechanics, aren't strong or fast enough etc... It shouldn't be looked at as being denied a class...just as if you have higher scores you are open to new possibilities....this Mystic class for example.....Paladin class...Specialist classes.....things like that. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:20:05 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins << In our fictional society, the paladins would work to stop the practice of torture. They might even help some people escape. They would speak out against the Inquisition, even at the risk of their own lives. >> Don't you think there is a point at which they'll turn back though? In the face of something like the Inquisition....where just stateing your opinion could cost your life. I think they would go about it in a much more indirect manner. Something like rallying the masses of the country to stand by their side and speak up for themselves. That's why a Charisma 17 (in ad&d) is required to be a paladin. They're inspiring and have the potential to recruit many to aid them at almost any time. I just think it's one thing to be a matyr or a hero.....and yet another to be suicidal. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:53:44 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rockhome At 11:04 AM 2/24/98 -0300, you wrote: >Tell me about the cities in Rockhome and how they see the strange, each of the characters. Sigh... Okay, the cities. Dengar is the capital city, with both an Upper and a Lower section. King Everast lives here, as does the Senate. Other cities include Evermur, mainly Wyrwarf, Syrklist, and Skarrad inhabitants; Ferryway, a human-dwarf settlement on Lake Stahl; Greenston, mostly humans who grow food; Kurdal, mostly Wyrwarf dwarves; Smaggeft, mostly Skarrad dwarves; Stahl, the second largest city with a large Torkrest gethering, and three military forts, Fort Denwarf, Fort Evekarr, and Karrak Castle. I'm not sure what you meant by the last part of the post. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #109 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:10:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #110 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Tuesday, February 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 110 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:56:12 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 07:13 AM 2/24/98 EST, you wrote: ><< Bruce Heard created the Druidic Knight in Robrenn for the Princess Ark >series; they're a neutral paladin/avenger variant. >> >Really? i never heard of that..... was there a set of game mechanics for creating one of these....it sounds interesting. The information is in Dragon #177 and 178. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:58:51 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics At 07:09 AM 2/24/98 EST, you wrote: >Okay, if that is what the original writer intended than i do agree with it. Only certain parts were stressed and many parts weren't focused on. TSR should have put out much more effort when creating the class....but then again it was probably one of their "lets see if the public likes this" type of idea. but either way....they didn't really do a complete job on it. The monk class was done properly in Oriental Adventures, which I would like to convert to Mystara if possible. However, I have seen mention of MOrient on this list, but I've been unable to access anything about it; the link always comes back as invalid. Obviously, the Oriental adventures would fit best on Ochalea and Patera, but if this has already been done I'd like to take a look before I devote ungodly hours to converting OA to Mystara-compatibility. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:01:44 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins At 07:20 AM 2/24/98 EST, you wrote: ><< In our fictional >society, the paladins would work to stop the practice of torture. They might even help some people escape. They would speak out against the Inquisition, even at the risk of their own lives. >> >Don't you think there is a point at which they'll turn back though? In the face of something like the Inquisition....where just stateing your opinion could cost your life. I think they would go about it in a much more indirect manner. A paladin will not back down from his beliefs no matter what; doing so would be his downfall and cause the loss of paladinhood. Even if it cost him his life, he will not back down. Something like rallying the masses of the country to stand by their >side and speak up for themselves. That's why a Charisma 17 (in ad&d) is required to be a paladin. They're inspiring and have the potential to recruit many to aid them at almost any time. I just think it's one thing to be a matyr or a hero.....and yet another to be suicidal. If the paladins stood up en masse against the church's policy of torture and persecution, the church would be well-advised to sit up and take notice before the paladins lead a revolution against the church heirarchy. Remember, the paladin's faith is directly in his god, and if the church is going against the basic tenets of the faith, the church is in the wrong, not the paladin. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:16:27 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-23 16:45:50 EST, you write: << Chris Paul Billows wrote: >By the way, what is the Classic D&D boxed set put out... this is considered the >sixth and last edition of the rules... does it contain all the rules (Basic to >Immortals)? I don't have that product but from the '94 catalog description, I got the impression is was a smaller box version of the large black box. I would guess then that it only went from 1-5 levels. >> The Classic D&D Set covers levels 1-5. Essentially it is the same as the previous Rules Sets that covered the same levels. Monster descriptions are almost exactly the same. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:58 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D >In a message dated 98-02-23 16:45:50 EST, you write: ><< Chris Paul Billows wrote: >>By the way, what is the Classic D&D boxed set put out... this is considered >the >>sixth and last edition of the rules... does it contain all the rules (Basic >to >>Immortals)? >I don't have that product but from the '94 catalog description, I got the impression is was a smaller box version of the large black box. I would guess then that it only went from 1-5 levels. >> >The Classic D&D Set covers levels 1-5. Essentially it is the same as the previous Rules Sets that covered the same levels. Monster descriptions are almost exactly the same. Did it include the rules for healing damage by resting, spell disruption by an attack, acid damage, or equipment damage which were in the '81 rules but dropped in '83 (Red Book) and thus left out of the RC? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:23:49 CET From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia >>HW, except for Eriadna and a few others. So how could they investigate >>the destruction of Alphatia etc? To use the example of the Azcans again >>(but you can take the Traldar as well, eg) they never tried to find out >>what happened to their old world. Likewise, most Alphatians, even if they remember the old world, would not even imagine they're still on th= >e >>same planet! >Most Alphatians could believe that this is the world they came to from their original home. If they gave them memories of their second homeland being destroyed, we might have a whole different mindset from anyhting to apathy to eat, drink, merry. Yes, that's a good idea, they believe they made landfall from Old Alphatia directly to HW. Hmm. only high level characters remember their passage in the outer world. I like this. >>in the HW. Well, believe me, this is/will be covered in the net almanac >>too. >When's it due out? End of March. (or beginning of April) >>>I think the Immortals may have unleashed something they might not be able to control into the Hollow World. >>=20 >>I don't think so. I think they knew very well what they were doing. >Dieties are notorious for doing things that cause problems later on in which they have to fix. Probably the reason they do things wrong to first place so no one ever gets the chance to no longer need them. :) Well, there will be some sort of fix, yes. Though maybe it was scheduled to be that way from the beginning, so that it's not a fix but latest part of the immortal intervention to place the Alphatians in the HW (they had not enough PPs to do it all at the same time). >>Why would Alphatia's goal be to destroy the SoP? (more thoughts on this >>in another post). >Maybe not a 'We're going to destroy this spell' attitude but human nature usually is such that they keep trying to go farther until they break whatever restraints were on them for no other reason other than they can. The preservation part of the SoP is not a problem to the Alphatians: it does not prevent them from doing magical research, quite the contrary! ;) OTOH, the magical restriction part of the SoP is a problem. It prevents the Alphatians from using all of the spells they once knew, and reduces the number of potential spellcasters with the 16 restriction. Though one should note that the Alphatians are still by far the most powerful MUs in the HW, and they have access to many spells other HW denizens don't. Anyway, this will be (partially) fixed. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:29:35 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-23 17:14:38 EST, you write: << HW, except for Eriadna and a few others. So how could they investigate >the destruction of Alphatia etc? To use the example of the Azcans again (but you can take the Traldar as well, eg) they never tried to find out what happened to their old world. Likewise, most Alphatians, even if they remember the old world, would not even imagine they're still on the same planet! Most Alphatians could believe that this is the world they came to from their original home. If they gave them memories of their second homeland being destroyed, we might have a whole different mindset from anyhting to apathy to eat, drink, merry.>> I thought the Immortals left some of the sinking damage to hint that a massive earthquake was cause for the deaths. This is a weak explanation, but given the memory alterations it is feasible for the short term. >>I think the Immortals may have unleashed something they might not be able to control into the Hollow World. >I don't think so. I think they knew very well what they were doing. Dieties are notorious for doing things that cause problems later on in which they have to fix. Probably the reason they do things wrong to first place so no one ever gets the chance to no longer need them.>> I agree. IMO and hinted as such by WotI the Immortals were hurried to save what they could of Alphatia. Thus mistakes are going to surface from the chaotis (unpredictable) Alphatians. >Why would Alphatia's goal be to destroy the SoP? (more thoughts on this in another post). Maybe not a 'We're going to destroy this spell' attitude but human nature usually is such that they keep trying to go farther until they break whatever restraints were on them for no other reason other than they can. Not neccessarily destroy it but adapt to its constraints. Anyone thought that the SoP is reaching its limit. When Alphatia appeared some of the tabooed spells became a reality again (if you knew them) Perhaps the influx of Alphatians exceeded the Immortal spell controls on the HW. I do not think the Immortals thought that so many people would be forced into residence in HW. Thus the SoP may not be sufficient to keep everyone in line with the Immortals' original scheme. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:36:26 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts In a message dated 98-02-23 17:47:09 EST, you write: << >The Infravision is described as showing the differences in the temperature. Usually this is pictured so that warmer shows red, colder blue. A living thing, radiating heat would show red while the wall behind would show blue or pale blue in a cave. Then if you have an undead skeleton, that does not generate warmth, it would show the same blue as the surroundings, and You could not see it with the same backround. But if the skeleton moves you'll see the heat produced by the friction of his feet... ehm bones on the ground. Creatures skilled with infravision (e.g. Shadow Elves, 'noids of the Broken Lands) should be able to notice even the smallest changes in the temperature pattern.>> I am unsure if a skeletons feet would cause noticable friction. IIRC undead make no noise in moving. And since noise lays with the striking of feet to stone, the friction should also be lacking. >But then again, liches (if one can speak about them in general, as they shoul IMHO allways wary a bit) might generate some warmth themselves should they want to. There is no reason to think that these magic-invested monsters would be punished with the coldness of the grave. In fact I could easily believe them to be wery warm even hot to infravision. And still they could have a 'death cold grip' when touching a mortal... Why don't we make a list of "cold" creatures? BTW: what about a vampire in wolf or bat form, is he still "cold"? >> And wouldn't a cold crerature show due to its lack of throwing heat. Sort of a cold outline against a warmer background. As for animal form vamps, I see no reason why the animal form would differ from the humanoid form. Dead is dead. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:41:42 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins << A paladin will not back down from his beliefs no matter what; doing so would be his downfall and cause the loss of paladinhood. Even if it cost him his life, he will not back down. >> i agree, but by getting the masses to help him....wouldn't be backing down. It would make more sense, have a better chance of suceeding, and have a voice to back up his belief. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:01:26 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Hi there! I recently picked up a copy of "The Road to Urik", and it set me to thinking. The main possibility of converting the module would be to use it during the Master's invasion of Darokin. It would require extensive rewriting, however. Some other modules: U1: Place it around the Malpheggi Swamp in Darokin, when I run it, I'm going to use it with I2 I2: Set it in the Malpheggi swamp, and add a small bit to Mystaran History, and it works. Does anyone have any other AD&D modules that can easily be converted to Mystara? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:48:13 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision In a message dated 98-02-23 21:05:37 EST, you write: << > Why don't we make a list of "cold" creatures? I don't know how many creatures would put out a cold or cool aura.....All cold-blooded creatures can't be picked up using infravision....or undead for that matter.>> Even cool or cold aura creatures would show as cold areas in the thermal range. Unless the whole area is the same temperature. And the temperature is constantly maintained. Cold-blooded creatures are also capable of detection. Since coldblooded creatures do not produce their own heat as mammals do, they must get their heat from an outside source. They retain this heat. When it drops they become docile. Undead need no heat nor do they emit it. Whether they absorb heat is suspect. If not then retained heat is out. And a vamp would stand out against the heat spectrum. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:06:07 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 Inconu@aol.com wrote: ><< >And the disadvantages given to Paladins in the D&D rules aren't large enough? I based this class's abilities pretty much on the paladin/avenger model. >> >I don't think the disadvantages are enough to offset all the bonuses you wrote down earlier. Perhaps for starters...there should be higher minimum scores in certain areas... Ah, and every single off-the-cuff summary is to be taken as a 100%write-up of all details, down to the smallest. That'll teach me to bother to actually be conversational on this mailing list. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:07:13 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 Inconu@aol.com wrote: ><< The by-the-book mystics have as much place in Mystara as the AD&D 1st edition monks had in Greyhawk: There are always fan-boys out there with visions of Bruce Lee and that laughable actor whose initials are "D.C." >> >I'm not sure exactly what you mean here....do you think there is no place for this culture...or are you saying that D&D misrepresented this culture. 1: The original Greyhawk was totally European--monks were just a kludgie add-on. 2: No version of D&D or AD&D has ever done justice to Asian cultures, they mangle their paradigms even worse than they mangle European cultures. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:10:10 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >At 06:08 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >>bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >>Not in my opinion and illustrates one of the best disadvantages of paladins. They have to balance the duties of law and of good. Which I did not write this nor any of the rest of that paragraph. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:14:43 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >A good paladin (like there's any other kind?) recognizes the difference between a good law and a bad law. If a law is not in the interests of the common good, the paladin will take whatever steps are required to have that law removed. He might not break it himself, but he will not support it at all. That may be the A&D workaround, but in D&D, it's the Avenger who ignores the law if it does not serve Justice. As the Paladin is the military exponent of the concept that all Good can only come through following the rules, and Avenger is the military exponent of the concept that Good can only come through Individual Liberty. >possible to promote the cause of good. Look at the penalties for alignment infractions; chaotic actions require atonement; evil actions cause permanent demotion to fighter. AD&D kludgie workaround, not at all applicable to comparing Paladins with Avengers. >I defy anyone to say that a paladin would have gone along with this. A knight, yes, since the knights were mainly subject to the crown. But A Paladin is pretty much screwed in this situation if he is ordered to do this. If he disobeys, he is no longer acting in a Lawful manner, and Paladins are required to be of Lawful alignment. An Avenger, already being Chaotic, would leap at the opportunity to do good *AND* disobey the law--ultimate coolness, from his point of view. I would like to see a Neutral holy fighter high-level option, myself, too. >Paladins are the ultimate soldier of right and good. If the law is wrong, the paladin will stay on the side of right. Avengers get to ignore the law if it happens to not agree with their concept of Good. Paladins must be Lawful. Life is tough for Paladins. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:43:07 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara >I recently picked up a copy of "The Road to Urik", and it set me to thinking. The main possibility of converting the module would be to use it during the Master's invasion of Darokin. It would require extensive rewriting, however. >Some other modules: >U1: Place it around the Malpheggi Swamp in Darokin, when I run it, I'm going to use it with I2 This is a great idea but I think the similarity between "Dunwater" and "Dunadaele" is just to darn good to pass up. >I2: Set it in the Malpheggi swamp, and add a small bit to Mystaran History, and it works. My feeling is that Darokin, while not an incredible military power, still would have the resources to take care of a bandit group like the one described. I have placed this module in the great southern swamp of Alphatia (of course this assumes there IS an Alphatia, my campaign is AC1000). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:51:31 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia >The preservation part of the SoP is not a problem to the Alphatians: it does not prevent them from doing magical research, quite the contrary! ;) No significant magical research is possible. Advances in magic or technology are not possible due to the Spell of Preservation. >OTOH, the magical restriction part of the SoP is a problem. It prevents the Alphatians from using all of the spells they once knew, and reduces the number of potential spellcasters with the 16 restriction. Though one should note that the Alphatians are still by far the most powerful MUs in the HW, and they have access to many spells other HW denizens don't. Anyway, this will be (partially) fixed. Wasn't there a list of spells that were not prevented by the SoP but were simply unknown in the HW? Has anyone considered the ramifications? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:03:02 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) I've been following the discussion of "D&D vs. AD&D" with interest, and since this issue is a big concern for me, I thought I would share my opinions on the subject with you. Please bear with me, this is long. Firstly, it seems to me that the two systems in question are very, very similar in a lot of respects. Let's face it, if they weren't it might be an awful lot harder to convert between the systems than it is now. As someone said a short time ago, it's the setting that makes the game, not necessarily the rules. And we have already talked about this - people using GURPS to run Mystara, people using Storyteller, etc.. Now, the reason this relates personally to me is that I have always found it hard to find players who really want to go beyond statistical experience gain. This has been thrust even more in my face recently with computer "roleplaying" games such as Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder, as well as the other D&D/AD&D computer games. The thing is, I think most people would agree that these games are roleplaying games only in the smallest of ways - in other words, you point and click, make numbers go up, and are exposed to very little real plot and almost no interaction, or at least not of a "roleplaying" type. Since a lot of my friends are heavily into computer games (including myself), I find it interesting if very annoying that they seem to prefer the mindless, repetitive stat-raising computer games to character- building roleplaying games. The central point in this discussion is that a new breed of these games allows interaction with other people - notably Diablo and Ultima Online - but still with very little (or no) plot, and hence no character development. In Ultima, for example (for those of you who have not heard of it), you run around doing a pseudo-real world profession - such as lumberjacking, mining, fletching, blacksmithing, tailoring, etc. - to get money to start adventuring proper. This sounds all very well, but what it really means is "point, click, wait, click again, point, click" and so on. Character building? I don't think so. What's more, there is little opportunity to even interact with other characters who are doing the same thing as you, since this is after all the boring part that everyone wants to get done as fast as possible. And even if you do, it is generally as player to player, not character to character. And when you finally get to the dungeons, what happens? You point, and click, and wait, and point, and click, and... you get the idea. Worse than that, there are now player characters all around. It sounds like the ideal environment, and yet still something is lacking... oh yes, the plot! There is none! What's more, the constantly regenerating ("respawning") monsters do not serve as an obstacle to be passed, but instead as a way for players to put up their all-important stats. Things get really bad when selfish players show their true colours by declaring a monster "theirs" - in other words they want to gain the maximum amount they can for their skills without letting anyone else join in and "stealing" their quarry. But perhaps I am being a little unfair - I admit, if you do manage to find some true roleplayers, you can have some measure of fun. That is, until the player killers come and gang up on you. For those of you not familiar with the term, player killers are PCs whose sole reason for playing the game is to murder other PCs - no motive (how can you have one without a plot?), no mercy. Anyway, I think you have all got the idea about this sort of "roleplaying" by now - and it is by no means restricted to computer games, either. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the so-called "munchkin", the player who is there to gain experience points (as opposed to just plain experience), who plays the class and race which is statistically most advantaged, who blindly runs into fights in the belief that he is too powerful to die, etc. This is the same sort of thing. Now, back to my situation - I actually had a discussion about this yesterday, wherein some of my friends told me they preferred computer roleplaying games, despite their lack of plot or character building. What argument can I possibly use against this that will persuade them? Does anyone agree that plot and character building through experience rather than XP is what makes Mystara great? Does it really matter what system you use as long as it works for you and your group? In any case, the whole point of this post is that I think roleplay is far superior to the "roleplay" in games such as Ultima Online. If you have no story, effectively no setting (not quite true, but the setting isn't exactly fascinating), and all you have to do is press a button and watch a badly animated sprite to gain "experience", in other words if you don't use your imagination at all, how can this possibly be fun? This realtes to real roleplaying for me as well, because I have begun to find that after ten years of rolling 1d20 for combat, skill checks, ability checks, etc., my players know the rules too well. When they fight a dragon, they see a box with a number in it, not an awe-inspiring 50' long scaled beast! And when a character does try something interesting (like for example I have a player who loves to fight with style), the rules either get in the way or get him to make a check which he knows all the probabilities for, and which kills the imagination. As a result of this argument, I have decided to change somewhat the rules used by my gaming group. (This is of course assuming I can tear them away from Ultima Online, Diablo, et al.) What I am really looking for is a system where the DM can award experience based on what the characters do in an adventure, not on what they kill or what material wealth they gain. The main problem is that I have come to think of rules - and specifically dice - as a barrier to "real roleplaying". Perhaps it's because my group has been using these rules for so long, and is so familiar with the dice and what we roll them for, but none of it seems to be conducive to stimulating the imagination. Sorry this has gone on a bit. I really am interested to see what you all think about this, though. Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:54:43 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins >Something like rallying the masses of the country to stand by their >>side and speak up for themselves. That's why a Charisma 17 (in ad&d) is required to be a paladin. They're inspiring and have the potential to recruit many to aid them at almost any time. I just think it's one thing to be a matyr or a hero.....and yet another to be suicidal. >If the paladins stood up en masse against the church's policy of torture and persecution, the church would be well-advised to sit up and take notice before the paladins lead a revolution against the church heirarchy. Remember, the paladin's faith is directly in his god, and if the church is going against the basic tenets of the faith, the church is in the wrong, not the paladin. I disagree. I believe in a situation where the church is wrong, the paladin will speak out against it strongly and then turn himself in to the church to suffer whatever punishment they devise. On the other hand, the avenger might act just as you said. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:11:16 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) At 11:31 AM 2/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >Jeff Daly wrote: ><1) The Immortals expected the Alphatians to be just as complacent in the HW as they were in the outer world. But in reality the Alphatians, so newly come from a war, are energized by the lands around them in the HW. They are aware of the effects of the Spell of Preservation as they realize there is something stagnating their growth as a nation. Practical magical research and experimentation just does not work and it quickly becomes obvious. The mages start to theorize about the existence of the Spell of Preservation and an intelligent entity behind it.>> >Uhmm.. has it these effects over alphatians? They aren't able to create new magics and further their studies? I don't think so. You see, the essence of the SoP is that it has been designed to preserve the features of each particular culture, and givent the fact the alphatian society is based on magic and magical research, then it should actually PROMOTE it to mantain alphatia unique. If you look at the example of the Blacklore elves they are prevented from creating anything useful by the SoP. So, uhmm, yes. The Alphatians will be prevented from any magical research that significantly changes their culture or their station in life. >Also, alphatia (as proposed by many) had in the outer world the role of balance of power in eastern Brun, But that balance is gone after WotI. Alphatia no longer exists in the outer world. and this role has been paricularly >stressed with its arrival in the HW. Alphatia is now the HW United Nations, as stated clearly by Eriadna in PWA1012, after Jafilia's death. Really? She said it was the Hollow World UN?? If the >Immortals had thought even for a moment that they couldn't direct Alphatia this way, i don't think they would have reproduced it and placed it in the HW (with the memories of the past in the minds of the most powerful people), Exactly. Which brings me back to my original statement that they made a miscalculation. where all the other cultures are easy game for Alphatia's >firepower. Alphatia is now more than ever the GOOD guy in Mystara. They always have been in my campaign. ><<4) In the coming years the Alphatians become the supreme power in the HW and re-establish contact with the outer world. 5) They will actively seek to destroy the Spell of Preservation.>> >Don't agree for the motives listed above. And besides, they cannot. That's all for me. I don't agree for the motives listed above. And besides, maybe they can. That's all for me! :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #110 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:54:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #111 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Tuesday, February 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 111 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (still long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) [MYSTARA] - Wight Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:20:28 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 10:55 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 08:33 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >>What has had the worst effect >>>on it and made the people uninterested in participating? Money. >>I don't know that I agree with this. Money/Power is the root of all evil in every society. >To properly quote the Bible, "For the love of money is the root of all evils*" Money itself isn't a bad thing, it's just the way people react to it that causes all the problems. Personally I wouldn't want to have to trade steaks for gasoline, or whatever would be needed in a barter society. Money is a great invention. But like nuclear power, it has a nasty side, too. That was actually my point. But yes you are correct about the inclusion of "the love of". My point in adding the word "power" was to suggest that money is not the problem. For instance, in a barter system it would still be possible for a few to hold all the property over the many. In a strong sense, money is merely a way of keeping score. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:22:18 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 10:09 PM 2/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >Inconu@aol.com wrote: >>Well, that seems to be one of the magic questions that no one can answer. I think that the only way Mystara stays in print is if the rules are partially/completely thrown out or hopefully at least converted. Which would obviously make the most dedicated fans want to lash out and go knocking at WOTC's door with the rest of the MML .......and of course a few torches, pitchforks, and let us not forget the barking dogs. But, it may be the only way. If Mystara ever completely comes back, I really doubt it will be the same >>Mystara that we all have grown up with... >This makes me wonder. Does anyone recall the original creators of Mystara (the Known World) or those that contributed to it (besides Bruce and Aaron who aren't with TSR any longer I believe)? Just got me thinking that if it did return, there's a lot of background that could easily be overlooked. If TSR goes with a re-release then it's very likely that it won't be the same we all know unless they have someone on board that knows the setting without attempting to read through it in one sitting. Casually glancing through the Gazatteers, I see quite a few different writers probably indicating that there has never been anyone holding all its secrets. Tom Moldvay wrote X1 and invented the Known World. David Cook wrote X4 and X5 inventing the Sind desert, Pramayama, and Hule. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:27:15 CET From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia >>The preservation part of the SoP is not a problem to the Alphatians: it >>does not prevent them from doing magical research, quite the contrary! ;) >No significant magical research is possible. Advances in magic or technology are not possible due to the Spell of Preservation. Hmm, magical research (and discoveries!) is the essence of the Alphatian culture, so the SoP should enforce it and not remove it. I agree that any advance in technology will be prevented. But I think the SoP should let the Alphatians develop new spells. That is not really making them progress anyway, as you can do anything with a carefully worded wish anyway. Inventing new spells just gives you new ways to achieve something at a lower cost than using a wish. >>OTOH, the magical restriction part of the SoP is a problem. It prevents >>the Alphatians from using all of the spells they once knew, and reduces >>the number of potential spellcasters with the 16 restriction. Though one >>should note that the Alphatians are still by far the most powerful MUs in the HW, and they have access to many spells other HW denizens don't. >>Anyway, this will be (partially) fixed. >Wasn't there a list of spells that were not prevented by the SoP but were >simply unknown in the HW? Has anyone considered the ramifications? Indeed. There is an example of the use of such a spell in the next almanac. Also IIRC Haldemar used a fireball or something during his encounter with the SA in the 1014 almanac. There certainly going to be more examples as the Alphatians continue to interact with other HWers. And of course, that's a great adventure hook for Alphatian PCs that happened to be on mainland when the Doomsday weapon sent Alphatia down ;) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:30:47 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Paladins as described by people on this list, or at least thats what my impression from the mails I've been reading these two last days, are remarkable people. Truly unique one might say. Thus they can have no role in society that will have to be filled. They are at the best, heroes of legends. Their requirements are too extreme for there to exist an order of these people, or any kind of organization what so ever. However I see no problem with Immortals granting powers to such champions. But the class would have to be individualized for each Immortal. Including both abilities and rules of conduct. However, what we could create is a Fighter Kit, which is in many ways similar to the Paladin. But again, varies for each Immortal. Berserkers, would be the champions of Odin for instance. I know some people have expressed a dislike for Kits, and that is their right ofcourse. I do like the idea of Kits and prefer to keep the number of classes fairly low. Especially the ones which don't really fit into any culture. Ie, Paladins and Druids. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:39:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (still long) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >I've been following the discussion of "D&D vs. AD&D" with interest, and since this issue is a big concern for me, I thought I would share my opinions on the subject with you. Please bear with me, this is long. >Firstly, it seems to me that the two systems in question are very, very similar in a lot of respects. Let's face it, if they weren't it might be an awful lot harder to convert between the systems than it is now. As someone said a short time ago, it's the setting that makes the game, not necessarily the rules. I mentioned in a post earlier how I found it interesting how much the game system does affect the campaign setting. If only because the rules of the game are the "rules" of the world in question, for instance the vampires of D&D are different from the ones in Vampire (WW, Storyteller system) not just because of the differences in what they are in the game, but also because of the rules. The most graphic example of this is the character class and level. You know when playing D&D that there wont be guys with chainmail hurling lightning bolts, and that if someones 25th level they may be tougher to kill than dragons. Hmmm, I'm not sure I'm getting the point I'm trying to make across, but I do think that the rules affect the game world. But then again, I ignore most of the rules :) >As a result of this argument, I have decided to change somewhat the rules used by my gaming group. (This is of course assuming I can tear them away from Ultima Online, Diablo, et al.) What I am really looking for is a system where the DM can award experience based on what the characters do in an adventure, not on what they kill or what material wealth they gain. The main problem is that I have come to think of rules - and specifically dice - as a barrier to "real roleplaying". Perhaps it's because my group has been using these rules for so long, and is so familiar with the dice and what we roll them for, but none of it seems to be conducive to stimulating the imagination. Umn, I'm gonna waffle on a bit too, sorry :) I gave up on working out XP for the PC's a long time ago, it started to take too long, and well, I like my PC's to go up levels faster than average (2 to 3 games a level ideally, sometimes as much as 1 per level if I want to move things along). I stopped playing D&D when I left school. In Scotland in our final year at school we usually do Sixth Year Study exams which have no relevance to getting into Uni, so it was basically a skive, a full year to play about with D&D and do WotI :) Fun stuff. Then along came Uni, much splitting up of old group and playing Shadowrun, Vampire and other more "modern" games. Most of the more modern games have far simpler systems, they try and place the emphasis on Role playing, the main books are often as not descriptions of the campaign world rather than a rule book. Makes me wonder why AD&D needs 3 basic rule books and that's without a campaign setting! So now that I've restarted a D&D campaign I find the rules get in the way a lot. There are so many numbers, so much to work out so I tend to just ignore big chunks of it. OTOH I don't have any adventures where the PC's run into monsters much, most of my games are set in Glantri with the PC's as Private Investigators. Allows lots of plot to go on, but not that much monster bashing. So when the PC's get to the end of an adventure where they've caught the bad guy, figured out the were-wolf butler did it and not had any fighting going on at all (except maybe to capture the butler) how do you assign XP? A don't think defeating a were-wolf and getting 100XP (or whatever) would really be that good a solution, so generally I make up a value based on how fun the adventure was for everyone. And then don't tell the PC's anyway but just tell them what level they are :) works for me, and sorry about the waffle, I had the bizzare need to type a lot... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:47:03 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics There has been some discussion on whether Rad has Clerics. I think the general view on Clerics in Glantri is that they cheat. They do not seek to understand magic, but rely on some outside force to provide for them. This makes them dependent and ignorant. I think Rad himself shares this view. Also, on the world he came from, the Church's representatives wanted to burn Mages and the like. All in all, I can understand why he doesnt want to have clerics among his supporters. Which should be his choice. And it makes him more interesting. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:54:08 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Galwilyn. This looks good. I've been thinking about creating an order of Church Knights for the Church of Karameikos. However, I'd suggest that it'd be open for both fighters and Paladins, if you want Paladins to be less frequent, which IMO would be more realistic, as I mentioned in a previous mail. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:58:31 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 06:27 PM 2/24/98 CET, you wrote: >>>The preservation part of the SoP is not a problem to the Alphatians: >it >>>does not prevent them from doing magical research, quite the contrary! ;) >>No significant magical research is possible. Advances in magic or technology are not possible due to the Spell of Preservation. >Hmm, magical research (and discoveries!) is the essence of the Alphatian culture, so the SoP should enforce it and not remove it. I agree that any advance in technology will be prevented. But I think the SoP should let the Alphatians develop new spells. That is not really making them progress anyway, as you can do anything with a carefully worded wish anyway. Inventing new spells just gives you new ways to achieve something at a lower cost than using a wish. But the invention of new spells is not the point. Even the Blacklore elves can come up with new automatons. But they can never come up with anything that would significantly change their situation. Thus my original comment: "No SIGNIFICANT magical research..." And, not having the books in front of me, I wonder if wishes are even possible in the HW? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:03:43 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >This makes me wonder. Does anyone recall the original creators of Mystara (the Known World) or those that contributed to it (besides Bruce and Aaron who aren't with TSR any longer I believe)? Just got me thinking that if it did return, there's a lot of background that could easily be overlooked. If TSR goes with a re-release then it's very likely that it won't be the same we all know unless they have someone on board that knows the setting without attempting to read through it in one sitting. Casually glancing through the Gazatteers, I see quite a few different writers probably indicating that there has never been anyone holding all its secrets. Frank Metzer (spl) wrote about mystara in the boxed sets. Including the original Immortals set. Ed Greenwood wrote Five Shires. And I'd also like to mention Steve Perrin who wrote Elves of Alfheim(Gaz) and Legacy of Blood(adventure module). Alfheim is IMO one of the best Gazs. Steve Perrin is IRC back with TSR after working with Chaosium. Those are the ones I remember right now. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:15:31 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) >In Ultima, for example (for those of you who have not heard of it), you run around doing a pseudo-real world profession - such as lumberjacking, mining, fletching, blacksmithing, tailoring, etc. - to get money to start adventuring proper. This sounds all very well, but what it really means is "point, click, wait, click again, point, click" and so on. Character building? I don't think so. What's more, there is little>opportunity to even interact with other characters who are doing the same thing as you, since this is after all the boring part that everyone wants to get done as fast as possible. And even if you do, it is generally as player to player, not character to character. While you had some generally good remarks about computer roleplaying simulations being inferior to real roleplaying games, I have to disagree with you on Ultima Online. The game was set up the way it was on purpose to discourage shallow character building and encourage role building. However, in the end, no game mechanic will do this. Only the players can make the decision to roleplay. Which I would argue is beginning to happen in UO. And I am not just saying this cause DD is a personal friend...;) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:21:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>This makes me wonder. Does anyone recall the original creators of Mystara (the Known World) or those that contributed to it (besides Bruce and Aaron who aren't with TSR any longer I believe)? Just got me thinking that if it did return, there's a lot of background that could easily be overlooked. If TSR goes with a re-release then it's very likely that it won't be the same we all know unless they have someone on board that knows the setting without attempting to read through it in one sitting. Casually glancing through the Gazatteers, I see quite a few different writers probably indicating that there has never been anyone holding all its secrets. >Frank Metzer (spl) wrote about mystara in the boxed sets. Including the original Immortals set. >Ed Greenwood wrote Five Shires. And I'd also like to mention Steve Perrin who wrote Elves of Alfheim(Gaz) and Legacy of Blood(adventure module). Alfheim is IMO one of the best Gazs. Steve Perrin is IRC back with TSR after working with Chaosium. Urgh, didn't like the Five Shires gaz but never mind... Ken Rolston wrote Gaz2 (Emirates of Ylaruam) and Gaz 7 (Northern Reaches) Carl Seargant wrote Top Ballista.(PC2) (Shadowelves???)Gaz13 William Connors wrote Atruaghin clans (gaz14) Jim Bambra wrote Gaz 12 (Ethengar) and PC3 (Sea People) that leaves... Arron Allston - Gaz1,6,Dawn of the Emperors (Thyatis/Alphatia) Hollow World and WotI and the first (2?) PWAs. Dang can't remember Ierendi,Minrothad or Darokin, anyone? Bruce did Gaz3 (glantri! Hurrah! :) ) and gaz 10 (orcs of thar). when reading through a lot of the gazetteers it's quite obvious that the people writing them aren't trying *too* hard to fit them in with everything else. As it should be I suppose, they were writing an accessory which could be the basis of a whole campaign. It's wierd, there wasn't really an original creator who had even a vague idea of what it would turn out like, well, it doesn't seem that way compared with FR, Dragonlance and even Greyhawk. Seems like a big mishmash of everything all over the joint. That Arron Allston managed to tie all the history together in HW amazes me. Anyway, point being that even in the TSR stuff, there seem to be so many different (for lack of a better term) feels to Mystara, that any one writers would be as different to what we know as anothers. Maybe. I dunno. I'm waffling again, I'll stop. gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:18:01 -0700 From: "Joe Gerber" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) - -----Original Message----- From: Daly >At 11:31 AM 2/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >>Uhmm.. has it these effects over alphatians? They aren't able to create new >>magics and further their studies? I don't think so. You see, the essence of the SoP is that it has been designed to preserve the features of each particular culture, and givent the fact the alphatian society is based on magic and magical research, then it should actually PROMOTE it to mantain alphatia unique. >If you look at the example of the Blacklore elves they are prevented from creating anything useful by the SoP. So, uhmm, yes. The Alphatians will be >prevented from any magical research that significantly changes their culture >or their station in life. Err, umm, no. The *only* thing that's preventing the Blacklore Elves from actually creating the real technology is the fact that not a single one has idea of how's it's even supposed to work, let alone how to build it. Remember, that the Blacklore Elves were/are nothing more than consumers of their technology. You're right that the SoP will prevent them from significantly changing (which may not include advancing) their culture, however. Joe *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:43:06 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D >Style is up to the DM. AD&D suffers under the illusion that if they make a rule then you must use it. AMEN! That is exactly my style when dming....all rules give way to what i think makes sense. I agree, i let players go as far as i've read or I'm willing to read. There are rules that are set in stone AKA d20 for an attack roll, but if you think something doesn't work with the rules try and make something up on your own steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:44:43 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? >It's wierd, there wasn't really an original creator who had even a vague idea of what it would turn out like, well, it doesn't seem that way compared with FR, Dragonlance and even Greyhawk. Seems like a big mishmash of everything all over the joint. That Arron Allston managed to tie all the history together in HW amazes me. You are correct. Forgotten Realms existed first as a campaign created by a single DM for a group of players. It was only after a successful series of articles in Dragon that Ed Greenwood was asked to put it all together and publish it. I don't know much about the origin of Greyhawk but what I gather is that it was Gary Gygax's creation. Dragonlance was created by Margeret Weis and Tracy Hickman for a specific campaign. The Known World was included as part of the X1 adventure with a short blurb for each country. The rest came as additions in modules and later boxed sets. Bruce Heard was instrumental in bringing alot of that disparate info together and making the world feel more like a complete campaign setting and less like alot of piecemeal thoughts. >Anyway, point being that even in the TSR stuff, there seem to be so many different (for lack of a better term) feels to Mystara, that any one writers would be as different to what we know as anothers. Maybe. I dunno. I'm waffling again, I'll stop. I think this is Mystara's strength and weakness. One can pass from a given country into another and truly feel that he is in a different land. The seperate flavors drawn in by different writers makes Mystara unique among the TSR settings. The weakness is the fact that some areas do conflict with others. The often used example of the Norse style lands so near to a desert. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:45:51 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >Now, the reason this relates personally to me is that I have always found it hard to find players who really want to go beyond statistical experience gain. This has been thrust even more in my face recently with computer "roleplaying" games such as Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder, as well as the other D&D/AD&D computer games. The thing is, I think most people would agree that these games are roleplaying games only in the smallest of ways - in other words, you point and click, make numbers go up, and are exposed to very little real plot and almost no interaction, or at least not of a "roleplaying" type. Someone told me that Gerg Stafford, President of Chaosium, said that roleplaying games have nothing to do with Computer RPGs. Roleplaying Games are a social activity. And I agree. Computer games can be fun. I just killed Diablo in that game the other day. But it has nothing to do with roleplating games. D&D and the like may have elements similar to those games. But that is only because these were created from boardgames. some of my friends argue that D&D is nothing but a boardgame without the board. I think that depends to a great extent upon the players. However, experience points for killing and levels itself tends to have an effect on the Game. RoleMaster is even worse IMO. I mean Character improvement is one of the motivating factors in a game. And that the only way you can do this is to kill some monster (Bigger the better) tends to affect the way people play. I remember the first adventures in a RuneQuest campaign that I'm involved in right now. None of which included any hitrolls being made. That would have been totally boring in a D&D game wouldn't it? Anyway, when it comes to games like Ultima Online, I guess they are like MUDs and I haven't really decided whether that is a social activity. Not to the same extent as roleplaying games anyway. Doesn't mean they can't be fun I suppose, but comparing them doesn't make much sense. >Does anyone agree that plot and character building through experience rather than XP is what makes Mystara great? yes! you can earn XP in any world. Why would the setting matter at all? >Does it really matter what system you use as long as it works for you and your group? No. But the system needs to be modified to fit into the setting. AD&D could need some modifications to fit better with Mystara. Fitting Mystara to AD&D as some game designers seemed to try, only removes interesting details from the setting. >In any case, the whole point of this post is that I think roleplay is far superior to the "roleplay" in games such as Ultima Online. If you have no story, effectively no setting (not quite true, but the setting isn't exactly fascinating), and all you have to do is press a button and watch a badly animated sprite to gain "experience", in other words if you don't use your imagination at all, how can this possibly be fun? It depends on who you are and who your friends are, but I am of the same opinion as you here. Superior is a strong word. But totally different. >This realtes to real roleplaying for me as well, because I have begun to find that after ten years of rolling 1d20 for combat, skill checks, ability checks, etc., my players know the rules too well. When they fight a dragon, they see a box with a number in it, not an awe-inspiring 50' long scaled beast! And when a character does try something interesting (like for example I have a player who loves to fight with style), the rules either get in the way or get him to make a check which he knows all the probabilities for, and which kills the imagination. Yes. I think this is especially a problem for the xD&D games. Quarrels about interpretations of spells, and Alignments is one of the reasons I don't play AD&D anymore. Also the way the game treats monsters and magic removes much of the mystery from the setting. They are recuced to numbers. And with no variations. I all groups of players should change the set of rules now and then. When I started using GURPS, my PCs encountered a group of Orcs. Now they didn't know they were orcs (though they suspected it) and they had no idea how dangerous these creatures were. Which they wouldn't have in the real world either. The xD&D magic system is the most pathetic one I've ever seen. It completely destroys any creativity from the players of spellcasters and it takes away the magic of magic. Sorry about this very IMO emotional outburst. >As a result of this argument, I have decided to change somewhat the rules used by my gaming group. (This is of course assuming I can tear them away from Ultima Online, Diablo, et al.) What I am really looking for is a system where the DM can award experience based on what the characters do in an adventure, not on what they kill or what material wealth they gain. The main problem is that I have come to think of rules - and specifically dice - as a barrier to "real roleplaying". Perhaps it's because my group has been using these rules for so long, and is so familiar with the dice and what we roll them for, but none of it seems to be conducive to stimulating the imagination. Dont know if you're looking for rules variants to xD&D or a new set of rules altogether. Try GURPS if you like. Its not a perfect system, but it works pretty well, in addition to being fairly easy to convert to from xD&D.. Haavard R. Faane | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:40:58 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [MYSTARA] - Wight I just found from one of my books that in Middle English there was a word , pronounced /wixt/ where /x/ is like the in German . It is a noun meaning "time". If anyone is interested in the reference, it is from line 4283 of Chaucer's "Reeve's Tale". Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:48:59 -0800 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara >Does anyone have any other AD&D modules that can easily be converted to Mystara? In the module B4, there is a page outlining the small underground city of the Cynidiceans. It includes description of the main sites, as well as suggestions on major events the PCs can use to restore the Cynidiceans to some semblance of normal life. I thought that those events would make a great opportunity for an Epic Hero or possibly a Paragon on a quest for Immortality. I have never run anyone through it, but I thought of a couple of AD&D modules which would fit pretty well. An island exists in the underground lake, where undead are known to roam. The PC(s) need to recover an artifact from the island. Take the module S1 Tomb of Horrors, add a few undead on the surface of the island, and place the artifact in the tomb. There exists some deeper caverns which are sealed with some huge slab of stone. The PC(s) need to take some rare flowers which only grow in these caverns. Make a few changes to the module Labrynth of Madness, and place the flowers wherever you want. Of course, these two modules are the greatest PC killers TSR ever produced, but gaining Immortality isn't supposed to be easy. Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:56:07 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) ><<4) In the coming years the Alphatians become the supreme power in the HW and re-establish contact with the outer world. 5) They will actively seek to destroy the Spell of Preservation.>> >Don't agree for the motives listed above. And besides, they cannot. That's all for me. According to PWA 2 or 3 alphatians do not assume the role as a supreme power...but definitly one of the greater powers. They do have some major tactical disadvantages.... A) they are a floating continent. Any military power would have to be flown down in ships.....very easy to spot. B) Their mages are still figureing out what works and what doesn't...that would make them very reluctant to put thier lives on the line when a spell could all of the sudden fail them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #111 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:49:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #112 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com Status: RO mystara-digest Tuesday, February 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 112 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia [none] Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - Re: Shadow Elf Shamans Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Shadow Elf Shamans Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin [MYSTARA] - Infravision (long) [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:07:37 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) At 11:18 AM 2/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Daly >>At 11:31 AM 2/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >>>Uhmm.. has it these effects over alphatians? They aren't able to create >new >>>magics and further their studies? I don't think so. You see, the essence of the SoP is that it has been designed to preserve the features of each particular culture, and givent the fact the alphatian society is based on magic and magical research, then it should actually PROMOTE it to mantain alphatia unique. >>If you look at the example of the Blacklore elves they are prevented from creating anything useful by the SoP. So, uhmm, yes. The Alphatians will >be >>prevented from any magical research that significantly changes their >culture >>or their station in life. >Err, umm, no. The *only* thing that's preventing the Blacklore Elves from actually creating the real technology is the fact that not a single one has idea of how's it's even supposed to work, let alone how to build it. Remember, that the Blacklore Elves were/are nothing more than consumers of their technology. Err, umm, you should read before you comment. For instance, "Ka the Preserver decided they should be preserved as a culture....How could he preserve their culture without preserving their machines?...preserve their machines without letting them spread throughout the Hollow World? " While you are correct about them being consumers the fact is that Ka did work to prevent any significant technological achievements among them. They cannot remember how to create their machines. >You're right that the SoP will prevent them from significantly changing (which may not include advancing) their culture, however. Which was the whole point of the thread. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:15:24 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia >>>No significant magical research is possible. Advances in magic or technology are not possible due to the Spell of Preservation. I have to disagree with this statement....I don't have my HW stuff on me (at school and all) but I know that in several of the HW acessories it talks of items that the differnt cultures have developed. For example the Zargosians of Milenea have developed several nasty spells :> The important thing to remember is that they can develop spells as long as the state of their culture does not change... So wouldn't you think that if the SoP prevented them from researching it would change thier culture...the very thing it is trying to prevent? (gotta hate those immortals for making such a complex spell) steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:16:30 -0500 From: Daly Subject: [none] Here is one that has always confused me. In the Shadowelves Gazetteer the Shaman are always referred to with feminine pronouns. Yet nowhere does it state that only female Shadowelves can be Shaman. So was this just a sad attempt to be politically correct at the expense of clarity? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:29:33 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 01:15 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>>No significant magical research is possible. Advances in magic or technology are not possible due to the Spell of Preservation. >I have to disagree with this statement....I don't have my HW stuff on me (at school and all) but I know that in several of the HW acessories it talks of items that the differnt cultures have developed. For example the Zargosians of Milenea have developed several nasty spells :> That is the whole point. Yes they can research magic and yes they can create new spells. But they cannot come up with anything that will significantly change their culture. >The important thing to remember is that they can develop spells as long as the state of their culture does not change... So wouldn't you think that if the SoP prevented them from researching it would change thier culture...the very thing it is trying to prevent? Exactly, hence my original post. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:33:11 -0500 From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Shadow Elf Shamans Daly wrote: >Here is one that has always confused me. In the Shadowelves Gazetteer the Shaman are always referred to with feminine pronouns. Yet nowhere does it state that only female Shadowelves can be Shaman. So was this just a sad attempt to be politically correct at the expense of clarity? The players guide (page 26) states that the majority of shamans are female--about 70%. So, the use of feminine pronouns throughout the Gazetteer was probably done to reflect this. Michael. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 11:44:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) >Also the way the game treats monsters and magic removes much of the mystery from the setting. They are recuced to numbers. And with no variations. I all groups of players should change the set of rules now and then. I always vary the monsters in D&D, and generally assume that humanoids can gain in levels just like humans. So a 15th level fighter might very well come up against a squad of 7th-level elite orcs led by a 9th-level captain! This keeps things unpredictable. You can have cookie-cutter monsters in ANY game system, if you merely use the descriptions straight out of the bestiary. >The xD&D magic system is the most pathetic one I've ever seen. It completely destroys any creativity from the players of spellcasters and it takes away the magic of magic. Sorry about this very IMO emotional outburst. In all honesty I think D&D magic is better than GURPS magic, at least as far as feeling "magical". Without getting into a rules discussion, I think I prefer arbitrary magic systems rather than the university-style scientific approach. I also like the huge flashy spells, which seem more wondrous and match the flavor of D&D/Mystara better. Has anyone tried using Fantasy Hero for a Mystara campaign? It can handle the super-powerful characters with ease, and can duplicate almost any magic from any setting or game. However it doesn't handle "low level" characters well. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:59:58 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Shadow Elf Shamans At 02:33 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Daly wrote: >>Here is one that has always confused me. In the Shadowelves Gazetteer the Shaman are always referred to with feminine pronouns. Yet nowhere does it state that only female Shadowelves can be Shaman. So was this just a sad attempt to be politically correct at the expense of clarity? >The players guide (page 26) states that the majority of shamans are female--about 70%. So, the use of feminine pronouns throughout the Gazetteer was probably done to reflect this. Thanks alot! This clears it up for me. I never noticed that reference before. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 12:35:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins >Avengers get to ignore the law if it happens to not agree with their concept of Good. Paladins must be Lawful. Life is tough for Paladins. Shouldn't Avengers be penalized for doing good *within* the confines of the law? They really seem to be based on a sort of vigilante concept; an Avenger wants to take the law into his own hands, and would balk at letting anyone else do it. One reason might be that Avengers do not *trust* the law or those who serve it. This would be especially appropriate if the law has lots of loopholes and criminals often avoid justice (as happens here in the USA). Maybe he does not trust anyone else, or maybe he wants the glory of the kill, or maybe he is just too impatient to wait for due process. Whatever the reason, an Avenger should greatly resist using lawful means. In fact he should face nearly the same dilemma as a paladin, only in reverse. Life should be tough for *both*. This leads to an interesting question: can a paladin who becomes disillusioned with the law turn into an avenger? Or perhaps an avenger who comes to see the purpose and goodness of law might become a paladin! This could make for a great campaign... imagine a paladin who loses faith in the law, becomes an avenger, and then (in the end) becomes reconciled and returns to lawful paladin-hood? Not sure where a neutral paladin fits into these thoughts. Neutral, by definition, means "not aligned". A neutral person lacks direction and discipline. This suggests that a neutral paladin desires to do good, but has not chosen (or perhaps cannot choose) between the paths of law enforcement or vigilante justice. Such a person will flounder, trying this and that, and will often be ineffective overall. Lacking a strong vision, he is merely a fighter who tries to do good, but whose character flaws prevent him from become truly great. Some like the "champion of balance" notion. First of all, this idea is somewhat alien to the D&D universe, which supposes that the great majority of humanity is lawful, and that lawfulness = civilization. So a champion of balance wants to weaken civilization and government, but also hates total anarchy. He probably believes that barbarism is the natural state of mankind, and probably secretly admires orcs. He is a subversive and a malcontent. IMO the whole notion is a wierd play on the D&D alignment rules that has no basis in myth or reality, one that takes its inspiration from 20th century philosophy and cynicism. It might work in cyberpunk, but it is glaringly out-of-place in D&D. Try to picture such a champion in R.E.Howard's Hyboria, or in Middle Earth, or among King Arthur's Knights. Anyway, that's my take on the issue. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 12:47:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers As a follow-up to my previous post, I had an idea on the concept of the "Champion of Balance". Rather than being focused on Law/Chaos, what if they were focused on Preservation. The Neutral Paladin is the ultimate conservative, who is converned with preserving the goodness and uniqueness of cultures. It fits perfectly with the Hollow World and its Spell of Preservation. Such a warrior would be called a Preserver. What would a Preserver do? He would always fight to protect the weak and nearly-extinct, to keep them from being absorbed or destroyed. He would of course be blind to questions of good and evil, thinking only of the Right to Exist. Allowing a culture or race to perish would cause him to lose his powers. Of course this sometimes puts him in direct conflict with both paladins and avengers, who generally care nothing for Preservation. A Preserver would be the ultimate conservative, and most of his powers should be defensive and protective. Preservers in the Hollow World might work directly to prevent Alphatia from destroying it, and might also work againt visitors from the outside if they seem threatening. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:11:10 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 12:47 PM 2/24/98 PST, you wrote: >As a follow-up to my previous post, I had an idea on the concept of the "Champion of Balance". Rather than being focused on Law/Chaos, what if they were focused on Preservation. The Neutral Paladin is the ultimate conservative, who is converned with preserving the goodness and uniqueness of cultures. It fits perfectly with the Hollow World and its Spell of Preservation. Such a warrior would be called a Preserver. >What would a Preserver do? He would always fight to protect the weak and nearly-extinct, to keep them from being absorbed or destroyed. He would of course be blind to questions of good and evil, thinking only of the Right to Exist. Allowing a culture or race to perish would cause him to lose his powers. Of course this sometimes puts him in direct conflict with both paladins and avengers, who generally care nothing for Preservation. A Preserver would be the ultimate conservative, and most of his powers should be defensive and protective. Preservers in the Hollow World might work directly to prevent Alphatia from destroying it, and might also work againt visitors from the outside if they seem threatening. Hmm, and as evil dragons and beholders become more rare they will find themselves protecting these species' right to live. No matter the cost to human life. They would make an interesting adversary actually. They sound more liberal...in terms of American politics at least... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:33:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Aaron E Nowack wrote: >Does anyone have any other AD&D modules that can easily be converted to Mystara? Just off the top of my head, The Temple of Elemental Evil might be workable. For some reason I picture it as being placed in the Wendar/Denagoth region, with the Immortal Idris being substituted for Iggwilv (she's the one trapped in the Temple, right?). The little town in the beginning seems similar to the town from X11. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill ***************************************************************************To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:49:32 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Milenian Calendar (my mistake) << This is most likely due to an oversight on the part of the writers but it does leave an interesting question: did something happen to Hiak-lor between 1000 and 1012? >> Probably PWA3 didn't mention any continents inside the skyshield. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:49:35 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D << Style is up to the DM. AD&D suffers under the illusion that if they make a rule then you must use it. If you feel the game is bogged down by the rules, you might consider a different rule system or just start trimming until you're comfortable. In my games, I let players go as far as they like with the available materials provided I'm familiar with it also. It can make the game slow at times and I personally think when you're worried about where an item is exactly in your backpack then the adventure is probably not the main attraction. Some like that, I assume, or maybe I just never was a good packer and never saw the allure >> AD&D lures DMs to create and use tables and dice rolls for all and nothing. But (A)D&D is a Role Play Game and not a Roll Play Game. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:49:34 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics << I think this idea works well. Rad is essentially a Immortal of magic so it would make sense that his followers would be mages and not clerics. I think the Glantri wizards show as much devotion to him as any clerics would to their Immortal. >> Immortals can do very paradox things. IMO you're right with the shepherds, but I think that there are some real clerics too. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:49:30 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << Just remember how rare paladins really are. If there are any in the Known World, then there's probably not too many of them. I agree that they should have granted powers like the druids of ad&d. Something at 3rd and 7th or whatever. Either way, i do believe that any religion should have the possibility to have paladins. Paladins shouldn't just be for goodly characters in my opinion. I think that a true warrior that has more faith in even Thanatos then some priests have....should get granted powers. Maybe instead of the immunites and protection from evil radius, they can obtain some of the unique abilities priests of certain Immortals gain. >> I might gain flames from somebody, but this ability grabbing is IMO the greatest flaw of AD&D. Jamuga Khan "And now my special bowman with his strong arms and his eye-integrated targetting device takes his bow +5/+10 against foes of the Great Khan and fires an arrow +5 of slicing against my enemy who sits 10 miles away at his campfire." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:49:34 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << But what ever they are called for other faiths, I think different abilities would add more to the uniqueness of any warrior/cleric not just the opposite of what the current paladin has. Maybe things like a fear aura or cause confusion one per day. >> I'm not really convinced. IMO the following is valid: The more complicated you make a thing, the more difficult it becomes to remember and the more you are disappointed in the last. And to avoid flames: I DO NOT hinder you to use this idea IYC, or any other member, but I probably wouldn't. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:49:31 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D << Just an opinion: TSR made a game and latter they made another one. This last game have so much rules so the DM can't give the game is own style. What rules? Ok. here you have some: >> Has anybody ever noticed, that AD&D is in fact the older system? Yes, indeed, the original D&D rules are much like AD&D. They were revised as the D&D we all know, but the original rules returned as AD&D. I assume there was a big hack'n slaying about rules in the early days of TSR, probably between Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:04:39 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Half elves >What do Elves eat that Humans don't? And vice versa? Based on the Gaz., elves eat their meat raw. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:04:00 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision At 10.26 24/02/98 +0200, Anias Pasi wrote: >Well I would surely side with Fabrizio. Even the modern heat-cameras can detect friction, as it does generate warmth. And, as far as I know, normal body heat is generated mostly by friction... Thanks Anias. >From Roger E. Moore article in Dragon #211: " (...) anyone able to see infrared light also will see his own body warmth. We have body temperatures just below 100 degrees F., which is enough to blind us with heat radiation. It's like trying to take a picture when the camera itself emits light inside and out, ruining the film. To prevent such heat blindness, an infravision-using creature would need some sort of insulation around its eyeballs to keep the body's heat out of them, and some kind of refrigerant to keep the eyeballs cool so they become sensitive to outside light. This insulation and refrigeration would be done biologically. (Don't ask me exactly how, but I'm sure Mother Nature would figure out a way.) However, let's face it: We're dealing with magic, not science, and magic can do anything. Our problems are solved at a stroke, even if it doesn't please the scientists among us." >But the real question is that how accurate is the infravision. I would agree, that an elf COULD see the friction caused by the dragging steps of on undead. If he is dragging them and causing any friction that is. It just that Would he see it. Surely, if he's looking just for that. But who would be? True. But we were talking about skeletons. IMO skeletons are not that silent a moster. Imagine all those bones moving, creaking and (why not) generating friction :-) Other corporeal undeads may be smelled... I don't think undead have a good scent... >After all, could You see a small stone moving an inch on the floor? Would you notist it? I dont think that I would, unless it kept some nose too. And as an added difficulty, I dont think that the landscape one sees with Infravision is so stabile, as to allow one to see so small movements. Just like our londscape is changed with leaves moving in the trees, dead leaves flying with wind, dust rolling on the floor etc, so is the infrasight too. Cold wind rolling in the air, water on the cavewalls, plants moving etc. True. >And I dont think that most undeads nor other 'cold creatures woul drag their feet or otherwise cause great frictions while hunting. Stupid undeads maybe, but not the rally dangerous ones. As I wrote above I was answering to an example about skeletons. <...> >>>BTW: what about a vampire in wolf or bat form, is he still "cold"? >I would suggest that he is. There is no reason to think otherwise. Afterall he doesn't change into a living bat or wolf. But does it also look as an undead wolf/bat? On a more general issue. If undead are cold then you should be able to "uncover" them just shacking their hands. So how can Baron Sulescu in Karameikos be still in charge? Has he never met King Stephan? Umbelievable IMO. Same things for Morphail, his Barons and his brothers. Boris Gorevitch-Woslany lives in Glantri City, takes part to parties... and you would say that nobody has yet touched him noticing his undead status (he's a nosferatu)? Sorry, I can't believe it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:21:36 +1100 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin I always thought I knew where giants and giant-kin evolved from but now I'm not so sure. It always seemed _obvious_ that they had evolved from the Beastmen and were merely what came out from the taller Beastmen. But looking at the height table for Beastmen in the Hollow World players guide Beastmen range from about 3 to 8 feet. Thereby not in the 12 to 20 foot range that giants and giant-kin fit into. Now of course giants and giant-kin have to come from somewhere and chances are they weren't one of the original Mystaran races, unless of course we now say that they were. Another option would be to have a taller range of Beastmen who subsequently evolved into the giants and giant-kin. Of course I could be missing some reference somewhere which says exactly how giants and giant-kin did come about. If that is the case then could someone please point that out to me. If not then what about the options I suggested above, I prefer the second option BTW. Shawn Stanley http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:22:51 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (long) Some interesting excerpts from Roger E. Moore article in Dragon #211. " A deer, a human, and a chipmunk all radiate heat--more heat when they are ill or physically exerting themselves, less heat when standing still or asleep. Certain magical animals, such as salamanders and red dragons, can be assumed to produce much more heat than other creatures their size. I recall reading that drinking alcohol causes the body to radiate more heat than usual, so a drunkard could be detected by being "brighter" than other people." "Objects in close contact with living beings, like clothing, weapons, tools, chairs, and beds, will radiate some heat after the beings leave or discard them. In time, of course, those objects will completely cool off. Standing on a spot or leaning against a wall for a while also will leave residual heat behind, which could be noticed. Scuffing or shuffling feet would leave infrared "footprints" that could be tracked, though not for long. Friction from dragged objects, like heavy sacks or combat victims, also could be detected, as could places where surfaces have been rubbed together for long periods of time (machine gears, gristmill stones, axle joints, spinning wheels, etc.). Physical blows, like being smacked with an open hand or a blacksmith's hammer, also raise the temperature of solid surfaces for short periods of time." "Fires produce vastly more heat than living beings. Seeing a living being hiding next to a blast furnace in a dark room would be almost impossible, like seeing a firefly's light next to the sun's." "Remember, too, that infravision also detects the lack of heat, just as normal vision detects the lack of light. Snow and ice will look very dark in infravision if seen without visual light from moons or stars. A cold-producing object like a refrigerator also will look darker than objects around it. Cold-producing creatures like brown mold or a lich (whose frosty touch causes frostbite damage) will look very "black."" "It's worth a word on what sorts of creatures could not be seen with infravision. Creatures that are normally able to turn invisible, like pixies, should also be invisible to infravision but not to other senses like smell. Any creature that is roughly the same temperature as its surroundings, like a cold-blooded insect, fish, amphibian, or reptile, would be harder to see at night, though even cold-blooded creatures aren't always exactly the same temperature as the environment around them. (Live things move and so generate friction from moving, for one thing.) Magical beings that radiate no heat at all, like undead skeletons and zombies, would be almost invisible to infravision unless revealed by reflected infrared light or else blocking a much hotter source, revealing their outline." "Heat-producing magical creatures, like red dragons, will of course radiate vast amounts of infrared light. A red dragon would have an advantage, too, in that one short puff of flame will ruin the infravision of any approaching creature, with fatal results for the blinded ambushers. Some cold-blooded creatures like slithering trackers would be invisible to infravision, again with fatal results for cocky adventurers. The special dangers of skeletons, clay golems, and other "heatless" monsters becomes highly apparent. Some undead, however, radiate cold. Liches, for instance, cause damage from their chilly touch; they and their hands should "glow black" in infravision, standing out against warmer backgrounds, even cave walls." Hope this helps. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:47:07 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. In the discussion of Paladins, someone mentioned there are only 12 knights of the round table. That is not entirely correct. Older stories have 150 seats around the round table. They are probably not all filled at any given time, but there are definatly more then 12 at any one time. I think the number 12 came up by later writers who just want to concentrate the story on Lancelot and Aurthor, and cut out rest of the characters from their stories. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | UVa, Material Science Dept. |"Earth is too small and fragile a basket IPM Lab | for Mankind to keep all his eggs in." (804) 984-3789 | -- Robert Anson Heinlein *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #112 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:09:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #113 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Tuesday, February 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 113 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS Re: [MYSTARA] - Creature Query Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara [MYSTARA] - Free-form magic (was: Roleplay vs. "roleplay") (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:52:47 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= pontificated: >Dont know if you're looking for rules variants to xD&D or a new set of rules altogether. Try GURPS if you like. Its not a perfect system, but it works pretty well, in addition to being fairly easy to convert to from xD&D.. I always find GURPS is not very good simulating high power fantasy, such as Mystara, and most of D&D game worlds. How did you work around that? Mainly, how to you convert high level character who have over 100 HP, or wizards who can throw several high level spells per day? - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:01:07 EST From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Creature Query In a message dated 98-02-24 03:20:45 EST, you write: << I just obtained a copy of the original creature cruicible the other day and like always I got easily distracted by new ideas which came from within. I therefore have a query about two of the creatures that are detailed within the book, I would like to know where these creatures were originally detailed. I am interested in the Cryion (sp?) and a group of humans known as Quariks (sp?). If someone who knows could tell me what source these creatures originally appeared in (if any) that would be greatly appreciated. >> I believe they originally appeared in the D&D creature catalog. IMOC I placed both of them in northern Norwold, when I was fleshing the area out. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:26:48 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) One thing I try to do is reward experience for well done role-playing. Not attempts at it, not half-hearted but geniune well done role-playing. Conversations like 'Cast a magic missile with your mage' are a big no-no and I try to make player's describe their characters without using game terms (level, hit die, damage, etc). I've been more successful in my PBeM and it's been entertaining to see characters think another is a theif or cleric just based on descriptions of character to character. I try (in face-to-face) games to make sure I don't have any sword +2s type but 'the blade shines in a flawless, unearthly glow' or some such. My object is to keep the rule part of the game as far in the background as possible and will even skip a required roll if I think it will disrupt play. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:49:03 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >Paladins as described by people on this list, or at least thats what my impression from the mails I've been reading these two last days, are remarkable people. Truly unique one might say. Thus they can have no role in society that will have to be filled. They are at the best, heroes of legends. Their requirements are too extreme for there to exist an order of these people, or any kind of organization what so ever. I see your point here. In fact, I can see where having an organization of paladins would indeed destroy the uniqueness of them. >However I see no problem with Immortals granting powers to such champions. But the class would have to be individualized for each Immortal. Including both abilities and rules of conduct. I doubt that anyone would dislike seeing this worked out. However, I don't think all Immortals would have any warrior types. >However, what we could create is a Fighter Kit, which is in many ways similar to the Paladin. But again, varies for each Immortal. Berserkers, would be the champions of Odin for instance. I know some people have expressed a dislike for Kits, and that is their right ofcourse. I do like the idea of Kits and prefer to keep the number of classes fairly low. Especially the ones which don't really fit into any culture. Ie, Paladins and Druids. I have no dislike of kits (in most cases). So, paladin would be a descriptive term for a holy warrior type and not a class? I do think that druids do fit into certain cultures though and some Immortals would choose them as their specialty priest (to borrow an AD&D term). - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:33:14 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 Inconu@aol.com wrote: >><< >>And the disadvantages given to Paladins in the D&D rules aren't large enough? I based this class's abilities pretty much on the paladin/avenger model. >> >>I don't think the disadvantages are enough to offset all the bonuses you wrote down earlier. Perhaps for starters...there should be higher minimum scores in certain areas... >Ah, and every single off-the-cuff summary is to be taken as a 100% write-up of all details, down to the smallest. >That'll teach me to bother to actually be conversational on this mailing list. Did it ever occur to you that he was offering help in fleshing out your idea? But your right, if you have a problem with someone having a different veiwpoint about your idea, it's probably best not to post them. I don't mean to be harsh and you've offered some good ideas on different discussions here but you seem to be dipping into the troll bucket more than your fair share. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:36:55 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Daly wrote: >No significant magical research is possible. Advances in magic or technology are not possible due to the Spell of Preservation. If that's true then the Immortals have severely crippled the Alphatians natural way of life. >Wasn't there a list of spells that were not prevented by the SoP but were simply unknown in the HW? Has anyone considered the ramifications? Yes, there is such a list since the WotI. What kind of ramifications btw? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:10:06 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >No. But the system needs to be modified to fit into the setting. AD&D could need some modifications to fit better with Mystara. Fitting Mystara to AD&D as some game designers seemed to try, only removes interesting details from the setting. I agree with you so much on this point. >The xD&D magic system is the most pathetic one I've ever seen. It completely destroys any creativity from the players of spellcasters and it takes away the magic of magic. Sorry about this very IMO emotional outburst. This is one aspect that I think the Dragonlance SAGA system is superior. It's the ability of the mage to harness the magical forces for an effect not a set number of spells. I've seen in novels and movies where a magical scroll is needed to defeat the foe. That's its sole purpose. In D&D, you can copy the spell in a spellbook and use it any time you need to banish a god of darkness! Nothing mystical about that, after all, it's just a spell. Magic should reflect who is casting it. DRAGON has published articles about doing this but the system just isn't presented as being made 'personal'. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:30:56 -0700 From: "Joe Gerber" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) - -----Original Message----- From: Daly >At 11:18 AM 2/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Err, umm, no. The *only* thing that's preventing the Blacklore Elves from actually creating the real technology is the fact that not a single one has >>idea of how's it's even supposed to work, let alone how to build it. Remember, that the Blacklore Elves were/are nothing more than consumers of their technology. >Err, umm, you should read before you comment. For instance, >"Ka the Preserver decided they should be preserved as a culture....How could >he preserve their culture without preserving their machines?...preserve their machines without letting them spread throughout the Hollow World? " Yes, but was just the rationale behind Ka's descion to "cheat" and give them fake devices (as long as they remained in their valley, they would never know the difference). There was/is nothing in the HW write-up that says that they *can't* reinvent the wheel, so to speak. It's just that their base culture is commsumeristic rather than progressive (in other words, they as a culture are too lazy to try and build their devices so that they work outside the valley). Joe *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:38:39 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin At 09:21 AM 2/25/98 +1100, you wrote: >I always thought I knew where giants and giant-kin evolved from but now I'm not so sure. It always seemed _obvious_ that they had evolved from the Beastmen and were merely what came out from the taller Beastmen. But looking at the height table for Beastmen in the Hollow World players guide Beastmen range from about 3 to 8 feet. Thereby not in the 12 to 20 foot range that giants and giant-kin fit into. >Now of course giants and giant-kin have to come from somewhere and chances are they weren't one of the original Mystaran races, unless of course we now say that they were. Another option would be to have a taller range of Beastmen who subsequently evolved into the giants and giant-kin. An intriguing reference in the Darokin Gazetteer is to a giantish ship. IIRC the ship is not a sea-going vessel... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:06:51 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia >>Wasn't there a list of spells that were not prevented by the SoP but were simply unknown in the HW? Has anyone considered the ramifications? >Yes, there is such a list since the WotI. What kind of ramifications btw? The ramifications of having a whole continent of people who know those spells now loose in the HW. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:23:15 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One meandered eldritchly... >>Does anyone have any other AD&D modules that can easily be converted to Mystara? >Just off the top of my head, The Temple of Elemental Evil might be workable. For some reason I picture it as being placed in the Wendar/Denagoth region, with the Immortal Idris being substituted for Iggwilv (she's the one trapped in the Temple, right?). Ac tually it's Zuggtmoy, Demon Queen of Fungus. One of these days, whenever I get a chance, I will run House of Strahd (i.e. The original Ravenloft, though updated). in Mystara, placing it it Karameikos, renaming the castle Koriszegy Keep... Seems like such a natural fit. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:15:23 +1030 From: "Cunningham" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Free-form magic (was: Roleplay vs. "roleplay") (long) >>The xD&D magic system is the most pathetic one I've ever seen. It completely destroys any creativity from the players of spellcasters and it >>takes away the magic of magic. Sorry about this very IMO emotional outburst. >This is one aspect that I think the Dragonlance SAGA system is superior. It's the ability of the mage to harness the magical forces for an effect not a set number of spells. I've seen in novels and I've been busy considering running an Immortal-level campaign for a while, but being unsatisfied by the magic system (deity-level beings should be able to accomplish far more than mimicking human spells), I considered adapting a free-form magic system. Fifth Age has a rather good one, but needs the use of cards to use it. I wanted something a little more consistant with the D&D or at least AD&D systems. I considered using the Mage: the Ascension magick system which is IMHO one of the best magick systems there is and would with a little tweaking suit deity-level magic. Unfortunately, this system makes heavy use of the d10/success or failure system. Perhaps the GURPS system does it differently? I'd be interested to know the differences in the system. Has anyone worked out a good free-form magic system? Please let me know.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message.------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:15:57 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Daly wrote: >>>Wasn't there a list of spells that were not prevented by the SoP but were simply unknown in the HW? Has anyone considered the ramifications? >>Yes, there is such a list since the WotI. What kind of ramifications btw? >The ramifications of having a whole continent of people who know those spells now loose in the HW. Oooh, thoose ramifications ;D Actually, if Alphatia can't impact the world in any significant way because of the Spell of Preservation then no matter if they still possessed all spells as before, they can't do all that much. To me, the spell will eventually become a Spell of Stagnation because no people of the Hollow World are allowed to go beyond certain lengths. How does this affect population growth if a culture reaches the point where it needs to expand its lands? Is the Hollow World treated as an unchanging museum by the Immortals where they can see a living example of that culture in a certain time period forever? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:52:02 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] why did i get sniped at for arguing too much about canon and net-canon on the list (ostensibly for creating too much email and not being contributive) when you guys are engaged in a (ridiculously simplistic) discussion of historical matters totally unrelated to Mystara in any way? don't make me sick the list admin on you! m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>Explain what you mean by "materialism". For instance, is America unique in materialistic goals? >I once read something very ironic in high school. Some high-school age students from the USSR participated in an exchange program and were then queried as to their opinions of Americans. They claimed that we were too "materialistic". This is hilariously ironic coming from the ideological standpoint of a dialectic materialistic Marxist-Leninistic society. >>What did we act like before the Civil War? >As Uncle Shelby Foote (no, he's not my uncle--I call him so in a sense of respect) said: "The Civil War turned us from an 'are' into an 'is'. Before the war, we always said 'the United States are', afterwards, it was always 'the United States is'. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:35:42 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) In a message dated 98-02-23 10:02:08 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >No reason why we can't just ignore Planescape if we want to. IMO major >changes will have to be done to Mystara if we want to fit it into planescape. And Mystaras Multiverse is fascinating aswell. why bother? The biggest differences between D&D and AD&D in regard to the Outer Planes are as follows: 1) In AD&D, it is possible to access the Astral Plane directly from the Prime Material Plane. In D&D, you have to get there via the Ethereal Plane -- there is no Astral Projection in D&D. 2) In AD&D, the Outer Planes are arranged in a pattern based on the L/N/C and G/N/E alignment axes. In D&D, there is no particular arrangement -- and, for that matter, no theoretical limit to the number of Outer Planes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:43:32 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara I actually had agreed to do this a long time ago for DM. But it took me a while to get everything together. What follows is alot of campaign specific alterations to Temple of Elemental Evil and B2 and B3 to fit them together into a larger campaign/quest. B2 The Keep on the Borderlands was fairly easy to do. There was really only 1 addition that I made. I changed every chaotic priest to a priest of Arik. This was especially easy because of their tendency to wear jewelry set with red gems. Then I drew a map of undertunnels connecting the Caves of Chaos with Haven and "lands farther west"...most likely the Dymrak forest. I did not really make any changes to The Palace of the Silver Princess but I hooked the characters into that module by having them chase one of the chaotic priests from the caves to where the tunnels met up with Haven. In other words, the manner in which they bypassed the ruby glow was completely different. They got into the palace underneath. Temple of Elemental Evil took the most reworking...obviously so as it is an AD&D module. The first change I made was the village of Hommlet itself. I made it Rugalov and I changed Rugalov's founding from 30 years ago to about 20 years ago. The wizard from the module, Burne, is an adventurer who has set himself up as a protector of this village. He is petitioning the Duke for a title. The ruined watchtower and the Temple of Elemental Evil are in the thick forest to the north of Rugalov. The Temple had been fairly lively when Duke Stephen lead his men into Traladara. When he laid claim to the village of Rugalov the temple rose up against him. He and his men defeated the denizens of the temple and laid waste to its foundations. They knew something more permanent would have to be done someday but they did what was in their power at the time. In the village of Nulb I made Mother Screng a priestess of the Church of Traladara. She is known and respected by Duke Stephen. Her loyalty is to the Traladaran church however. For the temple itself, the most resounding change I think was Zuggtmoy=Arik and Iuz=Thanatos. In the depths of the temple if St. Cuthbert shows up to do battle with Thanatos I made it Halav bolstered by Petra and Zirchev. Even so, this is not a combat that is desired by Halav. Thanatos is definitely superior in power but Halav will not simply back down when one of his priests is in need. In my campaign it actually happened and there was a wonderfully melodramatic scene that ended with the four of them retiring to another plane to "settle this". You will find that the changes in monsters is less an attempt to find an equal D&D setting monster to what is presented and more an attempt to give the module a Mystaran/Arik feel. For instance I substituted Vampire Roses for Violet Fungi but I also substituted a Deep Glauraunt for an Umber Hulk when I could have easily used a Hulker. I will post a full list if anyone is really interested. The only other big detail I can give is the background. I think it is summed up best by Arik's own words (and yes I borrowed heavily from DA1): "Before there was a Karameikos, before there was an Empire of Thyatis vying with the Empire of Alphatia, before there was even a Traldara...there was Thonia. Not the Thonia of our day, no that forzen wasteland is a bitter memory of the glory that was Thonia. In the latter days Blackmoor, once a rebellious frontier kingdom, was the seat of the Empire of Thonia. For a thousand years prior to Blackmoor, Thonia had been in a rapid decline from a poor economy and enemies on all sides. "During the time of Blackmoor therearose a great movement within a group called The Children of the Primordial Chaos. A young woman claimed to have received a vision. She revealed to all who would hear that the elemental forces of the universe were chaotic and opposed to mankind, and thus evil. The beauty of this philosophy affected many hundreds of thousands of people who worshipped the beloved who brought them this revelation. They sacrificed virgins and children; they burned heathen homes and destroyed the enemies of their beloved. "Because of her work and the creation of a powerful magic item, she was granted immortality. She became a god. As everyone knows, a god's power is directly related to the number of his followers. Therefore Arik's (for Arik was her name) power had grown to rival even the Lord of Death's. "And so "He-Who-Is-Not-Named" saw fit to make a pact between the two of them. They wrought a great artifact from the original magic item created by Arik and Arik imbued it with her life energy. Thanatos made the thing indestructible. With this artifact their people would smite Blackmoor and rule the lands of men. "Then a horrible thing happened. Thonia and Blackmoor were destroyed in a great cataclysm and so too was the cult of Elemental Evil--Not destroyed, but subdued. So subdued that it took 3000 years to gain any substantial following. In Eastern Karameikos the cult once again became an entity to be reckoned with until the jealous interloper Stephan Karameikos allied with dwarves and elves and attacked my gentle people and brutally murdered them. He lied to the High Priest of Halav and convinced the poor man that I was his enemy! So I deactivated Yellowskull and hid it. I waited here for my enemies who I knew would come. But now you wise ones have found the object and brought it to me... Of course Arik is lying about much of this. For instance she (if she really was a woman!) totally leaves out the cult's presence in the time of Halav, and she claims that it was she who deactivated the Deathorb. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:47:16 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 07:15 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >Daly wrote: >>>>Wasn't there a list of spells that were not prevented by the SoP but were simply unknown in the HW? Has anyone considered the ramifications? >>>Yes, there is such a list since the WotI. What kind of ramifications btw? >>The ramifications of having a whole continent of people who know those spells now loose in the HW. >Oooh, thoose ramifications ;D >Actually, if Alphatia can't impact the world in any significant way because of the Spell of Preservation then no matter if they still possessed all spells as before, they can't do all that much. To me, the spell will eventually become a Spell of Stagnation because no people of the Hollow World are allowed to go beyond certain lengths. How does this affect population growth if a culture reaches the point where it needs to expand its lands? Is the Hollow World treated as an unchanging museum by the Immortals where they can see a living example of that culture in a certain time period forever? Well not exactly. I just reread the description of the spell and it says that certain changes are possible if a given aspect was already present in a culture. For instance the Azcans of the surface practiced ritual sacrifice every now and then but they increased the practice considerably once they landed in the HW. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:46:46 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 12:20 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >My point in adding the word "power" was to suggest that money is not the problem. For instance, in a barter system it would still be possible for a few to hold all the property over the many. In a strong sense, money is merely a way of keeping score. Ah, but who wins? :-) Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:49:28 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 06:30 PM 2/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >I know some people have expressed a dislike for Kits, and that is their right ofcourse. I do like the idea of Kits and prefer to keep the number of classes fairly low. Especially the ones which don't really fit into any culture. Ie, Paladins and Druids. >Håvard Paladins have a place in any medieval/feudal culture with a strong religious presence, especially an Arthurian or Charlemagne-like setting. And whoever heard of a Celtic setting without druids? Kits help individualize these classes, as with any other class, but paladins and druids are certainly viable without them. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:50:45 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 06:30 PM 2/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >I know some people have expressed a dislike for Kits, and that is their right ofcourse. I do like the idea of Kits and prefer to keep the number of classes fairly low. Especially the ones which don't really fit into any culture. Ie, Paladins and Druids. >Håvard Forgot a point; Druids would certainly fit in Robrenn (Savage Coast), and Paladins are a natural for Karameikos or even the Heldann Freeholds (depending on how you portray the Heldannic Knights; not all of them are scum-sucking Haldemar-haters. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:02:40 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 07:03 PM 2/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >Frank Metzer (spl) wrote about mystara in the boxed sets. Including the original Immortals set. >Ed Greenwood wrote Five Shires. And I'd also like to mention Steve Perrin who wrote Elves of Alfheim(Gaz) and Legacy of Blood(adventure module). Alfheim is IMO one of the best Gazs. Steve Perrin is IRC back with TSR after working with Chaosium. Okay, let's look at the Gazetteers and other important Mystara setting stuff. Aaron Allston: GAZ1 (Karameikos), GAZ6 (Rockhome), WotI, DotE, Hollow World Boxed Set Bruce Heard: Princess Ark series, M1 (introducing Alphatia/Thyatis conflict), GAZ3 (Glantri), GAZ10 (Broken Lands) Ken Rolston: GAZ2 (Ylaruam), GAZ7 (Northern Reaches) Carl Sargent: GAZ13 (Shadow Elves, with Gary Thomas), PC2 (Top Ballista) Jim Bambra: GAZ12 (Ethengar), PC3 (Undersea) John Nephew: PC1 (Faerie lands), HW1 (Azcan Empire) The other Gazetteers are all solo works; none of the authors worked on other setting material. However, they all contributed to make Mystara the most detailed role-playing setting of them all (notwithstanding some people's claims that the Realms are better; they don't even have a list of universities or the different monetary systems that Mystara boasts). Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #113 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:43:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #114 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Tuesday, February 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 114 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wight Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:11:08 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 09:46 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 12:20 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >>My point in adding the word "power" was to suggest that money is not the problem. For instance, in a barter system it would still be possible for a few to hold all the property over the many. In a strong sense, money is merely a way of keeping score. >Ah, but who wins? :-) The guy with the most pigs :) In my campaign the barbarian tribes of Norwold use a bartering system mainly involving cattle. The king of each tribe is the guy who owns the most and the best cattle in the area. A fellow who desires to move up in the world has to make good deals that will increase his one cattle supply. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:08:11 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 01:44 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >I think this is Mystara's strength and weakness. One can pass from a given country into another and truly feel that he is in a different land. The seperate flavors drawn in by different writers makes Mystara unique among the TSR settings. Which makes sense, really. After all, if you travel from Germany to France, there really is a difference between the two nations. Despite all the talk about a Unified Europe, the fact is that there are nearly 30 distinct nations with their own culture, history, and pride. Europe is not a homogenous continent, so why should a fantasy role-playing world be? >The weakness is the fact that some areas do conflict with others. The often used example of the Norse style lands so near to a desert. I like the explanation used; it's a believable one considering that this is a fantasy setting. The Alasyian desert is so hot because of a gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire somewhere in the land. This creates a microclimate which makes the land a desert even though there is a snowy mountain range to the north. Impossible in our world, but fantasy makes the impossible a reality. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:15:32 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara At 02:33 PM 2/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Aaron E Nowack wrote: >>Does anyone have any other AD&D modules that can easily be converted to Mystara? >Just off the top of my head, The Temple of Elemental Evil might be workable. For some reason I picture it as being placed in the Wendar/Denagoth region, with the Immortal Idris being substituted for Iggwilv (she's the one trapped in the Temple, right?). The little town in the beginning seems similar to the town from X11. I think the demon in the temple was Zuggtmoy. I may be wrong; I haven't seen the ToEE for years. Here's an idea for a Blackmoor-era adventure: S3, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. Anyone want to explore the Beagle? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:19:27 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D At 03:49 PM 2/24/98 EST, you wrote: ><< Just an opinion: TSR made a game and latter they made another one. This >last game have so much rules so the DM can't give the game is own style. What rules? Ok. here you have some: >> >Has anybody ever noticed, that AD&D is in fact the older system? No, actually it's not. >Yes, indeed, the original D&D rules are much like AD&D. They were revised as the D&D we all know, but the original rules returned as AD&D. I assume there was a big hack'n slaying about rules in the early days of TSR, probably between Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson. D&D is the original system; it has been mostly the same since 1974, with some revisions in the following years. But AD&D was printed in 1979. Gary Gygax himself said that AD&D rules "comprise a _different_ game...It is neither an expansion nor a revision of the old game: IT IS A NEW GAME." (Best of Dragon Vol. 2, pg. 39, reprinted from Dragon #26, June 1979) It don't get much clearer than that, folks. The man has spoken. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:25:42 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >Here is one that has always confused me. In the Shadowelves Gazetteer the Shaman are always referred to with feminine pronouns. Yet nowhere does it state that only female Shadowelves can be Shaman. So was this just a sad attempt to be politically correct at the expense of clarity? is it clearer when books use the masculine pronoun exclusively when they mean both genders? get with the times! peace, m@2 (riot nrrd) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:21:33 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin At 09:21 AM 2/25/98 +1100, you wrote: >Of course I could be missing some reference somewhere which says exactly how giants and giant-kin did come about. If that is the case then could someone please point that out to me. If not then what about the options I suggested above, I prefer the second option BTW. The only thing I can think of that would have given such information was AC10, the Dragons and Giants accessory. But it doesn't say much about the origins of those species. It's one of those mysteries of Mystara, and the Immortals aren't telling. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:28:40 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin what were the original races of mystara? if you don't mind reading NON CANON EXPLANATIONS (can I say that Leroy?), check out Mystaros' Blackmoor timeline on your own website, it talks about the history of Giants in the period between Y'hog and Blackmoor. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, stan wrote: >I always thought I knew where giants and giant-kin evolved from but now I'm not so sure. It always seemed _obvious_ that they had evolved from the Beastmen and were merely what came out from the taller Beastmen. But looking at the height table for Beastmen in the Hollow World players guide Beastmen range from about 3 to 8 feet. Thereby not in the 12 to 20 foot range that giants and giant-kin fit into. >Now of course giants and giant-kin have to come from somewhere and chances are they weren't one of the original Mystaran races, unless of course we now say that they were. Another option would be to have a taller range of Beastmen who subsequently evolved into the giants and giant-kin. >Of course I could be missing some reference somewhere which says exactly how giants and giant-kin did come about. If that is the case then could someone please point that out to me. If not then what about the options I suggested above, I prefer the second option BTW. >Shawn Stanley >http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:29:05 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 04:49 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >>However I see no problem with Immortals granting powers to such champions. But the class would have to be individualized for each Immortal. Including both abilities and rules of conduct. >I doubt that anyone would dislike seeing this worked out. However, I don't think all Immortals would have any warrior types. No, I can't see Rad having a round table of warriors who follow him. A circle of wizards would work, though :-) Or Koryis; hard to have specialty fighters who try not to fight. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:36:15 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara At 10:15 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 02:33 PM 2/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >>On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Aaron E Nowack wrote: >>>Does anyone have any other AD&D modules that can easily be converted to Mystara? >>Just off the top of my head, The Temple of Elemental Evil might be workable. For some reason I picture it as being placed in the Wendar/Denagoth region, with the Immortal Idris being substituted for Iggwilv (she's the one trapped in the Temple, right?). The little town in the beginning seems similar to the town from X11. >I think the demon in the temple was Zuggtmoy. I may be wrong; I haven't seen the ToEE for years. >Here's an idea for a Blackmoor-era adventure: S3, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. Anyone want to explore the Beagle? You know, DA3 The City of the gods, which detailed the Beagle, always struck me as being very reminiscent of S3. I often wondered if, just as Temple of the Frog was adapted, perhaps S3 was totally rewritten to fit the campaign. Perhaps the total rewrite was necessary because S3 is a well known module and very few people are aware of the original Temple of the Frog. For those who don't know, the temple was detailed in the long lost rulebook: Blackmoor. It is not-quite identical to the adventure presented in DA2. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:31:03 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics At 04:33 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >them. I don't mean to be harsh and you've offered some good ideas on different discussions here but you seem to be dipping into the troll bucket more than your fair share. This isn't really germane to the thread of the post, but what exactly is a 'troll bucket'? I understand 'flame wars' well enough, but this one has escaped me. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:37:39 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) At 05:10 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >>No. But the system needs to be modified to fit into the setting. AD&D could need some modifications to fit better with Mystara. Fitting Mystara to AD&D as some game designers seemed to try, only removes interesting details from the setting. >I agree with you so much on this point. Mystara CAN work in an AD&D environment. Maybe they didn't do a perfect job with the Karameikos boxed set, but it followed the first Gazetteer pretty well, and established Karameikos in the current timeline (1012 AC). The kits were awkward, and the adventures were quite beginner-level, but that doesn't mean it was all bad. The timeline fit, the cities and towns were all there and just as developed, and the characters were updated to the post-WotI era. Even the alignment conversions were well-thought out; originally Desmond Kelvin is a Lawful cleric and highly-ranked member of the Order of the Griffon. So is Alfric Oderbry. However, neither of them is Lawful Good. Aleena Haralan is, and the boxed set clarifies that. There may be problems with the AD&D alignment system, but the original system was much worse. Elves as lawful beings? They are rugged individualists with a good attitude. Look at the Legion of Thar; looks pretty Lawful to me, but the humanoids are all considered chaotic. The second axis gives a lot more freedom in alignments. I can't speak for the Glantri boxed set since I don't have it. However, using the Karameikos set as a basis, the rest of Mystara can be converted with some work. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:47:02 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism >In my campaign the barbarian tribes of Norwold use a bartering system mainly involving cattle. The king of each tribe is the guy who owns the most and the best cattle in the area. A fellow who desires to move up in the world has to make good deals that will increase his one cattle supply. Now at least we are back to a discussion of Mystara itself as opposed to armchair social science about the RW. Can you post a write up of this barter system? It would likely only be used in the south, right (north too cold for cattle) but might extend into the Northern Reaches ... In RW history cows have always been an imporant symbol of power in various cultures. The word "impecunious" meaning poor derives from the Roman word for cow ... literally it means cowless. The Hindu belief in the sacredness of cows is supposed to derive from the economic importance of cows in ancient proto-Indo-European culture. In Africa, the Masai and the Tutsi among others consider cows a central symbol of ownership and class status. I wonder, in Sind are cows sacred? what Mystaran nations are famous for their cows? Maybe we need a livestock gazeteer! moo, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:41:40 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) At 05:10 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >This is one aspect that I think the Dragonlance SAGA system is superior. It's the ability of the mage to harness the magical forces for an effect not a set number of spells. I've seen in novels and movies where a magical scroll is needed to defeat the foe. That's its sole purpose. In D&D, you can copy the spell in a spellbook and use it any time you need to banish a god of darkness! Nothing mystical about that, after all, it's just a spell. Magic should reflect who is casting it. DRAGON has published articles about doing this but the system just isn't presented as being made 'personal'. No comment on the SAGA system since I haven't looked at it. However, forthose who dislike the limited spell selection in OD&D, check out an article published in Dragon #200, "The Color of Magic". It details a way to individualize spells for a mage; for example, an elf could have his spells related to the woods and archery; magic missile becomes an arrow that doesn't miss, while lightning bolt is an arrow that does serious damage. A frost mage could use fireball as a cold spell (iceball, or something like that). It's a great system, and requires some thinking. And we're all good at thinking, aren't we? Anyone on this list is obviously a clear thinker, since we all think Mystara is the primo role-playing setting in the world. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:50:22 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wight this may be true but the word "wight" as used in D&D derives from Tolkein's barrow-wights, which derive from another Middle English homynym "wight" meaning Man ... also there is the Isle of Wight off southern England, which of course by this translation could easily be confused with the Isle of Man (between Wales and Ireland). oof. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >I just found from one of my books that in Middle English there was a word , pronounced /wixt/ where /x/ is like the in German . It is a noun meaning "time". >If anyone is interested in the reference, it is from line 4283 of Chaucer's "Reeve's Tale". >Thorf. >========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, >Not all those who wander are lost." >Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:50:27 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 07:06 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>Wasn't there a list of spells that were not prevented by the SoP but were simply unknown in the HW? Has anyone considered the ramifications? >>Yes, there is such a list since the WotI. What kind of ramifications btw? >The ramifications of having a whole continent of people who know those spells now loose in the HW. Incidentally, I find it hard to believe that in the thousands of years since the Hollow World was first settled, no mages have learned any of those 'forgotten' spells. 95% of wizards of 9th level or higher know Fireball and Lightning Bolt. But of all the wizards that ever got transported to the HW, NONE of them remembers or even knew these spells?! Come on, let's get real. The only way this could happen is if the Immortals wiped the memory of all those 'forgotten' spells from all the name-level wizards' memories. Soall the Nithian wizards, the Azcan wizards, the Milenian wizards, the Icevale elves, the Antalian wizards, the Tanagoro wizards, etc. all lost these spells because of Immortal tampering. Do you buy it? If so, fine. If not, fine. However, here's a VERY significant point. Did they do the same to the Alphatian wizards? If so, then Eriadna and company no longer know Fireball and Lightning Bolt. If not, then they have a huge advantage over the rest of the Hollow World. But again, in thousands of years, any nation with any wizards at all would have surely learned those spells. I mean, we're talking millenia here. So, where did the magic go? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:57:01 EST From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin In a message dated 98-02-24 17:35:00 EST, you write: << I always thought I knew where giants and giant-kin evolved from but now I'm not so sure. It always seemed _obvious_ that they had evolved from the Beastmen and were merely what came out from the taller Beastmen. Shawn Stanley >> In my own campaign I totally separated the evolution of the Giants from that of the Beastmen. IMC the Giants evolved from a servitor race of the Serpentines, and are in fact from the same branch of Prot-Humans that the Yuan-Ti, Elves and Halflings are derived from... IMC the Serpentines captured and experimented on a branch of Proto-Humans beginning around 500,000 BC. Three distinct groups formed from the Proto- Humans captured by the Serpentines, two of which were actual servitor races of the Serpentines. The Giants were the Martial Servitors of the Serpentines, and were used for war, gladitorial combat and large scale physical requirements, such as monument building. These Giants were about the same as the modern Hill Giants in size and temprement, though they were for the most part far more bloodthirsty, as their culture was, of course, provided by the vile Serpentines. The Yuan-Ti were a group of Proto-Humans that were used as champions, bureaucrats and general servitors; thus they developed into three castes of their own, the Abominations, Halfbreeds and Purebloods. The final group to evolve from the enslaved Proto-Humans was, oddly enough, the Halflings, who are descended from those Proto-Humans that managed to escape from the Yuan-Ti and survive on their own in the wilds of Davania (IMC, the Human species orignally evolved on Brun). The Giants rebelled against their masters ca. 200,000 BC, at the instigation of the "modern" Mystaran Norse Immortals. The Giants escaped to Brun, where they led the battle against the Serpentines for a hundred thousand years, allied with the native Dwarven and Faerie population. These Giants evolved over time into the modern branches of the Giantish races, and such were well established by the end of the war against the Serpentines ca. 100,000 BC. The Giantish culture collapsed soon thereafter in the chaos caused by the encroaching glaciers, and devolved culturally into barbarism (as did their Dwarven allies). The Giants, by the by, had enslaved the native Ancient Human population of Brun themselves, and though it was a kinder, gentler slavery than they themselves had experienced, it was slavery nonetheless, and it forced many free Human clans to migrate elsewhere. The Humans of that time were more akin to Homo Erectus than Homo Sapiens, just as the Proto-Humans captured by the Serpentines ca 500,000 BC were akin to Homo Habilis, or even Austalopithecus. Those Ancient Humans that moved into Skothar became the ancestors of the Tangor Men and those that migrated to the west of the Giantish realms (centered on what is now known as the Wyrmsteeth Range) eventually became known as the Oltec Men. The Ancient Humans who remained enslaved by the Giants were the ancestors of the Neathar Men. The Brute Men were descended from the Ancient Humans native to Brun that remained free from the slavery of the Giants. The Dwarves were descended from an offshoot of the Proto-Humans that had picked up some rudimentary technology from the colonies of the Serpentines that dotted the coasts of Brun from 500,000 through 300,000 BC; they thus evolved quicker than the other, more distant Proto-Human bands, as they were fighting an off again-on again guerilla war against the Serpentines. They remained short in stature, as, much like the Halflings evolving on the Souther Continent, they needed to be small to evade pursuit and hide in the nooks and crannies of the deep forests... Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:53:36 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara At 06:23 PM 2/24/98 -0000, you wrote: >One of these days, whenever I get a chance, I will run House of Strahd (i.e. The original Ravenloft, though updated). in Mystara, placing it it Karameikos, renaming the castle Koriszegy Keep... >Seems like such a natural fit. Oh, and I'm sure the Karamekians will thank you so profusely for the honor of hosting Strahd... "Yes, well Koriszegy wasn't much of a tourist spot until that von Zaravic guy showed up; now people are just dying to see the place..." Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:58:17 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 07:15 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >spell will eventually become a Spell of Stagnation because no people of the Hollow World are allowed to go beyond certain lengths. How does this affect population growth if a culture reaches the point where it needs to expand its lands? Is the Hollow World treated as an unchanging museum by the Immortals where they can see a living example of that culture in a certain time period forever? Cultural change can be accomplished IF the cultural aspect already exists to some degree. For example, Azcan originally worshipped Ka (in another identity which I've forgotten), and the human sacrifice/Atzanteotl thing was tiny. But it grew until it took over the land. However, the Ka-worshippers were not wiped out completely, and there are still those in Azcan who follow the 'old ways'. They could conceivably regain their power and usurp the nasties who are running the place now. However, it would take quite some doing, and they could not wipe out the Atzanteotl worshippers completely; there would always be a vestige of that aspect of the culture remaining, which could then go underground until their time came once again... So the Hollow World isn't exactly stagnant, but it can only change in limited ways. It's not exactly a museum; think of it as more of a game preserve. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:21:31 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Hey Mystaran's: Just a quick "I was wondering..." set of questions: 1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? 2) Why do you prefer that Era? 3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? 4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:24:23 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 07:47 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >I wonder, in Sind are cows sacred? what Mystaran nations are famous for their cows? Maybe we need a livestock gazeteer! I'm going to go by the trade maps in GAZ9 and GAZ11 on this one. Cities that sell animals at good prices: Specularum/Mirros Tameronikas (Ylaruam) Freiburg (Heldann) Harbortown (Minrothad) Cities that buy animals at good prices: Ierendi City Athenos (Darokin) Dengar (Rockhome) Cities that sell meat at good prices: Kerendas (Thyatis) Athenos Akorros (Darokin) Alpha (Norwold) Cities that buy meat at good prices: Zeaburg (Ostland) Jaboor (Ylaruam) Malfton (Minrothad) Filtot (Ierendi) Harbortown Stahl (Rockhome) Vyonnes (Glantri) I suppose Darokin would be home to a lot of prize cows, considering it is a highly agricultural society. The Shires and Karameikos would have decent livestock as well. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:36:22 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara At 08:21 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hey Mystaran's: >Just a quick "I was wondering..." set of questions: >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? The Gazetteer era is my favorite. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? It allows for a lot of gaming to lead up to a huge climactic Gotterdammerung (did I spell that right, German Mystarans?) in the great War. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided >but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information >provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? Any way they want to do it, as long as Mystara is brought back. I'd like to see the Gazetteers upgraded to the 'current' timeline, preferably incorporating the hard work done by so many list members (PWA1014 to mention only one example). >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? It might be interesting to see the Nithian Empire (before the Immortals nuked it); they had huge effects on the Known World. Also, AY 1000 might be an interesting point in time, particularly if the PCs are Thyatian... >Jenni Nice idea, Jenni; hope lots of people answer this quiz! Maybe if we offered a prize... The first one hundred entries will receive a free e-mail acknowledging their support in the Bring Back Mystara project, as well as a chance to win a trip to Lake Geneva to see the remains of the TSR building. Rumor has it that treasure seekers have been converging on the abandoned offices, hoping to find ancient tomes of great worth. It is believed that at least one lucky treasure hunter found a mint copy of B2 still in the shrinkwrap, stuffed inside a heating vent that had been closed for nearly fifteen years. However, there have also been stories of eager adventurers becoming hopelessly lost in the maze, and being whisked away to parts unknown by the teleport traps fiendishly left behind by the crafty TSR staffers who have departed for the West Coast. There has also been a sighting of several strange creatures never before seen in the state of Wisconsin, such as small gray-skinned humanoids with pointed teeth and bad breath, or huge men with the heads of cows. Who knows what danger lurks within these Haunted Halls? Take the chance and try the ultimate dungeon adventure; the Mysterious Halls of Lake Geneva! Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #114 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:59:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #115 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Wednesday, February 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 115 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) [MYSTARA] - Slovak Names [MYSTARA] - D&D Editions Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (undead) Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:35:58 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-23 14:17:57 EST, cpb@gatewest.net writes: >By the way, what is the Classic D&D boxed set put out... this is considered the sixth and last edition of the rules... does it contain all the rules (Basic >to Immortals)? Unless you are referring to the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, I don't think so. There have been a few repackagings of the original D&D rules, but they have little to do with the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal rules put out for the Known World/Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:35:46 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves In a message dated 98-02-23 10:11:41 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >A comment on Genetics: >There may actually be no such thing as genetics in Mystara. Things might work very differently. Especially with the Elves who are magical creatures. That depends on what you mean by genetics. If you mean Mendelian rules of inheritance, you are probably right -- we have plenty of evidence that the creatures of D&D/AD&D worlds (even humans) differ from us at a microscopic level. But if by genetics you mean any pattern at all to inheritance -- I am sure that Mystara does have genetics of that sort. If you know what the parents of a particular offspring are, you can generally make some educated guesses about the nature of the offspring. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:36:14 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin The closest thing we have to "official" information about giants is in AC10, the "Bestiary of Dragons and Giants" supplement. However, it is quite unclear about the origins of all giants except for stone giants, who are quite clearly a special creation unrelated to any other humanoids. My personal theory would be that hill giants are distant relatives of the beastmen who mutated from the original breed to grow to enormous size. The other giant races are unrelated to the beastmen, as they seem to be far more intelligent and (for the most part) better looking by human standards. As for giant-kin, they are not mentioned in any pre-AD&D Mystara product -- no mystery there, as these are AD&D and not D&D creatures. But it would not surprise me if the Fomorians have a similar origin to the one I proposed for hill giants. As for the other giants and giant-kin I did not specifically mention, I would propose that they are in origin humans or demi-humans who were genetically altered by Immortal magic to reach their present huge sizes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:47:12 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals When were immoprtals first introduced to Mystara? I know they weren't mentioned in module X1. Did Aaron invent them for the Hollow World? I'm curious where they originated and how they became the default pantheon for Mystara. Are there any gazetteers or significant supplements that ever mention *gods* in association with Mystara (other than generic stuff like the evil temple in B2)? Are there any gazetteers that don't mention either gods or immortals? Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:47:11 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D >D&D is the original system; it has been mostly the same since 1974, with some revisions in the following years. But AD&D was printed in 1979. Gary Gygax himself said that AD&D rules "comprise a _different_ game...It is neither an expansion nor a revision of the old game: IT IS A NEW GAME." (Best of Dragon Vol. 2, pg. 39, reprinted from Dragon #26, June 1979) Actually I had heard a rumor that D&D was created so that TSR could avoid paying royalties to Dave Arneson, who co-authored it. As I heard it, Arneson sued TSR for royalties on AD&D, and TSR wriggled out by claiming that he wrote D&D, but AD&D was a totally different game. Originally the D&D Basic set referred players to AD&D for 4th level and higher; after the lawsuit they revised it and introduced the Expert Set to make D&D into a totally separate line, thus securing their legal position. I don't know if this is true or not... but if it is, and TSR/WotC has to pay royalties on it, I'd guess that D&D will NEVER be published again. Unfortunate, since IMO it is the better system. Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:47:12 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? >I like the explanation used; it's a believable one considering that this is a fantasy setting. The Alasyian desert is so hot because of a gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire somewhere in the land. This creates a microclimate which makes the land a desert even though there is a snowy mountain range to the north. Actually, if the world map on pp 280-281 of the Rules Cyclopedia is accurate, then Norwold lies at approximately 40 degrees N lattitude. The climate would be similar to the Northeastern US or northern China and Japan -- humid mild summers but incredibly cold winters. AFAIK not really very similar to the Nordic regions of Europe, but climate does not necessarily imply culture anyway. Of course that doesn't explain the desert; tropical storms should blow northwest from the Sea of Dawn during the monsoon season. The desert *might* be explained by a mountain range of Himalaya proportions to the southeast of the desert, except that one does not exist. Maybe a magical barrier preventing normal weather patterns? Or of course, a gate. ;-) Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:16:37 +0200 (EET) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision Fabrizio wrote: >True. But we were talking about skeletons. IMO skeletons are not that silent a moster. >Imagine all those bones moving, creaking and (why not) generating friction :-) Other corporeal undeads may be smelled... I don't think undead have a good scent... Surely you are right. One can detect the undead with other methods even if one can not see them. And once warned, there should be a chance to notice thim, even if slim... >>>>BTW: what about a vampire in wolf or bat form, is he still "cold"? >>I would suggest that he is. There is no reason to think otherwise. Afterall he doesn't change into a living bat or wolf. >But does it also look as an undead wolf/bat? Well, Does a Vampire really look like an undead? Naturally this depends on the vampire in question. Some are more 'monstrous', some pass for living humans, and the same should go with their other forms. Even more, I think the Vampire would look dead in all the form or in none, but there must be some variations.. >If undead are cold then you should be able to "uncover" them just shacking their hands. Hmm... Good question. One answer would be, that they wear gloves, but that would be a bad answer. Rather, I would think it like this... The two major vampireinvested lands in Mystara, Karameikos and Glantri are not wery warm (climate). That helps the vampire a lot as, in a cold weather, a humans hands are not as warm as the rest of the body. When, on cold climate you handshake a person with cold hands, you just dont first think that, hey, whats wrong with this fellow. So a vampire, who is usually of the same temperature as his latest surroundings are not nesseccarily any more cold to shake hands with than a mortal. Exceptionally so, if they know to prepare for the handshaking (they can warm their bodies vith outside warnth of cource, even if they would not feel the warmth themselves). Then again, in warmer climates, like in Thyatis, wich you must be more accustomed to Fabrizio, the problem must be bigger. Big enough that a vampire might have to create some means to keep the coldnes away from public. Maybe thats why the vampires most often isolate them from peoples. And maybe thats why the real vampirestories originate from colder climates... This was interesting question though Fabrizio, I have newer really thought about it, but in my campaigns the vampires actually tend to be found around colder climates... >So how can Baron Sulescu in Karameikos be still in charge? Has he never met King Stephan? >Umbelievable IMO. Might be, that peoples just dont touch Sulenescu. He isnt so much a great friend of everybodys if I remember correctly... >Same things for Morphail, his Barons and his brothers. Boris Gorevitch-Woslany lives in Glantri City, takes part to parties... and you would say that nobody has yet touched him noticing his undead status (he's a nosferatu)? Surely they have been touched by many (ladies :), but then again they are mages. I'm sure Morphail has been able either to cloak his coldness or rather to create a field, that will give everybody that touches him only fond memories of the touch. And then he must have shared the knowledge to those he think need it (deserve it). And then the other parons, well they dont move so much do they. >Sorry, I can't believe it. You dont have to. And it for sure that some vampires, from time to time are given away for various reasons, of wich body heat must be one. I just dont think that this is so bad a problem as to cause real trouble for the greatest of the vampires. They are Vampires after all, not some stupid trolls. But its just MHO. - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:27:57 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara There's been recent talk of an Online City detailing a Mystaran city and other posts saying Mystara is so rich in detail. I recently had a discussion with a few people who love the Reaklms because "there's just so much! More than any other world!" This really annoys me and I think many list members. What I think the list should DO (and not just bring it up occasionly, say yeah and just leave it alone) but actually come up with topics on Mystara and get people to work on them. Sort of a Great Net Project if you will. If we are going to keep this world alive let's make it better than any other, more detailed than any other, and more organized than any other. (I know it's already all of these) but let's really get a group of projects going. New supplements to those already made. Some examples: 1)Gazetters for areas not already described. 2)The online city idea but more. (Each member could choose a village and dsetail it. A village wouldn't be that much work and the creativity!) 3)Detailing militaries (Generals, Forts, Outposts, Training Rountines, Daily Routines, Uniforms,etc.) 4)All of the NPCs people have ever made (I know this was brought up by someone already but let's compile a list). 5)The types of worship, devotion or whatever that clerics actually do for their Immortals 6)Foods and Drinks 7)Specific events that happen in the World Games. PWA #2 mentions the general events and cites two specific ones (a ten-mile horse race over rough terrain and weightlifting). 8) Anything else! Now, I know people are going to say, "This guy is nuts! I want parts of Mystara left undetailed in order to allow me to detail it the way I want to" Well, I probably am nuts (It could be the fact that I should have been asleep 5 hours ago and have to go to school in awhile) but I just think it would be great if we actually do some extensive and I mean EXTENSIVE "fleshing out". If you don't want to accept any material then don't. Even the writers at TSR said remember it's just a game and the most important thing is to have fun, If a certain person has to be evil or die than go ahead. If you don't want Alphatia to sink then don't let it.:) BoB On the Basic Set it says: Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Adventure Game:-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:28:19 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) I know this was an old thread but I think it is relevant to future history in Mystara. People have been discussing the various types of eras nations of Mystara are in (Darokin is early Rennaisance while Thyatis is classical). There was mention that Classical civilizations immediately change (or faster than it occured on Earth) into Rennaisance type civilizations and eventually, even enevitably into an industrial world. Well...... 1) The real world didn't work like that at all. Civilization didn't go from Roman Advanced to Middle Age Primitive to Rennaisance Advanced again. True, some technology was lost but very little. What happened was while the Western Roman Empire fell the Eastern did not. Hell, while Harold and William were slugging it out with Axemen and Knights, people in Constantinople were building aqueducts, sewers, and many items used in the Rennaisance while the Chinese were testing a seismograph and using all sorts of advanced tolls people overlook. Also, the money to jump start the "Rebirth" didn't come out of thin air, and neither did people suddenly learn how to render three-dimmensional objects. All of this was already known in one part of the world or another, it just had to be found. Mystara is so different that there never will be a jump in civiliztion because the events which occured on Earth didn't on Mystara. There is not an entire culture dominating one part of the world and different countries are in different situations to begin with. 2) MAGIC! Why would I want to make a gun if I could cast a fireball? The only ones who would bother with chemicals are alchemists who are usually magic-users of some kind. "OOOH! I just developed a powder which explodes!" "Big Deal! Here's a Lightning Bolt for you!" 3) GUNS! The industrial revolution started with machines developed by the only people who dealt with a precise craft-GUNMAKING! With no guns in the Known World, there are no gunmakers and hence no machines (well yeah there are those dwarves and gnomes but what can a macnine that continuosly blows bubbles be useful for?) I have no idea where this is headed but maybe someone can guide me. I just see that Mystara will NEVER advance much more than it will now. I don't think we'll see halflings riding autobikes with sidecars. BOB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message.------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:28:33 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Slovak Names Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >How about some slavic names? >I dont want to call all my NPC's Igor ;P "Boy this Boy is kinda slow!" Ja, I know but hey, better late than never! Slovak Names are really no differeny than Russian or Eastern German/Prussian Names. I have an Uncle named Mario and another named Milan, but there are is no Roman blood in my family! Male Names:(I'll try to spell it phonetically in English) English Name-Prounciation-Slovak Spelling Al-Aloyz Martin-Marteen (roll the R)-Martin George-Yuro (roll the R)-Juro (I think this how you would spell it). Robert-Spelled the same and pronounced without the t like in French and German. John-Yanno,Yanni-Jany,Jani,orJanno (It depends on whether you want to call him Johnny or Jack. Joseph-Yoszo-Josczo,Joseph Brian-Bronyo (roll the r)-Branyo Gene-Geno (the G is harg as in grapes)-Geno Female:These seem to be the most popular ones. Ann,Anne,Anna-Yanka-Yanka Dianne,Dianna-Danka-Danka I'm not a Slovak linguist and I am barely litterate in it (Hey, I only speak it about a week a year) so a few of the spellings may be off. I don't think it would matter much since most names are just common Western ones which sound Eastern European (Paul is Pavel) and Karameikos and Boldavia are a far cry from Slovakia or Poland or any other RW nation. BOB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:31:13 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - D&D Editions Hello All! I managed to find a pamphlet which lists all D&D and AD&D products ever made by TSR up till 1996. I just though I should share this to the list in case anyone wants to know. It states that: First Edition was published in 1974. I believe this is the white box. Second Edition was the rulebook published in 1978 and the Basic Set printed in 1978. Third Edition was the Basic and Expert Rules published in 1981. Fourth Edition was the Basic and Expert Rules published in 1983, the Companion Rules published in 1984, the Master Rules published in 1985, and the Immortals Rules published in 1986. Fifth Edition was considered the Entry level boxed set published in 1991 and the Rules Cyclopedia published in the same year. Sixth Edition was the Classic version published in 1994 and the last D&D product to be made unless you want to consider Joshuan's Almanac. I believe most are familiar with Fourth Edition and the Rules Cyclopedia. I don't think there is really a difference between the Classic and the Entry-Level version of 1991. It contains basic rules such as the classes, how to fight, role-play, spells, magical items, blah blah blah.....I find it extremely basic, almost like it was intended for young or begginer players (I mean they have a font size of about 14 or 16 and are meant to be used with those Thunder Rift™ adventures!) Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:36:47 +0200 (EET) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (long) Fabrizio wrote: >Some interesting excerpts from Roger E. Moore article in Dragon #211. Yes they were... >A cold-producing object like a refrigerator also will look darker than objects around it. Well, actually a refrigerator does not produce cold, actually it produces heat, just like all other macinery. But if one opens a refrigerator looks inside, it's cold for sure. >Cold-producing creatures like brown mold or a lich (whose frosty touch causes frostbite >damage) will look very "black."" >Some undead, however, radiate cold. Liches, for instance, cause damage from their chilly touch; they and their hands should "glow black" in infravision, standing out against warmer backgrounds, even cave walls." I dont agree with the writer in this. I think the chilly touch of a lich is more a metafora than a real thing. A lich should be really cold to cause damage for coldness by touch, too cold to be 'true'. So the coldness must be because of the undead status of a lich and because of the magics keeping one 'alive'. A kind of drainage thing, the touch draines warmth, it isn't cold as normally understood. Otherwise the lich can be either cold or hot, propably changes by each lich. Some might be as cold as the dead or colder, some the warmth of their surroundings and some (my favorite) hot or really hot. They are full of magic after all. Think: As you enter the dark library room you see a man sitting by a book, reading even without light. The man looks old, kind of sick, but the most disturbing quality of him is heat. He shows red in your godgiven infravision, red as a furnace. And his eye's turning from the book are hotter still. You step in, asking for Pardon, You wish not to disturb. The man smiles, showing a mouth even hotter than the eyes. The man raises and pleades You to enter. As you step toward him, and the extended hand, you suddenly feel cold. The feeling worsens as you reach to the hand offered to you. It's like all the heat is leaving your body, drained away. You hesitate just for a second, enough to give the man time to leap to You, and grap our shoulder. Cold. You feel the hand darining your bodily heat, succing it away. It's like a touch from a grave, and worst. The mans breath feels warm in your cheek, but hes nearness drives the warmt away from Your wery soul. You feel Yourself dropping, hitting the floor hard, blacking out... Just rambling... Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:52:01 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >Mystara CAN work in an AD&D environment. Maybe they didn't do a perfect job with the Karameikos boxed set, but it followed the first Gazetteer pretty well, and established Karameikos in the current timeline (1012 AC). The kits were awkward, and the adventures were quite beginner-level, but that doesn't mean it was all bad. The timeline fit, the cities and towns were all there and just as developed, and the characters were updated to the post-WotI era. Even the alignment conversions were well-thought out; Actually, most of the "development" of the Karameikos boxed set is a straight copy from GAZ1. As for updating characters, well, besides the ruling family, nobody seemed to age even a single year since 1000 AC... >I can't speak for the Glantri boxed set since I don't have it. However, using the Karameikos set as a basis, the rest of Mystara can be converted with some work. Actually, I found G:KoM to be more useful than K:KoA. Even though much of it was copied from GAZ3, there were some original and useful things in it, like: Map showing the exact location of the Crater Many new spells, incl. new Radiance spells The major characters' descriptions were expanded from GAZ3's one paragraph. Other small miscellaneous things ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:37:32 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos >>How about if they don't work for the King or Patriach? They are a unit that >>has sworn to protect Karameikos...has a strict code of honor. Has a primary >>leader that proposes votes to the rest of the unit. >Could you provide a little more of what you mean? They are an independant group that wasn't created by the church or King. They are free from having any superiors, anyone telling them what to do, and anything like that. It's like....as if a party of adventureres were all Paladins and exceeded and survived to make it to higher levels....Thier Lawful Good nature grabs nearly everyone's attention. The goodly non-selfish acts would take the citizens hearts away, and with thier loyalty to the law of the land...they would be respected. Other countries' citizens and nobles would envy haveing such a great pack of rolemodels for thier country. This, I think, is exactly the sort of thing Karameikos needs to finally put the racism and all those problems aside. It's not directly dealing with it, but it's takeing the focus off, and giveing them all something to look up to. >Yea, I saw them as the best a Karameikian warrior could be. Sounds like a Karameikos army commercial. Daly wrote: >You have some strong arguments. However, I would say since Mystara is generally a more magic heavy world then paladins may very well be more numerous. Not only that, but Karameikos is a prime gathering place for paladins...a kind of Mecca if you will! Okay, i can see this. I agree that Karameikos would be the best place to launch these paladins into. It would work great. Their hometowns would gain some fame....the imigration would rise. economy....everything would profit. Which is a few of the reasons why the King and the Church would love to embrace these guys as the best of Karameikos. >And if you have >any idea of other names, I'd love to hear them since I'm just not happy with Sheild and Sword. I'll get back to ya on this one.... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:39:13 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (undead) << I am unsure if a skeletons feet would cause noticable friction. IIRC undead make no noise in moving. And since noise lays with the striking of feet to stone, the friction should also be lacking. >> Since they are bound together by magic...there is no friction. No joints, tendons.... nothing..... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:42:19 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Only short comments: >Since a lot of my friends are heavily into computer games (including myself), I find it interesting if very annoying that they seem to prefer the mindless, repetitive stat-raising computer games to character- building roleplaying games. The central point in this discussion is that a new breed of these games allows interaction with other people - notably Diablo and Ultima Online - but still with very little (or no) plot, and hence no character development. I can totally agree. >In Ultima, for example (for those of you who have not heard of it), you run around doing a pseudo-real world profession - such as lumberjacking, mining, fletching, blacksmithing, tailoring, etc. - to get money to start adventuring proper. >... I don´t agree. Think of the "old" Ultima games. You had to develop your traits by interacting with NPC and you had to be humble, kind, brave, ... to get access to certain temples, meet specific persons, ... This was very interactive compared to the computergames nowadays and was very interactive compared to many modules and game-systems that was merchandized then. Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:42:19 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D One final comment (for now) ><< Style is up to the DM. AD&D suffers under the illusion that if they >make a rule then you must use it. >... >AD&D lures DMs to create and use tables and dice rolls for all and nothing. But (A)D&D is a Role Play Game and not a Roll Play Game. >... >Jamuga Khan If you think it that terrifying then just don´t do it in your campaign. But think of a newbie-DM. In his position some basic rules are the only guidelines he has. Experience comes with time and then he can adjust the rules to his (AND THE GROUPS´) liking. Or have you been born a perfect DM?? *if really then I envy you* Another thing: you can tell the "good" from the "bad" rules only if you tested their influence on the game. Last comment: If you cry over the rolls and the tables take a look at Rolemaster or MERP (same system). There you can really see tables and rules that restrict the DM. Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:43:41 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Shouldn't Avengers be penalized for doing good *within* the confines of the law? >> I think Avengers have thier own law that they go by. They must strictly follow the law that they think is right. It's not like any town they go into...they just find out what the laws are and break em. If they agree with the laws of a certain place then there is no problem. If they disagree with the laws....like say "In town grounds...all weapons must be sheathed and tied in". Then, they wont care about that law and just ignore it. Why? Because it doesn't go by "thier" law. And that's the only one they consider going by. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:47:12 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << I might gain flames from somebody, but this ability grabbing is IMO the greatest flaw of AD&D. -Jamuga Khan >> no flames...i'll just explain it better. It's not AD&D....i'm talking about granted powers that priests get from thier Immortals... Certain ones give thier priests infravision....cause light wounds as a bonus spell....things like that. i said instead of haveing the normal Paladin abilities....maybe they would instead get the same abilities that thier deity give the priests of the same faith. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:55:24 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara At 08:21 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hey Mystaran's: >Just a quick "I was wondering..." set of questions: I asked similar questions about a month ago and got a grand total of 2 responses. I really hope you have better luck! >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? I prefer the Gazetteer Era. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? Well, I am rather partial to Alphatia and the Alphatian/Thyatian conflict. The central conflict, if there is one, is moved westward after WotI. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? I think especially including Pre-Wrath militaries. >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? I think the Gazetteers and the timelines provide some great potential for time travel adventures. Also I would love to see more Blackmoor modules. We were really left hanging after DA4. What the heck is the "fearsome Egg of Coot" anyway??!! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #115 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:24:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #116 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Wednesday, February 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 116 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead (was: Random Thoughts) Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:58:51 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 10:50 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 07:06 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>>Wasn't there a list of spells that were not prevented by the SoP but were simply unknown in the HW? Has anyone considered the ramifications? >>>Yes, there is such a list since the WotI. What kind of ramifications btw? >>The ramifications of having a whole continent of people who know those spells now loose in the HW. >Incidentally, I find it hard to believe that in the thousands of years since the Hollow World was first settled, no mages have learned any of those 'forgotten' spells. 95% of wizards of 9th level or higher know Fireball and Lightning Bolt. But of all the wizards that ever got transported to the HW, NONE of them remembers or even knew these spells?! Come on, let's get real. The only way this could happen is if the Immortals wiped the memory of all those 'forgotten' spells from all the name-level wizards' memories. Soall the Nithian wizards, the Azcan wizards, the Milenian wizards, the Icevale elves, the Antalian wizards, the Tanagoro wizards, etc. all lost these spells because of Immortal tampering. I have always considered it silly that the wizards of Blackmoor, those detailed in DA1-DA4, had the same spells as those in the modern time. Wasn't there any significant advancement or loss during all those years? When I run those modules I tend to limit some of the spells, change the appearance of others, and add a few special ones. >Do you buy it? If so, fine. If not, fine. However, here's a VERY significant point. Well fine then! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:12:19 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) At 10:37 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 05:10 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >>>No. But the system needs to be modified to fit into the setting. AD&D could need some modifications to fit better with Mystara. Fitting Mystara to AD&D as some game designers seemed to try, only removes interesting details from the setting. >>I agree with you so much on this point. >Mystara CAN work in an AD&D environment. Maybe they didn't do a perfect job with the Karameikos boxed set, but it followed the first Gazetteer pretty well, and established Karameikos in the current timeline (1012 AC). Can't you imagine the poor Shadowelf unit that is in charge of "greeting" visitors to their realm? "Yes, we're sure you are very much surprised that we have been living for centuries beneath the surface and yet our skin is pale" *eye roll* "No, we do NOT get kicks out of hurting people and we don't have any particular beef against humans..." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:21:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >Hey Mystaran's: >Just a quick "I was wondering..." set of questions: >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? I like playing all the way from ~995-1010+ >2) Why do you prefer that Era? Um, I like the pre-wrath era because it's when all the gazeteers are set. There's 14 of those books, plus DotE and HW. It's a lot of material and there's less need to alter it like you need to do after WotI. Also because I played so much in that time I kinda like it :) But I also like to play during Wrath, simply because it's so epic! Mighty wars, daring deads, PC's setting cities on fire, you gotta love it :) Running my second WotI campaign now, and it's just terrific fun. I'm also going to keep the campaign going on after WotI, but I'll propably veer away from the PWA's version of history since the PC's will hopefully have a big impact on world events. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided >but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information >provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? I'm not sure how they would handle both pre and post Wrath in the same book, unless it was set 1000AC with maybe a chapter or two detailing the future history of the next 15-20 years maybe? >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? On reflection I think I would like any new supplements to describe post Wrath developments, if only because it gives the writers more room to breath. It's difficult to set up a new and groovy idea if you have to think of the impact it would have on the next 15 years which are already mapped out. Also because I think WotI is about several things, but one of them is as a leveller and balancer of power. Pre-Wrath things seemed to be very stable, everyone was interested in the status-quo (this is probably just the way I played it, I hated going against what was in the books simply because I didn't want something to happen IMC that would then not let me use something from the next book!) which meant although PC's actions had influence, the way of the world was pretty much set. Also theres a difficulty of imagining how even a high level group of characters (15th+) could have much of an impact in places like Thyatis and Alphatia, there are just so many high level characters there, one more or less wizard won't make a huge difference. (or perhaps they might, this is all really a judgement call of how much level translates to gameworld influence.) With WotI we lose most of the really high level guys either due to war (especially in Thyatis) or the week without magic. Killed off a lot of the old folks I expect. This opens the way for young vibrant nations who were once small fish to have a big impact on the world. And for young vibrant PC's to do the same. (Karameikos is now a major world player for instance). All IMHO of course, gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:22:54 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 07:47 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >>In my campaign the barbarian tribes of Norwold use a bartering system mainly >>involving cattle. The king of each tribe is the guy who owns the most and the best cattle in the area. A fellow who desires to move up in the world has to make good deals that will increase his one cattle supply. >Now at least we are back to a discussion of Mystara itself as opposed to armchair social science about the RW. I am wondering when you will get over your hurt feelings regarding that post from the Admin that was NOT directed at you but at all of us who participated in that flame-filled thread. You are intelligent enough to have read our threads thoroughly and you know how we were relating it to Mystara. If you don't like the thread you are free to ignore it. But I will thank you not to make your thinly veiled pseudo-intellectual insults about our discussion. Can you post a write up of this >barter system? Well, it is really a roleplaying thing. The detail is as much as I related before. The characters spend a night or two as guests of a tribe and they learn about the importance of the cows likely through some cattle rustling that happens during the night. Then they can make the choice of helping retrieve the cattle or not. It would likely only be used in the south, right (north >too cold for cattle) but might extend into the Northern Reaches ... In RW history cows have always been an imporant symbol of power in various cultures. Well, the southern end of Norwold is where I have placed it. The CM1 module describes the area as temperate and the overall feel is that it is not nearly as cold as the Northern Reaches. But there are cattle that are bred to withstand the cold. In general I am only using it to give an overall "feeling". The word "impecunious" meaning poor derives from the Roman word >for cow ... literally it means cowless. Wow, I had no idea. I am always interested in etymology. The Hindu belief in the >sacredness of cows is supposed to derive from the economic importance of cows in ancient proto-Indo-European culture. In Africa, the Masai and the Tutsi among others consider cows a central symbol of ownership and class status. Another interesting object of importance in Africa is the yam. The man with the most yams is considered very important. He is the Yam King if you will. But don't ask me any more as my knowledge of this custom is entirely from the novel "Things Fall Apart" by Chinua Achebe. It is an interesting read, an African's view of the British invasion. >I wonder, in Sind are cows sacred? what Mystaran nations are famous for their cows? Maybe we need a livestock gazeteer! Not a bad idea. I wonder where Gorgons fit in...Minotaur...Enduks... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:24:55 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 10:29 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 04:49 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>However I see no problem with Immortals granting powers to such champions. But the class would have to be individualized for each Immortal. Including both abilities and rules of conduct. >>I doubt that anyone would dislike seeing this worked out. However, I don't think all Immortals would have any warrior types. >No, I can't see Rad having a round table of warriors who follow him. A circle of wizards would work, though :-) Or Koryis; hard to have specialty fighters who try not to fight. I have a particular sect of Alphatia preaching "peace through conquest". I don't think Koryis would go for that though... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:26:20 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail At 07:25 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>Here is one that has always confused me. In the Shadowelves Gazetteer the Shaman are always referred to with feminine pronouns. Yet nowhere does it state that only female Shadowelves can be Shaman. So was this just a sad attempt to be politically correct at the expense of clarity? >is it clearer when books use the masculine pronoun exclusively when they mean both genders? get with the times! When the masculine is used as a generic pronoun, yes it is clearer. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:27:47 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 11:24 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 07:47 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >>I wonder, in Sind are cows sacred? what Mystaran nations are famous for their cows? Maybe we need a livestock gazeteer! >I'm going to go by the trade maps in GAZ9 and GAZ11 on this one. >Cities that sell animals at good prices: >Specularum/Mirros >Tameronikas (Ylaruam) >Freiburg (Heldann) >Harbortown (Minrothad) >Cities that buy animals at good prices: Ierendi City >Athenos (Darokin) >Dengar (Rockhome) >Cities that sell meat at good prices: >Kerendas (Thyatis) >Athenos >Akorros (Darokin) >Alpha (Norwold) >Cities that buy meat at good prices: >Zeaburg (Ostland) >Jaboor (Ylaruam) >Malfton (Minrothad) >Filtot (Ierendi) >Harbortown >Stahl (Rockhome) >Vyonnes (Glantri) >I suppose Darokin would be home to a lot of prize cows, considering it is a highly agricultural society. The Shires and Karameikos would have decent livestock as well. Good investigative work Glen! Now we just need a suggestion on what livestock where... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:30:08 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D At 11:47 PM 2/24/98 +0000, you wrote: >>D&D is the original system; it has been mostly the same since 1974, with some revisions in the following years. But AD&D was printed in 1979. Gary Gygax himself said that AD&D rules "comprise a _different_ game...It is neither an expansion nor a revision of the old game: IT IS A NEW GAME." (Best of Dragon Vol. 2, pg. 39, reprinted from Dragon #26, June 1979) >Actually I had heard a rumor that D&D was created so that TSR could avoid paying royalties to Dave Arneson, who co-authored it. As I heard it, Arneson sued TSR for royalties on AD&D, and TSR wriggled out by claiming that he wrote D&D, but AD&D was a totally different game. Originally the D&D Basic set referred players to AD&D for 4th level and higher; after the lawsuit they revised it and introduced the Expert Set to make D&D into a totally separate line, thus securing their legal position. >I don't know if this is true or not... but if it is, and TSR/WotC has to pay royalties on it, I'd guess that D&D will NEVER be published again. Unfortunate, since IMO it is the better system. It is not just a rumor. It is true. But I believe WotC has settled the issue. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:33:09 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals At 11:47 PM 2/24/98 +0000, you wrote: >When were immoprtals first introduced to Mystara? I know they weren't mentioned in module X1. Did Aaron invent them for the Hollow World? I'm curious where they originated and how they became the default pantheon for Mystara. Are there any gazetteers or significant supplements that ever mention *gods* in association with Mystara (other than generic stuff like the evil temple in B2)? Are there any gazetteers that don't mention either gods or immortals? With the 2nd edition of the Basic Set the designers decided to leave the words "god", "priest", and "religion" out of it. The clerics of the D&D game were said to study a philosophy of alignment rather than anyparticular god. Immortals arrived on the scene with the Companion set of rules. But specific Immortals were not mentioned until M1 "Into the Maelstrom", unless one counts the artifact descriptions in the back of the Master Set. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:18 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >I always vary the monsters in D&D, and generally assume that humanoids can gain in levels just like humans. So a 15th level fighter might very well come up against a squad of 7th-level elite orcs led by a 9th-level captain! This keeps things unpredictable. You can have cookie-cutter monsters in ANY game system, if you merely use the descriptions straight out of the bestiary. Thats a good thing. However the system does not exactly encourage this. If you don't have Humanoids Handbook, the rules are very vague at this point, unlike systems like RuneQuest and GURPS where monsters are treated like NPCs. >In all honesty I think D&D magic is better than GURPS magic, at least as far as feeling "magical". Without getting into a rules discussion, I think I prefer arbitrary magic systems rather than the university-style scientific approach. I also like the huge flashy spells, which seem more wondrous and match the flavor of D&D/Mystara better. Could you explain what you mean with an "arbitrary" system? *** Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:48:46 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >=?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= pontificated: (Sorry if my name looks that bisarre to you :) try changing the translation into iso-8859-1) >>Dont know if you're looking for rules variants to xD&D or a new set of rules altogether. Try GURPS if you like. Its not a perfect system, but it works pretty well, in addition to being fairly easy to convert to from xD&D.. >I always find GURPS is not very good simulating high power fantasy, such as Mystara, and most of D&D game worlds. How did you work around that? Mainly, how to you convert high level character who have over 100 HP, or wizards who can throw several high level spells per day? The campaign I currently GM is pretty low powered at the moment, but that may change. You may have a point concerning wizards. The Wizards will always be limited by their HT score, which limits the number of/power of their spells. However, powerful mages are probaby quite likely to have a wide range of powerstones available which supply extra energy for spell casting. As for 100HP characters, thats a different story. As I see it, HP in the xD&D games is meant to represent a characters fighting ability as well as his life force. A powerful PC in GURPS will have high weapon and shield skills(which means he will have a high parry value) as well as a high HT score. Though the HT will not vary that much. This will not produce the kind of characters who can destroy whole armies. I dont find that too realistic and will probably avoid that IMC. However if you want such characters you may want to check out GURPS Supers. GURPS Celts might be of help too. The Celts have quite a bizarre overpowered mythology ;) Perhaps Leroy could comment further on this as he is more experienced with the GURPS system that me. Leroy are you there? :) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:56:00 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >>Paladins as described by people on this list, or at least thats what my impression from the mails I've been reading these two last days, are remarkable people. Truly unique one might say. Thus they can have no role in society that will have to be filled. They are at the best, heroes of legends. Their requirements are too extreme for there to exist an order of these people, or any kind of organization what so ever. >I see your point here. In fact, I can see where having an organization of paladins would indeed destroy the uniqueness of them. And would it be realistic? In all of Mythic Britain there was probably only one man who could live up to such standards. (Lancelot) >>However I see no problem with Immortals granting powers to such champions. But the class would have to be individualized for each Immortal. Including both abilities and rules of conduct. >I doubt that anyone would dislike seeing this worked out. However, I don't think all Immortals would have any warrior types. Agreed. Others have posted examples of Immortals unlikely to have paladins. There would probably be paladins of Vanya, Al-Kalim, the Church of Karameikos, Tarastia, Karaash and Ixion though. (Just to name a few) >>However, what we could create is a Fighter Kit, which is in many ways similar to the Paladin. But again, varies for each Immortal. Berserkers, would be the champions of Odin for instance. I know some people have expressed a dislike for Kits, and that is their right ofcourse. I do like the idea of Kits and prefer to keep the number of classes fairly low. Especially the ones which don't really fit into any culture. Ie, Paladins and Druids. >I have no dislike of kits (in most cases). So, paladin would be a descriptive term for a holy warrior type and not a class? I do think that druids do fit into certain cultures though and some Immortals would choose them as their specialty priest (to borrow an AD&D term). The kit would probably have lower requirements and could perhaps be very different from Immortal to Immortal. I'll comment on Druids in another mail. Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:57:55 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-23 16:53:22 EST, you write: << >Was it a Mystaran Shadow Elf? The revamped RL Setting material Domain of Dread >has a shadow elf darklord. However she is not a Mystaran SE. The SE is from Mystara. Thrown through a gate by an Alphatian wizard. Dave Keyser >> Thanks. Prior to its release the "shadow elf" darklord was a stir for the Mystara crowd on the Ravenloft boards on AOL. That is until either Cindi or Steve told us that she was not a Mystara Shadow Elf. Anyway I was curious. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:05:35 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead (was: Random Thoughts) In a message dated 98-02-24 05:12:27 EST, you write: << You maybe forget one thing, Alex: infravision only works in absence of light. And since the undead don't leave any infrared trace, demihumans cannot spot them: they simply don't exist for infravision. This means it is not a boon, rather it's a bane (and i've always used it this way). Infravision cannot be used to detect invisible creatures nor creatures whose body temperature is equal to temperature of the surrounding space. Likewise, undead, who do not emanate heat, are invisible to infravision unless they block a obvious (visible) source of heat (say they pass in front of a candlelight or an oven).>> I am not sure I'd call it a bane. It really depends on the player and the DM and how they use it. Kind of back to the dragon thing. Where both DM and player use the available info to the most advantage. <> I do not have that issue. I'll check at the TSR site to see if it is available online. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:07:02 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >This is one aspect that I think the Dragonlance SAGA system is superior. It's the ability of the mage to harness the magical forces for an effect not a set number of spells. I've seen in novels and movies where a magical scroll is needed to defeat the foe. That's its sole purpose. In D&D, you can copy the spell in a spellbook and use it any time you need to banish a god of darkness! Nothing mystical about that, after all, it's just a spell. Magic should reflect who is casting it. DRAGON has published articles about doing this but the system just isn't presented as being made 'personal'. I totally agree with you. The SAGA magic system is very interesting. However it would need some modifications if it was to be used with Mystara. I might have a look into that... Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:13:28 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-23 10:02:08 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >>No reason why we can't just ignore Planescape if we want to. IMO major >>changes will have to be done to Mystara if we want to fit it into planescape. And Mystaras Multiverse is fascinating aswell. why bother? >The biggest differences between D&D and AD&D in regard to the Outer Planes are as follows: >1) In AD&D, it is possible to access the Astral Plane directly from the Prime Material Plane. In D&D, you have to get there via the Ethereal Plane -- there is no Astral Projection in D&D. >2) In AD&D, the Outer Planes are arranged in a pattern based on the L/N/C and G/N/E alignment axes. In D&D, there is no particular arrangement -- and, for that matter, no theoretical limit to the number of Outer Planes. I disagree. This main difference between the Outer Planes is that one has Immortals and one has Powers. (I'm not talking about AD&D vs D&D here, but rather Mystara Multiverse vs Planescape) And I dont think the two are compatible. If you want to use Planescape with Mystara you'll have to change a few things. The easiest way would be to say that Mystara is just another prime plane and ignore most of whats written about the Immortals. However I dont do that. Mystara and Planescape will always be a crossover campaign. No more, no less. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:18:26 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >At 06:30 PM 2/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >>I know some people have expressed a dislike for Kits, and that is their right ofcourse. I do like the idea of Kits and prefer to keep the number of classes fairly low. Especially the ones which don't really fit into any culture. Ie, Paladins and Druids. >Paladins have a place in any medieval/feudal culture with a strong religious presence, especially an Arthurian or Charlemagne-like setting. And whoever heard of a Celtic setting without druids? Kits help individualize these classes, as with any other class, but paladins and druids are certainly viable without them. What I have been trying to say earlier is that Paladins do not represent a class of people in the same way as fighter and wizard do. They are unique people and they have no society would depend on them in any other way than as the Hero of legends. The Druids of AD&D have nothing to do with the Celtic Druids. They would have to be changed radically to fit that role. And if we're talking Mystara here, the Druids, if reworked, would normally only fit into cultures like Robrenn. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:22:10 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >Forgot a point; Druids would certainly fit in Robrenn (Savage Coast), and Paladins are a natural for Karameikos or even the Heldann Freeholds (depending on how you portray the Heldannic Knights; not all of them are scum-sucking Haldemar-haters. I agree. However, what I said in my previous mail still applies. If there are Paladins and Druids, the cultures you mention will be most likely to have them. I like your thoughts about the HEldannic Knights being more that what they were portrayed as in Princess Ark. There are always more than one side tom a culture. Like the Shadowelves. Anyone thought of adding more dimensions to the Hattians btw? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #116 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:33:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #117 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Wednesday, February 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 117 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. Re: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:24:34 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia in the HW (was: Mages of Alphatia) In a message dated 98-02-24 13:38:58 EST, you write: << Err, umm, no. The *only* thing that's preventing the Blacklore Elves from actually creating the real technology is the fact that not a single one has idea of how's it's even supposed to work, let alone how to build it. Remember, that the Blacklore Elves were/are nothing more than consumers of their technology. >> Yes. The Blacklore are truly pathetic. They are pampered to death with technology that they do not understand. And that technology isn't even real technology. It is Immortal based. Automatons build and maintain everything for the Blacklore. IMO the Blacklore are just there. Still, the tech level is a good measuring stick to get an idea of the tech level the Blackmoor had prior to GRoF. IMO the Blacklore's tech level was a decade or so behind that of the Blackmoor. Since the Blacklore basically got their tech from the Blackmoor, it is reasonable that the donor would keep the recipient slightly behind it. Therefore the Blackmoor would always be ahead and thus the Blacklore would look up to them and to them for the tech upgrades. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:25:15 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >No, I can't see Rad having a round table of warriors who follow him. A circle of wizards would work, though :-) Or Koryis; hard to have specialty fighters who try not to fight. I agree. As I said in my response to Galwylin, not all Immortals would have Paladins. I dont like the way pacifists are treated in Fantasy worlds. Would it not be possible for a warrior to believe in peace. And in solving conflicts peacefully? They could be peacekeeping forces. (like the UN? ;P ) Ramblings, it seems. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:39:06 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 02:56 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >>>Paladins as described by people on this list, or at least thats what my impression from the mails I've been reading these two last days, are remarkable people. Truly unique one might say. Thus they can have no role in society that will have to be filled. They are at the best, heroes of legends. Their requirements are too extreme for there to exist an order of >>>these people, or any kind of organization what so ever. >>I see your point here. In fact, I can see where having an organization of paladins would indeed destroy the uniqueness of them. >And would it be realistic? In all of Mythic Britain there was probably only one man who could live up to such standards. (Lancelot) Well the point is not to have a perfect man. But a man who lives up to the standard and is sorry anytime there is a transgression. Even Lancelot sinned, but no one doubts that he was the 2nd best paladin ever to have lived. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:29:32 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Half elves On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-23 10:11:41 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >>A comment on Genetics: >>There may actually be no such thing as genetics in Mystara. Things might work very differently. Especially with the Elves who are magical creatures. >That depends on what you mean by genetics. If you mean Mendelian rules of inheritance, you are probably right -- we have plenty of evidence that the creatures of D&D/AD&D worlds (even humans) differ from us at a microscopic level. >But if by genetics you mean any pattern at all to inheritance -- I am sure that >Mystara does have genetics of that sort. If you know what the parents of a particular offspring are, you can generally make some educated guesses about the nature of the offspring. I think we agree here. The intention of my mail was to point out that not everything concerning genetics neccesarily apply to Mystara. I.e mutations may have quite different reasons than that of the real world. They would probably be considered curses or blessings. That doesn't mean that a person doesn't inherit characteristics from his parents etc. ofcourse. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:45:34 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Converting to AD&D (was A post you need to read) At 03:13 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >>In a message dated 98-02-23 10:02:08 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >>>No reason why we can't just ignore Planescape if we want to. IMO major >>>changes will have to be done to Mystara if we want to fit it into planescape. And Mystaras Multiverse is fascinating aswell. why bother? >>The biggest differences between D&D and AD&D in regard to the Outer Planes are as follows: >>1) In AD&D, it is possible to access the Astral Plane directly from the Prime >>Material Plane. In D&D, you have to get there via the Ethereal Plane -- there >>is no Astral Projection in D&D. >>2) In AD&D, the Outer Planes are arranged in a pattern based on the L/N/C and G/N/E alignment axes. In D&D, there is no particular arrangement -- and, for that matter, no theoretical limit to the number of Outer Planes. >I disagree. This main difference between the Outer Planes is that one has Immortals and one has Powers. (I'm not talking about AD&D vs D&D here, but rather Mystara Multiverse vs Planescape) And I dont think the two are compatible. If you want to use Planescape with Mystara you'll have to change a few things. The easiest way would be to say that Mystara is just another prime plane and ignore most of whats written about the Immortals. However I dont do that. >Mystara and Planescape will always be a crossover campaign. No more, no less. What do you disagree with? It sounds like you agree with the statement that "Mystara is in a seperate multiverse from AD&D". The Mystaran Astral of the old Immortals Set (which I am partial to) is described as being like space but with many planes floating in that space. The planes are represented by 3-d shapes (I know, this is an apparent contradiction given the math that is prevalent in that set. I consider it more of a dimensional perception) of all sizes. An Immortal has the power to take his plane and actually move it wherever he wishes. Therefore "maps" of the Astral are always temporary in Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:53:12 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 03:22 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >>Forgot a point; Druids would certainly fit in Robrenn (Savage Coast), and Paladins are a natural for Karameikos or even the Heldann Freeholds (depending on how you portray the Heldannic Knights; not all of them are scum-sucking Haldemar-haters. >I agree. However, what I said in my previous mail still applies. If there are Paladins and Druids, the cultures you mention will be most likely to have them. >I like your thoughts about the HEldannic Knights being more that what they were portrayed as in Princess Ark. There are always more than one side tom a culture. Like the Shadowelves. Anyone thought of adding more dimensions to the Hattians btw? My players first encountered the Heldannic knights as adversaries. They learned firsthand the atrocities commited by these knights. In Freiburg the players encountered a band of young would-be "freedom fighters" who wished to restore the freeholds to what they were and push out the knights. The only problem was that these were just kids. The oldest was 19 but the youngest was 13. The moral choice for the characters (and one that I feared they would not make) was to convince these kids to not go ahead with their planned vandalisms and to stay out of trouble. Then later they returned to the country as part of the Dragon Mountain adventure. There is a warrior encountered in a cage along the road, all beat up and unconscious. They rescued this fellow and healed him and he helped in defeating the bad guy (a forester under a spell). But when they each found out that they were from enemy lands there was a gulf between them. The characters were from Norwold, and while not exactly enemies, they still considered the Heldannic Knights to be bad guys. They could not be friends with this fellow. For his part, the Heldannic Knight considered it a matter of honor to let the heroes leave without calling in the knights to capture them (they were wanted in Freiburg). However he asked them to immediately leave so that he would not have to deal with the pain of his conscience for too long. All this sounds rather contrived since I am summing it up in a paragraph or two. But I am sure you get the picture... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:55:55 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 03:25 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >>No, I can't see Rad having a round table of warriors who follow him. A circle of wizards would work, though :-) Or Koryis; hard to have specialty fighters who try not to fight. >I agree. As I said in my response to Galwylin, not all Immortals would have Paladins. I dont like the way pacifists are treated in Fantasy worlds. Would it not be possible for a warrior to believe in peace. And in solving conflicts peacefully? They could be peacekeeping forces. (like the UN? ;P ) Like I said in an earlier post, I have a certain contingent of Alphatia who believes in "peace through conquest". But I like having all out pacifists like Koryis who actually lord it over people and attempt to force feed peace as seen in "Into the Maelstrom" and...the Thotia adventure... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:25:57 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? >Bruce Heard: Princess Ark series, M1 (introducing Alphatia/Thyatis conflict), GAZ3 (Glantri), GAZ10 (Broken Lands) Err..CM1 introduced the Alphatia-Thyatis-Norworld conflict originally, as it preceded M1. Also, M2 (Skip Williams) did a good job of furthering that whole concept. I also think Bruce did X2, simply because I always see him associated with Glantri products...X2 was perhaps the 2nd real Mystara module as well as the first Glantri one? >Jim Bambra: GAZ12 (Ethengar), PC3 (Undersea) Also the co-author of B10, which expanded on Karameikos better than any other module I've seen. Two other names came across for multiple material while looking through my collection: David Cook-B6 (The Veiled Society) and X1 (Isle of Dread). B6 gave us our first expanded glance of a Mystara city and its politics, while X1 gave us our first information on Mystaran nations generally I think. Douglas Niles-CM1 (Test of the warlords-Norworld,Alphatia,Thyatis intro) and X3 (Curse of Xanathon)-the first source of info I think on relations between human and demihuman nations as well as expanding the world. I don't have X4 or X5, but I believe those were penned by the same author and seem to be a major source of info for Mystara as they are frequently mentioned on the list Baseball was made for kids, and grown-ups only screw it up - Hall of Fame pitcher Bob Lemon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:36:44 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara >1)Gazetters for areas not already described. The thing with this is that everybody has their own favorite area they want developed, so getting a group effort for any one area is difficult. A few projects have been done (both group and individual) for such GAZes though. Looking through the Mystara web pages, you should be able to find ones on the Sand Folk of Blackmoor, on Hule, Wendar, the Hollow World Malpheggi and a few others. If you have any area you really want to see developed, my best advise is to ask on the list for that specific locale and to see how many other people will want to help on said project. And as well as developing old areas, some list members have done wonderful jobs of detailing new areas that they have placed on the map of Mystara. >4)All of the NPCs people have ever made (I know this was brought up by someone already but let's compile a list). Very good idea! I don't think it'd be good to just post a whole bunch of descriptions to the list though. Someone could volunteer to organize the whole thing, create a basic format for us to fill out (I, at least, prefer consistenct of organization between responses) and then compile the received forms by class or race or nationality. It would be a very nice resource to have IMO. >5)The types of worship, devotion or whatever that clerics actually do for their Immortals Another nice idea, but this may be too large in scope...there must be tons of sects for each immortal, and there are MANY immortals. A few in-depth posts regarding Mystara religious observances would be nice though. Baseball was made for kids, and grown-ups only screw it up - Hall of Fame pitcher Bob Lemon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:44:09 -0500From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 10:25 AM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Bruce Heard: Princess Ark series, M1 (introducing Alphatia/Thyatis conflict), GAZ3 (Glantri), GAZ10 (Broken Lands) >Err..CM1 introduced the Alphatia-Thyatis-Norworld conflict originally, as it preceded M1. Also, M2 (Skip Williams) did a good job of furthering that whole concept. I also think Bruce did X2, simply because I always see him associated with Glantri products...X2 was perhaps the 2nd real Mystara module as well as the first Glantri one? Good comments. But wasn't X2 done by David Cook? >Douglas Niles-CM1 (Test of the warlords-Norworld,Alphatia,Thyatis intro) and X3 (Curse of Xanathon)-the first source of info I think on relations between human and demihuman nations as well as expanding the world. >I don't have X4 or X5, but I believe those were penned by the same author and seem to be a major source of info for Mystara as they are frequently mentioned on the list It was definitely David Cook who wrote the original Desert Nomad modules. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:42:01 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (long) In a message dated 98-02-24 17:39:48 EST, you write: << Some interesting excerpts from Roger E. Moore article in Dragon #211. >> [excerpt snipped] Thanks. In some ways the article supports my side. In others, it opposes. Either way it answers my questions. Once again thanks. Alex "If this is Canon, then I must be Martin Luther. But then again, are not we all?" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:46:25 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-24 18:49:28 EST, you write: >No significant magical research is possible. Advances in magic or >technology are not possible due to the Spell of Preservation. If that's true then the you have a paradox. No magical advances but a preservation of the Alphatian trait of magical research. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:55:11 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision In a message dated 98-02-24 17:28:51 EST, you write: << True. But we were talking about skeletons. IMO skeletons are not that silent a moster. Imagine all those bones moving, creaking and (why not) generating friction :-) Other corporeal undeads may be smelled... I don't think undead have a good scent... >> IIRC skeletons are pretty quiet. I see your point with the rattling bones. Here is my explaination. The magical force that animates the skeleton thoroughly envelopes the bones. This force is what allows the bones to move. Not only does this give them "life" but it links the joints and effectively lubricates the bones. No grinding joints. No rattling bones. No clattering. The bottoms of the feet would be insulated with the magical force and therefore cushion the bone from the floor. The rattling sounds of bones only occur due to damage taken by the skeletal remains. The force is breached and weakened. Bones are crushed and broken. If the force is weakened enough by damage (loss of HP) the animated skeletons falls to the ground in peices. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:24 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) >>I prefer arbitrary magic systems rather than the university-style scientific approach. >Could you explain what you mean with an "arbitrary" system? Some magic systems, like that in GURPS or perhaps Ars Magica, are very methodical and systematic. Also, GURPS has a lot of mundane spells, because the authors thought about magic logically and realistically about it. And to be fair, if magic were real, it would probably look a lot like what GURPS portrays. The problem to me is that realistic magic systems feel more like a science, and lack the mystery and wonder that I associate with magic. If you think about it, GURPS magic is really identical to real-world science: careful study and application of natural law. This can make a fantasy campaign feel more like science-fiction. A system like D&D doesn't make sense. It is full of contradictions, disconnects, and arbitrary rules. This makes it utterly unpredictable and incomprehensible (because there is actually nothing there to comprehend). Somehow, for me, that makes it seem more magical and fantastic than more logical systems. I suppose the ideal system would be freeform, or would allow wizards to construct new spells easily. Unfortunately, to do that you have to define magic, which IMO ruins it. Just going freeform might work if your players are pretty mature, but risks completely unbalancing everything since a wizard can theoretically do anything. The only spell construction system I've found that seems to work for me is Fantasy Hero, probably because it manages to keep things balanced without imposing any logic or order on things. The other "ideal" system is not to let your players cast spells, so magic becomes a plot device that cannot be abused, and the players never know what to expect. In the end, of course, it is a personal preference. Some people very much prefer systems like GURPS or Ars Magica, just like some people prefer more detailed combat or character generation. Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:19:26 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Gordon McCormick wrote: >when reading through a lot of the gazetteers it's quite obvious that the people writing them aren't trying *too* hard to fit them in with everything else. As it should be I suppose, they were writing an accessory which could Actually, at least some of the Gazetteer authors are also involved in Glorantha/RuneQuest development, especially Unka Kenny (Ken Rolston). The entire philosophy behind Glorantha development has been that every source will contradict and conflict with every other source to some extent or another, because no source is omniscient. Every source has a point of view, thus it will present matters from a different slant. Furthermore, no source has complete information on anything. Finally, all published material is presumed to be a collection of myths, legends, songs, scholarly "reconstructions", etc. made centuries or *millenia* after the actual events mentioned--thus even published material could be in error regarding the actual "reality" of the world. Given this design philosophy, it's no wonder that the Gazetteers don't perfectly agree on all points. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >I don't know much about the origin of Greyhawk but what I gather is that it was Gary Gygax's creation. Greyhawk started out as a "medieval wargames" campaign in a fictional (but non-fantasy) setting. It had fantasy elements added (during the development of the "fantasy supplement" for the Chainmail rules) and slowly evolved into a roleplaying campaign from its wargaming roots. I got this from Joy (I forget her last name)--she was Gygax's secretary before he got shoved into TSR's "entertainment division". She was also the model for a few Dragon covers. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:35:24 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 12:19 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Gordon McCormick wrote: >>when reading through a lot of the gazetteers it's quite obvious that the people writing them aren't trying *too* hard to fit them in with everything else. As it should be I suppose, they were writing an accessory which could >Actually, at least some of the Gazetteer authors are also involved in Glorantha/RuneQuest development, especially Unka Kenny (Ken Rolston). The entire philosophy behind Glorantha development has been that every source will contradict and conflict with every other source to some extent or another, because no source is omniscient. Every source has a point of view, thus it will present matters from a different slant. Furthermore, no source has complete information on anything. >Finally, all published material is presumed to be a collection of myths, legends, songs, scholarly "reconstructions", etc. made centuries or *millenia* after the actual events mentioned--thus even published material could be in error regarding the actual "reality" of the world. Actually the Gazzetteers say pretty much the same thing. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:54:17 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >Shouldn't Avengers be penalized for doing good *within* the confines of the law? They really seem to be based on a sort of vigilante concept; Nope. That's the thing about being Chaotic--do what you want to do and damn law. Of course, one ought to resist if rules are imposed, but going out of your way to find out what the law is in order to not follow the law is an extremly methodical and *orderly* way to live your life. How is this different from Neutral? A Neutral will comply with laws if they are not excessively obtrusive. A Chaotic resents the very concept of law and only happens to comply with group goals when they are his own goals. A Neutral can see the value of putting the group first AND can see the value of individuality. A Chaotic only sees the value of individuality. However, finding out the law only to break it may not be "lawful", but it is also not "chaotic" from a philosophical standpoint--such a behavior is merely "anti-lawful"--but it is an orderly behavior, nonetheless. Chaos would not be that orderly. >One reason might be that Avengers do not *trust* the law or those who serve it. This would be especially appropriate if the law has lots of >process. Whatever the reason, an Avenger should greatly resist using lawful means. In fact he should face nearly the same dilemma as a The problem is that what are "lawful means"? What if "lawful" includes "kill on sight" *or* "bring in for trial" or even "impose appropriate punishment yourself", whichever the arrestor desires? Is an avenger thus obliged to let the evil continue, since the law covers so many bases? The problem I see for an avenger is that the forces of law should be down on his ass all the time for going outside the system and dealing with people who are supposedly not to be touched. Then again, I tend to see all governmental agencies as ultimately corrupt. >definition, means "not aligned". A neutral person lacks direction and discipline. This suggests that a neutral paladin desires to do good, but has not chosen (or perhaps cannot choose) between the paths of law enforcement or vigilante justice. Such a person will flounder, trying this and that, and will often be ineffective overall. Lacking a strong Or he is a truly mature soul, one who has risen beyond the petty squabbles of "law" and "chaos" and sees that each is a tool to be used when appropriate, but not to be used regardless of the situation at hand. >also hates total anarchy. He probably believes that barbarism is the natural state of mankind, and probably secretly admires orcs. He is a subversive and a malcontent. IMO the whole notion is a wierd play on the D&D alignment rules that has no basis in myth or reality, one that Conan--Robert Howard pretty much believed that civilization is an evil that is only somewhat necessary. It is better than complete anarchy, but only if it doesn't go to far. It does just so happen that REH's work was a major inspiration for D&D. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:01:11 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >then 12 at any one time. I think the number 12 came up by later writers who just want to concentrate the story on Lancelot and Aurthor, and cut out rest of the characters from their stories. Twelve may also be a conscious attempt to make the knights parallel the Apostles. The paring to twelve may have come about the same time that inhuman abomination Galahad appeared. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:12:25 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals The first time I heard of them was when I got my copy of the Masters Set. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:23:47 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>Finally, all published material is presumed to be a collection of myths, legends, songs, scholarly "reconstructions", etc. made centuries or *millenia* after the actual events mentioned--thus even published material could be in error regarding the actual "reality" of the world. >Actually the Gazzetteers say pretty much the same thing. Then why do some people get all up in arms about something not being "canonical"? Even the "published canon" admits that it isn't actually canonical! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:31:18 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << Dieties are notorious for doing things that cause problems later on in which they have to fix. Probably the reason they do things wrong to first place so no one ever gets the chance to no longer need them. >> And they are counteracting against themselves all the time... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #117 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:29:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #118 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Wednesday, February 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 118 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara/Glorantha [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Names Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Names Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Slovak Names Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:31:21 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Random Thoughts << BTW: what about a vampire in wolf or bat form, is he still "cold"? >> He is still a vampire, so I think "yes"... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:31:23 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics << Theoretically yes, but IMO Rad main interest is to study the Radiance and the Radiance is only in Glantri... at least until Rafiel completes his reactor. Moreover I don't see how the faith in Rad can expand in the nations bordering Glantri. >> Yes, his MAIN interest, but not his ONLY... << >On the other hand imagine a strong believer without the talent to >become a magic-user. Rad may appear him and tell him about another way to casts spells, more dangerous, but profitable. What about going to the Great School of Magic in Glantri City instead? :-) I don't see the need of talent to become a magic user. You need talent to become a great magic user, but IMO everyone (even someone with Int = 3) can be a magic user. He won't be a good MU (in game terms he won't reach high levels), but he would still be a MU. In RW not all football players are good, maybe some of them would have done better in another sport, but nevertheless they play football. >> You might be alone with this opinion. Normally we assume that you need to have the right genes to cast magic. It is not simply a matter of intelligence or interest. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:35:14 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D >AD&D lures DMs to create and use tables and dice rolls for all and nothing. But (A)D&D is a Role Play Game and not a Roll Play Game. As with anything the tables can be used when you want to! When i'm in the game and my PC's stray off the planed pathi sure like to have a random encounter table lying around. But if i roll something i don't like I make something up. Also with every product that i've read made for AD&D it says "Roll on the table if you want to, if you do roll and don't like the rusult Dont use it!" Its not the AD&D system that determins how much RP is involved it is each individual DM. So I don't think this is a valid argument. Steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:32:15 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:58 EST, you wrote: >>In a message dated 98-02-23 16:45:50 EST, you write: >><< Chris Paul Billows wrote: >>>By the way, what is the Classic D&D boxed set put out... this is considered >>the >>>sixth and last edition of the rules... does it contain all the rules (Basic >>to >>>Immortals)? >>I don't have that product but from the '94 catalog description, I got the impression is was a smaller box version of the large black box. I would guess then that it only went from 1-5 levels. >> >>The Classic D&D Set covers levels 1-5. Essentially it is the same as the previous Rules Sets that covered the same levels. Monster descriptions are almost exactly the same. >Did it include the rules for healing damage by resting, spell disruption by an attack, acid damage, or equipment damage which were in the '81 rules but dropped in '83 (Red Book) and thus left out of the RC? What were the rules for resting to heal damage? What do most people use? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:45:58 +0100 (MET) From: ferro@clipper.ens.fr (Frederic Ferro) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara/Glorantha Someone wrote : >Actually, at least some of the Gazetteer authors are also involved in Glorantha/RuneQuest development, especially Unka Kenny (Ken Rolston). IIRC, Ken Rolston (a.k.a the Rune Czar) wrote the Ylaruam Gazetteer for Mystara and he wrote especially about Prax for Glorantha (Prax is a country of hot steppes with many nomad tribes like Atruaghin or Ethengar). >The entire philosophy behind Glorantha development has been that every source will contradict and conflict with every other source to some extent or another, because no source is omniscient. Every source has a point of view, thus it will present matters from a different slant. Furthermore, no source has complete information on anything. Yes, there is a subjective POV in Glorantha but there is still one world creator (Greg Stafford) and a unity which doesn't always exist in Mystara. The Gazetteers used to give IMO an impression of "Mosaic", of incoherent "jigsaw". Frederic Ferro - -- mailto:ferro@clipper.ens.fr http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/1054 "The dawn is my Assyria; the sun-set and moon-rise my Paphos, and unimaginable realms of Faerie; broad noon shall be my England of the senses & understanding; the night shall be my Germany of mystic philosophy and dreams."-- Emerson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:51:15 +0100 (MET) From: ferro@clipper.ens.fr (Frederic Ferro) Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Names Does anyone know : 1. the name of the governor in the Castles of the Borderlands in the 1000's (Karameikos) ? 2. the name of the Red Dragon in the Wyrms Teeth (Norwold) ? He (or she?) is mentioned in PWAII but has no "official" name... Frederic Ferro - -- mailto:ferro@clipper.ens.fr http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/1054 "The dawn is my Assyria; the sun-set and moon-rise my Paphos, and unimaginable realms of Faerie; broad noon shall be my England of the senses & understanding; the night shall be my Germany of mystic philosophy and dreams."-- Emerson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:16:09 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 01:23 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>>Finally, all published material is presumed to be a collection of myths, legends, songs, scholarly "reconstructions", etc. made centuries or *millenia* after the actual events mentioned--thus even published material could be in error regarding the actual "reality" of the world. >>Actually the Gazzetteers say pretty much the same thing. >Then why do some people get all up in arms about something not being "canonical"? Even the "published canon" admits that it isn't actually canonical! Please, that debate is over. Let it lie. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:20:20 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Names At 07:51 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >Does anyone know : >1. the name of the governor in the Castles of the Borderlands in the 1000's (Karameikos) ? I believe his name is actually "Castellan" as is the Keep. >2. the name of the Red Dragon in the Wyrms Teeth (Norwold) ? He (or she?) is mentioned in PWAII but has no "official" name... It is definitely a he as he is referred to as the "Lord of the Wyrmsteeth". I will try and remember to look up his name in CM1... >Frederic Ferro >-- >mailto:ferro@clipper.ens.fr http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/1054 "The dawn is my Assyria; the sun-set and moon-rise my Paphos, and unimaginable >realms of Faerie; broad noon shall be my England of the senses & understanding; >the night shall be my Germany of mystic philosophy and dreams."-- Emerson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:53:42 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? Right now I'm playing in the Post-Wrath. My Campaign is set in the HW empire of Melenia(sp) right after the Week Without Magic. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? There are alot of exciting goings on in the Hollow World at this time. The arival of Alphania, The Heldanners buzzing around and creating havoc. Also Alphania Netharum is an influence. Another thing that i've made a large influence in my Campaign right now is the Sun Wights introduced in the HW boxed set. I've got my PC's feeling that they were responsible for bringing these creatures to the Hollow World and now they are on a quest to try and diminish thier numbers. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided >but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? >c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information >provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? C) this product would have the greatest appeal to all the Mystara lovers. I think that A) would have good apeal too but for the masses i think C) is the way to go. >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? Change is fun.....uhh. I think thats about it. steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:39:27 -0000 From: "Alan Jones" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? Running a WotI Campaign (but my PC's don't know it ... yet thow they are becoming aware that something is going on. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? I liked the globe spanning nature of it. It fitted in with the other thread (the reconstruction of a mythical sword) that is running through the campaign. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided >but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information >provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? c please as I don't have all the Gaz at the moment - but I'm trying! >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? Having come late to D&D and living in the UK (so we didn't get all the stuff anyway or at least only occasionally as only a few shops in the bigger towns and cities stock D&D) ANY information on Mystara is welcome. Not that I can't create things myself - it's just with a wife and a job and a garden there is only so much time left for D&D! Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon / Thoria Hammerwrecker / Deris Of Clan Blackstar / Jodotha "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important" - Gary Gygax http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:23:37 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << The more complicated you make a thing, the more difficult it becomes to remember >> I don't see why you wouldn't just document it then.... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:30:04 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision << Hope this helps. >> Well, that did clear up just about everything i think..... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message.------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:29:31 -0500 From: Ray Brooks Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Alrighty! Here we go... Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? I personally have a fondness for the Gazetteer era. I still remember buying GAZ 1 years ago when my family was on vacation visiting relatives. It had just come out and took me completely by surprise. I was absolutely enchanted. I do currently have a campaign going in the Post Wrath period, just a couple of years after Duke Stephan declared himself king. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? Well, I prefer the Gaz era because of the quantity of material, its quality and the whole tone of the setting. I don't know about anyone else, but I was just floored when I read the Principalities of Glantri and saw all the amazing stuff they had come up with. And none of it is structured so as to prove restrictive to any campaign. Flexibility and creativity! The Gaz series breathed a whole new life into the meager collection of maps started in the X modules. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided >but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information >provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? What _wouldn't_ I like to see would be a shorter list! The Gazetteers redone definitely. I would like to see info on both pre and post Wrath and all sorts of general improvements so I guess c) would be my answer. I don't ask for much, do I? Oh yeah, more almanacs as long as they have quality material in them. >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? Someone else mentioned the whole idea of seeing more about Nithia and I think that's a fabulous idea. I know the Forgotten Realms did the whole "Arcane Age" thing and having something like that for Mystara would be great! Just think, a box set placed right around the time of the Alphatian landfall or some similar key point in history. Nithia would be great for a campaign showing the sinking of a powerful and glorious culture into decadence and evil (it would be pretty grim). And, hey, with the Immortal magic keeping Nithian knowledge contained (and of course the poor quality of the Hollow World Nithian source book), a good, solid treatment of this empire would be heartily welcomed. Their empire spanned a huge area so the setting need not be limited to a pseudo-Egyptian desert setting. They had colonies everywhere. And of course Blackmoor. A collection of the previous modules all re-done with new maps (Gaz style) and more background info would be spectacular. There has also been talk about campaign encyclopedias for the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance. I withhold judgement until seeing them, but something like this for Mystara may be interesting as well. Thank for the forum! Everyone's answers have been great! Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:32:55 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << I see your point here. In fact, I can see where having an organization of paladins would indeed destroy the uniqueness of them. I think that having an organization of Paladins would be unique in itself, and not necesserily take away from the uniqueness of the class. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:35:55 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals At 11:47 PM 2/24/98 +0000, you wrote: >When were immoprtals first introduced to Mystara? I know they weren't mentioned in module X1. Did Aaron invent them for the Hollow World? I'm curious where they originated and how they became the default pantheon for Mystara. Are there any gazetteers or significant supplements that ever mention *gods* in association with Mystara (other than generic stuff like the evil temple in B2)? Are there any gazetteers that don't mention either gods or immortals? My guess would be either the Companions set or the Masters set, leaning toward the CM. That box blurbs the paths of immortality (1 paragraph if that). I don't think any modules previous to that boxed set say anything specific about Immortals. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:42:32 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? the Post Wrath era at around 1013..... >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: The Gazetters re-done with Post-Wrath era information and Gazetters on ancient cultures....Blackmore, Nithia, things like that. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:45:25 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara At 03:27 AM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >There's been recent talk of an Online City detailing a Mystaran city and other posts saying Mystara is so rich in detail. I recently had a discussion with a few people who love the Reaklms because "there's just so much! More than any other world!" This really annoys me and I think many list members. What I think the list should DO (and not just bring it up occasionly, say yeah and just leave it alone) but actually come up with topics on Mystara and get people to work on them. Sort of a Great Net Project if you will. If we are going to keep this world alive let's make it better than any other, more detailed than any other, and more organized than any other. (I know it's already all of these) but let's really get a group of projects going. New supplements to those already made. I'm all for this! I volunteer to detail the Karamekian Order of the Griffon (since I've already started this anyway)! >Some examples: >1)Gazetters for areas not already described. Well, TSR did promise Gazetteers for Heldann, Sind, and Wendar...Denagoth could use one too, as well as most of the Hollow World nations. >2)The online city idea but more. (Each member could choose a village and dsetail it. A village wouldn't be that much work and the creativity!) Someone previously mentioned Threshold as a good starting point, since so many campaigns have started there. (Come on, EVERYONE's been to Threshold at some point in their gaming lives, right?) >3)Detailing militaries (Generals, Forts, Outposts, Training Routines, Daily Routines, Uniforms,etc.) These could be based on some ancient armies (Thyatis is so obviously Roman Legion material, and Darokin looks like Napoleonic times as far as military is concerned). >4)All of the NPCs people have ever made (I know this was brought up by someone already but let's compile a list). ALL of them? Eep. There may not be enough web space available on the entire Internet to detail ALL the NPCs in Mystara. I mean, there's fifty thousand people in Mirros alone, not to mention (shudder) Thyatis City. Anyone up to detailing half a million people? Just kidding. Honest. >5)The types of worship, devotion or whatever that clerics actually do for their Immortals Excellent idea; use the descriptions in WotI as a basis, build from there. >6)Foods and Drinks Hasn't this been done already? >7)Specific events that happen in the World Games. PWA #2 mentions the general events and cites two specific ones (a ten-mile horse race over rough terrain and weightlifting). Hmm...footraces would be obvious; I'd look to the accounts of the Ancient Olympic games for ideas for this. Terari might try to have Hard-Ball sanctioned as a game; the first Mystaran team sport! Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:47:23 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Slovak Names At 03:28 AM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >>How about some slavic names? >>I dont want to call all my NPC's Igor ;P >"Boy this Boy is kinda slow!" >Ja, I know but hey, better late than never! Slovak Names are really no differeny than Russian or Eastern German/Prussian Names. I have an Uncle named Mario and another named Milan, but there are is no Roman blood in my family! GAZ1 states clearly that Traladaran names are Eastern European in flavour, and lists several examples. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:00:10 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Materialism At 08:22 AM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I wonder, in Sind are cows sacred? what Mystaran nations are famous for their cows? Maybe we need a livestock gazeteer! >Not a bad idea. I wonder where Gorgons fit in...Minotaur...Enduks... Minotaurs, like cows, are left alone by the common people of Mystara. However, it has nothing to do with minotaurs being sacred, it has to do with one's personal health and well-being. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:05:38 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting << What were the rules for resting to heal damage? What do most people use? >> 8 hours of rest = 1hp - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:04:09 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) At 02:37 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >Thats a good thing. However the system does not exactly encourage this. If you don't have Humanoids Handbook, the rules are very vague at this point, unlike systems like RuneQuest and GURPS where monsters are treated like NPCs. GAZ10, Orcs of Thar. It not only deals with humanoids of various levels, it also discusses additions to character creation, dozens of subraces of humanoids, and even a path of Immortality tailored for humanoids, the Path of the Conqueror. It also includes the Orcwars game (originally presented in Dragon #132), and Thar's Manual of Good Conduct, a training manual for humanoids joining the Great Horde. Hilarious. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:06:36 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 02:56 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >>I see your point here. In fact, I can see where having an organization of paladins would indeed destroy the uniqueness of them. >And would it be realistic? In all of Mythic Britain there was probably only one man who could live up to such standards. (Lancelot) Galahad and Arthur himself are paladins, as is Sir Percival. But that's nearly it for the paladins of the Round Table. >Agreed. Others have posted examples of Immortals unlikely to have paladins. There would probably be paladins of Vanya, Al-Kalim, the Church of Karameikos, Tarastia, Karaash and Ixion though. (Just to name a few) Karaash? The patron of Orcs and other humanoids? Exactly where does a paladin fit into his scheme of things? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:14:09 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 10:25 AM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Bruce Heard: Princess Ark series, M1 (introducing Alphatia/Thyatis conflict), GAZ3 (Glantri), GAZ10 (Broken Lands) >Err..CM1 introduced the Alphatia-Thyatis-Norworld conflict originally, as it preceded M1. Also, M2 (Skip Williams) did a good job of furthering that whole concept. I also think Bruce did X2, simply because I always see him associated with Glantri products...X2 was perhaps the 2nd real Mystara module as well as the first Glantri one? Gack! Pardon my stupidity and sloppiness. CM1 it is. >>Jim Bambra: GAZ12 (Ethengar), PC3 (Undersea) >Also the co-author of B10, which expanded on Karameikos better than any other module I've seen. No argument from me. B10 is considered the best D&D adventure ever written by some people. At least, I've seen that written a few times. I can't remember where, though. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:22:53 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. At 01:01 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >Apostles. The paring to twelve may have come about the same time that inhuman abomination Galahad appeared. Inhuman abomination? Rather harsh, isn't it? Galahad was the purest knight of all, even moreso than his father, Lancelot. He was a paragon of virtue, and one of only three knights who could complete the Quest for the Holy Grail. Not quite an abomination, really. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #118 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:32:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #119 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Wednesday, February 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 119 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Names Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation (Was:[MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia) Re: [MYSTARA] - Free-form magic (was: Roleplay vs. "roleplay") (long) [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation (Was:[MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia) Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Avenger Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:12:20 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 22.02 24/02/98 -0500, Glen Sprigg wrote: >detailed role-playing setting of them all (notwithstanding some people's claims that the Realms are better; they don't even have a list of universities or the different monetary systems that Mystara boasts). There're different monetary systems in the Realms too... or at least this is what my DM told me when I played in FR. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:17:43 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 22.50 24/02/98 -0500, Glen Sprigg wrote: >Incidentally, I find it hard to believe that in the thousands of years since the Hollow World was first settled, no mages have learned any of those 'forgotten' spells. 95% of wizards of 9th level or higher know Fireball and Lightning Bolt. But of all the wizards that ever got transported to the HW, NONE of them remembers or even knew these spells?! Come on, let's get real. The only way this could happen is if the Immortals wiped the memory of all those 'forgotten' spells from all the name-level wizards' memories. Soall the Nithian wizards, the Azcan wizards, the Milenian wizards, the Icevale elves, the Antalian wizards, the Tanagoro wizards, etc. all lost these spells because of Immortal tampering. What about this. Maybe the "forgotten" spells listed in the HW boxed set are stil "forgotten" as of AC 1000. Maybe when the HW were created there where many more "forgotten" spells, but then the wizards learned some of them through extensive reasearch, except the ones listed in the HW boxed set. This is just an idea, I'm not a HW expert. PS: or maybe those spells were not known yet when those wizards were transported to the HW, though I find it unlikely. Maybe it as the Alphatian that introduced those spells in Mystara. Just another idea. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:21:07 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara At 20.21 24/02/98 -0800, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? >From 1000 AC on. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? Because of teh Gazetters. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided >but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information >provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? None of this, I would prefer: a) A yearly Almanac a la PWA b) New post-wrath Gazeteers for areas like Heldann, Hule, Herath, Hyborea, Helskir.. stop me :-) >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? No :-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:29:26 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision (long) At 10.36 25/02/98 +0200, Anias Pasi wrote: >Well, actually a refrigerator does not produce cold, actually it produces heat, just like all other macinery. But if one opens a refrigerator looks inside, it's cold for sure. True. I did notice that mistake myself. But maybe a magical refrigerator produces cold :-) >Think: >As you enter the dark library room you see a man sitting by a book, reading even without light. The man looks old, kind of sick, but the most disturbing quality of him is heat. He shows red in your godgiven infravision, red as a furnace. And his eye's turning from the book are hotter still. You step in, asking for Pardon, You wish not to disturb. The man smiles, showing a mouth even hotter than the eyes. The man raises and pleades You to enter. As you step toward him, and the extended hand, you suddenly feel cold. The feeling worsens as you reach to the hand offered to you. It's like all the heat is leaving your body, drained away. You hesitate just for a second, enough to give the man time to leap to You, and grap our shoulder. >Cold. You feel the hand darining your bodily heat, succing it away. It's like a touch from a grave, and worst. The mans breath feels warm in your cheek, but hes nearness drives the warmt away from Your wery soul. You feel Yourself dropping, hitting the floor hard, blacking out... Scaring... 8-| *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:27:18 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara At 03.27 25/02/98 -0500, brunciak@erols.com wrote: >3)Detailing militaries (Generals, Forts, Outposts, Training Rountines, Daily Routines, Uniforms,etc.) Good idea. >7)Specific events that happen in the World Games. PWA #2 mentions the general events and cites two specific ones (a ten-mile horse race over rough terrain and weightlifting). This is one of my projects. Unfortunately till now I've not find the time to do this. If someone starts working on it, please mail me and I would be more than happy to help. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:26:03 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Names At 07:51 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >Does anyone know : >1. the name of the governor in the Castles of the Borderlands in the 1000's (Karameikos) ? If you mean B2, he was just 'the Castellan'; he wasn't given a name. >2. the name of the Red Dragon in the Wyrms Teeth (Norwold) ? He (or she?) is mentioned in PWAII but has no "official" name... There are a few dragons in the Wyrmsteeth; which one do you mean? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:07:13 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 04:06 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 02:56 PM 2/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >>>I see your point here. In fact, I can see where having an organization of paladins would indeed destroy the uniqueness of them. >>And would it be realistic? In all of Mythic Britain there was probably only one man who could live up to such standards. (Lancelot) >Galahad and Arthur himself are paladins, as is Sir Percival. But that's nearly it for the paladins of the Round Table. I'd include Bevidr I think. >>Agreed. Others have posted examples of Immortals unlikely to have paladins. There would probably be paladins of Vanya, Al-Kalim, the Church of Karameikos, Tarastia, Karaash and Ixion though. (Just to name a few) >Karaash? The patron of Orcs and other humanoids? Exactly where does a paladin fit into his scheme of things? In other words he would certainly have a special band of fighters dedicated to him. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:14:11 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting At 18.32 25/02/98 GMT, you wrote: >What were the rules for resting to heal damage? What do most people use? 1 hp per night of rest. IMC we usually assume PC get up at 7:00, spend 1 hour for breakfast, prayer and study, march until sunset (about 10 hours), have dinner and then go to bed. During the night everyone is expected to be on watch for about 3 hours. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:29 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos << Certainly in Darokin or Vestland for example, paladins would indeed be rare. >> Or of a complete different style... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:47 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Shouldn't Avengers be penalized for doing good *within* the confines of the law? They really seem to be based on a sort of vigilante concept; an Avenger wants to take the law into his own hands, and would balk at letting anyone else do it. One reason might be that Avengers do not *trust* the law or those who serve it. This would be especially appropriate if the law has lots of loopholes and criminals often avoid justice (as happens here in the USA). Maybe he does not trust anyone else, or maybe he wants the glory of the kill, or maybe he is just too impatient to wait for due process. Whatever the reason, an Avenger should greatly resist using lawful means. In fact he should face nearly the same dilemma as a paladin, only in reverse. Life should be tough for *both*. This leads to an interesting question: can a paladin who becomes disillusioned with the law turn into an avenger? Or perhaps an avenger who comes to see the purpose and goodness of law might become a paladin! This could make for a great campaign... imagine a paladin who loses faith in the law, becomes an avenger, and then (in the end) becomes reconciled and returns to lawful paladin-hood? >> The life can be hard for an avenger too. Imagine that he got an mission by his patron or his church and it in conflict with own goals. If he does follow his orders they will strip him down to a normal fighter and he has to seek another church/immortal. Don't forget, an avenger is a mercenary. He is paid with his abilities and he must earn them. Additionally, most people think "evil" when thinking about avengers. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:50 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D << D&D is the original system; it has been mostly the same since 1974, with some revisions in the following years. But AD&D was printed in 1979. Gary Gygax himself said that AD&D rules "comprise a _different_ game...It is neither an expansion nor a revision of the old game: IT IS A NEW GAME." (Best of Dragon Vol. 2, pg. 39, reprinted from Dragon #26, June 1979) It don't get much clearer than that, folks. The man has spoken. Glen Hm, you don't know the original D&D rules? If yes, I don't believe that you would state this. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:16:24 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? I prefer the era after the WotI. It's a fresh start for making changes I'd like to see and not likely to conflict with any future products since there aren't any. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? It's a good place to start because it essentially has freed Thyatis and the rest of the world from the Cold War like stance it had been in. Also, any changes I make don't conflict with future products since there aren't any. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided >but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information >provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? b) definitely. Though I'd prefer a book or box set that details the whole setting in general terms first. >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? I'd like to see the creation and era before Blackmoor detailed. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:21:24 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >I agree. As I said in my response to Galwylin, not all Immortals would have Paladins. I dont like the way pacifists are treated in Fantasy worlds. Would it not be possible for a warrior to believe in peace. And in solving conflicts peacefully? They could be peacekeeping forces. (like the UN? ;P ) Well, maybe not a UN since the real thing seems to get castrated everytime it looks like it would be useful but I think a warrior of peace is interesting provided you get past the contradiction of a warrior of peace ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:58:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, stan wrote: >I always thought I knew where giants and giant-kin evolved from but now I'm not so sure. It always seemed _obvious_ that they had evolved from the Beastmen and were merely what came out from the taller Beastmen. But looking at the height table for Beastmen in the Hollow World players guide Beastmen range from about 3 to 8 feet. Thereby not in the 12 to 20 foot range that giants and giant-kin fit into. It's never been explicitly stated (actually, I seem to recall something about them coming from the Beastmen). There have been two really good proposals here on the list on the subject, though. 1) They evolved from the Garls, who seem to be an offshoot of the evolutionary branch that humans developed from- similar to the Neanderthals, but larger and more brutish. For a RW comparison, I'd say they're something akin to the Australopithicus. 2) They evolved from Elemental drakes that were stuck on Mystara. As you may recall, the Elemental Drakes can take the forms of giants. Someone proposed this for the origin of the "elemental" giants- the Frost, Fire, Air, and Stone giants. Either or both of these sound like logical theories to me. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:01:17 -0500 From: deg121@psu.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Daly wrote: >At 10:25 AM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>Bruce Heard: Princess Ark series, M1 (introducing Alphatia/Thyatis conflict), GAZ3 (Glantri), GAZ10 (Broken Lands) >>Err..CM1 introduced the Alphatia-Thyatis-Norworld conflict originally, as it preceded M1. Also, M2 (Skip Williams) did a good job of furthering that whole concept. I also think Bruce did X2, simply because I always see him associated with Glantri products...X2 was perhaps the 2nd real Mystara module as well as the first Glantri one? >Good comments. But wasn't X2 done by David Cook? X2 - Castle Amber right? If so it was done by Tim (Tom?) Moldvay. Dan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:03:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One meandered eldritchly... >>Just off the top of my head, The Temple of Elemental Evil might be workable. For some reason I picture it as being placed in the Wendar/Denagoth region, with the Immortal Idris being substituted for Iggwilv (she's the one trapped in the Temple, right?). >Ac tually it's Zuggtmoy, Demon Queen of Fungus. I knew it was one of those two. I always get them confused- I just recall them as being the two evil women/demons/witches that are associated with Iuz the Evil. :) >>One of these days, whenever I get a chance, I will run >House of Strahd (i.e. The original Ravenloft, though updated). in Mystara, placing it it Karameikos, renaming the castle Koriszegy Keep... >Seems like such a natural fit. I recall you mentioning that one. Another possible one might be (and this would require a *lot* of reworking) to use the Dragonlance modules on Mystara, either using them in the past (most likely) to sort of parallel the dragon wars that were used as the backdrop of the Dragonlord of Mystara series (replacing the Chromatic dragons with rogue dragons and gemstone dragons). The other one that I thought of the other day was somehow using the Hand of Vecna, but I'm not entirely sure what the adjustments might be. Change the Circle of Eight to the Princes/Princesses of Glantri and make Vecna some sort of Immortal (Thanatos, maybe?). Not recommended unless you *really* want to shake up Glantri politics more than they normally are. :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:10:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation (Was:[MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >To me, the spell will eventually become a Spell of Stagnation because no people of the Hollow World are allowed to go beyond certain lengths. How does this affect population growth if a culture reaches the point where it needs to expand its lands? Cultures are not prevented from expanding their boundaries, as evidenced by such nations as Nithia and the Azcan Empire, both of which are constantly expanding their territories. What this means is that they come into contact with other cultures, and are forced to attempt to assimilate them (which only ever happens on an individual basis- PCs- and not as an entire culture) or destroy them. Which is where the SoP comes in. What this does is prevent cultures from ever being completely destroyed by outsiders or internal struggles. They can lose all the ground possible, but they will never be completely destroyed. >Is the Hollow World treated as an unchanging museum by the Immortals where they can see a living example of that culture in a certain time period forever? Basically yes. That is the goal of the Hollow World project after all. What this means for the people living in the Hollow World is that they, far moreso than the Outer World denizens, are forced to eternally struggle and play to the whims of the Immortals. As mentioned before, they can undergo any sort of catastrophes short of utter destruction of the culture. The HWA series of adventures (Nightrage, Nighthowl, Nightstorm) make this point abundantly clear- notably through the city-state of Colima. This place is almost always on the point of utter destruction, it's inhabitants living a precarious existence between dinosaur, Merry Pirate, and Azcan attacks, but it can never be completely destroyed. The people live a miserable life, but are eternally stuck due to the effects of the SoP. The modules also make this point clear in a number of other areas, and give the PCs a chance to attempt to right these Immortal wrongs at the very end of it. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:13:23 EST From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Free-form magic (was: Roleplay vs. "roleplay") (long) In a message dated 98-02-24 21:00:38 EST, you write: << I've been busy considering running an Immortal-level campaign for a while, but being unsatisfied by the magic system (deity-level beings should be able to accomplish far more than mimicking human spells), I considered adapting a free-form magic system. Fifth Age has a rather good one, but needs the use of cards to use it. I wanted something a little more consistant with the D&D or at least AD&D systems. I considered using the Mage: the Ascension magick system which is IMHO one of the best magick systems there is and would with a little tweaking suit deity-level magic. Unfortunately, this system makes heavy use of the d10/success or failure system. Perhaps the GURPS system does it differently? I'd be interested to know the differences in the system. Has anyone worked out a good free-form magic system? Please let me know.... >> I am facing this dilemma on and off right now myself, having one character who managed to obtain immortality at the end of an old D&D campaign. My new group is playing an AD&D one and I have allowed the old player to "dust off" his old character and use a mortal identity (a cleric) to go forth with the new group and spread the following of himself. Although it hasn't come up yet, I am eventually going to have to deal with immortal level spell casting. The system I have been considering adapting and using is the true dweomer rules from the High Level Campaigns DM's Options. I think it would provide an acceptable open-ended spell crafting style for immortals. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:19:25 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation (Was:[MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >At 07:15 PM 2/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Is the Hollow World treated as an unchanging museum by the Immortals where they can see a living example of that culture in a certain time period forever? >Well not exactly. I just reread the description of the spell and it says that certain changes are possible if a given aspect was already present in a culture. For instance the Azcans of the surface practiced ritual sacrifice every now and then but they increased the practice considerably once they landed in the HW. Which raises a point I mentioned once before (though I don't entirely recall the reaction it got- mixed, I think). The Gentle Folk, prior to their "departure" to the Hollow World, had undergone a ritual of forgiveness by Alphatia, that would (theoretically) have led them out of their depression in time. That element, newly introduced though it may have been, should still be present to some extent within the Gentle Folk culture. All it needs is a spark to fan it. Just a thought for anyone who might be interested in doing a writeup on the Gentle Folk. To introduce a "fringe" element of the people who are trying to motivate the rest of them out of their lethargy, who bring Alphatia's teachings to them, etc. (Heck, at this point, maybe I'll do something with it...) It could be interesting to see them go through cycles- from lethargy to activity, and back again, over the course of the centuries, with both elements remaining- in whatever quantity- within the culture. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:24:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >Here's an idea for a Blackmoor-era adventure: S3, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. Anyone want to explore the Beagle? Already done that- in module DA3: City of the Gods. S3 might make a good followup adventure, though, or it could be run as the very first expedition to the City of the Gods (the one undertaken by the Fetch and his men 5 years prior to module DA1)- we are playing with time travel, after all. :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:25 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avenger << Not in my opinion and illustrates one of the best disadvantages of paladins. They have to balance the duties of law and of good. Which makes it very easy to fail since they are reaching for a state that is not naturally occuring. The idea that law if not good is foriegn to them. They are slow to act when having to choose between following the law and doing good. Even if they wait too long to act, they've allowed evil to happen so they lose their ability. Acting against good (not personal percieved good) loses their ability and acting against the law strips them of their honor which will usually lead them to going against their own percieved good and thus losing their abilities even if only in their mind. That's one thing that makes them heroic and for their tales to last so long. >> And then are people wondering why I don't like AD&D paladins... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:29:21 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >You know, DA3 The City of the gods, which detailed the Beagle, always struck me as being very reminiscent of S3. I often wondered if, just as Temple of the Frog was adapted, perhaps S3 was totally rewritten to fit the campaign. Perhaps the total rewrite was necessary because S3 is a well known module and very few people are aware of the original Temple of the Frog. >For those who don't know, the temple was detailed in the long lost rulebook: Blackmoor. It is not-quite identical to the adventure presented in DA2. Which Blackmoor rulebook is that? I have the Judge's Guild Blackmoor supplement, and there is nothing on the Temple of the Frog in that. Was there another Blackmoor supplement? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #119 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, February 26 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 120 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation (Was:[MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia) Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Shadow Elf Shamans Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead (was: Random Thoughts) Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation (Was:[MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia) [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara [MYSTARA] - Troll Bucket Explained Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara [MYSTARA] - Period of Preference ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:36:04 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? I mostly played (when having a regular campaign) in the immediate Gazetteer/pre-Wrath time. I was on the verge of working into the Wrath era when my main campaign group split up. Truth to tell, I love all the time periods of Mystara about equally. :) I've got a special soft spot for the c.4000 BC era of Blackmoor, though- the time of the DA series of modules. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? I don't really know. I think a big part of it is that those modules are so rich and full of great campaign information. In just a few modules, so many nations, NPCs, politics and skulduggeries are revealed and hinted at that it just makes it so ripe for roleplaying and expanding upon. Don't get me wrong, I love all the other eras and all the work done on modern Mystara, but there is just something about that Blackmoor time that really gets me... >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: cc) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information pprovided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? Something in this format. The bulk, I think, should be Post-Wrath info, but obviously you're going to need to lay down a lot of pre-wrath info, particularly as regards the histories of these nations. >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? Just that I really like the Blackmoor era. And am working on a project related to that era with Geoff Gander that will hopefully see the light of day before the end of the year. :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:39:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - First appearance of Immortals On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Mike Harvey wrote: >When were immoprtals first introduced to Mystara? I know they weren't mentioned in module X1. Did Aaron invent them for the Hollow World? I'm curious where they originated and how they became the default pantheon for Mystara. Are there any gazetteers or significant supplements that ever mention *gods* in association with Mystara (other than generic stuff like the evil temple in B2)? Are there any gazetteers that don't mention either gods or immortals? I think the first mention of them that was made was in the Companions Set, which alluded to the fact that Master level characters would be able to set their sights on attaining Immortality. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:46:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Mischa E Gelman wrote: >I also think Bruce did X2, simply because I always see him associated with Glantri products...X2 was perhaps the 2nd real Mystara module as well as the first Glantri one? IIRC, it was done by Dave Cook. It wasn't by Bruce, though he sure picked up on the theme later in his works- to be expected, though, he was born in France, IIRC. :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:47:56 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation (Was:[MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia) At 05:10 PM 2/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>To me, the spell will eventually become a Spell of Stagnation because no people of the Hollow World are allowed to go beyond certain lengths. How does this affect population growth if a culture reaches the point where it needs to expand its lands? >Cultures are not prevented from expanding their boundaries, as evidenced by such nations as Nithia and the Azcan Empire, both of which are constantly expanding their territories. >What this means is that they come into contact with other cultures, and are forced to attempt to assimilate them (which only ever happens on an individual basis- PCs- and not as an entire culture) or destroy them. >Which is where the SoP comes in. What this does is prevent cultures from ever being completely destroyed by outsiders or internal struggles. They can lose all the ground possible, but they will never be completely destroyed. >>Is the Hollow World treated as an unchanging museum by the Immortals where they can see a living example of that culture in a certain time period forever? >Basically yes. That is the goal of the Hollow World project after all. >What this means for the people living in the Hollow World is that they, far moreso than the Outer World denizens, are forced to eternally struggle and play to the whims of the Immortals. As mentioned before, they can undergo any sort of catastrophes short of utter destruction of the culture. >The HWA series of adventures (Nightrage, Nighthowl, Nightstorm) make this point abundantly clear- notably through the city-state of Colima. This place is almost always on the point of utter destruction, it's inhabitants living a precarious existence between dinosaur, Merry Pirate, and Azcan attacks, but it can never be completely destroyed. The people live a miserable life, but are eternally stuck due to the effects of the SoP. The modules also make this point clear in a number of other areas, and give the PCs a chance to attempt to right these Immortal wrongs at the very end of it. Ok so by my way of thinking if culture A completely anihilates culture B then culture A would start behaving like culture B right? At least in that particular geographical location? Forgive me I am an ooolllldddd Mystaran but relatively new Hollow World-ian *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:44 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? << Tom Moldvay wrote X1 and invented the Known World. David Cook wrote X4 and X5 inventing the Sind desert, Pramayama, and Hule. >> Yeah, Pramayama! Older than the capital, older than the nation... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:46 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Shadow Elf Shamans << > Here is one that has always confused me. In the Shadowelves Gazetteer the >Shaman are always referred to with feminine pronouns. Yet nowhere does it state that only female Shadowelves can be Shaman. So was this just a sad attempt to be politically correct at the expense of clarity? >> The ugly faces of the drow lurked around the corner... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:52 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << no flames...i'll just explain it better. It's not AD&D....i'm talking about granted powers that priests get from thier Immortals... Certain ones give thier priests infravision....cause light wounds as a bonus spell....things like that. i said instead of haveing the normal Paladin abilities....maybe they would instead get the same abilities that thier deity give the priests of the same faith. >> Thanks! That's the way we do it in our campaign. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:34 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead (was: Random Thoughts) << You maybe forget one thing, Alex: infravision only works in absence of light. And since the undead don't leave any infrared trace, demihumans cannot spot them: they simply don't exist for infravision. This means it is not a boon, rather it's a bane (and i've always used it this way). Infravision cannot be used to detect invisible creatures nor creatures whose body temperature is equal to temperature of the surrounding space. Likewise, undead, who do not emanate heat, are invisible to infravision unless they block a obvious (visible) source of heat (say they pass in front of a candlelight or an oven). >> This is not was the basic rules tell about infravision... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:28:45 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << I know some people have expressed a dislike for Kits, and that is their right ofcourse. I do like the idea of Kits and prefer to keep the number of classes fairly low. Especially the ones which don't really fit into any culture. Ie, Paladins and Druids. >> I dislike the kits, too. But it's not the idea of the kits, but the way this idea is realized. I'm not promoting more classes, as I want to keep the rules as simple as possible. IMO there is no need to make things more difficult and to create more tables. The rules as they are, with the skills, is flexible enough to fulfill the requirements. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:56:43 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara At 05:29 PM 2/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>You know, DA3 The City of the gods, which detailed the Beagle, always struck me as being very reminiscent of S3. I often wondered if, just as Temple of the Frog was adapted, perhaps S3 was totally rewritten to fit the campaign. Perhaps the total rewrite was necessary because S3 is a well known module and very few people are aware of the original Temple of the Frog. >>For those who don't know, the temple was detailed in the long lost rulebook: Blackmoor. It is not-quite identical to the adventure presented in DA2. >Which Blackmoor rulebook is that? I have the Judge's Guild Blackmoor supplement, and there is nothing on the Temple of the Frog in that. Was there another Blackmoor supplement? I mean the original D&D Supplement II "Blackmoor" by Dave Arneson, published by TSR Rules. The copy I have access to is from a 1979 printing. It was part of a series. Another component was titled "Eldritch Wizardry". Ring any bells yet? You would be amazed, my friend, at the similarity between the two adventures...or maybe not considering that it is the same adventure. One was merely rewritten to fit a campaign setting. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:57:47 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >Ok so by my way of thinking if culture A completely anihilates culture B then culture A would start behaving like culture B right? At least in that particular geographical location? Not quite. For one thing, culture A could never completely annihilate culture B; some remnant of culture B would always survive, somehow (culture A quits the field, culture B relocates, etc.) Culture A might try to assimilate culture B, but they would be unsuccessful. Culture B might pay lip service to culture A's ways and traditions, but they would always maintain their own ways, if only in the privacy of their homes. Quite simply, assimilation isn't possible in the Hollow World. King Dogrel of Alphatian-Neatharum has been finding this out recently, and PWA1010 in particular gives some insights into the phenomenon. Most of the expansionistic cultures in the Hollow World realize that this phenomenon exists, and so don't bother with assimilation. They tend to either take slaves (not trying to impose their ways on them) or destroy the enemy outright. It's a very complicated (and not well explained) system of checks and balances, laid out by the Immortals. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 05:57 PM 2/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>Ok so by my way of thinking if culture A completely anihilates culture B then culture A would start behaving like culture B right? At least in that particular geographical location? >Not quite. For one thing, culture A could never completely annihilate culture B; some remnant of culture B would always survive, somehow (culture A quits the field, culture B relocates, etc.) >Culture A might try to assimilate culture B, but they would be unsuccessful. Culture B might pay lip service to culture A's ways and traditions, but they would always maintain their own ways, if only in the privacy of their homes. Quite simply, assimilation isn't possible in the Hollow World. King Dogrel of Alphatian-Neatharum has been finding this out recently, and PWA1010 in particular gives some insights into the phenomenon. >Most of the expansionistic cultures in the Hollow World realize that this phenomenon exists, and so don't bother with assimilation. They tend to either take slaves (not trying to impose their ways on them) or destroy the enemy outright. >It's a very complicated (and not well explained) system of checks and balances, laid out by the Immortals. Ah, so if the Alphatians wished to take advantage of such a system they could war on the surface world without fear of ever being defeated (not that they would, or that they have ever feared being defeated!) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:35:39 -0500 From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >Hey Mystaran's: >Just a quick "I was wondering..." set of questions: >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? I think I would have to say during Wrath of the Immortals, although my campaign (which started pre-Wrath) is now post-Wrath. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? I love epic world-spanning campaigns. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: aa) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided bbut also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information pprovided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? C is best, I think. Any supplements with Post-Wrath information would have to have some Pre-Wrath information as well, anyway, if only for the history sections. >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? The Blackmoor era is a favourite for one of the groups in my campaign (I have to games running at the moment, but they are considered to be in the same campaign, just different characters in different locations--one group on the Outer World, the other in the Hollow World, but I digress). One of the PC's in this group is a gnome from Serraine who is a Blackmoor scholar. He spends large amounts of time digging up every bit of Blackmoor information he can get his hands on. The player absolutely loved it when I ran DA1, as it meant her character finally got a chance to see Blackmoor firsthand. He ended up spending most of the adventure just talking to people about their lives. I finally got a hold of a copy of DA2 today, which completes my set, so I think it's about time I ran the other three adventures. Michael. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:58:44 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation >>Ok so by my way of thinking if culture A completely anihilates culture B then culture A would start behaving like culture B right? At least in that particular geographical location? >It's a very complicated (and not well explained) system of checks and balances, laid out by the Immortals. Another very important fact to consider is the massive distance and Geographical obstacles between the major powers in the Hollow World. Nithia and Milenia, who are enimies, are over 1400 miles apart. The Azcans would have to invade the Schattenalfen Caves. The Schattenalfen have to deal with the Sun. Any of the nothern nations would have to cross the World Spine to invade any of the Southern Nations. Not only is the SoP in effect but also the logistics make assimulation near impossible. My PC's escaped to the south from the Schattenalfen and spent the next MONTH and a half walking just to find the next farming villiage. Steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:31:17 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara At 05:03 PM 2/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >The other one that I thought of the other day was somehow using the Hand of Vecna, but I'm not entirely sure what the adjustments might be. Change the Circle of Eight to the Princes/Princesses of Glantri and make Vecna some sort of Immortal (Thanatos, maybe?). Not recommended unless you *really* want to shake up Glantri politics more than they normally are. :) Hand of Vecna?! Not to mention you'd be wiping out the ruling class of Glantri! Talk about drastic action; even Synn hasn't done that much. I don't know about making Vecna into Thanatos, however. What about using Brannart? He would seem to fit pretty closely, wouldn't he? After all, he's already a lich. Even better, what about Halzunthram, the Alphatian wizard who had tried to take over Glantri a long time ago? He could have faked his death and become a lich. Then he comes back, and he's really, really, pissed... Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:36:53 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation (Was:[MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia) At 07:47 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >Ok so by my way of thinking if culture A completely anihilates culture B then culture A would start behaving like culture B right? At least in that particular geographical location? No. Culture A cannot completely annihilate culture B, or culture C, or culture D through Z. The Immortals will not allow it. In the Blood Brethren trilogy, the PCs come across a tribe of manscorpions. The DM has the option of deciding that they are the only manscorpions left in the Hollow World. Therefore, if the PCs try to kill them, at least two will suddenly be teleported out in smoke and flame, and relocated somewhere where they can continue the culture. The Immortals WILL NOT PERMIT any culture to be wiped out no matter how hard someone tries. >Forgive me I am an ooolllldddd Mystaran but relatively new Hollow World-ian S'okay, we all have to grow up sometime :-) Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:31:47 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Well, I'm kinda new to the Hollow World myself with only the box set and the three resource suppliments in my library but one question that occurred to me is, where's Blackmoor? The Known World is my favorite place for adventuring but many seem to like Blackmoor and it seems like the Hollow World would be a safe place to keep it alive and available for adventure. Is it too late for the Immortals to place it in the Hollow World? If they can resurrect Alphatia _after_ it's sinking then Blackmoor shouldn't be too much problem. If it's not there, why not make a net.project placing it? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:35:00 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin I must say I'm very pleased to see this list really bubbling over with ideas and comments. While I've got Blackmoor on my mind (though not much knowledge but that never kept anyone quiet ;), are the giants and giant-kin a young enough race to have been affected (radiation mutation) by the Blackmoor explosion? Perhaps originally human or beastman (or elves, etc) that were seriously affected by the Great Rain of Fire. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:43:19 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales It's me again with another suggestion I'd like to see. Fiction set in Mystara is seriously lacking. Has anyone wrote stories set in Mystara? I've a few ideas of spots in Mystara's history and current events (in my mind) that I'm working on. I was wondering how these would be recieved by the list. I personally would like to see some Mystarian fiction. I know one thing that I like to use when designing adventures are ideas from stories that I can use as a legend of sorts. And it gives us another creative outlet and I'm of the mind that creative outlets are always in short supply. Thoughts, ideas, stories? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:53:36 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara I wish I could contribute to this thread better but I usually butcher published adventures so much that you probably couldn't see why I bothered to use it. If any of you have the Ravenloft adventure Ship of Horror, I think it converts very easily into a Mystara adventure. Just remove the parts that deal with Ravenloft and its a good haunted ship story. I'm also looking to see about using Ruins of Adventure (a FR adventure) which is basically the PCs helping rebuild a ruined city. Most Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms adventures translate easily and Ravenloft do if you want to add a horror aspect. Dark Sun is one I don't even attempt. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:56:47 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Troll Bucket Explained Glen Sprigg wrote: >This isn't really germane to the thread of the post, but what exactly is a 'troll bucket'? I understand 'flame wars' well enough, but this one has escaped me. Well, trolling is saying things that spark a flame of some sort. I was liking a troll bucket to a water bucket in which we all have a share (if we want) and I thought he was taking more than was fair ;> - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:21:46 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Glen Sprigg meandered fecklessly... >>One of these days, whenever I get a chance, I will run House of Strahd (i.e. The original Ravenloft, though updated). in Mystara, placing it it Karameikos, renaming the castle Koriszegy Keep... >>Seems like such a natural fit. >Oh, and I'm sure the Karamekians will thank you so profusely for the honor >of hosting Strahd... Hmmm, though I may be misreading your post, I just want ot clarify that the vampire would also be renamed,(i.e. Baron Koriszegy). I would simply use the module as a framework for a foray into Koriszegy Keep. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:32:21 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Period of Preference Jenni A. M. Merrifield meandered fecklessly... >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. >around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time >period all together? I defintely prefer the "Gazetteer Era" of Mystara. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? The Gazetteers (well, most of them) and other related material present a rich, fascinating fantasy world, one upon which surface my previous campaigns have only scratched. There are virtually endless possibilities to explore. I think it will be quite awhile before I feel a need to move on. And when I do it will be very unlikely that I will do so with the Wrath of the Immortals. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided bbut also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? If TSR ever plans on bringing Mystara back, I feel this is the way to do it, not just because it is the period I prefer. Rather, if they do a post-Wrath setting many newcomers will be somewhat lost. I think everyone should have a chance to explore the wonders of an Elven (non-Shadow) Alfheim, or enjoy a bit of Thyatis- Alphatian rivalry. What fun would it be to get into a setting and see they already ran the villian out of town? (i.e. the Blackeagle Barony). Reading about all the fun stuff that already happened is no fun at all. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #120 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, February 26 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 121 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Blackmoor (was:- What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara) Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin Re: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead Re: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation [MYSTARA] - Ranks within Heldannic Knights [MYSTARA] - Drakes everywhere Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Names ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:52:17 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-25 21:39:21 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: >Hm, you don't know the original D&D rules? If yes, I don't bbelieve that you would state this. I am familiar with the very original D&D rules, AD&D (1st and 2nd editions), and D&D (Basic/Expert/etc. and Rules Cyclopedia). The original D&D rules seemed to have more in common with the 1st edition AD&D rules than with any later set of D&D rules -- check the classes and level limits, for example. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:36:35 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >The other one that I thought of the other day was somehow using the Hand of Vecna, but I'm not entirely sure what the adjustments might be. Change the Circle of Eight to the Princes/Princesses of Glantri and make Vecna some sort of Immortal (Thanatos, maybe?). Not recommended unless you *really* want to shake up Glantri politics more than they normally are. :) Hmmm, Hand of Brannart, perhaps? ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:51:04 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >Even better, what about Halzunthram, the Alphatian wizard who had tried to take over Glantri a long time ago? He could have faked his death and become a lich. Then he comes back, and he's really, really, pissed... Interesting thought. In Mark of Amber adventure, Halzunthram is reincarnated into a rakshasa (Hazelthorn), though no mention is made of whether he is aware of his "earlier self". In the adventure, he acts as the enemy of Etienne (so he might even ally with Brannart, who certainly wouldn't like Etienne to come back). ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:56:45 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >>And would it be realistic? In all of Mythic Britain there was probably only one man who could live up to such standards. (Lancelot) >Galahad and Arthur himself are paladins, as is Sir Percival. But that's nearly it for the paladins of the Round Table. Possibly. Depends on which sources you use, though. >>Agreed. Others have posted examples of Immortals unlikely to have paladins. There would probably be paladins of Vanya, Al-Kalim, the Church of Karameikos, Tarastia, Karaash and Ixion though. (Just to name a few) >Karaash? The patron of Orcs and other humanoids? Exactly where does a paladin fit into his scheme of things? Karaash is the ideal Orc Warrior. I am speaking of modifications of the class though. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:19:01 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Blackmoor (was:- What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara) On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Just that I really like the Blackmoor era. And am working on a project related to that era with Geoff Gander that will hopefully see the light of day before the end of the year. :) I'm really looking forward to this. Will this be in line with the Mystaros timeline? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:28:04 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >There have been two really good proposals here on the list on the subject, though. >1) They evolved from the Garls, who seem to be an offshoot of the evolutionary branch that humans developed from- similar to the Neanderthals, but larger and more brutish. For a RW comparison, I'd say they're something akin to the Australopithicus. >2) They evolved from Elemental drakes that were stuck on Mystara. As you may recall, the Elemental Drakes can take the forms of giants. Someone proposed this for the origin of the "elemental" giants- the Frost, Fire, Air, and Stone giants. My current theory is that they are descendants of the Great Giants, mentioned in the Northern Reaches Gaz, who in turn are descendants of the Jotun, an ancient race of Immortal Creatures. They were also involved in the creation of the Humanoids. I'm speculationg that the Beastmen are the result of a bet made between Utgards-Loki, the Jotun and Hel, where Hel unfortunately lost. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >It's me again with another suggestion I'd like to see. >Fiction set in Mystara is seriously lacking. Has anyone wrote stories set in Mystara? I've a few ideas of spots in Mystara's history and current events (in my mind) that I'm working on. I was wondering how these would be recieved by the list. I personally would like to see some Mystarian fiction. I know one thing that I like to use when designing adventures are ideas from stories that I can use as a legend of sorts. And it gives us another creative outlet and I'm of the mind that creative outlets are always in short supply. Thoughts, ideas, stories? Yup, yup, yup! There are only a couple of fiction pieces I've seen while skimming through peoples web pages, one called Arrival in Mirros and there's one I think taken from a module? I'd definetly like to see more fiction, although my players have writen the odd story about adventures and background, they're all campaign specific (ie, you might not have the Beggars Court in Glantri burned to the ground etc.) so what I'd like to see (and am planning to do myself, I will get time eventually!) are stories about specific events in Mystara's history. One of the best things about Mystara is the sheer scope of it's history, and a story or two about the Spike assualt on Thyatis, or Stefan coming to Traladara, or something during Wrath of the Immortals, would be cool. I've already written one story which is supposed to be a fairy tale as told by a Darokian story-teller. (I'm gonna use the excuse that I was trying to make it like a Hans Christian Anderson story to excuse any crapness in it :) ) Eventually I was planning on having a whole series of stories as told by the people of Mystara themselves. The on I did (http:seija.ucd.ie/dnd/glantri/prospero/) is about Prince Morphails father in the early days of Boldavia. I was next gonna do one about Balthac and so on. Basically I think it would be nice to have a couple of legends and stuff that PC's could read about... gordon (Also check out Shawns page http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/stories.html for other stories.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:44:23 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Hi Jenni. >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? I prefer the3 Gaz era. Mainly because of the amount of information in the Gazs, and because I dont have to deal too much with the ever changing future timeline, yet. My campaign will eventually move to a Post Wrath era though. Possibly with a few modifications. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? See above. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information pprovided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? I've been thinking about a Boxed set called "Thyatis and the Known World" forcusing on Thyatis, but with quite a good introduction its neighbouring nations. Artwork by Larry Elmore or Brom. Postersized maps, heavy weight of "feel" and culture. >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? I think all eras of Mystara are fascinating. Blackmoor and Nithia. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:58:18 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Detailing Mystara Hi Bob. On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 brunciak@erols.com wrote: >1)Gazetters for areas not already described. I'd like to see more of that. Wendar is one of the areas that I am particularily interested in. I'm also working on a Kentaur Culture in the lands west of Glantri. >2)The online city idea but more. (Each member could choose a village and dsetail it. A village wouldn't be that much work and the creativity!) Sounds interesting. My campaign is currently set near the village of Stallandsford. It is north of Penhaligion, but not mentioned anywhere except in Kings Festival and Queens Harvest. I might put some of that info on my homepage soon. >3)Detailing militaries (Generals, Forts, Outposts, Training Rountines, Daily Routines, Uniforms,etc.) Not my cup of tea, but I'd love to see someone work it out. >4)All of the NPCs people have ever made (I know this was brought up by someone already but let's compile a list). I'd like to point out here, that personalities and background stories are a lot more interesting that statistics and special abilities. >5)The types of worship, devotion or whatever that clerics actually do for their Immortals I am working on a major project concerning the Church of Thyatis, these days. It is mainly concerned with what mortals belive, and will thus probably be in "conflict" with Wrath of the Immortals. Ixion, Protius and Khoronus are considered to be brothers. Any ideas are welcome. >6)Foods and Drinks I'd love to see more on this. Perhaps one article per nation? >7)Specific events that happen in the World Games. PWA #2 mentions the general events and cites two specific ones (a ten-mile horse race over rough terrain and weightlifting). >8) Anything else! go for it! someone? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:49:21 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) At 12:09 21-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >>>little people. Where exactly does any canon material present this point of >>>view of the hin? I've got nearly everything dealing with Mystara, but that >>They were able to throw out the orcs and they're not borderline psycho? I'll admit that my copy of the Shires Gazetteer is in a box, somewhere, but still... >Hey! We Americans kicked the Brits out and we weren't psycho! Is that statement up for discussion? ;-) Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:05:03 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Another suggestion: I converted the Lendor-Series (two modules) into Mystara and put the described landscape onto Gapton in the Minrothad Guilds. It is about a quarrel of two nearly independant cities (their rulers) and one tries to murder the other with an assassin guild member. IMC it developed further and the people got upset and went into rebellion. The PC helping the people were rewarded by becoming the NEW leaders. This aroused Oran Meditor because no further taxes, goods, ... came from Gapton island and an ultimatum was delivered to surrender the island once again to the Guilds. And then the "real" story began. Back to start the two modules describe the two villages, their surroundings and the townsfolk in a sufficient way. With minor corrections it fits into nearly every landscape and with alittle work it is good for deep real roleplaying because interaction and understanding of the motives of the NPC is by all means the only way to survive (if the DM plays the NPC correct). Normally it is a low-level campaign but if you modify the Name-NPC and substitute some monsters it is challenging for every level. Just think of the articles in Dragon (196/222). "Want real danger - try politics" and "Who needs hitpoints - if you have credit". Wizzard real adventure *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:11:28 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead << This is not was the basic rules tell about infravision... >> well, what did the basic rules tell? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:22:11 EST From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales << Has anyone wrote stories set in Mystara? >> I wrote a story called "The Lost Soldier" and I've come up with a few short stories, but most of them are on original work and nothing canon. Certain aspects of my Mystara are drastically different then the norm, but i'm sure that goes for a bunch of people on the list. Anyways, they've been based in the past for the most part (about 80 years back), and some have to do with why and how the continents got thier names.....Different heroes....lost races......things like that. I still have a few more pages to write to finish "the lost soldier", but either way...it's probably too long to post on the list. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:44:36 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 09:31 PM 2/25/98 -0600, you wrote: >Well, I'm kinda new to the Hollow World myself with only the box set and the three resource suppliments in my library but one question that occurred to me is, where's Blackmoor? The Known World is my favorite place for adventuring but many seem to like Blackmoor and it seems like the Hollow World would be a safe place to keep it alive and available for adventure. Is it too late for the Immortals to place it in the Hollow World? If they can resurrect Alphatia _after_ it's sinking then Blackmoor shouldn't be too much problem. If it's not there, why not make a net.project placing it? Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:59:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Morrow Subject: [MYSTARA] - Ranks within Heldannic Knights The Heldannic Knights, on top of being very militaristic (obviously) strike me as one of the most hierarchical orders on Mystara. However, other than the highest levels, the exact composition of the hierarchy has never been detailed. Maybe one of our Germanic scholars could provide appropriate ranks and Hattian sounding names, to help us place HK characters within the hierarchy. - -III *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:12:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Morrow Subject: [MYSTARA] - Drakes everywhere Some time ago I was working on developing mandrake and coldrake character classes based on the woodrakes in PC1. (I was also thinking about an Elemental Drake class, but never made any progress with that). A question came up as to the exact nature of the drakes transformations into demi humans. Should they be considered demi humans of the same level with all the same abilities as the form they are mimicking? This is particularly a concern for the coldrake, since gnomes have such a wide array of special abilities (see PC2). Which, if any, should the Drakes have access to? Of course this would effect their XP progression. The RC describes the transformation as a polymorph effect, while PC1 describes it as shapechange, so there is no help there. I rather like the idea of a high level coldrake in a gnomish community somewhere using the gnomish meddling abilities to build a better lockpick and various other devices to help him in burglary and thieving. On one hand, it could be a little unbalancing, or at least make his XP progression prohibitive. On the other hand, set beside the Nagpa or the Sphinx from PC2, a drake with all the gnomes abilities while in gnomish form doesn't seem much of a threat to campaign balance. Any thoughts? - -III *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:09:51 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara At 11:21 PM 2/25/98 -0000, you wrote: >>Oh, and I'm sure the Karamekians will thank you so profusely for the hhonor >>of hosting Strahd... >Hmmm, though I may be misreading your post, I just want ot clarify that the vampire would also be renamed,(i.e. Baron Koriszegy). I would simply use the module as a framework for a foray into Koriszegy Keep. S'okay; I've had other posts misread on another list (don't even ask about that flamewar) so I'm getting used to the idea. I just meant that Ravenloft is one of the nastiest castles TSR ever designed. The thought that the Karamekians are going to have to watch dozens of their younger generation become fang fodder in that place will have King Stefan 's troops knocking on your door asking if you wouldn't mind being arrested for cruelty to NPCs, whether it's Strahd himself or a renamed version. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara At 11:44 AM 2/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >I've been thinking about a Boxed set called "Thyatis and the Known World" forcusing on Thyatis, but with quite a good introduction its neighbouring nations. Artwork by Larry Elmore or Brom. Postersized maps, heavy weight of "feel" and culture. Make it really big, too...the box should be as big as the Dragon Mountain or Forgotten Realms boxed sets, and should be as tightly packed as the old DC Heroes game was (when you took the shrinkwrap off, the box lid actually raised up a bit because there was so much stuff in it). Maybe include a cardboard model of the City of Thyatis, on a 1:1 scale (1 inch = 1 inch). Wouldn't that be fun? Just don't ask how much it would cost... Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:20:24 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara At 01:05 PM 2/26/98 +0000, you wrote: >Another suggestion: >I converted the Lendor-Series (two modules) into Mystara and put the described landscape onto Gapton in the Minrothad Guilds. Which modules are these? I've never heard of them. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:22:40 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 07:44 AM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? Blackmoor nuked the surface; do the Immortals really want to preserve a techno-mad culture without enough intelligence to prevent their own self-destruction? What if the Blackmoorians HAD been preserved in the Hollow World? By now they would have done something pretty horrible to it, according to their own Cultural Bias. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:00 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>For those who don't know, the temple was detailed in the long lost rulebook: Blackmoor. It is not-quite identical to the adventure presented in DA2. >Which Blackmoor rulebook is that? I have the Judge's Guild Blackmoor supplement, and there is nothing on the Temple of the Frog in that. Was there another Blackmoor supplement? >------------------------ >Cthuludrew, the Great Old One It's in my copy of The First Fantasy Campaign from Judge's Guild which is DA's book about his Blackmoor campaign. It's different in many details from the DA2 version. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:40:21 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 09:22 AM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 07:44 AM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? >Blackmoor nuked the surface; do the Immortals really want to preserve a techno-mad culture without enough intelligence to prevent their own self-destruction? What if the Blackmoorians HAD been preserved in the Hollow World? By now they would have done something pretty horrible to it, according to their own Cultural Bias. The Immortals can choose what time period to preserve. The time period of King Uther was quite a "Arthur and Roundtable" type period and well worth saving. I believe the cataclysm caught the Immortals completely off guard. However they do have the ability to go back in time and either undo harm or preserve cultures. The question remains, what bias do the majority of Immortals have against the Blackmoorians? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:43:39 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 Inconu@aol.com wrote: ><< Has anyone wrote stories >set in Mystara? >> >I wrote a story called "The Lost Soldier" and I've come up with a few short stories, but most of them are on original work and nothing canon. Certain aspects of my Mystara are drastically different then the norm, but i'm sure that goes for a bunch of people on the list. Doesn't matter to me if they are in conflict with other material. If they are good enough, I might change the other stuff. >Anyways, they've been based in the past for the most part (about 80 years back), and some have to do with why and how the continents got thier names.....Different heroes....lost races......things like that. Wow sounds cool! Go ahead and post it >I still have a few more pages to write to finish "the lost soldier", but either way...it's probably too long to post on the list. You can split it up. Send us a chapter a day or something :) Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:45:46 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Names On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Frederic Ferro wrote: >Does anyone know : >2. the name of the Red Dragon in the Wyrms Teeth (Norwold) ? He (or she?) is mentioned in PWAII but has no "official" name... I suspect that this is the Red Dragon featured in the Dragonlord Triology. IIRC his name is Jargnir(spl?) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #121 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, February 26 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 122 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. Re(2): [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to pla Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:44:14 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >At 01:01 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Apostles. The paring to twelve may have come about the same time that inhuman abomination Galahad appeared. >Inhuman abomination? Rather harsh, isn't it? Galahad was the purest knight of all, even moreso than his father, Lancelot. He was a paragon of virtue, and one of only three knights who could complete the Quest for the Holy Grail. Not quite an abomination, really. First, Galahad was inhuman. He was completely sinless, which made him an abomination if the Round Table stories are supposedly in a Christian milieu--Christian doctrine is that only Christ is sinless, and any claim by anyone else to be sinless is to claim that one is Christ. Finally, he is an abomination because Galahad denies the doctrines of repentance and redemption. Only he gains the full value of the Grail, and that is only because he has never sinned. If the Grail is supposed to be a symbol of the gifts of Christ (which Malory made it out to be), then one need need not be sinless in order to partake of it, merely truly penitent. Now, if the round table were presented as a purely Gnostic tableaux, Galahad would be less of an abomination, since he is a Gnostic hero. However, the round table, by the time Galahad arrives, has Christian trappings, and the Gnostic Galahad doesn't fit that mileu. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:49:51 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Which Blackmoor rulebook is that? I have the Judge's Guild Blackmoor supplement, and there is nothing on the Temple of the Frog in that. Was there another Blackmoor supplement? Temple of the Frog was the very first AD&D module ever published--it appeared in the "Blackmoor" supplement published by Tactical Studies Rules, which later became TSR. Blackmoor was published after Greyhawk and before Eldritch Wizardry. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:56:20 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. >First, Galahad was inhuman. Well, in the version you are referring to, he was inhuman only so far as he was a symbol. He was completely sinless, which made him an aabomination if the Round Table stories are supposedly in a Christian milieu--Christian doctrine is that only Christ is sinless, and any claim by anyone else to be sinless is to claim that one is Christ. I would not call him an abomination any more than any other Christ-like figure in literature. Read him as a symbol rather than a historical figure who claims "claims to be Christ". >Finally, he is an abomination because Galahad denies the doctrines of repentance and redemption. Only he gains the full value of the Grail, and that is only because he has never sinned. If the Grail is supposed to be a symbol of the gifts of Christ (which Malory made it out to be), then one need need not be sinless in order to partake of it, merely truly penitent. The Grail is indeed a symbol but I would argue that it is more a symbol of the quest for moral perfection rather than the gifts of Christ. We receive the gifts of Christ, as you say, whether we are sinless or not as long as we are penitent. The quest for moral perfection on the other hand is one which we should all be partaking of and yet we will never succeed in. The greatest knight of the land, Lancelot, was not able to drink of the Grail. The best he could do was catch a glimpse of it. And yet this is far more than most of us could dream of. >Now, if the round table were presented as a purely Gnostic tableaux, Galahad would be less of an abomination, since he is a Gnostic hero. By "Gnostic" I am understanding you to mean that heretical sect of early Christians who interpreted the Scriptures along a more mystical line. Correct me if I am misunderstanding you. >However, the round table, by the time Galahad arrives, has Christian trappings, and the Gnostic Galahad doesn't fit that mileu. I am disagreeing with your reading of Galahad...sort of at least. I don't see him as a complete 3-d human character at all but as a symbol placed in the story for effect and message. Besides, give Mallory a break! He was trying to get out of prison at the time...:) I hope this "almost religious" discussion has not offended anyone. I do see the discussion as being relevant as the Blackmoor of DA1, IM-never-to-be-HO, is very much derived from the Knights of the Round Table. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:52:27 -0600 From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Haavard R. Faanes,Internet writes: >I've been thinking about a Boxed set called "Thyatis and the Known World" forcusing on Thyatis, but with quite a good introduction its neighbouring nations. Artwork by Larry Elmore or Brom. Postersized maps, heavy weight of "feel" and culture. Larry is too DL and Brom (as much as I love is art) does not fit in Mystaran at all. I think Clyde Caldwell is the man. He did do all the Gaz. Im sorta partial to Parkison. (I own some of his work) I personally think that WoTC is going to redo and resell the Gaz series once time has passed and all mystara material is sold off the shelves. (a year or two) TSR has way to much material for WoTC not to pick up the ball. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:01:58 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara << Also I would love to see more Blackmoor modules. We were really left hanging after DA4. What the heck is the "fearsome Egg of Coot" anyway??!! >> Bruce, if you read this: Can you answer the question? AFAIK TSR co-developer Dave Arneson created a ten level dungeon for the Egg of Coot. He should have had some ideas about the Egg. Was it commonly known by TSR authors? Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:01:59 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << I like your thoughts about the HEldannic Knights being more that what they were portrayed as in Princess Ark. There are always more than one side tom a culture. Like the Shadowelves. Anyone thought of adding more dimensions to the Hattians btw? >> Compare the Klingons in the classic Star Trek with the Klingons in TNG and DS9. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:02:02 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting << What were the rules for resting to heal damage? What do most people use? >> One day rest 1-2 hp. Healing spells. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:02:01 EST From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D << As with anything the tables can be used when you want to! When i'm in the game and my PC's stray off the planed pathi sure like to have a random encounter table lying around. But if i roll something i don't like I make something up. Also with every product that i've read made for AD&D it says "Roll on the table if you want to, if you do roll and don't like the rusult Dont use it!" Its not the AD&D system that determins how much RP is involved it is each individual DM. So I don't think this is a valid argument. >> I haven't said that AD&D determins the use of all these tables. I said that it lures the DMs to do so. That's a difference. I've read some letters in Dragons, and I nearly got the impression that some DMs need tables to determine whether their PCs go unhampered through a door or not. As I said, my personal impression. As I have learned (over a long time, I have to admit) it's better to use so few tables as possible. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:27:01 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 20:47 21-02-98 EST, you wrote: ><< So if I'm don't wrong, the Inmortals are Gods. So the word "Inmortal" iit's not correct when it used in D&D. >> >You're wrong. If D&D Mystaran Immortals would feel themselves as gods, they would call themselves gods. Only if that term existed at all. Nobody would claim that they lived on a planet unless they Knew that it was a planet (a funny detail actually, fantasy people are often very well aware of outer space, stars and planets, even though they haven't explored half their own world) or claim that it was round, so likewise no immortal would call himself god, unless he knew what that term implied, but if there are no gods the term wouldn't exist and nobody would use it. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:01:55 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D << If you think it that terrifying then just don´t do it in your campaign. But think of a newbie-DM. In his position some basic rules are the only guidelines he has. Experience comes with time and then he can adjust the rules to his (AND THE GROUPS´) liking. Or have you been born a perfect DM?? *if really then I envy you* Another thing: you can tell the "good" from the "bad" rules only if you tested their influence on the game. Last comment: If you cry over the rolls and the tables take a look at Rolemaster or MERP (same system). There you can really see tables and rules that restrict the DM. >> You said it: SOME "basic rules"! But I think we agree in one point: With growing experience most tables should (and will) be dropped. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:17:45 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 01:01 PM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: ><< I like your thoughts about the HEldannic Knights being more that what they wwere portrayed as in Princess Ark. There are always more than one side tom a culture. Like the Shadowelves. Anyone thought of adding more dimensions to the Hattians btw? >> >Compare the Klingons in the classic Star Trek with the Klingons in TNG and DS9. Sorry, I do not see a connection between the Klingons and the Heldannic Knights at all. I know the inspiration for the plotlines in "The Princess Ark" were taken from Star Trek but I believe the relevance ends there. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:20:21 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara At 01:01 PM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: ><< Also I would love to see more Blackmoor modules. We were really left hhanging after DA4. What the heck is the "fearsome Egg of Coot" anyway??!! >> >Bruce, if you read this: Can you answer the question? AFAIK TSR co-developer Dave Arneson created a ten level dungeon for the Egg of Coot. He should have had some ideas about the Egg. Was it commonly known by TSR authors? Yes! I have heard of that 10 level dungeon and am incredibly intrigued. When someone else on the list mentioned a new boxed set I thought to myself "Self, wouldn't it be AWESOME if they came out with a super dungeon for Mystara?" The 10 level dungeon crawl of the Egg of Coot could be placed in the setting of Blackmoor and yet useable for any other campaign. Therefore it is an extremely viable possibility. I am sending an immediate e-mail to WotC. Right now. I think anyone else interested should do so as well. Thanks Jamuga! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:27:02 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >At 07:44 AM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce >>that many Immortals? I'm I mistaken but aren't the Blacklore elves the HW preservation of Blackmoor? I've read alot about the HW but I don't own much about the known world so if anyone can clear this up for me it would be great. Steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:42:02 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D >As I have learned (over a long time, I have to admit) it's better to use so few tables as possible. I agree with you there. Tables can create very unrealistic and unbeleivable siituations. Where i find talbes most useful is when I don't know what the PC's want to do next. I usually have the campaign set up in high detail but if i don't know what they want to do i have to rely on my imagination, and somedays it isn't as good as others. If i don't know that they plan on jumping on a ship and sail to Nithia until they just jump up and do it I like to have good old core rules running on my PC and generate some encounters if i have to. Another positive experience i've had whith tables is the World Builders Guidebook. I've been working on my own campaign setting and that book has been very helpful. It presents, if nothing else, a large selection of options that you can use wether you roll on the table or not. Steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:38:28 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 12:27 PM 2/26/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >>At 07:44 AM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? >I'm I mistaken but aren't the Blacklore elves the HW preservation of Blackmoor? I've read alot about the HW but I don't own much about the known world so if anyone can clear this up for me it would be great. As near as I can tell the Blacklore elves are from Evergrun while Blackmoor existed as far away as Skothar. While there was traffic between them, they were certainly not the same culture. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:39:38 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 12:27 PM 2/26/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >>At 07:44 AM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? >I'm I mistaken but aren't the Blacklore elves the HW preservation of Blackmoor? I've read alot about the HW but I don't own much about the known world so if anyone can clear this up for me it would be great. Actually in addition to them being so far apart, after Blackmoor was destroyed the Blacklore elves continued to live in technological opulence. This is what caused the break with Ilsundal taking his "back to nature" elves north. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:51:08 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) At 11:51 22-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >>Speaking of taxes, if any nation faces ruin due to taxes it is Thyatis. Their >>tax is what 25%. Though still less than the 35-45% Americans get it still is a >>burden. With Alphatia weakened as a world power the tie of protection the Empire offers is diminished. Hence you may see bids for independance by various kingdoms. You complain about taxes!!! You haven't been to Denmark then. Lets see first I start with paying an 8% tax "Market Support" I think, then I pay 42%, which is cheap as I have a low income being a student and all and on most things you buy there is a 25% tax (higher on alchohol, cigarettes, gasoline), which means accidentally that the car-salesmen buy cars much cheaper than most others, as otherwise the taxes would make it too expensive to buy a car. >I agree. In my campaign (circa AC1000) it is already pointed out that this country is one of the highest taxed countries. Players find this out when they adventure in Thyatis and find it is one of the few that tax adventure income at all (and 25% is going to be noticed!). BTW does anyone know how was payed in taxes in RW middle age, just for a comparison, I know that one tenth was given to the church and a lord doesn't need to ask for much more before we surpass Thyatis' 25%. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:02:32 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D At 17:47 22-02-98 EST, you wrote: ><< >But speaking of dragons, it should be pointed out that Ravenloft is bare of dragons. Aside from a reference to a small red dragon in the novel "Knight of >the Black Rose" no other dragons are to be found. BTW IMO RL is one of the other AD&D settings with a substance based background. Very well done. >> >i agree. Ravenloft really has shown the aspect of how creatures without billions of HD and special abilities can still make the toughest adversaries. There are even darklords that are level zero. Dragonlance was good, but i think it was overdone especially with that new dragon that could capture a great wyrm black dragon in its maw. >I don't really think it's a question of AD&D vs OD&D though. Regardless of what the source books say, it always ends up to the DM as to how many of whatever creatures exist or will be encountered. In my last three campaigns I have used a total of one dragon ("taa daa"), even though I am considering including whole TWO dragons in the second campaign, the first being a red one, though it will take long before they see or meet it, they will only experince its manipulations and the second one is a white one, which they will hear rumors about and they might decide that they one day will be powerful enough to dare meet it. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 10:58:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation >Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? Maybe the Immortals DID put Blackmoor in the Hollow World... one message I got from the HW boxed set was that there is a lot more there than what the box contained, and lots of room for individual GMs to add stuff. If you want Blackmoor preserved in the HW, why not just write up a gazetteer for it? (Also, would the Immortals perserve selective portions of a culture? Perhaps they preserved Blackmoorian culture, but not its technology...?) Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 11:11:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to pla >Larry is too DL and Brom (as much as I love is art) does not fit in Mystaran at all. I think Clyde Caldwell is the man. He did do all the Gaz. Im sorta partial to Parkison. (I own some of his work) Bring back Erol Otus!! ;-) Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 11:10:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in >Yes! I have heard of that 10 level dungeon and am incredibly intrigued. When someone else on the list mentioned a new boxed set I thought to myself "Self, wouldn't it be AWESOME if they came out with a super dungeon for Mystara?" Wouldn't it be awesome if a group on this list got together and designed a 10-level dungeon crawl set in Mystara? Something really big, comparable maybe to undermountain. *That* would attract the attention of a lot of AD&D players to Mystara... if you want to win converts, you could liberally sprinkle it with references to other parts of Mystara. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:17:43 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: Materialism [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings)] At 08:19 23-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >"What? They all get together and VOTE for their leaders?? That is rather odd. It makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable." "No this is great. All I have to do is get their votes, let's see where can I hire some goons to convince people or should I pay people to vote on me?" Emil Radu, outcast of Karameikos longing for power once again. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:12:18 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) At 07:51 PM 2/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >At 11:51 22-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >>>Speaking of taxes, if any nation faces ruin due to taxes it is Thyatis. TTheir >>>tax is what 25%. Though still less than the 35-45% Americans get it still iis a >>>burden. With Alphatia weakened as a world power the tie of protection the Empire offers is diminished. Hence you may see bids for independance by various kingdoms. >You complain about taxes!!! Yes, yes I do. >You haven't been to Denmark then. No, no I haven't. >Lets see first I start with paying an 8% tax "Market Support" I think, then I pay 42%, That is incredible! which is cheap as I have a low income being a student and all aand on most things you buy there is a 25% tax (higher on alchohol, cigarettes, gasoline), which means accidentally that the car-salesmen buy cars much cheaper than most others, as otherwise the taxes would make it too expensive to buy a car. That does not make it right. >>I agree. In my campaign (circa AC1000) it is already pointed out that this country is one of the highest taxed countries. Players find this out when they adventure in Thyatis and find it is one of the few that tax adventure income at all (and 25% is going to be noticed!). >BTW does anyone know how was payed in taxes in RW middle age, just for a comparison, I know that one tenth was given to the church and a lord doesn't need to ask for much more before we surpass Thyatis' 25%. Well, I consider the tithe to be different and seperate from the state tax. But no, I don't know how much the tax was. But then again there aren't terribly many KW countries that are similar to the middle ages. Counting magic as a substitute for technology for a moment, I would consider Mystaran society to be as advanced as our own. They are battling disease effectively, they build ships that can reach the stars, and there are some "assistance programs" like Thyatis' free bread dole. Therefore I consider it reasonable to pattern Mystara's tax structures after RW tax structures. I think the place to begin is in detailing what a given country spends its tax money on. If anyone can add to this list please do so. THYATIS Roads Temples (I think there would be government assist for some temples in addition to the tithe) Military Agriculture Construction Free bread Entertainment (Arena, Races) Salaries (The Emperor as well as the Senate I think would have some sort of stipend) Magical Research ALPHATIA Military (Not as much spent as Thyatis. The individual Kingdoms are responsible for a large portion) Magical Research Salaries (Perhaps, although the prestige of being a council member might be enough to not have a salary) It is important to note that Alphatian taxes, if spread throughout the citizenry, would be less than Thyatian taxes. But Alphatia does not tax the higher social classes as much as the lower. These are my thoughts anyway... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:26:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >While I've got Blackmoor on my mind (though not much knowledge but that never kept anyone quiet ;), are the giants and giant-kin a young enough race to have been affected (radiation mutation) by the Blackmoor explosion? Perhaps originally human or beastman (or elves, etc) that were seriously affected by the Great Rain of Fire. It's never been explicitly stated, though here are a couple of thoughts... 1) Assuming (and I'm sure I read this somewhere) the giants are an offshoot of the Beastmen, then they are post-cataclysmic. It has been postulated by myself and others that the end of the Beastmen's genetic unstability was directly related to the radiation from the Blackmoor devastation- ie, the radiation affected the DNA of the Beastmen, causing them to breed true. Actually, come to think of it, I think I may have postulated the reverse, that the radiation caused them to mutate wildly, and once the massive influx of radiation was gone (post-cataclysm) the Beastmen finally bred true. Hm. In any case, if you want to make the connection, there is surely precedent for it there. 2) There are Fire Giants (at least- I think there are others, as well) in the DA series (DA3: City of the Gods, to be exact). From that, one might make the assumption that the Giantish races were already present on Mystara during the Blackmoor era. Of course, there are Trolls, Goblins, Orcs, and Gnolls, as well (due to the later retcon of the Beastmen race) so you are still free to postulate as you would. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #122 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, February 26 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 123 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Blackmoor (was:- What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara) [MYSTARA] - Anyone using FUDGE in Mystara? Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeons and Democracy Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail [MYSTARA] - RE: Kings & Queens Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality [MYSTARA] - Krugel HWR/GAZ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:27:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >I wish I could contribute to this thread better but I usually butcher published adventures so much that you probably couldn't see why I bothered to use it. If any of you have the Ravenloft adventure Ship of Horror, I think it converts very easily into a Mystara adventure. Just remove the parts that deal with Ravenloft and its a good haunted ship story. Heck, you could leave them in for that matter. The mage Meredoth (Is that right?) who is mentioned/described in the module has since been retconned into an Alphatian Baron whose dominion in Norwold was sucked into Ravenloft. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:30:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Blackmoor (was:- What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara) On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >>Just that I really like the Blackmoor era. And am working on a project related to that era with Geoff Gander that will hopefully see the light of day before the end of the year. :) >I'm really looking forward to this. Will this be in line with the Mystaros timeline? It won't as I can see invalidate anything from Mystaros' timeline, no. But it won't necessarily tie in with it, either. Essentially, it will tie in very closely with the history given in the modules. Mystaros' timeline covers a vast span of years- hundreds of years at a time- while this particular project will only cover a very short period. Trying not to give it all away until I'm confident I've got enough info to pass on... :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 11:34:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: [MYSTARA] - Anyone using FUDGE in Mystara? Just wondering if anyone is using FUDGE to run a game set in Mystara. As much as I love OD&D, Fudge has much to recommend it. I think Jamuga Khan summed it up pretty well: "The more complicated you make a thing, the more difficult it becomes to remember and the more you are disappointed in the last." Anyway, has anyone done conversions of character classes, magic, and stuff? I am thinking that Fudge (with suitable modifiations) can almost duplicate the OD&D style and flavor. In fact, since OD&D is out of print, and AD&D is extremely complex, Fudge might be used as a replacement for OD&D. The characters would look pretty similar: Grelf the Elf (OD&D version) Level 3 Elf, Chaotic, THACO 19, hp 13 STR 17 (+2 hit/damage) INT 14 (+1 extra language) WIS 11 DEX 11 CON 9 CHA 12 Weapons: Basic with all weapons Skills: Tracking-14, Survival-14, Alchemy-14, Wrestling-17, Deception-12 Equipment: Sword (1d8), Longbow (1d6), Dagger (1d4) Grelf the Elf (FUDGE version) Level 3 Elf, Chaotic, hp 13 STR great (+2 damage) INT good (+1 extra language) WIS fair DEX fair CON fair CHA fair Weapons: Fair skill with all weapons Skills: Tracking good, Survival good, Alchemy good, Wrestling great, Deception fair Equipment: Sword (1d8), Longbow (1d6), Dagger (1d4) Anyone interested in (or using) this sort of thing? Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:43:56 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 17:55 23-02-98 CET, you wrote: >>Another thought is the alterred memories themselves and the possible paradoxes. Places such as Bluenose who boasted their beaches will find business down as the sea is replaced by open sky. This has got to sstrike even >>the lowest level NPC as strange. With so little income how did all tthese grand >>and expensive buildings get paid for. "Well, legends tell about an ancient time, when there was more land and a lovely lake here, but the people on the other side grew jealous of the people on this side because they were rich, due their beaches, and they decided on an evil plan to steal the lovely beaches, however such an evil behavior offended the Immortals and they made the land fall away and so disappeared the water. Another legend tells that it was because the rich ones on the side with the beaches became so arrogant, that the Immortals decided to take away their lake and transfer those on the other side to another place with a lovely lake and lovely beaches and that my children is the true story for I have seen it myself". Well that ought to solve that problem, well at least let me hear some coments on this idea. In general I think there are too few legends in Mystara, somehow they always discover the truth and have no problem with it. What if the Immortals didn't want the Mystarans to know that they lived on a planet and therefore ordered their clerigs to destroy the infidels who said otherwise and why would anyone doubt them, as the Immortals can prove to their followers they are right with a miracle here or there? Sometimes the Mystarans are a little bit too civilized for my taste or perhaps it is because I never hear about the common peasant. Nothing like a fantastic adventure whereafter nobody would beleive the PCs beacause it's too fantastic. "Yeah sure you and your friends saved the Spring and drove Winter away, just like the last time when you visited a flying city, if you won't come home to dinner, you might just as well stay away instead of lying to me." A disgruntled Traladaran father, that just can't believe that there is much outside his homevillage, to his adventuring son. >Yes, that is a problem. I think that is something we should find a solution for when we discuss events for 1016, Alex. >Tell me Alex, you can't wait discussing Alphatia's future, eh? :) Well, we'll have plenty of time to do that for the 1016 almanac. And for some of the questions you have in mind, theyfind their answer in the 1015 almanac... Aaarrrgh. I can hardly wait anylonger for the almanac...hmmm...I guess I'll just hold my breath untill then.....hurry up, please... Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:35:59 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in At 11:10 AM 2/26/98 PST, you wrote: >>Yes! I have heard of that 10 level dungeon and am incredibly intrigued. When someone else on the list mentioned a new boxed set I thought to myself "Self, wouldn't it be AWESOME if they came out with a super dungeon for Mystara?" >Wouldn't it be awesome if a group on this list got together and designed a 10-level dungeon crawl set in Mystara? Something really big, comparable maybe to undermountain. *That* would attract the attention of a lot of AD&D players to Mystara... if you want to win converts, you could liberally sprinkle it with references to other parts of Mystara. Okay. Where should we set the dungeon? An obvious choice might be the undercity of Thyatis. But I think this smacks too much of Waterdeep and Undermountain... I think a better idea would be... A certain mountain-sized city called Citadel. Someone else mentioned its possibilities as a super-dungeon (Cthul I think?). But here's more: The ruined Citadel beneath the ocean provides opportunity for a huge, unique environment. Parts of it can be filled with water and parts with air pockets to provide some variety. The place is likely filled with Shark-kin, Devilfish, Tritons, Kopru, and the less intelligent water breathers: Squid, Octopi, Pirannha Fish...And then there can always be undead of different varieties. Especially the ones that correspond to Mystara. It can be set in the years right after the sinking when there will likely be a power struggle going on in the place to acquire the ancient Alphatian magics present. This provides ample reason for a diverse environment filled with possibility. I suggest once again we e-mail WotC about the Egg of Coot as its success could drive the possibility of this project! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:38:52 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail >>is it clearer when books use the masculine pronoun exclusively when they mean both genders? get with the times! >When the masculine is used as a generic pronoun, yes it is clearer. no it isn't. it's only less upsetting to chauvinists. this will be my last comment on this since again we are off the mailing list topic. m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:52:52 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Glen Sprigg wrote: >Blackmoor nuked the surface; do the Immortals really want to preserve a techno-mad culture without enough intelligence to prevent their own self-destruction? What if the Blackmoorians HAD been preserved in the Hollow World? By now they would have done something pretty horrible to it, according to their own Cultural Bias. But wouldn't that be where the Spell of Preservation comes in? Alphatian magic/Blackmoor technology would be handled the same. Yes? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:06:43 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeons and Democracy At 22:24 23-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >At 06:54 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >>*gulp* >>Some suggest that democracies cannot last any longer that that. >>*gulp* >Britain has been a democracy for a long, long time, far more than 200 years, monarchy notwithstanding. I'll defer to the Brits on the list, but wasn't Magna Carta (1215 AD) what started the whole thing? The Dansih monarchy is older than that. We count back to Harald Blåtand (Harald Bluetooth), that's somewhere around 900 - 1000, can't recall it precisely. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:12:31 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail At 11:38 AM 2/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >>>is it clearer when books use the masculine pronoun exclusively when they mean both genders? get with the times! >>When the masculine is used as a generic pronoun, yes it is clearer. >no it isn't. it's only less upsetting to chauvinists. this will be my last comment on this since again we are off the mailing list topic. Yes it is. No its not. Mine too. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:32:15 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: [MYSTARA] - RE: Kings & Queens >>>Why do immortals have to have a different name as immortals? If they do have a different name, how would their own people recognize them? Why can't Gorm and Madarua and Usamigaras keep their names? Is there any possible way I can convince you guys to leave open the M-Persian possibility? (if not i will let it go) >>Whoa there! :-) Good questions, but I fell into the TSR tradition of Immortals changing their names - I see no reason why Persian elements could not be involved. Mind you, I know little about it, so the ball would have to be in your court on this one :-). >This is a good question. I wonder if it should be opened up to a wider audience though? My understanding of the name change is that it allows an Immortal to gain a following among a people... >Similar to what it says in the Bible about prophets not being accepted among their own people... >You know, "What? Old Tolameius is preaching about some new Immortal named Fredicus? Wasn't Fredicus that kid who used to pick his nose and babble about how he was going to climb a mountain and speak to the Immortals? Always thought he was the village idiot...much less an Immortal!" >In other words my thought is that the name change gives and aura of mystery rather than ordinariness. However a great hero or wise man...like ole Siddhartha...may very well keep his name for the recognition... >My mention of a larger audience is just from the thought of it being mentioned in the rules as a must...I don't know. Naw let's keep it among ourselves. The heck with everybody else! :) I think your concerns here are very important. I wasn't aware that this was a rules *must*. My initial reaction is that this is really strange, since usually the thing that makes a person "immortal" in the RW is being famous in life, and in many cultures the Gods were probably once heroes immortalized through oral tradition. I see no reason why things would be different in Mystara ... especially considering the particular paths to immortality, each of these was about acheiving some kind of legendary status *in life*, which justified the acquisition of followers. None of these paths ... the epic hero, the paragon, the polymath, or the dynast, would be anonymous, nor would they be the kind of thing that would leave behind a reputation like "that snot nosed kid" or "village idiot". at least, this was the original idea, which seemed to imply strongly that immortals would have an incentive to keep their mortal identity. later, however, syncretism was introduced, meaning the idea that a single immortal can have multiple identities in the different cultures without those cultures realizing the similarities ... thus Korotiku, Vanya, Ordana, Thor, all sorts of deities are worshipped under multiple names in widely scattered cultures. now, in a magical world, it is not necessary that an immortal being would have to be immortal in our "modern" sense of being preserved in cultural memory, and of course syncretism is important in the RW too, and their might be other reasons for an immortal to hide her identity (fear of Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:14:21 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #123 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: faeb67fad95088fb8e446b8b264e5162 rogue chronomancers eliminating her mortal lifeline, etc.) but is it really appropriate to say that immortals automatically ditch these identities? and if they do, how is it that they EVER get worshipped in their native culture (such as is the case with the C-3)? anyway we SHOULD open this up to the list as it is a general issue of some importance, so i've posted this to the MML as well. >>>why did you choose real world names for several of the monarchs? (heracles, thrasymachus, etc.) ... these seem kind of jolting to me. anyway i anxiously await more words from your keyboard. >>Hmm, they were the only classical Greek names that came to mind while at work. Also, these names IMO are reminiscent of heroes, and Cynidicean kings seem to me to be in that tradition. Er, that's it, really. >Yeah. I really don't have any problem with the names myself. Might as well make them all real Greek names since Alexander is used. good point. i guess i thought we could probably use more obscure greek names and possibly suspend disbelief a little better. but there's nothing particularly wrong with the ones geoff chose. >How about adding a few kings who may or may not still be alive? Like Gaius who was discovered to be a lich and fled the throne when his followers revolted against him. interesting! how about the Gray Philosopher from MMCA? the notes on individualizing monsters mentions a "Telarxes the Wicked" ... he's either Milenian or Doulakki, right? why not make him cynidicean? >Or Psocretus, a rather hairy king with a bad smell, who reigned during a time when the people were plagued by a horrible wolf creature. His reign ended when the villagers killed the wolf creature. The odd thing is that the wolf creature did not revert to the shape of Psocretus...making many doubt that the two were indeed the same. IIRC this is prior to the canonical dates for the introduction of Lycanthropy to Brun. I will check PC4 tonight if I remember. not that there couldn't be some slightly different native strain. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:40:28 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara At 20:21 24-02-98 -0800, you wrote: >Hey Mystaran's: >Just a quick "I was wondering..." set of questions: >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? Mainly 1000AC, but has now moved to 1004, beginning the War. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? I want to use it all, but havn't had much time to play D&D/Mystara for a long while. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information pprovided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? It would be a shame not to use both periods as they a very exciting and gives the DM an easy way to make one wondrous campaign, where the players can feel the gameworld move around them. >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? Perhaps a series of historical adventures? Or the D%D-Mystaran version of TSR's Historical References? Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:47:34 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) At 03:28 25-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >I know this was an old thread but I think it is relevant to future history in Mystara. >2) MAGIC! Why would I want to make a gun if I could cast a fireball? The only ones who would bother with chemicals are alchemists who are usually magic-users of some kind. "OOOH! I just developed a powder which explodes!" "Big Deal! Here's a Lightning Bolt for you!" For those who can't use magic and it can be a nasty surprise for the archmage who has all he defense spells against magic up to suddenly realize that he forgot all about firepower. Also why not use it when you are out of spells? >I have no idea where this is headed but maybe someone can guide me. I just see that Mystara will NEVER advance much more than it will now. I don't think we'll see halflings riding autobikes with sidecars. Hmm, then don't get your hands on the Amazing Engine book Magi-Tech (if I recall the title right or am I mixing things up?). Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:13:16 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Heck, you could leave them in for that matter. The mage Meredoth (Is that right?) who is mentioned/described in the module has since been retconned into an Alphatian Baron whose dominion in Norwold was sucked into Ravenloft. DOH! I even remember when that was being discussed here. Did anyone ever place the original dominion? I think if I ever decided to try Ravenloft that that's where my entry point would be. Or just make the original whole dominion a mini-Ravenloft. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:32:09 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in MichaelX Harvey wrote: >Wouldn't it be awesome if a group on this list got together and designed a 10-level dungeon crawl set in Mystara? Something really big, comparable maybe to undermountain. *That* would attract the attention of a lot of AD&D players to Mystara... if you want to win converts, you could liberally sprinkle it with references to other parts of Mystara. If that's not asking for opinions, I don't know what is (probably isn't but I won't let that stand in my way)... Someone pick a spot. Get ten people to design a level each and one person to tie it all together. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:59:29 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Lille My wrote: >Only if that term existed at all. Nobody would claim that they lived on a planet unless they Knew that it was a planet (a funny detail actually, fantasy people are often very well aware of outer space, stars and planets, even though they haven't explored half their own world) or claim that it was round, so likewise no immortal would call himself god, unless he knew what that term implied, but if there are no gods the term wouldn't exist and nobody would use it. You know, I've wondered about spelljamming myself. They travel across the spheres in Realmspace, Greyspace, etc and yet you can't find out exactly how many continents Toril or Oerth has. I think that's a good point about Immortals not being gods simply because the word hasn't been defined by them. So, I guess the question is... when compared to gods of other settings, how do the Immortals compare? If there's no difference then they could be included in the term _gods_. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:12:20 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [MYSTARA] - Krugel HWR/GAZ It's surprising how quickly this went. Started it Monday I think (though I had the format set some time before that) and then just worked on it during my scant free time during midterm week. Anyways, hope you all enjoy and please please please please please please send any comments. The Krugel Orcs Hollow World Reference by Mischa Gelman National Organization The entire region is organized along military lines. The herders and other civilians make their homes in the simple villages and towns that serve as the military camps, on the lowest levels of the organization. The towns of one area are united when the Krugel plan their raids - this collection of towns is headed by a Kapitann of the Krugel army and practices maneuvers together thrice a year. The Kapitann's groups unite once a year under a general of the Krugel army - there are four such groups in the d esert, one in the north, one in the south, one in the west and one in the east. These groups are each designated with a color (black,red,white or purple), while the Kapitann's groups are given numbers and the towns are given symbols. Krugel, even civil ians, identify themselves by these groups - 5th Black Condor or 12th Red Lance. These names also are the names of the towns, something outsiders rarely manage to grasp. The symbols often specify the approach of the town's military. Some towns speciali ze in training warrior-priests, others in missile combat, others in herding and some have been rumored to even try taming bounders for use in combat. The 4 main divisions are of similar composition, but their generals' styles differ oftentimes and make t hem each unique. The eastern branch (Purple) are traditionally more passive and defensive, aas they are further from the action. The southern branch (Black) are the most innovative, being forced to meet the Kogolor, their most bitter and most difficult opponents. The westernmost branch (Red) has it simple - they pick on the simple Neather and Antalian communities and as such can prefer to be sloppy and disorganized, relying more on brute force. The northern branch (White) tends to mix the aspects of the Red and Purple, not involved in the action too often but occasionally utilized for light raids. They most often are used as the mercenaries and as such are into planning for the occasion. Their tasks include bargaining with the other nations, organ izing supply lines, and managing long cross-continent marches. The White orcs are often ridiculed for associating with non-Krugels. These four approaches mentioned are very general, as an individual general can change the approach of their troops drasti cally - by no means are these set in stone. In fact, when changes occur, it often catches the non-Krugel with whom they associate unawares- the dwarves don't expect typically Red approaches while the Azcan would be surprised by the innovativeness of the Black troops if they were hired (and the Azcan would be very upset if the approaches failed) Communication The Krugel communicate through this vast land and organizational system by utilizing a system of horse riders. They are not part of any unit of the military, but rather distinct. They occupy the same rank as your typical soldier. They must spend a year in training to learn the geography of the Krugel lands and must be literate a well as being good riders. Any Krugel officer can order any mail-deliverer to deliver a message or a piece of equiptment or anything else to another unit ANYWHERE within Kruge l boundaries. Messages sent to the front must be ordered by a Kapitann or higher. Religion The Krugel are a fairly religious people. They put their faith into Karaash and he rewards this faith by granting the ability of magic to the shamans and wokani of the Krugel. The worship of Karaash does not carry down to the level where the shamans are put under a separate set of guidelines, though. The shamans and wokani must follow the same rules as must all Krugel. Their role blends in well with the military spirit, after all, as Karaash expects his shamans to be warrior-priests, not scholars or medicine men or any other "gentle" role. In fact, shamans who do not adhere to the military life are ostracized from society no matter how knowledgeable they are nor how powerful they may seem to be (though the ostracized are rarely powerful - Karaash te nds to punish the passive with a loss of capacity for magic). One sure way to destablize a Krugel army, and to remove their extremely disciplined approach, is to remove their shamans. For without them, the Krugel cannot be sure if the endeavor is truly blessed by Karaash. Shamans, then, are perhaps even more important than officers, when it comes to the military effectiveness of the Krugel. Respect for Authority Respect must be earned among the Krugel. A high rank or a macho attitude mean nothing to them. Rather, respect is earned on the field of battle. A bold maneuver that pays off, risking your life to save a comrade or retaining discipline during an enemy charge are all actions (or non-actions) that will earn a Krugel respect. A highly respectable Krugel differs from a high-ranking Krugel, but both deserve listening to and obedience to. This does not take the role of blind obedience. If a soldier feels their commander asks too much of them, they can always question their actions and take the matter to the justice system of the Krugel orcs. A commander's word is never absolute - even the newest soldier may question the highest general if they feel their is the need for the questioning. To prevent abuse of this, any Krugel who is found to have questioned a superior when they did not have good reason will be heavily disciplined. They may even be barred from the military for such actions, if done out of spite or egotism, rather than out of a true concern to help the military. Civilians weho question military authorities will often meet a quick death. Respect for Combat Skill The main way to gauge an individual, after their behaviors, is how well they fae in combat. This transcends racial barriers - a Kogolor swordsmen who cuts down 10 charging Krugel will make their way into Krugel legends and be given great respect in them. The Kogolor are HIGHLY respected, in fact, because they can fight. The Krugel have nothing but disdain for the pitiful humans they meet in combat because they faare so poorly. Combat skill is used to judge other nations and races more than manners and respectable behavior - a Kogolor who shows mercy, or bravery will be given even more respect than if (s)he simply fights well, but it is secondary to skill. Among the Krugel, skill in combat is second to respectable behavior. Age and Education The Krugel have a somewhat negative view of the elderly. They recognize the past deeds of a former military leader, but dislike thinking of their decline with age. A Krugel who withstands the effects of age well is seen in much higher views - he or she is thought to have done a better job of developing a true warrior spirit and body, which has sustained them. The young are viewed by their potential to become skilled soldiers. From a very young age, they are taught to respect the military structure and Karaash and to behave in a proper, disciplined manner, especially in combat. Fun is not seen as something to be had in childhood. A youth should spend their days learning about Krugel military history, military organization, combat techniques and religion. They are taught by the Gurin, the teacher-soldiers of the Krugel. A Gurin whose pupil reaches high ran ks is shown great respect by the society for helping further the military. Once a young orc is deemed fit for combat, (s)he is immediately entered into service. If a Krugel does not wish to fight or is incapable of fight, they are sent to work as herder s. If they are not fit for this even, they become a public charge to be supported by the community as a whole. Overall, the orcs try to bring up children in one age group together, to develop comradeship that will be helpful in their future careers. Marriage/Family Structure Krugel marriages occur for any number of reasons. Krugel marry for love. Krugel orcs arrange marriages often. Krugel marry so they can be Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:14:21 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #123 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: faeb67fad95088fb8e446b8b264e5162 associated with a famous military leader. Krugel marry because they just don't believe they can find anyone else. In other words, they're alot like humans in the variety of reasons for marriage. Krugel marriages are for life - no separation by any means, except death. It's a very serious business and not one to jump into lightly. Krugel marriage ceremonies are c onducted by a shaman or wokan of Karaash (NOTE:throughout this document, I always use these two groups together or interchangeably. The Krugel see no difference between them and believe them both to be granted powers by Karaash..they are simply different groups of the same sect. They utilize Karaash's blessing to different affect.) and are very orderly procedures, conducted along time-honored customs. The high point of the ceremony is when the bride and groom exchange their gift. The gifts are weapons designed specifically for the occasion, often at great cost to the couple involved. They are ornately designed ofttimes and are functional as well (that is, not just for show). Losing these weapons is considered a great dishonor. Krugel usually marry within their own town. If they do not, the lower-ranking Krugel goes off to live with the higher-ranking one. If they are of basically even standing socially, they both leave their home communities and move into another community. Such movement is difficult for many Krugel, who are taken from family and must adjust to life with another, as well as having to often adopt the military tactics and techniques of the town they join. Many heads of town dissuade marriage outside the town because they know that its their responsibility if a soldier can't perform because they haven't adjusted to the new life. Still, it does happen not too rarely. Krugel families are headed by whoever has the highest military standing (or higher social position if they are both civilians). Well, nominally at least. In practice, many Krugel families are run jointly or by a lower-ranking member. Children are taugh t to obey their parents and behave properly. At age 5, they are sent to the local Gurins for training. Visits with their parents are often, and few Krugels do not sent letters home when away on a military mission. The families are surprisingly close, s eeing as how the whole institution seems VERY formal and cold to outsiders. The outsiders just don't understand that Krugel express love differently. Foreign Relations The only relations the Krugel have with outsiders is an adversarial one, especially with the Kogolor, or a partnership that goes far from being an alliance. These partnerships are conducted by negotiators of the northern Krugels, who sell the services of these mercenaries to various nations like the Azcan and Schattenalfen. They have little respect for either group and assist them only due to the monetary benefit they gain. All conditions regarding their mercenary service are worked out in the negotiations beforehand. Justice As you can imagine, law and order among the Krugel is run by the military hierarchy. The highest-ranking officer in a town hears any cases that may arise and gives final judgement on them. There is no prior training required in making such decisions, bu t most officers are aware of past precedent and know what sentences will be tolerated by their soldiers and the civilians who under their rule. Appeals may be made to the Kapitann of the region if there is a complaint regarding the judgement. Appeals from there can be made to the general of the area, but such appeals are very rare indeed. A general is a very busy (wo)man and does not have the time to hear every little dispute. Usually the town's officer's decision is accepted. Sentences vary widely, depending on the mindset of the officer in question and the exact nature of the incident. Crimes of war (destroying a target that was supposed to be left standing, torturing a prisoner when not ordered to, breaking from formation and many others are included) are much more serious and often are given a public death as a punishment. Discipline in the Krugel ranks is maintained at all costs, after all. Entertainment The premier form of Krugel entertainment is that of the contest. Tests of strength weapon skill, knowledge of military history and equestrian events are all common types of contests. Life among the Krugel (I'm sure you've grasped this by now ;) revolve s around militaristic views - hence war games and contests which prove skill at war are what Krugel do for fun. They live, eat and breath the military life. Health Care There are no physicians among the Krugel. Most of the healing is not done by shans either - they only treat the very-badly-hurt and diseased Krugel. Most aiulments are treated by Krugel "common sense" treatments, what we today call alternative medicines generally. All Krugel are given lessons in first aid as well during their trainings to become soldiers - not to the point where all have the First Aid skill, but to the point where they know the very basics. Social Hierarchy - --------------- The Four Generals Kapittans Shamans and Wokani Gurins Other officers Rank-and-file Soldiers (all of the above are active in the military, the below are not) Retired military officers Retired soldiers Youth (if they do not join the military, a drop in social status is always the case) Herders Craftsmen and craftswomen Physical Laborers Public Charges All these categories have subdivisions-a general new to the role will have less respect than a general who has had success for 13 years. A Kapittan's prestige is based on their track record as well. Soldiers who have seen much action and survived are gi ven more respect than those who haven't seen a fight. A retired officer's prestige is based on his former successes. A master craftsman will be given more respect than a lesser craftsman. No matter where you stand in your category, though, you can neve r earn more prestige than someone in the above category. A master craftsman will never be given more respect than any herder - a youth whose only future lies as a laborer is still shown more respect than any herder till such time as they are officially l abeled as such. As mentioned before though, respect is tied in to how one conducts ones' self and no Krugel is beyond questioning of another Krugel. The whole thing is a very complicated process an outsider can't hope to fully understand. To the Krugel, it makes perfect sense. History The only history the Krugel remember is military history. When the 4 main branches of the military (Red,Black,White,Purple) were organized ("The Founding"). When the local divisions came to be. When the great battles were fought. Who the great gener als and other heroes were. Such matters concern the Krugel more than anything else and make up the start and end of all their teachings. The foremost memory of their history though is Chief Krugel and all he accomplished in his life. His example is sti ll the one all Krugel hold themselves up to, though they know they can never achieve such heights of success. Examples of Communities: 3rd White Pickaxe-761 members. This group works only on mercenary missions into Azcan territory. Their purpose is to maintain the lines of retreat, to lay siege to any Azcan fortifications and to support the main attack groups. They are mainly complim entary troops, who fulfil a variety of functions. The composition of the 3rd White Pickaxe is also varied - mostly cavalry, some siege specialists (a Krugel rarity), some archers and some shamans/wokani. 34th Purple Bison - 254 members. A small group of herders. Little is to be said of this group, which is pretty far from much of the Purple division even, about as far out in the boondocks as any Krugel group can be. They live off a small river that bra nches off from the main water sources some distance before their land. 10th Black Dwarf - 912 members. A most odd group, the 10th Black Dwarf has decided to model their strategies after the Kogolors who have given them so much trouble. They utilize swords,maces,clubs,spears,javelins,short bows, crossbows and slings. They d o not use cavalry, but rather employ heavy infantry, supported by archers and some shamans/wokani (despite the fact the Kogolor have no mages). Their training is often conducted in mountainous terrain, to try to get them to adjust to the conditions they face in the Kogolor lands. Like most Black units, they have met with some splendid successes and some splendid failures. Their success rate against the Kogolor has been no better and no worse than that of most other Krugel raiders. 25th Red Saber - 1,455 members. Like most Red units, they thrive on the quick hit. Rush in on a simple Antalian or Neather village, kill the guards, scare the rest off, loot the place and abandon it. Other than being a pretty large group, they are typ ical for a western Krugel unit. NPC examples: Shinnpa History - Ever since she her days in training, Shinnpa knew her glory was not to be found in combat. Rather, she thought, it would be in leadership, in bringing troops to victory. While possessing decent oratory skills, though, she obviously just was no t cut out to be a leader. She thus decided to make her living as a negotiator for the 8th White Tent. She took up the study of the Azcan peoples and was sent off as a junior negotiator, to learn from the elders who had worked deals with the bloody western humans. Two circles ago, at the age of 25, she was promoted from her position as a junior negotiator and given greater responsibilities, which she has carried out well. She is being courted by a fellow negotiator from the 8th White Tent named Drezlig . Personality - Shinnpa has alot of potential to become withdrawn and introverted when things are going bad. This usually happens after the distressing event, not during, so rarely affects her work. She still idolizes the officers of the Krugel army and h as some trouble talking to them on a normal level. This makes a nice contrast with her negotiating, where she is very professional. There probably is not an Azcan she has worked with who thinks her socially inept, which is in fact the case. Shinnpa's greatest joys come from when she succeeds in her duties and from participating in the tournaments. Appearance - Shinnpa is slightly above-average in the looks department and prides herself on her appearance. Most important to her is that she appears calm and in control, neat and professional, as she realizes appearance influences the opposing sides' v iew of you and your skills. She stands 5'3" and is in below-average shape and health for a Krugel, as she is not actively involved in the military life. Combat Notes - AC 10 (no armor,DEX penalty);hp 10;At 1;D 1-8 (sword); save Kr 2;ML 11;AL L;S 9,I 12,W 16,D 7,Co 12,Ch 14. Languages: Krugel,Neathar. General Skills:Riding (Horse) (D), Knowledge (Azcan Culture) (I),Det. Deception (W),Knowledge (Azcan Lan guage) (I) Briggin History - Born 40 circles ago in the 2nd Purple Cactus, Briggin took after his father, becoming the town's smith after the elder's passing. Briggin is somewhat of a recluce, spending almost all his times in his smithy alone. His work consists of craftin g weapons of all sorts for the Krugel army, mainly for the 11th Black Thorn. His work, while not that of a master, is of high quality, and is appreciated by the Krugel military command. Personality - As mentioned, Briggin is a loner, spending his days working in the shop, whether filling a supply order or not. He is very shy inside, and prefers to be left with his tools than to being out and about. The townspeople wonder at his isolate d behavior, but rarely comment on it. Appearance - Briggin is rather large, standing 5'10" and weighing 220 pounds. He is fairly strong, though much of that weight comes from fat as well. His appearance is sloppy and is never in fashion, if ever such clothes were. He bears a long scar acro ss his left cheek, which he will not discuss at all. He wouldn't fit well into a crowd even if he ever was out of his home. Combat Notes - AC 9 (no armor);hp 6;At 1;D1-6+1 (war hammer);save Kr 1;ML 9;AL N;S 15,I 8,W 9, D 10, Co 13, Ch 9. Languages:Krugel, Neather. General Skills: Riding (Horse) (D), Craftsman (Smithing) (I+1), Singing (Ch) (Note-while a good singer, Briggin d oes not prefer that others know of this skill, which he views as feminine and contradictory with his self-image. Briggin often sings while he works) Trull History - The son of a Kapittan, the very most was what was always expected from Trull. And basically, he has lived up to expectations. As a youth, he got a vision (or so he says) from Karaash, and he was soon apprenticed to the local shaman. He learne d quickly, showing talent, while still succeeding in his general studies. At the youngage of 16, he was inducted into the army, and has advanced in the ranks to the point where he heads the town of the 19th Black Vulture. Now, after 24 circles, he is on e of the promising young talents of the Krugel army. Personality - Trull is a very loyal servant of the Krugel army. He has nothing but respect for his countrymen and women and treats his soldiers and townspeople very well. Despite being younger than most, he is looked up to and respected. He is insightfu l, efficient and brave. If he has a flaw, it's that he thinks he has to better. No matter what he does, he believes he should have done more. He believes he's destined for greatness and allows himself no room for error. If he makes a mistake, he'll be beating himself up about it for weeks after. He thinks everybody else expects the world of him, also, so doesn't really understand the amount of respect he gets. He thinks he's failing while everybody around him think he's doing great. And what's wo rse is that his success has kept him isolated from most Krugel. He looks back with joy at the days of his youth before the vision. His lone sources of comfort are a female Krugel named Likkip, who loves him dearly and wishes he'd stop having such high s tandards of which he will always fall short and his brother Durwig, who has known the same pressures from a stern, officative father. Having his father as a superior officer does not help. Appearance - Trull stands 5'8", is of solid build, and by Krugel stands, pretty handsome. He wears fancy officer's clothing at all times, neat and orderly. At times of war, he wears a set of chain mail that has been in the family for many years. Combat Notes - AC 4 (chain and shield);hp 26;At 1;D 2d4+1 (mace;skilled);Save Kr 6;ML 11;Al L;S 14, I 13, W 16, D 9, Co 12, Ch 17. Languages:Krugel, Neathar. General Skills:Riding (Horse) (D), Military Tactics (I), Danger Sense (W), Honor Karaash (W), Le adership (Ch+1) Spells per day - 2/2/1 K'pak History - Oh, what a bright future K'pak may have had. She seemed to be on a path to be the perfect loyal, tough, brutal Red soldier. All indications for future success looked good for the brutish orc. That is, until an Antalian repeatedly crushed her left arm with a hammer during her first raid, when the Antalians had stood strong against the oncoming Krugel banditos. Since that fight, she has been unable to contribute much to the Krugel and has become a public charge to be cared for by the 33rd Red Coin. Personality - For this formerly macho Krugel female, her ego was bruised as badly as her body. She cannot abide by the fact that she no longer is a capable soldier. She hates the pity. She hates the inability to put up a good fight. She hates Antalian s, of course, with a vengeance. She practices combat with one useable arm, and swears that someday those who hurt her shall pay. Many of the other troops in the 33rd Red Coin consider her a bit of a nutcase. Appearance - K'pak stands 5'6" and is of good build. Having been very muscular before, she is still capable of some strength, despite having the use of just one arm. Her other arm, permanently battered and bruised, is covered at all times. She most cer tainly does not want outsiders to know of her limitations. She would be of average beauty, if not for the ruined arm. Combat Notes -AC 9 (no armor);hp 5;At 0;D 0;Save Kr 1;ML 9;AL N;S 7, I 8, W 6, D 10, Co 12, Ch 8. Languages:Krugel, Neathar. General Skills: Riding (Horse) (D), Bravery (W+1), Endurance (Co) Libra (Sept. 23-Oct. 23) Major achievements, new friends and a previously unexplored way to make a lot of money will come to alot of people today, but unfortunately you aren't one of them. Consider not getting out of bed today - from "A Realist's Horoscope" by Andy Rooney *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #123 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:53:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #124 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 23d647c6cc3a18440719b7d38d2c8ddc mystara-digest Thursday, February 26 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 124 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeons and Democracy [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (still long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. [none] Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:19:31 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara yes, there was a TSR brown book called blackmoor, c. 1975, to be used with the original D&D brown boxed set. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>You know, DA3 The City of the gods, which detailed the Beagle, always struck me as being very reminiscent of S3. I often wondered if, just as Temple of the Frog was adapted, perhaps S3 was totally rewritten to fit the campaign. Perhaps the total rewrite was necessary because S3 is a well known module and very few people are aware of the original Temple of the Frog. >>For those who don't know, the temple was detailed in the long lost rulebook: Blackmoor. It is not-quite identical to the adventure presented in DA2. >Which Blackmoor rulebook is that? I have the Judge's Guild Blackmoor supplement, and there is nothing on the Temple of the Frog in that. Was there another Blackmoor supplement? >------------------------ >Cthuludrew, the Great Old One >(aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." >URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:28:29 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Lille My wrote: >At 03:28 25-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >>I know this was an old thread but I think it is relevant to future history in Mystara. >>2) MAGIC! Why would I want to make a gun if I could cast a fireball? The only ones who would bother with chemicals are alchemists who are usually magic-users of some kind. "OOOH! I just developed a powder which explodes!" "Big Deal! Here's a Lightning Bolt for you!" >For those who can't use magic and it can be a nasty surprise for the archmage who has all he defense spells against magic up to suddenly realize that he forgot all about firepower. Also why not use it when you are out of spells? Well, this is just my opinion but, since a non-magical arrow does 1d8 damage a bullet shouldn't do much more. While good to take out those pesky 1-3 level mages, they're just not realistic unless you ADD to the standard AD&D rules (critical hits, etc) which someone has recently said something about having too many tables. When fighting an archmage (assuming 9th level with 27-54 hp) that's going to take at least 4 men (with great shots) to kill him and hope that he doesn't have a wand of fire nearby. A single fighter with a sword could waste the same mage with under 4 hits (assuming he's not killed in the attempt either but he doesn't have to reload). If you make guns realistic (a shot to the head should probably kill most) then they become game unbalancing simply because a 0 level NPC group of 5 men could waste a mid-level party with little problem. If you like guns in the setting though I say go for it but to be realistic you're going to end up playing WW1 battles. After all, weren't guns first produced made to kill another human being and not animal hunting? I could be wrong. BTW, a rock to the head works pretty well when you're out of spells also ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:37:16 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos At 17.28 25/02/98 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: <<< Certainly in Darokin or Vestland for example, paladins would indeed be rare. >> >Or of a complete different style... The Dragonlord trilogy mentions Darokin Knights. Maybe they were sort of paladins. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:50:15 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 17.57 25/02/98 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: OOn Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>Ok so by my way of thinking if culture A completely anihilates culture B then culture A would start behaving like culture B right? At least in that particular geographical location? >Not quite. For one thing, culture A could never completely annihilate culture B; some remnant of culture B would always survive, somehow (culture A quits the field, culture B relocates, etc.) I would say: culture B is relocated somewhere else by Immortals, or culture A is forced to leave the field by the Immortals... A friend of mine says that it's like when you have a cursed sword and you cannot abandon it. If you leave that weapon at home than you go away and you're forced to fight, that weapon will get back in your hands. Useful, isn't it? :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:53:54 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 20.18 25/02/98 -0500, Daly wrote: >Ah, so if the Alphatians wished to take advantage of such a system they could war on the surface world without fear of ever being defeated (not that they would, or that they have ever feared being defeated!) Actually they could be defeated. They just cannot be annihilated. At the end of the war (if they're defated, that is) there would be left just 2 Alphatians: a man and a woman (Eriadna and Haldemar :) - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:53:20 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >Hand of Vecna?! Not to mention you'd be wiping out the ruling class of Glantri! Talk about drastic action; even Synn hasn't done that much. I don't know about making Vecna into Thanatos, however. What about using Brannart? He would seem to fit pretty closely, wouldn't he? After all, he's already a lich. I thought about that one, but Vecna is supposed to be a demigod- or in this case, a minor Immortal. Thanatos probably isn't the best choice, you're right. As a first gut reaction, this is my proposal- Brannart gets the Hand and Eye of ? (the Immortal we choose to replace Vecna- Eye... Arik, maybe? The Hand and Eye of Arik?). The other Princes of Glantri, at the behest of Jaggar (or whichever one you want to leave alive) go to investigate the sudden block on divination magics, etc. that seems to be centered on Klantyre. The find Brannart with the Hand and Eye. They die. Brannart begins to go about rounding up followers, under the bidding of the Hand and Eye (though thinking it's his own will). When the adventurers finally catch up with him, the avatar of the Immortal (I'll just call him Arik) catches up with them, kills Brannart, and reclaims his Hand and Eye. At that point, the avatar goes to the Broken Lands, and the Guardian Mesa (from M4: Twilight Calling) in order to summon Arik's followers from across time so that he can become a Hierarch (or, if you prefer, so he tries to rescue his Immortal form from whatever prison dimension it was banished to). The adventurers intercede, etc. The replacement for Iuz, who tries to stop Vecna, should probably be Alphaks. >Even better, what about Halzunthram, the Alphatian wizard who had tried to take over Glantri a long time ago? He could have faked his death and become a lich. Then he comes back, and he's really, really, pissed... That's actually pretty good. Halzunthram could be Vecna, and his follower Kas could be replaced with Lord Alexander Glantri. You'd have to modify the history slightly (of course, you're doing that anyway), but it would work. In which case Halzunthram is attempting to summon his followers from the past (730 AC) in order to fully establish his Immortal worshippers. And Alphaks would naturally be the enemy of Halzunthram, a hated Alphatian. That would probably work out even bettern than my Arik/Alphaks scenario above. Hmm... Now we just decide which Princes to kill off... Brannart (slain by Halzunthram), Virayana, Carlotina, Krinagar, Haaskinz, Carnelia, Vlaardoen, du Marais, and... umm... maybe Morphail? Leaving Jaggar pretty well in charge of Glantri. :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:58:40 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeons and Democracy At 09:06 PM 2/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >At 22:24 23-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >>At 06:54 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>*gulp* >>>Some suggest that democracies cannot last any longer that that. >>>*gulp* >>Britain has been a democracy for a long, long time, far more than 200 years, monarchy notwithstanding. I'll defer to the Brits on the list, but wasn't Magna Carta (1215 AD) what started the whole thing? In 1832 the Reform Act gave most members of the Middle Class the right to vote. >The Dansih monarchy is older than that. We count back to Harald Blåtand (Harald Bluetooth), that's somewhere around 900 - 1000, can't recall it precisely. I would never argue with a danish, but Denmark has been a constitutional monarchy since its Constitution was written in 1953. However, this thread is getting less and less Mystara related. Right now it is related only in the vaguest sense of achieving an understanding of socio/political movements through history. Since governments are ever-changing I do believe this should be reflected in our fantasy world. Once I get to WotI (many many years from now) I may have Thyatis break up and in a lame attempt to hold onto colonial power attempt to take over Karameikos. Then Karameikos might just find itself the seat of a dying empire...history repeats itself... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:18:46 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Galwylin pontificated: >Someone pick a spot. Get ten people to design a level each and one person to tie it all together. If you have seen Castle Greyhawk, you probably wouldn't make that suggestion... - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 14:27:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) >If you make guns realistic (a shot to the head should probably kill most) then they become game unbalancing simply because a 0 level NPC group of 5 men could waste a mid-level party with little problem. That is the whole point of guns: they neutralize skill, armor, and distance. A longbow or sword can kill just as easily as a gun, but you need a *lot* more training to use it... and your opponent can protect himself with armor and defensive training. A gun blows right through armor (effective AC 10), and defensive training is of no use against a supersonic projectile (effectively 1 hit point). Personal toughness doesn't help when you brain is leaking out a hole. Introducing guns is going to drastically change the flavor and balance of the game. Armor and swords will quickly become obsolete. Cannons will make castles obsolete. Guns will replace Magic Missiles and Fireballs for the same reason they replaced longbows: because you can teach a person to fire a gun in about 5 minutes, as opposed to 5 years to fire a magic missile. As soon as technology produces semi-auto and full-auto weapons, almost all magical attacks become obsolete. >If >you like guns in the setting though I say go for it but to be realistic you're going to end up playing WW1 battles. Yep. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:50:02 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (still long) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 Gordon McCormick wrote: II mentioned in a post earlier how I found it interesting how much the game system does affect the campaign setting. If only because the rules of the game are the "rules" of the world in question, for instance the vampires of D&D are different from the ones in Vampire (WW, Storyteller system) not just because of the differences in what they are in the game, but also because of the rules. Yes, I know what you mean here. There are certain things about D&D rules that have definitely defined the parameters of the setting for a lot of us - like levels and Immortality, character classes and racial restrictions (I remember a post a while ago about Elven clerics in Mystara, a thread started by me). However, you can change most of the things round about without spoiling the setting. A good example of this is the D&D to AD&D conversion, even though it continues to annoy some people (myself included). The levels system is different, but not so radically as to ruin the world (pretty close if you ask me, but you didn't). The stats are essentially the same. The only major major problem is Immortals, but that too can be solved relatively easily by using the WotI rules converted to AD&D. So while I agree that some aspects of the rules are central to the setting, it is my opinion that a large proportion of the rules could be replaced without compromising the setting. >The most graphic example of this is the character class and level. You know when playing D&D that there wont be guys with chainmail hurling lightning bolts, and that if someones 25th level they may be tougher to kill than dragons. This is true, but you can prevent this sort of player knowledge simply by restricting their knowledge of the rules system. Incidentally, this is one of the main reasons I am going to change the rules in my campaign - - so that the system, which the players are far too familiar with, stops obscuring the setting. >Hmmm, I'm not sure I'm getting the point I'm trying to make across, but I Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:53:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #124 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 23d647c6cc3a18440719b7d38d2c8ddc >do think that the rules affect the game world. But then again, I ignore most of the rules :) Ignoring rules that you don't think you need is a very good thing to do. In other words, if you can handle a situation without the rules, and without your players hitting you over the head with the rulebook (ouch), everything is fine. Unfortunately with players like mine who know most or even all of the rules, this is hard to do without disrupting play. >Umn, I'm gonna waffle on a bit too, sorry :) :-) >I gave up on working out XP for the PC's a long time ago, it started to take too long, and well, I like my PC's to go up levels faster than average (2 to 3 games a level ideally, sometimes as much as 1 per level if I want to move things along). This sounds somewhat familiar - as far as I'm concerned, the rate of advancement should depend on how advanced the characters are and also how often you play. So once players stop acting their characters like "newbies" and start to get some respect from NPCs, it is clearly time they should be getting somewhere level-wise. Also, you have to keep that carrot dangling in front of their faces, otehrwise they will lose interest. And if you don't play often, that can make slow advancement a game-killer. >I stopped playing D&D when I left school. In Scotland in our final year at school we usually do Sixth Year Study exams which have no relevance to getting into Uni, so it was basically a skive, a full year to play about with D&D and do WotI :) Fun stuff. Then along came Uni, much splitting up of old group and playing Shadowrun, Vampire and other more "modern" games. Most of the more modern games have far simpler systems, they try and place the emphasis on Role playing, the main books are often as not descriptions of the campaign world rather than a rule book. Makes me wonder why AD&D needs 3 basic rule books and that's without a campaign setting! Wow, I didn't know there was another Scot on the list. :-) Strangely enough my Sixth Year involved very little D&D-playing (for no reason I could work out then or now). Just one major adventure about beholders and not much else. (Not that I did much work either, although I somehow managed to still get two A's despite writing a 4000 word dissertation in one night!) Anyway... I agree AD&D seems to be a little rules-heavy. What with all of the new "option" books, it's getting a bit silly (although the High- level Campaigns one is interesting for Mystara DMs). I used to think that the D&D rules were fine, but lately they seem to be restricting play more than helping it. >So now that I've restarted a D&D campaign I find the rules get in the way a lot. There are so many numbers, so much to work out so I tend to just ignore big chunks of it. OTOH I don't have any adventures where the PC's run into monsters much, most of my games are set in Glantri with the PC's as Private Investigators. Allows lots of plot to go on, but not that much monster bashing. Yes, my games are tending to go this way too - I haven't done a dungeon crawl for quite a while. When combat does occur, we usually end up disappointed by the over-familiarity of the dice rolls. >So when the PC's get to the end of an adventure where they've caught the bad guy, figured out the were-wolf butler did it and not had any fighting going on at all (except maybe to capture the butler) how do you assign XP? A don't think defeating a were-wolf and getting 100XP (or whatever) would really be that good a solution, so generally I make up a value based on how fun the adventure was for everyone. And then don't tell the PC's anyway but just tell them what level they are :) Sounds good to me. This is basically what I am going to do in my next few adventures, once I get my campaign going again. I'm also considering changing the skill system to make it more flexible and fun, and so that I can add experience when players use their skills in an adventure as I see fit. More on this soon. Thorf ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:49:57 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 Daly wrote: WWhile you had some generally good remarks about computer roleplaying simulations being inferior to real roleplaying games, I have to disagree with you on Ultima Online. The game was set up the way it was on purpose to discourage shallow character building and encourage role building. However, in the end, no game mechanic will do this. Only the players can make the decision to roleplay. Which I would argue is beginning to happen in UO. Unfortunately, there is no plot to encourage the characters to grow as characters rather than just as statistics. I agree it is possible for players who make a concerted effort to turn it into some strange (and story-less) form of roleplaying. As you say, the problem is that computers cannot formulate plots, and there are just too many players for a real person to do it all. >And I am not just saying this cause DD is a personal friend...;) DD? Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:11:41 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) hey you faggot computer nerd... why don't you go and bother someone else's class, you cock sucker shit pickin lil bitch.... BTW learn how to logout you dumb fuck... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:49:26 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 =?iso-8859-1?q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >Someone told me that Gerg Stafford, President of Chaosium, said that roleplaying games have nothing to do with Computer RPGs. Roleplaying Games are a social activity. And I agree. Computer games can be fun. I just killed Diablo in that game the other day. But it has nothing to do with roleplating games. D&D and the like may have elements similar to those games. But that is only because these were created from boardgames. some of my friends argue that D&D is nothing but a boardgame without the board. I think that depends to a great extent upon the players. However, experience points for killing and levels itself tends to have an effect on the Game. RoleMaster is even worse IMO. I mean Character improvement is one of the motivating factors in a game. And that the only way you can do this is to kill some monster (Bigger the better) tends to affect the way people play. I remember the first adventures in a RuneQuest campaign that I'm involved in right now. None of which included any hitrolls being made. That would have been totally boring in a D&D game wouldn't it? I certainly agree computer games can be fun. The thing is, with multiplayer functions in computer games like Diablo, people seem to be deluding themselves into thinking they are roleplaying. I know this is not always the case, but it is the case with my friends. Anyhow, you are also correct, I think, that games like D&D depend a lot on the players. And XP/stat-building doesn't seem to help to encourage roleplaying, at least in players who are used to rolling dice and gaining stats. As to your last question, I would have to disagree. More precisely, it depends on what type of adventure you are running - after all, some adventures involve a lot of investigating but very little swordplay. I ran a murder investigation in Thyatis recently in which there was only one encounter, at the very end. >Anyway, when it comes to games like Ultima Online, I guess they are like MUDs and I haven't really decided whether that is a social activity. Not to the same extent as roleplaying games anyway. Doesn't mean they can't be fun I suppose, but comparing them doesn't make much sense. I know what you mean - the only reason I am comparing them is that my players seem to be making a decision to play these sorts of games rather than roleplaying. Worse, some of them get far more excited by them than by the prospect of sitting down to roleplay for a while. I wouldn't mind if what they did wasn't so mindless - standing in a training room hitting a dummy by clicking the mouse over and over is not exactly my idea of fun. I do realise that I have fallen into the trap of blaming one thing for the lack of interest in another. It used to be CCGs peole blamed, which is ironic since I always thought that CCGs had no effect on roleplaying. I guess it's simply a matter of what disrupts your own group. Computer "roleplaying" certainly has disrupted my group a fair amount, but then CCGs didn't much at all. Hmm. >>Does anyone agree that plot and character building through experience rather than XP is what makes Mystara great? >yes! you can earn XP in any world. Why would the setting matter at all? That is very well put. I showed that answer to one of my players, and I think he's going to put a bit more time into proper roleplaying now. :-) >>Does it really matter what system you use as long as it works for you and your group? >No. But the system needs to be modified to fit into the setting. AD&D could need some modifications to fit better with Mystara. Fitting Mystara to AD&D as some game designers seemed to try, only removes interesting details from the setting. Yes, I agree with that. >>In any case, the whole point of this post is that I think roleplay is far superior to the "roleplay" in games such as Ultima Online. If you have no story, effectively no setting (not quite true, but the setting isn't exactly fascinating), and all you have to do is press a button and watch a badly animated sprite to gain "experience", in other words if you don't use your imagination at all, how can this possibly be fun? >It depends on who you are and who your friends are, but I am of the same opinion as you here. Superior is a strong word. But totally different. Right, it does. BTW, I only meant superior in a very precise context, that is that roleplaying is superior to "roleplaying", ie that computer games do not allow you to roleplay in the way we define the word. >Yes. I think this is especially a problem for the xD&D games. Quarrels about interpretations of spells, and Alignments is one of the reasons I don't play AD&D anymore. Also the way the game treats monsters and magic removes much of the mystery from the setting. They are recuced to numbers. And with no variations. I all groups of players should change the set of rules now and then. When I started using GURPS, my PCs encountered a group of Orcs. Now they didn't know they were orcs (though they suspected it) and they had no idea how dangerous these creatures were. Which they wouldn't have in the real world either. Yes! This is exactly the sort of change I am trying to work in my games. In my most recent adventure, for example, the players were fighting first ghouls then goblins. The ghouls had them terrified, because they didn't know what ghouls looked like (having never had them described before). Of course, they worked out by the time the paralyzation started taking effect... :-) >The xD&D magic system is the most pathetic one I've ever seen. It completely destroys any creativity from the players of spellcasters and it takes away the magic of magic. Sorry about this very IMO emotional outburst. I fear you might be right, although I have no idea how to improve it without changing the entire nature of magic in the setting. >Dont know if you're looking for rules variants to xD&D or a new set of rules altogether. Try GURPS if you like. Its not a perfect system, but it works pretty well, in addition to being fairly easy to convert to from xD&D.. I think I'm really looking for just some new innovations to change the way my players view the world (that is, turn all those statistics into brush strokes ;-). Beyond changing the experience system as I have mentioned, I intend to use a new skill system similar to Star Wars RGP's d6 system. I would really love to revamp the magic system too, but I'm not sure how. Any suggestions? Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:31:02 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. At 05:18 PM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >Galwylin pontificated: >>Someone pick a spot. Get ten people to design a level each and one person to tie it all together. >If you have seen Castle Greyhawk, you probably wouldn't make that suggestion... I'm baffled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:49:52 -0500 From: Daly Subject: [none] There are 3 basic different types of language in the RW. 1) Placement: Where a sentence derives meaning from the placement of words (for example the sentence "The dog bit the boy." is different in meaning than "The boy bit the dog.") 2) Enclitic: Meaning is expressed through the addition of prefixes or suffixes (Latin is a good example) 3) Tonal: Words can change meaning drastically by changing the tone with which they are spoken (I believe Chinese is an example). All of these can be considered elements of any given language, for instance Latin was mainly enclitic but there was a certain degree of placement as well. Ok, so why do I bring up grammar 101? Well, I am trying to challenge my own assumptions here. What other methods of spoken language could there be? Surely the countries we are most familiar with tend to move along normal lines. But perhaps there are other elements (maybe psychic?) in the Alphatian language for example... For that matter what other communication types might there be? I'll bet treants have their own non-spoken language. Perhaps they communicate with each other by chemicals spread through the air that take days or weeks for the "hearer" to translate. The party of adventurers approaches Hroom the treant for it is only he who can tell them where to find the golden golem. "Shh." Hroom says with irritation, "I am speaking Magwa." Minutes pass in silence. Then hours. The adventurers get fed up with waiting and demand to know how much longer it will take. "Oh I don't know. What day is this?" Then think of the Lupin. His sense of smell is so strong that he can tell a given race just by sniffing. The heroic Lupin adventurer watches the Lupin lady stride toward him. There is no fear on her. Her expression says nothing and she offers no words. But he can tell...he can sense her excited joy... What other possibilities are there? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:56:00 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) At 03:11 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Somebody using Matthew Levy's account wrote: >hey you [...] computer nerd... >[...remainder snipped for reasons of taste...] Before anyone gets annoyed at Mathew, I'd like to point out that it looks like someone has used his mail account after he neglected to logout. It happens to the best of us. Boy I *do* hate people who do stuff like take advantage of someone else's temporary forgetfulness. It just shows a complete lack of maturity. And coming from a (most likely) college/univerisy student, its just plain sad. Mathew, you have my sympathies. Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #124 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, February 27 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 125 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Ranks within Heldannic Knights Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeons and Democracy Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Drakes everywhere Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins [MYSTARA] - Language types [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - Languages. Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia [MYSTARA] - Re: Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:29:18 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Hi Glen, >>I converted the Lendor-Series (two modules) into Mystara and put the described landscape onto Gapton in the Minrothad Guilds. >Which modules are these? I've never heard of them. It is "L1 - Lvls 2-4 Encounter on Bone-Hill" (in German: Begegnung auf dem Knochenhuegel) and "L2 - Lvls 2-5 Tracing the assassin (in German: Auf der Spur des Attentaeters). They are After A1to A4 and just before U1 to U3 on the back of the module. Need more help? Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:29:18 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ranks within Heldannic Knights Perhaps this will do: >From: Andrew Morrow >Subject: [MYSTARA] - Ranks within Heldannic Knights >The Heldannic Knights, on top of being very militaristic (obviously) strike me as one of the most hierarchical orders on Mystara. However, other than the highest levels, the exact composition of the hierarchy has never been detailed. Maybe one of our Germanic scholars could provide appropriate ranks and Hattian sounding names, to help us place HK characters within the hierarchy. Knights-Militant Master of the Temple Seneschal Marshal Commander Drapier Commander of a House Commander of Knights Knight Brothers another suggestion: Knights-Militant Sergeants of the Covenant Turcoplier Master of Novices Under-Marshal Standard Bearer Sergeant-brother Rural brother Hospital attendant Servant brother Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:31:30 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins At 01:17 PM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Compare the Klingons in the classic Star Trek with the Klingons in TNG and DS9. >Sorry, I do not see a connection between the Klingons and the Heldannic Knights at all. I know the inspiration for the plotlines in "The Princess Ark" were taken from Star Trek but I believe the relevance ends there. I think the point of this is that the Klingons as originally portrayed are nasty people who love starting wars, but in TNG and DS9 their culture was developed and they became three-dimensional. The same could apply to Heldann; our first view of them (Princess Ark) shows them to be scum-sucking Haldemar haters. But with some work and time, they could be developed into a three-dimensional culture with both good and bad qualities, like every other culture in a Gazetteer (except Karameikos, of course, which is totally awesome and doesn't need to be improved). Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:31:38 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeons and Democracy At 09:06 PM 2/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >The Dansih monarchy is older than that. We count back to Harald Blåtand (Harald Bluetooth), that's somewhere around 900 - 1000, can't recall it precisely. But how long have you been a democracy? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:31:32 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in At 11:10 AM 2/26/98 PST, you wrote: >>Yes! I have heard of that 10 level dungeon and am incredibly intrigued. When someone else on the list mentioned a new boxed set I thought to myself "Self, wouldn't it be AWESOME if they came out with a super dungeon for Mystara?" >Wouldn't it be awesome if a group on this list got together and designed a 10-level dungeon crawl set in Mystara? Something really big, comparable maybe to undermountain. *That* would attract the attention of a lot of AD&D players to Mystara... if you want to win converts, you could liberally sprinkle it with references to other parts of Mystara. A group effort is definitely the way to go; it would take way too much time for a single person to do it. Where should it be set? I would vote for either Karameikos (my favorite) or Glantri, since they are the only two parts of Mystara with AD&D information. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:39:12 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara At 01:29 AM 2/27/98 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Glen, Hello. >It is "L1 - Lvls 2-4 Encounter on Bone-Hill" (in German: Begegnung auf dem Knochenhuegel) and "L2 - Lvls 2-5 Tracing the assassin (in German: Auf der Spur des Attentaeters). They are After A1to A4 and just before U1 to U3 on the back of the module. Aah. I have downloaded L1 from the TSR AD&D OOP section, but they haven't done L2 (nor are they likely to, apparently). >Need more help? Wizzard No, thank you. I'm heavily medicated now. The striped gerbils have left. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:20:20 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Galwylin pontificated: >>Someone pick a spot. Get ten people to design a level each and one person to tie it all together. >If you have seen Castle Greyhawk, you probably wouldn't make that suggestion... Yikes! I had forgotten about that (and I own it!). Perhaps to go about it a different way, get someone to decide on the tone of the dungeon and to get ten people to design the levels WITH the overseer to make sure that it is a workable addition to the original idea. The overseer would decide who is at the bottom level, why they have this large dungeon and what they are hoping to accomplish or keep hidden. Just for an idea that might throw players off... have the creator of the dungeon keeping something or someone from entering into the world and he uses the monsters to keep out everyone that might release this old evil into the world. I like ideas like this because it throws the good/evil axis into the grey area (Yea, right. You're trying to protect the world by keeping all these monsters here) and it helps shows that good isn't always easy to recognize. Also, you'd have to use neutral monsters. What do you think? Have I been reading this screen too long? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 16:53:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) >I certainly agree computer games can be fun. The thing is, with multiplayer functions in computer games like Diablo, people seem to be deluding themselves into thinking they are roleplaying. I know this is not always the case, but it is the case with my friends. Or perhaps roleplaying was never a major interest for a lot of people. D&D was originally designed as a game. You started at point A (first level) and move to point Z (retirement). Along the way you dealt with challenges. If you died you were "out" and had to start again -- and there were lots of ways you could die suddenly. Most scenarios were dungeon crawls, not all that much different from a boardgame. There is much in D&D to appeal to the average non-roleplaying gamer. Such games gradually developed into true roleplaying, but there was always a large group of people who just enjoyed the game itself. Such people play a game like Diablo and find it offers exactly what they enjoyed most about D&D: a satisfying challenge, with lots of cool imagery and macho action, and a chance to boast of your exploits later. I rather suspect that Real Roleplaying actually appeals to a smaller subset of gamers than most people think. I have to admit I enjoy a grueling, detailed dungeon crawl as much as anyone, just because it is an interesting exercise. I also enjoy "roleplaying" but not for its own sake, and I'm not into "deep roleplay;" for me it is more an opportunity to recreate and play with my favorite archetypes and storylines, as well as an interesting and intricate simulation. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:25:09 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) this is exactly what did happen. this has been a mega annoying day. some asshole self important professor ran me out of the computer lab because he was holding a class (there was not even anyone waiting for a seat) ... i was in the middle of writing an email to daly and he wouldn't even give me a minute to finish, just stood there saying "you on the end get the hell out" and when i told him i needed to finish logging out he said "just turn it off" - well at this point i was pissed off enough that i must not have logged out properly and now i get this shit. when i find this fucked i think i just may beat his face in. *rant complete* sorry, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >At 03:11 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Somebody using Matthew Levy's account wrote: >>hey you [...] computer nerd... >>[...remainder snipped for reasons of taste...] >Before anyone gets annoyed at Mathew, I'd like to point out that it looks like someone has used his mail account after he neglected to logout. It happens to the best of us. >Boy I *do* hate people who do stuff like take advantage of someone else's temporary forgetfulness. It just shows a complete lack of maturity. And coming from a (most likely) college/univerisy student, its just plain sad. >Mathew, you have my sympathies. >Jenni >-- >Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:36:43 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Knights of the Round Table. In a message dated 98-02-26 12:15:01 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >Besides, give Mallory a break! He was trying to get out of prison at the >time...:) You definitely should not blame Malory for creating Galahad -- he didn't create Galahad at all. Galahad was the creation of an anonymous French romance author who compiled the extensive _Vulgate_ cycle that was Malory's main source. Malory actually pruned the Grail section down considerably. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:45:49 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-24 23:11:04 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >Incidentally, I find it hard to believe that in the thousands of years since >the Hollow World was first settled, no mages have learned any of those 'forgotten' spells. 95% of wizards of 9th level or higher know Fireball and >Lightning Bolt. But of all the wizards that ever got transported to the HW, >NONE of them remembers or even knew these spells?! Come on, let's get real. >The only way this could happen is if the Immortals wiped the memory of all those 'forgotten' spells from all the name-level wizards' memories. Soall the Nithian wizards, the Azcan wizards, the Milenian wizards, the Icevale elves, the Antalian wizards, the Tanagoro wizards, etc. all lost these spells because of Immortal tampering. That is not the only way. An alternative explanation is that those spells were indeed unknown to all of the cultures that were transported to the Hollow World. That would require that the unknown spells be invented some time after BC 100, when the Milenians were transported to the Hollow World. Later arrivals could lack the spells as follows: AC 50: The Kubitts were transported to the Hollow World soon after their creation; they did not have time to learn much magic. AC 500, 700: Korotiku moved pirates from a variety of cultures to the Hollow World. Since no whole cultures were moved, he may have been "persuaded" by other Immortals to leave the powerful wizards among them behind. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:45:57 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Drakes everywhere In a message dated 98-02-26 08:26:09 EST, amorrow@plato.wadham.ox.ac.uk writes: >Some time ago I was working on developing mandrake and coldrake character >classes based on the woodrakes in PC1. (I was also thinking about an Elemental Drake class, but never made any progress with that). A question came up as to the exact nature of the drakes transformations into demi>humans. Should they be considered demi humans of the same level with all the same abilities as the form they are mimicking? A lot depends on which rule set you intend to use. AD&D would work better, as it allows demi-human Thieves -- to all appearances, that is what Drakes in demi-human form are. As fairies, they cannot be Priests, and the description of Drakes in the Rules Cyclopedia and in PC 1 seems to preclude them from being Warriors. And their strongly anti-magical nature (with immunity to spells of level 1-4) would argue against them being Wizards. So I would probably treat them as single-classed Thieves with high level limits and perhaps (to balance out their special abilities) a hefty XP penalty. If you wish to use D&D, then it is a fairly straightforward matter to extrapolate colddrake and mandrake stats from those of the wooddrake in PC 1. As for racial abilities and limitations, I would only use those that are an obvious result of the chosen form. Meddling is not such an example, but it could be simulated by the colddrake learning the Fantasy Physics skill multiple times -- certainly he would be able to spend enough time among Gnomes to do so. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:45:54 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins In a message dated 98-02-25 16:26:39 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >Galahad and Arthur himself are paladins, as is Sir Percival. But that's >nearly it for the paladins of the Round Table. And Arthur retains his Paladin abilities only because of a special dispensation as ruler of Britain. Certainly if we went by his personal conduct, he would have been stripped of his paladinhood early on. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:46:01 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: [MYSTARA] - Language types In a message dated 98-02-26 19:06:00 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >There are 3 basic different types of language in the RW. >1) Placement: Where a sentence derives meaning from the placement of words (for example the sentence "The dog bit the boy." is different in meaning than "The boy bit the dog.") >2) Enclitic: Meaning is expressed through the addition of prefixes or suffixes (Latin is a good example) >3) Tonal: Words can change meaning drastically by changing the tone with which they are spoken (I believe Chinese is an example). "Tonal" is not distinct from the other types. As I recall, the meaning of a sentence in Chinese is determined primarily by word order, making it a "Placement" based language. The effect of changing the tone of a word is somewhat comparable to that of changing any single sound in an English word -- in most cases you will get a completely different word, not a grammatical conversion. For example, change the "a" in "bag" to a "u" -- the meaning of whatever sentece you meant to use "bag" in will have changed to something nonsensical. I am told that a similar effect will occur in Chinese if you get the tones wrong. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:40:38 EST From: Dleggend Subject: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set I was thinking of buying the Immortal Box set and I was wondering if it's worth it. I have the wrath of immortals and I would like to know the differences between the box sets as well as your opinions. Dleggend@aol.com http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:50:37 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) (Thorfinn's comments about CRPGs snipped) While this is a bit off-Mystara-topic, I have to agree. CRPGs are generally just hack-n-slash and not RPGs by any true sense of the term. Then again, seeing as how most are solo-player endeavors, CRPGs can't really be RPGs with any depth. Computers have provided us with one of the best form of roleplay though in my opinion. MUSHes, MUXes and other similar games offer people a chance to create basically any sort of char in any sort of setting, and then interact with other players. Most good MU*s also don't focus at all on combat..some have no combat at all. Too bad Mystara is too big to make a decent MUSH..I just don't think a Specularum MUSH or Thyatis City MUSH would cut it for most Mystara fans. Oh well, end rant :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:01:15 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 10:45 PM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: >That is not the only way. An alternative explanation is that those spells were >indeed unknown to all of the cultures that were transported to the Hollow World. That would require that the unknown spells be invented some time after BC 100, when the Milenians were transported to the Hollow World. BBBBZZZZZZZZ!!! Sorry, but thank you for playing...Blackmoor had all these spells, too, and they were WAY before BC100. So where have all the wizards gone? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:20:41 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Languages. Daly pontificated: >3) Tonal: Words can change meaning drastically by changing the tone with which they are spoken (I believe Chinese is an example). Not quite. Changing the tone generally change the word entirely. Only a very small percentage of words have more than one tones. In Chinese every word is single syllable, and many have same pronounciation, and more are differ just by the tone. Unlike most western languages, Chinese don't have much in terms of verb tense, different noun form for different gender or number. Which is why I have so much problem with subject-verb agreements in my writing. >For that matter what other communication types might there be? In one region of China, there is a trade language based on touch. Two people haggling will hold hands, and I believe communicate by squeeze and touch different place on each other's hand. They generally put a piece of cloth over the hands so no one can tell what they are discussing. I believe there are many places use dances as a form of communication. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:36:39 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?H=3DE5vard_R=3DF8nne_Faanes?=3D pontificated: >(Sorry if my name looks that bisarre to you :) try changing the translation into iso-8859-1) If I knew how... >The campaign I currently GM is pretty low powered at the moment, but that may change. You may have a point concerning wizards. The Wizards will always be limited by their HT score, which limits the number of/power of their spells. However, powerful mages are probaby quite likely to have a wide range of powerstones available which supply extra energy for spell casting.=20 By using powerstones, it would still make them very different from a "similar level" mage in D&D, as a powerful GURPS mage strip of his powerstone will not be that powerful. While a D&D mage, as long as he still have all his spell in memorization, can still wreck an army even if buck naked :). There might also be conversion problem in terms of casting time and power of individual spells. As GURPS spells, as written, are gnereally more time consuming cast and less powerful. >As for 100HP characters, thats a different story. As I see it, HP in the xD&D games is meant to represent a characters fighting ability as well as his life force. A powerful PC in GURPS will have high weapon and shield skills(which means he will have a high parry value) as well as a high HT score. Though the HT will not vary that much. This will not produce the kind of characters who can destroy whole armies. I dont find that too realistic and will probably avoid that IMC. Good point. I haven't thought about it that way. But one thing I like about D&D is you can have legendary characters, one who can rout an army single handly :). - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | UVa, Material Science Dept. |"Earth is too small and fragile a basket IPM Lab | for Mankind to keep all his eggs in." (804) 984-3789 | -- Robert Anson Heinlein *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:42:10 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Daly pontificated: >>If you have seen Castle Greyhawk, you probably wouldn't make that suggestion... >I'm baffled. Castle Greyhawk is a super module TSR put out a while ago. It suppose to be 9 or 10 levels of dungeon below Castle Greyhawk. Each level was written by a different designer, without any connection in between. So it was just a big book of mish mash dungeon levels. It is suppose to be humorous, but I didn't think much of it was that funny. And consider I was expecting a serious module, I was quite disappointed. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:52:07 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Jenni A. M. Merrifield pontificated: >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? If I ever run a campaign in Mystara again, it will probably start around 980 or so, give the character some time to develop while incorporate info given in the Gazetters (Having them meet some of the NPC before they reach their position as described in the Gaz. etc.). Then take them through the WotI as a epic campaign. By the time they big mess is over, they should be about ready to start thinking of immortality. At least that is the plan. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? This can incorporate pre- and post-WotI into one campaign. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: Probably the best thing to do would be a Mystara box set, which contain info about the KW in Gaz era. Each nation would not be as detailed as in Gaz, but enough info given to run the campaign. Thytis, Alphatia, Savage Baronies, etc should probably kept in the background for later supplements. If the box set did well, then they can re-release WotI, and detailed Gaz for each nation after the war (or before the war, with info on what it is like after the war). - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:59:49 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Glen Sprigg wrote: >where have all the wizards gone? Didn't Paula Cole win a Grammy for that song? Back to the topic... well, I would be hesitant to guess where they went but Blackmoor doesn't have to be the only cataclysm to befall Mystara. Just the biggest and most well known but they could have been a time when wizards were hunted to practical extiction during the years without it being documented.. yet. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 1998 01:02:15 -0600 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Mages of Alphatia >>>>>"G" == Glen Sprigg writes: G> At 10:45 PM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: >>That is not the only way. An alternative explanation is that those spells were indeed unknown to all of the cultures that were transported to the Hollow World. That would require that the unknown spells be invented some time after BC 100, when the Milenians were transported to the Hollow World. G> BBBBZZZZZZZZ!!! Sorry, but thank you for playing...Blackmoor had G> all these spells, too, and they were WAY before BC100. So where G> have all the wizards gone? BBBBZZZZZZZZ!!! Sorry, but thank you for playing...Blackmoor had a _lot_ of things that current people don't have. Remember, they _blew up_. Just because they knew some spells doesn't mean anyone else does. Unless you believe in some communal spell consciousness where all mages know all spells.... - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted IBM: Immovable Brash Monolith *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:04:20 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set Dleggend wrote: >I was thinking of buying the Immortal Box set and I was wondering if it's worth it. >I have the wrath of immortals and I would like to know the differences between the box sets as well as your opinions. I have just gotten an Immortal box set and I have to say WotI looks more informative. It offered more information on the Immortals themselves than the Immortal set. Someone said the rules are a little different but I haven't gotten that far into it to compare yet. I paid $5 in shrink-wrap for mine (was a Christmas sale) so it was worth it to me but I was extremely lucky in this case. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #125 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, February 27 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 126 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) [MYSTARA] - [OFF-TOPIC] A Page at Geocities Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone using FUDGE in Mystara? Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone using FUDGE in Mystara? Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Languages. Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Fudge, Q about other RPG systems Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Languages. [none] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D [MYSTARA] - Campaign starting points(was Re: your mail) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Feb 1998 01:10:16 -0600 From: Alan Shutko Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) >>>>>"M" == MichaelX Harvey writes: M> minutes, as opposed to 5 years to fire a magic missile. As soon as M> technology produces semi-auto and full-auto weapons, almost all M> magical attacks become obsolete. Ah, but magical defenses.... protection from normal missiles, anyone? I'll sit around and mass produce amulets of such just to stop guns from having any effect. I'm sure alphatia would have no problems with that.... - -- Alan Shutko - By consent of the corrupted Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:33:24 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Alan Shutko pontificated: >Ah, but magical defenses.... protection from normal missiles, anyone? I'll sit around and mass produce amulets of such just to stop guns from having any effect. I'm sure alphatia would have no problems with that.... Does AD&D have a reverse missile spell? Pretty useful spell for GURPS mage in modern setting... - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:24:39 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? I think the 'canonical' source states that Blackmoor blew up so quickly that the Immortals didn't have time to save it. I might add to that the thought that Immortals wouldn't *want* to preserve the Blackmoor culture (who would want another cataclysm?). I think that they sort of reached a compromise with the Blacklore elves, who have their technology preserved, but made harmless to the rest of the world. As for Alphatia, it wasn't destroyed as fast a Blackmoor (I don't believe a whole continent could sink in two seconds), so Immortals could save most of its people - and there were enough Immortals interested in Alphatia's survival, too. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:48:11 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes (Halflings) At 14:12 26-02-98 -0500, you wrote: >I think the place to begin is in detailing what a given country spends its tax money on. If anyone can add to this list please do so. >THYATIS >Roads >Temples (I think there would be government assist for some temples in addition to the tithe) >Military >Agriculture >Construction >Free bread >Entertainment (Arena, Races) >Salaries (The Emperor as well as the Senate I think would have some sort of stipend) (>Magical Research) Didn't the Roman empire pay for many of these things too? If that is the case, no don't flame me for this, those of you who know something about the Roman empire, I a just asking, it would be interesting to at least know the tax level/system of the Roman Empire for comparison to the Thyatian Empire Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:56:14 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - [OFF-TOPIC] A Page at Geocities Sorry for the off-topic post, but I have a question. Several members of this list have a web page at Geocities, and I was thinking of getting one myself. Apparently, TimesSquare is the correct neighborhood to choose for a RPG page, but when I checked, it had only Arena and Stadium suburbs free. The question to you Geocities experts here is, are those suitable for a RPG page (since most such pages seem to be in basic TimesSquare or Dungeon suburb)? Please reply to me privately. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:49:52 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >BBBBZZZZZZZZ!!! Sorry, but thank you for playing...Blackmoor had all these spells, too, and they were WAY before BC100. So where have all the wizards gone? Nuked themselves? Remember, after Blackmoor, humans returned to Stone Age. Not exactly a lot of wizards there. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:10:00 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone using FUDGE in Mystara? Thus spake MichaelX Harvey (MichaelX_Harvey@ccm.jf.intel.com): >Just wondering if anyone is using FUDGE to run a game set in Mystara. As much as I love OD&D, Fudge has much to recommend it. I think Jamuga Khan summed it up pretty well: "The more complicated you make a thing, the more difficult it becomes to remember and the more you are disappointed in the last." [Snip] >Anyone interested in (or using) this sort of thing? I have started lookign at Fudge of late, mainly for game design ideas, plus perhaps a new science fiction game. While you could replicate the effects of OD&D under Fudge, I'm not sure there is a point. If I use a different system for Mystara, it's because I like the effects of the different system. That said, I have toyed with the idea of using Fudge for my campaigns, mainly for the simplicity. Also, I can have a much more lethal campaign than is normal under AD&D. We can talk about it in private email if you are interested. - -- Glenn Butcher | knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au "One of the things that hamper Linux's climb to world domination is the shortage of bad Computer Role Playing Games, or CRaPGs. No operating system can be considered respectable without one." (Brian O'Donnell , on c.o.l.announce) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:04:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone using FUDGE in Mystara? On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Glenn Butcher wrote: >Thus spake MichaelX Harvey (MichaelX_Harvey@ccm.jf.intel.com): >>Just wondering if anyone is using FUDGE to run a game set in Mystara. As much as I love OD&D, Fudge has much to recommend it. I think Jamuga Khan summed it up pretty well: "The more complicated you make a thing, the more difficult it becomes to remember and the more you are disappointed in the last." Sorry, but what is FUDGE and where can I get info on it? thanks, gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:55:35 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types At 10:46 PM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-26 19:06:00 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >>There are 3 basic different types of language in the RW. >>1) Placement: Where a sentence derives meaning from the placement of words >>(for example the sentence "The dog bit the boy." is different in meaning than "The boy bit the dog.") >>2) Enclitic: Meaning is expressed through the addition of prefixes or suffixes (Latin is a good example) >>3) Tonal: Words can change meaning drastically by changing the tone with which they are spoken (I believe Chinese is an example). >"Tonal" is not distinct from the other types. It is. As I recall, the meaning of a >sentence in Chinese is determined primarily by word order, making it a "Placement" based language. All languages contain all 3 "types" to some varying degree. For instance the tone of an interrogatory sentence in English is different from the tone of an exclamatory sentence (So, it's you? So! It's you!!) But a given language can be considered primarily one or the other. As I pointed out in the original post Latin was primarily enclitic. But it does have elements of placement. Since I am not a scholar of Chinese I have to go with what I have been told on the subject. A language professor told me that the language is tonal to a higher degree than any western language. >The effect of changing the tone of a word is somewhat comparable to that of changing any single sound in an English word -- in most cases you will get a completely different word, not a grammatical conversion. For example, change the "a" in "bag" to a "u" -- the meaning of whatever sentece you meant to use "bag" in will have changed to something nonsensical. I am told that a similar effect will occur in Chinese if you get the tones wrong. Which can change a sentence's meaning considerably. This was precisely my point from the earlier post. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:58:18 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia At 12:01 AM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:45 PM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: >>That is not the only way. An alternative explanation is that those spells were >>indeed unknown to all of the cultures that were transported to the Hollow World. That would require that the unknown spells be invented some time after BC 100, when the Milenians were transported to the Hollow World. >BBBBZZZZZZZZ!!! Sorry, but thank you for playing...Blackmoor had all these spells, too, and they were WAY before BC100. So where have all the wizards gone? I thought of that too. But then I remembered that orcs and other humanoids were present as well (there was even a mountain range named "The Goblin Kresh") Perhaps the spells were known by those of Blackmoor and lost after the cataclysm or perhaps they were not known at all by the Blackmoorians. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:05:12 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Languages. At 12:20 AM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >Daly pontificated: >>3) Tonal: Words can change meaning drastically by changing the tone with which they are spoken (I believe Chinese is an example). >Not quite. Changing the tone generally change the word entirely. Only a very small percentage of words have more than one tones. In Chinese every word is single syllable, and many have same pronounciation, and more are differ just by the tone. Unlike most western languages, Chinese don't have much in terms of verb tense, different noun form for different gender or number. Which is why I have so much problem with subject-verb agreements in my writing. I think we meant the same thing but since I am travelling with a western perspective I explained it from a western perspective. Your explanation is clearer though, I think. >>For that matter what other communication types might there be? >In one region of China, there is a trade language based on touch. Two people haggling will hold hands, and I believe communicate by squeeze and touch different place on each other's hand. They generally put a piece of cloth over the hands so no one can tell what they are discussing. I believe there are many places use dances as a form of communication. This is cool! Now what Mystaran environments are likely to use these? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:11:21 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 10:24 AM 2/27/98 +0200, you wrote: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? >I think the 'canonical' source states that Blackmoor blew up so quickly that the Immortals didn't have time to save it. I don't buy it. They can go back in time and do whatever they want. I might add to that the >thought that Immortals wouldn't *want* to preserve the Blackmoor culture (who would want another cataclysm?). Blackmoor existed a long time and was not always into technology. I think that they sort of reached a >compromise with the Blacklore elves, who have their technology preserved, but made harmless to the rest of the world. So they put a salve on their egos and quieted their immortal consciences... >As for Alphatia, it wasn't destroyed as fast a Blackmoor (I don't believe a whole continent could sink in two seconds), so Immortals could save most>of its people - and there were enough Immortals interested in Alphatia's survival, too. I believe all the people were resurrected after the place sank and a new Alphatian continent was created. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:15:47 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Fudge, Q about other RPG systems Thus spake Gordon McCormick (gordon@Tierce.hea.ie): >On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Glenn Butcher wrote: >>Thus rambled MichaelX Harvey (MichaelX_Harvey@ccm.jf.intel.com): >>>Just wondering if anyone is using FUDGE to run a game set in Mystara. As much as I love OD&D, Fudge has much to recommend it. I think Jamuga Khan summed it up pretty well: "The more complicated you make a thing, the more difficult it becomes to remember and the more you are disappointed in the last." >Sorry, but what is FUDGE and where can I get info on it? Fudge isn't really a system, but a way of making a genre specific system. For example, you choose the statistics and skills you want. It encourages importation of sub-sections from other systems. What Gordon wrote is just the example that he would use (although if I use Fudge for D&D, I'd probably do it exactly the same way). The only problem I have with Fudge is that it is vulnerable to the Law of Small Numbers; ie: fine distinctions (say 1 on d20) isn't possible. A +1 bonus means a lot when there are only 7 possible results. If I use I plan to increase everything by a (say) factor of 5. I run the risk of removing the reason I liked it in the first place tho. I can't find the URL for it, but try searching for fudge and roleplaying on any decent search engine. The entire system is free and freely downloadable. Someone has broken Socks at this account, and the firewall isn't accepting my ssh key for some reason at my other account, so no web access. More things to fix in the morning... Taling about variant systems, what systems do people use for their campaign, both in Mystara and out of it? What kind of problems do people find in converting? Do you try to be accurate in converting, or just take the general power level and personality traits? Reply by personal email and I will summarise to the list if people are interested. - -- Glenn Butcher | knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au "Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)" (Linus Torvalds, about his failing hard drive on linux.cs.helsinki.fi) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:07:37 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:30:08 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:47 PM 2/24/98 +0000, you wrote: >>>D&D is the original system; it has been mostly the same since 1974, with some revisions in the following years. But AD&D was printed in 1979. Gary Gygax himself said that AD&D rules "comprise a _different_ game...It is neither an expansion nor a revision of the old game: IT IS A NEW GAME." (Best of Dragon Vol. 2, pg. 39, reprinted from Dragon #26, June 1979) >>Actually I had heard a rumor that D&D was created so that TSR could avoid paying royalties to Dave Arneson, who co-authored it. As I heard it, Arneson sued TSR for royalties on AD&D, and TSR wriggled out by claiming that he wrote D&D, but AD&D was a totally different game. Originally the D&D Basic set referred players to AD&D for 4th level and higher; after the lawsuit they revised it and introduced the Expert Set to make D&D into a totally separate line, thus securing their legal position. >>I don't know if this is true or not... but if it is, and TSR/WotC has to pay royalties on it, I'd guess that D&D will NEVER be published again. Unfortunate, since IMO it is the better system. >It is not just a rumor. It is true. But I believe WotC has settled the issue. Maybe WotC would be willing to throw this stuff into the Public Domain then... given its history??? Maybe we should petition TSR? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:18:09 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Languages. On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >This is cool! Now what Mystaran environments are likely to use these? The Horse Clan of Atruaghin does not have a spoken language, so they might use gestures and sensations to communicate. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:21:54 -0500 From: Daly Subject: [none] The discussion on language got me thinking... I don't want to say anything to specific lest I betray my own prejudices...so sorry if this is a little unclear. I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? I tend to start with Karameikos because it has civilized lands very near to wild lands. Also of course there is the large amount of info detailing the place. I find it a good place to start people who are unfamiliar with Mystara, because it contains all the typical fantasy elements of knights and dragons and such. It is a good beginning place. Right now I am trying to interest some players in trying a "merchant" or a "diplomat". I have to admit that the classes don't sound all that interesting...but I know they are. Maybe I will have to run a full mercantile or diplomatic campaign... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:41:12 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D >>>I don't know if this is true or not... but if it is, and TSR/WotC has to pay royalties on it, I'd guess that D&D will NEVER be published again. Unfortunate, since IMO it is the better system. >>It is not just a rumor. It is true. But I believe WotC has settled the issue. >Maybe WotC would be willing to throw this stuff into the Public Domain then... >given its history??? Maybe we should petition TSR? Well it depends on exactly what the decision was. It is possible that they are no longer allowed to publish it in any form, much less public domain... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:54:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: [MYSTARA] - Campaign starting points(was Re: your mail) On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? Nope, not because of where I live. I live in Ireland (though I'm Scottish) and the only Celtic type lands are over at Robrenn and I don't use the savage coast (although it is very cool and would like to run stuff there eventually). It'll be interesting to find out if there's much of a difference between North America and Europe though. I always figure that netted people and people who watch a lot of American TV end up being part of a wierd non-national culture anyway. >As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? Usually, Karameikos (for reasons you mentioned) or Glantri (cos it's just so cool! :) And it's easy for me to do Klantyre accents :) ) I ran a long campaign from Thyatis, worked quite nicely. The one I did in Alphatia didn't last so long though (only about 10 adventures), I felt the overwhelming presence of magic made it too tame, more like the Victorian age in England than the 15th century. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, and it was a fuin campaign running it where the PC's were spies for the Alphatian Government, very James Bondy with lots of magical gizmos... waffle, waffle, waffle, gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:56:02 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation In a message dated 98-02-26 09:42:52 EST, you write: << At 07:44 AM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? Blackmoor nuked the surface; do the Immortals really want to preserve a techno-mad culture without enough intelligence to prevent their own self-destruction? What if the Blackmoorians HAD been preserved in the Hollow World? By now they would have done something pretty horrible to it, according to their own Cultural Bias. Glen >> IIRC the Blackmoor's destruction via the GRoF happened quite quickly and caught the Immortals off guard. As such, contengency plans to recreate the civilization in HW were not able to be made. The other endangered peoples also drew priority. Then there is the massive damage that the Blackmoor's GRoF caused. A big "F" on their peoples report card. As Glen pointed out the Immortals would not want a repeat performance in HW. I would have liked to of seen a pre-tech Blackmoor preserved in HW. But given their strive for technological advancement (which the SoP would have preserved) you would have a paradox. Here are a few thoughts to ponder...... Perhaps Ixion's stern stance on the Radiance stems from what he sees as a potential repeat of GRoF. Once Rafiel's NoS is online there will essentialy be two. Hence the risk of another GRoF is doubled. The two NoSes are different. Rafiel's is more Blackmoor tech based and therefore more prone to blow up. What if the Fetch foresaw the GRoF and made means to save the Blackmoor from themselves. Compared to the survival of the Blackmoor, the adventures described in DA series are petty. I always expected Ixion and his allies stance on the Radiance to remain the same even after the WotI. Since the affected nations are back on their feet, perhaps the time is right. Could be interesting for some of the allies of Rad to "see the error of their ways" and aid him. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:20:00 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 08:56 AM 2/27/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-26 09:42:52 EST, you write: ><< At 07:44 AM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? >Blackmoor nuked the surface; do the Immortals really want to preserve a techno-mad culture without enough intelligence to prevent their own self-destruction? What if the Blackmoorians HAD been preserved in the Hollow World? By now they would have done something pretty horrible to it, according to their own Cultural Bias. >Glen >> >IIRC the Blackmoor's destruction via the GRoF happened quite quickly and caught the Immortals off guard. As such, contengency plans to recreate the civilization in HW were not able to be made. Once again, I don't buy it. The Immortals can travel through time and change history. They are likely to be reluctant to do so for the sake of preventing mere catastrophes but they can go back in time and resurrect a population. The other endangered peoples also >drew priority. I suggested there might be some sort of favoritism... Then there is the massive damage that the Blackmoor's GRoF >caused. A big "F" on their peoples report card. As Glen pointed out the Immortals would not want a repeat performance in HW. But suggesting there might be a repeat performance is pretty silly given the fact that the Blackmoorians did not even know what technology smelled like before the appearance of the Federation in their culture. >I would have liked to of seen a pre-tech Blackmoor preserved in HW. But given their strive for technological advancement (which the SoP would have preserved) you would have a paradox. But they did not strive for it before it was present... Not only Blackmoor though, Thonia was a great empire that never made it to the Hollow World. Perhaps we have Immortals who are biased toward a "Western" perspective... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:55:55 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: ><< I like your thoughts about the HEldannic Knights being more that what they >were portrayed as in Princess Ark. There are always more than one side tom a culture. Like the Shadowelves. Anyone thought of adding more dimensions to the Hattians btw? >> >Compare the Klingons in the classic Star Trek with the Klingons in TNG and DS9. Exactly--the closer you look, the more you see. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:57:27 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: ><< Also I would love to see more Blackmoor modules. We were really left >hanging after DA4. What the heck is the "fearsome Egg of Coot" anyway??!! >> >Bruce, if you read this: Can you answer the question? AFAIK TSR co-developer Dave Arneson created a ten level dungeon for the Egg of Coot. He should have had some ideas about the Egg. The Egg of Coot was actually a person, as the original Blackmoor supplement details, if I recall aright (my Blackmoor is under a pile of something, somewhere). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #126 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, February 27 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 127 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in [MYSTARA] - Firearms Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Firearms [MYSTARA] - Preserving Blackmoor Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:06:27 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Stephen Dolan wrote: >>As I have learned (over a long time, I have to admit) it's better to use so few tables as possible. >I agree with you there. Tables can create very unrealistic and unbeleivable siituations. Where i find talbes most useful is when I don't I make up *lots* of tables for my DMing. Here's how I use them: Roll dice. Consult table. Ignore result and make up something that makes more sense. Why do I bother to make up tables? It's actually a brainstorming technique and helps me to organize my notes. I say to myself, "I've decided that a riot is a surprisingly not-uncommon event in this town--which I remember because it's on this table with a frequency written next to it, so do I want something that is more or less frequent than I envision riots to be in this very unusual town?" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:09:03 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation I could see the Immortals preserving Blackmoor-but putting even greater barriers around it than it had on the surface world. Maybe there's a lethal radiation zone around the Blackmoor Reservation, that the Blackmoorans explain by their nuclear to-do. Since radiation can mess with electronics something fierce, this could also "explain" the effects of the Spell of Preservation on their attempts at research. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:11:43 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >Wouldn't it be awesome if a group on this list got together and designed a 10-level dungeon crawl set in Mystara? Something really big, comparable Not from my perspective. I despise dungeon crawls. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:19:04 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Firearms I have played around with firearms in D&D type games (cf "http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/DnD/guns/gonnes.html"), but I ultimately find the results unsatisfying. In D&D-style gaming systems, guns should have innate bonuses "to hit", since that is the only way to simulate the ability to punch through armor in that set of rules. However, those bonuses "to hit" should be based upon the AC that you're trying to penetrate--and the highest bonuses should be against the better AC ratings. You get my drift about how this becomes a complete mess. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:22:19 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 =?iso-8859-1?q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >>Someone told me that Gerg Stafford, President of Chaosium, said that roleplaying games have nothing to do with Computer RPGs. Roleplaying Games Computer "RPGs" are not role-playing games. They are wargames played in a fantasy setting. >by the prospect of sitting down to roleplay for a while. I wouldn't mind if what they did wasn't so mindless - standing in a training room hitting a dummy by clicking the mouse over and over is not exactly my idea of fun. Agreed. My idea of fun is standing in a training room hitting a dummy by actually HITTING the dummy. I do have fun talking to some of those on-line game players, though. "You killed how many creatures? Then why are you such an out-of-shape fat-ass?" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:24:33 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >Boy I *do* hate people who do stuff like take advantage of someone else's temporary forgetfulness. It just shows a complete lack of maturity. And And it lacks style *so* very much. Something that I used to do, more than a decade ago, and I'd *never* do it now, is to write a little script. All it does is display a little message and delete itself. Oh, and it aliases all the "ls" or "dir"-style commands to the "no files found" or equivalent message for that system--but only for that login session. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:26:56 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >I think that's a good point about Immortals not being gods simply because the word hasn't been defined by them. So, I guess the question is... when compared to gods of other settings, how do the Immortals compare? If there's no difference then they could be included in the term _gods_. The "gods" of the Forgotten Realms didn't create their world--except for Oa, or whatever his name is. I would say, though, that Mystara has been pretty well "defined" by the Immortals, whether or not they built the place. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:30:40 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types >In a message dated 98-02-26 19:06:00 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >>There are 3 basic different types of language in the RW. >>1) Placement: Where a sentence derives meaning from the placement of words The correct term is "isolating". >>2) Enclitic: Meaning is expressed through the addition of prefixes or Or "inflective". >>suffixes (Latin is a good example) >>3) Tonal: Words can change meaning drastically by changing the tone with "Tonal" is certainly *NOT* a "language type" in the same way as a language is inflective or isolating. That is like claiming that languages that have the /th/ sound are a separate type. Chinese is isolating, but Archaic Greek was inflective. Both are tonal languages (which is why Greek has three different types of "accent" marks--rising tone, falling tone, and "fall-rise" tone. No "accent" was a flat tone. By the time of the Roman Empire, the tones had been lost, but the original writing remained.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:31:45 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >>Wouldn't it be awesome if a group on this list got together and designed a 10-level dungeon crawl set in Mystara? Something really big, comparable >Not from my perspective. I despise dungeon crawls. I agree with you bjm10. (btw do you have a name?) However if Wotc published something like that for mystara, I'd probably buy it anyway since I'm a sucker for Mystara products. But people. Go ahead and make the dungeon. I dont want to discourage people from making mystara material. sincerely Håvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:30:12 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara At 09:57 AM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: >><< Also I would love to see more Blackmoor modules. We were really left >>hanging after DA4. What the heck is the "fearsome Egg of Coot" anyway??!! >> >>Bruce, if you read this: Can you answer the question? AFAIK TSR co-developer Dave Arneson created a ten level dungeon for the Egg of Coot. He should have had some ideas about the Egg. >The Egg of Coot was actually a person, as the original Blackmoor supplement details, if I recall aright (my Blackmoor is under a pile of something, somewhere). It is never described as a "person". There are basically two sources that I am aware of which I can look up at a later time. 1) The old blue basic rulebook that was originally designed to lead into AD&D (dragon on the front cover): In the forward Gary Gygax describes Dave Arneson's campaign world mentioning that he "found a swampy bog to place Blackmoor and the Fearsome Egg of Coot" That is not a direct quote but a summary from my memory. 2) The DA modules which describe the Egg of Coot as an "alien superbeing". That is a direct quote. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:33:26 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Castle Greyhawk is a super module TSR put out a while ago. It suppose to be 9 or 10 levels of dungeon below Castle Greyhawk. Each level was written by a different designer, without any It also won an unofficial "award" from the TSR writing staff as "the worst thing we ever did."--but that was just a rumor, of course... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:32:11 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation At 10:09 AM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >I could see the Immortals preserving Blackmoor-but putting even greater barriers around it than it had on the surface world. Maybe there's a lethal radiation zone around the Blackmoor Reservation, that the Blackmoorans explain by their nuclear to-do. Since radiation can mess with electronics something fierce, this could also "explain" the effects of the Spell of Preservation on their attempts at research. I like this idea. Then the Blackmoorians of the HW could believe that the cataclysm happened and that they were safe inside some sort of shielding (the shielding was far less than adequate in the real surface culture). They believe that the rest of the world outside the radiation area was destroyed. Fierce bizarre creatures exist within the radiation that serve as an extra barrier. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:34:04 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Firearms At 10:19 AM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >I have played around with firearms in D&D type games (cf "http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/DnD/guns/gonnes.html"), but I ultimately find the results unsatisfying. In D&D-style gaming systems, guns should have innate bonuses "to hit", since that is the only way to simulate the ability to punch through armor in that set of rules. However, those bonuses "to hit" should be based upon the AC that you're trying to penetrate--and the highest bonuses should be against the better AC ratings. You get my drift about how this becomes a complete mess. Or one can say that a firearm fires against AC9 regardless of the target's true armor class. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:38:07 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Blackmoor Here's a thought: Maybe the Immortals don't give a flying dingie about Blackmoor because the Blackmoorans utilized a basic intellectual paradigm that is innately inimical to the Immortal outlook. The Immortals utilize a basically hierarchical and magical paradigm. Power belongs to the talented and is to be very carefully marshalled and controlled by those talented beings. Technological devices can be used by anybody who is briefed on their operation--once the device is in the production stage. Power belongs to whomever can get their hands on the toys. You don't have to apply to an Immortal to become a star-blasting Space Ranger. The pseudo-tech elf reservation could be an afterthought--a bit of guilty conscience on the part of a few Immortals for allowing Blackmoor to go utterly extinct. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:52:21 CET From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation >>>Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed >>>Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals >>>place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce >>>that many Immortals? Blackmoor produced at least 3 immortals (well, I'm aware of 3, at any rate), though only one of them (Rafiel) is representative of the technological aspect of Blackmoor. And yet, he didn't achieve immortality in the classical sense. (the two others I remember are Asterius and Khoronus) >>Blackmoor nuked the surface; do the Immortals really want to preserve a >>techno-mad culture without enough intelligence to prevent their own self-destruction? What if the Blackmoorians HAD been preserved in the >>Hollow World? By now they would have done something pretty horrible to it, >>according to their own Cultural Bias. >>Glen >> >>IIRC the Blackmoor's destruction via the GRoF happened quite quickly and >>caught the Immortals off guard. As such, contengency plans to recreate the >>civilization in HW were not able to be made. >Once again, I don't buy it. The Immortals can travel through time and change history. They are likely to be reluctant to do so for the sakeof >preventing mere catastrophes but they can go back in time and resurrect a >population. At least it is the official explanation for their not preserving Blackmoor. I agree this is quite light, as they did preserve Alphatia, though it was also destroyed without warning (and that cost them a lot of PPs for sure). One thing to be noted is that the immortals, in all their wisdom, know full well how futile it would have been to go back in time and try to prevent the catastrophy. According to the theories of chronomancy, which the immortals of time have some knowledge about, the general flow of events cannot be altered and time tends to sort of regenerate itself (for more about this, see the Chronomancer supplement; for more about chronomancy in Mystara, look at my homepage). So, I hardly see how the immortals could have prevented the GRoF. However, like for Alphatia, they could have preserved it. UNLESS... If you look carefully in the HW books, you will notice that the immortals always transported selected elements from a culture just prior to its fall (again, except for Alphatia), ie in anticipation. In the case of Alphatia, they had bodies to resurrect (or more exactly to wish back to life) as most people died drowned or killed during the earthquakes. Now in the case of Blackmoor, there were no bodies left, as those had been disintegrated by the nuclear blast. You should remember that the NoS is like an immortal artifact. So maybe the energies involved prevented the immortals from using their powers on the Blackmoorians (that was beyond their power). Do you buy that one? >The other endangered peoples also >>drew priority. >I suggested there might be some sort of favoritism... Sure. Most immortals abhor technology (they prefer magic), so the Blackmoorians maybe had few immortal support. In fact, I wonder what immortals the Blackmoorians worshipped. Rathanos, maybe? >Then there is the massive damage that the Blackmoor's GRoF >>caused. A big "F" on their peoples report card. As Glen pointed out the >>Immortals would not want a repeat performance in HW. >But suggesting there might be a repeat performance is pretty silly given >the fact that the Blackmoorians did not even know what technology smelled >like before the appearance of the Federation in their culture. Well, they could fear a repeat anyway. Immortals can be pretty pathetic, you know. They certainly saw the eventual rediscovery of nuclear power by Blackmoorian scientists inevitable. >>I would have liked to of seen a pre-tech Blackmoor preserved in HW. But given >>their strive for technological advancement (which the SoP would have preserved) you would have a paradox. But they never did it. Which is quite surprising in fact, as they did it with other peoples who were at a turning point in their culture (best example being Shajapur/Sind, right prior to the shapeshifter purge). They certainly detected the Beagle's landing, and could have preserved Blackmoor before it became tainted with its technology. Oh well. >But they did not strive for it before it was present... >Not only Blackmoor though, Thonia was a great empire that never made it to >the Hollow World. Perhaps we have Immortals who are biased toward a "Western" perspective... Yes, Thonia. Hmmm. Anyway, there is one point that nobody mentioned so far: At the time of the GRoF (and one millenium before, at the time of King Uther), there were not that many immortals around. Maybe we should draw back Shawn's article about immortals which contains the dates of their ascensions. Anyway, there are some old immortals (including the ones that don't remember their mortal existence, plus a few others like Ka). But most are post GRoF. Especially, the sphere of Time had no immortals at the time, since Khoronus stumbled on the path by accident and sponsored himself (though he went back in time to sponsor Protius... hmm chronomancy is always tricky). _____________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/ Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:57 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting AD&D modules to Mystara In a message dated 98-02-25 23:09:24 EST, you write: << I wish I could contribute to this thread better but I usually butcher published adventures so much that you probably couldn't see why I bothered to use it. If any of you have the Ravenloft adventure Ship of Horror, I think it converts very easily into a Mystara adventure. Just remove the parts that deal with Ravenloft and its a good haunted ship story. >> Ship of Horror is a RL module. It primary malefactor Meredoth is an Alphatian mage. I think I have or have had the module. I would suggest the module being used as "Meredoth, the early years" to set the stage for later encounters. I love a reoccurring villian. The PCs could set themselves on a path to track down this necromancer. The final encounter occurring as Meredoth is drawn into RL. Whether the PCs are also taken is up to the DM. However, rerunning Ship of Horror would be an eerie reminder of their first encounter. Another Meredoth related plot- PCs find themselves in RL. They travel about. Remember they know not where they are. For all they know, they are still on Mystara. In one of the domains they see a familiar sight, a coin of Alphatian standard. Asking, they find that the coin originated from a land distant. The PCs feel that that land is Alphatia or at least one of her colonies. Hence they make speed to journey there to safety. They travell across RL doing the usual RL adventure things. Finally they reach what they see as "home sweet home" only to discover that the welcome they get is less than warm. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:10:22 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Patriarch wrote: >Haavard R. Faanes,Internet writes: >>I've been thinking about a Boxed set called "Thyatis and the Known World" forcusing on Thyatis, but with quite a good introduction its neighbouring nations. Artwork by Larry Elmore or Brom. Postersized maps, heavy weight of "feel" and culture. >Larry is too DL and Brom (as much as I love is art) does not fit in Mystaran at all. I think Clyde Caldwell is the man. He did do all the Gaz. Im sorta partial to Parkison. (I own some of his work) The reason why I like Larry in Mystara is the Od&d boxes, which was where I first discovered his art. But seriously, any good TSR artist would do. Just dont give me Jim Holloway. >I personally think that WoTC is going to redo and resell the Gaz series once time has passed and all mystara material is sold off the shelves. (a year or two) TSR has way to much material for WoTC not to pick up the ball. I'm surprised at your optimism. Hope you're right though! Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:16:05 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online Stories and Tales In a message dated 98-02-26 00:55:08 EST, you write: << It's me again with another suggestion I'd like to see. Fiction set in Mystara is seriously lacking. Has anyone wrote stories set in Mystara? I've a few ideas of spots in Mystara's history and current events (in my mind) that I'm working on. I was wondering how these would be recieved by the list. I personally would like to see some Mystarian fiction. I know one thing that I like to use when designing adventures are ideas from stories that I can use as a legend of sorts. And it gives us another creative outlet and I'm of the mind that creative outlets are always in short supply. Thoughts, ideas, stories? >> I started writing out my PC Allstrick's autobiography some time ago. Never got far with it though. Drew heavily on campaign journels. Allstrick always interested me. Not only was he one of my oldest PCs, he was also a fairly complicated character. As a "person" he evolved during his "lifetime". He was a fun PC to run. Perhaps one day when I finally get my other projects finished. Heck, I am way behind on Operation Hydra. Heretic Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:29:39 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Okay but you asked for it. Let us see what my twisted little mind can produce :-) In a message dated 98-02-24 23:30:07 EST, you write: <<1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together?>> I'd say WotI. <<2) Why do you prefer that Era?>> That was essentially the end of my actively playing. And it should be noted that Allstrick and his people were highly active during the period. However, he was not a true factor in the WotI adventure campaign. Circumstance IMC offered a different route altogether. << 3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: a) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided but also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information?>> Choice "C" definitely. IMO the main saving graces in the AD&D Glantri and Karameikos boxes were their updates as far as timelines. <<4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share?>> I'd like to see some Blackmoor stuff (both pre tech and circa tech) described as official. An official location for Blackmoor (Heads it's Brun, Tails its Skothar). Pre Wrath military configs. Davania decribed more. A timeline for the Emperors of Alphatia. More detail for Alphatia. An official tie in with the Immortal Arik being the dark powers of Ravenloft. And RL being the plane in which he was imprisoned. That's all for now. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:32:55 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? In a message dated 98-02-25 02:44:15 EST, you write: << > I like the explanation used; it's a believable one considering that this is >a fantasy setting. The Alasyian desert is so hot because of a gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire somewhere in the land. This creates a microclimate which makes the land a desert even though there is a snowy mountain range to >the north. Actually, if the world map on pp 280-281 of the Rules Cyclopedia is accurate, then Norwold lies at approximately 40 degrees N lattitude. The climate would be similar to the Northeastern US or northern China and Japan -- humid mild summers but incredibly cold winters. AFAIK not really very similar to the Nordic regions of Europe, but climate does not necessarily imply culture anyway. Of course that doesn't explain the desert; tropical storms should blow northwest from the Sea of Dawn during the monsoon season. The desert *might* be explained by a mountain range of Himalaya proportions to the southeast of the desert, except that one does not exist. Maybe a magical barrier preventing normal weather patterns? Or of course, a gate. ;-) Mike >> Somewhere maybe the PWAs it says that the nations of Mystara are subject to micro climates to explain their countering environments. It also says the most viable explanation is to mark it up to magic and the fantasy setting. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:37:12 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: At 08:21 AM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? Being Canadian, I tend to run my campaigns in a familiar environment; the no-magic zone at the polar openings. >As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? >I tend to start with Karameikos because it has civilized lands very near to wild lands. Also of course there is the large amount of info detailing the place. I find it a good place to start people who are unfamiliar with Mystara, because it contains all the typical fantasy elements of knights and dragons and such. It is a good beginning place. Seriously, I agree with this; Karameikos is the best starting point in Mystara, especially if you have modules B10 through B12. These three adventures can easily be linked together to start a campaign off on an epic foot. >Right now I am trying to interest some players in trying a "merchant" or a "diplomat". I have to admit that the classes don't sound all that interesting...but I know they are. Maybe I will have to run a full mercantile or diplomatic campaign... I like the Darokinian merchant class, where a fighter can make some cash on the side. It would be useful for a wizard, as well...spell research is expensive, and sometimes it's just too much trouble to invade a bugbear lair. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:40:44 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country At 08:21 AM 2/27/98 -0500, Daly wrote: >[...snip...] >As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? I'm rather fond of Darokin myself, but then I've only ever started and run one campaign in Mystara. ;-) The other two DM's I associate with have both started their campaigns in Karamekos(sp?). I prefer the "Western" countries, probably because I also own the Champions of Mystara boxed set and my associates don't, so by starting in Darokin, I can slowly move them even further west, to Sind or the Divinarchy of Yav (that's the plan anyway). As a result, I'm also keen on the Five Shires, the Atruaghin(sp?) Clans and Irendi. I kinda wish the Red Baronies stuff was set at the same time as the rest of the Gazetters, 'cause then I'd probably think about using it too. I might anyway and just translocate a lot of the stuff back to the 1000AC era. Haven't really decided yet. :-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #127 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.