mystara-digest Friday, February 27 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 128 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re(3): [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Firearms Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Blackmoor Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone using FUDGE in Mystara? [MYSTARA] - Re: The Egg of Coot and Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Blackmoor Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] - Stuff... Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:03:06 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation >>Once again, I don't buy it. The Immortals can travel through time and change history. They are likely to be reluctant to do so for the sake >of >>preventing mere catastrophes but they can go back in time and resurrect >a >>population. >>theories of chronomancy snipped<< I am operating under old assumptions from the Immortals set and the modules that followed it. Clearly Immortals had the power to absolutely shape time (which I admit I never particularly liked) to a flow that they desired. All it would take would be the judicious use of Immortal level wishes. The Chronomancy supplement is a newer source. Nothing wrong with it. One can argue that the Immortals set is more Mystaran related or one could argue that the Chronomancy supplement is newer. Either argument is a fine reason to accept the particular source you prefer. I have rambled on enough and yet I don't think I have been nearly clear enough. Time is tricky. And my head hurts... >in the case of Blackmoor, there were no bodies left, as those had been disintegrated by the nuclear blast. You should remember that the NoS is like an immortal artifact. So maybe the energies involved prevented the immortals from using their powers on the Blackmoorians (that was beyond their power). >Do you buy that one? Hmm. *grumble* Hmm. *waffle* Hmmm... Not really I don't think. Almost. But not quite yet. >>The other endangered peoples also >>>drew priority. >>I suggested there might be some sort of favoritism... >Sure. Most immortals abhor technology (they prefer magic), so the Blackmoorians maybe had few immortal support. In fact, I wonder what immortals the Blackmoorians worshipped. Rathanos, maybe? That is a good question. >>>I would have liked to of seen a pre-tech Blackmoor preserved in HW. >But given >>>their strive for technological advancement (which the SoP would have preserved) you would have a paradox. >But they never did it. Which is quite surprising in fact, as they did it with other peoples who were at a turning point in their culture (best example being Shajapur/Sind, right prior to the shapeshifter purge). They certainly detected the Beagle's landing, and could have preserved Blackmoor before it became tainted with its technology. Oh well. Yes...I am getting an idea... >>Not only Blackmoor though, Thonia was a great empire that never made it >to >>the Hollow World. Perhaps we have Immortals who are biased toward a "Western" perspective... >Yes, Thonia. Hmmm. >Anyway, there is one point that nobody mentioned so far: At the time of the GRoF (and one millenium before, at the time of King Uther), there were not that many immortals around. Ok I've got it! There was a great battle going on between the Immortals at the time. The losers were the Thonian pantheon. The three Blackmoorian Immortals you mentioned were not really Thonian and have kept their mouthes shut...possibly fearing reprisals...(or possibly in Khoronus' case just a little senility) The winners had no interest in resurrecting Blackmoor society. How is that? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:11:04 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-24 23:11:04 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >>Incidentally, I find it hard to believe that in the thousands of years since >>the Hollow World was first settled, no mages have learned any of those 'forgotten' spells. 95% of wizards of 9th level or higher know Fireball >and >>Lightning Bolt. But of all the wizards that ever got transported to the >HW, Actully the Zargosians of the Milenean empire do know Lightning bolt....(which added much happiness to my 5th level mages in my campaign after they toasted one of thier mages :) ) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:17:50 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >It is never described as a "person". There are basically two sources that I am aware of which I can look up at a later time. Oops, I was also going off old gamer lore--the Egg of Coot is based upon an actual Wisconsin wargamer that both Gygax and Arneson knew and disliked, or so I have heard. PS: I know who Gigi d'Arn really is... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:18:56 -0600 From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: Re(3): [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Håvard, Internet writes: >>I personally think that WoTC is going to redo and resell the Gaz series once time has passed and all mystara material is sold off the shelves. >(a >>year or two) TSR has way to much material for WoTC not to pick up the ball. >I'm surprised at your optimism. Hope you're right though! >Sincerely >Håvard TSR has so much material. I feel it would a major business error if they didnt make use of it in the future. I am sure WOTC will buy its time until old Mystara material is imposible to come by and only a hand full of gamers ever remember what Mystara was. (2-3 years at the most) :-) And if not...we should pull all our monies together and buy the rights! ((YA RIGHT)) Patriarch mailto:Patriarch@cmnwrld.com Where I net game http://CWSpot.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:19:33 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Firearms On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >Or one can say that a firearm fires against AC9 regardless of the target's true armor class. But that isn't how Gonnes work. Even in the 15th century one could by "armor of proof", which had been "proofed" or tested by firing a musket at it. If the ball bounced, it was good. Thus, some armor offered some levesl of protection. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:31:40 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation >destroyed. Fierce bizarre creatures exist within the radiation that serve as an extra barrier. I like that idea too.....Now its just to find a place to put em. The fierce creatures will give PC's fun things to do if for some reason they have to get to the Blackmoor civilization. steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:39:11 EST From: Dleggend Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set In a message dated 98-02-27 02:19:52 EST, you write: << have just gotten an Immortal box set and I have to say WotI looks more informative. It offered more information on the Immortals themselves than the Immortal set. Someone said the rules are a little different but I haven't gotten that far into it to compare yet. I paid $5 in shrink-wrap for mine (was a Christmas sale) so it was worth it to me but I was extremely lucky in this case. Thanx for the info Dleggend@aol.com http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:40:00 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara At 01:17 PM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>It is never described as a "person". There are basically two sources that I am aware of which I can look up at a later time. >Oops, I was also going off old gamer lore--the Egg of Coot is based upon an actual Wisconsin wargamer that both Gygax and Arneson knew and disliked, or so I have heard. >PS: I know who Gigi d'Arn really is... Who he? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:45:53 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Blackmoor In a message dated 98-02-27 10:51:07 EST, you write: << Here's a thought: Maybe the Immortals don't give a flying dingie about Blackmoor because the Blackmoorans utilized a basic intellectual paradigm that is innately inimical to the Immortal outlook. The Immortals utilize a basically hierarchical and magical paradigm. Power belongs to the talented and is to be very carefully marshalled and controlled by those talented beings. Technological devices can be used by anybody who is briefed on their operation--once the device is in the production stage. Power belongs to whomever can get their hands on the toys. You don't have to apply to an Immortal to become a star-blasting Space Ranger. The pseudo-tech elf reservation could be an afterthought--a bit of guilty conscience on the part of a few Immortals for allowing Blackmoor to go utterly extinct. >> Actually, I never imagined the Blackmoor as being very pro space exploration. If they were, one of the first stops would be the moon and you know what is up there (visible one). Though I found Mystaros's timeline of Blackmoor interesting, I do not use it. Instead, I have them focusing on global domination. Part of that domination involves satelites for spying and communications. Since they have a foot into the door space wise, there is some interest by some Blackmoor to reach for the stars. Public opinion is parted on whether to consolidate the planet or venture into space.This is where I place GRoF. The big bang occurs prior to full commitment to astral travel. But I agree that the Blacklore were a guilt trip. Like I said before, I'd like to see part of HW dedicated to the pretech Blackmoor. But you'd have to have the surrounding areas occupied by Thonians, Afrihdi to keep them occupied. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 10:49:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone using FUDGE in Mystara? >Sorry, but what is FUDGE and where can I get info on it? Fudge is a very simple and customizable RPG system (and it's free). http://members.aol.com/ghostgames/ http://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/frp/fudge/fudge_toc.html Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:10:08 -0500 From: Daly Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: The Egg of Coot and Mystara Check out what I sent to TSR/WotC about the Egg of Coot idea, discussed yesterday, and their response! >We are in fact discussing the possibilities with Dave Arneson. >At 01:31 PM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Long ago Dave Arneson designed a 10 level dungeon for the "Egg of Coot". I believe it would be profitable for you to open up a discussion with Arneson on revamping this "super module" and publishing it for the now defunct Blackmoor setting of Mystara. >>As the Egg of Coot was described vaguely as an "alien superbeing" it could actually fit easily in any campaign setting and therefore could be marketed as a standalone product. I am certain that anything produced by Dave Arneson would be of interest to all older gamers not to mention the fact that you can use this as an opportunity to "throw a bone" to Mystaran gamers. >>In short I believe such an item would be of value to your gamers and consequently to your company. >>Thank you. >Stay on target, >Peter D. Adkison >CEO, Wizards of the Coast *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:12:13 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Blackmoor >But I agree that the Blacklore were a guilt trip. Like I said before, I'd like >to see part of HW dedicated to the pretech Blackmoor. But you'd have to have the surrounding areas occupied by Thonians, Afrihdi to keep them occupied. Wouldn't want them to get bored afterall...! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:51:26 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 Dleggend wrote: >I was thinking of buying the Immortal Box set and I was wondering if it's worth it. >I have the wrath of immortals and I would like to know the differences between the box sets as well as your opinions. In my opinion the original Immortals set was a mixture of sheer brilliance and over-complicatedness. On the one hand it has the best description of the multiverse I have ever seen (although it might be considered to be slightly out of date - hard to tell with the not-so- great descriptions in Wrath of the Immortals - I still use this setup of planes and dimensions). It has an interesting "Creatures" section, introducing the draeden, flickers, tonals, diaboli and demons. With demons (the old name for "fiends" of course) there are interesting comparisons to be made between the gold box and Wrath of the Immortals, because Fiends are drastically less powerful in Wrath of the Immortals. It also has of course the original version of the Immortal rules, which means good descriptions of the spheres of power (although WotI and PC1 probably beat this), an interesting magic section similar to the one in WotI, and of course the actual gameplay rules, which are undoubtedly the most complex set of rules I have ever read. (WotI did a good job of making them more useable.) Finally, it has wonderful cover art and pretty good interior art (like all the boxed sets), but best of all it has the original description of the Old Ones. All in all, well worth the money if you ask me. :-) Then again, remember that I read the boxed set before WotI, and there are some large differences which may disappoint you. For instance, don't buy it expecting the same sort of description of the Immortals, because it just isn't there. The Immortals themselves get an entry in the Creatures chapter, with a small amount of detail on the Immortals in general (eg apparently there are 2,000 in total) but no details on individual Immortals except for a list which includes all of the Immortals from the Master set (the creators of the artifacts). However, if you are interested in what Immortals were originally like in D&D, along with some other great stuff, then you should get it. Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:05:23 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types At 10:30 AM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >>In a message dated 98-02-26 19:06:00 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >>>There are 3 basic different types of language in the RW. >>>1) Placement: Where a sentence derives meaning from the placement of words >The correct term is "isolating". I did not recall the correct term. Thanks. >>>2) Enclitic: Meaning is expressed through the addition of prefixes or >Or "inflective". I am proud to have remembered "enclitic"! >>>suffixes (Latin is a good example) >>>3) Tonal: Words can change meaning drastically by changing the tone with >"Tonal" is certainly *NOT* a "language type" in the same way as a language is inflective or isolating. That is like claiming that languages that have the /th/ sound are a separate type. >Chinese is isolating, but Archaic Greek was inflective. Both are tonal languages (which is why Greek has three different types of "accent" marks--rising tone, falling tone, and "fall-rise" tone. No "accent" was a flat tone. By the time of the Roman Empire, the tones had been lost, but the original writing remained.) Actually I believe you are wrong about this. Perhaps I threw you with the word "type". Maybe "element" is a better term. Either way, all 3 are present in all languages. To expand on my previous example: English uses placement as in "The dog bit the boy"; it also uses tone as in the difference between an interrogative sentence and an exclamatory one; and finally it uses enclitic attachments, especially regarding verbs and adverbs. But the primary element in English is that of placement. Latin and Chinese both have all three elements as well (actually Chinese may not use enclitics...Yu?) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:06:55 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re[2]: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set >In my opinion the original Immortals set was a mixture of sheer brilliance and over-complicatedness. On the one hand it has the best description of the multiverse I have ever seen (although it might be considered to be slightly out of date - hard to tell with the not-so- great descriptions in Wrath of the Immortals - I still use this setup of planes and dimensions). It has an interesting "Creatures" section, introducing the draeden, flickers, tonals, diaboli and demons. With demons (the old name for "fiends" of course) there are interesting comparisons to be made between the gold box and Wrath of the Immortals, because Fiends are drastically less powerful in Wrath of the Immortals. Excuse me! Demons' spell-casting ability was extremely limited. Fiends (with the IMHO silly assumption that they spent the TP first thing in the morning) cast any mortal spell at will. That makes them much more powerful than any mortal of any kind and more powerful than most of the other Exalteds. Aaron Alston's response to this observation was along the lines of "Well, I never use Timestop myself". Well, I do use Timestop and I'd say any well-played Fiend would do so as well. Nothing like it to cast some Meteor Swarms, Power Word Kills, and invoke some Call Others at will while your mortal opponents are frozen in time stasis. Drastically less powerful? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:00:56 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>I think that's a good point about Immortals not being gods simply because the word hasn't been defined by them. So, I guess the question is... when compared to gods of other settings, how do the Immortals compare? If there's no difference then they could be included in the term _gods_. >The "gods" of the Forgotten Realms didn't create their world--except for Oa, or whatever his name is. I would say, though, that Mystara has been pretty well "defined" by the Immortals, whether or not they built the place. Sorry, my wording was bad. What I meant to find out is how do their power levels compare? With this discussion about Blackmoor (enjoyable btw), it seems the Immortals are _more_ powerful! I've never heard of another setting's powers being able to go back in time. I could be wrong, I often am... I just don't like to admit it ;> - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:10:10 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >Actually I believe you are wrong about this. Perhaps I threw you with the word "type". Maybe "element" is a better term. Either way, all 3 are You said "type". The context of your usage put all three "types" on the same apparent taxonomic level. The tonality of a language is quite independent of whether it is isolating or inflective. Tonality is an element of phonetics. Isolation/inflection is an element of grammar. One might as well say that there are three types of animals: Endotherms. Exotherms. Water-Breathers. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:48:00 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types At 05:10 PM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>Actually I believe you are wrong about this. Perhaps I threw you with the word "type". Maybe "element" is a better term. Either way, all 3 are >You said "type". The context of your usage put all three "types" on the same apparent taxonomic level. That is what I said. I threw you with the word "type". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:05:05 -0000 From: "Alan Jones" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: - -----Original Message----- From: Daly To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM Date: 27 February 1998 13:38 >The discussion on language got me thinking... >I don't want to say anything to specific lest I betray my own prejudices...so sorry if this is a little unclear. >I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? >As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? My campaign started in Karameikos. The reason for this is that I had just bought the RC and the D&D Black box set. This combined with the modules that had just come out, and the only ones available where I was, were set in and around that area. e.g. Dymrak Dread. Also it is nice and central so easy for the PC's to get around. Also Karameikos is pretty 'generic' so allowing us to get a grip with the rules etc before moving on to other areas. Now most of my adventures are set in Thyatis, I love the decadence I suppose. Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon / Thoria Hammerwrecker / Deris Of Clan Blackstar / Jodotha "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important" - Gary Gygax http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:45:37 EST From: Ambreville Subject: [MYSTARA] - Stuff... I grabbed several pieces of posts, rather willy-nilly. Here are a few thoughts before I go to bed (or the baby starts crying again)... <> Arneson and some of the old guard (I mean really OLD guard -- not me even after 15 years at TSR) would know details about the Egg of Coot. We had talked about it ever so briefly, but unfortunately we never got to publish it. <> Good luck. Remember Blackmoor stuff is not part of the latest timeline. One way to weave this back into current Mystara would be to relocate it in the Hollow World. Place it on Aericall or Jomphur -- basically anywhere other than Iciria to avoid continuity problems with established cultures. Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed >>Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? Didn't have the time. HW died as a product line before we got to that part. Any DM worth his/her salt would have no difficulty grafting on to the Hollow World a piece of Blackmoor. <> You said it too... Blackmoorian culture (multi-cultures would be more accurate) would be preserved first. Technology is a different matter. Blacklore elves' tech is limited to a specific perimeter within the Hollow World, outside of which it ceases to function. I would not want to use the same trick for Blackmoor. Perhaps one way to control the proliferation of technology would be to severely limit raw materials and energy -- making technology absolutely priceless. As a result, Blackmoorians could rather treat these artifact as sacred objects of cult rather than use them. Another twist would be to include the anti-tech police, basically priests who know some ancient legends of a Blackmoor blowing up as a result of its abuse of technology. Their goal is to scour the Hollow World of any artifact that uses "unholy" powers (electricity, nuclear, chemical, and so forth). They would allow magical energy or steam at best. I could see bounty hunters stalking the bearers of stolen technology across the entire Hollow World... and beyond. THYATIS Roads Temples (I think there would be government assist for some temples in addition to the tithe) Military Agriculture Construction Free bread Entertainment (Arena, Races) Salaries (The Emperor as well as the Senate I think would have some sort of stipend) Magical Research Ummm -- Space Program? Yeah, yeah... Let's fire off that quinquireme into space! Never mind, been there, done that -- Heldannic Knights are already there, staring down at the mighty eagle. How about a secret program for covert imperial activities (those only some select members of the imperial court would know, and officially not of the knowlege of either the emperor or the senate). Sure, let's open this decanter of endless wyrms. Let's see (rattles the cracked pot for a second)... Ah yes! Let us create the Imperial Environment Protection Alfenward. The court elves start out with a program to protect Thyatian lands from rampant deforestation. With time, more gets added including flood and river management (Elven Corps of Engineers), wildlife protection, regulation of substances issued from alchemy or magic-use, deadly disease control, the Department of Entropic Affairs (mostly about undead and lycanthropes), food regulations, fishing quotas, urban sanitation, laws on stale beer, cheap tobacco, and smokepowder arms (and the enforcement thereof), imperial customs and immigration, etc. Ain't imperial life fun! How about an Education Program? Gotta have some schools, not just for wizards... Care to add more? :) Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:38:48 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. In a message dated 98-02-26 20:10:10 EST, you write: << Just for an idea that might throw players off... have the creator of the dungeon keeping something or someone from entering into the world and he uses the monsters to keep out everyone that might release this old evil into the world. I like ideas like this because it throws the good/evil axis into the grey area (Yea, right. You're trying to protect the world by keeping all these monsters here) and it helps shows that good isn't always easy to recognize. Also, you'd have to use neutral monsters. What do you think? Have I been reading this screen too long? >> Am going to make the suggestion of Itheldown Island in Darokin. I have been toying with a big dungeon idea there for quite some time. It might fit with this theme... sort of. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #128 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 03:04:28 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #129 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com Status: RO mystara-digest Saturday, February 28 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 129 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:00:43 -0700 From: "Dennis Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D vs. AD&D >Kaviyd has a point. The RC is hard to get ahold of. Originally I had all of Boxed Rules Sets plus several other material peices but I sold them. Since getting back into gaming, the RC has been the most difficult item to get. In >fact, I have seen only a few offered for sale online and they were gone when I >enquired about them. One company had several but had all of them purchased by >the same person, probably a collector. >As yet I have no RC which isn't a problem as I rarely play straight D&D. The >Box Rules are out there and in abundance so to speak. I have the Red Box as well as the Classic D&D Box. I''ll probably opt to get the rest of the Box Series if the RC is out of reach for much longer. I had noticed that there were fewer RCs available here in Phoenix. Perhaps I should grab the one copy that I know of, since mine is disintegrating from overuse. And it's half price, so I probabl will. >Gazs are another problem product. I have most of them. Only lack about three >or four of them. Most notably Glantri and Alfheim. This IS a very difficult problem, as are some of the adventure modules. >All of this goes back to Kaviyd's premise of losing D&D enthuseists as the product becomes ever increasingly difficult to find. This is a shame. I would >hope that WotC would reissue some of the Gazs at least. We can only wish (and write letters)... Patrick *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:27 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? In a message dated 98-02-24 13:38:10 EST, gordon@Tierce.hea.ie writes: >Bruce did Gaz3 (glantri! Hurrah! :) ) and gaz 10 (orcs of thar). Don't forget that Bruce Heard also wrote the entire Princess Ark and Known World Grimoire series as well as most of the _Champions of Mystara_ boxed set. Add that material in and he becomes the prime authority on Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:34 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins In a message dated 98-02-24 22:50:16 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >No, I can't see Rad having a round table of warriors who follow him. But since it is Clerics and not Fighters that he dislikes -- maybe he would try to set up an order of Foresters? That might be a little tricky given Ilsundal's hostility towards him, but wouldn't Rad consider such an effort worthwhile? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:26 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-24 13:18:15 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >And, not having the books in front of me, I wonder if wishes are even >possible in the HW? I would say no. The Wish spell is explicitly forbidden in the Hollow World boxed set, and it can certainly do the sorts of things that are mentioned as still forbidden in the Hollow World according to the PWAs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:20 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? In a message dated 98-02-24 03:37:33 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >Ah, but we'll help WotC out with the relaunch of Mystara, making it bigger >and better than ever! The Realms shall fall, Greyhawk shall collapse, and Ravenloft shall disappear into the mists. Mystara shall rule over all! But none of those worlds will be completely destroyed -- the Immortals of Mystara will set up small enclaves for each of them in the Hollow World. ;) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:42 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? In a message dated 98-02-25 10:37:55 EST, megst19+@pitt.edu writes: >I also think Bruce did X2, simply because I always >see him associated with Glantri products...X2 was perhaps the 2nd real Mystara module as well as the first Glantri one? No, Tom Moldvay wrote X2. But it was definitely Bruce's Gaz3 that made me a fan of Mystara. Karameikos was of minimal interest to me, as it seemed to be just another typical fantasy setting. I might have set a campaign in Ylaruam, but it never caught my attention the way Glantri did. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:19 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics In a message dated 98-02-23 20:54:17 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >I don't think the disadvantages are enough to offset all the bonuses you wrote >down earlier. Perhaps for starters...there should be higher minimum scores in certain areas... Of course, higher minimum ability scores are not a disadvantage for those characters who happen to have those scores.... I would pick something else (such as behavioral restrictions) for disadvantages. I would not require extremely high ability scores unless such scores were implicit in the class concept. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:17 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics In a message dated 98-02-23 20:50:03 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >I believe it was meant for a class that believes in inside power, rather than >getting powers from other forces outside of yourself. I think praiseing an Immortal would be against their nature. They try to become one with themselves >and find an inner tranquillity. Master their body.....and not allow temptations to sway what they truly beleive........i guess the best way to describe how i picture them is as very wise and deep people. The Mystics of Glantri would have to have such beliefs, since otherwise they would not have been tolerated prior to the 11th century AC. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:22 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? In a message dated 98-02-24 03:40:02 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >This makes me wonder. Does anyone recall the original creators of >Mystara (the Known World) or those that contributed to it (besides Bruce and Aaron who aren't with TSR any longer I believe)? Just got me thinking that if it did return, there's a lot of background that could easily be overlooked. Ann Dupuis headed up two of the PWAs, if I am not mistaken. But you have identified one major problem with bringing back Mystara -- none of its principal creators are with TSR any more. To do this right, TSR/WotC will need to negotiate deals with Aaron, Bruce, and perhaps others to do some freelance work for them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:09 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-02-23 19:32:56 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >The idea that law if not good is foriegn to them [Paladins]. Not completely. I don't think it would be too difficult for most Paladins to conceive of nations ruled by chaotic evil tyrants who impose unjust laws - -- laws which would clearly violate the "higher code" that the Paladin adheres to. Some Paladins may actually know of such nations, or even live in them (probably as outlaws). Defying such tyrants would be against the laws of those nations but would not be chaotic behavior from the point of view of the Paladin and his church -- unless, of course, the Paladin had previously been duped into believing that the nation in question was under the control of just and lawful rulers. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:19:53 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian clerics In a message dated 98-02-23 19:03:53 EST, brizio@lunet.it writes: >What about going to the Great School of Magic in Glantri City instead? :-) >I don't see the need of talent to become a magic user. You need talent to become a great magic user, but IMO everyone (even someone with Int = 3) can be a magic user. He won't be a good MU (in game terms he won't reach high levels), but he would still be a MU. In Gaz 3 there are a few NPCs mentioned as having no talent for magic -- and indeed they are not Mages. So there are many people who are completely incapable of learning wizardly magic, regardless of their intelligence (up to 16, at least). We can, of course, assume that any player character wizards are not among the untalented ones. From various sources we can determine that the talent for magic is possessed by 100% of Elves, 10% of Humans, and 0% of Dwarves and Halflings. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:12 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-02-23 19:45:16 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >It is tragic indeed when a paladin finds himself stuck between doing "the >right thing" and doing what authority says is the right thing. The proper decision in my never to be humble opinion, is to go ahead and do the right thing and then present himself to the authorities afterward. That might depend on how far the authorities have strayed from the "right path". If the authorities have clearly shown themselves to have the moral values of fiends, a Paladin would feel no obligation to surrender himself to them. If he does so, it would not be for the purpose of satisfying their clearly perverted justice. The situation that you describe would make more sense, however, in a mostly just society where the rulers strayed from righteousness in a matter that might be considered minor by most people -- but not by the Paladin. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:24 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins In a message dated 98-02-24 12:11:11 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >I disagree. I believe in a situation where the church is wrong, the paladin >will speak out against it strongly and then turn himself in to the church to >suffer whatever punishment they devise. Of course you should realize that the paladin would not be alone in his beliefs -- assuming that the clerics also get their powers from a divine source, many of them would face a similar realization. The result would be controversy and division within the church -- and the paladin would be left in the same position as other followers of the faith in trying to sort it out. The Inquisition was in some sense a result rather than the cause of such a struggle. After all, it was created in a world where judicial torture was commonly accepted and rulers would sometimes accuse wealthy vassals of heresy in order to execute them and seize their property. The Inquisition was the Church's attempt to control these horrors and thus no Paladin would have opposed it at first -- it was, in fact, an improvement over previous conditions. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:45 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation In a message dated 98-02-25 22:47:32 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >Well, I'm kinda new to the Hollow World myself with only the box set and >the three resource suppliments in my library but one question that occurred to me is, where's Blackmoor? The Known World is my favorite place for adventuring but many seem to like Blackmoor and it seems like the Hollow World would be a safe place to keep it alive and available for adventure. Is it too late for the Immortals to place it in the Hollow World? If they can resurrect Alphatia _after_ it's sinking then Blackmoor shouldn't be too much problem. If it's not there, why not make a net.project placing it? Considering that Blackmoor was the source of the technology of the Blacklore Elves, preserving the culture of Blackmoor would present even more problems. And the remnants of that culture continued to create problems in Grunland and Glantri for centuries after the Great Rain of Fire. The general impression I got from the available sources was that the Immortals did not want to preserve the culture of Blackmoor. But there was a remnant of the Blackmoor culture that is cited as surviving the Great Rain of Fire. In WotI, Khoronus is described as establishing a Blackmoorian colony on another plane. I would dearly love to see some one detail that culture. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:40 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-25 03:38:52 EST, brunciak@erols.com writes: >2) MAGIC! Why would I want to make a gun if I could cast a fireball? >The only ones who would bother with chemicals are alchemists who are usually magic-users of some kind. "OOOH! I just developed a powder which explodes!" "Big Deal! Here's a Lightning Bolt for you!" It is only a matter of time before economics tilt in favor of guns. To begin with, "Why would I want to make a gun if I could cast a fireball?" -- What if I CAN'T cast a fireball? And even if I can, there are very few people with sufficient talent and experience to do so -- and those who can will run out of fireballs quite quickly in a pitched battle. One answer to this problem would the approach used by the Alphatian boltmen -- but those wands are extremely expensive, perhaps even more so than firearms would be once they are developed. And remember how the Nucleus of the Spheres has been draining magic from Mystara? At some point the balance between magic and technology will tilt in favor of technology. But I would propose that this transition should still be centuries in the future. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:29 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision In a message dated 98-02-24 17:28:51 EST, brizio@lunet.it writes: >On a more general issue. >If undead are cold then you should be able to "uncover" them just shacking their hands. >So how can Baron Sulescu in Karameikos be still in charge? Has he never met King Stephan? >Umbelievable IMO. >Same things for Morphail, his Barons and his brothers. Boris Gorevitch-Woslany lives in Glantri City, takes part to parties... and you would say that nobody has yet touched him noticing his undead status (he's a nosferatu)? >Sorry, I can't believe it. I think you have just presented an excellent argument why vampires/ nosferatu, at least, should have close to normal human body temperatures when they are well fed. There is certainly precedent in legend for this -- a hungry vampire is cold and bestial in appearance -- clearly undead -- while a vampire who has fed on the blood of the living is almost alive and can pass for human to most tests. Of course, there are too many other ways that vampires could be exposed. Surely their aversion to holy symbols would expose them (except in Glantri, of course). More significantly, their lack of reflection in mirrors would have to be noteworthy -- and I would suspect that mirrors would be far more common than holy symbols in Glantri. Of course, if Boris is always the one hosting his parties, then he can easily ensure that there are no large mirrors in his presence. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:36 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Roleplay vs. "roleplay" (long) In a message dated 98-02-24 22:59:31 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >There may be problems with the AD&D alignment system, but the original >system was much worse. Elves as lawful beings? They are rugged individualists with a good attitude. The D&D rules suggested "Lawful or Neutral", and I think that "Lawful" was included only because of the "Lawful = Good" fallacy. Certainly "Neutral" would fit most Elves better. >Look at the Legion of Thar; looks >pretty Lawful to me, but the humanoids are all considered chaotic. But the Legion of Thar was loyal to Thar, not to any ideology or "law" he might have stood for. It seems to have fallen apart pretty quickly after WotI. >The second axis gives a lot more freedom in alignments. It has been my experience that the good/evil axis creates more problems than it solves. "Lawful" and "chaotic" represent philosophical extremes that reasonable people can justify -- and "neutrality" between the two extremes is quite easy to imagine. The same cannot be said for "good" and "evil". Look at it this way -- what could an "evil" character do that would be considered a "good" act and thus an alignment violation? Only followers of Entropy are consciously evil in the Mystara setting -- and their attitudes are condidered too bizarre for them to be suitable as player characters. If you want more freedom in alignments, I would suggest that "less is more" and drop the good/evil axis. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:43 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? In a message dated 98-02-25 10:37:55 EST, megst19+@pitt.edu writes: >I don't have X4 or X5, but I believe those were penned by the same author >and seem to be a major source of info for Mystara as they are frequently mentioned on the list Add them to David Cook's list of credits. These modules introduced us to Hule and the Master. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:48 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation In a message dated 98-02-26 08:01:26 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed >Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? It did produce Khoronus and Benekander -- but Benekander did not emerge as an Immortal until the WotI time period, and Khoronus found another way to preserve the Blackmoor culture (see WotI and my earlier message). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:49 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality In a message dated 98-02-26 13:36:36 EST, greis@dorit.ihi.ku.dk writes: >so likewise no immortal would call himself god, unless he knew >what that term implied, but if there are no gods the term wouldn't exist and nobody would use it. I don't know about that -- we use the term "god" pretty freely and have even less evidence for their existence than the folk of Mystara do. Of course, to a mortal who does not realize that he can potentially become an Immortal, the distinction between "god" and "Immortal" would be a real issue of splitting hairs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:38 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-25 03:38:52 EST, brunciak@erols.com writes: >1) The real world didn't work like that at all. Civilization didn't go >from Roman Advanced to Middle Age Primitive to Rennaisance Advanced again. True, some technology was lost but very little. Actually, an argument can be made that the fall of Rome actually encouraged many technological advancements, primarily in the area of warfare -- stirrups, heavy armor, and crossbows are among the more obvious inventions from the so-called "Middle Ages". Of course, for most of this perioud the advances came so slowly that most people thought that the level of technology was stagnant or had even declined since Roman times. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:53 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation In a message dated 98-02-26 17:04:48 EST, brizio@lunet.it writes: >Actually they could be defeated. They just cannot be annihilated. >At the end of the war (if they're defated, that is) there would be left just 2 Alphatians: a man and a woman (Eriadna and Haldemar :) It wouldn't be quite that bad -- after all, it would take more than one couple to preserve the culture. But Alphatia could be routed in all of its battles on the surface and even suffer an invasion that leaves over 90% of its floating continent under enemy occupation -- the culture would still survive and thus the Spell of Preservation would not have to kick in. But of course there is a vast difference between thriving and merely surviving. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:51 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins In a message dated 98-02-26 13:36:40 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >Sorry, I do not see a connection between the Klingons and the Heldannic >Knights at all. I know the inspiration for the plotlines in "The Princess Ark" were taken from Star Trek but I believe the relevance ends there. Besides, the authors of the existing Mystara materials left little room for Hattians to be depicted as anything other than racist thugs. In my own campaign Prince Jaggar of Aalban in Glantri provided a contrasting point of view (as by marrying an Alphatian he proved that he was not a racist), but the conversion to AD&D blackened his character a bit. At this point the most likely place to find "honorable" Hattians would be on the island of Hattias itself. Surely among the large number of Hattians there must be a fair number who resent the narrow minded views of such groups as the Storm Soldiers and are eager to show the rest of the world that there are good and honorable people among the Hattians. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:32 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D In a message dated 98-02-24 22:38:41 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >D&D is the original system; it has been mostly the same since 1974, with >some revisions in the following years. But AD&D was printed in 1979. Gary Gygax himself said that AD&D rules "comprise a _different_ game...It is neither an expansion nor a revision of the old game: IT IS A NEW GAME." (Best of Dragon Vol. 2, pg. 39, reprinted from Dragon #26, June 1979) >It don't get much clearer than that, folks. The man has spoken. If you have ever seen the three games in question (original D&D, 1st edition AD&D, and Expert Set D&D), you would see that AD&D is a relatively minor revision of the original D&D. Check the fighter level limits for example: Dwarf: Level 6/7/8 (OD&D), level 7/8/9 (AD&D), level 12+ (EX D&D) Elf: Level 4/5/6 (OD&D), level 5/6/7 (AD&D), level 10+ (EX D&D). Halfling: Level 4 (OD&D), level 4/5/6 (AD&D), level 8+ (EX D&D) Half-Elf: Level 6/7/8 (OD&D), level 6/7/8 (AD&D), not present (EX D&D) If you look through the rest of the rules I think you will find that OD&D and AD&D 1st edition have more in common with each other than either does with the later D&D rules. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:27:58 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-27 02:25:14 EST, ats@acm.org writes: >Ah, but magical defenses.... protection from normal missiles, anyone? >I'll sit around and mass produce amulets of such just to stop guns from having any effect. I'm sure alphatia would have no problems with that.... But that is creating a magic item -- and magic items are too expensive to be mass produced. Alphatia is probably the only nation with the resources to even consider such a project -- and even they would have difficulty doing so by the time mass production of firearms becomes practical. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:28:00 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation In a message dated 98-02-27 12:23:21 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >Ok I've got it! There was a great battle going on between the Immortals at >the time. The losers were the Thonian pantheon. The three Blackmoorian Immortals you mentioned were not really Thonian and have kept their mouthes shut...possibly fearing reprisals...(or possibly in Khoronus' case just a little senility) Khoronus wasn't senile -- he did, after all, manage to start a Blackmoorian colony on another plane, where it survived the Great Rain of Fire. So there was no need for him to create another Blackmoor in the Hollow World -- it still existed in a location where it was not bound by the Spell of Preservation (good to Khoronus) and yet had little chance of "corrupting" Mystara (good to most of the other Immortals). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:28:01 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-27 13:28:56 EST, dolan@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu writes: >Actully the Zargosians of the Milenean empire do know Lightning >bolt....(which added much happiness to my 5th level mages in my campaign after they toasted one of thier mages :) ) So the spell is "arcane lore" known only to an obscure Entropic cult, right? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:27:55 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia In a message dated 98-02-27 00:26:03 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >At 10:45 PM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: >>That is not the only way. An alternative explanation is that those spells were >>indeed unknown to all of the cultures that were transported to the Hollow World. That would require that the unknown spells be invented some time after BC 100, when the Milenians were transported to the Hollow World. >BBBBZZZZZZZZ!!! Sorry, but thank you for playing...Blackmoor had all these spells, too, and they were WAY before BC100. So where have all the wizards gone? I was aware of the DA modules. I can think of two explanations as to why they had these "newer" spells: 1) The spells had indeed not been invented -- references to these spells should be ignored along with references to ogres and trolls, which also did not exist in the Blackmoor era even though the modules mention them. 2) The spells were lost in the Great Rain of Fire and not rediscovered for several thousand years. In any case, the culture of Blackmoor was never transported to the Hollow World, so we need only posit that the more "advanced" spells, if they were known to the Blackmoorians, never reached the more distant cultures that survived the Great Rain of Fire and/or were later transported to the Hollow World. So get your hand away from that buzzer.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:27:57 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. In a message dated 98-02-27 01:55:44 EST, scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu writes: >Castle Greyhawk is a super module TSR put out a while ago. It >suppose to be 9 or 10 levels of dungeon below Castle Greyhawk. Each level was written by a different designer, without any connection in between. So it was just a big book of mish mash dungeon levels. It is suppose to be humorous, but I didn't think much of it was that funny. And consider I was expecting a serious module, I was quite disappointed. With those silly looking orcs on the front cover you were expecting a serious module? I actually was fairly successful in using this module as part of a bizarre alternate plane. The dungeon levels were actually the sanest part of that plane.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:02:29 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Kaviyd wrote: >Not completely. I don't think it would be too difficult for most Paladins to conceive of nations ruled by chaotic evil tyrants who impose unjust laws -- laws which would clearly violate the "higher code" that the Paladin adheres to. Some Paladins may actually know of such nations, or even live in them (probably as outlaws). Defying such tyrants would be against the laws of those nations but would not be chaotic behavior from the point of view of the Paladin and his church -- unless, of course, the Paladin had previously been duped into believing that the nation in question was under the control of just and lawful rulers. Well, I'm not sure. Laws usually don't depend on the alignment of the ruler since they are how to govern a society though there are unfair laws. If a ruler hopes to remain in power, he shouldn't push it too much. And he he does, then the paladin would attempt to remove him. An outlaw requires hiding and subterfuge something a paladin would be against doing. All in my opinion, of course ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #129 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:15:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #130 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com Status: RO mystara-digest Saturday, February 28 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 130 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Exposeing undead Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Exposeing undead ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:12:08 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystics Kaviyd wrote: >Of course, higher minimum ability scores are not a disadvantage for those characters who happen to have those scores.... I would pick something else (such as behavioral restrictions) for disadvantages. I would not require extremely high ability scores unless such scores were implicit in the class concept. The Complete Wizard's Handbook had something like this for the Wu Jen class such as: can't eat meat of animal products, can't sleep within 20 yards of a member of the opposite sex, can't wear a certain color, can't carry gold (or other precious metal) on his person, can't bathe or must bathe frequently, can't cut his hair or fingernails, can't intentionally take the life of an insect, can't drink alcoholic beverages, can't sit facing the north (or other direction). - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:23:34 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Kaviyd wrote: >I don't know about that -- we use the term "god" pretty freely and have even less evidence for their existence than the folk of Mystara do. Of course, to a mortal who does not realize that he can potentially become an Immortal, the distinction between "god" and "Immortal" would be a real issue of splitting hairs. I think if the Bible had said 'Immortal' instead of god that we might not have learned the word either. I think the words can be used interchangably on Mystara though since I haven't seen exactly the difference between gods and immortals yet in term of power ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:29:09 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Kaviyd wrote: >At this point the most likely place to find "honorable" Hattians would be on the island of Hattias itself. Surely among the large number of Hattians there must be a fair number who resent the narrow minded views of such groups as the Storm Soldiers and are eager to show the rest of the world that there are good and honorable people among the Hattians. I would disagree. Maybe racist attitudes vary but the society as a whole is the mostly like source of the Storm Soldiers. Most racist groups form from the extremist of the society but the racism is present all through it in some form. Not saying there are none without it but as a whole... - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:34:59 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Kaviyd wrote: >But that is creating a magic item -- and magic items are too expensive to be mass produced. Alphatia is probably the only nation with the resources to even consider such a project -- and even they would have difficulty doing so by the time mass production of firearms becomes practical. Ah, but you forget. Mages are highly intelligent and would see the problem and work to cut it off before they are caught at a disadvantage. Amulets aren't even needed if they decide to just fireball the manufacturing plants. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:55:55 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Exposeing undead << Of course, there are too many other ways that vampires could be exposed. Surely their aversion to holy symbols would expose them (except in Glantri, of course). More significantly, their lack of reflection in mirrors would have to be noteworthy >> I also think that if a vampire was attempting to attain Princedom in Glantri...it would make sense for them to have had defenses set up against detection before they even attempted to attain princedom. Becomeing a prince is obviously going to make the individual known by most in the Known world, and his face noticed by most in his principality nevermind the rest of Glantri. Individuals like McGregor and Morphail must have known this beforehand. So, whereas most vamps would probably live in seclusion or whatever, they wouldn't be so easy to notice. These Princes should be extremely easy to notice, but now i'm tending to agree that there may have been defensive spells to hide these truths. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:03:27 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country Another comment: Jenni wrote: >I prefer the "Western" countries, probably because ... ... Well, I prefer the Minrothad Guilds. You can travel around the world with undercover missions sanctified by the master of a guild OR you could be up against the Guilds. These loose islands are easily manipulated and if you stay low you can go unnoticed for quite some time. Furthermore there is a strong attitude towards trade (as it is with Darokin) and you can "leave" your state of neutrality and use your world-spanning connections. >... As a result, I'm also keen on >the Five Shires, the Atruaghin(sp?) Clans and Irendi. I kinda wish the Red Baronies stuff was set at the same time as the rest of the Gazetters, 'cause then I'd probably think about using it too. I might anyway and just translocate a lot of the stuff back to the 1000AC era. Haven't really decided yet. :-) I´m just wondering. The Red Curse Box as far as I can recall is mentioned from 1000 AC to 1010 AC!! It also details the effects of the WotI on the region!! Or am I wrong?? Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:37:02 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 01:20 AM 2/28/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-23 19:32:56 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >>The idea that law if not good is foriegn to them [Paladins]. >Not completely. I don't think it would be too difficult for most Paladins to conceive of nations ruled by chaotic evil tyrants who impose unjust laws -- laws which would clearly violate the "higher code" that the Paladin adheres to. Some Paladins may actually know of such nations, or even live in them (probably as outlaws). Defying such tyrants would be against the laws of those nations but would not be chaotic behavior from the point of view of the Paladin and his church -- unless, of course, the Paladin had previously been duped into believing that the nation in question was under the control of just and lawful rulers. I submit that any paladin who thought slavery laws were a good thing would be a fighter for the rest of his life. However, I've already written a dozen posts about this before, so I'll stop now. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:51:05 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country At 08.21 27/02/98 -0500, Daly wrote: >I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? No. I'm Italian, so I should start my campaign in the Principality of Sirecchia (Castelbianco?). Maybe even Kerendas would be OK. Actually I don't like none of the two... maybe because I don't like Italy very much :-) >As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? If it is a campaign for beginners I tend to start with Karameikos, otherwise if I have experienced players I choose something less generic. My favourites, in random order: Shadow Elves, Ethengar, Atruaghin, Sind, Darokin, Heldann, Hule, Serraine, Esterhold, Renardry (as described by Bruce Heard, not the Red Steel one). Place where I would never start a campaign: Ylaruam, Ierendi, Five Shires, HW, Savage Baronies. >I tend to start with Karameikos because it has civilized lands very near to wild lands. Also of course there is the large amount of info detailing the place. I find it a good place to start people who are unfamiliar with Mystara, because it contains all the typical fantasy elements of knights and dragons and such. It is a good beginning place. I agree. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:26:18 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) At 01.20 28/02/98 EST, Kaviyd wrote: >Of course, there are too many other ways that vampires could be exposed. Surely their aversion to holy symbols would expose them (except in Glantri, of course). More significantly, their lack of reflection in mirrors would have >to be noteworthy -- and I would suspect that mirrors would be far more common than holy symbols in Glantri. Of course, if Boris is always the one hosting his parties, then he can easily ensure that there are no large mirrors in his presence. But what is exactly an holy symbol? I mean, each Immortal has his own symbol: a flaming wheel for Ixion, a book with a star on the cover for Rafiel, the silhouette of a Tree of Life for Ilsundal, a sword laid on anvil for Halav... How the Immortal's symbol relates to a holy symbol? Do clerics of Ixion have medallions with a flaming wheel and use these to turn undead? What about other Immortals/clerics? Do vampires dislike all holy symbols, even those of entropic Immortals? BTW: can anyone use a holy symbol against vampires or just clerics? Rad's Temples in Glantri probably display Rad's holy symbol (three connected emispheres forming a triangle), does this means that Morphail cannot enter one of such temples? PS: well, next week I'll be away from home, hope my many questions will start a nice discussion. See you in about a week. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:21:15 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols << But what is exactly an holy symbol? I mean, each Immortal has his own symbol: a flaming wheel for Ixion, a book with a star on the cover for Rafiel, the silhouette of a Tree of Life for Ilsundal, a sword laid on anvil for Halav... How the Immortal's symbol relates to a holy symbol? Do clerics of Ixion have medallions with a flaming wheel and use these to turn undead?>> For clerics of Ixion....the sight of a flaming wheel could be seen as a sign from Ixion. For a holy symbol in material form...i think anything that shows a sign of thier Immortal should count as a holy symbol...it might be extreme if they pull out a miniature wheel, douse it with oil, and set it aflame, but anything haveing to do with fire is a suitable holy symbol IMC for Ixion. However, it must always be the same. If one priest always makes a 3ft line of fire in front of him, and there isn't enough space...he can't use it. If one holds a flaming wheel...and loses it...they can't just find another way to display fire...they must posess a wheel to be set of fire. Clerics of Khronus must hold something like an hourglass....... But i let players come up with original ideas all the time. For instance, a particular cleric of Illsundal always must have a plant/tree of size of at least 6ft tall ...and he could use it as a holy symbol....needless to say...there isn't much trouble useing it in most natural terrain, but inside structures it was impossible. He thought that in order to respect Illsundal...he would never utilize his powers inside structures....just out in open nature.... a bit drastic, but it makes for a better and more unique game. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:25:03 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation In a message dated 98-02-27 09:44:13 EST, you write: << But suggesting there might be a repeat performance is pretty silly given the fact that the Blackmoorians did not even know what technology smelled like before the appearance of the Federation in their culture.>> Even the pretech Blackmoor yearned for technological advances. DA series draws attention to that. The pursuit of knowledge was one characteristic of Uther. The University was one of his great acheivements. Though it did not mean TVs and VCRs. I think it meant a better way to do things in general. When the City of the Gods appeared, it offered a great deal of wonderful little ditties. The Blackmoor were known for their intellect as well as their battles against outnumbering foes. It is true that a brave heart may strengthen the sword arm, but such repeated assaults cannot be explained as a triumph of wills. The men of Blackmoor had to of had an "ace or two up their sleeves". These "aces" could be better arms and armor. Improved tactics. <> That is a good point. Thonia had begun its decline with Uther's breakaway. Surely some Immortal would have seen the decline and moved the best of the lot to HW. Then there are the Afrihdi (sp). Place the HW Thonians and Afrihdi about pretech HW Blackmoor and you have a preservation of the past. I once read a book that reminds me much of HW. I'll dig through my paperback stacks and see if I can find it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:28:42 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps >Do vampires dislike all holy symbols, even those of entropic Immortals? Some Immortals don't/can't give thier followers the ability to turn undead, but if the cleric of the Immortal has the power to turn undead.....then yes of course. >BTW: can anyone use a holy symbol against vampires or just clerics? Vampires should fear any holy symbol, as they know it can hold power over them. However, only priests may actually make use and display thier power through their holy symbol. In actuallity, i beleive that if the Vampire is old enough to understand whom may use and whom may not use the symbol, then they'll make a decision based on that, but juvenille vamps (0 - 50ish years of being undead)should fear a holy symbol displayed by anyone...unless of course there is reason otherwise... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:35:42 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >I think if the Bible had said 'Immortal' instead of god that we might not have learned the word either. I think the words can be used "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us." The Trisagion prayer, a central prayer of Orthodox Christianity. In Orthodox Christian doctrine, only God is immortal by nature. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:35:10 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps >Rad's Temples in Glantri probably display Rad's holy symbol (three connected emispheres forming a triangle), does this means that Morphail cannot enter one of such temples? As long as there is anyone whom can display Rad's powers. If there are no followers that can utilize his powers then Morphail may entered unhindered. If there is....they should be able to use Rad's powers, and in being in a holy place of his worship i believe the defender should act as a few levels higher when casting spells....for all effects. Then again, what really are the chances of someone like Morphail wanting to go into a church? But then again....anything can happen in Mystara - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:38:55 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >I submit that any paladin who thought slavery laws were a good thing would be a fighter for the rest of his life. However, I've already written a dozen posts about this before, so I'll stop now. Upon what criteria is slavery automatically evil? Is your campaign the ONLY valid model of a campaign? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:42:09 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation In a message dated 98-02-27 10:24:14 EST, you write: << I could see the Immortals preserving Blackmoor-but putting even greater barriers around it than it had on the surface world. Maybe there's a lethal radiation zone around the Blackmoor Reservation, that the Blackmoorans explain by their nuclear to-do. Since radiation can mess with electronics something fierce, this could also "explain" the effects of the Spell of Preservation on their attempts at research. >> But that still leaves the HW Blackmoor at an appex. The radiation barrior would roughly be the same as the border of the Blacklore Valley. What technology did exist would be that supplied by the Immortals's gifting. Not totally created by them but that technology that is allowed. I do prefer a pre tech Blackmoor Civilization residing in HW. Perhaps the radiation zone combined with memories of the big bang have turned the Blackmoor back to their pre tech days. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:41:01 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 02:11:58 EST, you write: << It is only a matter of time before economics tilt in favor of guns. To begin with, "Why would I want to make a gun if I could cast a fireball?" -- What if I CAN'T cast a fireball? And even if I can, there are very few people with sufficient talent and experience to do so -- and those who can will run out of fireballs quite quickly in a pitched battle. One answer to this problem would the approach used by the Alphatian boltmen -- but those wands are extremely expensive, perhaps even more so than firearms would be once they are developed. And remember how the Nucleus of the Spheres has been draining magic from Mystara? At some point the balance between magic and technology will tilt in favor of technology. But I would propose that this transition should still be centuries in the future. >> Yes it is true that the gun is the great equalizer. However, if guns are developed they should do so in a real time scale. Guns did not appear over night. The evolution was a methodical and slow process. Early guns were pretty expensive and considered weapons of the wealthy. Many were status symbols and decorated to an almost tacky state. Gun types such as wheel locks were mechanically unreliable. It often took a craftsman such as a watchmaker to build and repair a firearm. Even firearms such as flintlock and purcussion locks were pretty tricky to mass produce. One of the most famous early guns, the British Brown Bess, was a marvel of the industrial age. Then you have the weaknesses of early guns. Wet weather even high humidity can spoil the powder. Even weapons that fire put up a great deal of smoke. Accuracy sucked. Barrel quality could leave the weapon blowing up in ones face. Firing success varied. No standard measurements for powder components. They were heavy and ungainly. They kicked like a mule (personal experience with a muzzle loader) And finally, matchlocks....ouch I burnt myself again (failed dexterity check) or percussion locks.... dang it!! pinched finger again. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:15:51 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) In a message dated 98-02-28 09:52:27 EST, you write: << But what is exactly an holy symbol? I mean, each Immortal has his own symbol: a flaming wheel for Ixion, a book with a star on the cover for Rafiel, the silhouette of a Tree of Life for Ilsundal, a sword laid on anvil for Halav... How the Immortal's symbol relates to a holy symbol?>> IMC holy symbols are amulats that bear a rendering of the clerics patron Immortal's symbol. IMO a holy symbol is less of an actual source of power than a point for a cleric to focus his will and beleif upon. When a cleric raises his holy sybol towards a vampire to attempt to Turn them, he is placing his belief and will behind the symbol of his Immortal. << Do vampires dislike all holy symbols, even those of entropic Immortals?>> Not sure, I have always seen the Turn Undead ability as a an addition to the clerics spell inventory. As such, it would cause as much damage to the intended target as any spell cast by the cleric . I would imagine the vampire cleric would not be affected by the holy symbol he/she wears. However, if events occur that place the vampire cleric into conflict with another vampire not "of the faith" then sure why not let the Turn Undead be attempted. Another example- A cleric of Talitha is running a zzonga shop in Bluenose. Recent attacks by a vampire have hurt business. The cleric sets out to rid the area of the vamp. <> IMO yes. But not to Turn them. I assume that most holy symbols are blessed. Some touching a vamp would cause damage. Holding it before the vamp may keep it at bay. At least out of immediate reach. <> Well IMO a Temple of Rad would be considered sacred ground. Blocking undead admittance may not lay decisively with the displayed symbols of Rad. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:32:55 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 02:23 AM 2/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >Kaviyd wrote: >>I don't know about that -- we use the term "god" pretty freely and have even less evidence for their existence than the folk of Mystara do. Of course, to a mortal who does not realize that he can potentially become an Immortal, the distinction between "god" and "Immortal" would be a real issue of splitting hairs. >I think if the Bible had said 'Immortal' instead of god that we might not have learned the word either. I think the words can be used interchangably on Mystara though since I haven't seen exactly the difference between gods and immortals yet in term of power ;) I see it as the recognition by Immortals that they are not gods. A little humility on their part... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:32:46 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 03:54:42 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >Ah, but you forget. Mages are highly intelligent and would see the >problem and work to cut it off before they are caught at a disadvantage. Amulets aren't even needed if they decide to just fireball the manufacturing plants. Now we know how the Laterre inquisition got started.... Besides, why would a Mage feel threatened by firearms? He can still make himself immune to bullets (by means of those amulets mentioned earlier, or even by normal cast spells) and use his own spells as "heavy artillery". Those mundanes with the arquebuses would fill the same role for him that zero level mercenaries fill for a high level fighter. Used correctly, firearms could actually enhance a Mage's strength. In any case, Mages who do feel threatened by a firearms factory would have considerable trouble reaching it if it is built in Rockhome or Ylaruam -- and if they start blowing up buildings like that, there would soon be many more countries where wizards might be equally unwelcome. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:53:03 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 10:35 AM 2/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>I think if the Bible had said 'Immortal' instead of god that we might not have learned the word either. I think the words can be used >"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us." >The Trisagion prayer, a central prayer of Orthodox Christianity. >In Orthodox Christian doctrine, only God is immortal by nature. This thread is going nowhere. Immortals and God have no relationship...etymological or otherwise. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:13:34 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country In a message dated 98-02-28 08:25:39 EST, wizzard@mail.intcom.de writes: >I´m just wondering. The Red Curse Box as far as I can recall is >mentioned from 1000 AC to 1010 AC!! It also details the effects of the WotI on the region!! >Or am I wrong?? The major effect of WotI on the Savage Coast was to spread the Red Curse from a relatively restricted area of the Savage Baronies to most of the region. Two changes would be required to move that material back in time: 1) Player characters are unaffected by the Red Curse -- disregard that section of the rules. Since the Afflicted cannot leave the Savage Baronies, they would not make good player characters. 2) Aranea should be given an XP penalty of perhaps 50% to reflect the fact that their racial bonuses are not offset by the Red Curse. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:13:25 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) In a message dated 98-02-28 09:52:27 EST, brizio@lunet.it writes: >But what is exactly an holy symbol? It would have to be an item specifically blessed and dedicated for the purpose -- the old movie trick of holding two candlesticks together to make a cross wouldn't cut it. But the magic required to make a holy symbol is within the means of low level Clerics, so holy symbols are not too difficult to obtain. >Do vampires dislike all holy symbols, even those of entropic Immortals? Actually I think it is just those of Lawful cults or Immortals -- but that still leaves a lot of possibility. >BTW: can anyone use a holy symbol against vampires or just clerics? Only a Cleric can turn a vampire. Anyone can hold a vampire at bay with a holy symbol. >Rad's Temples in Glantri probably display Rad's holy symbol (three connected emispheres forming a triangle), does this means that Morphail cannot enter one of such temples? Morphail would probably be safe there -- with no true Clerics, none of Rad's symbols would be properly dedicated to him. But Morphail would most likely stay clear of those temples just in case. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:13:31 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Exposeing undead In a message dated 98-02-28 08:23:15 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >Individuals like McGregor and Morphail must have known this beforehand. So, >whereas most vamps would probably live in seclusion or whatever, they wouldn't >be so easy to notice. These Princes should be extremely easy to notice, but now i'm tending to agree that there may have been defensive spells to hide these truths. I think both of these individuals became Princes before they became undead. But Glantrian Princes are a tad more reclusive than other rulers, so they would have had time to develop the magic needed to hide their new natures. And there are explicit mentions in published materials to the effect that Brannart, at least, uses magic to conceal his true nature. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #130 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:15:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #131 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com Status: RO mystara-digest Sunday, March 1 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 131 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:13:42 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 12:04:53 EST, Alex295@aol.com writes: >Yes it is true that the gun is the great equalizer. However, if guns are >developed they should do so in a real time scale. Guns did not appear over night. The evolution was a methodical and slow process. That is why I suggested that the development of proper firearms was centuries away -- the developers would face all of the obstacles faced by their real world counterparts as well as the inertia of societies that are quite satisfied with using magic in its place. My argument was with those who said Mystara would "never" develop firearms -- there is a big difference between "never" and "not for a long time". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:13:36 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-02-28 09:16:11 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >I submit that any paladin who thought slavery laws were a good thing would >be a fighter for the rest of his life. However, I've already written a dozen posts about this before, so I'll stop now. But the source of those laws would make a difference in how he reacts to them. If a ruler were to introduce slavery to a society that had never known it, it would be his obligation to resist immediately so that the practice can be rooted out before it becomes established. But suppose he was born into a society where slavery is an accepted institution. He would know quite well that slavery was a bad thing, but he would also be aware that it would be counterproductive to go around killing all of the slave owners and setting the slaves loose. However, he would certainly take less extreme measures to ease the plight of slaves, work for their release, and/or persuade those in authority that slavery cannot be allowed to continue. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:44:26 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) At 02:13 PM 2/28/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-28 09:52:27 EST, brizio@lunet.it writes: >>But what is exactly an holy symbol? >It would have to be an item specifically blessed and dedicated for the purpose -- the old movie trick of holding two candlesticks together to make a cross wouldn't cut it. But the magic required to make a holy symbol is within the means of low level Clerics, so holy symbols are not too difficult to obtain. Oh I don't know. A creative use of something by a priest or paladin should be encouraged. For instance, in a campaign that I played in the characters were all captured by jungle goblins and tossed into a ravine. The paladin drew a holy symbol on his chest using his own blood. Now while I find the idea of self mutilation rather abhorrent, this was an instance of a person who normally does not think things out coming up with a good idea. And besides...it was MY character he was resurrecting! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:11:08 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) In a message dated 98-02-28 15:00:40 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >Oh I don't know. A creative use of something by a priest or paladin should >be encouraged. For instance, in a campaign that I played in the characters were all captured by jungle goblins and tossed into a ravine. The paladin drew a holy symbol on his chest using his own blood. Now while I find the idea of self mutilation rather abhorrent, this was an instance of a person who normally does not think things out coming up with a good idea. That is creative -- and it does exemplify a very paladin-like ethos of self sacrifice for the sake of others, so it should work. But the problem I see with the crossed candlesticks is that it is way too easy to make an item that superficially resembles a cross. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:26:46 -0300 From: Victor Caminha Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country At 02:51 28/02/98 +0100, you wrote: >At 08.21 27/02/98 -0500, Daly wrote: >>I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? Howdy! Out of lurker mode , at least for now :) In the savage baronies there are some traces of portuguese-iberian culture that still has some roots here in NBrazil..the "Gaucho" is a more native cultural here, but in both cases i really disliked then and did not use...I preferto play a National RPG here detailing brazilian culture in its full..please no offense meant :) >>As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? Well, lately i am starting campaigns for people , though no newbie, never heard about Mystara and THe D&D (truly a pity TSR came lately..)For convenience, i usually choose a country that may be accessible to various cultures/races/characters. Usually i choose Darokin, but karameikos is also ok...But i would really like to make a campaign more centrally based in Alphatia :) >If it is a campaign for beginners I tend to start with Karameikos, otherwise if I have experienced players I choose something less generic. My favourites, in random order: Shadow Elves, Ethengar, Atruaghin, Sind, Darokin, Heldann, Hule, Serraine, Esterhold, Renardry (as described by Bruce Heard, not the Red Steel one). Shadow elves, Esterhold Atruaghin are very appealing too :) >Place where I would never start a campaign: Ylaruam, Ierendi, Five Shires, HW, Savage Baronies. I agree with you in the case of savage Baronies. Ylaruan, although difficult, its not overtly impossible, but i do not see much trouble beggining a campaign at HW or five shires >>I tend to start with Karameikos because it has civilized lands very near to wild lands. Also of course there is the large amount of info detailing the place. I find it a good place to start people who are unfamiliar with Mystara, because it contains all the typical fantasy elements of knights and dragons and such. It is a good beginning place. I agree, but i thin that due to its frontiers, The Republic of Darokin could fit well in this scenario []s Victor Caminha "Receive the bounty of your hero's deed Tainting thy life by the gift of the dead Eternally running from a priestly bead Unable to bear the Orb in your head You'll walk in the darkness so alluring Without Hope to cleanse your sin Away from the joy of the living Forever to serve your Twin" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:13:15 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >Upon what criteria is slavery automatically evil? Is your campaign the ONLY valid model of a campaign? Not sure where this is going but I'd like to say that any system that attempts to remove the right of basic human needs and desires and give them to another is evil. Some were treated well but that was only at the whim of the owner. It removed too many basic human rights to ever be anything but evil in all its forms. This doesn't necessarily make the slaver evil but he is engaging in a evil activity. Of course, I also believe that one way to identify evil is by its actions. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:28:09 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Daly wrote: >I see it as the recognition by Immortals that they are not gods. A little humility on their part... Now if we could isolate where they have had the chance to compare themselves to true gods, it may tell more of their origins. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:03:42 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>I think if the Bible had said 'Immortal' instead of god that we might not have learned the word either. I think the words can be used >"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us." >The Trisagion prayer, a central prayer of Orthodox Christianity. >In Orthodox Christian doctrine, only God is immortal by nature. Also, I needed a old reference that most would be familiar with. I'm sure the word 'god' was used before the Bible in Greek culture and before that. Immortal is usually used as a state of being and god used as a person with immortality and power. Immortal had never been used in the churches I have attended except as descriptive so I think it resonable to think that people on Mystara would describe Immortals pocessing immortality and then creating the noun to refer to them as a group. The word 'god' is a noun and I have no idea of its beginnings. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:26:04 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Kaviyd wrote: >Now we know how the Laterre inquisition got started.... >Besides, why would a Mage feel threatened by firearms? He can still make himself immune to bullets (by means of those amulets mentioned earlier, or even by normal cast spells) and use his own spells as "heavy artillery". Those mundanes with the arquebuses would fill the same role for him that zero level mercenaries fill for a high level fighter. Used correctly, firearms could actually enhance a Mage's strength. >In any case, Mages who do feel threatened by a firearms factory would have considerable trouble reaching it if it is built in Rockhome or Ylaruam -- and if they start blowing up buildings like that, there would soon be many more countries where wizards might be equally unwelcome. I say threaten because, in my games, mages aren't liked, they are tolarated. They preform a function that others find useful and are just seen as weird. No mage would allow anything within his area of influence (the court wizard may suggest to the king that these firearms are a threat to the kingship itself, etc) that would place him in even more danger than allowing the local village the means to hunt him down for another werewolf kill, dragon appearance, outbread of a disease, etc. Mages would recognize the equalizing aspect of firearms early in their production. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:36:51 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Kaviyd wrote: >It would have to be an item specifically blessed and dedicated for the purpose -- the old movie trick of holding two candlesticks together to make a cross wouldn't cut it. But the magic required to make a holy symbol is within the means of low level Clerics, so holy symbols are not too difficult to obtain. That candlestick trick is misrepresented. It's the faith the user has that he is, supposedly, directing through the symbol. Remember in the movie Fright Night, the vampire told Roddy McDowell that he had to have faith in the symbol (he was attempting to use a cross). The cleric uses an Immortal symbol but if his faith in his Immortal isn't strong then it's just an amulet. Others could, theoretically, use the symbols in the same way but their faith is usually in themselves more strongly than in an Immortal which is the opposite of a cleric's faith. >Actually I think it is just those of Lawful cults or Immortals -- but that still >leaves a lot of possibility. Would probably depend on how fearful a vampire is of an Immortal and not over that Immortal's sphere. >Morphail would probably be safe there -- with no true Clerics, none of Rad's symbols would be properly dedicated to him. But Morphail would most likely stay clear of those temples just in case. Because of the fear of angering an Immortal. Though I've heard of stories of where people were able to enter temples and kill all the clerics without the god doing anything. Maybe this is because the Immortal thought his clerics needed to be punished? Or just plain bad writing? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:41:39 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Kaviyd wrote: >But suppose he was born into a society where slavery is an accepted institution. He would know quite well that slavery was a bad thing, but he would also be aware that it would be counterproductive to go around killing all of the slave owners and setting the slaves loose. However, he would certainly take less extreme measures to ease the plight of slaves, work for their release, and/or persuade those in authority that slavery cannot be allowed to continue. I think so also. A paladin would work within the law firstly in order to rid his country of an evil. Remember, that law is as important to a paladin as good so he'd try to fulfill both as well as he could. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:46:23 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Kaviyd wrote: >That is why I suggested that the development of proper firearms was centuries away -- the developers would face all of the obstacles faced by their real world counterparts as well as the inertia of societies that are quite satisfied with using magic in its place. My argument was with those who said Mystara would "never" develop firearms -- there is a big difference between "never" and "not for a long time". I'd say never because of magic. If the NoS is draining magic then Glantri would be the first to suffer the most leaving the likelyhood of the NoS and it's destruction. This would allow magic to regain itself and thus making firearms unrealistic again. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:06:23 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 18:20:23 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >I say threaten because, in my games, mages aren't liked, they are >tolarated. They preform a function that others find useful and are just seen as weird. Then the mages are already in trouble -- fireballing factories is not likely to win any friends for the Mages. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:06:26 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) In a message dated 98-02-28 18:21:17 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >That candlestick trick is misrepresented. It's the faith the user has >that he is, supposedly, directing through the symbol. Again that depends on exactly what game mechanics you are using. D&D/AD&D specifies holy symbols strongly presented -- the wielder must have some amount of faith, but perfect faith appears to be unnecessary. Anyway, if faith alone were to be effective against vampires, then would that not mean that a character who truly believes that vampires cannot harm him would be immune to vampire attacks even if he lacks a holy symbol? I know of few DMs who would but that one. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:06:24 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 18:21:10 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >I'd say never because of magic. If the NoS is draining magic then >Glantri would be the first to suffer the most leaving the likelyhood of the NoS and it's destruction. This would allow magic to regain itself and thus making firearms unrealistic again. But Gaz 3 identified the irony here -- the only way to destroy the Nucleus of the Spheres involves time travel. Even though the Nucleus is draining magic from Mystara, there is no reason to believe that all of the magic will come back when the Nucleus explodes and devastates Glantri. In fact, both Gaz 3 and G:KoM say the exact opposite -- when the Nucleus explodes, magic is gone for good. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:23:42 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country >From: Kaviyd >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country >>I´m just wondering. The Red Curse Box as far as I can recall is >>mentioned from 1000 AC to 1010 AC!! >>... >The major effect of WotI on the Savage Coast was to spread the Red Curse from a relatively restricted area of the Savage Baronies to most of the region. Two changes would be required to move that material back in time: Sorry, but in the background section is a detaled story about the curse and its background. And the curse IS already widespread. But one thing is new: A founding and regrouping of the inheritors. Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:26:36 -0500 From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country wizzard@mail.intcom.de wrote: >>From: Kaviyd >>Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country >>>I´m just wondering. The Red Curse Box as far as I can recall is >>>mentioned from 1000 AC to 1010 AC!! >>>... >>The major effect of WotI on the Savage Coast was to spread the Red Curse from a relatively restricted area of the Savage Baronies to most of the region. Two changes would be required to move that material back in time: >Sorry, but in the background section is a detaled story about the curse and its background. And the curse IS already widespread. But one thing is new: A founding and regrouping of the inheritors. No. The Red Curse was originally limited to just the Savage Baronies. After the Week Without Magic in 1009, it spread to most of the rest of the Savage Coast. If you check the timeline given in the history of the Savage Baronies section in the on-line Savage Coast book, or "The Real Story" given under the section about the Curse and the Legacies, you'll find where this is stated. If you're using the earlier Red Steel boxed set, you'll find the same statements on pages 48-49 of the campaign book and page 7 of the "Lands of the Savage Coast" book. Michael. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:43:45 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Kaviyd wrote: >Then the mages are already in trouble -- fireballing factories is not likely to win any friends for the Mages. What kind of trouble? At present they are to be feared since only they control magic (though they may pay heed to the will of an Immortal or two). - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:53:47 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Kaviyd wrote: >But Gaz 3 identified the irony here -- the only way to destroy the Nucleus of the Spheres involves time travel. Even though the Nucleus is draining magic from Mystara, there is no reason to believe that all of the magic will come back when the Nucleus explodes and devastates Glantri. In fact, both Gaz 3 and G:KoM say the exact opposite -- when the Nucleus explodes, magic is gone for good. This is one thing I don't like about the NoS. It's draining the sphere of energy and it's destruction should stop that drainage allowing the sphere to recover. Mystara is the source of magic in the world not the NoS so it's existence or lack of existence shouldn't really have a bearing on that. Also, if the NoS explodes magic won't be released in the destruction but it stops the draining allowing it to recover. This is one problem of trying to tie magic and technology together since they are two completely different routes to a problem and only end up being a mish-mash of both making them seem less powerful than they are. In both cases, magic is being drained or will be destroyed based solely on the NoS. This seems like the goal is to remove magic from the world. Can there ever be a setting from TSR that allows magic to be and remain an important part of that world without it's disappearence in some future time? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:57:59 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Kaviyd wrote: >Again that depends on exactly what game mechanics you are using. D&D/AD&D specifies holy symbols strongly presented -- the wielder must have some amount of faith, but perfect faith appears to be unnecessary. Agreed. I don't think that this places more emphases on objects than people though but that is D&Ds chosen path. >Anyway, if faith alone were to be effective against vampires, then would that not mean that a character who truly believes that vampires cannot harm him would be immune to vampire attacks even if he lacks a holy symbol? I know of few DMs who would but that one. To me, a powerful cleric should be enough for a vampire to fear not if he remembered to bring his holy symbol along. This is one advantage of clerics to other classes and making the ability lay in a holy symbol is another depowering of them. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:26:08 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Box set On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 Neal Daskal wrote: >Excuse me! Demons' spell-casting ability was extremely limited. Fiends (with the IMHO silly assumption that they spent the TP first thing in the morning) cast any mortal spell at will. That makes them much more powerful than any mortal of any kind and more powerful than most of the other Exalteds. Aaron Alston's response to this observation was along the lines of "Well, I never use Timestop myself". Well, I do use Timestop and I'd say any well-played Fiend would do so as well. Nothing like it to cast some Meteor Swarms, Power Word Kills, and invoke some Call Others at will while your mortal opponents are frozen in time stasis. Drastically less powerful? But in D&D timestop does not allow spells that are instantaeous, such as meteor swarm or the others you mention. There is of course a way round this (which I found back when I was a power-gamer all those years ago) - by casting delayed blast fireball. :-) Anyway, I think the old demons are more powerful because of their power attacks and stuff (I don't remember very well since I haven't read the set for a while). Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:13:05 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Upon what criteria is slavery automatically evil? >> The whole concept is evil. Forceing others to do your bidding. Giveing them no choices, rights, or recognition.....is there anything goodly to salvage from slavery? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:52:04 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Inconu pontificated: >The whole concept is evil. Forceing others to do your bidding. Giveing them no choices, rights, or recognition.....is there anything goodly to salvage from slavery? What if bring down the slavery will bring down the entire nation (and cause millions of people to suffer for years to come)? What if slavery is punishment for murderers (in a society who felt excuting the murderers is unjust). What if the small number of oppressed people will bring greater good for the majority? As far as shades of gray goes, slavery is leaning heavily on the black side, but it still _could_ be in the gray. BTW, did my earlier post on what Paladin should behave when facing moral choices like this arrived on the list? I'm surprised to see no response to that post. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 02:13:15 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >What if bring down the slavery will bring down the entire nation (and cause millions of people to suffer for years to come)? What if slavery is punishment for murderers (in a society who felt excuting the murderers is unjust). What if the small number of oppressed people will bring greater good for the majority? As far as shades of gray goes, slavery is leaning heavily on the black side, but it still _could_ be in the gray. I can't imagine a reason hundreds of people would suffer from removing slavery. I certainly wouldn't want any prisoners to have the same access that slaves do. They've already proven they won't abide by the laws of the society. There is no reason for a society to oppress people to maintain a greater good. How can it be a greater good if only certain members of it are allowed to share in the greatness of the society? Greater good for them, sure but if that is the way the society is set up then the lower class must not be much above slaves themselves. This is the way I see Thyatis, lower class aren't treated as well as a slave that has a house and food. No wonder they've had problems with riots. There were some cultures where slavery was so common that slaves didn't take the power in numbers they had to rebel but these same cultures had very poor living conditions for the free poor. I think Rome was like this and had more laws protecting slaves than freemen. >BTW, did my earlier post on what Paladin should behave when facing moral choices like this arrived on the list? I'm surprised to see no response to that post. Not sure. I do think I replied to all the paladin posts so it may not have. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #131 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:23:42 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #132 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com Status: RO mystara-digest Sunday, March 1 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 132 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Ranks within Heldannic Knights Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Stuff... [MYSTARA] - Re: Placement Re: [MYSTARA] - Campaign starting points(was Re: your mail) [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Re: [MYSTARA] - Stuff... Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:32:38 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D << > Hm, you don't know the original D&D rules? If yes, I don't >believe that you would state this. I am familiar with the very original D&D rules, AD&D (1st and 2nd editions), and D&D (Basic/Expert/etc. and Rules Cyclopedia). The original D&D rules seemed to have more in common with the 1st edition AD&D rules than with any later set of D&D rules -- check the classes and level limits, for example. >> Thank you very much for the affirmation. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:32:45 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ranks within Heldannic Knights << The Heldannic Knights, on top of being very militaristic (obviously) strike me as one of the most hierarchical orders on Mystara. However, other than the highest levels, the exact composition of the hierarchy has never been detailed. Maybe one of our Germanic scholars could provide appropriate ranks and Hattian sounding names, to help us place HK characters within the hierarchy. >> Military ranks? General Generalleutnant Generalmajor Brigadegeneral Oberst Oberstleutnant Major Hauptmann Oberleutnant Leutnant ======================== Oberstabsfeldwebel Stabsfeldwebel Hauptfeldwebel/Oberfaehnrich Oberfeldwebel Feldwebel/Faehnrich Stabsunteroffizier Unteroffizier/Fahnenjunker ======================== Stabsgefreiter Hauptgefreiter Obergefreiter Gefreiter Soldat, Flieger, Pionier, Schuetze etc. (most not appliable) Admiral Vizeadmiral Konteradmiral Flottillenadmiral Kapitaen Fregattenkapitaen Korvettenkapitaen Kapitaenleutnant (Abbr.: "Kaleu") Oberleutnant zur See Leutnant zur See ============================= Oberstabsbootsmann Stabsbootsmann Hauptbootsmann/Oberfaehnrich zur See Oberbootsmann Bootsmann/Faehnrich zur See Obermaat Maat/Kadett ============================= Stabsgefreiter zur See Hauptgefreiter zur See Obergefreiter zur See Gefreiter zur See Matrose I hope this helps. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:32:44 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation << Ya know, that's a darn good question! Why haven't the Immortals placed Blackmoor in the HW? Can it be attributed to the fact that most Immortals place their "pet" cultures in the HW and that Blackmoor did not produce that many Immortals? >> I'm not sure, but IIRC I read once that Blackmoor blasted itself so thoroughly that the Immortals hadn't found anything to start with. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:32:41 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision and undead << << This is not was the basic rules tell about infravision... >> well, what did the basic rules tell? >> That you can see skeletons and furniture in a room, but not a hole in the floor. Warm objects appear red, cold ones blue. Footprints of a human would be light red. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:59:02 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 13:54:23 EST, you write: << In any case, Mages who do feel threatened by a firearms factory would have considerable trouble reaching it if it is built in Rockhome or Ylaruam -- and if they start blowing up buildings like that, there would soon be many more countries where wizards might be equally unwelcome. >> But would not the aspects of a firearm be seen by those same mundaners as magic. Societies such as Rockhome and Ylaruam that disdain magic users would look upon in horror at a person bearing the proverbial "bang stick". Magic and magic users are one thing, but such casters are rare and involve much effort to attain the ability. If anyone could pick up a firearm then that could be quite disturbing. The shock to a fantasy culture a firearm could bring is potentially hazzardous. 36th level fighters fleeing from a 2nd level fusilier tends to bother me. Mystara has a broad spectrum in regards of time periods. Guns would bring the more primitive peoples to an extreme disadvantage. I could see the dwarves of Rockhome creating and developing firearms. They have the skill and materials to do so. I also feel that they would use them more defensive lest those weapons fall into the hands of the enemy. I also tend to think the dwarves would use their firearms more rationally. Ylaruam is different. Firearm developement would be lacking. If and when they adopted such a weapon it would be out of need. That need being that other nations had taken them up in numbers. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:07:03 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 21:24:36 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >What kind of trouble? At present they are to be feared since only they >control magic (though they may pay heed to the will of an Immortal or two). It is quite simple -- you posited that they are tolerated, not liked. People may fear them, but they are also familiar enough with them to know some of their limitations -- especially if they give the people motive to hate them as well. There are many ways to kill a Mage -- and if all else fails, just wait until the next Kaldmont 28 and lynch him then. But most Mages, as you suggested, are intelligent -- and that means that they don't do things that make unnecessary enemies for them. In Glantri they might get away with taking ruthless measures against competitors -- elsewhere in the Known World they would doom themselves if they acted in such a vicious manner. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:07:01 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 21:22:48 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >Can there ever be a setting from TSR that allows magic to be and >remain an important part of that world without it's disappearence in some future time? Sure -- did you ever check out the Magitech supplement to the old _Amazing Engine_ game? That is a 20th century setting based on magic rather than technology. In that setting magic is in no danger of going away. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:07:06 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-01 03:34:04 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >I can't imagine a reason hundreds of people would suffer from removing >slavery. The former owners would suffer from the loss of free labor, but that would seem to be it. >I certainly wouldn't want any prisoners to have the same access that slaves do. They've already proven they won't abide by the laws of the society. It depends on the severity of the crime they are convicted of and how closely guarded the slaves are. For example, suppose most convicts are sentenced to slavery under "ordinary" conditions. Those who committed especially brutal crimes or who misbehaved as "ordinary" slaves would be sent to the mines or worse. Under those conditions you could have some very well behaved slaves. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:19:13 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-02-28 14:35:31 EST, Kaviyd writes: << In a message dated 98-02-28 12:04:53 EST, Alex295@aol.com writes: >Yes it is true that the gun is the great equalizer. However, if guns are >developed they should do so in a real time scale. Guns did not appear over night. The evolution was a methodical and slow process. That is why I suggested that the development of proper firearms was centuries away -- the developers would face all of the obstacles faced by their real world counterparts as well as the inertia of societies that are quite satisfied with using magic in its place. My argument was with those who said Mystara would "never" develop firearms -- there is a big difference between "never" and "not for a long time". >> That is my exact point. Firearms should be balanced. The first guns should be curious things. Their future use barely visible but with many handicaps. Each handicap must be analyzed and overcome. That is one of my beefs with RS/SC. The wheel lock pistols kinda leaped ahead a hundred years of developement. No touch hole to place an ember to to set off a charge. No unreliable matchlocks falling onto a firing pan of smoke powder. I would prefer that there be no guns in Mystara for the time being. IMO their presence takes away from the fantasy aspect. However, I am a realist. Some day a people will develope firearms. It is my hope that the process is more realistically slow. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 03:24:01 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Kaviyd wrote: >It is quite simple -- you posited that they are tolerated, not liked. People may fear them, but they are also familiar enough with them to know some of their limitations -- especially if they give the people motive to hate them as well. There are many ways to kill a Mage -- and if all else fails, just wait until the next Kaldmont 28 and lynch him then. I'd imagine such actions to be taken as a group rather than a single mage and to go about it in as secretively as possible. And any mage that doesn't take percations before Kaldmont 28, if he has caused too many problems is foolish. I'd expect the innocient mages to be the ones to suffer since the locals will probably not see the difference between one or the other. Hmm.. think the Day of Dread may become known as the Day of Hanging? ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:33:55 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stuff... << Arneson and some of the old guard (I mean really OLD guard -- not me even after 15 years at TSR) would know details about the Egg of Coot. We had talked about it ever so briefly, but unfortunately we never got to publish it. >> Unpublished material can be placed in the net, like "Orc's Head Peninsula". I hope that the stuff is not lost. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:33:51 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Placement << 1) Placement: Where a sentence derives meaning from the placement of words (for example the sentence "The dog bit the boy." is different in meaning than "The boy bit the dog.") >> This is ridiculous for someone whose native language is German. I'll translate your example: 1.: "Der Hund beisst den Jungen." "Den Jungen beisst der Hund." 2.: "Der Junge beisst den Hund." English is very restrictive in this point... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:33:53 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Campaign starting points(was Re: your mail) << Nope, not because of where I live. I live in Ireland (though I'm Scottish) and the only Celtic type lands are over at Robrenn and I don't use the savage coast (although it is very cool and would like to run stuff there eventually). It'll be interesting to find out if there's much of a difference between North America and Europe though. >> Don't forget Redstone... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:33:52 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: << I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? >> As a German I have to say no. There are three "German" cultures: Aalban is to small, Heldann is not developed and Hattias is awesome as it is a bad try to convert the Nazis into a humorous campaign. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:33:54 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot << The Egg of Coot was actually a person, as the original Blackmoor supplement details, if I recall aright (my Blackmoor is under a pile of something, somewhere). >> Right, and probably a mage (or a cleric?). He appeared and the Realm of the Egg was raised from the sea. The Egg is obviously a typical mega villain and he has hordes of slaves and soldiers and some powerful minions, the Princes of the Egg (or was it one prince?). Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:33:52 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mages of Alphatia << I thought of that too. But then I remembered that orcs and other humanoids were present as well (there was even a mountain range named "The Goblin Kresh") >> This was discussed a few weeks ago. Obviously the TSR material from the DA series and the HW is not consistent. Let us assume, that the goblins were a beastman tribe which developed into goblins, etc etc. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:33:50 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos << ><< Certainly in Darokin or Vestland for example, paladins would indeed be >rare. >> >Or of a complete different style... The Dragonlord trilogy mentions Darokin Knights. Maybe they were sort of paladins. >> Hm, I've read these books too, and the "Knights of the Streets" ("Knights of the Ways"?) was what I've meant. Imagine a Darokinian paladin who commits trading... Heck, imagine a FERENGI paladin... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:33:48 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in << A certain mountain-sized city called Citadel. Someone else mentioned its possibilities as a super-dungeon (Cthul I think?). >> I don't think that 10 levels were enough to describe Citadel. It would have to be 30 - 40 levels on maps of the size of a room. We're speaking about a city after all. Jamuga Khan "Cities? I like cities! Much bounty and they burn pretty fine." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 06:26:02 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in In a message dated 98-03-01 05:51:51 EST, you write: << A certain mountain-sized city called Citadel. Someone else mentioned its possibilities as a super-dungeon (Cthul I think?). >> "Ah yes, that monstrosity those of Bettellyn call a capitol. More like a way to rub the whole thing in our faces. Why on a clear day you can see that thing from the forts of the Randel Line. A pity that our arty peices cannot reach what our eyes doth see. A monstrosity I say. Probably a phallic thing." - Captain Deliandra War Mage of Randel. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 06:19:20 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stuff... In a message dated 98-03-01 05:51:25 EST, you write: >Arneson and some of the old guard (I mean really OLD guard -- not me even after 15 years at TSR) would know details about the Egg of Coot. We had talked >about it ever so briefly, but unfortunately we never got to publish it. >> Unpublished material can be placed in the net, like "Orc's Head Peninsula". I hope that the stuff is not lost. >> Khan That reminds me......I once heard (might have been on the List) that TSR had Almanacs drawn up all the way up to AC1015. Is this true? If so, it would be interesting to see how they compare with the Net Almanac. I'd also like to hear from the KW staff their visions of what they had in store for Mystara. Their opinions as to the progression the KW took. Oh and how about the process of developement itself. It could be interesting to see how KW nations changed from the drawing board to going into print. And so on. Just let us little folk get a peek into what went on. And a question for Bruce- Back in the olden days, did you or any of the KW staff ever even contemplate that there would be a group of folks like us to analyze the setting like we do? Going over details seeking explanations for every detail. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:24:44 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Inconu wrote: ><< Upon what criteria is slavery automatically evil? >> >The whole concept is evil. Forceing others to do your bidding. Giveing them no choices, rights, or recognition.....is there anything goodly to salvage from slavery? At the risk of starting a huge flame war, I think I should mention that the 'holy text' of one of the world's largest religions (i.e. Christianity) has extensive sections on not only how to treat one's own slaves, but on how to behave properly _AS_ a slave. - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Former sysop / netgod, now 'net bum. Do I look like someone who cares what GOD thinks?! / I have no webpage. / Curiosity killed the cat... Loathesome rituals BROUGHT IT BACK! / Will work for cash. / Insert Nifty ASCII graphic here. / Give me Slack, or give me Food. TANJ Lives! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:27:59 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? << Don't forget that Bruce Heard also wrote the entire Princess Ark and Known World Grimoire series as well as most of the _Champions of Mystara_ boxed set. Add that material in and he becomes the prime authority on Mystara. >> And the last defender of D&D... :-) Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:28:11 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country << No. I'm Italian, so I should start my campaign in the Principality of Sirecchia (Castelbianco?). Maybe even Kerendas would be OK. Actually I don't like none of the two... maybe because I don't like Italy very much :-) >> Be careful, Fabrizio. AFAIK Italians can be kicked out for saying this. :-) Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:28:07 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: D&D vs. AD&D << If you look through the rest of the rules I think you will find that OD&D and AD&D 1st edition have more in common with each other than either does with the later D&D rules. >> As I have stated earlier. Thank you very much. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:28:04 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D Paladins << At this point the most likely place to find "honorable" Hattians would be on the island of Hattias itself. Surely among the large number of Hattians there must be a fair number who resent the narrow minded views of such groups as the Storm Soldiers and are eager to show the rest of the world that there are good and honorable people among the Hattians. >> Yeah, Hattias! I really don't like what Aaron Allston wrote about it in DoE. He made the same mistake what made Star Trek "Pattern of Force" the worst episode of all. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:28:02 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision << So how can Baron Sulescu in Karameikos be still in charge? Has he never met King Stephan? Umbelievable IMO. >> Lord Sulescu is old enough to withstand sunlight... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:18:01 -0700 From: "Joe Gerber" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Infravision JamugaKhan wrote: ><< So how can Baron Sulescu in Karameikos be still in charge? Has he never met >King Stephan? >Umbelievable IMO. >> >Lord Sulescu is old enough to withstand sunlight... And, IIRC, Nosferatu arn't vulernable to sunlight, just disliking of it. Joe *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #132 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:44:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #133 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, March 2 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 133 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Rory Barbarossa Origins ( Was : I need help on X1 ) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) [MYSTARA] - Koruk Barbarossa or Rory Barbarossa Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Placement Re: [MYSTARA] - Rory Barbarossa Origins ( Was : I need help on X1 ) Re: [MYSTARA] - Koruk Barbarossa or Rory Barbarossa Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:41:13 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS Shin Chyang Yu meander fecklessly... >>The campaign I currently GM is pretty low powered at the moment, but that >>may change. You may have a point concerning wizards. The Wizards will always be limited by their HT score, which limits the number of/power of >>their spells. However, powerful mages are probaby quite likely to have a wide range of powerstones available which supply extra energy for spell >>casting.=20 >By using powerstones, it would still make them very different from a "similar level" mage in D&D, as a powerful GURPS mage strip of his powerstone will not be that powerful. While a D&D mage, as long as he still have all his spell in memorization, can still wreck an army even if buck naked :). There might also be conversion problem in terms of casting time and power of individual spells. As GURPS spells, as written, are gnereally more time consuming cast and less powerful. For those wanting to more closely simulate AD&D spellslingers in GURPS, cehck out this URL... http://www.io.com/~caroth/UnlimitedMana.htm Called the Unlimited Mana rules, it seperates spell casting from Fatigue. It alos allows for some very large spells to be cast. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:27:22 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 04:07 AM 3/1/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-01 03:34:04 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >>I can't imagine a reason hundreds of people would suffer from removing >>slavery. >The former owners would suffer from the loss of free labor, but that would seem to be it. Aww, gee...guess they'll actually have to PAY someone, or do it themselves. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:31:37 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sheild and Sword of Karameikos At 05:33 AM 3/1/98 EST, you wrote: >Imagine a Darokinian paladin who commits trading... This I could handle; as long as the paladin donated a good chunk of his profits to the church and worthy causes, and if the paladin followed a god involved in trade or money (Asterius, for example). >Heck, imagine a FERENGI paladin... After pondering this, I have come to the conclusion that you are a truly demented individual worthy of highest praise. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:42:19 +0100 From: "Tomás Sánchez" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rory Barbarossa Origins ( Was : I need help on X1 ) Matthew Levy wrote: >Lirdrium Arkayz is the sole survivor of the lost city of Tuma (B8), and a direct descendant of Arkenas, the Alphatian expatriate mage who encoded information about the radiance into Tuman law (just as you suggest). Somehow, this knowledge led to a conflict between Arkayz, the Kopru, and the Glantrians, the details of which are still beginning to emerge from the historical record. I'm beginning to feel dizzy. Tomás Sánchez Jr deckard@encomix.es *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:42:08 +0100 From: "Tomás Sánchez" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) Matthew Levy wrote: >All this is well and good but what about Barbarossa's first name, Rory? Wouldn't that seem to indicate Celtic origins? My guess is he was of Dunael descent from the IoD, but probably grew up somewhere like Ierendi (which was after all populated by ex-slaves, probably many from the IoD who had been captured by the Thyatins, just like Australia was colonized by Irish and Scottish convicts brought there by the English). I don't know which culture do the name "Rory" belongs to. If you're right then he should be Thyatian or Hattian. Which of those had celtic resemblances ? Which of the Isle of Dawn states could he belong to ? Tomás Sánchez Jr deckard@encomix.es *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:41:25 +0100 From: "Tomás Sánchez" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Koruk Barbarossa or Rory Barbarossa First of all i must thank everybody for the vast amount of answers old Rory caused. This thread started long ago when Matthew asked for help for his next gaming session that would be focused on The Island of Dread. Since then, Barbarossa's thread grew increasingly. Although, it went the wrong way. Koruk Barbarossa - ---------------- In 1492 some moors and jews expulsated fron Spain stablished themselves on Argelia and avenged their expulsion with acts of piracy. Fernando "El Católico" attacked and conquered the city of Argel in 1509. Koruk "Barbarroja", a famous turkish pirate, expulsed the spaniards from the country and implanted a despotic government of militarism and piracy that scared the christian countries for several years. Rory Barbarossa - --------------- Matthew told me the main inhabitants of Provincia Septentriona are of Alasiyan ancestry. If so, they should have kept much of their traditions alive although they should have being heavily influenced by their thyatian neighbours. Being Turkey the most occidental of the arabian countries i'd choose Provincia Septentriona as Rory's country. Caerdwicca has been a haven for pirates for a long time. So, it's easy to relate Caerdwicca to the city of Argel. Would it be possible for Rory Barbarossa to have been its governor ? I don't know if there exists a timeline for the Isle of Dawn. But i'd thank anyone who owns one to check it for me. I'll keep waiting for approval or alternative suggestions on the same thread. Thanks for your attention. Tomás Sánchez Jr deckard@encomix.es *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:03:10 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Placement In a message dated 98-03-01 05:49:20 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: ><< 1) Placement: Where a sentence derives meaning from the placement of words >(for example the sentence "The dog bit the boy." is different in meaning than "The boy bit the dog.") >> >This is ridiculous for someone whose native language is German. I'll translate your example: >1.: "Der Hund beisst den Jungen." >"Den Jungen beisst der Hund." >2.: "Der Junge beisst den Hund." >English is very restrictive in this point... What you have shown is that German is not a language based on placement or word order -- from your examples it is obvious that it is the noun suffixes or perhaps the articles and not the order in which the nouns appear that determines the meaning of the sentence. Would I be correct in guessing that "Den Hund beisst der Junge" is an acceptable alternative for your second sentence? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:03:10 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rory Barbarossa Origins ( Was : I need help on X1 ) i don't want to make you feel dizzy. perhaps it would help if i sent you my Tuma timeline when i get it revised again. basically it relates to the B4 project ... we are interested in tying together the scraps of canon info we can find in the B series modules, especially B4, 7, and 8 which detail particular locations/cultures which don't show up in later material very much. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Tomás Sánchez wrote: >Matthew Levy wrote: >>Lirdrium Arkayz is the sole survivor of the lost city of Tuma (B8), and a direct descendant of Arkenas, the Alphatian expatriate mage who encoded information about the radiance into Tuman law (just as you suggest). Somehow, this knowledge led to a conflict between Arkayz, the Kopru, and the Glantrians, the details of which are still beginning to emerge from the historical record. >I'm beginning to feel dizzy. >Tomás Sánchez Jr >deckard@encomix.es >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:17:51 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Koruk Barbarossa or Rory Barbarossa On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Tomás Sánchez wrote: >First of all i must thank everybody for the vast amount of answers old Rory caused. This thread started long ago when Matthew asked for help for his next gaming session that would be focused on The Island of Dread. Since then, Barbarossa's thread grew increasingly. Although, it went the wrong way. which way was the wrong way? >Koruk Barbarossa >---------------- >In 1492 some moors and jews expulsated fron Spain stablished themselves on Argelia and avenged their expulsion with acts of piracy. Fernando "El Católico" attacked and conquered the city of Argel in 1509. Koruk "Barbarroja", a famous turkish pirate, expulsed the spaniards from the country and implanted a despotic government of militarism and piracy that scared the christian countries for several years. this is interesting, but i think you may have missed the point of all of those posts and counterposts ... the name "Barbarossa" has been held by a variety of famous people in Mediterranean and European history, several of them pirates but also an emperor and apparently a singer (there is also a Willie Nelson movie, and the German invasion of Russia in 1941) ... So referring to this particular Turkish despot as a source for the character in X1 is unnecessary, arbitrary, and when we look at the rest of his background, just plain misleading. This is why I suggested that he be of mixed Dunael ancestry, probably of Thyatin or Ierendi citizenship, so that he could have a Celtic first name and be based out of Specularum in the 970's AC. >Rory Barbarossa >--------------- >Matthew told me the main inhabitants of Provincia Septentriona are of Alasiyan ancestry. If so, they should have kept much of their traditions alive although they should have being heavily influenced by their thyatian neighbours. Being Turkey the most occidental of the arabian countries i'd choose Provincia Septentriona as Rory's country. Hang on Hang on Hang on. I said the inhabitants spoke a language and had a culture related to the Alasiyans, and probably split off from them ethnically as far back as 1000 BC. I don't know which "traditions" they would have hung on to, since at this point they were still under the sway of the Nithian Empire, but I hypothesize that possibly SOME of them could have been converted to Ylari ways by Al-Kalim or later proselytizers. Anyway for the reasons I've said above Rory does not need to be based on the RW Turk, and anyway Turkey is NOT an Arabian country ... its language is wholly unrelated to Arabic, although the major religion is Islam. But the Mystaran country that is most clearly based on Turkey is Hule, which is a whole nother bag of problems. >Caerdwicca has been a haven for pirates for a long time. So, it's >easy to relate Caerdwicca to the city of Argel. Would it be possible for Rory Barbarossa to have been its governor ? I don't know if there exists a timeline for the Isle of Dawn. But i'd thank anyone who owns one to check it for me. i don't think there is one, but i am pretty sure caerdwicca doesn't have a governor and never did ... it's pretty independent. anyway i think it was built relatively recently by uthgaard mcrhomaag so i think it unlikely that barbarossa could have been from there (and the reasons you want to put him there seem tenuous at best). >I'll keep waiting for approval or alternative suggestions on the > same thread. Thanks for your attention. no problem. hope i haven't been too confrontational about this; let me know if you have any problems with what i've said. m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:23:56 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) >Matthew Levy wrote: >>All this is well and good but what about Barbarossa's first name, Rory? Wouldn't that seem to indicate Celtic origins? My guess is he was of Dunael descent from the IoD, but probably grew up somewhere like Ierendi (which was after all populated by ex-slaves, probably many from the IoD who had been captured by the Thyatins, just like Australia was colonized by Irish and Scottish convicts brought there by the English). >I don't know which culture do the name "Rory" belongs to. Rory is I believe an Irish name in the RW. If you're >right then he should be Thyatian or Hattian. No, no, no. The DotE sloppily spread the impression that Thyatins areDate: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:44:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #133 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com just a big grab bag of different RW nationalities ... clearly, we need to have names to distinguish these. The Celtic influences in Thyatis all come from the Dunael people, who live in Westrourke and Dunadale on the IoD, and who are related to the Robrennish people and to the Hinterlanders (see my Antalian genealogy article on DM's page). Thus Alexius Korrigan, for instance, is of Dunael ancestry. Rory Barbarossa's first name is clearly Dunael, and his last name is probably a nickname applied by Thyatins, not a family name. I actually have a campaign set in future Mystara (1030's AC) in which Rory's son Niall becomes an important military leader for the Ierendi Kingdom. m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:18:01 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) I actually have a campaign set in >future Mystara (1030's AC) in which Rory's son Niall becomes an important military leader for the Ierendi Kingdom. Does he happen to take 9 hostages? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:39:45 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) huh? i missed the reference on this one. I haven't worked out all the details of this campaign yet ... it's basically a variation upon X10 and other things which I ran long before the GAZ series came out (or WotI) and which I am now revamping to put into my timeline in the near future after the net almanacs, in hopes that i can share the information (there's a lot of it) in some way (notice i am straining really hard not to mention the c-word). m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >I actually have a campaign set in >>future Mystara (1030's AC) in which Rory's son Niall becomes an important military leader for the Ierendi Kingdom. >Does he happen to take 9 hostages? >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:02:01 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Prefered Mystaran Country Hi Michael, >No. The Red Curse was originally limited to just the Savage Baronies. After the Week Without Magic in 1009, it spread to most of the rest of the Savage Coast. If you check the timeline given in the history of the Savage Baronies section in the on-line Savage Coast book, or "The Real Story" given under the section about the Curse and the Legacies, you'll find where this is stated. If you're using the earlier Red Steel boxed set, you'll find the same statements on pages 48-49 of the campaign book and page 7 of the "Lands of the Savage Coast" book. OK, in general I honor to your wisdom. It says the Eastern parts which are indead mostly the Savage Baronies. But I´m also wondering because the Orders of the Ruby, ... are in existence since 999 AC (although under another name). They try to control the trade of cinnabryl and I would suggest that they will sooner or later attract scholars from other areas, at least some Herathians hence they "control" the curse that it doesn´t widerspread. Any suggestions?? Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:19:05 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << What if bring down the slavery will bring down the entire nation (and cause millions of people to suffer for years to come)? What if the small number of oppressed people will bring greater good for the majority? >> Since the act of oppressing is evil.....it's still an evil act. If the country has no choice, but to have slaves, then that's fine....but the country is still holding on to this act of evil. << What if slavery is punishment for murderers (in a society who felt excuting the murderers is unjust). >> Good point. If punishment was slavery then is it an evil act? Or an act of justification. The law puts the guilty party at the disposal of the accuseing party...or something to that effect. Maybe there are some cases in which slavery is not an entirely evil act. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:25:39 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << > I can't imagine a reason hundreds of people would suffer from removing >slavery. The former owners would suffer from the loss of free labor, but that would seem to be it. >> How about if a country had slavery for as long as thier history was.....say hundreds of years. If there was a push to abolish slavery....it would effect the whole country dramatically. There would surely be many protests and skirmishes....The decision would have to be made probably by the leader(s) of the country. Think of the decision that they have to make. Since all would be used to slavery, it would be very difficult to keep order of the people if it all was changed. It wouldn't be too simple of a task in this case IMO... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:29:24 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << At the risk of starting a huge flame war, I think I should mention that the 'holy text' of one of the world's largest religions (i.e. Christianity) has extensive sections on not only how to treat one's own slaves, but on how to behave properly _AS_ a slave. >> But that doesn't justify whether the act is evil or not. The act is selfish and exists only to lighten one's work at the cost of stripping another's rights away. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:45:53 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: I need help on X1 (Rory Barbarosa) King Niall of the Nine Hostages was the last king of a united Ireland. Incidently he was also an ancestor of mine. At 08:39 PM 3/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >huh? i missed the reference on this one. I haven't worked out all the details of this campaign yet ... it's basically a variation upon X10 and other things which I ran long before the GAZ series came out (or WotI) and which I am now revamping to put into my timeline in the near future after the net almanacs, in hopes that i can share the information (there's a lot of it) in some way (notice i am straining really hard not to mention the c-word). >m@2 >"You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" >- said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... >On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>I actually have a campaign set in >>>future Mystara (1030's AC) in which Rory's son Niall becomes an important military leader for the Ierendi Kingdom. >>Does he happen to take 9 hostages? >>*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:47:18 EST From: Neal Daskal Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: healing via resting >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:58 EST, you wrote: >What were the rules for resting to heal damage? What do most people use? I have set up a web page at http://people.delphi.com/ndaskal/dnd/rules.html which answers this question and describes some other rules that were omitted in error when the boxed sets were printed starting in 1983. These are TSR canon from a rulebook, not a module. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:21:57 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-01 14:48:03 EST, you write: >I can't imagine a reason hundreds of people would suffer from removing >slavery. <> Not only the loss of free labor, but also an immediate influx of what had been a subserviant people. What do you do with all of these folk? Send them back to their native lands? No likely. Most will of been a slave for generations. And lack any knowledge of their nation of origin. All will have adjusted to their masters' society. Language, diet, and way of life all factor in. Only the recently harvested slaves will have a chance to migrate home. The social implications are huge. Freed slaves have to be given some class of society. How the native born former masters see them is suspect. Some will accept them. Some will despise them. Some will unload self loathing upon them, giving them whatever they want out of supposed guilt (political correctness). The economics devastating. The loss of cheap labor would hurt the economy. The hurt would worsen as the recently freed would compete for jobs just like their former masters. Unemployment would rise. Most former slaves would be hired to do minial tasks, simular to what they did under bondage. The difference being they earned some cash. But even income is questionable. How is a slave to manage his or her finances. They never had to do so before. The problem with a mass freeing of slaves is in the initial transition. Nations such as Alphatia would find emanicipation quite difficult. The slaves would also. Anyone not of Alphatian stock would be immediately tagged as a former slave. However, finding jobs may be easier. The Alphatians would need a ready work force to take up the slack. Nations such as Thyatis may have an easier time. A freed slave would not be as readily recognizables as its Alphatian counterpart. But finding employment would be a mixed bag. IMO unemployment is pretty high in Thyatis City. The slums and citizens on the dole attest to a lack of employment. Most slaves would probably find employment with their former masters or join the discontent in the slums living off the allotted foodstuffs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:09:57 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >Nations such as Thyatis may have an easier time. A freed slave would not be as >readily recognizables as its Alphatian counterpart. But finding employment would be a mixed bag. IMO unemployment is pretty high in Thyatis City. The slums and citizens on the dole attest to a lack of employment. Most slaves would probably find employment with their former masters or join the discontent in the slums living off the allotted foodstuffs. In fact, that is why I believe the Thyatians give their slaves freedom under certain conditions. The possibility, no matter how slight, is there to work toward and serves as a kind of pressure valve against the frustrations of the slaves. And remember that slaves are considered less property more a class in Thyatis. They do have certain protections under the law. But yes, a nation of suddenly freed slaves will certainly suffer. The slaves themselves will suffer, which will give any paladin some pause... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:14:05 -0600 From: "Cecil Cosman" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Responding to the message of Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:59:02 EST from Alex295 : >I could see the dwarves of Rockhome creating and developing firearms. They >have the skill and materials to do so. I also feel that they would use them >more defensive lest those weapons fall into the hands of the enemy. I also >tend to think the dwarves would use their firearms more rationally. Actualy, if you are going to use firearms the most obvious place would be the merry pirate seas. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:43:23 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >I see it as the recognition by Immortals that they are not gods. A little humility on their part... I see no such "humility" on the part of published Immortal behavior--they're willing to obliterate a continent over a tiff, after all. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:44:14 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >This thread is going nowhere. Immortals and God have no relationship...etymological or otherwise. You make the claim, but the claim cannot be proven either way. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #133 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:53:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #134 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Monday, March 2 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 134 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:48:26 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >But suppose he was born into a society where slavery is an accepted institution. He would know quite well that slavery was a bad thing, but How would he know that slavery was a bad thing? Wouldn't the manner in which slavery was practiced in that society make it a bad thing or not? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:50:27 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Also, I needed a old reference that most would be familiar with. I'm sure the word 'god' was used before the Bible in Greek culture and So? I was giving an example whereing "Immortal" and "God" were synonymous. >before that. Immortal is usually used as a state of being and god used as a person with immortality and power. Immortal had never been used in the churches I have attended except as descriptive so I think it So? The Orthodox Liturgy dates back to the 4th century. How old are the liturgies in your churches? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:53:26 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Not sure where this is going but I'd like to say that any system that attempts to remove the right of basic human needs and desires and give them to another is evil. Some were treated well but that was only at Like abortion, eh? You see where this is going? You say "Institution X is inherently evil". It is very easy to find some institution or another wherein we will not be able to get general consensus on whether or not it is an evil act. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:54:00 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-03-02 10:30:05 EST, you write: << > I could see the dwarves of Rockhome creating and developing firearms. >They >have the skill and materials to do so. I also feel that they would use them >more defensive lest those weapons fall into the hands of the enemy. I also >tend to think the dwarves would use their firearms more rationally. Actualy, if you are going to use firearms the most obvious place would be the merry pirate seas. >> Problems with the Merry Pirates having guns 1) Merry Pirates originated from the Traldar. The Traldar did not have the technology. 2) Spell of Preservation would prevent the developement of firearms. 3) Only known peoples bearing firearms are of the Savage Coast. 4) Imagine Captain Kidd going against ancient Egypt or the Greeks of old. Not to mention the Aztecs. Do the Conquistadors ring any bells? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:53:57 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Now if we could isolate where they have had the chance to compare themselves to true gods, it may tell more of their origins. What evidence do you have that they must have done so? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:54:46 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 10:43 AM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>I see it as the recognition by Immortals that they are not gods. A little humility on their part... >I see no such "humility" on the part of published Immortal behavior--they're willing to obliterate a continent over a tiff, after all. Notice I used the modifier "little". Every sentient being, no matter how arrogant, feels a need to molify his conscience every now and then. Whether it is an Alphatian who says "It is better for the slave to live in this manner" or the Immortal who says "I am not a god nor do I claim to be" such justifications make us feel better. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:58:04 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: ><< Upon what criteria is slavery automatically evil? >> >The whole concept is evil. Forceing others to do your bidding. Giveing them no choices, rights, or recognition.....is there anything goodly to salvage from slavery? Yeah! That's as evil as imprisoning murderers and denying them *their* rights. Who is to say that a Paladin must be a democrat? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:00:32 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >I can't imagine a reason hundreds of people would suffer from removing slavery. I certainly wouldn't want any prisoners to have the same Then you don't know the first thing about history. Rome, Greece, all of the Classical world with its enlightenment and wisdom, was based upon widespread institutionalized slavery. The problem is that most Americans, being utterly ignorant of history, presume that all slavery must be chattel slavery--which is how it was practiced in the USA. Slaves *DO* have legal rights under most slavery systems. Their liberty and property rights were restricted, but in most slave-holding society, *EVERYBODY* had some level of restriction on those particular rights, slaves only moreso than others. Only the American version did not have this feature. Don't base your analyses upon ignorance. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:14:42 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 10:44 AM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Daly wrote: >>This thread is going nowhere. Immortals and God have no relationship...etymological or otherwise. >You make the claim, but the claim cannot be proven either way. I was referring to the attempt to define Christian God in terms of the game. Can't be done. There is no relationship. Besides that, many of us may well find an attempt to do so rather offensive. Let's leave real world religions out of Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:17:54 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >But that doesn't justify whether the act is evil or not. The act is selfish and exists only to lighten one's work at the cost of stripping another's rights away. The idea of "inalienable rights" to which all people are equally heir, is an 18th-century invention, with some precursors in the 17th century. Presuming that a paladin, a member of a hierarchical aristocratic or monarchical society, would have a post-Enlightenment concept of "rights", does irreparable violence to the very idea of a hierarchical aristocratic or monarchical society. Such a group of "paladins" would never be allowed to form in the first place--they would obviously be too chaotic in their temperment, devoted to utterly undermining the underpinnings of hierarchical aristocratic or monarchical societies. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:19:49 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >In fact, that is why I believe the Thyatians give their slaves freedom under certain conditions. The possibility, no matter how slight, is there Both Roman and Greek law recognized processes of manumission. Manumission also exists under Islamic slave codes. The practice of chattel slavery is a modern invention, given its finest "flower" by the culture of the USA, who made it racial, permanent, and as pernicious as it could become. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:21:19 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-02 10:26:59 EST, you write: << In fact, that is why I believe the Thyatians give their slaves freedom under certain conditions. The possibility, no matter how slight, is there to work toward and serves as a kind of pressure valve against the frustrations of the slaves.>> I agree. I like the idea of a slave owner holding the slaves freedom as incentive for good service. I also like to have slave owners freeing slaves once age begins to show or are injured and their usefullness slackens. Saves on taxes. Those taxes could be used to purchase a replacement. The freed older slaves could also account for much of the residents in the slums. <> Regardless of their class, a slaves life is described as hard in DotE. Malnutrition and mistreatment are apparent. And Thyatian Law is a farce as it only applies to those that allow it to be applied. Laws only apply to those that cannot afford to avoid their affects. << But yes, a nation of suddenly freed slaves will certainly suffer. The slaves themselves will suffer, which will give any paladin some pause... >> Agreed. I think the problems a paladin faces is in the definition of lawful itself. Whose laws apply? Morally lawful? For a people such as Alphatians and even Thyatians slavery is an everyday thing. They see nothing as being wrong with it. It is a part of their history of conquest. Legally Lawful? Again the Alphatians and Thyatians. Does that mean that neither Alphatian nor Thyatis has paladins? No certainly not. IMO a paladin native of either land could be a paladin despite not despising slavery. However, the treatment of slaves should be a condition. Even the Immortal the paladin serves is questionable in this equation. Take Vanya. She was a slave in life for a period. You would think she would hate slavery. Yet, she has few qualms of forcing her a conquerers will upon a defeated people. Aye the spoils of war. It was only when her Knights used their conquest for personal gain did she put her exhalted foot down. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:31:42 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 11:00 AM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>I can't imagine a reason hundreds of people would suffer from removing slavery. I certainly wouldn't want any prisoners to have the same >Then you don't know the first thing about history. Rome, Greece, all of the Classical world with its enlightenment and wisdom, was based upon widespread institutionalized slavery. >The problem is that most Americans, being utterly ignorant of history, presume that all slavery must be chattel slavery--which is how it was practiced in the USA. Slaves *DO* have legal rights under most slavery systems. Their liberty and property rights were restricted, but in most slave-holding society, *EVERYBODY* had some level of restriction on those particular rights, slaves only moreso than others. Only the American version did not have this feature. I agree with most of your post. But your generalization about American slavery being the only institution to remove the basic human rights of slaves and declare them property is false. Such slavery still exists in Africa. But this thread is starting to get away from topic. You are correct to point out that there were other slavery models all through history. I think we can all agree as modern thinkers that slavery in any form is wrong. But I think we can also come to an understanding that, hindsight being what it is, those people lived in their own time period and culture. It is entirely possible that a paladin existing all his life in a nation that practices slavery, may be entirely blind to the ill. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:40:02 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 11:19 AM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>In fact, that is why I believe the Thyatians give their slaves freedom under certain conditions. The possibility, no matter how slight, is there >Both Roman and Greek law recognized processes of manumission. Manumission also exists under Islamic slave codes. The practice of chattel slavery is a modern invention, given its finest "flower" by theDate: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:53:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #134 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com >culture of the USA, who made it racial, permanent, and as pernicious as it could become. Maybe we were just a little more honest... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:00:07 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers I don't think the following post of mine showed up. So I'm posting it again. I apologize if it is a duplicate. Daly pontificated: >It is tragic indeed when a paladin finds himself stuck between doing "the right thing" and doing what authority says is the right thing. The proper decision in my never to be humble opinion, is to go ahead and do the right thing and then present himself to the authorities afterward. I don't see much of a problem for the paladin here. My interpretation of paladins is that they are basicly the sword of their god (or immortal, I use the terms interchangably). Therefore, they will always do what they believe is right based on their faith. And they will continue to have their power as long as their god agrees on what they are doing. If this meant they have to go against the King or even higher authority within the church, then they will do so. This also meant that paladins among different faith might not have the same interpretion of what is good. For example, the paladin follows the immortal of justice and revenge (can't spell her name), will probably lean more on the side of law, while paladin follows more peaceful immortals might even have the disadventage of can not kill or can not start a fight. In the computer game Ultima, in the character generation, one of the questions asked is something like you have been tracking a killer for years, trying to bring him to justice. After you find him, you found out he is a good person now, and is the only support for a little girl, what would you do. If faced with this situation, the first paladin I described above will bring him back for trial, while the the second one might let him go. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:03:19 -0600 From: "Cecil Cosman" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Responding to the message of Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:54:00 EST from Alex295 : >In a message dated 98-03-02 10:30:05 EST, you write: ><< > I could see the dwarves of Rockhome creating and developing >>firearms. >>They >>have the skill and materials to do so. I also feel that they would use >>them >>more defensive lest those weapons fall into the hands of the enemy. I also >>tend to think the dwarves would use their firearms more rationally. >Actualy, if you are going to use firearms the most obvious place would be >the merry pirate seas. >> >Problems with the Merry Pirates having guns 1) Merry Pirates originated from the Traldar. The Traldar did not have the >technology. >2) Spell of Preservation would prevent the developement of firearms. 3) Only known peoples bearing firearms are of the Savage Coast. 4) Imagine Captain Kidd going against ancient Egypt or the Greeks of old. Not >to mention the Aztecs. Do the Conquistadors ring any bells? Well, I didn't say it would be practical. But it could be done. A new group of pirates that use firearms could be added to the HW. Adding new pirate culture to the Merry Pirates has been done before. The spell of preservation would see to it that the other persons would still be able to combat the pirates with their firearms. How much different would firearms be? I mean the blacklore elves have those torch things. I could see the pirates with a similar fire arm type weapon. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:33:37 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 12:00 PM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >I don't think the following post of mine showed up. So I'm posting it again. I apologize if it is a duplicate. >Daly pontificated: >>It is tragic indeed when a paladin finds himself stuck between doing "the right thing" and doing what authority says is the right thing. The proper decision in my never to be humble opinion, is to go ahead and do the right thing and then present himself to the authorities afterward. >I don't see much of a problem for the paladin here. My interpretation of paladins is that they are basicly the sword of their god (or immortal, I use the terms interchangably). Therefore, they will always do what they believe is right based on their faith. You are speaking more of a universal ideal of paladinhood. What he should do. Remember that we are talking about fallible human individuals. They make tragic mistakes. My point is that this is one of the things that makes them interesting. >they will continue to have their power as long as their god agrees on what they are doing. If this meant they have to go against the King or even higher authority within the church, then they will do so. Maybe so, but when any individual makes a break with the institution that supports him there is some difficulty. It is an undeniably difficult thing to go against one's king or church. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:25:30 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << How would he know that slavery was a bad thing? Wouldn't the manner in which slavery was practiced in that society make it a bad thing or not? >> It definately does depend on the manner of which slavery was practiced. However, most means of slavery stripped slaves of most/all rights and they were not looked on, as anything greater than how one would see a pet. In certain practices of slavery....they may have not been so evil, but for the general purpose of even the idea, the whole concept of slavery was realized to be evil and ended up haveing to be abolished. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:28:44 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Yeah! That's as evil as imprisoning murderers and denying them *their* rights. Who is to say that a Paladin must be a democrat? >> No, it's not the same. Imprisonment is nothing like slavery. One is justice being served to offenders of the law. The other may be under the same restrictions, but there are no offenders. If, like Jamunga said, imprisionment terms were slavery then it wouldn't be so much evil as it would be justice. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:36:04 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << The problem is that most Americans, being utterly ignorant of history, presume that all slavery must be chattel slavery--which is how it was practiced in the USA. Don't base your analyses upon ignorance. >> So, you're saying that most Americans are ignorant of history, and obviously have nothing to back this up? Okay, now who's the ignorant one? << Their liberty and property rights were restricted, but in most slave-holding society, *EVERYBODY* had some level of restriction on those particular rights, slaves only moreso than others. Only the American version did not have this feature.>> Exactly. Their liberty was restricted. No freedom. That was just one of the things they got taken from them. This arguement was originally about whether this was an evil concept or not....and i really think everyone has voiced thier opinion on this. So, lets move on from this thread. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:46:35 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Does that mean that neither Alphatian nor Thyatis has paladins? No certainly not. IMO a paladin native of either land could be a paladin despite not despising slavery. However, the treatment of slaves should be a condition. Definately. A paladin can't right every single last wrong in a country. Slavery is just one of many issues that the Paladin can fight politically. It probably won't be too often that a Paladin will base his work on slavery. That's what politicians are for. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:50:33 +1000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 Re: Giants and Giant-kin Having brought up this topic and having considered it privately since I have come to some conclusions. Firstly some clarifications >what were the original races of Mystara? if you don't mind reading NON CANON >EXPLANATIONS (can I say that Leroy?), check out Mystaros' Blackmoor timeline >on your own website, it talks about the history of Giants in the period >between Y'hog and Blackmoor. Firstly. Thanks Matthew but I was looking for the more legitimate explanation if one happened to already be in existence, even though James' is pretty fun nevertheless. >As for giant-kin, they are not mentioned in any pre-AD&D Mystara product >-- no mystery there, as these are AD&D and not D&D creatures. And secondly. I did not mean giant-kin in the AD&D term per se, I generally do not prescribe to the "Advancement" of the Mystara campaign. What I did mean by the term giant-kin were those humanoid races who are taller than the average humanoid races but don't have giant in the title, for example Hephaestons, Athachs, Stalwarts, Sollux and Cyclops and whatever else I've managed to forget including Fomorians that have begun to populate Mystara post-AD&D. But aside from all that there is still the question of where these creatures came from. There are a number of solutions. 1) They evolved from the beastmen naturally. This does not seem to be likely given the height range of beastmen as per the Hollow World Players Manual giving beastmen a height range between 3 to 8 feet - never mind that as per GAZ10 ogres can grow up to just over 10 feet. But as pointed out by David most giants are more intelligent and better looking than the known species that evolved from beastmen - this is something that I personally find as a fairly convincing argument. Although of course using this argument one would suggest that cyclops and atachs could well have evolved from beastmen. Of course the most convincing argument that giants evolved from beatsmen seems to be that it is remembered that this was written somewhere although I am still unable to find this. The closest I've come to is in GAZ7 which says that giants were part of the humanoid races that formed the Great Horde. 2) They evolved from Garls My problem with this one is that Garls really aren't a Mystaran race, they're an Aelotian race, hmm ... from the planet Aelos. Of course this might not be convincing for some it is just my humble opinion. 3) They evolved from elemental drakes because they have the ability to turn into pretty poor imitations of four of the giant types. I guess that this is possible although I always considered this ability moreso as a defence mechanism of the creature turning into something that was in its local vicinity - not merely turning into something other than itself which just as alien as itself to begin with. 4) They evolved from some Jotunheim-Northlands-borrowingtoomuchfromEarth history-Surtuk-Norsethingy-neverreallyaconvincingstoryinthefirstplace type of thingy. I'm not really bagging Norse culture here, there's just some parts of the Northern Reaches gazetteer that I didn't really like and this clouds my judgement with regards to other related things. The only problem with saying that Giants evolved along the above means is that it places perhaps too high an importance on the whole Norse thing - more of an importance than even GAZ7 seemed to give to it all. 5) They were created as a servitor race to one of the prehistory races of Mystara. This idea is the one taken by James and is a very convincing argument, it also has some precedence with the lizard-kin being created in a similar manner by the Carnifex. 6) They were simply created by some enterprising immortal. Perhaps the dullest of answers although it is probably the most convincing. So after all that diatribe and opinion what is the answer. There doesn't seem to be an official one therefore non-official ones would need to be called for. So far we have - - James Mishlers answer that can be found on his own homepage or as graciously pointed out my own. - - an aspect of the Norse idea which is valid, just not my cup'o'tea. - - or some other hybrid idea. Something that seems likely to me is that atachs and cyclops evolved from beastmen. This stretches the height range of beatsmen a bit further still but hey they already fail in regards to tall ogres. Getting an idea from these creatures or just on their own an immortal decided to create your more basic stone giants and hill giants and the like. Then some of the more elementally aligned immortals deciding that this idea of bigger humans was a good idea created their own respective giants such as Fire, Frost, Storm and the like. Perhaps as part or prior to this process creatures such as the Sollux were created. Another idea I just thought of which borrows from the servitor idea and also from the Kubbitts is that the giants were created by mortal creatures. Maybe some races of earlier cultures wanted to create a race of tall stronger humanoids to do some of the grunt work for them. As a result of this the Stalwarts were created. The Stalwarts probably broke free from this arrangement given time, however the immortals seeing this idea decided that the planet perhaps needed races of giant creatures. They therefore created the various giant races in a manner such as described above. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #134 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, March 2 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 135 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:50:23 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << It is entirely possible that a paladin existing all his life in a nation that practices slavery, may be entirely blind to the ill. I agree. they could be blind to it, obviously powerless to fight it, or even just have greater goals to accomplish. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:14:34 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >Exactly. Their liberty was restricted. No freedom. That was just one of the things they got taken from them. This arguement was originally about whether this was an evil concept or not....and i really think everyone has voiced thier opinion on this. So, lets move on from this thread. I disagree. This coversation has actually not gone anywhere. What you have been discussing is whether you think slavery is evil or not. I assume that most people on this list find slavery evil. However, who are we to judge whats evil or good? Face it people. These concepts are totally subjective. If you want to give those terms an absolute sense, which is your own, then go ahead. But I think it will remove a lot of realism from your campaign setting. And you might annoy a couple of players if their opinions differ slightly from yours. I would argue strongly that Thyatians in general dont see slavery as a bad thing. Its just a part of life. Self evident rights is something out of this world and is unheard of in Mystara. This is all linked with alignment I suppose. Seriously, What has the moral of the 90's got to do in a medeival/rennessance setting? I belive this was what bmj10 was arguing from the start. Thaks to John Yu for presenting a justification for slavery. I enjoyed that mail. Sincerely Håvard PS: John Yu: Wish I could tell you how to change your translation system, but you'd better check with some experts on that one. Sorry. *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:17:12 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 >2) They evolved from Garls >My problem with this one is that Garls really aren't a Mystaran race, they're an >Aelotian race, hmm ... from the planet Aelos. Of course this might not be >convincing for some it is just my humble opinion. This is a good point. However, Aelos is remarkably similar to Mystara in certain ways. That fact is a focal point for the module "Where Chaos Reigns". Therefore it is a perfectly reasonable idea. 7) They are visitors from another world. Why can only small human-type creatures come from offworld via gates and magical ships? Why not giants? Especially the "greater giants". And as for the cyclops...I tend to favor the idea that the Alphatians brought them. The description of their homeworld in "Into the Maelstrom" favors this. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:43:24 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, stan wrote: >Re: Giants and Giant-kin >4) They evolved from some Jotunheim-Northlands-borrowingtoomuchfromEarth >history-Surtuk-Norsethingy-neverreallyaconvincingstoryinthefirstplace type of >thingy. Sorry if I didn't make this convincing enough. I guess I didn't put enough effort into into it in that mail I wrote about it. I have however given this quite some thought, so if anyone are interested I may write more about it in the future. >I'm not really bagging Norse culture here, there's just some parts of the >Northern Reaches gazetteer that I didn't really like and this clouds my judgement >with regards to other related things. The only problem with saying that Giants >evolved along the above means is that it places perhaps too high an importance >on the whole Norse thing - more of an importance than even GAZ7 seemed to >give to it all. Probably. My theories involve a lot of that stuff, which ofcourse may be just what some giants believe anyway. My theories involves a larger aspect of Mystara, ie the creation of the Multiverse and that kind of stuff. Its greatly inspired by Norse Mythology, and thus it makes sense to relate it to the Northern Reaches gazetteer. These are just some thoughts I've been having about my own campaign. I'd be interested in seeing other theories aswell. (seen Mystaros' one and trying to incorporate most of those ideas with my own) Anyway, I'm rambling now. Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:39:19 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >I was referring to the attempt to define Christian God in terms of the game. Can't be done. There is no relationship. Besides that, many of us I made no such attempt--I merely pointed to one example wherein at least somebody identifies "immortal" and "god" exclusively. For the record, I am an Orthodox Christian, which is why I was familiar with that bit of the Liturgy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:43:48 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Alex295 wrote: >Does that mean that neither Alphatian nor Thyatis has paladins? No certainly not. IMO a paladin native of either land could be a paladin despite not despising slavery. However, the treatment of slaves should be a condition. Exactly. An Alphatian or Thyatic Paladin would be an absolute stickler for the humane treatment of slaves. "Slaves are people, too." He would insist that slaves be given adequate rest time, not be subject to "animal punishments" (like flogging), be given adequate food, clothing, and shelter, etc. Thus, the Paladin would be seen as a fairly stuffy sort, willing to undergo "needless expense" for the sake of slaves, perhaps even going so far as to get himself into trouble with local authorities when he challenges the way a local bigwig treats slaves. Now, and Alphatian or Thyatic *Avenger* could very well get it up his backside that slavery is in and of itself evil and go around attempting to obliterate the entire legal structure and social institution. The Avenger would be seen as a threat to the very foundations of society and would be treated as such. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 98 12:41:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers ><< Upon what criteria is slavery automatically evil? >> >The whole concept is evil. Forceing others to do your bidding. Giveing them no choices, rights, or recognition.....is there anything goodly to salvage from slavery? My boss at work forces me to do his bidding. As a contractor, I am locked into a period of service; I have no choices, rights, or recognition like employees do. Being a contractor is really like a limited period of partial slavery. Sure I could quit ... or a slave could run away ... but running causes trouble, and why run when you have a good thing going? Besides, I chose to sign up. In ancient times, people sometimes voluntarily sold themselves into slavery, generally for the purpose of paying a debt, but sometimes just because they were poor and needed to feed their families. To such a person, slavery is better than the alternative. Also, in some cultures slaves were treated better than hired servants, since they were an investment. A trusted slave might be placed in charge of a master's entire estate and highly honored. Slavery was sometimes only for a period of time, like 10 years or something; when a slave was sold, the price was adjusted according to how much time was left in the "contract." Yes, involuntary slavery is usually wrong (except when imposed as a punishment.) But to say that slavery is ALWAYS wrong is a pretty broad statement that is hard to support. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:45:10 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >I agree with most of your post. But your generalization about American slavery being the only institution to remove the basic human rights of slaves and declare them property is false. >Such slavery still exists in Africa. Bugger--I thought that African countries had finally adopted Islamic slave law. Too bad. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:50:16 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >Definately. A paladin can't right every single last wrong in a country. Somebody who goes around "righting wrongs" regardless of the law isn't a Paladin, he's an Avenger. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:54:58 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>Now if we could isolate where they have had the chance to compare themselves to true gods, it may tell more of their origins. >What evidence do you have that they must have done so? Not sure if I can remember all this message of mine but I think I was answering the one that said Immortals didn't call themselves gods because they knew they weren't. The only way to know they weren't is to have meet gods. Now, if we can find out this about this meeting, it might tell us a little about they're origin. So, either they've meet gods and realized they aren't gods or they haven't meet gods and assume they are gods but just call themselves Immortals. That clear it up? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:58:41 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Inconu pontificated: >>BTW: can anyone use a holy symbol against vampires or just clerics? >Vampires should fear any holy symbol, as they know it can hold power over them. However, only priests may actually make use and display thier power through their holy symbol. In actuallity, i beleive that if the Vampire is old enough to understand whom may use and whom may not use the symbol, then they'll make a decision based on that, but juvenille vamps (0 - 50ish years of being undead)should fear a holy symbol displayed by anyone...unless of course there is reason otherwise... I would say a vamp would only fear holy symbol displayed by someone who have faith in the symbol. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:57:54 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >Yeah! That's as evil as imprisoning murderers and denying them *their* rights. Hey, don't break the law and we have no problem ;) >Who is to say that a Paladin must be a democrat? Actually, they remind me of republicans with their conservatism. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:10:38 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >The idea of "inalienable rights" to which all people are equally heir, is an 18th-century invention, with some precursors in the 17th century. Presuming that a paladin, a member of a hierarchical aristocratic or monarchical society, would have a post-Enlightenment concept of "rights", does irreparable violence to the very idea of a hierarchical aristocratic or monarchical society. Such a group of "paladins" would never be allowed to form in the first place--they would obviously be too chaotic in their temperment, devoted to utterly undermining the underpinnings ofDate: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:20:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #135 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com >hierarchical aristocratic or monarchical societies. We're straying from the topic. The churches of the Known World have laws and we (at least) have those and their beliefs. This would be where the paladins would find their paths. Remember, this is a world where there is more than one race with sentience. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:49:14 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >Like abortion, eh? A whole other mess. >You see where this is going? You say "Institution X is inherently evil". It is very easy to find some institution or another wherein we will not be able to get general consensus on whether or not it is an evil act. I think history shows that slavery is evil. In America, we are still suffering (as a nation) from this act of our past. If it had been a good or neutral act then the problems may not have festered for more than a hundred years now. But every culture is different and maybe the effects aren't so bad. The only way we can define evil is to think as if the act had been committed against ourselves. This is why we consider murder, robbery and slavery evil. Not because of what it does to a society but because of what it does to ourselves. I just can't see any good coming out of a nation that uses slavery. Can someone name a few that aren't selfish reasons? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:06:37 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >Then you don't know the first thing about history. Rome, Greece, all of the Classical world with its enlightenment and wisdom, was based upon widespread institutionalized slavery. >The problem is that most Americans, being utterly ignorant of history, presume that all slavery must be chattel slavery--which is how it was practiced in the USA. Slaves *DO* have legal rights under most slavery systems. Their liberty and property rights were restricted, but in most slave-holding society, *EVERYBODY* had some level of restriction on those particular rights, slaves only moreso than others. Only the American version did not have this feature. Well, actually, there's another email coming your way that states that I did believe that Rome and such had systems in place that did give better rights to slaves than the lower-class. I didn't sleep through all those history classes. However (to keep this focused), Mystara's cultures on the outer world are hardly in an 'ancient' time period (Thyatis only has the trappings). The Hollow World has more of these type cultures where we could have the elegant slavery system that was used then. As to the Classical World be hurt by the removal of slavery... haven't you even thought that maybe they should have fallen? That maybe praticing such systems had doomed them from the start? One could argue that Rome lasted so long because it was so widespread... such large nations are hard to collapse at once. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:35:35 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Okay, the current discussion of slavery is only given us a chance to see how slavery was used all through history. However, the thread started with how a paladin would react to it. Is good more imoportant than law to a paladin? I think that law is more important since paladins believe only by following the law can you have good. Does this mean a paladin would attempt to abolish slavery to satisfy his good alignment? No. His role is not to create or change laws but to follow them. He may stop the beating of a slave but I don't think he would free the slave. That makes him disregard his lawful duty to follow the law and become chaotic good. However, if paladins are widespread then any slave owner would know better than to beat a slave in his presence. Would a paladin from a culture that has slavery, own slaves himself? Probably not. Comments? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:17:02 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 02:54 PM 3/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >>On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>>Now if we could isolate where they have had the chance to compare themselves to true gods, it may tell more of their origins. >>What evidence do you have that they must have done so? >Not sure if I can remember all this message of mine but I think I was answering the one that said Immortals didn't call themselves gods because they knew they weren't. The only way to know they weren't is to have meet gods. Now, if we can find out this about this meeting, it might tell us a little about they're origin. So, either they've meet gods and realized they aren't gods or they haven't meet gods and assume they are gods but just call themselves Immortals. That clear it up? It is an interesting thought. If one goes along with the Spelljammer description then the rest of the multiverse sees the Mystaran patrons as being stuffy and overly protective of their crystal sphere. But what I assume is a belief in gods pre-existed the first mortal attaining Immortality. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:18:16 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >answering the one that said Immortals didn't call themselves gods because they knew they weren't. The only way to know they weren't is to Maybe Immortals don't call themselves gods because TSR was worried about more bad press if they put out a product that showed players how to "become gods". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 98 14:25:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] >Is good more imoportant than law to a paladin? I think that law is more important since paladins believe only by following the law can you have good. You're going to have trouble with this one, since there are as many ways to define "law" and "good" as there are people to ask. For example, a Christian would say that goodness is defined by the law, but would define that law differently than you might expect: 1. Love God more than anything else 2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself These comprise the *whole* of the law and form the complete definition for "good" deeds. Everything else derives from this, and usually includes civil obedience, but may sometimes requires civil disobedience. So a 'Christian' paladin would disobey human law if it conflicted with God's law. I agree with your comments only if the paladin follows a religion of absolute civil law. However, I do not think that such a religion is very realistic or interesting (unless you want to reproduce something like the caste system of India...) A secular knight follows a secular law. He gets no supernatural powers, but *does* get the authority and power of a worldly kingdom to back him up. A paladin in contrast follows a divine law. He has little secular authority, but is granted supernatural power instead. I'm not sure why an avenger would gain his special powers, considering that he follows nobody but himself -- maybe it is the sheer force of his passion and purpose that give him special abilities -- or perhaps some demon or godling "sponsors" him since he furthers their purpose. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:35:22 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >Maybe Immortals don't call themselves gods because TSR was worried about more bad press if they put out a product that showed players how to "become gods". I dunno. Player's can become witches, socerers, vampires, werewolves, etc. I doubt that made any friends with the uneducated about role-playing either. But I was looking for a reason in the history of Mystara for an explaination. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:42:20 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Daly wrote: >It is an interesting thought. If one goes along with the Spelljammer description then the rest of the multiverse sees the Mystaran patrons as being stuffy and overly protective of their crystal sphere. >But what I assume is a belief in gods pre-existed the first mortal attaining Immortality. I had a thought that there were gods at one time in Mystara. Your standard creation myth is inserted and the gods show mortals how to attain immortality. Of course like any good creation myth, you have to kill some gods for others to rise in their place only this time it was the Immortals who killed the gods and instead of assuming their power, it was scattered across the 'sphere'. This is the reason magic is so plentiful on Mystara. Also, it maybe hard to travel to Mystara from other worlds because the Immortals want to keep any gods looking for a new home from entering. This has one flaw though.. you fight fire with fire and the Immortals must be gods in order to keep other gods from invading. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:53:31 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] MichaelX Harvey wrote: >A secular knight follows a secular law. He gets no supernatural powers, but *does* get the authority and power of a worldly kingdom to back him up. A paladin in contrast follows a divine law. He has little secular authority, but is granted supernatural power instead. I'm not sure why an avenger would gain his special powers, considering that he follows nobody but himself -- maybe it is the sheer force of his passion and purpose that give him special abilities -- or perhaps some demon or godling "sponsors" him since he furthers their purpose. But on Mystara we have the combination of secular and divine. The churches that these warriors arise from have the complete authority from their Immortals and the nation builds its law systems from church law. Mystarians are really of a single religion though it includes many different Immortals. To take your example of Christianity, it has to compete with many other religions and so secular law can't be totally based on it because it is only one of many. Paladins would have a much harder road if there was a completely different set of laws based on other church doctrines. Now, if the nations of the Known World were completely opposed to other Immortals being worshipped then you would have the same situation as secular vs divine. But the only Immortals likely to be outlawed are those that wouldn't have paladins or that worship an Immortal that doesn't have them to start with. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:39:23 EST From: Inconu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery << . What you have been discussing is whether you think slavery is evil or not. I assume that most people on this list find slavery evil. >> It all depends on what you consider evil. I consider an act done for the benefit of someone other than one's self is a good act. Something done for one's self at the expense of someone else is an evil act. That's why I believe it's evil. The reason i think this thread should end is for the fact that it's going nowhere and everyone has just stated and restated their ideas over and over again. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:44:53 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Somebody who goes around "righting wrongs" regardless of the law isn't a Paladin, he's an Avenger. >> Righting wrongs for the good of the people in a country is a Paladin's nature. I'm not saying going against the law..... more like trying to move for a change in the law. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:19:43 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Galwylin pontificated: >I dunno. Player's can become witches, socerers, vampires, werewolves, (A)D&D doesn't have witches for a while now. Demons and devils were also renamed. Even in other campaigns, gods are refer to as powers. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #135 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:37:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #136 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com mystara-digest Tuesday, March 3 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 136 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country [MYSTARA] - Nightfall in the Hollow World Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Let's Keep the Slavery Thread On-Topic [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re: [MYSTARA] - Firearms [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:17:02 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps << I would say a vamp would only fear holy symbol displayed by someone who have faith in the symbol. >> yeah...that's a good point. Anyone else have thoughts on this....??? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:22:54 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Is good more imoportant than law to a paladin? I think that law is more important since paladins believe only by following the law can you have good. Does this mean a paladin would attempt to abolish slavery to Exactly. It is an *Avenger* who thinks that good is best attained by going outside the law, and especially by finding and opposing evil laws and institutions. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:33:05 EST From: Inconu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery << Is good more imoportant than law to a paladin? The perfect answer should be both are equal, but we all know that the situation may come up in which one must be chosen over the other. If a Paladin thinks slavery is evil and wants a change, the Paladin will have to keep the law and goodliness on his side. Which is a hell of a problem. First thing's first....can he just free the slave? Obviously not, since that's blatently against the law. So, he must find a way to try and make life better for slaves without going against the law which he has sworn loyalty to. Maybe he would legally voice his thoughts and try to get the rulers of the land to hear his voice and claim. Names on petitions, gathering of the masses, convincing higher ups in the nation, etc.... Try to make a change. Sure he might not be able to free all slaves, but what if he makes life easier for them? Maybe this act will slowly develop throughout time. After a generation or two more laws are passed. Finally, it may be long after the paladin's life has ended, but the law ends up abolishing slavery. This change is a good act and was done by the book. The paladin started a slow chain reaction that led to the end of slavery. An accomplishment that was probably thought to be impossible during his time. <> yeah, i doubt that for some reason..... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:21:00 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >I think history shows that slavery is evil. In America, we are still suffering (as a nation) from this act of our past. If it had been a Rome and Greece do not seem to have suffered from that act. Islam does not seem to be suffering from that act. The particular implementation of slavery practiced in the US was the most pernicious flavor, certainly. >committed against ourselves. This is why we consider murder, robbery and slavery evil. Not because of what it does to a society but because It depends upon the style of slavery. Let us consider Diogenes--who auctioned himself off at a *higher* price than the auctioneer had him going for. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 98 14:41:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >We're straying from the topic. The churches of the Known World have laws and we (at least) have those and their beliefs. This would be where the paladins would find their paths. I agree. A paladin would disobey a civil law if the divine law he obeys required it. However, he would never disobey the divine law, even if he personally thought it was wrong or did not understand it. In this sense he places divine law over his own feelings of good and evil. Modern "rights" philosophies are more of a human, subjective standard. A paladin does not think up his own philosophy, he follows the teaching of another. An Avenger is the one who invents his own ideas and philosophies, and who is likely to have some abstract 'Bill of Rights'... of course he is just as likely to come up with some wierd personal credo involving machismo and deviant sex. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:12:35 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << My boss at work forces me to do his bidding. As a contractor, I am locked into a period of service; I have no choices, rights, or recognition like employees do. Being a contractor is really like a limited period of partial slavery. Sure I could quit ... or a slave could run away ... but running causes trouble, and why run when you have a good thing going? >> Give me a break. No one forces you to do thier bidding. you chose what to do with your life. you get paid. you get vaca time. you get time off...sick leave... not to mention benefits...and if at any time......any time at all you get sick of it. you can quit....work somewhere else....move anywhere....do anything...it's hardly a comparison. <> Well, i've supported it with other posts and i never said "ALWAYS". I asked if there was anything good to salvage from it. Some responded and helped me realize what could be. Next time make sure you have your quotes right. Not trying to criticize you...i just don't like being misquoted...like i'm sure you wouldn't like - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:23:44 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 02:49 PM 3/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >>Like abortion, eh? >A whole other mess. >>You see where this is going? You say "Institution X is inherently evil". It is very easy to find some institution or another wherein we will not be able to get general consensus on whether or not it is an evil act. >I think history shows that slavery is evil. In America, we are still suffering (as a nation) from this act of our past. If it had been a good or neutral act then the problems may not have festered for more than a hundred years now. But every culture is different and maybe the effects aren't so bad. >The only way we can define evil is to think as if the act had been committed against ourselves. This is why we consider murder, robbery and slavery evil. Not because of what it does to a society but because of what it does to ourselves. I just can't see any good coming out of a nation that uses slavery. Can someone name a few that aren't selfish reasons? Sure. Reasons that are good for the slave right? 1) The gambler who has gotten himself so far in debt that the only choices left to him are to sell himself for labor and allow his master to pay off his debt or to swim with a cinder block tied around his legs. 2) The young man who in the heat of anger kills a farmer's son. The court can either rule that the young man dies or he becomes the farmer's property. Now, working for the farmer won't bring back the son but it will knock off some of the economical damage that the farmer will suffer from losing his son's labor. Sound cold? It is. But consider the alternative. Now, the farmer will likely have to have enough forgiveness to agree to this...but then it is a possibility that he will not have much choice with the loss of labor... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:18:15 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >I don't see much of a problem for the paladin here. My interpretation of paladins is that they are basicly the sword of their god (or immortal, I use the terms interchangably). Therefore, they will always do what they believe is right based on their faith. And they will continue to have their power as long as their god agrees on what they are doing. If this meant they have to go against the King or even higher authority within the church, then they will do so. This also meant that paladins among different faith might not have the same interpretion of what is good. For example, the paladin follows the immortal of justice and revenge (can't spell her name), will probably lean more on the side of law, while paladin follows more peaceful immortals might even have the disadventage of can not kill or can not start a fight. In the computer game Ultima, in the character generation, one of the questions asked is something like you have been tracking a killer for years, trying to bring him to justice. After you find him, you found out he is a good person now, and is the only support for a little girl, what would you do. If faced with this situation, the first paladin I described above will bring him back for trial, while the the second one might let him go. I can see your point but I wonder if an Immortal that preaches peace would even have a warrior faction with in their church. Not saying they wouldn't but I find a irony in the idea of a peacemaker with sword. Reminds me of some army slogans that talk about keeping the peace.. even if we have to fight. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:28:44 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in >>Hey Mystaran's: >>Just a quick "I was wondering..." set of questions: >I asked similar questions about a month ago and got a grand total of 2 responses. I really hope you have better luck! >>1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? I prefer the Gazetteer era. >>2) Why do you prefer that Era? The main reason why I like it is because of the ample detail that is available on most of the major nations of the KW in the period. The GAZ series is a great help for me in having info on towns, NPCs, and other things at a glance, without worrying about the effects of too much time or intervening history. I also like the rivalries that were in place as well, though I know they could not go on forever. >>3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: I'd prefer mainly pre-Wrath info, with extra details on post-Wrath developments. Since most modules and such seems to be written in pre_wrath, I think this only makes sense for the time being. Mind you, I'd love to have GAZes written on Hule, Wendar, Heldann, and Gombar and Suma'a. The maps should also be in the classic hex format, too. >>4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? Just that I think the Blackmoor material is top notch, and I wish more of it had been written. Of course, my favourite material was the AC 1000-era, so that would come first... :-) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:15:11 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation >>Blackmoor nuked the surface; do the Immortals really want to preserve a techno-mad culture without enough intelligence to prevent their own self-destruction? What if the Blackmoorians HAD been preserved in the Hollow World? By now they would have done something pretty horrible to it, according to their own Cultural Bias. >>Glen >> >>I would have liked to of seen a pre-tech Blackmoor preserved in HW. But given their strive for technological advancement (which the SoP would have preserved) you would have a paradox. Well, IMC I have a lost colony of pre-tech Blackmoor on the Vulcanian Peninsula (no more than basic outlines right now) - basically there was a split in Blackmoorian society not long before the GRoF - pro-tech vs. anti-tech, with the anti-tech people migrating to virgin lands to restart their culture, and reverting to DA-era culture in the process. The aftershocks of the GRoF, and the beasties in Davania, reduced them a few notches, but under the guidance of some Immortals they have slowly climbed back to the level attained by old Blackmoor around the time of Uther Andahar. It's a small nation, but an interestring twist to anyone who goes there. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:02:26 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>Is good more imoportant than law to a paladin? I think that law is more important since paladins believe only by following the law can you have good. Does this mean a paladin would attempt to abolish slavery to >Exactly. It is an *Avenger* who thinks that good is best attained by going outside the law, and especially by finding and opposing evil laws and institutions. I don't think we have historical or literary sources to even reference how an avenger would act. Taking them straight from the D&D rule books,Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:37:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #136 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com they seem to be the opposite of a paladin. This is the problem with how the writers of D&d present chaos. In one place it is meant to be opposite of law and in another the opposite of good. So I wouldn't even hazard to guess if they are seeking to do good or evil. However, what you are talking about can be the course of a simple fighter. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 98 17:46:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >Give me a break. No one forces you to do thier bidding. you chose [snip snip] All I meant to point out was that Slavery is not a black-and-white issue. Everyone serves somebody; the only difference is the degree of servitude, and how the boss/master treats the servant. Slavery can be good *if* it benefits the slave... or it can be very evil. >Next time make sure you have your quotes right. Not trying to criticize you...i just don't like being misquoted...like i'm sure you wouldn't like Sorry. If I misquoted it was because I misunderstood. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:22:06 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Sound cold? It is. But consider the alternative. Now, the farmer will likely have to have enough forgiveness to agree to this...but then it is a possibility that he will not have much choice with the loss of labor... >> I believe your right. It sounds cold, but it's the consequences. Slavery as punishment, i believe, serves justice to those whom take the law into thier own hand, but only in extreme cases. Such as murder, rape, and other heavy issues like that. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:22:02 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country >I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? Well, since there is no culture associated with Canada (unless someone out there creates a frontier nation of Bellayne Rakasta with a minority of Renardois Lupins, along with indigenous Atraughin-related peoples - the Lupins colonized the natives' land, and then the Rakasta moved in later, wait, this is too close to the RW, albeit a simplistic one *grin*), I start campaigns anywhere I feel like it. Mostly this is in the KW, specifically Karameikos, Thyatis, or Darokin - if only because they all have a lot of documentation and the atmosphere is not too foreign to people who have vague ideas about fantasy. If the players start in Karameikos I usually get them out as soon as possible - for my own reasons. >As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? Hmmm, I seem to have answered the above question. Well, thanks for asking :-) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:08:54 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Nightfall in the Hollow World If my understanding is right, the lands in the Hollow World are in eternal daylight except when a floating continent passes between them and the sun. Those continents and some of the lands wouldn't recieve this 'night', correct? What I was thinking of was a culture like the one depicted in Asimov's "Nightfall" short story. If no one knows about it, it's a story about a world that has several suns that never set all at once. But one man predicts that they all will and this is meet with controversy. When they do set, it is seen as a end of the world (whihc he later depicted in the novel "Nightfall"). Since this culture couldn't have been transported by the Immortals from the outer world it would have to developed in the Hollow World. Is that possible with the Spell of Preservation? Of course, it could have been a culture transported that slowly developed this outlook but then there would always be tales of the _night_ in their mythology unless the Immortals erased all their memories of the outer world. Comments? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:26:09 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers MichaelX Harvey wrote: >All I meant to point out was that Slavery is not a black-and-white issue. Everyone serves somebody; the only difference is the degree of servitude, and how the boss/master treats the servant. Slavery can be good *if* it benefits the slave... or it can be very evil. I promise this is my last post on slavery... but a job is a choice as individuals. Slavery by it's very definition is a removal of rights. No matter if you give them up freely (which we do a bit in civilization), once you lose rights to your own destiny you are subject to another's desire for your life. If it's good or evil is in the eyes of the slave not the owner since no one can decide something like that for another. We can find out how good it is only from a slave's point of view and the discussion has proven that anyone that hasn't been a slave can't give an argument to convince anyone else. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:39:15 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >I can see your point but I wonder if an Immortal that preaches peace would even have a warrior faction with in their church. Not saying they wouldn't but I find a irony in the idea of a peacemaker with sword. Reminds me of some army slogans that talk about keeping the peace.. even if we have to fight. I am sure you are not accusing humans of lacking irony...:) Knowing the violence involved in American peace movements and the violent attitude of alot of peaceniks I have no trouble seeing a peacemaker with a sword. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:32:53 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 04:35 PM 3/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >>Maybe Immortals don't call themselves gods because TSR was worried about more bad press if they put out a product that showed players how to "become gods". >I dunno. Player's can become witches, socerers, vampires, werewolves, etc. I doubt that made any friends with the uneducated about role-playing either. But I was looking for a reason in the history of Mystara for an explaination. That was of course the original reason for the inclusion of term Immortal over god. But like Galwyn, I too was looking for a setting-based reason. As for the other stuff a player can become...you would be surprised at how much a demon can bother someone and other stuff can be unnoticed... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:35:55 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Let's Keep the Slavery Thread On-Topic Mystarans, I have been paying close attention to the slavery thread, as it is the kind of topic that can easily break out into a flame war. While I am not putting a stop to it - debating what a paladin or avenger would do or think about slavery is a legitimite topic - I want to make sure all involved understand that the thread needs to keep to Mystara. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:39:51 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... Mystarans, Does anyone know if the dates for the Equinoxes (vernal and autumnal) and Solstices (summer and winter) have ever been published? I perused the PWA, but couldn't find such info. Thanks. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:46:01 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Super dungeon. Kaviyd pontificated: >With those silly looking orcs on the front cover you were expecting a serious module? Ahm, aww, well... At the time, I was really into Grayhawk, so when I saw the module that would detail the dungeon of Castle Grayhawk, I swoop it up immediatly. I thought those orcs looked a little weird, but I figure it might be just a bad cover arts. John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:51:33 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Daly pontificated: >But the primary element in English is that of placement. Latin and Chinese both have all three elements as well (actually Chinese may not use enclitics...Yu?) I would say no, unless the definations for prefix and suffix are very loose. Some written Chinese character have certain parts that can be channged, but it doesn't really operate like prefix or suffix in western language. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:01:42 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Firearms bjm10@cornell.edu pontificated: >"http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/DnD/guns/gonnes.html"), but I ultimately find the results unsatisfying. In D&D-style gaming systems, guns should have innate bonuses "to hit", since that is the only way to simulate the ability to punch through armor in that set of rules. However, those bonuses "to hit" should be based upon the AC that you're trying to penetrate--and the highest bonuses should be against the better AC ratings. You could have bonus kick in only against certain level of AC or lower, (+2 to hit if target has AC 4 or lower), or the weapon increase the effective AC of the target by certain amount up to certain AC (the weapon roll to hit as if the target AC is 4 higher up to AC 7, so against AC7, it doesn't help, against AC 3 to 6 it hits like AC 7, etc.). This is not very realistic against creatures that have good AC due to speed or size. But then again, D&D combat system is not know for its reality :). - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:09:18 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: your mail Daly pontificated: >As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? I like to start my campaigns in Karameiko, especially Threshold, just because I like that town and nation so much. >Right now I am trying to interest some players in trying a "merchant" or a "diplomat". I have a swashbuckler type of fighter from Darokin who is also a merchant. He led a few wagons to Karameiko to trade. Stopped by Threshold on the way south, mets a few people, and starts the adventuring life... - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:43:00 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... At 09:39 PM 3/2/98 -0000, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >Mystarans, >Does anyone know if the dates for the Equinoxes (vernal and autumnal) and Solstices (summer and winter) have ever been published? I perused the PWA, but couldn't find such info. According to the Thyatian calendar from the Karameikan Gaz the following information is given: Thaumont 1 -- first day of spring Klarmont 1 -- first day of summer Ambyrmont 1 -- first day of autumn Kaldmont 1 -- first day of winter. In the RW, the 'first day of spring' and the 'first day of autumn' (usually around the 21st of March and 21st of September, respectively) are actually the Vernal and Autumnal Equinoxes -- i.e., the dates when the day and night are (approximately) equal. Then the summer and winter soltices (longest and shortest days) are basicly three months later, around 21st of June and 21st of December. In our case they each shifts a bit, landing in the appropriate month anywhere between the 20th and the 22nd. Assuming that the 'official first day of ...' given in the Thyatian calendar is based on seasonal and astronomical data, then they should also reflect the Equinoxes and Solstices. On the other hand, if you want to make it feel more RW, shift the 'date' from the 1st to the 21st of the same months -- or pick another date like the 28th or the 15th. Using the 1st, it makes their 'december' more like our 'january'. Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #136 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, March 3 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 137 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:15:49 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-03-02 13:29:32 EST, ccosman@huntingdon.edu writes: >Well, I didn't say it would be practical. But it could be done. A new >group of pirates that use firearms could be added to the HW. Adding new pirate culture to the Merry Pirates has been done before. The spell of preservation would see to it that the other persons would still be able to combat the pirates with their firearms. How much different would firearms be? I mean the blacklore elves have those torch things. I could see the pirates with a similar fire arm type weapon. And I know just where to get those pirates from -- the Savage Coast! Of course, the Immortals who transport pirates from the Savage Coast to the Hollow World would have a LOT of work to do. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:15:52 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... In a message dated 98-03-02 23:51:50 EST, malacoda@lesbois.com writes: >Does anyone know if the dates for the Equinoxes (vernal and autumnal) and Solstices (summer and winter) have ever been published? I perused the PWA, but couldn't find such info. I found it in the list of holidays in PWA3: Thaumont 1: Spring Equinox Klarmont 1: Summer Solstice Ambyrmont 1: Autumn Equinox Kaldmont 1: Winter Solstice Some earlier sources may contradict these dates. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:53:40 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers In a message dated 98-03-02 17:08:27 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >However, who are we to judge whats evil or good? Face it people. These >concepts are totally subjective. If you want to give those terms an absolute sense, which is your own, then go ahead. But I think it will remove a lot of realism from your campaign setting. And you might annoy a couple of players if their opinions differ slightly from yours. If you are playing AD&D and wish to use the Good-Evil alignment axis, then you have to accept that there is an objective definition of Good and Evil, whether the characters in the game acknowledge it or not. That is one reason that I do not like to use the Good-Evil axis -- while I do think that Good and Evil have meaning apart from our own subjective ideas, I do not like to require players to evaluate their player characters in terms that the characters would not understand. The Law-Chaos axis (if not confused with Good-Evil) meets this test quite well -- but there are definite problems with requiring players to determine whether their characters are Good or Evil by standards other than those of the character (who will inevitably regard himself as "Good" -- especially if he is not). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:53:42 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers In a message dated 98-03-02 17:08:27 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >This is all linked with alignment I suppose. Seriously, What has the moral >of the 90's got to do in a medeival/rennessance setting? That's funny -- I thought that the debates over the morality of slavery began in the 1700s or 1800s, not in the 1990s. Here is an interesting historical question that could help us out -- what is the earliest historical statement that we can find by anyone in any place denouncing the practice of slavery as wrong? If it is early enough, it could have some force in fantasy settings based on that era. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:16:46 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers >you have to accept that there is an objective definition of Good and Evil, whether the characters in the game acknowledge it or not. That is one reason that I do not like to use the Good-Evil axis -- while I do think that Good and Evil have meaning apart from our own subjective ideas, I do not like to require players to evaluate their player characters in terms that the characters would not understand. The Law-Chaos axis (if not confused with Good-Evil) meets this test quite well -- but there are definite problems with requiring players to determine whether their characters are Good or Evil by standards other than those of the character (who will inevitably regard himself as "Good" -- especially if he is not). But there are problems with the player/character defining what is good or evil also. Is it okay for a player to play a paladin and in a sudden fit of greed argue that stealing is okay for a good cause? Of course there have to be standards... One can either judge morality from a standard of some sort (for instance to a Christian, sin is anything which seperates us from God...for a Libertarian, bad is anything that inhibits one's freedom.) or one can try and work with a player to define a code of ethics for the character. This was something that occurred to me back in the days before the Immortals. When clerics were aligned with a philosophy and temples were barely defined in individual modules. It occurred to me that the alignment system does not really work. As I said to another DM (Forgotten Realms) in my group: "Who's standards? I'm a Christian you are not. We disagree on several points concerning morality. I am playing a paladin in your game. I am never all that sure what to expect in any given situation." His reply: "My standards. I define what is right and what is wrong." Actually I think this is ok if beliefs are well defined. For instance a paladin of Koryis might not be allowed to use any weapons but must instead subdue all intelligent opponents. The DM can define this as a good standard. Anything that might provoke a person might be considered evil. This is just an example off the top of my head and I am sure there are all kinds of holes in it. The point is that the standards for what is good and what is evil are either defined by the DM based on the particular belief in question, or the standards are defined by the DM and the player with both inputing from their own personal beliefs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:55:05 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-03-02 13:29:32 EST, you write: << Well, I didn't say it would be practical. But it could be done. A new group of pirates that use firearms could be added to the HW. Adding new pirate culture to the Merry Pirates has been done before.>> If it wouldn't be practical why then would you wish to place them there. IIRC HW is intended to be a refuge for peoples on their downward slope. I see no RS/SC pirates along that path. At least none with firearms. Now earlier period RS/SC pirates predating the wheel locks could have been transplanted. <> ????You lost me here???? How would the SoP enable the other peoples to compete against the gun toting pirates on a level field. Give the others firearms? Not likely. And it is not just a matter of a crossbow versus a musket. A firearm bearing people would also have the industrial technology to build and maintain those guns. <> Well the Blacklore are a docile people. Their hand torches are limited to their valley. Thus they are a defensive weapon. The multi persons composition of the Merry Pirates makes such seclusion not viable. And a pirate community is not likely to be content to sit on their butts. Pirates live on raiding. And what would be the use of such a weapon if its use was limited to their home area. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:46:42 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-02 17:32:47 EST, you write: << On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Alex295 wrote: >Does that mean that neither Alphatian nor Thyatis has paladins? No certainly >not. IMO a paladin native of either land could be a paladin despite not despising slavery. However, the treatment of slaves should be a condition. Exactly. An Alphatian or Thyatic Paladin would be an absolute stickler for the humane treatment of slaves. "Slaves are people, too." He would insist that slaves be given adequate rest time, not be subject to "animal punishments" (like flogging), be given adequate food, clothing, and shelter, etc. Thus, the Paladin would be seen as a fairly stuffy sort, willing to undergo "needless expense" for the sake of slaves, perhaps even going so far as to get himself into trouble with local authorities when he challenges the way a local bigwig treats slaves.>> Not sure if I'd say a stickler for the humane treatment of slaves. IMO a Thyatian or Alphatian Paladin would see slaves as just that, slaves. As long as they are treated in a usual manner, I see him as having little problem with it. Now if a master were seen beating the heck out of a slave, the paladin may ask about it. If the matter was of a trivial nature, the paladin may take umbrage. However, the paladin may see slaves differently depending on how they became slaves. Those tricked into or sold by family may draw his sympathy. May even try to help him gain freedom. Now those enslaved by conquest are acceptable due to both Empires veiws on conquest. Same for being enslaved due to criminal activities would also be seen as justified. Those born into slavery are a different matter. On one hand you could say it was what fate handed them. On the other you could say that the slave is exempt from the reasons that gave cause for the parents to be enslaved. Now what am I saying? I am really unsure. How about each paladin being different in how he perceives slavery as a whole based upon his Immortal, his nation,and he himself. Then there is the added factor of each slave experienced. <> Once again the individual's perspective is a factor. Whether the Avenger wants the total abolition of slavery as a whole or just limited to certain examples is a factor. One such example is Duncan McGregor of Glantri. He wants an overthrow of the magocracy, yet I feel that he would not slay either his father Brannart or his brother Quentin. That he has held command positions in the Crownguard powerbase attest that he is loyal to the family. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:08 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-02 17:49:27 EST, you write: <> Yes I agree. The best measure as to what a Paladin sees as lawful is within the Immortal he fights for. Though most Immortals have no stated veiw on the matter of slavery, a good idea can be reached by looking at the Immortal. A follower must be in tune with much of what the Immortal believes in. A Cleric and Paladin must believe in it even more so. Hence devine law would sway to hold more favor than national law. However, divine law may not necessarily be what we see today as morally lawful. Which is absurd to try to impose on a setting not based on todays morales. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:58:53 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation In a message dated 98-03-02 20:56:13 EST, you write: << Well, IMC I have a lost colony of pre-tech Blackmoor on the Vulcanian Peninsula (no more than basic outlines right now) - basically there was a split in Blackmoorian society not long before the GRoF - pro-tech vs. anti-tech, with the anti-tech people migrating to virgin lands to restart their culture, and reverting to DA-era culture in the process. The aftershocks of the GRoF, and the beasties in Davania, reduced them a few notches, but under the guidance of some Immortals they have slowly climbed back to the level attained by old Blackmoor around the time of Uther Andahar. It's a small nation, but an interestring twist to anyone who goes there. Geoff >> Once again we think along the same lines. Scarry ain't it? I have a Blackmoor lost colony placed in Davania. Instead of being typical of Blackmoor, it is populated by genetically created beings. They do not use technology. Instead they are more in tune with the other nations of Mystara. Why? First, because technology is unknown to them. Second it is outlawed by their Immortal. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:22:55 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >I had a thought that there were gods at one time in Mystara. Your standard creation myth is inserted and the gods show mortals how to attain immortality. Of course like any good creation myth, you have to The impression I got from the original Immortals boxed set is that the first Immortals did it on their own (with some surreptitious aid possibly from the Old Ones). However, even the Old Ones are purely speculative as far as Immortals are concerned. There are no "gods" other than the Immortals and Immortal speculation on the possible existence of the Old Ones. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:24:46 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >Righting wrongs for the good of the people in a country is a Paladin's nature. I'm not saying going against the law..... more like trying to move for a change in the law. But that's an AD&D Paladin. In D&D, we have Avengers to represent Goodness in Chaos. This thread is titled "Avengers" after all. D&D Paladins can find themselves royally screwed when their precious Law is used to shield an evil act. If they violate the law, they violate the core of their being--that Law is the only acceptable method to attain theGood. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:28:01 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >If a Paladin thinks slavery is evil and wants a change, the Paladin will have to keep the law and goodliness on his side. Which is a hell of a problem. Right, the Paladin's great headache is that he must not break the Law, even if it's a bad law. He may attempt all legal methods to get the law changed, but Law is Law. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:29:11 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >>We're straying from the topic. The churches of the Known World have laws and we (at least) have those and their beliefs. This would be where the paladins would find their paths. >I agree. A paladin would disobey a civil law if the divine law he obeys required it. However, he would never disobey the divine law, Generally, in my campaigns, "civil law" and "divine law" are but one body of law. I don't use separation of Church and State--inappropriate to the cultural milieu. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:39:49 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >how an avenger would act. Taking them straight from the D&D rule books, they seem to be the opposite of a paladin. This is the problem with how No, they are not the opposite of a Paladin. They are the Chaotic COUNTERPART of a Paladin. The difference is that the Avenger is a professional loose cannon--he could be good or evil, which is why respectable folk just don't trust Avengers. Now, the D&D rules imply that an Avenger is likely to be good, since he gets the same protective powers vs. Evil as does a Paladin. A good Avenger would go around righting wrongs regardless of the law. >the writers of D&d present chaos. In one place it is meant to be opposite of law and in another the opposite of good. So I wouldn't even "Opposite of law" is the more sophisticated rendering. "Opposite of good" is a much older, Moorcockian rendering. In the Moorcock novels, all Law was good and all Chaos was evil. The Mind Flayer was the first explicitly Lawful creature that was also defined as being "evil". The thing is that morality in D&D started out as a very simple-minded rationalization for going around and murdering people to steal from them. They were all "chaotic", so they were "evil", thus it was a "good" thing to steal from their corpses. As Gygax's reading broadened, so did his interpretation of the alignments. Unfortunately, the "chaos"="evil" relic persisted in some of the text. >hazard to guess if they are seeking to do good or evil. However, what you are talking about can be the course of a simple fighter. And a simple fighter can also run around upholding law and good, too. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:45:17 -0600 From: "Cecil Cosman" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Responding to the message of Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:55:05 EST from Alex295 : >In a message dated 98-03-02 13:29:32 EST, you write: ><< Well, I didn't say it would be practical. But it could be done. A new >group of pirates that use firearms could be added to the HW. Adding new pirate culture to the Merry Pirates has been done before.>> >If it wouldn't be practical why then would you wish to place them there. IIRC >HW is intended to be a refuge for peoples on their downward slope. I see no >RS/SC pirates along that path. At least none with firearms. Now earlier period >RS/SC pirates predating the wheel locks could have been transplanted. Well since there arn't any in danger of being removed from existance there is no need to put them in the HW. I was just saying that if you wanted to include fire arms and put them in the HW the merry pirates would be the most logical place. And who is to say that if some SC pirates where added to the merry pirates and assimilated into the culture that they wouldn't have the ability to develop the fire arm. ><> >????You lost me here???? How would the SoP enable the other peoples to compete against the gun toting pirates on a level field. Give the others firearms? Not likely. And it is not just a matter of a crossbow versus a musket. A firearm bearing people would also have the industrial technology to >build and maintain those guns. Galwylin brought up the idea of a musket doing the same as an arrow. I don't see the fire arm doing some insane amout of damage. suppose you use the idea that the firearms gets to hit the target at ac9. big deal. it might kill off some low level character but so can a sword or arrow. The Fire arm is hampered by its low RoF. Have you ever tried to load a black power gun and fire rapidly? it's no easy task. The way I see the SoP is that ifin the Pirates are doing too much stuff at the expense of others it'll balance them out... some freak sinkings or whatnot. If you look at the HW in general pre Alphatia, the Pirates are up there in tech level and the Traldar are about middle level I believe but they do alright against each other. ><be? I mean the blacklore elves have those torch things. I could see the pirates with a similar fire arm type weapon. >> >Well the Blacklore are a docile people. Their hand torches are limited to their valley. Thus they are a defensive weapon. The multi persons composition >of the Merry Pirates makes such seclusion not viable. And a pirate community >is not likely to be content to sit on their butts. Pirates live on raiding. >And what would be the use of such a weapon if its use was limited to their >home area. Their home area is more then they would need. I mean how much stuff do the merry pirates do 100 miles inland? But that's not the point I was making. The Black Lore elves Torch weapon is similiar IMHO to a fire arm of sorts. Sameamount of damage for instance. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:49:06 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >Mystarans, >Does anyone know if the dates for the Equinoxes (vernal and autumnal) and Solstices (summer and winter) have ever been published? I perused the PWA, but couldn't I don't think they've ever been published. In my own campaign, the Apocalypse screwed everything up for the surface world, making the year longer than it used to be, so there is very significant solstice creep on the old Calendar. As the magic returns, things will move back to "Mystaran normal"--which will be one of the things that the PCs are to discover to clue them in that something truly major is going on in the world. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:48:54 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 11:29 AM 3/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >>>We're straying from the topic. The churches of the Known World have laws and we (at least) have those and their beliefs. This would be where the paladins would find their paths. >>I agree. A paladin would disobey a civil law if the divine law he obeys required it. However, he would never disobey the divine law, >Generally, in my campaigns, "civil law" and "divine law" are but one body of law. I don't use separation of Church and State--inappropriate to the cultural milieu. I would say it depends on the KW culture in question. Glantrians go for an extreme seperation of church and state. Darokin maybe too. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:21 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >I would say no, unless the definations for prefix and suffix are very loose. Some written Chinese character have certain parts that can be The linguistic definition of "prefix" and "suffix" and "infix" have nothing at all to do with writing. Instead, they have to do with altering the word. Given a basic semantic unit, a "prefix" is an alteration that is said *before* the basic semantic unit. A suffix is said after that unit, and an infix is inserted into the middle of the spoken unit. Even un-written languages can have prefixes, suffixes, and infixes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:46:32 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 11:24 AM 3/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >>Righting wrongs for the good of the people in a country is a Paladin's nature. >>I'm not saying going against the law..... more like trying to move for a change in the law. >But that's an AD&D Paladin. In D&D, we have Avengers to represent Goodness in Chaos. This thread is titled "Avengers" after all. D&D Paladins can find themselves royally screwed when their precious Law is used to shield an evil act. If they violate the law, they violate the core of their being--that Law is the only acceptable method to attain the Good. And the only solution is martyrdom! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:58:44 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] >>the writers of D&d present chaos. In one place it is meant to be opposite of law and in another the opposite of good. So I wouldn't even >"Opposite of law" is the more sophisticated rendering. "Opposite of good" is a much older, Moorcockian rendering. In the Moorcock novels, all Law was good and all Chaos was evil. The Mind Flayer was the first explicitly Lawful creature that was also defined as being "evil". What source are you counting as the first appearance of the mind flayer? By the way, a player in an AD&D campaign I was in thought for a long time that we were fighting "mind filet-ers". The >thing is that morality in D&D started out as a very simple-minded rationalization for going around and murdering people to steal from them. They were all "chaotic", so they were "evil", thus it was a "good" thing to steal from their corpses. As Gygax's reading broadened, so did his interpretation of the alignments. Unfortunately, the "chaos"="evil" relic persisted in some of the text. But in the earliest D&D rulebooks the Law/Chaos and Good/Evil axes were always present. To my knowledge it was the Orange box edition (with the sorceress and warrior battling the water serpent) that first introduced Law/Chaos as a simplified alignment system. This is where I always believed the confusion began. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:08:06 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types bjm10@cornell.edu pontificated: >The linguistic definition of "prefix" and "suffix" and "infix" have nothing at all to do with writing. Instead, they have to do with altering the word. Ok, then Chinese, and to my knowledge languages such as Japanese and Korian have no prefix and suffix. In Chinese, each word is a semantic unit, and can not really be alter in anyway. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:44:28 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >>>We're straying from the topic. The churches of the Known World have laws and we (at least) have those and their beliefs. This would be where the paladins would find their paths. >>I agree. A paladin would disobey a civil law if the divine law he obeys required it. However, he would never disobey the divine law, >Generally, in my campaigns, "civil law" and "divine law" are but one body of law. I don't use separation of Church and State--inappropriate to the cultural milieu. I don't understand this. How can civil and divine law be the same. In most countries multiple Immortals are worshiped. How do you deal with Darokin for instance. Nearly all Immortals are worshiped there. Since the divine law is the civil law, whos divine laws are followed? - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... At 09:39 PM 3/2/98 -0000, you wrote: >Mystarans, >Does anyone know if the dates for the Equinoxes (vernal and autumnal) and Solstices (summer and winter) have ever been published? I perused the PWA, but couldn't find such info. >Thanks. Check out PWA II (1011) in the section on the Mystaran Year; after the calendars, there is a list (like the current events) of all the festivals and holidays; the Solstices and Equinoxes are in there. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:28:40 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << My boss at work forces me to do his bidding. As a contractor, I am locked into a period of service; I have no choices, rights, or recognition like employees do. Being a contractor is really like a limited period of partial slavery. Sure I could quit ... or a slave could run away ... but running causes trouble, and why run when you have a good thing going? Besides, I chose to sign up. >> Is this a joke? You're comparing yourself to a slave? A slave is PROPERTY. Someone else has control of their life, liberty and property. Would you want to trade places with a slave? << A trusted slave might be placed in charge of a master's entire estate and highly honored. >> Wow. Isn't that nice of the master. "Congratulations! Now that I own you and control you and pay you nothing for all your work, I will put you in charge of the estate! But you still have no rights." Let's celebrate! << Yes, involuntary slavery is usually wrong (except when imposed as a punishment.) But to say that slavery is ALWAYS wrong is a pretty broad statement that is hard to support. >> Many people believe it is "always wrong." I don't believe it is too broad of a statement. I, for instance, simply do not believe that humans should be owned. Even if they did commit a crime. To relate this back to Mystara and D&D, it seems as if TSR agrees with me considering owning slaves is an evil act unless it benefits the slaves somehow. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #137 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, March 3 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 138 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Nightfall in the Hollow World [MYSTARA] - Hit Points ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:14:41 -0800 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers >Here is an interesting historical question that could help us out -- what is the earliest historical statement that we can find by anyone in any place denouncing the practice of slavery as wrong? If it is early enough, it could have some force in fantasy settings based on that era. Pope Eugenius IV in 1434 condemned the slave trade and the enslavement of the Canary Island inhabitants. Although his statements did not condemn the actual practice of slavery. I would also like to point out that slavery was not consistently practiced over history. Its practice waxed and waned. In Roman times, it was widely practiced. But as Roman law broke down and Christianity began to rise, slavery became rare, though it never completely disappeared. In the dark ages, records were scarce and there was no legal authority to chase a slave down who escaped and return the slave to the owner. So slavery became rare. But toward the end of the middle ages, slavery became very commonplace. Also, even when slavery was widely practiced, some people thought it was wrong, but most thought that it was inevitable, that it would be impossible to eliminate it. Although it seems obvious to us now that it is not necessary, it was not so obvious back then. Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:21:53 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Daly wrote: >I would say it depends on the KW culture in question. Glantrians go for an extreme seperation of church and state. Darokin maybe too. Glantrians are also very susceptible to the whims of the Immortals. Isn't Rad the only one that keeps the others from doing as they will? Also, I'm surprised that the place isn't devastated by disease more often than has been shown. I think the recent relaxing of laws against clerics will be increased if only to survive. Any thoughts on which Immortals they may adopt? Darokin would find an Immortal of commerce to be very compatible, IMO. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:27:35 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Daly wrote: >But in the earliest D&D rulebooks the Law/Chaos and Good/Evil axes were always present. To my knowledge it was the Orange box edition (with the sorceress and warrior battling the water serpent) that first introduced Law/Chaos as a simplified alignment system. This is where I always believed the confusion began. When I first started playing (red box) it wasn't until I saw AD&D that I realized that law didn't always mean good and chaos didn't always mean evil. To me, D&D is set up on the good/evil axis with law/chaos substituted. It's only recently that I've been attempting to see the world on the law/chaos axis but it's still confusing without the added AD&D alignment system. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:18:48 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>used to shield an evil act. If they violate the law, they violate the core of their being--that Law is the only acceptable method to attain the Good. >And the only solution is martyrdom! Which is what DMs call a "roleplaying opportunity"... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:23:12 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >and Korian have no prefix and suffix. In Chinese, each word is a semantic unit, and can not really be alter in anyway. Quite true, as Chinese is often held up as one of the most extreme isolating languages in the world. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:26:10 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >I don't understand this. How can civil and divine law be the same. In most countries multiple Immortals are worshiped. How do you deal with Darokin for instance. Nearly all Immortals are worshiped there. Since the divine law is the civil law, whos divine laws are followed? I don't use the "parallel monotheistic" model for my fantasy religion. The problem with the majority of fantasy campaigns is that they were designed by people utterly ignorant of how polytheism works. People worship "the gods", you don't have people running around following only one god. Each god is consulted, as the situation demands, according to his, her, or its speciality. However, all gods are real. Some may be the gods of your enemy or may be evil gods, but they are all part of "the gods". The Romans took this one step further in assigning Roman equivalents to every deity they encountered. The Jews gave them no end of troubles (gotta love 'em for it, too)... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:56:48 -0700 From: "Joe Gerber" Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] - -----Original Message----- From: bjm10@cornell.edu >No, they are not the opposite of a Paladin. They are the Chaotic COUNTERPART of a Paladin. The difference is that the Avenger is a professional loose cannon--he could be good or evil, which is why respectable folk just don't trust Avengers. Now, the D&D rules imply that an Avenger is likely to be good, since he gets the same protective powers vs. Evil as does a Paladin. Actually, the impression that *I* got from reading the original rules in the Companion set was that Avengers were implied to be "bad" (eg, they can _persuade_ [charm] Chaotic-aligned monsters, can _Command_ undead, an Avenger masquearading as a Paladin is the "bad guy" in one of the mini-adventures). Also bear in mind that _Dectect Evil_, in OD&D terms, is simply _Dectect Opposite Alignment_. You already did a good job of explaining the reason for this is your post about how 'Chaotic' became synomious with 'Evil' in D&D; this is simply another case of it. Joe *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:00:04 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers ><< A trusted slave might be placed in charge of a master's entire estate and highly honored. >> >Wow. Isn't that nice of the master. "Congratulations! Now that I own you and control you and pay you nothing for all your work, I will put you in charge of the estate! But you still have no rights." Let's celebrate! You are describing one form of slavery...one that never existed. Even in American slavery slaves did get paid. It was a pittance. But you cannot say that the master paid them nothing. And under Roman law slaves did have rights. Once again, they weren't equal rights to Roman citizens, but they were rights. ><< Yes, involuntary slavery is usually wrong (except when imposed as a punishment.) But to say that slavery is ALWAYS wrong is a pretty broad statement that is hard to support. >> >Many people believe it is "always wrong." I don't believe it is too broad of a statement. And many do not. That is what makes the statement broad. I, for instance, simply do not believe that humans should be >owned. Even if they did commit a crime. Many people don't believe in the death penalty, or life in prison. That does not make it right or wrong. That is just opinion. >To relate this back to Mystara and D&D, it seems as if TSR agrees with me considering owning slaves is an evil act unless it benefits the slaves somehow. >--- -- --Criptonite Your source? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:03:01 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 04:18 PM 3/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>>used to shield an evil act. If they violate the law, they violate the core of their being--that Law is the only acceptable method to attain the Good. >>And the only solution is martyrdom! >Which is what DMs call a "roleplaying opportunity"... Exactly! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:09:05 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >I don't use the "parallel monotheistic" model for my fantasy religion. The problem with the majority of fantasy campaigns is that they were designed by people utterly ignorant of how polytheism works. People worship "the gods", you don't have people running around following only one god. Each god is consulted, as the situation demands, according to his, her, or its speciality. However, all gods are real. Some may be the gods of your enemy or may be evil gods, but they are all part of "the gods". The Romans took this one step further in assigning Roman equivalents to every deity they encountered. I agree with you but with an addition. There are certainly some KW cultures and some religions who preach either monotheism or that their deity is superior to every other. I can see Darokinians, the Diplomatic buggers that they are, worshiping every deity equally. Maybe with some interesting results too... "May the Immortals take care of us in our endeavor. May Koryis bless our quest, and Alphaks, and Vanya..." But then there are the Ylaruam people who do preach that Al Kalim is the only true god. And I am sure the Heldanners have no doubt as to who the greatest Immortal is. But the Thyatians would be more along the lines of having a god designated for each situation. And anytime a forgotten shrine is found why not sprinkle a little holy water in offering just in case! >The Jews gave them no end of troubles (gotta love 'em for it, too)... Me too! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:59:48 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] << The difference is that the Avenger is a professional loose cannon--he could be good or evil, which is why respectable folk just don't trust Avengers. >> Was there ever documentation that stated whether or not Avengers could be good, neutral, evil????? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:03:01 PST From: "Martin Edwards" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Solstices... >Mystarans, >Does anyone know if the dates for the Equinoxes (vernal and autumnal) and Solstices (summer and winter) have ever been published? I perused the PWA, but couldn't find such info. The Glantri Gazetteer gives the dates as follows: Spring Equinox: Nuwmont 2 Summer Solstice: Flaurmont 1 Fall Equinox: Felmont 1 Winter Solstice: Sviftmont 1 PWA3 gives them roughly two months later: Spring Equinox: Thaumont 1 Summer Solstice: Klarmont 1 Fall Equinox: Ambyrmont 1 Winter Solstice: Kaldmont 1 (exactly as per Jenni’s suggestion) My guess is that when Bruce Heard wrote GAZ3 he was thinking of a March-type new year for Glantri rather than a January-type. The other events also back this up, e.g. Spring Break in Nuwmont. IMC I shift all the dates in Glantri forward by two months (except for Alexander Day and the Day of Dread) to bring them into line with the other gazetteers.) Martin Edwards ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:49:15 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daly wrote:>But then there are the Ylaruam people who do preach that Al Kalim is the only true god. However, that is still henotheism, not parallel monotheism. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:05:53 PST From: "Martin Edwards" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. >around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC >and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time >period all together? I guess the Gazetteer era, though Wrath looks pretty exciting too. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? To be honest I prefer the Gaz era just because that’s where my campaign has got to so far. We’re just teetering on the brink of Wrath so my preference may change in the near future -- fickle, I know :-). I think I’ll also enjoy the post-Wrath world because of the five almanacs (though don’t hold your breath as it’s taken 13 years (real time) to come thus far). >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information >provided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc >information? Of these I’d say c). I thought the Gazetteers were great. The Shadow Elves and the Principalities of Glantri particularly were hugely inspiring because of the wealth and depth of campaign ideas they provided. I would be a little worried that any revival would not be backwards-compatible or, worse, would not capture the original spirit of the Gazetteers. I was rather disappointed by G:KoM for the latter reason. However, more than any of these, I would rather see an almanac every year. Martin Edwards ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 18:36:14 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 05:49 PM 3/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>But then there are the Ylaruam people who do preach that Al Kalim is the only true god. >However, that is still henotheism, not parallel monotheism. Never heard of it. What is it? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:01:42 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >Generally, in my campaigns, "civil law" and "divine law" are but one body of law. I don't use separation of Church and State--inappropriate to the cultural milieu. I agree. The is no separation between the church and state. Thincol I is a perfect example of how going against the wishes of an Immortal is detremental to the nation (not to mention one's health). - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:20:39 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >What source are you counting as the first appearance of the mind flayer? Either Greyhawk or Blackmoor (supplements to the original game, back when TSR was still called "Tactical Studies Rules"). >But in the earliest D&D rulebooks the Law/Chaos and Good/Evil axes were always present. To my knowledge it was the Orange box edition (with the No they weren't. In the earliest D&D rulebooks, the only axis was Law/Chaos. It was explained in the book "Men and Magic". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:12:08 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Cecil Cosman wrote: >Galwylin brought up the idea of a musket doing the same as an arrow. BTW, I figured that damage amount by comparing the damage an arrow and a bullet does to the human body. The only difference I see is that a bullet would have more power making the range greater (however, target would be harder to hit) and able to penetrate armor easier. Even with all that taken into account, the damage is the same so a 10th level fighter should be able to take a few shots easily but that's where it gets silly and starts looking like a bad Arnold movie. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:17:40 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >Generally, in my campaigns, "civil law" and "divine law" are but one body of law. I don't use separation of Church and State-- So, is every nation in your campaign that strictly religious? I think i misunderstood what you wrote here. In my eyes, it looks like what you're saying is that church is promonent in all nations. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:21:15 EST From: Inconu Subject: [MYSTARA] - muskets << Even with all that taken into account, the damage is the same so a 10th level fighter should be able to take a few shots easily but that's where it gets silly and starts looking like a bad Arnold movie. >> what rules are you using for bullet damage? If i recall correctly....it was 1d10, and if you rolled 0, you roll again and add ten to it. I know the chances of huge damage escalating from this is slim...but it's a little bit more then just a roll of one die. Hit points is just something that i personally think was handled much better in the white wolf system then in D&D. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:55:32 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-03 11:39:01 EST, you write: << >>Righting wrongs for the good of the people in a country is a Paladin's nature. >>I'm not saying going against the law..... more like trying to move for a change in the law. >But that's an AD&D Paladin. So, i was talking about AD&D Paladins obviously..... >This thread is titled "Avengers" after all. And i was talking about Paladins...how far off the topic is that? How long was the Slavery discussion under the heading of Avengers....come on....just change the Subject of the email if it's too hard for you to keep track. >D&D Paladins can find themselves royally screwed when their precious Law is >used to shield an evil act. If they violate the law, they violate the core of their being--that Law is the only acceptable method to attain the Good. As i said before...i was obviously not talking in D&D terms. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:06:13 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >The impression I got from the original Immortals boxed set is that the first Immortals did it on their own (with some surreptitious aid possibly from the Old Ones). However, even the Old Ones are purely speculative as far as Immortals are concerned. There are no "gods" other than the Immortals and Immortal speculation on the possible existence of the Old Ones. Well, as I said it was just a thought. We can't know for certain if the Old Ones are true gods or just Immortal imagination until Mystara's creation myth is told. For instance, these woodland spirits that shelter the elves at the beginnings of the timeline. Who are they and what happened to them? Maybe the beginnings of the elven version of creation? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:14:39 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >I don't use the "parallel monotheistic" model for my fantasy religion. The problem with the majority of fantasy campaigns is that they were designed by people utterly ignorant of how polytheism works. People worship "the gods", you don't have people running around following only one god. Each god is consulted, as the situation demands, according to his, her, or its speciality. However, all gods are real. Some may be the gods of your enemy or may be evil gods, but they are all part of "the gods". The Romans took this one step further in assigning Roman equivalents to every deity they encountered. >The Jews gave them no end of troubles (gotta love 'em for it, too)... I don't believe the TSR designers were ignorant to polytheism. It's actually a pretty simple concept. You seem so angry for no reason. The designers decided to have the Immortals worshiped the way they wrote it. If you want to incorporate your polytheistic ideas, OK, but are the designers "utterly ignorant" for disagreeing with you? We're not talking about Rome or Egypt here. This is Mystara. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:38:39 EST From: Inconu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Scenario If a paladin had a strength of 12 (minimum class allow), and got struck by a shadow or simalar stength-draining creature, would she lose her special abilities and be treated as a normal fighter? Also, if a fighter had a strength of 9 (minimum class allow), and fell under the same scenario.....what would be the consequences? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:00:35 PST From: "Martin Edwards" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Nightfall in the Hollow World >If my understanding is right, the lands in the Hollow World are in eternal daylight except when a floating continent passes between them and the sun. Those continents and some of the lands wouldn't recieve this 'night', correct? That’s my understanding of it too. Note though that every part of the Hollow World surface is shaded at least 6 times during the year by Disa (the one that goes pole to pole). The surface of the continents are a different matter however. There are sure to be some areas that never receive night. >What I was thinking of was a culture like the one depicted in Asimov's "Nightfall" short story. If no one knows about >it, it's a story about a world that has several suns that never set all at once. But one man predicts that they all will and this is meet with controversy. When they do set, it is seen as a end of the world (whihc he later depicted in the novel "Nightfall"). Since this culture couldn't have been transported by the Immortals from the outer world it would have to developed in the Hollow World. Is that possible with the Spell of Preservation? Of course, it could have been a culture transported that slowly developed this outlook but then there would always be tales of the _night_ in their mythology unless the Immortals erased all their memories of the outer world. Comments? Very interesting idea. Personally I don’t have a problem with the Spell of Preservation thing. HW cultures have been forcibly adapted to irregular nights and lack of seasons. Adapting to a continuous sun is not such a huge leap beyond that. The orbits of floating continents presented in PWA3 are the same from year to year so any sudden, rare nightfall on this culture would have to come from a different continent. Maybe a small one with a slow orbit (much less that once per year)? Oh, and at an altitude where it won’t crash into the other continents one of these years ;-) . Martin Edwards ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:32:04 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points << Hit points is just something that i personally think was handled much better in the white wolf system then in D&D. -Inconu >> I don't necessarily agree with this. Although when a character has lost a high percentage of HP I do make a point of the fact that he can not perform to the fullest of his abilities. It's kind of similar to White Wolf in that respect. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #138 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, March 4 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 139 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Such... Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Definitions of Good/Evil (was Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery) Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Definitions of Good/Evil (was Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Bullets & Combat Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Definitions of Good/Evil Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:03:05 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario At 07:38 PM 3/3/98 EST, you wrote: >If a paladin had a strength of 12 (minimum class allow), and got struck by a shadow or simalar stength-draining creature, would she lose her special abilities and be treated as a normal fighter? >Also, if a fighter had a strength of 9 (minimum class allow), and fell under the same scenario.....what would be the consequences? >-Inconu This is the fallacy of relying too heavily on the rules... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:08:17 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points << I don't necessarily agree with this. Although when a character has lost a high percentage of HP I do make a point of the fact that he can not perform to the fullest of his abilities. It's kind of similar to White Wolf in that respect. >> True. but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. He could be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. It just doesn't work out all the time IMO. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:16:28 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Equinoxes and Such... Just wanted to thank those who shared the Equinox and Solstice info. I feel kinda silly, not having looked in the Holiday listing. Didn't think it would be in their. The info will come in handy. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:14:27 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Inconu wrote: >what rules are you using for bullet damage? If i recall correctly....it was 1d10, and if you rolled 0, you roll again and add ten to it. I know the chances of huge damage escalating from this is slim...but it's a little bit more then just a roll of one die. >Hit points is just something that i personally think was handled much better in the white wolf system then in D&D. These are just damage estimates I came up without referring to any rules. To me assigning such a different damage to bullets than arrow just doesn't take into account that both do basically the same damage. A bullet in the heart is the same as an arrow through it. However, glancing off bones or shattering does do more damage but I think that is too great since a bullet in the leg could be fatal and an arrow not though they both have the same chance to strike an artery. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:59:48 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Probably either, A) nothing, as min ability is only needed to start a career, or B) he still have all his ability, but can't advance anymore. Inconu pontificated: >If a paladin had a strength of 12 (minimum class allow), and got struck by a shadow or simalar stength-draining creature, would she lose her special abilities and be treated as a normal fighter? - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:04:26 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Inconu wrote: >If a paladin had a strength of 12 (minimum class allow), and got struck by a shadow or simalar stength-draining creature, would she lose her special abilities and be treated as a normal fighter? >Also, if a fighter had a strength of 9 (minimum class allow), and fell under the same scenario.....what would be the consequences? Both those requirements are only for character creation. Once the character begins adventuring, he is no longer bound by those rules. Fighters never lose their class and the only way of paladins losing class is by losing her lawful good alignment. What you basically end up with is a weak paladin but still a paladin. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:22:04 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario << This is the fallacy of relying too heavily on the rules... >> Why bother even making a post like this. Obviously you don't make a change in your game. That's all you had to say. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:35:38 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, stan wrote: >Re: Giants and Giant-kin >2) They evolved from Garls >My problem with this one is that Garls really aren't a Mystaran race, they're an Aelotian race, hmm ... from the planet Aelos. Of course this might not be convincing for some it is just my humble opinion. Not necessarily. The Garls also appear in the DA series of modules- DA3: City of the Gods to be specific. So they are definitely, canonically, a part of Mystaran history. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:50 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] >>"Opposite of law" is the more sophisticated rendering. "Opposite of gggood" is a much older, Moorcockian rendering. In the Moorcock novels, all Law was good and all Chaos was evil. The Mind Flayer was the first explicitly Lawful creature that was also defined as being "evil". Not quite. While Moorcock definitely presented his chaotic deities as nasty types, he did give examples of worlds where Law was triumphant. In such worlds, stagnation occurred and life as we know it was no more possible than in a world where Chaos was triumphant. He quite clearly suggested that humanity's only hope was a proper balance of law and chaos, as in the eternal city of Tanelorn. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:56 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-03-03 19:16:49 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >Even with >all that taken into account, the damage is the same so a 10th level fighter should be able to take a few shots easily but that's where it gets silly and starts looking like a bad Arnold movie. A bad Arnold movie? Surely you jest! (Or perhaps I am jesting....) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:53 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] In a message dated 98-03-03 17:59:17 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >Was there ever documentation that stated whether or not Avengers could be ggood, neutral, evil????? No. Avengers are from D&D, where they are defined as Chaotic. D&D has no Good/Evil axis. Generally, I would regard an Avenger who serves an Entropic Immortal as "evil" -- the others might conceivably be good at heart. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:54 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-03 18:50:21 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >>However, that is still henotheism, not parallel monotheism. >Never heard of it. What is it? Monotheism is the belief that only one god exists. Henotheism is the belief that many gods may exist, but only one is worthy of worship. I am not sure that the Ylari would meet either definition -- the Immortals that they revere include at a minimum Protius and Al-Kalim -- and there may well be others. But the problem is that the real world culture they are based on is strongly montheistic -- and carrying that attitude over to their fantasy counterparts proved a bit too tricky, it would seem. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:49 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: [MYSTARA] - Definitions of Good/Evil (was Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery) In a message dated 98-03-02 19:40:57 EST, Inconu@AOL.COM writes: >It all depends on what you consider evil. I consider an act done for the bbenefit of someone other than one's self is a good act. Something done for one's self at the expense of someone else is an evil act. That's why I believe it's evil. Those definitions don't quite work. Enlightened self interest (as suggested by the golden rule -- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is clearly a good thing. On the other hand, the lackey of an evil leader who unselfishly lays down his life for said evil leader is definitely unselfish -- and definitely doing evil, even if he never personally mistreats any of that evil leader's victims. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:47 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] In a message dated 98-03-02 18:28:06 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >Would a paladin from a culture that has slavery, own sslaves himself? Probably not. Although I can see one exception here -- suppose that the Paladin inherits some slaves, and there are no acceptable options for setting his slaves free in his society? In that case he is pretty well stuck with them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:46 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario In a message dated 98-03-03 19:59:10 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >If a paladin had a strength of 12 (minimum class allow), and got struck by a sshadow or simalar stength-draining creature, would she lose her special abilities and be treated as a normal fighter? >Also, if a fighter had a strength of 9 (minimum class allow), and fell under >the same scenario.....what would be the consequences? Neither of these situations should cost the character his class abilities. The character would be far less effective, but he would remain a fighter, paladin, or whatever. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:52 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] In a message dated 98-03-03 17:45:31 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >It's only recently that I've been attempting to see the wworld on the law/chaos axis but it's still confusing without the added AD&D alignment system. I believe that the Master rules boxed set and the modules based on it may have been the first D&D rules that got the law/chaos axis right. Then there was the _Champions of Mystara_ boxed set -- if having a chaotic hero didn't clue you in, nothing would. The biggest problem with the good/evil axis is that it is not a free choice -- whether the player characters are "Good" or "Evil" affects the entire tone of the campaign. On the other hand, a player's choice to make his character "Lawful" or "Chaotic" is more of a personal choice that defines his personality. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:05:03 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Definitions of Good/Evil (was Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery) Kaviyd wrote: >Those definitions don't quite work. Enlightened self interest (as suggested by the golden rule -- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is clearly a good thing. On the other hand, the lackey of an evil leader who unselfishly lays down his life for said evil leader is definitely unselfish -- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:18:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #139 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 982211f66efecfee05172317b0044764 >and >definitely doing evil, even if he never personally mistreats any of that evil leader's victims. In this case the leader has definitely got an especially strong hold on the lackey to have pushed aside his own survival instinct for a single person. This is an entirely different circumstance that it can't be compared to the good act of giving your life for another. A good character would lay down his life for another easily if he knows that the leader would go on to do greater good. Evil characters aren't likely to do the same hoping for more evil that he isn't going to get to share in. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:16:29 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >To relate this back to Mystara and D&D, it seems as if TSR agrees with me considering owning slaves is an evil act unless it benefits the slaves somehow. But does every NPC in Mystara agree to this? Isn´t it actually what the people of this setting consider that´s important. (Including the Immortals ofcourse) How many people on Mystara actually consider themselves evil? Are all Thyatians. (or at least those who own slaves) evil? I will also argue that a civilized non feudal pre industrial society will have great problems surviving. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:28:17 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, David Keyser wrote: >Also, even when slavery was widely practiced, some people thought it was wrong, but most thought that it was inevitable, that it would be impossible to eliminate it. Although it seems obvious to us now that it is not necessary, it was not so obvious back then. I still don´t see it so obvious that slavery wasn´t neccesary at that point. The economies of those cultures would have collapsed. As will probably the economy of Thyatis if they ever abolish slavery without any form of replacement. (i.e machines) I think many people forget that the situation at that time was very different from modern times. They didn´t have the technology, and they were not familiar with many of the ideologies which have a great impact on our ways of thinking. This is obvious ofcourse, but its effects are easy to forget. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:32:16 +0100 From: Peter Balazs Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Bullets & Combat Hi! >Even with >all that taken into account, the damage is the same so a 10th level fighter should be able to take a few shots easily but that's where it gets silly and starts looking like a bad Arnold movie. If hitting in your combat-system (i.e. rolling the right number) means that one character really has hit the other one, it is. But I don´t think that a character is any less sillier, if he has been hit by 10 arrows than by 10 bullets! >but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. He could be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. That´s what I meant! I use the combat-system just as a formal system! If somebody succeeds with her THAC0-roll, that normally does NOT mean, that she hits her opponent, but that her opponent gets more tired, less lucky, or better, she succeeded to hit her opponent marginally, but the opponent feels the pain and looses a little blood. Another advantage of seeing the combat-system formally is that you then will habe no problem with the length of a round. If an attack in the combat-system means an attack in the fight, the length of 1 minute for a round is completly senseless. >what rules are you using for bullet damage? If i recall correctly....it was 1d10, and if you rolled 0, you roll again and add ten to it. I know the chances of huge damage escalating from this is slim...but it's a little bit more then just a roll of one die. But the average damage you do with this system is ~8,2. That´s for example less than 10,5 (W20 or 3W6). (I hope there was no mistake in my calculation!) >Hit points is just something that i personally think was handled much better in the white wolf system then in D&D. please inlight us, how the system works there! ************************************************************ Peter "Mr. XXL" Balazs Wurlitzerg. 37/12 1160 Wien 9003307@unet.univie.ac.at http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs ************************************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:46:56 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Well, as I said it was just a thought. We can't know for certain if the Old Ones are true gods or just Immortal imagination until Mystara's creation myth is told. For instance, these woodland spirits that shelter the elves at the beginnings of the timeline. Who are they and what happened to them? Maybe the beginnings of the elven version of creation? IMC these are either spirits (as detailed in the Ethengar Gaz) or Faeries. Probably both. The Ethengar Gaz seems to imply that spirits didnt appear on Mystara before Blackmoor, but I have always ignored that as I find it extremely silly and inappropriate. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:04:30 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >But there are problems with the player/character defining what is good or evil also. Is it okay for a player to play a paladin and in a sudden fit of greed argue that stealing is okay for a good cause? >Of course there have to be standards... I don´t think this is as much of a problem really. A player decides that he thinks stealing is a good act. (Islam does not consider stealing a sin if its your only way of surviving btw) However. If the PCs immortal says stealing is evil, and the PC doesnt obey, then he can wave bye-bye to his powers and continue his life as a normal fighter. >One can either judge morality from a standard of some sort (for instance to a Christian, sin is anything which seperates us from God...for a Libertarian, bad is anything that inhibits one's freedom.) >or one can try and work with a player to define a code of ethics for the character. This was something that occurred to me back in the days before the Immortals. When clerics were aligned with a philosophy and temples were barely defined in individual modules. I think the best way of defining this is that every religion has their own definitions of good and evil. If they have those concepts at all. >It occurred to me that the alignment system does not really work. As I said to another DM (Forgotten Realms) in my group: >"Who's standards? I'm a Christian you are not. We disagree on several points concerning morality. I am playing a paladin in your game. I am never all that sure what to expect in any given situation." >His reply: "My standards. I define what is right and what is wrong." >Actually I think this is ok if beliefs are well defined. For instance a paladin of Koryis might not be allowed to use any weapons but must instead subdue all intelligent opponents. The DM can define this as a good standard. Anything that might provoke a person might be considered evil. Yup. I think the best way of doing this is to write down the guidelines somewhere. Or talk them over with your players so that everyone have a general understanding of what various philosophies consider good and evil. I´ve had a problem in some of the campaings I´ve been involved with that the GM´s decicions have seemed arbitrary. >This is just an example off the top of my head and I am sure there are all kinds of holes in it. The point is that the standards for what is good and what is evil are either defined by the DM based on the particular belief in question, or the standards are defined by the DM and the player with both inputing from their own personal beliefs. I think we agree here. Ofcourse, I see no reason why there couldn´t be a PC who thinks that what these people say is somewhat wrong and make up his own philosophy. Ie. if slavery is accepted by the church and the majority of the people, there could still be people around who consider it evil. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:13:18 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >If you are playing AD&D and wish to use the Good-Evil alignment axis, then you have to accept that there is an objective definition of Good and Evil, whether the characters in the game acknowledge it or not. That is one reason that I do not like to use the Good-Evil axis -- while I do think that Good and Evil have meaning apart from our own subjective ideas, I do not like to require players to evaluate their player characters in terms that the characters would not understand. The Law-Chaos axis (if not confused with Good-Evil) meets this test quite well -- but there are definite problems with requiring players to determine whether their characters are Good or Evil by standards other than those of the character (who will inevitably regard himself as "Good" -- especially if he is not). I guess that is one of the reasons why I dont use AD&D. Even at the time when I used OD&D I decided to remove the alignment system. I´m not trying to force the rest of you to do the same. However I do find the Alignment system totally unrealistic. And I would like to discuss Mystara without being restrained by the AD&D system (Especially since it wasn´t part of Mystara originally.) What I would like is to describe Mystara in a realistic way and then see how various Game systems could be applied to the setting. Not force the system down upon the Setting removing every interesting detail from the setting that doesn´t quite fit with the rules. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:15:37 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Definitions of Good/Evil << On the other hand, the lackey of an evil leader who unselfishly lays down his life for said evil leader is definitely unselfish - -- and definitely doing evil, even if he never personally mistreats any of that evil leader's victims. >> I don't really think that the lackey is doing a good deed in this instance. I'd see that as a lawfull deed more than anything. If he never personally mistreats and all that.....then he's not evil. Working for evil doesn't make you evil by association. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:18:05 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-02 17:08:27 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >>This is all linked with alignment I suppose. Seriously, What has the moral ooof the 90's got to do in a medeival/rennessance setting? >That's funny -- I thought that the debates over the morality of slavery began in the 1700s or 1800s, not in the 1990s. Point :P What I meant was that the Alignmet system is based on the values of the 90s. Actually I think the values of the 1700s would be inappropriate for the Mystara setting. >Here is an interesting historical question that could help us out -- what is the earliest historical statement that we can find by anyone in any place denouncing the practice of slavery as wrong? If it is early enough, it could have some force in fantasy settings based on that era. Ofcourse, you have ideas like, is it evil to have human slaves but not non-humans? What is the definition of human? Tha Hattians might have their own definitions of that term aswell.... Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #139 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, March 4 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 140 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 Re: [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Bullets & Combat Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Definitions of Good/Evil (was Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery) Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:22:12 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << But does every NPC in Mystara agree to this? Isn´t it actually what the people of this setting consider that´s important. (Including the Immortals ofcourse) How many people on Mystara actually consider themselves evil? >> This is about a general rule. Whether or not slavery is evil. This has nothing to do with the opinion of Immortals. Their opinion isn't absolute. It's the definition of what is/isn't evil. I really doubt many on Mystara would consider themselves evil, but what does that have to do with slavery being good/evil. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:22:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, stan wrote: >>Re: Giants and Giant-kin >>2) They evolved from Garls >>My problem with this one is that Garls really aren't a Mystaran race, they're an Aelotian race, hmm ... from the planet Aelos. Of course this might not be convincing for some it is just my humble opinion. >Not necessarily. The Garls also appear in the DA series of modules- DA3: City of the Gods to be specific. So they are definitely, canonically, a part of Mystaran history. Where is Aelos? Is that the fifth planet that exploded? Also, does anyone have names for the planets? I'm assuming the mystaran solar system is like ours, with maybe 6 visible planets. Perhaps they'd be called after the major immortals of the region you're in, wonder what the Glantrians would call them? gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:31:52 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: ><< . What you have >been discussing is whether you think slavery is evil or not. I assume that most people on this list find slavery evil. >> >It all depends on what you consider evil. I consider an act done for the benefit of someone other than one's self is a good act. Something done for one's self at the expense of someone else is an evil act. That's why I believe it's evil. The reason i think this thread should end is for the fact that it's going nowhere and everyone has just stated and restated their ideas over and over again. I think you fail to see my point. What people have been stating is their own opinions on slavery and on good/evil. I am arguing whether we should have an official definition of good/evil. It all depends on who you ask, right? Gengis Khan would probably be considered a good man by many Mongols, in spite of his cruelty. Today we may characterize them as evil, but that is at least partially because we are from a different culture. If you met Gengis Khan, he would certainly have a different opinion on good/evil than you. But who is right? I would say that there isn´t any answer to that. And if any of us where to argue with Gengis he´d probably kill us so.... ;P Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:36:32 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: ><< But does every NPC in Mystara agree to this? Isn´t it actually what the ppeople of this setting consider that´s important. (Including the Immortals ofcourse) How many people on Mystara actually consider themselves evil? >> >This is about a general rule. Whether or not slavery is evil. This has nothing to do with the opinion of Immortals. Their opinion isn't absolute. It's the definition of what is/isn't evil. I really doubt many on Mystara would consider themselves evil, but what does that have to do with slavery being good/evil. What I´m saying is that there is no general rule. It isn´t in the real world and thus I dont think it should be on Mystara. I agree with you on the fact that slavery is evil. But those are only our opinions. Not general rules. Anyone are free to disagree, right? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:38:54 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #133 On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Gordon McCormick wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >>On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, stan wrote: >>>Re: Giants and Giant-kin >>>2) They evolved from Garls >>>My problem with this one is that Garls really aren't a Mystaran race, they're an Aelotian race, hmm ... from the planet Aelos. Of course this might not be convincing for some it is just my humble opinion. >>Not necessarily. The Garls also appear in the DA series of modules- DA3: City of the Gods to be specific. So they are definitely, canonically, a part of Mystaran history. >Where is Aelos? Is that the fifth planet that exploded? >Also, does anyone have names for the planets? I'm assuming the mystaran solar system is like ours, with maybe 6 visible planets. Perhaps they'd be called after the major immortals of the region you're in, wonder what the Glantrians would call them? DM made up a list of names for them based on Immortals. It can be found on DM´s website. I dont really feel comfortable with those names, but I dont have any better ideas so... Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:44:45 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Bullets & Combat << >Hit points is just something that i personally think was handled much better in the white wolf system then in D&D. please inlight us, how the system works there! >> Okay....there are seven levels of health before one dies. weapons have certain amount of damage. For example a sword could do about (str +2). Strength is rated mostly from 1-5. If a charecter hits with the sword and had a str of 3 then the maximum damage would be five (there is a roll to see how much damage was done. Also, a higher rateing of Stamina can soak some of the damage). So, we'll just say 3 damage was done, and one point was soaked for a total of 2 points of damage. The health chart: Brusied Hurt (-1) Injured (-2) Wounded (-3) Mauled (-4) Crippled (-5) Incapacitated For each wound level there is a description for effects your injuries will have on you, but i'm trying to make this post as short as possible. The charecter that took two damage would be on the hurt health level. The (-1) is to all rolls done while in this condition. There was a chance to be Mauled (at which point it becomes quite difficult to move around) but luckily for this charecter he survived with only being hurt. Incapacitated is practicily a state in which no movement is possible. The rules are much more in-depth than that, but that's the basics on it. The reason i like this system better is because if anyone is hit with a sword...it will cause some damage, and repeated hits will end in death. The rules in D&D just seem to get out of hand when in the higher levels the characters have so much hp. Is it really fair for a charecter to die in 2-3 arrow shots? I think it is. Is it fair for a charecter to walk around with 30 arrows in his back saying "I'm not doin too bad. Let's go to the brothel before we rest." It just isn't too believeable in my opinion. I've tried converting/mergeing the two systems in the past, but it showed to be too much work. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:44:03 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: ><< I would say a vamp would only fear holy symbol displayed by someone wwho have faith in the symbol. >> >yeah...that's a good point. Anyone else have thoughts on this....??? okay here are my thoughts: While a holy symbol itself doesnt have any power over the undead. It can be used for Turning the undead. Since a Vampire doesn´t automatically know whether a mortal can turn the undead, he has a reason to fear that from a mortal wearing a holy symbol. Many, especially less experienced vampires would fear holy symbols. More experienced vampires will probably be somewhat cautions untill they learn whether they have encountered a man of faith or not. Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:46:54 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >><< Upon what criteria is slavery automatically evil? >> >>The whole concept is evil. Forceing others to do your bidding. Giveing them no choices, rights, or recognition.....is there anything goodly to salvage from slavery? >Yeah! That's as evil as imprisoning murderers and denying them *their* rights. Do you suggest that murderers have the right to kill others? What about their victims' rights then? IMO murderers, by violating others' rights to live, have automatically forfeited their own right to be free (or even to live). >Who is to say that a Paladin must be a democrat? He isn't an autocrator either. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:52:25 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >>The campaign I currently GM is pretty low powered at the moment, but that may change. You may have a point concerning wizards. The Wizards will always be limited by their HT score, which limits the number of/power of their spells. However, powerful mages are probaby quite likely to have a wide range of powerstones available which supply extra energy for spell casting.=20 >By using powerstones, it would still make them very different from a "similar level" mage in D&D, as a powerful GURPS mage strip of his powerstone will not be that powerful. While a D&D mage, as long as he still have all his spell in memorization, can still wreck an army even if buck naked :). There might also be conversion problem in terms of casting time and power of individual spells. As GURPS spells, as written, are gnereally more time consuming cast and less powerful. As Leroy mantioned, there is the unlimited mana system. I haven´t had too much time to cheack that out yet, but Its probably worth looking into. Also as I forgot to mention, energy cost for spells is reduced for mages with high skills in spells. This allows them to cast more spells that less experienced ones. All in all the Mages will be different using the different systems. It all depends how much these differences matter to you. How often are your PCs naked when they fight armies? ;P >>As for 100HP characters, thats a different story. As I see it, HP in the xD&D games is meant to represent a characters fighting ability as well as his life force. A powerful PC in GURPS will have high weapon and shield skills(which means he will have a high parry value) as well as a high HT score. Though the HT will not vary that much. This will not produce the kind of characters who can destroy whole armies. I dont find that too realistic and will probably avoid that IMC. >Good point. I haven't thought about it that way. But one thing I like about D&D is you can have legendary characters, one who can rout an army single handly :). Again, GURPS Supers might be just what you need. You can use some of the advantages from that book without forcing your PCs to wear tight fitting suits :) Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:32:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #140 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 5bcc74a407f6b5ba1705e099108041e3 Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:58:39 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points In a message dated 98-03-03 21:24:39 EST, you write: << << I don't necessarily agree with this. Although when a character has lost a high percentage of HP I do make a point of the fact that he can not perform to the fullest of his abilities. It's kind of similar to White Wolf in that respect. >> True. but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. He could be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. It just doesn't work out all the time IMO. >> Think of it as the Hollwood movie version of reality... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 07:57:41 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario At 10:22 PM 3/3/98 EST, you wrote: ><< This is the fallacy of relying too heavily on the rules... >> >Why bother even making a post like this. Obviously you don't make a change in your game. That's all you had to say. Because it is my opinion and I have a right to post it. Why bother arguing it? Because you have a different opinion and you have a right to post it. However, I am afraid my statement may be coming off a little bit too abrupt. All I meant to communicate was the fact that the rules are there as a beginning place. The importance during game should be more heavy toward roleplaying. In fact several scenarios could result from a paladin losing his minimum requirements... 1) The player may decide he is no longer worthy of his patron and therefore will no longer use his spells and special abilities. 2) The DM may decide the storyline will be served by the paladin losing his spells and special abilities for a time. Perhaps a quest will resolve the problem. Perhaps all that is needed is a trip to see the head of his order... 3) No change results. The paladin is just unfortunate in being a little weaker. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:11:08 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country >>I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? Well, even though I'm Russian, I didn't start my campaign in Karameikos, because it has too little resemblance to my homeland. Has anyone noticed that TSR has made Karameikos more and more 'westernized' as time went by? Consider the portraits of Duke Stefan - in GAZ1 he looks like an old Russian czar or prince (the hat is almost a copy), while in K:KoA he looks like a western king. I think I'm going to 'Russianize' the Traladarans quite a bit IMC. As for my favorite country, I like to have campaigns in Glantri, as everybody knows by now :) I just love the multiple cultures, the magic, and the intrigue. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:14:24 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 11:42 PM 3/3/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-03 18:50:21 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >>>However, that is still henotheism, not parallel monotheism. >>Never heard of it. What is it? >Monotheism is the belief that only one god exists. >Henotheism is the belief that many gods may exist, but only one is worthy of worship. >I am not sure that the Ylari would meet either definition -- the Immortals that they revere include at a minimum Protius and Al-Kalim -- and there may well be others. But the problem is that the real world culture they are based on is strongly montheistic -- and carrying that attitude over to their fantasy counterparts proved a bit too tricky, it would seem. I was pretty sure that the Ylari people, in Gaz 3(?) were described as believing only in Al Kalim. That Protius was honored by Al but the Ylari people weren't really aware of him. I will have to check tonight... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:16:49 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] At 11:42 PM 3/3/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-02 18:28:06 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >>Would a paladin from a culture that has slavery, own ssslaves himself? Probably not. >Although I can see one exception here -- suppose that the Paladin inherits some slaves, and there are no acceptable options for setting his slaves free in his society? In that case he is pretty well stuck with them. Which could make for an interesting and sometimes amusing plot twist! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:18:55 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Definitions of Good/Evil (was Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery) At 12:05 AM 3/4/98 -0600, you wrote: >Kaviyd wrote: >>Those definitions don't quite work. Enlightened self interest (as suggested >>by the golden rule -- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is clearly a good thing. On the other hand, the lackey of an evil leader who >>unselfishly lays down his life for said evil leader is definitely unselfish -- >>and >>definitely doing evil, even if he never personally mistreats any of that evil >>leader's victims. >In this case the leader has definitely got an especially strong hold on the lackey to have pushed aside his own survival instinct for a single person. This is an entirely different circumstance that it can't be compared to the good act of giving your life for another. A good character would lay down his life for another easily if he knows that the leader would go on to do greater good. Evil characters aren't likely to do the same hoping for more evil that he isn't going to get to share in. Laying down one's life for one's friends is relatively easy...laying it down for an enemy though...that is something different. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:23:02 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 12:46 PM 3/4/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>Well, as I said it was just a thought. We can't know for certain if the Old Ones are true gods or just Immortal imagination until Mystara's creation myth is told. For instance, these woodland spirits that shelter the elves at the beginnings of the timeline. Who are they and what happened to them? Maybe the beginnings of the elven version of creation? >IMC these are either spirits (as detailed in the Ethengar Gaz) or Faeries. Probably both. The Ethengar Gaz seems to imply that spirits didnt appear on Mystara before Blackmoor, but I have always ignored that as I find it extremely silly and inappropriate. I prefer the idea of relating elven origins more closely to Aelos (the world from "Where Chaos Reigns") by having those early "wood spirits" be treants. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:31:11 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 07:22 AM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: ><< But does every NPC in Mystara agree to this? Isn´t it actually what the ppeople of this setting consider that´s important. (Including the Immortals ofcourse) How many people on Mystara actually consider themselves evil? >> >This is about a general rule. Whether or not slavery is evil. This has nothing >to do with the opinion of Immortals. Their opinion isn't absolute. It's the definition of what is/isn't evil. I really doubt many on Mystara would consider themselves evil, but what does that have to do with slavery being good/evil. I am totally confused here. Are you trying to define slavery as good or evil and remove the peoples' beliefs from the argument at the same time??!! Correct me if I am wrong, I am basing my understanding of your argument on the idea of trying to find a "general rule" and that the "Immortals' opinions" are unimportant... The very idea of having some sort of moral base stems from belief. One cannot define anything as good or evil without having some sort of belief. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:41:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >I prefer the idea of relating elven origins more closely to Aelos (the world from "Where Chaos Reigns") by having those early "wood spirits" be treants. Was Where Chaos Reigns a module? From Blackmoor? A novel? thanks, gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:41:30 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country At 03:11 PM 3/4/98 +0200, you wrote: >>>I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? >Well, even though I'm Russian, I didn't start my campaign in Karameikos, because it has too little resemblance to my homeland. Has anyone noticed that TSR has made Karameikos more and more 'westernized' as time went by? Actually they first Russianized it by including the Traladarans. The first references to The Grand Duchy of Karameikos were in the old Expert Set. The Traladarans were not a part of the setting until B10. And I can't really remember how 'Russianized' they were back then. >Consider the portraits of Duke Stefan - in GAZ1 he looks like an old Russian czar or prince (the hat is almost a copy), while in K:KoA he looks like a western king. Well the man is Thyatian after all. Before WotI the balance of power in his own country demanded that he adopt local customs. He was a statesman. One could argue that he began dressing more Thyatian to help offset any possible retaliation from his old homeland in declaring his lands a "kingdom". In addition the balance of power has shifted so he can go back to some of his old customs... I think I'm going to 'Russianize' the Traladarans qquite a bit IMC. Keep in mind that Stephen is not Traladaran. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:20 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >Actually they first Russianized it by including the Traladarans. The first references to The Grand Duchy of Karameikos were in the old Expert Set. The Traladarans were not a part of the setting until B10. And I can't really remember how 'Russianized' they were back then. Actually, Traladarans as depicted by TSR aren't very Russian, except for some names. I mean, Russians adore full beards (at least ancient Russians), and Traladarans SHAVE (blasphemy!) :) ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:28:36 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Inmortality At 01:41 PM 3/4/98 +0000, you wrote: >On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>I prefer the idea of relating elven origins more closely to Aelos (the world from "Where Chaos Reigns") by having those early "wood spirits" be treants. >Was Where Chaos Reigns a module? From Blackmoor? A novel? It was the 6th Companion level module loosely set in Norwold. The basic premise is that there are several ill omens across the land that bring the seperate lords and ladies together at a mysterious hut. The hut transports the characters to another world to save it from a techno-race bent on changing its history. There is an Immortal servant in the hut that explains the mission to the heroes and tells them that not only Aelos, but by direct correlation the pc's homeworld, will suffer if the techno-race is not stopped. This is the first published appearance of Hephaeston, Oards, and Garls. A neat little item called the Nexus is also introduced but unfortunately is never really explored in later TSR materials. I seem to recall a thread a while back that mentioned Zelazney's Amber and the myriad shadows that it casts. The nexus is a central point where all realities converge. A neat idea on an old theme I thought. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #140 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:09:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #141 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 9ed95c534edc0f85cd2a6d306cdbb254 mystara-digest Wednesday, March 4 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 141 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:32:07 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >>>I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? >Well, even though I'm Russian, I didn't start my campaign in Karameikos, because it has too little resemblance to my homeland. Has anyone noticed that TSR has made Karameikos more and more 'westernized' as time went by? Consider the portraits of Duke Stefan - in GAZ1 he looks like an old Russian czar or prince (the hat is almost a copy), while in K:KoA he looks like a western king. I think I'm going to 'Russianize' the Traladarans quite a bit IMC. Sounds interesting. I´d be very interested in hearing some of your ideas of how to russianize the traldarans further. I dont think I´d give them beards though :) My Traldarans are currenly based on both eastern europeans and celts. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:30:02 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Favourite Country At 04:07 PM 3/4/98 +0200, you wrote: >On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>Actually they first Russianized it by including the Traladarans. The first references to The Grand Duchy of Karameikos were in the old Expert Set. The Traladarans were not a part of the setting until B10. And I can't really remember how 'Russianized' they were back then. >Actually, Traladarans as depicted by TSR aren't very Russian, except for some names. I mean, Russians adore full beards (at least ancient Russians), and Traladarans SHAVE (blasphemy!) :) You brought up the Russian flavor first though, my friend. But wasn't the shaving a relatively new custom? Maybe I am misremembering... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:55:26 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stereotypes On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Glen Sprigg wrote: >>1. Well, let's start by taking out the half-elf and gnome races. I suppose they could be replaced by lupins and rakasta, but that only works in the appropriate settings. Gnomes could be kept, but consider them really rare. >Gnomes were introduced to me (not as a player character) in the first gazatteer, so I rather for them to stay. I´ve done some stuff with the Gnomes IMC. Gnomes look exactly like Dwarves to the human eye. Some Sages have speculated that Gnomes are slightly shorter and have larger noses, but this has not yet been proved. Gnomes are not called Gnomes. Using that name would be the same as calling a Hin a Halfling. Gnomes refer to themselves as Buhrwarfs or Burfs for short. The name Buhrwarf means "fireborn." It comes from a legend which says that when Garel was creating the Burfs, he actually tried to forge them from iron. But he left the iron figures in the forge and they melted away, their lifeforces running into the fire. Thus the Burfsd were born. Burf and Dwarf legends differ on how pleased Garel was when he saw the result. >>9. Modify the artifact rules from WotI to replace the ones from the Book of Artifacts; that book doesn't do anything for Mystara. ´d love to see a compilation of artifacts/magical items for mystara. Don´t be shy. Post em. >>10. Finally, put magic items everywhere. Make the Realms look magic-poor by comparison. It seems that every 4th-level character has a couple of magic items lying around just waiting for PCs to collect. In the Keep on the Borderlands alone there must be at least 50 magic items scattered around the Caves of Chaos. Someone asked in a Dragon magazine (long time ago) if Alphatia had magic factories that pumped these things out regularly. Dragon said no; I have to wonder. >Don't know about the 50 magic items but I do think that Mystara shouldn't shy away from magic since the planet couldn't exist without it. Making it less magical will definitely kill it in more ways than one. I dont know how common Magic should be. In my Karameikos campaign AC999 magic is relatively rare. However there are a lot of powerful mages around. Especially in Alfheim, Thyatis and Glantri. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:10:02 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >Was there ever documentation that stated whether or not Avengers could be good, neutral, evil????? Read the D&D Cyclopedia, it contains everything there is on Avengers. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:12:00 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >Never heard of it. What is it? Henotheism is the belief that, while other gods may exist, there is only one god worth worshipping. Monotheism states that there is only one God, and no other god exists at all. Parallel monotheism has only ever existed in low-grade fantasy fiction and fantasy roleplaying games. It is when one presumes that everybody worships a single god and pretty much ignores the others except when the opportunity arises to loot a temple or somesuch. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:16:19 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >>Generally, in my campaigns, "civil law" and "divine law" are but one body of law. I don't use separation of Church and State-- >So, is every nation in your campaign that strictly religious? I think i I do not run 20th-century campaigns. "Strictly religious" in our eyes is only normal for the majority of human history and cultures. Thus, since the paradigm of fantasy is pre-industrial, the cultural milieu should likewise be pre-industrual, not a low-grad secular US with a thin "middle-agey" veneer. >misunderstood what you wrote here. In my eyes, it looks like what you're saying is that church is promonent in all nations. Religion has traditionally been a central feature of life in all pre-industrial human societies. I see no reason why it should be otherwise in pre-industrial fictional societies. I also consider the hard and fast separation of "mage" vs. "cleric" to be fairly dim-witted, also something that is purely 20th-century. Pre-industrial societies recognized licit and illicit wonder-workers. Licit ones might be formal priests or not, illicit ones were simply condemned as "witches" or whatever the local equivalent term would be. But in any case, all of them were seen as tapping into some supernatural power source, be it divine or demonic. There was no mechanical "this is magic-user magic", vs. "this is cleric magic". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:17:08 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >>But that's an AD&D Paladin. >So, i was talking about AD&D Paladins obviously..... So what? I was quite OBVIOUSLY talking about Avengers in the threat that you responded to. So it is YOU who needs to keep track of things. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >what rules are you using for bullet damage? If i recall correctly....it was 1d10, and if you rolled 0, you roll again and add ten to it. I know the Stupid rules, designed by an idiot who doesn't know the first thing about weapons at all. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:19:13 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >I don't believe the TSR designers were ignorant to polytheism. It's actually a pretty simple concept. You seem so angry for no reason. The designers So what? Throughout the history of TSR games, there has been no polytheistic model. It has always been parallel monotheism. This model was transferred to Mystara fairly mechanically, without any thought, I would venture. And angry? Dear boy, were I posting something in anger your monitor would melt from the language. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:20:24 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >If a paladin had a strength of 12 (minimum class allow), and got struck by a shadow or simalar stength-draining creature, would she lose her special abilities and be treated as a normal fighter? >Also, if a fighter had a strength of 9 (minimum class allow), and fell under the same scenario.....what would be the consequences? These are AD&D-rule-specific questions and explicitly excluded from this mailing list, as explained in the mailing list FAQ. D&D-specific rules matters are explicitly included according to the FAQ, however... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:25:46 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >True. but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. He could be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. It just doesn't work out all the time IMO. You are trying for realism in D&D. Forget about it. The game is not designed with a realistic paradigm. It is designed with a *heroic* paradigm. I have run realistic systems, and greatly like some of them, and when I want to run a realistic campaign, I pick a realistic system, but when I run D&D or AD&D, realism simply has to be chucked out the door. Pick the system to fit your desires, don't complain about the system. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:26:40 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >These are just damage estimates I came up without referring to any rules. To me assigning such a different damage to bullets than arrow just doesn't take into account that both do basically the same damage. A bullet in the heart is the same as an arrow through it. However, glancing off bones or shattering does do more damage but I think that is too great since a bullet in the leg could be fatal and an arrow not though they both have the same chance to strike an artery. What kind of bullet? What kind of firearm? What period of firearm? You're being *EXTREMELY* broad in your generalization. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:29:09 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >Not quite. While Moorcock definitely presented his chaotic deities as nasty types, he did give examples of worlds where Law was triumphant. In such worlds, stagnation occurred and life as we know it was no more possible than in a world where Chaos was triumphant. He quite clearly suggested that humanity's only hope was a proper balance of law and chaos, as in the eternal city of Tanelorn. This was part of his Eternal Champion meta-series, though. Gygax's early inspiration was obviously only the Elric series, wherein chaos was always evil and law always good. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:31:40 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >Although I can see one exception here -- suppose that the Paladin inherits some slaves, and there are no acceptable options for setting his slaves free in his society? In that case he is pretty well stuck with them. Oooh! I could see some very Pratchett-like situations. Imagine the poor slave who has his Paladin master do things like "Put me at my Ease." or "Make Small Talk", or other such terrifying situations. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:35:30 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-03-03 12:00:46 EST, you write: << Well since there arn't any in danger of being removed from existance there is no need to put them in the HW. I was just saying that if you wanted to include fire arms and put them in the HW the merry pirates would be the most logical place. And who is to say that if some SC pirates where added to the merry pirates and assimilated into the culture that they wouldn't have the ability to develop the fire arm.>> Okay, so now you are saying that SC pirates could be represneted in the Merry Pirates. I agree they could be there if that particular example of piracy was on a downward spiral. However, that band of pirates would not be assimilated Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:09:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #141 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 9ed95c534edc0f85cd2a6d306cdbb254 as such an action would be prohibitted by the SoP. Remember the government system of the Merry Pirates. There is not assimilation, just a loose banding together. And the SoP would keep them as is. Future developement of weapons such as firearms that were not in their KW history would also be forbidden. <> Oh so then it is okay to say "screw the starting level PCs". A firearm can and will inflict more damge as a crossbow bolt or arrow. Weapons such as muskets did horrendous damge. Early gun calibres were huge, 50 to 60 calibre as compared to todays NATO stanard .223. And I know what damage rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, and bows do to flesh and body of the target. I have hunted with each of these types of weapons. None of them are pleasant, but the gun related damage can be gruesome. <> No haven't ever "tried" to load a muzzle loader. More like "I have". Realistically I could get off about 2 shots a minute. Not bad, but not great. Though doing so won me $5 in a friendly wager. Now I'll admit that those shots were premeasured (powder). But any professional soldier or pirate using a musket would have his loads predrawn, prepacked, and stored in paper. <> Ah but then you have Immortals directly interfering with mortals. Not only would such sinkings be a breach of Immortal Law, it would also be pretty stupid. What is the use of having a SoP if you have to intervene to tone aspects down. But then all of this is moot since no such firearm developement would be possible due to the SoP. And I still see it as unlikely that the Immortals would place firearm bearing people among the HW races. << If you look at the HW in general pre Alphatia, the Pirates are up there in tech level and the Traldar are about middle level I believe but they do alright against each other. >> IIRC the Merry Pirates are factions of the KW's pirates. Their level of technology would roughly be the same internally. Compared to other races in HW, you only have to look at who the Pirates raid. The Azcans, the Milenians, and other nearby nations. And they are not raiding cities but small towns and villiages. Quick hit and run raids intent on a meeting minimum resistance. I do not see a pirate army marching onto a capital or engaging a regular army division. << Their home area is more then they would need. I mean how much stuff do the merry pirates do 100 miles inland? But that's not the point I was making. The Black Lore elves Torch weapon is similiar IMHO to a fire arm of sorts. Sameamount of damage for instance. >> Simular but it is still a defensive weapon. The Blacklore cannot and will not use their hand weapons for conquest. The fact that the Blacklore cannot explain how the torch works also limits it affectiveness beyond the valley. Pirates would go forth from their base of operations and impose their firearm backed will upon others. IMO the only way a firearm bearing band of pirates could be placed in HW would be for them to be placed in a remote area away from others. Bodies of simularly armed opponents would also have to be placed nearby to give the pirates something to do. Otherwise they would just become another Blacklore Elves. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:39:43 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >They didn´t have the technology, and they were not familiar with many of the ideologies which have a great impact on our ways of thinking. This is obvious ofcourse, but its effects are easy to forget. The flip-side of that coin is that slavery can be seen as slowing or even halting technological development. The book "Technology in the Ancient World" discusses this to some extent. While amazingly advanced prototypes were designed and built in the ancient world, they never caught on as a general technology. The author puts forth the thesis that one reason was the wide availability of slave labor without any demand for product greater than the slaves could produce. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:41:08 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 10:19 AM 3/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >>I don't believe the TSR designers were ignorant to polytheism. It's actually >>a pretty simple concept. You seem so angry for no reason. The designers >So what? Throughout the history of TSR games, there has been no polytheistic model. It has always been parallel monotheism. This model was transferred to Mystara fairly mechanically, without any thought, I would venture. Well...my first inclination is to argue with you. But I have to wonder what "Mystaran period" you are basing this on. In other words are you referring to pre-Immortal Mystara in which all clerics followed a vague philosophy of lawful, neutral, or chaotic; or are you referring to a pre-Mystara/post-Immortal Mystara in which the various nations began to take 3-d shape but the Immortals were still fairly vague and no "worship" was really alluded to; or are you referring to post-Mystara when the Gazetteers were first written one by one and sometimes authors would fit things in with others and sometimes not; or are you referring to post-AD&D Mystara in which our beloved setting was crammed into a different rule system and paradigm often losing much of the flavor of D&D Mystara but sometimes gaining clarity elsewhere? I disagree, now that I understand the term better, that the various nations are parallel monotheistic. Thyatis in particular comes to mind with its practice of assimilating every Immortal they come across. >And angry? Dear boy, were I posting something in anger your monitor would melt from the language. Pretty good comeback. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:43:52 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario At 10:20 AM 3/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >>If a paladin had a strength of 12 (minimum class allow), and got struck by a >>shadow or simalar stength-draining creature, would she lose her special abilities and be treated as a normal fighter? >>Also, if a fighter had a strength of 9 (minimum class allow), and fell under >>the same scenario.....what would be the consequences? >These are AD&D-rule-specific questions and explicitly excluded from this mailing list, as explained in the mailing list FAQ. D&D-specific rules matters are explicitly included according to the FAQ, however... However, a paladin must have a minimum of 13 in Wisdom in order to cast spells. So the question can be legitimized to everyone's liking. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:47:02 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) In a message dated 98-03-03 19:16:49 EST, you write: << BTW, I figured that damage amount by comparing the damage an arrow and a bullet does to the human body. The only difference I see is that a bullet would have more power making the range greater (however, target would be harder to hit) and able to penetrate armor easier. Even with all that taken into account, the damage is the same so a 10th level fighter should be able to take a few shots easily but that's where it gets silly and starts looking like a bad Arnold movie. >> Ah yet another reason why I disdain the use of firearms in Mystara. A hit by a bullet does not go well with D&D HP. Perhaps a better way of determining the level of damage would be to base it upon a percentage of the target's HPs. That way the 1st level fighter would be on an equal level with a 10th level fighter in his or her chances of surviving the first shot. The problem then is that the person firing the gun is at a distinct advantage. Essentially his or her own level does not really factor in as long as close quarter combat can be avoided. For that the only thing I can think of is a Proficiency or Mastery system set up so that a low level musketeer can be handicapped in firing, reloading, and accuracy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:46:19 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] At 10:29 AM 3/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >>Not quite. While Moorcock definitely presented his chaotic deities as nasty types, he did give examples of worlds where Law was triumphant. In such worlds, stagnation occurred and life as we know it was no more possible than in a world where Chaos was triumphant. He quite clearly suggested that humanity's only hope was a proper balance of law and chaos, as in the eternal city of Tanelorn. >This was part of his Eternal Champion meta-series, though. Gygax's early inspiration was obviously only the Elric series, wherein chaos was always evil and law always good. What I recall from the Elric series is how evil the Melnibone-ites were even when Elric ruled. He was an "enlightened" king but his countrymen were pretty evil. Yet they were a lawful society... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:54:01 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers < I do not run 20th-century campaigns. Thus, since the paradigm of fantasy is pre-industrial, the cultural milieu should likewise be pre-industrual, not a low-grad secular US with a thin "middle-agey" veneer.> 20th century??? I hardly think that Mystara is anything like a 20th century campaign and this really has nothing to do with the US....although it seems like you just love dragging that country's name through mud in most of these discussions. I just don't understand how you can have a campaign where all countries are run in the exact same fashion. I'm not putting it down at all. It was just a question. < Religion has traditionally been a central feature of life in all pre-industrial human societies. I see no reason why it should be otherwise in pre-industrial fictional societies.> Okay, but the reason it seems weird to me is because of how Mystara is run. It's made in a polytheistic fashion. I was curious as to how you changed it to suit your campaign....but i didn't know it would be this hard to find out. ......and how is this "20th-century"? i really don't see the association here. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:55:11 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << So what? I was quite OBVIOUSLY talking about Avengers in the threat that you responded to. So it is YOU who needs to keep track of things. >> Chill out kid. It was you who first responded to me. Let it end now. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:58:19 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario << >Why bother even making a post like this. Obviously you don't make a change in >your game. That's all you had to say. >> I apoligize for posting this.... ...it was a rough morning.... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:02:14 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points In a message dated 98-03-04 10:40:03 EST, you write: << >True. but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. He could >be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. It just doesn't work out all the time IMO. <> There is realism in D&D. How can a DM paint a picture in the PC's heads if it's not described properly and realisticly. I've been able to run plenty of realistic campaigns in D&D, and haven't had any problems. I was stating an opinion..not complaining. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:04:33 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) At 10:35 AM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-03 12:00:46 EST, you write: ><< Well since there arn't any in danger of being removed from existance there >is no need to put them in the HW. I was just saying that if you wanted to include fire arms and put them in the HW the merry pirates would be the most logical place. And who is to say that if some SC pirates where added to the merry pirates and assimilated into the culture that they wouldn't have the ability to develop the fire arm.>> >Okay, so now you are saying that SC pirates could be represneted in the Merry Pirates. I agree they could be there if that particular example of piracy was on a downward spiral. However, that band of pirates would not be assimilated as such an action would be prohibitted by the SoP. Remember the government system of the Merry Pirates. There is not assimilation, just a loose banding together. >And the SoP would keep them as is. Future developement of weapons such as firearms that were not in their KW history would also be forbidden. ><> >Oh so then it is okay to say "screw the starting level PCs". A firearm can and >will inflict more damge as a crossbow bolt or arrow. Weapons such as muskets did horrendous damge. Actually the scariest thing as far as early guns were concerned was the chance of infection from a wound. I am not saying they weren't dangerous weapons, it is just that you can't really compare them with modern weapons. My inclination, given the size of the shot and the inaccuracy involved, is to actually make damages LESS than arrow damages. I have not incorporated a gun system as yet so don't ask me for details. But I do know that for instance during the Civil War, most people did not die as a direct result of being shot. It was the infection that set in later that was deadly. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #141 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:12:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #142 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 91ff8388876d0f020aa84fb709a1e2da mystara-digest Wednesday, March 4 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 142 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [none] Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points [MYSTARA] - Alignment Alternatives (was:- Slavery (was:- Avengers)) [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets [MYSTARA] - Re: B8 - Journey to the Rock ( Was : Rory Barbarossa Origins ) Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Shadow Elf Shamans ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:07:09 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers << I guess that is one of the reasons why I dont use AD&D. Even at the time when I used OD&D I decided to remove the alignment system. I´m not trying to force the rest of you to do the same. However I do find the Alignment system totally unrealistic. >> I agree. Alignment could never be used to truly fit every charecter. You can't fit every personality into only nine categories....nevermind three. I use it just for basic quick referenceing usually. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:08:23 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets In a message dated 98-03-03 21:39:05 EST, you write: << These are just damage estimates I came up without referring to any rules. To me assigning such a different damage to bullets than arrow just doesn't take into account that both do basically the same damage. A bullet in the heart is the same as an arrow through it. However, glancing off bones or shattering does do more damage but I think that is too great since a bullet in the leg could be fatal and an arrow not though they both have the same chance to strike an artery. >> As a side note, you can compare what the Torches of the Blacklore would do. It is true that penetration of the armor is a given if a Hit is rolled. But actual damage is different. A Torch is essentially a laser gun. And what does a laser do? It cuts a pathway through the target. The shock of being hit is not there as it would be with a gun. The damaged area is also cauterized from the heat. No bleeding and the wound is "clean". As long as vital organs are not hit, the target should theorectically be in fair shape. This tendency is the downside to lasers being used as frontline weapons in the RW. A laser hit on a tank would peirce the armor but unless fuel or ammo are hit the damage is minor, being limited to the diameter of the laser beam. Then there is the power source for such a laser. Too big for practical use. That is why beam weapons are following a different path on the modern RW battlefeild. Particle weapons are the most viable. Particle weapons pack a punch (kinetic energy) to their hit. Trajectory is accute. Velocity is approaching the speed of light. Ouch!!!! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:12:15 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << I am totally confused here. Are you trying to define slavery as good or evil and remove the peoples' beliefs from the argument at the same time??!! Correct me if I am wrong, I am basing my understanding of your argument on the idea of trying to find a "general rule" and that the "Immortals' opinions" are unimportant... >> Okay, this is what i meant. I'm not trying to define slavery as good/evil. I'm defining good/evil......then applying it to the idea of slavery. Good/Evil is described nicely in the AD&D player's handbook. If you don't have it, i could copy a excerpt from it on here, but i don't have it with me right now. I'll post it later, but if you have it ... just take a look and apply the documentation to slavery. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 17:07:49 +0100 From: Lorenzo Subject: [none] Hi everybody. I've joined this list just three days ago, so I say HALLO to all of you Mystarans! I'm desperately looking for the maps of the Shadow Elves' territories and cities. I bought Gazetteer 13 three years ago, but I lost the maps that were included. Does anybody knows of a site that legally publishes these maps (also partially) ?? Morgan (morgan@bbs.metro.it) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:15:00 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario << However, a paladin must have a minimum of 13 in Wisdom in order to cast spells. So the question can be legitimized to everyone's liking. >> True......if mages loose too much Int...can they still comprehend how to cast spells? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:56:39 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets << Stupid rules, designed by an idiot who doesn't know the first thing about weapons at all. >> What would you use for rules instead? It seems to easy to make objective opinions on something and not back it up at all. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:47:08 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] At 10:31 AM 3/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >>Although I can see one exception here -- suppose that the Paladin inherits some slaves, and there are no acceptable options for setting his slaves free in his society? In that case he is pretty well stuck with them. >Oooh! I could see some very Pratchett-like situations. Imagine the poor slave who has his Paladin master do things like "Put me at my Ease." or "Make Small Talk", or other such terrifying situations. Exactly the image that came to my mind! :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:46:57 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario At 10:58 AM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: ><< >>Why bother even making a post like this. Obviously you don't make a change iin >>your game. That's all you had to say. >> >I apoligize for posting this.... >...it was a rough morning.... Quite alright, brother Mystaran, I can understand how my earlier comment could be misinterpreted. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:49:57 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets At 11:08 AM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-03 21:39:05 EST, you write: ><< These are just damage estimates I came up without referring to any rrules. To me assigning such a different damage to bullets than arrow just doesn't take into account that both do basically the same damage. A bullet in the heart is the same as an arrow through it. However, glancing off bones or shattering does do more damage but I think that is too great since a bullet in the leg could be fatal and an arrow not though they both have the same chance to strike an artery. >> >As a side note, you can compare what the Torches of the Blacklore would do. It >is true that penetration of the armor is a given if a Hit is rolled. But actual damage is different. A Torch is essentially a laser gun. And what does a laser do? It cuts a pathway through the target. The shock of being hit is not there as it would be with a gun. The damaged area is also cauterized from the heat. No bleeding and the wound is "clean". As long as vital organs are not hit, the target should theorectically be in fair shape. This tendency is the downside to lasers being used as frontline weapons in the >RW. A laser hit on a tank would peirce the armor but unless fuel or ammo are hit the damage is minor, being limited to the diameter of the laser beam. Then >there is the power source for such a laser. Too big for practical use. That is >why beam weapons are following a different path on the modern RW battlefeild. Particle weapons are the most viable. Particle weapons pack a punch (kinetic energy) to their hit. Trajectory is accute. Velocity is approaching the speed of light. Ouch!!!! *ulp* I'm casting shield... *ulp* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:59:12 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >These are just damage estimates I came up without referring to any rules. To me assigning such a different damage to bullets than arrow just doesn't take into account that both do basically the same damage. A bullet in the heart is the same as an arrow through it. However, glancing off bones or shattering does do more damage but I think that is too great since a bullet in the leg could be fatal and an arrow not though they both have the same chance to strike an artery. What kind of bullet? What kind of firearm? What period of firearm? You're being *EXTREMELY* broad in your generalization.>> I think that that was his point. If you want specifics then you are asking for a very long post. Not only would several centuries of firearms have to be discussed but also an even longer period of arrow types. Arrows in particular utuilize different types. I currently have four quivers filled with four different arrow types for my bows. I have been an avid archer since age 4. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:17:18 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points In a message dated 98-03-04 10:40:03 EST, you write: << > True. but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. He could >be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. It just doesn't work out all the time IMO. >> This is something that has always bothered me. As we used to call it on the old TSR on AOL boards "the pincushion affect". We never did come up with a stance on it. Mainly just argued the matter. IMC damage is not taken literally such as 3 points of damage being a cut, 5 a gash, and 10 a big gash. Some rolled hits do not offer any noticable damage. Such hits are discribed as hitting the armor but only glancing or denting it. Though the rolled damage is deducted from the PCs HP total. Not only does this prevent a walking pincushion it also keeps the players guessing. A player is more prone to dash into combat recklessly if he or she knows exactly how much damage he has taken. This way, a PC is hesitant to use "hack and slash" tactics. There is more to it than that. But let us say that a PC down to 10% of his pregame HP total is tired, sore, stiff, bruised, beaten (appearance wise), and about upon his last legs. Penalties to strength, dexterity, and initiative are given to reflect this worn state. Usually the PCs get an idea that they are low on HP and tend to get more conservative. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:17:01 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alignment Alternatives (was:- Slavery (was:- Avengers)) At 11:07 AM 3/4/98 EST, Inconu wrote: >At some time, someone else wrote: ><< I guess that is one of the reasons why I dont use AD&D. Even at the time wwhen I used OD&D I decided to remove the alignment system. I´m not trying to force the rest of you to do the same. However I do find the Alignment system totally unrealistic. >> >I agree. Alignment could never be used to truly fit every charecter. You can't >fit every personality into only nine categories....nevermind three. I use it just for basic quick referenceing usually. Speaking of eliminating Alignments, a while ago (maybe six to eight months?) I mentioned the alternative that I and my friends use to alignments -- the 'FRPG Personal Code'. I shared my files with a number of individuals on the list at the time -- the 'original' (a long text version which was created by someone on the net) and the Word97 Template I use for my PC's (a much shorter version). I can re-post a text-only version to the list if there are interested individuals. I can also make the Word97 files available to the MML archive if that would be desirable. How the 'Personal Code' works, is that, instead of assigning an alignment, there are a number of questions that the Player fills in about their character. These questions deal with Ethics, Leadership preferences, Morals, etc. There is also a section at the beginning for writing down the characters basic history before 'adventuring' started. Players are encouraged to 'update' their answers to the questions after every other adventure or so, to reflect the natural changes that occur in the character's outlook due to life experiences and general maturation. After the form has been filled in, you can generally determine the type of alignment that player would fall into, in case you need it, but you can also see that two characters may both fall into a 'Lawful Good' clasification, but they may also have different outlooks and view points on specific concerns, such as aiding strangers or abandoning their friends. BTW: when I do deal with alignments, I tend to refer to the AD&D format, although instead of the regular '9' (LG, LN, LE, NG, N, NE, CG, CN, CE) there are an infinite number of variations. Refering to the two 'Lawful Good' characters above, one might be LG with leanings towards NG (i.e., doing good tends to be more "important" to that person than "following the law") while that other might be basicly LG with leanings towards true N (i.e., "being lawful" and "doing good" are prefered, but there are times and situations when "maintaining a balance" is consider the best response). Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:33:48 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points << True. but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. He could be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. It just doesn't work out all the time IMO. -Inconu >> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:12:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #142 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 91ff8388876d0f020aa84fb709a1e2da Why doesn't this workout? This character has been hit with 20 arrows this round. He's taking 20d6 (if flight arrows) or 20d8 damage if his enemies have only a basic proficiency. Average damage is 70 or 90 pts. This guy is going to be hurting. Even if he was only hit with 5 arrows the challenge is still there. This character has to fight more people than he can handle. Plus a 100hp fighter isn't too common anyways. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:39:46 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario >These are AD&D-rule-specific questions and explicitly excluded from this mailing list, as explained in the mailing list FAQ. D&D-specific rules matters are explicitly included according to the FAQ, however... These posts are to be made by the ADMIN. If the thread got to long he would cut it. steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:45:21 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: ><< >However, a paladin must have a minimum of 13 in Wisdom in order to cast spells. So the question can be legitimized to everyone's liking. >> >True......if mages loose too much Int...can they still comprehend how to cast spells? I think what i would do is to lower the level of spell the player could cast....say if your int gets too low lower the max spell level allowed for the character. That and maybe make them relearn their spells. (kinda like people who get into car accidents and have to relearn how to walk) but who knows.....depends on how evil i'm feeling *WHEN* i do this :> steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:15:24 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>These are AD&D-rule-specific questions and explicitly excluded from this mailing list, as explained in the mailing list FAQ. D&D-specific rules matters are explicitly included according to the FAQ, however... >However, a paladin must have a minimum of 13 in Wisdom in order to cast spells. So the question can be legitimized to everyone's liking. In that case, I would say that such a Paladin would no longer be able to cast spells until either his wisdom was returned to 13+ *or* he was able to get his supernal Patron to grant some kind of specific aid to him. Then again, I see no difference between "major character difficulty" and "major adventure opportunity". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:14:21 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets >>what rules are you using for bullet damage? If i recall correctly....it was 1d10, and if you rolled 0, you roll again and add ten to it. I know the >Stupid rules, designed by an idiot who doesn't know the first thing about weapons at all. So you are saying the designer is incorrect and you are the one who knows what kind of damage an arquebus does to an body on a magical fantasy world? Why don't you tell us all how many dice we should roll? I wonder why TSR never hired you? Maybe because you can only wine and bitch about the rules without backing up your statements or offering any suggestions on how we may improve what is provided for us in the current published material. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:04:16 +0100 From: "Tomás Sánchez" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: B8 - Journey to the Rock ( Was : Rory Barbarossa Origins ) Matthew Levy wrote: >perhaps it would help if i sent you my Tuma timeline when i get it revised again. basically it relates to the B4 project ... we are interested in tying together the scraps of canon info we can find in the B series modules, especially B4, 7, and 8 which detail particular locations/cultures which don't show up in later material very much. Sure. I'll gladly take a look at what you've come with. I own a copy of " B8 : Journey to the Rock " and this legendary city has always puzzled me. Thanks in advance. Tomás Sánchez Jr deckard@encomix.es *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:18:15 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >Well...my first inclination is to argue with you. But I have to wonder what "Mystaran period" you are basing this on. In other words are you referring to pre-Immortal Mystara in which all clerics followed a vague philosophy of lawful, neutral, or chaotic; or are you referring to a Atheistic religion--no polytheism. >pre-Mystara/post-Immortal Mystara in which the various nations began to take 3-d shape but the Immortals were still fairly vague and no "worship" No worship at all--no polytheism. >was really alluded to; or are you referring to post-Mystara when the Gazetteers were first written one by one and sometimes authors would fit When things appeared here, it was mostly of the parallel monotheistic model--characters were presumed to worship an individual god who happened to get along with some other gods or not get along with some other gods. >things in with others and sometimes not; or are you referring to post-AD&D Mystara in which our beloved setting was crammed into a different rule system and paradigm often losing much of the flavor of D&D Mystara but sometimes gaining clarity elsewhere? Kind of like drinking Listerine... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:18:45 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >What I recall from the Elric series is how evil the Melnibone-ites were even when Elric ruled. He was an "enlightened" king but his countrymen were pretty evil. Yet they were a lawful society... They worshipped Chaos--Aurochs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >20th century??? I hardly think that Mystara is anything like a 20th century campaign and this really has nothing to do with the US....although it seems like you just love dragging that country's name through mud in most of these discussions. The social assumptions underlying much of Mystara are 20th-century US, to be expected, given the origins of the authors of much of its material. Also, I challenge you to point out exactly where and when I have dragged my country's name through the mud (metaphorically speaking). >I just don't understand how you can have a campaign where all countries are run in the exact same fashion. I'm not putting it down at all. It was just a They're not run in the exact same fashion. Is Indiana exactly like New York? Is Chicago exactly like New Orleans? Nevertheless, all adhere to the principle of separation of church and state. >Okay, but the reason it seems weird to me is because of how Mystara is run. It's made in a polytheistic fashion. I was curious as to how you changed it to suit your campaign....but i didn't know it would be this hard to find out. I run it polytheistically, of course, implementing a couple of decades of studying comparative religion in my spare time, with input from my wife, who has an anthropology degree. I recommend "A History of Religious Ideas" by Mircea Eliade as an introduction. >......and how is this "20th-century"? i really don't see the association The separation of "cleric" and "mage" magic is 20th-century because that separation didn't exist until the advent of D&D in the 20th century. Before that time, it was a far fuzzier line. After all, if you consult any good work on Egyptian magic on your bookshelf, you will see no difference at all. Any of the scholarly works on medieval magic that you have will also show a far less hard-and-fast division than is seen in much of modern gaming. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:29:01 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >defining good/evil......then applying it to the idea of slavery. Good/Evil is described nicely in the AD&D player's handbook. If you don't have it, i could Fine, but I run D&D and prefer a more complex view of what constitutes Good and Evil--one that allows for much more moral ambiguity. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:31:34 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: ><< Stupid rules, designed by an idiot who doesn't know the first thing about wweapons at all. >> >What would you use for rules instead? It seems to easy to make objective opinions on something and not back it up at all. "http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/DnD/Guns/Gonnes.html" It contains AD&D rules for handgonnes, long gonnes, black powder artillery, black powder as an explosive, and siege warfare with black powder explosives and artillery. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:34:00 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >What I´m saying is that there is no general rule. It isn´t in the real world and thus I dont think it should be on Mystara. I agree with you on the fact that slavery is evil. But those are only our opinions. Not general rules. Anyone are free to disagree, right? Actually, it is the general rule. TSR has defined evil pertaining to our game. Going by what they say slavery is evil. I understand what you're saying about it being an opinion in the RW. In TSR's world they have defined it for us. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:40:12 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets < So you are saying the designer is incorrect and you are the one who knows what kind of damage an arquebus does to an body on a magical fantasy world? Why don't you tell us all how many dice we should roll? I wonder why TSR never hired you? Maybe because you can only wine and bitch about the rules without backing up your statements or offering any suggestions on how we may improve what is provided for us in the current published material. >> Not my choice of words.....but i do agree. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:44:27 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << What kind of bullet? What kind of firearm? What period of firearm? You're being *EXTREMELY* broad in your generalization.>> >> I believe only one firearm has been introduced to D&D. It was the arquebus. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:56:19 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets << "http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/DnD/Guns/Gonnes.html" It contains AD&D rules for handgonnes, long gonnes, black powder artillery, black powder as an explosive, and siege warfare with black powder explosives and artillery. >> Okay, i was hoping you could post something of your views on the list.... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:04:56 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 02:34 PM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: >>What I´m saying is that there is no general rule. It isn´t in the real world and thus I dont think it should be on Mystara. I agree with you on the fact that slavery is evil. But those are only our opinions. Not general rules. Anyone are free to disagree, right? >Actually, it is the general rule. TSR has defined evil pertaining to our game. Going by what they say slavery is evil. I understand what you're saying about it being an opinion in the RW. In TSR's world they have defined it for us. Your point being...? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:56:40 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Shadow Elf Shamans ><< > Here is one that has always confused me. In the Shadowelves Gazetteer the >>Shaman are always referred to with feminine pronouns. Yet nowhere does it state that only female Shadowelves can be Shaman. So was this just a sad attempt to be politically correct at the expense of clarity? >> It does however state that the majority of shamans are female - something like 60%. (I'm sure Fabrizio will correct me if I'm wrong! ;-) But aren't the feminine pronouns used throughout that gazetteer? I have a feeling you are right about that last part anyway. Using feminine pronouns in order to be "politically correct" just doesn't work - if anything it's worse than using masculine pronouns, since most people (whether they like to admit it or not) are used to reading masculine pronouns in many contexts as gender neutral pronouns, but no one is used to reading feminine pronouns as gender neutral. (Yep - they're gender chaotic! ;-) Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #142 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #143 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 6671bc3c85157aedbd050ecc34688729 mystara-digest Wednesday, March 4 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 143 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Nightfall in the Hollow World Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Period of Preference Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country Re: [MYSTARA] - Koruk Barbarossa or Rory Barbarossa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:28:02 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Sat, 28 Feb 1998 Kaviyd wrote: TTThis makes me wonder. Does anyone recall the original creators of MMMystara (the Known World) or those that contributed to it (besides Bruce and Aaron who aren't with TSR any longer I believe)? Just got me thinking that if it did return, there's a lot of background that could easily be overlooked. >Ann Dupuis headed up two of the PWAs, if I am not mistaken. But you have identified one major problem with bringing back Mystara -- none of its principal creators are with TSR any more. To do this right, TSR/WotC will need to negotiate deals with Aaron, Bruce, and perhaps others to do some freelance work for them. Right, but weren't Aaron Allston and Ann Dupuis working freelance for TSR anyway with the products they did? Definitely the biggest problem with bringing back Mystara now is that Bruce Heard would not be in charge of things, and thus would not be able to make sure things don't get changed between the old version and the new. Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:09:11 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >don't you tell us all how many dice we should roll? I wonder why TSR never hired you? Maybe because you can only wine and bitch about the rules without backing up your statements or offering any suggestions on how we may improve what is provided for us in the current published material. "http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/DnD/Guns/Gonnes.html". Rules on hand gonnes, long gonnes, artillery, explosives, and siege, all written by me. So, how does crow pie taste, anyway? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:24:46 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Sat, 28 Feb 1998 Kaviyd wrote: AAAh, but we'll help WotC out with the relaunch of Mystara, making it bigger aaand better than ever! The Realms shall fall, Greyhawk shall collapse, and Ravenloft shall disappear into the mists. Mystara shall rule over all! >But none of those worlds will be completely destroyed -- the Immortals of Mystara will set up small enclaves for each of them in the Hollow World. ;) Never! Their dimensions will be severed for all time from the Mystaran multiverse, stopping all future incursions! ;-) Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:53:59 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Nightfall in the Hollow World On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 Galwylin wrote: IIf my understanding is right, the lands in the Hollow World are in eternal daylight except when a floating continent passes between them and the sun. Those continents and some of the lands wouldn't recieve this 'night', correct? What I was thinking of was a culture like the one depicted in Asimov's "Nightfall" short story. If no one knows about it, it's a story about a world that has several suns that never set all at once. But one man predicts that they all will and this is meet with controversy. When they do set, it is seen as a end of the world (whihc he later depicted in the novel "Nightfall"). Since this culture couldn't have been transported by the Immortals from the outer world it would have to developed in the Hollow World. Is that possible with the Spell of Preservation? Of course, it could have been a culture transported that slowly developed this outlook but then there would always be tales of the _night_ in their mythology unless the Immortals erased all their memories of the outer world. Comments? Why not? It sounds like a great idea. As far as I understand the Spell of Preservation, new cultures can develop as long as the old culture(s) it is derived from stays in existence as well. So this sort of idea is certainly possible. However, wouldn't it be more fun to do this with a relatively old Outer World culture, perhaps one that has always had a fear of darkness (the Antalians would certainly qualify for this if they are the least bit similar to real-world old Norse peoples - which they are). You could use a particularly isolated community or group of communities within this culture who have been in the eternal light of the Hollow World for hundreds, perhaps even thousands of years. Moreover, the tales of the "night" in their mythology can be part of the culture - no need to erase them! They simply view the loss of "night" as the end of their previous world, before they found themselves in their current paradise. Now, causing the "nightfall" is a relatively simple matter, perhaps involving a floating continent in an elliptical orbit. From there, you can pretty much use the storyline of the novel. Great idea, btw. Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:42:54 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 Inconu wrote: RRRRighting wrongs for the good of the people in a country is a Paladin's nnature. >>>I'm not saying going against the law..... more like trying to move for a change in the law. >>But that's an AD&D Paladin. >So, i was talking about AD&D Paladins obviously..... Why obviously? Please don't just assume people are on exactly the same wavelength as you are. It never hurts to clarify the context of what you're saying when you say it, rather than waiting for someone to misconstrue what you were saying and start an argument over it. >>D&D Paladins can find themselves royally screwed when their precious Law is uuused to shield an evil act. If they violate the law, they violate the core of their being--that Law is the only acceptable method to attain the Good. >As i said before...i was obviously not talking in D&D terms. Then say so! Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:50:54 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What time period do you prefer to play in Mystara >1) Which era of Mystara do you prefer to play in? The Gazetter era (i.e. around 1000AC), the WotI era (which I only know is sometime after 1000AC and before 1012AC), the Post Wrath era (1012 and later) or some other time period all together? Gazetteer era. >2) Why do you prefer that Era? I discovered Mystara through the Gazeteers, and have played mostly in the era of the Gazetteers. That time period has the most detail to it and to me is the most interesting for campaigning. Also, I disliked some of the ideas in WotI and the PWAs. Although I have DMed WotI once before, I prefer to start pre-GAZ and work through so that by the time WotI arrives the players can affect the events to such an extent that things can go a completely different way. (For example, at one point I had an idea for an elven campaign where the players are a mix of Shadow and Alfheim elves, thrown together and eventually becoming friends. Their efforts eventually centre around joining the two nations peacefully - which of course WotI does not allow.) In other words, in my campaigns the world starts out as it is in the Gazetteers and then deviates according to the actions of the group. >3) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: aa) The Gazetters re-done with only Post-Wrath era information? b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided bbut also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? c) The Gazetters re-done with both Pre-Wrath and Post-Wrath information pprovided, as well as basic improvements in the way of missing, etc information? c) most definitely. Ideally I would like to see Mystara revived in a style similar to the Hollow World setting - ie with a boxed set detailing the world on a large scale to start with, but with most or all of the history and a section on Immortals (all in AC 1000) and a separate booklet in the set detailing major changes from WotI through the PWAs. This would then be followed by Gazetteer-style books (boxed sets too expensive) on each of the nations. Each would essentially be a reprint of the original Gazeteer but with a whole chapter detailing "future" events and changes through to the present day of the PWAs. And of course maps would absolutely HAVE to be the old-style 8-miles per hex nice and colourful, not the awful things in the AD&D boxed sets. This way, we could get whole new Gazetteers on Heldann, Wendar, Denagoth, Hule, Sind, Yavdlom and perhaps separate boxed sets/expanded Gazetteers on Thyatis and its Empire, Alphatia and its Empire, the Isle of Dawn, etc. Then if that goes well, the Savage Coast and Hollow World settings could be introduced in the same way. Of course, it isn't going to happen. :-( >4) do you have any other comments about the different 'eras' of Mystara that you might like to share? Someone else mentioned some work on the Blackmoor and Nithia eras would be fun, and I agree. I've always wanted to set a campaign in Ancient Nithia especially, but there just isn't enough information to do it without a lot of extra work. I don't agree that the Kingdom of Nithia HWR was bad - on the contrary it would be essential reading for anyone wishing to expand on Ancient Nithia - but the geography and state of its comtemporary nations would be quite difficult to work out. Not impossible, just a lot of work. Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:14:48 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << What I´m saying is that there is no general rule.Anyone are free to disagree, right? >> of course...i just use the definition in the PH. but anything you come up with to be a rule should be fine as long as it works with your campaign.... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:48:16 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 Inconu wrote: <<< >I don't necessarily agree with this. Although when a character has lost a high percentage of HP I do make a point of the fact that he can not perform to >the fullest of his abilities. It's kind of similar to White Wolf in that respect. >> >True. but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. He could be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. It just doesn't work out all the time IMO. I agree - hit points are just not a realistic way of doing damage. Experienced characters can take more damaging hits than a lot of monsters can, without reducing their capabilities one iota. Why should a character who is more experienced be any harder to kill than one who is not experienced at all? Armour and skill should affect this, and perhaps also endurance/stamina, but not to such an extent as hit points give us. Does anyone use a system other than hit points to determine injuries in Mystara? Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:44:03 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Immortality On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: TThe impression I got from the original Immortals boxed set is that the first Immortals did it on their own (with some surreptitious aid possibly from the Old Ones). However, even the Old Ones are purely speculative as far as Immortals are concerned. There are no "gods" other than the Immortals and Immortal speculation on the possible existence of the Old Ones. Exactly. Throughout this thread the point has been missed - in Mystara, Immortals *ARE* what we would call gods in the real world. Or rather, they equivalent of what the Greeks or Romans or Egyptians called gods. As far as I am concerned, and as far as the official version of Mystara is concerned, the word "god" is not in the vocabulary of Mystarans. Instead they talk about Immortals. There is no need to compare Immortals to gods (presumably this arises from comparison with other AD&D game settings?) because they *are* gods. A letter to Dragon magazine answered by Bruce Heard during the Princess Ark series stated that terms such as "god", "religion", "demon", etc., had been replaced with less controversial terms "Immortal", "following", "fiend", etc., in order to minimise offense to people in the real world. (Demon/fiend may have come later, in retrospect.) Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:03:17 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #143 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 6671bc3c85157aedbd050ecc34688729 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Period of Preference On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 Leroy Van Camp III wrote: 333) If WotC revived Mystara in ANY way would you prefer to see: >>b) The Gazetters re-done with only Pre-Wrath era information provided bbbut also with additional information added to some of the publications which may be 'missing' tid-bits here and there? >If TSR ever plans on bringing Mystara back, I feel this is the way to do it, not just because it is the period I prefer. Rather, if they do a post-Wrath setting many newcomers will be somewhat lost. I think everyone should have a chance to explore the wonders of an Elven (non-Shadow) Alfheim, or enjoy a bit of Thyatis- Alphatian rivalry. WWhat fun would it be to get into a setting and see they already ran the villian out of town? (i.e. the Blackeagle Barony). Reading about all the fun stuff that already happened is no fun at all. I must say I agree completely with this Leroy. It's tempting to say that this is why Mystara failed as an AD&D campaign setting - because newcomers would see Karameikos as a Kingdom, Specularum as Mirros, and probably start with PWA3, in other words missing all the little nuances of the transition from the world we knew to the world we now know. If the setting had progressed any further, it would have been interesting to see what new directions it went in. Anyway, if it ever does come back, your paragraphs above describe exactly why it should be brought back in Gazetteer-era rather than later. Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:11:39 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 Alex295 wrote: YYes I agree. The best measure as to what a Paladin sees as lawful is within the Immortal he fights for. Though most Immortals have no stated veiw on the matter of slavery, a good idea can be reached by looking at the Immortal. A follower must be in tune with much of what the Immortal believes in. A Cleric and Paladin must believe in it even more so. Hence devine law would sway to hold more favor than national law. However, divine law may not necessarily be what we see today as morally lawful. Which is absurd to try to impose on a setting not based on todays morales. That depends entirely on how your campaign is run. For instance, most people regard the murder of so-called "monsters" in their campaigns as perfectly lawful (which is somewhat fitting to the time-period Mystara is based on, given the addition of "monsters"). Others will apply the modern morals and say that all murder is wrong - which is fine, because it fits too. "Good" and "evil" are not really defined in any detail in the official Mystara, so they can easily be "set" by individual groups and DMs within their own campaigns. It's the same for Paladins and Avengers - whatever works best within your campaign is what you should use. If you want Paladins to be ultra- lawful with no regard for "good" and "evil", that's fine. On the other hand if you prefer to have them specialised for certain Immortals, that is a lawful Immortal will have Paladins and so on, and two groups of Paladins following different Immortals can have different beliefs, that's fine too. And if you want them to stick steadfastly to "good" and "evil" lines, that also works. Let's face it, the D&D alignment system is just not well-defined enough or consistent enough to argue out which way is best. The AD&D alignment system has its problems too, as we have seen from people disagreeing over exactly what is meant by all the different terms. What I'm really saying is that searching for a description of good/evil or law/chaos that everyone accepts is not going to work, because there is too much inconsistency in the original material. And getting everyone to agree with your proposal for a standard is both irrelevant and a waste of time, because at the end of the day people will still do things the way it works best for themselves. Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:54:32 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Fine, but I run D&D and prefer a more complex view of what constitutes Good and Evil--one that allows for much more moral ambiguity. >> could you please quote from a D&D sourcebook as to what a "more complex view" is? If i recall correctly, it was AD&D which came out with all the good/evil rules...not D&D. The rules are more in depth in AD&D i think. Could you please also state what is so bad about the AD&D definitions of good and evil? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:06:17 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 02:44 PM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: ><< What kind of bullet? What kind of firearm? What period of firearm? YYou're being *EXTREMELY* broad in your generalization.>> >> >I believe only one firearm has been introduced to D&D. It was the arquebus. Where is the arquebus introduced? I only recall the matchlock from the Savage Coast. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:30:52 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - muskets On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: >Okay, i was hoping you could post something of your views on the list.... The article contains an explication of at least some of my views, better arranged than could be done on the fly. It is too large to post to a mailing list. Any table-aware browser will be able to handle it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:10:46 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >The social assumptions underlying much of Mystara are 20th-century US, to be expected, given the origins of the authors of much of its material. Where? Where? Where? I just want one instance. I understand most of the writers are from the US and wrote in the 20th century...but where is the US social assumptions that appear in the game? >Is Indiana exactly like New >York? Is Chicago exactly like New Orleans? Nevertheless, all adhere to the principle of separation of church and state. Okay....all which are parts of the same country. US laws and the Native Americans religious principles were never too similar. Which is why Glantri and Hule would have different ways in which to handle these situations. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:32:14 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >>I don't believe the TSR designers were ignorant to polytheism. It's actually >>a pretty simple concept. You seem so angry for no reason. The designers SSo what? Throughout the history of TSR games, there has been no polytheistic model. It has always been parallel monotheism. This model was transferred to Mystara fairly mechanically, without any thought, I would venture. Why would you think that? There is no evidence to the fact that TSR arbitrarily chose parallel monotheism. What's the difference anyways? Why should it have been polytheistic? What is your point? >And angry? Dear boy, were I posting something in anger your monitor would melt from the language. Yeah that's cute. You should reread your previous posts. You seem very angry. You've been insulting everything and everyone. You've often been calling people stupid and ignorant while ranting that TSR should have designed everything the way you have in your own campaign. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:23:01 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country >At 08.21 27/02/98 -0500, Daly wrote: >>I am addressing this to those Mystarans who live outside the US: Is there a particular country that you tend to start your campaigns in because of familiarity with your own RW culture? No. I'm from Orkney in the north of Scotland, so theoretically I am familiar with both the Scottish-based cultures (Klantyre) and Viking- based cultures (Northern Reaches, Antalians). But I have never played or DMed in either of these regions. I do have an ambition to play an Ostland cleric of Thor called Thorfinn Skullsplitter one day, though... Of course, since I don't know any other Mystara DMs, that is a bit hard to do right now. >>As a more general question to everyone: What Mystaran country do you tend to start a campaign in? Depends entirely on the players. Thus far I have started campaigns in Karameikos, Darokin, Alfheim, Rockhome and Glantri. Oh, and Serraine. (That includes campaigns I have played in.) Fabrizio wrote: >Place where I would never start a campaign: Ylaruam, Ierendi, Five Shires, HW, Savage Baronies. Interesting. Of these I would probably also not start a campaign in Ierendi or the Five Shires, possibly in Ylaruam (but more likely that a character from Ylaruam will end up starting somewhere else, as has happened in the past), I would definitely start one in the Hollow World if my players wanted to, and the same with the Savage Baronies. Unfortunately, all of my players refuse to play halflings because they view them as being too disadvantaged statistically. :-( Thorf. ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:04:22 +0100 From: "Tomás Sánchez" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Koruk Barbarossa or Rory Barbarossa Matthew Levy wrote: >Which way was the wrong way ? >>Koruk Barbarossa >>---------------- >>In 1492 some moors and jews expulsated fron Spain stablished themselves on Argelia and avenged their expulsion with acts of piracy. Fernando "El Católico" attacked and conquered the city of Argel in 1509. Koruk "Barbarroja", a famous turkish pirate, expulsed the spaniards from the country and implanted a despotic government of militarism and piracy that scared the christian countries for several years. >I think you may have missed the point of all of those posts and counterposts ... the name "Barbarossa" has been held by a variety of famous people in Mediterranean and European history, several of them pirates but also an emperor and apparently a singer (there is also a Willie Nelson movie, and the German invasion of Russia in 1941) ... I doubt David Cook or Tom Moldway had in mind an Emperor or a singer when they created this character. I think it don't makes sense. We can read on page 6 : " The ship's log is signed by Rory Barbarosa, a well-known adventurer and sea captain who died about 30 years ago. " We all know TSR writers have frequently used real life and novel characters as a source of inspiration. So, after taking a brief look at history looking for sea related men i thought i found the right man after the name of Koruk Barbaroja. >So referring to this particular Turkish despot as a source for the character in X1 is unnecessary, arbitrary, and when we look at the rest of his background, just plain misleading. ... >This is why I suggested that he be of mixed Dunael ancestry, probably of Thyatin or Ierendi citizenship, so that he could have a Celtic first name and be based out of Specularum in the 970's AC. I used several search engines looking for people whose name was Rory keeping in mind the celtic connection you apointed. The results displayed didn't clarified this point although i've not discarded the option. I'll thank any information you can afford regarding Rory's celtic roots. >>Rory Barbarossa >>--------------- >>Matthew told me the main inhabitants of Provincia Septentriona are of Alasiyan ancestry. If so, they should have kept much of their traditions alive although they should have being heavily influenced by their thyatian neighbours. Being Turkey the most occidental of the arabian countries i'd choose Provincia Septentriona as Rory's country. >Hang on Hang on Hang on. I said the inhabitants spoke a language and had a culture related to the Alasiyans, and probably split off from them ethnically as far back as 1000 BC.I don't know which "traditions" they would have hung on to, since at this point they were still under the sway of the Nithian Empire, but I hypothesize that possibly SOME of them could have been converted to Ylari ways by Al-Kalim or later proselytizers. >Anyway for the reasons I've said above Rory does not need to be based on the RW Turk, and anyway Turkey is NOT an Arabian country ... its language is wholly unrelated to Arabic, although the major religion is Islam. Of course, he don't need to be based on anything at all. This has only been my particular sight of the matter. Although, i believe firmly on it by now. >the Mystaran country that is most clearly based on Turkey is Hule, which is a whole nother bag of problems. I always thought Hule was based on Iran. >>Caerdwicca has been a haven for pirates for a long time. So, it's easy to relate Caerdwicca to the city of Argel. Would it be possible for Rory Barbarossa to have been its governor ? I don't know if there exists a timeline for the Isle of Dawn. But i'd thank anyone who owns one to check it for me. >i don't think there is one, but i am pretty sure caerdwicca doesn't have a governor and never did ... it's pretty independent. Anyway i think it was built relatively recently by uthgaard mcrhomaag so i think it unlikely that barbarossa could have been from there (and the reasons you want to put him there seem tenuous at best). I'm not that sure. I've checked the PWA's and that's what i've come with... PWA AC1010, page 24, says : Caerdwicca( Province of; Barony ) Important Figures : Uthgaard McRhomaag ( Baron ) PWA AC1010, page 44, says : Isle of Dawn In general, the nations along the eastern shore have been kingdoms of the Alphatian Empire, while the regions of the western shore have been provinces of Thyatis. >>I'll keep waiting for approval or alternative suggestions on the same thread. Thanks for your attention. >no problem. hope i haven't been too confrontational about this; let me know if you have any problems with what i've said. ... It was not as cool as ever. But it would be boring othewise. Just be less harsh next time, ok ? Tomás Sánchez Jr deckard@encomix.es *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #143 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:45:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #144 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 415f23983d455a45a152596926cd9959 mystara-digest Thursday, March 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 144 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Koruk Barbarossa or Rory Barbarossa Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Placement [MYSTARA] - Please Identify Quotes! Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Period of Preference [MYSTARA] - Survey Results!!!! [MYSTARA] - URLs Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Re: [MYSTARA] - Period of Preference Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country [MYSTARA] - Power to the little people! Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:24:11 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >>>What I´m saying is that there is no general rule. It isn´t in the real world and thus I dont think it should be on Mystara. I agree with you on the fact that slavery is evil. But those are only our opinions. Not general rules. Anyone are free to disagree, right? >>Actually, it is the general rule. TSR has defined evil pertaining to our game. Going by what they say slavery is evil. I understand what you're saying about it being an opinion in the RW. In TSR's world they have defined >>it for us. >Your point being...? My point? It was stated that there is no general rule on what is evil. I stated that I believe there is a general rule and I explained this. Your question is aimed at myself so I feel I should respond to it, but my point is pretty obvious. I really don't know what else to say. Let me try to simplify it for you. Is there a rule to what is evil? Him - no Me - yes OK? - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:28:14 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Thorfinn Tait wrote: >I agree - hit points are just not a realistic way of doing damage. So? D&D is not about realism, it's about Xena, Warrior Princess! Rather, I should say that Xena is the most D&D-like TV show or movie I've ever seen. >Does anyone use a system other than hit points to determine injuries in Mystara? If you want realism, my first choice is RuneQuest, from Avalon Hill. I've written rules for converting AD&D campaigns over to RuneQuest. GURPS is also a possibility, but it's more alien. RuneQuest still retains a more familiar feel to people coming from a D&D background. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:37:56 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Immortality << Throughout this thread the point has been missed - in Mystara, Immortals *ARE* what we would call gods in the real world. Or rather, they equivalent of what the Greeks or Romans or Egyptians called gods. >> Yes. They are very similar to Egyptian gods. Actually if you look into the rulers of Ancient Egypt some sources will mention the names of Gods as early kings. The mythological stories always have the future Gods living as creatures on Earth. I guess some Egyptians figured out how to reach Immortality. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:45 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Koruk Barbarossa or Rory Barbarossa << But the Mystaran country that is most clearly based on Turkey is Hule, which is a whole nother bag of problems. >> Don't tell THAT to my friend who studies history. He would really go mad about it. Turkey comes from Turk, the Asian horse people. In Mystaran terms: Imagine Ethengars living for years and centuries outside the steppes. And that leads us to the Makistani in Ylaruam. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:42 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Placement << Would I be correct in guessing that "Den Hund beisst der Junge" is an acceptable alternative for your second sentence? >> Well guessed! Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:48:53 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Please Identify Quotes! Mystarans: I'm trying to follow several of the current threads and I'm starting to lose track of who said what in many cases. This is exasperated by the fact that several people are not including quote identification information. Most of us use email programs that include a phrase like: "At some time on some date, someone said:" at the top of the quoted material from the message we are replying to. At the very least, please leave this bit in place, even if you are deleting the text from the original message that is right beneath it. Also, if you are including 'doubly quoted' material, and the previous writer has left the identification line in place, please leave that in too. I realize that in many cases if you just hit the 'reply' button, the email program may use 'you' in place of the 'someone', which is less than useful. One possible 'trick' that I've found to get around this problem with mailing lists is to hit the 'reply to all' button. Then the program will usually replace 'someone' with the name in the 'From:' field of the original message. Note that I usually then have to delete a duplicate mailing list address from the Cc: field, but that's a small price to pay to keep things clear. For those of you who's email programs don't add an identifier, or who don't have a 'reply to all' option, I guess that finding the users name from the From: field of the original message is the only option, but it would really help me (and probably others) keep track of what was said by whom if you could include this information. Thanks for your time and patience. Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:46 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] In einer eMail vom 03.03.98 01:58:19 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << Exactly. It is an *Avenger* who thinks that good is best attained by going outside the law, and especially by finding and opposing evil laws and institutions. >> Or "evil" in the case of an evil avenger. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:44:45 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points << Does anyone use a system other than hit points to determine injuries in Mystara? >> I've tried a few...but nothing that stuck. It's usually too difficult or too time consuming, but I'd love to hear anyone else that may have some ideas on this. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:49:25 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Where is the arquebus introduced? I only recall the matchlock from the Savage Coast. >> pages 68 and 73 of the Player's Handbook. It wasn't in the Rules Cyclopedia. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:51:58 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points << If you want realism, my first choice is RuneQuest, from Avalon Hill. I've written rules for converting AD&D campaigns over to RuneQuest. Could you post some basic rules that you've come up with? I'm ignorant to RuneQuest.... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:45:51 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Period of Preference Thorfinn Tait wrote: >I must say I agree completely with this Leroy. It's tempting to say that this is why Mystara failed as an AD&D campaign setting - because newcomers would see Karameikos as a Kingdom, Specularum as Mirros, and probably start with PWA3, in other words missing all the little nuances of the transition from the world we knew to the world we now know. If the setting had progressed any further, it would have been interesting to see what new directions it went in. >Anyway, if it ever does come back, your paragraphs above describe exactly why it should be brought back in Gazetteer-era rather than later. Actually, I believe it was TSRs desire to remove many of the characteristics of Mystara. They saw the conversion to AD&D as the proper time. From what I've seen, the technological history was to be removed and the Hollow World was to become a myth. It may have been interesting how they would have incorporated other Gazatteers and 10 to 1 one that the Shadow Elves would have become white drow. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:55:51 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Survey Results!!!! Hello All! Some time back I set out a survey asking list members what list-generated materials they used, and what they thought about introducing and discussing such matierial on the list. Well, I received 17 complete responses, and I will now share the results: drum roll, please... Please note that not all percentages add up to 100%, due to rounding. Peoples/Places Darine Use 29% Don't Use 25% Don't Know About Them 41% Modified them 5% Ungolwaith Use 29% Don't Use 29% Don't Know About Them 35% Modified Them 5% Kargoyles Use 12% Don't Use 53% Don't Know About Them 29% Modified Them 5% Lhomarrians and Selhomarr Use 41% Don't Use 23% Don't Know About Them 29% Modified Them 5% Kaarjala Use 23% Don't Use 17% Don't Know About It 53% Modified It 5% MOrient Use 12% Don't Use 23% Don't Know About It 47% Modified It 17% Timelines: Carnifex Tyranny Use 35% Don't Use 5% Don't Know About It 47% Modified It 12% Carnifex of Y'hog Use 35% Don't Use 17% Don't Know About It 41% Modified It 12% Varellyan Timeline Use 41% Don't Use 0% Don't Know About It 53% Modified It 5% Undersea Timeline Use 47% Don't Use 23% Don't Know About It 12% Modified It 17% Hyborian Timeline Use 23% Don't Use 12% Don't Know About It 59% Modified It 5% General Questions: New Races/Cultures? Yes 53% No 5% Unsure 41% More Lost History? Yes 88% No 0% Unsure 12% Is it okay to discuss homemade material on the list? Yes 88% No 0% Unsure 0% Don't Care 12% Well, that's how our opinions panned out under my analysis. I could draw some lengthy conclusions here, but I won't. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:45:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #144 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 415f23983d455a45a152596926cd9959 I think the large numbers of people who do not know of the material mentioned either means they were not members when the material was first presented, or the material itself was simply not readily available (for example, I first shared the Varellyan Timeline about a year ago, and the Y'hog timeline had never been posted to the list - newer members might not have had the chance to have a look at them). Likewise, there appears to be some tendencies in similar themed material - for exmaple, those who used the Carnifex Tyranny in their campaigns were also likely to use the Carnifex of Y'hog timeline as well, since the two are related. In general, though, people are fairly evenly divided in terms of whether or not they use materials, or whether they do not know about them. One interesting result was the common desire to see more lost history. I think this is where some people might be interested in casting their skills - since there are inconsistencies in a lot of materials, as well as a lot of "blank spots" that might be filled by an ambitious list member. In my next post I will share the URL for each topic in the survey. Again, I thank everyone who participated in the survey. :) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:32:07 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - URLs Hello all, As promised, I will share with you the URLs that you can use to find the info mentioned in the survey: The first batch can be found at Shawn Stanley's site. I will present the main part of the URL first - you just need to add the individual filename after this address: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ So here we go! Darine gypsies.html (general info - ideas, concepts, discussion) darine.html (more organized info) Ungolwaith pcungol.html (rules for creating ungolwaith PCs) unglwath.html (general stats for ungolwaith) sandfolk.html (describes the land of the ungolwaith) Kargoyles kargoyle.html (the updated info on this class/race) Kaarjala kaarjala.html (the history and PWA-style description of the land) Varellya varellya.html (the complete timeline) Undersea undersea.html (the updated file) Hyboria hybtime.html (the complete timeline) ******************************************************************** Carnifex Tyranny Okay, the next bit concerns the Carnifex Tyranny, go to Shawn's page at the above URL, then go to geog.html, scroll down to Skothar, and click on the great history of the Ages of Blackmoor - the info is contained therein. Or you can go to: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2304/ageblack.html ********************************************************************** MOrient All the net info I've seen can be found at: http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~jduncan2/morient.html *********************************************************************** Carnifex of Y'hog timeline The most updated version is at Marco Dalmonte's page, at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/yhog.html ************************************************************************ Lhomarrians and Selhomarr There are several places where you can find info on this. You can get the rules for Lhomarrian PCs and a .zip version of the Gazetteer I wrote at: http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~mqualizz/mystara All the info is on that page. Or, you can go to Marco's index at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/index.html And you will see the file on Lhomarrian PCs (pclhom.html) and a cool HTML version of the gaz! Or, you can go to Shawn's site, go to geog.html, scroll down to Suridal, and all the info on Selhomarr is there. Be warned that some of the data has been updated since that material was posted there, though. ************************************************************************ Well, I hope that what I've written here is helpful, and that you will check out some of the neat stuff that has been written by the list! TTFN Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:31:47 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >You should reread your previous posts. You seem very angry. You've been I am somewhat grumpy. I have been very angry in my life--at those times, I would not have been able to use a keyboard as anything other than an ineffective bludgeoning instrument. You need to get out more and get over your fear of self-expression. See, I can engage in nonsensical pop analysis, too. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:48 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery << <> yeah, i doubt that for some reason..... >> Why not? When his state doesn't perceive it as evil and his immortal patron doesn't perceive it as evil and it is backe by the laws there's no reason to keep no slaves. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:58:00 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Period of Preference >Actually, I believe it was TSRs desire to remove many of the characteristics of Mystara. They saw the conversion to AD&D as the proper time. From what I've seen, the technological history was to be removed and the Hollow World was to become a myth. It may have been interesting how they would have incorporated other Gazatteers and 10 to 1 one that the Shadow Elves would have become white drow. That would truly have been a shame. Drow are horrible - shadowelves rule. It doesn't get any plainer than that. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:49 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] << Now, the D&D rules imply that an Avenger is likely to be good, since he gets the same protective powers vs. Evil as does a Paladin. A good Avenger would go around righting wrongs regardless of the law. >> I want to remind you, that "Evil" is perceived as something absolutely personal, at least in this case. This ability works for an evil paladin or avenger, too. This might be the explanation: "Good" and "Evil" is always "We" and "Others". Only we players with our god-like sight define some people as good and others as evil in a distinct way as we are all "good". Or is there an evil guy in our midth? Only a few thoughts... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 14:20:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Preferred Mystara Country Thorf said: >Unfortunately, all of my players refuse to play halflings because they view them as being too disadvantaged statistically. :-( I've been toying with ways to beef halflings up a bit. I don't like the idea if turning them into thieves, but it seems reasonable IMO to give them Move Silently and Hide in Shadows abilities equal to a thief, perhaps with +20% when used outdoors. These abilities would replace the original halfling "hiding" ability. Another idea is like from old Basic D&D is letting them use any weapons except longbows and two-handed weapons, since this makes them much more effective fighters. Other ideas? Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:28:05 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Power to the little people! At 02:20 PM 3/4/98 PST, you wrote: >I've been toying with ways to beef halflings up a bit. I don't like the idea if turning them into thieves, but it seems reasonable IMO to give them Move Silently and Hide in Shadows abilities equal to a thief, perhaps with +20% when used outdoors. These abilities would replace the original halfling "hiding" ability. Another idea is like from old Basic D&D is letting them use any weapons except longbows and two-handed weapons, since this makes them much more effective fighters. Other ideas? The Five Shires Gazetteer has a few ideas, including the 'denial' ability, and Halfling Masters (kinda like druids). The RC has the option of unlimited level advancement, also. Personally, I would suggest giving halflings an AC bonus due to their size; it's a lot easier to hit someone who's six feet tall than it is to hit someone half that size. I agree with the idea of giving them stealth abilities in the outdoors. I would suggest that some weapons would be two-handed in the hands of halflings; longswords, hand axes (consider them to be halfling battleaxes), javelins (spear). Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:36:22 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu pontificated: >Religion has traditionally been a central feature of life in all pre-industrial human societies. I see no reason why it should be otherwise in pre-industrial fictional societies. It should be noted that while religion is important in oriental nations, its place in everyday life is quite different from the western societies. >I also consider the hard and fast separation of "mage" vs. "cleric" to be fairly dim-witted, also something that is purely 20th-century. Although D&D is based on historical periods, it doesn't means it have to copy everything. No one know how magic works, especially in a fantasy world. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:42:21 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >>They didn´t have the technology, and they were not familiar with many of the ideologies which have a great impact on our ways of thinking. This is obvious ofcourse, but its effects are easy to forget. >The flip-side of that coin is that slavery can be seen as slowing or even halting technological development. The book "Technology in the Ancient World" discusses this to some extent. While amazingly advanced prototypes were designed and built in the ancient world, they never caught on as a general technology. The author puts forth the thesis that one reason was the wide availability of slave labor without any demand for product greater than the slaves could produce. Interesting. This could easily apply to Thyatis. I dont think it would set back their military technology much, but agricultural inventions and the like might suffer greatly from it. Could Thyatis for any reason want to change to say a feudal system? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #144 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:05:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #145 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 40fb2445a5ca36f4190c5bf0254ee775 mystara-digest Thursday, March 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 145 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types [MYSTARA] - Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers [MYSTARA] - Magic [was Re: Avengers] [MYSTARA] - Spell of Preservation ? Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Hin Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Please Identify Quotes! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:44:05 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types bjm10@cornell.edu pontificated: >Quite true, as Chinese is often held up as one of the most extreme isolating languages in the world. Do you mean isolating as it is different from other languages or that each sementic unit can't be altered by prefix and suffix? - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:48:14 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Eternal life and Immortality On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >Yes. They are very similar to Egyptian gods. Actually if you look into the rulers of Ancient Egypt some sources will mention the names of Gods as early kings. The mythological stories always have the future Gods living as Not only this, but every Pharoah became Osiris upon his death and ascension. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:34:48 -0600 From: "Cecil Cosman" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points >Does anyone use a system other than hit points to determine injuries in Mystara? >Thorf. I found/have this c++ program I'm working with. It figures out damage based on weapon type. I'm trying to incorporate how well a target is hit. Say if you need a 12 to hit the guy and you have a 18 you'd have a 6 bonus to the damage the program figures out. This takes into account that it's possible to be injured as well as damaged, broken arms, legs, severed stuff. I just haven't figured out a way to decide damage amounts. ie a numeric loss to the hit points in addition to any possible serious injury. Right now it only tells a simple damage limit and a location. like minor damage right leg or whatever. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:45:49 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >like might suffer greatly from it. Could Thyatis for any reason want to change to say a feudal system? If the Latifundal system works (large farms manned by slave labor) for Thyatis, I would say not. The feudal system was a stop-gap measure hit upon during times of crisis and lack of good central government. When one could no longer rely upon the local commander to get his Legion in front of the barbarians, and when one could no longer rely upon the governor to get more Legions to a particularly troublesome area, one had to make whatever arrangements one could with the local tough guy and his pet thugs. Those arrangements are generally known as "feudalism". The tough guy and his thugs are generally known as a "Lord" and his "knights". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:46:21 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Language types On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Do you mean isolating as it is different from other languages or that each sementic unit can't be altered by prefix and suffix? "Isolating" is a term from the science of linguistics. It means the latter. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 03:16:32 -0600 From: Terari Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Lorenzo wrote: >Does anybody knows of a site that legally publishes these maps (also partially) ?? I don't believe such maps are available from the TSR site release of the Shadow Elves Gazatteer (correct me if I'm wrong someone) but you could check http://www.tsr.com. Maybe someone has some hand (computer) drawn ones to help you. - -- Terari terari@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2336/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:08:00 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation >>In a message dated 98-02-27 12:23:21 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >>>Ok I've got it! There was a great battle going on between the Immortals at >>>the time. The losers were the Thonian pantheon. The three Blackmoorian Immortals you mentioned were not really Thonian and have kept their mouthes >>>shut...possibly fearing reprisals...(or possibly in Khoronus' case just a little senility) >>Khoronus wasn't senile -- It was meant to be humor. I was referring to his forgetfullness. He is often portrayed as being a little bit distracted. You would be too though if you had to keep track of time like he does... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:40:00 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-04 15:51:50 EST, you write: << On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 Alex295 wrote: YYes I agree. The best measure as to what a Paladin sees as lawful is within the Immortal he fights for. Though most Immortals have no stated veiw on the matter of slavery, a good idea can be reached by looking at the Immortal. A follower must be in tune with much of what the Immortal believes in. A Cleric >and Paladin must believe in it even more so. Hence devine law would sway to hold more favor than national law. However, divine law may not necessarily be >what we see today as morally lawful. Which is absurd to try to impose on a setting not based on todays morales. That depends entirely on how your campaign is run. For instance, most people regard the murder of so-called "monsters" in their campaigns as perfectly lawful (which is somewhat fitting to the time-period Mystara is based on, given the addition of "monsters"). Others will apply the modern morals and say that all murder is wrong - which is fine, because it fits too. "Good" and "evil" are not really defined in any detail in the official Mystara, so they can easily be "set" by individual groups and DMs within their own campaigns. It's the same for Paladins and Avengers - whatever works best within your campaign is what you should use. If you want Paladins to be ultra- lawful with no regard for "good" and "evil", that's fine. On the other hand if you prefer to have them specialised for certain Immortals, that is a lawful Immortal will have Paladins and so on, and two groups of Paladins following different Immortals can have different beliefs, that's fine too. And if you want them to stick steadfastly to "good" and "evil" lines, that also works. Let's face it, the D&D alignment system is just not well-defined enough or consistent enough to argue out which way is best. The AD&D alignment system has its problems too, as we have seen from people disagreeing over exactly what is meant by all the different terms. What I'm really saying is that searching for a description of good/evil or law/chaos that everyone accepts is not going to work, because there is too much inconsistency in the original material. And getting everyone to agree with your proposal for a standard is both irrelevant and a waste of time, because at the end of the day people will still do things the way it works best for themselves. Thorf. >> I shall not comment upon this anymore. Not that I am conceding anything. It is just that this is getting redundant. My suggestion is to do what works best in your campaign and your gaming group. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:20:17 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Classical & Rennaisance (was materialism) >>In a message dated 98-02-27 02:25:14 EST, ats@acm.org writes: >>>Ah, but magical defenses.... protection from normal missiles, anyone? IIII'll sit around and mass produce amulets of such just to stop guns from having any effect. I'm sure alphatia would have no problems with that.... >>But that is creating a magic item -- and magic items are too expensive to be mass produced. Alphatia is probably the only nation with the resources to even consider such a project -- and even they would have difficulty doing so by the time mass production of firearms becomes practical. This suggestion of Alphatia as a kind of barrier against the development of gunpowder has reminded me of a future plot that I plan on working with. Another DM in my group runs a FR campaign in which several things exist that obviously don't in Mystara (ie; drow, illithid, psionic ability). So I get asked from time to time by players whether or not I will ever include these things. I am a strict believer in a DM's skill of evasion being of utmost importance to supplying the campaign with mystery. It is consequently rare that I answer such questions except to say "your character has never heard of this race/ability". As a sidenote, it is sometimes amusing for the players to be expecting drow and the "normal" underdark creatures to be beneath the earth. It can be troublesome too though as the heroes are automatically hostile toward Shadowelves and then have trouble understanding why they are in the wrong...but that is a discussion for a different thread. Anyway, my current theory is that Alphatia is "holding back" psionics and those creatures who would use such abilities. I consider it well known outside of the Mystaran multiverse (by those who WOULD know) that there are those who take steps against psionic intrusion. The extreme magical might of Alphatia is enough to deter such invaders. Also this is another front that Alphatia has, to help explain why they are merely the largest empire in the world and not overlords of the world... One might suggest that the Immortals instead prevent psionics in Mystara. This is fine but making it Alphatia gives me a future time when I can introduce psionics. The way that I am toying with in my nasty little brain is: 1) Some sort of sentient psionic creature arrives on Mystara. 2) They bring many friends. 3) They systematically start conquering the world. 4) Longtime countries begin to fall. People are largely helpless against the "new power". 5) Seeds that I have planted (for instance having one of the heroes produce a kid by an offworlder) allow the future heroes to play a pivotal role. Like I said, this is a long time away and just the first few ramblings from my brain. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:38:59 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >>like might suffer greatly from it. Could Thyatis for any reason want to change to say a feudal system? >If the Latifundal system works (large farms manned by slave labor) for Thyatis, I would say not. The feudal system was a stop-gap measure hit upon during times of crisis and lack of good central government. When one could no longer rely upon the local commander to get his Legion in front of the barbarians, and when one could no longer rely upon the governor to get more Legions to a particularly troublesome area, one had to make whatever arrangements one could with the local tough guy and his pet thugs. >Those arrangements are generally known as "feudalism". The tough guy and his thugs are generally known as a "Lord" and his "knights". Hmm. I wonder how the Thyatian system could evolve. I assume that their administration is pretty good and that their military is among the most efficient in the known world. Thyatis is probably more advanced that the Roman Empire was, due to inventions like the stirrup. Possibly even the printing press. Ofcourse they have a major problem of corruption. Could they make a direct leap from their current level to industrial level, thus getting rid of slavery or is there another option. (other than a breakdown ala Real World) Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 03:13:45 -0600 From: Terari Subject: [MYSTARA] - Magic [was Re: Avengers] Shin Chyang Yu wrote: Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:05:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #145 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 40fb2445a5ca36f4190c5bf0254ee775 >bjm10@cornell.edu pontificated: >>I also consider the hard and fast separation of "mage" vs. "cleric" to be fairly dim-witted, also something that is purely 20th-century. >Although D&D is based on historical periods, it doesn't means it have to copy everything. No one know how magic works, especially in a fantasy world. I agree. Wizardry and clerical magic are completely separate forces. Wizardry magic promotes the individual and clerical magic promotes belief. You can't compare neither to real world since we don't have people that go around preforming such feats. - -- Terari terari@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2336/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 19:40:54 +0100 From: Lorenzo Subject: [MYSTARA] - Spell of Preservation ? I beg pardon for my ignorance on the matter, but can anyone explain me what's this "Spell of Preservation" which I hear very much of ?? Thanks *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 19:43:22 +0100 From: Lorenzo Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Galwylin wrote: >Inconu wrote: >>If a paladin had a strength of 12 (minimum class allow), and got struck by a shadow or simalar stength-draining creature, would she lose her special abilities and be treated as a normal fighter? >>Also, if a fighter had a strength of 9 (minimum class allow), and fell under the same scenario.....what would be the consequences? >Both those requirements are only for character creation. Once the character begins adventuring, he is no longer bound by those rules. Fighters never lose their class and the only way of paladins losing class is by losing her lawful good alignment. What you basically end up with is a weak paladin but still a paladin. I agree with Galwylin, obviously. Furthermore, it must be said that minimum requirements are only a way to determine if the child character had the opportunity to follow that kind of education and training. You should read some DragonLance novels. I think that Inconu's next question was much more interesting: >True......if mages lose too much Int...can they still comprehend how to cast spells? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 19:43:47 +0100 From: Lorenzo Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Daly wrote: >the rules are there as a beginning place. The importance during game should be more heavy toward roleplaying. HOLY WORDS !!! All my DMing is based upon that :-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 19:43:32 +0100 From: Lorenzo Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >While a holy symbol itself doesnt have any power over the undead. It can be used for Turning the undead. Since a Vampire doesn´t automatically know whether a mortal can turn the undead, he has a reason to fear that from a mortal wearing a holy symbol. Many, especially less experienced vampires would fear holy symbols. More experienced vampires will probably be somewhat cautions untill they learn whether they have encountered a man of faith or not. I agree. And dont forget that much literature has been written on vampires and it tells us that no priests are required for vampires to be turned. Dracula himself feared Harker's necklace (that was a latin cross). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:01:54 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers One point in this was not discussed until now: Is there really anything like good or evil? Or another point of view: Which countries in the Real World are evil? China, Nigeria, Iraq? The inhabitants would protest loudly! Which countries are good? USA? Heck, some of their allies would doubt that! When there are no good or evil countries in the RW why should we assume that this concept exists on Mystara? Jamuga Khan "The Mighty Khan orders you to think!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:01:56 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << Do you suggest that murderers have the right to kill others? What about their victims' rights then? IMO murderers, by violating others' rights to live, have automatically forfeited their own right to be free (or even to live). >> I am against the death penalty and could perceive all fans of it as evil. Think about it. << > Who is to say that a Paladin must be a democrat? He isn't an autocrator either. >> May be, may be not. Don't forget, a paladin is a part of his society and he must follow the laws of state, church and his patron's. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:01:51 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] << Was there ever documentation that stated whether or not Avengers could be good, neutral, evil????? >> But there was never said that thy have to be evil. I'm playing a chaotic neutral fighter (one rule we use from AD&D) and he came into a foreign country where he probably wouldn't become a knight or ruler. I decided that my fighter would seek immortal help to become a avenger. A friend of mine is playing a chaotic neutral avenger too. This avenger even has the wisdom to cast spells. My experience is that playing an avenger is very interesting. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:01:57 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << > So, i was talking about AD&D Paladins obviously..... So what? I was quite OBVIOUSLY talking about Avengers in the threat that you responded to. So it is YOU who needs to keep track of things. >> BTW, there was very much discussions about paladins under this thread. But now we return to the avengers. Really fascinating are these tides of E-Mail threads on MLs. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 19:44:55 +0100 From: Lorenzo Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hin "Halfling" was translated in Italian as "Halfling". No Gazeteer has been published yet in Italian that uses the word "Hin". I know that some Italians are members of this list. How do you call "Hin" in italian ?? I've been suffering very much trying to translate that. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:35:12 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers >Is there really anything like good or evil? Is anything truly good or truly evil? I doubt it. Everyone has their flaws, no matter how good their intentions are. Name anyone people generally classify as a very good person (ex. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, Jimmy Carter, Jane Addams) and I'm sure someone will find flaws with their personality and their actions - heck, they all found problems with themselves. On the same front, I'm sure even "truly evil" people have redeeming features. Jesse Helms has his good points even. But do people tend to good/evil (or a better axis, selfless-selfish) when you categorize them? Do nations? >When there are no good or evil countries in the RW why should we assume that this concept exists on Mystara? There are countries more oriented to what we call 'good' then other countries. I doubt many people would consider Pinochet's Chile to be a good country. Most Cubans (and most outsiders with any knowledge of the situation) probably see Fidel's Cuba as good when compared to Batista's Cuba, the US-controlled Cuba of 1898-1902 or the Spanish colony of Cuba. So, I don't think there's a problem with making some countries more 'evil' than another. There are some Mystaran countries that couldn't care less about their citizens and some countries that see all outsiders (or all clerics or all surface-elves,etc) as evil. On the other hand, there are also more accepting Mystaran countries and Mystaran nations that do seek to meet the needs of citizens. So, no, there are no totally good nations or totally evil nations, but they can be compared in some measures that judge how 'good' or 'evil' they are. And they of course view themselves in such lights. Just as most Ameridians probably hated their Aztec neighbors, most Schattenalfen can be expected to see the Aztec as evil. Just as the US and Canada get along for the most part, so do the Traldar and Milenians. Libra (Sept. 23-Oct. 23) Major achievements, new friends and a previously unexplored way to make a lot of money will come to alot of people today, but unfortunately you aren't one of them. Consider not getting out of bed today - from "A Realist's Horoscope" by Andy Rooney *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:41:25 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers >When there are no good or evil countries in the RW why should we assume that this concept exists on Mystara? I don't believe anyone ever suggested anything about good or evil countries in Mystara. The point was whether certain practices were evil and whether a paladin would stand for them (being both lawful and good). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:40:08 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >It should be noted that while religion is important in oriental nations, its place in everyday life is quite different from the western societies. I was speaking of pre-industrial societies. In "Western" societies, religion was extremely important up until the Industrial Revolution. What do you think the 30-years' War was fought over? What do you think the "Crusades" were? In the Elizabethan era of England, the parish was not only the fundamental unit of the Church, it was the fundamental unit of government. What do you base your contention regarding "Western" societies upon? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:36:22 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 11:42 PM 3/3/98 EST, you wrote: >I am not sure that the Ylari would meet either definition -- the Immortals that they revere include at a minimum Protius and Al-Kalim -- and there may well be others. But the problem is that the real world culture they are based on is strongly montheistic -- and carrying that attitude over to their fantasy counterparts proved a bit too tricky, it would seem. Actually, I scoured the Ylaruam Gazetteer, but I couldn't find any indication that they worshipped any specific immortal, just the teachings of Al-Kalim. I do find it odd that a desert people would worship the Old Man of the Sea... Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:54:52 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Please Identify Quotes! In a message dated 98-03-04 18:00:55 EST, you write: << Mystarans: I'm trying to follow several of the current threads and I'm starting to lose track of who said what in many cases. This is exasperated by the fact that several people are not including quote identification information. [rest snipped because the first paragraph put it all in perspective] Jenni >> I have to agree with Jenni with this one. I am guilty of omitting the author's name, especially if the copied and pasted message contains several responses. In fact, I have started to respond to my own responses a time or two. To agree of course :-) Typical examples of this is in the past few threads concerning slavery and firearms. Boy, has it got confusing. Several times I thought posters were responding to themselves. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #145 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:05:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #146 Reply-To: mystara@MPGN.COM X-UIDL: 0a1fcd4dbe48ed80412ae7d0cb903286 mystara-digest Thursday, March 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 146 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Power to the little people! [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Hin Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Hin Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Spell of Preservation ? Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:05:59 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-04 15:53:08 EST, you write: >What kind of bullet? What kind of firearm? What period of firearm? You're being *EXTREMELY* broad in your generalization.>> >> >>I believe only one firearm has been introduced to D&D. It was the arquebus.<> Daly IIRC the guns in Savage Coast are called wheel locks. Whether they are true wheel locks are more probably flint locks is in debate. I would have to look as I do not play RS/SC despite having both boxes. Though I do remeber one SC fan from around here that took umbrage at my calling it a flintlock. Also IIRC there is a creature in the Mystaran MC that uses arquebuses. Likewise I'd have to look. But IIRC the creature illustrated holds no arquebus. Instead he holds a flint or matchlock pistol. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:04:20 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Lorenzo wrote: >Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >>While a holy symbol itself doesnt have any power over the undead. It can be used for Turning the undead. Since a Vampire doesn´t automatically know whether a mortal can turn the undead, he has a reason to fear that from a mortal wearing a holy symbol. Many, especially less experienced vampires would fear holy symbols. More experienced vampires will probably be somewhat cautions untill they learn whether they have encountered a man of faith or not. >I agree. >And dont forget that much literature has been written on vampires and it tells us that no priests are required for vampires to be turned. Dracula himself feared Harker's necklace (that was a latin cross). Ofcourse, in Ann Rice's world and in Vampire, fear of Holy Symbols is just psychological. If you want really powerful vampires... Anyway, dont you fint it silly that Vamps drain energy instead of sucking blood? Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:30:49 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] >>On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>>What source are you counting as the first appearance of the mind flayer? >>Either Greyhawk or Blackmoor (supplements to the original game, back when TSR was still called "Tactical Studies Rules"). >>>But in the earliest D&D rulebooks the Law/Chaos and Good/Evil axes were always present. To my knowledge it was the Orange box edition (with the >>No they weren't. In the earliest D&D rulebooks, the only axis was Law/Chaos. It was explained in the book "Men and Magic". I just checked the old Blackmoor supplement and it does not even mention alignment. The old blue box basic set (with the dragon on the cover and the backs of a mage and a warrior) has the AD&D alignment system. In the orange box (published after the blue box) they either started the "3 alignment" system or they went back to it. I have not yet located your source... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 04:08:06 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Inconu wrote: << Does anyone use a system other than hit points to determine injuries in Mystara? >> >I've tried a few...but nothing that stuck. It's usually too difficult >or too time consuming, but I'd love to hear anyone else that may have >some ideas on this. I use an ad-libbed method. If during a battle, let's say, an Ogre hits one of the PCs on the head with a club for 15 HP of damage. I just say, "The ogre seems to have known the magic-user you just killed and looks very pissed-off. He raises his club, mumbles something that you can tell bodes bad for you, runs at you like a train, and bears his club down on the side of your head. You stumble back taking 14 points of damage. You also start to hear a loud ringing in you ear." I might give the PC a -1 to attack roles or some other penalty because of the hearing problem. After the fight I'll probably say that the PC has a terrible headache. I was going to make a table but said WHY! It's more fun for me and my players if I just give them a wound here and there to add some element to the game. Comments?! BOB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 03:09:07 -0600 From: Terari Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Power to the little people! Glen Sprigg wrote: >The Five Shires Gazetteer has a few ideas, including the 'denial' ability, and Halfling Masters (kinda like druids). The RC has the option of unlimited level advancement, also. I've always like that ability. It just adds that little difference I like in different settings instead of having demi-humans the same no matter where you encounter them. One question though... is this ability only available to halflings in the Five Shires or do you allow it to all Mystara halflings? I think the Gazatteer mentions it being only availabe in the Shires but I think it should be for all halflings. Comments? >Personally, I would suggest giving halflings an AC bonus due to their size; it's a lot easier to hit someone who's six feet tall than it is to hit someone half that size. I agree with the idea of giving them stealth abilities in the outdoors. Another suggestion I completely agree with though the bonus is lost fighting smaller foes. - -- Terari terari@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2336/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 04:04:42 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points >>True. but when fighters are of great level and have.....say 100 hp. >>He could be bare naked in the street and have 20 arrows shot into him and still have plenty of leftover hp. It just doesn't work out all the time IMO. -Inconu >Why doesn't this workout? This character has been hit with 20 arrows >this round. He's taking 20d6 (if flight arrows) or 20d8 damage if his enemies have only a basic proficiency. Average damage is 70 or 90 pts. This guy is going to be hurting. Even if he was only hit with 5 arrows the challenge is still there. This character has to fight more people than he can handle. Plus a 100hp fighter isn't too >common anyways. -CRIPTONITE Also think of it this way. I'm a fight who's been down in this dungeon for days. I've gotten use to all the little scraps, bumps, and what not. My body is used to the pain. Now, if I'm walking down the Nest in Specularum (or Mirros) feeling fine and suddenly get shot full of arrows, I'm going to be in a state of shock. My body is going to go nuts trying to deal with all of the pain at once. What I'm trying to say is that a large amount of hurting at one time is REALLY bad for the body and could be worse than a normal hit. AD&D has a rule like this where if someone sustains over 50 HP of damage in one attack (or is it one round of attck?) than a person could be in severe trauma or even die. It's really not that bad of a rule. Thoughts anyone? Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:54:15 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 12:36 AM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >bjm10@cornell.edu pontificated: >>Religion has traditionally been a central feature of life in all pre-industrial human societies. I see no reason why it should be otherwise in pre-industrial fictional societies. >It should be noted that while religion is important in oriental nations, its place in everyday life is quite different from the western societies. Can you explain how? >>I also consider the hard and fast separation of "mage" vs. "cleric" to be fairly dim-witted, also something that is purely 20th-century. You know, it occurs to me that this is not "purely 20th-century". If you are merely taking a cross section of European history from the Middle Ages to now then you are mostly correct. However, it occurs to me that the Apostles and Jesus were not considered to be practicing "mysticism" when they performed their miracles. There has always been a distinction between "holy power" and "witchcraft". If one goes through Shakespeare one will notice the same thing. You can hardly suggest the character in the "Tempest" when he is working his magic, is doing something on par with the miracles of the Apostles. Forgive the rambling please, I am having some trouble forming thoughts as there is a group of students outside that I am getting ready to pound... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:44 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >I just checked the old Blackmoor supplement and it does not even mention alignment. The old blue box basic set (with the dragon on the cover and the backs of a mage and a warrior) has the AD&D alignment system. Old? Old? Old? The Blue Box set is certainly not the original D&D rules. I am talking about the original rules, not some newfangled "Blue Box" set, in this case. Go check your "Collectors' Edition" D&D--the one that consists of three white booklets, 8.5" by 5.5", or the even earlier printing, in which the booklets had a parchment-like coloration to their color. The booklets were titled "Men and Magic", "Monsters and Treasure" (I think), and "The Wilderness Adventure". >In the orange box (published after the blue box) they either started the "3 alignment" system or they went back to it. I have not yet located your source... My source is the original game, published before any Jonny-come-lately "Blue Box". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:57:48 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hin On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Lorenzo wrote: >"Halfling" was translated in Italian as "Halfling". >No Gazeteer has been published yet in Italian that uses the word "Hin". >I know that some Italians are members of this list. How do you call "Hin" in italian ?? I've been suffering very much trying to translate that. Hin has no meaning in English AFAIK. So the best might be to use the same word. I've had the same problem translating it into norwegian, mainly because it sounds silly in that language. Some say it sounds silly in English too. I sometimes use Hobbit though. As could you though TSR cant because of the copyright stuff... Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:23:47 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers At 06:38 PM 3/5/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 bjm10@cornell.edu wrote: >>On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >>>like might suffer greatly from it. Could Thyatis for any reason want to change to say a feudal system? >>If the Latifundal system works (large farms manned by slave labor) for Thyatis, I would say not. The feudal system was a stop-gap measure hit upon during times of crisis and lack of good central government. When one could no longer rely upon the local commander to get his Legion in front of the barbarians, and when one could no longer rely upon the governor to get more Legions to a particularly troublesome area, one had to make whatever arrangements one could with the local tough guy and his pet thugs. >>Those arrangements are generally known as "feudalism". The tough guy and his thugs are generally known as a "Lord" and his "knights". >Hmm. I wonder how the Thyatian system could evolve. I assume that their administration is pretty good and that their military is among the most efficient in the known world. Thyatis is probably more advanced that the Roman Empire was, due to inventions like the stirrup. Possibly even the printing press. Ofcourse they have a major problem of corruption. Could they make a direct leap from their current level to industrial level, thus getting rid of slavery or is there another option. (other than a breakdown ala Real World) It depends. I am unaware of any historical government which started spending itself into debt and then recovered. Also the hedonistic lifestyle of many Thyatians and the removal of the "ancient enemy" are certainly enough to encourage increased apathy and stagnation. In short, I don't see any way short of revolution that the Thyatians can rid themselves of slavery. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:53:57 EST Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:05:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #146 Reply-To: mystara@MPGN.COM X-UIDL: 0a1fcd4dbe48ed80412ae7d0cb903286 From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario << << However, a paladin must have a minimum of 13 in Wisdom in order to cast spells. So the question can be legitimized to everyone's liking. >> True......if mages loose too much Int...can they still comprehend how to cast spells? -Inconu >> He who uses D&D may be happy! (No minimum attributes for humans) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:53:59 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points << Experienced characters can take more damaging hits than a lot of monsters can, without reducing their capabilities one iota. Why should a character who is more experienced be any harder to kill than one who is not experienced at all? Armour and skill should affect this, and perhaps also endurance/stamina, but not to such an extent as hit points give us. >> Experience, instinct and sheer luck is the answer. Paranoia may help, too. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:56:49 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >So what? I was quite OBVIOUSLY talking about Avengers in the thread that you responded to. So it is YOU who needs to keep track of things. >> >BTW, there was very much discussions about paladins under this thread. But now we return to the avengers. Really Paladins as contrasted to Avengers... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:16:17 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hin At 07:44 PM 3/4/96 +0100, you wrote: >"Halfling" was translated in Italian as "Halfling". >No Gazeteer has been published yet in Italian that uses the word "Hin". >I know that some Italians are members of this list. How do you call "Hin" in italian ?? I've been suffering very much trying to translate that. Hin is the Mystaran word for Halfling. Rather, halfling is considered the human term and Hin is considered the halfling's word for themselves *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:40:21 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers At 02:35 PM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Is there really anything like good or evil? >Is anything truly good or truly evil? Yes. I doubt it. Everyone has their >flaws, no matter how good their intentions are. You started out talking about "things" now you are talking about "people". Actions can be classified good or bad. >Jesse Helms has his good points And I am sure Jesse has a few bad points too. But do people >tend to good/evil (or a better axis, selfless-selfish) when you categorize them? Sure. Would anyone argue redeeming qualities about Jeffrey Dahmer (a cannibalistic serial killer)? Do nations? No. Nations cannot be classified as good or evil. It is people's actions that are good or bad. Hate the sin love the sinner. >>When there are no good or evil countries in the RW why should we assume that this concept exists on Mystara? Because it is a fantasy world. We can hold Hule up as the "Evil Empire" and fight against it and feel good about ourselves. They are an obvious evil. Much easier to hate than real life bad guys... >There are countries more oriented to what we call 'good' then other countries. I doubt many people would consider Pinochet's Chile to be a good country. Most Cubans (and most outsiders with any knowledge of the situation) probably see Fidel's Cuba as good when compared to Batista's Cuba, the US-controlled Cuba of 1898-1902 or the Spanish colony of Cuba. Then I wonder why the Cuban people wanted the US to help overthrow Castro? Why do so many people flee the country when given the chance. Yeah, Castro, a really great guy there... So, I don't think there's a problem with making some ccountries more 'evil' than another. Well, you had a good point about RW countries not being good or evil...at least I think that was your point...I suppose it depends on whether one wishes to run a socio/politically realistic campaign or a fantasy campaign. There are some Mystaran countries >that couldn't care less about their citizens and some countries that see all outsiders (or all clerics or all surface-elves,etc) as evil. On the other hand, there are also more accepting Mystaran countries and Mystaran nations that do seek to meet the needs of citizens. So, no, there are no totally good nations or totally evil nations, but they can be compared in some measures that judge how 'good' or 'evil' they are. Something that just occured to me...I can pick out several evil countries: Hule, Broken Lands, Ethengar, Shadowelf Territories, Heldann Protectorate, Denagoth. Now I understand that a couple of these depend on the individual campaign (stop frothing Jamuga!) but you get the picture. However I can not think of any "good" countries. All the rest are different shades of neutral. Interesting... And they of >course view themselves in such lights. Just as most Ameridians probably hated their Aztec neighbors, most Schattenalfen can be expected to see the Aztec as evil. Do you have anything to base the idea that the Amerindians hated the Aztecs (I mean besides the tendency to end up on a dinner plate!)? Just as the US and Canada get along for the most part, so ddo the Traldar and Milenians. Yeah, them Canadians qualify as only a little bit evil...(Just kidding Geoff, JAMM, and any others!) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:29:25 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spell of Preservation ? On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Lorenzo wrote: >I beg pardon for my ignorance on the matter, but can anyone explain me what's this >"Spell of Preservation" which I hear very much of ?? It is described in the Hollow World boxed set. It was a spell the immortals created to prevent the cultures of the Hollow Workd to destroy eachother. Or actually even to change. It prevents certain spells from working: Teleport, wish, ressurection etc. I dont have the details here right now. Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:38:42 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols to vamps Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >Ofcourse, in Ann Rice's world and in Vampire, fear of Holy Symbols is just psychological. If you want really powerful vampires... Anyway, dont you fint it silly that Vamps drain energy instead of sucking blood? I certainly do! Vampires in D&D are a completely different creature from legends, books and movie vamps we've seen. This sucking energy is something I've never liked. If the victim survives the attack (doesn't lose too much blood), I think that they should regain their strength over a period of time as their body replaces the lost blood. But maybe I missed the part it said that blood is the keeper of a character's level... BTW, I think Rice writes the defacto vampire that blends all the different sources of vampires very well. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:27:38 -0800 (PST) From: Diego Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Well met, On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: ><< Now, the D&D rules imply that >an Avenger is likely to be good, since he gets the same protective powers vs. Evil as does a Paladin. A good Avenger would go around righting wrongs regardless of the law. >> >I want to remind you, that "Evil" is perceived as something absolutely personal, at least in this case. >This might be the explanation: "Good" and "Evil" is always "We" and "Others". Only we players with our god-like sight define some people as good and others as evil in a distinct way as we are all "good". Or is there an evil guy in our midth? This brings up a question that I have had to deal with in game, and could use some help on. There is a paladin and he sees such things as homosexual relations, durg users, and other things as evil because of the history that he drew up for his character (I have a very detailed campaign). How much does this factor into his ability to detect "evil" due to the ability. I mean is it only the churches view of "evil" that the paladinic ability detects for or is it also personal views? If this has already been discussed then could some one give me a synopsis of what the list thought, I have had to delete some mail due to classes and my mailbox being too full. Thanks! Diego *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:47:53 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] At 04:00 PM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>I just checked the old Blackmoor supplement and it does not even mention alignment. The old blue box basic set (with the dragon on the cover and the backs of a mage and a warrior) has the AD&D alignment system. >Old? Old? Old? The Blue Box set is certainly not the original D&D rules. I am talking about the original rules, not some newfangled "Blue Box" set, in this case. Go check your "Collectors' Edition" D&D--the one that consists of three white booklets, 8.5" by 5.5", or the even earlier printing, in which the booklets had a parchment-like coloration to their color. The booklets were titled "Men and Magic", "Monsters and Treasure" (I think), and "The Wilderness Adventure". Well what is the date on your rules? 1975 on the Blackmoor supplement. It is the 2nd in a series including "Eldritch Wizardry" and "Greyhawk". I am unfortunate in that I do not have the white box edition. However, like I said before, the Blackmoor supplement has no mention of alignment at all. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:55:27 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= wrote: >printing press. Ofcourse they have a major problem of corruption. Could they make a direct leap from their current level to industrial level, thus getting rid of slavery or is there another option. (other than a breakdown ala Real World) First, we must realize that feudalism was not an advance, even though it came after the Roman latifundal system. Feudalism was a stop-gap measure to keep everything from collapsing altogether. By the time anybody tried to make things more efficient, "tradition" had enshrined feudal practices. If you can keep control over your slave population, and if your slave population is sufficiently large, latifundal systems can do quite a bit of production. Slave-labor can be used for industrial production, as well. If you can, get some good histories of Russian attempts at industrialization in the 1800s--it explains why they were willing to embrace the Bolsheviks, at least to some extent. However, compared to wage labor, slave labor is less efficient. If you maltreat your slaves, you will get inferior work, a lot of malingering, and poor product. If you treat your slaves well, you are saddled with the costs of caring for somebody 24 hours a day, cradle to grave. As a northern businessman supposedly said to a southerner in the Antebellum days: "You see, our system is far more cost-effective. If one of my workers falls ill or is injured, I can just fire him. You would have to take care of one of your injured slaves even if he was non-productive. Furthermore, you have to see to their housing, food, and clothing, whereas I can simply pay him a wage and whether he freezes or starves be damned, so long as I get the work out of him." Mind you, the practices of industrialists in the 19th century were about this callous. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:39:35 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers bjm10@cornell.edu pontificated: >On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: IIIt should be noted that while religion is important in oriental nations, its place in everyday life is quite different from the western societies. >I was speaking of pre-industrial societies. In "Western" societies, religion was extremely important up until the Industrial Revolution. What do you think the 30-years' War was fought over? What do you think the "Crusades" were? In the Elizabethan era of England, the parish was not only the fundamental unit of the Church, it was the fundamental unit of government. >What do you base your contention regarding "Western" societies upon? Umm, I didn't say anything about religion in western societies. I was saying religion is quite different in oriental society, which I based on my own knowledge of China. As I can't remember China fought any major war because of religion, nor were government controlled by any single religion for long period of time. Where in my post made you think I was talking about western societies? (by which I meanly meant Europe and Near East). - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #146 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:24:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #147 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: e5580bcca2a0a6578f4c062cfc25334f mystara-digest Thursday, March 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 147 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS [MYSTARA] - Speration of Mages and Priests... Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario [MYSTARA] - Polytheism in xD&D [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] [MYSTARA] - MML Archive was (Re: URLs) [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Threads That Need to Die... Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers [MYSTARA] - Get a 12 Page Thyatian Calender in PDF Format For Free! (Makes a Good Birdcage Liner) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:29:10 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points brunciak@erols.com wrote: >Also think of it this way. I'm a fight who's been down in this dungeon for days. I've gotten use to all the little scraps, bumps, and what not. My body is used to the pain. Now, if I'm walking down the Nest in Specularum (or Mirros) feeling fine and suddenly get shot full of arrows, I'm going to be in a state of shock. My body is going to go nuts trying to deal with all of the pain at once. What I'm trying to say is that a large amount of hurting at one time is REALLY bad for the body and could be worse than a normal hit. AD&D has a rule like this where if someone sustains over 50 HP of damage in one attack (or is it one round of attck?) than a person could be in severe trauma or even die. It's really not that bad of a rule. Thoughts anyone? That's not a bad rule. Although, I think it would be better to increase the damage of weapons. There's no wonder there are so many power-gamers since the rules are geared to that with hit points and levels. BTW, if we consider ourselves 0-level characters, are there any higher level folks in the RW? Just a thought... - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:24:48 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery At 01:27 PM 3/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >Well met, >On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >><< Now, the D&D rules imply that >>an Avenger is likely to be good, since he gets the same protective powers vs. Evil as does a Paladin. A good Avenger would go around righting wrongs regardless of the law. >> >>I want to remind you, that "Evil" is perceived as something absolutely personal, at least in this case. >>This might be the explanation: "Good" and "Evil" is always "We" and "Others". Only we players with our god-like sight define some people as good and others as evil in a distinct way as we are all "good". Or is there an evil guy in our midth? >This brings up a question that I have had to deal with in game, and could use some help on. There is a paladin and he sees such things as homosexual relations, durg users, and other things as evil because of the history that he drew up for his character (I have a very detailed campaign). How much does this factor into his ability to detect "evil" due to the ability. If you consider evil to be defined by action, as opposed to having some sort of vague nebulous "pure evil" entity idea, then Detect Evil can be seen as a sort of "detect intention". In other words, I suppose if the paladin wanted to stand outside a homosexual's house and cast the spell while the ACT was being performed (I can't even believe I am discussing this!) then the spell might detect it. However, in the common dungeon situation this is pretty darn unlikely and just simply never needs come up... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 98 15:16:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Jamuga Khan wrote: >Someone else wrote: ><< Experienced characters can take more damaging hits than a lot of mmonsters can, without reducing their capabilities one iota. Why should a character who is more experienced be any harder to kill than one who is not experienced at all? Armour and skill should affect this, and perhaps also endurance/stamina, but not to such an extent as hit points give us. >> >Experience, instinct and sheer luck is the answer. Paranoia may help, too. In the last game I DMed, I treated hit points as your ability to avoid getting hit. So when a orc "hit" a character with a sword for 6 points of damage, I'd say something like "You barely manage to parry a vicious swing from the orc -- take 6 points." Sometimes I'd describe a hit as a bruise or scratch, but often just a good defense. When a character *missed*, I attributed it to armor. For example, the orc swung a sword and missed: "The orc slices across your chest, but the sword glances harmlessly off your armor." When a character dropped to zero hit points, it is because a blow got past their armor and defenses. Negative hit points means you're badly wounded; at a certain cutoff (I used -CON), you are dead. I also required a CON roll to stay conscious once hp were negative. It was pretty easy to heal normal hp simply by resting and engaging in recreation, but once they went negative, it took a long time to recover. The players really liked this system, as it was much easier for their first level characters to stay alive. They'd fight like dogs until hp reached zero and they started leaking blood, and then they'd suddenly get scared and start sueing for mercy... One nice feature of this system is that a character can't take half a dozen arrows or daggers before falling: he manages to avoid a rain of arrows or a flurry of strikes, but finally a single shot gets past his defenses and takes him down. (If you are allowing hp to go to -CON, it might take two or three strikes to be fatal, but that's reasonable.) I didn't do anything special for backstabbing or falling, since it never came up. However, I'd apply these against hit points as usual. If a backstab fails to kill, it is because the victim reacted at the last moment; if a fall fails to kill, they must have landed just right. If a character purposely jumped off a cliff, I might require a saving throw vs. Death instead of computing damage -- that way they'll either survive unharmed or die, but it's always a risk. On any fall of ten feet or more a Save is a good idea anyway, since they could break a bone or lose consciousness. Anyway, this worked very well for me. It made things seem much more realistic, and provided a logical basis for making on-the-fly decisions about the effects of damage. I will probably use this model from now on. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:19:40 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery Diego wrote: >This brings up a question that I have had to deal with in game, and could use some help on. There is a paladin and he sees such things as homosexual relations, durg users, and other things as evil because of the history that he drew up for his character (I have a very detailed campaign). How much does this factor into his ability to detect "evil" due to the ability. I mean is it only the churches view of "evil" that the paladinic ability detects for or is it also personal views? If this has already been discussed then could some one give me a synopsis of what the list thought, I have had to delete some mail due to classes and my mailbox being too full. Well, assuming the ability to detect evil is from the paladin's perspective of evil, then I would guess that character detects it in all his surroundings making it useless to him in finding the real evils of the people he encounters. This would lead him to narrow his personal definition of evil in order to make the ability productive. Personally, I don't think such things as homosexuality and drug use would register with detect evil. If the ability is from his prespective of evil then he most likely will be detecting failings soon and then it will be totally useless since he himself would then register to it. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:23:10 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points MichaelX Harvey wrote: >In the last game I DMed, I treated hit points as your ability to avoid getting hit. So when a orc "hit" a character with a sword for 6 points This sounds interesting and much easier to picture in the mind. I like this. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:30:40 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points << AD&D has a rule like this where if someone sustains over 50 HP of damage in one attack (or is it one round of attck?) than a person could be in severe trauma or even die. It's really not that bad of a rule. Thoughts anyone? >> yup, i think it was 50 hp, or loss of 50% of hp, and you must make a system shock check or the character dies.... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:37:09 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery << . How much does this factor into his ability to detect "evil" due to the ability. >> I believe it only comes into effect if something evil is occuring...or in someone's mind. So, if the Paladin thought homosexuality was evil....and some guy started looking at him in a certain way....the detect evil would work in this case. But just the fact of being homosexual shouldn't be picked up as evil. Only if an action or thought is taking place. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:15:47 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] At 05:03 PM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: ><< Now, the D&D rules imply that >an Avenger is likely to be good, since he gets the same protective powers vs. Evil as does a Paladin. A good Avenger would go around righting wrongs regardless of the law. >> >I want to remind you, that "Evil" is perceived as something absolutely personal, at least in this case. This ability works for an evil paladin or avenger, too. >This might be the explanation: "Good" and "Evil" is always "We" and "Others". Only we players with our god-like sight define some people as good and others as evil in a distinct way as we are all "good". Or is there an evil guy in our midth? >Only a few thoughts... There are many who would classify all of us as evil for daring to play a fantasy game... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:41:20 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Using GURPS =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= pontificated: >All in all the Mages will be different using the different systems. It al= l >depends how much these differences matter to you. True, but in Mystara, a high level mage should be insanely powerful. Even if it doesn't quite work the same way. I will check the unlimit mana rule to see what is it like. >How often are your PCs naked when they fight armies? ;P Well, maybe a bracer of defence and couple of rings of protaction. Why wear clothes when it doesn't provide AC :). - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:56:31 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Speration of Mages and Priests... bjm10@cornell.edu meandered fecklessly... >I also consider the hard and fast separation of "mage" vs. "cleric" to be >fairly dim-witted, also something that is purely 20th-century. Pre-industrial societies recognized licit and illicit wonder-workers. Licit ones might be formal priests or not, illicit ones were simply condemned as "witches" or whatever the local equivalent term would be. But in any case, all of them were seen as tapping into some supernatural power source, be it divine or demonic. There was no mechanical "this is magic-user magic", vs. "this is cleric magic". So what your saying here is that creating a system of magic whole cloth rather than taking it from real world examples is "dim-witted?" Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:34:27 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scenario In a message dated 98-03-04 11:52:08 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: >True......if mages loose too much Int...can they still comprehend how to cast >spells? Again it would depend on which rule set you are using: 1) D&D -- the Mage can still cast spells but suffers an XP penalty (-10% at Int 6-8, and -20% at Int 3-5, if I am not mistaken). 2) AD&D -- the Mage loses the ability to cast wizard spells as soon as Int drops below 9 (as there are no spellcasting statistics given below Int 9). For Priests reduced to low wisdom: 1) D&D -- the Cleric can still cast spells but suffers an XP penalty. 2) AD&D -- the Priest can still cast spells but has a significant chance of spell failure according to the reduced wisdom. For Paladins reduced to low wisdom: 1) D&D -- Wisdom of 13+ is required to cast Cleric spells -- the Paladin loses his spellcasting ability but retains all other special abilities. 2) AD&D -- same as Priest. While he does not gain bonus spells for high wisdom, spell failure would kick in when wisdom becomes low enough. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:55:56 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Polytheism in xD&D bjm10@cornell.edu meandered fecklessly... >So what? Throughout the history of TSR games, there has been no Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:24:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #147 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: e5580bcca2a0a6578f4c062cfc25334f >polytheistic model. Like, say, Thyatis... "Most Thyatians (excepting clerics) do not follow the teachings of any one Immortal; they learn about many of them. Most communities have temples dedicated to many different Immortals." Dawn of the Emporers Players Guide, pg. 12 In addition, the Forgotten Realms makes many references to the fact that the vast majority of people worship no one god to the exclusion of others, that most attend several different churches. Faiths & Avatars in particular drives home this point, discussing how who a person worships depends on their current activity. Someone wishing to make a long sea trip placates Umberlee, Godess of the Seas, for example. Are these not polytheistic systems? Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:50:49 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >>=?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= pontificated: >>How often are your PCs naked when they fight armies? ;P >Well, maybe a bracer of defence and couple of rings of protaction. Why wear clothes when it doesn't provide AC :). Has anyone decided to develop a Mystaran nudist colony yet? ;) Seriously though, the situation of PCs always having armor on is mundane. I'm not saying that PCs ALWAYS where armor, but why do most encounters tend to have the PCs fully armed and armored? Just once I'd like to see a PC surprised in the bath. Now THAT'S and encounter. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 21:07:14 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] At 08:50 PM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >>>=?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= pontificated: >>>How often are your PCs naked when they fight armies? ;P >>Well, maybe a bracer of defence and couple of rings of protaction. Why wear clothes when it doesn't provide AC :). >Has anyone decided to develop a Mystaran nudist colony yet? ;) >Seriously though, the situation of PCs always having armor on is mundane. I'm not saying that PCs ALWAYS where armor, but why do most encounters tend to have the PCs fully armed and armored? Just once I'd like to see a PC surprised in the bath. Now THAT'S and encounter. Funny...my DM arranges such things frequently... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:04:04 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] At 08:50 PM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >Has anyone decided to develop a Mystaran nudist colony yet? ;) >Seriously though, the situation of PCs always having armor on is mundane. I'm not saying that PCs ALWAYS where armor, but why do most encounters tend to have the PCs fully armed and armored? Just once I'd like to see a PC surprised in the bath. Now THAT'S and encounter. I've always wanted to play a hero that wears clothes with no armor. I think it just looks better than always wearing armor. I don't believe it was common practice to wear it unless you were going into battle. And wouldn't it be cumbersome in dank, smelling dungeons not to mention just walking through town or at a tavern? Maybe it adds to the AC but wouldn't it also cut the dexterity bonus down a little? I've no better system for protection (baring the ring and bracer protection) but it just seems like armor may protect someone from a blow but also makes it easier to be hit. _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:13:01 +1000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [MYSTARA] - MML Archive was (Re: URLs) Greetings All Just reiterating what Geoff wrote in his message. I felt I needed to do this as the results of the survey seemed to indicate that many people didn't know of the existance of many things which had previously come from the Mystara Mailing List. Firstly my site archives files from the Mystara Mailing List. It is the home for files which have been sent to the Mystara Mailing List which detail new things about Mystara. On it you should be able to find all such files which have been sent to the mailing list, if one isn't there please inform me personally and the situation will be rectified. Also on the site are files from the netMAGs that were compiled by Brant Guillory. These netMAGs are compilations of things posted someone about on AOL and so were not freely available to those outside that service. Most of these files have not been posted to the MML and include such things talked about in the survey as the articles on the Darine and the information on Kaarjala. Finally the site has things that people have personally sent to me that for one reason or another they have chosen not to post to the MML or any other forum. This catergory is limited to postings by Geoff Gander including an updated version of Selhomarrian Gazetter >Or, you can go to Shawn's site, go to geog.html, scroll down to Suridal, and all the info on Selhomarr is there. Be warned that some of the data has been updated since that material was posted there, though. and postings by Irving Galvez on the area where Blackmoor once stood. So, the idea of this post is to let people know that my homepage exists and what its purpose is - to archive things from the Mystara Mailing List so you don't have to go through buckets of old digests to find things. The files on the site are indexed according to geography, information on immortals, new adventures and campaign ideas etc etc (If anyone finds this confusing please tell me). What the site isn't. The site isn't the be all and end all of Mystaran sites. Other people have sites with their own material which they have chosen not to post to the Mystara Mailing List. [I just thought I'd point this out as I recall a post recently which mentioned that there was no one blanketing site for Mystaran material. My homepage is not such a site and is not intended to be.] This post might have sounded a little off topic but I hope that it will not be percieved as such. This post was intended to inform people of the information that was out and to preclude the need to continually repost material to the list to make sure that things remained fresh in peoples minds. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:53:19 -0500 From: brunciak@erols.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Galwylin wrote: >MichaelX Harvey wrote: >>In the last game I DMed, I treated hit points as your ability to avoid getting hit. So when a orc "hit" a character with a sword for 6 points >This sounds interesting and much easier to picture in the mind. I like this. Gary Gygax mentioned in one of the rulebooks that Hit Points was an abstract concept and that HP was a representation of luck, skill, physical health, and other attributes. The syste, given by MichaelX Harvey sounds great. However, as the HP goes down and gets to, oh, 10 or under, than does the person start to feel real pain and not just a weakening in the ability to prevent bodily harm? Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:43:35 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Paladins & Slavery At 07:37 PM 3/5/98 EST, you wrote: ><< . How much does this factor into his ability to detect "evil" due tto the ability. >> >I believe it only comes into effect if something evil is occuring...or in someone's mind. So, if the Paladin thought homosexuality was evil....and some guy started looking at him in a certain way....the detect evil would work in this case. >But just the fact of being homosexual shouldn't be picked up as evil. Only if an action or thought is taking place. Sounds to me like it depends on your definition of homosexuality. Is it an act or a condition? The question was rhetorical since the jury is still out. The point is that no one is inherently evil. Here I am speaking about normal mortal people that the paladin is likely to just stumble across in everyday life. Actions are evil, not people. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:55:05 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Threads That Need to Die... Mystarans, It is, unfortunately, time to step in and put an end to several threads running here. Please end all discussion of the following topics... Slavery Religion The Nature of Evil Medieval Politics ...unless you can tie them directly to Mystara. Eight full paragrpahs of off-topic stuff with one line saying "Uh, kinda like in Minrothad" will not cut it. If you want to discuss how slavery impacts the day to day life of a Thyatian, that's fine. Discussing slavery in general is not. Discussing how the people of Mystara practice religion is fine. Discussing how the chinese practice religion is not. And, while we're at it... play nice! Relax. This is a mailing list about a fantasy world, not a place to air your frustrations. I have never booted anyone for being consistently rude, but I think I may be forced to do that here before too long if the mood on the list doesn't lighten up soon. Simple: if you feel the need to be a jerk, to get pissy about things not related to Mystara, do it through private e-mail. Thanks. Enjoy... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:37:46 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers At 02:01 PM 3/5/98 EST, you wrote: >Which countries are good? Canada is a good country. So good, in fact, that our government does not admit the existence of evil. This enables drug dealers, murderers, crime bosses, and other upstanding citizens to come to Canada by claiming they are persecuted in their homeland. The immigration board hasn't yet picked up that they are actually saying 'prosecuted' in their homeland. Still, all kidding aside, Canada does in fact have a well-known record in Europe and Japan (probably elsewhere) as being a pretty good place to live. We've been rated #1 among the world's nations several times in the last 10 years, and we're always near the top. Canada's a pretty good place, and I'm proud of it. As for Mystara, I would say that Karameikos is a good country. Much like Canada's leaders, King Stefan has a problem accepting that there are really bad people out there (like his cousin), and he really works hard to improve the nation. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:56:38 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Get a 12 Page Thyatian Calender in PDF Format For Free! (Makes a Good Birdcage Liner) I sent this once before, but it hasn't shown up, so I thought I would send it again... Ever thought a full-sized Thyatian calender might come in handy for campaign planning and "atmosphere?" Well, fret no more, cause now you can get one from the MML webpage at... http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/mysthome.html This calender is in PDF format and includes moon phases [1] and the solstices and equinoxes [2]. Each date has plenty of space for the GM to jot down notes and such. The calender is not overly "pretty", but is quite functional. Mayhap in the future I will spruce it. This is sort of a "beta." My next step will be to add all the holidays and festivals from the PWA. This will take some time, though, so download the current version and tell me what you think. BTW, if the margins don't seem to work for your printer, trying using the shrink to fit option, or the percentile size option (90-95 oughtta work), depending on the version of Acrobat you are using. [1] Don't know if the directions the first and last quarter moons are facing are correct. [2] Now you know why I was asking... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:15:32 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers At 05:40 PM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >Sure. Would anyone argue redeeming qualities about Jeffrey Dahmer (a cannibalistic serial killer)? Or Paul Bernardo, the Canadian serial rapist (most hated man in Ontario)? >Something that just occured to me...I can pick out several evil countries: Hule, Broken Lands, Ethengar, Shadowelf Territories, Heldann Protectorate, Denagoth. Now I understand that a couple of these depend on the individual campaign (stop frothing Jamuga!) but you get the picture. I really don't see Ethengar as being 'evil'. They are Mystaran Mongols, true. But they aren't necessarily evil. They want to conquer, and they hate Glantrians and Heldanners. But they aren't like Denagoth or Hule, where pain and suffering are popular things. The Ethengars are nomadic warriors. They aren't assassins. >However I can not think of any "good" countries. All the rest are different shades of neutral. Interesting... I've mentioned Karameikos in another post. Darokin and the Shires are pretty good; the Darokinians are peacemongers, since peace is better for merchants. Yes, there's a mercantile greed involved, but peace is a laudable goal anyway. Besides, wars are also good for business if you're into weapons. As for the Shires, they've got pirates but for the most part they are good people who've gone through a lot of nasty history and come through it with a decent attitude. >Yeah, them Canadians qualify as only a little bit evil...(Just kidding Geoff, JAMM, and any others!) You're just jealous because we got more medals that you in Japan. Better luck in Salt Lake City, Yank! Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #147 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:44:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #148 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: dfb8c2a41c6171b27e4e16712645de6d mystara-digest Friday, March 6 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 148 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Immortal Worship [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Get a 12 Page Thyatian Calender in PDF Format For Free! (Makes a Good Birdcage Liner) Re: [MYSTARA] - Pellucidar Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points Re: Immortal Worship [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] Re: [MYSTARA] - Pellucidar [MYSTARA] - M-Files (Adventure Ideas, Part 1) Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? [MYSTARA] - Drakes everywhere [MYSTARA] - Meredoth, the RL Necromancer from Norwold [MYSTARA] - An Adventure Re: Immortal Worship [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:11:17 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Slavery In a message dated 98-03-04 07:50:10 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >I am arguing whether we should >have an official definition of good/evil. It all depends on who you ask, right? Gengis Khan would probably be considered a good man by many Mongols, in spite of his cruelty. Today we may characterize them as evil, but that is at least partially because we are from a different culture. IIf you met Gengis Khan, he would certainly have a different opinion on good/evil than you. But who is right? I would say that there isn´t any answer to that. And if any of us where to argue with Gengis he´d probably kill us so.... ;P The difference in culture may have partially affected the actions of Genghis Khan, but it is not enough to prevent anyone from evaluating his actions and making judgments. Whether it would be safe to do so is immaterial -- the difference would be whether we state our judgements, not whether we make them. Certainly he is far enough removed that we could judge any facts impartially -- I am sure that there is evidence for both good deeds and evil that he comitted. Given the ruthlessness that is required for one to be able to conquer a significant portion of the civilized world, I would have to lean towards placing him on the side of evil, along with just about every other major conqueror. This judgment says very little about his successors or his predecessors, of course. Besides, the same sort of arguments could be made about Hitler, who was quite clearly a product of Western European culture. Any modern person who is unable to regard him as evil has clearly lost all moral sense. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:11:36 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-04 08:33:21 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >I was pretty sure that the Ylari people, in Gaz 3(?) were described as bbelieving only in Al Kalim. That Protius was honored by Al but the Ylari people weren't really aware of him. I will have to check tonight... Gaz 2 is where you should look -- Gaz 3 is the Glantri gazetteer. And I did check. The followers of Eternal Truth clearly revere "Immortals" (plural) -- in fact, the "traditional" phrases given in that gazetteer, which are clearly meant to correspond to traditional Muslim sayings, say "Immortals" where a Muslim would definitely say "Allah". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:11:41 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-04 10:31:17 EST, bjm10@cornell.edu writes: >I also consider the hard and fast separation of "mage" vs. "cleric" to be ffairly dim-witted, also something that is purely 20th-century. Pre-industrial societies recognized licit and illicit wonder-workers. Licit ones might be formal priests or not, illicit ones were simply condemned as "witches" or whatever the local equivalent term would be. But in any case, all of them were seen as tapping into some supernatural power source, be it divine or demonic. There was no mechanical "this is magic-user magic", vs. "this is cleric magic". I think we see the beginnings of this distinction in the late Middle Ages, if not earlier. The astrologers, alchemists, and "natural philosophers" of that period clearly used an approach that could be compared to that of a magic-user. Given that there was no basis in Christianity for claiming that any of these arts were of divine origin, that would leave demonic magic as the only possibility if all magic had a supernatural power source. The Church's uncertainty in dealing with these individuals seems to have left open the possibility of what we would call wizardly magic. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:11:46 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: Paladins & Slavery [Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] In a message dated 98-03-04 11:05:43 EST, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: >What I recall from the Elric series is how evil the Melnibone-ites were eeven when Elric ruled. He was an "enlightened" king but his countrymen were pretty evil. Yet they were a lawful society... Lawful? Let's see -- they were very self-absorbed, preferring to while away their time in drug induced hallucinations rather than maintain or rebuild their empire. Furthermore, they were dedicated to Chaotic deities. It is true that they were firm about observing certain customs and traditions, but even the Melniboneans recognized these traditions as being arbritrary whims of their gods, not part of a greater law code. No, by Elric's time the Melniboneans were definitely Chaotic. Had they been Lawful, their society would not have decayed and collapsed as easily as it did. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:35:49 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Immortal Worship [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] At 11:11 PM 3/5/98 EST, you wrote: >Gaz 2 is where you should look -- Gaz 3 is the Glantri gazetteer. And I did check. The followers of Eternal Truth clearly revere "Immortals" (plural) -- in fact, the "traditional" phrases given in that gazetteer, which are clearly meant to correspond to traditional Muslim sayings, say "Immortals" where a Muslim would definitely say "Allah". I think we can agree that they (or other countries) don't allow the open worship of all Immortals. A culture that believes lying is wrong isn't likely to worship an Immortal that favors liars. So, do the Immortals pathos change in each culture or do those cultures choose Immortals that fit with their beliefs? Or do all nations worship Immortals as a whole believing you have to accept the good and the bad? _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:21:02 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 04:24 PM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: >>>>What I´m saying is that there is no general rule. It isn´t in the real world and thus I dont think it should be on Mystara. I agree with you on the fact that slavery is evil. But those are only our opinions. Not general rules. Anyone are free to disagree, right? >>>Actually, it is the general rule. TSR has defined evil pertaining to our game. Going by what they say slavery is evil. I understand what you're saying about it being an opinion in the RW. In TSR's world they have ddefined >>>it for us. >>Your point being...? >My point? It was stated that there is no general rule on what is evil. I stated that I believe there is a general rule and I explained this. Your question is aimed at myself so I feel I should respond to it, but my point is pretty obvious. I really don't know what else to say. Let me try to simplify it for you. >Is there a rule to what is evil? >Him - no >Me - yes >OK? It is swiftly becoming a question of semantics. TSR's definition of good and evil is not a "general rule" in terms of RW belief. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:05:55 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Get a 12 Page Thyatian Calender in PDF Format For Free! (Makes a Good Birdcage Liner) Ever thought a full-sized Thyatian calender might come in handy for campaign planning and "atmosphere?" Well, fret no more, cause now you can get one from the MML webpage at... http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/mysthome.html This calender is in PDF format and includes moon phases [1] and the solstices and equinoxes [2]. Each date has plenty of space for the GM to jot down notes and such. The calender is not overly "pretty", but is quite functional. Mayhap in the future I will spruce it. This is sort of a "beta." My next step will be to add all the holidays and festivals from the PWA. This will take some time, though, so download the current version and tell me what you think. BTW, if the margins don't seem to work for your printer, trying using the shrink to fit option, or the percentile size option (90-95 oughtta work), depending on the version of Acrobat you are using. [1] Don't know if the directions the first and last quarter moons are facing are correct. [2] Now you know why I was asking... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:42:40 -0500 From: "DJ Sahlas" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Pellucidar Hey, folks With respect to the Hollow World, it just struck me the other day that the similarity to the inner world of "Pellucidar" has seldom been mentioned on the list. How many of you are familiar with these books by Edgar Rice Burroughs? When the Hollow World boxed set first came out, I thought to myself that the similarities were just too many to have been accidental. For those of you unfamiliar with Pellucidar, there were seven novels eventually published (several decades ago) set in this prehistoric/fantasy world. They would be excellent inspiration for adventures in the Hollow World. None of these stories were very sophisticated. Putting it into perspective, however, I have never read a TSR novel that was terribly sophisticated. They definitely give the existing Mystara novels a run for their money. For those of you interested, a brief review of sorts follows: At the Earth's Core - Well-paced and with adventure hooks all over the place. The most descriptive of the inner world IIRC and therefore probably the best to be read for inspiration. A cliff-hanger ending I still remember after all these years. Pellucidar, Tanar of Pellucidar - also quite good (at least, I thought so when I read them around age 17). All kinds of new societies described. Lost kingdoms, power struggles, and intrigue all around. Tarzan at the Earth's Core - Edgar Rice Burroughs was, of course, the author of the Tarzan novels (the original tales were nothing like any of the Tarzan movies). Still, a good book to read for adventure ideas in the Hollow World. Back to the Stone Age, Land of Terror, Savage Pellucidar - more formulaic. The plots really start to suffer by this point in the series, but still a fun read with plenty of (loosely-connected) adventure ideas. I'll bet there are some Burroughs bibliophiles amongst you. Those of you that are not have probably never heard of these books and would likely find them both entertaining and useful. Jim Sahlas *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:26:47 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points Galwylin pontificated: >That's not a bad rule. Although, I think it would be better to increase the damage of weapons. There's no wonder there are so many power-gamers since the rules are geared to that with hit points and levels. BTW, if we consider ourselves 0-level characters, are there any higher level folks in the RW? Just a thought... I consider myself a 6th level engineer. However, I still roll to hit and saving throws as normal man, and I don't gain hit points as I advance in level :). Some people in military and law enforcement can probably be consider to be high level fighters, and there are probably some high level thieves around. John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:13:30 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points In a message dated 98-03-05 18:30:56 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >BTW, if >we consider ourselves 0-level characters, are there any higher level folks in the RW? Just a thought... Sure. People with military training and experience might be low to mid level Fighters. A few people may qualify as low level Thieves. And if you use the AD&D supplement _Sages and Specialists_ you will find several classes that may well have real world counterparts. But I suspect that "name level" characters would be very limited. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:13:35 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hit Points In a message dated 98-03-04 18:02:30 EST, Inconu@aol.com writes: ><< Does anyone use a system other than hit points to determine injuries in MMystara? >> >I've tried a few...but nothing that stuck. It's usually too difficult or too >time consuming, but I'd love to hear anyone else that may have some ideas on >this. The system in Pendragon isn't too bad -- each combatant makes a roll to hit. If both hit, then the higher successful roll hits and is parried by the other's shield, which (along with armor) absorbs some of the rolled damage. Of course, this system works best with combatants who are hacking away at each other with swords, defending themselves with shields, and counting on armor rather than speed to protect them from blows that slip past their shields. Change any of these basic assumptions and combat becomes much more complex. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:13:08 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: Immortal Worship [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] In a message dated 98-03-05 23:51:28 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >I think we can agree that they (or other countries) don't allow the open wworship of all Immortals. A culture that believes lying is wrong isn't likely to worship an Immortal that favors liars. So, do the Immortals pathos change in each culture or do those cultures choose Immortals that fit with their beliefs? Or do all nations worship Immortals as a whole believing you have to accept the good and the bad? It does seem clear that each nation has a few favorite Immortals out of the whole pantheon available, and that worship of certain Immortals may well be compulsory or forbidden in certain nations. But it is also true that particular Immortals are perceived in different ways in different places - -- for an example, note Tubak the patron of Law in Ethengar, who turns out to be the not-so-Lawful Ixion in reality. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:27:39 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Pellucidar In a message dated 98-03-06 01:03:36 EST, dsahla@po-box.mcgill.ca writes: >With respect to the Hollow World, it just struck me the other day that the similarity to the inner world of "Pellucidar" has seldom been mentioned on the list. How many of you are familiar with these books by Edgar Rice Burroughs? >From your description of these books it seems quite clear where TSR got the Neathar tribes from. I think I may have to try to hunt these books down.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:29:03 +0100 (MET) From: DM Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:44:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #148 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: dfb8c2a41c6171b27e4e16712645de6d Subject: [MYSTARA] - M-Files (Adventure Ideas, Part 1) Hi guys! Back to work after a long studying period! I was checking thru my files yesterday after a debilitating day and i found out something i thought it was interesting: basically X-Files episodes adapted to Ravenloft. Well, i've decided to do the same, but adapting them (some of them) to Mystara. That's the first part: read and enjoy! PS: do not expect the second part so soon.. since my comp has just died.. ;) DM The M-Files By Marco Dalmonte This collection of adventure hooks center on the TV series X-Files and can be played by any group of adventurers. However, some of them (or all of them) can be linked together in a huge campaign that puts the characters vs. a mysterious group that wants to masquerade or cover up their involvement in numerous events that happen in the world. What the final goal of this mysterious group is however, is left to the DM to tailor to his campaign. As a final note, it should be also possible to recreate the atmosphere of government cover ups if the party works for such a government. In this case, they could be special agents working for Alphatia or Thyatis (which have a wide network of spies and informators who can direct the players to the various cases) or for a new political body called IBS (International Bureau of Security), a branch of the WDL (Western Defense League) that has the power to operate in all the state members of the WDL. Enjoy the adventures! Squeeze This adventure is best set in Glantri, Alphatia or Thyatis. Eugene Victor Tooms is a murderer who was sentenced to death back in AC 850. However, unknown to everybody, the government decided to volounteer him to experiment special potions and new magical dweomers. After a year, Tooms died during a last experiment involving altering his genetic structure mixing it with parts of amoeboid creatures. His corpse was then dropped in the disposal compound to be assimilated by gelatinous cubes. However, he wasn't dead, but merely cataleptic. The genetic structure of Tooms had udergone many transformations in the precedent months and when he awoke, he was able to free himself from the gelationous cube and to escape the compound. Now he roams the streets of the most crowded citites of the country and has the following powers/characteristics (he's a veritable living ghoul): - -his eyes glow yellow when he is experiencing strong emotion and has Infravision (90'); - -he has stopped aging; - -he is forced to hibernate for thirty years at a time to maintain his youth, if -he fails to return to hibernation within one year of waking, his age starts catching up with him at fast pace (this he discovered soon); - -to enter and survive hibernation, he must consume five human livers; - -he hiberates in a nest made of trash bound together by a glue-like substance he produces from the bile in the livers; - -his skeletal and muscular structures have changed so that he can squeeze through very small openings (vents, chimnies, barred windows, etc; maximum 10' radius); - -he finds the taste, smell, and texture of decaying meat appealing (must make a Wis check to resist eating rotten food whenever he finds it); - -he has the power to regenerate lost limbs and body parts (2 hp per round) The PCs will have to cope with him when a strange series of death will begin to befall some people in town... Jersey Devil Feral humans are hunting the populace of a small village. In a region near a primeval forest (Alfheim border, Karameikos or the eastern Thyatis), loggers of a small village start to disappear and the local logging company begins to lose money for the delay of his workers. When the workers threaten to leave if the beasts that prowl the forest are not dealt with, the company asks the government to take matters in its own hands and it sends the PCs investigating. They will discover that the corpses have been mauled and partially eaten by a strange type of unknown animal... these are humans preying on humans in the most literal sense. Degenerated humans (brute men maybe, but definitely humans) still live in those woods and want to protect their territory.. and hunt for survival. They have the power to camouflage with the surroundings, so it will be really difficult to spot them (Infravision works only when they are in motion; Detect Invisible and Trueseeing might be better). [i've mixed this old episode with another one on pourpose here] Ice In a cold northern region (Glantrian Alps, northern Norwold) a meteor strikes down from the sky. The nearest mages (magical guilds) hire the PCs to build up an expedition and retrieve parts of that meteor to use for studies and magical researches. Once there, the research team is forced by bad weather conditions to remain inside a wooden refuge waiting for better conditions to make the trip back (this means the group must not have means of Teleporting itself back). During their stay one of them is infected by a parasite from the meteor. The parasite is a worm that feeds by attatching to the hypothalamus and absorbing its secretions (it could feed on Psi Points or Spell Levels ot Int or Wis or whatever too). Anyhow, the effect of this is that the person's emotional state changes. They become paranoid, then angry, finally homicidal. When the party discovers one of those strange worms about to enter the ear of one of them, the doubt that anyone could have already been infected spreads fast... The best way to do this is to create a claustrophobic feel and emphasize that no-one can know for certain who is infected and who isn't. The PCs must find a cure before it's too late.. and before they run out of provisions. Eve This is best set in Glantri, Thyatis or Alphatia. The government's magists are trying to create a super-soldier (or spy or something). They have taken the best females they could find and created clones of her altering their genetics so that they look normal but are super-smart and super-strong: the perfect unsuspecting ultimate weapon (a special type of flesh golem). However, the clones are also aware of their status and want to escape their creators' yoke, so some of them finally fool their masters and are able to escape. They look like young girls, but are hardened killers. Also, a design flaw causes their bodies to start going bezerk, changing and growing increasingly inhuman. When some girls are accused of killing their parents in different parts of the country, the PCs start investigating, with the government secret agents trying to retrieve or eliminate the golems in the meantime. Beyond the Sea A murder similar to the ones committed by a convicted criminal occurs and the characters are called to investigate (maybe they did arrest the original criminal..). The former murderer however is in prisonl, still awaiting execution. In fact, the prisoner has escaped the noose twice before (this is the reason of his delayed execution), and when the characters go visiting him he claims to have achieved contact with the spirit world from that brush with death. In front of them, he channels the spirit of someone close to a member of the party and begins taunting him/her with memories from the past (perhaps memories of guilt or sin). Is it real or is the prisoner trying to fore-stall he execution? And more important, who did commit the murder? It comes out that the new murderer is a copycat that wants to imitate the former, and only with the strange powers of divination of the convicted they will be able to find him.. but at what price? [End of Part 1] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:29:22 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Giants and Giant-kin Jeff Daly wrote: <> UH!????????? I must have missed that one.. could you please tell me where i can find it? It's really strange... DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:29:06 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >This makes me wonder. Does anyone recall the original creators of Mystara (the Known World) or those that contributed to it (besides Bruce and Aaron who aren't with TSR any longer I believe)? Well, the ones i remember are: Frank Mentzer (D&D rules third ed., IM1) Dave Arneson (DDA1, DDA2, DDA3) Aaron Allston (GAZ1, GAZ6, DotE, HW, RC, WotI, X12) Bruce Heard (Editor of all Gaz, but in particular GAZ3 & GAZ10, Princess Ark Voyages, CM7, M1, Book of Wondrous Inventions) Ken Rolston (GAZ2, GAZ7, IM3, Dragon's Den) Ann Gray MacReady (GAZ4, CM5) Steve Perrin (GAZ5, CM9) Ed Greenwood (GAZ8, CM8) Deborah Christian (AC10, GAZ9 with Kim Eastland) Scott Haring (GAZ11) William W. Connors (GAZ11, GAZ14, Haunted Tower) Jim Bambra (GAZ12, PC3, B10, O2) Carl Sargent (GAZ13 with Gary Thomas, PC2) John Nephew (PC1, HWR1) Ann Dupuis (PWAs, CoM, PC4) Tom Moldvay (B3, B4, X1, X2, M3) David Cook (B6, X1, X4, X5, CM4, M1SOLO) Douglas Niles (B5, X3, CM1, CM3) Graeme Morris (most of the AC, B10, X8, CM6) Merle Rasmussen (X6, X9 -the Savage Coast region is his original idea) Allen Varney (M4, HWA1, HWA2, HWA3) Stephen Bourne (X11, X13) Tim Beach (Red Steel campaign & Savage Coast revamped) Bruce Nesmith (X7, CM3) Michael Dobson (X10) Paul Jacquays (M5, many interior art designs) Skip Williams (M2) These are the most important names of the authors of Mystara and D&D campaign, obviously including Gary Gygax who also wrote B2 (for those of you who like trivia). Just a few comments on some of the names: Bruce Heard and Aaron Allston have been the most active in producing stuff for fleshing out Mystara as a real campaign, with Tom Moldvay and David Cook helping mainly with their adventures set in characteristic and definite areas of the world. Allston still writes and publishes novels nowadays (sci-fi IIRC) and Bruce has got a new job; he sometimes submits articles that flesh out Mystaran races to Dragon mag. I don't know where Tom Moldvay is or works now, as for Dave "Zeb" Cook he was in charge of Spelljammer (and Skip Williams worked with him) until the project was closed back in 1993. Don't know where they roam now. William W. Connors and Bruce Nesmith were some of the guys who created the Ravenloft campaign setting (Nesmith was the first editor for the project). William Connors is still one of the head chiefs of the Kargat (the RL designers), as for Nesmith i ignore his "fate". Last note: Ann Gray Macready wrote, IMO, two of the worst products for D&D (GAZ4 & CM5).. i wonder why she had the chance to make twice the same mistake.. (i'm being really rude here.. i know ;)). DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:29:38 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Drakes everywhere Andrew Morrow III wrote: <> Well, since i have now a wooddrake in my campaign as a PC (unknown to the other players), i have had to cope with this issue and with other problems too. Well, PC1 says that the drake has the ability to shapechange into another creature, so i personally rule that the drake can also get the racial abilities of the form (infravision, find traps): this of course depends on the XP of the drake, as u said (he will get the abilities when he has enough XPs). Also, these abilities only work when he's in that special form and not with others, and this pertains only physical abilities, not magical ones (similar to polymorph spell). If you rule that a demihuman ability/immunity is magical, then it doesn't apply to the drake. So for example, IMC i don't give my drake in elf form immunity to undead paralysis, and i won't give him the special immunities that come with Attack Ranks too, because that's a magical defense of very powerful and experienced elves, imho. But i got other questions for you that my player asked me: 1) can drakes assume forms of different sexes? I allow my player to have a male wooddrake who can turn into a female elf and a male halfling 2) Are drakes sexuate beings? 3) How do drakes view their relationships with different humanoids of different sexes? I do rule that the drake has a set of mind appropriate to that of the form he chooses: if he's a male he'll like females and vice versa; the race doesn't count that much, however. Or you could say a drake is bisexual.. could be? 4) Can a shapechanged drake get pregnant? If so what happens if he turns into normal form or into another? I rule that as long as he remains shapechanged he lives exactly as that lifeform, so he can have babies if he remains an elfin for enough months. If he shapechanges during the pregnancy, he loses the baby. What kind of baby will be born is highly debatable.. Okay, i think that's all for now.. just some questions to feed your imagination ;) DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:29:46 +0100 (MET) From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Meredoth, the RL Necromancer from Norwold Galwylin wrote: <> We'll probably mention his domain, Todstein, and the Isle of Graben in next almanac (AC1016) in the entry for Norwold, mentioning the disappearence of its inhabitants, so to tie with the official source. The location of the islands is probably the Great Bay, given the fact that they're really small islands. Stay tuned for more information.. DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 10:28:22 +0100 From: Lorenzo Subject: [MYSTARA] - An Adventure IMC I'm going to set an adventure in the forest of Canolbarth, now the wicked Aengmor. The PCs are likely to enter "the forest dim" (as J. Keats would say) and, passing through the tunnels of the shadow elves, they will reach the ruins of a Ixion's Temple where there is, down in the crypts, a powerful artifact, etc etc ... I will appreciate: 1. Any good idea or suggestion to help me creating the atmosphere of those places (I read only the Net's "Shadow Elves Handbooks") 2. Any suggestion to add some creative encounters 3. A good site where to find informations related to my aim 4. Any other thing you would like to say Should anyone of you have set a nice adventure there, he might help me very much. Lorenzo. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:48:26 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: Immortal Worship [was Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers] On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-05 23:51:28 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >>I think we can agree that they (or other countries) don't allow the open wwworship of all Immortals. A culture that believes lying is wrong isn't likely to worship an Immortal that favors liars. So, do the Immortals pathos change in each culture or do those cultures choose Immortals that fit with their beliefs? Or do all nations worship Immortals as a whole believing you have to accept the good and the bad? >It does seem clear that each nation has a few favorite Immortals out of the whole pantheon available, and that worship of certain Immortals may well be compulsory or forbidden in certain nations. But it is also true that particular Immortals are perceived in different ways in different places -- for an example, note Tubak the patron of Law in Ethengar, who turns out to be the not-so-Lawful Ixion in reality. IMC there are two major Religions in the Known World There is the Church of Thyatis and Aasatru(the Faith of the Northern Reaches) The Church of Karameikos and the Church of Darokin(the latter by Marco Dalmonte) are considered sects within the Church of Thyatis. The Following of Al-kalim, the Church of Traladara, the Faith of the Ethengar Steppe Nomads and the religion of the Children of Athruagin are considered as different religions, but they are not widespread enough to be considered major ones. Both the following of Al-Kalim and the Church of Karameikos are growing religions. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #148 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, March 7 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 149 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright PBeM Re: [MYSTARA] - An Adventure Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? [MYSTARA] - More on AD&D Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Drakes everywhere Re: [MYSTARA] - More on AD&D Immortals ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:04:09 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << It is swiftly becoming a question of semantics. TSR's definition of good and evil is not a "general rule" in terms of RW belief. >> Right, but don't you consider it a general rule in terms of D&D? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:14:16 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Birthright PBeM Greetings, I apologize for posting this 'ad' again, but I still need several more players for my Birthright PBeM, set in Mystara. We already did the first action round, but you can join if you want to. If you are interested, please contact me PERSONALLY (messages to the list will be ignored). Thanks for your attention. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:53:40 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - An Adventure In a message dated 98-03-06 05:09:01 EST, you write: << IMC I'm going to set an adventure in the forest of Canolbarth, now the wicked Aengmor. The PCs are likely to enter "the forest dim" (as J. Keats would say) and, passing through the tunnels of the shadow elves, they will reach the ruins of a Ixion's Temple where there is, down in the crypts, a powerful artifact, etc etc ... I will appreciate: 1. Any good idea or suggestion to help me creating the atmosphere of those places (I read only the Net's "Shadow Elves Handbooks") 2. Any suggestion to add some creative encounters 3. A good site where to find informations related to my aim 4. Any other thing you would like to say Should anyone of you have set a nice adventure there, he might help me very much. >> Hmmm I seem to remember a mini-adventure from GAZ5 (I think) which was set in the Canolbarth Forest, which included a tomb from ancient Nithia. This might be adaptable to what you are looking for. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:53:59 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Glen Sprigg wrote: >Actually, I scoured the Ylaruam Gazetteer, but I couldn't find any indication that they worshipped any specific immortal, just the teachings of Al-Kalim. I do find it odd that a desert people would worship the Old Man of the Sea... IMC I consider Al-Kalim to be the *only* Immortal worshipped by Ylari. Gives them more style that way, makes them more unique, rather than being just another polytheistic country. I did, however, make a list of Immortals who were worshipped by Ylari before Al-Kalim, as well as their reactions to his takeover. ****************************** ** ** ** Aleksei Andrievski ** ** k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi ** ** aka Solmyr, the Archmage ** ** of the Azure Star ** ** ** ****************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 08:51:11 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Slavery (was:- Avengers >>However I can not think of any "good" countries. All the rest are different shades of neutral. Interesting... >I've mentioned Karameikos in another post. Darokin and the Shires are pretty good; the Darokinians are peacemongers, since peace is better for merchants. Yes, there's a mercantile greed involved, but peace is a laudable goal anyway. Besides, wars are also good for business if you're into weapons. As for the Shires, they've got pirates but for the most part they are good people who've gone through a lot of nasty history and come through it with a decent attitude. Yeah, but Karameikan, Darokinian, and Shire "goodness" is not really what I meant. I mean, at least in my own head, they are good in the same way that an Ethengarian can be considered bad. But I can't think of any say...paladinic countries...countries where the pursuit of good is considered the be all and end all of life. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:21:18 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? At 09:29 AM 3/6/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Well, the ones i remember are: >Frank Mentzer (D&D rules third ed., IM1) Nitpicking comment: 1st and only edition of the Master's Set. >Dave Arneson (DDA1, DDA2, DDA3) I always found it interesting that he only did these three. Is it my imagination or did these three seem to be leading somewhere? >Aaron Allston (GAZ1, GAZ6, DotE, HW, RC, WotI, X12) Some of the best and worst stuff. I was very resistant to HW when it first came out...in fact, a player wanted to become a DM and asked me if it was ok for her to use the HW. I said definately because I had no intention of ever touching the stuff. Before she ran her game she broke up with the guy she was going out with and skipped town...leaving all her HW stuff at her old boyfriend's (a DM in the group btw) house. He sold the material to me real cheap. I read it and now have a different opinion on the setting. >Douglas Niles (B5, X3, CM1, CM3) X3 is arguably one of the best modules. At the time it lended an incredible amount of setting detail to an area that had only a 1 paragraph blurb. Awesome city with political intrigue. >Merle Rasmussen (X6, X9 -the Savage Coast region is his original idea) Not only X9, but there was a Dungeon magazine adventure called "Tortles of the Purple Sage" wherein he detailed the areas north of the Savage coast. The module covers areas not covered by the RC/SC boxed set or the Princess Ark articles. >Stephen Bourne (X11, X13) X13 is pretty awesome. But I don't have X11. Anyone have an opinion on it? >Bruce Heard and Aaron Allston have been the most active in producing stuff for fleshing out Mystara as a real campaign, with Tom Moldvay and David Cook helping mainly with their adventures set in characteristic and definite areas of the world. I don't know if the KW was invented as a setting and Tom Moldvay set X1 in it, or if he invented the KW setting for his module... Allston still writes and publishes novels nowadays ((sci-fi IIRC) and Bruce has got a new job; What does Bruce do now, btw? I mean besides be a good father... >I don't know where Tom Moldvay He has been missing a long time now... >is or works now, as for Dave "Zeb" Cook he was in charge of Spelljammer As I recall, he left for a different game company...a long time ago. (and >Skip Williams worked with him) I believe he also does "Sage Advice" >Last note: Ann Gray Macready wrote, IMO, two of the worst products for D&D (GAZ4 & CM5).. Was CM5 "Mystery of the Snow Pearls"? I thought that was an okay module. Which one was Gaz4? I can think of the one before and after but... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:25:10 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 07:04 AM 3/6/98 EST, you wrote: ><< It is swiftly becoming a question of semantics. TSR's definition of good aand evil is not a "general rule" in terms of RW belief. >> >Right, but don't you consider it a general rule in terms of D&D? In terms of AD&D yes, in terms of D&D no. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:56:03 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] In a message dated 98-03-05 21:01:22 EST, brunciak wrote: <> IIRC the inhabitants of the Pearl Islands are prone to walk about naked. But setting up said nudist colony elsewhere, is possible. Ierendi should have one. Kingdom of Argansa in Alphatia. You know, places where everyday morality gets left at the door :-) << Seriously though, the situation of PCs always having armor on is mundane. I'm not saying that PCs ALWAYS where armor, but why do most encounters tend to have the PCs fully armed and armored? Just once I'd like to see a PC surprised in the bath. Now THAT'S and encounter. >> Well, IMC my PC Allstrick had a reputation as a lady's man. That often got him in trouble. One such time involved Allstrick in a compromising position with a young lass when her two brothers and father, plus an uncle barged in. Needles to say, they were not amused at the thought of a "half elf" deflowering the jewel of the family. The DM based Allstricks AC on an unarmored person. And after Allstrick had gotten free of the bedding, sheets, undergarments, etc. the AC was adjusted for Dexterity bonuses. I was also handicapped Initiative wise. Allstrick was without proper weapons for most of the fight and depended upon spells. There is a canon situation for this "a PC caught with his/her pants down" scenario. It's in the HW adventure, The Milenian Sceptor. I guess you could do the same with Thyatian public baths. IMC I often had my PCs and NPCs to have adventure appearance as well as off duty appearance. You see this in some character descriptions in D&D and AD&D texts. In the case of Allstrick, events such as the one described above led him to suppliment his defenses when not wearing armor. This means grew in regularity as Allstrick took on a less active adventuring lifestyle. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:51:38 -0600 From: "Cecil Cosman" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hit Points What about if some type of fighting/parry system was created where a person could sacrifice part of their attack to defend with. for example. If you need a 12 to hit something but your fearful of it and it's going to kill you, you might could ssacrifice 3 to your hit (giving you a 15 to hit) for a 3 bonus to your ac. There would have to be a limit on how much a person could sacrifice. 'cause those high level characters don't need all that much to hit a person. so maybe a percentage of your attack or whatever would lower your to hit more then 10. figure 10 is half way and after you lower yourself past the midpoint your not attacking anymore. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:24:01 EST From: CRlPTONITE Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels I believe this was mentioned in the past but I dont remember if an answer was ever given or if there is just no answer. What language or languages does the name Jaggar von Drachenfels come from? And what do the words mean? - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:46:47 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? DM pontificated: >Well, the ones i remember are: You remember all those?!? John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:23:20 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-05 15:20:27 EST, I wrote: <> Haven't determined as yet if SC wheel locks are really wheel locks or are they more akin to flint locks. All I can find on the matter is the Savage Baronies box set. Until I can find the RS box set this will have to do. However, a wheel lock type firearm is easy to describe. The firing mechanism is basically internal. A key type wrech is used to turn a nut on the side to tighten a coiled spring inside the gun. The spring causes a rough steel wheel to spin when the trigger is pulled. The wheel rubs against a flint piece. This causes sparks whick ignite the flashpan. In short, it was very simular to a Bic lighter. This firing mechanism was complicated and required a watch maker's skills to fix. The key had a habit of getting lost in the midst of battle. The flint (or more correctly soft steel) had a habit of wearing badly (no spark). Powder quality sucked as there were no standards. <> The above mentioned creature is not a Mystaran MC creature. My mistake. I found him in the AD&D Monstrous Manual. The creature is the Giff. A hippo like humanoid. Very military and quite giddy (as a school girl) at the damage his weaponry does. In any group of Giffs there is a 20% chance of one having an arquebus. Though the weapon shown in the creature's illustration looks more like a flint or match lock pistol. *************************************************************************** Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:10:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #149 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: daab6fb12f53c413379e0a967e6d11b7 To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:23:15 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers >>Right, but don't you consider it a general rule in terms of D&D? >In terms of AD&D yes, in terms of D&D no. So, what do you use as a general rule in your campaigns? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:13:02 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >What language or languages does the name Jaggar von Drachenfels come from? Vy, it koms frrrrrom der Holly-vood Dcher-mahn akkhh-tsent, uf kors. It doesn't actually mean anything--it just sounds K00L and "Germanic-like". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:41:30 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >I believe this was mentioned in the past but I dont remember if an answer was ever given or if there is just no answer. What language or languages does the name Jaggar von Drachenfels come from? And what do the words mean? I remember that thread. It was speculated that Jaggar was german-like, similar to the word jaeger which means hunter. "von Drachenfels" is definately german. von meaning of, and I belive Drachenfels means Dragonmountain. Kindly, Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:28:30 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Alex295 wrote: >However, a wheel lock type firearm is easy to describe. The firing mechanism is basically internal. A key type wrech is used to turn a nut on the side to The spring that drives the wheel is internal, as is the spring that drives the flint into the hammer of a flintlock. However, the wheel is on the outside--a minor detail that makes a difference. Wheellocks fire in damp weather, but they still can't fire in a downpour any better than can a flintlock. >This firing mechanism was complicated and required a watch maker's skills to fix. The key had a habit of getting lost in the midst of battle. The flint (or more correctly soft steel) had a habit of wearing badly (no spark). Powder The flint was never mild steel. The flint was always flint. The problem is that the flint was often of low quality. A flintlock is less sensitive to low-quality flints than is a wheellock, since the flinty's firing mechanism has less wear per shot. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:30:51 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << I do find it odd that a desert people would worship the Old Man of the Sea... Glen >> The magical word is "water", Glen. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 15:48:52 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers At 12:23 PM 3/6/98 EST, you wrote: >>>Right, but don't you consider it a general rule in terms of D&D? >>In terms of AD&D yes, in terms of D&D no. >So, what do you use as a general rule in your campaigns? Man, I have no idea what this was even about...keep some semblance of the question in the message when you delete! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:54:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >At 08:50 PM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Seriously though, the situation of PCs always having armor on is mundane. I'm not saying that PCs ALWAYS where armor, but why do most encounters tend to have the PCs fully armed and armored? Just once I'd like to see a PC surprised in the bath. Now THAT'S and encounter. >Funny...my DM arranges such things frequently... I used to do the same to my players when I DM'ed. Much to their chagrin, of course. :) In fact, it only really inconvenienced the non-mystic PCs... which was, actually, most of them. The mystic's player always thumbed his nose at the others. For my part, I tend to play PCs who wear little or no armor at all. Just a personal preference. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:58:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >I've always wanted to play a hero that wears clothes with no armor. I think it just looks better than always wearing armor. I don't believe it was common practice to wear it unless you were going into battle. And wouldn't it be cumbersome in dank, smelling dungeons not to mention just walking through town or at a tavern? Maybe it adds to the AC but wouldn't it also cut the dexterity bonus down a little? I've no better system for protection (baring the ring and bracer protection) but it just seems like armor may protect someone from a blow but also makes it easier to be hit. As I mentioned in an earlier response, my own tendency is to play PCs with little or no armor. I know that, at least for my part, I tend to reduce the amount of armor on *anyone* while DMing. The PCs can wear armor if they want, but my adventures tend to the city/town intrigue types of adventures, and the PCs will get very odd looks if constantly armored. And as long as you allow them the option of using special maneuvers, etc (weapon mastery and abilities, skills, or specialization options for AD&D) it helps to defray the lower AC in combats, not to mention making them somewhat more colorful. On the obverse, though, this is a fantasy world, and so heroes walking around clad in armor all day long shouldn't be considered that unreasonable. No more so than, say, casting magical spells. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 14:17:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In/out of print? On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >At 09:29 AM 3/6/98 +0100, you wrote: >>Dave Arneson (DDA1, DDA2, DDA3) >I always found it interesting that he only did these three. Is it my imagination or did these three seem to be leading somewhere? I think they were all leading somewhere- specifically to the foundation of a strong and independent nation. Though Arneson didn't co-write DA4, I think it still ranks up with DA1 and 3 for its strong presentation of the history of part of the ancient realms around Blackmoor, and its rich detail in describing the wilderness and civilized regions of the Duchy of Ten. >>Douglas Niles (B5, X3, CM1, CM3) >X3 is arguably one of the best modules. At the time it lended an incredible amount of setting detail to an area that had only a 1 paragraph blurb. Awesome city with political intrigue. The very first D&D adventure I ever played, and definitely one of the very best created. I still remember skulking through the barracks with the thief Quillan Lockpicker; facing off against the invulnerable Xanathon and ducking out the nearest window when he turned on us. And as you mention, the city description is excellent. >>Merle Rasmussen (X6, X9 -the Savage Coast region is his original idea) >Not only X9, but there was a Dungeon magazine adventure called "Tortles of the Purple Sage" wherein he detailed the areas north of the Savage coast. The module covers areas not covered by the RC/SC boxed set or the Princess Ark articles. The module or the adventure in Dungeon? As I recall, X9 itself covers the exact same territory that Bruce covered with the Princess Ark, but not in nearly as much colorful detail. (Not a slam on Mr. Rasmussen- he only had one 28 or so page module, whereas Bruce had many articles.) >>Stephen Bourne (X11, X13) >X13 is pretty awesome. But I don't have X11. Anyone have an opinion on it? X11 is pretty darn good, too. It actually precedes the events in X13, and provides us with the first ever look at the nation of Wendar, and the conflicts between Wendar and the northern regions of Denagoth. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 18:39:04 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - More on AD&D Immortals Greetings! In my continuing struggles to convert the Immortals to AD&D, I've come up with this list of how the levels of the Immortals compare to AD&D powers. For those interested, look ove it and let me know your thought and for those not, sorry for the time waste. I probably decrease Immortals whose area of concern is very small to reflect the number of worshippers and increase those with a larger area. Imm. Lvl. AD&D Lvl. - ---------- ------------------ Initiate Demipower Temporal Demipower Celestial Lesser Power Empyreal Intermediate Power Eternal Intermediate Power Hierarch Greater Power _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:24:42 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Drakes everywhere In a message dated 98-03-06 03:51:16 EST, dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it writes: >1) can drakes assume forms of different sexes? I allow my player to have a mmale wooddrake who can turn into a female elf and a male halfling Until you raised the question I would have assumed that Drakes had a definite gender -- all three forms were male or all three female. But they are chaotic so -- why not? >2) Are drakes sexuate beings? I would assume that they can mate and reproduce, albeit rather slowly. >3) How do drakes view their relationships with different humanoids of different sexes? I do rule that the drake has a set of mind appropriate to that of the form he chooses: if he's a male he'll like females and vice versa; the race doesn't count that much, however. Or you could say a drake is bisexual.. could be? I suppose so -- although when I last ran a Mystara campaign I decided because of things I had heard about the campaign one of the player characters came from that homosexuality (and by extension bisexuality) was literally an unthinkable concept in Mystara -- when that character mentioned such things, he got a very puzzled look from native Mystarans. There is no canonical basis for this decision, but I didn't have to alter any available material to conform to that house rule. But I would assume that Drakes can engage in any acts that a chaotic Human can.... >4) Can a shapechanged drake get pregnant? If so what happens if he turns into normal form or into another? I rule that as long as he remains shapechanged he lives exactly as that lifeform, so he can have babies if he remains an elfin for enough months. If he shapechanges during the pregnancy, >he loses the baby. What kind of baby will be born is highly debatable.. I would probably rule that the Drake who gets pregnant would be unable to change form as long as she remains pregnant. I would definitely enforce that rule if the Drake had male forms. By the way, in my own campaign a male mandrake married a female sidhe. Their son was a (sterile) pooka, whose animal form was that of a mule. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 00:13:20 -0500 From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - More on AD&D Immortals Galwylin wrote: >Greetings! >In my continuing struggles to convert the Immortals to AD&D, I've come up with this list of how the levels of the Immortals compare to AD&D powers. For those interested, look ove it and let me know your thought and for those not, sorry for the time waste. I probably decrease Immortals whose area of concern is very small to reflect the number of worshippers and increase those with a larger area. >Imm. Lvl. AD&D Lvl. >---------- ------------------ >Initiate Demipower >Temporal Demipower >Celestial Lesser Power >Empyreal Intermediate Power >Eternal Intermediate Power >Hierarch Greater Power I think I would consider Temporals to be Lesser Powers, with only Initiates being equivalent to a Demipower. However, I must admit that I don't have any real reason for doing so beyond instinct. I think what you have works well, otherwise. It's about what I've always considered things to be like in my own campaign. Michael. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #149 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, March 7 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 150 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? [MYSTARA] - Old Timers Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Timers - Carl Sargent Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers [MYSTARA] - Moon Cycles Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - An Adventure Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:28:27 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels In a message dated 98-03-06 13:04:00 EST, Håvard writes: << On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, CRlPTONITE wrote: >I believe this was mentioned in the past but I dont remember if an answer was >ever given or if there is just no answer. What language or languages does the name Jaggar von Drachenfels come from? And what do the words mean? I remember that thread. It was speculated that Jaggar was german-like, similar to the word jaeger which means hunter. "von Drachenfels" is definately german. von meaning of, and I belive Drachenfels means Dragonmountain.>> Yes there was some discussion of this not too long ago. One thing that was not discussed was the "von". IIRC the "von" and "Von" in a name has two different meanings. The capitalized "V" meaning royalty while the lower case "v" denotes a aristocratic family, but not necessarily of nobility. If this is the case, then it would be interesting why Prince Jaggar is of the lower case "von" instead of the more appropriate "Von". Perhaps our German List members could expand upon that. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:09:54 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers In a message dated 98-03-06 15:49:16 EST, bjm10 wrote: <However, a wheel lock type firearm is easy to describe. The firing mechanism >is basically internal. A key type wrech is used to turn a nut on the side to <> Actually the early guns wheels were for the most part enclosed, if not withing the gun itself, then a protective cover plate. Usually just a small portion was exposed for the necessity of making contact with the flint and channeling the sparks to the flash pan. And BTW the flint was for the most part stationary. With the wheel spinning there was no need for the moving hammer as displayed in a traditional flintlock. The flints were usually held in place via a screw like vise. Any blackpowder gun can fire as long its load and firing mechanism is dry. Whether it gets dampened by rain, humidity, or a spill the effect is the same; misfire. What was the achilles heel of the locks were that they used a flash pan to prime the load in the barrel. >This firing mechanism was complicated and required a watch maker's skills to >fix. The key had a habit of getting lost in the midst of battle. The flint (or >more correctly soft steel) had a habit of wearing badly (no spark). Powder << The flint was never mild steel. The flint was always flint. The problem is that the flint was often of low quality. A flintlock is less sensitive to low-quality flints than is a wheellock, since the flinty's firing mechanism has less wear per shot.>> First off, do not ever say "never" in regards to anything. The problems with the flint quality was one such reason for the use of other spark agents. It was either the Swiss or the Dutch that tried steel and iron striking elements. One of the problems discovered was that the means often caused the wheel to get "gummed up" with residue from the softer metal. Another was that the soft metals wore too quickly, making the gunner constantly having to adjust the tension of the striker to the wheel. Which was a task since for every second a gunner spent working on his weapon, the enemy closed on him a yard more. But yes you are correct in the flint capability of flintlocks. Not only could the flint quality play little in regards. But a misfire could be easily fixed by recocking the hammer. True sometimes the gunner had to "tweak" the flint with a knife to make an even contact. This flexibilty of the flint made the flintlock an added boon to the developement of the gun. But it was only with the developement of percussion caps and encapsulated ammo that the firearm came to be a complete weapon. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:07:12 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Whats the opinion on elves with beards on ths list? Elves of Alfheim artwork seems to indicate that some elves may grow beards. However, this in contary to the general conception of Elves in standard fantasy. I have been considering using elves with beards just to make Mystara more different. What do the rest of you think? Sincerly Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:22:14 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? >From: Håvard Rønne Faanes >Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? >Whats the opinion on elves with beards on ths list? ... >What do the rest of you think? Well, this would be a hook to the discussion about 1/2-Elves, 1/4-Elves and the like. I would say that Elves with beards would represent the influence of human genes like the typical HE attitude of "being an Elf with a beard". On the other hand the Elves living side by side with humans could have "adopted" the genes for growing a beard. This is very theoretical but you can always come across some changes in nature due to changes in the accustomed surroundings. Like a grass-eating animal gets a "tougher hide"-tongue if the grass is becoming harder (see the kangoroos!). Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 08:52:07 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? At 03:07 PM 3/7/98 +0100, you wrote: >Whats the opinion on elves with beards on ths list? Elves of Alfheim artwork seems to indicate that some elves may grow beards. However, this in contary to the general conception of Elves in standard fantasy. I have been considering using elves with beards just to make Mystara more different. What do the rest of you think? I dunno. I'm kinda used to elves not having beards. Everytime I see pointed ears and beards, I think half-elf. If you have them with beards, what shaving method do they use that gives the ones without such a clean shave? I'd really like that secret ;> _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 08:56:39 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? At 03:22 PM 3/7/98 +0000, you wrote: >Well, this would be a hook to the discussion about 1/2-Elves, 1/4-Elves and the like. >I would say that Elves with beards would represent the influence of human genes like the typical HE attitude of "being an Elf with a beard". >On the other hand the Elves living side by side with humans could have "adopted" the genes for growing a beard. This is very theoretical but you can always come across some changes in nature due to changes in the accustomed surroundings. Like a grass-eating animal gets a "tougher hide"-tongue if the grass is becoming harder (see the kangoroos!). Not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you saying elves could pick up the ability to grow one just by living close to humans or by the mingling of blood? You analogy suggests a mingling of blood. If it's the living with humans that does it then dwarves could end up not being able to grow beards from living close with elves that can't. Hmm.. maybe that's why dwarves and elves don't get along. _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:49:50 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? In a message dated 98-03-07 09:25:02 EST, you write: << Whats the opinion on elves with beards on ths list? Elves of Alfheim artwork seems to indicate that some elves may grow beards. However, this in contary to the general conception of Elves in standard fantasy. I have been considering using elves with beards just to make Mystara more different. What do the rest of you think? Sincerly Håvard >> Personally, I do not like the idea of elves with beards. That is younger elves that are more prone to venture out into the world of man. A beard would make it easier for an elf to take on a more human appearance and blend. IMC I often play upon elven/human relations. I also imagine a beard would be seen as unkempt by elves. Not only that but it would mask the stereotypical elven attractiveness. If beards are kept,then I imagine that they would be neatly trimmed and rather short in length. Now older elves more content with living a slower paced life could sport beards. Perhaps as a sign of maturity and status. IIRC Alexander of Macedonia as well as the Greeks and Romans disdained wearing beards when acting in a military occupation. IIRC the chance of an opponent grabbing you by your whiskers was too great. I think that it was not until Nero or some later Emperor that beards were seen on Roman Troops. And even then, they were short. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:56:50 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? In a message dated 98-03-07 09:36:59 EST, you write: << Well, this would be a hook to the discussion about 1/2-Elves, 1/4-Elves and the like. I would say that Elves with beards would represent the influence of human genes like the typical HE attitude of "being an Elf with a beard". >> Funny you bring that up. My HE PC/NPC Allstrick often sported a beard and mustache. Especially when travelling in the northern areas of Brun. Allstrick was also prone to periods where he did not want people to see he was of elven blood so the beard was useful. When elves were in one of his parties they found his having to shave quite humorous. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:59:07 EST From: Ambreville Subject: [MYSTARA] - Old Timers Since you asked... Frank Mentzer: still in Lake Geneva, running conventions I think (I'm not sure what Frank's doing these days) Dave Arneson: still in the game business. The last time I spoke with him (last spring) he told me about a trip he made to Brazil where he had been invited by local gaming groups or distributors. He had a great time, but got sick and had to fly back home. Aaron Allston: still in Austin TX, freelancing Bruce Heard: now in IIlinois, working for a company called US Web, and trying to free up some time for some occasional freelance! I think the Immortals are plotting to move me down to the Hollow World... (NO, NOT THE HOLLOW WORLD!) Ken Rolston: on the east coast, freelancing (???) His relationship with TSR as a freelancer goes way back. Anne Gray McCready: she left TSR back in 80's after marrying and having a baby. Did some freelance for TSR, but then I lost sight of her. I think she's still doing freelance outside of the gaming industry. Steve Perrin: no idea. Probably still on the west coast, freelancing Ed Greenwood: up in Ontario, sharing his time between family, job at the library, and freelance with TSR (essentially for FR). Deborah Christian: not sure. I lost contact several years ago. The last I heard she had gotten a literary agent, so she may still be writing books on the west coast. Scott Haring: did freelance for TSR, worked some time for TSR in Lake Geneva, left for TSR-west coast, and returned to Austin TX after TSR-west went under. I met him last summer at GenCon, and he was working for SJG, pretty much doing there what I had been doing at TSR. Small world. William W. Connors: still with TSR, working out of Lake Geneva, essentially on Ravenloft. Jim Bambra: I think he moved from the UK to the US after getting married here. Carl Sargent: if anyone knows his whereabouts, please let me know. He was a faithful and prolific freelancer several years ago, and suddenly "disappeared" from my radar screen without a warning. Still no clue what happened. John Nephew : the man at Atlas Games, and also a long time freelancer with TSR. Ann Dupuis: the lady at Ghostgames, and also a long time freelancer with TSR. Tom Moldvay: he wrote all of his modules for TSR before I even was employed there. All of his stuff predates the very name "Mystara" which I came up with several years later. We never actually worked together, except once, which proved to be an unfortunate experience. I didn't like his stuff. He didn't like me. Oh well! David Cook: boy, that's about as "old" as "timer" gets. His modules for Mystara were published shortly after my arrival at TSR. We kinda designed some of Mystara around and on top of his material. he eventually got fed up with TSR's internal bologna and left to work for a computer company on the east coast. They were pretty shaky finacially, so he left for another one on the west coast where he seems to be doing fine now. Douglas Niles: still in the Lake Geneva area, writing novels. I think he did really well -- staying in his native Wisconsin with his wife and the kids, living in a nice home lost in the woods, away from the hustle-bustle of the local towns. He still hosts summer volleyball games and barbecue parties around the pool for many of the old timers who remained in the midwest. Graeme Morris: no idea. I think he's still in the UK. Merle Rasmussen: after his time at TSR, Merle returned back home in IA, where he runs a hobby store in Council Bluffs (or Des Moines) -- not sure. Allen Varney: Freelanced, worked for Wizards, didn't like it, returned back to Austin and continued freelancing. Stephen Bourne: Hey, he was my first freelancer at TSR! Unfortunately, at some point he was trying to adapt Mystara to fit his creations (novels he was working on), which didn't work too well (and would have eventually created a legal problem with the company). He got frustrated and eventually left. Too bad, he had some neat ideas. Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:52:59 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #150 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: c479d7541454080e14662f7d57d3992a Tim Beach: Worked at TSR, sorta, then left to work for Wizards, sorta. He didn't remain with Wizards, but stayed in Seattle. Not sure what he's doing now. Bruce Nesmith: left TSR to work for a computer game company on the east coast. He's still there I think, doing just fine. Michael Dobson: He once headed the creative staff at TSR. Left TSR for his native Baltimore. I heard he was back in the Chicago area lately. He's in the professional seminars business now. Paul Jacquays: he was one of my early freelancers, provided art for TSR, joined the art staff at TSR, coordinated the art staff at TSR, then got fed up with TSR's bologna and left. He's now with the folks that did Quake and doing well there. Skip Williams: still with TSR, in Seattle. I guess he qualifies as "really old guard" (not in a demeaning way). :) Hope this answers some questions. Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:37:35 -0500 From: "DJ Sahlas" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels >I believe this was mentioned in the past but I dont remember if an answer was ever given or if there is just no answer. WWhat language or languages does the name Jaggar von Drachenfels come from? And what do the words mean? Bruce, are you chuckling? Those of you who have read "Elric at the End of Time" by Michael Moorcock may recall that some of the characters include "Jherek" Carnelian, "Brannart Morphail", and Lord "Jagged" of Canaria. I wonder what connection this story and these names have with the Princes of Glantri? Or should we ask Mike Dobson? (X10 had the names of a few princes on the military counters for Glantri, and I think this was the first mention of these princes in a published source). Jim Sahlas *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:35:55 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? At 08:56 AM 3/7/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 03:22 PM 3/7/98 +0000, you wrote: >>Well, this would be a hook to the discussion about 1/2-Elves, 1/4-Elves and the like. >>I would say that Elves with beards would represent the influence of human genes like the typical HE attitude of "being an Elf with a beard". >>On the other hand the Elves living side by side with humans could have "adopted" the genes for growing a beard. This is very theoretical but you can always come across some changes in nature due to changes in the accustomed surroundings. Like a grass-eating animal gets a "tougher hide"-tongue if the grass is becoming harder (see the kangoroos!). >Not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you saying elves could pick up the ability to grow one just by living close to humans or by the mingling of blood? You analogy suggests a mingling of blood. If it's the living with humans that does it then dwarves could end up not being able to grow beards from living close with elves that can't. Hmm.. maybe that's why dwarves and elves don't get along. This is actually stated in the respective gazzetteers. That dwarves don't have to grow beards (especially women) and elves can. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:36:33 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? At 08:52 AM 3/7/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 03:07 PM 3/7/98 +0100, you wrote: >>Whats the opinion on elves with beards on ths list? Elves of Alfheim artwork seems to indicate that some elves may grow beards. However, this in contary to the general conception of Elves in standard fantasy. I have been considering using elves with beards just to make Mystara more different. What do the rest of you think? >I dunno. I'm kinda used to elves not having beards. Everytime I see pointed ears and beards, I think half-elf. If you have them with beards, what shaving method do they use that gives the ones without such a clean shave? I'd really like that secret ;> Perhaps elves can choose whether or not to grow their beards... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:58:35 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Timers - Carl Sargent Nice post, Bruce. It's always interesting to see what the Old Timer designers are doing, especially for us Old Timer players... Ambreville meandered fecklessly... >Carl Sargent: if anyone knows his whereabouts, please let me know. He was a >faithful and prolific freelancer several years ago, and suddenly "disappeared" >from my radar screen without a warning. Still no clue what happened. John Nephew : the man at Atlas Games, and also a long time freelancer with >TSR. I might be able to shed a wee bit of light. Last I heard Carl was doing a lot of freelance work for FASA's Earthdawn setting. He seemd to kinda take the setting over, with a lot of products for it having his name on them. Don't know if he is still at it. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:01:16 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers << IMC I consider Al-Kalim to be the *only* Immortal worshipped by Ylari. Gives them more style that way, makes them more unique, rather than being just another polytheistic country. I did, however, make a list of Immortals who were worshipped by Ylari before Al-Kalim, as well as their reactions to his takeover. >> I think that they worship Protius while Al-Kalim is "the Prophet". Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:01:15 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Moon Cycles << This calender is in PDF format and includes moon phases [1] and the solstices and equinoxes [2]. Each date has plenty of space for the GM to jot down notes and such. >> Has anynody noticed that the moon cycle calendar in PC4 (Night Howlers) is complete nonsense? Jamuga Khan "Discuss now." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:01:13 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels << I believe this was mentioned in the past but I dont remember if an answer was ever given or if there is just no answer. What language or languages does the name Jaggar von Drachenfels come from? And what do the words mean? --- -- --Criptonite >> "Von Drachenfels" is German style title of nobility and means "of Dragonsrock". Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:20:45 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels << Yes there was some discussion of this not too long ago. One thing that was not discussed was the "von". IIRC the "von" and "Von" in a name has two different meanings. The capitalized "V" meaning royalty while the lower case "v" denotes a aristocratic family, but not necessarily of nobility. If this is the case, then it would be interesting why Prince Jaggar is of the lower case "von" instead of the more appropriate "Von". Perhaps our German List members could expand upon that. Alex >> Of course! Unfortunately a "Von" only means that it stands at the beginning of a sentence. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:44:20 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] >Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Seriously though, the situation of PCs always having armor on is mundane. I'm not saying that PCs ALWAYS where armor, but why do most encounters tend to have the PCs fully armed and armored? Just once I'd like to see a PC surprised in the bath. Now THAT'S and encounter. In the Milenian Scepter adventure for the HW there is just such an encounter. The PC's go to a bath house for a secret meeting and just as they are getting ready to leave the bath chamber a group of armed soldiers enter. One of the NPC's knows that to surrender is death so he starts the fight :) (you shoulda seen the expresions on my players faces) steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:05:15 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - An Adventure On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Lorenzo wrote: >4. Any other thing you would like to say I've got a simular thing going on....My pc's are responsible for bringing the sun wights to the Hollow World. (aka..the HW boxed set adventure) Now i've got em on a quest to find an artifact that will help them defeat this growing menace. The artifact they seak is Ixion's Wrath. To make this fun i made a 5 level dungeon that they are crawling through and searching for the fabled weapon. steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:13:55 +0000 From: wizzard@mail.intcom.de Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? >From: Galwylin >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? >>On the other hand the Elves living side by side with humans could have "adopted" the genes for growing a beard. This is very theoretical but you can always come across some changes in nature due to changes in the accustomed surroundings. ..... >Not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you saying elves could pick up the ability to grow one just by living close to humans or by the mingling of blood? You analogy suggests a mingling of blood. I think the poiint of mingling with blood is self-explanatory and has already been discussed in our HE-debate. I thought of a weird thing. Nature always changes his subjects to their best performance, but sometimes it also happens on sheer accident. In the wildlife if their surroundings chance the spezies also changes by time to accustome to the new situation. It is like a only the best fitting survive. Why not ? An Elf is born with a gene to grow a beard and this gene has proofen to be dominent. I know it´s weird but it is like a chaos-factor. Totally irrational but interesting. Wizzard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:25:36 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels In a message dated 98-03-07 13:34:14 EST, JKhan writes: >Yes there was some discussion of this not too long ago. One thing that was not >discussed was the "von". IIRC the "von" and "Von" in a name has two different meanings. The capitalized "V" meaning royalty while the lower case "v" denotes >a aristocratic family, but not necessarily of nobility. If this is the case, then it would be interesting why Prince Jaggar is of the lower case "von" instead of the more appropriate "Von". >Perhaps our German List members could expand upon that. >Alex <> Thanks Khan. I wasn't sure about it. Still, why is it that certain German names use a capitalized von while others use a lower case one? Or is that just a fluke from to English translations? The reason I ask is that the variation is seen in many WW1 and WW2 reference materials. Sort of like spelling Goring also as Goering. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jan 1980 16:47:38 GMT From: Lyndon@pobox.com (Lyndon Baugh) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? Actually the tradition that Elves are beardless and/or with pointy ears is very recent. I don't see much evidence of it before D&D and Elfquest. A quick check at a local library (price is right), of: In Fairyland, Richard Doyle 1870 (not a typo, over 120 years old) is, while horrible cutesy, clear that various fey folks ears and beards were not particularly different than anyone else's. Nancy Arrowsmit's A FIELD GUIDE THE LITTLE PEOPLE, c. 1977 also doesn't have any weird ears or hair preferences on Elves, (there are various anatomical differences in "dark elves" and "dusky elves." Some bearded people that we would call Dwarves are lumped in with "dark elves." My favorite of these so far is the Quiet Folk (Stille Volk) "The Quiet Folk give gifts of staggering generosity to their favorites or those who have served as judge in one of their many arguments, helped a female dwarf in childbirth, or provided a hall or their wedding feasts." They have magical powers over bread-baking, beer-brewing, spinning, weaving, and smithing. " Time Life's FAIREIS AND ELVES, 1984 has various mustaches and bearded among both humans and elves ... the majority of both are clean shaven. While Elfquest and D&D were both out be then, the imagry/steoreotypes had not spread into general culture. I don't have a description on hand for really old Elven lore, like the mention Poul Anderson made in THE BROKEN SWORD, that the Vikings took the dragon-headed figures off their boats before sailing home so as to not offend the elves ... In other words the Elves were something that scared Vikings. Tolkien's elves are distinguished (to mortal sight at least) as much by grace as by obvious facial features. While I get the impression they were clean-shaven, that might well be cultural. I would have to spend more time than the 15 minutes I spent today to really thoroughly research the subject. My copies of Shakespeare are boxed up at the moment (I know where they are to within 12 feet ...) but rereading Midsummer Night's Dream to see if there is any good description of Oberon's features might be fun. Anyway, if you are willing to dip into the past thousands of years of history, and not limit yourself to TSR publications, magnificently bearded elves should certainly be possible. Lyndon@pobox.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #150 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, March 8 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 151 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Moon Cycles Re: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Moon Cycles Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Moon Cycles Re: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - What did you do during WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels [MYSTARA] - Old Timers, Carl Sargent [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The MML Pages Has Been Updated! New Links Section! [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Get a Link to Your Mystara Page on the MML Home Page! [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Register With the MML Directory! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:46:51 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Moon Cycles In a message dated 98-03-07 13:15:37 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: >Has anynody noticed that the moon cycle calendar iin PC4 (Night Howlers) is complete nonsense? Yes, I noticed a similar problem on the trail maps (carried over into the PWAs, where it was so tied to a critical event that it could no longer be ignored). The conclusion I reached is that we had discovered the time that it takes an invisible moon to orbit Mystara -- three months. The displacement of Matera from its proper position in the sky is the result of optical distortion caused by that invisible moon. Since Matera orbits Mystara every 3 1/2 days, it cannot be the invisible moon in question. Thus, Mystara must have a third moon that remains undiscovered. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:59:19 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? In a message dated 98-03-07 17:07:11 EST, Lyndon@pobox.com writes: >Actually the tradition that Elves are beardless and/or with pointy eears is very recent. I don't see much evidence of it before D&D and Elfquest. And even Elfquest included a few Elves with beards. I have my own theory about Elven beards -- no full-blooded Elf can grow a beard unless he is male and at least 100+ years of age (i.e., an adult). That is the same rule that would apply for other races, but the difference is that many Elf adventurers from Mystara are below that age. Has anyone thought of the implications of the possibility that Elven adventurers may not have reached puberty yet? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:11:33 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels DJ Sahlas pontificated: >Or should we ask Mike Dobson? (X10 had the names of a few princes on the military counters for Glantri, and I think this was the first mention of these princes in a published source). I believe it was. However, the personalities of the prince and princess described in the module changed quite a bit when Gaz 3 came out. John Yu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:21:39 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Stephen Dolan pontificated: >>Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >>Seriously though, the situation of PCs always having armor on is mundane. I'm not saying that PCs ALWAYS where armor, but why do most encounters tend to have the PCs fully armed and armored? Just once I'd like to see a PC surprised in the bath. Now THAT'S and encounter. >In the Milenian Scepter adventure for the HW there is just such an encounter. The PC's go to a bath house for a secret meeting and just as they are getting ready to leave the bath chamber a group of armed soldiers enter. One of the NPC's knows that to surrender is death so he starts the fight :) (you shoulda seen the expresions on my players faces) I didn't wrote the first passage... the grammer is too good :). Actually, even back in the red box, there was an adventure hook, where the PCs are just having lunch in Threshold when a purple worm popped out. It said the PC shouldn't be in armor and light on other equipments. I belielve also in the red box, where it said walking around the town in armor, while not prohibit in most places, will draw alot of attention from town guards, etc. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:27:26 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Moon Cycles Kaviyd pontificated: >Since Matera orbits Mystara every 3 1/2 days, it cannot be the invisible moon in question. Thus, Mystara must have a third moon that remains undiscovered. How about just say the sky shield distort the moon visual position weirdly? It is a bit more simpler than add another moon. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:42:14 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] >Maybe it adds to the AC but wouldn't >it also cut the dexterity bonus down a little? I've no better system for protection (baring the ring and bracer protection) but it just seems like armor may protect someone from a blow but also makes it easier to be hit. Maybe what's needed is a revised AC chart for unarmored characters: DEX 3 AC 10 DEX 4-5 AC 9 DEX 6-8 AC 8 DEX 9-12 AC 7 DEX 13-15 AC 6 DEX 16-17 AC 5 DEX 18 AC 4 This chart only applies when unarmored; armored characters use the AC value of the armor instead. However I'd still let a shield add to AC, though I'd let a cloak or makeshift shield serve this prupose too. This means that only clumsy people gain benefit from leather armor, and at DEX 16+ even chain mail gives no advantage (but it still helps most people). This also brings PCs in line with most humanoid ACs. Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:42:13 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? >Whats the opinion on elves with beards on ths list? I prefer elves with beards and without pointy ears. They look a lot like humans, other than hair/eye color and bone structure. I always saw pointed ears as implying a kinship with beasts, which is why I got rid of them. For those who prefer traditional elves, an important question is *can* they grow beards? Some varieties of human males grow little or no facial hair. I personally can only grow a mustache and goatee, but grow no sideburns or cheek hair. In fact, all the males in my family only grow partial facial hair, though it varies from person to person. If elves cannot grow beards, then maybe half elves can grow partial beards: one half-elf can grow lamb-chops but no beard, another grows a beard but no mustache, etc. One aspect of this is that if all males grow beards, it becomes much more difficult for a man to impersonate a woman, or vice-versa, at least without magical disguises. Beardless elves might be seen by other bearded races as effeminate, simply because they look like women. As to attractiveness of facial hair, our modern fascination with clean shaven faces is probably due to our worship of youthfulness -- though this is odd, since only prepubescent boys grow no hair. In some cultures a luxuriant beard would be seen as very attractive. Such styles tend to change over time as well. I did read somewhere that the ancient egyptians considered body hair to be vulgar and shaved their *entire* bodies (both men and women). I prefer bearded warriors and elves in my fantasy worlds just to make them seem different and exotic (by modern western standards)... but a race of bald elves might be interesting too. FWIW, elves in GURPS have beards (or at least they do in Yrth). Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:15:38 EST From: Dleggend Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map I have scanned a hand drawn map of Thyatis that I made and I posted it on my webpage. It makes a good player's map. When I have time I will improve the map electronically and I will inform you Ignore the one inch= 64 miles, I will fix that. Note don't view with aol web browser, use internet explorier or netscape. I also have a bmp file of the map that looks much better just email me if you want it. (about 880 kb in size zipped) Dleggend@aol.com http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:14:54 EST From: Dleggend Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map I just improved the color of the map. Dleggend@aol.com http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:06:44 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels DJ Sahlas wrote: >>I believe this was mentioned in the past but I dont remember if an answer wwas ever given or if there is just no answer. WWWhat language or languages does the name Jaggar von Drachenfels come from? And what do the words mean? : >Those of you who have read "Elric at the End of Time" by Michael Moorcock may recall that some of the characters include "Jherek" Carnelian, "Brannart Morphail", and Lord "Jagged" of Canaria. I wonder what connection this story and these names have with the Princes of Glantri? My two kopecs, not so humbly offered, 3;)> ... is Jaggar probably came from Mick Jaggar of the Rolling Stones. I think you're all putting too much analysis into this matter. 3:)> Kinda like Lornce N'Joizee from the Isle of Dawn. That wouldn't have come from a map of New Jersey, would it? 3:D> -- Stonelight, in Joizee. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:19:03 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers JamugaKhan wrote: >Somebody else wrote: >>IMC I consider Al-Kalim to be the *only* Immortal worshipped by Ylari. Gives them more style that way, makes them more unique, rather than being just another polytheistic country. I did, however, make a list of Immortals who were worshipped by Ylari before Al-Kalim, as well as their reactions to his takeover. >I think that they worship Protius while Al-Kalim is "the Prophet". I agree, the "Old Man of the Sea" as the Ylari called Protius, played a major role in Al-Kalim's ascension, but I don't think either is the subject of worship. However, I would classify Ylaruam as "Monotheistic by Charisma," to use the PHBR3,_Complete Book of Priests_, categorization. IMC, most Ylari (tho there are always 'radicals') are followers or specialty Priests of the Eternal Truth. As related in the Nameh and discovered by Al-Kalim, it is the beliefs that my Ylari worship, not specifically the Immortal(s). The Eternal Truth is also strong in the Kingdom of Ierendi, where one could see Protius having a more significant role. -- Stonelight *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:29:03 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Actually, even back in the red box, there was an adventure hook, where the PCs are just having lunch in Threshold when a purple worm popped out. It said the PC shouldn't be in armor and light on other equipments. Yes, I remember that, it was in the blue book (Expert Rulebook). That's where the Purple Worm was introduced, and I remember our DM having used that adventure idea. >where it >said walking around the town in armor, while not prohibit in most places, will draw alot of attention from town guards, etc. Grand Duchy gazetteer (GAZ1) definately. Also, a similar statement is made in the Darokin gazetteer (GAZ11?). -- Stonelight *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:21:08 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] At 03:42 PM 3/7/98 +0000, you wrote: >Maybe what's needed is a revised AC chart for unarmored characters: DEX 3 AC 10 >DEX 4-5 AC 9 >DEX 6-8 AC 8 >DEX 9-12 AC 7 >DEX 13-15 AC 6 >DEX 16-17 AC 5 >DEX 18 AC 4 >This chart only applies when unarmored; armored characters use the AC value of the armor instead. However I'd still let a shield add to AC, though I'd let a cloak or makeshift shield serve this prupose too. This means that only clumsy people gain benefit from leather armor, and at DEX 16+ even chain mail gives no advantage (but it still helps most people). This also brings PCs in line with most humanoid ACs. I believe I like this. It makes dexterity more important and gives armor the plus/minus values I would think make more sense and only goes two points above the AD&D rules making it not that far fetched. Thanks for the input! _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:29:43 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #151 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: f60e9a4d1759c28357d2eada3fe127b7 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:36:39 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Moon Cycles In a message dated 98-03-07 18:39:37 EST, scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu writes: >How about just say the sky shield distort the moon visual position wweirdly? It is a bit more simpler than add another moon. That might work -- but the effect has to be one that only operates on objects that are relatively close to Mystara. Note that more distant bodies such as the sun and the stars are not affected by this optical distortion. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 00:05:41 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? At 05:59 PM 3/7/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-07 17:07:11 EST, Lyndon@pobox.com writes: >>Actually the tradition that Elves are beardless and/or with pointy eeears is very recent. I don't see much evidence of it before D&D and Elfquest. >And even Elfquest included a few Elves with beards. >I have my own theory about Elven beards -- no full-blooded Elf can grow a beard unless he is male and at least 100+ years of age (i.e., an adult). That is the same rule that would apply for other races, but the difference is that many Elf adventurers from Mystara are below that age. Has anyone thought of the implications of the possibility that Elven adventurers may not have reached puberty yet? The TRUE reason there are no half elves in Mystara! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:44:13 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? I discovered earlier that it is already difficult to obtain copies of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. Now I am inquiring -- how difficult is it to get a copy of _Wrath of the Immortals_ ? The reason that I am asking is that I have some interesting ideas for adapting the Mystara setting to AD&D (or vice versa) -- but they depend rather heavily on the player having access to the WotI boxed set. Please note that I am not looking for a copy of that boxed set myself -- I already have a copy. And I am not looking to get rid of it either, so please do not ask me to sell it to you. My real goal is this -- assuming that obtaining a copy of WotI is not a problem for most newbies to Mystara, I intend to set up a Web page giving some AD&D rules variants that should make it easy for somebody who has access to WotI and most AD&D rules supplements to run a Mystara campaign in a way that is not too seriously distorted from the way those of us who still play or remember D&D would handle it. So -- should I attempt to carry out this plan, or is WotI less accessible even than the D&D Rules Cyclopedia? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:47:34 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? In a message dated 98-03-08 01:57:01 EST, you write: << So -- should I attempt to carry out this plan, or is WotI less accessible even than the D&D Rules Cyclopedia?>> Down here in my area The RC is very difficult to find. I have checked with most, if not all, businesses that could get the RC, new or used. The local sources are supposed to keep an eye open for the RC for me. I am one of the few Mystara fans around here so I am in good shape. Even online services are hard pressed to have the RC. Dragons Trove and Hit Pointe rarely have them. In fact, HP is the only that I have seen to have one in its inventory and its stay was breif (someone beat me to it). WotI was for me pretty easy to get. I bought it straight off the shelf at a hobby shop. I have not seen it since. However, it is fairly easy to get online. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:56:02 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Elves with beards? In a message dated 98-03-07 18:13:40 EST, Kaviyd writes: << I have my own theory about Elven beards -- no full-blooded Elf can grow a beard unless he is male and at least 100+ years of age (i.e., an adult). That is the same rule that would apply for other races, but the difference is that many Elf adventurers from Mystara are below that age. Has anyone thought of the implications of the possibility that Elven adventurers may not have reached puberty yet? >> That is actually a pretty good theory. A physucally mature elf. But not being actually sexually mature until later. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 02:28:16 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? At 01:44 AM 3/8/98 EST, you wrote: >So -- should I attempt to carry out this plan, or is WotI less accessible even than the D&D Rules Cyclopedia? I say go for it. I'm currently putting the Immortals in F&A format and that's going to be drawing heavily from TSR materials. I'd love to see your ideas about the conversion. _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 04:59:23 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What did you do during WotI? "Daddy...what did you do during the Great War?" asked the child playing so candidly in front of the hearth. Since the Wrath of the Immortals draws so much attention, I was wondering what each of you did in your campaigns. I know that everyone has not ran the WotI. I myself did not actively campaign as described in the box. My gaming group dispersed before we could actually play it. However, the old gang did come up with scenarios to fill out the timeline, just in case we ever got around to reforming to play once again. We did take the precaution of limiting our own involvement. For the most part, the old gangs PCs had left the main group and located themselves elsewhere. I have two PCs histories that I can lay my hands on now. And there are two others that I am waiting on via email. I'll post them as sonn as I can. So let us share our experiences during this tramatic period. Those that have not used the period may see an alternative means to involve themselves in the big picture. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:17:10 -0000 From: "Alan Jones" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? In the UK getting hold of ANY Mystara items in just about impossible. The big retailers of Role Playing games in London e.g. Virgin stock just AD&D (which may include a bit of Mystara backstock such as the Glantri and Karameikos boxed sets). The independent retailers (such as the excellent Orc's Nest) are pretty much the same. Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon / Thoria Hammerwrecker / Deris Of Clan Blackstar / Jodotha "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important" - Gary Gygax Utilities, Adventures & more @ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html - -----Original Message----- From: Kaviyd To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM Date: 08 March 1998 06:57 Subject: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? >I discovered earlier that it is already difficult to obtain copies of the D&D >Rules Cyclopedia. Now I am inquiring -- how difficult is it to get a copy of _Wrath of the Immortals_ ? The reason that I am asking is that I have some interesting ideas for adapting the Mystara setting to AD&D (or vice versa) -- but they depend rather heavily on the player having access to the WotI boxed set. >{SNIP} >So -- should I attempt to carry out this plan, or is WotI less accessible even than the D&D Rules Cyclopedia? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 10:08:41 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? In a message dated 98-03-08 01:57:01 EST, you write: << My real goal is this -- assuming that obtaining a copy of WotI is not a problem for most newbies to Mystara, I intend to set up a Web page giving some AD&D rules variants that should make it easy for somebody who has access to WotI and most AD&D rules supplements to run a Mystara campaign in a way that is not too seriously distorted from the way those of us who still play or remember D&D would handle it. >> I would be interested in what you are doing since I am running an AD&D Mystara campaign these days myself. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:07:41 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels << Thanks Khan. I wasn't sure about it. Still, why is it that certain German names use a capitalized von while others use a lower case one? Or is that just a fluke from to English translations? The reason I ask is that the variation is seen in many WW1 and WW2 reference materials. Sort of like spelling Goring also as Goering. >> I wasn't aware of this problem, but never mind. In the case of spelling of this fat evil Nazi the first is wrong. Let's stop this thread before Leroy is annoyed. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:54:26 EST From: Ambreville Subject: [MYSTARA] - Old Timers, Carl Sargent <> Thanks. I'd heard about that but never got confirmation (I didn't check FASA's projects). I'm still wondering if he moved to the US or stayed (returned to) the UK since he started doing work for FASA. Any other news? Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:28:24 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The MML Pages Has Been Updated! New Links Section! Mystarans, Took me awhile, but the MML homepage has been updated. The links section has been added, and includes some handy stuff, including links to sources for out-of-print stuff, online Dragon magazine articles, free stuff from TSR. Did you know you could download the entire Shadowelf Gazatteer, as well as the entire Savage Coast line for free? Check it out. Also included are the member sites that people have sent in. I NEED MORE! If you have a Mystara page, send me the URL so I can add it to the list. Ahhhh, come on, it will only take ya' a second... (See, you have reduced me to whining). The Member Directory has been updated. Come on, people, send in those entries! We have only a small portion of the list in the directory. At _least_ half would be nice. Also, the FAQ has been updated. There is a small section on technical stuff, indicating that attachments are not allowed, and neither are HTML posts (ewww!). The MML home page can be found at... http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html If you can't use frames, you can access it directly at... http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/mysthome.html ...though if you are using a large monitor some of the pages will like odd, since the pages were designed for frames. Not unreadable, though. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:29:32 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Get a Link to Your Mystara Page on the MML Home Page! Mystarans, Do you have a Mystara web page out there? If you do feel free to send the URL to the list Admin at one of the addresses below to have your page listed on the MML home page Mystara Links page. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:30:52 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Register With the MML Directory! Mystarans, Want others on the list to know more about you? Want them to be able to contact you more easily? Well, then, send in your entry for the MML Member Directory! The only required components are the first two: Name and E-Mail Address. The ones thereafter are all optional, merely suggestions. Add additonal material if you like (although the Admin reserves the right to edit for brevity and relavence. We don't need a four paragraph description of your dog, for example :) Please send all responses to me rather than the list (unless you really want to send it to the list, though we had a thread like this not too long ago). I encourage everyone to join! >>>>>>>Snip -- Send this part only<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Name: E-Mail: Home Page: Home City/State/Country: Year I Started Playing RPG's: Year I Started Playing Mystara: Current Mystara Projects I Am Working On: Other xD&D Settings I Play: Other RPG's I Play: Occupation: Year of Birth: Other Hobbies: General Comments: >>>>>>>Snip -- Send this part only<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #151 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, March 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 152 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - update thyatis map Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map Re: [MYSTARA] - update thyatis map Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? [MYSTARA] - Firearms and Realism Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Timers, Carl Sargent Re: [MYSTARA] - What did you do during WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map Re: [MYSTARA] - update thyatis map Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? [MYSTARA] - D&D Stat Scale in AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - What did you do during WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Firearms and Realism Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols Re: [MYSTARA] - An Adventure ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:54:43 EST From: Dleggend Subject: [MYSTARA] - update thyatis map For those who asked. I have improved the resolution on the thyatis map today. Unfortunately the size improved to about 200kb. Dleggend@aol.com get it at my page: http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ Enter Dleggend's Page *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:06:27 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map >I have scanned a hand drawn map of Thyatis that I made and I posted it on my >webpage. It makes a good player's map. >When I have time I will improve the map electronically and I will inform you >Ignore the one inch= 64 miles, I will fix that. Hey! While checking out your page for the map, the picture you have on the first page, the riddle page, of the skull-headed thingy, really caught my eye. Very cool. Did you do this? I would love to get my hands on a copy of it in a more useable format (i.e. full image, white background.) Is there any chance of getting this, if you did it, or of pointing out the source otherwise? For the record, it would simply be for personal use, not to put up on a page or to make money. Also, there is a small map of the Known World on your page (mystmap.jpg), which I have also seen on some other sites. Where could a person get this in a bigger format? Thanks! Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:29:00 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map I have scanned a hand drawn map of Thyatis that I made and I posted it on mmy >>webpage. It makes a good player's map. When I have time I will improve the map electronically and I will inform >you >>Ignore the one inch= 64 miles, I will fix that. >Hey! While checking out your page for the map, the picture you have on the first page, message. Dang it, that was not supposed to go to the list. [sigh] Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:28:33 -0000 From: "Alan Jones" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - update thyatis map Great map! Had to laugh though, for a moment I thought the arrows where the symbol for an airport! Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon / Thoria Hammerwrecker / Deris Of Clan Blackstar / Jodotha "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important" - Gary Gygax http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html - -----Original Message----- From: Dleggend To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM Date: 08 March 1998 19:10 Subject: [MYSTARA] - update thyatis map >For those who asked. >I have improved the resolution on the thyatis map today. Unfortunately the size improved to about 200kb. >Dleggend@aol.com >get it at my page: >http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ >Enter Dleggend's Page *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:57:28 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Mike Harvey wrote: >Maybe what's needed is a revised AC chart for unarmored characters: DEX 3 AC 10 >DEX 4-5 AC 9 >DEX 6-8 AC 8 >DEX 9-12 AC 7 >DEX 13-15 AC 6 >DEX 16-17 AC 5 >DEX 18 AC 4 In my campaign we used the 4d6 drop the lowest method. With the higher average stats I think i would lower (as in make the bonuses less) this a bit. But I definetly like the idea....Maybe it could be something that could be bought with creation points.....(for the few of us on the list who use AD&D and Players Options) steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:01:08 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >So -- should I attempt to carry out this plan, or is WotI less accessible even than the D&D Rules Cyclopedia? Well, there is a shop here (Fargo, ND) that has about 30 copies of it.... steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:01:39 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Firearms and Realism Alex295 meandered fecklessly... >Ah yet another reason why I disdain the use of firearms in Mystara. A hit by a >bullet does not go well with D&D HP. OK, but what weapon does? [attempts at realistic gun stuff snipped] First, I am all for people playing with rules that they and their players enjoy. This is not a condemnation. For me, though, I see no reason to try and make firearms any more realistic in xD&D than I do to make other weapons realistic. What about the damage of a two-handed sword wielded by a massive Northman? xD&D doesn't model this realisticly, either. I do use smokepowder firearms in my Mystara games, though I do so sparingly. They are rare items, which helps maintain the sense of discovery when the characters find one, or encounter a person wielding one. For stats I just assigned some dice for damage, made up some times for reloading, and some costs. Worked fine for all the other weapons in AD&D, and has worked fine for firearms. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:05:38 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Timers, Carl Sargent Ambreville meandered fecklessly... ><Don't know if he is still at it.>> >Thanks. I'd heard about that but never got confirmation (I didn't check FASA's >projects). I'm still wondering if he moved to the US or stayed (returned to) >the UK since he started doing work for FASA. Any other news? Nope, I don't know anything beyond that... It is too bad Carl didn't have a hand in the AD&D revision, like he did in the Greyhawk update. For a guy who wrote a supplement for a world which was already well developed, (GAZ13 the Shadowelves) he really seemed to have a grasp on the setting, and his work fit the feel of Mystara. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:11:34 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Dolan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What did you do during WotI? On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Alex295 wrote: >"Daddy...what did you do during the Great War?" asked the child playing so candidly in front of the hearth. >Since the Wrath of the Immortals draws so much attention, I was wondering what each of you did in your campaigns. Well, the first product that i bought was the Hollow World boxed set. The unfortunate thing about that is there is no informaion of the Known World in that set except a global map with no country names or anything. After i read through that and held a few adventures i started buying more products (aka Wrath of the Immortals, GAZ 1, and stuff like that) After i finnaly picked up enough history to know what was going on I set the campiagn during the final months of Wrath. The PC's had no direct involvement (they were in the hollow world yah know) but did experience the week without magic and then i ran the Millenian Scepter adventure. This sets them up nicely to run into the heldannic knights and explore that new floating Alphania. Some day when i kill them all off in one swoop i think i'm gonna go back and run the nightstorm series and after those PC's die. I'll run a Mystara Known World campaign proper set during the Wrath of the Immortals. steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:22:30 EST From: Dleggend Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis map In a message dated 98-03-08 14:15:52 EST, you write: << Hey! While checking out your page for the map, the picture you have on the first page, the riddle page, of the skull-headed thingy, really caught my eye. Very cool. Did you do this? I would love to get my hands on a copy of it in a more useable format (i.e. full image, white background.) Is there any chance of getting this, if you did it, or of pointing out the source otherwise? For the record, it would simply be for personal use, not to put up on a page or to make money. Also, there is a small map of the Known World on your page (mystmap.jpg), which I have also seen on some other sites. Where could a person get this in a bigger format? Thanks! No actually I got the skull picture from Hexen 2 game. I thought it was cool so I used it for my page. About the small mystara map, I too was looking for a bigger format. Sorry. Dleggend@aol.com Enter Dleggend's Page http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:48:52 EST From: Dleggend Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - update thyatis map In a message dated 98-03-08 14:41:20 EST, you write: << Great map! Had to laugh though, for a moment I thought the arrows where the symbol for an airport! >> Thanks That was funny. Attention! Flight 252 going to Karameikos from Thyatis is now boarding! People with children and/or halflings please board first. Dleggend@aol.com Enter Dleggend's Page http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Inconu wrote: ><< >Fine, but I run D&D and prefer a more complex view of what constitutes Good and Evil--one that allows for much more moral ambiguity. >> >could you please quote from a D&D sourcebook as to what a "more complex view" is? If i recall correctly, it was AD&D which came out with all the good/evil Could you please quote from one of my messages wherein I stated that the D&D rules contains a more complex view explicitly stated? I stated that I run D&D and prefer a more complex view of good and evil that permits for more moral ambiguity. I never stated that this view is explicated in the game rules--nor am I the sort of person who would turn to game rules to explicate the question of evil in the first place. >rules...not D&D. The rules are more in depth in AD&D i think. Could you please also state what is so bad about the AD&D definitions of good and evil? It's simple-minded, especially in how it imposes a single set of cultural norms. I prefer a modality where some things might be definitely evil, others definitely good, and many things actually a matter of cultural modality. Is it evil to exterminate beggars? If so, then is it not evil to let them starve and freeze? (I would say that neither are "good" acts, but I prefer the line to fuzz at the edges.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:31:53 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? In a message dated 98-03-08 03:40:50 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >I say go for it. I'm currently putting the Immortals in F&A format and tthat's going to be drawing heavily from TSR materials. I'd love to see your ideas about the conversion. My main idea was to replace the AD&D stat scale with that used in D&D -- and by a happy coincidence WotI gives the full scale from 1-100. With that change and a few minor adaptations of other AD&D material, you could make use of nearly any D&D material even if the only rules you have available are those for AD&D. So my goal is pretty much the reverse of yours -- although your work could render mine unnecessary if it gives sufficient detail about the Immortals. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:03:44 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - D&D Stat Scale in AD&D Kaviyd meandered fecklessly... >My main idea was to replace the AD&D stat scale with that used in D&D -- and by a happy coincidence WotI gives the full scale from 1-100. I just wanted to pipe up and say that this is what I do Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:02:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #152 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 55823c554de47131f5202a28f48cb98d in my heavily modifed version of AD&D, and it works well. I dropped exceptional Strength as well. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 17:58:37 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What did you do during WotI? Alex295 wrote: >Since the Wrath of the Immortals draws so much attention, I was wondering what each of you did in your campaigns. I know that everyone has not ran the WotI. I ignored it. The best defense for TSR's offense was to keep my cam- paigns in and around 1000 AC. I nearly fainted when I heard what had happened to Alfheim (not for love of Elves) and Alphatia (not for love of Mages, either.) And then I rightly concluded, "Good thing my campaign is only in 1001 AC." -- Stonelight *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 17:18:51 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Availability of WotI? At 04:31 PM 3/8/98 EST, you wrote: >My main idea was to replace the AD&D stat scale with that used in D&D -- and by a happy coincidence WotI gives the full scale from 1-100. With that change and a few minor adaptations of other AD&D material, you could make use of nearly any D&D material even if the only rules you have available are those for AD&D. So my goal is pretty much the reverse of yours -- although your work could render mine unnecessary if it gives sufficient detail about the Immortals. I'm not sure if my project will impact yours. I'm working on changing them to AD&D powers and will have very little (if any) rule information. It will mostly be the same information with a different format with only a few things updated. Just finished Ixion, so it shouldn't be too long before I can give an idea of the changes being made. _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 17:14:34 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Firearms and Realism At 01:01 PM 3/8/98 -0000, you wrote: >First, I am all for people playing with rules that they and their players enjoy. This is not a condemnation. FFor me, though, I see no reason to try and make firearms any more realistic in xD&D than I do to make other weapons realistic. What about the damage of a two-handed sword wielded by a massive Northman? xD&D doesn't model this realisticly, either. I know one reason why I can picture sword and arrow damage easier... I've never used those weapons or seen their damage effects. I've seen shows on the History Channel talking about the damage done by a sword but not on an actually human body. Now. I've seen gun damage and fired guns. Their damage is very real to me so their use in the game will always seem unreal. If anyone has seen Somewhere in Time with Christopher Reeve (another media example) where he's in the past and finds the penny from present day, that is the same effect firearms in fantasy have on me. It jars me completely out of the belief suspension. Just my personal veiw on why I don't care for them. _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:02:08 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Elves with beards? On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >Whats the opinion on elves with beards on ths list? Elves of Alfheim artwork seems to indicate that some elves may grow beards. However, this in contary to the general conception of Elves in standard fantasy. I have been considering using elves with beards just to make Mystara more different. What do the rest of you think? Well, as we all know, Mystaran elves are different :) Personally, I have no problem with elves having beards. That doesn't mean every elf out there should start growing a beard, but IMO the oldest elves may well have them. This may perhaps indicate some human ancestry (even if the elf doesn't like to admit it). I now have a Mystara webpage at GeoCities. Go check it out at the address in my sig. :) ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:14:04 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Name Jaggar von Drachenfels On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, DJ Sahlas wrote: >Those of you who have read "Elric at the End of Time" by Michael Moorcock may recall that some of the characters include "Jherek" Carnelian, "Brannart Morphail", and Lord "Jagged" of Canaria. I wonder what connection this story and these names have with the Princes of Glantri? Brannart and Morphail... a split personality? I guess they wouldn't like the idea :) ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:16:15 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Avengers On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: ><< IMC I consider Al-Kalim to be the *only* Immortal worshipped by Ylari. GGives them more style that way, makes them more unique, rather than being just another polytheistic country. I did, however, make a list of Immortals who were worshipped by Ylari before Al-Kalim, as well as their reactions to his takeover. >> >I think that they worship Protius while Al-Kalim is "the Prophet". Still not sure why Protius had to be AK's patron. IMO AK's philosophy of the Desert Garden fits someone like Ordana more. ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 11:01:23 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols At 10.21 28/02/98 EST, Inconu wrote: ><< But what is exactly an holy symbol? >I mean, each Immortal has his own symbol: a flaming wheel for Ixion, a book with a star on the cover for Rafiel, the silhouette of a Tree of Life for Ilsundal, a sword laid on anvil for Halav... How the Immortal's symbol relates to a holy symbol? >Do clerics of Ixion have medallions with a flaming wheel and use these to turn undead?>> >For clerics of Ixion....the sight of a flaming wheel could be seen as a sign from Ixion. For a holy symbol in material form...i think anything that shows a >sign of thier Immortal should count as a holy symbol...it might be extreme if they pull out a miniature wheel, douse it with oil, and set it aflame, but anything haveing to do with fire is a suitable holy symbol IMC for Ixion. However, it must always be the same. If one priest always makes a 3ft line of fire in front of him, and there isn't enough space...he can't use it. If one holds a flaming wheel...and loses it...they can't just find another way to display fire...they must posess a wheel to be set of fire. What if each temple has its own holy symbol, so that you may learn where a cleric comes from seeing his holy symbol? For example clerics of Ixion from Sundsvall may use a miniature wooden wheel (and set it aflame), while clerics of Ixion from Darokin may have a silver medallion of a flaming wheel. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:56:57 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols (was: Infravision) At 14.13 28/02/98 EST, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-28 09:52:27 EST, brizio@lunet.it writes: >>But what is exactly an holy symbol? >It would have to be an item specifically blessed and dedicated for the purpose -- the old movie trick of holding two candlesticks together to make a cross wouldn't cut it. But the magic required to make a holy symbol is within the means of low level Clerics, so holy symbols are not too difficult to obtain. IMO holy symbols are somehow linked to immortal's symbols and, since there're no Immortals who have a cross as symbol IIRC, that old movie trick won't work in Mystara. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 08:24:34 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy symbols At 11:01 AM 3/9/98 +0100, you wrote: >What if each temple has its own holy symbol, so that you may learn where a cleric comes from seeing his holy symbol? For example clerics of Ixion from Sundsvall may use a miniature wooden wheel (and set it aflame), while clerics of Ixion from Darokin may have a silver medallion of a flaming wheel. I've always thought that would be apparent by their dress. I don't know what all the different religious trappings are but some could wear hats, some only a single color, etc. _____________________________________ This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 16:09:05 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - An Adventure At 10:28 05-03-96 +0100, you wrote: >IMC I'm going to set an adventure in the forest of Canolbarth, now the wicked Aengmor. >The PCs are likely to enter "the forest dim" (as J. Keats would say) and, passing through the tunnels of the shadow elves, they will reach the ruins of a Ixion's Temple where there is, down in the crypts, a powerful artifact, etc etc ... >I will appreciate: >1. Any good idea or suggestion to help me creating the atmosphere of those places >(I read only the Net's "Shadow Elves Handbooks") A few inspiring words to expand on: The Wicked Aengmor: During day: Silent place, very few animals and no birds singing. the sky is grey and up there somewhere the sun is shining. Once in a while a small breeze rushes past, it is as if the forest is breathing, yet it is silent and dark. The ground is muddy covered in rotten plants and and every step in the muck releases a foul smelling gas (mostly harmless, but some plants may release a halucigenic (sp?), look up a few dangerous plants and change their descriptions to giant swamps and mushrooms, also if you got GAZ 10 there is a good description of giant mushrooms). During night: Very dark, only few stars can be seen. Small critters surface, their eyes glow in the dark, harmless but scary. The gases released from the dead vegetation glows in the dark. The mushrooms can be heard creaking, are some of them moving around? Otherwise silent as the day. >2. Any suggestion to add some creative encounters Ex-Canolbarth forest: Dangerous plants (change description to fit the new Canolbarth). Alfheim Avengers. Distrustful of any travelers. Bands of lost orcs. "Well, we fullowed dis cave und now we are 'ere, but where is 'ere?" They are more interested in getting out, than being hostile, you don't need to beat each and every orc you meet. A small Shadowelf village. Brave shadowelves trying to survive on the surface, they too are distrustful of strangers as they are often attacked by Alfheim Avengers and lost bands of orcs, but they can be warm and friendly, especially to those who can teach them tricks on how to survive on the surface (many alien animals and plants, how to deal with changing seasons and work with wood). A good chance to switch roles and portay the elves as the bad guys and the shadowelves as their victims. They might also posses some new spells for travelling underground that they might sell to the PCs. An old magic site, some of the magic points in Alfheim might be working still, but in a corrupted version, small gates opening at random letting out strange creatures (use the weirdest ones you otherwise never would have a chance to use). The Temple: Perhaps build by Schattenalfen (Aztec or Mayan style I think, maybe somebody remembers it better than I do). If it is far down it might be build in a small cavern all way round (imagine a ball with a city build on the inside (much like HW), so that the whole cavern is one big temple with all its towers pointing inward towards the center where a small sun floats. This sun may be the Artifact or maybe the artifact is tied somehow to the central tower and if it is removed then the sun disappears/collapses (and the whole cave might begin to collapse, PCs must flee or be crushed and they won't have any further chances to come back and plunder the site). Due to its strange design this place might have map and/or gate to Hollow World (and the only way out of the cave is through the HW), perhaps it was originally build by Ixion to keep an eye on the hollow world and register all that happened down there and he chose a faithful group of observers and placed them, but now it is deserted. Some catastrophe occured (Some of the observes got obsessed with a remnant of Blackmoor hidden away in a far away corner of HW, they made an expedition and gathered a lot of infomation which they used when they returned and it killed them all or perhaps the week without magic or Ixion perhaps needed his observers somewhere else and transported them there) and left the place empty, only defended by magical wardings, traps and constructs plus the natural dangers and those denizens who later moved into parts of this temple/city.. >3. A good site where to find informations related to my aim >4. Any other thing you would like to say Just a few suggestions from my side, hope they are of some use Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #152 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.